[1]187-10002-10150 | 2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992 |
[3]AGENCY :
[4]RECORD NUMBER :
[6]Date:10/05/93
[7]Page:1
[8]JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM
[10]IDENTIFICATION FORM
[12]AGENCY INFORMATION
[14]SSCIA
[15]157-10002-10150
[17]RECORDS SERIES :
[19]TRANSCRIPT
[21]AGENCY FILE NUMBER :
[23]ORIGINATOR :
[25]FROM :
[26]TO:
[28]TITLE :
[29]TESTIMONY OF HOWARD.J. OSBORN
[31]DATE
[32]PAGES
[35]: 96
[37]SUBJECTS :
[39]CIA
[41]GIANCANA, SAM
[42]‘MAHEU, ROBERT
[43]CASTRO ;
[44]ROSELLI, JOHNNY
[45]HARVEY, WILLIAM
[46]PAPICH, SAM
[47]GAMBINO
[49]DOCUMENT TYPE :
[50]CLASSIFICATION :
[51]RESTRICTIONS :
[52]CURRENT STATUS :
[54]DATE OF LAST REVIEW :
[56]PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT
[57]T .
[59]REFERRED
[61]P
[63]09/30/93
[65]OPENING CRITERIA. :
[67]COMMENTS :
[69]Box 255
[70]Folder 8
[72]HY 40955 Dacld: 32281990
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[78]WARD & PAUL
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[86]TESTI
[87]1
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[89]_ Mr. Osborn.
[90]3
[91]4
[92]5 Mr. Wallach.
[93]P Mr. Debelius.
[94]7 Frederick Avenue,
[95]Mr. Wallac h.
[96]8
[97]9
[98]‘10
[99]the Constitution,
[101]remain silent if
[102]12
[103]And in addition,
[104]13
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[106]Mr. Osborn.
[107]15
[108]Mr. Wallach.
[109]16
[110]17
[111]personal counsel
[112]18
[113]; Mr. Osborn.
[114]19
[115]te Mr. Osborn.
[116]20 407
[117]21.
[118]Mr. Osborn.
[119]22
[120]I am.
[121]23
[122]Mr. Wallach.
[123]24
[124]the examination.
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[127]Doclda: 3277619930 Page 2
[129]questions, I would like to ask if Mr. Debelius is here as your
[131]Mr. Debelius' representation for you?
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[135]MONY OF HOWARD J. OSBORN, ACCOMPANIED
[137]BY JOHN W. DEBELIUS, COUNSEL
[139]My name is Howard J. Osborn,}
[141]‘ A224) j
[143]And Counsel, would you just state your name.
[144]The name is John W. Debelius, 570 North
[145]Gaithersburg, Maryland.
[147]Once again, Mr. Osborn, as the Senator told
[149]you, and as you have been told before, you do have the full
[151]spectrum of rights available to you here that you have under
[153]and in particular you do have the right to
[154]you choose to as to any particular question.
[156]you have the right to request that a Senator
[158]be present if you desire that one be here.
[160]Yes.
[162]‘Very briefly, before Mr. Rhea begins his
[164]today?
[166]That is right.
[168]I take it, then that the CIA in no way secured)
[170]I wish they were paying him, but they are not.
[172]I will ask Mr. Rhea to begin his segment of.
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[182]Q\®
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[218]Mr. Osborn. Not to the best of my recollection.
[220]Mr. Rhea. That is all T have. Thank you very much.
[222](Off the record discussion.)
[224]Mr. Wallach. Mr. Osborn, if you would, just very briefly,
[225]on the subject matter that I am going to be directing your
[226]attention to, the mail programs, the various mail programs that
[227]you may have had knowledge of while you were with the CIA, I
[228]would like to have you very briefly trace your career for us
[229]in briefest terms with the Agency.
[231]Mr. Osborn. All right.
[233]I jointed the Agency .on 10 October 1974.
[235]I worked in what was then known as the Office of Collection
[236]and Dissemination, which concerned itself largely with the
[237]collection of any information that had any foreign intelligence
[238]import from other Government departments and agencies such as
[239]the Department of Commerce, the Department of Interior, the
[240]Department of the Treasury, and so forth. It was essentially
[241]a liaison job.
