[1]187-10002-10105) | 2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992 |
[3]Date:09/30/93
[4]Page: 1
[6]m
[8]JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM
[9]IDENTIFICATION FORM
[11]AGENCY INFORMATION
[13]AGENCY : SSCIA
[14]RECORD NUMBER : 157-10002-10105 ,
[15]RECORDS SERIES :
[16]TRANSCRIPT
[18]AGENCY FILE NUMBER :
[20]ORIGINATOR : SSCIA
[21]FROM :
[22]TO:
[24]TITLE :
[25]TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM HARVEY
[27]DATE : 06/25/75
[28]PAGES : 62
[30]SUBJECTS :
[31]ZRRIFLE
[32]CASTRO
[33]ROSELLI, JOHNNY
[34]OPERATION MONGOOSE
[35]BISSELL, RICHARD
[36]ASSASSINATION
[37]KENNEDY, JOHN F.
[38]THE PRESIDENT
[39]QUWIN
[40]MAFIA ~
[41]SILVER, ARNOLD
[43]DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT
[44]CLASSIFICATION : T ~-
[45]RESTRICTIONS : REFERRED
[46]CURRENT STATUS : P
[47]. DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 09/30/93
[49]fates
[51]OPENING CRITERIA: |. x
[53]COMMENTS : . :
[54]Box 245 i. “
[55]Folder 13
[57][R] - ITEM IS RESTRICTED
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[91]counterespionage for a brief period against the Japanese and
[93]the Italians and the Russians in '41. Then during most of the
[94]War, against the Germans, and then beginning in early '45 until
[95]the middle of '47 against the Soviet service again.
[97]Mr. Schwarz. And then in 1947, did you join the CIA as
[98]head of the Soviet Intelligence Branch?
[100]Mr. Harvey. That is correct.
[102]Mr. Schwarz. Is that also counterespionage?
[103]Mr. Harvey. Yes, it was.
[105]Mr. Sehwarz. And then between 1947 and 1952, you worked
[107]on Soviat counterespionage and certain special operations in
[108]the Department for Plans, is that right?
[109]Mr. Harvey. Well, that is correct. It was a particular
[111]command and staff responsibility on Feommuniea Hons intelligences
[113]and for - .a: period of, I would think probably eight to ten
[115]months, I: headed a planning staff, along with that.
[117]Mr. Schwarz. In 1952, did you go to #semitin
[119]von’ for the CIA?
[121]Mr. Harvey. I did.
[123]Mr. Schwarz. And were you there until. 1959?
[124]Mr. Harvey. Until the end of 1959.
[126]Mr. Schwarz. I understand, Mr. Harvey, that you had some
[128]rather substantial accomplishments there, such as
[130]| Could you just very succinctly describe the
[132]moss vege? ~=—Ss(s FOP SECRET
[134]at
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[138]1 foperation and then move on?
[140]Mr. Harvey. Well, very briefly, that is an operation that
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[144]5 Senator Tower. You and who?
[146]Oe
[148]7 the, if not the most, knowledgeable senior officer in the
[150]9 And one of the reasons I went was to attempt to
[152]10 |mount this operation.
[154]11 In substance, what it amounted to was setting up a fairly
[156]WARD & PAUL
[158]24 Senator Tower. Were not what?
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[162]25 Mr. Harvey °
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[187]Mr. Schwarz. I have been told, Mr. Harvey -- is this not
[189]correct ~-- that you not only conceived the program butix
[193]Mr. Harvey. I did.
[195]Mr. Schwarz. In 1959, did you become Chief of the Foreign
[196]Intelligence Staff Bivision D?
[197]Mr. Harvey. That is correct.
[199]Mr. Schwarz. Now is Division D a division of the CIA which
[201]is responsible for geommun.
[203]Mr. Harvey. That is also correct.
