157-10014-10121 | 2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992

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AGENCY FILENUMBER: = 07-M-27
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ORIGINATOR:  SSCIA
FROM:
TO:
TITLE :
DATE: 03/09/1976
PAGES: 147
SUBJECTS :
SSCSGO, METHODOLOGY
COMMITTEE BUSINESS
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CLASSIFICATION: — Declassified
RESTRICTIONS : 1B; 1€
CURRENT STATUS: —Redact
DATE OF LASTREVIEW: — 03/22/2000
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v9]

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HY 450955 Dacld: 327425509

SSCIA
157-10014-10121

MISCELLANEOUS RECORDS OF THE CHURCH COMMITTTEE

Page 1


; Date
| ! Page

08/07/95
1 .

JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM
IDENTIFICATION FORM |
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AGENCY : SSCIA ‘

RECORD NUMBER : 157-10014-10121 :
RECORDS SERIES : MISCELLANEOUS RECORDS OF THE CHURCH COMMITTTEE

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : O07-M-27 .

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR ;: SSCIA !
FROM : '
TO : |
TITLE :
DATE : 03/09/76 : .
PAGES : 147
SUBJECTS : SSCSGO, METHODOLOGY

COMMITTEE BUSINESS

TRANSCRIPT . ;

DOCUMENT TYPE
CLASSIFICATION TOP SECRET
RESTRICTIONS REFERRED

CURRENT STATUS

DATE OF LAST REVIEW
OPENING CRITERIA
COMMENTS

POSTPONED IN FULL
01/05/99

CCBOX 324

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HY 450955 Docld: 324235509 Page 2

NATIONAL
‘Unauthorized Disclosure: Su
. to Criminal Sanctions:

was

Oo Report of Proceedings

_... , Senate: SElect: Committee to- Study: Governmental. —

Operations:

-410-FIRST STREET; 8..E
WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003,

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Pa

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The Committee met, purawank te notice, at 10-39 o' Glock
pane. in room #407, the Canitol, Senator Walter D. Insddleston,
(Chad rman of the Subcommittee) presiding. |

Present: Senatore Iwialeston. rresiding. Hart of

Colorado, and Mathias.

; i.
Also rresents Willian Miller, Staff Director: Joseph

| otan Orloff. William Rader lynn Davis. AL Quanheck, Charles

Johnaton

Adicenova. Charles Kirbow. ELUict Maxwell, Elizaheth Culbreth,

Lomkhard. Riek Inderfurth. Pech Kelley. Gren|Treverton. .Jim

cand Brith Snider. "rofessional Staff Members.

Terni ecraer INVESTIGATION

Foreign & ifilitary Subcommittee Meeting
: 4
|

Tuesday, “ereh

United States Senate,

we op

| Gnerations with Pespect to.

Intellicence Activities.

| Washington, B.C.

5

4

|

t
‘ :

t

t
:

i

dOP SECRET

Se) ott Committee te Study Gevernmental

4°

16

Oe

HW 50955 Doold:32493509- Page 5

:
i
:
i
i
ut
1

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if
i

\ ; ; — a, :
if you will substantive arrreval of the maper on the production

: : : i - ‘ .
of intelligence so that it micaht go to the Agency and we could

Pdruk o- .

pepere pin tgmu as
| ;

Senator Huddleste. fet is come to order.
i 7 .

Mr. Aaron. the adaenda today is to proceed with the DCI
. . 1 : ; :

. . oe _ /
section and in addition we wonld Like to vet the Subcommittee 's

|
!

an through the process of clearing its details.
T don't know which oo those .you wish ‘to tske un first
7

Me. Kirhow. We should renlly take up the papar first

j
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oe t . . . |
hecause it already went cut Chis morning. z

I EB

Mr, Aaron. Well. thes are renting it but we lave rot
i
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nedokiated with them vet.

Senator Iluddleston. Anvoccomment on that paner?
; . - ; ;

Me. Miller, Which parar? |
. . 4

Senator Huddleston. the Inroduction of ‘intelliadence.

Mr. Aaron: It is in the ‘laraer. hook.

1

Mr. Kirhow. SGanater, T Have some comments but T

!
‘defer to thea Senators if they have sone comments first
iir. Aaron, FTtie ak Tat TET. Cn.
‘Senator Huddleston. Charley, am ahead.

Mr. Kirhow. Thank uc.

+e

The sancern thak hon teen ayprosaed by the sgericr

v

ettpacced fran PR herengs met oot nacke of Phe oeateond by

,

this Caedo bos hut oan aomabtter of record fer

OR SECRET

wee al pie
1 ve
1

pot Andes bas

ee renareme

koe.

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HW 50955 \ DocId:32423509 Page 6

hevchnes! that the hid 9 fidht in
the llouse last vear was to avoid the excruciating details on

thea Senators. I'm sure t

; \
bhudqet fidqures and I thin’) so had kind of dai scussed pechaps

roblishingd 3 or 4 major Feoborce

|
1
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: aa | 24 re
this particular document, grey oreat detail as that portson’of ©

CIN, the ONT which produc: + Inte LLiaence, we speak of an

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‘authorized project to $79.9 million with 2.269 employees, exact
. t . .

1‘

personnel, That ene nace nf thi ..
: ; | |
classified single compilation. |

Senator Wuddleston. what’ page is that?

onde.

Mr. Kirhbow. Pade 2. fo a *

Senator Hrddjeston. Ff cavrse it's out of the Agency.

TL would assume they would have some commant on it.
. . . |

Mr. Aaron. the wotoeb-wasinot, the vier was not to

oo, ;
nroduce these precise numbers but A, to have them for the
: |
Subcommittees se that they could tinderstand them and much as
. . . . 1 ’ .

in the case of.tha MCL's original paner to exnect that these

“things will he medifted and to Lay the Kasis for an syeropriate
, .
a1

discussion with them as fo tow micht wodify it and yet

cantuce the essence of tre srenviant, and we'll insk sea how
7 |

Far that aces in trvint te reach a=

Cevtainivy we lacs oes ieteankion of +

,
Hons ber Tap Db ee bers rors a wey omy : this Nerertrenk
\
7 . . .
. oo oo . . - ae waa : feos £
reppemankea a eubebaet i hos oc endbeore eikh a larde number o
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- One ET
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giae’ SECRE
R nto un:
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E'd Like to point out that ir

document is nrrohablv the most

ercantante of the Agency's “adaek and the excet rercentage of i

é€

1
ees |
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4
al I
if | ‘
: amployees?
. : . i : one
S Mr. Kirbow. Wel! if ' could tell vou what my position

on it is, in speaking. te Beth ninom£ield last night I specificall

asked her -- wall, she savs thatits to give them something out

Le . —o: ee cones ae -

f | there to take out so that well have snouh left jn here that
aA wonld he a worthwhile doerment at the end.

7 | and 1 think that if Wa nee kidding ourselves ‘that we
8 | have either rhe time or -~ und ute should not have the inclinati
9 - in mv .aniptlon to vaste kha “ime oF the people at the Agency

t
s which will aive Mr. Boldin

|

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lcor anything hy. 'outtine in thing
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| something bo qnaw on so he etal 't! hother the rest of the tlping,"

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ye d To anst didn! t think that we vere aoinyd te det into that kind
i

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nf dealing with the Ragen neanie T thought. we vere going to

he forthriaht in what wa Hhonchel we should nut in and what we

wauld put in a document Like this because the whole production

of intellicence thing ar bhe hole theme of the paper is we

TA |
i
iy ll this inadequate attention qiven ko the analytical Portion of H
: |
ve i preduation. :
ao! And if we area doing this and sending it out there in
ey ; .

this classified form full voll knowing at the outset -- she
ey Sava. well, thak's not oven matertal. Tf they want to take it:
co Tout, just fake it ont. -

en Well), Pf it’s nek materdot, T would: hope that ve re not

/ ast menth.

a ; : oe .
| waetiia both aur i dmesa p.m: read phout 19,907 werde dn tha
| ; ” an
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| OO ; - Foo &

BW 50955 Docld:32423503 Page 7 |


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: Par a ahy yo
7 Bee ERB :
i 7
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rou Senator Huddleste:. “f think it's probably material to
| mo, i.
. 1
2 also to have a firmer gress shen! we start discussing and de fendi c
ae 1 .
x the report nayhe ; even to tha extent of having specific figures.|
{ 7
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ani I think it's highly un Likely that they will let that stay]
"t { : t .
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if . ~ . . _ {
; | in there and we'll srohably have to modify it. I see your point |
~ jin a way that we might save curselves time by scaling it down |
| Oo i .
.. | te beain with to what we think ‘tid be acceptable, but on ve |
a | other hand. we may not quas: riaht. |
er { : |
5! Mr. ¥irbow. Well. For che record then, Senator. I do
> {, e- : i . - . . {
-_ - 7 7
i have excention to this tyne vriting where we deliberately beef
an , .
4 it un with known classified infomation fall well Knowing hat
a . . |
Lo . _ i
be dtis going tn be taken out and not get to the point that we . |
aan ; . | “
1° are trying to make. Bit Loven! t! dwell on itvany further.
a ‘ . | a : :
; anator Huddleston. “Tea vpn have any commerk cn: that
. J . . 7 .
| fo . i
aspect, Senator Hart?’ r |
Le ae ; ;
7 ae |
t Senator Hart. o Ne. ;
Ve ee oo ;
| Senator Huddleston. ALT right, that one's readv to go. |
i Mr. Aaron. Thank vou, |
La. ; . i 2
he : .
| Now we left of F vesherdavion rage 25. We had discussed |
EO
Aah . .
| tye oral pronesals by way oF vecanmendations. The firet was |
2 | : .
ae E| . | . .
. ' . . H
|| cor set a tone for the ocr “hich VAS rejected and the second |
at . i?
was to confirm the new community-wide deputy for the. [cI to |
i have him subject to Gansta nentibmation te establish him as,
. . ‘ . . . {
droaffect. the Firat depnty of bhe Der, hhe man whe
fh ain hie ota. I | i
’ nN at
te SECRET
HW.50955 Docld:32423509 Page 8 i

‘and we aqreed that we would’ make some change in the language

‘relating to what in effect is thr re-establishment of the board

tn P k ; hae BAL te

i oT
i
uy

- oe |
i We aiso discussed ortafly the recommendatian nunber 16
i : "

ey

1 of. national estimates to mata clear that they weren't there just

8 ll for the purnose of endorsing ostimates but ‘£rom the standpoint

if
! .
S [that they are there for the nurnose of reviewing them.
¢ So the next recommendation is recommendation 17, and it

* 1 4s long and complicated. Earentlally what the recommendation

° || anes is spell out more erecisely what the nCr! S reaponsibilitied

JO | will be for the overall} a Llovation of resources and coordinatio

a of the community! 9 aetivities anart fram the ‘production. OF

Finished intelligence. which is ‘the pucpore of recommenda téion

Ls 16 .

\ - . ; vo a
14 4 New what it does, the first paragraph summarizes the
is | esaontial responsibilities alena the. lines of the President's
16 | Bxecutive Order.

| :
ean

ind) in the following sense. ‘The Feecutive Order establishes an

Now it is slightiv different from the Executive Order. . |
‘jaf use Committees. gives the Cemalttoe the resnonsibility of |
i

ej | preparing a national intelligence budget, makes the PCI the
Chairman of that Committes. and vives the MCT in his nerson, |

ee | df vou will, the - yeaponad hd tity for neasentina that budget. to tHe

eur sa mm mfoeath Prsarth that seameawhak comoticaked and

n| President
tl
| . .
7 not entiratly clear allocetion of oe to the pet by simply
;

Sea Va a UL:

“MW50955 DocTd:329493509 Page 9

caving he is responsible fer wrenaring tha commun tty 's huddet,
| - _ 7
| and he has this Committer for this purpose in trying to place
& | responsibility squarely on him to do that. |

At Now this would not mean, however, that the Secratary of

. || Defense he senior to him in the cabinet. Tt mean the National

Security Council could not make a,reclama and could net go over

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‘his head, : |
That situation will <Lilicexist and this Committee is-

in fact a committee of the ‘ational Security Council. so there

beavond the level of the Cowntttee on Foreign Intelliqence ¥

3

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joj) de another Laver at which intar-agency disnutes, if they continue
eve they could be resolver.

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for preparing the budget and rrovidina ‘quidance for overations
prearams in aeneral terms and mits him in'as chairman .of the

anoropriate NSC committees. and then we reference the CFI and

L
t
pa fl Now the first -- Lt also desianates “him as resronsible
{
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then authorize the following snecifie responsibilities.

|
| ; ‘First of all, the estah lishment of national intelligence

,o | reendrements . for the entire community and it emnoavars him to

290 | araw uncon representatives of tha members of the intelligence

61 community to help him in the task of establishing these recuirenen

cel Now this igs an incroare in his authority from his.
. oe Tourrant naatore. fle has caw the suthoritv to issue aoidance
sa lip tha nrenayabieon af eaasiremante bub he oan'h raplie say do
as I iste ayo da bah, Phoee ave bya things we wank, !
\! Lo j
hi ;

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HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 10

to - Now as a practice! ~wabker, To think it's fair tm sav that.
“ ||he anes nrettv far in aqetlind his way at the present time, but

on some of these requirements on a national basis, this would

ene net tare cores sneer

z | aive him the clear authority to ask them to do things.
q | Now his reavirenents. tha Level of detail and so forth,
ff wold obviously be somath tne that would have to be neqotiated
° | out in the course of his worl, . —— |
2 | Now that is the rennvandation of the first parsgraph
; ; , |
:

Df amt naradreach A.

io . Tmicht dust sav it also aives the DCI in connection wit
LL | the requirements vrocass. it refers here to'the fact that he
ya lo omav determine the success of various agencies in Fulfilling and.

valle tact what the caradrech scka up is a system whereby the

NCL can establish requirements and then through the budget

cpyocess and in the norocans of avaluating requirements make

“ye |p te the hudsets or take avav in cartain areas and so forth.

ae |i Thig wroavides sone of the real svstam as anposed to a

a) paner svstem which he tins het in the mark,

{
Some estimate of how well the community is doing and either “
. '
any Varaaraph B dencyibes the nrenaration cf the national

e

a1 | intelligence bhudaat and nointe-ont that be should prepare this”
I hudmet,-Abesent it ta the Nresidank and to the Conqress who |
oo | would male moma references bere ta tha lancduage in the President's

Mreenphtyn Ordag te hte seed.

bea tha fe ths eaint that the definition oF the |

ate? SECRET

oases A RU

HW 50955 Docld: 32423509 Page 11

ny

ipl

ms)

|} consultation with the Execrtive Branch,

;qdence, between departmental and. national intelligence.

foo SRO pRL :

atements to he included sb ehin a national inkelliaance budeet --
iin other words , what parts af the community would fit into that.

where you draw the line hatiaan: technical and national intelli-

This definition world be established bv the Congress in

L
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tt further points our that he should be involved early in

the procees of vrenarine buloaks s in’ the hudatt cvele and then

|
ji tt makes gomehortatory kind of statements about how he should |

trv to consider. trade-offe hokvaan proarans and hetween ‘collect

ho ae

and nroduction and so forth.

ee

n ,

another word hesides trade-nf©. While it is common for us to
wae it un here in committee vark. T don't think it conveys the

hest connotation to the nublirc.

ib
Senator Huddleston. T youla sudgest there that we =
|
‘
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What we're saving is that he balances out er arportions |
resources, whatever: |
Mr. Aaron, Now t think the final cantence is this |
imrortant one. and the Senators should note this. the proposal
and verhans this oudht #9 he made somewhat more. clear than it.

is now as te whe will do this, but the authority -- I'm sorry,

it is clear. But the sutheritv of the NCk to renrotram funds

hae

Thea President. bis @reaibtee §eder aqives oko the Cumnstthea on

i
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stthin the intellicencs hedect should he Limited by ehacute. .
|

Paretion Tetellinence ask oat bhe autrority to mresates the

fOr REC CRET

7 PAU

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3

Poy

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# oo vo TAK wl

national intelligence bileeb bah to renrseram moneys within
that buddqet.
“Now our estimate #4 thak that budaet would be on the

order of $3, 4, verhaps um te 25 billton, depending on what is

that Committee what the pernone of that narticular provision
was; and I asked him sreniftically did this mean that vou would

he able to, as in the ease of Anaola. repreavam money away

“fram some, other part of the budaat, NSA, 1RO, some other major

included in it, and I asked the Yhite House, the NSC member of
I
proaram, and put it inte the sovert military, rmara-military

action program? : a ?

And hea said ves, that is the reagen that he is qiven

(a gort of broad authoritv to reproqram money.

Senator Huddleston. “Hell, they were doing some of that.
yereantt they? |

Mr. Aaron. To some: extent I believe that's true, but
Tt nersonal ly don't know what that ‘extent was « |

Now to the extent ve uilll see later that we place some

or make some recommendations conaearnina limitations on the

authority to draw upon different funds and to -revlanish certain

funds for the nurcoseas of envark action. this sauares. with that |

. uo . : ° i

nronosal hy saving that there should he hv statute certain fo
Lieltations on the reerosransing of funds. - ;
Metre nak cavdnd one Phevarm ouch k tp he there vaally. °

thinkire thar tha mycrctaht comb” bee verrld ho ve boonak out.

FOP ARC CREE

res MU ke oo : ;
. a |

iH ' On: nS

i

:
i Now .the next paransaph, ose
S | Mr. Kirbow. Coul? sa take these one at a time because
| these are rather critical?

. 1

1 | Mr. Chairman, one of the Fhings that came before this f
iB | committee when I quess it was Tx. Colby testifying and at each
§ | menting that Mr. Miller ard the staff had with the people from |
7 i the White House and the CIN when ve vere nreparing the oversight
aa |mat.. we heard many qacd reasons why we show'd net. denrive the |
6 | nen of this ability to sian certifying out of certain Funds |
1 and being able to exnand them without a qreat big red tape . |
1. |] machine to hinder that tyne of oneration. ?
ba If, as Navid. savs, his recommendation here is to prevent
LR | rerrogramming. lexcant v wi ithin very narrowly defined statutory
ia | Uintts. is a first step toward restricting that further |

os

ractivitv. Tt would Like Bo. axcent on this and have it discussed ,

before the Full Committee, ox in the absence of that, or

that we should restrict hy leqielation here -~

Senator Huddleston. chat is the major thrust there?”

connected with it, have the record that-.we have that- shows us .|
|
(.
/Is if to in fact limit or restrict or is it to actually have 1

it defined and snecified-in the statute as to what circumstances

might prevail?

My. Aaron, The throat here is as |fallows. The UCT

Can now ranrodram manag tbthin bis oun agency tn some extent.
7 So i
ithat Dardersts., denendins ae Ma parts: he can repreqram., Tt don't |

jor BECRET

i : o os a Coo PEL

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halieve he’can reprograiry th within about $750 million of his

own appropriation.

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Senator Huddleston. Raccantt take something out of tne |
NSA now and pit it over? | !
Mr. Aaron. “No, wecan't do that. But in his new |
responsibilities as DCI fer nrenarina the budget of the entire

national intelligence program. he will now be in a position to

‘reorodram the entire hivdaek and therefore. it's a much larger

wind of Flexibility.

aimed, this particular ohe -- later one we do have one which
dees place some constraints and the purnose is.te make it clear:
there the monev comes frem and where it's qoing to ao to

Now the thrust of this verticvlar croposal is not really | -
make it clear to the Caonaress ak least. But this particular

one simply savs that because this is a much wider reprogramming
flexibility, that it euaht te be subject to certain kinds of |

definitions and consider the limitations so that the Congress

knows what is hannening to the’ moneve that it appropriates for

-particular nurposes.

Senator Nuddleston. Well, for this particular paragraph |
then, . would define or seacify, suffice the voerd limited, |

er not?
Mr. Aaron, th should be dafined, That's correct.
J Me Bren: Tocte wie Ry medaye oh, Mr. Chaivran. that

that de os davarture from the stantarcd renrogramming nracess tha

TOP SECRET

Cun @ PAtEE |

HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page i5

co ee 2 ee |

' [hoe been adopted in the Chanabe guar the last ‘10 er 15 vears, |
8 | for instance, with the Cepmibten on Armed Services. ;
4 - 8 Lo ,

a _ Senator Huddleston. Far other departments?
A Me Kirbow. Where thera is an authorizing and an |

i 4

E | anporonriations type acticn in the Condress, as Senator Hart

BT dt know from his experience on that committee, if they wish |

x}

‘ . os oh a Mo pees .
tea revroqram missile money ovar to aireraft, for instance, 1

© has to be annroved by alli fonr of thease committecs, both

: : a,
Qa Arns Services and hoth anprenrintions committees: with the

nt ee ma . —.

‘VO |-exact transfer of the amounts of money and the justifications

MW civen therefore. ; | , ; f

My concern is nok that the Consrass should not have a

“bo

1
t

Ve aentrol of this er that vou ceuld make it so riaid by making

4) recemmendations that laave the oversiahkt committe: and the
; |

aporopriations committees no’ flexibility to do this. And © woul

16 4 think that unless we have a vary qood record on this, we should |
|
b

iv | recommend that this should be a matter that the oversight

12.4 committee in its new rele gives cood consideration to.

Mr. Miller. Tha ‘oversicht committees and the appropriatilor

committees would have flenibility. Every appropriations act is

|
a statute. afer all. oO _ oo oo oe f

martainiy would unless you restrict

n

them by statute.

. . ‘

Seyckoe Tr diester) aks are endgeagstine 3 aratute:

which, the neu avergiaty ved kRea that hass pacced,

i
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‘ne oMr. Kirhow. Thee.
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:
|
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iO” SECRET

Try he re

“HW 50955 Docld: 32423509 .Page 16

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| to have thar kind of protection.

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eft

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BRR sed AES 14

ing far would have legistativyve .aythority aver. Soa wetra really

dust recommending here bhat in this statute they provide the

framework under which these kinds of repreq.amming can be

own little hailiwick to the entire intelligence community,

done in view of the fact that wea are extending the DCI from his |

Mr. Kirbow, If that's the intent of the committee, I
have no reservations about it.

Senator Huddleston | AL odan't think the military people.

would obiget to that kind jot lanquage, Thev'd like to have

some definite frameworr for aA man to reach into his budget.

“Mr. Kirhow, I think alt. the various agencies would? like

3
Sanator Hidleston. Mea.
|

Mr. Mavis. Numhar oc, the RCI shonld. have responsibility

to review all intelligence activities and intelligence resource

-allocations, including tactical military intelligence in order

to carry out his more qenarel resnonsibilities.

Wa've used the vord “yaufer" vary carefully here. This

is not a resnonsibilitv to direach those onerations but simply

to he able to look at the whole in order to sert of balance it

We're not saving thit he's taking over resnonsibility.

from the military commanders. ITF vow read the Fuecuti:re Order

the Llonqeaca $a dt ffercnh ead th save thak the Crt pt the

Poof wilh not bave vreanoasibitity for tactical miditers

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intelligence. But then th uses the werd avidance. — That is that
the DCT will provide guidance on the relationship between the
two and that is ambiguous to ng and so we wanted to make sure
that the Dex would. be abla ko Lock at the whole but not have

responsibility for directing the tactical military intelligence

nroqrans.

Mr. diGenova. The cricdinal drafting of that Section Cc,

e

jt think it's actuallv clearer than the way it:'s drafted now.

The oriqgival draft says, rhtle the DCT shall. not have responsibil

For directina tactical militares onerations. the ner shall have
responsibility: to reviaw alt intelligence activities, et gptera.
‘T think the original aie ig better hecause it makeay it
clearer what vou are trying to say.
Mr. Kirbow. Lf you're coing to use that for Senate.

vou have to sav tactical military intelligence onerations.

Mr. diGenova. Yes. There’s a word missing from the

avricinal formulation.
Mr. Davia. The reason it was taken out is because it

yas a necative and there wpe the thouvht that this is saying what

ha does do and leaving what be doesn't do nok to be snid. Itts

un to the Committee how vou mank to me ; ; |

Mr. AiGernova. Pert con doen't want to do the same thing
the Presifent did and leore the thing ambianons.
Me, oNavbal To have ue evehbtem acldng that firet statement.

Senator Uniddlarten- fF vas want te be nasitive -you can}

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hecause he's qoing to try to. look at the whole.

:

sav while the resnonsibiith.s for firectine tactical military:

onerations resides with wioeavcr it is. the DCI still shall have

the review. |

Mr. Mavis. Well, zaview is, I think, the right word

“Senator Huddleston. t think \Toe makes a point there
because that could lead to sore misinternretation.

Mr. navis, Section 1 arses on ta ask he litrector of
cantral Tukalliqence to antahlish a staf to sunport him in-
thesa resnonsibilities ama ae) arow a stAFF as widely and from

the best talent that he can. ; ; -

; : . | . : ‘ : 5
Senator Hart, Is Ehie another staff or is this thet

ataff that ie in heind?
Mr. Pavis. This is the staff in being. ie has always.
had neonle to help him in: this role.

- oi . ° . . -
Senator Hart. Why do we have to authorize him to do

semethina he's already doing?

Mr. Mavis. We. don't want him net to do that. [ mean
wa want him to have a gsnrectal staff to carry out- theses -

resvonsibilitias.

time welve referred toa him haying the shaff.
Senator Mathine Why don'th vou sav maintain inctead of

aed

Ganaker Wart, Uo Lf be doesn’b wank Ehe skater

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mms PAWL

HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page i9

Sanator Nuddleston, his.is ahout the secend or third —

|

ee a Lee V

Po, Mr. Davis. Hela authorised. He doasn't have tn,

“9 | - Mr. Kirbow. Hats authariszad to have a staff under the
| President's executive order er in anv other normal course of
|

> = asa cniamenmaemmemrmmed pees

4 | husiness.
| | ms sneer to be adem tne down-be low the kind of-
| ventucony authority position that. you have and telling them how
7 structure all of the oraanizations. underneath,
ia] what's ny owlection “oso thak particular asrect of the
. — thane ar side with Senator Hart. He has the |
_ — to ns business and. Tt don'teé think anyone in their |
V4 | wildest imadination wold think that the Congressional redora ;
[2 ould askab}ish that hes sunrosed to d it
iF | |
1% ! Taye haimsed Ff. |
ra Senator Hart. You book re words wight. oe _ ny novth.
«| Myr, Kirhow. And Toence nore say this is ov . bn
16 | recomendations. that ve recommend be taken out.
_ x | |
Senator Hart. thats wat
| mee Kixhow. The ebkatf had had. discussions at the staff
| | reve where several reconmentatinns that thinas like this be |
20 taken ovt for that very reason he considered. and T.think it | |
5, | is inadvertent that they weet baste tn “he eatvare,
“ "Senator linddlestor. ven have no strona feeling about that?
. a Let's omit that paracrenh. ) 7

|

ost ganpeattion. and T hate te da this.

