>>.
First sentence (Score:5, Insightful)
"Bob Pendleton calls his blog "The Grumpy Programmer" because he's both grumpy and a programmer."
Thanks, Rob!!
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But what about this "the" word at the beginning? That doesn't get a word of explanation.
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The "the" is there because I could not get
.org .net, and .com of grumpyprogrammer,
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and there is only one of him.
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Re: ."
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Incidentally [and unrelatedly] I'm 63, a programmer and grumpy. I hate every 'latest' javascript framework, stupid hipster hats and THOSE KIDS ON MY LAWN.
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But no "Grumpy Programmer" ever really gets to be a "Grumpy Programmer" until they cease being a 'programmer' and become a system salesperson 'er' accounts manager 'er' system consultant 'er' systems integrator 'er' company representative basically what ever title suits for a failed to keep up with language changes programmer.
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Transcript... (Score:5, Insightful)
The transcript reads like a conversation between two guys with almost nothing to say. I'm honestly not sure what my takeaway from this should have been. Guy was a working programmer for 30 years (unemployed for the last 12+), and now he's...
...a guy making small-talk in a video?
Help me understand what I missed.
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You've missed that Slashdot has become a steaming turd of inconsequence.
Will the last fucktard to leave please turn off the light?
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Help me understand what I missed.
What you should understand is that you should never take advice from a guy who has been unemployed for the last 12 years. If he can't manage his own career, why should you let him manage yours? Unless his code is structured far better than his speaking, I wouldn't employ him either.
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So your just like a techo CEO (Score:2)
CEOs are technically employed, but they do not REALLY work do they.
Attend meetings, read the internet, attend meetings, play golf, fly a jet or two, stay in hotels, travel to other meetings, oh tell the PA to do a,b,c,d.
CEOs arent super human, their brain capacity is not 20x average. Im sure any seasoned programmer could do what a CEO does, remember more details, understand tech better.
Oh but the real skills come in social engineering and getting that billion dollar deal, by tricking the client.
Programmers
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Oh, and I'm also stupidly wealthy, which is why I haven't had to work since 2000
Obviously you fall into the category of "retired".
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Help me understand what I missed
The fact that they actually gave us a transcript instead of trying to make us watch two videos. I skimmed it in a couple minutes and reached the same conclusion. It's just a lot of dime-a-dozen cliches; but I didn't waste too much time finding that out. Thanks. Now make it a rule that you can't do video stories without a transcript, unless it's something where a transcript doesn't make sense such as a rocket launch, electronic music, or a badass sharkbot shooting lasers
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Just wait will 2040, when your job will be outsourced to dozens of 3rd world countries.
Oh and your burger joint will be 100% robotic, so will taxis, and hell, 90% of jobs will be robot run, and you will make a video, "shit damn I wish I did robotics or AI coding, not stupid govt medicare website"
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Just wait will 2040, when your job will be outsourced to dozens of 3rd world countries...
Don't have to wait, just had a second job outsourced to India last year. And so many others have had jobs outsoruced since 2005, so no need to wait another 26 years...been there, already happened, can't afford the T-Shirt to prove it.
Still find it funny when one of these outsourcing company's steal a company's trade secrets, code, products and eventually their vertical market thanks to that outsourcing. How about that, you really do get what you pay for! Who would of thunk it.
Back in the 90s, there were a group of middle IT Managers and IT Directors that would be assigned the new shiny 'golden' project initiative that the company was pursuing to increase revenue and theoretically grow. Right before the project would completely 'fail' they would ju
Re:Transcript... (Score:5, Insightful)
The transcript reads like a conversation between two guys with almost nothing to say.
Because a real grumpy programmer doesn't fucking talk on a fucking video. A real grumpy programmer uses text, just like he always did, to write about how those hipster fucks who think they have even half a fucking clue deserve get run out of town on the Rails they rode in on.
A real grumpy programmer still fucking hates Microsoft, but can't be arsed even to hold down the shift key long enough to type a '$' - even though those monopolistic fucks in Redmond deserve it. Develop my ass, Ballmer.
A real grumpy programmer knows what C is for, but the pissant little twerps who bitch about the lack of strong typing in Perl can go get fucked, because fuck you, that's why. And fuck your Web 2 Point fucking Oh, and fuck your Twitter and fuck your fucking FuckBook.
