[1]167-10014-10133
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[13]Agency Information
[15]SSCIA
[16]157-10014-10133
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[22]THE CHURCH COMMITTTEE
[23]i
[25]i
[26]'
[28]AGENCY FILENUMBER: 07-M-39 Heo.
[29]Document Information
[30]ORIGINATOR: SSCIA
[31]FROM:
[32]TO:
[33]TITLE:
[34]DATE: 03/25/1976 |
[35]PAGES: 40 "
[36]SUBIECTS : |
[38]DOCUMENT TYPE:
[39]CLASSIFICATION :
[40]RESTRICTIONS :
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[42]DATE OF LAST REVIEW :
[44]OPENING CRITERIA :
[46]COMMENTS :
[50]HY 50955 Daocld: 3242735521
[52]SSCSGO, METHODOLOGY
[53]COMMITTEE BUSINESS
[55]TRANSCRIPT
[56]Declassified
[57]1B; 1C
[59]Redact
[60]03/22/2000
[62]CCBOX 324
[64]Page 1
[66]08/07/95
[68]ee so
[71]|
[72]L Date
[73]i. Page
[74]JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM
[75]IDENTIFICATION FORM
[77]AGENCY INFORMATION
[79]SSCIA a
[81]be
[83]AGENCY 3;
[84]RECORD NUMBER : 157-10014-10133
[85]RECORDS SERIES : MISCELLANEOUS RECORDS OF THE CHURCH COMMITTTEE
[86]AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 07-M-39
[88]ORIGINATOR : SSCIA i; ,
[89]FROM : I
[90]TO : lie <
[91]TITLE : i
[92]DATE : 03/25/76 - io
[93]PAGES : 40 ii
[94]SUBJECTS : SSCSGO, METHODOLOGY
[96]COMMITTEE BUSINESS
[97]. rf
[99]DOCUMENT TYPE : TRANSCRIPT -
[100]CLASSIFICATION : TOP SECRET uF
[101]RESTRICTIONS : REFERRED it
[102]CURRENT STATUS : POSTPONED IN FULL’
[103]DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 01/05/99 .
[104]OPENING CRITERIA : 1
[106]COMMENTS CCBOX 324 Af
[108](R] - ITEM Is RESTRICTED
[110]HW 50955 Docld:324273521 Page 2
[112]TOP SECRET
[114]Vol 2 OF 3
[116]. | | | a Ghe uited ‘States Seuate Raens
[118]wit
[119]it
[120]rs
[122]‘Report of Proceedings: -
[124]va
[125]'
[126]ye
[128]Hearing. held before
[130]44
[131]i
[133]Senate Select committee to Study Governmental
[135]Operations With Respect} to Intelligence: Activities
[137]|
[138]‘|
[139]‘|
[142]'
[144]| '
[146]|
[148]“Thursday, March 25, 1976
[149]Washington, D.C. :
[151](Stenotype Tape. and Waste turned’ over
[152]to the Committee for destruction).
[153]Eh .
[157][ o
[158]i: . : a
[159]“WARD & PAUL. |
[161]oe ; 410 FIRST STREET, 8. EB.
[162]oe | |. WASHINGTON, D. C. 20008:
[164](202) 544-6000
[166]TOP SECRET
[168]“HW 50955 Bocld: 32742735271 Page 3
[170]a NATIONAE: SECURITY: INFORMATIOI
[172]Unauthorized Disclosure subject-|
[173]to Criminal Sanctions: .
[179]. ot
[180]Be
[181]. 7
[182]i
[184]. Siz hee.
[186]i
[188]pets tae Asha ani sade
[190]he paced Sie Bet
[192]WARD/smnl
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[218]TOP SECRET itis
[220]a
[221]of
[223]COMMITTEE MEETING
[225]Thursday, March 257 1976
[227]i
[229]f
[232]A:
[234]i
[236]hd / ‘United States. Senate, .
[238]Select Committee to Study Governmental
[239].
[240]hi
[242]chips . Intelligence Activities,
[244]Operations with Respect to
[246]i a Washington, D.C.
[248]The Committee met, pursuant to notice, ‘at 2:43 0 "clock
[250]: t
[251]p.m., in Room S~ 407, the Capitol, the Honorable Frank . church
[253]iF
[254](Chairman) presiding, a
[256]rch (presiding), Mondale, Huddleston,
[258]Present: Senators Ch
[260]Hart of Michigan, Morgan, art of Colorado, Tower, Mathias,
[262]i
[263]ia
[264]' - 8
[266]Baker and Schweiker.
[268]Also present: Willian G. Miller, Staff Director; Frederick
[270]Poy
[273]- O. Sewharz, sri, Chie£, ounsel:; and Charles Kirbow,
[274]lizabeth Culbreath, Michael Madican,: Charles ‘Lombard, William
[275]ader, Ted ‘Rolson, Burt Wides, Walter Ricks, Rick Inderfurth,
[276]ohn Bayly, David Aaron, Elliot Maxwell, Joseph Dennin,
[277]argaret Carpenter, Martha Talley, Paul Wallach and Jim
[279]ohnston, Professional Staff Members.
[281]|
[282]TOP SECRET
[283]. ot WARD & PAUL
[284]423521 Page 4.
[287]sol
[289]VP SECRET 2
[291]1 PROCEEDINGS
[292]. . 4 . .
[293]ok . . .,
[294]2: The Chairman. We will soon have a quorum. Why don't
[295]3 | we begin with the Recommendation No. 43 on page 77, having
[296]on 7
[298]4 || to do with academics. =|
[300]5 My understanding is that this recommendation has been
[302]6 || redrafted along the Lines! of the Committee's recommendations, a da
[306]a:
[307]al
[308]“if
[310]7 || as it now stands it calls; for the CIA academics and the
[312]i
[315]8 institution to be informed, and: for any student being recruited
[317]g || to be so informed.
[319]“10 There is a choice in} the latter case in informing him
[321]Hl
[323]11 || before he is paid or informing him before he leaves the U.S.
[324]12 Will you explain that to he, please?
[325]13° Mr. Aaron. In ‘the course of our - discussion about the
[327]14, recruitment of students off campuses, there were two cate-
[329]15 || gories of concern. One was for the integrity of the institu--
[332]16 tions themselves, and the| second was, in turn, for the
[334]17 || Students that might be inpotved.
[335]“48 _ To take the second one first, the Committee received
[337]19 _ testimony that some foreisn students recruited | as agents for
[338]. oy
[340]20 the CIA were. brought into) kind of a holding status at a certain |
[341]21 point in which they were working for, if you will, CIA
[342]22 proprietaries or CIA front organizations where they might
[344]. boa, . : . a
[345]23 || conduct some operational activity, provide some information,
[346]a , ;
[348]at - Le
[349]o4 | under the impression that) they were not working for the CIA
[352]H
[354]a5 | but for a company or, I think as one put it, I think, a group
[356]‘ToP SECRET
[358]: WARD & PAUL
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[381]“|. ; i
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[384]pretenses. !
[386]‘into this sort of -- =|;
[388]TOP SECRET —sis
[390]i
[391]of investors, le
[392]|
[394]|
[395]Concern was expressed by the Committee in . considering
[397]this testimony that this)might be rather severe for the student
[398]‘ .
[400]once he discovered the fact he had been working for the CIA,
[402]or should his governnent||find that out, so that it was an
[403]al . ; .
[404]element of coercion to hilze somebody under, if you will, false
[406]lt
[408](3
[409]a
[412]nthen, in effect says that we may
[414]That second proviso
[416]ore
[418]pitch and recruit a stuallne as an agent, but you must, when you
[419]do that, when you reallyijbring him into an operational relation
[420]A
[422]. . na .
[423]ship with the Agency, hejjsnourd be so informed and not brought
[430]oa nit
[431]ce
[433]The Chairman. Let's igo off the record.
[434](Discussion off the]/record.)
