DFA: Discussion and Feedback
Double Fine Adventure
Poll : So did the game meet you expectations?
By iprigg, January 17, 2014 in DFA: Discussion and Feedback
So did the game meet you expectations?
1,184 members have voted
1. So did the game meet you expectations?
Absolutely Yes
Mostly Yes
I feel that something was missing
Mostly Not
AbnormalFetus
Mostly yes.
Charming and fantastic looking. Love the characters, great voice acting. Hipster lumberjack was a personal favorite.
The game (act 1) had a good pace for its length but was a bit to short and way to easy.
Im hoping for more challenge in the next chapter. More complex puzzels more items, more locations more challenge.
warci
Double Action Newbie
still something missing, but i'm a fussy customer
The story was absolutely great! The locations, the dialogs, everything was so well thought out and neatly constructed, the world really felt alive. And for a 100% fantasy world (and even multiple worlds) AND create a cohesive universe, that's a great achievement.
The only thing i missed was simply: more of it. I like having long conversations with characters, or plenty of options to choose from and influence the conversation in that way, but now it felt more like something that was barely interactive. I think this feeling was amplified by the easyness of the puzzles. It felt more like watching a movie than actively trying to make your way through this wonderful world.
I almost all of the negative feedback stems from this: you give us this magical and interesting world to explore, but then put us in some cart and give it a shove down some rails like a disney ride. I don't believe this was a conscious choice, but mostly due to lack of funds/time. Again, it's because the game's so frikkin' lovely that everybody longs for more...
I'm curious how i will feel about it after playing part 1 & 2 back to back!
empirimancer
Ankari
Action Newbie
I loved it! Numpad key shortcuts for dialogue options were something I sorely missed (I kept pressing them and wondering why they wouldn't work, lol), but other than that everything was awesome for me . More red herrings and complications would have been nice, too, but this was great imo (although maybe implementing different difficulty levels like in Monkey Island 2 MIGHT have pleased both backers and casual gamers).
KestrelPi
Mrs. Huggy
Yeah. The thing is, a percentage of the backers conform to some of those modern gaming/publisher standards.
The thing is, I feel like there's a kind of implied snobbery in this sort of statement. It's possible you don't mean it, but you're doing it anyway.
What I find important in games has nothing to do with some mythical 'modern gaming/publisher standards' and everything to do with me, my history as someone who plays games (which is likely just as long as yours, if that even mattered) and the various tastes and preferences that I've amassed over the years.
The way you put it it's as if some poor unfortunates have been brainwashed by publishers or by games in general and that they can't think past that to see the truth of how much better things were before (or something). Maybe that's what you do think on some level. But it's not the case.
It's not say even that I don't have my criticisms, or don't think they should be made. I've talked elsewhere about how I think they overdo hints in this part, and how I thought Vella could have been better defined as a character in the beginning.
But every time I see you framing the discussion as lamenting the attitudes of the modern gamer I find myself cringing a little. I like lots of games. Old games, new games, easy games, hard games, story games, pure mechanical games, and I like them all for a variety of different reasons. I think we live in a time where we are absolutely spoiled for choice, where big blockbustery titles are talked about by critics in the same breath as tiny one-person passion projects, and everything in between. Every type of gameplay under the sun is being explored and yet it still feels like there's room for more innovation.
I think about games, and game design a lot. I'm not stumbling into this conversation as someone who is naive and knows what they like but doesn't really know what they're missing or is too blind to see it.
Maybe I'm being a little unfair. I think your comments on the whole have been quite measured compared with some, but I do feel like there's this implied assumption that those who disagree are of a mind that just doesn't 'get it'.
MusicallyInspired
Cheeky Lamington
You're the exception to the "rule". Like it or not, the fact is that gaming has changed because it's reached a broader audience. That has resulted in a new modern attitude to gaming that everything should be streamlined and easy so the maximum amount of people can enjoy the game. That's the general consensus across the board. It was different back then and it was better.....in my opinion. I had hoped this Kickstarter would be comprised mostly of people who didn't share that view, sadly I was wrong. There are a lot of people who share my opinion, but even more who are content with everything. And that's not to say that I'm not content with what we've got. We got a new Tim Schafer story in adventure form that actually has some (albeit easy) puzzles. I'm thankful for that.
