[1]157-10014-10121 | 2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992
[3]JFK Assassination System: Date: 015
[4]Identification Form
[6]Agency Information
[8]AGENCY :
[9]RECORD NUMBER :
[11]RECORD SERIES :
[13]AGENCY FILENUMBER: = 07-M-27
[14]Document Information
[15]ORIGINATOR:  SSCIA
[16]FROM:
[17]TO:
[18]TITLE :
[19]DATE: 03/09/1976
[20]PAGES: 147
[21]SUBJECTS :
[22]SSCSGO, METHODOLOGY
[23]COMMITTEE BUSINESS
[24]DOCUMENT TYPE: TRANSCRIPT
[25]CLASSIFICATION: — Declassified
[26]RESTRICTIONS : 1B; 1€
[27]CURRENT STATUS: —Redact
[28]DATE OF LASTREVIEW: — 03/22/2000
[29]OPENING CRITERIA :
[30]COMMENTS : CCBOX 324
[32]v9]
[34]4
[36]HY 450955 Dacld: 327425509
[38]SSCIA
[39]157-10014-10121
[41]MISCELLANEOUS RECORDS OF THE CHURCH COMMITTTEE
[43]Page 1
[46]; Date
[47]| ! Page
[49]08/07/95
[50]1 .
[52]JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM
[53]IDENTIFICATION FORM |
[54]AGENCY INFORMATION
[56]AGENCY : SSCIA ‘
[58]RECORD NUMBER : 157-10014-10121 :
[59]RECORDS SERIES : MISCELLANEOUS RECORDS OF THE CHURCH COMMITTTEE
[61]AGENCY FILE NUMBER : O07-M-27 .
[63]DOCUMENT INFORMATION
[65]ORIGINATOR ;: SSCIA !
[66]FROM : '
[67]TO : |
[68]TITLE :
[69]DATE : 03/09/76 : .
[70]PAGES : 147
[71]SUBJECTS : SSCSGO, METHODOLOGY
[73]COMMITTEE BUSINESS
[75]TRANSCRIPT . ;
[77]DOCUMENT TYPE
[78]CLASSIFICATION TOP SECRET
[79]RESTRICTIONS REFERRED
[81]CURRENT STATUS
[83]DATE OF LAST REVIEW
[84]OPENING CRITERIA
[85]COMMENTS
[87]POSTPONED IN FULL
[88]01/05/99
[90]CCBOX 324
[92][R] - ITEM IS RESTRICTED
[94]HY 450955 Docld: 324235509 Page 2
[96]NATIONAL
[97]‘Unauthorized Disclosure: Su
[98]. to Criminal Sanctions:
[100]was
[102]Oo Report of Proceedings
[104]_... , Senate: SElect: Committee to- Study: Governmental. —
[106]Operations:
[108]-410-FIRST STREET; 8..E
[109]WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003,
[113]HW 50955 Docld:32423509 “Page 3
[115]Pa
[117]HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 4
[119]|
[121]|
[122]|
[123]|
[124]|
[125]|.
[127]|
[128]|
[129]|
[131]The Committee met, purawank te notice, at 10-39 o' Glock
[132]pane. in room #407, the Canitol, Senator Walter D. Insddleston,
[133](Chad rman of the Subcommittee) presiding. |
[135]Present: Senatore Iwialeston. rresiding. Hart of
[137]Colorado, and Mathias.
[139]; i.
[140]Also rresents Willian Miller, Staff Director: Joseph
[142]| otan Orloff. William Rader lynn Davis. AL Quanheck, Charles
[144]Johnaton
[146]Adicenova. Charles Kirbow. ELUict Maxwell, Elizaheth Culbreth,
[148]Lomkhard. Riek Inderfurth. Pech Kelley. Gren|Treverton. .Jim
[150]cand Brith Snider. "rofessional Staff Members.
[152]Terni ecraer INVESTIGATION
[154]Foreign & ifilitary Subcommittee Meeting
[155]: 4
[156]|
[158]Tuesday, “ereh
[160]United States Senate,
[162]we op
[164]| Gnerations with Pespect to.
[166]Intellicence Activities.
[168]| Washington, B.C.
[170]5
[172]4
[174]|
[176]t
[179]t
[181]t
[184]i
[186]dOP SECRET
[188]Se) ott Committee te Study Gevernmental
[192]16
[194]Oe
[196]HW 50955 Doold:32493509- Page 5
[199]i
[201]i
[202]i
[203]ut
[204]1
[206]|
[207]|
[209]if
[210]i
[213]if you will substantive arrreval of the maper on the production
[215]: : : i - ‘ .
[216]of intelligence so that it micaht go to the Agency and we could
[218]Pdruk o- .
[220]pepere pin tgmu as
[221]| ;
[223]Senator Huddleste. fet is come to order.
[224]i 7 .
[226]Mr. Aaron. the adaenda today is to proceed with the DCI
[227]. . 1 : ; :
[229]. . oe _ /
[230]section and in addition we wonld Like to vet the Subcommittee 's
[232]|
[235]an through the process of clearing its details.
[236]T don't know which oo those .you wish ‘to tske un first
[237]7
[239]Me. Kirhow. We should renlly take up the papar first
[241]j
[242]|
[244]oe t . . . |
[245]hecause it already went cut Chis morning. z
[247]I EB
[249]Mr, Aaron. Well. thes are renting it but we lave rot
[250]i
[251]i
[253]nedokiated with them vet.
[255]Senator Iluddleston. Anvoccomment on that paner?
[256]; . - ; ;
[258]Me. Miller, Which parar? |
[259]. . 4
[261]Senator Huddleston. the Inroduction of ‘intelliadence.
[263]Mr. Aaron: It is in the ‘laraer. hook.
[265]1
[267]Mr. Kirhow. SGanater, T Have some comments but T
[270]‘defer to thea Senators if they have sone comments first
[271]iir. Aaron, FTtie ak Tat TET. Cn.
[272]‘Senator Huddleston. Charley, am ahead.
[274]Mr. Kirhow. Thank uc.
[278]The sancern thak hon teen ayprosaed by the sgericr
[280]v
[282]ettpacced fran PR herengs met oot nacke of Phe oeateond by
[284],
[286]this Caedo bos hut oan aomabtter of record fer
[288]OR SECRET
[290]wee al pie
[291]1 ve
[292]1
[294]pot Andes bas
[298]koe.
[300]fe
[301]Hi
[303]|
[304]{-
[305]i
[306]i
[307]|
[308]i
[309]4
[310]I
[311]4
[312]|
[313]i
[315]5
[316]- '
[317]5
[318]i
[319]i
[321]i
[322]Q
[323]i
[324]|
[325]ra
[327]pay
[328]1a |
[329]ent)
[331]|
[332]Ly
[335]i
[337]7A
[338]woe |
[339]i
[340]'
[341]t
[342]1
[345]HW 50955 \ DocId:32423509 Page 6
[347]hevchnes! that the hid 9 fidht in
[348]the llouse last vear was to avoid the excruciating details on
[350]thea Senators. I'm sure t
[353]bhudqet fidqures and I thin’) so had kind of dai scussed pechaps
[355]roblishingd 3 or 4 major Feoborce
[357]|
[358]1
[359]i
[360]i -
[361]: aa | 24 re
[362]this particular document, grey oreat detail as that portson’of ©
[364]CIN, the ONT which produc: + Inte LLiaence, we speak of an
[366]|
[368]‘authorized project to $79.9 million with 2.269 employees, exact
[369]. t . .
[371]1‘
[374]: ; | |
[375]classified single compilation. |
[377]Senator Wuddleston. what’ page is that?
[379]onde.
[381]Mr. Kirhbow. Pade 2. fo a *
[383]Senator Hrddjeston. Ff cavrse it's out of the Agency.
[385]TL would assume they would have some commant on it.
[386]. . . |
[388]Mr. Aaron. the wotoeb-wasinot, the vier was not to
[390]oo, ;
[391]nroduce these precise numbers but A, to have them for the
[392]: |
[393]Subcommittees se that they could tinderstand them and much as
[394]. . . . 1 ’ .
[396]in the case of.tha MCL's original paner to exnect that these
[398]“things will he medifted and to Lay the Kasis for an syeropriate
[399], .
[402]discussion with them as fo tow micht wodify it and yet
[404]cantuce the essence of tre srenviant, and we'll insk sea how
[405]7 |
[407]Far that aces in trvint te reach a=
[409]Cevtainivy we lacs oes ieteankion of +
[411],
[412]Hons ber Tap Db ee bers rors a wey omy : this Nerertrenk
[414]7 . . .
[415]. oo oo . . - ae waa : feos £
[416]reppemankea a eubebaet i hos oc endbeore eikh a larde number o
[417]; - . ; _ i
[418]- One ET
[419]4 ~® r
[422]f
[423]L
[425]E'd Like to point out that ir
[427]document is nrrohablv the most
[429]ercantante of the Agency's “adaek and the excet rercentage of i
[433]1
[434]ees |
[435]i
[436]4
[437]al I
[438]if | ‘
[440]. : . i : one
[441]S Mr. Kirbow. Wel! if ' could tell vou what my position
[443]on it is, in speaking. te Beth ninom£ield last night I specificall
[445]asked her -- wall, she savs thatits to give them something out
[447]Le . —o: ee cones ae -
[449]f | there to take out so that well have snouh left jn here that
[450]aA wonld he a worthwhile doerment at the end.
[452]7 | and 1 think that if Wa nee kidding ourselves ‘that we
[453]8 | have either rhe time or -~ und ute should not have the inclinati
[454]9 - in mv .aniptlon to vaste kha “ime oF the people at the Agency
[456]t
[457]s which will aive Mr. Boldin
[459]|
[463]lcor anything hy. 'outtine in thing
[464]|
[465]| something bo qnaw on so he etal 't! hother the rest of the tlping,"
[467]i
[469]i
[471]i
[473]|
[475]- |
[477]ye d To anst didn! t think that we vere aoinyd te det into that kind
[478]i
[480]|
[482]nf dealing with the Ragen neanie T thought. we vere going to
[484]he forthriaht in what wa Hhonchel we should nut in and what we
[486]wauld put in a document Like this because the whole production
[488]of intellicence thing ar bhe hole theme of the paper is we
[490]TA |
[491]i
[492]iy ll this inadequate attention qiven ko the analytical Portion of H
[493]: |
[494]ve i preduation. :
[495]ao! And if we area doing this and sending it out there in
[498]this classified form full voll knowing at the outset -- she
[499]ey Sava. well, thak's not oven matertal. Tf they want to take it:
[500]co Tout, just fake it ont. -
[502]en Well), Pf it’s nek materdot, T would: hope that ve re not
[506]a ; : oe .
[508]| ; ” an
[509]I
[511]L
[513]| OO ; - Foo &
[515]BW 50955 Docld:32423503 Page 7 |
[518]|
[519]: Par a ahy yo
[520]7 Bee ERB :
[521]i 7
[522]i a | }
[523]i ; | Be 7
[524]rou Senator Huddleste:. “f think it's probably material to
[525]| mo, i.
[526]. 1
[527]2 also to have a firmer gress shen! we start discussing and de fendi c
[528]ae 1 .
[529]x the report nayhe ; even to tha extent of having specific figures.|
[530]{ 7
[531]i . : =. +4! os :
[532]ani I think it's highly un Likely that they will let that stay]
[533]"t { : t .
[534]. I . i
[535]if . ~ . . _ {
[536]; | in there and we'll srohably have to modify it. I see your point |
[537]~ jin a way that we might save curselves time by scaling it down |
[538]| Oo i .
[539].. | te beain with to what we think ‘tid be acceptable, but on ve |
[540]a | other hand. we may not quas: riaht. |
[541]er { : |
[542]5! Mr. ¥irbow. Well. For che record then, Senator. I do
[543]> {, e- : i . - . . {
[544]-_ - 7 7
[545]i have excention to this tyne vriting where we deliberately beef
[546]an , .
[547]4 it un with known classified infomation fall well Knowing hat
[548]a . . |
[549]Lo . _ i
[550]be dtis going tn be taken out and not get to the point that we . |
[551]aan ; . | “
[552]1° are trying to make. Bit Loven! t! dwell on itvany further.
[553]a ‘ . | a : :
[554]; anator Huddleston. “Tea vpn have any commerk cn: that
[555]. J . . 7 .
[556]| fo . i
[557]aspect, Senator Hart?’ r |
[559]7 ae |
[560]t Senator Hart. o Ne. ;
[561]Ve ee oo ;
[562]| Senator Huddleston. ALT right, that one's readv to go. |
[563]i Mr. Aaron. Thank vou, |
[564]La. ; . i 2
[565]he : .
[566]| Now we left of F vesherdavion rage 25. We had discussed |
[567]EO
[568]Aah . .
[569]| tye oral pronesals by way oF vecanmendations. The firet was |
[570]2 | : .
[571]ae E| . | . .
[572]. ' . . H
[573]|| cor set a tone for the ocr “hich VAS rejected and the second |
[574]at . i?
[575]was to confirm the new community-wide deputy for the. [cI to |
[576]i have him subject to Gansta nentibmation te establish him as,
[577]. . ‘ . . . {
[578]droaffect. the Firat depnty of bhe Der, hhe man whe
[579]fh ain hie ota. I | i
[581]te SECRET
[582]HW.50955 Docld:32423509 Page 8 i
[584]‘and we aqreed that we would’ make some change in the language
[586]‘relating to what in effect is thr re-establishment of the board
[588]tn P k ; hae BAL te
[590]i oT
[591]i
[594]- oe |
[595]i We aiso discussed ortafly the recommendatian nunber 16
[600]1 of. national estimates to mata clear that they weren't there just
[602]8 ll for the purnose of endorsing ostimates but ‘£rom the standpoint
[604]if
[605]! .
[606]S [that they are there for the nurnose of reviewing them.
[607]¢ So the next recommendation is recommendation 17, and it
[609]* 1 4s long and complicated. Earentlally what the recommendation
[611]° || anes is spell out more erecisely what the nCr! S reaponsibilitied
[613]JO | will be for the overall} a Llovation of resources and coordinatio
[615]a of the community! 9 aetivities anart fram the ‘production. OF
[617]Finished intelligence. which is ‘the pucpore of recommenda téion
[619]Ls 16 .
[621]\ - . ; vo a
[622]14 4 New what it does, the first paragraph summarizes the
[623]is | esaontial responsibilities alena the. lines of the President's
[624]16 | Bxecutive Order.
[626]| :
[629]ind) in the following sense. ‘The Feecutive Order establishes an
[631]Now it is slightiv different from the Executive Order. . |
[632]‘jaf use Committees. gives the Cemalttoe the resnonsibility of |
[633]i
[635]ej | preparing a national intelligence budget, makes the PCI the
[636]Chairman of that Committes. and vives the MCT in his nerson, |
[638]ee | df vou will, the - yeaponad hd tity for neasentina that budget. to tHe
[640]eur sa mm mfoeath Prsarth that seameawhak comoticaked and
[642]n| President
[643]tl
[644]| . .
[645]7 not entiratly clear allocetion of oe to the pet by simply
[648]Sea Va a UL:
[650]“MW50955 DocTd:329493509 Page 9
[652]caving he is responsible fer wrenaring tha commun tty 's huddet,
[653]| - _ 7
[654]| and he has this Committer for this purpose in trying to place
[655]& | responsibility squarely on him to do that. |
[657]At Now this would not mean, however, that the Secratary of
[659]. || Defense he senior to him in the cabinet. Tt mean the National
[661]Security Council could not make a,reclama and could net go over
[663]i
[665]t
[667]|
[669]i
[671]‘his head, : |
[672]That situation will <Lilicexist and this Committee is-
[674]in fact a committee of the ‘ational Security Council. so there
[676]beavond the level of the Cowntttee on Foreign Intelliqence ¥
[678]3
[680]|
[682]i
[684]|
[686]4
[688]. .
[690]joj) de another Laver at which intar-agency disnutes, if they continue
[691]eve they could be resolver.
[693]. ;
[695]for preparing the budget and rrovidina ‘quidance for overations
[696]prearams in aeneral terms and mits him in'as chairman .of the
[698]anoropriate NSC committees. and then we reference the CFI and
[700]L
[701]t
[702]pa fl Now the first -- Lt also desianates “him as resronsible
[704]i
[706]then authorize the following snecifie responsibilities.
[708]|
[709]| ; ‘First of all, the estah lishment of national intelligence
[711],o | reendrements . for the entire community and it emnoavars him to
[713]290 | araw uncon representatives of tha members of the intelligence
[715]61 community to help him in the task of establishing these recuirenen
[717]cel Now this igs an incroare in his authority from his.
[718]. oe Tourrant naatore. fle has caw the suthoritv to issue aoidance
[719]sa lip tha nrenayabieon af eaasiremante bub he oan'h raplie say do
[720]as I iste ayo da bah, Phoee ave bya things we wank, !
[721]\! Lo j
[722]hi ;
[724]. : : . Et gy
[728]HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 10
[730]to - Now as a practice! ~wabker, To think it's fair tm sav that.
[731]“ ||he anes nrettv far in aqetlind his way at the present time, but
[733]on some of these requirements on a national basis, this would
[735]ene net tare cores sneer
[737]z | aive him the clear authority to ask them to do things.
[738]q | Now his reavirenents. tha Level of detail and so forth,
[739]ff wold obviously be somath tne that would have to be neqotiated
[740]° | out in the course of his worl, . —— |
[741]2 | Now that is the rennvandation of the first parsgraph
[742]; ; , |
[745]Df amt naradreach A.
[747]io . Tmicht dust sav it also aives the DCI in connection wit
[748]LL | the requirements vrocass. it refers here to'the fact that he
[749]ya lo omav determine the success of various agencies in Fulfilling and.
[751]valle tact what the caradrech scka up is a system whereby the
[753]NCL can establish requirements and then through the budget
[755]cpyocess and in the norocans of avaluating requirements make
[757]“ye |p te the hudsets or take avav in cartain areas and so forth.
[759]ae |i Thig wroavides sone of the real svstam as anposed to a
[761]a) paner svstem which he tins het in the mark,
[764]Some estimate of how well the community is doing and either “
[765]. '
[766]any Varaaraph B dencyibes the nrenaration cf the national
[768]e
[770]a1 | intelligence bhudaat and nointe-ont that be should prepare this”
[771]I hudmet,-Abesent it ta the Nresidank and to the Conqress who |
[772]oo | would male moma references bere ta tha lancduage in the President's
[774]Mreenphtyn Ordag te hte seed.
[776]bea tha fe ths eaint that the definition oF the |
[778]ate? SECRET
[780]oases A RU
[782]HW 50955 Docld: 32423509 Page 11
[788]ms)
[790]|} consultation with the Execrtive Branch,
[792];qdence, between departmental and. national intelligence.
[796]atements to he included sb ehin a national inkelliaance budeet --
[797]iin other words , what parts af the community would fit into that.
[799]where you draw the line hatiaan: technical and national intelli-
[801]This definition world be established bv the Congress in
[803]L
[804]|
[805]|
[807]tt further points our that he should be involved early in
[809]the procees of vrenarine buloaks s in’ the hudatt cvele and then
[811]|
[812]ji tt makes gomehortatory kind of statements about how he should |
[814]trv to consider. trade-offe hokvaan proarans and hetween ‘collect
[816]ho ae
[818]and nroduction and so forth.
[822]n ,
[824]another word hesides trade-nf©. While it is common for us to
[825]wae it un here in committee vark. T don't think it conveys the
[827]hest connotation to the nublirc.
[830]Senator Huddleston. T youla sudgest there that we =
[831]|
[833]|
[834]What we're saving is that he balances out er arportions |
[835]resources, whatever: |
[836]Mr. Aaron, Now t think the final cantence is this |
[837]imrortant one. and the Senators should note this. the proposal
[838]and verhans this oudht #9 he made somewhat more. clear than it.
[840]is now as te whe will do this, but the authority -- I'm sorry,
[842]it is clear. But the sutheritv of the NCk to renrotram funds
[844]hae
[846]Thea President. bis @reaibtee §eder aqives oko the Cumnstthea on
[848]i
[849]|
[850]stthin the intellicencs hedect should he Limited by ehacute. .
[851]|
[853]Paretion Tetellinence ask oat bhe autrority to mresates the
[855]fOr REC CRET
[857]7 PAU
[859]HY 50955 'Docld: 32493509 Page 12
[861]J
[863]3
[865]Poy
[867]f nS
[869]|
[871]HW 50955 poor: 32423508 Page 13
[873]# oo vo TAK wl
[875]national intelligence bileeb bah to renrseram moneys within
[876]that buddqet.
[877]“Now our estimate #4 thak that budaet would be on the
[879]order of $3, 4, verhaps um te 25 billton, depending on what is
[881]that Committee what the pernone of that narticular provision
[882]was; and I asked him sreniftically did this mean that vou would
[884]he able to, as in the ease of Anaola. repreavam money away
[886]“fram some, other part of the budaat, NSA, 1RO, some other major
[888]included in it, and I asked the Yhite House, the NSC member of
[889]I
[890]proaram, and put it inte the sovert military, rmara-military
[892]action program? : a ?
[894]And hea said ves, that is the reagen that he is qiven
[896](a gort of broad authoritv to reproqram money.
[898]Senator Huddleston. “Hell, they were doing some of that.
[899]yereantt they? |
[901]Mr. Aaron. To some: extent I believe that's true, but
[902]Tt nersonal ly don't know what that ‘extent was « |
[904]Now to the extent ve uilll see later that we place some
[906]or make some recommendations conaearnina limitations on the
[908]authority to draw upon different funds and to -revlanish certain
[910]funds for the nurcoseas of envark action. this sauares. with that |
[912]. uo . : ° i
[914]nronosal hy saving that there should he hv statute certain fo
[915]Lieltations on the reerosransing of funds. - ;
[916]Metre nak cavdnd one Phevarm ouch k tp he there vaally. °
[918]thinkire thar tha mycrctaht comb” bee verrld ho ve boonak out.
[920]FOP ARC CREE
[923]. a |
[925]iH ' On: nS
[927]i
[930]i Now .the next paransaph, ose
[931]S | Mr. Kirbow. Coul? sa take these one at a time because
[932]| these are rather critical?
[934]. 1
[936]1 | Mr. Chairman, one of the Fhings that came before this f
[937]iB | committee when I quess it was Tx. Colby testifying and at each
[938]§ | menting that Mr. Miller ard the staff had with the people from |
[939]7 i the White House and the CIN when ve vere nreparing the oversight
[940]aa |mat.. we heard many qacd reasons why we show'd net. denrive the |
[941]6 | nen of this ability to sian certifying out of certain Funds |
[942]1 and being able to exnand them without a qreat big red tape . |
[943]1. |] machine to hinder that tyne of oneration. ?
[944]ba If, as Navid. savs, his recommendation here is to prevent
[945]LR | rerrogramming. lexcant v wi ithin very narrowly defined statutory
[946]ia | Uintts. is a first step toward restricting that further |
[948]os
[950]ractivitv. Tt would Like Bo. axcent on this and have it discussed ,
[952]before the Full Committee, ox in the absence of that, or
[954]that we should restrict hy leqielation here -~
[956]Senator Huddleston. chat is the major thrust there?”
[958]connected with it, have the record that-.we have that- shows us .|
[959]|
[960](.
[961]/Is if to in fact limit or restrict or is it to actually have 1
[963]it defined and snecified-in the statute as to what circumstances
[965]might prevail?
[967]My. Aaron, The throat here is as |fallows. The UCT
[969]Can now ranrodram manag tbthin bis oun agency tn some extent.
[970]7 So i
[971]ithat Dardersts., denendins ae Ma parts: he can repreqram., Tt don't |
[973]jor BECRET
[975]i : o os a Coo PEL
[977]HW 50955 Docld:324235093 Page 14
[979]i
[981]i
[983]in
[986]t
[987]$ I
[990]i
[991]aa,
[992]a
[993]a
[995]H
[996]oo
[999]|
[1001]|
[1005]_ we ? .
[1007]re ae . 2
[1009]halieve he’can reprograiry th within about $750 million of his
[1011]own appropriation.
[1013]|
[1014]|
[1015]i
[1016]Senator Huddleston. Raccantt take something out of tne |
[1017]NSA now and pit it over? | !
[1018]Mr. Aaron. “No, wecan't do that. But in his new |
[1019]responsibilities as DCI fer nrenarina the budget of the entire
[1021]national intelligence program. he will now be in a position to
[1023]‘reorodram the entire hivdaek and therefore. it's a much larger
[1025]wind of Flexibility.
[1027]aimed, this particular ohe -- later one we do have one which
[1028]dees place some constraints and the purnose is.te make it clear:
[1029]there the monev comes frem and where it's qoing to ao to
[1031]Now the thrust of this verticvlar croposal is not really | -
[1032]make it clear to the Caonaress ak least. But this particular
[1034]one simply savs that because this is a much wider reprogramming
[1035]flexibility, that it euaht te be subject to certain kinds of |
[1037]definitions and consider the limitations so that the Congress
[1039]knows what is hannening to the’ moneve that it appropriates for
[1041]-particular nurposes.
[1043]Senator Nuddleston. Well, for this particular paragraph |
[1044]then, . would define or seacify, suffice the voerd limited, |
[1046]er not?
[1047]Mr. Aaron, th should be dafined, That's correct.
[1048]J Me Bren: Tocte wie Ry medaye oh, Mr. Chaivran. that
[1050]that de os davarture from the stantarcd renrogramming nracess tha
[1052]TOP SECRET
[1054]Cun @ PAtEE |
[1056]HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page i5
[1058]co ee 2 ee |
[1060]' [hoe been adopted in the Chanabe guar the last ‘10 er 15 vears, |
[1061]8 | for instance, with the Cepmibten on Armed Services. ;
[1062]4 - 8 Lo ,
[1064]a _ Senator Huddleston. Far other departments?
[1065]A Me Kirbow. Where thera is an authorizing and an |
[1067]i 4
[1069]E | anporonriations type acticn in the Condress, as Senator Hart
[1071]BT dt know from his experience on that committee, if they wish |
[1073]x}
[1075]‘ . os oh a Mo pees .
[1076]tea revroqram missile money ovar to aireraft, for instance, 1
[1078]© has to be annroved by alli fonr of thease committecs, both
[1080]: : a,
[1081]Qa Arns Services and hoth anprenrintions committees: with the
[1083]nt ee ma . —.
[1085]‘VO |-exact transfer of the amounts of money and the justifications
[1087]MW civen therefore. ; | , ; f
[1089]My concern is nok that the Consrass should not have a
[1091]“bo
[1093]1
[1094]t
[1096]Ve aentrol of this er that vou ceuld make it so riaid by making
[1098]4) recemmendations that laave the oversiahkt committe: and the
[1099]; |
[1101]aporopriations committees no’ flexibility to do this. And © woul
[1103]16 4 think that unless we have a vary qood record on this, we should |
[1104]|
[1105]b
[1107]iv | recommend that this should be a matter that the oversight
[1109]12.4 committee in its new rele gives cood consideration to.
[1111]Mr. Miller. Tha ‘oversicht committees and the appropriatilor
[1113]committees would have flenibility. Every appropriations act is
[1115]|
[1116]a statute. afer all. oO _ oo oo oe f
[1118]martainiy would unless you restrict
[1120]n
[1122]them by statute.
[1124]. . ‘
[1126]Seyckoe Tr diester) aks are endgeagstine 3 aratute:
[1128]which, the neu avergiaty ved kRea that hass pacced,
[1130]i
[1131]|
[1132]‘ne oMr. Kirhow. Thee.
[1133]|
[1135]|
[1136]|
[1138]iO” SECRET
[1140]Try he re
[1142]“HW 50955 Docld: 32423509 .Page 16
[1145]. t
[1146]'
[1148]Tt
[1150]| to have thar kind of protection.
[1152]|
[1154]|
[1155]eft
[1157]|
[1159]i
[1161]|
[1163]|
[1165]BRR sed AES 14
[1167]ing far would have legistativyve .aythority aver. Soa wetra really
[1169]dust recommending here bhat in this statute they provide the
[1171]framework under which these kinds of repreq.amming can be
[1173]own little hailiwick to the entire intelligence community,
[1175]done in view of the fact that wea are extending the DCI from his |
[1177]Mr. Kirbow, If that's the intent of the committee, I
[1178]have no reservations about it.
[1180]Senator Huddleston | AL odan't think the military people.
[1182]would obiget to that kind jot lanquage, Thev'd like to have
[1184]some definite frameworr for aA man to reach into his budget.
[1186]“Mr. Kirhow, I think alt. the various agencies would? like
[1188]3
[1189]Sanator Hidleston. Mea.
[1190]|
[1192]Mr. Mavis. Numhar oc, the RCI shonld. have responsibility
[1194]to review all intelligence activities and intelligence resource
[1196]-allocations, including tactical military intelligence in order
[1198]to carry out his more qenarel resnonsibilities.
[1200]Wa've used the vord “yaufer" vary carefully here. This
[1202]is not a resnonsibilitv to direach those onerations but simply
[1204]to he able to look at the whole in order to sert of balance it
[1206]We're not saving thit he's taking over resnonsibility.
[1208]from the military commanders. ITF vow read the Fuecuti:re Order
[1210]the Llonqeaca $a dt ffercnh ead th save thak the Crt pt the
[1212]Poof wilh not bave vreanoasibitity for tactical miditers
[1214]TOP SECRET
[1216]rt A Pe
[1219]art
[1221]on
[1223]g
[1227]a 3 Ay)
[1228]4 _ i)
[1230]|
[1231]|
[1232]25 |
[1233]|
[1235]HY 50955 Docld: 324
[1239]intelligence. But then th uses the werd avidance. — That is that
[1240]the DCT will provide guidance on the relationship between the
[1241]two and that is ambiguous to ng and so we wanted to make sure
[1242]that the Dex would. be abla ko Lock at the whole but not have
[1244]responsibility for directing the tactical military intelligence
[1246]nroqrans.
[1248]Mr. diGenova. The cricdinal drafting of that Section Cc,
[1250]e
[1252]jt think it's actuallv clearer than the way it:'s drafted now.
[1254]The oriqgival draft says, rhtle the DCT shall. not have responsibil
[1256]For directina tactical militares onerations. the ner shall have
[1257]responsibility: to reviaw alt intelligence activities, et gptera.
[1258]‘T think the original aie ig better hecause it makeay it
[1259]clearer what vou are trying to say.
[1260]Mr. Kirbow. Lf you're coing to use that for Senate.
[1262]vou have to sav tactical military intelligence onerations.
[1264]Mr. diGenova. Yes. There’s a word missing from the
[1266]avricinal formulation.
[1267]Mr. Davia. The reason it was taken out is because it
[1269]yas a necative and there wpe the thouvht that this is saying what
[1271]ha does do and leaving what be doesn't do nok to be snid. Itts
[1273]un to the Committee how vou mank to me ; ; |
[1275]Mr. AiGernova. Pert con doen't want to do the same thing
[1276]the Presifent did and leore the thing ambianons.
[1277]Me, oNavbal To have ue evehbtem acldng that firet statement.
[1279]Senator Uniddlarten- fF vas want te be nasitive -you can}
[1281]TOP SECRET
[1283]Wee EL!
[1285]23509 Page 16
[1287]6
[1291]ee)
[1293])
[1295]20
[1297]|
[1299]hecause he's qoing to try to. look at the whole.
[1303]sav while the resnonsibiith.s for firectine tactical military:
[1305]onerations resides with wioeavcr it is. the DCI still shall have
[1307]the review. |
[1309]Mr. Mavis. Well, zaview is, I think, the right word
[1311]“Senator Huddleston. t think \Toe makes a point there
[1312]because that could lead to sore misinternretation.
[1314]Mr. navis, Section 1 arses on ta ask he litrector of
[1315]cantral Tukalliqence to antahlish a staf to sunport him in-
[1316]thesa resnonsibilities ama ae) arow a stAFF as widely and from
[1318]the best talent that he can. ; ; -
[1320]; : . | . : ‘ : 5
[1321]Senator Hart, Is Ehie another staff or is this thet
[1324]Mr. Pavis. This is the staff in being. ie has always.
[1325]had neonle to help him in: this role.
[1327]- oi . ° . . -
[1328]Senator Hart. Why do we have to authorize him to do
[1330]semethina he's already doing?
[1332]Mr. Mavis. We. don't want him net to do that. [ mean
[1333]wa want him to have a gsnrectal staff to carry out- theses -
[1335]resvonsibilitias.
[1337]time welve referred toa him haying the shaff.
[1338]Senator Mathine Why don'th vou sav maintain inctead of
[1342]Ganaker Wart, Uo Lf be doesn’b wank Ehe skater
[1344]TOP SECRET
[1346]mms PAWL
[1348]HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page i9
[1350]Sanator Nuddleston, his.is ahout the secend or third —
[1352]|
[1354]ee a Lee V
[1356]Po, Mr. Davis. Hela authorised. He doasn't have tn,
[1358]“9 | - Mr. Kirbow. Hats authariszad to have a staff under the
[1359]| President's executive order er in anv other normal course of
[1360]|
[1362]> = asa cniamenmaemmemrmmed pees
[1364]4 | husiness.
[1365]| | ms sneer to be adem tne down-be low the kind of-
[1366]| ventucony authority position that. you have and telling them how
[1367]7 structure all of the oraanizations. underneath,
[1368]ia] what's ny owlection “oso thak particular asrect of the
[1369]. — thane ar side with Senator Hart. He has the |
[1370]_ — to ns business and. Tt don'teé think anyone in their |
[1371]V4 | wildest imadination wold think that the Congressional redora ;
[1372][2 ould askab}ish that hes sunrosed to d it
[1373]iF | |
[1374]1% ! Taye haimsed Ff. |
[1375]ra Senator Hart. You book re words wight. oe _ ny novth.
[1376]«| Myr, Kirhow. And Toence nore say this is ov . bn
[1377]16 | recomendations. that ve recommend be taken out.
[1378]_ x | |
[1379]Senator Hart. thats wat
[1380]| mee Kixhow. The ebkatf had had. discussions at the staff
[1381]| | reve where several reconmentatinns that thinas like this be |
[1382]20 taken ovt for that very reason he considered. and T.think it | |
[1383]5, | is inadvertent that they weet baste tn “he eatvare,
[1384]“ "Senator linddlestor. ven have no strona feeling about that?
[1385]. a Let's omit that paracrenh. ) 7
[1387]|
[1389]ost ganpeattion. and T hate te da this.
[1391]Pak i'd Vike to badkoue boosegea Dev te sadided richkh bye this
[1393]| oo ror SECRET |
[1395]|
[1397]7
[1398]|
[1400]woes ak
[1402]HW 50955 DocId:32423509 Page 20
[1406]HW 50955 |.
[1408]TN A
[1410]“ a a ;
[1411]ie i 18
[1412]i ;
[1413]if 6 : . Lo. :
[1414]' | sade (24, recommendation [5 fhe Director also would he empowere
[1415]>| establish a hoard of senior advisors.
[1416]Sif Now who is that? Whe le that board? |
[1417]A . Mr. Davis. This woulict ha something similar to the board
[1418]j a , ,
[1419]5 | OF national estimates.
[1420]A | Senator Hart. Is h2 emnnvered to do that now?
[1421]an ‘Myr. Aaron. He is not ompowered to do that now hecause it
[1422]iL : . - ;
[1423]i
[1424]2 iwas abolished on him.
[1425]a4 Mr, Davis. Rut he cotld do ait. |
[1426]Oy Mr. Aaron. I don't think that’s correct.
[1427]| .
[1428]|| Mr. Maxwell. Ha abolished it. Tk was not abolishd on |.
[1429]i . : : . ; .
