FiNe & the MBTI
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This topic has 49 replies, 11 voices, and was last updated 9 months, 3 weeks ago by Elisa Day.
Type: TiNe
Development: ll-l
F Attitude: Adaptive
As a sister thread to this one, I wish to also make note of another typing pattern that has made itself evident. A fair few of our FiNe members ( @aux , @pine , @laelrice , @elisaday ) and popular FiNe typologists bloggers such as Kailia & Molly all have identified as INFJ at some point.
Given how these two types share no functions in common, it's a bit more difficult to work out what is happening. But I will attempt to give my take on this trend, covering it through a few points:
1) Jness – What leads each FiNe to adopt the title of INFJ is different. But if the matter relies heavily on the J dimension (i.e. "am I P or J") then it is easy to see why a J-lead like the FiNe might identify as an MBTI J type. As mentioned in the Ne ll– thread, Ji-lead types are rigid and in some sense immovable. They seek closure, and these aspects are often framed as "J" aspects in the MBTI, but in the MBTI J translates over to CT's Conductor category. This is not the case for the FiNe type, as they will often be "J" but not a Conductor type by any means. However, confusion over Jness alone doesn't explain some cases where more elaborate insights into functions have been developed. For that we need to go into the definitions used for the functions themselves.
2) Fe & Agreeableness – The second facet to this dilemma lies in the MBTI's descriptions of Fe vs Fi. In general, Fe is seen as the one of the two that is considerate of the emotions of others, attuned to their sensitivities and respondent to them. Fi is seen as "self" emotions, and thus selfish or removed from others, which is not the right way to frame Fi and is misleading. Fe is also considered agreeable, swayed by the environment and adaptive to it. However, we have found that these are all features of light "F." Seelie Fi will be permeable, and thus receptive to the environment's energy, will be considerate of their impact on others and will wish to harmonize with others. These all exist independent of an ongoing, transactional relationship with the larger social economy, as defined in the Fe profile. In addition, NiFe are said to be good at this harmonizing but are soon overwhelmed by their Fe agreeableness because although they can do it, it's auxiliary to an introverted function. But this isn't actually how NiFe's modulate Fe, as real NiFe wield Fe in a yang/forward conductor fashion without much strain. Instead this is a description of Fi's trait of overwhelm. So the right (FiNe) behavior is being observed, but it's explained very differently.
3) Ji+Ne vs Ni – The third facet to this dilemma lies in the explanation given for Ni as a function. This also relates to how Ne and Ni are compared and contrasted.
Misunderstanding of Ne: First, Ne is not viewed as it should be within the MBTI. We've found Ne to be much more conceptual than tangible. For example, Ne on its own can lead to social introversion due to its daydreaming, lack of attention, and removal from the literal. It is not always a mad-scientist function, nor does it always manifest in explicit experimentation with duct tape and beakers. Being lost in thought and chasing idea-trails is another form of Ne engagement. Some descriptions might wrongly paint this type of thinking as Ni, because it's introverted+intuition. If a person is "intuiting" and it's not coming across as explicit brainstorming, the false assumption is that it is Ni. I think this accounts for maybe 1/3 of the confusion we see regarding Ni.
Aha Moments: The second third of the confusion comes from the way Ni is described; namely as a function of inner intuitions, hunches, and insights that germinate from within first and congeal suddenly into revelations. This is simply not the case for Ni and is not how it operates in reality. What we've seen instead is that Ni (proper) doesn't have epiphanies or "aha moments" and that is more of an Ne quality; these sudden bursts of synthesis.
This is why one of Ni's signals is "unimpressed" eyes. Ni doesn't experience surprise or "oh wow!" moments because the things Ni knows come from the unconscious and passive accumulation of data-points throughout decades of life– all of which mesh into a tapestry that gives them archival knowledge which they access whenever something simply needs to be looked up. Hence, for Ni the sensation of intuition is more like "of course" or "obviously" than it is surprise. And this is why Ni is fatalistic when at its extreme, because of its voluminous archive.
Ni is not viewed as Pi: The last 1/3 of this is the lack of depiction of Ni as a Pi process. This has many features to it but as they're listed here as: Global Narratives, Philosophy & Counsel, Steadiness & Temperance, Probabilities & Predictions. In addition to this, Pi is described as being composed of the qualities: Aim: Predictability, Method: Narrative, Duration: Long, Observation: Episodic, Data Source: Precedent, Verb: Anticipate, Desire: Stability, Fear: Instability.