Regarding your comment about my belief that disagreeing with me means you 'don't get it', well you're saying the same thing about me when you get down to it. The phrase is just a vehicle to express the (valid) differences of opinion. The reasons that people bring up for disliking hard drawn-out puzzles and why they're "terrible", "pointless", or "outdated" game design choices come from a close-minded point of view. I feel that my opinion is not validated when people say things like that. There was more to it than just being stuck. It's an unfair blanket comment. I understand that that's how they viewed it, but proclaiming that it's a bad decision and there are no merits to it at all is just ignorant and slightly offensive. So yes, they "don't get it". Or more specifically, they "don't get" why I like it and don't see the merits. I'm not a glutton for punishment. I crave challenge.
I don't believe anybody is brainwashed, though. Just ignorant.
I just don't really buy that. I think people are exposed to such a variety of games these days that it's harder, not easier to be ignorant. When I was 7 I thought pretty much all games were platformers. Monkey Island wasn't just a great game, it was a revelation. Nowadays the exposure is just so much greater.
Also I don't think you don't get it. Your posts display enough thought that I can tell that you understand what you're criticising and that you just have different priorities. I just think that you have far too low an opinion of the modern fan of games and that is colouring the way you have the discussion in a way that I think could be described as occasionally condescending.
I have a low opinion of that way of thinking, that is, I have a low opinion of those priorities because I don't prioritize them, but I do not have a low opinion of the people who do (and prefer it, as the case may be). I'm sorry if I come across as condescending or snobbish. That's not my intention. It's probably just a poor choice of wording on my part in those instances.
eXistor_NL
I feel like something's missing. A lot of the game works wonderfully as I expected: humor, dialogue, art and music. They're all fantastic, but what I was not expecting is how shallow the game would be gameplay-wise. We were promised and oldskool PnC adventure. This is more like "my first PnC". I want to get stuck in these games, I want a large inventory, I want more locations and more options. The simplification of the interface is one thing (I'm not a fan personally, but I can let that one pass), but simplification of the puzzles is just a major offense. This was supposed to be for oldskool fans, but they made it for modern, casual audiences.
I'm absolutely not saying I dislike the game or feel my $250 donation is wasted, but I'm just disappointed that (so far) the game just isn't what was promised. Very much looking forward to act 2, maybe it'll come into its own then and my complaints will be dissipated.
$100 Bill in an Old Coat
I am disappointed by Act 1 and don't see how Act 2 can turn this around. I feel misled and betrayed. I was promised a classic adventure for traditional adventure fans. I received an oversimplified, streamlined version for the tablet generation. I expected Lucasarts, I got Telltale. I suppose the game is decent enough for what it is, but my expectations were higher. Looks like the rest of the backers have low expectations and will give Schafer a free pass, maybe a deserved one for past work. But I don't think I'll be around the next time they come to kickstarter.
Everyone are entitled to their opinions about the game, but please stay away from arrogant comment like that about other people, just because they don't share your opinions. My expecations were extremly high, and they were mostly met. It's not because Tim Schafers past but on what the whole Reds Team have done now.
But you see, your response merely confirms my observation. What you consider high expectations I consider a low bar. But feel free to elaborate with specifics.
You don't really know enough about my expectations and my feelings about the released Act 1 to make such a claim. Your opinion about the game is not the only valid one, and when you write the way you do, you just look come off as arrogant.
You are of course free to feel the way you do about the game, but please realize that it your opinion and not facts.
Total Action Forum Master
I expected puzzles. I got an interactive story. The story was nice though.
I backed this game because I got tired of Telltale's catering to the casual crowd and expected the man behind DOTT, Psychonauts, Full Throttle and parts of SMI and MI2 to restore my faith in the possiblity to still create old school brain teasing adventure games with creative puzzles.