And that, my child, is what a real grumpy programmer looks like, because get the fuck off my fucking lawn you ignorant little turd polisher.
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True! I am disappointed by his lack of grumpiness. The only thing worse is if more slashdot videos are added for Doc, Happy, Sleepy, Bashful, Sneezy and Dopey.
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I wasted my mod points....
:(
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Lewis, is that you?
Re:Transcript... (Score:5, Informative).
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Age discrimination sucks eh.. (Score:2)
So those 30 year olds hiring people, immediately cut off any one with more than 10 years experience do they?
Do they assume those people will be listening to beatles music and be old shits, type slow, or like 4:3 screens, and use vi?
Time flies, all those 30yr olds will be 40 soon.
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I think it depends on the tools you need. I tired several times to make a run at VIM but wasn't seeing much of an advantage over the ultraedit/notepad++ speed I was used to for doing things... but then again I don't have to do any work where I'm stuck in a terminal. If it were the case I'd make a serious run at learning vi/emacs or whichever.
I recently found SublimeText and I have to say it is a real leg up over notepad++/uedit for a rich editor, it sort of marries keyboard navigation with the gui in a real
Incredibly wise advice (Score:3, Insightful).
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So, live your entire life as though you're going to get fired tomorrow. Sounds like real fun.
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You very well might get fired tomorrow. Job security is a thing of the past in software development.
If you don't want to live like that, switch careers..
Yes, the big picture.
The big picture is what gets one person fired and another a promotion.
The big picture is what gets a guy a multi-million dollar salary while the other one is glad he gets to keep his job for another month.
The best way to get the big picture is to connect, talk to people and see where everything is and looks like is going. Our lives have become so isolated and compartmentalized now. We do our thing in the cubicle and come home and watch TV and Netflix and ponder about what to buy n
Don't over-generalize (Score:2)
I did linux kernel development and low-level posix stuff for over a decade, and there's still plenty of work there. I've now moved on to cloud computing, but on the backend infrastructure side. Lots of stuff happening there too...
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So, live your entire life as though you're going to get fired tomorrow. Sounds like real fun.
Well, my advice is to find a decent job doing what you enjoy. Don't just keep a job to run out the clock until you retire. Get good enough to be valuable enough that the company wants to keep you around, and/or find a new business. Or start your own. (Never really done the latter in a serious way, but...)
My current stats: switched jobs too many times, but for at least a couple of those I stayed longer than I should have, only because I had not been there long enough. I'm 50 now, and hope to stay in
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> So, live your entire life as though you're going to get fired tomorrow. Sounds like real fun.
If you work in IT, the whole "disaster recovery" thing should not be new to you. It doesn't just apply to technology. If problems are readily forseeable then certainly you should try to plan for them and be as prepared for them as possible.
You don't necessarily have to go overboard. With many things, the most effective measures are the initial ones that are just past total apathy.
Being slightly more prepared th
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Well, not quite. Live your life like you are going to be fired TODAY. Be prepared for change.
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O rlly? (Score:2)
Living like this won't necessarily make you grumpy. Check out Happy [amazon.com]..
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Re:Incredibly wise advice (Score:5, Interesting)
And also, don't get married, because divorces tend to wipe out 50-70 percent of your net worth.
Or just don't get divorced. It is common knowledge that half of all marriages end in divorce. But that hides huge variations. If both partners have college degrees, the divorce rate is about 20%. If both have engineering degrees, it is about 10%. It helps to marry someone trained in problem solving, and capable of rational thinking.
Re:Incredibly wise advice (Score:5, Funny)
It helps to marry someone
... capable of rational thinking.
Well, once you get past the gay marriage issue you're kind of SOL.
Re:Incredibly wise advice (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Incredibly wise advice (Score:5, Informative).
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Your first point is very very true and is exactly what I did. Kids are worth the cost. Sure, I would be a multimillionaire if we had not had kids, but what the hell. Not getting married may be a good idea but I have been married for 37 years to an ME and that is a wonderful way to spend your life.
