Hieuman/HNI-doc · Datasets at Hugging Face

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HNI_zwtaylor	I hope you're right, there _must_ be other components to their business model to warrant $116m in investment capital. At face value this all appears beyond foolish, though I'm rooting for them to make me eat my words down the road.<p> " ;21 Inc., formerly 21e6, announced it had raised US$116m in venture capital, the largest investment yet accumulated by a startup in the digital currency industry. 21 Inc.'s lead backers include American Andreessen Horowitz and RRE Venture, Chinese Yuan Capital, as well as strategic investor and chipmaker Qualcomm Inc. " ;<p><a href="http://_URL_0_/news/113668/bitcoin-startup-21-inc-reveals-industry-record-funding-of-116-million-dollars" rel="nofollow">http://_URL_0_/news/113668/bitcoin-startup-21-inc-...</a>	1,841,250	[ 1840795 ]	37	[ 1803395, 443316, 377116, 740751, 1045011, 25747, 1684030, 389280, 1274882, 442935, 286885, 476562, 410635, 1406406, 995003, 607756, 35313, 1285287, 1292691, 1757819, 1233319, 1788784, 1187225, 1075232, 481280, 402702, 1587165, 619551, 1182632, 1092923, 837195, 1595309, 530003, 16738, 152425, 1732817, 579446, 1644044, 1765294, 381280, 22533, 1001442, 1023551, 1459641, 802831, 1604263, 1344236, 1439446, 730701, 89318, 1732816, 1012246, 1228427, 343979, 1809566, 460985, 526787, 1311157, 1420547, 1436542, 151223, 1099885, 1085073, 88051, 766059, 1597746, 1437427, 126224, 76769, 1580450, 1128286, 1421461, 355027, 406372, 1045139, 1510615, 1218017, 555978, 897809, 1763517, 1063846, 1414814, 958223, 1537366, 72150, 1187739, 984298, 1090175, 1718023, 578939, 451626, 789570, 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HNI_zwtaylor	It doesn't seem to me like he has an agenda. Keep in mind that the " ;duck boats " ; are pretty much universally reviled by natives in Philadelphia; they are loud, feel out of place in the neighborhoods they operate in and are full of gawking tourists.<p>The incident in 2010 he mentioned was pretty big news in Philly. Just seems like a concerned reporter who was at the right place at the right time and noticed a series of recurring events with these boats.	1,841,251	null	217	[ 1436819, 897900, 752311, 1515451, 1291966, 46075, 99905, 1464333, 479890, 621570, 1294577, 447451, 1733225, 865426, 340131, 528121, 895121, 1060068, 1186863, 378175, 857035, 727519, 1313863, 834303, 43069, 680633, 360524, 179045, 1662023, 631677, 259170, 1555610, 673040, 399046, 1258564, 1807598, 1196400, 1571601, 1146787, 1215558, 394438, 1653262, 995726, 1361293, 170031, 749330, 620760, 1820400, 984323, 1243017, 997511, 235373, 636391, 1662055, 1796148, 702616, 1392247, 240461, 1040201, 946654, 1524792, 1520470, 1488132, 225663, 114284, 1744153, 876731, 1221922, 1825537, 1799548, 1376168, 764962, 123131, 1153629, 1692949, 1495540, 1812581, 1566128, 1372265, 1264277, 1061614, 977417, 550347, 213128, 1402838, 509446, 400283, 1439703, 1790428, 559426, 604059, 392546, 961768, 1764478, 250804, 1068354, 860014, 1524325, 646332, 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HNI_zx2c4	Confirmed:<p><pre><code> zx2c4@thinkpad ~ $ whois _URL_1_ %% _ _ %% This is the AFNIC Whois server. _ \| \|___ ____ _(_)___ %% \| \|\| / -_) (_- < \|\| \| (_- < %% complete date format : DD/MM/YYYY \__/\___\| /__/\_,_\|_/__/ %% short date format : DD/MM ___ _ _ ___ ___ _ _ ___ %% version : FRNIC-2.5 \| _\| \| \| . \| . \\| \| \| \| __\| %% \| \|_\| \| \| /\| \|_\| \| _\| %% Rights restricted by copyright. \|___\|_\|_\|_\|_\|_\_\\|___\|_\|___\| %% See http://_URL_0_/afnic/web/mentions-legales-whois_en %% %% Use '-h' option to obtain more information about this service. %% %% [<IP_ADDRESS><PHONE_NUMBER> REQUEST] > > -V Md5.1 _URL_1_ %% %% RL Net [##########] - RL IP [#########.] %%</code></pre>	1,841,252	[ 1840810, 1840819, 1840839, 1840808, 1840853, 1840826, 1840812, 1840806, 1840842 ]	2	[ 1736607, 1815725, 1759718, 873980, 641106, 885360, 1665196, 77962, 1482540, 271842, 113356, 508633, 242276, 89176, 1657335, 941685, 1701819, 421001, 1260594, 80568, 1488527, 1346076, 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HNI_zx2c4	Um, no. This isn't a throwaway account. This is my account - the username I use for everything. Type it into google. It's been my handle since I was super young. Whois the .com of it - I registered it in 2000.<p>IN FACT the mailing list archives of the pass mailing list happen to be at that domain. Here's the relevant post: <a href="http://_URL_0_/pipermail/password-store/2015-January/001336.html" rel="nofollow">http://_URL_0_/pipermail/password-store/2015-January...</a> This is from a CC that went to the GnuPG mailing list.	1,841,253	[ 1840812, 1840861, 1840819, 1840810, 1840842, 1840826, 1840808 ]	45	[ 1160771, 1046804, 1046945, 1293270, 1016221, 810439, 1732861, 898255, 1692823, 452409, 874243, 898280, 879500, 1244375, 982605, 1753375, 1299589, 1720639, 881222, 1093572, 4998, 1401999, 1221259, 1115081, 117652, 77952, 351622, 1604083, 1652634, 1401996, 914784, 1404788, 215522, 281680, 220749, 1221258, 1445434, 789488, 1455307, 1701270, 1069182, 531320, 1644632, 354749, 1657363, 1445872, 174942, 1033904, 1132601, 623696, 1274438, 612510, 1335523, 1250712, 1644629, 106230, 1687238, 702466, 1649476, 1367177, 528490, 1132073, 310042, 1392566, 1075352, 267485, 1300103, 878967, 648050, 333896, 610254, 1279841, 1087360, 117631, 887009, 451041, 695572, 1283751, 1091101, 47530, 1599005, 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HNI_zx2c4	Back in the day when Skype was a pretty cool peer-to-peer encrypted mesh network, that successfully evaded firewalls and traffic analysis, I wrote a tool to proxy Internet traffic ontop of the Skype mesh. I was quite young when I wrote it, but I managed to dust off an old demo screencast I made (and convert the swf to an mp4), which gave me a laugh. If you're curious:<p><a href="http://_URL_0_/skypeproxydemo.mp4" rel="nofollow">http://_URL_0_/skypeproxydemo.mp4</a>	1,841,254	[ 1840819, 1840831 ]	2	[ 1566631, 1284038, 829949, 1284050, 1112785, 1028337, 1571110, 1704243, 266286, 31238, 1374262, 1729776, 471310, 744691, 1714146, 373641, 1645940, 161346, 279801, 1762107, 1284065, 383380, 565533, 1284052, 133932, 141565, 912524, 1592230, 912585, 1513294, 1806483, 299003, 1235618, 668112, 578285, 31063, 1637886, 789533, 1284051, 521985, 1729680, 1072874, 796029, 1629301, 110081, 912536, 149077, 677075, 809701, 1596414, 912906, 1239310, 25604, 1798017, 1421220, 299747, 1577029, 1718883, 407121, 230029, 117323, 912697, 1569516, 209776, 1601381, 926659, 1053183, 1443879, 1830145, 661443, 1582950, 279542, 1750205, 298444, 912308, 1458546, 1221049, 912075, 565532, 141704, 1529227, 1141907, 1028940, 1361796, 1032745, 316614, 1362470, 1506938, 1034859, 1010863, 1835298, 1722020, 1392962, 1374163, 378039, 1605887, 1662740, 117098, 1155398, 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HNI_zx2c4	I use OpenVPN to tunnel iSCSI on a remote machine. Then I mount the iSCSI device using LUKS. Finally I rsync into the LUKS mount point. Encrypted, incremental, bla bla. Works pretty well. Here's the script:<p><pre><code> zx2c4@thinkpad ~ $ cat Projects/_URL_0_ #!/bin/sh cd " ;$(readlink -f " ;$(dirname " ;$0 " ;) " ;) " ; if [ $UID -ne 0 ]; then echo " ;You must be root. " ; exit 1 fi umount() { if ! /bin/umount " ;$1 " ;; then sleep 5 if ! /bin/umount " ;$1 " ;; then sleep 10 /bin/umount " ;$1 " ; fi fi } unwind() { echo " ;[-] ERROR: unwinding and quitting. " ; sleep 3 trace sync trace umount /mnt/mybackupserver-backup trace cryptsetup luksClose mybackupserver-backup \|\| { sleep 5; trace cryptsetup luksClose mybackupserver-backup; } trace iscsiadm -m node -U all trace kill %1 exit 1 } trace() { echo " ;[+] $@ " ; " ;$@ " ; } RSYNC_OPTS= " ;-i -rlptgoXDHxv --delete-excluded --delete --progress $RSYNC_OPTS " ; trap unwind INT TERM trace modprobe libiscsi trace modprobe scsi_transport_iscsi trace modprobe iscsi_tcp iscsid -f & sleep 1 trace iscsiadm -m discovery -t st -p mybackupserver.somehost.somewere -P 1 -l sleep 5 trace cryptsetup --key-file /etc/dmcrypt/backup-mybackupserver-key luksOpen /dev/disk/by-uuid/10a126a2-c991-49fc-89bf-8d621a73dd36 mybackupserver-backup \|\| unwind trace fsck -a /dev/mapper/mybackupserver-backup \|\| unwind trace mount -v /dev/mapper/mybackupserver-backup /mnt/mybackupserver-backup \|\| unwind trace rsync $RSYNC_OPTS --exclude=/usr/portage/distfiles --exclude=/home/zx2c4/.cache --exclude=/var/tmp / /mnt/mybackupserver-backup/root \|\| unwind trace rsync $RSYNC_OPTS /mnt/storage/Archives/ /mnt/mybackupserver-backup/archives \|\| unwind trace sync trace umount /mnt/mybackupserver-backup trace cryptsetup luksClose mybackupserver-backup trace iscsiadm -m node -U all trace kill %1</code></pre>	1,841,255	[ 1840819, 1840815, 1840810, 1840808, 1840806 ]	194	[ 460333, 448411, 1525476, 1072920, 1647368, 732362, 1496749, 1028714, 992241, 1829939, 1395945, 1830605, 1416097, 322696, 1199690, 408138, 1034884, 1307290, 998648, 1439097, 850769, 1200320, 1755955, 1280073, 850800, 1490281, 51608, 732673, 905663, 137911, 544759, 1319862, 297174, 298269, 1810411, 1469906, 151974, 1700520, 1185765, 1047361, 48903, 1343104, 1160882, 399114, 60040, 320525, 336462, 1306749, 1453038, 50337, 919488, 1657003, 445037, 336524, 1052571, 366679, 646640, 1604699, 1213316, 388333, 1126953, 1395961, 161746, 930136, 778708, 422518, 399145, 1215151, 1830602, 47563, 1161156, 612058, 1133413, 839919, 749144, 971813, 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HNI_zx2c4	<p><pre><code> > " ;Software design and programming were considered clerical work. " ; </code></pre> I realize that there's a certain art of code, and even a science that goes into the underlying algorithms, languages, and methodologies. Indeed I've spent the majority of my life now in one way or another transfixed by software development.<p>But it seems to me that the vast amount of code written is still, in fact, " ;clerical work " ;. Whether it's gluing together enterpriseBeanBuilderExpressionListMochaBusinessLogicAuditingFactories, or hooking up your node.js to your express.js to your bootstrap.js to transfer JSON over REST into your DOM, or even converting your 4000 character, 50 pipe bash one-liners into nicely polished scripts that properly account for exit codes, handle non-standard locations for sysfs, and work on a multitude of platforms, at the end of the day, a lot of this really does come down to clerical-style work. The difference is that the language, terminology, abstractions, and platforms are more obtuse than the previous generation's clerical work. The nouns are different and strange, but the predicates are all the same.<p>There are indeed wondrous areas in computer science and software engineering, but I think for most of us, we're just doing fairly menial work. We feel smart doing it, because it's still new enough that the objects and content of it are still uncustomary for most folks, and in fact the best of secretaries and clerks have indeed possessed great intelligence. But at the end of the day, we need to recognize that most of what we do is mere clerical work, glorified only by the odd shapes of the more obscure symbol keys on our keyboards.<p><i>ducks</i><p> " ;I swear, by clerical, I meant the clergy! " ;<p><i>ducks again</i>	1,841,256	[ 1840853, 1840845, 1840824, 1840865, 1840861, 1840815, 1840828, 1840802, 1840842, 1840805, 1840826 ]	196	[ 507637, 1218268, 40121, 1197935, 94981, 1516205, 999699, 826762, 234799, 100150, 467659, 634630, 1545232, 74110, 1418299, 1445725, 1301285, 921270, 1521881, 715829, 1692742, 1666916, 1656275, 1011270, 39972, 802542, 817540, 1659427, 726057, 621049, 608326, 986806, 1809918, 1159533, 1619502, 801515, 114237, 683673, 1375985, 1056264, 135580, 1479354, 126503, 830420, 1659438, 1156069, 1164821, 544315, 405667, 817103, 850584, 923860, 1249192, 819001, 650100, 109504, 206027, 159759, 245404, 828861, 31892, 450561, 652448, 1609378, 82827, 927835, 347672, 1041527, 1776356, 1020792, 1387886, 1093143, 1659428, 690042, 89401, 723295, 1021120, 110835, 1432635, 873888, 6775, 874873, 201023, 1132700, 469140, 643268, 399376, 976746, 1301596, 1523997, 508127, 110397, 483069, 953104, 1096883, 998171, 511610, 812647, 588279, 346924, 1074862, 1705773, 71649, 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HNI_zx2c4	Oh god. Just checked out this dbgr situation. Looks like they allow you to run arbitrary code inside one of their docker instances. DISASTER.<p>Never ever use docker for security. With a Linux kernel local root exploit (which are indeed plentiful), one can escape from a docker container into the initial namespaces of the system.<p>It doesn't even look like they bother keeping their kernel up to date either.<p>DISASTER!<p>I liked the approach I saw at a couple other sites -- compile an interpreter to JavaScript with emscripten, and have all the code execute client side.	1,841,257	null	69	[ 503638, 736619, 606720, 524945, 607612, 1028588, 439369, 504436, 1639263, 1607546, 1142865, 1642650, 560515, 535793, 1741243, 1181379, 607498, 544616, 232273, 562063, 544615, 851910, 850974, 427240, 1528754, 133605, 1710633, 906387, 143817, 560796, 863567, 1528639, 691683, 390292, 1266969, 435803, 194803, 82436, 232295, 643782, 725035, 690238, 1432769, 1009331, 162503, 1283567, 1383831, 435807, 1605077, 442269, 866774, 282731, 1432768, 1414100, 774173, 1497226, 1461355, 1519610, 554579, 1313373, 348059, 192212, 313130, 1013720, 1228019, 902754, 1050155, 432892, 476123, 1375466, 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HNI_zx2c4	How " ;natively " ; does this deal with GMail? My experience with most non-google mail clients is that the GMail support is almost always broken or ugly in some way. Does it archive correctly? Label correct? Does it make use of GMail's IMAP extensions for doing the right things? If not, how does it work? What level of integration into the GMail workflow is there? I have for a long time desired a good desktop client for GMail, but all of them rely on an unacceptably bad mapping between IMAP and GMail idioms that I still have not found an acceptable one. How does N1 differ?	1,841,258	[ 1840853, 1840839, 1840837, 1840812, 1840861, 1840831, 1840841, 1840825, 1840836, 1840835, 1840842, 1840819, 1840838, 1840862, 1840864, 1840827, 1840810, 1840844, 1840834, 1840824, 1840829, 1840865, 1840845, 1840830, 1840840, 1840866, 1840828, 1840805, 1840802, 1840823, 1840820, 1840863, 1840847, 1840857, 1840848, 1840803, 1840846, 1840855, 1840813, 1840826, 1840833 ]	149	[ 92338, 676950, 180881, 711051, 1408045, 1696514, 834585, 113965, 117208, 1504726, 1037312, 249459, 241180, 1766038, 227500, 841355, 1652491, 216685, 733099, 1690896, 346003, 120120, 1676060, 1652487, 190849, 1229967, 924178, 974810, 426953, 1311850, 1338143, 1748984, 1485532, 614189, 268310, 778534, 1023968, 1469586, 1652492, 1127358, 345952, 228268, 1593036, 216998, 1370009, 1352388, 1671285, 1626390, 501953, 852241, 1067600, 85067, 459064, 1282536, 1282574, 195225, 1613359, 1819869, 1765401, 1170528, 1525841, 914779, 765513, 1669686, 1561920, 32354, 1075445, 169502, 1517280, 1402632, 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HNI_zx2c4	Wow awesome. If this works entirely locally, this is something I've been looking for for a long time. I might wind up making command line utilities out of it. Or even apply for a Nylas job. Email is something I care about an awful lot.<p>If, on the other hand, this makes use of some Nylas-hosted server, I'm a bit bummed out, since this would mean all my data is transferred through Nylas servers.<p>Which is it? Or should I just bite the bullet and read the source?	1,841,259	null	149	[ 90963, 1617320, 547468, 90965, 777090, 90966, 1657342, 352192, 1749273, 90939, 1657343, 355247, 1617326, 1749272, 351685, 90967, 1431108, 1679041, 1657344, 1667056, 50846, 1532304, 1617331, 426422, 777091, 1617316, 1679040, 1679031, 1679044, 1114057, 1617330, 1622798, 603276, 426421, 489709, 807899, 1787430, 1679042, 1679046, 1749275, 1679059, 91203, 90973, 535952, 1787417, 1701809, 1262952, 155946, 168081, 140449, 1609109, 947372, 275374, 140360, 524198, 1465444, 1088922, 678004, 1617323, 1418988, 1416627, 716108, 1679022, 1657333, 1819780, 936836, 1647604, 451325, 1224328, 1719766, 1211575, 132953, 49468, 1657821, 113457, 117982, 1679052, 927532, 661021, 1617313, 1662077, 1778638, 1105784, 524315, 168083, 996221, 149860, 442959, 524316, 1657335, 1661152, 1755817, 1736448, 1069830, 1528330, 616567, 1554127, 960839, 1657336, 708262, 431209, 427540, 388878, 864579, 952305, 1073200, 1679029, 751160, 1488624, 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HNI_zx2c4	It's a conversation that's been going on for a long time now over various channels but has/had mostly stagnated into a disappointing lull of complacency. The <PERSON> results were a big wake up to that, and my own finding yesterday was the final straw: fresh ideas and voices on how to carry the project toward maturation are quite necessary, as well as smart folks like yourself becoming interested in reviewing the source code.	1,841,260	[ 1840853, 1840865, 1840824, 1840815, 1840802, 1840808, 1840845, 1840861, 1840805, 1840833, 1840826, 1840803, 1840842, 1840837, 1840813, 1840828, 1840816, 1840854 ]	196	[ 1375453, 59090, 845233, 1629297, 1473530, 1767507, 1795533, 610566, 846608, 404499, 121381, 349938, 532339, 1001154, 1598800, 1564932, 692458, 940550, 1713353, 53318, 591232, 1206696, 1169734, 1376025, 1774606, 880420, 1822319, 445176, 1681283, 79268, 626155, 1388011, 299863, 152215, 934723, 397344, 1446793, 106326, 1166161, 368045, 1745550, 1028383, 1598281, 1382120, 1326522, 1256209, 1555133, 1020865, 1383530, 720572, 1627005, 1623691, 722428, 1718496, 1042549, 1836096, 1233798, 1327290, 232345, 1337454, 1249314, 693497, 1738764, 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HNI_zx2c4	This is really extremely nice. Some questions:<p>I noticed that after adding a folder to the library, it simply adds all the filepaths in that folder to _URL_0_. It doesn't cache any of the metadata. This means that it has to rescan everytime. I'm wondering what thoughts went into that design decision. On the one hand, it's very easy to manage, since it's just a list of files. On the other hand, for large collections, startup time can be considerable. I have 109GiB of music, but with a top of the line SSD, it only took ten or fifteen seconds to scan the whole thing, which isn't bad.<p>On a similar note, it appears that because it adds all the <i>files</i> to the _URL_0_ file, and not the top level directory I added, it doesn't have any support for noticing when new files are added to my ~/music folder. This means I have to re-add ~/music when I add files to it. I guess that's not too bad. And I assume it won't add duplicates or anything if I re-add the root level directory. But what about when I remove items? Will it be smart enough to detect that they're not there? (An algorithm like: " ;I just traversed a directory for which there is an existing file entry in _URL_0_, but during this traversal I didn't see it. I should therefore remove it. " ;)	1,841,261	[ 1840837, 1840826, 1840853, 1840839, 1840819 ]	194	[ 897326, 619492, 394176, 1446072, 1586060, 695920, 1504326, 425372, 1225340, 537783, 1707126, 1453035, 1275559, 333845, 721588, 908342, 303164, 1636481, 1049235, 1171091, 1451718, 1741156, 224622, 1393999, 466583, 1153172, 164025, 1588449, 161416, 909168, 953743, 811116, 1169603, 1569706, 1494853, 13598, 657142, 325194, 1537888, 312785, 321996, 913677, 1190225, 240576, 66863, 241126, 576041, 1738018, 578578, 473704, 648314, 578369, 59648, 468073, 47307, 423565, 1121169, 1387902, 167266, 505749, 676252, 337717, 1141169, 1164527, 1519785, 1468077, 1208787, 674161, 296286, 1582425, 230842, 1125482, 815288, 1475965, 928224, 850553, 1237532, 227249, 12670, 1314101, 971116, 357080, 1284520, 193953, 1066337, 1042386, 125231, 599358, 1808444, 462236, 1760809, 914836, 861732, 887045, 209981, 778643, 1233665, 92180, 883653, 1303439, 1657411, 358597, 95263, 879487, 39440, 355179, 633856, 123392, 1673955, 169635, 120801, 1527723, 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HNI_zx2c4	Does cling support a C99 or C11 mode?<p>A lot of times, for C development and related endeavors, I want to quickly determine the size of a struct or do some quick tests with strange arithmetic or casting or whatever else. Usually I just write a tiny test program, compile it, run it, and look at my printf output. This is pretty slow though. Having a C REPL would be quite nice.<p>It would be nice to see a wrapper around GCC that does this, for, say, a kernel source REPL.	1,841,262	[ 1840815, 1840865, 1840808, 1840853, 1840803, 1840819, 1840837, 1840845, 1840828, 1840831, 1840813, 1840824, 1840802, 1840833 ]	167	[ 1289017, 918600, 1678226, 1325823, 473333, 190817, 654045, 848747, 1416815, 726887, 544135, 290142, 1081052, 126691, 1004911, 488988, 1553099, 562376, 43657, 815437, 290140, 1144861, 907957, 217070, 274144, 1415685, 850329, 528521, 933239, 227642, 662986, 11481, 1416817, 552454, 660816, 225528, 1303450, 387140, 1230719, 978926, 449062, 745111, 290136, 878500, 267060, 552508, 1672785, 1553102, 679418, 1539622, 1384098, 1207872, 1706319, 878329, 66910, 1038645, 893367, 552458, 1223511, 817165, 1688851, 1777312, 230132, 1509665, 1823069, 874223, 1470960, 467011, 169799, 1536879, 290141, 1611580, 1061791, 1313554, 1562110, 1266590, 1179642, 950011, 1755406, 1342196, 1576614, 562399, 473398, 1604479, 902795, 950259, 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HNI_zx2c4	Another service using pathetic password hashing:<p><a href="https://_URL_0_/hmngwy/_URL_1_/blob/master/lib/ssh/exec.js#L231" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/hmngwy/_URL_1_/blob/master/lib/ssh/exec...</a><p><pre><code> else if(command[0] === 'password') { if(args.length===0) { stream.write('→ You need to specify a password.\n\r'); stream.end(); return; } var hash = require('sha256'); var payload = args; var salt = schemas.randomString(32); userMeta.user.hash = hash(payload + salt); userMeta.user.salt = salt; userMeta.user.token = schemas.randomString(64); stream.write('… Saving new password'+LB); userMeta.user.save(function(err, saved){ if(err){ stream.write('→ Password update failed.'+LB); } var response = []; response.push( " ;→ password for " ;+saved.username+ " ; updated " ;+LB); stream.write(response.join(LB)); stream.exit(0); stream.end(); }); }</code></pre>	1,841,263	[ 1840819, 1840812, 1840810, 1840808 ]	57	[ 535127, 862826, 609110, 269645, 1163650, 512546, 1092227, 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HNI_zx2c4	This is great to hear. I'm glad the project is progressing.<p>For those not in the know, JMAP is a protocol for mail that, unlike IMAP, has threads and labels built-in at its core. In other words, Gmail without Gmail.<p>And it's about time somebody came along and built something sane for this.<p>There have been a lot of valiant attempts at this. Thunderbird has a few buggy extensions that attempt it. Notmuch is a very well written library and command line MUA with a very fast on-disk storage format (with ncurses, emacs, and vim interfaces, as well as neat FUSE file system toys), but it is not a protocol, and therefore does not scale well beyond the limited set of MUAs for it that mostly need a shell or a flimsy web app. Mailpile is an attempt at making a Web 2.0 style Gmail clone, but it's only an MUA and the on-disk format is flimsy at best.<p>JMAP defines the protocol first. Then, multiple people can take a stab at the most sane implementation. I like this approach quite a bit.	1,841,264	null	149	[ 217838, 1016363, 1114853, 1447451, 130882, 1778452, 147949, 1274658, 1745348, 1016329, 1467799, 446533, 446603, 1822629, 840403, 446518, 155459, 752117, 351686, 1658483, 1112436, 1074249, 351737, 638193, 755881, 535952, 1749647, 1403407, 875653, 134831, 656151, 935216, 1174374, 1114593, 905601, 1778457, 1054204, 1778455, 1114618, 446593, 1677637, 403338, 679390, 1611859, 351785, 383690, 1447453, 473549, 1081822, 972200, 352311, 1301189, 1185843, 1199702, 1108954, 403337, 1161981, 938790, 1126991, 1274393, 263786, 1629636, 525244, 1778450, 1113910, 1585719, 1244054, 446485, 1447447, 1010674, 1388218, 1041372, 458128, 473659, 560798, 1058925, 1073869, 352179, 1442091, 1041325, 1114619, 919744, 1784402, 1282360, 1447452, 147947, 399276, 1538513, 607725, 1083408, 1229966, 208035, 842381, 446579, 1405286, 1373337, 352314, 1433805, 1192053, 1454355, 748801, 441351, 283791, 833115, 101079, 1041185, 1233321, 631762, 1679029, 1114594, 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HNI_zx2c4	I switched to Google Domains a while ago for personal use. It's a bummer that yet another important thing is centralized in my Google account, but seeing as Google already handles critical things (email -- > account resets), I don't introduce an additional vulnerability by hosting my domains with them. Hopefully, by now, their two factor situation is sufficient, and their manual processes of sending scans of passports undergoes sufficient scrutiny. Anybody have any information on this? How strong is Google account security these days?	1,841,265	[ 1840812, 1840861, 1840810, 1840805, 1840819, 1840842, 1840864, 1840824, 1840826, 1840839, 1840806, 1840853, 1840820, 1840822, 1840845, 1840831, 1840862 ]	45	[ 1613428, 1364186, 610419, 1164197, 796496, 8221, 741010, 899106, 674417, 727347, 1114354, 1337128, 627315, 1836991, 259768, 924171, 37598, 1532102, 376761, 41460, 1224677, 603765, 1641604, 1201093, 978061, 1569780, 1788508, 1678617, 1694143, 1617944, 1274322, 1838918, 1195143, 592322, 396847, 788612, 1076240, 273400, 1690900, 727488, 1528574, 1053402, 1772854, 1168035, 1114598, 977952, 796480, 170912, 1648513, 886269, 879918, 551904, 393708, 1377625, 383008, 1067600, 912486, 440290, 310849, 689064, 912626, 1825489, 1224747, 828331, 1191372, 912538, 240102, 1653683, 1556477, 912761, 1133461, 152259, 1009289, 539172, 1000, 1746140, 1112009, 6242, 673094, 752222, 346277, 1266754, 1035721, 610406, 1351212, 1763124, 1114090, 830984, 1784377, 1678624, 1444610, 415123, 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HNI_zx2c4	> I doubt that<p>Just tried for a few minutes all 3 of them. The C2S is a C2550, and the C2M and C2L are C2750. They each appear to be bare metal, and not virtualized. The VPS offering, which is advertised as a VPS, appears to be virtualized inside of a C2750. The C1 is a Marvell Armada 370/XP, a bare metal ARMv7l board.<p> > I would consider their offers " ;ad-supported " ;.<p>This also is not my experience. I haven't ever received spam from them, nor received advertising.<p> > Avotons are very slow<p>This part of what you wrote is true, unfortunately. :(	1,841,266	[ 1840819, 1840810 ]	39	[ 920730, 1466478, 912338, 1136530, 599321, 108473, 728217, 26654, 209287, 1082299, 1070373, 1440631, 1832576, 478286, 1768286, 1040689, 1456665, 758384, 801078, 1440640, 558283, 737992, 1489622, 662602, 836041, 466364, 1818122, 1367978, 91842, 608573, 1218774, 742139, 1351010, 571195, 976475, 1259956, 1412176, 766542, 1109148, 1162769, 384900, 233564, 175153, 445310, 119946, 575947, 195213, 605456, 1748794, 1460832, 1129865, 107124, 1710740, 315417, 1513886, 1805622, 1796477, 214887, 1474145, 1607546, 342523, 1162771, 1574733, 959035, 435757, 1259953, 1384982, 1560755, 558268, 437743, 1249975, 546075, 1496741, 156797, 646818, 1392001, 182544, 726816, 1668840, 1218539, 1594921, 1254080, 108495, 1567860, 1459919, 1421419, 215618, 937590, 423249, 1078359, 444615, 956570, 1704206, 1173608, 1161790, 719821, 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HNI_zx2c4	I got super excited at first, but then...<p>The servers are based on: <a href="http://_URL_1_/products/33927/Intel-Xeon-Processor-E5420-12M-Cache-2_50-GHz-1333-MHz-FSB" rel="nofollow">http://_URL_1_/products/33927/Intel-Xeon-Processor-E54...</a> and <a href="http://_URL_1_/products/47927/Intel-Xeon-Processor-L5630-12M-Cache-2_13-GHz-5_86-GTs-Intel-QPI" rel="nofollow">http://_URL_1_/products/47927/Intel-Xeon-Processor-L56...</a><p>These are super ancient.<p>If you're looking for affordable north american servers, OVH has the Kimsufi outlet which is cheaper and better hardware. They've got a data center in Canada and will give you American IPs from their AS in Newark, NJ:<p><a href="https://_URL_2_/us/en/" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_2_/us/en/</a><p>The parent company of scaleway, _URL_0_, also has some inexpensive offerings, but the servers are in France which might be a deal breaker for you. (Delimiter seems to be in Atlanta.)	1,841,267	[ 1840853, 1840819 ]	39	[ 96, 933338, 899093, 1217437, 1465255, 1309633, 1529453, 933342, 761243, 1521935, 874400, 1286257, 599417, 1151051, 933366, 688151, 1641045, 644624, 1090014, 187711, 1179699, 1544464, 1441195, 1774779, 864552, 1256510, 1413635, 379098, 570625, 579574, 599418, 1374382, 951800, 1735344, 1000008, 680509, 959129, 1394371, 500997, 1468690, 1819832, 104400, 1490266, 1524537, 97, 813817, 1820461, 1793498, 1785656, 769423, 1378836, 872688, 121883, 569985, 249218, 1336295, 720018, 1465134, 1817760, 1594927, 578971, 55406, 450072, 1508295, 1045152, 1508447, 610038, 1559036, 1272680, 1506253, 1631619, 1576434, 722506, 769320, 517915, 1001142, 399170, 538676, 786875, 959128, 933353, 1443316, 1089895, 1465570, 794194, 1684501, 745360, 761245, 1078149, 1161973, 335418, 1047581, 569987, 1209159, 1034035, 260268, 1133498, 1455363, 322421, 1256355, 725602, 86418, 1053184, 922368, 1213213, 19148, 899118, 866184, 1508282, 1080679, 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HNI_zx2c4	There are a lot more problems than you think with letting users have arbitrary code execution. And no, Docker is not an acceptable security solution for this, since it's most certainly possible to break out of containers. Even if you're using a dedicated VM, this is not a good idea. And from a brief look at glot-code-runner, it doesn't seem like there's even that much built in to protect against various forms of use.<p>A more sane design would be to use something like emscripten to enable all these different languages to run in the browser.	1,841,268	null	69	[ 560515, 444028, 234697, 965759, 1414098, 1079955, 504010, 1471799, 503638, 544147, 1414100, 1553833, 1236213, 690783, 935865, 1618610, 1087385, 14062, 1012022, 1346645, 480025, 691683, 1414102, 512962, 1281506, 980730, 547422, 1302083, 1367744, 1763362, 1414080, 1748207, 1793054, 504023, 1517098, 1153783, 831739, 1487974, 995278, 1372205, 861924, 1414090, 507686, 225050, 256862, 1829211, 425568, 1302112, 643784, 1034726, 1020277, 496429, 608683, 1315186, 1274126, 217143, 140577, 1414104, 1021227, 732348, 741702, 836563, 1530647, 1816795, 774629, 1371174, 130855, 888285, 1110978, 67324, 1399683, 1353307, 265097, 1678672, 309353, 351478, 528519, 1787926, 818857, 1407646, 1294800, 939195, 690794, 1299638, 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HNI_zx2c4	From TFA:<p> " ;Shortened Article Length<p>Another common piece of feedback was that our content at times can be overwhelming because of its length and that long articles are more difficult to navigate and find what you’re looking for. To address this, we’ve broken down many longer articles into smaller logical steps and provided Previous and Next buttons at the bottom of articles to navigate between steps in a multi-part tutorial as shown below. " ;<p>Sounds like a race to the bottom. I very much prefer long single-page articles.	1,841,269	[ 1840842, 1840853, 1840861, 1840845, 1840805, 1840824, 1840837, 1840826, 1840813, 1840865, 1840808, 1840854, 1840841, 1840802, 1840833, 1840828, 1840848, 1840815, 1840831, 1840843, 1840846, 1840812, 1840851, 1840830, 1840864, 1840817, 1840827, 1840804, 1840803, 1840825, 1840860, 1840834, 1840823, 1840855, 1840811, 1840816, 1840852, 1840847 ]	48	[ 923027, 479475, 1823127, 237091, 627131, 1393944, 1474945, 576109, 420972, 980764, 111382, 515838, 1784796, 718743, 948762, 1478688, 572736, 1071738, 373760, 1336935, 231881, 1790087, 795795, 1711105, 727232, 277552, 917690, 521514, 877006, 663033, 1032120, 1624154, 1246020, 1718362, 513549, 554146, 655377, 862194, 1490408, 90363, 1615179, 1361072, 1433186, 1779282, 1817150, 1336963, 746628, 543391, 1787889, 1668556, 719145, 246086, 1020511, 1244020, 1815771, 1478703, 944387, 225484, 442549, 1410477, 1231572, 872506, 846892, 1403644, 829832, 470293, 514031, 53975, 1194887, 773570, 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HNI_zx2c4	In case anyone's curious, I've been using Makefiles for web development for a long time. The src files of a webpage are un-minified javascript, less/sass files, and thumbnails. The dst files are the minified/built/thumbnailed output. This suits Make particularly well.<p><a href="https://_URL_1_/zx2c4/11de49b2780c787b3ed5e1ee39485747" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_1_/zx2c4/11de49b2780c787b3ed5e1ee394857...</a><p>That's the Makefile I use on <a href="https://_URL_0_/" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/</a> if you're interested. It also has in it some very simple ssh/rsync deployment mechanism. Since the deployment relies on the built files, I can simply run:<p><pre><code> $ make deploy </code></pre> And the entire webpage is built and deployed in one step.