180-10131-10329

| 2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992 0

JFK Assassination System Date:
Identification Form

Agency Information

HSCA

AGENCY :
RECORD NUMBER:  180-10131-10329
RECORD SERIES: SECURITY CLASSIFIED TESTIMONY
AGENCY FILENUMBER: 014727
Document Information
ORIGINATOR: HSCA
FROM: SHAW, ROBERT T.
TO:
TITLE :
DATE: 05/16/1978
PAGES: 78
SUBJECTS :
CIA, FILES
CIA, METHODOLOGY :
SHAW, ROBERT T., TESTIMONY BEFORE THE COMMITTEE
OSWALD, LEE, POST RUSSIAN PERIOD, TRAVEL, TRIPT TO
MEXICO .
DURAN, SYLVIA
DOCUMENT TYPE: TRANSCRIPT
CLASSIFICATION: — Secret
RESTRICTIONS : 1B
CURRENT STATUS: — Redact
DATE OF LASTREVIEW: — 02/01/2003
OPENING CRITERIA :
COMMENTS : Box 5

v9.1

HW 50955 DocId: 32277214 Page 1

[ASCIONE: amt We ee a ha 1-1

i EXECUTIVE SESSTON

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2 | TUESDAY, MAY 16, 1978: |

; |

i | 77

wn i |

z | U.S. House of Representatives,,

4 | |

2 8] Subcommittee on the Assassina-

= ‘| tion of John F. Kennedy of |

= 7 | the Select Committee on i

~ | Assassinations,

Soa) |

~ Washington, D.C. |

aaa | :
a i The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 4:40 p.m.

| , i

= 19! :

= | in room 3370, House Annex No. 2, 2nd and D Streets, S.W. !

= ol a

5 4 Present: Michael Goldsmith and Dan Hardway.

2 oii :

fof oe

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= i Mr. Goldsmith. Miss Reporter, would you please swear
z i in the witness?

= | The Reporter. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony

= is | ;

. if . . a : om ‘

= \ which you are about to give will be the truth, the whole :

“7 4 4

al | truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

2 18

a Mr. Shaw. I do.

= IF

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TESTIMONY OF ROBERT T. SHAW
| Mr. Goldsmith. Would you state your name and address
\ for the record?
| Mr. Shaw. Robert T. Shaw, 3715 Acosta Road, Fairfax,
| Virginia, 22031.

| Mr. Goldsmith. What is your present occupation, Mr.
| Shaw?

Mr. Shaw. I am undercover with the Department of State,

General, Central Intelligence Agency.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, I handed you earlier a copy

of a letter from the Acting Director of the Central Intelli-

gence, Mr. Carlucci, to the Chairman of this Committee. It

corresponds to JFK Exhibit No. 94 in the Committee's hearing

record.

Have you had a chance to read that letter?

Mr. Shaw. I readJit justzcnow.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do.you. understand it?
Mr. Shaw. I understand it.

Mr. Goldsmith. I also would like to hand you the

Committee's rules and resolutions and ask you at this time

to read Rule No. 4 to yourself.

(Pause)

Mr. Shaw. I read it over.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you understand that?

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Mr. Shaw. I understand it.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you understand that you have a right

| to counsel?

Mr. Shaw. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you waive that right to counsel?
Mr, Shaw. I do not need counsel.

1 .
| Mr. Goldsmith. Do yourunderstand that, under. the

Committee rules, that you have a right to receive a copy of
the statement you are going to give us at this deposition?

Mr. Shaw. I should hope so, to check it for accuracy.

Mr. Goldsmith. However, by virtue of the arrangement
| that the Committee has worked out with the Central Intelligence
th

Agency, we have been asked to request of Agency employees that)

| they waive their right to receive a copy of the deposition

for their own retention. By that, I mean we would certainly

sent et reneeneneeenee amen ee tone ome eee

|

be willing to grant you access to the deposition, to correct
| it in any way necessary, but the Agency has requested that

| we ask you to waive your right to receive an actualy copy of
the deposition.

| Mr. Shaw. I have no problem with that.

Mr. Goldsmith. Thank you..

For the record, I would like to say that the Committee’ 3!

mandate is to investigate the assassination of the President.

| The scope of the mandate includes who killed the President,

was there a conspiracy? We are also required to evaluate

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the performance of the investigative agencies, specifically
the FBI and the CIA and to evaluate the work of the Warren |
Commission..

Do you understand that as well? |
Mr. Shaw. Yes.
Mr. Goldmsith. Prior to coming here today, have you

|

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| discussed what your tesimony is going to be with any CIA
|

i employee?

|

| Mr. Shaw. I> havesnot, except-to tell them tnat I was. :
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going to telltthe truth when I got over here.

|
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| Mr. Goldsmith. In terms of discussing the substance of
your testimony?

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Mr. Shaw. None whatever. |
| Mr. Goldsmith. Have you discussed with any CIA employee,
past or present, who either has been interviewed by the

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Committee or has given a statement under oath,to the Committee,
what questions were asked Of him or her?
Mr. Shaw. I have not.
Mr: Goldsmith, Are you here today voluntarily and
: without subpoena?
Mr. Shaw. Yes.
| Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, how long have you been working
| under State Department cover?
Mr. Shaw. Since approximately the date I came aboard,

because I was promptly sent to the Department of State for

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training. That would be March, 1948.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would your State Department file, if

actually a CIA employee?

Mr. Shaw. I have no idea.

Mr. Goldsmith. You do not understand how the cover

arrangement would work between the Agency and the Department
of State?

Mr. Shaw.. I have never had anything to do with the

setting up of such cover. It would well be that there might

be some sort of an indicator of flag, or something in that
file that would indicate to a person who knew the ropes that

I was not bona fide.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would there be a personnel file on you

at the Central Intelligence Agency?

Mr. Shaw. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. As a matter of procédure, in terms of

| how you get paid, do you get paid by the Department of State?

t . .
i Mr.-Shaw. No. I am under, at the present time, nominal

state cover... I actually, as far as the Department of State
is concerned, resigned over there in 1973, I believe. At
the present time, I am paid by the. Agency.

Mr.GGoldsmith. When you were working under cover, were
you being paid by State at that time? |

Mr. Shaw. Yes, I was.

reviewed by a member of this Committee, indicate that you were}


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Mr; Goldsmith. Are you familiar at all with the

literature that has been generated by the assassination of

the President and the work done by the Warren Commission?

Mr. Shaw. Very little. I just noticed that green book
there a minute ago. I have never read that thing. i

Mr. Goldsmith. Book 5, for the record, of the Senate
Committee Report. |

Mr. Shaw. I have seen copies of the Warren Commission
Report in various places around the government, but I never
read it.

Mr.. Goldsmith. When you were working with the State |
Department in other than a nominal capacity, what. was your

title?

Mr. Shaw. My last title was Special Assistant to the

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Ambassador and First Secretary of Embassy, Honduras.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever work as a consular officer?
Mr. Shaw. Yes, I did.

Mr. Goldsmith. When you worked as a consular officer,

were you required to fulfill both responsibilities as a con-

sular officer and as a CIA employee?
Mr. Shaw. To a certain extent.
For example, I have never issued a visa. I have issued

a passport for another consular officer who accepted the

application and I would be on the road in northwestern Mexico

arid issued the passport to the American citizen concerned.

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I have done a modicum of what we call protection and

welfare work. This would usually involve being again on the

road, stopping in, for example, in a prison to see if there

was. an American citizen there, to find out what the story
was, why he was there, how he was being treated and that sort
of thing, and relay that information to the consular when I
got back.

Actually, I have not done much consular work. I used
the cover on several oceasions, “but: was: never emersed into
the role to the point where it interfered with my Agency
activity.

Mr. Goldsmith. Normally when somebody is acting under
State Depaftment cover, is the person required to hold down
two jobs at the same time?

Mr. Shaw. It depends.on the location of the person.
As I understand it, people we have, for example, in the Iron
Curtain countries, or the countries of Eastern Europe, do

hold down virtually 100 percent full-time State Department,

Foreign Service jobs. Some of the people that I have run. into

in my work as an Inspector for the Office of the Inspector

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General, notably in the Mid-Eastern countries, have spent muchi

more time on their cover work than I did.

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I think that it has to do basically with the permissive-'

ness, or lack thereof, of the operational environment that
you are in. =In Mexico, it-was not necessary to spend much

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| time, at least not for me, on cover duties.

Mr. Goldsmith. How long have you been working for the
| Office of the Inspector General? 4

Mr. Shaw. Since August of 1976. |

| Mr. Goldsmith. Did you have any responsibility in the
| writing of the 1977 Inspector General Report pertaining to
the CIA's handling of the investigation of the Kennedy
assassination?

Mr. Shaw. None whatever.

! -Mr. Goldsmith. Has anyone ever interviewed you before

pertaining to the Mexico City situation as far as it pertained

| to Oswald?

i Mr. Shaw. Yes. It was about that time of '76, some-
Poe
body interviewed me in the CIA Headquarters building, and I
| think it was a Senate Committee, but I amnnot sure. They had
| some files. ; eee
| . Mr. Goldsmith. Did you give your testimony under oath
| at that time?
Mr. Shaw. No, not that I remember.

| Mr. Goldsmith. Did any CIA person ever interview you
concerning Lee Harvey Oswald's activities in Mexico City and
the operations of the Mexico City station?

Mr. Shaws I would nave to qualify that. We discussed
| the subject, of course, in Mexico City at the time of the
" assassination, or immediately after the assassination.

: SEGRET

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32277214 Page 9 ALQESSON RESORTING COM


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But I cannot recall that I was ever called in anywhere

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and asked for my account of what transpired after the assassina

tion.

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and give a description, for example, of Oswald's activities,

Oswald?

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5 | Mr. Shaw. No. I would not have known anything about
é 7 Oswald*s activities anyway.
3 | Mr. Goldsmith. Are you familiar with the photograph
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19 | that was taken in 1963°that was reportedly linked to Oswald
WW and which subsequently turned out not to be a picture of |
4

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Mr. Shaw. I am familiar with a photograph that was

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identified by people at the station in. Mexico City as possibly

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being an American-appearing person. I do not know that it

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SUM.

Mr. Goldsmith. We will get into that. My question is,

did anybody from Headquarters ever ask you about that. parti-

308 7tH STREDT,

cular photograph or the circumstances surrounding it?

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Mr. Shaw. Negative.

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Mr. Goldsmith. Did anybody from Headquarters ever ask

you to give a statement or report as to the manner in which

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1963?

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Mr. Shaw. No.

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7 Goldsmith. Where were you serving in 1963? :
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3 | Mr. Shaw. From about the middle of April, I was serving
= 4 | in Mexico City in our station. |
2 | Mr. Goldsmith. How long did you stay in Mexico City? |
a i .
5 sf Mr. Shaw. I stayed there until September of 1966. |
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& 3 | City? |
\ N |
34 Mr. Shaw. Winston Scott.

bc.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would you give us your assessment of

a

his competence?

~

Mr. Shaw. Competence, It is difficult, because I was

d not looking from on high. He was a brilliant man. He was
reputed to have a doctorate in tlathematics. He had an uncanny |
ability to remember numbers and he carried in his head the !