[435]aoa)
[437]The Chairman. The vestion that I have on this recommen-
[439]dation is why shouldn't. the foreign student béing recruited
[441]Ayes
[443]by the CIA be informed ra}
[445]his relationship with the CIA
[447]at the time. that that relationship is established?
[449]“why do you. condition ‘it upon payment or leaving the
[451]country? . oh)
[452]‘Senator Huddleston. well, I was going to say there are
[454]many, many initial contatts that do not advance maybe much
[456]further than that, and fox the CIA to have to be- exposed maybe
[458]on each-of those might net be reasonable. What. we have tried
[460]to do is to make the wittilngness be known about | the. time that
[462]To? SECRET
[464]Wah & PAUL
[466]10
[467]al
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[487]HY 450955 Dortd:
[489]TOP SECRET =,
[491]1 | |
[492]they are to perform some | ervice. Up to that. time they are
[494]s
[495]still maybe vrospects, ville they may not have been recruited,
[496]édh|a0 you: ‘think the Committee should
[497]adopt of these two crt
[499]n
[501]The Chairman. Wh
[503]t
[504]Mr. Aaron. “Actually, one could use both of these, I thin
[506]the point is that the danger to the student, if there is any,
[507]. i
[508]comes when he. leaves the United States, either to return to
[509]-his own country, or perhaps someplace else, but the commitment
[511]or involvement which ought. to be witting really needs to come
[512]ed . :
[513]when he starts being paid, when he becomes in fact, or has
[514]a real relationship with! the Agency. You could really establis
[516]ah
[518]both standards, because iit might well be that he could leave
[519]the country but not havel et been paid, and not: really have
[520]a relationship that woe yehing more than kind-of an asso-
[521]Lola :
[523]ciation or an option, something of that character,
[524]The Chairman. wet!t|
[526]as to these two optionsalt |
[528]a
[530]‘what is the will of the Committee
[534]Senator mudaieston. helt this represents a distillation
[536]of what we have been proposing as Senator. Mondate develops
[538]for us, I believe, and i would move that we adopt this report,
[539]* or .
[541]‘and use both of these, an either/or.
[543]_ oot _
[545]The Chairman. Whichever comes first, huh, either before
[546]- Ah a |
[547]he is given payment of ll kind or leaves the United States,
[548]. a ; iat ;
[549]whichever may ceout s8cap}
[550]: yt
[553]Would that be satisfactory to the Committee?
[555]TOP SECRET
[557]_ WARD & PAUL
[559]Laoase1 Page 7
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[570]1?
[574]19
[575]20
[576]21
[578]22
[579]23
[581]24
[583]decision of the Committee,
[585]in opposition to this? < |
[587]Ik:
[588]. ot
[589]“All right. wt
[591]TOP SECRET | :
[593]4
[594]dbjection, then, that will be the
[595]' _
[597]What else do you have?
[599]Mr. Aaron. We have two other recommendations.
[601]Senator Hart of Colorado. Mr. Chairman, could I be recordad
[603]The Chairman.
[605]as in opposition.
[607]well.
[609]Mr. Madigan.
[611]The Chairman.
[613]opposition as well.
[615]Senator Mathias.
[617]re
[618]in
[619]an
[621]. | : ‘
[622]Yes, Senator Hart of Colorado is recorded
[624]b
[625]bog
[626]moa
[629]an
[631]Senator, there is a proxy in opposition as
[633]i
[634]Senator Baker wants to be recorded in
[636]|
[638]| a
[639]Twould, I think Senator Goldwater had
[641]Hs
[643]oo i
[644]a very strong proxy that)|f) read into the record on this subject
[646]at the last meeting.
[648]aH .
[649]ie |
[650]aus
[651]et
[653]Mr. Kirbow. Against) restricting any use of academics.
[655]. Senator Mathias. T}}don' £ have a proxy with him today, but
[657]I feel his position ought to be noted.
[659]' The Chairman.
[661]very | lwell, then, with those particular
[663]reservations. imade part ‘of the record, the Committee will
[665]ul.
[667]"approve the amended Recommendation No. 43.
[669]We move then to Recommendation 45 on page 78.
[672]Mr. Aaron, We attenpted ‘to redraft this along the lines
[674]- Wil;
[675]as we were instructed, believe.
[679]HY 50955 Docld:3
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[683]As it came out,
[685]Page 6&
[687]i
[688]it ‘would. prohibit the subsidy of any
[690]TOP SECRET
[692]WARD & PAUL
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[715]25 |
[717]HW 50955 Docla:3
[719]publication,
[721]' to.the CIA.
[723]423521
[727]i
[728]fl
[730]i
[732]writing, publication, dis
[734]or. its territories, of jah
[735]- I.
[736]It has” been pointed out t
[738]the writing of a -book, ey
[739]'
[741]United States, to be ‘publ
[743]4
[744]i)
[746]States, even if they were
[748]Now, that may be tor
[749]|
[751]|
[752]Committee intended, and 's
[756]to accomplish. vil
[757]A
[759]As I understand iti,
[761]it is possible that what,
[763]any writing, publicatidn}:
[764]ill
[766]would have been the Pr
[770]we can]
[772]th
[773]Wl
[775]Why
[777]that is correct,
[779]Saas
[781]Senator Morgan.
[783]The Chairman.
[785]that by statute the CIA|s
[787]to
[789]Hi
[791]ate
[792]here, to get a better unde
[794]a
[796]stribution within the United States
[798]4 book, magazine, article and so forth.
[799]i
[800]t |
[802]hat this formulation would prevent
[804]en in a foreign ‘language, within the
[805]7
[807]ished abroad and ‘distributed abroad,
[809]or any such materials from being published within the United
[810]. why
[811]an a .
[813]| distributed abroad.
[814]estrictive and go beyond what the
[815]o therefore we wanted to raise this _
[817]Srstanding of ‘what we were attempting
[819]|i A
[821]iin we were -~ it was not clear, but
[822]che Committee had in mind was that
[824]for distribution in the United States
[826]p
[827]i
[829]riate formulation for this, and it
[831]ke a very easy fix.
[833]a
[834]a
[836]yj pwouldn’t it?
[838]|
[839]wouldn't it accomplish it if we say -
[841]i
[843]hould be prohibited from subsidizing
[845]or distribution within the United
[847]the writing or production}
[849]cad
[851]States or its territories
[857]i
[859]- an
[861]Wouldn't that cake
[862]in
[864]If that
[866]TO
[868]film, or
[870]Mr. Aaron.
[872]Page 9.
[874]video or audio
[876]of’ any book, magazine, article,
[878]tape unless attributed
[880]care of it?
[882]is what the that
[884]® SECRET
[886]WARD & PAUL
[888]Committee intends,
[891]1 || would take care of it...
[894]|
[895]|
[896]2 | _ Senator Mondale. Publicly attributed.
[897]-
[898]y
[899]V
[905]° Mr. Aaron. “Public y
[907]4 ; Senator Huddleston ° That is getting at what really we
[909]5 || are trying to do. ne
[911]6 The Chairman. How) aout the balance of 45, "nor should
[913]OL aces
[915]7 the CIA be permitted to | pdertake any activity to accomplish -
[917]8 | indirectly such distributfon within the United States or its
[921]9 territories. en
[922]10 | Well, I think that f¢llows and should be a part of it. .
[923]1 [> . a
[924]it ' Very well. - |
[925]12 . Senator Mathias. mci} Chairman, I wonder, while we are in
[927]13 || this area, Lf you could refresh my recollection, whether -
[929]14 || "grantees" in No. 44 appha
[930]ra
[932]ty 4
[933]i Hp
[935]es to both foreign and American
[937]15 || grantees.
[940]Te.