<p>Every webpage I manage has a variant of this, with all sorts of rules for building and managing things. It turns out to be much easier than grunt or ant or random bash scripts or vagrant or whatever else kids use these days.	1,841,270	[ 1840853, 1840808, 1840815, 1840865, 1840826 ]	202	[ 644266, 810357, 1056348, 1281945, 606658, 644852, 884645, 280580, 1132023, 1025011, 373724, 799507, 1345331, 593537, 1539541, 806706, 50337, 258956, 1703992, 382188, 1840722, 203492, 1317066, 230479, 8297, 1818637, 1054458, 741713, 1090198, 13335, 919246, 1629512, 25180, 1569692, 272181, 919111, 938454, 234882, 1592884, 702425, 617804, 702444, 938733, 1032601, 1275192, 702465, 866900, 1797207, 1178727, 1604624, 571236, 1303488, 1178626, 1309035, 1128414, 921456, 730211, 56677, 1481170, 258963, 702417, 371326, 1128449, 1110001, 694647, 311495, 63331, 166291, 1648926, 1753056, 1652490, 137850, 1082186, 703103, 1154101, 615148, 1652508, 1064920, 537076, 1521862, 254238, 1657080, 143892, 533042, 1218550, 860524, 109896, 266056, 1352108, 1355744, 1326493, 1250424, 245372, 1785084, 1256555, 1128716, 55465, 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HNI_zx2c4	I don't know anything about the politics involved, and I don't even use nano (vim guy myself), but I just ran this out of curiosity:<p><pre><code> zx2c4@thinkpad ~/nano $ git shortlog -sne --since '3 years ago' 1298 Benno Schulenberg < <EMAIL_ADDRESS> > 64 Chris Allegretta < <EMAIL_ADDRESS> > 6 Jordi Mallach < <EMAIL_ADDRESS> > 3 Mike Frysinger < <EMAIL_ADDRESS> > 3 Mike Scalora < <EMAIL_ADDRESS> > 2 Rishabh Dave < <EMAIL_ADDRESS><PERSON> < [email protected] > 6 <PERSON> < [email protected] > 3 Mike Frysinger < [email protected] > 3 <PERSON> < [email protected] > 2 <PERSON> < [email protected] > </code></pre> Seems like <PERSON> is clearly the driving force behind the project.	1,841,271	[ 1840853 ]	105	[ 152510, 1082757, 73536, 771014, 811695, 452787, 1686343, 1028372, 288457, 1179470, 489431, 1309784, 476776, 1590334, 741272, 1633685, 1372514, 362100, 162796, 922575, 1088305, 893735, 1751746, 534363, 1539658, 753877, 147512, 131282, 1280457, 1791172, 600298, 1124623, 48541, 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HNI_zx2c4	Oh cool you came to the kernel recipes talk. Much has progressed since then.<p>I wrote an email on LKML and netdev today to <PERSON>, the network subsystem maintainer. It's not ready for a [PATCH] set now, but it is ready to get initial feedback from them, so that I can start to get things ready for upstreaming. So: that's on the roadmap and a primary objective!	1,841,272	[ 1840865, 1840815 ]	123	[ 382738, 1766798, 1266009, 1407980, 1666971, 513529, 313519, 690187, 1448354, 867007, 727438, 1760629, 428574, 96948, 1112786, 695710, 448640, 1482751, 1639559, 1321717, 1695257, 797095, 719665, 645798, 668415, 1836087, 39477, 1755331, 1343318, 1724202, 1728815, 1203386, 1127362, 568538, 1543044, 1558402, 1704677, 7835, 621847, 679340, 1641108, 1265715, 639329, 169026, 513783, 729669, 1306814, 1613107, 1231366, 1568667, 259981, 249248, 1711575, 252567, 1094664, 113008, 1624162, 850637, 810360, 581264, 610065, 484145, 138949, 1178298, 545547, 358277, 1203979, 252967, 1472306, 395150, 373187, 615528, 1625294, 1795775, 1684739, 901304, 852369, 193, 87013, 1024806, 407936, 269174, 1707636, 68385, 1086041, 1593701, 216674, 916290, 462608, 1669525, 1343373, 1025577, 1118952, 1322696, 481292, 329568, 1460621, 147167, 270133, 1093716, 959622, 1828513, 87032, 1634536, 53751, 940340, 771104, 553202, 1091667, 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HNI_zx2c4	Speed, simplicity.<p>It's not possible to do highspeed crypto from userspace while still integrating with the usual networking stack. Tun devices result in copies and context switches which makes things quite slow.<p>This also adds quite a bit of simplicity.<p>But sure, I agree, it's scary. But not nearly as scary as the obscenely huge xfrm/ipsec layer in the kernel. Or the dozens of other kernel tunneling deivces available. And I dare even say it's not as scary as most userspace VPN solutions like OpenVPN which are massive code bases. WireGuard, in contrast, aims to be quite minimal in its codebase, so that it can be audited by an individual.<p>I didn't make the title of this HN post, unfortunately. But do note: there _will_ be userspace implementations of WireGuard. It's most certainly not tied to the kernel. It's just that the OP saw me present at a kernel conf about it. :P	1,841,273	[ 1840808, 1840819 ]	2	[ 1014772, 292064, 1438944, 818321, 1221310, 1190873, 816021, 1653349, 1438385, 1594873, 504201, 1629705, 1243606, 89256, 504203, 690925, 1256418, 1822845, 553254, 1608076, 486766, 1429201, 866272, 112584, 691399, 1052574, 866255, 464725, 46824, 1709940, 473556, 1378035, 1319891, 691050, 1488521, 781108, 1430125, 765851, 691987, 1466260, 646640, 31210, 1126831, 1608091, 1553525, 549370, 1476689, 691688, 1742621, 576483, 267453, 504036, 309474, 336527, 549387, 1418616, 1427703, 1237522, 293105, 66931, 1496831, 1082391, 690173, 1187023, 692393, 1190774, 379377, 296146, 340635, 1151173, 718677, 390649, 214871, 1427529, 125146, 387209, 217857, 1834184, 506209, 343064, 1769714, 1228019, 327792, 1429854, 1470805, 294670, 592994, 902477, 336390, 1487705, 787313, 787316, 631871, 1015054, 1344593, 1151756, 84841, 832968, 690257, 488598, 1209111, 1685984, 420072, 879869, 691586, 84839, 561533, 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HNI_zx2c4	> Does the server get a separate wg interface for every client that connects?<p>No. Each wg interface has a public/private key. It then has a list of peers' public keys and associated allowed IPs. By tying each public key to the allowed IPs of that public key, you can be sure that if a packet comes from wg0 and comes from a particular src IP, it comes from who you want. So no need for a new wg0 for each peer.<p> > Does this do a DH key agreement to guarantee forward secrecy or does it literally encrypt the packet with the peers public key?<p>It uses a 1-RTT ECDH key agreement based on the Noise Protocol Framework, with identity hiding, perfect forward secrecy, and so forth. So, it does what you hoped it does. :)<p> > Phase3 DMVPN<p>I'm not familiar with this, but I'll read up on it. Just found a large cisco document describing it. I suspect that " ;automatic discovery " ; wouldn't be very much to my taste, but I'll read up on it before dismissing it wholesale.	1,841,274	[ 1840810, 1840819, 1840839, 1840808, 1840831, 1840806, 1840812, 1840815, 1840865 ]	2	[ 1649413, 455018, 597614, 1360163, 1254150, 383170, 181439, 3711, 350840, 594536, 336441, 1336040, 1003635, 350845, 1403167, 1156642, 1021192, 1161870, 1388316, 941300, 181458, 580748, 1091851, 1405223, 471894, 48252, 785803, 885938, 606218, 1209563, 229082, 446026, 1278551, 294514, 513428, 1278552, 1811992, 757925, 739881, 669920, 49549, 989211, 594535, 597442, 950403, 126926, 782890, 1507654, 1724948, 56750, 1840074, 180927, 954501, 1234169, 1163435, 1454304, 1427378, 49430, 1520387, 1279807, 74713, 127062, 1016234, 348505, 1028937, 1430873, 1191787, 1493909, 907767, 892987, 315428, 209242, 1489792, 547465, 420076, 1404961, 1143225, 1256830, 1692560, 542723, 1543179, 556524, 1673947, 597192, 209980, 1742435, 824373, 1461097, 307864, 504298, 1191786, 165872, 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HNI_zx2c4	> Just remember to aid others' verification efforts later on by keeping it modular, minimal shared state, simple constructions in code, and so on. Whatever passes through a decent static analysis tool.<p>Yes this absolutely is the goal. I'm trying to keep the codebase as small and clear as possible.<p> > Design by Contract<p>Working out the precise pre and post conditions of every state would indeed be worthwhile. For all state transitions of the protocol, I've worked out by hand every possible combination and accounted it for it. I should publicize this work (i.e. type up my handwritten notes), and then let others join building on top of it.	1,841,275	[ 1840808, 1840819, 1840865 ]	213	[ 1080515, 1080513, 358522, 550021, 594334, 519351, 335900, 1080962, 644906, 854414, 878891, 219192, 1383926, 1103332, 299546, 910290, 20185, 134869, 1118597, 1373781, 512568, 396733, 1768524, 1193784, 1827427, 126151, 94360, 1034941, 1082244, 1125505, 375468, 945177, 1559411, 976184, 525944, 205642, 1527805, 1151104, 1636581, 780193, 427823, 1473469, 733414, 485280, 963656, 1686, 703240, 1805626, 987353, 303589, 1668425, 1137742, 1080105, 1828853, 1488494, 1033984, 846411, 881283, 1382632, 762633, 1522594, 117309, 60181, 1413772, 1402729, 1339287, 1086941, 715986, 1559067, 1194427, 832928, 692785, 465183, 1190774, 1513277, 178730, 1601193, 716280, 1183798, 232757, 543965, 126614, 1567135, 1019605, 876179, 716234, 1073476, 1263663, 855927, 1460415, 332060, 1587533, 857344, 980542, 1473071, 1178930, 1393396, 1102923, 1078268, 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HNI_zx2c4	> How do you deal with MTU? OpenVPN's handing is particularly bad [1]?<p>MTU is dealt with the same way as other kernel space tunneling devices.<p> > Is the whole protocol in-kernel or just the data plane?<p>All of it, which is why there's so much emphasis on simplicity.<p> > For admins who want to provision large number of clients, do you ever plan to implement some kind of certificate hierarchy?<p>Rather, the goal is to make the kernel interface very simple and minimal, so that admins can then glue ontop whatever situation they want. This could be certificates, or pigeons, but the important thing is that it's a layer ontop (in userspace), and not intimately bound to the core.	1,841,276	[ 1840819, 1840865, 1840811, 1840815, 1840802, 1840810, 1840803, 1840839, 1840820, 1840808, 1840806 ]	176	[ 1126831, 572371, 690925, 769378, 37151, 1834174, 307924, 1749179, 1378035, 542805, 1265471, 549387, 190940, 1446354, 1496831, 783681, 336545, 1092002, 996248, 504203, 1171238, 49451, 1073637, 135864, 1553525, 1059071, 1470259, 31210, 336353, 1014772, 214905, 112584, 149501, 1594873, 1306969, 429861, 429856, 690960, 690257, 1265465, 593720, 1629705, 449068, 1059226, 1487705, 1044313, 363361, 631871, 84838, 783741, 646640, 606832, 549370, 1306970, 1746988, 791593, 1309272, 722085, 1032181, 1243608, 192231, 691124, 1204795, 1306972, 592950, 853104, 124471, 547689, 1653044, 718421, 464725, 718430, 267074, 1073683, 966884, 866272, 1397281, 1551228, 692392, 689022, 1187023, 695901, 1815697, 1154279, 358218, 853105, 1761669, 888058, 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HNI_zx2c4	Because it's necessary for any reasonable performance. If you're concerned about this, you might have several heart attacks when you look at the obscene amount of code that IPsec has in the kernel. IPsec is the only other alternative for high speed VPNs, and it's frighteningly complex, both in deployment and in codebase.<p>WireGuard, on the contrary, is around 4000 lines of core code. This is super short, and allows for a single individual to audit it. By focusing on simplicity and ease-of-auditability, I hope to achieve something that can be considered secure.<p>Compare this to the massive codebase of OpenVPN/OpenSSL and the various other userspace (read: slow as mollasses) VPNs. WireGuard is considerably shorter and simpler than those too.<p>Also, keep in mind that on Linux, jumping from userspace to ring0 execution isn't exactly difficult. So in practice I'm not sure it matters.<p>I make a living by exploiting kernels. This makes me very aware of the questions associated with running this in the kernel. I've tried to write WireGuard using my experience breaking similar codebases; WireGuard is short enough that it should receive the thorough attention that this sort of software deserves. By focusing on simplicity, I think we can in time achieve something quite trustworthy.<p>Finally, there will be a (necessarily lower speed) cross platform implementation released that's written in Rust. At the end of the day I suspect that all parties will find themselves pleased.	1,841,277	[ 1840808, 1840819 ]	2	[ 1429201, 1438944, 473556, 1430125, 725190, 1082391, 1430091, 1429853, 1430094, 420072, 1466259, 343064, 1512217, 1504115, 292064, 327792, 842644, 1466260, 1488521, 654983, 910921, 1430096, 1422553, 1429854, 1429852, 1082392, 691050, 1094749, 1427703, 332117, 1430095, 1652205, 1749277, 947311, 1256418, 1209111, 1080512, 654982, 180876, 1409226, 1429855, 395530, 6599, 1378036, 1080517, 692478, 1409225, 1161870, 1378035, 654958, 336466, 1024198, 689455, 1428735, 1430093, 56819, 692076, 1429200, 1427702, 504203, 608962, 783741, 447837, 866255, 120122, 66931, 1014772, 473936, 446697, 1749278, 187680, 631871, 1487705, 1126831, 1459177, 1032149, 1488525, 147930, 1193168, 1204144, 1003327, 1738077, 202831, 1256368, 1243072, 336401, 1605892, 403382, 328401, 692341, 1430098, 910922, 1182692, 473549, 755851, 910918, 1457670, 690257, 124842, 849482, 782953, 1082378, 1612451, 1170995, 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HNI_zx2c4	Replay attacks don't work because of the nonce, so that's handled successfully.<p>But an attacker with an <i>active</i> man in the middle position might change the outer (unencrypted) src IP of a packet. However, that src will need to be able to produce authentic replies; otherwise the session will quickly be deemed invalid, so that mitigates any potential very oddball amplification attacks you could dream up. And regardless, an attacker with this kind of active man in the middle can already drop packets at will, so this isn't a vulnerability.	1,841,278	[ 1840819, 1840812, 1840808, 1840831, 1840806, 1840810 ]	2	[ 1165952, 755387, 1031439, 44387, 1741282, 855736, 612877, 535169, 1760095, 178214, 691889, 1808421, 1579591, 578098, 1543561, 1258742, 1280300, 988950, 53808, 448468, 1161870, 1332222, 1161226, 480912, 386956, 503883, 690766, 66162, 919099, 1092057, 1122954, 304524, 171235, 432578, 589186, 1220525, 27391, 73502, 1742620, 912880, 1383967, 120662, 1342098, 1380926, 962970, 1124247, 1657062, 480129, 1056817, 677110, 671610, 1539125, 191861, 589095, 1495052, 1242396, 1095886, 1236092, 126333, 291982, 1254513, 547509, 324196, 1692822, 1675037, 1255807, 1153319, 681176, 1088057, 291994, 1497832, 1429863, 25810, 377099, 412045, 1416557, 1161604, 1724868, 918652, 1440797, 23865, 1202019, 1443360, 179739, 1171260, 1604240, 1413422, 1638090, 1049225, 1209669, 460758, 11039, 120177, 292039, 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HNI_zx2c4	The cipher suite is part of the Noise preamble, so all operations are crytographically bound to the cipher suite to prevent against related-algo attacks. WireGuard itself has no plans for cipher agility, something that is considered an anti-feature. If these ciphers are ever considered problematic, we'll change them and release a new version (with an incremented preamble), and the new set of ciphers will be similarly non-configurable.<p>Fortunately AVX2-accelerated (and soon AVX512-accelerated) ChaPoly is super fast in pretty much all hardware.	1,841,279	[ 1840808 ]	213	[ 1375853, 1426397, 49469, 1759464, 549375, 125807, 1426625, 962810, 568607, 1356841, 1429108, 1261858, 1242330, 786795, 1749468, 130767, 1613680, 292907, 1271081, 1314606, 1784410, 328285, 1083697, 950251, 1242329, 473893, 1429991, 256495, 1429159, 334057, 1357050, 1425967, 120089, 679317, 1659897, 962808, 1279143, 56658, 1662148, 1427805, 149112, 451889, 640797, 786793, 1803828, 1426548, 1427804, 1429536, 1498642, 1430093, 170853, 570905, 547517, 1428288, 33453, 1242127, 1163380, 1245856, 690826, 18164, 1428610, 1428231, 725190, 1713259, 1278555, 737464, 1060130, 200091, 1236758, 1542865, 589311, 1067174, 1429127, 142039, 963368, 1429533, 1253443, 555905, 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HNI_zx2c4	The community's reaction seems absurd to me.<p>For whatever reason, the device only exposes some sort of RAID controller to the OS, and for whatever reason, there's no working option for exposing a more standard AHCI interface instead. The problem is that Linux doesn't (yet) have a driver for that RAID controller.<p>Okay, great. Linux doesn't yet support particular piece of hardware. News at 11.<p>Just like usual, if you want odd hardware to work on Linux, you'll have to write some drivers. That's just how it is. This is nothing new or scandalous. The reasons why Lenovo doesn't support AHCI don't matter. They don't, so now somebody must write a driver for what they do support. Once that happens, nobody will complain anymore. It's that simple. Nothing is being locked with Secure Boot; nothing is being locked with crypto; there is no DRM at play. If you want hardware support, write a driver.<p>As for all the Lenovo-bashing going on here... My personal experience with my new Thinkpad P50 has been overwhelmingly positive. It's working on Gentoo Linux entirely: <a href="https://_URL_0_/wiki/Lenovo_ThinkPad_P50" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/wiki/Lenovo_ThinkPad_P50</a>	1,841,280	[ 1840808, 1840819, 1840853 ]	176	[ 891190, 424355, 366374, 106429, 244563, 1545959, 106401, 193129, 1318463, 1565645, 260422, 1565635, 106403, 1761486, 1565638, 1333809, 106400, 1192087, 1525018, 658062, 1534272, 1318508, 591475, 1113852, 1738425, 1458314, 1419297, 939843, 1032199, 1333812, 725086, 489706, 288575, 270080, 1646894, 209146, 60484, 725189, 914900, 949595, 23475, 260363, 1682557, 1299351, 484768, 1541494, 695676, 432635, 353418, 1541012, 891188, 66380, 102961, 1665272, 1466619, 819027, 294717, 653735, 983775, 407062, 628437, 1237889, 727914, 216046, 335770, 1309272, 495930, 251933, 425063, 1283120, 1142522, 1208553, 4834, 1749263, 1318500, 1508167, 668327, 1397280, 1297700, 1410865, 32702, 1697225, 1384801, 833548, 163687, 259488, 1594595, 826469, 916205, 950279, 1441778, 480956, 620846, 1460832, 1202531, 1689034, 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HNI_zx2c4	> This isn't linux's fault for not supporting some non-standard raid driver, > this is lenovos fault for not allowing users to change the bios settings to non-raid.<p>Lenovo made a computer that exposes hardware to the OS for which Linux does not yet have drivers. They could have exposed a more standard interface, but they didn't. I guess this is their fault, okay. But again, what's the big deal? What's next? You'll be upset when Synaptics releases a new touchpad with a different protocol, for which Linux doesn't yet have a driver? You'll scream and complain, " ;they could have supported the other protocol! they could have unlocked it! it was just a few bits inside the internal SPI flash! " ; Okay. But they didn't. Now write a driver if you want it to work.<p>I'd be upset if they used some kind of crypto secure boot situation to lock down the device. This seems very far from that, however.<p> > Also, just because you are been using a Thinkpad sucessfully > (which is largely been immune from the issues we are talking > about compared to the rest of lenovo line), to use that to > dismiss the very real issues regarding lenovo's recent moves > is disingenuous at best.<p>I didn't mean to dismiss anything except for some comments I've seen in which people said Thinkpads are awful on Linux. Thought I'd chime in to offer a differing experience.	1,841,281	[ 1840808, 1840853, 1840819, 1840824, 1840812, 1840828, 1840815, 1840804, 1840845 ]	254	[ 329856, 1074981, 1012986, 424355, 336420, 1064548, 135019, 216947, 566606, 1015012, 1318705, 352390, 753494, 874440, 1142522, 439432, 164016, 1254091, 1210257, 1565635, 1313119, 163683, 1631595, 1161494, 880510, 1181409, 1099708, 1012987, 1807005, 495932, 1387313, 1834163, 1237890, 568749, 375398, 725086, 923403, 74141, 1666749, 1525018, 1123583, 543666, 336527, 163680, 1665276, 628437, 560869, 1496854, 785240, 583147, 1801114, 1823530, 1123926, 1402405, 1022160, 1642292, 754086, 592914, 163687, 1164125, 1637838, 1235368, 1318704, 457856, 336424, 787323, 15038, 366375, 973869, 622924, 668327, 872086, 23475, 214615, 1526912, 209146, 1466186, 702432, 1318508, 28114, 852385, 560723, 1759051, 1032199, 234915, 1074614, 1031925, 1565638, 1063684, 1334963, 164992, 1780782, 829449, 259488, 868497, 1646894, 925197, 1644981, 541791, 1661831, 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HNI_zx2c4	I'm on my phone right now, and just skimmed that thread for about 10 seconds, but it reminded me of a commit I saw a few days ago when skimming another page for 10 seconds. All that skimming appears to be paying off. Maybe <PERSON> is a skimmer too...<p><a href="https://_URL_0_/chromium/src/+/2962c9c21ab9dd1ebd407f7dcda01c817e4f75da" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/chromium/src/+/2962c9c21ab...</a><p>The original poster appears to be hit by a bug that was fixed by this commit, which is a part of the latest Chromium release. Just a bug that was fixed... no controversy.	1,841,282	[ 1840853 ]	86	[ 1369570, 841292, 164405, 1385979, 118963, 417281, 1804699, 1051334, 115498, 535976, 218901, 1232009, 1638269, 1727706, 1108341, 1756160, 1762121, 898507, 1767878, 778472, 1656012, 180866, 1775659, 1187566, 1751258, 1106022, 643376, 1675805, 545996, 1523124, 1268460, 712173, 949412, 65663, 1084159, 1663180, 1346048, 483695, 1361736, 438571, 1241141, 1726002, 1306653, 1476860, 340596, 1287709, 1122787, 1575069, 1415087, 1772125, 471101, 1693629, 689991, 1714562, 1083741, 1599377, 898510, 1782475, 316255, 1408582, 348054, 1165729, 1820489, 1767880, 212510, 1465969, 330775, 980990, 1295246, 1574153, 330822, 644688, 617132, 1013915, 417282, 321742, 1279840, 1044986, 1642435, 346245, 1173620, 1633775, 1476903, 1278028, 1629892, 1685745, 1814200, 429584, 1711854, 524945, 690856, 1830892, 1390021, 866769, 867034, 549781, 1820488, 59809, 1047610, 535974, 426182, 309400, 1361725, 232083, 548625, 1066335, 417085, 1452995, 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HNI_zx2c4	" ;We then modified the inline encryption block driver to pass this to the hardware. As with ext4 encryption, keys are managed by the Linux keyring. To see our implementation, take a look at the source code for the Pixel kernel. " ;<p>It doesn't sound like they got these changes into mainline. They link here to their source: <a href="https://_URL_0_/kernel/msm/+/android-msm-marlin-3.18-nougat-dr1/fs/ext4/crypto_key.c" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/kernel/msm/+/android-msm-ma...</a><p>From that file:<p><pre><code> /* TODO(mhalcrow): Just for proof-of-concept */ </code></pre> WHOOPS!	1,841,283	[ 1840819, 1840810, 1840812, 1840865, 1840808 ]	176	[ 299883, 458053, 458161, 1566332, 399165, 803201, 931550, 1177440, 419419, 1064412, 501009, 969156, 569017, 1754914, 1409268, 432635, 879083, 1256409, 1177431, 1675965, 1463122, 460591, 914900, 1390027, 1300187, 653734, 1177724, 1711867, 309453, 1638260, 705297, 1566343, 983009, 862969, 193129, 527940, 705278, 799483, 180888, 1631686, 1046959, 655276, 4807, 1309060, 939832, 1178069, 123618, 484092, 288570, 168008, 1349856, 554423, 823809, 1268429, 1470857, 114980, 966070, 1074685, 1508181, 463412, 107895, 1349322, 193157, 288580, 13307, 460858, 1190397, 1532258, 1024191, 288574, 1120547, 1243606, 1177446, 878327, 1749183, 260292, 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HNI_zx2c4	A 128-bit key is more than plenty; don't be ridiculous.<p>The prior partial sha1/md5 implementation usage was pretty dubious.<p>Siphash has significant performance improvements for things like syncookies and secure sequence numbers.<p>Your comment about knowing the address of the key and taking it out of kernel memory... wtf? If you can read arbitrary kernel memory, it's already game over. 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HNI_zx2c4	Sorry but you still haven't substantiated your argument with any such " ;proof " ;.<p>It looks like you also made a " ;prediction " ; about what's going to be decided by people who certainly aren't you in the future.<p>Got a cryptographically secure PRF that's faster than Siphash for small inputs and has undergone extensive cryptanalysis? If so, I'm all ears. If not, get lost, troll.<p>There's a real use case for a secure PRF fast for small inputs. That's why this code has been added.	1,841,285	[ 1840808 ]	213	[ 1255006, 535181, 807361, 1738704, 957785, 1606089, 241735, 241733, 758661, 966095, 937370, 1258921, 1769112, 1769127, 793656, 1406091, 1708572, 241734, 1621052, 1427461, 1465504, 429836, 1246889, 1520432, 1334802, 1255002, 1744237, 1326665, 1294728, 644581, 96861, 693925, 925213, 1498643, 358237, 1396832, 243412, 96296, 860080, 1664412, 332947, 811383, 787139, 1310972, 879016, 152063, 1428521, 203302, 1469682, 1429132, 1405260, 1429853, 1392308, 328402, 564129, 809739, 83000, 1126537, 279851, 1097734, 604870, 552802, 979894, 1384735, 1194255, 1738689, 1659896, 1593445, 1727370, 380204, 403416, 1729191, 248186, 1105209, 336368, 1708574, 1443958, 47511, 1599599, 461230, 136684, 775557, 1078171, 94183, 467923, 1516241, 362114, 1554983, 849420, 1156784, 1020252, 139165, 1075618, 1429783, 59149, 1509490, 380560, 1522480, 691279, 908380, 1411136, 1194630, 912615, 200307, 1498644, 957643, 122204, 472375, 781099, 1266846, 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HNI_zx2c4	The part that really got me was that after I had this terrible impression from reading the source, the developer wrote on the bug report:<p> " ;We have a largely undocumented, untested, and not well-understood code base of about 19 ksloc (C). " ;<p>Oh lord. Then another zinger from the same author:<p> " ;Tox provides some strong security guarantees. We haven't got to the point where we can enumerate them properly, given the general lack of understanding of the code and specification. " ;<p>Stay away!	1,841,286	[ 1840808 ]	243	[ 889318, 1020530, 1700934, 660364, 821126, 174112, 1106949, 1576506, 1286792, 223662, 1463972, 290438, 1614913, 1271637, 962835, 364774, 317658, 1420235, 1698716, 1780518, 1376025, 1009123, 426313, 248168, 560663, 1021880, 1153422, 1052957, 1194601, 1333735, 551257, 214960, 26307, 582268, 1241356, 1717121, 1330346, 1684732, 1123014, 753706, 164443, 1644614, 556812, 1510641, 1806762, 832735, 1557640, 1163046, 385448, 273964, 979498, 126945, 126179, 240245, 1374818, 1513226, 126499, 668611, 407890, 1651689, 1452877, 857008, 342865, 22815, 1694998, 529589, 776353, 969147, 1791400, 551218, 1001280, 59036, 1087530, 1334421, 1469739, 1081365, 506304, 976578, 1042403, 1256289, 717262, 126946, 1404583, 1811547, 82471, 734538, 1807623, 1157405, 1021680, 491732, 1293172, 1117400, 526316, 1386679, 1678400, 1182533, 621409, 1482741, 1662454, 1153986, 896485, 1543261, 166032, 344880, 1519609, 1126132, 1448772, 1009135, 884353, 531539, 665802, 1057516, 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HNI_zx2c4	" ;He says that is impossible and you need B's key to impersonate B when talking to A. " ; Indeed this is what you'd expect out of any secure handshake, right? But that's not the case with the novice Tox one:<p>The handshake depends on forming a shared secret. They do by computing an ECDH, which has the property:<p>ECDH(private A, public B) = ECDH(private B, public A)<p>So, if you control private A, you can form the shared secret that A relies on for verifying anybody else's identity. Reasonable AKEs protect against this; Tox's naive one does not. So, instead of requiring two compromised keys for a man in the middle between one peer pairs (A < -- > B), you only need one compromised key for a man in the middle between infinite key pairs (A < -- > {everybody}).	1,841,287	[ 1840808, 1840819, 1840811, 1840812, 1840861, 1840810 ]	213	[ 336441, 350840, 1261856, 1543179, 1360163, 1692563, 1209185, 1363759, 309244, 1034100, 555991, 1225330, 1546077, 56783, 1226849, 1692560, 1268547, 393328, 127062, 1586981, 173932, 309351, 229082, 328403, 291994, 606268, 1336040, 950403, 1003416, 1404961, 919121, 836203, 309246, 1236911, 397935, 300178, 1395366, 1565425, 614451, 1823253, 279608, 55072, 594536, 195417, 1334763, 1339960, 108392, 535153, 885938, 1692561, 1127890, 1507575, 547474, 1508364, 1132701, 504449, 15083, 823393, 383170, 1429994, 1191786, 309251, 1078651, 580748, 648674, 371570, 601831, 181439, 432473, 900601, 143645, 422179, 1003635, 457541, 1042784, 1724948, 606617, 292011, 963474, 126926, 1021192, 591242, 1278551, 1210420, 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HNI_zx2c4	> Again, I can understand that such a statement incites fear, but saying anything else would be a lie.<p>Thanks for the honesty. It's very much appreciated. I'd hate for somebody to somehow miss critical facts like these, and make a dangerous decision for themselves.<p> > If your intention is to incite rage and hatred<p>What a mystifying insinuation, especially toward somebody who actually took the time to try and write a clear explanation of the vulnerability and what KCI is and how resistance to it is an expectation of any modern AKE, etc. Such subtle jabs and hostility toward well-intentioned bug reporters doesn't inspire much faith.	1,841,288	[ 1840808 ]	158	[ 1727363, 1428635, 1108602, 279512, 1671245, 375177, 1192789, 1384864, 423370, 1616888, 1161476, 1152625, 190173, 1090619, 1240128, 1807349, 957643, 1799495, 1401138, 401613, 1085709, 1254717, 78084, 636135, 467826, 1786242, 1193136, 1105739, 1156893, 1400744, 232345, 536772, 984496, 1180842, 1364811, 1422128, 820571, 1026177, 431635, 157606, 1386373, 350432, 815499, 36127, 624715, 805414, 168875, 1707285, 958477, 488526, 1795812, 1571982, 1207196, 505776, 407380, 1450022, 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HNI_zx2c4	" ;Firstly…lets get something straight., The ‘cleverest’ programmers are not usually ‘hackers’. Firstly, its much easier to break something than build it. You build software with 100,000 lines of code and 1 line has a potential exploit? you did a good job 99,999 times, versus a hacker who finds that one exploit. " ;<p>Having done a fair bit of both over the last two decades, I'm afraid I have to disagree here...<p>Writing good solid code is a skill, gained with focus and experience.<p>Reversing, auditing, exploiting are also on their own difficult skills, gained with focus and experience.<p>Saying one is " ;much easier " ; than the other is to entirely misunderstand either building or hacking or both.	1,841,289	[ 1840808, 1840853, 1840824, 1840845, 1840842, 1840802, 1840861, 1840815, 1840811, 1840865, 1840826 ]	196	[ 681799, 1485258, 1640458, 668699, 200994, 830381, 359784, 679853, 990983, 1683644, 1474852, 1263921, 921288, 1678247, 376184, 1065877, 477582, 1093929, 1503255, 194851, 1557495, 514697, 1470531, 1561152, 1523488, 1190764, 1242844, 1603355, 1122530, 1692364, 1056680, 488552, 406823, 1239077, 1691199, 738734, 777077, 231673, 1780719, 223944, 596923, 1659597, 835303, 1678545, 941801, 202980, 1170409, 629718, 1792042, 1021856, 525556, 720750, 707502, 1431636, 393427, 167237, 1821791, 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HNI_zx2c4	> Second, with all due respect to the original author <PERSON> (who is currently working on the very promising WireGuard project)<p>Indeed I am working on WireGuard. But I haven't forgotten pass. We're currently working on a new release.<p> > the project proved to be a wild bunch of hotwired bash scripts that mostly looked like they were written as a one-off job<p>I very much disagree with this silliness.	1,841,290	[ 1840808 ]	243	[ 403385, 1082392, 953686, 474385, 485287, 1438944, 1749278, 1251783, 1601342, 1082391, 1429201, 486132, 302909, 96036, 395531, 325275, 294865, 511208, 228945, 1430096, 1631511, 448874, 1573341, 1645562, 1357316, 335789, 616458, 13478, 583003, 1618510, 1087339, 377617, 1751346, 234642, 1381887, 1121414, 1130891, 1340569, 657030, 654983, 425366, 327792, 1430098, 1546146, 718213, 790897, 100058, 1592415, 1580180, 3918, 1589211, 1652205, 418632, 1768409, 1467209, 1669986, 275228, 428457, 1555845, 1376247, 1430125, 85695, 1676725, 1634008, 1132392, 1332582, 337749, 288791, 848341, 1347860, 288951, 969019, 1429853, 1575811, 189362, 1488521, 1204640, 500380, 1041851, 322980, 473556, 379407, 899480, 1711260, 1260137, 1331963, 716279, 725190, 292064, 655762, 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HNI_zx2c4	One step is making sure that the crypto isn't bogus. That's what this formal verification is about here.<p>The next step would be writing an implementation in a language that's verifiable -- such as F* [1] -- and then using that to output actually verified binaries. People are indeed working on this kind of thing, to the point where even the primitives are being generated in this way, such as the HACL* and Vale projects [2] [3]. These are in service of making a verified TLS stack. It's nicely modularized and some of this might, at some point in time, be used for a verified WireGuard implementation. Or, alternatively, other unrelated methods for that. These are exciting times in the formal methods space.<p>In any case, this paper is about the first -- and incredibly important -- step of that kind of journey: making sure the crypto constructions WireGuard uses are top notch and actually has the super strong security properties we want it to have.<p>[1] <a href="https://_URL_1_/" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_1_/</a> [2] <a href="https://_URL_0_/mitls/hacl-star" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/mitls/hacl-star</a> [3] <a href="https://_URL_0_/project-everest/vale" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/project-everest/vale</a>	1,841,291	[ 1840808, 1840819 ]	213	[ 1082186, 1809796, 1659903, 290484, 1831132, 1429852, 1278869, 973089, 24503, 718988, 1081471, 604835, 1081495, 330822, 1081467, 1595958, 328401, 854180, 1602998, 96028, 1605258, 1668486, 916330, 1577029, 947117, 1707515, 1082355, 1206932, 1125632, 910868, 1082297, 83320, 1082252, 206729, 741745, 1082193, 1613243, 1082002, 1662424, 1214329, 1639408, 1082240, 1191046, 413485, 778594, 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HNI_zx2c4	I've tested WireGuard against kernel 4.2.8 with success. It should work for the latest of each minor kernel version from 3.10 up to present. (Probably you should <i>not</i> be using 4.2.0 for anything at all, considering the 4.2 branch wasn't even a longterm stable branch and is already quite old and filled with bugs and vulns. But I just tested on 4.2.0 and it worked too with WireGuard.)