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TITLE :
TRANSCRIPT/REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS/AND EXHIBITS AS LISTED

DATE : 01/10/76
PAGES : 96 ,

SUBJECTS :
TESTIMONY OF E. HOWARD HUNT

DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL- DOCUMENT
CLASSIFICATION : T
RESTRICTIONS : REFERRED
CURRENT STATUS : P
DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 10/01/93

OPENING CRITERIA :

COMMENTS : _ «
BOX 248-10

[R] - ITEM IS RESTRICTED

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ete ee

Sa SSCI EG. 243 -1@
state of Florida }

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SS:

Cou
AFFIDAVIT

E. HOWARD HUNT, JR., being duly sworn, deposes and

says:

L. On January 10, 1976, I was examined by Frederick D.

Baron, a counsel for the Senate Select Committee to Study
Governmental Operations With Respect to Intelligence Activities.

1976, I was examined by both Mr. Baron and Howard

At

Qn January 11,
Liebengood, another counsel for the Senate Select Committee.

both of these examinations I was accompanied by my counsel, Randall Cc.

@ Coleman, and advised of my Constitutional rights.

2. I have read the transcripts of both of the above-
mentioned examinations, and I hereby affirm that my testimony

therein is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

= = rd G Lee Lb , e
; E. Howard Hunt, Jr.

Sworn to before me this Sixth

day of February, 1976.

AAS C. ZZ, aide

@
. Notary Public
My Com-s'-ion Expires Jan. 4, 1977

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Unauthorized Disclosure Subject
to Criminal Sanctions

ee Che United States Senate ae te

ea wy ao wera 7
To? wy
‘ lb te eee al
‘ Report of Proceedings
ERVIN O RES

on S/7)? _—-&

_a+__—*
Hearing held before

Senate Select Committee to Study Governmental

Operations With Respect to Intelligence Activities

CIAHAS NO OBJECTION TO ~~
DECLASSIFICATION AND/OR
RELEASE OF THIS DOCUMENT

AS SANITIZED *
wd-4-AF a

ONG
ie

Saturday, January 10, 1976

oe

Washingma, D.C

(Stenotype Tape and Waste turned over
to the Committee for destruction)

Tee CRAs op
wl Couicg WARD & PAUL

410 FIRST STREET, 8. Be _
re WASHINGTON, D. C. 20008"

(208) 544-6000

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my understanding was that Colonel Pash had been deing business,

TOP SECRET 2s) "7

might have directed me to this particular unit.

I was told that somewhere within the overall political

|| and psychological staff there was located a man with a small

: office. This man's name was Pash, Colonel Boris Pash, and

let us say, with the Agency in West Germany for quite awhile. |
I sought out Colonel Pash, I was directed to his office

and found sitting with him another Agency officer named @itqatcr?

4]

I'm not sure whether it isa

Mr. Baron. It's a Greek name. GReveeiGes is his correct

first name, but he goes by

Mr. Hunt. Very good. But in any case, he was known

throughout my career asJ And I waa at that

point on, let's say, a search mission to determine whether the

alleged capability of Colonel Pash in wet affairs, which is

how it was referred to, that ia liquidations, would have any
relevance to our particular problem of the Albanian dis-
appointments. |
Mr, Baron. By liquidations, you mean assassinations?
Mr. Hunt. Aasassinations., Assassinations, kidaappings,
removals, let's say.

This had been alleged to me. Seo I spoke to Colonel Pash

‘Ws presence. I explained the problem to hin,

although at that juncture I'm quite sure that we had not

identified the Albanian suspect. Se we were talking hypethetically

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earlier, that when I first inquired around for the location of

Colonel Pash and his assistant, the reaction I encountered

was a rather jesting one, and the impression I gained was

very little.

| here were a couple of men who were drawing salaries and doing

And so when Colonel Pash seemed reluctant to become

involved in responding affirmatively to my questions, my

_inference was that Colonel Pash and @feangue? could well not

have such a capability but for purposes of employment and

status, this was the job they had. But they didn't want

anyone to call upon them to activate their particular

abilities.

Now that was my impression, and I was a little disgusted

by it. I think I talked to the Chief of the PP staff later,

who was of course well aware of the Albanian problem and I

said I didn't get any satisfaction from Pash, but it doesn't

really make any difference because we don't have the name

of the suspected individual.

Mr. Baron.

Just to stop here for a second and clear up

some of these details, were you under the impression that what

you called wet affairs, assassinations, kidnappings, or other

removals from the scene of troublesome individuals was the

primary function of this unit that Pash and aicacua were

running?

Mr. Hunt.

Bocld: salonsse Page 5

Yes,

In fact the only. -As far as I knew, they

TOP SECRET

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TOP SECRET 12

had no other function. If they had another function, I was

| never made aware of what it was.

Do you know anything about Colonel Pash's background?

Mr. Baron. I know a bit, but if you think that there are
relevant details to put on the background, go ahead.

Mr. Hunt. Well, I had not thought of Colonel Pash for
years until I began reading a hook called "Lawrence and Oppen-
heimer," and I saw quite a few references to Colonel Pash, I
had known previously that he had been associated during the
war with the Manhattan Project and that he had a security
background. And as I believe I touched on briefly before, it

was my impression that Pash had been active a couple of years

| at least before I knew him in West Germany with the sort of

thing that we had been discussing so far today.

Mr. Baron. What kinds of stories had you heard about
Pash's previous activities?

Mr. Hunt. Kidnappings mostly.

Mr. Baren. And where were those?

Mr. Hunt. West Germany and West Berlin.
Mr. Baren. Do you know the names of any of the victims

of the kidnapping or any of the people involved other than

Pash and 3?
Mr. Hunt. I do not.
Mr. Baron. And are you aware from whatever source of

any assassination planning or attempts that Pash was involved

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te
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Mr. Hunt. I am not.

Mr. Baron. Does your answer include not only the period
; of time before you talked with Colonel Pash but after you
talked with Colonel Pash?

i . Mr. Hunt. Yes, sir.

I might add that I was rather briefly at CIA headquarters

at that time and within a very short period of time after I

Guatemala project, the overthrow of Guatemala.

Mr. Baron. Is that the reason why you did not follow up
on the problem with this particular suspected double agent
after not receiving satisfaction from Colonel Pash?

Mr. Hunt. That carcainly could have been one reason.

On the other hand, I was chief of, I can see I'm really going

to have to get into a lot more here. This is going to be

dry and dull stuff for you.

who was very upset about the disappearance and loss of all

poeta:a2Hozaie Page 7 TOP SECRET

of his partisans in the operationa that the Agency was conducting.

intelligence or espionage aspect, which {is not my function, but

had had my interview with Colonel Pash, I was transferred to the

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Bt pees 2 Se

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Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
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parachuted to their

al

5 | deaths in Albania? And that was my introduction to the whole
6 | scene in West Germany, where the balance of his retainers were
5 | being held by the CIA. Well, not being held, but where they
g | were being housed and trained for Albanian operations.
9 Mr. Baron. Can you explain the term "retainer"?

Mr. Hunt. Well, I understood that when he finally got
out of Albania, that he brought with him what I can best
describe as retainers. That is bodyguards, members of his

personal staff, probably some relatives. I think he had

WARD & PAUL
|
Lae)

four or five sisters with him, But the able-bodied portion

14
is of those loyalists who came out with him we had largely taken
16
i7
18 | became apprehensive. a
: 19 Se that was my interest in what was happening to the
: 29 | Albanians that we parachuted in Se I had no
i 21 functional counter-espionage interest in the affair. This
: 22 would have been handled and this was handled by the Chief
: 23 of Counter-espionage for the Division.
@ : 24 Mr. Baron. Who would that have been at the time?
° 25 Mr. Hunt. .I can't remember at this point.

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Mr. Baron. But that would be the person primarily
responsible for taking care of this double agent problem?

Mr. Hunt. That’s correct.

Mr. Baron, Are you aware of what happened with that
suspected double agent?

Mr. Hunt. I have no idea because, as I may have indicated
previously off the record, it became apparent some years later
that the unfortunate fate of our Albanian agents was linked
far more closely to the revelations of Kim Philby, the
Soviet agent who was in direct liaison with us in Washington
and in Great Britain, rather than any penetration, although
the possibility of a penetration was of course always there.
But I don't think that anybody was ever focused.

Again, I left for Latin American affairs. I left the
Division about that time and I really never heard about it

Bthe Albanian chief, departed for

Southeast Asia, and the whole sort of complex of knowledgeable
people was broken up through normal transfers and special
activities like the Guatemala project.

Mr, Baron. Was gin Di mur knowledeable about your

approach to Colonel Pash?
Mr. Hunt. Very likely he was, yea. I don't think I

would have discussed anything with Colonel Pash about the

matter without talking Logie @about it.

