Answers.Body: <p>Pete has identified the core issue here and given your comment response, I'll try to expand.</p>
  
  <p>You want to add people to a group as a result of them completing a profile.  There are two approaches with important differences.  You can use either one, but you're trying to use both which leads to confusion!</p>
  
  <p>Method 1) Use a normal group (not smart), and use the profile setting to add contacts to that group when the profile is submitted.</p>
  
  <p>Method 2) Use a smart group for eg Volunteer=Yes, don't use the profile setting.</p>
  
  <p>Which method you want depends on what meaning you give to the group. What should happen if you later change a contact's info so that Volunteer=No ?</p>
  
  <ul>
  <li><p>If you want them to stay in the group ("contacts who completed this profile") use a normal group (method 1)</p></li>
  <li><p>if you want them to be removed from the group ("contacts with Volunteer=Yes") use a smart group (method 2)</p></li>
  </ul>
  
  <p>While it is possible to manually add people to a smart group that's usually a bad idea (shooting yourself in the foot is possible but usually bad!).  Keep smart groups defined only by criteria.  Use normal static groups when you want to manually add/remove.  [As often, there can be exceptions to the rule when you know why you're breaking the rules!]</p>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2018-02-09T15:50:32.603Z
Answers.Text: Got it!  Thank you, my cognitive dissonance was coming from not understanding that there is a difference between Smart groups and Groups.  In fact I had at some point formed the (unsubstantiated) opinion that Smart Groups had subsumed normal groups, probably at least in part because in many places where you can use a group it seems you can use either.  Which is great, just potentially confusing for some poor souls :P
Answers.UserDisplayName: Whilom Chime
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2018-02-09T19:40:07.220Z
Answers.Text: Our terminology doesn't help!  "There are two types of groups: groups and smart groups"  "Group" sometimes means either, sometimes means the non-smart type.  Also see https://docs.civicrm.org/user/en/latest/organising-your-data/groups-and-tags/#groups
Answers.UserDisplayName: Aidan
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Answers.CreationDate: 2018-02-09T11:01:45.697Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2018-02-09T11:01:45.697Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: Aidan
Answers.Body: <p>Hard to know quite how to unpick what you have posted but the bit that stopped my eyeballs in mid-skim was this</p>
  
  <blockquote>
    <p>setting the "add to smart group" field of, say, the Volunteer profile to "Volunteers"</p>
  </blockquote>
  
  <p>Not sure if you have the concept but a Smart Group IS the results of the Search used to find the people who should be in it, ie it is a set of criteria, not a set of contacts.</p>
  
  <p>By adding contacts to a Smart Group via a Profile means they ARE in the Group, but they are not SMART - ie you are not using the 'criteria' to determine if they are in the Group or not, you are force adding them (which is allowed for Smart Groups but you have to understand the distinction)</p>
  
  <p>Not sure if that helps</p>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2018-02-09T02:42:08.907Z
Answers.Text: Thanks for taking time! :P  I'm not sure I do understand the distinction.  I understand the mechanism; I see it work how you describe; if I set up a SG with criteria, then manually add contacts that match, then update the SG, those new contacts are part of the SG.  Similarly I see contacts added via a profile in the SG associated with it.  One way of helping me to understand the distinction would be to answer the question: is it ever useful to use a single SG in both ways, as a query *and* via the force add mechanism Profiles provide?  Or an example of how multiple SGs are used might help too.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Whilom Chime
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2018-02-09T20:26:41.743Z
Answers.Text: Those contacts you add directly to the SG are 'in' it but not because they meet the criteria. Eg if you have a criteria of 'lives in NY' as the basis for your SG. Then you directly add someone to the SG who lives in NY, then yes they will be in the SG, but if you update their data to say they live in Boston they will remain in the SG because you have addd them directly. Whereas if you just let the system add them to the SG based on the City, then when their data is updated to Boston they will automatically be removed from the NY SG and show up in the Boston SG. Hope that helps.
Answers.UserDisplayName: petednz - fuzion
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Answers.LastActivityDate: 2018-02-10T21:33:27.563Z
Answers.LastEditDate: 2018-02-10T21:33:27.563Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: petednz - fuzion
Body: <p>Fist off, I think CiviCRM is awesome!  As an erstwhile systems software programmer from the nineties who saw the birth of the World Wide Web while working for major corporations and governments it is truly heartwarming to see how far the OpenSource movement has come!</p>
  
  <p>I'm working to set up CiviCRM for a new food Co-op, and I admit that despite reading the User Guide pretty thoroughly I'm struggling to understand how Profiles and Smart Groups are supposed to work together.  I've set up profiles for Donors, Volunteers, Newsletter recipients, Members, and Founders (members who also sign up for contributing founders' credit to help open the co-op.)</p>
  