In the Kickstarter video it was implied that adventure games are dead and that Tim and his company are going to revive them. What exactly did Broken Age revive? Games like it have been made in masses in the last couple of years, by Telltale and other smaller companies.
I am not disappointed with the money I invested in this, because I got the documentary and learned a lot about how to make adventure games from Tim Schafer. Unfortunately, I feel like I took his wisdom about how to design a good, challenging, satisfying puzzle more to heart than he himself.
I'll say though that the whole rest of the game has been masterfully done. Good story that keeps me hooked for Act 2, great twist in the ending that in retrospect makes a lot of sense (just like puzzles usually should in old-school adventure games), and the art style by Nathan Stapley indeed grew on me. The puzzles are really the only aspect that leaves me disappointed, but it was the one that I was looking forward to the most.
Couldn't have said it better.
k0SH
The Smell of Cinnamon Rolls
I backed this game because I got tired of Telltale's catering to the casual crowd
expected the man .. to .. create old school brain teasing adventure games with creative puzzles.
it was implied that adventure games are dead and that Tim and his company are going to revive them
Games like it have been made in masses in the last couple of years
I am not disappointed with the money I invested
99% agree!
I feel like I took his wisdom about how to design a good, challenging, satisfying puzzle more to heart than he himself.
The puzzles are really the only aspect that leaves me disappointed, but it was the one that I was looking forward to the most.
100.000% agree!!
Using a decimal point instead of a comma always confuses me lol.
Really enjoyed Act I. Ending blew my mind. Can't wait for Act II. Great job everyone at Double Fine.
That Kid in High School Whose Parents Were Out of Town a Lot
The more annoying side-effect of the "death of adventure games" (in the mainstream/general awareness sense) for me was the seemingly low familiarity with the genre. I suppose the name itself doesn't help in this regard, but I'd often see so many random things thrown under the "adventure" umbrella, from Tomb Raider to GTA (to anything that involved going on an adventure I guess). Actual adventure games were coming out, so they obviously weren't "dying" in the literal sense, but the overall awareness of what the genre is seemed to get more and more muddled.
Telltale and Quantic Dreams with their more recent games certainly breached that mainstream consciousness, so I'm guessing many people had their first exposure to "adventure games" that way. Maybe that's also why some have a hard time seeing or accepting "the other side" (talking both ways here). To those that started with LucasFilm/Arts, Sierra or whatever, the "interactive storytelling" games are just a (welcome or not) "niche within the niche", offshoot of the genre, to others a (welcome or not) "evolution"; but to those introduced this way, it's what adventure gaming is, and injecting them with challenging puzzles, breaking the "flow" and pace, is the (welcome or not) offshoot. I could see how that, combined with the streamlining trend, and the abundance of easily accessible games today, doesn't encourage looking back.
Then again, there have also been quite successful Monkey Island or Broken Sword remakes for modern systems, so maybe all that conjecture is unfounded.
What I'm getting at with all this rambling is, I'd wished both "subsets" of the genre could coexists in the mainstream again, and had high hopes Broken Age would be the title that brings a challenging adventure game with high production values into the spotlight. In that regard I can't help feeling increasingly disappointed with the puzzle design choices in Act I; and seeing Tim in interviews and Chris over here responding with "can't please everyone" to concerns and feedback about the puzzle design and difficulty, my (also initially high) hopes for Act II are kinda dropping as well.
If separated from those expectations, I'm sure I'll enjoy the experience as a whole. I certainly appreciate the craftsmanship and storytelling (which is a hugely important part of adventure gaming for me as well), the many little touches and details adding to the experience, the Documentary is unique and worth the pledge alone, the openness of the team has been a treat (which I'm sadly not expecting to be replicated ever again) and in the end I'm happy Tim Schafer and DF are making an adventure(-lite) game, even if it's not quite the game I'd envisioned.