[243]I served there about a year and a half, and I then jointed
[245]the Contact Division of the Office of Operations, which was
[247]concerned with the selection of foreign intelligence information
[248]from American businessmen and private organizations who had
[249]business abroad. ;
[251]I served there until roughly 1950, when I jointed the .
[253]Office of Special Operations 4%,
[255]ei1990 age 3 TOP SECRET
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[306]position for about a year and a half,
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[312]This division, as I recall, was the Plans Staff of the
[313]Foreign Intelligence Division of the Clandestine Services which
[314]is known as the Deputy Director of Plans, DDP.
[316]I was promoted from that position to be Chief of the Plans
[317]Staff.
[319]I served there until 1955, roughly 1955, when I became
[321]Assistant to the Inspector General of the Agency.
[323]I served there until 19 -- correction. I think I joined
[325]the Inspector General's staff in 1954, and I left there in late
[327]I left there in September 1960 to take the position of
[329]Deputy Chief of the. Soviet Russian Division in the Clandestine
[330]Services of the Agency in Washington. I served in that
[331]and then became Chief of
[333]the Soviet Russian Division. And I held that position until
[335]Septemb er of 1963, when I accepted the position of Deputy
[336]Director of the Office of Security of the Agency.
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[350]Mr. Osborn. To the best of my recollection, I believe they
[351]were.
[353]_ Mr. Wallach. Going back just a’step, I take it that you «..
[355]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[356]be
[358]had no knowledge of any mail opening projects while you were
[360]4
[361]5 with the Inspector General's Office in 1954?
[362]6 Mr. Osborn. To the best of my recollection, I don't
[364]believe I was briefed on what was then HT LINGUA ac
[366]Mr. Wallach. I think those just may have been different
[368])
[369]names for the same operation, different divisions.
[370]10 ; . ;
[371], Mr. Osborn. I think they were, yes, different code names.
[373]3 ‘They changed them frequently.
[374]a le
[375]: Mr. Wallach.
[376]a 13
[377]3
[378]ACh)
[380]CY).
[381]Q os
[383]i Mr. Wallach. Did you have knowledge of the military's
[384]16
[385]mail operation over there, mail intercept operation?
[386]17 ;
[387]Mr. Osborn. I may have had, but I can't recall it spe-
[388]18
[389]3 cifically.
[390]& 19 .
[391]g Mr. Wallach. Did you subsequently gain knowledge of that
[393]3 .mail intercept operation?
[394]5 21
[395]= Mr. Osborn. I have heard of it somewhere.
[396]3 22 a 7 |
[397]g Mr. Wallach. What is the nature of the operation that you
[398]: 5 23 .
[399]a g have heard of?
[400]° 24 .
[401]. Mr. Osborn. That the military was intercepting mail. I
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[441]don't know the details.
[443]Mr. Wallach. Have you heard of any arrangements whereby
[445]the German authorities actually provide the mail?
[447]Mr. Osborn. I can't recall that, honestly. I may have,
[448]but I can't recall it specifically.
[450]Mr. Wallach. In other words, would it be fair to say that
[451]you are not familiar with that operation?
[453]Mr. Osborn. I am not familiar at all with it.
[455]Mr. Wallach. As I stated before, we have some documents
[456]here, and there are a couple that I think are relevant. And I
[457]would like you to review them later, but I want to get your
[458]state of recollection now. I realize that it is based on
[459]memory of events years ago, and things you read in the paper.
[460]And in no way am I questioning the truth of your memory.
[462]Mr. Osborn. I understand.
[464]Mr. Wallach. Could you just give us an overview
[466]of your understanding as to how the -- we will call it the
[468]New York intercept, (inaecenm mre HT LINGUAL, whichever name
[469]you want to use, developed in the fifties?
[471]Mr. Osborn. I have no specific knowledge of this. It is
[472]a little unusual, but even considering that this is one of the
[473]things, of course, that we reported to Director Schlesinger,
[474]I don't believe we reported this in any detail as to how it
[475]started, because I am not really sure that any of us knew.
