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10,700 | talk.politics.misc | re re fillibuster in article c ovfr c u dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes in article veal utkvm utk edu veal utkvm utk edu david veal writes if the senate was less powerful than the house of lords than we d almost have to state that the house of representatives was also in fact they both were because the british government had much greater power than did the american system in principle no in practice yes in principle no that they had less power of that they should have had less power the british parliament in principle has absolute power so does the monarch much of the stability of the system rests on what is not defined clearly in the case of a clear abuse by one side or the other the other side can act to remedy the situation two institutions with absolute power cute let s talk practicality shall we if the monarch tried to do something what would happen if they were to start from a social welfare model instead of the current no state subsidy motto they would be better placed as it is there is plenty of state money being handed out the problem is that it is distributed on the basis of power in congress and not on the basis of actual need bingo the higher up the governmental ladder the less actual need matters because political power can be concentrated at higher levels while people with less cloud only find themselves reduced to in effectiveness that was not my point but you illustrated the problem very well in order to set up a school project in new york state you have to pay off the other states with pork defense contracts agricultural subsidies etc or to be precise of the states since you need to beat the filibuster then why not simply leave new york s education to new york i remain unconcinved that there is any state in the union which is not capable of educating its own children if that s what they want to do the point is of redistribution of cash from the poor areas of the ecconomy to the rich ones i am contending that there is no state in the union which does not have ample wealth if they choose to spend it to run a perfectly acceptable education system i further contend that the amount of money being spent now is more then sufficient but is being spent badly or vice versa if you aren t a republican so tell me phill were the republicans also responsible for some of the huge increases in social programs or were they only responsible for what you don t like i contend it is congress which is to blame democrat and republican alike if society simply writes off any areas of the country that is ecconomically weak you end up with a basket case ecconomy there are inevitable cycles in any business some of these act in phase to produce the business cycle others are countercyclic localities can experience boom to bust cycles outside the national trend to produce a strong ecconomy you need to ensure that the bust areas do not fall bellow the level where they cannot be ecconomically rebuilt most of our worst areas are still better off than most of europe in any case we re talking about education if the industry in an area collapses the us as a whole still has a responsibility to ensure that the children in that area get a good education in some areas of the us schools are closing halfway through the year for lack of money yes i live in once such area you re woefully ignorant of the situation at the same time some of tennessee s school districts are closing down the governor asked for million dollars for bicentenntial celebration license plats in almost the same breath he wanted to raise unemployment compensation and reduce taxes which paid into it i don t know about the rest of the country but our education problems stem directly from two problems neither of which are a lack of money in the state btw tennessee is considered a tax heaven and our economy is one of the strongest in the country i see a correlation what money we spend goes primarly to administration the average administrator makes two and a half times what the average teacher makes and sucks up an enormous amount of revenue and the governor is making a concerted effort to create an education crisis in order to push for his pet income tax some of the most idiotic programs get funded like state funds for new art in the county seat while schools are closing it s not a lack of funds it s an unwillingness to spend them on what is more appropriate education is the parental hot button education is always the first to but cut because it s easier to get people to pay for their children than ugly art the u s constitution is a nuts and bolts document the delcaration of independence was the high brow reasoning there are a couple of other examples though such as the reasoning for the power to tax and the reasoning for the power to grant permits both in article i section the declaration on independence cam a decade earlier and has not a line of justification for the us constitution you could argue that it went into the broad concepts but little more it spoke very eloquently on government being based on the consent of the governed in fact it is little more than a protracted whinge more to do with the price of tea than the design of a government it would be a pretty daft idea for a bunch of guys to sit arround designing the structure of the new government while the little matter of the british army remained to be settled they did it anyway the continental congress had its own set of bylaws it wasn t quite a government but a means of making decisions had to be created however low george washington s opinion of them were to a certain extend i do believe the veto has become something it wasn t intended however i also believe it is inevitable considering the congress own abuse of their power to make bills say whatever they want them to say unlike most people i think we shouldn t be worrying about the veto which is fine but of the problem in congress which almost necessitates its abuse the congress is the most democratic body in the whole system allow me again to speak heresy against the holy democratic orders so what the government was built with a very non democratic presidency with fairly broad powers including the veto it has not only the fairest system of election but the two year term means that the members have always got a recent mandate yes and the senate was intended to act as a balance to this too much democracy was intentionally avoided it was considered a good thing to place non democratic blocks to impulsive action on the other hand if the period of election were to be made years in antiphase to the presidential cycle there would be much less dependence on fund raising from special interests than there is at present so long as congress has something to sell people will pay for it most congressmen rake in more money than they need why not what is inherently wrong with biasing the system against action historically governemnt action in the u s when dealing with issues with a bare minority and a large minority have not been successful when you re in a position of imposing federal power on diverse people why should the federal government not have to got through something more than a bare majority in other words david thinks that the reactionaries should need only votes while progressives should need no if the progressives don t want the reactionaries to move backward they get the same benefit of the states is a lot of people and historically laws with that sort of minority arent very effective especially since it is usually geographically concentrated when wielding the federal big stick i don t see why they shouldn t have to make a better argument than more people than not agree now we know why nobody calls the republicans democrats i m not a republican i m a republican and no i m neither a democrat nor a democrat now i ve asked several times and all you ve done is answer it isn t democratic which i knew before i said it why should it be democratic we don t have a true direct democracy and few people advocate one why then is this other modification of democracy to bias it against action so much worse david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
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10,701 | talk.politics.misc | re diplomat license plates in article apr linus mitre org m mwunix mitre org james meritt writes automobiles belonging to personnel associated with the embassies from various nations have diplomatic license plates they are red white and blue and read dll where l is a letter and the s are numbers the d means diplomatic and the l s indicate which country a few years ago the actually teh d means the registered driver has diplomatic immunity that means they can do as they damn well please on the roads and you have only god as your protection the state department issues saa xxx plates for personnel who work at the embassies but haven t been granted immunity most embassies have restricted parking for embassy personell street side the s plates allow them to use those parking areas as well as the restricted lots at national and state dept without a lot of crap pat
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10,702 | talk.politics.misc | re eight myths about national health insurance pt ii in article apr news columbia edu gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes the difference in the litigation environment is reflected in the fees lack of defensive medicine and near absence of malpractice is really why we spend less using the most expensive approach of pure insurance then why do we really need national health insurance then wouldn t it just make more sense to find some way to cut down on the cost of malpractice insurance and maybe that s not such a good thing i also read somewhere that it is next to impossible in canada to litigate against the health system class action suits are nearly impossible and you can t sue the provincial health officials at all part of the deal for using the all insurance approach like the french and germans do hey why don t they criticize france and germany is it because too many people take french and german in college to make the accusations stick was to preserve the doctors independance since the provincial wings of the cma are the ones that go to bat when the fee schedule hikes are presented the politically bent doctors were just cackling when they realized the cma would grow in strength rather than diminish especially when unopposed unlike in socialized medicine approaches like britain s national health service oh no don t let the ama know about this they have enough power as it is ask most americans whether they d like the doctors lobby to get more powerful for non life threatening things market arguments adequately cover why certain procedures are in scarcer demand i have md friends who can t make a living as specialists back in manitoba not due to the insurance rates but because they won t get enough customers the cma medical monopoly s grip on doctors licencing as in the us aside so they must move to larger places however this does not refute debunking of waiting lines for urgent and routine care as has been done in the u s by consumers reports health policy studies cited by prof dennis e shea on usenet cnn nyt etc well yeah tell us about the national defense medical centre outside ottawa theoretically it s limited to service personnel but some studies i ve heard about have suggested that about half the patients there are civilians who not only have connections but aren t urgent at all the problem is in a system where hospitals annual budgets are approved by the government how do you keep political considerations out of medical decisions i bet that if you re an mp or mpp or good friends with one you re put on any hospital s urgent care list no matter how minor your problem which is ok unless you re someone who gets bumped off the list for some bigshot wouldn t national health insurance mean that americans who are now fully insured might have to settle for less in canada provincial insurance covers all health costs except dental care eyeglasses prescription drugs ambulance service and private hospital rooms so many canadians do end up buying some private insurance a policy to cover all of these things runs about to a month hmm how much difference would it make in the figure of percentage of gnp spent on health care if dentistry and optometry were included in the accounting maybe canada spends proportionately just as much on health care as we do of course the one thing to note is that in the canada france germany case private insurance offloaded the basic coverage to the public sector they realized they were keeping low risk high profit extra insurance for things like private semi private rooms vs ward accomodation dental glasses etc for corporate or personal benefits they ll have nothing to do with you if you want to be covered for basic care at that point they wouldn t even consider a voucher approach to broker the universal coverage and sell policies to make up the difference in the federal guidelines and market stuff so what happens if the health care systems financially collapse bob rae the second least popular man in ontario warned ontarians a few years ago that if they didn t stop cross border shopping in such huge numbers the services they expect from the province just won t be there in a few years fortunately for them and less fortunately for the retailers here in western new york the canadian dollar went back to a more realistic value he didn t say so but i knew he meant the ohip what would happen if his warning turned out to be the truth would the private insurers take up the slack they d be under no obligation to of course they could eventually make money again but if what you say is true they d be loathe to do so and out of practice in handling such basic services too wouldn t free care encourage people to run to the doctor for every ache and pain people who get free treatment do go to the doctor and hospital about a third more often than those who have to pay a share of their medical bills still canadians who pay nothing at the doctor s have a lower per person health bill than we do it is free in that there are no deductibles nor copayments two things which i advocate to make the canadian insurance look more like real health insurance which actually it is i know that when working in alberta ontario and quebec i was aware that i was paying for health insurance e g in toronto ohip fees were listed on my pay stub manitoba did not collect at paycheque time but only annually at income tax time built into the tax rate only fiscal naifs will proclaim that it s free along with the canadian left for that is part of their brainwashing agenda would that it were free americans would start another revolution if they had to pay taxes at canadian rates isn t the private health insurance industry just too big and powerful to kill dismantling the health segment of our insurance industry would be politically thorny in the quiet words of one advocate for a national plan some firms now sell more than billion in health insurance they d put up a hard fight not only has the industry grown eightfold since canada shut down its own health insurers but our government leaves politicians more open to lobbyists than does canada s parliamentary system health insurance does exist in canada and in western europe its just that it doesn t cover basic care you can opt out in canada and germany but you ll have to go uninsured as a result because there are too few other people that do so i e no market when private insurance realized how much money they d make without the risks involved in basic insurance e g neurosurgery versus deluxe amenities e g having to call granada tv to replace a rental set on the fritz in someone s private hospital room they started to pat themselves on the back for their social responsibility in quebec last spring a consortium of private insurers publicly warned against any thoughts of privatizing routine low cost parts of that province s public health insurance plan again i doubt americans would like giving the insurance companies that much power i half wonder if the canadian health insurers didn t go along with the provinces and the federal government years ago because they knew that there was a good chance of the public system going bust in the long run and then afterwards they could clean up okay this sort of contradicts what i said higher up but it s another possibility they d have an added bonus when arguing against government involvement in their industry as they could then point to its failure instead of just citing theoretical principles
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10,703 | talk.politics.misc | re abolish selective service william fractl tn cornell edu writes in article apr m harvard edu borden head cfa harvard edu dave borden writes the selective service registration should be abolished to start with the draft is immoral whether you agree with that or not we don t have one now and military experts agree that the quality of the armed forces is superior with a volunteer army than with draftees finally the government has us on many lists in many computers the irs social security admistration and motor vehicle registries to name a few and it can find us if it needs to maintaining yet another list of people is an utter waste of money and time let s axe this whole department and reduce the deficit a little bit dave borden borden m harvard edu you selfish little bastard afraid you might have to sacrafice somthing for your country what someone not approve a lone for you to bad what is immoral is people like you and the current president who don t have any idea why this country still exists after years this country still exists after years because the people have to be forced by the government to fight in foreign wars i don t think so bill
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10,704 | talk.politics.misc | re kyle k on rodney king in qqfam ogh usenet ins cwru edu aa cleveland freenet edu vern morrison writes in a previous article kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu koppenhoefer kyle cramm says thf kimbark uchicago edu ted frank writes in article c lp y fdk news cso uiuc edu kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu koppenhoefer kyle cramm writes how about the fact that you have a bunch of cops putting their lives on the line day in and day out who are afraid as hell of a large black guy that took a large amount of punishment and refused submit i m curious why you think that particular adjective is important i m curious why you took a beign statement and cross posted it to several different news groups including something along the lines of alt discrimination look rodney king is black and large i have several large black male friends and they are referred to as being large black men to their faces and by themselves you know ted i have a large number of adjectives for you but i will spare you most of them because i try not to get into personal flame wars let me just say that i think your action of cross posting this was total bs and you re trying to start some crap hopefully others will see through your trite little game and not play along you still haven t addressed ted s statement we re waiting yeah i m also curious as to why you felt compelled to remind us of the guy s race btw i don t mean to imply that you re clueless or anything but the statement was hardly benign hokh ton the crystal wind is the storm mdouglas netcom com and the storm is data michael douglas llyr and the data is life player s litany the long run
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10,705 | talk.politics.misc | re high speed rail is bad in article apr pony ingres com garrett ingres com the sky already fell now what writes i didn t see your post so i can t comment on it my on high speed rail is i like it i like it alot it would be too bad to see it tainted by corruption that s all the speed limit on commuter tracks in the northeast is mph we already have something that resembles high speed rail in this country and it requires massive government subsidies we don t need another government boondoggle john f haugh ii pgp s cs utexas edu rpp jfh ma bell dof s jfh rpp cactus org look up ponzi scheme in a good dictionary it will have a picture of joe liberal handout right next to it stop federal spending cut the deficit
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10,706 | talk.politics.misc | re we re from the government and we re here to help you in article apr infonode ingr com albeaj jima b d ingr com jim albea writes in article mar isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes ouch now that really hurts i m being accused of no breadth nor depth to my historical knowledge because i m unwilling to agree that economic inequality leads to poverty and from there to social and political instability you go read your history again poverty is the main engine of social instability in this context we ll put aside religious turmoil mass migrations etc well the fact of the matter is that poverty is imperfectly related to social and political instability while economic inequality is much more strongly related in virtually all major revolutions including england the puritan revolution france russia and china the revolutions occurred as economies were undergoing substantial long term growth and poverty was declining what sets off revolutions is massive inequality coupled with a perception on the part of those at the bottom that social change is possible if poverty were the main engine of social instability this typical historical pattern would not hold in fact revolutions would have been far more typical before the nineteenth century than since that time much deleted gee jim if you ll check the constitution you ll find in order to promote the general welfare do ordain and establish this constitution i m surprised you missed it it s right there in the first paragraph i would have thought you would have made it at least through the preamble you almost got it right and it was a good try but you should follow your own advice the preamble to the constitution does read as you have quoted but let us not forget that after all it is only the preamble it is not a binding part of the constitution and carries no weight in the law that poor tortured paragraph has got to be one of the most unfortunate passages in the english language witness the legions of blowhards like yourself who think those vague flowery phrases are part of the law of the land do you really believe that a politician only has to give lip service to promoting the general welfare to be within the limits of the constitution sorry buddy but some other blowhards managed to include the general welfare in another portion of the constitution article i section the congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and general welfare of the united states i guess they wanted to make sure everyone understood they meant what they said in the preamble just to make sure you ve got the point let s do a little experiment what if the constitution read as follows preamble we the people to promote the general welfare do ordain and establish this constitution for the united states of america constitution the federal government shall have one function and one function only to provide for the defense of the nation but as noted above the constitution doesn t say that does it the government would not then have two functions defense and welfare but since it explicitly includes both the general welfare and defense in article i section i guess you ll grant that botha are constitutional functions right jsh steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls t r hofferbert ma bell
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10,707 | talk.politics.misc | re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article apr tijc uucp pjs tijc uucp paul schmidt writes steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes in article apr tijc uucp pjs tijc uucp paul schmidt writes it is a failure of libertarianism if the ideology does not provide any reasonable way to restrain such actions other than utopian dreams society would collapse if most people were evil most of the time david bergland agreed if people are basically evil the last thing you d want is a big government staffed by those evil folks exercising control over you david bergland agreed freedom seems to have unleashed the creative energies of the people and leads to ever higher levels of income and social progress u n report agreed the argument is not between those who want limited government and those who want unlimited government it is between those who believe government regulation in a capitalist economy serves worthwhile ends and those who believe such regulation is neither desirable on empirical grounds nor justifiable on ideological grounds good summary selling your labor or goods so that you can eat and buy a house is essential so that you can excercise your personal freedoms paul schmidt advocates for self government davy crockett chapter president and this demonstrates i assume that you re a liberal steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls t r hofferbert ma bell
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10,708 | talk.politics.misc | re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article apr venus tamu edu gmw venus tamu edu mr grinch writes in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes it would seem that a society with a failed government would be an ideal setting for libertarian ideals to be implemented now why do you suppose that never seems to occur i fail to see why you should feel this way in the first place constant combat isn t particularly conducive to intellectual theorizing also they tend to get invaded before they can come to anything like a stable society anyway and the reason that the soviet union couldn t achieve the ideal of pure communism was the hostility of surrounding capitalist nations uh huh somehow this all sounds familiar once again utopian dreams are confronted by the real world mr grinch steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls t r hofferbert ma bell