These qualities are what make Ni a Conductor function, and tilted towards being conservative, wary, superstitious and pessimistic. From what I have seen, most definitions of Ni are not like this but instead Ni is treated (again) more like the net result of introversion+intuition, without framing it under Pi.
Now, some sources will say that Ni does track time, which is true, and seeks for longstanding rather than real-time intuitions. These are sorta true but the problem is that those isolated features can be achieved from Ji + Ne as well. Since Ji seeks a consistency of framework, and because of how Ne underneath Ji is not bubbly and scattered, then a JiNe's use of Ne will seem more honed to uncover longstanding (Ji) truths.
But this cultivation of longstanding views (via Ji) is not the same as the narrativism of Pi. And this is something hard to explain unless you've seen the narrativism of Pi in action. The narrativism of Pi is not just a wider opinion, it's an exhaustive elaboration of the interplay between layers and layers, in an information spideweb. Listening to an Ni-lead speak is hypnotic because they can soothe you to sleep as they flip the pages of their inner book, much like an Si-lead. This is different than having Ji+Ne form a longstanding truth framework, where intuitions are consolidated into 'conclusions' about the future.
Given all of this, the way the INFJ type is presented –even in terms of its information processing– is not very descriptive of the Beta Conductor we call NiFe. Instead the INFJ is portrayed as what I might call a hodgepodge of qualities. There's a little bit of Ji, auxiliary Ne, but also some Je, and maybe a little truth of Ni — and a great deal of general "NF" and "INF" temperament behavior.
The FiNe, being INF by temperament, may come to identify with "Fe" through seelie Fi, and "Ni" through auxiliary Ne when combined with Ji's longstanding-framework-construction. And some of what I mention in this thread may also apply to other types who mistake for INFJ.
I hope this can help clarify the matter for some of our existing and future members. The reason why some FiNe type as INFJ is not as straightforward as the typing of NeFi/NeTi as INTP/INFP, but perhaps this can open a discussion on what the full list of features involved might be. I especially look forward to hearing thoughts from our FiNe members.
This topic was modified 10 months, 3 weeks ago by Auburn.
March 5, 2019 at 9:02 am #9720
In short, I think real FiNe find the INFP description too whimsical, fantastical and poetic. They see themselves as much more serious, judgmental, but also affected by other's emotions in a way that INFP profiles don't describe. And their intuitive insights appear to them as being longstanding conclusions rather than real-time brainstorming.
And, in a kind of musical chairs escapade, real NeFi's find themselves fitting the INFP profile because they actually are whimsical and fantastical in the way it's described, while being introverted yet living in an open-ended/exploratory fashion the way "P" types are described.
This is a very crude summary, but I think it comes close enough to capturing the broad strokes of what we're seeing among Delta NF's…
This reply was modified 10 months, 2 weeks ago by Auburn.
March 5, 2019 at 11:06 am #9733
Shelley Lorraine
Type: NeFi
Development: lll-
F Attitude: Seelie
The second third of the confusion comes from the way Ni is described; namely as a function of inner intuitions, hunches, and insights that germinate from within first and congeal suddenly into revelations. This is simply not the case for Ni and is not how it operates in reality. What we've seen instead is that Ni (proper) doesn't have epiphanies or "aha moments" and that is more of an Ne quality; these sudden bursts of synthesis.
This is why one of Ni's signals is "unimpressed" eyes. Ni doesn't experience surprise or "oh wow!" moments because the things Ni knows come from the unconscious and passive accumulation of data-points throughout decades of life– all of which mesh into a tapestry that gives them archival knowledge which they access whenever something needs to be looked up. Hence, for Ni the sensation of intuition is more like "of course" or "obviously" than it is surprise. And this is why Ni is fatalistic when at its extreme, because of its voluminous archive.
Ooooh, far out! This is one of the big reasons I used to self type as an Ni lead long ago. Why does mbti describe Ni like that?
And, in a kind of musical chairs escapade, real NeFi's find themselves fitting the INFP profile because they actually are whimsical and fantastical in the way it's described, while being introverted yet living in an open-ended/exploratory fashion the way "P" type are described.
Ever the outlier, I'm an NeFi who typed as INxJ. My youngest sister is an FiNe who types as INFP, entirely embracing the whimsical description. ;p I blame my self-typing on my Te, not sure how to explain my sister's type.
