<div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=189056.msg10077117#msg10077117">Quote from: Zaer Darkwail on 04-06-2014, 13:23:50</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">It would be same if I got person control my familiar, my familiar gets nerfed as imps have besides their HD +4 LA (yes, +4 LA according savage species).<br/></blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div>Not quite the same. You burn a feat to get Improved Familiar, and the familiar is already considered to be part of the balance of the wizard class (at least at low levels before they lose all ability to balance against most other classes). What you'd effectively have in a summoned (bound, called, etc.) succubus is an (at least temporary) cohort that does your bidding. Normally, to balance this, you have to burn a feat on Leadership, and the cohort is 2 levels lower than your character.<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=189056.msg10077142#msg10077142">Quote from: Ghostwheel on 04-06-2014, 13:43:13</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">I'd say bind the succubus, give her full succubus powers and NPC gold, but require needing to rebind her every X days and giving her the kind of tithe you need to make her cooperate with you. Treat her as an NPC played by someone, rathe than a cohort or the like (and thus, she doesn't gain levels, for example).<br/><br/>If she stays with us for long enough and has reason to actually join us properly, she can find some way to plane shift from the Abyss to Faerun and start adventuring with us as a proper PC, and at that point we can start keeping track of her LA and ECL, give her PC wealth, and make her a proper PC in all the relevant ways. But... for system design reasons, I dislike the very concept of a cohort who's basically an extension of a PC, and thus effectively almost doubles the power that the individual PC brings to the table.<br/><br/>EDIT: While the Savage Species rules are a decent place to start, yes, we should use the 3.5 version of the race and not the 3.0 one. I believe there's an update for the monster progression somewhere... But that said, if we're keeping them as an NPC (like I'm suggesting), then there's no need to use the character progression rules unless/until they become a full PC.<br/></blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div>I could definitely live with that.<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=189056.msg10077347#msg10077347">Quote from: Blinkin on 04-06-2014, 15:20:11</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">What he said. The character already has a ssignificant advantage with a full Imp as a familiar</blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div>That's true, but it has been mitigated by the fact that he had to burn a feat for it instead of taking a feat that would have made him a more powerful spellcaster.<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=189056.msg10077419#msg10077419">Quote from: Zaer Darkwail on 04-06-2014, 15:51:28</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">Overall whole issue has become more complex than I would had ever desired it to be and even MistressVoluptas is confused and wondering is this normal for DnD groups argue about hair splitting about the rules and no longer sure what stuff should be in her charsheet :P.<br/></blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div>My experience? Yes, pretty much, and every bloody time the issue of summoning/binding/calling evil outsiders comes up.<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=189056.msg10077460#msg10077460">Quote from: Ghostwheel on 04-06-2014, 16:11:17</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">Savage Species is 3.0, so that's out of the question.<br/><br/>For what it's worth, here's (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UlAw2IywwKsY7HCTcLL3eUS-wcqM9jZR3BKdvmV_jpc/pub) an example of an updated progression (to 3.5) we could use, gaining all the benefits of the 3.5 Succubus at various levels.<br/><br/>Actually, that's only if she's an actual PC. If not, she'd probably use the NPC array (13 12 11 10 9 8) or elite array (15 14 13 12 10 8). Even cohorts are still NPCs.</blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div>That also works for me. The bottom line is that if we're going to treat the succubus as an NPC but have another player roleplay her, I can live with that as long as we deal with the potential danger to Adrian that he would have from forcing a succubus to work alongside him, get to know him extremely well, and potentially fail in his initial attempt to persuade the succubus to remain with him, or have her escape the trap entirely.<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote">Quote</div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote"> The target creature is allowed a Will saving throw. If the saving throw succeeds, the creature resists the spell. If the saving throw fails, the creature is immediately drawn to the trap (spell resistance does not keep it from being called). The creature can escape from the trap with by successfully pitting its spell resistance against your caster level check, by dimensional travel, or with a successful Charisma check (DC 15 + ½ your caster level + your Cha modifier). It can try each method once per day. If it breaks loose, it can flee or attack you. A dimensional anchor cast on the creature prevents its escape via dimensional travel. You can also employ a calling diagram (see magic circle against evil) to make the trap more secure.<br/><br/>If the creature does not break free of the trap, you can keep it bound for as long as you dare. You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward. You make a Charisma check opposed by the creature’s Charisma check. The check is assigned a bonus of +0 to +6 based on the nature of the service and the reward. If the creature wins the opposed check, it refuses service. New offers, bribes, and the like can be made or the old ones reoffered every 24 hours. This process can be repeated until the creature promises to serve, until it breaks free, or until you decide to get rid of it by means of some other spell. Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to. If you roll a 1 on the Charisma check, the creature breaks free of the binding and can escape or attack you. </blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=189056.msg10077460#msg10077460">Quote from: Ghostwheel on 04-06-2014, 16:11:17</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">So spend actions/resources in combat to do so. Any high-level caster (or someone who picks up a candle of Invocation) can bind creatures. That's different from using your actual class abilities. If you *do* want to do that, follow the binding rules, and have a chance of getting screwed over by a vengeful succubus who's frustrated with being brought into the material realm, and forced to help in the fight against evil instead of corrupting people and spreading Evil throughout the world. I don't think you have any risk of that happening if a person is playing the succubus.