Pak i'd Vike to badkoue boosegea Dev te sadided richkh bye this

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woes ak

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TN A

“ a a ;
ie i 18
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if 6 : . Lo. :
' | sade (24, recommendation [5 fhe Director also would he empowere
>| establish a hoard of senior advisors.
Sif Now who is that? Whe le that board? |
A . Mr. Davis. This woulict ha something similar to the board
j a , ,
5 | OF national estimates.
A | Senator Hart. Is h2 emnnvered to do that now?
an ‘Myr. Aaron. He is not ompowered to do that now hecause it
iL : . - ;
i
2 iwas abolished on him.
a4 Mr, Davis. Rut he cotld do ait. |
Oy Mr. Aaron. I don't think that’s correct.
| .
|| Mr. Maxwell. Ha abolished it. Tk was not abolishd on |.
i . : : . ; .
io dp him. a ce ft
13} Senator Hart. Contd "Is. Rush reconstitute it if he
L4 i wants? [o
i ; |
Lah Mr. Rader. Senstor, this is in’ a vay a call to the |
te6 || MCT. It is based, I think. on veally extensive ‘testimony we |
it , .
wy |i have taken here about the abd Diy of the board of national
;
yo t estimates. a
19 | Senator Huddleston. Tk may he more a recommendation thar
oo | an authorization, |
a I Me. Mavia, Ab Fhe sama time we didn't want to tell him :
P| .
=| he had te because it-is rere or lass un to him becanse if he —. |
OF Aeagy’t wenk to run bic chan that way - - ;
| , ,
al i Senaker Taek | cle ve thaaa neonte? a
i) . |
an | Mey Nawis. Un oh cs osk they have heen formar senior |
yop Ry ge
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DocId: 32423509 Page 21

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End Uy ob ap

Hy 0955 Doclda:32423509 Page 22

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feoask that ve knew of?

| aT ae, | : 19 i

officials and academics ~ho ran tel serve to raview the estimates
_and comment on them for tte director.

| Senator Hart. ne thay perform any function? Have they
in the past?» | |

Mr. Miller. Oh, yrs. Llewelyn Thompsen, for example.

there are senior diplomats. cantor military men from the outside
people of distinction, peanle who have seen a lot and have
something bo contribute. |

‘Seyator Hart. Have they had something to contribute?

Mr. Aaron, There ara tuo functions they can perform.

I More or less. they can bring their wisdom to hear on the product.

Senator Hart. y want ta know whet they have done in
the past. | |

Mr. Miller. Soviet matters. Llewelyn Thonpsen's roles,
for example.

Mr. Aaron. And the second thing they have ‘done was to

orovide some senior sumporkh fer the ACT and the judqerents he

Now the extent hap) ulich that suppeark has bean “ranslated
inta horesnover ig umelear, cucenk it was anEEieiently strong th t
it was of coheern toi rhe. pesetous administration anc was one of
rhe reakone that the bears “eond othors was disvestabhitched.

~Senshor fest. Hace fRoy rreyented any prehters in the

Sere IE

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HW 50955 Docld:32423509

& ~ PK OS 8
Mr. Inderfurth. 7 think that's in relation to helping -
“bo insulate the NCI from vressures to modify him, In the:
past, the board of national estimates insv lated the DCI

from pressures.

~Senator Iart. Chile.

ncr comes in and says we don't really want to do that but the

President made us, does. he br

President and say, Llevwely:

Mr, Lombard. I think

isa that the office of

AAministration and
Wag

tn which Foreian volley.

Tarypaps ag a Matter of fack

formalistic and the board of

scemewhat too long-ranca
aeared to what the President

dav needs on estimates.

Now T don't know

but it seems as though theese

to individual presidents.

So really. bedinnirg

vou. had the decline of the o

it ono loncer seemed to Fit t

Mri Aayep Fin opehos

ey ne

FOr 43

of tha histerw of bho

we

Page 23 —

estimates”

ibfs

‘and somewhat other world ard

wheres

Pare wal

Ancola, all these cases. where the

ing in the senior advisor to the

thompson doesn'* want us to, .eithe

|
;

Jurind ‘that administsation.

park of the problem here. Senator,

wag created under the Eisenhowe

fitted VRE well. into the formalistic ca

evolved

heen criticized as being overly

estimates was viewed as being

rot

nerceived as.being his dav to

Bed

a the equities lie in this thing, -

insitutions bave changed according,

with the

Rica of national estimates because

Fabric.

hin

the tie« really a fa

(Portaps. you could tell us since

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Wy Rm PAUL

Kennedy administration, |
|
’
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|

: ‘ a of ec. Caer
i
i te,
{von were associated with ft Mall.
i. ; . : : .
2 | Mr. Kirbow. I want to talk about the testimony that
BK | was given before the committae on this from two of the former
4 1 PCLs. Mr. Colby, at both the breakfast briefings he qave and
© | in testimonv. favored the use of individtal intelligence offices
{ oo on

:

6 || around in these various acancies, originating estimates and

+ levervthing else: whereas Nr. llelms,. when he testified here,
savs I really don't know ho: that system is -rorking rictht now.”

I didn't favor it when Mr. Coalhy astablished it, and 1 had the

So T think here again vou are talking about a man 'g a

\
{
LO — system and it worked well for ma.

the individual as to how he wants to run the intelligence

community and what apparentiv suited Mr. Helms fine didn't

a

“suit Mr. Colby and he used a different svstem which he says

works qreat. And I say that that is, again, a step down thing.

6
1? Unless vou want to encourage him to do it ina recommendation
| and not mandate that he do it, it kind of makes him run his
- /
|

|
staffing requirements ag thay suit the narticuler times ang
|
| pusinese the wavy you want it tun and bo ne apnarent ahuse |
problems .or anything like that. |
Sanator Hart. Well, sv anly thought here is that some |
|

trving to oinnoint resoorsibility, and tharg. area so many boards

‘and committers anc rocks te bide hbehim! thak a DCT has or

ne | future oversicht committes or select committee is gning to be
Z

|

f

Sor anvhody has chak -

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advisory board that sits culta far from the process. fach

bt
(t

a

So again, my intent herr is not’ ts hea know -nothina.
just to keen the structur : ae clean as possible to identify
responsibility. That's | all. And if this is imnortant to do,
let's do it. |

Mr. Bader. The rasncd. Senator, and I can only speak

from personal experience with the board of national estimates _—

' my wart of which the hoara’s sole was very imnortent in, shieldin

L certainly know of at lea¢k cour estinates with which Lt had sin
both the pct and indesd the analyst From the ravages: in two |
cases of the military who felt vary strenely that the |
continuation of .our bases in the Azores was much nore Ampgrtant |
than sav some hard politinal realities about the future of
Por tudese Africa

And. tT could cite ether cases where this kind uF

insulating funetion was enérmously important. ft had a great

deal to do with the experience . the backqround and the very’

presence of some of these board members

mhey also plav a roils as the chairman of the conrdinating

sessions of these national nekimates, “there's not yush an

nivtional intelliacence estimata.. one of these, board members

hecomes the chairman.
Sa they de nisv a very achive rale in the mrenaration.

Mr) Jaron Forteb® Santion that in bhis eonnection vour

con|carn ahouk tae ance ah itd Re ospeolam. whieh to bid: is al

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HW 50955 Docld:32423509' Page 26

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ee oe re ‘3

i
y fair one. ve have teshisrone that Halme! dinnoettian on this |

was very clear. When he sianed the estimate it was his estimate

and it really wasn't the board's estimate.

Mr. Maxvell. Perhans if. might be nseful because I think

it is clear that he is amroweread to do it. Two, if tha

loommittee desires to make clear that as a recommendation, on

the basis of the committee's examination of their record that
. t . .
| an) 7 oo .
this is a desirable thingal?r iether than saving that it would be

f

emnowered, hy statute, because? he Coes have that nower.

Mr. Kirhow. Ts ik the dansire of the Committee- though,

-to chance the current svstem vbich the present. director hg

mnt seen fit to chance vet. which-she Sas full anthority to

Dohangea if he wighss to do en and which the nrevicus OCT

esteblished and develonad isto a vorking mechanisin?

Mr. Miller. The reeords show that the furcticn of

the board had heen. officinl results. Then it seems | toa me we

¢

should so state that it is a desirable structure.

Mr. Sirbew. T lied one difference with Rill. I don't

“

know that it is des trabte to insulate the len from the opinions

of the resvective 1 military ‘apartments if they have a vested
interest in the outenma of the tenisinn being renisred,

Mr. Miller. The beard hae aistinoished members from
the militery.

Mp Bbrhew Mes 1 bark knew hee fh gan he red ke

deoglabte,
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wep &® PUL,

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HW 50955 DoclIa: vaaleano Page 27.

pO. SRE GO — a

My, “Miller. Insitsate tha nolitical nreseere. vhat's

the point. Not the poimt of view of ominion,

Senator Hart. Mr Chairman, I move that this paragraph

atay in. that ve move on.
Senator ituddlesten. vos, t think we discussed that |
thorouchlyv yesterday, asa matter o£ fact. a .
Mr. Aaron. on B, this ia the clause which, in effect,
be . ; . ;
makes clear that there isa fafinite Jimit to the oCr's authorit

. _ } .
and the limit keing the conduct of warfare. at which time’ there

should he a clear system and orocess whereby these activities

ae . _4
of the intelliqence community over which ha has responsibflity.

in some general sense here for ladqet and so forth, that these

; haste activities come under the Secretary of nefenge. It's

|

eimnty recoanizina the Fait that ve really have two problems.

on the one hand. the sonduer at intelligence in what is sre

peacetime and the conduct of satettoemce te in wartime. |
Me. Inderfurth. Pavia. comld we wet some examn les of |

what high tenaien means? | 7
Mr. Kirbow. Vie reeninandad that that come ouk. Everyone ef

hag iaareed on that and Tt othink it waa put back in. It's sonethif

that you can't define. hye Sacreakary of Rafanse mav roe] neve}
' : : a a ; ‘ ;

very high tension hit the oct may not he willing to ctlra "p

his cenktrol at that Hime ane vou wind up wieh a wrest tiag

matoh -

Sevater ark. tert h tebe ares Der sa phx Rat gf ary here nationa?

FP BRS RET

wots 5 PAUL ©

cette TS i ato meee BR a 75 j
; i
}
i
!
poo :
' | emerqency mavbe? . |
a | Mr, Aaron. Well, ¢ think the way wa came on it was ‘to |
‘ simply savy if vou have the nrocess for a time of war, the ;
74 Prasident may exercise it. ana ‘ho may. exercise it if he: feels al
& ij} it's a-erisis.
A The point was just'to have a process and have it understo
7 [what happens.
p | "Mr, disenova. Ts it saed fo have a svstew that is
° | onerating all right tn peaectine and then when vou come to the
1a | eine you really need, vou qive it to someone else to cun? i
Lj --. Mr, Aaron, Wall, the requirements change in time oe
ce doar.
| Mr. Onanheck. The collection would hecome almost
ja | completely onerational. The sites would be dedicated to
19 | enaational nurvoges and thera'd he no purpose to have direction ,
|
‘ya | from the DCI,
| In that ease it would be a supporting military operation.|
o | Similarly. the naw satellite avstems would he used to support
“| Ss :
1a | onaoinag oparations. |
me Nr, diGenova. In other words, you're saving there” vue
ny - varv manv national intelliqence needs. |.
pe | Mr. Ouanheck. Well. ocoromie intelligence would he |
. on ' rala tively nnimportank. Verifisation of arms control agreements
oma eguld nak be’ a matter nF nee
vy | My. ditenova. vores talking about the! use of hardwara.
| MRE OP, oe

HW 50955 DoclId: 32423509 - Page 28


r . " CN ag BEL &® ; oa

q Mr. Quanbeck. Yer.
2 “Mr. Kirbow. There's no difference of opinion between.

« |/the former DCI's -- I don't Fnow Mr. Bush's position -- or the

1 | former Secretaries of Defense. Evaryone concedes that the

| —— .

a [control of intelligence should a0 for Defense's purposes in
« [eine of war, the principal control. |
ra

RB has been the Secretary of trance needs the control he has.

a j had in order to prenare for war and now vou're saving the.
aa | DCT's aoing to do mora bik von don't want to upset the

1) | military commanders. And, this ig a way of saying that we ge
a : H oo 2 :

Le | understand that in wartime jf is aqoins te to back. It is more

yz | symbolic.

14

t
i
|
Mr, Davis. The noint is, too. the argument in the past
a ; .
Mr ..Kirbow. One of the racommendations in the military

{sh | area we'll come to later is on this same enbject with the bulk

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von BAUL, Lo

“| the work I quess on ‘the snbject being done by that group. _ |

1 | Mr. navis. This also hanpens with the clandestine

13! service today. .In war the clandestine service comes svar ene |

yo | military commander in the field, | |

20 . Oe, Aaron. there ara sone arrangements ef this character

aa hecausa of the exnanded authority of the MCr that is oranted |
Xu 4 : : oo. : : © 1

an | hath in the order and our oronosed statute. partion arly in the

a ax | area of recuirements .

med | |

sa | (This important te have kata caveah, Le vouoetl. |

oe ; - “Mow cecommendatian 1: realty suaqests that. the —

HW 50955 DocId:32423509 Page 29

, & Kot, é

| re 7
j committee . Look at carrvine fhe maria process a step further H
2 | ana instead | of “appropeiatin or authorizing the appropriation |
| funds to the different departments for inte? ligence purposes, |
1 | that in fact tney are authorized to the ner who would then - |
i Lyarcal them out, and it domen't come down hard to say that this. ;
Z. | quae +o be done but that, ints is the next logical step in al
» process and it is 4 sometni For the oversight committea' _
2 |nocne.
2 I Noy mumber 19 a |

i Oe a ;
ial Mr. Kirhow. I would Like to excent on. that until such |

time as the whole subject. of the budaat and release of *"¢

{
| Fiacures and ‘evervthins else is considsred. the whole hudgat

i
4
\
a

I |
p= || asnect at the same time,

| Senator Hart. T don't: understand this ex¢aption procedure.

Mr. Kirbow. Senator Tover has asked the Chairman that

«| Hew does that work? Lo
| if there was anvthina that had not heen . in agreement among the

12 staff, that it could ha hroudht hefora. that! it would certainly

19 coma to the subcommittee .

Senator Hark. Mell, the Subcommittee can ‘GO. ahead
and vote on something. can'h they?

Mr. Kirhow. Yes.'

 npkhear aomas hefore the Full

. toe ow
yeearves hie riehha uhenon

Committee. 7 aaa aa ‘hare rand ka he excertions Filed

‘ ca OR PAUL

i.
Genator Hark, a hints every member of the Full’ x

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i geo vee ga et 28
oT .
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{tts all de novo whan if sete un to the Full committer anyway.
Mr. Kirbow. I simniv indicated +o the Chairman earlier
that I didn't Want to have a reservation like that and not

‘ti point it ont to him because T didn't want the absent member

| Senator Huddleston. Ha's putting ws on notice.

9 . Mr, Aaron. OAntton 13, -this option steps wp to the

t i

2

auestion of whethar the Dcr in his new canacity aa the overall

’

i
& i fo appear to be sandbadaging the subcemmittre, | , |

manager of the community. snd by manager ¢ don't maan down in

the nuts and bolts but havind the aeneral Management rasponsibiift

1] | of interpreting the budaak in terms of requirements, in terme _

ie il ef ceneral quidance For the mninacement of soma of these 3
t . . . . .
- : ; oo
12 jj activities. whether that Funetion should be serarated from that

of runnina the CIA as an anenav,

ish Now ve have heard some testimeny about the inconsistency

16 | between those two resvonsibilities, TI think the arguments, if

ja llby the wav, there's a-diffarenca of epinten in the staff as |

19 | to which of these is the righ ene te Fellow. The araument
oo |-din favor of coing ahead nov t > sanarate them is that these |
sy jj are inconsietent. that ang cent have, van remove the ber
vp tl Eyreym a conflict of interes" sLtusation in which he is hath running,

oa jlone of the nrineinat aveneioe vresnonsthle for nok only clandestine

teh end davelonmant prodarens ‘that are

nq Waotivitdes buak fer Ca seat eseumonk of ctiemals intallicenga, the

an Ideavealorirenk ck merkatn vee

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nosition-of having to judin other people's research and
development, procrams and other people's: STGIN’ programs, and
other activities when he is the overall director of Central
Intellicence. and that therefore this senaration, his removal

from that, would be a qond idea.

‘oF crreat interest. to the oom thy, and vou take him out of the

The second argument is that you really want to nlace the

authoritv squarely on the pow director of this acency «ho's
aging to ya resnonsible far clandestine activities. Tf he
still has a hoss above him who is kind of responsible but who

in fact hecause of his increased responsibilities won't bat

that he might, if he didn't have these ¢reater. responsibilities,

ane shotld make the lines cf suthority clear and lace the
resnonsibilitv for the head of. this aqdenev on that aadency

and leave it there.

‘able ta tive the day toa. day attention to clandes tine activities

Now the arqumant acaingk that is that --- well, there are

‘

two kinds of arguments against. One is that the situation now.

2 3

is justified and that thie ts-a acod thing and we don’t need

to make any chanae and thare ara dood reazons te Helieve that.
The sacond arqumenk + tht Follow in the middie ond says,

well, there fa soma incenstatenay potentially. There might

he soma advantades to cemars king then an yall Ag tame cuts,

bth wa have new yok Pnek ibe ted bhig mes sygtem whorel von have,

broader cresronsibiliti Poo the PCr. atts aoe hear 1S works fe

Tor SECRET |

LR PAUL

_ bce cee gg eg. Hs _t

| Oo |
| Lauhite he fore stenpins nee keene cuestion of whethar he can |
= | really adequately perform and waar both hats.

| _ _—
2 | Those are essentially, Eo think, the «ronments. If there, |
4 | are -others that oudht to be offerad in exnlanation of the choice
nl Mr. Bader. Tovonld just under? ine that, ‘it, Chairman,

+ ithe second point that David has made about recommending the

p two hats would stav tocdether.

Lf

{
|
y lleituation to stav. the vav it is todav. That is, that the _ |
IT think some of |

us feal that the period in front of us

tO q will be a perind of axnerimentation and-tasting vhare there ‘are

1] | new resronsibilities that will flow to the per. We'll seq how | bo

Ley they work, welll sea whare his authority takes us, Well hee

oo . oo. |
12! whether he reaallyv- will in fach establish himself 4s the
i4 |) resconsible Airector of; in a NCT sense, and we argued here- ‘that

is | the oversight committee should be attentive to this to sea how

ie || it works out and that if somatime in the Future after we've had

: ve a. chance to see how thease svnanded resnonsibllities work in
1 practice. that will heoa time to see whather the DCT and the
ral Nrector oF CTA fometion sheula he sevuarated.. |
on) oe, Naron, t think hade bo araue the first casaa ietie

an are stronaiv, if To coulda. there area two additional points to oy
oo |i made about it.

se 7 oo oo,
coe i + One ia thet tn Fath hoapipg the second half. wveniing the
a ; ; : ) Ang

agqepayvoufltohe ap himedipient ta kim o-' feehivels: runniow the

on yogeeral] cormmonides 2 -

for SRCRET

. mee ek

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HW 50955,

Led

5

ad

‘ee
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ng

fas being some. inconsistency to he arqued hetween having this

Be ee & 4 a “

So it isn't reallo jurh a cuestion. To would arcue,
af seeing where the currest svstem takes us. It's a matter of
lnoking at what we have Ienarned as a result’o: our inquiry

and saving, in fact. this is amine to be an impediment and it

is my personal opinion and T think supnerted at least hy some

testimony that that would he the case.

The second arqumenk. 7 think, is a somewhat broader one,
and Lquess t'm not. prenay:l to make ite nur we've had an
ineuiry tiptoe the CIA, game of its problems. some of its
accountability problams. some of its manacemant problems, and

as a rasult of this inquiry there is..at least it strikes fre

broad inauiry and ending un otth A much stronaer, larger, and.
nore powerful antral Intelligence Agency tn every respect
with greater authority. ever othor elements of the intelligence
community. _

_Now vou can only carrey that so far but it seems to me
that there isa serious nuaation here as to, and it is seen in

nart by other elements of the intelliyence community who really

sare concerned that hy waariner the two bats, the per will ‘still

‘raally he revresenting the Neeney vis a vis their particular

agencies like NSA and the abhers.

That's the choice |

Mr. didene al liye. Chedeaoan, EF F covld juet ooke for

’

the record that of the wibrets:

Tor SECRET

LO; AA BAU

Sho: tenki fied ‘before: the

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a “ a en. Chee a4

Sommittee. T believe the vocard reflects that Mv. Schlesinger -

was the only former DCI whe cad in favor of separating the.

to testifv who were formar directors favored it, most notably

Aadency, from the Director and all those who were still alive
Mr. MeCone and also Mr. Helms, Mr. HelmS characterizing. the |
|

'directer.as ending up with a disembodied enirit if he were.

devrived of. this analytical yohicle.

So I think as far as the racord aoes. I think the record

.

is aqainsy divesting the director of the Maenev. although there

is certainly evidence from those who felt that he should be..
Mr. Aaron. . Tet me sce if L can clarify that recor@ a

Jittle more. — . , . = 7 . , | i

“First of all, the rroposal is not to divest him from the

analytical and production function, That we clearly provide

for and !that would not’ take place.

“The second point is that I believe the record goes to
the question of sorting out ox saparating the director as he
has to this time existed in the sort of general kind ef oversee
and the kind of jawbone authority that he has had. And the
‘questions that have heen. out to the witnesses generally have |
haan nut in the context, of shat has ys up until recentiv, his

authoritv in that canacityv. and © might sav personally I would

‘
‘

agree with that.

L.think Lf cen earn #e diverce “he director who assentiallly

e
i

only had dawhenn ankhortie fram ar agency. and the specific

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UATE fe OVE :

HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 35°

fF Pk raed HR g

crate ou?

‘oravity that that gave bin. then he wonald he a disembodied

= jsnirit. But we're talkin: about a somewhat different situation

2 now where he has real authority over the budget. |

ay Mr. °Kirbow. Buk also presupposes. “Mr, Chairman, that “yoy

® have decided already that vou're coing to. separate. the vet
.

A | side of the house up there from the clandestine side of the

7 | house and put them into senparnte agencies.

a T don't helisve the vommittee has decidad that. The

2 pshafF mav.have.

Od : Mr. Treverton. ht doesn't necessarily presuppose that.
1 Mr. Kirhow. Tf he's coing to put the analytical sitie
ae aa ; . , 4

12] of the house over there with the DCT :- — |
jj Mr. Treverton. Well, in any situation we would leave’
} : , . _ ; ; : .
ta the DCL with his responsibility for estimates and a staff to

18 | do that.

15 ; I aqrant that the arqument for separating the DCL from —

Lr i) the CIA is stronger.

Le a, Senator Huddleston. walt, he vouldn! t he without author dt

39 lover the Central Intellicenca Aeonev. We recommends the budget
an |

the resources.

Mr. Lombard. t pron tee aE a cauld ask a question,

We hava had previous PULSs who have teatified that you

7 8d | omta wae Nae tha cto ef the Pet from the. adency but
|
{

that wad hamedounan floors cnistation as thay then knev it.

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OR PA

and tasks them. He qived: “hha the rennonsibibity and ‘opportiong|
y

BWO50955 Docld:324273509 Page 36

aah BS fo Ro 88 pee BE Bg . 14
u -

po : : . i
fT . . : ; : |
Mow mv question is this. Assuming that we were to achiev

all of the measures in th> recommandations that we have here

| 7

For the DCI budqet and all the rest, it seems to me that that

44s an awful lot of work withent having to be concerned with the

mn

|
l day to day operations ef the “ra. ; :
I don't know. I jrst raise the question.

Senator Huddleston, 1! think that's a sood point.

Ql Me. Lombard. He Firck of all has to vresent the budget

. : . . . ’
2 | to the President. He has be defend the budast ur on the hill, - |
and that's in at least four committees. And then he's got to
have an analvtical bass, and nresumahblv the national estinfate

‘fFunetion and oon top of that. worrvina abouhk the day to day .

na

ovevations of the Agency.

TI don't know Lf that if mere than one may should be

agkad to do.
- Senator Huddleston. all, when we talk about major
reorganization and re-assinnment of functions, almost, and.

j9 | we're probablv confusing that bv continuing to call the man

ee ne ee te ernment.

lwho is going to supervise all of the intelligence the OCr,

Mr. Bader. Senater, hak ve ara antering into here is

wi

ey, | a vertiod af transition for the Pel whare ha has new ceanonsibili tis

which are not certain at this onint hey they will hea innlemented).

oa

aon

; “mes Park nf aur nrohtem with this dacisien is, as ho hean
H
ca fi gtaked cand meted. oertoon€ bier fest imer: of farmer pote te

ea dadainnk the backerroaund of bis prarank situation. Ue meat of

(o> FOP SECRET

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¢ ‘ mr? ARE Re ‘3
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: jit is not reallv relevavt ta the rmestion of wheat the OCr will
| . a
9 lle doing if, and I under!ina the word if. these new responsiblli
* | ties that are being thrust on him by both tle Executive and
i .
“4 lfibw the Conqress, are in fact inniemented.
i!
| The aratment Iowouwld weko here is that the oversight |

a , , . .
m4 ; Sepator Wuddleston. So that's onktion one.
: _
1p Mr. Mavis. The Pxecntive Order is ‘an attempt to look

 llcommittee should take some tire and consider this, certainly

2 Yaarried out.

ol} tea deputies. and therefore the NCL will have somaone who 4s

alt be a little careful as to what thak maans. T mean the money

in light of how these reforms, if thev are reforms, are

i ilat the problem and toe make ona’ step which says there will Se

manading his onerationa and takes soma of the burden off and

that's why they did it. And in a sense. thev recognized the

,« | which we are accepting,

And when vou sav who prepares the budget. you have to

a! deostill authorized ke the denactmants. ‘They will still have

L
a their own budqetary precass, and how exactly he gets control
a, }ovar that at this noint ts unclear. Netra giving hin Janquage >
\ : :
2 | about how it's aning to hoenen, and T think that's the
eo, | Aranmeant Far watkine = short time fo sae whethar or net he
eid ff : : . . . .
oy | aebuadbly dames ccet combrat..
ey Mr onaren. To abk teak soy thak ve have bacteok at
\ , we
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f (OP SECRE
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+ Ae A A ON NL ne cence ene eee ete sue

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' athis recemmendation as orld one simniv in the eentext of the
OH .
- President's own proposals ani ovn measures that ha has taken but;

an in terms of the measures which we pronosea be Laken in statute.

B

| |

“which of course the oversiahkh committee or whatever responsible |

lecislative committee vill have the newer te Aisnose of these |

nronosels or recommendations, |
Rut in that context it's very clear that we do zive

varv unambiauous authority. very a@trona amtherityv -- Fo think Tiv

noked a fow other points chara va actually strenacthened the, |

thrust of the Emxacutive Order. And sa whan wa look at the

suestion of whether he should or should not. whether we should

sae

po ler shonld not recommend that in the eontext of this kind of
anthority there will alan be davelopment of a statnta that

weld senarate these functions, it hag to be seen aqeingt what

is | we nropose and not what the fresident dust orencsed.
16 : Senator Huddleston. The. fact is that Ff everything
1 | ove have recommended so far should come to.vass and the ncr

io || should have the axnanded ressensihbilitv ond authority. he

rq }wonld he a imare nowerful wan if be was sernarated from the
ovneration of the Aqency., Ha vwortlid be a more powerful man then

than ha is now as runnine the Aceney and being the so-called

er

:
oo | eeerdinatoar, would he nok?
rad ; My. Maydie. Thebia cerrceck. that’s the rurnosge.
. in / .
“4 Senator Mathine. the the tensan. deo ce hava aya boskimony
Yo a ; . pos : on
mi dp Serera blir onereno beats | he ot Bpev vagy bebo owiew this suctskrone
“ { ‘ . ; . , :
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j.vrac discussed, he indicate that this has not created any

oe reaeommendations was to stee tha not more authority. Bbt

and wa don'kt have a recor) for. to tale away or recommend takin

Mr Tembard. be face nema fren Fhe Mtn,

‘Senator Huddlesten. The TR would favor separating the
bua,

Mr. Miller. General Atien has alse said that.

