187-10002-10105) | 2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992 |

Date:09/30/93
Page: 1

m

JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM
IDENTIFICATION FORM

AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY : SSCIA
RECORD NUMBER : 157-10002-10105 ,
RECORDS SERIES :
TRANSCRIPT

AGENCY FILE NUMBER :

ORIGINATOR : SSCIA
FROM :
TO:

TITLE :
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM HARVEY

DATE : 06/25/75
PAGES : 62

SUBJECTS :
ZRRIFLE
CASTRO
ROSELLI, JOHNNY
OPERATION MONGOOSE
BISSELL, RICHARD
ASSASSINATION
KENNEDY, JOHN F.
THE PRESIDENT
QUWIN
MAFIA ~
SILVER, ARNOLD

DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT
CLASSIFICATION : T ~-
RESTRICTIONS : REFERRED
CURRENT STATUS : P
. DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 09/30/93

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counterespionage for a brief period against the Japanese and

the Italians and the Russians in '41. Then during most of the
War, against the Germans, and then beginning in early '45 until
the middle of '47 against the Soviet service again.

Mr. Schwarz. And then in 1947, did you join the CIA as
head of the Soviet Intelligence Branch?

Mr. Harvey. That is correct.

Mr. Schwarz. Is that also counterespionage?
Mr. Harvey. Yes, it was.

Mr. Sehwarz. And then between 1947 and 1952, you worked

on Soviat counterespionage and certain special operations in
the Department for Plans, is that right?
Mr. Harvey. Well, that is correct. It was a particular

command and staff responsibility on Feommuniea Hons intelligences

and for - .a: period of, I would think probably eight to ten

months, I: headed a planning staff, along with that.

Mr. Schwarz. In 1952, did you go to #semitin

von’ for the CIA?

Mr. Harvey. I did.

Mr. Schwarz. And were you there until. 1959?
Mr. Harvey. Until the end of 1959.

Mr. Schwarz. I understand, Mr. Harvey, that you had some

rather substantial accomplishments there, such as

| Could you just very succinctly describe the

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1 foperation and then move on?

Mr. Harvey. Well, very briefly, that is an operation that

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5 Senator Tower. You and who?

Oe

7 the, if not the most, knowledgeable senior officer in the

9 And one of the reasons I went was to attempt to

10 |mount this operation.

11 In substance, what it amounted to was setting up a fairly

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24 Senator Tower. Were not what?

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25 Mr. Harvey °

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Mr. Schwarz. I have been told, Mr. Harvey -- is this not

correct ~-- that you not only conceived the program butix

ae

Mr. Harvey. I did.

Mr. Schwarz. In 1959, did you become Chief of the Foreign
Intelligence Staff Bivision D?
Mr. Harvey. That is correct.

Mr. Schwarz. Now is Division D a division of the CIA which

is responsible for geommun.

Mr. Harvey. That is also correct.

Mr. Schwarz. But part -~
Mr. Harvey. But I would like to clarify it, if I may,

Mr. Schwarz. It was the division of the clandestine services,

which was the focal point and was responsible for primarily two

Mr. Harvey. Yes, in two ways: complete control and

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coordination of any such efforts,. approval and assessment of the
security risk, and also in the direct procurement through
Operational means abroad, but not-sin this country.

ES.

Mr. Schwarz. And by operational, you mean (enemiigmineo.s

Mr. Harvey.

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be covered as well.

Mr. Schwarz. Now, did a man call¥®

Deputy Director for Plans,

for you in Staff D?

Mr. Harvey. Yes, ha did.

Mr. Schwarz. At some point, did (iy Donmelh rAécount to
you a conversation concerning Patrice

Mr. Harvey. Yes.

Mr. Schwarz. y wf said to you?

Mr. Harvey. Vir OubDonné: game to me and

to undertake ah operation in
Congo, one of the objectives of which was the elimination of
Patrice Lumumba. He also told me that he haa declined to
undertake this assignment.

Mr. Schwarz. Did Mr Bissell subsequently have a conversa~

tion with you in which he also recounted the fact that he had

requested (Mr 118 to undertake such an operation?

