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10,800 | talk.politics.misc | re lincoln slavery re top ten tricks you can play on the american voter in article cb apr tamarack timbuk cb tamarack timbuk chris brewster writes craig depken writes the fact that the south had a number of slave owners is true but relatively small numbers around had more than a few hundred slaves i have to get references that i do not have here for exact numbers if it has any bearing on this discussion i saw a figure for the total number of slave owners as does anyone have a figure for how many slaves there were how many farmers without slaves chris brewster e mail address cb cray com in region total population free blacks slaves u s confederacy union slave states all union states union free states clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
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10,801 | talk.politics.misc | re the evidence in article bu edu kane buast bu edu hot young star writes bk so tell me what s immoral about homosexuality cc the promiscuity and fetishism that characterizes it hmmm i ve told you more than once that i ve been monogamous for almost years now and that i really don t get into fetishes then you are nearly the only homosexual who is i don t believe you you ve changed your story before yet you maintain my homosexual activity is still immoral care to elaborate for that matter explain why fetishes are immoral kane buast astro bu edu hot young star astronomy dept boston university the fact that your fetish is more important than who you are making love to actually in your case having sex with clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
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10,802 | talk.politics.misc | new study out on gay percentage from the santa rosa cal press democrat april p b male sex survey gay activity low a new natonal study on male sexual behavior the most thorough examination of american men s sexual practices published since the kinsey report more than four decades ago shows about percent of the men surveyed had engaged in homosexual sex and percent considered themselves exclusively homosexual the figures on homosexuality in the study released wednesday by the alan guttmacher institute are significantly lower than the percent figure that has been part of the conventional wisdom since it was published in the kinsey report the article also contains numbers on the number of sexual partners the median number of sexual partners for all men was compared to the table i have already posted from masters johnson and kolodny showing male homosexual partners it is apparent that homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general male population it s a shame that we don t have a breakdown for straight men vs gay bi men that would show even more dramatically how much more promiscuous gay bi men are clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
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10,803 | talk.politics.misc | re why not concentrate on child molesters in article apr lclark edu snodgras lclark edu bil snodgrass writes in article c g kw murdoch acc virginia edu gsh w fermi clas virginia edu greg hennessy writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes for a while homosexuals paid higher insurance rates than straights and with very good reason until the government made it illegal to do so well if we go by this philosophy how many children do you think we help pay for with our insurance premiums children who obviously cannot be afforded since the insurance companies have to pay for all of the prenatal and birthing what about the children born with horrible flaws who cost the system an arm and a leg to be kept alive we all pay because we are all part of this society and we should take care of one another oddly enough dependent coverage costs a bit more than for one self alone but if you really believe your claims you could make a lot of money starting the homosexuals health insurance co and refuse to insure breeders but i shudder to think what your premiums will be like bil snodgrass iii clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
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10,804 | talk.politics.misc | re the tories could win the lottery clinton gst in article c jy gk dscomsa desy de hallam zeus desy de writes in article apr news columbia edu gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes cmk world std com charles m kozierok writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes secondly any canadian who has worked and participates in the insurance it s a negative option you have to explicitly decline it knows that the premium is deducted separately yes and some americans actually have a problem with having more of their money taken from them to pay for others health care but note again the canadian and german health insurance is voluntary not true i am required to have insurance by law the method of collection effectively makes it a tax the selfish bastards that they are unfortunately that number has diminished recently but once president pinocchio gets through with us i hope for a reversal of trend well here we have the right hoping for more selfish bastards pity they don t look at what years of the regan bush selfish bastard ecconomy has done to the country elect a selfish bastard government and they will run the country for themselve s thats why they are selfish bastards bush and regan gave tax breaks for the ultra rich and paid for them by borrowing against the incomes of the middle class this country is hardly ruined in fact it is booming compared to after the election this whole usa has gone to hell and reagan bush caused it is not only lame pathetic and old it s wrong under reagan bush the economy grew by trillion dollars this is more than the entire economy of germany a kind gentle country in many peoples books what a joke ryan
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10,805 | talk.politics.misc | clinton press release on usia appointments the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april american university president joseph duffey named to head usia mica to chair board for international broadcasting washington d c president clinton today announced his intention to nominate american university president and former state department assistant secretary joseph duffey to be director of the united states information agency the president also designated daniel mica chairman of the board for international broadcasting joe duffey s expertise in the fields of education communications and foreign affairs is vast and will serve him well as he takes the helm at usia and works to promote the ideals of democracy and freedom abroad the president said president of american university in washington d c since duffey previously served nine years as chancellor and president of the university of massachusetts at amherst in he served as assistant secretary of state education and cultural affairs in the state department duffey served as chairman of the national endowment for the humanities under both presidents carter and reagan in and duffey served as a united states delegate to the general conference of the united nations educational scientific and cultural organization in duffey served as joint head of the u s delegation observing national elections in ethiopia usia which celebrates its th anniversary this year is an independent foreign affairs agency within the executive branch that explains and supports u s foreign policy and national security interests abroad through a wide range of information programs among the agency s programs are the fulbright academic program voice of america the worldnet satellite television system and a network of overseas libraries and cultural centers the agency has more than posts in more than countries more press release pg mica becomes chairman of the board for international broadcasting after serving as a member of the board since dan mica has done an excellent job on the board of international broadcasting and i expect he will continue as chairman to promote the cause of democracy abroad the president said biographical sketches of the appointees follow joseph duffey has served as president of american university since prior to his tenure at american duffey served as chancellor and president of the university of massachusetts at amherst and as a guest scholar at the brookings institution he served as chairman of the national endowment for the humanities from and as assistant secretary of state education and cultural affairs with the department of state in duffey holds honorary degrees from american colleges and universities in he was named commander of the order of the crown by the king of belgium and he has been a member of the council of foreign relations since duffey received a ba from marshall university in a bd from the andover newton theological school in a stm from yale university in and a ph d from the harvard seminary foundation in duffey is a member of the national business higher education forum and a founder and co chairman of the western massachusetts economic development conference duffey is married to anne wexler and has four sons daniel mica is a former u s representative from the th district of florida and has served on the board of international broadcasting since during his tenure in congress from he served on the house committee on foreign relations and was appointed by president reagan as the congressional representative to the united nations
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10,806 | talk.politics.misc | pro abortion feminist leader endorses trashing of free speech rights arrested for defying judge s order at abortion protest rally the miami herald april melbourne florida circuit judge robert mcgregor s order prohibits anti abortion pickets within feet of the property line of aware woman center for choice even across the street they may not display pictures of dead fetuses or sing or chant loud enough to be heard by patients inside the clinic the protesters say the ruling all but wiped out the first amendment to the constitution this is our sidewalk said joe carroll a landscaper who marched with his children mary grace and john i am not a rescuer i am not a trespasser it s just that this is my sidewalk i am not really protesting abortion we are protesting denial of our rights of assembly religion speech this judge is trashing the constitution the children s grandmother led them away sobbing as carroll and his father were arrested outside the clinic eleanor smeal president of the washington d c based feminist majority foundation called for the florida legislature and congress to pass laws as tough as the judge s order which covers only brevard and seminole counties this cannot go on she said this is not freedom of speech this is total psychological warfare with violence it is ridiculous to have to ask clinics to go court by court to get protection
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10,807 | talk.politics.misc | the defamation league the following was posted and no doubt retyped by yigal ahrens and considering the importance of the issue and the almost total blackout except in california i am reposting to other appropriates groups from la times friday april p a evidence of adl spy operation seized by police by richard c paddock times staff writer san francisco police on thursday served search warrants on the anti defamation league here and in los angeles seizing evidence of a nationwide intelligence network accused of keeping files on more than political groups newspapers and labor unions and as many as people describing the spy operation in great detail san francisco authorities simultaneously released voluminous documents telling how operatives of the anti defamation league searched through trash and infiltrated organizations to gather intelligence on arab american right wing and what they called pinko organizations representatives of the anti defamation league a well known organization in the u s jewish community dedicated to fighting anti semitism declined detailed comment thursday but denied breaking any laws police allege that the organization maintains undercover operatives to gather political intelligence in at least seven cities including los angeles and san francisco groups that were the focus of the spy operation span the political spectrum including such groups as the ku klux klan the white aryan resistance operation rescue greenpeace the national assn for the advancement of colored people the united farm workers and the jewish defense league also on the list were mills college the board of directors of san francisco public television station kqed and the san francisco bay guardian newspaper people who were subjects of the spy operation included former republican rep pete mccloskey jailed political extremist lyndon h larouche and los angeles times foreign correspondent scott kraft who is based in south africa authorities said much of the material collected by the groups was confidential information obtained illegally from law enforcement agencies they also alleged that data on some individuals and organizations was sold separately to the south african government in addition to allegations of obtaining confidential information from police the anti defamation league could face a total of felony counts for not properly reporting the employment of its chief west coast spy roy bullock according to the affidavit filed to justify the search warrant the anti defamation league disguised payments to bullock for more than years by funneling a week to beverly hills attorney bruce i hochman who then paid bullock according to the documents released in san francisco hochman a former president of the jewish federation council of greater los angeles and one of the state s leading tax attorneys will be out of the city until late next week and could not be reached for comment his office said until hochman a former u s prosecutor also was a member of a panel appointed by then sen pete wilson to secretly make initial recommendations on new federal judges in california hochman is a former regional president of the anti defamation league the league which initially cooperated with police has denied repeatedly that its intelligence gathering operation broke any laws league officials will not confirm or deny whether bullock was an employee and have said they simply traded information with police departments about people who might be involved in hate crimes but in an affidavit filed to obtain warrants for thursday s searches san francisco police alleged that adl employees were apparently less than truthful in providing information during an earlier search conducted without a warrant david lehrer executive director of the los angeles adl office said the organization has not violated the law there is nothing nefarious about how we operate or what we have done he said our record speaks for itself the police affidavit contends that lehrer had sole control of a secret fund used to pay for fact finding operations lehrer according to the documents signed checks from the account under the name l patterson an adl official said the account was used to pay for subscriptions to a wide variety of extremist publications that might balk at sending them directly to the anti defamation league bullock who has been collecting intelligence for the adl for nearly years defended his efforts during a lengthy interview with san francisco police he said that he gathered names from many sources and entered them into his computer under headings such as skins and pinkos but that did not necessarily mean that they were under surveillance i might never see or call up on of them again bullock said and it doesn t mean anything that they re in the files it s not a threat to anyone s civil rights that a name appears in my files under say pinko in recent years bullock worked closely with san francisco police officer tom gerard who fled to the phillippines last fall after he was questioned by the fbi in the case a former cia employee gerard supplied bullock with criminal records and department of motor vehicles information such as home addresses vehicle registration physical characteristics and drivers license photographs using files gathered for the anti defamation league gerard and bullock also provided information to the south african government receiving over four years the documents show the file on times staff writer kraft which was apparently sold to the south african government provides some insight into the hit and miss nature of the spy operation the file notes that kraft s articles appear frequently in the times and are well researched and written but little else about the file is accurate the brief entry confuses the times kraft with another scott kraft and provides the south african government with the wrong kraft s physical description photograph and other personal information nevertheless the documents provide illuminating details of how bullock for decades infiltrated all manner of organizations from skinheads to left wing radicals searching regularly through the trash of target groups using anti defamation league funds he also ran his own paid informants under code names such as scott and scumbag he worked closely with police officers up and down the coast exchanged information with the fbi and worked with federal agencies including the bureau of alcohol tobacco and firearms it was bullock s work as a paid informant for the fbi while spying on behalf of the anti defamation league and the south african government that proved his undoing the fbi learned that he was an agent of a foreign government and began investigating leading to the probe of the anti defamation league s intelligence network the anti defamation league employed undercover operatives to gather information in los angeles san francisco new york washington chicago st louis and atlanta according to the affidavit and investigators joining san francisco police in searching league offices and a los angeles bank were investigators from the office of san francisco dist atty arlo smith and the state franchise tax board the los angeles police department which earlier refused to cooperate with the investigation was informed of the searches in los angeles but not invited to participate investigators suspect that some confidential information in the anti defamation league files may have come from los angeles police officers from los angeles times saturday april p a adl vows to cooperate with spy investigation by richard c paddock times staff writer san francisco the anti defamation league defended its record as a civil rights group friday and said it will cooperate with authorities who are investigating whether the organization collected confidential police information on citizens and groups but san francisco dist atty arlo smith said that anti defamation league employees involved in intelligence gathering could face many felony counts of receiving confidential files eavesdropping tax violations and conspiracy police have accused the anti defamation league of not being truthful about its spying operations which collected information on more than individuals and political groups across the political spectrum hundreds of pages of documents released by prosecutors thursday show that the adl maintained a nationwide intelligence network and kept files on political figures even so smith suggested that if the anti defamation league shut down its spy operation prosecutors would take that into account when deciding what charges to file in a statement released in washington national director abraham h foxman described the adl as a jewish defense agency which has fought to protect all minorities from bigotry and discrimination for years foxman said the organization is regarded as a credible source on extremist groups and has a tradition of routinely providing information to police journalists academics government officials and the public it has never been the policy of the adl to obtain information illegally he said like other journalists in order to protect the confidentiality and physical safety of its sources adl will not comment on the nature or identity of any source of information foxman said the anti defamation league refused to acknowledge that one of its longtime employees roy bullock was anything more than a private individual who is alleged to be an adl informant among the documents released by prosecutors were detailed statements showing how the adl funneled weekly payments to bullock through beverly hills attorney bruce i hochman roy would penetrate organizations and needed this arrangement to be distanced from adl hochman told a san francisco police investigator hochman could not be reached friday at his home or office for comment despite the anti defamation league s assertion that it will cooperate with authorities san francisco police said the group did not turn over all pertinent documents during a voluntary search of the group s offices in los angeles and san francisco last fall a second round of searches thursday this time with search warrants produced a vast quantity of records primarily dealing with financial transactions smith said further searches may be necessary and it will be at least a month before any charges are filed he said the investigation of course will go wherever the facts lead us the district attorney said yigal arens usc isi tv made me do it arens isi edu js
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10,808 | talk.politics.misc | re af ats red army fraction raf communique as quoted from c assn by c cs ualberta ca merth eric william in article c vbm gs ncoast org cmort ncoast org christopher morton writes as quoted from c vctb j h dscomsa desy de by hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker isn t it wonderfull the way people can make the sadistic and indescriminate murder of the bader meinhof gang sound like altruism gee phil i d remember where you are and that these people are monitoring the net i d also remember that they have about as much sense of humor as ed damn it isn t big brother after all and all this time i thought that all those revolutionaries while blowing things up and killing the odd innocent person in the process really did love all us proles cause everybody knows that dialectical materialism will save you even if it has to get you killed first what a fool i ve been what you fail to see is that in order to make a nightmarish stew of psychosis and repression you have to break a few eggs you the evil productive elements in society are those eggs damn the spirit full speed ahead you re like a bunch of over educated new york jewish aclu lawyers fighting to eliminate school prayer from the public schools in arkansas holly silva
