[1]157-10011-10024) | 2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992 |
[3]JFK Assassination System Date: 7/30/201
[5]Identification Form
[7]AGENCY: SSCIA
[8]RECORD NUMBER: — 157-10011-10024
[9]RECORD SERIES: TRANSCRIPT
[10]AGENCY FILE NUMBER :
[11]Document Information
[12]ORIGINATOR:  SSCIA
[13]FROM: COLBY, WILLIAM E.
[14]TO:
[15]TITLE: SSCI TRANSCRIPT, TESTIMONY OF DCI WILLIAM COLBY .
[16]DATE: 05/21/1975
[17]PAGES: 113
[18]SUBJECTS :
[19]: CASTRO
[20]SSCI TRANSCRIPT, TESTIMONY OF DC] WILLIAM COLBY
[21]OPERATION MONGOOSE
[22]CUBA
[23]DOCUMENT TYPE: PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT.
[24]CLASSIFICATION : — Unclassified
[25]RESTRICTIONS : — Consulted; 1B; Donor Restricted
[26]CURRENT STATUS:  Redact
[27]DATE OF LASTREVIEW: 05/04/1994
[28]OPENING CRITERIA :
[29]COMMENTS : SSC] Box 239, Folder 14
[32]HY 50955 Doactd: 32203792
[34]Agency Information
[36]Page 1
[38]/57 - 100 1/
[39]/00R f
[41]{ Vol. 2
[43]® he United States Senate \
[44]é a By Ril 9
[46]recess
[47]Ca
[48]~S
[49]CD
[51]oo
[52]pola
[55]~ 4 of eel
[56]CIA HAS NO OBJECTION TO oo on Sav
[57]DECLASSIFICATION AND/OR ey a
[58]RELEASE OF THIS DOCUMENT ; °
[59]AS SANITIZED Report of Proceedings soustiegia ees
[61]Be 4 [ley
[63]Hearing held before
[64]Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations
[66]with Respect to Intelligence Activities ;
[68]~ Record Number 157-10011-10024 —
[70]PY COMMITTEE HEARING
[72]SSCI Box 239, Folder 14
[74]Wednesday, May 21, 1975
[76]Washington, D. C.
[78](Stenotype Tape and Waste turned over
[79]to the Committee for destruction)
[81]WARD & PAUL
[83]410 FIRST STREET, S. E.
[84]WASHINGTON, D. C. 20003
[87]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[88]tv)
[90]10
[92]11
[94]le
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[100]WARD & PAUL
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[116]410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
[118]- sais, "of the evidence available". And this is the evidence |
[120]20,
[122](23
[124]iY O2uNNei 30
[126]the first man contacted by Mr. Maheu, worked through a
[127]Cuban exile leader. And he offered -- and he said that he
[128]could do something of this nature provided he got some funds
[129]and the assistance. And he was supported in this regard.
[130]and I think again we have some doubts as to the accuracy of
[131]his reporting.
[133]Mr. Schwarz. | In November 1961 did Mr. Bissell indstruct
[134]a William Harvey to take charge of the gambling syndicate |
[135]operation designed to kill Fidel Castro? Page 3 of Mr. Greer's|
[136]report, which is at the beginning of your report.
[138]Mr. Colby. I believe so, yes.
[140]Yes. That is what our evidence says, the summary
[142]available in 1963. And there have been some minor changes in
[143]some of the details of this summary , very minor changes.
[144]But the essence of this report is still roughly accurate, I
[145]believe. .
[147]Mr. Schwarz. Mr. Harvey -- was Mr. Harvey the man that
[149]had hired an agent in order to kill Lmumba?
[151]Mr. Colby. Mr. Harvey was the head of Staff D, Staff
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[155]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
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[164]WARD & PAUL
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[173]al
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[179]410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003
[181]25
[183]hace fox that pucposp And there are some very obscure
[185]a “Gar & FP LH “ER HA SS
[187]Ab) ; 31
[189]sor and in the process, you obviously work up
[190]U
[192]some people who are able to do this kind of work, which is
[193]quite different from the normal life style of most of. us.
[195]Mr. Harvey had been a very venturesome officer in the
[196]past. He was responsible for the Berlin tunnel.. And he was
[197]sent down to take this job. And he assumed as part of it the
[198]capability of -- he was given by Mr. Bissel this chore of
[200]carrying on this particular operation as well.
