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[39]SSCIA
[40]157-10014-10125
[42]MISCELLANEOUS RECORDS OF THE CHURCH COMMITTTEE
[44]07-M-31
[46]Document Information
[48]SSCIA
[50]03/10/1976 , ‘
[51]78
[53]SSCSGO, METHODOLOGY
[54]COMMITTEE BUSINESS
[56]TRANSCRIPT
[57]Declassified
[58]1B; 1C
[60]Redact
[61]03/22/2000
[63]CCBOX 324
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[72]AGENCY
[74]RECORD NUMBER
[75]RECORDS SERIES
[76]AGENCY FILE NUMBER
[78]AGENCY INFORMATION
[80]SSCIA
[81]157-10014-10125
[83]MISCELLANEOUS RECORDS OF THE CHURCH
[85]O07-M-31
[87]ORIGINATOR
[88]FROM
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[93]DATE
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[96]SUBJECTS
[98]' DOCUMENT TYPE
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[102]CURRENT STATUS
[104]DATE OF LAST REVIEW
[105]OPENING CRITERIA
[106]COMMENTS
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[110]66 68 4e 68 a8
[112]DOCUMENT INFORMATION
[114]SSCTA
[116]03/10/76 .
[117]78
[118]SSCSGO, METHODOLOGY
[122]COMMITTEE BUSINESS
[124]TRANSCRIPT
[125]TOP SECRET
[126]REFERRED
[127]POSTPONED IN FULL
[128]01/05/99
[130]CCBOX 324
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[150]1 . FOREIGN AND MILITARY SUBCOMMITTEE MEETING
[151]2: | eee
[152]3. | Wednesday, March 10, 1976
[153]; - a oe : —— a
[154]5 | . ; - : United States Senate,
[155]6 , , _ Select Committee to Study Governmental
[156]va | Oo . - Operations with Respect to
[157]8 . oe Intelligence Activities,
[158]9 a a . a Washington, D. c.
[159]10 7 The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:45 o'clock.
[160]114 p.m., in Room S-407, the Capitol, ‘the Honorable Walter dD. a
[161]. 12 | Huddleston presiding. | —
[162]> 13 ||. Present: - Senators Huddleston (presiding), Hart of
[163]14 ||. Colorado and Mathias. | i | |
[164]- . i
[165]1S: Staff: William G. Miller, Staff Director, and David»
[166]“16 ‘Aaron, Joseph diGenova, Lynn Davis, William Bader, Elizabeth
[167]“a9 Culbreath, .Charles Kirbow, Rick .Inderfurth, Pat Shea, Elliot .
[168]1g || Maxwell and Al Quanbeck, Professional Staff Members,
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[204]frequently do, say, let us reserve. this for the permanent
[206]all the information we need.
[208]working all right under , the set of regulations.
[210]TOP SECRET 7
[212]And then the question is whether or not there is a prohi-'
[213]bition on printing in the English language.
[215]Mr. Bader. And as I heard the consensus this morning,
[216]we would not move: to that recommendation ° ‘for a prohibition.
[218]I did_ not hear whether on the distribution this would be by.
[220]law, though | I took it it was to be by law, though I. can be
[222]corrected on that. I don't) think we addressed that this mornin
[223]. Mr. Kirbow. Mr. Chairman, on these that we considered
[224]to be rather. -- that we have a fairly light record on or that
[226]we are not ‘too sure what the future holds, one of the members
[228]“that I rode over with on | the car - suggested that perhaps. inf those:
[230]KO
[232]instances we could recommend fairly strongly whatever we want
[233]the followon people to do to ensure that the recommendation
[234]does not create havoc within the Agency or does not leave the’
[236]rights. of citizens unprotected.
[238]But that is not a cop out. It is something that you
[239]oversight committee or for whatever other group. We may have
[241]Senator Huddleston. Let them make the determination whether
[243]or not it-should be a statute.
[244]. t . .
[245]Mr. Kirbow. Determine whether in the law whether it is
[246]|
[248]Mr. Bader. Mr. Chairman, may I say in this instance in.
[249]the publishing trade there is no lack of record? The evidence
[251]TAR CLARE
[253]“to
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[286]Senator Huddleston. ‘I call the Committee to order.
[287]Mr. Aaron. . r believe ‘Bill Bader had the temerity: to
[288]summarize where we stand.
[290]Mr. ‘Bader. Mr. Chairman, where I. think ‘we are at the:
[292]moment is. taking the three major issues before the Subcommittee
[293]in the order they were presented, ‘and discussed this morning,
[295]the first being the academic issue, and as I heard the Subcom-
[296]mittee this morning, then -I will have another go at. the
[297]options, give enough options in the option paper and bring. it
[298]back before the committee for a further look before we go gn. 2
[300]Senator Huddleston. By Friday. | |
[302]Mr. Bader. By Friday, without / question.
[304]I think by this time we will all have -- we will try to
[305]include. a. . positive. ani that is to. say,. to. approve’ if not.
[306]applaud. the . expanded . efforts. of FRD to. undertake these activi- |
[307]ties, or at .least .to endorse .them.
[309]Now, going to the second was the covert use of books and .
[310]publishing houses. We discussed two recommendations: one whic
[311]I believe here the Committee has agreed to, and that is a
[312]prohibition on the distribution or subsidy of any books,
[314]magazines ‘or other publications not attributed’ to the CIA in-
[315]|
[316]side the United States.}
[318]|
[320]Senator Huddleston. I think we can all accept that, can't
[322]we.
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[350]and inquiry into it has: ‘been thorough, and I think we know this
[352]12 |
[354]_ how we are moving to --(r would ‘also reiterate that in our.
[356]ice SECRET | 4
[357]| | _
[359]well. There is no dispute from the Agency.
[360]“Senator Huddleston . Well, is the law inconsistent with |
[362]the statute on. the information service?
[366]Mr. Bader. It is the same thing. I would recommend,
[367]Mr. Chairman, that this would be by law, by statute.
[369]Senator Huddleston. .On the publication.
[371]Mr. Bader. On the publication.
[373]. Senator Mathias. I would support that.
[376]Senator Huddleston. r think Gary Hart would also, so 1
[378]think we will make that ‘recommendation, that this one on the -
[380]. . a , . . ae Boe
[381]academics is the one we are. not sure of..
[383]Mr. Bader. . That? ‘Ss ithe one we would go forward with, and
[385]session the other night, I took it as agreement that the
[387]recommendation by statute the CIA should be prohibited from.
[389]making operational use of all educational and cultural -.
[391]grantees of all U.S. Government sponsored programs, this was th
[393]issue’ which was raised of government funded. programs such as
[395]the Fulbright: program. 7
[397]‘senator Huddleston! And that's either already a regulatio
[398]or a directive or something to that effect.
[399]-. Mr, Aaron. Certain categories.
[400]Mr. Bader. Certain categories.
[402]Mr. Kirbow. That is brand new ground.
[403]TAR CEE.
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[409]1 . Mr. diGenova. The John McCloy exceptions’ to that rule, they
[410]2 || are the only ones that are protected.
[412]3 _ Mr. Aaron. “That justifies Charles' view that there are
[414]4 some similarities between Ford Foundation and Government
[416]5 sponsored activities.
[418]6 Mr. Bader. Where our discussion was left before lunch
[420]7 {| was on the question of the covert use of U.S. journalists and
[422]8 || media institutions, and as it was laid out, it was indicated
[424]9 that. the CIA's intended internal prohibition on ‘the use of the
[425]10 media extended to the internal prohibitions on the use, opera-
[426]ll tional use of individuals, ‘American and foreign, who were bos
[427]412 accredited to Ametican media. organizations, |
[428]eg “13 : As I heard it this morning, what we were discussing and
[429]14 moving to was to extend that prohibition to ‘cover all American
[430]15 individuals and media | organizations, and ‘that the question then
[431]“46 was whether this would be recommended to be something done in’
[433]“497 law or a recommendation, or. an insistence, “it you will, to the.
[435]18 Agency that it further amend ‘its “internal directives, its
[437]19 50-10, to put all media personnel, American media personnel on
[438]20 || the prohibited list, and that is I. think where we were.
[439]91 Senator Huddleston. I think that's an accurate statement.
[440]22 | That's where we were. .
[441]23 7 I had expressed a thought that 1 thought that it ought to
[442]te! 2A be expanded to include all, but we should hold off on the
[444]25 statute business for the time being.
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[448]TP SECRET 6
[450]1 Senator Mathias. My role here seems to be the Devil's
[451]2 || advocate. | | _
[452]3 fe 7 Senator Huddleston. Good.
[453]4 | Senator Mathias. There is no question about the writing
[454]5 American press or the value in print domestically. Maybe the
[455]6 role, any legitimate role that news men’ could, journalists,
[456]va writers could fulfill is available through the information
[457]8 agencies, USIA and groups of that sort. |
[458]9 | _ So does anybody know whether there is any real need
[459]10 | for allowing some latitude, which is not covered by situations
[460]11 that can be envisioned under USIA or other programs? é
[461]. 12° Mr. Kirbow. Well, Senator, the one that I discussed barlidr
[462]oY 13 that I probably didn't make my point well because no one |
[463]14 || seemed to have picked it up, is we do, by the words here, if I
[464]“415— understand Mr. Bader, prohibit an American citizen living in |
[465]16 Brussels and working for a local newspaper there from having 7
[466]“49 “anything to do with the CIA. — | |
[467]1a ll. Senator Huddleston. No we don't, do we?
[468]19 You mean -by his extension?
[469]20 _ Mr. Kirbow. Yes, sir.
[470]21 : Senator Huddleston. But not by --
[471]“p29 || Mr. -Kirbow. But wasn't that what you wanted to put in
[472]23 the law, that you didn't know if you wanted i
[473]‘ 24 Senator Mathias. ‘This is the point I wanted to raise
[475]‘os || here. ;
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[507]' Mr. Kirbow. That kind of relationship is something that
[509]we should stay away from because I. don't see any harm in it,
[511]nor do I think the record demonstrates. _any harm in it. I don*t
[512]see ~~ I don't know how in the world this person “doing that.