REPORTTIS QUE Lne NG, GASTHOOMGTON |
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file numbers of what we called P-files in Mexico City. P

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21 | always wrote in black ink -- putting the number down. He had |
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Winn and I were friendly. We were not close. We were |

not on the same level at all.

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I considered him to be, from my standpoint, a competent,

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HW 50955 Docld: 32277214 Page 12

effective, Chief of Station.

Mr. Goldsmith. What type of file~keeping system did

he have in effect, without asking you to describe it in detail

By that, my question is directed towards his thoroughness and
comprehensiveness.
Mr. Shaw. I would say that he probably had one of the

most -~- let me see -- complete file systems in being in the

Agency. I think that he, my personal opinion is that he went

overboard, and we had so much stuff back in our files, it
was hard to believe the amount of paper we had in there.
His tendency was not to rely on cross-indexing. If

you have a document, this piece of paper means something to

-you and you want to keep it and it has 15 names on it, he

was quite capablé of setting up 15 files for the same piece
of paper. And we had a tremendous file room.

I often wondered if we needed that much paper. It was
very thorough. I am not a technician as far as managing
files, but I do know that the people who worked in the. file
room were kept very, very busy.

Mr. Goldsmith. Who were Mr. Scott's chief deputies?
Let me’rephrase the question. Upon which individuals did he
tend to rely the most?

Mr. Shaw. He had one Deputy who-was Allen White. As
far as reliance on other people, I would say he relied very

heavily on Annie Goodpasture -- not in any way in a command

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| function, but as a Girl Friday.

He also seemed to think rather highly of a former one-time}

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' ‘Mr. Goldsmith. What about David Phillips?

_ Mr. Shaw. Yes. Dave Phillips ran the, what we called the

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| CA side of the shop, covert action, mostly propaganda. I came

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to Mexico City with the understanding that I was going to head

lup the Cuban shop. Very soon after I arrived there, Dave

Phillips was tapped -- it was while we were still in the old

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|

He was tapped and named the new Cuban Office Chief.

‘Mr. Goldsmith. Did that happen in October '63?

Mr. Shaw.. I don't know. I do not remember, But it was

inot too long after I was there, and I was asked, I think by
|

|Dave; I don't remember -= if I had any objections to continuing;

yto serve in Cuba.

I liked Dave, I respected him. I did not feel that I
| : .

jwas being hurt, hurt careerwise, to step back and I was very
1.
jinterested in Cuban operations, so I did willingly, let us say,

relinquish command, if you want. to, of Cuban Ops and I served

iDave as one more officer. i

Later on, after Dave left, a year or two later, I once i

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again took over the Cuban Ops group.

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jthe beqinning. Then Phillips took it over at some point and

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then, after Phillips left, you went back to that position?
Mr Shaw. That is right.
Mr. Goldsmith. Our review of Agency records indicates
that Phillips would have assumed that position on October of
163. Would that be consistent with your recollection? i
Mr. Shaw. My recollection would have been, had you not
tola me this based on your review of the files, that it took |
place earlier than October, but I do not know. TI really do not

know.

Mr. Goldsmith. My questions are going to be confined,

unless I indicate to the contrary, to the period up to the

end of 1963. So, from the time of your arrival in Mexico City
until the end of 1963, prior to the time that Mr. Phillips
assumed the position of Cuban operations ~~

Mr. Shaw. Chief.

Mr. Goldsmith. Chief would be the word, and you had chose

nice <5 aes

responsibilities, what did those responsibilities include?
Mr. <-Shaw.::.. Gince it was not ratified to me upon my
arrival that I. was, indeed, Chief of Cuban Ops, I simply con-

sidered myself to be one more case officer working against

the Cuban target. Our basic interest was in effecting pene-

trations of the Cuban government.
What we wanted most of all were effective penetrations |
of the Cuban Embassy, the Cuban Intelligence Service, and some

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possible line-in to their communications set-up.

_SEGHET

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32277214 Page 14 ;

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i : Mr. Goldsmith. In 1963, did you manage to place any
2 | penetration agents in the Cuban Embassy or consulate?
3 Mr, Shaw. Did I?
3 ! Mr. Goldsmith. Did the station?
EB 5 Mrs Shaw. There were two. I did not place either one,
2 4 jand 2 think they both pre-dated 1963.
5 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Were those two penetration agents within
s a | Cuban consulate or Embassy at the time of the President's
3 9 i assassination?
a i
z He Mr. Shaw. Yes. One was in the consulate -- LITAMIL-7
5 YW lwas the cryptonym. L-I-T-A-M-I-L-7. And the other one was
a i
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E ia | Mr. Goldsmith. What information did these people give
= | you afteriithe assassination: -pertaining to the possible involve-
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as Mr. Shaw. I did not handle LITAMIL-7,-and LITAMIL-93. Tf
* 7 | aia handie, ~~
: 1g | Mr. Goldsmith. Who handled LITAMIL-7?
: a Mr. Shaw. 1 think that it. was Ray Swider, but I am not
= 20 | sure. I did not meet LITAMIL-7 until Ray Swider left the

! country.
i Mr. Goldsmith. You nevertheless have had access to the
| information that this individual gave to Swider?

i Mr. Shaw. I would normally have seen copies of contact

: SEORET
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ALQERSON REZORTING Come anc

DocId: 32277214 Page 15

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132277214 Page 16

‘ion or happiness whatsoever inside the Cuban Embassy at the

1-15

case officers wrote -- after station meetings, and it would

have been normal for me, for example, to see any information

of consequence that LITAMIL-7 produced, just like it would
have been normal for any other case officer in the Cuban sec-
tion to see my contact reports on meetings with LITAMIL-9.

Mr. Goldsmith. In light of that, do you know what infor-
mation LITAMIL-7 gave concerning the Cuban government's reac-
tion to the death of the President? |

Mr. Shaw. I do not recall, and I do not recall the
specifics of anything. You may have something in your files

with my name on it; I. do not know what LITAMIL=9 produced.

I do have the recollection of the sense of feeling on the

part. of those people that there was no exultation or jubila-

assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did the penetration agents ever indicate
that Oswald. had been to the Embassy and had stated that he was
going to attempt to kill the President?

Mr. Shaw. NO, not that I know of. |

Mr. Goldsmith. Did any of those agents ever indicate that
Oswald had had contact with the Agency -~ with the Embassy, |
rather? . |

Mr. Shaw. I whould imagine that LITAMIL-7 probably did --

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-~since it was my understanding that Oswald's contact with the

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consular field rather than with the Embassy field, I should

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spoke about it. I do not know.
-Mr. Goldsmith. What was the name of LITAMIL-7?
Mr. Shaw. I'd rather not give names.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, in light of your response, I am

i secrecy obligation. At the same time, I am not about to rely

I understand your concern.for a sensitive source in this. case,
iI am not going to ask you to state for the record the name of

either one of these individuals.

Mr. Shaw. May I say something at this point?

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.

Mr. Shaws, It is my understanding that both of these

| people are, if they are still alive, are living in Mexico and

| I do not want to be in a position of revealing a name which
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reveal two names of agents,

I want to make sure you understand mine.

forcing you to reveal a name.

i reluctance to,

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Mr. Shaw.

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39277214 Page 16

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I would like to get Frank Carlucci to tell me that I would!
if it is necessary -~- or you can
find out from the file, probably, who they are.

Mr. Shaw, I understand your position.

I am in no way

Once you had demonstrated a

then, as far as I was concerned, then the

I will say that we will pursue this by
* contacting the appropriate people at the Adency.

I think if you requested the Agency for those

TI wouldn't want to

I understand your position perfectly.

to go back to the

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Mr. Shaw. I will not say any such thing.

Mr. Goldsmith.

Fine.

For the record, would you spell the cryptonyms of these

penetration agents?

Mr. Shaw. One of them was LITAMIL-7 -- L-I-T-A-M-I-L - 7..

The other was LITAM

Mr. Goldsmith.

Mr. Shaw. Neither one is active.

IL-9.

Are these two agents still active?

neither one is active.

Mr. Goldsmith,

I am quite sure that

For purposes of clarification, LITAMIL-7,

was that agent working out of the consulate?

Mr. Shaw. That agent was an employee of the consular

j section of the Cuban Embassy in Mexico. City.

officer of the Embassy.

LITAMIL-9 was an

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, on the question of the identity

Mr. Ghaw. I.do not see any reason for

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HY 50955 DocId:32277214 Page 19

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1-19

I am required to do so. |

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Mr. Goldsmith. I understand that concern. I certainly

be

respect it.

2 | (Pause) |

5 ‘| I have been informed by my researcher, Dan Hardway, that |

g 7 | the Agency is in the process of looking into this issue.

S 3 | Mr. Shaw. Okay.

- 2 | Mr. Goldsmith. At this time, I would like to get into |

: 0 the area of the telephone taps that were in operation in 1963 |

: 1) | against the Cuban Embassy and consulate. My first question is,

$ 1 | what responsibility, if any, did you have with regard to the |

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Mr. Shaw. No responsibility. I saw the product,
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: ot that tap? |
2 ia | Mr. Shaw. I do not know whose responsibility it was. |

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z 19 | I rather suspect that it may have been Ann Goodpasture's, but |
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HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 20 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPARY

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Mr. Shaw. There was a mix,.-and I cannot. recall which

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were which. It may well have been that we were tapping some
Cuban Embassy phones unilaterally, and some of them were being

tapped jointly. I know that there was coverage on the joint tap

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operation, which I believe was called LIENVOY. I am not sure.

6 Mr. Goldsmith. That is correct.

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You indicated that you think Ann Goodpasture may have been

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Mr. Shaw. Responsible in the sense of picking up the take

I am not sure of that, because I know she ‘did some of that kin

of work. I am not sure who did it. We used to get copies of

countenance B..

the transcripts and I remember -- I am sure I saw some of the

300 Te STRENC, SWS REPORTERS BULEDING, GASHTNCTON, DLC, 202% (202) So4-2345

'4 it Cuban stuff on joint taps. And then, of course, taps that

iS | were run by the Mexican government.

ii Mr. Goldsmith. Did you review the-transoripts that came

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if you will, of the digest of the joint tap that was prepared, |

13 Mr. Shaw. Yes.
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22 | Mr. Shaw. No. f
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aft believe, for the Mexican President. You look at the resuma,

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© 4 Mr. Goldsmith. Normally, you read transcripts of conver-
Z s | sations that took place on telephones of the Cuban Embassy, |
F a he that correct? |
S 7 Mr: Shaw. Normally, I read some of that stuff. I do not
S : | remember whether I saw it all-or, not, becausesquite a bit of:
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g iz | seeing the verbatim -- Man Outside says so and so;. Person |
r Z 12 | Inside, Woman Inside, says such and such.
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4 nf Mr. Shaw. Yes. TI would see them, I would not get them. :
: a they would go past me. I would see them.
: | Mr. Goldsmith. Was it more likely that what you would see
¢ 2 | in verbatim form, conversations. that took place, for example, :
a a lin Russian and had to be translated before you received them? |
@ a 2 Mr. Shaw. I certainly would not see any conversations |

| in Russian, because the Cuban Embassy did not have any Russian)

; conversations. I cannot reahly answer that question. I am

! not really sure I fully understand it. I do remember seeing

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HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 22 GERSSN _“

a variety of take, what we call take, from the various tap

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: 5 | Spanish. |
g i Mr. Goldsmith. How many peeplhe reviewed the take from :
Z z | the surveillance operation of the Cuban Embassy and consular
; ; | telephones? |
.. IC i Mr. Shaw. I have no idea. I assume there were quite a
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Z 1 | few. The stuff was widely passed around.
: | Mr. Goldsmith. As a matter of routine, how many people
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Z _ Mr. Shaw. I would guess five or six. |
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Mr. Goldsmith. They would not review every transcript

Mr. Shaw. I imagine Winn. Scott; I do not know about
Allen White. Winn was pretty much, he tended to review almost
all of the paper that came in and out of the station.

