Civil Suit Filed, Involving the Time Zone Database 433
An anonymous reader writes "Arthur David Olson, the creator and maintainer of the timezone database used in about every unix/linux platform in use on the planet, just sent the message to the timezone mailing list: ?"
Astrolabe, Inc. v. Olson et al (Score:5, Informative)
Not a lot of detail here: [rfcexpress.com] [justia.com]
but appears to be a copyright infringement suit.
Astrology (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Astrology (Score:4, Funny)
Maybe they ran a prediction and it told them they would win.
Re:Astrology (Score:4, Funny)
Speaking as an astrologer, it would be interesting to know the precise time, date and place the suit was filed... I would absolutely expect that they'd time their initial filing to their own favor. Even though I don't read horary well at all, assuming Boston at high noon leads to interesting interpretations: The ruler of the 1st house (the plaintiff) in the 5th house (speculation) and being Jupiter (expansion) well-aspected by Pluto (The Man) certainly suggests abuse of power, a bit of recklessness or that someone's looking for a windfall. The ruler of the 7th house (the defendant) in the 10th (status, exemplar) and afflicted by several difficult aspects from Saturn, Uranus and the aforementioned Pluto doesn't bode well for the defendants, though Mars (the action principle) certainly works more toward their favor than Astrolabe's.
So, basically, if Astrolabe catches the attention of Anonymous, they will be fucked sooooo hard they won't even KNOW what time it is.
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That would be the one -. Same address as listed below in complaint.
Defenses and motivations (Score:5, Informative)?
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Ugh, astrolabe smells horrible, but some women swear by it.
Ohhh...
Re:Astrolabe, Inc. v. Olson et al (Score:5, Informative)
This blog article [thedailyparker.com] has an analysis of the action. It appears, essentially, that Astrolabe publishes an altas that the tz database is based on (in terms of reproducing time zone information from the atlas in the db):
I thought the issue of whether you could copyright facts (e.g., phone numbers, timezone values for specific locations) was already settled law.
Re:Astrolabe, Inc. v. Olson et al (Score:5, Insightful)
This is America, lawyers don't bother with minor details like the law before filing lawsuits. There's lawyer fees to be made!
Re:Astrolabe, Inc. v. Olson et al (Score:5, Interesting)
Looks like the Plaintiff's Lawyer don't care about a lot of things: "Sandwich Planning Board Member Julie C. Molloy Fined $3,000 for Improperly Representing Clients Before the Sandwich Zoning Board of Appeals" [mass.gov]
Re:Astrolabe, Inc. v. Olson et al (Score:5, Funny)
What the heck is a "Sandwich Planning Board Member"?
Well, obviously you can't just jump right in and make a sandwich. My God man, what if something goes wrong? You could have mayonnaise, pickles, and cold cuts everywhere! No, any responsible community will have a Sandwich Planning Board to ensure that sandwich preparation follows rigorous guidelines to avoid this kind of disaster. This Ms. Malloy probably represented to the Board that her clients were experienced in the proper production of PB&J sandwiches when in fact they had never successfully completed even a PB sandwich, never mind the added complexity introduced by the use of gelatinized fruit products.
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This is America, lawyers don't bother with minor details like the law before filing lawsuits. There's lawyer fees to be made!
Yes, but if an attorney fails to perform due diligence and leads his client down a garden path for the express purpose of overbilling he can get in some hot water.
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So what you're saying is that lawyers make so much money that they all have heated swimming pools at the end of their garden paths?
Re:Astrolabe, Inc. v. Olson et al (Score:5, Interesting)
The law may be settled but that doesn't stop people from filing suit anyway. They may either think they have a notable enough exception or they're just working with a lawyer who knows he's going to lose but is getting paid to do what the client tells him to do (after doing his due diligence of informing them of the probable outcome).
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While the outcome may be obvious, there's still a strategic advantage of stringing the whole thing out. The idea being that if you have deeper pockets, you'll force your opponent into bankruptcy. Sacrifice your own money to bleed them dry.
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While the outcome may be obvious, there's still a strategic advantage of stringing the whole thing out. The idea being that if you have deeper pockets, you'll force your opponent into bankruptcy. Sacrifice your own money to bleed them dry.