[202]Mr. Schwarz. Had he been the person who had, in
[203]connection with the abortive effort to kill Mr. Lmumba,
[204]hired an agent for that purpose?
[206]Mr. Colby. I have forgotten whether hehired him. He t (BY
[208]io Rm ra Cee SOD. Wee eae
[209]4, lnc ne o_o ee ee Nes a
[211]ands te.
[212]references that an additional assignment was to look into the
[213]possible assassination of Mr. Lmumba. The evidence is
[215]that he went down to what is now Kinshasa, Elizabethville in
[217]1960, stayed there a few weeks, and left in October, I
[219]believe. And then Mr, Lmumba was killed thereafter in a totally
[220]‘separate set of circumstances in which we had nothing te do.
[221]There is some indication that a CIA officer who was asked
[223]to have something to do with this particular job said he did
[225]not want to do it.
[227]7
[229]a
[230]Ba
[232]BE oe
[234]O
[236]i
[237]|
[238]CRET :
[240]BW 50955 Docld: 32203792 Page 5
[242]me oe or sed TE
[244]3 l was not advised of the assassination activities. Quite likely
[248]< .
[250]pa 2 -I cannot say that for sure, but I know the compartmentation
[252]c] .
[254]Ot
[256]Ee: 3 system was such.
[258]F 4 Chairman Church. What was the name of the CIA agent who
[259]5 was given the responsibility for liaison between the CIA and
[260]6 the Warren Commission?
[261]” Mr. Colby. To my knowledge it is Mr. Raymond Rocca.
[262]8 Chairman Church. Where is it now?
[263]9 ; Mr. Colby. He retired at the end of December of last year.
[264]10 He remained working for us for a few months. ‘I think he is
[265]1 retired. I think he is retired. I believe he is still in
[267]: 12 the Washington area.
[269]3 | :
[271]x 13 Mr. Knoche. Yes, he is still working with us.
[273]- :
[275]a ; . .
[277]@: 14 Mr. Colby. Still working with us to help on the transi-
[278]3
[279]. 15 tion of the whole counter intelligence program.
[281]16 Chairman Church. Why did he retire?
[282]WW Mr. Colby. That was the Angleton case, Mr. Chairman, and
[283]18 the facts of that case were that I had had some professicnal
[284]19 differences in_thé organization with Mr. Angleton as to the
[286]8 20 way the counterintelligence business was run
[288]: |
[290]s 21
[294]Fy 22
[296]u 23 Directorate and of the Agency. We had debated this on various
[298]5 24 occasions in the past. I did reorganize that staff in 1973 an
[300]3 25 took a number of functions away from it. The liaison with the
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[360]z Pas
[361]2
[365]our other divisions. We debated this and discussed it and fT
[367]= er om we eo wee aoe
[369]PBL for instance, and a couple of other things.
[371]Also, I believed that there was a undue degree of compart
[373]mentation of that staff, that it needed more interchange with
[375]set as my time limit for this discussion the end of Decemher
[377]because there were some very substantial retirement benefits
[379]Thay
[381]that people would loose if they stayed after that point.
[383]us
[385]unfortunately the Seymour Hirsh article of December 22nd came
[387]Ki
[389]to our attention before it was actually published, and sc
[391]. brought Mr. Angleton up and said that I was going to make
[393]into the Head of the Counterintelligence Staff. I said I woul
[395]offer him a post of tying together some counterintelligence
[397]doctrine, he could stay working with us. He did not have te |
[400]Pay ty GIB rcs
[401]FOP SECRE
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[405]Phone (Aréa 202) 544-6000
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[412]'
[413]WARD & PAUL
[414]WH
[415]tH
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[418]15
[419]16
[420]1?
[421]18
[423]19
[425]410 First Street, S.E4 Washington, 0.C, 20003
[426]Aw]
[429]Chinese Communists subsequently blamed the Chiness Nationalists
[431]and ths
[433]4
[435]US for sabotaging the aircraft. The aircraft employes
[437]|
[438]|
[439]had fled to Taiwan. Ne had nothing to do with that incident |
[440]and frankly heard about it after it occurred. ’ |
[441]In the fall of 1956, a senior Chinese Nationalist ueciotal
[442]informed an officer of CIA that a Chinese National pianned tc |
[443]assassinate Chou En Lai during his visit to Cambodia in - |
[444]November '56 and had been thwarted by the Cambodian arrest ot |
[445]|
[447]the Chinese Nationalist cfficer sent to Fhnom Penh to supervise
[448]1
[450]the attempt. We learned of this after it had happened and we
[452]had nothing te do with it.