[943]j
[944]+ de
[945]4
[949]16 Mr. Bader. Yes, it] would ; Senator, under this language, —
[950]17 because | the Fulbright arbdram or the -- such -government~ sponsor d |
[952]re
[954]18 programs to include, too}, |include foreigners. As I understood
[957]19 || ait from the discussion of /the Committee, ‘the intent here was
[959]20 || to ensure that public funds that were publicly devoted to
[961]1
[962]| 2
[964]2liia specific purpose were $0. spent and that. was the issue that
[966]Lae
[968]22 was involved here, was |thd! appropriated funds for educational
[970]Ls
[971]I
[973]23 programs be kept to educat zional programs and not to be used
[974]|
[976]24 operationally. But an language here would certainly include
[978]TOP SECRET
[980]WARD & PAUL.
[982]25 || foreigners..
[984]BW 50955 DoclId: 32423521 Page 10
[986]10
[990]12
[992]13.
[994]14
[996]15
[998]16
[1000]1?
[1002]18
[1004]19
[1006]- 20
[1008]21
[1009]22
[1011]23
[1013]R24
[1022]‘Mr. Maxwell... Billl!
[1024]TGP SECRET
[1026]would this prohibit the use of any
[1028]individual person who is sponsored by an educational or
[1030]cultural program, although not fully funded by the Federal
[1032]a M
[1035]Senator Tower, This | is a question I wanted ko ask.
[1037]Could one of our nétworks pick up a portion of a film -
[1039]a
[1042]broadcast abroad By the ‘CIA and run it as part of a documentary
[1044]to show what they are doing and that kind of thing?
[1046]“The Chairman. I tHink the way it has been modified that
[1048]is not a problem. This says "by statute the CIA should be
[1050]prohibited from subsidizing writings," or production. |
[1052]od _ - a
[1053]Senator Tower. That what I mean, you are not precluded
[1055]from showing it, but it should not be done under CIA auspices
[1057]or government auspices. in
[1059]'
[1061]4]
[1063]The Chairman. Andis should not. be written for the
[1065]We
[1067]. |
[1068]Senator Tower. vel
[1070]. purpose of being shown in this country. -
[1072]_Mr. Aaron. Nor under. the indirect clause, I think, nor
[1074]should the CIA. go to cas and say "weve . got this wonderful
[1076]1
[1078]4
[1080]“eiim." . yo
[1082]- The Chairman. Using
[1085]it back. That would be;a i
[1086]also. .
[1088]a
[1089]if.
[1090]i
[1091]i
[1092]i
[1093]H
[1095]network for the purpose of bringing
[1097]indirect way, and that would be wron
[1099]Senator Tower. TI understand, yes.
[1101]The Chairman, Well,
[1103]then, if everybody understands the
[1105]TOP SECRET
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[1109]WARD & PAUL
[1111]1 way we have recommended)
[1113]2 ‘the Committee approves i
[1115]3 | Let us go, then, to: the next subject, the structural
[1119]4 changes, the role of the ber on page 61.
[1121]5 "Mr, Aaron. I'm sorry, Mr, Chairman. We have one other
[1123]t
[1126]6 question, that would be: Recommendation 47. The Committee
[1128]pes
[1131]7 || agreed to extend --
[1133]8 Mr. Kirbow. Excuse me, Mr. Aaron. Senator Mathias's
[1135]9 question was on recommendation 44,
[1136]10 The Chairman. Were you satisfied with the answer?
[1137]1 Senator Mathias. “well, the question that was left
[1139]L _—
[1140]12 floating was what about a student who. is in a program which is-
[1141]13 | primarily funded by some private institution, although there
[1142]-14 || may be some small element’ -- |
[1143]15 |. Mr. Maxwell. For instance, any major university that
[1144]16 sponsored an individual coming under 44, which receives
[1145]LW Federal Covernment funds; night be barred under a broad
[1146]18 || reading of 44, and it-might be helpful to make that intentc
[1147]19 clearer in 44, if that is a concern of the Committee.
[1149]bey
[1151]20 Mr. Aaron. I think. this goes to the grantee as opposed
[1153]21 | to the institution.
[1155]22] Now, if it is true’ =
[1156]23 | “the Chairman. re is tne grantee that is receiving
[1157]PA ‘funds. | :
[1159]. 25 Mr. Aaron. if you. have a grantee receiving funds from
[1161]Top SECRET
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[1166]TOP SECRET (el
[1168]1 || more than one source, then he receives them frcem more than one
[1169]“source, but if he is a grantee of a Federal program --
[1171]ss) Mr. Maxwell. But the problem is receiving funds through
[1172]. too a
[1174]4 educational and/or cultural programs.
[1176]5 . For instance, if he were totally funded by the University
[1177]6 | of Maryland, : which received ‘financial support from the United
[1179]7 States Government, arguably he is covered by that. re is not
[1181]8 that he is receiving Federal grants. I think that is the
[1183]g intention.
[1185]ti
[1187]10} ss Mr. Aaron. It should; be U.S. Government educational --_
[1188]: oo ,
[1189]alld. Mr. Bader, Would that help?
[1190]. ~ nan
[1191]le The. Chairman. Through educational and/or cultural
[1193]135 || programs sponsored by the| United States Government. Wouldn't
[1195]14 || that take care of it? tt
[1197]i yo
[1199]15 _ Senator Huddleston} | Well, grantees who are receiving
[1201]16 directly from the united Leates Government or through education 1
[1204]17 | or cultural programs supported by the United States Government.
[1206]18 _ The ‘Chairman. Sponsored by.
[1207]19 Senator: Huddleston. Well, in other words, whether he is
[1209]/ 20 getting them directly himseL£ asa grantee, or whether he is
[1210]el receiving them from an ‘educational program that is itself
[1212]22 supported by. the ‘Federal Government.
[1214]23 | - Senator Mathias. z|Gon' t want to prolong this, but what
[1215]24 about a program which ig|really directed right at. this area
[1217]25 which has been referred to, the armed services military
[1219]TOP SECRET
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[1250]mc >P ‘SECRET | re
[1251]hoy
[1252]an
[1253]educational operate? |
[1254]Mr. Bader. I'm sorry, sir?
[1255]Mr. Aaron. Well, let me see if I understand the different
[1257]examples. The student leader grant or the political leader
[1259]grant that the State Department has where they bring foreigners
[1262]Hi i
[1264]to the United States for a: period of time, presumably to ©
[1265]acquaint them with the country and what have you, under this
[1266]Language those people while on the grant would be immune from
[1268]being recruited by the CIA. This doesn't mean that they
[1270]‘couldn't recruit them at some other point in their careers, but
[1272]that during. the period of ‘that grant they would not be in
[1274]| effect brought. here and! ised for that purpose. That is, I
[1276]|
[1277]think, part of the intent, of this. particular provision.
[1279]Senator Mathias. Let me give you ‘another example. Say .
[1280]ood de . ;
[1281]you have an Iranian naval officer who comes over here to
[1282]ad
[1283]: : ; | |.
[1284]Fort McNair. . a
[1286]‘Is he fair game?
[1288]“Mr. Miller. That is not educational or cultural. It
[1290]would be military.
[1292]Senator Huddleston. I believe if he were going through
[1293]the war College --
[1295]senator Tower. rf he were going through the National
[1296]War College, how do you classify that?
[1298]Senator Mathias. up cowie come .to the industrial base -
[1300]or civilian --
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[1310]1 Mr. Kirbow. He could go to the Industrial College or the
[1313]1 H
[1314]i
[1316]2 | War College.
[1318]3 Senator Schweiker. Can you exclude military training?
[1319]4 Senator Mathias. TI don't know. TI don't know what you
[1320]5 want.
[1322]6 i Senator Huddleston. We are training a lot of them or
[1324]9 we entertain a lot of them.
[1325]8 Senator Schweiker, It seems to me you have to put some
[1327]‘9 proviso about military training in there.
[1329]10 | “The Chairman. Well, it depends upon what the policy shoul
[1330]11 || be. I had thought the attempt here was to immunize any foreigner —
[1331]12 || who comes here on a program sponsored by the Government of the
[1332]13 United States and receives a grant for that program, to
[1334]14 || immunize him during that period from being recruited by the
[1336]15 || CIA. — cap . | 7 .
