[1]157-10002-10165).._
[4]af ‘ Page:1
[5]i JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM
[7]IDENTIFICATION FORM
[9]AGENCY INFORMATION
[11]AGENCY : SSCIA
[12]RECORD NUMBER : 157-10002-10165
[14]RECORDS SERIES :
[15]TRANSCRIPT
[17]AGENCY FILE. NUMBER R-696
[19]ORIGINATOR : SSCIA
[20]FROM :
[21]TO:
[23]TITLE : |
[24]TESTIMONY OF DAVID ATLEE PHILLIPS |
[26]DATE : 07/31/75
[27]PAGES : 178
[29]SUBJECTS ;
[31]ao git Lait
[33]CIA
[35]CUBA
[37]CASTRO
[39]LANSKY, MEYER
[41]BAY OF PIGS
[42]ASSASSINATION
[43]TRAFFICANTE, SANTOS
[44]RUBY, JACK
[46]CHILE
[48]ALLENDE
[49]OPERATION MONGOOSE
[51]DOCUMENT TYPE : FAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT
[53]CLASSIFICATION : en
[56]CURRENT STATUS. :
[58]DATE OF LAST REVE
[60]OPENING CRITER
[62]COMMENTS :
[63]Box 256
[64]Folder 14
[66]([R] - ITEM 1S RESTRICTED
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[70]| 2025 RELEASE | UNDER THE PRESIDENT. JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992 |. seme he
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[76]2 1 Mr. Phillips. I did not.
[77]3
[78]3 2 Mr. Schwarz. Did you know Jack Ruby?
[79]E 3 Mr. Phillips. No, I did not.
[80]4 Mr. Schwarz. Do youknow him under the name of Ruben-
[81]5 stein?
[82]6 Mr. Phillips. I did not.
[83]7 Mr. Schwarz. What did you do between your work in Cuba
[84]8 | and the Chile matter which you weré going. to: spend most of your
[85]9 time on?
[86]10 | Mr. Phillips. After the Bay of Pigs business I went to
[87]ll || Mexico in late in 1961, and remained in Mexico until the very
[88]J
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[93]14 Mr. Schwarz. And then --
[94]15 Mr. Phillips. I stayed in the Dominican Republic until
[95]16 | the summer of 1967. 2
[97]1? “. And after that I returned to Washington and became
[99]18 the Chief of Cuban Operations through 1969.
[101]19 In 1970 I went to Rio de Janierofaemoeativon Cl And
[103]20 in 1971, I suffered the traumatic shock of being moved to
[105]21] || Brasilia from Rio de Janiero. ef
[106]Pisses,
[108]22 In 1972 I went to Venezuelatast!
[109]23 || And in the summer of 1973 I was asked to return as Chief of
[111]24 | the then Western Hemisphere Division.
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[115]25 Mr. Schwarz. And is that the position you held until
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[163]or the other which would enable you to form a judgment as
[164]to his attitude toward either the subject of assassination or
[165]the question as to what kind of an explicit order would be
[166]necessary in order to justify Agency actions to actually
[167]assassinate some one.
[169]Mr. Phillips. No, because I never heard Mr. Helms even
[170]get that close to the edge of such talk about such and such an
[171]option or possibility, I never heard him talk that way.
[173]Mr. Schwarz. Did you ever hear anybody in the Agency
[174]talk that way? |
[176]Mr. Phillips. Under traumatic conditions I have heard
[177]human beings maybe with a few drinks or something like that
[178]saying, my God, we would be better off if so and so were
[179]bumped off or something.
[181]But I have never heard two officers sit down and
[182]seriously talk about such an option. And if anyone has ever r
[183]said that, it is the same way some people might get out of line
[184]and say almost anything.
[186]Mr. Schwarz. Did you ever hear, in connection with
[188]the Chile operation, that certain Chilean officers, specifi-~
[190]cally a Major Marshall ewer tJthat they intended
[191]to assassinate Allende?
[192]Mr. Phillips. It was five years ago. But as I recall,
[194]Major Marshall said a number of things. He was what I think
[196]of as a wild man. I seem to recall something about, yes, a
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[247]Mr. Schwarz. And you offered through{Colonel wimerw,
[248]whom we will come to in a moment, $50,000 if they could
[249]accomplish it, didn't you?
[251]Mr. Phillips. I think that was the correct sum, yes.
[253]mr. Schwarz. And you gave them prior to their attempt
[254]on the 19th of October some tear gas and some gas masks to
[255]help accomplish the kidnapping?
[257]Mr. Phillips. That is true.
[259]Mr. Schwarz. And subsequently you provided to the Val-
[260]enzuela group some machine guns, didn't you?
[262]Mr. Phillips. That is ture.
[264]Mr. Schwarz. And those were going to be used in a
[265]kidnapping effort by the Valenzuela group, and you knew that,
[268]Mr. Phillips. I recall that they were going: to be
[269]used by’the group, and that kidnapping was a part of their
[270]plans. I can't recall that they said they needed them spe-
[271]cifically for the kidnapping. I do recall that the reason was -
[272]the automatic reaction from Latin America is, why do people
[273]need arms when they have got arms everywhere all over Latin
[274]America.
[276]And they said something about, their own arms could be
[277]identified, and they needed some that couldn't be identified.
[278]I don't recall if it was specifically mentioned: that it was
[280]just for that. It was certainly understood that they might
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[314]Consequently, I personally made this proposal, that we
[315]establish what I called a false flag base of people that would
[316]go from outside, and should there be any sort of flap, the
[317]chances of linking it to the U.S. Government would be much
[318]less, because they would appear to be from another nationality. |
[320]Mr. Schwarz. I would like to read to you a cable -- is |
[321]this cable of 27 September in the Senator's book? I know that
[322]he asked for it after I came over.
[324]Mr. Treverton. It is not.
[326]Mr. Schwarz. I am going to read from a cable which
[328]unfortunately is not in your book, but the key part is
[330]relatively simple,
[332]This is a cable, Mr. Phillips, dated September 27, 1970,
[333]and it is signed by yourself and Mr. Broe. And it is sent to
[334]the Station in Chile, and it contains the following about the
[335]purposes of setting up the false flag office --
[337]Mr. Phillips. We call it a base.
[339]Mr. Schwarz. False. flag bases: “Each member of base
[340]will enter and leave Chile with falst documents and operate as
[341]a representative of his country rather than as anAmerican".
[343]That is right, isn't it?
[345]Mr. Phillips. That is true.
[347]Mr. Schwarz. Continue:
[349]"Having at least one key (Braz eben and one key (Argent an!
[351]would be vital, and we have candidates."
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[399]wf SURE
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[402]And you did that.
[403]Mr. Phillips. Yes.
[404]Mr... Schwarz. And then it goes on as follows: "These
[406]officers will perform the delicate shows with great flap
[407]potential which cannot be done by Station personnel or any
[408]Chilean."
[410]That is right, isn't it?
[412]Mr. Phillips. That is true.
[414]Mr.Schwarz. And by flap potential: you meant exposure?
[416]Mr. Phillips. Contacting screwballs such as Marshall,
[417]that sort of thing.
[419]Mr. Schwarz. But generally pursuing the Track II
[420]activities?
[422]Mr. Phillips. That is right.
[424]Mr. Schwarz. Continuing: "An example. We have can-
[426]Smazusltitany intelligence
[427]officers." You did that, didn't you? an
[428]- Mr. Phillips. Yes.
[430]Mr. Schwarz. And this goes on: "If he approached, funde
[432]and ran a Chilean General, any flap would be af
[433]Mr. Phillips. Yes.
[435]Mr. Schwarz. So the scheme was that not only would
[437]the U.S. not be blamed, but other countries like
[438]be blamed if something went wrong.
[440]Mr. Phillips. Yes, this is particularly sensitive to me,
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[449]fore However, that was it. It was a
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[455]rS) devious move. It was the final result -- the idea being that
[457]4 | if such a flap did occur, someone would think it was someone
[458]5 other than the U.S. The idea of false flag operations is
[460]6 not a new one. The idea I had of going to someone and saying,
[462]7 why don't you be a spy for us, I don't work for the Soviets,
[464]8 is not true,
[465]9 But this is sort of new, the fact that action agents
[466]ars ee) should pose as others. And yes, it is devious, but that
[468]11 was the idea.
