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‘(157-10002-10148 : " 2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992 |

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' Date:10/08/93
Page:1
JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM
IDENTIFICATION FORM bide

AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY : SSCIA
RECORD NUMBER : 157-10002-10148

RECORDS SERIES :
TRANSCRIPT.

AGENCY FILE NUMBER :

ee ee

ORIGINATOR =: SSCIA
‘FROM : ~
TO:

94

TITLE :
TESTIMONY OF JAMES P. O'CONNELL

DATE : 05/30/75
PAGES. : 168

SUBJECTS :
MAHEU, ROBERT
CASTRO
ASSASSINATION
CUBA
HUGHES
BISSELL
VERONA
VARONA
HARVEY, WILLIAM
ROSSELLI
GIANCANA
MAFIA
TRAFFICANTE
CIA
ROWAN, DAN
MCGUIRE , PHYLLIS

DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT
CLASSIFICATION : T
RESTRICTIONS ¢ REFERRED __
CURRENT STATUS : P . .
DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 09/30/93.

OPENING CRITERIA :

[R] - ITEM IS RESTRICTED

HY 50955 -Bocld:32761986 Page 1 —

ie Date: 10/05/93

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JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM

IDENTIFICATION FORM

COMMENTS :
Box 255
Folder 4

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Le . cote no
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ES) 8 1 Chairman Church. Would you please take the oath?
e
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z 2 Do you swear that everything you will testify to in
N
g 3 these proceedings shall be the truth, the whole truth and
£ 4 nothing but the truth, so help you God?
5 Mr. O'Connell. I do.
6 : TESTIMONY OF JAMES P. O'CONNELL
y Mr. Schwarz. Would you state your name?
8 Mr. O'Connell. My name is James P. O'Connell.
9 Mr. Schwarz. And what is your address?
10 Mr. O'Connell. 133 Dd sinore Avenue, @
11 -
12 Mr. Schwarz. Before we proceed substantively let me
al
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é 13 just put on the record some matters.
é
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< ‘1a: - First, you understand that you have a right to counsel?
15 Mr. O'Connell. I understand that. I just read it.
16 Mr. Schwarz, And you should also be advised that you
9 . have your rights under the Constitution, including your
18 rights under the Fifth Amendment, if at any point you wish
19 to assert whatever rights that you do have that are under those
Dil *
8 Constitutional provisions.
6 20
: Do you understand that?
2 21
5 Mr.O'Connell. Yes.
2 22
93 Mr. Schwarz. And if at any time you feel that you
@: 24 need an attorney you have the. right to ask for an |
. & ‘
© 25 attorney, do you understand that? : : 4
ba .

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pills?

Mr.

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O'Connell. The man that created them is},

Mr.
Mr.
Mr.
Mr,
Mr.
Mr.

Mr.

Schwarz... Did.he hand the pills to you?
O'Connell. Yes. |

Schwarz. Did he know what the pills were for?
O'Connell. I don't think so.

Schwarz. But he knew they were illegal?
O'Connell. He knew they were illegal.

Schwarz. And were the pills not tried out on some

experimental subjects in the U.S.?

Mr.

Mr.

Mr.
that, we
Mr.

Mr.

Mr.

Mr.
Mr.

Mr.

‘Mr.

O'Connell. Yes.

Schwarz. And proven to be lethal?

O'Connell. Well, to the extent -- I will tell you
used them on hamsters.

Schwarz. And. also monkeys?

O'Connell. No, as far as I know, just the hamsters.

-Schwarz. But anyway, you knew they were lethal.

O'Connell. Yes.
Schwarz. And you handed them over to Rosselli?
O'Connell. Yes.

Schwarz. And had the Technical Services made poison

pills before as far as you know?

Mr.

This was

O'Connell. As far as I know. I have no idea.

my first experience with that sort of thing.

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your possession, that might give you a more accurate timing tha
I am giving to you now.

Mr. Madigan. We don't have it presently.

Mr. O'Connell. I am sure it is over there.

Mr. Wides, With regard to the discussion of authorization
would it have been following on Mr. Madigan's point, that this
was a fairly serious and unusual operation that you were given,
and that you would have asked, is this authorized? Or how did
the question of Mr. Dulles authorizing it come up, as best you
recall?

Mr. o'conhell. I told you, I knew that Mr. Dulles -- I wa
told that Mr. Dulles had authorized it, I can't say quite when
it happened, but I know I was told.

Mr. Wides. You testified this morning -- I don't want
to put words in your mouth -- I thought you testified that you
were sure that Mr. Edwards told you at this meeting when he fir
gave you the assignment that you were not sure that Mr. Bissell
also mentioned that when you later met in your office.

Mr. O'Connell. I would stick with that, yes. I think it.
probably was when I -- when Colonel Edwards called me he

Said, this probably has the blessing of the DCI.

