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10,600 | talk.politics.misc | re new environmental group launches teddy o neill creature with furry hobbit feet from bath uk a sentimental fool posts with the force of a world wide youth movement it ought to be possible to establish a coordinated global program to accomplish the strategic goal of completely eliminating the internal combustion engine over say a twenty year period evidently there are no open questions either scientific or about how people prefer to live john mccarthy computer science department stanford ca he who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense
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10,601 | talk.politics.misc | re prolifer or terrorist threat in apr jetsun weitek com nadja weitek com nadja adolf writes in article c za h ihd wetware com drieux wetware com writes in article pamhpinn d geraldo cc utexas edu taite ccwf cc utexas edu writes i m prepared to instruct individuals in the proper use and handling of firearms as a desert storm vet with six years in the national guard i have a great deal of experience in handling weapons and tactical training ps anyone up for a discussion of counter sniper operations security drills your friend the counter terrorist operation if twit promises to train them in tactics and weapons handlings i doubt any of them will last long enough to become terrorists look for a sudden rise in firearms accidents among the fiends of the fetus though bless you nadja we needed a name for these attack puppies friends of the fetus or foof for short
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10,602 | talk.politics.misc | re i thought commercial advertising was not allowed debate deleted i guess it is allowed
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10,603 | talk.politics.misc | clinton president s remarks at town hall meeting the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april remarks by the president secretary of education richard riley and secretary of labor robert reich in goals satellite town hall meeting chamber of commerce building washington d c p m edt secretary riley good evening and welcome to all of you in the thousands of communities around the country that are taking part in this satellite town meeting for the month of april you know today is april th in thomas jefferson was born years ago i think that s appropriate to mention at the beginning of this meeting because since that time he has been of course a person who has been one that we ve all followed in terms of our democracy and the importance of education here in this great country the success of our democracy according to jefferson really depends upon the success of our educational system his philosophy of government his belief in the importance of education is also very meaningful to our special guest here this evening tonight we re so pleased to have with us president clinton he s come over from the white house to join us in the chamber of commerce studios mr president it s good to have you we thank you for taking the time to visit with these communities here on the satellite network and we welcome you here this evening also we have with us secretary of labor robert reich and bob it s certainly pleasant to have you with us this evening also i have some questions for our two guests and i m sure many of you do too so please call us if there s something that you d like to ask the number is or in washington d c the number is or i believe the president has a few words that he might want to share with us and mr president i ll ask you to do that at this time it s great to have you the president thank you very much mr secretary i m glad to be here with my friends dick riley and bob reich also members of my cabinet at the headquarters of the chamber of commerce to support the effort that the chamber is making along with its center for work force preparation to help to examine tonight the whole critical question of how to move our young people from school to the work place i want to compliment the chamber on all their efforts recognizing that without an educated work force we can t grow this economy or remain competitive and recognizing that we all have to work together business and government labor and educators to make things happen this satellite town meeting is a good example of that kind of working together and if you ll forgive me a little home state pride i want to say a special word of thanks to the wal mart corporation headquartered in bentonville arkansas for providing several hundred of the sites for this town meeting tonight i appreciate that a lot as well as the sites that are provided for all the rest of you i have tried as hard as i could to move toward constructive change for this country secretary riley talked about this being thomas jefferson s th birthday if thomas jefferson believed in anything he believed in these three things first in education second in real personal liberty freedom of religion freedom of speech freedom of association freedom of the press and third in the absolute imperative of changing as times change if you go to the jefferson memorial here in this beautiful city which is now bedecked with all of its wonderful cherry blossoms you will see jefferson saying that we have to change with changing times for us here in america that means reducing our deficit and increasing our investment and putting our people first so that we can compete in the world we re here to talk about that tonight about what we can do to educate and train our people better unless we do that none of the efforts that all the rest of us make in government even to bring the budget into balance even to increase our investment in other things which will grow jobs will last in the long run we also have to have people who can carry their load and in a world where the average young person will change jobs seven or eight times in a lifetime that begins with the education system and continues into the work force where education must go on for a lifetime it s not just important what you know but what you can learn and if i might i d like to close just by emphasizing we re doing our best to try to have the most innovative partnership between the labor department and the education department and the private sector to build a good school to work transition and we re trying to get off to a good start this summer with a program that would create more than new summer jobs including many thousands that have a strong education component so our young people can be learning and working at the same time dick i think i ought to stop there that s a good place we can begin i think the discussion secretary riley thank you so much mr president each month we get together and talk about ways that all citizens can work towards reaching the national education goals and tonight we ll focus on goal five and how communities such as yours can prepare students for this world of work this week the education department and the labor department are hosting a conference here in washington d c called summer challenge a program of work and learning to america s youth the aim is to use some special funds from president clinton s proposed economic stimulus package to provide educationally enriched jobs and summer school programs for young people in disadvantaged areas of the country mr president let s talk a minute you alluded to it somewhat about the summer youth challenge your program calls for more educational enrichment in the summer jobs and why in your words is that so important the president i think it s important for two reasons first of all a lot of the young people we re trying to reach may have had trouble adjusting to school and learning and while we want them to have a good experience with a real job we also want them to continue to learn during the summer because we know from a lot of research that a lot of kids that have trouble learning in school may forget as much as percent of what they learned the previous year over the summertime and that is a very unproductive thing for schools to have to take up a lot of time teaching what they already taught before secondly we want to help these young people progress not only in terms of work but in terms of learning we want to abolish the artificial dividing line between what is work and what is learning because we think that the best and most productive workers will have to be lifetime learners and we think that this experience could maybe drive that point home and prepare these young people to succeed in school or at work or in college as they go on secretary riley well i think the fact that these are disadvantaged kids that gap that lag you mentioned as they go into the next year is really even greater secretary reich of course you have training programs throughout the year and i wonder is you have any comment about this educational component of training secretary reich well what we ve learned mr secretary is that for many young people whether it s for the summer or for the year actually on the job work experience combined with education is one of the best ways of learning many young people for example have a lot they have a difficult time learning geometry but when they actually are there building something or working on something and they can see the exact and direct application of geometry they understand what it s used for and a lot of young people just that sense of connection between education and the world of work is terribly terribly important it s important during the summer but it s important for a lot of young people even beyond the summer secretary riley thank you mr president you ve called for a youth apprenticeship program school to work transition and i wonder if you would tell us a little bit about your concept of that and how you see it developing the president well first of all let s talk about why it s important most new jobs that will be created in this decade will not require a four year college degree but most of them will require some learning and skills that go well beyond what most people get in a high school diploma if you look at the last years the average salaries of young people that had at least two years of good post high school education was a good salary that went up over the decade the young people who had less than that tended to have lower wages that did not go up and in many cases in real terms fell over the decade because they weren t productive they weren t more valuable to their employers so we think america has a big economic interest in trying to ensure that all the young people who get out of high school but don t go on to college make a transition to work which includes two years of further training either in a community college a vocational setting or perhaps on the job and what i have done in this budget as you know is to give you and secretary reich some funds and some incentives to try to work in partnership with states and with the private sector to build these programs state by state in a way that would be customized essentially by the business community based on the needs of the economy in any given area it could revolutionize long term the quality of the american work force and the earnings of american workers secretary reich i should add mr president i think you know this from your experience in arkansas and many of the people watching this program that the business community and educators labor groups are already in many of our communities many of our states building a school to work transition program in fact there s an awful lot of ferment a lot of excitement the people watching this program probably are the ones who are most directly involved in that and more power to them secretary riley and i are going to do everything we can to build on the successes already out there secretary riley bob we re going to be talking tonight about youth apprenticeship and tech prep the co op learning career academies and what features all those programs that deal with this subject what are some of the features that every one of these school to work programs might have that are important secretary reich well one thing that we ve seen and you and i have been working at this for a long time and you much longer than i we ve seen that active involvement of the business community is absolutely essential and i m so delighted that we re doing this in the headquarters of the chamber of commerce the chamber of commerce of the united states is committed to doing these kinds of programs training education retraining and we ve aimed to work very closely with the chamber the business community is going to be actively engaged in developing almost an audit of the kind of jobs that are needed and helping the educators community colleges technical institutions develop curricula that are relevant for the jobs of the future communities have got to come together i mean this is one of the most important things you ve got to have all of these players in a community come together and work together and cooperate together you know too often we have the educators over here and the business leaders over here labor groups over here and everybody is talking but they re not really working together in a common strategy and the third and final ingredient i would say dick would be a commitment to excellence a commitment both to academic excellence and also to skills development excellence this is not a tracking program we re talking about for kids who are not going to make it this is a program that every young person ought to be eligible for if they want to go on beyond that to four year college that s fine that ought to be permissible but we re talking about the foundation of learning about jobs the foundation skills for on the job learning and again those are the critical components it s already being done the president i think if i might just interject one point based on my personal experience at home the business community has a critical role to play not simply in saying here are the job skills that are needed and here s what ought to be taught but also in monitoring that excellence if you have the right sort of partnership there the people who are paying the taxes and who are going to then be hiring the workers are not going to permit the second rate programs to survive if they have any way to shape and influence them so i think that s very important and when we try to if you will fill in the blanks at the federal level trying to set some standards and provide some funds one of the things that we want to be sure and do is to make sure that the employer has a heavy amount of influence over the quality of these programs because that s really what s going to determine whether the whole thing is worthwhile secretary riley that s great we ve been talking of course about school to work and also the jobs and economic recovery program for this summer and fall but let s talk just a moment about long term school reform it s something especially close to me mr president i wonder if you would give us some of your ideas for the communities out here on goals legislation that i think will be coming forth before too long the president well as you know back when you and i were both governors we spent a lot of time working on our public schools and we tried to be very candid with our people in saying that a lot of these things were going to take some time to materialize i had a hand in writing the national education goals that the governors drafted along with representatives of president bush s administration back in and what we re going to try to do this year with your leadership is to introduce legislation in congress that will actually define the things that the national government ought to do to try to help the local schools and the children of this country and the adult learners too meet those goals making sure that when by people show up for school ready to learn that we get a percent on time high school graduation rate that children at the th th and th grades are confident in the subjects they re supposed to know that they are second to none in math and science that are schools are safe disciplined and drug free and of course the fifth goal i took them out of line to say this the last is that we have a system of life long learning in this country and each one of those goals there s a national role a state role a school role school district role and a private sector role and what you ve attempted to do in this bill you re going to introduce with me in the next few weeks is to define what our job is and then to give the rest of america a way of defining what their job is and seeing whether we re actually meeting the standards of quality that we need to meet it s very exciting so far as i know nothing quite like it has ever been done in the form of federal legislation before not mandating and telling people what they have to do with their money but actually setting up a framework for excellence and partnerships so that we can do our job i m really excited about it secretary riley well i am too and i think really it will be an entirely new role for the federal government in terms of its relationship with states serving as a partner really to support and facilitate and to help out in these education reform efforts all driven by high standards that s the point bob let me ask you one question and then we ll get to the telephone calls it s about the same subject we have of course skills standards that are going to be part of goals and i wonder if you would comment on that secretary reich well you know we have percent of our young people who don t graduate from college very often they don t have very many alternatives they do have a wonderful system of community colleges and technical institutions but if we had national skill standards to which they could aspire and which employers would understand as a national credential many of these young people would actually find that they were much more eligible for jobs everybody doesn t have to go to college other countries you have smaller proportions of their population going to college but you have a whole level of people who have certain technical preprofessional skills we can do it in this country if you don t go to four year college you re not a loser and we want to develop those national skill standards we re going to be working with the states with the education department with a lot of private industry in developing those standards and i think they will be the kinds of things that enable our vocational and technical and other institutions to rally around as well as our business community secretary riley well that s great why don t we go ahead and go to the telephone we have a call i see mayor bruce todd of austin texas q yes mr president and mr secretary reich and riley we certainly appreciate the opportunity to join you today we have some dedicated professionals and volunteers here in austin who have heard what you have said and are very appreciative let me simply say amen to some of the comments made already we agree with much of the tone that the clinton administration has taken and are very supportive we have been successful here in austin of tripling our summer employment program over the last four years we expect to have over employed this year in the summertime perhaps as much as with the federal assistance much of the question that we had designed you have answered in your opening comments so we must be thinking alike but the question essentially involved what initiatives after labor day would be appropriate we know summertime is important year round is even more important and what kind of initiatives at the federal level might be proposed to meet the needs of the youth on a year round basis and perhaps more importantly how can families and the local community be more involved using the federal initiative that s something that we believe is very important to success in this effort secretary riley mr president the president i think i ll give everybody a chance to answer the question bruce but let me first thank you for calling and thank you for all the great work that you re doing in austin i ve seen some of it and i ve always been very impressed first with regard to the summer program we hope we can structure it in a way that will enable us to continue the summer program and that will move a lot of these young people back into schools under circumstances that might allow them to do some work in the private sector too we hope that secretary reich is going to try to set up a system where we create a lot of private sector jobs to be matched with the public sector jobs this summer and we re working on that secondly in the program that i have presented to the congress over the next five years what we are attempting to do is to build in an amount of investment that s quite substantial for job training programs for school to work programs all of which give heavy heavy weight to local community input just the question you asked but do provide some federal investment dollars which we hope you can put with local dollars to keep people working and being trained on a year round basis and i will say again to echo what secretary reich said a moment ago to try to break down the barrier between what is seen as work and what is seen as learning an awful lot of young people actually have quite high iqs but actually learn so much better when they re doing than when they re reading or just listening so we hope that the community involvement part of it will be permanent and we hope that if the whole budget passes and we do have budget cuts and more than actually in the budget and some revenue raisers and some new money for education and training that we ll be able to do just what you seem to want based on your question bob do you want to say anything secretary reich well you took most of the words out of my mouth mr president as usual but let me just add one thing and that is that one of the most important aspects of post high school for a lot of young people who are not going on to college in addition to the school to work program simply is the availability of jobs and we ve got to get this economy moving again obviously it s terribly important to get this recovery program to get the economy back on track that s sort of the prerequisite to everything else if we don t get the economy back on track we have i think this is the th correct me if i m wrong mr president i think is the th month we have had seven percent unemployment or greater this is a jobless recovery a lot of those kids are going to be getting out of school in june and even if we did everything right they would have a very very hard time getting jobs secretary riley thank you both of course goals will be a permanent long term thing that will certainly reach into next year it will involve if passed and we certainly hope it will be action plans with every state where we can be working together to reach for the goals in a number of different ways and then the state with all the various school districts a very important part of that will be citizen and parent involvement and i think everybody will see a great energy out there once we get that moving the next call is dr harry heinemann new york doctor q good evening mr secretary it is a pleasure to be on with you this evening as you may know bridging the school and work has been central to la guardia s educational program since its inception in the s and that includes the college the two alternative high schools that operate on our campus and the linkages we have forged with the local schools we have found this to be an extremely effective learning strategy and over the years we ve come to believe that there are several principles that are very important in bridging the school and work and these include integrating theory in the classroom with practice in the workplace with providing all students early exposure to careers as well as providing opportunities for them to reflect upon these experiences while they strengthen their skills and lastly the critical role of the liberal arts particularly in the development of high performance competencies my question then is how can the general education faculty and the academic curriculum be more closely integrated with transition to work experience and what mechanisms and strategies can you suggest to achieve this integration secretary riley well thank you very much i think and we ll get a response from you all on that and very interesting work going on there we re going to have three people our next guests on the program this evening that will be some specialists in that area that you re speaking and i ll certainly pass that on to them and we can discuss it later you all care to comment any comments you might have the president i d just like to say if i might one thing i want to reemphasize this and i don t think i m being as clear about it as i d like although i think at least one of the people who will be on the second panel will be able to say it more explicitly than i i think this whole concept of applied academics is very important and i think that we have to basically abolish what i consider to be a very artificial distinction between what is vocational learning and what is academic learning i think we should keep the liberal arts going i think we should have a strong component for people who are in the vocational program secretary reich it seems to me that we also need to rethink our entire tracking system because a lot of these school and work combinations are important for mainstream students they re important for all students it s not just a special group of students that needs them some of the experiments that i ve seen around the united states dick i m sure you ve seen them as well are mainstream experiments they re mainstreaming all the students at th and th grades they re giving them a combined work and school experience and then a transition program and again the kids can either go on to college if they want they can go on to technical community they can go on to an entirely a large variety of possibilities and career directions but we have to get away from the stigmatizing that often goes on with young people who simply are doing job related or work related work within the classroom within our schools secretary riley thank you very much i think that s going to be the last call that we have time for mr president i think you ve got to move on to another matter and i want to thank you and secretary reich for being here we appreciate your time and your ideas and it s been a tremendous help to us end p m edt
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10,604 | talk.politics.misc | re clinton president s remarks at town hall meeting in a previous article clinton hq campaign org clinton gore says the president thank you very much mr secretary kind of working together and if you ll forgive me a little home state pride i want to say a special word of thanks to the wal mart corporation headquartered in bentonville arkansas for providing several hundred of the sites for this town meeting tonight i when did bill start doing endorsements will he do the remington shaver ad tune in next week
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10,605 | talk.politics.misc | re law and economics procedural note ted directed followups to misc legal only while i respect his right to do so my own opinions are that followup to fields are mere suggestions not mandatory commands and this issue is of sufficient a general political relevance and b civil liberties interest to warrant keeping it active in t p m and a s c l as well at least for this round in article apr midway uchicago edu thf midway uchicago edu said uh no that s not what happened in boomer what happened in boomer was that the judge didn t allow the plaintiffs to blackmail the cement plant by demanding a multi million dollar plant to be shut down over in damages and required the plant to pay the plaintiffs the to make them whole the plant would never have been shut down the plaintiff s lawyers would have just negotiated a windfall settlement because the plaintiffs would prefer an amount greater than k to having the plant shut down while the plant would prefer any amount less than the value of the plant to have the plant continue in operation everyone s property rights were protected the plaintiffs were made whole unnecessary settlement costs were avoided okay now here s my interpretation of boomer based on the facts as presented in the new york court of appeals holding boomer v note the new york court of appeals is the highest court in new york state while the united states and of the fifty states call their highest court supreme court supreme judicial court or supreme court of appeals maryland and new york call theirs simply the court of appeals to make matters worse new york also calls its second highest court the supreme court appellate division atlantic cement co n y d n e d oscar h boomer et al owned land near the atlantic cement company s plant near albany n y the fact pattern gives no information as to which came first the plaintiff s acquisition of the land or he defendant s start of production at their cement plant in the course of its regular operations the cement plant did injury to the plaintiffs property via dirt smoke and vibrations emanating from the plant the plaintiffs sought injunctive relief that is they asked the court to order atlantic cement to stop damaging their property commentary this seems entirely reasonable to me boomer at al owned their property and presumably a right to quiet enjoyment of it atlantic cement s actions were depriving boomer et al of that right instead of granting the plaintiffs request for an injunction the court ordered them to accept the damage being done to their property provided that atlantic cement paid them in compensatory damages in other words the court granted atlantic cement co a private party the power and authority to take the plaintiffs rights to quiet enjoyment of their property by eminent domain a taking by eminent domain is always problematical even when it s done by the state allowing a private firm to do it is in my opinion totally wrong yes i know the boomer court didn t call it eminent domain but if it walks like eminent domain and swims like eminent domain and quacks like eminent domain let me take issue with the way you ve presented the case you say that what happened in boomer was that the judge didn t allow the plaintiffs to blackmail the cement plant by demanding a multi million dollar plant to be shut down over in damages blackmail pulls out black s law dictionary abridged th edition blackmail unlawful demand of money or property under threat to do bodily harm to injure property to accuse of crime or to expose disgraceful defects this crime is commonly included under extortion statutes how do you define as blackmail one party s act of demanding the right to set its own sale price for a unique piece of property which it owns and which another party has expressed an interest in buying or of demanding the right not to sell that property at any price as i see it boomer et al having found themselves in the fortunate position of owning something which atlantic cement had to purchase if it wanted to stay in business had every right in the world to set whatever price they wanted there isn t or at least shouldn t be any law that says that you have to be a nice guy in your private business dealings you go on to say the plant would never have been shut down the plaintiff s lawyers would have just negotiated a windfall settlement because the plaintiffs would prefer an amount greater than k to having the plant shut down while the plant would prefer any amount less than the value of the plant to have the plant continue in operation if so so what since when are the courts supposed to be in the business of preventing parties from reaping windfall settlements from other parties when those settlements arise from wrongful acts by those other parties if atlantic cement didn t want to have to face a choice between paying a windfall settlement or going out of business well shouldn t atlantic cement have thought of that before going into business i note that as far as the facts show boomer et al were not the parties responsible for bringing about this situation that was atlantic cement s own fault for choosing to build and operate the type of plant they did where and when they did and then you say everyone s property rights were protected the plaintiffs were made whole unnecessary settlement costs were avoided as above i dispute your claim that the plaintiffs were made whole they were in fact by court action deprived of their rights as owners of property to choose to sell or not sell that property at a price acceptable to them and for that deprivation they were not made whole and again i ask since when are the courts supposed to be in the business of ensuring that unnecessary settlement costs are avoided if so i ve been miseducated i always thought that the courts were supposed to be in the business of ensuring that justice is done is boomer really being taught as infamous that s really sad if it is because i fail to see how it s less than completely sensible you should read the law and economics stuff first hand instead of filtered through teachers who clearly don t like it for whatever inexplicable reasons boomer is not being taught as infamous at least not at my school aside northeastern law usually does a very good job of hiring for their first year mandatory classes such as torts where i first encountered boomer instructors who regardless of their personal opinions can and do teach the law neutrally when the students get into their second and third years in which the students a can pick and choose which courses to take except for the mandatory professional responsibility of course and b are presumed to be a bit more worldly and self confident less likely to be consciously or sub consciously intimidated by law school professors and able to learn from openly biased instructors rather than be indoctrinated by them the instructors tend to be more open in expressing their own opinions this is especially true of part time instructors who in real life are practicing attorneys or sitting judges this can be very educational sometimes far more so than being taught by a somewhat cloistered scholar end of aside i called it infamous because that s my opinion of it for the reasons i ve stated above i believe it to be a triumph of something that i can only call economic correctness over justice it is completely sensible only if you believe that the alleged right of the owners of atlantic cement to stay in business and avoid losing a lot of their own money due to their own wrongful act and the alleged right of several hundred atlantic cement employees to not have their jobs disappear should trump the rights of people who own property which was damaged by atlantic cement s wrongful acts and if you believe that it is correct for the courts or any other branch of government to grant to private parties the right to take other people s property by eminent domain you d like posner bill he s a libertarian really i didn t know that what if anything has he had to say about cases like boomer of course he has too much of a paper trail to ever be nominated by a president democrat won t like his antitrust stance or republican won t like his support of gay marriage and if bright law students shiver at what they don t understand it s easy to imagine how the press will play it up as baby selling i ve seen mike godwin claim that posner asserts that law and economics is applicable to everything and is the end all and be all when posner says precisely the opposite so it goes i ve admitted that my understanding of the field generally referred to as law and economics is weak if it advocates the use of economical analysis as one of many tie breaker factors which courts may use to help them reach decisions in cases in which the dispute as measured by the scale of justice is evenly balanced fine but as illustrated by boomer it is not fine when the courts start viewing the economics of a case as being more important than the justice of a case william december starr wdstarr athena mit edu
