<p>Consider the following answers for consensus (chain validation) and node-policy (mempool acceptance, tx propagation). </p>

<p>Consensus:</p>

<ul>
<li>(1) Zero Satoshis.</li>
<li>(2) No.</li>
</ul>

<p>Node policy:</p>

<ul>
<li>(1) See 2 </li>
<li>(2) Nodes generally have a minimum-fee policy for mempool
acceptance. Therefore, the total output amounts of a transaction
cannot be zero, though individual output amounts can. See OPRETURN
outputs for example.</li>
</ul>

<p>Payments in lightning are denominated in mSat's, though the balance is rounded to Sat's can be delivered during channel closing. </p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-01-16T14:09:22.517Z
Thank you, but really I did not get my answer. In LN doc, it's mentioned _"bitcoin enforces a minimum output size, many hundreds of times higher than 1 Satoshi"_ that means minimum output size in bitcoin is very higher than LN (while this value in LN is 1 Satoshi, in Bitcoin is hundreds times higher). You may mean total amount of all outputs of a tx cannot be zero; And if so, what is value of this non-zero limitation?
Questioner
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-01-16T14:11:02.233Z
In second question, in LN doc, it's mentioned _"fixed per-transaction fee makes micropayments impractical."_ You may mean this **fixed** fee is determined by miners; however, in that case the fees cannot be a **fixed** value. Can you explain in more detail? Thank you
Questioner
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-01-16T15:33:37.620Z
@sas I think the paper is confusing, there is a minimum *total output* which depends on the node-policy's minimum fee rate (for DoS prevention), but for individual outputs you can definitely do a zero output. Lightning in fact allows for millisatoshi transactions, see https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/blob/master/lnwire/msat.go#L13-L18
JBaczuk
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-01-16T15:35:18.790Z
@JBaczuk Agree. There are some factual errors in the paper, without having read it in its entirety.
James C.
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-01-16T15:39:12.520Z
@JBaczuk , I think so too, however, this article is published in official Lightning Network website: https://lightning.network/docs/ (Lightning Network Summary)
Questioner
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-01-16T16:10:58.693Z
@sas the minimum output value is zero, but the point is you wouldn't send 1 satoshi on Bitcoin because the fee would be much higher than the payment itself. The fees are dependent on the node policy and the current market fee rate (satoshis/kb) and generally increase with transaction volume as users compete for block placement.
JBaczuk
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-01-16T13:51:52.727Z
2019-01-16T13:51:52.727Z
James C.
<p>The article <a href="https://lightning.network/lightning-network-summary.pdf" rel="nofollow noreferrer">"The Bitcoin Lightning Network Summary"</a> by lightning.network mentions:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>"Lightning enables one to send funds down to 0.00000001 bitcoin
  without custodial risk. The bitcoin blockchain currently <strong>enforces a
  minimum output size many hundreds of times higher(1)</strong>, and a <strong>fixed
  per-transaction fee(2)</strong> which makes micropayments impractical. Lightning
  allows minimal payments denominated in bitcoin, using actual bitcoin
  transactions."</p>
</blockquote>

<p><strong>(1)</strong> Is there in (standard) Bitcoin a <strong>limitation for minimum amount of payment (output size)</strong>?</p>

<p><strong>(2)</strong> Is there a <strong>fixed per-transaction fee</strong> for payments in Bitcoin? And if yes, how much is this fee amount?</p>

<transaction-fees><output><dust><transaction-propagation>
Are there minimums for output values and transaction fees in Bitcoin?
Questioner
# Are there minimums for output values and transaction fees in Bitcoin?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2019-01-16)

The article ["The Bitcoin Lightning Network Summary"](https://lightning.network/lightning-network-summary.pdf) by lightning.network mentions:

> "Lightning enables one to send funds down to 0.00000001 bitcoin
> without custodial risk. The bitcoin blockchain currently **enforces a
> minimum output size many hundreds of times higher(1)**, and a **fixed
> per-transaction fee(2)** which makes micropayments impractical. Lightning
> allows minimal payments denominated in bitcoin, using actual bitcoin
> transactions."

**(1)** Is there in (standard) Bitcoin a **limitation for minimum amount of payment (output size)**?

**(2)** Is there a **fixed per-transaction fee** for payments in Bitcoin? And if yes, how much is this fee amount?

**Tags:** transaction-fees, output, dust, transaction-propagation


---

## 1 answers

### Answer by username_1 on 2019-01-16. Score: 0

Consider the following answers for consensus (chain validation) and node-policy (mempool acceptance, tx propagation).

Consensus:

* (1) Zero Satoshis.
* (2) No.

Node policy:

* (1) See 2
* (2) Nodes generally have a minimum-fee policy for mempool
  acceptance. Therefore, the total output amounts of a transaction
  cannot be zero, though individual output amounts can. See OPRETURN
  outputs for example.

Payments in lightning are denominated in mSat's, though the balance is rounded to Sat's can be delivered during channel closing.

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Thank you, but really I did not get my answer. In LN doc, it's mentioned _"bitcoin enforces a minimum output size, many hundreds of times higher than 1 Satoshi"_ that means minimum output size in bitcoin is very higher than LN (while this value in LN is 1 Satoshi, in Bitcoin is hundreds times higher). You may mean total amount of all outputs of a tx cannot be zero; And if so, what is value of this non-zero limitation?  
> **username_0**: In second question, in LN doc, it's mentioned _"fixed per-transaction fee makes micropayments impractical."_ You may mean this **fixed** fee is determined by miners; however, in that case the fees cannot be a **fixed** value. Can you explain in more detail? Thank you  
> **username_2**: @sas I think the paper is confusing, there is a minimum *total output* which depends on the node-policy's minimum fee rate (for DoS prevention), but for individual outputs you can definitely do a zero output. Lightning in fact allows for millisatoshi transactions, see https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/blob/master/lnwire/msat.go#L13-L18  
> **username_1**: @username_2 Agree. There are some factual errors in the paper, without having read it in its entirety.  
> **username_0**: @username_2 , I think so too, however, this article is published in official Lightning Network website: https://lightning.network/docs/ (Lightning Network Summary)  
> **username_2**: @sas the minimum output value is zero, but the point is you wouldn't send 1 satoshi on Bitcoin because the fee would be much higher than the payment itself. The fees are dependent on the node policy and the current market fee rate (satoshis/kb) and generally increase with transaction volume as users compete for block placement.  

---

