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10,900 | talk.politics.misc | re clinton caves in reduces jobs bill in article apr desire wright edu demon desire wright edu not a boomer writes clinton has backed off from the billion jobs bill word is he s paring it down to the core jobless benefits money for creating full time jobs ie no summer jobs money chalk one up for holding the line on spending it seems radio reports were overly optimistic all clinton wants to cut is billion for community block grants keeping in summer jobs hmmm well looks like we need to keep up the pressure on our congresspersons brett there s nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction sean o casey in the white plague by frank herbert
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10,901 | talk.politics.misc | re new study out on gay percentage in article c k lc cyf murdoch acc virginia edu lfoard hopper virginia edu la wrence c foard writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes from the santa rosa cal press democrat april p b male sex survey gay activity low a new natonal study on male sexual behavior the most thorough examination of american men s sexual practices published since the kinsey report more than four decades ago shows about percent of the men surveyed had engaged in homosexual sex and percent considered themselves exclusively homosexual the figures on homosexuality in the study released wednesday by the alan guttmacher institute are significantly lower than the percent figure that has been part of the conventional wisdom since it was published in the kinsey report so what so there are less gays then the gays claim it will be interesting to see the reaction when million queers gather in washington dc after all if there are only million of us then this is an event unprecidented in history dream on abortion and african american civil rights rallies don t even bring in half of that the article also contains numbers on the number of sexual partners the median number of sexual partners for all men was don t forget that had or more partners i was wondering why i wasn t getting laid compared to the table i have already posted from masters johnson and kolodny showing male homosexual partners it is apparent that homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general male population and what did this study show for number of sexual contacts for those who said they where homosexual or is that number to inconvient for you if it s more then who cares it s a shame that we don t have a breakdown for straight men vs gay bi men that would show even more dramatically how much more promiscuous gay bi men are fuck off actually i bet you more gay bi men are as not as promiscuous as gay men because more of them could have the option of living a straight life and with social pressures probably would at least try join the pythagorean reform church repent of your evil irrational numbers and bean eating ways accept into your heart call the pythagorean reform church bbs at did you know that is is a fact that homosexuality was comparatively high in hitler s storm troopers sa before he came to power i wonder if they got to put the triangles on themselves ryan
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10,902 | talk.politics.misc | re new study out on gay percentage the article also contains numbers on the number of sexual partners the median number of sexual partners for all men was compared to the table i have already posted from masters johnson and kolodny showing male homosexual partners it is apparent that homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general male population it s a shame that we don t have a breakdown for straight men vs gay bi men that would show even more dramatically how much more promiscuous gay bi men are isn t is funny how someone who seems to know nothing about homosexuality uses a very flawed imho source of information to pass jusgement on all homosexual and bisexual men only the most comprehensive survey on sexuality in years it would seem more logical to say that since the heterosexual group of men is larger then the chances of promiscuity larger as well in my opinion orientation has nothing to do with it chance and size have nothing in common on the multimillion number scale we are talking about men are men and they all like sex i am a gay male i have had sex three times in my life all with the same man before that i was a virgin so whose promiscuous nobody said that you were chill just because someone is gay doesn t mean they have no morals just because someone is heterosexual doesn t mean they do look at the world well said statistics alone prove that most criminals are by default hetero actually the kinsley report in or used a high percentage of prisoners so ryan
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10,903 | talk.politics.misc | re just what is in the jobs pork bill in article c l um isf ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com mark wilson writes this was in wed wsj start the white house seeking to mount public pressure on gop senators bombarded news outlets in some senator s home states with news releases warning that certain projects may not be funded if the billion stimulus bill isn t passed none of the projects mentioned are actually in the bill rather they are part of a wish list that may be funded from the billion in community development block grants end i could have sworn i heard a bunch of clintonites going on and on raving about how dishonest it was that the rebublicans were taking items from this wish list in order to ridicule this bill now that clinton is using that same list in order to garner support for the bill are you guys going to do the honorable thing and say that clinton is being dishonest as one of the clintonites cited above i ll try to clarify since this is not a case of clinton s dishonesty i won t necessarily defend him on other issues there were never any specific projects included in the community development block grant portion of the president s proposal congressional republicans in an effort to discredit the stimulus package selected what they felt were silly sounding projects from a wish list of potential projects prepared by the us mayors conference before the stimulus package was ever proposed the document in question was designed to pressure the white house to increase the size of the block grant proposal submitted to congress it didn t work the billion proposed in the stimulus package came nowhere close to covering the total estimated cost of the original wish list if it were passed communities would have to select which projects to fund and at what level in the case of spokane wa tom foley s home district no one ever expected to be able to refurbish a local swimming pool one of the republicans examples from the funds available in the stimulus package since the estimated cost of doing so exceeded the total amount of block grant funds the city would receive from the stimulus package for all projects the plan instead was to use the money on public housing construction and remodeling to cope with a severe housing shortage yup there are places where that is true the swimming pool improvements were near the bottom of a long list of priorities prepared by the city the million or so to be received would cover only a few of the most pressing priorities if the block grants are cut from the stimulus package it is these projects that will be affected by the lack of funds and that is why the clinton administration has been publicizing the issue a final point one may or may not like community block grants it is worth noting however that congressional republicans opposition to them is new since the nixon administration republicans have generally supported such grants as an alternative to targeted federal spending arguing that local governments are far better able to determine spending priorities than washington bureaucrats is it clear now or is this all too complicated to understand jsh steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls t r hofferbert ma bell
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10,904 | talk.politics.misc | re how many homosexuals are there in article qmtl r gondor sdsu edu cosc ucssun sdsu edu riyadh al ha jmoosa writes kaldis romulus rutgers edu theodore a kaldis writes perhaps but most likely not more than a new study discrediting kinsey says so the views expressed herein are theodore a kaldis my own only do you seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe that a major university rutgers remus rutgers edu kaldis as this would hold such views my understanding from my psycology classes is that the percentage is more like world wide i would really like to know your source for the figure riyadh moosa sdsu chemistry cosc ucssun sdsu edu some survey conducted by the u s government and some group i don t know which did what they were calling on all the news shows this morning the most comprehensive survey of sexuality in the past years not an exact quote but you get the idea this low percentage is merely one more in a ton of evidence disproving the theory ryan
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10,905 | talk.politics.misc | re new study out on gay percentage in article apr hemlock cray com rja mahogany cray com russ anderson writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes from the santa rosa cal press democrat april p b male sex survey gay activity low a new natonal study on male sexual behavior the most thorough examination of american men s sexual practices published since the kinsey report more than four decades ago shows about percent of the men surveyed had engaged in homosexual sex and percent considered themselves exclusively homosexual actually what the study shows is that percent of the men surveyed said they engaged in homosexual sex and percent said they considered themselves exclusively homosexual yes and of course the kinsey report taken years ago in much more liberal times regarding homosexuality the point being that what people say and what they acutally do may be different it is interesting that this clip from the newspaper did not mention that difference maybe it is conservative media bias or smart enough to realize that that argument would have to apply to every survey regarding homosexuality therefore they would look stupid actually idid see bryant gumble bring that point up hee hee the figures on homosexuality in the study released wednesday by the alan guttmacher institute are significantly lower than the percent figure that has been part of the conventional wisdom since it was published in the kinsey report ryan
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10,906 | talk.politics.misc | a rational viewpoint was re new study out on gay percentage in article c l v jcv news cso uiuc edu dans uxa cso uiuc edu dan s writes don t forget about the culture sadly we don t as a society look upon homosexuality as normal and as we are all too well aware there are alot of people who condemn it as a result the gay population is not encouraged to develop non promiscuous relationships in fact there are many roadblocks put in the way of such committed relationships it is as if the heterosexual community puts these blocks there so as to perpetuate the claim that gays are immoral my if we allowed gays to marry raise children we might just find out they re as moral as we are can t have that can we just some thoughts flame away dan this is a very good point one that i have held for sometime we do not allow people to develop on the paths that they choose or desire even with heterosexuals we tend to leave some hanging in the sense of knowledge and information about sexuality and relationships it is very difficult for a young person to develop and build a positive view of themself when they are constantly being told implicitly and explicitly that they are wrong and immoral the concepts about personal relationships are deeply embedded in emotionalism and fear these fears cover a wide range but mostly jealousy and lack of trust seem to be cornerstones of modern day american relationships we also set on top of this the concepts of madison avenue attractiveness and standards and put the pressure on to measure up
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10,907 | talk.politics.misc | pat robertson says in response to a report by cbn news correspondent ken lormond about a meeting between slick willie and homosexual activists lormond but clinton will not be attending a rally by homosexuals in washington later this month he will instead be out of town on a retreat with senate democrats robertson yeah he d better retreat laughter followed by sustained applause later in a report by correspondent deborah whitsen on the fizzling boycott instigated by homosexuals against colorado whitsen colorado ski resorts have seen record crowds this year despite a call by homosexual activists for boycott of the state there have been record snowfalls in the mountains this year and the skiers have been coming in droves robertson and god said let it snow more sustained applause the views expressed herein are theodore a kaldis my own only do you seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe that a major university rutgers remus rutgers edu kaldis as this would hold such views
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10,908 | talk.politics.misc | new guess out on gay percentage in article c la bwq murdoch acc virginia edu gsh w fermi clas virginia edu greg hennessy writes clayton cramer writes compared to the table i have already posted from masters johnson and kolodny showing male homosexual partners it is apparent that homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general male population did you ever consider the selection effect that those who are willing to admit to being a member sexual minority homosexuality are more willing to admit to being a member of another sexual minority highly promiscious i didn t think that you did greg hennessy university of virginia it is obvious that mr cramer has the ability to take the leap of faith i have listened to several of the men involved in this study and even they claim that the men involved will not tell the whole truth i put little value in extrapolating from these types of studies or surveys they have limited subsets of individuals and there is alot of skewing due to improper selection methods and the bias of the people involved in the studies on both sides subject and researcher would you admit to be part of a group that was not very well liked would you admit to having had sex with other people at some considered abnormal rate this applies to heterosexual men in fact as one gay man and one straight man put it men lie about the number of partners because that s the thing to do our culture for the male almost requires this type of response it may seem harmless and silly but carries a large emotional and mental price tag i hear college male students everyday talking about their supposed conquest they just have to look good to one another at least in their eyes but also know that alot of this does go on there are many college males hetero having a lot of sex with different partners
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10,909 | talk.politics.misc | re new study out on gay percentage in article c la bwq murdoch acc virginia edu gsh w fermi clas virginia edu greg hennessy writes clayton cramer writes compared to the table i have already posted from masters johnson and kolodny showing male homosexual partners it is apparent that homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general male population did you ever consider the selection effect that those who are willing to admit to being a member sexual minority homosexuality are more willing to admit to being a member of another sexual minority highly promiscious oh yeah and men just haaaaate to brag about how many woman they ve had ryan
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10,910 | talk.politics.misc | re the state of justice in apr desire wright edu demon desire wright edu sez a judge denied gm s new trial motion even though gm says it has two new witnesses that said the occupant of the truck was dead from the impact not from the fire thoughts it s kind of scary when you realize that judges are going to start denying new trials even when new evidence that contradicts the facts that led to the previous ruling appear there s this minor thing called interest of finality repose what it means is that parties aren t dragged into court over and over again because the losing side discovers some new evidence i don t know about you brett but i suspect gm had the resources to find just about as many expert and fact witnesses as it wanted before the trial started letting them re open the case now is practically an invitation to every civil litigant on earth to keep an ace in the hole in case the verdict goes against him btw in federal criminal cases rule does permit a motion for a new trial based on newly discovered evidence if made within years of the verdict emphasis mine if you re trying to make a backhanded point about criminal justice in a discussion that has little to do with criminal trials as the estimable david brock did in his amusing wsj piece last week save your breath or has the judge decided that the new witnesses are not to be believed shouldn t that be up to a jury yup which is why they shoulda been brought around the first time through and what about members of the previous jury parading through the talk shows proclaiming their obvious bias against gm shouldn t that be enough for a judge to through out the old verdict and call for a new trial whatever happened to jurors having to be objective unless there s some reason to believe that this supposed bias predated the trial as opposed to being a product of it and that gm was unfairly prevented from discovering it by venireman concealment or otherwise why should gm be allowed to complain moral always choose the right sort of parents before you start in to be rough george ade mark eckenwiler eck panix com cmcl panix eck
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10,911 | talk.politics.misc | re the state of justice in article apr hemlock cray com rja mahogany cray com russ anderson writes there s a guy on death row in texas that was denied a new trial dispite evidence of his inocents i recommend the book adams v texas the story of a man adams who was sentenced to death for a crime he didn t commit most of the book is the story of the long appeals process and the problems and delays caused by not being able to introduce new evidence in certain courts john carr jfc athena mit edu
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10,912 | talk.politics.misc | re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article c l rp ebm news iastate edu jrbeach iastate edu jeffry r beach writes in article apr gordian com mike gordian com michael a thomas writes i really don t want to waste time in here to do battle about the legalization of drugs if you really want to we can get into it and prove just how idiotic that idea is read i do not know what the fuck i m talking about and am not eager to make a fool of myself oh you foolish person i do know what the fuck i m talking about and will gladly demonstrate for such ignorants as yourself if you wish the legalization of drugs will provide few if any of the benefits so highly taunted by its proponents safer cheaper drugs along with revenues from taxes on those drugs reduced crime and reduced organized crime specifically etc etc ahhh the classic truth by blatant assertion technique too bad it s so demonstrably false take a look at great britain sometime for a nice history on drug criminalization the evidence there shows that during periods of time when drugs such as heroin were illegal crime went up and people did die from bad drugs during times when drugs were legalized those trends were reversed if you would like to prove how clueless you are we can get into why again a lot of wasted posts that i don t think this group was intended for and something easily solved by you doing a little research now this is a great example of an ironclad proof gosh i m convinced for the humor impaired first assert something for which you have no evidence then dodge requests for proof by claiming to know what this group was intended for as to research if you d done any at all you d realize that there is plenty of reason to believe that legalizing drugs will have many benefits to society there are some plausible arguments against it too but they aren t enough to convince me that criminalization of drugs is the answer i m willing to be convinced i m wrong but i seriously doubt the likes of you can do it dale cook any town having more churches than bars has a serious social problem edward abbey the opinions are mine only i e they are not my employer s
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10,913 | talk.politics.misc | re the state of justice in article qn ainnmq senator bedfellow mit edu jfc athena mit edu john f carr writes i recommend the book adams v texas the story of a man adams who was sentenced to death for a crime he didn t commit most of the book is the story of the long appeals process and the problems and delays caused by not being able to introduce new evidence in certain courts and i recommend the movie the thin blue line which is about the same case not as much legal detail but still an excellent film it shows how very easy it is to come up with seemingly conclusive evidence against someone whom you think is guilty matthew austern maybe we can eventually make language a matt physics berkeley edu complete impediment to understanding
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10,914 | talk.politics.misc | bush s wi was clinton s wiretapping initiative in article aa inet gw pa dec com blh uiboise idbsu edu broward l horne writes if you look through this newsgroup you should be able to find clinton s proposed wiretapping initiative for our computer networks and telephone systems this initiative has been up before congress for at least the past months in the guise of the fbi wiretapping bill i guess your strength isn t in math clinton hasn t been president for months in other words it s bush s wiretapping initiative i strongly urge you to begin considering your future i strongly urge you to get your application for a passport in the mail soon i strongly urge you to consider moving any savings you have overseas into protected bank accounts while you are still able have you who said anything about panicking snapped authur garrett johnson this is still just culture shock you wait till i ve garrett ingres com settled into the situation and found my bearings then i ll start panicking douglas adams
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10,915 | talk.politics.misc | re national sales tax the movie in article veal utkvm utk edu veal utkvm utk edu david veal writes in article apr alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes in article aa inet gw pa dec com blh uiboise idbsu edu broward l horne writes why don t the republicans get their act together and say they will support a broad based vat that would have to be visible the vat in canada is visible unlike the invisible vats they have in europe and suggest a rate sufficient to halve income and corporate and capital gains tax rates and at a rate sufficient to give the clintons enough revenue for their health care reform the republicans are in general fighting any tax increase there is also worry that a vat would be far too easy to increase incrementally i was a graduate student in the early s and we had a conference on reaganomics where jerry jordan then a member of the council of economic advisors was a speaker i had the pleasure of driving him back to the airport afterwards and since taxes were the main topic of discussion i thought i would ask him about the vat i have favored it for these reasons you mention that the income base is too hazy to define that it taxes savings and investment that it is likely to be more visible he agreed and reported that the cea at that time was in favor of vat so why not propose it i asked he replied that the reagan white house feared that the democrats would introduce vat in addition to the income tax rather than in lieu better not to give them any ideas he said pretty prescient btw what is different between canada s tax and most of europe s that makes it visible yes any canadian readers please tell us if the tax is displayed on price stickers i m relatively certain it is not in europe king sparky banaian it s almost as though young kbanaian pitzer claremont edu white guys get up in the dept of economics pitzer college morning and have a big smile latest gdp forecast on their face because you know homer wrote the iliad d souza
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10,916 | talk.religion.misc | re religion and homosexuality magarret magnus acs ohio state edu computer dudette writes i just recently realized that i am bisexual and also just recently returned to religion and have a good friend who has pointed out to me that homosexuality is a sin in the bible well i don t see how it could be considered a sin first of all as far as i know only male homosexuality is explicitly mentioned in the bibles so you re off the hook there i think in any event there are plenty of people in many denominations who do not consider a person s sexual identification of gay lesbian bisexual as an immoral lifestyle choice also i have always been a somewhat liberal feminist and am pro choice and it seems that being pro choice and being religious don t mix either i am told this is another misconception you are not being told the whole story my former minister is a lesbian and i know personally and professionally several openly gay and lesbian ministers i am a unitarian universalist and like most others in my denomination am pro choice you needn t go looking to the unitarian universalists which is a liberal religion for acceptance of your sexual identification and pro choice views however there are many of us who believe in spirituality and freedom of conscience good luck on your journey daniel o connell meadville lombard theological school university of chicago divinity school dsoconne uchicago edu
