[1]157-10005-10225 | 2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992 |
[3]cs |
[5]Date:10/01/93
[6]Page:1
[7]JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM
[9]@ i | IDENTIFICATION FORM |
[10]AGENCY INFORMATION
[12]AGENCY : SSCIA
[13]RECORD NUMBER : 157-10005-10225
[15]RECORDS SERIES :
[17]AGENCY FILE NUMBER : R891
[19]ORIGINATOR : SSCIA
[20]FROM :
[21]TO:
[23]v
[24]TITLE ;
[25]TESTIMONY /REPORT .OF PROCEEDINGS WITH EXHIBITS
[27]DATE : 08/12/75
[28]PAGES : 90
[30]SUBJECTS :
[31]TESTIMONY OF HOUSTON, LAWRENCE RE: CIA AND CASTRO
[32]EXHIBITS ARE INCLUDED
[34]DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT
[35]CLASSIFICATION : T
[36]RESTRICTIONS : REFERRED
[37]CURRENT STATUS : P
[38]DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 10/01/93
[39]OPENING CRITERIA :
[41]COMMENTS ;
[42]BOX 248-02
[44][R] - ITEM IS RESTRICTED
[46]HY 50955 Docid: 32202415 Page i
[48]Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000
[50]WARD & PAUL
[52]i
[54]410 First Street, $.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
[56]HW 450955
[58]10
[62]12
[64]13
[66]14
[68]15
[70]16
[72]17
[74]18
[76]19
[80]going up to try and halt some aspects of the grand jury
[82]“18
[84]TOP SECRET
[86]Niarchos' ship captains named Katopodes brought a libel action
[87]I believe it was, against Onassis for some letter he had written
[88]about some activities of Katapodes, I can't remember the
[89]details now.
[91]We didn't know where this was leading. So this was in
[93]the Supreme Court of New York State, and so I went to a fellow
[95]I knew in the U.S. Attorney's office and asked him if he
[96]could keep track of how this suite was developing to see if
[97]it was leading into some of the connections we had, par-
[98]ticularly with Niarchos.
[100]And he got some of the pleadings and some of the pre-
[101]trial evidence --
[103]Mr. Wides. But you don't recall any contacts between
[105]the Agency and the Justice Department resulting in Mr. Yeagley
[107]proceedings in New York growing out --
[109]Mr. Houston. It strikes no valve.
[111]Mr. Wides. Let me ask just one more question in this
[112]area and then we will move on to the document I asked you to
[114]look at before we started.
[116]Mr. Maxwell. I have just one other question.
[118]Mr. Wides
[120]Docld: 32002415 Page 2 | TOD GEC RET
[122]Prone (Area 202) 544-6000
[124]WARD & PAUL
[126]410 First Street, S.E., Wasnington, 0.C. 20003
[128]HW 50955
[130]10
[134]12
[136]13
[138]14
[140]15
[142]TOP SECRET
[144]19
[146]femployee. And at the time Mr. Joost and the other fellows#”
[148]4
[150]RCIA employees of the station at Thailand in 1951.44 ey were
[151]allegédy to have been involved in disposing of fom
[152], A
[154]fEther one or
[156]in 1955 this w&@,brought to the attentigf’
[158]the efforts, among
[160]of the affair?
[162]Mr. Housto
[164]Mr. aw Do youknow if any action@was taken earlier
[166]F. a
[167]than the#time in 1955 when Mr. O'Donnell fits
[169]w it first came to my attention. But when it did, toate
[171]Docld: 32702415 Page 3 TOP SECRET
[174]Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000
[175]be
[177]10
[181]12
[183]13
[185]WARD & PAUL
[187]14
[188]15
[189]16
[190]17
[191]18
[193]19
[195]al
[196]22
[197]23
[199]24
[201]410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003
[203]25
[205]20.
[207]TOP SECRET
[209]20 |
[211]that I recall were going on out there. And Ithink one of the
[213]who had soffe knowledge of it.
[215]“4
[217]|
[219]| |
[221]__ the best of my a a T put |
[222]4
[224]O was much concerned
[226]this together ane talked to Allen Dulles yi
[228]about it. He sai, I think we ought tofreport that to
[230]ey,
[232]Justice.
[234]And I said, therejis no particdlar problem, because
[235]there is nothing we can d@ about J because there is no crime
[237]against the U.S. that I can® ina” in this situation, it is.a
[239]fication. I suppgve the relations with MAT at that time were
[241]So, I & it to -- I
[242]can't vonehoor-- probably to the Assistant Att@rney General,
[243]Criminal¥/Division, who ever it was.