[470]12 Senator Hart of Colorado. Mr. Phillips, what were
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[474]13 their instructions if they were to be caught? Were they to go
[476]14 to their death swearing they were ns} or whatever?
[477]15 Mr. Phillips. I don't think it was quite that dramatic,
[479]16 Senator. They came to Washington before they went down. And
[481]1? I briefed them,and I think what <I said to them was, this
[482]18 is going to be a toetigh and sensitive one, and you don't have
[484]19 to go if you don't want to, because you culd get in real trouble.
[486]20 ‘And if you get in trouble, I am not sure we can help
[488]21 | you. — .
[490]22 So, they shrugged their shoulders and went.
[492]23 Mr. Schwarz. Did you tell the ® agp that you were
[494]24 | sending someone down to pose as a an, and his instruc-
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[498]25 tions were that if he were caught he was to continue to pose
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[507]2 1 ‘ans’ were approached?
[508]g a Mr. Phillips. It never occurred to us in our wildest
[509]F 5 dreams to do that.
[510]4 Mr. Schwarz. I suppose the relationships between con-
[511]5 tinuing intelligence services were things that were
[512]6 very’ important to preserve, and that we had very close and
[513]7 delicate relationships with the otheriintelligence services.
[514]8 Mr. Phillips. We do. And if there had been such a
[515]9 J would be quite unhappy with us. But I
[517]10 thought that was better than letting the world know that was
[518]ll | a U.S. Citizen down there.
[520]12 Mr. Schwarz. You go on in the cable of September 27
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[524]13 to say this:
[526]14 | "Headquarters believes this false flag was manned by
[528]15 efficers who have repeatedly proved their ability to operate
[529]16 and recruit under false colors, will give Station great flexi-
[531]17 bility in handling delicate and fast-moving situations secure-
[533]18 ly.*
[535]19 So, the use of false flag persons, at least judging
[537]20 from this cable, is something repeatedly done by the CIA?
[538]21 Mr. Phillips. Yes, and by all intelligence services --_
[539]22 || not all, but all major intelligence services. If you are living
[541]23 || overseas and a man comes up to you and’ says, hey, I see you
[543]410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
[545]24 || are a Marxist, and a man comes up and says, I am from Havana
[547]25 | and we would like you to work with the Cuban intelligence
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[597]service, he might not be from Havana, he might be from the
[599]Soviets, from us, or G26 Brazilians. +
[601]So, it is not an unusual practice.
[603]Mr. Schwarz. Incidentally, you just let drop one thing
[604]in your testimony a moment ago. You said that in your 25-year
[605]involvement with intelligence matters you had been bothered
[606]by your activities on only two occasions, one of which was
[607]Chile.
[609]And then you said what the other one was. What was that?
[611]Mr. Phillips. I was in Washington attending the Chiefs
[612]of Station course, which is a training course for people who
[614]are going out on their first assignment as Chief of Station.
[616]When President Johnson decided to send 22,000 Marines
[617]to the Dominican Republic, it occurred to me that in order to
[618]protect and evacuate American citizens, that that job might
[619]have been done with 400 Marines. I was scheduled to go there
[621]ef And I just wasntt sure that I
[623]wanted to be associated with something like that. But I de-
[624]cided, well, I suppose President Johnson knows what he is
[625]--doing, I will go ~- I am going to go along. So, I did go
[626]along.
[627]Senator Schweiker. One question on your differentiation
[628]between where you drew a personal commitment line on assassin-
[629]ations, but not overthrow. I have trouble quite understanding
[631]it, because as I understand Chile, the plot was to overthrow
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[667]Mr. Phillips. There is no question that I could under--
[668]stand why anyone concerned with world affairs, looking at
[669]Chile and what was happening there, would be concerned.
[671]Salvadore Allende made his first statement saying that
[672]he was a Socialist and wanted to change the order some 32
[673]years beforehe was elected. |
[675]Over the years he made it quite clear that he was an ar-
[677]dent socialist. Before this decision was made I believe that
[679]"we had a visit from a man who had the code name ofgaRiely he
[681]was a Cuban intelligence officer.- The Cubans were moving in
[682]rapidly. The influence was great. I think that they saw a lot
[683]at stake, another Cuba in Latin America type of thing, the
[684]same thing perhaps that motivated President Johnson to send
[685]22,000 rather than 400.
[687]So,I-can understand why they thought this was going,
[688]in the long strategic sense, in the “long range against::our
[689]interests. But that is an assumption.
[691]It is true that Allende very definitely made it clear
[692]that he wanted to turn Chile inte a Marxist state. The differ-
[693]ence was that Allende refused to take Fidel Castro's advice
[694]and use violence. As I understand it, Fidel Castro went to
[695]Chile and said, if you want your revolution to last you are
[696]going to have to use violence. #
[698]I found it interesting to read in this morning's paper
[700]where someone from Portugal came back from Cuba and said,
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[749]activities?
[751]Mr. Phillips. No, sir. I was (€HWeessexenr
[753]s§called back in 1970 for
[754]six or seven weeks for what we are referring to as Track II.
[755]Senator MOndale. Now, in that position you familiarized
[756]yourself with the Chilean government, Allende and so on,
[757]and tried to become as expert as you could in the political
[758]forces and so on?
[759]Mr. Phillips. Yes. And in addition to that, Senator,
[760]one of the reasons I was called back was that I had lived
[761]for many years in Chile, so I knew something about it.
[763]Senator Mondale. And itis:your: judgment as I think I
[765]just heard, that although Allende was a Marxist, and espoused
[767]Marxism, he also said he wanted to achieve this through the |
[769]democratic process, and although there was some rough stuff
[771]Be
[773]on the press, and so on, essentially that was the course he
[774]was pursuing, is that correct?
[776]Mr. Phillips. I don't recall that he said it, but
[777]he indeed acted that way.
[779]Senator Mondale. But in fact the course he was pur-
[780]suing was an attempt to achieve the Marxist philosophy with
[781]the population support under constitutional system? ’
[782]Mr. Phillips. Yes, essentially that is true, sir.
[784]Senator. Mondale. Thank you.
[786]Mr. Schwarz. I would like to read to you in connection
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[834]assignment by the President and by the White House?
[836]Mr. Phillips. Senator, it doesn't make any difference
[837]today. On the contrary, since Watergate the people say, why .°.
[838]should we? Before Watergate it was another ball game.
[840]The President was the Commander in Chief in every sense of the
[841]word.
[843]And you said, who am I, a GS-15 bureaucrat, to say that
[844]we shouldn't do this? But that has changed since Watergate.
[846]Senator Hart of Colorado. One other question.
[848]I call your attention in our briefing books to what is
[849]Tab C, a cable which has your name at the end of it dated 21
[850]September 1970, page 3 of 7. Are you an author or co~author
[851]of that cable?
[853]Mr. Phillips. I believe I was the authenticating
[854]officer, yes.
[856]Senator Hart of Colorado. What does that mean?
[858]Mr. Phillips. That meant that the signature on the
[859]right of those cables is someone that is the authenticating
[860]officer in a sense, here is a fellow that is supposed to know
[861]the situation.
[863]Senator Hart of Colorado. But who wrote it, I guess
[867]is what I am after.
[869]Mr. Phillips. I would guess that this cable was probably
[871]Mews Bounzie, and perhaps myself, perhaps it was
[873]written by
[874]joint. But (Meee folwrote an awful lot of them. But by
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[883]1 putting my signature on the authenticating part I said I was
[885]a a part of it. And then, of course, the releasing officer is
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[889]° the one that accepts the responsibility.
[891]4 . Senator Hart of Colorado. Page 3 of 7 which has
[892]a) the paragraph identified as the paragraph F contains the follow-
[894]6 ing sentence or part of a sentence: You suggest sending
[896]7 us cables outlining objectives and course of events, et
[898]8 cetera, and he said, always conditioned by the fact that we hav
[899]9 to keep our feet in the mud of practicality, and our eyes
[901]10 | on the stars.