Mr. Goldsmith. Are you saying that there was no routine
procedure established for who was to review the take from the
Cuban telephone surveillance operations?

. Mr. Shaw. I am saying that, when I got there, the case
officers in Cuban Ops saw this stuff that was routed around
through the station and that persisted during the time that
I was there.

Mr. Goldsmith. I am not sure that the answer --

Mr. Shaw. How that was routed, I am not sure.

Mr. Goldsmith. pid you customarily see every conversa-
tion that came in?

Mr. Shaw. I doubt it. I doubt .it.

Mr. Goldsmith. Who would have seen the conversation and
decided that it was not important enough to merit your atten-
tion?

Mr. Shaw. I do not know.

Mr. Goldsmith. Who brought in the take from these opera-
tions to the. station? |

Mr. Shaw. I do not know that either, but it was my

or summary that came in, would then? Allen White or Winn Scott?

1-24

- . tunderstanding that non-official cover. people on the outside

: | picked up. the tapes -- don't consider this gospel, but this

tis my understanding -- picked up tapes from the various listen-

@ 4 | ing posts, some of which had been processed by people in the |
7 listening post; some of which had not. But they, in turn,
F j either processed those tapes or took them to people to continue
g 5 | the processing in case they had a foreign language in them, or :

s 3 | gomething,. and then turn them over to the station.
; 3 | Somebody went ‘out from the station, probably with a little
: 19 attache case or something, and picked up takes again. It is |
: n | my understanding that the person primarily involved in that |
= { . |
= m | was Ann Goodpasture, but I do not. know for sure. :
@ z 13 | Mr. Goldsmith. Who was the first person that the trans- !
= ta cripts would go to upon their arrival at the Embassy? |
= 13 | Mr. Shaw. I rather suspect Winn Scott, because I remeber
z 16 great numbers of those white pades that came across our desk. |
= iT had P numbers written on them in black ink by Winn Scott. |

. ;

E a | Mr; Goldsmith. Do you know how many lines were being
= |
: 19 | tapped at the Cuban consulatevand Embassy?
: 20 | 7 Mr. Shaw. I do not know. |
a 7 Mr. Goldsmith. You reviewéd the transcripts and summaries
| = Ee? 2 of these conversations for two years and you have no idea how |
33 ! many lines were tapped? |

24 | - Mr. Shaw. No. This was fifteen years ago. TI can give

273 | you a guess.

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Mr. Goldsmith. Sure. A best guess would be helpful.

Mr. Shaw. I would guess three or four lines. The primar

interest was in the Soviets. You had far more converage.
That is a guess.

Mr. Goldsmith. Understood.

Mr. Shaw. I would guess, off-hand, two lines in the
Embassy, one line in the consulate.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know if the Cuban consul's telephone
was tapped?

Mr. Shaw. If the consulate line was tapped --

“Mr.-Goldsmith. It would have been his?

Mr. Shaw. Probably it would have been his, but they. may
have had a direct line in there. I do not know.

Mr. Goldsmith. How would a telephone tap actually work?
I am talking now about the actual mechanics of the tap.

Mr. Shaw. I do not know. ‘I never had anything do do
with them. I know they used to take some of their taps at
what. they call the junction boxes. Thesexwould be the boxes
out in the street where lines came in to be fed into this
central -- I would rather suspect that the joint operations
were mostly done at the central, since the Mexican government
simply could have issued orders, you will tap such and such a
phone.

Mr. Goldsmith. My question is oriented towards the

following. Once a tap has been placed on a line, would that

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mean that. all calls, ingoing or outgoing, on that phone would

be picked Ups so long as the tap is in effect? !

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| appear in the transcripts. is another matter. If it |
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& ye transcript. j
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z ie | Mr. Goldsmith. How much time would pass from the moment |
= 11 | that a call came in until the transcription passed across your |
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Mr. Shaw. Sometimes you can get that pretty fast.

Mr. Goldsmith. Within a day?

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Mr. Shaw. Yes. We could have somebody looking for a

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| certain call, and I do not recall ever doing that. But it
| was my understanding that if you expected some situation, that |
you could levy a requirement -- for example, let me give you |
a for instance here. |
Let us suppose that we, the station, someone in the sta-

tion was going to make a recruitment pitch to a Soviet officer,

It would have been possible for the station to have organized

case the guy called up and said, let me tell you the discus-

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getting information very quickly off any given line..
Mr. Goldsmith. Would the transcripts: be reviewed. by .
; you in chronological order?
Mr. Shaw. I got them in batches and I would review them
just in the otder in which they came. I might have shuffled |

i them in chronological order, yes. Quite often they came in

four or five or six pages stapled together.

| : : ;
| Mr. Goldsmith. Would they tend to come in chrolological |:
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order so you read a transcript from the 15th before the 16th?
| Mr. Shaw. Generally yes, right.
| Mr. Goldsmith. What happened to the transcripts after
they were reviewed by you?
Mr. Shaw. They were usually routed. They had a routing

sheet on it, and they woudd go on to somewhere else. Where

they went, I do not know. Sometimes we would mark them for

files. Of course, if there were a transcript. in there that |

| had specific information on somebody that we were interested
| in, we would mark a copy for the files and it would go into
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Mr. Shaw. I do not know. I will say that it was unlikely!

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with the tapes after a conversation had been transcribed?

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ALOEASON REPORTING COME AA?

1-29
never had any personal experience. It is my understanding

that tapes were erased and reused, and they were used over

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|
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3 . Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know if, at the time of the assassina-
| tion, that the station had a tape recording of Lee Harvey

Oswald's voice?

| Mr. Shaw. No, I do not know if they did. I think they
4

did not. It was my understanding that what they had was a

| dna vt STREET, S.4. REPORTERS RUTEDING, VASEENCTON, DLC. 20024 (202) Shu-2345

transcript of some guy calling, again, it is my understanding. |
i

Be

I believe he called the Soviet Embassy from the Cuban Embassy,

or the Cubans called the Soviet Embassy, I am not sure. But

as far as having the tape with Oswald's voice on it, I seriously

doubt it.

(Discussion off the record.)

3

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Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to show you now what was

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marked here as CIA No. 197 and, for purposes of the record

and for your information, the Agency has provided us with its

EX 4
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documents. Each page has been assigned a number. The reason |

ae z4 i it has been assigned a number is so that the Agency can make

| |
, sure that everything given to the Committee is returned. For |
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RZSORTING comeeny

HW 50955 DocId:32277214 Page 30 Bk

wa
4
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(reference purposes, we simply use those numbers for a witness

4 “when we are going through this pile of materials. :
3 Now T would like you to take a look at CIA No. 197, the |
4 | second paragraph. :
% 7 (Pause) |
: 7 Mr. Shaw. Okay. |
= 1 | : Mr. Goldsmith. The second paragraph indicates that the
F 3 | seacton is unable to compare the voices, as the. first tape was
; ; jerased prior to the receipt of the. second call.
: 19 | Mr. Shaw. Yes.
i
7 Mr. Goldsmith. Does that suggest to you that at least

sone tape was still in existence on November 23rd, the date

ire

‘|

i

|

7 that this cable was sent? Otherwise, the second paragraph would

4

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jhave said the tapes had been erased, ‘routinely, whatever.

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Mr. Shaw. It could indicate that. It does not definitely

REPORTERS BUCLDING, GASETMETON,

state that. That is an interpretation, certainly.

'

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Mr. Goldsmith. Does that refresh your memory as to whether

§
“4

z ;q jer not there was a taping system? :
=
= t :
= 15 ii Mr. Shaw. I do not have anything in writing. This did.
= H
= 39 snot refresh my memory at all. This probably would have been
ed - ik . :

yconsidered. Was this after the assassination?

4 Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.

ze :
. 4 %
j .

4304 Mr. Shaw. No, I do not think it necessarily indicates,

+, ‘but I am surprised that it does not say that they were both

7a idestroyed, or both erased.

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| Mr. Goldsmith. Please take a look at CIA 208.

Mr. Shaw. 208. .

Mr. Goldsmith. And read paragraph number four. Read it
| to yourself, please.

| (Pause)

Mr. Shaw. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. According to paragraph number four, it

| indicates that it seems a voice comparison of some kind was.

| made.

Mr. Shaw. Yes, ox it could well be that this guy, Fine-
| giass --

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Tarasoff£?

|
i Mr. Shaw. Remembered the poor Russian of the first tape
i , . :

{ : . .
jand the poor Russian of the second tape and figured that it

was the same guy.

Mr. Goldsmith. How long were tapes normally retained

4
| Prior to being erased?

a very productive tape, you probably would not keep it very
llong, once you transcribed it.

(Pause)

CIA 239.
Mr. Shaw. I have read it.
Mr. Goldsmith. According to that, it indicates that the

SECRET

ALDSSSUN REPORTING COME AunY

Mr. Shaw. I have no idea. It would seem to me if you had

Mr. Goldsmith. -I would like you to read the CS comment on

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REPORTERS BUOTEDTNG, CAST TC

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‘normal time laq would be two weeks. In other words, the tapes

2 | would normally be retained for a two-week period.

2 | Mr. Shaw. That is what it seems to say, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is that consistent with your memory now,

-

s jat. the time?
i }
t
a4 0 Mr. Shaw.. No, I do not have any idea. I was not involved:
7 | in tape pick-ups or tape erasures.

Mr. Goldsmith. The Oswald telephone calls, as we will see)

aa

later on, came in within approximately four days of each other,

‘ON, DLC. 2002" (202) 554-2445

r
‘

4
g |iE, as CIA 239 indicates, the tapes were normally retained for
|
| two weeks prior to being routinely erased. Does that. suggest
ito you that the Oswald. tape was, for some reason, treated in

1

i say September 27th. By the time the second call came in, the

1

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. . .

1g yan unusual manner, because either the first call came in, let's

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| first tape had already. been erased...

Mc, Shaw..-No,° it: does not suggest that to me. -= what is this : nun

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ber here .~--becausetthismessage came out 9 December 63. What it

| suggests to me is that, subsequent to. the assassination, is

pig tH STRELY,

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is | that the station was to hold tapes for a minimum of two weeks.
a : .
Mr. Goldsmith. Please read into the record what 239 says.

Mr. Shaw. CS comment:.:station to erase routine tapes,

|: goviet Embassy, keeping normal two week lag.

Mr. Goldsmith. Does that suggest to you that the normal

lag would not be two weeks?

yea
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Mr. Shaw. This was not addressed to me.

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Mr. Goldsmith. I understand that.