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10,809 | talk.politics.misc | clinton press briefing by george stephanopoulos the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april press briefing by george stephanopoulos the briefing room p m edt mr stephanopoulos good afternoon q could we do this on the lawn mr stephanopoulos that would be nice let s go out to the cherry blossoms we ll do like the president q is the stimulus package dead mr stephanopoulos absolutely not q can you tell us more about the dole talks you said it was a good visit but no compromise mr stephanopoulos yes the president had a good talk with senator dole last night i think that as we said before there were no specific compromises on either side although it was a very good discussion about the jobs package and about other issues as well as you know the president first called senator dole i believe tuesday night to talk about the russian aid package they did not speak senator dole called him back wednesday morning when the president was out instead he spoke with tony lake and at the close of that conversation indicated that he wanted to speak to the president about the jobs and stimulus package they finally talked about that yesterday afternoon at the close of that discussion they said that they would have another talk last night which they did when the senator was up in new hampshire and although there were no specific compromises made on either side they did say that they would continue to have some discussions and that s where we are q well who is giving in where is it standing are both making concessions mr stephanopoulos i don t know that it s at that phase no compromise has been made as the president has said consistently he intends to come forward with an adjusted package he believes in the package but he believes that if it s going to take adjustments to get the minority to release it he s willing to make those adjustments q on the subject of a vat mr stephanopoulos oh boy q can we stay on this for one more minute mr stephanopoulos sure q we have a problem with the five minutes q i know no decisions have been made but what would lead the health group to believe that a vat might be necessary mr stephanopoulos sorry andrea i m not going to go down that road no decisions have been made as the president said this morning a number of groups a number of members of congress a number of other organizations have recommended that this be looked at the working group is looking at it but no decisions have been made q to follow have they done that directly through him have labor and business groups been in touch with the president about it mr stephanopoulos not to my knowledge although there s a lot of people who have public decisions in support of the vat but the president has not made a decision q at the meetings that he s had with his own task force advisers have they discussed the funding issue and what the possible options would be mr stephanopoulos i don t think that that has been presented for a decision no q not for a decision but has it been discussed as an option mr stephanopoulos again there are a lot of levels of briefing i do not believe that the vat has been presented to the president as okay this is something for you to decide on q you re not saying he didn t know it was being considered though are you mr stephanopoulos no he said it s being considered q he knew that q but has he discussed that with his advisers that s what i m asking mr stephanopoulos the president has said it s being considered i do not know what level of discussion there has been over the vat it is something the working groups are looking at i don t even know that it s q but he didn t say he was considering did he at this stage mr stephanopoulos no he is not i think we re getting into something of a metaphysical debate right here what is considered q well he is the one who said i haven t reviewed it mr stephanopoulos that is true that is what i just repeated q george is there any concern here that as a result of the definite statement he made in february and the promise that if it were to be considered he d let us know and having it trickle out the way it did that there may now be the development of a credibility gap on this issue and others mr stephanopoulos i don t think so i mean it is now public knowledge that this is being considered q is he or you at all embarrassed about the absolute statements that were made from this platform to the effect that it was off the table and was not being considered and then to have it come out not from you people but mr stephanopoulos well wait a second it came out from the administration what are you talking about q what i m saying is though that the president said he would let us know mr stephanopoulos right q you people then said you said i believe that it s not going to be on the program mr stephanopoulos on march th q on march th mr stephanopoulos circumstances change q well i understand but we have to find that out by rooting around in the fine print of an interview mr stephanopoulos rooting around i know you did do a very good job there to read the usa today article but this is laughter the deputy director of the omb and the secretary of health and human services i mean that is common anytime you guys write a story that has an unattributed quote from somebody in the clinton administration the headline is i ll look at it right here and ap story clinton wants more money for spying q what about his remark that if it were being considered he d tell us about it mr stephanopoulos and the administration s concerned and he d let you know q and did he mr stephanopoulos yes absolutely what did he say this morning q it had to be dragged out of you here yesterday mr stephanopoulos it didn t have to be dragged out of me we had the deputy director of the omb we had the secretary of health of human services say it was being considered that is his administration that is his administration policy q were these authorized trial balloons or were they orchestrated leaks i mean what was the mr stephanopoulos they were asked questions they answered the questions q you re saying here that it didn t have to be dragged out that you more or less made it clear yesterday you were considering it mr stephanopoulos absolutely i was very clear painfully clear q was there a particular political strategy in making it clear the administration is considering a new tax increase on tax day mr stephanopoulos no it was just this issue is being considered they were asked if it was being considered they answered that it was being considered q george the new york times q why do it yesterday mr stephanopoulos they were asked q the new york times reports today that secretary reich and the chief economist at the labor department used apples and oranges numbers in order to portray last month s unemployment figures in a way that was supportive of the president s job stimulus bill but which turned out to be totally false mr stephanopoulos i don t know if it was totally false but i think laughter the chief economist at the labor department did grant that it was an inappropriate mixing and they say that q the question is is the president concerned about behavior that amounts to corrupting government data and what s he doing about it if so mr stephanopoulos the chief economist has said that a mistake was made it won t happen again and that s the end of the matter q isn t that the same information that goes to the president q if i could go back to the stimulus package mr stephanopoulos there s two separate pieces of information i think that s where the confusion was q when did you all first learn about this mistake that was made mr stephanopoulos i read the article this morning q and as far as you know is the president aware of it mr stephanopoulos i think so q and was he aware of it before he read about it in the new york times mr stephanopoulos i don t know not to my knowledge q did you ever hear about it before this morning anything mr stephanopoulos i didn t q wasn t the president given an erroneous spin on this for his own purpose for his speeches for his arguments mr stephanopoulos well again i m not sure both statements are true what the labor department has granted is that mixing them in one sentence essentially was misleading they said it was a mistake they said they wouldn t do it again q did they drop it is this something that you choose to spin or make an issue of mr stephanopoulos whenever fewer people are out of work we re gratified but that doesn t take away from the need to get this jobs package going q if i could go back to the stimulus package for a minute you said that the president plans to come forward with an amendment is the timetable still what it was that the amendment would be laid down on monday and voted on on tuesday or did he in the conversation with dole talk about the possibility of putting that off for a few more days to give more time for the discussion mr stephanopoulos i think at this point there s no changes in the schedule at all i don t know that they discussed the timing like that q do you believe that you re closer or getting closer this week than you were last week mr stephanopoulos again i believe that we re going to pass a jobs package the president is prepared to make adjustments in order to get that to happen i don t know where the votes are on cloture at this particular time i don t know what s going to happen until we have a vote but the president believes deeply in this jobs package and wants to get it done q has there been any indication that this situation has changed mr stephanopoulos we re going to continue to work on it we ll know when the votes are taken q george last week you said that there are or various people in the administration were saying that you couldn t go through dole you were going to have to try and go around him because he was immovable on this subject of a compromise or at least the compromise he wanted was not anything like the one that you could accept this week you re talking to him is that because you ve realized that the peeling off effort wasn t going to work mr stephanopoulos that s because senator dole wanted to talk to the president about the stimulus package q he initiated the conversation mr stephanopoulos yes q secretary reich this morning said that in fact the president is not willing to compromise on this bill at all you say he s making mr stephanopoulos i don t know that that s exactly what he said i think he said he didn t have any indication that there was any compromises yet or that there would be a compromise and the president doesn t want to compromise and the president doesn t want to compromise but if he has to make adjustments to get it through he will q officials here yesterday said that panetta was working on a series of adjustments that might be made public before the actual vote mr stephanopoulos it s possible q today mr stephanopoulos i m not sure exactly when that will happen but i think that it s very possible that we ll come forward with some sort of a different package or senate democrats will come forward with some sort of a different package in order to get it passed q as we understood his conversations with dole the first one was some discussion of this and i ll get back to you tonight with some details or some adjustments or whatever the phrase is did he offer him some details or some adjustments mr stephanopoulos i think it s a question of how detailed i mean i think they had a general discussion about the package last night subsequent to their conversation yesterday afternoon i believe that there will be follow up discussions today in the senate not necessarily between the president and senator dole and let me just reiterate neither side has made specific compromises at this date when we have something we ll let you know and i m not suggesting that senator dole has accepted anything that we ve talked about or that we ve offered anything in a hard way q what are the follow up discussions if not the president and dole mr stephanopoulos i think senator mitchell is going to talk to senator dole q is that a threat laughter q did the president say to senator dole all right how about this number as an overall size or did dole say to the president i can go as high as this did they talk numbers mr stephanopoulos i don t think it was a negotiation in that respect it was more of a discussion about their positions q did they discuss actual numbers mr stephanopoulos i m just not sure i know they talked about the basic outlines of the packages i think they talked about the programs they cared about i don t know if they got to the level of this many x billion dollars q does dole have to sign off before there is a package mr stephanopoulos no of course not q did the white house have anything to do with the protesters who showed up in new hampshire today where senator dole was speaking was that in any way organized by mr stephanopoulos not to my knowledge no q and has the president been in touch with senators kohl or feingold mr stephanopoulos i don t think he s talked to them no q george is the president considering the more palatable fact of having a national sales tax instead of having the haves having to continuously pay for the have nots and is he going to scrap his proposed tax on the privileged few with the haves having to pay for the have nots mr stephanopoulos the president believes deeply that the tax rates on upper income americans as he presented in his budget should go up and i think for the second half of your question i ll refer you to my briefing from yesterday q george on the subject of accuracy in information you suggested the other day that the stimulus package included money that would solve the water problem in milwaukee apparently that is not true it s actually waste water money mr stephanopoulos it s waste water money for wisconsin and some could go to milwaukee q but it would not affect the drinking water problem because it s waste water money right mr stephanopoulos it would affect the water treatment overall q but the implication from your statement the other day was that it would help fix this disease problem in milwaukee now would you agree that s not the case mr stephanopoulos i m not sure of the specifics i know that it goes to the overall water treatment in wisconsin q a leftover question from this morning which was when did the president find out that the task force was deliberating on a vat mr stephanopoulos i m not sure exactly when i just don t know i assume it came up over the last certainly between the time that we had commented on in the past and two days ago q so sometime since march th mr stephanopoulos i think that s right i don t know the exact date q george the president this morning mentioned that some labor and business groups are for the vat tax apparently the national association of manufacturers talks about perhaps the vat tax being okay if it replaces the btu tax so does the president feel that perhaps this might be in place of some other tax he s proposed or is this totally in addition to the other taxes he s already proposed mr stephanopoulos i think we ve said all we have to say about the vat at this point i mean there s just no this is being considered by the health care working groups and that is all the president hasn t made any further decisions beyond that q but it would be to finance health care it wouldn t be to replace some other tax that finances it wouldn t replace the income tax for instance mr stephanopoulos there have been no discussions on that q in terms of getting a vat tax through congress senator dole s press release today said vat on tax day do you think does it have a chance of getting through congress would it have a chance mr stephanopoulos i have no idea q is that a consideration whether you all put it forward mr stephanopoulos that would become a consideration if the president were to decide to do it it s not in consideration now q you said at the beginning of the briefing that circumstances had changed and that had caused the vat to now be under consideration mr stephanopoulos yes what the president referred to this morning these groups came forward and said this is something that has to be considered q those are the circumstances that have changed that s the only difference between now and when he emphatically ruled it out that groups have asked it to be considered mr stephanopoulos that s what he said q is that true mr stephanopoulos yes q was there in fact some understanding that sin taxes would not produce enough money for the health care benefits mr stephanopoulos i m not going to get into the deliberations q but george mr stephanopoulos no what the consideration is as the president said groups came forward and said this is something you ought to consider the working groups are looking at it q is that the only thing that s changed since his prior statement and your prior statement on the vat mr stephanopoulos yes q can you explain how those groups how that information got to him that groups wanted it was it just reading the newspaper or did groups make presentations mr stephanopoulos i think the groups as you know the health care task force has met with dozens of groups q but this is the president s knowledge that these groups had come forward mr stephanopoulos i think he was referring to what was coming to the working groups obviously there have also been published positions in the newspapers q have certain groups briefed him on the group s presentations to them mr stephanopoulos i don t know if they ve briefed him i mean how detailed the briefings have been i know that the working groups decided to look into this after being pressed by these groups q what kind of arguments did the groups make that were persuasive enough that the president would change the position that he had enunciated previously mr stephanopoulos i don t know it s just they ve had longstanding positions that this would be a good way to finance health care q the president wasn t aware of those longstanding positions mr stephanopoulos he may have been at some level obviously he s been a governor for a long time and he knows the basic arguments for and against a vat tax q what we re trying to figure out here you re telling us that the only change the only thing that affected this change in the president s attitude toward the vat between february and now mr stephanopoulos the president s attitude hasn t necessarily changed i mean he has not made a decision q i know but the president said that it was off the table so did you and you re saying that the only thing that s changed is the positions of these groups except you re also describing them as longstanding positions i don t see the change if these groups haven t had any change in their position that s been made to the president mr stephanopoulos well they ve made the presentations to the health care task force q there s no relationship at all between the fact that sin taxes that he had said suggested in february that he favored will not produce enough revenue to finance mr stephanopoulos i don t think he ever suggested that they would produce all the revenue q well he suggested that he thought that those were appropriate ways to finance health care mr stephanopoulos he did say that i don t know that he said anything to refute that q but in fact has the task force discovered that there wouldn t be enough revenue from those taxes to finance the kind of core benefits mr stephanopoulos again i don t think that the task force ever suggested that there would q george if he advocated a vat tax would that break his promise not to raise taxes on the middle class to pay for his programs mr stephanopoulos i can t comment on a hypothetical situation q but does that promise would that promise not to raise taxes on the middle class to pay for the programs prevent him from seeking a vat tax mr stephanopoulos the president has made no decisions on the vat tax when he does we ll tell you and we ll explain the implications then q which specific groups can you cite business labor or otherwise whose recommendations to the health care task force has prompted this consideration mr stephanopoulos i don t have the specific i just don t have that q george can you tell us to what extend these other alternatives for instance the employer tax or the sin taxes or other financing options are also still on the table and what these options are mr stephanopoulos no as members of the task force and representatives of the working groups have said they are looking at a wide variety of options i think that ira magaziner said that there are different options under consideration but i m not going to comment q what s the scope mr stephanopoulos i m just not going to comment on them no q what s the scope of the need how much are you talking about that has to be produced by one or a combination of the mr stephanopoulos that s what the health care task force is looking at q since there s not going to be any briefing on the miyazawa visit two questions one generally what does the president hope to use that meeting for but more specifically is his task complicated by the japanese anger over the vancouver note and the remark about market access at the press conference mr stephanopoulos the vancouver note q does no mean yes q yes and no mr stephanopoulos well i don t know i saw the prime minister s press conference where he was asked the question about that note and he gave a very gracious and complete answer when he was asked the question the questions of trade are something that certainly will be discussed between the prime minister and the president there is obviously a trade imbalance between japan and the u s that we want to do something about q also in those comments the prime minister made he suggested that the united states should come down heavy on him in terms of trade are you going to oblige mr stephanopoulos i think the president will state our views on trade very clearly and our views on the trade deficit very clearly i don t necessarily want to agree with your characterization of the prime minister s comments q that we need specific export targets specific numerical targets is that what he s going to discuss with miyazawa mr stephanopoulos they re going to have a broad discussion of a wide range of trade issues i don t want to get into those specifics until after the meeting q why q that s the crux of the issue right whether or not does the president believe that without specific numerical targets it is really as he said in his press conference sort of hopeless that this is going to change very much mr stephanopoulos the president believes that we must have pressure on japan to turn the trade imbalance around i do not want to get into the specifics of how that would be done q but does the president believe that their stimulus package announced yesterday will rectify the imbalance mr stephanopoulos i think first the president wants to get a full briefing on the stimulus package from prime minister miyazawa himself and then he ll make the comment on it q how about the russian aid package there seems to be some confusion about how the u s views that secretary christopher saying or bentsen saying the japanese may need to do more the japanese saying that that s not what they heard mr stephanopoulos again we re going to continue to work with all our allies in the g and we re going to continue to press for help for russian reform russian democratic reform and i think that so far we had a very good announcement out of tokyo and we re going to continue to work with our allies for bilateral packages q do you think the japanese need to do more mr stephanopoulos we re going to continue to work with all our allies to do as much as we can q secretary christopher was asked today on the today show this morning what he thought of margaret thatcher s comments on the bosnia policy and he said it s a rather emotional response mr stephanopoulos over an emotional issue q right to an emotional problem does the white house condone that kind of remark mr stephanopoulos i think that secretary christopher s remarks speaks for itself the president believes also that this is a deeply troubling situation that we re trying to find answers for q but that specific rather emotional response specific term mr stephanopoulos no it speaks for itself q in connection with that doesn t it seem that with the numbers of people who are being killed at this very moment is it good american policy to put off some decisions that might be made now to help boris yeltsin win a referendum mr stephanopoulos for example q to take stronger action to take military action air strikes anything that can be done mr stephanopoulos the president believes that what must be done now is to push harder for sanctions he is also as you know the administration has been discussing lifting the arms embargo he believes those are the appropriate ways to increase pressure at this time q what is your response to the critics who would say that the u s is now stymied by trying to help boris yeltsin retain the presidency mr stephanopoulos they re wrong we re pressing hard for the serbs to come to the negotiating table we re pressing hard for increased sanctions and we re talking to our allies about the arms embargo q you were putting great store in vance and owen getting people to agree to that now vance and owen have both said that military force to some extent would be acceptable does that change your thinking mr stephanopoulos clearly we re going to listen to whatever people who have put so much time into a situation have to say but at this point the president is moving forward on sanctions and talking about the arms embargo q a follow up on a dee dee comment this morning