[205]Mr. Schwarz. But part -~
[206]Mr. Harvey. But I would like to clarify it, if I may,
[208]Mr. Schwarz. It was the division of the clandestine services,
[210]which was the focal point and was responsible for primarily two
[212]Mr. Harvey. Yes, in two ways: complete control and
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[226]coordination of any such efforts,. approval and assessment of the
[227]security risk, and also in the direct procurement through
[228]Operational means abroad, but not-sin this country.
[230]ES.
[232]Mr. Schwarz. And by operational, you mean (enemiigmineo.s
[234]Mr. Harvey.
[237]Ries)
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[263]be covered as well.
[265]Mr. Schwarz. Now, did a man call¥®
[267]Deputy Director for Plans,
[269]for you in Staff D?
[271]Mr. Harvey. Yes, ha did.
[273]Mr. Schwarz. At some point, did (iy Donmelh rAécount to
[274]you a conversation concerning Patrice
[276]Mr. Harvey. Yes.
[278]Mr. Schwarz. y wf said to you?
[280]Mr. Harvey. Vir OubDonné: game to me and
[282]to undertake ah operation in
[283]Congo, one of the objectives of which was the elimination of
[284]Patrice Lumumba. He also told me that he haa declined to
[285]undertake this assignment.
[287]Mr. Schwarz. Did Mr Bissell subsequently have a conversa~
[289]tion with you in which he also recounted the fact that he had
[291]requested (Mr 118 to undertake such an operation?
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[336]of assassination is obviously a two-pronged subject, ours and
[337]theirs. We spent countless hours over the years trying to
[338]determine the parameters of how far the Soviet service was
[339]willing to go. This was partly a question of assessment, .
[340]this was partly a question, to put it just as bluntly,
[341]of self-protection.
[343]I will try to summarize what I think are fair conclusions.
[345]In the field of political assassination, although I cannot
[347]document this by evidence, I have no question but what the
[348]Soviet service has, does, and will continue to use the tool o
[349]assassination to accomplish poditical gains inside and outside
[350]of the USSR. In the intelligence field, I think you have to
[351]Make a. distinction, the distinction roughly -- and I'm over-
[352]simplifying this slightly -- but a distinction into perhaps
[353]three classes.
[355]One, their own ethnics or nationals. Sacondly, indigénous
[356]agents Of-third countries.And thirdly, the recognized official
[358]staff officers of other intelligence services.
[360]During the seven years that I spent§ My which was
[361]the longest continuous period that I was exposed in depth to
[362]Soviet Executive Action, we lost a great many Russians, a great
[363]many Germans, a certain number of Czechs, Poles and other
[364]nationalities.
[366]“Mrs. Schwarz. When you say you lost Russians, you mean
[368]Russians who were working with the United States?
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[403]Mr. Schwarz. Anyway, it exists, as a combination.
[404]Mr. Harvey. In other words, if you want to put it in just
[406]these blunt terms, it would have been a lot easier for tha KGB
[408]Mr. Schwarz. In describing the Soviets, you distinguish
[409]between political assassination, direct agents of the United
[410]States, and finally the emigres and foreign nationals.
[412]Mr. Harvey. And’ also -~ well; not foreign nationals, but
[413]emigres and Soviet nationals.
[415]Mr. Schwarz. That's what I meant. Soviet nationals.
[417]Mr. Harvey. The most merciless, the field where they are
[418]the most merciless are their own defected agents, of course.
[420]Mr. Schwarz. Now, to your knowledge, has the United States
[421]ever assassinated a defected agent or a third country?
[423]Mr. Harvey. You mean an American agent who has defected
[424]or doubled?
[426]Mr. Schwarz. Yaes..
[428]Mr. Harvey. To my personal knowledge, no.
[430]'Mr. Schwarz. What about persons who are third country
[431]enemies of the United States?
[433]Mr. Harvey. No.
[435]Mr. Schwarz. You don't know any instance of the United
[437]States assassinating any person who is in the non-political
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[458]Eyes Only basis, and the first part of this was the necessary
[459]documentation for the authority which was later signed off on
[460]by Dick Helms as Deputy Director.
