Ask HN: Negotiating Salary
Okay, cool, you are expecting an offer — congratulations — and you are trying to figure out how much you “should” get paid - i.e. what’s the market price for you, and how you’ll feel if you get offered less, and how to get the best price.<p>To figure out how much you <i>should</i> get paid, you need to understand what labor market *you* are in first. Then you’ll need to understand what labor market the company is in.<p>Just to remind you, $40&#x2F;hr for a <i>high quality</i> frontend dev is exceedingly cheap in the US. Especially if it’s truly an hourly rate, not a contractor rate. FAANG companies all in pay at least probably $165k&#x2F;yr + benefits (so call it at least $100&#x2F;hr) for a solid junior frontend dev. Startups that don’t pay that must compete with better stock offers, interesting and compelling idea &#x2F; mission &#x2F; founder team.<p>So, do you meet the standards that would let you charge this rate? Broadly speaking that means: excellent English and communication skills, ability to live and work in the US, top-tier educational background, good to very good engineering skills, and relatively young.<p>If you don’t meet this profile, then you need to look at another market to assess your own current potential. I’d probably check out fiverr, toptal and upwork right now, today, and check out what people “like you” charge on those sites. You will probably be surprised to see a really big range for frontend dev. I’m guessing $15&#x2F;hr to $225&#x2F;hr at least at upwork. What’s the difference? Quality, communication, speed of work, oh, and also the really big one - picking good customers. The best paid engineers pick great companies to work for, and you should consider this carefully while you decide what to do about an offer.<p>As a side note, you may find that people like you are typically charging 25-30&#x2F;hr on upwork, and that might help you feel good about a lower offer from the company.<p>I’m going to read between the lines from your report and say that the CTO was not lying - It sounds like they routinely hire people with your background for less than $40&#x2F;hr. As you  said, you were lying (to him) when you said you’d only take $40, and I would guess that getting this offer would put you in a much better position than your local peers or vis-a-vis your current gig. So, at some level, don’t worry - your first job is to get the gig, then get the best price.<p>Given this, the first thing to say is that you should be friendly with the recruiters and get an offer, any offer. Once the company has made an offer, they will be emotionally locked in on recruiting you.<p>While you’re waiting for this offer, you should know there are three types of US companies who do this kind of outsource distributed team type recruiting - some of them provide low value technology work - usually contracting services, sometimes just bad startup ideas. Some of them provide high value technology work - better contracting or good startup ideas. Some of them are principled super high value companies (like github say). You are not being recruited by the last one. Generally I would expect that a well run “high value” company like this would have a different conversation with you than just grinding you down on price through shock, so I think you should understand you’ll likely be working for a company that has to watch its margins.<p>For instance, if the company makes $100k&#x2F;yr off each dev, that’s a very different amount of negotiating room for you than if they make $1mm&#x2F;year off each dev. You should try and figure out what situation you’re in.<p>With all this in your mind, when you get that offer, holding in your mind the fact that you can go get rolling at upwork or toptal tomorrow and if they lowball you, and you still want the job, you can just start out saying “Thanks, the offer is exciting, the company is great, I want to start tomorrow, but can you explain how I can accept this number?” And, then wait. You could ask that a few times. It’s not no. It’s just “please tell me the reasons I should accept.” You could say “The CTO said my fair rate was super high for your company; do your frontend devs ever get paid at that rate? It seems well below market to me for where the company is located.” These are powerful questions and they signal you’re thinking about your value to the company as well as the labor market.<p>Psychologically, even if they are like “25&#x2F;hr or GTFO”, you can say “Look, I’m worth more than that. Let’s do this, I’ll take $25&#x2F;hr for a two months. That’s long enough to assess me, and for me to assess you and make sure I want to continue. Make me an offer that ratchets up to $40&#x2F;hr in two months; you can let me go at the two month mark if you’re unhappy.” That doesn’t cost you anything - the company can almost certainly still just fire you regardless — but it solves the company problem: hiring in budget, and they will definitely make more than $15&#x2F;hr from you if you are any good. So, this sort of counter can be effective. And, paired with “How can I say yes to this offer which doesn’t even promise you’ll get me to a fair number ever? How can I do that?” Will make anybody but the most sociopathic of recruiters feel something.<p>Good luck!