[903]11 What does that mean in Agency talk?
[905]12 Mr. Phillips. Senator, I want to assure you with real
[907]13 seriousness that I am not the author of that phrase.
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[911]14 Senator Hart of Colorado. It must have caught your eye,
[913]15 however.
[915]16 Mr. Phillips. It did catch my eye. If this was indeed
[917]17 a joint venture, I can promise that that was 4D
[918]18 contribution, and if you ever meet him you will understand
[920]19 | why. He was addicted to picturesque speech. And «looking
[922]20 back, all I can say is that it probably went out at four
[923]21 || o'clock in the morning, and we were very tired, and I just
[924]22} didn't want to argue about that phrase, and I let it go. I
[926]23 || am not sure what it means even now.
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[930]94 SEnator Hart of Colorado. Neither am I. But it seems
[932]BS to describe a lot of what we have heard around here for the
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[941]L Now, I read that as Helms' position being that the
[943]z assassination of Schneider was something which presented the
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[947]) opportunity for the very thing that the U.S. wished to have
[949]4 done.
[951]5 Do you agree with me?
[953]6 Mr. Phillips. No, I can't agree with you on that. I am
[955]7 not sure about the suggestion from the language. But I will
[957]8 tell you the immediate reaction in our little task force when
[959]9 | the word came that Schneider was dead, that is it, it is *indshe
[960]10. Knowing. Chileans, the moment that that violence occurred,
[962]ll || Chileans, with the possible exception of a nut such as
[963]12 Marshall, immediately said,this is it, that is enough. There
[965]15 | was still that tradition over the years. And I think that the
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[969]14 moment we heard of it and we discussed it we Said, that is
[970]15 it, there will be no more. In Many countries in Latin America
[971]16 that would have been the Signal for further action, weakness,
[973]1? and so forth. But in this case it was the end of the
[975]1g | business.
[976]19 Mr. Schwarz. I want to run through with you the activi+
[978]20 || ties which were being undertaken with the Valenzuela group
[980]£1 || and with the Viaux group. In the case of Viaux, was that one
[981]22 || of the assignments that the false flag officers had?
[983]23 Mr. Phillips. Yes.
[985]24 Mr. Schwarz. And in the case of Valenzuela, was that
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[1037]Mr. Phillips.
[1039]Yes, I believe it was(@olner:
[1041]Cam that was in touch with that group.
[1042]Mr. Schwarz. And the two teams worked in tandem,
[1043]didn't they?
[1044]Mr. Phillips. Are you referring to Chilean teams?
[1046]Mr. Schwarz. No, the false flag team (@nateoioner.
[1048]Mr. Phillips. Only in the sense that there might have
[1049]been some central direction from the office or from headquar-
[1051]ters. I don't believe that anyone of the false flaggers had
[1053]Eee. 4
[1055]the slightest idea that{ june was working with us.
[1057]mméet} ~- I don't know that
[1061]Sheth
[1063]So, no, they didn't work in tandem, except in sense of
[1064]direction from the Station.
[1066]Mr. Schwarz. Headquarters down there, and you in
[1067]Washington, were working with both the Valenzuela groupand
[1068]the viaux group?
[1070]Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir.
[1072]Senator Hart of Colorado. Are you in a chain here,
[1073]counsel?
[1075]Mr. Schwarz. I am in a chain, but it is easily interrup-
[1076]tible.
[1078]Senator Hart of Colorado. Mr. Phillips, did we
[1080]chronologically “-- maybe the «staff can answer that, I am just
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[1126]Viaux group was really acting in order to carry out step one
[1127]of the Valenzuela group's plan?
[1129]Mr. Phillips. Yes, to address this point specifically.
[1131]Obviously when the guns were passed ShRoughacotoneilee wis
[1135]and the death occurred so soon after, immediately we
[1136]thought they probably used those guns. It was then when we
[1137]read the press reports that General Schneider died from hand-
[1138]gun wounds. And that was the first time we thought we could
[1139]really be sure in our own mind that it wasn't directly
[1140]the Valenzuela group using those guns.
[1142]Mr. Schwarz. What about the gas masks that had
[1143]been furnished earlier? WAsn't there evidence that there
[1144]were gas masks in the care of the persons who attempted to
[1145]abduct General Schneider?
[1147]Mr. PHillips. I don't recall. There may very well have
[1148]been, but I am not real sure about that.
[1150]Mr. Schwarz. I am going to go to another area, which
[1152]questions on the relationship between the two groups.
[1154]is the relationship . If there are any
[1156]Senator Hart of Colorado. Concerning the October 19
[1157]attempts, under Tab 4 on page 7 of the longer memorandum
[1158]by Dianne LaVoy under October 18 there is reference to a cable
[1159]A66 dated October 19. And concerning the connection of
[1160]these various conspirators, it says: “Valenzuela meets with.
[1162]wemy. attaché and gives him a 15 point plan for coup to be
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[1202]carried out on October 19.
[1204]#4
[1206]the Carabineros away from the Schneier houseto assure that the
[1207]abduction will not be interferred with. General Viaux is
[1208]knowledgeable of the above operation, but is not directly
[1209]involved." .
[1211]What do you think "not directly involved" refers to?
[1212]Why not just not involved? |
[1214]Mr. Phillips. I think that probably referred to what
[1215]I was saying before, that in these situations it is not very
[1216]unusual that there is not some talk that everybody has a cousin
[1217]that works with some group type of thing.
[1219]And I believe that it must refer to that.
[1221]Mr. Schwarz. Taking the actual cable, is the actual
[1222]cable in the Senator's books?
[1224]Mr. Inderfurther. No.
[1226]Mr. Schwarz. Let me read the full text of that para-
[1227]graph from the cable. It is a cable apparently dated 19
[1228]October on the subject of General Viaux:
[1230]- "General Viaux, knowledgeable of above operation, but not
[1231]directly involved. He has been sent to Vina to stay with
[1232]prominent physician. Will be seen in public places during 19
[1233]and 20 October to demonstrate fact that above operation is
[1234]not his doing. Will be allowed to return to Santiago at end of
[1236]week."
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[1272]. 94
[1274]Now, I can't read that language any way other than
[1275]meaning that the Valenzuela group and the Viaux group were in
[1276]close cooperation, that was part of the abduction plan, it
[1277]was agreed between the two that Viaux would appear -~ would
[1278]be out of town so that he would not appear to be involved.
[1279]And you have to read that, do you not, as meaning that there
[1280]was a close cooperation on this effort between the two groups.
[1282]Mr. Phillips. Yes, I think. you. do have to read it that
[1283]way.
[1285]Miss Culbreth. Would you. identify that paper more
[1286]than just the statement?
[1288]Mr. Phillips. Cable sent to headquarters A66.
[1290]Mr. Schwarz. No. A66, eyes only to --
[1292]Mr. Inderfurth. DCOS, which was @i®
[1294]Mr. Treverton. It is Tab M, it is in the book.
[1295]Mr. Schwarz. I think we ought to mark that as an ex-
[1296]hibit.
[1297](The document referred to was
[1298]marked Phillips Exhibit No. 2
[1300]for identification.)
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[1344]. i01
[1346]As for the narrow part of your question, by all means
[1347]it is a bad way to do business,
[1349]Senator Schweiker. Go ahead.
[1351]Mr. Schwarz. ‘Picking up on Senator Schweiker's line
[1352]of quesioning, would you show the witness Tab A, the docu-
[1353]ment Tab A.
[1355]It is a memorandum for the record by Mr. Broe dated 17
[1356]September, and then that is crossed out and it says 16 Sep-
[1357]tember, “Subject, Genesis of Project".
[1359]Incidentally, what was the code name for this project?
[1360]Was it/FU Bel#? |
[1362]Mr. Phillips.
[1364]Mr. Schwarz.
[1366]Mr. Phillips.
[1368]“Jetters there indicaté a geographical araa. So it would bégay
[1370]Fdot-of different ones, but that would mean Chile. FU Réel,
[1371]e— ~ ~ — 7 a amen et en im ate
[1373]Belt means nothing J
[1375]Mr. Schwarz. Everybody keeps saying that so many of
[1376]these things mean nothing. Who is responsible for these
[1377]names?
