Hun sample finds in Kazakstan
Thread: Hun sample finds in Kazakstan
johen
Elite member Achievements:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
Three main Xiongnu Y hgs were C, Q and N. R was small minority.
Here are ancient DNA samples of Xiongnu/Hunnu haplogroups:
Places of origin of samples (four graveyards, not just one):
1) Egin Gol river valley cemetery in Mongolia
2) Duurling Nars cemetery in Mongolia
3) Barköl cemetery in Xinjiang, China
4) Birlik cemetery in Kazakhstan
Paternal lineages:
East Asian Y-DNA haplogroups (ca. 82%):
Haplo C2e - 3
Haplo C2 - 7
Haplo C - 1
Haplo Q1a2 - 3
Haplo Q1a3a - 3
Haplo Q1b - 1
Haplo N1c-Tat - 3
Haplo O3a2 - 1
West Eurasian Y-DNA haplogroups (ca. 18%):
Haplo R1a - 3
Haplo R1b - 1
Haplo I2c - 1
again, R1a, Q1a2 and C series in Alati since neolithic
Individuals from Lokomotiv and Shamanka II were found to possess haplogroups K, R1a1 and C3, and individuals from Ust'-Ida and Kurma XI were found to belong to haplogroups Q, K and unidentified SNP (L914). For those individuals belonging to haplogroup Q, further experimentation to examine sub-haplogroups of Q revealed that these individuals belong to sub-haplogroup Q1a3
Hollard et al., Strong genetic admixture in the Altai at the Middle Bronze Age.
In the same way, the patrilineal gene pool revealed the presence of different haplogroups (Q1a2a1-L54, R1a1a1b2-Z93 and C)
R1a1a1
HV2a1 +G13708A
Originally Posted by Sile
they state a elite hun
the type of burial and his outfit showed that this young man belonged to the Hun elite and may have been related by the origin to the ancient Turkic tribes of Kazakhstan. DNA analysis of an ancient Hun of the skeleton determined the haplogroup L of Y-chromosome and mtDNA D4j12, which is evidence of the Asian origin of the paternal and maternal lines of this ancient find from Europe
so his father was also Hg L and also elite family
Thats because the Elite/Proto Huns were East Iranic as I wrote above. No wonder you find West_South_Central Asian yDNA among them.
Even the Turkic tribe they are talking about (Argyn) are known to be of mixed origin.
The Argyn (Kazakh: Арғын) clan is a constituent of the Kazakh ethnicity. The present-day Argyns of Kazakhstan are generally regarded as descended from a nomadic people known as the Basmyl and both names are said to mean "mixed tribe".
Also take in mind two Hun period samples turned out J2a some years ago.
Xionites, Chionites, or Chionitae (Middle Persian: Xiyon; Avestan: Xiiaona; Sogdian: Xwn; Pahlavi: Huna), or Hunni, Yun or Xūn (獯), were an Iranian-speaking people[1] who were prominent in Transoxania and Bactria.
The Xionites (Chionitae) are first mentioned with Kushans (Cuseni) by Ammianus Marcellinus who spent the winter of 356-57 CE in their Balkh territory. They arrived with the wave of immigration from Central Asia into Iran in late antiquity. They were influenced by the Kushan and Bactrian cultures, while patronizing the Eastern Iranian languages, and became a threat on the northeastern frontier of the Sassanid Empire.[1][2]
In 1944 Carlile Aylmer Macartney wrote:[5]
" We must consider briefly a third nation playing a role in our sources: the Kermichiones. Who were these people? They cannot have been the Turks-Toue-Kioue, since their embassy reached Constantinople while the Avars were still negotiating with Rome for settlement inside the frontier-probably, therefore, as early as AD 558, whereas the true Turks appeared there first in 568; further, their ruler's name was `Aσκήλτ or Scultor, while the Khagan of the Turks at that time was Silzabul, Dizabul, or Istämi. Neither can they have been the Juan Juan, as Marquart suggests; nor the Epthalites, who were well known to the Byzantines and would not have been described in this way. Moreover, the Epthalites were known as White Huns, and Mr. Bailey has pointed out that the word Karmir xyon, meaning Red Chyon, occurs in a Pahlavi text in juxtaposition with SpEt xyon, White Chyon. The name Chyon, originally that of some other race, was "transferred later to the Huns owing to the similarity of sound". The nation can hardly be other than that which appears in the 4th century, under the name of Chionits, in the steppes on the north-west frontier of Persia. These Chionites were probably a branch of the Huns, the other branch of which afterwards appeared in Europe, the latter appear to have attacked and conquered by the Alans, then living between the Urals and the Volga about AD 360, while the first mention of the Chionites is dated AD 356. In the 5th century the name is replaced by that of the Kushan or of the Kidarite Huns, who are clearly identical with the Kushan.