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10,606 | talk.politics.misc | re clinton s immunization program in article c fjsl is ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com mark wilson writes on the news last night clinton was bashing the republicans for stonewalling his so called stimulus package it seems that one small item within this package was going to pay for free immunizations for poor kids so now clinton is claiming that the republicans are holding the health of poor kids hostage for blatantly political gains aside from the merits or lack thereof of another free immunization program just what is such a program doing in a bill that is supposedly about creating jobs jobs what the hell have jobs to do with it it s another touchy feely program from the new vapid administration the fact is the major claim made for universal immunization that all children will be immunized has absolutely no validity several states already have u i programs have had these programs for years the result on average their success rates are no better than the national average it seems that the gummint hasn t yet figured out a way to make parents bring their kids in yet another case of shameless demagoguery from the new democrats the agents of change if clinton is so hot to get this immunization program why doesn t he and the democrats just introduce it as a stand alone bill isn t it possible that clinton is the one doing the blatant political read pork manipulations here he is telling the republicans pass my muti billion dollar package or i will go to the people and tell them that you are opposed to immunizing poor kids what clinton using this issue for partisan gain do tell i have never thought highly of clinton but stunts like this lower my opinion of him even further i thought one of clinton s campaign themes was that he was going to be a new kind of politician this kind of manuevering would have made lbj proud all together now c mon you know the words meet the new boss same as the old boss and the chorus we won t get fooled again paul havemann internet paul hsh com they re not just opinions they re caffeine for the brain up to milligrams per cynical observation recommended minimum daily requirement mg keep reading
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10,607 | talk.politics.misc | recent news in the hopes of adding a little life to what seems to be the same old debates i would like to add a few bits of info and ask for comments a couple days ago the headlines were splashed with stories of proof that the north vietnamese had held u s hostages after the war ended way back in today s newspaper page a of san francisco chronicle there is an article about the document that held the proof used without permission the document which was discovered in the archives of the soviet communist party in moscow is a russian translation of what is described as a september report prepared for the vietnam politburo by general tran van quang who is identified as the deputy chief of staff of the north vietnamese army later on in the article after it talks about the claim of americans in north vietnamese prisons phong said the easiest way to prove that the document is a fabrication is to review quang s career in he said quang was not deputy chief of staff he was the army commander in military region in central vietnam i heard on the radio that the church of scientology has filed for bankrupcy becuase the employees of cocolat owned by cos filed a class action suit against them for requiring the employees to pay dues to become members of the church anyone heard more about this micheal jackson went into business with micheal milken no lie who said anything about panicking snapped authur garrett johnson this is still just culture shock you wait till i ve garrett ingres com settled into the situation and found my bearings then i ll start panicking douglas adams
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10,608 | talk.politics.misc | re employment was re why not concentrate on child molesters dov bai msi visitor bai msiadmin cit cornell edu wrote in article c fg t at exnet co uk sys exnet co uk xavier gallagher writes true man did not invent the need for food shelter warmth and the ilk but man did invent the property laws and the laws of trespass but how do you think property is generated does it grow automatically on trees when we wish so or someone has to produce it some say it was generated by god or goddess some say it was the result of the coalescence of billions of tons of interstellar debris in either case the property of which xavier speaks has been around for millions of years it all follows from the fact that mother nature does not provide us automatically with our needs oh when did she stop mother nature has been automatically providing us with her bounty ever since we crawled out of the primordial ooze it is not produced it produces itself year after year last night for example i saw four deer crossing the road pretty sight too in an earlier time one of them would have been dinner there are ways to go with produced things the first is to trade it with the the person s who produced it the other one is to take it with a gun from the person who produced it the first way is the civilized method the second is how savages arrange their affairs the american indians had no concept of ownership of property and often freely gave of their supplies to neighboring tribes trading food and clothing for weapons or services the native hawaiians like their polynesian ancestors also could not conceive of that idea and shared many things with the other islanders in fact hi ipoi the hawaiian word for cherish means sharing food the great mahele in which the islands were divided up more or less evenly between the rich and the poor was a white man s idea in africa villagers will often share tools crops and clothing with other members of their own village and neighboring villages every anthropologist who has ever been to africa has at least one tale of the difficulties arising from the so called theft of the scientists possessions two concepts of which until the visitors came along the natives had no understanding these are the people we call savages on the other hand car jackings and muggings are up from last year dov before you make further comment on this thread i think it would behoove you to study all of the facts garison
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10,609 | talk.politics.misc | re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article c ij h l news iastate edu jrbeach iastate edu jeffry r beach writes in article apr gordian com mike gordian com michael a thomas writes in article c huh news iastate edu jrbeach iastate edu jeffry r beach writes think about it shouldn t all drugs then be legalized it would lower the cost and definitely make them safer to use yes i don t think we want to start using these criterion to determine legality why not where do they get these people i really don t want to waste time in here to do battle about the legalization of drugs if you really want to we can get into it and prove just how idiotic that idea is you asked a question and now you don t want people to answer i believe a legitimate question was asked why shouldn t cost and safety be used at least in part to determine legality i d like to see you prove that drug legalization is an idiotic idea seems to me the evidence from great britain is pretty convincing that drug legalization is a good idea even such a noted conservative as william f buckley supports it my point was that it is pretty stupid to justify legalizing something just because it will be safer and cheaper a few more ideas to hold to these criterion prostitution the killing of all funny farm patients aids victims elderly unemployed prisioners etc this would surely make my taxes decrease your examples except for prostitution fail miserably to meet both criteria safer and cheaper obviously killing people is not safe as for prostitution why shouldn t it be legal dale cook any town having more churches than bars has a serious social problem edward abbey the opinions are mine only i e they are not my employer s
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10,610 | talk.politics.misc | re lincoln slavery was re top ten tricks cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes judy technology com judy mcmillin writes cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes can you provide some evidence that the slave states regarded slaves as not humans they were outside our society and similar phrases that basically meant that they didn t have to recognized as having the same rights as a free person but they were never considered not human to my knowledge isn t the fact that slaves were purchased as opposed to hired enough evidence that they were not thought as humans didn t the bill of rights provide basic freedoms to humans that were not available to slaves not necessarily distinctions were made between citizens and persons throughout the u s and various state constitutions for example free blacks had some rights of citizens but not all the rights of citizens i m curious if there was an additional level of distinction made by the slave states to rationalize their treatment of slaves or if they just ignored the theoretical problems of slave ownership the bill of rights as far as i can see does not once refer to citizens but it makes several references to people for example article iv the right of the people to be secure in their persons houses papers and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated article v no person shall be held to answer for a capital or otherwise infamous crime unless on a presentment or indictment by a grand jury nor shall any person be deprived of life liberty or property without due process of law article viii excessive bail shall not be required nor excessive fines imposed nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted now i ve never heard that constitutional rights apply only to citizens aren t they meant to apply equally to all persons living in the u s whether slaves were considered not human i don t know but it seems that a case could be made that they weren t treated as people as defined in the bill of rights and since the nation is nominally based on the declaration of independence which states that all men are created equal that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights that among these are life liberty and the pursuit of happiness it would also seem that slaves would not follow under this definition of humanity eric smith erics netcom com erics infoserv com ci
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10,611 | talk.politics.misc | reserve officers say demographics ignored in nominations to close naval marine reserve centers here is a press release from the reserve officers association reserve officers say demographics ignored in nominations to close naval marine reserve centers to national desk defense writer contact herbert m hart of the reserve officers association of the united states washington april u s newswire the reserve officers association of the united states has alerted the defense base realignment and closure commission that the services failed to give sufficient weight to demographics in recommendations made to close naval and marine corps reserve centers in letters to the closure commission and to all members of congress with affected locations in their constituencies including sen sam nunn d ga chairman of the senate armed services committee roa charged that the developers of the navy marine list ignored demographics of the civilian population particularly prior service personnel roa s executive director maj gen evan l hultman aus ret suggested concern that the only plausible alternative is that they are intentionally attempting to foreclose the naval reserve components from maintaining even today s relatively low level of participation in their parent service s total force of the future he asked the commission to remove from consideration all locations without sufficient and convincing demographic data to warrant approval of the requested action only a few of the naval and marine corps reserve installations on this list are large enough to have a significant impact on the community if closed wrote hultman the major issue is the cumulative impact of moving or closing such a large percentage of the existing locations hultman reminded the commission the fact that the vast majority of the reserve installations on this list do not come close to meeting the minimal requirements for consideration in this process certainly supports the thesis that these actions are simply an attempt to foreclose a substantial role for the navy and marine corps reserve roa also noted that at the end of the s when the number of naval reservists was approximately the same as today there were naval reserve facilities if the navy recommendations are approved there will be less than naval reserve facilities facilities on the list include seven naval air stations ranging from south weymouth mass to alameda calif naval reserve centers in macon ga and parkersburg w va to missoula and great falls mont naval marine corps reserve centers include four in san francisco fort wayne ind billings mont and abilene texas a major marine reserve center on the list is that at el toro calif plus six others nigel allen toronto ontario canada ndallen r node hub org
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10,612 | talk.politics.misc | clinton president names officials at transp comm defen opic the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april president names officials at transportation commerce defense and opic washington dc president clinton announced his intention today to nominate albert herberger to be administrator of the federal maritime administration loretta dunn to be assistant secretary of commerce for import administration and christopher finn to be executive vice president of the overseas private investment corporation additionally he has approved the appointments of joan yim to be deputy administrator of the federal maritime administration alice maroni to be principal deputy comptroller of the department of defense and deborah castelman to be deputy assistant secretary of defense for command control and communications we are continuing to move forward with putting together a government of excellent diverse americans who share my commitment to changing the way that washington works said the president these six people i am naming today fit that bill biographical sketches of the nominees are attached biographical sketches of nominees april albert herberger a thirty five year navy veteran who retired with the rank of vice admiral is the vice president of the international planning and analysis center ipac among the positions he held during his naval service were deputy commander in chief of the u s transportation command director of logistics on staff for the atlantic fleet commander in chief and director of the military personnel policy division for the office of naval operations a surface warfare expert and a merchant marine officer with over eighteen years operational experience herberger is also vice chairman of the national defense transportation association s sealift committee he is a graduate of the u s merchant marine academy and the naval postgraduate school loretta dunn has served on the staff of the senate committee on commerce science and transportation since since she has been the committee s senior trade counsel responsible for drafting trade legislation and reports planning and conducting hearings managing legislation on the senate floor and in conferences with the house overseeing a variety of executive branch agencies including the department of commerce she was previously a staff counsel for the committee dunn holds a b a in history from the university of kentucky a j d from the university of kentucky college of law and an l m from the georgetown university law center christopher finn is the executive vice president of equities for the american stock exchange previous positions he has held have included senior vice president of the air and water technologies corporation chief of staff to senator daniel p moynihan deputy commissioner of the new york state department of economic development and chief legislative aide to congressman james r jones finn is a graduate of harvard college joan yim is a professional planner with over years experience in community based planning policy analysis project design and management inter agency coordination and government affairs from she was with the hawaii office of state planning as a planner on issues relating to natural resource and coastal zone management and public infrastructure financing among other issues currently she is supervising planner with the honolulu firm of parsons brinckerhogg quade douglas before going to work for the state she was executive neighborhood commission secretary for the city and county of honolulu and chair on the kaneohe community planning committee a democratic national committeewoman yim holds a b a from connecticut college and pursued graduate studies at the university of hawaii more april page two alice maroni is a professional staff member of the house armed services committee specializing in defense budget issues she previously worked as a national defense specialist in the foreign affairs and national defense division of the congressional research service and as an international risk analyst for rockwell international she has written extensively on defense budget related topics maroni received her b a from mount holyoke college and an m a from the fletcher school of law and diplomacy at tufts university she has also completed the senior service program at the national war college and harvard s program for senior executives in national and international security deborah castleman is currently on leave from rand where she is a space and defense policy analyst she was an advisor to the clinton gore campaign on space science and technology and national security issues prior to joining rand in castleman held engineering positions with the hughes space and communications group general dynamics and electrac inc she served as an avionics technician in the air force from castleman holds a b s in electrical and electronic engineering from california state polytechnic university m s in electrical engineering from the california institute of technology and m a in international studies from claremont graduate school
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10,613 | talk.politics.misc | re clinton president s remarks at town hall meeting in article qia inngta life ai mit edu clinton hq campaign org clinton gore writes secretary riley good evening and welcome to all of you in the thousands of communities around the country that are taking part in this satellite town meeting for the month of april you know today is april th in thomas jefferson was born years ago i think that s appropriate to mention at the beginning of this meeting because since that time he has been of course a person who has been one that we ve all followed in terms of our democracy and the importance of education here in this great country the success of our democracy according to jefferson really depends upon the success of our educational system i wonder if he realizes the irony of a federal secretary invoking a rabid anti federalist in support of federal education programs david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
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10,614 | talk.politics.misc | re a loathesome subject in article apr ads com henry ads com henry mensch writes carlos beowulf jpl nasa gov carlos carrion wrote just curious don t have to answer if you feel uncomfortable how many times have you had sex with boys why do you care if a total stranger asked you how often you had sex would you answer henry mensch booz allen hamilton inc henry ads com this is so typical of homosexuals constantly making excuses for child molesters clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
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10,615 | talk.politics.misc | re roe v wade in article lsm fjinnlnf exodus eng sun com chased rbbb eng sun com david chase writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes i remain pro choice but when pro choicers compare abortion in a clinic to a religious ritual in a church you have to start wondering a bit if the pro life criticism of abortion as modern human sacrifice doesn t have a grain of truth to it in article ls ruoinn b exodus eng sun com chased rbbb eng sun com david chase writes ah clayton so i see that you have found someone new to bash tell me how many pro choicers have compared abortion in a clinic to a religious ritual in a church i ll bet that you ve seen overwhelming support for this opinion in some newsgroup or another in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes no but i ve seen the comparison drawn by pro choicers in ca politics it is worrisome to me but not to you i ve been reading ca politics for a while now and i don t recall seeing such a comparison you don t read my postings very carefully i m not surprised it was pretty shocking and is part of why my sympathy though not agreement with the pro lifers is increasing a handful of lunatic opinions expressed in ca politics does not make me think that the opinion is widely held when did i say that it was clayton i wish i knew what made you tick your math sucks and you take single instances of fringe opinions and proclaim the existence of a pernicious trend there s about a quarter billion people living in this country some small number of them are almost guaranteed to hold opinions that you and i find positively repellent as long as the small number is truly a small number and as long as they re not my neighbor highly likely i m not worried about it when they hold high public office you should worry by the way when you cite experts remember that carl sagan and paul ehrlich sp are experts too if i ve never heard of your experts i ll consider the source you a man who is clearly unable to master elementary statistics and uses of statistical inference and ignore them david chase you mean i don t come to the conclusions that your emotional state requires clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
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10,616 | talk.politics.misc | re professors whining about pay in article qf kqinnrkd elroy jpl nasa gov fogarty sir c jpl nasa gov tim fogarty writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes in article q k binne k elroy jpl nasa gov fogarty sir c jpl nasa gov tim fogarty writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes professors get summers off industry employees don t what professor gets the summer off the primary purpose of a professor at a university is to publish teaching is secondary the summer is when professors are able to do the research required for their papers i m told by my advisor that only at some universities is publishing the primary emphasis many professors in the cal state university system don t publish at all those that prefer teaching are under no pressure to publish when discussing and issue it helps that all participants use the same definitions although this rarely occurs on usenet when i use the term university i think of an organization that has a bachelors masters and phd program i believe that cal state schools do not i call them colleges uc schools are universities at a univeristy the number one goal is to publish cal state university system offers bachlors and masters degrees the ph d is not offered because of opposition from uc at the cal state schools do the professors you speak of have phds at nearly all the professors have phds i haven t had a professor who didn t though my wife has had a couple of professors with just an m a a friend had an instructor who didn t have a degree at all but because he had been minister of culture for the black panthers he was teaching anyway he had a bad habit of usually not showing up to teach the class and finally quit in disgust at the racism of a university that expected him to show up to teach a university you have professors with phds and then teaching assistants tas tas were the slave labor graduate students who got their tuition paid and a few hundred a month for living expenses in exchange for doing all the grunt work the professors taught the lectures with to students per class then the tas taught the labs with to per class tim fogarty fogarty sir c jpl nasa gov at sonoma state university typical class size is to per class teaching is definitely more the goal and sometimes it actually happens the best professors at sonoma state u are equivalent to the best professors i had at ucla and usc clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
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10,617 | talk.politics.misc | clinton president s remarks at summer jobs conference the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april remarks by the president at summer jobs conference hyatt regency crystal city virginia a m edt the president thank you very much the speech that octavius gave says more than anything i will be able to say today about why it s important to give all of our young people a chance to get a work experience and to continue to learn to merge the nature of learning and work why it s important to honor the efforts of people like jerry levin and nancye combs and pat irving and all of those who are here i want to thank the secretaries of labor and education and all the people who work with them for sponsoring this and my good friend governor wilder for being here and for speaking and all of the business and local community leaders from the city and county and state level from around america who are here this has been a pretty fun day laughter i loved hearing the young people sing it was music to my ears because it is their future that we are really struggling about applause a year and a half ago i began the quest to seek the presidency because i was concerned about their future because i believe that our country which had always been a beacon of hope for the young had too little opportunity was too divided among ourselves across lines of income and race and region and other ways without a vision to take us into the future i entered with the hope that together we could create more opportunity and insist on much more responsibility from all of our people but in the process we might recreate the best of america s community knowing that together we could always to more than we could individually and that we might secure our future all of you here today are committed to that the jobs that jerry levin has committed time warner to is symbolic of the commitments made by many of the private sector people who are here and those who are around the country the work that nancye combs does and the successes of all the young people like those on this stage and especially the eloquent statement octavius jeffers all those things show that together we know what we need to do and we re on the right track last july when i was traveling across america s heartland in my luxurious bus i visited seneca high school in louisville kentucky and there i met young people and business people who were participating in the louisville education and employment partnership i saw what nancye combs talked about today i saw how the young people were making an extra effort to succeed both in school and at work i saw as i have seen many times in my own state the principle illustrated that octavius has talked about that for millions of american young people it is really an impediment to both their learning and their ability to be good workers to draw a sharp dividing line between what is work and what is learning in the world in which we are living the average young person will change the nature of work seven or eight times in a lifetime we must learn to merge the work world and the learning world much better and we must determine that all of our young people see the opportunities that some of them have had showcased here today whether you re in business or in government or in education you know that we have a big job to do when it comes to building a future that really honestly includes opportunity for all of our people there are still a lot of people who say well things are pretty good here in washington and everything s fine the best thing we can do about this whole thing is nothing they all have jobs laughter all the people who say that applause they all have health insurance they all have a pretty good education and they all have a pretty secure knowledge that they ll be okay no matter what happens i say that not to be either political or unduly critical but to point out that one of the great challenges of this age for every advanced nation everyone is to fully develop the capacities of all of its people and then find work for them to do all the european countries have higher unemployment rates than we do but also stronger support systems for the unemployed the japanese unemployment rate has been going up they re going to adopt a stimulus that even if you count it in its most rigorous terms is three or four times bigger than the one that i have proposed to create jobs in west germany alone the unemployment rate is now about as high as ours this is a big problem for advanced nations it costs a lot of money to add an extra employee with a lot of pressure from low wage producers in other countries that are growing their own economies and trying to provide new opportunity for their people but it is especially important for america for two reasons one is we have a whole lot of folks who unless we move aggressively will not have the education and skills we need to be competitive and productive in a nation like this the second is even if we educate them all if there aren t jobs they will be robbed of the fruits of their educational labors people need to be able to work in this country applause we have always had some unemployment and indeed some of it is normal you ve always got some people leaving jobs and moving around the country and doing first one thing and another we have now at this moment in our history the necessity for all big organizations including the government to reexamine the way they are organized and who ask whether there are too many people working at some kinds of jobs but in the whole we must still be able to create jobs in a country like america to provide people with the chance to work it s going to be difficult for me to make the welfare reform proposals that i will make to congress in the next couple of months it s going to be hard for me to make those work if at the end of all this work to get off welfare there isn t a job applause so we have two tasks one is to develop the capacity of the american people to perform without regard to race or income or the circumstances of their birth the other is to make sure that there are some opportunities for them to bring to bear for their talent and to be rewarded with a paycheck it is a great challenge i do not pretend that all of the answers are simple but i know if you want to ask the american people all of them to be more responsible if you want to recreate a sense of community in this country that bridges the lines of race and income and region you have got to have opportunity in that mix a part of our vision for america has to be a future for every young person in this country who s willing to play by the rules and work hard and strive for the end of the rainbow there has to be something at the end of that rainbow and that is what we are basically here to talk about today what can we all do as partners recognizing none of us can do it alone to develop the capacities of our people to succeed wherever they live and whatever their background and then what can we do to make sure that there s something there for them to do the summer jobs program we re discussing today is an integral part of that plan because it will promote the values of work and opportunity and fairness community it will put the people first and it does have a partnership between the public and private sector i said when i addressed the united states congress in february on this program that i would seek to create about extra summer jobs from government sources and then challenge the american business community to meet that target so that we can create more than a million new summer jobs over and above what had been created before many many people have responded to that challenge and jerry is just a shining example of that which has been replicated in this room and around the country people who are going to do more than they otherwise would in the private sector to give young people a work experience and it is terribly important i want to emphasize that this summer jobs program is part of an overall commitment to increase the capacity of the american people from retraining defense workers who lose their jobs and other adults who need to acquire new skills to improving the transition from school to work for young people who don t go to college but do need at least two years of post high school training either on the job or in a community college or a vocational setting so that they can be competitive workers making it possible for more people to go on to college who do want to go all these things are part and parcel of a comprehensive plan it s also important as i said that we create more jobs the emergency jobs program that i asked the congress to adopt would create a half a million extra jobs over the next year and a half and that would reduce the unemployment rate by a half a percent it would also enable us to absorb more young people coming into the work force in jobs that otherwise will not be created it also will help a lot of cities and counties to invest in things that need to be done at the grass roots level projects long delayed water projects sewer projects park projects new industries and particularly in small and medium size communities a whole range of things that will improve the economy and improve the environment the summer jobs program is an important part of that because we have tried for the first time through the work of the labor department and the education department and through reaching out to people like you to make this more than just a one shot summer jobs program to integrate it with private sector efforts to hopefully replicate it in each coming summer to move these young people into further educational opportunities and to further job opportunities and to have a strong meaningful education component to these summer jobs something that the united states government has never fully emphasized before a lot of these young people as you well know because they come from difficult backgrounds because they go to school in difficult and challenging circumstances need extra help in building their basic skills in math and language reasoning and in other areas and a lot of educational studies show that young people who have difficulty in school often forget as much as percent of what they learn over the summer and then that has to be repeated the next year what we are trying to do here is to give people the opportunity to learn good work habits and to reinforce their learning skills and to put them together and then hopefully over the next couple of years if our entire program passes to give every school in this country the opportunity to have a good work and learning environment there