[513]taints thacminds of the American reading public, which is
[514]apparently what you are trying ~~ you're not trying to protect
[515]the newsman. You are trying to protect the reader who doesn’ t
[516]know that. what he's getting is being spoonfed to him from the
[517]CIA, and I don't know why we would be so concerned about
[518]protecting newsmen from working, or prohibiting them from |
[520]working, because I think they have a right to. do that as
[522]wee
[524]ye ae
[526]American citizens, just as they do to work with the Department
[527]of Defénse or any other agency «
[528]Mr. Bader. You would then rescind the “Agency' s standing
[529]prohibition? | |
[530]Mr. Kirbow. I just don't think you ever prohibit it in
[531]law. . | | | |
[532]Mr. diGenova. Are you talking out an affiliated,
[533]accredited journalist, because that's what -the Agency regulation,
[534]deals with. ‘It doesn't deal with an American citizen. It
[535]deals with an accredited person, whether: he is a foreign |
[536]national or an American.
[537]Mr. Bader. . To an American media organization,.
[538]Mr. diGenova. But that's not the example Charles gave
[540]you. a
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[577]Mr. Kirbow. Well, perhaps I misunderstand the extension
[578]that you, your full recomendation. |
[580]Do you want to go beyond where the administration is in
[581]their position?
[583]Mr. Bader. I am recommending to go beyond where the
[584]Administration is at this stage, to extend ‘the operational
[585]prohibition on hthe part of CIA to use American == americans in
[586]the media --
[588]Mr. Kirbow. Wherever located.
[590]Mr. Bader. Where they are using them undercover, at this
[592]stage, to the extent that it is a cover ‘proposition.
[594]pane, .
[596]Senator Huddleston. Even if they are in “foreign media?
[598]Mr. Bader. Yes, sir. | |
[600]Senator Huddleston. And even though all of their
[601]activities are related to foreign; they are not writing for .
[602]American news services.
[604]Mr. Bader. Alternately,’ they could be with American
[605]media organizations. .
[607]| Mr. Kirbow. Mr. Chairman, I don't think there is a single
[609]shred of evidence on our record that that is in any way wrong=
[610]doing or in any way: adversely affects the rights of American
[611]citizens. Clearly it will prohibit or could prohibit in the
[612]future the proper use of an individual. that could be essential
[613]to the intelligence collection processes of the CIA, and it
[615]singles out a specific agency which is not doing any harm to
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[622]1 the American citizenry, and says no, you cannot do this because
[624]2.|| you happen to be a secret organization.
[626]3 |. Senator Mathias. If I wanted to.do it, Charlie, I think
[627]4 I could work out a scheme. I would hire a prominent American
[628]5 || columnist to go and live in Paris, as Art Buchwald dia, for |
[629]6 example. | |
[631]a Mr. Kirbow. And to pick off his columns and run them
[632]g | in the New York Times. 8 | :
[634]9 - Senator Mathias. And run them in the Paris Trib first,
[636]10 | and then let the domestic press pick him up."
[638]ti. 00:é«M@«w Kirbow. | But if he's in the paris trib, that's ay .
[639]“Lb affiliated U.S. -- |
[640]a“ 13 ur. Aaron. © Well, suppose he writes for the Financial
[641]14 Times?
[642]15 - Senator Mathias. Well, you could work out an echo program
[644]1
[646]a6 | if. you wanted.
[647]uy | Senator Huddleston. Well, the basic point; instead
[648]us | of picking instances, it seems to me, is whether or not as an
[649]19 official policy of the united States Government we want an
[650]-20 institution such as the press with all it means and all it is
[651]21 supposed to be in. American with its constitutional provisions a d
[652]a9 whatever, to be subverted to the secret, clandestine operation
[653]“-.92 || that it can; Anytime we put any prohibition anywhere, we are
[654]as . 24 eliminating . somebody as a potential agent. You can't use
[655]a5 that as a guideline. -
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[662]~ 1 Mr. Kirbow. These people are not necessarily subverted.
[663]. 2 _, Senator Huddleston. I'm talking about the institution of
[664]3 ||the free press being subverted, not the individual. |
[665]4 | Mr. Kirbow. I'11 extend that one further. I don't gee
[666]5 how using them for cover, which has. no direct effect, like the
[667]6 example I-quess you gave, senator, of a vice president of a
[668]7 || bureau of some sort who has nothing to do with the writing or
[669]8 editing or ‘anything; he is the business head of the operation
[670]‘g | just like any other corporation. This thing extends to that.
[671]10 ; ' Senator Huddleston. He may have something do ° with the.
[672]41 | Selection of the , people who do write. oo . ¢
[673]12.1 Mr. Kirbow. Well, if you could give us an abuse that*we
[674]- | 1s are trying to correct, oF some reason for it?
[675]14 Mr. Bader. It's not a question of abuse, it's a question
[676]15 of the use, the operational use of an institution such as
[677]16 the press for operational purposes. |
[678]7 Mr. Kirbow. well, explain then, and perhaps I'm going -~
[679]18 explain the sanctity of. the press if dt is not ‘to ‘protect an
[680]49 uninformed reader from having his mind tainted by the relation~
[681]oo ship. What is the sanctity of the press as an organization?
[682]21 It is 5 not sanctity like the church and state. I just-don'
[683]22 || see the record for this. . . | .
[684]- . . 23 Senator Huddleston. Well, the Clergy and the press I thin
[685]a 24 || are institutions. | | |
[687]25 -° Mr. Kirbow. Well, I think the. clergy and maybe the
[688]| . TAR fer eT | .
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[715]but a businessman who happens to have elected going into the -
[717]business of running a newspaper or a magazine, to be singled
[719]-you should do it with the whole United States Government. I ae
[723]Or Secret u
[725]academic, like you say, that teaches the student directly,
[727]out and say you as a patriotic American are proscribed against
[729]doing any business, and if you are going to do it with an agency),
[731]don't see how we can single out the CIA and not single out
[732]military or FBI. |
[734]Mr. Aaron. Well, I think the domestic group will have --
[735]may well, have some :reconmendations regarding the FBI's covert
[737]V.
[739]use of American media.
[743]Mr. Kirbow. Well, domestic media, obviously.
[745]Mr. Aaron. f would! like to say, to take Charles'
[746]example of an American working for a foreign press, and what
[747]the problem is. I think’ the problem. is that you have two
[748]kinds of problems with the press. one is the fact, if it is
[749]operating domestically, if it is working for American media
[750]institutions, it is clear that they are subject to some:
[751]manipulation or at. least questionable manipulation, and there
[752]are issues in people's minds as to its integrity. .
[754]Now, the question goes beyond that to what about people
[755]who might be working for some foreign ~- American journalists,
[756]American writers or what have you, working for foreign media
[757]institutions. There you have a somewhat more extended
[759]situation. But it seems to me that what you have is the
[760]TAR CFepeyT.
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[791]‘of a clandestine intelligence organization.
[793]American people having the right to spy, somehow, and these
[795]a
[797]any real operational use that you want to preserve, and second,
[799]‘a difficult extension in that example, as well as the possibili
[801]TOP SECRET 22
[802]- po
[803]possibility of the American press getting discredited, having
[805]problems of being able to perform its normal functions in the
[807]world and performing’ in’ the United States because it is part
[809]Mr. Kirbow. Don't you think that's an individual right
[810]that a person has the right to exercise both ways, instead of |
[811]one way? | |
[813]Mr. Aaron. | Charles,. what I think I have told the
[815]Committee, . I have a real - problem with the concept of the 7
[817]prohibitions don't go to what people are allowed to do on ¢
[818]the outset. They go. to what the Government is allowed to Ago}
[819]“Mr. Maxwell. Well, bee s take a different kind of
[820]example. | |
[821]‘What would happen if in ‘some way -- and it! s. not, I think,
[822]impossible to imagine “ian American citizen was writing full
[823]time for the Communist Party paper in Italy or Portugal or
[824]France. = | | |
[826]Now, that, obviously would be covered by the example that
[828]Bill has provided as a prohibition..
[830]There are two questions. One is whether the person has
[832]whether it goes to the question that David presents, which is —
[834]the possible contamination of the American press, which seems
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[863].argument, because the argument about distortion of what goes ©
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[868]of distortion, the flowback problem in America,
[869]And the ‘second problen seems to he, with an example like
[871]that, is that it seems to ~= there: is very little stock in the
[873]on in foreign countries and people's perceptions is at the heart
[875]of the question of whether the CIA or any government agency.
[876]should be engaged in- propaganda, because it is quite possible
[877]the propaganda gets picked up in the same way, and the question~
[878]is obviously of line drawing: how do you want to draw the
[879]line, | |
[881]at strikes me that there may ‘be better. ways to draw the a.
[883]coe Abe
[885]line than the suggested prohibition that Bill has for any — ¥ —
[886]American, regardless of Leatus, or who they write for or what. ;
[887]they are doing. |
[889]Mr. Kirbow. By having citizenship as an American --
[891]Mr. Bader. Well, you misunderstood me. . I was putting out ;
[892]the various possibilities. | |
[894]Let's turn to the text for just a moment and maybe that
[895]will help. |
[897]First turn to 61. Let's try to get some idea of what the
[898]problem is before we get to the semantics of it. All right, - _
[899]just let me go through this, then'we'll see what is actually .
[900]being recommended here.
[902]I have confused you, obviously, by « giving a series of
[904]possibilities, not what the recommendations are. |
[905]TA A Fer ee.
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[911]~ 1 | “Ten U.S. news organizations and five U.S. publishing
[912]; 2 houses provide cover for CIA agents abroad. Four of the
[913]3 organizations do not know that they provide this cover."
[914]‘4 ' Then there are some examples. -
[915]5 | Mr. Kirbow. Meaning management. or individual?
[916]6 | Mr. Bader. Management. |
[917]7 Mr. Kirbow. At any level.
[918]8 ' Mr. Bader. At any level. .
[919]9 Mr. Kirbow. All right.
[920]LO | - Mr. Bader. Then there are come examples of the kinds of
[921]lil relationships that the CIA officer engages in intelligencd)
[922]‘12 ‘collection under cover as a roving international news corres-
[923]—_ .