Mr. Wides, Do you know if[Dr. Vv.

2,

was head of the Technical Services Division at the time, was
witnessing about this?

Mr. O'Connell. I wouldn't want to bet my life that he

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$ 1 wasn't. But he was at a meeting when the bills were delivered,
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8 e and | Diarrerchilérg came over to Colonel Edwards'office.
zs 5 Mr. Wides. But you don't recall whether you ever knew
? a Pegeres
& 4 that(Psegen knew what it was in connection with as distinct
5 from merely knowing it was a lethal pill, is that right?

6 Mr. O'Connell. I can't say ~- to my personal knowledge,

? the discussion never came up when I was there, I don't think

=e is any dummy, and

8 he is a dummy, and I don't think}
9 I think they had a general idea.

10 But as far as I know they were never officially told.

il Mr. Wides. To your knowledge, before you went overseas
12 no one else in the office of Security, Mr. Bannerman, Mr.

14 White or Mr. Hall, none of those men or anyone else knew about

Near

WARD & PAUL

14 the project, only yourself and Mr. Edwards?

15 Mr. O'Connell. Well, I would say this, to my knowledge

16 they were never briefed. However, I think I brought up an

17 incident this morning where Colonel Edwards was on leave and

18 Cohonel King called Mr. Bannerman, who was his

19 deputy, and assumed that Bannerman knew all about it and started

20 talking about it, what are we going to do about

21 this -- I don't know what the conversation was about. And

20 Bannerman called in and said, what was this all about?

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23 Mr. Wides. This was in 1962 before you left?

24 Mr. O'Connell. Yes. It was while I was up in the office.
ee”

25 And I said, I don't have the authority to brief you on it.

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127

Mr. Wides. Were you ever aware, whether you were formall
notified or just got a rumble or heard through the grapevine,
that the CIA was getting some information about these threats,
or some information about groups who might pose a threat in the

Washington area, not from Bureau sources or military sources,

but from CIA sources, did you ever hear any rumble of that kind

Mr. O'Connell. Yes.
Mr. Wides. What did you hear?
Mr. O'Connell. The only way I got involved in it was that

Howard Osborn would have a nine o'clock meeting every
morning with his deputies.

And they had a proprietary organization in the Office of
Security which I think had informants.

Now, I don't know their identities, but it would come out
in the meeting, and they would have some names for them. I
couldn't tell you what they were.

Mr. Madigan. What was the proprietary called?
The name that strikes me -- ana I

Mr. O'Connell.

know part of it, but I couldn't tell you exactly -- I think it

oe

Eindenson

was

Mr.
Mr. Wides. You say you think they had informants?
Mr. O'Connell. They obviously did, I guess, because the

way this would come out, so-and-so advised at a meeting last

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: i night.
ne 2 Mr. Wides. If you associate that with ligAnder one
g Woke you must have been told more than just, we have an informant.
4 How would it be discussed at the meeting, through this

5 proprietary we have access to information?

6 Mr. O'Connell. No, it usually would be the Deputy

? Director that that was under. And that was under OIS.

8 Mr. Wides. Victor White? |

9 Mr. O'Connell. Victor White.

10 Mr. Wides. And what would he say about howgfimieinson

11 fitted into the picture?

12 Mr. O'Connell. That never came up. I just drew that

13 conclusion, that they had potential.

WARD & PAUL

14 ' Mr. Wides. Why would you assume that they used a proprie-

15 tary as opposed to just having some agents penetrate a group?

16 Why would you think in terms of their using the #

17 Mr. O'Connell. I can tell you what I think.
18 First of all, I wouldn't want to use government employees.
19 Mr. Wides. Why couldn't the CIA personnel just run

20 agents who would be ~--

21 Mr. O'Connell. That is in fact what they were doing.

ep2 i. These people that were proprietary were not CIA employees. They

C_ ey
23 vere Woibract teams.

24 Mr, Wides. Why would you have thought that they would have

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143

Did you have any knowledge during the 1970-1971 time frame
of any effort outside of Florida with regard to Cubans to fire
On the Keys or on the Florida area there with a boat that
would be disguised as a Russian boat, which was really a
group of people, some of whom were assets of the Agency?

Mr. O'Connell. No.

Mr, Madigan. You never heard of anything Like that?
Mr, O'Connell. Nothing of that, no.

Mr. Madigan. Did you ever run across a fellow by
the name of Jerry Henning in your dealing with Roselli
and Maheu? |

Mr.O'Connell. No.

Mr. Madigan. You never heard of the name?

Mr. O'Connell. I never heard of the name.

Mr. Madigan. Did you handle the Agency contact with Mr.

