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About the Wars of Reaving
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Author Topic: About the Wars of Reaving (Read 2254 times)
Grahad
« on: 11 August 2022, 14:33:50 »
I was mulling about the possible future hardships of the ilClan and the Homeworld clans came to my mind.
Since I took a break more or less when Diana Pryde's bloodname claim was hot stuff, I missed all the fun of the Steel Vipers little tantrum.
So, based on what I could gather as of 3090:
-the homewold Clans abhor "Inner Sphere" taint but still want to conquer the IS ( Bastion doctrine)
-the scientist cast was, by large, sent to push up daisies after they tried to rebel
-the mechs tied to the "tainted" clans have been largely ( totally?) scrapped ( I do have reservations about the Loki as well tbh)
-now, and this is where I can't find anything, I remember a discussion about how one of the reason of the Reaving was the fact that resources in the Kerensky Cluster were dwindling and the At Home Clans needed more materials to survive.
I would like someone more knowledgeable than me to confirm the last point since, if confirmed, it could mean a Mad Max scenario for the Homeworlds.
Re: About the Wars of Reaving
« Reply #1 on: 11 August 2022, 15:50:02 »
The most ardent Crusaders, Clan Smoke Jaguar, did indeed suffer material shortage because they are pirates and saw easy pickings in the Inner Sphere. That said their Annihilation set off a series of events that caused the Clans to build up their forces. This in turn caused deficiencies in the Home Worlds while the Inner Sphere Clans could draw on their colonies for support. This set off the competition and Steel Viper was just the most aggressive combatant. Conflict was inevitable and the fall of Clan Smoke Jaguar in the Home Worlds by the Spheroids was just the opening volley
« Last Edit: 11 August 2022, 16:22:15 by AlphaMirage »
Natasha Kerensky
Queen of Spades, First Lady of Death, Black Widow
Quote from: Grahad on 11 August 2022, 14:33:50
It's the _Aggressors_ who want to destroy Spheroid "taint" at its source by invading the Inner Sphere. The implication is that it would be a war of annihilation, with the Aggressors taking the gloves off — ortillery, possibly WMDs, and certainly no zellbriggen.
The _Bastions_ also consider Spheroid "taint" a paramount danger, but they want to seal the Homeworlds off from the Inner Sphere, not invade the Inner Sphere.
Any scientist that even smelled like they had collaborated with the Society was put to death and no doubt that included some who were actually innocent. But the percentage of losses in the Scientist Caste differed from clan to clan based on the degree of infiltration by the Society. The Coyotes lost practically all their scientists, while other clans lost fewer or none.
The only two mechs that the surviving Homeworlders purposefully took out of production are the Cephalus and the Osteon, both Society designs. They kept the third Society omnimech, the Septicemia, in production. The destruction of the Wars of Reaving caused Homeworlds production of some Clan designs to inadvertently cease, while others were purposefully replaced (like Phantom for Fire Moth).
That's a background factor, not a cause. A power play by the Steel Viper Khan was the cause of the Wars of Reaving, specifically using Spheroid "taint" as an excuse to weaken opponents by reaving "tainted" blood heritages. The Society and Bandit Caste took advantage of the confusion to make their own bid for independence, which further added to the chaos. Clan raiding economics made things worse because many clans and enclaves relied too heavily on trials of possession rather than self-sufficiency, which meant they didn't have the right supplies and logistics when the shooting really started. But that wasn't a cause of the Wars of Reaving in the way that the Vipers and Society/Bandits were.
We don't know what happened in the Homeworlds starting a short time after the Wars of Reaving ended. So you could certainly imagine a descent into a Mad Max society as the decades wear on. But when we last left them, the surviving three Homeworlds Clans were intact, had created a fourth clan, were working together at Grand Council meetings, were rebuilding, and were militarily active in the near Deep Periphery. There was no immediate descent into a post-apocalyptic society, just the opposite in the early years.
« Last Edit: 11 August 2022, 19:47:14 by Natasha Kerensky »
"Ah, yes. The belle dame sans merci. The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off. The kitten with a whip. That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles? It could be a million as far as I know. I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't. And the universe is not much different after all that. I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."
Thanks for the answers, it's less bleak than what it looked like.
Specifically, I found on Sarna mention of the fact that the Bastion doctrine still had the invasion of the IS as the ultimate goal and that "they ( the Homeworld Clans) would even go so far as to get rid of any 'Mechs and equipment associated with the Invader Clans".