<p>Yes, WireGuard uses Noise, plus other things. For more information, there's the WireGuard paper [1].<p>[1] <a href="https://_URL_0_/papers/wireguard.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/papers/wireguard.pdf</a>	1,841,292	[ 1840819, 1840808, 1840815, 1840839, 1840803, 1840810, 1840806, 1840802 ]	176	[ 1236758, 833372, 725190, 355949, 1749277, 910918, 403382, 1430125, 1429852, 328401, 910921, 1428911, 709799, 1080550, 1722002, 1080512, 1430091, 292064, 1767775, 876549, 1707524, 1056734, 1429201, 3711, 1080985, 117872, 654983, 368127, 399130, 1082242, 473936, 114942, 510820, 972255, 1309072, 768012, 170853, 1471078, 1606713, 1094749, 655574, 1082355, 1363642, 1438944, 1078224, 1649915, 545932, 1655508, 654982, 1032456, 1430093, 343064, 1764005, 1508247, 1082391, 1091563, 691987, 1679415, 1446373, 1712006, 1488521, 1301258, 464919, 947117, 623114, 1080289, 777643, 1613258, 1082360, 1082146, 947058, 429830, 1749890, 1078892, 1081889, 1524148, 1082392, 1039702, 1079802, 1433966, 1280857, 840674, 572711, 1161292, 596777, 301555, 223840, 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HNI_zx2c4	Sounds like you're using some Frankenstein kernel. But asking for tech support and posting random errors on hacker news comments is nearly always fruitless. You can write to the mailing list [1], or ask in #wireguard on Freenode. We'll be happy to help you there. Alternatively, if you're in a sensitive environment, you can always write directly to team {at] wireguard ^d0t^ com.<p>[1] <a href="https://_URL_0_/mailman/listinfo/wireguard" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/mailman/listinfo/wireguard</a>	1,841,293	[ 1840819 ]	176	[ 833372, 403382, 874285, 799698, 1130516, 1140403, 1222531, 355949, 1591146, 1244402, 326575, 639579, 1236758, 910918, 1834742, 944672, 771935, 876554, 885261, 1163331, 1604160, 910936, 1737157, 1074247, 414458, 351313, 1239539, 1636003, 1093572, 1134616, 736596, 1367774, 1068334, 1776666, 725190, 342865, 1604049, 1635812, 150988, 910935, 131510, 957779, 215522, 1635814, 910921, 131479, 1026324, 1672764, 329506, 1281744, 957782, 131508, 1256468, 275543, 994854, 1612035, 799208, 515345, 1466004, 1798818, 1573641, 1406832, 1715159, 838209, 1798179, 1362954, 131504, 1715111, 1703594, 59272, 1637955, 1726780, 1367874, 1611646, 1736640, 1635805, 1582589, 966109, 1617597, 1629198, 1304445, 1785580, 1557540, 1757395, 131514, 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HNI_zx2c4	Probably the spthy code isn't the best as a reference for building an implementation. For that I'd recommend:<p><a href="https://_URL_0_/papers/wireguard.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/papers/wireguard.pdf</a><p><a href="https://_URL_0_/protocol/" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/protocol/</a><p><a href="http://_URL_2_/noise.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://_URL_2_/noise.pdf</a><p>However, if you actually read the <PERSON> manual -- the documentation is really terrific -- I think you'll find that the spthy code quickly comes into focus as something very straight-forward.<p><a href="https://_URL_1_/manual/book/001_introduction.html" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_1_/manual/book/001_introductio...</a><p>So much so, in fact, that I'd really recommend fluency with something like Tamarin as an essential thing for anybody working on crypto things, even if they're not in academia. It should be accessible to folks who describe themselves as " ;crypto engineers. " ; Next time you find yourself having to work on or analyze a custom crypto protocol, give it a shot.	1,841,294	[ 1840808 ]	213	[ 1363642, 1078777, 1045546, 887819, 510820, 1305124, 733752, 833372, 790033, 1082146, 1513391, 789595, 717321, 1575074, 1691311, 1151135, 1236758, 1660723, 1279175, 1507655, 1378474, 1630970, 594418, 1612895, 1815729, 638466, 1630929, 428228, 368626, 1078892, 1082360, 649965, 572711, 510938, 1078121, 596777, 1565555, 1668072, 898255, 330683, 274173, 333855, 1079335, 808639, 1079610, 1672650, 1718180, 622787, 612531, 1044520, 1081889, 70085, 1712023, 1288322, 1082242, 1097474, 1056734, 746993, 86521, 910779, 1091675, 1082174, 733180, 85608, 1202473, 1082178, 301555, 1694249, 1605029, 1044184, 1813205, 612472, 1776511, 573516, 281923, 99124, 1766874, 1759863, 1755379, 294530, 1081940, 1080647, 1067071, 443929, 1637995, 1591575, 308139, 1813950, 1467241, 368127, 1207351, 1078032, 1818289, 381678, 1084413, 1080988, 1091368, 1563328, 111825, 1574631, 117629, 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HNI_zx2c4	I've been experimenting with this exact kind of network setup -- open WiFi that only allows packets to and from the WireGuard endpoint. The nice part is that it means I just have WireGuard on all the time, and because it roams, when I connect to a different WiFi networks, I remain on my home network automatically. I've also been putting my actual wlan0 interface in a separate namespace, isolated from real things. This way there's no chance of leaking data: <a href="https://_URL_0_/netns/#the-new-namespace-solution" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/netns/#the-new-namespace-solution</a>	1,841,295	[ 1840819, 1840806, 1840810, 1840839, 1840808, 1840812, 1840815, 1840831 ]	2	[ 1478950, 910918, 435781, 1601661, 435809, 690161, 1388663, 149084, 910921, 505334, 1281266, 1089905, 691096, 504129, 1082933, 577682, 1482790, 1429852, 1667295, 328401, 1603928, 655621, 709799, 1763898, 790627, 223970, 375715, 1170275, 1784166, 772583, 773151, 1767775, 3711, 1835022, 1540756, 638028, 744699, 61969, 465214, 741686, 813474, 1216822, 1585665, 435766, 155331, 995685, 208849, 495106, 448272, 722040, 61370, 374004, 1673837, 1776672, 1423885, 406532, 1778077, 1307361, 465070, 1374348, 936372, 1794121, 1728144, 565618, 966070, 528504, 1042606, 1409670, 16287, 1749277, 449231, 1694123, 1218491, 354988, 612725, 230665, 123559, 1118729, 1585262, 1444296, 1011691, 307666, 1798813, 1432867, 612735, 1712417, 1346512, 504036, 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HNI_zx2c4	bcachefs seems especially exciting because the built-in crypto uses authenticated encryption in the form of ChaCha20Poly1305. Most disk encryption operates in an unauthenticated mode (such as XTS) which means the ciphertext is malleable on disk. This makes it's useful only for the case of your laptop getting stolen out of your car in the parking lot while turned off, but not for many more complicated scenarios (like trusting the data once the police recover your stolen laptop). With authenticated encryption, you're able to guarantee the authenticity and integrity of your files, in addition to encrypting them. Really great. The authentication tag naturally, then, doubles as what ZFS people refer to as their " ;checksums " ;. I'm watching bcachefs closely to see how it matures.<p><a href="http://_URL_0_/Encryption/" rel="nofollow">http://_URL_0_/Encryption/</a>	1,841,296	[ 1840819, 1840808 ]	194	[ 535198, 56751, 1425836, 20616, 208906, 1496630, 1086498, 207944, 608141, 671929, 763902, 393957, 741720, 1486573, 1693373, 1011708, 248976, 594828, 1153444, 1273146, 1639008, 1153970, 194127, 504208, 1435495, 1119383, 1623925, 945329, 1005128, 1639017, 1782126, 230368, 607725, 1750824, 839348, 1429127, 655231, 1639009, 13456, 1369591, 336367, 1096502, 1234750, 77823, 543467, 1426294, 1765853, 1225408, 606556, 56799, 1805990, 845760, 1649716, 885192, 841067, 1769114, 13455, 957542, 1204040, 1138323, 1822654, 1425708, 1785943, 950401, 1279808, 1100643, 1152486, 110055, 208913, 972385, 1719204, 1234748, 1752542, 56752, 1644249, 744717, 670236, 1134967, 1096795, 1582605, 677802, 885457, 1810100, 1185252, 393799, 902867, 1310554, 56665, 535150, 594252, 1597596, 111848, 1116714, 556187, 1795559, 301904, 92757, 340216, 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HNI_zx2c4	What a bunch of senseless FUD.<p>WireGuard is based on the Noise Protocol Framework [1], designed by the same fella as the Signal Protocol, and already used in production by millions of devices all around the world inside of WhatsApp. Not only that, but we have a formal verification [2] that the crypto is correct in the symbolic model. The WireGuard paper itself [3] was presented to the academic community at NDSS [4]. It's most certainly not the hastily-made nonsense you imply it is with the phrase " ;rolled our own crypto " ;.<p>Meanwhile your project, " ;subnet " ;, tunnels TCP over TCP, which is well known for having pathologically bad performance characteristics [5]. It also has no binding between certificates and the IP addresses that a certificate is allowed to be inside the tunnel, and, unless I've misread, it allows different peers to hijack each others' IP addresses simply by asking [6].<p>There's a lot of work that goes into doing tunneling well. I encourage your effort to make a fun toy project; it's a great learning opportunity. But please don't spread FUD about other projects without first understanding them.<p>[1] <a href="https://_URL_0_" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_</a><p>[2] <a href="https://_URL_1_/formal-verification/" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_1_/formal-verification/</a><p>[3] <a href="https://_URL_1_/papers/wireguard.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_1_/papers/wireguard.pdf</a><p>[4] <a href="https://_URL_4_/ndss2017/" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_4_/ndss2017/</a><p>[5] <a href="https://_URL_2_/search?q=tcp+over+tcp" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_2_/search?q=tcp+over+tcp</a><p>[6] <a href="https://_URL_3_/twitchyliquid64/subnet/blob/50fc8fe2b6ccf72a1f34e756d843238ab9b42312/src/subnet/server.go#L132" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_3_/twitchyliquid64/subnet/blob/50fc8fe2b6ccf...</a>	1,841,297	[ 1840808, 1840819 ]	213	[ 1637995, 833372, 1378474, 1161292, 1002506, 59334, 1079335, 929820, 1602998, 1082242, 738943, 1126534, 436612, 1675173, 629666, 1817444, 769461, 1701002, 995980, 1836286, 875824, 1533990, 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HNI_zx2c4	This is a plug for my stuff, but a relevant plug nonetheless:<p>If you think you need a VPN, you probably need a good VPN protocol to go with it. Rather than using outdated legacy cruft like OpenVPN or IPsec, you might like WireGuard:<p><a href="https://_URL_0_/" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/</a><p>It's still in the early days, but the protocol is formally verified, the overall design has received academic review, the Linux implementation is maturing quite rapidly, and we'll soon have Mac and Windows clients available. Part of the WireGuard Protocol uses the Noise Protocol Framework from <PERSON>, of Signal Protocol fame.	1,841,298	[ 1840819, 1840808 ]	2	[ 1430125, 1429852, 1430091, 56632, 1094749, 1741286, 1438944, 1082391, 732336, 1807486, 1083928, 725190, 1164490, 1456443, 679506, 328401, 638427, 778878, 420072, 778879, 148918, 1106031, 29193, 22746, 1705033, 1822286, 1081115, 1429694, 604869, 1029273, 1139730, 1482722, 29214, 864581, 641070, 563214, 1749526, 866609, 732332, 1740841, 1621951, 282683, 1430096, 1428305, 1430095, 954643, 1083456, 1410845, 549164, 1490740, 718212, 864420, 91156, 1427937, 415828, 971624, 1466260, 59334, 1741289, 173098, 833372, 1807482, 654982, 1314421, 1486994, 1638905, 638484, 15056, 1466259, 1295007, 457964, 778880, 614478, 622575, 1749277, 1429201, 1649603, 1513377, 385875, 355949, 1509265, 1429855, 1474241, 1673001, 1625241, 885626, 1615116, 894427, 1758427, 852425, 458108, 1374352, 1073885, 1420565, 88039, 1221971, 1746986, 180876, 1236758, 1683570, 140677, 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HNI_zx2c4	Thanks for the feedback. Indeed there are the wg(8) and wg-quick(8) man pages, and probably you should read the whole _front page_ of _URL_1_, namely this part -- <a href="https://_URL_0_/#conceptual-overview" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/#conceptual-overview</a> -- which gives some important conceptual overviews to learn what's going on. Probably if you don't have the conceptual overview in mind, the quickstart won't make much sense; this may indeed be a fault in the writing presumptions of the quickstart.<p>The side-by-side video puts this -- <a href="https://_URL_0_/talks/talk-demo-screencast.mp4" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/talks/talk-demo-screencast.mp4</a> -- in a < video > tag. I'm a kernel developer, not a web developer, so if you have a suggestion on how to fix it in your browser, I'm all ears.<p>With all that said, we probably should rewrite the quickstart page to be a little more intuitive and " ;quicker " ;, so that people can get an idea of what to do without having to understand or think about anything... Maybe a better approach for that might be: " ;Here's what you do on one side. Here's what you do on the other side. " ;<p>In any case, I guarantee that learning WireGuard is faster and simpler than learning StrongSwan or any IPsec things.<p>After the Netdev conference, which is next week, I'll allocate some time to improving documentation. Thanks for the feedback here, and sorry for the frustration.	1,841,299	null	2	[ 290891, 1593737, 1736454, 3711, 1693456, 833372, 783187, 1592730, 1122335, 783199, 1729630, 496015, 305354, 1672788, 1593943, 41013, 910921, 1593064, 1753662, 112322, 769137, 1259444, 675131, 1460690, 655111, 1067061, 1746208, 709799, 443108, 462285, 1637952, 1591828, 558895, 1637886, 1484261, 1755474, 1244069, 924783, 252000, 424189, 1703594, 578285, 1785127, 1601832, 1804325, 1078588, 1802108, 530097, 783133, 867522, 473167, 1766255, 1797640, 321436, 1716264, 1602466, 789973, 1249149, 1010924, 1084052, 312997, 1241004, 1617901, 29213, 737961, 1595355, 1528945, 1762855, 1275864, 1574630, 656984, 1743933, 1275942, 1706546, 894496, 1332508, 442907, 241246, 1026144, 424215, 1634989, 1760773, 77976, 1835020, 252025, 1618613, 535079, 1775687, 1045320, 1624964, 293618, 1348861, 1645940, 1578012, 1630261, 647882, 1093481, 895525, 704524, 1265735, 1679031, 1836786, 783198, 702401, 939376, 835716, 1309886, 947117, 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HNI_zx2c4	Greg KH, some others, and I had a great session stepping through every line of the codebase yesterday. Even though the codebase is quite small -- under 4k LoC -- studying some of the related topics is kind of like a fractal...<p>Happy to answer any questions you all might have about WireGuard. We're in #wireguard on Freenode, too, if you need help with things in real-ish time. I'm also mailing out free stickers to anybody who wants some: <a href="https://_URL_0_/pipermail/wireguard/2017-May/001338.html" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/pipermail/wireguard/2017-May/001338....</a> -- just email <EMAIL_ADDRESS><PERSON>, some others, and I had a great session stepping through every line of the codebase yesterday. Even though the codebase is quite small -- under 4k LoC -- studying some of the related topics is kind of like a fractal...<p>Happy to answer any questions you all might have about WireGuard. We're in #wireguard on Freenode, too, if you need help with things in real-ish time. I'm also mailing out free stickers to anybody who wants some: <a href="https://_URL_0_/pipermail/wireguard/2017-May/001338.html" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/pipermail/wireguard/2017-May/001338....</a> -- just email [email protected] and I'll throw them in an envelope.	1,841,300	null	147	[ 833372, 355949, 910918, 403382, 1236758, 1295866, 1160831, 968335, 889003, 402836, 117652, 725190, 1692823, 517780, 1711543, 267485, 982605, 148869, 612510, 221729, 939908, 735704, 1141907, 979699, 1268546, 215522, 768685, 1085034, 1015844, 530423, 263464, 1240454, 1135871, 1735878, 1640291, 1303739, 1085102, 1455760, 1046804, 1698522, 1029120, 1311191, 1306182, 754354, 599504, 1497879, 277434, 1293270, 1249180, 1335523, 560070, 1606526, 910921, 910936, 277432, 1091101, 1711541, 874243, 1046945, 482885, 1611196, 1767224, 1530699, 1830455, 1082231, 1701270, 2043, 1797672, 1045063, 292069, 336451, 810439, 82161, 1232031, 833451, 452409, 898480, 859401, 326381, 982168, 1757184, 479330, 1715567, 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HNI_zx2c4	The OpenVPN Windows kernel TUN/TAP driver is really super scary. That alone has a larger code base than all of WireGuard...<p>At the moment, the efforts around the cross-platform userspace-based WireGuard implementations have focused on targeting that TUN/TAP driver, which is pretty ugly business. But thanks very much for pointing me toward this more general purpose API.<p>It might wind up being _easier_ to use this than having to talk to terrible OpenVPN kernel drivers. I'll investigate this thoroughly.<p>By the way, if you're into Windows programming and want to help out, don't hesitate to email <EMAIL_ADDRESS>.	1,841,301	[ 1840819 ]	2	[ 292064, 594893, 1430125, 1082391, 1236353, 1208939, 654982, 1427703, 1430091, 343064, 842644, 1404844, 725190, 1430094, 1652205, 1466260, 1429201, 1402405, 1541494, 1466259, 1438944, 1487705, 1636609, 1064548, 1422553, 1616962, 1111257, 1221139, 23475, 1512217, 217301, 1378036, 420072, 1208356, 1226812, 674879, 1092162, 1022160, 914900, 912566, 644374, 267042, 1243606, 891688, 6601, 403382, 569140, 1015012, 210346, 1430093, 460792, 1099708, 336420, 1488521, 549445, 449737, 1247480, 1430095, 1608076, 322275, 1059226, 690234, 1429853, 1561395, 241700, 1190873, 785294, 1594873, 1508116, 193157, 910921, 1428735, 1324657, 876572, 1075730, 332117, 501904, 908168, 1504115, 912635, 1015312, 1429852, 761100, 214905, 544399, 1504594, 895989, 130632, 864581, 1366815, 1303351, 1551183, 1000498, 1204843, 251927, 802239, 1607767, 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HNI_zx2c4	> he was able to work with the driver from managed (C#) code without actually modifying the driver source at all<p>Yea, I wouldn't need to (or want to) modify the source, and using the actual driver from userspace isn't that bad. Also, having a pre-signed win32k driver is a nice thing that I wouldn't want to give up. My motivation is mainly to avoid using it all together, if possible, which is I think what the API you linked to prior will allow.<p>So the UWP API looks like the right way forward. I wonder if we could launch it as Win 10+ without too many complaints. Nobody is really using 8/8.1, but there are of course corporate Win7 holdouts.<p> > Do you have a public issue tracker? Or is it mostly IRC and mailing lists?<p>There's _URL_0_/todo/ but it hasn't been populated with the particular TODOs for the userspace stuff. But if you send me an email or come into the IRC, I can fill you in at the optimal time when it seems like _the one thing remaining_ is just to fill in some platform-specific stubs for win32. If that's appealing to you, of course.	1,841,302	[ 1840819 ]	112	[ 1015312, 1161608, 912566, 207765, 1605892, 1305439, 646096, 1562002, 832090, 1382299, 161787, 1299267, 976515, 1363743, 336420, 363526, 1109581, 368602, 1259659, 1571676, 141033, 815216, 1359288, 662837, 1190771, 817164, 28591, 678540, 800010, 1087159, 569399, 989445, 895989, 712614, 1445434, 1306307, 62369, 864581, 1407294, 83075, 1051848, 912645, 215097, 353413, 162351, 1609118, 1254037, 147258, 989247, 377244, 1773367, 1024587, 1020971, 1243606, 462617, 692816, 132284, 1700897, 241700, 458854, 889084, 24501, 1516195, 1194644, 377242, 1240712, 1224180, 377243, 504203, 1448387, 518014, 1659575, 1293049, 798874, 1613493, 1742273, 121920, 264744, 1791785, 691050, 1758950, 881588, 592927, 1135377, 1263695, 1356548, 1559559, 353418, 1352876, 416625, 862716, 92116, 1624395, 1575891, 1145106, 324090, 420382, 260422, 878327, 935748, 692414, 362411, 451544, 617910, 397277, 473549, 1121864, 1218962, 881667, 460348, 1161301, 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HNI_zx2c4	WireGuard enforces a very strict mapping between public keys and IP addresses, so you can't have two public keys with the same internal tunnelled IP address ( " ;AllowedIPs " ;). This way you can have rules like " ;if it comes from the WireGuard interface and it's from 10.8.3.9, then it must be from public key ABCD, " ; which make firewalling and ACLs and the general security posture a lot more straightforward.<p>In your case, it sounds like you want to change the AllowedIPs from one peer to the other based on some kind of metric you have for determining disruption. In this case, you can do that switch at runtime:<p><pre><code> $ wg set wg0 peer ABCD allowed-ips <IP_ADDRESS>/0 </code></pre> or<p><pre><code> $ wg set wg0 peer EFG9 allowed-ips <IP_ADDRESS><IP_ADDRESS>, then it must be from public key ABCD, " ; which make firewalling and ACLs and the general security posture a lot more straightforward.<p>In your case, it sounds like you want to change the AllowedIPs from one peer to the other based on some kind of metric you have for determining disruption. In this case, you can do that switch at runtime:<p><pre><code> $ wg set wg0 peer ABCD allowed-ips 0.0.0.0/0 </code></pre> or<p><pre><code> $ wg set wg0 peer EFG9 allowed-ips 0.0.0.0/0 </code></pre> Alternatively, if you wish to determine this disruption situation using traditional routing daemons, that set actual routes, as opposed to WireGuard AllowedIPs, then you could just have two separate WireGuard interfaces, and leave it to your routing daemon to decide which one to use.	1,841,303	[ 1840808, 1840819, 1840810, 1840812, 1840806, 1840831, 1840839, 1840821, 1840817, 1840811, 1840820, 1840802, 1840815, 1840865, 1840830, 1840832, 1840858, 1840861 ]	2	[ 3711, 1649413, 965887, 597614, 1803751, 1161870, 446026, 1529489, 910921, 558895, 1427378, 341, 1133691, 643151, 1489610, 1723379, 1488071, 606166, 437607, 333665, 1334763, 809485, 1447245, 327792, 1595414, 425395, 877560, 778318, 473936, 1016118, 1438944, 988089, 537675, 537715, 56641, 1613909, 809516, 1430317, 350403, 691837, 321961, 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HNI_zx2c4	> I did a vuejs/html5 web interface for wireguard recently and found it delightful to work with.<p>Sounds cool. Care to share? I'd love to see people's usage.<p> > - there is no option to specify listener ip+port tuples<p>WireGuard listens on all interfaces, because packets themselves are authenticated cryptographically. If a packet makes it to your system and the authtag is validated, it doesn't matter through what interface it arrived; it's legit. WireGuard also is able to reply using the destination address and interface of the incoming packet as the source address and interface of the outgoing packet, which is the other common usage of binding to particular IP addresses.<p> > - logical sub-interfaces work fine, unless they happen to emit a vlan tag<p>WireGuard is layer 3 -- IP -- not Ethernet, which is how I believe tunnels should be made. Instead of vlans, just add more tunnels if you need.<p> > - almost every virtual ethernet device in the kernel calls eth_hw_addr_random(dev);<p>WireGuard isn't Ethernet; it's IP. It doesn't use MAC addresses. It has public keys instead.<p> > - " ;allowed-ips " ; cannot be turned off;<p>Yes: the crypto key routing is the central idea of WireGuard. You establish a strong binding between public key and internal tunneled IP address, and then all your rules and policies on top of that suddenly become quite simple.<p> > - when one " ;allowed-ips " ; setting is added to a peer, wg may silently remove " ;allowed-ips " ; on another, unrelated peer<p>Peers can't share internal tunneled IP addresses; otherwise, there wouldn't be strong binding to public keys, nor efficiency of sending outbound packets. So if you assign an already assigned one to another peer, the presumption is that you want to _move_ the allowed IP. By always going with the newer future demand, and not erroring and staying with the old one, we ensure forward progress on your overall changes to policy. IOW, if you're changing things, we want the state to look like what you're changing it to.<p>If you have any additional questions at this level (a great level, thanks for those), a better place to discuss is probably #wireguard on Freenode, or the mailing list -- <a href="https://_URL_0_/mailman/listinfo/wireguard" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/mailman/listinfo/wireguard</a>	1,841,304	[ 1840819, 1840810 ]	2	[ 1161870, 910921, 656903, 597614, 1627448, 1649413, 355949, 3711, 833284, 1803751, 1153559, 1373492, 1438944, 736596, 1154206, 1538806, 560338, 22746, 1538525, 1236758, 725190, 1513387, 551611, 1413542, 1666429, 910918, 755669, 833372, 692238, 1413833, 66872, 315423, 1413598, 203310, 163566, 699497, 1489792, 879642, 501517, 403382, 7383, 1254150, 1153352, 1539083, 1269553, 1413422, 1740269, 1171182, 255083, 1487062, 739441, 691996, 473556, 1488521, 755670, 1154279, 1379476, 53808, 1627442, 1154264, 1739550, 1539118, 1549280, 777303, 353342, 1524429, 341, 1207328, 1787540, 1306670, 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HNI_zx2c4	> Yeah for sure. Here are some screenshots:<p>Looks real nice. Any plans to open source that?<p> > Yeah but you try telling the person administering the combined firewall/vpn/router box that his/her firewall rules are no longer in control of what traffic is allowed in or not.<p>No, this is not correct. All iptables/nftables/netfilter rules apply. My comment was strictly related to the fact that it listens on <IP_ADDRESS>, but you're still in full control of all firewalling in every way.<p> > stuff listening on <IP_ADDRESS>/0 and <IP_ADDRESS>/0 is unaffected by the forwarding flag<p>Either I don't understand what you've written, or this is complete nonsense. This doesn't correspond with anything real I can fathom. Probably it'd be easiest to just poke us in #wireguard on Freenode, and we can try to figure out together whatever behavior you're seeing. In addition to me being in there to discuss WireGuard-related things, there are some nftables experts there too, who will probably have insights into your firewall configuration.<p> > is in fact a virtual ethernet device, in kernel-speak.<p>It's actually not an ethernet device. In " ;kernel-speak " ; it's a net_device with hard_header_len = addr_len = 0, instantiable via rtnl.<p> > When the device then drops L2 frames<p>All L3 devices reject L2 frames. There are quite a few L3 devices, in fact, not just WireGuard.	1,841,305	[ 1840819, 1840808 ]	2	[ 255083, 330001, 691104, 330192, 910844, 630828, 1727132, 597140, 1360579, 1268558, 327206, 755669, 454927, 218000, 1720624, 695860, 1674711, 1161870, 258441, 755670, 1539119, 1545810, 1465346, 847044, 1451074, 336392, 1627448, 152587, 847045, 80530, 1729300, 328401, 1539143, 936984, 37106, 474250, 32969, 1600715, 1373443, 800823, 465214, 1729299, 882161, 644611, 1228509, 1729298, 1138566, 246651, 64683, 1153139, 771409, 1171021, 1099659, 1695818, 636728, 560338, 1539138, 29966, 218002, 703834, 378195, 4859, 1539118, 1119110, 1200392, 504036, 1465348, 1650599, 589561, 1140323, 1287531, 738036, 255032, 295791, 833527, 292227, 1539114, 327784, 686872, 596159, 1431548, 1010684, 761198, 1618634, 691050, 1462312, 1539117, 1236298, 1154080, 1504478, 1153559, 1264174, 560899, 1350609, 1143216, 816866, 1727857, 374125, 1248564, 935872, 1154033, 1768847, 606323, 217542, 1539140, 504069, 246631, 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HNI_zx2c4	Nice to hear there's some hope... I managed to get some small grants and donations and things for WireGuard over part of this last year -- <a href="https://_URL_0_/donations/" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/donations/</a> -- but I don't have much lined up for next year, and I'm hoping I can figure it out in time to do WireGuard things full time. The thing is just getting funding lined up for [part of] this last year was a pretty time consuming hustle, and I'd rather spend that time writing code. This leads me to think I should find somebody to handle " ;fund raising " ; or " ;community mumblemumble " ; or something, but as WireGuard is a security-oriented project, communicating correctly is important, and I could imagine that somehow backfiring. The other thing is that I'd feel really uncomfortable putting up one of those thermometer overlays on the _URL_1_ website; just adding the " ;donate " ; link in the corner was a bit much for me. So, hm. Nice to see the Webpack guys figure it out. Maybe I'll take some clues from there.	1,841,306	null	105	[ 1429852, 202860, 1430091, 1804509, 725190, 737834, 1045121, 1074311, 1550342, 1609631, 393651, 1368776, 910918, 606871, 701395, 125399, 159375, 1735007, 956843, 1265552, 808967, 1612635, 888880, 504189, 1735009, 1605086, 876549, 169809, 328401, 25729, 277597, 443210, 629630, 1666432, 1706559, 1671023, 1026144, 830552, 1781559, 651913, 1206717, 237166, 1759516, 561539, 1767775, 918153, 268304, 1092953, 1506177, 1000113, 280950, 1702095, 1170670, 1278899, 1139805, 1706098, 919669, 463144, 1041277, 1528855, 1589713, 572976, 271695, 1226476, 14705, 216635, 895231, 574142, 969020, 1599591, 1827236, 607098, 1109856, 958637, 309229, 1780793, 928032, 192298, 1359507, 193022, 1706767, 1165213, 482078, 842132, 1660184, 853402, 1825585, 1429201, 179966, 851307, 1750865, 953978, 1296944, 1107185, 1704271, 1126865, 1056369, 1667661, 1438944, 1623511, 355949, 1718262, 482565, 403382, 197023, 306569, 829491, 73925, 1577304, 852041, 948512, 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HNI_zx2c4	I wrote the email that prompted this quite civil response. I'm very pleased with the outcome, because I think this clear statement of his position is a lot more useful for people to work with, rather than just assuming <PERSON> hates security or something.<p>I interpreted his response in practical terms as essentially being the following. Patch set merge 1 has " ;report " ; as default and " ;kill " ; as a non-default option. Patch set merge 2 has " ;kill " ; as default and " ;report " ; as a non-default option. Patch set merge 3 removes support for " ;report " ;. This way we have the best of both worlds: we eventually reach the thing that actually adds real security benefit, which makes security folks happy. And we don't break everybody's computers immediately, allowing time for the more obvious bugs to surface via " ;report " ;, which makes users and developers happy. Seems like a reasonable process to me.	1,841,307	[ 1840808 ]	158	[ 998758, 407815, 1709429, 508125, 1386230, 919955, 833275, 1112682, 1155255, 49537, 95899, 403407, 473694, 246453, 475749, 174239, 1637201, 1170650, 1331816, 476364, 1752138, 269184, 1143312, 504507, 309480, 939817, 1469580, 478067, 890813, 789238, 737320, 1441517, 800072, 24594, 1240982, 66929, 1059346, 1254281, 955086, 1298951, 129465, 835632, 366305, 219107, 1316981, 313204, 1529559, 1161401, 937005, 695066, 219082, 552365, 458126, 442202, 599423, 1782904, 1302138, 350386, 320550, 1360553, 1268585, 839362, 1429451, 1234724, 1833004, 1316022, 166096, 868417, 1024823, 43585, 253767, 747102, 1788610, 329821, 617815, 824394, 1171191, 1313964, 852248, 124921, 832929, 596692, 432682, 1163336, 849420, 1820522, 770190, 1689623, 654863, 1389980, 175305, 1218309, 13895, 1600669, 1001891, 242985, 29291, 952861, 193132, 241177, 520933, 318430, 1181865, 143817, 607278, 1442123, 853177, 1113901, 1154483, 1687237, 448369, 307309, 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HNI_zx2c4	This is why I don't run any Electron apps on my computers at all, ever.<p>That means I'm stuck with the web browser version of Slack, Skype, Signal (going away), and so forth, which is a shame. But it's better than the security nightmare that is Electron.<p>I wish developers wanting to make cross platform GUI applications would look instead at Qt. It's extremely easy to use, really fast, and generates great GUIs. It's been around for ages and continually sees updates. Usually people who see the Qt light are pretty satisfied. It can also be used from a wide variety of languages, in case you're not into writing C++.<p>I sort of suspect that Electron's popularity is due to it being accessible to the hordes of JavaScript developers who otherwise wouldn't have had any clue how to make desktop/native applications. However, do I really want to be running unsandboxed xss== > rce code written by clueless devs? No, no I do not. So, in the end, refusing to run Electron apps turns out to be a somewhat reasonable security posture.	1,841,308	[ 1840853 ]	179	[ 1467957, 517964, 651021, 1320458, 228985, 1295674, 1191548, 518096, 1196883, 1712661, 40997, 1303466, 817111, 459146, 1282467, 1282484, 328381, 1590347, 1837703, 249203, 608154, 250344, 937940, 1357044, 988457, 459147, 727316, 562592, 214426, 886566, 1340309, 106527, 1454753, 1172515, 654128, 1286991, 1190827, 1596713, 1802657, 1545995, 1131551, 1010940, 421809, 1806430, 594742, 651243, 1456342, 143066, 1548223, 1163556, 1010943, 355322, 1525409, 108648, 1431896, 1137058, 117281, 1162126, 1086258, 817110, 1031132, 1777722, 1671894, 916452, 126887, 1344469, 820670, 459138, 1504599, 441442, 1742434, 785344, 283684, 78267, 892358, 578576, 600803, 472813, 543429, 240971, 14531, 249202, 451989, 933569, 1342648, 31934, 1287542, 1064521, 1086268, 1490680, 1758671, 1351751, 518082, 202674, 326264, 1170927, 1245294, 727204, 1558426, 135409, 31853, 1505601, 933570, 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HNI_zx2c4	Oh, wow, I didn't expect anybody to post this to a high volume site. The Android work is in some intense alpha-development state right now, but things are coming along nicely. If anybody wants to contribute to the efforts, please don't hesitate to get in touch -- <EMAIL_ADDRESS>.