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10,709 | talk.politics.misc | re eight myths about national health insurance pt ii v pxgt ubvmsb cc buffalo edu daniel b case writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes the difference in the litigation environment is reflected in the fees lack of defensive medicine and near absence of malpractice is really why we spend less using the most expensive approach of pure insurance and maybe that s not such a good thing i also read somewhere that it is next to impossible in canada to litigate against the health system class action suits are nearly impossible and you can t sue the provincial health officials at all since our doctors are private and the system is just an insurance plan litigation would not involve the insurance fund our lawyers do not work on contingency so that if you were to sue for malpractice then you d better be sure of winning to cover your fees likewise if you were a doctor and subject of a suit it s time to sweat since the provincial wings of the cma are the ones that go to bat when the fee schedule hikes are presented the politically bent doctors were just cackling when they realized the cma would grow in strength rather than diminish especially when unopposed unlike in socialized medicine approaches like britain s national health service oh no don t let the ama know about this they have enough power as it is ask most americans whether they d like the doctors lobby to get more powerful a few weeks ago the president of the canadian ma wrote a letter to the nyt to decry a lobbyist s advert repeating the same old trash this is significant because the ama and the cma are interlinked organizations and he would not have done it without the approval of his ama cronies well yeah tell us about the national defense medical centre outside ottawa theoretically it s limited to service personnel but some studies i ve heard about have suggested that about half the patients there are civilians who not only have connections but aren t urgent at all it serves the same purpose as the bethesda naval hospital since not all hospitals can provide everything maybe they have some stuff that others don t ottawa s population is only a quarter million if you include the surrounding counties the problem is in a system where hospitals annual budgets are approved by the government how do you keep political considerations out of medical decisions i bet that if you re an mp or mpp or good friends with one you re put on any hospital s urgent care list no matter how minor your problem which is ok unless you re someone who gets bumped off the list for some bigshot people of influence will get their way in any system american or european it s the golden rule he who has the gold makes the rules as for annual budgets those are actually annual grants for facilities e g mops pans etc given to hospitals of which most are private nonprofit foundations btw i have no problem with having aggressive for profit hospitals like the french who use our approach but in the paris region they have almost as many people as canada does so their market is much more diverse the rest has to be made up for by billings from patients who use their services wouldn t national health insurance mean that americans who are now fully insured might have to settle for less in canada provincial insurance covers all health costs except dental care eyeglasses prescription drugs ambulance service and private hospital rooms so many canadians do end up buying some private insurance a policy to cover all of these things runs about to a month hmm how much difference would it make in the figure of percentage of gnp spent on health care if dentistry and optometry were included in the accounting maybe canada spends proportionately just as much on health care as we do the gdp figures are combined public and private expenditures for total outlay and are compiled use the same methods by the oecd that yield the figure for the u s so what happens if the health care systems financially collapse how they are collecting premiums and i m an advocate of having copayments like the french do in their system in order to make it look more like the real insurance that it is the private doctors and hospitals will still be there after the insurance hypothically disappears as they were there before it appeared bob rae the second least popular man in ontario warned ontarians a few years ago that if they didn t stop cross border shopping in such huge numbers the services they expect from the province just won t be there in a few years for one thing i think that bob rae is an idiot he didn t say so but i knew he meant the ohip most of ohip comes from separate premiums on your paycheck if you are a player he wants to spend our money on other things than the health insurance our high taxes are high for other spending but health insurance which is separate and optional and it is being spent in a nonpartisan manner by every party ohip is just a health insurance plan it does not provide any kind of health care that is up to you and your private doctors would the private insurers take up the slack they d be under no obligation to of course they could eventually make money again but if what you say is true they d be loathe to do so and out of practice in handling such basic services too some of the companies providing extra insurance are subsidiaries of american companies and their parents provide full insurance down here regardless all firms up north can easily turn on cable tv to see how well the american firms are doing by being involved in basic coverage the private firms are making too much money after having gotten rid of basic coverage they run around patting them selves on the back for their own cooperation in providing extras for those people who deserve it when private insurance realized how much money they d make without the risks involved in basic insurance e g neurosurgery versus deluxe amenities e g having to call granada tv to replace a rental set on the fritz in someone s private hospital room they started to pat themselves on the back for their social responsibility in quebec last spring a consortium of private insurers publicly warned against any thoughts of privatizing routine low cost parts of that province s public health insurance plan again i doubt americans would like giving the insurance companies that much power i half wonder if the canadian health insurers didn t go along with the provinces and the federal government years ago because they knew that there was a good chance of the public system going bust in the long run and then afterwards they could clean up okay this sort of contradicts what i said higher up but it s another possibility they d have an added bonus when arguing against government involvement in their industry as they could then point to its failure instead of just citing theoretical principles i agree they were in a win win situation but right now it seems that they have won bigger when you look at how full their coffers are friends from my sisters mba class were still being flown out for job interviews individually with insurance firms in london on canada s insurance capitol a la hartford along with generous expense privileges this year despite the ongoing post recession blues gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
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10,710 | talk.politics.misc | re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes in article apr rigel tamu edu gmw rigel tamu edu mr grinch writes in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes of course one again faces the question of how one circumscribes government power and keeps it circumscribed in a complex society when it is in the interest of neither capitalists nor consumers to refrain from using government power for their own ends but apart from that little conundrum this is a difficult problem for which there is no obviously good solution one approach is simply to try and move political opinion and hope a new more libertarian consensus lasts for a while another approach is to try and amend the constitution the original constitution restrained the u s government from economic intervention for to years depending on just how one wants to count it the first amendment though weakened in many ways still restrains government particularly state and local even though on many particular issues the majority is in favor of censorship i think libertarians would be happy with another years of restraint via an amendment or two not that i think that s likely to happen not necessarily mr hendricks but other posters seem to see this as a problem with libertarianism that it cannot be stable that might be true but it is not an objection to libertarianism per se if a libertarian political consensus forms for a decade or two and then falls apart again we would just be back where we are now this is unlike the case for socialism where a socialist consensus that held for a while and then fell apart would not leave us where we are now but instead with lots of bureaucracy that would be hard to get rid of if not tyranny as the end condition of a strong socialist consensus ervan darnell ervan cs rice edu
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10,711 | talk.politics.misc | malpractice not the issue was re myths about national health in article c p hx e acsu buffalo edu v pxgt ubvmsb cc buffalo edu daniel b case writes in article apr news columbia edu gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes the difference in the litigation environment is reflected in the fees lack of defensive medicine and near absence of malpractice is really why we spend less using the most expensive approach of pure insurance then why do we really need national health insurance then wouldn t it just make more sense to find some way to cut down on the cost of malpractice insurance it would if malpractice and defensive medicine were the main factors in explaining spiralling us health care costs but they aren t although gary is correct in noting that malpractice related problems are greater in the us than canada they by no means account for the overall difference in health care costs they do account for a somewhat larger portion of the difference in physicians gross income in the two countries some facts malpractice insurance and awards account for less than of total health care costs in the us in according to a survey of physicians conducted by a national medical journal physicians averaged paying of their practice receipts in malpractice insurance malpractice insurance premiums and malpractice awards peaked in they ve declined significantly since then at the same time health care costs have increased more than any period in history as far as defensive medicine is concerned the ama estimates that its total impact is about billion per year that s about of the total current increase in health care costs and the estimate is from a group that could be expected to overestimate the impacts of defensive medicine on health care as small a problem as this is in the overall scheme of things however clinton has been on record for a long time favoring an indemnification of md s against malpractice suits if they follow procedures set by their specialties this would eliminate most if not all frivolous suits while retaining the ability to sue for true malpractice jsh steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls t r hofferbert ma bell
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10,712 | talk.politics.misc | re kyle k on rodney king in article c nh hp news cso uiuc edu kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu koppenhoefer kyle cramm writes thf kimbark uchicago edu ted frank writes in article c lp y fdk news cso uiuc edu kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu koppenhoefer kyle cramm writes how about the fact that you have a bunch of cops putting their lives on the line day in and day out who are afraid as hell of a large black guy that took a large amount of punishment and refused submit i m curious why you think that particular adjective is important i m curious why you took a beign statement and cross posted it to several different news groups including something along the lines of alt discrimination exsqueeze me i saw your original post in alt discrimination your post was cross posted to three groups my followup was cross posted to two of those three omitting soc motss now instead of engaging in meta discussion off the topic could you answer the question posed if your statement is so beign you should have no trouble politely responding to a polite query ted frank thf kimbark uchicago edu i m sorry the card says moops the u of c law school standard disclaimers
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10,713 | talk.politics.misc | re temper tantrums from the s ok phil you re right so far the evidence suggests that nixon was a victim of overzealous underlings and kennedy was a womanizing disgust o blob with a dash of megalomania after crushing the cia and fbi who s to say kennedy wouldn t have created his own version of american friendly fascism unfortunately however we don t have all the evidence so far this nation s citizens have been privy to about hours of the total hours of nixon s tapes what s on the rest of those babies some archivists have alluded that there is evidence to suggest that nixon and his cronies including george bush were aware of the plot to murder kennedy before he was shot in dallas ask your local d a what the charges are for the above crime and so i must ask you phil me putz when all this shit finally comes out when you and i are old men i would appreciate the privilege of sticking a pole up your ass and parading you down main street with a sign on your chest i was an apologist for the american fascist regime circa how s that for a lovely brecht ian image there that ought to get a reaction unless i m in his killfile this week mpa
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10,714 | talk.politics.misc | re temper tantrums from the s in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes what they broke in the dnc for is still open to serious question some tape archivists suggest what they were after had something to do with the kennedy assasination let s hear all of the tapes real soon shall we mpa
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10,715 | talk.politics.misc | re abolish selective service dave borden borden head cfa harvard edu wrote the selective service registration should be abolished to start with the draft is immoral whether you agree with that or not we don t have one now and military experts agree that the quality of the armed forces is superior with a volunteer army than with draftees finally the government has us on many lists in many computers the irs social security admistration and motor vehicle registries to name a few and it can find us if it needs to maintaining yet another list of people is an utter waste of money and time let s axe this whole department and reduce the deficit a little bit more gridlock talk from another relic of the past the selective service system creates jobs and is an investment in the future of america and whats wrong with that we need jobs because at this point in the recovery the economy should have generated billion jobs and since it has not the government has to step in and help shutting down selective service would cost good jobs and we can t do that what we really need is to involve selective service in a more closely directed manner we need the selective service involved in environmental protection high speed rail commuter aircraft civil rights national service and health care every dollar we put into selective service now will get us less spending in future i really believe now to think about it that selective service is long past due for the creation of a cabinet position your not beyond hope just get back on america s side and start doing your part for change what bill needs from you now is support for the economic stimulus and health care reform you need to devote all your energies to fighting gridlock and supporting change get on the team after all the evil has been banished from washington and the time for complaint is past being neccessary and remember bill clinton cares he may someday even have a town meeting in your city if your an appropriate sort of person if you phrase your questions properly and show the proper respect and awe you might have the chance to ask mr president your question in person
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10,716 | talk.politics.misc | re rnitedace and violence i am glad that you recognize that people should not engage in denial and repression and should acknowledge such the united states with its people have recognized that repression has taken place with the loss and outright abrogation of civil liberties and constitutional protections of citizens this recognition has taken the form of the civil rights law let s just discuss the federal level for now such as usc et seq usc et seq et al with this recognition of repression at times manifested in the form of collective guilt i want people to recognize denial though it can be said that white people numerically commit more crimes in the united states because white people are a majority it can also be said that black people commit a disproportionate amount of crime in the united states in their relation to their numbers in population my views are out of experiences when i was a police officer in a large metropolitan area and of a citizen unless people account for their behavior and for the behavior of their immediate community nothing will improve regards neal
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10,717 | talk.politics.misc | re top ten excuses for slick willie s record setting disapproval rati in article emoryu cc emory edu libwca emory edu bill anderson writes shapiro sofbas enet dec com steve shapiro writes oh and btw its william jefferson blythe clinton no it s not and i really fail to understand the use of that name as an insult do you feel that being adopted implies some sort of moral failing no it s a sign of aristocrtic out of touchness with the middle class you ask george herbert walker bush about that and that s not his full name what then is it even quayle had his honeymoon period it lasted a full hours after he was chosen as bush s running mate kevin j podsiadlik vaporware engineer nd class this contribution the president wants e mail hampton ais org us to make is it tax deductible compuserve larry wright
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10,718 | talk.politics.misc | re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes in article apr venus tamu edu gmw venus tamu edu mr grinch writes in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes it would seem that a society with a failed government would be an ideal setting for libertarian ideals to be implemented now why do you suppose that never seems to occur i fail to see why you should feel this way in the first place constant combat isn t particularly conducive to intellectual theorizing also they tend to get invaded before they can come to anything like a stable society anyway and the reason that the soviet union couldn t achieve the ideal of pure communism was the hostility of surrounding capitalist nations uh huh somehow this all sounds familiar once again utopian dreams are confronted by the real world steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com steve you re the one who suggested that a failed government should be an ideal proving ground i never felt that way in the first place quite the contrary i think a better proving ground would be someplace that already had a governemnt that would prevent outright acts of agression yet had a strong spirit of individualism and initiative someplace like texas mr grinch
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10,719 | talk.politics.misc | re kyle k on rodney king thf kimbark uchicago edu ted frank writes in article c nh hp news cso uiuc edu kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu koppenhoefer kyle cramm writes thf kimbark uchicago edu ted frank writes in article c lp y fdk news cso uiuc edu kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu koppenhoefer kyle cramm writes how about the fact that you have a bunch of cops putting their lives on the line day in and day out who are afraid as hell of a large black guy that took a large amount of punishment and refused submit i m curious why you think that particular adjective is important i m curious why you took a beign statement and cross posted it to several different news groups including something along the lines of alt discrimination exsqueeze me i saw your original post in alt discrimination your post was cross posted to three groups my followup was cross posted to two of those three omitting soc motss now instead of engaging in meta discussion off the topic could you answer the question posed if your statement is so beign you should have no trouble politely responding to a polite query well i don t think your query was exactly polite but i will try to give you a polite responce something atypical of the net but here it goes black is a descriptive adjective that describes mr king from many of the newspaper radio and tv news reports i have seen this adjective is commonly in front of his name i have never seen anyone complain about the use of this adjective when used in a benign manner i did not say that mr king was a no good black i do not know mr king and would not make this ascertian without some evidence to this effect i used it purely as a descriptive adjective in the same manner than many most news people have used it in the past the entire second trial was about race ted i don t feel compelled to discuss mr king s racial background but had mr king been white there would not have been a second trial you probably are saying that the beating would not have occurred if he were white but that is an extremely difficult call to make it is possible the case but not definately i still think your actions are crap ted they are far more divisive than me using the adjective black in a non derogenory manner would you have been happier if i had used african american if so then you really are lost in the world of pc you have already been instrumental in getting one persons net access revoked and i wonder if you have sent a copy of my message to my sys admin with a plea that i am not worthy of posting the way you went about this polite inquiry makes me believe it was anything but
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10,720 | talk.politics.misc | re anyone interested in facts here s a few oops i forgot to set read permission it s fixed now ftp netcom com login anonymous password your email address cd pub mvp binary get clinton zip you need pkzip x or the latest net zip to un deflate this economic stats since day one plus all of the myriad ways slick willie and the gang of are preparing to do it to us from ron brown s desk so any distortion is pro democrat can you believe it let s face it when it comes to utilities microsoft has mike van pelt performed about as well as a savings and loan these are mvp netcom com the guys remember who put backup and restore not to mvp lsil com mention edlin on your hard disk lincoln spector
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10,721 | talk.politics.misc | re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes i m not sure why you don t consider it an option no one suggests that such analysis should be left to regulators in fact the re inventing government movement provides just such a cost benefit approach to the analysis of public spending libertarians would do well to learn more about it okay let me try to explain this when one votes for such a creature as a senator or worse yet a president one votes not for specific policies but for a general package which must cover all issues for or years as such one s influence is highly diluted i might add that even if one were free to vote on individual regulations the vast amount of time required for considering a particular regulation combined with the very small chance of one s vote making a difference would make it unreasonable to expect the voter to make an intelligent decision with respect to specific regulations sorry but it strikes me that it is the only feasible approach what is not feasible is a wholesale attack on all government regulation and licensing that treats cutting hair and practicing medicine as equivalent tasks i m not sure what you mean by feasible in this case do you mean that are impossible in priciple or merely that it would be undesirable in fact actually the only areas of public spending above that strike me as generating substantial support among libertarians are police and defense of the four you saw fit to mention and education of minors is always another possibility since minors are generally considered not to be responsible to make their own decisions as adults are it is an interesting aside that as committed as libertarians claim to be to a principle of non coercion the only areas of public spending that they frequently support involve hiring people with guns hmmm you say this as if it were surprising yet in fact a necessary consequence of libertarian philosophy all non coersive functions should be dealt with privately therefore it follows that the only functions remaining to the state are the coersive ones perhaps you have may i suggest that you consider that revolutionaries frequently generate support by acting as protectors of geezers mothers and children governments that ignore such people on the grounds that we don t have much to fear from them do so at their own peril much more likely it s drunken teenagers the groups in questionare more likely to be worse off during and after a revolution than before in the unlikely event that you missed my earlier sarcasm let me say this directly the idea that such programs as social security or afdc should be considered defense an idea which has been advanced in ths and other newsgroups is so absurd a lie as to be unworthy of consideration do you seriously dispute this i don t want to seem patronizing but you still seem to be laboring under the delusion that under a socialized economic system it is reasonably intelligent and honest persons like yourself who make the decisions i feel any third party added to a transaction is every bit as likely to be ignorant or corrupt as the buyer or seller i don t expect you to agree with me but you explain why you feel i m wrong mr grinch
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10,722 | talk.politics.misc | re nc vs hunt marine gay bashing in wilmington nc verdict in article qp juinngu senator bedfellow mit edu wdstarr athena mit edu william december starr writes in article apr lynx dac northeastern edu tfarrell lynx dac northeastern edu thomas farrell said a good case a f king good case the defense lawyer asked the victim questions like what kind of sexual perversions do you participate in and you think he made a good case speaking as someone who s only about six weeks and a tuition bill away from becoming an unemployed slob with a law degree i d really like to see a transcript of this trial i d especially like to know what happened immediately after the defense attorney asked that question assuming that the reports that he did so are accurate i m not accusing tom farrell of making anything up but this is the sort of case that spawns garbled misquotes false rumors and urban legends like tribbles it d be nice to think that the prosecutor objected irrelevant prejudicial inflammatory take your pick and that the judge upheld the objection i did hear this question asked during a radio news update of the case they were talking about the ongoing trial and had some audio clips immediately after the defense attorney asked the question there was an objection heard in the background the clip ended at that point so i don t know if the objection was upheld i can t imagine nc is that bad the arresting officer said the bastards told him they did it on purpose and hoped the victim would die and you think the defense made a good case no wonder we re losing we re aparently not trying to win again i d like to see the transcript i d read the latter bit of that in the news media the arresting officer testifying that one of the defendants calmly asked him about the condition of the homo and said that he hoped he d die but this is the first i ve heard of the officer testifying that one of the defendants actually said that he did anything at all let alone that he did it on purpose this i didn t hear as an audio clip but heard it reported a number of times on news stories both during and after the trial now the we did it on purpose thing is stretching i think it was something more like he had it coming if somebody else remebers better than i on this second point feel free to clarify frank frank r chloupek chloupek ohstpy mps ohio state edu department of physics the ohio state university not just any ohio state university there is only one hard and fast rule about the place to have a party somebody else s place p j o rourke
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10,723 | talk.politics.misc | re new study out on gay percentage didn t the new study asked have you engaged in homosexual intercourse within the last two years whereas kinsey asked have you ever engaged or thought about engaging in homosexual activity sort of like the difference between did you have yogurt this morning and are you allergic to lactose michal impressive amounts of material can be accreted in this manner
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10,724 | talk.politics.misc | re anita hill giving out pubic hairs oh please prove it kaldis romulus rutgers edu theodore a kaldis writes in article mar zooid guild org goid zooid guild org will s eeves writes j lani herrmann we are wondering why the clinton administration is having so much trouble finding a suitable nominee for the post of attorney general when there is an obviously superior candidate we refer of course to prof anita hill michael friedman probably because if they pick her the republicans will investigate the rumors that she sometimes returned papers to her students with a couple of pubic hairs inserted between the pages while i m hardly one of prof hill s biggest fans i find this hard to believe could you please supply with a post preferably some proof of this ie newspaper articles documenting such allegations etc well your ignorance about this is unsurprising given you re a canadian and i m at a complete loss at to why you should be so interested in this given that it is an american issue which should properly be of absolutely no concern to you at all actually my interest in gender issues is not limited to international boundaries indeed i often exchange information with americans about issues which concern us in both countries in any event in answer to your question the following is taken from david brock s article the real anita hill published in the march issue of the american spectator this is taken from page ah someone had mentioned this journal but gave no further information but the most bizarre incident is alleged to have happened in the school year at oral roberts university according to a sworn affidavit dated october and filed with the senate judiciary committee in which lawrence shiles now a lawyer in tulsa recounted the following shortly after the class had begun professor hill gave us a written assignment which i completed and duly turned in when this assignment was passed out to the class after having been marked by the professor sitting next to me were fellow students jeffrey londoff and mark stewart upon opening the assignments and reviewing our grades and comments made by anita hill i found ten to twelve short black pubic hairs in the pages of my assignment i glanced over at jeff londoff s assignment and saw similar pubic hairs in his work at the time i made the statement to londoff that either she had a low opinion of our work or she had graded our assignment in the bathroom mark stewart overheard the conversation and said that he had similar pubic hairs in his assignment also this became the standing joke among many students for the remainder of the year in classes other students in that class confirmed the story londoff says he couldn t be certain that the hairs were pubic but he said he thought it was unlikely that they could have come from hill s head since they were short coarse and curly and hill had had the hair on her head straightened another student who saw the hair but did not want to be identified said of its origins you just know when you see it does this satisfy you yes thank you though i am really curious as to why this never came out at least not in what i saw up here in canada or on cnn which is sent up here during the thomas nomination hearings surely one would think that her claim to having been sexually harassed would have a great deal less credibility if it could be shown that she had herself been guilty of it or do you regard sworn statements given to a u s senate committee as equivalent to toilet paper ahemmm it depends for instance if it were the sworn statements at the warren commission then yes i would say that the statements were no better than toilet paper used at that but in most cases the answer would be no will steeves goid zooid guild org neil hull is goid zooid bbs toronto ontario the zoo of ids goids rule solve patriarchy install peterarchy peter j hanus b a upei slmr a scott me up beamy
