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Date:10/05/93
Page:1
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157-10002-10150

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AGENCY FILE NUMBER :

ORIGINATOR :

FROM :
TO:

TITLE :
TESTIMONY OF HOWARD.J. OSBORN

DATE
PAGES

: 08/28/75
: 96

SUBJECTS :

CIA

GIANCANA, SAM
‘MAHEU, ROBERT
CASTRO ;
ROSELLI, JOHNNY
HARVEY, WILLIAM
PAPICH, SAM
GAMBINO

DOCUMENT TYPE :
CLASSIFICATION :
RESTRICTIONS :
CURRENT STATUS :

DATE OF LAST REVIEW :

PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT
T .

REFERRED

P

09/30/93

OPENING CRITERIA. :

COMMENTS :

Box 255
Folder 8

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WARD & PAUL

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TESTI
1
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_ Mr. Osborn.
3
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5 Mr. Wallach.
P Mr. Debelius.
7 Frederick Avenue,
Mr. Wallac h.
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the Constitution,
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remain silent if
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And in addition,
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Mr. Osborn.
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Mr. Wallach.
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personal counsel
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; Mr. Osborn.
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te Mr. Osborn.
20 407
21.
Mr. Osborn.
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I am.
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Mr. Wallach.
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the examination.
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questions, I would like to ask if Mr. Debelius is here as your

Mr. Debelius' representation for you?

TOP SECRET 3

MONY OF HOWARD J. OSBORN, ACCOMPANIED

BY JOHN W. DEBELIUS, COUNSEL

My name is Howard J. Osborn,}

‘ A224) j

And Counsel, would you just state your name.
The name is John W. Debelius, 570 North
Gaithersburg, Maryland.

Once again, Mr. Osborn, as the Senator told

you, and as you have been told before, you do have the full

spectrum of rights available to you here that you have under

and in particular you do have the right to
you choose to as to any particular question.

you have the right to request that a Senator

be present if you desire that one be here.

Yes.

‘Very briefly, before Mr. Rhea begins his

today?

That is right.

I take it, then that the CIA in no way secured)

I wish they were paying him, but they are not.

I will ask Mr. Rhea to begin his segment of.

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Mr. Osborn. Not to the best of my recollection.

Mr. Rhea. That is all T have. Thank you very much.

(Off the record discussion.)

Mr. Wallach. Mr. Osborn, if you would, just very briefly,
on the subject matter that I am going to be directing your
attention to, the mail programs, the various mail programs that
you may have had knowledge of while you were with the CIA, I
would like to have you very briefly trace your career for us
in briefest terms with the Agency.

Mr. Osborn. All right.

I jointed the Agency .on 10 October 1974.

I worked in what was then known as the Office of Collection
and Dissemination, which concerned itself largely with the
collection of any information that had any foreign intelligence
import from other Government departments and agencies such as
the Department of Commerce, the Department of Interior, the
Department of the Treasury, and so forth. It was essentially
a liaison job.

I served there about a year and a half, and I then jointed

the Contact Division of the Office of Operations, which was

concerned with the selection of foreign intelligence information
from American businessmen and private organizations who had
business abroad. ;

I served there until roughly 1950, when I jointed the .

Office of Special Operations 4%,

ei1990 age 3 TOP SECRET

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position for about a year and a half,

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TOP SECRET 20

This division, as I recall, was the Plans Staff of the
Foreign Intelligence Division of the Clandestine Services which
is known as the Deputy Director of Plans, DDP.

I was promoted from that position to be Chief of the Plans
Staff.

I served there until 1955, roughly 1955, when I became

Assistant to the Inspector General of the Agency.

I served there until 19 -- correction. I think I joined

the Inspector General's staff in 1954, and I left there in late

I left there in September 1960 to take the position of

Deputy Chief of the. Soviet Russian Division in the Clandestine
Services of the Agency in Washington. I served in that
and then became Chief of

the Soviet Russian Division. And I held that position until

Septemb er of 1963, when I accepted the position of Deputy
Director of the Office of Security of the Agency.
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Mr. Osborn. To the best of my recollection, I believe they
were.