<p>If you don't know what WireGuard is, it's a next generation secure network tunnel: <a href="https://_URL_0_" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_</a> . The protocol has been formally verified in the symbolic model and the original whitepaper was published at NDSS this year: <a href="https://_URL_0_/papers/wireguard.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/papers/wireguard.pdf</a><p>I'm mailing out stickers to everybody who asks: <a href="https://_URL_1_/pipermail/wireguard/2017-May/001338.html" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_1_/pipermail/wireguard/2017-May/001338....</a>	1,841,309	null	174	[ 833372, 1236758, 355949, 910918, 403382, 725190, 1015844, 898255, 612472, 612510, 1128986, 968335, 1295866, 117652, 338577, 1268546, 1085102, 982605, 326381, 1363642, 1082146, 1813205, 1531898, 1613243, 993509, 1206892, 221729, 346810, 1211475, 301555, 1079610, 1691311, 914850, 1020628, 1141907, 1046804, 979699, 1495926, 599504, 1813860, 898280, 754354, 1602998, 910936, 754956, 939908, 501980, 1293270, 1085034, 1755379, 666916, 612531, 1082242, 263464, 572711, 515135, 577909, 1550372, 1378474, 939501, 99124, 1423066, 1279175, 894427, 874243, 1078121, 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HNI_zx2c4	Happy to answer any questions about the project in general.<p>For people interested in what WireGuard actually is, the best resources are the homepage and the whitepaper:<p><a href="https://_URL_0_/" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/</a><p><a href="https://_URL_0_/papers/wireguard.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/papers/wireguard.pdf</a><p>Also, I'm mailing out stickers just for fun: <a href="https://_URL_1_/pipermail/wireguard/2017-May/001338.html" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_1_/pipermail/wireguard/2017-May/001338....</a><p>The forum post on XDA is intended for ROM developers who would like to include the kernel module. Rest assured, we're now working on an app in the various app stores that will work on all Android (and iOS!) devices, without need for the kernel module or a custom ROM or anything like that. But the mobile kernel aspects are important and interesting, which is why we're pursuing these different but related efforts in parallel via XDA.	1,841,310	[ 1840819 ]	229	[ 833372, 355949, 1236758, 910918, 950789, 403382, 1081889, 964652, 612472, 1177440, 1178069, 725190, 1015844, 117652, 899327, 898255, 968335, 1813205, 1240454, 1161292, 215522, 1295866, 221729, 1133949, 1384757, 982605, 1612895, 603869, 914850, 810439, 612510, 1304658, 1778136, 510820, 1602998, 1256468, 432672, 96899, 1692150, 1675730, 1046804, 1082242, 326381, 1268546, 1085102, 1020628, 1363642, 898280, 786942, 1177446, 99124, 1571478, 1531898, 301555, 1565580, 929804, 1741248, 1600193, 1508247, 1361487, 1495926, 318348, 1128986, 979699, 1732100, 338577, 929701, 1268612, 1211475, 1479186, 754990, 594418, 1637995, 667147, 1433966, 1059738, 910936, 1749277, 841005, 1080124, 993509, 277562, 1330717, 1618849, 1771579, 1299432, 876574, 939966, 1297554, 1581225, 1243763, 1082004, 1637636, 732252, 889003, 1169822, 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HNI_zx2c4	Of interest regarding this might be: <a href="https://_URL_2_/InstLatX64/status/934093081514831872" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_2_/InstLatX64/status/934093081514831872</a><p> > The sad thing is there is no CPUID flag to distinguish good AVX512 from useless AVX512.<p>You can read the the avx512_2ndFMA bit from the PIROM, according to this Intel datasheet: <a href="https://_URL_0_/content/www/us/en/processors/xeon/scalable/xeon-scalable-datasheet-vol-1.html" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/content/www/us/en/processors/xeon/scal...</a><p>Linux doesn't implement reading PIROM over SMBus, but it sure would be nice to expose this flag in /proc/cpuinfo.<p>In WireGuard we're at the moment just disabling the zmm AVX512F implementation on Skylake-X, falling back to the still-fast-but-not-as-fast AVX512VL implementation that only touches ymm and doesn't downclock as much (following OpenSSL's reasoning on +/- <PERSON> same implementation):<p><a href="https://_URL_1_/WireGuard/tree/src/crypto/chacha20poly1305.c#n47" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_1_/WireGuard/tree/src/crypto/chacha20poly...</a><p>I may look into trying to read the PIROM so that I can make a more informed decision. I've tested those Platinum boxes, and indeed it's a lot faster there, even with the [lesser] downclocking, whereas a Gold box didn't perform as well, making the ymm-only implementation necessary.	1,841,311	[ 1840819, 1840815, 1840808, 1840803, 1840810, 1840839, 1840806, 1840837, 1840853 ]	176	[ 1472385, 195052, 129489, 769320, 1463117, 1837399, 1429852, 237901, 570625, 1089895, 1143692, 1806035, 538677, 614356, 512965, 328401, 669369, 1818592, 1042400, 1507655, 1133498, 754476, 302422, 192052, 1094723, 1583939, 537355, 786875, 1494007, 1691311, 1209159, 1117734, 1273054, 1458845, 22502, 860408, 1573648, 92173, 912499, 1514123, 499640, 709799, 959129, 1765967, 1355756, 569985, 923553, 1481620, 277584, 1542936, 853953, 248262, 1726002, 910918, 1206679, 249299, 1471591, 1726882, 1752281, 1044220, 1001142, 1704463, 862361, 811395, 725385, 1078149, 738943, 117391, 1722527, 1093506, 1663506, 858979, 716351, 1793501, 1336762, 803441, 281923, 1706293, 1507615, 1767878, 1084154, 1711265, 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HNI_zx2c4	Pro-tip: if you pop a shell, only use it to run your own dropper. Use locally available tools as little as possible. Automate your entire post-exploitation payload and cleanup and get out as soon as possible.<p>Reading this article is like reading about elite navy seals who storm an enemy outpost, get inside, and then get distracted trying to refashion a stapler they find laying around into a lock-picking device to open the safe.	1,841,312	[ 1840808, 1840815 ]	202	[ 795911, 1658730, 443400, 862009, 863959, 1214482, 172077, 900615, 1152011, 966536, 338458, 1180123, 1590438, 169521, 1105313, 618318, 1274492, 1304062, 1713938, 1110253, 1658863, 255513, 1179409, 668713, 531718, 1659176, 808118, 980821, 524031, 860738, 333652, 541008, 939341, 1274383, 1153183, 1543525, 1309999, 1650073, 1686934, 1602995, 747317, 519991, 652861, 252249, 719428, 544505, 973809, 1558592, 1630776, 100042, 1220748, 1221739, 926851, 674230, 893197, 805611, 465493, 1800228, 1131358, 1274507, 1440004, 1469989, 971596, 145562, 1242844, 821109, 61315, 1326441, 1711001, 1657342, 1832839, 378702, 719941, 578957, 948922, 1158310, 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HNI_zx2c4	> TunSafe will not be able to communicate with the wireguard servers if it does not use the correct encryption and protocol scheme<p>There's a lot more to writing secure software than merely implementing something that appears to speak the protocol some of the time, or merely implementing a protocol at all. As I said, don't rely on TunSafe.<p>As above, we'll have snapshots of the cross platform implementations shortly. Until then, I'd recommend just waiting patiently.	1,841,313	[ 1840808 ]	213	[ 524518, 402850, 1749278, 1469258, 1438372, 524517, 807765, 912315, 122249, 410009, 208913, 998915, 1487771, 1514712, 1188429, 279835, 852470, 1430093, 700140, 1440837, 804190, 1350042, 1419439, 1231457, 1767806, 1377966, 1718790, 654860, 1777078, 92315, 250665, 1538682, 1356840, 1430010, 844899, 62479, 1161478, 1079870, 61436, 1024587, 916422, 1657064, 143850, 537599, 1585703, 1584508, 1827311, 326141, 217838, 1053488, 671929, 540227, 725190, 449007, 917811, 1233729, 689565, 1672994, 1141720, 1435336, 729338, 955968, 1624073, 543864, 874307, 249326, 965901, 308560, 1765807, 543548, 1429072, 1760684, 1720685, 419462, 1080572, 1741262, 1538756, 1028074, 725274, 15368, 1047567, 1371622, 126932, 953179, 903952, 232169, 1455684, 1309345, 1746094, 1749825, 1469260, 604869, 624558, 576569, 1297688, 1444063, 1741296, 957782, 1644248, 1822139, 1546454, 1371345, 267947, 1541260, 591719, 1005538, 894454, 164716, 938738, 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HNI_zx2c4	There's another paper besides the RHUL one, which preceded it, using tamarin: <a href="https://_URL_0_/wireguard-tamarin/tree/wireguard.m4" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/wireguard-tamarin/tree/wireguard.m4</a> <a href="https://_URL_1_/papers/wireguard-formal-verification.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_1_/papers/wireguard-formal-verificati...</a> There are other groups who are also currently working on similar and better proofs. I think the end goal is to get proofs of the general pattern language of Noise rather than just the WireGuard handshake (IKpsk2), which will probably then satisfy your concerns with Noise. The Noise project itself is also working on things like NoiseSocket which will be more of an easily pluggable " ;right answer " ;.	1,841,314	[ 1840808, 1840819, 1840815 ]	213	[ 833372, 1236758, 355949, 403382, 1551959, 725190, 910918, 1602998, 910936, 769445, 1428911, 1015838, 1718724, 24503, 910868, 906065, 736596, 788643, 1474443, 910921, 1079335, 1755379, 1285213, 221660, 840687, 1570797, 1775800, 1497572, 1517946, 1641643, 840674, 1613243, 294530, 684379, 1694249, 494626, 973089, 732213, 1683354, 1032456, 1224156, 597439, 1707524, 1363642, 1553651, 1305124, 424218, 192084, 1020628, 894427, 1640600, 1193419, 373479, 545932, 1082306, 1255660, 608277, 1673568, 963830, 604827, 1446774, 1380751, 421031, 444964, 617046, 290484, 1392623, 1045546, 1618849, 1668072, 1405908, 205670, 13950, 1080314, 414756, 1082242, 449186, 1278554, 447967, 424705, 1091691, 203475, 508642, 858985, 914850, 1783856, 192271, 1079053, 910935, 1605258, 807342, 63273, 1838378, 1363638, 135430, 1543756, 538754, 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HNI_zx2c4	> If you care about this, then put the laptop in a tamper-evident bag.<p>How does this procedure work for multiday evil maid situations? The first day while you're out the maid replaces your collection of plastic disposable tamper-evident bags with faulty ones that open with a particular chemical but otherwise look identical. The second day the maid tampers with your laptop and you don't notice. Do you just have to take the whole box of additional bags with you everyday? That seems prohibitively inconvenient.	1,841,315	[ 1840812, 1840810, 1840819, 1840808, 1840826, 1840806, 1840822, 1840824, 1840853, 1840866, 1840839, 1840833, 1840825, 1840820 ]	191	[ 318461, 1435038, 1609686, 696195, 1542749, 289966, 1537225, 1504711, 862148, 1413260, 695962, 1345013, 207725, 773183, 696170, 1405345, 1077315, 1197566, 293188, 289999, 1819939, 579029, 135324, 992031, 1263044, 901056, 497335, 307145, 1437759, 1717554, 570130, 796032, 657146, 577507, 839988, 329492, 802673, 158491, 204282, 561210, 832824, 643545, 831357, 541896, 736826, 712689, 241016, 1092574, 362291, 1598180, 1338105, 455635, 1527876, 95330, 241445, 907061, 579018, 579017, 482370, 1443237, 1695661, 662716, 1411240, 1180719, 560930, 1374846, 740672, 853759, 1077670, 449991, 414476, 838061, 88877, 1684072, 1562294, 1027098, 1070518, 796740, 839984, 1426639, 558956, 1352454, 248644, 307543, 661188, 1704256, 564757, 414477, 614874, 66817, 1260761, 43558, 977131, 1839248, 1817770, 1084892, 1582053, 1722283, 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HNI_zx2c4	That's a fine and fair principle. I understand where you're coming from, and getting this mainlined is important to me too.<p>But for the record, we're maintaining meticulous compatibility with all _URL_1_ kernels back to 3.10 and up to whatever the most recent RCs are (at the moment, 4.17-rc5). We also support the frankenkernels from ubuntu, redhat, and suse. We have a build and run-in-a-vm CI box testing all these kernels for every commit and on a bunch of architectures: <a href="https://_URL_0_/build-status/" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/build-status/</a> And because we're actively working on upstreaming this, you can be sure that this is going to continue working with upstream.<p>Also, this isn't a " ;company releasing their own modules " ; situation, providing some kind of throw-it-over-the-fence corporate crap code. I'm a kernel developer with a decent amount of upstream code, and the work I do is nearly always for upstream kernels.	1,841,316	[ 1840808, 1840865 ]	123	[ 1672646, 1156605, 1664113, 1801066, 837723, 460357, 1674351, 422244, 336490, 1576077, 124911, 1015011, 1566343, 1780959, 743329, 1640280, 1256492, 832628, 560828, 504356, 192322, 853123, 1299432, 1052655, 1674355, 1351666, 1237776, 1608082, 702498, 1827301, 841005, 606229, 1623923, 659063, 1158332, 1694279, 1080087, 381223, 999974, 691424, 4816, 380826, 724987, 1679025, 1367754, 1625372, 1742224, 882741, 1368017, 1064911, 939525, 868146, 1355751, 1802577, 1655190, 1627738, 1711547, 1166845, 192339, 307673, 1617596, 1630636, 1413679, 1618484, 1610468, 863496, 1618485, 1046959, 412006, 1465562, 436052, 1629886, 1607653, 559730, 1082004, 1639926, 1577141, 1629889, 1074939, 1759868, 799970, 368598, 1016472, 1618486, 869214, 1629887, 1697346, 399251, 1501888, 654958, 560841, 1691357, 1587470, 596663, 1360613, 230479, 1706650, 1674359, 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HNI_zxcdw	Ideally, of course, everyone could charge what they want for what they are trying to do, and everything would be flawless regarding to that. However, if we try to live by this idealism in this digital world, we also have to accept that the road to that said idealism goes through DRM, walled gardens and broken net-neutrality. Basically, to achieve that idealism with modern day digital devices we have to give up digital liberties (including privacy more or less).<p>I prefer the digital freedom over the anti-piracy idealism anyday. I suppose " ;digital anarchism " ; and " ;digital totalitarianism " ; would be descriptive terms for the (exaggerrated) ends of the spectrum.<p>Being an European, I at times praise the American gun culture and how the American constitution is such a holy thing over there (not that I want the guns over here though, but the attitude). What I would love to see is a similar attitude taken towards not <i>guns</i>, but <i>computing</i>. Fuck the authorities who try to whitelist sequences of instructions to execute on my <i>general purpose computer</i> in the name of protecting their copyright or patents, or corporate profits or local monopolies of digital information exchange.<p>If we ever go to this digital dystopian future (as if some wouldn't claim we are there already!), I firmly believe, and am afraid, that it is first and foremost lead by arguments in favor of entertainment industry (and to some extent by " ;protecting children " ; and " ;catching terrorist " ;, how else...).<p>This is why the copyright laws and the whole notion of digital copyright enforcement is meaningless for me, and I personally am opposed to them regardless of being well aware that it's almost certainly a battle which can't be won. Not because we'd be wrong, but because digital liberties undermine ability to make profit in many ways. Oh well, at least there were us who tried.	1,841,317	null	244	[ 407293, 1513202, 720617, 1702972, 820107, 202354, 638213, 1760565, 1299463, 1665458, 237623, 1716121, 1391852, 1590588, 1496497, 904434, 978547, 1355073, 1628600, 896734, 905446, 13904, 1124862, 774764, 244135, 1068063, 1021239, 92614, 615647, 1161561, 1170536, 928971, 1451493, 1381560, 1503819, 977349, 1790227, 1345319, 1093218, 1546967, 586746, 1446466, 239232, 548512, 863804, 1481898, 428600, 752466, 1614879, 644107, 1547641, 226065, 237630, 1034295, 434846, 6977, 855780, 1163616, 1481084, 538805, 65215, 942063, 83897, 1610960, 607331, 1446491, 653855, 1194213, 794394, 1229635, 726873, 351943, 750610, 814842, 1765699, 832842, 369780, 1071300, 237423, 1769334, 606356, 1584517, 509269, 645538, 1080344, 1508953, 1503039, 1835719, 1627759, 1652990, 209249, 318778, 83039, 716915, 1752551, 363712, 1218876, 258385, 803642, 1244856, 481708, 369103, 947704, 1391233, 798584, 319425, 843498, 1090754, 912296, 544506, 1541295, 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HNI_zxcdw	> There will never be a <PERSON> of biology because the mechanisms of life aren't so neat and ordered that they can reduced to first principles.<p>Let us simulate the universe and let that simulation be the ruleset for the first principles.<p>Not saying it's going to be neat and ordered, but on the other hand, the idea of it surely is. Whether or not it is ever feasible (or even theoretically possible) to do so doesn't take away from the merits of the <i>idea</i>, I think.	1,841,318	null	160	[ 889368, 988971, 1327967, 64020, 899950, 296457, 1748212, 1624821, 1710467, 116263, 776637, 512389, 498584, 1065530, 844940, 114892, 512579, 1624822, 14108, 512807, 716267, 582980, 1228556, 1307889, 78495, 597850, 1345419, 527014, 512581, 137421, 1115032, 705187, 1075634, 1756857, 330239, 281046, 1756859, 597340, 111603, 1292548, 513448, 1448332, 1757372, 272089, 1737858, 469043, 94579, 881173, 96586, 1372706, 176098, 1615090, 1522436, 449444, 235110, 1066809, 1627572, 1380852, 1624823, 1534600, 764352, 474347, 64836, 105648, 1624819, 816931, 512804, 1520900, 570009, 447968, 1307890, 1127391, 632416, 1705783, 1193127, 217141, 236816, 1462516, 244334, 237423, 253655, 680369, 1064870, 597331, 427313, 492807, 1711072, 1365166, 943615, 1317049, 704949, 525759, 1813309, 582987, 1088558, 338632, 793821, 1158162, 1207865, 770090, 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HNI_zxcdw	I agree. But I'm also convinced that in practice there's absolutely no way to pressure OEMs to allow control over our devices in such way that it would lead to persistent computational opennes and freedom.<p>Walled gardens and eroded digital/computational liberties are here to stay, and even more so in the future. The trend has been that " ;hacking the device " ; has become harder and harder, and devices have became more and more closed and controlled. I don't expect this trend to change any time soon. I sure as hell wish it did, but why would it?	1,841,319	null	92	[ 328191, 855974, 950016, 484902, 638213, 988181, 1457881, 1457988, 670592, 1121082, 1208527, 273853, 1153111, 895053, 566245, 1564718, 793224, 1323185, 1053756, 591898, 334409, 785175, 1355249, 149044, 568658, 915730, 1171090, 1548318, 666067, 1519101, 1053519, 1455748, 112914, 776792, 1543129, 1629628, 1024907, 1796692, 1762549, 620808, 258415, 972922, 149041, 1153338, 583063, 1578277, 706611, 499970, 1043160, 260361, 166222, 1153363, 1191594, 1664140, 1824134, 200701, 1121052, 1829550, 569207, 74736, 508139, 1764668, 1522913, 1502188, 1591058, 1467937, 1399030, 64955, 678213, 1027154, 407295, 1299220, 1583850, 884723, 1447665, 590109, 1284990, 1622018, 1522101, 92336, 1722200, 522275, 502925, 1679286, 320874, 670395, 984616, 629864, 1408807, 27306, 1022716, 828068, 1375046, 668875, 1781387, 754162, 1813316, 151978, 934569, 910494, 1154675, 295898, 543225, 1372238, 1824462, 1524711, 952968, 123411, 87371, 1541378, 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HNI_zxcdw	> and that it's our own fault<p>Whose fault <i>exactly</i> is it?<p>Has anybody in HN worked with a company which does this crapware bundling, let alone creating? Or does anybody know anyone who's " ;in the business " ;? Because I, quite honestly, can't understand how or why people would be doing this. Is it really that " ;Well, I know this shit is going to infect thousands of machines with software which <i>nobody</i> would like to have, but hey, <i>it gives me my salary, fuck yeah!</i> " ;?<p>It's just sad that there are people scamming others like this, and people who jump into it because hey, paycheck!	1,841,320	null	91	[ 383744, 546670, 401530, 1196992, 106083, 106479, 300907, 925777, 548399, 1672633, 1314106, 819519, 1310805, 1634736, 1093054, 979205, 401527, 1559285, 1700425, 966341, 461506, 1445261, 1728360, 45872, 288801, 70361, 358054, 633476, 1433124, 391189, 905451, 848621, 505774, 422703, 97910, 191908, 1146901, 689357, 1172220, 987822, 467879, 1436287, 519623, 199721, 973859, 29355, 1459879, 62157, 1711037, 1314093, 81626, 1459821, 831909, 1241309, 184681, 134358, 1806513, 907993, 635573, 849747, 1777604, 635712, 1305109, 759416, 1672022, 1728934, 502949, 1407171, 1713414, 818149, 831977, 1811371, 461511, 99399, 996402, 676226, 882013, 614665, 467115, 72125, 689528, 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HNI_zxcdw	But isn't computer just the medium to access the <i>real</i> addiction-causing substance, whatever it may be?<p>I mean, if you give person <i>a computer</i> of any kind without internet access, they'll likely feel just as anxious as not having the device in the first place. This, to me, would suggest that what <i>actually</i> causes the addiction is something these online services provide for people. Be it for example some form of self-expression in form of Facebook status updates. They'll be fine for as long as they get to make the update for example (and perhaps see it go live? As in to check their outside appearance like a person checks the mirror after fixing their clothing, despite knowing the clothing is fine. Just <i>need</i> that feedback for the sake of feedback itself, not for any particular practical reason necessarily).<p>Why do I make the distinction? Because I've had to deal with something related to the subject matter myself. (Acknowledgement of some form/sort of addiction, which isn't computers <i>themselves</i> (though the addiction-causing behavior is mediated through a computer), or " ;being online " ;, but something more general because the addiction takes its shape and form for as long as the online service provides the easy " ;dopamine rush " ; (in lack of a better term), perhaps to relieve some underlying anxiety?)	1,841,321	null	186	[ 417837, 475121, 1800024, 1639759, 148543, 1515954, 1595977, 245057, 897608, 1735497, 1394110, 582656, 1752347, 1096422, 456466, 1434409, 1553064, 1485377, 344563, 418490, 8908, 853551, 199, 1435294, 1001233, 1687455, 1675182, 1796693, 282933, 1186106, 1441754, 222719, 1589660, 738954, 772216, 851923, 1616453, 1435202, 1240675, 1182526, 1287902, 1200117, 1070840, 15197, 1103466, 480796, 837383, 1433107, 353934, 1065217, 61487, 1631059, 213650, 1639754, 1130062, 500590, 824972, 842033, 213690, 1117372, 658555, 1124916, 871320, 1639668, 236174, 906829, 401256, 1762337, 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HNI_zxcdw	I suspect it's a mere challenge for the " ;troll " ; to see if they can beat the system. If not, they'll try harder until they <i>can</i>. The more challenge the more rewarding it is, thus the harder they try and eventually succeed unless it's impossible (in which case they figure it out and quit trying).<p>It's really the sincerest form of hacker spirit which manifests itself this way. Why? Because internet^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Hitler.<p>Edit: Well, I didn't quite address the art part but still.	1,841,322	null	243	[ 1699143, 512644, 233901, 805146, 320845, 1688185, 1768433, 1014911, 1164874, 1693328, 990087, 113925, 207402, 14897, 525754, 347522, 1331330, 1596562, 19835, 19349, 838924, 632331, 447668, 1269100, 349782, 1021866, 139397, 55144, 711464, 513506, 276400, 1837844, 1392158, 1638702, 1563289, 1542994, 1418710, 1201477, 158958, 731006, 1542778, 544117, 1382870, 769008, 1493923, 1156106, 1018145, 1508731, 669719, 933700, 774721, 1253398, 337281, 1257887, 337684, 679621, 416257, 409087, 72396, 1152072, 819352, 1774370, 1288664, 768112, 762796, 1513871, 598663, 533907, 191212, 629390, 881413, 1368058, 1687903, 1789665, 1152827, 1680937, 474110, 354980, 339899, 177866, 720464, 1444350, 135131, 967795, 1533038, 1219941, 1405133, 233541, 1654279, 1264846, 1017402, 1170468, 1775266, 1436482, 514600, 1833713, 724022, 1751160, 635106, 259890, 1692517, 1339923, 1000300, 1494381, 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HNI_zxcdw	I do agree with you, though <i>as a brief tangent</i> (as if this horse wasn't beat badly enough here in HN during the past almost 30 months...), my personal concern is both political and ethical, and I suspect this same concern applies to many of us who see dragnet surveillance as a problem.<p>The political aspect is that whatever data there is about an individual can be used against them, <i>selectively</i>, for say political purposes. This is a gross violation of transparency and the principles of a democratic society.<p>The ethical aspect is that I am being spied upon <i>because of what I am not</i> -- because I am <i>not</i> a US citizen. The talk about whether US constitution protects <i>US citizens</i> from dragnet mass surveillance (and thus whether NSA spying is unconstitutional) outright disgusts <i>me</i> (although I do understand the relevance for US citizens, of course). Telling one to " ;not use US internet services " ; is like telling one to opt out from the Internet. It's a " ;tough cookies " ; argument with very limited practical applicability.<p>Collecting information about me to make money out of me by selling me stuff? Honestly, <i>in comparison</i>, that doesn't feel <i>that</i> bad at all. Luckily, browser add-ons like Ghostery and various adblockers mitigate this to an extent.	1,841,323	null	13	[ 122212, 493576, 1166189, 368123, 842337, 467055, 1324200, 694037, 568908, 868653, 1415258, 1538708, 687520, 122211, 774361, 223389, 587851, 747256, 523850, 351825, 1118514, 400310, 606387, 475361, 1435185, 209478, 1750228, 1181142, 905741, 594765, 1833956, 1771545, 375900, 547692, 1047812, 6565, 160053, 1454066, 1077386, 1209960, 747178, 1702309, 1324188, 629672, 1130738, 542719, 1784134, 446618, 111128, 1393018, 1400281, 1105745, 583807, 1391587, 52415, 1105898, 1439000, 1427150, 1232361, 897749, 375898, 568681, 1793300, 1726910, 531760, 236914, 1440298, 2037, 259028, 387923, 1435344, 487233, 111137, 1498480, 537427, 122267, 1372255, 1421208, 1155420, 1323522, 535848, 793523, 1813565, 1384818, 1318118, 303475, 1027107, 79463, 265765, 377584, 875537, 75797, 203279, 1693902, 119172, 1370633, 1501309, 1819842, 351675, 542223, 390088, 1006320, 1270983, 1215364, 720053, 1532055, 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HNI_zxcdw	(Note that I am not the person you replied to.)<p>I do honestly feel that there should be a law against that in the society which I live in, since I find such actions taken by the restaurant owner to be manipulative and purposefully deceptive (excuse me for not coming up with better terms, I am not a native English speaker), knowing that many people -- not all of them, but many -- thus end up drinking far more than they would personally intend to.<p>I see no reason to promote such dishonesty, deception and misleading actions towards customers within a society, especially when the vulnerable ones are not vulnerable to it <i>by choice</i>, but <i>by nature</i>. It's the exact same thing which goes on with say gambling addicts or alcoholics. And no, I am not arguing for giving up the notion of personal responsibility, but I am arguing that these actions exploit vulnerabilities in people, which I see as no different from a ethical point of view than say committing a fraud against someone you know who has a psychological or neurological condition making them vulnerable for excess goodwill (or, someone suffering from e.g. dementia).	1,841,324	null	79	[ 1539001, 158703, 516833, 997169, 857873, 1367115, 1352928, 1026441, 167862, 754124, 850574, 692033, 1155016, 772483, 447488, 1597987, 1012046, 178038, 589816, 1713453, 1804903, 1493482, 1526380, 896565, 423076, 1194457, 913908, 794662, 703642, 1781602, 1440364, 1119411, 79181, 1323744, 920454, 1326634, 608178, 1034244, 1661020, 1008611, 1604944, 941765, 1533721, 1132762, 1349732, 1471142, 848941, 165875, 1364851, 3372, 856747, 1138335, 880941, 336640, 1441535, 920214, 920193, 1464709, 732643, 1125500, 1099384, 50865, 1533298, 1375108, 1557355, 1790201, 1138976, 720035, 1193759, 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HNI_zxcdw	> But you are.<p>No, I am not. You're seeing binary where there is none. My point is not to abolish the notion of personal responsibility, but to acknowledge that there is more to human behavior and decision making than cold, rational free will.<p> > When you get to micromanaging such trivialities, there's no limit what a planner's mentality will settle on next.<p>This is a slippery slope argument.<p> > It is absolutely not fraud.<p>And I never claimed it was a fraud, why would you interpret it that way? Or do you feel I communicated my point regarding fraud poorly?<p> > The property owner may deliberately arrange the environment so as to maximize an expected consumer end.<p>This is where we disagree at. I do not believe that the property owner may do whatever they wish within their property. I believe there should be laws limiting what and how the property owner may arrange their property -- to defend the customers from themselves, just as there are laws limiting for example gambling, or selling of alcohol and other drugs.<p> > Taking your logic of needing to regulate any " ;misleading action " ; to its conclusion will only entail the abolition of the market economy.<p>Sure, if you take it to the extreme, and in that case then perhaps and if so, I am personally fine with that. I have no personal stake -- or ideology -- in free market economy. It is a mere implementation detail, not an end in itself.<p> > (Moreover, expecting that consumers are morons who cannot regulate their own behavior will generally lead to policymakers drafting proposals that assume as such and end up fulfilling the prophecy on their own, since the resulting bureaucracy will be internalized by consumers in their expectations.)<p>It is about acknowledging that among consumers there are individuals who are vulnerable to various lures (in lack of a better term, but consider alcohol as an example), and that I do personally view exploiting such vulnerabilities as unethical and hence I propose regulation. And I am speaking as someone with social problems due to not having enough control over my own actions regarding certain matters. 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HNI_zxcdw	> Then you don't really support property rights.<p>Or we simply disagree what rights and liabilities the property owner should have in the context, which I define as business property. I see no problem with this as there are many countries with extensive liabilities and regulations when it comes to property and business practices one is allowed to conduct.<p> > By protecting customers from " ;themselves " ; and thus also protecting owners from customers, you are curtailing rights of both to engage in voluntary contract.<p>Oh I indeed am, or I at least am not opposing regulation in this matter from any ideological perspective. I don't see such regulation as inherently bad, as it seems that you see.<p> > It's not at all an " ;implementation detail, " ; it arises quite organically out of interpersonal exchange.<p>Many things arise " ;quite organically " ; from individual actors acting for their own benefit, but in many cases it can be argued for that there are places and times where regulation (governmental or otherwise) does indeed improve the society and the lives of the people within it.<p> > You know what I loathe?<p>I suppose I don't despite having some suspicions, but please, don't assume I <i>care</i> either.<p> > You provide a case for perceived suboptimal behavior of markets, but then by proposing regulation you completely ignore the prospect of suboptimal government action!<p>How couldn't you say this exact same about <i>any</i> form of regulation within markets? And if so, to me it seems that you oppose regulation out of a principle -- and really, how you come off as suggests the same.<p> > You'd do yourself good by reading up on some public choice theory.<p>Oh, always, though I am almost certain our differing views lie somewhere else completely. I suppose you have recommendations though?	1,841,326	null	204	[ 1471145, 602860, 687504, 1604944, 1077300, 711538, 1541118, 1604954, 1707184, 1323343, 654118, 1605025, 1397358, 1790886, 199656, 1077306, 1650374, 1180204, 1471240, 167464, 1103295, 1243173, 1008944, 474923, 1253343, 770006, 731683, 681110, 28497, 40814, 1538762, 203896, 201680, 652234, 657629, 863372, 885900, 481861, 725053, 49665, 1253341, 1635102, 1323652, 1154762, 487211, 1759324, 1328253, 805952, 1280740, 1139728, 1307620, 29685, 1651531, 167465, 1077235, 86251, 1374701, 309165, 296226, 1326650, 1605007, 309064, 1512245, 1379196, 1632905, 867862, 1588334, 3111, 613837, 570446, 1472497, 42563, 1498827, 1314341, 201672, 944063, 282353, 507687, 568260, 863370, 342084, 778544, 474856, 1449872, 1541422, 1701439, 452852, 720982, 1649799, 179369, 603404, 1085169, 880933, 1523070, 755868, 1312694, 943041, 746936, 817413, 1650985, 675724, 1397322, 212736, 1759325, 1710993, 1567571, 347647, 197815, 1345848, 28124, 1509641, 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HNI_zxcdw	> From a quick check it seems Twitter is getting better at it. Prices used to be more like in the low $20/k range. Now the low end accounts are $45/k and if you want PVAd/profiled it's up near $90. Compare to Gmail where the price is more like $280/k. Or Facebook EN accounts, $120. Good to see my old colleagues doing such a good job!