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10,725 | talk.politics.misc | re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article apr venus tamu edu gmw venus tamu edu mr grinch writes in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes okay let me try to explain this when one votes for such a creature as a senator or worse yet a president one votes not for specific policies but for a general package which must cover all issues for or years as such one s influence is highly diluted i might add that even if one were free to vote on individual regulations the vast amount of time required for considering a particular regulation combined with the very small chance of one s vote making a difference would make it unreasonable to expect the voter to make an intelligent decision with respect to specific regulations i m afraid that i ve lost the thread here i didn t suggest that all government regulations be subject to referenda so i don t follow the comments above sorry but it strikes me that it is the only feasible approach what is not feasible is a wholesale attack on all government regulation and licensing that treats cutting hair and practicing medicine as equivalent tasks i m not sure what you mean by feasible in this case do you mean that are impossible in priciple or merely that it would be undesirable in fact i mean that an ideology that treats all government regulation as equally undesirable and seeks to abolish all regulations is unlikely to draw support among more than a miniscule portion of the electorate furthermore i am suggesting that such a plan is not feasible in an industrial society because the weight of litigation and or misery it would produce would effectively crush productive effort actually the only areas of public spending above that strike me as generating substantial support among libertarians are police and defense it is an interesting aside that as committed as libertarians claim to be to a principle of non coercion the only areas of public spending that they frequently support involve hiring people with guns hmmm you say this as if it were surprising yet in fact a necessary consequence of libertarian philosophy all non coersive functions should be dealt with privately therefore it follows that the only functions remaining to the state are the coersive ones no i m not surprised i just think it s interesting that on one hand libertarians assume a limited government can be decreed yet on the other posit an entire government made up of people who carry guns i realize that many libertarians assume that such a government will be counterbalanced by a fully armed citizenry but it is worth noting that widespread civilian ownership of guns does not necessarily prevent the establishment of totalitarian government e g iraq perhaps you have may i suggest that you consider that revolutionaries frequently generate support by acting as protectors of geezers mothers and children governments that ignore such people on the grounds that we don t have much to fear from them do so at their own peril much more likely it s drunken teenagers the groups in questionare more likely to be worse off during and after a revolution than before in the unlikely event that you missed my earlier sarcasm let me say this directly the idea that such programs as social security or afdc should be considered defense an idea which has been advanced in ths and other newsgroups is so absurd a lie as to be unworthy of consideration do you seriously dispute this yup sure do but since i also support the constitutional requirement that the government provide for the general welfare article i section i m willing to justify such programs on that basis i don t want to seem patronizing but you still seem to be laboring under the delusion that under a socialized economic system it is reasonably intelligent and honest persons like yourself who make the decisions i feel any third party added to a transaction is every bit as likely to be ignorant or corrupt as the buyer or seller i don t expect you to agree with me but you explain why you feel i m wrong well in the first place i don t support a socialized economic system i think within limits that capitalism is a fine idea but it is not the case that any third party is as likely to be ignorant or corrupt as the buyer or seller there are multitudes of examples where such a statement is demonstrably false regulation of stock market transactions that provide a reasonable basis for buyers to avoid fraud is only one example jsh mr grinch steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls t r hofferbert ma bell
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10,726 | talk.politics.misc | re bush s wi was clinton s wiretapping initiative in a previous article garrett ingres com the sky already fell now what says in article aa inet gw pa dec com blh uiboise idbsu edu broward l horne writes i guess your strength isn t in math clinton hasn t been president for months in other words it s bush s wiretapping initiative you re right i bailed out in diff eq nevertheless i would suggest to you that there is a difference between a proposed bill stalled in congress and a executive order crammed down our throats do you disagree i strongly urge you to consider moving any savings you have overseas into protected bank accounts while you are still able have you went to the post office on friday got my passport apps in my savings have already been converted
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10,727 | talk.politics.misc | re rnitedace and violence in article c ovg j magpie linknet com neal magpie linknet com neal said my views are out of experiences when i was a police officer in a large metropolitan area and of a citizen unless people account for their behavior and for the behavior of their immediate community nothing will improve wait a minute i agree with you that people have to take responsibility for their own behavior i assume that s what you meant by the word account but also for the behavior of their immediate community first of all how immediate are you talking about and secondly i have a lot of trouble with any theory of social behavior or justice which charges anyone with the duty of taking responsibility for or accounting for the actions of a different person william december starr wdstarr athena mit edu
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10,728 | talk.politics.misc | re new study out on gay percentage in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu ryan c scharfy writes actually i bet you more gay bi men are as not as promiscuous as gay men because more of them could have the option of living a straight life and with social pressures probably would at least try geez where have you been ryan i proposed this theory months ago let s take it one step further even if as the surveys show up to of all men have had a homosexual encounter then there must be an even larger percentage of people who have had homosexual erotic fantasies but if less than of the population is gay what can we say about these people who don t identify as gay but have demonstrated gay potential obviously a large chunk of these people chose or more accurately were forced to choose by force of religion and social sanction to put those feelings aside to be heterosexual obviously cramer and kaldis fall into this category these people are the ones who are so hung up on choice obviously since they chose everyone must have and homosexuals are just flaunting their perversion by choosing not to go along with what society has dictated of course i m that most awful of perverts i chose i gleefully admit that i was heterosexual until i met the right man and chose to indulge in my homoerotic potential take that elf elf halcyon com elf sternberg the purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas obscure pure reasoning and inhibit clarity with a little pratice writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog bill watterson s calvin
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10,729 | talk.politics.misc | re abolish selective service in article qpvj dfp fitz tc cornell edu william fractl tn cornell edu said in response to dave borden you selfish little bastard afraid you might have to sacrafice somthing for your country what someone not approve a lone for you to bad what is immoral is people like you and the current president who don t have any idea why this country still exists after years william if the reason that this country still stands after years is that it uses military conscription to force young men to fight for causes that they don t believe in strongly enough to volunteer for military service in support of then perhaps the fact that the country is still standing is not good news william december starr wdstarr athena mit edu
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10,730 | talk.politics.misc | re clinton s wiretapping initiative in a previous article helfman aero org robert s helfman says in article aa inet gw pa dec com blh uiboise idbsu edu broward l horne writes if you look through this newsgroup you should be able to find clinton s proposed wiretapping initiative for our computer networks and telephone systems this initiative has been up before congress for at least the past months in the guise of the fbi wiretapping bill what kind of brainless clod posted the above garbage would they be what kind of brainless clod doesn t understand the difference between a proposed bill blocked in congress and an executive order issued by clinton and crammed down our throats here let me give a remedial course in thinking in order to create the appearance of low interest rates uncle sam has shifted his debt from long term to short term securities in effect uncle sam has transformed the federal goverment into one giant s l waiting to blow short term rates rise interest payments on deficit rise uncle sammy has to borrow more causing short term rates to rise uncle sammy gets caught in a positive feedback loop his options i raise taxes a truly unimaginable amount ii make truly unimaginable spending cuts results of i large numbers of pissed off citizens results of ii large numbers of pissed off citizens uncle sammy has thoughtfully taken the initiative to pre empt the use of communication newtworks to foster a nation wide grassroots uprising
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10,731 | talk.politics.misc | re kyle k on rodney king in article c peay m news cso uiuc edu kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu koppenhoefer kyle cramm writes thf kimbark uchicago edu ted frank writes in article c lp y fdk news cso uiuc edu kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu koppenhoefer kyle cramm writes how about the fact that you have a bunch of cops putting their lives on the line day in and day out who are afraid as hell of a large black guy that took a large amount of punishment and refused submit i m curious why you think that particular adjective is important black is a descriptive adjective that describes mr king from many of the newspaper radio and tv news reports i have seen this adjective is commonly in front of his name i have never seen anyone complain about the use of this adjective when used in a benign manner i did not say that mr king was a no good black i do not know mr king and would not make this ascertian without some evidence to this effect i used it purely as a descriptive adjective in the same manner than many most news people have used it in the past no one is questioning whether mr king is black the question arises whether king s race should make police officers afraid as hell your statement seems to imply that cops should have a different standard for large black guys than for just large guys in general that two posts later you don t understand why anyone pointed out your use of the adjective is almost as informative as your original use ted frank thf kimbark uchicago edu i m sorry the card says moops the u of c law school standard disclaimers
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10,732 | talk.politics.misc | history its dangerous in article ajv usenet ucs indiana edu mrynders bronze ucs indiana edu maurice rynders writes in article apr alleg edu meyerj jon meyer writes in article apr nwnexus wa com pyotr halcyon com peter d hampe writes drieux wetware com drieux just drieux writes pps why is there still no call to end clinton s illegal war in somalia hold on there tex it s not his war everybody knows that its part of the reaganbushlegacy yeah sure they created the starvation there they put the warlords there yep sure been brainwashed by the media haven t you he probably is by the way what has reagan to do with this any way i bet most people had never even heard of somalia during the reagan administration ok boys and girls what was the ogadan war the money raised in band aid covered how much of the cost of which soviet client state to replace what catagory of weapon system lost in the aforementioned war why was the joke we arm the world really not that funny gonzo station is the designation for which usn op area and the primary threat targets in the area were ciao drieux all hands to the big sea of comedy all hands to the big sea of comedy last call of the wild of the humour lemmings
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10,733 | talk.politics.misc | re how many homosexuals are there i am so tired about all this debate on how many gays there are such arguments are basically worthless imho would it really matter if it were millions of people who are regularly denied access to housing employment and personal security or even only one as for death threats i happen to know from personal experience that gay people are far more likely to receive them based on political veiws or even personal philosophies related to the issue of sexual orientation than are heterosex uals not a week goes by that i personally or one of my friends is not physically or verbally harrassed for even appearing to be gay everyone is garaunteed certain unalienable rights under our current form of government in theory yet every day gay people are victimized by their local governments by the police force and by for the most part an uninformed and ignorant public is this democracy i don t think so a society s sense of justice is judged on the basis of the treatment of the people who make up that society all of those people and yes that includes gays lesbians and bisexuals whose crimes have no victims and who are as varied and diverse as the society of wich they are a part frank jordan d d d c c c gay arab bassoonists unite
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10,734 | talk.politics.misc | re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article stevethc nwnn t netcom com steveth netcom com steve thomas wri tes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu ryan c scharfy writes no social problem however great is worth destroying the freedom in america the destruction of freedom is never an answer to any social problem you can t even walk down the street at night alone in america because of drug s freedom my ass ryan why exactely can t you walk down the street safely it it because somebody will jump out from behind a shadow and sell you drugs hardly or mug me on the other hand it s certainly possible that you are walking down the steet of a bustling lawless part of your metropolitan area lawless and bustling read underground economy why must you pursue this fantasy that all crime is derived from underground economies there it may not be a very safe place to be at all unless of course you re there to buy some drugs i explained how the wod is a major cause of large scale crime in america the head of the guardian angles agrees with me legalize drugs and watch violent haaahaaaahaaaa crimes significantly decrease as for me well i think i ll go take a walk tonight alone i feel safe i just hope the fda fbi dea batf isn t back at my apartment confiscating all my property because they found my phone number written on a phone booth that was also used by a drug dealer yeah buddy this happens all the time tell me has it every really happened to you that s what i thought in that sense i don t feel safe i m an honest law abiding citizen drug laws included ftm why is it that i fear the government more than i fear criminals your foolish freedom my ass this is not what the founding fathers some of whom would be thrown in prison under today s drug laws had in mind all of these problems you come up with pale in comparison to the fact that the very fiber of our country the us constitution is being destroyed what good would it do must i ask again what part even if the wod actually reduced crime we just created a new class of criminals headed up the gang s current leader bill clinton the dea etc are private armies that answer directly to the president they possess advanced weapons and survailance technology does this sound familiar to anybody do you support mein furher clinton hmmmmmm you seem to have come out against the current adminstration why are you eager to endow it with even more power power of the most dangerous kind too all i ask is that drugs stay illegal i don t think it s too much to ask ryan
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10,735 | talk.politics.misc | re if drugs should be legalized how in article qrohrinnipe senator bedfellow mit edu wdstarr athena mit edu wil liam december starr writes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu ryan c scharfy said however legalizing it and just sticking some drugs in gas stations to be bought like cigarettes is just plain silly ryan c scharfy or the government could adopt the radical and probably unamerican idea that citizens are free to live their lives as they wish and simply decriminalize cocaine marijuana heroin lsd etc please explain why the idea of allowing recreational drugs to be bought like cigarettes is just plain silly after all it works just fine for nicotine wdstarr yeah cancer is pretty cool isn t it ryan please explain how the coolness or lack thereof of cancer is relevant to a discussion of the legalization of currently illegal recreational drugs for that matter please explain how it s even relevant to a discussion of currently legal recreational drugs such as tobacco wdstarr you said it worked so well with tobacco i was being fascisious i can t spell worth a damn look this is getting ridiculous first i think tobacco should be legal anybody who can t see the difference between tobacco and marijuana has got to be high ryan
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10,736 | talk.politics.misc | re nc vs hunt marine gay bashing in wilmington nc verdict kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu koppenhoefer kyle cramm writes tfarrell lynx dac northeastern edu thomas farrell writes funny but i ve seen a lot more than or seconds of that video and i still think the police involved were guilty i don t think there s any excuse they could possibly come up with that would make what they did ok i don t care if rodney king was satan himself there s just no excuse now whether they did it because he was black or they did it because they wanted to beat up on somebody they were arresting is another entirely separate question that i have insufficient information to make any kind of conclusion about how about the fact that you have a bunch of cops putting their lives o n the line day in and day out who are afraid as hell of a large black guy that took a large amount of punishment and refused submit oh yeah did you watch the start of the video when king got up out of his prone postion and charge the cops sorry the video cuts both was when you sit and watch it start to finish i have to agree with you the police may have carried it a bit too far but rodney king was no angel either and i don t think any guilty verdicts should have been returned i m sure you know why they handed down guilty verdicts on two of the officers it s quite simple really it was a compromise to avoid rioting in the places where minorities think it s right to riot i hate to say this but i would have liked to see them riot with everyone prepared it would be open season if your skin was even slightly brown hey my motto is you don t fuck with me or my stuff and you don t get killed it s just that simple tony anthony s pelliccio kd nr ae yes you read it right the system garlic sbs com man who went from no code thhhppptt to extra in flame retardent sysadmin exactly one year this is a calm sig
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10,737 | talk.politics.misc | re if drugs should be legalized how was good neighbor wdstarr athena mit edu william december starr writes however legalizing it and just sticking some drugs in gas stations to be bought like cigarettes is just plain silly plus i have never heard of a recommended dosage for drugs like crack ecstasy chrystal meth and lsd the minute report said it worked with cocaine cigarettes pot and heroin or the government could adopt the radical and probably unamerican idea that citizens are free to live their lives as they wish and simply decriminalize cocaine marijuana heroin lsd etc please explain why the idea of allowing recreational drugs to be bought like cigarettes is just plain silly after all it works just fine for nicotine i m all in favor of drug legalization but i do see some problems with it my hope is that people disposed to doing so would simply overdose quickly and be done with it before making a mess of thisgs let me get this straight medical treatment costs too much and is inefficient so we re going to let government make it better
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10,738 | talk.politics.misc | re race and violence i replied to your message however it is listed as a new topic with the title rnitedace and violence possibly line noise or error caused to post as a new topic i see it here as regards neal
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10,739 | talk.politics.misc | re the role of the national news media in inflaming passions in article qjtmjinnq elroy jpl nasa gov carlos beowulf jpl nasa gov carlos carrion writes i have come to the conclusion that the tv stations here in la want a riot to happen when the verdict comes in why is this surprising then the times can get a few more pulitzers the same way they did last year michael thomas mike gordian com i don t think bambi eyes will get you that flame thrower hobbes to calvin usnail irvine ave santa ana heights ca pabell fax
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10,740 | talk.politics.misc | re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article stevethc jgcr ht netcom com steveth netcom com steve thomas wri tes just try to justify the war on drugs i dare you a friend of mine who smoke pot every day and last tuesday took hits of acid is still having trouble aiming for the bowl when he takes a dump don t as me how i just have seen the results boy i really wish we we cut the drug war and have more people screwed up in the head steve thomas steveth rossinc com ryan
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10,741 | talk.politics.misc | national sales tax the movie well it seems the national sales tax has gotten its very own cnn news logo cool that means we ll be seeing it often man i sure am glad that i quit working or taking this seriously in if i kept busting my ass watching time go by being frustrated i d be pretty damn mad by now yeah free health care oh yeeaaaahhhh heh heh bill makes me feel like dancing more amazing predictions from the incredible bromeister we take you back to feburary th when the incredible bromeister predicted per middle class taxpayer in new taxes a national sales tax now for more aammmaaaazzzzzziinnnnggggg predictions i the nst will be raised from to by ooops they already did it okay then the nst will be raised from to by ii unemployment will rise iii tax revenues will decline deficit will increase we ll get another deficit reduction package by everyone will dance and sing yup i m gonna glancing at watch bail out of here at pm amble on down to the lake hang out sit in the sun and take it easy yeah i just wish i had the e mail address of total gumby who was saying that clinton didn t propose a nst to paraphrase hilary clinton i will not raise taxes on the middle class to pay for my programs to paraphrase bill clinton i will not raise taxes on the middle class to pay for my programs
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10,742 | talk.politics.misc | re high speed rail is bad bmich cs utexas edu brian keith michalk writes a few weeks ago i found out about some of the politics that is going on with the texas bullet train and was appalled at some of the apparent underhanded tactics to push this thing through without any public say whatsoever so i wrote up a short editorial thing and posted it hoping to get some discussion i suppose editorials don t do it here so now i am asking for the general opinion of the net about the proposed high speed train what do you think i personally think it is a stupid idea and that there are a few people somewhere who are going to get very rich from this deal my opinion is this in a society whose economy is primarily based on capitalism the role of government should be to provide those goods and services that need providing for the general public s good but government should supply those necessary goods and services only when it is impossible for a private enterprise or individual to make money from providing them i agree with some of the other posts that this train probably can not make money and will rely heavily on state tax dollars the question i think then becomes do we the general public need the train i certainly do not nor will i ever need this train in lubbock texas with the inexpensive air travel provided between dallas and houston i don t think people in dallas or houston need it either david mcgaughey texas tech university
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10,743 | talk.politics.misc | re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article c jh eu encore com rcollins ns encore com roger collins writes look at the whole picture not just randomly picked libertarian positions if government is not allowed to use non initiated force to achieve its goals than no special interest can influence the government to use non initiated force on their behalf either the government has force available to it or it doesn t the libertarian position is that the government can use force only when someone else uses force first even when that first force is not directed against the government but one of its citizens that all being true what safeguards do we have against the government claiming that some initiation of force on its part is really a response like the burning of the maine the tonkin gulf incident or the assault on waco i ask this not to argue but to understand followups to alt politics libertarian only cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
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10,744 | talk.politics.misc | return of the know nothing party in article organpipe uug arizona edu ece bigdog engr arizona edu david anderson writes in article c hdm wetware com drieux wetware com drieux just drieux writes well actually its a case of resolving whether one supports biblical literalism and the enerrancy of the bible or whether on wished to jump on the sexularhumanist detain all the true christians in death camps approach of the northern liberal abolitionists and their efforts to destroy the bible corrupt the moral fibre of american and lead the god fearing into the bondage of liberal degeneracy but i guess one needs to know a little about the bible christianity and american history mt st helens didn t spew such crap how do you manage drieux day in day out to keep it up so which are you advocating that you know nothing about american history or that you know nothing about the bible is this a restoration of the know nothing party ciao drieux ps what was the free negro sailor act about and what was the supreme court s ruling on it and more importantly how does this complicate the mythology that all blacks were slaves all hands to the big sea of comedy all hands to the big sea of comedy last call of the wild of the humour lemmings