[454]These are two that ware separate.
[456]Alsce I was asked to look at the photographs of Howard nant
[458]and Sturgis that appsared in Newsweek some years ago. We
[460]obtained this photograph from the FBI last night about 5 oteleckl.
[462]We had not had it before. We had a copy of the Newsweek
[464]edition. ,
[465]These are photegraohs of Howard Hunt in 1949, 1950 and
[467]L
[469]$61. This is the only photograph we have of Mr. Sturgis.
[470]It is taken out of the Newsweek.
[472]We nave had ne connection with Mr. Sturgis and so we have
[474](HW 50955 Docld:32203792 Page 6
[476]= Er See es ee
[478]8 - | individuals in ik.
[479]3 +
[481]8 2 | Senator Schweiker. Did you get the other photograph, the
[482]a
[483]o
[484]nN .
[485]g 5 supposed Oswald photograph leaving the Embassy?
[486]3 a Mr. Colby. I don't have that with me. It ig in the
[487]z
[488]| toe . os
[489]5 _ Warren Commission published report. It is in there.
[490]6 Senator Schweiker. It is in there?
[491]9 Mr. Colby. Yes. It was cropped slightly in order to
[492]8 conceal where it was taken but it was --
[493]9: Senator Schweiker. It is in the Warren Commission?
[494]10 Mr. Colby. Yes, it is in the Warren Commission.
[495]7 Just one additional matter.
[496]Chairman Church. Just one thing I would like to say to
[497]: 12
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[500]re)
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[506]Mr. Colby. Right.
[507]18 .
[508]Chairman Church. And I think you should prepara to
[509]" 19
[510]2 :
[511]3 discuss it with us and we will have further questions to ask.
[512]3 20
[513]* 8 you in connection with it.
[514]g 21
[515]a
[516]= I. just wanted to give you notice.
[517]= 22
[518]a Mr. Colby. Right. In our lexicon it doesn't count as a
[519]= 23
[520]Bs covert action but that is all right, neo problem, I will cover
[521]s 24 | :
[522]s | it.
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[587]HW 50955 Bocid
[589]‘TOP SECRET = 9°
[591]them.
[593]Mr. Harvey was given the resvonsibility of this by Mr
[594]Bissel and originally it continued as a Separate action from
[595]the Castro operation, but Mr. Harvey was also given that
[596]vesponsibility, and for all intents and purposes thay becema
[597]weddsd.
[599]Mr. Helms was the person who formally approved 2R Rifle
[601]as a project. ZR Rifle had a dual purpose that has not seen
[603]clarified by our inquiry. It apparently was in fact used for
[605]the stated purposes, as far as organizational activities went
[607]Mr. Healms,.when hz
[611]approved the project, authorized accounting on certif
[613]which meant that rather than the usual vouchers supporticg
[618]expenditures, that the officer involved would simply certify
[620]Qu
[621]or
[623]hat the monsay ha
[625]2
[627]3
[629]n spent and this would be accepted.
[634]da project amount of soma dollars, $7509 ~ $19,099 --
[636]some of it to include the salary of an adant, some to includs
[638]Rifl
[639]familiar with the Castro operation.
[640]Me. Schwarz. Bscausea of the dual purpose of Rifle, Rifl
[641]means both, rifle files anid used rifles?
[642]Mr
[644]Mx.
[646]:32203792 Page 10 ; some
[648]io
[650]ir
[653]2 Ss 63
[654]molt. 5 | ‘TOP SECREI
[655]Thomas j
[656]. . a |
[657]3 1 Mr. Schwarz. November 1961?
[659]vt
[660]1S 2 | Mr. Breckinridge. I think that is probablv correct. It.
[661]ini .
[662]z 3 was in the fall of 1961 that Mr. Harvey was given this assignment
[663]g a
[664]é 4 by Mr. Bissel. I think Mr. Bisse: left in 1962. I am not sure
[666]as) of the dates, So Mr. Bissel would have known at that time.
