<div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=163921.msg7740272#msg7740272">Quote from: CarnivalOfTheGoat on 17-02-2013, 23:18:08</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">Yes, we disagree here, but I'm not entirely sure I understand your reasoning, so bear with me. </blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>To be fair, I probably don't understand half my reasoning myself unless people question me on it.  I'm like that with a lot of things - unless people prod me on it, I don't really examine my logics.<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=163921.msg7740272#msg7740272">Quote from: CarnivalOfTheGoat on 17-02-2013, 23:18:08</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">Having to take over a ship, while using spare morphs because they're all that was available, when that ship is full of possibly exsurgent-infected biocons intent on obliterating a habitat using the ship's AM cargo to pull a kamikaze while docking, and pulling it off isn't heroic? It's <em>less </em>heroic because the heroes had to do it using 'Roombas'? Or is it more heroic because they were willing to go in with that handicap, because the situation was just that desperate, and nothing larger could slip the ship's sensors? Is destroying the Death Star less heroic because it had to be done by itty-bitty horribly outgunned fighters instead of bringing in a battleship?</blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>No.  And here's where I can help differentiate.  Take your scenario.  The Firewall sentinels board a ship with Exsurgent infectees that plan on obliterating a space hab, either with conventional methods<em>or</em>, more insidiously, sneak onboard said hab and infect as many people with the virus.<br/><br/>It's more heroic if they<em>chose</em>to inflict that handicap upon themselves for the sake of the future victims - there was no other way, etc etc.<br/><br/>It's<em>less</em>heroic if they had their original bodies get onboard ship, and in a stupid, blundering error got themselves wiped out except for the one dude who managed to run away and hide long enough from the Exsurgents to be able to recover the rest of his team's cortstacks...and the only thing available were the Roombas.<br/><br/>See the difference?<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=163921.msg7740272#msg7740272">Quote from: CarnivalOfTheGoat on 17-02-2013, 23:18:08</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">The ship scenario I talked about with the 'Roombas' is the Transhuman equivalent of the movie <em>Die Hard</em>. The hero starts out with a pistol, luckily, because he's an off-duty cop...A competent individual, but hardly special forces material. He then loses his pistol in the first moments of the struggle, and has to physically subdue an opponent who is armed with a submachinegun. An opponent who is larger than him, stronger, and better trained...So it's a losing fight until they tumble down the stairs and the hero manages to hold onto his opponent's head, breaking his neck in the fall and tumble. This is a classic and modern motif, in which the hero is NOT super powerful and above his enemies, but rather overcomes them through a combination of virtue, cleverness, and desperation, and the desperation is <em>made </em>virtuous because other people are depending on the hero. The hero doesn't struggle for his own survival...John McClane could have hid in a closet, or a roof, and survived the whole shindig quite happily, if the only person he cared about was himself.</blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>Actually, pretty much everyone could have survived that scenario, as long as they had done as asked and didn't make any trouble.  Remember, Alan Rickman and his goons weren't there as terrorists, they were there as [SPOILER ALERT] bank robbers, to steal the money in the vault. [/SPOILER ALERT]<br/><br/>Hell, you could argue that John made things<em>worse</em>, not better, by trying to be a hero.<br/><br/>But your point is noted.<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=163921.msg7740272#msg7740272">Quote from: CarnivalOfTheGoat on 17-02-2013, 23:18:08</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">Seems to me an awful lot of heroes in both ancient and modern context aren't Gilgamesh or Elric or Gandalf or Luke Skywalker...People with powers beyond that of mortal ken. They're slightly-above-ordinary people who are outclassed, yet who struggle, bootstrap themselves up to the task, and beat it despite being disadvantaged.</blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>But as you've so helpfully noted, Firewall Sentinels and built EP characters aren't<em>supposed</em>to be slightly-above-ordinary.  Make note of all the things you said in the PM thread about the average EPer compared to the average human today, as well as the average PC vs the average NPC.<br/><br/>As I remember a phrase from one of your posts:  What do you<em>mean</em>we had a break in last month?  Why are we only learning about this<em>now</em>?<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=163921.msg7740272#msg7740272">Quote from: CarnivalOfTheGoat on 17-02-2013, 23:18:08</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">Just because of the type of campaign we chose, we will be dealing with exsurgents and TITAN technology. That means that sooner or later, we <em>will</em> be disadvantaged. Odds are good that sooner or later someone will 'pick up' something that will 'pick them up' instead. These things aren't Mario Brothers power-ups, they're alien deathtraps meant to infect and destroy. I agree that a hero shouldn't die of blood-poisoning after stepping on a rusty tack mid-journey, but I don't think that heroes necessarily have to be powerful, or that fighting through dreadful setbacks is non-heroic.</blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>Disadvantaged does not mean down and out.  Disadvantaged just means that we aren't standing godlike over the battlefield, wielding plasma guns and particle beam bolters with Reaper morphs while our opponents are natives with sharp sticks.<br/><br/>I fully expect, given that we're investigating TITANs, to be on the underside of things.<br/><br/><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=163921.msg7740272#msg7740272">Quote from: CarnivalOfTheGoat on 17-02-2013, 23:18:08</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">And given the exsurgent-interests of this team, I don't think 'hero' is necessarily a motivator for all of the party.<br/></blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br/>Ishinari's interest isn't the exsurgents.  Ishinari wants to see Giza.<br/><br/>EDIT: Also, can<em>anyone</em>answer my questions about Blue Box Gate Controllers and Smart rounds?  They're posted on this page.