she said she would be able to provide some administration officials who could document the effect the sanctions are having in bosnia are you going to be able to do that or do you have anything mr stephanopoulos i don t think that s what she said q that s exactly what she said mr stephanopoulos i don t think that s true but what she said we would look into the situation of what kind of evidence can be provided in bosnia obviously if there are connections between the bosnian serbs and the serbs in belgrade and we are tightening the screws on the serbs in belgrade that will have an effect over time i do not know day by day minute by minute what kind of help is being given between the two and what the exact effect has been but clearly we are slowing the shipment of goods into belgrade we are having an effect on the serbs there what kind of effect that will eventually have on the bosnian serbs i don t know but one thing i would say is if it were having no effect at all i don t know why they d be fighting it so much q are the first lady s tax returns going to be released mr stephanopoulos i think there s a joint tax return and it will be probably later today q is the president considering signing an executive order banning discrimination against homosexuals in the federal work force as part of the gay rights march here next week mr stephanopoulos i don t think there s any proposal for that at this time not that i know of q it s something that the president promised during the campaign that he would do mr stephanopoulos i have not seen any i don t think it s anything that s on his plate right now q is he meeting with gay rights leaders at any point on this issue mr stephanopoulos i don t know about on this issue i assume that he ll meet with representatives of the gay and lesbian community sometime soon as he meets with representatives of lots of different groups and communities q do you know if that s scheduled mr stephanopoulos it s probably going to be tomorrow q probably going to be tomorrow laughter q it s a good thing you asked q who s probably going to be there laughter mr stephanopoulos i don t know q how long mr stephanopoulos i don t know that s all i know q do you know if it s at p m tomorrow laughter mr stephanopoulos i don t know what time it is i don t even know for sure if it s going to be tomorrow q environmental groups have asked him to make a major speech next week of some kind is that going to happen do you know mr stephanopoulos i don t know if they ve asked but i think the president has always planned as he did last year to give a speech on earth day and i expect that he will if it s not exactly on earth day it might be a day before or something like that q is he planning to sign or announce the signing of the biodiversity treaty in connection with earth day mr stephanopoulos again i don t know the specific timing of something like that but it s certainly something under discussion and something we ve been working on q campaign finance reform mr stephanopoulos we re working on it q do you think it will be next week mr stephanopoulos i m just not sure q the biodiversity treaty is something you re working on i missed the question mr stephanopoulos yes something we re working on he asked if it was ready to be signed and i said i didn t know anything about that but it s something we ve certainly been working on q do you know what organizations might be represented in this meeting with the gay and lesbian groups mr stephanopoulos i don t q do you know if he is going to reconsider being out of town on the day of the march mr stephanopoulos he s got to be at the senate meeting in jamestown and i believe he s also going to be giving a speech to the american association of newspaper publishers in boston on sunday as he did last year q would you have told us if she had not pressed you on the question mr stephanopoulos on what q on the gays mr stephanopoulos when we went through the president s schedule for the day certainly q george what day is the publisher s speech is that sunday mr stephanopoulos i think it s a sunday q and saturday he ll be in jamestown mr stephanopoulos yes q so you re just going to be in jamestown for one day mr stephanopoulos no i m not sure i don t know how long the senate thing goes it might go overnight i just don t know q you would have made the gay meeting public right mr stephanopoulos i m certain if we had the meeting i don t know about open to the press but we would have told you about it q i mean because it is as far as i can tell the first time in history a president has met in the oval office with mr stephanopoulos i didn t say it was going to be in the oval office laughter but i didn t i m not say that it s not but i didn t say that it was laughter q at the white house in the bush administration gay officials were invited to a bill signing ceremony and the white house had to repudiate having done that so i just wanted to make sure mr stephanopoulos well the president wouldn t do anything like that q certainly not q what marching orders did the president give to general vessey mr stephanopoulos they had a very good discussion for about half an hour today he wanted the most important thing was he had a full accounting for american pows and mias he will obviously look into the circumstances surrounding this new document the president stressed that he wanted the fullest possible accounting and said that only when we have that can we even consider any changes in our policy towards vietnam he ll be looking at vietnam s response to the questions raised by the document and he ll also look into investigations on discrepancy cases increased efforts on remains implementing trilateral investigations and access to military archives and ambassador toon also briefed the president on the activities of the joint commission and on the document q vietnam says it s a fake what is the dod analysis at this stage mr stephanopoulos it s not completed yet and it s also the first thing that general vessey will bring up with the vietnamese q a number of defense officials have been saying that they think that the or so prisoners referred to are in fact non americans that the vietnamese had captured who they referred to as americans from time to time do people mr stephanopoulos we don t have any final determination we re going to wait for the complete review when we have it we ll make a judgment q i know you don t have any final determination but given all of the intense public interest in this do you think that that s a likely possibility mr stephanopoulos i just don t want to characterize it in any way until the review is complete q george was there a topic scheduled for the speech in boston mr stephanopoulos no q is the president going to have a press conference tomorrow with miyazawa mr stephanopoulos i think so but i m not positive yes i expect yes q was toon in with vessey mr stephanopoulos yes q he was in on the meeting mr stephanopoulos yes q what was the question mr stephanopoulos was ambassador toon in with vessey and the answer is yes q do you have any response to the wall street journal report this morning the president s distressed about some of his press clippings and that perhaps he s distressed with you about that mr stephanopoulos no well i do have a response i think the article was highly misleading to the extent that it implied that the president has had restricted access to the press i would point out that he s answered questions on occasions more than any of his predecessors i would also point out it also q how many questions mr stephanopoulos three hundred fifty eight on occasions q how many were while he was jogging mr stephanopoulos well no that s actually a very good question andrea and i would point out further that the article also implied that these questions were only answered at tightly controlled photo opportunities which is just patently false he s had press conferences in either the east room the oval office or the roosevelt room or the briefing room in addition to questions taken at photo opportunities and that is only the q oval office press conference when was that mr stephanopoulos he s answered questions in the east room he s had five in the east room he s had one in the oval office he s had one in the rose garden he s had one or two in the roosevelt room and this is just to the white house washington press corps in addition to that he s had interviews with local television anchors he s met with the editorial board of the portland oregonian he s had an hour long interview with dan rather he s had interviews with local press from california florida and connecticut q can you address the question of the attitude the article implies that he doesn t q why doesn t he like us laughter q did you really get blamed for that post story q the story is that you are you held responsible for it mr stephanopoulos i don t think i m going to comment about this q are you denying that the president has shown displeasure publicly mr stephanopoulos i am not commenting on the discussions between the president and myself q did the president write that letter to chris webber mr stephanopoulos what q the letter to the university of michigan basketball player mr stephanopoulos oh yes q that is an authentic letter mr stephanopoulos yes q since the president first talked about the vat in february he said at the time that he thought there probably should be exceptions made in basic necessities such as food and clothing does he still hold that position given the impact it could have mr stephanopoulos again i just can t comment on a proposal he hasn t made q george does the president have some agenda for this meeting with the gay leaders tomorrow mr stephanopoulos well i think it will just a general meeting on the wide range of issues that they care about including aids and other issues civil rights q the military issue mr stephanopoulos i m certain it will come up q is he using this event to name the aids mr stephanopoulos i don t think so q george what specifically is the president doing to prepare for tomorrow s meeting with the prime minister miyazawa mr stephanopoulos he s had briefing memos he s had general discussions with members of the treasury department the trade representative and others q report yet mr stephanopoulos i don t know if he has the report referred to in the times but ambassador kantor was here to brief him today q he was mr stephanopoulos yes q does he intend to use any of these instances that mr stephanopoulos again i don t know that the report s been presented but obviously the president will press hard in any case where he thinks that a violation has occurred q in terms of the wall street journal the thrust was that there s a real schism here a hostility do you think he feels that way mr stephanopoulos not at all as i said on the record in the article i think the president likes reporters again i think that the thrust of the article was still misleading the thrust of the article was that in some way some attitude which the president may or may not have is affecting access when in fact he has the most open accessible administration than have any in recent history q can we come up to your office laughter mr stephanopoulos if you re invited the press thank you end p m edt
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10,810 | talk.politics.misc | drug use up at younger age the article that follows was taken from the wednesday april issue of usa today drug use up at younger age by mike snider p a drug use is on the rise among kids as young as eighth graders usually and they re using more lsd and inhalants like glue and air fresheners says a new survey the annual national high school senior survey on drug abuse finds statistically significant increases in eighth graders use of many drugs including marijuana cocaine crack lsd and inhalants we may be in danger of losing some hard won ground in reducing drug use as a new more naive generation of youngsters enters adolescence says lloyd johnston university of michigan chief researcher on the study sponsored by the department of health and human services but drug use among high school seniors is continuing a decade long decline the study of students shows the percentage who tried the following in the days before they were polled th graders alcohol cigarettes marijuana cocaine th graders alcohol cigarettes marijuana cocaine th graders alcohol cigarettes marijuana cocaine among th graders use of marijuana cocaine and inhalants declined over the year before not so with lsd of eighth graders have tried lsd in the last year up over use of lsd among seniors is at its highest point since tried it in the last year reducing drug use among students requires a different kind of strategy that health secretary donna shalala says will be part of an overall illness prevention plan the survey shows drugs are easier to get and fewer eighth graders disapprove of them it s scary shalala says dealers are focusing on younger more vulnerable kids scott kennedy brewer and patriot before david koresh is a cheap thug who interprets the bible through the barrel of a gun atf spokesman after the atf is a cheap thug who interprets the constitution through the barrel of a gun me
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10,811 | talk.politics.misc | we re winning the war on drugs not the dea and other organizations would have the american people believe that we are winning the war on drugs i m going to dispel the propaganda that the dea is putting out by showing you the drug war s real status to help prove my assertions i ve also posted two articles from usa today that clearly demonstrate that drug use among certain age groups is on the rise if wod is working as we re led to believe then drug abuse should have gone down substantially by now the reality is is that it has not gone down very much if anything substance abuse is on the rise i m also going to supply a possible solution to this problem the following text is an excerpt from an article about rock music and pot entitled hello again mary jane which appears in the current issue of time magazine april p law enforcement officials say pot advocates are just blowing smoke when they talk about the comeback of the weed perhaps because of the change of administrations the marijuana lobby is out in full force says robert bonner head of the drug enforcement administration the fact is they re losing the battle in more than of youths ages to said they smoked marijuana in that figure was and bonner says it is still falling bonner also offers a reminder that studies confirm such marijuana health risks as destruction of nerve cells in the brain and lung damage the chart that follows was taken from the wednesday april issue of usa today drug use up among u s eigth graders by mike snider p d adolescents choices drugs used by eighth graders in the last month estimated per students pct chg alcohol cigarettes marijuana amphetamines lsd cocaine crack source university of michigan institute for social research report we are not winning the war on drugs i think you can see that one of the tactics that the dea employs to give people the impression that the war on drugs is being won is to selectively quote statistics only statistics that support their contention that drug use has gone down the excerpt from time magazine that i included in this post is an excellent example of how organizations like the dea attempt to deceive the public usage of one particular drug may have gone down but at the same time usage of other drugs may have gone up a k a substitution also drug usage among one particular age group may have gone down but drug usage among another age group may have gone up therefore if one takes a look at the big picture taking into consideration all the statistics then it s obvious that the so called war on drugs is being lost perhaps the drug war is being won as far as illegal drugs go but if one factors in alcohol abuse smoking and use of inhalants then the magnitude of the drug problem in this country can then placed in its true perspective for those of you who don t consider alcohol to be a drug then try drinking a fifth of whiskey sometime and then come back and tell me that it s not a drug agencies like the dea only go after illegal drugs this is one of the reasons why the drug war is a fruitless attempt at preventing substance abuse people will merely switch to another drug if the one they were using becomes scarce or unpopular the solution to the drug abuse problem in this country may be to legalize some not all drugs whose toxicity has been shown to be within reasonable limits you won t drop dead after using it a few times and then couple this with a massive drug education program the reason why i think legalization is part of the solution is because people seem to be able to easily obtain drugs despite the government s efforts to the contrary the money spent on drug interdiction could be spent more effectively elsewhere e g drug education additionally legalization would reduce crime because the profit motive would be taken out of drug trafficking which often goes along with other kinds of crime not to mention the fact that addicts would have less reason to prey on innocent people for their money and posessions in order to support their expensive habit legalization would cause the street price of drugs to fall substantially so drugs would be much more affordable to addicts imho the way to reduce substance abuse is to do to drugs what has been done to smokers make drug use socially unacceptable rather than try to employ heavy handed law enforcement and punish people by incarcerating them as you already know people in the u s smoke a lot less than they used to this reduction in the number of smokers has been brought about by public awareness campaigns laws restricting where people can light up warning labels on cigarette packages taxation on tobacco in order to reduce consumption and so on i propose that similar methods be used to reduce substance abuse after legalization has been carried out they are as follows drugs being sold must come with clear concise information which states the possible health hazzards involved with using this product and recommendations on how the drug should be used things like dosage levels and how long the drug should be used ought to accompany the packaging the drug is contained in all drugs should be taxed at a rate that generates a lot of revenue but not so high as to encourage people to acquire drugs through illegal channels part of the revenue collected from drug taxes should be used to fund drug education and law enforcement make it a felony to sell drugs to minors people under the age of anyone can sell drugs but they must not dodge paying the taxes on drugs or sell drugs with the warning information absent failure to pay the appropiate taxes on drugs or omitting warning information should also be a felony establish a government agency whose job is to insure that the purity and safety of all drugs is as high as possible this agency would try to prevent people from getting a hold of bad drugs something that is a fairly serious problem now i m sure that many of the things i ve discussed in this article have been hashed out before in this newsgroup nevertheless i thought it was a good idea to give my two cents actually a buck and a half all at once so you could get a good idea of where i currently stand on wod go ahead and tear into my post i m sure there is something in it that you may wish to take a different view on or flame btw i posted the articles from usa today to not only help prove my assertions but also to provide information on lsd usage among youths something which i noticed some posters to this group were interested in scott kennedy brewer and patriot before david koresh is a cheap thug who interprets the bible through the barrel of a gun atf spokesman after the atf is a cheap thug who interprets the constitution through the barrel of a gun me
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10,812 | talk.politics.misc | drug use up among u s eighth graders the article that follows was taken from the wednesday april issue of usa today drug use up among u s eighth graders by mike snider p d a new national survey says drugs are easier to get more teens are using them and fewer deem drug use as risky for the last two years government officials have trumpeted results from the national high school survey as signs that the drug war is being won but this year officials are retreating drug use by eighth graders has risen according to the survey of students nationwide possible reason for the increase more experimentation why if drug use dropped during the s eventually some students will have fewer drug using contemporaries who act as examples of substance abuse s drawbacks says social psychologist lloyd johnston one of the survey authors each new wave of youths must be given the knowledge skills and motivation to resist using these drugs johnston says this type of resurgence is possible says eileen shiff author of experts advise parents delta but that s not the issue she says the prevalence of alcohol and drugs among teens today could result in more alcoholic adults decades from now aggravating the problem baby boomer parents who experimented with drugs and alcohol as teens trying to be friends not parents to their children i ve even seen parents serving kegs of beer to their underage kids and friends shiff says for a recent graduation shiff and other parents organized an all night lock in party where no booze or drugs were allowed we need to fulfill that parental role otherwise the peer group takes over she says officials may talk about the war on drugs but they really haven t done anything that i ve seen says suzanne linkous scottsdale ariz a volunteer who talks with teens about drugs dating and other issues on a peer counseling and suicide hot line linkous a member of usa today s teen panel says there s always going to be experimentation with drugs a real war on drugs could be waged education wise she says but some don t want to give kids the facts they think it will give them ideas it s the same with birth control i think you should give the kids the information or have it accessible through classes pamphlets and speakers she says education efforts need to start as soon as kids get in school in kindergarten says dallas owens teen panelist from miami shores fla i remember in kindergarten i used to see drugs i think kids in the th and th grades have already made up their minds about using drugs he says scare tactics in public service announcements aren t working only one commercial has gotten it right he says the commercial opens with two good looking girls in the restroom talking about having no prom date then they take a hit off a joint that hits home because it s not attractive he says you can t be doing drugs if you want somebody to like you adolescents choices drugs used by eighth graders in the last month estimated per students pct chg alcohol cigarettes marijuana amphetamines lsd cocaine crack source university of michigan institute for social research report scott kennedy brewer and patriot before david koresh is a cheap thug who interprets the bible through the barrel of a gun atf spokesman after the atf is a cheap thug who interprets the constitution through the barrel of a gun me
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10,813 | talk.politics.misc | re the manitoban candidate smith phoneme harvard edu steven smith writes bross sandbanks cosc brocku ca brian ross writes in the world of the future bill clinton will appoint canadians to govern all american institutions starting with the american health care system we will be benevolent canadian dictators with yet another tax being floated by the clinton administration to pay for new free social programs i ve really begun to suspect that the canadians long resentful of their place in the american shadow brainwashed an american draft dodger who fled to canada some time between and tutored him in the ways of canadian socialism awarded him with smokeless marijuana cigarettes when he got the correct answers then returned him to the states under the control of the domineering wife assigned to his case to attain high public office and destroy the evil individualistic and free market forces in america thus shaping america in the canadian image and not only that made a second clone from the same tissue sample after that of said domineering wife to run at the helm of the more pro business party under guise of more free trade and she did inhale many times to boot gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