will be more applied academics more opportunities for people to learn and work during the school year so that this will not simply be an isolated moment for these young folks but will be a part of building a whole new educational experience a whole new work experience and moving on a pathway to a better future the summer jobs programs are not designed to be make work jobs they re designed to make a future for the people holding the job and that s what they will do in the process they ll help to build local communities to strengthen local economies to solve local problems real jobs renovating housing repairing public buildings doing clerical work providing nursing assistance in hospitals supervising and training children at child care centers and learning all the way challenging young people to learn while they earn but letting them earn you know it s very difficult to make a case to people who have never seen opportunity on their own street that they should do this that or the other thing if there s no evidence of the opportunity that s at the end of the effort i have not been sparing in going for the last year and a half into places where it isn t exactly popular to say it and say i wanted to reform the welfare system i wanted to toughen child support i wanted to require people to work i was sick and tired of people being irresponsible in the use of guns on the streets and i wanted to change all that but if you re going to summon people to greater responsibility you have to reward them when they do the right thing with opportunity applause the young people we propose to put to work under our program will spend hours learning basic skills such as math reading writing either on the job in the classroom they will stretch their minds as well as work up a sweat they will have a sense of accomplishment it will literally be a summer challenge but a challenge that will take them into a different life so i want to ask all of you to support this effort even as i as your president support your effort at the end of the summer we will evaluate all the young people who participate we ll see whether they instead of falling behind over the summer academically as too many young people do they stayed even or moved ahead i suspect that they will this summer secretary reich and secretary riley and i will be visiting many of your communities we ll really try to learn from you which of these efforts are working what we should do next summer how we can build it in to what goes on during the school year how we can build in our job training efforts and the works that we do with your companies to make sense of this whole thing so that we maximize the impact of the taxpayer dollar and your private investments as well we want to honor the companies and the communities the business leaders and the young people who do the very best jobs this summer and again i want to say to all of you in private business who have matched our effort i thank you and to all of you who haven t and those across the country who may listen or learn about this event today i want to implore other private employers to stretch a little bit to give other young people a chance to work this summer i m telling you we cannot go through another years when we don t give these children anything to say yes to if we exhort them to do right we ve got to be able to reward them applause when the other speakers were talking i was sitting up here on the platform listening and reveling and they got talking about work and i got to thinking about all the different things i ve done to make a living in my life when i was i made a very foolish short term business investment i set up a comic book stand and sold two trunks full of comic books made more money than i had ever had in my life but if i had saved those trunks they d be worth today laughter that does not mean young people should not be entrepreneurial it just means that you can t foresee a generation ahead i have mowed yards and cleared land and built houses and worked in body shops and the parts departments of a car dealership and i ve done a lot of different things for a living some people say i got into politics to escape work laughter i learned something from every job i ever had but i grew up in a generation where i literally did not know a living soul without regard to race or income who wanted to work who didn t have a job i grew up in a generation when all you had to really say to people is get an education and you ll be all right you ll get a job and you ll make more money next year than you did this year now i live in a generation full of people most of whom don t make any more money in real dollars than they did years ago and they re working longer hours and they re paying more for the basics of life and we are now wondering whether we can create the jobs that these young people want now i want to close by reemphasizing these two things it doesn t matter what kind of economic policies this administration pursues or how much productivity increases there are in the private sector if young americans don t get a good education don t learn how to work and can t be productive those jobs will not be created in this country machines will do the work or the work will be done off shore by people who have the same skill levels and can work for a third or a fourth or a fifth the wages so nothing we can do economically will matter unless we build the skills and capacities of america s work force and anybody that pretends otherwise is just kidding on the other hand we need to be honest every wealthy country in the world including the united states is having difficulty creating jobs if i knew everything that needs to be done i d be glad to tell you and we could just call off the whole deliberations of congress and everything else i don t have all the answers but i know this doing nothing is not the answer applause and so the jobs program that i have presented to congress with the summer jobs with the money for the cities and the counties through the community development program with the infrastructure money is a small part of a big budget it is an attempt to engage in an experiment to see whether or not with the economy recovering in terms of corporate profit we can give a little boost to it give opportunities to young people create a half a million jobs and maybe get the engine going again most of the jobs in this program are going to be jobs in the private sector not government jobs even though it s government money and the lion s share of the work in rebuilding the american economy obviously will come from the private sector that s the kind of system we have and it works pretty well but this is the challenge we have so i ask all of you here today to support the summer jobs program to ask your friends and neighbors to support it to go back home and ask your employers to make a little extra effort to do what you can to help me pass the funds to create the jobs that the united states government should create this summer so that together we can have this partnership because more than anything else we have to give a future a future that our young people can believe in we need to send them a message that here in america if you study hard and work hard if you obey the law and contribute something to your community you will be rewarded by your country you can build a future from you own dreams that has always been the promise of america together that s what this summer of challenge needs to be a reaffirmation of the promise of america for so many young people to whom that promise has been an illusion we can make it a reality thank you very much applause end a m edt
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10,618 | talk.politics.misc | clinton press briefing by george stephanopoulos the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april press briefing by george stephanopoulos the briefing room p m edt mr stephanopoulos i guess i m just prepared to take questions today q george bob dole says that the clinton administration s policy on bosnia is a failure and that he wants the united states to take the lead in lifting the arms embargo so that the bosnian muslims can defend themselves mr stephanopoulos as you know president clinton has said that that suggestion is under active consideration obviously this is a tragic situation in bosnia and if the bosnian serbs don t come to the negotiating table in a constructive way we ll look seriously at pressing for lifting the arms embargo in the meantime we re going to continue to press for a tough sanctions resolution in the u n we re going to continue to work on the serbs to come to the negotiating table but the prospect of an arms embargo is something the president certainly will consider if the serbs don t come to the table q how much longer are you going to give them to come to the table george mr stephanopoulos we re working on that right now q it s been a long time q on february th the president mentioned the value added tax in ohio and when he was asked about it later by reporters he said quote that is a radical change in the tax system of the united states it s something i think we may have to look at in the years ahead questioned again about it later he says it is not something that is now under consideration if we start considering it i ll tell you it wasn t a trial balloon or anything he said i was just discussing the tax response to a question donna shalala quoted in usa today this morning quote certainly we re looking at a vat what s gone on q the same with alice rivlin this morning mr stephanopoulos the health care task force is reviewing a number of options they haven t made any decisions yet and as i have said from this podium time and time again we re not going to comment on decisions that haven t been made q but you have also said from this podium time and time again q wait a minute whoa nelly whoa q that that was not under consideration q yes clinton says it is not something that is now under consideration is that no longer true mr stephanopoulos i believe the working group as ms shalala says has looked at this prospect but no decisions have been made of any kind q well i know but he said he d tell us about it if it was ever under consideration i take it that now he is and he didn t tell us about it or mr stephanopoulos did he say if it was under consideration or if it was something to be proposed q if we start considering i ll tell you mr stephanopoulos if it s something to be proposed q if we start considering it i ll tell you that s a direct quote mr stephanopoulos the task force has looked at a number of different options they have not made any decisions yet the president has not made any decisions yet this is one of the proposals under consideration by the task force was to go out and cast as wide a net as possible for different ideas on how to reform the health care system they have cast a very wide net they have looked at hundreds of different proposals probably thousands of different proposals but the president has not made any decisions q well is the president aware of their consideration of this option mr stephanopoulos i don t know if he s been briefed on any preliminary conclusions or anything like that from the task force on this specific proposal of any kind i don t know that that s gotten to his level he started yesterday to go through with the task force a very wide range of decisions and i don t believe that that s been presented to him no q well he s not relying on the usa today to tell him what his task force is considering in the way of taxes mr stephanopoulos no he s going through it in a very deliberate fashion there are a number of decisions that have to be made i don t know that this proposal has reached that decision making point q if this is still under consideration that s a change at least from what we ve been told by dee dee i think about three weeks ago or so she said that is not an option talking about the had a big argument with somebody over this so i remember it specifically and said it not once but twice is that not the case mr stephanopoulos again i don t know if this has been presented to the president as something that is being looked at at some level in the task force q it was ruled it out though i mean unlike other options that you ve kept in the mix this one specifically was ruled out mr stephanopoulos again this is something that is being looked at but no decision has been made of any kind i mean it doesn t it s not necessarily material until you get to the decision making phase the working groups are looking at hundreds of different options q if it was ruled out before and it s not ruled out now then something has changed george yes no q when a guy says in february mr stephanopoulos well the working groups are looking at the widest possible range of options q so something s changed they weren t looking at it before they re looking at it now mr stephanopoulos well i don t know if the working groups have gotten to that point yet they are casting a very wide net q how was it possible that you and dee dee were able to sell definitively rule it out as an option previously and now are saying that in fact it is being considered mr stephanopoulos again the working groups are looking at a wide range of options they have not q do you deny that you and dee dee ruled it flatly ruled it out on several occasions in the past month mr stephanopoulos i don t deny that i mean those are the president s words those are very clear q subsequent to the president s words do you deny that within the last month you and dee dee have both publicly ruled it out mr stephanopoulos i don t know about the timing i think what we did was refer back to the president s words and say they stand q so don t they stand any longer q march th clinton said for the next four to five years it was ruled out mr stephanopoulos well those words the president did say that in february the working groups are on a separate track and as i said i don t believe q separate from the president mr stephanopoulos i don t believe this has been presented to the president q are they considering something that the president q has ruled out q has ruled out i mean will the president consider a vat tax mr stephanopoulos again the working groups have not presented this to the president they have looked at a wide range of options i suppose that if an argument is made he will clearly listen to it that does not mean he has decided to do it q can we put this another way in his answer in ohio he looked at the vat in terms of restructuring the whole tax system under those that was the circumstance that he said it might be considered at some future point is that no longer the case or is that the only way that he can see a vat emerging mr stephanopoulos i guess i m not sure exactly what you re asking q he talked about the vat in the context of a restructured tax system not as a specific way to finance health care for example q or anything else q or anything else q it was always in the context of substituting for other taxes at a time of a dramatic overhaul of the whole tax system mr stephanopoulos right q has that change too q is that still his view mr stephanopoulos i haven t spoken about those specific comments i think i can just go back to it are the working groups have they examined the possibility of a vat yes they have q certainly we re looking at a vat she said mr stephanopoulos they have examined the possibility of a vat has it been presented to the president has he made a decision no he has not q what kind of a deal do you have when you ve got the president s appointed task force obviously not oblivious to his ruling something out except in the context of some huge down the line reform goes ahead on its own and considers a tax which he has specifically ruled out in any context other than much later and then goes ahead and announces that that s what they re looking at is the president concerned about that sort of thing mr stephanopoulos i think that the president s concern is to make sure he gets the best health care proposal possible he s concerned with making sure that they have the most thorough process for examining all the possible alternatives all the different alternatives if a decision is made to go forward with something like that it s certainly something the president will explain and justify but no decision has been made along those lines q what does it mean exactly though when the president rules something out does it mean it can get back on the table later if a more persuasive argument is made mr stephanopoulos that s just that s indisputably true if you but at the same time he has not ruled it in he has not made a proposal q what makes him open to it now when he wasn t open to it before mr stephanopoulos he s certainly willing to listen to the argument q was he willing to listen to the argument for a short term tax this year and he wasn t willing to listen to it in chilicothe he s now open to it mr stephanopoulos the context of his comments was that it was not something he wanted to be clear that this is not something he was proposing not something he was floating q not something he was considering those are his words it s not something that s now under consideration if we start considering it i ll tell you you re now acknowledging are you not that it is under consideration and mr stephanopoulos i m acknowledging that the task force has studied this proposal i am also stating that the president has not made a decision on it q but the door is open for the president to reconsider including this as part of mr stephanopoulos obviously the working groups are looking at it again but the president has not made a decision q do you know if they will make a presentation on behalf of the vat to him mr stephanopoulos i don t know that i assume that if i don t know what stage they are it in proposing i don t know that they re going to make the conclusion that this is something they should present to him i know this is something the working groups are looking at q do you understand george that none of us are asking these questions in context of a decision that the president has made only about what the president is considering mr stephanopoulos i understand that and i am acknowledging that the working groups have examined the issue of a vat q and the president will consider it mr stephanopoulos i assume that he will consider the argument if it is presented to him q does that mean the president that working groups think that when the president says no he means maybe laughter mr stephanopoulos i think that means that the working groups are trying to do the most thorough job possible q george can i ask you another question about bosnia mr stephanopoulos sure laughter q no he wants us to stay on this q let s do gays in the military laughter q no he got out of that swamp q i think we ve gotten the bottom line on that vat reggie bartholomew your special ambassador in belgrade today said that if the serbs do not accept the agreement that has been worked out quote we will do our part to pursue the lifting of the arms embargo together with our allies that seems to go a bit further than what you ve just said mr stephanopoulos sounds almost exactly what i just said q well do you accept in other words you accept what reggie mr stephanopoulos well the president has said that this is something that s under consideration it is something he will consider if the current actions don t bring the serbs to the table q isn t there some kind of timetable here mr stephanopoulos yes there is a timetable there s going to be a vote on the u n resolution in about days q that s on sanctions that s on tightening the sanctions mr stephanopoulos that s right that s sanctions and we believe that that will ratchet up the pressure and we hope that that will bring the serbs to the table as you know mr bartholomew also met with mr churkin of russia and they are also working on ways to bring the serbs to the table we will continue to pressure them in many different ways and this is one possible option as well q the question is whether there s a timetable for consideration or a vote on a decision on lifting the arms embargo not the sanctions mr stephanopoulos the next vote in the u n is on sanctions as far as i know there are no votes scheduled on lifting the arms embargo but it is something that we have discussed both internally and with our allies q why did reggie bartholomew tell the serbs that the u s would do that what was the point of his telling them that mr stephanopoulos well clearly i mean this is something that s under consideration and this is something that we take quite seriously if they do not come to the table they should know the consequences of failing to come to the table q have they been given a deadline q warren christopher has been saying the same thing and it hasn t seemed to change the serbs behavior in the least why should the serbs take any heed of a threat to lift the arms embargo when so far everything that s been done has had no effect on the fighting in bosnia mr stephanopoulos i just don t accept the premise of your question it has had an effect the embargo is having an effect q what effect mr stephanopoulos if the serbians choose not to heed our warnings then they will face the consequences q what effect has it had in bosnia mr stephanopoulos well the effect that it has had on the serbians it has tightened up they are not getting their shipments through we can brief more fully q in bosnia george in bosnia what effect has it had mr stephanopoulos well it s hard to say if it s stopped the aggression to date that is why we re continuing to press for the serbians to stop but we believe that over time we will continue to weaken the serbs and that will have an effect i m not saying it s going to happen overnight it clearly hasn t happened overnight but we believe that over time the sanctions can weaken the serbs if it fails to work and if the serbs fail to come to the negotiating table we ll move forward with the embargo q isn t there a working deadline george of the th the same date as the u n the scheduled u n vote hasn t the united states said along with many of the other nato allies that if the serbs aren t willing to sign on to the peace accord by then that we ll seek haven t we said that we will seek mr stephanopoulos we ve said continually we re going to q but on that deadline mr stephanopoulos i don t have a specific date but we re going to move forward with the resolution the u n resolution by around that time and if that fails to take effect if that fails to bring the serbs to the table we will clearly consider other actions q isn t this awfully incremental mr stephanopoulos we re taking a step by step approach we re ratcheting up the pressure and we re going to continue to do that q is there a possibility george that by the time all these incremental steps are taken the serbs will have achieved their goals and then what s the purpose mr stephanopoulos i think the purpose is to get the serbs to stop the aggression we are pursuing that goal on many different fronts we are pursuing it through the u n we re pursuing it through direct talks we are pursuing it through tightening the sanctions and we will consider lifting the arms embargo we are turning the screws up on the serbs and we will continue to do that q but if the efforts have been unsuccessful in getting the serbs to stop the aggression how effective will any campaign be to have the serbs give back what they ve gained i mean once they re entrenched mr stephanopoulos i can t speculate on that we re going to continue to press for them to come to the table now we re going to continue to find ways to stop the aggression but i can t see into the future q george on the stimulus package house republicans say they re going to hold a series of town meetings on saturday to try and explain the details of your package they cite polls which show that the more people learn about it the less they like it what s your strategy to counter that mr stephanopoulos the strategy we have is the one we re going to continue as you saw the president today pointed up the very real benefits of the summer jobs program that this package will provide new summer jobs this summer for kids in inner cities and suburbs to do productive work we are also going to point out the benefits of the highway money the investments in highways we re going to point up the benefits of immunization we re going to point up the benefits of head start we are going to say that the republicans have a choice they can take action to create jobs or they can perpetuate the gridlock of the last four years q does it concern you though that the house now the house republicans are after you as well as the senate mr stephanopoulos the house republicans voted against it before they made a mistake then they re making a mistake now q george does it strike anybody in the administration that it s a bit strong to describe as the president did this morning the summer jobs program as quote a reaffirmation of a promise of america mr stephanopoulos not at all i think it s the promise of america to give kids a chance to reach their full potential q government funded jobs mr stephanopoulos to give people a chance to work absolutely that is the promise of america q i want to follow up on something i asked yesterday where does summer jobs where does that figure come from mr stephanopoulos that is on top of i did look at it there are currently summer jobs in the pipeline this will be on top of the so it will be a total of million q the would be created by the stimulus package mr stephanopoulos yes q where does that number come from because we ve been told all along that the stimulus package would create new jobs and according to panetta that breaks down to something like full time jobs and summer jobs mr stephanopoulos yes but the summer that s when you do their full time equivalence i mean individuals will receive jobs this summer when you calculate it for the full time job effect you have to do i don t know what the exact formula is q seven hundred thousand part time jobs mr stephanopoulos or q one to four because it s three months mr stephanopoulos thank you q can i follow up on that did the president misspeak this morning when he said that some of the government money for these summer jobs will pay for private for kids to work in the private sector mr stephanopoulos not necessarily i mean i think that there will be grants available that s one of the ways that you pay for the jobs at the same time he s also issued a challenge to the private sector to hire kids on their own as well q tax dollars for instance would pay for kids to work at time warner mr stephanopoulos i think the time warner is actually somebody coming forward and actually doing a grant that s going to be the bulk of it there could be isolated instances though where there would be grants to businesses q has the president spoken with any senate republicans this week mr stephanopoulos no but there s been a lot of contact with senate republicans in the white house q at a lower level but the president hasn t mr stephanopoulos the president has not no q getting any closer to get the votes mr stephanopoulos we re continuing to work on it q anybody leaning your way q on haiti the new york times seems to be reporting something of a breakthrough in aristide s attitude towards the coup leaders can you confirm that there has been this change and what impact will it have on the process and what did pezzullo have to say yesterday in his report mr stephanopoulos pezzullo did brief the principals i can t confirm what s actually happening in the talks i would leave that to the negotiators themselves but mr caputo has returned to haiti we have received a briefing here at the white house from ambassador pezzullo and as we have said time and time again we believe that assurances of security are important to a final resolution to a broader political settlement q george yesterday you offered some selective breakdowns of how the stimulus would impact some states and cities can we get a complete breakdown by state of how these jobs would be impacted mr stephanopoulos i think we have it for most states yes and i think we can get it out q could you make that generally available mr stephanopoulos i believe we can q and could you do it by the component of the stimulus in other words mr stephanopoulos i don t know if we can do i know that we can do it by summer jobs and other jobs i don t know how deeply it can be broken down but clearly we can break it down into summer jobs and other jobs q and can i follow up is this the information that jeff eller and the rest of the white house is using in the ads in the states mr stephanopoulos i don t know if they re ads but they re press releases q can you describe what those press releases contain mr stephanopoulos all we re doing is pointing out the benefits of this package to various states for instance i know that today senator dole is heading up to vermont and new hampshire and i would point out that the stimulus package the jobs package creates jobs in vermont it creates jobs in new hampshire and the people of those states should remind him that this is important q where are the releases going mr stephanopoulos they go to the states q to whom mr stephanopoulos we can get them it s no problem q can we get it q why don t you put them out here as well mr stephanopoulos i think we can q this afternoon would that be possible mr stephanopoulos i ll have to check i don t know but as soon as we can q are you focusing these press releases on states where there are moderate or pragmatic republican senators mr stephanopoulos i think we re trying to get as many as we can it s actually quite difficult to pull this together and we re doing our best we re putting them out as we get them q why are you so closely tracking senator dole s schedule mr stephanopoulos i was just following it q are press releases going along to states where he s visiting mr stephanopoulos i m not sure i think that probably there are press releases going to vermont laughter q will there be a man in a chicken suit waiting laughter q george as the president goes about the business of defending what s in his stimulus package he doesn t address what seems to be the republicans main point that you re funding it with deficit spending rather than if it s so important why not come up with the funding for it seems to be the republican argument and how do you answer that mr stephanopoulos what was answer is we are paying for it over time and if you look at our budget we pay for this package over time we believe right now the economy needs a jump start for jobs q you re not claiming are you that that doesn t add to the deficit this year mr stephanopoulos i m saying we re paying for it over time i didn t say that q i know that george but i mean from the beginning the question we do have annual budgets and things deficit spending will pay for that this year will it not mr stephanopoulos this year they clearly will but over time our budget fully pays for this program q what you re saying is that there are savings that would cover this if it were this year in future years mr stephanopoulos absolutely that s exactly what i said q i know that but there is going to be outstanding debt it will add to the national debt from this year mr stephanopoulos no we re reducing the deficit by billion billion over the next four years q you mean you re reducing it below what it would have been mr stephanopoulos exactly q in fact you re adding a very large amount to the national debt over the period of mr stephanopoulos but we re reducing it far more from what it would have been that s true q washington type reduction laughter q you re getting to be a grumpy old man q george has any decision been made about the white house or the president s participation in the gay rights march coming up in a week and a half mr stephanopoulos we re working on the president s schedule now i believe he s going to be at the senate democratic retreat in jamestown that weekend q will he address it by phone mr stephanopoulos i don t know about that it s a little far out but i believe he s going to be in the senate retreat q so will he have the leaders in a day or two before the speech mr stephanopoulos i don t know i would expect that at some point he would meet with the leaders of some of these groups i don t know the schedule on it though q will there be an aids czar appointed prior to or in conjunction with the event mr stephanopoulos i m just not sure q april nd is earth day what is the president going to do to mark that and is it the case that he is going to sign the biodiversity treaty that day mr stephanopoulos i know there s been some work on the biodiversity treaty i don t know about signing it that day but i would expect he ll have a statement on earth day or right around then q where is the work on the biodiversity treaty mr stephanopoulos i d have to check with katie mcginty i just know that there s been some work done but i don t know exactly what q when is earth day mr stephanopoulos the nd i think q why is it you know that he is going to have a statement on earth day but you don t know if he s going to have a statement on the gay rights march mr stephanopoulos i said i don t know if he s going to meet or when he s going to meet q do you have a statement on the gay rights march mr stephanopoulos i don t actually no i wouldn t be surprised if he did though q do you have some details on the miyazawa visit mr stephanopoulos it s a working visit on friday and the president is looking forward to that in discussing a number of issues including russian aid and the japanese stimulus package and the trade issues between the two countries q there was some expectations that a second aid package to russia was going to be unveiled at the g meeting and if i understand it hasn t happened why is that or what s the status on that mr stephanopoulos the g meeting is still going on and as you know secretaries bentsen and christopher have talked about the outlines of a possible package but we re going to continue to consult with congress and our g allies on that q we will not then make any kind of announcement during the two day meeting mr stephanopoulos the meeting s not over yet q is that when you re going to make one mr stephanopoulos i m not ruling out the possibility q the president s going to announce it tomorrow q bentsen said that q yes bentsen said it would be tomorrow q so did christopher mr stephanopoulos i d have to look at that but i believe it is more likely that the announcement will come out of tokyo q george has there been further consideration here about going to sending the president out to los angeles mr stephanopoulos i don t know that there s it s not something we ve ruled out we don t have a date set for it q george you all have a position or do you support immigration s plan to settle iraqi prisoners in the united states mr stephanopoulos it s the first i ve heard of it q george there was a report today about the q fortunately laughter q about the pace of appointments and says that president clinton is behind president bush in the number of positions that people have been nominated for are you going to speed up the pace of nominations or where do you stand with it mr stephanopoulos we filled of the president s appointments and it s broken down we have schedule c noncareer ses pas full time i m not sure what that means laughter pa full time and this is about the same it s about the same pace of president bush obviously as you move along farther once you each level of appointment actually has a multiplier effect and frees up far more appointments so we expect the process to speed up but we re at the pace of bush obviously we d like to get these done as quickly as possible i would point out that the fbi background checks and the background check is far more comprehensive and it takes more time than our predecessors and that is part of the holdup but we re working on it q is that because of nannygate mr stephanopoulos i think that s an awful big part of it yes q in the story this morning you were at approximately the same pace as bush in making appointments but way behind in winning confirmations mr stephanopoulos that s where the background checks comes into play that s the problem q that s the background checks problem because i mean you have a democratic senate mr stephanopoulos no that s not the you make the appointments and then it takes quite a bit of time to fill out all the forms and have the background checks done that s exactly where the problem is q what s the president doing this afternoon and what s on the plan for tomorrow mr stephanopoulos he s got some meetings just office meetings this afternoon for the most part on a variety of issues that probably a half dozen different issues and then he ll be tomorrow we ll have an event probably again focused on the stimulus and jobs package out of here at the white house and friday is the miyazawa meeting q will you be releasing his tax return tomorrow george mr stephanopoulos either tomorrow or friday q is there going to be a pre briefing regarding the japanese prime minister s visit tomorrow mr stephanopoulos i don t know about tomorrow but we ll probably get something done as we usually do for these visits q was reverend jackson here this morning and do you know what that was about mr stephanopoulos he was here he met with a group of us here at the white house including mack mclarty q who q reverend jackson mr stephanopoulos reverend jackson mack mclarty me gene sperling bruce reed jeff watson mark gearan q talking about haiti mr stephanopoulos we talked about general urban policy he is about to go to los angeles he was just back from mississippi where we had a good victory last night and he s going on to los angeles q did he request the meeting mr stephanopoulos actually no he s in continual contact with the president he had written a letter on a variety of issues and so we asked him to come in and talk about it q george dole is having a fundraiser for jeffords tonight in vermont have you guys been in contact with jeffords at all on this mr stephanopoulos i think there s been some contact sure q can you tell us about the contacts mr stephanopoulos i m not sure q do you know who contacted him or what was said mr stephanopoulos i know that howard paster talked to him and they just has a general talk about the package q and did he express his support for it now or is he mr stephanopoulos i can t divulge the details of the conversation but there have been conversations q the l a times is reporting that abortion elective abortions is likely to be included in the basic health care package is this something the president is considering mr stephanopoulos again q along with the vat laughter mr stephanopoulos it s certainly something that s been looked at but no decisions have been made q what was the question mr stephanopoulos the l a times story on whether abortions will be covered by the president s health plan q did the president in his meeting did you in your meeting with reverend jackson ask his advice solicit his advice about what kind of stance the white house should take in the wake of the verdict in l a mr stephanopoulos well we certainly talked about the situation in los angeles and the long term prospects for economic development and other issues q for instance did you discuss whether it would be helpful for the president to go there or not mr stephanopoulos well we discussed a wide range of issues related to los angeles that was certainly one of them q letting you perhaps go out on the way you came in i need to go back to bosnia just for a second and ask mr stephanopoulos oh good q your reaction to margaret thatcher s comments that you re just sitting by and watching a massacre mr stephanopoulos well we ve been pushing very hard on a number of fronts for more aggressive action we will continue to do that q can you tell us if you ve made any progress in your talks on the stimulus package getting a compromise i mean we don t have any feel except talks are ongoing have you talked to like people or mr stephanopoulos i don t know the numbers we ve talked to several people and we ve had wide ranging sessions q anyone leaning your way mr stephanopoulos i can t get into that we re just going to keep working through tuesday the press thank you end p m edt