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10,917 | talk.religion.misc | re apr god s promise in psalm in article c kdr duz acsu buffalo edu psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu robert weiss writes i will hear what god the lord will speak for he will speak peace unto his people and to his saints but let them not turn again to folly psalm jps for the leader of the korahites a psalm o lord you will favor your land restore jacob s fortune you will forgive your people s iniquity pardon all their sins selah you will withdraw all your anger turn away from your rage turn again o god our helper revoke your displeasure with us will you be angry with us forever prolong your wrath for all generations surely you will revive us again so that your people may rejoice in you show us o lord your faithfulness grant us your deliverance let me hear what god the lord will speak he will promise well being to his people his faithful ones may they not turn to folly his help is very near those who fear him to make his glory dwell in our land faithfulness and truth meet justice and well being kiss truth springs up from the earth justice looks down from heaven the lord also bestows his bounty our land yields its produce justice goes before him as he sets out on his way
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10,918 | talk.religion.misc | re spreading christianity re christian extremist kills doctor not to be too snide about it but i think this christianity must be a very convenient religion very maliable and suitable for any occassion since it seems one can take it any way one wants to go with it and follow whichever bits one pleases and reinterpret the bits that don t match with one s desires it is in fact so convenient that were i capable of believing in a god i might consider going for some brand of christianity the only difficulty left then of course is picking which sect to join there are just so many dean kaflowitz yes christianity is convenient following the teachings of jesus christ and the ten commandments is convenient trying to love in a hateful world is convenient turning the other cheek is convenient so convenient that it is burdensome at times dave there are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke bob dylan never let school interfere with your education mark twain rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated mark twain tact is getting your point across without stabbing someone with it subtlety is saying what you mean then getting out of the way before it is understood if you were happy every day of your life you wouldn t be a human being you d be a game show host taken from the movie heathers
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10,919 | talk.religion.misc | re food for thought on tyre af yfn ysu edu frank decenso jr writes pps am i giving you too many clues too many clues not enough substance you ask a lot of good questions though but they are questions you should be worried about not me i m not the inerrantist here let me know when you are ready to get serious dj
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10,920 | talk.religion.misc | re christian daemons biblical demons the update in article apr sradzy uucp radzy sradzy uucp t o radzykewycz writes swaim owlnet rice edu michael parks swaim writes the file permission of the beast radzy sradzy uucp t o radzykewycz writes sorry but the file permission of the beast is and the file permission of the home directory of the beast is boylan sltg ljo dec com steve boylan writes hey radzy it must depend on your system s access policy i get ls lg usr users total drwxrwxrwx beast system jan beast drwxr x x boylan users mar boylan drwxr xr x guest users sep guest su password root su beast beast umask beast d root d just a minute grep beast etc passwd beast k tuk rauogq not walt disney usr users beast mv usr users beast profile usr users beast profile echo umask usr users beast profile cat usr users beast profile chmod usr users beast mv mailrc mailrc echo beast logged in mail radzy sradzy jack sns com mv mailrc mailrc mv usr users beast profile usr users beast profile d chmod usr users beast profile cat usr users beast profile usr users beast profile waits a while finally gets mail i think you made a mistake check it again i see you re not running ultrix steve don t miss the th new england folk festival april in natick massachusetts
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10,921 | talk.religion.misc | christian devil revealed for a while i was puzzled by the the concept of adam and eve coming to know good and evil this is how i resolved it within god s universe each action evokes an equal and opposite reaction there can be no good without evil as an opposite so the issue is not what you do but to whom you give your allegiance that is why even in this sinful state when we perform an evil act while we are submitted to god he does not place that sinful act to our account rom in the same vein you can perform all the good deeds in the book if your life is not under god s control you are still sinning see rom now take a good look at at an tell me man there is no christian devil there is is real is a virus a meme infecting and possessing the good people and keep em from becoming human beings with emphasis on the being is not a matter of good people an evil people is all good people see but some good people vexed of the christian devil an it can t be burn out or lynch out or rape out only wise up let i rise up christian devil is real man how else can you explain five hundred years of history even more can only be explained by christians invoke christian devil you keep on knocking but you can t come in i got to understand you ve been living in sin but walk right in and sit right down i ll keep on loving you i ll play the clown but bend down low let i tell you what i know yah i ve been buked brothers and i ve been stoned woe woe woe now i m hung by a tree in the the ganging on a few woe woe woe it doesn t matter who the man is who lives the life he loves it doesn t matter what the man does or the honest life he loves i want somewhere i want somewhere hallelujah hallelujah somewhere to lay my head woe is me only ska beat in eaven man stiff necked fools you think you re cool to deny me for simplicity yes you have gone for so long with your love for vanity now yes you have got the wrong interpretation mixed up with vain imagination so take jah sun and jah moon and jah rain and jah stars and forever yes erase your fantasy yeah the lips of the righteous teach many but fools die for want of wisdom the rich man s wealth is in his city the righteous wealth is in his holy place so take jah sun and jah moon and jah rain and jah stars and forever yes erase your fantasy destruction of the poor is in their poverty destruction of the soul is vanity yeah but i don t want to rule ya i don t want to fool ya i don t want to school ya things you you might never know about yes you have got the wrong interpretation mixed up with vain vain imagination stiff necked fools you think you re cool to deny me for oh simplicity love to see when yah move in the rhythm love to see when you re dancing from within it gives great joy to feel such sweet togetherness everyone s doing and they re doing their best it remind i of the days in jericho when we trodden down jericho wall these are the days when we ll trod true babylon gonna trod until babylon fall then i saw the angel with the seven seals saying babylon throne going down we weeping and we wailing tonight
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10,922 | talk.religion.misc | re imaginary friends dragons mice he sounds really cute morte kinds like pete s dragon maybe smaller maybe a different species winge d shakespear wing ed i ve always hat a horde of mice to turn to for fun sort of that kind of mouse in cinderella walt disney i grew up sort of as an only child part time my siblings were years older than me so i was pretty commonly a different sort of charater in their games read non speaking hot cocoa goffer stand in still silent bad guy good guy etc so my mice were playmates more than advisors could curt or whomever has a good list of books please post such list in all sorts of fields like jungian condensed buddist etc philosophies multiple personailty disorders or good fiction that has well worked imaginary friends thanks sheilagh wanting a bunch of library catalouge topics to search thru
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10,923 | talk.religion.misc | re the list of biblical contradictions in article blue cis pitt edu joslin pogo isp pitt edu david joslin writes many good points deleted anyone who missed it should see the original lists like this that just toss a bunch of quotes together to make a bible verse salad just don t cut it those of us who want to argue against inerrancy should find this sort of thing as embarassing as the fundies should find josh mcdowell true except that i ve known few fundies who had enough sense to be embarrassed by josh mcdowell okay maybe a cheap shot but i m in that kind of mood bill mayne
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10,924 | talk.religion.misc | re the list of biblical contradictions someone posted a list of x number of alleged bible contradictions as joslin said most people do value quantity over quality dave butler posted some good quality alleged contradictions that are taking a long time to properly exegete if you want a good list quantity when critics ask a popular handbook on bible difficulties by dr norman geisler deals with over alleged contradictions frank if one wished to contend with him he could not answer him one time out of a thousand job
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10,925 | talk.religion.misc | david koresh messianic cult hello i just read my first newspaper in a while and noticed an article on a messianic cult leader named david koresh i d like to know more about this and what is going on with them please email me as i don t normally read this newsgroup thanks thyagi houseofkaos abyss com
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10,926 | talk.religion.misc | re cannibalism was albert sabin in article zxmkr studserv zxmkr studserv zdv uni tuebingen de c ornelius krasel writes in f q yuc quack kfu com pharvey quack kfu com paul harvey writes in article pk d q access digex net huston access digex com herb huston writes in article f n ep quack kfu com pharvey quack kfu com paul harvey writes do you have any examples of ritual cannibalism particulary amongst the primates why the ritual qualifier i was thinking of instances were a particular food or foods or drinks are used to symbolize or ritualize cannibalism do you know of any human cultures that have this type of mythology for example where one might eat a food as representative of the body of a god thus ritualized cannibalism in the absence of the original i know of ritual cannibalism among tribes in papua neuguinea they used to eat the brain of killed opponents sometimes these brains contained infectious agents which lead to a disease called kuru since cannibalism was banished by the government the number of kuru cases has dropped sharply oh yeah well i know of anyways cannibalism is much more commmon than those who feel that it is wrong and then point out that the fact that western civilisation doesn t do it is proof positive that we are more advanced would have us believe cannibalism is often used in funeral ceremonies as a way of keeping the deceased loved one alive many other cultures including many american indian cultures eat ate the flesh of slain enemies often as a way of showing respect for the valor of the departed hearts are often favored for this as it contains the spirit have you ever read or seen alive which is the story of the argentinian boys soccer team that crashed in the andes and then ate the bodies of those who died in order to survive finger lickin good how about the twighlight zone episode to serve man if you want more info on this a good place to start is on sci anthropology now send me and eat my flesh dan lovall physics purdue edu
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10,927 | talk.religion.misc | re the number of the beast viewer discr in article c j k d rice edu swaim owlnet rice edu michael parks swaim said posted on mar at by michael parks swaim in article c him brf cs psu edu jdh math psu edu jeremy d hall writes well i will do the math and i get this mean anything to anyone thus fitting in neatly with something else and everything under the sun is in tune what was jabba the nd the sun is eclipsed by the moon hut smoking pink floyd alex eclipse curious
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10,928 | talk.religion.misc | zoroastrianism san jose merc news article zoroastrianism san jose ca usa monday april san jose mercury news page reproduced without permission year tradition still glows assimilation in u s threatens ancient zoroastrian religion by jeanne huber mercury news staff writer high on a hillside above san jose flames leap up hours a day from a gleaming brass urn in a temple one of only four in the united states dedicated to one of the world s most ancient religions with the flames go the prayers of about bay area zoroastrians that their faith will survive this land there is a fear a real fear too said silloo tarapore of lafayette we have one generation to do it or to die many immigrant groups struggle to maintain an identity in a strange land but for zoroastrians it is an especially poignant concern their religion has been around for perhaps years a heritage so deep it scarcely seems comprehensible in a state where historical sites are sometimes less than years old it was the religion of the great persian empire under kings cyrus and darius and tradition says that when christ was born about years later he was honored by a visit from three zoroastrian priests the magi scholars say many key beliefs of christians jews and muslims can be traced to the teachings of zoroaster the zoroastrian prophet yet with only about zoroastrians in the entire world they are a miniscule minority in every country in which they live survival as a people is very much on their minds ironically local zoroastrians fear that the almost unlimited tolerance of the united states may do what hundreds of years of persecution followed by nearly years of benign religious segregation could not do cause their young people to stop thinking of themselves as zoroastrians zoroastrians do not believe theirs is the only right religion and they actually shun the notion of trying to win converts so if their children become totally assimilated they say it s their children rather than the world at large who will be the losers it s important to have an identity said maneck bhujwaia of san jose a leader among zoroastrians who came here from india it s important for everybody irish scottish americans it gives meaning to life you don t have to depend on the majority community to give you respect you can fall back on your own identity for zoroastrians there s much to be proud of their prophet zoroaster seeking to make sense of a culture in which animal sacrifice to multiple gods was common preached that there was only one god a good one zoroastrians call their god ahura mazda which translates as lord of wisdom and light good vs evil zoroaster saw life as a constant struggle between good and evil with the good eventually winning men and women could join in the battle for good he said and he warned that they would inevitably suffer consequences such as shame and sorrow if they did wrong he preached honesty charity kindness to animals respect for the environment hard work equality of men and women basic virtues preached by prophets of many religions but zoroaster was perhaps unusual in that he told his followers not to follow him blindly he demanded they think for themselves in fact joseph campbell the famous scholar of the history and meaning of myths traced the western emphasis on individual thought to the zoroastrians zoroastrians have many words for thought their motto leaded into a stained glass window over the sacred fire at the temple on the slopes of mount hamilton is good thoughts good words good deeds so it s not surprising that zoroastrians value education highly in india where a contingent of zoroastrians arrived in the ninth century to escape persecution by muslims in iran zoroastrians claim percent literacy the overall statistic in india is just percent about half of the bay area zoroastrian community came here from india and pakistan mostly to study at universities the other half fled from iran after the revolution made that a fundamentalist islamic state where others had no rights local zoroastrians point with pride to ways their emphasis on good deeds has improved life in every country they inhabit in san jose the recent restoration of the hotel sainte clarie came about because manou mobedshahi a san francisco based hotelier passed the boarded up downtown landmark on his way to and from the temple at the temple s dedication the chief guest of honor was the mother of zubin mehta the zoroastrian conductor of the new york philharmonic orchestra the temple exists because of another good deed the decision by an iranian emigre the late arbab rustom guiv to buy land for six temples in north america besides the acre site off crothers road on mount hamilton he paid for land in los angeles chicago new york toronto and vancouver until his gifts there were no zoroastrian temples on this continent local zoroastrians raised money to build the actual temple and the property already had a large house that they have converted to a community center the temple dedicated a year ago on the birthday of the prophet zoroaster is a simple structure with gleaming white walls vaulted ceilings and oak floors partially covered with huge oriental carpets its central feature is the fire set in the middle of a partly glassed in area at the center of the building although zoroastrians are sometimes called fire worshippers they actually consider fire just a symbol of god it helps us concentrate just like christians use the cross and muslims use the holy book bhujwala said the biggest celebration of the years occurs in early spring for all iranians including zoroastrians the new year begins on the first day of the season because of its symbolism as the start of new life with zoroaster s birthday just six days later the combination of religious and secular holidays creates something on par with what most of the united states celebrates between christmas and jan for this year s celebration of the prophet s birthday about people came to worship and revel the good things in life are not forbidden esfandiar anoushiravani a leader of the iranian members had said beforehand and what followed proved him right inside the temple worshipers filled every chair and sat or stood around the edges of the room as about a half dozen priests chanted thanksgiving prayers around a table laden with braziers of smoking sandalwood glasses of milk and water and a tray heaped with dried fruit and nuts kids crowded around grabbing handfuls of the treats people eat the fruit tarapore said it s a way to participate in the ceremony santa claus sort of the gathering even had a santa claus iranian style with flowing white hair and a bag of gifts for the children this amownaroz wore green symbolic of spring and red he was ushed in by a sort of spring clown hajefyrouz who danced and played a tambourine the zoroastrians from india were charmed this is all new for us too one told a visitor who asked what was going on a visitor john a sabanovich of folsom said he became intrigued with the religion years ago while on business trips to iran zoroastrians have no procedure for accepting converts a result some say of their centuries of persecution in iran followed by their promise to the hindu king who allowed them into india that they would not interfere with his people s religion but that does not stop sabavich from joining in the celebrations at the san jose temple whenever he can when i first heard about this religion he said i thought my god this is what a religion should be they think for themselves and do good people who don t have a tradition something to lean on what s the difference with the lower animals end of article
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10,929 | talk.religion.misc | re the list of biblical contradictions joslin pogo isp pitt edu david joslin writes i m curious to know what purpose people think these lists serve lists like this seem to value quantity over quality an argument from article length and the list you have here is of poorer quality than most i agree which is why i ve asked for help with it the reason i m working on this list is because i ve recently had one too many christians tell me the bible contains no contradictions whatsoever they believe that it s true and that it describes reality perfectly and even predicts history before it happens before i can carry on any sort of meaningful conversation with these people i ve got to show them with concrete evidence that the bible is not nearly as airtight as they thought i hope to do that with this list specifically when i bring up the fact that genesis contains two contradictory creation stories i usually get blank stares or flat denials i ve never had a fundamentalist acknowledge that there are indeed two different accounts of creation brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j ai vus j ose croire n etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent the meaning of life si je ne vaux pas mieux au moins je suis autre is that it ends rousseau
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10,930 | talk.religion.misc | re bhagavad gita kalki dasa writes these topics are all discussed in the vedas in fact the original knowledge of all these topics comes from the vedas therefore they are not newage at all they are rather old by any standards nor is the popularity they are currently experiencing something new one would think that the vedas would be very popular among newagers since all the things you mention above are thoroughly described in them isn t that interesting in the jewish tradition you are incredibly wrong they originate in the torah and with jewish ancestors specifically the patriarch abraham z l that knowledge was sent east to india and china when abraham gave gifts the commentators to jewish scripture say this was the knowledge of the occult arts to all the rest of his children when he sent them away to the east this assured that isaac only who remained with abraham would inherit his most important spiritual gifts what eventually became judaism so you see other religions can have very parochial views too by the jewish view you are very mistaken your scripture are not scripture your gods are not gods your practices a jumble of errors that lead people to idol worship and away from god that doesn t stop us from respecting you to the extent of not trying to convert you or proselytize you and being willing to dialog in a respectful manner we re content to let you live the way you care to live as long as you leave us be we are happy to co exist as long as you give us the same right but your incredible rudeness and violent nature seems to preclude that too bad is this typical of your religion however there is one difference between the newage practitioner and the actual follower of the vedic teachings the typical newager desires to acquire all the material powers and opulences mentioned in the vedas without referring to their source the lord he wants the kingdom of god without god he wants personal power without the responsibility of acknowledging its source without the person from whom that power comes in other words he is just plain selfish you are a most presumptuous fellow how dare you presume that the typical new ager doesn t acknowledge god and is selfish what trite self righteous ego ful garbage there are buddhists christians jews and those of many other religions here on this newsgroups for whom your words are simple slander the vedic follower on the other hand knows that no matter what one desires one must worship god and the vedas give a complete description of exactly who is god so that there can be no mistake in his identification for this reason the parts of the vedas that deal directly with the personality of godhead are not very popular among newagers and anyone who presents the complete vedas as they are is branded as an evangelist as if there is something wrong with that even though he is simply presenting the unadulterated vedic teachings of course from the jewish perspective you are incredibly wrong we d say that there is no godhead just created beings who may be enjoying a good laugh at your expense a thief takes from others and says this is mine a newager takes from god and says this is mine such a false mystic must be careful to avoid coming in contact with the real owner of the things he has stolen consequently he invents an explanation for these things that conveniently omits the identity of their owner the lord in other words he lies about where he got them so not only are we selfish we are also thieves and liars and you expect any of us to pay attention to you and your religion why not call us more name maybe then we ll all convert in gratefullness however the lord is very merciful and he sends his servants to remind the newager of his own identity as spirit soul the eternal servant of god hence although unwanted the evangelist continues to broadcast the complete truth you delude yourself len moskowitz moskowit panix com