March 5, 2019 at 2:32 pm #9738
Septimus Rosa Chalier
Type: FiNe
Development: l---
F Attitude: Unseelie
In the MBTI system, I wavered at some point between INFJ and INFP, but primarily between INTP and INTJ. Ultimately, I settled (unsatisfactorily) on INTP. I thought I could be a F-type mainly because the emotional detachment of the INTP bothered me, and I considered myself potentially being a J-type because P-types' lack of rigidity didn't feel completely right. The slight divergence from the pattern you're noticing (my orientation towards T-types) is probably due to the "unseelie" factor (that still needs to be properly defined btw), as you wrote it somewhere else, on the old forum (if i remember correctly).
Elisa Day
Type: FiSe
Development: ll--
1) Jness – Nah, it wasn't this for me. Back about 15 years ago when I only knew about dichotomies I had always typed myself as a P type. After learning about Socionics I understood functions and Ni as a Pi type. They are described as more go-with-the-flow while the Ji types are more rigid. Since I've always been viewed and described as an easy going, go-with-the-flow type of person who suppresses her own judgments I switched over to Pi lead. This was supported when studying Jung and later on finding this system as well. In other words: I'm not dumb 😛
2) Fe & Agreeableness – I agree that many Fe descriptions in MBTI sound like Big 5 agreeableness, but I wasn't going by those descriptions. My Big 5 agreeableness scores actually tend to be quite low and I've never viewed Fe as caring about others and Fi as selfish.
Jung's definitions hold the most weight for me. @Auburn told me that Jung just didn't understand Fe or Fi very well and I didn't find that argument to be very convincing. Jung's Fe isn't directive at all. Jung's Fe types are easily swayed by the ethical opinions of others and can come across as having multiple personalities due to their ever-changing ethical conclusions. Fi is expressionless and cold.
Personally I'm not all that great at harmonizing. I'm pretty combative and argumentative, but my opinions on ethical matters change drastically and quite often.
3) Ji+Ne vs Ni – I agree with your first point as I know many Ne dominants who think they are Ni dominants including my sister.
On the second point: Most people I know in the typology community associate aha moments with Ne. It's funny when this happens, too, and you can see the aha happening with them in the moment. This isn't something I tend to experience personally. Typically when someone is sharing their big, exciting A-Ha realization with me I tend to finish their sentence in a "yeah I know" type of way that always takes the wind out of their sails.
"Ni knows come from the unconscious and passive accumulation of data-points throughout decades of life– all of which mesh into a tapestry that gives them archival knowledge which they access whenever something simply needs to be looked up."
Yes, it's called web-thinking and it's how I've always described my mental process. It is why I never have to take notes on anything.
Ni is not viewed as Pi: Pretty much every other source I've come across acknowledges Ni as Pi, so I'm not sure which sources you are referring to. Other than that I can see the first point being valid for some people. Still I have to wonder because when I worked for customer service at call centers thousands of customers told me that my speaking was hypnotic and I was putting them to sleep. My first attempt at my typing video was 10 minutes of rambling just to answer the first question about A.I. by going into an exhaustive narrative involving the history of human innovations and psychological discovery to outline my conclusion that it has all been leading up to my prediction of the final outcome that A.I. represents hope for humanity. I ended up sending a different video instead with just a summary of that rambling, but the summary ended up coming out as rambling as well. I was self-conscious about forgetting a lot of names and dates, but Beebe calls that a symptom of "Demon Si" in Ni dominants.
There's a part in your Ni description that states Ni can emphasize hope. It's also a big part of Socionics' Ni+ description which is the Ni of the NiF+. Hope is one of my most overused vocabulary words.
"These qualities are what make Ni a Conductor function, and tilted towards being conservative, wary, superstitious and pessimistic."
From what I have read most descriptions of Ni actually are like that. It's especially true of Ni- in Socionics which is the Ni of the NiT-.
Now, putting all other systems aside and just looking at Cognitive Types as its own isolated system with its own set of unique types I'm STILL not seeing FiNe in me.
Psychologically I'm having trouble seeing how you came to the conclusion of my Fi in my videos when I make jokes and hyperbole when speaking about my relationships, but then turn around and speak very seriously about my choices leading to a total metamorphosis.
Vultology-wise I'm really having trouble seeing the Fi. I see zygomatic tension and flat cheeks. My smile looks nothing like Marilyn Monroe's or Princess Diana's. It looks just like Kate Beckinsale's and Cate Blanchett's. My upper lip has a pronounced Cupid's bow naturally when resting that makes it look like it is pulled more upwards than straight across, but that is not due to any muscular tension at the nose.
