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06/25/75
61

PAGES 8-68 OF TESTIMONY BY SARNO, ALFRED J.

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wseeeema coms ewamaana me

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TRANSCRIPT
T

REFERRED
ae
10/05/93

[R] - ITEM IS RE

t

eT TET TSE

to Criminal Sanctions
Ro54
Bill) _

Ll iE
rd

SECU pe

_ Che United States Senate

Report of Proceedings 38-4 f

CIA HAS NO OBJECTION TO
DECLASSIFICATION AND/OR
RELEASE a HIS DOCUMENT —_
iT . aon
AS SAN “i Peiday, Jun@ 25, 1975
a [ ) - Washington, D.G

COR _
: (Stenotype Tape and Waste turned over
ogee =O the Committee for destruction)

410 FIRST STREET, 3. E.
WASHINGTON, D. C. 20008

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WARD &« PAUL _ | :


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2 TESTIMONY OF

“ Alfred J. Sarno

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CONTENTS

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& 2 1 for /AMUTS?
°
3 2 Mr. Sarno. I think from December, 1961 or January, 1962
: xs) to September, 1967. Then from June -- August, 1968 to

4 September, 1969.

5 Mr. Wides. Now let ma go back, and can you give us a

6 very brief summary of your positions with the Agency prior to
7 that? I don't mean detailed -as to what you were doing.

8 Mr. Sarno. I joined the Agency in September of 1951.

9 Mr. Wides. Yes?

10 Mr. Sarno. I was assigned to three countries before I

11 hit Florida.

4
2
®@ s. 12 Mr. Wides. All in the Western Hemisphere Division?
8
is]
z 13 Mr. Sarno. All in the Western Hemisphere.
3 .
14 Mr. Wides. So you had rather long stations in each of

15 those, three or four years?

16 Mr. Sarno. (Nods in the affirmative)

17 Mr. DeMarco. When did you become an American citizen?
18 Mr. Sarno. I was born in Ohio.

19 Mr. DeMarco. Had you been stationed with Mr. Phillips

20.) in Cuba before you came to Miami, or were you in Cuba before

Pal you came to Miami?

410 First Street, 5.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003

po Mr. Sarno. Yes.
23 Mr. Wides. And that is when MESeNoeh was the Chief?
a Pa Mr. Sarno. was the Chief.

25 Mr. Wides. And you had contact with Mr. Phillips then?

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Mr. Wides. You never heard of any plots, nor of any
arrested people attempting to shoot a bazooka when he was
giving a speech at Havana Stadium?
Mr. Sarno. No, sir.
Mr. Wides. Let me go to the period when you went to
Florida.

When you first came here, that was before Station Chief

Meal,

shad moved the whole station to Miami?

Mr+ Sarno. olgwasn't there. When I arrived in Florida,
foo was not then -- no, sir, he was not the station chief.

Mr. Wides. Who was the station chief?

Mr. Sarno. I don't think I should give you his name.
I don't know. YOu have the rest of all of them, but I can't
recall --

I can state that there were two station chiefs between!

Mand Shackley, three of them, in fact.

Mr. Wides. Shackley came in when, 1963?

Mr. Sarno. '62.

Mr. Wides. When in ‘62?

Mr. Sarno. I think the spring of '62 is when it was.

Mr. Wides. When was he replaced by Mr. Dimmer?

Mr. Sarno. If I am not mistaken, it was in ‘64, I think.
June, July, I think, something like that, of '64.

Mr, Wides. And then Mr. Dimmer was replaced in '66 by

Mr . Bea

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Mr. Sarno. Fecusicis |

Mr. Wides. And then Mr. Esterline replaced Mr. Gites

or was there someone batween?

Mr. Sarno. Mr. Esterline did not replace Mr.

Nobody replaced GEeSp because they closed up the station.

Mr. Widas. We understand that the station was operating
very recently.
“Mr. Sarno. Well, I'm not saying -- you see, the station

you spoke to befors, you spoke of, went out of business in

June of 1960 when Mr. (hues

Mr. Wides. I see.

Now, what was the relationship between yourself and the
station? Administratively, and in terms of reporting, when
you first went down there. .

Mr. Sarno. When I first went down there, I was outside.
I beliave it was concerning clearances to get me into the
station, because I had never been working in a station before,
so there were special clearances. So at that time, those two
months you're speaking of, I attended a course and I may have
been Sent_out once or twice to interview a Cuban refugee or
one of our agents who had left Cuba.

Mr. Wides. And then you set up the ERS! program? Did
you start that project; or was that started when you came in?

Mr. Sarno. It had been started, the nucleus had been

formed at that time. .

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refused to disclose names.

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13

Mr. Wides. And except where there's a question of an
agent under cover who would be possibly exposed to harm or
that kind of thing in regard to the mention of other Agency
people, certainly at the level of Mr. Shackley or other

officials, Mr. Dimmar, and so forth, that the general procedures

have been that people at the Agency or retirees have not

Now, you certainly have your rights --

Mr. Sarno. No, sir. I am not questioning you, or anything
except I've been in this business a long time and I've never
Mentioned anybody's name. Now if somebody were to tell me,
if Seymour Bolton were to tell me that I could tell you all the
names of all my supervisors and everything, it's perfectly all
right. But I've never mentioned a name and I feel that I
shouldn't mention a name. |

Mr. Wides. Well, we may have to take a break and do that,

but let me go on.

With regard to the ‘Mines Cubans were

af

Suwa

Mise” program, the
not contract agents of the station, is that correct?
Mr. Sarno. No, sir.

Mr. Wides. They were proprietary employees essentially of

shiv, essentially?

Mr. Sarno.

GINGER) was a group -- that proprietary was

set up in September of 1968. Prior to that time they were a

bunch of Cubans just living down in Miami.

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2 1 Mr. Wides. And what was their relationship to the Agency
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3 2 | through you?
: 5 Mr. Sarno. They were.a group of Cuban exiles who were |
4 being funded to collect information, intelligence information, |
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5 | on Cuba.
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6 Mr. Wides.. They were paid agents?
7 Mr. Sarno. They were paid agents. ——
8 Mr. Wides. Soma of them received a fairly sophisticatad

9 training in tradecraft, in some cases communications [@
10 | operations with regard to a station in Florida, and so forth, |

ll is that not correct? : i

4 j
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& x 12 Mr. Sarno. Sophisticated equipment, yes, sir. i
a . i
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: 13 Mr. Wides. And tradecraft, general tradecraft training?
=
14 Mr. Sarno. General tradecraft training, yes, sir.

15 || Communications.training -- well, most of them ‘weren't

16 || Communicators, so they required vary little if they did :
17 |} veceive training.

18 . Mr. Wides. Would that put them in a little bit more
19 || official status of some sort, whatevar the category is called,
20: than simply being a paid informant?
21|| Mr. Sarno. No, sir. They were just like paid informants |
22 || excapt we provided them funds to operate with.

23 They are no more -- they are not contract, we did net

24 | have them under contract. ,

410 First Street, 5.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003

Bs Mr. Wides. But they would still gat training?

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1 Mr. Sarno. Yes, sir.
2 Mr. Wides. And the program first operated where? Where

3 did you physically locate? Were you at the University of

Phone (Area 202) 544-6000

4 Miami, at the Naval Air Station at the begining?

5 Mr. Sarno. No, sir.
6 Mr. Wides. Where were you at first?
y Mr. Sarno. Are you speaking of our station? Our station

8 was physically at the ade. aes

| but these Cubans did not

9 know where the station was.
10 Mr. Wides. And you just contacted them separately?
11 Mr. Sarno. They had houses that they rented and they worked

12 out of different houses, and there were many of them, so I

can't recall them.
13

WARD & PAUL

14 Mr. Wides. Did you have an office facility apart from the

15 station?

16 Mr. Sarno. Myself?
17? Mr. Wides. Yes.
18 Mr. Sarno. On One occasion, for a very short period, I

19 had an office.

20. Mr. Wides. Where was the

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H 23 Mr. Wides. Apart from the station?
e 24 Mr. Sarno. No, sir.
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1 Mr. Sarno. That was the station.
2 Mr. Wides. And what was the mission and purpose of

3 || @W@RS, when you first started out, as indicated in the project

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4 outline?