A more recent specialist, Richard Nelson Frye[6] wrote in 1991:
" Just as later nomadic empires were confederations of many peoples, we may tentatively propose that the ruling groups of these invaders were, or at least included, Turkic-speaking tribesmen from the east and north, although most probably the bulk of the people in the confederation of Chionites and then Hephtalites spoke an Iranian language (...) This was the last time in the history of Central Asia that Iranian-speaking nomads played any role; hereafter all nomads would speak Turkic languages.
As written above. the Proto_Huns were an East Iranic people. With time passing the Huns turned into a confederation of Iranic-Turkic-Mongol elements with the final result that Turkic language took the overhand in Central Asia. The Huns themselves are described to have clothed and lived just like the Scythians.
Early Hun Period => Iranic
Later Hun Period => mixed confederation
holderlin
Ah man. I don't want to do this argument again. Why did I bother. I studied this subject so much it made me sick of Huns for years.
I could certainly go to the shelf, grab my pile of papers and begin listing strange things like the names of every Hunnic leader in recorded history with language of origin.
Originally Posted by Alan
As usual you don't interpret the things in the right way
Yeah, right. Nearly every time you post you essentially deny gravity. It's absurd, or perhaps the forum admins genius. I haven't figured it out.
Huitzilopochtli
K1a1b1b
Maternal lineages:
East Asian mtDNA haplogroups (ca. 83%):
Haplo D4 - 19
Haplo D4o1 - 9
Haplo D5a - 1
Haplo D5 - 1
Haplo C4a1 - 1
Haplo F1b - 4
Haplo G2a - 1
Haplo G2 - 1
Haplo B4 - 1
Uncertain origin mtDNA haplogroups (ca. 3%):
Haplo M - 2
West Eurasian mtDNA haplogroups (ca. 14%):
Haplo U5a1a - 2
Haplo U2e1 - 1
Haplo U2 - 1
Haplo J1 - 2
Haplo H - 1
Thanks for providing the statistics. If the Xiongnu were immigrants from Siberia, we would expect them to ancestrally to have been a mixture of West Eurasian Y haplogroups (R1a, R1b, I2) and native Siberian Y haplogroups (Q). Grouping these haplogroups together we have 12 out of 26 (46%) of the Xiongnu samples in the "Siberian" group. They could be descendants of either the Okunevo or Karasuk cultures and we would expect them to speak a Tocharian-like language, Iranian, or Yeniseian. The latter two have published support with Yeniseian having more backers. When the Siberians migrated to Mongolia they would have met agriculturalists from Northern China with haplogroups C and N1c. They would likely have been conquered and absorbed by the Siberians with a superior Indo-European derived technological package. The Xiongnu were eventually routed by China and Altaic speaking groups (Turks, Para-Mongols) richer in haplogroup C became dominant. At least that's the story which seems most likely at the moment.
R1b - L21/S145*
more celtic
Originally Posted by johen
Scythian had elongated skull also, which meant "sun" in shamanism.
As far as I know, hairstyle was not a fashion, but a tradition to nomad people. So the original descendants kept their tradition, I think.
Think about the hairstyle of Magyar who shaved their heads except three long braids. This tradition has been kept until 19 century in East Europe.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=dvV...20long&f=false
Moreover, I think polish Sarmatianism from 16c to 18c was also the same case.
Traditional Slavic Hair Styles:
Maybe Yazidi man with plaited hair. Northern Iraq(I am not sure):
same hair style in american indian:
http://imageenvision.com/photo/7058-...d-bull-by-jvpd
So you confirm what I wrote! Pops adopted "traditions" of other pops without true ethnical links with them!
Do you really think that the above people adopted the tradition of just the other people as a fashion like now? If you think so, there is nothing I can do say.
uche
Could it be that the Huns are the descendants of the root of the Kura Araxes culture(linked with Ubaid and Sumerian cultures), which is associated with the Areni-1 findings?