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@ | Mr. Shaw. There is no reason for me to read this anymore
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| than there is reason for you to read that. ~The words stand

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by themselves.

|
|
:
£ 5 | Mr. Goldsmith. That is right, and you have just given an |
a
5 z | interpretation of those words, suggesting that that the mean~ |
g ; |ing is prospective in intent. In other words, after December |
= 21% 1963, the timelag for retention of tapes prior to erasure |
~ $ | would be two weeks. |
.

: 1g | Mr. Shaw. I think it could read that, yes. I do not knew
S ; |

g 7 what went on between Winn and the station as far as periods
2 7 |for keeping these, but. I think what you are trying ‘to do is et
© : a ime into.a situation of pointing out that. the station was remiss.
3 ha [an destroying tapes, and I do not believe that is the case. |
: s/f Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to indicate to you, and also |
: iz i for the record, that what I am trying to do here is go over |
= tt | questions that are raised by the documents and the Committee :
S 13 [has no predisposition, one way or the other, to reach any |
2 19 [particular conclusions !
é 20 | The truth is that. unless these questions are asked of |

ar you, both the agancy and the Committee will be criticized by
Ee i |
aI

e #27 22 ipeople in the future who review these documents and say, why
BN

i

23 iwere not. these questions asked of you. |

|

@ qe Mr. Shaw. 2 can understand why you are asking the ques-
i

itions. I am simply not. in a position to tell you, from memory

7

. nes SECRET

: SH 220RT COME AREY
HW 450955 DocId: 32277214 Page 34

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SEU:

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1-34

| or anything else what the normal station procedure was regard-

ing retention of tapes, although, as I did indicate earlier,

| ; | |
34] that the tapes were routinely erased and used over again. As |.

fee the time lag, you know as much about it, and probably

1

|

: 7 more than I do, by now.
: 7 Mr. Goldsmith. What responsibility, if any, did you have |
g 7 | with regara to the photo-surveillance operation against the
z | cuban Embassy and consulate?
“ | Mr. Shaw. I had no responsibility for that operation
: fo | until after. Ivreassuméd the Cuban Ops section which would have |
: |, [been the day Phillips left for Mexico, probably a year or
2 | two down the road. I do know, however, that the operation --
- i . i
x ) 2 rz H there was a Cuban photo, or a photo operation against the
. = ~ a |
2 4 | Cuban Embassy. |
Pot i . I
E is | I do not remember why, but I think that observation was
: 1, | not active in the period when Oswald was in Mexico. If I |
= 1; | remember correctly, the man, to the best of my knowledge who ;
: 5 handled that, who was actually the inside case officer, if
: 2 38 will, was the little guy who was snapping the pictures,
= H
é 0 | was a fellow by the name of Robert Zambarnadi, and I believe
on phe is retired and living in Mexico. I do not know. |
Eos
5

Mr. Goldsmith. Who was the station case officer responsible

i

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| for running the photo-surveillance operation against. the

2
43

| Cubans?

2
as,

Mr. Shaw. As far as I know, it was Robert. Zambarnardi, i

_SEGRET

INS COMB ane

We
an

HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 35 ae

HW 50955

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technically qualified man.

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43

Mr. Goldsmith.

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Mr. Shaw.

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BOL iwas, but he came in and talked to so and so,
3 ;

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= 4 i Mr. Goldsmith.

& |

z is ' pictures of the Cuban consulate and zmbassy?
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* aan Mr. Shaw.

.

an yone photo base. At times,

= 8 the Embassy was. If I may draw you
st

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5 "ene block, the compound block.

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big building up here,

where.

awant to get visas would routinely appear here and they would

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Docld:32277214 Page 36

i who was the technical officer of the station.

There was no one overseeing him?
I do not believe so, but maybe Dave was. I

We used to get batches of pictures.

4 i things: that: I would do with the agent that I mentioned earlier

jyes that I handled-was. take batches of these pictures to him

| ana sit down with him and say, did you ever see this guy, or

And he'd*“say, that's a courier, or that's the 1

i We used to try to identify people with those pictures.

How many photo bases were there taking

To the best of my knowledge,

the consulate was

and there was
I do not remeniber whether it

This was the consulate,

a
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wins

He was a

One of the

or I do not know who this guy

that sort of

there was only!
not covered and
a picture,

this would be

The Cuban Embassy was the

a little gatehouse down
was in or out.
People who would

on the corner.

isend them down the street and they would go into the. consulate.

Sometimes they knew where they were going and they came in here,

SEER

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1-36

or they asked a cab, take me to the Cuban consulate, they

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|wouta probably be delivered here.
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This is a block, a city block. The house from which the

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@ 4 | photographs were taken is over here on this corner. The
= 2 photographs were taken long distance down here and here. This |
: 6 ves not always covered. This was considered more important,
g y | becuse it was routine -- either there was a lot of routine :
& 4 | visa stuff here.
= ;
r Later on,- subsequent -- gosh, it must have been a year
: ra | later. do not remember just when -- we developed a system,

1+ 10x somebody up here in-the states who developed a system
| .

‘whereby the camera would be triggered automatically. That is

| movement -- sort of Like a photo-electric cell or something --

(movement up here in the picture that the camera was to cover

would cause a series of photos to be taken, maybe four or

REPORTELS RUTLDENG,- HASTELUCTON,
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five, zap, zap, zap, something like that.

i
|
|

2.

an ir But I believe that, at the time Oswald was in Mexico city,
: 14 /not only was this down for some reason and not functioning, |
: a but I believe, had it been functioning, that it would have !
é 7 | been individual picture snapping. I do not think that auto®

| i
| matic equipment was in Mexico at that time. I could be |
|
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| ao |
: Mr. Goldsmith. I am not going to be able to introduce
.

jas diagram into the record, so I am just going to describe

'it as best as I can.

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Be SECRET

ALZTESSON BEZORTING COMePGAY

HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 37

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You indicated that on one block, on one corner of that

bo

block .was a consulate building for the Cubans. The other side

of the block was the Embassy building.

as

,

|

4

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@ 4 | Across the street was the photo base. |

= 5 Mr. Shaw. ‘his was all wall. This was a compound. |
3 é jpxcuse me, if I may interject. There was another building back.
: 7 [pee that had a theatre downstairs and had offices upstairs. |
x . | Mr. Goldsmith. Was that within the compound also?
; 3 |i - Mx. Shaw. Yes. |
a

‘Mr. Goldsmith. ‘Three buildings within the Cuban compound?!

SHTMCTON ,

!
|
lid Mr. Shaw. Yes.

ta
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-.Mx. Goldsmith....The photo ‘base was located across the

19 i gtreet<-. T€ was closer to the consulate than it was to the

RULLDTRG,

entrance of the Embassy?

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Mr. Shaw. That is correct.

REPORTERS

Mr. Goldsmith. From the diagram that you drew, it would

:

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‘ seem that the location of the camera was. closer to the consulate

i

= ta i than it was to the Embassy entrance, yet you also indicated
a
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= 20 | the Embassy, not the consulate? ee an
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cee 2! Mr, Shaw. That. is correct”
Boe i . i
Me/ 22 Mr. Goldsmith. Was not the placement of that camera in |

!an inappropriate position?

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2 Mr. Shaw. I imagine that camera was placed wherever we

23 , could get it. Getting real straight across from one, of those

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HY 50955 DocId:32277214 Page 36

SEGAL | 1-38

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embassies was. very difficult.

| :
: |
|

2

I know, had we had our druthers, we would have placed

i
:

that camera closer up here and the Soviet Embassy had a similar

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sort of situation, a camera over here and one down here. I

= 3 | believe theicloser the better, yes.
; 5 Mr. Goldsmith. How many photo bases were there operating |
2 7 [against the Soviet compound, without drawing a diagram? |
& | Mr. Shaw. I do not know, but I think there must have
= : i
3 3 | been two or three. | |
. "9 | Mr. Goldsmith. Are you sure you were not the case officer!
=
g |, | overseeing the surveillance operation against the Cubans? |
a _ :
= | Mr. Shaw. TI certainly am.
@ e 1 | Mr. Goldsmith. So Mr. Zambernardi was not working under |
5 1 | you? | |
a
: al Mr. Shaw. I did not consider him working under me, at
O° ik
z g | that time. Later on, when he was replaced and I am not sure |
. i {
. tr | whether Dave Phillips was there or not, I did move into this
-
E 1a | operation. I am trying to think of the cryptonym for the
= | |
= 19 | operation. I cannot recall. |
: 0 And the chap who then handled it was Zambernardi's |
——- 2H | replacement, I think his name was Humphrey. ‘That was the |
Aoss i i

surname. Lou Humphrey, I think. I am not sure.

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| Mr. Goldsmith. What was the purpose of the photo~surveil-

i
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|

|

Mr. Shaw. Primarily to identify people in touch with the |

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SEASON REPORTING COMPAS
HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 39 ALS ER SON ——s

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foreign embassy.
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Mr. Goldsmith. Would everyone's picture be taken?

ii

| Mr. Shaw. No, no way. |
e 4 | Mr. Goldsmith. Whose picture would be taken? |
,
E 5 Mr. Shaw. For example, that you would normally in an |
2 !
: ¢ | opexation like this be limited by time available for the |
g 7 | Photographer. You would be limited by daylight. You would |
s : | not photograph a milkman, or a mailman or somebody who would
~ {
3 3 | be there repeatedly. You would not photograph a staffer of
a i |

'¢ ji the Embassy if once you knew who he was, unless he was walking
i!
i

“on “with somebody.

VASHTHCTON ,

iz il You would not photograph a regular visitor to the Embassy,

13 \se you knew who he was.

i Mr. Goldsmith. Would you photograph all foreigners?

18 : Mr. Shaw. I do not know. I would have to say the answer

REPORTERS BUTED ONG,

: jis no. I never photographed any of them. Do you mean would

aw:

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|
i foreigners be photographed? I would say, given the

jtimitations that I have enumerated, namely how long a person

STRELE ,

‘can sit there and watch, and they have to take a break now

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lana then, daylight, Sundays .. they probably did not photograph:

DSS :
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e va’ 2 lable down periods in this sort of operation. 4
af ON ;

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34

i

= 11 because there is little activity. I am sure there were consider-
“ No, I would say all foreigners were not photographed.
i

+ Ideally, you would like to have a picture of anybody who went

vin and out of there, surely.

HW 50955 Docld: 32277214 Page 40

DLUAZ:

— ; i

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re

Mr. Goldsmith. I understand that.

wt

My question is, while surveillance base was in operation,

|

|

i

would a primary purpose of it be to take pictures of foreigners?

ive

{
| Mr. Shaw. 1... Yes. That would have been a primary

|
2 3 | Purpose. Not necessarily foreiaqners, but people you do not :
: , | Feconize. Foreigners or Mexicans; Mexicans are foreigners |
|
3 ‘7 | to us, of course. |
S a4 Another thing they did, by the way, was they tried to
: 3 | photograph the license plates of automobiles that came to these!
a i
= | embassies. |
S 4 .
2 ry Mr. Goldsmith. During what hours were these: photo bases |
= i : H
é “yt in operation? :
@ z 13 | Mr. Shaw. I do not know. I would say most likely during !
= i
2 ‘ ipusiness hours and proper daylight conditions, when the |
: 1s | photogeaphes was available to do the job. |
S i
= 14 Mr. Goldsmith. Would you read back that answer? :
= in| The Reporter: “Question: "During what hours were these |
E 13 jpnoto bases in operation?" ; !
n : . . i
: a Answer: "I do not know. I would say most Likely during |
é 40 [business hours and proper daylight conditions, when the a
_ 31 | photographer was available to do the job." |

Mr. Goldsmith. As a matter of routine, when would

i photographers have been available to do the job? .