TheGrumpyProgrammer
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Exactly, best advice ever. If only people could have more common sense we would get out of the master/slave relationship. The 1% who own the world encourage the 99% to reproduce so that they remain enslaved to them. To hell with mankind, it can disappear as far as I'm concerned. As Mr Smith says, "Humans are a virus
..."
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And that's why, if you can, you go back to college to get a Bachelor or Masters degree when you get into your late 30's early 40's. I was fortunate in that I was able to take advantage of our corporate education benefits to complete mine. If nothing else, it shows that you still have the capacity and drive to learn and develop new concepts and skills outside of your current job.
Terrible advice (Score:3)
And that's why, if you can, you go back to college to get a Bachelor or Masters degree when you get into your late 30's early 40's.
That is the worst possible advice you could possibly give, except I guess for killing yourself.
That is when instead of SPENDING ALL YOUR SAVINGS ON SOMETHING THAT WILL NOT MATTER, you should instead think about switching to consulting and increasing your earnings. Can't find a full-job easily past 40-50? Learn to make people pay what you are really worth for the vast amounts
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Its interesting though - so many programmers think that programming is a cool and important job that requires a ton of skill and talent and dedication.... and then they learn at around 40 that is all a load of old bollocks, hence the reason companies have outsourced much of it to 3rd world places. A programmer is just a tech equivalent of a bricklayer.
so to keep being employed in IT, you need to change with it, and learn that programming is less important than the design and architecture that goes into it,
Also terrible advice (Score:2)
so many programmers think that programming is a cool and important job that requires a ton of skill and talent and dedication.
That remains true.
and then they learn at around 40 that is all a load of old bollocks, hence the reason companies have outsourced much of it to 3rd world places.
Who are mostly neither talented nor dedicated and produce crap...
so to keep being employed in IT, you need to change with it,
No, you need to leave IT and be hired back at a far higher rate to fix the mess caused by people wh
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Leave and be hired back is exactly what I did but....
there are many who couldn't hack it as developers who now manage outsourced teams(and still can't really hgack it, buit at least now they can cover their incompetence with a mix of blame culture, meetings and emails).
I once interviewed a guy for a dev job and when we mentioned the new outsourced team he piped up with a lot of enthusiasm "do you need someone to manage them" as if it were a career progression (and I suppose to him, it would have been for re
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Having a background like his, a different favourite form of poetry to write, and a love for LISP, I have to agree -- but after you've been coding for a few decades, the trick is to move into analysis and give up on the codemonkey work as a paying gig
:( This doesn't mean going into management (which is another option), but instead using your years of expertise to look over other people's (finished/unfinished) code, tear it apart, and make suggestions on how to fix what they inevitably missed. Or go into s
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Programming: You're doing it completely wrong (Score:2)
Anyone remember that old poster [tumblr.com]? It used to hang in an older professor's office back in school. I think he took it seriously too (not a humorous sort, that guy). The rest of us took it as bit of a joke -- a joke as in "Every old fart programmer thinks the next generation is doing it all wrong."
Ironically, that was 20 years ago, and so now I'm an old(er) fart myself. But I'll resist the urge to tell all the newbies how *MY* generation got it right and THEIR GENERATION sucks.
And get off my lawn!!!
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Kids always want to use lambda expressions where for loops would work just fine, and run faster too.
Bah, the next generation *is* doing it wrong.
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Kids always want to use lambda expressions where for loops would work just fine, and run faster too.
Or, you could simply use a good compiler which ultimately doesn't see the difference between the two.
Re:Programming: You're doing it completely wrong (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually more often I have seen the opposite: claims the new stuff is going to be faster, the compiler is not smart enough to figure out that they are the same, and thus you should use the new stuff.
There was a coworker who insisted that using C++ std::foreach for loops was faster because "the compiler knows you can't break out of it and thus can optimize the whole thing". I had two objections to this: first of all it would be a really stupid optimizing compiler that could not figure out there are no "break" statements inside the for loop. And second the C++ was still allowed to throw exceptions in both cases.
The other objection I had was that the functors were unreadable.
Yet another objection is my suspicion that the optimization would be far worse on the functors due to the enormous header files of templates they actually used and I expected the optimizer for the simple for loop to have fewer bugs in it. But I did not test this.