  <p>I'm probably missing something glaringly obvious (note I said <em>systems</em> software programmer, user interfaces have a tendency to escape my understanding,) but I guess I'll just describe what I'm trying to do and how, and hopefully some kind soul will speak up and say "Whoa, whoa you're way overthinking this, this is how it's done..."</p>
  
  <p>I am trying to set up smart groups so that our community outreach people can email the various groups as appropriate.  On the surface it sounds like I need a Founders SG, a Members SG which is a parent of Founders, a Volunteers SG, and a Newsletter SG which is a parent of Volunteers and Members.  That way, an email to the Newsletter group will go to everyone, but an email to the Volunteers SG will only go to volunteers.</p>
  
  <p>However, I've already learnt the hard way that SGs, unless they are defined via clear search criteria, aren't as "authoritative" as they could be.  Twice now I've discovered that all my contacts have somehow ended up being members of a SG.  This may have something to do with the parental inheritance thing, however if I define a SG with a clear rule, it does seem to stick in a meaningful way.  Of course, if I do that, then setting the "add to smart group" field of, say, the Volunteer profile to "Volunteers" will only remain valid until the Volunteer smart group (which selects based on a relinfo::Volunteer = Yes criteria) updates itself, which is to say, not very long.</p>
  
  <p>Also, I can't seem to figure out how to associate profiles with automatically set fields.  It feels awkward to create a volunteer signup profile with a "check this box to signup to volunteer" field as opposed to just having a hidden field with the value automatically set.</p>
  
  <p>So my current thinking is, that I need also to also create SG's for Volunteer Signup, Founders Signup, Newsletter Signup, and have the associated profiles add new contacts to those groups.  Then I can periodically run a cron job to set the appropriate relinfo:: fields for contacts in the signup groups (thence they will be members of the non-signup groups) and remove them from the signup groups.  This already is starting to seem a bit complex, thus my request for input :)</p>
  
  <p>However, because the update job will likely only run once a day, there's a period where someone can have signed up as a volunteer, for instance, and yet not be in the Volunteer SG.  Given the slight oddness around group parentage stuff, I'm concerned just making Volunteer the parent of Volunteer Signup will muddy the waters, and that it would be clearer to create Volunteer Email SG, parent of both Volunteers SG and Volunteer Signup SG, etc. for the Newsletter and Founders' Credit SG's  Members seemingly isn't as much of a concern because if people submit that profile they are automatically marked as Members, and when people sign up as Founders they also are completing the Members Profile and will thus satisfy that criterion.  However, Founders it is the resulting Founders' Credit <em>contribution</em> that they would be the basis for adding them to the Founders SG. </p>
  
  <p>So, is this the way it's done, or am I missing something?  From my perspective this would be many times easier if I could just silently set fields as part of profiles.</p>
  
  <p>Thanks for your attention :)</p>
  
Tags: <profile><smartgroups>
Title: Trouble understanding how Profiles and Smart Groups are supposed to work together
ThreadText: # Trouble understanding how Profiles and Smart Groups are supposed to work together
  
  (Asked by: username_0 on 2018-02-08)
  
  Fist off, I think CiviCRM is awesome! As an erstwhile systems software programmer from the nineties who saw the birth of the World Wide Web while working for major corporations and governments it is truly heartwarming to see how far the OpenSource movement has come!
  
  I'm working to set up CiviCRM for a new food Co-op, and I admit that despite reading the User Guide pretty thoroughly I'm struggling to understand how Profiles and Smart Groups are supposed to work together. I've set up profiles for Donors, Volunteers, Newsletter recipients, Members, and Founders (members who also sign up for contributing founders' credit to help open the co-op.)
  
  I'm probably missing something glaringly obvious (note I said *systems* software programmer, user interfaces have a tendency to escape my understanding,) but I guess I'll just describe what I'm trying to do and how, and hopefully some kind soul will speak up and say "Whoa, whoa you're way overthinking this, this is how it's done..."
  
  I am trying to set up smart groups so that our community outreach people can email the various groups as appropriate. On the surface it sounds like I need a Founders SG, a Members SG which is a parent of Founders, a Volunteers SG, and a Newsletter SG which is a parent of Volunteers and Members. That way, an email to the Newsletter group will go to everyone, but an email to the Volunteers SG will only go to volunteers.
  
  However, I've already learnt the hard way that SGs, unless they are defined via clear search criteria, aren't as "authoritative" as they could be. Twice now I've discovered that all my contacts have somehow ended up being members of a SG. This may have something to do with the parental inheritance thing, however if I define a SG with a clear rule, it does seem to stick in a meaningful way. Of course, if I do that, then setting the "add to smart group" field of, say, the Volunteer profile to "Volunteers" will only remain valid until the Volunteer smart group (which selects based on a relinfo::Volunteer = Yes criteria) updates itself, which is to say, not very long.
  