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10,814 | talk.politics.misc | re how many homosexuals are there in article apr romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu theodore a kaldis writes perhaps but most likely not more than a new study discrediting kinsey says so yes i saw today in o clock news on kcbs here in san francisco this statistic quoted men had sex with another man cinsider themself homosexual i understand of course that because this statistic goes against common believe and not pc correct it must be complete bs thx vlad vladimir kuznetsov natural intelligence consulting vlad netcom com compuserve com vkuznetsov mci com
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10,815 | talk.politics.misc | re ca s pedophilia laws clayton my man you are a tad out of touch first gay comunities all over the country are in the process of excluding nambla from parades etc nobody from nambla is gonna get a job in a day care centre the same liberals you are upset about are also passing laws that make tough background checks for childcare people tell me how would you feel if your employer fired you for your antigay post on the internet would you be upset i ll bet you would be pissed to some your posts ight make the company look bad while your posts offend me i dont think it would be right for you to get fired over it i dont believe the gay comunity is asking for hiring quotas like the affirmative action laws of the s did my understanding is that the gay community just wants the same rights the srtraights have i dont think people should have their leases cancelled when their landlord finds out they are gay i dont think that when someone sees someone walk out of a gay business and then blabs it all over work that the gay person gets fired do you really think these are justified clayton i am told you are a parent a couple times over have you been following the strip in the paper for better or for worse i honestly want your opinion as a parent on the strip do you really care about your childeren as much as friends of mine tell me how much do you care about your childeren how much do you care about other people s childeren do you care about my childeren do you care about my sister s childeren if one of your kids told you he she was gay would you throw them out of your home in the middle of the night would you approve of your childeren driving down to san francisco to trow bottles at and beat up on gay people would you condone your childeren beating up on someone elses childeren i await your answers to these queastions please no flaming this is to be a civilised discussion from one father to another
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10,816 | talk.politics.misc | re how many homosexuals are there in article apr romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu theodore a kaldis writes perhaps but most likely not more than a new study discrediting kinsey says so wow does this mean out of homosexuals will be at the march on washington how very interesting cpk it s been days do you know where your wallet is slick willy s already got his hand in my pocket i m just afraid of what he might grab hold of
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10,817 | talk.politics.misc | re abolish selective service dave borden borden head cfa harvard edu wrote the selective service registration should be abolished to start with the draft is immoral whether you agree with that or not we don t have one now and military experts agree that the quality of the armed forces is superior with a volunteer army than with draftees finally the government has us on many lists in many computers the irs social security admistration and motor vehicle registries to name a few and it can find us if it needs to maintaining yet another list of people is an utter waste of money and time let s axe this whole department and reduce the deficit a little bit let me say this about that as a retired navy officer i agree cut it but let s not stop there eliminate the c transport overwight overdue overbudget it was supposed to carry tanks new tanks are now too big for the airplane scrap the seawolf ssn nuclear submarine the breakup of the ussr has left us with a number of sticky military problems but none of them will require god s gift to submarines ground the b stealth bomber i m sure it s a great airplane that will do everything its designers said but at half a gigabuck a copy we can t afford for even one to crash and airplanes do crash elmo zumwalt said it best years ago high low a mix of a few extremely capable weapons systems and a lot of cheaper moderate capability systems ken mitchell the powers not delegated to the united states by the kmitchel netcom com constitution nor prohibited by it to the states are citrus heights ca reserved to the states respectively or to the people
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10,818 | talk.politics.misc | re nc vs hunt marine gay bashing in wilmington nc verdict in article mattm mcmelmon apple com mattm apple com matthew melmon writes yeah yeah yeah anyway i was under the impression that the marines in question invited clinton down for the same treatment while a bar fight is a bar fight threatening the commander in chief seems a rather unprofessional thing for a professional soldier to do also it appears that two of the three marines have some sort of charges pending against them from another fight they were in a week before interesting frank frank r chloupek chloupek ohstpy mps ohio state edu department of physics the ohio state university not just any ohio state university there is only one hard and fast rule about the place to have a party somebody else s place p j o rourke
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10,819 | talk.politics.misc | re nc vs hunt marine gay bashing in wilmington nc verdict in article apr pony ingres com jab ingres com jeff bowles writes tfarrell lynx dac northeastern edu thomas farrell writes questions like what kind of sexual perversions do you participate in and you think he made a good case the arresting officer said the bastards told him they did it on purpose and hoped the victim would die and you think the defense made a good case no wonder we re losing we re aparently not trying to win the clip i saw was even worse than that the defense attorney was asking something like what have you done to serve your country as compared to these fine upstanding examples of patriotism i didn t see the response i don t think it was shown on tv i wish the response had been i vote i pay taxes i pay my salary i support the bill of rights unlike you counselor in my dreams now the real question is could this be a federal civil rights case since the state case was a sham sound like a well known los angeles trial probably not fags and dykes aren t protected for being fags and dykes under civil rights laws i would doubt any civil rights case would be in order for the point that you mentioned even if it were possible i think it is a bad idea since it smacks real strongly of double jeopardy a civil case for damages is fine since that is a trial that would proceed regardless of the first i think a bad precedent has already been set in the king trial in l a and something like this would make it worse regardless of how bad anybody feels about this decision it must stand that charges of assault were not not proven against the three marines and that s how it should stand frank who is still mad but now somewhat sane frank r chloupek chloupek ohstpy mps ohio state edu department of physics the ohio state university not just any ohio state university there is only one hard and fast rule about the place to have a party somebody else s place p j o rourke
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10,820 | talk.politics.misc | re clinton s immunization program in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu ryan c scharfy writes excuse me for sticking my nose in but any parent parents who do not allready immunize their children especially if it is already free don t deserve one frigging dime of tax money for health care for themselves or public health care service i know the immunization program and the coming national health care issue are slightly seperate issues but anybody who wouldn t help their kids don t deserve my tax help hmmmmm what about their kids cpk it s been days do you know where your wallet is slick willy s already got his hand in my pocket i m just afraid of what he might grab hold of
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10,821 | talk.politics.misc | re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes these two paragraphs are from two different posts in splicing them together it is not my intention to change steve s meaning or misrepresent him in any way i don t think i ve done so as noted in another thread limiting govt the problem libertarians face is insuring that the limited government they seek does not become the tool of private interests to pursue their own agenda it is a failure of libertarianism if the ideology does not provide any reasonable way to restrain such actions other than utopian dreams just as marxism fails to specify how pure communism is to be achieved and the state is to wither away libertarians frequently fail to show how weakening the power of the state will result in improvement in the human condition part of what started this was my earlier example of illinois usa requiring anyone doing more than x automobile transfers a year x i think to become licensed as a used car dealer in addition it requirs anyone with a used car dealer s license to own at least cars at a time all the time let me continue with this example and try to answer steve s questions steve let s say you have the talent and inclination to fix up and resell cars either you ve gotten good enough at it in your spare time to bump up against these limits or you would like to do it full time but these stupid arbitrary laws prevent you from starting out small and pulling yourself up so i m protected from a hungry neighborhood competitor willing to take a low profit while working extra hard to fulfill my needs and you re protected from doing what you want with your life here s what i see libertarianism offering you your money is truly yours it belongs to you you can use it to buy a car if you use it to buy a car it is truly your car it belongs to you you can use your money to fix up that car since it is your car you can sell that car your life is truly yours it belongs to you it matters not if someone thinks that it s wrong for you to buy and sell cars within months rather than say cars they may dissaprove but it is not their life or their money it is your life and your money my money is truly mine it belongs to me i can use it to buy a car perhaps your car perhaps that th car the one that someone somewhere dissaproves of you selling and presumably of me buying that someone could go to the government and insist that the government make us stop it but the government would be powerless to stop us from doing what we like with our own property in the abscence of fraud or agression and it would be powerless to stop us from associating with each other this does not seem to me to be a utopian dream but basic human decency and common sense a real grass roots example of freedom and liberty and yes not having a few people acting as our masters approving or rejecting each of our basic transactions with each other does strike me as a wonderful way to improve the human condition thanks awfully patrick
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10,822 | talk.politics.misc | re top ten signs that it s the age of aquarius on pennsylvania avenue in article ql tuinn j minerva cis yale edu chaudhary amar yale edu amar chaudhary writes here s my own top ten response to mr ipser s list it just so happens that that it takes money to make this country work to provide the services that people need and to help solve the problems that need to be solved granted some things can probably be done more efficiently for less money and should be but some things are going to cost more money and i m sick and tired of hearing everyone whining about taxes all the time you want to live in my country you pay your fair share some people pay shares that are more fair than others and will continue to do so even with the presence of president clinton until the rich elite hurt from taxes and shower me with their blood dripping from the wound of the tax dagger i will scream and yell because taxes are killing the poor and middle class and i m tired of the wealthy getting a free ride in this country sure they pay a lot of taxes but i want them to share my pain and not even slick willy is that fair is he seeing that he and his wife qualify as one of those wealthy people i was talking about they re on the lower end of wealthy but wealthy they are i can t believe what hypocrites people are when they ask people to give up their lives for their country and then complain about taxes if you re willing to send me off to die for some stupid obsession with fighting an enemy which at best doesn t affect us and at worst really should be our friend then you have no right to tell me you shouldn t pay taxes yah i think the draft for vietnam was a sack of shit but do we get to pick and choose which laws we obey mr chaudhary if so shall we set up a you follow the laws you like and i ll follow the laws i like arrangement hey i think the beaded curtains add a lovely s esque touch i never thought much of beaded curtains now beaded seat covers on the other hand health care is a human right deleted i didn t think i was going to respond to this but i changed my mind tell me why do you think health care is a human right this isn t a flame or anything i just wonder next thing you know free public transportation will be a human right maybe membership at prestigious health spas sorry to grease the hill on ya there make love not war be sure and wrap that wanker when you go spreadin that free love stuff around or after the fda gets its thumb out of its ass use that neat new reality femi condom contrary to popular belief it is possible to be a male and a feminist at the same time to discriminate against or to deny equal opportunity to a majority of the population is just plain wrong and trying to force them into some sort of tradition role is even worse women certainly have as much to offer this world as men and the day that gender discrimination is finally broken it going to make all the revolutions of the past few centuries seem like reform bills i look forward to it so do i amen and all that hey man acadamia rules what the hell is an acadamia anyway is that like a macadamia cpk it s been days do you know where your wallet is slick willy s already got his hand in my pocket i m just afraid of what he might grab hold of
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10,823 | talk.politics.misc | re national sales tax the movie in article aa inet gw pa dec com blh uiboise idbsu edu broward l horne writes purile babble deleted well some form of guaranteed health care isn t a bad idea but yah i m a bit worried of a gubnint run hmo myself i d much rather have something like canada has and i ll belt anyone who tells me to move to canada but since people will yell and scream no not one like canada has we re probably all screwed bromeister predicted per middle class taxpayer in new taxes a national sales tax impressive let the great chuckmeister make a couple predictions if you will the sun will rise tomorrow rush will bash clinton on his next show i will turn out to be clinton s love child chances are i ll get at least one of those right if i m lucky i may even get two now for more aammmaaaazzzzzziinnnnggggg predictions i the nst will be raised from to by ooops they already did it okay then the nst will be raised from to by can t argue with you there once the gubnint has its hands in yer pocket they just can t help but feel around a bit ii unemployment will rise oh no sh you mean our weakened economy will collapse in the face of all this gubnint tax and spending and everyone will be in the handout line you re a genius iii tax revenues will decline deficit will increase we ll get another deficit reduction package by everyone will dance and sing deficit reduction spending cuts via fee increases to paraphrase hilary clinton i will not raise taxes on the middle class to pay for my programs to paraphrase bill clinton i will not raise taxes on the middle class to pay for my programs no any first year polisci major will tell you that the prez never raises taxes congress does it all those who voted the clinton ticket get to wear this new label sucka made in usa hook line and sinker chuckle cpk it s been days do you know where your wallet is slick willy s already got his hand in my pocket i m just afraid of what he might grab hold of
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10,824 | talk.politics.misc | re the tories could win the lottery clinton gst in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu ryan c scharfy writes this country is hardly ruined in fact it is booming compared to after the election this whole usa has gone to hell and reagan bush caused it is not only lame pathetic and old it s wrong under reagan bush the economy grew by trillion dollars this is more than the entire economy of germany a kind gentle country in many peoples books what a joke drive down to cincinnati and take a look not pretty is it things were much better there in all that growth went into the hands of ron and georgie s pals and i didn t get a single dime of it dammit and now i m gonna be bled to death by tax leeches to pay for the damage f ing great oh here s another thing seems like a lot of people in columbus drive over to marysville and make japanese cars hm i wonder how many american owned companies employ those in central ohio other than ohio state university cpk it s been days do you know where your wallet is slick willy s already got his hand in my pocket i m just afraid of what he might grab hold of
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10,825 | talk.politics.misc | re pro abortion feminist leader endorses trashing of free speech rights do the words chilling effect stimulate impulses within that small collection of neurons you call a brain cpk it s been days do you know where your wallet is slick willy s already got his hand in my pocket i m just afraid of what he might grab hold of
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10,826 | talk.politics.misc | re foreign media reaction april part of phill hallam baker hallam dscomsa desy de wrote first off they could recognise iraqu s responsibility in initiating the iran iraq war providing technical assistance to iran to get it s oil production back up to capacity would also be a smart move at the moment iran is above it s opec ceiling if they had extra capacity they would use it and bring down the oild price further which is in our interests i agree with most of what phill says except the point about it being in our interests to bring down the oil price consider that both the u s and great britain have domestic sources to partly satisfy their energy needs pricy opec oil impacts both germany japan and many other industrial rivals more than these two in addition the proceeds from the sale especially by saudi arabia kuwait u a e etc are disproportionately reinvested in the u s and g b propping up these economies and further providing an incentive to keep prices from falling too low dan epstein
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10,827 | talk.politics.misc | re mr cramer s evidence in article philc hsii gft netcom com phil netcom com phil ronzone writes naw i think you are while both organizations may on paper support the abolition of the age of consent there the resemblance stops one supports the removal of a coercive law the other a paper facade to legitimize sexual relations with children i get it one organization wants to abolish age of consent laws whereas in contrast the other wants to abolish age of consent laws this makes it respectable to belong to one organization but not the other gene ward smith brahms gang iwr ruprecht karls university gsmith kalliope iwr uni heidelberg de
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10,828 | talk.politics.misc | representation of territories was re the lunch boyd turtle fisher com writes in article ws s b w w keys lonestar org cwinemil keys lonestar org chris winemiller writes btw is anyone besides myself peeved that non us citizens puerto ricans etc are very close to having full representation in the u s house of representatives sorry chris puerto ricans are us citizens ok i stand corrected i guess then that the comments about payoffs i e pork to puerto ricans that others have been making still stands now everybody how about some opinion on the following related topic should the people who are natives of u s territories have representation in the u s house of rep s or the u s congress the u s constitution sets up the house of representatives to represent each state in proportion to its population and the senate to represent each state equally what should be done with u s territories like puerto rico does anyone have knowledge about how this was handled in the past such as with the louisiana territory or the northwest territory chris chris winemiller internet cwinemil keys lonestar org uucp texsun letni keys cwinemil
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10,829 | talk.politics.misc | re new study out on gay percentage in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes from the santa rosa cal press democrat april p b male sex survey gay activity low a new natonal study on male sexual behavior the most thorough examination of american men s sexual practices published since the kinsey report more than four decades ago shows about percent of the men surveyed had engaged in homosexual sex and percent considered themselves exclusively homosexual the figures on homosexuality in the study released wednesday by the alan guttmacher institute are significantly lower than the percent figure that has been part of the conventional wisdom since it was published in the kinsey report so what it will be interesting to see the reaction when million queers gather in washington dc after all if there are only million of us then this is an event unprecidented in history the article also contains numbers on the number of sexual partners the median number of sexual partners for all men was don t forget that had or more partners compared to the table i have already posted from masters johnson and kolodny showing male homosexual partners it is apparent that homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general male population and what did this study show for number of sexual contacts for those who said they where homosexual or is that number to inconvient for you it s a shame that we don t have a breakdown for straight men vs gay bi men that would show even more dramatically how much more promiscuous gay bi men are fuck off join the pythagorean reform church repent of your evil irrational numbers and bean eating ways accept into your heart call the pythagorean reform church bbs at