Mr. Baron. Who else would have known that you approached

TQR SECRET

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Colonel Pash with the idea in mind of seeing if an assassination

or a kidnapping couldn't be arranged?

Pnone (Area 202) §44-6000
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° Mr. Hunt. The then Chief of Foreign Intelligence and
é 4 Counter-Intelligence for the Division. And I think now that that

I think he wore both

6 | hats. He had both foreign intelligence responsibility and
° the counter-intelligence responsibility. And I might have told |
8 the division chief about it, although it was not, it had not
a ‘achieved such stature at that point that I would have

10 necessarily talked to the Division Chief, who I believe at
11} that time was John Richardson of later Vietnam fame.

le It's also possible that the Division Chief in that era

WARD & PAUL

13 | was John Baker, now deceased, who left that division to

14 || become Chief of the PP staff, and that would have been a

15 || normal follow through for me if I had discussed it with John
16 || Baker, my direct Chief, and then to have discussed it with
17 | Bim when he was my staff chief in the overall political and

18 | psychological staff.

19 Mr. Baron. Anyone else who would have known about your

20 || approach to Colonel Pash or about --
al Mr. Hunt. Or his function.
Le Mr. Baron. Yes, that Colonel Pash was considered to have

23 assassinations as one of his functions.

410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003

24 Mr. Hunt. We had a Colonel ‘Buffington who at that time

25! was a member of the PP gfaff, the overall PP staff, and I think

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that he would hav e been knowledgeable about it.

Mr. Baron. Was that Milton Buf fington?~

Mr. Hunt. Yes. I think he later went on and had a career
in the Office of Securitv. “Milton Buffington, ves.

Mr. Baron. Anyone else?

Mr. Hunt. Yes, I have the names of three men who unfor-
tunately are dead. I could give those names, though. Mr. C.

Tracy Barnes, Mr. John Baker ,|who I've already mentioned, and

jee hese men were all at one time or another

chiefs of the Agency's PP staff.
Another man now living to the best of my knowledge who

might well have had knowledge of Pash's function was the

then-chief of the Economic Warfare staff of the PP staff and nbs

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TOP SECRET 7

name was Gates Lloyd. He later became the Deputy Director for

Support of the Agency.

There's a man named Lec who was in the
Psychological Warfare Branch of the PP staff. I believe at
that time there was an International Organizations Branch
which later became the International Organizations Division,
then headed by Cord Myer, Jr., and his Deputy at that time was
Tom Braden, the now-columnist whose wife has just ascended to
the Executive Office Building. There were members of the

Labor Branch, and I'm trying to think of that branch of office

that was down the hall.

There was a labor branch. The people in there might know.

There was a lady lawyer named Carol somebody who was very
knowledgeable about what was going on in that area.

Mr. Baron. Knowledeable about Pash's activities?

Mr. Hunt. Well, in the sense that when you have an
adjoining office, you usually pretty much know what the other
fellow is doing. Just in that sense, because her function
in the laber’ branch had nothing to do with Pash, to my
knowledge.

What I'm trying to do here is to give you sort of a
congeries of people alive and dead who would have had contact
knowledge, at the very least, of what Pash's function was.

Mr. Baron. Were each of these units referred to as

PB with a number following it?

TOP SECRET


gsh 19 TOP SECRET 19

1 Operations and OPC, the staff structure emerged as follows:

2 Reporting to the Deputy Director for Plans, i.e. Frank

s | Wisner, whose Chief of Operations then was Richard Helms, this

Phone (Area 202) 544-6606

4 | is the Clandestine Services Organization, There was .our
support staff, the PP staff, the FPoreign Intelligence staff,
6 | the Counter-Intelligence, Counter-Espionage staff, and of

y | course the famous staff “D".

8 Also reporting to the Deputy Director for Plans were all

9 of the geographical divisions, such as Western Europe, Southeast

19 | Europe, Asia, Near East, and so forth.
il Mr. Baron. Now at this point Frank Wisner was DDP,

le Richard Helms was his deputy.

WARD & PAUL

13 Mr. Hunt. Richard Helms was his Chief of Operations.
14 | Mr. Baron. All right. The Chief of the PP staff was --
1s Mr. Hunt. Either Tracy Barnes or John Baker or (ae
16 ;
17 Mr. Baron. And you were located on the South European --
18 Mr. Hunt. Southern Europe Division.

: 19 Mr. Baron. Who headed that division at that point?

: 20 Mr, Hunt. Either John Baker or John Richardson.

: 21 So as you see, I had a line responsibility to the Chief

: 22 of the Southeast Europe Division, as indicated in Exhibit 3.

: 23 At the same time I had a functional responsibility to the

@ a 24 Chief of the PP staff, who was Mr. Barnes or Mr. Baker or
° 25 7. m just as the Chief of PI for the Southeast Europe

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Mr. Hunt. Does this satisfy your request?

Mr. Baron. It does, indeed,

Of all of the individuals that you have just mentioned,
which ones do you know to your own certainty were clearly

knowledgeable of Boris Pash's activities?

Mr. Hunt. musk would be the first one, and

after that I can only speculate. I would have to assume that

knowledge through me. I'm not sure. I have made a list of
other people whom I have not mentioned who conceivably, by
virtue of Personal contact or functional responsibility, might
well have been aware of Pash's true functional responsibility
within the Agency.

Mr. Baron. Before I ask you to tick off that list, let's

; are names that you have given as people who are

make it clear that all of the names, in addition to

likely to have been knowledgeable of Pash's activities because

jof their place in the organization structure at that time.

Mr. Hunt. That's correct, or as I have indicated in some
cases, as with the PP labor branch by virtue of physical
proximity to that office.

Mr. Baron. Okay. Why don't you now just run very briefly

through the names of other people who you think could conceivably

have been knowledgeable of Pash's function?

Mr. Hunt. In some cases I'm going to have to give you thei

TOD GEC BET

Pacquired knowledge of it,. but perhaps he acquired :

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TOP SECRET ae

1 | title designation rather than the name of the individual because

2 | so much time has passed, I have simply forgotten who it was

Phone (Area 202) 544-6000

3 in that particular era.

Src wenedy who at that time was a member of the German.

pears, ieee

fe

5 | branch of the Western Europe Division, he has since retired

. . : ee oo , .
and is running his family'sUegine@pusiness in New York. Certainly

oO

the then Chief of Western Europe Division, of which Germany

8 was a functional part and the Chief of Operations of Western

g | Europe should know.

10 I would think that Jim Angleton, who would have had
direct knowledge and always was the Chief of the CI/CE staff. ‘

jo | The Chief of base in Geer if in fact Pash conducted any

}
activities in that area, certainly the Chief of base: in |
|

WARD & PAUL

13 |

geet
14 | Beubiyjwould have been knowledgeable about it.

~ , aa .
15 :
16
17 | Bill Harvy, thathis William Harvy, at that time was Chief of |
. |
|

1a | Operationsgtaus eingtor whether he was simply running the

ry

tunnel, but Harvy might well have some knowledge of Pash.

20003

19
3 - :
a 20 I would certainly assume that when we're talking about :
8
2 21 liquidations and that sort of thing that the Agency's overall |
3
ul 22 Office of Security somewhere within it must have been involved,
a) . 1
3 23 such German Division personnel as might be available today,
w

2 é 24 || west German, and I would also suggest that General Cushman might

?

25 be knowledgeable for this reason.
°

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gen 23 TOP SECRET 23
g
Bad ib, b. 4B It was about that time that General Cushman was still
: 2 assigned to the CIA. I could be wrong about that but I seem
q
: 5 to have a memory of Cushman being around in those days. He
4 was then a Colonel. I had associated with him. In fact, we
&
5 | had shared an office at one time, but that was several years
6 | earlier. I would place it about early 1949. But I'm quite
7 | sure that Cushman was around in that period of time and
g involved with the PP staff, though what his function was I
9 don't know.
lo Now there are alive two close friends of mine who were
11 | then members of the PP staff, Geom oyan
2 12 | These are men who in effect established the PP staff for
@ 13 Frank Wisner and then left to go on to other things, They
° 14 are both well known writers.
15 Mr. Baron. Let me just return to one name that you
16 mentioned and that is William Harvey.
7 Did you -- first, generally, what was the nature of your
18 operational relationships to William Harvey after this period?
: 19 Did you have any?
é 20 Mr. Hunt. I never had any, no. In fact, I've only seen
: 21 him once in my life, to the best of my recollection.
: 29 Mr. Baron. As you may know, William Harvey was tasked
: 23 in 1961 with setting up an executive action gapability at
G& : 24 the CIA, tasked originally by Richard Bissell to carry out
. 25 assassinations if required.

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Phone (Area 202) 544-6000

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410 First Street, S.E., Wasnington, 0.C. 20003

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becauge we're going to slop over into this other matter that

| Mr. Liebengood wants to talk about tomorrow.