[1430]io dp him. a ce ft
[1431]13} Senator Hart. Contd "Is. Rush reconstitute it if he
[1432]L4 i wants? [o
[1433]i ; |
[1434]Lah Mr. Rader. Senstor, this is in’ a vay a call to the |
[1435]te6 || MCT. It is based, I think. on veally extensive ‘testimony we |
[1436]it , .
[1437]wy |i have taken here about the abd Diy of the board of national
[1439]yo t estimates. a
[1440]19 | Senator Huddleston. Tk may he more a recommendation thar
[1441]oo | an authorization, |
[1442]a I Me. Mavia, Ab Fhe sama time we didn't want to tell him :
[1443]P| .
[1444]=| he had te because it-is rere or lass un to him becanse if he —. |
[1445]OF Aeagy’t wenk to run bic chan that way - - ;
[1446]| , ,
[1447]al i Senaker Taek | cle ve thaaa neonte? a
[1448]i) . |
[1449]an | Mey Nawis. Un oh cs osk they have heen formar senior |
[1450]yop Ry ge
[1451]Lar: SECRET |
[1452]} . .
[1453]. I. cone mae |
[1454]DocId: 32423509 Page 21
[1458]End Uy ob ap
[1460]Hy 0955 Doclda:32423509 Page 22
[1462]t
[1464]feoask that ve knew of?
[1466]| aT ae, | : 19 i
[1468]officials and academics ~ho ran tel serve to raview the estimates
[1469]_and comment on them for tte director.
[1471]| Senator Hart. ne thay perform any function? Have they
[1472]in the past?» | |
[1474]Mr. Miller. Oh, yrs. Llewelyn Thompsen, for example.
[1476]there are senior diplomats. cantor military men from the outside
[1477]people of distinction, peanle who have seen a lot and have
[1478]something bo contribute. |
[1480]‘Seyator Hart. Have they had something to contribute?
[1482]Mr. Aaron, There ara tuo functions they can perform.
[1484]I More or less. they can bring their wisdom to hear on the product.
[1486]Senator Hart. y want ta know whet they have done in
[1487]the past. | |
[1489]Mr. Miller. Soviet matters. Llewelyn Thonpsen's roles,
[1490]for example.
[1492]Mr. Aaron. And the second thing they have ‘done was to
[1494]orovide some senior sumporkh fer the ACT and the judqerents he
[1496]Now the extent hap) ulich that suppeark has bean “ranslated
[1497]inta horesnover ig umelear, cucenk it was anEEieiently strong th t
[1498]it was of coheern toi rhe. pesetous administration anc was one of
[1499]rhe reakone that the bears “eond othors was disvestabhitched.
[1501]~Senshor fest. Hace fRoy rreyented any prehters in the
[1503]Sere IE
[1505]o
[1507]BA
[1509]HW 50955 Docld:32423509
[1511]& ~ PK OS 8
[1512]Mr. Inderfurth. 7 think that's in relation to helping -
[1513]“bo insulate the NCI from vressures to modify him, In the:
[1514]past, the board of national estimates insv lated the DCI
[1516]from pressures.
[1518]~Senator Iart. Chile.
[1520]ncr comes in and says we don't really want to do that but the
[1522]President made us, does. he br
[1524]President and say, Llevwely:
[1526]Mr, Lombard. I think
[1528]isa that the office of
[1530]AAministration and
[1531]Wag
[1533]tn which Foreian volley.
[1535]Tarypaps ag a Matter of fack
[1537]formalistic and the board of
[1539]scemewhat too long-ranca
[1540]aeared to what the President
[1542]dav needs on estimates.
[1544]Now T don't know
[1546]but it seems as though theese
[1548]to individual presidents.
[1550]So really. bedinnirg
[1552]vou. had the decline of the o
[1554]it ono loncer seemed to Fit t
[1556]Mri Aayep Fin opehos
[1558]ey ne
[1560]FOr 43
[1562]of tha histerw of bho
[1564]we
[1566]Page 23 —
[1568]estimates”
[1572]‘and somewhat other world ard
[1574]wheres
[1576]Pare wal
[1578]Ancola, all these cases. where the
[1580]ing in the senior advisor to the
[1582]thompson doesn'* want us to, .eithe
[1584]|
[1587]Jurind ‘that administsation.
[1589]park of the problem here. Senator,
[1591]wag created under the Eisenhowe
[1593]fitted VRE well. into the formalistic ca
[1595]evolved
[1597]heen criticized as being overly
[1599]estimates was viewed as being
[1601]rot
[1603]nerceived as.being his dav to
[1605]Bed
[1607]a the equities lie in this thing, -
[1609]insitutions bave changed according,
[1611]with the
[1613]Rica of national estimates because
[1615]Fabric.
[1617]hin
[1619]the tie« really a fa
[1621](Portaps. you could tell us since
[1623]® BCRET
[1625]Wy Rm PAUL
[1627]Kennedy administration, |
[1628]|
[1630]|
[1631]|
[1632]|
[1634]: ‘ a of ec. Caer
[1635]i
[1636]i te,
[1637]{von were associated with ft Mall.
[1639]2 | Mr. Kirbow. I want to talk about the testimony that
[1640]BK | was given before the committae on this from two of the former
[1641]4 1 PCLs. Mr. Colby, at both the breakfast briefings he qave and
[1642]© | in testimonv. favored the use of individtal intelligence offices
[1643]{ oo on
[1647]6 || around in these various acancies, originating estimates and
[1649]+ levervthing else: whereas Nr. llelms,. when he testified here,
[1650]savs I really don't know ho: that system is -rorking rictht now.”
[1652]I didn't favor it when Mr. Coalhy astablished it, and 1 had the
[1654]So T think here again vou are talking about a man 'g a
[1658]LO — system and it worked well for ma.
[1660]the individual as to how he wants to run the intelligence
[1662]community and what apparentiv suited Mr. Helms fine didn't
[1664]a
[1666]“suit Mr. Colby and he used a different svstem which he says
[1668]works qreat. And I say that that is, again, a step down thing.
[1670]6
[1671]1? Unless vou want to encourage him to do it ina recommendation
[1672]| and not mandate that he do it, it kind of makes him run his
[1673]- /
[1674]|
[1676]|
[1677]staffing requirements ag thay suit the narticuler times ang
[1678]|
[1679]| pusinese the wavy you want it tun and bo ne apnarent ahuse |
[1680]problems .or anything like that. |
[1681]Sanator Hart. Well, sv anly thought here is that some |
[1682]|
[1684]trving to oinnoint resoorsibility, and tharg. area so many boards
[1686]‘and committers anc rocks te bide hbehim! thak a DCT has or
[1688]ne | future oversicht committes or select committee is gning to be
[1689]Z
[1691]|
[1693]f
[1695]Sor anvhody has chak -
[1697]7 TOP SECRET
[1699]Vou EP & Pk
[1701]BW 50955 Docld:32423509, Page 24
[1703]oped
[1705]6
[1707]sa]
[1711]HW 50955 Docld: 32423509. Page 25.
[1713]i
[1714]i
[1715]i
[1716]he
[1718]|
[1719]|
[1720]|
[1722]advisory board that sits culta far from the process. fach
[1724]bt
[1725](t
[1727]a
[1729]So again, my intent herr is not’ ts hea know -nothina.
[1730]just to keen the structur : ae clean as possible to identify
[1731]responsibility. That's | all. And if this is imnortant to do,
[1732]let's do it. |
[1734]Mr. Bader. The rasncd. Senator, and I can only speak
[1736]from personal experience with the board of national estimates _—
[1738]' my wart of which the hoara’s sole was very imnortent in, shieldin
[1740]L certainly know of at lea¢k cour estinates with which Lt had sin
[1741]both the pct and indesd the analyst From the ravages: in two |
[1742]cases of the military who felt vary strenely that the |
[1743]continuation of .our bases in the Azores was much nore Ampgrtant |
[1744]than sav some hard politinal realities about the future of
[1745]Por tudese Africa
[1747]And. tT could cite ether cases where this kind uF
[1749]insulating funetion was enérmously important. ft had a great
[1751]deal to do with the experience . the backqround and the very’
[1753]presence of some of these board members
[1755]mhey also plav a roils as the chairman of the conrdinating
[1757]sessions of these national nekimates, “there's not yush an
[1759]nivtional intelliacence estimata.. one of these, board members
[1761]hecomes the chairman.
[1762]Sa they de nisv a very achive rale in the mrenaration.
[1764]Mr) Jaron Forteb® Santion that in bhis eonnection vour
[1766]con|carn ahouk tae ance ah itd Re ospeolam. whieh to bid: is al
[1768]TOP ° oRCRET
[1770]Mo tpe ey, P|
[1772]6
[1774]J
[1776]-
[1779]on
[1783]HW 50955 Docld:32423509' Page 26
[1785]|
[1787]|
[1788]I.
[1789]|
[1790]|
[1792]i
[1794]ee oe re ‘3
[1796]i
[1797]y fair one. ve have teshisrone that Halme! dinnoettian on this |
[1799]was very clear. When he sianed the estimate it was his estimate
[1801]and it really wasn't the board's estimate.
[1803]Mr. Maxvell. Perhans if. might be nseful because I think
[1805]it is clear that he is amroweread to do it. Two, if tha
[1807]loommittee desires to make clear that as a recommendation, on
[1809]the basis of the committee's examination of their record that
[1810]. t . .
[1811]| an) 7 oo .
[1812]this is a desirable thingal?r iether than saving that it would be
[1814]f
[1816]emnowered, hy statute, because? he Coes have that nower.
[1818]Mr. Kirhow. Ts ik the dansire of the Committee- though,
[1820]-to chance the current svstem vbich the present. director hg
[1822]mnt seen fit to chance vet. which-she Sas full anthority to
[1824]Dohangea if he wighss to do en and which the nrevicus OCT
[1826]esteblished and develonad isto a vorking mechanisin?
[1828]Mr. Miller. The reeords show that the furcticn of
[1830]the board had heen. officinl results. Then it seems | toa me we
[1834]should so state that it is a desirable structure.
[1836]Mr. Sirbew. T lied one difference with Rill. I don't
[1838]“
[1840]know that it is des trabte to insulate the len from the opinions
[1842]of the resvective 1 military ‘apartments if they have a vested
[1843]interest in the outenma of the tenisinn being renisred,
[1845]Mr. Miller. The beard hae aistinoished members from
[1846]the militery.
[1848]Mp Bbrhew Mes 1 bark knew hee fh gan he red ke
[1850]deoglabte,
[1851]Aces SECRET
[1853]wep &® PUL,
[1855]|
[1856]|
[1857]|
[1858]|
[1859]a
[1860]a
[1861]|
[1863]ye
[1865]8
[1867]i
[1868]ta
[1870]t
[1871]A.
[1873]“)5
[1877]|
[1878]|.
[1879]|
[1881]HW 50955 DoclIa: vaaleano Page 27.
[1883]pO. SRE GO — a
[1885]My, “Miller. Insitsate tha nolitical nreseere. vhat's
[1887]the point. Not the poimt of view of ominion,
[1889]Senator Hart. Mr Chairman, I move that this paragraph
[1891]atay in. that ve move on.
[1892]Senator ituddlesten. vos, t think we discussed that |
[1893]thorouchlyv yesterday, asa matter o£ fact. a .
[1894]Mr. Aaron. on B, this ia the clause which, in effect,
[1895]be . ; . ;
[1896]makes clear that there isa fafinite Jimit to the oCr's authorit
[1898]. _ } .
[1899]and the limit keing the conduct of warfare. at which time’ there
[1901]should he a clear system and orocess whereby these activities
[1904]of the intelliqence community over which ha has responsibflity.
[1906]in some general sense here for ladqet and so forth, that these
[1908]; haste activities come under the Secretary of nefenge. It's
[1910]|
[1912]eimnty recoanizina the Fait that ve really have two problems.
[1914]on the one hand. the sonduer at intelligence in what is sre
[1916]peacetime and the conduct of satettoemce te in wartime. |
[1917]Me. Inderfurth. Pavia. comld we wet some examn les of |
[1919]what high tenaien means? | 7
[1920]Mr. Kirbow. Vie reeninandad that that come ouk. Everyone ef
[1922]hag iaareed on that and Tt othink it waa put back in. It's sonethif
[1924]that you can't define. hye Sacreakary of Rafanse mav roe] neve}
[1927]very high tension hit the oct may not he willing to ctlra "p
[1929]his cenktrol at that Hime ane vou wind up wieh a wrest tiag
[1931]matoh -
[1933]Sevater ark. tert h tebe ares Der sa phx Rat gf ary here nationa?
[1935]FP BRS RET
[1937]wots 5 PAUL ©
[1939]cette TS i ato meee BR a 75 j
[1940]; i
[1942]i
[1944]poo :
[1945]' | emerqency mavbe? . |
[1946]a | Mr, Aaron. Well, ¢ think the way wa came on it was ‘to |
[1947]‘ simply savy if vou have the nrocess for a time of war, the ;
[1948]74 Prasident may exercise it. ana ‘ho may. exercise it if he: feels al
[1950]A The point was just'to have a process and have it understo
[1951]7 [what happens.
[1952]p | "Mr, disenova. Ts it saed fo have a svstew that is
[1953]° | onerating all right tn peaectine and then when vou come to the
[1954]1a | eine you really need, vou qive it to someone else to cun? i
[1955]Lj --. Mr, Aaron, Wall, the requirements change in time oe
[1956]ce doar.
[1957]| Mr. Onanheck. The collection would hecome almost
[1958]ja | completely onerational. The sites would be dedicated to
[1959]19 | enaational nurvoges and thera'd he no purpose to have direction ,
[1960]|
[1961]‘ya | from the DCI,
[1962]| In that ease it would be a supporting military operation.|
[1963]o | Similarly. the naw satellite avstems would he used to support
[1964]“| Ss :
[1965]1a | onaoinag oparations. |
[1966]me Nr, diGenova. In other words, you're saving there” vue
[1967]ny - varv manv national intelliqence needs. |.
[1968]pe | Mr. Ouanheck. Well. ocoromie intelligence would he |
[1969]. on ' rala tively nnimportank. Verifisation of arms control agreements
[1971]vy | My. ditenova. vores talking about the! use of hardwara.
[1972]| MRE OP, oe
[1974]HW 50955 DoclId: 32423509 - Page 28
[1977]r . " CN ag BEL &® ; oa
[1979]q Mr. Quanbeck. Yer.
[1980]2 “Mr. Kirbow. There's no difference of opinion between.
[1982]« |/the former DCI's -- I don't Fnow Mr. Bush's position -- or the
[1984]1 | former Secretaries of Defense. Evaryone concedes that the
[1986]| —— .
[1988]a [control of intelligence should a0 for Defense's purposes in
[1989]« [eine of war, the principal control. |
[1990]ra
[1992]RB has been the Secretary of trance needs the control he has.
[1994]a j had in order to prenare for war and now vou're saving the.
[1995]aa | DCT's aoing to do mora bik von don't want to upset the
[1997]1) | military commanders. And, this ig a way of saying that we ge
[1998]a : H oo 2 :
[2000]Le | understand that in wartime jf is aqoins te to back. It is more
[2002]yz | symbolic.
[2004]14
[2006]t
[2007]i
[2008]|
[2009]Mr, Davis. The noint is, too. the argument in the past
[2010]a ; .
[2011]Mr ..Kirbow. One of the racommendations in the military
[2013]{sh | area we'll come to later is on this same enbject with the bulk
[2015]TOP SECRET
[2017]von BAUL, Lo
[2019]“| the work I quess on ‘the snbject being done by that group. _ |
[2021]1 | Mr. navis. This also hanpens with the clandestine
[2023]13! service today. .In war the clandestine service comes svar ene |
[2025]yo | military commander in the field, | |
[2027]20 . Oe, Aaron. there ara sone arrangements ef this character
[2029]aa hecausa of the exnanded authority of the MCr that is oranted |
[2030]Xu 4 : : oo. : : © 1
[2032]an | hath in the order and our oronosed statute. partion arly in the
[2034]a ax | area of recuirements .
[2036]med | |
[2038]sa | (This important te have kata caveah, Le vouoetl. |
[2040]oe ; - “Mow cecommendatian 1: realty suaqests that. the —
[2042]HW 50955 DocId:32423509 Page 29
[2044], & Kot, é
[2046]| re 7
[2047]j committee . Look at carrvine fhe maria process a step further H
[2048]2 | ana instead | of “appropeiatin or authorizing the appropriation |
[2049]| funds to the different departments for inte? ligence purposes, |
[2050]1 | that in fact tney are authorized to the ner who would then - |
[2051]i Lyarcal them out, and it domen't come down hard to say that this. ;
[2052]Z. | quae +o be done but that, ints is the next logical step in al
[2053]» process and it is 4 sometni For the oversight committea' _
[2054]2 |nocne.
[2055]2 I Noy mumber 19 a |
[2057]i Oe a ;
[2058]ial Mr. Kirhow. I would Like to excent on. that until such |
[2060]time as the whole subject. of the budaat and release of *"¢
[2063]| Fiacures and ‘evervthins else is considsred. the whole hudgat
[2065]i
[2066]4
[2068]a
[2070]I |
[2071]p= || asnect at the same time,
[2073]| Senator Hart. T don't: understand this ex¢aption procedure.
[2075]Mr. Kirbow. Senator Tover has asked the Chairman that
[2077]«| Hew does that work? Lo
[2078]| if there was anvthina that had not heen . in agreement among the
[2080]12 staff, that it could ha hroudht hefora. that! it would certainly
[2082]19 coma to the subcommittee .
[2084]Senator Hark. Mell, the Subcommittee can ‘GO. ahead
[2085]and vote on something. can'h they?
[2087]Mr. Kirhow. Yes.'
[2089] npkhear aomas hefore the Full
[2091]. toe ow
[2092]yeearves hie riehha uhenon
[2094]Committee. 7 aaa aa ‘hare rand ka he excertions Filed
[2096]‘ ca OR PAUL
[2098]i.
[2099]Genator Hark, a hints every member of the Full’ x
[2101]| Sn TOP SECRET
[2103]BW 50955 Docld:32423509, Page 30°
[2105]i geo vee ga et 28
[2106]oT .
[2107]i
[2109]1
[2110]i _ _ ;
[2111]{tts all de novo whan if sete un to the Full committer anyway.
[2112]Mr. Kirbow. I simniv indicated +o the Chairman earlier
[2113]that I didn't Want to have a reservation like that and not
[2115]‘ti point it ont to him because T didn't want the absent member
[2117]| Senator Huddleston. Ha's putting ws on notice.
[2119]9 . Mr, Aaron. OAntton 13, -this option steps wp to the
[2121]t i
[2123]2
[2125]auestion of whethar the Dcr in his new canacity aa the overall
[2129]i
[2130]& i fo appear to be sandbadaging the subcemmittre, | , |
[2132]manager of the community. snd by manager ¢ don't maan down in
[2134]the nuts and bolts but havind the aeneral Management rasponsibiift
[2136]1] | of interpreting the budaak in terms of requirements, in terme _
[2138]ie il ef ceneral quidance For the mninacement of soma of these 3
[2139]t . . . . .
[2140]- : ; oo
[2141]12 jj activities. whether that Funetion should be serarated from that
[2143]of runnina the CIA as an anenav,
[2145]ish Now ve have heard some testimeny about the inconsistency
[2147]16 | between those two resvonsibilities, TI think the arguments, if
[2149]ja llby the wav, there's a-diffarenca of epinten in the staff as |
[2151]19 | to which of these is the righ ene te Fellow. The araument
[2152]oo |-din favor of coing ahead nov t > sanarate them is that these |
[2153]sy jj are inconsietent. that ang cent have, van remove the ber
[2154]vp tl Eyreym a conflict of interes" sLtusation in which he is hath running,
[2156]oa jlone of the nrineinat aveneioe vresnonsthle for nok only clandestine
[2158]teh end davelonmant prodarens ‘that are
[2160]nq Waotivitdes buak fer Ca seat eseumonk of ctiemals intallicenga, the
[2162]an Ideavealorirenk ck merkatn vee
[2164]Po oP SECRET |
[2166]Oye PUL . . . |
[2168]HW 50955 Docld:32423509° Page 31.
[2170]=s)
[2172]ts.
[2173]Ww
[2175]9
[2177]HW 50955 DocId:32423509 Page 32
[2179]de NG te 29
[2181]nosition-of having to judin other people's research and
[2182]development, procrams and other people's: STGIN’ programs, and
[2183]other activities when he is the overall director of Central
[2184]Intellicence. and that therefore this senaration, his removal
[2186]from that, would be a qond idea.
[2188]‘oF crreat interest. to the oom thy, and vou take him out of the
[2190]The second argument is that you really want to nlace the
[2192]authoritv squarely on the pow director of this acency «ho's
[2193]aging to ya resnonsible far clandestine activities. Tf he
[2194]still has a hoss above him who is kind of responsible but who
[2196]in fact hecause of his increased responsibilities won't bat
[2198]that he might, if he didn't have these ¢reater. responsibilities,
[2200]ane shotld make the lines cf suthority clear and lace the
[2201]resnonsibilitv for the head of. this aqdenev on that aadency
[2203]and leave it there.
[2205]‘able ta tive the day toa. day attention to clandes tine activities
[2207]Now the arqumant acaingk that is that --- well, there are
[2211]two kinds of arguments against. One is that the situation now.
[2213]2 3
[2215]is justified and that thie ts-a acod thing and we don’t need
[2217]to make any chanae and thare ara dood reazons te Helieve that.
[2218]The sacond arqumenk + tht Follow in the middie ond says,
[2220]well, there fa soma incenstatenay potentially. There might
[2222]he soma advantades to cemars king then an yall Ag tame cuts,
[2224]bth wa have new yok Pnek ibe ted bhig mes sygtem whorel von have,
[2226]broader cresronsibiliti Poo the PCr. atts aoe hear 1S works fe
[2228]Tor SECRET |
[2230]LR PAUL
[2232]_ bce cee gg eg. Hs _t
[2234]| Oo |
[2235]| Lauhite he fore stenpins nee keene cuestion of whethar he can |
[2236]= | really adequately perform and waar both hats.
[2238]| _ _—
[2239]2 | Those are essentially, Eo think, the «ronments. If there, |
[2240]4 | are -others that oudht to be offerad in exnlanation of the choice
[2241]nl Mr. Bader. Tovonld just under? ine that, ‘it, Chairman,
[2243]+ ithe second point that David has made about recommending the
[2245]p two hats would stav tocdether.
[2247]Lf
[2250]|
[2251]y lleituation to stav. the vav it is todav. That is, that the _ |
[2252]IT think some of |
[2254]us feal that the period in front of us
[2256]tO q will be a perind of axnerimentation and-tasting vhare there ‘are
[2258]1] | new resronsibilities that will flow to the per. We'll seq how | bo
[2260]Ley they work, welll sea whare his authority takes us, Well hee
[2262]oo . oo. |
[2263]12! whether he reaallyv- will in fach establish himself 4s the
[2264]i4 |) resconsible Airector of; in a NCT sense, and we argued here- ‘that
[2266]is | the oversight committee should be attentive to this to sea how
[2268]ie || it works out and that if somatime in the Future after we've had
[2270]: ve a. chance to see how thease svnanded resnonsibllities work in
[2271]1 practice. that will heoa time to see whather the DCT and the
[2272]ral Nrector oF CTA fometion sheula he sevuarated.. |
[2273]on) oe, Naron, t think hade bo araue the first casaa ietie
[2275]an are stronaiv, if To coulda. there area two additional points to oy
[2276]oo |i made about it.
[2278]se 7 oo oo,
[2279]coe i + One ia thet tn Fath hoapipg the second half. wveniing the
[2280]a ; ; : ) Ang
[2282]agqepayvoufltohe ap himedipient ta kim o-' feehivels: runniow the
[2284]on yogeeral] cormmonides 2 -
[2286]for SRCRET
[2290]HW 50955 Docld: 32423509 Page 33°
[2293]HW 50955,
[2295]Led
[2297]5
[2299]ad
[2302]i
[2304]OA
[2308]fas being some. inconsistency to he arqued hetween having this
[2310]Be ee & 4 a “
[2312]So it isn't reallo jurh a cuestion. To would arcue,
[2313]af seeing where the currest svstem takes us. It's a matter of
[2314]lnoking at what we have Ienarned as a result’o: our inquiry
[2316]and saving, in fact. this is amine to be an impediment and it
[2318]is my personal opinion and T think supnerted at least hy some
[2320]testimony that that would he the case.
[2322]The second arqumenk. 7 think, is a somewhat broader one,
[2323]and Lquess t'm not. prenay:l to make ite nur we've had an
[2324]ineuiry tiptoe the CIA, game of its problems. some of its
[2325]accountability problams. some of its manacemant problems, and
[2327]as a rasult of this inquiry there is..at least it strikes fre
[2329]broad inauiry and ending un otth A much stronaer, larger, and.
[2330]nore powerful antral Intelligence Agency tn every respect
[2331]with greater authority. ever othor elements of the intelligence
[2332]community. _
[2334]_Now vou can only carrey that so far but it seems to me
[2335]that there isa serious nuaation here as to, and it is seen in
[2337]nart by other elements of the intelliyence community who really
[2339]sare concerned that hy waariner the two bats, the per will ‘still
[2341]‘raally he revresenting the Neeney vis a vis their particular
[2343]agencies like NSA and the abhers.
[2345]That's the choice |
[2347]Mr. didene al liye. Chedeaoan, EF F covld juet ooke for
[2351]the record that of the wibrets:
[2353]Tor SECRET
[2355]LO; AA BAU
[2359]Docld:32423509 Page 34
[2361]|
[2363]|
[2364]|
[2366]g
[2368]a “ a en. Chee a4
[2370]Sommittee. T believe the vocard reflects that Mv. Schlesinger -
[2372]was the only former DCI whe cad in favor of separating the.
[2374]to testifv who were formar directors favored it, most notably
[2376]Aadency, from the Director and all those who were still alive
[2377]Mr. MeCone and also Mr. Helms, Mr. HelmS characterizing. the |
[2378]|
[2380]'directer.as ending up with a disembodied enirit if he were.
[2382]devrived of. this analytical yohicle.
[2384]So I think as far as the racord aoes. I think the record
[2386].
[2388]is aqainsy divesting the director of the Maenev. although there
[2390]is certainly evidence from those who felt that he should be..
[2391]Mr. Aaron. . Tet me sce if L can clarify that recor@ a
[2393]Jittle more. — . , . = 7 . , | i
[2395]“First of all, the rroposal is not to divest him from the
[2397]analytical and production function, That we clearly provide
[2399]for and !that would not’ take place.
[2401]“The second point is that I believe the record goes to
[2402]the question of sorting out ox saparating the director as he
[2403]has to this time existed in the sort of general kind ef oversee
[2404]and the kind of jawbone authority that he has had. And the
[2405]‘questions that have heen. out to the witnesses generally have |
[2406]haan nut in the context, of shat has ys up until recentiv, his
[2408]authoritv in that canacityv. and © might sav personally I would
[2413]agree with that.
[2415]L.think Lf cen earn #e diverce “he director who assentiallly
[2417]e
[2418]i
[2420]only had dawhenn ankhortie fram ar agency. and the specific
[2422]TOP SECRET
[2424]UATE fe OVE :
[2426]HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 35°
[2428]fF Pk raed HR g
[2432]‘oravity that that gave bin. then he wonald he a disembodied
[2434]= jsnirit. But we're talkin: about a somewhat different situation
[2436]2 now where he has real authority over the budget. |
[2438]ay Mr. °Kirbow. Buk also presupposes. “Mr, Chairman, that “yoy
[2440]® have decided already that vou're coing to. separate. the vet
[2441].
[2443]A | side of the house up there from the clandestine side of the
[2445]7 | house and put them into senparnte agencies.
[2447]a T don't helisve the vommittee has decidad that. The
[2449]2 pshafF mav.have.
[2451]Od : Mr. Treverton. ht doesn't necessarily presuppose that.
[2452]1 Mr. Kirhow. Tf he's coing to put the analytical sitie
[2453]ae aa ; . , 4
[2455]12] of the house over there with the DCT :- — |
[2456]jj Mr. Treverton. Well, in any situation we would leave’
[2457]} : , . _ ; ; : .
[2458]ta the DCL with his responsibility for estimates and a staff to
[2460]18 | do that.
[2462]15 ; I aqrant that the arqument for separating the DCL from —
[2464]Lr i) the CIA is stronger.
[2466]Le a, Senator Huddleston. walt, he vouldn! t he without author dt
[2468]39 lover the Central Intellicenca Aeonev. We recommends the budget
[2469]an |
[2471]the resources.
[2473]Mr. Lombard. t pron tee aE a cauld ask a question,
[2475]We hava had previous PULSs who have teatified that you
[2477]7 8d | omta wae Nae tha cto ef the Pet from the. adency but
[2478]|
[2481]that wad hamedounan floors cnistation as thay then knev it.
[2483]TOP SECRET
[2485]OR PA
[2487]and tasks them. He qived: “hha the rennonsibibity and ‘opportiong|
[2488]y
[2490]BWO50955 Docld:324273509 Page 36
[2492]aah BS fo Ro 88 pee BE Bg . 14
[2493]u -
[2495]po : : . i
[2496]fT . . : ; : |
[2497]Mow mv question is this. Assuming that we were to achiev
[2499]all of the measures in th> recommandations that we have here
[2501]| 7
[2503]For the DCI budqet and all the rest, it seems to me that that
[2505]44s an awful lot of work withent having to be concerned with the
[2507]mn
[2509]|
[2510]l day to day operations ef the “ra. ; :
[2511]I don't know. I jrst raise the question.
[2513]Senator Huddleston, 1! think that's a sood point.
[2515]Ql Me. Lombard. He Firck of all has to vresent the budget
[2517]. : . . . ’
[2518]2 | to the President. He has be defend the budast ur on the hill, - |
[2519]and that's in at least four committees. And then he's got to
[2520]have an analvtical bass, and nresumahblv the national estinfate
[2522]‘fFunetion and oon top of that. worrvina abouhk the day to day .
[2524]na
[2526]ovevations of the Agency.
[2528]TI don't know Lf that if mere than one may should be
[2530]agkad to do.
[2531]- Senator Huddleston. all, when we talk about major
[2532]reorganization and re-assinnment of functions, almost, and.
[2534]j9 | we're probablv confusing that bv continuing to call the man
[2536]ee ne ee te ernment.
[2538]lwho is going to supervise all of the intelligence the OCr,
[2540]Mr. Bader. Senater, hak ve ara antering into here is
[2544]ey, | a vertiod af transition for the Pel whare ha has new ceanonsibili tis
[2546]which are not certain at this onint hey they will hea innlemented).
[2552]; “mes Park nf aur nrohtem with this dacisien is, as ho hean
[2553]H
[2554]ca fi gtaked cand meted. oertoon€ bier fest imer: of farmer pote te
[2556]ea dadainnk the backerroaund of bis prarank situation. Ue meat of
[2558](o> FOP SECRET
[2560]RW 50955 Docld:32423509. Page 37— oe .
[2563]¢ ‘ mr? ARE Re ‘3
[2564]i
[2565]i
[2566]: jit is not reallv relevavt ta the rmestion of wheat the OCr will
[2567]| . a
[2568]9 lle doing if, and I under!ina the word if. these new responsiblli
[2569]* | ties that are being thrust on him by both tle Executive and
[2570]i .
[2571]“4 lfibw the Conqress, are in fact inniemented.
[2572]i!
[2573]| The aratment Iowouwld weko here is that the oversight |
[2575]a , , . .
[2576]m4 ; Sepator Wuddleston. So that's onktion one.
[2577]: _
[2578]1p Mr. Mavis. The Pxecntive Order is ‘an attempt to look
[2580] llcommittee should take some tire and consider this, certainly
[2582]2 Yaarried out.
[2584]ol} tea deputies. and therefore the NCL will have somaone who 4s
[2586]alt be a little careful as to what thak maans. T mean the money
[2588]in light of how these reforms, if thev are reforms, are
[2590]i ilat the problem and toe make ona’ step which says there will Se
[2592]manading his onerationa and takes soma of the burden off and
[2594]that's why they did it. And in a sense. thev recognized the
[2596],« | which we are accepting,
[2598]And when vou sav who prepares the budget. you have to
[2600]a! deostill authorized ke the denactmants. ‘They will still have
[2602]L
[2603]a their own budqetary precass, and how exactly he gets control
[2604]a, }ovar that at this noint ts unclear. Netra giving hin Janquage >
[2606]2 | about how it's aning to hoenen, and T think that's the
[2607]eo, | Aranmeant Far watkine = short time fo sae whethar or net he
[2608]eid ff : : . . . .
[2609]oy | aebuadbly dames ccet combrat..
[2610]ey Mr onaren. To abk teak soy thak ve have bacteok at
[2611]\ , we
[2613]f (OP SECRE
[2614]| , : . wos a om rauL.
[2616]HW 50955 Doctd:
[2618]32493509 Page 36
[2620]T
[2622]+ Ae A A ON NL ne cence ene eee ete sue
[2624]G
[2627]|
[2628]|
[2630]' athis recemmendation as orld one simniv in the eentext of the
[2631]OH .
[2632]- President's own proposals ani ovn measures that ha has taken but;
[2634]an in terms of the measures which we pronosea be Laken in statute.
[2636]B
[2638]| |
[2640]“which of course the oversiahkh committee or whatever responsible |
[2642]lecislative committee vill have the newer te Aisnose of these |
[2644]nronosels or recommendations, |
[2645]Rut in that context it's very clear that we do zive
[2647]varv unambiauous authority. very a@trona amtherityv -- Fo think Tiv
[2649]noked a fow other points chara va actually strenacthened the, |
[2651]thrust of the Emxacutive Order. And sa whan wa look at the
[2653]suestion of whether he should or should not. whether we should
[2657]po ler shonld not recommend that in the eontext of this kind of
[2658]anthority there will alan be davelopment of a statnta that
[2660]weld senarate these functions, it hag to be seen aqeingt what
[2662]is | we nropose and not what the fresident dust orencsed.
[2663]16 : Senator Huddleston. The. fact is that Ff everything
[2664]1 | ove have recommended so far should come to.vass and the ncr
[2666]io || should have the axnanded ressensihbilitv ond authority. he
[2668]rq }wonld he a imare nowerful wan if be was sernarated from the
[2669]ovneration of the Aqency., Ha vwortlid be a more powerful man then
[2671]than ha is now as runnine the Aceney and being the so-called
[2673]er
[2676]oo | eeerdinatoar, would he nok?
[2677]rad ; My. Maydie. Thebia cerrceck. that’s the rurnosge.
[2678]. in / .
[2679]“4 Senator Mathine. the the tensan. deo ce hava aya boskimony
[2680]Yo a ; . pos : on
[2681]mi dp Serera blir onereno beats | he ot Bpev vagy bebo owiew this suctskrone
[2682]“ { ‘ . ; . , :
[2683]TOP SECRE
[2684]FOP SECRET
[2685]| VO Me AOL : :
[2687]HW 50955 Doeld:32423509 Page 39
[2689]ray
[2691]HW 50955 DocId:32423509, Page 40
[2693]1
[2695]a
[2697]mE
[2699]j.vrac discussed, he indicate that this has not created any
[2701]oe reaeommendations was to stee tha not more authority. Bbt
[2703]and wa don'kt have a recor) for. to tale away or recommend takin
[2705]Mr Tembard. be face nema fren Fhe Mtn,
[2707]‘Senator Huddlesten. The TR would favor separating the
[2708]bua,
[2710]Mr. Miller. General Atien has alse said that.