[1379]Mr« Phillips. There is somebody who is supposed to have
[1380]a big liest to make sure that they were not duplicated.
[1381]And I think sometimes there is a pixie-like quality that comes
[1382]out in those things.
[1384]Senator Schweiker. That is an understatement, to call
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[1428], 102
[1429]it pixie-like.
[1431]Mr.. Phillips. But many times the cryptonums mean ab-
[1432]solutely nothing, they have no Meaning at all.
[1434]Senator Schweiker.. SRRIFLE, ROGUE ELEPHANT --
[1436]Mr. Phillips. I am sorry, Sir.
[1438]Senator Schweiker. We have come across a few other good
[1439]ones,
[1441]Mr. Schwarz. I don't know if ‘you have ever seen that
[1442]decument, and it doesn't matter. But the end of paragraph 2
[1443]indicates that the instructions from the President concluded:
[1445]“The Agency is to carry out this mission without
[1446]coordination with the Department of State or Defense".
[1448]Mr. Phillips. Yes.
[1450]Mr. Schwarz. And that was your instruction?
[1452]Mr. Phillips. That is correct.
[1454]Mr.- Schwarz. Now, in fact, of course, you did use in
[1456]as
[1458]Chile a man calledGo! el ‘Wimert.¥
[1460]Mr. Phillips. Yes.
[1462]Mr. Schwarz. And he was in the Defense Department?
[1464]Mr. Phillips. That is correct.
[1466]Mr. Schwarz. And he was assigned -- he was instructed
[1467]to take his instructions only from the CIA inChile, is that
[1468]right?
[1470]Mr. Phillips. Yes.
[1472]Mr. Schwarz. And he was instructed indeed not to tell
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[1518]. 103
[1519]his superior in Chile, the man who was in charge of the
[1520]defense attache system down there?
[1521]Mr. Phillips. That is true, sir.
[1523]‘iWimert was the man from/the Army] and then
[1525]Bal
[1527]Mr. Schwarz.
[1531]there was someone else in tHe=Air“Frorgggethe Nays and there
[1533]panes cee,
[1535]was a hoss?
[1536]Mr. Phillips. That is right.
[1537]Mr. Schwarz. And{Wimer& was told not to tell that boss?
[1539]Mr. Phillips. I believe that is true, yes.
[1541]Vonel Wimeme
[1543]Mr. Schwarz. © Now, how did it happen that feo
[1544]came to work for and under the direction of the CIA?
[1546]Mr. Phillips. I believe the explanation for that was
[1548]Se lea warm
[1550]A
[1554]the fact thatf@ had been around Latin America,
[1556]spoke perfect Spanish, his hobby was riding horses, and he
[1557]developed really marvelous relationships with the military of
[1558]officers that he had contact with. And I think it was just
[1559]that someone recognized the fact that if we had been given the
[1560]task of getting a coup going using the military, why not take
[1562]advantage of & that they liked the most,
[1564]trusted the most, and saw the most? It was perfectly natural
[1565]for him to spend his weekends with these people.
[1567]Mr. Schwarz. And so he was a natural and helpful asset.
[1568]But how was it arranged that he would work for the CIA, and
[1569]lay that question against the instruction from President
[1571]Nixon that the Defense Department was not to know, how did
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[1607]104
[1608]you accomplish it?
[1609]Mr. Phillips. I don't know. I have had my memory
[1610]refreshed by looking at some documents now, and I know
[1611]that someone came and gave me the piece of paper in this book
[1613]that has been signed by General Philpott. which was a message
[1615]SA) saying, cooperate with the CIA. What the process
[1616]was for getting that approval, or who went to see Philpott",
[1617]I wasn't involved with that, I just don't recall.
[1619]Mr. Schwarz. Did you ever see Philpott ?
[1621]Mr. Phillips. I never did.
[1623]Mr. Schwarz. Did you ever see --=
[1625]Mr. Phillips. I may have seen Philpott in some large
[1626]meeting or something like that, but I don't recall any
[1628]meeting with any of the generals. I was relatively too junior
[1630]to have attended these meetings. This would have been Mr.
[1632]Broe, Mr. Karamessines, and so forth. And I would have been
[1633]left back in the shop, sort of, I think. |
[1635]Mr. Schwarz. And did you ever see or talk to Bennett?
[1637]Mr. Phillips. Not to my recollection. I think not.
[1639]Mr. Schwara. I asked you if you ever saw General Phil-
[1640]pott, or did you ever talk to .General Philpott?
[1642]Mr. Phillips. I don't recall such a talk. During this
[1643]entire period, for instance, I never went outside of our build-
[1644]ing.I was there sort of in the shop. And other people would do
[1646]that sort of thing.
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[1691]iVr JECKE I
[1692]107
[1694]Mr. Schwarz. Is that the form in which you sent the
[1695]message which is contained in Exhibit 3 to Chile?
[1697]Mr. Phillips. It is.
[1699]Mr. Schwarz. Now, apparently Exhibit 4, which you
[1700]drafted initially, said that it was from General Bennett, and
[1701]then it was changed to say it was from General Philpott.
[1703]Did you make that change?
[1705]Mr. Phillips. That is my handwriting above that said
[1706]Philpott, and someone else's handwriting below that said
[1707]Bennett. I think the signature on the original document
[1708]was from Philpott. But that is my change there.
[1710]Mr. Schwarz. And is the change on the second page --
[1711]the sentence reads:
[1713]jimert¥ to retain copy of this
[1715]"Do not allow §Gosor
[1716]message", and then in handwriting it is asserted "Note that
[1717]General Bennett is out of the country".
[1719]Mr. Phillips. Yes, that is my handwriting.
[1721]Mr. Schwarz. Having seen that, and these changes, what
[1722]do you recall about the circumstances that led you to make
[1723]those changes?
[1725]Mr. Phillips. It-:‘is possible that this message is one
[1726]of the rare messages that sometimes occur, that you are handed
[1727]something that is written out, and there is no secretary,
[1728]and it is two o'clock in the morning or something like that.
[1730]On some occasions you will take a very rough draft and ask
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[1773]. 108
[1774]the communicators to send that, and youwill then later write
[1775]for the record, and have typed for the record the formal cable.
[1776]I am not sure about that.
[1778]Mr. Schwarz. You think what you sent used General Ben-
[1779]nett's name and not General Philpott's name?
[1781]Mr. Phillips. I don't recall. But I believe if that had .
[1782]been the case that not only would the change have been made,
[1783]but there would have been some sort of note on the side or
[1784]something. So, I believe that the original must have said
[1785]Philpott. But I can't be absolutely positive.
[1787]Mr. Schwarz. But the original typed version onthe
[1788]first page used Bennett's name, right?
[1790]Mr. Phillips. Yes.
[1792]Mr. Schwarz. Now, I am puzzled, because if you had
[1793]previously obtained the document which is Exhibit 3, the
[1795]"suggested message to be sent & | from General
[1797]Bennett", and which is in fact signed with a::name that
[1798]purports to be General Philpott's, if you had obtained that
[1799]before drafting the typed message, I take it you would have use
[1800]Philpott's name in the typed message and not Bennetts’.
[1802]Mr. PHillips. Yes.
[1804]Mr. Schwarz. . So that suggests that you typed the typed
[1805]message before you obtained the document which is Exhibit 3
[1806]that has Mr. Philpott's siqnature? |
[1808]Mr. Phillips. No, I would not have done that. I would
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[1815]IMP SECKEI
[1819]to]
[1821]3
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[1827]5 i iwasn't aware of this.
[1829]o
[1831]E e Mr. Schwarz. After that initial occasion involving
[1832]o _
[1834]c =z a 8
[1836]F ss) faigalr: ta
[1838]the use of Philpott's name in order to instruct@galmes
[1839]4 work for the CIA, was anybody from the Defense Intelligence
[1840]9 Agency further brought into the operation which we have been
[1841]6 calling Track II?