Mr. Baron. Well, why don't we hold off then, except
| that for this one question, which is are you aware of any
| Involvement that Dr. Gunn had in assassination planning?

Mr. Hunt. No, I'm not because I'm just not familiar

ia

jwith assassination planning. And specifically, for that

| reason, I'm not aware of any involvement that Dr. Gunn might
have had.

Mr. Baron. Let's return now to the point of departure,
which was your conversation with Colonel Pash and the events
that led up to it.

Who were your supervisors that gave you the impression
that Colonel Pash was prepared to carry out assassinations?

Mr. Hunt. I wish I could give you a distinct name. I
think I covered that in an impressionistic way by saying that

Tracy Barnes and John Baker, who were at different times

was probably the one who indicated that Pash had such a
capability.

I know that I did not get it from

quite sure that my information did not come from within the

Southeast Europe Division. It must have come accordingly

and I would have to say Tracy Barnes or John Baker are the

TOB GECBET

sequentially chiefs of the PP staff, it seems to me that Barnes

from the Political and Psychological staff, the contacts there,


gah _ TOP SECRET u

8
$

3 .

@ s 1 ||most likely.
N
i=)
3 2 Mr. Baron. And neither of those two men are alive today?
x
Z 3 Mr. Hunt. That's right.

‘ 4 |i Mr. Baron, Did whoever gave you the information about

5 | Boris Pash indicate to you that there were any other units

6 in the CIA that could take care of such problems by means of

assassination?

8 Mr. Hunt. No. My distinct impression and recollection is
9 the function, if indeed it existed, and I believed it then

1c | to have existed as I do today, was centralized or focused in

11 || Colonel Pash and

12 Mr. Baron. Now what would have been the formal title

13% || of the unit. that Colonel Pash and & S were running?

WARD & PAUL

14 Mr. Hunt. If it had one, I never knew it.

15 | Mr. Baron. Can you add any other detail to the record

16 | On your talk with Colonel Pash and his reaction to your

17 | request that he consider on a general level the planning of

1g || an assassination of a suspected double agent?

19 Mr. Hunt. Well, as I recall it, my conversation with him

20 || was a relatively brief one. I stepped in the door, met him,

21 aicasUS), who I knew briefly, or at least knew him

22 || by sight, and I sat down and I said, we have this problem in

23 | the Albanian branch. We may need somebody liquidated in

@

410 First Street, S.£., Washington, D.C. 20003

94 | Western Germany. Can you handle it if that day comes, or if

95 it comes to that?

so

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And he seemed a little startled. I have already indicated
that. What I'm trying to do now is to refine my thoughts more
than I did previously when we were taking sort of a wide
swipe at the canvas.

Colonel Pash indicated or said to me that it was a matter
that would have to be approved by higher authority and as
a relatively low ranking officer in those days, I thought he
was probably referring to Frank Wisner. And indeed, he may
have. It never got pushed up to Frank Wisner's level because
there no direct approach or a request for such approval
was ever made,

I left with the impression that Colonel Pash was glad
that he wasn't going to have any business for me or that he

had successfully deflected whatever approach I might be making

to him because it would give him and (aimee)
opportunity to drink more coffee and to draw their salaries
from the Agency while affecting to do a job that they were
perhaps not equipped to do,

Now again, that impression I had when I left him was at
variance with what I had heard before I came in, where I heard
he and Gees or he at least had been active in West Germany
in wet affairs, particularly kidnappings and that sort of
thing.

Mr, Baron. And you carried into his office the impression

that Colonel Pash was a man who could carry off an assassination

TOP SECRET

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1 Mr. Hunt. No.
2 Mr. Baron. Did you ever discuss this matter with anyone

3 other than Colonel Pash?

Phone (Area 202) 544-6000

j 4} Mr. Hunt. In that context?
|
5 | Mr. Baron. In the context of assassinations or kidnapping.
!
6 | Mr. Hunt. Well, I wasn't involved in plotting or planning
|
i

? any kidnappings. Again, I would suggest that I might very

g |) well have gone back rey 8 LENE Who was the most interested

fe) individual, because he was responsible at the branch level

10

11

12 || the background of that, the rubric under which I became

1z | interested in the Albanian problem in the first place, and

WARD & PAUL

14 | then having talked to Pash, it would have been only natural

15 | for me to have said to Tire look, I've talked with Pash

16 | and he says it will have to be approved by higher authority.

17 || New have you gotten, we don't have a body yet, but when you

ig | get a name to put on the target, at that point you will have to
19 | carry the ball and take it on up the line.

20 Mr, Baron, And you never heard anything further about it?
21 Mr. Hunt. No, probably because I went within, I think,

29 || a comparatively few weeks off to the Guatemala operation.

23 Mr. Baron. Did anyone ever mention it to you, say did

24

410 First Streei, S.E., Wasningtan, 0.C. 20003

ever mention it to you again?

No. I next saw (REceeraets

25 > inggeaeieeye in

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it would be about '57 or '58, and I had dinner in his home in.

Story. I don't think at the first level when I began recalling

TOP SECRET 40

Taipei, and I'm quite sure I said at that time, whatever
happened to Boris Pash, or what do you hear from Boris?
Now he was a rather unusual individual to say the least,
and I don't think WER to1a me that he was dead. I don't
know who told me that Boris, that Pash died, but whatever

he said, it was, well, he was okay the last time I saw him

and that was the last time we ever discussed it.

Mr. Baron. And you didn't discuss this request?

Mr. Hunt. No.

Mr. Baron. Where did you receive the impression that
Colonel Pash was dead?

Mr. Hunt. I guess when, either from reading the Lawrence

and Oppenheimer book or from the newspapers, from the Crewdson

the story, I don't think I was aware that Boris Pash was
dead,

Mr. Baron, In the Crewdsonstory there is an allusion
to the fact that Colonel Pash is probably dead,

Are you saying that that came from Crewdson's .research
and not from yourself?

Mr. Hunt. Oh, yes, that came from Crewdson's research, not |

mine.
Mr. Baron. This is more than a minor note on the record,

Colonel Bash is not dead,

Mr, Hunt. Oh, good, I thought he was dead.

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my assumption at that time was that authorization by Frank

Wisner would have been all that would have been required to

proceed with the project had it ever materialized. That is

i, the Chief of the Clandestine Services,

Now whether Frank would have been required to go to

Allen Dulles, I rather doubt it. I think it is something that

| he would have been able to authorize himself,

Mr. Baron. All right. Let me ask you now before we get

into Colonel Pash's version of the story, which we will,

here?

So as not to hold anything back from you, Colonel Pash
has said that the time period has to be off because he
retired from the Agency, or left the Agency in probably late
‘Sl. It's possible that it went into 1952. But he wasn't
with the Agency in any capacity after '52. And in fact, his
status was that of a military officer who had been detailed
to the Agency from approximately 1948 to '52,

Now does that affect your recollection in any way of the
period '54 to '55 as the period when your conversation with
Boris Pash took place?

Mr. Hunt. Well, from 1950 to 1953, I was in Mexicofme

Mr. Baron. And where were you from the time that you

joined the Agency until you went to Mexico?

TOP GECBET

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Mr. Hunt. I was a member of the PP staff.

Mr. Baron. Is it possible that your conversation with
Boris Pash about the assassination of a suspected double agent
took place in that time period?

Mr. Hunt. I would have to say it's possible, yes.

Mr. Baron. Would you have been dealing with East
European problems or --

Mr. Hunt. No, I was dealing with West European problems.

Mr. Baron. I'm sorry. Would you have been dealing with
a problem like this one, a problem with a suspected Albanian
double agent in West Germany during that time period?

Mr. Hunt. I can't recall having done so. The West
European Division had its own PP staff officer and he would
have been the one to take it up, whereas my recollection is
that this was generated at a later time when I was in the
Southeast European Division and had a direct reason to become
interested in the matter.

I have to say that it is possible, but I would say maybe
5 percent possible.

Mr. Baron. And you accord so small a possibility to
the hypothesis that you actually talked to Pash about this
problem in '49 or '50 because you were not involved in
operations in West Germany at that point.

Mr. Hunt. No, I was not.

Mr. Baron. And

TQP SECRET

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TOP SECRET 45

g :
:
z :
® a 1 point?
3 2 Mr. Hunt. No, no. He was not.
< , :
3 3 Mr. Baron. Where weré you in '49 and '50 physically?
4 || Mr. Hunt. Physically I was in the IRK building with the

5 | PP staff and my direct supervisor at that time was Noe Brow sy
6 || who I have mentioned earlier. | ; |
” Mr. Baron. Did you travel to West Germany during that

8 | period of time?

9 Mr. Hunt. No, I did not,

10 Mr. Baron. In the later period, '50, '54, and '55, that

11 || you were discussing, did you travel often to West Germany?

ad
< 12 Mr. Hunt. No.
&
z 13 Mr. Baron. You were stationed in Washington?.
3
14 Mr. Hunt. I was stationed in Washington and from the

15 period after I left Mexico, which was in, I think, March of '54
16 || for about the ensuing year when I left for the Guatemala project,
17 | I was in Washington or the SE Europe Division. So I had

1g || that continuous almost year there.