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of assassination is obviously a two-pronged subject, ours and
theirs. We spent countless hours over the years trying to
determine the parameters of how far the Soviet service was
willing to go. This was partly a question of assessment, .
this was partly a question, to put it just as bluntly,
of self-protection.

I will try to summarize what I think are fair conclusions.

In the field of political assassination, although I cannot

document this by evidence, I have no question but what the
Soviet service has, does, and will continue to use the tool o
assassination to accomplish poditical gains inside and outside
of the USSR. In the intelligence field, I think you have to
Make a. distinction, the distinction roughly -- and I'm over-
simplifying this slightly -- but a distinction into perhaps
three classes.

One, their own ethnics or nationals. Sacondly, indigénous
agents Of-third countries.And thirdly, the recognized official

staff officers of other intelligence services.

During the seven years that I spent§ My which was
the longest continuous period that I was exposed in depth to
Soviet Executive Action, we lost a great many Russians, a great
many Germans, a certain number of Czechs, Poles and other
nationalities.

“Mrs. Schwarz. When you say you lost Russians, you mean

Russians who were working with the United States?

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Mr. Schwarz. Anyway, it exists, as a combination.
Mr. Harvey. In other words, if you want to put it in just

these blunt terms, it would have been a lot easier for tha KGB

Mr. Schwarz. In describing the Soviets, you distinguish
between political assassination, direct agents of the United
States, and finally the emigres and foreign nationals.

Mr. Harvey. And’ also -~ well; not foreign nationals, but
emigres and Soviet nationals.

Mr. Schwarz. That's what I meant. Soviet nationals.

Mr. Harvey. The most merciless, the field where they are
the most merciless are their own defected agents, of course.

Mr. Schwarz. Now, to your knowledge, has the United States
ever assassinated a defected agent or a third country?

Mr. Harvey. You mean an American agent who has defected
or doubled?

Mr. Schwarz. Yaes..

Mr. Harvey. To my personal knowledge, no.

'Mr. Schwarz. What about persons who are third country
enemies of the United States?

Mr. Harvey. No.

Mr. Schwarz. You don't know any instance of the United

States assassinating any person who is in the non-political

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Eyes Only basis, and the first part of this was the necessary
documentation for the authority which was later signed off on
by Dick Helms as Deputy Director.

Beginning on my page 4, your middle of page 3.-~

Mr. Schwarz. Well, just a moment. Page 1 is a cover story,

not the real story, the objectives--
Mr. Harvey. It is both.
Mr. Schwarz. But it does. not recite as an objective, 2° isi:
assassination or: assassination: capability.
Mr. Harvey. No, it does not.

=m

Mr. Schwarz. Instead, it cites fEe¥obtaitting. of code’

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Mr. Harvey. Which, I would like to point out, was a
perfectly legitimate objective and was not in a sanse, a cover
story except that if this project had gone so far as to the
actual recruitment of any agent for assassination or the targat-
ting of any target or the mounting of any operation, it would
have been under this as a cover. But, those assets that were

spotted by QJUWINN, for instance, under ZRRIFLE were also

honestly considered for possible clandestine procurement {6 a

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So it's -- maybe I'm not making this clear, it's a cover
in a sense, but it's not a phony cover, in other words.
Mr. Schwarz. Dual purpose.

Mr. Harvey. It was a dual purpose.

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Mr. Schwarz. You mentioned QJWINN. Was OJWIN/ an agent
who you did hold in reserve for possible usa in connection |

with the Exacutive Action program?

Mr. Harvey. No, OQJWIN’ is an agent that I considered for

possible use and used for a limited period through @Arn

for the spotting of individuals with criminal and underworld

1
connections in Europe for possible multi-purpose use, none of
cael

whom were ever advised of the use, none of whom, as far as I
Personally know, were. ever used.

Mr. Schwarz. But the multi-purpose use included as one
purpose the possible use in assassination?

oe
Mr. Harvey. Only /the sense that had we ever been saddled

with a flat, if you will, command performance on assassination.
I might have considered the people spotted by WIN as possibil-
ities.