<p>Perhaps there's just more demand?<p> > Nowadays there's suddenly a bout of anti-Russian hysteria. Suddenly bots are in focus again. There are conspiracy theories about botted accounts being used to convince people to change their political positions. Having worked in the industry for years I am deeply skeptical about this. I never once saw bots being used for political ends or anything even approaching it. There is a lot of disinformation out there about Russia right now from western sources, and a lot of paranoia that doesn't seem to be justifiable.<p>The fact that you've worked for Google on anti-botting and didn't see the technique you were tasked to counter used for political means might be leaving you biased. Without pointing fingers, I just want to state that there's tremendous political opportunity in spreading misinformation via internet (via any media really), it's amazing that in 2017 this isn't clear for <i>everyone</i>.	1,841,327	null	232	[ 1016854, 1059329, 1552221, 326406, 1569287, 1751095, 832617, 1016956, 1556857, 39506, 1249086, 275946, 725653, 566540, 71238, 497350, 753342, 344249, 1840937, 1523870, 566539, 904242, 263120, 170638, 1548180, 1137444, 522319, 1110570, 1016951, 819019, 1158611, 1674049, 479145, 592483, 494842, 964960, 1801174, 353930, 1137363, 1711419, 676880, 1222268, 1157818, 1245967, 374492, 353168, 467055, 1767206, 701461, 1550968, 1373489, 1664701, 68312, 1219507, 1238956, 691389, 1771557, 1308772, 1773436, 398573, 45663, 636026, 180853, 473718, 132832, 1810502, 1548302, 575607, 461476, 1328113, 1223001, 1509105, 1548191, 595740, 1164717, 1774569, 1125066, 590547, 595612, 1618363, 1049961, 415123, 681006, 715744, 162488, 212777, 751461, 130438, 237417, 674976, 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HNI_zxcvbn4038	The banks didn't get the memo from NIST and if anything they are getting worse - they are actually ramping up their use of callback and SMS authentication. Last month I had several apps force an SMS authentication because I hand't logged in since paying bills the prior month. One app disabled Touch ID and forced an SMS auth before I could log in again. One bank locked me out of my account entirely because you can't log in or contact custom service without receiving an SMS code (no voice option), but their system refuses to send SMS to my number.<p>It would be great if the banks supported TOTP and U2F keys (or if they managed passwords correctly and didn't limit the length or force absurd character recipes).<p>I once applied for a job at a top 3 bank's IT security area and on the way to the interview room I noticed that every single desk had a well worn copy of Computer Security For Dummies. I think that may be the root cause of all banking security problems right there.	1,841,328	[ 1840880 ]	235	[ 1379295, 1714051, 1719537, 92386, 379539, 462381, 1343382, 888616, 589666, 360020, 1292265, 149008, 1053319, 1161562, 705254, 1564395, 786969, 1181356, 1525883, 1593924, 346348, 302404, 632342, 1075060, 829668, 1085011, 1813024, 329488, 174388, 523221, 1161225, 22406, 1207589, 1053524, 864555, 13594, 1550123, 632345, 833443, 616223, 1089147, 139056, 1504690, 747174, 596758, 1740310, 248953, 1379232, 322959, 1758013, 881550, 139161, 772593, 1532296, 235821, 169900, 1385953, 346764, 544066, 1416059, 899106, 610137, 798063, 526613, 1530694, 1605133, 1282121, 1507732, 375699, 1725546, 1023094, 692747, 18702, 9819, 1532139, 1501247, 685794, 1602793, 1301436, 847022, 1687840, 1282537, 556476, 672668, 1447550, 1716931, 617965, 148641, 967639, 1755100, 1109206, 375720, 741537, 1243962, 134973, 326333, 913472, 1432201, 92388, 900423, 1438445, 424775, 1717686, 1003540, 1242275, 148662, 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HNI_zxcvbn4038	There used to be a really nifty site called _URL_0_ which would let you make realistic looking pictures of billboards, restaurant marquees, and similar. It was there for years then one day it stopped loading and soon after the domain expired. I've often hoped that the author might surface on Hacker News, Reddit, github, a blog, or an on-line resume but they never have. Does anyone here know who the author was and if they can be contacted?	1,841,329	[ 1840886, 1840885 ]	48	[ 943235, 934397, 904441, 405351, 428215, 1067099, 690190, 1274211, 562228, 1414912, 943541, 741011, 1026066, 208527, 287972, 729033, 393040, 1380346, 127203, 1035212, 45677, 1020586, 1643543, 53674, 943947, 364649, 1658912, 1341661, 1203301, 1673002, 859570, 1475618, 459212, 685258, 1027943, 1101208, 1325708, 953375, 38328, 649958, 739863, 1453346, 1557029, 1210541, 1574452, 1642873, 934605, 976986, 1361873, 1093405, 405606, 874510, 1795682, 1579095, 122477, 405479, 1520537, 1350960, 1636611, 771088, 1414761, 140045, 657071, 447909, 98309, 1718080, 390373, 411320, 943331, 1198826, 267394, 424590, 904130, 1757672, 1315176, 317140, 533281, 1066092, 444919, 1001930, 963532, 1041738, 943349, 521572, 1451852, 1185043, 1237565, 690601, 1617641, 515975, 1520524, 38841, 1690875, 796786, 514647, 938199, 76867, 397653, 1010831, 114048, 454772, 930081, 1360961, 1246174, 497458, 1830808, 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HNI_zxcvbn4038	Very nice! I have many fond memories of the After Dark screen savers - my favorite was from the " ;Twisted " ; collection had featured a silhouette of a big city apartment building with crazy stuff happening in the windows. There was an old lady that would bank on the ceiling with a broom, a guy spanking a monkey, lovers that would chase each other, a crazy guy with a shot gun trying to down a UFO, and ton of other stuff. I also liked the Twisted version of the fish tank which featured that maffioso that would fall to the bottom wearing cement shoes and eventually die after holding his breath for a few minutes. After Dark was about the only software I ever paid for. If I remember right they were bought by Sierra, whom I believe was more interested in their You Don't Know Jack video games, which promptly killed all their screen saver products.	1,841,330	[ 1840886, 1840884, 1840885, 1840878 ]	185	[ 1641069, 196643, 1443176, 205221, 55994, 1022072, 236249, 1222485, 399792, 1827825, 1265334, 1394615, 489347, 97365, 852902, 145015, 379636, 1179833, 23080, 764791, 29742, 713098, 278522, 1489470, 987838, 1372406, 97143, 55888, 987472, 341366, 1239174, 977504, 1132219, 1591412, 1542346, 1189013, 1749019, 119910, 1139294, 422066, 828203, 419141, 1223932, 1182839, 329038, 44401, 484998, 171478, 540446, 870333, 1438610, 1443169, 1832063, 1690621, 1424320, 1566632, 977198, 40894, 991073, 786389, 1492890, 353425, 705719, 84999, 768065, 765000, 846635, 299662, 1454962, 1835919, 1401841, 1481012, 1006431, 765180, 530764, 425331, 977316, 1221184, 376884, 1675190, 1515424, 623139, 626480, 152292, 1424243, 1178888, 430867, 1812775, 341233, 838356, 1012492, 361815, 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HNI_zxcvbn4038	This is going to be great - what are Yahoo!, Citibank, and everyone else who has declared war on VOIP by refusing to send SMS or voice auths to them going to do now that the third largest carrier in the US is all VOIP? Its a rhetorical question, they are going to drop the " ;that number doesn't look right " ; crap.<p>I remember being denied loans and credit cards because I only had a mobile phone (no hard line), but today no bank would dare do that because it would exclude the majority of the population. Now they're going to swallow their pride and allow VOIP numbers.<p>Now if we can just get everyone on board with preventing the banks from disabling paste on form fields!	1,841,331	null	175	[ 763242, 216085, 560892, 1021969, 1250576, 594942, 590664, 1676391, 73932, 1379295, 160201, 836460, 446177, 192935, 472645, 907406, 214911, 1063831, 208995, 1050926, 709384, 1159332, 1257639, 1147031, 734501, 225505, 593117, 123046, 1645743, 489206, 656049, 1190507, 651312, 237102, 1482634, 1751392, 145067, 151833, 1660587, 595029, 1656828, 1505958, 1256711, 1065737, 526936, 578249, 668075, 1276066, 322959, 1142159, 734503, 332216, 1622330, 42495, 394369, 261454, 332217, 275413, 1329488, 762629, 164821, 1688969, 1655303, 1607483, 1163258, 1501300, 335092, 1659400, 216086, 708975, 1709209, 1694058, 1368230, 183258, 484593, 873448, 561353, 1639363, 540201, 173721, 1446491, 131160, 1483002, 443255, 400359, 814199, 1308512, 250730, 630047, 1021562, 33667, 1752599, 1319834, 400451, 1329487, 332163, 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HNI_zxcvbn4038	I'm surprised they haven't gained wider adoption, their competitors charge yearly fees for their tokens, and in many cases you become dependent on their infrastructure to use them. U2F is a one time investment as long as the token isn't damaged, and your not beholden to Yubico in the slightest. I've got a box of RSA tokens from former jobs. E*Trade still gives out some token with a LCD display for $20 a year as their sole 2nd factor option.	1,841,332	[ 1840886 ]	241	[ 429566, 1428677, 1426536, 1725514, 109987, 299656, 1801145, 1489338, 1059557, 15567, 1767895, 264539, 944579, 92386, 1554009, 170505, 1284971, 92306, 1385955, 128688, 37919, 1115810, 1254546, 1254325, 1330993, 1083140, 843275, 1274636, 1574469, 879180, 1454339, 1447174, 1725522, 912878, 37893, 1429006, 116733, 336294, 37903, 37891, 114603, 1542924, 37886, 37894, 565287, 1660893, 491561, 295407, 1692119, 1692120, 845240, 1546655, 688353, 165925, 359823, 996033, 140382, 1161562, 501402, 1235774, 37889, 92308, 1651986, 1163516, 537655, 844427, 1579134, 1219548, 1233426, 229597, 729970, 692282, 1429001, 1502392, 1542923, 1553364, 940747, 878999, 198716, 1076987, 838454, 1454337, 221129, 114601, 1751313, 729827, 1454336, 1469470, 37723, 1814797, 37882, 92314, 1272393, 1727901, 437865, 671371, 596597, 1544118, 187295, 1339994, 758324, 223480, 121067, 1401521, 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HNI_zxcvbn4038	Just the other day I wrote an Oauth login feature in Go for fun. Facebook banned my account three days later for " ;suspicious " ; activity. Twitter banned my account in 48 seconds - I didn't even have a chance to setup an Oauth token. That right there shows the problem with being reliant on a 3rd party for access to your site, what if the 3rd party refuses to work with you? Suddenly your cut off from a percentage of your users. (It wasn't all bad, setting up Amazon login was quick and painless and they didn't ban my account!)<p>I do wish more sites allowed TOTP (Google Auth) because it works well and avoids the third party dependency, but I'd be happiest if sites would just stopped disabling paste so I can use strong passwords with my password manager. (Synchrony Bank, I'm looking at you and all your dozens of co-branded web sites)	1,841,333	[ 1840886 ]	246	[ 1266466, 1236333, 355692, 27785, 955017, 874352, 838391, 685045, 1413450, 1568372, 6739, 1455968, 46103, 135834, 938625, 1084998, 947638, 879408, 615758, 481186, 1831848, 587613, 1835091, 31809, 1685396, 784416, 1344442, 1016174, 546707, 735451, 160891, 1548512, 1570825, 1351579, 825167, 1258435, 1531985, 994855, 1418810, 561029, 14748, 1309413, 603319, 1719853, 602813, 849854, 1190722, 155457, 1328844, 390417, 303909, 1200621, 500485, 1089154, 1778448, 1543804, 122649, 1667925, 1194729, 39466, 1357549, 1725514, 1834367, 610167, 341005, 500487, 1189374, 88542, 1277757, 987595, 1063701, 608707, 82717, 739861, 13631, 1543439, 1191916, 375760, 1377342, 1543765, 1672642, 246911, 1700812, 393319, 601550, 1558389, 1638580, 596758, 1693512, 45677, 46290, 901589, 1703671, 684209, 1075447, 837720, 1598135, 356300, 1259525, 1840264, 1649521, 352183, 1766741, 684228, 1344490, 770434, 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HNI_zxcvbn4038	SQLite only allows one writer at a time, so depending on your access pattern that might be an issue, but if your site is getting a million requests a day then your only processing an average of 11.5 requests per second, and what percentage of them are writes? Front your app with varnish, nginx (w/cache), or cloudflare and absorb some additional load. Though as far as I can tell _URL_0_ is running on a single linode instance with no fancy hacks.	1,841,334	[ 1840886, 1840880 ]	7	[ 1813438, 1385992, 1092234, 971584, 1466053, 1580674, 551373, 1700338, 1227892, 1413460, 174041, 971583, 1010942, 249154, 799511, 850291, 1094248, 205919, 191249, 401163, 623821, 1369207, 546867, 1134926, 203713, 658337, 1440788, 429879, 1735329, 953475, 847925, 962211, 1430788, 806874, 915785, 579987, 129510, 495575, 162392, 1287163, 1313170, 535644, 876366, 1772632, 776812, 1730829, 1762862, 1044014, 1305531, 62387, 967697, 1734550, 1775863, 314495, 1819204, 615969, 1456596, 1141155, 849309, 546747, 1067950, 429748, 1090333, 1579287, 1807708, 129542, 1559040, 543966, 372582, 377599, 87203, 1729889, 1089894, 376960, 411959, 944239, 686935, 834111, 1586019, 449414, 692176, 523041, 569919, 385099, 898753, 1430527, 1644654, 1281616, 1547175, 462226, 1194649, 799529, 597130, 278162, 543008, 415061, 11857, 1456993, 1089847, 956880, 526564, 883010, 1231642, 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HNI_zxcvbn4038	Anyone with an existing credit relationship with you can still do soft inqueries so it’s not complete but (on paper) it does prevent them from selling your name to others. However if you look even closer these companies have other databases which are not intended for being used in credit decisions and are thus not subject to FCRA and it’s impossible to have information removed from those. They have every address I ever lived at, every phone number I’ve ever had, a list of known associates including relatives of ex-girlfriends whom I lived with only briefly during school, and apparently I own a sporting goods store in Texas - can’t tell them otherwise.	1,841,335	[ 1840880, 1840879 ]	235	[ 625325, 340524, 1519928, 1026814, 1817875, 531463, 681226, 1096735, 1259904, 1577983, 990000, 381941, 1447373, 917080, 817377, 1038388, 1366934, 264408, 1695365, 794833, 1730019, 1362895, 489381, 444444, 1429184, 1366910, 815797, 1753821, 1498031, 1614181, 838980, 815655, 727866, 719167, 471515, 391003, 987529, 834222, 1041123, 1147082, 344335, 861236, 575401, 1166297, 541062, 26286, 276435, 1555765, 560402, 1096412, 304101, 475992, 782817, 340162, 820493, 815791, 1421304, 333587, 799180, 1057871, 1250243, 1292050, 413432, 381783, 1096525, 670173, 532041, 694212, 340174, 1096564, 1114793, 1817666, 1773835, 440313, 201138, 1156799, 1567467, 1020363, 480873, 360334, 766849, 390434, 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HNI_zxcvbn4038	That is absolutely true - even if you are lucky enough to have a charge removed from your criminal record, everything on your arrest record will outlive you. Thats a problem since today every little thing gets you arrested - your average school yard brawl will get kids arrested for assault. However, on the bright side so many people have been arrested or jailed in this country that employers have had to start taking people with minor offenses just because there are so few people who make it to adulthood without at least one encounter with the law.	1,841,336	[ 1840882, 1840884, 1840879, 1840880, 1840883 ]	237	[ 466629, 1577583, 1501972, 496009, 672622, 1170075, 305004, 1360995, 55, 652253, 1445710, 1611332, 1390924, 1224051, 677301, 1446158, 1583827, 126943, 1802957, 409639, 109787, 397843, 1165809, 1774243, 955341, 1245524, 560154, 595982, 655214, 1463477, 578606, 753680, 533940, 837088, 563504, 759199, 1150168, 1453097, 1197068, 1412779, 890258, 84289, 1109207, 1379892, 321360, 1484970, 1507581, 1378096, 69783, 929071, 1068194, 1007190, 422914, 942012, 1217200, 815913, 570161, 538226, 1293543, 281684, 1447117, 189867, 1524478, 43629, 274878, 1212675, 1342527, 258482, 595797, 1026590, 1778933, 1620618, 1024559, 1121468, 419695, 473728, 1376876, 336032, 1135372, 522477, 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HNI_zyb09	I beg to differ. Most of these " ;grumbling devs " ; must have never seen what poor documentation looks like if they think Android's SDK has issues with it. On the contrary, its very well documented in my opinion. The tools are solid too, you can't really complain about IntelliJ as an IDE basis and the build system is good too ever since they switched to Gradle.<p>Of course you could bitch about how they constantly release new APIs for everything, but so does every other platform.	1,841,337	[ 1840894, 1840893, 1840890 ]	157	[ 456800, 785218, 1303274, 785387, 1772975, 214529, 1458716, 49897, 437807, 437797, 341915, 1619809, 1203479, 1532263, 973883, 1331685, 1369561, 774604, 1302806, 1177279, 437794, 1804870, 1541587, 315084, 1672300, 826476, 383909, 810323, 337326, 1121128, 973773, 463427, 191069, 1664714, 1416305, 944724, 289730, 304052, 1495391, 353535, 83993, 855231, 1643241, 973886, 409404, 1247888, 902845, 612829, 599578, 437825, 53885, 1125438, 546, 1693251, 188444, 1766088, 996376, 1552931, 543199, 821948, 242127, 1788183, 1323480, 351983, 313976, 198966, 1471276, 463926, 1021430, 313220, 1331045, 3581, 938718, 453832, 239818, 649713, 937979, 67269, 1121144, 1463707, 1089122, 1547439, 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HNI_zyb09	Those sneaky bastards, no way I believe this whole thing wasn't prearranged with <PERSON>. Apple has been subject to public outcries over their greedy business models lots of times, but never did they give in so soon and easily. Either <PERSON> is some kind of head honcho of the music industry, and Apple genuinely has to respect her statement, or this whole thing was prearranged for PR.	1,841,338	[ 1840890, 1840897 ]	92	[ 1450725, 640172, 211269, 122374, 1575727, 1071165, 1448435, 846666, 436727, 1619005, 915102, 577695, 469635, 710474, 20110, 535191, 239421, 1542091, 1146893, 273764, 1234294, 5259, 1069720, 604682, 1514527, 1463864, 858734, 1347124, 840600, 1371159, 266266, 1463879, 243241, 170077, 1519145, 74704, 329816, 397841, 1713879, 1373907, 62365, 611851, 1400786, 1224275, 1127313, 1074461, 711173, 1546406, 403501, 133147, 1409409, 84917, 1093527, 1657686, 1324137, 1071045, 918329, 199017, 464156, 1764166, 1055365, 468116, 805180, 900167, 145193, 1069888, 1157636, 339506, 144635, 339732, 741404, 1011312, 701584, 852556, 313119, 85029, 808319, 270946, 632199, 812590, 1485959, 1614746, 1794550, 1622095, 795829, 693360, 20112, 1799827, 51230, 1450200, 106772, 1204069, 566080, 390482, 1516068, 1544643, 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HNI_zyb09	To be honest, what exactly did she want to accomplish with this? Where I live people are very hesitant of sharing their salary and doing something like this would be considered very rude. All it can possibly lead to is drama about salaries. Drama about why some people getting payed more then others. Should Google now start paying each and everyone exactly the same until everyone is happy? No of course not, it's no secret companies have different salaries for different employees. What matters is that YOU feel ok with what you're getting payed, not what others are earning.	1,841,339	[ 1840897, 1840895 ]	89	[ 1805425, 1385054, 1187317, 249388, 1771370, 690452, 1132735, 499136, 365465, 875554, 1162783, 263659, 1415230, 86389, 1221696, 401530, 1415229, 1201833, 1381153, 1840638, 856798, 642028, 1657050, 719037, 1535566, 1053291, 340241, 1235231, 1096505, 1139838, 112192, 1231664, 376205, 411816, 1365421, 1178794, 1681875, 605392, 958156, 75340, 690455, 1755899, 463936, 1415228, 184263, 576926, 182488, 990889, 737914, 815697, 258790, 1610324, 462171, 1142878, 422703, 534118, 1040361, 395957, 217012, 4258, 999684, 687002, 225314, 263635, 322022, 1555619, 576986, 173537, 563245, 1008137, 652614, 1039828, 1705201, 27683, 1719384, 366148, 1803858, 737911, 677244, 292659, 1777176, 28086, 289349, 315997, 849657, 1133316, 696354, 697653, 1689191, 1378181, 1262507, 907282, 666112, 1507513, 1769652, 1096050, 315998, 1188571, 805142, 1306295, 336642, 1588499, 235077, 1039827, 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HNI_zyb09	I agree with you on the benefits, but I did find it quite hard to get rid of added sugars from my diet. As you said it's basically in 90% of products you find at the grocery store, so the only way is to buy raw foods only and do a lot of cooking. I work remotely from home, so I have time to choose what to buy and time to cook everyday, but otherwise I don't think I could do it easily.	1,841,340	[ 1840893, 1840899, 1840897, 1840888, 1840895, 1840900, 1840898, 1840887 ]	12	[ 853355, 1545766, 154585, 365652, 850809, 1057086, 1046452, 698680, 1548803, 1717389, 633857, 1211338, 188481, 1364465, 1057055, 29635, 245843, 1275083, 1419291, 304131, 124380, 914382, 477376, 1516140, 1645968, 1132946, 507821, 1182648, 1799543, 1125439, 1679597, 1433077, 603708, 542728, 977554, 968883, 1796142, 337553, 1619846, 1408181, 697890, 1046140, 58020, 1419564, 110461, 293998, 188536, 1041801, 1552616, 835435, 1351248, 1807811, 1234761, 5375, 1041756, 1067555, 1301125, 11986, 218301, 1632181, 1520836, 1396469, 225098, 1274397, 579193, 1666315, 247346, 396982, 804125, 1693217, 715838, 263572, 740832, 137622, 64792, 303182, 124256, 1790050, 1049592, 1450321, 953828, 815797, 705189, 1113692, 156474, 952663, 977117, 189566, 1577119, 990973, 605279, 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HNI_zyb09	I think at this point the mobile hard- and software industry is simply much further developed and it's harder for everyone to innovate, not just for Apple. We can't expect that magic of 2007 to come back on a year to year basis. That said Apples products continue to be very solid. For me personally, MacBook Pros are in amazing state right now and OSX feels and looks great on high-dpi displays.	1,841,341	[ 1840893, 1840899 ]	0	[ 1191434, 588369, 441483, 1077915, 1276955, 1565635, 106799, 1839037, 374147, 1277179, 281376, 1044305, 1716413, 306491, 259799, 1398759, 648366, 855546, 985384, 880739, 1541920, 424346, 253096, 1090758, 559231, 1005937, 1706103, 751945, 588679, 958443, 869789, 1275618, 1815422, 597230, 1716232, 176153, 764877, 541226, 1619022, 1005938, 1456381, 839320, 1745926, 909731, 1034399, 688552, 978421, 593981, 1164126, 1048881, 1640867, 593782, 270051, 1003479, 1575350, 867221, 17100, 1639374, 1146154, 862235, 899066, 904014, 969020, 977402, 604393, 1057973, 1565638, 467723, 1286238, 1151817, 1716063, 1820257, 1102280, 1399016, 1650468, 1169872, 191697, 1405568, 1467350, 1753656, 1200653, 500655, 625075, 1542304, 1643684, 1695074, 1641430, 1582303, 1308443, 108459, 903246, 719832, 282088, 563057, 1260332, 1655793, 1299833, 1002626, 875389, 396818, 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HNI_zyb09	Of course Apple wants to sell MacBooks to developers, and I'm sure a lot of devs will happily buy it. Because many of the flaws and issues, that are notoriously being pointed out on HN/Reddit, don't really apply to the individual buyer, or are vastly exaggerated. I mean I'm a dev, and getting a couple of USB-C cables is really that hard and inconvenient? The answer you get from the online collective is yes, but in real life the buyer decides most of these things are non-issues for himself. Same thing with every Apple product as far as I can remember, always lots of controversy, everybody has a opinion on why/what went wrong, but at the end of the day it's a perfectly fine for most people (including devs).	1,841,342	[ 1840894 ]	0	[ 925626, 1132028, 46493, 849734, 588679, 1829164, 1591173, 1558749, 1797334, 1463707, 870400, 322516, 611571, 723861, 332475, 378207, 1656368, 901473, 1325316, 1503863, 1522078, 304292, 542986, 1316676, 1063736, 851988, 1165798, 588678, 543465, 741404, 897590, 791683, 1726968, 763793, 785000, 1262006, 353413, 894409, 1534970, 498888, 1424907, 517551, 1032199, 459835, 1837983, 1043944, 1630222, 750596, 1422192, 925682, 158822, 893711, 33597, 1431542, 507826, 1205910, 1021321, 100077, 1690449, 1491089, 72018, 1451606, 477201, 877148, 792217, 671116, 356745, 1238610, 1812557, 1261891, 1689500, 588680, 862251, 378048, 255765, 39193, 39029, 497543, 654681, 254975, 1566333, 1738432, 959372, 1303317, 334363, 898489, 182870, 166425, 522053, 1475889, 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HNI_zyb09	So this was about the banning of PizzaGate subreddit, and its understandable that a Reddit-Mob can be a scary thing, and needs to be dealt with somehow. But it feels Reddits moderation practices have become increasingly shady over the last couple years, and spez editing comments directly just shows how seemingly lax they are with their powers. You don't really have to be a conspiracy nut to see that places like /r/politics during the election had some very questionable moderation.	1,841,343	[ 1840895, 1840897, 1840899, 1840890, 1840900, 1840891, 1840887, 1840896 ]	103	[ 569977, 162838, 1803401, 56954, 178347, 1366735, 844166, 221418, 937048, 590528, 671101, 530280, 99887, 306961, 397600, 861199, 616301, 1621309, 514875, 1388083, 1334398, 1289202, 360683, 1239450, 802021, 591231, 1822753, 1061846, 1597951, 1211310, 1222765, 68205, 1736955, 304687, 752553, 105788, 1267707, 410255, 138394, 1172005, 1067338, 1595792, 70145, 422499, 1086226, 1552418, 1150783, 771458, 141296, 1769732, 591802, 892508, 1567109, 537204, 1795147, 131537, 632332, 1368445, 44580, 1741670, 232421, 1652862, 983205, 931132, 14409, 119080, 1100150, 44406, 1027282, 779254, 204003, 787657, 1289516, 633983, 1515755, 1325419, 209331, 814945, 1342499, 352582, 964736, 671368, 1054872, 1818471, 1189084, 1786322, 1049750, 823001, 1423315, 4410, 859516, 761213, 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HNI_zyb09	Is it? We don't have any conceivable idea on how exactly human modification might work. We like to imaging how we gonna decouple bodies and consciousness, yet we can't even grow organs in a Petri dish or figure out how things like obesity are being caused. For traveling to Mars and beyond we already have some solid conventional plans, its just a matter of committing a huge amount of resources to it.	1,841,344	[ 1840899, 1840895, 1840887, 1840897, 1840892 ]	35	[ 105234, 257641, 1189100, 1340078, 298142, 1478761, 499410, 351554, 1567620, 177824, 66359, 1145603, 837320, 645523, 258187, 1559085, 509348, 1179722, 1041842, 17938, 617597, 1281150, 105410, 1561479, 71324, 1499343, 1019699, 1591209, 582239, 673142, 960401, 253407, 1391926, 373844, 1462239, 1475308, 1077448, 100129, 1189094, 489256, 104983, 105399, 257280, 296417, 592686, 1605071, 872215, 1728301, 565573, 1091261, 943358, 280005, 1499661, 1599871, 479878, 1624838, 1066149, 828514, 280006, 622403, 71152, 610719, 1129263, 1324553, 1522883, 1112227, 244433, 1399105, 1213566, 1751541, 1158460, 867679, 1314794, 820166, 863010, 1588667, 560497, 1592013, 920080, 1810360, 1132524, 1698268, 1129075, 1304499, 1726295, 1775022, 1364344, 105413, 421577, 541103, 1256205, 378473, 1068330, 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HNI_zyb09	Just collected the black coins in 1-1, and some in 1-2. The black coins seem to be what this game really is about, and damn does it a good job with it. Actually amazed at what it does with just a 1-button input method.<p>Sad to see so many people critize the $10 price tag. Obviously that was expected, but as an iOS dev myself, it always saddens me too see the rejection of people to basically pay for anything on the AppStore.	1,841,345	[ 1840893, 1840894, 1840889, 1840890, 1840899 ]	185	[ 90790, 1642911, 1265800, 854993, 236498, 68378, 1073223, 1296688, 291827, 1696882, 373841, 1493607, 1329518, 533032, 719560, 1305084, 1039452, 187295, 109470, 419019, 1000339, 1345767, 1308629, 109370, 632971, 496106, 1046902, 1198043, 941000, 1673123, 204089, 1516037, 608603, 1139744, 1074019, 1029623, 1466965, 321140, 473641, 335155, 1766641, 1753280, 1751042, 1766647, 1287243, 754562, 314867, 1543532, 1755763, 1396272, 204114, 1483180, 1753804, 1577447, 1652814, 947515, 1346896, 917266, 1837155, 549852, 1396525, 413868, 713377, 1328562, 1144285, 1080151, 881300, 314679, 225428, 1204297, 343603, 1774743, 1790318, 1105781, 156531, 794923, 454612, 1205028, 565222, 780762, 1061582, 109471, 1775498, 373840, 287959, 1296685, 213449, 1161130, 115224, 708678, 14375, 765072, 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HNI_zyb09	I wonder if this will have an effect on how kids get into programming. Back when I was a kid we had MS-DOS, my primary motivation was to install and play games, but there was this easy built-in pathway of: Hey, you can do a lot more with this machine if you want, including making your own games.<p>Nowadays consuming and developing are so disconnected, it seems almost impossible for the younger generations to just stumble upon it like many people did back then.	1,841,346	[ 1840899, 1840893 ]	95	[ 1244173, 45959, 204537, 919158, 750283, 891845, 1127004, 508670, 987344, 1074796, 1198985, 1745882, 1574655, 687903, 595905, 1224636, 1095847, 453011, 257749, 839322, 1510505, 1551509, 274830, 969197, 687885, 182762, 188625, 1379061, 949587, 134180, 1221129, 750282, 1691542, 350907, 1334931, 382230, 72817, 1006430, 1389211, 869828, 1659858, 225204, 293664, 820873, 1805312, 731126, 746707, 36851, 1348513, 1637533, 1785348, 449722, 39358, 403194, 1424609, 1107309, 52115, 486904, 864159, 1840331, 311180, 1044979, 867790, 249344, 317041, 1009546, 418400, 250180, 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HNI_zyb09	I've been using LibGDX for a small little thing, and honestly can't recommend it. I had the app for a few years, and whenever I wanted to update things after a few months, so many things would just break. Be it the build-system, the APIs, RoboVM or some randoms project settings - it was always a headache to get it running again. When RoboVM shut down, there wasn't even any clear way to get it running on iOS again for a while, leaving me with an undeployable app.<p>If you're investing into anything serious, I would strongly recommend going with Unity over this.	1,841,347	[ 1840893, 1840889, 1840894, 1840890, 1840888 ]	29	[ 944422, 379212, 1773068, 847323, 1042688, 1042171, 434622, 123554, 191036, 363798, 280357, 1255517, 1067039, 353031, 807555, 1504117, 136272, 1041797, 1703916, 706498, 397, 1169991, 526568, 1545219, 1089134, 353021, 351722, 1074007, 1647282, 1210704, 477587, 360881, 217413, 200701, 987624, 1219299, 1005654, 1368421, 1112555, 1300595, 604340, 1595279, 107793, 974770, 967349, 1234334, 919624, 1435191, 1589099, 823560, 38573, 1511552, 1005933, 166106, 204306, 1734708, 123576, 1378943, 1094003, 217407, 464253, 1787033, 142330, 577783, 1814886, 955254, 984098, 1610748, 51354, 987375, 1675712, 351857, 1578344, 119021, 1159395, 1596016, 314679, 434292, 689130, 245767, 1596434, 414840, 629576, 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HNI_zyb09	I thought these two were pretty good:<p>“Bad programmers worry about the code. Good programmers worry about data structures and their relationships.” — <PERSON><p>That's how I always feel when people have lengthy discussions about spaces vs tabs. Good truth coming from the man himself.<p>“Sufficiently advanced trolling is indistinguishable from thought leadership.”<p>Kinda scary true, when you see how some online communities, that started mostly as trolling, became real idiologys over time.	1,841,348	[ 1840890 ]	243	[ 852038, 1529870, 156829, 1628167, 1683594, 895214, 1517106, 1011270, 1683637, 927069, 1344818, 1481674, 600965, 471768, 471732, 1005978, 1517227, 830381, 259733, 804252, 1453904, 1793575, 251857, 398832, 415246, 1487181, 867231, 1287471, 878736, 46538, 1210438, 1677884, 800231, 651197, 252124, 1024416, 1798449, 1600303, 612264, 955624, 775614, 1204901, 466416, 856694, 18246, 177587, 633597, 51612, 1695063, 739868, 776929, 685239, 1826147, 760428, 468760, 1440156, 1430149, 319566, 685250, 4921, 316080, 776933, 244629, 991064, 633729, 58954, 852015, 1726985, 861524, 1130244, 680505, 259549, 247114, 516000, 1820408, 1805954, 1284525, 762002, 242975, 1825007, 600215, 615231, 1304929, 493204, 689420, 610584, 429270, 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HNI_zyb09	It's not that bad. The only thing Google/FB/Twitter gets to know is that a user Y is using app X. Nothing more, and not detailed usage stats, just the basic fact.<p>For that they handle the complete user registration, recovery & auth process for you, with all the work and pain attached to it.<p>Granted if your OAuth provider were really evil, they could log into the users App X account and access whatever data he has inside the app, so you have decide if that a concern or not.	1,841,349	[ 1840894, 1840900, 1840896, 1840893, 1840890, 1840895, 1840891 ]	174	[ 15368, 1656903, 81085, 1415145, 99304, 480137, 1749151, 1573732, 927486, 1121083, 80146, 1479173, 1042835, 990092, 1693999, 972079, 577759, 577332, 310375, 1532305, 1188583, 1195359, 1739723, 577331, 250234, 743582, 1024784, 355768, 1113377, 82717, 480131, 113603, 1367124, 17480, 844861, 1762480, 1808899, 144189, 1377342, 561029, 1504692, 1753204, 1450406, 806602, 436018, 1639861, 520096, 1083419, 927610, 1231642, 680569, 122413, 888107, 1557238, 755416, 756459, 462346, 424374, 270114, 939175, 1699664, 527766, 761725, 1102675, 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HNI_zwtaylor