‘19 Mr. Baron. Is there anything else that adds to your

99 || sense of the probabilities that this conversation took place
21 in '54 and '55?

22 Mr. Hunt. No. My restructuring is as I have given it

93 || to you, my recollections.

24 Mr, Baron, Okay. Let me ask you the same question in

410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003

25 | Maybe a straightforward manner.

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TOP SECRET “

political affairs, and his was the 7th, which had less well

defined functions. And BIOMASS was a member of that unit.

Do you recall any dealings that you had in your earliest

)
1

|| period of service with the. CIA with PB7, now that I've refreshed’

your recollection?
Mr. Hunt. Not as such, no. Does Colonel Pash define
what his functions were in the PB7?

Mr. Baron. Before I answer that one, let me ask you one,

Mr. Hunt. I've been trying to develop a helpful colloquy
here.

Mr. Baron. This is very helpful.

Do you recall any charters that any of those planning

branches had?

Mr. Hunt. At this juncture, no. I was only aware that,

I think mine was PB2. This is when I first went in in 1949

or 1950, I think that was (manus

Mr. Baron. Colonel Pash described the charter of PB7
as giving PB7 responsibility for such other functions as the
six other units dian't perform.

Doea that square with your recollection of what he was
doing in those early days?

Mr. Hunt. Well, you see, I don't associate Colonel Pash
with the very early days. I associate him with a later period,
about three years or five years later.

Mr, Baron. Do you have any specific recollection of Colonel

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2 ;
@ a 1 | Pash's activities in the years 1949 to 1952? .

3

é 2 Mr. Hunt. Not at all, no. My only other collateral

L

5 3 recollection is that Colonel Pash was said to have come to us.
‘ 4 | He was recently assigned in Germany and he had come to us

5 | from there. That was all that I knew.

6 Mr.

; who has also testified this
9 past week on this subject, said that his recollection of the
8 charter of PB7 was that it gave PB7 responsibility for

9 assassinations, kidnappings and such other functions as higher -

190 || authority may assign or as were not being performed by other
11 | units.
12 Does that square with the impression that you were given

13 | by your superiors of the functions of Colonel Pash's unit?

WARD & PAWEL

14 Mr. Hunt. Yes. I didn't even know that g@ia@ijwas

15 | still alive. So @Wf@ilej then supports my functional recollection,
16 || let's say. |

7 Mr. Baron. Let's introduce as Exhibit 6 an article in

18 the New York Times dated January 8th, 1976, headed "Retired

19 || Colonel Denies Heading CIA Unit for Assassinations."

3
3
0
° 20 (The document referred to was
E 21 marked for identification as
z
wi Hunt Exhibit No. 6)
a 22
5 23 °
@
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{ vt
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| '54 and '55 and that’s the only specific function that I can !

TOP SECRET 53

with real, certainty that no such conversation took place and
that even in terms of exploring the possibility of assassination
planning or inquiring into the capability for assassination

' planning, he maintains that assassinations were never raised
with him, what do you then have to say about his

| testimony?.

Mr. Hunt. I would have to say that his perceptions and

mine were at variance and that we were engaged in some sort

of an Aesopian dialogue in which neither of us understood

what the other was saying. ;
I had no other reason to approach him. I had never heard
of the man except in that particular context.

Mr Baron. And there was no other reason for them

discussing capabilities for an assassination?

.Mr. Hunt. That.'s correct.

Mr. Baron. Were you aware of any specific function that
Colonel Pash performed with the CIA after the date of 1952?

Mr. Hunt. Well, my recollection is that I saw him in

relate him to.

Mr. Baron. Now you have drawn a chart of the PP staff,

Exhibit 4, that locates Colonel Pash and &geeWictieye on the
PP staff.

Is it possible that they served on the PP staff before the

date the Colonel Pash gives as his retirement date from the


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TOP SECRET 54

CIA, which is sometime in '52?

Mr. Hunt. Is it possible? Yes, I beliéve it's possible

because #Xauu ifaeanqase was one of the original people in OPC.
Mr. Baron. At what point did OPC Merge or was it

transformed?

. Mr. Hunt. Well, it merged with OSO, I think, in 1953

Cerypn Mexico in '53, and
I came out of there in, I think, March of '54, I left Mexico.
By that time the merger had taken place.
Mr. Baron. So is it possible that this chart could have
been a chart of the PP staff as it operated under the OPC

structure, the 453?

14 i Mr. Hunt. Yes. In fact, I don't think that there was

any particular change from the PB to the PP era.

Mr. Baron, The reason for my own confusion here is that

Colonel Pash and (RGreM@Waratesa, have both said that at the

point when OPC was merged, or at some point shortly thereafter,

PB7 was abolished and they don't know what became of it.
They say the functions that these seven planning branches
performed were scrambled and reorganized and they were never
sure exactly who carried through the functions that had
previously been assigned to PB7.

Mr. Hunt. Well, I never heard any more about it.

Just for perhaps a bit more clarification, the labor

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unit or branch as it appeared in the PP staff following the
merger, that had the same function and the same personnel as

let's say whatever PB enumerated or numerical designations.

So it's just a question of terminology. I can see that for
chronological purposes you are interested in how I recall it,

whether I recall it by a PB numercial designation or by --

But since I never knew what the Pash —(#5a0aSe unit was designated,

whether it was designated by a word or by a number, it
doesn't help me at all. And for that reason I can't be
of more assistance to you.
Just go see Colonel Pash. He's in such and such an office |
down there.

Mr. Baron. Off the record for a second.

(Discussion off the record)

Mr. Baron. For the record now, while we were off the
record we agreed to continue this session a while to get into
one or two other areas. But I have a couple of questions to
tag on to the end of this one.

First of all, in his testimony to the

Committee, said that he had no recollection of a conversation
with you where he was present, and you discussed assassination
of a double agent, or the planning for such a mission with
Colonel Pash and himself.

Do you, even having heard his testimony, still have a

clear recollection that ¢ was present when you

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e 1 ll had this conversation?

2 ; Mr. Hunt. I do, because to the best of my knowledge and

Phone (Area 202) 544-6000

3 | belief, it was the first time that I had met {ugeule JUS easels
4 | That is, I had seen him in the corridors, but it was the
5 | first time that I was able to append a name to the particular

6 individual who I had come to recognize visually.

ny | My memory is further jogged in this respect, that $3

8 | having identified me as a member of the SE division of the

g staff, at a later time but not much later, talked to me about
10 || the possibility of his being assigned to the SE division.

11 | And my recollection of the conversation is that GsBie} told

12 || me that he was a great friend Teche meteopolitad of ACERS,

13 || and that this friendship should be put to use for the Agency's

WARD & PAUL

14 | benefit, and it could be best done by his being transferred
15 | to SE division for ultimate assignment to Athens.

16 Mr. Baron. Do you have from anything in your experience
17 | in the CIA any personal animosity toward Colonel Pash or

Baas.

19 Mr. Hunt. On the contrary. I've always regarded myself

18 | ase

20 | as a friend of NGRSM RTA TES, and I only had one contact
21 | with Boris Pash. And I have no feeling about him one way
29 || or the other except that in his recent book I read about his

23 involvement in the Manhattan Project and I certainly admired

410 First Street, S-E., Washingtan, O0.C. 20003

24 || hs contribution to national security in that era.

ig)
3

A
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a

, b. 3B Mr. Baron. In gael

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1 | account of an incident when he was stationed at Cee wand he saic

that he -
o | had written a cable to CIA headquarters outlining a propaganda |

i

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3 {| program because he was involved in propaganda operations at

4 | that point. And he said, unbeknownst to him, someone else

5 | in his station with the approval of the Chief of Station

6 attached an extra paragraph to this cable which suggested the
7 assassination of Chou En Lai in preparation for the Bandoeng
g | Conference where Chou En Lai was supposed to be an important

g | spokesman on behalf of many Asian nations.

iianuak recounted the incident,

10 And the way that G23
11 | he knew nothing about the paragraph that had been attached to

12 | his cable until the reply came back very strongly in the

WARD & PAUL

13 | negative and eventually, a high ranking CIA official came out

14 adie Neato reprimand everyone involved in the incident for

a

15 || suggesting assassination.
16 Do you have any recollection of that incident?
17 Mr. Hunt. No, I have no knowledge. What year does

ig | @eeilebrefer to because I was in Regcauancen

yyin Tokyo from, oh, about ‘55 to

19

'56 or 15724

20 And I would have seen most of the traffic that

21 | came out of Wasinour in that period of time. But I don't know

o9 | if -- I know that MBit stayed on i ‘ Ralpel uch after my

erg

23 time in the Far East.