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10,931 | talk.religion.misc | re question for those with popular morality in article apr microsoft com bobsarv microsoft com bob sarver writes understand what the words mean someone who inflicts pain on themselves because they enjoy it is a masochist and no there is nothing wrong with it you may think it s gross or bizarre and i might agree with you here but my your disgust is not equal to it being morally wrong hudson if someone inflicts pain on themselves whether they enjoy it or not they are hurting themselves they may be permanently damaging their body that is true it is also none of your business some people may also reason that by reading the bible and being a xtian you are permanently damaging your brain by your logic it would be ok for them to come into your home take away your bible and send you off to re education camps to save your mind from ruin are you ready for that hudson and why is there nothing wrong with it because you say so who gave you the authority to say that and set the standard for morality why because i am a living thinking person able to make choices for myself i do not need you to show me what you think is the way i have observed too many errors in your thinking already to trust you to make up the rules for me because i set the standard for my own morality and i permit you to do the same for yourself i also do not try to force you to accept my rules because simply because you don t like what other people are doing doesn t give you the right to stop it hudson we are all aware that you would like for everyone to be like you however it is obnoxious arrogant thinking like yours the i know i m morally right so i can force it on you bullshit that has brought us religious wars pogroms against jews gay bashing and other atrocities by other people who like you knew they were morally right me what is it with you hudson you think you know better than other people so you want to be able to tell them what they can and cannot do to themselves who died and made you god how come i can t do the same thing hudson aren t you aren t you indicating that i should not tell other people what to do aren t you telling me it is wrong for me to do that it is not a moral standard that i am presenting you with hudson it is a key to getting along in life with other people it is also a point of respect i trust other people to be intelligent enough to make their own choices and i expect the same to be returned you on the other hand do not trust them and want to make the choice for them whether they like it or not it is also a way to avoid an inconsistency if you believe that you have the right to set moral standards for others and interfere in their lives then you must by logic admit that other people have the same right of interference in your life yes i know you will say that your religion is correct and tells you that only agents acting in behalf of your religion have the right of interference however other people will say that you have misinterpreted the word of god and that they are the actual true believers and that you are acting on your own authority and so it goes hudson who gave you the authority to set such a moral standard for me to tell me that i cannot set a moral standard for others you can set all the standards that you want actually but don t be surprised if people don t follow you like rats after the pied piper at the most basic form i am not going to let you tell me what to do and if necessary i will beat you to a bloody pulp before i let you actually interfere in my life now at a more humane level than that i recognize that all people are sentient beings possessed of intelligence and capable of reason i also recognize that they like i appreciate being treated with respect and allowed to make their own decisions
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10,932 | talk.religion.misc | re question for those with popular morality hudson these people hurt their own bodies why can t they hurt other peoples bodies too me because other people might not want to be hurt hudson and hurting them against their will is a violation of choice hudson so why is someone elses will such a big deal if morality is all relative i don t believe i ever said that morality was all relative what i said was that i can make my mind up on my own thank you and that you don t have the right to tell others what to think i think that you will find that in most moral systems there is a respect for human life and the dignity of the person it is all the stuff besides these points that forms the core of the disagreement between primitive moral absolutists like yourself and the rest of us hudson maybe the insane lover of pain might reason if other people experienced enough pain they might learn to enjoy it too fine there is still the clinical definition of crazy and this also involves a violation of free will because the insane lover of your little example would be inflicting pain on a non willing subject try again hudson you have to have other premises to derive this me no you don t that is a patently false statement hudson you have to have some sort of premise about choice or self awareness no you do not i demonstrated to you the example of the football team which doesn t require premises about freedom of choice or sentience self awareness as i said you are wrong and you don t seem to know much about moral systems if i were you i would take david bold s suggestion and do some reading on the subject before you try preaching about it
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10,933 | talk.religion.misc | re question for those with popular morality hudson yes you do who is to say that it is immoral for onesself to experience pain or to be hurt in some other way maybe unpleasant but that doesn t say anything about morality it violates free will hudson me you can derive the immorality of hurting someone else entirely from selfish motives i can say for example that it is wrong to hurt other people because that makes them less productive members of society hudson why is making someone a less productive member of society immoral hudson you are screwing up again morality does not i say again does not define only right and wrong it also defines acceptable social behavior without any overtones of good and evil picking up your trash is not really a right wrong moral issue in the eternal sense of good and evil yet it is moral in the sense that it is acceptable social behavior your definition of the word morality is what is causing you to trip over yourself here me and since i selfish being that i am want to maximize my gains from society i will not do anything to another member of society if that action might cut down on how much benefit i can derive from society hudson why is your benefit somehow related to morality again your definition is causing you to shoot yourself in the foot hudson what about if someone feels that their own personal benefit is enhanced more than it would be damaged by depleting the overall resources of society maybe something might hurt society but it would help him immensly that is irrational thinking there may also be people out there who think that death by atomic destruction is a sublime and wonderful thing i am not going to let them execute that idea just because they want to do it simply because i let people make up their minds about what morals they have doesn t prevent me from spotting and stopping a madman when i see one hudson and even then i will only stop him when he interferes with me and my life that is the difference between me and you you want to interfere in people s lives even when they aren t affecting you hudson the central character in dostoevsky s novel crime and punishment r something or other reasoned that if killed this old jewish woman and stole her money to educate and establish himself financially he could make a great contribution to society he reasoned that she was not of much profit to society she just collected rents and hoarded money one of the central points of any that s any moral system is that is has to be internally consistent by killing her the character had to accept the premise that the ends justify the means if he accepted that premise then in order to be consistent he must accept the idea that some day another person may apply the same standard to his life now if he is unwilling to accept this premise which he will not be willing to accept then he has behaved inconsistently with his own moral standard me football example deleted hudson now suppose a freshman on the bench will only get to play if one of the players in the field on the court is injured or killed this freshman wants to play in the big game so a talent scout can see him if he hurts a player on the team it might slightly lessen the chances of the team to win but he might gain great personal benefit so operating on purely selfish immorally selfish motives he arranges for a sniper to shoot a team player in the leg he gets to play in front of the talent scout did that freshman behave morally selfish intentions may sometimes generate apparently moral actions but not always two problems right off the bat the problem with your analogy is that it doesn t address the goal that i started with winning the game playing in front of the talent scout winning the game try creating the same analogy and keep the ultimate goal the same will you the internal consistency question is also not addressed if the freshman wants to do this to other people then he has to accept the fact that it may happen to him one day if he is unwilling then he has violated his own moral standard
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10,934 | talk.religion.misc | re question for those with popular morality hudson and from a materialistic point of view it could be said that the nervous system is just matter what is wrong with producing chemical reactions in matter because this matter is different it is alive and self aware and it feels pain hudson if all morality were relative big hairy deal as i said you appear to be the only person saying that all morality is relative most people i know do hold some absolutes in their moral system i personally believe that the dignity of the individual and the right of free will are absolutes i recognize that there are some moral systems around which don t accept this i reject them as dangerous and anti social nazism some forms of communism fundamentalist xtianity no that s not a slam but for the most part almost every moral system agrees on these two points me and the sky and everything in it everything that was created came out of god everything including this matter is part of god therefore is it wrong to put parts of god in a test tube and make it go through reactions isn t that a form of blasphemy hudson generally christians believe in a creator creation distinction other religions believe in one big whole i don t accept yor premises too bad i know i m right so i get to enforce my view upon you whether you like my premise or not and since you can t prove otherwise there isn t even an intellectual basis for your resistance to accepting my viewpoint hudson how long will it be before the as long as it doesn t hurt someone else becomes more and more relative until the only rule that is left is i will do what i want to do no matter who it hurts there s a big jump between those two positions and you know it very well don t play stupid i realize that you re trying to dispute what you call popular morality by using what you think is logic but you re stretching this a bit too thin hudson i don t think so once morality becomes relative it degenerates i am saying that reasoning that it is generally evil to hurt other people is bad though i don t think it is sufficient well then answer me this you seem to be opposed to moral relativism as you call it because it has the capacity to degenerate obviously then you would advocate a nonrelative absolute moral system whose absolutist moral system do we choose how do we come to this decision what about people who disagree with the chosen moral system hudson but if morality is considered to be relative and this rule isn t based on anything but is just an arbitrary rule people might abandon it fine i can agree with most of what you typed here however just because morality gets based on something nonrelative does not mean that we have to pick your xtianity as its base we can start a morality based on dignity of humans freedom of choice tolerance etc and never ever rely on xtianity for anything just because someone has a consistent moral system based on true principles does not mean that they have to involve xtianity in it xtianity certainly does not have a monopoly on principles of behavior indeed fewer religions are guiltier of violating their own principles
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10,935 | talk.religion.misc | re question for those with popular morality in article apr microsoft com bobsarv microsoft com bob sarver writes why would it be immoral to hurt someone else me because you wouldn t want it to happen to you hudson why does that make something immoral because you are not being consistent moral systems must be consistent a person who thinks they can inflict pain on others but doesn t want it inflicted upon themselves has a double standard and double standards are a violation of any moral system me morality defines how we interact with other people the rules that we use to guide our daily affairs our conduct towards our fellow man by realizing that we don t like pain we can also realize that other people don t like it either hudson of course we don t like pain i don t like brussel sprouts are brussel sprouts immoral pain isn t immoral stupid pain itself is just a physiological reaction what is immoral is subjecting unwilling individuals to pain or brussel sprouts for that matter hudson is it immoral to produce these same chemical reactions in a test tube me it isn t the chemical reaction that is wrong bozo it s making the human being undergo the effects of the chemical reaction sorry your cute little analogy didn t survive for very long under scrutiny hudson why would it be wrong to make humans undergo the effects of the reactions if humans are composed only of matter what humans are composed of isn t the qualifying criteria of whether or not something would be wrong hudson is it wrong to make matter undergo chemical reactions yes if it is sentient matter me nature is not a sentient force there is no choice involved therefore no question of morality hudson i actually heard a geologist entertain the notion that matter had a will there is some sentient force out there fine i have also heard that the government is encoding the dna for a new race of superhumans in ordinary drinking water what s your point hudson if humans are made only of matter then choices are also chemical reactions so why is choice an important issue and if that is the case then god is only an idea contained in the minds of people formed of matter and on printed pages also formed of matter and does not really exist i can do the argumentem ad absurdium just as well as you can but it won t prove any points for you or me got anything relevant you want to talk about or are you just playing cute little games
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10,936 | talk.religion.misc | re the list of biblical contradictions in article bskendigc cqb k r netcom com bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes specifically when i bring up the fact that genesis contains two contradictory creation stories i usually get blank stares or flat denials i ve never had a fundamentalist acknowledge that there are indeed two different accounts of creation that is because two creation stories is one of the worst examples of a difficulty with the bible were formed can also be translated had been formed in chapter two without any problems so the text does not demand that there are two creation stories link hudson
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10,937 | talk.religion.misc | re question for those with popular morality in article apr midway uchicago edu dsoconne midway uchicago edu writes but there is a base of true absolute morality that we can stand on note that if the majority of people remain unconvinced this idea probably isn t worth very much in a pragmatic sense maybe not to you but to those who stand on this base he is precious link
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10,938 | talk.religion.misc | re religion and homosexuality in article apr midway uchicago edu dsoconne midway uchicago edu writes first of all as far as i know only male homosexuality is explicitly mentioned in the bibles so you re off the hook there actually there is one condemnation of lesbian acts in the bible romans i think in any event there are plenty of people in many denominations who do not consider a person s sexual identification of gay lesbian bisexual as an immoral lifestyle choice there are plenty who don t read the bible or pray for that matter link hudson
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10,939 | talk.religion.misc | re bhagavad gita a poster writes in the kingdom of god vaikuntha the tigers do not eat other living beings in the material world everyone is trying to consume everyone else therefore we all even tigers who are by no means invincible should try to get out of the miserable material situation and return to the kingdom of god is the so called material world outside the kingdom of god right but unfortunately acting like animals is the number one pastime of modern human beings aha animals are inferior and humans are superior huh isn t the desire to be superior so overwhelming that humans constantly put down even innocent animals raj p s request please e mail a copy of any response to raj as he does not read trm regularly
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10,940 | talk.religion.misc | re mark of the beast need info on a slightly different note there are two buildings in ny state with big numbers on the roof one in manhattan and one near garden city the garden city one is a nice black unmarked building join the pythagorean reform church repent of your evil irrational numbers and bean eating ways accept into your heart call the pythagorean reform church bbs at
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10,941 | talk.religion.misc | re the list of biblical contradictions hudson athena cs uga edu paul hudson jr writes bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes specifically when i bring up the fact that genesis contains two contradictory creation stories i usually get blank stares or flat denials i ve never had a fundamentalist acknowledge that there are indeed two different accounts of creation that is because two creation stories is one of the worst examples of a difficulty with the bible were formed can also be translated had been formed in chapter two without any problems so the text does not demand that there are two creation stories really i don t get it genesis first says that god created the earth then the animals then humans then it turns around and says that humans were created before animals how can you escape this contradiction brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j ai vus j ose croire n etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent the meaning of life si je ne vaux pas mieux au moins je suis autre is that it ends rousseau
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10,942 | talk.religion.misc | re lds kermit s reply was re tony rose was free book of mormon robert weiss psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu wrote lots of stuff about the nicene creed deleted which can be read in the original basenote i will also leave it up to other lds netters to take mr weiss to task on using mormon doctrine to declare the difinitive word on what the lds church teaches as doctrine hopefully the lds netters will be amiable in their explanation since it would do no good to rebut what mr weiss has stated on the origin of the nicene creed and its status as devine and inspired i say no good because it cannot be proved through discussion or debate as to whether or not the authors of the creed were inspired i leave you it will be some time before i post again with the following thought authored by eugene england professor of english at brigham young university mr england wrote the following as part of a book review section in this people s magazine spring edition i conclude with a little sermon because i believe we will not be a mormon or human family until we can get over labeling and rejecting each other with terms like feminist or patriarchal liberal or conservative christian or non christian hal when we are tempted to draw a circle around a set of beliefs and traditions and styles and call it american then exclude those who don t fit it may be well to consider that perhaps the most central defining characteristic of a good american might be one who doesn t draw exclusive circles that the surest way of excluding ourselves from the central american ideal is by excluding others and when we are tempted to draw a circle around mormon or christian to decide who is orthodox and who isn t by how much they agree with us it might be well to consider that the central pillar of christ s orthodoxy is our ability to love unconditionally those who are different and include them in our family i recently spent some time in a christian bookstore in california the service was excellent the clerks and customers all smiling neat and well scrubbed and there were the expected wholesome offerings of scriptural commentaries sentimental fiction and collections of evangelistic sermons but i was dismayed to find how much shelf space was given to attacking others often viciously whether the political left our modern american culture or other religions a whole section was devoted to cults and the occult and as you might expect mormonism was right there under the same rubric and indictment often by the same authors as satanism and i found i could either rent or buy in english or spanish copies of the god makers that absurdly inaccurate even libelous but very popular and dangerous anti mormon film that uses exaclty the same techniques and even accusations of the nazi films that scapegoated jews in the s it seems to me one major indication that a person is a genuine convert to christ and his redemptive love is his lack of paranoia and anxiety perfect love casteth out fear i john i have always been pleased that the lds church has not engaged in attacks on other faiths though i find a disheartening increase in willingness of individual mormons to engage in the same kinds of stereotyping and scapegoating and even threats of coercive action as the religious right wing has launched this year against the political left and american cultural and religious styles they don t like it is a fearful irony that in so doing mormons take common cause with the very people who have most slanderously attacked mormons people who would if they had power forcefully restrict mormons rights along with those of others they believe to be evil the above sermon was addressed to the lds audience who usually subscribe to this people s magazine but would certainly apply to all of us who rely on the mercies and grace of jesus christ to bring us back into his arms even though the lds church claims devine authority to exercise the principles of the restored gospel as in the days of christ the church does not claim perfection and infallibility in how those with authoritative status have or do now lead the church i for one do not wish to be labelled christian if those who profess themselves as christians attack my beliefs because they are intollerent for example of the way my religion may interpret biblical scriptures of the same source to have a different meaning and implication than mainstream christianity would give it once again being in the majority does not in and of itself prove anything except that your collective voice is louder that s really all the critics of the lds church have to stand on in terms of the kind of biblical interpretation used as proof to counter the lds church interpretation using someone elses biased research of truths and non truths whose to say what the mixture is as an authoritative tool to disprove or discredit is not being fair to anyone least of all themselves let us simply agree to disagree and share beliefs through adult discussion and conversation thereby uplifting everyone hal leifson signing off
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10,943 | talk.religion.misc | re spreading christianity re christian extremist kills doctor david r sacco dsav andrew cmu edu writes not to be too snide about it but i think this christianity must be a very convenient religion very maliable and suitable for any occassion since it seems one can take it any way one wants to go with it and follow whichever bits one pleases and reinterpret the bits that don t match with one s desires it is in fact so convenient that were i capable of believing in a god i might consider going for some brand of christianity the only difficulty left then of course is picking which sect to join there are just so many dean kaflowitz yes christianity is convenient following the teachings of jesus christ and the ten commandments is convenient trying to love in a hateful world is convenient turning the other cheek is convenient so convenient that it is burdensome at times dave some christians take a discount off the ten commandments sunday cannot be substituted for the sabbath