But, you see, before anybody that is ever spotted is
approached for any operation and particularly -- and please, I
don't mean to sound pedantic on this, =-<dowtt=mean-te—--- is
Qa rks Be
actually approached, there #s-a long period of assessment,

crosschecks, so on and so forth. This particular spotting

mechanism never actually want that far, as far as I know.
I only know of one use made by QJUWIN until we terminated

him some months later, I don't remember the exact date. It was

before I went to Rome. I know it was in connection with an

peration in the Congo that was not an assassination operatio

top secret Publ

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51

and had, as far as I know, personally, at least, nothing to do
with assassination.

I have checked pages 1 and 2? and 3 and my page 4.

Mr. Schwarz. Are pages 4 through 7, in your judgment;

pages that were written by {Me

Mr. Harvey. As a guess, I'd say thay appear to be in the
same writing as these first three pages.

Mr. Schwarz. Are pages 8 and 9 pages that are written by
you?

Mr. Harvey. Well, just a moment, let me get to those.

I would also like to point out that from page 4 that --
that is page 4, as long as it continues in the same handwriting
was - not a part of this so-called Project Outline, these I

would guess were probably E34 agSuLven's notes and probably

oe

based, at least to an extent, on discussions he had with me,
and certain sort of problems and questions and principles that
I tossed out to be considered and cares to be exercised.

Mr. Schwarz. Then pages 8 and 9 are in your handwriting,
is that right?”

Mr. Harvey. Pages 8 and 9 are in my handwriting.

Mr. Schwarz... And at the bottom of page 8, does that

indicate that you had a conversation with fim erg on January
26th?

Mr. Harvey. Yas, it does.

Mr. Schwarz. And is it’ your judgment that that is January

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26, 1961 and is about the subject of Executive Action?
Mr. Harvey. Yas, it is.
Mr. Schwarz. And it followed your conversation with Mr.
Bissell that you have recounted?
Mr. Harvey. I think probably that might be -- well, when
I first looked at this, I thought this, well, this has got to

be ‘62, but I am almost certain now that it is not. If this

is true, this might

Place the first discussion that I had with

Pes ars

(early January und this is. difficult to pinpoint

Dick Bissell
because there were several such discussions in varying degrees

of detail during the period in the spring, and very early in

‘61 to the fall of ‘61 period, but I did find out fairly early

‘7 tasmamennsssiesasacsnesseshiess Sm ND TN

Now, these two pieces of paper, well, I say two pieces of
paper, what they are from -- they are in my handwriting. It's

from a yellow pad, probably the duplicate of this that I used

to keep on my desk and just’ make rough notes of conversations

that I had, telephone and otherwise, with various people.
Once a week I would jgo through them and either destroy them)

classified . trash; . dictate from them, or occasionally save

them. There is no relationship batween the material that

appears after the line two-thirds of the way down the page, just

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53

8
¢
5 1 before the “ 26/LSAS,°, and the material which appears above
°
3 * Vit which is tabbed SID G, tab 21.
2 5 Mr. Schwarz. That would be Sid Gottlieb?

4 . Mr. Harvey. Sid Gottlieb.

Ss) Mr. Schwarz. Doesn't the conversation with Sid Gottlieb

6 llon the 25th of January indicate you had discussion which include

7 \lthe word bankruptcy and you felt assassination was --

& ; Mr. Harvey. There was a general philosophic discussion of
9 llassassination and assassination techniques. There was also a
10 |'discussion on a number of other things that were of particular
ll jand specific interest to the communications intelligence field

l2 |and the clandestine service's responsibilities aspects, if you

13 |}will, and as best I can recall this conversation, this was a

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14 | sort of an axchange of ideas and briefing session, probably

15 | held at the request of Sid Gottlieb in my office shortly after
16 |he either took over a new job in TSD or took over as actual

17 |Chief of TSD, which was the Technical Services Division of the
18 | clandestine services. *

19 Mr. Schwarz. Now the reference in the middle of that
20 ||conversation with Mr. Gottlieb to "Last resort beyond last

21 resort and a confession of weakness." That's referring to

22 ||assassination?

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23 Mr. Harvey. That's obviously referring to assassination.