[477]I don't recall exactly how it did start. But it was alsways
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[524]which time I was briefed on this particular operation.
[526]Mr. Wallach. Did you know whether or not the Postmaster
[528]Mr. Osborn.
[530]that he was.
[532]General, the then Postmaster General, I am not sure who it
[533]was in 1964, July, whoever it was in that position, had
[535]knowledge of the fact that mail was opened in New York City?
[537]To the best of my recollection, I never heard
[539]Mr. Wallach. Had you ever heard either way about the
[541]Attorney General, be it Robert Kennedy or any of his
[543]predecessors?
[545]Mr. Osborn.
[547]Not. to the best of my recollection.
[549]Mr. Wallach. When you visited New York on this inspection
[551]trip that you described being possibly with Mr. White, do you
[553]Fawonsni
[555]recall whether or not Mr. Febriwi accompanied you out to the
[557]facility?
[559]Mr. Osborn.
[561]that he did.
[563]Mr. Wallach. Did you actually go out toga
[565]~ JI can't recall specifically, but I am sure
[567]fg during
[569]the last three or four years of my tenure as
[571]Director of Security. Prior to that it was right in the
[573]office.
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[621]ur. Dick. Were you tod that it was illegal?
[623]Mr. OSborn. No. I assumed it was. You don't open mail
[624]in peacetime.
[626]Mr. Wallach. Did the Office of Security also run the
[627]project in Washington (iftere
[629]Mr. Osborn. Not to my knowledge.
[631]Mr. Wallach. Do you have any knowledge of the project? |
[633]arrangements &(asOnee@rtennen
[634]of it. But I feel sure that we did.
[636]Mr. Wallach.
[638]Mr. Osborn. The one I specifically remember was @
[640]a. But I can't
[642]And I am pretty sure it was€
[643]recall the details, I really can't. But I have a recollectio
[644]of this. Ang again, we were doing it just as a mechanism
[646]again. It was the Clendestine Services that had to be calling
[648]the shot of that.
[650]we must have done.
[652]Mr; Osborn. And if we did it Ae
[654]it some other places.
[656]Mr. Wallach. What cooperative arrangement GER@i@euncs
[658]areyou aware of?
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[704]Mr. Osborn. We had totally cooperative arrangement{
[706]Mr. Wallach. With respect to mail?
[707]Mr. Osborn. Anything.
[709]Mr. Wallach. Could you go into that?
[711]Mr. Osborn. I can't recall the details, but. I can recall
[713]that we used to Gigi
[715]Mr. Wallach. I am really just asking, not for techniques
[717]or narcotics or training or things like that we are aware of,
[719]provide in certain situations.
[721]Mr. Osborn. I have a recollection that they did cooperate
[722]with us in this respect. And I am sorry that I can't be more
[723]clear on the details.
[725]oe
[727]Mr. Wallach. Was there a particular point of contact
[729]Mr. Osborn. Yes.
[730]Mr. Wallach. Who was that?
[731]Mr. Osborn. The point of contact that we remember the
[733]Suaanecmbavyemiuens, that I remember.
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[779]to organize my own thoughts. And I would be happy to destroy
[781]Sino see talengand many other departments.
[783]TOP SECRET
[785]Mr. Osborn. He was a Deputy é
[787]He had a very high position GiRGIEn eee
[788]his name. . :
[790]Mr. Wallach. I note your attorney is taking notes. May
[791]I ask if those will be provided to the CIA?
[793]Mr. Debelius. If they will be provided to the CIA it
[795]wouldn't be by me, Mr. Wallach. Really, I am doing it here
[797]them in your presence.
[798]Mr. Wallach. I have absolutely no problem. I was just
[799]wondering if you were going under instructions.
[800]Mr. Debelius. Could we go off the record just a moment?
[801]Mr. Wallach. Surely.
[803](Off the record discussion.)
[805]Mr. Wallach. Do you recall anybody else 4.
[806]the Agency had contact with on a regular basis?