5 Mr. Sarno. They were to collect intelligence on Cuba,

6 debrief refugees and provide bodies for any possible operations
i

” required by the station.

8 Mr. Wides. They were to debrief refugses?

9 Mr. Sarno. Debrief rafugees, collect and evaluate, maintain

10 records.

MOIS: members into

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12 two groups, with only a small group involving the debriefing

13 of Cuban refugees?

WARD & PAUL

14 Mr. Sarno. Well, it wasn't too small a group, but if you
15 would speak of the whole organization overall, yes, it was a
16 small group.
17 Mr. Wides. And at what point did you set up any cover.
18 apart from the station as a proprietary or notional company;

g i Wlpaet people and the Miami station? In other

8 19 in between the @uig) people an e} ni?

3 20. words, were the companies prior to the Latin America @ogHial, -

§ F aiel

é 2] sh company that preceeded it, in time?

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Wi 20 Mr. Sarno. In the time that I handled. them, which is

@: 93 || up to the &NSER, I think there were three, three covers all

FA ;

f 24 told, or perhaps four. I think we had our debriefing, you
25 || know, under one cover.

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Mr. Wides. That was from the start? You had a separate
cover for the debriefing?

Mr. Sarno. Well, from the start we didn't have a place
for them, and it wasn't pulled together as a debriefing unit.
When a large flow of refugees started to come in is when we set |
up the special unit.

Mr. Wides. When was that?

Mr. Sarno. Well, they cut off --

Mr. Wides. '64, '63?

Mr. Sarno. It could have been '62, late '62 or '63. And

before, wa used to send our debriefers, they were within the

CUIGSe group, specialists in debriefing, area specialists is
the kind we used. And we would go out to the reception center
and check around and see who had coma out of the particular
area. |

Mr. Wides. At Opa-Locka?

Mr. Sarno. At Opa-Locka.

And our debriefers would go out and check around with the

people who came in and try to spot somebody who would be.
interesting to interview, debrief, concerning the particular
area. And so thay usually picked them up in a car and either
took them to a restaurant or took them to a motel or something
and would debrief them. And then we found that it would be
better to get a building for them to be in where we located

them altogether, where they could prepare their reports and

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everything.

Mr. Wides. And so that's when you first set up the
proprietary for the smaller debriefing component of aimee

Mr. Sarno. Well, I set up the proprietaries, the notionarv
company for a small debriafing office, and at the same time,
we rented a building, a larger building, and they used to
operate in Coral Gables, received some publicity and wa moved
them out of Coral Gables to near the airport in a building wheres

the main office was, where this main office was, where these

reports from the debriefers or any other information was
. (

collected would be processed, typed in finished form, translated
and provided to us.

Mr. Wides. About how many people did you have in AMORS.

Cubans at that time?
Mr. Sarno. Well, that's difficult to say.
Mrs Wides. 150? Would you say 150?
Mr. Sarno. I would say inside, outside, it could be

close to 150.

Mr. Wides. Did you have more than a dozen or so working
in the component on debriefing?
_ Mr. Sarno. As I recall, at one time -~- as I recall it,
we had about 22, 23 people working in debriefing.
Mr. Wides. And apart from those Cubans, you had a staff
under you of assistants and secretaries who were Agency

assigned personnel?


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Mr. Sarno. Yes.

Mr. Wides. What kind of staff did you have?

Mr. Sarno. Well, it started off originally since we
weren't big, I started off with one secretary, and it eventually
ended up that there were one or two Intel assistants --

Mr. Wides. These were Agency personnel?

Mr. Sarno. Agency personnel.

~-.and two or three case officers.

Mr. Wides. The case officers handled segments of the

Mr. Sarno. Segments of the @igugs

Mr. Wides. Now, the other, speaking very roughly, hundred
and fifty or so MGs, Cubans, you said some twenty were
involved when the debriefing program intensified. What were
the other hundred~odd Cubans involved in?

Mr. Sarno. Well, we had records personnel, we had
I would say six or seven who only worked in records and main-
taining of files, and general index cards, and that was it.
Then we had what we called our reports section which may have
had about fifteen people, twenty people, who wrote reports,
checked them out, cross-referenced, and everything else that
was involved in that.

Mr. Wides. What kind of reports did they write? What

were they writing reports about?

Mr. Sarno. Economic -- whatever they were learning from

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5 1 against Cuba, and had weapons they weren't supposed to have.
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: 2 Mr. Wides. Like Alpha-66?
3 3 _ Mr. Sarno. Alpha-66, there were many of them.
4 And we usually had ona of our outside types, either
5 recruit or get next to an individual of the group and he would
6 penetrate the group himself to report to us what they were
vi doing.
8 Mr. Wides. Do you recall the flights of the Diaz, or one
9 of the Diz brothers, over Havana dropping leaflets?
10 Mr. Sarno. What date was it?
11 Mr. Wides. I believe it was quite early, and it was not
“
@ i 12 in connection with the gQilisn
13 Mr. Sarno. I know the Diaz brothers.
3
14 Mr. Wides. Do you recall hearing of flights with -- one
15 of them with Frank Sturgis over Havana dropping leaflets?

16 Mr. Sarno. No, sir.
1? Mr. Wides. It was fairly widely known.
18 Mr. Sarno. Well, I didn’t gat into Cubans until maybe

19 it was June of '60, but the only leaflets I ever saw fly over
20-| Cuba was_the day before the invasion. Those were the only

21 ones I saw.

22 Mr. Wides. When you were in Miami, did you havea any

23 | Contact with Frank Sturgis, Frank Fiorini?

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24 Mr. Sarno. Never, never. To my knowledge, he never worke

25 for us.

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@ i 1 Mr. Wides. Not getting back to the bulk of the Qa
: 2 group, apart from the reporting on refugees and the efforts
i 3 to keep tabs, which I guess isa summary of what you are
4 saying on what exile groups might be doing that the government
5 || might otherwise not know about, is it correct that there was
|
6 | surveillance of the Miami community generally with regard to
9 possible Castro agents?
B Mr. Sarno. Not that I know of.
9 . Mr. Wides. There was no counterintelligence program in
io || the
11 Mr. Sarno. We had a counterintelligance component in the
@ 2 12 | QQeise Program.
13 Mr. Wides. Why don't you describe that?
° 14 Mr. Sarno. The counterintelligence program consisted of
15 | Very capable Cubans who knew of thea former -~- the set-up of
16 the intelligence agency inside of Cuba, so if anybody ware to
17 come out, any refugee were to come out and name an individual
18 that was a friend of theirs that we knaw or suspected of
3 19 working for the internal security which was the DSE or their
: 20: external service, the DGI, our counterintelligence group or
: 21 “one of the individuals would go out and debrief the fellow
rf 22 and collect names, and prepare reports on it, and they maintainad
@ : 23 files, and that is what it igs. |
i 24 They never got under a surveillance of any of them, becaus
. 5 || once a report was written they suspected somebody. They maintailn-

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3 a a file of them, and when Cuban refugees would come in, they
4 2 would receive lists of. names to check in their files, and if
F 5 they suspected one, then they would gather all of the
4 information possible on this individual, prepare a report,
5 name their sources, and they would pass it to the station.
6 The station in turn would prepare a memorandum and send it to
? the bureau.
8 Mr. Wides. Is it your sworn testimony that you never knew
9 of any surveillances or efforts to penetrate groups for |
10 counterintelligence purposes by Cubans under your supervision?
11 Mr. Sarno. No, sir, no. You're speaking of penetrating
le groups, yes. They penetrated groups. Surveillance -- I never

WARD & PAUL

13 sant them out on a mission to surveil anybody concerning whethe
14 they were suspect or whatever.
15 Mr. Wida@s. Was there any surveillance of Cubans in Miami

16 conducted by -- whether it was in cooperation with the Bureau

17 or not -~ conducted by any of the GUUS

‘Cubans that you were

13 aware of?

