157-10011-10024) | 2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992 |

JFK Assassination System Date: 7/30/201

Identification Form

AGENCY: SSCIA
RECORD NUMBER: — 157-10011-10024
RECORD SERIES: TRANSCRIPT
AGENCY FILE NUMBER :
Document Information
ORIGINATOR:  SSCIA
FROM: COLBY, WILLIAM E.
TO:
TITLE: SSCI TRANSCRIPT, TESTIMONY OF DCI WILLIAM COLBY .
DATE: 05/21/1975
PAGES: 113
SUBJECTS :
: CASTRO
SSCI TRANSCRIPT, TESTIMONY OF DC] WILLIAM COLBY
OPERATION MONGOOSE
CUBA
DOCUMENT TYPE: PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT.
CLASSIFICATION : — Unclassified
RESTRICTIONS : — Consulted; 1B; Donor Restricted
CURRENT STATUS:  Redact
DATE OF LASTREVIEW: 05/04/1994
OPENING CRITERIA :
COMMENTS : SSC] Box 239, Folder 14

v9.1
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Agency Information

Page 1

/57 - 100 1/
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{ Vol. 2

® he United States Senate \
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CIA HAS NO OBJECTION TO oo on Sav
DECLASSIFICATION AND/OR ey a
RELEASE OF THIS DOCUMENT ; °
AS SANITIZED Report of Proceedings soustiegia ees

Be 4 [ley

Hearing held before
Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations

with Respect to Intelligence Activities ;

~ Record Number 157-10011-10024 —

PY COMMITTEE HEARING

SSCI Box 239, Folder 14

Wednesday, May 21, 1975

Washington, D. C.

(Stenotype Tape and Waste turned over
to the Committee for destruction)

WARD & PAUL

410 FIRST STREET, S. E.
WASHINGTON, D. C. 20003


Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
tv)

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410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003

- sais, "of the evidence available". And this is the evidence |

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the first man contacted by Mr. Maheu, worked through a
Cuban exile leader. And he offered -- and he said that he
could do something of this nature provided he got some funds
and the assistance. And he was supported in this regard.
and I think again we have some doubts as to the accuracy of
his reporting.

Mr. Schwarz. | In November 1961 did Mr. Bissell indstruct
a William Harvey to take charge of the gambling syndicate |
operation designed to kill Fidel Castro? Page 3 of Mr. Greer's|
report, which is at the beginning of your report.

Mr. Colby. I believe so, yes.

Yes. That is what our evidence says, the summary

available in 1963. And there have been some minor changes in
some of the details of this summary , very minor changes.
But the essence of this report is still roughly accurate, I
believe. .

Mr. Schwarz. Mr. Harvey -- was Mr. Harvey the man that

had hired an agent in order to kill Lmumba?

Mr. Colby. Mr. Harvey was the head of Staff D, Staff

HW 50955 Docld: 32203792 Page 4

Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
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hace fox that pucposp And there are some very obscure

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sor and in the process, you obviously work up
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some people who are able to do this kind of work, which is
quite different from the normal life style of most of. us.

Mr. Harvey had been a very venturesome officer in the
past. He was responsible for the Berlin tunnel.. And he was
sent down to take this job. And he assumed as part of it the
capability of -- he was given by Mr. Bissel this chore of

carrying on this particular operation as well.

Mr. Schwarz. Had he been the person who had, in
connection with the abortive effort to kill Mr. Lmumba,
hired an agent for that purpose?

Mr. Colby. I have forgotten whether hehired him. He t (BY

io Rm ra Cee SOD. Wee eae
4, lnc ne o_o ee ee Nes a

ands te.
references that an additional assignment was to look into the
possible assassination of Mr. Lmumba. The evidence is

that he went down to what is now Kinshasa, Elizabethville in

1960, stayed there a few weeks, and left in October, I

believe. And then Mr, Lmumba was killed thereafter in a totally
‘separate set of circumstances in which we had nothing te do.
There is some indication that a CIA officer who was asked

to have something to do with this particular job said he did

not want to do it.

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3 l was not advised of the assassination activities. Quite likely

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pa 2 -I cannot say that for sure, but I know the compartmentation

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Ee: 3 system was such.

F 4 Chairman Church. What was the name of the CIA agent who
5 was given the responsibility for liaison between the CIA and
6 the Warren Commission?
” Mr. Colby. To my knowledge it is Mr. Raymond Rocca.
8 Chairman Church. Where is it now?
9 ; Mr. Colby. He retired at the end of December of last year.
10 He remained working for us for a few months. ‘I think he is
1 retired. I think he is retired. I believe he is still in

: 12 the Washington area.

3 | :

x 13 Mr. Knoche. Yes, he is still working with us.

- :

a ; . .

@: 14 Mr. Colby. Still working with us to help on the transi-
3
. 15 tion of the whole counter intelligence program.