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10,745 | talk.politics.misc | re stop the sexularhumanistoppression former my beloved damn ferigner s be taken over in article c hiu a spss com gregotts spss com greg otts writes in article c hcrw dn junior bintec de muftix junior bintec de juergen ernst guenther writes i never understood why canadians mexicans brazilians etc accusing us people for imperialism though think of them as the americans not few europeans think of you all as americans and of the us as a bunch of blasphemeous trash that god has to extinguish sooner or later m it would not be surprising that a continent that produced fascism communism and two world wars might have quite a few people who tend to think of other people as trash that should be extinguished sooner or later i seem to remember a gut called hitler who felt the same way one wonders what would be the fate of europe if god had extinguished this nation of blasphemeous trash before not that i believe in gods how many millions of people through out the world would have to die because no force could stop the insane bloody european imperialism thankfully the imperialistic us helped put an end to these games so that the rest of the world can sleep alittle more safely thus i could care less what not few europeans think so long as they can t do anything about it greg otts these opinions are entirely my own but remember that had god extinguished the blasphemous trash of europe and imperialism with it the united states would not exist today to put an end to those games begs the question which came first the chicken or the egg c brown
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10,746 | talk.politics.misc | re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article c jh eu encore com rcollins encore com writes in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes you don t specify the means through which the government is to be prevented from becoming the tool of business interests as a left wing big government conventional liberal i m just as willing as you are to vote against anti competitive regulations that favor auto dealers but what i hear from libertarians is a desire to limit incumbents terms to weaken government by eliminating its power to enforce antitrust laws and a desire to eliminate legislator s pay each strikes me as a particularly ineffective way to insure that auto dealers and other special interests cannot influence public policy in fact they seem clearly designed to accomplish the opposite if government is not allowed to use non initiated force to achieve its goals than no special interest can influence the government to use non initiated force on their behalf fine libertarians and anarchists are not alone in being uncomfortable with the use of state sponsored coercion the notion that coercion can be virtually eliminated in a society or more properly that once it is eliminated on the part of the state it is no longer worth serious consideration is a view that is peculiar to libertarians and anarchists for example does non initiated force coercion include tax collection does it include the minimal level of regulation of commerce envisioned by adam smith since coercion can be exercised by actors other than the state how is the state to deal with it exclusively through after the fact arbitration legal compulsion the means to reaching such a restricted government is another topic which i ll address briefly it certainly won t happen until libertarianism is the dominate philosophy what means do we have to make libertarianism the dominate philosophy statists run the education monopoly so we have to be creative the advocates for self government reports of their seminar participants embrace libertarianism that s the best means i ve seen yet we should lobby for compulsory seminar attendance in jest well i must admit that the picture of libertarians as amway participants is somewhat more reassuring than the idea of them trying to govern a complex conflictual industrial society i d venture to point out however that if libertarians couldn t convince at least of a group of seminar participants to embrace their philosophy their propaganda skills need to be honed frankly however it is no great trick to create a government for a society in which almost everyone is assumed to agree about what is a proper government policy once that is assumed all sorts of annoying formalities can be dispensed with elections police etc and as mr marx said the state will just wither away on the way there however would you like to explain how eliminating virtually all policies that restrain private coercion in the current society will help us to live happier lives or is it like socialism just some short term pain that we ll have to bear until everyone has had the benefit of re education through regular seminar training jsh roger collins steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls t r hofferbert ma bell
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10,747 | talk.politics.misc | re urgent ted frank wanted for killing aj teel in article apr eff org mnemonic eff org mike godwin writes in article c bvqy fld dscomsa desy de hallam zeus desy de writes but punishing the person for posting such a thing smacks of authoritarianism it s a deliberate act of fraud intended to cause harm you seem to be unclear about the legal meaning of fraud mere misrepresentation is not fraud your comment here is meant as a put down it fails for several reasons you have edited out the context of the action under discussion i never brought the legal definition up i use the english language and not the legal dialect the legal definition of fraud changes from one country to another in any case the context of the discussion is morality of censorship how does a posting from your site do any such thing especially if your site is a university do you know any person who believes that a university endorses every comment made from a university site that is why i refered specifically to a company good now do you know any person who believes that a company endorses every comment made from a university site you are extrapolating from the statement i made concerning a circumstance in which such an act of censorship would be permissable to the teel case if you had bothered to read the post instead of trying to prove how stupid you thought me you would have done rather better the mode of argument i was using was a form of rhetoric argument by example i describe a wide set of circumstances in which an action is permisable and demonstrate that they do not apply thus the action is not permisable obviously a company posting from a university adress would be squashed it would be contrary to the internet comercial use usenet does not distribute letterhead organization desydeutsches elektronen synchrotron experiment zeus bei hera i suggest strongly that if you mean for this to be taken as letterhead you get a better stationery designer now you are clutching at straws in the context of the discussion it was the fact of association between the company and the post that was important the typeface etc is inconsequential there are people on the net who are openly supporting the murder of members of my family sigh if you are implying that i am lying i suggest you read mark holohan and ulick staffords posts into soc culture british if you are suggesting that advocating murder is a trivial matter i would prefer that you state it directly certainly i oppose the right of dr sidiqui and the ayatolah khomenhi to call for the murder of salman rushdie incitement to murder is not part of what i consider legitimate freedom of speech as for your notion that employees can argue their different political views at their own expense could you explain precisely what expense you re talking about internet is not free the connection charges are quite expensive for comercial concerns could you give me a cost breakdown for the expense to your company attributable to an employee s posting a political view in disagreement with yours numbers please that is irrelevant the case is not the incremental cost but the facility cost if i decide that a company i am associated with should subscribe to usenet that usenet connection is the property of the company it is quite legitimate for a company to have a political or other agenda and regulate the use of its property in accordance with its policy for example if a microsoft employee were to post windows nt is crap don t buy it from a microsoft machine i would consider it reasonable for microsoft to sack that employee in the same way if a company decides that it has political objectives it might wish to regulate postings in a political manner this is no worse than rupert murdoch using his papers as a political platform for his views i was refering to the arrogance of your position quoting the words written by slave owners at me in the cause of freedom which words written by slave owners did i quote i don t recall quoting anyone ah yes you did not quote them merely refered to them your constitution is not considered sacrosanct in other parts of the globe nor have i assumed it is i don t consider the first amendment to have talismanic value you might just as well have attempted to argue from the king james bible to a muslim i was pointing out that your reasoning is parochial when with little effort you could have made a substantive point i made the effort apparently you made a certain effort to misunderstand me your article consisted of a reference to the first ammendment your signature and pretty well damn all else for an example of a uk publication that understands this try index on censorship i used to subscribe i would still if i was not moving index regularly publishes opinions by non americans who believe the first amendment represents appropriate free speech principles for all open societies see e g the opinions of the dissenting law lords in the spycatcher case are you refering to the initial hearings on an injunction or the judgments on the substantive case the initial hearings that the government won were judged on the not unresonable judgment that assertion by the government that the national interest might be harmed would be grounds for prior restraint the second set of hearings on the substance judged that the government had no case and that the official secrets act could not be used to suppress information in thwe public domain already the part that they won was over the copyright issue which is rather separate here again the issue of censorship is rather different in the case that information is divulged on the understanding that it will not be communicated to third parties the first ammendment certainly does not apply in this case as the numerous prosecutions of spies in the us proves the crux of the spycatcher affair was extrateritoriality of british law the censorship aspect of it arose as a result of the government s ludicrous attempts to prevent summary of the case in the book you haven t any reason to believe that anything i ve said has been reached unquestioningly only most of what you write for someone who purports to be opposed to argument from assertion you certainly get by on assertions a lot funny i saw that as a rejection of an assertion that you had made of course in rejecting an assertion i have to make a contrary assertion since this assertion is unprovable i left it at that so far i have not seen you demonstrate a command of the contrary opinion to your own you are attacking my anti censorship view because i dare to accept the validity of some pro censorship arguments while rejecting their conclusions plus i am not an absolutist i have this funny idea that the solution to this problem was not decided in by a group of white male gentry in secret session and sumarized in a single line furthermore i don t think that the issues are half as simple as you imply you may think that i am being anti american in disallowing recourse to the first ammendment it s just that this argument has no currency in the parts of the world where there is state censorship such as iran kewait and israel i don t pretend to have geared my discourse for all conceivable audiences i don t think that you have geered your discourse to any audience save that of proving that you are the only person wearing a white hat phill hallam baker
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10,748 | talk.politics.misc | re top ten excuses for slick willie s record setting disapproval rati in a previous article mbs psuvm psu edu mark mark sachs says in article qhr a d usenet ins cwru edu an cleveland freenet edu broward horne says it sure does appear that way doesn t it the attitude that people are stupid if they don t agree with you is not going to bring you great success in life free advice there hahahahahah oh christ oh hahahahah whew mark what on earth makes you think i give a fuck about being a success particularly now when i ll just the hell taxed out of me oh this is excellent holy christ besides let s ahem examine the record shall we broward clinton s going to taxe the holy fuck out of you mark no he s not only month i still get a laugh out of this one broward oh here comes a national sales tax clinton supporter oh no bill never said that want some more free predictions it always makes me smile to see george bush used to defend bill clinton can you imagine anything sadder than to be left with george bush as a final argument true the republicans did look pretty pathetic in november of yup they surely did almost as pathetic as clinton suppoters are looking in april of well chumbo i see my my watch here that my appointment at the lake is about hours past due you ll let me know who the full time working thing works out won t you i want to enjoy every minute of my free time and free health care the only reason i would have gone back to working thanks bill
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10,749 | talk.politics.misc | re clinton s immunization program in a previous article paul hsh com paul havemann says all together now c mon you know the words meet the new boss same as the old boss and the chorus we won t get fooled again hmmm can i eh get a little side bet on this one
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10,750 | talk.politics.misc | re clinton s immunization program in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jlinder magnus acs ohio state edu jeffrey s linder writes in article c fjsl is ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr c om mark wilson writes on the news last night clinton was bashing the republicans for stonewalling his so called stimulus package it seems that one small item within this package was going to pay for free immunizations for poor kids immunizations for children in this country are already free if you care to go have it done the problem is not the cost it is the irresponible parents who are to stupid or to lazy to have it done in case you haven t noticed clintonites are pushing a universal health care access program access here means that folks who do not give a damn about immunizing their children will have health care services delivered to their doorsteps disclaimer opinions expressed are mine not my employer s
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10,751 | talk.politics.misc | re the state of justice gm trial in article apr desire wright edu demon desire wright edu not a boomer writes a judge denied gm s new trial motion even though gm says it has two new witnesses that said the occupant of the truck was dead from the impact not from the fire thoughts it s kind of scary when you realize that judges are going to start denying new trials even when new evidence that contradicts the facts that led to the previous ruling appear on the other hand it would be kind of scary if there were never a final verdict because a party to litigation could keep saying oops i forgot to bring up this evidence and demand a new trial you get one bite at the apple or has the judge decided that the new witnesses are not to be believed shouldn t that be up to a jury it s up to general motors to find those witnesses in the first litigation you d be up in arms if a plaintiff suing general motors pulled the same stunt and made them relitigate an issue that they already lost it s not as if general motors couldn t file enough discovery motions to delay the trial until they found all the witnesses they wanted and what about members of the previous jury parading through the talk shows proclaiming their obvious bias against gm define obvious bias shouldn t that be enough for a judge to through out the old verdict and call for a new trial did gm move for a new trial on those grounds no perhaps they had a reason ted frank thf kimbark uchicago edu i m sorry the card says moops the u of c law school standard disclaimers
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10,752 | talk.politics.misc | re clinton s immunization program in article c jobh zt apollo hp com goykhman apollo hp com red herring writes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jlinder magnus acs ohio state edu jeffrey s linder writes in article c fjsl is ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr c om mark wilson writes on the news last night clinton was bashing the republicans for stonewalling his so called stimulus package it seems that one small item within this package was going to pay for free immunizations for poor kids immunizations for children in this country are already free if you care to go have it done the problem is not the cost it is the irresponible parents who are to stupid or to lazy to have it done in case you haven t noticed clintonites are pushing a universal health care access program access here means that folks who do not give a damn about immunizing their children will have health care services delivered to their doorsteps i ve read about more than a few of these programs that ran into problems in convincing parents to get their children immunized even when they were delivered to their doorstep i don t know maybe that sheet they have to be informed of about possible risks side effects and bad reactions scares them david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
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10,753 | talk.politics.misc | re top ten signs that it s the age of aquarius on pennsylvania avenue paolucci spot colorado edu paolucci paul writes in article c gpto kq newsserver technet sg ipser solomon technet sg ed ipser writes top ten signs that it s the age of aquarius on pennsylvania avenue biased and decidedly not as funny as dave stuff deleted i sure hope that someone somewhere is enjoying these lists stuff deleted i m no clinton fan but i m no ipser fan then why not simply stop reading them this isn t intended as a flame but your post reminds me of the old joke patient doctor it hurts when i do this doctor then stop doing that regards jeff
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10,754 | talk.politics.misc | re will italy be the next domino to fall in article c gk w j h newsserver technet sg ipser solomon technet sg ed ipser writes will italy be the next domino to fall socialism may have collapsed in eastern europe and the soviet disunion but it lingers on in western europe and the united states it remains the primary ideology in the hearts and minds of the liberal academia and media but all the political correctness they can muster may not be sufficient to hold back the economic forces that threaten to spread socialism s collapse from the second world to the first indeed it is becoming more apparent every day that socialism may not even survive the turn of the century ed of course has never demonstrated remarkable knowlege of socialism or any other political system come to that while the swedes have already discarded their third way and the french have made history by turning out the socialist party in a record setting defeat it is italy that appears most precariously on the edge of its political existence that leaves germany japan and the uk as examples of a country where the right wing government is on the verge of collapse oh and of course the usa which just elected a socialist government italy today is a basket case even by european standards it has introduced new taxes in months and public sector revenue is at or near the of gdp mark etc unfortunately you can t pin this on the left or the right both are to blame both sides are equally deep into the corruption scandal the only untained party is the northern league which is a bunch of nationalist separatists and the communist party which has collapsed in spite of this political gluteny it has an annual deficit exceeding the sum of all other ec countries and a public debt times that of latin america italy is understandably having serious trouble selling its treasury bonds in the markets and while italy is an extreme case it is anything but unique all european governments appear headed in the same direction in spite of their nominally non socialist governments unfortunately europeans being well europeans it is very unlikely that they will discover american style liberty instead they will likely lurch from socialism to fascism as quickly as they had moved from fascism to socialism never pausing along the way to reasseses the role of government itself i hope i am wrong ed should take a look at the budget deficit regan and bush created together before he starts to make claims about europe collapsing based on the budget deficits here none of them are serious on the usa scale and here in europe we have zero interest in ed ipser type freed thank you we do not want our countries to be run by a narrow elite of rich lawyers for the benefit of the super wealthy we are quite happy with social democracy and despite the fuss made in time and newsweek there is remarkably little being done to reverse the social welfare reforms brought in by socialism the problem with socialism is that it started with the aims of free education and health care and provision of the welfare state this has been achieved across the whole of europe only the usa is struggling to catch up the problem for socialism is what to do now it has succeeded nobody ever claimed that the collapse of socialism would be pretty the decline of the nation state will probably lead first to anarchy since politicians always cut essential services before pork los angeles has rampant crime and frantically waits for the next wave of riots but it has a spanking new subway that nobody wants to use and which like every other public transit system in the world will never be economically viable if you were trying to extort tax payers which would you cut first mass transit or police protection ed starts to discus la presumably he thinks that it is in europe on the other hand he most probably hasn t heard of a european city thus does the world hurtle toward chaos even as the st century approaches rather the opposite what is happening in italy is that the communist party has collapsed this has meant that the grand coalition between right and left wing parties to keep out the communists has also collapsed the magistrates have seized this opportunity to crack down hard on fraud and corruption and have arrested half the politicians the fact that the socialists are in charge this week is incidental the right is into the corruption just as baddly what looks likely to happen is the fringe parties are going to do much better in the next election most of the parliamentary deputies are going to get replaced and the parties are going to be forced to look to people who are free of any hint of corruption look out for a parliament of pavarotti s and porn stars phill hallam baker
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10,755 | talk.politics.misc | re return of the know nothing party in article c jlq bl wetware com drieux wetware com writes in article organpipe uug arizona edu ece bigdog engr arizona edu david anderson writes in article c hdm wetware com drieux wetware com drieux just drieux writes but i guess one needs to know a little about the bible christianity and american history mt st helens didn t spew such crap how do you manage drieux day in day out to keep it up so which are you advocating that you know nothing about american history or that you know nothing about the bible is this a restoration of the know nothing party go easy on him drieux it is the right of every american to know nothing about anything ciao drieux all hands to the big sea of comedy all hands to the big sea of comedy last call of the wild of the humour lemmings who said anything about panicking snapped authur garrett johnson this is still just culture shock you wait till i ve garrett ingres com settled into the situation and found my bearings then i ll start panicking douglas adams
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10,756 | talk.politics.misc | re foreign media reaction april part of in article apr r node hub org ndallen r node hub org nigel allen writes here is a press release from the united states information agency digest of foreign media reaction from the united states information agency april of to national desk contact anne chermak of the united states information agency washington april following is part one of a digest of foreign media reaction from april compiled by the united states information agency terrorism and world insecurity in recent editorials iran was universally recognized as te source of the double threat of state sponsored terrorism and islamic extremism but beyond this fear and condemnation journalists found little common ground that would compel both north and south and arab and non arab nations to work together to combat the global threat of terrorism for example egyptian and algerian papers were in the forefront in charging u s complicity in the current instability in the middle east those commentators asserted that the united states had promoted islamic fundamentalism during the afghanistan war and had further added to regional instability by alternately encouraging iraq and iran the cads the fact that this is precisely what the us was up to of course is not mentioned it is a fact that regan and bush sold arms to iran it is also a fact that they supported and armed iraq still this is state dept propaganda so none too surprizing india s papers weighed the pros and cons of helping the west to identify pakistan s role in promoting terrorism noting on the one hand that doing so could bring ruination to islamabad s kashmir cause but on the other could also bring india s security apparatus uncomfortably close to the cia and the mossad arab papers continued to portray iraq and libya as being unfairly treated by the un while israel remains unpunished for resolutions which it has violated in the case of lybia there is the problem that the us only decided that gadffii ordered the bombing after it needed to make peace with damascus during the gulf war one day the us is certain that its syria the next lybia for a strange reason the us will not provide evidence to lybian courts for extradition proceedings faced with similar demands the usa would reject them as would any other country concerning northern ireland president clinton s message of consolation to the victims of the warrington bombing was seen in british tabloids as signalling a tougher stance by the american government against violence by the ira the word is terrorism the problem is that after the behaviour of george bush the usa has an image abroad as doing precisely what it likes and is in its own interests then comming out with a dysney scripted sugary justification repeating a fitting combination of the words freedom dignity democaracy or of terrorism dictatorship etc as appropriate the usa could go quite far to mend the bridges with iran the people there are rather pissed off because the usa first supported the shah who they loathed and then supported saddam when he mounted an unprovoked attack hardly surprizing after the embassy hostage crisis but iran is meant to be the country run by unreasonable bigots not the usa so if there is to be movement it would be easier for the usa to move first off they could recognise iraqu s responsibility in initiating the iran iraq war providing technical assistance to iran to get it s oil production back up to capacity would also be a smart move at the moment iran is above it s opec ceiling if they had extra capacity they would use it and bring down the oild price further which is in our interests the iranian clerics would have an interest in seeking a raprochment simply because a permanent war footing is debilitating they also need western technology phill hallam baker
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10,757 | talk.politics.misc | re temper tantrums from the s in article apr pony ingres com garrett ingres com writes in article philc ht t gwa netcom com phil netcom com phil ronzone writes correct jfk was quite disgusting in that way the reports of the women that he coerced via power of the office are now in the dozens today we d call for immediate resignation for that kind of behaviour i guess coercing women into having sex is much worse than stealing breaking and entering rigging national elections starting secret wars that kill hundreds of thousands and using the powers of your office for personal gain like nixon did not garrett you are a really pathetic liar some of your charges are arguable but most of them are obvious lies i challenge you to present us with any evidence that nixon stole rigged a national election never mind elections or used the powers of his office for personal gain you can t because there is absolutely no evidence that any of these events occurred along with normalized relations with the prc normalizing relations with cambodia you must be joking we sponsored the overthrow of the cambodian government after repeated failed attempts of course your sad level of historical and political knowlege is probably best exemplified by the fact that you think prc stands for cambodia instead of red china
