Oracle and Sun Team Up to Provide .NET Alternative 335
segphault writes "Ars Technica has an article about the new partnership between Sun and Oracle, designed to provide an alternative to .NET." From the article: ."
hilarity (Score:3, Interesting)
As is their AIM methodology.
In fact, Oracle Apps downloads are unsigned, untrusted. You have to open the browser (and it must be IE) pretty dern wide to use it.
Which version? (Score:2)
The reason I ask is that most people seem to use the Java front-end or the HTML front-end. I haven't seen people use ActiveX at all with eBusiness Suite or Oracle database....
Just checking the install that I have... yup that just uses Java as well.
I can't find ActiveX anywhere on the various Oracle products I've got installed at the moment.
Re:Which version? (Score:3, Interesting)
As is the entire AIM (Application Implementation Methodology) suite.
The eCommerce suite (CRM, iStore, iSupplier Portal, et al) avoids this issue entirely, as would an alternate method to download the JRE. But the "standard" implementation of Oracle Apps wil require opening the security settings wide like I said.
Correction to above post (Score:2)
But AIM is still ActiveX so the original point halfway stands.
Pricing... (Score:4, Funny)
What!? I remember when Oracle and Sun charging was based on how much money fell out your pockets when they turned you upside down and shook you.
Seriously though, an alternative is nice, but isn't that alternative already here and called Java? I suppose a nice end-to-end branding a-la
Re:Pricing... (Score:5, Interesting)
If I compare Java and
I'm not talking about being platform independent, robustness or things directly related to merits of some programming language or enviroment, but more about how many potential people have access
For example, VB programmer may with some training be able to move his old VB code's business logic to
Besides Microsoft with it's traditional method, is trying to support
So I can understand why Ellison is trying to do what he is. as he sees that
It's coming fast, where I'm looking at it.
Re:Pricing... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Pricing... (Score:2, Interesting)
What is truly mind boggling is the apparent conclusion that Java's correct "answer" to
Re:Pricing... (Score:2)
But so what? The client side is rapidly being taken over by JavaScript/HTML and to a lesser extent, Flash.
Re:Pricing... (Score:5, Informative)
It is not just a matter of training - VB.NET has many differences from VB.
and that way looking far ahead of Java where you can only 'plug in' with Java only.
I really don't know how people come up with statements like this. The facts could not be more different. There are more than 200 different languages than run on the JVM. A large proportion of them integrate well with Java, and can used Java classes and libraries. There are implementations of LISP, Ruby, Python, Basic, Modula, Pascal, Fortran and even COBOL. There are currently far more languages implemented on the JVM than on
Re:Pricing... (Score:2)
Re:Pricing... (Score:2)
The support depends on the vendor - there are many vendors for non-Java languages on the JVM. Naturally, support will vary.
Still, when someone says a product works with
Re:Pricing... (Score:2) C# or VB.NET; .NET Windows Forms applications with any language.) All of these languages are supported out of the box with Visual Studio 2005.
Tell me again how VB.NET differs from C#, aside from the syntax candy. Last I checked, they supporte
Re:Pricing... (Score:2)
Automatic type casting (where appropriate);
Late binding; Functions like IsNumeric, IsNothing, etc.;
the My namespace (in 2.0);
other things I can't remember right now
There are less things an inexperienced programmer has to worry about in VB.NET than in C# -- they can simply ignore what type a variable is and just use it, most of the time (e.g. SomeInt = SomeString will compile and hopefully work, if SomeString can be converted properly.) Many of the changes to VB are nec
Re:Pricing... (Score:2)
Of course you can mix and match data structures between these languages.
It's not just about a shitty byte code that was designed only to run with one langauge... it's a much richer environment. Making other languages run on the JVM is like jogging in high heels - you can do it, but you'd be better off with a pair of trainers.
Utter nonsense.
Re:Pricing... (Score:4, Informative)
Liar... certainly not in the way that
You can use any class or data structure written in one language on the JVM in any other, providing it is a compiled class. There are no restrictions. In OOP languages you can inherit from any other class, no matter what the language the original was written in. Just like
The words "byte code" apparently shot right over your head, just like many of the crappy things about Java.
Why can't we have a polite debate?
