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DATE: 03/25/1976 |
PAGES: 40 "
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HY 50955 Daocld: 3242735521

SSCSGO, METHODOLOGY
COMMITTEE BUSINESS

TRANSCRIPT
Declassified
1B; 1C

Redact
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CCBOX 324

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08/07/95

ee so
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ORIGINATOR : SSCIA i; ,
FROM : I
TO : lie <
TITLE : i
DATE : 03/25/76 - io
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SUBJECTS : SSCSGO, METHODOLOGY

COMMITTEE BUSINESS
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DOCUMENT TYPE : TRANSCRIPT -
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RESTRICTIONS : REFERRED it
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Vol 2 OF 3

. | | | a Ghe uited ‘States Seuate Raens

wit
it
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‘Report of Proceedings: -

va
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ye

Hearing. held before

44
i

Senate Select committee to Study Governmental

Operations With Respect} to Intelligence: Activities

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‘|

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fll
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“Thursday, March 25, 1976
Washington, D.C. :

(Stenotype Tape. and Waste turned’ over
to the Committee for destruction).
Eh .

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[ o
i: . : a
“WARD & PAUL. |

oe ; 410 FIRST STREET, 8. EB.
oe | |. WASHINGTON, D. C. 20008:

(202) 544-6000

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“HW 50955 Bocld: 32742735271 Page 3

a NATIONAE: SECURITY: INFORMATIOI

Unauthorized Disclosure subject-|
to Criminal Sanctions: .

:

:

. ot
Be
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. Siz hee.

i

pets tae Asha ani sade

he paced Sie Bet

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a
of

COMMITTEE MEETING

Thursday, March 257 1976

i

f

foo
A:

i

hd / ‘United States. Senate, .

Select Committee to Study Governmental
.
hi

chips . Intelligence Activities,

Operations with Respect to

i a Washington, D.C.
hs
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, ‘at 2:43 0 "clock
dup
: t
p.m., in Room S~ 407, the Capitol, the Honorable Frank . church

iF
(Chairman) presiding, a

rch (presiding), Mondale, Huddleston,

Present: Senators Ch

Hart of Michigan, Morgan, art of Colorado, Tower, Mathias,

i
ia
' - 8

Baker and Schweiker.

Also present: Willian G. Miller, Staff Director; Frederick

Poy

i. :
- O. Sewharz, sri, Chie£, ounsel:; and Charles Kirbow,
lizabeth Culbreath, Michael Madican,: Charles ‘Lombard, William
ader, Ted ‘Rolson, Burt Wides, Walter Ricks, Rick Inderfurth,
ohn Bayly, David Aaron, Elliot Maxwell, Joseph Dennin,
argaret Carpenter, Martha Talley, Paul Wallach and Jim

ohnston, Professional Staff Members.

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sol

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1 PROCEEDINGS
. . 4 . .
ok . . .,
2: The Chairman. We will soon have a quorum. Why don't
3 | we begin with the Recommendation No. 43 on page 77, having
on 7

4 || to do with academics. =|

5 My understanding is that this recommendation has been

6 || redrafted along the Lines! of the Committee's recommendations, a da

wd

a:
al
“if

7 || as it now stands it calls; for the CIA academics and the

i
sy

8 institution to be informed, and: for any student being recruited

g || to be so informed.

“10 There is a choice in} the latter case in informing him

Hl

11 || before he is paid or informing him before he leaves the U.S.
12 Will you explain that to he, please?
13° Mr. Aaron. In ‘the course of our - discussion about the

14, recruitment of students off campuses, there were two cate-

15 || gories of concern. One was for the integrity of the institu--
oy ;

16 tions themselves, and the| second was, in turn, for the

17 || Students that might be inpotved.
“48 _ To take the second one first, the Committee received

19 _ testimony that some foreisn students recruited | as agents for
. oy

20 the CIA were. brought into) kind of a holding status at a certain |
21 point in which they were working for, if you will, CIA
22 proprietaries or CIA front organizations where they might

. boa, . : . a
23 || conduct some operational activity, provide some information,
a , ;

at - Le
o4 | under the impression that) they were not working for the CIA
: viet

H

a5 | but for a company or, I think as one put it, I think, a group

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pretenses. !

‘into this sort of -- =|;

TOP SECRET —sis

i
of investors, le
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|
Concern was expressed by the Committee in . considering
oa
this testimony that this)might be rather severe for the student
‘ .

once he discovered the fact he had been working for the CIA,
oad
or should his governnent||find that out, so that it was an
al . ; .
element of coercion to hilze somebody under, if you will, false

lt

(3
a
eal

nthen, in effect says that we may

That second proviso

ore

pitch and recruit a stuallne as an agent, but you must, when you
do that, when you reallyijbring him into an operational relation
A

. . na .
ship with the Agency, hejjsnourd be so informed and not brought

: hy
ie

Sa avn mee

oa nit
ce

The Chairman. Let's igo off the record.
(Discussion off the]/record.)
aoa)

The Chairman. The vestion that I have on this recommen-

dation is why shouldn't. the foreign student béing recruited

Ayes

by the CIA be informed ra}

his relationship with the CIA

at the time. that that relationship is established?
:
“why do you. condition ‘it upon payment or leaving the

country? . oh)
‘Senator Huddleston. well, I was going to say there are

many, many initial contatts that do not advance maybe much

further than that, and fox the CIA to have to be- exposed maybe

on each-of those might net be reasonable. What. we have tried

to do is to make the wittilngness be known about | the. time that

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1 | |
they are to perform some | ervice. Up to that. time they are

s
still maybe vrospects, ville they may not have been recruited,
édh|a0 you: ‘think the Committee should
adopt of these two crt

n

The Chairman. Wh

t
Mr. Aaron. “Actually, one could use both of these, I thin

the point is that the danger to the student, if there is any,
. i
comes when he. leaves the United States, either to return to
-his own country, or perhaps someplace else, but the commitment
;
or involvement which ought. to be witting really needs to come
ed . :
when he starts being paid, when he becomes in fact, or has
a real relationship with! the Agency. You could really establis

ah

both standards, because iit might well be that he could leave
the country but not havel et been paid, and not: really have
a relationship that woe yehing more than kind-of an asso-
Lola :

ciation or an option, something of that character,
The Chairman. wet!t|

as to these two optionsalt |

a

‘what is the will of the Committee

ie

Senator mudaieston. helt this represents a distillation

of what we have been proposing as Senator. Mondate develops
vp
for us, I believe, and i would move that we adopt this report,
* or .