16 Chairman Church. Why did he retire?
WW Mr. Colby. That was the Angleton case, Mr. Chairman, and
18 the facts of that case were that I had had some professicnal
19 differences in_thé organization with Mr. Angleton as to the

8 20 way the counterintelligence business was run

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u 23 Directorate and of the Agency. We had debated this on various

5 24 occasions in the past. I did reorganize that staff in 1973 an

3 25 took a number of functions away from it. The liaison with the

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our other divisions. We debated this and discussed it and fT

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PBL for instance, and a couple of other things.

Also, I believed that there was a undue degree of compart

mentation of that staff, that it needed more interchange with

set as my time limit for this discussion the end of Decemher

because there were some very substantial retirement benefits

Thay

that people would loose if they stayed after that point.

us

unfortunately the Seymour Hirsh article of December 22nd came

Ki

to our attention before it was actually published, and sc

. brought Mr. Angleton up and said that I was going to make

into the Head of the Counterintelligence Staff. I said I woul

offer him a post of tying together some counterintelligence

doctrine, he could stay working with us. He did not have te |
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Phone (Aréa 202) 544-6000

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410 First Street, S.E4 Washington, 0.C, 20003
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Chinese Communists subsequently blamed the Chiness Nationalists

and ths

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US for sabotaging the aircraft. The aircraft employes

|
|
had fled to Taiwan. Ne had nothing to do with that incident |
and frankly heard about it after it occurred. ’ |
In the fall of 1956, a senior Chinese Nationalist ueciotal
informed an officer of CIA that a Chinese National pianned tc |
assassinate Chou En Lai during his visit to Cambodia in - |
November '56 and had been thwarted by the Cambodian arrest ot |
|

the Chinese Nationalist cfficer sent to Fhnom Penh to supervise
1

the attempt. We learned of this after it had happened and we

had nothing te do with it.

These are two that ware separate.

Alsce I was asked to look at the photographs of Howard nant

and Sturgis that appsared in Newsweek some years ago. We

obtained this photograph from the FBI last night about 5 oteleckl.

We had not had it before. We had a copy of the Newsweek

edition. ,
These are photegraohs of Howard Hunt in 1949, 1950 and

L

$61. This is the only photograph we have of Mr. Sturgis.
It is taken out of the Newsweek.

We nave had ne connection with Mr. Sturgis and so we have

(HW 50955 Docld:32203792 Page 6

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8 - | individuals in ik.
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8 2 | Senator Schweiker. Did you get the other photograph, the
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3 a Mr. Colby. I don't have that with me. It ig in the
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5 _ Warren Commission published report. It is in there.
6 Senator Schweiker. It is in there?
9 Mr. Colby. Yes. It was cropped slightly in order to
8 conceal where it was taken but it was --
9: Senator Schweiker. It is in the Warren Commission?
10 Mr. Colby. Yes, it is in the Warren Commission.
7 Just one additional matter.
Chairman Church. Just one thing I would like to say to
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Mr. Colby. Right.
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Chairman Church. And I think you should prepara to
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a Mr. Colby. Right. In our lexicon it doesn't count as a
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them.

Mr. Harvey was given the resvonsibility of this by Mr
Bissel and originally it continued as a Separate action from
the Castro operation, but Mr. Harvey was also given that
vesponsibility, and for all intents and purposes thay becema
weddsd.

Mr. Helms was the person who formally approved 2R Rifle

as a project. ZR Rifle had a dual purpose that has not seen

clarified by our inquiry. It apparently was in fact used for

the stated purposes, as far as organizational activities went

Mr. Healms,.when hz

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approved the project, authorized accounting on certif

which meant that rather than the usual vouchers supporticg

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expenditures, that the officer involved would simply certify

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da project amount of soma dollars, $7509 ~ $19,099 --

some of it to include the salary of an adant, some to includs

Rifl
familiar with the Castro operation.
Me. Schwarz. Bscausea of the dual purpose of Rifle, Rifl
means both, rifle files anid used rifles?
Mr

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:32203792 Page 10 ; some

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2 Ss 63
molt. 5 | ‘TOP SECREI
Thomas j
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3 1 Mr. Schwarz. November 1961?
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as) of the dates, So Mr. Bissel would have known at that time.

6 But I am not sure after that.

. 9 Chairman Church. Helms succeeded Mr. Bissel as chief

8 of operations?

9 Mr. Colby. Deputy Director of Plans. |
10 Chairman Church. Deputy Director for Plans. |
Ll Your record shows that Helms had knowledge of the ZR Rifle |
a 12 | operation, which, among other things, was to develop an onscutiy
z | | |
is 13 | capability -- whatever that means. Presumably that means a |
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é 14 | capability to conduct an assassination if and when authorized |
15 || by proper authority? |
16 Mr. Breckinridge. That is my understanding. |
17 | Chairman Church. Is that your understanding? |
18 Mr. Breckinridge. Yes, sir. |
. . . . . {
19 | Chairman Church. Do your records show that, or is that _ |
a “99 | based upon what has been revealed through your interrogation?
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3 | |
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Phone (Area 202) 544-6000

WARD & PAUL

HY 40955

410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003

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| a multi-purpose operation emer

‘executive action.