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10,830 | talk.politics.misc | re mow bodycount spp zabriskie berkeley edu steve pope writes any thoughts on who is going to count all of the gorgeous bodies at the mow the press the white house staff the most junior senator the king of the motss bi just curious as to whose bias we are going to see when the numbers get brought out probably law enforcement people park service police and d c cops who will use aerial photographs and extrapolate based on the density of the crowd in small regions these sort of techniques derive from army intelligence and cia methods of estimating troop strength and tend to be methodologically skewed to always come up with inflated numbers so as to justify bigger budgets judging from past experience the march a peace and justice march the same year and different pro coice marches the park service will come out with an estimate that is approximately the estimate that organizers will come up with though the last choice march i went to had a sign in system and the numbers ended up closer and then you ve got the media types in their helicopters rolling dice i believe the mow plans and handing out some sort of wristband thingy and basing their count on those i see two problems with this one can they get everybody to take one and only one two they couldn t possibly have been able to choose a color design that won t clash with somebody s outfit bearpaw
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10,831 | talk.politics.misc | re sexual proposition sexual harassment this is a tesrt s
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10,832 | talk.politics.misc | re employment was re why not concentrate on child molesters sys exnet co uk xavier gallagher writes no i make a distinction between working for yourself to survive and paying dues to mother nature in the form of labour and working for joe propertyowner because you do not have the option of working for yourself joe propertyowner stands between you and the earth you work and expects you to pay him and mother nature for the right to survive the property laws create a layer of parasites that get fat on the fact that people have no option except to work in factories i want people to be able to get the things they need in life property ownership may not be ideal but it is far better at letting people get what they need to live a productive fulfulling life the first experiment in america where property ownership was denied caused starvation hunger and death few people know that the pilgrims originally tried to have common property to grow food and a common food store many people know the hardships they suffered the first few winters because of it after arriving the pilgrims made all property common they all shared in the work and the resulting crops went into a common store after much debate the new governor bradford privitized the land assigning plots to each family according to perry d westbrook the change was immediately justified by the increased industry of the inhabitants and by the larger acreage planted bradford himself acknowledged this failure of communism he wrote the experience that was had in this common course and condition tried sundry years and that amongst godly and sober men may well evince the vanity of that conceit of plato s and other ancients applauded by some of later times that the taking away of property and bringing in community into a commonwealth would make them happy and flourishing as if they were wiser than god for this community so far as it was was found to breed much confusion and discontent and retard much employment that would have been to their benefit and comfort bradford did not blame this failure on the strangers but on the basic selfishness in all men he wrote seeing all men have this corruption in them god in his wisdom saw another course fitter for them in other words according to westbrook bradford found private enterprise to be the most suitable economic policy for mankind in its fallen state let s not make the same mistake that the pilgrims made private property allows a society to flourish the alternative brings starvation poverty and discontent paul schmidt advocates for self government davy crockett chapter president judith drive johnson city tn uunet tijc pjs freedom seems to have unleashed the creative energies of the people and leads to ever higher levels of income and social progress u n report
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10,833 | talk.politics.misc | re abolish selective service kmitchel netcom com kenneth c mitchell writes dave borden borden head cfa harvard edu wrote the selective service registration should be abolished to start with the draft is immoral whether you agree with that or not we don t have one now and military experts agree that the quality of the armed forces is superior with a volunteer army than with draftees finally the government has us on many lists in many computers the irs social security admistration and motor vehicle registries to name a few and it can find us if it needs to maintaining yet another list of people is an utter waste of money and time let s axe this whole department and reduce the deficit a little bit i m really surprised clinton hasn t already tried to do this he seems to want to tackle other irrelevant issues first so why not this one as well let me say this about that as a retired navy officer i agree cut it but let s not stop there eliminate the c transport wrong we need its capability sure it has its problems very few airplanes haven t but getting rid of something we need is not the answer what do you want to do start over a rebuild a new airplane from scatch it ll have its problems as well and there will be calls again for it to be scrapped the other option is to try to extend the life of the c s and c s that are getting extremely old scrap the seawolf ssn nuclear submarine ground the b stealth bomber it ll cost jobs but i m for it we especially don t need a b the ssn i know litttle about fpa
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10,834 | talk.politics.misc | top ten ways slick willie could improve his standing with americans top ten ways slick willie could improve his standing with americans institute a national sales tax to pay for the socialization of america s health care resources declare war on serbia reenact the draft stimulate the economy with massive income transfers to democtratic constituencies appoint an unrepetent socialist like mario cuomo to the suprmeme court focus like a laser beam on gays in the military put hillary in charge of the ministry of truth and move stephanopoulos over to socialzed health care balance the budget through confiscatory taxation remind everyone again how despite the democrats holding the presidency the majority of seats in the house and in the senate the republicans have still managed to block his tax and spend programs go back to england and get a refresher course in european socialism resign now copyright c edward a ipser jr be sure to look for slick willie s first very own book of top ten lists available soon in paperback
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10,835 | talk.politics.misc | re the role of the national news media in inflaming passions in article c iak zh murdoch acc virginia edu gsh w fermi clas virginia edu greg hennessy writes clayton cramer but what came out in much lower profile reporting was that the victim was a prostitute and the man had not paid her hence the false accusation there was no evidence the woman in question was a prostitute the defense merely alledged that she was the fact that she was wearing a miniskirt with no underwear was presented as evidence that she was a prostitute and the court apparently found this compelling even clayton knows the difference err perhaps clayton doesn t know the difference clayton does indeed know the difference greg apparently doesn t the judge found that there was some credible evidence that the marines were engaged in self defense no the judge found that the prosecution did not carry out the burder on proof because the judge found that there was some credible evidence that the marines were engaged in self defense got it knucklehead a small clipping from clarinews under fair use guidelines new hanover district court judge jacqueline morris goodson ruled in the benchtrial that the state failed to carry its burden in proving the marines acted to cause injury because in part repeat after me the judge found that there was some credible evidence that the marines were engaged in self defense hopefully one of these days you will understand interesting that in of the cases clayton does what he accuses others of doing with respect to credibility i would rate clayton cramer an order of magnitude higher than a the news media and b homosexuals but i never thought clayton was consistent clayton is indeed consistent and so are you the views expressed herein are theodore a kaldis my own only do you seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe that a major university rutgers remus rutgers edu kaldis as this would hold such views
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10,836 | talk.politics.misc | re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article c kh g cbnewse cb att com doctor cbnewse cb att com patrick b hailey writes in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes these two paragraphs are from two different posts in splicing them together it is not my intention to change steve s meaning or misrepresent him in any way i don t think i ve done so as noted in another thread limiting govt the problem libertarians face is insuring that the limited government they seek does not become the tool of private interests to pursue their own agenda it is a failure of libertarianism if the ideology does not provide any reasonable way to restrain such actions other than utopian dreams just as marxism fails to specify how pure communism is to be achieved and the state is to wither away libertarians frequently fail to show how weakening the power of the state will result in improvement in the human condition patrick s example of anti competitive regulations for auto dealers deleted here s what i see libertarianism offering you this does not seem to me to be a utopian dream but basic human decency and common sense a real grass roots example of freedom and liberty and yes not having a few people acting as our masters approving or rejecting each of our basic transactions with each other does strike me as a wonderful way to improve the human condition thanks awfully patrick let me try to drag this discussion back to the original issues as i ve noted before i m not necessarily disputing the benefits of eliminating anti competitive legislation with regard to auto dealers barbers etc one need not however swallow the entire libertarian agenda to accomplish this end just because one grants the benefits of allowing anyone who wishes to cut hair to sell his her services without regulation does not mean that the same unregulated barbers should be free to bleed people as a medical service without government intervention as some many libertarians would argue on a case by case basis the cost benefit ratio of government regulation is obviously worthwhile the libertarian agenda however does not call for this assessment it assumes that the costs of regulation of any kind always outweigh its benefits this approach avoids all sorts of difficult analysis but it strikes many of the rest of us as dogmatic to say the least i have no objection to an analysis of medical care education national defense or local police that suggests a free market can provide a more effective efficient means of accomplishing social objectives than is provided through statist approaches with some notable exceptions however i do not see such nitty gritty worthwhile analysis being carried out by self professed libertarians jsh steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls t r hofferbert ma bell
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10,837 | talk.politics.misc | re new study out on gay percentage in article c k lc cyf murdoch acc virginia edu lfoard hopper virginia edu lawrence c foard writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes from the santa rosa cal press democrat april p b male sex survey gay activity low a new natonal study on male sexual behavior the most thorough examination of american men s sexual practices published since the kinsey report more than four decades ago shows about percent of the men surveyed had engaged in homosexual sex and percent considered themselves exclusively homosexual the figures on homosexuality in the study released wednesday by the alan guttmacher institute are significantly lower than the percent figure that has been part of the conventional wisdom since it was published in the kinsey report so what homosexuals lie about the number to hide the disproportionate involvement of homosexuals in child molestation they also lie about to keep politicians scared it will be interesting to see the reaction when million queers gather in washington dc after all if there are only million of us then this is an event unprecidented in history but many of the people who will be marching aren t homosexuals but other members of the leftist agenda the article also contains numbers on the number of sexual partners the median number of sexual partners for all men was don t forget that had or more partners not surprising remember that study includes homosexuals as well compared to the table i have already posted from masters johnson and kolodny showing male homosexual partners it is apparent that homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general male population and what did this study show for number of sexual contacts for those who said they where homosexual or is that number to inconvient for you it wasn t published it s a shame that we don t have a breakdown for straight men vs gay bi men that would show even more dramatically how much more promiscuous gay bi men are fuck off typical homoseuxal response clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
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10,838 | talk.politics.misc | re new study out on gay percentage in article c l v jcv news cso uiuc edu dans uxa cso uiuc edu dan s writes don t forget about the culture sadly we don t as a society look upon homosexuality as normal and as we are all too well aware there are alot of people who condemn it as a result the gay population is not encouraged to develop non promiscuous relationships in fact there are many roadblocks put in the way of such committed relationships it is as if the heterosexual such as not being able to get married isn t a roadblock to a permanent relationship lack of a marriage certificate doesn t force a couple to break up this is an excuse used by homosexuals because the alternative is to ask why they are so much more promiscuous than straights dan clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
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10,839 | talk.politics.misc | re new study out on gay percentage in article apr galileo cc rochester edu as b uhura cc rochester edu tree of schnopia writes in optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes the article also contains numbers on the number of sexual partners the median number of sexual partners for all men was compared to the table i have already posted from masters johnson and kolodny showing male homosexual partners it is apparent that homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general male population it s a shame that we don t have a breakdown for straight men vs gay bi men that would show even more dramatically how much more promiscuous gay bi men are possibly because gay bi men are less likely to get married marriage isn t a requirement for a couple staying together what was the purpose of this post if it was to show a mindless obsession with statistics an incredibly flawed system of reasoning and a repellent hatemonger agenda then the purpose was accomplished with panache a get a clue b get a life c get out of my face i m not in yours bi andrew d simchik schnopia yes you are when you and the rest of the homosexual community pass laws to impose your moral codes on me by requiring me to hire rent to or otherwise associate with a homosexual against my will yes you are in my face until homosexuals stop trying to impose their morals on me i will be in your face about this clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
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10,840 | talk.politics.misc | re the role of the national news media in inflaming passions in article c l apu murdoch acc virginia edu gsh w fermi clas virginia edu greg hennessy writes kaldis writes the fact that she was wearing a miniskirt with no underwear was presented as evidence that she was a prostitute and the court apparently found this compelling ah i know women who wear miniskirts without wearing underwear and they are not prostitutes do they have a history of working in massage parlors and telling co workers there that they are prostitutes do they frequent truck stop parking lots at am without id on any sort greg hennessy university of virginia clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
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10,841 | talk.politics.misc | re new study out on gay percentage in article apr news cs brandeis edu st pip cc brandeis edu blort eeeep hwaaah writes actually i was rather surprised to see an article on this subject i e the new inproved survey saying that roughly of men are gay on the front page of the new york times recently i think it was on thurs april the headline was something to the effect of new survey finds of men are gay i was shocked not because the new york times was running a story on a sex survey although that was part of it but because they thought that this news was actually important enough to warrant front page space i mean how many people actually care how many people are gay as long as you know how to find avoid them if you want to i don t if you don t care why was so much effort put into promoting the lie because it was important to scare politicians into obedience matt clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
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10,842 | talk.politics.misc | re clinton president s trip to pittsburg sic in article ql bginnklu life ai mit edu clinton hq campaign org clinton gore writes statement by the press secretary the president will travel to pittsburgh on saturday april to talk about his job creation plan and its impact on the state of pennsylvania where it would create as many as would ha haaaa haa ha haaa how the hell can they come up with a number specified to the units column on something as complicated as this face it it s the perceptions that matter here folks not the facts especially this one full time jobs and up to summer jobs he will make a according to the pittsburgh post gazette that means over new jobs for allegheny county metro pgh alone haaaa haaa ha ha haaa heh heh haaaa snif doing what i hope it s fixing the potholes on my street let s face it folks we re in a depression and this is the wpa clinton s really coming here to beat on sen arlen specter who happens to be vacationing in africa don t know whether to laugh or cry casimir j casey palowitch in there will be two kinds slavic cataloger of computer professional those u of pgh library systems who know nextstep and those cjp pitt edu without jobs
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10,843 | talk.politics.misc | re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu ryan c scharfy writes in article stevethc jgcr ht netcom com steveth netcom com steve thomas wri tes just try to justify the war on drugs i dare you a friend of mine who smoke pot every day and last tuesday took hits of acid is still having trouble aiming for the bowl when he takes a dump don t as me how i just have seen the results boy i really wish we we cut the drug war and have more people screwed up in the head i m sorry about your friend really but this anecdote does nothing to justify the war on drugs if anything it demonstrates that the war is a miserable failure what it demonstrates is that people will take drugs if they want to legal or not perhaps if your friend were taking legal regulated drugs under a doctors supervision he might not be in the position he s in now dale cook any town having more churches than bars has a serious social problem edward abbey the opinions are mine only i e they are not my employer s
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10,844 | talk.politics.misc | re new study out on gay percentage the article also contains numbers on the number of sexual partners the median number of sexual partners for all men was compared to the table i have already posted from masters johnson and kolodny showing male homosexual partners it is apparent that homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general male population it s a shame that we don t have a breakdown for straight men vs gay bi men that would show even more dramatically how much more promiscuous gay bi men are isn t is funny how someone who seems to know nothing about homosexuality uses a very flawed imho source of information to pass jusgement on all homosexual and bisexual men it would seem more logical to say that since the heterosexual group of men is larger then the chances of promiscuity larger as well in my opinion orientation has nothing to do with it men are men and they all like sex i am a gay male i have had sex three times in my life all with the same man before that i was a virgin so whose promiscuous just because someone is gay doesn t mean they have no morals just because someone is heterosexual doesn t mean they do look at the world statistics alone prove that most criminals are by default hetero look closely at the person not the group all flames will be ignored later brian stone unt cas tech support life without your touch is hard but life without you in unthinkable brian gab unt edu
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10,845 | talk.politics.misc | re the manitoban candidate in a previous article smith phoneme harvard edu steven smith says with yet another tax being floated by the clinton administration to pay for new free social programs i ve really begun to suspect that the canadians long resentful of their place in the american shadow brainwashed an american draft dodger who fled to canada some hey he has been talking with mulroney a lot huh
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10,846 | talk.politics.misc | only month ahhh remember the days of yesterday when we were only going to pay month when only of the population would pay extra taxes remember when a few of us predicted that it wasn t true remember the inaugural dancing and singing liberation at last well figure this out vat estimated to raise billion per year on cnn work it out chum taxpayers year but you exclaim i ll get free health care but i exclaim no you won t this is only for that poor million who have none not for you chum that comes later add in the estimates of the energy tax costs year plus all that extra corporate and rich taxes that will trickle down and what do you have year just like i said two months ago and the best part you don t get anything for it deficit is still projected to rise at same rate it s been rising at by clinton s own estimates and this assumes that his plan will work i mean come on it doesn t take a rocket scientist to see that in another or years we re getting another whopping tax increase because the deficit will still be growing faster than the economy all clinton is doing is moving us to a higher diving board face it clinton is bush x in four more years our country will be completely bankrupt and your children s future so oft mentioned by pal bill will be gone and those of you still deluding yourselves will be faced with the guilt well glancing at watch gotta go i want to be out of here by noon got an appointment at the lake no tax there yet