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10,619 | talk.politics.misc | re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article c ij h l news iastate edu jrbeach iastate edu jeffry r beach writes in article apr gordian com mike gordian com michael a thomas writes in article c huh news iastate edu jrbeach iastate edu jeffry r beach writes think about it shouldn t all drugs then be legalized it would lower the cost and definitely make them safer to use yes i don t think we want to start using these criterion to determine legality why not where do they get these people what pray tell does this mean just who exactly is they you mean they as in people who do not blindly swallow every piece of propoganda they are given or they as in nokd not our kind dear or they as in an appeal to some audience that is supposed to implicitly know and understand i really don t want to waste time in here to do battle about the legalization of drugs if you really want to we can get into it and prove just how idiotic that idea is read i do not know what the fuck i m talking about and am not eager to make a fool of myself my point was that it is pretty stupid to justify legalizing something just because it will be safer and cheaper from a pragmatic standpoint there certainly is some justification if it is a vice people will commit anyway shall we criminalize alcohol again if the re legalization for alcohol were done from anything other than the pragmatic standpoint i d be happy to hear about it the fact is that it wasn t a few more ideas to hold to these criterion prostitution the killing of all funny farm patients aids victims elderly unemployed prisioners etc this would surely make my taxes decrease only the first one make any sense there is nothing to legalize about all the rest just in case you haven t made the connection which i expect you haven t the connecting theme in this thread is a persons autonomy over their life and body vice statutes serve only to make it more expensive for the rich and more dangerous for the poor as tim so eloquently put it people will however take autonomy over their lives regardless of what the government says and why pray tell is aids victim in snear quotes are you of the revisionist sort that thinks there is no such thing as the aids plauge or do they just deserve it michael thomas mike gordian com i don t think bambi eyes will get you that flame thrower hobbes to calvin usnail irvine ave santa ana heights ca pabell fax
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10,620 | talk.politics.misc | clinton president s public schedule the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release march public events on the president s schedule for thursday april am est the president meets with leadership of law enforcement organizations the rose garden open press am edt the president meets with the national ambassador for the march of dimes birth defects foundation the oval office tv pool open still photo writing pool am edt the president meets with mosaic minstrels of new york ny the rose garden open photo writing pool am edt the president meets with the berwick pa high school bulldogs aaa state football champions the south lawn open photo writing pool upcoming events on the president s schedule april the president meets with japanese prime minister miyazawa the white house april president clinton meets with president amato of italy the white house
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10,621 | talk.politics.misc | nlns fascism with a friendly face from new liberation news service nlns subject nlns fascism with a friendly face written pm apr by nlns igc apc org in igc nlns news nlns packet fascism with a friendly face does rush limbaugh remind you of anyone daevid bornhuetter machen the madison edge the main difference between adolf hitler and rush limbaugh is that hitler was original and showed initiative mort sahl on the tom snyder radio show abc radio network october nlns believe it or not i was planning this comparative review of mein kampf and limbaugh s transcribed rant the way things ought to be before sahl issued his comparative review as usual sahl s was independent and sharp as a scalpel my effort can only dream of comparing favorably to mort s at least it has a fairly popular orginating premise everyone i d mention the idea to thought it was either divinely inspired or at least past due for delivery those reactions are based on parallels that should be obvious to the most peripheral observer of the acts of those false prophets both are noted for their galvanizing oratorical skills which they both used with passion to generate a political cult of massive numerical proportions in fact limbaugh claims to have an audience of just over million almost identical to the number of votes cast for hitler in the april german election both used a myopic social perspective to build the cult and enthusiastically amputated facts from the record to fabricate their ideological quilt the last point is glaringly documented by passages in the opening pages of both books hitler s example is when on page he claims the german nationalist terrorist leo schlageter he bombed part of a railway line between dusseldorf and duisburg being caught in the act in was betrayed to france by a representative of his government when there has never been any factual foundation for such a statement in fact the governments of both the reich and prussia as well as the vatican actively intervened to save him from execution and almost succeeded limbaugh follows suit by making the hysterically sarcastic claim in his introduction that in a school or during a commencement ceremony or many other public places god is unconstitutional of course it s not god but the official imposition of particular concepts of god against an individual s will that s unconstitutional but limbaugh is too gleeful in his talent for distortion to want you to know that of course one would assume that by comparing the two books my main point would be that the way things ought to be is the modern american mein kampf not really at the time of the first german version of mein kampf hitler was just four months out of prison june and trying to reorganize the nazis he used the book to build his dozen million followers limbaugh on the other hand came up with his book after building his dozen million twelve million went a longer way in weimar germany that it does in the republicrat united states thus the more accurate parallels would be that limbaugh s daily three hour radio show is the american mein kampf the primary propoganda tool used to pump up the angry volume and that the way things ought to be is actually the american triumph of the will a translation of the same fascist message into a different medium also the printed word was the more important medium in weimar germany since radio was still being thought of by impoverished germans as a medium of luxury in today on the other hand americans are more likely to spend a few seconds to tune a radio dial at no monetary charge than drop for pages of transcripts of the same words but as mort sahl also observed on the radio the other night some cloutmeister of the radical right wants limbaugh to be a focal point of their propoganda and remember sahl is an al haig conservative these days mort might not know exactly who rush s equivalent of rodolf hess is the book itself suggests ed mclaughlin the former president of abc radio and now limbaugh s partner in efm media the radio program s production company but mort himself is a veteran of the talk show having hosted them in new york washington and los angeles he knows what evil lurks in the hearts of major market media men he knows that limbaugh could not have collected his audience had not the opportunity been placed on a silver platter and handed to him limbaugh earns his money just as honestly as al capone did it s almost worthy of a rico indictment on questions of social issues there is an overabundance of material in the limbaugh book that seems to echo hitler s venom for example on their own qualifications to control society hitler out of the host of sometimes millions of people who individually more or less clearly and distinctly guess the truth partly perhaps understand it one man author s emphasis must step forward in order to form with apodeictic force out of the wavering world of imagination of the great masses granite principles and to take up the fight for their sole correctness until out of the playing waves of a free world of thought a brazen rock of uniform combination of form and will arises page limbaugh who needs the media when they ve got me the show is devoted exclusively to what i think the phrase with half my brain tied behind my back to make it even denotes the egress of mental aptitude i require to engage and demolish liberals and others who disagree with me it might take four or five years but i m convinced the media will slowly and reluctantly come around to my way of thinking kicking and screaming all the way pages and respectively on religion as the basis of a nation hitler in this world human culture and civilization are inseperably bound up with the existence of the aryan his dying off or his decline would again lower upon this earth the dark veils of a time without culture he who dares to lay hand upon the highest image of the lord sins against the benevolent creator of this miracle and helps in the expulsion from paradise page limbaugh america was founded as a judeo christian country but our intellectual and political elites are often either hostile or ambivalent toward religion people for whom belief in god is at best a charming superstition have managed to ban prayer from the public schools for the last thirty years is it only a coincidence that the quality of american education has declined ever since pages on popular culture as a reason for social collapse hitler the fight against the poisoning of the soul has to set in one has only to look at the menus of our movie houses vaudevilles and theatres and one can hardly deny that this is not the right kind of food theatre art literature movies the press billposters and window displays must be cleaned of the symptoms of a rotting world and put into the service of a moral idea of state and culture pages and limbaugh today hollywood is in trouble the reason is that hollywood has forgotten who its audience is they make fun of people who believe in god they ridicule the traditional family heterosexuality and monagamy they disparage american heroes page on the news meida hitler the activity of the so called liberal press was the work of gravediggers for the german people and the german reich one can pass by in silence the marxist papers of lies it s task is only to break the people s folkish and national spine in order to make it ripe for the yoke of slavery of international capital and its masters the jews page limbaugh elements of the media have jumped on the bandwagon of leftist causes the cynical journalist of the past has been replaced in many cases by an enthusiastic cheerleader for causes during the gulf war cnn correspondent bernard shaw said cnn is a global network we can t take sides cant take sides if they don t realize that their freedom lies in the united states of america and that therefore they should defend this nation they are hopelessly misguided and may i suggest flirting with megalomania pages and to continue these comparative excerpts is certainly possible but ultimately too depressing to take in one reading after putting these books down there is one undeniable fact that haunts me in the s adolf hitler fed depressed and frightened germans the opiate of hatred of those around them in turn it allowed germans to hand their collective national power to the nazis in the s rush limbaugh is doing the very same thing distributing hatred to depressed and frightened americans in turn it is helping the american radical right to maintain its power base as the year nightmare of the reagan bush era comes to an end hoping to rebuild it into their hopes for the fascist states of america and if limbaugh is not as repellant a hitler it is only because the radical right utilizes limbaugh as its own gateway opiate one can only wonder what the ultimate drug is they plan to hook america on the madison edge can be reached at po box madison wi
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10,622 | talk.politics.misc | re is la burning yet in article master cna tek com mikeq freddy cna tek com writes i hear the jury reached a verdict where did you hear this i seem to have missed it is la burning yet no will l a burn no regardless of the verdict i m not near a radio count your blessings the views expressed herein are theodore a kaldis my own only do you seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe that a major university rutgers remus rutgers edu kaldis as this would hold such views
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10,623 | talk.politics.misc | clinton war powers resolution on bosnia the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april text of a letter from the president to the speaker of the house of representatives and the president pro tempore of the senate april dear mr speaker dear mr president as part of my continuing effort to keep the congress fully informed i am providing this report consistent with section of the war powers resolution to advise you of actions that i have ordered in support of the united nations efforts in bosnia herzegovina beginning with u n security council resolution of september the united nations has been actively addressing the crisis in the former yugoslavia the security council acted in resolution to establish a ban on all unauthorized military flights over bosnia herzegovina there have however been blatant violations of the ban and villages in bosnia have been bombed in response to these violations the security council decided in resolution of march to extend the ban to all unauthorized flights over bosnia herzegovina and to authorize member states acting nationally or through regional organi zations to take all necessary measures to ensure compliance nato s north atlantic council nac agreed to provide nato air enforcement for the no fly zone the u n secretary general was notified of nato s decision to proceed with operation deny flight and an activation order was delivered to participating allies the united states actively supported these decisions at my direction the joint chiefs of staff sent an execute order to all u s forces participating in the nato force for the conduct of phased air operations to prevent flights not authorized by the united nations over bosnia herzegovina the u s forces initially assigned to this operation consist of f and f a fighter aircraft and supporting tanker aircraft these aircraft commenced enforcement operations at a m e d t on april the fighter aircraft are equipped for combat to accomplish their mission and for self defense nato has positioned forces and has established combat air patrol cap stations within the control of airborne early warning aew aircraft the u s cap aircraft will normally operate from bases in italy and from an aircraft carrier in the adriatic sea unauthorized aircraft entering or approaching the no fly zone will be identified interrogated intercepted escorted monitored and turned away in that order if these steps do not result in compliance with the no fly zone such aircraft may be engaged on the basis of proper authorization by nato military authorities and in accordance with the approved more over rules of engagement although we do not expect such action will be necessary the commander of unprofor the united nations protection force currently operating in bosnia herzegovina was consulted to ensure that his concerns for his force were fully considered before the rules of engagement were approved it is not possible to predict at this time how long such operations will be necessary i have directed u s armed forces to participate in these operations pursuant to my constitutional authority as commander in chief i am grateful for the con tinuing support that the congress has given to this effort and i look forward to continued cooperation as we move forward toward attainment of our goals in this region sincerely william j clinton
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10,624 | talk.politics.misc | re temper tantrums from the s in article apr pony ingres com garrett ingres com writes in article philc ht t gwa netcom com phil netcom com phil ronzone writes along with normalized relations with the prc normalizing relations with cambodia you must be joking we sponsored the overthrow of the cambodian government after repeated failed attempts of course prc people s republic of china cambodia go play dave griffith information resources university of chicago department of surgery dave alex bsd uchicago edu brain damage was what we were after the chromosome damage was just gravy
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10,625 | talk.politics.misc | re to be or not to be a disaster in article philc ht h netcom com phil netcom com phil ronzone writes not at all you are apparently just another member of the religious left show me all these environmental disasters most of them aren t and the natural disasters we have had individually far outweigh the man made ones most of your so called disasters love canal times beach tmi aren t disasters at all so look if you want to worship trees or owls or snails or whatever fine do so but don t try to push the scaredness of your religious off onto me if you want to see environmental disasters go to eastern europe or some parts of the fsu former soviet union this is because they had no environmental protection laws and were trying to increase productivity at any expense to justify their political systems luckily for us some of our politicians with vision passed some environmental laws that isn t to say that they shouldn t be modified but all i ever hear from you is that the environmental laws were dreamed up by a bunch of left wing tree huggers intent on putting us back on horseback yes there are some of those but a lot of us simply want to procede with caution john viveiros jviv chevron com chevron usa standard disclaimer applies midland tx netnews userid for nntpserver chevron com who said no news is good news
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10,626 | talk.politics.misc | re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article slagle apr sgi msd lmsc lockheed com slagle lmsc lockheed com writes in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes in article apr cbnewse cb att com doctor cbnewse cb att com patrick b hailey writes the point is that this law protects no one but the established car dealers or people with enough money to start a fairly big operation all at once protecting these folks from competition protects the rest of us from low prices and high quality an excellent point but you seem to be missing a more subtle point it is not the government that should be the recipient of your displeasure but the established business interests that influence and direct government action in this case it is the government that is preventing entry to the market the desire of those running established businesses to prevent or restrict the entry of competitors is an understandable though generally unpleasant human failing but without a means to act on this desire without a government with sufficient power to restrict the options of the potential competitor the anti competitive desire remains just an unpleasant wish the government is the linchpin so we seek to disengage it so we don t get the shaft once again mark you don t specify the means through which the government is to be prevented from becoming the tool of business interests as a left wing big government conventional liberal i m just as willing as you are to vote against anti competitive regulations that favor auto dealers but what i hear from libertarians is a desire to limit incumbents terms to weaken government by eliminating its power to enforce antitrust laws and a desire to eliminate legislator s pay each strikes me as a particularly ineffective way to insure that auto dealers and other special interests cannot influence public policy in fact they seem clearly designed to accomplish the opposite jsh mark steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls t r hofferbert ma bell
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10,627 | talk.politics.misc | re the role of the national news media in inflaming passions in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes i m sick of it this continual effort to inflame the passions of americans by playing every trial as completely sexist racist or gay bashing when the realities are seldom this simple this is what happens when a society becomes tied up in ideologies i have come to the conclusion that the tv stations here in la want a riot to happen when the verdict comes in in a not so subtle way they are preparing their audience for the worst and even going so far as to want something to happen for their viewers with all their commercials and their we are ready for anything so watch us messages carlos i as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race abraham lincoln ames elroy jpl devvax beowulf pituco carlos
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10,628 | talk.politics.misc | re gore throws out the first ball and media coverage of it in article apr hemlock cray com rja mahogany cray com russ anderson writes in article c e ja ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com mark wilson writes this past thursday vp gore threw out the first ball at the home opener for the atlanta braves according to the news reports he was quite loudly booed no dr norman these were not your typical beer swilling red necks personally i wouldn t have paid any more attention to the incident except that the evening news when describing the event went on to comment that being booed was nothing unusual since it was normal for audiences to boo at this point since the celebrity was delaying the start of the game what a bunch of crock i have never heard of any incident in which the thrower of the ceremonial ball has been booed before dan quayle got roundly booed in milwaulkee last year i was listening on the radio this was the game that quayle told the brewers players that he would like to see them play the orioles in the alcs it s come to this has it defending al gore by comparing him to dan quayle i d say that about says it all back to the pit with ye back to alt fan dan quayle begone paul havemann internet paul hsh com they re not just opinions they re caffeine for the brain up to milligrams per cynical observation recommended minimum daily requirement mg keep reading
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10,629 | talk.politics.misc | re clinton president to nominate carter for nuclear security post in article qgbljinnn o life ai mit edu clinton hq campaign org clinton gore writes the white house office of the president for immediate release april president to nominate carter for nuclear security no no no bill please don t nominate anyone who pronounces it noo q lar jimmy always used to drive everyone nuts when he did that and don t let amy anywhere near and washington dc the president announced today that he intends to nominate ashton carter the director of harvard s center for science and international affairs to be assistant secretary of defense for nuclear security and counter proliferation emily litella voice never mind paul havemann internet paul hsh com they re not just opinions they re caffeine for the brain up to milligrams per cynical observation recommended minimum daily requirement mg keep reading
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10,630 | talk.politics.misc | re employment was re why not concentrate on child molesters in article c hf r cg ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com mark wilson writes in c fg t at exnet co uk sys exnet co uk xavier gallagher writes i have to disagree you do not take your logic far enough true man did not invent the need for food shelter warmth and the ilk but man did invent the property laws and the laws of trespass i guess xavier has never heard of territoriality in animals many animals especially preditors will stake out a territory and chase of any members of the same species that tries to invade their territory yes i have wasn t there a case of a single lion ruling all the land from south africa up to egypt across to the congo if my memory serves me correctly there was enough game to feed some or more lions but he wouldn t let the other lions hunt as he wanted it all himself he died of a heart attack brought on by being overweight good thing too as he had designs on europe america north and south and the falkland islands mark wilson atlantaga ncr com xavier
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10,631 | talk.politics.misc | re af ats red army fraction raf communique in article c vbm gs ncoast org cmort ncoast org christopher morton writes as quoted from c vctb j h dscomsa desy de by hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker isn t it wonderfull the way people can make the sadistic and indescriminate murder of the bader meinhof gang sound like altruism gee phil i d remember where you are and that these people are monitoring the net i d also remember that they have about as much sense of humor as ed damn it isn t big brother after all and all this time i thought that all those revolutionaries while blowing things up and killing the odd innocent person in the process really did love all us proles cause everybody knows that dialectical materialism will save you even if it has to get you killed first what a fool i ve been
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10,632 | talk.politics.misc | re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article apr tijc uucp pjs tijc uucp paul schmidt writes steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes as noted in another thread limiting govt the problem libertarians face is insuring that the limited government they seek does not become the tool of private interests to pursue their own agenda believe it or not we liberals are frequently as opposed to anti competitive measures as you conservatives we don t believe however that competition will necessarily be protected by the actions of business interests in a free market after all in the example you cite it was not liberals that pressed for such regulations but good staunch conservative businessmen as adam smith so eloquently demonstrated the free market is not something that capitalists seek to protect when they can profit from its elimination the same point was made by marx a point of agreement between the two theorists that should tell us something i do not want the government to become a tool of private interests limited government cannot insure that private interests will not use this government for their own agenda agreed but this is not a failure of libertarianism it is the fact that utopia is not an option there is no single system where everything is perfect it is a failure of libertarianism if the ideology does not provide any reasonable way to restrain such actions other than utopian dreams just as marxism fails to specify how pure communism is to be achieved and the state is to wither away libertarians frequently fail to show how weakening the power of the state will result in improvement in the human condition so it is wise to look for the best solution if you compare countries to see which ones people would rather live in which ones have less starvation hunger poverty and misery you will find that they have a more limitted government than countries with alot of poverty misery and suffering no limitted government cannot insure anything but it sure is better than the alternative big government this is a strawman argument and fails on several grounds in this case limited and big government are not defined i would point out that lebanon somalia and the former yugoslavia are by some definitions nations with limited government while the us canada and nations in western europe where people would rather live are often pointed out as nations with big government from a libertarian point of view the argument is not between those who want limited government and those who want unlimited government it is between those who believe government regulation in a capitalist economy serves worthwhile ends and those who believe such regulation is neither desirable on empirical grounds nor justifiable on ideological grounds jsh paul schmidt advocates for self government davy crockett chapter president steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls t r hofferbert ma bell
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10,633 | talk.politics.misc | re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article apr gordian com mike gordian com michael a thomas writes in article c huh news iastate edu jrbeach iastate edu jeffry r beach writes think about it shouldn t all drugs then be legalized it would lower the cost and definitely make them safer to use yes i don t think we want to start using these criterion to determine legality why not where do they get these people i really don t want to waste time in here to do battle about the legalization of drugs if you really want to we can get into it and prove just how idiotic that idea is you think that you all have it bad here at good ol southwest missouri state u we have parties running for student body president there s the token sorority fraternity faces and then there s the president and vice president of norml they campaigned by handing out condoms and listing their qualifications as i listen really well it makes me sick to have a party established on many of the things that are ruining this country like they are i think i ll run next year darin j keener dak s vma smsu edu pc the idea that catering to splinter groups is the way to go
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10,634 | talk.politics.misc | re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article c huh news iastate edu jrbeach iastate edu jeffry r beach writes i would be upset that although abortions would continue they would be a lot more expensive for the rich and a lot less safe for the poor so now things are supposed to be legal just to keep their cost down and the safety factor high in the case of victimless crimes yes i think so think about it if i rob or beat up or rape or kill someone it s very clear to anyone not a sociopath that i ve done something immoral on the other hand if i smoke grass or have sex with a consenting adult in a manner illegal in that state the morality or immorality of that act is merely a lifestyle choice it doesn t clearly hurt anyone else imo if such an act doesn t hurt another person it should not be interfered with think about it shouldn t all drugs then be legalized it would lower the cost and definitely make them safer to use i think so and i don t use drugs outside of the legal ones alcohol and coffee don