If something like Act I was now put up on Kickstarter to fund the rest of development, I'd probably pass (and maybe get it somewhere down the line). But as I mentioned in another thread, so many other adventure-veterans followed in Tims crowdfunding wake, I'm just happy to have had been a part of that initial surge, and now having so many adventure-veteran-comebacks to look forward to (of course, they're all potential disappointments as well, and now I have even higher expectations of them ).
The issue with the game I'm more concerned about at this point is it's impact on the genre as a whole, as I really wouldn't want it to enforce the notion that this type of streamlined gameplay is truly "the only way to go". I also wouldn't want it to enforce the notion of the genre being "dead" in the eyes of some challenge-seeking adventure gamers, like our own Poplion was nearly ready to proclaim
Oh dear. TL:DR what Gins said.
Great points. I agree. I wish these two separate flavours of adventures would have different names. I thought that "classic adventure" and "modern adventure" were evident enough. Obviously, nobody else sees it that way. But we do need different names because they aren't the same. Their philosophies are different. It's good to see that "classic adventures" are not dead, though. Thoroughly enjoying Deponia and will check out Daedalic's other games post-haste when I have the moolah.
Captain Skank
Puzzles were too easy. Everything else was great. However, puzzles are a huge part of the experience for me. Story and puzzles need to have the same attention given to them. You can't sacrifice one for the other.
This, though I don't believe they would make them mutually exclusive.
There's definitely a lot of intentional favouring going on in the story's corner over puzzles. They're not mutually exclusive, no. But there is an alarming slant.
Starker
President of Popularity
I've been playing it some more and after the recent changes to the controls I'd change my answer from "something missing" to "mostly yes". Still would like to have at least a "look" verb and the puzzles are still a little too straightforward, but overall, I'm pretty happy with how the first half turned out.
Matzyboy
Puzzles were far too easy, I sort of wish there was a "hard" mode like in MI2.
Loving the sound and graphics though!
Best part of this kickstarter, for me, has been the documentaries for sure!
Bgitlin
I voted absolutely Yes because I think Double Fine did exactly what they set out to do: create a classic point and click adventure for the modern gamer. The over the top difficult puzzles are what turn a lot of more modern gamers off from point and click adventures. I wouldn't expect a game to have stupidly hard puzzles in the first act. I got stuck at the final part of Vella's story for a good thirty minutes trying to figure out how to get into the ship and had I been stuck any longer I probably would have gotten frustrated. The art was absolutely beautiful, the main menu alone blew me away, I just sit and stare at it every time I start the game up. The dialog was all greatly written, Jack Black was hilarious and the trees had me dying laughing "Ahh my roots" "Murderer!" And finally the soundtrack is incredible. The use of a real orchestra made it sound incredible and is great to listen to while I work.
Imo this game was a huge success. It proved that adventure games aren't dead by getting almost unanimous praise from critics (81 on metacritic), and that developers don't need to be bogged down by publishers. I would happily pay double any day to help continue this trend of making games for the consumer, funded by the consumer.
Thanks Double Fine and I hope you push to continue making more games like this.
Eulogize_MBG
I find it fascinating to hear people complaining about a lighter or 'childlike' tone. Have you not been following the 2PP videos? If so then how is any of this a surprise to you! The tone of Broken Age is far closer to something like Psychonauts, what with its colourful, whimsical surface but darker underbelly (should you choose to read it that way). Sure, it's no Brutal Legend but then it was never going to be. Play the game on its own terms and immerse yourself in the wonderful visuals and sound (the score really is the unsung hero here) and I find it hard to call the production anything less than a success.
As for difficulty, this is obviously something that could be debated for a year and a day. Personally I enjoyed the emphasis on story and character over classical puzzle solving. I'm quite aware though that adventure game fans come in all shapes and sizes and that a lack of pure P&C gameplay will leave some people wanting. I do hope the team don't take this kind of feedback and push things too far in the opposite direction however. I heard Tim say in several interviews over the last week that he has listened to the comments and plans to make the game harder and more puzzle orientated in Act 2. I just prey that he doesn't let his core vision for the game be compromised by the whims of a very select group of people who I suspect when all is said and done are really looking for quite a different game than what BA actually is. For the truly hardcore there are a million and one European-made games out there designed to throttle your brain cells until they scream for submission. BA is not (and I'd content was never going to be) one of those games.