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10,944 | talk.religion.misc | apr god s promise in john hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name ask and ye shall receive that your joy may be full john
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10,945 | talk.religion.misc | lds hal s reply in article c nls as boi hp com hall boi hp com hal leifson writes dr england s story deleted it was a nice read the first time through now lead the church i for one do not wish to be labelled christian if those who profess themselves as christians attack my beliefs because they are intollerent for example of the way my religion may interpret biblical scriptures of the same source to have a different meaning and implication than mainstream christianity would give it it isn t so much a matter of interpretation of bible texts that sets mormonism apart from orthodoxy as it is a matter of fabrication about years ago national lampoon had some comic strips in them that were drawn by neal adams they were called son o god comics it was a parody of the jesus in the bible in the comic there were a group of thirteen jewish kids from brooklyn and when one of them said the magic word he turned into son o god he went from a myopic curly headed yarmulke wearing boy to a replica of the stylizied portraits of jesus with long flowing brown hair and gentile features now if someone were to profess faith in this natlamp jesus and claim that they were a christian because they believed in this natlamp jesus we would have to say that this was fallacious since this jesus was a fabrication and did not really exist this is the exact same thing that the lds do when they claim that they are christian they profess faith in jesus but the jesus that they profess to have faith in is as much a fabrication as the natlamp jesus was robert weiss psyrobtw ubvms cc buffalo edu
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10,946 | talk.religion.misc | re the number of the beast viewer discr in article pr d doh cat cis brown edu st brownvm brown edu alex gottschalk writes well i will do the math and i get this mean anything to anyone thus fitting in neatly with something else of course which quite obviously is r
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10,947 | talk.religion.misc | re question for those with popular morality paul hudson jr hudson athena cs uga edu writes i was not directly going to come up with a moral argument for the existence of god rather i was trying to show the absurdity of atheistic materialist relatavists trying to embrace some common moral system as though it were absolute man knows in his heart that there is right and wrong we have all inherited this knowledge no matter how absurd it is to suggest that a common moral system created by mankind is absolute it is not contrary to reason to suggest that a common moral system created by mankind is sensible in fact for the bible to be of any use to mankind as a moral code it must be interpreted by mankind and a workable moral system created for everyday use the jewish talmud is the result of centuries of biblical scholars analysing every word of the torah to understand the morality behind it the children of israel were given a very strict set of moral civil judicial and ceremonial laws to follow and yet this was clearly not enough to cover every instance of moral dilemma in their society for a christian the situation is no better it seems to me that the only code of morality that we have from the judeo christian god is that which is contained in the bible which we can see from the diverse opinions in the christian newsgroups is not clear there may well be an absolute morality defined by the judeo christian god for mankind to follow but it seems that we only have a subset simply because the concept was written down by man this leads to the problem of defining morality for our society if we take the divine morality then we have a code of practice which may be interpreted in many different ways as an example consider the immolation of heretics in the fifteenth century and the interpretation of the bible which allows a man to do that to another man under the precept to administer justice if we take an agnostic morality then we have a code of practice that can be modified to suit society with all the danger that this implies alternatively we could take the basis of the judeo christian morality and interpret extend this to create and justify a code of morality which suits the society we live in and enables the people to live righteously as many christian and non christian philosophers have done whatever the driving force behind the definition of morality for our society i think the important aspect is the result david on religion oh where is the sea the fishes cried as they swam its clearness through
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10,948 | talk.religion.misc | fragmentation the primary problem in human nature is a fragmentation of being humans are in a state of tension a tension of opposites good and evil are the most thought provoking polarities that come to mind the bible provides us with many examples of the fragmentation of being the warring opposites within us are a product of man s rebellion against god which is described so vividly in the pages of the scriptures man was created with the order to become a god those were the words of st basil in the fourth century what he was trying to say was that god created man to be a partaker of the divine nature in the eastern orthodox church this is called theosis or deification one can also say that man was created to be whole i e spirit soul and body operating in unison the story of adam and eve is a picture of the archetypal humans before obtaining moral consciousness theirs was a harmonious relationship with each other the world and the creator that innocent harmony was shattered when they disobeyed god their natural wholeness falling apart into two seemingly irreconcilable halves immediately guilt and fear was manifested in their lives they become bound to hardship toil and suffering this is symbolized in their exile from the paradisiac state the beast in the jungle does not possess moral consciousness if it were to receive this self awareness the knowledge of good and evil its paradisiac state would also be destroyed was it the intention of the creator to leave man in this state of innocence all the days of his existence on earth or was the gaining of self awareness carefully staged by god who did not desire that his masterpiece mankind be a blissful idiot god must have known that for mankind to achieve any kind of moral value he must pass through a confrontation with the opposites there is no other way to achieve union with god jesus christ is the answer to the problem of the warring polarities he was the perfectly integrated individual reconciling the opposites and making it possible for us to be integrated i e to become god not in his essence but in his energies the opposites is the christian problem the apostle paul describes it with the utmost precision in romans and he follows with the answer to his dilemma in vs mark
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10,949 | talk.religion.misc | re is thou shalt not kill ever applied in the bible in pdj binnrtr crcnis unl edu e p unl edu edgar pearlstein wrote are there any places in the bible where the commandment thou shalt not kill is specifically applied that is where someone refrained from killing because he remembered the commandment no for the excellent reason that there is no such commandment aside from that please note that the abrahamic literary tradition is strong on narrative light on dialog and virtually nonexistent w r t introspection d c sessions speaking for myself note new network address dcs witsend tnet com author and everything else of tmail dos mail news shell
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10,950 | talk.religion.misc | re spreading christianity re christian extremist kills doctor in article yfk p q wbm t sj andrew cmu edu david r sacco dsav andrew cmu edu writes not to be too snide about it but i think this christianity must be a very convenient religion very maliable and suitable for any occassion since it seems one can take it any way one wants to go with it and follow whichever bits one pleases and reinterpret the bits that don t match with one s desires it is in fact so convenient that were i capable of believing in a god i might consider going for some brand of christianity the only difficulty left then of course is picking which sect to join there are just so many yes christianity is convenient following the teachings of jesus christ and the ten commandments is convenient trying to love in a hateful world is convenient turning the other cheek is convenient so convenient that it is burdensome at times your last remark is a contradiction but i ll let that pass i was addressing the notion of the great commission which you deleted in order to provide us with dull little homilies thank you bing crosby now you go right on back to sleep and mommy and daddy will tuck you in later oh and how convenient his bible must have been to michael griffin how convenient his christianity well i ll just skip the bit about not murdering people and loving the sinner and hating the sin and all that other stuff for now and concentrate on the part where it says that if someone is doing something wrong you should shoot him in the back several times as he tries to hobble away on his crutches i ll leave the convert or die program of the missionaries and their military escorts in the americas for nadja to explain as she knows much more about it than i must be awfully convenient by the way to offer platitudes as you have done david rather than addressing the arguments dean kaflowitz
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10,951 | talk.religion.misc | re sunday the day of our lord pharvey quack kfu com paul harvey writes dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu darius lecointe writes exactly sunday worship is in honor or the sun not the son of god same thing isn t it it s pronounced the same what other heavenly beings are resurrected the moon that would by lunacy at least to a sunday worshiper i have heard that the sabbath was originally determined by the phases of the moon and had elements of moon worship early stuff egyptian in nature larry caldwell caldwell ohsu edu compuserve oregon health sciences university
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10,952 | talk.religion.misc | re the number of the beast viewer discretion is advised un resolution guarantees humanitarian aid will get into irag during the gulf war is this war over is aid getting in or are they still trying to smoke out saddam is this the middle east are we talking religious war here am i ranting james owens ad freenet carleton ca ottawa ontario canada
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10,953 | talk.religion.misc | re religion and homosexuality in article c uzus fkp mailer cc fsu edu dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu darius lecointe writes lfoard hopper virginia edu lawrence c foard writes unlike kleptomaniacs and adulterers homosexuals hurt no one by having sex with the same sex what about the homosexual whose family does not accept that decision and is hurt emotionally by it good question i don t have a nice concise answer though what about the child whose parents are crushed emotionally because he she starts a carerr doing something they greatly dislike it is the same kind of harm and is probably caused by the same thing the desire of the child to be true to his or her self what is more important being true to yourself or burying that truth within you in order to maintain peace in the family hard question no good answer lance
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10,954 | talk.religion.misc | biblical contradictions answered judas i posted this several days ago for dave butler he may have missed it my usenet board has changed a little just in case he missed it here it is again dave butler writes from daveb pogo wv tek com dave butler newsgroups talk religion misc subject re new biblical contradictions fallaciously answered judas date thu apr i can basically restrict this post to showing the type of evidence mr decenso has presented and answering his two questions and a couple of his spurious insults and false claims my reply o k db by the way mr decenso you really should have looked in the index of your bauer arndt gingrich greek lexicon you would have found that the word in acts for lot is kleros not chorion as stated by mr archer and nowhere in the very large discussion of kleros in done the to theological dictionary of the new testament by bromley is the meaning burial plot discussed it discusses the forms of kleros eg kleros kleroo etc and the various meanings of kleros eg plot of land and inheritance but mentions nothing about chorion or burial plot why does this not surprise me thus it would seem to be a very good thing you dumped archer as a reference db later corrected himself from daveb pogo wv tek com dave butler newsgroups talk religion misc subject re new biblical contradictions fallaciously answered judas date fri apr i owe the group an apology it is my habit to check my articles before and after their submission for errors in my last article i stated by the way mr decenso you really should have looked in the index of your bauer arndt gingrich greek lexicon you would have found that the word in acts for lot is kleros not chorion as stated by mr archer and nowhere in the very large discussion of kleros in done the to theological dictionary of the new testament by bromley is the meaning burial plot discussed it discusses the forms of kleros eg kleros kleroo etc and the various meanings of kleros eg plot of land and inheritance but mentions nothing about chorion or burial plot why does this not surprise me thus it would seem to be a very good thing you dumped archer as a reference i was wrong i admit that i do not have a handle on greek grammar and thus confused kleros the second to last word in acts as being the plot of land discussed in actuality it is chorion which is the last word acts unfortunately my greek dictionary does not discuss chorion so i cannot report as to the nuances of the word i don t know if someone else would have caught this though i am sure that someone would be able to do so but i have an aversion to disseminating mistakes especially when someone else might use that mistake to prove a point my reply vary noble of you dave i didn t want to have to go to x number of sources to show you wrong although i am researching chorion a little db of course the only other reference mr decenso has given is bullinger and bullinger uses such ridiculous exegisis that when i accused mr decenso of actually believing bullinger he replied that i misquoted him and you maintain that you find such exegesis convincing oh dear my reply your misquotes of me are astounding dave read the beginning of this part of my response to see what i really said in my posting of this article actually mr decenso you said that there was benefit to our argument in that it caused to to rediscover bullinger s exegisis i did not realize that you would find such garbage beneficial unless you were convinced by it my reply thank you for correcting your restating of my points db and mr decenso also replied dave these are not necessarily my views they are bullinger s we will discuss the land issue in later posts i m sure i m only responding to this one you have directed re bullinger s views because it s enjoyable thus i apologize for thinking that even mr decenso could find such drek convincing he should specify which parts of bullinger he finds convincing and quit hiding behind a disingenuous mask of this is what bullinger believed not necessarily what i believe so which is it mr decenso do you find the exegisis convincing or not my reply one of my purposes in debating these alleged contradictions with you and others is to diseminate many different views of possible reconciliations raised by various bible scholars and students alike when i present my views i will clearly distinguish them from now on db of course without archer and bullinger we find that mr decenso has presented no greek exegisis at all and mr decenso has made a big thing about my not referring back to the actual greek thus we find this demand on his part for quality greek exegisis to be a hypocritical requirement my reply good point but in your declaring that these passages are contradictory you have produced only superficial reasonings and observations nor have you dug deeper i m glad you have begun in this post i will begin greek studies on these passages in more depth than i thought necessary as well db it would be appropriate to look at what mr decenso has actually used as evidence now we know what he claims for a standard as he has stated it often enough a the text itself b parallel passages c other pertinent scriptures d historical context e historical content f other pertinent historical info g cultural context h cultural content i other pertinent cultural info j grammatical construction k hebrew and greek word studies l etc but are these actual standards he has used or simply empty hyperbole let s see he has used a and since he is trying to reconcile it to other passages we see that he has also used b on the other hand he has presented no use of d historical context or e historical content or f other pertinent historical info or g cultural context or h cultural content or i other pertinent cultural info or j grammatical construction or even k hebrew and greek word studies remember archer and bullinger don t count thus we find his vaunted criteria for exegisis is just empty mouthings my reply question do you find such criteria important if so do you plan on starting to use them to the best of your ability or will you continue to present shallow observations i don t mean this in a bad way at this point in our debates i have not found it necessary to present a total exegetical analysis of these passages since we seem to keep beating around the bush and not getting into the core of the verses i do not believe it necessary to use many of the above criteria to refute your arguments re judas in acts and matthew but i will do my best from this point on to use several of the above criteria since you desire me to i hope you will also it will greatly enhance our study of these passages db the only thing he has actually used beyond the passage itself is any other passage thus mr decenso should be honest and note that most of his list is red herring and his only real criteria seems to be a the text itself b parallel passages my reply the reason is simple you are mistating the passages you claim that the passages contradict one another i do not see the passages contradicting one another they may very well be complimentary as many scholarly sources mention matthew may not be presenting judas death as you claim but we ll look at your defense of this later also the reward of iniquity in the acts passage may not be the pieces of silver in matthew s passages although you have a valiant attempt later at stating why you believe it is at this beginning stages in our debates we are laying some scriptural groundwork which will be expanded upon through deeper exegesis db of course the only reason i can see to so drastically reinterpret a passage as he has done with judas death is to make it agree with another passage so that both could be considered correct my reply one of the reasons i have given a different exegetical view of the passages is that you seem to think the majority of scholarship is wrong in concluding these passages are complimentary however i see no problem in tony rose s explanation of judas death how would you explain the inaccuracy between judas hanging himself in matthew and falling headlong he burst open this question of the manner in which judas died is one with which we are constantly confronted in our travels many people point to the apparent discrepancy in the two accounts as an obvious irreconcilable error some have gone so far as to say that the idea of an inerrant bible is destroyed by these contradictory accounts however this is not the case at all matthew relates that judas hanged himself while peter tells us he fell and was crushed by the impact the two statements are indeed different but do they necessarily contradict each other matthew does not say that judas did not fall neither does peter say that judas did not hang himself this is not a matter of one person calling something black and the other person calling it white both accounts can be true and supplementary a possible reconstruction would be this judas hanged himself on a tree on the edge of a precipice that overlooked the valley of hinnom after he hung there for some time the limb of the tree snapped or the rope gave way and judas fell down the ledge mangling his body in the process the fall could have been before or after death as either would fit this explanation this possibility is entirely natural when the terrain of the valley of hinnom is examined from the bottom of the valley you can see rocky terraces to feet in height and almost perpendicular there are still trees around the ledges and a rocky pavement at the bottom therefore it is easy to conclude that judas struck one of the jagged rocks on this way down tearing his body open it is important to remember that we are not told how long judas remained hanging from the tree or how advanced was the decomposition of his body before his fall louis gaussen relates a story of a man who was determined to kill himself this individual placed himself on the sill of a high window and pointed a pistol at his head he then pulled the trigger and leaped from the window at the same time on the other hand a person could say that this man took his life by shooting himself while another could rightly contend he committed suicide by jumping form the tall building in this case both are true as both are true in the case of matthew s and peter s accounts of the death of judas it is merely a situation of different perspectives of the same event your only reason for rejecting this is i believe your attempt to discredit inerrancy you haven t related how this is impossible or highly unlikely here s what you said in an earlier post db quoting tony rose there are still trees around the ledges and a rocky pavement at the bottom therefore it is easy to conclude that judas struck one of the jagged rocks on this way down tearing his body open it is important to remember that we are not told how long judas remained hanging from the tree or how advanced was the decomposition of his body before his fall the added text in this version is so heavy that assuming you are truly so opposed to such tactics you should find it not credible but you seem to find tony rose s eisegesis satisfactory while clearly rejecting david joslin s here you discredit tony s explanation based on what you deem too heavy for the passages but you haven t addressed why you feel that way you can say it s a vain attempt to reconcile the contradiction but that doesn t tell me it didn t happen nor have you shown why you reject that possibility questions is matthew lying or is luke lying or are they both lying or are either or both of them misinformed why do you think there is such an alleged contradiction i do not think you have ever told us what you believe in this respect db at present though mr decenso only asks two questions of me you claim acts and matthew contradict one another in representing judas death i ask you again to provide evidence that matthew stated judas died in the hanging you claim that the pieces of silver in matthew that judas threw down in the temple and the chief priests used is the reward of iniquity in acts that pictures judas in some way purchasing a field with therefore there is a contradiction prove that the pieces of silver and the reward of iniquity are one and the same actually i find question to be a rather stupid request but i will answer it because he now restricts himself to two points first i would point out that hanging is a very efficient manner for ending a life in fact it is a bit of a fluke when someone survives hanging except in fantasy cowboy movies and even then it usually referred to as an attempted hanging my reply i work at an agency that investigates child abuse and neglect today i got a call re a child that attempted suicide by hanging himself because his mother is on crack he failed in his attempt and is in a child s psych ward at a local hospital hanging attempts are not always successful to assume that because most hangings are successful this one was also is begging the question if i may quote you last night listening to the bible answer man broadcast the christian research institute s show one of the scholars on there used several of these terms that you use i am not all that familiar with them the man on the bam show teaches comparative religion and logic it was interesting db this is so prevalent that so that to say a man hung himself with no other qualifiers is synonymous with stating that he killed himself my reply qualifiers are important at times as we ll see in an ot passage i ll mention below does hanging always have this outcome did matthew who is the only source we have re judas hanging himself state that judas died as a result to say it s synonymous means it has the same meaning as a boy age hung himself but he lived this is only one of probably thousands of documented cases we can discover db now i am not alone in this thought in fact since mr decenso so respects christian scholarly including greek scholars opinion i did some research my reply thank you dave db interestingly not one of the christian references i read interpreted the hanging as being anything but a fatal suicide my reply above mine