<ol>
<li><p>The answer is 12! = 479,001,600 possible mnemonics (less if there are repeated words). Out of these only ~29,937,600 (1 in 16) produce a valid seed. This is definitely brute forceable.</p>
</li>
<li><p>No, if you want to do this use a longer mnemonic (and make sure you permute them in a truly random way).</p>
</li>
</ol>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2018-10-31T12:32:59.233Z
thank for answer. Im whant to use Electrum. What are my options for enhancing seed phrase backup?
@Mike-D
entarex11
CC BY-SA 4.0
2018-10-31T12:43:46.057Z
create a new wallet with 24 words mnemonic (not with electrum, they don't support bip39) and then import it to electrum and move your funds there.
Mike D
CC BY-SA 4.0
2018-10-31T12:51:54.527Z
What should I to import to electrum ? I generated 24 seed from https://iancoleman.io/bip39/ , but electrum don't whant to import it.
entarex11
CC BY-SA 4.0
2018-10-31T13:44:03.667Z
make sure you tick BIP39 in the options dialog
Mike D
CC BY-SA 4.0
2018-10-31T18:44:26.700Z
"every passphrase generates a valid seed" https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0039.mediawiki#from-mnemonic-to-seed
JBaczuk
CC BY-SA 4.0
2018-10-31T19:38:59.860Z
@JBaczuk that refers to adding an extra word (eg 13th or 25th word) to the mnemonic as a ‘passphrase’. Any such passphrase will generate a valid wallet. The mnemonic itself includes a checksum, so not all permutations of a certain mnemonics’s words will be valid seeds (as the checksum will be invalid).
chytrik
CC BY-SA 4.0
2018-10-31T11:58:00.813Z
2022-08-16T10:57:22.900Z
2022-08-16T10:57:22.900Z
Mike D
<p><code>Permutation(12,12) = 12! = 479,001,600</code></p>

<p>Vanitygen on GTX 1080 can derive 50 million addresses in one second. <code>479/50 = ~9.5</code> thus it'll take 9.5 seconds to derive all addresses and find your private key. As this was a master password instead of a private key, it will take a little longer. Let's say at most 2 minutes.</p>

<p>Not effective at all, except that it might take up to week day for the thief to think of rearranging the words.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2018-10-31T12:41:00.970Z
thank for answer. Im whant to use Electrum. What are my options for enhancing seed phrase backup? 
@MCCCS
entarex11
CC BY-SA 4.0
2018-10-31T11:57:45.883Z
2018-10-31T11:57:45.883Z
MCCCS
<p>Suppose that someone seized my seed with a phrase of 12 words. I deliberately changed the order of words in a phrase in such a way that the only way to get a real phrase is to go through all the possible combinacies of the current 12 words.</p>

<p>1) How many combinations will it be necessary to go through an attacker in order to find a real seed? How long can it take?</p>

<p>2) Do you find such precaution really effective?</p>

<seed>
bruteforce 12 words seed
entarex11
# bruteforce 12 words seed

(Asked by: username_0 on 2018-10-31)

Suppose that someone seized my seed with a phrase of 12 words. I deliberately changed the order of words in a phrase in such a way that the only way to get a real phrase is to go through all the possible combinacies of the current 12 words.

1) How many combinations will it be necessary to go through an attacker in order to find a real seed? How long can it take?

2) Do you find such precaution really effective?

**Tags:** seed


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## 2 answers

### Answer by username_1 on 2018-10-31. Score: 5

1. The answer is 12! = 479,001,600 possible mnemonics (less if there are repeated words). Out of these only ~29,937,600 (1 in 16) produce a valid seed. This is definitely brute forceable.
2. No, if you want to do this use a longer mnemonic (and make sure you permute them in a truly random way).

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: thank for answer. Im whant to use Electrum. What are my options for enhancing seed phrase backup? @Mike-D  
> **username_1**: create a new wallet with 24 words mnemonic (not with electrum, they don't support bip39) and then import it to electrum and move your funds there.  
> **username_0**: What should I to import to electrum ? I generated 24 seed from https://iancoleman.io/bip39/ , but electrum don't whant to import it.  
> **username_1**: make sure you tick BIP39 in the options dialog  
> **username_2**: "every passphrase generates a valid seed" https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0039.mediawiki#from-mnemonic-to-seed  
> **username_3**: @username_2 that refers to adding an extra word (eg 13th or 25th word) to the mnemonic as a ‘passphrase’. Any such passphrase will generate a valid wallet. The mnemonic itself includes a checksum, so not all permutations of a certain mnemonics’s words will be valid seeds (as the checksum will be invalid).  

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### Answer by username_4 on 2018-10-31. Score: 1

`Permutation(12,12) = 12! = 479,001,600`

Vanitygen on GTX 1080 can derive 50 million addresses in one second. `479/50 = ~9.5` thus it'll take 9.5 seconds to derive all addresses and find your private key. As this was a master password instead of a private key, it will take a little longer. Let's say at most 2 minutes.

Not effective at all, except that it might take up to week day for the thief to think of rearranging the words.

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: thank for answer. Im whant to use Electrum. What are my options for enhancing seed phrase backup?  @username_4  

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