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25 remember it, of course, but I don't remember the year.

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TOP SECRET | 38

Mr. Baron. It appears to me that the Bandoeng Conference

took vlace, according to Wsetestimony, in 1955

and that the incident he was describing was either in [55 or
late in ‘54.

Mr. Hunt. I had no recollection of it whatever.

is not suggesting that is some basis for personal animosity,
I trust.

Mr. Baron. No. He did say, though, that you might have
had knowledge of that suggestion, although he wasn't sure of .
it. He said you were involved at that time in a place where
you might have seen cable traffic like that.

Mr. Hunt. That's quite right, but I never saw that
traffic.

Mr. Baron. Let me pick up one last general question for
the moment at least on assassinations.

Do you have any knowledge of even the consideration of
assassinations at high levels of the American governemnt?

In other words, we have been using the term higher
authority and I would like to use it for the moment now to
refer to the level of the per or the National Security Council,
the President, his close White House advisors, Cabinet
officials, and the DCI.

Do .you have any knowledge of any people at that level
seriously considering assassination planning?

Mr. Hunt. No, none. I think you have to bear in mind

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TOP SECRET | 60

to me and I was surprised when on invasion day Castro was
alive. I now realize from testimony that Harvey and others
have given that the matter had been discussed long before my
arrival on the scene and it was in hand one way or the other.

Mr. Baron. When was your arrival on the scene?

Mr. Hunt. Spring of 1960. I transferred up, I actually
made my trip to Havana the summer of 1960, and then we had
the Bay of Pigs invasion the following April.of ‘61.

Mr. Baron. Now it is my own recollection of our
assassination report that no action was taken to carry out
an assassination plan against Castro as early as the spring
of 1960,

Did something --

Mr. Hunt. No. I've giving you, I guess, a bureaucratic

answer. I was officially transferred back to Washington in

the spring of 1960 and I took some leave en route in Spain

ectace tn Meteias
Eventually I mad@ my way back to Washington in the spring

and early summer. and got on the scene within a few days of

my actually reporting-into’ the’ project managers, i.es, Bissell

and Barnes, who decided I would go down to Havana for a period

of time, and I went down for about a week and came back, and

by that time we were talking maybe July or so.

Mr, Baron. July of '60?

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TOP SECRET 62

Mr. Hunt. That's correct.

Mr. Baron. Before we move away from Cuban operations,

let me show you one cable that we have which is fro F Phe

and it appears to be to CIA headquarters because it is marked

| IN 75100, and it is dated September 16, 1964 in handwriting

that was put on the copy that we have by the Agency.

This is not the original copy of the cable but it appears
to be a copy that was deleted and paraphrased for the purposes
of providing it to the Committee in the early days of our
inquiry.

We will mark this as Exhibit 7.

(The document referred to was
marked for identification as

Hunt Exhibit No. 7)

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| communications were handled independently between myself and

atalve
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TOP SECRET 64

Mr. Hunt. That can't conceivably have been a reference to

me. H

Mr. Baron. Why is that?

Mr, Hunt. Because I had not been involved in Cuban

| activities for more than three years at that time. I was

| purposely isolated from all Cuban activities after the Bay

of Pigs.

Mr. Baron. You said you did operate out of Madrid for a
period of time but it was later than September of '64?

Mr. Hunt, No, Let me clarify that.

I was sent to Madrid in either '64 or '65. I can't

recall which, and I stayed there less than a year.

2

Tom Karramessines, who was then Deputy Director for Plans.
This was a project that had been laid on by Dick Helms.

Tihed mo, ccatlen comtacs as. and

eo. the station,

hates

and I had no Cuban activities of any kind.

Mr. Baron, And did you have any knowledge of a relationship,
to a plan to assassinate Castro, supposedly to take place

during a university ceremony?

Mr. Hunt. No.
Mr. Baron. Let's move on now to an entirely different

area, and I will ask you to begin by describing your general

role in the middle of the 1960s on the CA staff with regard to

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| Operations Division, although it was never so-called. :

TOP SECRET on

press publications or press placements or any responsibilities
you may have had for media relations.
Mr. Hunt. After Allen Dulles's resignation and retirement, |

I was assigned for about a period of a week to the CA staff

and I then transferred to the newly set up Domestic Operations

Division under Tracy Barnes, which was really the Commercial
I was the first Chief of Covert Action for the Domestic
Operations Division and we inherited as a new division a number

of projects that had been running for a period of time, that

had been run by the commercial staff of the Agency and by a

number of the geographic divisions.

The purpose of turning these ongoing projects over to the
Domestic Operations Division was to centralize contacts with
publishers in the United States for the benefit of geographic

divisions such as the Asian or Far East Division which might

i on)

esilagetor a particular purpose. :

want a book published ony

They would come to Tracy Barnes with a particular request.

And I should say that the relationship with ey Peddariels

a period of time and I think they were managed by Cord Myer

International Division, if I'm nat mistaken, or possibly the

CA staff. But what we received were ongoing operations. We

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5 | I had no personal media contacts with American magazines
6 or newspapers, if that is the thrust of your question.

7 | Mr. Baron. Actually, I'm interested in this whole area,
g | both contacts with specific reporters or media people dome-

9 stically or contacts with publishing houses or contacts abroad
10 ‘in the publishing field. i
ll Mr. Hunt. Well, I've given you the names of the publishing
12 || houses that we had contact with. I did on one occasion meet

13 and I can't recall the purpose of it, it was a very large

WARD & PAUL

14 textbook publishing house and their main offices were in

15 || New Jersey. If I had an annual for publishers, I could pull
16 it out.
Y

17 But beside from that publishing house, we never did any

18 business with them. I don't recall of any publishing houses

: 19 beyondii iG) that is trade publishers, that
: 20 || ¥e dealt with.
i 2] We had our own press agency, fea J which I
: 22 imagine you're quite familiar with.
i 23 Mr. Hunt. Can you describe the standard mode of
© : 24 operating with these various publishing outlets?

. 25 In other words, how would you have supplied them with

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TOP SECRET 67

material? Would you urge them to publish a manuscript they

already had from another source? Would you give them a

manuscript that CIA personnel had written under a pseudonym?
Mr, Hunt. I don't think that ever took place, to my

knowledge.

What I recall is meeting with Tracy Barnes

| and me or individually, either in Washington or New York during

this period and saying I have a great book I would love to
publish, but it's not economically feasible, and I think it
would be good for you people abroad for the following reasons.
And we might come up with the differential or we might not.

I don't recall any Agency-created manuscripts that were

sent to Reseaem@or for that matter, any other publisher.

I recall we had a lot of accounting problems with
and finally we got really almost bogged down in arguments
about back copies. It was a little on the nightmarish side.
We did turn out some good books, but I couldn't give you a
title at this point. But I'm sure that they are a matter of
record within the Agency.

Mr, Baron. What was the nightmarish aspect of it?

Mr. Hunt, Well, apparently, before the project came under
DOD, it had been handled on a very freewheeling basis by the

previous project managers. %% age ces everything he wanted

from the Agency in terms of subsidy money and expense money

and publicity money and that sort of thing and when we took '

nocra:sapozaie Page 38 TOP SECRET

Ww
n
oY
n
ies)

TOP SECRET 68

i it over it was brought under -- I hesitate to use the term }
2 professional management, but I do so in a qualified sense in |

= that I was the only one, I guess, who knew anything about the

Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000

i publishing industry, who had ever been connected with the

5 project. So I knew a little about it. |
6 And at that time, with the help of our own commercial

7 people within the Division, our accountants and auditors and

8 so forth determined that there were a number of aspects of

our fiduciary relationship with the @egeger™company that would

9 1
10 bear greater investigation.
ll So the relationship from a freewheeling one prior to our |
; e | ‘Lo DOD managerial take-over, it became from a freewheeling thing,
i3 | it became sort of an unpleasant continuous argument about
° 14 dollars and cents, rather than functional matters. | |
15 Mr. Baron. Out of what funds at the CIA did these monies
ie | come from that we were giving to [igeesen |
17 Mr. Hunt. I wouldn't have any idea, project money. |
18 Mr. Baron. Who signed off on the project money? |
3 19 Mr. Hunt. Well, it would depend on how much it cost.
: 20 I think that Karamessines could sign off up to $50,000 and ,
i 21 | beyond that it had to be signed off on by Helms, I think. That!s
: 22 my best recollection. And I don't know -- as annual review |
3 23 was conducted, and of course the division chief had to approve
a
® : it. . .
eg 24
. 95 Mr. Baron. Did the operation involve companies other than
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1 the ones you've mentioned? In other words, supplying funds
2 to companies other than the ones you've already mentioned?

Mr. Hunt. I don't know of any. None that I knew of.

Gl

Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000

>

| I would be very surprised if a memorandum showed up saying

5 | that we were dealing with Random House, for example. I just

6 don't recall now.