Mr. Rirhow. .Goners) Ahlen at. the meatinea when this

problem for him, that he Aidn'+ fea anv favoritism being

iAdienlaved on the nark ef Mel cmthe and the oooanle he dealt with.

My, Maxweld. of think that's park of the reason why a
number of us had favored omkion nmaber ons. was that a qreat

dee] of the trouble with the Mrastdent's Exeantive order ald

a er cen on

for the neriod af time fn which that has not Kaan serted ovt |
I,

away essentially the troops that tha oct had used. which in

rthe future honefully he would not need if recommendations on

koth sidas enme into heind would he to wanken him at a crucial

t

m2 aS nsonle try to FAIL dn tha vacuim that fe creahed,

Senator Nuddlaston, of thik the cuestion then is whather,

ar nob what wa are recommoandineg actually comes to nase. If it

¢
i

anes come tol pass. then this de oan istue that needs to he:

artdressed.,

Mow the obher cvesiden fe shonid sa

Ain.eitank on it
in thea reserko arc hopht oos (oe onkiom «oe tndicakas hera, leave

feoas Lk de oeurtbilo aneh time ce Gh has heen Aetermined that it

TOP SECRET |

worse VU

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ienuled he advantadeous bo ctrpsrnkm them,

ls that what we're eiving there?

Mr. Aaron. Yes. f-think there are really three options.

nna is to leave the stuff out. and my own personal preference
would be to leave it nut entirely if the committes did not

Fael that, if it didn't went to recommend that. it's kind of
a half-hearted --

Genator Hart. . Has #7 Administration already taken a

latep in this direction with the reorcanisation?

Mr. Aaron. ft has hy charging the new deputy out there

and saving be's going ke have more authority. , §

Senator Wart. How dees one revister disaqreement with
that? VYore for cotion one?

Mr. Aaron, Tf vou thoudhe that was inadeyuate. you.
tiquld vote For number one, |
Senator Hart. FT don't think it's inadequate, 1 think:
it's wrong. J vote for onticn one.

Mr. Indarfurth, Thie also comes ur under nart 5(d).
this. whole Aiscnssion oF notions: separating ont,

Mr, Aaron. Thakie a senarable aunestion, the auastion .
of the skrneture of the neaney LteelF.

Mr. navi. liner Me Bracutive order this new denuty

for the ivtelliaqence comorntts de nhysicativy moving aut of

Lenadey aed capi clacorbeccn Thatts siprssed ta be svmbolic
as well of the gemaret ler -' tha two. reles.

YOR SECRET

Wm PAE

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La SRNR EY ROR rae


ia

brief statement of position?

rea ne ;
q

Senator Huddleston. cvautd we salve ib bv dust having a

narrative statement at the and nf all of these recommendations

|
{
relating to. the DCI to sry that the foredoina, preceding |
recommendations would, t€ carriad out, substantially strengthen
the role of the DCI or thev are intended to do that? |
And this brings up the emestion as to whether or not |
|

in this exnanded role he should also at the same time he

essentially resnonsible for the nperation of cone af ths agencies

‘and that this matter, as his dutiss are exeanded, this matter |

needs to he considered further and a determination made whether

or not it's appropriate that he continue ke hold that $
. .. i

4

bs

; rasnonsihility:

“that's not a recomontation. “tts just a cormentarv on
whak we have done.

Mr, Kirbow, It hiahliahts the nroblem and passes it
to the oversight committee, shich woulda have time to conduct
hearinas on it after ome histery had been established on the

new role,
Senator. Mathias. tnutd. Sanatoer Hart alahorate on his
Senator Hart. tT think tha division ont there Fhat
anvarentiv the President tas varked ort is a had one. and I
for ene weld Like ta qm omen recerd scmeasheres or anoathsr ag

emreipar wh.

Mrop lier. Me yea wean, Tenatoar, that

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weary

ics

“HW 50955 BDocld: 32423509 Page. 42

a lile

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Sena

that w

This

Ms.

Mr.

ms flexecutive 4
i . ,

oF that.

i the

vey some

Sena

same thing.

Mr.

snjutten th

Sena

Mr.

in | responsibilities in other arsas?

Sana

of the

‘Aaron, Seanater. do vou have -- is there another

ge posal gg Bh

tor Wart. otoclen’h think thie bittle’ dotted line

“ imeans a damned thing, frevhly. I've never seen an, organization

ork in my lifa.
is the --
Culbreth. That's enrs.

Kirbow. . At the presank time. Senator, the Fxecutive

Order leaves the NCI as teaad of the CIA with a strong kind of

enuty out thare chat dees the dav to day rurpninag of |

tor Hart. Hat T Like that ecvally less well. Tha

punrbr vas Olay ©

e
+

ato ye haven't econsidaread?’

tor Hart. Yes. 0 Loave it the way it is nov.

Aaron... Make Him ron ik but aive him other

tor Hart. Well, Uodon't want #9 name -any names but.

sore of nameless, Foeelass neante that have been

49} ounk there running operations in affect with some vadve cesnon-

en ft sibilitv to

ne l thaga other.

Sana

ll
ul .

oe ii and he dasa
ie

mad Compa bor.

HW 50955 Docld: 32493509

thet iar

Page 45

report rmarced.

tar Muddleston. Well, wa dav that in practice when

arse thie additianal anthority over bbe kotal

eer bt bores ped fboerrih bo ba veetewad ‘ha
er pee Bhat eebd}ttonal authority stitt ought Ec

qi) P ARC PR Fe Ls

Trem mE,

Gf indeed theis other recammendatians an inta effec

ee ee een ep a pe

7 . Pa ae ahy oo & ;

i - 4

‘ Hes oneratina head. - oo
no You know, that cer be a dissipation of his acenuntabilitvy:

i

i

i : | . : . |
have aman that is so ievolved in so many other things

4 i that some nameless nerson is under him calling the shets., But
5, far we were to move him away frem that! then that nameless persoa
i

4 becomes the man that. we rs looking to as far as the operation

y || of the CIA is concerned.

mop Mr. Kirbow., At that hime boo vourldan'h you exnect that.

o of thak carsen would he named as the Director of tha CIR. would

ha’ nominated bv the President and confirmed by tha Senate?.
| - My, Miller. What's vrond with having the DCI in charge

rm | ot the community as Lona as. the depot: is under his direct

is | conirole

:
I ‘ . . : : a . :

v4 ht iGenator Huddleston. Well. you hava the community of the
.

_ | HEA. You don’t call the diresekor ouk there the director of the

WOE. | a
[We should be consiskenk,.

Mr. Taran. Ootion 2.-- we'd have a clear deputy, wa'd

lnow who he was. He'd be eenfirmed hy the Senate..He'’d Be a>
| . . . . -

man ofletature and ha wouldn't ha anyooly's deputy. Ua would

aol |
oe, | ba. rasoonsibie.
. |
nO Mr. Kirbow. He woartdn't be a dewnuty at all. -fe'd ba
po | ae ; MEY
! : . . :
az | the dipactor of CIA.
fo | .
og | Sancta Hatd drake Vata k se levaka Fhe denyte for
a ; .
ee Poomerabdons bo ten Rha hive ctor

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fey

aed

Ot

ape

HY 50955 Docld: 32423509

“ta he

e ag Jar.

Ienakor Mathias,

Pep bhat in

the titles?
Mr. Aaron. Not oxackiv because
MNCL. Mayhe nact of yous asuestioan ages

and what kind of

whether you want to deserihm the
thare,
Senator Mathias. Neotien @ ts

excenot fay the semantics.

Nok

Mr. Bader. really. Senater.
Mr. Suanbeck., Ontinn 2?
would he different from thie “irector
Myr. Aaron. he guy you would
the current system still heats be the

the cuv voy vould hold resnenaihle world: he

aceney and not Mr. Bus h, in effect.

remuiremenks there.

kind of.
roaaliv
actually cenparates,

oF CFA,

hold

Nn

ef toct ktalay except for

ha-stiil

a reports to the

to who that person ought
oudht te be on that,

nerson you want out

‘he Prasident's orde

The

oO
pear)

resnensible under

pee. -'ndar option

the head of that

Senator inddles tor, IE ve ao to my narrativenaragraph ae

“Senator Hart. Can on have that written nos and brought
hack?

Senator “Mathias. rorhdnk this could be a critical
reromnendation. .

Sanator Unddleston. bows qo
Tine in thora Chat aorseson bey rsutay |
4 Tee ter at Pos a habbe fh enor:
anhaal onntationa ab tts Costes! ute

Cs ee 2 aes

Page 45

te and

to say we miqht add a

passiblv:to chanda

renstoiliky fine the

Lerner Reto nery

abe mCRET

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HW 50955

That would be the voi reason that To wend think that

vou would move the DCE acey From that.

Senator Mathias, Mh it does not anrear to me that you

exonerate vour nationak intellicence officer, whatever vou

just because, semeone ‘can also point

" heall him. veo tre alse you
i ,
fs iH tn.
i
i! “yo _ . . ‘
74 I think you'd det tee fish on the same book if something
a I aoas wrond .
i . oy : .
. 1 . . a + .
Yj Mr, Naron., To think that vould be in nart trie! depending
;
paonoumen what the partientar sre Lom wag.
ry ff Senator Mathias. Well, sure, if their ae
i :
| : . : co a
yo floewk ef wack and they haven’h called du tha ranairman. they.
a miehe confine the resnarsibility to
i . 7 .
ra | Senator Nuddleston. Actually, you don't exonerate him.
i ;
: ; ;
inj Qe T see it for the operations o€ the Central Intelligence
ig |. Agency vou have added tn tin the responsibility for-the
| . ;
vo ft onarations of the other int -|livence agencies. too, and he has
:
re | kn raviesd authority and be in fact wonld be the flocal roint of
| : . ara) A
be any misdeed or wrond dard chhato may oecur. whether Ptie in
ee PUSS or CTA or whatever.
t .
i Mr. Aaron. Utoecetd cesalis: be very similar Fa the rola.
an ll be would nrw have under ths Vrerubive Order to thea NSA,
Bey ;
i
en | mick closer to that.
ry | Rot hdres or er re ~omayaavapbh and nrescnh it ithe:
yoo ; _
rn fi bhics efternoon. mm mb ere ce ch omer! ten.
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poe Mow the next geaction peters ta the Central Intel liaence

Aqency in general. Now become eo much of our inquiry is
i Focused on the Central tnteltliaence Acenev, we have a rather

inna series of recommendations reaarding ih.

BO a Now the sections are briefly these -- these dealing with

uo the cherter for the Aadeney. for its conde t of esntonede,

" counter-intelliqence: and caverk action, and the auestion of j

QP ycaverk action itself. hee ft. niehk he ennducted endowint Limitathe
{ . , . t
i ;

a miahk specifically. ar rules asecl requlaticns miqht anniv to
il : i
if . . .

- fi,

ay ab.

Mm “The vroduction of inbelliesnce. which is on ies’ wayg, buk
. : |

io | it's not in here, thera ie anobhar section. Then the impatt on

the domaskhic world of these eckisities both inkelliqenne

y4 |eolleation and covert action and t helisve van had 3 90d

ye | discussion af that longer naner eranared by Mr. Bader the G
ye } other day.

And then finally. some Alecussions of the inspection

in evetem, the ceneral counsel. the insmeetor aenaral ane so forth.

yo and some resommendations ino vacard to that.

Aya Thase are tha cant

Poparts of Lk. Et oinelocted of sours
. |

— Loo,
oy seh mathers agonroorieberion, onver and soa forth. :
am . |
a6 Now if we could bisa be toe First set af raceauondations,
on | me queho maka sure that bhore ara bab cligadresmerntes on the

7 “|
a4 fi boavk Phat onead te Cee byossdhh bry coir at boenkiean.
aan | gt Pages yd, Beith bbe w es are) Thera aro Rhine; Bhat |

i , . , ; |

war gt og a tir on] . 1
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Docld:32423509 Page 46

[osre aareacd unon at the o's! tees] that vara jefk ok -

one but several things that vere aareed on ak the staff level
i that subsequently found thetx cas back hers in the exact

oriqinal lancuace,

any others hefarvea

or
Aaron. I have one hare,
Kirhow. Well. duck far your information. there

be several thinds chich were nok just an occasional

Towonlbocdwelboer fhe th now.

Raran. (Cla be Gneuw te take thak ouk too dee what ve

joan do aban it.

the Fireb brackosk that DT fFlud is om page 3S, £
. . . + BS

that that neaenle have. wa can take

Maxwell, Pherete mne oan 27. Teta natoa hreacket but

2) was acstatement that est? have been theluded as to -the

jcommittee's findings as. to inkernel enntrals on espionade

by the Central Takelligcenne Agency.

Aeron. Yes. I reveal) that one,

Measywall. Also on thak nace thera'ts ny av fective

to make sure bhet thase outricde the clandestina

Po think that was avvlressed toa thea CIA beoeuss unless

Se mada ak fhe CEN that the DCT at thig mein. the

Poepj rary Todor rps bees

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Oe neeewe ne toe ae ee at © iat

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if
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to Mr. Caswell.  Plescroessad Papp oavaiecanh en ft the way
iy . . .
[. . |
Pat reads. it assumes thai the Pirsctor of the Central Intelligen
if :
ll nqency who is outside the clandestine service is not able to
| |
if _
dob ensure --
1 , . . :
{ . ; - . a . oo, : .
Boy Mr, Aaron, [To ounderskand. You're right. Okay, if these
of are aqreed things and thas have been dranned out, then let's |
7 fl dust get them hack in.  £ Ann'k know that we have to take the |
:
. 1 oo ‘ . . .
2 subcommittee 's time te de io. on ;
GUL Bet if we missed seme Fhak cere disaareed and naad |
i; . ; . : .
req to he khrowtht fo the aubommetbbhoe . Tt Likes to make sure we |
i a |
iid aek them out. | — : ?
tt . . .
; 2
res | Sepator Huddleston. wR ha bebrer of the nade-on 33, |
| : =. |
. is ffmevte it's dust ret coming theosdh te me but the “lA angages |
1a | in beth overt and elandeshive ackivityv ithin the United States
all for the rurnose of foreian inkealligence collection hy evert |
yall means from American citizens.
on |
| ; |
pe dl Mr. Raren. Tim sorry. C think thak foreign intelligenc
i . - .
a . . Loy . om oO ,
sof eellection. meried, and tren the rest of that sentence comes
wy . oo .
io four.
on | Ane then it says the domechtia collection dees the overt, |
It . . . : . t
7 and the foreian resoure feed fhe coverk,
i : . , : - . : . ;
nye | Okav. my first bracket is on made 36 and it is that the
an
| tad
: ev jl Geomibtee auegtions Pho practice af recebhine for

bs thak bh pa haya in the oast been

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BW 50955 Bocld: 32423509 Page 49

mppreeaca 0 dwt ts deedyegrcn Areordenn ethisendhic.

HW 50955

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i i dnetances in which thnoee shea cere dumicranka to the
| a,
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who wished to have citischechin vere then approached

H intelligence agencies and either sent back «os leaal

and what have you and the question being. the point

vulnerable wanting to

boing that their abate of

8h jPeitizershin in the country morte them more

either actual or implied or sven imaqdined

2 | aoercion,

Qo | Mr, ditenova. Can Toseh a quection about tha

jo | kotatlv unfamiliar with the subject and F'4 ike to
11 | the eavyidenre was on the recocd,
vf
i . .
ot Mr. Aaron. Te cama ous: in two vases that T

Like for PLL] to sreak to one of therm. cone

ae

ia fi the Chinese in which the Chivese were anrreached and
iq |) this purnona, To am nok avara of anv kestimoany that
ref bn fact coercion involved. ‘The quastion was the

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whather it has within it elements of enercion or at

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ney Mr. Beder. Wa have. roveicad testimany From a rrofessor
i cto, . : : : i a
eo, froma university in-the Conthwasgh that esid that ie had acted —|-
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no | or was thea middjeman in an soeration cf. recruitment of Jewish
en tf Fueetan drviarants who cues bo the tindtod “ratag whe fo particular
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HW 50955 |

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9

, whether we should, the Cantral Intelligence Aqency should be

4 . rien | Cre |

i
would return to the United Shates 1 mean the Soviet mion.
We did not take that. testimony anv further than receiving | his
testimony. - That is, we have not taken it to the point of”

asking the agency whether in fact they have such a program

in the Southwest. So the testimony was Limited to that one

charge which I. personally save some real credibility to. ©

Ms. Culbreth. can you explain just what the charge is
here? What is the wrong thet has been done? .

Mr, Kirbow. What's wrong with that? That's the question|
T had in the original sidgastion at the staff lavel,

The only human collecticn we are getting from behi:

the Iron Curtain in Russia today is principally either though
our cooreration with the Teraeli intelliqence community using
just this sort of individial and sending them back, or sending

this tyre of individual from the United States back inside.

We ' ‘re not getting the other human intelligence.

‘Mr. Bader. I waa only “responding to the question of
what the testimony was.
To qo on to the further issue which TI think id going -

to he addressed by the Committees. it's not the question of

iy

recruiting foreigners in this country for intelligence purposes |...
people whe may return to their country of oricin:
The rmeatien in vhethar the individual vhe is in the

nrcoass of sealing Ame ters cttigenshin are in auctes "“vulnerab

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VoNAD & PAUL

Docld:32423505 Page 51

i goo SBA as 8 _ %9

to exploitation for such vernoses and whether in that shading

fae)

the Committee would want to take a position about recruitment

= icf that particular group.

n ¢

4 fh ' Mr. diGenova,. My position is this, Bill. The first
| time I heard about this was when I read it in these findings
. za jana corclusions. I never saw a hearing on it, T never saw a
7 I document about it; Iinever hada chance to comment on it as.
a ‘a desianee, and I never had a chance to bring it up with my
9 Senator.
a) | I'm not sure that we vant te say this, ask the Senators
; Dee
i | t0 say this, without having something in a report about wiht. | ;
, 7 a oe a ot
12 lthe nractice is, how it's been conducted, who has objected to |
“42 it. what's the extent of it, before we start making a |
14 | recommendation.
is | We're saving we auedkion the practice of recruiting, |
- . _ I have no objection to the Committee ultimately making.
we | a statement like this, I just don't know what the record is.’
1a Ii'this is the first time I‘ve ever seen this.
12 Mr. Bader. That's why I wanted it bracketad sa it could |
on | be so discussed. — , oe
21 “Senator Hart. het if se sald we vege the nerminent |
|

» loversight committee to Ieol into this question?

Mr. Aaron. T think th would maka some sense to have

23 ||
24 | antken the Ageney an the reeert that in fact this ie > nractice
{ :
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t

of Vor RBomethine that, hanneses,

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| , MATH fe PAUL

HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 52

mai UP

Ll Senator Hart. If it's hanrnening, [ don't think it should
if we have to sacrifice sume human intelliqence, I don't think -

we ought to have a CIA guy tuaging on. somebody 's sleeve who's*

zl

filling out his immigration forms because it is a verv subtle

4
| i
5 jj and very powerful form of coercion,

6 I don't think it should ao on if it is going on but ..
7 iT think the oversight committee should find out.

e | Mr, Rader. It's my narsonal position on this that -

19 Loom to a conclusion on this
LL | I nearsonally think that Lt's a problem that shouldbe

-s6ne

9 wa don't ave the evidence, Wea have nat taken it through to |

nointed out, and I think nerhang niv own view is that the
12 | formulation of a recommeanation to look into this ag a possible,

LAL ags-a problem would be my recommendation.

15 _ T don't believe thak is Ravid's recannendation,
16 Senator Mathias. T would think that you might as yeu
| contemplate this thing. there are all tvoes ot opeortunities tay

| For this and t don't have any idea whether it's been sone or not,
| but I Gould think an dlledal alien, for examnie, would be a

| tremendous target.

| “Mee Aaron. Tomight jnek aav as

“Sanator Mathias. This a differant nroblem,

Mr. Naron. Tt's a subtte nrohlem because abroad l persons
was involved inv a case da rhieh someone .seaking to omidrate to

Of |e Tnited States, hie destra to co thak was exntcit ted abroad

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HY 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 53

7 t as ar a1
! -
| |
; | cor the purpose of qettins him inte the Ageanoy.
- ' Senator Mathias. ibis ds the kind of situation I'm

3 thinking of, perhaps not an illecdal alien. but someone who is

|
i . .

4 1 4in this country in soma sert of lagal status but which is of
i ;

. to, . .

5 || temporary duration and he wants to change his status.

a Senator Iluddleston.. 1 can see that. Of course you're

9 net going to get one unless there's something he wants. Most

RQ af them, it's either money or some change in his status.

{
a Mr, Aaron, Wea drafted this languace to make clear that
ine
; ; -
y1 [lor neonle here changing thetr status or people outside trying
. : toe

|
! |
| _ . |
er were really immiarants and they were not illeqal aliens©. |
yo | te get in, but neonle who are inside anpniving for their |

a
13 citizenshin.
14 | . Senator Hart. We could offer an ontion to have the
is, | Statue of Liberty sav qive us your huddled masses if you work
“14 for. the CIA.
1? Senator Tuddleston. L think there's a legitimate concer:
ja | and that exploiting people vio legitimately want to be United
vo | States citizens. |
2c | I also helieve that. partionlarly anvone from the soviet |
al union over here trvine ta hdchma an Ameri¢an citizen, it's |
De aping to pretty well diminish his chances if he doar a9 hack. -
oz | to the Soviet tnion that he's aging to be taken into the
fk canfidanae ef vers many oeonle over there,
26 | Mr, Mirhow. This fa nob an uncommon practice for the
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. Warm & PAVE

HY 50955 Bocld:32423509 Page 54

rs . § 7 Ss 2
BP fe mS os FB

{
{
I
jive States. We've hern daina it in the United States

military for generations in giving earlier consideration for...

citizenship if he serves on active duty as en alien in the

|

|

|
ra

& It's heen done as leng as I can remember and I was in

United States. armed forcas.

6 |; the military over: 25 years.
7 . Mr. Maxwell. I think the only question is if we po

B recommend against this practice if we don't oven know --

Q Sepator Huddleston. Tk hothers me that we would indict

|
to | the Aaency with such scant evidence we have,
LW | Mr. Aaron. My recommendation is that we'-get- thavagency |
124 on record as to whether this is the practice or not, -
13 Mr, Kirhow. I recemmand “it be dromped from thie if
14 | we “had orily one witness and ve've not heard the Ayency or
45 that we develop a record to supvort both that andthe’ same

‘

1s | rere ot of that first paragraph, which E don’t think we have a
|
|

17 ree ord on either. i

18 Mr. Aaron. We do have a record on that. ‘It's an

19 | interview record, it's not a avorn ‘testimony. record. “But the

20 i. first sentence. thére is an interview to support that. 7

a1 an “Mri. Kirhow. Mr. Chairman. I think the subcommittee thea
\ oe

20 should carefully consider whether or not it is concerned about.

intetiieence and tf so. bow this imnacks on anybody's rights

or otherwiee,

2% + the tise of American cornpanias in the pursuit of foreidn
i

WAHD %& PAUL

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HW 50955 DoclId: 32423509 Page 55

part

9

HW 50955 DociId:32423509 Page 56

| When we talk about expressly vrohibiting penetration of

| or not we're penetrating those companies with company executives).

g 22 SRI 53
“We just went threvsh this the other day with the labor
unions. The whole paraqvech.
Senator Huddleston. — have some concern with that too.

American companies, it seems to ne that the question is whether

being unwitting or whether --

Mr. Aaron. That's the point.

Sevator Huddleston. It seems to mé the real problem is

jwhen we were doing it secretly. — |
Mr. Aaron. And that's the point. :
Senator Huddleston, The company ought to have the

right to make a determination as to whether or not its interest
would be severely jeovardized if this were to happen.

Mr. Treverton. f think ‘this lanquaqde Srebably isn't.
clear enouch. TE we did human penetration without the
knowledge of the company on the overation of the company”:
orimartiiv tao | |

Mr. Kirbow. Welra talking about a corporate opetation
against a U.S. company in the United States? -

“My. Traverton. Presumably it would nok be in the u28.

Mr. Kirhow. Tf that's what's intended, it dees not |

convay it to evan an informed reader; |

anakor fluddiester, Mell. we sav foredan intelligence

in

collection.

. ts : m4 .

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AN & PAUL

pa

4
PFna 20. b 2

6

HW 50955 DocId:32493509 Page 57

‘

which created the sentences?

ioniv a fey cases,

ates? SEEK S
. 54

Mr. diGenova. May t ask in this reqard, it ends up

hy saying, although accerding to CIA officials such activity

has not taken place ~- what's the other evidence that it has

Mr. Aaron. In looking at what the foreign resources
division does in the way of venatration of businesses as
opposed to collecting aqdants on campuses or in some other

walk of life. we found that the Pp actually runs agents in

The cases are Americans smnloyed by local. industries in
the United States or consulates,
In other words, in ditlomat consulate establishments

in which there area few cases in which indeed the Americans

working for those diplomatic establishments are agents of the

Cth through the foreign resources division; and the aneticans
are not officers of the CIA bnt they vere agents of the CIA
in. that resnect. | . ,

ur. Kirhow. They vork iin the embassies as: you any?

Mr, Aaron. Yes, Nare in the United States. and this

jis talking about domestic imract. This is not ‘thé foreign

situation.
There has been at leset one caer and 1 belive there are
tuo but onty one Tocan epectfy. in which the FRD had oan

American adent ino foretam company. a Foratqn-haced ccmnany.

It was very unambiguous that tha company was a fnrelan company

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WARD A PAR

tod

“2

g
10

Li

12

14

16

iW;

1.8

ae

as to the order of magnitude o£ the recommendations that flow

Br ne Rey hg FH BR aa

because in effect it was a nublic comnany of a country whose
most business enterprises are owned by the government: But
it's a company and it's business and it was a foreign company |

and the question was, and it related to --

‘
|
|
Mr. Kirhow. And this saent was apparently here in the
United States? | | —— |

. Mr. Aaron. Collectina intelligence on the activities “of |:
that company because that comoany had foreign policy implication

for us.)

The next question that’ was put to, I believe, the chief
of the FRD was do you have any reaulations that prohibited. o
you from doing the same thine with an American company?’ And
the answer was no, we don't, although we don't do that or .

we haven't done that or something to that effect.

That is essentially the story and how it came to pass.

ne teeter ne

Mr. Maxwell, There's some question on both of these.

shether there are ways of saving things that are important
as recommendations without implving that A, these had gona on
and B, that we have a record to. support that.

there's also. I gugss, a elight question in my mind
from this in the promulcation of a apecific directive.

That's slightly out of synch with the order of some of:

the other recommerdations. The Committee might want to choose

to dren that -to a fontrets or ta co it in some cther vay,

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ee act

HY 50955 Docld:327423509 Page 56

jie SEQRET

Get se | 56
| |

rt Mr. Aaron. The vornommendation that relates to that is.

2 —

3 Mr. Maxwell. I thought that we had made a finding. It

A was, number 25 on 39, That's a somewhat different order. .

5 Mr. Aaron. No fT take it that --

6 | | Senator Huddleston. ts this penetration always incthe. |
4% context that it's unwitting? 7

Q Mr. Aaron. Yes. If Lt's witting, it's really collaboratic
Q which is another matter. i
10 Senator Iuddleston, $5 although you could be witting --
144 Mr. Aaron, Well. the nenetratina also applies and

12 | mavhe we should also make thia clear, but for the purposes of
1s conducting some creration with reqard to the ordanization, oe

ia | ohather to make it do something in the covert action sense

LS. which. collect information on it, |
16 If it were simply unwitting cover, that's a different...

ia thing. :

18 | Mr. Maxwell. I don't think, avid, that penetration was

19 | used in a context in the agency in the NH/BOUND ~~

Mr. diGenova. Penetration was for security purhoses.