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10,758 | talk.politics.misc | who are the rich was re professors whining about pay candidate clinton promised to tax the rich and most folks thought that was a pretty nifty idea then president clinton said he wanted families who make more than to bear of the new tax burden and many were quick to complain that their six figure income does not make them one of the well to do it s particularly ironic to me that it s in those traditionally liberal enclaves of the bay area and academia where the wealthy are struggling so to fit themselves into the mantle of just regular working class folk nobody will ever admit to being rich everybody s middle class so who are the rich well i ll throw out some stats from the census and let you be the judge va negvpyr mzimmersc e qk fn netcom com mzimmers netcom com michael zimmers jevgrf in article qcdvbinn ti elroy jpl nasa gov fogarty sir c jpl nasa gov tim fogarty writes that would be about to thousand us and that is what tenured professors can expect to make for a phd with say years experience is a lot less than what he could be making in industry oh as a year veteran of silicon valley i ve seen precious few employment ads that call for phds and k is hardly chump change it s well above the median household income for the state bay area average household income is in the mid range national average is the bay area has nearly twice the national average of six figure income households vs the cost of living here may be high but i don t think it s twice the national average in los angeles modest home prices can be a square foot tract house in a bay area working class neighborhood goes for about i doubt that the los angeles market is all that different it would appear that this definition of modest is perhaps a bit immoderate so what they re no cheaper for those who are gainfully employed in california is not upper middle class it depends upon your definition it s clearly above average it is more than what two thirds of california households make seems to me that belonging to the upper one third is not an unreasonable definition of upper middle class note that if that professor s spouse earns they become one of clinton s rich families here s a breakdown of national california and bay area household incomes k k k k us the census bureau did some weird ca rounding here more like ba and to add a little prespective a minimum wage earner working hours week makes year the poverty line for a family of four is if they make up to twice that the government considers them to be working poor say we decide to call this the lower middle class then how bout k annual income is middle class k is upper middle class k is rich k is filthy rich and is bill gates make sense timr there s nothing surer the rich get rich and the poor get poorer in the meantime in between time ain t we got fun raymond egan
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10,759 | talk.politics.misc | re foreign media reaction april part of in article c jv a f dscomsa desy de hallam zeus desy de writes the usa could go quite far to mend the bridges with iran the people there are rather pissed off because the usa first supported the shah who they loathed and then supported saddam when he mounted an unprovoked attack hardly surprizing after the embassy hostage crisis but iran is meant to be the country run by unreasonable bigots not the usa so if there is to be movement it would be easier for the usa to move phill hallam baker it is also widely stated in non mainstream sources that the cia had a large part in the overthrow of the popular and popularly elected left leaning premier mossadegh in is this widely recognized outside the u s i have never seen it mentioned at all in mainstream u s media how about within iran dave kohr cs graduate student univ of illinois at urbana champaign work dcl home e mail drk cs uiuc edu one either has none or not enough
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10,760 | talk.politics.misc | re newsweek reports clinton approval ratings in article blue cis pitt edu psg pitt edu paul s galvanek writes when i heard the latest approval rating reported for clinton i laughed so hard i forgot the exact numbers maybe one of the clintonettes can refresh my memory has his rating dropped to or percent ha ha ha ha ha snick oh my either way it s still the lowest rating any president has ever mustered in his first days since these polls started being taken hum i guess this has some significance as opposed to having an incredible drop during the last days in office unfortuantely having a loss in the polls during the last days of office usually means no re election ask george he was finished before he started good one roooster thats hard to top the rooster
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10,761 | talk.politics.misc | re the state of justice in article apr desire wright edu demon desire wright edu not a boomer writes a judge denied gm s new trial motion even though gm says it has two new witnesses that said the occupant of the truck was dead from the impact not from the fire thoughts it s kind of scary when you realize that judges are going to start denying new trials even when new evidence that contradicts the facts that led to the previous ruling appear welcome to the conservative judiciary or has the judge decided that the new witnesses are not to be believed shouldn t that be up to a jury i think scalia s point was that you get one chance if new information comes out later tough if the conviced want justice they have to hope the governor is feeling charitable there s a guy on death row in texas that was denied a new trial dispite evidence of his inocents and what about members of the previous jury parading through the talk shows proclaiming their obvious bias against gm shouldn t that be enough for a judge to through out the old verdict and call for a new trial whatever happened to jurors having to be objective it got swept away in the reagan revolution russ anderson disclaimer any statements are my own and do not reflect upon my employer or anyone else c ex twins jack morris innings pitched runs world series mvp
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10,762 | talk.politics.misc | re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu ryan c scharfy writes in article stevethc jgcr ht netcom com steveth netcom com steve thomas wri tes just try to justify the war on drugs i dare you a friend of mine who smoke pot every day and last tuesday took hits of acid is still having trouble aiming for the bowl when he takes a dump don t as me how i just have seen the results boy i really wish we we cut the drug war and have more people screwed up in the head i ll answer you re sarcasm with more sarcasm boy it looks like the wod is working really good to stop people from being screwed up in the head given that example issue your friend got his drugs legal or not legal he ll continue to get them issue why should i as somebody who does not use illegal drugs and who is not screwed up have to pay for this idiot s problems he s not doing anybody any harm except himself the wod on the other hand is an immediate threat to my life and livelyhood tell me why i should sacrafice this to that steve thomas steveth rossinc com
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10,763 | talk.politics.misc | re the tories could win the lottery clinton gst in article apr news columbia edu gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes cmk world std com charles m kozierok writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes secondly any canadian who has worked and participates in the insurance it s a negative option you have to explicitly decline it knows that the premium is deducted separately yes and some americans actually have a problem with having more of their money taken from them to pay for others health care but note again the canadian and german health insurance is voluntary not true i am required to have insurance by law the method of collection effectively makes it a tax but like basic plus cable you have to tell them that you don t want it for example hutterite colonies in western canada are not part of it mennon and hutter were fundamentalist protestants from germany whose followers left for the new world mennonites are a very diverse lot while hutterites are similiar to the amish the american idea being floated today gives you no option but to live off the land the selfish bastards that they are unfortunately that number has diminished recently but once president pinocchio gets through with us i hope for a reversal of trend well here we have the right hoping for more selfish bastards pity they don t look at what years of the regan bush selfish bastard ecconomy has done to the country elect a selfish bastard government and they will run the country for themselves thats why they are selfish bastards bush and regan gave tax breaks for the ultra rich and paid for them by borrowing against the incomes of the middle class phill hallam baker
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10,764 | talk.politics.misc | re the role of the national news media in inflaming passions in article apr gordian com mike gordian com michael a thomas writes in article qjtmjinnq elroy jpl nasa gov carlos beowulf jpl nasa gov carlos carrion writes i have come to the conclusion that the tv stations here in la want a riot to happen when the verdict comes in why is this surprising then the times can get a few more pulitzers the same way they did last year i suppose all media want something to happen otherwise what would they report that s their job duhhh to me but it s not so much surprising that they want a riot as it is amazing how they carry that desire across in not so subtle ways at least to me carlos i as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race abraham lincoln ames elroy jpl devvax beowulf pituco carlos
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10,765 | talk.politics.misc | re temper tantrums from the s in article apr oracle us oracle com mfriedma us oracle com michael friedman writes in article apr pony ingres com garrett ingres com writes in article philc ht t gwa netcom com phil netcom com phil ronzone writes correct jfk was quite disgusting in that way the reports of the women that he coerced via power of the office are now in the dozens today we d call for immediate resignation for that kind of behaviour i guess coercing women into having sex is much worse than stealing breaking and entering rigging national elections starting secret wars that kill hundreds of thousands and using the powers of your office for personal gain like nixon did not garrett you are a really pathetic liar isn t name calling fun some of your charges are arguable but most of them are obvious lies i challenge you to present us with any evidence that nixon stole rigged a national election never mind elections or used the powers of his office for personal gain what do you think happened at watergate what do you think they broke into the building for it wasn t to just look around do i have to draw you a picture you can t because there is absolutely no evidence that any of these events occurred whatever who said anything about panicking snapped authur garrett johnson this is still just culture shock you wait till i ve garrett ingres com settled into the situation and found my bearings then i ll start panicking douglas adams
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10,766 | talk.politics.misc | re re fillibuster in article apr martha utcc utk edu pa utkvm utk edu david veal writes come to that under the original plan there wasn t meant to be anything much for the federal government to do except keep the british out that s also untrue but at least we re wandering a little closer toward reality that the articles of confederation fell apart is enough proof it was there for just a tad bit more well yes and no the federalist papers are propaganda and it is therefore difficult to determine precisely what maddison etc were up to from them they certainly emphasised a limited role for the federal government but this was not necessarily their true position and like the house of lords which it is copied from it was given pretty wide powers unfortunately they started to use them and thus the gridlock set in i wasn t aware the house of lords had wide powers i was under the impression is was pretty powerless compared to the house of commons and certainly didn t have almost equal their powers the senate is restricted only that it may not introduce bills relating to raising revenue the senate was less powerful than the house of lords in the period in question the stripping of the powers of the house of lords did not occur until and david llloyd george s budget even despite this the house of lords has considerable power even today and is far from a rubber stamping body my reading of the constitution and other writings gives me absolutely no reason to believe the senate wasn t intended to make use of their law making powers in fact grid lock appears to have been designed into the system with the senate being a more deliberative body to act as a check on the more often elected house the system is meant to be slow to react the problem is that it ended up a bit too slow on what basis do you suggest that the senate was supposed to be some sort of rubber stamp for the house you ll note that while the president s veto may be over ridden the house can t do anything about a veto by the senate the presiden t veto was meant to be entirely separate until bush abused it in a quite extraordinary manner it was used more in accord with the intent of being a check on unreasonable legislation the veto was clearly regarded as a completely last gasp measure its use was meant to be restricted to preventing the legislature interfering with the actions of the executive the senate is not meant to be exactly a rubber stamp body it is meant as a check on unrestrained legislation that is the extra measure built into the constitution in favour of the status quo of the representatives of the states is not a reasonable restriction
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10,767 | talk.politics.misc | re fillibuster in article c dsyr ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com mark wilson writes in article c buph fcp dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes the filibuster does not make sense because the senate is elected as a last gasp assembly it is designed to be the repository of doddery old men with no power phill i don t know which senate you re discussing but it ain t ours phill probably thinks that the us senate is supposed to be the equivalent to the uk s house of lords the status of the house of lords today is quite different to its status in which just goes to show that where the us is concerned phill still has no idea what he is talking about maddison and hamilton were both studying existing forms of government for several years before they wrote the federalist papers that the us system is based to a considerable degree on the uk model is pretty widely accepted at the time there was no other major country with a representative body the french plebicite had been suppressed for years and its restoration eight years later would mark the start of the french revolution after the uk system the major influences were the dutch system and of course the classical systems nobody seriously suggests that rome or greece were models though because the political systems of both countries were acknowleged disasters the main lesson learnt from greece was that unless a federal state was constructed a war would be inevitable the greek democracies were always fighting amongst themselves which is how rome managed to invade had the federal consitution been rejected the new roman empire in the shape of britain would quite certainly have reabsorbed much of the colonies in due course moreover the states would have been at each others throats as soon as the louisiana purchase situation arose during the napoleonic period phill hallam baker
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10,768 | talk.politics.misc | re the state of justice demon desire wright edu not a boomer writes a judge denied gm s new trial motion even though gm says it has two new witnesses that said the occupant of the truck was dead from the impact not from the fire thoughts how can a witness tell that someone in a burning truck is dead rather than unconscious it s kind of scary when you realize that judges are going to start denying new trials even when new evidence that contradicts the facts that led to the previous ruling appear or has the judge decided that the new witnesses are not to be believed shouldn t that be up to a jury what kind of witnesses if we are talking about witnesses who were at the accident or were otherwise directly involved e g paramedics emergency room doctors etc then they should have been used at the first trial you don t get a new trial because you screwed up and forgot to call all of your witnesses if we are talking about new expert witnesses who will offer new interpretations of the data note that the loser can always find such witnesses if this were grounds for a new trial then the loser could always get a new trial and keep doing so until the loser becomes a winner and then the other side would come up with new expert witnesses tim smith
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10,769 | talk.politics.misc | none in article apr kadsma kodak com pajerek telstar kodak com don pajerek writes what i see is that the media is reasonably fair but is seen as liberal by conservatives and conservative by liberals not that i think anyone cares but this pattern using other examples of course was discussed years ago by aristotle in nicomachean ethics note that you can t use this insight to reason backwards e g since the conservatives see the media as liberal and the liberals see the media as conservative the media are fair though i ve seen this reasoning implied don pajerek standard disclaimers apply ken miner kuhub cc ukans edu nobody can explain everything to everybody opinions are my own g k chesterton
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10,770 | talk.politics.misc | mow bodycount any thoughts on who is going to count all of the gorgeous bodies at the mow the press the white house staff the most junior senator the king of the motss bi just curious as to whose bias we are going to see when the numbers get brought out bram bram currie bram u washington edu
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10,771 | talk.politics.misc | incredible new b b s wow did i discover a great bbs it s called sovereignty lies in the people bbs k baud free and confidential fictitious names ok subjects and files contained on the bbs find out how the government has been scamming us state citizenship documents and issues are you a california republic citizen or a u s federal citizen remember there were only state citizens before the th amendment one is subject to federal income tax one isn t did you volunteer to surrender your state citizenship when you got your social security number which one are you tax laws and issues beat the irs traffic laws and issues beat traffic tickets can you answer this one what law allows a police officer to arrest you without a warrant when he issues you a ticket religious truth issues are all religions scams are all christian religions of the great creator god trust documents and issues the sysop told me that instructions to beat traffic tickets will be on the bbs shortly beat traffic tickets without going to court the bbs is great spread the word also how come i don t hear more people talking about the federal reserve bank just ask yourself these questions why would anyone borrow money from themselves at interest the federal government does not not the federal reserve bank is private the american people are being ripped off royally of the income tax goes to pay on the federal debt to the federal reserve bankers not one dime goes for services services like the military and welfare come from excise taxes and the like why do we the american people stand for this check out the new bbs
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10,772 | talk.politics.misc | re re fillibuster in article c jpl cz dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes in article apr martha utcc utk edu pa utkvm utk edu david veal writes come to that under the original plan there wasn t meant to be anything much for the federal government to do except keep the british out that s also untrue but at least we re wandering a little closer toward reality that the articles of confederation fell apart is enough proof it was there for just a tad bit more well yes and no the federalist papers are propaganda and it is therefore difficult to determine precisely what maddison etc were up to from them there are a couple of ways to look at them one is we want you to support this constitution so we ll say anything that we think will appeal to you or the more straightforward this is why we think what we ve suggested in this constitution is a good idea you clearly consider the former to be the primary situation they certainly emphasised a limited role for the federal government but this was not necessarily their true position well i know hamilton was a dyed in the wool monarchist and probably the authoritarian extreme to jefferson s democratic impules but what would you suggest as a means of determining their opinions on the government if we don t consider what they wrote about the government and is writing in support of something automatically propoganda to the point we must assume it is untrue or that they are saying what they don t believe and like the house of lords which it is copied from it was given pretty wide powers unfortunately they started to use them and thus the gridlock set in i wasn t aware the house of lords had wide powers i was under the impression is was pretty powerless compared to the house of commons and certainly didn t have almost equal their powers the senate is restricted only that it may not introduce bills relating to raising revenue the senate was less powerful than the house of lords in the period in question if the senate was less powerful than the house of lords than we d almost have to state that the house of representatives was also in fact they both were because the british government had much greater power than did the american system my reading of the constitution and other writings gives me absolutely no reason to believe the senate wasn t intended to make use of their law making powers in fact grid lock appears to have been designed into the system with the senate being a more deliberative body to act as a check on the more often elected house the system is meant to be slow to react the problem is that it ended up a bit too slow i disagree the system is not too slow it was simply designed to handle less than it has demanded that it handle as somebody in washington put it whose name i forget congress has become everybody s city council congress is more than capable of quick action and has more than enough power and time on its hands if it confined itself to what its original jurisidiction was and allowed more local autonomy it is not a case of the system of government they created failing but that it is operating under a set of conditions they specifically wanted to avoid namely a concentration of power it would seem then that the proper thing to do is not to reduce the power of either house in some attempt to grease the wheels all you ll get then is a system which moves quicker to do stupid things it would make more sense to make more decisions at a local level on what basis do you suggest that the senate was supposed to be some sort of rubber stamp for the house you ll note that while the president s veto may be over ridden the house can t do anything about a veto by the senate the presiden t veto was meant to be entirely separate until bush abused it in a quite extraordinary manner it was used more in accord with the intent of being a check on unreasonable legislation please explain to me how bush abused the veto in an extraordinary manner the veto was clearly regarded as a completely last gasp measure its use was meant to be restricted to preventing the legislature interfering with the actions of the executive i fail to see where any restrictions implied or otherwise were placed on the veto it could just as easily have been read as a means to put a check on democratically popular but unwise in the executive s opinion policies there is no limit in the constitution to the president s veto power regarding what a bill is for previous presidents have used the veto for any number of reasons most usually having something to do with their agenda i am really curious how you single bush out as the president who abused vetos the senate is not meant to be exactly a rubber stamp body it is meant as a check on unrestrained legislation that is the extra measure built into the constitution in favour of the status quo of the representatives of the states is not a reasonable restriction why is it not a reasonable restriction because senators is the magic holy number upon which laws must be based if senators feel safe enough with their state constituencies to stand up and fillibuster isn t that enough to indicate there s a sufficient question as to whether a law is a good idea or not to re evaluate it why one earth should be sufficient to enact a law which covers million people in very very diverse places and living in radically different conditions why shouldn t a super majority be required any system in which the simple majority is given absolute power to ignore the minority then the minority will be ignored i do not see this as a positive thing and for all that i m sure the republicans are looking for pork as much as the democrats they ve got some legitimate objections to the legislation in question david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