19 Mr. Sarno. I cannot recall if there ever was.

20° Mr._Wides. I don't mean a specific one.

21 Mr. Sarno. I don't recall ever giving them any assignments.
22 Mr. Wides.’ I'm not talking about assignments, I'm

23 || talking about whether you're aware of their conducting --

24 Mr. Sarno. As I say, I do not recall them conducting

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Mr. Wides. Any telephone taps?

Mr. Sarno. Never any telephone taps, we didn't have
telephone tap capability.

Mr. Wides. Any photography?
Mr. Sarno. We had a photographer.

Mr. Wides. When was he used? In what circumstances?

Mr. Sarno. Well, the biggest majority of his work was
to copy certain documents.
Mr. Wides. I mean photographic surveillance.

Mr. Sarno. There may have been. I really can't state
which one he was used on if he was sever used for photographic
surveillancs.
Mr. Wides. Which what he was used on?
Mr. Sarno. I mean if he was used on photographic
surveillance. I don't recall ever ordering him out on photo-
graphic surveillance.
Mr. Wides. Do you recall if there ever was any photo-
graphic surveillance carriad out by any of the afi?
I do not recall.

Mr. Sarno. I have no recollection.

Mr. Wides.

on

Were you getting reports of any sort, whether
you would characterize it as surveillance or not; on people
who had already coma and were in Miami as distinct from the

interview reports when the refugees first came?

Isn't it correct that the @iuu personnel were providing

you with reports on Cubans who were already in Miami?

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Mr. Sarno. Yes, sir.

Mr. Wides. Would you describe that program?

Mr. Sarno. Certainly. As I said, they penetrated these
groups, they would go around and then they would sit and talk
and.as you. would’ call it, ‘the’surveillance, the fact that they
penetrated, they would sit at the table and report on the
individual and what the individual said and what they were

Planning. We call it penetration.

To me, surveillance is to put two men on the street
following somabody from one place to another.

Mr. Wides. Were there ever occasions when the station
was suspicious as to whether Cubans in Miami might be Castro
agents that you were aware of?

Mr. Sarno. Many.

Mr. Wides. Did they ever ask.for any assistance in the

group in trying to keep tabs on those individuals or

to test their suspicions?
Mr. Sarno. No, sir.
Mr. Wides. Who would do that?
Mr. Sarno. It would be the CI section of the station.

Mr. Wides. You don't recall any situation in which -

Mr Sarno. In which

Geist participated? No, sir.
Mr. Wides. -- working with the FBI.
Mr. Sarno. The FBI occasionally would ask for the

sarvices of one of the dima, but it was mainly not to survei

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anybody. It was to provide information to them because their
name would come up ‘somewhere in a case.

Mr. Wides. What kind of assistance? You mean more than
just a chance to interview them?

Mr. Sarno. No, just intarview. They never usad them to
Yun a man on the street or anything like that, no, sir.

They tried to get one individual one tima and they didn't know
that he worked for us and they tried to hire him and he came
back and reported it. We had to advise them that he was
already working for us.

Mr. Wides. And you had 115 men and:.all---

Mr. Sarno. There were women also, sir.

Mr. Wides. And women, and all they were doing was
interviewing refugees and writing reports on axile potential
activities against Cuba?

Mr. Sarno. I would say that was the biggest majority of
their job.

Mr. Wides. What was the rest of it?

Mrz Sarno. They also went out, if our station was going

to run an operation and they needed X amount of bodies, certain

specialized personnel, the @@UAS would go and locate the
personnel, talk to them, spot them, gat their personal history
from them, send it in, and the:-people would be traced out and

checked and cleared and eventually introduced to the station

case officer who would use them in our operations.

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Mr. Wides. Who arranged for the training at the training

station at £

Mr. Sarno. For whom?

Mr. Wides. When the §Xius

various kind of tradecraft, who would arrange that, yourself?

Mr. Sarno. December, 1961 when I took it over there were
only three cases of ECGS who were sent away for special
training. Three cases, three individuals.

One came hera to Washington, the other was going to be
loaned to a station overseas. He came up and received trainings
The majority of the training given to the MG/G} was down in
Miami, Florida.

Mr. Wides. And what kind was that?

Mr. Sarno. Basic tradecraft, reports writing --

Mr. Wides. Did they ever get training in surveillance?

Mr. Sarno. Yes, they received training in surveillance.

Mr. Wides. Why did they get that?

Mr. Sarno. Well, that is part of their program of

-training them as a group.

Mr. Wides. Even though there was no use of them for
surveillance purposes?

Mr. Sarno. I do not recall, sir, ever.sending them out
on a surveillance.

Mr. DeMarco. Who conducted the training?

Mr. Sarno. Our Training Branch, personnel from our

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Training Branch.

Mr. DeMarco. From Washington?

Mr. Sarno. Yes.

Mr. Wides. You say the majority of the training was in
Florida. What period ara we talking about, throughout the
period?

Mr. Sarno. It could be spread over. Reports writing,
for instance, when the Agency, or when the station was being
cut back in personnel, this group used to produce tons of
Yeports, and when our station was being cut, the staff was
being cut, I convinced the Chief of Station into having the
reports officers, for instance, trained to ‘prepare reports
which would require very little editing or preparation once
it arrived in the station, which would take a load off the
station, and it was agreed to.

Mr. Wides. You arranged in general for the training or
the training office?

Mr. Sarno. I never trained.

j/

one

Mr. Wides. But they worked through you administratively?
Mr. Sarno. Yes.

Mr. Wides. So you were familiar with all the training

(TES personnel would have got?
Mr. Sarno. I would say all of the training that they
received during the period I was with them, with the exception

of that one year there, and also I must ‘state that although I

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1 Mr. Wides. Thsre were :some new people coming in?
° Mr. Sarno. Yes. _ Some of the people would move, they got

3 a job that paid them more, but there were very few that came

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4 in after the original, say about 1964 I would say it was well
5 astablished and very few dropped out or were taken aboard there-
6 after.

9 Mr. Wides. They all got what you referred to earlier as

8 basic tradecraft training?

9 Mr. Sarno. No, not all of them.
10 Mr. Wides. How many?
ll Mr. Sarno. There were very few of them. in the original

12 || group. I never had them trained in basic tradecraft. The

WARD & PAUL

13 original group which I took over which, if I am not mistaken,

14 || Was about eighteen of them, and I understand that prior to

15 the Bay of Pigs --

16 Mr. Wides. Eighteen in @@0GS,0r eighteen in training?

7 Mr. Sarne. Eighteen in Mijiujgsr all told.

I understood that prior to the Bay of Pigs these

18 ABO

19 had been given basic tradacraft training. I never once sent

29 | them out to receive basic tradecraft training.
21 Mr. Wides. After you came -- when you came there were

22 | eighteen fitch and eventually we're talking about 150, roughly,

23 or more?

Mr. Sarno. Yes, sir.

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25 Mr. Wides. And you never knew of any of the people who

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joined QMURy after you took over getting general tradecraft?

Mr. Sarno. No, sir, no, sir.

Mr. Wides. And to your knowledge it was only report
writing?

Mr. Sarno. Well, they trained them in each one of the
sections, and I didn't train the debriefers, so if a new man
was hired and he was put in a debriefing, he was trained u
usually by the Chief of the Debriefing Group,- he was put in
there to work along with other dabriefers to catch onto the
thing.

Mr. Wides. Now your testimony with regard to surveillance
training, who issued that, or how many people?

Mr. Sarno. If I am not mistaken, it was four or five.

Mr. Wides. When you first came, or shortly therafter?

Mr. Sarno. Yes, it was all at the -- now, now, just one
Second, because I went in surveillance training myself.

I don't racall whether this four or five whom we trained
in surveillance were trained while I had them or they were
trained before I took them.

Mr...Wides. Now after that, those four or five, no other

GUS, people to your knowledge received any surveillance

training, is that your testimony?
Mr. Sarno. That is trua, sir.
Mr. Wides. What about picks and locks?

Mr. Sarno. Nobody.