20 -
9y | Ib's to discover whether or not there is in fact a fly in the f

og | ointment with reqard to the security nf an American company. .~|-
bs thet's the way tbo was used in Mu/ROUND, oa
a | cenator Rutdlestan. That's putting a eny in the

ag || orcanization.

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HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 59

9

“190

LL

12:

13
14

£5

16

Lt

second one it seema to me that if we could frame some" languadei

OY. HSA I Beg *

Mr. diGenova. Welt, vas. In this case they penetrated
Burbank, California and other companies, mostly defense ca
contractors building planes in nrder to find out they haa a
security risks, a laborer ot an executive inside.

Mr. Maxwell. It was witting. to a certain extent. |

Mr. Bader. I think one of the problems we have here is. |.

this question of whether in cur formal recommendations that we‘ ‘|

| should enjoin the agency From doing things that they don't do.

And where, there's no evidence thev have any intention me
Mr. Kirbow, The '47 Act nrohibits this kind of conduct

within the United States.

Mr. Bader. And.T think that that should be carefully~

considered. We have no evidence that the Central Intelligencé)

“Agency penetrates Congressional staff, but we have nok put it

in as a recommendation thak thev ahould not penetrate

Congressional staffs.

I think the other matter that has been raised abou the

ke

onerational axploitation of racruiting individuals who are in.

an immigrant Status and seeking a change a change in étatis, ~~
we do at least have wnat I hela to be a responsible soturce Ao
saying that this practice, he has seen this in practice.

«

“I think we should senarate the two issues and on the

that is lanauage cf eantion and concern. or we should move very

auicklv. it saems to me. ke taka come testimony from the Agency

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HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 60

oO

LO

11

fay
ng

|
The cuestion is if the Committee gets asked a cuestion:
|

4 : et Oe oo A hee fe
on that mater hefore we vay talk about the matter of the |
nractice. of recruiting hecause I don't think we can use the.
word practice until such time as we have --

Mr. diGanova. I didn't mean to iinugn the inteqrity

of your source.

boot
s

‘about it later on and someon® comes back and reviews these
records and sees one rerson vas spoken to or something, r
don't realiv think that's much of a record to go around making ~
findings and conclusions in 2 final report.

It has nothing to do with the integrity of the man from. |)
whom the information came. He's probably right. |

Mr. Aaron. I'd like to recommend that on that particula

noint we tried to nail down with the Agency a little more

carefully what the current nolicv or practice is and on the
question ~-- but I still stand with the view, I might gay, on |

‘the second one of expressing concern if indeed there is a. -

nractice and we do know that sosie of it has taken place in the.
nast, if there's still no quard against it, then I think perhapa |
Senator Iart's recommendation about hew the oversight committee
shonld pursue this auestion firther would he sufficient. —— |=
Senator Huddleston. Well, paragraph 22 over on 39. |
Lf arvlied to the FRR, would ke a pretty good approach, I think |

Mr, Aaron. That ce rld nok necessarily rile out -- it

would not step un te fois isestion, This really is aimed abroac

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BW 50955 Docld:32473509 Page 61

Hey l et) Se a

/ at the question of duplication wtth overt reporting by the

2 military attaches or by tie foreian service or whomever.

ca In other words , it's trying to establish a standard.
4 ; _ Senator Huddleston. Okay, so where are we?

5 Mr. Aaron. I think ué'ra at the Following point that
6 as far as the bracketed sentence is concerned, we'll go back

is necessarv of including tla paragraph alons the lines:

: to the Aqency and establish what the practice is when review.
|
| suaqested .vy Senator Hart saving the oversight committee should |

10 | look into this particular prantice if indeed it is a practice

Vy | with the absence of policy on this point. i
12 ' As to the question of American companies, I think I
14 || still need te be directed as to how to deal with that. I

think when in doubt, delete.

16 | we say it's a good practice?
vel Mr. Aaron. Well, the: Committee notes that it's been

Senator Hart. Can we just commend them for that? Can |
13. the practice not to do this ana that that should continue as _
oe |

t

ja) a part of their standard proceduras.

50 |. “Senator Mathias. liave we ever conmended them?

e

oO] Mr. Rader. There in much text here which talks about

2p sensible, - resvonsihle practices,

22 ‘Senator Mathias.  T do think vou should mention that we'fe
ea | talking about their domestic onaration=s of American commanies.

“Toe SECRET

‘ADR EE Fy PR

| | anes pe |
25 | “Mr. Aaron. Yes... FRY is sepposed to tell vow that but: |
|

HY 409545 Docla: 32423509, Page 62

Heh os eT er | on

|
‘

. qf

" fait doesn't .

ei Senator Mathias. I think on page 36 and 39 it ought .-

3 | to refer to domestic operations. .
i ; . . wk

at Mr. Kirbow. I think wa miqht want to consider too that

° | there's an extensive section of the domestic activities of the

6 | CIA coming into the domestic task force report; the subconind tted!'s
‘F i renort. And if don't put in a : comment Like this. it'll
a orehably Sal qo in that other section. thareas hera we're |

3 dealing with an apparent nossihility that sometime in the i

remote future there could be ah abuse and thére’” dealing with.

the. abuse section and this kind of departs from what you!
. . Lo . i

i

done otherwise.

‘Mr. Rader. I would say on that score that this is a

foreion intelligence matter. That is the objective, And TI

here.

Mr. Kirbow. It is on the immigrants, but TI don't think:

|
!
|

is | think if it's going to he mentioned, it should he mentioned
whether or not you're penetrating an American company to,
i

illegaliv or anything e153. if there's any way you can aet arou a.

it
ey
Len

20 the 1947 Act which prohibits that kind of. activity hy the |
pi. | CIA in the United States for whatever purpose, td penetrate |.
jo | them other than. séeurity of vour own facility: of
an, Mr; Maxwell. One thing that miaht make this easier is r|-
ea | think that if vaarnrasaad and conaern in that directicn exiaté |

2 | in reqard to this practice. ue vould aet one nromutcdaked quite |

2 | ; -

i ; By 4 : r
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| . fo Aen & PAUL 4

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yeah A . i WA h Be ad

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1 oniekly.

a Mr. Aaron, I would recommend that we accept the
© auqgestion that we put this in a positive sense and proceed-
4 i} on that basis and clarity the word penetrate and the fact
3} | that it is the domestic aspect.
4 .. . Mr. Kirbow. Could ve ask the Agency to comment in

2 some way so that at least wa don't. recommend to you that you ~~ ne

| APO me PAUL

a | , Mr. Aaron. rtd be hanny to do that acain.
oii Senator Huddleston. Wall, now it's 12:00, TI hope there |s
10 |) some wav we can get through this today, which would inelude |
| of course a night session which Senator Mathias and I are hs
3 available for. |
1s | Wa'va done 38 naqes out oF 160.
" Mr. Aaron. I think it will give Focus assentially on |
5 | the reconmandations and the bracketed portions that that “|
18 | ghould prove possible to at least break the back of it.
1? | Senator Huddleston. ‘a can at least try. .
18 My, Barons If we come hack at 2:00, I think we could
12 ntohably have cleared avae a couple of the other sections and
20 then we will be really ready. fe will have the full book here | -
aL | and wa can qo at it; | |
nO . - Senator Mathias. 2:09, I think. would be hetter for me: |:
23 | Let's say 2:00, | | a
ed "  geanator Huddleston. Het adjoren until 2:90. |
25 | (Whereucon. ab 12:09 o'clock noon, the hearing in |

| TOP SECRET | !

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HW 50955 Docld: 32423509 Page 64

wyiter ots, uo . go. ‘ Br Hay “Shee #6 ase A . Vs

the above-mentioned matter vas recessed, to reconvene at

mm

2-00 o' glock of the same day.) .

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al

Bor

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oe
O27 |

24
ez
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| ‘TOP SECRET

MARO & PRUE

Hy 50955 DoclId: 32423509 Page 65

‘ Re rae

Hl o2a
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mn APTERP COUN SESS LON (2:20 pom.)
2 ; : Mr. bAder. Mr. Chairman, before you. begin If might.
4 Lo
4 mention’ that tomorrow morning at either 9 or 10:00, depending
4 upon whether this subconmittee meets tomorrow morning, wé've
5 “arranged for representatives of the FRD, the Foreign nEsources
‘gs || Division of the Central Intelligence Agency, to. give us... 7
a _ testimony on some of these issues that have been raised, such'a
Q | the use of immigrants, some of the figures that they've given us 7
Q | and this question of penetration of American businesses.
oO | That will be scheduled, as I sav, at either 9 or 20:00}.
11 | depending on whether the subcommittee meets tomorrow mornings. |”
io We would like to have a Senator swear those witn ses.
1a : and then obviously any Senator who would like to attend is of
oy | invited. . |
15 | fe
Ke ee
17 - : -
18 | | a
: _ | “
Loe an
elo ae
23 | /
“pa | - | . oo . a oe
25 | : oe . |
| «TOP SECRET |
Ki a WATID & TAUL |

BW 50955 Docld:32423503 Page 66—

aah 64 ! wa 8 RBS me Rea ; 53

1:
a Senator Huddleston. My thinking now is that we. would

5S ii meet probably at 10:00.

Mr. Bader. We could certainly do it in an hour's time...

4 |

5 Senator Huddleston. 1 would like to attend that session. 7
6 Mr; Bader. So we'll start at 9:00 promptly:

yd Senator Huddleston. Senator Mathias had the suggestion |

& | that in view of the fact thet there is spacific legislation

|
if . . . :
a | relating to that subject and that's in the Immiaration Act <-

Lo Mr: Bader. I've asked them to he prepared to sodak to |
il | their interpretation of the provisions and restrictions i

2 | Immigration Act. | . oe os | Sel.
Vz | Senator Huddleston. But -our recommendation is that | |

wae we would review.the act and the practices.
5 Mr; Bader. If we have this room, as I hone we do, we

16 || would take the testimony right here and if need be, move it. j:.fe.

L? || to another room.

1s - Senator Mathias. In the event that I should not ba

20 || at this thina pretty closely.

As Senator Huddleston said earlier, you-don’t recruit

nS

|

H

i
i¢ | able to be hete, and I hone Twill, T think we ougtt to look ;
29 || these people just out of the blue unless there's some reason © |
en | for them to sign tip, and T doen’b think we want to he toa |

es | aritical of reeruiting rrarccturees: to revert to the ohrase that

en. we used vesterday, ther avo sonsenting adults. , |
TO? SECRET
i . Ta cety ae PAUL . . , |

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cah G4

i | | GX Seid | 64.

'I think what we have to look at is the deqree of coercio

which ig. implied here, the kind of bind that you get these

wherever they came from. and what sort of a crack do you put

them in and that not only goes to the humanitarian aspect of it,

“hut to questions over liability and the rest.

avi

{
i
i
a people in where they realiv are perhans. totally alienated from
i
!
\
!

Senator Huddleston. 1 think they could be very helpful
8 | to us.

3 Mr. Rader. Senator. € could also try to adjust the time |

Senator Mathias. It could he Kefore or after our afternoon

feed
fo

meeting, if that would be mare in your reach. i

Senator Mathias. Well, I haven't gotten my , walking C

for the morning y2t.

Mr. inderfurth. Tt's interesting in this raspect to th

about Lee Harvey Oswald, ahout his‘being over there, and. we're

nog

talking about immigrants coming here and defectors and so on.

ned
= &
TE

Top SECRET

WARD & PAUL

19 Senator Mathias: It's the other side of the coin.

18 | Senator Huddleston. There's a question of how many ed
12 we ought to close. | i:
, : Senator Mathias. Mr. chairman, I reqret to raise a

_ rurther complication. There's a meeting that T had for 6100"

29 | that's now heen postponed ro 6:39, So it would probably mean -

2 | : nee .
a3 i f can't aat here untii 7:39, |
DA Senator Hutteston, Navhe 7:30 vould be a verter time: |
ont Aan & Know. Thase pearls need to get out and qet sora fresh |

|

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HW 40955) Docid:32423509 Page 68

ats “af sme WE HE

'air too, I vould expect.

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2 Before we get into the substance here, I understand that
© our: new mandate is if possible to. complete ours no. later ‘than:
‘1 i eriday. So we're going to trv to shoot for tomorrow.
5 | What the “Chairman would like to do vould be for us te
6 | have our report in some kind of form that we can give to the
? Full Committee by Friday eo that they can review it over the.
5S i weekend and the Full Committee can start on it on Monday.
a Noy how do you think vou would stand.on that proposition?
10 Mr. pader thia ia the principle findings, conclusions |
“ALY ana recommendations? | po.
12 Senator Huddlesten, vag, which would mean that whd
13 i changes we are making here in nhraseoloay and go forth. should if
Ld be incorporated and retyped. | '
is | We have that problem..
i8 | Mr. Aaron. I would think that that's do-able. I mean
wy | it remains to be seen how extensively you would want t9 ey
13 debate some issues and the extent to which you will simply want |
19 | to bracket. them or identify them and have the orinciral |

1

“Ft I would think that that's feasible.

¢

Senator Huddleston..Ta delay it past Fridav, of course,

wotild delay the time that the Phil committees could consider it

aaeets) discussion take place in the Full Committae.—
| hecause they need te heve it-in their hands at least cne day.

94 || Tt might ao fast in the Fuld Comm thee. TI. have no wav of

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TARO & PAUL

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ae Ter ee 8S

knowing.
2 Mr. Kirbow. Bill. because you and I both know Senator .

3 " Nathias's previous intentions statéd in. the letter to. the”

4 Chairman, was there somewhere a discussion about releasing

5 | this piecemeal ahead of time that might. that should ao on the
a) ! record here? . . .
7] | Mr. Miller. If it's aqreeable to the Subcommittee.to
a | set it dona by the weekend. he nroposes that thev take up

“in Full Cgmmittee the findines and recommendations of the

|
o |
|
1.6 I eoretan qroun.
Wy The domestic group is much further behind, so they

12) would not take it up until about the 24th,

13 The question of whether to release any information or

‘44 | any.renort that may be decided by the Committee oe

ay
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18 Senator Huddleston. We'll let the Full Committee decide
16) that when they get the renort; | - eee
cy | : Now where ara we then on the report part?

13 _ Mr; eon We hava, we're in an extensive program of. nF
49 trying Eo get the Agency's Laws as to what information ig

gources and methods and what-is classified for othar reasons

and what have vou.

aq

a
, = DQ «

a9 - We have, T believe. all but four papers have heen read’:

a3 1 by the Agency in one form or another and are in the process |

py Of going . ouk there. whe four that are not are the Congreso
os | oversicht and the CIA hadget paner, although the budaet section
54 : t '
| . : WARE PAUL a

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comty ote

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tog the defense report, which is the substance of that, has been.

e | aiscuesed at great Length ° vith the ‘Defense Departinent and they
| are happy. with it except -- welt, happy with it may’ be an

4 exaggeration but they have no prohlems with it except for the

a | numbers and the Committee itself will have to steo up to the

6 / suesticn of whether the iarze number or any subsets of numbers

4 will be released.

B | The internal oversiatt. the Office of General Counsel

a and Inspector General has not heen.

10} Is that right? |

VL | Me Maxwell. what's right. No material that was Yea

19 il there. was derived from classified material. : 2 —

1% Mr. Aaron. So that showldn' t be a problem. “The

ta general papers on covert ac etion and espionage hav2 nut been

45 aiven to them. They are just being completed by the ataft

16 essentially. ‘All the others, and the chemical and biological ~

i7 | one has not been shared with them.

18 / Now beyond that all the others, I believe, have now

gone ott to the Agency in one form or another. The only one

is the Denartment of State*s paper and the Departmen =

e

le
ahead on.

{
nO that seems to be approved, or at least we've gotten thea go- ~
| requested one deletion, which we are prepared to make.

* |
25 } Serator Huddleston. All right, then, As I understand
aa | it. the Chairman. if we are able to set ours to him so the
og | Pull Committee can hoctn on findings and caconmendations on
TOP SECRET
“WADE ® PAUL

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Mh i , au. 4 PRT Ne AE HS 4

| ' Monday or Tuesday, even. his haope is that during the course

. -_
2 of ‘the next week the Full Committee will’ finish that.

ra In the meantime, of course, we can still be working’ on‘

4 these reports looking toward: hopefully, if we could have those

5 i by the end of next week, too, then the Full Committee would

5

be in a position of at least having the material available to. |

Net
n

them 1f we decided to release everything at one time or if

That's about as much as we can hope for.

|

|

! . oo,
B | we needed a few more davs to refine the reports themselves.

|

i

|

Mr, Aaron. Okay; T think that to be realistic about the

11 |) longer material., it is a lct longer and I think to be at

i

Le proud ° of the material we will want to be sure that |
done through it. | | |

| So therefore t think the ena of next week is probably -
not realistic of having it in shape for the Full Committee to

On the other hand, T think that before the and of the |)

month it would be possible to have a product. unless we run

|

1¢ | bless it
:
|

into some enormous snaq.

Senator Mathias. But that does not centemplate the

‘axecutive review.

€

My. Aaron. No, T'n sorry. that is including executive

a2
9% | review.
ye .
an Mr, Miller per if Joes not contemplate printing.
DA | a :
eB, oo ; Mr. Aaron. That a sarreack,

: T2P SECRET

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Coreen eo sg

Mr. diGenova. Yestarday, Mr, Bolton indicated to me

2 | when I was there that there was no way that they could complete
5 sources and methods review by the 15th of March, and I said

4 | 1 didn't see how they could either, since they had just really

bequn. having access a weak or so ago or whatever it was.

6
7 || considering the rewrites’ and a chance to look at the rewrites--
8 Senator Mathias. T have been independently advised of .

3 | the same thing, that the end of the month is mavhe a little

10 -ootimistic:

1 Mr, Miller. Senator Church just talked to Directo Bush oe

and I talked to Mitch Regovin just prior and worked out am

|
1s arrangement on the question of clearances of sensitive material |
14! and the Chairman told Mr. Bush that he will take whatever time
is 1 is required. he asked for exneditious effort on their part.
in || Mr. Bush said that he would urge his troops onward, and he

i7 || resoqnized that there had been snags and difficulties. The |

Q | Chairman said that he was not going to press bevond the

1a | capability of either side. He wants to. de the proper job

ah
ste.

. ° and whatever time is required,
He said that he honed that we could cooperate and work

¢

‘oo | At nut 80 that we could firish by the end of the month. | And
| My. Bush said that he would make every effort te do that,
. So that seeris amicahin hetween the Chairman and the -

DE Nirector.

‘TOP SECRET

WATTK & TAUL :

And they seem to think that the end of the month is probably,:
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i sik? SRORBY | 19

wo _ Then the question srnsa about the deadline on the 15th
a and the-Chairman is going to Ask that this deadline be set: |

aside because of the problems of not. heing able to finish |

3
a | s ecurity and those other matters.
5 i , So he is taking steps to do that now.

6 | “Senator Huddleston. Rut I think it's still encumbent
a ! onus to make a special effort to move. as fast as we can, and -|"
a we plan to co ahead tonight.

a Okay, now we get back.

ane) | Mr. naron. Wa're on page 37 -and the procedure wa! re: |
iil trvind to follow to. "expedite things ig to look vecttcutaedp |
to at the recommendations and at the bracketed ‘language. |

Ln . Now recommendation 29 ~~

14 4 | Senator Huddleston. Refore we aet to 20, there's a .

LS problem in wording. "The last paragraoh before 20, the

LA | Committee also found that. there's no established inter-Agency. :
i7 | mechanisms for astablishina the bona fides of defectors.

18 ! You've used established twice there. |

19 | Mr. Aaron. I think we san take the first one out. |
an | . MBi Culbreth. ‘ve nicht say, David, that the staff hopes |

ee lies

bi | to take a teal editorial ehot at this before it gets onblished,
go y anyway, and mavhe aven bef-re it gets to evervbody next week, ©

5% || and wa would hapa that ve can gek a lot of these thinde,

24 | Aut certainty. anv thak vou see that you want us to
!

on | he sure that we aat to. noint out,

Bb

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WARD & PAUL

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Mr. Kirbow. Mr. Chairman, on that marticular thing, at

the staff level I had bracketed that entire paragraph hecause.

| I'm not sure what we're trvind to accomplish by what you say

there.
‘This is probably the most difficult task that faces

a counter-intelligence organization any place in the world
is to establish whether or not a defector. that you have just
picked up is a double agent or not. |

I iistened to the man who has done this all his adult
life at the Agency, Mr: Analeton, and he never made it clear
just how vou ever are sure that you have a bona fide, 2 -

And then his follow-on said basically the same things.
What ao we intend to do with this findina? Do we intend then.

to leqislate something? What are we qoing to do with it?

Mr. Aaron. The finding goes to the recommendation later
that there be essentially for othar purposes. But a

stibcommittee of the National Security Council on the subject”

of counter-intelLigence which. would look at other matters and

we will- get to that ih a memant. but among its tasks is that

tt would he a forum in which ‘differences of opinion as to the
bona” Ptmes of a defector could be discussed and potentially
reconciled,

Mr. Angleton testified and snoke at lenoth in other

really is no way that there's a difference between the FBI. and

Tope SECRET

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forums with us about the fnek that when -- that at present shee
MANO & PAUL |

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‘OTA as to the hona fides cf a defector and there's no way for

the government to come to a decision about it.
And this really makes that point and leads to the furthe

ooint that we believe thare ought to be some mechanism whereby

‘some decision can be reached. Now people may still have.

reservations, as. they do about this particular individual we
refer to here. But in the end one has to make a decision and

simolv keeving him in a jail some place is nrohably not a

useful way, to proceed, and in fact, this is the kind of
recommendation that comes from Mr, Angleton and seems to be

supvorted by other neople. evan his successor at the Agen
: . i

Mr. Kirbow. Do we-have any place in our findings ¢
discusses the so-called. this single case of some sort here?
Is there some evidence?

Mr. Aaron. Yas.

Mr. Kirbow. re's soing to be in the report when somebod
alse reads this? They' i be able to go some place else and.

sée what vou're talking about?

ee

Mr. Aaron. That's correct. It will be in, I believe dttis

in the paper on counter-intelliaence. It's also addressed
n the Pockefeller Commission report.

e

Now as the first recommendation. I think that we have.

Asread at the ataft level to baka out. the brackets and cut a

Footnote which would make th clear that while the nrimarv

mission. of the CLA would ha to caltect denied or rrotacted foreign

TOP SECRET

WARD f& TAU

‘ot

20

a a

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I ata to produce national intelligence. That kind of thing. Thal

am ae ano — ae Be Q a

intelliaaence information, that .this would nok, you knatw. that
at the same time the Agency could be directed to perform such:
other collection tasks as directed by the NSC.

In other words, the noint is that certainly they do
dome overt collection. Por axannle, foreign broadcast informati
service is done by them as a service and so forth. But at. thes.
same time the noint of aivina the CIA a charter is to give” ie
a charter for its primary mission and as sat forth NSCIb 5 .
fer caxamole, that mission ia to conduct esnionace. |

Senator Mathias. What ahout the rele of statistical .

analysis? That kind of analvsis that can be deduced from

study of voluminous quantity of economic information much

of which is public?

I'll qo back to the ball bearings. the bali bearing

factory.
Mr. Aaron. ‘Well, this qoes to the point really of... .
tha organization of this section. There's a separate, section.

on the production of intel Lidgance which would authorize the:

Central Intelligence Agency as the producer of national

intelligence must be the recindent of all intelligence flowing-

¢

into our overall national intelligence effort, and that

intellicerce includes orreck intelligence as collected from

«

the Treadury Denartment. feem Commerce from Labor attaches

TOP SECRET

7
abroad. the full geane of infermavion cellectine, most of “4
VT Re FAUL, |

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HW 50955 Docld:32493509 Page 78

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‘and that, while it was once in the State Department, was

ae Cer ee | a ia

is not secret or clandestina and. is ‘available to the CIA and it
would be their job to comrile it.
And that does not exclude other functions. For example,

the analytical function is not mentioned here. This is simply

to dive it the collection function and that is because the

paper is simply organized in that fashion. It doesn't try to.

step up to the whole charter, every aspect of it. We just try.
to break it down.

Mr., Mauwell. Should there be a kind of overt foreign
intelligence which the NSC with the mechanism for allocating

priorities within the intelligence community — should fhe.

done by the CIA?

It could under the formulation now do that.
Mr. Aaron. That's why for examole there's one thing tha
they do that's overt. Even their clandestine people abroad

do an overt collection’ job and that is biographic information |

transferred to the CIA hecauge they have a lot of clandestine

bioaraphic information and as a matter of centralizing and

dfficiency the decision vas made to move it over there.

That kind of thing would not he. precluded and would stil

exist.
Now it goes on to state that in doing this we would also

reconmend authorizing the CIN to carry out the recruitment of

adents within the Unite! States fer this purpose. And it goes

TOP SECRET

WARD M% FAUL -

cpa ES

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HW 50955 Doecld:32423509 Page 78

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fact not infringing on Constitutienal rights or attempting to

AO RAL ed %

further to say that there would he an annual review of this
activity by the Senate oversight committee and by the
counter-intelligence committee which we proposed be established
and has been. agreed here as a recommendation of the Natdonal

Security Council.

Now the further sentence that is in brackets calls upon -

the Attorney General to certify to the President and to’
the oversiaht committee that these actions ara being tsken in
a manner that does not violate the Constitutional rights of
American Gitizens or any other provision of law.

Trving to keep track of the domestic intelligence -

recommendations is a little bit like painting a moving tratn,
but this tends to coincide with their recommendation, and the
purpose of this is obviously to place a little tighter

restriction and more authority in the hands of the Attorney :

General to ensure that these domestic espionage-related actions, |

that are conducted on a covert or clandestine basis ara in-

break the law in any way.

Mr. Kirbow. You're really talking about recruitments

ll

now. You're not talking about other clandestine and dnovert

activities and operations? |
Mr, Aaron. Thatis corract., It's not, for example, if

vou ware to establish a basa in Florida for tha vurvoges of

harassing Cuban shipnirs. That would not, come up here.

TOP SECRET

WARD & CAUL

|
7
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a

am th Woo we ade e rp

Mr. Kirbow. And tha bracketed information, Mr. Chairman,

was that I didn't feel at the time we considered this and I

asked that it be bracketed, that the Attorney General who vis ..

never going to operate in this area alone, he is not going.

and if he's going to do that with people in the Department of |

oy

|
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5 to make these decisions without staff support of some deseripti: n,
‘Justice, “which. is where he gets the staff, the concern of. the | ®

8 people in the Agency about lroadening even within their own

Qo ageney these people that know about the agent procurements and

19 || where they are and whom they are is of vital concefn, Itia |
| probably one of the most carefully guarded secrets. Evan’ 7 shel
12 yp extent that Mr. Colby testified befor this Committee sina

13 oath. he said, I don't want -to know the names of +he agents

|
14 bacause someone may want to decide some day to wrassie it |
. i.
jut of me. ep _ “|

—
on:

‘I don' t know what the Attorney General certifying here |

is || does for you if.” on the | “gana subcommittee you | have the Der,
who is the President! s principal man, you have the secretaries.
i

49 | of state and all these other teople apparently at the beck and
a9 || call in intelligence matters to put the Attorney General and

D1 his staff into the aqent. procurerant business.