so it s ok to use christian sources to back your points what about tony s position do you value it or even consider it as a valid possibility also is it possible that the sources you read may be wrong or lying or deceived in other parts of their books if so should we do as we have done with archer toss them to the side and not value anything they say including their interpretation of the hanging of judas i am sure you would find some errors and maybe even some deception in those sources you also noted they interpreted the hanging as meaning he died although that is very possibly true do you find that in the text itself remember that s the first criteria we must examine db this included the biblical knowledge commentary by woodward and zuck my reply which i own it s a good source of commentary info but not inerrant db the interpreters on volume commentary on the bible by laydon the one volume bible commentary by j r dunelow word meanings of the testament ralph earl the abingdon bible commentary published by abingdon harpers bible commentary by william neal actually i could have presented many more as well my reply i appreciate your doing this research dave maybe we are getting somewhere in how we both should approach these alleged contradictions more in depth study db in each case these references specifically describe that the interpretation of matt as successful suicide and thus i can only conclude that the greek word apagchw ie hang oneself is translated as a successful hanging my reply above mine no you can t only conclude this although as tony says this was a highly probable outcome but matthew does not state death as being a result the greek word is apagcho matthew is it s only occurrence in the new testament in the septuagint the greek translation of the ot used at the time of jesus it s only used in samuel now when ahithophel saw that his advice was not followed he saddled a donkey and arose and went home to his house to his city then he put his household in order and hanged himself and died and he was buried in his father s tomb notice that not only is it stated that ahithophel hanged himself gr sept apagcho but it explicitly adds and died here we have no doubt of the result in matthew we are not explicitly told judas died also there is nothing in the greek to suggest success or failure it simply means hang oneself db but mr decenso you are more than welcome to disagree and show more reputable christian scholars that insist that the hanging was not successful my reply above mine reputable you mean ones that have never erred as far as insisting that the hanging was unsuccessful that can t be done even by me as i said in an earlier post although i still agree with tony s exegesis as being the most probable explanation regarding judas death taking into account several criteria i ve recently noticed some new things in matthew mat then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed and went and hanged himself but the chief priests took the silver pieces and said it is not lawful to put them into the treasury because they are the price of blood and they consulted together and bought with them the potter s field to bury strangers in therefore that field has been called the field of blood to this day first of all notice that the text does not say that judas died as a result of hanging all it says is that he went and hanged himself luke however in acts tells us that and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out this is a pretty clear indication along with the other details given in acts peter s speech the need to pick a new apostle etc that at least after judas fall he was dead so the whole concept that matthew and luke both recount judas death is highly probable but not clear cut i also wrote my reply here we have a stickler dave that i have to say i just recently noticed let s look at the passage in matthew mat saying i have sinned by betraying innocent blood and they said what is that to us you see to it mat then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed and went and hanged himself mat but the chief priests took the silver pieces and said it is not lawful to put them into the treasury because they are the price of blood mat and they consulted together and bought with them the potter s field to bury strangers in mat therefore that field has been called the field of blood to this day notice verse then he went and hanged himself matthew does not say judas died does it should we assume he died as a result of the hanging what does acts say act now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out act for it is written in the book of psalms let his dwelling place be desolate and let no one live in it and let another take his office here we may have a graphic explanation of judas death so my line of reasoning to dispel your contradiction myth re the two accounts of judas death is this matthew doesn t necessarily explain how judas died he does say judas hanged himself but he didn t specifically say judas died in the hanging incident however acts seems to show us his graphic demise therefore there is no contradiction between matthew and acts re judas death my reply we do know from matthew that he did hang himself and acts probably records his death although it s possible and plausible that he fell from the hanging and hit some rocks thereby bursting open i can no longer assume that to be the case therefore no contradiction matthew did not say judas died as a result of the hanging did he most scholars believe he probably did but i quoted all that to show that i highly regard the scholars explanations but in looking at the texts initially we can t assume judas died it is however highly probable db by the way while all agree that judas died from the hanging the books had different ways of dealing with the contradiction we are discussing one simply ignored it entirely and simply referred back to matthew s version as the correct version in both matt and acts the biblical knowledge commentary suggested the hypotheses that judas hung and then when he rotted his belly exploded which doesn t explain his headlong fall or that his branch or rope broke and he fell to his death and his gut gushed out which doesn t explain how a hanging man would fall headlong rather than feet first my reply the outcome of any fall is dependent upon many factors how high the person was suspended before the fall any obstructions such as tree branches that may have deviated the fall how steep an incline of rocky surfaces the victim fell upon thus possibly rolling or bouncing of several rocks etc in a superficial examination of the acts passage and the matthew passage we are not given a lot of info on the geographical specifics but tony in the above quoted post gave us some a possible reconstruction would be this judas hanged himself on a tree on the edge of a precipice that overlooked the valley of hinnom after he hung there for some time the limb of the tree snapped or the rope gave way and judas fell down the ledge mangling his body in the process the fall could have been before or after death as either would fit this explanation this possibility is entirely natural when the terrain of the valley of hinnom is examined from the bottom of the valley you can see rocky terraces to feet in height and almost perpendicular there are still trees around the ledges and a rocky pavement at the bottom therefore it is easy to conclude that judas struck one of the jagged rocks on this way down tearing his body open db now truthfully i do not see what is comforting about matthew confusing the source of the potter s field prophesy but on the other hand the author is correct matthew does make that confusion of course a biblical inerrantist who claim that every word of the bible is guaranteed true by god will have to thereby add one more contradiction to the death of judas ie where the prophesy of the potter s field came from my reply please when we are done with this study on his death remind me to discuss this with you db as to your second question mr decenso you ask how we could be sure that the money with which judas purchased the land was indeed for the betrayal rather than some other source i would point out that in acts where it specifically mention the reward of iniquity acts it also specifically mentions what act of iniquity they were talking about ie acts concerning judas who was guide to those who arrested jesus now i would point out that when the bible describes an act of iniquity and then immediately discusses the reward of iniquity it would be rather inane to suggest that it was an action of iniquity other than the one discussed my reply dave we are getting somewhere aren t we act and in those days peter stood up in the midst of the disciples altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty and said act men and brethren this scripture had to be fulfilled which the holy spirit spoke before by the mouth of david concerning judas who became a guide to those who arrested jesus act for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry act now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out act and it became known to all those dwelling in jerusalem so that field is called in their own language akel dama that is field of blood act for it is written in the book of psalms let his dwelling place be desolate and let no one live in it and let another take his office notice that in verse the word iniquity is not used rather it states that judas became a guide to those who arrested jesus but the writer did not stop there vs for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry what part did judas play in their ministry joh this he said not that he cared for the poor but because he was a thief and had the money box and he used to take what was put in it joh for some thought because judas had the money box that jesus had said to him buy those things we need for the feast or that he should give something to the poor so now we know what part judas played he was a treasurer per se right after peter stated that judas played a part in this ministry treasurer according to john then luke adds the parenthetical explanation of wages of iniquity money that should have been put into the ministry but was stolen by judas to purchase a field i believe this is a better exegetical explanation of what the wages of iniquity are what do you think dave db now since i have given you clear answers and even references perhaps you could unequivocally state what type of inerrantist you are instead of asking me what type i think you are as you did to mr joslin my reply i will gladly admit that i am a complete inerrantist although i do not have that big a problem with the limited inerrancy view frank if one wished to contend with him he could not answer him one time out of a thousand job
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10,955 | talk.religion.misc | re spreading christianity re christian extremist kills doctor in article c pua k u mailer cc fsu edu dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu darius lecointe writes david r sacco dsav andrew cmu edu writes not to be too snide about it but i think this christianity must be a very convenient religion very maliable and suitable for any occassion since it seems one can take it any way one wants to go with it and follow whichever bits one pleases and reinterpret the bits that don t match with one s desires it is in fact so convenient that were i capable of believing in a god i might consider going for some brand of christianity the only difficulty left then of course is picking which sect to join there are just so many dean kaflowitz yes christianity is convenient following the teachings of jesus christ and the ten commandments is convenient trying to love in a hateful world is convenient turning the other cheek is convenient so convenient that it is burdensome at times some christians take a discount off the ten commandments sunday cannot be substituted for the sabbath make that where did i see that poll recently about the very religious and adultery was it this newsgroup or alt atheism or some other place dean kaflowitz
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10,956 | talk.religion.misc | re new biblical contradictions fallaciously answered judas i produced an error last week about chorion by the way mr decenso you really should have looked in the index of your bauer arndt gingrich greek lexicon you would have found that the word in acts for lot is kleros not chorion as stated by mr archer and nowhere in the very large discussion of kleros in done the to theological dictionary of the new testament by bromley is the meaning burial plot discussed it discusses the forms of kleros eg kleros kleroo etc and the various meanings of kleros eg plot of land and inheritance but mentions nothing about chorion or burial plot why does this not surprise me thus it would seem to be a very good thing you dumped archer as a reference i was wrong i admit that i do not have a handle on greek grammar and thus confused kleros the second to last word in acts as being the plot of land discussed in actuality it is chorion which is the last word acts unfortunately my greek dictionary does not discuss chorion so i cannot report as to the nuances of the word i abhor publishing trash i abhor it of myself even more than i do from others but since i do not present myself as an authority on the subject i do not feel dishonest though i do openly admit ignorance and incompetence in this example thus i felt honor bound to do a better set of research specifically on the word first it should be noted that greek grammar is not as tough as i first assumed it is not nontrivial by any means and i still am not competent with it but it is not as opaque as i had thought it turns out that while the index for the bauer arndt gingrich greek lexicon renders each verse in order each word within a verse is put in greek alphabetical order thus while the the meaning of the verse is decipherable the syntax is far from clear on the other hand a greek english intralinear bible makes things a lot more comprehendable and yes the word for field in acts is indeed chorion now i ve checked several greek english lexicons greek english lexicon of the new testament louw and nida robinson s greek and english lexicon of the new testament greek english lexicon of the new testament grimm word study concordance tynsdale a greek english lexicon of the new testament and other early christian writings bauer arndt gingrich the new analytical greek lexicon perschbacher in each case the meaning of the word chorion was given variously as a space place region district field area country place land farm estate a bit of tillage and similar meanings nowhere do any of these books mention anything about grave as some of these books go into great detail i would be very surprised to find that these books are all inadequate and mr archer is the only competent scholar in greek i think it more likely that mr archer s investigations into contradictions to be once again as your friend said it lacking in substance and thus archer is again shown worthless as an expert witness by the way mr decenso i would have honorably presented my results on this matter even if i had found them to support mr archer s contentions by the way among these lexicons eg robinson s is the definition of agros the word used in matthew to describe the field bought the word agros is defined as a field in the country chorion is specifically noted as a synonym to agros this is significant as it is evidence of how silly bullinger s exegisis was which stated that the word for field in matthew ie agros is different from the word for field in acts ie chorion and thus we must be talking about two different fields of course you already admit how stupid bullinger s exegisis is but this was a small serendipity which drives the point home so as of now unless mr decenso show compelling reasons to believe otherwise eg a reputable scholar with reputable references i consider this particular issue closed see mr decenso now you can go on to answer questions about the denials of peter the day of the crucifixion tyre and the fact that the author of matthew quoted from the wrong prophet in discussing the potter s field later dave butler precise knowledge is the only true knowledge and he who does not teach exactly does not teach at all henry ward beecher american clergyman as recorded by george seldes
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10,957 | talk.religion.misc | re new biblical contradictions still not answered judas mr decenso in spite of requiring scholarly opinion on the hanging of judas rejects that the scholarly opinion of the those scholars and then rephrases those scholars opinion on the subject we do know from matthew that he did hang himself and acts probably records his death although it s possible and plausible that he fell from the hanging and hit some rocks thereby bursting open i can no longer assume that to be the case therefore no contradiction matthew did not say judas died as a result of the hanging did he most scholars believe he iprobably did but i quoted all that to show that i highly regard the scholars explanations but in looking at the texts initially we can t assume judas died it is however highly probable and also there is nothing in the greek to suggest success or failure it simply means hang oneself actually if you do further research as to the greek word apacgw you will find that it does denote success those scholars did indeed have an excellent reason to assume that the suicide was successful as i pointed out i recently checked several lexicons greek english lexicon of the new testament louw and nida robinson s greek and english lexicon of the new testament greek english lexicon of the new testament grimm word study concordance tynsdale a greek english lexicon of the new testament and other early christian writings bauer arndt gingrich the new analytical greek lexicon perschbacher a couple simply stated hanged oneself and a couple were more explicit and stated that apacgw means specifically kill yourself by hanging a couple also noted that the meaning of one the root words for apacgw is strangle throttle or choke which pretty much invalidates the guy who suggested to david joslin that judas was hung upside down one of the best references though robinson s greek and english lexicon of the new testament not only stated the translation it gave both the root words the literal translation related greek words which use the same roots and also other presented specific examples of the word in greek literature to give further context the word apagchw has two root words gchw is the to strangle root and the root word apo means literally away this root words is included in words which denote a transition it can mean a transition in place eg the greek word apagello means to send a message apo can also denote a change in state and specifically the change from life to death robinson specifically makes comparison to the word apokteiuo which means to kill in literal meaning the word apacgw means to throttle strangle to put out of the way and implicitly denotes a change in life state ie away from life to death so while the word apacgw does mean to hang it specifically denotes a death as well thus robinson is quite specific when he state that it means to hang oneself to end one s life by hanging he then notes the the use of apacgw in homers odessy to denote context he presents that example of apacgw as being used to explicitly mean suicide by hanging now since there is a perfectly good word for strangling without the added denotation of death and as you insist that the bible was written by god and every word is precicely correct you are stuck with the complete meaning of apacgw ie since the word apacgw was used then death is denoted as the result by the way i note that mr decenso also presents an example of apacgw in the septuagint the greek translation of the ot used at the time of jesus it s only used in samuel now when ahithophel saw that his advice was not followed he saddled a donkey and arose and went home to his house to his city then he put his household in order and hanged himself and died and he was buried in his father s tomb notice that not only is it stated that ahithophel hanged himself gr sept apagcho but it explicitly adds and died here we have no doubt of the result in matthew we are not explicitly told judas died note mr decenso as you say the septuagint was a translation from hebrew to greek and you have not shown the original meaning of the hebrew ie the the hebrew say and died and thus whether it was simply echoed in the greek it should also be pointed out that regardless of the added and died the correct translation would still be apacgw as the man did indeed die from strangulation redundant but correct further we have evidence that the septuagint was repeatedly rewritten and reedited which included versions which contradicted each other and such editing was not even necessarily executed by greeks thus i am not sure that you can use the septuagint as it now stands as a paragon of ancient greek so what you really need to prove your point mr decenso is an example in ancient greek of someone committing apacgw and surviving otherwise i would see you as simply making worthless assertions without corresponding evidence now i would note mr decenso that everytime i go out of my way to research it one of your apparently contrived exegisis i pretty much find it false thus i think that if you are going to add to the text something over and above what the source clearly says then you had better have an explicit greek or historical source to justify it by the way as to mr rose s statement about trees around the potter s field there are still trees around the ledges and a rocky pavement at the bottom unless mr rose can show that these trees are two thousand years old or that there are year old stumps there or has a thousand year old description of the area which mentions such trees then it is inappropriate for him to assert that the present placement of trees prove the location of the trees two thousand years ago after all things change now as to your other argument ie that the money judas used is not the same as the silvers as to your second question mr decenso you ask how we could be sure that the money with which judas purchased the land was indeed for the betrayal rather than some other source i would point out that in acts where it specifically mention the reward of iniquity acts it also specifically mentions what act of iniquity they were talking about ie acts concerning judas who was guide to those who arrested jesus now i would point out that when the bible describes an act of iniquity and then immediately discusses the reward of iniquity it would be rather inane to suggest that it was an action of iniquity other than the one discussed notice that in verse the word iniquity is not used rather it states that judas became a guide to those who arrested jesus but the writer did not stop there vs for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry what part did judas play in their ministry true peter or the author of acts does not specifically call judas betrayal an iniquity but for that matter neither does john specifically call judas actions an iniquity either further john did not say that judas took the money box but rather said some thought that because judas had the money box jesus was telling him buy what we need for the feast or that he should give something to the poor so after receiving the morsel he immediately went out and it was night note that it is said that judas left it does not say that he took the money box thus when i see your explanation it still seems to me you would choose the a an unproven iniquity mentioned by another author in a different book written at a different time over the iniquity explicitly mentioned by the author of acts i find this forced and contrived of course this particular argument becomes moot since we have have seen evidence that apacgw means suicide you see since judas hanging was successful he could not have spent the money mentioned in john because matthew and mark explicitly say the betrayal was on the high holy day ie passover and thus he could not have spent the money before killing himself the next day thus the money which bought the field of blood would have to have been the pieces of silver of course he got the pieces of silver that night as well and thus couldn t have spent that either oh dear i believe that the house of cards is comming down maybe we should at this point discuss now whether jesus was crucified on friday or saturday as that is now part of the argument about judas by the way as to where the prophesy of the potter s field came from ie the mention of it in matthew you say please when we are done with this study on his death remind me to discuss this with you i am reminding you now to discuss it now it s all part of the same verse we are discussing and i wish you would quit procrastinating and sidestepping these issues later dave butler a wise man proportions his belief to the evidence david hume philosopher an inquiry concerning human understanding ps i would note again that you are not stating that that bible is not possibly inerrant you are stating that it is inerrant since you have been by your own admission presenting merely possible reconciliations i of course don t rate them that highly then the best you can do is say that the bible is possibly inerrant not that it is inerrant
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10,958 | talk.religion.misc | re imaginary friends info and experiences in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu kditto nyx cs du edu kimborly ditto writes concerniong this thread has anyone ever seen drop dead fred this movie seems to tipify the imaginary friend theme rather well i loved the movie as i had an imaginary friend when i was a kid and it borught back great memories seriously if you have a chance see drop dead fred it ll make ya think especially the end blessings kim patrick brosnan patb bnr co uk mcsun ukc stc patb northern telecomm oakleigh rd south london n hb phone or x oh flash i love you but we ve only got hours to save the universe