[245]They said to the effect, thank you, that is ite. There
[247]is nothing we can do.
[249]Mr. Wides, Was there any discussion of the poss®bility
[251]HY 50955 Docld: 32907415 Page 4 TOP SECRET
[253]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[255]10
[257]11
[259]12
[261]WARD & PAUL
[263]13
[265]14
[267]15
[269]16
[271]1?
[273]18
[275]19
[277]20
[279]21
[281]22
[283]23
[285]24
[287]410 & S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003
[289]29
[291]TOP SECRET a
[293]tof giving information to the Thai authorities so that they,
[295]cod decide whether to exert jurisdication? g
[296]} Mr. Houston. My recollection is that the ind#éations
[298]BN
[299]were that, the Thai authorities had as much informagon as we
[300]did. I ac remember to the contrary, but a hoe the
[301]information wé Y
[303]Mr. Wides.
[304]to talk to some of
[305]knew about the situati
[307]Mr. Houston.
[309]Mr. Maxwell. ye Bn taken against either
[310]of the CAT employees?
[312]Mr. Wides, , ywas the other one. And
[314]he was recalled.
[316]he two persons
[318]“charges or allegations wer
[321]I remember Joost being a proklem, but I
[322]i . ea,
[324]member what the outcome was. And Dennis Fay
[326]Mr. Wides. Did you have another question.in this area?
[327]Mr. Maxwell. I just wanted to say, if you wanted to
[329]continue, you said there were three cases that eliminated the
[331]HY 50955 Docld: 92202415 Paqe 5 TOP SECRET
[334]pH
[336]Prone (Area 202} 544-6000
[338]10
[342]12
[344]WARD & PAUL
[346]13
[347]14
[348]15
[349]16
[350]1?
[351]18
[352]19
[353]20
[354]21
[355]22
[356]23
[358]24
[360]410 2 Wasnington, 0.C. 20003
[362]25.
[364]TOP SECRET
[366]22
[368]kind of cases which CIA had with Justice, and the referrals,
[369]and you had gone through one. And I wondered if you wanted
[370]to go through the other two.
[372]Mr. Houston. All right.
[374]The second one was quite an interesting one. If I give
[375]it in too much detail, excuse me.
[377]Mr. Maxwell. Off the record.
[379](Discussion off the record.)
[381]Mr. Maxwell. Back on therecord.
[383]Mr. Houston. The staff officer in Italy all of a
[384]sudden disappeared from his post, and there was indication
[385]that he had with him a considerable sum of money, something
[386]in the nature of $30,000, I can't remember the exact amount.
[387]This was promptly reported, and he disappeared into the blue.
[389]The %& started looking into it. And I believe we
[391]sent people over to try and look into it, and found that
[393]there had been a serious family problem between himself and hig
[395]wife.
[396]Finally, through some sort of source in Mexico we got
[397]word that this fellow was near Mexico City, and he passed word
[399]Yeethrough a lawyer that he had written all the
[401]operational details of what he had been engaged in in Italy,
[402]which again were very sensitive, sealed them, and put them
[403]in a vault which only thelawyers could get at, with instruc-
[405]tions to his lawyers that if anything happened to him, no
[407]HW 50955 Docld: 422909415 Page 6 TaD GEC ROET
[409]Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000
[411]10
[415]12
[417]WARD & PAUL
[419]13
[421]14
[423]15
[425]16
[427]17
[429]18
[431]19
[433]20
[435]21
[437]22
[439]23
[441]24
[443]41a . 2 Washington, D.C. 20003
[445]25
[447]HY 50955 Docld:
[449]TOP SECRET
[451]The SEC, as a result has raised some questions with Justice
[453]29
[455]between our justice and our statutory problems. This is
[456]before Justice now.
[458]Mr. Wides. Is there a file in the OGC office generally
[459]regarding, not necessarily every one, but many of your --
[460]which would contain many or most of OGC contacts with
[461]Administrative agencies over the years?
[463]Mr.Houston. No, because they weren't -- there probably
[464]is a substantial file on relations with Internal Revenue.
[466]But those were to a large part either working out our own
[468]tax equations on our own personnel with cover problems which
[469]you probably know about, or the CAT situation, or Southern
[470]Air.Transport, and not interferring with IRS prosecutions,
[471]although several times we were involved -- here is the type of
[472]case I guess you are talking about.
