<div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=50216.msg2358940#msg2358940">Quote from: Odin on 20-10-2009, 03:47:32</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">I really don't care much for balance, I'm more about specialization. I have seen Fighter Builds that at level 1 are pretty much tanks for parties of level 4. Specialization is why my RPG game characters in games like Champions of Norrath are so strong. I make no attempt at Balance and basically play to the strengths of my class. When I make an Archer all they're getting is DEX and a little INT and when I make a Barb all they're getting is STR. <br/><br/>Also, I suggest using the Fighter class from Pathfinder, not hard to adapt and much more balanced.<br/></blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div>You misunderstand the meaning of "balance."  You can have a balanced specialist.  What matters is that all characters bring something legitimately and appropriately useful to the party, whether that's a pile of good skills with little to no combat ability, a mess of utility spells, one spectacular damage-dealing trick, extreme versatility, so long as it's power enough to contribute in a meaningful way across all levels.<br/><br/>At level 1, it is indeed easy for even a crappy Fighter to do that, but as levels go up, they fall behind<em>fast</em>.  Hence the issue.  Yes, a level 1 Fighter can easily be really good, if they're built moderately well, but a level 6 Fighter?  Level 10?  Level 16?  They lag farther and farther behind the classes that are actually good out of the box if they're not built with some real foresight.<br/><br/>And the Pathfinder Fighter isn't much better.<br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=50216.msg2358974#msg2358974">Quote from: CWand on 20-10-2009, 03:55:54</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">no offense intended but feats make for a much more adaptable character sheet then any special ability.  your biggest strength is your stances and maneuvers right? Katina?  Using Martial study and Martial stance fighter feats (yes they have the 1 next to em meaning they are fighter optional feats) they can have a stance and maneuver at level one.  in fact by level 20 they can have 19 to your 17 maneuvers and stances known assuming you don't invest in bonus ones on your own.  On top of that they can gain other feats far more regularly. including such fiendishly clever feats as Karmic strike, Ranged sunder, and although its not listed as a fighter feat i believe bounding assault would also qualify under the nature of fighter feats. Fighters aren't as weak a class as you think they are.  By far their actually one of the most adaptive class out there capable of qualifying for more prestige classes then almost any other class.  I'd appreciate it if you did not insult other player's sheets, when you don't know what their long term goals are for that character.<br/></blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div>The problem is, the feats<em>don't</em>compensate for the lack of class features, unless you<em>really</em>twink out and choose them with the utmost care, in which case there are only a handful of paths where enough feats even<em>exist</em>to make a coherent Fighter.  And branching out doesn't do them any favors, either; a Fighter who invests in both melee and ranged feats is liable to, at level 14, have melee abilities through feats appropriate to an eighth-level character and ranged abilities through feats appropriate to an eighth-level character, while everyone else has assorted abilities appropriate to fourteenth-level characters.  And the way feats work, you  essentially take the ones that benefit you most first, and every subsequent feat contributes less and less, while actual class features are supposed to get better and better; beyond the first few, the bonus feats become pretty much meaningless, save for a scant few.<br/><br/>And qualifying for prestige classes is not a strength; it's still the case that the class stinks on its own merits.  It's a good dip, but nothing more.  When a class's big draw is that you can stop taking it sooner, there's a problem with that class.<br/><br/>In fact, Fighters' adaptability is ultimately nonexistent, as in order to succeed on their own merits, they have to force themselves into an exceedingly narrow niche, like the spiked chain tripper, or the ubercharger, or the counter spammer.  The "Fighters" that are actually good at high levels aren't even Fighters.  They're sixteen levels of other classes with 2-4 levels of Fighter as a dip.<br/><br/>And criticism is not an insult.  To take it as such is inaccurate.