<div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=146527.msg6955280#msg6955280">Quote from: FragarachZ on 21-09-2012, 09:43:32</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">How come you're ok with a game about raping helpless women but not so with one of the chosing pride over her life? It's rape we're talking about, just saying. And while suicide would definitely be extreme, it would make sense for the character, and it was everyone's choices that led up here. I'm not saying she kills herself on her next turn, only that it's an option for her to consider, given recent happenings.</blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>There is a difference between having an RP about using rape as drama, and using rape (or perhaps, rape<em>fantasy</em>) as sex.  Don't get me wrong, in the real world, rape is a horrible,<em>horrible</em>thing, but here on Elliquiy, it often ends up as something that just kinda happens on a regular basis.  (Or at least most of the games I've played in).  Basically, I'm ok with it because it's sexy, as it's fantasy, despite what the reality is.  Suicide on the other hand, is not sexy.  Not "fun".  It, to put it bluntly, does a very good job of killing my fapping.<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote">Quote</div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">This will come off as harsh and it is intended because I'm sensitive in this matter.<br/>To those who can relate: take a virtual bitchslap and be grateful for it. That's for offering to take over my character. Unless you're the GM stay put, and if you're the GM talk to me about it. When and if I decide to give her away, I'll tell you don't worry, but your decision in the matter will be to accept or not.</blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>Fair enough, my comment was mostly a kneejerk reaction to what seemed like you just immediately quitting the game, as a way to keep the current encounter from grinding to a halt.<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote">Quote</div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">As for the damage dealt to monster, to put it bluntly I don't g ive a fucking damn. That's player knowlege. Don't take this harshly, but if you expect the characters to act on player knowledge you are a bad GM and should play a wargame instead of a roleplaying game.<br/>From our characters perspective (due to descriptions of several 'direct hits'), this encounter is hopeless, the monsters were blowun up, slashed, skewered, and eaten by a familiar over the course of the battle, and show no sign of flinching. For all they know, they regenerate and or immensely powerful, have the numbers (due to tentacles and the ability to grapple multiple foes) and the surprise. The only logical course of action the girls can take is give up or flee at this point.</blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>I'll chalk this entirely up to my inability to write well.  If I were a better writer, I'd talk about how the monsters were starting to struggle, how the ones near Naia and Lyra were definitely showing signs of wearing out (while the other monsters were still going at "full steam"), and essentially give enough in-character clues for the characters to figure out "this thing's strong, but it's in its death throes".<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote">Quote</div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">While I assumed we were pinned by the tentacles, I wasn't sure about our options, but on the same argument I'd like to make this point: if you have slimy penis-tentacles prodding all over your body, don't tell me you'll have the composture to do anything but try to get the hell away from them, the same way you waste an action to putting out flames if you catch fire, instead of 'saving' that 'wasted' action used to prevent 1d6 damage. When you panic you don't do logical stuff.<br/>Given all that, "Don't worry about me, get the big one!" is technically communicating metagame knowledge in character.</blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>Admittedly, I'd argue that if someone is trained extensively in the use of several deadly weapons, and had a weapon easily within reach, they would have enough composure to realize that grabbing said weapon and hacking away at the tentacles, even if it's just blind flailing about with something sharp and/or pointy, would probably be a good idea.<br/><br/>That being said, much of the abstraction of D&D really is about metagaming combat.  That's why characters might move so that cleave can hit more monsters, why a mage might throw a fireball a little to the left of the guy he wants to hit so he doeesn't get a friend caught in the explosion, or any number of other things.  The characters, having about six seconds to decide what they're going to do and do it, don't have the time to analyze what's going on like the players can.  Is it metagaming?  Sure.  But it's how the game is made to work.<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote">Quote</div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">I understand you are playtesting, but you are still throwing possibly 3-5 HD creatures with incredible zone ofcontrol at level 1 characters. At this point, you don't reduce the game system's existing complexity, you add to it for yourself, and limit players on the other hand by denying them options.</blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>The creatures have abnormally high HP for their CR, but they also have abnormally low damage.  Look at what the players have done, somewhere around 75-ish damage so far, I think?  Now look at the monsters - 4 damage to Naia, and that's only because she got a natural 1 on her save.<br/><br/>With a game like this, I essentially have two options: either come up with a way for the monsters to grab a girl and fuck her silly in the same time it would take to kill a character, or have something that takes longer and give the monsters a way to actually survive long enough to be a threat.  Doing the first would, I feel, not be fun at all; it would mean the monster would grab, strip, and rape you all in the same round, essentially, leaving none of the tension and build-up.<br/><br/>That being said, I'd argue that the PCs actually have more options than a normal combat, with the mechanic of killing tentacles; the idea is to create an interesting decision between preventing the monster from attacking, and actually killing it; as well as deciding which character to save first.  Again, I take responsibility for not making this a more obvious distinction, but I find it a bit insulting to say that you can do nothing when you've essentially been "wasting" your turns trying to escape.  (By the way, you've also been rolling incredibly poorly - I don't think you got higher than a 10 on the die at all; I'm not fudging your rolls.)<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote">Quote</div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">I will not assume anything bad and chalk the utterly boring battlefield and lack of non-attack options up to the same thing, you wanting to reduce complexity and testing out monster mechanics. That's okay, but I feel like I need to spell it out nontheless. 