The JVM was designed to run Java -- and it shows.
and the CLR was designed to run languages like C#, J# and VB.NET - and it shows! Perhaps you ought to read some of the development blogs of various language implementors.
Re:Pricing... (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem with this statement is that it assumes that the JVM design was 'brain damaged'. It wasn't. There were very specific design considerations which it met well: To be easily JITted/translated to native code, to be a compact code and the well suit procedural/OOP language Java.
The
The idea that the JVM is 'brain damaged' is just ranting. The sheer number of languages successfully implemented on the JVM provide the clearest possible evidence against this statement. Things could certainly be better, and it is likely that new opcodes will be added to future versions to make implementation of dynamic languages easier.
But anyway, one developer's 'brain damage' is another developer's sensible choice, so using such terms is meaningless.
Re:Pricing... (Score:2)
Re:Pricing... (Score:2)
On the other hand, Java is still waaaay more modular for almost any server application than
Javas biggest coup (Score:2)
Javas biggest implementation will be application/menu/programming layers in the forthcoming Blue Ray DVD standard.
To
Re:Pricing... (Score:2)
Re:Pricing... (Score:2)
Re:Pricing... (Score:2)
Wrong. VB.Net is very, very different to VB6 to the point where much of the code will have to be rewritten to either run or run well. Not to mention that there will be extensive training required for VB6 developers to learn the more OO ways of VB.Net.
and that way looking far ahead of Java where you can only 'plug in' with Java only.
Wrong. There are many languages that will run on the JVM e.g. Py
Re:Pricing... (Score:2)
-matthew
Re:Pricing... (Score:2)
No, that
Re:Pricing... (Score:2)
No,
Re:Pricing... (Score:2)
I'd give it a shot (Score:2)
Hopefully they'd put some effort into making sure it is at least as secure as
That's funny... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:That's funny... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:That's funny... (Score:2)
I think they should have renamed EJB3 to something else, it is going to suffer from it's name being associated with the madness that was EJB.
Re:That's funny... (Score:2)
The real funny thing is that the article is a cross between an anti-Microsoft flame and another newsvertisement.
TFA also says, "Both companies have lost a lot of relevance in the modern world, where cost-effective open source software and disposable commodity hardware reign supreme."
Oops. That is the meat of the article. Its hard to keep stock prices up when you are "loosing relevance" in your area of doing business. Stock plot here [yahoo.com].
Offtopic, but I have to know.
Re:That's funny... (Score:2)
For example here's the Dow Jones Industrial Average for ~80 years:
Log: =l&q=l& [yahoo.com]
Re:That's funny... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:That's funny... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:That's funny... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:That's funny... (Score:2, Informative)
Same binary code, and as long as you stay within the System namespace you should be fine. True if you use some external dll that pinvokes things (only supplying methods for windows), or you pinvoke things yourself, its not cross platform. However it's generally bad practice to pinvoke things yourself, and many libs that use PInvoke provide cross platform solutions.
No cross platform solution can really be perfect, especially
Some odd reason (Score:3, Interesting)
Proprietary (Score:5, Insightful)
The whole JDK1.5 API is public and totaly available to be implemented by anyone (). Also there is already a 98%-complete implementation of it (). OTOH, only a small part of
(that said, the most used Java Platform (Sun) is still proprietary)
Re:Proprietary (Score:2)
Mono provides only a small subset of
.NET.
You are welcome to go one all you like about how you like the Java standards story better than the
.NET standards story, but you really need to stop making this demonstrably false claim about Mono's API coverage.
As you can see here [ximian.com], Mono covers about 98% of the v 1.1 (Everett) framework, which is what most shops still use. This is comparable to the JDK 1.5 implementation you just touted!
And as you can see here [ximian.com], Mono already covers about 90% of the just-relea
Re:Proprietary (Score:2)
Re:Proprietary (Score:2)
No I don't think the JCP is a standard organization. But ISO is. There is a big difference between an auto-proclaimed association of companies and an official organization supported by governements.
As you wrote, a lot of
Concerning the changes in 1.5
Re:Proprietary (Score:2)
No, it is an association of companies. Same for OASIS (that also includes non-for-profit organizations). OTOH, ISO is the standard organization. By definition, standards are supported by governments, nationaly (national standard organization) or internationaly (by delegation).
