<div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=50216.msg2361257#msg2361257">Quote from: Odin on 20-10-2009, 21:44:25</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">The thing you're still not seeing...this game is not all about dealing damage and being a super effective character. Most things in the game are made for a party. More over the characters are meant to be unique in personality</blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div>Except you don't need a system for that.  All across this site, people create characters with interesting stories and personalities without so much as looking at dice and numbers.<br/><br/>D&D is a roleplaying<em>game</em>.  And<em>yes</em>there<em>is</em>a party.  A party that presumably wants to<em>do</em>things, things that get bigger, harder, and more spectacular with each passing level, and the party and should have members who can<em>do</em>things in a manner appropriate to their level, whether it's skills or spells or what have you.  A character who does not have the mechanical ability to do things in a manner appropriate to a level X party is a problem.  A character who cannot do anything well within the confines of the game, who can only achieve anything meaningful by going outside the rules, is effectively refusing to play the game we all came together and agreed to play.  Mechanical efficacy is important.  Particularly if the character is<em>supposed</em>to be good at something, but really isn't; at that point, it's a<em>major</em>roleplaying fault.<br/><br/>What's more, this party?  They're trusting each other with their lives.  If someone doesn't have any ability to contribute meaningfully, yet takes an equal part of the gold and the glory, it becomes a major question of why they're even getting dragged around in the first place.  "She has a great ass," isn't much of an answer when Benny's trusting her with her life, unless that great ass is being leveraged into some awesome diplomatic skills.<br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=50216.msg2361257#msg2361257">Quote from: Odin on 20-10-2009, 21:44:25</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">there's only so many feats and choices and if every Melee class is ineffective, what would you propose people take. I can tell you right now that most people are divided on Tome of Battle (I don't even allow it, or Psionics in my games)</blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div>Conventional melee gets systematically screwed by the game.  There are only two options.  1) Twink the Hell out of conventional melee so that it's actually functional.  2) Use unconventional melee.  TWF Rogues and Scouts, with all their extra die of damage, or gish builds (Cleric).<em>Or</em>Tome of Battle.  People are primarily divided on it because they can't accept that conventional melee gets screwed, no matter how incompetent the classes may be at their jobs out of the box past low levels.<br/><br/>Tome of Battle is not a melee supplement.  It's a melee replacement.  It's not overpowered; it's the book that makes melee<em>work</em>by default without having having to twink out to high heavens and use one of a scant handful of tricks and paths that actually work in an extremely limited capacity.  It lets melee types stand in the party as actual equals on their own merits, where they can actually contribute meaningfully and equally and stand next to the mages, even if they're still overshadowed by 'em.  It's no more broken or abusable or breakable than core, and if you're going to start throwing out books because of abusable material, the first book to go in a fair trial is<em>absolutely</em>the PHB, as it's just about the most unbalanced and broken sourcebook ever released.<br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=50216.msg2361257#msg2361257">Quote from: Odin on 20-10-2009, 21:44:25</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">The thing is we're all level 1, any Fighter can deal decent damage to make it until their build takes shape.</blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div>The problem is, Fighter builds<em>don't</em>take shape.  They fall farther and farther behind with every level until they're rendered useless.  The vast majority of conventional melee prestige classes don't break the paradigm, and without a real running start, there ain't many conventional melee types that don't collapse post haste.