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@ é 1 Mr. Wides. That you know of received --
: 2 Mr. Sarno. Not a single one that' I know of.
F 3 Mr. Wides. Did you know anybody at Ai who had
4 capability of any previous experience at picks and locks,
5 surreptitious entry?
6 Mr. Sarno. No, sir.

9 Mr. Wides. You were not aware of anyone at gi
8 that capability? |

9 Mr. Sarno. No, sir.

10 Mr. Wides. You never discussed it with anyone at the

ll station?

12 Mr. Sarno. Possibly.

13 Mr. Wides. Well, let me ask the question, ~ the

WARD & FAUL

14 capabilities in the area of surreptitious entry or picking

15 locks and no part of (iiWgs; people in all those years?
16 Mr. Sarno. No, sir.
17 Mr. Wides. Ware the group that ware locat din your

18 homestate that were involved in the interception of any

traffic, radio traffic or Cubar, were they under your supervisign’

19
20. Mr. Sarno. They were originally under my supervision,
21 and later the station brought an individual down from Head-

22 quarters and took over that operation.

23 Mr. Wides. And when was that?

410 First Street, S.£., Washington, O.C. 20003

24 Mr. Sarno. Well, the station always had somebody at the

25 station who was reviewing all of their work and passing

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1 instructions. I handled them for a long time.

2 Mr. Wides. Until roughly?

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4 | have the date there. I think Mr paniners\the one who brought

i
5 | down the fellow from Headquarters.
6 Mr. Wides. And these people received some training

” regarding the use of (PRESE Es pt: equipment even if they had

& | Some experience as radio operators, isn't that true?

9 Mr. Sarno. Sir, I really don't know.

LO I know that I never brought an instructor down to train
Ll them in the use of radio equipment. Thase individuals had

12 worked in this work in Cuba before they came out --

13. Mr. Wides. In fntefcapt) work like this?

WARD & PAUL

14 Mr. Sarno. InfintéP@spt work, yes. We had two very
15 || brilliant fellows who were the top peonle in the communications |

16 field in Cuba.

1? And most of the radio operators had had up to twenty

18 years experience, they were alderly people, and they had been

19 in radio and they could read and they could sand it out very

20 well. .
21 ; Mr. Wides. So your testimony is that --
22 Mr. Sarno. I do not recall tham ever having been

23 trained by anybody, in any sense.

24 Mr. Wides. Or communications in general?

410 Fiest Seveat, $.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003

Mr. Sarno. Now communications generally, I cannot say thas.

25

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because several of the @ifiijfispwere trained and several of them

who Were brought out of Cuba, because several of them were in
Cuba as radio operators and then they came out. They were
in the Miami group not operating radios, but --

Mr. Wides. But during your administration of the (i,
group as case officer, you don't recall any training being
given in communications?

Mr. Sarno. No, sir.

Mr. Wides. Do you recall any cooperation of the ¢

People with the FBI and other Federal agencies trying to DF
and identify suspected illegal wireless operators in Miami,

Castro agents?

Mr. Sarno. No, sir, they nevar did.

Mr. Wides. @QWSwas not involved in that?

Mr. Sarno. No, I naver heard of any. You must remember
that when Dimmer came down and brought the fellow, I navar Saw
the traffic anymore, but during the period that I was looking
at the traffic, and I was directing that special intercept
group as part of the igs, r never once gave them an order

and never saw any that they did.

Mr. Wides. When Mr. Shackley was the station chief, did
|

you report to him or someone selse?

Mr. Sarno. I reported to my branch chief.
|

Mr. Wides. And what was’ that branch?

Mr. Sarno. FI Branch, Foreign Intelligence.

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Mr. Wides. And that was the same procedure throughout
the period?

Mr. Sarno. Yes, sir. . -

Mr. Wides. Up til '67?

Mr. Sarno. Through '67. Well, let's see, now. No, sir.
Well, it was, because later they made the AQ group, it
became a branch, and they brought in a very senior officer to
be the Branch Ghief, and I was considered the Deputy Branch
Chief. Mr. Dimmer brought in the senior officer.

Mr. Wides. And you don't feel like you can give us his
name?

Mr. Sarno. There's no reason not to. He is retired now.
Bill Caldwell.

Mr. Wides. What contact did you have with a man who
called himself {

| Mr. Sarno.
Chief.
Mr, Wides.

Mr. Sarno.

Mr. Wides. And he was your principal contact?

Mr. Sarno. Hae was my principal -- he was thse head, the

Cuban head of it.

Mr. Wides. Are you familiar with the history of the {lpm

group that he prepared in the late '60's, or worked on?

Mr Sarno. In the late "60's?

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Mr. Wides. I thought so. I thought in '66 or '67,
is what I ‘meant, that he had worked on the history of the

group.

Mr. Sarno. Well, no.
Mr. Wides. Are you familiar with the written history of

the

QW program?

Mr. Sarno. I have never seen it. I had-established the
policy that every three months he had to write up about the
group, so all of that, I understand, was all compiled into the
history, so I don't know.

Mr. Wides. As part of the Miami Station?

Mr. Sarno. As part of the Miami Station, so I don't think

-he was told in '66 or '67, start all over and prepare it.

Mr. Wides. You think it was a consolidation?
Mr. Sarno. I think it was consolidated over the vears.
Mr. Wides. And this is antitled what, do you know?

Mr. Sarno. I supposed it would be The History of the

Mr. Wides. And you've never seen it?

Mr, Sarno. I've never seen it.

Mr. Wides. Do you know if it's at Headquarters in the
Latin American Division?

Mr. Sarno. I do not know.

Mr. Wides. When the Cuban Operations Group was set up --

let's go back -- in '61 when you took over was approximately

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the period when Mr. Harvey was setting up the staff Task Force
W, is that corract?

What contact, if any, did you’ have with Task Force W
personnel as distinct from the station itself?

Mr. Sarno. None whatsoever.

Mr. Wides. They never came down and spoke to you?

Mr. Sarno. When I came out of Cuba, when I escaped from
Cuba, I was brought up here to Headquarters and debriefed, so
I imagine that the person that debriefed me, this is in July
of ‘61, I would imagine that individual was part of the Task
Force.

Mr. Wides. I think that was still in the Division. They
had not split the Task Force until the winter of 'éL, "62.

Mr. Sarno. I see. Well --

Mr. Wides. But after that when you were in Florida, you
had no contact with anyone, to your knowledge, other than the
Station personnel?

Mr. Sarno. Wall, I don't know. Occasionally they would
call me to Washington to discuss something.

Mr. Wides. And did you discuss something with people in
the Task Force, the Cuban Task Force?

Mr. Sarno. The Cuban Task Force.

Mr. Widas.

Mr. Sarno.

Mr. Wides. And did you have any contact with Desmond

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FitzGerald when it became the Special Activities Staff and he
took it over?

Mr. Sarno. I know Desmond FitzGerald, or I knaw him, and
discussed operations with him -- no, I naver sat down and
discussed an operation. I met him at a party, and that was all.

Mr. Wides. And when you came to Washington what kind of

discussions would you have ahout the St program?

Mr. Sarno. I made so many trips to Washington, I say I
was also the case officer, I used to travel and recruit people. |
I do not specifically recall ever being called to Washington to

discuss Gag,

Mr. Wides. But do you recall ever discussing the gy

program and the Cubans in it while you were in Washington?
Mr. Sarno. Well, if I would come up on a trip and some of
the people who were sitting on a desk hare who were maintaining

the records and everything of the @M@ueS, I suppose, ves, they

would come around and discuss parhaps the budget or perhaps
get them to report in a different manner. I recall on one

occasion discussing the set-up of : how the @ywag

group prepared

the debriefing reports, that they could ramove the namas from

it, instead of filing them inside the report, they put the
names on cards so they could be put into a computer machine
here.

Mr. Wides. In the period when Mr. Shackley and tr. Dimmer

were Station Chiefs, which would be '63 through '65 or so, did

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you have any contact with Mr. Sternfeld or Mr. Esterline?-

Mr. Sarno.

Mr. Wides.

Mr. Sarno.

Which period is this?
‘62 to '65 or so.

Mr. Esterline, who I believe at that time

was ~~ Mr. Esterline was --

Mr. Widas.

