<div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=163921.msg7740361#msg7740361">Quote from: ReijiTabibito on 17-02-2013, 23:35:36</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">No.  And here's where I can help differentiate.  Take your scenario.  The Firewall sentinels board a ship with Exsurgent infectees that plan on obliterating a space hab, either with conventional methods <em>or</em>, more insidiously, sneak onboard said hab and infect as many people with the virus.<br/><br/>It's more heroic if they <em>chose</em> to inflict that handicap upon themselves for the sake of the future victims - there was no other way, etc etc.<br/><br/>It's <em>less</em> heroic if they had their original bodies get onboard ship, and in a stupid, blundering error got themselves wiped out except for the one dude who managed to run away and hide long enough from the Exsurgents to be able to recover the rest of his team's cortstacks...and the only thing available were the Roombas.<br/><br/>See the difference?</blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>You're conflating two different scenarios I described. Scenario 1, my character in a Fury got taken out by double-fisting a pair of plasma grenades while engaging a xenomorph so the rest of the party could get away.<em>Totally not heroic</em>. The party managed (I was kind of surprised, honestly) to retrieve her stack, and the GM actually allowed that given how hardened they are, and the exact circumstances, it would be recoverable. But no morph was available to sleeve into. Instead of saying 'Well, I'm a physical combat monster and now I'm stuck as an infomorph,' she was able with the help of the hacker to get hold of one of the habitat's bots and use it as an infiltrator/combatant.<br/><br/>Scenario 2: A group of Firewall agents infiltrated a ship in midflight, deep space, by simply being 'thrown' at it over a distance of a tenth of an AU, as a swarm of Spares, because anything larger would trigger the ship's meteor defense system and pop up alerts on the ship's monitors. If the ship had changed course, those Spares would've gone sailing off into the void, never to return...but due to Firewall's informant they were reasonably sure it wasn't about to change its prescheduled course. It was, in the situation, the Only Way to get a team on board. It would have been NICE to throw a dozen Reapers at the ship, but it also wouldn't have worked. So it was Spares or nothing, and the habitat targeted was an unfriendly bunch of insular, isolationist xenophobic types who were expecting a shipment of supplies to help bootstrap up their ailing (salvaged) habitat and wouldn't be able to stop the ship on their own...And nobody else in the vicinity would give two figs if 'those people' were nuked. So. Possible suicide mission with a bunch of Spares, to save a bunch of people who a lot of the system wouldn't have lifted a finger for. Totally not heroic.<br/><br/>(As an aside, a lot of Firewall infiltration scenarios end up being on habitats where you have to come in as something innocuous, then using cached gear, or hijacking local security equipment, or fabbing quickly-produced simple weapons, do whatever needs doing for Firewall. It's not generally Starship Troopers blow-down-the-airlock-wearing-powered-armor and board, because that's just a wonderfully easy way to not only alert everyone around, but also to die, armor notwithstanding.)<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=163921.msg7740361#msg7740361">Quote from: ReijiTabibito on 17-02-2013, 23:35:36</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">Actually, pretty much everyone could have survived that scenario, as long as they had done as asked and didn't make any trouble.  Remember, Alan Rickman and his goons weren't there as terrorists, they were there as [SPOILER ALERT] bank robbers, to steal the money in the vault. [/SPOILER ALERT]<br/><br/>Hell, you could argue that John made things <em>worse</em>, not better, by trying to be a hero.</blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>Which was not information available to John or anyone else he had contact with when he began to take action. And while they were there as bank robbers, they did intend to kill everyone in the rooftop detonation so as to confuse the investigation into believing that they, themselves, were dead. So...Not terrorists, just planning to kill everyone. Important distinction. <_< If John had played along and let things happen, his wife and everyone else would've played a part in a massive fireball on the roof of the building.<em>Unacceptable.