[2712]Mr. Rirhow. .Goners) Ahlen at. the meatinea when this
[2714]problem for him, that he Aidn'+ fea anv favoritism being
[2716]iAdienlaved on the nark ef Mel cmthe and the oooanle he dealt with.
[2718]My, Maxweld. of think that's park of the reason why a
[2719]number of us had favored omkion nmaber ons. was that a qreat
[2721]dee] of the trouble with the Mrastdent's Exeantive order ald
[2723]a er cen on
[2725]for the neriod af time fn which that has not Kaan serted ovt |
[2726]I,
[2728]away essentially the troops that tha oct had used. which in
[2730]rthe future honefully he would not need if recommendations on
[2732]koth sidas enme into heind would he to wanken him at a crucial
[2734]t
[2736]m2 aS nsonle try to FAIL dn tha vacuim that fe creahed,
[2738]Senator Nuddlaston, of thik the cuestion then is whather,
[2740]ar nob what wa are recommoandineg actually comes to nase. If it
[2743]i
[2745]anes come tol pass. then this de oan istue that needs to he:
[2747]artdressed.,
[2749]Mow the obher cvesiden fe shonid sa
[2751]Ain.eitank on it
[2752]in thea reserko arc hopht oos (oe onkiom «oe tndicakas hera, leave
[2754]feoas Lk de oeurtbilo aneh time ce Gh has heen Aetermined that it
[2756]TOP SECRET |
[2758]worse VU
[2760]i
[2761]u
[2762]is
[2763]i
[2764]tod
[2765]'
[2766]fe
[2767]e |
[2768]i
[2770]- |
[2771],
[2772]a]
[2774]i
[2775]|
[2776]i
[2777]t |
[2782]fe) |
[2783]t
[2785]o |
[2787]Q . 4
[2791]|
[2794]|
[2796]co] a oe Bad a 3
[2798]ienuled he advantadeous bo ctrpsrnkm them,
[2800]ls that what we're eiving there?
[2802]Mr. Aaron. Yes. f-think there are really three options.
[2804]nna is to leave the stuff out. and my own personal preference
[2805]would be to leave it nut entirely if the committes did not
[2807]Fael that, if it didn't went to recommend that. it's kind of
[2808]a half-hearted --
[2810]Genator Hart. . Has #7 Administration already taken a
[2812]latep in this direction with the reorcanisation?
[2814]Mr. Aaron. ft has hy charging the new deputy out there
[2816]and saving be's going ke have more authority. , §
[2818]Senator Wart. How dees one revister disaqreement with
[2819]that? VYore for cotion one?
[2821]Mr. Aaron, Tf vou thoudhe that was inadeyuate. you.
[2822]tiquld vote For number one, |
[2823]Senator Hart. FT don't think it's inadequate, 1 think:
[2824]it's wrong. J vote for onticn one.
[2826]Mr. Indarfurth, Thie also comes ur under nart 5(d).
[2827]this. whole Aiscnssion oF notions: separating ont,
[2829]Mr, Aaron. Thakie a senarable aunestion, the auastion .
[2830]of the skrneture of the neaney LteelF.
[2832]Mr. navi. liner Me Bracutive order this new denuty
[2834]for the ivtelliaqence comorntts de nhysicativy moving aut of
[2836]Lenadey aed capi clacorbeccn Thatts siprssed ta be svmbolic
[2837]as well of the gemaret ler -' tha two. reles.
[2839]YOR SECRET
[2841]Wm PAE
[2843]HW 50955 _Docld: 32423509 Page 41.
[2845]La SRNR EY ROR rae
[2848]ia
[2850]brief statement of position?
[2853]q
[2855]Senator Huddleston. cvautd we salve ib bv dust having a
[2857]narrative statement at the and nf all of these recommendations
[2859]|
[2861]relating to. the DCI to sry that the foredoina, preceding |
[2862]recommendations would, t€ carriad out, substantially strengthen
[2863]the role of the DCI or thev are intended to do that? |
[2864]And this brings up the emestion as to whether or not |
[2865]|
[2867]in this exnanded role he should also at the same time he
[2869]essentially resnonsible for the nperation of cone af ths agencies
[2871]‘and that this matter, as his dutiss are exeanded, this matter |
[2873]needs to he considered further and a determination made whether
[2875]or not it's appropriate that he continue ke hold that $
[2876]. .. i
[2878]4
[2884]“that's not a recomontation. “tts just a cormentarv on
[2885]whak we have done.
[2887]Mr, Kirbow, It hiahliahts the nroblem and passes it
[2888]to the oversight committee, shich woulda have time to conduct
[2889]hearinas on it after ome histery had been established on the
[2891]new role,
[2892]Senator. Mathias. tnutd. Sanatoer Hart alahorate on his
[2893]Senator Hart. tT think tha division ont there Fhat
[2894]anvarentiv the President tas varked ort is a had one. and I
[2895]for ene weld Like ta qm omen recerd scmeasheres or anoathsr ag
[2897]emreipar wh.
[2899]Mrop lier. Me yea wean, Tenatoar, that
[2901]TOP SECRET
[2903]weary
[2907]“HW 50955 BDocld: 32423509 Page. 42
[2909]a lile
[2913]Sena
[2915]that w
[2917]This
[2919]Ms.
[2921]Mr.
[2923]ms flexecutive 4
[2924]i . ,
[2926]oF that.
[2928]i the
[2930]vey some
[2932]Sena
[2934]same thing.
[2936]Mr.
[2938]snjutten th
[2940]Sena
[2942]Mr.
[2944]in | responsibilities in other arsas?
[2946]Sana
[2948]of the
[2950]‘Aaron, Seanater. do vou have -- is there another
[2952]ge posal gg Bh
[2954]tor Wart. otoclen’h think thie bittle’ dotted line
[2956]“ imeans a damned thing, frevhly. I've never seen an, organization
[2958]ork in my lifa.
[2959]is the --
[2960]Culbreth. That's enrs.
[2962]Kirbow. . At the presank time. Senator, the Fxecutive
[2964]Order leaves the NCI as teaad of the CIA with a strong kind of
[2966]enuty out thare chat dees the dav to day rurpninag of |
[2968]tor Hart. Hat T Like that ecvally less well. Tha
[2970]punrbr vas Olay ©
[2972]e
[2977]tor Hart. Yes. 0 Loave it the way it is nov.
[2979]Aaron... Make Him ron ik but aive him other
[2981]tor Hart. Well, Uodon't want #9 name -any names but.
[2983]sore of nameless, Foeelass neante that have been
[2985]49} ounk there running operations in affect with some vadve cesnon-
[2987]en ft sibilitv to
[2989]ne l thaga other.
[2991]Sana
[2994]ul .
[2996]oe ii and he dasa
[2999]mad Compa bor.
[3001]HW 50955 Docld: 32493509
[3005]Page 45
[3007]report rmarced.
[3009]tar Muddleston. Well, wa dav that in practice when
[3013]eer bt bores ped fboerrih bo ba veetewad ‘ha
[3014]er pee Bhat eebd}ttonal authority stitt ought Ec
[3016]qi) P ARC PR Fe Ls
[3018]Trem mE,
[3020]Gf indeed theis other recammendatians an inta effec
[3022]ee ee een ep a pe
[3024]7 . Pa ae ahy oo & ;
[3026]i - 4
[3028]‘ Hes oneratina head. - oo
[3029]no You know, that cer be a dissipation of his acenuntabilitvy:
[3031]i
[3033]i
[3035]i : | . : . |
[3036]have aman that is so ievolved in so many other things
[3038]4 i that some nameless nerson is under him calling the shets., But
[3039]5, far we were to move him away frem that! then that nameless persoa
[3040]i
[3042]4 becomes the man that. we rs looking to as far as the operation
[3044]y || of the CIA is concerned.
[3046]mop Mr. Kirbow., At that hime boo vourldan'h you exnect that.
[3048]o of thak carsen would he named as the Director of tha CIR. would
[3050]ha’ nominated bv the President and confirmed by tha Senate?.
[3051]| - My, Miller. What's vrond with having the DCI in charge
[3053]rm | ot the community as Lona as. the depot: is under his direct
[3055]is | conirole
[3058]I ‘ . . : : a . :
[3060]v4 ht iGenator Huddleston. Well. you hava the community of the
[3061].
[3063]_ | HEA. You don’t call the diresekor ouk there the director of the
[3065]WOE. | a
[3066][We should be consiskenk,.
[3068]Mr. Taran. Ootion 2.-- we'd have a clear deputy, wa'd
[3070]lnow who he was. He'd be eenfirmed hy the Senate..He'’d Be a>
[3071]| . . . . -
[3073]man ofletature and ha wouldn't ha anyooly's deputy. Ua would
[3075]aol |
[3076]oe, | ba. rasoonsibie.
[3077]. |
[3078]nO Mr. Kirbow. He woartdn't be a dewnuty at all. -fe'd ba
[3079]po | ae ; MEY
[3080]! : . . :
[3081]az | the dipactor of CIA.
[3082]fo | .
[3083]og | Sancta Hatd drake Vata k se levaka Fhe denyte for
[3084]a ; .
[3085]ee Poomerabdons bo ten Rha hive ctor
[3087]TP SECRET
[3089]WORRY me Ott
[3091]BW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 44
[3093]“3
[3095]16
[3097]fey
[3101]Ot
[3103]ape
[3105]HY 50955 Docld: 32423509
[3107]“ta he
[3109]e ag Jar.
[3111]Ienakor Mathias,
[3113]Pep bhat in
[3115]the titles?
[3116]Mr. Aaron. Not oxackiv because
[3117]MNCL. Mayhe nact of yous asuestioan ages
[3119]and what kind of
[3121]whether you want to deserihm the
[3122]thare,
[3123]Senator Mathias. Neotien @ ts
[3125]excenot fay the semantics.
[3127]Nok
[3129]Mr. Bader. really. Senater.
[3130]Mr. Suanbeck., Ontinn 2?
[3131]would he different from thie “irector
[3132]Myr. Aaron. he guy you would
[3133]the current system still heats be the
[3135]the cuv voy vould hold resnenaihle world: he
[3137]aceney and not Mr. Bus h, in effect.
[3139]remuiremenks there.
[3141]kind of.
[3142]roaaliv
[3143]actually cenparates,
[3145]oF CFA,
[3147]hold
[3149]Nn
[3151]ef toct ktalay except for
[3153]ha-stiil
[3155]a reports to the
[3157]to who that person ought
[3158]oudht te be on that,
[3160]nerson you want out
[3164]The
[3166]oO
[3167]pear)
[3169]resnensible under
[3171]pee. -'ndar option
[3173]the head of that
[3175]Senator inddles tor, IE ve ao to my narrativenaragraph ae
[3177]“Senator Hart. Can on have that written nos and brought
[3178]hack?
[3180]Senator “Mathias. rorhdnk this could be a critical
[3181]reromnendation. .
[3183]Sanator Unddleston. bows qo
[3184]Tine in thora Chat aorseson bey rsutay |
[3185]4 Tee ter at Pos a habbe fh enor:
[3186]anhaal onntationa ab tts Costes! ute
[3188]Cs ee 2 aes
[3190]Page 45
[3192]te and
[3194]to say we miqht add a
[3196]passiblv:to chanda
[3198]renstoiliky fine the
[3200]Lerner Reto nery
[3202]abe mCRET
[3204]|
[3206]|
[3208]|
[3210]|
[3211]|
[3212]|
[3213]|
[3214]|
[3215]|
[3216]|
[3217]|
[3218]|
[3219]|
[3220]|:
[3221]|
[3222]|
[3224]HW 50955
[3226]That would be the voi reason that To wend think that
[3228]vou would move the DCE acey From that.
[3230]Senator Mathias, Mh it does not anrear to me that you
[3232]exonerate vour nationak intellicence officer, whatever vou
[3234]just because, semeone ‘can also point
[3237]i ,
[3239]i
[3240]i! “yo _ . . ‘
[3241]74 I think you'd det tee fish on the same book if something
[3242]a I aoas wrond .
[3243]i . oy : .
[3244]. 1 . . a + .
[3245]Yj Mr, Naron., To think that vould be in nart trie! depending
[3247]paonoumen what the partientar sre Lom wag.
[3248]ry ff Senator Mathias. Well, sure, if their ae
[3249]i :
[3250]| : . : co a
[3251]yo floewk ef wack and they haven’h called du tha ranairman. they.
[3252]a miehe confine the resnarsibility to
[3253]i . 7 .
[3254]ra | Senator Nuddleston. Actually, you don't exonerate him.
[3255]i ;
[3257]inj Qe T see it for the operations o€ the Central Intelligence
[3258]ig |. Agency vou have added tn tin the responsibility for-the
[3259]| . ;
[3260]vo ft onarations of the other int -|livence agencies. too, and he has
[3262]re | kn raviesd authority and be in fact wonld be the flocal roint of
[3263]| : . ara) A
[3264]be any misdeed or wrond dard chhato may oecur. whether Ptie in
[3265]ee PUSS or CTA or whatever.
[3266]t .
[3267]i Mr. Aaron. Utoecetd cesalis: be very similar Fa the rola.
[3268]an ll be would nrw have under ths Vrerubive Order to thea NSA,
[3269]Bey ;
[3270]i
[3271]en | mick closer to that.
[3272]ry | Rot hdres or er re ~omayaavapbh and nrescnh it ithe:
[3274]rn fi bhics efternoon. mm mb ere ce ch omer! ten.
[3275]' ere SECRET
[3276]i
[3277]| Se ors a
[3278]‘Docld:32423509 Page 46
[3280]t
[3282]|
[3283]|
[3284]|
[3285]|
[3286]|
[3287]|
[3289]a
[3290]|
[3291]7
[3292]|
[3293]'
[3294]|
[3295]|
[3296]a
[3298]|.
[3299]7
[3301]\ a ° She SRE ea i
[3303]i 44 |
[3304]a :
[3305]i |
[3307]poe Mow the next geaction peters ta the Central Intel liaence
[3309]Aqency in general. Now become eo much of our inquiry is
[3310]i Focused on the Central tnteltliaence Acenev, we have a rather
[3312]inna series of recommendations reaarding ih.
[3314]BO a Now the sections are briefly these -- these dealing with
[3316]uo the cherter for the Aadeney. for its conde t of esntonede,
[3318]" counter-intelliqence: and caverk action, and the auestion of j
[3320]QP ycaverk action itself. hee ft. niehk he ennducted endowint Limitathe
[3321]{ . , . t
[3322]i ;
[3324]a miahk specifically. ar rules asecl requlaticns miqht anniv to
[3326]if . . .
[3328]- fi,
[3330]ay ab.
[3332]Mm “The vroduction of inbelliesnce. which is on ies’ wayg, buk
[3333]. : |
[3335]io | it's not in here, thera ie anobhar section. Then the impatt on
[3337]the domaskhic world of these eckisities both inkelliqenne
[3339]y4 |eolleation and covert action and t helisve van had 3 90d
[3341]ye | discussion af that longer naner eranared by Mr. Bader the G
[3342]ye } other day.
[3344]And then finally. some Alecussions of the inspection
[3346]in evetem, the ceneral counsel. the insmeetor aenaral ane so forth.
[3348]yo and some resommendations ino vacard to that.
[3350]Aya Thase are tha cant
[3352]Poparts of Lk. Et oinelocted of sours
[3353]. |
[3355]— Loo,
[3356]oy seh mathers agonroorieberion, onver and soa forth. :
[3357]am . |
[3358]a6 Now if we could bisa be toe First set af raceauondations,
[3359]on | me queho maka sure that bhore ara bab cligadresmerntes on the
[3361]7 “|
[3362]a4 fi boavk Phat onead te Cee byossdhh bry coir at boenkiean.
[3363]aan | gt Pages yd, Beith bbe w es are) Thera aro Rhine; Bhat |
[3365]i , . , ; |
[3367]war gt og a tir on] . 1
[3368]| POP SECRET |
[3369][ woe no rR A |
[3371]HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 47
[3373]HY 50955
[3375]fom,
[3376]Mr,
[3382]|| Brkt
[3384]o
[3387]Mr.
[3391]there ara
[3393]fhat um,
[3395]Mar
[3399]Myr.
[3401]Mr.
[3403]machinery
[3405]serviee
[3407]i .
[3408]mas
[3409]3 Findiner
[3410]ay 4
[3413]4
[3414]i
[3416]Docld:32423509 Page 46
[3418][osre aareacd unon at the o's! tees] that vara jefk ok -
[3420]one but several things that vere aareed on ak the staff level
[3421]i that subsequently found thetx cas back hers in the exact
[3423]oriqinal lancuace,
[3425]any others hefarvea
[3427]or
[3428]Aaron. I have one hare,
[3429]Kirhow. Well. duck far your information. there
[3431]be several thinds chich were nok just an occasional
[3433]Towonlbocdwelboer fhe th now.
[3435]Raran. (Cla be Gneuw te take thak ouk too dee what ve
[3437]joan do aban it.
[3439]the Fireb brackosk that DT fFlud is om page 3S, £
[3440]. . . + BS
[3442]that that neaenle have. wa can take
[3444]Maxwell, Pherete mne oan 27. Teta natoa hreacket but
[3446]2) was acstatement that est? have been theluded as to -the
[3448]jcommittee's findings as. to inkernel enntrals on espionade
[3450]by the Central Takelligcenne Agency.
[3452]Aeron. Yes. I reveal) that one,
[3454]Measywall. Also on thak nace thera'ts ny av fective
[3456]to make sure bhet thase outricde the clandestina
[3458]Po think that was avvlressed toa thea CIA beoeuss unless
[3460]Se mada ak fhe CEN that the DCT at thig mein. the
[3462]Poepj rary Todor rps bees
[3464]TOR 3
[3466]a RR
[3468]Oe neeewe ne toe ae ee at © iat
[3470]oF he . ona) % 16 ~
[3471]if
[3472]i .
[3473]to Mr. Caswell.  Plescroessad Papp oavaiecanh en ft the way
[3474]iy . . .
[3475][. . |
[3476]Pat reads. it assumes thai the Pirsctor of the Central Intelligen
[3477]if :
[3478]ll nqency who is outside the clandestine service is not able to
[3479]| |
[3480]if _
[3481]dob ensure --
[3482]1 , . . :
[3483]{ . ; - . a . oo, : .
[3484]Boy Mr, Aaron, [To ounderskand. You're right. Okay, if these
[3485]of are aqreed things and thas have been dranned out, then let's |
[3486]7 fl dust get them hack in.  £ Ann'k know that we have to take the |
[3488]. 1 oo ‘ . . .
[3489]2 subcommittee 's time te de io. on ;
[3490]GUL Bet if we missed seme Fhak cere disaareed and naad |
[3491]i; . ; . : .
[3492]req to he khrowtht fo the aubommetbbhoe . Tt Likes to make sure we |
[3493]i a |
[3494]iid aek them out. | — : ?
[3495]tt . . .
[3496]; 2
[3497]res | Sepator Huddleston. wR ha bebrer of the nade-on 33, |
[3498]| : =. |
[3499]. is ffmevte it's dust ret coming theosdh te me but the “lA angages |
[3500]1a | in beth overt and elandeshive ackivityv ithin the United States
[3501]all for the rurnose of foreian inkealligence collection hy evert |
[3502]yall means from American citizens.
[3503]on |
[3504]| ; |
[3505]pe dl Mr. Raren. Tim sorry. C think thak foreign intelligenc
[3506]i . - .
[3507]a . . Loy . om oO ,
[3508]sof eellection. meried, and tren the rest of that sentence comes
[3509]wy . oo .
[3510]io four.
[3511]on | Ane then it says the domechtia collection dees the overt, |
[3512]It . . . : . t
[3513]7 and the foreian resoure feed fhe coverk,
[3514]i : . , : - . : . ;
[3515]nye | Okav. my first bracket is on made 36 and it is that the
[3516]an
[3517]| tad
[3518]: ev jl Geomibtee auegtions Pho practice af recebhine for
[3520]bs thak bh pa haya in the oast been
[3523]4
[3524]i
[3525]yo
[3526]“4 iogerdans
[3527]i
[3528]1
[3529]i
[3532]{ .
[3533]| "he nedivk Gas
[3534]‘ : - .
[3536]i
[3538]TURP SECRET
[3540]He RR se
[3542]Lo: an os
[3543]BW 50955 Bocld: 32423509 Page 49
[3545]mppreeaca 0 dwt ts deedyegrcn Areordenn ethisendhic.
[3547]HW 50955
[3549]\ . .
[3550]Hoy A . ’ ra
[3552]i i dnetances in which thnoee shea cere dumicranka to the
[3553]| a,
[3554]| . a :
[3556]Son
[3558]who wished to have citischechin vere then approached
[3560]H intelligence agencies and either sent back «os leaal
[3562]and what have you and the question being. the point
[3564]vulnerable wanting to
[3566]boing that their abate of
[3568]8h jPeitizershin in the country morte them more
[3570]either actual or implied or sven imaqdined
[3572]2 | aoercion,
[3574]Qo | Mr, ditenova. Can Toseh a quection about tha
[3576]jo | kotatlv unfamiliar with the subject and F'4 ike to
[3577]11 | the eavyidenre was on the recocd,
[3579]i . .
[3580]ot Mr. Aaron. Te cama ous: in two vases that T
[3582]Like for PLL] to sreak to one of therm. cone
[3586]ia fi the Chinese in which the Chivese were anrreached and
[3587]iq |) this purnona, To am nok avara of anv kestimoany that
[3588]ref bn fact coercion involved. ‘The quastion was the
[3590].
[3594]whather it has within it elements of enercion or at
[3596]imatential for it.
[3598]have
[3600]threats or
[3602]practice
[3604]'
[3605]t
[3606]j
[3607]'
[3609]inited States
[3611]by the
[3613]travellers |
[3614](
[3615]i
[3617]of concern
[3619]nermanent
[3621]l
[3622]|
[3623]|
[3625]susceptible to
[3627]imaqined
[3629]t? I'm |
[3631]knaw what
[3633]3
[3635]Sa
[3636]recall ahd
[3638]tnyolved
[3639]there was
[3640]and
[3642]least the
[3644]|
[3645]|
[3646]|
[3647]|
[3648]|
[3649]|
[3650]7
[3651]|
[3652]|
[3654]PA
[3655]|
[3656]ra How the sacond conse. T thipk von mean sneak boa,
[3657]ney Mr. Beder. Wa have. roveicad testimany From a rrofessor
[3658]i cto, . : : : i a
[3659]eo, froma university in-the Conthwasgh that esid that ie had acted —|-
[3660]A . oo . ; mS j
[3661]no | or was thea middjeman in an soeration cf. recruitment of Jewish
[3662]en tf Fueetan drviarants who cues bo the tindtod “ratag whe fo particular
[3663]7 ie .
[3664]eg ere Intergstad fe cays gt bie Nometan Tevish dmtorenta wie
[3668]i
[3672]—_ FOP SECRET
[3673]! | .
[3675]Docld: 32423509. Page 50
[3677]HW 50955 |
[3681]f
[3683]9
[3685], whether we should, the Cantral Intelligence Aqency should be
[3687]4 . rien | Cre |
[3689]i
[3690]would return to the United Shates 1 mean the Soviet mion.
[3691]We did not take that. testimony anv further than receiving | his
[3692]testimony. - That is, we have not taken it to the point of”
[3694]asking the agency whether in fact they have such a program
[3696]in the Southwest. So the testimony was Limited to that one
[3698]charge which I. personally save some real credibility to. ©
[3700]Ms. Culbreth. can you explain just what the charge is
[3701]here? What is the wrong thet has been done? .
[3703]Mr, Kirbow. What's wrong with that? That's the question|
[3704]T had in the original sidgastion at the staff lavel,
[3706]The only human collecticn we are getting from behi:
[3708]the Iron Curtain in Russia today is principally either though
[3709]our cooreration with the Teraeli intelliqence community using
[3710]just this sort of individial and sending them back, or sending
[3712]this tyre of individual from the United States back inside.
[3714]We ' ‘re not getting the other human intelligence.
[3716]‘Mr. Bader. I waa only “responding to the question of
[3717]what the testimony was.
[3718]To qo on to the further issue which TI think id going -
[3720]to he addressed by the Committees. it's not the question of
[3724]recruiting foreigners in this country for intelligence purposes |...
[3725]people whe may return to their country of oricin:
[3726]The rmeatien in vhethar the individual vhe is in the
[3728]nrcoass of sealing Ame ters cttigenshin are in auctes "“vulnerab
[3730]TOP SECRET
[3734]Docld:32423505 Page 51
[3736]i goo SBA as 8 _ %9
[3738]to exploitation for such vernoses and whether in that shading
[3740]fae)
[3742]the Committee would want to take a position about recruitment
[3744]= icf that particular group.
[3746]n ¢
[3748]4 fh ' Mr. diGenova,. My position is this, Bill. The first
[3749]| time I heard about this was when I read it in these findings
[3750]. za jana corclusions. I never saw a hearing on it, T never saw a
[3751]7 I document about it; Iinever hada chance to comment on it as.
[3752]a ‘a desianee, and I never had a chance to bring it up with my
[3753]9 Senator.
[3754]a) | I'm not sure that we vant te say this, ask the Senators
[3755]; Dee
[3756]i | t0 say this, without having something in a report about wiht. | ;
[3757], 7 a oe a ot
[3758]12 lthe nractice is, how it's been conducted, who has objected to |
[3759]“42 it. what's the extent of it, before we start making a |
[3760]14 | recommendation.
[3761]is | We're saving we auedkion the practice of recruiting, |
[3762]- . _ I have no objection to the Committee ultimately making.
[3763]we | a statement like this, I just don't know what the record is.’
[3764]1a Ii'this is the first time I‘ve ever seen this.
[3765]12 Mr. Bader. That's why I wanted it bracketad sa it could |
[3766]on | be so discussed. — , oe
[3767]21 “Senator Hart. het if se sald we vege the nerminent |
[3768]|
[3770]» loversight committee to Ieol into this question?
[3772]Mr. Aaron. T think th would maka some sense to have
[3774]23 ||
[3775]24 | antken the Ageney an the reeert that in fact this ie > nractice
[3778]t
[3780]of Vor RBomethine that, hanneses,
[3782]TOP SECRET
[3784]| , MATH fe PAUL
[3786]HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 52
[3788]mai UP
[3790]Ll Senator Hart. If it's hanrnening, [ don't think it should
[3791]if we have to sacrifice sume human intelliqence, I don't think -
[3793]we ought to have a CIA guy tuaging on. somebody 's sleeve who's*
[3797]filling out his immigration forms because it is a verv subtle
[3799]4
[3800]| i
[3801]5 jj and very powerful form of coercion,
[3803]6 I don't think it should ao on if it is going on but ..
[3804]7 iT think the oversight committee should find out.
[3806]e | Mr, Rader. It's my narsonal position on this that -
[3808]19 Loom to a conclusion on this
[3809]LL | I nearsonally think that Lt's a problem that shouldbe
[3813]9 wa don't ave the evidence, Wea have nat taken it through to |
[3815]nointed out, and I think nerhang niv own view is that the
[3816]12 | formulation of a recommeanation to look into this ag a possible,
[3818]LAL ags-a problem would be my recommendation.
[3820]15 _ T don't believe thak is Ravid's recannendation,
[3821]16 Senator Mathias. T would think that you might as yeu
[3822]| contemplate this thing. there are all tvoes ot opeortunities tay
[3824]| For this and t don't have any idea whether it's been sone or not,
[3825]| but I Gould think an dlledal alien, for examnie, would be a
[3827]| tremendous target.
[3829]| “Mee Aaron. Tomight jnek aav as
[3831]“Sanator Mathias. This a differant nroblem,
[3833]Mr. Naron. Tt's a subtte nrohlem because abroad l persons
[3834]was involved inv a case da rhieh someone .seaking to omidrate to
[3836]Of |e Tnited States, hie destra to co thak was exntcit ted abroad
[3838]TOP SECRET
[3840]we ot &® PAUL
[3842]HY 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 53
[3844]7 t as ar a1
[3845]! -
[3846]| |
[3847]; | cor the purpose of qettins him inte the Ageanoy.
[3848]- ' Senator Mathias. ibis ds the kind of situation I'm
[3850]3 thinking of, perhaps not an illecdal alien. but someone who is
[3852]|
[3853]i . .
[3855]4 1 4in this country in soma sert of lagal status but which is of
[3856]i ;
[3858]. to, . .
[3860]5 || temporary duration and he wants to change his status.
[3862]a Senator Iluddleston.. 1 can see that. Of course you're
[3864]9 net going to get one unless there's something he wants. Most
[3866]RQ af them, it's either money or some change in his status.
[3869]a Mr, Aaron, Wea drafted this languace to make clear that
[3872]y1 [lor neonle here changing thetr status or people outside trying
[3873]. : toe
[3875]|
[3876]! |
[3877]| _ . |
[3878]er were really immiarants and they were not illeqal aliens©. |
[3879]yo | te get in, but neonle who are inside anpniving for their |
[3881]a
[3882]13 citizenshin.
[3883]14 | . Senator Hart. We could offer an ontion to have the
[3884]is, | Statue of Liberty sav qive us your huddled masses if you work
[3885]“14 for. the CIA.
[3886]1? Senator Tuddleston. L think there's a legitimate concer:
[3887]ja | and that exploiting people vio legitimately want to be United
[3888]vo | States citizens. |
[3889]2c | I also helieve that. partionlarly anvone from the soviet |
[3890]al union over here trvine ta hdchma an Ameri¢an citizen, it's |
[3891]De aping to pretty well diminish his chances if he doar a9 hack. -
[3892]oz | to the Soviet tnion that he's aging to be taken into the
[3893]fk canfidanae ef vers many oeonle over there,
[3894]26 | Mr, Mirhow. This fa nob an uncommon practice for the
[3895]— TOP SECRET
[3896]. Warm & PAVE
[3898]HY 50955 Bocld:32423509 Page 54
[3900]rs . § 7 Ss 2
[3901]BP fe mS os FB
[3905]I
[3906]jive States. We've hern daina it in the United States
[3908]military for generations in giving earlier consideration for...
[3910]citizenship if he serves on active duty as en alien in the
[3912]|
[3914]|
[3916]|
[3917]ra
[3919]& It's heen done as leng as I can remember and I was in
[3921]United States. armed forcas.
[3923]6 |; the military over: 25 years.
[3924]7 . Mr. Maxwell. I think the only question is if we po
[3926]B recommend against this practice if we don't oven know --
[3928]Q Sepator Huddleston. Tk hothers me that we would indict
[3930]|
[3931]to | the Aaency with such scant evidence we have,
[3932]LW | Mr. Aaron. My recommendation is that we'-get- thavagency |
[3933]124 on record as to whether this is the practice or not, -
[3934]13 Mr, Kirhow. I recemmand “it be dromped from thie if
[3935]14 | we “had orily one witness and ve've not heard the Ayency or
[3936]45 that we develop a record to supvort both that andthe’ same
[3940]1s | rere ot of that first paragraph, which E don’t think we have a
[3941]|
[3942]|
[3944]17 ree ord on either. i
[3946]18 Mr. Aaron. We do have a record on that. ‘It's an
[3948]19 | interview record, it's not a avorn ‘testimony. record. “But the
[3950]20 i. first sentence. thére is an interview to support that. 7
[3952]a1 an “Mri. Kirhow. Mr. Chairman. I think the subcommittee thea
[3953]\ oe
[3955]20 should carefully consider whether or not it is concerned about.
[3957]intetiieence and tf so. bow this imnacks on anybody's rights
[3959]or otherwiee,
[3961]2% + the tise of American cornpanias in the pursuit of foreidn
[3962]i
[3964]WAHD %& PAUL
[3966]| FOP SECRET
[3967]| 7 -
[3969]HW 50955 DoclId: 32423509 Page 55
[3971]part
[3973]9
[3975]HW 50955 DociId:32423509 Page 56
[3977]| When we talk about expressly vrohibiting penetration of
[3979]| or not we're penetrating those companies with company executives).
[3981]g 22 SRI 53
[3982]“We just went threvsh this the other day with the labor
[3983]unions. The whole paraqvech.
[3984]Senator Huddleston. — have some concern with that too.
[3986]American companies, it seems to ne that the question is whether
[3988]being unwitting or whether --
[3990]Mr. Aaron. That's the point.
[3992]Sevator Huddleston. It seems to mé the real problem is
[3994]jwhen we were doing it secretly. — |
[3995]Mr. Aaron. And that's the point. :
[3996]Senator Huddleston, The company ought to have the
[3998]right to make a determination as to whether or not its interest
[3999]would be severely jeovardized if this were to happen.
[4001]Mr. Treverton. f think ‘this lanquaqde Srebably isn't.
[4002]clear enouch. TE we did human penetration without the
[4003]knowledge of the company on the overation of the company”:
[4004]orimartiiv tao | |
[4006]Mr. Kirbow. Welra talking about a corporate opetation
[4007]against a U.S. company in the United States? -
[4009]“My. Traverton. Presumably it would nok be in the u28.
[4011]Mr. Kirhow. Tf that's what's intended, it dees not |
[4013]convay it to evan an informed reader; |
[4015]anakor fluddiester, Mell. we sav foredan intelligence
[4017]in
[4019]collection.
[4021]. ts : m4 .
[4023]TOP SECRET
[4025]AN & PAUL
[4027]pa
[4029]4
[4030]PFna 20. b 2
[4032]6
[4034]HW 50955 DocId:32493509 Page 57
[4038]which created the sentences?
[4040]ioniv a fey cases,
[4042]ates? SEEK S
[4043]. 54
[4045]Mr. diGenova. May t ask in this reqard, it ends up
[4047]hy saying, although accerding to CIA officials such activity
[4049]has not taken place ~- what's the other evidence that it has
[4051]Mr. Aaron. In looking at what the foreign resources
[4052]division does in the way of venatration of businesses as
[4053]opposed to collecting aqdants on campuses or in some other
[4055]walk of life. we found that the Pp actually runs agents in
[4057]The cases are Americans smnloyed by local. industries in
[4058]the United States or consulates,
[4059]In other words, in ditlomat consulate establishments
[4061]in which there area few cases in which indeed the Americans
[4063]working for those diplomatic establishments are agents of the
[4065]Cth through the foreign resources division; and the aneticans
[4066]are not officers of the CIA bnt they vere agents of the CIA
[4067]in. that resnect. | . ,
[4069]ur. Kirhow. They vork iin the embassies as: you any?
[4071]Mr, Aaron. Yes, Nare in the United States. and this
[4073]jis talking about domestic imract. This is not ‘thé foreign
[4075]situation.
[4076]There has been at leset one caer and 1 belive there are
[4077]tuo but onty one Tocan epectfy. in which the FRD had oan
[4079]American adent ino foretam company. a Foratqn-haced ccmnany.
[4081]It was very unambiguous that tha company was a fnrelan company
[4083]TOP SECRET
[4085]WARD A PAR
[4087]tod
[4089]“2
[4091]g
[4092]10
[4094]Li
[4096]12
[4098]14
[4100]16
[4108]as to the order of magnitude o£ the recommendations that flow
[4110]Br ne Rey hg FH BR aa
[4112]because in effect it was a nublic comnany of a country whose
[4113]most business enterprises are owned by the government: But
[4114]it's a company and it's business and it was a foreign company |
[4116]and the question was, and it related to --
[4119]|
[4120]|
[4121]Mr. Kirhow. And this saent was apparently here in the
[4122]United States? | | —— |
[4124]. Mr. Aaron. Collectina intelligence on the activities “of |:
[4125]that company because that comoany had foreign policy implication
[4127]for us.)
[4129]The next question that’ was put to, I believe, the chief
[4130]of the FRD was do you have any reaulations that prohibited. o
[4131]you from doing the same thine with an American company?’ And
[4132]the answer was no, we don't, although we don't do that or .