Mr. Shaw. I do not know. I was not involved in these

e *

yw
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joperations:” I used to see quite a bit of coverage.

SECRET

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7? 1-41
Mx. Goldsmith. What were your primary responsibilities

when you were down there? You were not involved in the photo-

surveillance operation; you were not involved =~ excuse me

for interrupting you.

Mr. Shaw. Go ahead,

Mr. Goldsmith. You were not involved in the photo-

surveillance operation and you were not involved in the wire

tap operation, so, MY - question is, what was your primary

responsibility?

Mr. Shaw.. My primary responsibility was to try to
| effect penetrations of the Cuban government. I spent a good

bit of time with Cubans of the non-Castro persuasion, attempt-

ing to identify Cubans of the Castro persuasion that we might
go after.
By "go after," I mean attempt to recruit.

I spent a lot of time collecting information from the

.> |Cuban asset on the outside.to process into the intelligence

reports on what was happening in Cuba.

We had a system set. up in Mexico City under an agent
‘called AMSATE who was the representative of the, exile commun-
ity. He would ae meet, hep, debrief, Cubans who were
arriving constantly from Cuba on the way to the United States
or to Mexico or to somewhere else in the world, people who.

were exiting Cuba.

Mexico did not break relations with Cuba as did the other)


SEURL eae

tap >

i countries of the Hemisphere. The OAS recommended that;

i
» i Mexico did not do it.
2 |
| Se, when the refugee flow dried up in Florida, we probably|
4 had one of the most productive operations there in Mexico !
$ 5 city reqarding information on what was going on in Cuba. |
: . | . I spent a lot of time with AMSAIL on that. :
3 ‘| “Mr. Goldsmith. Did. you ever try to recruit Eusbio Ascue? |
z 3 Mr. Shaw. His name is Eusbio Ascue. |
‘ 3 | Mr. Goldsmith. Yes. .
: tg ! Mr. Shaw. A-s-c-u-e. Fist name, E-u-s-b-i-o. |
c ' | . = did not try to recruit Ascue. That may have been |
2 9 jateenptes prior to my arrival, in which the man who would know |
. ey . . j
@ 2 4 about it, if it had been attempted, would be Mr~ Thomas |
: Ma | mazelit. ; . | | :
rg i - .
z \ Mr. Goldsmith. What about Teresa Proenza? f
_ 7 Mr. Shaw. No, I never made.any attempt to recruit |
= 7 Ineresa Proenza?
E 1a Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know if anyone ever did? ; |
= t
° 7 ~ Mr. Shaw. I know we had an officer in Washington who :
e 39 pps formerly served in Mexico City who was very interested |
— a fin Teresa Proenza. That officer's name.was Charles Anders.
Sra i

Mr, Goldsmith. Is he still with the Agency?
Mz. Shaw. It is my understanding that he is. i
Mr. Goldsmith. What about Guillermo Ruiz?

Mr. Shaw. That does not even ring a bell. Ruiz is a

BW 50955 Docld:39277214 Page 43

1-43
i |
; ty very common Spanish name. Do you want to tell me who he is
@ z or if you have.anything onuhim? Maybe it might ring arbell. |
| Mr. Goldsmith. Apparently, Mr. Ruiz was a Cuban intelli-
i i
= 4 gence officer at the Embassy, Cuban Embassy.
| . , +
Z 5 | Mr. Shaw. I do not recall him there when I was there.
F 5 | Mr. Goldsmith. What did you say that Mr. Ray Swider's |
~ i : . ;
¢ 7 | responsibilities were, i£ you said?
5S si Mr. Shaw. I did not say. I used his name -- he was
: 3 | another officer, like I was, in Cuban operations.
a iH
= 0 | Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether he had anything to
: 1 | do with the photo operation... |
E 2 Mr. Shaw. I do nét know. He may have; I do not know. |
i H
eg 12 I do not think: he did. He may. have.. |
Mr. Goldsmith. After your arrival in Mexico City, did
{ :
i

i anyone attempt to recruit Ascue?

REGRESS BHUTLDERS ,
he

Mr. Shaw. As far as I know,. there was no attempt made :

We,

4 .

17 | to recruit Ascue after my arrival. My memory could be playing ,
i |
|

STREET, oS.

tricks on me. 2 know I never went after him.

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= 17 (A brief recess was taken.) ~
Pied i .
= 76 “Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to get into the number of
=~ 7 | people who were in Cuban Operations in Cetober of '63, September,
OSS |
Psi 4 :

© pa 122} October of '63. Could you tell me again how many?

235 Mx. Shaw. If you could show me a list of the people at
pO .
o a4 | the American Embassy at that time, I think I could pretty well |
| oo, .
,quickly, in the ‘station -- if you have such a list, I probably |

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Mr. Shaw. Do you have one lying around?

Mr. Goldsmith. No.

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Mr. Goldsmith. How many case officers were there?in

Mr. Shaw. Probably-just three, three or four, I am not i

Mr. Goldsmith. There were three case officers,probably

Mc. Shaw. At least. three, yes. Dave and Ray and myself.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was theresa fourth?

Mr. Shaw. I do not know. I cannot recall, offhand, who
was there.
Wait. a minute. Lorna McKay was there, as a researcher --

was it called? Research analyst. .

SECRET

HW 50955 Docld: 32277214 Page 45 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPARY

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Mx. Goldsmith. I am interested now only in case officers.

i.do-have avlist:here, réferred..to-as CIA:169-70; which |
i has’ a list of Agency employees. Would you please examine that
| List? |
(pause) |
“| Mc. Shaw. Okay. |
iL.
) Perhaps there would have been myself, Ray Swider, Dave
|
\ phillips and” Lorna McKay. | .
Mr. Goldsmith. Was Lorna McKay a case officer? |
Mr. Shaw. Lorna McKay was not. considered -~ yes, I guess |
| she was a case officer. I do not know what cases she handled. |
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| She did more of what we call INTEL analyst work. She had
i ; |
| officer rank, I believe. I believe she was a GS-9 or -ll or |
| something. ‘I do not remember.
But Peaqqy; the girl I mentioned awhile ago, was not there
vontil 1965. That was about it.
The ranking would have been David Phillips, myself, |
“Ray swider, Lorna McKay. |
' ° Mr. Goldsmith. How did you divide up your responsibilities?
i Mr. Shaw. Let me interject. Jack Stewart was there, but |

: fo.
‘he was not in Mexico City. He was in Yucatan, in the consulate.

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! How did you four divide up your responsibilities?
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other activities he would pass around. I notice --

Mr. Goldsmith. Whichwwere those other activities?

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Mr. Shaw. Anything that might come to light. that Dave

i would -~- an ad hoc requirement;,,or something Like that, he

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= 7 [one time for one of these guys: down here. ‘It had nothing to

S = ja with Cuban Ops.

3 | Mx. Goldsmith. What procedures did the four of you

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= o establish for reviewing photographs?

: nl Mr. Shaw. The only procedure that was established was

3 2 | route the photographs and show them to any agent, personnel, |

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e 33 | who might be in a position to identify the persons in the

: | photographs. 7

E is | Mr. Goldsmith. Did any of you identify all the photographs

: fan the Cuban Operation Branch? !

4 P| Mr. Shaw. I do not know. |

5 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Was there a system to this? |

a

£ : Mr. Shaw. If there was, I did not set it up. When I got |

S * | potoorane I would show them to LITAMIL-9 and have him tell |

-ww- ?' | me who they were and I would write a contact | report and submit
@ val 2 7 it to my Chief, who was Dave Phillips. ; ,
I would assume that Ray Swider probably did the same

| thing with his agents.
2 Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, unless there was a system for |

bs SECRET

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HW 50955 Docla:32277214 Page 47 ALSERSON REPORTING COMBAMY

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reviewing the photographs, you had no way of knowing that
all of the photographs were being reviewed by you and other
| Cuban Operations.case officers?
Mr. Shaw. I had no way of knowing . I was seeing all the
| photographs, that is true. I assumed I did.

= Mr. Goldsmith. You had no way of knowing that?

Mr. Shaw. Not unless I would have gone to pick them up

4 from the man who took them and developed them, which I did not

| do. |

Mr. Goldsmith. With regard to the transcripts, did you
| have any procedure for insuring that aileof the transcripts

| were being reviewed?

| Mr. Shaw. Did I have a procedure? No. The station

| routed the transcripts to the various officers. Winn Scott
quite often routed them. I notice you had a transcript some-
where here -~

Mr. Goldsmith. .We will look at the transcripts later on.

Mr. Shaw. Winn Scott quite often routed those to a
leno officer.

Cuban operations that were sent to the station reviewed by at
‘ least one of the Cuban operations case officers?

Mr. Shaw. I do not know.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was Mr. Scott a very demanding man?

Mr. Shaw. What do you mean by "demanding"?

SEGRET

ALSERSO PORTING COM PmaMoy

Mr. Goldsmith. Were all of the transcripts pertaining’ to.


SEGRE:

Mr. Goldsmith. Did he expect his employees to work hard

1-48

and to perform thorough, competent work?

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Mr. Shaw. I assume he did. He never said so in so many

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words.

8 It was my understanding that until he was remarried he

5 worked long hours in the Embassy, before I got there. Sometimes
|.

> he had people in there at. 9:00 o'clock at night.

3 | Mr. Goldsmith. Compared to other station chiefs that

5 | you had worked under, was he more demanding or less?

tg ' Mr. Shaw. I would not say he was any more. He expected |

1 | work out of his people and got it. |

at Mr. Goldsmith. Is it fair to say that the Mexico City

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Mr. Shaw. Certainly in Latin America.

Mr. Goldsmith. Any CIA station?

me Mr. Shaw. I don't*®knew about any CIA station. Certainly
7 in Latin America. It ate up a lot of man hours.

Mr. Goldsmith. In light of the fact that Mr. Scott

apparently was a demanding man and that you had one of the © |

largest surveillance operations in effect in Latin America,

your testimony today is that you do not know whether the Cuban |

i operations case officers reviewed all of the transcripts?
4

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Mr. Shaw. I do not. think that. the prefacing was necessary.

23 |The latter part of that, in which you asked me if I am aware

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BW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 49 ALDERSON REPORTING COs


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that all of the transcripts of the Cuban Ops were examined

49

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by the Cuban Ops section, I would have to, again, say I do

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not know.

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Mr. Goldsmith. We just went off the record for a moment

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20024 (202) 554-2405

Mr. Shaw, do you recall who delivered the photographs

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REPORTERS BU ELDENG,

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| Bat I would get a batch of photographs to go through.

i “Mr. Goldsmith. Who had reporting responsibility for

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i photographs and the transcripts?
Mr. Shaw. There was little reporting that came out of !

the photographs. Usually, it yielded what we called operational
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‘who was in the Cuban Embassy, and what they were up to.

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not remember where the report section was in the old embassy. |

We had reports: officers who actually repaired most of the’
reports from raw reports, if you will, reported by. the case !
officers.