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10,847 | talk.politics.misc | re will italy be the next domino to fall note cross posted to alt politics italy and talk politics misc this is a reply to an article by ed ipser which also appeared in alt politics usa misc and alt politics libertarian but no longer belongs i hate to defend ed the article was very poorly written but here goes hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes ed should take a look at the budget deficit regan and bush created together before he starts to make claims about europe collapsing based on the budget deficits here none of them are serious on the usa scale italy s per capita debt is much higher than usa s we do not want our countries to be run by a narrow elite of rich lawyers for the benefit of the super wealthy this is exactly what the public in france italy perceive to be the problem thus the french election and italian pulizia regarding the post pulizia italy what looks likely to happen is the fringe parties are going to do much better in the next election most of the parliamentary deputies are going to get replaced and the parties are going to be forced to look to people who are free of any hint of corruption look out for a parliament of pavarotti s and porn stars wrong this is true perhaps only for the lega nord the referendum sunday is expected to establish a british american style first past the post system in the senate if implemented it would encourage a two or perhaps three party system in italy most likely the dc and psi will not be these parties rather there will be a shakeup of the entire party structure from which new parties will emerge to dominate will lega nord be one of these who knows the camera dei deputati lower house will likely remain with proportional representation for a while but there is talk of switching a portion of that house too maybe as much as first past the post overall the electoral reform in italy is a welcome change italians are tired of having crappy government porn stars pavarotti s and hunters fishers won t gain seats because pr is dead a good two party system will bring italy efficient accountable government it s about time jeff hagen hagenjd ac wfu edu
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10,848 | talk.politics.misc | re national sales tax the movie in a previous article ckincy cs umr edu charles kincy says let the great chuckmeister make a couple predictions if you will the sun will rise tomorrow rush will bash clinton on his next show i will turn out to be clinton s love child hey i wasn t the one dancing and singing on jan now was i i was roundly ridiculed for my predictions sure they were easy tell that to the other of the people sucka made in usa hook line and sinker chuckle just wait until the see what clinton has planned for their pension funds this one doesn t take much thinking either uncle sam needs money bad and pension funds got it well they used to have it turns out the states have been plundering state employee funds for the past years ah it s gonna be swell
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10,849 | talk.politics.misc | re top ten excuses for slick willie s record setting disapproval rati in article qkl i bj usenet ins cwru edu an cleveland freenet edu broward horne says in a previous article mbs psuvm psu edu mark mark sachs says in article qhr a d usenet ins cwru edu an cleveland freenet edu broward horne says it sure does appear that way doesn t it the attitude that people are stupid if they don t agree with you is not going to bring you great success in life free advice there whew mark what on earth makes you think i give a fuck about being a success particularly now when i ll just the hell taxed out of me oh this is excellent that was hardly the point was it i was commenting on this all too common republican attitude that if people disagree with us they must be idiots they must be sheep being led around by the evil liberal media conspiracy this is a dangerous attitude indeed because it s not a very big step from people are sheep they can t think for themselves to people are sheep and need firm leadership from we who know better this sort of attitude makes me worry about what ll happen to the united states if the extremist wing of the republican party ever gets back into power again holy christ hey this is a government funded newsgroup let s have some separation of church and state damn it besides let s ahem examine the record shall we broward clinton s going to taxe the holy fuck out of you mark no he s not only month i still get a laugh out of this one more like broward clinton s going to raise your income taxes by over mark no he s not only about broward silence want some more free predictions ok i predict that in the republicans will still be bitter yeah yeah i know it s not very impressive to predict things that are inevitable so i propose that we destroy the moon neatly solving that problem your blood pressure just went up mark sachs is mbs psuvm psu edu disclaimer if psu knew i had opinions they d try to charge me for them
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10,850 | talk.politics.misc | re clayton need not retract in article apr romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu theodore a kaldis writes civilized society the only way a homosexual can maintain even a modicum of respectability is by remaining in the closet the views expressed herein are theodore a kaldis my own only do you seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe that a major university rutgers remus rutgers edu kaldis as this would hold such views once again it appears that the one eyed man has appeared in the land of the sighted and for some strange resaon has appointed himself the ruler and supreme power joe cipale
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10,851 | talk.politics.misc | re top ten excuses for slick willie s record setting disapproval rati in article emoryu cc emory edu libwca emory edu bill anderson writes shapiro sofbas enet dec com steve shapiro writes oh and btw its william jefferson blythe clinton regards steve no it s not and i really fail to understand the use of that name as an insult do you feel that being adopted implies some sort of moral failing yes it is you could look it up and spare us the thin skinned indignation please what s sauce for four years of using george herbert walker bush and j danforth quayle as an insult is sauce for william jefferson blythe clinton do you feel that calling a president by his full name implies some sort of disrespect hint this is a rhetorical question paul havemann internet paul hsh com they re not just opinions they re caffeine for the brain up to milligrams per cynical observation recommended minimum daily requirement mg keep reading
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10,852 | talk.politics.misc | re new study out on gay percentage brian gab unt edu brian drakula stone writes the article also contains numbers on the number of sexual partners the median number of sexual partners for all men was compared to the table i have already posted from masters johnson and kolodny showing male homosexual partners it is apparent that homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general male population it s a shame that we don t have a breakdown for straight men vs gay bi men that would show even more dramatically how much more promiscuous gay bi men are isn t is funny how someone who seems to know nothing about homosexuality uses a very flawed imho source of information to pass jusgement on all homosexual and bisexual men it would seem more logical to say that since the heterosexual group of men is larger then the chances of promiscuity larger as well in my opinion orientation has nothing to do with it i don t understand what you are getting at here if the chances of promiscuity are larger yet the rate of promiscuity is lower in the heterosexual community doesn t that imply that the homo bi sexual population is then even more promiscuous than the raw statistics imply no axe to grind here i m just a scientist and i hate to see statistics abused men are men and they all like sex i am a gay male i have had sex three times in my life all with the same man before that i was a virgin i am a hetero man and have had sex with one woman in my life my wife it is very pleasing to me to be able to say that i hope you have the same feeling as i do i also wish that you could if you wanted experience the joys and trials of being committed to someone for life there is something about marriage that makes the commitment much greater than one might expect so whose promiscuous just because someone is gay doesn t mean they have no morals just because someone is heterosexual doesn t mean they do look at the world statistics alone prove that most criminals are by default hetero don t forget about the culture sadly we don t as a society look upon homosexuality as normal and as we are all too well aware there are alot of people who condemn it as a result the gay population is not encouraged to develop non promiscuous relationships in fact there are many roadblocks put in the way of such committed relationships it is as if the heterosexual community puts these blocks there so as to perpetuate the claim that gays are immoral my if we allowed gays to marry raise children we might just find out they re as moral as we are can t have that can we just some thoughts flame away dan
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10,853 | talk.politics.misc | re top ten ways slick willie could improve his standing with americans in article c kmz hy newsserver technet sg ipser solomon technet sg ed ipser wrote top ten ways slick willie could improve his standing with americans deleted for a very good reason which i m sure you can guess enact a law that bans people without a sense of humor from posting allegedly humorous items if he did this i think his approval rating would go through the roof copyright c edward a ipser jr this means we can t quote ed without his permission no using these lists in your sigs folks mel walker mwalker novell com all opinions expressed are of the author novell inc is not responsible for the content of this article
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10,854 | talk.politics.misc | re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in apr igor tamri com donb igor tamri com don baldwin writes think about it shouldn t all drugs then be legalized it would lower the cost and definitely make them safer to use i think so and i don t use drugs outside of the legal ones alcohol and coffee i m addicted to chocolate myself mob rule isn t any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government it ain t charity if you are using someone else s money wilson s theory of relativity if you go back far enough we re all related mark wilson atlantaga ncr com
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10,855 | talk.politics.misc | re clinton s immunization program in article apr martha utcc utk edu pa utkvm utk edu david veal writes in article c jobh zt apollo hp com goykhman apollo hp com red herring writes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jlinder magnus acs ohio state edu jeffrey s linder writes in article c fjsl is ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr c om mark wilson writes on the news last night clinton was bashing the republicans for stonewalling his so called stimulus package it seems that one small item within this package was going to pay for free immunizations for poor kids immunizations for children in this country are already free if you care to go have it done the problem is not the cost it is the irresponible parents who are to stupid or to lazy to have it done in case you haven t noticed clintonites are pushing a universal health care access program access here means that folks who do not give a damn about immunizing their children will have health care services delivered to their doorsteps i ve read about more than a few of these programs that ran into problems in convincing parents to get their children immunized even when they were delivered to their doorstep i don t know maybe that sheet they have to be informed of about possible risks side effects and bad reactions scares them the immunization program is just a useful first step among other things the money will go to pay for creating and maintaning a a computerized innoculation database on all u s children code named big mother just kidding the name will be children defense database or something like that once the money is spent and little or no tangible results achieved the goverment will have to start knocking down doors in some neigborhoods and bribe parents in others probably the ones that are paying kids for attending the school what a fantastic idea david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al disclaimer opinions expressed are mine not my employer s
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10,856 | talk.politics.misc | re sexual proposition sexual harassment in article lynn pcgeo lynn granitt uio no malcolm lynn writes this is a tesrt s of your spelling eh dr zippy dr zippy proof that dum blonde isn t a women only title ihorton uk ac coventry cck
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10,857 | talk.politics.misc | re clinton s immunization program in article apr utkvx utk edu drevik utkvx utk edu drevik steve writes in article c jobh zt apollo hp com goykhman apollo hp com red herring writes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jlinder magnus acs ohio state edu jeffrey s linder writes in article c fjsl is ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr c om mark wilson writes on the news last night clinton was bashing the republicans for stonewalling his so called stimulus package it seems that one small item within this package was going to pay for free immunizations for poor kids immunizations for children in this country are already free if you care to go have it done the problem is not the cost it is the irresponible parents who are to stupid or to lazy to have it done i don t know where you live but this is not the case nationawide perhaps your state or municipality has put together the funds to do so but in my area and most areas where i know people immunizations cost nationwide the immunization rate among toddlers is about but it is reportedly as low as in some inner city neighborhoods i bet more than kids living in such neighborhoods are already covered by medicaid here in massachussets we have had a universal immunization program the kind of clinton seems to be proposing for many years two decades mass immunization rate is what about the other i guess some parents are indeed too ignorant or too lazy or simply do not care sorry to shatter your stereotypes in case you haven t noticed clintonites are pushing a universal health care access program access here means that folks who do not give a damn about immunizing their children will have health care services delivered to their doorsteps disclaimer opinions expressed are mine not my employer s disclaimer opinions expressed are mine not my employer s
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10,858 | talk.politics.misc | re why not concentrate on child molesters in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes in article bu edu kane buast bu edu hot young star writes when are you going to admit that the data you presented show just this that only about of child molesters are gay and thus are not overrepresented with respect to the general incidence of homosexuality when someone can show something besides a redbook article correct me if i m wrong but isn t this irrelevant either the data shows something or it doesn t regardless of what other studies show admit it what you showed to us doesn t prove that gay men are more likely to be molesters brian kane buast astro bu edu hot young star astronomy dept boston university boston ma true personal salvation is achieved by absolute faith in ones true self
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10,859 | talk.politics.misc | re abolish selective service in article apr ra msstate edu fpa trumpet cc msstate edu fletcher p adams writes kmitchel netcom com kenneth c mitchell writes dave borden borden head cfa harvard edu wrote the selective service registration should be abolished to start with the draft is immoral whether you agree with that or not we don t have one now and military experts agree that the quality of the armed forces is superior with a volunteer army than with draftees finally the government has us on many lists in many computers the irs social security admistration and motor vehicle registries to name a few and it can find us if it needs to maintaining yet another list of people is an utter waste of money and time let s axe this whole department and reduce the deficit a little bit i m really surprised clinton hasn t already tried to do this he seems to want to tackle other irrelevant issues first so why not this one as well considering that clinton received a draft notice and got out of it he admits it the political feasibility of him abolishing it is not something he would be inclined to risk any extra exposure on let me say this about that as a retired navy officer i agree cut it but let s not stop there eliminate the c transport wrong we need its capability sure it has its problems very few airplanes haven t but getting rid of something we need is not the answer what do you want to do start over a rebuild a new airplane from scatch it ll have its problems as well and there will be calls again for it to be scrapped the other option is to try to extend the life of the c s and c s that are getting extremely old if you read aviation week the c line can be reopened and the c s would be delivered a year earlier and cost a billion less for the program politically though the c is popular pork scrap the seawolf ssn nuclear submarine ground the b stealth bomber it ll cost jobs but i m for it we especially don t need a b the ssn i know litttle about agreed congress took money from nasa and fha to fund the second seawolf the shipyards are still building los angeles class submarines and there is a lack of asw foes to contend with the navy is considering reducing the number of attack subs to navy times and that would entail getting rid of or mothballing some of the current los angeles class politically general dynamics is in connecticut and we will get seawolf subs whether we need them or not in addition more bases need to be closed probably long beach naval station and others the navy is talking about three main bases on each coast being required to home port a total fleet of ships the question is whether les aspin and clinton will be able to face down a pork happy congress marc mueller
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10,860 | talk.politics.misc | re national sales tax the movie speaking of vat did anyone see cnn s report yesterday it was quite hillarious no pun intended they ran down how a percent tax was added at each stage of manufacturing graphicaly depicting a stack of quarters being added at each wholesale stage when they got to the final stage the actual retail sale the small stack of quarters added to the large stack already there was said to be the amount paid by consumers in other words they completed ignored the fact that at each stage the tax would of course be passed on to the next buyer with the retail consumer paying the full load these are not journalists they re lap dogs roger shouse the university of chicago email shou midway uchicago edu
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10,861 | talk.politics.misc | re national sales tax the movie in article aa inet gw pa dec com blh uiboise idbsu edu broward l horne writes well it seems the national sales tax has gotten its very own cnn news logo cool that means we ll be seeing it often man i sure am glad that i quit working or taking this seriously in if i kept busting my ass watching time go by being frustrated i d be pretty damn mad by now i just wish i had the e mail address of total gumby who was saying that clinton didn t propose a nst actually jerry brown essentially did and clinton in his demagogue persona condemned brown for it in the crucial ny primary last year however why don t the republicans get their act together and say they will support a broad based vat that would have to be visible the vat in canada is visible unlike the invisible vats they have in europe and suggest a rate sufficient to halve income and corporate and capital gains tax rates and at a rate sufficient to give the clintons enough revenue for their health care reform and force an agreement with the democrats that the top income tax rate would then be frozen for the forseeable future and could be increased only via a national referendum why not make use of the clintons to do something worthwhile shift the tax burden from investment to consumption and get health care reform and a frozen low top marginal tax rate all in one fell swoop gerald
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10,862 | talk.politics.misc | re the state of justice in article apr desire wright edu demon desire wright edu not a boomer writes a judge denied gm s new trial motion even though gm says it has two new witnesses that said the occupant of the truck was dead from the impact not from the fire thoughts it s kind of scary when you realize that judges are going to start denying new trials even when new evidence that contradicts the facts that led to the previous ruling appear or has the judge decided that the new witnesses are not to be believed shouldn t that be up to a jury and what about members of the previous jury parading through the talk shows proclaiming their obvious bias against gm shouldn t that be enough for a judge to through out the old verdict and call for a new trial whatever happened to jurors having to be objective first people should be aware that brett s no last name listed posts on bit listserv politics indicate that he has been hostile toward gm s hiring policies and to the moseley verdict when it came out equal opportunity disagreement i guess my guess without seeing the judge s opinion is that gm s motion was denied on due diligence grounds otherwise a party to a case could always keep one or two semi credible witnesses in reserve to spring if they lose not exactly a way to promote repose daniel reitman the uniform commercial code protects the innocent purchaser but it is not a shield for the sly conniver the blindly naive or the hopelessly gullible atlas auto rental corp v weisberg misc d n y s d n y city civ ct
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10,863 | talk.politics.misc | re new study out on gay percentage in optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes the article also contains numbers on the number of sexual partners the median number of sexual partners for all men was compared to the table i have already posted from masters johnson and kolodny showing male homosexual partners it is apparent that homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general male population it s a shame that we don t have a breakdown for straight men vs gay bi men that would show even more dramatically how much more promiscuous gay bi men are possibly because gay bi men are less likely to get married what was the purpose of this post if it was to show a mindless obsession with statistics an incredibly flawed system of reasoning and a repellent hatemonger agenda then the purpose was accomplished with panache a get a clue b get a life c get out of my face i m not in yours drewcifer bi andrew d simchik schnopia as b uhura cc rochester edu treewater words weren t made for cowards happy rhodes
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10,864 | talk.politics.misc | re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article apr pmafire inel gov cdm pmafire inel gov dale cook writes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu ryan c scharfy writes in article stevethc jgcr ht netcom com steveth netcom com steve thomas w ri tes just try to justify the war on drugs i dare you a friend of mine who smoke pot every day and last tuesday took hits of acid is still having trouble aiming for the bowl when he takes a dump don t as me how i just have seen the results boy i really wish we we cut the drug war and have more people screwed up in the head i m sorry about your friend really but this anecdote does nothing to justify the war on drugs if anything it demonstrates that the war is a miserable failure what it demonstrates is that people will take drugs if they want to legal or not perhaps if your friend were taking legal regulated drugs under a doctors supervision he might not be in the position he s in now i do agree with you in a way the war on drugs has failed but in my opinion that doesn t mean we have to give up only change the tactics for instance here are how some penalties should be changed dealing coke death dealing heroin death dealing pot death dealing crack death the list goes on and on just kidding however on a more serious note i do believe that we should take some money away from the foriegn operations in south america and costly border interdiction efforts don t think i m going to say spend it to educate people because i know plenty of educated dopers actually spend it on things like drug treatment programs i saw an interesting story on minutes about how the british actually prescribe and addict his recommended dosage and try to ween him off from it or cut the amount down to levels where it is acceptable sounds good so far from what i heard with a decrease in cost lower addiction rates by wiping out the dealer s markets etc but that was the only thing i have heard about it however legalizing it and just sticking some drugs in gas stations to be bought like cigarettes is just plain silly plus i have never heard of a recommended dosage for drugs like crack ecstasy chrystal meth and lsd the minute report said it worked with cocaine cigarettes pot and heroin ryan