29 Senator Hart. Not in the agent procurement business...
0% , Mr. Kirhow, I mean with knowledge vf agent. procurement.
24 ~ Senator Hart, Well. the Attorney General is in the

business cf unholding and Aefending the laws of this country

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HW 50955 DocId: 32423509, Page 60


eee ‘ a ee Toor oo a "7

i ot and he can't do that if hs doesn't know when one of the agené¢ies
2 of the Federal government might be breaking them,

Bd It's a chicken and eaq situation.

4 | Oe Mr. Kirbow. You think he should approve the policies or

5 | the actual procurement of the agent.

“Senator Hart. The procedures. Nothing in here. I mean

2 ll we have araued this ‘thing for 13 months, there's nothing here

8 | that remiires the Agencev to barn over names of their sources |
9 or anything like that. |
10 The Attorney General doesn't need to know the names |

&,

Li | even more than Bill Colby does. or less. Just to find out $hat_
12 |) the procedures of violating the laws of this country, thatbs °
13 i all.

ia Ms. Culbreth, Could I raise another point, Mr.

15 || Chairman?
16 | ' It seems to me that one of the concerns that you have

17, | with having the Attorney General certify in this specific.

18 | case to the President and aiso to the oversidht’ committees”
| 4s a consistent problem that T-think runs throughout our
20 | racommendations.
' >

"On the one hand, we are describing for accountability.

within the Fxecutive Branch of the proner people, andon the

22
23, || other hand we are afraid that if we make him accountable, we're
e4 | giving him sn much nower that thev are going to disragard the >

og | constitutional obligations.

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HW 50955 ‘DocId: 32423509 Page 61

Hom, ow a | To 3 ce)

In this specific situation, for example. we've already
2 | ‘aot the Attorney General being involved with the oversight
3 | responsibilities. When he takes office he already hag the - —

1. | obligation to see that all the laws and activities of agencies

oT

are carried out as they're supvposed to be.

And in addition to ‘hat, we are provosing in another. -)::

part of our recommendations that the qeneral counsel and ‘the

insnector qeneral of the CIA he snbject to Senate confirmation —

~

sa that there ara Jots of other kinds of checks, and I would ~

just hope that as the Senaters consider additional proposals :

1, ] Like this. that we donit aet to the point that the Congres.

is hamstringing them inside the adencies on how they cairys. ;

ont the resnonsihilities:

well: this is a good idea and we should have this additional
cartification or. this addition. chain of reporting and making

= |
Each one of these standing by itself may look like, | [_
sure vou cet it authorized,

a

oy |
12 a But T have a fear after having looked through a food -
19 bit of this. that we are getting too many layers dn there, and
4) I would just urge a caution if there: are situations where we |
2 mavke have tt oretty well sovered until wa jet some opportunity
ao c see how this new set—un is aoina to work, whether we're)
ed | coing to have the kind of abuses wa had hefore: Mavhe we don't |

| ng | need enon of thear datails of Congress doing down into the 7

. |

on | agencies and saving hee Fie a9 about their day te day business

TO? SECRET

WARD & PAUL

HW 50955) Docld: 32423509 Page 62

ho soa bse ow 8G be Pi : au

1 Mr. diGenova. Mr. chairman, I. would add-in that regard
t ° ’
I

2 that with cegard to the sracific recommendation, this is

3 |} not going down into the Agencv. This is talking about the

A Attorney General who ig the head of an agency, first of all,

5

and the history has shown that other Attorneys General who

took thea same oath that this man did didn't do their jobs and _

thines,

9

|
2 | one of the reasons was that they didn't know about certain
|
| _
And, the nurpose of this vrovision is to make them aware

16 ll of what Is aoing on; to make leqal judgements and ‘to advise -

Lk i, the President. about the leaslity nF procedures attending ee
reernitment, of adents and other activities within the confines

of the United States.

The vrovision for confirming the inspector qenaral and

soneral, counsel is a wholly unrelated thing to this. although —

T don't see how that does that becatise he's going to.
be dealing with the MCcr.

146 hie doesn't. ao to the problem of reaching down into the Agency.
|
Senator Huddleston, Contrary to many of the things. that .

I>

20 wa do. we provide wavs to corract abuses once they ‘ve happened

a; | and it ~geams to me this is a nrincival wav of trving bo avoid
| abuses to start with:
a tf 7 ware on the overstaht committee T would nertaintly,
4 | and if wera oqekhing tha information that we contennlate the |
an | committée would get, than khat is ve vould know abot hase thinks
7 TOP SECRET
| ee : WATTO PAUL

HW 50955 DociId:32423509 Page 63

a a es veld) ths Syn OG Ha A -

Ns sould certainly want ko atta whether ‘or not the chief

2 jaw enforcement officer of the country thought they were

& || leqal or illegal, or if thera was a question about it.

‘A 7 Senator Mathias. 1 have a real question if I were
5 || Attorney General whether L would sign what we would call for

6 | here.

4
| Senator Huddleston. ‘he certification bothers mea [>

8 little bit.
}
j

Senator Mathias. Uow could I as Attorney General sav

9 |

. | |
yo that T certify that all the actions in thie area do not violate |
14 n

Constitutional rights of American citizens or anv other pygvisi

ip ina:

{
j
Le lof law?
| T have worked in a state law department and had to |
| aten some certifications much simpler than this. and i agonized |
i§ | over them. And this is so far beyond the personal knowledge
46 || of the Attorney General for nim to make any kind of certificatign,

iy it think we should get hin involved but I question whether it

198 | should be » certifying.

a Senator Huddleston. What's tha sten just under actually! —
eo tl certifvind? oo .
Pa | “fie could review. He anid certainly taisa a red flag: -
| a oe a

oo || Hid aath would require that he do something.

Senator Mathias; If vou force him to cartify, 2 think

|
{.
|
4 | voutra coaing to cet sich a wishv-vashy thing that to his

BD

knowledde and he wasonet advised to the contrary and stuff like

TOP SECRET

WATD A CRUEL

HW 50955 DociId:32423509 Page 64

mooi Qt

GO SeCRBT on

Mx. Aaron. I think that's a fair point. the question,

|
a | I auess, the case at which the certification would run most wou a

4 tadd to what already ‘isin the sentence preceeding it dalek!
& is review by the Committes which the Attorney General is

7 to chair, would be the casc in which the Attorney General, is

7 | aware ofa particular activity, {s aware that it-is illegal

a but just doesn't do anvthina. about it on the theory that it

Qa | is somehodv else's husiness. And hea doesn! t really, he doesn't ;
10 | have an obligation in this category of matters to render

11 | a judqment and bring it to the attention of the président a

1B

Senator Mathias. why don't we say this. that the

|

|

|

a
| the Congress.

i

13
14 Attorney General be required to advise the President and the
15 oversight committee that he is familiar with the orocedures
16 || established to. accomplish this purpose and that he is not
ma aware of anv’ violation of the Constitution or other: law in’ as
18 || the execution ‘of the action...

Genaral
Mr, Aaron. Wold it he vcogsible to just make it sort.
of a reporting funetion in which he said; and this is in the —

sama direction, tha Attorney General will he required to

a
2

fa

DA arivige the Presi ident and the oversight sommittee Pf he finds

25 that these options | are heing taken in a manner that violates?

foe SECRET

WWATIO Be AUR

{
[
IT think you can lav that kind of a burden on the attorney .
|
|
i
“HW 50955 DocId:3 423509 Page 85. .

cage 2 : a a a ope 8, | : Un

i:

Senator Huddleston. Yes. First he must review them.

2 ie Mr. Aaron. And if he finds a violation, evidence of

3 | violation, then he must renort to the President and the

4 i oversight committee, Just place the responsibility there.

5 7 Senator Huddleston. If in his ovinion.

A I Senator Mathias: I wouldn't have any trouble with that.
7 Mr. Maxwell. I have one other point on that paragraph

® | and that is it provides for annual review by the counter-

o intelligence committee of the Mational Security Council.
10 | IT had understood we were dealing with the recruitment -

11} of agents for the United States foreion intelligence purpoges,.
12! and the question is whether the counter intelligence committee
13 which was to focus on resoliing issues involving the hona

ia || eXaes oF defactors, issues betwaen the FBI and CIA, would be.
is || the body which would have the appropriate knowledae in the

16 | positive intelligence value, or whether it should be assigned

iy || to a counter~intel Ligence function. —

It's simply a question of where the responsibility

18 |
ao | shouta be allocated for revieving those within the National
20 - Sacurity Council structures, and Towasn't clear whether the
21. oounter-intelliaence committee was the appropriate one,
22 | Mr. Aaron. Well, on that point,. tha purpose of setting
23 | up the counter-intelligence committee is esssntiilly to look
eq | at the domestic impact of one intelligence activities, tha
25 | primary ones being in the counter: intelligence Field but also
TOP SECRET
; NAO ® PAUL .

50955 Docld:32423509 Page 36

een pe et en a ne ce ren seg ee

is
HE . ° * . 2 "8
' 8 dn the vositive intelliecire Cleld.
; .
} ; .
o In Fact, the resotution of the bona fides problen is
i a ouch smaller aspect of thosa two problems hu: the existence
‘ . .
i . .
1 p of the committee with seme hnewledge of the problem of

- | counter-intellicence maties th emesible to have a Forum at

the National Security Council leval to address it.

Mr, Kirbow. What abuse that has been broucht un in the

“ i mast either in the presse or wseisakions about A cunmmithee is
iH : oan : .
oF this aimed, at?
H
U ; ce OO .
vey i Yas there heen abuses that we have documented or

11 ft repartad that indicate that this has violated ‘the constieugional
3

wed oriahes of anybody. ineludtut these foretaners for this i

re nurnose?

We mush ha aimina this ak some thine other than just
hind of pulling if out ofthe ate?

Mr... Aaron. Lthink ie really comes more in the cateJory
of cuastionable practices and To owish - had the domestic
| fallow here but it's rently 2 emestion nF, for example. when:

you're in the nrocess of trying te recruit foreian assets

ag oar aven Amaricans En nerForn Forekqn intelligence missions

o, | where vou may heaqin collecting information on Mnericans for the
HO ouraases of assessina whether they are helnful to vou in
; mA , annroachine the particular pereen or Ghether the sould be
Oy} a dena pecess agent ov vhotiiew cea dobh conduck gome other
i
oy | ttinds of surveddlanes: ve sufeanard. of think.
rs] ‘* 4 \

I:
_t

HW 50955 DoclId:32423509 Page 87

ey

‘insuring that that. doean'h take rlace and 8. giving them help

that they can sav no, tiving them a place to go if pressures

apy . a a 1 4
t
fo Aonth think we're reali: necosearibe elosing the harn door
ho some enormous abuse. |
Mr. “Kirhow. I hac never heard of one in that area,
Mr. Aaron. I think by and Larce the FRD's quite clear.

in ther words, when we wenk throndgh the CHAOS and some of
these other programs that cere aiestionable. there were Some
cases in which some of the ranartina that took place as a resul
of the Foreian resources ais ision aot inks tha Cnos nak.

Mut the foreian resourcart diviaten mannaed te gkaw clear of

in qenaral and resisted in fark the effert on the part. of the

CHAOS team to ao ouk and actively recruit in this area on,
: I > 4
a cfandastine hasis. : i :

This is really sork of more in the catedary of Ae

such as the Huston Plan tyne cressures are brouqht to bear,
Senator Huddleston. Yall. there ars several places in
our renort findinas. nevaral ones indicated in the testimony
wa'ye taken that the atterndy Ceoneral enaht to review and |
recommend.

And Thin wondering wlethes or net rather than tuck spottinde |

« t
ai

it at these various nlaces. ehbether we couldn't make a ceneral

recempendakion., Wetve already tok the Attorney “arers) on the

Coammithea and that he reste. 8S nok allo mraction? bub sk least

whakevep mrackiees, bie sane dandcaqe wa were (uel bei ving abou

TIP SECRET

cy rn RL

HW 50955 Docld: 32423509 Page 88

|
i ; ; : .
' : For this varadqraph, that be review and that he advige the
i 7 . 2 . .
o | President and the committos if in his oninion any of these
2 niactices violate the Coistitutional: rights of American. citizen
Po ,
“) jo ar anv other laws. |. ; _
i

Me. Kirbow. «IT vould feel much better about this since |

6 it hasr't been an apparent abuse but to see that go in the

‘; seneral recommendation that all of the activities of the
intolliaanes enmmun ite ha, we ateued by him or he’ cxamined in
whatever havo vou think in ahentd he dona for that curnose.

But it wanda qoam that it outs then to a canernh preventive
tive mechanism instead af being here kind of put in asainst the
rary, which aq we say annarent ly has hoan daiud it cronerly”
all’ alona and unot in vielatinon of the law.

We den'bt appear to be accusing them of it here. although

the Janduag?® Mav not ha onthe to specific.

Lé Mr. Aaron, To miaht dust sav that there is a further
yo renommendation that invelyes the Attorney Ceneral on nage 40,
us | which is numher 27 deaalind with bhe same committes, a different
jo jt asneck of it.
Loop :
i}
Nhat this does is th elaherates with the racommendation
: ; ; a i
; oo, : : . ; a : i
o) | misher 17. which establishes tho counter intelliqence committee |
} a _ ;
no and it deals with the tro cides of theee activities, On the |
. on nne hand itts anine te vresdiesy mreoram for oombbics forcign |
A} ' . mS
; . a .
aq intelideenca anlleation) slendeshine within the United States:
qd. : a °
be fo amdioan the akhoer hand ffs eda fo reevier the counkor intelli dne
ma . oon |
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; TO e Sm b
! ; EP PAUL . |
HW 50955 Docld:32423509 -Page 89 : 4

a perpen remain.

7 4+ ah ; 2
i] . .
i
i
ae
1 eeepame of the CEA and oot that ere canduched fineide bhe
| ; ; ;
Si tmited States both from ths standmoint of. their legality.
7 , Now I think it's oessikle to consolicala those recommend:
= oe
Poh tions so that we don't sav ib teice, and T also think it's

nossihle to take aut anv imetie tion hak these programs were
AI nok neces sarily conducted oroneriv in the mast.
nl mut T would hate to fort of just have; and my rersonal

feeling is that To would kate to have ep oaenercl kind of thing

ail that the 4ttornev Generel ouvert bo de this becayns he onght

10 || te do thia already. (And whak metre tryine to de is make some

reanmnendations thak are more snecifically tarasted on the,

wot
—_

LO | csubdeqkt matter that we have ond caiva him. in effect,
eneqifia charade,
Senator Huddleston. Sell. we are giving bam the

anecific charde of revinsine jb; which anrarentiv¢ he didn't

have before. “Now before when something ‘cane to his attention

he rertainiv had the resnans bibs fey to move on it if in his~

onintoan it was contrary to Constitutional ‘rights.

Mr. fharon. So fo s

me voulre discussing the Lask sentence!
still, .i8 that right. nok the review noint?-

Mr. Kirhow, ile orlutbhowllv assumes. as the cemnon law

wy
' ‘ . . 7 a : ’ - 4
ool dacs, that all cavernmnent officials in an official, rosition
are performing their duties rroneriy.
Sil Senakoar Hi dbatten, too gank keg beyond that. thourh.

"a
oan . :

Meo him ta dona whek trey ye Coline.

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ee eS

HW 50955: DocId: 32423509 Page 90°

HW 50955

gy

“thease hera, aither the true covert onmerations

Mr. Virhow. And Con vert ray ire should peutee th ain

tind of a general recommerdobion, then you talk about all of

the intelligence functiers having any possibility of affecting -

I really would like ty see that kird of requirement

-ylaeed on the Attorney Ceancral as ‘a qeneral requirement instead

i
the laws of the United Staten) - . _ ; !
i
of trying to just nick ovt little snecifics unless we have an
abuse canneated with it.
. . |
. : ‘ : poe ;
New in the domestic tech farce they hava svecific

abuses and thev maka snecifie recommendations of corrective

action. hit that doesn't arnfear to be the case in either of

Me. Aaron. oD miaht.anke ‘a sudtesktion alony. those: lines

4uet din terms of simplifving some of Ehis. [ft mi ghee na -possiblp

“tn take the first vart at the review section here, follow it

with the recommendation on the top-of 27 saving the domestic

this review and then follow that-with a “inird recomiendation

i
t
|
t
counter -intelliaence activities Oe the CIA would be subject to |
|
that the Atkorney Ceneral would be retired to advise the |

President and the oversiaht committee if he found any lrreqular)
ities in either cone of these orocrams.
it dees what vou want toa da uhich is’ to force the Atberney

ie

Ceperalta ahheantion boa

Me. Bayan, ALT riebt oo Gorkeb we torn Far a menent to

TOP SECRET

WARD FP BUL,

{

|

. . t

Senator Mathias. | think that’s more reasonable and .

|

!

\

i

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i

te

Docla: 32423509, -Page 91

reel L an ae rs oo 4 Oy
4 , ;
‘|
| . oo . .
Sl mber 27 because tt har ov beacheted rortien thak we might |
“ } cansiderabl do away with.
That's page 40.
v H ; Thea bracketed portion dave that the NSC would apnrove |
il : . - ;
. © | all eounter-intelligence activities of the CIA in the United.

MS

States and it spells out a kind of procedure there. .
vo Now the net effect of this kindof procedure really is

oO | te egtahlisn. that the PRT dt: witheut cuestior. Lo mean the

i ;
> i mynatiaqal offact. is that the Rl is without question the |

connter-intelliqenca agency and vou've toh to get the President

te anvrove anvthing that the CFA is animes to do in this 74

Flak’, And that is really ib inside che United Stakes, Thatie

tha net effect of this rarcdrenh,
tad. Now my own versontl view of this paragraph is that it's
-4 |) probably nok neecassarvy. “e heve the NSU committees, Tt is

16 4 sunposed to resolve the question of-where the FBI. lets off

roy ard the CIA heains and it is an NSC committe that can report

TA te the Preaddent if thev haya a disagreement.

‘te. diGenava. Towenld aniv add thet I. smoke to John

aa | ELLIEF abouk this naracranh snd he aleo feels that it's
| unnecessary te do this. '> thinks thatcthis consolidation

ern weld be bad, first of all. aed it's unnecsasary second

Jiv. hMaijlar tet cman tie wkdan? |

TOPS SECRET

EO re PALL,

|
|

{

|

|

|

|

i

; |
rae _ Tim not sure — fecl ntranadly abont ft. |
; ; |
i

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\

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!

|

HW 50955 Docld:32423509. Page 92—

Mr. diGenova. Aren ho veu talking abaut the consolidations
i

° | Mr. Aaron. No, peire talking. about the paragranh that

. i just precedes it. I'm serry. this is the pracieted portion...

3 T'lL read it out.

= “he CIA should reeesive NEC anprova |. of all mounter-
| | |

«© | intellijqence activities within: the United States, This approva!

ad

-ghould be aiven hy the Predident and be suvnorted by. the

° recommendation of thea NSC countear-intellidenes committes,

Attorney meneral and tha Slrector of the FRE. All sueh

oroieets: should be reported annually to the oversiqht committee

Mr. Maxwell. Io oweuld move that we just strike that

eaten ieee en anne ee Ramee te mamta arene Bienen te me ee

4
i .
POW AS linhbecessarv,
| ;
Ih Co, ; 7
wad. -  Senatar Muddleston. That's a vote. “Nelli be right
: ; ;
lay beck,
ve i (A brief recess wag kalken)

pe fe Senator Huddleston. Mall, it's 3-30. , Let's see if

iy i We can resolve anvthing.

i) . Mr. ‘Aaron. Now tha pent vacommendation. which is number
rg i 21 anes fo the establishment of a special cammittse of the
aan - TOS | j

an | Committees an Toreian Tntellisence, which santa raview buman

“ye m i . ; ;

ou fl intellidence collechinn prabiens.
en | _ This is an arga whos there has been. some effort

; J
ae || dngtitutiovatts to bry to deh a handle on tito but it te

4 sentialiwo snolit shout ea widely in the aqevernmen' at yeu
en | ran da Fb. You have a Chae Penarkment thakt predacoc an Learnt
we] aS T :
FOP Oke
. Vedm F PALE .
L

HW 40955 Docld:32423509 Page 93.

of a Bore oe, oan we Ph . . 7

in wolume the most materist and according to CIA analysts

' . oO

4 . _ . .

° | most of that information. 7 Jarae proportion-of that is
|

keved to their report an' vat ohviously a araat deal of

to clandestine collection is carried out by the CIA itself and
4 Wy 2 a = . . 20 ‘ e ee a ,
S i the military services account For a siqnificant amount. of
e collection, some of which is extremely imnortant in countries
' ae ; .
’ with militsorv governments.
| ; . : :
A | The issue then hecomes whether. thera chouldnit be a
\ .
2 | partienlay mechanism to deal vith it and the proposal here is.

vey to create a subscommittes of fhe CFL fer that purpose, or a

a

snecial enmmittee of thea crr. And the reason for that is to

State's desianee and representatives of tha Sacretary of State

and.it would e a committes exsentially of the ClA. the Department

|

1

pm | oak in the chair the Denartweark of Stvte or the Secretary of
| |

of State and. the Napartmant of Nefense trying to bring some

ne

focus into those proarams and making some choices and so forth.
I might have Bill Rader sneak to it. t think the

recammendation originates with him.

10 Mr. Bader. This recermandation iscnart of kwa hasic |
99 |) recommendations that deal with the ovesticn of human intelligente
oa | collection. - St |

. ‘ . : : - : . .

. e . 7 7 , te . } .
First 3s the question of the arnroval mechanism. As you/l
rales | eee whan ve cet into the lather nark of -bhe nancy, ane of

o4.j) these very stranc reermpendationgs that va chavea us the committee,

' a : : tae :
en lo oar da heins offered te tha committee as on moageibta receamendat thn
TOP SECRET | |
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C0) be ae ef ss |
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HW 50955 DocTd:32423509 Page 94

a)

TaN

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HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 95

‘deal with covert action projects.

af human collection he?

and bring it together under the chairmanshin of tha Becretary

cons © ee a

ie that human collection »untecta would. ao fo the operations
advisory group for approve). that is. for operational approval
As vou know from our testimony these kinds of projects

ao nat go to the 40 Committes tyre ordaniszations where they.

So on the one hand “etre hovina to. deal with the questio
of anerational approval. In this narticular subcommittee we
aq to the muegtion nt everas ! manacement and Aireation of
tasking, what should we be aging. chat shonled the inited states
he Anning in the human callection field? where should we be
in x number of years? Nhat should the principal objectives

And in this wav ma hone bo brine the divercity that now

exists in fhe community from the CIA to the mititery scrvices

of State who would helo nrovide this kind of overall direction
and management quidance.

Tt is not ancimportant elshoration of the committee on

“4
. . 1
Foreian intelliaence. Tt should be thare in any avenk because
“it's a manadement problem. “his dives it Focus, this cives
the Secratary of State the chairmanshin of. a committes and T
think nromerly so. that devls with this larder nroblem of
whither honan intellictnes collection.
Ste Mawwnd). thie apetenr here whether Lbs cheived |
hyo g renresentativa of tha Seorebervy of Shake and the uch and |

i

TOR SECRET

WATER OAR UE

Wa 8 ae leg Bra

92

-I don't know what the erotocol is but is it likely that

Secrebary of Defense arn ronectod to abtem! or whathear they're |

i
{
i
f
i
7 all sunposed to be desiqnest.
|
{

the Secretary ‘of Defense would attend if: it, were a desiqnee. |.

t

| ; .
5 Ht of the Secretary of Stake? : : , |
. oe
a | “Mr. Miller. Sometinas. anre.

i :
ral Mr. Bader. They certainly did on. these other committees.
8 Bub whak would vou pronose? [-

a oo . |
2 | Mr, diGenova. The laranade is a Little unclear. |
Tal Mr. Bader. Perhans it should say that the Secretary of

VW State is chairman and he nrerimably then could desiqnate whomevdr

' . . I
po | he noleased. ne |
| 7 |
VR Mr. Kirhow. As a mather of practicalitv. if the |
i . a . : . : }
14 i Seeretarv of State doesn't shear ur and the Seerebiry of |
. Nefenge ig there. who's aning to chair the meeting? -
7 — | —— |
16 | Mr. Aaron, As amatter of vracticality if the Secretary
y> | of State doesn't show un, the Secretary of Defense won't be |
| ;
Ww | there,
: _ ;
va | Me. Kirbow. And we cliaresa down because heals naver.
an | adaing to ao to this kind ef meeting where he takes um khe >
ny day to day onerations,-
‘90 Aren't von orealles tolking here. don't von leave the
a3 | Vanquade eo vadue that vay frill ote imply that vhvb vou vant it

e4 da. vauleuw, of he peldadan sad once the des to daw. ua need one moi

br | aden in Ama@terdam and bea mona dr Rerunce la?
rey * 7,
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HW 50955 Doold:32423509:. Page 96

‘ : z 3 Ar Lage Set 4% e Q ; 3

|! ‘

it

i ; ;

" . : . . . . :
Poe Mr. Baron. Thatcis ast esbot owe wank ba ‘convey and so

“ vow are correct.

My, Kirbow. They shovld review the .rolicies and goals

and requirements. really.

ofp Mr. AiGenova. low atouk noliey at the end of the first

7 Mr. Aaron. Human intelligence collection volicv.

Ganator Huddleston. nl oliminake th park about size.

a

6h |) sentence? | a, ,

Mr, Rader. Paviei: andl rake recommendations with regard |-

bo nalicies and. nriorities. and then chene’s a misnrint here.
‘don't need American (15. clandestine.

Mr, irbew. Dewn bhrondh the -erd, the-teo words. human
eallection hofere the last. cankence, vet sre inke ind of a
a! arent deal of detail ehorvkt whe k they're surposed LO consider. a

wherese jf vau said they theould considar the rolicies of human

ell intellicence. human collection and the trade-offs between

oa eavert and overt collection snd the sorts of things vou have

hreaucht to.a-committeer. a coneideration of this nreblem which

thay have never taken before.

fr. Bader. JT thinul os comld are the word policy here

D0)
am and policies and we will undertlina that. . :
, .

ne | ‘Recemmend the cateal tichreent of a snecial committee of

cee too bhe OTT be rewdew ald Foerstenm teunan intbeliteeanc collection

Than aA seb rae dD omate voeommendakions wih cedar

mob debe”

taocthe rrdorthiog art stot os mal fi

JOP SECRET.

Pro. PRU

> homan colin ieic
|
i

HW 50955 DocTd:32493509' Page 97

anerations and choices betecen ovrerk and clandestine heman

collection. - _ oo
Mr, Kirbow., And vr. chairman, withovt ‘oing back and’
|

helaboring one of the other recommendations, I think ‘that the

‘a task to a committee to do a creat deal more detail because.
even on this domestic counter intelligence activities my

earlier recommendation was (oat by statuke the nolicies governing

|
i
5 | statt should do that in each inetance vhara we mav have given
|
|
i
|
|

You: don't wank them te consider tha dav to day operation

LT clontt believe.

a

Mr. Aaron. But 1 dao think tha* we shouldn't lose sight

in fl af tha fact that we are intereshad particularly iv the latter |

14] ease and I think in this case that you're interested tn the
. . , . . ;
‘on i proaram,
, . . . i
; - ; 7
rea Tomean you just don'h vant to say it will be the policy |
oan 1 nf the.u.S. to do some or it would be the policy ~- I mean
1 | vou really want to have an ennertunity in @ management sense to
\ ; _ a : 2
ia i) leak at the overall nroqram ~~ is the nroedram achiavinn what
ay | it's supposed to achieve, is the scale of the proqram here |
on ae onposed to there in the right halance to refleck our
i oe | . |
aD | crtorities? . . . ;
nn | “. Tn other words oT think that -~
oy Ha Miljer Teia nok a rubher tarp, youtre caving.
ne |
On My. Anron, Tha ta riehb ard dh dent duet ee coal with
‘ . , . , os j
oer ge se a] Be . : :
OP SECRET ode
: (

SU ARN |

HW 50955 . DocId: 32423509 ° Page 98

f
7

So seam on paner. Lt tries &) cet ak the nrehlem af what are the
| : a ; oo
2 i wmeograms and are they dotursr thetr job?
i oO

“ / Mr diGenova. Who Aq they make the recommendations to?-

“phe CFI?

oo

Mr. Aaron. Yes. or tha Prasidenk.