[808]Mr. Osborn. I can't recall any other, but I am sure there
[809]were others. |
[811]Mr. Wallach. Do you recall any generic types of operations
[813]cooperated with?
[815]that iia
[817]Mr. Osborn. No. But to the best of my recollection, there
[819]was very little that we would askii®umhione
[821]mooeoreucs ~The same is true of Gifmemcms
[823]Mr. Dick. Are you familiar with Qijseieumomenatoncmmer
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[879]operations that terminated in the mid-sixties that involved
[881]from other countries to the US?
[883]gopagamds,
[885]siinterceptions Gig
[886]Mr. Osborn. I seem to have heard of this, but I can't ="
[888]recall it specifically. It sounds familiar to me.
[890]22
[892]Mr. Dick. Do you recall whether in any of thos@M@n@ietts
[894]programs the CIA might have received ieaieieE
[896]Mr. Osborn. Not specifically. And I can clarify one
[898]thing for you now. On this Dulles thing, I am sorry. It was
[900]in the same context.of my discussion with you -- if you ask
[901]me specifically if I knew, I would say no, but I seem to
[903]recall that they did cooperate with us in the matter of
[905]Bclipsontmtemoouenes.. I can't remember a specific instance,
[907]but I recall this.
[908]Mr. Dick. Is that the extent of your recollection?
[910]Mr. Osborn. Yes, really. But this (%
[912]rings a loud bell in my mind.
[914]Mr. Wallach. Aside from the mail opening projects which
[915]have publically come to light in recent months -- and I will
[916]go through them very briefly now -- there were the San ‘eo...
[917]Francisco project, which was repeated two or three times, the
[919]project in New Orleans which you have mentioned before in the
[921]sosi900 oaye di | Top SECRET |
[923]dni4 a , :
[924]| TOP SECRET 8
[925]3 1 Communist China from San Francisco.
[926]é ; I said, does Mr. Karamessines approve this?
[927]: _ whey said,ves.
[928]ra 3
[929]5 4 I said, does Mr. Helms approve it -- and they
[930]5 said, we can assume that Mr. Karamessines has got Mr. Helms!
[931]6 approval.
[932]7 And I said, I can't assume it. I will have to get it
[933]3 from him directly.
[934]9 And I did. I sent one of my fellows, a senior fellow
[935]10 named Jack Turton. I made arrangements through Mr. Cotter
[936]an | “believe, to send him out to San Francisco to talk to ©
[937]- the Chief Postal Inspector in San Francisco, and I believe
[938]2 “43 they set.it up so that representatives of the Far Fast
[940]i aa Division and the Technical Services Division, not the security
[941]1s people -- I can't recall, but I believe that they were to pose
[942]6 as Postal Inspectors, with access of certain categories of
[943]mail from Communist China to this country, for the purpose of
[944]wots te photographing exteriors, examining it for possible eviddnce
[945]Ook 19 of censorship,--but I did not know that they were going to open
[946]: 920 it, I had novidéa they opened the mail. And I found out
[947]3 ot socially and personally from one of the people involved about
[949]Z a year ago that they opened the mail.
[950]z 22
[951]2 93 Mr, Wallach. Who was that from?
[952]: ; Mr. Osborn. ‘A friend ofmine whowas involved,
[953]i ms who is retired from the Agency, a fellow by the name of Rod] J
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[970]a 2 Mr. Wallach. Was Mr. Giger actually involved in the
[971]i=]
[973]N
[975]s - operation?
[977]< 3
[979]i 4 Mr. Osborn. Yes, he was a part of it.
[981]Mr. Wallach. Do you know Mr .qNENeweie
[983]2,
[985]mn
[987]“oH
[988]Re %
[989](o>)
[991]Re
[993]Mr. Osborn. I am sure there was one, but I never met
[995]anybody named@Mbatenews
[997]2
[998]8 Mr. Wallach. Are you saying, Mr. Osborn, that the
[999]9 operation you received approval from Mr. Helms for was not
[1000]“40 a mail opening operation? © | ~
[1001]11 Mr. Osborn. That is right. It was a mail cover. - =
[1002]; 12 operation.