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Chairman Church. Senator Hart.

ZR Rifle, I think you testified or your associate said this was

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Senator Hart of Colorado. Mr.. Colby, in connection with |
1

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Swafand the |

development of the capability of what euphemistically is called

In your professional judgment, and with your history of

your background in the Agency, does it make any sense to you that

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a major operation, a major intelligence gathering weston

oncmccry would be mounted under the direction of a man

Eaerceeere

‘gorse
about whom all I know is that Mr. Harvey has a packcround of
something like a soldier of fortune, and funded at the level,
1 should say, of $7500 to $10,000?

, ling" Cotes ware in Af

fact an internal cover for what was explicitly an assassination

Does it not suggest to you that Asean

operation with unlimited, non-voucher financial capability?

Mr. Colby. No, not that it is purely a cover.
In the first place, Mr. Harvey had a very successful tour
in Berlin where he ran the Berlin tunnel operation, which was

one of our major successful intelligence operations.

anne en ner

Mr. Harvey was a very colorful figure who had his lifestyle,

which is different than some others, but he had been very

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|He was in the assignment of Chief of the FI Division staff.

Phone (Area 202) 544-6000

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Now, the thing that puts it together with this "capability",

9 llexecutive action, is the high degree of compartmentation of
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16 ‘You also are dealing with some very venturesome people

19 So, given you have a man who had some geod technical
so |experience, who is a venturesome type himself and is running a
21 | program which is not too far off the reguivements of high

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22 | -- savtmentation, and a very hich risk kind of cperation, and
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HW 50955 Docid

232203792

TOP SECRET

as well as this other activity.

Now, in the lifestyle at the time,

one, this gets back into the recordkeeping
discussing.
done.
but to say that [Gnley

probably an unwarranted conclusion.

Senator Hart of Colorado.

iof $7,500 to $10,000?

operation. In other words,

Staff officers,

the figure one way or the other.

rn a staff
| This might not have been the only such
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asSaSSination: project
too,

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ator Hart of Colorado.

Mr. Colby. I find it hard to say that

mount of money invelved. I think you set

where additional money would be put into ei

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That is a perfectly proper hypothesis,

92

not mentioning the second

that we have been

It was not to be put on the record although to he

it seems to me,

What about the level of funding

I think it is too

it is

Mr. Colby. . That is not very much money for that kind of
an operation.

Senator Hart of Colorado... Precisely.
Little.
| Mr. Colby. No. For a capability of that nature,

you use your own

You may hire an acent or something, but I don't

think you can draw much conclusion from the actual number on

project.

would cost you more money than tnat,

that is the only
inte a situaticn

ther of those kinds

“You know,


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TOP SECRET 89

Chairman Church. Before you do, would you just explain

tween CIA and Giancana ard

ip

exactly what the relationship b

Mahesu was because that is not clear in my mind.

Gl

Woutd you daveloo for the Committss that whols relationshin

Mr. Breckinridge. Robert Mahau used to work for tbs

FBI and he resigned from the FBI and opensd a privat

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tive firm hers in Washington and CIA used him from time to

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Chairman Church. ‘hat kind cf sunport activities?

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ir. Breckinridge. Oa ona occasion he obtained a famala

11) companion ES

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15 Mr. Breckinridge. In the earlv days -- and this bacomes

WARD & PAUL

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who knaw him decidad to put him on €@ retainer in the Office

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of Security, which they did for awhils, until hse was 509

i” successful he said he no longsar nesded the retainer, which hs

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didn't de much to earn. He latar got involved rseprssacting

an embarrassment. As nearly as I can reconstruct, the peonls
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HY 50955 Docld:32203792 Page 15

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Mr. Schwarz. I would like to pick up on the discussion

Chairman Church. Mr. Schwarz has five minutes more, and
we will c.nclude, and I would lik: to ask the Committee <6 stay
on for ten more minutes for an executive session.

Mr. Schwarz. In the discussion we had on the use of

criminal elements, we have dealt with the Castro operation.

In the middle of the book sipplied to us by Mr. Breckinridge |

earlier this week, there is a discussion about the Lumumba
operation, and the Agent Q. J. Win.

Now, is it a fact that Q. 3. Win was the agent, or asset,
however you would refer to him, who apparently was considered

for the effort to assassinate Lumumba, which never tock place;

f.is that right?

.. Mr. Colby. Yes, sir.

Mr. Schwarz. Now, is it accurate that Q. J. Win operated

Mr. Colby. This is what is reported, and it is quite
possible,

Mr, Breckinridge. ‘the record indicates that.

Mr. Schwarz. And is it further so that one of the CIA

officers who first met Q. J. Winfe

Mr. Colby. Yes, that is what it says.

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