Mr. Maxwell. One rveark in connection with --~

wl

Mr. dicenova. tet's make that clear. Tt just says
make. racommendations.

Mr, Maxwell. tn Mill's fix. te snentfv. [ think it was

intended that  dtts all hian intelligence collection abroad. ;

i
}
i
'
Mr. Aaron.. Yes. that's riaht. ; : |

All right. perhans we can do ov ta the next recomendati fir,
Lo . I

Naw this is bracketed. I think it might he better first before

we take un the bracket Jet's take up what is net oracketed

i]
H
cand just indicate that this is in effect hartatory., if you will.

Tt uraes the oversicht canni ttee to examine the question of
; : : :

44 clandestine collection te ensure that it's really focused on,

things that peed clandestine collection that are of high

ny

ortoritv, net only the hiahest. hut certainly degerve that kind

nF risk and effort and prenms in which clsendestine collection

are the anlvy means available. aa as te enrbasiza something of

a.
ne the extraordinary nature of esnionage. | .
as | Mos heyond thak there’ s the rerormendaticn that the |
_ / . . . . 7 a
, i : : fovgs 2a yay bea owildkary services pnd tha i
ai i ctandestine eérvices bile fhe wilikary services |
rr | | 7
agi @predetn services, ba siiviceh toa nannewer cedhing,
os foredan service, be s |

TOP SECRET

wore PA

i
‘

HW 50955 DocId:32423509..Page 99 ~

sp

Ve

ao

6

Tothink this woul sot soecagt that that eollin: bela

publie fiqure but that th- Concress establish a manpower ceilinc

fer that, just as it. has there other services that serve in the

field of national security.

Now I know Charley fins soma reservations about that.

Mr. Kirbow.. Yes. “hut te put it in the proner context —

and I didn't bring it un at that noint, nor did Elliot, —

!

if vou look at the bottom of vase 32, we in cur findings. section

discuss a roint on the fack that wa dan't “now whether the

at

)size of the clandestine sarvice ia the riqhk size,

We also indicate that over the past decade the aize has

haen reduced sianificantiv, rertionularty in’ the field.

Then ve core over hers ond racommend that thera be a
. wf

menrower ceiling for the clandestine sarvires anly of the

STA. Today there ig a buitaet cotling-on the numher of

neople in the CIA that is lane vorned by the anount of maney that .

they get and the amount off money that thav nuk forward to

support that. kind complement. -

T obtected to kind nf thea finontiod deen precass of aqoing

i

into a seament-of an arcan amt Limiting its mannower because

if we hada ervetal ball. we contd do that very carafully and
mroverly, C think. But f cant see inte the future and tea

|

veare from now we may nord

TOP SECRET

WP er CP AE

RW 50955. DocId: 32423509 Page 100

fEhe Vargagt clandastin: service walve
er bad becauea of the nrabtoas that eanld eanfrenkt the ngtton.

and fo Phin that einea t& da careafrlly gsontrallad be tha Congres

{
:
|
|
|


epenhe aR, i — BAe CORAL ge HS fl os oni | -

' through its hudaet -levets and rmannower. Levels, let's lek the
agency decide how many peonia it takes to run a seament of its

” l ovn organization.

| -_ Mr. Inderfurth. A very snecial. seqment. though.
. . . . . . ; : a . . .

& . Mr. Kirbow. Well. snectial only berause we have concerne

.S tt ourselvas. with the abuse acnects of it under the assassination’

7 | tyne thing. Of more concern to us should he the fact that the

8 jp analytical section out thers: probably needs ctrenqthening

eS = ae

] | instead of werryinda about ceralating the size af the clandestine

io

service,

7 Mr. Inderfurth. Well. thak comes up later as well. -

oe

Mr. Kirbow. Ne von think that size in anv wav contribvt

VR to the nlot acainst Castro or some of these other neonle?

io nea

ut

“V4 My. Inderfurth. To think it has in covert action through

oh | Satin America.

| Mr. Bader. Mr. Chairman, L would support Mr. Kirbow on
| - , .
| this one.
. 1

Le My own view is unlese vou're aoind to go to the full

19 | extent of addressing the «mestion of establishing mannover

| ceilings throuqdhont the Central Intelliqence Adency, to single

ot one Airectorake. at this roint deesn't really wake much

| : . 7 Se - ‘
bo | sense to me, thondh Tounderstand the mrincinle behind it.

! Sanotor Huddleston. “eld. t do too, T think we can make

|

Ent ano b ota

a Flat chatamant oak vor eavdd saat tae. Bid that thers may

lobe a radnk semevhere up thers have ad which is a very canqearous

io FQR SECRET

| : . INO TRS

HY 50955 . DocTd: 32423509. Page 101

© i enecif

silhuak

ion.

ic size has yet becn shown to he
could sav that there oudkt to

I think the rest of

But T don't tid:

AX) chase pe
have

Link ve

he a speci

that

hole continuously examined.

ne

Q rime.

an

6 Senator Mathias.
| adiust,

an | Mr. Aaron.

ras bart robkher to sav.

vs ta tell me ehat that

HW 50955 Docld:32423509.

in ether

conkre.

Mr,

assumes that that kind -of

the committee could make a,

Mr.

seme oroblem.
veel: which would racuire
aervices.

“Now the point of it. is to sive really.

handle on the clandestine

difference.

Page 102.

diGenova.
Aaron. It nrannascs

agencies where one

the military

T mean ther

or from time ta tins

The

The

11 | nurvose of having a mannovwer ceiling as

b
t

ery td
Tov

adjust?

GP SECRET

Sep PAU”

datermined

50 detrimental

fic level.

recomnendatien
that kind of

cowl’ araua tha

mtaht have

ahouwt sayinae

ry ;

asink ta not just
hare bbe hag) | op
cr 3 Ptoaee 7 FO Imow.

ak the avpronviate

an emercencs

snacest that the oversicht committee put in its

eervices number. because

estab

te gat hidher Limit
sven agh the Naenes

thev

‘a review.

that

TY”

and we

paraaraph certainly ought to.

recond mart of that paragraph really

review would go on and if necessary,

me

bk vou vould have the
next.

PR SnArTt9g1s expansi, on of midi Lary

simealy to give or

arsenal of

ls over the clandestine activities that the CIA.

it

Lish

pberingk

nyt their money elsewhere.

ve bl

some

makes a.

and annually

be

r
|
|
of
|
|
|

8

~

© 80

PP]

Oo

Nh

|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
a

.

military

BS 6 Ask yw eR ES A 9

under their authorized steondhh.

Mr. Inderfurth, rasthar alternative is to say should
consider establishing a nannower ceiling.

Mr, Kirhow. Could T make the naink that. oversiaht
of any agency necessarily entails locking .at the number of

neople it has every year - harausa vou have to datermine how

much monev they've got to sunnort and they have to come tell.

Fhoat.

L&E pre're aqoina to have can oversiaht. cammit kee, that is

@

one of the funetions that it vcerforme. ~ le do ik with Our

theam-all over in. that they can’b put all-the Navy neonle in

dagbrovers.
Sannctor Yuddleston. That's risdht. hot Tieomn't think

aancexactly’ equate clandectine creration. with other tyres of

‘agency onerations.

T think thare's a differenea here in the potential

dmract. ‘Th's a secret oneration.

Mr. Aaron. “Should consider establishing?
enator Huddleston, .f think fhat tt outht to. follow
the naracrank. Leave the oarsarach as if was and sayvothe

cemmittee should also consider the advisability of establishi

3 meannover ertiling,

Sepaktar Hatidne.  Addontoahle esd line.

bye 0 Maarten | Fossa boreal bie troy whak gaat oc ore tommaean

Tor SECRET

Wee op mR AL

Aw 50955 Docld:32493509 Page 103 -

services. but we dent tell then that we ean't put.

vou!

ina |

|
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7
a

A

dx!

ion

i
t
|
aI
|
|

oe Tr, er ac

/ |

iH . |

t

| :
1 tt - * . : . :
Poo teaser fap this commitbher toorcememend to another cammittes that
. { . . 7

;

2) mavbe they oudht to do semethire. but C aquass it's all right.

Mr. Aaron, I'm avvaidt we do that multe a bit.

a2

Me, Miller. We're just Javing out the aqenda.

fr , Mr. Kirbow. . Which is vot hindind on them,

7 ona of the nrovisions of the hill, as you know, is an agenda,

a ‘andacuany of thea items thats ve in that aeerd are subenmed in
i
& jp kode.

a Mr, Miller, In the Cnovernment Operations Committee
}
|
t
!

1) fl Ahedsions? Overall sizé of the intelliaensea community is pre}

re |ovay they rreeommended tk. and € think ‘hat'g a reasonable approath.
OO : ; |

| _ooMr. Aaron. Turning ta the question of the Acency itsert|

i ia || puaher 23. this again is net in the categery of shatutory

1 ‘ . -_ a . . : . . ,
% pranosals but in the catedcarvy of urdqing tha Aqapeyv to ensure
vo |} that the skills of intAalliaencs collection are the orimary

a

js i criteria for advancement within the clandestine arvicas,

Senator Mathias, Versus management?

oS

Me, Kirbow. Mr. Chadrman. on thtt ane [can conceive

ef nethifia that would da more harm to either side of this

©

cuestion than to-say to aman who wants tn devote his life and

ae
on jj wake accarcer in the clandestine servios rhak veo can’ ® det

|
‘
i
i
| .
1 oo oMe. Baron, Verane covert cnarctions,.
i
|
|

cei | erangted en beadag cond abotatocaulre camendeadd ke he oina.
aut < ” mrs

i ee eth a nn ce cee eee ee

Ho
a5 You a@eb mramated on hetan aoet ab this other agreer of at. and
| a TOP AEC ¥
po. TOP SECRE
| . 7 : : ; i . Sel oe ee

HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 104.

J wwf Log |
i
i
ij
tr .
PO" bhirk Lette: just totally cob of heenina with what vou want. Ie
a vou want a qnod clandestine osaration,. vou wank the best you! 1

o cen find, and I think thet he should aet the same amount of

1 | eredit for being good at.vwhatever he's assianed to as heing in”

|

| this other intelligence Iusiness, |
|

i}

i

1

Bie Me. Aaron. The ink liieence business, of course, is

7 their. primary mission.

gS ‘ Mr. Kirbew. Not if t.a’s sa clandestine onerator. ‘That! |
7 Oo i

: . . . i

2 | hie nrimany business and he doean't heyve anv choice over whathe a.
. : : . . 4

Lo | oer nat he sets assiqned when he anes In out there ag ; |
ee a |

17 | a junior executive to the clandestine side of the day to day if

1.2 Ht oneration. ; 3

Senator tuddleaton. What does this address?

Mr. Raron, This addresses the prohlem of the clandestine

{

i

eollects intelligence. But it is in the nature of, or at least

j

}

|

i

|

i
| serviee which qoes to the geveral thins. Primarily it
“| : ; ; oe

I.

the past history of tha Avanev, which Bill can sneak more

t .

|

f

uu
me

direc ely to than I. that the covert onerations neonle vet the

19 | bekter advancement. Thia din mart huilt into the system in

on | that vou can measure the offeck ef the covert amtion oneration

oI eactar than this eandloss affort to recruit @ qood aqent many

‘oo || times which will fall throwdh throuqh no fault of the agent

on |. birself.

i
| .

Furkhermore . aererk astion onerctives sdeniy come to

attention segder thar somabady whole a cased agent

TO a SRCRET

iv ope OP RU

|

as |
7
:
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WW 50955 BDocld:324273509 Page 105

ub ‘ wa kG + es

handler but wha is reall oseraking of fF in a very cecura and
ramote environment.
mo So in an effort te trv to sugqaest thak they make a

loi raal effort to compensate for hat we have found in this area,

this particular thing is destanad to urce them to do their
hest te try to overcoma tht oroablem.
Now we wanted ta mit it in a wav that was not pejorative

and that did not exaluda the advaneement of ¢ ood covert operators.

T&svon wank ta keen covert cnoerations - T ayrreea with Charley. .

|
|
; ;
uo | sen have ta have qed eres and ventve cok to reward them,
1
|

t don't think thak this narticnlar recommendation which.

ic to the Aqeney and not ta statute does vhat narhans Vharjey

Faers it would doa. Tt simmts urdes that thev saive the proner |
i

o>

wedehk tq what for the clandestine services is their mcimaryv

|
1
a . |
miasion, :

Mr. Bader. The nroblem of it is we're nok after this

liv and perhaps it's a lancunae problem. We're not trying

{
i

VA to suqaast here that the intelligence collectors in the career
L catkers should be favored over the orerster, What wo vere

amt
elt

after really was that v2 have noticed over the vears and in

cn the rend?A thak the intollisaerce onersteor has tendad fo move

ee | alondq much faster.

oz} What he has dane. hig creiecke ara very codoaklis visible

ghite intetliacne: cellestion can ba semething that runs over

|
i!
as } weare and itis hard ce tir tn the tremchas, And do think fhe
| .
FOP SECRET
TOD SECRE
i _ : , . vom nr rut
Sy 7
in | , Myr. KirBow. E'm saree. TT dan'’h helieva that that's
H 7 7 . .
Wy. . . .
; . ' lis J« { i hi Jyar the ua
Sy the case. What Tim really saving Is. this. Ovar the vears
~2 i From ahout 1947 on throwdh ‘the ‘61s. elandastine amerakions =
as i . . . . . . .
yo iowere a wav of life in the Cia, whether it ia in favor today
| _ : .
12 7 or not is meebably on the sida of no. it's not oin faver at

ey | the CIA hecause there ara onty 165 varsue some 59 ar £90,

Sanator Hnddlestan.° T really fon'h sea that ar being

Ac to gan this itis nek a cmasttion of whatier wo itke

i
7

fame bie oesgkion

ol aryplorb tyres areyal Pespyes ay pie . v kis foie

|
1

ap on
|

en || iq ocwbabher or not thos: dadtoiduala wha semre are cohen wanda.
BI chen |

. TOP SECRET

yon 7 RL

q

“HW 50955 ° Docld: 32423509 Page 106

7 uo. re Seen cae
"
i ,
hp a
oH pyaferantial treatment cet odvancement within the Agency.
yf . . :
2 i Is that what wetre Ervin to get to here?
St > Mr. Kirbow. They sav it’s within the clandestine servic
| ; : tae
1 | thak the covert onerator cots more advancement within the
' : . a, ,
5h 4 elandestine services side of the house then the other people,
Aj and JT don't think our reeerd supports that.
? | It may be that vou have found more of the Ai tors
8 a heing from the covert side of the house hak ‘hat is. unt what the
1 . ,
Qf attack is here.
| Sanater Wuddleaton, Can't we may that owithin the:
i . : . :

clandestina services our

sacktiien in

-aovert have advanoed

Mr. Vader.’ Yes. if think

the clandestine S cet,

within

a :
aa yarsy
ii

n

LF; Ganekor tnddleaste Y And
re the Agency anaht to ens nye that.
Vt | he oiven the onrortunity haced o
if :
1a Mr. Aaron. That's the th
ta; exnteass here. :
i
ort Mr. Kirbow. Mr. Chairman
er} S@nator Tower on this ore hacaus

aunnorts fhat.

ea {the Commi thes

on. Mr. diGenayva. ling about

aan Intelliqauce shawl ensure thik
aa . ao

ae | eatlaction ara qiven const omnsi
i : ' .

TOP SE

Pe De
j . : :
_ . yen

HY 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 107

Aneurdrow

1 the Committea

indicates that those in the

areat rc numhers more’ raoidgy?

the record is clear on that

believes that .

emnloyees, whatever side;

atl
n their actual skills.

rust of what we're trying to

. EL would Like to reserve for

6 t donth think the record of

jfouwe gaid this - the ventral

Intel lioence

oration «as wv aribtarion for

CRET

a

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1
[
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HW 50955

4

or

eotlection are qiven inn

to acauire information. and T think thak chat we're try

oe

lus

arvancement within the shades tne serviass .

- Ms. Culbreth, «Tian ver ot back in to what we struck
ove from the original. which was as ‘onposed to covert action
onerations._ We deletes that Fran the eariier thing to try
itn avoid ae :

Mr. diGenova. I'm trying. to just naraphrase what the.

Senator just said, what they said was the thrust, which was

that intelliaence collection: canabilities arr cut onan equal
Fantinag with onerations..:

Me. Aaron. What ft) think dea hether wav to pub the:

neint, and it's alond tha. some line, micht he to simoly say,

to urce that the Agency & siiills of intel licénce

bance in advancement within the
clandestina serviess of that mission For the clanilastine
. : : 1
services. if ven will.
In other words, the orca at bulk of the people in the
clandestine services, aniCharley rointed ent, are in fact
intelliqence collectors. Ther are case of Fi ers For trying

i

ng to

+

arrive at here is that ih shew)a hea ativan an imnortance. that |

this skill should be aden an immertanae and siantfirencde in

FE:

nrenortion to thea sian tense haat tho Anency accords ta that

wmarkianlar task, |
4 i
Beary For tot: i aa i Web mae Loare crn bry Br ke oe k at haved
ct dh WON D2? mee AT Pare
Aya we mebhine ab the sack thak wea ant seme ster who. hacaus.

JOe SECRET.

sWaAbgg 7 OTR we

Docld: 32423509 Page 106

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ro : . . :
pauf their clandestine skit is enn om
i ;
i : .
wrest of them, that they = ' ahead
i .
* Horchlem. You see it in the armed
‘ it rememher Commander Buckinoy whe.
“oy heakoman. and he just happened to
°
S| aft Corriqedar, ended un av Mtniral,
“4 ; Now T think thera ts such
is and daring wdounusnal aid that
Po bey Ae fleet, that From hevde fee antuiret
ry OMe. Frren. Re Toes. a Int
\ . : : :
aa nature of things and the vececmencdation
| ok at an resard ae trednd. be commen.

DO fh arene yicrht tro tty | "
ir . ‘
ol Caverboaettion dravca attention to the oar
t : , :
Lf feeatlection, vow da not cre nhbention ta vaurs
Les , Mr. Kirhow. There is a mere hasia rro
Lv Rererweny 2 T AIA anend somecanrnsaiderable time in
I .
ro The eres tient negnia. the meenta who burn ont
| . oe . .
! st in the Aqeneys and dak the omieh prometians are
ao promoted heeasuse thay art anvert onerskors ala
st Mork nf the vary fine vennle that thay
2 | Naa in the esrty vears vance) te he otha
cof tne whe’ being a smc ond thavo wg ll end

. j
Watardio af tha aed roads.

i

rity ye

shealdry tt thoy tin

TOR

Tpvar

50955 Docld:32423509. Page 109

vay?

the

and I think

services

bea enlliad

ithe

hes

"at.

of

because

apie:

the

Se

SECRET

‘he

an

mk let

sips h

Faye te

May

availalte

WAS

ho

he.

nr

a. bie

take

verry

POG

smotions.

that that is a

all the time,

PT

MacArthur,

a human resnonse to courage

hard

in reeeenition.

nrahiam

opr

thak

era

ale,

hhlem to th

tha

ke
not
ne.

hace.

husiness

Wyre

.

jad

hor.

s bust

Ware

Yr

he

LR

“landestine

is at the

ness.

he excellent

asarily

that thev

«

rause

|
7

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7
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and To owenlt comment. orthed!

:
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Vecision.

Fenator Huddleston Vell, there are too many elements

hore involved in who oquc'® fo he promoted... There are too many

haan, elements and somahnacdy beg bo male a decision.
Foqust don't know hor we can adune them on thet. TI
chink ¥ would strike that. f vould favor taking it out,
Mr. Aaron. Okay. vambor 24 anes to the nueastion. of

the relationship between FR doneastic contac’ divisio: and

the directorate of anerations or what is ctherwise known as
tne clandestine seryiess.
In 1972. T believe if was. when Mr. Schlesinaer weng
- - ‘$

to the CTA. this direchorateo whose primary ragnensibi lity is

Far oollecting overt inte llicenes hut whieh has a supmort

function fer the clandestine calleation or the clandestine

’ i
{
|

reeruitmenk of aqcents within the United Grates cad then moved

into the directorate of oanerations.

The Committea!ls on hearings and testimony on thea
fo,
subject indicated that a reasonably larce nartion of their

activity and their contacts ara used for the initial stages
of trvingd to snot, asserts. snd yet peonle close to forsign
{ntelliadence adent renetenank targete,

e

Now there are. ane coneern about that is that unlike

i
the foreian resqurese Uirrtstey whase mission igs <‘learly clandest
. I .
; \
; . i . So, .
tha clwssph ier men boote Wietieateas mererpmachoe Fhetromemmte oan an
tho ceosrk ie ae i : AL e obthetr ; moa
: !
grep basta, Gb saue, noe Pon neh a ery, flim pet cloiea anv
‘4 ° . ca nv
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Oar UE |

HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 110 :

ir

ee ce coe cere _ nie |

- Semvdnd. Toam an overk src person. ob hbelenn to the CTA.

tr would like you to tell sc ahont your tre vels or advise us

i

this relationship is completeciv above hoard in every wav.

&

rT
'
hoo, —_
4 | oy some subject or what ave vou on an open basis, and that
| ;
if
ji And vou donth have to worry that this relationship is
; _

i) qlaning to he used for anvecvert nurpose.

\ ! . ,
Houever, it turns:cout that some of those relationships

Pp j-are or do or are hrought /ko.cvolee into sun rt for clandestine

activitiey in which information is aathared on neorle who might.

doo he helnful in all the waye and f think we had a pretky dood

: t. . . : —_ : :
i? qf attendance at. that sessian when this was. discussed, _ #

ie So the question cames down to this -- this blurringsof

the line hateeen an organization as toa whether it: mission reall

- |
aS overt ar not in every |=

‘eaneck. sheuld this be a concern to.

the Committee? And LE 4k de nf eencern to the Cermithee, should
7 | .

bey A take some steps to trv te reinforce its overt character

po fe and genarate it out from. the clandestine services where it is |

if
' -
rp | naw Ineaked and where at least a few of the neanle in the DCD
a :
re! have expressed some concern thak thev will now Fecome ropulated
po [with real clandestine ongraters and that they will roally sort
| ; —
ny of heceome another arm of that ernaninc réian.

ag | Now Rill. Bader world like to tell ta this noint. Tt

aa | formerly wag mart of the Jirecktorste of intolliv one ich js
{ . - - .
wy | the mere ceert ery ef the Boenec ko beet uieh orel ont tected
cy s . ,
es pb Unfoxrmnatian,

OP SECRET

wanes BAYEL

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WW50955 Doeld:32493509 Page 111:

cece Ee ? ee ee "Loe

{
i
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i

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uf
a

pas : Th other cqovernments this name function is dene. for

example, in Britain it's ‘one I the board of trade hecause a

lot of the information it technical, economic, or scientific

in nature, which is alsa true For the DCD. as a matter of

Pact,
‘And so the questior that is presented to the Committee

is do we want to leave the ncn where it is in the Director. of

Clandestine Operations? — Pa ves cant to have "he clandestine

service, tf you will. have » suasi-overt arm within the United

wa want to confine the clandestine activities to the cland&stin

rs sarvice and the overt activities ho some omrert oranisation,

i

be that hack in the directorate of intellinence ia the Agency

which does ovarate openly am a matter of course?

3

| |
la | or moved out to the State Yep artment ov some other erdanizatian
1 . .
|
\
|
t
|

7 Mr. Inderfurth, hat vould that mean in tarms of

|
; |
LO 4 States widely spread ouk theeudhout the United States? Would

numbers? Uow large is the neon

Mr. Aaron. T belteve Jhb is about 150 of 290,

Mr. Nader. Thare are 38 affices. , |

a4 Mr. Aaron. And they are about two ar three man offices.

G |

!
if
if
{
{
|
i
|
—_ _ : i
ot KR lnt of the personnel in the PCD are in fFack succunded ~ From

the military services or PeROA. You know there are different

i] . 7 . . . ° + 7
ay ji areas. of the eountry thak have differant kinds. san knee,
Tay t . .
eq poor aorienlture. fe ovannis “iF they’ ne interested in

a : ;
cr aarieulburs) inthe ieee wo Tatoo? bhege peappe come ok of

i ; . ,

_ YOR SECRET |

Weep PAUL . ° |

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HW 50955

nA

§

a)

29

ye

Oey,
Lat

‘least heretofore it does the ‘overt. collection function as a

Ee
?
a
Ls
#8
5

actrioulture. Zo mean ible = funny kind of mixture of neople.
The CIA sort of ces this in part as a service of

cummon concern to the intellicqence community and in part at

service to its own analysts.

This was particularly in the early days when we had

less access to information in the denied areas of the world.

‘Th was avery rich source o% information for us. It still is)

auite a aead and important an l econemical source, and it's

a ctond prearam, ‘The cmestien is how much it should t> involved

in clandestine support and if-vou want te find a way to +
,; encourage it, to. if vou will. amoharize ites overt mission®

over its cevert mission er de vou wank ta put it back into

some overt side of the Agenay or the covernment?

Mr, Maxwell. “Yo have. some very mixed Feelings about this
recommendation and the problem might be described better by
lookina at the flow of information Erom the end “point,

The PRMD now is involved in the recruitment of agents

|
for foreign intelligence catherina within the United Skat
A number of times they naed, and I think they have indicated |
to the Fommittee that tlie nead zome hele in determining. whether
they should qo to an indivianat and sav, can you intreluce
me to thie netential acens of influence inca eounbre. eon

ven inkreduce ma on the efodcob withork that blowing un dn

their Sacer

Fa ‘SECRET

WON PTE AAU

Doctld: 32423509 Page 113

2)

Mo: i Na BA Ge : oh

The question then fa hos ean they be nraovided wtth the

information that they need to allow them to make a recruitment

that the Committee mav find is valuable.

tt it is from the Ch. if has all the problems that

Navid articulated, and Toannrecitake these oroblems. The

auesticn the Committee har to face is where thev are aoing to

aet that information, whether Le should he for the UCD. whether

it’s located in Dbo. Fram fhe: omy, whether it’s lecated in the

ANT or frem the NN. ar lsaested jn the State Denartmant or

under State Denartmant cantret,

My own sense of thak is that the decision that vas ade

.bv Director Schlesingar inomosind ih fram the PPL to the DBO

did raise the potential of compromising the overt character,

hot it alse made the liaison which we find important more

‘Af ficient and easier to manace and potentially easier to

eentrol if both elements ars under the same set of guidelines
and reaulations which would aavern the pn as a whole 98 to
who mav he apnornachad. who may he need onerationally.

If itts put in another directorate or cataide. { think
there's a aiffionlty in that kind of contral and to think dtis

r

also, it? ohviously raises fhe anestion of whether the ern

Was aoinda to aat the information that it needed for a valuable

funebion of reeruiting feretonere while thev'ra in the tmited
State.