‘and use both of these, an either/or.

_ oot _

The Chairman. Whichever comes first, huh, either before
- Ah a |
he is given payment of ll kind or leaves the United States,
. a ; iat ;
whichever may ceout s8cap}
: yt
uf

Would that be satisfactory to the Committee?

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decision of the Committee,

in opposition to this? < |

Ik:
. ot
“All right. wt

TOP SECRET | :

4
dbjection, then, that will be the
' _

What else do you have?

Mr. Aaron. We have two other recommendations.

Senator Hart of Colorado. Mr. Chairman, could I be recordad

The Chairman.

as in opposition.

well.

Mr. Madigan.

The Chairman.

opposition as well.

Senator Mathias.

re
in
an

. | : ‘
Yes, Senator Hart of Colorado is recorded

b
bog
moa
‘

an

Senator, there is a proxy in opposition as

i
Senator Baker wants to be recorded in

|

| a
Twould, I think Senator Goldwater had

Hs

oo i
a very strong proxy that)|f) read into the record on this subject

at the last meeting.

aH .
ie |
aus
et

Mr. Kirbow. Against) restricting any use of academics.

. Senator Mathias. T}}don' £ have a proxy with him today, but

I feel his position ought to be noted.

' The Chairman.

very | lwell, then, with those particular

reservations. imade part ‘of the record, the Committee will

ul.

"approve the amended Recommendation No. 43.

We move then to Recommendation 45 on page 78.

: ate ; ;
Mr. Aaron, We attenpted ‘to redraft this along the lines

- Wil;
as we were instructed, believe.

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As it came out,

Page 6&

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it ‘would. prohibit the subsidy of any

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publication,

' to.the CIA.

423521

‘Top SECRET —s_i«icc

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writing, publication, dis

or. its territories, of jah
- I.
It has” been pointed out t

the writing of a -book, ey
'

United States, to be ‘publ

4
i)

States, even if they were

Now, that may be tor
|

|
Committee intended, and 's

{

to accomplish. vil
A

As I understand iti,

it is possible that what,

any writing, publicatidn}:
ill

would have been the Pr

:

we can]

th
Wl

Why

that is correct,

Saas

Senator Morgan.

The Chairman.

that by statute the CIA|s

to

Hi

ate
here, to get a better unde

a

stribution within the United States

4 book, magazine, article and so forth.
i
t |

hat this formulation would prevent

en in a foreign ‘language, within the
7

ished abroad and ‘distributed abroad,

or any such materials from being published within the United
. why
an a .

| distributed abroad.
estrictive and go beyond what the
o therefore we wanted to raise this _

Srstanding of ‘what we were attempting

|i A

iin we were -~ it was not clear, but
che Committee had in mind was that

for distribution in the United States

p
i

riate formulation for this, and it

ke a very easy fix.

a
a

yj pwouldn’t it?

|
wouldn't it accomplish it if we say -

i

hould be prohibited from subsidizing

or distribution within the United

the writing or production}

cad

States or its territories

!

jbl

i

- an

Wouldn't that cake
in

If that

TO

film, or

Mr. Aaron.

Page 9.

video or audio

of’ any book, magazine, article,

tape unless attributed

care of it?

is what the that

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WARD & PAUL

Committee intends,


1 || would take care of it...

{
|
|
2 | _ Senator Mondale. Publicly attributed.
-
y
V

; \ "

~ . {:

° Mr. Aaron. “Public y

4 ; Senator Huddleston ° That is getting at what really we

5 || are trying to do. ne

6 The Chairman. How) aout the balance of 45, "nor should

OL aces

7 the CIA be permitted to | pdertake any activity to accomplish -

8 | indirectly such distributfon within the United States or its

adhe

9 territories. en
10 | Well, I think that f¢llows and should be a part of it. .
1 [> . a
it ' Very well. - |
12 . Senator Mathias. mci} Chairman, I wonder, while we are in

13 || this area, Lf you could refresh my recollection, whether -

14 || "grantees" in No. 44 appha
ra

ty 4
i Hp

es to both foreign and American

15 || grantees.

df
Te.
ft

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+ de
4
+
}

16 Mr. Bader. Yes, it] would ; Senator, under this language, —
17 because | the Fulbright arbdram or the -- such -government~ sponsor d |

re

18 programs to include, too}, |include foreigners. As I understood
: eel :

19 || ait from the discussion of /the Committee, ‘the intent here was

20 || to ensure that public funds that were publicly devoted to

1
| 2

2liia specific purpose were $0. spent and that. was the issue that

Lae

22 was involved here, was |thd! appropriated funds for educational

Ls
I

23 programs be kept to educat zional programs and not to be used
|

24 operationally. But an language here would certainly include

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25 || foreigners..

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‘Mr. Maxwell... Billl!

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would this prohibit the use of any

individual person who is sponsored by an educational or

cultural program, although not fully funded by the Federal

a M
Government? ”

Senator Tower, This | is a question I wanted ko ask.

Could one of our nétworks pick up a portion of a film -

a
!

broadcast abroad By the ‘CIA and run it as part of a documentary

to show what they are doing and that kind of thing?