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10,773 | talk.politics.misc | re nlns fascism with a friendly face who wants to look through the bars at some reactionary liberal conspiracy theory idiots and see how they rant and rave at the erosion of their populist support this is very typical of the elitist liberal attitude that the people are incapable of thinking for themselves this elitist attitude will be the eventual undoing of the arrogant liberal tide sweeping america as the people begin to realize more and more that they are being treated like errant children and robbed of their freedoms by a bunch of utopian arrogent socialist jerks in article in talk politics misc new liberation news service nlns igc apc org writes subject nlns fascism with a friendly face lines from new liberation news service nlns subject nlns fascism with a friendly face written pm apr by nlns igc apc org in igc nlns news nlns packet fascism with a friendly face does rush limbaugh remind you of anyone daevid bornhuetter machen the madison edge the main difference between adolf hitler and rush limbaugh is that hitler was original and showed initiative mort sahl on the tom snyder radio show abc radio network october although i find myself often disagreeing with the populist rationale of mr limbaugh i find him entertaining and i often agree with his conclusions the fact that he sends liberal reactionaries like these idiots through the roof makes him all the more entertaining nlns believe it or not i was planning this comparative review of mein kampf and limbaugh s transcribed rant the way things ought to be before sahl issued his comparative review as usual sahl s was independent and sharp as a scalpel my effort can only dream of comparing favorably to mort s at least it has a fairly popular orginating premise everyone i d mention the idea to thought it was either divinely inspired or at least past due for delivery those reactions are based on parallels that should be obvious to the most peripheral observer of the acts of those false prophets both are noted for their galvanizing oratorical skills which they both used with passion to generate a political cult of massive numerical proportions in fact limbaugh claims to have an audience of just over million almost identical to the number of votes cast for hitler in the april german election both used a myopic social perspective to build the cult and enthusiastically amputated facts from the record to fabricate their ideological quilt actually i find limbaugh s oratory less than sizzling and his debating skills sometimes lacking even though his conclusions are often correct i would suggest that a bankrupt leftist ideology that hopes to use concentrated political power and a loaded gun to force everyone to do the right things where right is defined by the elitist academics who lead the movement is showing an acute case of myopic social perspective not to mention arrogance and utter stupidity limbaugh is certainly far from perfect but his opponents in the established body politic and the media are the ones arguing for federal control of virtually all aspects of the lives of the citizenry and for the elimination of local control over affairs public perhaps limbaugh has a following because the people are tired of being treated like errant children by a self important group of arrogant controlling myopic people who have no understanding of how life operates outside of the oughta be s inside their own hopelessly closed minds the last point is glaringly documented by passages in the opening pages of both books hitler s example is when on page he claims the german nationalist terrorist leo schlageter he bombed part of a railway line between dusseldorf and duisburg being caught in the act in was betrayed to france by a representative of his government when there has never been any factual foundation for such a statement in fact the governments of both the reich and prussia as well as the vatican actively intervened to save him from execution and almost succeeded ok let us take your word for that and work with it a nice specific incident limbaugh follows suit by making the hysterically sarcastic claim in his introduction that in a school or during a commencement ceremony or many other public places god is unconstitutional of course it s not god but the official imposition of particular concepts of god against an individual s will that s unconstitutional but limbaugh is too gleeful in his talent for distortion to want you to know that hmmm congress shall pass no law regarding an establishment of religion nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof liberal translation the federal government as long as it is run by liberals may force local school districts to include certain iconic content in christmas displays while prohibiting others i think limbaugh has you on this one it seems to me that he is arguing for less imposition of the federal government into religion nice job on the specificity of that one too analysis of historical modern communication media deleted but as mort sahl also observed on the radio the other night some cloutmeister of the radical right wants limbaugh to be a focal point of their propoganda and remember sahl is an al haig conservative these days mort might not know exactly who rush s equivalent of rodolf hess is the book itself suggests ed mclaughlin the former president of abc radio and now limbaugh s partner in efm media the radio program s production company but mort himself is a veteran of the talk show having hosted them in new york washington and los angeles he knows what evil lurks in the hearts of major market media men he knows that limbaugh could not have collected his audience had not the opportunity been placed on a silver platter and handed to him limbaugh earns his money just as honestly as al capone did it s almost worthy of a rico indictment ah yes it is a conspiracy of profound proportions methinks that you may be a bit resentful of mr limbaugh s success because you attribute it primarily to luck how after all could anyone with profound differences of opinion from yourself have become successful without the operation of conspiracy or blind luck do you feel this same level of knee jerk resentment against lottery winners or do you congratulate them on their good fortune on questions of social issues there is an overabundance of material in the limbaugh book that seems to echo hitler s venom for example this should be great fun since it is the liberal movement in america that is pushing the hardest for centralized fascist control of the people and business government business partnership indeed and mr limbaugh is the populist nemesis of that movement i have read mr limbaugh s book and although it was not the most literary piece i have read in recent memory it certainly did not contain venom at all let alone venom comparable to an individual who callously murdered millions out of racism on their own qualifications to control society hitler out of the host of sometimes millions of people who individually more or less clearly and distinctly guess the truth partly perhaps understand it one man author s emphasis must step forward in order to form with apodeictic force out of the wavering world of imagination of the great masses granite principles and to take up the fight for their sole correctness until out of the playing waves of a free world of thought a brazen rock of uniform combination of form and will arises page a very serious tone in that oratory limbaugh who needs the media when they ve got me the show is devoted exclusively to what i think the phrase with half my brain tied behind my back to make it even denotes the egress of mental aptitude i require to engage and demolish liberals and others who disagree with me it might take four or five years but i m convinced the media will slowly and reluctantly come around to my way of thinking kicking and screaming all the way pages and respectively you neglect to mention that mr limbaugh have you ever listened to his show btw continuously encourages his audience to think for themselves rather than blindly following any media icon himself included you yourself mention that he makes no bones about his show being strictly about his own opinions he also adopts a rather satirical approach and presumes his audience to be intelligent enough to distinguish satire from seriousness and he says as much this is in contrast to the average mass media show in which the audience is treated as society s intellectual lowest common denominator i am sure that adolf hitler was a master of satire i am sure he was just kidding when he said that the jews were the cause of germany s problems and needed to be exterminated on religion as the basis of a nation hitler in this world human culture and civilization are inseperably bound up with the existence of the aryan his dying off or his decline would again lower upon this earth the dark veils of a time without culture he who dares to lay hand upon the highest image of the lord sins against the benevolent creator of this miracle and helps in the expulsion from paradise page this is not religion it is clearly a perverse worship of race since christ was a jew it seems quite unlikely that hitler s characterization of the aryan as the highest image of the lord fits with christian doctrine limbaugh america was founded as a judeo christian country but our intellectual and political elites are often either hostile or ambivalent toward religion people for whom belief in god is at best a charming superstition have managed to ban prayer from the public schools for the last thirty years is it only a coincidence that the quality of american education has declined ever since pages private religious schools have a vastly better record of success than publicly funded schools american history is indeed primarily judeo christian i suppose that mr limbaugh pointing out facts is equivalent to adolf hitler worshiping the aryan race i think you might be reaching just a wee bit here on popular culture as a reason for social collapse hitler the fight against the poisoning of the soul has to set in one has only to look at the menus of our movie houses vaudevilles and theatres and one can hardly deny that this is not the right kind of food theatre art literature movies the press billposters and window displays must be cleaned of the symptoms of a rotting world and put into the service of a moral idea of state and culture pages and definite suggestion that the government should control the entertainment industry here limbaugh today hollywood is in trouble the reason is that hollywood has forgotten who its audience is they make fun of people who believe in god they ridicule the traditional family heterosexuality and monagamy they disparage american heroes page just a guess here but i don t think that mr limbaugh would advocate government control of hollywood you should perhaps call his radio show to confirm this i believe this is more a criticism of hollywood and the depraved moral values it espouses not an advocation of government control of hollywood s liberals on the other hand want to have complete government control of our school systems so that the government can teach the people at an early age the right way to view religion and morality i believe mr limbaugh is against this as his satirical use of the young heads full of mush hyperbole indicates on the news meida hitler the activity of the so called liberal press was the work of gravediggers for the german people and the german reich one can pass by in silence the marxist papers of lies it s task is only to break the people s folkish and national spine in order to make it ripe for the yoke of slavery of international capital and its masters the jews page pretty strong conspiracy theory insinuated here with an implicit plea for government power to be used to break up the conspiracy limbaugh elements of the media have jumped on the bandwagon of leftist causes the cynical journalist of the past has been replaced in many cases by an enthusiastic cheerleader for causes during the gulf war cnn correspondent bernard shaw said cnn is a global network we can t take sides cant take sides if they don t realize that their freedom lies in the united states of america and that therefore they should defend this nation they are hopelessly misguided and may i suggest flirting with megalomania pages and indication here that elements of the media since career is a self selected categorization perhaps an inferred larger percentage than represented in the populace at large has a leftist bias doesn t sound too unreasonable no insinuation that cnn should not report in an objective fashion only that for reporters to say that they do not have any personal bias in the situation is disingenuous to megalomaniacal you may disagree and it may well be exagerrated but it is not an unreasonable opinion and mr limbaugh goes well out of his way to make sure that his audience knows that these are his opinions unlike most other reporting that purports to achieve perfect objectivity but in actuality will in some degree or other in a statistical sense reflect the biases of the reporters who is being disingenuous here mr shaw or mr limbaugh again you should ask mr limbaugh himself but i expect that he would oppose government control of the media to continue these comparative excerpts is certainly possible but ultimately too depressing to take in one reading it is indeed depressing to see such myopia and tiresome liberal arrogance liberals love to play games with paradigms as a way of discrediting people who disagree with them why don t you challenge conservative ideology on an intellectual level rather than engaging in ludicrous comparisons perhaps the underpinnings of your ideology are intellectual only in that they exist in your mind not the real world after putting these books down there is one undeniable fact that haunts me in the s adolf hitler fed depressed and frightened germans the opiate of hatred of those around them in turn it allowed germans to hand their collective national power to the nazis in the s rush limbaugh is doing the very same thing distributing hatred to depressed and frightened americans in turn it is helping the american radical right to maintain its power base as the year nightmare of the reagan bush era comes to an end hoping to rebuild it into their hopes for the fascist states of america perhaps there are a few among the intellectually challenged who percieve rush limbaugh as a hate monger but in my experience he has been spreading laughter at the ludicrous self importance of the left not hatred as to mr bush you may be correct about his fascist economic leanings mr reagan on the other hand did his best to reverse the fascist trend of government involvement in business mr clinton is increasing fascism in america through business government partnership and increased levels of taxation perhaps you should not have skipped your vocabulary classes in grade school and if limbaugh is not as repellant a hitler it is only because the radical right utilizes limbaugh as its own gateway opiate one can only wonder what the ultimate drug is they plan to hook america on hmmm seems to me that limbaugh is not in any way comparable to hitler because he has not murdered six million jews and many many others out of racism i come from a mixed race family so i am quite well attuned to racism i don t hear any coming from rush limbaugh the only place i hear racism coming from these days and being taken seriously is from the liberal left the liberal left is the movement i see trying to get america hooked on the opiates of socialized medicine socialized transportation socialized education etc the left already has america hopelessly addicted to that liberal drug the social security chain letter it is quite clear to me that while the hitler analogy does not really apply to either rush limbaugh or william jefferson clinton if one of the two is closer than the other it is clearly the fascist clinton the madison edge can be reached at po box madison wi this is the same address as idiots anonymous isn t it matt freivald liborgalism thinking is irrelevant integrity is irrelevant free speech is irrelevant private property is irrelevant personal responsibility is irrelevant conservativism is futile you will be assimilated these are my opinions only and not those of my employer
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10,774 | talk.politics.misc | re mow bodycount any thoughts on who is going to count all of the gorgeous bodies at the mow the press the white house staff the most junior senator the king of the motss bi just curious as to whose bias we are going to see when the numbers get brought out probably law enforcement people park service police and d c cops who will use aerial photographs and extrapolate based on the density of the crowd in small regions these sort of techniques derive from army intelligence and cia methods of estimating troop strength and tend to be methodologically skewed to always come up with inflated numbers so as to justify bigger budgets steve
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10,775 | talk.politics.misc | abolish selective service the selective service registration should be abolished to start with the draft is immoral whether you agree with that or not we don t have one now and military experts agree that the quality of the armed forces is superior with a volunteer army than with draftees finally the government has us on many lists in many computers the irs social security admistration and motor vehicle registries to name a few and it can find us if it needs to maintaining yet another list of people is an utter waste of money and time let s axe this whole department and reduce the deficit a little bit dave borden borden m harvard edu
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10,776 | talk.politics.misc | re clinton s immunization program in article c jobh zt apollo hp com goykhman apollo hp com red herring writes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jlinder magnus acs ohio state edu jeffrey s linder writes in article c fjsl is ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr c om mark wilson writes on the news last night clinton was bashing the republicans for stonewalling his so called stimulus package it seems that one small item within this package was going to pay for free immunizations for poor kids immunizations for children in this country are already free if you care to go have it done the problem is not the cost it is the irresponible parents who are to stupid or to lazy to have it done i don t know where you live but this is not the case nationawide perhaps your state or municipality has put together the funds to do so but in my area and most areas where i know people immunizations cost sorry to shatter your stereotypes in case you haven t noticed clintonites are pushing a universal health care access program access here means that folks who do not give a damn about immunizing their children will have health care services delivered to their doorsteps disclaimer opinions expressed are mine not my employer s
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10,777 | talk.politics.misc | re the tories could win the lottery clinton gst oh boy it s the in famous phill hallam baker in article c jy gk dscomsa desy de hallam zeus desy de writes in article apr news columbia edu gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes cmk world std com charles m kozierok writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes but like basic plus cable you have to tell them that you don t want it for example hutterite colonies in western canada are not part of it mennon and hutter were fundamentalist protestants from germany whose followers left for the new world mennonites are a very diverse lot while hutterites are similiar to the amish the american idea being floated today gives you no option but to live off the land the selfish bastards that they are unfortunately that number has diminished recently but once president pinocchio gets through with us i hope for a reversal of trend well here we have the right hoping for more selfish bastards pity they don t look at what years of the regan bush selfish bastard ecconomy has done to the country how about what years of tax and spend big government institutionalized dependency and out of control good intentions at others expense has done to the country elect a selfish bastard government and they will run the country for themselves thats why they are selfish bastards bush and regan gave tax breaks for the ultra rich and paid for them by borrowing against the incomes of the middle class yeah right and clinton is any different please he is just a better lia i mean politician you think slick and his gang of elitist socialist academics will lead us to the promised land don t hold your breath charles
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10,778 | talk.politics.misc | re capital gains tax increase loses money in apr midway uchicago edu thf midway uchicago edu sez in article apr desire wright edu demon desire wright edu not a boomer writes no i m saying any long term investor the ones likely to have large capital gains would be foolish to sell in order to avoid a tax hike that a might disappear in any given year and b be overcome in a year or two by accumlated gains to which my response is so what not all people who pay capital gains taxes are long term investors more than enough of them aren t for there to be huge blip whenever capital gains taxes get raised i never said that everyone would find this advantageous i said that more than enough would for the result to be readily noticeable and distort trends even if brett s eventual return figures were correct and they clearly weren t he d still be wrong about the cause for the blip because he fails to consider basic factors as ted notes not everyone is a long term investor one might find oneself as i did in late anticipating expenses in the near term that require selling off holdings given the choice between waiting a few weeks and taking an extra tax hit or selling in december with preferential tax treatment only a fool would choose the former the fact that brett can now construct post hoc calculations of what would have been more beneficial to investors is in many respects beside the point there was plenty of money style advice given to unsophisticated investors in late to sell now and save on taxes in case anyone missed it there was no shortage of similar advice late last year in the nytimes e g even though that advice was based not on the foregone conclusion of enacted law as in but merely on the assumption that clinton would raise tax rates without capping cg taxes contrary to the current proposal it s nice to think that investors always behave in their optimal economic interest like assuming weightless ropes and frictionless pulleys though this sort of thinking often fails to describe accurately what happens in the real world moral always choose the right sort of parents before you start in to be rough george ade mark eckenwiler eck panix com cmcl panix eck
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10,779 | talk.politics.misc | re fillibuster in article c jpl cz dscomsa desy de hallam zeus desy de writes in article apr martha utcc utk edu pa utkvm utk edu david veal writes and like the house of lords which it is copied from it was given pretty wide powers unfortunately they started to use them and thus the gridlock set in i wasn t aware the house of lords had wide powers i was under the impression is was pretty powerless compared to the house of commons and certainly didn t have almost equal their powers the senate is restricted only that it may not introduce bills relating to raising revenue the senate was less powerful than the house of lords in the period in question the stripping of the powers of the house of lords did not occur until and david llloyd george s budget even despite this the house of lords has considerable power even today and is far from a rubber stamping body just how much power does the house of lords have now who said anything about panicking snapped authur garrett johnson this is still just culture shock you wait till i ve garrett ingres com settled into the situation and found my bearings then i ll start panicking douglas adams
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10,780 | talk.politics.misc | re to be or not to be a disaster in article philc ht h netcom com phil netcom com phil ronzone writes not at all you are apparently just another member of the religious left not at all i am not a member of the religious left right or even center in fact i don t consider myself very religious at all this will probably result in flames now in fact phil you should leave religion out of it it just clouds the issue show me all these environmental disasters most of them aren t and the natural disasters we have had individually far outweigh the man made ones how typical so you think we shouldn t avoid these events i shall refrain from the word disaster since it seems to upset you so much when we can in case you didn t realize it the natural disasters oops sorry events you are refering to we have no control over man made ones we do i guess you missed the show on ch earlier this week about the disaster oops there i go again i meant to say event on the exxon valdez just a natural every day occurance to spread oil on miles of beach i would like to know which natural event hey i remembered not to say disaster that would be similar to this most of your so called disasters love canal times beach tmi aren t disasters at all hmm i suppose you could be right they are as natural as a tree or a sunrise not so look if you want to worship trees or owls or snails or whatever fine do so but don t try to push the scaredness of your religious off onto me so look if you want to worship a oil slick or toxic waste dump or live in a house that has a cesspool in the front yard fine you have my permission to do so yea right like you need my permission it just won t be in the neighborhood where i live but don t try to push your shortsighted tunnelvision views off on the rest of us russell hockins there are people who believe that there is innovative interfaces inc no such thing as an environmental disaster pretty weird ain t it my own opinions no one elses packet ka foy ki yk nocal ca na usa
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10,781 | talk.politics.misc | re nc vs hunt marine gay bashing in wilmington nc verdict tfarrell lynx dac northeastern edu thomas farrell writes so you feel that the defendents should have been convicted regardless of the evidence now that would truely be a sad day for civil rights i don t know about everybody else but to me they should have been convicted because of the evidence which in my mind was quite sufficient so you sat in the court room and listened to the case after careful consideration you have come to your conclusion well good for you
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10,782 | talk.politics.misc | re mr cramer s evidence in article philc hsii gft netcom com phil netcom com phil ronzone writes in article apr sun urz uni heidelberg de gsmith lauren iwr uni heidelberg de gene w smith writes when are libertarians going to draw a clear line between themselves and nambla by your own statements you were once a member of an organization which you knew supported exactly what nambla supports namely abolishing the age of consent i ve never supported any such organization you have while both organizations may on paper support the abolition of the age of consent there the resemblance stops one supports the removal of a coercive law the other a paper facade to legitimize sexual relations with children what s the difference in practice it amounts to your saying it s disgusting but should be legal or someone else saying let s allow the parties involved to decide what is disgusting or if you re like me you think that it isn t a coercive law because some children can t make informed consent brian kane buast astro bu edu hot young star astronomy dept boston university boston ma true personal salvation is achieved by absolute faith in ones true self
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10,783 | talk.politics.misc | re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes in article apr tijc uucp pjs tijc uucp paul schmidt writes steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes as noted in another thread limiting govt the problem libertarians face is insuring that the limited government they seek does not become the tool of private interests to pursue their own agenda it is a failure of libertarianism if the ideology does not provide any reasonable way to restrain such actions other than utopian dreams you seem to be saying that a limited government will provide more opportunities for private interests to use it to pursue their own agendas and asking libertarians to prove that this will not happen while i can t offer such a proof it seems pretty damn plausible that if the government does not regulate a particular area it cannot become a tool of private interests to pursue their own agendas in that area i rather suspect that it s the sort of government we have now that is more likely to become such a tool and that it is such a tool in many instances just as marxism fails to specify how pure communism is to be achieved and the state is to wither away libertarians frequently fail to show how weakening the power of the state will result in improvement in the human condition i suspect that this is because improvement in the human condition as you define it is not the primary goal of libertarianism and would not be the primary goal of a libertarian government my impression of libertarianism is that its primary goal is the elimination of government coercion except in a very limited cases ian sutherland ian eecs nwu edu sans peur
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10,784 | talk.politics.misc | re the tories could win the lottery clinton gst phill hallam baker hallam zeus desy de writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes cmk world std com charles m kozierok writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes secondly any canadian who has worked and participates in the insurance it s a negative option you have to explicitly decline it knows that the premium is deducted separately yes and some americans actually have a problem with having more of their money taken from them to pay for others health care but note again the canadian and german health insurance is voluntary not true i am required to have insurance by law the method of collection effectively makes it a tax could it be because you re british phill and living in germany while the ec working rules are more liberal than what we have in the us canada fta there s probably a law about that having health insurance coverage is a condition of my being down here for example you have mentioned this once before yet both the ny times profile on the german sickness funds late jan and pamphlets that my girlfriend gives to her language students from the german consulate both say that it is voluntary okay there were quotation marks and that only of the population is covered by the sickness funds analogous to our provincial health insurances but not divided by province state another guy in health care policy says that the turkish guest workers aren t covered he s written to me a couple of times he s not a post er i ll ask him gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
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10,785 | talk.politics.misc | re gore throws out the first ball and media coverage of it in article apr hsh com paul hsh com paul havemann writes in article apr hemlock cray com rja mahogany cray com russ anderson writes in article c e ja ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com mark wilson writes this past thursday vp gore threw out the first ball at the home opener for the atlanta braves according to the news reports he was quite loudly booed no dr norman these were not your typical beer swilling red necks personally i wouldn t have paid any more attention to the incident except that the evening news when describing the event went on to comment that being booed was nothing unusual since it was normal for audiences to boo at this point since the celebrity was delaying the start of the game what a bunch of crock i have never heard of any incident in which the thrower of the ceremonial ball has been booed before dan quayle got roundly booed in milwaulkee last year i was listening on the radio this was the game that quayle told the brewers players that he would like to see them play the orioles in the alcs it s come to this has it defending al gore by comparing him to dan quayle who compared quayle to gore mark said he had never heard of any incident in which the thrower of the ceremonial ball had been booed before i mentioned another incident and if the media had a liberal bias i m sure he would have heard of the quayle incident if i was to compare quayle to anyone it most likely would be elmer fudd i d say that about says it all back to the pit with ye back to alt fan dan quayle begone russ anderson disclaimer any statements are my own and do not reflect upon my employer or anyone else c ex twins jack morris innings pitched runs world series mvp