_ Mr. Wallach. Going back just a’step, I take it that you «..

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had no knowledge of any mail opening projects while you were

4
5 with the Inspector General's Office in 1954?
6 Mr. Osborn. To the best of my recollection, I don't

believe I was briefed on what was then HT LINGUA ac

Mr. Wallach. I think those just may have been different

)
names for the same operation, different divisions.
10 ; . ;
, Mr. Osborn. I think they were, yes, different code names.
il ;
3 ‘They changed them frequently.
a le
: Mr. Wallach.
a 13
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i Mr. Wallach. Did you have knowledge of the military's
16
mail operation over there, mail intercept operation?
17 ;
Mr. Osborn. I may have had, but I can't recall it spe-
18
3 cifically.
& 19 .
g Mr. Wallach. Did you subsequently gain knowledge of that
¢ 20° :
3 .mail intercept operation?
5 21
= Mr. Osborn. I have heard of it somewhere.
3 22 a 7 |
g Mr. Wallach. What is the nature of the operation that you
: 5 23 .
a g have heard of?
° 24 .
. Mr. Osborn. That the military was intercepting mail. I
25
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don't know the details.

Mr. Wallach. Have you heard of any arrangements whereby

the German authorities actually provide the mail?

Mr. Osborn. I can't recall that, honestly. I may have,
but I can't recall it specifically.

Mr. Wallach. In other words, would it be fair to say that
you are not familiar with that operation?

Mr. Osborn. I am not familiar at all with it.

Mr. Wallach. As I stated before, we have some documents
here, and there are a couple that I think are relevant. And I
would like you to review them later, but I want to get your
state of recollection now. I realize that it is based on
memory of events years ago, and things you read in the paper.
And in no way am I questioning the truth of your memory.

Mr. Osborn. I understand.

Mr. Wallach. Could you just give us an overview

of your understanding as to how the -- we will call it the

New York intercept, (inaecenm mre HT LINGUAL, whichever name
you want to use, developed in the fifties?

Mr. Osborn. I have no specific knowledge of this. It is
a little unusual, but even considering that this is one of the
things, of course, that we reported to Director Schlesinger,
I don't believe we reported this in any detail as to how it
started, because I am not really sure that any of us knew.

I don't recall exactly how it did start. But it was alsways

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TOP SECRET

which time I was briefed on this particular operation.

Mr. Wallach. Did you know whether or not the Postmaster

Mr. Osborn.

that he was.

General, the then Postmaster General, I am not sure who it
was in 1964, July, whoever it was in that position, had

knowledge of the fact that mail was opened in New York City?

To the best of my recollection, I never heard

Mr. Wallach. Had you ever heard either way about the

Attorney General, be it Robert Kennedy or any of his

predecessors?

Mr. Osborn.

Not. to the best of my recollection.

Mr. Wallach. When you visited New York on this inspection

trip that you described being possibly with Mr. White, do you

Fawonsni

recall whether or not Mr. Febriwi accompanied you out to the

facility?

Mr. Osborn.

that he did.

Mr. Wallach. Did you actually go out toga

~ JI can't recall specifically, but I am sure

fg during

the last three or four years of my tenure as

Director of Security. Prior to that it was right in the

office.

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TOP SECRET

ur. Dick. Were you tod that it was illegal?

Mr. OSborn. No. I assumed it was. You don't open mail
in peacetime.

Mr. Wallach. Did the Office of Security also run the
project in Washington (iftere

Mr. Osborn. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Wallach. Do you have any knowledge of the project? |

arrangements &(asOnee@rtennen
of it. But I feel sure that we did.

Mr. Wallach.

Mr. Osborn. The one I specifically remember was @

a. But I can't

And I am pretty sure it was€
recall the details, I really can't. But I have a recollectio
of this. Ang again, we were doing it just as a mechanism

again. It was the Clendestine Services that had to be calling

the shot of that.

we must have done.

