<div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=195311.msg9508566#msg9508566">Quote from: Ghostwheel on 26-01-2014, 21:13:39</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">Pathfinder (and D&amp;D by that extension) is a combat-based, gamist game centered around combat and the rules regarding it. I'd say 90-95% of the rules in Pathfinder are about combat. It's what the system focuses on. It's what the system makes attempts to be good at. Variants that change things will generally try to address these rules. There are many other systems out there that focus on the narrative aspect of the story, FATE being one such example. This doesn't mean you can't have good RP in a Pathfinder game. But it means that there won't be nearly as much support for RP as there would in a different system. On to the actual game/variant...<br/></blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>I guess I play with groups that RP is the norm and not combat... we have gone many sessions using skills and abilities without ever getting into combat!<br/>Using skills and various magic items to free the princess or set up the defeat an final battle of the adventure. How many places in the LoTR movies did they use skills, stealth, survival, healing, knowledge, instead of combat. The original AD&D was very much combat oriented. I see now though with all the various general feats, talents, traits, etc a shift toward RP ...maybe that's wrong and maybe I just have not been in groups where the GM or a power mad PC wizard instakills the group all the time....I would leave such a group after a week at best!<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=195311.msg9508566#msg9508566">Quote from: Ghostwheel on 26-01-2014, 21:13:39</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">Note that the DM wanted *no* magic items at all at the start. All those things you're complaining about? They wouldn't be there anyhow. Which means a few things. <br/><ul class="bbc_list"><li>First, this variant allows us to keep up and face CR-appropriate encounters without being steamrolled regardless of the equipment we have on us. It makes <em>us</em>, rather than the equipment we have on us, awesome. </li><li>Second, as you noted, it fixes a large part of the rules where fighters are nerfed compared to casters as far as gold is concerned since they need so many more things to be viable. Note as well, a very positive side-effect is that it keeps everyone on the RNG. While there are some extreme differences in the AC/saves of characters, none of us are auto-hit/auto-miss if an enemy has an attack roll around the average of our saves and ACs. Taking rolling out of the equation is a bad thing, which is a reason I think it's good.</li><li>Third, you mentioned two items. Those are iconic items and are totally cool. Characters in books usually have iconic items which are few in number. The thing characters in stories rarely have, and which break the realism of the game in my opinion, is a dozen magic items that are all worn at the same time. This variant freely allows you to switch between magic items in between combats so you can face various situations. But those items are iconic, and you're not wearing a plethora of magical items that make you light up like a Christmas tree every time someone scans you with Detect Magic.</li><li>It also eliminates for the most part the need for magic shops. No longer simply traded for gold, magic items become things of wonder that are bartered for or looted directly from the corpse of the lich that was just slain. It makes them cooler, and more flavorful rather than needing to upgrade that +2 armor to +3 so you don't fall behind... which is kinda silly in my opinion.</li></ul><br/>You can totally use one-shot items, the kind you said you liked, in this variant to no penalty. Please, please, <em>please</em> read the whole thing. It might make more sense afterwards.<br/><br/>EDIT: And what are you talking about, no items that add out-of-combat stuff? Circlets of persuasion, Helm of Telepathy, and the Mask of Stony Demeanor (+10 to Bluff!!) all exist in this game and can be used. I honestly don't understand why you would have that kind of objection when those items are not only there, but are even more often gotten since people don't <em>have</em> to take the items that make them decent in combat--they can get cool stuff that gives them awesome out-of-combat stuff instead.<br/></blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>Actually I disagree, you gimped the crafting feat then changed the way its done entirely. Why even need a feat to craft with when you have limited the scale of what can be crafted. Only ever 3 scrolls at a time correct?<br/>I have played with clerics that carried a dozen or more scrolls with 5 spells each. All designed to heal, remove curse, restore or rise dead. That helps the players of his group now. Only 10 charges in a rod. Why? A feat is hard to get and you gimped the spending of it by changing how crafting works! Just because wizards/casters can do things a warrior type can not!<br/><br/><strong>**A character with Craft Scroll may spend an hour once every 24 hours (usually upon waking) to craft up to three scrolls of any spell level he knows. These become inert and lose their potency should any further scrolls be crafted on any following day. </strong><br/>Please tell me why I would spend a feat to get ONLY 3 scrolls a day! come on now be reasonable. Your Oracle should have a dozen cure crit scrolls ready for after combat! My druid should have 6 bark skin or now with being able to scroll higher then one can cast [which changes the entire way scrolls are  done by the rules of the game] Why not 6 stoneskin scrolls but we are limited to 3 scrolls only!<br/><br/><strong>**A character with Brew Potion may spend an hour once every 24 hours (usually upon waking) to brew five potions that he would normally be able to brew. These become inert and lose their potency should any further potions be brewed on any following day. </strong><br/>same thing applies...limited and gimped and costly to spend a feat on!