[4134]we haven't done that or something to that effect.
[4136]That is essentially the story and how it came to pass.
[4138]ne teeter ne
[4140]Mr. Maxwell, There's some question on both of these.
[4142]shether there are ways of saving things that are important
[4143]as recommendations without implving that A, these had gona on
[4144]and B, that we have a record to. support that.
[4146]there's also. I gugss, a elight question in my mind
[4147]from this in the promulcation of a apecific directive.
[4149]That's slightly out of synch with the order of some of:
[4151]the other recommerdations. The Committee might want to choose
[4153]to dren that -to a fontrets or ta co it in some cther vay,
[4155]TOP S&CRET
[4157]SAAT & PAE
[4159]ee act
[4161]HY 50955 Docld:327423509 Page 56
[4165]Get se | 56
[4166]| |
[4168]rt Mr. Aaron. The vornommendation that relates to that is.
[4170]2 —
[4172]3 Mr. Maxwell. I thought that we had made a finding. It
[4174]A was, number 25 on 39, That's a somewhat different order. .
[4176]5 Mr. Aaron. No fT take it that --
[4178]6 | | Senator Huddleston. ts this penetration always incthe. |
[4179]4% context that it's unwitting? 7
[4181]Q Mr. Aaron. Yes. If Lt's witting, it's really collaboratic
[4182]Q which is another matter. i
[4183]10 Senator Iuddleston, $5 although you could be witting --
[4184]144 Mr. Aaron, Well. the nenetratina also applies and
[4186]12 | mavhe we should also make thia clear, but for the purposes of
[4187]1s conducting some creration with reqard to the ordanization, oe
[4189]ia | ohather to make it do something in the covert action sense
[4191]LS. which. collect information on it, |
[4192]16 If it were simply unwitting cover, that's a different...
[4194]ia thing. :
[4196]18 | Mr. Maxwell. I don't think, avid, that penetration was
[4198]19 | used in a context in the agency in the NH/BOUND ~~
[4200]Mr. diGenova. Penetration was for security purhoses.
[4202]20 -
[4203]9y | Ib's to discover whether or not there is in fact a fly in the f
[4205]og | ointment with reqard to the security nf an American company. .~|-
[4206]bs thet's the way tbo was used in Mu/ROUND, oa
[4207]a | cenator Rutdlestan. That's putting a eny in the
[4209]ag || orcanization.
[4211]| TOP SECRET |
[4214]HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 59
[4216]9
[4218]“190
[4220]LL
[4222]12:
[4224]13
[4225]14
[4229]16
[4231]Lt
[4233]second one it seema to me that if we could frame some" languadei
[4235]OY. HSA I Beg *
[4237]Mr. diGenova. Welt, vas. In this case they penetrated
[4238]Burbank, California and other companies, mostly defense ca
[4239]contractors building planes in nrder to find out they haa a
[4240]security risks, a laborer ot an executive inside.
[4242]Mr. Maxwell. It was witting. to a certain extent. |
[4244]Mr. Bader. I think one of the problems we have here is. |.
[4246]this question of whether in cur formal recommendations that we‘ ‘|
[4248]| should enjoin the agency From doing things that they don't do.
[4250]And where, there's no evidence thev have any intention me
[4251]Mr. Kirbow, The '47 Act nrohibits this kind of conduct
[4253]within the United States.
[4255]Mr. Bader. And.T think that that should be carefully~
[4257]considered. We have no evidence that the Central Intelligencé)
[4259]“Agency penetrates Congressional staff, but we have nok put it
[4261]in as a recommendation thak thev ahould not penetrate
[4263]Congressional staffs.
[4265]I think the other matter that has been raised abou the
[4269]onerational axploitation of racruiting individuals who are in.
[4271]an immigrant Status and seeking a change a change in étatis, ~~
[4272]we do at least have wnat I hela to be a responsible soturce Ao
[4273]saying that this practice, he has seen this in practice.
[4277]“I think we should senarate the two issues and on the
[4279]that is lanauage cf eantion and concern. or we should move very
[4281]auicklv. it saems to me. ke taka come testimony from the Agency
[4283]TOP SECRET
[4285]WARE & PAUL
[4287]HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 60
[4289]oO
[4291]LO
[4293]11
[4295]fay
[4298]|
[4299]The cuestion is if the Committee gets asked a cuestion:
[4300]|
[4302]4 : et Oe oo A hee fe
[4303]on that mater hefore we vay talk about the matter of the |
[4304]nractice. of recruiting hecause I don't think we can use the.
[4305]word practice until such time as we have --
[4307]Mr. diGanova. I didn't mean to iinugn the inteqrity
[4309]of your source.
[4311]boot
[4312]s
[4314]‘about it later on and someon® comes back and reviews these
[4315]records and sees one rerson vas spoken to or something, r
[4316]don't realiv think that's much of a record to go around making ~
[4317]findings and conclusions in 2 final report.
[4319]It has nothing to do with the integrity of the man from. |)
[4320]whom the information came. He's probably right. |
[4322]Mr. Aaron. I'd like to recommend that on that particula
[4324]noint we tried to nail down with the Agency a little more
[4326]carefully what the current nolicv or practice is and on the
[4327]question ~-- but I still stand with the view, I might gay, on |
[4329]‘the second one of expressing concern if indeed there is a. -
[4331]nractice and we do know that sosie of it has taken place in the.
[4332]nast, if there's still no quard against it, then I think perhapa |
[4333]Senator Iart's recommendation about hew the oversight committee
[4334]shonld pursue this auestion firther would he sufficient. —— |=
[4335]Senator Huddleston. Well, paragraph 22 over on 39. |
[4336]Lf arvlied to the FRR, would ke a pretty good approach, I think |
[4338]Mr, Aaron. That ce rld nok necessarily rile out -- it
[4340]would not step un te fois isestion, This really is aimed abroac
[4342]TOP SECRET
[4344]Wet & PAUL
[4346]BW 50955 Docld:32473509 Page 61
[4348]Hey l et) Se a
[4350]/ at the question of duplication wtth overt reporting by the
[4352]2 military attaches or by tie foreian service or whomever.
[4354]ca In other words , it's trying to establish a standard.
[4355]4 ; _ Senator Huddleston. Okay, so where are we?
[4357]5 Mr. Aaron. I think ué'ra at the Following point that
[4358]6 as far as the bracketed sentence is concerned, we'll go back
[4360]is necessarv of including tla paragraph alons the lines:
[4362]: to the Aqency and establish what the practice is when review.
[4363]|
[4364]| suaqested .vy Senator Hart saving the oversight committee should |
[4366]10 | look into this particular prantice if indeed it is a practice
[4368]Vy | with the absence of policy on this point. i
[4369]12 ' As to the question of American companies, I think I
[4370]14 || still need te be directed as to how to deal with that. I
[4372]think when in doubt, delete.
[4374]16 | we say it's a good practice?
[4375]vel Mr. Aaron. Well, the: Committee notes that it's been
[4377]Senator Hart. Can we just commend them for that? Can |
[4378]13. the practice not to do this ana that that should continue as _
[4379]oe |
[4381]t
[4383]ja) a part of their standard proceduras.
[4385]50 |. “Senator Mathias. liave we ever conmended them?
[4387]e
[4389]oO] Mr. Rader. There in much text here which talks about
[4391]2p sensible, - resvonsihle practices,
[4393]22 ‘Senator Mathias.  T do think vou should mention that we'fe
[4394]ea | talking about their domestic onaration=s of American commanies.
[4396]“Toe SECRET
[4398]‘ADR EE Fy PR
[4400]| | anes pe |
[4401]25 | “Mr. Aaron. Yes... FRY is sepposed to tell vow that but: |
[4402]|
[4404]HY 409545 Docla: 32423509, Page 62
[4406]Heh os eT er | on
[4408]|
[4411]. qf
[4413]" fait doesn't .
[4415]ei Senator Mathias. I think on page 36 and 39 it ought .-
[4417]3 | to refer to domestic operations. .
[4418]i ; . . wk
[4420]at Mr. Kirbow. I think wa miqht want to consider too that
[4422]° | there's an extensive section of the domestic activities of the
[4424]6 | CIA coming into the domestic task force report; the subconind tted!'s
[4425]‘F i renort. And if don't put in a : comment Like this. it'll
[4426]a orehably Sal qo in that other section. thareas hera we're |
[4428]3 dealing with an apparent nossihility that sometime in the i
[4430]remote future there could be ah abuse and thére’” dealing with.
[4432]the. abuse section and this kind of departs from what you!
[4433]. . Lo . i
[4435]i
[4437]done otherwise.
[4439]‘Mr. Rader. I would say on that score that this is a
[4441]foreion intelligence matter. That is the objective, And TI
[4443]here.
[4445]Mr. Kirbow. It is on the immigrants, but TI don't think:
[4447]|
[4449]|
[4451]is | think if it's going to he mentioned, it should he mentioned
[4452]whether or not you're penetrating an American company to,
[4453]i
[4455]illegaliv or anything e153. if there's any way you can aet arou a.
[4457]it
[4459]Len
[4461]20 the 1947 Act which prohibits that kind of. activity hy the |
[4462]pi. | CIA in the United States for whatever purpose, td penetrate |.
[4463]jo | them other than. séeurity of vour own facility: of
[4464]an, Mr; Maxwell. One thing that miaht make this easier is r|-
[4465]ea | think that if vaarnrasaad and conaern in that directicn exiaté |
[4467]2 | in reqard to this practice. ue vould aet one nromutcdaked quite |
[4469]2 | ; -
[4471]i ; By 4 : r
[4472]TOP? SECRET |
[4473]| . fo Aen & PAUL 4
[4475]HW 50955 ° DocId: 32423509 ‘Page 63
[4477]yeah A . i WA h Be ad
[4479]I.
[4480]|
[4482]|
[4484]1 oniekly.
[4486]a Mr. Aaron, I would recommend that we accept the
[4487]© auqgestion that we put this in a positive sense and proceed-
[4488]4 i} on that basis and clarity the word penetrate and the fact
[4489]3} | that it is the domestic aspect.
[4490]4 .. . Mr. Kirbow. Could ve ask the Agency to comment in
[4492]2 some way so that at least wa don't. recommend to you that you ~~ ne
[4494]| APO me PAUL
[4496]a | , Mr. Aaron. rtd be hanny to do that acain.
[4497]oii Senator Huddleston. Wall, now it's 12:00, TI hope there |s
[4498]10 |) some wav we can get through this today, which would inelude |
[4499]| of course a night session which Senator Mathias and I are hs
[4500]3 available for. |
[4501]1s | Wa'va done 38 naqes out oF 160.
[4502]" Mr. Aaron. I think it will give Focus assentially on |
[4503]5 | the reconmandations and the bracketed portions that that “|
[4504]18 | ghould prove possible to at least break the back of it.
[4505]1? | Senator Huddleston. ‘a can at least try. .
[4506]18 My, Barons If we come hack at 2:00, I think we could
[4507]12 ntohably have cleared avae a couple of the other sections and
[4508]20 then we will be really ready. fe will have the full book here | -
[4509]aL | and wa can qo at it; | |
[4510]nO . - Senator Mathias. 2:09, I think. would be hetter for me: |:
[4511]23 | Let's say 2:00, | | a
[4512]ed "  geanator Huddleston. Het adjoren until 2:90. |
[4513]25 | (Whereucon. ab 12:09 o'clock noon, the hearing in |
[4515]| TOP SECRET | !
[4517]|
[4519]HW 50955 Docld: 32423509 Page 64
[4521]wyiter ots, uo . go. ‘ Br Hay “Shee #6 ase A . Vs
[4523]the above-mentioned matter vas recessed, to reconvene at
[4527]2-00 o' glock of the same day.) .
[4529]Ord
[4531]al
[4533]Bor
[4535],
[4537]a!
[4539]oe
[4540]O27 |
[4542]24
[4543]ez
[4544]|
[4546]| ‘TOP SECRET
[4548]MARO & PRUE
[4550]Hy 50955 DoclId: 32423509 Page 65
[4552]‘ Re rae
[4554]Hl o2a
[4555]' | |
[4556]mn APTERP COUN SESS LON (2:20 pom.)
[4557]2 ; : Mr. bAder. Mr. Chairman, before you. begin If might.
[4558]4 Lo
[4559]4 mention’ that tomorrow morning at either 9 or 10:00, depending
[4560]4 upon whether this subconmittee meets tomorrow morning, wé've
[4561]5 “arranged for representatives of the FRD, the Foreign nEsources
[4562]‘gs || Division of the Central Intelligence Agency, to. give us... 7
[4563]a _ testimony on some of these issues that have been raised, such'a
[4564]Q | the use of immigrants, some of the figures that they've given us 7
[4565]Q | and this question of penetration of American businesses.
[4566]oO | That will be scheduled, as I sav, at either 9 or 20:00}.
[4567]11 | depending on whether the subcommittee meets tomorrow mornings. |”
[4568]io We would like to have a Senator swear those witn ses.
[4569]1a : and then obviously any Senator who would like to attend is of
[4570]oy | invited. . |
[4571]15 | fe
[4572]Ke ee
[4573]17 - : -
[4574]18 | | a
[4575]: _ | “
[4576]Loe an
[4578]23 | /
[4579]“pa | - | . oo . a oe
[4580]25 | : oe . |
[4581]| «TOP SECRET |
[4582]Ki a WATID & TAUL |
[4584]BW 50955 Docld:32423503 Page 66—
[4586]aah 64 ! wa 8 RBS me Rea ; 53
[4588]1:
[4589]a Senator Huddleston. My thinking now is that we. would
[4591]5S ii meet probably at 10:00.
[4593]Mr. Bader. We could certainly do it in an hour's time...
[4595]4 |
[4597]5 Senator Huddleston. 1 would like to attend that session. 7
[4598]6 Mr; Bader. So we'll start at 9:00 promptly:
[4600]yd Senator Huddleston. Senator Mathias had the suggestion |
[4602]& | that in view of the fact thet there is spacific legislation
[4604]|
[4605]if . . . :
[4606]a | relating to that subject and that's in the Immiaration Act <-
[4608]Lo Mr: Bader. I've asked them to he prepared to sodak to |
[4609]il | their interpretation of the provisions and restrictions i
[4611]2 | Immigration Act. | . oe os | Sel.
[4612]Vz | Senator Huddleston. But -our recommendation is that | |
[4614]wae we would review.the act and the practices.
[4615]5 Mr; Bader. If we have this room, as I hone we do, we
[4617]16 || would take the testimony right here and if need be, move it. j:.fe.
[4619]L? || to another room.
[4621]1s - Senator Mathias. In the event that I should not ba
[4623]20 || at this thina pretty closely.
[4625]As Senator Huddleston said earlier, you-don’t recruit
[4629]|
[4631]H
[4633]i
[4634]i¢ | able to be hete, and I hone Twill, T think we ougtt to look ;
[4635]29 || these people just out of the blue unless there's some reason © |
[4636]en | for them to sign tip, and T doen’b think we want to he toa |
[4638]es | aritical of reeruiting rrarccturees: to revert to the ohrase that
[4640]en. we used vesterday, ther avo sonsenting adults. , |
[4641]TO? SECRET
[4642]i . Ta cety ae PAUL . . , |
[4644]HW 50955 Docld: 32423509 Page 67
[4646]cah G4
[4648]i | | GX Seid | 64.
[4650]'I think what we have to look at is the deqree of coercio
[4652]which ig. implied here, the kind of bind that you get these
[4654]wherever they came from. and what sort of a crack do you put
[4656]them in and that not only goes to the humanitarian aspect of it,
[4658]“hut to questions over liability and the rest.
[4663]i
[4664]i
[4665]a people in where they realiv are perhans. totally alienated from
[4666]i
[4671]Senator Huddleston. 1 think they could be very helpful
[4672]8 | to us.
[4674]3 Mr. Rader. Senator. € could also try to adjust the time |
[4676]Senator Mathias. It could he Kefore or after our afternoon
[4678]feed
[4681]meeting, if that would be mare in your reach. i
[4683]Senator Mathias. Well, I haven't gotten my , walking C
[4685]for the morning y2t.
[4687]Mr. inderfurth. Tt's interesting in this raspect to th
[4689]about Lee Harvey Oswald, ahout his‘being over there, and. we're
[4691]nog
[4693]talking about immigrants coming here and defectors and so on.
[4695]ned
[4697]TE
[4699]Top SECRET
[4701]WARD & PAUL
[4703]19 Senator Mathias: It's the other side of the coin.
[4705]18 | Senator Huddleston. There's a question of how many ed
[4706]12 we ought to close. | i:
[4707], : Senator Mathias. Mr. chairman, I reqret to raise a
[4709]_ rurther complication. There's a meeting that T had for 6100"
[4711]29 | that's now heen postponed ro 6:39, So it would probably mean -
[4713]2 | : nee .
[4714]a3 i f can't aat here untii 7:39, |
[4715]DA Senator Hutteston, Navhe 7:30 vould be a verter time: |
[4716]ont Aan & Know. Thase pearls need to get out and qet sora fresh |
[4718]|
[4720]; Ly .
[4721]HW 40955) Docid:32423509 Page 68
[4723]ats “af sme WE HE
[4725]'air too, I vould expect.
[4727]'
[4728]|
[4729]|
[4730]2 Before we get into the substance here, I understand that
[4731]© our: new mandate is if possible to. complete ours no. later ‘than:
[4732]‘1 i eriday. So we're going to trv to shoot for tomorrow.
[4733]5 | What the “Chairman would like to do vould be for us te
[4734]6 | have our report in some kind of form that we can give to the
[4735]? Full Committee by Friday eo that they can review it over the.
[4736]5S i weekend and the Full Committee can start on it on Monday.
[4737]a Noy how do you think vou would stand.on that proposition?
[4738]10 Mr. pader thia ia the principle findings, conclusions |
[4739]“ALY ana recommendations? | po.
[4740]12 Senator Huddlesten, vag, which would mean that whd
[4741]13 i changes we are making here in nhraseoloay and go forth. should if
[4742]Ld be incorporated and retyped. | '
[4743]is | We have that problem..
[4744]i8 | Mr. Aaron. I would think that that's do-able. I mean
[4745]wy | it remains to be seen how extensively you would want t9 ey
[4746]13 debate some issues and the extent to which you will simply want |
[4747]19 | to bracket. them or identify them and have the orinciral |
[4749]1
[4751]“Ft I would think that that's feasible.
[4755]Senator Huddleston..Ta delay it past Fridav, of course,
[4757]wotild delay the time that the Phil committees could consider it
[4759]aaeets) discussion take place in the Full Committae.—
[4760]| hecause they need te heve it-in their hands at least cne day.
[4762]94 || Tt might ao fast in the Fuld Comm thee. TI. have no wav of
[4764]| Oo TOP SECRET
[4766]TARO & PAUL
[4768]‘HW 50955 Docld: 324273509 Page 69
[4770]ae Ter ee 8S
[4772]knowing.
[4773]2 Mr. Kirbow. Bill. because you and I both know Senator .
[4775]3 " Nathias's previous intentions statéd in. the letter to. the”
[4777]4 Chairman, was there somewhere a discussion about releasing
[4779]5 | this piecemeal ahead of time that might. that should ao on the
[4780]a) ! record here? . . .
[4781]7] | Mr. Miller. If it's aqreeable to the Subcommittee.to
[4782]a | set it dona by the weekend. he nroposes that thev take up
[4784]“in Full Cgmmittee the findines and recommendations of the
[4786]|
[4787]o |
[4788]|
[4789]1.6 I eoretan qroun.
[4790]Wy The domestic group is much further behind, so they
[4792]12) would not take it up until about the 24th,
[4794]13 The question of whether to release any information or
[4796]‘44 | any.renort that may be decided by the Committee oe
[4798]ay
[4799]|
[4800]i
[4801]|
[4803]18 Senator Huddleston. We'll let the Full Committee decide
[4804]16) that when they get the renort; | - eee
[4805]cy | : Now where ara we then on the report part?
[4807]13 _ Mr; eon We hava, we're in an extensive program of. nF
[4808]49 trying Eo get the Agency's Laws as to what information ig
[4810]gources and methods and what-is classified for othar reasons
[4812]and what have vou.
[4816]a
[4817], = DQ «
[4819]a9 - We have, T believe. all but four papers have heen read’:
[4821]a3 1 by the Agency in one form or another and are in the process |
[4823]py Of going . ouk there. whe four that are not are the Congreso
[4824]os | oversicht and the CIA hadget paner, although the budaet section
[4825]54 : t '
[4826]| . : WARE PAUL a
[4828]HW 50955 Docld:32423509- Page 70
[4830]Lr Ler @ oi
[4834]|
[4835]|
[4837]tog the defense report, which is the substance of that, has been.
[4839]e | aiscuesed at great Length ° vith the ‘Defense Departinent and they
[4840]| are happy. with it except -- welt, happy with it may’ be an
[4842]4 exaggeration but they have no prohlems with it except for the
[4844]a | numbers and the Committee itself will have to steo up to the
[4846]6 / suesticn of whether the iarze number or any subsets of numbers
[4848]4 will be released.
[4850]B | The internal oversiatt. the Office of General Counsel
[4852]a and Inspector General has not heen.
[4854]10} Is that right? |
[4856]VL | Me Maxwell. what's right. No material that was Yea
[4858]19 il there. was derived from classified material. : 2 —
[4860]1% Mr. Aaron. So that showldn' t be a problem. “The
[4862]ta general papers on covert ac etion and espionage hav2 nut been
[4864]45 aiven to them. They are just being completed by the ataft
[4866]16 essentially. ‘All the others, and the chemical and biological ~
[4868]i7 | one has not been shared with them.
[4870]18 / Now beyond that all the others, I believe, have now
[4872]gone ott to the Agency in one form or another. The only one
[4874]is the Denartment of State*s paper and the Departmen =
[4876]e
[4878]le
[4879]ahead on.
[4882]nO that seems to be approved, or at least we've gotten thea go- ~
[4883]| requested one deletion, which we are prepared to make.
[4885]* |
[4886]25 } Serator Huddleston. All right, then, As I understand
[4887]aa | it. the Chairman. if we are able to set ours to him so the
[4888]og | Pull Committee can hoctn on findings and caconmendations on
[4889]TOP SECRET
[4890]“WADE ® PAUL
[4892]HW 50955 Docld: 32423509 Page Ti
[4894]Mh i , au. 4 PRT Ne AE HS 4
[4896]| ' Monday or Tuesday, even. his haope is that during the course
[4898]. -_
[4899]2 of ‘the next week the Full Committee will’ finish that.
[4901]ra In the meantime, of course, we can still be working’ on‘
[4903]4 these reports looking toward: hopefully, if we could have those
[4905]5 i by the end of next week, too, then the Full Committee would
[4907]5
[4909]be in a position of at least having the material available to. |
[4911]Net
[4912]n
[4914]them 1f we decided to release everything at one time or if
[4916]That's about as much as we can hope for.
[4918]|
[4920]|
[4922]! . oo,
[4923]B | we needed a few more davs to refine the reports themselves.
[4925]|
[4927]i
[4929]|
[4931]Mr, Aaron. Okay; T think that to be realistic about the
[4933]11 |) longer material., it is a lct longer and I think to be at
[4935]i
[4937]Le proud ° of the material we will want to be sure that |
[4938]done through it. | | |
[4940]| So therefore t think the ena of next week is probably -
[4941]not realistic of having it in shape for the Full Committee to
[4943]On the other hand, T think that before the and of the |)
[4945]month it would be possible to have a product. unless we run
[4947]|
[4949]1¢ | bless it
[4951]|
[4953]into some enormous snaq.
[4955]Senator Mathias. But that does not centemplate the
[4957]‘axecutive review.
[4961]My. Aaron. No, T'n sorry. that is including executive
[4964]9% | review.
[4965]ye .
[4966]an Mr, Miller per if Joes not contemplate printing.
[4967]DA | a :
[4968]eB, oo ; Mr. Aaron. That a sarreack,
[4970]: T2P SECRET
[4972]HW 50955 DociId:32423509 Page 7f2
[4974]ae Re
[4978]Mr. diGenova. Yestarday, Mr, Bolton indicated to me
[4980]2 | when I was there that there was no way that they could complete
[4981]5 sources and methods review by the 15th of March, and I said
[4983]4 | 1 didn't see how they could either, since they had just really
[4985]bequn. having access a weak or so ago or whatever it was.
[4987]6
[4988]7 || considering the rewrites’ and a chance to look at the rewrites--
[4989]8 Senator Mathias. T have been independently advised of .
[4991]3 | the same thing, that the end of the month is mavhe a little
[4993]10 -ootimistic:
[4995]1 Mr, Miller. Senator Church just talked to Directo Bush oe
[4997]and I talked to Mitch Regovin just prior and worked out am
[4999]|
[5000]1s arrangement on the question of clearances of sensitive material |
[5001]14! and the Chairman told Mr. Bush that he will take whatever time
[5002]is 1 is required. he asked for exneditious effort on their part.
[5003]in || Mr. Bush said that he would urge his troops onward, and he
[5005]i7 || resoqnized that there had been snags and difficulties. The |
[5007]Q | Chairman said that he was not going to press bevond the
[5009]1a | capability of either side. He wants to. de the proper job
[5011]ah
[5012]ste.
[5014]. ° and whatever time is required,
[5015]He said that he honed that we could cooperate and work
[5019]‘oo | At nut 80 that we could firish by the end of the month. | And
[5020]| My. Bush said that he would make every effort te do that,
[5021]. So that seeris amicahin hetween the Chairman and the -
[5023]DE Nirector.
[5025]‘TOP SECRET
[5027]WATTK & TAUL :
[5029]And they seem to think that the end of the month is probably,:
[5030]|
[5031]|
[5033]i
[5034]|
[5035]|
[5036]|
[5037]|
[5038]|
[5039]|
[5042]HW 50955 Docld: 32493509 Page 73
[5044]i sik? SRORBY | 19
[5046]wo _ Then the question srnsa about the deadline on the 15th
[5047]a and the-Chairman is going to Ask that this deadline be set: |
[5049]aside because of the problems of not. heing able to finish |
[5051]3
[5052]a | s ecurity and those other matters.
[5053]5 i , So he is taking steps to do that now.
[5055]6 | “Senator Huddleston. Rut I think it's still encumbent
[5056]a ! onus to make a special effort to move. as fast as we can, and -|"
[5057]a we plan to co ahead tonight.
[5059]a Okay, now we get back.
[5061]ane) | Mr. naron. Wa're on page 37 -and the procedure wa! re: |
[5062]iil trvind to follow to. "expedite things ig to look vecttcutaedp |
[5063]to at the recommendations and at the bracketed ‘language. |
[5065]Ln . Now recommendation 29 ~~
[5067]14 4 | Senator Huddleston. Refore we aet to 20, there's a .
[5069]LS problem in wording. "The last paragraoh before 20, the
[5071]LA | Committee also found that. there's no established inter-Agency. :
[5072]i7 | mechanisms for astablishina the bona fides of defectors.
[5074]18 ! You've used established twice there. |
[5076]19 | Mr. Aaron. I think we san take the first one out. |
[5077]an | . MBi Culbreth. ‘ve nicht say, David, that the staff hopes |
[5079]ee lies
[5081]bi | to take a teal editorial ehot at this before it gets onblished,
[5082]go y anyway, and mavhe aven bef-re it gets to evervbody next week, ©
[5084]5% || and wa would hapa that ve can gek a lot of these thinde,
[5086]24 | Aut certainty. anv thak vou see that you want us to
[5089]on | he sure that we aat to. noint out,
[5091]Bb
[5093]TOP SECRET
[5095]WARD & PAUL
[5097]AW 450955 Docld:32423509° Page 74
[5099]aah 7}
[5101]“a.
[5103]5
[5105]|
[5106]|
[5107]|
[5109]ae Pe . Tar ue ia @
[5110]721
[5112]Mr. Kirbow. Mr. Chairman, on that marticular thing, at
[5114]the staff level I had bracketed that entire paragraph hecause.
[5116]| I'm not sure what we're trvind to accomplish by what you say
[5118]there.
[5119]‘This is probably the most difficult task that faces
[5121]a counter-intelligence organization any place in the world
[5122]is to establish whether or not a defector. that you have just
[5123]picked up is a double agent or not. |
[5125]I iistened to the man who has done this all his adult
[5126]life at the Agency, Mr: Analeton, and he never made it clear
[5127]just how vou ever are sure that you have a bona fide, 2 -
[5129]And then his follow-on said basically the same things.
[5130]What ao we intend to do with this findina? Do we intend then.
[5132]to leqislate something? What are we qoing to do with it?
[5134]Mr. Aaron. The finding goes to the recommendation later
[5135]that there be essentially for othar purposes. But a
[5137]stibcommittee of the National Security Council on the subject”
[5139]of counter-intelLigence which. would look at other matters and
[5141]we will- get to that ih a memant. but among its tasks is that
[5143]tt would he a forum in which ‘differences of opinion as to the
[5144]bona” Ptmes of a defector could be discussed and potentially
[5145]reconciled,
[5147]Mr. Angleton testified and snoke at lenoth in other
[5149]really is no way that there's a difference between the FBI. and
[5151]Tope SECRET
[5153]|
[5154]forums with us about the fnek that when -- that at present shee
[5155]MANO & PAUL |
[5157]HW. 50955 Bocld: 32423509 Page 75
[5159]. ee NS
[5161]co
[5163]mn
[5165]B
[5167]HW 50955 Docld:324235093 Page 76.
[5169]bs ,
[5171]‘OTA as to the hona fides cf a defector and there's no way for
[5173]the government to come to a decision about it.
[5174]And this really makes that point and leads to the furthe
[5176]ooint that we believe thare ought to be some mechanism whereby
[5178]‘some decision can be reached. Now people may still have.
[5180]reservations, as. they do about this particular individual we
[5181]refer to here. But in the end one has to make a decision and
[5183]simolv keeving him in a jail some place is nrohably not a
[5185]useful way, to proceed, and in fact, this is the kind of
[5186]recommendation that comes from Mr, Angleton and seems to be
[5188]supvorted by other neople. evan his successor at the Agen
[5189]: . i
[5191]Mr. Kirbow. Do we-have any place in our findings ¢
[5192]discusses the so-called. this single case of some sort here?
[5193]Is there some evidence?
[5195]Mr. Aaron. Yas.
[5197]Mr. Kirbow. re's soing to be in the report when somebod
[5198]alse reads this? They' i be able to go some place else and.
[5200]sée what vou're talking about?
[5204]Mr. Aaron. That's correct. It will be in, I believe dttis
[5206]in the paper on counter-intelliaence. It's also addressed
[5207]n the Pockefeller Commission report.
[5209]e
[5211]Now as the first recommendation. I think that we have.
[5213]Asread at the ataft level to baka out. the brackets and cut a
[5215]Footnote which would make th clear that while the nrimarv
[5217]mission. of the CLA would ha to caltect denied or rrotacted foreign
[5219]TOP SECRET
[5221]WARD f& TAU
[5225]20
[5227]a a
[5229]no
[5230]eyes
[5232]HW 50955 Daocld:324293509 Page 77
[5234]|
[5236]|
[5237]|
[5239]|
[5240]|
[5241]|
[5243]I ata to produce national intelligence. That kind of thing. Thal
[5245]am ae ano — ae Be Q a
[5247]intelliaaence information, that .this would nok, you knatw. that
[5248]at the same time the Agency could be directed to perform such:
[5249]other collection tasks as directed by the NSC.
[5251]In other words, the noint is that certainly they do
[5252]dome overt collection. Por axannle, foreign broadcast informati
[5253]service is done by them as a service and so forth. But at. thes.
[5254]same time the noint of aivina the CIA a charter is to give” ie
[5255]a charter for its primary mission and as sat forth NSCIb 5 .
[5256]fer caxamole, that mission ia to conduct esnionace. |
[5258]Senator Mathias. What ahout the rele of statistical .
[5260]analysis? That kind of analvsis that can be deduced from
[5262]study of voluminous quantity of economic information much
[5264]of which is public?
[5266]I'll qo back to the ball bearings. the bali bearing
[5268]factory.
[5269]Mr. Aaron. ‘Well, this qoes to the point really of... .
[5270]tha organization of this section. There's a separate, section.
[5272]on the production of intel Lidgance which would authorize the:
[5274]Central Intelligence Agency as the producer of national
[5276]intelligence must be the recindent of all intelligence flowing-
[5280]into our overall national intelligence effort, and that
[5282]intellicerce includes orreck intelligence as collected from
[5286]the Treadury Denartment. feem Commerce from Labor attaches
[5288]TOP SECRET
[5290]7
[5291]abroad. the full geane of infermavion cellectine, most of “4
[5292]VT Re FAUL, |
[5294]i
[5295]I
[5296]i
[5297]4
[5300]o
[5302]7
[5305]16.
[5307]bn
[5310]N
[5311]aw]
[5313]|
[5315]HW 50955 Docld:32493509 Page 78
[5317]4
[5318]|
[5320]‘and that, while it was once in the State Department, was
[5322]ae Cer ee | a ia
[5324]is not secret or clandestina and. is ‘available to the CIA and it
[5325]would be their job to comrile it.
[5326]And that does not exclude other functions. For example,
[5328]the analytical function is not mentioned here. This is simply
[5330]to dive it the collection function and that is because the
[5332]paper is simply organized in that fashion. It doesn't try to.
[5334]step up to the whole charter, every aspect of it. We just try.
[5335]to break it down.
[5337]Mr., Mauwell. Should there be a kind of overt foreign
[5338]intelligence which the NSC with the mechanism for allocating
[5340]priorities within the intelligence community — should fhe.
[5342]done by the CIA?
[5344]It could under the formulation now do that.
[5345]Mr. Aaron. That's why for examole there's one thing tha
[5346]they do that's overt. Even their clandestine people abroad
[5348]do an overt collection’ job and that is biographic information |
[5350]transferred to the CIA hecauge they have a lot of clandestine
[5352]bioaraphic information and as a matter of centralizing and
[5354]dfficiency the decision vas made to move it over there.
[5356]That kind of thing would not he. precluded and would stil
[5358]exist.
[5359]Now it goes on to state that in doing this we would also
[5361]reconmend authorizing the CIN to carry out the recruitment of
[5363]adents within the Unite! States fer this purpose. And it goes
[5365]TOP SECRET
[5367]WARD M% FAUL -
[5369]cpa ES
[5373]TA
[5375]LO
[5377]Ye
[5379]LO.
[5381]ND
[5382]O°
[5384]HW 50955 Doecld:32423509 Page 78
[5386]i
[5389].
[5390]|
[5391]|
[5393]|
[5394]'
[5395]i
[5397]fact not infringing on Constitutienal rights or attempting to
[5399]AO RAL ed %
[5401]further to say that there would he an annual review of this
[5402]activity by the Senate oversight committee and by the
[5403]counter-intelligence committee which we proposed be established
[5404]and has been. agreed here as a recommendation of the Natdonal
[5406]Security Council.
[5408]Now the further sentence that is in brackets calls upon -
[5410]the Attorney General to certify to the President and to’
[5411]the oversiaht committee that these actions ara being tsken in
[5412]a manner that does not violate the Constitutional rights of
[5413]American Gitizens or any other provision of law.
[5415]Trving to keep track of the domestic intelligence -
[5417]recommendations is a little bit like painting a moving tratn,
[5418]but this tends to coincide with their recommendation, and the
[5419]purpose of this is obviously to place a little tighter
[5421]restriction and more authority in the hands of the Attorney :
[5423]General to ensure that these domestic espionage-related actions, |
[5425]that are conducted on a covert or clandestine basis ara in-
[5427]break the law in any way.