[462]Beginning on my page 4, your middle of page 3.-~
[464]Mr. Schwarz. Well, just a moment. Page 1 is a cover story,
[466]not the real story, the objectives--
[467]Mr. Harvey. It is both.
[468]Mr. Schwarz. But it does. not recite as an objective, 2° isi:
[469]assassination or: assassination: capability.
[470]Mr. Harvey. No, it does not.
[474]Mr. Schwarz. Instead, it cites fEe¥obtaitting. of code’
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[492]Mr. Harvey. Which, I would like to point out, was a
[493]perfectly legitimate objective and was not in a sanse, a cover
[494]story except that if this project had gone so far as to the
[495]actual recruitment of any agent for assassination or the targat-
[496]ting of any target or the mounting of any operation, it would
[497]have been under this as a cover. But, those assets that were
[499]spotted by QJUWINN, for instance, under ZRRIFLE were also
[501]honestly considered for possible clandestine procurement {6 a
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[513]So it's -- maybe I'm not making this clear, it's a cover
[514]in a sense, but it's not a phony cover, in other words.
[515]Mr. Schwarz. Dual purpose.
[517]Mr. Harvey. It was a dual purpose.
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[567]Mr. Schwarz. You mentioned QJWINN. Was OJWIN/ an agent
[568]who you did hold in reserve for possible usa in connection |
[570]with the Exacutive Action program?
[572]Mr. Harvey. No, OQJWIN’ is an agent that I considered for
[574]possible use and used for a limited period through @Arn
[576]for the spotting of individuals with criminal and underworld
[578]1
[579]connections in Europe for possible multi-purpose use, none of
[582]whom were ever advised of the use, none of whom, as far as I
[583]Personally know, were. ever used.
[585]Mr. Schwarz. But the multi-purpose use included as one
[586]purpose the possible use in assassination?
[588]oe
[589]Mr. Harvey. Only /the sense that had we ever been saddled
[591]with a flat, if you will, command performance on assassination.
[592]I might have considered the people spotted by WIN as possibil-
[593]ities.
[595]But, you see, before anybody that is ever spotted is
[596]approached for any operation and particularly -- and please, I
[597]don't mean to sound pedantic on this, =-<dowtt=mean-te—--- is
[598]Qa rks Be
[599]actually approached, there #s-a long period of assessment,
[601]crosschecks, so on and so forth. This particular spotting
[603]mechanism never actually want that far, as far as I know.
[604]I only know of one use made by QJUWIN until we terminated
[606]him some months later, I don't remember the exact date. It was
[608]before I went to Rome. I know it was in connection with an
[610]peration in the Congo that was not an assassination operatio
[612]top secret Publ
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[646]and had, as far as I know, personally, at least, nothing to do
[647]with assassination.
[649]I have checked pages 1 and 2? and 3 and my page 4.
[651]Mr. Schwarz. Are pages 4 through 7, in your judgment;
[653]pages that were written by {Me
[655]Mr. Harvey. As a guess, I'd say thay appear to be in the
[656]same writing as these first three pages.
[658]Mr. Schwarz. Are pages 8 and 9 pages that are written by
[659]you?
[661]Mr. Harvey. Well, just a moment, let me get to those.
[663]I would also like to point out that from page 4 that --
[664]that is page 4, as long as it continues in the same handwriting
[665]was - not a part of this so-called Project Outline, these I
[667]would guess were probably E34 agSuLven's notes and probably
[669]oe
[671]based, at least to an extent, on discussions he had with me,
[672]and certain sort of problems and questions and principles that
[673]I tossed out to be considered and cares to be exercised.
[675]Mr. Schwarz. Then pages 8 and 9 are in your handwriting,
[676]is that right?”
[678]Mr. Harvey. Pages 8 and 9 are in my handwriting.