[924]Y 13 pondent, a CIA officer under cover as a European representative|
[925]14 of an, American company while working asa stringer for a
[926]‘15 || United States publication engages in intelligence collection
[927]16 and covert action. In: this case the company | is aware of the
[928]17 CIA relationship while the publication. is not. Bona fide
[929]18 journalists who regularly provide: the ‘CIA with intelligence,
[930]19 some are paid regularly while others are not. In one case
[931]20'|| the journalist is apparently not aware that the U.S.. embassy
[932]21 | official to whom he is providing information is actually a
[933]22 CIA officer. 7
[934]25. Now, what the recormendation here on 64, or the bracketed
[935]’ — , of _econmendations ~~ and L 'm sorry. I created this. situation
[937]25 by giving- various options -- by statute the CIA should be
[938]TA LKEeAET -
[940]AW 50955 Docld:32493513 Page i7
[942]“10
[944]11.
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[974]prohibited from using American media organizations for |
[975]. fi: - °
[976]cover. That is the extent of it.
[978]What is the trouble! Joe?
[980]t
[982]Mr. diGenova. That seems to be somewhat -- that seems
[983]to-be a back-off from what the Agency prohibits as well. 'I mean}
[984]do you want to make a recommendation saying that the Agency's
[985]prohibition against using Americans who are accredited --~
[986]| Mr. Bader. No. |
[988]This is the additive. The recommendation here is to
[989]take the Agency's prohibitions which go to the question of,
[990]American and foreign journalists, accredited to american |
[991]media organizations, and extend it to what. is not covered under
[992]those prohibitions, which is the use of these American media
[994]- | .
[995]organizations for cover purposes,
[997]Mr. Maxwell. Is it/clear that people who are in media
[998]- b
[999]organizations are not accredited to those organizations?
[1000]Mr. Aaron. “IE they|were, then they would be covered.
[1001]i -
[1002]If they are. accredited journalists, then they. would not.
[1003]Mr. Maxwell. So the issue is whether individuals who
[1004]don't write -- | |
[1005]Mr. Aaron. But may: edit.
[1006]Mr. Maxwell. ‘But may edit.
[1007]Ms. Culbreath. or inay type it up.
[1008]Mr. Aaron. or may type it up.
[1009]Mr. Kirbow. Well, is this the same point that we're
[1011]|
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[1044]‘talking about less than 25 people, where you are going to make
[1046]‘writers and consultants."
[1048]prohibition.
[1050]TOP SECRET 16
[1052]a statutory prohibition against use of. all people in that
[1053]category because on page| 61 it says, "of the 65 Americans
[1054]employed by the CIA in the media field, only a little over -
[1057]one third are journalists; another third are CIA agents. operat-
[1059]ing under media cover, and the remaining individuals are either
[1060]k . : ve ,
[1062]employed as CIA media proprietaries abroad or are propaganda
[1064]So we are really talking about making a major: prohibition
[1066]against a segment of our} | society where at the present time ther
[1068]is less than 25 people who have any “direct contact with the.
[1069]reading mind, apparently. . »
[1070]Senator Hart 6f Colordado. I think, Charlie, it's called
[1071]a principle. If it was ‘only one person, you've still got the
[1072]problem. I don't chink it is the quantity.
[1074]| Na. Davis. Bill, in your examples on 61, the first one
[1075]at the bottom, would that now ‘be covered under your prohibition
[1077]: z
[1079]CIA officer engages in intelligence collection under cover as a
[1081]roving” ‘international news correspondent?
[1082]Mr. Bader. I can ‘t) remember from the text here. . whether
[1083]the man is accredited or! not.
[1085]If he is accredited, it would be covered.
[1087]4
[1089]Ms. Davis. If not, he is not additionally covered by your
[1091]Senator Huddleston. This does not extend to the example
[1092]TAR Cremer
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[1096]4
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[1101]le
[1103]ae 13
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[1122], 24
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[1126]on investigation.
[1128]‘is, let's say, is working for Stompe,: or Le. Monde, and who is
[1130]‘not accredited, and at the same time is not accredited to
[1132].an American media organization.
[1134]Tor SECRET
[1136]17
[1138]that you gave, Charlie.
[1140]Mr. Kirbow. No, ar} it doesn't here.
[1142]‘Mr. Bader. Only if he is affiliated with that group. |
[1144]“Mr. Kirbow. His affiliation covers anybody who is an
[1145]American citizen is forever and hereafter would be prohibited, i
[1147]it goes into the statute; from dealing.
[1149]Mx. d@iGenova. That!s only one of the possibilities.
[1151]Mr. Kirbow. That's one of those recommendations based
[1153]Mr. Bader. I wasn't recommending that. I was saying that
[1155]was one of the possibilities of the whole list. . . ¢
[1158]Senator Huddleston. | But the recommendation at the top
[1160]: | oe . .
[1161]of 64 doesn't cover an American citizen who is using the
[1163]i
[1164]i
[1166]foreign media as cover.
[1168]Mr. Bader. This. would not cover an American citizen who .
[1170]-It does not cover an American citizen who is a stringer to
[1172]a
[1173]a Latin American newspaper unless: he is accredited to: an: American
[1174]media organization.
[1175],
[1177]Mr. Kirbow. Let mel try one more time, then, to state the.
[1179]position of not Senator Tower in this case, but another Senator
[1181]as I indicated, spoke to me on this very subject,and indicate
[1183]to you that we not do to harm or to prevent the use by the
[1187]HW 50955 BDocld: 32423513 Page 20
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[1205]295
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[1209]something that we should prohibit by law, but doing this
[1211]‘people overseas or for cover in any way -- there is not
[1213]TOOP SECRET
[1215]‘18
[1217]agency of certain people unless in some way that use affects
[1219]the rights and/or in some vague way affects the mental processes
[1220]to: “the: ‘detriment of the American citizenry, that + we don' t
[1221]concern ourselves with passing laws to protect the person who
[1222]reads something that these people do. itf you do. this, you open
[1223]that can of worms which gets you into a prohibition against any
[1224]work in the press or elsewhere in a propaganda fashion. |
[1226]‘Now, the Committee may decide that propaganda is in fact
[1228]piecemeal like this, it does just exactly that. I see nothing
[1229]in our record that indicates that the use of certain of urbse
[1232]any evidence that*it"has:adversely affected the rights of the
[1234]citizens of the United States. | There isa potential for
[1236]abuse in practically anything secret and covert.
[1238]a Senator Huddleston. I don't believe the recommendation
[1240]at the top of page 64 violates what you have just said. |
[1241]Mr. Maxwell. I would not think that =< ;
[1242]Mr. Kirbow.. Well, it says, Mr. Chairman, that by statute,
[1244]by statute, which means by law, the CIA should be prohibited
[1246]from using American media organizations for cover. We apparently
[1248]have 65 people, a portion of which are being used for cover,
[1250]and apparently they consider them to be an essential asset, or
[1252]they wouldn't be. using them.
[1254]‘Is that correct, Mr. Bader?
[1255]Te FP CR er
[1257]HY 50955 Docld: 32423513 Page 21.
[1259]on PP oF AM.
[1261]fon)
[1263]mee)
[1265]nue)
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[1286]to 24
[1288]25 ||
[1290]TOP SECRET
[1292]19
[1294]Mr. Bader. The CIA?
[1296]Mr. Kirbow. Yes.
[1298]“Mr. Bader. I would assume that they would have extended
[1299]their prohibition to this, or on the other hand one could argue
[1300]I don't know, what their motives were. It could have been they
[1301]felt that this, the first step they took was the one that was -
[1302]dealing with what the public was demanding.
[1304]Mr. Kirbow. Well, I really don! t see anything in our
[1305]record or any evidence that they } have given us or anything
[1306]other than a staff position on ‘this which we are trying te
[1307]sell the comnittes that this is a harmful procedure. V
[1308]| “Senator Huddleston. What this does is extends beyond
[1309]the practice of journalists to any ‘other Person, be it an
[1310]executive or clerk or typist or whatever, on the assumption
[1311]that you can't be . a Little bit. pregnant. — If the agency is
[1312]going to be subverted anywhere, not the agency, if the insti-
[1313]tution of the press is, that it is going to be’ subverted.
[1315]Mr. Bader. Mr. Chairman, the Agency has accepted the |
[1316]basic principle, because it has removed from its list of
[1317]operational assets a rather larger number than this would
[1318]call for. | |
[1320]Mr. Kirbow, ” But if I hear correctly what you: are saying
[1322]‘then, we are out to- protect the American media from being made
[1324]pregnant by the CIA and not worrying at all about the reading
[1326]public or the other, but just the media.
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[1356]of expedition, I move the passage of these three recommendations}.
[1358]-tion of CIA funded, supported, subsidized and so forth, that
[1360]13
[1362]secondly, while there is no printing going on here, the
[1364]Agency now has upon itself, be made law.
[1366]‘and the third point is that it be extended to say by statute |
[1368]Pop SECRET | | ”
[1370]Senator Huddleston. The. assumption is if the media of
[1371]the press is subverted, that it will affect the citizens, or
[1372]they will suffer. ;
[1374]Senator Hart of Colorado. Mre Chairman, in the interest
[1376]Senator Huddleston. All right. let! Ss see what. the three
[1378]are. ; |
[1379]7 |
[1381]Mr. Aaron. Well, let me summarize the first one. I think
[1383]we have agreed the first is that the prohibition on-distribu-
[1385]|
[1386]Mr. Inderfurth. Printed.
[1388]3
[1390]that be prohibited within the United States. > P 3
[1392]“Mr. Kirbow. Excuse me. Not printed.
[1393]Mr. Aaron. The word. "printed" dropped out for the followin
[1394]reason. One, it makes it easier to prohibit--the distribution
[1396]if you don" to identify where the printing is taking” place, and >
[1398]question really goes to distribution. I think that was the
[1399]concurrence of the Committee.
[1401]. | ; oO TO,
[1402]The second point is that the prohibitions of -~ that the
[1404]Mr, diGenova.. ‘Ori the use of media personnel and
[1405]institutions?