[1843]7 Mr. PHillips. My answer to that until a few minutes
[1845]8 ago would have been, I don't recall that. I have seen a documan
[1847]9 since then that indicates that someone else was talked to
[1849]10 | later. If I knew that I had forgotten it, or perhaps never
[1850]1l |) knew it -- I must have known it if I saw the message. But
[1852]12 || until I saw this thing, to refresh my memory I would have
[1854]13 || said, I think that Philpott was the man.
[1856]WARD & PAUL
[1858]14 Mr. Schwarz. Was the man, and was only contacted on
[1859]15 | that one occasion? 4
[1860]16 Mr. Phillips. As far as I know, that one occasion.
[1862]1? | But I didn't necessarily know what was outside of my little
[1864]18 room with windows, and so there were. other people doing other
[1866]: 19 || things.
[1867]: 20 Mr. Schwarz. Let's then look at the other documents.
[1868]: 21 Would you mark Tab G as Exhibit 5.
[1870]i 22 ; (The document referred to was
[1871]: 23 marked Phillips Exhibit No. 5
[1872]: 24 for identification.)
[1874]25
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[1882]. 112
[1884]1 Mr. Schwarz. And this is a cable releasing officer Willila
[1886]“ | Broe, authenticating officer David A Phillips, dated Octo-
[1888]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[1890]) ber 14, 1970, from CIA headquarters to Santiago, CIA.
[1891]4 And it says:
[1892]5 "Please deliver the following message (‘destroy immedi- :
[1894]6 | ately') BE eyes only from Lieutenant General
[1896]7 Bennett. "
[1898]8 Now, on what basis did you authenticate that message
[1900]9 which purports to bef iwimert? from Lieutenant General
[1901]10} Bennett?
[1902]il. Mr. Phillips. Obviously -- not obviously, but because
[1904]12 || I presume in this case -- I am sure in this case once again
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[1908]13 there was a document that was handed to me and I was told,
[1910]14 | send this down. ‘In order to make this point, I was in there,
[1911]15 | and it was sort of a direct operational thing, and when I
[1913]16 || authenticated them I did it because I knew what was going on.
[1914]17 |. If Bill Broe, my boss, came in and said, here is a document .
[1916]18 that we want to send, or if Tom Karamessines said, I worked on
[1918]3
[1919]8 19 the assumption that they were passing on to me the authority
[1920]9
[1921]¢ 20 to authenticate, and I didn't necesarily turn to them and say,
[1922]o
[1923]& 21 || hey --
[1924]ES ;
[1925]Wl 22 Mr Schwarz. Prove that --
[1926]5 23 Mr. Phillips. Prove that you have been talking with
[1927]3 24 General Bennett -- I obviously didn't do that.
[1928]t
[1929]25 Mr. Schwarz. Then mark as Exhibit 6 an undated docu-
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[1968](The document referred to was
[1969]Marked Phillips Exhibit No. 6
[1971]for identification.)
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[2009]. 114
[2011]Mr. Schwarz. Now, that purports to be from LTG Bennett
[2013]Wanees, and has the text in it which you sent on
[2015]AR ait ay Se s;
[2016]eon Colle nou ey,
[2018]Mr. Phillips. Yes.
[2020]Mr. Schwarz. And what is your best recollection as to
[2021]who handed you that document?
[2023]Mr. Phillips. I cannot say definitely who did that.
[2024]There were many occasions when Bill Broe would walk into the
[2025]office and say, here is something to send. There were others
[2026]which would come in a manila envelope with a yellow
[2027]forwarding slip on it. There are times,I am sure, when I
[2028]would go into Bill Broe's office, and he would say, by the
[2029]way, send this.
[2031]I simply cannot recall the circumstances -in which some-
[2032]one handed me that and said, send it to Chile. And I was paying
[2033]less attention to those things, because I was in effect the
[2034]postman for people doing other things. |
[2036]Mr. Schwarz. Do you have any recollection at all
[2037]about this document?
[2039]Mr. Phillips. No, I am afraid I don't.
[2041]Mr. Schwarz. What is your reading of the signature on
[2042]that document?
[2044]Mr. PHillips. Well, it certainly looks like the sig-
[2045]nature which was on the other document which was said to be
[2047]Philpott's. But I am not an authority on these things.
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[2053]. 119
[2055]ache.
[2057]1 Gmilitary attache. jana those instructions went down. Apparently
[2059]2 it would appear that theremight be something here where they
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[2063]) are going to bring in more people, as is known to several per-
[2064]4 sons, it says down here.
[2065]5 And itmay have been because there was an attempt there
[2067]6 not to say to these new people, by the way, we want to talk
[2069]? to you about something we are doing that we have kind of
[2071]8 already done. That is theonly thing I can come up with. I
[2073]9 can't give you a better explanation than that.
[2074]10 Mr. Schwarz. This you characterize also as a puzzling
[2075]il || and strange document?
[2077]12 Mr. Phillips. Yes. And I am sorry that I can't be
[2079]135 || more helpful on this. But I was treating these -- these things
[2081]WARD & PAUL
[2083]14 || were coming through my mail shoot, and I was putting headings
[2085]15 | on them. Even though I signed them and so forth, I wasn't
[2087]16 | paying the attention to things that I did to my own job.
[2089]17 Mr. Schwarz. That is an explanation that deals with
[2090]18 some of the earlier documents. But here in the first place
[2092]19 || you were both the releasing officer and the authenticating
[2094]20 || officer. |
[2096]Pal And second, this is not simply taking some other message
[2097]ee || and putting a heading on it, is it? This is a substantive
[2099]23 || document purporting to explain a problem to your CIA Station
[2101]e4 | Chief in Santiago, right, do you agree with that?
[2103]410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
[2105]25 Mr. Phillips. I do. And I agree that it is puzzling,
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[2151], 120
[2152]and there are some holes here. Perhaps I can be helpful when
[2153]you have further testimony on this to help me job my memory.
[2154]I can't remember the rationale for this.
[2155]Mr. Schwarz. Let's take some of the statements that
[2156]are in the telegram and deal with them specifically.
[2158]Paragraph 2: "There seems little doubt this will
[2160]It has confused all of us here, so I suppose it would
[2161]have confused him.
[2163]"Background for his information: both Generals Bennett
[2164]and Philpott have been briefed by Broe". |
[2166]Who told you that?
[2168]Mr. PHillips. | I don't know for sure, but I presume
[2169]this must have been Bill Broe.
[2171]Mr. Schwarz. Do you have any recollection of his telling
[2172]you that?
[2174]Mr. Phillips. I do not. But I don't think that I --
[2175]I don't see myself releasing that cable without being sure that
[2176]Broe knew what was going out in that cable. In other words,
[2177]that is hthe kind of cable that I wouldn't have released
[2178]just because someone else came in and said that sort of thing.
[2179]This cable I think must have originated either with a dis-
[2180]cussion with Broe that said, look, send the following word,
[2181]write up something like this, or perhaps some notes, and say,
[2183]do a cable from it, or just as possible -- and I can't read it
[2185]TOP SECRET.
[2187]HY 50955 Docld:32262005 Page 30
[2192]23 The point’I.am trying to make is, if Mr. Broe were
[2194]24 leaving the office and we had gone through this exchange, and
[2196]3 121
[2197]g
[2198]g 1 here -- isthe fact that it was actually drafted by someone
[2199]i 2 else that was working in my shop,§ op or someone
[2200]5 3 else, that went in and talked to Broe. Maybe I was doing some-
[2201]a | thing else, and they came to me with a typed thing and said,
[2202]5 here, I cleared this with Broe, and so he signed both things.
[2203]6 So I really can't remember.
[2204]: : at es
[2205]? Mr. Schwarz. Under either assumption, either that Broe
[2206]8 spoke to you directly or that someone on your staff
[2207]9 spoke to Broe, you had Broe around at the time this cable goes
[2208]10 |) out?
[2209]11]. Mr. Phillips. Yes.
[2210]2
[2211]i 12 Mr. Schwarz. Then why wouldn't he sign it?
[2212]13 Mr. Phillips. Here is one thing. At the time the cable
[2213]14 went out -- I can't remember well enough if it was late at
[2214]15 night.