In the main I'm very happy with the game and am now eager to play Act 2. Given the limitations of the episodic format I was very pleased with the ending (I love the way the last frame echo's the first) and the questions it poses about the characters and world has me intrigued to see more. I'm also eager to see more of the documentary as for me that has been as valuable as the game itself (I'm sure the next episode showing the team breaking down and deciphering the launch will be fascinating).
Did it meet my expectations: yes, in spades!
Jr. Action Poster
1.) The game is great in itself. It has everything that players still would play and love it, even if they would get stuck. Sadly it doesn't have much puzzles where you really get stuck. If I don't get stuck on an adventure game for 1-2 days at least, it is no real adventure game for me (or: in the classical sense). I agree on modernization and new ideas. But puzzles were used to keep you in a story, keep you in a world. Too easy puzzles spoil all this.
2.) Also the "Look at" verb is missing so damn much. I want to know what my character thinks about certain items, about people. I don't want always direct interaction, I want to know what e.g. Vella thinks about her parents herself. And not only be able to talk to them. Even Grim Fandango (~1998), which had been criticized for missing verbs had the "e" key, which was for "examine". So Manny could talk to people, or pick up items, but he also would tell me as a player, what he thinks about people, or how certain things look to him. That's also about character depth.
3.) I'm afraid that 1+2 are connected. The interface is so radical easy, and so are the puzzles. That's also because if you have at least 1-2, or 2-3 verbs, you were able to hide hints about puzzles and make puzzle more difficult. While examining and "looking at" the world more closely your were able to find details and hints which could lead to the solving of a more difficult puzzle (when you used your brain).
4.) It's a pity that this is missing, while everything else is really great. Story, characters, world, art, music(!), story again, ideas, jokes, technical stuff (Linux love!). Why are the puzzles so easy, why do people finish it in hours? Whyyyyyyy? So I voted for "Something was missing". I love the story, I love EVERYTHING. I fell in love with the game. But it didn't gave me what I was looking for (puzzles!) but sadly it was advertised to be "classic" to some degree. With so easy puzzles, that requierement is not met. It really feels like a "light version".
5.) No joke: I would join another kickstarter ($30) for additional puzzles to this game. Broken Age Hardcore mode.
I enjoyed the emphasis on story and character over classical puzzle solving.
That's a good statement. However I'm wondering if not both can go together with good (more difficult) puzzle design. Imho adventure games always have an emphasis on story, otherwise they wouldn't be an adventure game. But the art of adventure games is to keep you as long as possible in this story. To fascinate you, to get you frustrated, but with a so damn good story and so much to explore, that you would never quit to play it until finishing it. That's the definition of a perfect adventure game.
It's like when reading a book which you can't stop reading, although adventure games should be more difficult than reading a book. ;-) It's perhaps more like: "Uh, I hate this puzzle. I want to know what is behind this door, but I'm stuck. Pff, I will do something different, I don't need you, you far too difficult adventure game! I quit." And then later on during the day: "Ahhh, I can't stop thinking about the story and this game. I have to give it another try. Yet again." [repeat all of this for a few days to a week] So. THAT's the definition of a perfect adventure game. It really is.
@kringel
In general I agree with your sentiment. Great puzzle design should keep you in the game, being challenging but not to the point that it removes you from the world. However, I think that this balance is a lot more subtle than some other commenter's would have you believe, and just making the puzzles in BA harder will not automatically lead to Act 2 being a better game in and of itself.
I read people talking about BA being a disappointment because they are not getting stuck on individual puzzles for hours or even days on end like they did with the classic games of yore. Truth be told, that was always the side of those games that I hated - getting to the point that I never wanted to touch a particular game again because the puzzle design was so wilfully obtuse! For me that is just not fun. It's worth noting that LucasArts games are remembered for other aspects other than just the difficulty of their puzzle design, and it is those aspects that I personally have the most love.