As a sysadmin... (Score:4, Interesting)
My point here is that I feel for the people who will be administering this system - all of those sleepless nights troubleshooting transient failures with no fixes or even causes. Oh well, they made their bed, I suppose.
Re:As a sysadmin... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:As a sysadmin... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:As a sysadmin... (Score:2)
I've never once seen a piece of Java code running on an approved JVM do anything approaching the travesty of Win* being taken out by a piece of code.
It's the developers! (Re:As a sysadmin... ) (Score:5, Informative)
I have java servlets used by over 2000 people 24x7. When was the last time I had to restart the JVM? Dec 2002. I also have 8 java (jsp) web applications used by 200,000 ISP customers 24x7. JVM uptimes range from 2 years to several months. On the flipside, i have applications that need to be restarted every week.
The difference? The developers.
imitation... (Score:5, Insightful)
Rather than teaming with Larry Elliscum, a better move for Sun would be to open Java up to the ECMA/ISO for standardization.
Re:imitation... (Score:3, Funny)
I'm sure that's on ISO's to-do list, but they're waiting to receive the standards documentation for PHP.
What, like Office 12 XML? (Score:4, Insightful)
Why exactly would that help? Right now the Java standards are open to input from a wide range of voices, from individual developers through open source communities like Apache to corporations like Oracle and IBM. No voice has overall control, no-one can force through self-serving capabilities and everyone gets to use the specifications royalty free. All of them know their contributions can be implemented as open source yet that the market in which they operate can't be monopolised by any single company.
Sun started ECMA standardisation and then realised half-way through the process that it was going to produce the worst of all worlds; a rubber-stamp for the work Sun had done, with no input from any communities and a freezing of the specs by the ECMA dinosaur, combined with a loss of the ability to enforce the Java trademark and an inevitable embrace-and-extend by companies like Microsoft and IBM. Sun should have worked this out before starting with ECMA but fortunately realised in time and pulled out of the process. The result was the creation of the JCP and the most open, competitive software market the computer industry has yet seen.
Microsoft fully understands the PR value of ECMA and is cynically using it to rubber stamp it's Office 12 XML format to undermine the openness of OpenDocument. That action has done us the good service of showing us just how intellectually bankrupt ECMA actually is. What the Java platform needs is not the destruction ECMA would bring, but rather the further evolution of the JCP, which is working better than pretty much any standards body before it and is only hampered by the public perception of Sun control.
Re:What, like Office 12 XML? (Score:2)
You're dreaming; the entire JCP is there to "force through self-serving capabilities". Worse, because Sun's mandatory compatibility requirements, if you don't implement all their shit, you can't implement any of it. And the result is that there are no third party Java implementations--only Sun's implementations and its derivative.
and everyone gets to use the specifications royalty free.
"Royalty free" in that you don't have to
Re:imitation... (Score:2)
Run a
fix java or give it up to the community (Score:4, Insightful)
i'm also sick of J2EE containers with class loaders schemes that are more complicated than my senior year algebraic structures course.
build a linker into java just like
than allow versioning of libraries.
then get rid of checked exceptions so i don't have to do try/catch/wrap/rethrows(or do nothing) in 90% of my J2EE code.
then get rid of stateful, local session beans - how redudant is that???
then find a way to get rid of the 14 million defines i need in my server.xml to specify which implementation of each 'open, standard' interface i need
so, java as a language - it's ok
java as a platform - SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
left java for
Re:fix java or give it up to the community (Score:2, Informative)
So unpack the jar files into a common directory and re-archive them all together. They're basically just renamed zip files.
War files are intended to be independent: that's what they're for. They are meant to be a drop-in web application piece.
Re:fix java or give it up to the community (Score:2)
Except that all the libraries throw regular, checked, Exceptions. You can catch them and rethrow a runtime exception, but it's still a nuisance.
Re:fix java or give it up to the community (Score:2)
Once in a while you may get 5 mod points, you may use these mod points on any post in any thread (any article) with the only limitation that you may NOT participate (e.g. post non anymously) in a discussion where you used your mod points, nor may you moderate in a discussion where you moderated.
You also get mod points faster if you meta-mod a lot, I think.