[1338]16 ' Senator Schweiker.’ |Well, if he is here for military -
[1340]17 || Purposes, then we know it is a military relationship, I would
[1342]18 think that is suspect. , og
[1343]19 : The Chairman. Would you want him subject to recruitment?
[1344]20 . Senator Schweiker. Well, if he comes over here militarily;
[1346]21 you are so close to him, what is the difference?
[1347]i
[1349]22 Mr. Aaron. Well, I:think the point of the prohibition
[1351]|
[1352]2% really is this, that these programs are created for one
[1354]| , -
[1355]04 || Particular purpose. They are considered by the Congress for
[1357]25 that particular purpose and the funds are voted for that
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[1366]1 particular purpose. If: the programs are then used for another
[1367]2 purpose by the Government, that was considered and suggested
[1368]3 || that that second purpose’ should not be used.
[1369]4 Now, if you want to) exempt certain categories here and
[1370]‘5 || Say, well, the military is a different thing, you can ao that.
[1371]6 | You can find a way to express that. |
[1372]7 The Chairman. Well, it could be done. If you want to
[1373]8 recruit foreign military officers, we can bring them over
[1374]9 to put them through the War College.
[1375]10 Mr. Miller. What other training?
[1376]11 Senator Huddleston., Well, we have a steady Stream at
[1377]12 | Fort Knox, Kentucky of military people. I don't know what kind
[1378]13 | of training. Most of them are, of course, are from. friendly
[1379]14 {| nations to start with.
[1380]15 “I don't know, you: know, military. once a person puts on
[1381]16 || @ uniform, he becomes fair game in a number of ways. He gives
[1382]17 up a lot of protections that civilians have. |
[1383]18 Senator Schweiker. ' You allow him to recruit--- under
[1384]19 | other policies here we allow them to. recruit foreign military
[1385]F ; -
[1386]20 officers because I think] that's an even more valid relationship
[1387]21 than the students, but: I. make it clear that what we don't |
[1388]229 || want. to do, which is to abort our honest to goodness cultural’
[1389]23 || exchange and other programs. | | |
[1390]24 7 rhe Chairman. This’ could be done ‘by saying "By statute
[1391]25 ‘the CIA should be prohibited from using operationally grantees
[1392]i. =
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[1394]programs is much clearer. .
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[1429]Senator Schweiker.; |Can we talk about Defense and military
[1431]training programs at the} same time? It seems to me that's
[1433]i‘alguy over here and educating him on
[1435]the criteria, bringing
[1436]defense and military mist be to the advantage of our military,
[1437]so you know what the relationship is to begin with. You are
[1438]not unwittingly using thé guy. You are pretty witting.
[1439]If the guy goes tdj the american War College, he is pretty
[1441]fair game. : ; |
[1443]. The Chairman. You Gan write an exception for the American
[1444]War College and all of the military and civilian personnel .
[1445]receiving training undér| the auspices of the United States :
[1447]armed services who are fair game.
[1448]|
[1451](General laughter.)/.
[1453]Senator Huddleston. Except I.agree with Dave, that is
[1455]a little awkward to zero in on this particular group. Couldn't
[1457]we fina some. way -- |
[1459]Mr. Kirbow. Mr. chairman, I think it is not, intended
[1460]this. apply only to foreign students coming this way; you
[1461]include all american students going in the other direction, :
[1462]or under any other grant. |
[1464]Mr. Aaron. The intention of the provision initially, as.
[1465]a matter of fact, its primary effect was for American students -
[1466]traveling abroad.
[1468]| Senator Tower. Well, I see no problem with that. I know
[1470]‘I.don't have the votes here, but --. ‘
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[1480]1 The Chairman, Which part do you have? . -
[1481]2 7 Senator Tower. Well, not being able to use American
[1482]5 students abroad on some grant.to gather intelligence, when
[1485]4 most of the people the damned Soviets send over here on these
[1487]5 cultural exchanges are really clued into the government
[1489]6 program, indoctrinated.and briefed thoroughly before they get
[1490]. if .
[1492]|
[1494]7 | here. I am not going to/tie our hands like that. The rest
[1496]8 of you can, but I'm not: |going to.
[1498]9 _ I will write a vigorous dissent on that.
[1499]10 |. Senator Morgan. May I make a comment on that?
[1500]Ll I'm inclined to agree, and I'm also inclined to agree
[1502]12 | that we are going so far jin our foreign intelligence that
[1504]13 || we are endangering the whole report, so you make that kind of
[1505]14 || an argument on the loot of the Senate on this and on two or
[1506]15 three « other things. oh fot pitking at any of them. I am
[1508]16 just sort of accepting the recommendations of the Subcommittee,
[1510]1? ‘but my reaction has been that maybe we are getting a little
[1512]'
[1515]18 | bit. so far afield that ‘we may’ endanger the acceptance of our
[1516]~ 19 whole report.
[1517]20 _" The Chairman. . Senator Huddleston?
[1519]ei i ' Senator Huddleston. I would just say this, that the
[1522]t
[1524]22 “Subcommittee has been cognizant of that situation.. I think it
[1526]i .
[1527]2%, || because of that that soe of these recommendations are already
[1533]24 softer than some of us. Fong would be appropriate, and this
[1535]25 || is one of the fields. There was a considerable amount of Suppo t
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[1573]of the idea: that dcademics be off limits, period, and students
[1574]in order to protect the integrity of our entire academic
[1575]community, and it is the realization that if we continued to
[1576]close the possibilities! for recruitment, and the’ adverse
[1577]effect that that would ‘have, maybe, on our ability to gather
[1579]intelligence, that some) /o'f us backed off of this, what would ;
[1581]|
[1582]be the optimum, we think,! position to take. So this already
[1583]represents somewhat of a retreat from the principle that some
[1585]would like to see established, and in this Gase I think we
[1587]Vis ; a,
[1588]are again faced with the /question of whether or not we want
[1590]a government-sponsored program to enjoy a high level of integrity
[1593]1
[1595]so that the people who are participating in it and the American
[1596]taxpayer who is supporting it can have some confidence that it
[1597]announced purposes of it are. .
[1598]And if we don't do jthat, if we permit it to be used as
[1600]an operational intelligence operation, then it seems to me like
[1602]we ought to’ announce that, that that ought to be one of the
[1603]purposes so stated in the grant to start with, while we are
[1604]Likely to. get an education, “it is also likely if we can we:
[1605]will have you gather intelligence for us.
[1607]Senator Morgan. Well, Dee, I think you are getting off
[1608]base for us. There is nothing that: says they are ‘required to
[1609]do it.
[1612]H
[1614]' Senator Huddleston., That is correct.
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[1645]Senator Morgan. In other ‘words, we are not: going to
[1646]condition this grant on --
[1648]Senator Huddleston. Well --
[1650]Senator Morgan. Let me finish out, now. What you are
[1651]leading up to is you are saying we are going to condition this
[1652]grant on your cooperation with other governmental. agencies.
[1654]Senator Huddleston. I. -am saying that is not beyond the
[1655]realm of possibility in some cases, if we don't put some
[1656]prohibition.
[1658]Senator Morgan. Well, I think there may be times,
[1659]especially in the light of what we heard in the past year,
[1661]when, you know, we might make that assumption, but I don't
[1663]think that on the whole when you are.dealing with the United
[1665]States Government that you can really assume ~-
[1667]Senator Hudddleston. But you can't assume he is not,
[1669]either.
[1671]The Chairman. But what worries me is you get a student
[1672]who in good faith goes abroad for the purpose of study and
[1673]qualifies for a Government grant, and he depends upon that
[1674]money and then he, when he gets over there. and wants to complet
[1675]his studies, he is approached, and he can be approached in
[1677]such a way that he can be made to feel that if he does not.