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10,786 | talk.politics.misc | re how many homosexuals are there perhaps but most likely not more than a new study discrediting kinsey says so the views expressed herein are theodore a kaldis my own only do you seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe that a major university rutgers remus rutgers edu kaldis as this would hold such views
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10,787 | talk.politics.misc | re using california s antidiscrimination the sort of case i predicted in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes in article apr armory com rstevew armory com richard steven walz writes face it clayton he was not found guilty and so what if gays sometimes make it consensually with year old boys there are year old gays you know and as i recall the case of the state rested on the testimony of one victim who declined to testify even under threat i have had teens since i was and so have a lot of people face it clayton you re just a jerk rsw richard steven walz rstevew deeptht armory com maple street without safe and free abortion women are santa cruz ca organ surrogates to unwanted parasites i am always amazed to see people admit to breaking the law and putting their address in the signature please tell us more about this were they would you like to make a statement for the district attorney i had sex with a year old boy it was great we did everything well a hell of a lot it was fun anyway oh and before you turn purple with rage i was at the time clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
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10,788 | talk.politics.misc | the manitoban candidate bross sandbanks cosc brocku ca brian ross writes in the world of the future bill clinton will appoint canadians to govern all american institutions starting with the american health care system we will be benevolent canadian dictators with yet another tax being floated by the clinton administration to pay for new free social programs i ve really begun to suspect that the canadians long resentful of their place in the american shadow brainwashed an american draft dodger who fled to canada some time between and tutored him in the ways of canadian socialism awarded him with smokeless marijuana cigarettes when he got the correct answers then returned him to the states under the control of the domineering wife assigned to his case to attain high public office and destroy the evil individualistic and free market forces in america thus shaping america in the canadian image steven smith
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10,789 | talk.politics.misc | re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article apr eecs nwu edu ian nasser eecs nwu edu ian sutherland writes in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes in article apr tijc uucp pjs tijc uucp paul schmidt writes steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes it is a failure of libertarianism if the ideology does not provide any reasonable way to restrain such actions other than utopian dreams you seem to be saying that a limited government will provide more opportunities for private interests to use it to pursue their own agendas and asking libertarians to prove that this will not happen while i can t offer such a proof it seems pretty damn plausible that if the government does not regulate a particular area it cannot become a tool of private interests to pursue their own agendas in that area i rather suspect that it s the sort of government we have now that is more likely to become such a tool and that it is such a tool in many instances pardon me for interrupting but why doesn t anyone ever bring up other possibilities besides more government less government or no government and stop there it seems to me that the problems with society go much deeper than government democracies seem to reflective of the majority of society both the good and the bad if you take away the government you still have the structural flaws in society except this time with no restraints yes no why doesn t anybody ever discuss communal society like a kibbutz i never studied it on depth but from what i ve heard the kibbutz in isreal was very successful it is also very close to what aristotle and socrates believed was the best sorry to detract from the discussion just as marxism fails to specify how pure communism is to be achieved and the state is to wither away libertarians frequently fail to show how weakening the power of the state will result in improvement in the human condition i suspect that this is because improvement in the human condition as you define it is not the primary goal of libertarianism and would not be the primary goal of a libertarian government my impression of libertarianism is that its primary goal is the elimination of government coercion except in a very limited cases but what good is change if there is no tracable improvement in the human condition who would ever support the change if you tell them it won t improve their lives i know that there are and will be libertarians who will jump in now and say that it will improve our lives i can deal with that all i m saying is that improving the human condition must be the primary goal of any organization ian sutherland ian eecs nwu edu who said anything about panicking snapped authur garrett johnson this is still just culture shock you wait till i ve garrett ingres com settled into the situation and found my bearings then i ll start panicking douglas adams
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10,790 | talk.politics.misc | clinton am press briefing by dee dee myers the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april press briefing by dee dee myers the briefing room a m edt q why was the a m postponed ms myers just due to scheduling conflicts so as we put out the president will meet with the leaders of the national police organizations at p m in the rose garden as opposed to a m the only other things on his schedule today are at a m he ll meet with general vessey who as you know is on his way to vietnam to continue working on the mia pow issue at p m he ll have lunch with the vice president in the oval office and at p m he ll meet with the police organizations then from p m to p m he ll do his weekly photos with the various groups q a photo op with vessey ms myers there s no coverage on the vessey meeting q why ms myers why it s a closed meeting q what about the lunch ms myers the lunch no there s no coverage q is he meeting with any congress people today ms myers nothing scheduled q there are no meetings ms myers there are no congressional meetings today no q has the president been given any information by the pentagon or reached any conclusion about the validity of this report from hanoi any instructions to vessey on how to deal with the vietnamese on that subject ms myers well clearly the report is the first order of business it s high on the agenda on something that they ll discuss i think the president and general vessey will discuss the parameters of his visit to vietnam today but the president hasn t drawn any conclusions about the report yet certainly it s something that he wants general vessey to talk with the vietnamese about first q did the president talk with any republican senators yesterday about the stimulus package ms myers he spoke with senator dole q how many times ms myers i believe once during the day and once last night q what was the outcome of that ms myers they re continuing to work toward some kind of an agreement on a jobs package q is it your impression that senator dole is in any way flexible on this ms myers well i think we re hopeful that we re going to get some kind of jobs package through the senate and we ll continue to work with senator dole and others until we reach some kind of an agreement q did they discuss the vat tax ms myers i don t know if that came up q can you check that ms myers sure q so what are they is the president offering to scale down his program is that what he s trying to do buy it down to where dole will sign on ms myers well he s trying to protect as much of it as he can but it s important to him to get some kind of a jobs package through the senate and through congress now and as soon as we reach some conclusions on that we ll let you know but at the moment he s continuing to consult with members of congress including obviously senator dole q is he talking to anybody else ms myers i don t believe he talked to any other republicans yesterday q is he talking to anybody today ms myers i don t think anything is scheduled but i wouldn t rule it out q we were led to believe that the president called mr dole on the subject of russian aid and that bob dole brought the conversation around to stimulus package is that correct ms myers i think the president has contacted several people on russian aid i think that it was always expected that the stimulus package or the jobs package will be part of any conversation he would have with senator dole the primary objective of the conversation was russian aid that was the first order of business but it was both q in the president s mind are they linked politically in that if the republicans continue to reject the stimulus package he thinks it will be harder to sell russian aid to the american people has he made that argument ms myers i can t talk about specifically what arguments he might have made the president is obviously committed to both he liked to see a jobs package to the american people first but as you know we outlined the details of additional russian aid last night in tokyo q but does the president believe that the stimulus package will make it more difficult to persuade americans to vote for russian to accept a vote for russian aid ms myers i think that the president is going to continue to work to pass the stimulus package to pass a jobs package and we re still hopeful that we ll get some kind of jobs package through the congress q is it fair to say that the president is negotiating now with dole ms myers he s discussing options with him q on the stimulus is it your understanding that over the break some democrats themselves have left the support that they had earlier for the package the stimulus package ms myers i think we still have wide support in the senate for the jobs package q but specifically that you ve lost democrats other than shelby ms myers i don t believe so there hasn t been a vote q what about kohl q kohl and feingold ms myers there hasn t been a vote yet and we ll continue to work with senators to try to get a majority to try to bring the package to a vote because we believe that a majority of the members of the united states senate support the package q if you re weren t worried about kohl and feingold why did george mention milwaukee projects the other day ms myers i think george pointed out a number of projects in a number of states that stand to be funded or to lose funding if this jobs package doesn t pass q no democrats laughter ms myers i ll let you draw your own conclusions q does he plan to talk to dole again today or any other republicans again today ms myers there s nothing specifically scheduled but again i wouldn t rule it out q does he plan to put out any more press releases to any other states today ms myers what we ve done is we re in the process of breaking down the benefits of the jobs package state by state i think it s entirely feasible that as we sort of are able to sum those up we ll send out press releases to the various states that suggest how their states would benefit from this package q will you share those with us ms myers sure as we did yesterday q do you have copies of the ones you sent ms myers yes we made those available yesterday and we certainly can continue to provide them today q dee dee since yesterday s questions and subsequent stories about the vat what further consideration of this issue has been given ms myers nothing s changed since yesterday i think the president commented on it this morning to say only that it was something he knew was being considered by the task force and that he has not made a decision on and i don t think we have anything to add to that q but he also said that business and labor groups are telling him they support it can you tell us ms myers i think that there has been i m not going to speculate on who supports it i think the president said that there has been some support among business and labor groups i don t think he said he was directly contacted by them q are we to take that to mean that the administration has sounded out business and labor groups on this ms myers i think there s been plenty of public discourse on this over the years and even recently but i don t think i want to add to that q in february though the president said that this was something to be considered or years down the road what has happened between then and now to cause this administration to change its mind ms myers i think as we said yesterday it is something that the working groups are looking at they re considering a wide variety of options on everything from funding to specific options that will be covered by the president s health care plan the president has not taken it up yet has not made a decision on it and beyond that i don t have anything to add q you haven t answered the question it wasn t being considered by anyone in the white house after the president s comments in february and george reaffirmed that in a briefing q and then suddenly q what happened ms myers the working groups as we have said throughout we instructed to consider a wide variety of options across the board and one of the things that has been talked about and that they are clearly considering is some kind of a value added tax q but the president himself took this off the table dee dee and suddenly it reappears and this goes to the credibility of this administration in a way what has happened in the meantime ms myers the president has not looked at this it hasn t been presented to him again yet the working groups are looking at it as they re looking at a wide variety of options and no decisions have been made q and it raises the question of how independently the task force is working ms myers the task force was instructed to consider all options and they ve taken that mandate seriously and they re considering all options q but that s not the impression that the president left in february the impression he left was that this was something that was long range to be looked at years down the road the clear implication of his remarks was that this was something that was not on the table not an option q if it changes i ll tell you q bring him on q and you repeatedly referred to the president s remarks telling us that those were still in operation ms myers it s changed and we told you laughter q but that s what alice rivlin s comments and donna shalala comments were about i mean that seemed like an orchestrated effort because you have two independent cabinet officers ms myers i wouldn t no alice rivlin s not a cabinet member first of all second of all it was not orchestrated but clearly they both said yesterday and in the last couple of days that it s something that s being looked at we confirmed that yesterday and i don t have anything to add to that q is it because he has very few options q is this something that it will be incumbent upon the task force to convince the president about in other words has the president himself personally ruled it out and it s now up to the task force to convince him to put it back on the table or is it in fact back on the table having been placed there by discussions with the president ms myers it is not the working group s mission at this point to convince the president of anything it is their mission to put before him his options and to explain the benefits and the costs and the basic pros and cons of each of those options i think that they will certainly present the vat to him in that context and at this point he s not that presentation has not been made but it s something that he will hear and he has not made a decision on q they will present it to him as one of his options though he specifically ruled it out ms myers correct q dee dee is this more than a trial balloon is this a serious consideration that the working groups are giving to this form of taxation ms myers it s simply a statement of fact the working groups are considering a wide variety of options on a number of issues relating to health care reform one of the options that they re looking at is the vat q dee dee when the working groups were examining this possibility was this on the table during the same time period that you were telling us that it was not ms myers i don t know what the specific timing of their drafting of options is i don t know q who was telling you that it was not under consideration ms myers i was referring back to the president s comments q have they discovered that the sin taxes won t raise enough money to fund the core benefit package ms myers no there s no decisions that have been made on how to pay for the health care plan q i m asking whether the projections ms myers there s a number of options depending on how the plan is structured you can t decide how much the plan is going to cost until you decide what the plan is going to look like and so you can t discuss what financing options have been ruled in our out until you know q dee dee we ve been told that they have a computer models on a number of possible packages ms myers correct q the question is whether they have now determined whether sin taxes would not produce enough money for even the barest minimum package that is not a very difficult computation ms myers it is a question that you know that we re not going to answer until there s a number of options being considered it depends on how the package is structured the exact details of the package and the financing mechanisms used to pay for them are all among the decisions that have yet to be made q and when the president has been meeting with health care his health care advisors which we are told he has been doing ms myers correct q they have never once said to him these are your funding options including the vat he has never heard the word vat in his ms myers i am not going to comment on the specific nature of the daily they re not daily but the quasi regular briefings q well you have ms myers i have not other than to say that he s not considered the vat and i think that is a true statement q no but you said that it has not been presented to him as an option ms myers correct q that doesn t mean he hasn t heard about it ms myers i m not going to get into the details of what s discussed i think that statement stands for itself q specific dee dee when you say he hasn t looked at it do you mean that he hasn t looked at it in terms of paying for medical coverage or hasn t looked at it in general because back in chilicothe he was very specific in defining how it works what the advantages are the whole thing it sounds like ms myers but that was i think in chilicothe if you go back to his remarks there it was a broader philosophical discussion of the tax structure and i think the comments were generally in reference to the overall economic plan but clearly it s something that he s thought about in the broad context i mean that was clear in chilicothe what i m saying is that in the process of the working groups it s something that he hasn t considered yet it s something that the working groups will present to him among the number of options and that no decisions have been made and i m not going to comment any further on the details of the meetings where health care issues are being discussed q it s your statement from this podium that no discussion of this has taken place you say that no option that the option has not been presented to him ms myers that is correct q do you stand by does the white house still stand by george s statement in march that this will not be in the proposal ms myers no decisions have been made we have nothing to add to what s already been said q let me follow up here do you stand by what rivlin said yesterday that if any kind of vat were to be used or considered that other changes to the tax code would have to be made so that it would be less regressive ms myers i m not going to comment any further on what might happen if q but do you stand by the previous conversations in february that if there were to be a vat i think the president said you d exclude food and energy ms myers i m not going to comment on the specific structure of a decision that hasn t been made q was the president aware prior to donna shalala s comments yesterday that this was under consideration by the working groups ms myers i don t know specifically what q could you check for us because that s a real important credibility question ms myers sure q since the task force was brought together this issue has been discussed at the beginning and throughout as one fairly painless way to raise a lot of money were you all kept in the dark was the press office kept in the dark over the past month and a half when you ve been denying that a vat tax would be considered that it was actually on the table over there as an option ms myers i think we ve said all that we have to say it is something the working groups are looking at the president has not made a decision about it yet and beyond that i have nothing to add q well sorry dee dee there are still a couple of questions that we are going to have to ask because we have a problem with credibility here yours primarily what we re asking is if you all were not told at all that this thing was being considered while you were coming out here and telling us that it was not or if it s a case that you were coming out here and deliberately misleading us ms myers i don t believe that anyone has ever come out here and deliberately misled you from this podium ever ever q has anyone tried to shade it a little bit to indicate something has anybody told anybody to come out ms myers we re not trying to shade answers or deliberately mislead anybody i ve said what i have to say about this issue q all we were trying to find out ms myers i understand what you re trying to find out and i ve given you the answers helen q we re trying to find out what changed what made it an option again that s the ms myers the working groups were given a broad mandate to investigate all options and they are doing that q yes but it wasn t an option before how can you investigate it if the president has taken it off the table ms myers it is something that they re obviously considering and the president has not made a decision on q yes but he took it off the table in february ms myers working groups are considering it they ll present it to the president at some point and he ll make a decision q why would they consider it if he has taken it off the table ms myers it s clearly on the table q yes but he took it off the table did he change his mind ms myers it s back on the table bill q did he change his mind ms myers he said this morning that he hasn t made a decision about it he obviously knows that it s on the table it s something that he will look at at some and when we have a decision on this we ll let you know q so he must have changed his mind right ms myers at some point it will be looked at i mean q dee dee there s like two options either he changed his mind or the working groups think they re authority exceeds the president s ms myers the working groups were given a broad mandate to look at all options they ve done that q are you going to put out his income tax ms myers yes there will be something available on his income tax probably later this afternoon his return will be available q will there be any kind of briefing to go through it ms myers no nothing s planned i think someone will be available probably not in a briefing setting but to walk you through the questions q we re used to be walked line by line through the presidential tax forms ms myers i ve seen those briefings laughter q could we have one ms myers no i don t think there will be any kind of a formal briefing but there will be somebody available to answer your questions about it q did they file a joint form ms myers yes q when did he file it ms myers i believe it s being filed today q dee dee is there going to be a backgrounder for miyazawa ms myers no there will be a readout after the meeting q no backgrounder today ms myers no backgrounder today q this is complicated stuff we need help laughter ms myers we can t give you taxes and miyazawa all in one day it s too confusing laughter q vance and owen have opened the doors on the use of force in bosnia they ve both said that a they never ruled it out and b it might be necessary now does that influence your thinking on whether or not to change your approach ms myers there s been no change in our policy towards bosnia we have always said that we d consider q but does that impact upon your decision are they people whose opinions would carry weight with you ms myers they re people whose opinions carry weight certainly i mean the president supports the process that they ve initiated but there s been no change in our policy for bosnia although we re considering a number of options right now if the serbs don t come back to the negotiating table if they don t sign on to some kind of an agreement we will consider additional options which we ve been saying regularly q one follow up question then we cannot get a straight answer from anyone in the administration why do you not set a deadline for the serbs can you tell us the strategic or tactical reasons for not giving them a deadline to come to the table ms myers we re continuing to put pressure on them every day q which doesn t work so ms myers well we think it is having some effect we re going to continue to tighten sanctions as you know we support the omnibus resolution we expect that to come to a vote on the th q you say it s having an effect can you give us any documentation ms myers i d be happy to provide somebody to talk to you about the impact of the sanctions and things like that q there s been no you have not been able to provide anybody who can tell us that the sanctions have had any effect in bosnia serbia yes in bosnia no ms myers i think that they ve had effect in serbia and we think they ve had some effect in bosnia and again i ll be happy to provide somebody to walk you through the details of that if you d like q we would like to hear from someone who can show us what the effect has been in bosnia we had the briefing on all of the terrible things that are happening in belgrade but we haven t seen anything that indicates an impact on the fighting can you provide something along those lines ms myers i will see what i can get you q on the extra russian aid that christopher announced this morning where is that money coming from ms myers we ll have to work with congress on the details of that package q so that would be new money that you would hope to get ms myers yes that s new money in addition to the billion announced in vancouver so i assume that you all have seen the billion package that was announced this morning in tokyo by secretary christopher q isn t there a concern though about offering something which you have to get in congress i mean that was the concern with vancouver you didn t want to do that ms myers the concern with vancouver was to do something immediately which required money that was already approved in the fiscal budget what we re looking at now is a little bit longer term plan to build on top of the billion that we announced in vancouver this clearly will require congressional approval or some of it will anyway and we re going to continue to work with congress to make that happen q to what extent has that been vetted or agreed to by congress ms myers the president has had a number of conversations with members and will continue to work with them as this process moves forward q was christopher able to put this package out with a fair degree of understanding that you will be able to get it through congress ms myers it was created in consultation with congress q in meeting with the law enforcement officials is that does that have a set speech and a goal a direction ms myers yes the president will talk about and the law enforcement organizations are endorsing the president s jobs package they believe particularly the summer jobs package will help give kids something to do q who are they ms myers it s members or leadership from three organizations napo which is the national association of police organizations ibpo which is the international brotherhood of police organizations i believe and iupa which is the international union of police associations q will the fbi chief be there ms myers the fbi chief no q or any other federal law enforcement officials ms myers no it will be the president and these national law enforcement organization leaders q does the billion announced today include the million that s in the fy budget for disarmament ms myers no the nunn lugar money is separate q so this would be the million that s in the budget already plus another billion ms myers i believe all of this is on top of the million already in the budget q is this going to be part of the supplemental or fiscal ms myers we ll work with congress on the exact funding mechanism on exactly how this will be paid for q this billion on top of ms myers on top of million on top of the million nunn lugar money we announced earlier q and this is what prompted the president to call bob dole it was on this tranche not on the previous money he was calling bob dole ms myers correct q is there a briefing on miyazawa ms myers there will be a readout after the meeting with miyazawa tomorrow q dee dee on a totally unrelated matter some republicans who are active in the u s chamber of commerce are complaining about this new cozy relationship between the white house and the chamber of commerce there are the town hall meeting the other night the satellite and all of this relationship does the white house feel that you re getting too close to these chambers of commerce ms myers that s an interesting charge laughter after how many years of democrats being accused of not paying any attention to the chambers now there are those who would accuse us of being too close i think that s interesting but no we re thrilled by the support we ve received from the national chamber and local chambers across the country and we ll continue to work with them on this and other initiatives q what s the status of the president thinking about going to this democratic retreat ms myers it s on his calendar i think he ll almost certainly go q all three days ms myers we haven t figured out exactly when he ll be there yet q is it open to coverage ms myers no i believe the whole thing is closed q is he going to have any kind of address statement anything at all on the gay rights march on the th ms myers we re still looking at that we haven t made a final decision about how we ll who will make a statement or what q any meetings scheduled with any of the leaders ms myers nothing is scheduled but i wouldn t rule it out q what about an aids czar ms myers it s coming q anything on the weekend q there s been a suggestion that he s going to this retreat to avoid having to participate in the gay rights or appear or have any involvement in the gay rights march ms myers no i think this is something he s been discussing for a long time appearing at the senate democratic retreat q the weekend ms myers weekend don t know the only thing on right now is the radio address on saturday q any travel plans ms myers if it changes none right now q he s not going to be off campaigning for his stimulus package ms myers no specific plans right now q what about mid week anything likely ms myers it s possible yes i think it s likely that we ll travel next week certainly the weekend q has he called thurmond about his daughter ms myers i don t know i ll check q going to name a drug czar this weekend ms myers this weekend i don t believe so q and the radio address on saturday is that going to be focused on the stimulus package ms myers i m sure it will the press thank you end a m edt