7 i Mr. Baron. Was there any other aspect to your liaison

8 | with these publishing houses other than their seeking funds

9 | to publish books that you were interested in having published?
LO Mr. Hunt. Only this, that the USIA was, I think, finally

11 || brought into a formal relationship with DOD, at least my

12 | part of it, and the head of the book division at USIA and I

13 would meet from time to time and he would indicate that he had

WARD & PAUL

14 | a good one that we really ought to do rather than USIA and

15 | vice versa. And he knew fully of the (imacgens

16 Mr. Baron. Can you describe the process that you would
17 | go through to ensure the publication of a book that the CIA
1g | was interested in having published? An example that I was

g 19 given by somebody on our staff who has been looking into this

: 290 | was books written by or ghosted for Chinese (Seeeene ny

: 21 | Mr. Hunt. As I recall it, the Chinese branch sort of

rf 20 ran a parallel operation. I don't recaall their coming

: 23 through us. I don't recall a: Pbook when I was in

@ é 24 that particular job. What I do recall is, I remember the
. 25 Near East Branch brining to our attention a book that they

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gsh 685 | TOP SECRET | 688

1 would like to have fijmxegerypublish, and it had to do with the

8
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000

re)
oO
|
‘ 4 ; or his principal assistant, and he would give an indication
5 | of what he thought the marketability was. And at that point --:

6 | well, in this instance, we got the funds from the Near East

7 Division. When it came down to that, why should DOD, who had

8 no interest in the maispute, provide money for
g that particular piece of propaganda. So the money would be :
10 || transferred somehow from the Near East Division's allocation. |

i

11 || It would be their project, but we would be the managers of it

12 || when it got down to the point of dealing face to face with

13 fon the matter. My office would keep the division

WARD & PAUL

‘

14 apprised of the project, when publication could be expected,

15 and so forth.

16 Mr. Baron. Were there any other CIA publishing proprietarles
~ a

7 than the two you have PCCM Riicd Pacific and Continental?

Mr. Hunt. That I had personal knowledge of within the i

18

: 19 Domestic Operations Division, no.

: 20 Mr. Baron. You qualified that by saying within the

$

i 21) Domestic Operations Division. Were there others?

i 22 Mr. Hunt. Because the international operations or Inter-

: 23 national Organizational Division under Cord Myer, ran quite a few
os) 7 24 things in conjunction with the Congress for Cultural Freedom,

° 25 for example. Radio Free Europe, those things that went on.

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on

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WARD & PAUL

@

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Mr. Baron. Did CIA do ghostwriting for non-CIA publi-
| cations? |
| Mr. Hunt. I ghosted a couple of -- I'm very reluctant
to go into this, although I have discussed it with John
|
| Crowdson. But this is another one of those difficult areas
i
where it's very hard for me to prove.

There came a time in the spring of, I think it was the
spring of about 1969, when the Soviet Russia bivision asked

me if EI could cause to have published something on the --

by this time I was no longer with the Domestic Operation

Division. I was with Western Europe -- on the increasing use
by the QQBNSGe SC Magucumem coosiacge d things like that,

and Christ, I hope this doesn't get out.

i And so I went to Helms. Howard Osborne was then Chief

of the Division, as I recall. He was late Director of

Security, and this had been staffed out. And I prepared the

It was just information which was supplied which he wrote

somewhat in his own style, and there was a second article which

appeared a month or two months later, and this was done by
Dick Helms.

Mr. Baron. Also under Ly by line?

Mr. Hunt. Yes. You could understand the difficulties

TOP SECRET

involved here and I don't need any more enemies. I have plenty.

t
1


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70

Now that is my own personal contribution to that sort of
thing. But I can't think of anything else that was done.

Mr. Baron. By other people? Was it a general practice
to supply either prefabricated articles or the material for

articles to favorable press contacts in this country?

ee

Mr. Hunt. Well, we know about the Us Wige@st gelele a

oe ee ee os

mendes

and that was done by the SR Division.
You are aware of that, aren't you?
Now in that case, you see, the SR reached out on its own.

Penkoski\ Papers was another example. We had nothing to do

with that in DOD. That was done, again, by SR division. And
I can understand why.
But basically, in answer to your question, I have given

you everything that I have personal knowledge of.

Mr. Baron. When you made the arrangement withitee

Mr. Hunt. I made no arrangement with him.

Mr. Baron. Who handled liaison with him?

Mr. Hunt. Dick Helms.

Mr. Baron. And was that a one-on-one arrangement or
were there other people knowledgeable?

Mr. Hunt. I believe it was a one-on-one, old school tie

arrangement.

TOP SECRET

which was largely a cooperative venture with the Agency,

Mr. Baron, Was there any list kept at the CIA of favorabl@

gsh 72

Phone (Area 202) 544-6060

because if we were doing a book, for example, on

Communism, who was the target?

TOP SECRET

erorganization. I felt that a strict

1

2 || construction of the CIA charter made the project quite suspect
| Tt would have been highly
|
|
1

| inappropriate for United States citizens to be the target

6 | of the particular book, and we did a hell of a good book on

‘Communism.

End Tape 2Bg || recall the title.

WARD & PAUL

410 First Street, S.£., Washington, 0.C. 20003

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It became about this thick.

TOP SECRET

I can't


t. #3 TOP SECRET

1/10 Hunt 73
Harrisgsmnl

@

1 If your targets are foreign, then where are they? They

Phone (Area 202) 544-60

5 nublished, in: India, for example, where Fnglish is a lingua franca,
6 then you have some basic problems. And I think the way this

7 was rationalized by the project review board that looked over i

{pies

10 formed, which was true, but how much of the @g

oS chee

il

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13

WARD & PAUL

14

15 || Agency was a client, The mere fact that the project was

16 || rooted in the United States gave it sort of a credibility

17 lustre abroad in that particular era. If it came out of

18 | Washington then it was probably okay.

19 But I - Sioneinencaum [occsspnad no domestic U.S. papers

20 | as clients. What I'm trying to get at’ is that DOD handled

21 || operations which were based domestically in the United States,
2° || the commercial operations, and this includes proprietary

23 || airlines and things like that, whose ultimate target was

@

24 || abroad. The principal target or even a tangential target was

410 First Street, S.E., Washington, O.C. 20003

25 not the United States citizen.

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2 TOP SECRET | 74

Mr. Baron. But, with anything that was published in
English, the United States citizenry would become a likely
audience for the publication?

Mr. Hunt. A Likely audience, definitely.

Mr. Baron. Did you take some sort of steps to make sure
that things that were published in English were kept out of
or away from the American reading public?

Mr. Hunt. It was impossible because fmaeceu.

commercial U.S. publisher. His books had to be seen, had to

be reviewed, had to be bought here, had to be read. Again. I
say it was a matter of great difficulty. Mr. Barnes resolved
all that philosophically, and I simply carried out the dicta.

Mr. Baron. What was your philosophical opinion of the
danger of propagandizing Americans?

Mr. Hunt. “Well, I knew that it was not a part of the
Agency charter, and it was a matter that the USIA looked at.
I talked about it occasionally. The USIA coincidentally had
come under some criticism at that time for subsidizing certain
publishers in the United States. That became known; I don't
recall how. I discussed with the USIA book man and with
Barnes the danger that we might be criticized for the same

foperation. Tf

reasons. I was never enchanted with the Benages.
thought it cost far too much money and had minimal benefits

abroad, and further, we had the liability, the vulnerability

to quite reasonable critcism that we had U.S. citizens as a

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TOP SECRET oo.

target, or an audience, I should say.

Mr. Baron. Were there any precautions taken against i

dissemination in America of publications by CIA proprietaries
in English?

Mr. Hunt. Proprietaries, well, my only personal knowledge

ame ap geeseope ration which I say was simply mailed

out of Washington. That was the only precaution, rather than
our people mailing them themselves.
Mr. Baron. Were any techniques used to prevent contamina- |
tion of American intelligence by picking up on things that the
CIA was actually publishing or arranging to have published?
Mr. Hunt. I would assume so, and I would guess that that |
would be done in the first instance by the knowledgeability of
the reports officers in the various geographic divisions at

headquarters who would scan newspapers, for example, or they |

aaa

would receive raw reports from let's say, and see that

there had been a big sale of a particular book which we had

1
t

sponsored, which they knew we had sponsored but nobody else

knew. Of course, ie tai ; Newabewnakwould have known about

it, too. i
So I would say that it was a pretty good fail-safe. The

area of knowledgeability was high. For one thing, I traveled

some in those days. I traveled to Bombay. I. talked to the

poses there. I traveled to New Delhi and talked to

rthere, who was my CA opposite number, and |


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, TOP SECRET 1

keep them up to date as to what we were planning. I would do

i

the same in France and so forth.