So sure, I fully expect the puzzle design in BA to get more interesting/deeper in Act 2, but my hope is that this is not at the expense of the rest of the game.
Himlakropp
HERE COME THE FEEEEEELS:
The moment that I decided to back the project 2 years ago(?), this was more or less exactly what I was expecting. Pretty, short, good puzzle & story quality. Bulls-eye! But after getting so involved in the project through the documentary, and establishing an emotional bond with the production of the game rather than the actual result, I think the whole thing got a little bit too "hyped" for many backers. Hyped expectations are seldom fullfilled, and knowing this I took the hype with a grain of salt. Thus I am a very happy customer. Those who expected to re-live the feelings they had when playing [their favourite game by Tim Schafer] however, were DOOMED to be disapointed from the start. It's a nice game, and the studio acheived what they set out to do.
IN DEPTH THOUGHTS;
Vella and Shay are pretty normal personality-wise, but live extraordinary lives. Add a little bit of humour to that, as is the case with Vella, and you get a very laidback, funny and calming game-experience in a quirky adventure-setting. Playing as Shay is more of a contemplative, philosophical experience where the audience are puzzling together the importance of being in control of your own life. Naturally, playing as Shay might come off as more "boring" than playing as Vella, but that on the otherhand is what gives diversity to the game. Serious questions contra quirky adventure. To top it off, the two stories are intertwined through the best twist I've been mindhumped by in a long time.
But I DO wish that I hadn't known so much about the game before playing it. I think that fresh impression of a work of art like this is very important in order to fully appreciate it. That being said, I already knew I would feel that way when I was watching the episodes last summer, and I do think that the joy the documentary gave me is a good trade off for the fresh impression of the game. GOOD WORK DOUBLE FINE!
anael
I like the style and the painterly look, and I was very excited by the first previews and static screenshots,
but the art and the animation are not coherent to me, backgrounds and characters seems to not hold together,
I'm not crazy about the animation cutout/stretchy style and the post-effects, all the technical tricks just seams too obvious to me.
I feel attracted by the universe but I have trouble getting into it totally,
maybe also because I found the beginning coming without introduction and a bit confusing.
But for me the 2 players episodes were really worth all the investment, even if I'm disappointed by the game itself.
I'll follow potential improvements or polishing if it comes, and give it another shot later anyway.
NEO_AMiGA
Way way way way too easy. It was no challenge but more a "click your way through a story and watch cut scenes" sort of game. Hoping for harder puzzles in act 2.
Mautomat
Voted something is missing.
Kinda torn on my impressions of the game. As a regular game purchase I would have been extremely satisfied. Great writing, story, art etc and I had a really good time with it. But as backer for a non-defined "old-school adventure" it really clashed with my subjective expectations on such a project. The most important things for me was great writing and entertaining intricate puzzles that have some form of twisted logic to them. The writing delivered but I found the puzzles extremely dissapointing.
Many I found to be barely puzzles, they were more lika tasks. Like, you need to cut something, you go to another screen, pick up knife, use knife on thing that needed cutting. Other than many of the puzzles were straightforward and obvious I really miss the more layered puzzles from the old Lucasarts titles. By that I mean that a seemingly easy problem would often send you off on a long chain of different puzzles to be able to solve the original problem. See picking up one of the map peices laying in front of you in Monkey 2. A simple thing to do, you would think, but the game required you to figure out, and solve multiple puzzles, just to fulfill that original objective.
So, yeah, I certainly got value for my money, especially counting in the rad documentary. But my own personal preferences would have been more fulfilled of the fantastic presentation had been thrown out, replaced with VGA graphics and MIDI soundtrack in favor of development and budget focused on the crafting of puzzles.
Also, cutting the game up in two parts didn't really do anything good in regards to my enjoyment of the game.