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10,791 | talk.politics.misc | clinton vp gore joins students in orlando for st kids earth summit white house office of the vice president for immediate release contact heidi kukis thursday april julia payne gore joins students in orlando for first kids earth summit will take part in special town meeting on the environment saturday april orlando florida wasington joining students from across the united states and around the world for the first ever kids earth summit vice president al gore will travel to orlando florida on saturday and participate in a special town hall meeting hosted by linda ellerbee for broadcast on nickelodeon to hear the young people s concerns and share ideas about the environment the vice president will take part in the kids world council plan it for the planet from pm edt saturday in orlando florida he will tour a display of student environmental projects then videotape the town hall meeting where he will discuss with student delegates their concerns about the environment and their plans for an environmentally sound future the town hall meeting will be moderated by linda ellerbee and taped for a news special nickelodeon special edition plan it for the planet which will air on sunday april at pm edt it is sponsored by nickelodeon and the children s earth fund young people care about the environment because they know it affects our future across the country and around the world young people are speaking out about the environmental challenges we face they are identifying problems thinking about solutions and they are demanding action from their leaders the vice president said the kids world council delegates are meeting for three days in orlando to discuss how to save energy and switch to renewable energy they will be following the format and goals of the earth summit that took place last year in rio de janeiro the vice president led the senate delegation to the earth summit i look forward to hearing what young people have to say about the environment and their future their insight into the world around us is important the vice president said more schedule for the vice president saturday april pm edt vice president tours display of student environmental projects nickelodeon studios orlando florida pm edt vice president takes part in town hall meeting with kids world council delegates and linda ellerbee nickelodeon studios orlando florida pm edt vice president departs from kids world council for washington d c note press that wish to attend should contact eileen parise or marty von ruden in florida at
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10,792 | talk.politics.misc | clinton remarks to law enforcement leaders the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april remarks by the president to law enforcement organizations the rose garden p m edt the president good afternoon ladies and gentlemen two months ago i presented a comprehensive plan to reduce our national deficit and to increase our investment in the american people their jobs and their economic future the federal budget plan passed congress in record time and created a new sense of hope and opportunity in the country then the short term jobs plan i presented to congress which would create a half a million jobs in the next two years passed the house of representatives two weeks ago it now has the support of a majority of the united states senate all of these members of congress know it s time to get the economy moving again to get job growth going again to get a fast start on the investments we need to build a lasting prosperity unfortunately a minority of the members of the united states senate have used gridlock tactics to prevent their colleagues from working the will of the majority on the jobs bill when congress returns i ask every senator from every state and from both parties to remember what is at stake the issue is not politics it s people sixteen million of them are looking for full time jobs and can t find them these men and women don t care about who s up or down in washington they care about paying the rent and meeting the mortgage payment about putting food on the table and buying shoes for their children about regaining a sense of dignity that comes from doing a day s work and supporting their families and drawing a paycheck they re asking those of us who have the privilege of serving to put aside politics and do something now to move our economy forward i am prepared to do that and i have been working with the senate to come up with an adjusted package that meets some of the concerns of those who have been blocking action on the jobs plan i m willing to compromise so long as we keep the focus on jobs keep the focus on growth and keep the focus on meeting unmet national needs our opponents have been asking for a smaller package today i ask them to join me in determining exactly what kind and what size package congress can approve that actually meets the needs of the american people but even as we make those reductions and the package will be smaller i believe we must address problems that are on the minds of millions of americans and one in particular and that is the need to toughen law enforcement in our society to deal with the dramatic rise in violent crime so i will ask even in this reduced package for an additional million in federal funding to help local communities to rehire police officers who have been laid off because of the fiscal problems caused by the national recession together with a matching effort by local governments this could put as many as police officers back on the job and back on the beat in communities all across our nation at a time when too many of our people live in fear of violent crime when too many businesses have closed and too many people have lost their jobs because people are afraid to leave their homes rehiring thousands of officers is one of the best investments america can make and i ask both houses of congress to make that investment in our people s safety and in their piece of mind i believe in the need for strong federal action to keep the economy going toward recovery and to create jobs make no mistake about it i will fight for these priorities as hard as i ever have i will never forget that the people sent me here to fight for their jobs their future and for fundamental change i want to thank the police officers who are here today and tell you that not a single one of them knew before they came here that i had determined to ask for more money in this jobs bill to rehire police officers they came here because they believe in the summer jobs portion of the package and i want them to be free to talk about that they came here not out of any law enforcement concern other than the fact that they wanted the kids in this country to have a chance to have jobs this summer to have safer streets and a brighter and more peaceful future i say what i say today not just because it s good for law enforcement but because it s good for the people who live in these communities i have always supported community policing not only because it helps to prevent crime and to lower the crime rate but because it cements better relationships between people in law enforcement and the people that they re hired to protect it reduces the chances of abusive action by police officers and increases the chances of harmony and safe streets at the same time these are the kinds of things that we are trying to do i promised in my campaign that i d do everything i could to put another police officers on the street over the next four years this makes a good downpayment on that this keeps in mind the core of the jobs package and this will help us to move forward so i ask the people in the senate who have blocked the jobs bill let s work together i can accept a reduced package if you will increase your commitment to safe streets i do not accept the fact that we should reduce our commitment to summer jobs or to building our infrastructure or to doing those other things that will create real and lasting prosperity for our people i have done my part now to end the gridlock i ask you to do yours i want now to give the people who are here with me on the platform a chance to make some remarks and to be heard by the american people beginning with janet reno the distinguished attorney general q mr president can you tell us do you think that the jobs package could be put in further jeopardy by controversy over the suggestion of a vat tax at this point in the congressional dialogue the president not at all i think it should have they wouldn t have any relationship one to the other first of all i made absolutely no decision on that you should know that there s a lot of support in the business community and the labor community people have asked us to consider that because of the enormous burden of the present system on many of our major employers particularly many of those that we depend upon to generate jobs and to carry the strength of this economy but i have made absolutely no decision that would even approach that on that or any other kind of general tax q do you personally believe that the american public is ready to pay for to have another tax to pay for health care i mean apart from what business and labor leaders have said the president i m not going to speculate on that i will say this the real issue is how quickly we can recycle the benefits of all the savings to cover the cost i mean that is everyone knows that if you do what we re proposing to do if you streamline the insurance system if you fix the system so that there s no longer an enormous economic incentive to over utilize or over provide certain services if you provide primary and preventive care in places where it isn t now every single analysis shows absolutely massive savings to the health care system the real question is whether you can transfer those savings to cover those who have no coverage now or those who have virtually no coverage so that you provide people the security i have no idea the polls say that but i don t know all i know is the polls that i see in the press that many of you have commissioned they say overwhelmingly the american people want the security of an affordable health care system but i don t think that has anything to do with this stimulus and it certainly shouldn t have people want a job first and foremost they want that more than anything else q now that you ve announced your willingness to compromise on the stimulus package can you tell us what parts of your package you consider vital and uncompromisable i assume summer jobs is one the president i want the summer jobs i want the highway program and i want the police program i still intend let me say this i still intend to fully and aggressively push the crime bill which did not pass the congress last year this is a supplement to that not a substitute for it in any way but i think we need to do that i think we need the ryan white funds because of the enormous health care burdens to the communities that are inordinately and disproportionately affected by the problems of caring for people with aids and there are several other things that i think should be done we have to do the agriculture department meat inspectors the safety of the public depends on that there are a number of other things that i don t i don t think any of it should be cut but i have given senator mitchell and senator byrd i talked to them and senator dole called me yesterday to discuss this and i told him that i would call him back i called him back last night in new hampshire and we discussed this and i basically asked them to talk today and said that i would not make any statements about any specifics until at least they had a chance to talk to see whether or not they could reach some accord so i don t want to be any more specific than i have been already and let s see if they can talk it out q when you talked to senator dole and senator mitchell did you tell them about your increase also that million that you want that as part of the package the president i did i told senator i left word for senator mitchell last night about it when i talked to senator dole i don t remember for sure i do not believe i mentioned it but i did tell him that i was prepared to reduce the package and i wanted to break the gridlock and i told him that i was working on a reformulation of it so that in the hope that it would become even more focused on jobs and the kinds of issues that i thought the american people wanted us to address and this is certainly consistent with that thank you end p m edt
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10,793 | talk.politics.misc | re high speed rail is bad in article apr hydra acs ttu edu mcgoy unicorn acs ttu edu david mcgaughey writes the question i think then becomes do we the general public need the train i certainly do not nor will i ever need this train in lubbock texas with the inexpensive air travel provided between dallas and houston i don t think people in dallas or houston need it either i totally agree really the only people this is going to benefit are those who live in the cities where the train stops who wants to drive to the train station from x lubbock for example it s probably farther to drive to the train station than it is to the nearest national airport i really can t see spending billion on a system that only three cities will benefit from
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10,794 | talk.politics.misc | clinton president s trip to pittsburg the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april statement by the press secretary the president will travel to pittsburgh on saturday april to talk about his job creation plan and its impact on the state of pennsylvania where it would create as many as full time jobs and up to summer jobs he will make a public address at pittsburgh international airport at am the president will leave washington early saturday morning and return that afternoon a white house press charter will depart andrews air force base at filing facilities will be available in pittsburgh
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10,795 | talk.politics.misc | re high speed rail is bad in article apr iqsc com rex iqsc com rex black writes rail in texas being from california i have come to the conclusion that one has two choices for preventing economic strangulation through traffic high speed rail or growth limits rex growth limits how will hsr help with the traffic congestion from what i understand the rail will not stop in places like waco or bryan or lots of intermediate places in between even though i live in austin i don t see myself using the train except on rare occasions probably twice a year and at dollars a ticket i could probably drive for cheaper also even if the price of gas went up
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10,796 | talk.politics.misc | re top ten signs that it s the age of aquarius on pennsylvania avenue top ten signs that it s the age of aquarius on pennsylvania avenue men in uniform are persona non grata in the home of our commander in chief algore s enviro mentalism will make the clean air act look like an industrial policy higher taxes are once again the prescription for all that ails america tax dodging is unpatriotic draft dodging is a symbol of pride beaded curtains hang from the oval office windows socialism may be dead in the ex soviet union but we are told to prepare for the nationalization of our health care resources these people must be inhaling something not quite free love but eating flowers is considered healthy the feminazis have a president in the white house whether the rest of us realize it or not slick may be the first draft dodger to send american troops into combat slick may be unpopular with middle class americans but he s a big hit on campus with the professorial class copyright c edward a ipser jr here s my own top ten response to mr ipser s list it s about time we have a president that might actually stand up to the military our men and women in uniform must learn that the world does not revolve around them and that one of the things they re out there defending is our right to be critical of them even denounce them let me explain something to you environmental policy and industrial policy must go hand in hand our nation and indeed our planet cannot afford to continue ignoring this as was done over the last twelve years our industrial environmental position has been downright shameful we must have active government support of the key industries such as telecommunications microelectronics medical biotech and environmental tech meanwhile weed out old inneficient high polution industries that are better left to other nations this will make us richer help produce new jobs and help the environment to give credit where credit is due i heard a lot of this in a speech by senator john kerry d ma tonite in addition it s time we get really really serious about issues like overpopulation globabl warming and ozone depletion the planet on which we live should be our utmost priority it just so happens that that it takes money to make this country work to provide the services that people need and to help solve the problems that need to be solved granted some things can probably be done more efficiently for less money and should be but some things are going to cost more money and i m sick and tired of hearing everyone whining about taxes all the time you want to live in my country you pay your fair share i can t believe what hypocrites people are when they ask people to give up their lives for their country and then complain about taxes if you re willing to send me off to die for some stupid obsession with fighting an enemy which at best doesn t affect us and at worst really should be our friend then you have no right to tell me you shouldn t pay taxes hey i think the beaded curtains add a lovely s esque touch look canada europe and japan manage to provide health care for their citizens and yes basic health is a human right which people are entitled to if these nations aren t capitalist enough for you then i guess we ve found something better than capitalism there is nothing sacred about the capitalist system and if something be it socialism or anything else works better then i say let capitalism die make love not war contrary to popular belief it is possible to be a male and a feminist at the same time to discriminate against or to deny equal opportunity to a majority of the population is just plain wrong and trying to force them into some sort of tradition role is even worse women certainly have as much to offer this world as men and the day that gender discrimination is finally broken it going to make all the revolutions of the past few centuries seem like reform bills i look forward to it see number hey man acadamia rules amar chaudhary peace land at matzoh ac in dc in none of the opinions here necessary reflect the opinions of yale university or anyone or anything associated with it except for me of course please post reponses or send them to chaudhary amar cs yale edu
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10,797 | talk.politics.misc | re clinton s immunization program in article c jobh zt apollo hp com goykhman apollo hp com red herring writ es in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jlinder magnus a cs ohio state edu jeffrey s linder writes in article c fjsl is ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr c om mark wilson writes on the news last night clinton was bashing the republicans for stonewalling his so called stimulus package it seems that one small item within this package was going to pay for free immunizations for poor kids immunizations for children in this country are already free if you care to go have it done the problem is not the cost it is the irresponible parents who are to stupid or to lazy to have it done in case you haven t noticed clintonites are pushing a universal health care access program access here means that folks who do not give a damn about immunizing their children will have health care services delivered to their doorsteps excuse me for sticking my nose in but any parent parents who do not allready immunize their children especially if it is already free don t deserve one frigging dime of tax money for health care for themselves or public health care service i know the immunization program and the coming national health care issue are slightly seperate issues but anybody who wouldn t help their kids don t deserve my tax help ryan
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10,798 | talk.politics.misc | re the role of the national news media in inflaming passions in article c iak zh murdoch acc virginia edu gsh w fermi clas virginia edu greg hennessy writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes but what came out in much lower profile reporting was that the victim was a prostitute and the man had not paid her hence the false accusation there was no evidence the woman in question was a prostitute the defense merely alledged that she was even clayton knows the difference err perhaps clayton doesn t know the difference evidence given for her prostitute status besides the admittedly questionable claim of the man on trial included prior employment in a number of massage parlors with women who claimed that she worked as a prostitute walking around a truck stop at am wearing a lace miniskirt a halter top and no underwear of any sort not having a purse or other i d with her not enough to convict her but enough to create reasonable doubt whether a rape actually took place or theft of services are you just ignorant or lying again the judge found that there was some credible evidence that the marines were engaged in self defense no the judge found that the prosecution did not carry out the burder on proof a small clipping from clarinews under fair use guidelines new hanover district court judge jacqueline morris goodson ruled in the benchtrial that the state failed to carry its burden in proving the marines acted to cause injury the accounts on the evening news indicated that they claimed self defense and the judge agreed that they were so operating greg hennessy university of virginia clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
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10,799 | talk.politics.misc | re california insurance commissioner endorses federal legislation to protect consumers from scam insurance companies in article apr cbnewsi cb att com gadfly cbnewsi cb att com gadfly writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes and now those other options don t exist we probably agree on this more than you think welfare was invented to solve a problem of the s but the poverty is now so much worse and our economic infra structure has been so eroded that it just can t keep up any more you mean since your philosophy took over the economy has almost collapsed excuse me my philosophy you don t have any idea what my philosophy is the american economy has had its ups and downs through a number of prevailing economic philosophies but then economics is hardly a science in my lifetime your philosophy socialism masquerading as a liberal welfare state has been in ascendancy no i mean exactly what i wrote the welfare system of the new deal is wholly inadequate to cope with the current state of affairs absolutely so the response of socialists is take us even further into socialism whether or not the fathers work is not germane to single mothers very true but the promotion of casual sexuality is something that plays a part in the single mother problem i ll buy that and there s lots of reasons for it extremely far down on the list being the flash in the pan media attention a bunch of middle class dropouts got for their philosophy and experimentation flash in the pan no your subculture has utterly dominated the tv and movie industries for two decades now my subculture my we re getting personal the only subculture i see dominating the tv and movie industries is money if you ll buy it they ll sell it and as recent movements to boycott tv advertisers have shown they re very sensitive about what sells whatever happened to personal responsibility anyway or am i personally responsible for the decline in that too to the extent that people have been encouraged to not be responsible for themselves yes come on you and i both know that the major problem of this society today isn t a lack of employment it s a lack of people willing to work huh tell that to the single mother i know who was laid off from her hour job at a hospital and now works full time minimum wage jobs to barely be able to support herself and her kid barely hey she s too proud to go on public assistance but the only jobs she can find are menial and with no benefits and no career path either they find excuses to lay people off and hire new ones rather than give raises and perks and why not it s a lot cheaper oddly enough all the unskilled or semiskilled people i know manage to find employment almost immediately maybe she needs to move to a cheaper part of the country where jobs are plentiful and the cost of living is lower the west side of chicago is about as cheap as it gets squalor city tell me about all these places where it s cheap to live and jobs are abundant i ll pass them on sonoma county you live in a strange and wondrous place sir inexpensive housing not exactly cheap but not los angeles either lots of employment and utterly surrounded by socialists well i suppose that s the sort of environment that would attract socialists or at least not dissuade them no it s that areas with a lot of wealthy breed socialists all the spoiled rich kids feeling guilty about their wealth but not guilty enough to give it away they just look for politicians to take my more limited wealth away i see a lot of people willing nay eager to work what i don t see is a system that makes it at all feasible to do so it s not just welfare which nobody enjoys but there just aren t the jobs any more when the us was expanding industrial capacity there was always a mill to go work in skills to learn a future now there s only mcdonalds odd not the experience of anyone i know just the opposite in california yup mr cramer i was there hippiedom was a very low budget operation our drugs were cheap the money i was referring to was aid to families with druggie cohabitators afdc well i doubt that much of this goes to drugs there isn t much left after buying food and there is very little in the first place sure you read about such cases now and then but that s what makes them news show me your statistics about afdc abuse i can tell you that relatives i have known the drugs came first the food was secondary ken perlow clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
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