Maheu about having him coordinate or set up or be involved

Mr. Madigan. A couple GEtet

Mr. O'Connell, Yes.

Mr. Madigan, What was your involvement in that? Am I
right about 1959?

Mr. O'Connell. It could be. There were two different
Occasions. : - N.

. :
Mr. Madigan. What is your recollection as to the dates?

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144
8
$ 1 Mr .O'Connell. Well, the first one was - about
Bf
x 2 1959,
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z 3 Mr. Madigan. And how did that come about? Why did it go to
FE A you in the Office of Security as opposed to --
5 Mr. O'Connell. Just like this other one came down from the
6 DDP, it came from the Division, as
y ‘| r recall it. and was coming into the --
8 Mr. Wides. Off the record.
9 (Discussion off the record.)
10 Mr, Madigan. What did your first contact with Maheu
11 with regard to this project involve?
12 Mr. O'Connell. Well, the request came to the Security.
a
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é 13 Mr. Madigan. It came down to you?
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< 14 Mr. O*Connell. It came through Colonel Edwards.
15 Mr. Madigan. To you?
16
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; 20 O'Connell.
fal .
é 51 Mr. Madigan. So did you contact Maheu directly?
Fs Mr, O'Connell. Yes.
= 22
ul 23 Mr. Wides. In this instance you were talking about
5
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5 j Hess, i wéerh New York. And we will

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Mr. Madigan. 3
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Mr. OfConnell.

WARD @ PAUL

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yi we thought was going to be a pas

decided he had&

Strings.
So, we agree ar we had to keep
her in one hdfel -- she was staying at the Waldorf-
. Sy

Mr. Madigan.

Mr. O'Connell. seiier

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2S wasn’G holding: er?

Mr. Madigan. And was that the end of that particular

project that you recall?

20. ae

Mr. Wides. ‘Analirouuce:

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Mr.

Mr.

Mr.

Mr.

Mr.

Mr.

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SANE OVERSEAS,

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5 Mr. Madigan. Did Maheu set that up?
6 Mr. O'Connelll. Yes.
9” Mr. Mdigan. Both the original contact and the later. party
8 in San Francisco?
9 Mr. O'Connell. Yes.
10 Mr. Madigan. And were those the only two times now that
ll he was involved in the operations’ field?
121 Mr. O'Connelll. Oh, no. He did a lot of other things.
a
=]
< 13 . Mr. Madigan. Let me ask you this question.
wz
a . .
@ q When Maheu was having his problems with the authorities,
z 14
15 was there any reference back to his involvement in those kind o
16 activities, or was the only discussion about his role in
17 the so-called assassination plot?
18 Mr. O'Connell. Well, I am not even so sure that they got
19 into that aspect of it. It was just that he was involved
8 20 to the extent that he had set up the operation against Rowan,
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¢ 2] or he was the one that got in touch with DuBois to do it.
& 20 Mr. Wides. When did you come back from overseas?
3
4 23 Mr. O'Connell. July of 1965,
a Fe 24 Mr, Wides. After you came back did you learn of a time,
S 25 either after you came back or very shortly before you came
3 ; tee aan 7 ;

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veillance?
Mr. O'Connell. Never, to my knowledge he'never got
involved in that, officially or otherwise.
Mr. Wides. Or surreptitious entry?
Mr. O'Connell. He did one surreptitious entry for us once
Mr. Wides, What were the specifics of that?

Mr, O'Connell, There were a group of BERMTINGN students.

Reand_£

hey were going to they

nay
guuisielesr.4 And they were staying

a oe

in a rooming house up there right outside of Georgetown some-

here. And one of the students{€ame to the case SeRiesnuy

ean said that one of the group was acting very suspiciously,
taking a lot of notes where they were not supposed to be taking
notes,or: certainly after operational briefings, and he would go
back to his room and he would write voluminous notes. And

he thought that was very strange that this guy was not acting

as he should.

And that aroused the suspicion [BE He
And they wanted to know whether we would get in and photo-
graph what he was writing to see whether he was really
violating his agreement.

So I called Maheu and he went up to the rooming house, an
he went to the people who owned the house and asked if they

‘had a room to rent and she had one. And he did know where the

students were staying. And she showed him one room. And

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160
ae) : 1 he said, anything uv on thenext floor? And as luck would
~ : 2 have it, she had the adjacent room.
i 5 So he brought what would appear to be a suitcase up there,
2 4 which was his photographic equipment. And we knew the students
5 were in school, and fthegeaseg
6 _they came back, so he wouldn't get caught in the act.
? And he went in, it was a very simple matter. It was
8 a tin box that he could open with a paper clip and he took it ont
9 and photographed it, and put the case back in the drawer and

10 locked up and left.