</em><br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=163921.msg7740361#msg7740361">Quote from: ReijiTabibito on 17-02-2013, 23:35:36</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">But as you've so helpfully noted, Firewall Sentinels and built EP characters aren't <em>supposed</em> to be slightly-above-ordinary.  Make note of all the things you said in the PM thread about the average EPer compared to the average human today, as well as the average PC vs the average NPC.<br/><br/>As I remember a phrase from one of your posts:  What do you <em>mean</em> we had a break in last month?  Why are we only learning about this <em>now</em>?</blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>Yes. I'm well aware of what I said, and it doesn't change the threats they face. They're not 'normal transhumans', but they're still individuals or a small team going up against governmental and corporate institutions (disadvantaged by sheer weight of resources/manpower/connections) and X-threats (disadvantaged because these things are entirely capable, unchecked, of wiping out all Solar life...That's what an X-threat IS).<br/><div class="spoiler_container"><div class="spoiler_header" onclick="hideSecond (this);" role="button">Non-EP stuff about ideas of heroism that probably only concerns me and Reiji</div><div class="spoiler_body">If you really look, almost all heroes are disadvantaged and tested terribly along the way, often to the point of trauma/death/social or emotional fate worse than death...And then they struggle on and overcome that disadvantage. It's part of being a hero. Conan the <del>Blockhead</del> Barbarian even has his moment on the Tree of Woe. The fading trust of King Arthur, and the fall of Launcelot before Launcelot returns to sacrifice himself so others may live. Disarmed (literally) Skywalker committing suicide (failed, but through no fault of his own...He was saved by friends he didn't know could save him) rather than admitting to his parentage and his ties to the enemy. The latest comic-book heroes-turned-movie-heroes, facing unsurmountable odds that require acts of self-sacrifice and have no certainty of success...Except that things DO work out alright, one group manages to close the dimensional gateway and the self-sacrificial goat falls back through the shrinking hole just before it closes. The hero who is unchallenged, who does not descend into the depths and then recover, is no hero. There are some really amazing studies about how this relates to world mythologies and storytelling.<br/><br/>The difference between the hero and the ordinary man is, the hero doesn't give in, doesn't surrender to inevitable defeat, but goes on beyond it somehow and reconstructs himself to take on the new task, drawing strength from the knowledge of both how outmatched he is, and how necessary it is that he succeed. Firewall Sentinels routinely take on tasks which amount to suicide, not because they will be restored from backup (just because you have a save game doesn't mean falling into the lava would be any less painful or horrible a way to die), but because if they don't, who will?<br/><br/>I would suggest that heroes are defined by their behavior when they are at their most helpless and defeated but still must go on. Rocky's comeback means NOTHING if he doesn't have the crap beat out of him first so he can MAKE a comeback. John McClane is captured and disarmed by the very terrorists/thieves he seeks to oppose. Frodo has to abandon all of his friends and struggle with the Ring's power over himself, or overcoming it's allure has no meaning, without those elements, his mission is as easy as sneaking into Mordor and dropping it down a hole. Ripley loses her entire crew and her ship before defeating the (final? not) Alien. Deckard is almost beaten to death by the immensely faster and stronger Leon before being saved by the other replicant, Rachel...And he's injured and knows he's dead meat when he goes up against Roy Baty...But "the old Blade Runner" goes anyway - he cannot reject the call. Jen cannot seize the sword and become the warrior until Lo sacrifices his life to save her...And then when she loses the sword later, she is helpless against Jade Fox. Maximus loses his family and home, and is made a slave. Later, he tries to flee Rome, but is recaptured by Commodus, imprisoned, and forced back into the arena...Where he defeats Commodus in single combat, even knowing, as he makes the final stroke against Commodus, that he will die from his own wounds. The Man With No Name is captured and beaten nearly to death by the Rojos, but finally returns to singly face them to free the people of San Miguel.<br/><br/>It's a pretty constant thing for heroes. The villain has to kick the dog to prove he's evil. The hero has to suffer to demonstrate that the villain is powerful enough that the hero's determination is necessary to defeat him.</div></div>