“The Chairman. I tHink the way it has been modified that

is not a problem. This says "by statute the CIA should be

prohibited from subsidizing writings," or production. |

od _ - a
Senator Tower. That what I mean, you are not precluded

from showing it, but it should not be done under CIA auspices

or government auspices. in

'

4]

The Chairman. Andis should not. be written for the

We

. |
Senator Tower. vel

. purpose of being shown in this country. -

_Mr. Aaron. Nor under. the indirect clause, I think, nor

should the CIA. go to cas and say "weve . got this wonderful

1

4

“eiim." . yo

- The Chairman. Using

}
it back. That would be;a i
also. .

a
if.
i
i
i
H

network for the purpose of bringing

indirect way, and that would be wron

Senator Tower. TI understand, yes.

The Chairman, Well,

then, if everybody understands the

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WARD & PAUL

1 way we have recommended)

2 ‘the Committee approves i

3 | Let us go, then, to: the next subject, the structural

‘

4 changes, the role of the ber on page 61.

5 "Mr, Aaron. I'm sorry, Mr, Chairman. We have one other

t

; i ;
6 question, that would be: Recommendation 47. The Committee

pes
hla

7 || agreed to extend --

8 Mr. Kirbow. Excuse me, Mr. Aaron. Senator Mathias's

9 question was on recommendation 44,
10 The Chairman. Were you satisfied with the answer?
1 Senator Mathias. “well, the question that was left

L _—
12 floating was what about a student who. is in a program which is-
13 | primarily funded by some private institution, although there
-14 || may be some small element’ -- |
15 |. Mr. Maxwell. For instance, any major university that
16 sponsored an individual coming under 44, which receives
LW Federal Covernment funds; night be barred under a broad
18 || reading of 44, and it-might be helpful to make that intentc
19 clearer in 44, if that is a concern of the Committee.

bey

20 Mr. Aaron. I think. this goes to the grantee as opposed

21 | to the institution.

22] Now, if it is true’ =
23 | “the Chairman. re is tne grantee that is receiving
PA ‘funds. | :

. 25 Mr. Aaron. if you. have a grantee receiving funds from

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1 || more than one source, then he receives them frcem more than one
“source, but if he is a grantee of a Federal program --

ss) Mr. Maxwell. But the problem is receiving funds through
. too a

4 educational and/or cultural programs.

5 . For instance, if he were totally funded by the University
6 | of Maryland, : which received ‘financial support from the United

7 States Government, arguably he is covered by that. re is not

8 that he is receiving Federal grants. I think that is the

g intention.

ti

10} ss Mr. Aaron. It should; be U.S. Government educational --_
: oo ,
alld. Mr. Bader, Would that help?
. ~ nan
le The. Chairman. Through educational and/or cultural

135 || programs sponsored by the| United States Government. Wouldn't

14 || that take care of it? tt

i yo

15 _ Senator Huddleston} | Well, grantees who are receiving

16 directly from the united Leates Government or through education 1

ity
17 | or cultural programs supported by the United States Government.

18 _ The ‘Chairman. Sponsored by.
19 Senator: Huddleston. Well, in other words, whether he is

/ 20 getting them directly himseL£ asa grantee, or whether he is
el receiving them from an ‘educational program that is itself

22 supported by. the ‘Federal Government.

23 | - Senator Mathias. z|Gon' t want to prolong this, but what
24 about a program which ig|really directed right at. this area

25 which has been referred to, the armed services military

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mc >P ‘SECRET | re
hoy
an
educational operate? |
Mr. Bader. I'm sorry, sir?
Mr. Aaron. Well, let me see if I understand the different

examples. The student leader grant or the political leader

grant that the State Department has where they bring foreigners

fi
Hi i

to the United States for a: period of time, presumably to ©
acquaint them with the country and what have you, under this
Language those people while on the grant would be immune from

being recruited by the CIA. This doesn't mean that they

‘couldn't recruit them at some other point in their careers, but

that during. the period of ‘that grant they would not be in

| effect brought. here and! ised for that purpose. That is, I

|
think, part of the intent, of this. particular provision.

Senator Mathias. Let me give you ‘another example. Say .
ood de . ;
you have an Iranian naval officer who comes over here to
ad
: : ; | |.
Fort McNair. . a

‘Is he fair game?

“Mr. Miller. That is not educational or cultural. It

would be military.

Senator Huddleston. I believe if he were going through
the war College --

senator Tower. rf he were going through the National
War College, how do you classify that?

Senator Mathias. up cowie come .to the industrial base -

or civilian --

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|

1 Mr. Kirbow. He could go to the Industrial College or the
ee

1 H
i

2 | War College.

3 Senator Schweiker. Can you exclude military training?
4 Senator Mathias. TI don't know. TI don't know what you
5 want.

6 i Senator Huddleston. We are training a lot of them or

9 we entertain a lot of them.
8 Senator Schweiker, It seems to me you have to put some

‘9 proviso about military training in there.

10 | “The Chairman. Well, it depends upon what the policy shoul
11 || be. I had thought the attempt here was to immunize any foreigner —
12 || who comes here on a program sponsored by the Government of the
13 United States and receives a grant for that program, to

14 || immunize him during that period from being recruited by the

15 || CIA. — cap . | 7 .

16 ' Senator Schweiker.’ |Well, if he is here for military -

17 || Purposes, then we know it is a military relationship, I would

18 think that is suspect. , og
19 : The Chairman. Would you want him subject to recruitment?
20 . Senator Schweiker. Well, if he comes over here militarily;

21 you are so close to him, what is the difference?
i

22 Mr. Aaron. Well, I:think the point of the prohibition

|
2% really is this, that these programs are created for one

| , -
04 || Particular purpose. They are considered by the Congress for

25 that particular purpose and the funds are voted for that

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- : . . WARD & PAUL ’
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1 particular purpose. If: the programs are then used for another
2 purpose by the Government, that was considered and suggested
3 || that that second purpose’ should not be used.
4 Now, if you want to) exempt certain categories here and
‘5 || Say, well, the military is a different thing, you can ao that.
6 | You can find a way to express that. |
7 The Chairman. Well, it could be done. If you want to
8 recruit foreign military officers, we can bring them over
9 to put them through the War College.
10 Mr. Miller. What other training?
11 Senator Huddleston., Well, we have a steady Stream at
12 | Fort Knox, Kentucky of military people. I don't know what kind
13 | of training. Most of them are, of course, are from. friendly
14 {| nations to start with.
15 “I don't know, you: know, military. once a person puts on
16 || @ uniform, he becomes fair game in a number of ways. He gives
17 up a lot of protections that civilians have. |
18 Senator Schweiker. ' You allow him to recruit--- under
19 | other policies here we allow them to. recruit foreign military
F ; -
20 officers because I think] that's an even more valid relationship
21 than the students, but: I. make it clear that what we don't |
229 || want. to do, which is to abort our honest to goodness cultural’
23 || exchange and other programs. | | |
24 7 rhe Chairman. This’ could be done ‘by saying "By statute
25 ‘the CIA should be prohibited from using operationally grantees
i. =
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programs is much clearer. .