[1679]throw in with the CIA and do this and that, he may. find that
[1681]the grant will be cut off or he can't complete.the study as he
[1683]intended. He feels a certain dependency upon the money that
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[1711]I assume part of that came from agitation at the time in '67
[1713]and Senator Fulbright's own determination that that program not
[1715]be used. for operational purposes.
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[1721]he is receiving, and he has an expectation he wants to fulfill.
[1722]And thus he is in a very vulnerable position when he is
[1723]approached. - | .
[1725]Senator Morgan. -Well, that is a persuasive argument, but
[1726]let me ask you, have we had any evidence that that sort of
[1727]thing has happened? _
[1729]The Chairman. Well, I don't know.
[1731]Senator Morgan. Well, it is a very persuasive argument,
[1732]but I just wonder if we should, in the absence of abuse on
[1733]that part, whether or not we should go this far.
[1735]The Chairman. What. about it, Mr. Bader?
[1737]Mr. nader. Mr. Chairman, I might say in partial response
[1738]to Senator Tower's remarks that the Agency's basic instruction
[1739]for the operational use of individuals, 50-10, specifically.
[1740]prohibits the operational use of Fulbright grantees, ‘They have
[1742]already made that decision in 1967, and reconfirmed in 1973.
[1744]Tt was the original intent of this Language to extend
[1745]that prohibition, which is now a matter of “public record, this ..--
[1746]actually, that part ‘of the instruction is in the public record
[1747]now under the Freedom of Information Act, that part of 50-10
[1748]that talks about Fulbright grantees. rt was the original |
[1750]intent of the recommendation that is now before you to extend
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[1780]that prohibition on Fulbright grantees to all of those under
[1781]the Fulbright-Hayes legislation. Under the specifics of the
[1782]Agency's interpretation, it makes a distinction between those
[1783]students, or graduate students, or professors selected by the
[1784]Board of Foreign Scholarships, and the rest -- and the rest
[1785]includes cultural leader grants and the like.
[1787]Now, perhaps it might be the sensible thing in the
[1789]language like this to confine it to the Fulbright~Hayes Act,
[1791]‘which is the basic legislation which deals with this.
[1793]Senator Schweiker. How many others would you have outside
[1794]of that? Would you have a lot of other programs?.
[1796]ir. Bader. Other programs?
[1798]Senator Schweiker. What percent of the total picture is
[1800]Math age
[1802]the Fulbright-Hayes Act?
[1804]‘Mr. Bader. I really wouldn't know, Senator. I think it
[1805]is. the major part. of it, actually. You could have a National
[1806]Endowment for the tfumanities fellowship in waieh a person would
[1807]go overseas, and this, under the language we now have before |
[1808]you, that would include’ those individuals.
[1810]The Chairman. Well, I can see how vulnerable a grantee
[1812]might be when approached, and if we have already written
[1814]into law a prohibition ‘that relates to the Fulbright scholars,
[1815]I-should think it ought to apply to any others that are _
[1816]receiving educational or cultural grants from the United
[1817]States. _
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[1853]Senator Tower. That is not a Law, that is a regulation.
[1854]Mr. Aaron. And cIa's own regulation. —
[1855]. The Chairman. But then it was adopted as part of the law,
[1856]r thought you said. | :
[1857]Mr. Bader. No, sir. I said it. has been made public
[1859]through the Freedom of Information Act. This is an internal
[1861]‘directive of the Agency, and as the Senators know, those.
[1863]directives are certainly subject to change, so there really
[1865]are, in effect, two basic parts of this recommendation. One
[1867]was to commit the present internal prohibitions of the CIA to
[1868]law, and then to extend it, and . the issue before the Committee,
[1869]in ‘addition to whether there should be an extension, is sort
[1870]of how far and what language shoulda be used to portray or.
[1871]convey that prohibition? |
[1873]Senator Baker. Mr! Chairman, do we have anything from _
[1875]the Agency on this?
[1877]' Senator Huddleston. . think you've got to weigh, to some
[1879]‘extent, the value of the two programs, of our cultural exchange
[1881]programs' importance. I think the mblic knowledge of any one
[1882]individual becomes known as a. “SPY. who is associated with a
[1883]program, it has a | devastating ‘effect, in my judgment, on the
[1884]program and on all students who are participating in it. I.
[1886]just think the risk is too great.
[1888]Senator Tower. Well, my question at that point would be
[1890]4
[1892]to “what extent ‘does our cultural exchange program impact | on
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[1900]L people behind the Iron Curtain, to convince them as people that
[1901]2. | -we are nice folks, that they ought to influence their governmen
[1902]3 || to be a little bit more’ friendly toward us? tt doesn't have
[1904]4 any impact, at ‘all ina totalitarian state, none.
[1906]5 It is really a one way street.
[1908]6 ||  ~Now, I am all for cultural exchange, simply because I
[1910]” like to watch Russian ballet dancers, especially females, but
[1912]8 the fact of the matter is cultural change does more to soften
[1914]g | up the American public toward the Iron Curtain than the
[1916]10 other way around.
[1918]ll The Chairman. That is an argument as to the merits of
[1920]12 cultural exchange, and now you view ballerinas, but, the questio
[1921]13 | here we face is whether or not we should put American students
[1923]in a position where they feel «hey must -=
[1925]14
[1927]s Senator Tower. T don't think they must he coerced.
[1929]16 The Chairman. But there is an element of intimidation
[1931]17 “involved if they are receiving a grant from the government.
[1933]18 Senator Tower. Well, I would favor a specific prohibitio
[1934]19 against making that a condition of getting a grant or scholarship
[1935]“50 of some sort. |
[1937]21 Senator Baker. Or continuing one. |
[1938]| - Senator Tower. Or continuing one.
[1940]23 Senator Hart of Michigan, Well, John, what do you say
[1942]to Dee's point? If my roommate turns out to be a spy, it is
[1944]24
[1945]85 automatically assumed I am, and every guy in the outfit. What
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[1977]does this do to the American that is over there, all of
[1978]them? I don't think that is right.
[1980]Senator Tower, well, I think in many instances American
[1981]operations abroad that have been completely innocent have been
[1982]labeled as spy operations for propaganda purposes by the other
[1983]side, and they will do that if they choose to. They will-not
[1985]do it if they choose not to do it.
[1987]The Chairman. But you have many of these students. who are
[1988]not inside Russia or in a Communist country. We have education 1
[1989]and cultural programs in Third world countries and in the
[1990]western world.
[1992]Senator rower. I understand that...
[1994]The Chairman. And there, if someone is caught engaging in
[1995]a CIA action of some kind, then everybody is contaminated,
[1996]The whole thing then becomes suspect in France or England foha
[1997]wherever it might be.
[1999]Senator Tower. what if the grantee comes to CIA and.
[2000]says, I have made some contacts over here that I think would
[2001]be of value in terms of ‘passing intelligence along to you?
[2003]Are you going to turn him down and Say, no, you are ona -
[2004]Fulbright grant, we can't let you do that?
[2006]| Senator Huddleston. No, they could use his information to
[2008]contact somebody else. He would not necessarily be operational
[2010]Mr. Bader. | Operational use, under the Agency's definition,
[2012]has two. major elements to it. First is that the purposes to
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[2021]1 be accomplished, and objectives, are established by the Agency,
[2023]2 and the second is that the individual involved is tasked to
[2025]3 || do that, ordered to do it, if you please.
[2027]4 . ‘Operational use does. not, by the agency's definition,
[2029]5 involve individuals who would come to the Central Intelligence
[2031]6 Agency to voluntarily give whatever information that they
[2033]” think would be of value ‘to the Agency, the kind of information
[2035]8 that the Contacts Division normally would like to have.
[2037]9 Senator Tower. Yes,’ but once having done that, the Agency
[2038]10 || determines this person is valuable and they observe this ..
[2040]LL |} person and they put him under a control officer.
[2042]12 Mr. Bader. ‘Then he would come under this condition. That
[2044]13 || would be operational usel:
[2046]14 Senator Huddleston. 'It would not include a debriefing of
[2048]15 | him when he came back. . | .