[2215]. 16 Mr. Schwarz. Does the time up above indicate 11:59?
[2216]1? Mr. Phillips. Where do you see that?
[2217]18 _ Mr. Schwarz. In the upper lefthand corner. It has
[2218]3 19 a date 14 October 17, and right above that is 11:59 --
[2219]: 20 Mr. Phillips. Right.
[2220]: 21 ; Mr. Schwarz. -~- in the customary place for the time.
[2221]3
[2222]ui 22 Mr. Phillips. I don't see that on this copy. .
[2223]3
[2225]25 || he had done it with someone else in my office, he might well
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[2237]Le
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[2271]and saying, look, we want you to go along with this and use
[2273]Lonel Wimert down there, he is really important to us, and
[2275]Ge
[2277]that sort of thing, and was perhaps slightly embarrassed
[2278]by the fact that they had been doing that before. That is the
[2279]only explanation I can give.
[2281]Mr. Schwarz. So you would assume that these new
[2282]interested parties and the several persons referred to in
[2283]the two sentences are persons who were in higher authority
[2284]than Bennett and Philpott?
[2286]Mr. Phillips. I assume that, but do not know. I just --
[2287]this thing was being so closely held, it just doesn't seem
[2288]logical to me that they would start going outside and down,
[2290]I thought that they would go outside and up. But I say, I
[2291]only assume that.
[2293]Mr.Schwarz. You have characterized Exhibit 7 as itself
[2294]being sort of puzzling. And the situation it deals with, as
[2295]you now describe it, is one that is kind of ticklish, isn't it?
[2297]Mr. Phillips. I understand.
[2299]Mr. Schwarz. The CIA had been using{iwa and knew
[2301]some people in higher authority than General Bennett, which
[2302]would mean very senior in the Defense Department, right?
[2303]Mr. Phillips. Yes.
[2304]Mr. Schwarz. or outside the Defense Department, but
[2306]very senior persons. They apparently are expressing an in-
[2308]terest, and according to this telegram, or your reconstruction
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[2319]1 of it, General Bennett and General Philpott feel that they are
[2321]a embarrassed to refute the fact that they had already been doing
[2323]Pnone {Area 202) 544-6000
[2325]5 || the work for the CIA
[2326]4 Now, all those things were not ordinary garden variety
[2328]5 || daily events, were they?
[2330]6 Mr. Phillips. They were not.
[2331]7 Mr. Schwarz. You don't remember this at all?
[2332]8 Mr. Phillips. No, and I didn't want to imply that it
[2334]9 was necessarily because General Philpott would have been
[2335]10 embarrassed, it could have been within CIA as well.
[2337]il But this rather unusual step was made because of the
[2338]12 || talents of the military men, to bring him into a program
[2340]13 that you weren't even talking with the State Department about.
[2342]WARD & PAUL,
[2344]14°} And so that indeed was unusual to a great degree. And I am
[2345]15 really very sorry to appear to be so vague about these things
[2346]16 || that I obviously had something to do with.
[2348]1? But my explanation is that I was doing a certain job,
[2350]18 and that other’ people were outside, and Mr. Karamessines would
[2351]19 || be talking with Mr. Helms about something, and this, that and
[2352]20 || the other, and I was on the day-by-day operation side, and when
[2353]21 someone would come in and say, we want something to go down
[2355]22 || to Wimert, and it has something to do with General Philpott,
[2357]23 | I didn't pay the kind of attention I would to it if it had
[2359]24 || been one of our operations.
[2361]410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
[2363]25 ' Mr. Schwarz. Go back up to the beginning at paragraph 2
[2365]TOP SECRET
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[2370]" Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
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[2374]11
[2376]12
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[2382]14
[2383]15
[2384]16
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[2400]129
[2401]there were it says, "There is no doubt that this will confuse
[2402]Background for his information".
[2403]Now, there are two ways in which those words "for his
[2404]information" can be read. One is that it is the genuine
[2406]background.
[2408]The other is that it is a story to be given wait
[2409]his information, which is the fact, if you know, and which way
[2410]doyou read it if you do not know what the facts are?
[2412]Mr. Phillips. I assume that it is the true story, because
[2413]nowhere during this period did I encounter anything, nor do
[2414]I remember anything that I thought was devious to the extent
[2415]‘of falsehood in putting something down like that.
[2417]So, I assume that it is really for his background of
[2418]what happened.
[2420]Mr. Schwarz. And you don't remember from where you got
[2421]the information which you provided in this cable?
[2423]Mr. Phillips. I do not. Perhaps I can be more helpful
[2424]after you talk to others. But I simply do not.
[2426]Mr. Schwarz. The last paragraphs make the notation
[2428]"that we must advise GEneral Bennett time when fume ne shown"
[2429]the telegram. which is Exhibit 3.
[2431]Did you advise General Bennett?
[2433]Mr. Phillips. I did not. If it was done ~~ and I
[2434]presume it was -- I was not involved, and wouldn't have been
[2436]involved. And they would not have sent me over to see General
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[2445]nue)
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[2457]16
[2458]1?
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[2475]130
[2477]Bennett, who was the head of DIA at the time. So, I don't
[2478]know that it was.
[2480]Mr. Schwarz. Which is the tab at which the reply
[2481]from Wimert is located? Is it kK?
[2483]Mr. Treverton. kK, yes.
[2485]Mr. Schwarz. Would you mark as the next exhibit, Exhibit
[2487]8, another cable to headquarters, "Eyes only for Lieutenant
[2489]General Bennett Eton.
[2490](The document referred to was
[2491]marked Phillips Exhibit No. 8
[2493]for identification.)
[2495]TOP SECRET
[2497]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[2499]nue)
[2503]12
[2505]13
[2507]WARD & PAUL
[2509]14
[2511]15
[2513]16
[2515]1?
[2517]18
[2519]19
[2521]20
[2523]al
[2527]23
[2529]24
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[2533]25
[2535]131
[2536]Mr. Schwarz. Can you tell from the face of it, are we
[2537]correct that this is a document that was sent from the CIA
[2539]station in Santiago to CIA headquarters purporting to come
[2541]ce and purporting to be directed to Lieutenant
[2542]General Bennett?
[2544]Mr. Phillips. That is true.
[2546]Mr. Schwarz. In the ordinary course to whom would
[2547]such a cable go? And the second question, who would have the
[2548]responsibility of passing information on to General Bennett?
[2550]Mr. Phillips. In the ordinary course of events this cabl
[2551]would have come to me where I was working in the sense of an
[2552]info copy and this, that and the other.
[2554]The action on this cable would have certainly have gone
[2555]at least to Mr.Broe, and possibly higher, because it says,
[2556]this is his message to the head of another government
[2557]service. And so it would have gone to that level.
[2559]Mr. Schwarz. And in the ordinary course it would have
[2560]come to you first, and then it would have been passed on to
[2561]either Mr. Broe or someone higher to take action?
[2563]Mr. Phillips. For action -- not always. Sometimes a
[2564]cable will come in and there will be more than one copy.
[2566]And right away the action copy will go to the other fellow, and
[2567]then you get the information copy, and so forth.
[2569]Mr. Schwarz. Can you tell from the face of this cable
[2571]whether there would have been more than one copy?
[2573]TOP SECRET
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[2615]. 132
[2616]Mr. Phillips. There is no indicator to say who it went
[2617]to.
[2618]Mr. Schwarz. Does the"eyes only"have any significance
[2619]to you in the third line?
[2621]Mr. Phillips. Only in the sense that what §€
[2623]ment, but not through regular channels, and not to anyone else
[2624]other than General Bennett.
[2626]Mr. Schwarz. Did it go to General Bennett?
[2628]Mr. Phillips. I do not know.
[2630]Mr. Schwarz. And did you pass it to someone?
[2632]Mr. Phillips. If it did not go it would have been
[2633]highly unusual for amessage to come in from overseas saying,
[2634]give this to the head of another Agency, and for it not to
[2635]be delivered it would have been extremely unusual.
[2637]Mr. Schwarz. What would le the normal form of its
[2638]delivery? Would there be a cover note put on it?