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Senator Schweiker.; |Can we talk about Defense and military

training programs at the} same time? It seems to me that's

i‘alguy over here and educating him on

the criteria, bringing
defense and military mist be to the advantage of our military,
so you know what the relationship is to begin with. You are
not unwittingly using thé guy. You are pretty witting.
If the guy goes tdj the american War College, he is pretty

fair game. : ; |

. The Chairman. You Gan write an exception for the American
War College and all of the military and civilian personnel .
receiving training undér| the auspices of the United States :

armed services who are fair game.
|
{

(General laughter.)/.

Senator Huddleston. Except I.agree with Dave, that is

a little awkward to zero in on this particular group. Couldn't

we fina some. way -- |

Mr. Kirbow. Mr. chairman, I think it is not, intended
this. apply only to foreign students coming this way; you
include all american students going in the other direction, :
or under any other grant. |

Mr. Aaron. The intention of the provision initially, as.
a matter of fact, its primary effect was for American students -
traveling abroad.

| Senator Tower. Well, I see no problem with that. I know

‘I.don't have the votes here, but --. ‘

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r iw wGCKE I 16
1 The Chairman, Which part do you have? . -
2 7 Senator Tower. Well, not being able to use American
5 students abroad on some grant.to gather intelligence, when

i. ;
4 most of the people the damned Soviets send over here on these

5 cultural exchanges are really clued into the government

6 program, indoctrinated.and briefed thoroughly before they get
. if .

|

7 | here. I am not going to/tie our hands like that. The rest

8 of you can, but I'm not: |going to.

9 _ I will write a vigorous dissent on that.
10 |. Senator Morgan. May I make a comment on that?
Ll I'm inclined to agree, and I'm also inclined to agree

12 | that we are going so far jin our foreign intelligence that

13 || we are endangering the whole report, so you make that kind of
14 || an argument on the loot of the Senate on this and on two or
15 three « other things. oh fot pitking at any of them. I am

16 just sort of accepting the recommendations of the Subcommittee,

1? ‘but my reaction has been that maybe we are getting a little

'
ii

18 | bit. so far afield that ‘we may’ endanger the acceptance of our
~ 19 whole report.
20 _" The Chairman. . Senator Huddleston?

ei i ' Senator Huddleston. I would just say this, that the

ie
t

22 “Subcommittee has been cognizant of that situation.. I think it

i .
2%, || because of that that soe of these recommendations are already

‘

!

24 softer than some of us. Fong would be appropriate, and this

25 || is one of the fields. There was a considerable amount of Suppo t

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‘is doing what it was set out to do and what the publicly...

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of the idea: that dcademics be off limits, period, and students
in order to protect the integrity of our entire academic
community, and it is the realization that if we continued to
close the possibilities! for recruitment, and the’ adverse
effect that that would ‘have, maybe, on our ability to gather

intelligence, that some) /o'f us backed off of this, what would ;

|
be the optimum, we think,! position to take. So this already
represents somewhat of a retreat from the principle that some

would like to see established, and in this Gase I think we

Vis ; a,
are again faced with the /question of whether or not we want

a government-sponsored program to enjoy a high level of integrity

ot
1

so that the people who are participating in it and the American
taxpayer who is supporting it can have some confidence that it
announced purposes of it are. .
And if we don't do jthat, if we permit it to be used as

an operational intelligence operation, then it seems to me like

we ought to’ announce that, that that ought to be one of the
purposes so stated in the grant to start with, while we are
Likely to. get an education, “it is also likely if we can we:
will have you gather intelligence for us.

Senator Morgan. Well, Dee, I think you are getting off
base for us. There is nothing that: says they are ‘required to
do it.

{
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' Senator Huddleston., That is correct.

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Senator Morgan. In other ‘words, we are not: going to
condition this grant on --

Senator Huddleston. Well --

Senator Morgan. Let me finish out, now. What you are
leading up to is you are saying we are going to condition this
grant on your cooperation with other governmental. agencies.

Senator Huddleston. I. -am saying that is not beyond the
realm of possibility in some cases, if we don't put some
prohibition.

Senator Morgan. Well, I think there may be times,
especially in the light of what we heard in the past year,

when, you know, we might make that assumption, but I don't

think that on the whole when you are.dealing with the United

States Government that you can really assume ~-

Senator Hudddleston. But you can't assume he is not,

either.

The Chairman. But what worries me is you get a student
who in good faith goes abroad for the purpose of study and
qualifies for a Government grant, and he depends upon that
money and then he, when he gets over there. and wants to complet
his studies, he is approached, and he can be approached in

such a way that he can be made to feel that if he does not.

throw in with the CIA and do this and that, he may. find that

the grant will be cut off or he can't complete.the study as he

intended. He feels a certain dependency upon the money that

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I assume part of that came from agitation at the time in '67

and Senator Fulbright's own determination that that program not

be used. for operational purposes.

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he is receiving, and he has an expectation he wants to fulfill.
And thus he is in a very vulnerable position when he is
approached. - | .

Senator Morgan. -Well, that is a persuasive argument, but
let me ask you, have we had any evidence that that sort of
thing has happened? _

The Chairman. Well, I don't know.

Senator Morgan. Well, it is a very persuasive argument,
but I just wonder if we should, in the absence of abuse on
that part, whether or not we should go this far.