[474]What is the fellow out in the Philippines -- I think his
[476]rm Sowell LI, ‘ae who had one of the biggest tax assess-
[478]ments made against an individual made against him, I think,
[480]$2 million? And Gieecomiie very definitely tried to involve
[482]us in his defense. There was some connection with @@gne ue
[483]in the Philippines, you couldn't be in the Philippines without
[484]some connection with them. And yet gave IRS the full in-
[485]formation, and said, don't bother with us, we are not
[486]concerned.
[488]Mr. Wides. What about such things as the contacts with
[490]2202415 Page 7 Tap GEC RET
[493]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[495]10
[499]le
[501]13
[503]714
[508]15
[510]16
[512]17
[514]18
[516]19
[518]20
[522]22
[524]m
[526]a
[527]oO
[528]a
[530][2]
[532]2
[536]a
[537]x
[538]3
[542]23
[544]24
[546]41lOF,
[548]25
[550]HY 450955 Daocld
[552]ANVIL?
[554]32202415
[556]TOP SECRET
[558]55
[560]Mr. Houston. It was a memo of DITEL's that I saw.
[562]Territories.
[564]Mr. Wides.
[566]I think it was dated after I left. TI saw it in draft after-
[568]ward. It had to do, I recall, with operations in the Trust
[570]In-other words, the first category of issue
[572]that I mentioned?
[574]Mr. Houston. Yes.
[576]Mr. Wides.
[578]Page 6
[580]With regard to MH MUTUAL, which is a topi
[582]He was ANVIL, a staff official bu
[584]TOP SECRET
[587]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[589]10
[593]12
[595]WARD & PAUL ©
[597]13
[599]14
[601]15
[603]16
[605]1?
[607]18
[609]19
[611]20
[613]el
[615]22
[617]23
[619]24
[621]410 SS Washington, 0.C..20003
[623]25
[625]HY 50955 Docld:
[627]TOP SECRET
[629]Houston. Not entirely a proprietary.
[631]who that is,
[632]disclose.
[633]Mr. Houston S\ can't do that.
[635]ould we refer to h
[637]Mr. Wides. How in terms of his
[639]ce
[641]position if we were t Yaing to ascertaing#is identity, or
[643]if we were negotiating w the Agency, as it were? What
[645]was his title vis-a-vis them anagement? Was he the
[646]project officer?
[648]Mr. Houston. He was epeainly -- let's call him the
[650]project officer for MM ANV
[651]Mr. Wides. And thai’ was for
[653]particular person?
[655]He was there fr pretty near the
[657]Mr. a A . i
[658]start until he retired by,about two years
[660]i
[662]go, three years
[664]I would say,
[668],or the seventies.
[669]Mr. iildes. This is not John Keaney, is i
[671]Mr #@Houston. No.
[673]Mrg Wides. Was John Keaney's role more in teégn
[675]2202415 Page 9 TOP SGCECDRDET
[677]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[679]10
[682]12
[684]PAUL
[686]13
[688]WARD &
[690]14
[692]16
[694]16
[696]17
[698]18
[700]19
[702]20
[704]el
[706]22
[708]23
[710]24
[712]410 ,,B.. Washington, D.C. 20003
[714]25
[716]HY 30955 DoctId:
[718]TOP SECRET
[720]Wides.
[724]Ag to get access to materials
[725]pe ,
[727]on it. Without taking yous heGugh all of its multi-faceted
[732]aspects, which would take sofiel
[734], er making other investments to assist the pens nr
[736]bx,
[738]2202415 Page 10 TOP SECRET
[740]Prone (Area 202) 544-6000
[742]10
[746]12
[748]13
[750]WARD & PAUL
[752]14
[754]15
[756]16
[758]17
[760]18
[762]19
[764]20
[766]21
[768]22
[770]23
[772]24
[774]410 oo Washington, 0.C. 20003
[776]25
[778]HYW 50955 Doctld:
[780]TOP SECRET
[782]Mr.
[784]person you were reife
[786]Mr. Houston.
[788]And they made at
[789]ms to invest in stock of
[791]i .
[792]her extensive oontractual
[794]And we did.
[796]Mr. Wides. Do
[798]ments were made an,
[800]22702415 Page 11 TOP SECRET
[803]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[805]10
[809]le
[811]“
[812]3
[814]a
[815]a
[816]a
[819]3
[821]13
[823],
[825]14
[826]15
[827]16
[828]17
[829]18
[830]19
[831]20
[832]el
[833]22
[834]235
[836]24
[838]410 . 2 Washington, D.C. 20003
[840]25
[842]TOP SECRET
[844]Mr.
