<div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=195311.msg9508991#msg9508991">Quote from: Phaia on 26-01-2014, 22:30:39</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">Using skills and various magic items to free the princess or set up the defeat an final battle of the adventure. How many places in the LoTR movies did they use skills, stealth, survival, healing, knowledge, instead of combat.<br/></blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>Precisely. They didn't use a dozen magic items. The variant supports this exactly.<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=195311.msg9508991#msg9508991">Quote from: Phaia on 26-01-2014, 22:30:39</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">The original AD&amp;D was very much combat oriented. I see now though with all the various general feats, talents, traits, etc a shift toward RP ...maybe that's wrong and maybe I just have not been in groups where the GM or a power mad PC wizard instakills the group all the time....I would leave such a group after a week at best!<br/></blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>That's not what I said either. I was referring more to what kind of play the rules support and engender. Narrativist (games with rules that promote story, such as FATE), simulationist (games with rules that promote "realism", such as Silhouette), and gamist (games with rules that support overcoming challenges, often with an emphasis on combat, such as Pathfinder) all exist. You can do whatever in any of them, be it overcoming challenges or full-on RP for a dozen sessions. My point was that Pathfinder is primarily a gamist sort of game. See this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNS_Theory) for more.<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=195311.msg9508991#msg9508991">Quote from: Phaia on 26-01-2014, 22:30:39</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">Actually I disagree, you gimped the crafting feat then changed the way its done entirely. Why even need a feat to craft with when you have limited the scale of what can be crafted. Only ever 3 scrolls at a time correct?<br/>I have played with clerics that carried a dozen or more scrolls with 5 spells each. All designed to heal, remove curse, restore or rise dead. That helps the players of his group now. Only 10 charges in a rod. Why? A feat is hard to get and you gimped the spending of it by changing how crafting works! Just because wizards/casters can do things a warrior type can not!<br/></blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>The reasons are mostly balance ones, as well as game design principles. Let's say you took Craft Wand in a game where the characters have almost no gold to spend. You wasted a feat. This variant makes it so that the feat adds to your character regardless of DM fiat and how much gold you have in a way that doesn't break the game, and also doesn't break the way resources are set up in Pathfinder. A cleric who has all those scrolls, who is supposed to run out of spells for the day after the X encounter, is going to be at almost full power for the entire day. That's not a good thing IMO. The other side of it is that crafting feats essentially break character wealth, effectively allowing a character to virtually double their wealth given if they craft their things. And since wealth = power in vanilla Pathfinder, that's not good for the game either. This fixes that.<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=195311.msg9508991#msg9508991">Quote from: Phaia on 26-01-2014, 22:30:39</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote"><strong>**A character with Craft Scroll may spend an hour once every 24 hours (usually upon waking) to craft up to three scrolls of any spell level he knows. These become inert and lose their potency should any further scrolls be crafted on any following day. </strong><br/>Please tell me why I would spend a feat to get ONLY 3 scrolls a day! come on now be reasonable. Your Oracle should have a dozen cure crit scrolls ready for after combat! My druid should have 6 bark skin or now with being able to scroll higher then one can cast [which changes the entire way scrolls are  done by the rules of the game] Why not 6 stoneskin scrolls but we are limited to 3 scrolls only!<br/></blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>See above explanation. Being able to fire virtually unlimited spells per day isn't good for the game. And I don't think the feat is bad--heck, I took it myself. That should be more than enough indication. But honestly, if you don't feel it's a good feat--don't take it. As you said, there are dozens of awesome feats in the game to take.<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=195311.msg9508991#msg9508991">Quote from: Phaia on 26-01-2014, 22:30:39</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote"><strong>**A character with Brew Potion may spend an hour once every 24 hours (usually upon waking) to brew five potions that he would normally be able to brew. These become inert and lose their potency should any further potions be brewed on any following day. </strong><br/>same thing applies...limited and gimped and costly to spend a feat on!<br/></blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>Same thing I said before--though on one hand, I wouldn't want to spend all the rounds of combat using potions, since they take up a large part of your turn. And this allows you to get potions every day, instead of pausing an entire quest to take downtime to craft enough potions in order to continue on.<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=195311.msg9508991#msg9508991">Quote from: Phaia on 26-01-2014, 22:30:39</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">These 3 change the game and make using a feat to get them almost useless... or course it only takes an hour to use the feat...but then I can see why you would do this since the goal of the variant was to let the combat types be 'equal or better' then any caster! I guess since it does not cost anything to create these scrolls/potions/wands [they appear magically?] that is a benifit. Or do you have to pay the costs to make a scroll normally?