[2049]16 Mr. Kirbow. Nor could he be asked to go to a single meeting
[2050]17 || more and report back on, the very same subject that he just
[2052]“48 reported on, which might be a critical target to the United”
[2054]19 || States Governments' national security.
[2056]20 ; Mr. Bader. Once he is operational, he has to accomplish a-
[2058]21 particular task or purpose, then he is operationally used under
[2060]ee |) the terms,
[2062]23 ; Senator Tower. Even if he initiates the contact with
[2063]7 - :
[2065]24 the Agency in the first place.
[2067]25 _ Mr. Bader. Only, Senator, if there is a second stage in
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[2077]2 - senator Tower. I know. The second. stage may be the most
[2078]3. important.
[2080]4 Mr, Bader. It certainly may, and at that stage, under the
[2081]5 Agency's definition, he would be operationally --
[2083]6 Senator Huddleston. I can't believe the Agency wouldn't
[2085]” have another entre of some sort.
[2086]8 Senator Tower. What kind of widespread abuse are we
[2088]9 trying to prevent?
[2090]10 Has there been widespread abuse?»
[2092]li Mr. Bader. No, sir,, there has not.
[2094]12 . Senator Tower. There has not been.
[2096]13 -Mr. Aaron. This occurs.
[2098]14 : Mr. Bader. This occurs , yes.
[2100]15 Senator Hart of Michigan. What is the benefit -~ there
[2102]16.1] has been no abuse, but what benefit?
[2103]W Senator Mondale. ‘Tt's not -~ that's not the word. It's
[2105]18 not no abuse. It's not widespread.
[2107]i
[2109]19 “Mr. Bader. - The term is "not widespread."
[2111]20 Senator Tower. I baia "widespread."
[2113]21 Mr. Bader. Yes, 1] said "widespread."
[2115]20° senator Hart of Michigan. The question is, what
[2118]93 || benefits? Do we know? ‘
[2120]24 | ' Senator Huddleston. “That is very difficult to ascertain.
[2122]25 Senator Tower. Significant abuse? Any record of abuse?
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[2131]1 . What record of abuse do we have?
[2132]2 - Senator Hart of Michigan. Any record:of significant
[2133]5 || benefit.
[2134]4a . Mr. Bader. A record | of significant abuse in the sense
[2136]5 ‘that Fulbright students or. those under American educational
[2137]6 programs have been used’ ‘operationally. ‘There is an extensive
[2138]7 record over the years, but it is not of major importance to ,
[2140]8 || the Agency.
[2142]9 -.’ The Chairman. Well,|'apparently. the. Agency itself has
[2144]10 || restricted or has put the} Fulbright scholars off limits,
[2148]12 | Mr. Bader. That ‘is correct, sir.
[2150]13 _ The Chairman. Well, then, --
[2152]14 |: ‘Senator Hart of Michigan. That must be the result of a
[2154]15 conclusion that either they were not beneficial or they didn't
[2156]16 |} want to poison the program.
[2157]7
[2159]17 Why doesn't that reasoning apply to these others?
[2160]- ' oo .
[2162]18] The Chairman. Well, I. think it does, but we might as
[2163]19 | well come to a vote on it and decide whether we want to keep
[2164]20 it or strike it.
[2166]al . Senator nudadeston. Well, to being it to a vote, Mr.
[2168]22 Chairman, I would move that Paragraph 44 -- .
[2169]23 _ Senator Baker. ue. |Chairman, I would just kind of make
[2170]24 “one inquiry, I believe, and I already know the answer to it,
[2172]25 that even though we are voting on this section, I believe the
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[2184]44
[2185]15
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[2187]ln
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[2200]. be reconsidered.
[2202]‘TOP SECRET ”
[2204]arrangement we had previously, that is to say, that none of
[2206]this is final, and certainly not until we hear the comments
[2208]of the Agency. -
[2209]Is that still observed?
[2211]The Chairman. Yes, that is still. the situation. Nothing
[2213]becomes. final until thé final vote is taken, and anything can
[2215]Senator Baker. Then we are going to have comments from the
[2216]Agency. When, Bill, tomorrow?
[2218]Mr. Miller. Staff is going to get them. tomorrow afternoon
[2220]out there, and they are going to give it to us in'writing, I
[2222]think, tomorrow afternoon:
[2224]. { : 4 7 .
[2225]The Chairman. I ‘suspect that the Agency will oppose
[2227]many of these recommendations.
[2228]. rn
[2230]Senator Huddleston. No question about that.
[2232]I
[2234]' The Chairman. I hope that won't be the single basis
[2235]upon which we decide for co against.
[2237]Senator duddleston, ‘My: motion includes, Mr. Chairman, ©
[2239]that we exempt the military. |
[2241]"Senator Schweiker. You say it will include --
[2243]Senator Huddleston. That will be in my motion, in 44, that
[2245]we exclude foreign military people.
[2247]The Chairman. All. rilght.
[2249]The motion is made that Recommendation No. 44 be approved
[2251]with the exception that, it does. not apply to foreign military
[2253]Toe SECRET
[2255]WARD & PAUL
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[2259]11
[2260]12
[2261]13
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[2288]TOP SECRET
[2290]personnel coming into this country, is that right?
[2291]Senator Huddleston. Yes.
[2292]The Chairman. Let's have a vote.
[2293]Do you want to call the roll, Mr. Miller?
[2294]Mr. Miller. Yes.
[2295]Mr. Hart of Michigan.
[2296]Senator Hart of Michigan. Aye.
[2297]Mr. Miller. Mr. Mondale.
[2299]Senator Mondale. Aye.
[2301]Mr. Miller. ur. Huddleston.
[2302]Senator Huddleston. Aye.
[2303]Mr. Miller. Mr. Morgan.
[2305]; Senator Morgan. No.
[2307]Mr. Miller. Mr. Hart of Colorado?
[2308]Senator Hart of Colorado. Aye. , .
[2309]Mr. Miller, Mr. Baker.
[2310]Senator Baker. No.
[2312]Mr. Miller. Mr. Mathias?
[2314]-Senator Tower. You missed Goldwater. “You missed
[2316]Goldwater.
[2318]- Goldwater no by written proxy.
[2320]Mr, Miller. Mr. Mathias’ is in the phone booth.
[2321]Mr. Schweiker.
[2322]Senator Schweiker. Aye.
[2324]Mr. Miller. Mr. Tower?
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[2328]WARD & PAUL
[2330]28
[2332]senator
[2334]TOP SECRET | -
[2336]1 Senator Tower. No.
[2338]2 Mr. Miller. Mr. Church?
[2339]5 - The Chairman. Aye.
[2340]4 Senator Tower. I don't think it is going to affect the
[2342]5 || outcome, so I ask consent that he be recorded.
[2344]6 - Mr. Miller. The ayes have it, It is six to four. Mr.
[2345]a Mathias is still in the phone booth.
[2347]8 Senator Tower. I ask consent that he be allowed to be
[2349]9 | recorded. It might change the outcome.
[2351]10 _ The Chairman. All right.
[2353]ll Let's go to 61 next.
[2355]12 “Mr. Aaron. The next issue is on page 78A, Recommendation...
[2356]13 47.
[2358]14 ‘The Committee previously agreed to extend the CIA
[2360]15 || prohibitions on the use of media to the use of any person
[2361]16 || who regularly contributes material to publications and those
[2363]197 || involved directly or indirectly in the editing or setting
[2365]18 || policy and direction in the direction. of the activities of
[2367]19 || U.S. media organizations.
[2369]20 |. What was unclear was. whether this was the recommendation
[2370]21 | of the Committee to the CIA that it amend its regulations to do
[2371]eo || that, or whether this was to be embodied in statute as had
[2373]23 | been recommended in Recommendation 46.
[2375]€ 2 BAL | The. Chairman. I'm sorry, I have lost you.