Could it be that the origin of Y-haplogroup L and T are in the oldest Kura Araxes culture people, and that the Huns are descendants of these oldest Kura Araxes culture people? These Kura Araxes culture people spoke a Proto Turk language, and tribes associated with them are described in the Sumerian tablets like "Turukku"(Turukkaeans) and "Subar", their basis was in the Urmia River region.
Please have a look at the paper of study "Areni-1 Cave, Armenia: A Chalcolithic–Early Bronze Age settlement and ritual site in the southern Caucasus", "Keith Wilkinson":
"The 14C date on the charcoal from the clay ball associated with Burial 1 suggests that the ritual during which the skulls were plastered into the vessels took place around 3970–3800 CAL B.C. (TABLE 1)."
"The results of excavations undertaken at Areni-1 Cave extend the date for the first appearance of Kura-Araxes-type artifact assemblages to 4100–3800 CAL B.C., several hundred years before the previously accepted earliest date (Kushnareva 1997: 49; Kiguradze and Sagona 2003: 38–94; Kohl 2007: 86–104). "
T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
H95a1 ..Pannoni
North Alpine Italian
Originally Posted by uche
Maybe.................we have the following
Haplogroup LT
Time of origin:
+ 30 kya
Sind Valley
and then this from the project teams
the most recent common ancestor of T1 and T2 was a single individual and he might have lived in Azerbaijan, or Bhutan, or somewhere in between, or somewhere a bit further south or west, but I doubt if he or his sons and grandsons travelled very far from the region where they were born. As far as we can tell, after 10000 years only 3 of their descendant lines had survived (two from T1 and one from T2).
T2 is the new T y-group found about a year ago from Bhutan IIRC
có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo
when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.
1. sumerian had elongated head, but jericho people plastered skull. However, suemrian's custom of the elongated skull and their armenoid nose was closely related with armenian, as far as I know.
2. btw, Did Kura Araxes culture people speak in proto-turk language, connecting to sumerian?
R1a*
HV1b2
Don't think so. If that is the case than Chinese (Cantonese & Madarin) is also from the Caucasus.
Turkic is a 'Mongoloid' language and related to Chisese languages. Original Turks were 'Mongoloid' people / race from Altai/Baikal area/region.
So Turkic language, like Chinese, is originally from the EASTERN Eurasia..
Last edited by Goga; 04-12-16 at 23:14.
Sumerians were 'Iranid' (ARYAN) and NOT 'Armenoid'.
Tukish is Altaic or 'Turkic' , while Hungarian is Uralic or 'Ugric'. If Turkic is from the Caucasus then the Mongolian langauge is also originally from the Caucasus.
Altaic and Uralic belong to the same group and are both 'Mongoloid'
I did not say it occurred like today modes (changing every year or almost); but pre-Celtic/Celtic/latinized people of Gallo-Romania adopted Germanic (>Frankish and others) names without thay speak Germanic language, and in an overwhelming way. Would you some examples? It's not the first time a pop adopted foreign habits even when HATING the dominant pop! Human people are like that as a whole (tears).
What do you think when people of diverse culture background are adopting nazi fashions spite their lack of common origin (I recall the Nazi's adopted "roman" fashions spite their supposed "pure >Germanic" inspiration! (without any political aim here, only "anthropology")
That is true, but that traditon was changed when the dominant one became weak.
We are talking about braid hairstlye culture in East Europe, which had been kept until 19 century. It meant that the hairstyles last at least 1,000years or soemtimes 2,000 years.
So I said that original descendant has kept their tradition, which meant ethnic mix.
See the R1a1 and Q1a2 in altai, where they were always together from Neolithic to Hun.
Bronze mongolia:
And scythian were archaeologically altai natives also, having drinking cup of human skull like american indian. And East scythian had bird hair style, and west one shaving their head except one long braid, which were also american Indian customs. This R1a people attacked East Europe.
And the R1a Hun (1 or 4 braids), avar(2 braids), Bulgar(1 braid) and magyar(3 braids). Seems like they kept american indian traditions. And this kind of tradition was recently in East Europe.
Can you think it was adopted without ethnic mix? Of course there would be some people to adopt it w/o ethnic mix, who would not keep it for a long time.
