Ok I quit, I'm pulling Phelycia. I'm a sanctioned judge for wizards and ripping apart the rules like that isn't very fun. I enjoy playing structured games in a system where the rules are written out. Not having them page 198'ed (white wolf vtm core book if you must know) in any system. It means people don't know how to make their damn characters and can't go by the guidelines given to make a level 1 character. If they wanted more then they should of asked for a higher level campaign. They are rules for a reason, what a novel thought huh?<br/><br/>And I didn't have a shit fit about anything, I stated if you wanted plane then you failed because charisma goes for many things which INCLUDES appearance. An 18 charisma is no bum on the street, and just because he's got a silver tongue doesn't mean he also has a good looking face, it doesn't mean his appearance would increase giving him MORE of an appearance it MEANS on top of having his silver tongue he's also got a model's face. THAT is what I meant.