[2640]Mr. Phillips. (It would have probably been folded
[2641]into an envelope and delivered by hand. Because if it is
[2642]really an “eyes only" message of such import, if it goes
[2643]through a communications channel, it means that they are going
[2644]to be operators of machinery to see it, and so forth. If
[2646]an American Ambassador overseas wants to get a very sensitive
[2648]message up he has the option of sending it to us and saying,
[2650]will you please hand carry this over to the Secretary of State?
[2652]TOP SECRET
[2654]HW 50955 Docld: 32282005 Page 37
[2657]IVP SECKEI!I
[2659]8 137
[2660]Z .
[2661]2 1 Mr. Schwarz. This message states:
[2662]Oo
[2663]° a . .
[2664]g 2 es "Please deliver the following message, (‘destroy imme~
[2665]ne HS 3
[2667]z 20g iately') Sto. eyes only from Lieutenant General
[2669]OV
[2670]oe Bennett." And the message was: "For your information suspen-
[2671]ON
[2672]Se a sion temporarily imposed on MAP and FMS has been rescinded’®.,
[2673]Se .
[2674]FF Vo What are MAP and FMS.
[2675]LY
[2676]g
[2677]? Mr. Phillips. Military Assistance of some kind or
[2678]8 another, Military Arms Procurement, or something like that.
[2679]9 Mr. Schwarz. Military Assistance Program?
[2680]10 Mr. Phillips. That is probably it.
[2681]11 Mr. Schwarz. And what is FMS?
[2682]ad
[2683]2
[2684]< 12 Mr. Inderfurther. Foreign Military Sales. _
[2686]: 13 Mr. Schwarz. Continuing: "This action does not, \
[2687]2 .
[2689]14 || repeat not, imply change in our estimated situation. On the
[2690]15 || contrary, it is intended to place us in a posture in: which
[2691]16 || we can formally cut off assistance if Allende elected and
[2693]17 | situation develops as we anticipate. Request up date
[2695]18 | of situation".
[2697]: 19 Now, Bennett's job at that time was what?
[2699]3 20 Mr. Phillips. I believe he was the Chief of DIA.
[2703]: 21 Mr. Schwarz. Defense Intelligence Agency?
[2705]; 20 Mr. Phillips. Yes.
[2707]z 23 Mr. Schwarz. Is the Defense Intelligence Agency
[2709]: a4 || responsible for decisions to military assistance programs?
[2710]s
[2712]25 Mr. Phillips. My opinion is that they are not.
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[2752]138
[2753]Mr. Schwarz. And they don't really have anything to
[2755]do with that, do they?
[2757]Mr. Phillips. I would gather from this message that
[2758]it is simply an explanation from ~~ it says General Bennett
[2759]+, to explain something. As a part o Track I, and the
[2760]whole business, all of these different options were being
[2761]looked at and people were saying, let's don't help them with
[2762]military things because it looks like Allende is going to get
[2763]in. And the decision: was made, well, let's go ahead
[2764]and do it. And this was apparently sort of a request for
[2765]to give him some rationale behind it when he
[2766]was down there running - away trying to foment the coup,
[2767]saying, why is the U.S. Government still helping this govern-
[2770]I am speculating. But this was another one of those
[2771]messages quote unquote which went in our channels.
[2773]Mr. Schwarz. Who gave you this message?.
[2775]Mr. Phillips. I do not remember.
[2777]Mr. Schwarz. You have no recollection whatsoever?
[2779]Mr. Phillips. Sir, it is five years ago, and there are
[2780]a lot of messages, and as I said, these were the ones that
[2781]I was the least interested in in the sense of being involved,
[2782]and so forth, and I just can't remember who handed it to me
[2783]or how it arrived.
[2785]Mr. Schwarz. Would you expect that there should be
[2787]another document which contains the eer message from
[2789]TOP SECR
[2792]Prone (Area 202} 544-6000 |
[2794]10
[2796]11
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[2833], . 140
[2835]Mr. Fenn. Yes.
[2837]Mr. Schwarz. Talking about telephones, incidentally,
[2838]was there a secure telephone between Washington and Santiago
[2839]which was used for messages, or did you use the cable always?
[2841]Mr. Phillips. We never used the telephone, unless it is
[2842]a personal message like your aunt died and you have to get on
[2843]the next plane for the funeral. Otherwise you use those
[2844]absolutely marvelous communications facilities that get it
[2845]down there --a flash cable will get there in 20 minutes.
[2847]In the recess I have been thinking about this, and I re-
[2849]alize that I have not been very helpful in what obviously is
[2851]a contradictory situation here. As I read it, either General
[2852]Bennett does not recall this, or else there was some sort of
[2853]endeavor within CIA headquarters to use his name. Is that
[2854]the approach we are making to this?
[2856]Mr. Schwarz. I don't think we are trying any approach.
[2857]He has denied any knowledge of this.
[2859]Senator Schweiker. We are just confused.
[2861]Mr. Phillips. Maybe I am confused, too.
[2863]Senator Schweiker. Can you enlighten us at all?
[2865]Mr. PHillips. If it were someone in CIA headquarters
[2867]saying, we are going to use Bennett's name without his
[2869]knowledge because it has a lot ‘of clout, I don't understand
[2871]ysaid, I am with you 100 percent, and from
[2873]TOP SECRET
[2877]8 141
[2878]3
[2879]pe i that moment began cooperating with the Chief of Station. I don'lt
[2880]o
[2881]g e recall any instance where there was any indication of hesitancy
[2882]F 5 on his part about doing what he was doing.
[2883]4
[2885]And I certainly can't comment about General Bennett's
[2887]5 side, not having been involved with him.
[2889]6 From the CIA side I suppose it is conceivable that some-
[2890]7 one is using that business that I referred to in dispatches,
[2892]8 General Bennett says, when they are really talking about
[2894]9 what a subordinate of General Bennett says, and they figure
[2896]10 he is acting for them, or something like that. I guess that
[2898]ll |} is conceivable.
[2900]12 But I would find it very unusual to see some sort of
[2902]13 |) little plot hatched here, because there was no need to.
[2904]WARD & PAUL
[2906]14 Mr. Schwarz. What you are saying is that you can't see
[2907]15 a motive?
[2909]16 Mr. Phillips. Precisely.
[2911]17 I can't see the motive for fooling,
[2913]18
[2914]19 ceived the instructions from the number two man in his Agency,
[2915]20 || which is indeed pretty high up.
[2917]el So, I am afraid the reasons that I am not being helpful
[2919]22 is that I, too, am confused.
[2921]25 Mr. Schwarz. I just received a note indicating that
[2923]24 Mr. Bolten of the Agency has told us that both of the October
[2925]410 First Street, 5.£., Washington, 0.C. 20003
[2927]25 14 cables were authored by you. I don't know if that adds
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[2935]LO
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[2947]16
[2949]1?
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[2959]22
[2961]23
[2963]24
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[2971]143
[2973]Senator Schweiker. Let me ask counsel this.
[2975]Can we establish that Philpott did communicate ~-
[2977]Mr. Schwarz. Philpott is going to testify on Tuesday.
[2978]We have talked to him.He accepts at least one message. There
[2979]are two which purport to be signed by him, and he is not
[2980]sure if he accepted two. |
[2982]Senator Schweiker. So, he has accepted one message?
[2984]Mr. Schwarz. He accepted one message, yes.
[2986]Mr. Phillips. You wanted to ask about a meeting.
[2988]“Mr, Schwarz. It was a final meeting you had with Helms?
[2990]Mr. Phillips. Yes.
[2992]The death of General Schneider had occurred. And while,
[2993]as we said previously, things had fallen into place according
[2994]to “plan", an egregious plan, it. was absolutely my conviction
[2995]that those orders that I had been predicting, which were very,
[2996]very slim, were now completely unacceptable, one reason being
[2998]that the -inauguration was going to be in 48 hours -- not the
[3000]inauguration, but the confirmation, and so forth.
[3002]And so as I recall, there was a meeting of quite a few
[3004]of us, probably myself and fm Zio} and Mr. Broe and Mr.