Mr; Osborn. And if we did it Ae

it some other places.

Mr. Wallach. What cooperative arrangement GER@i@euncs

areyou aware of?

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Mr. Osborn. We had totally cooperative arrangement{

Mr. Wallach. With respect to mail?
Mr. Osborn. Anything.

Mr. Wallach. Could you go into that?

Mr. Osborn. I can't recall the details, but. I can recall

that we used to Gigi

Mr. Wallach. I am really just asking, not for techniques

or narcotics or training or things like that we are aware of,

provide in certain situations.

Mr. Osborn. I have a recollection that they did cooperate
with us in this respect. And I am sorry that I can't be more
clear on the details.

oe

Mr. Wallach. Was there a particular point of contact

Mr. Osborn. Yes.
Mr. Wallach. Who was that?
Mr. Osborn. The point of contact that we remember the

Suaanecmbavyemiuens, that I remember.

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to organize my own thoughts. And I would be happy to destroy

Sino see talengand many other departments.

TOP SECRET

Mr. Osborn. He was a Deputy é

He had a very high position GiRGIEn eee
his name. . :

Mr. Wallach. I note your attorney is taking notes. May
I ask if those will be provided to the CIA?

Mr. Debelius. If they will be provided to the CIA it

wouldn't be by me, Mr. Wallach. Really, I am doing it here

them in your presence.
Mr. Wallach. I have absolutely no problem. I was just
wondering if you were going under instructions.
Mr. Debelius. Could we go off the record just a moment?
Mr. Wallach. Surely.

(Off the record discussion.)

Mr. Wallach. Do you recall anybody else 4.
the Agency had contact with on a regular basis?

Mr. Osborn. I can't recall any other, but I am sure there
were others. |

Mr. Wallach. Do you recall any generic types of operations

cooperated with?

that iia

Mr. Osborn. No. But to the best of my recollection, there

was very little that we would askii®umhione

mooeoreucs ~The same is true of Gifmemcms

Mr. Dick. Are you familiar with Qijseieumomenatoncmmer

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operations that terminated in the mid-sixties that involved

from other countries to the US?

gopagamds,

siinterceptions Gig
Mr. Osborn. I seem to have heard of this, but I can't ="

recall it specifically. It sounds familiar to me.

22

Mr. Dick. Do you recall whether in any of thos@M@n@ietts

programs the CIA might have received ieaieieE

Mr. Osborn. Not specifically. And I can clarify one

thing for you now. On this Dulles thing, I am sorry. It was

in the same context.of my discussion with you -- if you ask
me specifically if I knew, I would say no, but I seem to

recall that they did cooperate with us in the matter of

Bclipsontmtemoouenes.. I can't remember a specific instance,

but I recall this.
Mr. Dick. Is that the extent of your recollection?

Mr. Osborn. Yes, really. But this (%

rings a loud bell in my mind.

Mr. Wallach. Aside from the mail opening projects which
have publically come to light in recent months -- and I will
go through them very briefly now -- there were the San ‘eo...
Francisco project, which was repeated two or three times, the

project in New Orleans which you have mentioned before in the

sosi900 oaye di | Top SECRET |

dni4 a , :
| TOP SECRET 8
3 1 Communist China from San Francisco.
é ; I said, does Mr. Karamessines approve this?
: _ whey said,ves.
ra 3
5 4 I said, does Mr. Helms approve it -- and they
5 said, we can assume that Mr. Karamessines has got Mr. Helms!
6 approval.
7 And I said, I can't assume it. I will have to get it
3 from him directly.
9 And I did. I sent one of my fellows, a senior fellow
10 named Jack Turton. I made arrangements through Mr. Cotter
an | “believe, to send him out to San Francisco to talk to ©
- the Chief Postal Inspector in San Francisco, and I believe
2 “43 they set.it up so that representatives of the Far Fast
é
i aa Division and the Technical Services Division, not the security
1s people -- I can't recall, but I believe that they were to pose
6 as Postal Inspectors, with access of certain categories of
mail from Communist China to this country, for the purpose of
wots te photographing exteriors, examining it for possible eviddnce
Ook 19 of censorship,--but I did not know that they were going to open
: 920 it, I had novidéa they opened the mail. And I found out
3 ot socially and personally from one of the people involved about
$
Z a year ago that they opened the mail.
z 22
2 93 Mr, Wallach. Who was that from?
: ; Mr. Osborn. ‘A friend ofmine whowas involved,
i ms who is retired from the Agency, a fellow by the name of Rod] J
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a 2 Mr. Wallach. Was Mr. Giger actually involved in the
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< 3