[1003]c 13 Mr. Wallach. Would it be fair to say, then, that in
[1004]‘ 14 gaining that approval from you you were actually misled?
[1005]15 Mr. Osborn. Yes, indeed -- I wasn't misled, but per-
[1006]16 haps it seemed when I got out there and found out how easy
[1007]Wy it was to get it -- but I don't know, I wasn't told that
[1008]is they were to open mail. That isn't the circumstances
[1009]19 under which I briefed Mr. Helms.
[1010]: 20 | Mr. Wallach. Did you discuss this project with Mr.
[1011]J ;
[1012]F 21 Cotter? .
[1013]§ 22 Mr. Osborn. Yes, I discussed it with him, I think, in
[1015]: 23 arranging the original meeting with Mr. Turton. I don't know
[1016]EB 24 whether Mr. Turton went over and .talked to Mr. Cotter directly,
[1017]: 95 or whether Mr. Cotter just made the entre with the San Francisdo
[1018]3
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[1065]In other words, I am sure they didn't go to Mr. Cotter
[1066]every time they wanted something on a day-to-day relationship.
[1068]Mr. Wallach. I have just given Mr. Osborn a copy of
[1069]a memorandum dated December 24, 1974, which is in fact after
[1070]the time he left on sick leave, and: there is no reason to
[1071]believe that he was seen it. I would just like him to re-
[1072]view it and possibly refresh his recollection.
[1074]Off the record.
[1076](Discussion off the record.)
[1080]Mr. WAllach. Back on the record. ™
[1082]cod
[1084]5 oa
[1087]I think I misspoke when I gave Mr. Osborn a memo. It
[1088]is a three-page undated memo captioned "Project West Pointer."
[1089]I believe it was recently prepared. |
[1091]But in any event I would like to call your attention
[1093]to the last paragraph on the third page which states:
[1095]"The main difference between EREUMT IE DPand West Pointer
[1096]is that the file shows specific reference to a statement by |
[1097]the Postal authorities that mail not to go out of Post Office
[1098]control. While mail was opened and photographed by Agency
[1100]personnel in New York City under «Rm
[1102]> and not specific
[1103]post office approval was given, neither is there written order
[1104]not to do so. In West Pointer the opening of mail was
[1105]contrary to specific orders that mail was not to out of post
[1106]office control."
[1108]Mr. Osborn. There you are.
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[1158]Mr. Wallach. . Is that also your understanding, really?
[1159]Mr. Osborn. Yes, very definitely.. This fellow who is
[1160]a close friend of mine -- and I don't want to necessarily put
[1161]him on the spot, but he is retired. and is in Florida --
[1162]came back and spent time with me at my home. And at one
[1163]juncture, discussing such things as now, the senate and the
[1164]House, and what is going to happen, he said, well, you know ,
[1165]you remember that West Coast operation.
[1167]And ft said, yes.
[1169]And he said, you didn't know we opened the mail,
[1171]weg id
[1173]did you?
[1174]And I said, no, I didn't know you opened the mail.
[1176]That was the first time I ever heard they opened it.
[1178]Mr. Dick. Are you referring to Mr. @@
[1179]Mr. Osborn. Yes.
[1181]Mr. Dick. What division was Mr.
[1183]Mr. Osborn.
[1185]Mr. Wallach. I take it by your actions -- this might
[1186]be speculation, and if you don't want to answér, feel free
[1187]not to.
[1189]Mr. Osborn. If I do, I will establish that it is
[1190]speculation.
[1192]Mr. Wallach. You would not have approved the West
[1193]Coast operation if you knew it involved mail opening?
[1195]Mr. Osborn. I would not. -have approved it -- the
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[1229]Director might have approved it, but.it wasn't the way
[1230]I briefed it, and it wasn't my understanding with Mr. Cotter.
[1231]Mr. Wallach. In other words, you did give Mr. Cotter
[1232]assurance that this was only a mail cover type of operation?
[1233]Mr. Osborn. That was the understanding I had with Mr.
[1234]Cotter, to the best of my recollection.