[5429]Mr. Kirbow. You're really talking about recruitments
[5433]now. You're not talking about other clandestine and dnovert
[5435]activities and operations? |
[5436]Mr, Aaron. Thatis corract., It's not, for example, if
[5438]vou ware to establish a basa in Florida for tha vurvoges of
[5440]harassing Cuban shipnirs. That would not, come up here.
[5442]TOP SECRET
[5444]WARD & CAUL
[5446]|
[5447]7
[5448]|
[5449]|
[5450]|
[5452]a
[5454]am th Woo we ade e rp
[5456]Mr. Kirbow. And tha bracketed information, Mr. Chairman,
[5458]was that I didn't feel at the time we considered this and I
[5460]asked that it be bracketed, that the Attorney General who vis ..
[5462]never going to operate in this area alone, he is not going.
[5464]and if he's going to do that with people in the Department of |
[5468]|
[5469]i
[5471]t
[5472]|
[5473]5 to make these decisions without staff support of some deseripti: n,
[5474]‘Justice, “which. is where he gets the staff, the concern of. the | ®
[5476]8 people in the Agency about lroadening even within their own
[5478]Qo ageney these people that know about the agent procurements and
[5480]19 || where they are and whom they are is of vital concefn, Itia |
[5481]| probably one of the most carefully guarded secrets. Evan’ 7 shel
[5482]12 yp extent that Mr. Colby testified befor this Committee sina
[5484]13 oath. he said, I don't want -to know the names of +he agents
[5486]|
[5487]14 bacause someone may want to decide some day to wrassie it |
[5488]. i.
[5489]jut of me. ep _ “|
[5492]on:
[5494]‘I don' t know what the Attorney General certifying here |
[5496]is || does for you if.” on the | “gana subcommittee you | have the Der,
[5497]who is the President! s principal man, you have the secretaries.
[5498]i
[5500]49 | of state and all these other teople apparently at the beck and
[5501]a9 || call in intelligence matters to put the Attorney General and
[5503]D1 his staff into the aqent. procurerant business.
[5505]29 Senator Hart. Not in the agent procurement business...
[5506]0% , Mr. Kirhow, I mean with knowledge vf agent. procurement.
[5507]24 ~ Senator Hart, Well. the Attorney General is in the
[5509]business cf unholding and Aefending the laws of this country
[5511]i FOR SEC -RET
[5513]i : . WAHT & FAUL
[5515]HW 50955 DocId: 32423509, Page 60
[5518]eee ‘ a ee Toor oo a "7
[5520]i ot and he can't do that if hs doesn't know when one of the agené¢ies
[5521]2 of the Federal government might be breaking them,
[5523]Bd It's a chicken and eaq situation.
[5525]4 | Oe Mr. Kirbow. You think he should approve the policies or
[5527]5 | the actual procurement of the agent.
[5529]“Senator Hart. The procedures. Nothing in here. I mean
[5531]2 ll we have araued this ‘thing for 13 months, there's nothing here
[5533]8 | that remiires the Agencev to barn over names of their sources |
[5534]9 or anything like that. |
[5535]10 The Attorney General doesn't need to know the names |
[5537]&,
[5539]Li | even more than Bill Colby does. or less. Just to find out $hat_
[5540]12 |) the procedures of violating the laws of this country, thatbs °
[5541]13 i all.
[5543]ia Ms. Culbreth, Could I raise another point, Mr.
[5545]15 || Chairman?
[5546]16 | ' It seems to me that one of the concerns that you have
[5548]17, | with having the Attorney General certify in this specific.
[5550]18 | case to the President and aiso to the oversidht’ committees”
[5551]| 4s a consistent problem that T-think runs throughout our
[5552]20 | racommendations.
[5553]' >
[5555]"On the one hand, we are describing for accountability.
[5557]within the Fxecutive Branch of the proner people, andon the
[5559]22
[5560]23, || other hand we are afraid that if we make him accountable, we're
[5561]e4 | giving him sn much nower that thev are going to disragard the >
[5563]og | constitutional obligations.
[5565]TOP SECRET
[5567]HW 50955 ‘DocId: 32423509 Page 61
[5569]Hom, ow a | To 3 ce)
[5571]In this specific situation, for example. we've already
[5572]2 | ‘aot the Attorney General being involved with the oversight
[5573]3 | responsibilities. When he takes office he already hag the - —
[5575]1. | obligation to see that all the laws and activities of agencies
[5579]are carried out as they're supvposed to be.
[5581]And in addition to ‘hat, we are provosing in another. -)::
[5583]part of our recommendations that the qeneral counsel and ‘the
[5585]insnector qeneral of the CIA he snbject to Senate confirmation —
[5589]sa that there ara Jots of other kinds of checks, and I would ~
[5591]just hope that as the Senaters consider additional proposals :
[5593]1, ] Like this. that we donit aet to the point that the Congres.
[5595]is hamstringing them inside the adencies on how they cairys. ;
[5597]ont the resnonsihilities:
[5599]well: this is a good idea and we should have this additional
[5600]cartification or. this addition. chain of reporting and making
[5602]= |
[5603]Each one of these standing by itself may look like, | [_
[5604]sure vou cet it authorized,
[5606]a
[5608]oy |
[5609]12 a But T have a fear after having looked through a food -
[5610]19 bit of this. that we are getting too many layers dn there, and
[5611]4) I would just urge a caution if there: are situations where we |
[5612]2 mavke have tt oretty well sovered until wa jet some opportunity
[5613]ao c see how this new set—un is aoina to work, whether we're)
[5614]ed | coing to have the kind of abuses wa had hefore: Mavhe we don't |
[5616]| ng | need enon of thear datails of Congress doing down into the 7
[5618]. |
[5620]on | agencies and saving hee Fie a9 about their day te day business
[5622]TO? SECRET
[5624]WARD & PAUL
[5626]HW 50955) Docld: 32423509 Page 62
[5628]ho soa bse ow 8G be Pi : au
[5630]1 Mr. diGenova. Mr. chairman, I. would add-in that regard
[5632]I
[5634]2 that with cegard to the sracific recommendation, this is
[5636]3 |} not going down into the Agencv. This is talking about the
[5638]A Attorney General who ig the head of an agency, first of all,
[5640]5
[5642]and the history has shown that other Attorneys General who
[5644]took thea same oath that this man did didn't do their jobs and _
[5646]thines,
[5648]9
[5650]|
[5651]2 | one of the reasons was that they didn't know about certain
[5652]|
[5653]| _
[5654]And, the nurpose of this vrovision is to make them aware
[5656]16 ll of what Is aoing on; to make leqal judgements and ‘to advise -
[5658]Lk i, the President. about the leaslity nF procedures attending ee
[5659]reernitment, of adents and other activities within the confines
[5661]of the United States.
[5663]The vrovision for confirming the inspector qenaral and
[5665]soneral, counsel is a wholly unrelated thing to this. although —
[5667]T don't see how that does that becatise he's going to.
[5668]be dealing with the MCcr.
[5670]146 hie doesn't. ao to the problem of reaching down into the Agency.
[5671]|
[5672]Senator Huddleston, Contrary to many of the things. that .
[5674]I>
[5676]20 wa do. we provide wavs to corract abuses once they ‘ve happened
[5678]a; | and it ~geams to me this is a nrincival wav of trving bo avoid
[5679]| abuses to start with:
[5680]a tf 7 ware on the overstaht committee T would nertaintly,
[5681]4 | and if wera oqekhing tha information that we contennlate the |
[5682]an | committée would get, than khat is ve vould know abot hase thinks
[5683]7 TOP SECRET
[5684]| ee : WATTO PAUL
[5686]HW 50955 DociId:32423509 Page 63
[5688]a a es veld) ths Syn OG Ha A -
[5690]Ns sould certainly want ko atta whether ‘or not the chief
[5692]2 jaw enforcement officer of the country thought they were
[5694]& || leqal or illegal, or if thera was a question about it.
[5696]‘A 7 Senator Mathias. 1 have a real question if I were
[5697]5 || Attorney General whether L would sign what we would call for
[5699]6 | here.
[5701]4
[5702]| Senator Huddleston. ‘he certification bothers mea [>
[5704]8 little bit.
[5706]j
[5708]Senator Mathias. Uow could I as Attorney General sav
[5710]9 |
[5712]. | |
[5713]yo that T certify that all the actions in thie area do not violate |
[5714]14 n
[5716]Constitutional rights of American citizens or anv other pygvisi
[5721]j
[5722]Le lof law?
[5723]| T have worked in a state law department and had to |
[5724]| aten some certifications much simpler than this. and i agonized |
[5725]i§ | over them. And this is so far beyond the personal knowledge
[5726]46 || of the Attorney General for nim to make any kind of certificatign,
[5728]iy it think we should get hin involved but I question whether it
[5730]198 | should be » certifying.
[5732]a Senator Huddleston. What's tha sten just under actually! —
[5733]eo tl certifvind? oo .
[5734]Pa | “fie could review. He anid certainly taisa a red flag: -
[5735]| a oe a
[5737]oo || Hid aath would require that he do something.
[5739]Senator Mathias; If vou force him to cartify, 2 think
[5741]|
[5742]{.
[5743]|
[5744]4 | voutra coaing to cet sich a wishv-vashy thing that to his
[5746]BD
[5748]knowledde and he wasonet advised to the contrary and stuff like
[5750]TOP SECRET
[5752]WATD A CRUEL
[5754]HW 50955 DociId:32423509 Page 64
[5756]mooi Qt
[5758]GO SeCRBT on
[5760]Mx. Aaron. I think that's a fair point. the question,
[5762]|
[5763]a | I auess, the case at which the certification would run most wou a
[5765]4 tadd to what already ‘isin the sentence preceeding it dalek!
[5766]& is review by the Committes which the Attorney General is
[5768]7 to chair, would be the casc in which the Attorney General, is
[5770]7 | aware ofa particular activity, {s aware that it-is illegal
[5772]a but just doesn't do anvthina. about it on the theory that it
[5774]Qa | is somehodv else's husiness. And hea doesn! t really, he doesn't ;
[5775]10 | have an obligation in this category of matters to render
[5777]11 | a judqment and bring it to the attention of the président a
[5779]1B
[5781]Senator Mathias. why don't we say this. that the
[5783]|
[5785]|
[5787]|
[5789]a
[5790]| the Congress.
[5792]i
[5794]13
[5795]14 Attorney General be required to advise the President and the
[5796]15 oversight committee that he is familiar with the orocedures
[5797]16 || established to. accomplish this purpose and that he is not
[5798]ma aware of anv’ violation of the Constitution or other: law in’ as
[5799]18 || the execution ‘of the action...
[5801]Genaral
[5802]Mr, Aaron. Wold it he vcogsible to just make it sort.
[5803]of a reporting funetion in which he said; and this is in the —
[5805]sama direction, tha Attorney General will he required to
[5807]a
[5808]2
[5810]fa
[5812]DA arivige the Presi ident and the oversight sommittee Pf he finds
[5814]25 that these options | are heing taken in a manner that violates?
[5816]foe SECRET
[5818]WWATIO Be AUR
[5821][
[5822]IT think you can lav that kind of a burden on the attorney .
[5823]|
[5824]|
[5825]i
[5826]“HW 50955 DocId:3 423509 Page 85. .
[5828]cage 2 : a a a ope 8, | : Un
[5830]i:
[5832]Senator Huddleston. Yes. First he must review them.
[5834]2 ie Mr. Aaron. And if he finds a violation, evidence of
[5836]3 | violation, then he must renort to the President and the
[5838]4 i oversight committee, Just place the responsibility there.
[5840]5 7 Senator Huddleston. If in his ovinion.
[5842]A I Senator Mathias: I wouldn't have any trouble with that.
[5843]7 Mr. Maxwell. I have one other point on that paragraph
[5845]® | and that is it provides for annual review by the counter-
[5847]o intelligence committee of the Mational Security Council.
[5848]10 | IT had understood we were dealing with the recruitment -
[5850]11} of agents for the United States foreion intelligence purpoges,.
[5851]12! and the question is whether the counter intelligence committee
[5852]13 which was to focus on resoliing issues involving the hona
[5854]ia || eXaes oF defactors, issues betwaen the FBI and CIA, would be.
[5855]is || the body which would have the appropriate knowledae in the
[5857]16 | positive intelligence value, or whether it should be assigned
[5859]iy || to a counter~intel Ligence function. —
[5861]It's simply a question of where the responsibility
[5863]18 |
[5864]ao | shouta be allocated for revieving those within the National
[5865]20 - Sacurity Council structures, and Towasn't clear whether the
[5866]21. oounter-intelliaence committee was the appropriate one,
[5867]22 | Mr. Aaron. Well, on that point,. tha purpose of setting
[5868]23 | up the counter-intelligence committee is esssntiilly to look
[5869]eq | at the domestic impact of one intelligence activities, tha
[5870]25 | primary ones being in the counter: intelligence Field but also
[5871]TOP SECRET
[5872]; NAO ® PAUL .
[5874]50955 Docld:32423509 Page 36
[5876]een pe et en a ne ce ren seg ee
[5878]is
[5879]HE . ° * . 2 "8
[5880]' 8 dn the vositive intelliecire Cleld.
[5881]; .
[5883]o In Fact, the resotution of the bona fides problen is
[5884]i a ouch smaller aspect of thosa two problems hu: the existence
[5885]‘ . .
[5886]i . .
[5887]1 p of the committee with seme hnewledge of the problem of
[5889]- | counter-intellicence maties th emesible to have a Forum at
[5891]the National Security Council leval to address it.
[5893]Mr, Kirbow. What abuse that has been broucht un in the
[5895]“ i mast either in the presse or wseisakions about A cunmmithee is
[5897]oF this aimed, at?
[5898]H
[5899]U ; ce OO .
[5900]vey i Yas there heen abuses that we have documented or
[5902]11 ft repartad that indicate that this has violated ‘the constieugional
[5903]3
[5905]wed oriahes of anybody. ineludtut these foretaners for this i
[5907]re nurnose?
[5909]We mush ha aimina this ak some thine other than just
[5910]hind of pulling if out ofthe ate?
[5912]Mr... Aaron. Lthink ie really comes more in the cateJory
[5913]of cuastionable practices and To owish - had the domestic
[5914]| fallow here but it's rently 2 emestion nF, for example. when:
[5916]you're in the nrocess of trying te recruit foreian assets
[5918]ag oar aven Amaricans En nerForn Forekqn intelligence missions
[5920]o, | where vou may heaqin collecting information on Mnericans for the
[5921]HO ouraases of assessina whether they are helnful to vou in
[5922]; mA , annroachine the particular pereen or Ghether the sould be
[5923]Oy} a dena pecess agent ov vhotiiew cea dobh conduck gome other
[5924]i
[5925]oy | ttinds of surveddlanes: ve sufeanard. of think.
[5926]rs] ‘* 4 \
[5928]I:
[5931]HW 50955 DoclId:32423509 Page 87
[5935]‘insuring that that. doean'h take rlace and 8. giving them help
[5937]that they can sav no, tiving them a place to go if pressures
[5939]apy . a a 1 4
[5940]t
[5941]fo Aonth think we're reali: necosearibe elosing the harn door
[5942]ho some enormous abuse. |
[5943]Mr. “Kirhow. I hac never heard of one in that area,
[5944]Mr. Aaron. I think by and Larce the FRD's quite clear.
[5946]in ther words, when we wenk throndgh the CHAOS and some of
[5947]these other programs that cere aiestionable. there were Some
[5948]cases in which some of the ranartina that took place as a resul
[5949]of the Foreian resources ais ision aot inks tha Cnos nak.
[5951]Mut the foreian resourcart diviaten mannaed te gkaw clear of
[5953]in qenaral and resisted in fark the effert on the part. of the
[5955]CHAOS team to ao ouk and actively recruit in this area on,
[5956]: I > 4
[5957]a cfandastine hasis. : i :
[5959]This is really sork of more in the catedary of Ae
[5961]such as the Huston Plan tyne cressures are brouqht to bear,
[5962]Senator Huddleston. Yall. there ars several places in
[5963]our renort findinas. nevaral ones indicated in the testimony
[5964]wa'ye taken that the atterndy Ceoneral enaht to review and |
[5965]recommend.
[5967]And Thin wondering wlethes or net rather than tuck spottinde |
[5969]« t
[5970]ai
[5972]it at these various nlaces. ehbether we couldn't make a ceneral
[5974]recempendakion., Wetve already tok the Attorney “arers) on the
[5976]Coammithea and that he reste. 8S nok allo mraction? bub sk least
[5978]whakevep mrackiees, bie sane dandcaqe wa were (uel bei ving abou
[5980]TIP SECRET
[5982]cy rn RL
[5984]HW 50955 Docld: 32423509 Page 88
[5986]|
[5987]i ; ; : .
[5988]' : For this varadqraph, that be review and that he advige the
[5989]i 7 . 2 . .
[5990]o | President and the committos if in his oninion any of these
[5991]2 niactices violate the Coistitutional: rights of American. citizen
[5992]Po ,
[5993]“) jo ar anv other laws. |. ; _
[5994]i
[5996]Me. Kirbow. «IT vould feel much better about this since |
[5998]6 it hasr't been an apparent abuse but to see that go in the
[6000]‘; seneral recommendation that all of the activities of the
[6001]intolliaanes enmmun ite ha, we ateued by him or he’ cxamined in
[6002]whatever havo vou think in ahentd he dona for that curnose.
[6004]But it wanda qoam that it outs then to a canernh preventive
[6005]tive mechanism instead af being here kind of put in asainst the
[6006]rary, which aq we say annarent ly has hoan daiud it cronerly”
[6007]all’ alona and unot in vielatinon of the law.
[6009]We den'bt appear to be accusing them of it here. although
[6011]the Janduag?® Mav not ha onthe to specific.
[6013]Lé Mr. Aaron, To miaht dust sav that there is a further
[6014]yo renommendation that invelyes the Attorney Ceneral on nage 40,
[6015]us | which is numher 27 deaalind with bhe same committes, a different
[6016]jo jt asneck of it.
[6017]Loop :
[6018]i}
[6019]Nhat this does is th elaherates with the racommendation
[6020]: ; ; a i
[6021]; oo, : : . ; a : i
[6022]o) | misher 17. which establishes tho counter intelliqence committee |
[6023]} a _ ;
[6024]no and it deals with the tro cides of theee activities, On the |
[6025]. on nne hand itts anine te vresdiesy mreoram for oombbics forcign |
[6026]A} ' . mS
[6027]; . a .
[6028]aq intelideenca anlleation) slendeshine within the United States:
[6029]qd. : a °
[6030]be fo amdioan the akhoer hand ffs eda fo reevier the counkor intelli dne
[6031]ma . oon |
[6032]TOP SECRET
[6033]; TO e Sm b
[6034]! ; EP PAUL . |
[6035]HW 50955 Docld:32423509 -Page 89 : 4
[6037]a perpen remain.
[6039]7 4+ ah ; 2
[6040]i] . .
[6041]i
[6042]i
[6044]1 eeepame of the CEA and oot that ere canduched fineide bhe
[6046]Si tmited States both from ths standmoint of. their legality.
[6047]7 , Now I think it's oessikle to consolicala those recommend:
[6048]= oe
[6049]Poh tions so that we don't sav ib teice, and T also think it's
[6051]nossihle to take aut anv imetie tion hak these programs were
[6052]AI nok neces sarily conducted oroneriv in the mast.
[6053]nl mut T would hate to fort of just have; and my rersonal
[6055]feeling is that To would kate to have ep oaenercl kind of thing
[6057]ail that the 4ttornev Generel ouvert bo de this becayns he onght
[6059]10 || te do thia already. (And whak metre tryine to de is make some
[6061]reanmnendations thak are more snecifically tarasted on the,
[6063]wot
[6066]LO | csubdeqkt matter that we have ond caiva him. in effect,
[6067]eneqifia charade,
[6068]Senator Huddleston. Sell. we are giving bam the
[6070]anecific charde of revinsine jb; which anrarentiv¢ he didn't
[6072]have before. “Now before when something ‘cane to his attention
[6074]he rertainiv had the resnans bibs fey to move on it if in his~
[6076]onintoan it was contrary to Constitutional ‘rights.
[6078]Mr. fharon. So fo s
[6080]me voulre discussing the Lask sentence!
[6081]still, .i8 that right. nok the review noint?-
[6083]Mr. Kirhow, ile orlutbhowllv assumes. as the cemnon law
[6086]' ‘ . . 7 a : ’ - 4
[6087]ool dacs, that all cavernmnent officials in an official, rosition
[6088]are performing their duties rroneriy.
[6089]Sil Senakoar Hi dbatten, too gank keg beyond that. thourh.
[6091]"a
[6094]Meo him ta dona whek trey ye Coline.
[6096]TOP SRC RET
[6098]ee eS
[6100]HW 50955: DocId: 32423509 Page 90°
[6102]HW 50955
[6106]“thease hera, aither the true covert onmerations
[6108]Mr. Virhow. And Con vert ray ire should peutee th ain
[6110]tind of a general recommerdobion, then you talk about all of
[6112]the intelligence functiers having any possibility of affecting -
[6114]I really would like ty see that kird of requirement
[6116]-ylaeed on the Attorney Ceancral as ‘a qeneral requirement instead
[6118]i
[6119]the laws of the United Staten) - . _ ; !
[6120]i
[6121]of trying to just nick ovt little snecifics unless we have an
[6122]abuse canneated with it.
[6123]. . |
[6125]New in the domestic tech farce they hava svecific
[6127]abuses and thev maka snecifie recommendations of corrective
[6129]action. hit that doesn't arnfear to be the case in either of
[6131]Me. Aaron. oD miaht.anke ‘a sudtesktion alony. those: lines
[6133]4uet din terms of simplifving some of Ehis. [ft mi ghee na -possiblp
[6135]“tn take the first vart at the review section here, follow it
[6137]with the recommendation on the top-of 27 saving the domestic
[6139]this review and then follow that-with a “inird recomiendation
[6141]i
[6142]t
[6143]|
[6144]t
[6145]counter -intelliaence activities Oe the CIA would be subject to |
[6146]|
[6147]that the Atkorney Ceneral would be retired to advise the |
[6149]President and the oversiaht committee if he found any lrreqular)
[6150]ities in either cone of these orocrams.
[6151]it dees what vou want toa da uhich is’ to force the Atberney
[6155]Ceperalta ahheantion boa
[6157]Me. Bayan, ALT riebt oo Gorkeb we torn Far a menent to
[6159]TOP SECRET
[6161]WARD FP BUL,
[6165]|
[6167]. . t
[6169]Senator Mathias. | think that’s more reasonable and .
[6171]|
[6177]i
[6179]'
[6181]i
[6183]te
[6185]Docla: 32423509, -Page 91
[6187]reel L an ae rs oo 4 Oy
[6188]4 , ;
[6189]‘|
[6190]| . oo . .
[6191]Sl mber 27 because tt har ov beacheted rortien thak we might |
[6192]“ } cansiderabl do away with.
[6193]That's page 40.
[6194]v H ; Thea bracketed portion dave that the NSC would apnrove |
[6195]il : . - ;
[6196]. © | all eounter-intelligence activities of the CIA in the United.
[6198]MS
[6200]States and it spells out a kind of procedure there. .
[6201]vo Now the net effect of this kindof procedure really is
[6203]oO | te egtahlisn. that the PRT dt: witheut cuestior. Lo mean the
[6205]i ;
[6206]> i mynatiaqal offact. is that the Rl is without question the |
[6208]connter-intelliqenca agency and vou've toh to get the President
[6210]te anvrove anvthing that the CFA is animes to do in this 74
[6212]Flak’, And that is really ib inside che United Stakes, Thatie
[6214]tha net effect of this rarcdrenh,
[6215]tad. Now my own versontl view of this paragraph is that it's
[6216]-4 |) probably nok neecassarvy. “e heve the NSU committees, Tt is
[6218]16 4 sunposed to resolve the question of-where the FBI. lets off
[6220]roy ard the CIA heains and it is an NSC committe that can report
[6222]TA te the Preaddent if thev haya a disagreement.
[6224]‘te. diGenava. Towenld aniv add thet I. smoke to John
[6226]aa | ELLIEF abouk this naracranh snd he aleo feels that it's
[6227]| unnecessary te do this. '> thinks thatcthis consolidation
[6229]ern weld be bad, first of all. aed it's unnecsasary second
[6231]Jiv. hMaijlar tet cman tie wkdan? |
[6233]TOPS SECRET
[6235]EO re PALL,
[6237]|
[6238]|
[6242]|
[6244]|
[6246]|
[6248]|
[6250]i
[6252]; |
[6253]rae _ Tim not sure — fecl ntranadly abont ft. |
[6255]i
[6257]|
[6261]|
[6265]|
[6267]HW 50955 Docld:32423509. Page 92—
[6269]Mr. diGenova. Aren ho veu talking abaut the consolidations
[6270]i
[6272]° | Mr. Aaron. No, peire talking. about the paragranh that
[6274]. i just precedes it. I'm serry. this is the pracieted portion...
[6276]3 T'lL read it out.
[6278]= “he CIA should reeesive NEC anprova |. of all mounter-
[6279]| | |
[6281]«© | intellijqence activities within: the United States, This approva!
[6283]ad
[6285]-ghould be aiven hy the Predident and be suvnorted by. the
[6287]° recommendation of thea NSC countear-intellidenes committes,
[6289]Attorney meneral and tha Slrector of the FRE. All sueh
[6291]oroieets: should be reported annually to the oversiqht committee
[6293]Mr. Maxwell. Io oweuld move that we just strike that
[6295]eaten ieee en anne ee Ramee te mamta arene Bienen te me ee
[6297]4
[6298]i .
[6299]POW AS linhbecessarv,
[6300]| ;
[6301]Ih Co, ; 7
[6302]wad. -  Senatar Muddleston. That's a vote. “Nelli be right
[6304]lay beck,
[6305]ve i (A brief recess wag kalken)
[6307]pe fe Senator Huddleston. Mall, it's 3-30. , Let's see if
[6309]iy i We can resolve anvthing.
[6311]i) . Mr. ‘Aaron. Now tha pent vacommendation. which is number
[6312]rg i 21 anes fo the establishment of a special cammittse of the
[6313]aan - TOS | j
[6315]an | Committees an Toreian Tntellisence, which santa raview buman
[6317]“ye m i . ; ;
[6319]ou fl intellidence collechinn prabiens.
[6320]en | _ This is an arga whos there has been. some effort
[6322]; J
[6323]ae || dngtitutiovatts to bry to deh a handle on tito but it te
[6325]4 sentialiwo snolit shout ea widely in the aqevernmen' at yeu
[6326]en | ran da Fb. You have a Chae Penarkment thakt predacoc an Learnt
[6327]we] aS T :
[6328]FOP Oke
[6329]. Vedm F PALE .
[6330]L
[6332]HW 40955 Docld:32423509 Page 93.
[6334]of a Bore oe, oan we Ph . . 7
[6336]in wolume the most materist and according to CIA analysts
[6338]' . oO
[6340]4 . _ . .
[6342]° | most of that information. 7 Jarae proportion-of that is
[6343]|
[6345]keved to their report an' vat ohviously a araat deal of
[6347]to clandestine collection is carried out by the CIA itself and
[6348]4 Wy 2 a = . . 20 ‘ e ee a ,
[6349]S i the military services account For a siqnificant amount. of
[6350]e collection, some of which is extremely imnortant in countries
[6351]' ae ; .
[6352]’ with militsorv governments.
[6353]| ; . : :
[6354]A | The issue then hecomes whether. thera chouldnit be a
[6355]\ .
[6356]2 | partienlay mechanism to deal vith it and the proposal here is.
[6358]vey to create a subscommittes of fhe CFL fer that purpose, or a
[6360]a
[6362]snecial enmmittee of thea crr. And the reason for that is to
[6364]State's desianee and representatives of tha Sacretary of State
[6366]and.it would e a committes exsentially of the ClA. the Department
[6368]|
[6370]1
[6372]pm | oak in the chair the Denartweark of Stvte or the Secretary of
[6373]| |
[6375]of State and. the Napartmant of Nefense trying to bring some
[6377]ne
[6379]focus into those proarams and making some choices and so forth.
[6380]I might have Bill Rader sneak to it. t think the
[6382]recammendation originates with him.
[6384]10 Mr. Bader. This recermandation iscnart of kwa hasic |
[6385]99 |) recommendations that deal with the ovesticn of human intelligente
[6386]oa | collection. - St |
[6388]. ‘ . : : - : . .
[6390]. e . 7 7 , te . } .
[6391]First 3s the question of the arnroval mechanism. As you/l
[6392]rales | eee whan ve cet into the lather nark of -bhe nancy, ane of
[6394]o4.j) these very stranc reermpendationgs that va chavea us the committee,
[6397]en lo oar da heins offered te tha committee as on moageibta receamendat thn
[6398]TOP SECRET | |
[6399]¥ a £) 4
[6400]C0) be ae ef ss |
[6401]| . . Seas eal ce ; i
[6403]HW 50955 DocTd:32423509 Page 94
[6405]a)
[6407]TaN
[6409]|
[6411]HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 95
[6413]‘deal with covert action projects.
[6415]af human collection he?
[6417]and bring it together under the chairmanshin of tha Becretary
[6419]cons © ee a
[6421]ie that human collection »untecta would. ao fo the operations
[6422]advisory group for approve). that is. for operational approval
[6423]As vou know from our testimony these kinds of projects
[6425]ao nat go to the 40 Committes tyre ordaniszations where they.
[6427]So on the one hand “etre hovina to. deal with the questio
[6428]of anerational approval. In this narticular subcommittee we
[6429]aq to the muegtion nt everas ! manacement and Aireation of
[6430]tasking, what should we be aging. chat shonled the inited states
[6431]he Anning in the human callection field? where should we be
[6432]in x number of years? Nhat should the principal objectives
[6434]And in this wav ma hone bo brine the divercity that now
[6436]exists in fhe community from the CIA to the mititery scrvices
[6438]of State who would helo nrovide this kind of overall direction
[6439]and management quidance.
[6441]Tt is not ancimportant elshoration of the committee on
[6443]“4
[6444]. . 1
[6445]Foreian intelliaence. Tt should be thare in any avenk because
[6446]“it's a manadement problem. “his dives it Focus, this cives
[6447]the Secratary of State the chairmanshin of. a committes and T
[6448]think nromerly so. that devls with this larder nroblem of
[6449]whither honan intellictnes collection.
[6450]Ste Mawwnd). thie apetenr here whether Lbs cheived |
[6451]hyo g renresentativa of tha Seorebervy of Shake and the uch and |
[6453]i
[6455]TOR SECRET
[6457]WATER OAR UE
[6459]Wa 8 ae leg Bra
[6461]92
[6463]-I don't know what the erotocol is but is it likely that
[6465]Secrebary of Defense arn ronectod to abtem! or whathear they're |
[6467]i
[6469]i
[6470]f
[6471]i
[6472]7 all sunposed to be desiqnest.
[6473]|
[6476]the Secretary ‘of Defense would attend if: it, were a desiqnee. |.
[6478]t
[6480]| ; .
[6481]5 Ht of the Secretary of Stake? : : , |
[6482]. oe
[6483]a | “Mr. Miller. Sometinas. anre.
[6485]i :
[6486]ral Mr. Bader. They certainly did on. these other committees.
[6487]8 Bub whak would vou pronose? [-
[6489]a oo . |
[6490]2 | Mr, diGenova. The laranade is a Little unclear. |
[6491]Tal Mr. Bader. Perhans it should say that the Secretary of
[6493]VW State is chairman and he nrerimably then could desiqnate whomevdr
[6495]' . . I
[6496]po | he noleased. ne |
[6497]| 7 |
[6498]VR Mr. Kirhow. As a mather of practicalitv. if the |
[6499]i . a . : . : }
[6500]14 i Seeretarv of State doesn't shear ur and the Seerebiry of |
[6501]. Nefenge ig there. who's aning to chair the meeting? -
[6502]7 — | —— |
[6503]16 | Mr. Aaron, As amatter of vracticality if the Secretary
[6504]y> | of State doesn't show un, the Secretary of Defense won't be |
[6505]| ;
[6506]Ww | there,
[6508]va | Me. Kirbow. And we cliaresa down because heals naver.
[6509]an | adaing to ao to this kind ef meeting where he takes um khe >
[6510]ny day to day onerations,-
[6511]‘90 Aren't von orealles tolking here. don't von leave the
[6512]a3 | Vanquade eo vadue that vay frill ote imply that vhvb vou vant it
[6514]e4 da. vauleuw, of he peldadan sad once the des to daw. ua need one moi
[6516]br | aden in Ama@terdam and bea mona dr Rerunce la?
[6517]rey * 7,
[6518]TOP Si a
[6519]: WA frau | _
[6521]HW 50955 Doold:32423509:. Page 96
[6523]‘ : z 3 Ar Lage Set 4% e Q ; 3
[6527]it
[6531]" . : . . . . :
[6532]Poe Mr. Baron. Thatcis ast esbot owe wank ba ‘convey and so
[6534]“ vow are correct.
[6536]My, Kirbow. They shovld review the .rolicies and goals
[6538]and requirements. really.
[6540]ofp Mr. AiGenova. low atouk noliey at the end of the first
[6542]7 Mr. Aaron. Human intelligence collection volicv.
[6544]Ganator Huddleston. nl oliminake th park about size.
[6546]a
[6548]6h |) sentence? | a, ,
[6550]Mr, Rader. Paviei: andl rake recommendations with regard |-
[6552]bo nalicies and. nriorities. and then chene’s a misnrint here.
[6553]‘don't need American (15. clandestine.
[6555]Mr, irbew. Dewn bhrondh the -erd, the-teo words. human
[6556]eallection hofere the last. cankence, vet sre inke ind of a
[6557]a! arent deal of detail ehorvkt whe k they're surposed LO consider. a
[6559]wherese jf vau said they theould considar the rolicies of human
[6561]ell intellicence. human collection and the trade-offs between
[6563]oa eavert and overt collection snd the sorts of things vou have
[6565]hreaucht to.a-committeer. a coneideration of this nreblem which
[6567]thay have never taken before.
[6569]fr. Bader. JT thinul os comld are the word policy here
[6571]D0)
[6572]am and policies and we will undertlina that. . :
[6573], .
[6575]ne | ‘Recemmend the cateal tichreent of a snecial committee of
[6577]cee too bhe OTT be rewdew ald Foerstenm teunan intbeliteeanc collection
[6583]taocthe rrdorthiog art stot os mal fi
[6585]JOP SECRET.
[6587]Pro. PRU
[6590]|
[6591]i
[6593]HW 50955 DocTd:32493509' Page 97
[6595]anerations and choices betecen ovrerk and clandestine heman
[6597]collection. - _ oo
[6598]Mr, Kirbow., And vr. chairman, withovt ‘oing back and’
[6599]|
[6601]helaboring one of the other recommendations, I think ‘that the
[6603]‘a task to a committee to do a creat deal more detail because.
[6604]even on this domestic counter intelligence activities my
[6606]earlier recommendation was (oat by statuke the nolicies governing
[6608]|
[6609]i
[6610]5 | statt should do that in each inetance vhara we mav have given
[6611]|
[6612]|
[6613]i
[6614]|
[6615]|
[6617]You: don't wank them te consider tha dav to day operation
[6619]LT clontt believe.