I have a feeling that their lawyer isn't quite aware of the hornet's nest she's stirred up here. The zoneinfo database is pretty much everywhere outside of Windows. There's even a copy on my iPhone. She's indirectly picked a fight with the largest corporation in America.
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Re:Astrolabe, Inc. v. Olson et al (Score:4, Interesting).
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Microsoft
I'm fairly sure that Windows does not use the zoneinfo database. Their time zone list is organized in a very different way, and it doesn't even use the time zone names the Unix world is used to, like America/New_York.
But pretty much everyone else does.
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You're looking at this from the wrong angle. It's not Astroglide^H^H^H^H^Hlabe v. the world. It's Astrolabe's lawyers v. the Astrolabe bank account. The lawyers aren't looking to win the case, they're looking to maximize billing hours.
Just ask SCO (Score:2)
Does IBM use time zone info? They're pretty good at squashing insects.
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Actually it's why we're better off without a "loser pays" system - if you're trying to sue a company the size of Microsoft or IBM, or they're trying to sue you, and they've got much better lawyers than you can afford, then you can't risk losing, because paying their legal costs will bankrupt you. So you can't risk suing them if they've ripped you off, and if they sue you, you're better off settling right away instead of fighting, even though you're right and they're wrong.
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I thought the issue of whether you could copyright facts (e.g., phone numbers, timezone values for specific locations) was already settled law.
I think facts are different than 'facts arranged in a database'.
Ever written a database...? It's a non-zero time event. I'd
want to get paid if someone used a db I created.
*Mind you I'm not making a direct statement about the
pending lawsuit since it seems there isn't much info.
-AI
Re:Astrolabe, Inc. v. Olson et al (Score:4, Interesting)
The facts were, to all appearances, copied out of a book and inserted into a database by the defendant. No selection was applied at any point; the time zones for every recognized country is included in both sources, so I don't think there's any argument that creativity is involved. I don't think database right applies here.
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That's a good point, and I would case the whole case will center around that issue.. Thanks for pointing it out so clearly.
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Actually, the work is transformative. The form of the facts was changed from the form in the book to the form in the database. Creativity was certainly involved there.
But that misses the point. It is 100% legal to copy phone books verbatim with no transformative work because they are just tables of facts. It isn't clear that these tables of facts even qualify for copyright protection at all, since they are very similar to telephone numbers and addresses listed in phone books.
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With that argument, I could make a database filled with the real number line from 1...n and copyright that because it took work to fill the database.
Think of the profits I could make....
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If you managed to create a database with every real number between 1 and n, for any value of n, (not just a program that can generate arbitrarily precise real numbers from that range) you would deserve a lot more than a copyright.
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* for any value of n not equal to one
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I think facts are different than 'facts arranged in a database'.
Not in U.S. [wikipedia.org]
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I have to ask: is "sweat-of-the-brow argument" an actual legal term?
Re:Astrolabe, Inc. v. Olson et al (Score:5, Informative)
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But whether or not any given defendant will surrender before fighting you for years to verify that is an open question.
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I believe it is possible to assert copyright on the formats in which the facts are presented, which may be the problem in this case. I don't know enough to say, but if they aren't just copying facts but structures containing the facts (and what fact doesn't have a structure?) there could be grounds..
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I emailed their sales department to inform them that I would be actively encouraging people to avoid their products. [alabe.com]
Of course they peddle astrology shit so it's not like I'd buy from them anyway.
Re:Astrolabe, Inc. v. Olson et al (Score:5, Informative)
As usual, IANAL, but...
The trouble is, you now CAN copyright databases. It's been made explicit in EU law, but I think it's still defensible under US law. The idea is that the organization of facts is copyrightable (take for example, encyclopedias, atlases, etc.). The trouble is, copyright transcends specific media, while a database separated from a specific medium is a mundane collection of facts. The argument here is that Olson's TZ database just cribbed Thomas Shanks' atlas.
This seems like it's troll action. They're not going to be able to get anything of value out of Olson, so they probably want to get a judgment against him as leverage for payments from companies that uses the timezone database through Linux. On the other hand, those companies would be insane not to just bankroll Olson's defense. It's seems like a pretty weak case in a gray area, so it could go either way. Since Olson has announced his desire to retire from the project, I guess this was a "now or never" opportunity for the trolls.