[3006]Karamessines, and maybe Mr. Flannery, -~ no, I guess not, but
[3008]I do remember thatmeeting going up there and saying, if there
[3010]ever was a chance, it is now finished, and somebody has got to
[3011]say that it is finished. And so that is what I meant by that
[3013]meeting.
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[3044]410 First Street, S-E., Wasnington, 0.C. 20003
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[3048]1UP SECKEL
[3050]. 150
[3051]what happens, it is all right with me. There was an inlet insid
[3052]of Domingo which was dubbed, the Pasino,the: swimming pool,
[3053]and that is where Trujillo threw his friends and enemies
[3054]to the sharks. And he used to hang people on meat hooks in
[3055]refrigerated vaults. And it sometimes took them several days
[3056]to die. |
[3058]Miss Culbreth. You had served al
[3060]the Dominican Republic prior to the time that you served in
[3062]this position on the Track II party?
[3064]Mr. Phillips. I have, after the assassination of
[3065]Trujillo. But as a student of Latin America, I was very much
[3066]aware of this. So, there is another aspect of involvement.
[3067]U.S. policy has been to retreat from Trujillo.. We cut off our
[3068]arms aid, we brought our Ambassador out of there. So, while
[3069]those plans were going on we weren't "dealing with a friendly
[3071]nation", relations were very bad. .
[3072]Miss Culbreth. Let me ask you this. After General
[3073]| Schneider's death was his death characterized by you or by
[3074]| your colleagues in the CIA as having been an assassination? —
[3075]Mr. Phillips. It certainly was not. And I do not do
[3076]that now.
[3077]Miss Culbreth. You would not this day characterize
[3078]his death as having been an assassination?
[3080]Mr. Phillips. No. I think it was an accident that
[3082]occurred because he turned out te be such a brave man that
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[3089]Phone {Area 202) 544-6000
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[3095]12
[3097]13
[3099]WARD & PAUL
[3101]15
[3103]16
[3105]17
[3107]18
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[3125]IVP SECRET
[3126]. 151
[3128]when he looked up and he saw a bunch of people standing
[3129]around his car he drew his gun.
[3131]Miss Culbreth. Thank you.
[3133]I would like to direct your attention to this cable
[3134]that you were questioned about. Tt is the one that is dated
[3135]September27, 1970. And Mr. Schwarz read from that cable in
[3137]talking with you earlier. This was the cable which said "A ~
[3139]- false flag base of staff would be established in Santiago by
[3141]10 October".
[3142]And you were questioned About’ this. part: “These
[3143]officers will perform the delicate chores with great flap
[3145]potential which cannot be done by station personnel or any
[3147]Chilean. An example: We have a eins an who can pose as
[3148]3 intelligence officer. If he approached, funded and
[3150]ran a Chilean general, any flap would be af
[3152]In the second paragraph which was not read earlier,
[3153]I would like to read this and then put a question to you:
[3155]“Headquarters believes this false flag base, manned by
[3156]officers who have repeatedly proved their ability to operate
[3157]and recruit under false colors, will give station great
[3158]flexibility in handling delicate and fast-moving situations
[3159]securely".
[3161]To me this second paragraph indicates that these false
[3162]flag officers were people that had experience in this very
[3164]kind of intelligence operations, is that correct?
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[3172]3 152
[3173]3
[3174]= 1 Mr. Phillips. Every one of them was known to me per-
[3175]io)
[3176]2 z sonally and had worked for me.
[3177]F 5 Miss Culbreth. And had been in this kind of capacity
[3178]4 as a false flag officer?
[3179]5 Mr. Phillips. Yes.
[3180]6 Miss Culbreth. _ So,this was not some unique and unusual,
[3182]] devious approach or mechanism that was being employed in this
[3184]8 instance?
[3186]9 Mr. Phillips. The purpose of that explanation, es-
[3187]10 | pecially the second paragraph that you read, was -~- the imme-
[3188]11 |} diate reaction, as I recall, from the station when they first
[3190]12 || heard that we were given their assignment, was, come on,
[3192]13] that flap potential is great, it is not going to work, what
[3194]WARD & PAUL
[3196]14 are you talking about, this, that and the other.
[3198]15 As ai matter of fact, as I recall, @émeggice
[3200]fm! was terribly upset, because he is a sort of
[3201]i 17 |, an old pro, and he wanted to get into position, in other words,
[3202]18 | to plan for the future, and all of a sudden this new thing
[3204]19 || came in. The purpose of that cable was to explain to the
[3206]20 || station that we had been given this job to do and that we
[3207]2] || at headquarters saw that as the safest way for them to
[3208]22 || accomplish the job that they had been given with the least
[3210]23 | possibility of embarrassing the American Ambassador, and that
[3212]410 First Street, S.£., Washington, O.C. 20003
[3214]e4 | sort of thing.
[3216]25 Senator Schweiker. You said earlier, Mr. Phillips, I think
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[3224]3 156
[3227]g 1 in contact, but we didn't see it as such a sure thing; even
[3228]& e though this says, probably by General Viaux and so forthe
[3230]g 3 Miss Culbreth. Was there any question in your mind
[3232]4 as principal operating officer here in the states that there
[3234]5 was a delineation or a demarcation of function between the
[3236]6 Viaux group and the Valenzuela group, or did you regard them
[3238]7 as one big group down there accomplishing this, or did you really
[3239]8 regard them as separate groups?
[3241]9 Mr. Phillips. I very definitely regarded them as two
[3243]10 separate groups, always with the caveat that in Latin America
[3245]il some one always has a cousin who talks to someone else.
[3247]12 | But I very definitely regarded them as two separate groups,
[3249]13 and when General Viaux was called off earlier in October, I
[3251]WARD & PAUL
[3253]14 | thought that General Viaux was out of the thing, and I thought
[3254]15 that without support that he wasn't going to try anything.
[3256]16 And then we had the other group which seemed to be
[3258]17 more serious people, and with more capabilities. And I
[3260]18 very definitely regarded them as two separate groups.
[3262]19 Miss Culbreth. Let me ask just a few questions that
[3264]20 might sort of help us a little bit in our housekeeping opera-
[3265]el tions when we get to the point of trying to tie everything up
[3266]2a on these.
[3268]23 . With regard to the information that was given to you,
[3270]410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
[3272]24 the specific instructions on these cables that were sent to the
[3274]25 | Chief of Station and were directed tof¢olic
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[3283]o
[3284]2 1 Senator Hart of Michigan. Anyone else?
[3285]& Mr. Johnston. Mr. Phillips, just one last question. How
[3287]2 _ large was the room you were operating out of? You described
[3288]3 3 . .
[3290]A it as a small windowless room.
[3291]5 Mr. Phillips. About from here to your wall back there --
[3292]6 no, not that big.
[3293]7 Mr. Johnston. This was the entire control area for the
[3294]Task Force?
[3295]8
[3296]5 Mr. Phillips. That is right.
[3297]Mr. Johnston. How many people were on the Task Force
[3298]10 .
[3299]besides you?
[3301]3 7 Mr. Phillips. Of course we had two shifts of secretaries,
[3302]@ le
[3303]there was someone there all night, and that sort of thing.
[3304]z 13 >
[3305]3 ‘There were two or three secretaries, myself, Mr.
[3306]14
[3307]six, eight, something like that. -
[3308]15
[3309]Mr. Johnston. And that included the secretaries?
[3310]16
[3311]Mr. Phillips. Yes.
[3313]Mr. Johnston. Wow many action officers were in the room?
[3314]18 ;
[3315]8 Mr. Phillips. It was pretty muchWme@mounzw@ovand myself,
[3316]& 19 .
[3317]g as the real action officers. And then there were two junior
[3318]¢ 20 .
[3319]3 , officers that were assisting at the time. I think I have given
[3320]A al
[3321]= Mr. O'Flaherty their names previously. So that was four. And
[3322]3 22
[3323]FA there was someone from the CIA shop, the Counterintelligence
[3324]5 23 .
[3325]& ship, whose name I can't remember today. So that is five
[3326]° 24
[3327]. officers that I recall. And I think that there was a 6th that
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