Mr. Sarno.

Was he in Miami?

No, Mr. Esterline was on the staff he -- I

don't know whether it was on the staff of the Task FPorce or

who at that time,

but I knew Mr. Esterline, first from his

visits. I first met Mr. Esterline when he came to Miami in

either late '61 or early '62, and I never saw him again until

he used to make his trips down, and then I understand he was

assigned overseas.

Mr. Wides.

Mr. Sarno.

Mr. Wides..

Mr. Sarno.
time.

Mr. Wides.

Mr. Sarno.

Mr. Wides.

Mr. Sarno.

Did you discuss the KGS Program with him?

At that period?
At any tima.

Well, yes, he was my Station Chief at one

You mean in '68 or ‘69?
That's right.
But not prior to that?

Well, yes, he came down on.~- prior to his

coming down and setting up the new station, he came down and

discussed with all of us who might remain at our jobs there.

Mr. Wides.

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49
Sarno. Not in the earlier --
Wides. What about Larry Sternfeld?

Sarno. No, Mr. Sternfeld was never connected with

the Cuban thing until early '68.

. Mr.

You

Wides. Let me go back to tha cover companias.

Say you set up one company for the smaller group, or

One notional that was handling the --

Mr.

Mr.

Can

Mr.

Mr.

Mr.

"68?

Mr.

Mr.

a

Mr.

Mr.

Mr.

Sarno. Refugees.
Wides. Refugees.
you give us the name of that?

Sarno. I don't recall it, sir.

‘Wides. Now, was there a Separate company --~

Sarno. For the principal group.
Wides. And what was that?

Sarno. Well, you named it off, the dt

Wides. I thought you said that didn't start until

Sarno.

Wides.

Sarno. Is that what that stands for? There was a

Wides.
Sarno. Yeah.

Wides. What was its cover?

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Mr. Sarno. They were supposed to be doing, researching
Latin America, since they had a lot of files, and you could
hear a lot of typewriters clicking all over the place.
Mr. Wides. And what's your best recollection of the name?

My best recollection is @#@aimg

Mr. Wides. Company?

Mr. Sarno. Company.

Mr. Wides. Did it havea any other names? I think vou
suggested there were evan more than two proprietaries and more
than two notionals. Did you have three or four going at one
point?

Mr. Sarno. Well, it was at one point, at one point there
wera three of them, if you included the Intercept. The
Intercept people had another name. | :

Mr. Wides. But basically there were --

Mr. Sarno. There could have been three of them at one

time, and basically there were two, yes. One of them was

the United States?

Mr. Sarno. Use of QUE} people outside the Miami area?

Mr. Wides. In the United States.

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Mr. Sarno. Nobody ever approached me on it. They were

outside of Miami, but the thing that happens is the Chief of

the Miami group, when an @igwi$ewould leave --

Mr. Wides. This is Yieeeee

Mr. Sarno.

when they would move to any area, and all they would do is to

report on Cuban exiles in that area.

Mr. Wides. And would the fact that they were leaving and
going to another area be reported by you, back through channels
to Washington for relay to CIA personnel in the area where
they were going? Was this ever done?

Mr. Sarno. Yes, it was done, yes.

Mr. Wides. And was it not uncommon in the case of Cubans
going to the New York area? Does that happen fairly frequently

Mr. Sarno. Well, since it was handled in such a loose

way, in that it was between @@@@ejpetewand this individual and

we didn't have them on the payroll.

Mr. Wides. You mean you didn't have them on the payroll
in the sense of employees, they ware regularly paid agants,
informants?

Mr. Sarno. They were given funds by E which

obviously were authorized for sort of like operational expenses
Mr. Wides. Excuse me. You're talking about when they

Were in Florida, or when thay wers moving?

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$
@ = 1 Mr. Sarno. No, when they were in New York, if they went
o
3 e to New York. .
2 5 Mr. Wides. Well, lat's go back.
4 The first question I was asking you was with regard to
5 your relaying to CIA personnel the fact that someone who had

6 been at eg in Florida was going elsewhere and you said that
7 | that happened, and then I asked you -- we will come to the
8 operational relationships in a moment -- how frequently that

9 happened in regard to people coming to Naw York. For example, |

10 I assume that there were a fair number of Cubans generally in

ll there for one or two members of G{Wpysk who went up to New York

12 during the course of all of these years.

WARD & PAUL

13 Mr Sarno. No, sir, no, sir.
14 Mr. Wides. Would you say several dozen or a dozen?

15 Mr. Sarno. So far as I recall, there was only one that
16 aver went up there, and he in turn collected two or three of
17 his other friends around him who formed a little nucleus, but |
18 there was only one that went.

19 Mr. Wides. What about other cities? What other cities

20:1 do you xecall people went to?

410 First Street, S.E., Wasnington, D.C. 20003

21 Mr. Sarno. In the United States?
20 Mr. Wides. Yas.
®@ 23 Washington? -
24 Mr. Sarno. No, sir. San Juan, Puerto Rico, and that's all,

25 || in the United States.

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Mr. Wides,. Chicago?

Mr. Sarno. No, Sir.

Mr. Wides. Anyplace on the West Coast or the Southwest?
Mr. Sarno. No, sir. |

Mr. Wides. Boston? ; i

Mr. Sarno. No, sir.

Mr. Wides. So you only recall Persons who had been in

CUUESa telling -- why don't we refer to him as @ayuwe ae
that they were going to another city as being New York and
San Juan?

Mr. Sarno. New York and San Juan are the only two I ‘ever
Yecall they ever had any CUES or ax~Qes or People that had
been in the Organization went.

Mr. Wides. Now when they went and they recruited other

People, was that &

gsuggestion or under his supervision
Mr. Sarno. They usually collected a group around People
that they trusted.

Mr. Wides. Was that up topeel

Supervision and
direction?
Mr. Sarno. Ha directed them to do it, yes. I didn't evan

a :
Know the individual, I néver met him. It's one individual.

Mr. Wides. Did ha spaak to you about the fact that he

was going to do this,

Did he consult with you on it?

Mr. Sarno. Well, 1 believe it came up -- I knew the felloy

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was leaving, because he was taken off of the role as being in
Miami, and we may have, discussed his being used while he was in
New York in case anything aver came up.

Mr. Wides. Do you recall discussing it?

Mr. Sarno. Well, yes, we did discuss it, obviously it
was discussed, because this fellow came up with a big thing
when they were going to bazooka the UN building.

Mr. Wides. Was this ona of the Novo brothers -- or was
either of the Novo brothers in @QGGD) in Florida? 1 believe
this is the name of the two people who were arrested at the

time.

Mr. Sarno. No, the £UUNa that was in New York is the one
that discovered the Plot and we informed the Bureau and the

Bureau moved in on it.

Mr. Wides. You informed the Bureau?

Mr. Sarno. We informed the Bureau of that shelling of

the UN, and it was the @MUiGS, this one @EGND up there who aot
the information.

Mr. Wides. And he relayed that to someone in New York, or

back, through & ri

<<

Mr. Sarno. we ~- ha

informed us, and we in turn advised’ our base in New York who

in turn advised the Bureau.

Mr. Wides. Which base is that, the Domestic Operations or

the Security Office?

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Mr. Sarno. Domestic Operations.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Wides. With regard to the information received from

the former @@ iy in New York about the plot to shoot a bazooka

at the UN, was Mr. Shackley the Station Chief at the time you
received that informatian?

Mr. Sarno. I don't recall the date, but the date was
hetween early '62, which it had to have been, and -- because
Shackley left which I think was in July of '64 and that would
have meant he was the Chief of Station.

Mr. Wides. Well, didn't he just indicate before while we
were taking a rbreak that you had recalled that Shackley was
the Station Chief?

Mr. Sarno. I don't recall whether he was exactly the
Station Chief or not. I can't place the date with what had
happened, so I know I went back to the Station and I reported
it, and it in turn was reported. Now, if I told it to Shackley

or if I told it to Dimmer, if I told it to the two different

Branch Chiefs that were there. at the time, I do not recall.

Mr. Wides. Now would’ that report be in the Guy file?
Mr. Sarno. In the history?