My movements still look to me to be more similar to NiFe III- than the FiNe II- -. @Auburn even said he could see how my movements were similar to theirs, but he could see some differences that he just want able to explain. Personality-wise I see far more similarities between myself and the NiFe types as well. The FiNe types go on and on about personal growth and existentialism and I almost never talk about those subjects. Even with the art I do I make it a point to depersonalize them from myself and focus on universal topics of interest.
So while at first I was excited about being typed FiNe and being compared to the many I admire and really giving it serious consideration, it's still just not making any sense to me. It's not because I haven't done my research and have a false understanding of the functions. There's still a very good chance, in my opinion, that I am actually mistyped in this system. I'm willing to admit I'm wrong if I can receive better explanations than "Jung doesn't understand the functions" and "I can't explain the differences." It's also a challenge that I'm going through such lengths to keep my identity protected on this forum, I know, so I'm not expecting much more explanation on my vultology anytime soon.
Well this is utterly baffling.
Also, I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to imply dumbness on the part of anyone, but hoping to outline common misconceptions that might be the cause. But from what you're saying, these don't really apply to your situation.
I'm open to the possibility that there is a misread but it would have to be a really really weird misread, since NiFe to FiNe is not a small leap. I'm not really sure how much more I could say without more information/data. But I understand it takes effort to make new videos, and trust to share them, so all I can say is I'll do what I can to expand the reservoir of NiFe female samples.
You certainly don't look like the male NiFe's but that's to be expected. We only have one NiFe lll- female (Carolyn) and her vultology itself is on the very outskirts of NiFe, due to J-heaviness.
I'm willing to admit I'm wrong if I can receive better explanations than "Jung doesn't understand the functions" and "I can't explain the differences."
Yea, I know. I like to admit when I don't know — although I realize that's not a persuasive argument. It's not really meant to be. I think the data should speak for itself, but there's a gap in data present. But once more female NiFe samples accumulate, I may have a more complete understanding to offer.
Thank you for being willing to discuss the matter openly.
@faeruss @supahprotist @elisaday – now I have three members vying for the NiFe role. It's a hotly contended type. But you can't all be right!
@gust help! be my referee!
Type: SeFi
@elisaday – but at some point you said you felt you could be a Ti lead. I hope I got that right. I can't remember the thread where you said it.
Now, to be clear, I did not see her videos but since :
– NiFe is far from FiNe but TiNe is pretty close;
– she said she identifies with Ti description;
– she says people told her her voice is soothing and calming;
– her video was about AI development
I see (completely as a leap based on almost 0 facts) she might be TiNe. Why NiFe and not TiNe? Why not TiNe I–I ?
Again, please take this as an uninformed idea based on just 2 or 3 posts I saw from her and interactions with people here. It's an Pe what if thought.
This reply was modified 10 months, 2 weeks ago by Bera.
Faeruss
Type: FeNi
Development: llll
F Attitude: Directive
@elisaday
If I recall correctly you were typed originally as a FiSe, so I suggest considering TiSe as a real possibility. The degree of similarity between the introverted and extroverted types of the same quadra has been woefully underestimated, especially now with the advent of the development levels. Then at least you would have all the right functions you think you have from your understanding of them and your own introspection. If I am a TiSe as well, I will tell you that is possible for us to look very similar in thought and mannerism to NiFes, and vice-versa.
Feel free to reply to me in PM if you are uncomfortable sharing personal details, but I would be happy to help you out.
Faex
Is this Ni? I don't take notes either (I have ADHD) but if I'm interested, believe me: I will remember everything. If I'm not interested, no amount of note taking will help. I sat through all my grad classes without taking notes. I read either beforehand (when required) or during assignments and prep for exams. I just used the text books then.
I don't take notes– I'm like a hawk tracking prey when attentive and can't break it to jot things down, or I draw squiggles, cartoons, and other meaningless things when I can't follow and the lecture is too long. I have never had trouble recalling or understanding what I paid attention to. Best strategy is to fill my days with 'lectures' on things I really do want to know. Anyway, I digress!
Just wanted to say I'm not sure this is an Ni thing.
This is why I've wondered about my own Si too, in fact: I have plenty Si things I do quite easily and naturally and positively (I don't have a negative/repressed relationship with Si like I have with Te) but no Senex energy at all and wish we could separate cognition from energetics.