Hun(looks like 4 braids)
Last edited by johen; 05-12-16 at 06:52.
edit........
Originally Posted by Goga
The term Mongoloid is indeed equal to the Eastern Eurasian skull type, however the the medieval Mongol language is a product of the earlier Turk language. And the majority of the Turks/Huns(and the Turk language) belonged to the Western Eurasian skull type. Another note is the fact that the oldest kurgans are found in the Kura Araxes culture (Urmia region), this burial type is associated with the medieval Huns, which means that the ancestors of the Huns should have came from the Urmia region. As far as we know the Sumerian language is an agglutinative language which is equal to Altaic/Dravidian/Uralic type of languages. The Sumerian language is a non-Indo-European(non-Aryan) and non-Semitic language. The Sumerians are the descendants of the Ubaid culture people, and several archaeological studies have proven that the Ubaid culture people are the same as the Kura Araxes culture people. The Sumerian tribe names like "Turukku"(Turukkaeans) and "Subar" indicate that the language of Kura Araxes - Sumerian people is a Proto Turk language.
As far as I know, the most important horse installments are bit (botai culture) and stirrup. I think the idea regarding two installments could be created in steppe area by riding a hose for thousand years. It would be difficult to get the ideas thru trial and error processes in mountain area. It was historically said that the Hun used the stirrup.
And I always ask why the oldest kurgan is over there, b/c the Kurgan like pit grave is closely related with pit-house, siberian culture. So I think ANE factors in middle East also has something to do with the following green pottery migration from lake baikal. And language also.
pit-house In Canada
You don't get me. Turkic IS an eastern Eurastiatic language. It has nothing to do with West Asia or Mesopotamia or Iran. Turkic is much closer to other east Eurasian languages. Turkic is part of that family.
Yeah, I do agree with you that Ubaid culture and advanced (Aryan) cultures in the Caucasus were simillar to each other. Why? Becasue all those advanced 'Aryan' cultures had their roots in the Iranian Plateau. Those people were WEST Asian people and were not from the eastern Eurasia.
Sumerians language is OLDER than PIE. When Sumerian came into the existence there was no such thing as PIE in the Steppes. Sumerian language was a WEST Asian language and was not from the eastern Eurasia
. While Turkic is originally from the eastern Eurasia, because ALL relatives of Turkic language live in the eastern Eurasia.
Turkic is a 'Mongoloid' language in grammar, vocabulary and pronunciation. It is a scientific FACT and nobody can change this fact! People should be not ashamed of their roots, but be proud of their roots and embrace it. When people find peace with themselves accept their own roots and respect their own ancestors they are much more successful in the lives. We are all human, we are all the same at the end of the day.
That's why I can't get along with people who don't have peace, have inferiotiy complex, have hidden agenda and are trying to twist their own history. They will FAIL big time, history can't be change. It is part of our DNA. You can fool human societies, you can fool yourself, but you can't fool human DNA (nature) or even GOD!
And I always ask why the oldest kurgan is over there, b/c the Kurgan like pit grave is closely related with pit-house, siberian culture. So I think ANE factors in middle East also has something to do with the following green pottery migration from lake baikal.
As far as I know the oldest 'Kurgans' have been found in West Asia.
As far as I know the oldest known 'sky burials' (burial = kurgan) is Göbekli Tepé.
Göbekli Tepé kurgan is at least 9000 years old! That is 7,000bp
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe
Also, HUGE Kurgans in Trialeti region, Georgia. Equal to the age of the oldest Egyptian pyramids (Egyptian pyramids = kurgans). Trialeti KURGANS were similar to much later late Indo-European kurgans in the Steppes.
extremely interesting. HUGE stone round Kurgan in Trialeti region, Georgia (7:28mins in video) is almost same as round pyramid in mexico:
In a suburb of Mexico City sits a circular pyramid, partially covered by a lava field from the Xitle volcano. The pyramid of Cuicuilco rises to no more than 18 meters in height, though measures 120 meters in diameter. Excavated for the first time by Mexican archaeologist Manuel Gamio in 1917, the original height is estimated to have been 27 meters.
http://www.ancient-wisdom.com/pyramids.htm
another round pyramid in mexico
http://calixtlahuaca.blogspot.ca/200...mposition.html