[1407]Mr. Aaron. on the use of media personnel and institutions,
[1409]rem Panes
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[1445]TOP SECRET oa
[1447]the CIA shoula be prohibited from using American media organiza
[1449]tions for cover.
[1451]Senator Huddleston. Well, the style of this: ought to
[1453]be changed, it seems to. me, because one of the recommendations,
[1455]instead of listed under recommendations, is the last Paragraph
[1457]on 63, is that correct?
[1459]Mr. Aaron. Yes, that would be picked up as a recommenda-
[1460]tion, that is correct.
[1462]Mr. diGenova. Plus the other one,. which is not on 64.
[1464]Mr. Aaron. well, the one on 64, the ‘bottom one: cones « out.
[1466]Senator Huddleston. Right. - 7 ¥
[1468]Senator Mathias. Before you leave. that, as a matter of
[1470]record, I am requested to note an exception on behalf of
[1472]minority.
[1474]Mr, Aaron. The second section was the covert use of
[1475]American clergy and laity. This is on Page 64. |
[1477]“Senator Huddleston. Was that included in your motion? —
[1479]Senator Hart of Colorado. No.
[1481]Mr. Aaron. tr think that covers ¢he recommendation.
[1483]Mr, Maxwell. they hadn' t discussed whether. ate, aa
[1485]should be made public.
[1487]Senator Huddleston. Well, if it becomes a statute, it
[1488]becomes public . |
[1489]Mr. Inderfurth. But the statute will remain secret.
[1490]Mr. Aaron. No, we are ready to move on it, . ito covert
[1493]HW 50955 Docld: 32423513 Page 24
[1497]1 ||use of American clergy and laity.
[1499]2 Senator Huddleston. Well,.the covert action vis-
[1500]3 || twith.:i:the: noted:4 exception, those recommendations go before
[1501]4 the Committee. :
[1502]5 Senator Hart of Colorado. Just for clarification, Mac, is:
[1503]6 || that the entire minority or what?
[1504]7 7 Senator Mathias. No, it's only one member.
[1505]8 Il. Senator Huddleston. Now we are ready to deal with the
[1506]g ||clergy. |
[1507]10 ; Mr. Aaron. the point here is, I think, the CIA takes.
[1508]ll the position that it has no covert arrangements with Amerigan:.. |
[1509]12]; clergy and.laity, and that this will continue as policy, but
[1511]va! _ they have relationship of a clandestine character which don't
[1513]14 involve remuneration. | |
[1514]“4s : Senator Huddleston. Incidentably, is that a new policy?
[1516]16 Mr. Bader. Yes, as of February 10, 1976. |
[1517]17 Mr. Aaron. It's pretty short. This is the sum total of
[1518]1g our findings, and it explains it better than I can.
[1519]19 Mr. Bader. This has not been, obviously you can see,
[1520]30 Senator and members of the Committee, from the text that the »
[1521]21 ||Committee has found the CIA has’a total of 14 ‘covert arrangement
[1522]22 involving direct operational use of 21,. that should be religious|
[1523]23 persons, and I found it very difficult in this to properly or
[1525]\ _— 84 respectively address the category here, whether they are America
[1527]o5 ||clergy, regligious persons, or what. It is a term of art I
[1531]HY 50955 Docld: 32423513 Page 25
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[1569]TOP SECRET
[1571]really haven't quite been able to deal with.
[1573]As of February loth, the CIA announced that the CIA has
[1574]not secret paid or contractual relationships with an.American
[1575]clergyman or missionary.” this practice will be continued as a
[1576]matter of policy.
[1578]Senator Huddleston. I think we ought to clarify that
[1579]religious persons. That would include Chuck Colson.
[1581]Mr. Bader. The issue here is, we are saying in the first :
[1582]instance, we welcome this policy which they intend to put into
[1583]their operational prohibitions, and the recommendation that
[1585]we bring"to you is a very simple one, in. addition: to that dis
[1588]that it be extended. from contractual to all operational rélatio ~
[1590]ships, paid and unpaid. —
[1591]Senator Huddleston. By statute.
[1592]Mr. Bader. By statute. _
[1593]Mr. Inderfurth. May I ask a question here?
[1594]How does: this conform to Senator Hatfield's bill .on-this?
[1595]Mr. Bader. I don't know. :
[1596]Mr.Inderfurth. I don't know. I'll get a copy of it,
[1597]but I think to the degree possible, if the committee
[1598]recommends by statute a prohibition, it should ba made to confo ™m
[1599]to: that’ because he has put ina great deal of work on that, or
[1600]without knowing the facts, I might add.
[1602]Mr. Kirbow. The other. ‘thing is the. Committee may want.
[1604]to support legislation that is already pending.
[1605]TAN Ee
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[1611]‘Mr, Maxwell. What is the nature of the covert relationship
[1612]‘with religious persons now in effect?
[1614]Senator Mathias. A few patriotic volunteers.
[1616]Mr. Bader. Patriotic volunteers, at least one of them,
[1617]from the operational records.
[1619]I think, too, they have what is called a memorandum of
[1620]agreement which is not contractual in the sense that it.
[1621]involves paid or unpaid.)
[1623]Mr. Maxwell. ‘What are they doing?
[1625]Mr. Bader. They collect intelligence information. .
[1627]Mr. Kirbow. What is a religious person, Mr. Bader, a. they
[1628]use it or as you use it here? |
[1630]- Would that mean the organ player that is a civilian who
[1631]travels with a preacher and plays the organ? —
[1632]Mr. Bader, “No. It is intended to be the American clergy,
[1633]“although I certainly: would lean on whoever can tell me what a>
[1634]proper term is to define American clergy.
[1636]Senator Mathias. What about this. fellow around, Maharaja
[1637]Rani?
[1639]- Senator’ Huddleston. I'll think on your defintion.
[1641]ur. Bader. I think we'll have-to have a footnote as to
[1642]what American clergy may be.
[1644]Mr. diGenova. American clergy or missionaries, certainly.
[1646]Senator Huddleston. Well, missionary gets a little
[1648]fuzzy.
[1650]Se Le, dol le ce
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[1654]TOP SECRET |
[1656]a a Mr. Bader. The Agency uses “American clergy or missionary. |
[1658]2 Senator Huddleston. It has to: be a person whose primary |
[1659]3 occupation is for a religious order or: sect | or something, “it
[1661](4 | seems to me. |
[1662]5 _ “Mr. Kirbow. ‘How about the Mormon youth who do their things
[1663]6 overseas? |
[1664]7 I Would: this take care of them and prevent | them from getting
[1665]8 gobbled up?
[1667]9 Senator Huddleston. I think that's a good: question. “They
[1668]10 | receive no pay. | | _
[1670]11 ‘Mr. Kirbow. _ They are. not church people, per se. It ps
[1672]12.|| Part of their religion, doing the service. You see, : this ? jets
[1674]Y 13, tobe a rather broad extension, or you leave out certain
[1676]14 || things if you are not careful with your definition.
[1678]15 Senator Huddleston. I think there may be somewhere in our
[1680]16 | litany a definition. I am not sure. |
[1682]19 "Mr. Inderfurth. I would imagine that Senator Hatfield's
[1683]1g | bill, a definition of what clergy -- that would be spelled out.
[1684]19 || There are copies ‘coming over now. ; .
[1686]20 Mr. Bader. — Well, I think maybe we: will get a copy of the.
[1687]91 || definition of clergy or missionary. Maybe that will clear
[1689]22. that up. . |
[1691]ps | “Senator Huddleston. Well, I think, you know, some
[1693]™ | 24 || churches send people over for a very short period of time. They
[1695]25 || are lay people, really, but while they are there, they are
[1696], TAR Creme
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[1728]there more or less under the auspices of the church group.
[1730]Mr. Kirbow. At least a local church frequently sponsored
[1732]{| them.
[1734]Senator Huddleston. r don't think you can prohibit all
[1735]those kinds of people. I think gome kind of definition should
[1736]include the primary occupation of clergy, clergy itself.
[1738]Senator Mathias. Well, why don't!we commit to staff for
[1739]the moment. the question of definition?
[1741]Senator Huddleston. I think we will have to do that.
[1743]Okay. Are we ready to move on that?
[1745]Mr. Aaron. The ‘recommendation is that whomever or hdwever.|
[1746]we define them -- and that's obviously an important question,
[1747]that they either be prohibited by statute. The other alternati
[1748]is to simply prohibit: any further or. recommend the prohibition |
[1749]of any further CIA recruitment in this field.
[1751]“Ms. Culbreath., ‘The way this is.worded, this would get -
[1752]anybody who is a lay member of a church. You have got recruit-
[1753]ments of American clergy or laity. . .
[1755]If I am a member of the Methodist church, I am in the
[1757]| laity of the church.
[1759]‘Mr. Miller. You’ have raised a question. There are people
[1760]who. are not. priests in the ‘religious: hierarchy ain a~ particular
[1761]sect who may devote their entire: lives to that particular
[1762]church.
[1764]Senator Mathias. Well, I think the word "a religious” --
[1765]TE Th ee es PE
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[1770]TOP SECRET | at
[1772]~ 1 ‘I'm serious here -- should be considered.
[1773]e ; Mr. Aaron. "A réligious?"
[1774]3
[1776]. Mr. Bader. We'll have to obviously work on that. Laity
[1777]4 j/was not meant here to be a member of a church, for technical
[1778]5 terms, the'technical terms Mr. Miller mentioned.
[1780]6 Mr. Miller. As distinct from the congregation, it was
[1782]7 |)meant to deal with the administrators in a religious order.
[1784]8 Senator Huddleston. Well, some sects have lay preachers and|
[1786]9 | lay clergy.
[1787]LO Mr. Kirbow. Senator Hart, do you want each of these
[1789]‘11 | categories like this examined in the light “of the constit&itional
[1791]sight
[1793]12 question that you raised earlier?
[1795]o™ . 13 Senator Hart of. Colorado. r just raised the issue where
[1796]14 the academics were concerned “to resolve it, so I'm sure it |
[1797]’ 15 |) should be raised by somebody. |
[1798]16 | “Senator Huddleston. Are you ready to go on the religious
[1799]17 | insofar as what is the definition? Then that will be ~~
[1800]‘18 , Senator Hart of Colorado. ves, sir.