Mr. Wides. No, in the file, the project file.

If wa got that date when that took place, the date when

£

the Agency had the information, would your report and report of

the branch or station in Florida be in the 4

Gy project file

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or would it be in some other file?

Mr. Sarno. I don't think that they maintain a chrono on
It was voluminous. Once they were processed by the
Agency and put into our communications channel, be it by
dispatch or by cable, I don't think they retained all of those
tons of files.

Mr. Wides. Do you recall who the FI Branch Chief was at
the time?

Mr. Sarno. No, sir.

If you giva me a date that I know --

Mr. Widas. I believe it was '64.

Mr. Sarno. If it was early 1964, then Mr. Shackley was
there. If it was late 1964 when Dimmer came, then there was
another branch, so there were two branch chiefs.

Mr. Wides. Now did you relay this information, did you
say, to Washington, or directly to New York?

Mr. Sarno. Sir, I never handled communications.

Mr. Wides. Well, I didn't mean you --

Mr. Sarno. If I write it up, I giva it to my branch chief
and my branch chief in turn sends it out. But to me, it would
seem logical, knowing communications, that we would send the
cable directly to New York with info to Washington.

Mr. Wides. Ware you ever told that communications had
been made to New York? You said before --

Mr. Sarno. Yes, I was told, because I think there may have

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3
= 1 been a cable or something coming down and giving the boys
i=)
i 2 eredit for the thing. ,
2 3 Mr. DeMarco. Do you recall now the name of this one

4 NipeomWwho went to New York?

5 Mr. Sarno. His name was Enrique.

6 Mr. Wides. Could you spell that?

7 Mr. Sarno. E-n-r-i-q-u-e, that is his first name.

8 I don't recall his last name.

9 Mr. DeMarco. Lazarus?

10 Mr. Sarno. No. Lazarus is not a last name.

ll Mr. Wides. How many people did he have working with him?
a , -
2
< 12 Mr. Sarno. Sir, I don't recall, but I know there was nore
&
ie]
a 13 than one or two.
3

14 Mr. Wides. And would@gat sggive you reports that he

15 sent down to &

16 Mr. Sarno. Yes, sir.

1? Mr. Wides. And what did the reports talk about?
18 Mr. Sarno. They were on Cuban exiles, groups, collection

19 of money, Alpha 66 and people of that group who were up in
20.| New York City.
21 Mr. Wides. Was it your impression at the time that this

e2 || group had no contact with any CIA offices in New York?

410 First Street, §.E., Washington, O.C. 20003

@ 23 Mr. Sarno. Which group, sir?
24 Mr. Wides. The group that this fellow Enrique had.
25 Mr. Sarno. Had no contacts with anybody else?

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Mr, Wides. ‘With any CIA offices in New York. Was your
impression that the only contact that he had with CIA was all
the way back through Miami?

Mr. Sarno. I believe that was the case, yes, sir.

Mr. Wides. You had no understanding?

Mr. Sarno. Well, obviously once this thing came up, we
put this fallow in contact with somebody in the base up there
who in turn dslivered them to the Bureau.

Mr. Wides. And this was the Domestic Operations Base, not |
the Security Office?

Mr. Sarno. Domestic Operations.

Mr. Wides. Now thereafter, did they keep contact wit-

this group?

Mr, Sarno. I cannot recall.
Mr. .Wides. Did you continue after that incident to get

reports through

Mr. Sarno. I believe so, yes.

Mr. Wides. With no indication whether they were also in
touch with tha Agency?

Mee-Sarno. No, sir.

Mr, Wides. You weran't curious, or did you ever inquire?

Mr. Sarno. Well, I would believe it to be that they were

not in contact with anybody up thera, because if the report
were to come down, they would probably have indicated in their

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Mr. Wides. No, I mean after that, after they were put
in touch with the base.

Mr. Sarno. That's what I was speaking of. Many reports
that came there after, they would have indicated that it had
been passed, and I don't recall ever reading a report from
them that he had passed the information on to any contact up
there.

Mr. Wides. Do you recall any instance in which the

Agency asked, through you, and in turn through Gite
particular people in New York be watched or investigated?

Mr. Sarno. No, sir.

Mr. Wides. How would they decida what groups or what
individuals to penetrate or keep under surveillance?

Mr. Sarno. Well there were the active groups. This

fellow used to come down to Miami and he would talk to

SEB ould tall him, here is people here who
are talking about collecting money, about a supposed operation,
how much money are they getting for it --
Mr. Wides. Whare would he gat that informatian from, from
you?

Mr. Sarno. Get what?

fsiget that --

Mr. Wides. Where would ¢ a

Mr. Sarno. The MI group knew more about what was going on

in Cuban operations in the Miami area than we did, so most of

the information we obtained was through them.

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Mr. Wides. So how would he get the information about
potential targets in New York?

Mr. Sarno. Bacause thay had the groups down in Miami
Penetrated, so in Miami, these groups in Miami, would discuss
their contacts with the splinter group sitting up in New York
and the information would come about.

4

Mr. Wides. You never got any written instructions or

oral instructions when you were in Washington or Miami to isee

if you could arrange for this person to get information on
people in Naw York?

Mr..Sarno. Never. Never once.

Mr. Wides. What about picketing in New York by Cuban
personnel? There's some reference to that in testimony we've
already received. |

Mr. Sarno. There is one incident of the Mexico -- I think
it was against Mexico, where they went to an affair or somethin
and threw out leaflets.

Mr. Wides. What about picketing of an airlins company or
an airline offica?

Mr. Sarno. I heard that that took place, but I was not
in Miami at the time. I was away on a trip.

Mr. Wides. But your understanding was it involved OS
personnel?

Mr. Sarno. This individual was involved in it.

Mr. Wides. And what did you understand had been the

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origins of the picketing? How would it come about?

Mr. Sarno. Well, I don't believe it was started, I know
it wasn't started in sa%NmMS because one individual cannot start
it, but the groups, the Cuban exile groups who were located in
New York decidad to picket it because, I baliave, of Mexico's
relations with Cuba.

Mr. Wides. At this time, wasn't the Agency carrying on
a wide variety of operations to try and isolate Cuba economically
and. commercially?

Mr. Sarno. I believe they were, -yes. I was never involved
in any of those operations.

Mr. Wides. And including air traffic people, airlines
going to Cuba. That was one aspect of the efforts. to isolate
Cuba.

Mr. Sarno. Well, the airlines: going to Cuba, if If
can racall at that time, were not Mexican airlines.

Mr. Wides. You didn't have any idea at the time as to
what --

Mr. Sarno. Mexican airlines do not fly to Cuba. The

Cubans always flew their airplanes over. The Mexicans were

not flying.

Mr. Wides. So you understood this to be harrassment of
a Mexican Company or a Mexican national company, because of
Mexico's general relations with Cuha?

Mr. Sarno. General relations with Cuba, that is what I

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understood it to be.
Mr. Wides. And you didn't have any information that the
Agency was aware of it heforehand?
Mr. Sarno. No, sir, I was never involved in it. I don't

recall ever seeing the reports or anything, because as I say,

I did an awful lot of travelling when I handled the QUMase
| Mr. Wides. When you discussed this with the people at
the Agency, is your testimony that you naver heard any indica-

tion that the Agency was involved in that picketing?

Mr. Sarno. That is -~

Mr. Wides. No one's ever suggested --

Mr. Sarno. Nobody ever suggested that the Agency was the
One who backed the people who did the picketing, no.

Mr. Wides. Now was there a time when @M@@@S personnel who
had not moved outside of the Miami area were ever used or
involved in any Agency Operations to your knowledge outside of
Miami, went on trips to do little jobs?

Mr. Sarno. @@gSswent out of Miami in order to do little
jobs --

Mr, Wides. I don't mean to Cuba.

Mr. Sarno. No, they went out of Miami to do little jobs
like for instance a specialist in say, sugar, would say come
out of Cuba through Spain and he'd end up in New York, and so

» would go from Miami to New York to debrief him. Or we

would hear of somebody who knew of a well=known government

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figure in Cuba who came out and he goes to Louisiana or he

goes to Chicago. Well, an AMO

} would be dispatched over to his

house to debrief him. That is the only places I aver sent the

were ever sent.

or the Ae

Mr. Wides. What about with regard to surveillances or
breaking or entering?