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10,959 | talk.religion.misc | god s promise of peace psa the lord is good to all and his tender mercies are over all his works jer and i will dash them one against another even the fa thers and the sons together saith the lord i will not pity nor spare nor have mercy but destroy them
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10,960 | talk.religion.misc | god s promise to the righteous ps the righteous shall flourish like the palm tree isa the righteous perisheth and no man layeth it to heart
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10,961 | talk.religion.misc | re christian extremist kills doctor regard hpsdde sdd hp com adrienne regard writes in article mar pony ingres com dan ingres com a rose arose writes seriously though griffen didn t save the lives of children and he did destroy the life of a man so on the most superficial of levels he s scum i almost agree but griffen is not scum scum has no guilt or freedom to choose anything griffen does god did not make scum when he made griffen he made a precious person and this person chose to do wrong the same goes for dr gunn but if you are to examine it more closely griffen would have preferred that these children were born yet after their birth did griffen have any assistance to offer them did griffen intend to support them educate them raise them up to be useful citizens did he have any intent whatsoever to help these children after birth here s the real problem americans have become so insensitive to the needs of others and so completely wrapped up in themselves that they cannot see straight or think clearly enough to make even the slightest and most obvious moral decisions based on reality if a man abandons a woman to care for their child on her own he is not considered to be a very respectable or decent man by anyone this man has fled his responsibility has behaved like a lazy coward and has turned away from his responsibility to his wife and child however if a woman decides to kill her unborn child to release her burden she is not thought of in the same way when the man abandons the woman suffers but the child is free to grow up and live a happy and normal life when the woman abandons the child is diced or killed with saline or vacuumed out and the man has no choice and the man sometimes suffers so badly that he wishes he could trade places with his child ths root of this whole problem is selfishness the arrogance that says my feelings and desires are supreme and your well being is not worth dung and when you come down to it this is the substance of what hell is made of it s the reason a loving god can throw selfish people to the devil and his demons for all of eternity let any one of us unrepentant into heaven and we ll ruin it the first chance we get now i don t really know the answer to these questions but i ve got a real good guess and it s probably right and i wouldn t call that benevolent either it is a move in the right direction as it is now we don t see our responsibility because we kill it and get it out of sight the media backs us completely real responsibility does not sell the only responsibility that sells in the marketplace is that which is just enough to make us feel responsible without showing anything that might show us our own true irresponsibility we want to feel like good people but we want nothing with being good people just give me the freedom to say i m good and the rest of the world can burn rape and kill my children and throw my parents to the places where poor old folks rot until they re dead i ll hate my brother and sister if i wish and i ll cheat on my wife or husband screw the government because it screws me and don t talk to me about giving to the church because church people are all a bunch of money grubbing hypocrites but i m a good person at least i admit what i do at least i love myself and we all know that is the greatest love in the world not that a man lay down his life for his brother that sounds too christian at the root this is the substance of what hell is made of we ve become a self indulgant backslidden society no longer responsible to our children to our parents to our families to our government or to our god this is the root behind justification of every evil of every corruption in government of every slanderous remark of every lie and of every murder society cannot continue to live like this long it will have to destroy itsself soon and perhaps in the end that will be the biggest blessing this world can hope to see why do people see so much evil in trying to turn this situation around i deplore the horrible crime of child murder we want prevention not merely punishment we must reach the root of the evil it is practiced by those whose inmost souls revolt from the dreadful deed no mater what the motive love of ease or a desire to save from suffering the unborn innocent the woman is awfully guilty who commits the deed but oh thrice guilty is he who drove her to the desperation which impelled her to the crime susan b anthony the revolution july
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10,962 | talk.religion.misc | scarlet horse of babylon was daemons in article qilgninnrko lynx unm edu blowfish leo unm edu ron writes its easy is the neighbor of the beast at the beast lives at the end of a cul de sac r i noticed this dead horse in your keywords line is this the famous scarlet horse of babylon that the beast that s for you illuminatti rides on in those wonderful mediaeval manuscripts if so i fear your announcement that the old girl is dead may be premature i bet on her to place in the th race at the downs last sunday and she slid in a bad fifth so she is not dead she is just comatose like god that way i suppose ninja gourmet will fight for food jim peavler my opinions do not exist peavler plk af mil that is why they are called albuquerque nm my opinions
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10,963 | talk.religion.misc | re language and agreement m mwunix mitre org james meritt writes mr meritt please state explicitly the inductive argument which leads you to conclude mr tice thinks it ok to take biblical quotes out of context in some other t r m articles also please explain why you rely on inductive reasoning with its implicit uncertainty in determining mr tice s opinions when the man is himself clearly available for questioning finally please indicate whether you agree yes or no with the following statement the word agree and the phrase not disagree are identical in meaning
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10,964 | talk.religion.misc | re after years can we say that christian morality is oxymoronic andrew a houghton writes i m still waiting to hear a good response from a christian type how is christ s word as quoted by paul reconciled with current christian beliefs almost one third of the world s population claim to be christian but any similarity between their beliefs and lifestyle to the first century model is purely coincidental at luke it states nevertheless when the son of man returns will he really find the faith on the earth jack
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10,965 | talk.religion.misc | objective values v scientific accuracy was re after years can we say that christian morality is frank i tried to mail this but it bounced it is fast moving out of t a scope but i didn t know if t a was the only group of the three that you subscribed to apologies to regular t a folks in article qjahh mrs horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes science the real world has its basis in values not the other way round as you would wish it you must be using values to mean something different from the way i see it used normally and you are certainly using science like that if you equate it to the real world science is the recognition of patterns in our perceptions of the universe and the making of qualitative and quantitative predictions concerning those perceptions it has nothing to do with values as far as i can see values are well they are what i value they are what i would have rather than not have what i would experience rather than not and so on objective values are a set of values which the proposer believes are applicable to everyone if there is no such thing as objective value then science can not objectively be said to be more useful than a kick in the head i don t agree science is useful insofar as it the predictions mentioned above are accurate that is insofar as what i think will be the effect on my perceptions of a time lapse with or without my input to the universe versus what my perceptions actually turn out to be but values are about whether i like in the loosest sense of the word the perceptions simple theories with accurate predictions could not objectively be said to be more useful than a set of tarot cards i don t see why usefulness in science is synonomous with accuracy period tarot predictions are not useful because they are not accurate or can t be shown to be accurate science is useful because it is apparently accurate values objective or otherwise are beside the point no tommy
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10,966 | talk.religion.misc | re food for thought on tyre king ctron com john e king writes not exactly the prophesy clearly implies that people would still be living in the area but by the same token it would never be rebuilt obviously if people are still there they would live in houses correct their nets implies a fishing village this is exactly what it has become a far cry from its original position of stature looking at we find that during roman times tyre vied with sidon for first place in the intellectual life of the period that tyre was the seat of a christian bishop eventually with dioceses under it that the most magnificent church of its kind in all phoenecia was the basilica built in tyre ca that tyre was well known for its exports of glassware wine white marble and dyed cloth that tyre along with other seaports provided outlets for south arabian indian and even chinese trade that tyre had to accomodate its growing population by following a perpendicular rather than horizontal line of growth because it was running out of land to build on that tyre established colonies of its own none of this sounds like a small fishing village by any stretch of the imagination centuries later under the abbasids tyre had opulent and flourishing bazaars and buildings of stories during this period tyre was noted for its export of sugar beads and as of old glassware during the crusades tyre was the second most flourishing city held by franks there is a lot more but i got tired of writing in we read the following description of modern lebanon other major cities in lebanon include tripoli sidon tyre baalbek and zahlah my emphasis this source also discusses the impact of the lebanese civil war and the israeli military actions on the trading ports of tyre and sidon it notes that after israel s withdrawel in tyre appeared to enjoy a revival of its local economy if tyre is such an insignificant little fishing village at present why is it always called a city or above a major city why does it show up on all the maps when population figures for cities in lebanon are given why is tyre always one of the cities on the list even if the list is only a dozen cities long philip k hitti lebanon in history from the earliest times to the present ny st martins federal research division library of congress lebanon a country study edited by thomas collelo in the early s tyre had over people so far i ve seen stated figurers ranging from to let s assume the latter one is correct by modern standards we are talking about a one horse town a one horse town sounds like a lot of work for one horse anyway tyre is connected by roads to the mainland they may even use cars these days the encyclopedia britannica says pop est most other references give figures in the thousand range one atlas gives the population of tyre as the same source give comparatively high figures for sidon and beirut also so i doubt that it is a typo perhaps these were figures for the cities and their surrounding areas i don t doubt that the population of tyre has fluctuated over the last few decades in particular the israeli military action hurt tyre quite a bit after alex the g it fell once more in the s i believe what other times did it fall that you were thinking of to egypt bce to the seleucids bce rome bce after rome it fell to various arab contingents until ce when it was captured in the crusades it was then recaptured again by the muslims in ce and subsequently pillaged then the french turks british and today lebanon i thought you were talking about times that tyre was destroyed don t most if not all of these apply not just to tyre but to the other cities in the area sidon for example can you make a case for tyre having been singled out well it recovered enough to have a thriving commerce in the dye tyrian purple in roman times this is correct but they were under roman domination and the majority of the created wealth was siphoned off the prophesy hold true they had a good deal of autonomy under the seleucids from tyre receiv ed the rights of autonomy from antiochus ephiphanes and from bc onward enjoy ed complete autonomy she started a large series of coins occasionally in gold the descriptions of tyre under the romans don t seem to fit your characterization either and under the abbasids it seems to have been allowed to flourish i still think you are stretching when you try to describe tyre as having been nothing but a small fishing village who is josh mcdowell a christian apologist whose standards of scholarship are quite low he happens to quote the same source you quote nina jidejian tyre through the ages beirut dar el mashreq publishers the same sentence in fact he defends the fulfillment of the prophecy using the same argument you are using an argument that i haven t seen in print anywhere else which is why i jumped to the conclusion that you were quoting josh i tried to find the jidejian book but it isn t listed in books in print can you tell me more about it her descriptions are so much at odds with everything else i ve read i m curious to know why dj
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10,967 | talk.religion.misc | ex gay was homosexuality fact fiction tony while i honestly believe you believe you are doing a good thing by posting that piece of propaganda i believe the more people believe that the more they will feel justified in their blatant persecution of gay oriented people i have seen the film called the gay agenda and along with my church we found it to be horrifying not because of what was actually shown cleaver use of editting can create any image one wants to portray rather becaseu we are familia familiar with how widely it was actively distributed and how many naive people are actually believing the garbage found within it the truth is that neither you nor i can fully speak for anyone who calls themself gay but knowing as many as i do and knowing their testimonies and witnessing thier faith and life i have to say that the report you posted is a very biased report something obviously claimed against gays as well the truth is that unless you are innately gay you cannot know what harm you are causing i speak as an abolitionist who supports affirming gay rights in our society i do not support wild sex or any other misrepresentations perpetrated by christian fundamentalist extremists but i know people who are not the sexual deviants your report paints them to be it is no mistake that the apa removed homosexuality from it s list of mental illnesses it is also no mistake that there are many christians and homophobes who long to bring it back to the list i do not feel threatened by gays i don t understand why others are the following is an article concerning two of the more popular ex gay min istries exodus international homosexuals anonymous the founder of an ex gay support group chooses homo over hetero by robert pela from gay oriented magazine advocate in december david caligiuri received one of the advocate s homophobia rewaa awards the a prayer a day keeps the lust away citation as director of free indeed a national ex gay ministry caligiuri was singled out for offering discontented gays and lesbians a way out of the homosexual death style through prayer i d like to give the award back caligiuri now laughs i m no longer deserve it caligiuri s eight year involvement with the national ex gay movement peaked with his founding of the phoenix chapter of homosexuals anonymous ha as well as free indeed he has since abandoned his pulpit and now says that the ex gay movement is a fruitless effort based on deception there s no reality in it he says i was selling a product and my product was a lie headed up by national ministries like exodus international and courage the organizations of the ex gay movement rely on the tenents of born again christianity to convince disatisfied homosexuals usually young gay men who are just coming out that they can shed their sexuality by suppressing their sexual urges and embracing christianity we offer support to people who are seeking to leave the sin of homosexuality explains bob davies director of exodus he ventures that about of those seeking to abandon their homo sexuality are men anybody who is involved in the ex gay ministry is misguided and is wasting their time says lisa seeley a former redeemed lesbian who worked with caligiuri as ha and appeared with him on the sally jessy raphael show these organizations are for people who are spiritually and emotionally wounded it s possible to change your identity or your behavior says sex educator brian mcnaught author of on being gay but it s really impossible to change your orientation these people are no longer calling themselves gay but they continue to have same sex erotic feelings caligiuri says he founded free indeed after an ominous week in when all hell broke loose in his personal life a few days after his lover ended both their romance and their business partnership caligiuri was sexually assaulted by a man he picked up in a bar i was really drunk he recalls and i went home with this guy he tied me up and raped me he left me tied up all night and the next morning he raped me again when caligiuri was eventually freed by the attacker he returned home to the home he shared with his ex lover he had another man there with him caligiuri recalls i thought at this time if this is what being gay is about i don t want to be this way anymore caligiuri vowed that if he could find a way out he would share his discovery with others he organized an antigay contingent to demonstrate at phoenix s gay pride parade in june and a few months later free indeed held its first public protest at a meeting to promote a gay civil rights ordinance free indeed members loudly blasted gays telling them ther were sinners headed for hell free indeed began receiving about a hundred telephone calls a week thanks in part to a deceptive listing in the local yellow pages we were listed under lesbian and gay alternative services caligiuri says so people thought we were a gay information switchboard people would call to find out where the local bars were and we d preach to them about the sins of homo sexuality ruses like this are typical of the movement caligiuri says adding they ll do anything to reach these people david used to go on radio and say really stupid things recalls peter kelly a counselor at phoenix s catholic diocese aids program like that he knew he was gay when he started wearing pastel colors caligiuri s family first found out about his ministry when they saw him on raphael s syndicated talk show in they were relieved he recalls they figured that if they had to have a gay person in the family better that i should be a reformed gay person but caligiuri was hardly reformed by the time i appeared on sally s show i d started having sex with men again men would call our hotline and tell me about thier latest sin sex with their pastor sex with their father i was horny all the time unable to risk going to gay bars where he might be recognized from his numerous television appearances caligiuri says he used to go to bookstores and get blowjobs when he wasn t working the bookstores he was sleeping with other reformed homosexuals i didn t realize it at first but a lot of the ha leaders were having sex with one another caligiuri says we d go to conferences in other cities and we d be paired up in hotel rooms everybody was sleeping with everybody else by the time he appeared on am philadelphia television show in may caligiuri was having anonymous sex a couple times a week when the show s host asked him if he ever acted on temptation his answer was a lie caligiuri s duplicity began to take it s toll on him however he was suffering from chrinic fatigue syndrome and candidiasis a dibilitating yeast infection and this led to his escape from the sect i was too sick to go to church he explains the more time i spent away from those people the more i began to feel like myself i began to remember who i used to be late in caligiuri turned free indeed phone lines over to a local church and closed the ministry s doors i d convinced myself that there is no need in the world for ex gay people he says today caligiuri is studying alternative spiritualities i m interest ed in belief systems that aren t judgemental considering romance but not with a christian and searching for a new project to devote himself to i feel compelled to commit myself to gay causes he says i want to eventually stop feeling guilty about what i did and make up for the damage i may have brought to our community end article caligiuri s tory is by no means unique and i have read several other articles of former leaders and founders of ex gay ministries who have said very similar th similar things fortuantely not all of them have left christianity but have come to realize that god loves them despite the attitudes of others some like chris glaser director of the presbyterian lazarus project of west hollywood presbyterian church have actually been working with the gay community to bring them into the sheepfold of christ and encouraging real ethical values of sexuality within the sphere of being gay i have also as i said talked and become and become close friends with many who once attended such groups as love in action and others who either once claimed to have been reformed or who were too honest with themselves to live a lie no matter who was disappointed in them some were even encouraged to marry as a way of sealing their new heterosexuality only to eventually start hitting the bars bathhouses and bookstores since these were usually activities under the concealment of night and one night stands of promiscuous behavior meant no continuous sin through a committed relationship this is a horrible trap which the church has dumped on the backs of the truly gay oriented people and the very inno cent victims in these cases are the wives and children of such marriages yet the church insists that there are only two options they are willing to allow gay people heterosexuality or celebacy this is sad what is also mrtifying is in the cases of those who cannot suppress their desires and fear for thier sanity in such a mixed up confusion that the church forces on them they may even opt for suicide or surgical dampering of the brain functions in the past lobotomies and heavey drug suppressants were common place there are now becoming available more and more literature on the threat of coercive christianity toward gays such as sylvia pennington s ex gays there are none and others there are also a great many fact based books being written to help people trapped in this confusion such as maury johnston s gays under grace and chris glaser s come hom i seriously recommend those for people seeking help for this persecution and self acceptance thank you
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10,968 | talk.religion.misc | re food for thought on tyre in article qh m inn pu ctron news ctron com king ctron com john e king wrote not exactly the prophesy clearly implies that people would still be living in the area but by the same token it would never be rebuilt obviously if people are still there they would live in houses correct their nets implies a fishing village this is exactly what it has become a far cry from its original position of stature let s see if alexander destroyed tyre and people move back and they construct houses and after a while people live there and still call it tyre it is not considered to be rebuilt instead it s considered to be just some people that got together for fishing and they needed houses place so far i ve seen stated figurers ranging from to let s assume the latter one is correct by modern standards we are talking about a one horse town sigh i was never born in a city then my home town has people i have to consult my city and inform them that it s from now a fishing village when this city kristinestad was founded in the th century about people lived there so the norms were even more bizarre for dumb swedish queens who founded cities along the coast of finland i would like to know why paul thought is was worth mentioning the small fishing place of tyre in acts again maybe he was a keen fisherman and wanted to visit the shores of tyre cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