While you're supposed to act fairly and impartially when moderating, not everyone does it and most
/. users use the moderation system to push forward th
Um... (Score:2, Flamebait)
Re:Um... (Score:2)
Flamebait? /. is fading.. (Score:2)
But at the end of the day keeping our tech budget low means making compromises, sometimes the right ones, sometimes the wrong ones. The less closed-source software we are locked into the better. After all, the point is being profitable and
.NET in the data-centre.... (Score:3, Funny)
So the world's largest database vendor is paring up with the world's largest big server provider as competition to Windows and
Sounds like Microsoft joining up with Dell to compete with Apple on the desktop.
Re:.NET in the data-centre.... (Score:2)
Sun is not the "world's largest big server provider".
read my mind (Score:5, Funny)
J2EE... we need a change (Score:3, Insightful)
Get your facts together (Score:3, Insightful)
IMO some "reporters" only read what they want to read. Sun already has Java and it has got quite a big foothold to last. Solaris 10 is also kicking some serious ass. Why on earth would they want to directly confront a company like MS when they can easily expand their own market and slowly strengthen their position ? IMVHO the big competitor for Sun is Linux at this time. Something clearly displayed when looking at Novell which almost immediatly started "OpenSuSE" after the release of OpenSolaris. Coincedence? I wonder...
This step has IMO nothing to do with
Utopia? Then why is Oracle also jumping on the "opening up some products [oracle.com]" bandwagon ?
No, I don't think MS has much to worry, Sun is targeting another audience here.
you're dreaming (Score:2)
The reason for OpenSuSE was Fedora Core, and the reason for Fedora Core was competition Debian and other free Linux distributions.
Dot Java Programmers Wanted! (Score:2, Funny)
Qualifications:
5+ years Java, J2EE
4+ years Microsoft Dot Net
4+ years Sun Dot Java
3+ Internet Explorer Programming
** Attention to detail
** Likes to work on mulitple projects simultaneously
** Excellent communication skills (written, verbal and other)
** Must be able to work 50+ hours per week
** Up to 90% travel
** No benefits!
Who needs Sun ONE, when you can have Sun ZERO! (Score:2)
Seriously, I doubt world needs yet another infrastructure (even assuming this one will be Java-based). The only thing that I see happening by
SAP, not .NET (Score:2, Informative)
Read the source (article), Luke!
According to the article linked to by arsdigita [techtarget.com], this is not about
.NET at all, but about SAP. It looks to me like Oracle is actively porting its middleware to Java in order to claim that they are easier to develop for and less proprietary than SAP's counterparts. Sun and Oracle will promote each other's non-competing products as a part of this deal.
still dont like java (Score:2)
alternative? FIX JAVA (Score:2)
Mkay. (Score:2)
We'll see. Consider that it's coming from the software and hardware company legendary for their high prices.
oh my (Score:2)
Oh for the love of FSM -- Scott & Larry, GROW (Score:2)
QUIT running your companies like vengefull morons bent on doing everything with a goal of hurting Microsoft. Its getting predictable, boring, and less and less profitable.
Larry, you're not selling enough of your application suite to matter to anyone. Sorry to break that to you. Market share wise, you're still a database company and lately you're getting your clock cle
Re:Isn't this what EJB was supposed to be (Score:2, Insightful)
that hasn't stopped people from using EJB, though, and for some even liking it - remember that ignorance is bliss
people have used it because they were told that it was the right thing to do
however, in doing so, they have suffered serious productivity losses
if you notice,
why is this? IT REALLY IS AN UNNECESSARY TECHNOLOGY! for many reasons.
and if you look at EJB 3.0,
Re:Isn't this what EJB was supposed to be (Score:2)
people have used it because they were told that it was the right thing to do
however, in doing so, they have suffered serious productivity losses
Yes, like the most successful site on the net - EBay - which is based almost entirely on J2EE/EJB.
if you notice,
why is this? IT REALLY IS AN UNNECESSARY TECHNOLOGY! for many reasons
and if you look at EJB 3.0, it is so
Re:Isn't this what EJB was supposed to be (Score:2, Informative)
but, they had this pie in the sky idea that EJB would become an enterprise component model for distributed computing.
Session beans were designed to be kind of a modern day CORBA implementation, in fact using IIOP as their wire level protocol.
Entity beans were designed to be a kind of coarse grained persistent component model.