<br/></blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div>Exactly. It's the risk of being screwed over that balances out the planar binding spell. Want to bind a succubus? Fine, but you run the risk of botching a Charisma check and having either unleashed an evil on the world or on yourself.<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=189056.msg10078007#msg10078007">Quote from: Zaer Darkwail on 04-06-2014, 19:22:01</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">I introduced her to mythweavers as if she going play more DnD games she could well use it on her first char :P. I said to her copypaste everything on that SDR about succubus. Only difference being get master manipulator feat instead persuasive (as it fits her concept what she wants play at). Then move some ranks to UMD so she can use wands. Only mistake being that I used PC wealth table than NPC one for her gear (and she did already edit it off and took other gear instead).</blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div>That's pretty reasonable, as long as you use the succubus treasure value for her wealth.<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=189056.msg10078007#msg10078007">Quote from: Zaer Darkwail on 04-06-2014, 19:22:01</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">Also Calrond suggested I send Imp to look for true name so it's guaranteed nailing succubus (not needing buy Moment of Prescience scroll for auto success in charisma) to serve longer (we did discuss a year long servitude but we may as well go with fluff it lasts decades as in novels there are summoners who had bound fiends decades to their service before, so having a true name of said fiend can be powerful enough bargain to make it happen without billing dragon's hoard treasure to make it happen).<br/><br/>I still wonder why Calrond chose use 'cohort' as term or why suggesting savage species progression when spell specifically summons fully mature outsider. So not sure what Calrond was after in here exactly....<br/></blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div>To be fair, I said that a common tactic used to get more powerful demons is to summon lesser ones and task them with finding the name of a more powerful demon to summon, which we see Cadderly performing in R.A. Salvatore's Passage to Dawn. This was in response to Zaer suggesting that Adrian had known the name of a succubus from his earlier days and wanted to summon it now. For the sake of continuity, I suggested a way to summon a succubus that didn't rely on retconning the idea that Adrian knew of this succubus beforehand without it being a part of his backstory (and I realize that nobody's backstory is that dedicated, but knowing the name of a succubus is a thing that I felt at the time was a powerful enough thing to work for in-game.<br/><br/>I used the word "cohort" because, at the time, that described what I was under the impression that the succubus was meant to be: a lackey to supplement Adrian's abilities. I didn't necessarily mean that it would be a Leadership cohort, but for balance that was the relative power level that I was thinking. (I knew that a Succubus was CR 7, but I had forgotten about the +6 LA.)<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=189056.msg10078076#msg10078076">Quote from: Zaer Darkwail on 04-06-2014, 19:41:45</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">So want me go edit my IC post to give that sort bargain with my succubus then and everything would be okay then? Would Ghostwheel be okay with that and so would Calrond?<br/></blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div>If you two want to have a sexytime thread, or even a<em>canonical</em>sexytime thread, you certainly have my blessing to do so. But for the game and for fairness, I'd like to see some competing rolls<strong>(sent to my user ID: 35805)</strong>.<br/><br/>Just satisfy the following and I'll be happy with Adrian summoning a full-fledged Succubus who has every intention of causing chaos and spreading evil and corruption.<div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote">Quote</div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote"> The target creature is allowed a Will saving throw. If the saving throw succeeds, the creature resists the spell. If the saving throw fails, the creature is immediately drawn to the trap (spell resistance does not keep it from being called). <em><strong>The creature can escape from the trap with by successfully pitting its spell resistance against your caster level check, by dimensional travel, or with a successful Charisma check (DC 15 + ½ your caster level + your Cha modifier).</strong></em> It can try each method once per day. If it breaks loose, it can flee or attack you. A dimensional anchor cast on the creature prevents its escape via dimensional travel. You can also employ a calling diagram (see magic circle against evil) to make the trap more secure.<br/><br/>If the creature does not break free of the trap, you can keep it bound for as long as you dare. You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward. You make a Charisma check opposed by the creature’s Charisma check. The check is assigned a bonus of +0 to +6 based on the nature of the service and the reward. If the creature wins the opposed check, it refuses service. New offers, bribes, and the like can be made or the old ones reoffered every 24 hours. This process can be repeated until the creature promises to serve, until it breaks free, or until you decide to get rid of it by means of some other spell. Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to. If you roll a 1 on the Charisma check, the creature breaks free of the binding and can escape or attack you. </blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div>For the sake of our sanity, I'll even waive the initial Will save concerning summoning her in the first place.<br/><br/>The major part that I want to see is whether the succubus can escape from Adrian's<em>magic circle against evil</em>with her spell resistance (SR 18), a Charisma check against Adrian's DC 21 (15 + 1/2 * 9 + 2 = 21), or by dimensional travel (which she can't do)<strong>immediately after being summoned</strong>. If that happens, then the canonical scene wouldn't quite be the same as the one in the other thread. Adrian would have a fight on his hands, or would have released a succubus into the unsuspecting populace of Waterdeep.