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10,635 | talk.politics.misc | polls was re top ten excuses for slick willie s record setting disapproval rati in article emoryu cc emory edu libwca emory edu bill anderson writes according to a cnn poll to key reason for clinton s low approval rating is people are angry about him not moving fast enough on gays in the military i just burst out laughing when i heard this what planet do these cnn people live on anyway jason c austin j c austin larc nasa gov dunno man that sounds pretty damned unlikely to me too although it s certainly one of the reasons i m pissed off at him maybe the sample was taken entirely from my fellow memebers of the cultural elite jason can you quote some of these poll questions thanks bill v i ve never seen cnn give out the poll questions on the air if you sent them a letter asking for them you might get them here s my guess of how part of a session might look question do you approve of clinton s performance answer no questions do you disapprove due to the gays in the military issue answer yes conclusion clinton has a low approval rating because he s not moving fast enough on gays in the military i think any group truly dedicated to reporting the news would not use manufactured news like polls jason
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10,636 | talk.politics.misc | re stop the sexularhumanistoppression former my beloved damn ferigner s be taken over in article apr reg triumf ca vincent reg triumf ca pete writes in article c hwa ebp news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvine writes or fight was about a territorial dispute with british canada again old stuff uh not quite the boundary dispute is still unresolved and canadian and us coast guard vessels regularly if infrequently detain each other s fish boats in the disputed waters off dixon entrance the only reason you don t hear more about it is that it s in neither country s interest to aggravate the quarrel that doesn t mean that either country is prepared to back down especially the local political representatives whose constituents are all fishermen fishing rights are disputed between nations no matter how friendly there is always fishing disputes what i was getting at was the or fight slogan is old stuff dealing with the land dispute no one is saying or fight about fishing rights the territorial dispute about the oregon territory we called it is long resolved fishing rights small potatoes personal opinions why brent irvine yes what did you think irvine uxh cso uiuc edu they were
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10,637 | talk.politics.misc | the state of justice a judge denied gm s new trial motion even though gm says it has two new witnesses that said the occupant of the truck was dead from the impact not from the fire thoughts it s kind of scary when you realize that judges are going to start denying new trials even when new evidence that contradicts the facts that led to the previous ruling appear or has the judge decided that the new witnesses are not to be believed shouldn t that be up to a jury and what about members of the previous jury parading through the talk shows proclaiming their obvious bias against gm shouldn t that be enough for a judge to through out the old verdict and call for a new trial whatever happened to jurors having to be objective brett there s nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction sean o casey in the white plague by frank herbert
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10,638 | talk.politics.misc | re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article c ij h l news iastate edu jrbeach iastate edu jeffry r beach writes in article apr gordian com mike gordian com michael a thomas writes in article c huh news iastate edu jrbeach iastate edu jeffry r beach writes in article qd sninnr elroy jpl nasa gov fogarty sir c jpl nasa gov tim fogarty writes i would be upset that although abortions would continue they would be a lot more expensive for the rich and a lot less safe for the poor so now things are supposed to be legal just to keep their cost down and the safety factor high think about it shouldn t all drugs then be legalized it would lower the cost and definitely make them safer to use yes i don t think we want to start using these criterion to determine legality why not where do they get these people i really don t want to waste time in here to do battle about the legalization of drugs if you really want to we can get into it and prove just how idiotic that idea is go for it i have yet to see anybody justify the prohibition on drugs and the ensuing war on drugs in the world of politics here on usenet it is you that is crazy anybody who gives the matter any thought beyond reading headlines cannot justify this atrocity this all out war on individual rights just try to justify the war on drugs i dare you my point was that it is pretty stupid to justify legalizing something just because it will be safer and cheaper once again in chorus why is this stupid a few more ideas to hold to these criterion prostitution the killing of all funny farm patients aids victims elderly unemployed prisioners etc this would surely make my taxes decrease the above paragraph is gibberish that all i can make of it steve thomas steveth rossinc com
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10,639 | talk.politics.misc | re nc vs hunt marine gay bashing in wilmington nc verdict in article c hfr cpa ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com mark wilson writes so you feel that the defendents should have been convicted regardless of the evidence now that would truely be a sad day for civil rights i don t know about everybody else but to me they should have been convicted because of the evidence which in my mind was quite sufficient tom
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10,640 | talk.politics.misc | re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes in article slagle apr sgi msd lmsc lockheed com slagle lmsc lockheed com writes it is the government that is preventing entry to the market the desire of those running established businesses to prevent or restrict the entry of competitors is an understandable though generally unpleasant human failing but without a means to act on this desire without a government with sufficient power to restrict the options of the potential competitor the anti competitive desire remains just an unpleasant wish the government is the linchpin so we seek to disengage it so we don t get the shaft once again mark you don t specify the means through which the government is to be prevented from becoming the tool of business interests as a left wing big government conventional liberal i m just as willing as you are to vote against anti competitive regulations that favor auto dealers but what i hear from libertarians is a desire to limit incumbents terms to weaken government by eliminating its power to enforce antitrust laws and a desire to eliminate legislator s pay each strikes me as a particularly ineffective way to insure that auto dealers and other special interests cannot influence public policy in fact they seem clearly designed to accomplish the opposite this is similar to my saying that clinton s timber summit does little to fix the health care problem look at the whole picture not just randomly picked libertarian positions if government is not allowed to use non initiated force to achieve its goals than no special interest can influence the government to use non initiated force on their behalf the means to reaching such a restricted government is another topic which i ll address briefly it certainly won t happen until libertarianism is the dominate philosophy what means do we have to make libertarianism the dominate philosophy statists run the education monopoly so we have to be creative the advocates for self government reports of their seminar participants embrace libertarianism that s the best means i ve seen yet we should lobby for compulsory seminar attendance in jest roger collins it s amazing to me that governments around the world will try every aspect of government control before as a final last resort after everything else fails they will try individual liberty andre marrou libertarian candidate for president
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10,641 | talk.politics.misc | re national sales tax the movie atboyken iastate edu aaron t boyken writes here s a question what if instead of a true vat the federal government imposed a sales tax of say the tax would only be paid on retail sales thus not building up at all levels of production costs that are just passed on to consumers anyway and would only go to reducing the deficit i know that this would never happen but it seems a lot more palettable than a vat canada s gst is collected as a sales tax and is considered a vat funnily the previous hidden wholesale tax that it replaces was never referred to as a tax or people never paid mind to it thus the uproar when it was brought up front as the gst one party has actually campaigned on hiding the tax again the stated intent of the tories was to use the gst to write down our deficit unfortunately their legislation didn t include any mechanism for disbursing the collected funds in such a manner and the money is now sitting in escrow i don t know what is involved in releasing the funds but one dilemna is that the tories are not fiscal conservatives themselves though while taxing and spending they ve made moves to apply the breaks to a runaway locomotive by the end of this time the end of their second term years while they do have chances of getting a third term catching up in the polls to their more moderate slightly leftish pro business rivals the liberals as in euro uk the tories heir apparent for the leaders mantle has been termed a clone of hillary clinton gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
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10,642 | talk.politics.misc | re representation of territories was re the lunch in article cmi b w w keys lonestar org cwinemil keys lonestar org chris winemiller writes does anyone have knowledge about how this was handled in the past such as with the louisiana territory or the northwest territory those areas became states puerto rico has the population needed to become a state but the ethnic mix there is such that puerto rico will probably never become a state i say we cut them loose if they don t want to become a state we shouldn t continue to subsidize their existence john f haugh ii pgp s cs utexas edu rpp jfh ma bell dof s jfh rpp cactus org look up ponzi scheme in a good dictionary it will have a picture of joe liberal handout right next to it stop federal spending cut the deficit
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10,643 | talk.politics.misc | re pro abortion feminist leader endorses trashing of free speech rights in article c mmep n panix com gcf panix com gordon fitch writes dsh eceyv ncsu edu doug holtsinger writes arrested for defying judge s order at abortion protest rally the miami herald april circuit judge robert mcgregor s order prohibits anti abortion pickets within feet of the property line of aware woman center for choice even across the street they may not display pictures of dead fetuses or sing or chant loud enough to be heard by patients inside the clinic several years ago justice william o douglas who was about as libertarian as you can get about free speech and similar issues wrote a majority opinion in which the supreme court turned down an appeal by a group of people who had been prohibited from demonstrating in front of their landlord s home do you have a cite for the case you don t give enough information to be able to compare the two situations if the demonstrators had been blaring loud rock music into the landlord s home all day and night then i could see how the opinion would be justified but this court order had prohibited abortion protesters from displaying pictures of dead fetuses which doesn t disrupt the privacy of anyone inside the clinic he pointed out that people have a right to be free from speech perhaps in the privacy of their homes but not on public property did the korean grocery store owner in new york city have a right to be free from the speech of the protesters outside his store patrons inside the store could hear the protesters asking them to re consider shopping there how is that different from the abortion protesters asking women to re consider getting an abortion at a clinic harassment goes beyond expression to direct attack on particular persons in this case the workers and clients at a clinic its purpose is clearly not to convey information or express an opinion but to intimidate and do harm to other others even if the protesters speech could be considered harassment which it is not hate speech laws have generally been struck down by the courts i don t see how the words don t kill your baby or abortion is murder could be considered harassment anti abortionists have lost the battle for public opinion and the more psychopathic among them have turned to harassment arson bombing and murder to carry on their war there is no reason not to restrain them to protect the ordinary civil rights of everyone else some of the protesters were arrested for simply praying quietly on a public sidewalk yeah i could see how that might be equivalent to bombing and murder uh huh let us know when you get a grip on reality gordon fitch gcf panix com blg grn sta ny ny doug holtsinger
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10,644 | talk.politics.misc | re new study out on gay percentage in article apr romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulu rutgers edu theodore a kaldis writes join the pythagorean reform church repent of your evil irrational numbers and bean eating ways accept into your heart call the pythagorean reform church bbs at the above smacks of antihispanic bigotry really what if it said lentil eating or legume eating what then and i suppose accept is anti octal bigotry geez how pc can you get uncle fester what god wants god wants gigolos god gets god wants giraffes god help us all god wants politics thester nyx cs du edu god wants a good laugh
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10,645 | talk.politics.misc | re top ten signs that it s the age of aquarius on pennsylvania avenue in article ql tuinn j minerva cis yale edu chaudhary amar yale edu amar chaudhary writes hey i think the beaded curtains add a lovely s esque touch aaaaaaaaaaaa run run for your lives look canada europe and japan manage to provide health care for their citizens and yes basic health is a human right which people are entitled to if these nations aren t capitalist enough for you then i guess we ve found something better than capitalism there is nothing sacred about the capitalist system and if something be it socialism or anything else works better then i say let capitalism die then why are they in the process of systematically dismantling some of their socialistic health care systems through privitization of key components make love not war if i hold a gun to your wife would you respond the same way i don t think so while the age of aquarius may have hit the white house the age of peace love and harmony hasn t hit in south central la nor has it hit in former yugoslavia and as long as there are people in the world who would rather see me dead than thrive i want the protection of a police force who will keep the peace so i can make love without being shot contrary to popular belief it is possible to be a male and a feminist at the same time to discriminate against or to deny equal opportunity to a majority of the population is just plain wrong and trying to force them into some sort of tradition role is even worse women certainly have as much to offer this world as men and the day that gender discrimination is finally broken it going to make all the revolutions of the past few centuries seem like reform bills i look forward to it the ultimate statement for equal rights something many of the feminazis have forgotten is i do not care if you are either a man or a woman i do not care if you are black or white i do not care if you are gay or straight once you can honistly say i do not care about color race or gender or sexual preference then we will truly be on the right track keep shoving differences in my face and then expect us all to get along get real so long as you try to make me care if you are black female or whatever i am going to continue to balk it s natural human behaviour but the moment employers searching for employees banks looking to lend money and theclinton administration looking for appointees can honistly say i do not care about your color race gender or sexual preferences i instend instead to treat you as a human being crap like last year s riots will continue to happen hey man acadamia rules barf you mean the same economic theorists who say things like for the sake of convenience in mathematical modeling we will first assume there is no wealth creation now get a crack at implementing their phd thesis in real life go back to your textbooks on macroeconomic theory look in the first chapter of that book introducing the field of macroeconomic theory right there in chapter section is a statement like the following as it is difficult to predict and model wealth creation especially in an economy where wealth creation is inherently the province of individuals who create new inventions and discover new ideas we will assume for the rest of this book that there is no wealth creation we do not assume the lack of weath creation in the real world however the mathematical modeling of such an inherently unpredictable subject is impossible even though we assume no wealth creation we do believe that for most mathematical economic modeling such an assumption is reasonably valid as it allows us to make predictions which then can be tested so the guys who are running the store for clinton and company are now assuming that wealth creation does not exists they are borrowing an idea from the hitchhiker s guide too advanced to think of these simple things to be honist i would rather have an engineer with years of experience building bridges design the next bridge rather than a theoretical physicists with a freshly minted phd and no experience do the same job bill woody normally i don t post or even read most of the postings in this newsgroup if you would like to reply to this message and want me to see the reply then i guess you will just have to reply directly to me
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10,646 | talk.politics.misc | re a rational viewpoint was re new study out on gay percentage in article qn cinnabv darkstar ucsc edu stephen orchid ucsc edu writes it is very difficult for a young person to develop and build a positive view of themself when they are constantly being told implicitly and explicitly that they are wrong and immoral yes that is most certainly true however the paragrapgh reflects a value less position and infers that what is more important than anything else is to have a positive view of one s self this of course is foolish should a mass murderer a pedophile a year old pyromaniac have a positive view of themselves of course not a person that engages in behaviour that a large number of people condemn and if you believe in the concept of society then your only choice is to expect that person to have a negative view of themselves there are actually people that still believe love canal was some kind of environmental disaster weird eh these opinions are mine and you can t have em but i ll rent em cheap
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10,647 | talk.politics.misc | re getting off to an early start patrick townson ptownson eecs nwu edu writes so the jury will be making its announcement at am saturday morning pacific time am eastern time why such an ungodly hour maybe by making the announcement at am on the west coast they figure all the rioters will be asleep giving the troops time to move into place since the actual verdicts were not known by the authorities it was smart not to allow friday night for fighting sorry elton and to seal them for this morning also it allows for maximum daylight to wear down and frustrate any potential troublemakers as well as give more preparation time i guess we can look forward to a weekend of rioting eh are you a local news intern the mayor of los angeles in a press conference about am saturday morning actually that was pm cos it was shown live on our pm news and cut into cnn s o clock sports sorry but i didn t watch the devils islanders game no sportschannel meanwhile following the announcement of the jury s verdict the judge jury and assorted court personnel will be evacuated from the building via helicopters landing on the roof of the courthouse they can t even walk out through the front door with their heads held high we had cutovers to la s knbc on our wnbc and i didn t recall this detail but i ll not comment further on that won t the rioters have a surprise waiting for them when they wake up later today a net contact in l a tells me that the alert will remain over this weekend as some elements may find excuse over the not guilty verdicts on three of five charges the aiding and abetting those acquittals seem to balance out the fact that rodney king himself was not any kind of angel that night speeding and fleeing et al however another consideration is any street celebrations over the two convictions on the excessive force charges koons for incompetance and powell for overreacting both guilty as heck even from the view of nypd cops interviewed that might get out of hand also some elements may take the acquittals as an excuse to challenge the cops a dumb move obviously and koreans are still scared and certain people are really mad over how they have armed themselves in the last year a commander from nassau long island was questioned about how his people would have handled rodney king and he said we d have let him roll around in the dirt til he got tired then handcuff him gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
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10,648 | talk.politics.misc | re temper tantrums from the s in article apr pony ingres com garrett ingres com writes i see you are a total ignorant asshole as well it s the sign of a small mind to use filthy language when he can t articulate his point oh no not in this case i ve noticed that you conveniently edited out your stupid comment that the prc stands for cambodia when we re arguing the vietnam war and about cambodia and you toss in a boner like that along with your other boners you are an ignorant asshole oh and even the vietnamese agree that they did far more damage to cambodia than we ever did there are actually people that still believe love canal was some kind of environmental disaster weird eh these opinions are mine and you can t have em but i ll rent em cheap
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10,649 | talk.politics.misc | re new study out on gay percentage in article apr news cs brandeis edu st pip cc brandeis edu writes it seems that conservatives are putting a lot of effort into showing up the figure but that really doesn t make a difference like i said who cares how many there are would the fact that they re only of the population justify discrimination against them i don t think so uh well golly gee whiz let me see when the new president as his first big policy act tries to force homosexuals acceptance thereof on the military despite polls showing a consistent against it and the minority is only well gee i sure think that is newsworthy tells you something about the fascist politics being practiced there are actually people that still believe love canal was some kind of environmental disaster weird eh these opinions are mine and you can t have em but i ll rent em cheap
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10,650 | talk.politics.misc | re mr cramer s evidence in article apr sun urz uni heidelberg de gsmith lauren iwr uni heidelberg de gene w smith writes in article philc lsd ms netcom com phil netcom com phil ronzone writes libertarians want the state out of our lives nambla members want to fuck little boys now do you get it i see libertarians want to have the right to fuck little children of either sex and want to make sure everyone else has this right too nambla just wants to have the right to fuck little boys or are you just a secret member of nambla you re the one who suddenly seems to be defending the right to fuck children how many little girls have you raped today phil if wanting to abolish the age of consent is not repectable it is not respectable for anyone hmm you still don t get it then again i m not posting from a university where the hue and cry was raised against jewish physics tell me committed any anti semitic acts today what kind of boots do you wear and still libertarians want the state out of their lives parents are very capable of protecting their children against the predations of pedophiles which btw you still haven t disassociated yourself from are you or are you not a member of nambla there are actually people that still believe love canal was some kind of environmental disaster weird eh these opinions are mine and you can t have em but i ll rent em cheap
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10,651 | talk.politics.misc | re national sales tax the movie in article c m f geb news iastate edu atboyken iastate edu aaron t boyken writes if the vat will be done in the same way that state and local sales taxes are done nothing will be on the sticker the cleark ringing up your purchase gum gas car etc will hit a button to add another on top of the state and local sales taxes and that won t include any of the vat from previous levels of sales there is no need to include the vat from previous levels because the vat is a difference tax if the vat is x than the amount of tax the government receives through all the levels is x of the purchase price of the end consumer at the intervening levels only the difference between the vat paid out and the vat received is remitted to the government here s a question what if instead of a true vat the federal government imposed a sales tax of say the tax would only be paid on retail sales thus not building up at all levels of production costs that are just passed on to consumers anyway and would only go to reducing the deficit i know that this would never happen but it seems a lot more palettable than a vat a vat is infinitely preferable to a retail sails tax gerald
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10,652 | talk.politics.misc | re billaryklintonkligue illegal war the operation going on in somalia is a peacekeeping peaceenforcement operation where force may be used it is not a war it is also legal under international law which is higher than us law the operation is occuring under the ageis of the united nations can t get a higher authority than that on this earth
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10,653 | talk.politics.misc | re karadzic on bosnia peace plan what does anyone think that judge wopner would do if karadzic was on trial before him nevah happen but just a thought
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10,654 | talk.politics.misc | re most recent u n members czech republic republic of slovakia they were admitted early this year liechenstein was also recently admitted also san marino both within the last months incredible what passes for a nation sta state nowadays
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10,655 | talk.politics.misc | united nations gettin busy chapter operation in somlia almost chapter in cambodia and yugo bout time the un started using force to make the peace happen hopefully they will soon be doing the same with world economics
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10,656 | talk.politics.misc | model united nations just observed at the national model united nations here in nyc just one word on it awsome peace matt
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10,657 | talk.politics.misc | kyle k on rodney king in article c lp y fdk news cso uiuc edu kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu koppenhoefer kyle cramm writes how about the fact that you have a bunch of cops putting their lives on the line day in and day out who are afraid as hell of a large black guy that took a large amount of punishment and refused submit i m curious why you think that particular adjective is important ted frank thf kimbark uchicago edu i m sorry the card says moops the u of c law school standard disclaimers
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10,658 | talk.politics.misc | the lessons of the nazis re david irving scholastic fraud in responding to the post below i have considered issues far outside the scope of revisionism and principally have considered the political implications of a racist ideology and its inevitable outcome thus it is tangentially relevant to soc history and alt revisionism but i have directed followups to t p m since it is principally consideration of the political lessons to be drawn from the history of the nazi party that i deal with in article apr oneb almanac bc ca kmcvay oneb almanac bc ca ken mcvay writes as dawidowicz points out in the holocaust and the historians harvard university press the nadir in hitlerology is reached by david irving s hitler s war an amateur historian whose reputation as a german apologist and as a writer without regard for accuracy or truth won him a measure of notoriety irving produced a page work intended to show that hitler was kind to his animals and to his secretaries that he was probably the weakest leader germany has known in this century and that he did not murder the jews or even wish to do so but that the murder was committed behind his back without his knowledge or consent let us assume for the sake of argument that this was indeed the case does this mean that hilter would have been in any way less guilty of mass murder because he aquiesced rather than participated as an active and ardent supporter one of the important things to realise about the nazis is that the system was far more evil than any single member once created the nazi party itself was a murder machine that would inevitably commit genocide there was noone within it strong enough to prevent it remember that hitler did not originaly lead the nazi party nor was he particularly powerful within it until his oratory allowed the party to come to power had hitler reneged upon the emotiaonal expectations which he had created within the ranks of his supporters he would have been replaced as he had himself replaced the old guard who he beleived were unable to grasp the intellectual implications of their rhetoric this is why all parties that espouse nazi style race supremacy ideologies must be considered as dangerous and as evil as the nazis the idea that one race of people is inherently superior to another and that the greatest goal of humanity is to achieve racial perfection has only one logical outcome the gas chambers of auschwitz the nazi party is not simply the tale of a supremely evil single man who lead an entire country astray beyond the evil of individuals there was the evil of the system itself which was self generating and self perpetuating hitler was an extreemly evil person who built his party arround an ego cult centered on the demonstration of his own power this does not however mean that he was as entirely free from political constraints as he and his propagandists worked so hard to assert the myth that racism can produce a strong government that can cure a nations ills must be emphatically rejected in the same way we must accept a distinction between a govenrment that demonstrates its strength and one that is able to govern decisively in the manner it beleives is best i would accept only the latter as a strong government since most displays of strength are made necessary by an essential weakness it is important to understand that the nazis were not stupid nor were they amoral in the sense that they lacked moral scruples they acted in the same manner as the spanish inquisition murder and torture in the cause of morality the fault of the nazis lies in their axioms not in their logic nor in their implementation of those axioms thus all such parties such as the national front or david dukes klu klux klan front who assert the truth of those axioms must be considered for what they are advocates of a system that would commit genocide the conclusion that hitler was not only responsible but imensely evil is inescapable from the historical record it is important though to not let the conclusion be reached that the nazis espoused a set of ideas that were basically correct but had an unfortunate proponent the evils of the concept of race supremacy are primary although this most emphaticaly does not excuse individual culpability this is nevertheless secondary no matter what the promises made by a racist supremacist party upon election those promises will be broken as soon as circumstances permit if this requires the replacement of the leaders that originally made the pledges that will occur hatred is a supreme justifier it also creates a dynamic of its own when those in government allow it reign for many in government politics is a method of providing a justification for their own existence through a demonstration of their importance a rhetoric of hatred inevitably develops the question of action since the continued existence of an object of hatred is inevitably a reminder of the essential impotence of the politician thus we have the us raid on tripoli which has little purpose beyond a demonstration of power it is important to realise that there is no quantum jump between the politics of the right and those of the extreeme right but a progression from the reinforcement of popular predjudice to action being taken on the basis of that predjudice in the same way the extreeme left trace their route to despotism through their assertion of the subjugation of the individual to ideology it is important though that in attempting to understand the dynamics of political systems that this is not used to excuse the participants the leaders of a nation take on a supreme moral burden but not only do so voluntarily are required to stive to do so thus to take on such a task without a fundamental examination of the logical progression of ones set of axioms to its conclusion in itself is a moral crime furthermore in taking on such a duty one is obliged to put the interest of the whole before personal concerns even of personal security although it was inevitable that a party such as the nazis based upon hatred and an idolisation of the symbols of power should have saught to commit genocide it was not inevitable that they should succeeded each member of the system had an ability to create a change within it that had a possibility of changing the dynamic realising that the individual cannot hope to control a system does not mean accepting that the individual cannot affect the system phill hallam baker phill hallam baker
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10,659 | talk.politics.misc | turkish preisident turgut ozal passed away turkish president turgur ozal has passed away today after a heart attack in ankara at am gmt mr ozal was years old bahadir acuner acunerbb csugrad cs vt edu
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10,660 | talk.politics.misc | re swimming pool defense in article dasmith husc harvard edu dasmith husc harvard edu david smith writes granted the simple fact of holding down a job will improve these kids chances of getting another job in the future but what inner city kid would want to hold down just one more minimum wage job when there is so much more money to be made dealing drugs what suburban kid would want to hold down a minimum wage job when there is so much more money to be made dealing drugs yet somehow surburban kids do hold down minimum wage jobs so do inner city kids when give the chance any reason you think that inner city kids are incapable of doing legitimate work ted frank thf kimbark uchicago edu i m sorry the card says moops the u of c law school standard disclaimers