[1801]49 Senator Huddleston. Then that will be moved. up; I assume,
[1802]20 with exceptions noted? -
[1803]21 - Mr. “Kirbow. I don't have any exception to that one; sir.
[1804]22 Mr. Inderfurth. That is by statute, right?
[1805]) Senator Huddleston. Pardon? | |
[1806]¢ ; _ 24 or. Inderfurth. Is that by statute?
[1807]25 Senator Huddleston. Right. .
[1809]ST a ol ol oh
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[1840]t vo 24
[1842]25
[1844]example, the prime example of regulation doesn't deal so
[1846]or things of that nature...
[1848]in the health area, where there is some practice of the
[1850]set in the community at. large, and that generally has dealt
[1852]TOP SECRET
[1854]Mr. Maxwell. There may be a First Amendment argument —
[1855]here, particularly in fundamentalist groups whose religious. -
[1856]beliefs: are committed, are directed toward opposition ‘toward
[1858]Godless atheism.
[1860]Mr. diGenova. Except that the control of religious organi-
[1861]zation has historically been subject to governmental regulation
[1862]in this sense: the Supreme Court in light of Senator Hart's
[1864]question last night, I did a little bit of research.. The
[1866]much with prohibition of the Government dealing with someone,
[1867]although there are Vast areas where the government is not 4.
[1868]permitted to get into. “The question is, for years the Supreme
[1869]Court has ruled that’ there are certain health regulations é
[1870]states that. religious sects must comply with, and they have
[1872]to comply with it even if it conflicts with their basic religio 3
[1874]belief, that they ‘have to comply + with ity like quarantines
[1876]'- So there is clearly an area where the First Amendment of.
[1877]religious freedom concept falls in the face of a greater good,
[1878]the need of the general public, and that has generally ‘been
[1880]religion which conflicts with some standard which has been
[1882]wit:h health.
[1884]Mr. Kixbow. Maybe the HEW Act can bring the CIA under one
[1886]HW 50955  DocId:32423513 Page. 31
[1888]10
[1890]11
[1892]le
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[1895]15
[1896]16
[1897]17
[1898]18
[1900]19
[1906]22
[1908]23
[1910]25
[1912]130 a government agency, which happens to be the cra, or any other
[1914]a member of one of these sects that was in an area where they
[1916]TOP SECRET 8 »
[1918]of these health threats.
[1920]‘Mr. diGenova. Self+immolation.
[1922]Senator Huddleston. The snake acts and innoculations.
[1924]“Mr. aiGenova. That's exactly right.
[1926]ur. Maxwell. The problem is that's not quite applicable
[1927]to this, and one has to argue in the past the Court has ruled
[1928]on things that are found to be a threat to the personal liveli-
[1929]hood or health of the individual rather than something that |
[1930]could be construed in a fundamentalist sense.
[1932]Senator Huddleston, This doesn't preclude 4 a sect that
[1934]may be anti~atheist. and as ‘such anti-Conmunist from , pursuifig
[1936]its principles, but the restriction would be pursing them throu
[1938]methods.
[1940]Ms..Culbreath. Would this prohibit, then, somebody who wa
[1942]gained information that would be helpful from them being source ?
[1943]Senator Huddleston. ‘I wouldn't think sO ‘if they wanted
[1944]to write letters to the CIA. . .
[1945]Ms. Culbreath. Well, just in terms of the. debriefing ‘kind :
[1946]of ee ; .
[1947]| Ms. Davis. We are talking about operational, not coming
[1948]in to the Domestic Contact Service.
[1949]’ Mr. diGenova. It is not very clear on this.
[1951]Mr. Maxwell. The problem in part goes back to the difficult:
[1952]. ST ed ol ol ce
[1954]HW 50955 Docld:32423513 Page 32
[1956]TOP SECRET 0
[1957]~ 1 ||we had with the Nomestic Contact. Division in trying to determine}
[1958]-_ 2 | what was operational support, if operational. support would be.
[1960]3 what did you learn’ about individuals there who might be
[1961]4 receptive to American approaches. ‘Then the clergy would be
[1962]5 || prohibited from providing that kind of information if that
[1963]6 || is operational support. .
[1964]7 IL - Senator Mathias. Well, it seems to me if the religious .
[1965]8 || came in and said I. was at a meeting. of the Holy Rollers last nig é
[1966]9 and we all went down on the mourner's bench, and I. heard the
[1967]Lo || most remarkable things, and this is what I heard, there would
[1968]11 be no prohibition against listening. Now, .if you say, go Back
[1969]1p.|) to the Holy Rollers tonight -- 4
[1970]a 3 | Mr. Kixbow. And listen again.
[1971]lai. Senator Mathias. Then you've got a question.
[1972]15 |e Senator Huddleston. Then it is operational.
[1973]16 Z.don't think there's a need to write in that it doesn't
[1974]T pertain to the voluntary furnishing of information. I don't
[1975]18 know. . | | |
[1976]is | My. Aaron. I don" t think -- no, ‘that! Ss really not an
[1977]20 operational use, quite ‘frankly. rt! s “very similar to the DCD
[1978]21 which takes information from lots of people, including people
[1979]50 who are and have been. for some time proscribed by CIA's own --
[1980]- 93 |) _ Sénator Huddleston. Well, anyway, that would be worked
[1981]™~ ; p4 || out in the statute itself. _ |
[1982]| 285 - Mr. Aaron. We are spared the problem.
[1984]TAR Cremer
[1986]HW 50955 © Docld:32493513 Page 33
[1988]"Top SECRET
[1990]31
[1991]~ 1 Senator Huddleston. We ought to move on.
[1992]2 ; Mr. Aaron. The next section is proprietaries and cover.
[1993]3 | Senator Huddleston. — I just wonder if in Presenting’ this,
[1994]4 these three, these four, now, that we have just approved, it
[1995]5 | would be of any value: to assert in our report that we recognize
[1996]6 that. the Agency has to “fina proper cover for. its agents, that
[1997]9 restricting that cover isa matter of ‘some importance, but there
[1998].@ ||are certain institutions ‘that ‘the Committee feels” because of
[1999]g | their nature and ‘because of their standing ‘in the country, and
[2000]lo because of the need for the public to have confidence in.
[2001]11 | that they should be, in effect, off limits, and because’ of{enat
[2002]12 | we recommend that these four recommendations. be brought. I
[2003]) 13. don't know whether you want, to make it sound any better x
[2004]14 || not. |
[2005]15 ‘Senator Hart of Colorado. Mr. Chairman, does the absence
[2007]1g | Of brackets on the next set of recommendations mean that they
[2011]18 Senator Huddleston, on the proprietaries?
[2013]“49 oe Senator Hart of Colorado. Yes. |
[2015]20 | Mr. Aaron. That is correct.
[2017]21 ; Senator Huddleston. The gentleman did such a great job
[2019]‘p99 |) that nobody can question them.
[2020]23 Mr. Aaron. I think there is only one set of brackets, and
[2021]oq || the next section is on page 67 in which it says that --
[2023]25 7 Mr, diGenova. Oh, yes, there is something.
[2024]. Tee CF eI ee
[2026]HW 50955) Docld:324273513 Page 34.
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[2030]11
[2032]12.
[2034]“14
[2035]15
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[2039]19
[2040]20
[2042]21
[2044]22
[2046]- 23
[2047]24
[2049]25
[2051]13
[2053]dissolves a proprietary, it tries to avoid conflicts of ‘interes
[2057]Mr. Kirbow. What page are you on?
[2058]Mr. diGenova. 67.
[2059]At the bottom of page 67 is a bracketed quote about
[2061]Admiral Raborn, a former Director of Central Intelligence,
[2063]Now, if my memory serves me correctly -< now, first of all,}
[2064]this is the first time that anyone is mentioned by ‘name in the |
[2065]findings. | | | |
[2067]Senator Huddleston. And the total findings are in that
[2068]section. | | : |
[2070]Mr. Kirbow. The findings are this foreign and military.
[2072]Senator Huddleston. We referred to Helms and Laird, but
[2073]I think we decided we could write around that. ©
[2075]Mr. diGenova. Well, here’ Ss “what happened here. This
[2077]paragraph deals with. the. fact ‘that when the Agency disposes or
[2079]However, when noted that sometimes pressures were brought
[2080]to bear on the Agency to dispose of the entity as a favor to.
[2081]someone, so that it would benefit someone else. |
[2083]Now, the most glaring example of this was this activity
[2084]of ‘the former Director, Admiral Raborn, who actually became
[2085]involved in negotiations on behalf of a client, Overseas
[2086]National. Airways,’ which he represented, and he wanted the sale
[2087]of Southern. Air Transport, which was. a CIA proprietary, large
[2088]assets and large property, to Overseas National Airways, which
[2090]of course would have acquired Southern Air ‘rransport’s lucrative
[2091]wee ae em fee ea
[2093]HW 50955 “ DocId:32423513 Page 35°
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[2113]22
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[2121]33
[2123]routes.
[2124]Now, the way I originally had it written was "A former
[2126]Director of the Central Intelligence Agency sought unsuccésss~
[2128]fully to influence the sale.” However, if it was left that way,
[2130]people would have to guess at which one of these guys did this
[2131]and it would unfairly impugn all of the directors. The name
[2132]was inserted. Therefore, the question now becomes whether | it.
[2134]should be left in at all since the name is inserted, ‘and since
[2136]‘the name is mentioned in the report, and whether or not the
[2138]whole sentence-~
[2139]| Senator Hart of Colorado. Well, what if we just saig "A
[2140]former Director"? | : a o
[2141]“Mr. diGenova. well, the problem there, Senator, is then’
[2142]people say, which one was it?. |
[2143]Senator Hart of: colorado: Good.
[2144]Mr. aiGenova. Oh, all right.
[2145]Mr. Inderfurth. I think the assumption would be Richard
[2146]Helms. - | | |
[2147]Mr. diGenova. MeCone more than Helms.