‘94 |That's probably what I told Sid Gottlieb my opinion’ _on the

£5 | use and propriety of assassination as a technique was.

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of operational philosophy which I expressed to Gottlieb, that

the question then came in pure theory as to -- as in such cases

as, now assumptions, the. example of 3 wrong, I am not really
suré. But the closest that I can come is that the assumptions -

it might be desirable in a purely theoretical discussion and in

my opinion we were wrong. Whether I said that to Gottlieb in

the words that are here, I just don't know.

Mr. Schwarz. Who were the two besides Mr. Trujillo that
make up the examples of 3?

Mr. Harvey. I prasume ~~ I have no idea, but I presume
that the logical candidates at that point would have been
Lumumba and Castro. By. logical candidates, I mean not that
we were considering them in this discussion as logical targets
for assassination, but that these -were sort of the three
people that would come to mind ;if you are going to go into this,
these are three to be considered.

But you will: notice, if I may,.Mr.::Schwarz,. "Framework of

gee on
EF the name of #hé staff

freer ann

ie
Pad
(Seremascinn

Sid's job. " GF
officer who worked for me in Division D at that time.

This “translating machine" was an experimental device,

done’ under +< hoped for development f

interested in, because of the serious translation problem that

So you see this was not a discussion strictly within the

framework of either assassination as a specific, or assassination

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3 56
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4 1 jas a general problem.
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3 2 Mr. Schwarz. Now, the material commencing on handwritten
<
“ : 3 |jpage 4 and commencing in the middle of page 3 of the Ssnator's

4 ||motes, reflects in your judgment the conversation that you had

and it is his notes about that conversation, is

6 [that right ?
2 Mr. Harvey. That is my best guess,

8 It may also, however, include his own thinking. and: so forth:

g |I doubt if it includes -- it certainly would not include any

19 ||Specific discussions, I don't think,,with other officers,

ny

1] || because

ywas under specific instructions not to

12 |discuss this as such with anybody else, at least without clearin

13 it with me first.

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: 14 ' Mr. Schwarz. And he starts, for example, by! talking’ about

15 “Legal, ethical, morale, operational problems" and so forth,

16 ||and that reflects the conversation you had with@iy Rigew?
| 17 Mr. Harvey. Yes, it does.
| 18 Mr. Schwarz. Down toward the end of entry 3b -- and 3 has
3 19 the heading "Maximum security" -~ do you see that on page
:
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2 20 | 4?
£ 2) Mr. Harvey. Yes, I sea it.

5
ui 20 Mr. Schwarz. There is a sentence which reads as follows --
{ r)
é 93 || two sentences, which I should read into the record, three

3 24 ||sentences.

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i 1 |icrossed in this document. |
: 2 Mr. Schwarz. One way or the other?
| 5 3 Mr. Harvey. That's right. One way or the other.
| 4 Mr. Schwarz. Your note has a report to the DCI, the
5 January 26th reference, which reads in the first Line fag.
| 6 m, I taka it?.
7 Mr. Harveys. Yes,.I'm. sure that's [2 5 : Wer «
| 8 Mr. Schwarz. Then it appears to say f-a-n-f-o-r-n DCI
| 9 |matter. What does that mean?
| 10 Mr. Harvey. I am not sure. The closest I could come to
| 11 |ithat is a fairly illogical Fanfani,. and Fanfani. was never
2 12 ;even dreamed of, as far as I know, in any such context.
a
E 13 |Fanforn -~ Burton Wides raised that with me, and I just had to
i 3 :
| 14 |throw up my hands. I just don't know.
| 15 Mr. Schwarz. And you don't know what the reference to DCI
16 |/idn the notes means?
7 Mr. Harvey. No, I am sorry, I do not, at this point, Mr.
18 | Schwarz.
| : 19 Mr. Schwarz. Okay.
3 20 Mr. Harvey. Are you asking “me to try to interpret the
2 .
i 2] | portion of this that is in my handwriting, or are you satisified
i 22 lat this point?
| : 23 Mr. Schwarz. Well, the other items, it seems to me, are
: eq either not -important or are understandable. Maybe some of the
¢
25 Members have questions.

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