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I was talking about the pre-lambda stuff in std and boost, especially std::foreach.
C++11x did in fact fix a lot of this and I certainly use the new syntax.
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Do you happen to know who is in that picture? That is John McCarthy the inventor of Lisp. The joke is on you.
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No, the real joke is that he never actually said that.
Age Discrimination (Score:1)
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Better to start writing poetry, a novel, some music, etc., and then possibly get a job as an analyst (full-time or contract). Management is an option, but really only for those who enjoy it. Do what you love; find a way to convert your experience into a paycheck.
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It is sad to see that Mr. Pendleton had an experience similar to my own. I was laid off the year I turned 48. Unlike him, however, I stayed in management despite hating it and still became unemployed. I hope Mr. Pendleton finds success and happiness in whatever he chooses.
From the stories I hear, I think I will have to figure out an exit plan by 45-46.
I really hope I can get my own business as consultant or something else with a bunch of people who are in the same boat as me. I really hope I can strike out as a startup and hire young programmers and not be firable.
Turn in your geek card, Rob. (Score:2)
It is, in fact, John Warnock who founded Adobe.
My advice...RUN! (Score:2)
Stay away! Long hours, crappy pay working for a company that will use you for everything you are worth, chew you up, and when you turn 35-40, will spit you out. Only those few who specialized in now ancient technologies will have any prospects beyond age 40. The worst part is, there is no such thing as job security. No matter how much of a rockstar you are, at any time you are at risk of being replace by a kid from India or China, if for no other reason than the CTO needs a few extra dollars to get a new co
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. Only those few who specialized in now ancient technologies will have any prospects beyond age 40.
Maybe it's you? I'm 45 and recruiters bother me more than ever. I keep my tech skills current, and carefully manage my career so as not to get stuck looking like an expert only on old things. Senior engineers are golden right now - I find it a great place to be. If what I do could be done by a kid anywhere, well, I'd be a terrible engineer after 20+ years.
The worst part is, there is no such thing as job security.
True enough, but it doesn't matter. Other than during the dot-bust, it's never taken me long to get a series of interviews whenever I wanted/needed a
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I'm 45 and recruiters bother me more than ever.
I'm not that old, but I work with quite a lot of people who are older than you at various big companies. They're all exceedingly competent. I suspect that's part of the problem for the grandparent: the older you are, the greater the expectations. If you're as competent at 45 as someone else at 25, then people start to wonder how you've managed to work for 20 without gaining more insight. If you hire a competent 25 year old, then there's a good chance that they'll mature and improve over the next 5-10 ye
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Speaking as a grumpy (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm one of these grumpies. Some of what I had to say may be useful to the wet-behind-the-year dopes. Not likely, though, because, back when I was at their age, I didn't listen to the old geezers, and that both helped me as well as screwed me.
So, given the rapid speed of change in the landscape of IT industry, I have to wonder how relevant our experiences and lessons would be to the young'uns.
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So, given the rapid speed of change in the landscape of IT industry, I have to wonder how relevant our experiences and lessons would be to the young'uns.
There's no point in telling the younger folk anything, they already know it all. Wait until they're older with a little more experience and find out they still have much to learn.
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Lambdas. Ha. Lambdas are older than I am, and they think they discovered them. Garbage collection, too. Yeah, we know, functional programming and garbage collection will save the day and no one will ever have to write a loop, mutate an object, or allocate memory again. How many years have they been saying that? Probably longer than they've been saying RISC will kick CISCs butt, and
... oh, hell, the young'ns don't even know what that is, do they.
Poetry? (Score:2)
I guess I get why there may be some ties between programming and poetry, but it's not my thing. I wonder what the ex-English-professor would have said about a novelist?
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A good number of IT people I know are either into photography or music, some are into both.
because COBOL (Score:1)
Turns out being a COBOL programmer isn't a guaranteed job for life in the age of the Cloud.
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2014... (Score:3, Interesting)
It's 2014 and we still have streaming video served up as FLASH???? ON SLASHDOT?!?!?!?!?! What a joke.
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Yeah, because "HTML5" is such a great success
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Different ages of development (Score:5, Insightful)
I am not sure there's much advice us older programmers can give new developers because the industry is a lot different now.