[846]Houston. For a while
[848]by this outside counsel. It wa EA LOO happy a relationship,
[850]not because of his fault... honest
[851]best. But we took too long ecommendations and
[852]often lost a market by t gh our own in-
[853]ternal controls.
[854]So, finally, w gone to him
[855]hat is, so we could show that@we had
[857]i Mr. Houston. Let me guess at around 1969, something
[859]NW 50955 soorasd 202415 Page 12 TOP GECRET
[862]Pnone (Area 202) $44-6000
[864]10
[868]le
[870]WARD & PAUL
[872]13
[874]14
[876]15
[878]16
[880]1”
[882]18
[884]19
[886]20
[888]21
[890]22
[892]24
[894]410 . S.€., Washington, D.C. 20003
[896]25
[898]HW 50955 Docld:
[900]TOP SECRET
[902]230
[904]Mr. Wides. Was he a consu
[906]Mr. Houston. A member o
[908]Mr. Maxwell. Mrs. Thunberg?
[911]Mr. Houston. Yes.
[913]Mr. Wides.
[915]board was what,
[917]Wides. What was the relationship between yourgelf
[919]ané’the banks and the insurance companies, the CIA?
[921]2202415 Page 13 TOP SECRET
[924]Pnone (Area 262) 544-6600
[926]10
[930]WARD & PAUL
[932]12
[934]13
[936]Bwe needed our own in-
[937]14 :
[939]as)
[940]16
[941]17
[942]18
[944]19
[946]20
[948]al
[950]22
[952]gr S.E., Washington, O.C. 20003
[954]23
[956]they protect the investigation in case it got into sensitive
[958]24
[960]a
[962]rs
[963]o
[967]25
[969]“HW 50955 DocId: ports Page 14 Te. DS GEC RET
[971]Phone {Area 202) 544-6000
[973]10
[977]12
[979]WARD & PAWL
[981]13
[983]14
[985]15
[987]16
[989]17
[991]18
[993]19
[995]20
[997]21
[999]22
[1001]235
[1003]24
[1005]410 . 3 Washington, D.C. 20003
[1007]25
[1009]ginal contact, and the
[1011]primary.
[1013]large this arrangél nt worked extremely well.
[1015]their investment?
[1017]Yoularly. We kept some of the money on deposit with th
[1019]TOP SECRET
[1021]So that was indemnification?
[1023]and
[1025]Mr. Hous Complete indemnification. And
[1027]were talking about @ benefit of
[1029]Mr. Houston. Both of investment portfolios
[1031]their investment
[1033]manager, who were most cooperativ i what they were invest-
[1034]ing.
[1036]Mr. Wikes. And what was contact in the
[1037]Agency during that period fdr’ the insura companies?
[1039]Mr. Houston. I went
[1041]And we had some offshore assets that were ostensibly
[1043]HW 50955 Docta: 42202415 Page 15 TOP SECRET
[1046]Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000
[1048]WARD & PAUL
[1050]410 . 5§.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
[1052]HW 50955
[1054]10
[1055]11
[1056]12
[1057]13
[1058]14
[1059]15
[1060]16
[1061]17
[1062]18
[1063]19
[1064]20
[1065]21
[1066]22
[1067]23
[1068]24
[1070]25
[1074]TOP SECRET
[1076]got the normal\@rime rate on our deposits,
[1077]es
[1079]they particularlyNin the field of Eurobonds had fa
[1081]. SY
[1082]advice, and we also
[1084]New York who had inve
[1086]Eurobonds. So far as I Ke they did know the Agency
[1088]VA
[1090]was involved, but they gave¥advice i a best interest rates
[1092]“4c,
[1094]Was a highly specialized
[1100]Mr. Houston.N
[1101]+ and the only thing I knewAwas from
[1103]about Suydam Compan: ‘
[1104]v4 6
[1106].personal knowledge going back to a trust my sistes
[1108]érn Air Transport told me that he was continual ¥g\
[1109]Ve 2N
[1111]bein’ fasked by contact with Suydam and Company. And he sa‘
[1113]2202415 Page 16 TOP SECRET
[1116]Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000
[1118]WARD & PAUL
[1120]410 . = Washington, 0.C. 20003
[1122]HW 50955
[1124]10
[1125]11
[1126]12
[1127]13
[1128]14
[1129]15
[1130]16
[1131]17
[1132]18
[1133]19
[1134]20
[1135]21
[1136]22
[1137]23
[1138]24
[1140]25
[1144]f
[1146]. Plantations ongoil?
[1148]TOP SECRET
[1150]that ye only one he knows, was the Guaranty Trust.
[1152]was ay else,I don't know about it.