To RBG pr the Conn Fete manos any on sheep Of ume tay

“TOR SECRET |

weeny PAE

HW 50955 BDocld: 32423509 Page 114 -

a / Se ge MR : ‘ie |

foehink that the end nradauct bes ta he looker? at in the reeruitmen

"’ lof snies, and secondly weet bave to look at what kinds of

Jj) acsurances could be made th ony branch of the caovernment if
do ojovert collection is heind done as to whether that infermation
F | eeanld be used hv another brauch of the covernment. -

If DCD were -antirely cvert and a promise were made to.

1
|
% Mr. Bader that this would nevar be used for an operational
a |, euvpose or vou would naver ‘rs asted as a convtenting adult to
o aid in an orervakional nurreose, then theo end reeduction might well

VO be thakbvbhe FRn is goina-te be sending reonle ouk covertly

ya within the United States kn arvarthy ohtein information tay

aeterminea if they are aging toaomehe a cevert enmproach to ai’

Foyviqn sev, and £ think that £ have real hesitation about,

rather than the information betna available from consenting

individuals on an. omen bayside,

7 ; Me. Aaron. If Fo could add to that. L agree, I think
co

vane
re ne ee

ye | tre cuestion is if you'’re qeind to allow the conduct of

iq || recrudkments ho take place and veu're detnd to atlow informatio

to be collected on these rencle. gomehordy has te do-it and

on |) so you're not aoing to aveid anv of those cuestiens hy this.
oy The fssue sees te cant te whekher the neerle who will
4 ae . ‘

sof initially heain davelorim: that information will ne people

av fiwdth avert dueantive te been th within certain tounds or whethe

’ . y 1

BV ee wp Pots dneciyk de cn ety bon ork ab popeon Soopprepeesn

Soto that.

“3

| T thiak Unak is te de teow Pepyoos eibuetton in which “He

) 0 PS RCRET

oS ROU . .

HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 115 - | .

is

a wa Yow

Hen eon ia leaitimate Ly Tae mapbesh otth veadecios aml large.
nabers of neanle who oblereiar . if our other recommendations
ia here are accepted ans even sous of the internal regulations
of the CEA are written je Lee. people: woamdel be kind of off
beunds for onerational une.

“Mow the nen, hawewr yr. hecause Leas overt, is-allowed
to deal with these pean tle . and the qmestion.is. well. the
ipeentives to be serumalons in their activities, keeping them
everk and not trvind te une neople sor of for operational ,

eunnort and so forth, thé cuestion is veuled those ircentives

ke hetter ontside the PN or inside the oe or vould it make

a dif ference. ; . an 4

The second paink ia. smd this is « somewhe* different

regpk the POR is having an ineseasing mroklam. colby. frankly,

and we have had testimony from tie. Melson anc others. he's

having a problem because it fs associated with the Cin.

Now people area reluctant ko come rake with then because
OE aoncern ahout- being aganciated with Lhe CTA, The feeb that
thee actually do engage in onevational suenert deesn'' help
bhatt very mach,

And ose the aeakion fe Pf vow wealbiveo wank be oollest

eurloitation of the foreian tube llidence. nen foreinn

inkel}iaerea notentiol of fh: American pesele who are: olline

Mey M ab bre

te daaperabersarer y  chentitp

pydebo dae uk aes thie apes af cLandserhine wet te tos

JOP SECRET

Vole

HW 30955 DocId:32423509 Page 116


i daseneiated with if?
t . .
| . ;
2 | That is somewhat <crorate hut relevant.
3 Mr. Kirhow!) Mr. Chairmen, apparently they're not talking
a { : : :
4

e

3

Joval citizens are willing Foceiva te them.

29 offices. and all vou have to doa is look if unr

a CIA function there.

Tor SECRET

ween PAUL

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htheb subqeeb os
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HY 50955 Docld: 32423509 Page 117

lhut voulre kalkina ahout calling it esemethina else

thedr telervhone number in the rublic telenhones fia each

Le | year or twa. Bub just te tall sbhont wevindg. it back

of reenrd that is net working meonertly rey or more

there. I dantt think welre in a mositien to decide

|

ae | decide that vou wank fo maya dtosnt of fhe CIA 7 ned
| penar tment af Stata. PF fhinbk the reared da bokabley
i

‘aAbant doina it with anv feunr pesnle or any different neople,

8 Tn discussing this vith Mr. Nelson. under whom it comes
i now. and with Mr. Proctor. undar ehom it previously came, .

yo | - . ;
Rolo thes An not distinavish anv of thea problems, that they are
(3 hevind any oroblans in maintaining centank with ever 100,000
American citizens who are bind of returnind travellers and’

that they are getting the tyes of information thet these a

Bi

These neorple advertire their address and prohebly nut
and sav that's

1 It is nrohably as overt as anvthina they do except

va i testifv on the ALLL. which has become very overt in the past

into a

ba | nlace where they dust moved it ent of on the lack of some kind.

rroperly
that. To.

into the

eogd on

ef thes

NY Se, getuNNiRe ene we


m : eo whiny

Todnsk hate to sec es recopmmeped hakineg aveay fom one

elace and puttinag Lt sary nhac else without-a record.

eee ne ae

Senator Nart. Can b we recommend that we put it back
jin intelliqence and the overadaht committees consider that. -
after it's created and 84 on,
Senator Huddleston. ‘liv was it taken euk of intelligence
‘Mr. Bader. It was a cuestion of consolidation af |
; collection in one Jirecterato. |
¥ou Bee. while the demeutie contrack -srrvice was under

the DDL. it was a collection service. Lk was in an enalytieal

breocb and. Schlesinger, ag I understand tt, feit that it wes . .

the tidy thing to do tn mak all collectors under the came eo
senator luddleston. cuart and covrrk?
tr, Bader, Yes. And fT think the’ inesues ocre ave been .

I had very litkle bo add ta them, ¢ think it is an
isene, 1 have a personal concern that we have vot taken the

responsible officials at any -length on thea record on- this

ntaces or disadvantades.

avestion of the relative ad

reary vel) articulated. . a : _ : |
rerience ig that it |

My own parsonal view with some en
seems tocme Jt would make a areat deal of sense for this .
. s : *, i . : , a . . a a ‘
-funetion to be under the PPI to smphasize and unciarlina its
cvertness and that the indisictuals who are in this particular

saryice ar nfEdce then weld. fine naturelle fre

‘ \

ey Mie Serenk hinds of meante os they ten

a

ila and tho wet Ihe y

FOP SECRET

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ron PNR

50955 Docld: 327473509 Page 116

peey fF ' ae78 en: or LLG |
i .
ti i
| 7 |
to Hite he before LO7L, 1972.
| .
tat { : A
| Senator Huddleston. ts there anv chance that anybody
;
: rota be denied the product of this investication if we changed
aA ae?
i . |
& | Mr. Bader. One of the things ve should hear in mind, |
& Mr. Cheirman, is that if. vou co down the road and talk. about
t . ‘
7 || these various reforms or chances in the ‘intellicence structure,
| - -
‘fo a that moving the DCT function and enhancina bis newers and then
2 | nerhans eyentually serarating: the Director of CIA From the
ro rer. that at this noint iho weunlda seem levdical for an overt
11 | sottection eide of an intelliaence aceney to bea with the >
ve fer. ‘
Ls . Rut that 3s down the road as well and nerhans vhat we
_ oo . .
{ Lo :
ht want to do with something Jike this is vou don’t understand

that noink?

7 Mr: Maxwell. No. f
Me. Kirbow. What bee's

side our

side out there without

aroup furnishes to them.

‘Mr. Pader,

-Mr, TF

|
|

LA all of this overt
J Maxee | 1 -

take the antire npr

and
me |
li
an | feanctar iy Abedhes
on aceonb omteht le both sceccrk
Tor

BW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 119

donth.

ne

meron

Down the,

Voy

Cleary bet

WT | PAL

really saving is that if you move

thea DCT leave the convert

2. Vou

fF tha gnemork Funetion. which this

road shen vou have a "ct

oman

that thea

we hovn a asitvation chara an

SECRET

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ui . ae i
1
a
io Mr. Rirhow. These cearetia out there are nok adaents.
i.
2 | These are emplovees, Ant most of them, by the way, are former

ei ployees. whey are retired CIA officers.

Senator Huddleston they are hot mixina the assiqnments?
an | _ Mr. Kixrhow. Ne. the. Foe examnte. LC don't mind puttins
“A | this on the record,

° We had a large international organization in the company.

8 J) Twas with Before J returns! to the Senate.  Uefore we departed

ye mould vat a briefine on the olace where we were going to
‘ . . : ‘ és

i
j
i
| l
|
[lind of safenuard against making defense mistakes, arl when we
— - achat \wnen |
| came back, they came and-ohad Lanech with vou and asked you fo

kind of reveal or when veu vere dealing with the director .

iz bot whatever it was in Sinuanocre, what was the situation? What.
141} was the atmosnohere? What's soing out there hecausa .cu were
. , .
i ina husiness atmosrnher® and rubbed elbows. and thev came and. !
va | mat with you and did this. %r occasionally you would stop -
to | by the San Francisco office and you'd do this.

“That's the business theee people are in. orincinally.

ya i Tan’t that correct?

we) - Senator Huddleston... tiace. do you have any thouckts on
my | this? ts

©

Senator Mathias. 7 con't think anvone has discussed |

ontion nurbher 2 while Live been siting bere, arl Dohavontt

yeord: ° ak

i
i
ip bean sitkhine here consisters ior Pub ts Shere any value ho
ortbine Ph ooukoand ccr tte Gk mia le Shakar o |
— 1% SECRET
j vo _

HW 50955 Docld: 32423509 Page 120

im

6

12,
Ts
na

vy
‘

duet to-be the Ao tL ts ndvneate, mre of tha values that
aceurs to me is to bring the State penartment in touch with

" | ; | |

ality. |

My. Kirbew. Well vou'Tl never aet me to tel) a member
of the Denartment of State rersonal business that I was conduct ip
For my company in Sinaapars hecause I don't think that it
would he -

That put ik persenal iy. L don't thin that T wondd

7
1
have bkrus; sad them with the ereorets of what my eeroany's operati ok

‘sare versus an intellicence eraanization. Wot an onen

oraanization like the Penartment of Stake. -
Mr. Aaron. The infersatlon ocltiecked by the Deo is:

fudbiy available te avery adcicy of the aevernmrant., [t's not

considered classified or ceeret or anvthind alse.

|

|
as

|

|

Mr. Kavrhow, These eck veu a lot af cnestiong.

no record on this and for us dusk to hanhazardlv make this

racommendation without our recernd --

i
Senator Hart. ‘the vorinsiral araument, Mac, is that eed £

The compromise Toincacted wae a
and that the  new-conmmithtes took at ertion 2. when it is in |
existence and has made a oreenrd,

Senater Unddlestoan Tim ineliresd to an with ovtion 1.

Tohave aocunstion. ge csava the Committees reaame onde pepe Rernandhe

agersdebt cammitbe > reese

Tew de thie cmdes ke works

TGP 4 SECRET

Arty PAUL

’ HW 50955 DocId: 32423505, Page 121

“i “tin. Aaron. I juet bthaeic thab dao deaftines the charter --

’

soy that the Committee recowmemis that it he removed ar moved

I
4

actually vou can just env vor recommend by statute or vou could '

aot back. and vou can Jeave ih te he MCL te dn it. | - re
i : :
f Senator MNuddlesten. stust recommend that if be done. :

“B Mr. Kirbow. May I resnectfully reserve .on that?

? | Mr, Aaron. All right. Now 25. wate qoing to set some

?

Sand 26 ab bho

fe testimony temerroy mornitrer op

o | setoelly do. and we will bare thet on khe record,

bo dp And 2?) will be moced un. as we have talked about it

[
t
t
Vi eorlier. And 26, then, was the order of thosiness. and that is |
pow tha rmronosal- that in froko ove ousth te coneider a medel rather H

Ls Qibhs the mritish. which Le bhak counter Luke Lliupnee by the
yo CTA and by o + fim-serry the euthoer ef this is met he oo = by

fotke counter dintelliqerce. bo the OTA. and the rer. be sonseli-

dated inte one organization sland the Lincs

Tooan svever Kean them ckral

5

Me, Tnderfurth. Fire. Phis would

Senator Muddlestor.:. Mhera wontd thab aganay he in the

vi
a
*

skrouctura?

Rr diGenova. e the madeb fowas actking at before

oe that the domestic tas forme an? John FALLf£ has some problems

a
oT
“f

ee |} with these raceommendatione th, qunk socotlaichbine rhis

moe F Phos. Us Coesnfe

on ett degen bo ote ortboare

ae,
He,
z
om;

ys

; *& a

Lar ad
amt

50955 Docld:32423509 Page 122

mo oie Tiller. Phator bescaeee he hasntt heard the
2 | recommendations that this be denn by athers., It's just an
liea to he considered,

boy “Mr. Kirhow: Hela verdad ik _iIo-reserve on this.

K | Mr. diGenova. Tim net cure that's

A | Mr. Inderfurth. "fell. the military intelligence services
? | nour he added to this Fit. CIA and militarv intellidance.

f | , Mr, Raven. TK voulr o-rotmer te corsolidate thah function.

Lhooudht te be consolidated wPh the war around.

Tag Mr. Miller. Thev'’re clichtilv differant achivities on

fi ithe nart of the military hecause they're involved in hase 4

Lp j pretection, So oo 2

yen Isn't that correct?

ba | , Mr. Snider. Well, that ecomter-esriconagde cueration

ee

ie [ovens their own nersoenne) corid-wite,
| Mr. Miller. But in ccmnection with bases’, that's their

A | Me. Snider. Not necessarily kased, but information, .
A { . . . . *
Noinilitarv infermation. As lana as you are consolidating that

1a

jy ii connection. | , a

funetion. T don't see ehy om shouldn't include the wilitary

or
nO
| . .
oy | services. thts dust a smelt pnink,
| ;

Soo to. Senator Hart. Mr. Chaarean, T certainly faver the
ov bconcenk that if there !s any che area cchere we ger aven a little

aa draana elememtel our cers Pn-okhe eaaunber-intellicense avers.

ond Aad Tam. aworea know. orroecd te further some} iestion of

“TOP SECRET

wc PAU

t

BW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 1235

4 “ ata ag HAR \
if ;
iH
\ oe aa
bo odoene hiding nlaces for reeoenstihi lity ar aeeountarbiiiby 0 Bart ;
Pt think creation of a seerrata unit here and consolidation |
\ jaould enhance accountability rather than mabe it more ene
+ ! . . .
: . : : . - 2 .
an We have found out in oir took at the Kennedy. assassinatin
| . . a
® and I. think in a number nF other instances, COTHTELPRG and so |
i . . : : ;
“A jen. there was duplication and overlap and abuse and poor: |
v nerformance and misnerfermance and ahout evervthing you can
o | ehink of aning on here bebe com othe FRE ant the GFN and mayne |
Q ayven the military. |
; : .
a So T think we have te look at semethindg anc nek just
ny a mandate on counter-inteolligence. T think this is a * soung |
(oO recammandation to make. . - |
t . . . . =
lea Mr, Miller. It doesn’t have to be into a new acency. .
a ae us :
14 q ER wav bea rejationshin that is lass than an vacency.
aA Nr. Aaron. Is tb khie concept here that khis oraanizat me
! | i | Lo
ig | wenld conduct all the eounter-intelligence activities abroad? |

sel Tomean in other words, the counter-intellicence functions that

ryt '
rat every station has to, inl effack, cominet, for exaAnp)e that |
|
|

49 establishes; perhaps nuts an agenk in a local securities service

to make sure thak local secured ty service is. coonesratina with
wa and Rot coonarating with the Soviets. 7

That is the counter -jnvteliigqgence action. Is that ‘someth nc

mo
wore

i danavtmantal mnauscear -dobel dissuce perottved:

os Mr Tirbow. 0 we a fat daa ahenth dyplieabiindg in mater

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| thie ordaniantion would do as well, or wrondd there he
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HW 50955 Docld:324293509, Page 124

ry

examination lead to clarification of role and ramove the 4

remove the words, during the next vear hacanse if they do

wos wg gh wee

mromortians. major asnast2 nf the PRT heeause they nse. their
acents for dual purposes - if he isn't out here law enforcing

on a Priday afternoon, then he's doina whatever else he's
malified to do in this field.

Mr. Miller. That's nart of. tha reason nerhans that

some of the abuses have occurred. .The qrev area becomes very

mucky indeed because ef the dual nature of the agent's activitie

wheraas the nursuit of Fore. anemies, and -athar than having

the hand-offe of the situation that we've had in the vast.

that consolidation mioht remove that erobtem and it wight upon

-

kinds of arev areas that eiated in the nast. Ent it's only
al cusaestion to Inok into mere thorouthly. mets nothing mere
than that and I think it has merit to ah least took into
it thorounh ly. |

Mr. diGenova. crhatis A spacific recommendation that the
nev oversiaht committees consider that auestion, | |

Mr. Kirbow. T wes inet reminded by nv colleanies that
that recommendation is cather Lunacuods. thay can de anything
or not do anvthina . |

To an think here aaunin. an ve suanested earlier va should

averythine that wea pan reeeunended. thay vent have time to

ye ke lench the woo thdpes see sadn. Ub clon? Fb wa aay that

thd

a

the oversinhk mommibte  cbecitd ae sider

a
7

aside. Yo think that
CRE

bon
weve 5G PAU

TOP SE T

ere cgterrarr enema

BW 50955. DocTd:32423509. Page i125

HW 50955

within .

al
. |
Povo tre now direeting anetier cenoittee ba do many thirers
a |? short werid of time arnt they mev have more important
rocommendations that they consider toe.
A “Me. Aaron. Now --

an . Senator Huddleston

& | te he more specific, but.
;
7 jowe can’t.

“The natural

aboukt

tha

tecommend itis a qcod

response can he. well, we

to took ab it.

Mir. Qaron. Well.

falking about some ideas

red ber

he sevtious
talking

yy | i think- the vay the Comnd

ig | tive leaqitimacy to the

jo bh ere iniaght well question and leok ab furth the:

g |} one mig ;

- commithee,

feb kK think that serk of falls in that game cabecte

fp Senator Iluddlesten, “aula it belo ahy: to sav
|
1 .

oy || because of the nature of obhic kind of aghivibyv or bre
4 |
an tat \

eq doit does lanl dteet& be sreci iis Peet phew

“des Bde.

' Pocla: 32423509 Page 126

fF rercunize

cuegkhior Le.
recommending t!
thing

siv considered, tr

ide

- tomould like For cur

is aging te be ta us as

Ite
°
“a

yeu for

Vu eb

thanc? . ancl our

hae

1 tt

den'k hknow. We dust think

UC think in some Cases we're

thak deserve a weasure of 1.

mean, For eramnle, we

thee came out it

aoand ite practicality er

with

recomnendations

thatithere are times when

prgteg ines

|
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!
|

nembers

No you
ayty

we ought
3

2

really
aitimacy

yeare

| eavliér ahout the net haing separated from the Agency.

rversight

rey

phat

» Taek

|
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'

toy “Mr. Kirbow. Senntes. the individuals. we con'h have any

: . 4
2 areat bia record that there wearea roque agents out there in the !

doing this. There wane roanna policies cown at the headquart

Now if vou have the san bind o£. rosue policy in a néw

5 agency, you! lL have the same end result.
. . . 1

| i
6 So it doesn' &£ accorelich anything for us to do this and [
" | point at the individuals hecnuse it was a orincinal.
a | Senatnr fluddlesten. £ didn't specifv individuals.

| .
2 | auet said it has hannened an? ib's the area where it, is |
: | : ; A
qe | Svemerkibie. a
| Mr. Kirhow. Certainly tha potential for abuse is gkeat
aa tin this Area and it should be studied carefully and mcobably |
pa j uraentiy by the Subcommittee. To mean the new oversiqhk

| _ ;
ia || committee. -
: i

Poo , _ ; CF {
tr —° Senator Hark. TR vasa’ motantial. it wae actual. .I'd
ia || Like to see the committee recommend stronaly that they go in

le! this direction on the hasis of sur 13 months of looking at the

iy | damn thing.
ft - T dentt know Rew Lona vou hbaye bto-ostudy seme pyoblem |
any | bafore you fo something shot ik, |
| Se enakor Nuddleston. Hod), Lim content a Inave it as |

oa | th is. taking out aurinn the next year.
nn aaa

OF Ms Culbreth nid wa add military: seewiess?
Toe Mad Lar Phabts cp seed peda

Mer Mieheow. Ay! mou bey Lebel Lis remoe Fonckians and lerusc

vO P PRCRED

sme UL

H
'
en |

|
at
ra ||
HT

|

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{
oa

HWY 50955 Docld: 32423509 Page 127 |

eh a \ de 6 enw Be ge 9 OO r2h

poutethe aceneias individiolle: Peave nut thea ent andl the CIA.

if
|

> | Mr. Miller. I thin namtna them is. a dqood idea,
4

ml Senator Wuddleston. * sness this «ets into the domestic
Al task force also.
Rod Mr. Raron. Yes. The Committer will want to look at that
fs , Now if we qo on ‘to sur next set of recommendations for | |
7 jl aovert action. we can he halfeav through the renort. That
i o . ; eon : | °
Po iiventd he moving ta nade 13. vhera we will otalie ur a number of |
2 yj Tecommendak ions related to ceverh action and paramilitary
{ . . . . :
to | activities. which relate ka what the stated nurrosa in Law

11 lof these ackivities ouqhh to be. what restrictions miaht be
io] olaced unen them. what revtey and accountabs lite nrocedured .
ya |omicht apply te them and what bind of centeols Frem the Conaress js

standpoint midht he planed on then from Fhe. standnoint of

te | ether tha buddet or some other aspects. nacticularly the.

je | DPaxamilitary activitiss.

ay - If we start with the Firsk one on rage 48 --
ot. . Senator Mathias. Mere Chateman, don't vou think we ought

| to. skim lidhtly) Much as ve are all desirous to get te that

0

oa | halfway mack. IT think we had better leok at the text very Light4y

. 5 ree / - : 5 1 : 1 : 2 |

oy, | beainnina on nade 42. TR ovowldn't take very Inna ko oo that, |

. H 7 : - 7 “ . . / , . ; . .
ne te, ; (Pause) : - ; -

ror, 4 .

a | - Senator Mathias. Moy erohlem eith the Anaata aa
m4 Foye epene nh that band ak eeyteierergy are jrosetne te ew yhee? |
or | Rey ores Tae a oracerd te ocnnoert thea,

| OP SECRET |
) ce ha a 2 Oe .
HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 128 :

a Mr. Bader,

i! Mr. diGenova.

of a question that

S | information.

2

wan

when thery was an

woanld he onty ene
“What's the

{ Indonesia narear?

a Wasn't ther

pener: that we were

Mr. Aaron.

-yeviewing with the

Fonsakor Mat

: 2

mirhow.

oj Mr. Millar.
ao Mr. Kirhow.

BSR Lee BN Bee oe '

ara)

wintonesian roference?
Yes. -> have acmator study to suppert that.

& t in. faet. one of our. biaqgest stivlies.

That roises the issue, if Il miaht say,

Toqusto wank to knew asia matter of

Have we resolved the cuestion of whether or not the

i Aeronav aarees to the releas: of nN secand covert antion naner

aAcreemonkh annarantiv reached before that thers

covert action raner and that vas on Chile?

status of necotiations now to releace the

The one tants talking ahout. s

e@ another ‘Intailed earner on a covert action
aonesdderiyd?

There wna a paramilitary varer on Laos

which the Acenev vould like us to release and Lhey are now

view toverd rarmittina us to do so.
mn)

hias, What ahont the Indonesian

Thatta ot

aot Pied,
And ble mene on Greace?

hee,

Yhatte ctaesi fied

“There is a classified record that will

ea | tianneart this, cemmant Thess edit onob be a nnkbte recerd. but
. : |. : -
a4 {fo vey vera khde (hare rea anbboan Pest oat gi dn our obher
ad oa ; : ” : ; .
ffs yporenene.
“4

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LO

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eve,

a

HY 50955 DocId: 32423509

Me 4A : an 1

a -

Senator Huddletber . Centa we rake gene bind of

' Mr. Pader. Senater. on tha reaute of the Indonesian

known

overation. the '57- operation is widely but it was a
failure. We want to suercrt che Sumatra vebels and thay failed
ane so did we,
This was when Pane eas shot down.
7 Senator Huddle top.) Pack on nada 44, this term sheep.

fin is that auffictanr?
Mr, Aaron. We bedoa leer discussion of that. aa a matter
cF Fact. UelLl he oui he bhe Commi thee | °

Senator Huddlastan. (Sterilized ecutrpmant,

what doag.

Bhar. mean? . ne a

Mr Aaron. Thatia ocoudipment whase oricdin vannok bea

hraqced,

Seratar Mathias.  Mhns, is the editor, fF hore that

wTwoOY

enone of these howevers thet-ore used to headin sentences with

will be put Following the first verb instead of at the beginninc

of the santence,

At of pace 12 ( think vou should wake that a

the tan

little stroncer, effectics Concregsional oversichkh. boo, if

thay have the cuts too ves ir. 1 maan ar thay dent use it,
Pe isn't worth anvthine.

Mr oddtenava.  Ucrator would vou maya be out Rhert
Janes fy thope: oe

hnatar Mabhin PET sev dane abet bt. though

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MORAY PAUL,

Page 130

ie"

l bee ua 4.8
il.
i
|
h

Po pose de titre ta he a fiers 4 spore Tiber

(OO Mr. Aaron. Tf toers ts the will to exercise ik.
Senator Mathias. Mecause vou now. vou head into the
4 Pracutive Pranch and there's an omotional anneal with the flaq

vwayine and the Star Srancted

end ‘all that ki It ta

akens nado of ety

7 T feantt think, we oudht to dornnolay the t

Ropomere Fat that vou hold the oeaecr of the
| :

| iho an easy mower ho exercies
}

la Senator Huddleston, ALL right.

1 | recammendatian number. Loon nade bt,

Me. Naron. rode ke Rid

ye Tim aek
pa qj rtcommencdetioans Te has sone be mater
a dust simnis make ane poink with ~radard &

Raat ds that in aivind the Nrenev

is to do,

some of the things that it

6

eoyert onerations. the concent vould ke

banner beina playad on the Capitol

ure | re

a cha areor

kes some courane, and

act that, just the

noureée, that jt makes

yeady for

Roler ho speak tog theses

werk Cen bis. I'L

a the firsk one,

ard

gneluding the conduct oe

I

to use thea vit

|
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wedting _ down |

‘ ra | devine of trying toa alse sek Ferth some of the rurnose? of
lo: these miesions that the Ancncy sonld be aiven and ip that
. 1 a
on || context the ceneral iniunebhions af --
| The first reconmenation sould axdag to he sup t smented

oo Woby the srecifies that feller.
i Mr. Bader. Votrogh the tarenace
uy . .

nq bp aubkended dn the foesh durtarrse be wndey |}

er, Cavmithes that the vec eb cecasb oo ebinn

: , a RE ET
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: WON oar

HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 131

‘dao glean hers bois
Poa the * the
shouted } reo ec eokbor

Panett o and not a routine mirces dere, Tt is alten Intended to

i
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2 | underline the Committee resition that covert action aaain in
the excentional nature showl he used only when other means

will not do.

And then it goes nn te tath about that there shonld be

t
{
|
i)  senenavnee- tor. neatne that there is both careful and thoughtful
[sm thoroudh consideration oF tho qeneral nolicies qovarning
pe | aeuert actian and that thea) nraredures insdvte narkicinpation
af naltev makars at the highest lavel and be masked be
ine accountability.
11 What we'ra intending bey de here is to underline there

‘os |i variones noints. the exceptional nature!) fall aceeuntebi lite,

io theranuth. evstematic ravice.