In the old days we were often tasked with solving a problem, and we were more-often free to use whatever tools and technology were best, and we also thought of development environments as tools, which we could switch out if the application required something different. We also did all our own testing..
Nowadays there is so much abstraction going on in programming, people don't really seem like they're programming as much as they're using some sort of GUI development tool and plodding through innumerable amounts of API documentation and going on witch-hunts to try and figure out why something that's documented to work, doesn't actually work. I remember a big Oracle project I was on where my software wouldn't work properly and I couldn't figure out why. It took me several months of bitching on usenet to finally get a rep within Oracle contact me privately and tell me I wasn't crazy, they knew about the bug and just weren't acknowledging it. In the old days, there wasn't as much of that going on. Programming was simpler and less bureaucratic.
Re:Different ages of development (Score:4, Insightful)
I liked the part about poetry. That rings true. I came to programming from writing. They have a lot in common.
I am not sure there's much advice us older programmers can give new developers because the industry is a lot different now.
Experience counts. It's wiser to hire someone with 25 instead of 5 years experience. I generally get better results from the elders, whether they are my server admin, plumber, or barber. The years round off rough edges, and they're just more relaxed. They may be grumpy, but they always seem ready to make a joke. In their work they are more methodical and deliberate. They seem to be working slowly, but they finish sooner. They're mainly just less frantic, less wasted motion, more thoughful. There's no problem they can't figure out, eventually. They also are more likely to be the ones to insist on doing the job right, or thoroughly, more than the customer is asking them to. They are more likely to describe something as elegant or know what the word means.
This obsession with youth is sort of like how everything's new "on the Internet." Eventually the gleam will wear off, and society hopefully will realize that it's better to hire old people, just like it's better to hire master plumbers, 60-year-old architects, and gray-haired graphic designers. Steve Jobs, for NeXT's logo, paid $100,000 to Paul Rand, who was 72..
I'm a web programmer in my 30s, but I use vi, psql, and --- well, that's about it.
60? (Score:2)
He looks older than my 70 year old dad
Read his blog and lost interest (Score:3)
I don't care how long he's been doing it, sloppiness is a sign of a poor programmer.
Grumpy Old Geezer (Score:3)
As I near the end of a nominally successful electrical engineering career that spans the humble analog beginnings of automation to the roboticized present, I can look back and smile at what a smart-assed punk kid I was, deriding the old-timers with snot-nosed comments and the immeasurable over-confidence of youth.
Barring an early death, everyone gets old. Know what? I neither desire nor require the respect or veneration of the young. I got mine. As jobs get scarcer and pay less with each passing year, all I can say to the smartaleck young snerts is, "Suck it. See you in St. Croix."
On the other hand, ask me nicely and I'm happy to lend a helping hand.
Respect is a two-way street with no speed limit.
Read the blog. He still has something to give. (Score:2)
The advice seemed to come down to this: Take care of yourself and work for the government or just skip a career in programming altogether. The rest was made up of miscellaneous recollections.
I
Brace yourselves for mandatory fine arts majors! (Score:2)
So next to your CS degree you are going to need a fine arts major and better be a published author, recognized composer or important contemporary painter on top of 50+ years of working experience in a technology that's been around for 5 years oh and please do not be older than 25 because we all know from your 30s it is downhill, you cost 300 times "too much", experience doesn't mean anything and your are "not flexible".
It is becoming absolutely ridiculous what people seem to think a "real programmer" should
The Message (Score:1)
Retire from any job in 10 years using Homework and (Score:1)
Your only security is the money in the bank (or investment).
Even if your house is paid off, you still have to pay your property taxes, insurance (home and auto), food, water, power or you will lose that home.
Here is what I wish I knew 10 - 15 years ago...you can learn from my mistake (I am successfully doing this today as you should be.):
Follow Jim Cramer's Homework and Buy method of investing. Watch Mad Money Monday through Friday on CNBC at 6pm EDT. Pay $199 for his Action Alerts and follow along until you learn how. Read two of his many books: 'Sane Investing in an Insane World' and 'Get Rich Carefully' and follow his method of investing and you should be able to retire by year 8, 9 or 10 even with a minimum wage job. (And as a Programmer, you better be making more than minimum wage!)