1
i
i
1

Mr. Baron. Were there any specific instances that you know

'
i

of of an eventual placement in the U.S. press of a story that
the CIA generated or fabricated abroad somewhere? For instance, |
a story could conceivably be picked up by the UPI or by Reuters
that the CIA had planted abroad.
Mr. Hunt. I can't recall anything significant. I would
guess that during the Cuban, during the days of maximum
Cuban operation that sort of thing happened. I would think it
would be unavoidable, but I can't specify. .
Mr. Baron. And are there any other instances than things

you have mentioned of direct placements of stories in the U.S.

press by the CIA?

Mr. Hunt. I have mentioned the:
cooperative venture with
things. No, I can’t recall.

Mr. Baron. I touched earlier upon the possibility of

disseminating derogatory information about Agency targets. These
were you aware of any general program of that nature to discredit
either a foreign political leader or a foreign political fac-
tion, or domestic political groups or leaders?

Mr. Hunt. To the latter question, no. Domestic, I am

not aware of any.

I think the Soviet Russia division was quite active, and it


Phone (Area 202) 544-6000

WARD & PAUL

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410 Fisst Street, $.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003

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5 TOP SECRET. 77

kept a list, for example, and maintained a very good list of
KGB officers abroad, and when one would show up at Luanda, for
example, they would make sure that the local press got the
man's dossier, or at least a blind handout so that they would
know who the fellow was, much as the Butz counterspy operation
is doing. teday against the CIA.

Mr. Baron. Did you make arrangements, or did you know
of arrangements being made for non-CIA authors to write pieces
that were favorable to the CIA?

Mr. Hunt. No.

Mr. Baron. There was no funding of that kind of opera-
ton?

Mr. Hunt. You mean sort of flackery, the favorable
publicity for the Agency, is that what you imply?

Mr. Baron. Right. |

Mr. Hunt. No.

Mr. Baron. What about subsidizing non-CIA authors to
write stories of any sort, or books of any sort that the CIA
was interested in having published?

Mr. Hunt. I would say this in a qualified sense. Where

in the past we
of his book on By ace malayan problem, obviously
we were subsidizing the author of that book because it was

was ultimately passing to the indi-

our money that

greesen

vidual, but that was@aasecem doing it rather than us. In

TOP SECRET

fa commitment to buy X copies


Phone (Area 202) 544-6000

WARD & PAUL

410 First Street, $.E., Wasnington, O.C. 20003

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‘ecank@while he was doing the Penkoski.Papers. So that was.
pease g P

. TOP SECRET 18

other words, there was never any face to face contact.

Mr. Baron. Aside from dealing through publishing houses

that you had established contact with, did you deal individually

with authors who were non-CIA employees?
i
|

Mr. Hunt. I did not. I don't think DOD did. I think that.
Far East Division did.
Mr. Baron. Do you know with whom?
Mr. Hunt. You mentioned [Chinese GSQSaEo? for example. |

Well, they dealt also, the Soviet Russia division dealt with
{

on the Penkoskhi case. In fact, I had lunch with

an example.

Mr. Baron. Did they have a regular program?

Mr. Hunt. Yes, I think so.

Mr. Baron. Both of those two divisions?

Mr. Hunt. Yes.

Mr. Baron. Is there anything else that you think we would
need in order to have a fairly clear, complete picture of the
relations to the media or the publishing industry?

Mr. Hunt. Well, I think you could get probably a good
deal more information from Cord Myer, who had a lot of that
directly under him when he was Chief of the International
Organizations Division, and of course, he served as Deputy

Chief of Clandestine Services for quite a while. He would

probably have as panoramic knowledge as anybody. I quess he’s


TOP SECRET

80 i

1 was that we had made the -- the President had given certain

2 | undertakings to Cuban leadership and to our own paramilitary

Phone (Area 202) 544-6000

3 people, and had failed to carry them out.

4 | However, this fact was successéully disguised for a number
5 of years,. but Dulles and Dick Bissell—paid the price.

6 In any events, the Bay of Pigs cost Dulles his leadership
7 of the Agency, and I had the utmost respect for him. I was

8 associated with him as an assistant for the special Cuban

9 Bay of Pigs purposes, for a period of several months prior to,

10. perhaps six months prior to his eventual retirement.

11 I had had occasional contacts with him as PEChio? of ¥

ne econ and I had seen him in Japan when he came over there
Selene

13 || and we had some discussions. Mr. Dulles brought into the

WARD & PAUL

14 || formal Central Intelligence Agency the same feéling of esprit |
15 | de corps that we had all enjoyed in the Office of Strategic
16 || Services, and this was largely lost during the McCone director-

17 | ship. And I think we had some admiral after that, Admiral |

18 | Radford, possibly. We got under a group of managers, and the
19 | human element that we had enjoyed in OSS was gone with the

20 | passage of Allen Dulles until Dick Helms came back in. You

21 | see, I'm an ynrepentent admirer of Allen Dulles and the way we

22 | used to do business. Why do I sav that? Because the wav we cid

23 | business during Mr. Dulles's directorate was precisely the wav

24 i we did it in OSS. during General Denovan's creation and direction|

410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003

25 lof that organization. In OSS. which was Allan Dulles's training,
‘ ground as much

HW 50955 - DocId: 32802418 Page 51 TOP SECRET i

apy: eeree ee

yt — fe):
v7 ; —_— SECRET | Exh t.7

“FROM

ACTION: DC/WH/SA 3

INFO : DDP,VR *

, Jo OCAT o¢
SECRET 1612282 =

IW (5/00

PRIORITY DIR INFO PRIORITY WAVE CITE :

REF (ENO 1681 IN 73706

4 1. CIA OFFICERS MET WITH SUBJ REF 1$.SEPT. ONLY "IMPORTANT",
INFO HE PROVIDED WAS VAGUE REFERENCE TO AGENT-1 PLAN ASSASSINATE
CASTRO ATTENPT WOULD SUPPOSEDLY TAKE PLACE DURING UNIVERSITY
CEREMONY AT WHICH CASTRO PRESENT. AGENT-1 REPORTEDLY RESPONSIBLE
ARRANGING DELIVERY CUBA ONE BELGIAN FAL EQUIPPED WITH SILENCER.
AGENT-1 WAS TO BE TRIGGERMAN SUPPORTED BY UNIDEN-ARMY OFFICERS.
ABOVE PLAN NOW APPARENTLY ABANDONED. .

(@ 2. SAID AGENT-1 ANXIOUS LEAVE CUBA ON OFFICIAL VISIT ORDER
CONTACT CIA RE HIS FUTURE ROLE WITH CUBA. SUBJ SUGGESTED REMOTE
POSSIBILITY ARRANGE VISIT PRAGUE THRU AGENT-1 FRIEND JOSE, DELEG
TO IUS. OUR IMPRESSION IS AGENT-1 WANTS. COME OUT FOR GOOD AS
PROBABLY FEELS PERSONAL SITUATION TENUOUS.

3. ACCORDING SUBJ, FOLL PERSONS OR INFLUENCE ON AGENT-1 TEAM.
MAJOR, MAJOR AND EX-MAJOR (FU

4. SAID AGENT-2 HAS NUMEROUS CONTACTS CUBAN OFFICIAL CIRCLES
MADRID, PARIS, BUT WORKING FOR ANOTHER GOV'T. SINCE HE IN BAD
STANDING WITH U.S.G. HINTED CIA SHOULD BE IN TOUCH 4ee#r-¥ HOWEVER

STATION gE STRONG RESERVATIONS AGAINST AGENT-2 ON SECURITY GROUNDS

SECRET
@ | °

HW 50955 DociId: 32202418 Page 52


ee SE CKLY

PAGE 2
AND FACT HE OUT FOR GOLD, PLUS LITTLE EVIDENCE CAPABILITY
PRODUCE INFO OF INTEREST. 4
5, @BEjwHo LEFT MELTING FIRST, CLEARLY INFERRED TO SUBJ 17 HAD
BEEN “GREAT WASTE OF TIME." OTHER CIA OFFICER PROCEEDED POLITELY
MCHEK QUT" SUBJ FOR GETTING US TO ABOVE MEET ON FALSE PRETENSES. 7
| SUBJ FRANKLY ADMITTED HIS "RECRUITMENT" BY CIS WAS HANDLED IN SUCH
SLOPPY MANNER AS BE CONSTRUED A FARCE. VIEW VAGUENESS HIS MISSTON
AND LACK SECURE CONTACTS, REPORTING CHANNELS, IT APPARENT CIS NOT
EXPECTING MUCH RESULTS FROM OP WHICH PROBABLY MADE ON "HIT OR MISS"
BASIS. QUITE LIKELY "EDUARDO" WILL NEVER APPEAR TO CONTACT SUBJ,
"6. SEEING HIS "UTILITY" TO US AS DUBIOUS, SUBJ BEGAN SCRATCHIS

HEAD FOR LEADS AND MENTIONED FOLL "FRIENDS" HE MIGHT CONTACT: ORLAND:

aE

BLANCO |§ | CHARGE IN BERN WHO COMING BER

TRASANCO OF PAIR MB OWHO CONFIDANTE ASLASH 1 ALSO ANQWN
SG MADRID:

Rigs

AND ENRIQUE RODRIQUEZ LOECHES, AMB TO MOROCCO SOMemn
20 SEPT.