[2378]‘BS “Mr. Aaron. You will find the words “proposed statutory
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[2387]30
[2389]1 || CIA prohibition" and you see the words "proposed" and
[2390]2 "statutory" are in brackets, reflecting uncertainty on our part
[2392]3 || as to whether it was the intention of the Committee that this
[2394]4 prohibition simply be a CIA regulation or embodied in the
[2395]5 statute, which is recommended in the recommendation of procedur s.
[2396]6 the Chairman. Senator Huddleston, do you have any comment
[2397]Df on this?
[2399]8 _ Senator Huddleston. “I havea personal feeling that when
[2401]9 we go too far statutorily in dealing with the press, that we.
[2403]“10 sometimes get on thin ice. I don't know whether it: would be
[2404]‘1] || appropriate to make some suggestion here that the press itself
[2406]12 || initiate certain standards and methods. Many of them in the
[2408]13 || press believe they ought to have anyhow.
[2410]14 I think the recommendation for the CIA is probably
[2412]15 || sufficient. . i ;
[2414]- 16 The Chairman. And let that be handled as a matter of
[2416]i .
[2418]7 CIA regulations.
[2420]18 Senator Huddleston. Rather than by statute.
[2422]19 |. fhe Chairman. Rather than by statute.
[2423]20 Is that. acceptable to the Committee?
[2424]2] Senator Tower. Iam sorry, Mr. Chairman. Would you
[2426]go || repeat the proposition? |
[2427]93 The Chairman. The proposition is’ that the Committee
[2428]984 recommend that the CIA, | by regulation, handle this matter
[2429]. . I .
[2431]25 || rather. than make it statutory.
[2433]TOP SECRET
[2435]WARD & PAUL
[2437]HY 50955 Docld:32423521 Page 32 :
[2439]10
[2440]1
[2441]12
[2442]13,
[2443]14
[2444]15
[2445]16
[2446]1?
[2447]18
[2448]19
[2449]20
[2450]21
[2452]22
[2454]rom
[2456]24
[2458]25
[2460]HW 50955 DBocld:3
[2463]ed i
[2465]E
[2466]Or S CRET 7
[2468]Senator Tower. Well, I oppose it either by statute or
[2469]by regulation, so I would suggest that those who favor the
[2470]‘concept determine whether they want to do it by either statute
[2471]or regulation. I am opposed to doing it by either. | |
[2473]‘Senator Schweiker. I would like to see it by statute if
[2474]we are going to do it.
[2476]Senator Baker. Mr. Chairman, does this make any distincti
[2477]between domestic media and -- on the media located physically
[2478]within the United States and the U.S. media outside the
[2479]United States? _
[2481]The Chairman. No, it does not. It simply attempts to
[2482]prevent the CIA from involving itself with personnel who are
[2483]part of the U.S. media, whether here or abroad, ‘as : read it.
[2485]Senator Tower. Okay, now, let me ask you a question.
[2487]What is there is a Reuters reporter in. Moscow who is
[2488]cooperating with us, and Reuters contributes regularly ‘to U.S.
[2489]media?
[2491]Senator Schweiker. “We spent an hour on that. They are
[2492]excluded. We argued that for an hour.and I lost the point, so
[2493]they would be excluded.
[2495]Senator Huddleston. This basically just extends to
[2497]‘CIA's own prohibition that they had initiated against what we-
[2499]would normally think of as working journalists, and includes
[2500]into it the executives and editors and those who may be
[2502]freelancing.
[2504]TOP SECRET
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[2509]1OP seckET =~ -
[2510]“1 "Senator Tower. What it we got a freelancer for Time
[2511]' 2-|| Magazine who is indeed a foreign national? Does he come under
[2512]3 this prohibition? . |
[2514]4 . Senator Huddleston. “If he has some reqular association wi
[2515].§ || Time he would be. |
[2517]6 Mr. Aaron. Under the Agency's current regulations and
[2519], own prohibitions, a foreign journalist working for Timé Magazin
[2520]8 || oversees would be prohibited from being used by them for
[2522]9 operational purposes. That is their own position today. This
[2524]10 would extend that prohibition to someone who is, what in the
[2525]11 || trade jargon is a stringer, or --
[2527]12 Senator Tower, This would inciude a stringer?
[2529]13 Senator Schweiker. It wouldn't cover Reuters or some
[2530]14 other foreign news service. | ;
[2531]as Mr. Aaron. It would also apply to a foreigner who was,
[2532]16 for example, if there were such a thing as an editor in the
[2533]1? Paris Bureau of Time Magazine. I don't think they work that
[2535]. —_ oo :
[2536]18 | Way, but say there were such a person, it would apply to him
[2538]19 as well,
[2540]20 || ' Senator Tower. What about the Paris Trib? What about
[2541]2° .
[2542]21 that?
[2543]: | .
[2545]22 Mr. Aaron. A U.S. media organization,
[2547]. ue ' . :
[2548]23 Mr. Kirbow. It is excluded.
[2549]24 Senator Schweiker. _That is a subsidiary of an American
[2551]95 company. ; 7 7 |
[2552]TOP SECRET
[2554]WARD & PAUL
[2556]HW 50955 DoclId: 32423521 Page 34
[2558]10
[2559]11
[2560]12
[2561]13
[2562]14
[2564]15
[2566]“16
[2568]ay
[2569]18
[2570]19
[2571]20
[2572]21
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[2575]24
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[2582]. _ ' 33
[2584]‘Senator Tower. What about Reader's Digest Selecciones,
[2585]which is their Spanish publication? Is-that included?
[2587]Mr. Aaron. iI assume so.
[2589]The Chairman. Well, according to the CIA's own restric-
[2590]tions, it is excluded now, except this would simply
[2591]extend the exclusion to’ stringers, those who do not have
[2592]regular employment. |
[2594]Senator Huddleston. “And editors and executives.
[2596]The Chairman. And editors and executives.
[2598]Mr. Bader. The present restriction, Senator Tower,
[2599]that has been extended by the Agency in February, went to
[2600]accredited journalists, accredited to U.S. media organizations.
[2601]The only difference between this prohibition and the one
[2602]already assumed by the Agency is that this moves further
[2603]accreditation to include those who regularly contribute to
[2604]U.S. media organizations or are a part of their structure.
[2606]Mr. Kirbow. The management structure.
[2608]Mr. Bader. - The management structure, whether they:
[2610]contribute material to or are involved directly or indirectly
[2612]“in the preparation of material.
[2614]The Chairman. Well, I think if we are going to do it,
[2615]we had better decide on the policy. If we want to keep the
[2616]CIA out of U.S. media both at home and abroad, and we want
[2617]to extend that to stringers as well, then I think it ought .
[2619]to.be done by statute rather than just: a recommendation by
[2621]TOP SECRET.
[2623]WARD & PAUL
[2626]16
[2629]12
[2631]13
[2633]18
[2635]19
[2637]20
[2639]al
[2641]22
[2643]25
[2645]R4
[2647]25
[2649]TOP SECRET ssl
[2651]the Committee that the CIA do it, because the CIA regulations ©
[2652]may or may not issue, and they can be changed at any time
[2653]without notice.
[2655]Senator Tower. Well, Mr. Chairman, aren't we talking abou
[2656]two different things? .
[2658]t don't mean foreign, you know, our foreign correspondents
[2659]abroad writing CIA propaganda for American publications. We
[2660]are talking about operations here, operational use, not use
[2661]to write some article that the CIA wants planted in an American
[2662]publication. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking
[2663]about using him to gather intelligence, and it goes back
[2664]directly to the CIA which doesn't serve as a publication.
[2666]The Chairman. But operational use can include many things
[2667]including writing propaganda and usually would if it involved
[2668]journalists. 7 a |
[2670]Senator Tower. well, I think we have already got a
[2672]prohibition on that.