And for 1999, it was a novell concept.
What people ended up trying to do with them is create web applications.
Entity beans were used, often poorly, as a general OR
Re:Isn't this what EJB was supposed to be (Score:2)
so, sun will have to do something again.
Why? It does not matter whether or not there are open source versions of Java. What matters is whether they pass the compatibility tests, so they can be labelled 'Java'. Sun have stated that they are entirely happy with this. There are many open source implementations of Java APIs that have passed such tests - indeed many of the reference versions of thes
J2EE??!!!! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Predictions (Score:2)
Re:Predictions (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Predictions (Score:2)
Re:Predictions (Score:2)
Re:How does Eclipse fit in with this? (Score:2)
Re:How does Eclipse fit in with this? (Score:2)
I actually laughed out loud, but after about a second I realized you were serious.
I admit, it is a little unclear how a product can be a 'datacenter platform' and also a '.NET competitor', given that the two things hardly overlap at all.
I wouldn't be surprised if this was really a set of Java wrappers for Oracle Fusion, bundled up for Solaris 10 to create a one-step solution for getting a datacenter going. The weakness of such a product would, of course, be that it has Fusion
Re:How does Eclipse fit in with this? (Score:2)
As I see it, they are simply going to bundle existing stuff to porovide a standardized platform. Sun hardware running Solaris, with Oracle databases and Oracle's Fusion app server running Java web apps.
.NET is likely mentioned as the competitor to Java. Oracle and Solaris are going to do their damndest to get big business to pick Java. Currently they d
Re:OK (Score:2)
Java frameworks: Which are good for web apps? (Score:2)
I'm a CS student (still doing the foundation courses) and one of my courses is a one-year software project. We have to design and implement a replacement for an online bibliography. As the CS department is somewhat Java-centric we have to do it with JSP (or pure servlets, if we dislike JSP for some reason). That by itself is not much of a problem, although Java might be a bit heavy for a site
Re:Java frameworks: Which are good for web apps? (Score:2)
Java's web presentation framework is JSF, Java Server Faces. It runs on top of standard JSP pages. It is quite similar to WebForms on ASP.NET and they even give you a "rather good" free IDE with a visual form designer. e ator/index.jsp [sun.com]
To facilitate your database access try to use Object Relational Mapping. Ruby on rails guys get Active Record by default. You can try one of these: [java-source.net]
Re:Java frameworks: Which are good for web apps? (Score:2)
By the way, the GPL is no point against MySQL, as we are supposed to opensource our app anyway. However, the fact that even the JDBC connectors are GPL'd will make picking a license much ea
Re:Java frameworks: Which are good for web apps? (Score:2)
As for MySQL, I don't bother with it because of the license issues. Basically, pay for a license or GPL your code.
Re:Java frameworks: Which are good for web apps? (Score:2)
Re:Geeez (Score:2)
Does that imply that the Empire will be divided, say, an OS in the West, and an Office suite in the East, and the East hang around for another thousand years after the FOSSian hordes have crossed the Columbia to re-partition the buggy carcass of the West?
Re:This misses the point (Score:2)
Sun aren't just competing with
Re:This misses the point (Score:2)
Just FUD. Swing is whatever you want it to look like - the look and feel is pluggable. As for slow, it is OpenGL and DirectX accelerated.
Re:This misses the point (Score:2)
Why not try a recent version? Things have changed hugely. It really is worth looking at an application like say, JEdit, under Java 1.5 before commenting.
Re:There allways has to be balance in everything (Score:2)
Yes, and what has happened with Ruby on Rails? Actually, very little so far. A lot of hype and noise.
The dearth of JAVA ... (Score:2)
Java never turned out the way people said it would. It was supposed to be a cross platform web centric UI technology. As it turned out it did that job terribly. Now the entire purpose for Java seems to have been eliminated. Namely, there are really just two platforms left that have a real future, Windows and Linux.
The advantage that Oracle will gain by moving to Java interfaces is slower interfaces.
Both of these companies have similar problems and they are just teaming up to keep Microsoft from biting t
I want function destructors (Score:2)
Personally, i'd like to be able to specify a code block at the end of the function that will execute after a return statement. That way you only have to write cleanup code once.
Re:Why another alternative for .NET (Score:2)