The Chairman. What. about it, Mr. Bader?

Mr. nader. Mr. Chairman, I might say in partial response
to Senator Tower's remarks that the Agency's basic instruction
for the operational use of individuals, 50-10, specifically.
prohibits the operational use of Fulbright grantees, ‘They have

already made that decision in 1967, and reconfirmed in 1973.

Tt was the original intent of this Language to extend
that prohibition, which is now a matter of “public record, this ..--
actually, that part ‘of the instruction is in the public record
now under the Freedom of Information Act, that part of 50-10
that talks about Fulbright grantees. rt was the original |

intent of the recommendation that is now before you to extend

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that prohibition on Fulbright grantees to all of those under
the Fulbright-Hayes legislation. Under the specifics of the
Agency's interpretation, it makes a distinction between those
students, or graduate students, or professors selected by the
Board of Foreign Scholarships, and the rest -- and the rest
includes cultural leader grants and the like.

Now, perhaps it might be the sensible thing in the

language like this to confine it to the Fulbright~Hayes Act,

‘which is the basic legislation which deals with this.

Senator Schweiker. How many others would you have outside
of that? Would you have a lot of other programs?.

ir. Bader. Other programs?

Senator Schweiker. What percent of the total picture is

Math age

the Fulbright-Hayes Act?

‘Mr. Bader. I really wouldn't know, Senator. I think it
is. the major part. of it, actually. You could have a National
Endowment for the tfumanities fellowship in waieh a person would
go overseas, and this, under the language we now have before |
you, that would include’ those individuals.

The Chairman. Well, I can see how vulnerable a grantee

might be when approached, and if we have already written

into law a prohibition ‘that relates to the Fulbright scholars,
I-should think it ought to apply to any others that are _
receiving educational or cultural grants from the United
States. _

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Senator Tower. That is not a Law, that is a regulation.
Mr. Aaron. And cIa's own regulation. —
. The Chairman. But then it was adopted as part of the law,
r thought you said. | :
Mr. Bader. No, sir. I said it. has been made public

through the Freedom of Information Act. This is an internal

‘directive of the Agency, and as the Senators know, those.

directives are certainly subject to change, so there really

are, in effect, two basic parts of this recommendation. One

was to commit the present internal prohibitions of the CIA to
law, and then to extend it, and . the issue before the Committee,
in ‘addition to whether there should be an extension, is sort
of how far and what language shoulda be used to portray or.
convey that prohibition? |

Senator Baker. Mr! Chairman, do we have anything from _

the Agency on this?

' Senator Huddleston. . think you've got to weigh, to some

‘extent, the value of the two programs, of our cultural exchange

programs' importance. I think the mblic knowledge of any one
individual becomes known as a. “SPY. who is associated with a
program, it has a | devastating ‘effect, in my judgment, on the
program and on all students who are participating in it. I.

just think the risk is too great.

Senator Tower. Well, my question at that point would be

4

to “what extent ‘does our cultural exchange program impact | on

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L people behind the Iron Curtain, to convince them as people that
2. | -we are nice folks, that they ought to influence their governmen
3 || to be a little bit more’ friendly toward us? tt doesn't have

4 any impact, at ‘all ina totalitarian state, none.

5 It is really a one way street.

6 ||  ~Now, I am all for cultural exchange, simply because I

” like to watch Russian ballet dancers, especially females, but

8 the fact of the matter is cultural change does more to soften

g | up the American public toward the Iron Curtain than the

10 other way around.

ll The Chairman. That is an argument as to the merits of

12 cultural exchange, and now you view ballerinas, but, the questio
13 | here we face is whether or not we should put American students

in a position where they feel «hey must -=

14

s Senator Tower. T don't think they must he coerced.

16 The Chairman. But there is an element of intimidation

17 “involved if they are receiving a grant from the government.

18 Senator Tower. Well, I would favor a specific prohibitio
19 against making that a condition of getting a grant or scholarship
“50 of some sort. |

21 Senator Baker. Or continuing one. |
| - Senator Tower. Or continuing one.

23 Senator Hart of Michigan, Well, John, what do you say

to Dee's point? If my roommate turns out to be a spy, it is

24
85 automatically assumed I am, and every guy in the outfit. What

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does this do to the American that is over there, all of
them? I don't think that is right.

Senator Tower, well, I think in many instances American
operations abroad that have been completely innocent have been
labeled as spy operations for propaganda purposes by the other
side, and they will do that if they choose to. They will-not

do it if they choose not to do it.

The Chairman. But you have many of these students. who are
not inside Russia or in a Communist country. We have education 1
and cultural programs in Third world countries and in the
western world.

Senator rower. I understand that...

The Chairman. And there, if someone is caught engaging in
a CIA action of some kind, then everybody is contaminated,
The whole thing then becomes suspect in France or England foha
wherever it might be.

Senator Tower. what if the grantee comes to CIA and.
says, I have made some contacts over here that I think would
be of value in terms of ‘passing intelligence along to you?

Are you going to turn him down and Say, no, you are ona -
Fulbright grant, we can't let you do that?

| Senator Huddleston. No, they could use his information to

contact somebody else. He would not necessarily be operational

Mr. Bader. | Operational use, under the Agency's definition,

has two. major elements to it. First is that the purposes to

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1 be accomplished, and objectives, are established by the Agency,

2 and the second is that the individual involved is tasked to

3 || do that, ordered to do it, if you please.

4 . ‘Operational use does. not, by the agency's definition,

5 involve individuals who would come to the Central Intelligence

6 Agency to voluntarily give whatever information that they

” think would be of value ‘to the Agency, the kind of information

8 that the Contacts Division normally would like to have.

9 Senator Tower. Yes,’ but once having done that, the Agency
10 || determines this person is valuable and they observe this ..

LL |} person and they put him under a control officer.