I hope you're right, there _must_ be other components to their business model to warrant $116m in investment capital. At face value this all appears beyond foolish, though I'm rooting for them to make me eat my words down the road. " ;21 Inc., formerly 21e6, announced it had raised US$116m in venture capital, the largest investment yet accumulated by a startup in the digital currency industry. 21 Inc.'s lead backers include American Andreessen Horowitz and RRE Venture, Chinese Yuan Capital, as well as strategic investor and chipmaker Qualcomm Inc. " ;<a href="http://_URL_0_/news/113668/bitcoin-startup-21-inc-reveals-industry-record-funding-of-116-million-dollars" rel="nofollow">http://_URL_0_/news/113668/bitcoin-startup-21-inc-...</a>

1,841,250

[ 1840795 ]

37

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HNI_zwtaylor

It doesn't seem to me like he has an agenda. Keep in mind that the " ;duck boats " ; are pretty much universally reviled by natives in Philadelphia; they are loud, feel out of place in the neighborhoods they operate in and are full of gawking tourists.The incident in 2010 he mentioned was pretty big news in Philly. Just seems like a concerned reporter who was at the right place at the right time and noticed a series of recurring events with these boats.

1,841,251

null

217

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HNI_zx2c4

Confirmed:<pre><code> zx2c4@thinkpad ~ $ whois _URL_1_ %% _ _ %% This is the AFNIC Whois server. _ | |___ ____ _(_)___ %% | || / -_) (_- < || | (_- < %% complete date format : DD/MM/YYYY \__/\___| /__/\_,_|_/__/ %% short date format : DD/MM ___ _ _ ___ ___ _ _ ___ %% version : FRNIC-2.5 | _| | | . | . \| | | | __| %% | |_| | | /| |_| | _| %% Rights restricted by copyright. |___|_|_|_|_|_\_\|___|_|___| %% See http://_URL_0_/afnic/web/mentions-legales-whois_en %% %% Use '-h' option to obtain more information about this service. %% %% [<IP_ADDRESS><PHONE_NUMBER> REQUEST] > > -V Md5.1 _URL_1_ %% %% RL Net [##########] - RL IP [#########.] %%</code></pre>

1,841,252

[ 1840810, 1840819, 1840839, 1840808, 1840853, 1840826, 1840812, 1840806, 1840842 ]

2

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HNI_zx2c4

Um, no. This isn't a throwaway account. This is my account - the username I use for everything. Type it into google. It's been my handle since I was super young. Whois the .com of it - I registered it in 2000.IN FACT the mailing list archives of the pass mailing list happen to be at that domain. Here's the relevant post: <a href="http://_URL_0_/pipermail/password-store/2015-January/001336.html" rel="nofollow">http://_URL_0_/pipermail/password-store/2015-January...</a> This is from a CC that went to the GnuPG mailing list.

1,841,253

[ 1840812, 1840861, 1840819, 1840810, 1840842, 1840826, 1840808 ]

45

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HNI_zx2c4

Back in the day when Skype was a pretty cool peer-to-peer encrypted mesh network, that successfully evaded firewalls and traffic analysis, I wrote a tool to proxy Internet traffic ontop of the Skype mesh. I was quite young when I wrote it, but I managed to dust off an old demo screencast I made (and convert the swf to an mp4), which gave me a laugh. If you're curious:<a href="http://_URL_0_/skypeproxydemo.mp4" rel="nofollow">http://_URL_0_/skypeproxydemo.mp4</a>

1,841,254

[ 1840819, 1840831 ]

2

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HNI_zx2c4

I use OpenVPN to tunnel iSCSI on a remote machine. Then I mount the iSCSI device using LUKS. Finally I rsync into the LUKS mount point. Encrypted, incremental, bla bla. Works pretty well. Here's the script:<pre><code> zx2c4@thinkpad ~ $ cat Projects/_URL_0_ #!/bin/sh cd " ;$(readlink -f " ;$(dirname " ;$0 " ;) " ;) " ; if [ $UID -ne 0 ]; then echo " ;You must be root. " ; exit 1 fi umount() { if ! /bin/umount " ;$1 " ;; then sleep 5 if ! /bin/umount " ;$1 " ;; then sleep 10 /bin/umount " ;$1 " ; fi fi } unwind() { echo " ;[-] ERROR: unwinding and quitting. " ; sleep 3 trace sync trace umount /mnt/mybackupserver-backup trace cryptsetup luksClose mybackupserver-backup || { sleep 5; trace cryptsetup luksClose mybackupserver-backup; } trace iscsiadm -m node -U all trace kill %1 exit 1 } trace() { echo " ;[+] $@ " ; " ;$@ " ; } RSYNC_OPTS= " ;-i -rlptgoXDHxv --delete-excluded --delete --progress $RSYNC_OPTS " ; trap unwind INT TERM trace modprobe libiscsi trace modprobe scsi_transport_iscsi trace modprobe iscsi_tcp iscsid -f & sleep 1 trace iscsiadm -m discovery -t st -p mybackupserver.somehost.somewere -P 1 -l sleep 5 trace cryptsetup --key-file /etc/dmcrypt/backup-mybackupserver-key luksOpen /dev/disk/by-uuid/10a126a2-c991-49fc-89bf-8d621a73dd36 mybackupserver-backup || unwind trace fsck -a /dev/mapper/mybackupserver-backup || unwind trace mount -v /dev/mapper/mybackupserver-backup /mnt/mybackupserver-backup || unwind trace rsync $RSYNC_OPTS --exclude=/usr/portage/distfiles --exclude=/home/zx2c4/.cache --exclude=/var/tmp / /mnt/mybackupserver-backup/root || unwind trace rsync $RSYNC_OPTS /mnt/storage/Archives/ /mnt/mybackupserver-backup/archives || unwind trace sync trace umount /mnt/mybackupserver-backup trace cryptsetup luksClose mybackupserver-backup trace iscsiadm -m node -U all trace kill %1</code></pre>

1,841,255

[ 1840819, 1840815, 1840810, 1840808, 1840806 ]

194

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HNI_zx2c4

<pre><code> > " ;Software design and programming were considered clerical work. " ; </code></pre> I realize that there's a certain art of code, and even a science that goes into the underlying algorithms, languages, and methodologies. Indeed I've spent the majority of my life now in one way or another transfixed by software development.But it seems to me that the vast amount of code written is still, in fact, " ;clerical work " ;. Whether it's gluing together enterpriseBeanBuilderExpressionListMochaBusinessLogicAuditingFactories, or hooking up your node.js to your express.js to your bootstrap.js to transfer JSON over REST into your DOM, or even converting your 4000 character, 50 pipe bash one-liners into nicely polished scripts that properly account for exit codes, handle non-standard locations for sysfs, and work on a multitude of platforms, at the end of the day, a lot of this really does come down to clerical-style work. The difference is that the language, terminology, abstractions, and platforms are more obtuse than the previous generation's clerical work. The nouns are different and strange, but the predicates are all the same.There are indeed wondrous areas in computer science and software engineering, but I think for most of us, we're just doing fairly menial work. We feel smart doing it, because it's still new enough that the objects and content of it are still uncustomary for most folks, and in fact the best of secretaries and clerks have indeed possessed great intelligence. But at the end of the day, we need to recognize that most of what we do is mere clerical work, glorified only by the odd shapes of the more obscure symbol keys on our keyboards.ducks " ;I swear, by clerical, I meant the clergy! " ;ducks again

1,841,256

[ 1840853, 1840845, 1840824, 1840865, 1840861, 1840815, 1840828, 1840802, 1840842, 1840805, 1840826 ]

196

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HNI_zx2c4

Oh god. Just checked out this dbgr situation. Looks like they allow you to run arbitrary code inside one of their docker instances. DISASTER.Never ever use docker for security. With a Linux kernel local root exploit (which are indeed plentiful), one can escape from a docker container into the initial namespaces of the system.It doesn't even look like they bother keeping their kernel up to date either.DISASTER!I liked the approach I saw at a couple other sites -- compile an interpreter to JavaScript with emscripten, and have all the code execute client side.

1,841,257

null

69

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HNI_zx2c4

How " ;natively " ; does this deal with GMail? My experience with most non-google mail clients is that the GMail support is almost always broken or ugly in some way. Does it archive correctly? Label correct? Does it make use of GMail's IMAP extensions for doing the right things? If not, how does it work? What level of integration into the GMail workflow is there? I have for a long time desired a good desktop client for GMail, but all of them rely on an unacceptably bad mapping between IMAP and GMail idioms that I still have not found an acceptable one. How does N1 differ?

1,841,258

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149

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HNI_zx2c4

Wow awesome. If this works entirely locally, this is something I've been looking for for a long time. I might wind up making command line utilities out of it. Or even apply for a Nylas job. Email is something I care about an awful lot.If, on the other hand, this makes use of some Nylas-hosted server, I'm a bit bummed out, since this would mean all my data is transferred through Nylas servers.Which is it? Or should I just bite the bullet and read the source?

1,841,259

null

149

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HNI_zx2c4

It's a conversation that's been going on for a long time now over various channels but has/had mostly stagnated into a disappointing lull of complacency. The <PERSON> results were a big wake up to that, and my own finding yesterday was the final straw: fresh ideas and voices on how to carry the project toward maturation are quite necessary, as well as smart folks like yourself becoming interested in reviewing the source code.

1,841,260

[ 1840853, 1840865, 1840824, 1840815, 1840802, 1840808, 1840845, 1840861, 1840805, 1840833, 1840826, 1840803, 1840842, 1840837, 1840813, 1840828, 1840816, 1840854 ]

196

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HNI_zx2c4

This is really extremely nice. Some questions:I noticed that after adding a folder to the library, it simply adds all the filepaths in that folder to _URL_0_. It doesn't cache any of the metadata. This means that it has to rescan everytime. I'm wondering what thoughts went into that design decision. On the one hand, it's very easy to manage, since it's just a list of files. On the other hand, for large collections, startup time can be considerable. I have 109GiB of music, but with a top of the line SSD, it only took ten or fifteen seconds to scan the whole thing, which isn't bad.On a similar note, it appears that because it adds all the files to the _URL_0_ file, and not the top level directory I added, it doesn't have any support for noticing when new files are added to my ~/music folder. This means I have to re-add ~/music when I add files to it. I guess that's not too bad. And I assume it won't add duplicates or anything if I re-add the root level directory. But what about when I remove items? Will it be smart enough to detect that they're not there? (An algorithm like: " ;I just traversed a directory for which there is an existing file entry in _URL_0_, but during this traversal I didn't see it. I should therefore remove it. " ;)

1,841,261

[ 1840837, 1840826, 1840853, 1840839, 1840819 ]

194

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HNI_zx2c4

Does cling support a C99 or C11 mode?A lot of times, for C development and related endeavors, I want to quickly determine the size of a struct or do some quick tests with strange arithmetic or casting or whatever else. Usually I just write a tiny test program, compile it, run it, and look at my printf output. This is pretty slow though. Having a C REPL would be quite nice.It would be nice to see a wrapper around GCC that does this, for, say, a kernel source REPL.

1,841,262

[ 1840815, 1840865, 1840808, 1840853, 1840803, 1840819, 1840837, 1840845, 1840828, 1840831, 1840813, 1840824, 1840802, 1840833 ]

167

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896711, 1197144, 747103, 809081, 1806486, 1747167, 1021324, 1765434, 1256418, 1469984, 817843, 506776, 644674, 1380249, 251475, 874355, 644451, 954882, 134122, 1592568, 578126, 544138, 1723361, 1413034, 190653, 964597, 307387, 1688856, 990573, 611760, 1465328, 415352, 140116, 1370334, 860207, 1341627, 790948, 495860, 1334338, 1199046, 625254, 1253773, 866265, 1700105, 1126831, 151615, 882120, 644447, 1185303, 913680, 298269, 998169, 1811828, 1456474, 1115184, 1605261, 951776, 1432608, 147044, 204298, 807630, 762710, 536707, 290602, 927039, 1090347, 20907, 336746, 1324931, 1608689, 1351683, 456858, 1667037, 1575321, 1021601, 336452 ]

HNI_zx2c4

Another service using pathetic password hashing:<a href="https://_URL_0_/hmngwy/_URL_1_/blob/master/lib/ssh/exec.js#L231" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/hmngwy/_URL_1_/blob/master/lib/ssh/exec...</a><pre><code> else if(command[0] === 'password') { if(args.length===0) { stream.write('→ You need to specify a password.\n\r'); stream.end(); return; } var hash = require('sha256'); var payload = args; var salt = schemas.randomString(32); userMeta.user.hash = hash(payload + salt); userMeta.user.salt = salt; userMeta.user.token = schemas.randomString(64); stream.write('… Saving new password'+LB); userMeta.user.save(function(err, saved){ if(err){ stream.write('→ Password update failed.'+LB); } var response = []; response.push( " ;→ password for " ;+saved.username+ " ; updated " ;+LB); stream.write(response.join(LB)); stream.exit(0); stream.end(); }); }</code></pre>

1,841,263

[ 1840819, 1840812, 1840810, 1840808 ]

57

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HNI_zx2c4

This is great to hear. I'm glad the project is progressing.For those not in the know, JMAP is a protocol for mail that, unlike IMAP, has threads and labels built-in at its core. In other words, Gmail without Gmail.And it's about time somebody came along and built something sane for this.There have been a lot of valiant attempts at this. Thunderbird has a few buggy extensions that attempt it. Notmuch is a very well written library and command line MUA with a very fast on-disk storage format (with ncurses, emacs, and vim interfaces, as well as neat FUSE file system toys), but it is not a protocol, and therefore does not scale well beyond the limited set of MUAs for it that mostly need a shell or a flimsy web app. Mailpile is an attempt at making a Web 2.0 style Gmail clone, but it's only an MUA and the on-disk format is flimsy at best.JMAP defines the protocol first. Then, multiple people can take a stab at the most sane implementation. I like this approach quite a bit.

1,841,264

null

149

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HNI_zx2c4

I switched to Google Domains a while ago for personal use. It's a bummer that yet another important thing is centralized in my Google account, but seeing as Google already handles critical things (email -- > account resets), I don't introduce an additional vulnerability by hosting my domains with them. Hopefully, by now, their two factor situation is sufficient, and their manual processes of sending scans of passports undergoes sufficient scrutiny. Anybody have any information on this? How strong is Google account security these days?

1,841,265

[ 1840812, 1840861, 1840810, 1840805, 1840819, 1840842, 1840864, 1840824, 1840826, 1840839, 1840806, 1840853, 1840820, 1840822, 1840845, 1840831, 1840862 ]

45

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HNI_zx2c4

> I doubt thatJust tried for a few minutes all 3 of them. The C2S is a C2550, and the C2M and C2L are C2750. They each appear to be bare metal, and not virtualized. The VPS offering, which is advertised as a VPS, appears to be virtualized inside of a C2750. The C1 is a Marvell Armada 370/XP, a bare metal ARMv7l board. > I would consider their offers " ;ad-supported " ;.This also is not my experience. I haven't ever received spam from them, nor received advertising. > Avotons are very slowThis part of what you wrote is true, unfortunately. :(

1,841,266

[ 1840819, 1840810 ]

39

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HNI_zx2c4

I got super excited at first, but then...The servers are based on: <a href="http://_URL_1_/products/33927/Intel-Xeon-Processor-E5420-12M-Cache-2_50-GHz-1333-MHz-FSB" rel="nofollow">http://_URL_1_/products/33927/Intel-Xeon-Processor-E54...</a> and <a href="http://_URL_1_/products/47927/Intel-Xeon-Processor-L5630-12M-Cache-2_13-GHz-5_86-GTs-Intel-QPI" rel="nofollow">http://_URL_1_/products/47927/Intel-Xeon-Processor-L56...</a>These are super ancient.If you're looking for affordable north american servers, OVH has the Kimsufi outlet which is cheaper and better hardware. They've got a data center in Canada and will give you American IPs from their AS in Newark, NJ:<a href="https://_URL_2_/us/en/" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_2_/us/en/</a>The parent company of scaleway, _URL_0_, also has some inexpensive offerings, but the servers are in France which might be a deal breaker for you. (Delimiter seems to be in Atlanta.)

1,841,267

[ 1840853, 1840819 ]

39

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HNI_zx2c4

There are a lot more problems than you think with letting users have arbitrary code execution. And no, Docker is not an acceptable security solution for this, since it's most certainly possible to break out of containers. Even if you're using a dedicated VM, this is not a good idea. And from a brief look at glot-code-runner, it doesn't seem like there's even that much built in to protect against various forms of use.A more sane design would be to use something like emscripten to enable all these different languages to run in the browser.

1,841,268

null

69

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HNI_zx2c4

From TFA: " ;Shortened Article LengthAnother common piece of feedback was that our content at times can be overwhelming because of its length and that long articles are more difficult to navigate and find what you’re looking for. To address this, we’ve broken down many longer articles into smaller logical steps and provided Previous and Next buttons at the bottom of articles to navigate between steps in a multi-part tutorial as shown below. " ;Sounds like a race to the bottom. I very much prefer long single-page articles.