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10,661 | talk.politics.misc | re getting off to an early start in article b eecs nwu edu ptownson ptownson eecs nwu edu writes so the jury will be making its announcement at am saturday morning pacific time am eastern time why such an ungodly hour i guess its because the news is not what the government wanted to hear either the police officers have been found innocent or after a week the jury is hung neither good news from the government s point of view as they desparately needed some scapegoats in los angeles wrong on both accounts maybe by making the announcement at am on the west coast they figure all the rioters will be asleep giving the troops time to move into place no one is a rioter until they participate in a riot which is unlikely to happen now most of the people in l a are likely to have gotten up early to listen to the court announcement i guess we can look forward to a weekend of rioting eh sorry to disappoint you but this seems unlikely the mayor of los angeles in a press conference about am saturday morning in announcing that the jury would give its verdict later this morning just an hour away as i write this would not say what that verdict is but i think he was told in his press conference he said anyone rioting will be stopped dead in their tracks i don t think he was told however his statement was still appropriate meanwhile following the announcement of the jury s verdict the judge jury and assorted court personnel will be evacuated from the building via helicopters landing on the roof of the courthouse they can t even walk out through the front door with their heads held high jury duty is a solemn duty to be taken seriously it is not meant to be a source of pride or instant fame won t the rioters have a surprise waiting for them when they wake up later today well the many people who got up early to go to the court to hear the verdict found that justice was served given your dire and cynical predictions i imagine that it is you who will be surprised patrick townson
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10,662 | talk.politics.misc | re why not concentrate on child molesters in article optilink com walsh optilink com mark walsh writes there is a big difference between running one s business affairs and actively ripping people off and charging homosexuals more becuase people think that aids is a gay disease is actively ripping people off greg hennessy university of virginia usps mail astronomy department charlottesville va usa internet gsh w virginia edu uucp uunet virginia gsh w
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10,663 | talk.politics.misc | re why not concentrate on child molesters in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes that describes some straights and nearly all homosexual males can you provide any evidence that doesn t ahve massive selection effects no i thought not just slander on your part greg hennessy university of virginia usps mail astronomy department charlottesville va usa internet gsh w virginia edu uucp uunet virginia gsh w
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10,664 | talk.politics.misc | re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article c l rp ebm news iastate edu jrbeach iastate edu jeffry r beach writes in article apr gordian com mike gordian com michael a thomas writes from a pragmatic standpoint there certainly is some justification if it is a vice people will commit anyway shall we criminalize alcohol again if the re legalization for alcohol were done from making you look bad is too damn easy the vast social and historical differences between alcohol and other drugs make this comparison worthless this meaningless statement makes you look bad
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10,665 | talk.politics.misc | re the role of the national news media in inflaming passions theodore a kaldis writes ah i know women who wear miniskirts without wearing underwear and they are not prostitutes no i suppose they must be sluts nope they both are very nice women whom i m good friends with or do you think its ok to rape anyone when you don t like the way they dress gee both clayton and kaldis engaging in ad hominem arguments where calling someone names as you did are you ignorant of what an ad hominem argument is you provided absolutely no evidence chump i provided a quote from the judge what else do you want greg hennessy university of virginia usps mail astronomy department charlottesville va usa internet gsh w virginia edu uucp uunet virginia gsh w
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10,666 | talk.politics.misc | re my gun is like my american express car in article apr grace rt cs boeing com rwojcik atc boeing com richard wojcik writes in article misty john anasazi com john r moore writes papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca paul prescod writes i m not i m in canada we have far fewer shootings like this we have had i believe one mass murder in the last twenty years i m not going to say we don t have our gun problems but we do have the world s largest undefended boarder with one of the most gun happy countries in the world i think canada illustrates that gun control does have an effect in fact it s suprising that there is any difference considering how easy it is to smuggle a gun from the u s yes it s amazing isn t it in fact it should tell you that gun control is not the reason your crime rate is low since any idiot can smuggle guns into canada from the us at any time i think paul was trying to make the point that any idiot doesn t there are surely some idiots who do smuggle guns but paul seems to feel that the exis tence of stricter gun control laws has had a deterrent effect this seems a strange argument to make considering that canada s violent crime rate in general is far lower than that of the u s our non gun crime rate is greater than their entire crime rate it would seem strange to suggest that it to were the result of gun control laws i think if we looked we d find very specific cultural and enforcement reasons why the non gun rate is low as well and then that reasons could be applied to the with gun rates as easily given that most criminally used guns are either legally purchased or stolen from those who purchase them legally having more restrictions on legal possession does seem to have the effect of reducing gun related crimes aside from the fact that i find the idea of being punished because somebody might steal something from me and go and commit a crime with it a silly solution it still doesn t address the question of canada which is now by the way blaming their rising gun crime rate on the u s strange that the border used to magically keep the guns out but now isn t it certainly makes sense that it would well it makes sense to some of us anyway the other side of the coin of course is that far illegal drugs are purchases legally or stolen from people who purchase them legally i ve still not been convinced that guns a commodity which criminals have shown their perfectly willing to pay for from illegal sources stolen either from police military or civilian we wouldn t simply see south american sources from which drugs come start smuggling guns as well since there s a thriving gun manufacturing industry down there if you would just look a little closer at the crime statistics you would realize that our non gun crime rate is also very high so guns per se are not the issue directly contradicted by the nejm study that compared crime in seattle and vancouver b c the non gun rates were roughly the same for both cities the difference in violent crime rates was almost totally gun related and as was not pointed out in the study but in critiques of it two seperate articles by james wright and david kopel come to mind it was pointed out that the difference was also almost entirely minority related that is the gun crime rate skyrocketed for poor minorities blacks and hispanics primarily while when you compared the white majority they were virutally identical the problem with the nejm study was they compared minority vs non minority percentages but failed to take into account the relative conditions of those minorities that there was an eqaul percentage of nomn whites was about as far as they went they failed to take into account that the non whites in either city were not living in the same conditions if the situation was entirely based on availability of guns then we d expect that the white rates the two groups which are arguably fairly comparative in the two cities would have a far higher rate in seattle yet the majority in seattle is not only not significantly higher when the minorities are excluded but slightly lower violent crime is highly concentrated in the inner city surprise pick the area with the highest incidence of poverty drug use disease etc since rates are lower in suburbia us middle class folks can ignore the problem the point is of course that many of the u s inner city problems are not mirrored in canada as such if there is a condition which is significantly different in canada from the u s and violent crime is highly correlated to that area suggesting that gun control is the source of canada s low rate is highly questionable as one canadian pointed out on talk politics guns canada s major gun control in did not result in either a reduction or a slowing of an increase in violent crime rates which have been rising steadily since apparently they didn t even mirror the u s s very large drop of violent crime in the early eighties most violent crime occurs in areas with strict gun control already post hoc ergo propter hoc those areas implemented gun control because of the high rates true only to a certain extent take washington d c where gun control was instituted while it had crime problems true but that crime proceeded to explode afterwards similarly for new york the question is not simply a point in time where crime was high or low did the gun control significantly and positively impact violent crime since it s gone up in those areas often faster than it was going up before you can t simply dismiss the high crime rate by saying gun control was caused by it yes gun control may be instituted to deal with high crime but if the crime is not positively impacted you can t continually say that that crime rate was entirely a cause of that gun control since much of that crime rate increased after gun control was implemented just as happened in canada similar or worse rates exist in cities with poor gun control as would be expected if violent crime was generally independent of gun control and the jury is still out on the question of whether recent tough laws in washington d c may have alleviated violence and suicide rates there would this be the laws which made manufacturers liable for what others did with their guns and suddenly the police found nobody would sell to them david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
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10,667 | talk.politics.misc | re re fillibuster in article c n wh izv dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes in article apr martha utcc utk edu pa utkvm utk edu david veal writes in article c jpl cz dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes in article apr martha utcc utk edu pa utkvm utk edu david veal writes well yes and no the federalist papers are propaganda and it is therefore difficult to determine precisely what maddison etc were up to from them there are a couple of ways to look at them one is we want you to support this constitution so we ll say anything that we think will appeal to you or the more straightforward this is why we think what we ve suggested in this constitution is a good idea you clearly consider the former to be the primary situation the point is that they did not make pains to point out where the consitution may have been aginst the new yorker s interests also they did not want to raise opposition by basing their advocacy on unpopular principles horrors appealing to popular principles can we perhaps as the question of whether the constitution might have been written to appeal to the principles rather than as you appear to believe it was written with something else in mind and propoganda put out by its supporters but let s be honest about something here when was the last time you brought up all the valid points against your own arguments or are they simply propogranda we can t know what phill really means because he s obviously using arguments designed to convince well i know hamilton was a dyed in the wool monarchist and probably the authoritarian extreme to jefferson s democratic impules but what would you suggest as a means of determining their opinions on the government if we don t consider what they wrote about the government i don t propose that any means exists for determining their true opinions thus their true opinions died with them and are of little help today their opinions have not the slightest bearing on the matter though only their arguments these are true or false regardless of who said them or why if they re true or false regardles of why they were said why on earth did you make a point of calling them propogranda that would seem to be irrelevent the difficulty that most us posters seem to have is in considering that their arguments may have been flawed or no longer apply to modern societies oh i have no argument with questioning them i don t believe they no longer apply but that s because i think most of them were good arguments i m not entirely happy about the situation because they were obviously only applied to a minority of the time but i don t think that alone is sufficient to invalidate them if they were alive today the one opinion we could count upon these men to express is that a careful study of the mechanisms of government is necessary and that an ongoing improvement of the same is required they gave their opinions in certain areas and have been proved right in other areas they got it wrong they ensured that there was a mechanism to adapt and improve the consititution this can only happen if there is a willingness to accept that the structural problems within the us political system may require constitutional change as a solution since the u s constitution is the basis for the u s political system most changes in it would require constitutional change in this particular case however the fillibuster is a matter of procedure and tradition it only should have been made part of the constitution if the senate was less powerful than the house of lords than we d almost have to state that the house of representatives was also in fact they both were because the british government had much greater power than did the american system in principle no in practice yes in principle no that they had less power of that they should have had less power the british government today is theoreticaly dependent on the will of the monarch by convention any monarch seeking to exercise that power is deposed the subtly is that the prime minister is not able to identify their politics with the national interest in the same manner that us presidents regularly do phill we re discusing the power of legislative houses while the prime minister is member of parliament he is more analgous although badly to the u s president now please explain to me how the u s house of representatives is in principle more powerful than the house of lords or the senate but in practice is less are you suggesting that the writers of the constitution really intended for them to be more powerful but gosh darn the thing was ratified before they realized they d forgotten to put those extra restrictions on the senate in i disagree the system is not too slow it was simply designed to handle less than it has demanded that it handle as somebody in washington put it whose name i forget congress has become everybody s city council one reason for that is that at every level the government is rendered unable to come to decisions these decisions are pushed up to the next higher level instead not at all as any entry level political science course will tell you people who want laws implemented will always choose the level of government to attack which presents them with the best chance of getting what they want with national interest groups it is simply a very rational thing to do to want the federal government to enact a law rather than the states less people to persuade and less contributions to make why do those concerned about abortion primarily concentrate at the federal level simply because if they win that battle all the little state battlefields are won by extension the same extends to insurance medicine and most other questions local government has not failed in that it hasn t done what it should but that it is dominated by local interests thus non local interests who want localities to abide by their rules can t get their rules past the local government thus since they ve got more clout only in the wrong place they appeal to the next higher level because it can impose its will on the lower i mean let s get real here do we really need the congres of the united states deciding that x traffice light should be on thus and such pattern or that carjacking needs to be a federal as opposed to a local crime the more people want the more congress will take power to sell it to them for their votes i don t think the rise of special interests is coincidence with the increased power of congress congress is more than capable of quick action and has more than enough power and time on its hands if it confined itself to what its original jurisidiction was and allowed more local autonomy if they were to start from a social welfare model instead of the current no state subsidy motto they would be better placed as it is there is plenty of state money being handed out the problem is that it is distributed on the basis of power in congress and not on the basis of actual need bingo the higher up the governmental ladder the less actual need matters because political power can be concentrated at higher levels while people with less cloud only find themselves reduced to in effectiveness in order to set up a school project in new york state you have to pay off the other states with pork defense contracts agricultural subsidies etc or to be precise of the states since you need to beat the filibuster then why not simply leave new york s education to new york i remain unconcinved that there is any state in the union which is not capable of educating its own children if that s what they want to do and if you leave it to them you only have to worry about the pork in that state and since industries can t concentrate their political power and wealth rather they must divide it among the states to try and get what they want individual voices have more relative impact the problem with the fillibuster is not that you must buy off states but that the congress has acquired too much power to sell pork it is not a case of the system of government they created failing but that it is operating under a set of conditions they specifically wanted to avoid namely a concentration of power it would seem then that the proper thing to do is not to reduce the power of either house in some attempt to grease the wheels all you ll get then is a system which moves quicker to do stupid things it would make more sense to make more decisions at a local level no you have to break the machine free of seizure before you can redirect it but why on earth should we want to redirect it you said yourself that you have to sell pork to get things through congress if congres has less authority to sell pork and retains its authority to enact national legislation within its granted jurisdiction the pork problem is significantly reduced the current blocks on power simply absolve congress of any responsibility to come to a decision the current blocks essentially state that inaction is preferable to action thus it the system is weighted against action considering the government the usually the institution with the sole power to enforce its decisions by force i consider bias against making those decisions a good thing pushing the decisions lower in the pyramid won t work unless the lower levels are less corrupt in most cases they are worse not better the difference with the lower pyramid is that a they have more legal legitimate authority in most matters under our constitution than the federal government and b at those lower levels power is harder to concentrate and c you get the benefit of not imposing new deicisons on everybody at once you get to see them tried out without a national decision congressional action usually treats the entire country as a whole yet even with similar problems in different areas different solutions may be called for and while i often don t agree with the decisions my local and state reps make at least i have a better option of going to the city council and shooting my mouth off i d much rather the majority of laws be made by accessible people who hang around and end up having to put up with them rather than somebody far off in washington with half a million or more constituents i m curious what you base your assumption that lower levels are more corrupt i fail to see where any restrictions implied or otherwise were placed on the veto it could just as easily have been read as a means to put a check on democratically popular but unwise in the executive s opinion policies since we were arguing from the federalist papers i would point to them phill you brought up the federalist papers we were arguing the fillibuster and whether or not a minority of senators should be allowed to hold up a bill you claimed the senate was suppose to be a far less powerful house and i contended there was nothing in the constitution or other writings which indicated this which was when you brought up that we can t decide what the founders wanted based on the federalist papers you argued against them i never argued from them i have primarily referred to the constitution which places only very small restrictions on the senate than for the house the us constitution gives almost no reasoning as to how it should work the only part where a reason is given is the right to bear arms ammendment where the well regulated militia justification is ambiguous the u s constitution is a nuts and bolts document the delcaration of independence was the high brow reasoning there are a couple of other examples though such as the reasoning for the power to tax and the reasoning for the power to grant permits both in article i section that the veto was meant to be an exceptional measure follows from the fact of the senate if the president was meant to revise legislation then there would be three chambers of the legislature not two furthermore the separation of powers would have been much less distinct to a certain extend i do believe the veto has become something it wasn t intended however i also believe it is inevitable considering the congress own abuse of their power to make bills say whatever they want them to say unlike most people i think we shouldn t be worrying about the veto which is fine but of the problem in congress which almost necessitates its abuse there is no limit in the constitution to the president s veto power regarding what a bill is for previous presidents have used the veto for any number of reasons most usually having something to do with their agenda i am really curious how you single bush out as the president who abused vetos he has the record for vetos bush phill that s absurd bush had vetos one of which was over ridden go read up on fdr if you think that s anything resembling a record why is it not a reasonable restriction because senators is the magic holy number upon which laws must be based if senators feel safe enough with their state constituencies to stand up and fillibuster isn t that enough to indicate there s a sufficient question as to whether a law is a good idea or not to re evaluate it up to a point the fact is though that when the majority are opposed by a minority the minority should not be allowed to win by default why not what is inherently wrong with biasing the system against action historically governemnt action in the u s when dealing with issues with a bare minority and a large minority have not been successful when you re in a position of imposing federal power on diverse people why should the federal government not have to got through something more than a bare majority why one earth should be sufficient to enact a law which covers million people in very very diverse places and living in radically different conditions why shouldn t a super majority be required because the bill at issue is a money bill relating to a short term proposal now we re switching from a general question of a fillibuster to a specific bill i don t see how it make a difference it is not a change in the law where a presupposition in favour of the status quo is arguable sure it s arguable theyr e arguing it however requiring to bring it to a vote ensures that they ll have to have a good argument something that isn t based solely on party lines any system in which the simple majority is given absolute power to ignore the minority then the minority will be ignored i do not see this as a positive thing and for all that i m sure the republicans are looking for pork as much as the democrats they ve got some legitimate objections to the legislation in question so instead you consider a system under which the minority automatically win to be superior no i am completely happy with a system which requires a minority for action since u s history is a history of carving up population groups and implementing piece meal on minorities i feel minorities should have sufficent clout to prevent action they feel strongly enough about and is hardly a tiny minority i don t advocate the minority being capable of initiating actionm but i see no problem with biasing the federal system against action david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
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10,668 | talk.politics.misc | re swimming pool defense in article apr midway uchicago edu thf kimbark uchicago edu ted frank writes in article dasmith husc harvard edu dasmith husc harvard edu david smith writes granted the simple fact of holding down a job will improve these kids chances of getting another job in the future but what inner city kid would want to hold down just one more minimum wage job when there is so much more money to be made dealing drugs what suburban kid would want to hold down a minimum wage job when there is so much more money to be made dealing drugs yet somehow surburban kids do hold down minimum wage jobs so do inner city kids when give the chance any reason you think that inner city kids are incapable of doing legitimate work i suppose the correct answer is not family values s pose not never mind sorry king sparky banaian it s almost as though young kbanaian pitzer claremont edu white guys get up in the dept of economics pitzer college morning and have a big smile latest gdp forecast on their face because you know homer wrote the iliad d souza
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10,669 | talk.politics.misc | the verdict is in rodney king the federal civil rights trial against the four la police officers accused of violating rodney king s civil rights is now history lawrence powell guilty stacey coons guilty theodore brazenio innocent timothy wind innocent sentencing slated for mid august appeals expected so far all is calm in la michael thomas mike gordian com i don t think bambi eyes will get you that flame thrower hobbes to calvin usnail irvine ave santa ana heights ca pabell fax
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10,670 | talk.politics.misc | re new study out on gay percentage in article philc n d mk netcom com phil netcom com phil ronzone writes tells you something about the fascist politics being practiced ah ending discrimination is now fascism greg hennessy university of virginia usps mail astronomy department charlottesville va usa internet gsh w virginia edu uucp uunet virginia gsh w
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10,671 | talk.politics.misc | re abolish selective service in article apr m harvard edu borden head cfa harvard edu dave borden writes the selective service registration should be abolished to start with the draft is immoral whether you agree with that or not we don t have one now and military experts agree that the quality of the armed forces is superior with a volunteer army than with draftees finally the government has us on many lists in many computers the irs social security admistration and motor vehicle registries to name a few and it can find us if it needs to maintaining yet another list of people is an utter waste of money and time let s axe this whole department and reduce the deficit a little bit dave borden borden m harvard edu you selfish little bastard afraid you might have to sacrafice somthing for your country what someone not approve a lone for you to bad what is immoral is people like you and the current president who don t have any idea why this country still exists after years
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10,672 | talk.politics.misc | re new study out on gay percentage on sat apr gmt greg hennessy observed in article philc n d mk netcom com phil netcom com phil ronzone writes tells you something about the fascist politics being practiced ah ending discrimination is now fascism is that what they called it when truman forced integration of the armed forces despite the opposition of congress and most of the american public at that time michael d adams starowl a i rahul net enterprise alabama tilting at windmills hurts you more than the windmills lazarus long
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10,673 | talk.politics.misc | re new study out on gay percentage in apr romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu theodore a kaldis writes so what so this bolsters the contention that many homosexuals are liars this statement is just so blatantly disgusting and free of any implicit neural activity that i will almost completely ignore it join the pythagorean reform church repent of your evil irrational numbers and bean eating ways accept into your heart call the pythagorean reform church bbs at the above smacks of antihispanic bigotry sigh it s so amusing to watch bigots point fingers at what they imagine to be other bigots i do believe this person meant bean counting and are you trying to suggest that only hispanics eat beans or that they even have a monopoly on eating beans or that this person is seriously promoting what is obviously a tongue in cheek sig you must have a brain somewhere if you can cause your fingers to type use it drywid bi andrew d simchik schnopia as b uhura cc rochester edu treewater words weren t made for cowards happy rhodes
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10,674 | talk.politics.misc | re swimming pool defense in article kbanaian bernard pitzer claremont edu kbanaian bernard pitzer claremont edu king banaian writes in article apr midway uchicago edu thf kimbark uchicago edu ted frank writes in article dasmith husc harvard edu dasmith husc harvard edu david smith writes granted the simple fact of holding down a job will improve these kids chances of getting another job in the future but what inner city kid would want to hold down just one more minimum wage job when there is so much more money to be made dealing drugs what suburban kid would want to hold down a minimum wage job when there is so much more money to be made dealing drugs yet somehow surburban kids do hold down minimum wage jobs so do inner city kids when give the chance any reason you think that inner city kids are incapable of doing legitimate work i suppose the correct answer is not family values s pose not never mind sorry are you assuming that families in the inner city don t have family values i sure hope not
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10,675 | talk.politics.misc | re new study out on gay percentage in c l v jcv news cso uiuc edu dans uxa cso uiuc edu dan s writes brian gab unt edu brian drakula stone writes no axe to grind here i m just a scientist and i hate to see statistics abused pity you didn t say something about the use of statistics to justify targeting and persecuting a minority then men are men and they all like sex i am a gay male i have had sex three times in my life all with the same man before that i was a virgin i am a hetero man and have had sex with one woman in my life my wife it is very pleasing to me to be able to say that i hope you have the same feeling as i do i also wish that you could if you wanted experience the joys and trials of being committed to someone for life there is something about marriage that makes the commitment much greater than one might expect what in the tree makes you think we queers can t experience that commitment what s stopping us from committing to one partner for the rest of our lives i have every intention of doing so once i find the right person and whether that person is male or female i seriously doubt that a church ceremony public vow licence will make any difference whatsoever in the sort of commitment i experience with that person you have no conception of the difference marriage makes since you have never known any other way statistics alone prove that most criminals are by default hetero don t forget about the culture sadly we don t as a society look upon homosexuality as normal and as we are all too well aware there are alot of people who condemn it as a result the gay population is not encouraged to develop non promiscuous relationships in fact there are many roadblocks put in the way of such committed relationships it is as if the heterosexual community puts these blocks there so as to perpetuate the claim that gays are immoral my if we allowed gays to marry raise children we might just find out they re as moral as we are can t have that can we you re getting to the right idea here just be careful of making statements like the above and you ll be part of the solution and not the problem just some thoughts flame away no flames necessary drywid bi andrew d simchik schnopia as b uhura cc rochester edu treewater words weren t made for cowards happy rhodes
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10,676 | talk.politics.misc | re kyle k on rodney king thf kimbark uchicago edu ted frank writes in article c lp y fdk news cso uiuc edu kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu koppenhoefer kyle cramm writes how about the fact that you have a bunch of cops putting their lives on the line day in and day out who are afraid as hell of a large black guy that took a large amount of punishment and refused submit i m curious why you think that particular adjective is important i m curious why you took a beign statement and cross posted it to several different news groups including something along the lines of alt discrimination look rodney king is black and large i have several large black male friends and they are referred to as being large black men to their faces and by themselves you know ted i have a large number of adjectives for you but i will spare you most of them because i try not to get into personal flame wars let me just say that i think your action of cross posting this was total bs and you re trying to start some crap hopefully others will see through your trite little game and not play along