i 4 Mr. Osborn. Yes, he was a part of it.

Mr. Wallach. Do you know Mr .qNENeweie

2,
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Re

Mr. Osborn. I am sure there was one, but I never met

anybody named@Mbatenews

2
8 Mr. Wallach. Are you saying, Mr. Osborn, that the
9 operation you received approval from Mr. Helms for was not
“40 a mail opening operation? © | ~
11 Mr. Osborn. That is right. It was a mail cover. - =
; 12 operation.
c 13 Mr. Wallach. Would it be fair to say, then, that in
‘ 14 gaining that approval from you you were actually misled?
15 Mr. Osborn. Yes, indeed -- I wasn't misled, but per-
16 haps it seemed when I got out there and found out how easy
Wy it was to get it -- but I don't know, I wasn't told that
is they were to open mail. That isn't the circumstances
19 under which I briefed Mr. Helms.
: 20 | Mr. Wallach. Did you discuss this project with Mr.
J ;
F 21 Cotter? .
§ 22 Mr. Osborn. Yes, I discussed it with him, I think, in
§
: 23 arranging the original meeting with Mr. Turton. I don't know
EB 24 whether Mr. Turton went over and .talked to Mr. Cotter directly,
: 95 or whether Mr. Cotter just made the entre with the San Francisdo
3

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In other words, I am sure they didn't go to Mr. Cotter
every time they wanted something on a day-to-day relationship.

Mr. Wallach. I have just given Mr. Osborn a copy of
a memorandum dated December 24, 1974, which is in fact after
the time he left on sick leave, and: there is no reason to
believe that he was seen it. I would just like him to re-
view it and possibly refresh his recollection.

Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

—

Mr. WAllach. Back on the record. ™

cod

5 oa
=

I think I misspoke when I gave Mr. Osborn a memo. It
is a three-page undated memo captioned "Project West Pointer."
I believe it was recently prepared. |

But in any event I would like to call your attention

to the last paragraph on the third page which states:

"The main difference between EREUMT IE DPand West Pointer
is that the file shows specific reference to a statement by |
the Postal authorities that mail not to go out of Post Office
control. While mail was opened and photographed by Agency

personnel in New York City under «Rm

> and not specific
post office approval was given, neither is there written order
not to do so. In West Pointer the opening of mail was
contrary to specific orders that mail was not to out of post
office control."

Mr. Osborn. There you are.

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TOP SECRET 64
Mr. Wallach. . Is that also your understanding, really?
Mr. Osborn. Yes, very definitely.. This fellow who is
a close friend of mine -- and I don't want to necessarily put
him on the spot, but he is retired. and is in Florida --
came back and spent time with me at my home. And at one
juncture, discussing such things as now, the senate and the
House, and what is going to happen, he said, well, you know ,
you remember that West Coast operation.

And ft said, yes.

And he said, you didn't know we opened the mail,

weg id

did you?
And I said, no, I didn't know you opened the mail.

That was the first time I ever heard they opened it.

Mr. Dick. Are you referring to Mr. @@
Mr. Osborn. Yes.

Mr. Dick. What division was Mr.

Mr. Osborn.

Mr. Wallach. I take it by your actions -- this might
be speculation, and if you don't want to answér, feel free
not to.