As a side note, the infowars portion of the suit has begun. The reference to Shanks on the "Tz database" page was added as close to the top as could be managed by user JulDes on Sept. 3, which seems to be the day the account was created. As of May 2006, "Thomas Shanks" on Wikipedia redirected to Irish footballer Tommy Shanks. As of One month ago, it now instead has information on the otherwise unknown author of the American Atlas, 1978, ACS publications. The editing account, "TZ Master" seems to have been created expressly for the purpose 5 minutes earlier.
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From JulDes' user page and contributions, I see no reason to assume he or she is part of the Evil Astrolabe Cabal, either.
Other than the fact that every single contribution is focused on inserting information about the importance and notability of Thomas G. Shanks as the author of "The most extensive collection of timezone and daylight saving time history data has been published by Thomas Shanks in two volumes The American Atlas (1978) and The International Atlas (1985)." (quoting JulDes' interpolation in
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About Astrology software? I have no idea how this could work. Only thing I can find is [alabe.com], but I have no idea how that could be tied to the timezone database. Then again, filing a lawsuit requires absolutely nothing more than the desire to file a lawsuit.
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I can't help you there but I've got a hot time from their website, it's a good time to meet females!
Applying Moon Trine Mercury
Communications flow smoothly now. Feelings and emotions are expressed naturally. It's a good time for meetings with females.
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Even better. It applies to us!
Applying Venus Trine Neptune
This transit stimulates artistic creativity, spiritual inclinations, and romantic interests. Rules and restrictions are relaxed and there is compassion for the less fortunate.
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because astrologers are one group of people who do give a shit about historic timezone information and hence keep a database of it that they claim was copied.
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Then again, filing a lawsuit requires absolutely nothing more than the desire to file a lawsuit.
That is not true. You also have to pay a filing fee.
Given he had retirement plans how unfortunate (Score:5, Informative)
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Might be a shakedown.. IETF probably has deeper pockets than ado and may have motivation to make this go away so they can keep the thing running.
Complaint Text (Score:5, Informative)
I've pulled the complaint from PACER and uploaded it to docstoc: [docstoc.com]
Re:Complaint Text (Score:4, Interesting)
So, it appears that ACS is trying to claim copyright on the timezone historical data that they've compiled - and that's used in the TZ database.
Under Feist v Rural, information which has no "creative expression" is not copyright-able - but in this case, Olson can easily claim it doesn't apply.
This will be interesting.
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Yeah, oops.
:)
I meant, Astrolabe can claim it doesn't apply.
Re:Complaint Text (Score:4, Interesting)
OK, so it's a copyright infringement case, claiming that ACS Atlas's compilation of historical time zone data was copied. It seems that this would fall under the "phone book" interpretation of copyright (facts cannot be copyrighted but their presentation can be) does anyone know if this ACS American Atlas software contained these historical time zones as tzdata source files that could have been copied?
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PACER (Score:5, Informative)
COMPLAINT, REQUEST FOR INJUNCTIVE RELIEF, RESTRAINING ORDER,
DAMAGES AND TRIAL BY JURY
Parties
1. Plaintiff, Astrolabe, Inc. [hereinafter “Astrolabe”], is a for-profit
Massachusetts corporation with a principal place of business at 350 Underpass
Road, P.O. Box 1750, Brewster, Barnstable County, Commonwealth of
Massachusetts 02631, and is engaged in the business of publication, marketing
and sale, including computer software publications and/or programs
pertaining to the field of astrology.
2. Defendant, Arthur David Olson [hereinafter “Olson”], is an individual with a
last and usual residence at 7406 Hancock Avenue, #2, Takoma Park,
Maryland 20912, and with a usual an ordinary place of business as a computer
specialist at the Laboratory of Experimental Carcinogenesis, Building 37,
Room 4146A, National Cancer Institute, National Institute of Health, 37
Convent Drive, MSC 4262, Bethesda, Maryland 20892.
3. Defendant, Paul R. Eggert [hereinafter “Eggert”], is an individual with a last
and usual residence in the State of California, who is engaged in the business
of computer services and programming, and employed as a lecturer with the
University of California, Los Angeles, Computer Science Department, with a
principal business address of: UCLA Computer Science, Box 951596,
4532JBH, Los Angeles, Calfiornia 90095-1596.