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10,969 | talk.religion.misc | re apr god s promise in john brian lpl arizona edu brian ceccarelli writes brian kendig contorts it can not be a light which cleanses if it is tainted with the blood of an innocent man now showing how brian kendig is in the dark of the most fundamental basic of the old testament concepts like santification and lev must be foreign to you too bad you are not interested in understanding too bad you prefer blurting folly even to your own shame lev for the life of the flesh is in the blood and i have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul the old testament was very big on the eye for an eye business it makes sense that leviticus would support physical injury to repay moral wrongdoing i know about sanctification i ve been taught all about it in sunday school catechism class and theology classes but even after all that i still can t accept it maybe i m still not understanding it or maybe i m just understanding it all too well from the bottom of my heart i know that the punishment of an innocent man is wrong i ve tried repeatedly over the course of several years to accept it but i just can t if this means that i can t accept the premise that a god who would allow this is perfectly good then so be it what ignorance you can show us next i guess i ll wait till tomorrow if you can explain to me why the death of jesus was a good thing then i would be very glad to hear it and you might even convert me be warned however that i ve heard all the most common arguments before and they just don t convince me brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j ai vus j ose croire n etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent the meaning of life si je ne vaux pas mieux au moins je suis autre is that it ends rousseau
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10,970 | talk.religion.misc | re after years can we say that christian morality is frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes plus questions for you why do subjectivists relativists nihilists get so het up about the idea that relativism is better than objectivism to the degree that relativism is a more accurate decription of the truth than is objectivism it provides more power and ability to control events assuming for the moment that morals are relative then two relativists can recognize that neither has a lock on the absolute truth and they can proceed to negotiate a workable compromise that produces the desired results assuming that there is an absolute morality two disagreeing objectivists can either be both wrong or just one of them right there is no room for compromise once you beleive in absolute morals you must accept that you are amoral or that everyone who disagrees with you is amoral given a choice between a peaceful compromise or endless contention i d say that compromise seems to be better ray fischer convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth ray netcom com than lies friedrich nietzsche
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10,971 | talk.religion.misc | ex gays follow up i would like to apologize for the typos in the previous post in retrospect i would also like to quote another source douglas c haldeman from his book homosexuality therapy ineffective recently the founders of yet another prominent ex gay ministry exodus international denounced their conversion therapy procedures as ineffective michael busse and gary cooper cofounders of exodus international and lovers for years were involved with the organization from to the program was described by these men as ineffective not one person was healed they stated that the program often exacerbated already prominent feelings of guilt and personal failure among the counselees many were driven to suicidal thoughts as a result of the failed reparative therapy the previous article quoted in the last posting is from the advocate june called the ex ex gay by robert pela some personal thoughts it is of no great astonishment that there is a concerted effort by a major portion of the church to control and mandate change of a minority among its ranks this was the momentum behind the spanish inquisition only all they required was a confession of faith after much torture and then to save their souls they would dispatch them to heaven through death even later the bible was used vigorously to defend slavery oppression and segragation of african americans even to the justification of lynchings today s scholars are just a bit more slick in their approach the tool is still coersion but now it is mostly by means of brainwashing and mind control convincing people that they should see themselves as less than god sees them then maintaining a cultic hold on them until it is felt thier mind conditioning is complete sure no one is physically forced to stay in this reparative therapy but sheer social pressure is enough for many to keep themselves in this new found bondage of self hate as an abolitionist i advocate the abolishment of oppression and persecution against gays in all facets of civil life a person should be judged by the contibution or non contribution to the society in which they live not by some high brow standard of conformity imposed by those who haven t a clue what is in their heart for those who seek more information about gays and groups that accept them please contact your nearest chapter of pflag parents friends of lesbians and gays who will be more than happy to assist you this is a group of people comprised of gays lesbians and bisexuals their parents and friends who have formed a support group for help and understanding try talking to a parent of a gay son or daughter and learn some first hand real life and loving understanding god s love and understanding for gay people is no less abundant thank you pax
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10,972 | talk.religion.misc | apr god s promise in john but as many as received him to them gave he power to become the sons of god even to them that believe on his name john
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10,973 | talk.religion.misc | re food for thought on tyre i was curious to check out how many san jose mercury news mentioned tyre here s the outcome from the research condenced versions copyright san jose mercury news bombings in the two largest cities in southern lebanon killed people and wounded others a car bomb blew up in tyre killing people and wounding a man was killed and five others seriously wounded in an explosion in nabatiye an israeli navy patrol boat attacked and sank a rubber guerrilla boat off southern lebanon early today killing the two men aboard the army command said it said in a communique that a dvora patrol boat opened fire on the motorized rubber dinghy north of tyre after identifying it as hostile the army said no one on the israeli boat was injured the affiliation of the slain guerrillas was not immediately known rival factions of the guerrilla group led by terrorist mastermind abu nidal battled sunday in tyre lebanon with machine guns and rocket propelled grenades killing at least four people and wounding police said lebanon s mainstream shiite muslim militia said thursday that it had uncovered a network of tunnels in a southern lebanese village where it said pro iranian kidnappers had held western hostages officials of the militia amal led local journalists through the catacomb like alleys and showed them two cells with iron doors at the village kawthariyet al siyad near tyre the ancient port city about miles south of beirut the officials said they were certain that u s marine lt col william r higgins was detained there shortly after he was seized by gunmen on a road outside tyre in february anyway i counted articles during these years of reporting i also found out the possible reason why the numbers for the inhabitants of the city is defined between and it seems that tyre is one of the places where people from libanon flee to during more extensive bombings so there s a constant flow of refugees entering and leaving tyre articles mentioned thousands of people entering and leaving this place i counted articles for my home town kristinestad so from now i will consider this place to be a fishing village cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
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10,974 | talk.religion.misc | a treatise on the miracles of muhammad saw part droplet vol no part a d r o p l e t from the vast ocean of the miraculous qur an translations from the arabic and turkish writings of bediuzzaman said nursi the risale i noor vol no part nineteenth letter mu jizat i ahmediye risalesi a treatise on the miracles of muhammad saw saw peace and blessings be upon him in his name allah be he allah glorified there is nothing but glorifies his allah s praise in the name of allah the compassionate the merciful he is who has sent his messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to make it supreme over all religion and sufficient is allah as a witness muhammad is the messenger of allah and those who are with him are firm against the unbelievers and merciful among each other you will see them bowing and prostrating themselves seeking allah s grace and his pleasure their mark is on their face the sing of prostrafion this is their similitude in the torah and indgil the our an since the nineteenth and thirhy first words concerning the mission of muhammad saw prove his prophethood with decisive evidences we assign the verification of that subject to those words as a supplement to them we will merely show here in nineteen signs some of the flashes of that great truth first sign the owner and master of this universe does everything with knowledge disposes every affair with wisdom directs everything all seeingly treats everything all knowingly and arranges in everything with his will and wisdom such causes purposes and uses that are apparent to us since the one who creates knows surely the one who knows will speak since he will speak surely he will speak to those who have consciousness thought and speech since he will speak to those who have thought surely he will speak to humankind whose make up and awareness are more comprehensive of all conscious beings since he will speak to humankind surely he will speak to the most perfect of mankind and those most worthy of address and highest in morality and who are qualified to guide humanity then he will certainly speak to muhammad saw who as friend and foe alike testify is of the highest character and morality and who is obeyed by one fifth of humanity to whose spiritual rule half of the globe has submitted with the radiance of whose light has been illumined the future of mankind for thirteen centuries to whom the believers the luminous segment of humanity renew their oath of allegiance five times a day for whose happiness and peace they pray for whom they call down allah s blessings and bear admiration and love in their hearts certainly he will speak to muhammad saw and indeed he has done so he will make him the messenger and indeed he has done so he will make him the guide for the rest of humanity and indeed he has done so to be continued in a allah your br irfan in islam
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10,975 | talk.religion.misc | re question for those with popular morality in article fo murdoch acc virginia edu pmy vivaldi acc virginia edu pete yadlowsky writes moral driver distinctions deleted in this case the driver does not evolve but simply is there would probably not be any manifestation in an infant because the moral code has not been learnt yet ie the object upon which the driver acts upon without manifestation though how can the driver be detected for all purposes it seems not to exist until moral coding begins actually i agree with your notion of a driver except that i think it s not moral but pre and super moral it is as i mentioned earlier in this thread a primal sense of connection a pre and post natal umbilical the awareness of which is expressed in a partial fragmented way that accomodates and forms in return the language and customs of a given culture this halting pidgin english expression is i think what we come to call morality compare the driver to an urge such as jealousy where there is an urge and an object the jealousy does not technically exist until the object is apparent however the capacity to be jealous is presumably still there even though it is not detectable your description of the unbilical took me three passes to understand but i get the gist and i have to tentatively agree i think our two definitions can sit side by side without too much trouble though i haven t attempted to define the reason behind the moral driver only hinted through the essence of each moral your definition hints that animals are also capable of a similar morality simians have a similar social order to ourselves and it is easy to anthropomorphize with these animals is this possible or have i misunderstood if my suggestion holds true then this is the area where work must be carried out to prevent a moral deterioration of society what kind of work exactly well here you have asked the big question i have a slight suspicion that you were hoping i would say something really contentious in this reply from your final question no not at all i was just wondering if you subscribed to some particular school of psycho social thought and rehabilitation and if perhaps you had a plan i d have been interested to hear it my p s thoughts falls roughly in line with john stuart mill and his writings on utilitarianism i have no particular plan except to do my bit personal ethics and social work my opinion for what it is worth is that the authority for each moral must be increased somehow and that this will probably take several generations to be effective i don t think that the list of morals has changed for society significantly though the authority element may come from our authority figures and roles models see eric berne and his transactional analysis work mavis klein for references and this is what gives rise to a deterioration of moral standards in the long term i ve had some more thoughts on my definitions i ve was thinking that i should add moral character to the list of definitions in order to get a dynamic version of the moral nature ie the interplay of the moral code and associated authorities a suitable analogy might be a graphic equaliser on a hifi system the moral nature being the set of frequencies and the chosen amplitudes and the moral character being the spectrum over time conscience is a little more difficult because i can t define it as the reasoning of a person between actions in the context of his moral nature because conscience seems to cut in most of the time unbidden and often unwanted i think conscience is manifest when a decision is made at a given time which compromises one s moral nature my conscience fits in more with freud s superego plus the moral driver with the stimulous being the urges or freud s id the reasoning that i mentioned before is freud s ego i suppose if the moral driver is part of the id then the reason why conscience cuts in unbidden is partially explained the question is what provides the stimulous to activate the moral driver i think i need some more time with this one that s about it for now david on religion oh where is the sea the fishes cried as they swam its clearness through
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10,976 | talk.religion.misc | re after years can we say that christian morality is after tons of mail could we move this discussion to alt religion there are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke bob dylan if you were happy every day of your life you wouldn t be a human being you d be a game show host taken from the movie heathers lecture lek chur process by which the notes of the professor become the notes of the student without passing through the minds of either
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10,977 | talk.religion.misc | bhagavad gita text bhogaisvarya prasaktanam tayapahrta cetasam vyavasayatmika buddhih samadhau na vidhiyate bhoga to material enjoyment aisvarya and opulence prasaktanam for those who are attached taya by such things apahrta cetasam bewildered in mind vyavasaya atmika fixed in determination buddhih devotional service to the lord samadhau in the controlled mind na never vidhiyate does take place translation in the minds of those who are too attached to sense enjoyment and material opulence and who are bewildered by such things the resolute determination for devotional service to the supreme lord does not take place purport samadhi means fixed mind the vedic dictionary the nirukti says samyag adhiyate sminn atma tattva yathatmyam when the mind is fixed for understanding the self it is said to be in samadhi samadhi is never possible for persons interested in material sense enjoyment nor for those who are bewildered by such temporary things they are more or less condemned by the process of material energy bhagavad gita as it is books of a c bhaktivedanta swami don t forget to chant hare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna hare hare hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare kalki s infoline bbs aiken south carolina usa system kalki lakes trenton sc us
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10,978 | talk.religion.misc | re question for those with popular morality in article freenet carleton ca ad freenet carleton ca james owens writes in a previous article david terminus ericsson se david bold says i don t mean to be rude but i think that you ve got hold of the wrong end of a different stick david i had a look at your posting again and i see what you mean i was so intent on explaining how jung thought we could be more moral than god that i overlooked your main line of thought you seem to be saying that god being unknowable his morality is unknowable yep that s pretty much it i m not a jew but i understand that this is the jewish way of thinking however the jews believe that the covenant between yhwh and the patriarchs abraham and moses in this case establishes a moral code to follow for mankind even the jews could not decide where the boundaries fall though as i understand it the sadducees believed that the torah was all that was required whereas the pharisees the ancestors of modern judaism believed that the torah was available for interpretation to lead to an understanding of the required morality in all its nuances talmud the essence of all of this is that biblical morality is an interface between man and yhwh for a jew or christian and does not necessarily indicate anything about yhwh outside of that relationship although one can speculate the first thing that comes to mind is that man is supposed to be created in his image so there is an argument that we are committed to whatever moral code he follows as part of trying to live up to that image if we are supposed to live by christ s example you would be hard pressed to argue that god is a do what i say not what i do kind of guy the trouble with all of this is that we don t really know what the created in his image means i ve heard a number of different opinions on this and have still not come to any conclusion this rather upsets the apple cart if one wants to base a life script on this shaky foundation to mix metaphors unashamedly as to living by christ s example we know very little about jesus as a person we only have his recorded utterances in a set of narratives by his followers and some very small references from comtemporary historians revelation aside one can only know christ second hand or worse this is not an attempt to debunk christianity although it may seem that way initially the point i m trying to make is that we only really have the bible to interpret and that interpretation is by humanity i guess this is where faith or relevation comes in with all its inherent subjectiveness metaphysically if there are multiple moral codes then there is no absolute moral code and i think this is theologically questionable no there may be an absolute moral code there are undoubtably multiple moral codes the multiple moral codes may be founded in the absolute moral code as an example a parent may tell a child never to swear and the child may assume that the parent never swears simply because the parent has told the child that it is wrong now the parent may swear like a trooper in the pub or bar where there are no children the wrongness here is if the child disobeys the parent the parent may feel that it is inappropriate to swear in front of children but may be quite happy to swear in front of animals the analogy does not quite hold water because the child knows that he is of the same type as the parent and may be a parent later in life but you get the gist of it incidentally the young child considers the directive as absolute until he gets older see piaget and learns a morality of his own david on religion oh where is the sea the fishes cried as they swam its clearness through
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10,979 | talk.religion.misc | re after years can we say that christian morality is in article qjahh mrs horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article pww spac at rice edu pww spacsun rice edu peter walker writes in article qie fkt horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer wrote objective morality is morality built from objective values but where do those objective values come from how can we measure them what mediated thair interaction with the real world a moralon or a scalar valuino field science the real world has its basis in values not the other way round as you would wish it if there is no such thing as objective value then science can not objectively be said to be more useful than a kick in the head simple theories with accurate predictions could not objectively be said to be more useful than a set of tarot cards you like those conclusions i don t i think that you are changing the meaning of values here perhaps it is time to backtrack and take a look at the word value n a fair equivalent or return for something such as goods or service monetary or material worth worth as measured in usefulness or importance merit a principle standard or quality considered inherently worthwhile or desirable precise meaning as of a word an assigned or calculated numerical quantity mus the relative duratation of a tone or rest the relative darkness or lightness of a color the distinctive quality of a speech or speech sound in context of a moral system definition four seems to fit best in terms of scientific usage definitions six or eight might apply note that these definitions do not mean the same thing in my mind to say that science has its basis in values is a bit of a reach science has its basis in observable fact even the usages of the word value above do not denote observable fact but rather a standard of measurement i would conclude that science does not have its basis in values and so your statement above fails in fact if one concludes that a scientific set of measurements values are based on systems derived from observation then it must follow that in a scientific context there is no such thing as there is no such thing as objective values back to the present this has nothing to do with a moral system anyhow just because the word values is used in both contexts does not mean that there is a relationship between the two contexts if one is to argue for objective values in a moral sense then one must first start by demonstrating that morality itself is objective considering the meaning of the word objective i doubt that this will ever happen so back to the original question and objective morality is if you can provide an objective foundation for morality then that will be a good beginning frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon eric
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10,980 | talk.religion.misc | an invisible god god can be seen and i will take away my hand and thou shalt see my backparts ex and the lord spake to moses face to face as a man speaketh to his friend ex for i have seen god face to face and my life is preserved gen god cannot be seen no man hath seen god at any time john and he said thou canst not see my face for there shall no man see me and live ex whom no man hath seen nor can see tim pick what you want
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10,981 | talk.religion.misc | re kind loving merciful and forgiving god in article blue cis pitt edu joslin pogo isp pitt edu david joslin writes m mwunix mitre org james meritt writes a out of context must have missed when you said this about these other promises of god that we keep getting subjected to could you please explain why i am wrong and they are ok or an acknowledgement of public hypocrisy both or neither so according to you jim the only way to criticize one person for taking a quote out of context without being a hypocrite is to post a response to every person on t r m who takes a quote out of context did i either ask or assert that or is this your misaimed telepathy at work again btw to david josli i m still waiting for either your public acknowledgement of your telepathy and precognition are you a witch or an appology and retraction can you wait without whining to pass the time maybe you should go back and read the portions of my article that you so conveniently deleted in your reply you ll find most of your answers there nope in particular once he realized that he had example of telepathy responding jim s threa what threat produce it jim again still mystified more telepathy or maybe just empathic telepathy capable of determining emotional states jim trying to more telepathy how do you know trying jim preparing to precognition substantiate all this taken from your message id blue cis pitt edu