<br/><br/><strong>**A character with Craft Wand may spend an hour once every 24 hours (usually upon waking) to craft one wand of a spell that he could cast which has 10 charges. If the character has access to Least items, they can craft a wand containing 1st level spells, 2nd or 3rd if they have access to Lesser items, and 4th if they have access to Greater items. These become inert and lose their potency should any further wands be crafted on any following day.</strong><br/><br/>These 3 change the game and make using a feat to get them almost useless... or course it only takes an hour to use the feat...but then I can see why you would do this since the goal of the variant was to let the combat types be 'equal or better' then any caster! I guess since it does not cost anything to create these scrolls/potions/wands [they appear magically?] that is a benefit. Or do you have to pay the costs to make a scroll normally?<br/><br/><hr/>Wow I can have a Circlet of persuasion?...oh wait no I cant its more the 4000 gp...how about the helm of telepathy...nope more the 4k as well. The problem is that the game is set up for a big magic world...the craft feat, treasure hordes. It is not designed the way you want it to be and what you did is take the flavor of the game and shift it to the warrior and combat and away from RP. Or more you just went with the flow. When any PC no matter his birth or ability can change to be a caster at any point the game is set for high magic.<br/><hr/><br/>One idea I have been toying with is requiring a feat at the start to be able to cast magic at any point in your character career. Well maybe two feats one divine and the other arcane. If you do not have this feat at the start thenyou can not use magic even if its part of your class like a bard. I would also give everyone an extra feat at the start. Of course there are problems with that since most classes get the 1st level feat after choosing a class.<br/><hr/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=195311.msg9508556#msg9508556">Quote from: Videospirit on 26-01-2014, 21:11:09</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">I wouldn't want to use the variant in a normal setting for sure, but it makes the game playable in a low magic setting. If we weren't using the variant, we just... wouldn't have any bonuses at all and would be gimped for our level.<br/><br/>And there's always mundane items for skill bonuses (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/tools-kits#TOC-Tool-Masterwork). Masterwork tool of +2 competence bonus to any skill is 50 gold. I would have grabbed more myself, but guns are expensive. I probably should get some sort of... stealth outfit for +2 to stealth in wilderness though.<br/></blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>I would have preferred a Robe of Elvin kind that gives a +5 to stealth myself! But I understand the combat aspect that this is and took a regen item [ioun stone regen 1hp hour] because well its gonna be needed more then stealth!<br/><br/><hr/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=195311.msg9508578#msg9508578">Quote from: Inerrant Lust on 26-01-2014, 21:16:09</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">If you need skills, up to a +8 bonus to Int isn't anything to scoff at. :P Or a +8 bonus to Charisma or Dex for Diplomacy, Bluff, Stealth, ect.<br/><br/>Or mundane items.<br/><br/>There is one thing that I want to encourage; Players filling a niche that others cannot. A lot of magic items allow you to fill a variety of shoes, which would be helpful if we didn't already have 8 party members. :P<br/><br/>Also, a bonus to diplomacy would be helpful when you're say, trying to keep two party members from slitting eachother's throats. Just for example, the NPC Grant Sanctus is an inquisitor who has devoted his life to rooting out demon infiltrators. Do you imagine he's very much pleased to travel with 3 tieflings? :P<br/><br/>To me, combat and sex have the same place in a story. They can be a great supplement to it, even if 80% of the RP is combat... if it strengthens the story without supplanting then it's gold. So why have I set up the rules and chargen the way they are?<br/><br/>Well... combat in this RP will be tough and hopefully not always beneficial. You might win a battle, but it might come at a cost that overall made it just not worth it. Alternatively, you might accomplish some amazing feat against all odds against a powerful enemy (However beefed the PCs are, encounters WILL be tougher)<br/><br/>In essence, even if 90% of this RP is combat... the fact that it is hard and it is challenging and you are doing it with literally a fragment of the power you could be wielding in 'ideal' circumstances... that all strengthens some of the atmosphere I'm trying to build here.<br/><br/>Of course, I have no intention to make 90% of this RP combat. :P<br/><br/>Also, yes.. you will find magic items throughout the game. That's also part of the story; they just aren't available outside of ancient untouched places. :P<br/></blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>Elixers have saved my butt several times. My table group has been saved by simple feather tokens. We carry small supplies of these. We have had the main barbarian use a bead from his necklace of fireballs to help save the day. When you limit magic items as harsh as you have done [and the varient does] then it actually limits the survivalblity of the group. When the least expected member can toss off a 8die fireball to slow the final charge, when Our casters had run out of spells. It is memorable and saves the party!<br/><br/>Niches are find but by limiting things you force the niche not encourage it...yes I had to focus my druid but after reading you and gw I may change my feats to gain +pluses to saves and maybe even a one day reroll. Combat and surviving is now more important then focusing on the character.<br/><br/>Yes the attribute bonus can be nice but then DC checks are gonna be high. As for niches where is the rogue for the group? the melee tank? if you wanted niche why did you not encourage that. Instead we have 8 characters and 7 casters [in one form or another] and one damage range tank!<br/>I do not see niches there!<br/>you do realize I choice my domain because I saw this was gonna be combat. Between Myself and the two wizards we can cast 6 fire balls 3 of then at 15 d6 so that means in 3 rds we can do 25d6 fireball damage alone. Check the sheets!<br/><br/>I will think on this the rest of the day and see what I figure out!<br/><br/>Phaia