Case 1:11-cv-11725-GAO Document 1 Filed 09/30/11 Page 1 of 5
Jurisdiction
4. Pursuant to a written agreement, Astrolabe is the copyright assignee of the
and information contained therein, pursuant to the Copyright Protection Act,
17 U.S.C. Section 101, et seq., known as the “ACS Atlas,” consisting of both
the “ACS International Atlas,” and the “ACS American Atlas,” in the form of
computer software program(s) and/or data bases, and in the form of electronic
output and future electronic media from said programs [hereinafter “the Works”].
5..
6. Upon information and belief, defendants Olson and Eggert have unlawfully
reproduced the Works, in violation of the Copyright Protection Act, without
proper permission and/or authorization from the copyright holder, and without
paying royalties due and payable to the copyright holder and/or its assignee,
Astrolabe, in computer software format.
7. Plaintiff, Astrolabe publishes, markets and sells its ACS Atlas programs (the
Works) for commercial profit purposes to, inter alia, those interested and/or
engaged in the business and field of astrology seeking to determine the
historical time at any given time in any particular location, world-wide.
8. In connection with its rights to reproduce the Works, plaintiff Astrolabe is
contractually obligated to pay royalties to the owner/assignor of the copyright
and the authors of the same.
Facts
9. Defendant Olson’s unauthorized reproduction of the Works have been
published at [nih.gov], where the references to
historic international time zone data is replete with references to the fact that
the source for this information is, indeed, the ACS Atlas.
10. In connection with his unlawful publication of some and/or any portion of the
Works, defendant Olson has wrongly and unlawfully asserted that this
information and/or data is “in the public domain,” in violation of the
protections afforded by the federal copyright laws.
11. Defendant Eggert’s unauthorized repro
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The document in PDF format will be here shortly: [scribd.com]
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he's citing sources for a collection of facts.
How the hell is this case not already thrown out?
Collections of facts can not be copywritten
presentation of those facts can be, thus, since he is presenting the facts in another way he is not infringing on that.
-nB
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Right as in right to copy. Not Write as in pencil.
The porpoise of copyright is to codify who has the right (not write) to copy.
(The word I am looking for is 'purpose'.)
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Underpass road? Sure sound like trolls to me!
Information is not protected by USA copyright. (Score:3)
Under USA law all information and data is in the public domain. Only creative expression is protected by copyright.
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Under USA law all information and data is in the public domain. Only creative expression is protected by copyright.
Try that with scores for NFL games. Some data is creative expression.
This data isn't, as the atlas was created from other people's facts.
So the problem here is that the TZ database admits it took the data from the atlas.
Personally I see it as fair use of facts that didn't belong to the plaintiff. You'd think their lawyer would see it that way and tell them not to waste their money.
Er... (Score:3)
#include <std/disclaimer.h>
#include <std/ianal.h>
NFL's weapon in this context is trademark, not copyright. You can talk about the score when Oakland played Pittsburgh all day long, but if you mention the teams' actual names in a commercial context you'll likely need a license. That's also why so many ads for sports bars talk about watching the "big game" or "football championship". NFL's trademark enforcement is so over-the-top I've actually heard radio ads where they lampooned it (and pro
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You can't talk about the information created by a game at all in a money-making context without making yourself legally liable to the league.
NBA tried to claim that in NBA v. STATS [goo.gl]. At 1088, 1093, 1094 [come on Google, put in page and paragraph anchors!]:
NBA games do not constitute "original works of authorship" and thus do not fall within the subject matter of copyright protection
... I decline NBA's invitation to stretch the Copyright Act's grant of exclusivity to subject matters so far removed and qualitatively different from those at the core of its protection. ... Similarly, NBA has failed to show an infringement of its copyright in the broadcasts of NBA games. ... The mere fact that the information conveyed by defendants often is acquired by viewing the broadcasts of NBA games does not alter the fact that defendants have not copied the "`constituent elements of the [broadcasts of NBA games] that are original.'"
A state law claim of misappropriation was dismissed on appeal on the basis that federal copyright law preempts the state law. The 2nd Circuit's decision [goo.gl] at 851 quotes Computer Associates v. Altai [goo.gl] at 717 (this case is a good read for the Slashdot crowd: copyright, trade secret and software): [goo.gl].