[680]Mr. Schwarz... And at the bottom of page 8, does that
[682]indicate that you had a conversation with fim erg on January
[685]Mr. Harvey. Yas, it does.
[687]Mr. Schwarz. And is it’ your judgment that that is January
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[732]26, 1961 and is about the subject of Executive Action?
[733]Mr. Harvey. Yas, it is.
[734]Mr. Schwarz. And it followed your conversation with Mr.
[735]Bissell that you have recounted?
[736]Mr. Harvey. I think probably that might be -- well, when
[737]I first looked at this, I thought this, well, this has got to
[739]be ‘62, but I am almost certain now that it is not. If this
[741]is true, this might
[743]Place the first discussion that I had with
[745]Pes ars
[747](early January und this is. difficult to pinpoint
[749]Dick Bissell
[750]because there were several such discussions in varying degrees
[752]of detail during the period in the spring, and very early in
[754]‘61 to the fall of ‘61 period, but I did find out fairly early
[756]‘7 tasmamennsssiesasacsnesseshiess Sm ND TN
[758]Now, these two pieces of paper, well, I say two pieces of
[759]paper, what they are from -- they are in my handwriting. It's
[761]from a yellow pad, probably the duplicate of this that I used
[763]to keep on my desk and just’ make rough notes of conversations
[765]that I had, telephone and otherwise, with various people.
[766]Once a week I would jgo through them and either destroy them)
[768]classified . trash; . dictate from them, or occasionally save
[770]them. There is no relationship batween the material that
[772]appears after the line two-thirds of the way down the page, just
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[784]5 1 before the “ 26/LSAS,°, and the material which appears above
[786]3 * Vit which is tabbed SID G, tab 21.
[787]2 5 Mr. Schwarz. That would be Sid Gottlieb?
[789]4 . Mr. Harvey. Sid Gottlieb.
[791]Ss) Mr. Schwarz. Doesn't the conversation with Sid Gottlieb
[793]6 llon the 25th of January indicate you had discussion which include
[795]7 \lthe word bankruptcy and you felt assassination was --
[797]& ; Mr. Harvey. There was a general philosophic discussion of
[798]9 llassassination and assassination techniques. There was also a
[799]10 |'discussion on a number of other things that were of particular
[800]ll jand specific interest to the communications intelligence field
[802]l2 |and the clandestine service's responsibilities aspects, if you
[804]13 |}will, and as best I can recall this conversation, this was a
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[808]14 | sort of an axchange of ideas and briefing session, probably
[810]15 | held at the request of Sid Gottlieb in my office shortly after
[811]16 |he either took over a new job in TSD or took over as actual
[813]17 |Chief of TSD, which was the Technical Services Division of the
[814]18 | clandestine services. *
[816]19 Mr. Schwarz. Now the reference in the middle of that
[817]20 ||conversation with Mr. Gottlieb to "Last resort beyond last
[819]21 resort and a confession of weakness." That's referring to
[821]22 ||assassination?
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[825]23 Mr. Harvey. That's obviously referring to assassination.
[827]‘94 |That's probably what I told Sid Gottlieb my opinion’ _on the
[829]£5 | use and propriety of assassination as a technique was.
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[897]of operational philosophy which I expressed to Gottlieb, that
[899]the question then came in pure theory as to -- as in such cases
[901]as, now assumptions, the. example of 3 wrong, I am not really
[902]suré. But the closest that I can come is that the assumptions -
[904]it might be desirable in a purely theoretical discussion and in
[906]my opinion we were wrong. Whether I said that to Gottlieb in
[908]the words that are here, I just don't know.
[910]Mr. Schwarz. Who were the two besides Mr. Trujillo that
[911]make up the examples of 3?
[913]Mr. Harvey. I prasume ~~ I have no idea, but I presume
[914]that the logical candidates at that point would have been
[915]Lumumba and Castro. By. logical candidates, I mean not that
[916]we were considering them in this discussion as logical targets
[917]for assassination, but that these -were sort of the three
[918]people that would come to mind ;if you are going to go into this,
[919]these are three to be considered.