F Again, I would like to point out that these photographs

yielded very: little reportable intelligence. It was mostly

operational intelligence.

Mr. Goldsmith. Understood.
Who was George Monroe?
Mr. Shaw. George Monroe was a former agent, Special: Agent}

1 of the Federal Bureau of Investigation .who retired or resigned,

I do not know how he left the Bureau, and worked in Mexico

39277214 Page 51

| City on the outside, aS=a non-official cover asset for Winn
eS 2 | scott. Ann Goodpasture, I believe, had a lot of contact with
i | George Monroe. _I very seldom saw George Monroe. I had nothing
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z 5 Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know what his responsibilities
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= 7 Mr. Shaw. I believe his responsibilities had to do with !
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5 7 Ministry came, for example, the man who became President of |
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2 ms Mr, Goldsmith. You mentioned earlier.. Mr. Charles Ander- |
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: 1s | Mr. Shaw. ‘Yes. :
; 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know. why Mr. Anderson had an inter
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: 3 | Mr. Shaw. No, I do not believe it was. I think it was |
< 2 | Teresa Proenza. I do not think he had any interest in Ascue. |

Mr. Goldsmith. Who was the individual who had the

" interest in Ascue?

Mr. Shaw. I do not know. I said if it had been before

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HW 50955 Docld:322977214 Page 52

1-52

a activity. I do not knew that he did, but if it happenéd in,

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5 7 Mr. Shaw. He was not at the Embassy then. He was at
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iS 7 At that time, Charlie hdd gone back to Headquarters and.he
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was involved in Cuban operations from Headquarters, the detail

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| of which were notomade known to me. Whether they were made

known to Winn Scott or Dave Phillips or others, I do not know.

VASHTHCTON ,

Mr. Goldsmith. When would he have made an effort, if

he did, to recruit Teresa Proenza?

42

i Mr. Shaw. .I am not sure that he ever tried to recruit.

| I am merely saying that he had a lot of interest, »I do not

REPORTERS WU CLDTNG ,
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1, | think anybody ever tried to recruit her. If they did; they

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were wasting their time,

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‘ew I |
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= 19} MY. Shaw. She was a pretty tough nut. I never saw ~~ if.
é 30 | I canwremember ~~ I do not. remember any vulnerability of

Teresa Proenza. |

Mr. Goldsmith. What was the nature of Mr. Andersan's

23

interest in her?
. j

Mr. Shaw. I do not know. Some Cuban operational interest,

ee

i

73 i maybe trying to get some information from her through a third

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HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 33

es 1-53
; | party. I have no idea.
| : ; :
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@ 2 | Mr, Goldsmith. When did he spend time in Mexico City that

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Mr. Shaw. He visited Mexico City quite often.

= 5. Mr. Goldsmith. Even though he was not stationed down
: , | there, he visited often? :
: 7 Mr. Shaw. That is correct. He madé trips in and out of

z : Mexico City.

. 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know what Teresa Proenza's position

‘| . :
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Mrs Shaw. I think by that time she was out of the Embassy

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was she not? I do not. remember. She left.

Teresa Proenza was a Mexican. She was not.a Cuban. And

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i Teresa had left the Embassy. I may be wrong. I think that

REPGETP ES RUTED ING ,
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she was involved in cultural activities.

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—— 7! | how effective Mexican. intelligence was. I did not deal with

it.

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“It would be assumed that they made every attempt, the

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ALDERSON REPORT COMBARLY

HW 50955 Docld: 32277214 Page 54

1-54

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i | Mexican government, given its position, was the only government,
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2 | Cuba, would have been -- it would have been highly unlikely for!

: ij them to have tried to pitch a Cuban national.

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On the other hand, I think it would have been likely,

and would have been expected of them, to have tried to find

out from any Mexican working in the Cuban Embassy what was going
I

on.

20024 (202) SSu-23405
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What this comes down to, of course, is gardenérs. and :

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secretaries...

>

Mr. Goldsmith. Why do you make that distinction between

VASUTHGTON ,

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a Cuban national and a Mexican?

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Mr. Shaw. I make that distinction because of the flap

potential If the Mexicans had attempted to pitch a Cuban and

tery

the Cuban had not accepted that pitch and had reportéd it

REPORTERS BHOLLDENG ,

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to his superiors, the Mexican Foreign Office then would have

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had a problem with the Cuban Foreign Ministry.
Mr. Goldsmith. Of course, the Mexican government was
also taking a risk by being involved in the liaison operation

or the Agency as well.

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Mr. Shaw. One could assume that they had measured their |

operation. Do not get me wrong. I do not know whether they

had anything going or not. I would assume, just based on my

@ re’ i> risk, yes, certainly. There is an element of risk in every

experience, that they would not have tried to pitch Cubans,

HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 55

1-55

; | that they would have tried to exert subtle coercion on

Mexicans working there to report in the interest of Mexican

national security on what is going on in that Embassy.

Mr. Goldsmith. Who would have been in a position to know

re

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Es 7 if the Mexican government successfully penetrated the Cuban
5 7 Embassy or consulate?
E 7 | Mr. Shaw. The President of Mexico would have known.
S z | The chief of chiefs of the Mexican service or services.
= i
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: ro | Mr. Shaw. Not that I know of.
: | Mr Goldsmith. Do you know whether there was. any coordin
$ 2 | tion between the telephone tap operations and the photo
@ 2 1a operations. For example, if a conversation of interest came
E 1} up on the tap operation, would the people monitoring the call
2 il
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E 1g | to warn them or indicate to them that someone is coming of
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: a Mr. Shaw. It is my understanding that such a system did
: 3 | not exist, and I do not believe that. the guys monitoring the
¢ | eetotone tap intercept bases were made aware of photograph
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However, I. would assume that a man running a technical

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|
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if .
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officer right away and then it might be possible for the case

HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 56


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officer, assuming a quick reaction capability, to crank up

|the people at the photo house to take pictures. This «was in

the most perfect of all worlds. Usually things did not work

that way and you end up out on»the street, in the middle of

ithe night two days later, contacting whoever it is taking

photographs.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you. know whether the Mexico City
station ever obtained a photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Shaw. To my understanding, they did not. I never
saw anything down there that looked like Lee Harvey Oswald.

“Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever hear an allegation that
Charlotte Bustos, at CIA Headquarters in Washington, found a
photograph. of Oswald, or Somedne she thought to be Oswald,
in the Headquarters files shortly after the assassination?

-Mr. Shaw. No, I have never heard such a story. Knowing
Charlotte -- not knowing her well, but having known her over
the years, I would assume that had she found such a thing
she would have rung a big loud bell and say, hey, look what
I found. :

Mr. Goldsmith. With regard’ tothe. photo. operation, . ‘let.
us-assume, for a-moiment that. you-come.across a picture of
mnterest. Did you have any way of determining on what day and.
approximately what time the. picture would have been taken?

Mr. Shaw. Very definitely.

Mr. Goldsmith. How would you have done that?

ALSESSON REPORTING COMaaKy

HW 50955 Docld: 32277214 Page 57 \

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1-57

ij Mr. Shaw. The photographs were squared off and were

ho

og | annotated. We knew the day. We knew, usually, morning or

aad

afternoon, a.m. or p.m. Sometimes you could judge by the

e 4 | sequence.

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Furthermore, sometimes the actual time of the person going

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in and going out was actually annotated, if the person operating

was operating manually, he would no doubt, the guy with the

20024 (202) SSH-2345
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red~checkered Hawaiian shirt went in at 10:05. - He would note

| that in a little log.

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I do not know whether he would note it on the photograph

HW or submit the log with the number keyed to thé log in the

UASEELMGTON,

photograph. Quite often we knew to the minute when a person

by.

Mr. Goldsmith. I see.

REPORTERS BUTEDING,

So, to your knowledge, there were photo-production logs

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| that could be checked?

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13 i Mr. Shaw. To my knowledge, such logs did exist, yes. :

Whether the logs were kept after the information was noted on

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the photograph, on the back of the photograph or wherever it

was noted, I haverno idea.

The photographs, quite often came in the form of 35 mm.

contact strip prints and then blow-ups of a number of those.

I recall #- I had not thought about it all these years,

:

as ‘put usually you knew when a quy, you. certainly knew when he went

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HW 50955 Docld: 32277214 Page 56

1-58"

in on Tuesday morning, the 16th of May, whatever that date

| was
1 Mr. Goldsmith. Who would make the notations on the back af
' |
a 4 | the photograph or contact print as to the time? |
t
E 3 Mr. Shaw. In our case, I believe it was the man taking |
3 . the photographs because he took the photographs, developed |
s + | the photographs, printed them and turned them over.
as a Mr. Goldsmith. If he were to put the time on, he would
: ; | nave to go to his loq and see what the time was and then make |
: 1g | the entry? |

Mr. Shaw. Right. He probably made a little notation to

WASTELICTON,

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i he would recognize that person in the photograph and make that

REPORTERS GELDING,

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is | -(Pause)
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; Lee Harvey Oswald came to your attention? :
Mr. Shaw. It would have been the evening of the day of
the assassination. . '

Mr. Goldsmith. How did that:happen?

Mr. Shaw. We listened. We hada radio. I think it was |

one of those Zenith Trans-Oceanics in one of the Embassy

offices. : |

I was out at an agent meeting when I heard about the

assassination and I came back to the Embassy and went upstairs |

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and we sat and stood around that radio and I believe it was
in Pat Johnson's officé -- her name was something else in
those days. I can't remember her married name.

And they said something about the police said it was Lee
Harvey Oswald, or something. I do not remember. That was the
first time that it came to my attention.

Mr. Goldsmith. I would like you now to take a look at
CIA No. 13 which is a transcript of the conversation allegedly
involving Oswald, a conversation taking place on 1 October '63
Would you please read through that?

(Pause)

When was the first time that you saw that transcript, if
you have ever seen it before?

Mr. Shaw. I do not. know whether I have ever seen it or
not, but I may’ well have. I was aware that he had called the
Soviet Embassy, was made aware after the notoriety of the man
was established, but I do not recall ever seeing this before
that.

Normally, I would not.

Mr. Goldsmith. Prior to the assassination, did you see
it?

Mr. Shaw. No. If I did, I did not pay any attention.

I do not believe that it was on a Cuban line.

Mr. Goldsmith. No, it was not.

Mr. Shaw. Sometimes you can tell who saw these things by

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:
. |
iy
| \
: |

“Mr. Goldsmith. There are notwritings or notations on that!
|

1 |
!