That said, the above case law may be merely academic if the sports leagues are just trying to run you out
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That's news to me! I'd like to repeat it, if true, with more information than "I read it on a forum"... can you recall specifically how you heard about that?
Has to do with TZ change dates (Score:5, Informative).
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Reminds me of those YOU BETTER NOT COPY THIS DVD OR WE'LL CALL THE DVD LAW ON YOU AND THROW YOUR BUTT IN DVD JAIL messages I see at the start of DVDs loaded with content from the Public Domain.
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Here's a decent and quick summary, clipped in part from the complaint. Short version: Astrolabe, Inc. has purchased the copyright to the American Atlas
Purchased it as in "they, rather than ACS, own it now", or licensed it, so that they're not the ultimate owners, they're just a licensee? The complaint says
Source is on and others (Score:2)
Hang on, (Score:3)
If I'm correct then the answer to this suit should be a very short "Fuck off, Troll"
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In a sane world? Yes. Here on earth? Maybe.
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Unfortunately, the suit is already filed. "Fuck off, Troll" might be an appropriate response to one of the extortionist nastygrams they tend to send ahead of time, but doing so now would just lead to all sorts of unpleasantness (default judgments and/or contempt, etc...)
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So what lawyer do I write a check to so they go after the throat of the troll?
Frivolous lawsuit? (Score:2)
Since facts cannot be copyrighted, surely this is a case where you file for damages, legal fees, and demand sanctions against the opposing attorney?
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Facts you find can't be copyrighted. Facts you create can be copyrighted. Just try writing a story about a basketball game for your newspaper without a letter in the paper's files from the NBA saying you can publish it.
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Facts obviously can't be copyrighted, but if I made a piece of 'art' made up of simple facts on a piece of paper, that piece of 'art' would be copyrighted but not the underlying facts.
Could you claim a database is that piece of 'art'?
It's a pathetic copyright troll to be sure, but I'm just playing devil's advocate.
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Please, this is the legal world. A simple "We refer you to the reply given in the case of Arkell v. Pressdram [wikipedia.org]" would be more appropriate.
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Hold on there... that's for the judge to decide in a courtroom, in the game of justice. Much like the game of chicken, the only way to win is to go full speed ahead and hope the other side runs out of money first. It takes money to play the game right, and come out on top.
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answers to lawsuits are hardly ever short and never cheap. But I hope he gets to countersue for vexatious litigation and recoup at least 100% of his lawyer's fees.
They don't have to countersue for vexation litigation. USC section on Copyright is one of the few area of the law where you can make a claim for expenses in defending against a copyright lawsuit. The case should be over and done with a summary judgment for the defendants.
They've stirred the hornet's nest (Score:2)
Cue legal support from IBM, Apple and the EFF in 3...2...1...
The database holds timezone information...about different timezones. Did they pay the world's governments the royalties for publishing their countries' priviliged info? That is clearly a trademark violation!
Option B: Some company wielding a patent for a 'database schema specifically designed to maintain timezone information' is going after him --- with the added claim that by warning everyone in advance, he would be facilitating the propagation of the patented schema/design, resulting in a further patent vi
the end of timezones? (Score:2)
It is too much to hope, but what is this eliminated the use of timezones? One global clock to rule them all!!
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That'd suck. I already wake up too early.
Astrolo-GY?! (Score:2)
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What, did their crystal ball tell them they'd win in court?
No, but perhaps the stars and planets did.
End Copyright (Score:2)
That most would rather settle than pay t
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In this case, the copyright law doesn't have to be modified. It already specifies that facts cannot be copyrighted.
I think what you want is tort reform.
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Can we PLEASE overhaul / ditch copyright law already?
No, we can't. Not because it's a bad idea, but because on the side of copyright as it is we have all the big media companies which every single politician depends on for a successful campaign.
Outcome predictions obvious (Score:4, Insightful)
The defendant in this case should file an immediate claim for recover of damages for the down time suffered plus attorneys fees.
It is facts being copied, not a creative work. The facts are coming from other sources -- they are not making these facts up out of thin air. That they collected and sold the facts is not relevant -- there is no blood, sweat or tears to be accounted for in copyright claims. We have seen this before in phone books, in baseball statistics and more. I can't think of a single instance where factual data was protected by copyright and succeeded in court. (I even recall an attempt at a city or county government asserting copyright claims over laws! You know, the words on pages we are all bound by?)