1,841,269

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48

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HNI_zx2c4

In case anyone's curious, I've been using Makefiles for web development for a long time. The src files of a webpage are un-minified javascript, less/sass files, and thumbnails. The dst files are the minified/built/thumbnailed output. This suits Make particularly well.<a href="https://_URL_1_/zx2c4/11de49b2780c787b3ed5e1ee39485747" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_1_/zx2c4/11de49b2780c787b3ed5e1ee394857...</a>That's the Makefile I use on <a href="https://_URL_0_/" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/</a> if you're interested. It also has in it some very simple ssh/rsync deployment mechanism. Since the deployment relies on the built files, I can simply run:<pre><code> $ make deploy </code></pre> And the entire webpage is built and deployed in one step.Every webpage I manage has a variant of this, with all sorts of rules for building and managing things. It turns out to be much easier than grunt or ant or random bash scripts or vagrant or whatever else kids use these days.

1,841,270

[ 1840853, 1840808, 1840815, 1840865, 1840826 ]

202

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HNI_zx2c4

I don't know anything about the politics involved, and I don't even use nano (vim guy myself), but I just ran this out of curiosity:<pre><code> zx2c4@thinkpad ~/nano $ git shortlog -sne --since '3 years ago' 1298 Benno Schulenberg < <EMAIL_ADDRESS> > 64 Chris Allegretta < <EMAIL_ADDRESS> > 6 Jordi Mallach < <EMAIL_ADDRESS> > 3 Mike Frysinger < <EMAIL_ADDRESS> > 3 Mike Scalora < <EMAIL_ADDRESS> > 2 Rishabh Dave < <EMAIL_ADDRESS><PERSON> < [email protected] > 6 <PERSON> < [email protected] > 3 Mike Frysinger < [email protected] > 3 <PERSON> < [email protected] > 2 <PERSON> < [email protected] > </code></pre> Seems like <PERSON> is clearly the driving force behind the project.

1,841,271

[ 1840853 ]

105

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HNI_zx2c4

Oh cool you came to the kernel recipes talk. Much has progressed since then.I wrote an email on LKML and netdev today to <PERSON>, the network subsystem maintainer. It's not ready for a [PATCH] set now, but it is ready to get initial feedback from them, so that I can start to get things ready for upstreaming. So: that's on the roadmap and a primary objective!

1,841,272

[ 1840865, 1840815 ]

123

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HNI_zx2c4

Speed, simplicity.It's not possible to do highspeed crypto from userspace while still integrating with the usual networking stack. Tun devices result in copies and context switches which makes things quite slow.This also adds quite a bit of simplicity.But sure, I agree, it's scary. But not nearly as scary as the obscenely huge xfrm/ipsec layer in the kernel. Or the dozens of other kernel tunneling deivces available. And I dare even say it's not as scary as most userspace VPN solutions like OpenVPN which are massive code bases. WireGuard, in contrast, aims to be quite minimal in its codebase, so that it can be audited by an individual.I didn't make the title of this HN post, unfortunately. But do note: there _will_ be userspace implementations of WireGuard. It's most certainly not tied to the kernel. It's just that the OP saw me present at a kernel conf about it. :P

1,841,273

[ 1840808, 1840819 ]

2

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HNI_zx2c4

> Does the server get a separate wg interface for every client that connects?No. Each wg interface has a public/private key. It then has a list of peers' public keys and associated allowed IPs. By tying each public key to the allowed IPs of that public key, you can be sure that if a packet comes from wg0 and comes from a particular src IP, it comes from who you want. So no need for a new wg0 for each peer. > Does this do a DH key agreement to guarantee forward secrecy or does it literally encrypt the packet with the peers public key?It uses a 1-RTT ECDH key agreement based on the Noise Protocol Framework, with identity hiding, perfect forward secrecy, and so forth. So, it does what you hoped it does. :) > Phase3 DMVPNI'm not familiar with this, but I'll read up on it. Just found a large cisco document describing it. I suspect that " ;automatic discovery " ; wouldn't be very much to my taste, but I'll read up on it before dismissing it wholesale.

1,841,274

[ 1840810, 1840819, 1840839, 1840808, 1840831, 1840806, 1840812, 1840815, 1840865 ]

2

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HNI_zx2c4

> Just remember to aid others' verification efforts later on by keeping it modular, minimal shared state, simple constructions in code, and so on. Whatever passes through a decent static analysis tool.Yes this absolutely is the goal. I'm trying to keep the codebase as small and clear as possible. > Design by ContractWorking out the precise pre and post conditions of every state would indeed be worthwhile. For all state transitions of the protocol, I've worked out by hand every possible combination and accounted it for it. I should publicize this work (i.e. type up my handwritten notes), and then let others join building on top of it.

1,841,275

[ 1840808, 1840819, 1840865 ]

213

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HNI_zx2c4

> How do you deal with MTU? OpenVPN's handing is particularly bad [1]?MTU is dealt with the same way as other kernel space tunneling devices. > Is the whole protocol in-kernel or just the data plane?All of it, which is why there's so much emphasis on simplicity. > For admins who want to provision large number of clients, do you ever plan to implement some kind of certificate hierarchy?Rather, the goal is to make the kernel interface very simple and minimal, so that admins can then glue ontop whatever situation they want. This could be certificates, or pigeons, but the important thing is that it's a layer ontop (in userspace), and not intimately bound to the core.

1,841,276

[ 1840819, 1840865, 1840811, 1840815, 1840802, 1840810, 1840803, 1840839, 1840820, 1840808, 1840806 ]

176

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HNI_zx2c4

Because it's necessary for any reasonable performance. If you're concerned about this, you might have several heart attacks when you look at the obscene amount of code that IPsec has in the kernel. IPsec is the only other alternative for high speed VPNs, and it's frighteningly complex, both in deployment and in codebase.WireGuard, on the contrary, is around 4000 lines of core code. This is super short, and allows for a single individual to audit it. By focusing on simplicity and ease-of-auditability, I hope to achieve something that can be considered secure.Compare this to the massive codebase of OpenVPN/OpenSSL and the various other userspace (read: slow as mollasses) VPNs. WireGuard is considerably shorter and simpler than those too.Also, keep in mind that on Linux, jumping from userspace to ring0 execution isn't exactly difficult. So in practice I'm not sure it matters.I make a living by exploiting kernels. This makes me very aware of the questions associated with running this in the kernel. I've tried to write WireGuard using my experience breaking similar codebases; WireGuard is short enough that it should receive the thorough attention that this sort of software deserves. By focusing on simplicity, I think we can in time achieve something quite trustworthy.Finally, there will be a (necessarily lower speed) cross platform implementation released that's written in Rust. At the end of the day I suspect that all parties will find themselves pleased.

1,841,277

[ 1840808, 1840819 ]

2

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HNI_zx2c4

Replay attacks don't work because of the nonce, so that's handled successfully.But an attacker with an active man in the middle position might change the outer (unencrypted) src IP of a packet. However, that src will need to be able to produce authentic replies; otherwise the session will quickly be deemed invalid, so that mitigates any potential very oddball amplification attacks you could dream up. And regardless, an attacker with this kind of active man in the middle can already drop packets at will, so this isn't a vulnerability.

1,841,278

[ 1840819, 1840812, 1840808, 1840831, 1840806, 1840810 ]

2

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HNI_zx2c4

The cipher suite is part of the Noise preamble, so all operations are crytographically bound to the cipher suite to prevent against related-algo attacks. WireGuard itself has no plans for cipher agility, something that is considered an anti-feature. If these ciphers are ever considered problematic, we'll change them and release a new version (with an incremented preamble), and the new set of ciphers will be similarly non-configurable.Fortunately AVX2-accelerated (and soon AVX512-accelerated) ChaPoly is super fast in pretty much all hardware.

1,841,279

[ 1840808 ]

213

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HNI_zx2c4

The community's reaction seems absurd to me.For whatever reason, the device only exposes some sort of RAID controller to the OS, and for whatever reason, there's no working option for exposing a more standard AHCI interface instead. The problem is that Linux doesn't (yet) have a driver for that RAID controller.Okay, great. Linux doesn't yet support particular piece of hardware. News at 11.Just like usual, if you want odd hardware to work on Linux, you'll have to write some drivers. That's just how it is. This is nothing new or scandalous. The reasons why Lenovo doesn't support AHCI don't matter. They don't, so now somebody must write a driver for what they do support. Once that happens, nobody will complain anymore. It's that simple. Nothing is being locked with Secure Boot; nothing is being locked with crypto; there is no DRM at play. If you want hardware support, write a driver.As for all the Lenovo-bashing going on here... My personal experience with my new Thinkpad P50 has been overwhelmingly positive. It's working on Gentoo Linux entirely: <a href="https://_URL_0_/wiki/Lenovo_ThinkPad_P50" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/wiki/Lenovo_ThinkPad_P50</a>

1,841,280

[ 1840808, 1840819, 1840853 ]

176

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HNI_zx2c4

> This isn't linux's fault for not supporting some non-standard raid driver, > this is lenovos fault for not allowing users to change the bios settings to non-raid.Lenovo made a computer that exposes hardware to the OS for which Linux does not yet have drivers. They could have exposed a more standard interface, but they didn't. I guess this is their fault, okay. But again, what's the big deal? What's next? You'll be upset when Synaptics releases a new touchpad with a different protocol, for which Linux doesn't yet have a driver? You'll scream and complain, " ;they could have supported the other protocol! they could have unlocked it! it was just a few bits inside the internal SPI flash! " ; Okay. But they didn't. Now write a driver if you want it to work.I'd be upset if they used some kind of crypto secure boot situation to lock down the device. This seems very far from that, however. > Also, just because you are been using a Thinkpad sucessfully > (which is largely been immune from the issues we are talking > about compared to the rest of lenovo line), to use that to > dismiss the very real issues regarding lenovo's recent moves > is disingenuous at best.I didn't mean to dismiss anything except for some comments I've seen in which people said Thinkpads are awful on Linux. Thought I'd chime in to offer a differing experience.

1,841,281

[ 1840808, 1840853, 1840819, 1840824, 1840812, 1840828, 1840815, 1840804, 1840845 ]

254

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HNI_zx2c4

I'm on my phone right now, and just skimmed that thread for about 10 seconds, but it reminded me of a commit I saw a few days ago when skimming another page for 10 seconds. All that skimming appears to be paying off. Maybe <PERSON> is a skimmer too...<a href="https://_URL_0_/chromium/src/+/2962c9c21ab9dd1ebd407f7dcda01c817e4f75da" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/chromium/src/+/2962c9c21ab...</a>The original poster appears to be hit by a bug that was fixed by this commit, which is a part of the latest Chromium release. Just a bug that was fixed... no controversy.

1,841,282

[ 1840853 ]

86

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HNI_zx2c4

" ;We then modified the inline encryption block driver to pass this to the hardware. As with ext4 encryption, keys are managed by the Linux keyring. To see our implementation, take a look at the source code for the Pixel kernel. " ;It doesn't sound like they got these changes into mainline. They link here to their source: <a href="https://_URL_0_/kernel/msm/+/android-msm-marlin-3.18-nougat-dr1/fs/ext4/crypto_key.c" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/kernel/msm/+/android-msm-ma...</a>From that file:<pre><code> /* TODO(mhalcrow): Just for proof-of-concept */ </code></pre> WHOOPS!

1,841,283

[ 1840819, 1840810, 1840812, 1840865, 1840808 ]

176

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HNI_zx2c4

A 128-bit key is more than plenty; don't be ridiculous.The prior partial sha1/md5 implementation usage was pretty dubious.Siphash has significant performance improvements for things like syncookies and secure sequence numbers.Your comment about knowing the address of the key and taking it out of kernel memory... wtf? If you can read arbitrary kernel memory, it's already game over. The whole attack model relies on ring 0 being ring 0.

1,841,284

[ 1840808, 1840819 ]

213

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HNI_zx2c4

Sorry but you still haven't substantiated your argument with any such " ;proof " ;.It looks like you also made a " ;prediction " ; about what's going to be decided by people who certainly aren't you in the future.Got a cryptographically secure PRF that's faster than Siphash for small inputs and has undergone extensive cryptanalysis? If so, I'm all ears. If not, get lost, troll.There's a real use case for a secure PRF fast for small inputs. That's why this code has been added.

1,841,285

[ 1840808 ]

213

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HNI_zx2c4

The part that really got me was that after I had this terrible impression from reading the source, the developer wrote on the bug report: " ;We have a largely undocumented, untested, and not well-understood code base of about 19 ksloc (C). " ;Oh lord. Then another zinger from the same author: " ;Tox provides some strong security guarantees. We haven't got to the point where we can enumerate them properly, given the general lack of understanding of the code and specification. " ;Stay away!

1,841,286

[ 1840808 ]

243

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HNI_zx2c4

" ;He says that is impossible and you need B's key to impersonate B when talking to A. " ; Indeed this is what you'd expect out of any secure handshake, right? But that's not the case with the novice Tox one:The handshake depends on forming a shared secret. They do by computing an ECDH, which has the property:ECDH(private A, public B) = ECDH(private B, public A)So, if you control private A, you can form the shared secret that A relies on for verifying anybody else's identity. Reasonable AKEs protect against this; Tox's naive one does not. So, instead of requiring two compromised keys for a man in the middle between one peer pairs (A < -- > B), you only need one compromised key for a man in the middle between infinite key pairs (A < -- > {everybody}).

1,841,287

[ 1840808, 1840819, 1840811, 1840812, 1840861, 1840810 ]

213

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HNI_zx2c4

> Again, I can understand that such a statement incites fear, but saying anything else would be a lie.Thanks for the honesty. It's very much appreciated. I'd hate for somebody to somehow miss critical facts like these, and make a dangerous decision for themselves. > If your intention is to incite rage and hatredWhat a mystifying insinuation, especially toward somebody who actually took the time to try and write a clear explanation of the vulnerability and what KCI is and how resistance to it is an expectation of any modern AKE, etc. Such subtle jabs and hostility toward well-intentioned bug reporters doesn't inspire much faith.

1,841,288

[ 1840808 ]

158

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HNI_zx2c4

" ;Firstly…lets get something straight., The ‘cleverest’ programmers are not usually ‘hackers’. Firstly, its much easier to break something than build it. You build software with 100,000 lines of code and 1 line has a potential exploit? you did a good job 99,999 times, versus a hacker who finds that one exploit. " ;Having done a fair bit of both over the last two decades, I'm afraid I have to disagree here...Writing good solid code is a skill, gained with focus and experience.Reversing, auditing, exploiting are also on their own difficult skills, gained with focus and experience.Saying one is " ;much easier " ; than the other is to entirely misunderstand either building or hacking or both.

1,841,289

[ 1840808, 1840853, 1840824, 1840845, 1840842, 1840802, 1840861, 1840815, 1840811, 1840865, 1840826 ]

196

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113312, 21034, 1239738, 70969, 230054, 1562976, 1824606, 1759232, 190633, 533701, 1533996, 511272, 334799, 70711, 28114, 772520, 969744, 363640, 1447671, 225122, 1630211, 1378484, 1169585, 493700, 289323, 1511984, 1662472, 733447, 1562139, 525438, 1633706, 1643567, 1671418, 292423, 581790, 1367371, 362854, 1736799, 1494277, 1464690, 793654, 433468, 318578, 1382435, 471800, 416208, 581842, 1176503, 1612379, 354151, 812215, 319579, 646823, 1679678, 1423139, 918039, 254455, 1297590, 1656691, 1502651, 1681785, 1170989, 1374639, 569756, 525760, 284292, 1428336, 1293590, 1100020, 598130, 532182, 1467158, 1021187, 334902, 1618471 ]

HNI_zx2c4

> Second, with all due respect to the original author <PERSON> (who is currently working on the very promising WireGuard project)Indeed I am working on WireGuard. But I haven't forgotten pass. We're currently working on a new release. > the project proved to be a wild bunch of hotwired bash scripts that mostly looked like they were written as a one-off jobI very much disagree with this silliness.

1,841,290

[ 1840808 ]

243

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HNI_zx2c4

One step is making sure that the crypto isn't bogus. That's what this formal verification is about here.The next step would be writing an implementation in a language that's verifiable -- such as F* [1] -- and then using that to output actually verified binaries. People are indeed working on this kind of thing, to the point where even the primitives are being generated in this way, such as the HACL* and Vale projects [2] [3]. These are in service of making a verified TLS stack. It's nicely modularized and some of this might, at some point in time, be used for a verified WireGuard implementation. Or, alternatively, other unrelated methods for that. These are exciting times in the formal methods space.In any case, this paper is about the first -- and incredibly important -- step of that kind of journey: making sure the crypto constructions WireGuard uses are top notch and actually has the super strong security properties we want it to have.[1] <a href="https://_URL_1_/" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_1_/</a> [2] <a href="https://_URL_0_/mitls/hacl-star" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/mitls/hacl-star</a> [3] <a href="https://_URL_0_/project-everest/vale" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/project-everest/vale</a>

1,841,291

[ 1840808, 1840819 ]

213

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HNI_zx2c4

I've tested WireGuard against kernel 4.2.8 with success. It should work for the latest of each minor kernel version from 3.10 up to present. (Probably you should not be using 4.2.0 for anything at all, considering the 4.2 branch wasn't even a longterm stable branch and is already quite old and filled with bugs and vulns. But I just tested on 4.2.0 and it worked too with WireGuard.)Yes, WireGuard uses Noise, plus other things. For more information, there's the WireGuard paper [1].[1] <a href="https://_URL_0_/papers/wireguard.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/papers/wireguard.pdf</a>

1,841,292

[ 1840819, 1840808, 1840815, 1840839, 1840803, 1840810, 1840806, 1840802 ]

176

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HNI_zx2c4

Sounds like you're using some Frankenstein kernel. But asking for tech support and posting random errors on hacker news comments is nearly always fruitless. You can write to the mailing list [1], or ask in #wireguard on Freenode. We'll be happy to help you there. Alternatively, if you're in a sensitive environment, you can always write directly to team {at] wireguard ^d0t^ com.[1] <a href="https://_URL_0_/mailman/listinfo/wireguard" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/mailman/listinfo/wireguard</a>

1,841,293

[ 1840819 ]

176

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HNI_zx2c4

Probably the spthy code isn't the best as a reference for building an implementation. For that I'd recommend:<a href="https://_URL_0_/papers/wireguard.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/papers/wireguard.pdf</a><a href="https://_URL_0_/protocol/" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/protocol/</a><a href="http://_URL_2_/noise.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://_URL_2_/noise.pdf</a>However, if you actually read the <PERSON> manual -- the documentation is really terrific -- I think you'll find that the spthy code quickly comes into focus as something very straight-forward.<a href="https://_URL_1_/manual/book/001_introduction.html" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_1_/manual/book/001_introductio...</a>So much so, in fact, that I'd really recommend fluency with something like Tamarin as an essential thing for anybody working on crypto things, even if they're not in academia. It should be accessible to folks who describe themselves as " ;crypto engineers. " ; Next time you find yourself having to work on or analyze a custom crypto protocol, give it a shot.

1,841,294

[ 1840808 ]

213

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HNI_zx2c4

I've been experimenting with this exact kind of network setup -- open WiFi that only allows packets to and from the WireGuard endpoint. The nice part is that it means I just have WireGuard on all the time, and because it roams, when I connect to a different WiFi networks, I remain on my home network automatically. I've also been putting my actual wlan0 interface in a separate namespace, isolated from real things. This way there's no chance of leaking data: <a href="https://_URL_0_/netns/#the-new-namespace-solution" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/netns/#the-new-namespace-solution</a>

1,841,295

[ 1840819, 1840806, 1840810, 1840839, 1840808, 1840812, 1840815, 1840831 ]

2

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HNI_zx2c4

bcachefs seems especially exciting because the built-in crypto uses authenticated encryption in the form of ChaCha20Poly1305. Most disk encryption operates in an unauthenticated mode (such as XTS) which means the ciphertext is malleable on disk. This makes it's useful only for the case of your laptop getting stolen out of your car in the parking lot while turned off, but not for many more complicated scenarios (like trusting the data once the police recover your stolen laptop). With authenticated encryption, you're able to guarantee the authenticity and integrity of your files, in addition to encrypting them. Really great. The authentication tag naturally, then, doubles as what ZFS people refer to as their " ;checksums " ;. I'm watching bcachefs closely to see how it matures.<a href="http://_URL_0_/Encryption/" rel="nofollow">http://_URL_0_/Encryption/</a>

1,841,296

[ 1840819, 1840808 ]

194

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HNI_zx2c4

What a bunch of senseless FUD.WireGuard is based on the Noise Protocol Framework [1], designed by the same fella as the Signal Protocol, and already used in production by millions of devices all around the world inside of WhatsApp. Not only that, but we have a formal verification [2] that the crypto is correct in the symbolic model. The WireGuard paper itself [3] was presented to the academic community at NDSS [4]. It's most certainly not the hastily-made nonsense you imply it is with the phrase " ;rolled our own crypto " ;.Meanwhile your project, " ;subnet " ;, tunnels TCP over TCP, which is well known for having pathologically bad performance characteristics [5]. It also has no binding between certificates and the IP addresses that a certificate is allowed to be inside the tunnel, and, unless I've misread, it allows different peers to hijack each others' IP addresses simply by asking [6].There's a lot of work that goes into doing tunneling well. I encourage your effort to make a fun toy project; it's a great learning opportunity. But please don't spread FUD about other projects without first understanding them.[1] <a href="https://_URL_0_" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_</a>[2] <a href="https://_URL_1_/formal-verification/" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_1_/formal-verification/</a>[3] <a href="https://_URL_1_/papers/wireguard.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_1_/papers/wireguard.pdf</a>[4] <a href="https://_URL_4_/ndss2017/" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_4_/ndss2017/</a>[5] <a href="https://_URL_2_/search?q=tcp+over+tcp" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_2_/search?q=tcp+over+tcp</a>[6] <a href="https://_URL_3_/twitchyliquid64/subnet/blob/50fc8fe2b6ccf72a1f34e756d843238ab9b42312/src/subnet/server.go#L132" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_3_/twitchyliquid64/subnet/blob/50fc8fe2b6ccf...</a>

1,841,297

[ 1840808, 1840819 ]

213

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HNI_zx2c4

This is a plug for my stuff, but a relevant plug nonetheless:If you think you need a VPN, you probably need a good VPN protocol to go with it. Rather than using outdated legacy cruft like OpenVPN or IPsec, you might like WireGuard:<a href="https://_URL_0_/" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/</a>It's still in the early days, but the protocol is formally verified, the overall design has received academic review, the Linux implementation is maturing quite rapidly, and we'll soon have Mac and Windows clients available. Part of the WireGuard Protocol uses the Noise Protocol Framework from <PERSON>, of Signal Protocol fame.

1,841,298

[ 1840819, 1840808 ]

2

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HNI_zx2c4

Thanks for the feedback. Indeed there are the wg(8) and wg-quick(8) man pages, and probably you should read the whole _front page_ of _URL_1_, namely this part -- <a href="https://_URL_0_/#conceptual-overview" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/#conceptual-overview</a> -- which gives some important conceptual overviews to learn what's going on. Probably if you don't have the conceptual overview in mind, the quickstart won't make much sense; this may indeed be a fault in the writing presumptions of the quickstart.The side-by-side video puts this -- <a href="https://_URL_0_/talks/talk-demo-screencast.mp4" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/talks/talk-demo-screencast.mp4</a> -- in a < video > tag. I'm a kernel developer, not a web developer, so if you have a suggestion on how to fix it in your browser, I'm all ears.With all that said, we probably should rewrite the quickstart page to be a little more intuitive and " ;quicker " ;, so that people can get an idea of what to do without having to understand or think about anything... Maybe a better approach for that might be: " ;Here's what you do on one side. Here's what you do on the other side. " ;In any case, I guarantee that learning WireGuard is faster and simpler than learning StrongSwan or any IPsec things.After the Netdev conference, which is next week, I'll allocate some time to improving documentation. Thanks for the feedback here, and sorry for the frustration.

1,841,299

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2

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HNI_zx2c4

Greg KH, some others, and I had a great session stepping through every line of the codebase yesterday. Even though the codebase is quite small -- under 4k LoC -- studying some of the related topics is kind of like a fractal...Happy to answer any questions you all might have about WireGuard. We're in #wireguard on Freenode, too, if you need help with things in real-ish time. I'm also mailing out free stickers to anybody who wants some: <a href="https://_URL_0_/pipermail/wireguard/2017-May/001338.html" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/pipermail/wireguard/2017-May/001338....</a> -- just email <EMAIL_ADDRESS><PERSON>, some others, and I had a great session stepping through every line of the codebase yesterday. Even though the codebase is quite small -- under 4k LoC -- studying some of the related topics is kind of like a fractal...Happy to answer any questions you all might have about WireGuard. We're in #wireguard on Freenode, too, if you need help with things in real-ish time. I'm also mailing out free stickers to anybody who wants some: <a href="https://_URL_0_/pipermail/wireguard/2017-May/001338.html" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/pipermail/wireguard/2017-May/001338....</a> -- just email [email protected] and I'll throw them in an envelope.

1,841,300

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147

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HNI_zx2c4

The OpenVPN Windows kernel TUN/TAP driver is really super scary. That alone has a larger code base than all of WireGuard...At the moment, the efforts around the cross-platform userspace-based WireGuard implementations have focused on targeting that TUN/TAP driver, which is pretty ugly business. But thanks very much for pointing me toward this more general purpose API.It might wind up being _easier_ to use this than having to talk to terrible OpenVPN kernel drivers. I'll investigate this thoroughly.By the way, if you're into Windows programming and want to help out, don't hesitate to email <EMAIL_ADDRESS>.

1,841,301

[ 1840819 ]

2

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HNI_zx2c4

> he was able to work with the driver from managed (C#) code without actually modifying the driver source at allYea, I wouldn't need to (or want to) modify the source, and using the actual driver from userspace isn't that bad. Also, having a pre-signed win32k driver is a nice thing that I wouldn't want to give up. My motivation is mainly to avoid using it all together, if possible, which is I think what the API you linked to prior will allow.So the UWP API looks like the right way forward. I wonder if we could launch it as Win 10+ without too many complaints. Nobody is really using 8/8.1, but there are of course corporate Win7 holdouts. > Do you have a public issue tracker? Or is it mostly IRC and mailing lists?There's _URL_0_/todo/ but it hasn't been populated with the particular TODOs for the userspace stuff. But if you send me an email or come into the IRC, I can fill you in at the optimal time when it seems like _the one thing remaining_ is just to fill in some platform-specific stubs for win32. If that's appealing to you, of course.

1,841,302

[ 1840819 ]

112

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HNI_zx2c4

WireGuard enforces a very strict mapping between public keys and IP addresses, so you can't have two public keys with the same internal tunnelled IP address ( " ;AllowedIPs " ;). This way you can have rules like " ;if it comes from the WireGuard interface and it's from 10.8.3.9, then it must be from public key ABCD, " ; which make firewalling and ACLs and the general security posture a lot more straightforward.In your case, it sounds like you want to change the AllowedIPs from one peer to the other based on some kind of metric you have for determining disruption. In this case, you can do that switch at runtime:<pre><code> $ wg set wg0 peer ABCD allowed-ips <IP_ADDRESS>/0 </code></pre> or<pre><code> $ wg set wg0 peer EFG9 allowed-ips <IP_ADDRESS><IP_ADDRESS>, then it must be from public key ABCD, " ; which make firewalling and ACLs and the general security posture a lot more straightforward.In your case, it sounds like you want to change the AllowedIPs from one peer to the other based on some kind of metric you have for determining disruption. In this case, you can do that switch at runtime:<pre><code> $ wg set wg0 peer ABCD allowed-ips 0.0.0.0/0 </code></pre> or<pre><code> $ wg set wg0 peer EFG9 allowed-ips 0.0.0.0/0 </code></pre> Alternatively, if you wish to determine this disruption situation using traditional routing daemons, that set actual routes, as opposed to WireGuard AllowedIPs, then you could just have two separate WireGuard interfaces, and leave it to your routing daemon to decide which one to use.

1,841,303

[ 1840808, 1840819, 1840810, 1840812, 1840806, 1840831, 1840839, 1840821, 1840817, 1840811, 1840820, 1840802, 1840815, 1840865, 1840830, 1840832, 1840858, 1840861 ]

2

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HNI_zx2c4

> I did a vuejs/html5 web interface for wireguard recently and found it delightful to work with.Sounds cool. Care to share? I'd love to see people's usage. > - there is no option to specify listener ip+port tuplesWireGuard listens on all interfaces, because packets themselves are authenticated cryptographically. If a packet makes it to your system and the authtag is validated, it doesn't matter through what interface it arrived; it's legit. WireGuard also is able to reply using the destination address and interface of the incoming packet as the source address and interface of the outgoing packet, which is the other common usage of binding to particular IP addresses. > - logical sub-interfaces work fine, unless they happen to emit a vlan tagWireGuard is layer 3 -- IP -- not Ethernet, which is how I believe tunnels should be made. Instead of vlans, just add more tunnels if you need. > - almost every virtual ethernet device in the kernel calls eth_hw_addr_random(dev);WireGuard isn't Ethernet; it's IP. It doesn't use MAC addresses. It has public keys instead. > - " ;allowed-ips " ; cannot be turned off;Yes: the crypto key routing is the central idea of WireGuard. You establish a strong binding between public key and internal tunneled IP address, and then all your rules and policies on top of that suddenly become quite simple. > - when one " ;allowed-ips " ; setting is added to a peer, wg may silently remove " ;allowed-ips " ; on another, unrelated peerPeers can't share internal tunneled IP addresses; otherwise, there wouldn't be strong binding to public keys, nor efficiency of sending outbound packets. So if you assign an already assigned one to another peer, the presumption is that you want to _move_ the allowed IP. By always going with the newer future demand, and not erroring and staying with the old one, we ensure forward progress on your overall changes to policy. IOW, if you're changing things, we want the state to look like what you're changing it to.If you have any additional questions at this level (a great level, thanks for those), a better place to discuss is probably #wireguard on Freenode, or the mailing list -- <a href="https://_URL_0_/mailman/listinfo/wireguard" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/mailman/listinfo/wireguard</a>

1,841,304

[ 1840819, 1840810 ]

2

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HNI_zx2c4

> Yeah for sure. Here are some screenshots:Looks real nice. Any plans to open source that? > Yeah but you try telling the person administering the combined firewall/vpn/router box that his/her firewall rules are no longer in control of what traffic is allowed in or not.No, this is not correct. All iptables/nftables/netfilter rules apply. My comment was strictly related to the fact that it listens on <IP_ADDRESS>, but you're still in full control of all firewalling in every way. > stuff listening on <IP_ADDRESS>/0 and <IP_ADDRESS>/0 is unaffected by the forwarding flagEither I don't understand what you've written, or this is complete nonsense. This doesn't correspond with anything real I can fathom. Probably it'd be easiest to just poke us in #wireguard on Freenode, and we can try to figure out together whatever behavior you're seeing. In addition to me being in there to discuss WireGuard-related things, there are some nftables experts there too, who will probably have insights into your firewall configuration. > is in fact a virtual ethernet device, in kernel-speak.It's actually not an ethernet device. In " ;kernel-speak " ; it's a net_device with hard_header_len = addr_len = 0, instantiable via rtnl. > When the device then drops L2 framesAll L3 devices reject L2 frames. There are quite a few L3 devices, in fact, not just WireGuard.

1,841,305

[ 1840819, 1840808 ]

2

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HNI_zx2c4

Nice to hear there's some hope... I managed to get some small grants and donations and things for WireGuard over part of this last year -- <a href="https://_URL_0_/donations/" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/donations/</a> -- but I don't have much lined up for next year, and I'm hoping I can figure it out in time to do WireGuard things full time. The thing is just getting funding lined up for [part of] this last year was a pretty time consuming hustle, and I'd rather spend that time writing code. This leads me to think I should find somebody to handle " ;fund raising " ; or " ;community mumblemumble " ; or something, but as WireGuard is a security-oriented project, communicating correctly is important, and I could imagine that somehow backfiring. The other thing is that I'd feel really uncomfortable putting up one of those thermometer overlays on the _URL_1_ website; just adding the " ;donate " ; link in the corner was a bit much for me. So, hm. Nice to see the Webpack guys figure it out. Maybe I'll take some clues from there.