[668]6 But I am not sure after that.
[670]. 9 Chairman Church. Helms succeeded Mr. Bissel as chief
[672]8 of operations?
[674]9 Mr. Colby. Deputy Director of Plans. |
[675]10 Chairman Church. Deputy Director for Plans. |
[676]Ll Your record shows that Helms had knowledge of the ZR Rifle |
[677]a 12 | operation, which, among other things, was to develop an onscutiy
[678]z | | |
[679]is 13 | capability -- whatever that means. Presumably that means a |
[680]a ; : _ |
[681]tag : . . te . : : |
[682]é 14 | capability to conduct an assassination if and when authorized |
[683]15 || by proper authority? |
[684]16 Mr. Breckinridge. That is my understanding. |
[685]17 | Chairman Church. Is that your understanding? |
[686]18 Mr. Breckinridge. Yes, sir. |
[687]. . . . . {
[688]19 | Chairman Church. Do your records show that, or is that _ |
[689]a “99 | based upon what has been revealed through your interrogation?
[690]G 2 |
[691]a} . . i
[692]g 21 ; Mr. Breckinridge. First, let me go back and clarify, then |
[693]3 | |
[694]§ pg || t will answer this question, if I may. |
[695]d | |
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[700]bat
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[707]smn l
[709]Thomas t. 7
[711]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[713]WARD & PAUL
[715]HY 40955
[717]410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003
[719]il.
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[735]| a multi-purpose operation emer
[737]‘executive action.
[739]90
[741]Chairman Church. Senator Hart.
[743]ZR Rifle, I think you testified or your associate said this was
[745])
[747]|
[749]Senator Hart of Colorado. Mr.. Colby, in connection with |
[750]1
[752]i
[754]Swafand the |
[756]development of the capability of what euphemistically is called
[758]In your professional judgment, and with your history of
[760]your background in the Agency, does it make any sense to you that
[762]i
[763]i
[765]a major operation, a major intelligence gathering weston
[767]oncmccry would be mounted under the direction of a man
[769]Eaerceeere
[771]‘gorse
[772]about whom all I know is that Mr. Harvey has a packcround of
[773]something like a soldier of fortune, and funded at the level,
[774]1 should say, of $7500 to $10,000?
[776], ling" Cotes ware in Af
[778]fact an internal cover for what was explicitly an assassination
[780]Does it not suggest to you that Asean
[782]operation with unlimited, non-voucher financial capability?
[784]Mr. Colby. No, not that it is purely a cover.
[785]In the first place, Mr. Harvey had a very successful tour
[786]in Berlin where he ran the Berlin tunnel operation, which was
[788]one of our major successful intelligence operations.
[790]anne en ner
[792]Mr. Harvey was a very colorful figure who had his lifestyle,
[794]which is different than some others, but he had been very
[796]Bocld: 3272703732 Page 12
[800]TOP SE:
[802]a 91
[804]|He was in the assignment of Chief of the FI Division staff.
[806]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[808]: Cn
[809]id
[811]Now, the thing that puts it together with this "capability",
[813]9 llexecutive action, is the high degree of compartmentation of
[814]|
[815]|
[817]2
[818]z
[819]Ps
[820]a
[821]Q
[822]ba
[824]|
[825]15 || the work of that particular group.
[826]16 ‘You also are dealing with some very venturesome people
[828]19 So, given you have a man who had some geod technical
[829]so |experience, who is a venturesome type himself and is running a
[830]21 | program which is not too far off the reguivements of high
[832]. “. qc
[834]22 | -- savtmentation, and a very hich risk kind of cperation, and
[835]| .
[839]93 | therefore, for Nr. Bissei to have
[842]oo
[844]410 First Stroat, $.E., Washington, G.C. 20003
[846]fav)
[847]ma)
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[851]E
[853]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[856]nue)
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[858]12
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[862]WARD & PAUL,
[864]14
[866]410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C, 20063
[867]rav]
[868]raw)
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[874]TOP SECRET
[876]as well as this other activity.
[878]Now, in the lifestyle at the time,
[880]one, this gets back into the recordkeeping
[881]discussing.
[882]done.
[883]but to say that [Gnley
[885]probably an unwarranted conclusion.
[887]Senator Hart of Colorado.