[2148]Senator Hart of Colorado. Well, we ran into this last:
[2149]summer with the Exener matter and all like that.
[2150]Ms, Culbreath. ‘A former person. |
[2151]Mr. diGenova. The Agency itself cited this as the most
[2152]flagrant example of intercession on behalf of anyone. As a :
[2154]matter of fact, the memorandums on ‘this refer to dozens of -
[2155]Te ee ee .
[2157]‘HW 50955 Docld:32423513 Page 36
[2159]1OP SECRET
[2161]34
[2162]1 | phone calls and overtures, and it is a former Director trying to
[2163]” . 2 gain a benefit. Tt is an unseemly situation, and they labeled
[2164]3 it as a conflict:of interest which: they sought to avoid, and
[2165]4 in fact they. dia, and they are praised for it in the report
[2166]5 because they were really under - tremendous pressure.
[2167]6 ; So I have no feeling one way or the other. I think to
[2168]9 ‘|/ leave out his name unfairly impugns, the other. To leave it in,
[2169]g |jialso, is only the second time in the whole findings and conclusi t
[2170]9 that we mention anybody" S name, so I don' t care,
[2171]10 | Senator Huddleston. And you' ve got one, Recommendation |
[2172]- 431 || No. 5, related to the disposal of the proprietaries, that the |
[2173]12 Justice Department approve? . S
[2174]~s “a3 Mr. diGenova. Be consulted on| the disposition. |
[2175]14 - Mr. Kirbow. Mr. Chairman, can;I be heard on that?
[2176]15 _ Senator Huddleston. Yes, sir. |
[2177]16— Mr. Kirbow. Senator Hart, in this regard we have consistent ¥y
[2178]1? attempted by most. every ‘reasonable means to not use the names
[2179]1g ||of people unless they had committed] something illegal.
[2180]19 || —« Senator Hart of Colorado. Well, don't side with me. I'm
[2181]50 not taking a position. . |
[2182]21 . Mr. Kirbow. But the Exener. thing was a big example, but:
[2183]22 ||we must have had 20 other names that we went through on that
[2184]23 ||assassination, and we wrote around them,
[2185]os , 24 Senator Hart of Colorado. | But a number of people argued
[2186]25 ||stxrongly that we ought to name her and go into details, so I:
[2187]TOP CFCRET
[2188]WW 50955 DocTd:32493513 Page 37
[2191]fo.) on > bl no H
[2193]Nb
[2195]210
[2196]“.ll
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[2204]1?
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[2217]HW 50955 DocId:32423513' Page 38.
[2219]suppose the Same arguments could be used here on this matter. |
[2221]had violated, and none is apparently cited in the record.
[2223]‘Admiral Raborn. I think there's another example. I'm. not
[2225]Should do is | consider this action’ without necessarily naming
[2227]TOP SECRET
[2229]350
[2231]Mr. Kirbow. But the point I raised at the staff meeting
[2233]i
[2235]just before the Committee came back, when. the subject was
[2237]raised, was did Admiral Raborn, as a retired military officer, —
[2238]currently in a civilian status, although he was former —— reak
[2239]any American law, or had they sold it to this, would it have
[2240]been a violation of the law, and the answer was no..
[2242]If he was involved --+ or they knew of no law that he |
[2244]Pressure was brought: to bear, there! is no doubt about it, ‘by
[2245]sure whether Joe described it to me or someone else, of a *
[2246]very senior official out there dealing back with the | Agency.
[2248]Now, the military, as Senator Hart knows, is prohibited |
[2249]from this by regulations and I think by law. I know that as a
[2250]regular military officer, you are not allowed to do contractual
[2251]business with your agency forever, but with the other military
[2252]departments and the Department of Defense, I think you have to
[2253]have a: cleansing period of ‘five to seven years, ©
[2255]I don't believe there is any such provision in the Act
[2257]that applies to. former Directors, and probably what the Committ le
[2259]him unless he was in violation of some really serious
[2260]wrongdoing, and: make a prohibition, drawn similarly, with what
[2262]now applies to senior officials going back and kind of exerting
[2264]- 3 ee Re
[2267]‘lo
[2271]12
[2273]- 414
[2275]15
[2277]16
[2279]17
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[2297]TOP SECRET =.
[2299]undue influence on those people.
[2300]Senator Huddleston. Joe, is it accurate to say that |
[2301]pressures were often brought to bear?
[2303]Mr. diGenova. We changed that. to say. sometimes. ‘This is
[2305]}a rewrite. Someone else wrote this after I had submitted it,
[2307]‘and we had a meeting today, and we changed several things in
[2309]there.
[2311]So I leave it up to the Committee. This was a matter that
[2312]I-- I wanted to flag it and leave it there. The explanation
[2313]is as clear as I can give it. . - | |
[2315]Mr. Inderfurth. This is the first time he is mentioned -
[2317]oe
[2319]Ae
[2321]in the entire paper.
[2322]Mr. diGenova. That's right.
[2323]Senator Huddleston. Why don't we delete that sentence. and
[2324]keep it in our full report, our big report.
[2325]Mr. Kirbow. There is a major classified report on
[2326]this that would contain all the facts. :
[2327]Senator fuddleston. r am goncerned now whether any other
[2329]instances of someone may be, of similar standing as Admiral
[2331]“Raborn.—
[2333]Mr. diGenova. Yes. There are instances in the record
[2334]which do not deal with proprietaries, of John McCone intercedin
[2335]on behalf of Pan American directly with the Director of
[2336]Central Intelligence, and it is not mentioned in the report,
[2337]and it should be, and it is a problem that we: have had, Mr.
[2339]TAP &F eR Er
[2341]if
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[2355]16.
[2357]“1?
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[2360]20
[2362]21
[2364]22
[2366]25.
[2368]didn't want to.
[2370]13.
[2374]TOP SECRET
[2376]37
[2378]Chairman, has been that the work involving the relationship of
[2379]the Central Intelligence Agency with American business companies
[2380]was "severed off from the proprietary work ‘for the’ simple »
[2381]reason that they are not the same thing. |
[2383]That work has been done. It has not been pursued vigorous-
[2385]ly, ‘not because the individual: who was, responsible ‘for itd .
[2387]Senator Huddleston. That happened after he left.
[2389]_ Mr. diGenova. _ That's right, after Mr. McCone left the.
[2390]DCI, he had frequent contacts, according to the records, with
[2391]the Agency, with high level: Agency personnel, and in one shitandh
[2392]he interceded personally with the Director of Central Intelli-
[2393]gence to avoid actions which would be taken by another govern=
[2394]ment and its-airline:which would adversely affect Pan American
[2395]world Airways. |
[2397]Senator Huddleston. It is hard. to separate a man from his
[2398]past totally,
[2399]Mr. diGenova. It seems particularly hard with DCIs.—
[2401]Mr. Kirbow. Well, not: only here, this is not with the
[2402]Agency, but it came up in my experience with the Armed Services
[2403]Committee involving Continental Airlines.
[2405]Senator Mathias. This sentence.
[2407]Senator Huddleston. Just the sentence in brackets.
[2409]“Senator Mathias. Well, I think if. you! ve. got a Raborn Case
[2411]a. MeCone Case .and whatnot, that you can't make fish of one and
[2412]TAF crear ne a
[2414]HW 50955 DBocld:32423513 Page 40
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[2442]“13
[2444]TOP SECRET
[2446]38
[2448]fowl of the other.
[2450]Senator Huddleston. IT think. we've already said that
[2452]pressures sometimes were brought to bear and we- make recommenda-
[2453]tions to correct that.
[2455]Ms. Culbreath. Mr. Chairman, could I suggest. that maybe if
[2456]we do delete that, that we perhaps redo that previous sentence
[2457]to make it a little stronger, and perhaps in some way
[2458]indicate that these were serious pressures, and they were, I
[2459]think, hard pressures to withstand when somebody in that kind
[2460]of position -~ | |
[2462]Senator Huddleston. They were withstood, though.
[2465]yet PEEP Ray |
[2467]‘Mr. Maxwell. They would get lost the. way the sentence is
[2468]cut. | |
[2470]Mr. diGenova. I | think what we will do is David and I
[2471]will get together, and Blizabeth, and we will change this
[2472]"however" sentence, ehe sentence. that precedes ‘the one that,
[2473]has just been deleted, and we will expand that sentence to.
[2474]more accurately explain that the. pressures came. from high soureas
[2475]sometimes. Some of them may have been maybe, former Agency
[2476]‘directors. . |
[2478]Senator Huddleston. I think we should make the point that
[2479]at was former. | | |
[2481]Senator Mathias. ‘Well, if they were former directors,
[2482]‘then you may as well leave in the last sentence.
[2484]Mr. diGenova. Maybe. -
[2485]TD
[2487]HY 50955 Docld: 32423513 Page 41
[2491]12
[2493]DS
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[2519]TEOXP SECRET - 39
[2521]Mr. Kirbow. - Mr. Chairman, may I suggest that mayhe
[2522]perhaps we use this type of part of the investigation and what
[2523]we know from certain of the other files to prohibit this type
[2524]of conduct by. law in the future in our general recommendations?
[2526]Senator Huddleston. And make it similar to --.
[2528]Mr. Kirbow. | similar. I think you would have to look at
[2529]something from the staff.
[2531]Mr. diGenova. I didn’ t have that recommendation in there,
[2532]but I think the record indicates it ought to be there.
[2534]Mr. Kirbow. It wouldn't be proper, necessarily, to put it
[2536]i]
[2538]right here under proprietaries, but. let's put it in the
[2540]alee
[2542]aye
[2544]general recommendations.
[2546]Mr. diGenova. David, did you get that? --
[2548]Mr. Aaron. I'm sorry. | .
[2550]There's a recommendation that --
[2552]Mr. diGenova. That Agency personnal ate -
[2554]Mr. Kirbow. Senior officials.