1 et nt eee © eet

va | Mr. Tnderfurth., "he first ts lectslation authorizing
- the conduct of covert ackion:d mokas olear. That seams to he
16 | sort of present legislation. ‘where is none. |
-| Mr. Aaron. It showld sav, recommendation lL. thatthe
re | lerislation authorizied the cerduct of covert actions make |
so | clear that dts purndse is to resnond. -
ae Mr. Maxwell. The proflem is there isn't following from |
2] the charter. section in the First sat of recsommendakions, the |
on | tacommendation other than the very early one abont NSC that
ax fla charter for the CTA atthardcdng the Fallowing “umctinngs sheule
oem os i
cq | be cearn and that becaugs phere is nok phat recemendation
ee dn this seetion, oT bhie™ Mhet ta reoomenk Ge apmrersdabe,

. ‘ ‘em : ’ - = :

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1 . . af

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50955 DoclId:324235039 Page 132

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my

roa

HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 133 -

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-ankhorized to conduct. if vor will, esnicnaqe and. that it also

attempted here to lay eut for the Subcomnittea's consideration.

_after the semicolon, there may ka a more artful way of saving

aekoun a richaniem, and there mov be a more artiul war of

@ oe are Swe hy : ; idl

Mr. Tnderfurth., ‘ache faust addon Lina that that charter

should state that and then «9 into this.

Mr. Kirbow. Are vou recommending a revision of the

1947 Act to change the charter of the CIA or to make it clearer

‘or more snecific. or da you want: to simply indicate here that

the Committee récommends that hv statute. covert operations
or covert action he authericed?

Mr. Tnderfurth. T thin it should all he in one niece
in the omyihns ledislation.

Mr. Baron. Yes. ¢€ think that in fact in the heqinning

ana also in the section it simnley savs that. .the CIA is ~ $

ouaht to antharivze. It alee sudcests that thev'ro authorized
. ~

to conduct a certain amount of counter-intelliqeove.

Mr. Rader, Wa can ar new to nace 49 where we: have
Mr. Maxwell, dust.one comment on 48. The first clause

that. lecisiation should make sure thak mrocedures be Caveleped

within the Executive Pranch.

fe that desioned te do that by lecislatien or is that

2 recommendation? We made some racommendations by statute to

seydne Shak,

the, Parter. Pericp aos ean queko am from thoab ovrccedurer

FOP SECRET

rr

ot me ee eerie orate Amy et een

+ cea TAREE ee pana REY “rere rena
ee teas

eect ee A A AA I ER RT, et

HY 50955

a&

15

with using ALL political assassinations. Ee bacomeas a bit

Chard at that stage to he Tinted,

woo PA RY Ba Bloc : {
131 |

Mr. Miller. You can dn this in various wavs hv requireme

‘of reporting to the Conaress. - |

be develoned within the Pyalnthwe Branch. , | |
|
|.
‘Mr, Badar. On pada 4g, ton of Ehe vaqe, we come to the |
a, : |
hard problems here, and this’ section is addressed to the quest oe
oF serific prohibitions en varieties of covert action. . It 1
notes that the Committee. has afer its investigation of alleged
assassination attencts. tae cocamnendea a nt= tite to forbid

such. activities.

- .. _—

What we nut hefore khe Coumittes for consi eration is|-

a ataff list of other nogsibtea -racommendations. You can |
the first bracketed one where thare i? sovie dispute as to 4 |

whether that shovld be Bo inesluded is all no Litienl agaassinations
That ig to move from foreiaqn leaders to all political
assassinations, and we can anime back ta that. The others you
can see are clear, and we vould veleome-comment.

Senator Mathias. “what ahout religious assassiations?

Mr. Bader. That seams to be mart of the problem, Senato

an

Mr. Navis, The Wvenukive Ordar bas all political
assassinations. Theyvare showl of us.

Senator Tnddlesten. tno the hill that we ‘ave rropared

‘And Pnbroduced chek doen bho revs
Mr. PAdar. TR Toes neha thak bhe fs Nrrlar does

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owen PAUL

en a -

Bocld: 32423509 Page 134

ae SOO ge me : owe

kate ng a nten further.

Senator Huddlestren. ‘tio. wa introduced an anti-assassina~

1
|
* J tion bill, didn't we?
| . : . :
i Mr. Bader. Yes. what sncke to foreicn leaders.
|

] 7 . - . + : . . . +

RoW ; Mr. Maxwell. Tre bill itself, I think, would have covers
a
i , : . :

& |) foreign individuals as we!l as, because leadership was so |,

hroadlv defined.

A Part of the nrahiem (an the recommendation -that came out
Hl . : / . . : ,
a at the stafé level was thoah eanvthing that ve sa: about non-

vad Feretan leaders or domestic assassinations cr the Jibs implied -

}

7 that the Committea had investiaated alleaaktions about that, and
poienk tae that sowe erédencs should be given toa charges that
|

iy i) the Aqenev had heen inyelved In athemnts. to assascinate peopla

|

i:

,

7

|
in the United States, and thak wags the nreblem of trving
te word snme nrohihition that vent bevond the bill that has | 7 |
Already been introduced hv the Sbnaters.

Mx. Kirhow. Or of soma lesser wilitary-type individual

ap i in a foreicn country. vou know, assassinating a sarazant is

nretky batl as far as he is concerned hut ib would not necassarily

1a: 7
: - t
en | be volitical. . ; . |
fa Senator Huddleston. Wak about meace time? Should that: |
mh | ; ; :
: ;
oo | he in there?
as |i Mr. Kirbew. fo kbink ene bid) distinanish 7 betcuan peac
ey di . : oe ae
eg | hime spt war Rime Ua betes,
pd anh F Toqucetion whetter cn nab baying dene that before. that
Mra AP i : Fie 2 oreb havin nea that
“HH
|

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Net” PAE

HW 50955 BDoctd:32423509 Page 135

“ : ‘jl 4
iV
Q
| ;
14
, |
iy
i
fo
® yorohibition at all.
{.

ey i
|
7 |
q
|
af
a
yy . Mr, Kirbow. ft!
La

Far emohasis

Me. ftrhow.

anain.

Senator Mathias,

Mr. Aaron,

| cory bhes thine. Wes

aint ehvau ereens “hes arldab

oa |
|
|

“HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 136.

s

Mr. Kirhow. Thai ¢

| assassination activitica

haa

ro)

, iL ather than nolitical Jaaders.

soryrper beD ae in

a

reo od{dnit find any avidenne

13h°

eetitical assassinations ncet tna he disrodced Farther ag a

Mr. Maxwell. Perhans jf the Senators think it is

desirable to say somethin, tha eataffcaould qet lanauage which
> od would not imply in anv wav that the Committee has found credibls!
evidence that the CIA was eandaged in activities hevond this.
Bit which would reflect their desire not to: their desire to

make alear that the CIA conte nat do that.

moray. isnit

finting that it

maceansatilv based an wranndeined dq the onach.

Senator Mathias. This vranckitive bat that's all right

Me cronld werk on the landuace and thow it.

That about the cecend ene?

I'm not culte clear on this first one. We-
wilt draft seme lanquaia that makes clear that we did not

Find anv avidence of anything other than ovhat welyva found?

that would

indicate that they had eecaetsd in thesa other tyres of

nye thak we vould oreldbit it anvway.

Tn .that. though, we eonsidered

and hak omaqar ar entannionver in ane of, tp the her tth sitorakion
a : PONS : .

SobhaAbl te can mates big clear
Vober ced leeeracse Tobia bh Obak Ee

FOP SRORET

Wott PAUL

|
|
|


4 ™ byt ae | Wee ee th
i '
i ; ; ; oo . . .
Po ese ceneeirny Fhat Tho not tettiente that wa had found som: avidence
f . . ;
2 i that we hacl- just not revealed,
| . : . “ : °
Roi. Mr. Bader. Perhans if would he helnful. Senator, but
4 jpak the same time the Admintstratian hes coms forward. with
5h | lanquace of all political assassinations. vhich seems to me
|
A yj ronda indicate that it's nek a cmestion of a. Finding.
i

anator

Phe HLL) bhak we

Myo Kirke

fou
C .

‘T think vow

than and the

|

{

Lo

|
4

| Jeadalation
Mary

recommen tad

- FAthonots, a

continues

Mr. Maxwe

a

recammeands:

- t
ya aor En
vo | Seaard to permit

EO

if

Sepehor

nN

anvarnments?

fal

Seaton.

Pyytr Ceyard

the

felyes

eeatoten
treet

his

|
8
_
7

HW 50955 Docld:32423509' Page 137

Huddlestan,
eou ld
Committes contd
Aaron.
Following

eat

Li.

bho

bayve suomi

we And osapt?

te

oo

ius

mn

2

Wiamber 3

its

Farhis

te ko

‘to endorse that.

Tt

Mv shabuba

at

ting any moti

nedledlestan,

athias ys
eo rape gaber
Ahyeust dang
TOP
.

yeebicratton

could cay

prh
Trt.

ad. Lt pothiner Lae
mate GQ gotpaert obhat
ehh on te thie, a
nes. to gumpeark onac

‘ing the Cromaitbaa

ot

aueh-ackivitias.

the

bhe nrerent F seout

Ryjenloa

a en oN

ination

apauk

dag heath?

Pe wa

ao hptiangee ie ffyrak
Thay mag mak Ma any
SECRET

ve ee” "

Aq PAUL

blac

Tha

cdamogoraticoal dy

Tilyer

se outht to recommend passaqe of

lecislation.

race mended it

rent of sych
‘hae niready

Committee

Conmitteea also endorses

ders Order in

elected

©

dom &
pai b tary and

ce Tey meallal.

~t assassination

7
t
|

Wi SRA te ed ae |

oe ceatmmart both,

Mr. Aaron. Would! that tuclude sunnortingd the Uxecutive
2 y Ovder provision being in the lav or just supnorting?

a Senator Mathias. “ni the Presidential. -- why don't

Mr. Kirhow. We enforse the concent.

ry My. Davis. If they're not different.

. . -
we he ambiquous? . oo ; |
Mr. Titenora. There te a recermendattean here that other |

i) tee of couerk action which shanld be hanned, nd since we'ra
pa i talking ahouk a statnte which we have submitted which bans. |

| . . -
“44 lat we would then han hv statute. recommend hanning by stakute
| |

fall nolitical assassinations which weild enlarie the President's, -

ee wanted to

Meeontive Crdar into a Jaw and. then tha rest of these. just
assuming fer the sake of arcvumant thak the Commit

vould ban all peacetime nolitical assassinations.

|

_ he : . o . .
| dea that, i* vonld he a recemrandation for ledislation which
|

Mr. Kirhow. The staff could work on that lanavage a-

Vittle and aet it back te veu, ; oe |
T think we know whak ven want to do here, don't you.

|

|

Ho
ie

|

Ne. Aaron. Ves. To think we can mato a fix. juek make

the point that the noliticsl oseassinations noint is putting
lin law what the Executive Order is as prenosed be the Tseontive

Order ero aa pravitcad Iwo the ‘resukdve Order.

Sanaber Huaddlectoan UpP right te's then te overthrow

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Vite, PPL

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r bf ba? apg Be €S
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OF i 136
Ri
t
i . : :
' danoeratically elected ccusremants
e ‘Mr. [nderfurth.° ? “isaht mantion that Cyrus Vance went
* |ibeyond this. We said al} interference in the electoral processe
1 lof-a country should be kanned. which soes heyend this.
Ai ; _ :
fof Senator Mathias. ferhans that was some subliminal
46 | influence on ma. but I've writtan down effarts to subvert a
’ j.walid electoral process.
; | . ' . .
2 Tt seems to me thabouhat da hetter because when you
2 lralk ahony -laverthrowina ep dlapocratically elecke:' government,
. | 7 .
al .
TO Ged knews what that is. And To don't enor that voulre really
| : : . .
fL panting ta know what a valid electoral crocess is. The republic
_ i ; \
LP of Venice, where they have a very Limited electorate. alected
ye] these. But nonetheless. it vas their constitution and it
14 wasn't very democratic. . Wnt whatever it js, and this would be
rs fi in line withoc Georda Cannen's testimony also.
lA We finally have acknevledced that the Sovist Union has
| er .
; _ . ;
jy || a leaislature of sorts and we acknowleadqa their electcral
9 | oracess. although we don't think much of dh.
“ao!

Me, Culbreth. Would cour uga of hha term subvert, would

, i vou intend to include within that preventing the CIA from

any rind of nolitieal er cronadanda in connection with the

ae pelactiens in another country or any kind of supnort to one of

2 | thea candidates that we cichb think was oa hetter-cendddate?

9
eA. | Mr Mirhow  Uebl ovo eatd rsendpa of 4
A oe! ;
on | Mr Cilbreth. verk comld ven not subvert the results bs

‘Docla:

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sree - AAU

32423509 Page 139°.

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t
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ee MA a

i
ft
i
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| iafluencing the carryines ok oF the electien?
ae | Senator Huddleston. Vell. we subvert our own elections

A jevery time we run.
Ff to overthrow democratically elacted governments .

“y i] process.

qo f elected aqovernment?

ra | sense we could actually list them,

ya || country. _ a
se Senator Mathias. This would be Cannon's advice.

Senator Huddleston.

La NE?

: and it would be valid 3% cemeanes in that country
i

on
x

notimn aoa dietater.

TOP S ECRET

YOR PAUL

HW 50955 DocId:32423509 Page 140

yd Senator Mathias. ~The oricinal, suqaestion was efforts |
I mean both |

of these -- efforts to. subvert the results of a valid electoral

PR. _  ° Senator Nuddleston. 7 think that's atl viaght.
| a .
g { Mr Inderfurth. in oa sOnRa what is a.der oeratically

it Mevnihan savs that an the U.N. there are 24,
Mr. diceneva. What ahbouk, whak is a valid electoral”
communist

iq] J mrecess? Whatever it is in sach country? To mean the

jn | have one party and that's a valid eles toral process

{ think ve have to *scommite
the risht of another countre to have their niepenral
attemptine
bo cironmvent theix established ‘constitutional nraceseos,

Mr. Maxwell. The onalifiar in the Senater ' s proposal

should be

i

7 vas demnoratie, go that at daast in sema wey dk rastrics
i
i
i
| Senakoar (hadedbes coon Sahel ware rninaga on. wpre ohies
t

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co Ff | oO 7 138

a)

jin chhere.!
Mr. Miller. What cases wonld.this »rohibit? In our
|

ackions in the vast it weld erehihdit Chile. Tran ---

cae of the OWile oreration.
Mr. Miller. Guatemala,
Senator UWuddlasten. Te crenstd neko mzohifbit Andola..

Me. Asron. Th woud nrobihie sone thins that transpired

Mylo Midber. Dh wouted peebibpt fhe oactiens in thaly. .
} to
ea

| oo ten! k Lf ye) T8 4s set

| souddn sb LR. ane Pranet

,

Sepakoy Tact lector. Pb Agepends an the berm anhyverston.

bade . : oe . 3
(Ve wart frst agsiekinea one 6 ide,

17 4 .
Me Tdybow.  Aessiehing oboon cleetieon durivg

the gleetion precess dost net aneear te be bla doberk of
the Commi fbese

Me Aaron, Towouldatt chink thab whak is uoine on in |

PorhucaL t poye inewopab that Le would come under this

meohihitien.

Me, Miller. Sa dh wovld roalty affeak the socre Lika

orn |e
rye

-Uvan, Guatemala. and chidn,

it a
a . an
hie  Raran., And Tadenania,
' Py ay
. oA

Sengtar daddleston, Cabar

ete Rh PII

HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 141


8

5

2

pera)
2]

o4
22.

a moment, we don't want t: insert then, using your language,

Committee has toa address. Th would he a verv short Teash.

Me. tnderfurth., fob dueh ta hea devil's adverate for

‘Sunator. the efforts to influence or subvert the results of ~
‘a valid electoral process? .
Senator Mathias. ‘Vhat may be ten shert acleash. | |

“Mr. Tnderfurth. Mee TJ think that's a question the

enator Huddleston. ell. there ars “ifferent vavs to

influence and there may be a nrorer wav tn infliosnee.

Sea SS a ae me apna etent

Mr. tnderfurth. Tf there were a coroner. then verhaps

one could define the imrrorer wav. influencing bv passing Foney.

covert nronaganda. and that bens of thing. — - 4 |
Me. "irbor, Tf the Committe s intention is after
the nerson is elected and vou don't want te. prevent that kind
af nergon heaind nit inta officer hy any maangs, -then you do. it I
: |
here. |
IF veu ao not intend as a committer to nreclude using
| the nress or using other Sittin to influence the outcome of |
the election, then we ahantd be solid on that and gtay out
oF that area. But it's am t7 the committer to dacide. —_ |
. ; . i
tee, Bader. This lanauace eneaks ta subverting the |
results, nok inflnenci na the outceme .
Mr. Kirbow, And he nays that WAS his intent.
Gevaker ie llesten thie doasg rab ree luda, from
sob ednne invs}aed as me Vid du That y, \
TOP SECRET |
‘ Wann PAUL. | |

HY 50955 Docld: 32423509 "Page 142

pete : rt She. a oe | ide

H i
| :
i t
i t

' Me Rader. Om dey Cork yeat

oa _ Senator Huddlesten, That's nok a subversion of the

al

erocess, that's an assistance.

'

4 oo 9 - Senator Mathias.) that’ narticination in the nrocess.

Roy - My, Inderfurth., Phat about after on election but prior

6 to the formation of a coalition sovernment?

7 Senator Mathias. * Tosould think that wonld be subverting.
ep i Fo ven aqet in there and jsav J ell. we are wo ried ahout who

7 | |

Oo
9 fi theda nedule have elected,

; ,
ame J didn't know it loon General Hala until) this afternoon

ry but To wae ayare that same American official had made a >

jal) threat te Mitterand thak he weutd ke in trouhle if ho were

. 1 -
eos ' ; ways
jad atenked Prine Minister and attermntad to brine acme radical

ya leftiets into the Trench Cahinat,

LS Mew dh seems to ma that thatiid a threat to-subvert the

t

| Pranch electoral nrocess and tf in fact we carried out that |

threat T think that that would he prohibited hv this language.

a

activities. Tn other words, if Ceneral Wadia said thet vrivataly

hut: didn't mean it in terme of covert action, he just wadd the

»

j

|

q

| oy .

| .

| “Mr. Aeron, T take dbo the vord subvert ares to covert

oe) | Tnited States qovernment will: ~~

no ly Senntor Mathias.

Stakes or the Secretaryin® Skate on tho Secretary of Ms fenge

oF
. . ; t . . - . . ’ . q
ca | mick vere wed) occtando up in ferent mk bin -eleviston cameras anc

oc | mich eae Veab. $8 ues iat a eeroumiek dem the Crone Cabtnet
cant “Oo ; ;

> SECRET

Ree PALE .

|
_ |
To think the President of the mnited

fo TO
| ns

HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 143

BW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 144

é ayo a we 5 a a. en ‘i

|

=| telling vau richt now. |
T don't think that’s mechthited.
» | 7 Rut 4f wa shadow men oround and antch h

ad | blsekmail him. or anvthing of thati sart «+

t
bovis under bkhe parliament) sor meeher van tee hin

2 inaTo'es searats. then there's apined to be hell to

im

nay..and we're.

in s

that this

cmourk

the roi. &

; F :
P| Mel Bader. «That Nes 2 ark ackian oroojeak.
9 io. " Geyatar thntdlegban.  Vheralqone oeakion
:
] .
i .
YO fowhole mater aa af juternad interuankian dm another
VW (OMe. Kirkhow. Senator. chabever ven aay here
po yoke he ane oF the highass cenrdderatioius cicran he
i . i
Ta | Comittee.
|
ra | Seavetor Maddlestrn T food thane era kes
is |Ureatrtationa and nometrdinn eu our interfereues in
16 |} internal oneration of the oaevernmeant.
i My. Raron. The next ons. snprort for bis he

1a j ether internal seourttyv -- other seaurdbe cron

ra lan torture.

7
20 ‘ . Senator Huddleston. hap tt owe bawe Tee
ey i bhat oP Peak? |
of Mr. Raron: Thera cre suondman be resarding
| aia. Now this is enen foratan ala, Welre telictes
assietante procera,
the VWctenenya . Ube cb sean tomate recpsaa ves nt

VOR & SECRET

Wwoeerery mm PAGEL

re

Tadvialstion to

which enqacde

G& fheoemnronisind nersonal nosition and use the nhetoqraphs to

h

neoepes to

one

2 rome

the

Farcian

nheuak aqovert

ds

Ls

Ve

|

|

Hg A RL he. |

Mr. firbow. Which cues in toebure .
Senator Mathias. “on fomake a seinantic suagestion here.
. ' wo .

that we trv to bring this in line with the lancuade in the

Manstitution. cruel and paueral runishment, because I think

this really teflects. if ibis aetna. ho mean anythind, we ought
to be reflecting our naticnal ethic in both oF these. both

in snhverting the results sf a valid electoral process--

| Senator Huddlacten, aes vou ae’ inte Lhe question
ae sanital minishment.

af the things that the Forkers in encaced in is before a ;
nerson has heen dudaad to be crak thy oh ae Trams. someone whip

is ming tartured in an inkervodabion.. Fhak ne rer vouta not

{
Me: Maxwell. There!s snethar mrobiem anc that is one |
ke subject to cruel and reusval ranishmen, but thea evstematic.
violation ef human riakts ar seme otker
Senator Mathias. That's a phrase. though. with which-

Amerdeans have heen farsi liar since 1787. and it seems. to me

jt has some valine.

thoudht to the way we treat oriseners ino this-eountry.

Fenator Mathias. Yer. Po othink thet te ao problem, I think:

1

H
Senator Hart, Ube rrobtlerm is we den'tt aive serfous |. |
|
‘hind. |

thatts ao rrohtem in thin chet:

Sareane ance eatel oof tin time khat kha Thedian rayments
wepo ocyrored oven tava fhe Poridana dea rita pit the time and

Pe Pe toe eeyrem Phe differsrnes le ve. ag

nike ge iakea abot .
{OP SECRET

VOCERPD oy OALEE Lo

HW 50955 ‘Docld:32423509 Page 145

around an

fed

|
Our own 3

Bu

KR | thie is a
8 Put

& jp ue
i
ty
9 My

ia | thyak hare va talks aborl
i

wl Forces.

ia {he femainder of:

ect mee

that

sc

wey

1B

LO at torture
1? “Myr.

standards
con't mress

eheuld

re talking

n ivedvertent,

19 i
val wa have s

4
Tooreaching al
ancl
tandards,
LIL. think

t i st

n opportunity

the

Senator lluddlesten. Je!

abl

cive sors

“Kibrhbow.,

tia the poliat af the
ALA Anon

about

and whatnot.

Aaron. Can

think that Cha

then when °°

that's

Bey i.

poipek.

withouk,

. ay tl

l
ahah
bhak wea

ele eyed

“1

Bivgetey

numpart

yak

and

Sat

i

sneak

ct Ley

ort of that Sdiid of
eo it is difficult to asverkain whe
. al . . —
ot covernmenk or whether the dntarn
fod . _
eo | very Fracmented among the milir
‘pn || Wave vou. vhether these internet.
eq} duetoon thedr ove
de - -
on il Pir fiche nc sfrege Toh
| a Sy
|
vo fry i

HY 50955 Doold:32433509 Page

146

i
are shown

hrinas

Linkace

chust

For

sentence
counkry
mower t
avkhieritv
ont.
bo
raises an

situation

wOY 1 ml
tha k
Us
| b o

oughk

offer

ee

hy r 2

thak

:

ther ih
ab
ry anc

securdhe

rorkber >

HORET

me

vou

tad.
wae

eich,

robles

meaner
ries

On Pe go

interes

hilay
is

security

tive

ct

we

don'

ty

frderhe

ethical

t live up to

retribution.

notwithstanding that

shotubedn |

anvodyed

ye Oe:

es

aid

poink?

in
kha

for

Fowgen

the

shi re

state:

Coy

Yi

vay

interne |

cyte

‘of exnosures

ire)

ras)

mola
ane

a

7 Mhtherwise

wager

PU.

iskitution.

f suqqest

security
aenky He

1 thy maybe

a country.

ao tiaen

ane

“le and
23? where
on ce the
ich are
nc

what

Yon,

lice are


a: ie te Be hg MAL . ai

1: "oo My. Aaron. I think fhisg is the aucstion. It aces to

* i the point not of assistance to the government in general or

% | even covertly, but assistance to these particular forces, and

that I.think does narrow it dawn toa the problem.

“an

Senator Huddleston. hat kind ‘of support do we give. the

{

I
a security forces?
Mr: Kirhow. Trainin.

'
| co, ;
pT "Mr, Aaron... We have In. the past. ve enn give tham
a . . : :
Oo | technical, training. electronic. devices.
10 tl Mr. Kirhow. A whole spectrum exennt for U.S. military

11 4 Sunvort.

ee) ; “Mr. diGenova. Some -f the nreprictaries were used 9°

for exactly that purpose. toa rrovide training and secure

nrocuremeant and sale and loan of davices -hich ultimately

|
|
|
+ . .
1s | found theix way into the hands of foreian torturers.
We certainly don't denrivs the Agency of any legitimate
source of intelligence becauss they themselves claim that they
“oes gee anaaded. in this activity knowingly and don’ want

oho.

20 | “They nay they don’t want: anything tn do with khis type
“94 of ackitity and thev sav thay don't want to he involved with
| internal police forces that condnat this type of activity.

net The. have said recently that thev have discont/nued

aa || thoss.sorts of Us heen, aQ on erehibi tt why banning Lt

an | enems bo wa ho say Fine. oor saree with ve and we wilh do it.
“| TOP SECRE -

R T
| Lhe & PAUL.

HW 50955 Docld: 32423509 Page 147

HY 50955

mm

mn)

a

9

1a

19

20

pa

oar
bee

i a : ~ th we A Kw . Lbs

to have a finding-on thir aint.

3

Mr, diGenova.. That's the next issue I was going to

raise. We don't write anythina shout this anv. ntace in the
‘report.

Senator Huddleston. noes the Agency. have a directive
ime) that effect that they have discontinued or are discontinuing

that we can refer to and sav we apnrove of it?.

Mr, Inderfurth.. Xs eed an in the Chile covert setion
etudy there is discnssion of Liaison with the current Chilean
internal security forces and that the CIN vas saving, well,
wo vant to talk to them hut “a don't vant ho ha involved: i
wha b they're doing and we wank to trv fo aston then From their
orankices of torture and the reat,

“So mean that's something we can look te asa basis
for our findings.
Mr. digenova.. where's alan a parallel with the drug

thincd,

Mr. Aaron, Senator. shall wa bry to sea tf wa man.

es ta vork. th the

come back with some Vanduase that tri
Conatite@tienal. votat? Tonust ¢av tC nersonally havea little
difficulty figuring put hor * ve rurn this around ko try to
Aovly to what tha police Ag?
Senator Natoins. hebig tNink abaut it,
Gonater “Huddleston. Lebla “tet hae at de dy. “That's a

TOP SECRET

Wann RAUL

Docld: 32423509 Page 148

|

Ho 0 Mr Aaron, What eccors ta me is thet it would Se j

|

eacide bat i . aa » rea Lee & a a . 14h

! .
i whale two hours anda hslf.

J 1

HI oo .
2 to. dWhereupon, at 5-90 p.m... the hearing-‘in the ahove
: ) 1
po ; _ - a
‘mentioned matter was recessed, to reconvene at 7:30 o'clock

4° oom. of the same day.)

ia

TOP SECRET.

Wann & PAUL

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