[6621]a
[6623]Mr. Aaron. But 1 dao think tha* we shouldn't lose sight
[6625]in fl af tha fact that we are intereshad particularly iv the latter |
[6627]14] ease and I think in this case that you're interested tn the
[6628]. . , . . ;
[6629]‘on i proaram,
[6630], . . . i
[6631]; - ; 7
[6632]rea Tomean you just don'h vant to say it will be the policy |
[6633]oan 1 nf the.u.S. to do some or it would be the policy ~- I mean
[6634]1 | vou really want to have an ennertunity in @ management sense to
[6635]\ ; _ a : 2
[6636]ia i) leak at the overall nroqram ~~ is the nroedram achiavinn what
[6637]ay | it's supposed to achieve, is the scale of the proqram here |
[6638]on ae onposed to there in the right halance to refleck our
[6639]i oe | . |
[6640]aD | crtorities? . . . ;
[6641]nn | “. Tn other words oT think that -~
[6642]oy Ha Miljer Teia nok a rubher tarp, youtre caving.
[6643]ne |
[6644]On My. Anron, Tha ta riehb ard dh dent duet ee coal with
[6645]‘ . , . , os j
[6646]oer ge se a] Be . : :
[6647]OP SECRET ode
[6648]: (
[6650]SU ARN |
[6652]HW 50955 . DocId: 32423509 ° Page 98
[6654]f
[6655]7
[6657]So seam on paner. Lt tries &) cet ak the nrehlem af what are the
[6658]| : a ; oo
[6659]2 i wmeograms and are they dotursr thetr job?
[6660]i oO
[6662]“ / Mr diGenova. Who Aq they make the recommendations to?-
[6664]“phe CFI?
[6666]oo
[6668]Mr. Aaron. Yes. or tha Prasidenk.
[6670]Mr. Maxwell. One rveark in connection with --~
[6674]Mr. dicenova. tet's make that clear. Tt just says
[6675]make. racommendations.
[6677]Mr, Maxwell. tn Mill's fix. te snentfv. [ think it was
[6679]intended that  dtts all hian intelligence collection abroad. ;
[6681]i
[6683]i
[6684]'
[6685]Mr. Aaron.. Yes. that's riaht. ; : |
[6687]All right. perhans we can do ov ta the next recomendati fir,
[6688]Lo . I
[6690]Naw this is bracketed. I think it might he better first before
[6692]we take un the bracket Jet's take up what is net oracketed
[6694]i]
[6695]H
[6696]cand just indicate that this is in effect hartatory., if you will.
[6698]Tt uraes the oversicht canni ttee to examine the question of
[6701]44 clandestine collection te ensure that it's really focused on,
[6703]things that peed clandestine collection that are of high
[6707]ortoritv, net only the hiahest. hut certainly degerve that kind
[6709]nF risk and effort and prenms in which clsendestine collection
[6711]are the anlvy means available. aa as te enrbasiza something of
[6713]a.
[6714]ne the extraordinary nature of esnionage. | .
[6715]as | Mos heyond thak there’ s the rerormendaticn that the |
[6716]_ / . . . . 7 a
[6718]ai i ctandestine eérvices bile fhe wilikary services |
[6719]rr | | 7
[6720]agi @predetn services, ba siiviceh toa nannewer cedhing,
[6721]os foredan service, be s |
[6723]TOP SECRET
[6725]wore PA
[6727]i
[6730]HW 50955 DocId:32423509..Page 99 ~
[6732]sp
[6734]Ve
[6738]6
[6740]Tothink this woul sot soecagt that that eollin: bela
[6742]publie fiqure but that th- Concress establish a manpower ceilinc
[6744]fer that, just as it. has there other services that serve in the
[6746]field of national security.
[6748]Now I know Charley fins soma reservations about that.
[6750]Mr. Kirbow.. Yes. “hut te put it in the proner context —
[6752]and I didn't bring it un at that noint, nor did Elliot, —
[6756]if vou look at the bottom of vase 32, we in cur findings. section
[6758]discuss a roint on the fack that wa dan't “now whether the
[6760]at
[6762])size of the clandestine sarvice ia the riqhk size,
[6764]We also indicate that over the past decade the aize has
[6766]haen reduced sianificantiv, rertionularty in’ the field.
[6768]Then ve core over hers ond racommend that thera be a
[6769]. wf
[6771]menrower ceiling for the clandestine sarvires anly of the
[6773]STA. Today there ig a buitaet cotling-on the numher of
[6775]neople in the CIA that is lane vorned by the anount of maney that .
[6777]they get and the amount off money that thav nuk forward to
[6779]support that. kind complement. -
[6781]T obtected to kind nf thea finontiod deen precass of aqoing
[6783]i
[6785]into a seament-of an arcan amt Limiting its mannower because
[6787]if we hada ervetal ball. we contd do that very carafully and
[6788]mroverly, C think. But f cant see inte the future and tea
[6790]|
[6792]veare from now we may nord
[6794]TOP SECRET
[6796]WP er CP AE
[6798]RW 50955. DocId: 32423509 Page 100
[6801]er bad becauea of the nrabtoas that eanld eanfrenkt the ngtton.
[6803]and fo Phin that einea t& da careafrlly gsontrallad be tha Congres
[6807]|
[6808]|
[6809]|
[6812]epenhe aR, i — BAe CORAL ge HS fl os oni | -
[6814]' through its hudaet -levets and rmannower. Levels, let's lek the
[6815]agency decide how many peonia it takes to run a seament of its
[6817]” l ovn organization.
[6819]| -_ Mr. Inderfurth. A very snecial. seqment. though.
[6820]. . . . . . ; : a . . .
[6822]& . Mr. Kirbow. Well. snectial only berause we have concerne
[6824].S tt ourselvas. with the abuse acnects of it under the assassination’
[6826]7 | tyne thing. Of more concern to us should he the fact that the
[6828]8 jp analytical section out thers: probably needs ctrenqthening
[6832]] | instead of werryinda about ceralating the size af the clandestine
[6834]io
[6836]service,
[6838]7 Mr. Inderfurth. Well. thak comes up later as well. -
[6840]oe
[6842]Mr. Kirbow. Ne von think that size in anv wav contribvt
[6844]VR to the nlot acainst Castro or some of these other neonle?
[6846]io nea
[6848]ut
[6850]“V4 My. Inderfurth. To think it has in covert action through
[6852]oh | Satin America.
[6854]| Mr. Bader. Mr. Chairman, L would support Mr. Kirbow on
[6855]| - , .
[6856]| this one.
[6857]. 1
[6859]Le My own view is unlese vou're aoind to go to the full
[6861]19 | extent of addressing the «mestion of establishing mannover
[6863]| ceilings throuqdhont the Central Intelliqence Adency, to single
[6865]ot one Airectorake. at this roint deesn't really wake much
[6867]| : . 7 Se - ‘
[6868]bo | sense to me, thondh Tounderstand the mrincinle behind it.
[6870]! Sanotor Huddleston. “eld. t do too, T think we can make
[6872]|
[6874]Ent ano b ota
[6876]a Flat chatamant oak vor eavdd saat tae. Bid that thers may
[6878]lobe a radnk semevhere up thers have ad which is a very canqearous
[6880]io FQR SECRET
[6882]| : . INO TRS
[6884]HY 50955 . DocTd: 32423509. Page 101
[6886]© i enecif
[6888]silhuak
[6890]ion.
[6892]ic size has yet becn shown to he
[6893]could sav that there oudkt to
[6895]I think the rest of
[6897]But T don't tid:
[6899]AX) chase pe
[6900]have
[6902]Link ve
[6904]he a speci
[6906]that
[6908]hole continuously examined.
[6910]ne
[6912]Q rime.
[6914]an
[6916]6 Senator Mathias.
[6917]| adiust,
[6919]an | Mr. Aaron.
[6921]ras bart robkher to sav.
[6923]vs ta tell me ehat that
[6925]HW 50955 Docld:32423509.
[6927]in ether
[6929]conkre.
[6931]Mr,
[6933]assumes that that kind -of
[6935]the committee could make a,
[6937]Mr.
[6939]seme oroblem.
[6940]veel: which would racuire
[6941]aervices.
[6943]“Now the point of it. is to sive really.
[6945]handle on the clandestine
[6947]difference.
[6949]Page 102.
[6951]diGenova.
[6952]Aaron. It nrannascs
[6954]agencies where one
[6956]the military
[6958]T mean ther
[6960]or from time ta tins
[6962]The
[6964]The
[6966]11 | nurvose of having a mannovwer ceiling as
[6968]b
[6969]t
[6972]Tov
[6974]adjust?
[6976]GP SECRET
[6978]Sep PAU”
[6980]datermined
[6982]50 detrimental
[6984]fic level.
[6986]recomnendatien
[6987]that kind of
[6991]mtaht have
[6993]ahouwt sayinae
[6995]ry ;
[6997]asink ta not just
[6998]hare bbe hag) | op
[6999]cr 3 Ptoaee 7 FO Imow.
[7001]ak the avpronviate
[7003]an emercencs
[7005]snacest that the oversicht committee put in its
[7007]eervices number. because
[7011]te gat hidher Limit
[7012]sven agh the Naenes
[7016]‘a review.
[7018]that
[7020]TY”
[7022]and we
[7024]paraaraph certainly ought to.
[7026]recond mart of that paragraph really
[7028]review would go on and if necessary,
[7030]me
[7032]bk vou vould have the
[7033]next.
[7035]PR SnArTt9g1s expansi, on of midi Lary
[7037]simealy to give or
[7039]arsenal of
[7041]ls over the clandestine activities that the CIA.
[7043]it
[7045]Lish
[7047]pberingk
[7049]nyt their money elsewhere.
[7053]some
[7055]makes a.
[7057]and annually
[7059]be
[7061]r
[7062]|
[7063]|
[7064]of
[7065]|
[7066]|
[7067]|
[7069]8
[7073]© 80
[7075]PP]
[7077]Oo
[7079]Nh
[7081]|
[7082]|
[7083]|
[7084]|
[7085]|
[7086]|
[7087]|
[7088]|
[7089]|
[7090]a
[7092].
[7094]military
[7096]BS 6 Ask yw eR ES A 9
[7098]under their authorized steondhh.
[7100]Mr. Inderfurth, rasthar alternative is to say should
[7101]consider establishing a nannower ceiling.
[7103]Mr, Kirhow. Could T make the naink that. oversiaht
[7104]of any agency necessarily entails locking .at the number of
[7106]neople it has every year - harausa vou have to datermine how
[7108]much monev they've got to sunnort and they have to come tell.
[7110]Fhoat.
[7112]L&E pre're aqoina to have can oversiaht. cammit kee, that is
[7116]one of the funetions that it vcerforme. ~ le do ik with Our
[7118]theam-all over in. that they can’b put all-the Navy neonle in
[7120]dagbrovers.
[7121]Sannctor Yuddleston. That's risdht. hot Tieomn't think
[7123]aancexactly’ equate clandectine creration. with other tyres of
[7125]‘agency onerations.
[7127]T think thare's a differenea here in the potential
[7129]dmract. ‘Th's a secret oneration.
[7131]Mr. Aaron. “Should consider establishing?
[7132]enator Huddleston, .f think fhat tt outht to. follow
[7133]the naracrank. Leave the oarsarach as if was and sayvothe
[7135]cemmittee should also consider the advisability of establishi
[7137]3 meannover ertiling,
[7139]Sepaktar Hatidne.  Addontoahle esd line.
[7141]bye 0 Maarten | Fossa boreal bie troy whak gaat oc ore tommaean
[7143]Tor SECRET
[7145]Wee op mR AL
[7147]Aw 50955 Docld:32493509 Page 103 -
[7149]services. but we dent tell then that we ean't put.
[7153]ina |
[7155]|
[7157]7
[7158]a
[7160]A
[7164]ion
[7166]i
[7167]t
[7168]|
[7169]aI
[7170]|
[7171]|
[7173]oe Tr, er ac
[7175]/ |
[7177]iH . |
[7179]t
[7181]| :
[7182]1 tt - * . : . :
[7183]Poo teaser fap this commitbher toorcememend to another cammittes that
[7184]. { . . 7
[7188]2) mavbe they oudht to do semethire. but C aquass it's all right.
[7190]Mr. Aaron, I'm avvaidt we do that multe a bit.
[7194]Me, Miller. We're just Javing out the aqenda.
[7196]fr , Mr. Kirbow. . Which is vot hindind on them,
[7198]7 ona of the nrovisions of the hill, as you know, is an agenda,
[7200]a ‘andacuany of thea items thats ve in that aeerd are subenmed in
[7201]i
[7204]a Mr, Miller, In the Cnovernment Operations Committee
[7206]|
[7207]t
[7210]1) fl Ahedsions? Overall sizé of the intelliaensea community is pre}
[7212]re |ovay they rreeommended tk. and € think ‘hat'g a reasonable approath.
[7213]OO : ; |
[7215]| _ooMr. Aaron. Turning ta the question of the Acency itsert|
[7217]i ia || puaher 23. this again is net in the categery of shatutory
[7219]1 ‘ . -_ a . . : . . ,
[7220]% pranosals but in the catedcarvy of urdqing tha Aqapeyv to ensure
[7221]vo |} that the skills of intAalliaencs collection are the orimary
[7223]a
[7225]js i criteria for advancement within the clandestine arvicas,
[7227]Senator Mathias, Versus management?
[7229]oS
[7231]Me, Kirbow. Mr. Chadrman. on thtt ane [can conceive
[7233]ef nethifia that would da more harm to either side of this
[7237]cuestion than to-say to aman who wants tn devote his life and
[7240]on jj wake accarcer in the clandestine servios rhak veo can’ ® det
[7242]|
[7244]i
[7245]i
[7246]| .
[7247]1 oo oMe. Baron, Verane covert cnarctions,.
[7248]i
[7249]|
[7250]|
[7252]cei | erangted en beadag cond abotatocaulre camendeadd ke he oina.
[7255]i ee eth a nn ce cee eee ee
[7257]Ho
[7258]a5 You a@eb mramated on hetan aoet ab this other agreer of at. and
[7259]| a TOP AEC ¥
[7260]po. TOP SECRE
[7261]| . 7 : : ; i . Sel oe ee
[7263]HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 104.
[7265]J wwf Log |
[7266]i
[7267]i
[7269]tr .
[7270]PO" bhirk Lette: just totally cob of heenina with what vou want. Ie
[7271]a vou want a qnod clandestine osaration,. vou wank the best you! 1
[7273]o cen find, and I think thet he should aet the same amount of
[7275]1 | eredit for being good at.vwhatever he's assianed to as heing in”
[7277]|
[7279]| this other intelligence Iusiness, |
[7280]|
[7282]i}
[7284]i
[7286]1
[7288]Bie Me. Aaron. The ink liieence business, of course, is
[7290]7 their. primary mission.
[7292]gS ‘ Mr. Kirbew. Not if t.a’s sa clandestine onerator. ‘That! |
[7293]7 Oo i
[7295]: . . . i
[7297]2 | hie nrimany business and he doean't heyve anv choice over whathe a.
[7298]. : : . . 4
[7300]Lo | oer nat he sets assiqned when he anes In out there ag ; |
[7301]ee a |
[7303]17 | a junior executive to the clandestine side of the day to day if
[7305]1.2 Ht oneration. ; 3
[7307]Senator tuddleaton. What does this address?
[7309]Mr. Raron, This addresses the prohlem of the clandestine
[7313]i
[7315]eollects intelligence. But it is in the nature of, or at least
[7317]j
[7321]|
[7323]i
[7325]|
[7327]i
[7328]| serviee which qoes to the geveral thins. Primarily it
[7329]“| : ; ; oe
[7331]I.
[7333]the past history of tha Avanev, which Bill can sneak more
[7335]t .
[7337]|
[7339]f
[7342]me
[7344]direc ely to than I. that the covert onerations neonle vet the
[7346]19 | bekter advancement. Thia din mart huilt into the system in
[7348]on | that vou can measure the offeck ef the covert amtion oneration
[7350]oI eactar than this eandloss affort to recruit @ qood aqent many
[7352]‘oo || times which will fall throwdh throuqh no fault of the agent
[7354]on |. birself.
[7356]i
[7357]| .
[7359]Furkhermore . aererk astion onerctives sdeniy come to
[7361]attention segder thar somabady whole a cased agent
[7363]TO a SRCRET
[7365]iv ope OP RU
[7367]|
[7369]as |
[7370]7
[7372]|
[7374]WW 50955 BDocld:324273509 Page 105
[7378]handler but wha is reall oseraking of fF in a very cecura and
[7379]ramote environment.
[7380]mo So in an effort te trv to sugqaest thak they make a
[7382]loi raal effort to compensate for hat we have found in this area,
[7384]this particular thing is destanad to urce them to do their
[7385]hest te try to overcoma tht oroablem.
[7386]Now we wanted ta mit it in a wav that was not pejorative
[7388]and that did not exaluda the advaneement of ¢ ood covert operators.
[7390]T&svon wank ta keen covert cnoerations - T ayrreea with Charley. .
[7392]|
[7393]|
[7395]uo | sen have ta have qed eres and ventve cok to reward them,
[7396]1
[7397]|
[7399]t don't think thak this narticnlar recommendation which.
[7401]ic to the Aqeney and not ta statute does vhat narhans Vharjey
[7403]Faers it would doa. Tt simmts urdes that thev saive the proner |
[7404]i
[7406]o>
[7408]wedehk tq what for the clandestine services is their mcimaryv
[7410]|
[7411]1
[7412]a . |
[7413]miasion, :
[7415]Mr. Bader. The nroblem of it is we're nok after this
[7417]liv and perhaps it's a lancunae problem. We're not trying
[7420]i
[7422]VA to suqaast here that the intelligence collectors in the career
[7423]L catkers should be favored over the orerster, What wo vere
[7428]after really was that v2 have noticed over the vears and in
[7430]cn the rend?A thak the intollisaerce onersteor has tendad fo move
[7432]ee | alondq much faster.
[7434]oz} What he has dane. hig creiecke ara very codoaklis visible
[7436]ghite intetliacne: cellestion can ba semething that runs over
[7438]|
[7439]i!
[7440]as } weare and itis hard ce tir tn the tremchas, And do think fhe
[7441]| .
[7442]FOP SECRET
[7443]TOD SECRE
[7444]i _ : , . vom nr rut
[7445]Sy 7
[7446]in | , Myr. KirBow. E'm saree. TT dan'’h helieva that that's
[7447]H 7 7 . .
[7448]Wy. . . .
[7449]; . ' lis J« { i hi Jyar the ua
[7450]Sy the case. What Tim really saving Is. this. Ovar the vears
[7451]~2 i From ahout 1947 on throwdh ‘the ‘61s. elandastine amerakions =
[7452]as i . . . . . . .
[7453]yo iowere a wav of life in the Cia, whether it ia in favor today
[7454]| _ : .
[7455]12 7 or not is meebably on the sida of no. it's not oin faver at
[7457]ey | the CIA hecause there ara onty 165 varsue some 59 ar £90,
[7459]Sanator Hnddlestan.° T really fon'h sea that ar being
[7461]Ac to gan this itis nek a cmasttion of whatier wo itke
[7463]i
[7464]7
[7466]fame bie oesgkion
[7468]ol aryplorb tyres areyal Pespyes ay pie . v kis foie
[7470]|
[7471]1
[7473]ap on
[7474]|
[7476]en || iq ocwbabher or not thos: dadtoiduala wha semre are cohen wanda.
[7477]BI chen |
[7479]. TOP SECRET
[7481]yon 7 RL
[7483]q
[7485]“HW 50955 ° Docld: 32423509 Page 106
[7487]7 uo. re Seen cae
[7489]i ,
[7490]hp a
[7491]oH pyaferantial treatment cet odvancement within the Agency.
[7492]yf . . :
[7493]2 i Is that what wetre Ervin to get to here?
[7494]St > Mr. Kirbow. They sav it’s within the clandestine servic
[7496]1 | thak the covert onerator cots more advancement within the
[7497]' : . a, ,
[7498]5h 4 elandestine services side of the house then the other people,
[7499]Aj and JT don't think our reeerd supports that.
[7500]? | It may be that vou have found more of the Ai tors
[7501]8 a heing from the covert side of the house hak ‘hat is. unt what the
[7502]1 . ,
[7503]Qf attack is here.
[7504]| Sanater Wuddleaton, Can't we may that owithin the:
[7505]i . : . :
[7507]clandestina services our
[7509]sacktiien in
[7511]-aovert have advanoed
[7513]Mr. Vader.’ Yes. if think
[7515]the clandestine S cet,
[7517]within
[7519]a :
[7523]n
[7525]LF; Ganekor tnddleaste Y And
[7526]re the Agency anaht to ens nye that.
[7527]Vt | he oiven the onrortunity haced o
[7528]if :
[7529]1a Mr. Aaron. That's the th
[7530]ta; exnteass here. :
[7531]i
[7532]ort Mr. Kirbow. Mr. Chairman
[7533]er} S@nator Tower on this ore hacaus
[7535]aunnorts fhat.
[7537]ea {the Commi thes
[7539]on. Mr. diGenayva. ling about
[7541]aan Intelliqauce shawl ensure thik
[7545]i : ' .
[7547]TOP SE
[7549]Pe De
[7550]j . : :
[7551]_ . yen
[7553]HY 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 107
[7555]Aneurdrow
[7557]1 the Committea
[7559]indicates that those in the
[7563]the record is clear on that
[7565]believes that .
[7567]emnloyees, whatever side;
[7570]n their actual skills.
[7572]rust of what we're trying to
[7574]. EL would Like to reserve for
[7576]6 t donth think the record of
[7578]jfouwe gaid this - the ventral
[7580]Intel lioence
[7582]oration «as wv aribtarion for
[7584]CRET
[7586]a
[7588]|
[7589]1
[7590][
[7591]|
[7592]|
[7593]|
[7595]HW 50955
[7597]4
[7599]or
[7601]eotlection are qiven inn
[7603]to acauire information. and T think thak chat we're try
[7605]oe
[7609]arvancement within the shades tne serviass .
[7611]- Ms. Culbreth, «Tian ver ot back in to what we struck
[7612]ove from the original. which was as ‘onposed to covert action
[7613]onerations._ We deletes that Fran the eariier thing to try
[7616]Mr. diGenova. I'm trying. to just naraphrase what the.
[7618]Senator just said, what they said was the thrust, which was
[7620]that intelliaence collection: canabilities arr cut onan equal
[7621]Fantinag with onerations..:
[7623]Me. Aaron. What ft) think dea hether wav to pub the:
[7625]neint, and it's alond tha. some line, micht he to simoly say,
[7627]to urce that the Agency & siiills of intel licénce
[7629]bance in advancement within the
[7630]clandestina serviess of that mission For the clanilastine
[7631]. : : 1
[7632]services. if ven will.
[7633]In other words, the orca at bulk of the people in the
[7634]clandestine services, aniCharley rointed ent, are in fact
[7635]intelliqence collectors. Ther are case of Fi ers For trying
[7637]i
[7639]ng to
[7643]arrive at here is that ih shew)a hea ativan an imnortance. that |
[7645]this skill should be aden an immertanae and siantfirencde in
[7647]FE:
[7649]nrenortion to thea sian tense haat tho Anency accords ta that
[7651]wmarkianlar task, |
[7652]4 i
[7653]Beary For tot: i aa i Web mae Loare crn bry Br ke oe k at haved
[7654]ct dh WON D2? mee AT Pare
[7655]Aya we mebhine ab the sack thak wea ant seme ster who. hacaus.
[7657]JOe SECRET.
[7659]sWaAbgg 7 OTR we
[7661]Docld: 32423509 Page 106
[7663]|
[7664]|
[7666]|
[7669]ro : . . :
[7670]pauf their clandestine skit is enn om
[7671]i ;
[7672]i : .
[7673]wrest of them, that they = ' ahead
[7674]i .
[7675]* Horchlem. You see it in the armed
[7676]‘ it rememher Commander Buckinoy whe.
[7677]“oy heakoman. and he just happened to
[7679]S| aft Corriqedar, ended un av Mtniral,
[7680]“4 ; Now T think thera ts such
[7681]is and daring wdounusnal aid that
[7682]Po bey Ae fleet, that From hevde fee antuiret
[7683]ry OMe. Frren. Re Toes. a Int
[7685]aa nature of things and the vececmencdation
[7686]| ok at an resard ae trednd. be commen.
[7689]ir . ‘
[7690]ol Caverboaettion dravca attention to the oar
[7691]t : , :
[7692]Lf feeatlection, vow da not cre nhbention ta vaurs
[7693]Les , Mr. Kirhow. There is a mere hasia rro
[7694]Lv Rererweny 2 T AIA anend somecanrnsaiderable time in
[7695]I .
[7696]ro The eres tient negnia. the meenta who burn ont
[7697]| . oe . .
[7698]! st in the Aqeneys and dak the omieh prometians are
[7699]ao promoted heeasuse thay art anvert onerskors ala
[7700]st Mork nf the vary fine vennle that thay
[7701]2 | Naa in the esrty vears vance) te he otha
[7704]. j
[7705]Watardio af tha aed roads.
[7707]i
[7709]rity ye
[7713]TOR
[7715]Tpvar
[7717]50955 Docld:32423509. Page 109
[7721]the
[7723]and I think
[7725]services
[7731]hes
[7733]"at.
[7735]of
[7737]because
[7741]the
[7743]Se
[7745]SECRET
[7747]‘he
[7749]an
[7751]mk let
[7753]sips h
[7755]Faye te
[7757]May
[7759]availalte
[7761]WAS
[7763]ho
[7765]he.
[7771]take
[7775]POG
[7777]smotions.
[7779]that that is a
[7781]all the time,
[7783]PT
[7785]MacArthur,
[7787]a human resnonse to courage
[7789]hard
[7791]in reeeenition.
[7793]nrahiam
[7799]era
[7801]ale,
[7803]hhlem to th
[7808]not
[7809]ne.
[7811]hace.
[7813]husiness
[7815]Wyre
[7817].
[7821]hor.
[7823]s bust
[7825]Ware
[7827]Yr
[7829]he
[7831]LR
[7833]“landestine
[7835]is at the
[7837]ness.
[7839]he excellent
[7841]asarily
[7843]that thev
[7849]|
[7850]7
[7852]i
[7853]7
[7854]|
[7855]|
[7857]and To owenlt comment. orthed!
[7860]|
[7861]|
[7864]|
[7865]|
[7866]|
[7867]7
[7868]|
[7873]|
[7874]'
[7876]in
[7877]|
[7878]t
[7879]HT
[7881]it
[7882]1
[7884]H
[7885]|
[7886]i
[7887]A}
[7888]i .
[7889]f
[7890]| i
[7892]Sy
[7893]i
[7897]LR i
[7899]|
[7900]jo |
[7902]|
[7903]|
[7904][
[7905]|
[7907]Vecision.
[7909]Fenator Huddleston Vell, there are too many elements
[7911]hore involved in who oquc'® fo he promoted... There are too many
[7913]haan, elements and somahnacdy beg bo male a decision.
[7914]Foqust don't know hor we can adune them on thet. TI
[7915]chink ¥ would strike that. f vould favor taking it out,
[7916]Mr. Aaron. Okay. vambor 24 anes to the nueastion. of
[7918]the relationship between FR doneastic contac’ divisio: and
[7920]the directorate of anerations or what is ctherwise known as
[7921]tne clandestine seryiess.
[7922]In 1972. T believe if was. when Mr. Schlesinaer weng
[7923]- - ‘$
[7925]to the CTA. this direchorateo whose primary ragnensibi lity is
[7927]Far oollecting overt inte llicenes hut whieh has a supmort
[7929]function fer the clandestine calleation or the clandestine
[7931]’ i
[7933]|
[7935]reeruitmenk of aqcents within the United Grates cad then moved
[7937]into the directorate of oanerations.
[7939]The Committea!ls on hearings and testimony on thea
[7940]fo,
[7941]subject indicated that a reasonably larce nartion of their
[7943]activity and their contacts ara used for the initial stages
[7944]of trvingd to snot, asserts. snd yet peonle close to forsign
[7945]{ntelliadence adent renetenank targete,
[7947]e
[7949]Now there are. ane coneern about that is that unlike
[7951]i
[7952]the foreian resqurese Uirrtstey whase mission igs <‘learly clandest
[7953]. I .
[7955]; . i . So, .
[7956]tha clwssph ier men boote Wietieateas mererpmachoe Fhetromemmte oan an
[7957]tho ceosrk ie ae i : AL e obthetr ; moa
[7959]grep basta, Gb saue, noe Pon neh a ery, flim pet cloiea anv
[7960]‘4 ° . ca nv
[7961]TOP SECRET
[7962]; i
[7964]Oar UE |
[7966]HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 110 :
[7968]ir
[7970]ee ce coe cere _ nie |
[7972]- Semvdnd. Toam an overk src person. ob hbelenn to the CTA.
[7974]tr would like you to tell sc ahont your tre vels or advise us
[7976]i
[7978]this relationship is completeciv above hoard in every wav.
[7983]'
[7984]hoo, —_
[7985]4 | oy some subject or what ave vou on an open basis, and that
[7986]| ;
[7987]if
[7988]ji And vou donth have to worry that this relationship is
[7989]; _
[7991]i) qlaning to he used for anvecvert nurpose.
[7993]\ ! . ,
[7994]Houever, it turns:cout that some of those relationships
[7996]Pp j-are or do or are hrought /ko.cvolee into sun rt for clandestine
[7998]activitiey in which information is aathared on neorle who might.
[8000]doo he helnful in all the waye and f think we had a pretky dood
[8003]i? qf attendance at. that sessian when this was. discussed, _ #
[8005]ie So the question cames down to this -- this blurringsof
[8007]the line hateeen an organization as toa whether it: mission reall
[8009]- |
[8010]aS overt ar not in every |=
[8012]‘eaneck. sheuld this be a concern to.
[8014]the Committee? And LE 4k de nf eencern to the Cermithee, should
[8015]7 | .
[8017]bey A take some steps to trv te reinforce its overt character
[8019]po fe and genarate it out from. the clandestine services where it is |
[8021]if
[8022]' -
[8023]rp | naw Ineaked and where at least a few of the neanle in the DCD
[8024]a :
[8025]re! have expressed some concern thak thev will now Fecome ropulated
[8026]po [with real clandestine ongraters and that they will roally sort
[8028]ny of heceome another arm of that ernaninc réian.
[8030]ag | Now Rill. Bader world like to tell ta this noint. Tt
[8032]aa | formerly wag mart of the Jirecktorste of intolliv one ich js
[8033]{ . - - .
[8034]wy | the mere ceert ery ef the Boenec ko beet uieh orel ont tected
[8035]cy s . ,
[8036]es pb Unfoxrmnatian,
[8038]OP SECRET
[8040]wanes BAYEL
[8042]|
[8043]|
[8044]|
[8045]|
[8047]WW50955 Doeld:32493509 Page 111:
[8052]i
[8053]: |
[8054]i
[8056]: i
[8060]a
[8062]pas : Th other cqovernments this name function is dene. for
[8064]example, in Britain it's ‘one I the board of trade hecause a
[8066]lot of the information it technical, economic, or scientific
[8068]in nature, which is alsa true For the DCD. as a matter of
[8070]Pact,
[8071]‘And so the questior that is presented to the Committee
[8073]is do we want to leave the ncn where it is in the Director. of
[8075]Clandestine Operations? — Pa ves cant to have "he clandestine
[8077]service, tf you will. have » suasi-overt arm within the United
[8079]wa want to confine the clandestine activities to the cland&stin
[8081]rs sarvice and the overt activities ho some omrert oranisation,
[8083]i
[8085]be that hack in the directorate of intellinence ia the Agency
[8087]which does ovarate openly am a matter of course?
[8089]3
[8091]| |
[8092]la | or moved out to the State Yep artment ov some other erdanizatian
[8093]1 . .
[8094]|
[8096]|
[8097]t
[8098]|
[8100]7 Mr. Inderfurth, hat vould that mean in tarms of
[8102]|
[8103]; |
[8104]LO 4 States widely spread ouk theeudhout the United States? Would
[8106]numbers? Uow large is the neon
[8108]Mr. Aaron. T belteve Jhb is about 150 of 290,
[8110]Mr. Nader. Thare are 38 affices. , |
[8112]a4 Mr. Aaron. And they are about two ar three man offices.
[8114]G |
[8117]if
[8118]if
[8121]|
[8122]i
[8123]|
[8124]—_ _ : i
[8125]ot KR lnt of the personnel in the PCD are in fFack succunded ~ From
[8127]the military services or PeROA. You know there are different
[8129]i] . 7 . . . ° + 7
[8130]ay ji areas. of the eountry thak have differant kinds. san knee,
[8131]Tay t . .
[8132]eq poor aorienlture. fe ovannis “iF they’ ne interested in
[8135]cr aarieulburs) inthe ieee wo Tatoo? bhege peappe come ok of
[8137]i ; . ,
[8139]_ YOR SECRET |
[8141]Weep PAUL . ° |
[8143]HY 409545 Docld: 324293503 Page 112
[8145]HW 50955
[8147]nA
[8151]a)
[8153]29
[8155]ye
[8157]Oey,
[8158]Lat
[8160]‘least heretofore it does the ‘overt. collection function as a
[8162]Ee
[8164]a
[8165]Ls
[8166]#8
[8167]5
[8169]actrioulture. Zo mean ible = funny kind of mixture of neople.
[8170]The CIA sort of ces this in part as a service of
[8172]cummon concern to the intellicqence community and in part at
[8174]service to its own analysts.
[8176]This was particularly in the early days when we had
[8178]less access to information in the denied areas of the world.
[8180]‘Th was avery rich source o% information for us. It still is)
[8182]auite a aead and important an l econemical source, and it's
[8184]a ctond prearam, ‘The cmestien is how much it should t> involved
[8186]in clandestine support and if-vou want te find a way to +
[8187],; encourage it, to. if vou will. amoharize ites overt mission®
[8189]over its cevert mission er de vou wank ta put it back into
[8191]some overt side of the Agenay or the covernment?
[8193]Mr, Maxwell. “Yo have. some very mixed Feelings about this
[8194]recommendation and the problem might be described better by
[8195]lookina at the flow of information Erom the end “point,
[8197]The PRMD now is involved in the recruitment of agents
[8199]|
[8200]for foreign intelligence catherina within the United Skat
[8201]A number of times they naed, and I think they have indicated |
[8202]to the Fommittee that tlie nead zome hele in determining. whether
[8203]they should qo to an indivianat and sav, can you intreluce
[8204]me to thie netential acens of influence inca eounbre. eon
[8206]ven inkreduce ma on the efodcob withork that blowing un dn
[8208]their Sacer
[8210]Fa ‘SECRET
[8212]WON PTE AAU
[8214]Doctld: 32423509 Page 113
[8216]2)
[8218]Mo: i Na BA Ge : oh
[8220]The question then fa hos ean they be nraovided wtth the
[8222]information that they need to allow them to make a recruitment
[8224]that the Committee mav find is valuable.
[8226]tt it is from the Ch. if has all the problems that
[8228]Navid articulated, and Toannrecitake these oroblems. The
[8230]auesticn the Committee har to face is where thev are aoing to
[8232]aet that information, whether Le should he for the UCD. whether
[8234]it’s located in Dbo. Fram fhe: omy, whether it’s lecated in the
[8236]ANT or frem the NN. ar lsaested jn the State Denartmant or
[8238]under State Denartmant cantret,
[8240]My own sense of thak is that the decision that vas ade
[8242].bv Director Schlesingar inomosind ih fram the PPL to the DBO
[8244]did raise the potential of compromising the overt character,
[8246]hot it alse made the liaison which we find important more
[8248]‘Af ficient and easier to manace and potentially easier to
[8250]eentrol if both elements ars under the same set of guidelines
[8251]and reaulations which would aavern the pn as a whole 98 to
[8252]who mav he apnornachad. who may he need onerationally.