[1154]Mr
[1156]Mr. Houston.
[1157]to bring up their ideas
[1158]stock field, until more
[1160]consulting the economic
[1162]ment policies.
[1164]Mr. Wides.
[1166]cs
[1168]tow ype you differentiate that from economi@, intelli-
[1170]A
[1172]gence except that it would be --
[1174]Houston. Because our investments, except fier the
[1176]corks, were almost entirely in U.S.investments. aAnd¥
[1178]202415 Page i7 TOP SECRET
[1180]Prone (Area 202) 544-6000
[1182]10
[1186]12
[1188]13
[1190]WARD & PAUL
[1192]14
[1194]15
[1196]16
[1198]17
[1200]18
[1202]19
[1204]20
[1206]el
[1208]22
[1210]t, S-E., Washington, 0.C. 20003
[1212]23
[1214]24
[1216]HW 50955 DoclId:
[1218]25
[1220]TOP SECRET
[1222]65
[1224]interest was in the foreign field. And I don't remember them
[1227]decisions as distinct
[1228]by outside?
[1230]Mr. Houston. There
[1231]papers ~-
[1232]the board
[1234]been touched on. I don't
[1236]recall it
[1238]yen use.
[1239]easary to
[1241]function.
[1243]In other/
[1245]@ project officer. On the design and organizational
[1247]22 e 5 Page 18 TOP SECRET
[1249]Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000
[1251]10
[1253]11
[1255]a
[1257]13
[1259]WARD & PAUL
[1261]14
[1263]15
[1265]16
[1267]17
[1269]18
[1271]19
[1273]20
[1275]al
[1277]22
[1279]We S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
[1281]235
[1283]24
[1285]410 First St
[1287]25
[1289]HW 50955 Docld: p202415 Page 19 - a PB eetrD ET ; . |
[1291]TOP SECRET -
[1293]Ht looked very complicated. In operation it was qui
[1295]Te was handled really as one entity with varioudl aces
[1297]w\And the complications of those whereby A cainine
[1299]your companies
[1301]directors, and things, and keeping your letterhea ?straight
[1303]for your writing the different companies.
[1305]Mr. Maxwell. ‘~ there other sources of funds, |
[1307]profits made by propriataries in stock or bond transactions that
[1309]went back into the investment fund?
[1311]Mr. Houston. They Le all go#into the central in-
[1313]vestment fund, and in the init
[1315]market broke there were some capay
[1317]the investment policy went 7 and
[1319]of deposit, where for a whWle you were geet ing -~ I think we
[1321]Mr. Wildes. You mean the capitalization of paj icular
[1323]companiegfagainst insurance?
[1325]Houston. Exactly.
[1327]Mr. Wides. What about proprietary profit, was that
[1329]TOP SECRET
[1331]Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000
[1333]10
[1335]11
[1337]12
[1339]]
[1340]3
[1342]a
[1343]8
[1344]fe)
[1347]3
[1349]13
[1351]14
[1353]15
[1355]16
[1357]17
[1359]18
[1361]19
[1363]20
[1365]21
[1367]22
[1369]23
[1371]24
[1373]410 eB Washington, 0.C. 20003
[1375]25
[1377]HW 50955 sooras ees Page 20 TOD GECDET . |
[1379][
[1380]ey 1 that term?
[1381]8
[1382]3
[1383]- ouston. No.
[1384]3 2 ‘
[1385]3 5 Let usSeget one thing straight. The. certifigate of depo-
[1386]& 4
[1387]5° Mr. Widesi'§
[1388]6 | Mr. Houston
[1389]7
[1390]8 by a U.S. company.
[1391]9 Mr. Wides.
[1392]10 tions of a foreign country’
[1393]Mr. Houston.
[1395]believe there were
[1396]4 12
[1397]2
[1398]a I can't even be sure of tha.
[1400]large of subsidiaries of
[1401]3 14
[1402]15 their subsidiary bonds#
[1403]16 Mr. Wides. Thank you. ss
[1404]Mr. Maxwell., I wouldlike to go thegush some of the
[1405]18 material in the Olsen case. And I have marked as Houston
[1407]Exhibit 5 the excerpts from the IG's diary which I showed you
[1409]19
[1410]. before. /
[1411]20
[1413]v
[1414]: 21 (The document referred to was
[1415]fe}
[1416]é marked Houston Exhibit No. 5
[1417]z 22
[1418]W for identification.)
[1419]eo _
[1420]rd 24
[1421]s
[1422]2
[1424]25 ra
[1425]HW 50855 DocId: Leozass Page 21 TOP SECRET