  Also, I can't seem to figure out how to associate profiles with automatically set fields. It feels awkward to create a volunteer signup profile with a "check this box to signup to volunteer" field as opposed to just having a hidden field with the value automatically set.
  
  So my current thinking is, that I need also to also create SG's for Volunteer Signup, Founders Signup, Newsletter Signup, and have the associated profiles add new contacts to those groups. Then I can periodically run a cron job to set the appropriate relinfo:: fields for contacts in the signup groups (thence they will be members of the non-signup groups) and remove them from the signup groups. This already is starting to seem a bit complex, thus my request for input :)
  
  However, because the update job will likely only run once a day, there's a period where someone can have signed up as a volunteer, for instance, and yet not be in the Volunteer SG. Given the slight oddness around group parentage stuff, I'm concerned just making Volunteer the parent of Volunteer Signup will muddy the waters, and that it would be clearer to create Volunteer Email SG, parent of both Volunteers SG and Volunteer Signup SG, etc. for the Newsletter and Founders' Credit SG's Members seemingly isn't as much of a concern because if people submit that profile they are automatically marked as Members, and when people sign up as Founders they also are completing the Members Profile and will thus satisfy that criterion. However, Founders it is the resulting Founders' Credit *contribution* that they would be the basis for adding them to the Founders SG.
  
  So, is this the way it's done, or am I missing something? From my perspective this would be many times easier if I could just silently set fields as part of profiles.
  
  Thanks for your attention :)
  
  **Tags:** profile, smartgroups
  
  
  ---
  
  ## 2 answers
  
  ### Answer by username_1 on 2018-02-09. Score: 2 | Accepted answer
  
  Pete has identified the core issue here and given your comment response, I'll try to expand.
  
  You want to add people to a group as a result of them completing a profile. There are two approaches with important differences. You can use either one, but you're trying to use both which leads to confusion!
  
  Method 1) Use a normal group (not smart), and use the profile setting to add contacts to that group when the profile is submitted.
  
  Method 2) Use a smart group for eg Volunteer=Yes, don't use the profile setting.
  
  Which method you want depends on what meaning you give to the group. What should happen if you later change a contact's info so that Volunteer=No ?
  
  * If you want them to stay in the group ("contacts who completed this profile") use a normal group (method 1)
  * if you want them to be removed from the group ("contacts with Volunteer=Yes") use a smart group (method 2)
  
  While it is possible to manually add people to a smart group that's usually a bad idea (shooting yourself in the foot is possible but usually bad!). Keep smart groups defined only by criteria. Use normal static groups when you want to manually add/remove. [As often, there can be exceptions to the rule when you know why you're breaking the rules!]
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_0**: Got it!  Thank you, my cognitive dissonance was coming from not understanding that there is a difference between Smart groups and Groups.  In fact I had at some point formed the (unsubstantiated) opinion that Smart Groups had subsumed normal groups, probably at least in part because in many places where you can use a group it seems you can use either.  Which is great, just potentially confusing for some poor souls :P  
  > **username_1**: Our terminology doesn't help!  "There are two types of groups: groups and smart groups"  "Group" sometimes means either, sometimes means the non-smart type.  Also see https://docs.civicrm.org/user/en/latest/organising-your-data/groups-and-tags/#groups  
  
  ---
  
  ### Answer by username_2 on 2018-02-09. Score: 2
  
  Hard to know quite how to unpick what you have posted but the bit that stopped my eyeballs in mid-skim was this
  
  > setting the "add to smart group" field of, say, the Volunteer profile to "Volunteers"
  
  Not sure if you have the concept but a Smart Group IS the results of the Search used to find the people who should be in it, ie it is a set of criteria, not a set of contacts.
  
  By adding contacts to a Smart Group via a Profile means they ARE in the Group, but they are not SMART - ie you are not using the 'criteria' to determine if they are in the Group or not, you are force adding them (which is allowed for Smart Groups but you have to understand the distinction)
  
  Not sure if that helps
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_0**: Thanks for taking time! :P  I'm not sure I do understand the distinction.  I understand the mechanism; I see it work how you describe; if I set up a SG with criteria, then manually add contacts that match, then update the SG, those new contacts are part of the SG.  Similarly I see contacts added via a profile in the SG associated with it.  One way of helping me to understand the distinction would be to answer the question: is it ever useful to use a single SG in both ways, as a query *and* via the force add mechanism Profiles provide?  Or an example of how multiple SGs are used might help too.  
  > **username_2**: Those contacts you add directly to the SG are 'in' it but not because they meet the criteria. Eg if you have a criteria of 'lives in NY' as the basis for your SG. Then you directly add someone to the SG who lives in NY, then yes they will be in the SG, but if you update their data to say they live in Boston they will remain in the SG because you have addd them directly. Whereas if you just let the system add them to the SG based on the City, then when their data is updated to Boston they will automatically be removed from the NY SG and show up in the Boston SG. Hope that helps.  
  
  ---
  
  