LL But Generac

a
the a

Borless was a gal, a woman. And “she was

12 looking at one part of the school over there. And this guy

a
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— < 13 comes out the. back door. And as Maheu was coming down the
: La Stairs the students were coming up, with amatter of maybe
15 a split second timing.
16 Mr. Madigan. This wasn't Mendoz?
1? Mr. O'Connell. . 3
18 Mr. Wides. What period was this that we are talking

19 about?

Mr, O'Connell. This woulda have been about 1955,

20
21 Mr. Wides. And other than that, and the two incidents
22 involving female companioship, what other kinds of sensitive

23 things would he undertake? Was that in the period that you

24 were paying him 500 a month?

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25 IL. .. Mr. O'Connell. We stopped paying the 500 way back when he

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8 1 nature as opposed to routine?
9 :
S 2 Mr. O'Connell. We had word that they wanted to --
o
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3 wee reasonably certain -~ he@@eemauutecddady.s i
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& é 13 And this was all done by people that knew generally what
;
& they looked like.
= 14

Now, we got Bob to make that film.

15

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Een Mee gene ite gee peg ee age oe ee NE ee gg tte ed
Madetafilnvof.thedforeign ‘Leader’ when He-was~ ing

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oo | QRgEy-at the Soviets, was. that. the purpose?

Mr.O'Connell. scliudGn"e°know whether they khew that-the—
21 er : 7 y #

oo | GSsvists had made.the.film...But the purpose of the exercise f

xculated in his own country, or /

23 Was to. have..a film ci

2A meighboring countries, that would make him quite upset with ”
jneighborin intries, that ¥ Re n . :

ethe Soviets:

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163 *
3 1 Mr. Wides. nyOunheanEhey thought that the Ruseian
4 ee
i 3 Mr. O'Connell JiYes, to embarrass
F 4 Mr. Madigan. And that was accomplished as far as you know?
5 Mr. O'Connell. The film was made, but they never did
6 | release it, because things started to get better with the
9 leader, and they felt that they wouldn't use it.
8 Mr. Madigan. Were Agency facilities used by Maheu for
9 the production of this thing?
10 Mr. O'Connell . No. I hired-a small independent studio i
ll Los Angeles.

12 Mr. Madigan. And did Agency officials fly out there,

4
@ . 13 the ones that knew about the backdrop and all that? How was
: 14 that done? _a
15 Mr. O'Connell. It seems to me that they were just --
16 at this point I am not too sure whether they superimposed it,
7 I guess is the word, with that background. I am not so
18 sure at this point, it has been so long ago. That was away in
. 19 the mid-fifties.
: 20 Mr. Wides. Could we get back to the question that we had
: 21 started on, which was the files -and where they would exist?
: 20 You said that the operational files from all of your dealing
: 23 with him would be in the Family Jewels, because they were all
@: 24 |” sensitive admissions.
: 25 Mr. O'Connell. Yes.

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g
@ é 1 Mr. O'Connell. No.
g 2 Mr. Wides. Or Max Gonzales.
z 5 Mr. O'Connell. No.
é 4 Mr. Wides. While you were down there -- and this
5 May overlap the question that. Mr. Madigan asked before, but
6 I think it is a little more ~~ did you have any awareness of
v4 any other efforts apart from Mr. Verona by Cubans in connec-
8 tion with the Agency to try and assassinate Castro?
9 Mr. O'Connell. No, none whatsoever.
10 Mr. Wides. I don't have any other questions.
1l Mr. Madigan. In your operational activities with Mr.
4 12 Maheu, particularly in the New York area, did you ever have con
; 3
® ; 13 tact with a private investigator by the name of A. J.
is)
< 14 Woolston-Smith?
15 Mr. O'Connell. No, I never heard of him.
16 Mr. Wides. Do you know why there were two field
19 offices in New York, two iffices in Manhatten?
18 What was the difference?
19° Mr. O'Connell. The cover. (§ONE Was under Treasury covey
20 || Gand the other under’ Defense.
“el ; Mr. Wides. Were there two offices?
22 Mr. O'Connell. Why, they had them, it just grew like

23 Topsy. They had two offices in Washington, and they had two

24 offices in New York, And really the basis -- it was that that

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167
1 different type covers because of the type of work they were
2 doing.

5 Mr. Wides. What would the New York offices do as dis-

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4 tinct from the Manhattan offices, or vice versa?
5 Mr. O'Connell. Nothing. They were basically investigative

6 offices.

i Mr. Wides. They just happened to have two?

8 Mr.O'Connell. They had two. ¢

10 The Manhattan field office. And then they eventually merged.

11 Now they are over on (@aiecnanusnue
12 Mr. Wides. Thank you very much. That concludes the session,
13 And we appreciate your staying so long.

14 (Whereupon, at 1:25 p.m., the hearing was concluded.)

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