No doubt, there were dead clans and dead planets after the Wars of Reaving. But the uncontrolled warfare was over, and with the exception of some authorized raiding into Hanseatic and Imperio territory, the surviving Homeworlds Clans were focused on rebuilding and possessed a decent base to build from. Whether they actually rebuilt to new heights, fell into darkness, or languished in between is just unknown.
Specifically, I found on Sarna mention of the fact that the Bastion doctrine still had the invasion of the IS as the ultimate goal
WoR Supp specifically says of the Bastion policy, "the only contact tolerated with the distant Inner Sphere would be the coming invasion." So yes, the Bastions assume another Clan invasion, but their timeline is longer and methods less radical than the Aggressors. Obviously, as of 3150-ish, there has been no invasion, which maybe indicates the Bastions won that argument and their timeline was pretty long or that there have been other developments in the Homeworlds.
and that "they ( the Homeworld Clans) would even go so far as to get rid of any 'Mechs and equipment associated with the Invader Clans".
There's a list of every battlemech phased out of the Homeworlds in WoR Supp, p. 19. Only one out of 16, the Arctic Wolf, was phased out because of Inner Sphere "taint". It was built in the Inner Sphere, and the few examples in the Homeworlds were taken apart. Everything else on that list was either a Society design, no longer had production facilities in the Homeworlds (destruction or moved to the Inner Sphere), or was replaced by a more desirable design.
JAMES_PRYDE
Stephanie & Jiyi Chistu "Restoring Honor to CJF !"
Personally reckon around 3200, just after all the ilClan stuff starts to settle down, the Aggressors will invade, possibly with Bastion in tow, again a reset, but a few new things.
Homeworld Culture, technology and mechs would be interesting to see, how "alien" would it be to the ilClan era IS ? Again, how the Clans were viewed in the early days of OP Revival...
Quote from: JAMES_PRYDE on 12 August 2022, 06:47:11
Yeah, honestly, the way WoR and WoR Supp left the Homeworlds Clans was a little boring/disappointing. The Bastion/Aggressor factions are just the Warden/Crusader factions dialed up to 11. The number of Clans has been reduced to four under a Star Adder hegemony. Same old omnimechs and other designs for the most part. Same old caste system with trueborn warriors at the top. Same old unit organization. Despite all the turmoil and upheaval of the WoR, the Homeworlds basically ended up where they began, just minus some Clans and worlds.
It would have been more interesting if the Society had won out. Different leadership, politics, and goals. Caste system reordered. Different weapons of war. Different unit organization. Etc. Could have developed into a genuinely new BT society instead of Clans Mk II: Now More Extreme.
I hope that if/when we do see the Homeworlds again they are a radically different evolution of the Clans.
BATTLEMASTER
Lightning From Another Zip Code
Considering when we last heard from the Clan Homeworlds, I think it's possibly that The Society or another entity could win in that timeframe.
Trombone Player, Lego Enthusiast, Engineer
Clan Smoke Jaguar, Delta Galaxy ("The Cloud Rangers"), 4th Jaguar Dragoons
"You better stand back, I'm not sure how loud this thing can get!"
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butchbird
'Just a Veteran Lurker
Like much of the 3070's period, the aftermath of the WoR simply screams "so much wasted potential". But the WoR itself is, even if quite brief, a very interesting event and excellent book/setting (if I had the opportunity to play battlespace (or its modern incarnation), I would've wet myself reading WoR). But to me, the potential in the aftermath itself isn't so much in the homeworlds themselves as the outside factions whom could use the homeworld clans as tools. This would fit quite nicely with the analogy of the barbarian tribes of the dark age/middle age.
Since I'm writing this, a few words on wasted potential: How I would have liked to see the evolution of the Blood spirits, how unfortunate the society was forced to act before it could have a chance at defeating the clans and, while this is purely a matter of taste even more so then previous comments, why did it have to be the most boring clans ('xcept for the cloud cobras) who survived?
Metallgewitter
Quote from: Natasha Kerensky on 12 August 2022, 10:42:08
I get the feeling though that caste relations are more homogenized then before. All remaining Homeworld Clans have no problems with treating their lower castes fairly. The Adders even have a so called Adjutant system which gives the leadership input (well the leader don't have to adhere to said input). The Lios always treated their lower castes well (when they were the Horses and I assume they still adhere to that tradition) and the Cobras and Coyotes aren't exactly oppressive either. The real question will be if they ever know that the Wolves took Terra and how they will react. Would be kind of ironic when they launch another invasion the day Kerensk'ys original farewell message reaches the IS
« Reply #10 on: 12 August 2022, 13:15:57 »
Cloud Cobras not oppressive, tell that to the Tanite Worlds
Strongly agree. The shakeup of the WoR would have been (or still could be) an excellent chance to break some of the "asskicking equals authority" mold of most BT societies.