1,841,306

null

105

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HNI_zx2c4

I wrote the email that prompted this quite civil response. I'm very pleased with the outcome, because I think this clear statement of his position is a lot more useful for people to work with, rather than just assuming <PERSON> hates security or something.I interpreted his response in practical terms as essentially being the following. Patch set merge 1 has " ;report " ; as default and " ;kill " ; as a non-default option. Patch set merge 2 has " ;kill " ; as default and " ;report " ; as a non-default option. Patch set merge 3 removes support for " ;report " ;. This way we have the best of both worlds: we eventually reach the thing that actually adds real security benefit, which makes security folks happy. And we don't break everybody's computers immediately, allowing time for the more obvious bugs to surface via " ;report " ;, which makes users and developers happy. Seems like a reasonable process to me.

1,841,307

[ 1840808 ]

158

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HNI_zx2c4

This is why I don't run any Electron apps on my computers at all, ever.That means I'm stuck with the web browser version of Slack, Skype, Signal (going away), and so forth, which is a shame. But it's better than the security nightmare that is Electron.I wish developers wanting to make cross platform GUI applications would look instead at Qt. It's extremely easy to use, really fast, and generates great GUIs. It's been around for ages and continually sees updates. Usually people who see the Qt light are pretty satisfied. It can also be used from a wide variety of languages, in case you're not into writing C++.I sort of suspect that Electron's popularity is due to it being accessible to the hordes of JavaScript developers who otherwise wouldn't have had any clue how to make desktop/native applications. However, do I really want to be running unsandboxed xss== > rce code written by clueless devs? No, no I do not. So, in the end, refusing to run Electron apps turns out to be a somewhat reasonable security posture.

1,841,308

[ 1840853 ]

179

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HNI_zx2c4

Oh, wow, I didn't expect anybody to post this to a high volume site. The Android work is in some intense alpha-development state right now, but things are coming along nicely. If anybody wants to contribute to the efforts, please don't hesitate to get in touch -- <EMAIL_ADDRESS>.If you don't know what WireGuard is, it's a next generation secure network tunnel: <a href="https://_URL_0_" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_</a> . The protocol has been formally verified in the symbolic model and the original whitepaper was published at NDSS this year: <a href="https://_URL_0_/papers/wireguard.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/papers/wireguard.pdf</a>I'm mailing out stickers to everybody who asks: <a href="https://_URL_1_/pipermail/wireguard/2017-May/001338.html" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_1_/pipermail/wireguard/2017-May/001338....</a>

1,841,309

null

174

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HNI_zx2c4

Happy to answer any questions about the project in general.For people interested in what WireGuard actually is, the best resources are the homepage and the whitepaper:<a href="https://_URL_0_/" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/</a><a href="https://_URL_0_/papers/wireguard.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/papers/wireguard.pdf</a>Also, I'm mailing out stickers just for fun: <a href="https://_URL_1_/pipermail/wireguard/2017-May/001338.html" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_1_/pipermail/wireguard/2017-May/001338....</a>The forum post on XDA is intended for ROM developers who would like to include the kernel module. Rest assured, we're now working on an app in the various app stores that will work on all Android (and iOS!) devices, without need for the kernel module or a custom ROM or anything like that. But the mobile kernel aspects are important and interesting, which is why we're pursuing these different but related efforts in parallel via XDA.

1,841,310

[ 1840819 ]

229

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HNI_zx2c4

Of interest regarding this might be: <a href="https://_URL_2_/InstLatX64/status/934093081514831872" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_2_/InstLatX64/status/934093081514831872</a> > The sad thing is there is no CPUID flag to distinguish good AVX512 from useless AVX512.You can read the the avx512_2ndFMA bit from the PIROM, according to this Intel datasheet: <a href="https://_URL_0_/content/www/us/en/processors/xeon/scalable/xeon-scalable-datasheet-vol-1.html" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/content/www/us/en/processors/xeon/scal...</a>Linux doesn't implement reading PIROM over SMBus, but it sure would be nice to expose this flag in /proc/cpuinfo.In WireGuard we're at the moment just disabling the zmm AVX512F implementation on Skylake-X, falling back to the still-fast-but-not-as-fast AVX512VL implementation that only touches ymm and doesn't downclock as much (following OpenSSL's reasoning on +/- <PERSON> same implementation):<a href="https://_URL_1_/WireGuard/tree/src/crypto/chacha20poly1305.c#n47" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_1_/WireGuard/tree/src/crypto/chacha20poly...</a>I may look into trying to read the PIROM so that I can make a more informed decision. I've tested those Platinum boxes, and indeed it's a lot faster there, even with the [lesser] downclocking, whereas a Gold box didn't perform as well, making the ymm-only implementation necessary.

1,841,311

[ 1840819, 1840815, 1840808, 1840803, 1840810, 1840839, 1840806, 1840837, 1840853 ]

176

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HNI_zx2c4

Pro-tip: if you pop a shell, only use it to run your own dropper. Use locally available tools as little as possible. Automate your entire post-exploitation payload and cleanup and get out as soon as possible.Reading this article is like reading about elite navy seals who storm an enemy outpost, get inside, and then get distracted trying to refashion a stapler they find laying around into a lock-picking device to open the safe.

1,841,312

[ 1840808, 1840815 ]

202

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HNI_zx2c4

> TunSafe will not be able to communicate with the wireguard servers if it does not use the correct encryption and protocol schemeThere's a lot more to writing secure software than merely implementing something that appears to speak the protocol some of the time, or merely implementing a protocol at all. As I said, don't rely on TunSafe.As above, we'll have snapshots of the cross platform implementations shortly. Until then, I'd recommend just waiting patiently.

1,841,313

[ 1840808 ]

213

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HNI_zx2c4

There's another paper besides the RHUL one, which preceded it, using tamarin: <a href="https://_URL_0_/wireguard-tamarin/tree/wireguard.m4" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/wireguard-tamarin/tree/wireguard.m4</a> <a href="https://_URL_1_/papers/wireguard-formal-verification.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_1_/papers/wireguard-formal-verificati...</a> There are other groups who are also currently working on similar and better proofs. I think the end goal is to get proofs of the general pattern language of Noise rather than just the WireGuard handshake (IKpsk2), which will probably then satisfy your concerns with Noise. The Noise project itself is also working on things like NoiseSocket which will be more of an easily pluggable " ;right answer " ;.

1,841,314

[ 1840808, 1840819, 1840815 ]

213

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HNI_zx2c4

> If you care about this, then put the laptop in a tamper-evident bag.How does this procedure work for multiday evil maid situations? The first day while you're out the maid replaces your collection of plastic disposable tamper-evident bags with faulty ones that open with a particular chemical but otherwise look identical. The second day the maid tampers with your laptop and you don't notice. Do you just have to take the whole box of additional bags with you everyday? That seems prohibitively inconvenient.

1,841,315

[ 1840812, 1840810, 1840819, 1840808, 1840826, 1840806, 1840822, 1840824, 1840853, 1840866, 1840839, 1840833, 1840825, 1840820 ]

191

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HNI_zx2c4

That's a fine and fair principle. I understand where you're coming from, and getting this mainlined is important to me too.But for the record, we're maintaining meticulous compatibility with all _URL_1_ kernels back to 3.10 and up to whatever the most recent RCs are (at the moment, 4.17-rc5). We also support the frankenkernels from ubuntu, redhat, and suse. We have a build and run-in-a-vm CI box testing all these kernels for every commit and on a bunch of architectures: <a href="https://_URL_0_/build-status/" rel="nofollow">https://_URL_0_/build-status/</a> And because we're actively working on upstreaming this, you can be sure that this is going to continue working with upstream.Also, this isn't a " ;company releasing their own modules " ; situation, providing some kind of throw-it-over-the-fence corporate crap code. I'm a kernel developer with a decent amount of upstream code, and the work I do is nearly always for upstream kernels.

1,841,316

[ 1840808, 1840865 ]

123

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HNI_zxcdw

Ideally, of course, everyone could charge what they want for what they are trying to do, and everything would be flawless regarding to that. However, if we try to live by this idealism in this digital world, we also have to accept that the road to that said idealism goes through DRM, walled gardens and broken net-neutrality. Basically, to achieve that idealism with modern day digital devices we have to give up digital liberties (including privacy more or less).I prefer the digital freedom over the anti-piracy idealism anyday. I suppose " ;digital anarchism " ; and " ;digital totalitarianism " ; would be descriptive terms for the (exaggerrated) ends of the spectrum.Being an European, I at times praise the American gun culture and how the American constitution is such a holy thing over there (not that I want the guns over here though, but the attitude). What I would love to see is a similar attitude taken towards not guns, but computing. Fuck the authorities who try to whitelist sequences of instructions to execute on my general purpose computer in the name of protecting their copyright or patents, or corporate profits or local monopolies of digital information exchange.If we ever go to this digital dystopian future (as if some wouldn't claim we are there already!), I firmly believe, and am afraid, that it is first and foremost lead by arguments in favor of entertainment industry (and to some extent by " ;protecting children " ; and " ;catching terrorist " ;, how else...).This is why the copyright laws and the whole notion of digital copyright enforcement is meaningless for me, and I personally am opposed to them regardless of being well aware that it's almost certainly a battle which can't be won. Not because we'd be wrong, but because digital liberties undermine ability to make profit in many ways. Oh well, at least there were us who tried.

1,841,317

null

244

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150490, 132156, 1838300, 826306, 1687577, 434940, 89538, 1450711, 1180270, 1468515, 40060, 1707930, 1406548, 1510702, 360371, 710196, 1739366, 1101320, 1825724, 646156, 971426, 667796, 1107123, 673317, 221557, 1264080, 20642, 497525, 1682678, 44698, 644141, 1626167, 478839, 1162322, 607688, 202122, 481867, 640396, 1557383, 1363546, 1345922, 72739, 1633165, 149002, 1791973, 319595, 1756037, 441917, 973295, 1494811, 1007068, 1379907, 208413, 647785, 1579250, 1288897, 477438, 472066, 922595, 180974, 478934, 1821619, 653797, 1675872, 233193, 1209758, 535923, 1539762, 106015, 218169, 957811, 628202, 382417, 1593098, 1640112, 833945, 337550, 836656, 1021101, 908658, 747194, 30311, 859631, 51245, 480830, 794007, 896991, 1618605, 1460361, 859842, 940983, 504307, 1663154, 1010229, 1299292, 1833924, 1552763, 351866, 988541, 491615, 1255328, 212874, 802196, 1035099, 479448, 511664, 710119, 769183, 878569, 846856, 469959, 801469, 939679, 753968, 1655986, 1758634, 462278, 1496389, 342694, 1263906, 1706578, 1446127, 131326, 35250, 1067680, 1660769, 1587475, 1236069, 548033, 35617, 1132544, 173609, 554490, 1611351, 784228, 497264, 951, 709971, 1236125, 1562816, 1299610, 1087718, 129968, 564656, 876004, 1655227, 1765078, 1322962, 252521, 141671, 920020, 956924, 879057, 954543, 1561145, 1244001, 1670951, 1817121, 1396094, 1813741, 369521, 334355, 1161176, 1153584, 941746, 1030635, 625416, 1571510, 1729777, 529566, 697782, 874787, 315110, 1744449, 838115, 1228206, 230436, 385154, 1715121, 670237, 1439072, 808385, 1026725, 1236122, 1600446, 103152, 1661924, 604571, 1422122 ]

HNI_zxcdw

> There will never be a <PERSON> of biology because the mechanisms of life aren't so neat and ordered that they can reduced to first principles.Let us simulate the universe and let that simulation be the ruleset for the first principles.Not saying it's going to be neat and ordered, but on the other hand, the idea of it surely is. Whether or not it is ever feasible (or even theoretically possible) to do so doesn't take away from the merits of the idea, I think.

1,841,318

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HNI_zxcdw

I agree. But I'm also convinced that in practice there's absolutely no way to pressure OEMs to allow control over our devices in such way that it would lead to persistent computational opennes and freedom.Walled gardens and eroded digital/computational liberties are here to stay, and even more so in the future. The trend has been that " ;hacking the device " ; has become harder and harder, and devices have became more and more closed and controlled. I don't expect this trend to change any time soon. I sure as hell wish it did, but why would it?

1,841,319

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1273399, 526095, 899582, 1839397, 1096151, 1328487, 1344195, 1181409, 461330, 291569, 1646410, 34443, 345756, 1649473, 349230, 1646538, 1026758, 1705814, 1236922, 1115253, 368984, 109885, 1457432, 466979, 1834193, 818775, 1469592, 1390080, 1625972, 919147, 335558, 1037146, 1069995, 225728, 1833468, 302108, 170008, 836999, 562989, 994150, 1490576, 328069, 1104995, 79593, 451682, 988222, 1765313, 825496, 355499, 909294, 166363, 1786068, 329931, 933797, 48450, 1193603, 1788078, 1039190, 1025374, 64997, 1646391, 1543070, 271301, 806482, 1601675, 1598034, 1402657, 217619, 1074124, 590157, 883068, 1024369 ]

HNI_zxcdw

> and that it's our own faultWhose fault exactly is it?Has anybody in HN worked with a company which does this crapware bundling, let alone creating? Or does anybody know anyone who's " ;in the business " ;? Because I, quite honestly, can't understand how or why people would be doing this. Is it really that " ;Well, I know this shit is going to infect thousands of machines with software which nobody would like to have, but hey, it gives me my salary, fuck yeah! " ;?It's just sad that there are people scamming others like this, and people who jump into it because hey, paycheck!

1,841,320

null

91

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HNI_zxcdw

But isn't computer just the medium to access the real addiction-causing substance, whatever it may be?I mean, if you give person a computer of any kind without internet access, they'll likely feel just as anxious as not having the device in the first place. This, to me, would suggest that what actually causes the addiction is something these online services provide for people. Be it for example some form of self-expression in form of Facebook status updates. They'll be fine for as long as they get to make the update for example (and perhaps see it go live? As in to check their outside appearance like a person checks the mirror after fixing their clothing, despite knowing the clothing is fine. Just need that feedback for the sake of feedback itself, not for any particular practical reason necessarily).Why do I make the distinction? Because I've had to deal with something related to the subject matter myself. (Acknowledgement of some form/sort of addiction, which isn't computers themselves (though the addiction-causing behavior is mediated through a computer), or " ;being online " ;, but something more general because the addiction takes its shape and form for as long as the online service provides the easy " ;dopamine rush " ; (in lack of a better term), perhaps to relieve some underlying anxiety?)

1,841,321

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186

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HNI_zxcdw

I suspect it's a mere challenge for the " ;troll " ; to see if they can beat the system. If not, they'll try harder until they can. The more challenge the more rewarding it is, thus the harder they try and eventually succeed unless it's impossible (in which case they figure it out and quit trying).It's really the sincerest form of hacker spirit which manifests itself this way. Why? Because internet^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Hitler.Edit: Well, I didn't quite address the art part but still.

1,841,322

null

243

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HNI_zxcdw

I do agree with you, though as a brief tangent (as if this horse wasn't beat badly enough here in HN during the past almost 30 months...), my personal concern is both political and ethical, and I suspect this same concern applies to many of us who see dragnet surveillance as a problem.The political aspect is that whatever data there is about an individual can be used against them, selectively, for say political purposes. This is a gross violation of transparency and the principles of a democratic society.The ethical aspect is that I am being spied upon because of what I am not -- because I am not a US citizen. The talk about whether US constitution protects US citizens from dragnet mass surveillance (and thus whether NSA spying is unconstitutional) outright disgusts me (although I do understand the relevance for US citizens, of course). Telling one to " ;not use US internet services " ; is like telling one to opt out from the Internet. It's a " ;tough cookies " ; argument with very limited practical applicability.Collecting information about me to make money out of me by selling me stuff? Honestly, in comparison, that doesn't feel that bad at all. Luckily, browser add-ons like Ghostery and various adblockers mitigate this to an extent.

1,841,323

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13

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HNI_zxcdw

(Note that I am not the person you replied to.)I do honestly feel that there should be a law against that in the society which I live in, since I find such actions taken by the restaurant owner to be manipulative and purposefully deceptive (excuse me for not coming up with better terms, I am not a native English speaker), knowing that many people -- not all of them, but many -- thus end up drinking far more than they would personally intend to.I see no reason to promote such dishonesty, deception and misleading actions towards customers within a society, especially when the vulnerable ones are not vulnerable to it by choice, but by nature. It's the exact same thing which goes on with say gambling addicts or alcoholics. And no, I am not arguing for giving up the notion of personal responsibility, but I am arguing that these actions exploit vulnerabilities in people, which I see as no different from a ethical point of view than say committing a fraud against someone you know who has a psychological or neurological condition making them vulnerable for excess goodwill (or, someone suffering from e.g. dementia).

1,841,324

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79

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HNI_zxcdw

> But you are.No, I am not. You're seeing binary where there is none. My point is not to abolish the notion of personal responsibility, but to acknowledge that there is more to human behavior and decision making than cold, rational free will. > When you get to micromanaging such trivialities, there's no limit what a planner's mentality will settle on next.This is a slippery slope argument. > It is absolutely not fraud.And I never claimed it was a fraud, why would you interpret it that way? Or do you feel I communicated my point regarding fraud poorly? > The property owner may deliberately arrange the environment so as to maximize an expected consumer end.This is where we disagree at. I do not believe that the property owner may do whatever they wish within their property. I believe there should be laws limiting what and how the property owner may arrange their property -- to defend the customers from themselves, just as there are laws limiting for example gambling, or selling of alcohol and other drugs. > Taking your logic of needing to regulate any " ;misleading action " ; to its conclusion will only entail the abolition of the market economy.Sure, if you take it to the extreme, and in that case then perhaps and if so, I am personally fine with that. I have no personal stake -- or ideology -- in free market economy. It is a mere implementation detail, not an end in itself. > (Moreover, expecting that consumers are morons who cannot regulate their own behavior will generally lead to policymakers drafting proposals that assume as such and end up fulfilling the prophecy on their own, since the resulting bureaucracy will be internalized by consumers in their expectations.)It is about acknowledging that among consumers there are individuals who are vulnerable to various lures (in lack of a better term, but consider alcohol as an example), and that I do personally view exploiting such vulnerabilities as unethical and hence I propose regulation. And I am speaking as someone with social problems due to not having enough control over my own actions regarding certain matters. Thus, I greatly fail to externalize this matter to " ;them " ; who " ;can't control themselves " ;.

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HNI_zxcdw

> Then you don't really support property rights.Or we simply disagree what rights and liabilities the property owner should have in the context, which I define as business property. I see no problem with this as there are many countries with extensive liabilities and regulations when it comes to property and business practices one is allowed to conduct. > By protecting customers from " ;themselves " ; and thus also protecting owners from customers, you are curtailing rights of both to engage in voluntary contract.Oh I indeed am, or I at least am not opposing regulation in this matter from any ideological perspective. I don't see such regulation as inherently bad, as it seems that you see. > It's not at all an " ;implementation detail, " ; it arises quite organically out of interpersonal exchange.Many things arise " ;quite organically " ; from individual actors acting for their own benefit, but in many cases it can be argued for that there are places and times where regulation (governmental or otherwise) does indeed improve the society and the lives of the people within it. > You know what I loathe?I suppose I don't despite having some suspicions, but please, don't assume I care either. > You provide a case for perceived suboptimal behavior of markets, but then by proposing regulation you completely ignore the prospect of suboptimal government action!How couldn't you say this exact same about any form of regulation within markets? And if so, to me it seems that you oppose regulation out of a principle -- and really, how you come off as suggests the same. > You'd do yourself good by reading up on some public choice theory.Oh, always, though I am almost certain our differing views lie somewhere else completely. I suppose you have recommendations though?

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HNI_zxcdw

> From a quick check it seems Twitter is getting better at it. Prices used to be more like in the low $20/k range. Now the low end accounts are $45/k and if you want PVAd/profiled it's up near $90. Compare to Gmail where the price is more like $280/k. Or Facebook EN accounts, $120. Good to see my old colleagues doing such a good job!Perhaps there's just more demand? > Nowadays there's suddenly a bout of anti-Russian hysteria. Suddenly bots are in focus again. There are conspiracy theories about botted accounts being used to convince people to change their political positions. Having worked in the industry for years I am deeply skeptical about this. I never once saw bots being used for political ends or anything even approaching it. There is a lot of disinformation out there about Russia right now from western sources, and a lot of paranoia that doesn't seem to be justifiable.The fact that you've worked for Google on anti-botting and didn't see the technique you were tasked to counter used for political means might be leaving you biased. Without pointing fingers, I just want to state that there's tremendous political opportunity in spreading misinformation via internet (via any media really), it's amazing that in 2017 this isn't clear for everyone.

1,841,327

null

232

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HNI_zxcvbn4038

The banks didn't get the memo from NIST and if anything they are getting worse - they are actually ramping up their use of callback and SMS authentication. Last month I had several apps force an SMS authentication because I hand't logged in since paying bills the prior month. One app disabled Touch ID and forced an SMS auth before I could log in again. One bank locked me out of my account entirely because you can't log in or contact custom service without receiving an SMS code (no voice option), but their system refuses to send SMS to my number.It would be great if the banks supported TOTP and U2F keys (or if they managed passwords correctly and didn't limit the length or force absurd character recipes).I once applied for a job at a top 3 bank's IT security area and on the way to the interview room I noticed that every single desk had a well worn copy of Computer Security For Dummies. I think that may be the root cause of all banking security problems right there.

1,841,328

[ 1840880 ]

235

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HNI_zxcvbn4038

There used to be a really nifty site called _URL_0_ which would let you make realistic looking pictures of billboards, restaurant marquees, and similar. It was there for years then one day it stopped loading and soon after the domain expired. I've often hoped that the author might surface on Hacker News, Reddit, github, a blog, or an on-line resume but they never have. Does anyone here know who the author was and if they can be contacted?

1,841,329

[ 1840886, 1840885 ]

48

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HNI_zxcvbn4038

Very nice! I have many fond memories of the After Dark screen savers - my favorite was from the " ;Twisted " ; collection had featured a silhouette of a big city apartment building with crazy stuff happening in the windows. There was an old lady that would bank on the ceiling with a broom, a guy spanking a monkey, lovers that would chase each other, a crazy guy with a shot gun trying to down a UFO, and ton of other stuff. I also liked the Twisted version of the fish tank which featured that maffioso that would fall to the bottom wearing cement shoes and eventually die after holding his breath for a few minutes. After Dark was about the only software I ever paid for. If I remember right they were bought by Sierra, whom I believe was more interested in their You Don't Know Jack video games, which promptly killed all their screen saver products.

1,841,330

[ 1840886, 1840884, 1840885, 1840878 ]

185

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HNI_zxcvbn4038

This is going to be great - what are Yahoo!, Citibank, and everyone else who has declared war on VOIP by refusing to send SMS or voice auths to them going to do now that the third largest carrier in the US is all VOIP? Its a rhetorical question, they are going to drop the " ;that number doesn't look right " ; crap.I remember being denied loans and credit cards because I only had a mobile phone (no hard line), but today no bank would dare do that because it would exclude the majority of the population. Now they're going to swallow their pride and allow VOIP numbers.Now if we can just get everyone on board with preventing the banks from disabling paste on form fields!

1,841,331

null

175

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HNI_zxcvbn4038

I'm surprised they haven't gained wider adoption, their competitors charge yearly fees for their tokens, and in many cases you become dependent on their infrastructure to use them. U2F is a one time investment as long as the token isn't damaged, and your not beholden to Yubico in the slightest. I've got a box of RSA tokens from former jobs. E*Trade still gives out some token with a LCD display for $20 a year as their sole 2nd factor option.

1,841,332

[ 1840886 ]

241

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HNI_zxcvbn4038

Just the other day I wrote an Oauth login feature in Go for fun. Facebook banned my account three days later for " ;suspicious " ; activity. Twitter banned my account in 48 seconds - I didn't even have a chance to setup an Oauth token. That right there shows the problem with being reliant on a 3rd party for access to your site, what if the 3rd party refuses to work with you? Suddenly your cut off from a percentage of your users. (It wasn't all bad, setting up Amazon login was quick and painless and they didn't ban my account!)I do wish more sites allowed TOTP (Google Auth) because it works well and avoids the third party dependency, but I'd be happiest if sites would just stopped disabling paste so I can use strong passwords with my password manager. (Synchrony Bank, I'm looking at you and all your dozens of co-branded web sites)

1,841,333

[ 1840886 ]

246

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HNI_zxcvbn4038

SQLite only allows one writer at a time, so depending on your access pattern that might be an issue, but if your site is getting a million requests a day then your only processing an average of 11.5 requests per second, and what percentage of them are writes? Front your app with varnish, nginx (w/cache), or cloudflare and absorb some additional load. Though as far as I can tell _URL_0_ is running on a single linode instance with no fancy hacks.

1,841,334

[ 1840886, 1840880 ]

7

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HNI_zxcvbn4038

Anyone with an existing credit relationship with you can still do soft inqueries so it’s not complete but (on paper) it does prevent them from selling your name to others. However if you look even closer these companies have other databases which are not intended for being used in credit decisions and are thus not subject to FCRA and it’s impossible to have information removed from those. They have every address I ever lived at, every phone number I’ve ever had, a list of known associates including relatives of ex-girlfriends whom I lived with only briefly during school, and apparently I own a sporting goods store in Texas - can’t tell them otherwise.

1,841,335

[ 1840880, 1840879 ]

235

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HNI_zxcvbn4038

That is absolutely true - even if you are lucky enough to have a charge removed from your criminal record, everything on your arrest record will outlive you. Thats a problem since today every little thing gets you arrested - your average school yard brawl will get kids arrested for assault. However, on the bright side so many people have been arrested or jailed in this country that employers have had to start taking people with minor offenses just because there are so few people who make it to adulthood without at least one encounter with the law.

1,841,336

[ 1840882, 1840884, 1840879, 1840880, 1840883 ]

237

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HNI_zyb09

I beg to differ. Most of these " ;grumbling devs " ; must have never seen what poor documentation looks like if they think Android's SDK has issues with it. On the contrary, its very well documented in my opinion. The tools are solid too, you can't really complain about IntelliJ as an IDE basis and the build system is good too ever since they switched to Gradle.Of course you could bitch about how they constantly release new APIs for everything, but so does every other platform.

1,841,337

[ 1840894, 1840893, 1840890 ]

157

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HNI_zyb09

Those sneaky bastards, no way I believe this whole thing wasn't prearranged with <PERSON>. Apple has been subject to public outcries over their greedy business models lots of times, but never did they give in so soon and easily. Either <PERSON> is some kind of head honcho of the music industry, and Apple genuinely has to respect her statement, or this whole thing was prearranged for PR.

1,841,338

[ 1840890, 1840897 ]

92

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HNI_zyb09

To be honest, what exactly did she want to accomplish with this? Where I live people are very hesitant of sharing their salary and doing something like this would be considered very rude. All it can possibly lead to is drama about salaries. Drama about why some people getting payed more then others. Should Google now start paying each and everyone exactly the same until everyone is happy? No of course not, it's no secret companies have different salaries for different employees. What matters is that YOU feel ok with what you're getting payed, not what others are earning.

1,841,339

[ 1840897, 1840895 ]

89

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HNI_zyb09

I agree with you on the benefits, but I did find it quite hard to get rid of added sugars from my diet. As you said it's basically in 90% of products you find at the grocery store, so the only way is to buy raw foods only and do a lot of cooking. I work remotely from home, so I have time to choose what to buy and time to cook everyday, but otherwise I don't think I could do it easily.

1,841,340

[ 1840893, 1840899, 1840897, 1840888, 1840895, 1840900, 1840898, 1840887 ]

12

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HNI_zyb09

I think at this point the mobile hard- and software industry is simply much further developed and it's harder for everyone to innovate, not just for Apple. We can't expect that magic of 2007 to come back on a year to year basis. That said Apples products continue to be very solid. For me personally, MacBook Pros are in amazing state right now and OSX feels and looks great on high-dpi displays.

1,841,341

[ 1840893, 1840899 ]

0

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HNI_zyb09

Of course Apple wants to sell MacBooks to developers, and I'm sure a lot of devs will happily buy it. Because many of the flaws and issues, that are notoriously being pointed out on HN/Reddit, don't really apply to the individual buyer, or are vastly exaggerated. I mean I'm a dev, and getting a couple of USB-C cables is really that hard and inconvenient? The answer you get from the online collective is yes, but in real life the buyer decides most of these things are non-issues for himself. Same thing with every Apple product as far as I can remember, always lots of controversy, everybody has a opinion on why/what went wrong, but at the end of the day it's a perfectly fine for most people (including devs).

1,841,342

[ 1840894 ]

0

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HNI_zyb09

So this was about the banning of PizzaGate subreddit, and its understandable that a Reddit-Mob can be a scary thing, and needs to be dealt with somehow. But it feels Reddits moderation practices have become increasingly shady over the last couple years, and spez editing comments directly just shows how seemingly lax they are with their powers. You don't really have to be a conspiracy nut to see that places like /r/politics during the election had some very questionable moderation.

1,841,343

[ 1840895, 1840897, 1840899, 1840890, 1840900, 1840891, 1840887, 1840896 ]

103

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HNI_zyb09

Is it? We don't have any conceivable idea on how exactly human modification might work. We like to imaging how we gonna decouple bodies and consciousness, yet we can't even grow organs in a Petri dish or figure out how things like obesity are being caused. For traveling to Mars and beyond we already have some solid conventional plans, its just a matter of committing a huge amount of resources to it.

1,841,344

[ 1840899, 1840895, 1840887, 1840897, 1840892 ]

35

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HNI_zyb09

Just collected the black coins in 1-1, and some in 1-2. The black coins seem to be what this game really is about, and damn does it a good job with it. Actually amazed at what it does with just a 1-button input method.Sad to see so many people critize the $10 price tag. Obviously that was expected, but as an iOS dev myself, it always saddens me too see the rejection of people to basically pay for anything on the AppStore.

1,841,345

[ 1840893, 1840894, 1840889, 1840890, 1840899 ]

185

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HNI_zyb09

I wonder if this will have an effect on how kids get into programming. Back when I was a kid we had MS-DOS, my primary motivation was to install and play games, but there was this easy built-in pathway of: Hey, you can do a lot more with this machine if you want, including making your own games.Nowadays consuming and developing are so disconnected, it seems almost impossible for the younger generations to just stumble upon it like many people did back then.

1,841,346

[ 1840899, 1840893 ]

95

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HNI_zyb09

I've been using LibGDX for a small little thing, and honestly can't recommend it. I had the app for a few years, and whenever I wanted to update things after a few months, so many things would just break. Be it the build-system, the APIs, RoboVM or some randoms project settings - it was always a headache to get it running again. When RoboVM shut down, there wasn't even any clear way to get it running on iOS again for a while, leaving me with an undeployable app.If you're investing into anything serious, I would strongly recommend going with Unity over this.

1,841,347

[ 1840893, 1840889, 1840894, 1840890, 1840888 ]

29

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HNI_zyb09

I thought these two were pretty good:“Bad programmers worry about the code. Good programmers worry about data structures and their relationships.” — <PERSON>That's how I always feel when people have lengthy discussions about spaces vs tabs. Good truth coming from the man himself.“Sufficiently advanced trolling is indistinguishable from thought leadership.”Kinda scary true, when you see how some online communities, that started mostly as trolling, became real idiologys over time.

1,841,348

[ 1840890 ]

243

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HNI_zyb09

It's not that bad. The only thing Google/FB/Twitter gets to know is that a user Y is using app X. Nothing more, and not detailed usage stats, just the basic fact.For that they handle the complete user registration, recovery & auth process for you, with all the work and pain attached to it.Granted if your OAuth provider were really evil, they could log into the users App X account and access whatever data he has inside the app, so you have decide if that a concern or not.

1,841,349

[ 1840894, 1840900, 1840896, 1840893, 1840890, 1840895, 1840891 ]

174

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