[2556]Senator Huddleston.. .Similar to what applies now for
[2557]nititary, | | _
[2559]Mr. Maxwell. Well, perhaps the statute, perhaps: we could
[2560]recommend a statute similar to that governing the: Department of
[2561]Defense. -
[2563]Mr. Kirbow. Be enacted by the next Committee, similar
[2564]in effect to. . | |
[2566]Senator Huddleston. And find a proper place to put it in
[2567]Te ol at lacie
[2569]HY 50955 Docld:32423513 Page 42
[2572]. 4 1b 2
[2573]begin 2a
[2575]10
[2577]a
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[2585]16
[2586]17
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[2595]oo BS
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[2606]TOP SECRET |
[2608]}}our recommendations.
[2610]Mr. Aaron. Okay.
[2611]Mr. Maxwell. Well, Charlie, correct me. I think the
[2612]proprietary section would be the appropriate section because
[2614]that would be where it came up most;,unless there is another
[2616]one that you see more readily.
[2618]“Mr. diGenova. We can work that out. I don’t - think
[2619]that's terribly --
[2621]Mr. Kirbow. I think there have been two or three sug-
[2623]gestions made here that will result in general recommendations
[2625]on a page that isn't necessarily supported by findings, but you |"
[2626]come to this overally conclusion based: upon your total concept
[2627]of the Agency and its procedures and everything else in view
[2628]of the findings. | | . |
[2630]. Mr. diGenova. The only thing T want, to do is -- David,
[2632]I know you have gone through this, but the Senators may want to-
[2634]‘look at page 68 through 70, which deal with cover, and particu-
[2636]larly with Mr. Welch.
[2638]“Ms. Culbreath, - I had a point I wanted to raise on that.
[2639]. Mr. diGenova. Well, Mr. Chairman, I think: the Senators
[2640]want to read this. ; .
[2641]Ms. Culbreath, Why don't we let them look through it.
[2642](Pause.) |
[2643]Senator Huddleston. Let's go back on. the: record.
[2645]Mr. diGenova. I do know the Agency is going to come in
[2647]Te) SFeper
[2650]10
[2654]| 13
[2655]| 14
[2656]15
[2658]16
[2660]1?
[2662]“18
[2664]19
[2666]20.
[2668]21
[2669]22
[2671]25
[2673]@ \ , 24
[2675]25
[2677]= far there has been no evidence that that.is the case. It
[2679]12,
[2681]TOP SECRET
[2683]41
[2685]tomorrow to review the cover paper from which this summary is
[2687]drawn. I know Eric has some problems with the cover paper, bot
[2689]editorially, because they view it as overly simplistic and
[2691]harsh because it-. reflects all of the Inspector General's
[2693]| judgments, but they have some problems with cover in general,
[2695]but. I don't think this is going to be part of that problem.
[2696]Senator Huddleston. I have some problem with this page
[2697]70. relating to Welch because it seems the whole implication of
[2699]that is that he was. murdered because his cover was blown, and
[2703]highlights the argument, I think, correctly, but it. seems ‘go me |)
[2705]it leaves’ the impression that here is a case where a fellow's .
[2707]cover o£ lack of cover resulted in his death.
[2708]I think the Agency people have specifically said to us_
[2710]so far that they have no reason at this point yet to expect
[2712]that that was the reason he'got killed. |
[2714]Mr. Maxwell. In regard to the specific quote, I think
[2715]we have to be very careful as to getting involved in an argumen
[2716]which would imply that anything that we possibly did had an 7
[2717]effect on it, and also, that it seems to point to Mr. Welch |
[2718]and say, well, it is all his fault. | | |
[2719]| Senator Huddleston. He didn't protect. his cover, he
[2721]didn't do what they advised him to do, and you see down here
[2723]ve have another quote which says, referring to international
[2725]terrorism and incitement for these kind of people to take the
[2727]wee pee ete
[2729]HY 50955 Docld: 327423513 Page 44
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[2756]Bee TOP SECRET
[2758]42.
[2760]kind of action which unfortunately led: ‘to the death of Dick
[2762]Welch. There again we are ascribing something | to the death of
[2764]‘Dick Welch which nobody knows yet,- you know, what ‘terrorists
[2766]killed him or why; at least our record doesn't show...
[2767]Mr. diGenova. These statements here, Senator, this isa
[2768]direct quote from Eric Eisenstead's memo. Do you think that:
[2770]we should maybe-in the findings and recommendations shorten
[2772]‘this and maybe --
[2774]Mr. - Kirbow. I think the part of the record which is an.
[2775]unknown fact is why ‘Bick Welch was killed, and - we should stay
[2776]away from any quotes or other pronouncenents in oa ol
[2777]attribute his death to any particular thing unless we know
[2778]something. | | |
[2780]Mr. Aaron, I think that is a good point. We might put
[2781]in here a statement which says the Committee has no information
[2783]as to ‘the reasons, purposes or cause, specific cause, of his
[2785]y
[2787].death. The point is to get at the question of cover, to
[2789]-step out to the question of cover in the report, as we do, I
[2791]think, appropriately, but not have talked about the one case
[2793]‘where this all came out in public, rightly or ‘wrongly.
[2795]Mr. Kirbow. Why don't we use the cover for the gentleman’
[2797]t
[2799]in London, then, where as the tour buses go by, of course, you
[2801]know this is the, hone of the CIA chief, and he hasn't been
[2803]killed yet or "anything like that. If we want to use that
[2805]kind instead of using this. death example; which, by the way,
[2807]TAR RECRET
[2809]HW 50955 ‘Bocld:32423513 Page “45.
[2812]LO
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[2837]14P SECRET
[2839]43
[2841]-has brought some thousands of letters from the constituency, of
[2843]certain southern Senators who shall remain unnamed or near-
[2844]Southern Senators, becaise it kind of was a catalytic agent
[2845]in getting a lot of complaints on the Committee and everything
[2846]else, and this pointing out or explaining Welch's death goes
[2847]back to it. | |
[2848]| Senator Huddleston. I'm sort of southern.
[2850]_ Mr. Kirbow. And you've gota lot of them.
[2852]“Senator Huddleston. Of course, it was used for that
[2854]purpose by certain high officials for that.
[2856]Mr. Kirbow. The very highest, including attending the
[2858]“s
[2859]te.
[2861]funeral.
[2863]Mr. diGenova.. Well, I think one of the things we wanted
[2865]_to pinpoint here, and.first of all, I think we can summarize th
[2867]‘Agency's testimony a little better, The Agency said, nothing |
[2869]this Committee did, first of all, had anything to do with his
[2870]death, as far as they know..
[2871]Ms. Culbreath. But they don't know.
[2873]Mr. diGenova. ‘As far as they know, they don't know : one
[2874]way or another, but the impression ‘that was created in the
[2875]press was, and was pandered £o by the .bcr and the President,
[2876]was that the general actions of exposure of Agency operations
[2877]were responsible for the death of Mr. Welch, and they pandered
[2878]that by y inviting Committee menbers to the funeral as if they
[2880]bore some responsibility:
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[2917]' Now, the obvious public relations value of Mr. Welch's ‘s
[2919]death, the first time in: history ‘the ppo and the DCI go to.
[2920]a funeral in public, they never did that, and there is no doubt
[2921]that they tried to. make political hay out of his death. I
[2922]think it is only fair that the Committee ultimately ‘say -7
[2924]Senator Huddleston, » Right, but I think you' ve got two
[2926]different problems. You've gota problem with whether the
[2928]Committee wants to present its case and exonerate itself on the
[2929]basis of everything that. is known about the death. of Welch,
[2930]and whether that is s pertinent to the problem of cover.
[2932]Now, we make a recommendation that the CIA shall make an
[2933]effort to place a greater proportion of its officer abroad "
[2934]under nonofficial cover. | It seems like what we need, there! s
[2935]a statement here is that official cover has not. proved to be —
[2936]effective, and if we mention Welsh at all, I think the point we
[2937]mention there is that his name was carried, that while he was
[2938]there supposedly ‘under cover, his name was in fact carried in a
[2939]newspaper, ‘the name of his newspaper had. been carried in.a
[2940]foreign newspaper, and he was living ina house that | was known .
[2941]to be the house. |
[2943]Mr. Kirbow. His true identity was widely kriown.
[2945]Senator Huddleston. We can cite him as an example without -
[2946]indicating why he had been killed, of here is a case that
[2947]everybody knows about, so-called official cover was not. in
[2949]fact very deep cover. There may be other instances that we
[2950]_ TAR Cher rr
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[2957]~ _1 || want to refer to, but if we get into his death at all, I think
[2959]a we have got to present the case, that blowing ‘his cover is not
[2960]3 || necessarity what ‘killed him. “Nobody knows that as of now, so-
[2961]4 far as I know. Nobody knows it wasn't just-a street gang or an
[2962]5 idiot. : |
[2963]6 Mr. Kirbow. It could have been like the Senator, John
[2964]7 “Stennis case, where they buttonholed him in " €ront of his
[2965]8 house and killed him for robbery purposes, | |
[2966]9 ‘Senator Huddleston. We've asked them two or three times
[2968]“10 | here, have we not? | | |
[2969]Ll i Mr. diGenova. Yes, we have. In fact they. don' t know
[2970]12. ' Senator Huddleston. In fact, the last time “Nelson was
[2972]\ | 7 13 here we asked him.
[2974]14 Mr. Aaron. Can I try a fix on this, turning to page 70,
[2976]15 || instead of saying "the career and tragic death of the station
[2978]16: chief," let's just say the "situation of the station chief in
[2980]17 || Athens illustrates the tension. — As the Chief of the Cover |
[2981]‘180 Staff stated, by the vite person becomes a chief of
[2982]| 19. station, there is not a great deal of. cover left ;' ‘leaving in
[2983]20. the rest of that sentence, and then add in here, as you did,
[2985]21 | “Mr. Welch and his predecessor were both: identified and named.
[2986]22 in the local press. rurther, Mr. Welch occupied the same
[2988]23 house." |
[2989]24 Senator Huddleston, Which presumably was known to be.
[2990]25 the house of the station chief.
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[3000]Mt. diGenova. In fact,’ the station chief! s name and
[3001]‘|| address in Athens had been presented, so when he wasiin there
[3002]the address had already » been printed previously.
[3004]Mr. Aaron. Which. was also known.