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10,982 | talk.religion.misc | catholic right pat robertson the roman catholic conservatives are coming out in the open to line up with pat robertson and his ultra right wing christian coalition former secretary of education william bennet a roman catholic stood beside the christian coalition s spokesman ralph reed at a march conference in washington the purpose of the conference was to publish results of a christian coalition poll which was designed to prove that the republican party would lose major support if it backed away from the family values positons of the convention conservative catholics have swung behind robertson s organization with political expertise legal assistance and high tech communications support the catholic campaign for american designed as a catholic version of the moral majority was founded by marlene elwell and tom wykes ms elwell has been with robertson since the days of his freedom council in and worked for him in his presidential bid in ms elwell was hired by domino s pizza magnate tom monaghan in to manage legatus a nonpolitical catholic businessmen s group membership is limited to catholics who head corporations with a least million in annual revenues relying on a network of wealthy contacts at legatus elwell and wykes had little trouble forming and funding the catholic campaign the campaign s list of national committee members includes u s rep robert k dornan phyllis schlafly of the eagle forum the lovely pat buchanan and rev richard j neuhaus also on the national committee is keith fournier a catholic who heads pat robertson s american center for law and justice another catholic thomas patrick monaghan senior counsel of robertson s aclj is also an active supporter of the catholic campaign the board of directors includes frank shakespeare broadcasting exec and former u s ambassador to the pope wall street executive frank lynch former reagan official richard v allen bishop rene gracida of corpus christi and mary ellen bork wife of unsuccessful supreme court nominee robert bork in the winter issue of campaign update the organization s quarterly newsletter rocco l martino a philadelphia business executive wrote separation of church and state is a false premise that must finally be cast aside and replaced by the true meaning of our constitution oh yes the organization s national ecclesisatical advisor is catholic politician cardinal john j o connor of new york jack carroll
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10,983 | talk.religion.misc | re after years can we say that christian morality is in article qjclt nh horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes as i recall i first entered the fray on this matter in response to an assertion by simon clippingdale that morality was relative oops quite right i got so busy that i saved frank s last post back then intending to respond when i could and i sort of forgot i ll try to do it soon if anyone s still interested and probably even if they re not is he therefore trying to sell something i don t think so well yes maybe i am i m trying to have people buy and take on my opinions thus causing said opinions to spread in time honoured memetic virus mode until the world is a veritable paradise so how about it folks as they say over here you know it makes sense frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon cheers simon simon clippingdale simon dcs warwick ac uk department of computer science tel university of warwick fax coventry cv al u k
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10,984 | talk.religion.misc | re after years can we say that christian morality is in article qjbn na horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article kmr po cwru edu kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes you have only pushed back the undefined meaning you must now define what objective values are really you don t know what objective value is if i offered the people of the u s collectively for all of the land in america would that sound like a good deal well that would depend on how much we wanted the us and how much we wanted the wouldn t it ekr eric rescorla ekr eitech com would you buy used code from this man
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10,985 | talk.religion.misc | re after years can we say that christian morality is in article c hqxj jdg ux cso uiuc edu lis bw ux cso uiuc edu lis student writes hmmmm define objective morality well depends upon who you talk to some say it means you can t have your hair over your ears and others say it means stryper is acceptable i would say that general principles of objective morality would be listed in one or two places ten commandments sayings of jesus the first depends on whether you trust the bible the second depends on both whether you think jesus is god and whether you think we have accurate copies of the nt gong take a moment and look at what you just wrote first you defined an objective morality and then you qualified this objective morality with subjective justifications do you see the error in this sorry you have just disqualified yourself but please play again mac eric
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10,986 | talk.religion.misc | re after years can we say that christian morality is in article qjd o nlv horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes in article qie fkt horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer wrote objective morality is morality built from objective values you now pushed down the defintion of objectivity into realm of objective values so you need to explain that as well as well as the objective sub parts the objective atoms quarks firstly science has its basis in values not the other way round you keep saying that i do not think it means what you think it means perhaps you should explain what you think science has it s basis in values means the reason why people do science is that they value it s results that does not mean that science has it s basis in values any more than des stops working if i stop valuing my privacy so you better explain what objective atoms are and how we get them from subjective values before we go any further see above ekr eric rescorla ekr eitech com would you buy used code from this man
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10,987 | talk.religion.misc | re after years can we say that christian morality is in article c hr jxw ux cso uiuc edu lis bw ux cso uiuc edu lis student writes my definition of objective would be absolute or fixed rather than subjective or varying and changing lets see what the dictionary has to say objective adj as having to do with a material object as distinguished from a mental concept having actual existance a uninfluenced by emotion or personal prejudice b based on observable phenomenon eric
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10,988 | talk.religion.misc | re kind loving merciful and forgiving god m mwunix mitre org james meritt writes joslin pogo isp pitt edu david joslin writes m mwunix mitre org james meritt writes a out of context must have missed when you said this about these other promises of god that we keep getting subjected to could you please explain why i am wrong and they are ok or an acknowledgement of public hypocrisy both or neither so according to you jim the only way to criticize one person for taking a quote out of context without being a hypocrite is to post a response to every person on t r m who takes a quote out of context did i either ask or assert that or is this your misaimed telepathy at work again stephen said you took a quote out of context you noted that stephen had not replied to some other t r m article call it a that took a quote out of context but the lack of evidence for x does not constitute evidence for the lack of x a common creationist error so the fact that stephen did not reply to a does not justify the conclusion that stephen condoned taking quotes out of context in a you asked stephen to explain why you were wrong and they were ok or to acknowledge that he was being a hypocrite both of the choices you give stephen assume that he condoned taking quotes out of context in a i assumed you were being logical and that the sentence that begins could you please explain was not a nonsequitur but was intended to follow from the sentence that preceded it therefore i concluded that you believed that implied that stephen condoned taking quotes out of context in a but we ve already seen that does not imply this therefore you were incorrect to believe that implied that stephen thought it was okay to take quotes out of context in a and were making an error of a kind that is frequently made by creationists is that better jim it s called an argument if you disagree with it explain why the argument is not sound i admit that my assumption in may have been a bit hasty if you agree with it just say yup dj yup jim s e mailed response when i pointed out in a posted article that one of his arguments was a straw man argument reminiscent of a frequent creationist ploy
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10,989 | talk.religion.misc | re is it good that jesus died in article apr organpipe uug arizona edu brian lpl arizona edu brian ceccarelli wrote the truth is is that it is not some sort of magic spell the truth is is that you do not understand it and enjoy not understanding it i m curious about this statement is it a known understanding amongst christian believers that people who don t understand the christian doctrines are enjoying this state i come from a background with a heavy christian teaching lutheran church and consider myself knowledgeable with the basic understandings of christianity at the same time i m not proud of things i don t understand or know of at this point of time ignorance is not bliss cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
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10,990 | talk.religion.misc | re clarification of personal position in article c muiw aqc mailer cc fsu edu dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu darius lecointe wrote i will repeat my position here worshipping on sunday has never been a sin as a child i attended services on saturday and sunday at the sda church and at the pentecostal church across the street i might even go to a baptist church next week i worship god every day and every christian should even if we can prove that christians should meet on sunday and we can t we can never prove that violation of the sabbath is not a sin any longer nor can we prove that violation of sunday is a sin we cannot use the sabbath commandment for that purpose my online bible is on a cd but i don t own a cd rom system for the time being so i can t search for the famous cite where jesus explicitly states that he didn t want to break existing jewish laws in other words technically speaking christians should use saturday and not sunday as their holy day if they want to conform to the teachings of jesus cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
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10,991 | talk.religion.misc | re scientology i need some brief information on scientology or applientology as frank zappa would call it anyone have the time to send me some info on ol l ron and the b asics of what scientology is all about would be appreciated p s i am not inte rested in any propaganda i ve taken the liberty of passing your name and address to your local org scientology office they ll be contacting you in a few days i also threw in a small contribution so they d know you re serious
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10,992 | talk.religion.misc | re after years can we say that christian morality is in article ursa bear com halat pooh bears jim halat writes atoms are not objective they aren t even real what scientists call an atom is nothing more than a mathematical model that describes certain physical observable properties of our surroundings all of which is subjective jim halat this deserves framing it really does atoms aren t even real tell me then those atoms we have seen with electron microscopes are atoms now so what are they figments of our imaginations the evidence that atoms are real is overwhelming but i won t bother with most evidence at the moment mccullou whipple cs wisc edu never program and drink beer at the same m time it doesn t work
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10,993 | talk.religion.misc | rosicrucian order s kent you say that there are about competing rosicrucian orders existing today most of them are spin offs from oto and other competing organizations from the th century france germany maybe i should write an article please don t about all this i spent some time investigating these organizations and their conceptual world view systems name just three really competing rosicrucian orders i have probably spent more time than you doing the same none of them are spin offs from o t o the opposite may be the case study harder tony
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10,994 | talk.religion.misc | re lds rick s reply robert weiss psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu writes rick anderson replied to my letter with ra in article c elp l c acsu buffalo edu ra psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu robert weiss says ra just briefly on something that you mentioned in passing you refer to differing interpretations of create and say that many christians may not agree so what that is really irrelevant we do not base our faith on how many people think one way or another do we the bottom line is truth regardless of popularity of opinions it may be irrelevant to you and your personal beliefs or should i say bias but it is relevant to me and many others you re right the bottom line is truth independant from you or anyone else since you proclaim truths as a self proclaimed appointee may i ask you by what authority you do this because it says so in the bible does the bible say so or is it you or someone else who interprets whether a scripture or doctrine conforms to your particular liking or disapproval excuse moi but your line of truths haven t moved me one bit to persuade me that my beliefs are erroneous of all the preachers of truth on this net you have struck me as a self righteous member of the wrecking crew with no positive message to me or other latter day saints whatsoever btw this entire discussion reminds me a lot of the things said by jesus to the pharisees ye hypocrite s ye preach about me with your lips but your hearts are far removed from me also i find it rather strange that in trying to persuade that created and eternally existent are equivalent you say granted the mormon belief you can t grant your conclusion and then expect the point to have been addressed in order to reply to the issue you have to address and answer the point that was raised and not just jump to the conclusion that you grant sophistry look who s talking jumping to conclusions you wouldn t do that yourself right all you address is your own convictions regardless whether we come up with any biblical scriptures which supports our points of view because you reject such interpretations without any consideration whatsoever the bible states that lucifer was created the bible states that jesus is the creator of all the contradiction that we have is that the lds belief is that jesus and lucifer were the same a beautiful example of disinformation and a deliberate misrepresentation of lds doctrine the former kgb would have loved to employ you jesus and lucifer are not the same silly and you know it the mormon belief is that all are children of god literally there is nothing symbolic about it this however contradicts what the bible says the bible teaches that not everyone is a child of god correction it may contradict would you think the bible says the bible indeed does teach that not all are children of god in the sense that they belong to or follow god in his footsteps satan and his followers have rebelled against god and are not children followers redeemed of god but it doesn t mean that they were not once created by god but chose to separate themselves from those who chose to follow god and his plan of salvation the field is the world the good seed are the children of the kingdom but the tares are the children of the wicked one matthew so this illustrates nicely what i just said the children of the kingdom are those who have remained valiant in their testimony of jesus and have shown works of repentance etc and the children of the wicked one are those who rebelled against god and the lamb the issue of satan s spirit offspring and those who followed him has not been addressed in this and other verses you copied from your bible you purposefully obscured the subject by swamping your right with non related scriptures lots of nice scriptures deleted not robert w copyrighted though ra we are told that and this is life eternal that they might know ra thee the only true god and jesus christ whom thou hast sent ra john life eternal is to know the only true god yet the ra doctrines of the lds that i have mentioned portray a vastly ra different jesus a jesus that cannot be reconciled with the jesus of ra the bible they are so far removed from each other that to proclaim correction my jesus is indeed different than your jesus and can be reconciled with the jesus in the bible not your interpretation of him i concur but i honestly couldn t care less ra one as being true denies the other from being true according to the ra bible eternal life is dependent on knowing the only true god and ra not the construct of imagination in this single posting of yours i ve seen more constructs of imagination than in all of the pro lds mails combined i have read so far in this news group first get your lds facts straight before you dare preaching to us about the only true god whom you interpret according to your own likes and dislikes but whose image i cannot reconcile with what i know about him myself i guess your grandiose self image does not allow for other faiths believing in the divinity of jesus christ but in a different way or fashion than your own not that it really matters the mission and progress of the lds church will go on boldly and nobly and no mob or opponent can stop the work from progressing until it has visited every continent swept every clime and sounded in every ear this is really a red herring it doesn t address any issue raised but rather it seeks to obfuscate the fact that some groups try to read something into the bible doesn t change what the bible teaches sigh what the bible teaches or what the bible teaches according to robert weiss and co i respect the former i reject the latter without the remotest feeling that i have rejected jesus on the contrary and by the way i do respect your interpretations of the bible i even grant you being a christian following your own image of him as much as i am a christian following my own image of him in my heart most of the other replies have instead hop scotched to the issue of bruce mcconkie and whether his views were official doctrine i don t think that it matters if mcconkie s views were canon that is not the issue were mcconkie s writings indicative of mormon belief on this subject is the real issue the indication from rick is that they may certainly be the issue is of course that you love to use anything to either mis represent or ridicule the lds church the issue of official doctrine is obviously very important mcconkie s views have been controversial e g the seven deadly heresies has made me a heretic at best or erroneous at worst blacks not to receive the priesthood in this dispensation i respect him as someone who has made his valuable contribution to the church but i personally do not rely on his personal interpretations his book mormon doctrine is oftentimes referred to as mcconkie s bible in mormon circles on mormon doctrine i rather look to official doctrinal sources and to hugh nibley s books the last comment is an lds insider reference summarizing mcconkie was a wise man who contributed undoubtedly far more to the kingdom of god than i have but whose views are by no means dogma or accepted doctrine some of it clearly belongs to personal interpretation and speculation but having said this i find mcconkie even in his most biased and speculative moments far more thought provoking than the trash coming from your proverbial pen i m somewhat appalled that i have allowed myself to sink as low as you in this posting robert weiss psyrobtw ubvms cc buffalo edu casper c knies isscck byuvm bitnet brigham young university isscck vm byu edu ucs computer facilities
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10,995 | talk.religion.misc | re after years can we say that christian morality is in article apr asl dl nec com duffy aslss asl dl nec com joseph duffy writes how does one falsify any origin theory for example are a forever existing universe or abiogenesis strictly falsifiable the same way that any theory is proven false you examine the predicitions that the theory makes and try to observe them if you don t or if you observe things that the theory predicts wouldn t happen then you have some evidence against the theory if the theory can t be modified to incorporate the new observations then you say that it is false for example people used to believe that the earth had been created years ago but as evidence showed that predictions from this theory were not true it was abandoned russ paul jones russpj microsoft com
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10,996 | talk.religion.misc | re after years can we say that christian morality is oxymoronic forgach noao edu suzanne forgach writes from article qcq f r fido asd sgi com by livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey if there is a western ethic against infanticide why are so many children dying all over the world the majority of the world isn t western superficially a good answer but it isn t that simple an awful lot of the starvation and poverty in the world is directly caused by the economic policies of the western countries as well as by the diet of the typical westerner for instance some third world countries with terrible malnutrition problems export all the soya they can produce so that it can be fed to cattle in the us to make tender juicy steaks and burgers they have to do this to get money to pay the interest on the crippling bank loans we encouraged them to take out fund raising for ethiopia is a truly bizarre idea instead we ought to stop bleeding them for every penny they ve got perhaps it s more accurate to say that there s a western ethic against western infanticide all the evidence suggests that so long as the children are dying in the third world we couldn t give a shit and that goes for the supposed pro life movement too they could save far more lives by fighting against third world debt than they will by fighting against abortion hell if they re only interested in fetuses they could save more of those by fighting for human rights in china and besides suzanne s answer implies that non western countries lack this ethic against infanticide apart from china with its policy of mandatory forced abortion in tibet i don t believe this to be the case mathew
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10,997 | talk.religion.misc | re after years can we say that christian morality is frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article qg bu kl fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes and this objective morality is and here children we have a person playing the objective morality doesn t exist show me one game you can play this with just about anything and this objective medicine is and this objective physics is and this objective reality is precisely there s no objective medicine some people get marvellous results from alternative therapy others only respond to traditional medicine there s no objective physics einstein and bohr have told us that there s no objective reality lsd should be sufficient to prove that one wonders just what people who ask such questions understand by the term objective if anything i consider it to be a useful fiction an abstract ideal we can strive towards like an ideal gas or a light inextensible string it doesn t actually exist but we can talk about things as if they were like it and not be too far wrong mathew
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10,998 | talk.religion.misc | re after years can we say that christian morality is frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes b i am neither a christian nor a theist but i believe in objective morality in preference to a relativist soup of gobbledegook well there are two approaches we can take here one is to ask you what this objective morality is assuming it s not a secret the other is to ask you what you think is wrong with relativism so that we can correct your misconceptions mathew
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10,999 | talk.religion.misc | re after years can we say that christian morality is frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes i am not a christian however i suspect that all flavours of christianity hold that a objective morality exists and b their particular interpretation of scripture revelation tv is a goodly glimpse of it that they may all disagree about b says nothing about the truth or falsehood of a actually they generally claim that b their particular interpretation of scripture revelation is this objective morality that there are two conflicting versions of this objective morality does tell us something about a it tells us at least one fake objective morality exists the next logical step is to deduce that any given religion s objective morality could be the fake one so caveat emptor mathew atheism anti virus software for the mind
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