; | one, however. '

| Would you please read CIA 177, which is a cable from 7
= : | Mexico City station dated October 8th?
* i i
2 7 (Pause) |
g 7 | Mr. Shaw. Yes, this is typical where they try to identity
& : | sonenoey that was in the Embassy at the same time. Of course, |
ial i
; » | that does not-sound like it.
: 0 Mr. Goldsmith. This was the famous cable that has given !
: 11 | rise to some of the issues that the Committee was concerned
= 4 :
g “| with. My first question is, did you have anything to do with |

@ : 12 | the writing of this cable?
E | Mr. Shaw. No;.I did not. I would not have had. |
bl i i
E 5 | Mr... Goldsmith. Do you know how the photograph referred |
E ie to in paragraph number two of that cable was in some way Linked
a 7 to Oswald?
i
: ia | - Mr. SHaw. I would assume my answer to your question is ;
-
: re no. I would assume that this was an effort on the patt of |
é 29 | the person drafting the cable to help Headquarters identify. |
i

Lee Oswald, the man who had made the call. i

Mr. Goldsmith. Do-you know how she made that conclusion

21 | that the photograph reflected Oswald? i

@ ts Mr. Shaw. No. I do not think she did. I think she

25 | merely says that we got a guy who looks like he might be an

n
il
i

HW 50955 DocId: 32277214 Page 61

1-61 i

American going in, and maybe this is the fellow. I do not

ne

see from this cable any conclusion that that is Oswald. I

dad

| yather suspect they never got a picture of Oswald. This is

|
i} the one that appeared there, tthat looked like it could be

ian American. Therefore, an effort was made to help Headquarters

da

i q00 71H STREET, SoU, REPORTERS SUTLDING | HASENOTOH, B.C. 20024 (2702) S54-2345
4a

by saying a man who looked like he might be an American i

entered the Soviet Embassy at that time.

Mr. Goldsmith. JI agree with you, Mr. Shaw. Certainly,

o>

the cable does not say that the photograph is a photograph of

:
H
}
|
i

Oswald. At the same time, though, it gives the information

in paragraph 1 on Oswald and the second paragraph makes. -~

17 | reference to a photograph taken of someone who appears to be

- 13 | North American.

Certainly they woulld:not have sent to Headquarters simply

in

4a cable indicating the existence of a photograph, so by putting

j;the photograph in paragraph 2-immediately below the information

on

i

jon Oswald, although the cable does not say that the photograph

is one of Oswald, it does in some way suggest that they are

lvelated.
|
i ‘Mr. Shaw. It suggests to me that they know an American

|
r
'
iy

twho claimed to be Lee Oswald called at a certain time, and

then they went to the photographs to see if they could find

i
‘anybody who looked like he might be an American, and the

i

| photo they found was of a man apparently 35, athletic build,
| !
22 labout 6 feet tall, receding hair: line and so forth; and they

it

COME SALY

no,
HW O50955 Docld: 32277214 Page 62

1-62

7 submitted this on the off-chance that this might have beeni the |
ae 2 | man who made the call. |
3 | Mr. Goldsmith. I understand your answer. I am hopeful |
i
& 4 | that you understand that I am not. suggesting that the cable |
i : |
= 7 definitely says the photograph is one of Oswald.
~
2 5 Mr. Shaw. No, I do not. see that it does at all.
g 71 Mr. Goldsmith. Would you please take a look, now, at
= 3. CIA 183?
™
ra 3 | (Pause)
a i
= 10 | Mr. Shaw. All right, I have read it.
: in| Mr. Goldsmith. This is a cable,iis it not, from CIA
: 12 | Headquarters back to the Mexico City station responding to the |
e 3 13 earlier cable from the station reperting Oswald's contact? |
z 7 Mr. Shaw. That is what it looks like to me. :
: is: Mr. Goldsmith. The fifth paragraph of that cable requests
: ig | that the station keep Headquarters advised of any further
‘ 7 contacts or positive identification of Oswald?
: | Mr. Shaw. Yes. |
z a Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether the station ever sent
= 0 any additional information to Headquarters concerning Oswald? |
\ . i
ae Mr. Shaw. No, I do not, and I do not recall ever seeing :

this cable, either.

Mr. Goldsmith. Today is possibly the first time that you:
have seen that cable?

Mr. Shaw. It could well be, yes. You may have one with

Osage”
ous:

BSON RESORTING COMPAR

HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 63 ALGER

1-63

; | my initials on it, but I doubt it.

| |
a 2 | “Mr. Goldsmith. Looking at CIA 183, there is an arrow |
5 | pointedito the word "Henry", "Lee Henry Oswald." Adjacent to |
@ . the arrow it says "sic," s-i-c.
= a What do you think Mr. Scott was intending to indicate |
F , | when he wrote "sic" next to the "Henry". in "Lee Henry Oswald"? |
|
g 5] Mr. Shaw... i would rather. suspect that he wrote this on
& ; | here subsequent to the assassination when the word came out it was
; . "Harvey Oswald" rather than "Henry Oswald" unless there is '
: q | something in here that says "Harvey." Is there any? |
Ss { \
E rp Mr. Goldsmith. Nd, there is none. |
= i : H
3 a! . Mr. Shaw. I would imagine that is something he wrote
: to. |
@ 2 14 on later so that they would get the file in the right name.
= i}
2 14 | Bhat would be my quess.
a i ;
: sl Mr. Goldsmith. Would you now take a look at CIA No. 14. |
z Is | ¥ou may also want to take a look at CTAANO. 15 at the same |
: , | tame. a :
a (Pause) |
: a | Would you identify the document that you just reviewed? ,
é 0 Mr. Shaw. What it. looks like is a normal LIENVOY trans- |
1 t
2! leription. I see my name up here, but I don't see anything

(cf
te

i that indicates that I ever saw it. It looks like Scott and

KR
ces]

| Goodpasture made checks on it. There is my name, but there

i 274 /4s no indication, no initial on my; part. Probably I did not.

we
ba

see it. ,

aq
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:
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BW 50955 Docld:39277214 Page 64


1-64
by Mr. Goldsmith. What is the date of that transcript?

@ . 1 | ; " Mr. Shaw. 28 September 1963 is what is listed on here.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you recall whether you ever saw that

|
i
« i
4 | transcript before?

3 s | _ Mr. Shaw. I do not recall. I must have seen it after- |
F é wards, because : know Sylvia Duran was a person who had dealt |
S 7 with Oswald.
~
NS 3 -Mr. Goldsmith. When was the first time that this. trans-
= '
: 3 eript was linked to Oswald?
- 1g Mr. Shaw. I have no idea. |
Se i |
2 ti Mr. Goldsmith. Let us backstep for a moment. The i
$ 12 | transcript that appears at CIA No. 13 contains a notation in |
_ { .
o : = a | brackets by the transcriber that this is the same person who

i td called a day or so ago. :
: 1s | Mr, Shaw. To the Soviet Embassy. * * |
2 1é ; Mr. Goldsmith. Yes. : |
7 7 | . Oswald also said I was there last Saturday. The trans=- |
- ia | eript you just looked at, September 28th, was for a Saturday. !
. 13 Do you recall whether anyone ever came to you and asked |
= i ;
é 29 you whetheryyou were aware of a contact by Oswald? !

vem Uf Mr. Shaw. I do not recall that anybody ever came to me, |

@ fe? 72 | and I do not think that they did. This sounds familiar. I
would have heard about this after the assassination, because

i

|
e@ 24 1 I remember Sylvia Duran was the person being a Mexican citizen:

i i

|

inside the Cuban Embassy who I dealt with.

HW 50955 Doold: 32277214 Page 65

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that happened a

Mr. Shaw.

ever came to. me

1 at CIA Nos. 16,

! (Pause)
Mr. Shaw.

iaitials -- No,
Let me see

(Pause) ¢

| document No. 22.

Hy
i
Mr. Shaw.
|

Mr. Shaw.

Mr. Shaw.

1-65

Mr. Goldsmith. In other words, the point I was making

on the October lst transcript, it refers back to something

day or two earlier, possibly Saturday, and

I wondered if Herb Minnell, when they were discussing this,

| came to you to discuss this matter?

I do not believe they did. Barbara probably

would have processed this, but I do not recall that anybody

about it.

Mr. Goldsmith. Fine. Would you please now take a look

17, 18,:19 and 20?

Here you have one that I saw. Those are my
19. I did not see this one.

what we have got here.

I have read it.

| Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, you have read through CIA

Yes, I have not read them carefully, but I

| have looked them over.
Mr. Goldsmith. Taking a look at CIA No. 16, could you

identify that document?

This is a LIENVOY transcript,

It is a summary.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is it a summary or a verbatim transcript? -

Pare Fl ~
ge ra q
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1~66

i Mr. Goldsmith. What is the date of that transcript?

2 | Mr. Shaw. According to the thing in the margin, 27
3 | September '63, 1963. This is really the same darned thing :
4 | here. |
2 7 Mr. Goldsmith. The same as the transcript that appears |
5 4 on CIA No. .17? |
g ri Mr. Shaw. It appears to be,
x al Mr. Goldsmith.. Approximately what time was this phone |
3 3 call received?
: oo _ Mr. shaw. It looks like something put on by pen, "Five |
Z 7 minutes after 4:00 in the afternoon." MF means a woman -~- |
s ro is that MF? |
et 2 id Mr. Goldsmith. Dovnot WOLTy about that. |
= i
= ou | When was the first time you sawrthis transcript? |
: | Mr. Shaw. I do not remember.. :
Z 1s Mr. Goldsmith. bid you see it before the assassination? |
= i

a 17 | Mr. Shaw. I have no idea. :
z a Mr. Goldsmith. Yournname appears in the right-hand ,
2 13 | corner. 7
é 2 | Mr. Shaw. My name appears there. However, it is not
;
i

| crossed out. If you turn over a conple of pages, you will see |

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my initials on another thing.which deals with the same period.

Do you know whether this transcript was linked to Oswald

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Mr. Goldsmith. I will do that in a minute.
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prior to the assassination?

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HW 50955 Docld: 32277214 Page 67

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HW 40955 DocId:

1-67

Mr. Shaw. I do not know whether it was or not. I
gather it was not.

Mr. Goldsmith. Why is that?

Mr. Shaw. It does not say. There is no mark on it,
Oswald on here anywhere.

Mr. Goldsmith. What are these numbers on the bottom
right-hand a

Mr. Shaw. That is the file number.

Mr. Goldsmith. What file would that be?

Mr. Shaw. That says subject file. 50-8-10-6. I do not
know off-hand what that is. I think the 50 stands for
Mexico. 8-10-6 would be a subject file.

Probabl¥, possibly somephace where they put..anformation

on people where they are trying to travel to the Soviet Union.

I do not know; that is a guess.
Mr. Goldsmith. Let's take a look at CIA No. 19.

Mr. Shaw. Okay. CIA No. 19, 27 September, that looks

ilike my initial. It is very similar.

Mr. Goldsmith. In the upper right-hand corner?
Mr. Shaw. I cannot imagine anyone else putting it there.

Mr. Goldsmith. This is the conversation that took place

‘later in the day, is that correct?

Mr. Shaw. 27 September 63, right.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is it fair to say that this conversation

‘took place sometime around 4:26 in the afternoon, according to


1-68

the documents?

ie)

Mr. Shaw. There is an» indication there.
|

Mr. Goldsmith! When did this document first come to your ;

roy

4 | attention? . :
Z | Mr. Shaw. I havetno idea, because there is no date up |
5 é | there. I do not ‘know when it was circulatédsor anything. 3
E 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know when it was first linked-to
. S 4 Oswald? : |
34 Mr. Shaw. I do not.
= i cS
: | Mr. Goldsmith. Did Herbert or Barb Minnell ever come to |
=
2 i you to discuss this transcript or conversation with you in |
3 13 | reference to the transcript. dated October lst? |
eG 2 13 Mr. Shaw. Not that I remember. |
= i ; .
2 ts | Mr.. Goldsmith. At the bottom of CIA No. 19, it says
Fa i
: i! copy Oswald P-file. Essentially, do you know when that nota- !
Z ey tion was put on?
a 7 Mrs Shaw. I do not know. |

ia Mr. Goldsmith. Turning back to CIA-177, there is a

a \
= 19 | notation on the left-hand side of the page. It says, D:200-5-41.
5 ; Do you know what that would refer to?