"Wars result when one side either misjudges its chances or wishes to commit suicide; and not even Masada began as a suicide attempt. In general, both warring parties expect to win. In the event, they are wrong more than half the time."
- David Drake
I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, but I'm not willing to hang it by the neck until it's dead, dead, dead!
Intermittent_Coherence
More like they used Spheroid 'taint' as an excuse to lash out at anyone they didn't like and settle old scores. Seriously, they went after the Snow Ravens who wasn't even an Operation Revival Clan and had only the barest of Inner Sphere connections. The Star Adders backed them because they had projected, correctly, how Revival would go and had prepared accordingly only to be excluded from the invasions and wanted to offset the massive growth the Invading Clans had gained, only to finish the Vipers off at the end for being rabid ******.
Yeah. That way just their continued existence without any tech regression wouldn't break my SOD completely.
Thinking about it...
Star Adders are the biggest entity and are known for their stong strategic sense and rather pragmatic point of view. Cloud Cobras have their aerospace. Stone Lions their combined arms expertise. Coyotes have their strong scientist caste...which has been gutted but what else would they stand out for in this conjoncture? You have all the ingredients for a rather conventionnal rebirth of the homeclans.
As pointed out, while the clan system is what it is, all these clans have indeed a history of the ruling castes being less brutal in their dealings with the lower castes, hence, with their work cut out for them, the lower castes will be too procupied by the rebuilding and reorganizing effort to warrant a change of policy. Clan society hangs by the thread of sense of purpose, the dream of rebuilding the fabled Star League is still alive.
If the other factions don't experience a massive arms build-up, which would be surprising, the homeworld clans don't really need to change that much to stay relevant.
But two things stand out in the possible course of evolution. For the first time in their existence, the clans now have a vastly dominant player. While it can be argued whether it actually works, the clans are built for efficiency, and the Star Adders live by this factor. They're likely simply keeping the others around because they bring a higher expertise in some fields, and perhaps the competition factor. Their should be a certain form of conservatism of ways.
Speaking of ways...the way. Beliefs can be a powerfull ally in the accomplishment of the aspirations of a people. I'm loathe to go to far on this subject, for while I disagree with certain rules I do agree in following them, still it could be used to some extent by the litterature. Well and sparingly done, it could give a new dimension to the clanner undertaking, not to say anything of its ( all the more so if you adhere to the "clans as corporate entity" theory) identity as a faction. Now the Cloud Cobras actually pulling off to exact this kind of cultural influence on a Star Adder dominated clan society can seem far fetched, but the adders seeing the use and/or wisdom of it is somewhat rational. Or maybe I can't manage to live in the 21st century.
And of course you have the scorpion empire in the "neighborhood", that can lead to interesting exchanges and changes.
Crimson Dynamo
Opening hearts, minds, and throats since 2815
I hope for and dream of two things when the Homeworlds finally return to the setting...
1) The four remaining Clans at the end of the WoR have recreated all the fallen and Abjured Clans to effectively reset Kerensky's original vision (except the Not-Named, screw those guys). The Homeworlds return for REVIVAL 2.0 in the campaign that Cassius N'Buta describes at the beginning of the Revival Trials Turning Point:
"Nova Cats," he said, pointing to Khans Leroux and Carns, "you are
our archers, capable of efficiently dispatching foes before they can
close." He gestured to Falcon Khans Yvonne Hazen and Elias Crichell.
"Falcons, you are our light horse; Jaguars, you are our heavy horse.
The Ice Hellions are our skirmishers, the Coyotes our heavy armor,
the Hell's Horses, our light armor, the Ravens our siege engines, the
Cloud Cobras our scouts and observation towers. The Burrocks will
be our spies; the Ghost Bears, our shield wall; the Fire Mandrills, our
demoralizers. The Diamond Sharks will bring diplomacy during the
day, while the Goliath Scorpions become our nocturnal assassins.
The Steel Vipers will give us vision; the Blood Spirits, our morale; the
Wolves, our conscience."
2) The Homeworlds return with not just any old Khan or ilKhan at their head, but with an amalgamation of the very finest genes from across the legacies of all the Clans, a Clan Serpentor given flesh and on a mission to conquer... THIS I COMMAND!
"Well, I do, Marcus, and rule number one of the MAC has always been that the man with the plan leads. If we get shot up, I'm the first one to get my ticket punched. There are no flags in the MAC."
"And there never will be," Barton said, nodding his head in agreement.