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10,865 | talk.politics.misc | re top ten ways slick willie could improve his standing with americans in article c kmz hy newsserver technet sg ipser solomon technet sg ed ipser writes top ten ways slick willie could improve his standing with americans institute a national sales tax to pay for the socialization of america s health care resources declare war on serbia reenact the draft stimulate the economy with massive income transfers to democtratic constituencies appoint an unrepetent socialist like mario cuomo to the suprmeme court focus like a laser beam on gays in the military put hillary in charge of the ministry of truth and move stephanopoulos over to socialzed health care balance the budget through confiscatory taxation remind everyone again how despite the democrats holding the presidency the majority of seats in the house and in the senate the republicans have still managed to block his tax and spend programs go back to england and get a refresher course in european socialism snip and the number one way slick willie could improve his standing with americans drum roll anton get himself an appointment with dr kervorkian and keep it john kerrigan a k a jmkerrig vela acs oakland edu
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10,866 | talk.politics.misc | re new study out on gay percentage in article apr news cs brandeis edu st pip cc brandeis edu blort eeeep hwaaah writes wouldn t one expect more heterosexual men than gay men to be promiscuous simply due to a larger group of potential partners just a thought matt you might except that gay men are much more promiscuous than straight men which shows how damaged and screwed up gay men are clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
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10,867 | talk.politics.misc | re new study out on gay percentage in article c navn f p murdoch acc virginia edu gsh w fermi clas virginia edu greg hennessy writes in article philc n d mk netcom com phil netcom com phil ronzone writes tells you something about the fascist politics being practiced ah ending discrimination is now fascism greg hennessy university of virginia when you force people to associate with others against their will yes clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
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10,868 | talk.politics.misc | re why not concentrate on child molesters in article c og h de exnet co uk sys exnet co uk xavier gallagher writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes in article mjcugley apr glenturret maths and cs dundee ac uk mjcugley maths and cs dundee ac uk womble with attitude writes absolutely nothing seeing as there is no table for heterosexuals if as you claim the supposedly higher promescuity amongst homosexual males makes them an insurance risk you need to be show that heterosexual males are less promiscuous than homosexual males without the data on heterosexual males we cannot make a comparison between promiscuity rates of heterosexuals and homosexuals mjcugley maths and cs dundee ac uk world or mjcugley uk ac dund maths and cs uk well the obvious point to make is would straight men fuck like rabbits if the oppertunity presented itself i reckon any man would go wildly promiscuous if presented with a huge variety of willing partners the question here is not of being that i suppose says a lot about how screwed up you are clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine xavier clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
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10,869 | talk.politics.misc | re using california s antidiscrimination the sort of case i predicted in article c jv a f b exnet co uk sys exnet co uk xavier gallagher writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes in article apr armory com rstevew armory com richard steven walz writes face it clayton he was not found guilty and so what if gays sometimes make it consensually with year old boys there are year old gays you know and as i recall the case of the state rested on the testimony of one victim who declined to testify even under threat i have had teens since i was and so have a lot of people face it clayton you re just a jerk rsw richard steven walz rstevew deeptht armory com maple street without safe and free abortion women are santa cruz ca organ surrogates to unwanted parasites i am always amazed to see people admit to breaking the law and putting their address in the signature please tell us more about this were they would you like to make a statement for the district attorney i had sex with a year old boy it was great we did everything well a hell of a lot it was fun anyway oh and before you turn purple with rage i was at the time clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine the walz monster above however was past when he molested these kids as he says above clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
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10,870 | talk.politics.misc | re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article apr gordian com mike gordian com michael a thomas writes in article c ij h l news iastate edu jrbeach iastate edu jeffry r beach writes in article apr gordian com mike gordian com michael a thomas writes in article c huh news iastate edu jrbeach iastate edu jeffry r beach writes i really don t want to waste time in here to do battle about the legalization of drugs if you really want to we can get into it and prove just how idiotic that idea is read i do not know what the fuck i m talking about and am not eager to make a fool of myself oh you foolish person i do know what the fuck i m talking about and will gladly demonstrate for such ignorants as yourself if you wish the legalization of drugs will provide few if any of the benefits so highly taunted by its proponents safer cheaper drugs along with revenues from taxes on those drugs reduced crime and reduced organized crime specifically etc etc if you would like to prove how clueless you are we can get into why again a lot of wasted posts that i don t think this group was intended for and something easily solved by you doing a little research from a pragmatic standpoint there certainly is some justification if it is a vice people will commit anyway shall we criminalize alcohol again if the re legalization for alcohol were done from making you look bad is too damn easy the vast social and historical differences between alcohol and other drugs make this comparison worthless vice statutes serve only to make it more expensive for the rich and more dangerous for the poor as tim so eloquently put it people will however and so it shall be if the government by the people decides that these vices are detrimental to the society as a whole and why pray tell is aids victim in snear quotes are you of the revisionist sort that thinks there is no such thing as the aids plauge or do they just deserve it the overwhelmingly vast majority get the point of aids cases are contracted thru behavioral choices nuff said
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10,871 | talk.politics.misc | re the state of justice in article qksa inni m shelley u washington edu tzs stein u washington edu tim smith writes demon desire wright edu not a boomer writes a judge denied gm s new trial motion even though gm says it has two new witnesses that said the occupant of the truck was dead from the impact not from the fire thoughts how can a witness tell that someone in a burning truck is dead rather than unconscious their testimony would be a contradiction of the plaintiff s charge and witness that the occupant moved after the impact indicating he was alive and trying to get out and provoking all sorts of sympathetic gross burned alive reactions it s kind of scary when you realize that judges are going to start denying new trials even when new evidence that contradicts the facts that led to the previous ruling appear or has the judge decided that the new witnesses are not to be believed shouldn t that be up to a jury what kind of witnesses if we are talking about witnesses who were at the accident or were otherwise directly involved e g paramedics emergency room doctors etc then they should have been used at the first trial you don t get a new trial because you screwed up and forgot to call all of your witnesses they are two witnesses who didn t come forth until after the first trial while it would be tough luck for gm if they new about these witnesses beforehand imo this constitutes new evidence if we are talking about new expert witnesses who will offer new interpretations of the data note that the loser can always find such witnesses if this were grounds for a new trial then the loser could always get a new trial and keep doing so until the loser becomes a winner and then the other side would come up with new expert witnesses no i support rulings that deny new trials on those grounds brett there s nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction sean o casey in the white plague by frank herbert
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10,872 | talk.politics.misc | pork c c was re abolish selective service muellerm vuse vanderbilt edu marc mueller writes fpa trumpet cc msstate edu fletcher p adams writes eliminate the c transport wrong we need its capability sure it has its problems if you read aviation week the c line can be reopened and the c s would be delivered a year earlier and cost a billion less for the program politically though the c is popular pork i do read av week and don t remember this could you supply the date of the magazine as for c vs c the c can t carry as much but has more capability read can land at smaller airfields of which there are more of than the c now is the c pork it depends on whether your job relies on it or not in california right now i would say that it is not pork since due to peace dividend so many people are out of work the question is whether les aspin and clinton will be able to face down a pork happy congress marc mueller huh shouldn t that read the question is whether a social pork happy les aspin and clinton will be able to face down a jobs pork happy congress fpa
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10,873 | talk.politics.misc | clinton s wiretapping initiative if you look through this newsgroup you should be able to find clinton s proposed wiretapping initiative for our computer networks and telephone systems this initiative has been up before congress for at least the past months in the guise of the fbi wiretapping bill i strongly urge you to begin considering your future i strongly urge you to get your application for a passport in the mail soon i strongly urge you to consider moving any savings you have overseas into protected bank accounts while you are still able
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10,874 | talk.politics.misc | re the state of justice in article apr desire wright edu demon desire wright edu not a boomer writes in article qksa inni m shelley u washington edu tzs stein u washington edu tim smith writes what kind of witnesses if we are talking about witnesses who were at the accident or were otherwise directly involved e g paramedics emergency room doctors etc then they should have been used at the first trial you don t get a new trial because you screwed up and forgot to call all of your witnesses they are two witnesses who didn t come forth until after the first trial while it would be tough luck for gm if they new about these witnesses beforehand imo this constitutes new evidence the test isn t whether gm knew otherwise that would reward gm for its stupidity the test is whether gm reasonably should have known of their existence it works both ways if gm had won the trial and the plaintiff turned up two witnesses who came forward after the first trial who should have been located beforehand too bad so sad no new trial like tim said you don t get a new civil trial because you screwed up the first time around unlike the criminal justice system repose is much more important in the civil justice system ted frank thf kimbark uchicago edu i m sorry the card says moops the u of c law school standard disclaimers
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10,875 | talk.politics.misc | re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article stevethc js f fn netcom com steveth netcom com steve thomas writes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu ryan c scharfy writes in article stevethc jgcr ht netcom com steveth netcom com steve thomas wri tes just try to justify the war on drugs i dare you a friend of mine who smoke pot every day and last tuesday took hits of acid is still having trouble aiming for the bowl when he takes a dump don t as me how i just have seen the results boy i really wish we we cut the drug war and have more people screwed up in the head i ll answer you re sarcasm with more sarcasm boy it looks like the wod is working really good to stop people from being screwed up in the head given that example issue your friend got his drugs legal or not legal he ll continue to get them issue why should i as somebody who does not use illegal drugs and who is not screwed up have to pay for this idiot s problems he s not doing anybody any harm except himself the wod on the other hand is an immediate threat to my life and livelyhood tell me why i should sacrafice this to that and not only that but if the drugs were legal we could have pharmacists instead of pushers selling them and the pharmacists could be obligated to not only inform the purchasers of the dangers of drug use but also show them how to use the drugs in relatively safe ways and the dangers of impurities responsible for much of the suffering that drugs cause would be all but eliminated dave borden borden m harvard edu
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10,876 | talk.politics.misc | re nc vs hunt marine gay bashing in wilmington nc verdict tfarrell lynx dac northeastern edu thomas farrell writes so you feel that the defendents should have been convicted regardless of the evidence now that would truely be a sad day for civil rights i don t know about everybody else but to me they should have been convicted because of the evidence which in my mind was quite sufficient what evidence are you aware of what was reported in the media or all of the evidence that was presented at the trial this sounds to me a lot like the first rodney king trial a bunch of people who saw to seconds out of a several minute long video decided that they knew more than people who had sat through a two week trial mob rule isn t any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government it ain t charity if you are using someone else s money wilson s theory of relativity if you go back far enough we re all related mark wilson atlantaga ncr com
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10,877 | talk.politics.misc | re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes let me try to drag this discussion back to the original issues as i ve noted before i m not necessarily disputing the benefits of eliminating anti competitive legislation with regard to auto dealers barbers etc one need not however swallow the entire libertarian agenda to accomplish this end just because one grants the benefits of allowing anyone who wishes to cut hair to sell his her services without regulation does not mean that the same unregulated barbers should be free to bleed people as a medical service without government intervention as some many libertarians would argue on a case by case basis the cost benefit ratio of government regulation is obviously worthwhile the libertarian agenda however does not call for this assessment it assumes that the costs of regulation of any kind always outweigh its benefits this approach avoids all sorts of difficult analysis but it strikes many of the rest of us as dogmatic to say the least i have no objection to an analysis of medical care education national defense or local police that suggests a free market can provide a more effective efficient means of accomplishing social objectives than is provided through statist approaches with some notable exceptions however i do not see such nitty gritty worthwhile analysis being carried out by self professed libertarians excellently put even as a libertarian i have to admit government does do some things i like there is a beautiful performing arts complex in ft lauderdale that was partially built with tax dollars i don t know how much was private and how much was stolen i mean public but it is beautiful and i enjoy it keep in mind though most of the people in the city will never attend a single performance there so they might feel differently about having to help pay for it however i have to disagree about it being desireable or efficient to give government intervention power on a case by case basis in fact we have a lot better luck maintaining our freedom of speech precisely because it is not decided on a case by case basis as much as other issues judges decide whether political speech is allowed on the sidewalk in front of the post office they do not try to decide just whether pro nazi pro choice pro life or pro tax political speech should be allowed on the sidewalk in front of the post office you can imagine the result if right to free speech was decided by the majority on a case by case basis not so with economic issues government does tell taxi drivers exactly what they can charge but not the bus lines or the lawyers just as it is not desireable to decide rights of free speech on a case by case basis we should not decide rights to free enterprise on a case by case basis there is hope that a government can be restricted from interferring with free enterprise but there is no hope in my opinion of having a government that interferes with free enterprise in an efficient manner i call it political market failure thus if you value freedom and the abundance it produces you have to swallow the whole libertarian agenda roger collins
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10,878 | talk.politics.misc | re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article bb b b dak s vma smsu edu ext dak s vma smsu edu writes you think that you all have it bad here at good ol southwest missouri state u we have parties running for student body president there s the token sorority fraternity faces and then there s the president and vice president of norml they campaigned by handing out condoms and listing their qualifications as i listen really well it makes me sick to have a party established on many of the things that are ruining this country like they are i think i ll run next year well a student body president can t exactly campaign on the stand that he s tough on crime their job is to listen to what people want and fund things that make sense condoms and marijuana aren t exactly the worst things to have available either don
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10,879 | talk.politics.misc | re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu ryan c scharfy writes just try to justify the war on drugs i dare you a friend of mine who smoke pot every day and last tuesday took hits of acid is still having trouble aiming for the bowl when he takes a dump don t as me how i just have seen the results gee the war on drugs has been going on for all these years and they re still getting drugs imagine that my friends who like grass i don t agree but it s pretty harmless are unable to get it yet i know a number of places where someone stupid enough could get crack cocaine within a half hour of leaving my office the war on drugs has been completely unsuccessful yet it s lead to really horrible abuses of peoples constitutional rights i don t see how a thinking person could justify it don
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10,880 | talk.politics.misc | re the role of the national news media in inflaming passions kaldis writes the fact that she was wearing a miniskirt with no underwear was presented as evidence that she was a prostitute and the court apparently found this compelling ah i know women who wear miniskirts without wearing underwear and they are not prostitutes because the judge found that there was some credible evidence that the marines were engaged in self defense got it knucklehead gee both clayton and kaldis engaging in ad hominem arguments i presented evidence that what you said is not what the judge ruled provide your evidence repeating a false claim is not evidence greg hennessy university of virginia usps mail astronomy department charlottesville va usa internet gsh w virginia edu uucp uunet virginia gsh w
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10,881 | talk.politics.misc | re national sales tax the movie in article apr midway uchicago edu shou quads uchicago edu roger colin shouse writes speaking of vat did anyone see cnn s report yesterday it was quite hillarious no pun intended they ran down how a percent tax was added at each stage of manufacturing graphicaly depicting a stack of quarters being added at each wholesale stage when they got to the final stage the actual retail sale the small stack of quarters added to the large stack already there was said to be the amount paid by consumers in other words they completed ignored the fact that at each stage the tax would of course be passed on to the next buyer with the retail consumer paying the full load these are not journalists they re lap dogs one of the commentators on one of the big three news programs described the vat which ain t a sales tax as a tax government s love i was even surprised he got the reason right it effectively hides the majority of the tax the consumer has to pay from the consumer it s kind of like they do with cars you pay far more for automobile taxes than most people realize because it s contained in two dozen different taxes everything from your license to your tires to your gasoline david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
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10,882 | talk.politics.misc | re new study out on gay percentage in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes from the santa rosa cal press democrat april p b male sex survey gay activity low a new natonal study on male sexual behavior the most thorough examination of american men s sexual practices published since the kinsey report more than four decades ago shows about percent of the men surveyed had engaged in homosexual sex and percent considered themselves exclusively homosexual actually what the study shows is that percent of the men surveyed said they engaged in homosexual sex and percent said they considered themselves exclusively homosexual the point being that what people say and what they acutally do may be different it is interesting that this clip from the newspaper did not mention that difference maybe it is conservative media bias the figures on homosexuality in the study released wednesday by the alan guttmacher institute are significantly lower than the percent figure that has been part of the conventional wisdom since it was published in the kinsey report russ anderson disclaimer any statements are my own and do not reflect upon my employer or anyone else c ex twins jack morris innings pitched runs world series mvp