12 Mr. Bader. ‘Then he would come under this condition. That

13 || would be operational usel:

14 Senator Huddleston. 'It would not include a debriefing of

15 | him when he came back. . | .
16 Mr. Kirbow. Nor could he be asked to go to a single meeting
17 || more and report back on, the very same subject that he just

“48 reported on, which might be a critical target to the United”

19 || States Governments' national security.

20 ; Mr. Bader. Once he is operational, he has to accomplish a-

21 particular task or purpose, then he is operationally used under

ee |) the terms,

23 ; Senator Tower. Even if he initiates the contact with
7 - :

24 the Agency in the first place.

25 _ Mr. Bader. Only, Senator, if there is a second stage in

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- ' j | this, if the individual --

2 - senator Tower. I know. The second. stage may be the most
3. important.

4 Mr, Bader. It certainly may, and at that stage, under the
5 Agency's definition, he would be operationally --

6 Senator Huddleston. I can't believe the Agency wouldn't

” have another entre of some sort.
8 Senator Tower. What kind of widespread abuse are we

9 trying to prevent?

10 Has there been widespread abuse?»

li Mr. Bader. No, sir,, there has not.

12 . Senator Tower. There has not been.

13 -Mr. Aaron. This occurs.

14 : Mr. Bader. This occurs , yes.

15 Senator Hart of Michigan. What is the benefit -~ there

16.1] has been no abuse, but what benefit?
W Senator Mondale. ‘Tt's not -~ that's not the word. It's

18 not no abuse. It's not widespread.

i

19 “Mr. Bader. - The term is "not widespread."

20 Senator Tower. I baia "widespread."

21 Mr. Bader. Yes, 1] said "widespread."

20° senator Hart of Michigan. The question is, what

; é
93 || benefits? Do we know? ‘

24 | ' Senator Huddleston. “That is very difficult to ascertain.

25 Senator Tower. Significant abuse? Any record of abuse?

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26
1 . What record of abuse do we have?
2 - Senator Hart of Michigan. Any record:of significant
5 || benefit.
4a . Mr. Bader. A record | of significant abuse in the sense

5 ‘that Fulbright students or. those under American educational
6 programs have been used’ ‘operationally. ‘There is an extensive
7 record over the years, but it is not of major importance to ,

8 || the Agency.

9 -.’ The Chairman. Well,|'apparently. the. Agency itself has

10 || restricted or has put the} Fulbright scholars off limits,

il right?

12 | Mr. Bader. That ‘is correct, sir.

13 _ The Chairman. Well, then, --

14 |: ‘Senator Hart of Michigan. That must be the result of a

15 conclusion that either they were not beneficial or they didn't

16 |} want to poison the program.
7

17 Why doesn't that reasoning apply to these others?
- ' oo .

18] The Chairman. Well, I. think it does, but we might as
19 | well come to a vote on it and decide whether we want to keep
20 it or strike it.

al . Senator nudadeston. Well, to being it to a vote, Mr.

22 Chairman, I would move that Paragraph 44 -- .
23 _ Senator Baker. ue. |Chairman, I would just kind of make
24 “one inquiry, I believe, and I already know the answer to it,

25 that even though we are voting on this section, I believe the

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arrangement we had previously, that is to say, that none of

this is final, and certainly not until we hear the comments

of the Agency. -
Is that still observed?

The Chairman. Yes, that is still. the situation. Nothing

becomes. final until thé final vote is taken, and anything can

Senator Baker. Then we are going to have comments from the
Agency. When, Bill, tomorrow?

Mr. Miller. Staff is going to get them. tomorrow afternoon

out there, and they are going to give it to us in'writing, I

think, tomorrow afternoon:

. { : 4 7 .
The Chairman. I ‘suspect that the Agency will oppose

many of these recommendations.
. rn

Senator Huddleston. No question about that.

I

' The Chairman. I hope that won't be the single basis
upon which we decide for co against.

Senator duddleston, ‘My: motion includes, Mr. Chairman, ©

that we exempt the military. |

"Senator Schweiker. You say it will include --

Senator Huddleston. That will be in my motion, in 44, that

we exclude foreign military people.

The Chairman. All. rilght.

The motion is made that Recommendation No. 44 be approved

with the exception that, it does. not apply to foreign military

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personnel coming into this country, is that right?
Senator Huddleston. Yes.
The Chairman. Let's have a vote.
Do you want to call the roll, Mr. Miller?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr. Hart of Michigan.
Senator Hart of Michigan. Aye.
Mr. Miller. Mr. Mondale.

Senator Mondale. Aye.

Mr. Miller. ur. Huddleston.
Senator Huddleston. Aye.
Mr. Miller. Mr. Morgan.

; Senator Morgan. No.

Mr. Miller. Mr. Hart of Colorado?
Senator Hart of Colorado. Aye. , .
Mr. Miller, Mr. Baker.
Senator Baker. No.

Mr. Miller. Mr. Mathias?

-Senator Tower. You missed Goldwater. “You missed

Goldwater.

- Goldwater no by written proxy.

Mr, Miller. Mr. Mathias’ is in the phone booth.
Mr. Schweiker.
Senator Schweiker. Aye.

Mr. Miller. Mr. Tower?

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28

senator

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1 Senator Tower. No.

2 Mr. Miller. Mr. Church?
5 - The Chairman. Aye.
4 Senator Tower. I don't think it is going to affect the

5 || outcome, so I ask consent that he be recorded.

6 - Mr. Miller. The ayes have it, It is six to four. Mr.
a Mathias is still in the phone booth.

8 Senator Tower. I ask consent that he be allowed to be

9 | recorded. It might change the outcome.

10 _ The Chairman. All right.

ll Let's go to 61 next.

12 “Mr. Aaron. The next issue is on page 78A, Recommendation...
13 47.

14 ‘The Committee previously agreed to extend the CIA

15 || prohibitions on the use of media to the use of any person
16 || who regularly contributes material to publications and those

197 || involved directly or indirectly in the editing or setting

18 || policy and direction in the direction. of the activities of

19 || U.S. media organizations.