Quote from: HABEAS2 on 02 April 2009, 16:13:26
"You guys are facing a freaking Shadow Division! These guys have strict policies against playing fair!"
"I don't care. Kill them. I planned the defense so I know it will work. If they claim otherwise, they're cowards. Any step back is a betrayal of me, and saying they don't have enough men is just an excuse for incompetence and disloyalty. Tell the Krypteia to do it if you're too soft but get it done." -Emperor Stefan Ukris Amaris I
Yeah, I get the sense that (hopefully) if the Homeworld Clans invade, they are gonna be sitting on a HUGE pile up of assets
How are Cobras influencing Adders ?
I am eager to see how (again hopefully) Scorpion Empire is involved in ilClan era, and possibly "Homeworld Invasion era"
Gonna have to pull out source books again, get a feel for Adders
Generic Clanner 24601
While I am interested in seeing the Home Clans again, I don't know if I want just want Clan Invasion 2.0. Are we going to really get any different story than the original other than bigger and badder? Add to the fact that it shouldn't make sense that they would be able to be a threat. There was no Succession Wars tech stagnation for the Inner Sphere this time around. A smaller population with less resources shouldn't be able to grow more powerful than the larger, more resource rich group without something extreme happening (like the tech stagnation). It's the same reason it wouldn't make sense for a Periphery nation to conquer one of the five main houses.
The only way I could see them becoming a threat is if the Society actually did win the War of Reaving after the IS Clans cut off contact. Then the pure amorality of their research and willingness to push far beyond the bounds of what IS and Clan scientists would be willing to push could be extreme enough to give them the edge.
I'd love to see them again, but I don't know how much them actually being a threat would make sense or that it would be that much different than the original Clan Invasion. But I can see some potential along the Society route. Start with refugees from the Clan escaping to the IS. The Society wouldn't even necessarily have to invade. If the HW Clans can convince the IS they need to invade, we could get a rather different sort of story than Clan Invasion 2.0. It would give the Society a possibilty of winning since they are fighting a defensive war.
Well, the new Star League invading would be a different storyline even if the HW Clans are still in charge, I just can't think of a good reason for Alaric to invade that doesn't require to fully unite the IS and need new targets (which is kinda boring honestly) or have the HW Clans attack and then get repulsed before being followed back to the Home Worlds (which just sets them up to be weak).
Quote from: Generic Clanner 24601 on 13 August 2022, 03:03:52
Why would a new Star League or whatever Alaric will call it go into a space that is notorious for being poor? So far he will have his hands full to survive the next years given the state of the IS as of 3152. Of course what might happen is a state of permanent war in the IlClan era as Clanners love war above all else and they badger themselves and the Houses into ruins to have the Homeworlds swoop in for another glorious Revival. That would make up for the difference in püopulation and ressources because as you said this time the IS is technologically on a similar level (unless we get clan tech that is radically different)
Quote from: Metallgewitter on 13 August 2022, 03:28:37
Alaric's pride is the only reason he would need. But I agree, without either fully getting the IS or a reason where the various factions would work together, I don't see it actually happening.
I also don't see the wars becoming so destructive that the HW would stand a chance. It would require CGL to begin more or less eliminating many mechs and new techs and not coming out with anything new for a bit. If there is technological parity, then the HW have no real chance at being a threat to the IS as a whole.
BrianDavion
I tend to suspect the home worlds are eaither dead or so changed as to be unreckongizable, as early as 3060 we know they where suffering a major resource crunch in the home worlds. things aren't likely to get any better
I didn't say the cobras were influencing the adders, I said the way could play a part in the Clans undertaking. Again, can't go to far for this can easily spill into a "religious" debate, but I will say this: when the steel vipers came into the inner sphere, they were baffled that the locals didn't greet them with open arms. Keeping the populace under control was a major drain on all the invading clans. But what if they'd had a mean to export their way of life (a man doesn't get himself killed for a few coins or petty distinctions, you must speak to the soul in order to electrify them), not to say "ideology"? Now this is a complex question, but the results of it could be quite a boon to a renewed invasion.
Quote from: BrianDavion on 13 August 2022, 06:25:27
Keeping in mind the theory of clan society being built around such industrial engineering concepts as lean manufacturing/management, just-in-time-production, etc (on which it can be hotly debated on their pros/cons/general effects on the run of thing). Keeping in mind that there is constant battling for ressources and hence constant reshuffling of the means of extraction/production/distribution (each time a trial is won, there has to be a certain mesure of reorganization...this can easily mean a logistical nightmare, notably)...Clan space dominated by one clan could actually reverse the downward spiral. Perhaps the ressources are there, the conjoncture simply kept the clans from exploiting them.