I really do think you can have very good, positive, efficient use of a cognitive function that you have not integrated into your energetics, so that in that case, it's more like an appendage or tool than "who I am". It'll then confuse you when reading type descriptions. And I think good 'cognitive' access to Si in a strong Ne type who is a voracious reader or accumulator of information can feel like 'web thinking'. But you will not have the overall Senex energy or talents like caution or calm if it's not been integrated into your energy as a full expression/manifestation/channel of the energy. Just my usual Ne hypotheses.
This reply was modified 10 months, 2 weeks ago by Faex.
@faeruss my original type was FiNe. I have Se taughtness around the eye area and Se arched eyebrows. However, Auburn said he saw Ne brushstroke toggling (just subtle and barely) and foggy, intuitive eyes that don't appear to be looking at anything. I explained that I have chronic dry eye (to explain the excessive blinking), so Auburn dismissed all of the intuitive signals because of that. However, after awhile I decided aux Ne is definitely far more accurate than having aux Se. I'm certainly no hunter.
@bera Yes, I relate far more to the Ti description than the Fi description. Not necessarily Ti lead. I think that description was meant for all Ti users.
I ralate to Ni over Ne, Fe over Fi (Fe is the description in this system I relate to most), Ti over Te (can't relate to Te at all), and Se over Si.
"Now I have three members vying for the NiFe role…but you can't all be right."
hmm yeah another poor argument that doesn't make much sense.
March 6, 2019 at 12:58 pm #9783
Lol. I'm sure this was just a joke.
I grew up with a NiFe father and FeNi best friend and I have to say, no matter what you say about yourself, you behave absolutely nothing like this type.
Without seeing a video, I would bet money that your type is not NiFe. It is blatantly obvious from where I stand.
First of all, NiFe doesnt spend long posts saying "I relate to this but not that." Pi is a more detached, world view function. Jung talks about this detachment too, in his writing about Ni. It is emphasized that the perspective of Ni is more alien and distant, panoramic view from afar. Not "I relate" and "I don't relate."
I understand the need to bring this up in order to figure out your type, but for instance, @faeruss is Ni and Fe conscious, and may end up being NiFe. If not, at the very least he has these functions conscious. When talking to him, he goes about this in a much more detached, analytical way, collecting info from a distant perspective and reiterating it from way out there. Your posts, by contrast, are more personal, visceral. I can practically taste your frustration, sarcasm and annoyance.
This isnt a criticism. I love tasting emotion. I am highly personal and visceral and self referencing myself.
But your personal interaction style is just too… subjectively based.
Always going back to your personal relation with things as a subject. This is part of why Socionics calls Fi "relations."
Confusion over FiNe and FiSe is one thing, but someone like you ending up as Ni… I personally wil be mindblown if this happens. It simply doesnt fit the pattern of what Jung, Socionics, and CT describes for Ni at all.
I mean where do you see distant panoramic world view in yourself? Or aphoristic speech? Can you pick out one example from your past fifteen posts? Or any on this forum?
Also where is Fe emotional shepharding? Where's the warm persuasive quality of Fe? Compare the tone of your posts to Faeruss. You have yet to say to someone "let me help you figure that out." This is the mentoring stance of NiFe, regardless of their prior expertise around the subject at hand. They take a counseling approach.
This reply was modified 10 months, 2 weeks ago by Animal.
Scientiam
Type: TiSe
@elisaday,
This youtube video by Carolyn who is Ni dominant showed me that my Ni wasn't my primary function in my psyche and that Vultology did have some level of accuracy in its readings. In the video, Carolyn describes her first-hand experience with Ni and tries to give "practical" examples of how it works for her in her psyche. It might help you determine whether you are NiFe too since she is typed by CT as one and she identifies as an INFJ.
I found it hard to post the video, it didn't work, so this is the link to it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2Yi5hIAPLA&t=1111s
This reply was modified 10 months, 2 weeks ago by Scientiam.
@scientam Thank you for the input. I'm actually quite familiar with her videos and many of the things she experiences have been how it is for me as well. She talks about feeling like she doesn't have a body: that she's just a floating ball of energy. That's how I've described it to people as well.
It's her vultology that I think matches mine the most out of all of the other exemplars. When I play the videos side by side it seems almost exactly the same to me. The only differences I would comment on may have something to do with her being directive as I think I would be more adaptive. Auburn said the similarities were compelling, but he saw a difference and couldn't explain what they were.
@animal Thanks for your input as well. I appreciate you actually giving reasoning behind your perceptions. I have a LOT to say in response since you asked me to gather evidence, and I can certainly do that. It will have to wait until later tonight though.
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