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10,677 | talk.politics.misc | re new study out on gay percentage in apr magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu ryan c scharfy writes so what so there are less gays then the gays claim don t forget that had or more partners i was wondering why i wasn t getting laid your bad english see quote above actually i bet you more gay bi men are as not as promiscuous as gay men because more of them could have the option of living a straight life and with social pressures probably would at least try you d lose that wager if the supporting argument were part of it did you know that is is a fact that homosexuality was comparatively high in hitler s storm troopers sa before he came to power i wonder if they got to put the triangles on themselves did you know that hitler himself was a devout christian and heterosexual drywid bi andrew d simchik schnopia as b uhura cc rochester edu treewater words weren t made for cowards happy rhodes
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10,678 | talk.politics.misc | re race and violence in apr gtx com al gtx com alan filipski writes even though this city phoenix has a relatively small black population black people seem to be responsible for a disproportionate amount of violent crime yesterday black men robbed a cafeteria beat the employees for no apparent reason and shot one dead even though they were being cooperative a few days ago a car full of black men opened fire on a car containing a young white couple and their baby possibly because they didn t like the way the man was driving the baby was slightly injured these incidents are not even unusual even if a white person starts out without racial prejudice as after all we all do and no one teaches them to be prejudiced it s sometimes hard to see how they can avoid becoming so based on their own observations and instinct for self preservation we always taught our children that racial prejudice is wrong not only bad but also mistaken but how do you counteract the effect of these kinds of incidents what s the answer how can we work against racial prejudice when incidents like this keep fanning the flames what can we say to deny that racial prejudice is a rational response to our environment is it should we since the s i have thought the only hope is through integration based on ignoring race and treating each person as an individual but so many either preach divisiveness by emphasizing race or validate racism by their actions where does it lead alan filipski gtx corp e camelback road phoenix az usa internet al gtx com uucp uunet gtx al phone alan you can start by teaching your children that the perpetrators of crimes no more represent the black community than racist hateful whites represent the majority culture although there are many ethnic minorities who have fallen into the very trap that you are struggling with and believe otherwise the trap is the easy way out for yourself i think it would be a good idea to realize that the demographics related to the crimes you speak of have less to do with race and much to do with socioeconomic status and disenfranchisement you re going to find higher crime within any community comprised of any ethnic group or subgroup that has become dysfunctional whatever the factors leading to that dysfunction with ethnic minorities it is more usually than not as i said socioeconomic disenfranchisement if for example you lived in an area where there were very few blacks but quite a few poor for generations whites you d see the crime statistics reflecting the dysfunction of those white people would you then worry about whther your children would begin to see whites as undesireable or whatever the trap springs into action when our innate compunction to define us and other raises its little voice the trap becomes dangerous when we stop to listen to that little voice and stop thinking like rational humans it s interesting that blacks are traditionally seen as the or the most criminal element in many of our urban areas i don t know the racial makeup of phoenix so i can t speak to your situation however i live in san francisco a city that loves to tout its ethnic diversity here we have black gangs hispanic gangs asian yes the model minority gangs and even a few white gangs the asian gangs have become a particularly troublesome element for law enforcement here mainly due i think to their propensity for engaging in organized criminal activities but ask people on the street and they ll out of times tell you that black gangs and crime are what they most fear during the disturbance in los angeles last year many of the rioters and looters were not black some were even white i remember being amazed at television news scenes that showed looting mobs where there were maybe one or two blacks at most my perceptions gleaned from tv news were further corroborated by numerous friends and relatives that live in los angeles this may have been the country s first truly multi ethnic riot yet i know from face to face and online discussion that in the minds of america the popular perception is that it was a black riot in closing i d like to say that you raise some interesting points that really need discussion our country has spent too long ignoring the racism and its attendant ills that is very much a part of our culture as a people we are afraid to face up to some hurtful truths and the problem becomes compounded daily we cannot afford to do it much longer i truly believe that the well being of all of us depends on changing our current course of denial and repression i wish you and your children and all other people of all colors luck in avoiding the trap peace my brother m hokh ton the crystal wind is the storm mdouglas netcom com and the storm is data michael douglas llyr and the data is life player s litany the long run
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10,679 | talk.politics.misc | re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article stevethc li y c v netcom com steveth netcom com steve thomas wri tes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus a cs ohio state edu ryan c scharfy writes however legalizing it and just sticking some drugs in gas stations to be bought like cigarettes is just plain silly i don t find this silly at all i find it silly black humor that we re spending billions of dollars and risking the lives and freedoms of every american to save a bunch of by choice druggies could you please tell us why you find this silly that s why letters w h and y rather than arguments like oh everbody thinks such and such is true first the only drug that could possibly be put in drug stations are marijuana or its derivitives every other drug that i can think of can kill you if you take to much by the very nature of these drugs your decision making skills aren t up to par that is how it differs from asprin flinstone vitamins etc we don t even allow penicilin to be sold over the counter second we already have a big enough drunk driving and alchoholic problem in this country if marijuana were legal undoubtedly more people would use it and that is a problem people use it get stupid and hurt other people ryan
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10,680 | talk.politics.misc | re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article stevethc lm e fx netcom com steveth netcom com steve thomas wri tes in article c l c fxp news iastate edu jrbeach iastate edu jeffry r beach writes in article stevethc js f fn netcom com steveth netcom com steve thomas w rites boy it looks like the wod is working really good to stop people from being screwed up in the head given that example issue your friend got his drugs legal or not legal he ll continue to get them issue why should i as somebody who does not use illegal drugs and who is not screwed up have to pay for this idiot s problems he s not doing anybody any harm except himself the wod on the other hand is a n immediate threat to my life and livelyhood tell me why i should sacrafice this to that hello is there anybody in there you think you have to pay for this idiot s problem now who s going to pay for the ballooning number of addicts and all of the associated problems with them i don t even want to think about it with hillary in the white house and an administration that feels our pain look if you were truly for lower taxation and less government you would not be advocating the wod ever wonder why the wod is a bi partisan issue no harm but to himself what about when he drives his school bus full of kids into a train when he gets stoned and drives up on a sidewalk and kills people when he lives off me on welfare for the rest of his life ridiculous i can t imagine anyone this stupid forgive me for flaming but this is sooooooo obvious tell me why any of the above cases cannot be caused be a legal drug viz alcohol or are you for having a war on that too now i ll tell you more people are killed by alcohol related accidents than all other drugs combined by far probably because more people have access to alchohol it is legal you know the problem with the wod is that it has no bite sending the slimy bastards to the chair for selling drugs to kids now there s some bit yeah that s it send a kid from the inner city who has no other viable means to make money and turns to selling drugs to an over crowded federal prison where he learns to do real crime of course this kid would be much better off selling crack to his neighborhood and helping in its demise without drug money being pumped into these blights from the affluent outside there would be no crime who would they steal from each other drugs bring money into the community just like any other business would except that since drugs are illegal the economy is an underground one and if those drugs were legal the neighborhood could legally go to hell a self sustaining underground economy can only proliferate by a constant willful infusion of money from the outside if you take away drug laws you put an end to the underground economy and therefore to large scale crime and if we made murder legal we would put an end to murder as a crime kids in the inner cities are faced with a very tough life growing up there or selling drugs and having everything at their fingertips instantly many kids choose selling drugs they sell products to people who want to buy them they make money off of rich white kids from the suburbs then they go to prison then they become hardened criminals and learn that you re much better off stealing car stereos in the suburbs because all the police forces are spending all their money in the inner city saving people from themselves what you can bring up all the examples you want about crack babies and whathaveyou the solution never has anything to do with the laws crack is illegal so you are saying crack babies who are that way legally are okay no social problem however great is worth destroying the freedom in america the destruction of freedom is never an answer to any social problem you can t even walk down the street at night alone in america because of drugs freedom my ass ryan
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10,681 | talk.politics.misc | re top ten signs that it s the age of aquarius on pennsylvania avenue in regard to woody s post i thought i would remind him of something in the midst of his tirade against academia as a member of the generation likely to pay for the crap reagan and his cronies started with the deficit according to the brilliant laffer curve not i think we need to look with open minds upon any ideas which will allow us to directly address the problems of the gigantic federal deficit and debt and continue to allow our economy to expand and i don t remember woody and co complaining about academia while laffer implemented his policy stockman approved it while being fully aware the numbers not adding up and reagan completing the largest con job of the century which my generation and i will now have to pay for jesse
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10,682 | talk.politics.misc | re if drugs should be legalized how was good neighbor in article qpakjinniq senator bedfellow mit edu wdstarr athena mit edu wil liam december starr writes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu ryan c scharfy said however legalizing it and just sticking some drugs in gas stations to be bought like cigarettes is just plain silly plus i have never heard of a recommended dosage for drugs like crack ecstasy chrystal meth and lsd the minute report said it worked with cocaine cigarettes pot and heroin or the government could adopt the radical and probably unamerican idea that citizens are free to live their lives as they wish and simply decriminalize cocaine marijuana heroin lsd etc please explain why the idea of allowing recreational drugs to be bought like cigarettes is just plain silly after all it works just fine for nicotine yeah cancer is pretty cool isn t it ryan
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10,683 | talk.politics.misc | re new bullshit study out on gay percentage in optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes from the santa rosa cal press democrat april p b male sex survey gay activity low a new natonal study on male sexual behavior the most thorough examination of american men s sexual practices published since the kinsey report more than four decades ago shows about percent of the men surveyed had engaged in homosexual sex and percent considered themselves exclusively homosexual etc etc the article also contains numbers on the number of sexual partners the median number of sexual partners for all men was sure and what s of a woman any hypothesis how can you trust a report from people that have no idea of what a median is the same bullshit article reported that of all the men have sex times or more a week elf how many times did you fill one of those questionnaires and had other statistics that took in no consideration different class backgrounds marital status etc no information on sampling were given compared to the table i have already posted from masters johnson and kolodny showing male homosexual partners it is apparent that homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general male population it s a shame that we don t have a breakdown for do you think you can compare so lightly secondary data from very different and discutible surveys straight men vs gay bi men that would show even more dramatically how much more promiscuous gay bi men are it just shows how dramatically ignorant are press release writers and most pople that read them paolo
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10,684 | talk.politics.misc | re z magazine health care reform march sorry harel et al but our doctors and most hospitals are still private in canada as well as in much of western europe harelb math cornell edu harel barzilai grad brown writes h e a l t h c a r e r e f o r m by camille colatosti z magazine see bottom march the single payer model sometimes called national health insurance eliminates private insurance companies and removes health care from employment the government provides free health care to all u s residents and there are no out of pocket costs wrong in better ec countries that use pure but public health insurance like we use in canada rather than self enclosed hmo like socialized medicine of our costs comes from private supplementary insurance and or copayments france magazine s summer edition has a fantastic presentation of their basic insurance coverage including a sample chart of copayment percentages for days you re covered for of the public hospital rate afterward with extra private insurance you can get into a private hospital and be covered for any differences beyond the public hospital rate the public insurance covers beyond days or the same cash amount for a private hospital and the difference is paid out of pocket or according to your supplementary private insurance over rds of french have some form of extra private insurance so of health costs in europe are out of private funds and not gleaned from other taxes the gdp figures are combined public and private expenditures for total outlay using the same methods that yield the figure for the u s that the french had deductibles and copayments in their insurance fund is to their credit i am in the minority for advocating such back in canada to make the canadian insurance look more like real health insurance which actually it is the new reform party a breakoff of traditionalists from the conservatives with a mildly libertarian faction hold our public health insurance as an untouchable but that just a few people have to be reminded that it s not free the average canadian european is more fiscally naive than their american counterparts on issues like these i m one of the few people who favour copayments forget about leftists even our conservatives attack me for it on the canadian newsgroups to make it look more like real insurance cos the insurance payment is hidden unlike in france and if you didn t know it you d believe it actually is socialized medicine american conservatives libertarians and canadian leftists are the only ones who seriously call it that canadians aren t worried about the americans who spend we re worried about the french and germans who spend to our so the insurance is looking at things that shouldn t be paid for out of general funds like physicals for insurance policies sick notes electrolysis etc the reason that the canadian health insurance hasn t spiralled out of control despite being open and universal is that unlike americans there is no urge to spend all of your benefits worth and more if you can we re a different culture like the play or pay model managed competition leaves in place two elements of the current health care system that reformers most often criticize the private for profit insurance industry and the employer based system of coverage managed competition compels employers to enroll their workers in large pools of health insurance customers entire industries may for example sponsor a pool or network insurance companies doctors hospitals and other health care providers then bid for the pool s business competing in theory on the basis of price and quality managed care relies on hmo s which are unknown in most western nations that use only public health insurance like canada france and germany i m canadian and my german father in law to be says of hmo nhs approaches we left that behind with east germany sure hmo nhs controls costs because you have managers strangling doctors with budget strings in canada we use the public health insurance approach as in france and germany with all private doctors and both private and public hospitals it is all pure insurance without hmo s the divisions are different with the germans using a couple hundred interlinked sickness funds over a century old while canada divides by their provinces who run the insurance fund and set local fees with the doctors monopoly federal funds cover the fees disbursed with such an open ended system it s no surprise that canada is to the u s in costs all insurance is the most expensive way to go the french and germans use the same approach but have larger populations in more compact geography to improve scales of economy gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
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10,685 | talk.politics.misc | re eight myths about national health insurance pt ii harelb math cornell edu misc activism progressive co moderator writes f o cus health eight myths about national health insurance pt ii an office visit that s in seattle is in vancouver canada that s because among other things they ve given their government power to bargain with doctors and hospitals over fees the difference in the litigation environment is reflected in the fees lack of defensive medicine and near absence of malpractice is really why we spend less using the most expensive approach of pure insurance in canada along with france and germany without hmo s the nyt has admitted that malpractice insurance fees are an order of magnitude lower in canada but doctors take home pay is almost equal to american doctors also minimal bureaucracy cos the system is so o o simple early march part of the deal for using the all insurance approach like the french and germans do hey why don t they criticize france and germany is it because too many people take french and german in college to make the accusations stick was to preserve the doctors independance since the provincial wings of the cma are the ones that go to bat when the fee schedule hikes are presented the politically bent doctors were just cackling when they realized the cma would grow in strength rather than diminish especially when unopposed unlike in socialized medicine approaches like britain s national health service you ve got to remember you ve got a waiting list as well but it s not as obvious if you re poor and you don t have insurance you don t go to a surgeon in the states you ration by ability to pay for non life threatening things market arguments adequately cover why certain procedures are in scarcer demand i have md friends who can t make a living as specialists back in manitoba not due to the insurance rates but because they won t get enough customers the cma medical monopoly s grip on doctors licencing as in the us aside so they must move to larger places however this does not refute debunking of waiting lines for urgent and routine care as has been done in the u s by consumers reports health policy studies cited by prof dennis e shea on usenet cnn nyt etc doug fierro has posted a nyt article from weeks ago about canada s health insurance approach on talk politics medicine there is one small error in the article not all of our hospitals are private wouldn t national health insurance mean that americans who are now fully insured might have to settle for less in canada provincial insurance covers all health costs except dental care eyeglasses prescription drugs ambulance service and private hospital rooms so many canadians do end up buying some private insurance a policy to cover all of these things runs about to a month of course the one thing to note is that in the canada france germany case private insurance offloaded the basic coverage to the public sector they realized they were keeping low risk high profit extra insurance for things like private semi private rooms vs ward accomodation dental glasses etc for corporate or personal benefits they ll have nothing to do with you if you want to be covered for basic care at that point they wouldn t even consider a voucher approach to broker the universal coverage and sell policies to make up the difference in the federal guidelines and market stuff wouldn t free care encourage people to run to the doctor for every ache and pain people who get free treatment do go to the doctor and hospital about a third more often than those who have to pay a share of their medical bills still canadians who pay nothing at the doctor s have a lower per person health bill than we do it is free in that there are no deductibles nor copayments two things which i advocate to make the canadian insurance look more like real health insurance which actually it is i know that when working in alberta ontario and quebec i was aware that i was paying for health insurance e g in toronto ohip fees were listed on my pay stub manitoba did not collect at paycheque time but only annually at income tax time built into the tax rate only fiscal naifs will proclaim that it s free along with the canadian left for that is part of their brainwashing agenda the french do have copayments though france magazine s summer edition has a fantastic presentation of their basic insurance coverage including a sample chart of copayment percentages for days you re covered for of the public hospital rate afterward with extra private insurance you can get into a private hospital and be covered for any differences beyond the public hospital rate the public insurance covers beyond days or the same cash amount for a private hospital and the difference is paid out of pocket or according to your supplementary private insurance over rds of french have some form of extra private insurance so the other of health costs in europe are out of private funds not gleaned from other taxes the gdp figures are combined public and private expenditures for total outlay using the same methods that yield the figure for the u s isn t the private health insurance industry just too big and powerful to kill dismantling the health segment of our insurance industry would be politically thorny in the quiet words of one advocate for a national plan some firms now sell more than billion in health insurance they d put up a hard fight not only has the industry grown eightfold since canada shut down its own health insurers but our government leaves politicians more open to lobbyists than does canada s parliamentary system health insurance does exist in canada and in western europe its just that it doesn t cover basic care you can opt out in canada and germany but you ll have to go uninsured as a result because there are too few other people that do so i e no market when private insurance realized how much money they d make without the risks involved in basic insurance e g neurosurgery versus deluxe amenities e g having to call granada tv to replace a rental set on the fritz in someone s private hospital room they started to pat themselves on the back for their social responsibility in quebec last spring a consortium of private insurers publicly warned against any thoughts of privatizing routine low cost parts of that province s public health insurance plan gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
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10,686 | talk.politics.misc | re f o cus health one payer system b s ujsnyder msuvx memstvx bitnet mizzou missouri edu writes there is never any mention of how much working canadians have to pay in taxes for their free health care system oh really i know that more than of an average daily worker s salary goes towards taxes in canada mainly because of this free health care it looks like we are pretty lucky so far i know that when working in alberta ontario and quebec i was aware that i was paying for health insurance e g in toronto ohip fees were listed seperately on my pay stub while i m not the only canadian who favours lower taxes and cutbacks in spending health insurance isn t on the table see our polls a better one might be the july st polls conducted for macleans our major english newsmagazine by decima research decima president allen gregg is considered one of the world s top poll researchers and mulroney s conservatives have relied on him to keep in power in the face of impossible election situations i haven t had a chance to see this year s version due to our library but previous ones before the americans started their assault and disinformation had shown satisfaction at and switching to an american all private system had support within statistical noise the decima polls are considered definitive even the new reform party a breakoff of traditionalists from the conservatives with a mildly libertarian faction hold our public health insurance as an untouchable but that just a few people have to be reminded that it s not free the average canadian european is more fiscally naive than their american counterparts on issues like these personally i feel that the universal health insurance approach used in canada france and germany paying to private health providers in a nominally free market not unlike america s minus hmo s depends a lot on values in those societies different from the u s the basic health needs for life are not viewed as market but the insurance does allow the market to address that basic health care is not viewed on the level of ownership of a vcr as americans would see it plenty of room is left for expenditure of private funds as extra insurance or as lastly there were noises about how the canadian system was not containing costs but in fact their system is currently bankrupt please explain this one hopefully in a way that canadian readers besides myself can understand and concur gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
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10,687 | talk.politics.misc | clinton president s radio interview in pittsburgh the white house office of the press secretary pittsburgh pennsylvania for immediate release april interview of the president by michael whitely of kdka am radio pittsburgh pittsburgh international airport pittsburgh pennsylvania a m edt q for everyone listening on kdka radio i m mike whitely kdka radio news we re here at the pittsburgh international airport and with me is the president of the united states bill clinton and i d like to welcome you to the area and to kdka the president thank you mike glad to be here q there are a lot of things we d like to talk about in the brief amount of time we have but some news is just breaking from los angeles i guess the entire country has been kind of holding their breath wondering what s going to happen in the trial of the four los angeles police officers we just heard that two of those officers the sergeant sergeant koon and officer powell have been found guilty and two officers have been found not guilty it s a situation that s been building for over a year since the first trial and now this trial and this verdict and i wonder what your thoughts are this morning on how you see the situation in los angeles in connection with your administration and what you re trying to do the president well first of all i think the american people should know that this trial in my judgment is a tribute to the work and judgment of the jury as well as to the efforts of the federal government in developing the case the law under which the officers were tried is a complex one the standards of proof are complicated the jury decided that they would convict the sergeant who was responsible for supervising the officers and the officer who on the film did most of the beating the jury acquitted an officer who kicked rodney king but also plainly tried to shield him from some blows and another officer who was a rookie no one knows exactly why they did what they did but it appears that they really tried to do justice here they acknowledged that his civil rights were violated and i think that the american people should take a lot of pride in that but i hope now we can begin to look ahead and focus on three things first of all the importance of trying to bring this country together and not violate the civil rights of any american secondly the importance of renewing our fight against crime i think it s important to recognize that in the poorest areas of los angeles and many other cities in this country people may be worried about police abuse but they re even more worried about crime it s time that we renewed our efforts to go to community policing put more police officers on the street pass the brady bill that would require a waiting period before people could buy a handgun and do some other things to reduce the vulnerability of our people to violence and drugs and the last point i d like to make is it seems to me that we have got to rededicate ourselves to the economic revitalization of our cities and other economically distressed areas if you just think about it if everybody in los angeles who wanted a job had one i don t think we d have quite as many problems as we do and i laid out a very ambitious program in the campaign to try to bring private investment and public investment to bear in our cities i have dispatched the commerce secretary ron brown to california to try to come up with some strategies for that state because it s our biggest state with our highest unemployment rate which could then be applied around the country i want to talk to him and to the attorney general to the new head of the naacp to reverend jackson and to several other people and then i ll decide where to go from here with regard to los angeles and the other cities of the country q let s talk about what brings you to the pittsburgh area today there have been i guess there s been a lot of discussion on capitol hill about your stimulus package you ve been locked in a battle with the gop yesterday as you said earlier in your radio address you made some moves to break that gridlock what brings you to pittsburgh in particular to allegheny county in particular to pennsylvania with that battle the president well there are two reasons first of all pittsburgh allegheny county and pennsylvania supported me in the last election because they wanted a new direction in economic policy we have passed our overall economic plan it gives the country a very different budget for the next five years than we ve had in the previous we reduced the deficit and at the same time increased investment in jobs and education and health care in the things that will make us a stronger country but in addition to that i asked the congress in the short run to spend a little more money a modest amount of money to create another half million jobs in the next year and a half to try to cut the unemployment rate by a half a percent but also to try to spark job creation in the private sector more the plan passed the house it has the support of a majority of the senate at the present time all the republican senators as a bloc are filibustering the bill that is they won t let it come to a vote i believe that senator specter would like to vote for the bill and i believe that senator dole the republican leader has put a lot of pressure on a lot of the republicans to stay hitched and they re all saying that this bill increases the deficit it doesn t this bill is well below the spending targets that congress approved including the republicans for this year this bill is paid for by budget cuts in the next five years this bill is designed to give a jump start to the economy and i must say a lot of the republican senators that are holding it up when mr bush was president voted for billions of dollars of emergency spending of just this kind much of it was totally unrelated to creating jobs so what i m trying to do is to break this logjam i ve held out an olive branch i ve offered a compromise but i think that we ought to try to put some more americans to work right now to show that we re changing the direction of the country and that s the purpose of the bill q have you been in touch with senator specter or his office lately the president well we ve been trying to talk regularly to through my white house congressional liaison operation to the senators that we think are open to this senator specter senator d amato from new york senator jeffords from vermont senator hatfield from oregon and five or six others whom we believe know we need more jobs in this economy and know that we are paying for this with budget cuts over the life of the budget i presented you know it has a lot of appeal to say well we ve got a big deficit we shouldn t increase it more but the truth is that we are paying for this with budget cuts in the whole life of the budget over the next few years and more importantly we have this program well below the spending targets that congress has already approved for this year and they ve done this for years with the republicans voting for it many republicans voting for it for things that weren t nearly as important as putting the american people back to work so i just hope that this doesn t become a political issue it ought to just be about the people of this country and the need for jobs q i have some questions from people who supported you and some people who are skeptical about your administration it has to do with their hopes and also with their fears a lot of people who supported you and voted for you in pennsylvania i think some of them are now saying we re glad we got him in the white house but now look at this incredible process he has to go through look at these problems look at this gridlock and they re beginning to wonder is this going to work can you pull it off and of course your skeptics are saying well i knew it was going to be like this the president well what i would i d ask people first of all to remember that we are frankly moving very fast the budget resolution that the congress passed is the fastest they have ever passed a budget resolution ever in history setting out the next five year budget targets so we are moving really rapidly and we ve got them working on political reform welfare reform health care reform a whole wide range of things but it s a big operation you can t expect to turn it around overnight it took years to produce the conditions which led to the victory i received from the people in november and we can t turn it around in days but i think we re making real real progress i would urge the people not to get discouraged we re not going to win every battle and not everything is going to happen overnight but we are definitely moving and changing things q thank you very much the president of the united states bill clinton here live at pittsburgh international airport i m mike whitely kdka news end a m edt