20 |. What was unclear was. whether this was the recommendation
21 | of the Committee to the CIA that it amend its regulations to do
eo || that, or whether this was to be embodied in statute as had

23 | been recommended in Recommendation 46.

€ 2 BAL | The. Chairman. I'm sorry, I have lost you.

segin 3 ;
‘BS “Mr. Aaron. You will find the words “proposed statutory

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1 || CIA prohibition" and you see the words "proposed" and
2 "statutory" are in brackets, reflecting uncertainty on our part

3 || as to whether it was the intention of the Committee that this

4 prohibition simply be a CIA regulation or embodied in the
5 statute, which is recommended in the recommendation of procedur s.
6 the Chairman. Senator Huddleston, do you have any comment
Df on this?

8 _ Senator Huddleston. “I havea personal feeling that when

9 we go too far statutorily in dealing with the press, that we.

“10 sometimes get on thin ice. I don't know whether it: would be
‘1] || appropriate to make some suggestion here that the press itself

12 || initiate certain standards and methods. Many of them in the

13 || press believe they ought to have anyhow.

14 I think the recommendation for the CIA is probably

15 || sufficient. . i ;

- 16 The Chairman. And let that be handled as a matter of

i .

7 CIA regulations.

18 Senator Huddleston. Rather than by statute.

19 |. fhe Chairman. Rather than by statute.
20 Is that. acceptable to the Committee?
2] Senator Tower. Iam sorry, Mr. Chairman. Would you

go || repeat the proposition? |
93 The Chairman. The proposition is’ that the Committee
984 recommend that the CIA, | by regulation, handle this matter
. . I .

25 || rather. than make it statutory.

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Senator Tower. Well, I oppose it either by statute or
by regulation, so I would suggest that those who favor the
‘concept determine whether they want to do it by either statute
or regulation. I am opposed to doing it by either. | |

‘Senator Schweiker. I would like to see it by statute if
we are going to do it.

Senator Baker. Mr. Chairman, does this make any distincti
between domestic media and -- on the media located physically
within the United States and the U.S. media outside the
United States? _

The Chairman. No, it does not. It simply attempts to
prevent the CIA from involving itself with personnel who are
part of the U.S. media, whether here or abroad, ‘as : read it.

Senator Tower. Okay, now, let me ask you a question.

What is there is a Reuters reporter in. Moscow who is
cooperating with us, and Reuters contributes regularly ‘to U.S.
media?

Senator Schweiker. “We spent an hour on that. They are
excluded. We argued that for an hour.and I lost the point, so
they would be excluded.

Senator Huddleston. This basically just extends to

‘CIA's own prohibition that they had initiated against what we-

would normally think of as working journalists, and includes
into it the executives and editors and those who may be

freelancing.

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“1 "Senator Tower. What it we got a freelancer for Time
' 2-|| Magazine who is indeed a foreign national? Does he come under
3 this prohibition? . |

4 . Senator Huddleston. “If he has some reqular association wi
.§ || Time he would be. |

6 Mr. Aaron. Under the Agency's current regulations and

, own prohibitions, a foreign journalist working for Timé Magazin
8 || oversees would be prohibited from being used by them for

9 operational purposes. That is their own position today. This

10 would extend that prohibition to someone who is, what in the
11 || trade jargon is a stringer, or --

12 Senator Tower, This would inciude a stringer?

13 Senator Schweiker. It wouldn't cover Reuters or some
14 other foreign news service. | ;
as Mr. Aaron. It would also apply to a foreigner who was,
16 for example, if there were such a thing as an editor in the
1? Paris Bureau of Time Magazine. I don't think they work that

. —_ oo :
18 | Way, but say there were such a person, it would apply to him

19 as well,

20 || ' Senator Tower. What about the Paris Trib? What about
2° .
21 that?
: | .

22 Mr. Aaron. A U.S. media organization,

. ue ' . :
23 Mr. Kirbow. It is excluded.
24 Senator Schweiker. _That is a subsidiary of an American

95 company. ; 7 7 |
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‘Senator Tower. What about Reader's Digest Selecciones,
which is their Spanish publication? Is-that included?

Mr. Aaron. iI assume so.

The Chairman. Well, according to the CIA's own restric-
tions, it is excluded now, except this would simply
extend the exclusion to’ stringers, those who do not have
regular employment. |

Senator Huddleston. “And editors and executives.

The Chairman. And editors and executives.

Mr. Bader. The present restriction, Senator Tower,
that has been extended by the Agency in February, went to
accredited journalists, accredited to U.S. media organizations.
The only difference between this prohibition and the one
already assumed by the Agency is that this moves further
accreditation to include those who regularly contribute to
U.S. media organizations or are a part of their structure.

Mr. Kirbow. The management structure.

Mr. Bader. - The management structure, whether they:

contribute material to or are involved directly or indirectly

“in the preparation of material.

The Chairman. Well, I think if we are going to do it,
we had better decide on the policy. If we want to keep the
CIA out of U.S. media both at home and abroad, and we want
to extend that to stringers as well, then I think it ought .

to.be done by statute rather than just: a recommendation by

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the Committee that the CIA do it, because the CIA regulations ©
may or may not issue, and they can be changed at any time
without notice.

Senator Tower. Well, Mr. Chairman, aren't we talking abou
two different things? .

t don't mean foreign, you know, our foreign correspondents
abroad writing CIA propaganda for American publications. We
are talking about operations here, operational use, not use
to write some article that the CIA wants planted in an American
publication. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking
about using him to gather intelligence, and it goes back
directly to the CIA which doesn't serve as a publication.

The Chairman. But operational use can include many things
including writing propaganda and usually would if it involved
journalists. 7 a |

Senator Tower. well, I think we have already got a

prohibition on that.

Mr. Bader. The prohibition that the Central Intelligence

Agency has self-imposed extends across the line from cover

to. placement to all operational use of individuals, accredited

individuals to American media organizations. As I say, the

difference between what the Agency has already taken upon

itself and what this recommendation involves is this recommen-

dation extends it to individuals who are not accredited.