[2674]Mr. Bader. The prohibition that the Central Intelligence
[2676]Agency has self-imposed extends across the line from cover
[2678]to. placement to all operational use of individuals, accredited
[2680]individuals to American media organizations. As I say, the
[2682]difference between what the Agency has already taken upon
[2684]itself and what this recommendation involves is this recommen-
[2686]dation extends it to individuals who are not accredited.
[2688]There are a number -- the figures that the Committee has
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[2692]HW 50955 seorerdpazon Page 36 ‘ WARD & PAUL
[2694]10
[2695]1
[2696]12
[2698]13
[2700]14 |
[2702]15
[2703]“16
[2704]17
[2706]18
[2708]19
[2710]20
[2711]21
[2712]22
[2713](23
[2714]R24
[2716]25
[2718]‘to just one third of those individuals.
[2720]at the Recommendation 46 that goes before 47, perhaps it might
[2722]established in law, if in’ 47, if the Committee should so
[2724]‘| decide to do it by recommendation, that they change their
[2726]and 47.
[2728]TOP SECRET
[2730]35
[2732]which have been authenticated by the Agency, ‘that there are
[2734]some 60 Americans who are affiliated or are part of American
[2736]media organizations around the world, part of a larger network
[2737]of some 400 journalists and the like who are part of the Agency ‘is
[2738]overall media asset program, and of those 60 under the Agency's
[2740]present prohibitions, the ones recently imposed, it would go
[2742]This prohibition would extend it from the one third to.
[2743]all because the other ‘two: thirds include people. that are
[2744]under cover, who are in management, and who are not under
[2745]the technical term accredited to U.S. media organizations.
[2747]Mr. Chairman, I might say if the Committee would look -
[2749]bear in mind that the recommendation in 46, which takes the
[2751]present Agency prohibitions and says that they should be
[2753]internal prohibitions, there will be a contrast between 46
[2755]The Chairman. Well, let's have a'vote. Let's go back
[2756]to 46, and I take it that the recommendation is that this
[2758]prohibition that the CIA has imposed upon itself ought to
[2760]be written in statutory form.
[2761]7 . Jd
[2763]Mr. Bader, ‘That is jthe recommendation.
[2765]The Chairman. All right. net's have a vote on that
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[2773]1 first of all, and then we'll take up 47.
[2775]2 Mr. Miller, will you call the roll?
[2777]3 Senator Huddleston. Me. Chairman, I think I am probably
[2778]4 || the only one that has suggested that it should not be statutory
[2779]5 |. and I would just point out that that might be a result of the —
[2781]6 fact that I am in the media, so I would withdraw that unless
[2783]i
[2784]i
[2786]7 somebody else wants to make that recommendation.
[2788]8 The Chairman. I thought yours went to 47.0
[2790]9 This is 46. . |
[2792]10 Senator Huddleston. | It did, but they both relate to the
[2793]111 media. ‘ |
[2795]12 The Chairman. wel, let's take a vote on 46, which
[2797]13 would recommend that Congress enact a statute conforming to
[2799]14 the CIA's self-imposed prohibition on U.S. journalists or
[2801]15 foreign journalists accredited to the U.S. media abroad. .
[2802]16 a Mr. Miller. Mr. Hart of Michigan.
[2803]. 9 Senator Hart of Michigan. Did you want a roll call?
[2804]18 | The Chairman. yes! |
[2806]19 ; Senator Hart of Michigan. Aye.
[2808]20 Mr. Miller. Mr. Mondale.
[2810]Phe | Senator Mondale. aye.
[2812]22 Mr. Miller. Mr. Huddleston?
[2814]24 Senator Huddleston, aye. . - So '
[2815]924 . me. Miller. Mr. Mozgan. |
[2817]25 . - Senator Morgan. aye.
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[2824]| 27
[2825]1 Mr. Miller. We. Hart of Colorado.
[2826]i ;
[2828]2. Senator Hart of Colorado. Aye.
[2830]3 | Mr. Miller. Mr. Baker.
[2832]4, Senator Baker. Aye.)
[2834]5 ' Mr. Miller. Mr. Goldwater.
[2836]6 ; “Senator Tower. “No by| proxy.
[2838]vi Mr. Miller. Mr. Mathias.
[2840]8 - (No response.) '
[2842]9 | Mr. Miller. Mr. schieiker.
[2844]10 _ Senator Schweiker. Aye.
[2846]ll ; Mr. Miller. Mr. Tower.
[2848]12 Senator Tower. - No.
[2850]13 Mr. Miller. Me. Church. .
[2852]14} . ‘The Chairman. Aye. 7 . _ 7
[2853]7 Senator Tower. Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent
[2854]16 that Senator Mathias be rdcorded. Tt will not be changed.
[2855]Hf co
[2857]17 The Chairman. all right. | .
[2859]18. - Now can we go to 47 and vote it up or down, on the
[2860]“19 understanding that this rékonmendation having. to do with
[2862]290 || Stringers and the use of é@xecutives would not take statutory
[2863]. . H t
[2865]21 || form but it would be a recommendation to the CIA without
[2867]22 || such regulation.
[2869]23 tt Ms, Culbreath. Chairman, could I say just a word, please
[2873]i=)
[2875]Bg. sir, with regard to whether it was done by: directive or regu-
[2877]25 || lation or by statute. ‘Yesterday one of the general recommendation:
[2879]TOP SECRET
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[2889]| | : 7 8
[2890]that we discussed and the||staff was asked to rewrite went to
[2891]3 the question of any changes or waivers of Agency directives
[2893]. jor recommendations, and as considered by the Committee
[2895]3
[2896]4 yesterday. The agreement! was -- and if that proposal is
[2897]5 one of the general recommendations goes “through any waiver
[2898]6 of an existing regulatidn lor any amendment of an existing
[2899]9 regulation, that affected the significant policies or programs
[2900]. of the Agency, would have! to go immediately to NSC and to the
[2901]9 oversight committee so thse they would know.
[2902]10 So what I am saying [is that if you had a directive: and
[2903]ll there was a change in song thing like this which would be
[2904]12 significant, there would jhave to be notice to’ the oversight
[2905]13 | committee and to the NSC.
[2906]v7 The Chairman. Can ve have a vote, then, on 47 before.
[2907]15 we go down to the Senate to this roll call.
[2908]16 , Mr. Miller. Mr. Hart of Michigan.
[2909]“ay Senator Hart of Michigan. Aye.
[2910]12 Mr. Miller. Mr. Hodteie.
[2911]aol Senator Mondale. nye.
[2912]20 Mr. Miller. Mr. Huddleston.
[2913]-_ Senator Huddleston. aye.
[2914]b0 Me, Miller. Mr. Morgan.
[2916]23 . Senator Morgan. her |
[2917]- 24 | Mr. Miller. Ne. Hart of Colorado.
[2918]os Senator Hart of Colorado: Aye.
[2919]i
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[2926]1 Mr. Miller. Mr. Baker.
[2927]2 Senator Baker. ayelll
[2928]3 . ’ Mr, Miller. Mr. Goldwater.
[2929]A Senator Tower. No by proxy.
[2930]5 Mr. Miller. Mr. Mathias.
[2931]6 ; (No response.) |
[2932]7 . Mr, Miller,’ Mr. Sctiweiker.
[2933]8 Senator Schweiker, jAye.
[2934]9 “Mr. Miller. Mr. rover.
[2935]10 Senator Tower, No.
[2936]il “Mr.Miller. Mr. church. :
[2937]12 _ ‘The Chairman. aye. |
[2938]aoe Senator Tower. Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent:
[2939]14 |) that Senator Mathias be allowed to vote.
[2940]- “The Chairman. That) will be so ordered.
[2941]16 |. ALL right, let's take a short recess and come back.
[2942]17 , (Whereupon, at 4:05.0' clock p.m. the Committee
[2943]18 || recessed to ceconvene at'!10:00 o'clock a.m., Friday, March -
[2944]19 | 26,1976.) : 7 |
[2946]£0 | ; . , | a ' oe
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