[8254]If itts put in another directorate or cataide. { think
[8255]there's a aiffionlty in that kind of contral and to think dtis
[8257]r
[8259]also, it? ohviously raises fhe anestion of whether the ern
[8261]Was aoinda to aat the information that it needed for a valuable
[8263]funebion of reeruiting feretonere while thev'ra in the tmited
[8264]State.
[8266]To RBG pr the Conn Fete manos any on sheep Of ume tay
[8268]“TOR SECRET |
[8270]weeny PAE
[8272]HW 50955 BDocld: 32423509 Page 114 -
[8274]a / Se ge MR : ‘ie |
[8276]foehink that the end nradauct bes ta he looker? at in the reeruitmen
[8278]"’ lof snies, and secondly weet bave to look at what kinds of
[8280]Jj) acsurances could be made th ony branch of the caovernment if
[8281]do ojovert collection is heind done as to whether that infermation
[8282]F | eeanld be used hv another brauch of the covernment. -
[8284]If DCD were -antirely cvert and a promise were made to.
[8286]1
[8287]|
[8288]% Mr. Bader that this would nevar be used for an operational
[8289]a |, euvpose or vou would naver ‘rs asted as a convtenting adult to
[8290]o aid in an orervakional nurreose, then theo end reeduction might well
[8292]VO be thakbvbhe FRn is goina-te be sending reonle ouk covertly
[8294]ya within the United States kn arvarthy ohtein information tay
[8296]aeterminea if they are aging toaomehe a cevert enmproach to ai’
[8298]Foyviqn sev, and £ think that £ have real hesitation about,
[8300]rather than the information betna available from consenting
[8302]individuals on an. omen bayside,
[8304]7 ; Me. Aaron. If Fo could add to that. L agree, I think
[8305]co
[8307]vane
[8308]re ne ee
[8310]ye | tre cuestion is if you'’re qeind to allow the conduct of
[8312]iq || recrudkments ho take place and veu're detnd to atlow informatio
[8314]to be collected on these rencle. gomehordy has te do-it and
[8316]on |) so you're not aoing to aveid anv of those cuestiens hy this.
[8317]oy The fssue sees te cant te whekher the neerle who will
[8318]4 ae . ‘
[8320]sof initially heain davelorim: that information will ne people
[8322]av fiwdth avert dueantive te been th within certain tounds or whethe
[8324]’ . y 1
[8326]BV ee wp Pots dneciyk de cn ety bon ork ab popeon Soopprepeesn
[8328]Soto that.
[8330]“3
[8332]| T thiak Unak is te de teow Pepyoos eibuetton in which “He
[8334]) 0 PS RCRET
[8336]oS ROU . .
[8338]HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 115 - | .
[8340]is
[8342]a wa Yow
[8344]Hen eon ia leaitimate Ly Tae mapbesh otth veadecios aml large.
[8345]nabers of neanle who oblereiar . if our other recommendations
[8346]ia here are accepted ans even sous of the internal regulations
[8347]of the CEA are written je Lee. people: woamdel be kind of off
[8348]beunds for onerational une.
[8350]“Mow the nen, hawewr yr. hecause Leas overt, is-allowed
[8351]to deal with these pean tle . and the qmestion.is. well. the
[8352]ipeentives to be serumalons in their activities, keeping them
[8353]everk and not trvind te une neople sor of for operational ,
[8355]eunnort and so forth, thé cuestion is veuled those ircentives
[8357]ke hetter ontside the PN or inside the oe or vould it make
[8359]a dif ference. ; . an 4
[8361]The second paink ia. smd this is « somewhe* different
[8363]regpk the POR is having an ineseasing mroklam. colby. frankly,
[8365]and we have had testimony from tie. Melson anc others. he's
[8367]having a problem because it fs associated with the Cin.
[8369]Now people area reluctant ko come rake with then because
[8370]OE aoncern ahout- being aganciated with Lhe CTA, The feeb that
[8371]thee actually do engage in onevational suenert deesn'' help
[8372]bhatt very mach,
[8374]And ose the aeakion fe Pf vow wealbiveo wank be oollest
[8376]eurloitation of the foreian tube llidence. nen foreinn
[8378]inkel}iaerea notentiol of fh: American pesele who are: olline
[8380]Mey M ab bre
[8382]te daaperabersarer y  chentitp
[8384]pydebo dae uk aes thie apes af cLandserhine wet te tos
[8386]JOP SECRET
[8388]Vole
[8390]HW 30955 DocId:32423509 Page 116
[8393]i daseneiated with if?
[8394]t . .
[8395]| . ;
[8396]2 | That is somewhat <crorate hut relevant.
[8397]3 Mr. Kirhow!) Mr. Chairmen, apparently they're not talking
[8399]4
[8401]e
[8403]3
[8405]Joval citizens are willing Foceiva te them.
[8407]29 offices. and all vou have to doa is look if unr
[8409]a CIA function there.
[8411]Tor SECRET
[8413]ween PAUL
[8415]i
[8417]|
[8418]i
[8419]t
[8420]fo. ; .
[8421]htheb subqeeb os
[8422]|
[8423]a
[8425]HY 50955 Docld: 32423509 Page 117
[8427]lhut voulre kalkina ahout calling it esemethina else
[8429]thedr telervhone number in the rublic telenhones fia each
[8431]Le | year or twa. Bub just te tall sbhont wevindg. it back
[8433]of reenrd that is net working meonertly rey or more
[8435]there. I dantt think welre in a mositien to decide
[8437]|
[8439]ae | decide that vou wank fo maya dtosnt of fhe CIA 7 ned
[8440]| penar tment af Stata. PF fhinbk the reared da bokabley
[8441]i
[8443]‘aAbant doina it with anv feunr pesnle or any different neople,
[8445]8 Tn discussing this vith Mr. Nelson. under whom it comes
[8446]i now. and with Mr. Proctor. undar ehom it previously came, .
[8448]yo | - . ;
[8449]Rolo thes An not distinavish anv of thea problems, that they are
[8450](3 hevind any oroblans in maintaining centank with ever 100,000
[8451]American citizens who are bind of returnind travellers and’
[8453]that they are getting the tyes of information thet these a
[8455]Bi
[8457]These neorple advertire their address and prohebly nut
[8458]and sav that's
[8460]1 It is nrohably as overt as anvthina they do except
[8462]va i testifv on the ALLL. which has become very overt in the past
[8464]into a
[8466]ba | nlace where they dust moved it ent of on the lack of some kind.
[8468]rroperly
[8469]that. To.
[8471]into the
[8473]eogd on
[8477]NY Se, getuNNiRe ene we
[8480]m : eo whiny
[8482]Todnsk hate to sec es recopmmeped hakineg aveay fom one
[8484]elace and puttinag Lt sary nhac else without-a record.
[8488]Senator Nart. Can b we recommend that we put it back
[8489]jin intelliqence and the overadaht committees consider that. -
[8490]after it's created and 84 on,
[8491]Senator Huddleston. ‘liv was it taken euk of intelligence
[8492]‘Mr. Bader. It was a cuestion of consolidation af |
[8493]; collection in one Jirecterato. |
[8494]¥ou Bee. while the demeutie contrack -srrvice was under
[8496]the DDL. it was a collection service. Lk was in an enalytieal
[8498]breocb and. Schlesinger, ag I understand tt, feit that it wes . .
[8500]the tidy thing to do tn mak all collectors under the came eo
[8501]senator luddleston. cuart and covrrk?
[8502]tr, Bader, Yes. And fT think the’ inesues ocre ave been .
[8504]I had very litkle bo add ta them, ¢ think it is an
[8505]isene, 1 have a personal concern that we have vot taken the
[8507]responsible officials at any -length on thea record on- this
[8509]ntaces or disadvantades.
[8511]avestion of the relative ad
[8513]reary vel) articulated. . a : _ : |
[8514]rerience ig that it |
[8516]My own parsonal view with some en
[8517]seems tocme Jt would make a areat deal of sense for this .
[8518]. s : *, i . : , a . . a a ‘
[8519]-funetion to be under the PPI to smphasize and unciarlina its
[8520]cvertness and that the indisictuals who are in this particular
[8522]saryice ar nfEdce then weld. fine naturelle fre
[8526]ey Mie Serenk hinds of meante os they ten
[8528]a
[8530]ila and tho wet Ihe y
[8532]FOP SECRET
[8536]ron PNR
[8538]50955 Docld: 327473509 Page 116
[8540]peey fF ' ae78 en: or LLG |
[8541]i .
[8542]ti i
[8543]| 7 |
[8544]to Hite he before LO7L, 1972.
[8545]| .
[8546]tat { : A
[8547]| Senator Huddleston. ts there anv chance that anybody
[8549]: rota be denied the product of this investication if we changed
[8551]i . |
[8552]& | Mr. Bader. One of the things ve should hear in mind, |
[8553]& Mr. Cheirman, is that if. vou co down the road and talk. about
[8554]t . ‘
[8555]7 || these various reforms or chances in the ‘intellicence structure,
[8556]| - -
[8557]‘fo a that moving the DCT function and enhancina bis newers and then
[8558]2 | nerhans eyentually serarating: the Director of CIA From the
[8559]ro rer. that at this noint iho weunlda seem levdical for an overt
[8560]11 | sottection eide of an intelliaence aceney to bea with the >
[8561]ve fer. ‘
[8562]Ls . Rut that 3s down the road as well and nerhans vhat we
[8563]_ oo . .
[8565]ht want to do with something Jike this is vou don’t understand
[8569]7 Mr: Maxwell. No. f
[8570]Me. Kirbow. What bee's
[8572]side our
[8574]side out there without
[8576]aroup furnishes to them.
[8578]‘Mr. Pader,
[8580]-Mr, TF
[8582]|
[8583]|
[8585]LA all of this overt
[8586]J Maxee | 1 -
[8588]take the antire npr
[8590]and
[8591]me |
[8592]li
[8593]an | feanctar iy Abedhes
[8594]on aceonb omteht le both sceccrk
[8595]Tor
[8597]BW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 119
[8599]donth.
[8601]ne
[8605]Down the,
[8607]Voy
[8609]Cleary bet
[8611]WT | PAL
[8613]really saving is that if you move
[8615]thea DCT leave the convert
[8617]2. Vou
[8619]fF tha gnemork Funetion. which this
[8621]road shen vou have a "ct
[8623]oman
[8625]that thea
[8627]we hovn a asitvation chara an
[8629]SECRET
[8632]|
[8633]|
[8635]ui . ae i
[8636]1
[8637]a
[8638]io Mr. Rirhow. These cearetia out there are nok adaents.
[8639]i.
[8640]2 | These are emplovees, Ant most of them, by the way, are former
[8642]ei ployees. whey are retired CIA officers.
[8644]Senator Huddleston they are hot mixina the assiqnments?
[8645]an | _ Mr. Kixrhow. Ne. the. Foe examnte. LC don't mind puttins
[8646]“A | this on the record,
[8648]° We had a large international organization in the company.
[8650]8 J) Twas with Before J returns! to the Senate.  Uefore we departed
[8652]ye mould vat a briefine on the olace where we were going to
[8655]i
[8656]j
[8657]i
[8658]| l
[8659]|
[8660][lind of safenuard against making defense mistakes, arl when we
[8661]— - achat \wnen |
[8662]| came back, they came and-ohad Lanech with vou and asked you fo
[8664]kind of reveal or when veu vere dealing with the director .
[8666]iz bot whatever it was in Sinuanocre, what was the situation? What.
[8667]141} was the atmosnohere? What's soing out there hecausa .cu were
[8668]. , .
[8669]i ina husiness atmosrnher® and rubbed elbows. and thev came and. !
[8670]va | mat with you and did this. %r occasionally you would stop -
[8671]to | by the San Francisco office and you'd do this.
[8673]“That's the business theee people are in. orincinally.
[8675]ya i Tan’t that correct?
[8677]we) - Senator Huddleston... tiace. do you have any thouckts on
[8678]my | this? ts
[8682]Senator Mathias. 7 con't think anvone has discussed |
[8684]ontion nurbher 2 while Live been siting bere, arl Dohavontt
[8688]i
[8689]i
[8690]ip bean sitkhine here consisters ior Pub ts Shere any value ho
[8691]ortbine Ph ooukoand ccr tte Gk mia le Shakar o |
[8692]— 1% SECRET
[8693]j vo _
[8695]HW 50955 Docld: 32423509 Page 120
[8699]6
[8701]12,
[8702]Ts
[8703]na
[8708]duet to-be the Ao tL ts ndvneate, mre of tha values that
[8709]aceurs to me is to bring the State penartment in touch with
[8711]" | ; | |
[8713]ality. |
[8715]My. Kirbew. Well vou'Tl never aet me to tel) a member
[8716]of the Denartment of State rersonal business that I was conduct ip
[8717]For my company in Sinaapars hecause I don't think that it
[8718]would he -
[8720]That put ik persenal iy. L don't thin that T wondd
[8722]7
[8723]1
[8724]have bkrus; sad them with the ereorets of what my eeroany's operati ok
[8726]‘sare versus an intellicence eraanization. Wot an onen
[8728]oraanization like the Penartment of Stake. -
[8729]Mr. Aaron. The infersatlon ocltiecked by the Deo is:
[8731]fudbiy available te avery adcicy of the aevernmrant., [t's not
[8733]considered classified or ceeret or anvthind alse.
[8735]|
[8737]|
[8738]as
[8740]|
[8742]|
[8744]Mr. Kavrhow, These eck veu a lot af cnestiong.
[8746]no record on this and for us dusk to hanhazardlv make this
[8748]racommendation without our recernd --
[8750]i
[8751]Senator Hart. ‘the vorinsiral araument, Mac, is that eed £
[8753]The compromise Toincacted wae a
[8754]and that the  new-conmmithtes took at ertion 2. when it is in |
[8755]existence and has made a oreenrd,
[8757]Senater Unddlestoan Tim ineliresd to an with ovtion 1.
[8759]Tohave aocunstion. ge csava the Committees reaame onde pepe Rernandhe
[8761]agersdebt cammitbe > reese
[8763]Tew de thie cmdes ke works
[8765]TGP 4 SECRET
[8767]Arty PAUL
[8769]’ HW 50955 DocId: 32423505, Page 121
[8771]“i “tin. Aaron. I juet bthaeic thab dao deaftines the charter --
[8775]soy that the Committee recowmemis that it he removed ar moved
[8777]I
[8778]4
[8780]actually vou can just env vor recommend by statute or vou could '
[8782]aot back. and vou can Jeave ih te he MCL te dn it. | - re
[8784]f Senator MNuddlesten. stust recommend that if be done. :
[8786]“B Mr. Kirbow. May I resnectfully reserve .on that?
[8788]? | Mr, Aaron. All right. Now 25. wate qoing to set some
[8792]Sand 26 ab bho
[8794]fe testimony temerroy mornitrer op
[8796]o | setoelly do. and we will bare thet on khe record,
[8798]bo dp And 2?) will be moced un. as we have talked about it
[8800][
[8801]t
[8802]t
[8803]Vi eorlier. And 26, then, was the order of thosiness. and that is |
[8804]pow tha rmronosal- that in froko ove ousth te coneider a medel rather H
[8806]Ls Qibhs the mritish. which Le bhak counter Luke Lliupnee by the
[8807]yo CTA and by o + fim-serry the euthoer ef this is met he oo = by
[8809]fotke counter dintelliqerce. bo the OTA. and the rer. be sonseli-
[8811]dated inte one organization sland the Lincs
[8813]Tooan svever Kean them ckral
[8815]5
[8817]Me, Tnderfurth. Fire. Phis would
[8819]Senator Muddlestor.:. Mhera wontd thab aganay he in the
[8822]a
[8827]Rr diGenova. e the madeb fowas actking at before
[8829]oe that the domestic tas forme an? John FALLf£ has some problems
[8831]a
[8833]“f
[8835]ee |} with these raceommendatione th, qunk socotlaichbine rhis
[8837]moe F Phos. Us Coesnfe
[8841]ae,
[8842]He,
[8843]z
[8844]om;
[8850]Lar ad
[8853]50955 Docld:32423509 Page 122
[8855]mo oie Tiller. Phator bescaeee he hasntt heard the
[8856]2 | recommendations that this be denn by athers., It's just an
[8857]liea to he considered,
[8859]boy “Mr. Kirhow: Hela verdad ik _iIo-reserve on this.
[8861]K | Mr. diGenova. Tim net cure that's
[8863]A | Mr. Inderfurth. "fell. the military intelligence services
[8864]? | nour he added to this Fit. CIA and militarv intellidance.
[8866]f | , Mr, Raven. TK voulr o-rotmer te corsolidate thah function.
[8868]Lhooudht te be consolidated wPh the war around.
[8870]Tag Mr. Miller. Thev'’re clichtilv differant achivities on
[8872]fi ithe nart of the military hecause they're involved in hase 4
[8874]Lp j pretection, So oo 2
[8876]yen Isn't that correct?
[8878]ba | , Mr. Snider. Well, that ecomter-esriconagde cueration
[8882]ie [ovens their own nersoenne) corid-wite,
[8883]| Mr. Miller. But in ccmnection with bases’, that's their
[8885]A | Me. Snider. Not necessarily kased, but information, .
[8886]A { . . . . *
[8887]Noinilitarv infermation. As lana as you are consolidating that
[8891]jy ii connection. | , a
[8893]funetion. T don't see ehy om shouldn't include the wilitary
[8895]or
[8896]nO
[8897]| . .
[8898]oy | services. thts dust a smelt pnink,
[8899]| ;
[8901]Soo to. Senator Hart. Mr. Chaarean, T certainly faver the
[8902]ov bconcenk that if there !s any che area cchere we ger aven a little
[8904]aa draana elememtel our cers Pn-okhe eaaunber-intellicense avers.
[8906]ond Aad Tam. aworea know. orroecd te further some} iestion of
[8908]“TOP SECRET
[8910]wc PAU
[8912]t
[8914]BW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 1235
[8916]4 “ ata ag HAR \
[8917]if ;
[8920]bo odoene hiding nlaces for reeoenstihi lity ar aeeountarbiiiby 0 Bart ;
[8921]Pt think creation of a seerrata unit here and consolidation |
[8922]\ jaould enhance accountability rather than mabe it more ene
[8923]+ ! . . .
[8924]: . : : . - 2 .
[8925]an We have found out in oir took at the Kennedy. assassinatin
[8926]| . . a
[8927]® and I. think in a number nF other instances, COTHTELPRG and so |
[8928]i . . : : ;
[8929]“A jen. there was duplication and overlap and abuse and poor: |
[8930]v nerformance and misnerfermance and ahout evervthing you can
[8931]o | ehink of aning on here bebe com othe FRE ant the GFN and mayne |
[8932]Q ayven the military. |
[8934]a So T think we have te look at semethindg anc nek just
[8935]ny a mandate on counter-inteolligence. T think this is a * soung |
[8936](oO recammandation to make. . - |
[8937]t . . . . =
[8938]lea Mr, Miller. It doesn’t have to be into a new acency. .
[8939]a ae us :
[8940]14 q ER wav bea rejationshin that is lass than an vacency.
[8941]aA Nr. Aaron. Is tb khie concept here that khis oraanizat me
[8942]! | i | Lo
[8943]ig | wenld conduct all the eounter-intelligence activities abroad? |
[8945]sel Tomean in other words, the counter-intellicence functions that
[8947]ryt '
[8948]rat every station has to, inl effack, cominet, for exaAnp)e that |
[8949]|
[8950]|
[8952]49 establishes; perhaps nuts an agenk in a local securities service
[8954]to make sure thak local secured ty service is. coonesratina with
[8955]wa and Rot coonarating with the Soviets. 7
[8957]That is the counter -jnvteliigqgence action. Is that ‘someth nc
[8959]mo
[8960]wore
[8962]i danavtmantal mnauscear -dobel dissuce perottved:
[8964]os Mr Tirbow. 0 we a fat daa ahenth dyplieabiindg in mater
[8966]TOP SECRET
[8968]|
[8969]| thie ordaniantion would do as well, or wrondd there he
[8970]|
[8971]i
[8972]1
[8973]|
[8974]| wea PAUL.
[8976]HW 50955 Docld:324293509, Page 124
[8978]ry
[8980]examination lead to clarification of role and ramove the 4
[8982]remove the words, during the next vear hacanse if they do
[8986]mromortians. major asnast2 nf the PRT heeause they nse. their
[8987]acents for dual purposes - if he isn't out here law enforcing
[8989]on a Priday afternoon, then he's doina whatever else he's
[8990]malified to do in this field.
[8992]Mr. Miller. That's nart of. tha reason nerhans that
[8994]some of the abuses have occurred. .The qrev area becomes very
[8996]mucky indeed because ef the dual nature of the agent's activitie
[8998]wheraas the nursuit of Fore. anemies, and -athar than having
[9000]the hand-offe of the situation that we've had in the vast.
[9002]that consolidation mioht remove that erobtem and it wight upon
[9004]-
[9006]kinds of arev areas that eiated in the nast. Ent it's only
[9007]al cusaestion to Inok into mere thorouthly. mets nothing mere
[9008]than that and I think it has merit to ah least took into
[9009]it thorounh ly. |
[9011]Mr. diGenova. crhatis A spacific recommendation that the
[9012]nev oversiaht committees consider that auestion, | |
[9014]Mr. Kirbow. T wes inet reminded by nv colleanies that
[9015]that recommendation is cather Lunacuods. thay can de anything
[9016]or not do anvthina . |
[9018]To an think here aaunin. an ve suanested earlier va should
[9020]averythine that wea pan reeeunended. thay vent have time to
[9022]ye ke lench the woo thdpes see sadn. Ub clon? Fb wa aay that
[9026]a
[9028]the oversinhk mommibte  cbecitd ae sider
[9030]a
[9031]7
[9033]aside. Yo think that
[9034]CRE
[9036]bon
[9037]weve 5G PAU
[9039]TOP SE T
[9041]ere cgterrarr enema
[9043]BW 50955. DocTd:32423509. Page i125
[9045]HW 50955
[9047]within .
[9049]al
[9050]. |
[9051]Povo tre now direeting anetier cenoittee ba do many thirers
[9052]a |? short werid of time arnt they mev have more important
[9053]rocommendations that they consider toe.
[9054]A “Me. Aaron. Now --
[9056]an . Senator Huddleston
[9058]& | te he more specific, but.
[9060]7 jowe can’t.
[9062]“The natural
[9064]aboukt
[9070]response can he. well, we
[9072]to took ab it.
[9074]Mir. Qaron. Well.
[9076]falking about some ideas
[9078]red ber
[9080]he sevtious
[9081]talking
[9083]yy | i think- the vay the Comnd
[9085]ig | tive leaqitimacy to the
[9087]jo bh ere iniaght well question and leok ab furth the:
[9089]g |} one mig ;
[9091]- commithee,
[9093]feb kK think that serk of falls in that game cabecte
[9095]fp Senator Iluddlesten, “aula it belo ahy: to sav
[9096]|
[9097]1 .
[9099]oy || because of the nature of obhic kind of aghivibyv or bre
[9100]4 |
[9101]an tat \
[9103]eq doit does lanl dteet& be sreci iis Peet phew
[9105]“des Bde.
[9107]' Pocla: 32423509 Page 126
[9111]cuegkhior Le.
[9112]recommending t!
[9113]thing
[9115]siv considered, tr
[9119]- tomould like For cur
[9121]is aging te be ta us as
[9123]Ite
[9125]“a
[9127]yeu for
[9129]Vu eb
[9131]thanc? . ancl our
[9133]hae
[9135]1 tt
[9137]den'k hknow. We dust think
[9139]UC think in some Cases we're
[9141]thak deserve a weasure of 1.
[9143]mean, For eramnle, we
[9145]thee came out it
[9147]aoand ite practicality er
[9149]with
[9151]recomnendations
[9153]thatithere are times when
[9155]prgteg ines
[9157]|
[9158]|
[9160]|
[9162]nembers
[9164]No you
[9167]we ought
[9168]3
[9170]2
[9172]really
[9173]aitimacy
[9177]| eavliér ahout the net haing separated from the Agency.
[9179]rversight
[9183]phat
[9185]» Taek
[9187]|
[9188]|
[9189]|
[9190]|
[9191]|
[9192]- |
[9193]|
[9195]'
[9197]toy “Mr. Kirbow. Senntes. the individuals. we con'h have any
[9199]: . 4
[9200]2 areat bia record that there wearea roque agents out there in the !
[9202]doing this. There wane roanna policies cown at the headquart
[9204]Now if vou have the san bind o£. rosue policy in a néw
[9206]5 agency, you! lL have the same end result.
[9207]. . . 1
[9209]| i
[9210]6 So it doesn' &£ accorelich anything for us to do this and [
[9211]" | point at the individuals hecnuse it was a orincinal.
[9212]a | Senatnr fluddlesten. £ didn't specifv individuals.
[9214]| .
[9215]2 | auet said it has hannened an? ib's the area where it, is |
[9216]: | : ; A
[9217]qe | Svemerkibie. a
[9218]| Mr. Kirhow. Certainly tha potential for abuse is gkeat
[9219]aa tin this Area and it should be studied carefully and mcobably |
[9220]pa j uraentiy by the Subcommittee. To mean the new oversiqhk
[9222]| _ ;
[9223]ia || committee. -
[9224]: i
[9226]Poo , _ ; CF {
[9227]tr —° Senator Hark. TR vasa’ motantial. it wae actual. .I'd
[9228]ia || Like to see the committee recommend stronaly that they go in
[9230]le! this direction on the hasis of sur 13 months of looking at the
[9232]iy | damn thing.
[9233]ft - T dentt know Rew Lona vou hbaye bto-ostudy seme pyoblem |
[9234]any | bafore you fo something shot ik, |
[9235]| Se enakor Nuddleston. Hod), Lim content a Inave it as |
[9237]oa | th is. taking out aurinn the next year.
[9240]OF Ms Culbreth nid wa add military: seewiess?
[9241]Toe Mad Lar Phabts cp seed peda
[9243]Mer Mieheow. Ay! mou bey Lebel Lis remoe Fonckians and lerusc
[9245]vO P PRCRED
[9247]sme UL
[9249]H
[9250]'
[9251]en |
[9253]|
[9254]at
[9255]ra ||
[9256]HT
[9258]|
[9260]|
[9262]|
[9264]|
[9268]HWY 50955 Docld: 32423509 Page 127 |
[9270]eh a \ de 6 enw Be ge 9 OO r2h
[9272]poutethe aceneias individiolle: Peave nut thea ent andl the CIA.
[9274]if
[9275]|
[9277]> | Mr. Miller. I thin namtna them is. a dqood idea,
[9278]4
[9280]ml Senator Wuddleston. * sness this «ets into the domestic
[9281]Al task force also.
[9282]Rod Mr. Raron. Yes. The Committer will want to look at that
[9283]fs , Now if we qo on ‘to sur next set of recommendations for | |
[9284]7 jl aovert action. we can he halfeav through the renort. That
[9285]i o . ; eon : | °
[9286]Po iiventd he moving ta nade 13. vhera we will otalie ur a number of |
[9287]2 yj Tecommendak ions related to ceverh action and paramilitary
[9288]{ . . . . :
[9289]to | activities. which relate ka what the stated nurrosa in Law
[9291]11 lof these ackivities ouqhh to be. what restrictions miaht be
[9292]io] olaced unen them. what revtey and accountabs lite nrocedured .
[9293]ya |omicht apply te them and what bind of centeols Frem the Conaress js
[9295]standpoint midht he planed on then from Fhe. standnoint of
[9297]te | ether tha buddet or some other aspects. nacticularly the.
[9299]je | DPaxamilitary activitiss.
[9301]ay - If we start with the Firsk one on rage 48 --
[9302]ot. . Senator Mathias. Mere Chateman, don't vou think we ought
[9304]| to. skim lidhtly) Much as ve are all desirous to get te that
[9306]0
[9308]oa | halfway mack. IT think we had better leok at the text very Light4y
[9310]. 5 ree / - : 5 1 : 1 : 2 |
[9312]oy, | beainnina on nade 42. TR ovowldn't take very Inna ko oo that, |
[9314]. H 7 : - 7 “ . . / , . ; . .
[9315]ne te, ; (Pause) : - ; -
[9317]ror, 4 .
[9319]a | - Senator Mathias. Moy erohlem eith the Anaata aa
[9320]m4 Foye epene nh that band ak eeyteierergy are jrosetne te ew yhee? |
[9321]or | Rey ores Tae a oracerd te ocnnoert thea,
[9323]| OP SECRET |
[9324]) ce ha a 2 Oe .
[9325]HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 128 :
[9327]a Mr. Bader,
[9329]i! Mr. diGenova.
[9331]of a question that
[9333]S | information.
[9335]2
[9337]wan
[9339]when thery was an
[9342]“What's the
[9346]a Wasn't ther
[9348]pener: that we were
[9350]Mr. Aaron.
[9352]-yeviewing with the
[9354]Fonsakor Mat
[9356]: 2
[9358]mirhow.
[9360]oj Mr. Millar.
[9361]ao Mr. Kirhow.
[9363]BSR Lee BN Bee oe '
[9365]ara)
[9368]Yes. -> have acmator study to suppert that.
[9370]& t in. faet. one of our. biaqgest stivlies.
[9372]That roises the issue, if Il miaht say,
[9374]Toqusto wank to knew asia matter of
[9376]Have we resolved the cuestion of whether or not the
[9378]i Aeronav aarees to the releas: of nN secand covert antion naner
[9380]aAcreemonkh annarantiv reached before that thers
[9382]covert action raner and that vas on Chile?
[9384]status of necotiations now to releace the
[9386]The one tants talking ahout. s
[9388]e@ another ‘Intailed earner on a covert action
[9391]There wna a paramilitary varer on Laos
[9393]which the Acenev vould like us to release and Lhey are now
[9395]view toverd rarmittina us to do so.
[9396]mn)
[9398]hias, What ahont the Indonesian
[9402]aot Pied,
[9403]And ble mene on Greace?
[9405]hee,
[9409]“There is a classified record that will
[9411]ea | tianneart this, cemmant Thess edit onob be a nnkbte recerd. but
[9412]. : |. : -
[9413]a4 {fo vey vera khde (hare rea anbboan Pest oat gi dn our obher
[9415]ffs yporenene.
[9416]“4
[9418]HW 50955 Docld:32423509, Page 129 -
[9420]SECRET
[9422]Woes i oe
[9424]— TOP
[9426]|
[9427]|
[9428]|
[9429]|
[9431]|
[9432]|
[9438]LO
[9440]V1
[9442]eve,
[9444]a
[9446]HY 50955 DocId: 32423509
[9448]Me 4A : an 1
[9450]a -
[9452]Senator Huddletber . Centa we rake gene bind of
[9454]' Mr. Pader. Senater. on tha reaute of the Indonesian
[9456]known
[9458]overation. the '57- operation is widely but it was a
[9459]failure. We want to suercrt che Sumatra vebels and thay failed
[9460]ane so did we,
[9461]This was when Pane eas shot down.
[9462]7 Senator Huddle top.) Pack on nada 44, this term sheep.
[9464]fin is that auffictanr?
[9465]Mr, Aaron. We bedoa leer discussion of that. aa a matter
[9466]cF Fact. UelLl he oui he bhe Commi thee | °
[9468]Senator Huddlastan. (Sterilized ecutrpmant,
[9470]what doag.
[9472]Bhar. mean? . ne a
[9474]Mr Aaron. Thatia ocoudipment whase oricdin vannok bea
[9476]hraqced,
[9478]Seratar Mathias.  Mhns, is the editor, fF hore that
[9480]wTwoOY
[9482]enone of these howevers thet-ore used to headin sentences with
[9484]will be put Following the first verb instead of at the beginninc
[9486]of the santence,
[9488]At of pace 12 ( think vou should wake that a
[9490]the tan
[9492]little stroncer, effectics Concregsional oversichkh. boo, if
[9494]thay have the cuts too ves ir. 1 maan ar thay dent use it,
[9495]Pe isn't worth anvthine.
[9497]Mr oddtenava.  Ucrator would vou maya be out Rhert
[9498]Janes fy thope: oe
[9500]hnatar Mabhin PET sev dane abet bt. though
[9502]TOP SECRET
[9504]MORAY PAUL,
[9506]Page 130
[9510]l bee ua 4.8
[9511]il.
[9512]i
[9513]|
[9514]h
[9516]Po pose de titre ta he a fiers 4 spore Tiber
[9518](OO Mr. Aaron. Tf toers ts the will to exercise ik.
[9519]Senator Mathias. Mecause vou now. vou head into the
[9520]4 Pracutive Pranch and there's an omotional anneal with the flaq
[9522]vwayine and the Star Srancted
[9524]end ‘all that ki It ta
[9528]7 T feantt think, we oudht to dornnolay the t
[9530]Ropomere Fat that vou hold the oeaecr of the
[9531]| :
[9533]| iho an easy mower ho exercies
[9536]la Senator Huddleston, ALL right.
[9538]1 | recammendatian number. Loon nade bt,
[9540]Me. Naron. rode ke Rid
[9542]ye Tim aek
[9543]pa qj rtcommencdetioans Te has sone be mater
[9544]a dust simnis make ane poink with ~radard &
[9546]Raat ds that in aivind the Nrenev
[9548]is to do,
[9550]some of the things that it
[9552]6
[9554]eoyert onerations. the concent vould ke
[9556]banner beina playad on the Capitol
[9558]ure | re
[9560]a cha areor
[9562]kes some courane, and
[9564]act that, just the
[9566]noureée, that jt makes
[9568]yeady for
[9570]Roler ho speak tog theses
[9572]werk Cen bis. I'L
[9574]a the firsk one,
[9576]ard
[9578]gneluding the conduct oe
[9580]I
[9582]to use thea vit
[9584]|
[9585]|
[9586]|
[9587]|
[9588]-
[9589]|
[9590]|
[9592]wedting _ down |
[9594]‘ ra | devine of trying toa alse sek Ferth some of the rurnose? of
[9595]lo: these miesions that the Ancncy sonld be aiven and ip that
[9596]. 1 a
[9597]on || context the ceneral iniunebhions af --
[9598]| The first reconmenation sould axdag to he sup t smented
[9600]oo Woby the srecifies that feller.
[9601]i Mr. Bader. Votrogh the tarenace
[9602]uy . .
[9606]er, Cavmithes that the vec eb cecasb oo ebinn
[9608]: , a RE ET
[9609]\ TOP SBCRE
[9610]: WON oar
[9612]HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 131
[9614]‘dao glean hers bois
[9615]Poa the * the
[9618]Panett o and not a routine mirces dere, Tt is alten Intended to
[9620]i
[9621]i
[9622]| | oo .
[9623]2 | underline the Committee resition that covert action aaain in
[9624]the excentional nature showl he used only when other means
[9626]will not do.
[9628]And then it goes nn te tath about that there shonld be
[9630]t
[9632]|
[9633]i)  senenavnee- tor. neatne that there is both careful and thoughtful
[9634][sm thoroudh consideration oF tho qeneral nolicies qovarning
[9635]pe | aeuert actian and that thea) nraredures insdvte narkicinpation
[9636]af naltev makars at the highest lavel and be masked be
[9637]ine accountability.
[9638]11 What we'ra intending bey de here is to underline there
[9640]‘os |i variones noints. the exceptional nature!) fall aceeuntebi lite,
[9642]io theranuth. evstematic ravice.