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10,883 | talk.politics.misc | re capital gains tax increase loses money in article c j wi igk panix com eck panix com mark eckenwiler writes in apr midway uchicago edu thf midway uchicago edu sez in article apr desire wright edu demon desire wright edu not a boomer writes no i m saying any long term investor the ones likely to have large capital gains would be foolish to sell in order to avoid a tax hike that a might disappear in any given year and b be overcome in a year or two by accumlated gains to which my response is so what not all people who pay capital gains taxes are long term investors more than enough of them aren t for there to be huge blip whenever capital gains taxes get raised i never said that everyone would find this advantageous i said that more than enough would for the result to be readily noticeable and distort trends even if brett s eventual return figures were correct and they clearly weren t he d still be wrong about the cause for the blip because he fails to consider basic factors you misunderstand i m not trying to prove a cause for anything merely pointing out that ted s assertion that the blip in revenues was caused by selling to avoid the tax can t be proven as ted notes not everyone is a long term investor one might find oneself as i did in late anticipating expenses in the near term that require selling off holdings given the choice between waiting a few weeks and taking an extra tax hit or selling in december with preferential tax treatment only a fool would choose the former not disputed the fact that brett can now construct post hoc calculations of what would have been more beneficial to investors is in many respects beside the point there was plenty of money style advice given to unsophisticated investors in late to sell now and save on taxes in case anyone missed it there was no shortage of similar advice late last year in the nytimes e g even though that advice was based not on the foregone conclusion of enacted law as in but merely on the assumption that clinton would raise tax rates without capping cg taxes contrary to the current proposal it works for any situation if you believe the market is going up don t sell if believe it s not sell but then you d be selling anyways wouldn t you so where is the evidence that a large number of people suddenly decided that the higher taxes meant they should sell before the year was out there isn t any ted s saying that the increase over the previous year is proof of that proposition but i m saying you can t know that the trend of increasing capital gains revenues wouldn t account for a lot of that increase was the height of the housing boom remember people were trading up like mad it s nice to think that investors always behave in their optimal economic interest like assuming weightless ropes and frictionless pulleys though this sort of thinking often fails to describe accurately what happens in the real world indeed brett there s nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction sean o casey in the white plague by frank herbert
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10,884 | talk.politics.misc | clinton caves in reduces jobs bill clinton has backed off from the billion jobs bill word is he s paring it down to the core jobless benefits money for creating full time jobs ie no summer jobs money chalk one up for holding the line on spending brett there s nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction sean o casey in the white plague by frank herbert
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10,885 | talk.politics.misc | re only month a alan brock orange county register editorial titled a case for repealing the income tax got my attention some quotes a tax on income because of the flexible definition of that concept invites the government to snoop into every nook and cranny of our lives encouraging people to snoop on one another and report transgressions against the almighty state which most americans deplored in nazi or communist regimes although most americans paid no income tax at all years ago withholding began only during world war ii as a temporary exigency and in the median family federal income tax was last year the federal government got only percent of its income from income taxes how long ago was it that the federal government somehow managed to stagger along on percent of its revenue would you believe five the income tax has converted a free people into a society of the fearful and the snitches
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10,886 | talk.politics.misc | re national sales tax the movie in article apr alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes in article aa inet gw pa dec com blh uiboise idbsu edu broward l horne writes well it seems the national sales tax has gotten its very own cnn news logo cool that means we ll be seeing it often man i sure am glad that i quit working or taking this seriously in if i kept busting my ass watching time go by being frustrated i d be pretty damn mad by now i just wish i had the e mail address of total gumby who was saying that clinton didn t propose a nst actually jerry brown essentially did and clinton in his demagogue persona condemned brown for it in the crucial ny primary last year however why don t the republicans get their act together and say they will support a broad based vat that would have to be visible the vat in canada is visible unlike the invisible vats they have in europe and suggest a rate sufficient to halve income and corporate and capital gains tax rates and at a rate sufficient to give the clintons enough revenue for their health care reform the republicans are in general fighting any tax increase there is also worry that a vat would be far too easy to increase incrementally btw what is different between canada s tax and most of europe s that makes it visible and force an agreement with the democrats that the top income tax rate would then be frozen for the forseeable future and could be increased only via a national referendum this would require a constitutional amendment and congress enjoys raising taxes too much to restrict themselves like that besides with the majority necessary to pull that off you d have a difficult time forcing anything like that why not make use of the clintons to do something worthwhile shift the tax burden from investment to consumption and get health care reform and a frozen low top marginal tax rate all in one fell swoop primarily because it s a practical impossibility to freeze tax rates however this is something that bothers me we re always talking about consumer confidence and consumer spending as gauges for the economy if they really are important wouldn t shifting taxes to consumption provide a disincentive to spend money david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
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10,887 | talk.politics.misc | just what is in the jobs pork bill this was in wed wsj start the white house seeking to mount public pressure on gop senators bombarded news outlets in some senator s home states with news releases warning that certain projects may not be funded if the billion stimulus bill isn t passed none of the projects mentioned are actually in the bill rather they are part of a wish list that may be funded from the billion in community development block grants end i could have sworn i heard a bunch of clintonites going on and on raving about how dishonest it was that the rebublicans were taking items from this wish list in order to ridicule this bill now that clinton is using that same list in order to garner support for the bill are you guys going to do the honarable thing and say that clinton is being dishonest mob rule isn t any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government it ain t charity if you are using someone else s money wilson s theory of relativity if you go back far enough we re all related mark wilson atlantaga ncr com
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10,888 | talk.politics.misc | re abolish selective service muellerm vuse vanderbilt edu marc mueller writes considering that clinton received a draft notice and got out of it he admits it the political feasibility of him abolishing it is not something he would be inclined to risk any extra exposure on as a libertarian with a small l who voted for clinton i think that he should abolish the selective service and the draft if his conscience forbade him to go to war in vietnam it should forbid him to perpetuate this system of government sanctioned slavery agreed congress took money from nasa and fha to fund the second seawolf the shipyards are still building los angeles class submarines and there is a lack of asw foes to contend with the navy is considering reducing the number of attack subs to navy times and that would entail getting rid of or mothballing some of the current los angeles class politically general dynamics is in connecticut and we will get seawolf subs whether we need them or not if our government would pay attention to serious domestic issues the economy and choose to stay out of other people s wars iraq bosnia somalia we would not be in this fix an anyway couldn t the jobs be replaced by improving our domestic situation i m not for continued deficit spending but if clinton and congress want to spend i d rather they improve the infrastructure than fight other people s wars in addition more bases need to be closed probably long beach naval station and others the navy is talking about three main bases on each coast being required to home port a total fleet of ships the question is whether les aspin and clinton will be able to face down a pork happy congress a novel idea getting away from naval bases what about refurbishing decommissioned air force bases as airports this would be so much cheaper than building them from the ground up denver s new airport is one of the most appalling examples of pork barreling and cronyism i have seen in my lifetime even if no more airports are needed i m sure bill gates or ross perot would love to have their own private airfields and the money from their purchases could be applied to the public debt jon dunn all e mail flames will be deleted without reading
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10,889 | talk.politics.misc | re pork c c was re abolish selective service in article apr ra msstate edu fpa ra msstate edu fletcher p adams writes muellerm vuse vanderbilt edu marc mueller writes fpa trumpet cc msstate edu fletcher p adams writes eliminate the c transport wrong we need its capability sure it has its problems if you read aviation week the c line can be reopened and the c s would be delivered a year earlier and cost a billion less for the program politically though the c is popular pork i do read av week and don t remember this could you supply the date of the magazine aviation week march p the cbo estimates that matching the capability of c s would require c s at a total cost of billion this option is still more than billion cheaper than completing the c program which the cbo estimates will cost billion sorry i was nine billion off the c s would be ten billion cheaper as for c vs c the c can t carry as much but has more capability read can land at smaller airfields of which there are more of than the c now is the c pork it depends on whether your job relies on it or not in california right now i would say that it is not pork since due to peace dividend so many people are out of work well california voted overwhelmingly for change right the argument to continue military programs just to support jobs is a poor one it s kept quite a few bases open that should have been closed years ago wasting billions of taxes the question is whether les aspin and clinton will be able to face down a pork happy congress marc mueller huh shouldn t that read the question is whether a social pork happy les aspin and clinton will be able to face down a jobs pork happy congress fpa marc mueller
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10,890 | talk.politics.misc | re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article stevethc js f fn netcom com steveth netcom com steve thomas writes boy it looks like the wod is working really good to stop people from being screwed up in the head given that example issue your friend got his drugs legal or not legal he ll continue to get them issue why should i as somebody who does not use illegal drugs and who is not screwed up have to pay for this idiot s problems he s not doing anybody any harm except himself the wod on the other hand is an immediate threat to my life and livelyhood tell me why i should sacrafice this to that hello is there anybody in there you think you have to pay for this idiot s problem now who s going to pay for the ballooning number of addicts and all of the associated problems with them i don t even want to think about it with hillary in the white house and an administration that feels our pain no harm but to himself what about when he drives his school bus full of kids into a train when he gets stoned and drives up on a sidewalk and kills people when he lives off me on welfare for the rest of his life the problem with the wod is that it has no bite sending the slimy bastards to the chair for selling drugs to kids now there s some bit
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10,891 | talk.politics.misc | re california insurance commissioner endorses federal legislation to protect consumers from scam insurance companies in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes you mean since your philosophy took over the economy has almost collapsed excuse me my philosophy you don t have any idea what my philosophy is the american economy has had its ups and downs through a number of prevailing economic philosophies but then economics is hardly a science in my lifetime your philosophy socialism masquerading as a liberal welfare state has been in ascendancy yo earth to clayton my philosophy i have never discussed this with you i know it s a minor point but gee dude you have no idea what economic and political principles i adhere to but don t let that stop you you re on a roll just ascribe to me whatever you want i know you ll choose wisely after all i do believe in personal responsibility no i mean exactly what i wrote the welfare system of the new deal is wholly inadequate to cope with the current state of affairs absolutely so the response of socialists is take us even further into socialism duh what else would you expect a socialist to do flash in the pan no your subculture has utterly dominated the tv and movie industries for two decades now my subculture my we re getting personal the only subculture i see dominating the tv and movie industries is money if you ll buy it they ll sell it and as recent movements to boycott tv advertisers have shown they re very sensitive about what sells whatever happened to personal responsibility anyway or am i personally responsible for the decline in that too to the extent that people have been encouraged to not be responsible for themselves yes a just when and where have i encouraged people not to be responsible for themselves be specific but do make up random dates and heinous acts as you see fit b you and i have encouraged many people to do many things how does that in any way make our audiences less responsible for their actions is there a finite amount of responsibility so cf conservation of energy as i become more responsible for an occurrence by encouraging it the actual perpetrator becomes correspondingly less so at what point does the perpetrator become completely innocent altogether you know this lends a whole new meaning to the term the moral high ground oddly enough all the unskilled or semiskilled people i know manage to find employment almost immediately maybe she needs to move to a cheaper part of the country where jobs are plentiful and the cost of living is lower the west side of chicago is about as cheap as it gets squalor city tell me about all these places where it s cheap to live and jobs are abundant i ll pass them on sonoma county i will pass the info on out of curiosity what kind of jobs would these be what s the demographic mix wrt race age culture lots of employment and utterly surrounded by socialists well i suppose that s the sort of environment that would attract socialists or at least not dissuade them no it s that areas with a lot of wealthy breed socialists all the spoiled rich kids feeling guilty about their wealth but not guilty enough to give it away they just look for politicians to take my more limited wealth away life s a bitch ain t it man you ve got to get out of fornicalia have you considered someplace perhaps geographically distant but politically more friendly to you like say indiana or maybe utah well i doubt that much of this goes to drugs there isn t much left after buying food and there is very little in the first place sure you read about such cases now and then but that s what makes them news show me your statistics about afdc abuse i can tell you that relatives i have known the drugs came first the food was secondary i don t doubt it but unless you can show me statistics to the contrary i will persist in my apparently dogmatic socialist belief hey if you say so that most afdc money really does for better or worse in the long term feed fdcs ken perlow apr germinal an cci gadfly ihspc att com l audace toujours de l audace encore de l audace
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10,892 | talk.politics.misc | re top ten ways slick willie could improve his standing with americans in article mwalker mwalker npd provo novell com mwalker novell com mel walker writes copyright c edward a ipser jr this means we can t quote ed without his permission no using these lists in your sigs folks oh darn okay okay let s stop slamming ipser and get on with making fun of other people alan
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10,893 | talk.politics.misc | re will italy be the next domino to fall hagenjd wfu edu jeff hagen writes a good two party system will bring italy efficient accountable government yeah just like we have here in the us walter g rolandi usenet rolandi andy hssc scarolina edu internet rolandi hsscls hssc scarolina edu
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10,894 | talk.politics.misc | re we re winning the war on drugs not kennejs a cs okstate edu kennedy james scot writes the chart that follows was taken from the wednesday april issue of usa today drug use up among u s eigth graders by mike snider p d adolescents choices drugs used by eighth graders in the last month estimated per students pct chg alcohol cigarettes marijuana amphetamines lsd cocaine crack source university of michigan institute for social research report we are not winning the war on drugs i think you can see that one of the tactics that the dea employs to give people the impression that the war on drugs is being won is to selectively quote statistics only statistics that support their contention that drug use has gone down the excerpt from time magazine that i included in this post is an excellent example of how organizations like the dea attempt to deceive the public unfortunately there s not much we can learn from the statistics presented here either due to rounding the est for lsd could be anywhere from to and the est could be anywhere from to this means that the actual change if you believe these statistics in the first place was anywhere from to similarly the increase in cocaine use could be anywhere from to and the increase of crack use could be anywhere from to this doesn t even take into account the margin of error which isn t provided here this does not mean that the rest of the argument you present is unfounded but it does mean that usa today has not surprisingly provided us with virtually no information
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10,895 | talk.politics.misc | re new study out on gay percentage clayton cramer writes compared to the table i have already posted from masters johnson and kolodny showing male homosexual partners it is apparent that homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general male population did you ever consider the selection effect that those who are willing to admit to being a member sexual minority homosexuality are more willing to admit to being a member of another sexual minority highly promiscious i didn t think that you did greg hennessy university of virginia usps mail astronomy department charlottesville va usa internet gsh w virginia edu uucp uunet virginia gsh w
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10,896 | talk.politics.misc | re clinton s wiretapping initiative in article aa inet gw pa dec com blh uiboise idbsu edu broward l horne writes if you look through this newsgroup you should be able to find clinton s proposed wiretapping initiative for our computer networks and telephone systems this initiative has been up before congress for at least the past months in the guise of the fbi wiretapping bill what kind of brainless clod posted the above garbage would they be so kind as to explain how this is clinton s initiative when it has been before congress for at least the past months jeez the next thing you know they ll be blaming the weather on the poor guy they ll be blaming world war ii on him they ll be blaming the civil war on him maybe the thirty years war
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10,897 | talk.politics.misc | re bill targets pension funds for liberation excerpts from insight magazine march paranoia part deleted isn t insight magazine published by the mooneys
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10,898 | talk.politics.misc | re how many homosexuals are there kaldis romulus rutgers edu theodore a kaldis writes perhaps but most likely not more than a new study discrediting kinsey says so the views expressed herein are theodore a kaldis my own only do you seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe that a major university rutgers remus rutgers edu kaldis as this would hold such views my understanding from my psycology classes is that the percentage is more like world wide i would really like to know your source for the figure riyadh moosa sdsu chemistry cosc ucssun sdsu edu
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10,899 | talk.politics.misc | re the tories could win the lottery clinton gst in article apr umr edu ckincy cs umr edu charles kincy w rites in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu ryan c scharfy writes this country is hardly ruined in fact it is booming compared to after the election this whole usa has gone to hell and reagan bush caused it is not only lame pathetic and old it s wrong under reagan bush the economy grew by trillion dollars this is more tha n the entire economy of germany a kind gentle country in many peoples books what a joke drive down to cincinnati and take a look not pretty is it but drive up to cleveland and it is about times better i from toledo originally but that place always as sucked as long as i ve been on the planet things were much better there in all that growth went into the hands of ron and georgie s pals and i didn t get a single dime of it dammit and now i m gonna be bled to death by tax leeches to pay for the damage f ing great republicans have been trying to pass a balanced budget amendment for the last ten years oh here s another thing seems like a lot of people in columbus drive over to marysville and make japanese cars hm because for a while the american companies couln t even compete in their own country where free trade isn t even an issue however even the automobile pendelum has swung back to the big i wonder how many american owned companies employ those in central ohio other than ohio state university oh i don t know it s probably in the tens of thousands ryan
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