<br/></blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>First of all, the goal of the variant isn't to let the combat types be 'equal or better' than any caster. It's specifically to eliminate the wealth discrepancy between SAD (single-ability dependent) and MAD (multiple adbility-dependent) characters. If I truly wanted to do something like the above, I'd make changes to actual classes to make them stronger. That's not the case, as can be seen in the variant. The other is to balance crafting in part. As I mentioned before, crafters can get a TON more gold than non-crafters. That isn't good for game balance, which is something the variant fixes.<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=195311.msg9508991#msg9508991">Quote from: Phaia on 26-01-2014, 22:30:39</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">Wow I can have a Circlet of persuasion?...oh wait no I cant its more the 4000 gp...how about the helm of telepathy...nope more the 4k as well. The problem is that the game is set up for a big magic world...the craft feat, treasure hordes. It is not designed the way you want it to be and what you did is take the flavor of the game and shift it to the warrior and combat and away from RP. Or more you just went with the flow. When any PC no matter his birth or ability can change to be a caster at any point the game is set for high magic. <br/></blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>Those are specifically issues with the changes the DM made to the variant--he wants a low-magic world, which is why we start with only a single Least item. You'll notice though that we can actually use a Lesser item at the moment should we find one, and will be able to use even more, and Greater items later. And the game is set for the opposite--the DM stated that magic is less powerful, and crafting permanent items is an art that's been lost for the most part. How are PCs able to become casters? Would you say a rogue is a caster in a vanilla Pathfinder game if he picks up a wand or scroll and uses UMD on it? I'd strongly disagree on that one.<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=195311.msg9508991#msg9508991">Quote from: Phaia on 26-01-2014, 22:30:39</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">I would have preferred a Robe of Elvin kind that gives a +5 to stealth myself! But I understand the combat aspect that this is and took a regen item [ioun stone regen 1hp hour] because well its gonna be needed more then stealth! <br/></blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>I would honestly say that the Cloak of Elvenkind is better. And there's nothing stopping you from taking it--if you take damage, don't worry, I'll heal you up :-)<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=195311.msg9508991#msg9508991">Quote from: Phaia on 26-01-2014, 22:30:39</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">Elixers have saved my butt severeal times. My table group has been saved by simple feather tokens. We carry samll supplies of these. We have had the main barbarian use a bead from his necklace of fireballs to help save the day. When you limit magic items as harsh as you have done [and the varient does] then it actually limits the survivalblity of the group. When the least expected member can toss off a 8die fireball to slow the final charge, when Our catsers had run out of spells. It is memorable and saves the party!<br/></blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>I said it before. It's written on the page. I'll say it again. Single-use items are available and do not count against your magic items. If we find them, feel free to take and use them at no penalty. I'm honestly at a loss of what the problem is here.<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=195311.msg9508991#msg9508991">Quote from: Phaia on 26-01-2014, 22:30:39</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">Niches are find but by limiting things you force the niche not encourage it...yes I had to focus my druid but after reading you and gw I may change my feats to gain +pluses to saves and maybe even a one day reroll. Combat and surviving is now more importent then focusing on the character.<br/></blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>Not sure how that's relevant... unless you mean because we'll face hard opponents, and I personally enjoy challenging fights. That said, feel free to take whatever you like--that's why we have a party, to support each other :-)<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=195311.msg9508991#msg9508991">Quote from: Phaia on 26-01-2014, 22:30:39</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">Yes the atribute bonus can be nice but then DC checks are gonna be high. As for niches where is the rogue for the group? the melee tank? if you wanted niche why did you not encourage that. Instead we have 8 characters and 7 casters [in one form or another] and one damage range tank!<br/>I do not see niches there!<br/></blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>I'm a melee tank. I have a very high AC, and on top of that I picked up Compel Hostility so monsters don't simply ignore me for doing little damage. As for the DCs, I don't see how that's any different compared to any other high-level game...<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=195311.msg9508991#msg9508991">Quote from: Phaia on 26-01-2014, 22:30:39</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">you do realize I choice my domain because I saw this was gonna be combat. Between Myself and the two wizards we can cast 6 fire balls 3 of then at 15 d6 so that measn in 3 rds we can do 25d6 fireball damage alone. Check the sheets!<br/></blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>How/why is that a problem? If you want to choose something else, go for it. You should definitely take whatever feats, class abilities, skills, and so on that you want. The variant evens out the playing field, but it doesn't change it or raise it.