Mr. Osborn. If I do, I will establish that it is
speculation.

Mr. Wallach. You would not have approved the West
Coast operation if you knew it involved mail opening?

Mr. Osborn. I would not. -have approved it -- the

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Director might have approved it, but.it wasn't the way
I briefed it, and it wasn't my understanding with Mr. Cotter.
Mr. Wallach. In other words, you did give Mr. Cotter
assurance that this was only a mail cover type of operation?
Mr. Osborn. That was the understanding I had with Mr.
Cotter, to the best of my recollection.
Mr. Wallach. Have you subsequently discussed the
West Coast operation with Mr. Cotter? |
Mr. Osborn. Yes, I have. Since I am under oath,

I had lunch with Bill Cotter and Marv Gentile on Tuesday of

ae

this week, and we naturally discussed this stuff. We went
over the fact that he recalled me, and that both of us were
instrumental in terminating the New York project. And I have
forgotten the exact context, but the San Francisco thing

came up. And I told him, I didn't even know the mail was

being opened until I talked to Rerauaen4

He said, you didn't?

And I said, no.

He said, well, it was. He said, I just found out about
it. I presume through testimony or something.

But that was the essence of my discussion.

Mr. Wallach. . Did Mr, Cotter talk to you about any
FBI mail opening projects?

Mr. Osborn. No, he did not. We were’in a public res-

taurant. We doubletalked.

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3 1 you have any knowledge of it?
x 2 Mr. Osborn. The first time I ever saw the Huston Plan
: 5 was in the newspapers.
i 4 Mr. Wallach. Didn't Mr. Helms know that mail was being
5 opened in New York in 1971?
P Mr. Osborn. Of course he did.
7 Mr. Wallach. Did you know why Mr. Helms would have asked
3 the President for authority to open mail in 1971, then?
9 Mr. Osborn. I have no idea.”
10 Mr. Wallach. Calling your attention to a memorandum dated
uu February 16, 1973, captioned "Visit to Headquarters re SRE
1p BQENGEE ,” I will ask you to quickly read that over.
2 Mr. Osborn. I must have been Iden 18°
8 13
: 14 Mr. Wallach. The first question would be, do you recall
1s a Meeting in your office at which you notified Mr. Issaeff
16 that the project would be terminated? |
Lo Mr. Osborn. I don't think I dealt with Issaeff. I think
18 “I would have dealt with one of my people. But it could have
19 been Issaeff. I don't know. I remember suspending it..
: 90 |: Mr. Wallach. And do you remember telling Mr. Issaeff in
: 9 words or substance that he should not tell anyone on the CI
: * Staff that you wanted to tell the Director of the CIA Staff
z 22 ;
ul yourself?
; 23
5 Mr. Osborn. I very probably would have. I had very close
i - relationships with Jim Angleton professionally.
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memorandum from Chief, CI."

Mr. Wallach. Calling your attention to the first page,
you stated this is Mr. Angleton's handwriting?

Mr. Osborn. Yes.

Mr. Wallach. I realize that most of it is illegible but
I ask if you can read the line that begins with Osborn.

Mr. Osborn. "Osborn said he was under instructions from
Colby to the effect that no pressure should bé put on Cotter."

Mr. Wallach. Do you recall discussing that with Mr.

Colby or Mr. Angleton?

Mr. Osborn. No. But I do remember talking to Bill Colby
about the position that Cotter was in, and he was always
extremely sympathetic. And I don't know what pressure anybody
could put on Cotter.

Mr. Wallach. I believe you briefly touched on this before.
How was the operation actually terminated?

Mr. Osborn. I called in Stan Ense, I believe, who was

then Deputy Director of Security for Investigations and

Operational Support, and I said@Sn@peminger’ is terminated as
of now. I think it was in the early afternoon. And that was
the end of it.

Mr. Wallach. In other words, it was then Mr. Colby under
Schlesinger who terminated it?

Mr. Osborn. Yes.

Mr. Wallach. And I take it --

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