[1235]Mr. Wallach. Have you subsequently discussed the
[1236]West Coast operation with Mr. Cotter? |
[1237]Mr. Osborn. Yes, I have. Since I am under oath,
[1239]I had lunch with Bill Cotter and Marv Gentile on Tuesday of
[1243]this week, and we naturally discussed this stuff. We went
[1244]over the fact that he recalled me, and that both of us were
[1245]instrumental in terminating the New York project. And I have
[1246]forgotten the exact context, but the San Francisco thing
[1248]came up. And I told him, I didn't even know the mail was
[1250]being opened until I talked to Rerauaen4
[1252]He said, you didn't?
[1254]And I said, no.
[1256]He said, well, it was. He said, I just found out about
[1257]it. I presume through testimony or something.
[1259]But that was the essence of my discussion.
[1261]Mr. Wallach. . Did Mr, Cotter talk to you about any
[1262]FBI mail opening projects?
[1264]Mr. Osborn. No, he did not. We were’in a public res-
[1266]taurant. We doubletalked.
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[1271]3 1 you have any knowledge of it?
[1272]x 2 Mr. Osborn. The first time I ever saw the Huston Plan
[1273]: 5 was in the newspapers.
[1274]i 4 Mr. Wallach. Didn't Mr. Helms know that mail was being
[1275]5 opened in New York in 1971?
[1276]P Mr. Osborn. Of course he did.
[1277]7 Mr. Wallach. Did you know why Mr. Helms would have asked
[1278]3 the President for authority to open mail in 1971, then?
[1279]9 Mr. Osborn. I have no idea.”
[1280]10 Mr. Wallach. Calling your attention to a memorandum dated
[1281]uu February 16, 1973, captioned "Visit to Headquarters re SRE
[1282]1p BQENGEE ,” I will ask you to quickly read that over.
[1283]2 Mr. Osborn. I must have been Iden 18°
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[1285]: 14 Mr. Wallach. The first question would be, do you recall
[1286]1s a Meeting in your office at which you notified Mr. Issaeff
[1287]16 that the project would be terminated? |
[1288]Lo Mr. Osborn. I don't think I dealt with Issaeff. I think
[1289]18 “I would have dealt with one of my people. But it could have
[1290]19 been Issaeff. I don't know. I remember suspending it..
[1291]: 90 |: Mr. Wallach. And do you remember telling Mr. Issaeff in
[1292]: 9 words or substance that he should not tell anyone on the CI
[1293]: * Staff that you wanted to tell the Director of the CIA Staff
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[1297]5 Mr. Osborn. I very probably would have. I had very close
[1298]i - relationships with Jim Angleton professionally.
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[1360]memorandum from Chief, CI."
[1362]Mr. Wallach. Calling your attention to the first page,
[1363]you stated this is Mr. Angleton's handwriting?
[1365]Mr. Osborn. Yes.
[1367]Mr. Wallach. I realize that most of it is illegible but
[1368]I ask if you can read the line that begins with Osborn.
[1370]Mr. Osborn. "Osborn said he was under instructions from
[1371]Colby to the effect that no pressure should bé put on Cotter."
[1373]Mr. Wallach. Do you recall discussing that with Mr.
[1375]Colby or Mr. Angleton?
[1377]Mr. Osborn. No. But I do remember talking to Bill Colby
[1378]about the position that Cotter was in, and he was always
[1379]extremely sympathetic. And I don't know what pressure anybody
[1380]could put on Cotter.
[1382]Mr. Wallach. I believe you briefly touched on this before.
[1383]How was the operation actually terminated?
[1385]Mr. Osborn. I called in Stan Ense, I believe, who was
[1387]then Deputy Director of Security for Investigations and
[1389]Operational Support, and I said@Sn@peminger’ is terminated as
[1390]of now. I think it was in the early afternoon. And that was
[1391]the end of it.
[1393]Mr. Wallach. In other words, it was then Mr. Colby under
[1394]Schlesinger who terminated it?
[1396]Mr. Osborn. Yes.
[1398]Mr. Wallach. And I take it --
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