No more fears of age discrimination by age 35 to 45 any longer as they need you, but you do not need them. That is real power and real stability, how much money you can generate each and every year for the rest of your life. As long as you are dependent on others, you will be at risk to become a laid off programmer that many will not hire. Heaven help you after 45 if you still have to work...our society does not want you to receive a retirement any more. And if that 401K is not managed by YOU...the reason its not growing are the hidden fees sucked out each and every year by whomever manages it for you. Waht a farce.
Here is how I got the $140 per week:
.36 percent tax rate, hopefully you have an accountant and are not paying 36%.)
$14,336.00 = ($7 per hour * 2048 hours per year) (takes out vacation, sick, etc...) = $14,336.00 per year in salary.
- $5,160.96 ($14,336.00 *
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$ 9,175.04 ~ (after tax yearly income on a job paying $7 per hour, should you get taxed at the max rate of 36%)
$ 176.44 ~ ($9,175.04 / 52 weeks)
$ -140.00 ~ saved each week to be ready to invest and not touch for at least 8 years....
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$ 36.44 ~ what you have left over to live on, after taxes and saving $140 to be invested.
$ 140.00 ~ If the minimum wage is raised to $11 per hour, you will be able to invest $140 and have $140 per week to live on. Perhaps if your car is paid off and you have no mortgage or rent payment you can do this...good luck if you do not do this while you are programming and making better than a minimum wage. Still would be hard if you have to many monthly revolving expenses above and beyond mortgage or rent...do your self a favor and limit any and all revolving charges.
Assumption: You save $140 per week in an account ready to be invested. When that account reaches between $750 and $2,000 you buy 20 - 25 shares of a stock costing between $30 and $80 per shares (see break out below). If you do this for 8 years, you will be close to $125,000.00 in your stock portfolio and earning more than $20,000 each and every year for the rest of your life.
Here is how it could work for anywone, even with a close ot minimum wage or minimum wage job.:
$140 per week ~ minimum in an investment account, when that account gets up over $750 dollars, buy 20 - 25 shares of a lower priced stock that you have personnally done the homework on.
$125,000.00 ~ Takes 8 - 10 years if only investing $140 per week. Faster if you invest more per week. Assuming you reinvest all the proceeds, assuming a 20% return (extremely conservative, I am over 30% and have a shot at 50% return this year) within 8 years you will have amassed this level in your stock investment portfolio.
$20,000 per year ~ The amount you can be sure you will earn on your $125K portfolio for the rest of your life. Probably more, this is very conservative. You will never fear that you will lose your paid off home because of property taxes, cost of insurance, etc...
$250,000.00 ~ Amount of your portfolio, 2 or 3 years after it reached $125K. Compounding is your friend and helps you amass wealth faster the more you have. At this level ($250K), you will never have to work at anything you do not want to again. You will never lose your home if its paid off. You will be able to afford vacations multiple times per year.
$50,000.00 per year ~ The amount you can be sure you will earn on your $250K portfolio for the rest of your life. Probably more, remember I am being extremely conservative.
. . . It only gets better from here, because you learned the value of deferred gratification and the compounding effect of money / investments.
This only works if you follow Jim Cramer's Buy and Homework method of investing talk in to the two books mentioned above. There are no short cuts, the more you make and put in investments, the faster you will reach true financialy independence.
Yes the market is rigged (google 'Flash Boys' its all true, and you can get ahead in spite of it) for those that trade in large volumes, however individual stock pickers can get ahead by following Jim's advice.
Investment income is taxed at a 15% rate, lower 10% if you have a great accountant and are very wealthy. Its how Mitt Romney managed to get a 10% tax rate that everyon
Not as "Grumpy" as I used to be, (Score:1)
I can still rail ( no joke) about how stupid Java is. I worked at Sun until 2004 and haven't worked a day since, now at age 67, but I used to be pissed off but I am not as much as I used to be. About six months ago I became enamored with Python, which I still respect. I am very impressed with the concepts of Literate Programming and reproducable results as I started off linking FORTRAN code with math and statistics libraries as a so-called scientific programmer. Now the researchers are able to do all this
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A that make you grumpy?