3rd edition combat is effin boring and static. There is no terrain, hazards, and options beside move, attack or escape, and if you want to make things interesting you'll have to add special terrain, hazards, and skill options so we can take advantage of them, given how our enemies have advantage in every other aspect already. The only remarkable thing on the map is the cart, which I asked about, but instead of an answer the monsters moved away from it, rendering the only piece of special terrain obsolete, and it's not like we can kite these things either. We're standing in the same spots for 3 turns or what.</blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>Fair enough; I've never really used much terrain in my battles, but most of the time it's over fast enough for the terrain to generally not matter much, so I'll chalk that one up to "I need to do a better job of stuff" as well.<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote">Quote</div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">Getting a bit personal for a moment, Seth take a virtual bitchslap for telling us not to build overpowered characters but optimalizing monsters. Again, forum games are not the medium to make coordinated tactical moves through, nor are roleplaying games in general. In a roleplaying game there is room for mistake so the characters can learn how to make those decisions that are probably obvious to players. Think about trolls. They hand you your ass unless you know their weakness, but you have a hit point pool, an abstract way of tracking fatigue and injury to get away unscratched until you figure it out.</blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>I don't think I actually told you guys to not build overpowered characters (merely rejected one character's initial ability scores because they were too good); in fact I think the ability scores the PCs started with is quite a bit higher than most "point-buy" systems.  Still, I'll take this criticism and agree that the monsters are too optimized; again, I wanted to make sure that the characters don't have an easy time escaping since the monsters need several consecutive rounds of holding a character to actually do anything, but it seems I went too far in the other direction.<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote">Quote</div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">More on the thought of hit points and damage: if you're using an abstract system like this, please don't describe every "hit" as a hit, or you'll get into the trap of bleeding from a hundred wounds while you fell the low level monster with one blow. Also, as stated before, it is misleading IC information that characters will then have to act upon.</blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>Fair enough; I do need to work on describing things enough to tell players "you hit the thing" without having every attack be an actual "hit".  Against weird abominations like this though, I would say that seeing them bleed from several wounds more or less fits...<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote">Quote</div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">I only repeat what I said before when I say, melee is useless in the game. No opportunity attack against grapple, enemies can grapple multiple foes at the same time, and have reach. Effectively they always have advantage no matter the circumstances.<br/><br/>I'm fine with you throwing more difficult and complex encounters at us, but give us the resources to adjust. Because level 1 characters fell one monster won't mean they can beat two, especially after they "powered up".</blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>No opportunity attack against grapple is effectively the same as saying that you don't get an opportunity attack against someone beating on you with a sword.  Grappling you is the monsters' main form of attack (for these guys, it's their<em>only</em>form of attack), so not giving you free attacks when they do it doesn't really seem like a real complaint to me.  Yes, I admit Tess hasn't really accomplished much this encounter aside from distracting the thing's tentacles, but you're also sitting there just letting them have their way with you instead of grabbing a weapon and chopping them to pieces.  Honestly, I can't really agree with complaints about "melee are weak" when you're not even trying to play to any of your strengths.  Again though, I do take responsibility for not making your options more obvious, but I'm going to say try attacking, try actually using a weapon on them and see what happens (and try to get your companions to help kill more of the tentacles), and then let me know if you still think melee are too weak.<br/><br/>Also, as for reach, they still only threaten adjacent spaces; they can't get opportunity attacks on you when you walk up to them like a normal creature with reach would.<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote">Quote</div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">At this point however, I honestly say I don't see any justifiable outcome to this encounter that the remaining gills fleeing screaming in terror while Tess and Naia are fucked silly and dragged away.</blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>If the PCs decide to turn around and run, sure, but despite the difficulty, you guys should have a pretty easy time with the rest of this encounter; Snake finished off one of the monsters with his last turn (which I suddenly can't find...), and you've got another one nearly dead.  Sure, the characters wouldn't know the actual numbers, but they should be able to tell that one of the monsters is getting incredibly weak (and not describing it that way is purely my fault for not being a good enough writer).<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote">Quote</div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">I'm sad that this needs to be pointed out, but I think we also need to agree on what is fun for everyone. Getting instant tentacle gratification every other encounter is utterly boring for me, and pretty much impossible with the same character. For those that enjoy the tragedy of the heroine failing and getting raped as a result, I think her fall is meaningless unless she already succeeded over a period of time, and raised the stakes so high that her failure seems overwhelming, contributing to the punishment she takes physically, perhaps overshadowing it entirely, like losing the last battle or messing up just within reach of her goal. We also need to agree on what this game is about. Roleplaying, testing combat mechanics, or smut. Unless we clear these things up, someone will bound to be disappointed, meaning that the game fails at its foundations.<br/></blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>Well, the game was called out as a "Pathfinder tentacle rape" game, so getting raped by tentacles sounds about par for the course...<br/><br/>That being said, I do agree that a "fall from grace/might" is a very interesting concept, but it was not what I had in mind for this game, nor is it something that I advertised.  Seeing as the entirety of the game mechanics revolve around just how the monsters get to raping the girls, I think this should have been fairly obvious that someone would end up with something in her sex pretty much every encounter, and I apologize if you got the wrong impression.<br/><br/>As for a goal, my main one has been smut, through the use of mechanics.  Getting those mechanics to work properly is also very important, obviously, which is why I'm putting a lot of thought into the inner workings of the game.