There are a number -- the figures that the Committee has

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‘to just one third of those individuals.

at the Recommendation 46 that goes before 47, perhaps it might

established in law, if in’ 47, if the Committee should so

‘| decide to do it by recommendation, that they change their

and 47.

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35

which have been authenticated by the Agency, ‘that there are

some 60 Americans who are affiliated or are part of American

media organizations around the world, part of a larger network
of some 400 journalists and the like who are part of the Agency ‘is
overall media asset program, and of those 60 under the Agency's

present prohibitions, the ones recently imposed, it would go

This prohibition would extend it from the one third to.
all because the other ‘two: thirds include people. that are
under cover, who are in management, and who are not under
the technical term accredited to U.S. media organizations.

Mr. Chairman, I might say if the Committee would look -

bear in mind that the recommendation in 46, which takes the

present Agency prohibitions and says that they should be

internal prohibitions, there will be a contrast between 46

The Chairman. Well, let's have a'vote. Let's go back
to 46, and I take it that the recommendation is that this

prohibition that the CIA has imposed upon itself ought to

be written in statutory form.
7 . Jd

Mr. Bader, ‘That is jthe recommendation.

The Chairman. All right. net's have a vote on that

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1 first of all, and then we'll take up 47.

2 Mr. Miller, will you call the roll?

3 Senator Huddleston. Me. Chairman, I think I am probably
4 || the only one that has suggested that it should not be statutory
5 |. and I would just point out that that might be a result of the —

6 fact that I am in the media, so I would withdraw that unless

i
i

7 somebody else wants to make that recommendation.

8 The Chairman. I thought yours went to 47.0

9 This is 46. . |

10 Senator Huddleston. | It did, but they both relate to the
111 media. ‘ |

12 The Chairman. wel, let's take a vote on 46, which

13 would recommend that Congress enact a statute conforming to

14 the CIA's self-imposed prohibition on U.S. journalists or

15 foreign journalists accredited to the U.S. media abroad. .
16 a Mr. Miller. Mr. Hart of Michigan.
. 9 Senator Hart of Michigan. Did you want a roll call?
18 | The Chairman. yes! |

19 ; Senator Hart of Michigan. Aye.

20 Mr. Miller. Mr. Mondale.

Phe | Senator Mondale. aye.

22 Mr. Miller. Mr. Huddleston?

24 Senator Huddleston, aye. . - So '
924 . me. Miller. Mr. Mozgan. |

25 . - Senator Morgan. aye.

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| 27
1 Mr. Miller. We. Hart of Colorado.
i ;

2. Senator Hart of Colorado. Aye.

3 | Mr. Miller. Mr. Baker.

4, Senator Baker. Aye.)

5 ' Mr. Miller. Mr. Goldwater.

6 ; “Senator Tower. “No by| proxy.

vi Mr. Miller. Mr. Mathias.

8 - (No response.) '

9 | Mr. Miller. Mr. schieiker.

10 _ Senator Schweiker. Aye.

ll ; Mr. Miller. Mr. Tower.

12 Senator Tower. - No.

13 Mr. Miller. Me. Church. .

14} . ‘The Chairman. Aye. 7 . _ 7
7 Senator Tower. Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent
16 that Senator Mathias be rdcorded. Tt will not be changed.
Hf co

17 The Chairman. all right. | .

18. - Now can we go to 47 and vote it up or down, on the
“19 understanding that this rékonmendation having. to do with

290 || Stringers and the use of é@xecutives would not take statutory
. . H t

21 || form but it would be a recommendation to the CIA without

22 || such regulation.

23 tt Ms, Culbreath. Chairman, could I say just a word, please

=
ne = ee
i=)

Bg. sir, with regard to whether it was done by: directive or regu-

25 || lation or by statute. ‘Yesterday one of the general recommendation:

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that we discussed and the||staff was asked to rewrite went to
3 the question of any changes or waivers of Agency directives

. jor recommendations, and as considered by the Committee

3
4 yesterday. The agreement! was -- and if that proposal is
5 one of the general recommendations goes “through any waiver
6 of an existing regulatidn lor any amendment of an existing
9 regulation, that affected the significant policies or programs
. of the Agency, would have! to go immediately to NSC and to the
9 oversight committee so thse they would know.
10 So what I am saying [is that if you had a directive: and
ll there was a change in song thing like this which would be
12 significant, there would jhave to be notice to’ the oversight
13 | committee and to the NSC.
v7 The Chairman. Can ve have a vote, then, on 47 before.
15 we go down to the Senate to this roll call.
16 , Mr. Miller. Mr. Hart of Michigan.
“ay Senator Hart of Michigan. Aye.
12 Mr. Miller. Mr. Hodteie.
aol Senator Mondale. nye.
20 Mr. Miller. Mr. Huddleston.
-_ Senator Huddleston. aye.
b0 Me, Miller. Mr. Morgan.
; ; i
23 . Senator Morgan. her |
- 24 | Mr. Miller. Ne. Hart of Colorado.
os Senator Hart of Colorado: Aye.
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1 Mr. Miller. Mr. Baker.
2 Senator Baker. ayelll
3 . ’ Mr, Miller. Mr. Goldwater.
A Senator Tower. No by proxy.
5 Mr. Miller. Mr. Mathias.
6 ; (No response.) |
7 . Mr, Miller,’ Mr. Sctiweiker.
8 Senator Schweiker, jAye.
9 “Mr. Miller. Mr. rover.
10 Senator Tower, No.
il “Mr.Miller. Mr. church. :
12 _ ‘The Chairman. aye. |
aoe Senator Tower. Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent:
14 |) that Senator Mathias be allowed to vote.
- “The Chairman. That) will be so ordered.
16 |. ALL right, let's take a short recess and come back.
17 , (Whereupon, at 4:05.0' clock p.m. the Committee
18 || recessed to ceconvene at'!10:00 o'clock a.m., Friday, March -
19 | 26,1976.) : 7 |

£0 | ; . , | a ' oe
21 || - SO oy

22

23 - -
24 |
25

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