Mr. Shaw. I have no idea what the D stands for. The

|
| 200-5-41 sounds like a file number.
Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know for what?

Mr. Shaw. No, I.do not, but I would assume, again, that

i maybe that would be -- if it is in the 50 series, it would be

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H¥ 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 70

1-69
a Mexico City file. But it may be a Headquarters -- is this
a Mexico City document, or a Headquarters document?

Mr. Goldsmith. This is a Headquarters document.

Mr. Shaw. That is a Headquarters file number. I have no

idea what the D stands for. It does not look right.

Mr. Goldsmith. I have asked this question before, but
for the record and purposes of clarification, I would like to
ask you again, to your knowledge, after the Mexico City sta-
tion received the cable from Headquarters dated October 10th
or lith, did. the: Mexico city Station ever send any additional
information concerning Oswald to Headquarters?

Mr. Shaw. To my knowledge, they did not, but I would
have no way of knowing.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever speak to Herb Minnell about
this?

Mr. Shaw. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. Barbara Minnell?

Mr. Shaw. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. Dave Phillips?

Mr. Shaw. No. -

Mre Goldsmith. What, if anything, do you know about the
arrest of Sylvia Duran shortly after the assassination?

Mr. Shaw. 1 remember that Sylvia Duran was arrested.

I do not know why. I could have suggested that myself, but I

do not. remember.

ALDERSON RESORTING COMPANY


Sw bw 1-70

iG I do remember sending a message to Winn Scott suggesting

@ 4 that, right after the assassination, that the Mexicans put in

dad

a ving of guards aruund the Cuban Embassy and question everybody
if

a 4 | going in and out. I remember that idea coming out of my |
2 7 head. |
~ |
F 7 -  ' Ipknow that Sylvia Duran was arrested. She was fair game |
E | because she was a Mexican national and the Cubans -- she did |
= 4
7 not have any Cuban diplomatic immunity. oe |
~ 7 t would have thought it would have been a good idea to |

1g question here very closely. As to whether I said that she |
| should be arrested or I had anything to do with that, I do |

tz | not know. I was perfectly capable of making such a suggestion

-Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know why Headquarters was upset

about that arrest?

Mr. Shaw. I have no idea.

REPORTERS BULLDING, HASIFINGCTON, 6. c.
: a

1 Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know why Headquarters did not want.
r 7 | any Americans to confront her or to interview her? |
a :
2 1a | Mr. Shaw. Wo.
: a Mr. Goldsmith. Do you have any reason to believe that :
é 20 | Oswald may have been an agent of the KGB?

Mr. Shaw. I have no reason to believe it. i
Mr. Goldsmith. How about an agent, asset or source of

' the CIA?

Mr. Shaw. I would think that that would be completely

day

, out of the question.

i
5
a
3
H

HW 50955 Docld: 32277214 Page fi

1-71

i: Mr. Goldsmith. For purposes of the record, could you

© 3 explain why you think that would be out of the question? |
7 Mr. Shaw. Because I think it would have come to light |
GO 4 ! immediately had he had any CIA connections. |
= :| Mr. Goldsmith. In what manner?
F | Mr. Shaw. Somebody would have revealed this fact.
S 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Had he been an agent of the CIA, asset or
& 3 | employee, is it possible that someone would have been able to
e ;
: 7 cover that fact up?
: fo | Mr. Shaw. I do not think anyone could have covered up. |
S |
g n | Mr. Goldsmith. Why not? |
B i

{
12 Mr. Shaw. Had he been an agent, then it would have been
13 yon the record somewhere.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is it possible that the record could have

ibeen erased or*®purdged in some way?

REPOITEES BUCLDENG,
cary 4

1s Mr. Shaw. I seriously doubt it.

ue

$

7 Mr. Goldsmith. Could you give a reason?

STRERT,
on

; Mr. Shaw. Just my belief in the integrity of the organiza-
i . i
| :
No tog !
= 19 |thon. It stands on that, and the people in it. i
~ H . {
é 20 | Mr. Goldsmith. Does the Agency, to your knowledge, have
| , ;
| ; :
3! Hany safeguards to prevent records from being erased or purged?
nS |
io haven ne
Se .
@ ea 228 Mr. Shaw. Nowadays, of course, we have laws which say
i i

23 Hyou can't destroy material. I would say that the safequards
ri) at again come back to the basic integrity of the people in the

2i jorganization. When you lose a President, you do not mess

ib

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it
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HW 50955 Docld: 32277214 Page 72

1-72

j | around, and I think everybody would have turned over every

eed

possible stone to find out anything they could that would be

useful in determining the responsibility for that assassina-

|
4+} tion. |
1
E § I know I would have. I was a Kennedy man, and I imagine |
3 a there were a lot of us in the outfit who identified very |
S 7 closely with the President.
S 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever know anybody by the name of
: ¢ | Maurice Bishop? . |
: 1G | Mr. Shaw. No. _ ,
: ni Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether David Phillips, or |
g 12" anyone else, ever used the name Maurice Bishop as an operational
@ : 13 alias of some kind? :
z l4 . Mr.. Shaw. I am not aware that they did, but I would
: 5 | nave to answer your question no. Dave Phillips does not seem |
: 5 | Like a Maurice type, somehow. — :
4 7 | Mr. Goldsmith. Did Headquarters ever criticize the |
: ia Mexico City station in any way for its handling of the Oswald
2 |
: 2 | matter prior to the assassination?
S 20 | Mr. Shaw. Not that I am aware of. |

Mr. Goldsmith. For that matter, after the assassination?

Mr. Shaw. Not that I am aware of. I must add that ;
crititism would have been conveyed to the Chief of Station

rather than to the case officers.

as
pa

Mr. Goldsmith. When Oswald returned to the United: 5tates |

HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 3

1-73

i | from the ‘Soviet Union, would it have>been standard operating

be

procedure for the Agency to have interviewed him or debriefed

' him in some way?

ae

Mr. Shaw. No. I think that it would have been more

E : | likely for the FBI to interview him.

Se 4 so Mr. Goldsmith. Why is that?

5 7 Mr. Shaw. Because he was an American citizen in the

S - United States. That was the FBI's territory.

a : ;

J a) Mr.Goldsmith. Even though Oswald worked for several
< :

= 16 : years -- not for several years, but for. sometime ~- ina

Es 7 radio factory while he was in Russia?

a i

oe Mr. Shaw. I was not aware that. he worked in a radio

1] | factory, but the fact that he had been in the Soviet Union,
| .

fa : the Fact that he had been in the United States Marine Corps,
d

1s | would indicate to me that if he had been interviewed, he

REPORTEES BULLDING ,

ig | would have been interviewed by the FBI.

4 7 | Mr. Goldsmith. Does not the Agency have a Domestic

5 is | Contacts Division, or service, which customarily interviews

an { .

z a people who have been abroad in Communist countries?

= 2 | Mr. Shaw. The Adency has the Domestic Contacts Division.
cee a | Tt used to be called 0/G Contacts. I never worked with those

@ a 22 people.
22 It is my understanding that what they do is routinely

of
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2

debrief, if the person is willing, businessmen -- in the old

days, tourists ~~ who had visited the Soviet Union, or to

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debrief a man who might have other involvement inthe Soviets
would not, I believe, have fallen within the purview of the
O/O Contacts Branch.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you have any knowledge of the opera-
tional activity of the CI/SIG Branch of the CIA?

Mr. Shaw. No. I do not know what SIG means. I have
never heard of CI/SIG.

CI is Counterintelligence. staff, I don't know what Sic
is.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, I would like to thank you for
your testimony today. I especially would like to thank you
for spending all of this time with us. I know that you have
been here since approximately 3:00 o'clock or so and it is
now about 7:30. You have been very patient.

Customarily, whenever a witness testifies before the
Committee, the witness is given an opportunity to make a
statement for the record. This is not. a hearing, but I would
like to give you the same opportunity, if you would like to

take advantage of it.

Mr. Shaw. Well, I might take advantage of it. I had not.

thought about it until you mentioned it, but harkening back

to what I said a little while ago, I do believe that our

: organization was made up of, like Bill Colby has on the cover
: | of his book over there on the next table, of honorable men,

' and I do not think that anyone in the organization would have

4

'
!

i

1-75

i

i | allowed any cover-up or any destruction of evidence which might
|
@ : 2 shed some light onithe assassination of President Kennedy. |
3 I might add a little vignette. We had what it called a |
a . 4 Libra ‘-Pecima. - which is a book that the people signed when |
z : | they come to a funeral or something. You may have run into
: < | something like this in the states, when you go in and sign
g 7 in at the funeral parlor that you were there or something.
S 2 | You express your regrets -- .pecima, in Spanish, means regrets,
: # | or sorrow. . |
so
z ‘0 | We had a book down in the lobby of the Embassy building
2 | ana when I came out one day shortly after the assassination |
: 12. |) somebody in the crowd yelled Spanish for Bob, and I went over |
@ : 13 Pana it. 2 was the Governor of the State of sonora, which is
2 fa ha big state up in northwestern Mexico. I had known him some
: 5 | years earlier. He was the son of the General who was the |
= iI i
= Is) outstanding military leader of the Mexican Revolution from :
4 i7 | about 1913 to about 1920. |
3 1a | His father had been President of Mexico... His father was |
a
= | assassinated, having. been elected to a second term. He was
5 29 | already elected; he had not taken office. |
| |

I was profoundly touched by the presence of this son of |

an assassinated President in the lobby of our Embassy to, in

turn, express his sorrow to us for the assassination of our

President.

as
£5
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That does not. prove anything one way or another, but it

ALOERSON COMPS

HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 76

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322977214 Page 77

made a tremendous effect on me.

As I mentioned very early in our session today, I am not
aware that there was any exultation, satisfaction, or happi-
ness inside the Cuban Embassy over the assassination of the
President. And I think, and my personal belief is, that
everything points to Lee Harvey Oswald having done it, and
done it alone.

There is nothing I have ever seen or heard which would
lead me to. accept, for one moment, any complicity on the part
of my Agency or any other agency of the United States
government.

Mr. Goldsmith. Thank you, Mr. Shaw.

I would like to add that as soon as the transcript of
this deposition is available, we will be in touch with you
so that you can have an opportunity to review it for accuracy
and again, I would like to thank you for your time and help
today.

Mr. Shaw. I thank you, gentlemen.

(Thereupon, at 7330 p.m. the Executive Session recessed.)


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: CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER

I, Rosemary c. Tascione, the officer before whom the
foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify that the
witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing deposition
[was duly sworn by the Notary; that the testimony of said wit-
ness was taken by myself, stenomask reporter, and thereafter
reduced to typewriting under my direction; that I am neither
counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties
to the action in which this deposition was taken, and further,
(that I am not.a relative or employee of any attorney or
; counsel employed by the parties thereto, nor financially

j . . . .
4 or otherwise interested in the cutcome of the action.

ae Roseinein, C- Laorisne»

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