Mr. Sarno. Never.

Mr. Wides. Mr. Sturbitz, do you know him?

Mr. Sarno. Sturbitz?

Mr. Wides. He was involved in economic warfare against
Castro. |

Mr. Sarno. Sturblitz or Sturbitz?

Mr. Wides. Sturbitz.

Mr. Sarno. Yes, I know Sturbitz.

Mr. Wides. He testified he conducted some inquiries in

regard to the question of @uigest involvement in possible illegal

activities, breaking and entering, surveillance and so forth.
Were you aware of those investigations?
Mr. Sarno. No, sir.

Mr. Wides. Have you ever heard any charges or allegations

or suggestions that diWiG@e> personnel were involved in breaking
and entering in New York against groups like the Fair Play For

Cuba Committee, the Vinceremos Brigade?

Mr. Sarno. No, sir, no, sir.

Mr. Wides. And you never heard anything about the use of

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CANOES, in regard to any kind of harrassing action against those
groups?

5

Mr. Sarno. No, sir, never.

Mr. Wides. Do you know if any members
heen used in thease kinds of activities without your express |
direction or not as part of its CIA task?

Mr. Sarno. No, sir.

Mr. Wides. You never heard anything about it?

Mr. Sarno. Never heard.

Mr. Wides. In Florida also?

Mr. Sarno. In Florida also.

Mr. Wides. What about with regard to Puerto Rico and

QRS going there. Tell us about that.

Mr. Sarno. Well, there ware several @@ime who left Miami

and want over to Puerto Rico. There is a large Cuban community
in Puerto Rico with the attendant Cuban exile groups, and it |
was the same thing as was going on in New York. Thay would
collect data on what these groups were doing, operations that
they were preparing, funds that they were collecting, et
cetera.

Mr. Wides. Did you see those reports as they came in?

rolswould prepare

eo

Mr. Sarno. Yes, they came in and @Sany

them and send them into the office.

Mr. Wides. When did they start including reports on

Puerto Rican affairs?

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Mr. Sarno. Never.
Mr. Wides. No discussion in those reports --
Mr. Sarno. Never once did they write up about Puerto

Rican political affairs. I never once saw a report.

Mr. Wides. Did -you ever have any discussion with Sem Semte,
or anyone involved in the Puerto. Rican Cuban community about
Puerto Rican affairs?

Mr. Sarno. Naver.

Mr. Wides. Was there a station operating at that time

for the Caribbean in Puerto Rico?

Mr. Sarno. No, sir.

Mr. Wides. During the entire period, '61 til about '67?

Mr. Sarno. To my’ knowledge, there wasn't. There was
not a station.

Mr. Wides. Do you want to go ahead?

Mr. DeMarco. Just a couple.

You mentioned, or it was touched upon earlier, the

period of time you were actually in Cuba, 1961.

Mr. Sarno. ‘'60 and ‘61.

Mr. DeMarco. what’ requirements were levied upon you when
you left to go to Cuba?

Mr. Sarno. None.

Mr. DeMarco. Well, you'd better explain that. I don't

understand that answer at all. You just went on a vacation?

Mr. Sarno. I was transferred from a foraign country to

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Cuba because they needed me.

Mr. DeMarco. What foreign country were you transferred
from?

Mr. Sarno. I don't think that I should state that.

Mr. DeMarco. I insist that you answer that.

Mr. Wides. Let's go off the record.

(Discussion off the record.) |

Mr. DeMarco. For tha record, I think I should explain to
you that we are highly interested in the sort of activities
that you were involved in in Cuba in 1960 and '61, but our
investigation has to a certain point been slowed down by the
inability to obtain the right kinds of documents and that
being the case, and your insistence here on not answering
certain questions, will require us to simply have you come
back once we have cleared this up with your superiors at the
Agency and once they have been more forthcoming with documents
that were long ago requested about your activities.

I don't want to pursue just suspicions with you, I'd
rather talk to you about specific dates-and facts.

We ara going to pursue this very vigorously, and the
reason I'm interested in it is the gambling background, and
I would lika to know your training in that area, your experienc
in that area and thea reasons why you wera down there.

Now if there is anything you want to tell me now, or do

you want to come back --

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Mr. Sarno. Sure, I'll tell you now. I was in a country --
and I don't think I have to name the country because you are
interested in Cuba and you ara interested in the operation that
I had in Miami and I don't think you're interested in what I
did before I want to Cuba. I tell you that nobody gave me any
instructions when I went to Cuba. I knew the Chief of Station
in Cuba and had known him for many years. He asked for me

specifically to come over for my abilities or qualifications

or axperience. I climbed on an airplane and I went to Cuba.

I met the Chief of Station and he told me what he wanted

me to do.

Mr. DeMarco. What's his name?

Mr. Sarno.

Mr. DeMarco. You met (ge oeiR and he told you what he

wanted you to do?

What did he tell you?

Mr. Sarno. He told me he wanted me to set up a stay-behind
net in Cuba because the situation was getting very bad and he
would like to set a stay-behind net up in Cuba. .

Mr. Wides. This is with the break in Cuban relations?

Mr. Sarno. That's right, the pending break in diplomatic

relations and the rest of the things, and he wanted to sat up
a net over in Cuba. And that is why he called for me.
Mr. DeMarco. Okay. So you --

Mr. Sarno. I went into Cuba and did not hava a job. I had

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no cover. I went in as a tourist, a tourist can wear thin so
I had to scrounge around in different ways. w had a brother-
in~law who was a professional gambler. When I was a kid, he
died. He taught me a little about gambling, so I used to go
to the black jack tables and I would win money here, there and |
the other place.

Mr. DeMarco. Is this the hotel black jack tables
predominantly?

Mr. Sarno. No, they had black jack, roulette, they had
baccarat. I would go in there, I would make myself seen, they
would see that I was wearing good clothes and I was winning

money at the gambling tables and that's it.

I am not to be tied into any Syndicate or anything like
it. I didn't know a single soul.

Mr. DeMarco. You knew no one?

Mr. Sarno. Nobody.

Mr. DeMarco. And your task then, which you learned on
arriving there, was to set up a network?

Mr. Sarno. To sat up a network of agents in Cuba, yes.

Mr. DeMarco. So you started mesting people to do that?

Mr. Sarno. No.

We never meet people to do that.

Mr. DeMarco. Describe to me how you did it.

Mr. Sarno. People ware spotted by other individuals and

they're checked out, and once they're chacked out and their

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clearance is obtained on them, they are delivered to me for
ma to handle and train-and what have you.

Mr. DeMarco. I see.
Ware any of those Americans?

Mr. Sarno. No, I never spotted any Americans. There

were given to me to use as, to handle some of the other ones
that were involved.

Mr. DeMarco. Were they also involved in the same type of
cover you Were, gambling? |

Mr. Sarno. No. They were not in the same cover. As I
Say, it was a. cover provided by the Agency. It was.a cover I
just naturally stumbled into since I was going to the
different casinos and I was winning money there and I could
pass myself off as a tourist-gambler.

Mr. DeMarco. Thsse other two Americans you were talking

about, can you name them?

Mr. Sarno. Well, I'll give you the name. One I would
name, bacause I was not involved with the other one very long.
One's name is Emelio Rodriquez, but he is dead now.

Mr. DeMarco. He was an American?

Mr. Sarno. Yes, he died of a heart attack. And the
other was Julian.

Mr. DeMarco. Julian?

Mr. Sarno. Julian. I don't recall the last name, but he ©

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only remained for about two months after I arrived.

Mr. DeMarco. What were these two people doing in Cuba
prior to the time they were turned over to you and you met
them?

Mr. Sarno. Collection of intelligence.

Mr. DeMarco. For the Agency?

Mr. Sarno. Yes, for the Agency. They were agents of the
Agency, as was I. But they were residing in Cuba.