[921]But you will: notice, if I may,.Mr.::Schwarz,. "Framework of
[923]gee on
[924]EF the name of #hé staff
[926]freer ann
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[930](Seremascinn
[932]Sid's job. " GF
[933]officer who worked for me in Division D at that time.
[935]This “translating machine" was an experimental device,
[937]done’ under +< hoped for development f
[939]interested in, because of the serious translation problem that
[941]So you see this was not a discussion strictly within the
[943]framework of either assassination as a specific, or assassination
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[958]3 2 Mr. Schwarz. Now, the material commencing on handwritten
[960]“ : 3 |jpage 4 and commencing in the middle of page 3 of the Ssnator's
[962]4 ||motes, reflects in your judgment the conversation that you had
[964]and it is his notes about that conversation, is
[966]6 [that right ?
[967]2 Mr. Harvey. That is my best guess,
[969]8 It may also, however, include his own thinking. and: so forth:
[971]g |I doubt if it includes -- it certainly would not include any
[973]19 ||Specific discussions, I don't think,,with other officers,
[977]1] || because
[979]ywas under specific instructions not to
[981]12 |discuss this as such with anybody else, at least without clearin
[983]13 it with me first.
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[987]: 14 ' Mr. Schwarz. And he starts, for example, by! talking’ about
[989]15 “Legal, ethical, morale, operational problems" and so forth,
[991]16 ||and that reflects the conversation you had with@iy Rigew?
[992]| 17 Mr. Harvey. Yes, it does.
[993]| 18 Mr. Schwarz. Down toward the end of entry 3b -- and 3 has
[994]3 19 the heading "Maximum security" -~ do you see that on page
[996])
[998]2 20 | 4?
[999]£ 2) Mr. Harvey. Yes, I sea it.
[1001]5
[1002]ui 20 Mr. Schwarz. There is a sentence which reads as follows --
[1003]{ r)
[1004]é 93 || two sentences, which I should read into the record, three
[1006]3 24 ||sentences.
[1008]a
[1010]25 "Within Kubark" -- now, is that the CIA? .
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[1018]i 1 |icrossed in this document. |
[1019]: 2 Mr. Schwarz. One way or the other?
[1020]| 5 3 Mr. Harvey. That's right. One way or the other.
[1021]| 4 Mr. Schwarz. Your note has a report to the DCI, the
[1022]5 January 26th reference, which reads in the first Line fag.
[1023]| 6 m, I taka it?.
[1024]7 Mr. Harveys. Yes,.I'm. sure that's [2 5 : Wer «
[1025]| 8 Mr. Schwarz. Then it appears to say f-a-n-f-o-r-n DCI
[1026]| 9 |matter. What does that mean?
[1027]| 10 Mr. Harvey. I am not sure. The closest I could come to
[1028]| 11 |ithat is a fairly illogical Fanfani,. and Fanfani. was never
[1029]2 12 ;even dreamed of, as far as I know, in any such context.
[1030]a
[1031]E 13 |Fanforn -~ Burton Wides raised that with me, and I just had to
[1032]i 3 :
[1033]| 14 |throw up my hands. I just don't know.
[1034]| 15 Mr. Schwarz. And you don't know what the reference to DCI
[1035]16 |/idn the notes means?
[1036]7 Mr. Harvey. No, I am sorry, I do not, at this point, Mr.
[1037]18 | Schwarz.
[1038]| : 19 Mr. Schwarz. Okay.
[1039]3 20 Mr. Harvey. Are you asking “me to try to interpret the
[1040]2 .
[1041]i 2] | portion of this that is in my handwriting, or are you satisified
[1042]i 22 lat this point?
[1043]| : 23 Mr. Schwarz. Well, the other items, it seems to me, are
[1044]: eq either not -important or are understandable. Maybe some of the
[1046]25 Members have questions.
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