It&#x27;s very difficult to have an open discussion between dozens of parties because every discussion is subject to tactics that dissuade an exploration of the topic. The pigeonholing of &quot;challenge&quot; vs. &quot;offense&quot; into separate boxes of &quot;good&quot; and &quot;bad&quot; is one such mechanism, as it premises the audience and opponents to be professionals engaged in a formal discussion, not laypeople who are there because they&#x27;re curious and want to be entertained and cheer for &quot;their&quot; side and feel good about themselves. The ground truth is that you keep returning to Reddit or HN because it&#x27;s fun enough not to quit, not because it does you any good. You can come up with all kinds of rationales why it actually does you some good, but the underlying mechanism making me write this comment is that there is a game to play here, and it&#x27;s not driven by my sense of virtue or collaborative spirit.<p>Skilled debate in a venue like Reddit requires an understanding of esotericism, of not simply laying out facts and implications based on your own assumptions, but presenting a fascinating puzzle to the reader that leads them to challenge their own assumptions without being challenged by anyone in particular. When successful, such a puzzle glides beneath the surface tropes of the discussion, presenting the perspective without provoking hostilities. The karma system does not reward this very well, as those carefully crafted puzzles tend to get middling scores, while simple agreement, rationalization arguments(why your assumptions are right and the critics are wrong, from Someone Smart), and congratulatory joking trigger the instant upvote response. But putting in the effort into that dialogue is essential to engaging the community.