[891]operation. In other words,
[893]Staff officers,
[895]the figure one way or the other.
[897]rn a staff
[898]| This might not have been the only such
[899]i
[901]asSaSSination: project
[902]too,
[904]|
[905]|
[906]I
[907]|
[908]jan
[909]|
[910]|
[911]| Sen Absolutely.
[913]ator Hart of Colorado.
[915]Mr. Colby. I find it hard to say that
[917]mount of money invelved. I think you set
[919]where additional money would be put into ei
[921]wre ye Sa com PIT) ys oe
[924]l.
[926]| ah
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[932]That is a perfectly proper hypothesis,
[934]92
[936]not mentioning the second
[938]that we have been
[940]It was not to be put on the record although to he
[942]it seems to me,
[944]What about the level of funding
[946]I think it is too
[948]it is
[950]Mr. Colby. . That is not very much money for that kind of
[951]an operation.
[953]Senator Hart of Colorado... Precisely.
[954]Little.
[955]| Mr. Colby. No. For a capability of that nature,
[957]you use your own
[959]You may hire an acent or something, but I don't
[961]think you can draw much conclusion from the actual number on
[963]project.
[965]would cost you more money than tnat,
[967]that is the only
[968]inte a situaticn
[970]ther of those kinds
[972]“You know,
[975]Q
[976]“
[977]ty
[978]N
[980]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[981]Av) nad
[983]TOP SECRET 89
[985]Chairman Church. Before you do, would you just explain
[987]tween CIA and Giancana ard
[991]exactly what the relationship b
[993]Mahesu was because that is not clear in my mind.
[995]Gl
[997]Woutd you daveloo for the Committss that whols relationshin
[999]Mr. Breckinridge. Robert Mahau used to work for tbs
[1001]FBI and he resigned from the FBI and opensd a privat
[1005]investiga-
[1007]tb
[1009]tive firm hers in Washington and CIA used him from time to
[1011]tims for csrtein kinds of Suppa
[1013]ry
[1014]cr
[1015]pi
[1016]0
[1018]be
[1019]a
[1020]pee
[1021]it
[1022]I
[1025]e
[1027]Chairman Church. ‘hat kind cf sunport activities?
[1029]10 ts : . . os
[1030]ir. Breckinridge. Oa ona occasion he obtained a famala
[1032]11) companion ES
[1034]12
[1036]Chairnma
[1038]15 Mr. Breckinridge. In the earlv days -- and this bacomes
[1040]WARD & PAUL
[1042]14
[1044]15
[1046]who knaw him decidad to put him on €@ retainer in the Office
[1048]16
[1050]a
[1052]a
[1054]of Security, which they did for awhils, until hse was 509
[1056]i” successful he said he no longsar nesded the retainer, which hs
[1058]18
[1060]didn't de much to earn. He latar got involved rseprssacting
[1062]an embarrassment. As nearly as I can reconstruct, the peonls
[1063]10 |
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[1066]el
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[1071]i
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[1090]Game gms pase
[1092]Ue os Ok to
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[1100]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[1102]WARD & PAUL
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[1150]Mr. Schwarz. I would like to pick up on the discussion
[1152]Chairman Church. Mr. Schwarz has five minutes more, and
[1153]we will c.nclude, and I would lik: to ask the Committee <6 stay
[1154]on for ten more minutes for an executive session.
[1156]Mr. Schwarz. In the discussion we had on the use of
[1158]criminal elements, we have dealt with the Castro operation.
[1160]In the middle of the book sipplied to us by Mr. Breckinridge |
[1162]earlier this week, there is a discussion about the Lumumba
[1163]operation, and the Agent Q. J. Win.
[1165]Now, is it a fact that Q. 3. Win was the agent, or asset,
[1166]however you would refer to him, who apparently was considered
[1168]for the effort to assassinate Lumumba, which never tock place;
[1170]f.is that right?
[1172].. Mr. Colby. Yes, sir.
[1174]Mr. Schwarz. Now, is it accurate that Q. J. Win operated
[1176]Mr. Colby. This is what is reported, and it is quite
[1177]possible,
[1179]Mr, Breckinridge. ‘the record indicates that.
[1181]Mr. Schwarz. And is it further so that one of the CIA
[1183]officers who first met Q. J. Winfe
[1185]Mr. Colby. Yes, that is what it says.
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