So unless someone can cite a case where it was facts (and not formatting) that were successfully protected in court under copyright law, I don't think this case will fly too high.
This will be expensive for defendants, however and so I would recommend preparing to collect damages sooner rather than later.
Atlas companies have used copyright traps (Score:3, Insightful)
Atlas companies have used copyright traps before.. Just add a couple fake towns on your map, and if you find another company selling a map with those towns, you know you can sue them for copying your map.
Could a company add a fake time zone to a list of time zones, name it something funny (creative), and claim copyright infringement when it appears in a database? Since really, it's not a fact at all, the made up entry was... art?
ACS database (Score:3, Informative)
Astrolabe is surely not going to win this (Score:3, Informative)
This is an outrageous attack against a case of perfectly legal use of published data.
Where tzdata has used information from ACS atlas, it quotes it source (Thomas Shanks, former employee of ACS Inc, San Diego, who appears as author on the printed books American Atlas and International Atlas).
In each case, the information published by Shanks was critically reviewed by the tzdata community. In many cases, Shanks' information was rejected, in many cases it was accepted over other contradicting (or confirming) information..
The two books by Shanks consist to 95% of lists of towns with longitude and latitude, their assignment to counties or provinces, and their assignment to timezone
history tables. tzdata uses NOTHING of this information, as tzdata does not contain assignments of towns to zones, except the single town in each zone used for naming it.
Shanks has about 2000 of different timezone history tables, they make up about 5% of the books volume.
tzdata has only about 400 different timezone history tables, because tzdata is historically not complete. It is only complete for the post 1970 era (where ACS is incomplete, and where ACS newer editions have used a lot of data taken from tzdata. Legitmately without quoting the source, as tzdata is public domain.)
Tzdata quotes Shanks for about 100 of these tables (I gues, I did not count), as one of the sources of historical timezone information.
In each case, the data given of Shanks were critically reviewed.
A perfectly legitimate use of published data.
The information about which time public clocks showed at a particular date in a particular country or region is by its very nature public information. It is not subject to copyright. Shanks does not own it, he has only collected it, and he is as often false as other collectors are sometimes false.
The use tzdata makes of such information is fully legitimate. It did by no means copy data from these books. It critically reviewed some of the information found there, and used a small amount (maybe 1% of the book content) in a completely different context and different representation.
The attempt by Astrolabe to claim private rights on public domain data must be forcefully resisted by the tzdata community.
I would hope that large users of tzdata, like Apple (in IOS and MAC OS-X), Redhat and other Linux distributors etc will contribute to a defense fund for Olson, and/or contribute legal assistance.
Plus: Astrolabe has very little money
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I'm sorry, that information is copyrighted.
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But, is it used in any unix/linux platforms not in use on the planet? What about off the planet?
Seems simple... The ones not in use have no need of timezone info. The ones on different planets would need timezones for whatever planet they are on.
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Not necessarily. I hear that the Galactinet Engineering Task Force mandates that dates transmitted between planets be converted to and from Galactic Standard Time, to avoid planet-specific restrictions on timezone information. To do that, you'd obviously need the offset, which will vary according to where the locality is.
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The space vessel would be using GST (and likely transmit GST). It shoud be the base station that received the communication that converts it to local standard. If it wasn't setup that way... it should be.
;)
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Y'know, the IETF doesn't seem to have a copy of the GETF standard on this, would you be interested in helping me set up a working group so we can get the RFC to them, say around the April timeframe?
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The Time Zone Database lists the time zone for different places on Earth. If you are not on Earth the database is of little use to you.
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Not necessarily. If the plaintiffs are the usual Eliza bots, memory doesn't extend beyond extracting keywords from the previous reply.
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oh, I can't imagine why...
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Lawyers need to be reigned in
Yes. I suggest a noose. A garotte could work, too. To paraphrase Douglas Adams: "A:you hear they are executing lawyers now?" B: "Oh yeah? for what offense?" A:"What do you mean, offense?", although in that case he was referring to insurance people...
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Did Jesus actually get much coverage on his death?