[9646]va | Mr. Tnderfurth., "he first ts lectslation authorizing
[9647]- the conduct of covert ackion:d mokas olear. That seams to he
[9648]16 | sort of present legislation. ‘where is none. |
[9649]-| Mr. Aaron. It showld sav, recommendation lL. thatthe
[9650]re | lerislation authorizied the cerduct of covert actions make |
[9651]so | clear that dts purndse is to resnond. -
[9652]ae Mr. Maxwell. The proflem is there isn't following from |
[9653]2] the charter. section in the First sat of recsommendakions, the |
[9654]on | tacommendation other than the very early one abont NSC that
[9655]ax fla charter for the CTA atthardcdng the Fallowing “umctinngs sheule
[9656]oem os i
[9657]cq | be cearn and that becaugs phere is nok phat recemendation
[9658]ee dn this seetion, oT bhie™ Mhet ta reoomenk Ge apmrersdabe,
[9662]i YOR SECRET
[9664]1 . . af
[9666]| : Vee mA .
[9668]50955 DoclId:324235039 Page 132
[9670]9
[9672]my
[9676]HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 133 -
[9678]|
[9679]I
[9680]|
[9681]i
[9683]|
[9684]i
[9685]i
[9687]-ankhorized to conduct. if vor will, esnicnaqe and. that it also
[9689]attempted here to lay eut for the Subcomnittea's consideration.
[9691]_after the semicolon, there may ka a more artful way of saving
[9693]aekoun a richaniem, and there mov be a more artiul war of
[9697]Mr. Tnderfurth., ‘ache faust addon Lina that that charter
[9699]should state that and then «9 into this.
[9701]Mr. Kirbow. Are vou recommending a revision of the
[9703]1947 Act to change the charter of the CIA or to make it clearer
[9705]‘or more snecific. or da you want: to simply indicate here that
[9707]the Committee récommends that hv statute. covert operations
[9708]or covert action he authericed?
[9710]Mr. Tnderfurth. T thin it should all he in one niece
[9711]in the omyihns ledislation.
[9713]Mr. Baron. Yes. ¢€ think that in fact in the heqinning
[9715]ana also in the section it simnley savs that. .the CIA is ~ $
[9717]ouaht to antharivze. It alee sudcests that thev'ro authorized
[9718]. ~
[9720]to conduct a certain amount of counter-intelliqeove.
[9722]Mr. Rader, Wa can ar new to nace 49 where we: have
[9723]Mr. Maxwell, dust.one comment on 48. The first clause
[9725]that. lecisiation should make sure thak mrocedures be Caveleped
[9727]within the Executive Pranch.
[9729]fe that desioned te do that by lecislatien or is that
[9731]2 recommendation? We made some racommendations by statute to
[9733]seydne Shak,
[9735]the, Parter. Pericp aos ean queko am from thoab ovrccedurer
[9737]FOP SECRET
[9741]ot me ee eerie orate Amy et een
[9743]+ cea TAREE ee pana REY “rere rena
[9744]ee teas
[9746]eect ee A A AA I ER RT, et
[9748]HY 50955
[9750]a&
[9752]15
[9754]with using ALL political assassinations. Ee bacomeas a bit
[9756]Chard at that stage to he Tinted,
[9758]woo PA RY Ba Bloc : {
[9759]131 |
[9761]Mr. Miller. You can dn this in various wavs hv requireme
[9763]‘of reporting to the Conaress. - |
[9765]be develoned within the Pyalnthwe Branch. , | |
[9766]|
[9767]|.
[9768]‘Mr, Badar. On pada 4g, ton of Ehe vaqe, we come to the |
[9769]a, : |
[9770]hard problems here, and this’ section is addressed to the quest oe
[9771]oF serific prohibitions en varieties of covert action. . It 1
[9772]notes that the Committee. has afer its investigation of alleged
[9773]assassination attencts. tae cocamnendea a nt= tite to forbid
[9775]such. activities.
[9779]What we nut hefore khe Coumittes for consi eration is|-
[9781]a ataff list of other nogsibtea -racommendations. You can |
[9782]the first bracketed one where thare i? sovie dispute as to 4 |
[9784]whether that shovld be Bo inesluded is all no Litienl agaassinations
[9785]That ig to move from foreiaqn leaders to all political
[9786]assassinations, and we can anime back ta that. The others you
[9787]can see are clear, and we vould veleome-comment.
[9789]Senator Mathias. “what ahout religious assassiations?
[9791]Mr. Bader. That seams to be mart of the problem, Senato
[9793]an
[9795]Mr. Navis, The Wvenukive Ordar bas all political
[9796]assassinations. Theyvare showl of us.
[9798]Senator Tnddlesten. tno the hill that we ‘ave rropared
[9801]Mr. PAdar. TR Toes neha thak bhe fs Nrrlar does
[9803]TOP SECRET
[9805]owen PAUL
[9807]en a -
[9809]Bocld: 32423509 Page 134
[9811]ae SOO ge me : owe
[9813]kate ng a nten further.
[9815]Senator Huddlestren. ‘tio. wa introduced an anti-assassina~
[9817]1
[9818]|
[9819]* J tion bill, didn't we?
[9820]| . : . :
[9821]i Mr. Bader. Yes. what sncke to foreicn leaders.
[9822]|
[9824]] 7 . - . + : . . . +
[9826]RoW ; Mr. Maxwell. Tre bill itself, I think, would have covers
[9827]a
[9828]i , : . :
[9830]& |) foreign individuals as we!l as, because leadership was so |,
[9832]hroadlv defined.
[9834]A Part of the nrahiem (an the recommendation -that came out
[9835]Hl . : / . . : ,
[9836]a at the stafé level was thoah eanvthing that ve sa: about non-
[9838]vad Feretan leaders or domestic assassinations cr the Jibs implied -
[9842]7 that the Committea had investiaated alleaaktions about that, and
[9843]poienk tae that sowe erédencs should be given toa charges that
[9844]|
[9846]iy i) the Aqenev had heen inyelved In athemnts. to assascinate peopla
[9848]|
[9850]i:
[9852],
[9854]7
[9856]|
[9857]in the United States, and thak wags the nreblem of trving
[9858]te word snme nrohihition that vent bevond the bill that has | 7 |
[9859]Already been introduced hv the Sbnaters.
[9861]Mx. Kirhow. Or of soma lesser wilitary-type individual
[9863]ap i in a foreicn country. vou know, assassinating a sarazant is
[9865]nretky batl as far as he is concerned hut ib would not necassarily
[9868]: - t
[9869]en | be volitical. . ; . |
[9870]fa Senator Huddleston. Wak about meace time? Should that: |
[9873]oo | he in there?
[9874]as |i Mr. Kirbew. fo kbink ene bid) distinanish 7 betcuan peac
[9875]ey di . : oe ae
[9876]eg | hime spt war Rime Ua betes,
[9877]pd anh F Toqucetion whetter cn nab baying dene that before. that
[9878]Mra AP i : Fie 2 oreb havin nea that
[9879]“HH
[9880]|
[9882]TOP SECRET.
[9884]Net” PAE
[9886]HW 50955 BDoctd:32423509 Page 135
[9888]“ : ‘jl 4
[9890]Q
[9891]| ;
[9892]14
[9893], |
[9895]i
[9897]® yorohibition at all.
[9898]{.
[9900]ey i
[9901]|
[9902]7 |
[9903]q
[9904]|
[9905]af
[9906]a
[9907]yy . Mr, Kirbow. ft!
[9908]La
[9910]Far emohasis
[9912]Me. ftrhow.
[9914]anain.
[9916]Senator Mathias,
[9918]Mr. Aaron,
[9920]| cory bhes thine. Wes
[9922]aint ehvau ereens “hes arldab
[9924]oa |
[9925]|
[9926]|
[9928]“HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 136.
[9930]s
[9932]Mr. Kirhow. Thai ¢
[9934]| assassination activitica
[9938]ro)
[9940], iL ather than nolitical Jaaders.
[9942]soryrper beD ae in
[9944]a
[9946]reo od{dnit find any avidenne
[9950]eetitical assassinations ncet tna he disrodced Farther ag a
[9952]Mr. Maxwell. Perhans jf the Senators think it is
[9954]desirable to say somethin, tha eataffcaould qet lanauage which
[9955]> od would not imply in anv wav that the Committee has found credibls!
[9956]evidence that the CIA was eandaged in activities hevond this.
[9957]Bit which would reflect their desire not to: their desire to
[9959]make alear that the CIA conte nat do that.
[9961]moray. isnit
[9963]finting that it
[9965]maceansatilv based an wranndeined dq the onach.
[9967]Senator Mathias. This vranckitive bat that's all right
[9969]Me cronld werk on the landuace and thow it.
[9971]That about the cecend ene?
[9973]I'm not culte clear on this first one. We-
[9974]wilt draft seme lanquaia that makes clear that we did not
[9976]Find anv avidence of anything other than ovhat welyva found?
[9978]that would
[9980]indicate that they had eecaetsd in thesa other tyres of
[9982]nye thak we vould oreldbit it anvway.
[9984]Tn .that. though, we eonsidered
[9986]and hak omaqar ar entannionver in ane of, tp the her tth sitorakion
[9987]a : PONS : .
[9989]SobhaAbl te can mates big clear
[9990]Vober ced leeeracse Tobia bh Obak Ee
[9992]FOP SRORET
[9994]Wott PAUL
[9996]|
[9997]|
[9998]|
[10001]4 ™ byt ae | Wee ee th
[10002]i '
[10003]i ; ; ; oo . . .
[10004]Po ese ceneeirny Fhat Tho not tettiente that wa had found som: avidence
[10005]f . . ;
[10006]2 i that we hacl- just not revealed,
[10007]| . : . “ : °
[10008]Roi. Mr. Bader. Perhans if would he helnful. Senator, but
[10009]4 jpak the same time the Admintstratian hes coms forward. with
[10010]5h | lanquace of all political assassinations. vhich seems to me
[10011]|
[10012]A yj ronda indicate that it's nek a cmestion of a. Finding.
[10013]i
[10015]anator
[10017]Phe HLL) bhak we
[10019]Myo Kirke
[10021]fou
[10022]C .
[10024]‘T think vow
[10026]than and the
[10028]|
[10032]Lo
[10034]|
[10035]4
[10037]| Jeadalation
[10038]Mary
[10040]recommen tad
[10042]- FAthonots, a
[10044]continues
[10046]Mr. Maxwe
[10048]a
[10052]- t
[10053]ya aor En
[10054]vo | Seaard to permit
[10056]EO
[10058]if
[10060]Sepehor
[10068]Seaton.
[10070]Pyytr Ceyard
[10072]the
[10074]felyes
[10076]eeatoten
[10079]his
[10081]|
[10082]8
[10083]_
[10084]7
[10086]HW 50955 Docld:32423509' Page 137
[10088]Huddlestan,
[10089]eou ld
[10091]Aaron.
[10092]Following
[10094]eat
[10096]Li.
[10100]bayve suomi
[10102]we And osapt?
[10104]te
[10106]oo
[10110]mn
[10112]2
[10114]Wiamber 3
[10116]its
[10118]Farhis
[10120]te ko
[10122]‘to endorse that.
[10124]Tt
[10126]Mv shabuba
[10128]at
[10130]ting any moti
[10132]nedledlestan,
[10136]Ahyeust dang
[10137]TOP
[10138].
[10140]yeebicratton
[10142]could cay
[10145]Trt.
[10147]ad. Lt pothiner Lae
[10148]mate GQ gotpaert obhat
[10149]ehh on te thie, a
[10150]nes. to gumpeark onac
[10152]‘ing the Cromaitbaa
[10156]aueh-ackivitias.
[10158]the
[10162]Ryjenloa
[10164]a en oN
[10166]ination
[10170]dag heath?
[10172]Pe wa
[10175]Thay mag mak Ma any
[10176]SECRET
[10180]Aq PAUL
[10184]Tha
[10186]cdamogoraticoal dy
[10188]Tilyer
[10190]se outht to recommend passaqe of
[10192]lecislation.
[10194]race mended it
[10196]rent of sych
[10197]‘hae niready
[10199]Committee
[10201]Conmitteea also endorses
[10203]ders Order in
[10205]elected
[10209]dom &
[10210]pai b tary and
[10212]ce Tey meallal.
[10214]~t assassination
[10216]7
[10217]t
[10218]|
[10220]Wi SRA te ed ae |
[10222]oe ceatmmart both,
[10224]Mr. Aaron. Would! that tuclude sunnortingd the Uxecutive
[10225]2 y Ovder provision being in the lav or just supnorting?
[10227]a Senator Mathias. “ni the Presidential. -- why don't
[10229]Mr. Kirhow. We enforse the concent.
[10231]ry My. Davis. If they're not different.
[10233]. . -
[10234]we he ambiquous? . oo ; |
[10235]Mr. Titenora. There te a recermendattean here that other |
[10237]i) tee of couerk action which shanld be hanned, nd since we'ra
[10238]pa i talking ahouk a statnte which we have submitted which bans. |
[10240]| . . -
[10241]“44 lat we would then han hv statute. recommend hanning by stakute
[10242]| |
[10244]fall nolitical assassinations which weild enlarie the President's, -
[10246]ee wanted to
[10248]Meeontive Crdar into a Jaw and. then tha rest of these. just
[10249]assuming fer the sake of arcvumant thak the Commit
[10251]vould ban all peacetime nolitical assassinations.
[10253]|
[10255]_ he : . o . .
[10256]| dea that, i* vonld he a recemrandation for ledislation which
[10257]|
[10259]Mr. Kirhow. The staff could work on that lanavage a-
[10261]Vittle and aet it back te veu, ; oe |
[10262]T think we know whak ven want to do here, don't you.
[10264]|
[10266]|
[10268]Ho
[10271]|
[10273]Ne. Aaron. Ves. To think we can mato a fix. juek make
[10275]the point that the noliticsl oseassinations noint is putting
[10276]lin law what the Executive Order is as prenosed be the Tseontive
[10278]Order ero aa pravitcad Iwo the ‘resukdve Order.
[10280]Sanaber Huaddlectoan UpP right te's then te overthrow
[10282]: | TOP SECRET
[10284]Vite, PPL
[10286]HW 50955 DocId:32423509. Page 138 -
[10288]HW 50955
[10290]r bf ba? apg Be €S
[10291]| #2 48" oe RS
[10292]OF i 136
[10293]Ri
[10294]t
[10295]i . : :
[10296]' danoeratically elected ccusremants
[10297]e ‘Mr. [nderfurth.° ? “isaht mantion that Cyrus Vance went
[10298]* |ibeyond this. We said al} interference in the electoral processe
[10299]1 lof-a country should be kanned. which soes heyend this.
[10300]Ai ; _ :
[10301]fof Senator Mathias. ferhans that was some subliminal
[10302]46 | influence on ma. but I've writtan down effarts to subvert a
[10303]’ j.walid electoral process.
[10304]; | . ' . .
[10305]2 Tt seems to me thabouhat da hetter because when you
[10306]2 lralk ahony -laverthrowina ep dlapocratically elecke:' government,
[10307]. | 7 .
[10308]al .
[10309]TO Ged knews what that is. And To don't enor that voulre really
[10310]| : : . .
[10311]fL panting ta know what a valid electoral crocess is. The republic
[10312]_ i ; \
[10313]LP of Venice, where they have a very Limited electorate. alected
[10314]ye] these. But nonetheless. it vas their constitution and it
[10315]14 wasn't very democratic. . Wnt whatever it js, and this would be
[10316]rs fi in line withoc Georda Cannen's testimony also.
[10317]lA We finally have acknevledced that the Sovist Union has
[10318]| er .
[10319]; _ . ;
[10320]jy || a leaislature of sorts and we acknowleadqa their electcral
[10321]9 | oracess. although we don't think much of dh.
[10324]Me, Culbreth. Would cour uga of hha term subvert, would
[10326], i vou intend to include within that preventing the CIA from
[10328]any rind of nolitieal er cronadanda in connection with the
[10330]ae pelactiens in another country or any kind of supnort to one of
[10332]2 | thea candidates that we cichb think was oa hetter-cendddate?
[10334]9
[10335]eA. | Mr Mirhow  Uebl ovo eatd rsendpa of 4
[10336]A oe! ;
[10337]on | Mr Cilbreth. verk comld ven not subvert the results bs
[10341]‘Tor SECRET
[10343]sree - AAU
[10345]32423509 Page 139°.
[10349]7
[10350]|
[10351]|
[10353]t
[10354]|
[10355]|
[10356]a
[10359]ee MA a
[10361]i
[10363]i
[10364]| |
[10365]| iafluencing the carryines ok oF the electien?
[10366]ae | Senator Huddleston. Vell. we subvert our own elections
[10368]A jevery time we run.
[10369]Ff to overthrow democratically elacted governments .
[10371]“y i] process.
[10373]qo f elected aqovernment?
[10375]ra | sense we could actually list them,
[10377]ya || country. _ a
[10378]se Senator Mathias. This would be Cannon's advice.
[10380]Senator Huddleston.
[10382]La NE?
[10384]: and it would be valid 3% cemeanes in that country
[10385]i
[10387]on
[10388]x
[10390]notimn aoa dietater.
[10392]TOP S ECRET
[10394]YOR PAUL
[10396]HW 50955 DocId:32423509 Page 140
[10398]yd Senator Mathias. ~The oricinal, suqaestion was efforts |
[10399]I mean both |
[10401]of these -- efforts to. subvert the results of a valid electoral
[10403]PR. _  ° Senator Nuddleston. 7 think that's atl viaght.
[10404]| a .
[10405]g { Mr Inderfurth. in oa sOnRa what is a.der oeratically
[10407]it Mevnihan savs that an the U.N. there are 24,
[10408]Mr. diceneva. What ahbouk, whak is a valid electoral”
[10409]communist
[10411]iq] J mrecess? Whatever it is in sach country? To mean the
[10413]jn | have one party and that's a valid eles toral process
[10415]{ think ve have to *scommite
[10416]the risht of another countre to have their niepenral
[10417]attemptine
[10418]bo cironmvent theix established ‘constitutional nraceseos,
[10420]Mr. Maxwell. The onalifiar in the Senater ' s proposal
[10422]should be
[10424]i
[10426]7 vas demnoratie, go that at daast in sema wey dk rastrics
[10427]i
[10428]i
[10429]i
[10430]| Senakoar (hadedbes coon Sahel ware rninaga on. wpre ohies
[10431]t
[10433]|
[10434]|
[10435]|
[10436]|
[10437]7
[10438]|
[10439]|
[10440]|
[10441]-
[10443]|
[10444]|
[10445]|
[10446]|
[10448]co Ff | oO 7 138
[10450]a)
[10453]Mr. Miller. What cases wonld.this »rohibit? In our
[10454]|
[10456]ackions in the vast it weld erehihdit Chile. Tran ---
[10458]cae of the OWile oreration.
[10459]Mr. Miller. Guatemala,
[10460]Senator UWuddlasten. Te crenstd neko mzohifbit Andola..
[10462]Me. Asron. Th woud nrobihie sone thins that transpired
[10464]Mylo Midber. Dh wouted peebibpt fhe oactiens in thaly. .
[10465]} to
[10466]ea
[10468]| oo ten! k Lf ye) T8 4s set
[10470]| souddn sb LR. ane Pranet
[10472],
[10474]Sepakoy Tact lector. Pb Agepends an the berm anhyverston.
[10476]bade . : oe . 3
[10477](Ve wart frst agsiekinea one 6 ide,
[10479]17 4 .
[10480]Me Tdybow.  Aessiehing oboon cleetieon durivg
[10482]the gleetion precess dost net aneear te be bla doberk of
[10483]the Commi fbese
[10485]Me Aaron, Towouldatt chink thab whak is uoine on in |
[10487]PorhucaL t poye inewopab that Le would come under this
[10489]meohihitien.
[10491]Me, Miller. Sa dh wovld roalty affeak the socre Lika
[10494]rye
[10496]-Uvan, Guatemala. and chidn,
[10498]it a
[10499]a . an
[10500]hie  Raran., And Tadenania,
[10501]' Py ay
[10502]. oA
[10504]Sengtar daddleston, Cabar
[10506]ete Rh PII
[10508]HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 141
[10511]8
[10513]5
[10515]2
[10517]pera)
[10518]2]
[10521]22.
[10523]a moment, we don't want t: insert then, using your language,
[10525]Committee has toa address. Th would he a verv short Teash.
[10527]Me. tnderfurth., fob dueh ta hea devil's adverate for
[10529]‘Sunator. the efforts to influence or subvert the results of ~
[10530]‘a valid electoral process? .
[10531]Senator Mathias. ‘Vhat may be ten shert acleash. | |
[10533]“Mr. Tnderfurth. Mee TJ think that's a question the
[10535]enator Huddleston. ell. there ars “ifferent vavs to
[10537]influence and there may be a nrorer wav tn infliosnee.
[10539]Sea SS a ae me apna etent
[10541]Mr. tnderfurth. Tf there were a coroner. then verhaps
[10543]one could define the imrrorer wav. influencing bv passing Foney.
[10545]covert nronaganda. and that bens of thing. — - 4 |
[10546]Me. "irbor, Tf the Committe s intention is after
[10547]the nerson is elected and vou don't want te. prevent that kind
[10548]af nergon heaind nit inta officer hy any maangs, -then you do. it I
[10549]: |
[10550]here. |
[10551]IF veu ao not intend as a committer to nreclude using
[10552]| the nress or using other Sittin to influence the outcome of |
[10553]the election, then we ahantd be solid on that and gtay out
[10554]oF that area. But it's am t7 the committer to dacide. —_ |
[10555]. ; . i
[10556]tee, Bader. This lanauace eneaks ta subverting the |
[10557]results, nok inflnenci na the outceme .
[10558]Mr. Kirbow, And he nays that WAS his intent.
[10559]Gevaker ie llesten thie doasg rab ree luda, from
[10560]sob ednne invs}aed as me Vid du That y, \
[10561]TOP SECRET |
[10562]‘ Wann PAUL. | |
[10564]HY 50955 Docld: 32423509 "Page 142
[10566]pete : rt She. a oe | ide
[10568]H i
[10569]| :
[10570]i t
[10571]i t
[10573]' Me Rader. Om dey Cork yeat
[10575]oa _ Senator Huddlesten, That's nok a subversion of the
[10577]al
[10579]erocess, that's an assistance.
[10581]'
[10583]4 oo 9 - Senator Mathias.) that’ narticination in the nrocess.
[10585]Roy - My, Inderfurth., Phat about after on election but prior
[10587]6 to the formation of a coalition sovernment?
[10589]7 Senator Mathias. * Tosould think that wonld be subverting.
[10590]ep i Fo ven aqet in there and jsav J ell. we are wo ried ahout who
[10592]7 | |
[10594]Oo
[10595]9 fi theda nedule have elected,
[10597]; ,
[10598]ame J didn't know it loon General Hala until) this afternoon
[10600]ry but To wae ayare that same American official had made a >
[10602]jal) threat te Mitterand thak he weutd ke in trouhle if ho were
[10604]. 1 -
[10605]eos ' ; ways
[10606]jad atenked Prine Minister and attermntad to brine acme radical
[10608]ya leftiets into the Trench Cahinat,
[10610]LS Mew dh seems to ma that thatiid a threat to-subvert the
[10612]t
[10614]| Pranch electoral nrocess and tf in fact we carried out that |
[10616]threat T think that that would he prohibited hv this language.
[10618]a
[10620]activities. Tn other words, if Ceneral Wadia said thet vrivataly
[10622]hut: didn't mean it in terme of covert action, he just wadd the
[10626]j
[10628]|
[10630]q
[10632]| oy .
[10634]| .
[10636]| “Mr. Aeron, T take dbo the vord subvert ares to covert
[10638]oe) | Tnited States qovernment will: ~~
[10640]no ly Senntor Mathias.
[10642]Stakes or the Secretaryin® Skate on tho Secretary of Ms fenge
[10644]oF
[10645]. . ; t . . - . . ’ . q
[10646]ca | mick vere wed) occtando up in ferent mk bin -eleviston cameras anc
[10648]oc | mich eae Veab. $8 ues iat a eeroumiek dem the Crone Cabtnet
[10649]cant “Oo ; ;
[10651]> SECRET
[10653]Ree PALE .
[10655]|
[10656]_ |
[10657]To think the President of the mnited
[10659]fo TO
[10660]| ns
[10662]HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 143
[10664]BW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 144
[10666]é ayo a we 5 a a. en ‘i
[10668]|
[10670]=| telling vau richt now. |
[10671]T don't think that’s mechthited.
[10672]» | 7 Rut 4f wa shadow men oround and antch h
[10674]ad | blsekmail him. or anvthing of thati sart «+
[10676]t
[10677]bovis under bkhe parliament) sor meeher van tee hin
[10679]2 inaTo'es searats. then there's apined to be hell to
[10683]nay..and we're.
[10685]in s
[10687]that this
[10689]cmourk
[10691]the roi. &
[10694]P| Mel Bader. «That Nes 2 ark ackian oroojeak.
[10695]9 io. " Geyatar thntdlegban.  Vheralqone oeakion
[10697]] .
[10698]i .
[10699]YO fowhole mater aa af juternad interuankian dm another
[10700]VW (OMe. Kirkhow. Senator. chabever ven aay here
[10701]po yoke he ane oF the highass cenrdderatioius cicran he
[10702]i . i
[10703]Ta | Comittee.
[10704]|
[10705]ra | Seavetor Maddlestrn T food thane era kes
[10706]is |Ureatrtationa and nometrdinn eu our interfereues in
[10707]16 |} internal oneration of the oaevernmeant.
[10708]i My. Raron. The next ons. snprort for bis he
[10710]1a j ether internal seourttyv -- other seaurdbe cron
[10712]ra lan torture.
[10714]7
[10715]20 ‘ . Senator Huddleston. hap tt owe bawe Tee
[10716]ey i bhat oP Peak? |
[10717]of Mr. Raron: Thera cre suondman be resarding
[10718]| aia. Now this is enen foratan ala, Welre telictes
[10719]assietante procera,
[10720]the VWctenenya . Ube cb sean tomate recpsaa ves nt
[10722]VOR & SECRET
[10724]Wwoeerery mm PAGEL
[10726]re
[10728]Tadvialstion to
[10730]which enqacde
[10732]G& fheoemnronisind nersonal nosition and use the nhetoqraphs to
[10734]h
[10736]neoepes to
[10738]one
[10740]2 rome
[10742]the
[10744]Farcian
[10746]nheuak aqovert
[10750]Ls
[10752]Ve
[10754]|
[10756]|
[10758]Hg A RL he. |
[10760]Mr. firbow. Which cues in toebure .
[10761]Senator Mathias. “on fomake a seinantic suagestion here.
[10762]. ' wo .
[10764]that we trv to bring this in line with the lancuade in the
[10766]Manstitution. cruel and paueral runishment, because I think
[10768]this really teflects. if ibis aetna. ho mean anythind, we ought
[10769]to be reflecting our naticnal ethic in both oF these. both
[10771]in snhverting the results sf a valid electoral process--
[10773]| Senator Huddlacten, aes vou ae’ inte Lhe question
[10774]ae sanital minishment.
[10776]af the things that the Forkers in encaced in is before a ;
[10777]nerson has heen dudaad to be crak thy oh ae Trams. someone whip
[10779]is ming tartured in an inkervodabion.. Fhak ne rer vouta not
[10782]Me: Maxwell. There!s snethar mrobiem anc that is one |
[10783]ke subject to cruel and reusval ranishmen, but thea evstematic.
[10784]violation ef human riakts ar seme otker
[10785]Senator Mathias. That's a phrase. though. with which-
[10787]Amerdeans have heen farsi liar since 1787. and it seems. to me
[10789]jt has some valine.
[10791]thoudht to the way we treat oriseners ino this-eountry.
[10793]Fenator Mathias. Yer. Po othink thet te ao problem, I think:
[10795]1
[10797]H
[10798]Senator Hart, Ube rrobtlerm is we den'tt aive serfous |. |
[10799]|
[10800]‘hind. |
[10802]thatts ao rrohtem in thin chet:
[10804]Sareane ance eatel oof tin time khat kha Thedian rayments
[10805]wepo ocyrored oven tava fhe Poridana dea rita pit the time and
[10807]Pe Pe toe eeyrem Phe differsrnes le ve. ag
[10809]nike ge iakea abot .
[10810]{OP SECRET
[10812]VOCERPD oy OALEE Lo
[10814]HW 50955 ‘Docld:32423509 Page 145
[10816]around an
[10818]fed
[10820]|
[10821]Our own 3
[10823]Bu
[10825]KR | thie is a
[10826]8 Put
[10829]i
[10830]ty
[10831]9 My
[10833]ia | thyak hare va talks aborl
[10834]i
[10836]wl Forces.
[10838]ia {he femainder of:
[10842]that
[10844]sc
[10848]1B
[10850]LO at torture
[10851]1? “Myr.
[10853]standards
[10856]eheuld
[10858]re talking
[10860]n ivedvertent,
[10862]19 i
[10863]val wa have s
[10865]4
[10866]Tooreaching al
[10868]tandards,
[10869]LIL. think
[10871]t i st
[10873]n opportunity
[10875]the
[10877]Senator lluddlesten. Je!
[10883]“Kibrhbow.,
[10885]tia the poliat af the
[10886]ALA Anon
[10888]about
[10890]and whatnot.
[10892]Aaron. Can
[10894]think that Cha
[10896]then when °°
[10898]that's
[10900]Bey i.
[10902]poipek.
[10904]withouk,
[10906]. ay tl
[10908]l
[10912]ele eyed
[10914]“1
[10916]Bivgetey
[10918]numpart
[10920]yak
[10922]and
[10924]Sat
[10926]i
[10928]sneak
[10930]ct Ley
[10932]ort of that Sdiid of
[10933]eo it is difficult to asverkain whe
[10934]. al . . —
[10935]ot covernmenk or whether the dntarn
[10936]fod . _
[10937]eo | very Fracmented among the milir
[10938]‘pn || Wave vou. vhether these internet.
[10940]de - -
[10941]on il Pir fiche nc sfrege Toh
[10942]| a Sy
[10943]|
[10944]vo fry i
[10946]HY 50955 Doold:32433509 Page
[10948]146
[10950]i
[10951]are shown
[10953]hrinas
[10955]Linkace
[10959]For
[10961]sentence
[10962]counkry
[10963]mower t
[10964]avkhieritv
[10965]ont.
[10967]raises an
[10969]situation
[10972]tha k
[10973]Us
[10974]| b o
[10978]offer
[10982]hy r 2
[10989]ab
[10990]ry anc
[10992]securdhe
[10996]HORET
[10998]me
[11002]tad.
[11005]eich,
[11007]robles
[11009]meaner
[11012]On Pe go
[11014]interes
[11017]is
[11019]security
[11023]ct
[11025]we
[11027]don'
[11029]ty
[11031]frderhe
[11033]ethical
[11035]t live up to
[11037]retribution.
[11039]notwithstanding that
[11041]shotubedn |
[11043]anvodyed
[11045]ye Oe:
[11047]es
[11049]aid
[11053]in
[11056]for
[11058]Fowgen
[11060]the
[11062]shi re
[11064]state:
[11066]Coy
[11068]Yi
[11072]interne |
[11076]‘of exnosures
[11078]ire)
[11080]ras)
[11082]mola
[11083]ane
[11085]a
[11087]7 Mhtherwise
[11089]wager
[11091]PU.
[11093]iskitution.
[11095]f suqqest
[11097]security
[11098]aenky He
[11100]1 thy maybe
[11102]a country.
[11106]ane
[11108]“le and
[11109]23? where
[11110]on ce the
[11111]ich are
[11114]what
[11116]Yon,
[11118]lice are
[11121]a: ie te Be hg MAL . ai
[11123]1: "oo My. Aaron. I think fhisg is the aucstion. It aces to
[11125]* i the point not of assistance to the government in general or
[11127]% | even covertly, but assistance to these particular forces, and
[11129]that I.think does narrow it dawn toa the problem.
[11131]“an
[11133]Senator Huddleston. hat kind ‘of support do we give. the
[11137]I
[11138]a security forces?
[11139]Mr: Kirhow. Trainin.
[11141]'
[11142]| co, ;
[11143]pT "Mr, Aaron... We have In. the past. ve enn give tham
[11144]a . . : :
[11145]Oo | technical, training. electronic. devices.
[11146]10 tl Mr. Kirhow. A whole spectrum exennt for U.S. military
[11148]11 4 Sunvort.
[11150]ee) ; “Mr. diGenova. Some -f the nreprictaries were used 9°
[11152]for exactly that purpose. toa rrovide training and secure
[11154]nrocuremeant and sale and loan of davices -hich ultimately
[11156]|
[11157]|
[11158]|
[11159]+ . .
[11160]1s | found theix way into the hands of foreian torturers.
[11161]We certainly don't denrivs the Agency of any legitimate
[11162]source of intelligence becauss they themselves claim that they
[11163]“oes gee anaaded. in this activity knowingly and don’ want
[11165]oho.
[11167]20 | “They nay they don’t want: anything tn do with khis type
[11168]“94 of ackitity and thev sav thay don't want to he involved with
[11169]| internal police forces that condnat this type of activity.
[11171]net The. have said recently that thev have discont/nued
[11173]aa || thoss.sorts of Us heen, aQ on erehibi tt why banning Lt
[11175]an | enems bo wa ho say Fine. oor saree with ve and we wilh do it.
[11176]“| TOP SECRE -
[11178]R T
[11179]| Lhe & PAUL.
[11181]HW 50955 Docld: 32423509 Page 147
[11183]HY 50955
[11187]mn)
[11189]a
[11191]9
[11195]19
[11197]20
[11199]pa
[11201]oar
[11202]bee
[11204]i a : ~ th we A Kw . Lbs
[11206]to have a finding-on thir aint.
[11208]3
[11210]Mr, diGenova.. That's the next issue I was going to
[11212]raise. We don't write anythina shout this anv. ntace in the
[11213]‘report.
[11215]Senator Huddleston. noes the Agency. have a directive
[11216]ime) that effect that they have discontinued or are discontinuing
[11218]that we can refer to and sav we apnrove of it?.
[11220]Mr, Inderfurth.. Xs eed an in the Chile covert setion
[11221]etudy there is discnssion of Liaison with the current Chilean
[11222]internal security forces and that the CIN vas saving, well,
[11223]wo vant to talk to them hut “a don't vant ho ha involved: i
[11224]wha b they're doing and we wank to trv fo aston then From their
[11225]orankices of torture and the reat,
[11227]“So mean that's something we can look te asa basis
[11228]for our findings.
[11229]Mr. digenova.. where's alan a parallel with the drug
[11231]thincd,
[11233]Mr. Aaron, Senator. shall wa bry to sea tf wa man.
[11235]es ta vork. th the
[11237]come back with some Vanduase that tri
[11238]Conatite@tienal. votat? Tonust ¢av tC nersonally havea little
[11239]difficulty figuring put hor * ve rurn this around ko try to
[11240]Aovly to what tha police Ag?
[11241]Senator Natoins. hebig tNink abaut it,
[11242]Gonater “Huddleston. Lebla “tet hae at de dy. “That's a
[11244]TOP SECRET
[11246]Wann RAUL
[11248]Docld: 32423509 Page 148
[11250]|
[11252]Ho 0 Mr Aaron, What eccors ta me is thet it would Se j
[11254]|
[11256]eacide bat i . aa » rea Lee & a a . 14h
[11258]! .
[11259]i whale two hours anda hslf.
[11261]J 1
[11263]HI oo .
[11264]2 to. dWhereupon, at 5-90 p.m... the hearing-‘in the ahove
[11265]: ) 1
[11266]po ; _ - a
[11267]‘mentioned matter was recessed, to reconvene at 7:30 o'clock
[11269]4° oom. of the same day.)
[11271]ia
[11273]TOP SECRET.
[11275]Wann & PAUL
[11277]|
[11278]|
[11279]|
[11280]|
[11281]|
[11282]i
[11284]|
[11285]|
[11287]WW 50955 DocId:32423505 Page 149 |