Just want to add, concerning the way: look at the islamic concepts around jihad and the arab expansion of the VIIth century...which can't be discussed but is quite interesting to ponder about in parralel with the homeworld clans oppurtunitys.
One last comment, which skirts the edge but I do think it is acceptable: consider the differences and relations between the concepts of heaven as seen through the prism of the holy trinity, heaven as "joining islam" (kind of like joining the force upon the death of a jedi) and the "heavenly mandate" of confucianism (which, to neophytes, looks like proto-communism and can fit quite well with the clan system of tought).
« Last Edit: 13 August 2022, 08:44:56 by butchbird »
nova_dew
Add to the fact that it shouldn't make sense that they would be able to be a threat. There was no Succession Wars tech stagnation for the Inner Sphere this time around. A smaller population with less resources shouldn't be able to grow more powerful than the larger, more resource rich group without something extreme happening (like the tech stagnation). It's the same reason it wouldn't make sense for a Periphery nation to conquer one of the five main houses.
Hate to say but historically it happens a lot, that a smaller population with less resources ends up ruling (mainly an army with only the resources in their immediate supply caravan), they don't have to remove all opposition, they just have to replace or displace the upper leadership, BT is partly the middle ages/dark ages in spaaaaaaaaaace! you just have to take the upper rulership positions from those who don't fall in line and maybe put down a few rebellions and you're done, wonder if we'll see a BT version of "The Harrowing of the North"
A member of Clan Ghost Bears Legal Team
CJC070
Agreed especially since there has been no raids in the Scorpion Empire for 50+ years and the taint was very strong in that Clan. Although the Society failed other disaffected groups could have risen up and accomplished a complete turn over the Clan system.
As a side note for all we know Alaric may attempt to contact/conquer the Homeworld Clans even if his current situation is tenable at best.
Quote from: nova_dew on 13 August 2022, 09:23:51
I just don't see it being the same situation. It'd be like if William was trying to commit genocide on all of Europe rather than conquer England. Besides, one of the reasons Clan Wolf did better than the others in the Clan Invasion was their logistics which suggests that coming with "just the resources you took with you" wouldn't be very effective.
But ultimately, I think the biggest reason is just wouldn't be that interesting. The Home World Clans have kinda been written into a corner where it's hard to do anything with them other than just doing Clan Invasion 2.0 but even more extreme.
Jellico
Spatium Magister
BattleMechs are the lords of the battlefield
Just wait for the retcon novel revealing in a triple cross the Blood Spirits swiped Kerensky's body before the Wolves got to it and it remains hidden in their buried blood chapel guarded by Wolverines.
Quote from: Jellico on 14 August 2022, 04:09:04
What is this novel called ?
"You Only Live Twice"?
Don't Sell the Homeworlds
pokefan548
The Barracuda knows where it is, hence the -2 mod.
It turns out that every single Homeworld Clan and the Wolves claim to have Kerensky's body, when in fact his body was secretly lost at some point prior to the Golden Century and everybody is just using a body double of a body double.
Jokes aside, yeah, I wish the Society had made more of an impact. Based on how they're described, you'd think there would be more of a split between the scientists who would want to just kill 'em all with viruses and kidnap civilians for random experiments that would make a Blakist doctor feel queasy and the scientists who, while they would have the sense not to "fight fair" against a clearly superior force, would at least have the scruples to not fall to that level. A side of the Society with more popular support and fewer hyper-dezgra acts to tick everyone off would have been really interesting in the ways they could potentially shape the Homeworld Clans even long after their inevitable defeat.
As for the Homeworlds, I doubt they've gone all Mad Max on us. I do think there will be some offscreen event or disaster that shakes them up a bunch, but despite the severe damage done, each of the four Homeworlds Clans are well on their way to recovery as of 3095. A slow recovery with more than a few setbacks, but definitely recovery.
Also, let's not forget that the Stone Lions have gotten permission to tinker with captured Society tech. I reckon when we see the Homeworlds again they'll become the "high tech space magic inventor" Clan that the Coyotes were before their scientist cast was mostly executed and the rest spayed/neutered. I certainly would not want to fight against a full-fledged, well-trained Clan packing iATMs and Nova-inspired electronics. And given that they're a Horse splinter... yeah, hovers zipping around slinging iATM HEs is scary.
« Last Edit: 15 August 2022, 10:50:27 by pokefan548 »
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Quote from: pokefan548 on 15 August 2022, 10:40:07
I was going to say each Clan has pieces of him. There were intense Trials of Possession for the drumsticks legs and wings arms
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