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10,688 | talk.politics.misc | clinton president s radio address the white house office of the press secretary pittsburgh pennslyvania for immediate release april radio address to the nation by the president pittsburgh international airport pittsburgh pennsylvania a m edt the president good morning my voice is coming to you this morning through the facilities of the oldest radio station in america kdka in pittsburgh i m visiting the city to meet personally with citizens here to discuss my plans for jobs health care and the economy but i wanted first to do my weekly broadcast with the american people i m told this station first broadcast in when it reported that year s presidential elections over the past seven decades presidents have found ways to keep in touch with the people from whistle stop tours to fire side chats to the bus tour that i adopted along with vice president gore in last year s campaign every saturday morning i take this time to talk with you my fellow americans about the problems on your minds and what i m doing to try and solve them it s my way of reporting to you and of giving you a way to hold me accountable you sent me to washington to get our government and economy moving after years of paralysis and policy and a bad experiment with trickle down economics you know how important it is for us to make bold comprehensive changes in the way we do business we live in a competitive global economy nations rise and fall on the skills of their workers the competitiveness of their companies the imagination of their industries and the cooperative experience and spirit that exists between business labor and government although many of the economies of the industrialized world are now suffering from slow growth they ve made many of the smart investments and the tough choices which our government has for too long ignored that s why many of them have been moving ahead and too many of our people have been falling behind we have an economy today that even when it grows is not producing new jobs we ve increased the debt of our nation by four times over the last years and we don t have much to show for it we know that wages of most working people have stopped rising that most people are working longer work weeks and that too many families can no longer afford the escalating cost of health care but we also know that given the right tools the right incentives and the right encouragement our workers and businesses can make the kinds of products and profits our economy needs to expand opportunity and to make our communities better places to live in many critical products today americans are the low cost high quality producers our task is to make sure that we create more of those kinds of jobs just two months ago i gave congress my plan for long term jobs and economic growth it changes the old priorities in washington and puts our emphasis where it needs to be on people s real needs on increasing investments and jobs and education on cutting the federal deficit on stopping the waste which pays no dividends and redirecting our precious resources toward investment that creates jobs now and lays the groundwork for robust economic growth in the future these new directions passed the congress in record time and created a new sense of hope and opportunity in our country then the jobs plan i presented to congress which would create hundreds of thousands of jobs most of them in the private sector in and passed the house of representatives it now has the support of a majority of the united states senate but it s been held up by a filibuster of a minority in the senate just senators they blocked a vote that they know would result in the passage of our bill and the creation of jobs the issue isn t politics the issue is people millions of americans are waiting for this legislation and counting on it counting on us in washington but the jobs bill has been grounded by gridlock i know the american people are tired of business as usual and politics as usual i know they don t want us to spin or wheels they want the recovery to get moving so i have taken a first step to break this gridlock and gone the extra mile yesterday i offered to cut the size of this plan by percent from billion to billion it s not what i d hoped for with million americans looking for full time work i simply can t let the bill languish when i know that even a compromise bill will mean hundreds of thousands of jobs for our people the mandate is to act to achieve change and move the country forward by taking this initiative in the face of an unrelenting senate talkathon i think we can respond to your mandate and achieve a significant portion of our original goals first we want to keep the programs as much as possible that are needed to generate jobs and meet human needs including highway and road construction summer jobs for young people immunization for children construction of waste water sites and aid to small businesses we also want to keep funding for extended unemployment compensation benefits for people who have been unemployed for a long time because the economy isn t creating jobs second i ve recommended that all the other programs in the bill be cut across the board by a little more than percent and third i ve recommended a new element in this program to help us immediately start our attempt to fight against crime by providing million for cities and towns to rehire police officers who lost their jobs during the recession and put them back to work protecting our people i m also going to fight for a tough crime bill because the people of this country need it and deserve it now the people who are filibustering this bill the republican senators say they won t vote for it because it increases deficit spending because there s extra spending this year that hasn t already been approved that sounds reasonable doesn t it here s what they don t say this program is more than paid for by budget cuts over my five year budget and this budget is well within the spending limits already approved by the congress this year it s amazing to me that many of these same senators who are filibustering the bill voted during the previous administration for billions of dollars of the same kind of emergency spending and much of it was not designed to put the american people to work this is not about deficit spending we have offered a plan to cut the deficit this is about where your priorities are on people or on politics keep in mind that our jobs bill is paid for dollar for dollar it is paid for by budget cuts and it s the soundest investment we can now make for ourselves and our children i urge all americans to take another look at this jobs and investment program to consider again the benefits for all of us when we ve helped make more american partners working to ensure the future of our nation and the strength of our economy you know if every american who wanted a job had one we wouldn t have a lot of the other problems we have in this country today this bill is not a miracle it s a modest first step to try to set off a job creation explosion in this country again but it s a step we ought to take and it is fully paid for over the life of our budget tell your lawmakers what you think tell them how important the bill is if it passes we ll all be winners good morning and thank you for listening end a m edt
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10,689 | talk.politics.misc | re new study out on gay percentage in article apr romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu theodore a kaldis writes so one should properly write who s promiscuous the answer is many homosexuals are not quite the answer is many homosexuals heterosexual and bisexuals are but then many are not or more simply lots of people are o tzoq i am a good speller i am c a t dog o o tzoq uwo ca b a t rhode island v o redekop obelix gaul csd uwo ca junyer bear bernoulli would have been content to die had he but known such a cos phi
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10,690 | talk.politics.misc | re help fight the clinton administration s invasion of your privacy in article blue cis pitt edu cjp pitt edu casimir j palowitch writes the clinton administration wants to manage your use of digital encryption this includes a proposal which would limit your use of encryption to a standard developed by the nsa the technical details of which would remain classified with the government this cannot be allowed to happen it is a bit unfair to call blame the clinton administration alone this initiative was underway under the bush administration it is basically a bipartisan effort of the establishment demopublicans and republicrats the same bipartisan effort that brought the s l scandal and bcci etc gerald
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10,691 | talk.politics.misc | re nc vs hunt marine gay bashing in wilmington nc verdict jon atlas mitre org j e shum writes in article c g su k wolves durham nc us wolfe wolves durham nc us g wo a sad day for civil rights but typical of nc unfortunately if it is typical for the principle of reasonable doubt to be upheld in north carolina then i would count that in the state s favor reasonable doubt dates back to human rights we are now in the time of civil rights civil rights are issued by the state with whatever strings attached they choose as the grantor of said rights and if that means that verdicts are determined by the needs of the state rather than by guilt or innocence in a traditional sense so be it being subjective rather than objective may make it harder to anticipate what is right and you may be sacrificed for being wrong inadvertantly once in a while but that really is a small price to pay for the common good don t you think cutter gloster via mind org chris all jobs are easy to the person who doesn t have to do them holt s law
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10,692 | talk.politics.misc | re new study out on gay percentage in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu ryan c scharfy writes in article c k lc cyf murdoch acc virginia edu lfoard hopper virginia edu la wrence c foard writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes from the santa rosa cal press democrat april p b male sex survey gay activity low a new natonal study on male sexual behavior the most thorough examination of american men s sexual practices published since the kinsey report more than four decades ago shows about percent of the men surveyed had engaged in homosexual sex and percent considered themselves exclusively homosexual the figures on homosexuality in the study released wednesday by the alan guttmacher institute are significantly lower than the percent figure that has been part of the conventional wisdom since it was published in the kinsey report so what so there are less gays then the gays claim last i checked i was one person i haven t even been elected as a representative for gaydom should i ascribe every thing you say as representing every member of the straight community it will be interesting to see the reaction when million queers gather in washington dc after all if there are only million of us then this is an event unprecidented in history dream on abortion and african american civil rights rallies don t even bring in half of that thats the point if there are several million queers in dc you had better start wondering about the validity of the study join the pythagorean reform church repent of your evil irrational numbers and bean eating ways accept into your heart call the pythagorean reform church bbs at
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10,693 | talk.politics.misc | re new study out on gay percentage in article apr romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu theodore a kaldis writes in article c k lc cyf murdoch acc virginia edu lfoard hopper virginia edu lawrence c foard writes so what so this bolsters the contention that many homosexuals are liars so if this study is proved wrong then it proves that heterosexuals are liars unlike the propaganda spouted by the far right the ten percent figure was backed up by the best study available at the time its hardly certain that this new study is correct since it hasn t even been out for enough time for any double checking to happen the alan guttmacher institute btw is funded by planned parenthood so it hardly qualifies as a bastion of conservatism or of family values of course if they had found then it would be invalid because it was funded by planned parenthood it will be interesting to see the reaction when million queers gather in washington dc after all if there are only million of us then this is an event unprecidented in history this preassumes that million queers will show up on april th there won t be anywhere near that many go ahead make my day promote that number that way it will surely be a much greater embarrassment and slap in the face to homosexual activists when the crowds are much smaller even if its only one million the point still stands even getting th of a given population in one place would be unprecidented if even million show up in dc it will raise serious doubts about this study or indicate a resolve unprecidented in human history btw have you noticed that even slick willie isn t going to be in town that day he isn t the target of the march nor do presidents often speak at civil rights marchs of course it would have been nice however the republicans and conservative democrats would do well to take notice join the pythagorean reform church repent of your evil irrational numbers and bean eating ways accept into your heart call the pythagorean reform church bbs at the above smacks of antihispanic bigotry this is quite amusing obviously you know nothing about the history of math join the pythagorean reform church repent of your evil irrational numbers and bean eating ways accept into your heart call the pythagorean reform church bbs at
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10,694 | talk.politics.misc | re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article apr rigel tamu edu gmw rigel tamu edu mr grinch writes in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes this is a strawman argument and fails on several grounds in this case limited and big government are not defined i would point out that lebanon somalia and the former yugoslavia are by some definitions nations with limited government while the us canada and nations in western europe where people would rather live are often pointed out as nations with big government from a libertarian point of view well let me help by explaining the difference between a linited government and a failed government a limited government has its powers clearly circumscribed but is fully capable of enforcing its decisions within those circumscribed areas a failed government is incapable of enforcing its decisions except sporadicly two completely different beasts of course one again faces the question of how one circumscribes government power and keeps it circumscribed in a complex society when it is in the interest of neither capitalists nor consumers to refrain from using government power for their own ends but apart from that little conundrum it would seem that a society with a failed government would be an ideal setting for libertarian ideals to be implemented now why do you suppose that never seems to occur the argument is not between those who want limited government and those who want unlimited government it is between those who believe government regulation in a capitalist economy serves worthwhile ends and those who believe such regulation is neither desirable on empirical grounds nor justifiable on ideological grounds regulation is such a vauge word i wouldn t call it vague i d call it elastic all regulation is not necessarily the same by opposing all government regulation some libertarians treat every system from a command economy to those that regulate relatively free markets as identical that s one reason many of the rest of us find their analysis to be simplistic jsh mr grinch steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls t r hofferbert ma bell
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10,695 | talk.politics.misc | re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article apr rigel tamu edu gmw rigel tamu edu mr grinch writes in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes on a case by case basis the cost benefit ratio of government regulation is obviously worthwhile the libertarian agenda however does not call for this assessment it assumes that the costs of regulation of any kind always outweigh its benefits this approach avoids all sorts of difficult analysis but it strikes many of the rest of us as dogmatic to say the least i assume you mean that analyzing the cost benefit ratio of government regulation on a case by case basis is worthwhile let me suggest that this is not an option regulators regulate it s what they do i m not sure why you don t consider it an option no one suggests that such analysis should be left to regulators in fact the re inventing government movement provides just such a cost benefit approach to the analysis of public spending libertarians would do well to learn more about it it might be possible to pass an amendment which would prevent any liscensing laws from being valid assuming you could convince people that it would overall be a good idea eliminating the liscensing laws which serve no good purpose the vast majority of them while maintaining the worthwhile ones assuming there are any is not feasible sorry but it strikes me that it is the only feasible approach what is not feasible is a wholesale attack on all government regulation and licensing that treats cutting hair and practicing medicine as equivalent tasks i have no objection to an analysis of medical care education national defense or local police that suggests a free market can provide a more effective efficient means of accomplishing social objectives than is provided through statist approaches with some notable exceptions however i do not see such nitty gritty worthwhile analysis being carried out by self professed libertarians jsh i note that the above examples tend to be among the few government areas likely to win some approval among libertarians anyway actually the only areas of public spending above that strike me as generating substantial support among libertarians are police and defense it is an interesting aside that as committed as libertarians claim to be to a principle of non coercion the only areas of public spending that they frequently support involve hiring people with guns hmmm the most objectionable government expenditures are entitlements which also are the biggest certain individuals will suggest that these should be considered defense on the grounds that they are a sort of danegeld to would be revolutionaries but i personally don t feel we have much to fear from an alliance of geezers and unwed mothers maybe i ve led too sheltered a life perhaps you have may i suggest that you consider that revolutionaries frequently generate support by acting as protectors of geezers mothers and children governments that ignore such people on the grounds that we don t have much to fear from them do so at their own peril jsh mr grinch steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls t r hofferbert ma bell
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10,696 | talk.politics.misc | re propaganda re re fillibuster in article c otox bji dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes in article veal utkvm utk edu veal utkvm utk edu david veal writes in article c n wh izv dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes or are they simply propogranda we can t know what phill really means because he s obviously using arguments designed to convince i make no secret of what i am up to i have stated explicitly in posts that i am a political propagandist on numerous occasions anyone posting to this group who is not probably has the wrong group for example i have on numerous occasions stated quite clearly that i beleive that certain factions of the gun lobby are the worst possible advocates of their cause and i am prepared to do anything in my power to provide them with a platform because they can convince people far better than i could hope that many people with a fixation on lethal weapons are dangerous and derranged if you happen to know a political position which does not have people advocating it who do more harm than good please point it out some people have even accused me of inventing such advocates purely for the purpose of having them trash a set of political views in fact this would be a futile tactic because i could never hope to invent a character as dangerous as sybok athena edu a man who i quite seriously believe to be mentaly ill and a potential psychopath unfortunately the local sherifs office have informed me that they are unable to act untill he attacks someone one of the advantages and draw backs of requiring proof on the part of the government before they may take action against citizens and part of the reason some of us believe weapons should be available so if you were to ask me what is the point that i am trying to make from this current argument on the absolute sanctity of the us constitution what would i answer we are not arguing the absolute sanctity of the u s constitution in fact the fillibuster we re talking about isn t in the constitution i objected to your suggestion that the senate wasn t intended to exercise the power it was clearly given firstly i see that the current us political scene like the uk political scene has become tied to special interests rather than chase the convenient caricatures put about by the media and polititians themselves for this gay rights cmapaigners environmentalists zionists i e jews foreign lobbyists whatever voting power they have etc i sugest that you look at who is really benefiting the inevitable conclusion is that it is the major corporations owned by the ultra wealthy that have benefited regan and bush created what can only be described as a welfare state for the rich i ll point out again that reagan only had a republican majority in the senate during his first term and his coalition in the house came apart at about the same time bush never had any real support in congress the real point is that everybody everywhere got their pork from the big corporations to the guy i saw last night leaving a convenience store with an armful of junk food he d bought with food stamps he spent more in food stamps on junk than i make in a week and i m not on government assitance money was diverted from programs addressing social needs and poured into the weapons industry in the form of cost plus profits contracts lessee let s pull out the old almanac in total u s government budget outlays were billion dollars in est they were trillion dollars an increase of approx billion dollars in national defense cost billion dollars in it was billion dollars and increase of billion dollars that leaves an increase of billion dollars unaccounted for this represented an increase of in income security which includes retirement programs housing assitance and unemployment benefits and i believe welfare cost billion dollars in it was billion dollars or more than national defense started this represented an increase of in the federal government spent billion dollars on medicare in they spent billion dollars an increase of in the feds spent billion dollars on housing credits and subsidies of that like in it was billion in health care services and research was billion dollars in it was billion dollars agriculture up billion to billion science up billion to billion resource conservation up billion to billion education up billion to billion veteran benefits up billion to billion trasnportation up billion to billion about the only things i see which was seriously decreased was under the energy category primarily under supply and community development in the area of disaster relief and between the two of them represent a loss of less than billion dollars where was this huge diversion in order to rectify this situation there must be constitutional revision not that s a stretch if the current government was pushed by the president to create this mess wouldn t one expect it to begin to equalize once the pressure is gone secondly the form of this revision must take account of the changed circumsatnces of the role of the federal government only assuming that the new role is a positive role we want to continue i see very little positive about it the constitution cannot be used to frustrate the democratic process the constitution was designed to frustrate the democratic process so that the voters could be absolutely sure they were getting what they wanted by the time it happened nor do i see putting the brakes on the democratic process an inherently bad thing califronia s riding the edge and every time they pull their ballot initiative nonsense it gets worse if the peoplr want to have welfare spending by the federal government they will have it sometimes or perhaps most of the time the people should be told no and pointed to their local government attempting to prevent this through constitutional trickery only leads to the constitution being brought into disrepute phill would you do me the very great favor of repeating that in talk politics guns methods will always be found to bypass such provisions and once the government gets used to bypassing those provisions they will bypass the others up to the first ammendment cute we can eliminate violations of the law by eliminating the law this is a major reason why the right to own guns should be excluded the implication that this right is equal to the right to free speech is dangerous free speech alone is dangerous phill people know that mass ownership of lethal weapons causes thousands of murders a year the dangerous conclusion they may reach is that the first ammendment may also be the same dangerous mistake ok phill all you gotta show me is a clear pattern of reduction in homicide rates across several countries and that ll be it not current mind you reduction note however that this is not the slippery slope argument it is because the right freedom of speech has been chained to the privilege to own weaponry that the danger arises the advocates of this pivilege must not be allowed to chain freedom of speech to their cause such that if they fall freedom of speech falls as well such actions are not the actions of people genuinely interested in freedom who s chaining anything to freedom of speech by calling it a freedom thirdly and most importantly i want to discover a mechanism wherby i can engender intellectual debate as opposed to totemic debate i consider the grave threat to civilisation to be the loss of the ability to reason about the political debate at anything other than the superficial level the objection i raise to your basing your case entirely on the assertion of the supremacy of the us constitution is that the currency of your argument is limited to the currency of the totem upon which it is based the danger of totems is that they can be reinterpreted in different ways by different people phill you re a master of subtly changing the subject i haven t based my argument against raw democracy on the constitution i ve tried to explain why it isn t a good idea the only time i ve referred to the constitution is to point out it doesn t contain the restrictions on the veto and the senate you appear to believe were meant but just didn t make it in there the constitution doesn t contain the fillibuster rule i only believe that the rule is a good idea you cn t dismiss that as venerating the constitution because it isn t in the constitution david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
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10,697 | talk.politics.misc | re race and violence joe as usual this issue of dysfunction of bad values of messed up culture is easily embraced by non african americans when it comes to explaining problems in our community from your post you apparently find the idea that something is wrong with african americans value wise culture wise or something very appealing i never cease to be amazed at how eager non african americans are to embrace theories about our problems which basically assert that something is wrong with us the socio economic factors which we know help to produce high crime levels like poverty which exists among us in large proportion i mean when it comes to discussion of african american problems we somehow become exempt from all these types of factors and the problem is laid at the doorstep of some neboulous dysfunction we supposedly have but nobody attributes crime amongst white americans to dysfunction no that has socioeconomic factors to it but for africa americans its gotta be a dysfunction basically i think this tendency for non african americans to believe that something is wrong with us exists because non african americans don t want to deal with the possiblility that the society is deeply biased against african americans and that this is about of the problem it could not possible be that the society is so deeply racist and structured against us that this has a very effective negative effect on us no something is wrong with us non african americans are quick to disregard what we have to say because they are so busy trying to find something wrong with us instead of taking a good hard look at the thing we say are doing us damage i would get angry if it werent so damn typical peace aaron
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10,698 | talk.politics.misc | re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes of course one again faces the question of how one circumscribes government power and keeps it circumscribed in a complex society when it is in the interest of neither capitalists nor consumers to refrain from using government power for their own ends but apart from that little conundrum without having a complete answer to this question i should think it obvious that the first step should be to convince people this would be a desirable result there are still quite a lot of people who feel that the command economies of eastern europe failed due to corruption rather than essential weaknesses of caommand economies and you still have a majority in this nation that favors keeping unenforced and unenforcible laws on the books in order to send a signal it would seem that a society with a failed government would be an ideal setting for libertarian ideals to be implemented now why do you suppose that never seems to occur i fail to see why you should feel this way in the first place constant combat isn t particularly conducive to intellectual theorizing also they tend to get invaded before they can come to anything like a stable society anyway regulation is such a vauge word i wouldn t call it vague i d call it elastic all regulation is not necessarily the same by opposing all government regulation some libertarians treat every system from a command economy to those that regulate relatively free markets as identical that s one reason many of the rest of us find their analysis to be simplistic umm is there any distinction between vague and elastic in this context aside from one having a more positive connotation than the other at any rate we ve been through all this before steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls t r hofferbert ma bell incidentally this is a libertarian newsgroup you can get away with saying bullshit here you re welcome mr grinch
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10,699 | talk.politics.misc | re to be or not to be a disaster in article philc ls a mea netcom com phil netcom com phil ronzone writes in article vega iii com rhockins enrico tmc edu russ writes in article philc ht h netcom com phil netcom com phil ronzone writes not at all you are apparently just another member of the religious left not at all i am not a member of the religious left right or even center in fact i don t consider myself very religious at all this will probably result in flames now in fact phil you should leave religion out of it it just clouds the issue the religous left worships trees rivers the planet and hates people and the religious right worships engines smokestacks landfills and hates people what does this name calling have to do with anything you are claiming about the truth of environmental disaster nothing that i have read in this thread nor heard from anyone i have talked to would suggest to me that people fit the definition you give of the religious left come off it phil a prime motivation for protecting our environment is so that we people can continue to live in it healthily we just disagree on what is necessary to maintaining a healthy environment for people show me all these environmental disasters most of them aren t and the natural disasters we have had individually far outweigh the man made ones russ s response deleted to save space i guess you missed the newspaper articles this week about exxon presenting evidnce through the astm on the issue of the valdez incident seems that valdez is mostly recovered despite the religious left s cries of hundreds of years what they have already repaired that old hulk wow i suppose you mean the alaskan shores that were devastated by the valdez accident i haven t seen the articles what do they say exactly has mostly all the ocean and shore life returned the sands are mostly as clean as they were before the microbial samples are mostly back to a normal balance the fish and fowl populations have mostly returned what then again the relgious left claimed it would take yearsb to put out the kuwait oil fires you should face the facts love canal was not and is not an environmental disaster nor even a problem nor is times beach and tmi and acid rain killing trees and not a problem would you move to three mile island i would imagine there is some cheap property available the naturally occurring catastrophic events disasters that destroy property ie hurricanes tornados earthquakes do not usually leave toxic wastes that prevent people from re building their lives there the man made disasters oil spills toxic dumping radioactive waste dispersions cause death and make an area unliveable far beyond the initial event there are actually people that still believe love canal was some kind of environmental disaster weird eh these opinions are mine and you can t have em but i ll rent em cheap douglas young dyoung ecst csuchico edu i don t know why but i seem to expect a serious discussion on the net
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