7. C/O SAID NOW UP TO SUBJ SHOW BONAFIDES SUGGESTING HE WCULD
TAKE ADVANTAGE HIS "UNIQUE STATUS" AS CUBAN AGENT GAIN ENTRY
OFFICIAL CIRCLES. SUBJ FEARS WE MAY DENY VISA AND DENOUNCE HIM TO

ae

ANU POLICE. ALTHOUGH HE PROMISED MAKE EVERY EFFORT, INDICATIONS

TO DATE ARE HE WILL HAVE LITTLE, IF ANY, OPS UTILITY. IN ASY FVENT
WAS TOLD EXAMINE THOROUGHLY ANY LEADS HE MIGHT HAVE IN NEXT FEW
DAYS. WE WILL DECIDE IN NEXT MEETING OR TWO WHETHER HE DOLS APPEAR
TO HAVE ANY UTILITY, IF NOT HE WILL BE DROPPED.

SECRET .

a abresisiMerircasee TO SENSITIVE CABLES

mes 9 1975

vlA SECRET

AA ve agit we

5. eu aE ERR


Lee ea y : SENT Y [2UOseas ; i gs
; ANCL -PSOJII-JOAAN INA From eeg EY. WeU ar ©} Ses UIPQp See, ory uur JO toy 38s a :
/ Ex) iD
THE NEW YORK TIMES,

THURSDAY. JANUARY §, 1975 ‘

Denies Heading F

I

rA S$Qssinations,
ee .

Retired C olonel
C.I.A. Unit fo
| eS

SPetal to The New Yor‘ Times

WASHINGTON, Jan. 7 — \

!

’ 1949 and 1951, inj
retired Army colonet has denied See Petiod in

|
|

: which } j .
ito Senate investigators an S| signed te the cop porarily ass
Isertion by E. Howard Hunt: i e BLA,

Nr. that th

; . OF at any!
@ colonel once headed: Other time in hig Career. :
1& Central Intelligence Agency! Mr. Hunt said ina recent:
lunit set up to arrange for the Mterview that during his ser-,
| Assassinations of suspected vice With the CLASS Balkans,
,double-agents.

Vision in the Mid-1950's he
The coloncl, Boris T. pach, had discussed with

jtold the Senate Select Commit. Pash. at his superiors’

: behest, :

BS a dims exerdy NP, spec aa @
{that during 1954 and 1955—the lieved to be a double agent. i

period in which Mr. Hunt, a “T was told that we had.

jformer C.LA. officer, said he that capability,” Mr. Hune said:

| lone! Pash ‘ y

was told that Colone! Pas in the interview, and “that the:
ran such an operation—he had Suv to See about this sort of!
left the CLA. and returned 7 - \

to military service things was Colonel Pash.” {

_' Mr. Hunt, who Said that hej
In a statement made public hag understood that Colone!:
by the panel today. Celonel pach was deceased, added that/
Pash termed Mr. Hunt's a5Ser-'he did discuss the matter with |
tlons “insidious and completely: the colonel, who seemed
false. ishocked “that the subject has!
He said he could hot recalliever been brought up.” and
ever having met or Spoken w:

Colonel,

Mr. Hunt, who is 5

prison term for his role in’ Investigators for the nptng| MISSES
the Watergage case. icommiltee are now attempting

Nor, the colonel Said. wasito interview Mr. Hunt about/
he ever “involved in any assas- ; this

assertion. a committee
sination planning” hetween spokesman said.

i ;
SPANISH TROOPS tc ~~ SEASL
SPANISH TROOPS RUN through the center of the Capital

between working-class neigh r.
SUBWAY IN MADRID hoods” ron ci385 neiehbe

Passengers were ad-'

ned ‘mitted free, :
MADRID, Jan. 7 (AP)—The/ San

Spanish Army began running) MADRID, Jan. 7 (Reuters)—:

the Madrid: subway system to./Striking Madrid subway work.’

day as the Government moved,érs tonight voted to defy Gov.

ingeriy to break a three-day /érnment pressure and. to con-j . -
wildcat stake that set off the/tinue their walk-out. Strike! Find the la

worst traffic snarl in the city’s;leaders said they would hold! Single and doubie t
history. '

(out until their wage demands! -.. Sick frem plenty ,
_ Fearing a possible labor back-:were met. want. We even have som.
lash, the Government refrained| The strikers voted not to!

for the moment, however

» fromiaccept an offer from the offi-!
| n union to

eee
i )
ice, hold talks if they returned to
About 3,000 electric company| work.
workers marched into the cen-
ter of Madrid in SUPPOrt of the

BARCELONA, Spain, Jan. 7|
Subway workers and the police (AP)—The Rev. Luis Marta Xiri.
used tear gas to disperse them. nachs. an outspoken Roman
The police said they broke UP Catholic priest nominated for
i the Nobel Peace Prize last year,
Siwas arresteq today while dem.
onstrating near the local Prison
were reported. , in support of amnesty for politi.
Army personnel trained as cai prisoners, police sources said,
railroad engineers reopened the ee
main subway line, which runs

——__
REMEMBER THE HEEOIEST!

2° Discover dra-
; single and doudie :

lles,

dra slips

A printed two-piece
Lamia a ' 7

HY S}9955 4 DogTa: 32202418 B


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A year ago when Congress established the Church Committee, Senator

STATEMENT BY E. HOWARD HUWIT

Baker was quoted as saying that I would be an early witness. I was then free
on Appeal and readily available to testify concerning CIA involvement in
allegedly illegal act toni y orecvers I viewed testifying before the
Committee a3 & further/to testify under oath concerning my total non =
involvement with Messrs Cswald, Bremer and Sirhan, persons with whom my
name has been slanderously and libelously linked in press and electronic
media. Although I had been interviewed previously by the FBI and the Rock-
efeller Comission with regard to these allegations a host of assassination
buffs and media advocates continued irresponsibly to associate me with the
deaths of the Kennedy brothers and the crippling of Governor Wallace.

My Appeal denied, I re-entered prison in April,1975. Three weeks
later US Marshals escorted me to Washington DC for what turned out to be &
three-hour interview with a new Watergate Assistant Special Prosecutor. For
a 9=day period I was lodged at the Leesburg, Vae, jail,and finally returned
via Detroit and Tallahassee where I was imprisoned in the isolation area
before being driven on May 26 to Eglin Federal Frison Camp. On May 27,
Assistant Committee Counsel Michael Madigan telephoned me to say that the
Church Committee wanted to interview me “within the next two weeks", I
apprised Mr. Madigan of Public Law 93-209, Title 18. Sec.k082(c) Paras 1
(amended) which authorises minimum security prisoners such as myself to be
furloughed for up te 30 days for purposes of testifying. Counsel Madi gen
agreed to ay testifying om this furlough basise

"Over the sumer,however, I beard nothing further fron Hr. Madigan
or his Committee associates. Then in mid-September a Washington POST story
alleged that I had been assigned by a White House superior to assassinate
columist Jack Anderson. Senator Church was thereupon quoted as saying

that his Committee would investigate the charges. I welcomed this apparent

" HUNT. Cont 'de

=2—

opportunity, for the allegations had gained wide credence while may ow
delayed response appeared only incompletely in the press, Still, nothing
wag heard from the Committees

In December 1975 John Crewdson of the New York Times interviewed.
me in prison. He asked af I knew anything about "CIA assassination capas0
bilities’, and I related to him ny encounter with Col. Boris T. Pash. Mre
Crewdson then inquired whether the Church Committee had interviewed me.
I responded in terms of the foregoing, noting that I would have testified
about the Pash encounter had I been given the publicized opportunities.
My interview with Mr. Crewdson was published and shortly thereafter ny
attorney was contacted by a representative of the Committee.

I consider it highly discriminatory that the Committee is
unwilling to have me testify in Washington a5 a furloughed witness.
Further, the Committee's refusal to postpone interviewing me in prison
atil one of two counsel familiar with my career and affaires is available
places me in a difficult position with regard to representation by inforned
legal comsel. And, as during the Ervin Committee hearings ( whose cost in
legal fees to me approached #100,000) I must again pay legal fees occasioned
by the interest of the Senate in a matter of no discernible benefit to me,

Between last January and April I could freely have traveled to
Washington to testify at the pleasure of the Senate. From then on I could
have been furloughed for that purpose and testified accompanied by customary
counsel who are not now available to Be. Nevertheless, in demonstration of

my willingness to cooperate fully with the Senate I agree to be interviewed

ander onth today. SA ny a

BE. Howard Hunt


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