Mr. DeMarco. At any time while you were in Cuba, for that
matter, at any time, did you become aware of any Agency
relationships with -- I'm going to use the term generically --
organized crime. Do you understand what I mean by that?

Mr. Sarno. Yes, certainly.

Mr. DeMarco. Whether or not organized, people who you've
read about in the paper, or you would consider to be involved
in that kind of business, are you aware of any relationships
between any Agency personnel in Cuba or alsewhere?

Mr. Sarno. None whatsoever.

Mr. DeMarco. During the period of time that you were in
the casinos, playing black jack and roulette and so forth, did
you get an opportunity to meet the people that were running
the casinos?

Mr. Sarno. No.

There was. one big Swede in. the Capri that because it was

close to where .I was living I would go in there more often, and

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as soon as I take off from my house, my apartment, I would
head over there and he was always seeing me in and offer me
drinks, but he was not a big wheel, he was just one of their
employees. |

Mr. DeMarco. Where was this?

Mr. Sarno. At the Capri.

Mr. DeMarco. You say a big Swede?

Mr. Sarno. A biq Swede, a blond-haired fellow. I didn't
even know his name, I'd just call him Swede.

Mr. DeMarco. Was he an American, or from Sweden?

Mr. Sarno. I think he was from America.

Mr. DeMarco. Were any of the peovle that you were
involved in handling in Cuba commercial or airline people?

Any airline people?

Mr. Sarno. No, sir.

Mr. DeMarco. Did any of them have official Cuban govern-
Ment positions?

Mr. Sarno. Yas.

Mr. DeMarco. They did?

.Mr. Sarno. Some of them did, those were the ones that
you were looking for.

Mr. DeMarco. I don't have anything more at this time.

Mr. Wides. I am just a little puzzled by your testimony

regarding the @i@iiGhactivity with regard to the Cuban community,

You indicated there was a CI capability, but if I understa

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it, you said the only penetration was fory purposes of finding
out about exile activities being planned against Cuba.

What was your testimony with regard to the use of AWC

for members of the Cuban community who might come under
suspicion as possibly being intentionally or unintentionahly 7 |

Mr. Sarno. Suspect?

Mr. Wides. They were employed or they were not employed
in any way regarding checking on this?

Mr. Sarno. If you mean to say did they go around and
surveil them --

Mr. Wides. No. In any sense of counterintelligence
work, keeping their ‘ears open and reporting back information
that might be of a suspicious nature. |

Mr. Sarno. Wall, to explain it, if an Gm were to walk

into a place and see a friend and the friend says did you see

Juan, do you know Juan is here, and the @us

himself knows and
the guy he’s talking to that Juan used to work for the Internal
Security in Cuba, it's obvious. Where's he at, try to find
him.

And then they would go back to the files and dig out all
the information and in would come a report. “Juan is in the
city of Miami and here's the stuff that we have on him. He
was a Castro collaborator, or he's a member of ‘the security

forces over there, and everything.

Mr. Wides.. So.in general it would be fair to say -- and

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I'm not trying to twist your testimony, I know you referred

to the basic purpose baing to keep tabs on what was going on

.

so you would be aware of what Alpha-66 and groups like that

were planning, but in- general, they were the eyes and ears of

the Station in the Cuban community and might come up with

counterintelligence information as well as the information

about the activities?

Mr.
Mr.
this was
Mr.
Mr.
but they

CI, that

Sarno. Yes, sir, yes, sir.

Wides. And as you understand it on a smaller scale,
also true with reqards to the group in New York?
Sarno. Yes, sir.

Wides. It was not simply to find out about Alpha-66,
would also report to the extent that they obtained

is counterintelligenca information, about the Cubans

in New York?

Mr.

Mr.

the UN?

Mr.

Mr.

time?

Mr.

Mr,

Sarno. Yes, sir.

Wides. What about with regards to the activities at
Any reports regarding UN activity ralative to Cuba?
Sarno. No, sir.

Wides. Was there a Cuban mission at the UN at this

Sarno. Yes, sir.

Wides. And this group never relayed any information

regarding the Cuban mission or the people they contacted in

New York?

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Mr. Sarno. No, sir.

Mr. Wides. Why wouldn't they have been used for that
purpose?

Mr. Sarno. Because that is the Bureau's domain. We never
checksd up on Cubans, the diplomats who were in the UN, nobody
was ever in contact with them, they never reported on any
Cuban diplomats in the UN or any of the Cubans seeing them or
anything.

Mr. Wides. Did you ever hear any stories whethar they

were associated with Ques, or. not of Cuban exiles being

involved in any harrassment or surveillance of groups in

America friendly toward the Castro regime, such as the

Vinceremos Brigade and the Fair Play For Cuba Committee?
Mr. Sarno. No, sir.

Mr. Wides. You were not aware of any activity by exiles?

I'm not talking about necessarily

Mr. Sarno. Not of any activities.

Mr, Wides. You never heard anything?

Mr. Sarno. I never heard anything.

You're smiling. I'm telling you, I never heard anything.

Mr. Wides. What about Cubans in the late '60's after the
Vietnam War arose, being involved, Cuban exiles, in any
harrassment or surveillance of peace groups? What do you know
about that?

Mr. Sarno. Nothing.

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Mr. Wides. Do you know anything about Cubans coming up
from Miami to be involved in surveillance or disruption of
any peace demonstrations in Washington?

Mr. Sarno. Na, sir.

Mr. Wides. You never haard of that?

Mr. Sarno. I never heard of it. I know no MUS and 1

never heard of any other Cubans.

Mr. Wides. Is there anything else that you -- have you
gotten a clear understanding of our lines of interest?

Mr. Sarno. Yas, I have.

Mr. Wides. -- would like to tell us, or any information -+

Mr. Sarno. I have no information. I ran a group there
and we were never involved in anything which I would consider
to be illegal. They were working against the government of
Cuba.

Mr. Wides. I understand that.

Mr. Sarno. And that is where all of their energy went.

Mr. Wides. Who was it who would ask you to have mambars

»detailed for missions elsewhere in America?

You described one where they would go to another city to
debrief somebody.

Mr. Sarno. I would --

Mr. Wides. How would you get those instructions? From

the Branch Chief?

Mr. Sarno. No, I wouldn't get the instructions. Since it

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was a group and we were collecting economic and political
intel -- ,

Mr. Wides. Where would you get the information that’ there
was a target of opportunity or someone to be debriefed in
another city?

Mr. Sarno. If the EShy were to come up with the informa-
tion, if the SAnyp Were to come up with the information, he
would come in and report it and I would authorize him to go
into that city and find him, because the information could
come in many ways.

See, they were known as the Cuban municipalities and
Operations in the city of Miami, and everybody that came out
from like a provinca or a state would register in it, and
as soon as they got information, the word would get around that
Joe Blow came in or something like that, and the word would get
back to the gis and the Gas would say, wsll, wea should

discuss with this fellow, and that's it.

Mr. Wides. You never got any requests for personnel
to be made available for that kind of task from Washington?

Mr. Sarno. To debrief an individual?

Mr. Wides. Or to travel in general.

‘Mr. Sarno. Yes, yas, they would come down and say, we
would like a person because Washington would hear of an

individual and would like for him to go over and debrief.

Mr. Wides. What office?

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= 1 Mr. Sarno. It would come out of the Cuban branch.

°

: 2 Mr. Wides. duban. Operations Task?

: 5 Who would come down? Just a mamber of the staff?
4 Mr. Sarno. Come down? They usually came in a cable.
5 It said, you know, wa understand such and such a person is

6 living at such and such an address and they worked at such and
7 such, suggest send an Ge out to debrief.

8 Mr. Wides. Did you have a particular point of contact:

9 or Several people who were particular points of contact for

10 |} you that would tend to be the ones sending you cables?

1i Mr. Sarno. No, I wasn't the Station Chief. The cables

12 | come into the station, the Station Chief would pass it to me

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14 Mr. Wides. Okay.

15 I think that's all the questions we have, and I want

16 to thank you for your patience, it's been a long morning.

1? (Whereupon, at 12:42 o'clock p.m., the hearing recessed.)

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