[3006]Senator Huddleston. Now, if we want to say something about]
[3007]an added dimension to the seriousness on blowing cover or
[3008]cover being diminished, is the situation in the world with
[3009]terrorism or the vulnerability it makes of people --
[3011]Mr. Kirbow. To the unstable. - . |
[3013]Mr. Aarons Well; the point in the testimony,is that
[3014]this was an added danger, but. because they've got a | job’ to
[3015]do, they’ re not going to really do too much about it. It's:
[3016]‘la real risk they are just going to have to. bear. |
[3018]Senator Huddleston. That! s an occupational hazard, but we
[3019]are talking~about how to: protect their cover, and our recommen-
[3020]dation is that they use -- have an official cover.
[3022]Mr. Kirbow. Well, can the staff change the language,
[3024]because we know exactly what you want to do, and-without:
[3025]taking ‘further time, why, don’t we just change: it.
[3026]“Mr. Maxwell. I would just hope that the two quotes after
[3027]the one that David cited) ‘the quote, he, Welch, was asked, the
[3028]‘last quote, we could make the point in a different way because
[3029]the impact of the first quotey ,I think, is this guy was stupid
[3030]ané irresponsible, and I don't think we need::to have any
[3032]implication Like that in. the report, and the second one, I
[3033]TAP crener _
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[3052]pe
[3054]23
[3056]25
[3058]terrorism."
[3060]12. talking to Joe about defining. the small business, and. I think ,
[3062]13
[3064]|| look at Recommendation No. 3, while it doesn' t define what a
[3066]TP SECRET
[3068]an
[3069]t
[3071]47
[3073]think we can make the point that terrorism may constitute a
[3075]greater threat now.
[3076]Senator Huddleston. I think that quote ought to go entirel
[3077]because it does leave the implication. that there was a direct
[3078]link to losing his cover. and his assassination.
[3079]_ Now, we don't know that.
[3080]Mr. Aaron. So just take out the last one.
[3082]Mr. diGenova. But still ‘speak. about the added danger of
[3084]international terrorism. Just stop at the word "international
[3085]Senator Huddleston. Down in the recommendations I' vesbeen . e
[3087]we fairly well understand what’ the concern is, or do we, Joe?
[3089]Mr. diGenova. Senator, I was going “to suggest, if you
[3091]large proprietary is, the Senator was concerned about what -
[3092]was meant by "should be kept small,” and f tried to indicate
[3093]really we are talking about Air America where you had 8000
[3094]employees of the CIA, both in Langley and abroad, and then
[3095]another 8000 employees Of the Air America complex. That is”
[3096]big.
[3098]| “But .Z: think: what: we should say is; organizationally small,
[3099]and organizationally and numerically small, _ because what we are
[3100]really talking about is! when they get big, whether it is in |
[3102]numbers or finances, and larger in terms of people usually mean
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[3126]24
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[3133]larger in terms of finances, also, Then you have both of the
[3134]problems we addressed in the paper, which was the risk of
[3135]unfair competition with private enterprise, and. the risk of
[3136]blowing cover, of compromising security. |
[3138]So I think that --
[3140]Senator Huddleston. I was wondering if it could be
[3142]designed in such a way as care should be taken’ that. it not be
[3144]| any larger than necessary to achieve the objective for which —
[3146]it was established.
[3147]“Mr. Kirbow. Excuse me, Senator. It would not get the
[3148]Air America thing because at the time they needed one twice
[3149]that size. | $
[3150]Senator Huddleston. They needed it that big, that's
[3151]right. | | |
[3152]. Mr. diGenova. | The reason this language is in here is that
[3153]the Agency officials themselves who testified, all of them, ©
[3154]ineluding the DDO, said they would like to have small ones, in
[3155]other words, a small number- of employees, small operation.
[3156]Senator Huddleston. What about their insurance business?
[3157]. Mr. diGenova. “That's kind of an exception, although
[3158]actually that is an example of a lot of money with only a few
[3159]employees. There are only a couple of people that run that
[3161]whole thing, Isenstead and a couple of -- one investor,
[3163]| Istenstead, and an auditor. ‘ There are three men that run that
[3165]‘$32 million complex. So that is-a different animal, really..
[3166]TAT Re
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[3194]TOP SECRET 4g
[3196]Senator Huddleston. So if you are going to use the term
[3197]"small," you 've got to say it from the standpoint ‘of employees
[3198]or resources. —
[3200]Ms. Culbreath, I was just going to suggest. that, since
[3202]‘another of our recommendations suggests annual review of. all
[3204]of these criteria, and since their budgets are going to. have to |
[3206]be included for the oversight committee with review for the
[3208]‘others, and we have got a proposal that the Committee also
[3210]establish guidelines for the approval of the creation of large...
[3211]proprietaries, should these become necessary.
[3212]Perhaps the better thing to do, since these proprietaties TE
[3214]are for a specific need at a specific time, and since we have
[3216]“" got the review procedure, is sort'of trust it~ to the oversight
[3218]committee to see to it that they don't get too big, whatever
[3220]that may be, and leave it to them, maybe just delete that _
[3222]‘second sentence.
[3224]Mr. Kirbow. Well, that's certainly a workable way.
[3225]Senator Huddleston. I don't see how you are going to keep
[3226]that sentence’in- there without: having it..
[3228]-Mr. Aaron. I would also suggest that perhaps in the
[3230]‘section on proprietaries, where we make a comment. about how
[3232]large proprietaries run risks in blowing their cover, we might
[3233]would it be possible, do you think, to make a s finding or make
[3234]an example in regard to Air America?
[3236]Mr. diGenova. Absolutely because they have. conceded
[3237]TA CEePRET
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[3243]11
[3245]le
[3247]14
[3249]15
[3251](165
[3253]1
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[3257]~ 20
[3259]21
[3261]22
[3263]250
[3265]oe 50.
[3266]that's the one that ran all of the problems.
[3267]Senator Huddleston. You do mention that somewhere, don ' t
[3268]. , . fr,
[3269]you?
[3270]Mr. Aaron. It's not mentioned specifically, but it might
[3272]be possible to say, you know, maybe you can put a footnote on .
[3274]the first paragraph. which simply said -~.
[3276]Mr. diGenova. You mean on the findings of page 66 that
[3278]“too often large proprietaries have created unfair" -~~
[3280]“”
[3282]Mr. Aaron. “Unwarranted risks of unfair .competition with
[3284]with ‘private:business: in ‘compromising: their: cover." *You..should
[3286]Say, "for.: example, ‘ “adr Anerica;,':for: example, ‘which: chad’:8, 000°
[3287]employees, "and sa: forth, ran into both of these orobiems.
[3288]Senator Huddleston. I think that would be all right. :
[3289]Mr. Aaron. And then you would have at least some referenc
[3290]to what “large” was.
[3291]Senator Huddleston. Then you've got the review and the.
[3292]oversight. | _— -
[3293]| Mr. inderfurth. So ‘the idea here in the recommendation was
[3294]to take out the second sentence. 7
[3296]_ Mr. ‘diGenova. Yes.
[3298]“Mr. Inderfurth. Why not take out the first as well and -
[3300]just go to Recommendation No. 2 as No. 12.
[3302]Mr. diGenova.. Well, I think -- can I just say this -- tha
[3303]by indirection, approving of an activity is, 7 Suppose, one
[3305]way of doing it. I don! t see anything wrong with stepping up
[3306]Te cram ne ”
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[3338]‘Committees.
[3340]| 52 TOP SECRET. _ $1
[3342]and saying we examined proprietaries, we found them to be --
[3344]they had problems but basically they were all right.
[3346]Mr. Inderfurth. Couldn't that be in the body as well?
[3347]Mr. Kirbow. The one thing we have failed to do on this
[3348]Committee is where we are strongly in favor of, is to speak
[3350]out in a’manner supporting an.agency under otherwise violent
[3352]attack from many| sources, and I think --
[3354]Mr. Inderfurth. I think that. is not true, Charlie. I
[3356]‘think you will find, if you read the findings of Bill Miller
[3358]and ethers wrote/in the first part, it says very strongly, ,
[3360]intelligence is necessary; we need it. oo - :
[3362]a
[3364]Mr. Kirbow.| I'm saying up until now it has been an agenc
[3365]under attack. I think this whole section on foreign and
[3366]military has been to make a balance between past wrongdoing
[3367]and current operations... |
[3369]' The Chairman. There can't be anything wrong with leaving
[3371]the sentence in there.
[3373]Mr. Maxwell. May I raise a question to the second
[3374]recommendation, as to the reason why by statute there would be
[3376]an annual review rather than recommending that to Congressional
[3378]The second part of that is, my-understanding of a number
[3379]of the proprietaries is that they are not operating; and to
[3380]require GAO audit of a whole group of in a sense notional
[3382]organizations may be preempting. the kind of review that the
[3383]TR CF AP
[3386]TOP SECRET 7
[3387]~ 1 oversight committee should be doing rather than setting it out
[3388]a 2 here. It's just] a question. | | 7 |
[3389]3 Mr. _ diGenova. This is a rewrite of my original recommen~
[3390]4 dation, and it is a. good point. It may very well be that that.
[3391]5 is superfluous, if you are considering oversight by a committee.
[3392]6 | Senator Huddleston. The Committee cannot conduct an audit,
[3393]“9 || though. | |
[3394]8 Mr. diGenova. And that was the purpose for the Committee
[3395]9 taking on board independent GAO auditors. - |
[3396]10 Mr. Maxwell). The Committee can request GAO auditors. —
[3397]ll | Mr. Kirbow. Anything. that appears to be on an audit ”
[3398]12g | calls for an audit. | | 3
[3399]- . wh _ Senator Huddleston.” Calls for a GAO audit or gives the .
[3400]14 Committee authority to call for one. | 7
[3401]15 . Mr. diGenova. TI don't think we need a statute. We can
[3402]16 talk about it as part of Congressional oversight. As part of
[3403]“19 the Congressional oversight function, the oversight committee
[3404]18 should review proprietaries annually and where necessary
[3405]19 || conduct audits with the assistance of the General accounting
[3406]20 Office. | | |
[3407]21 | Mr. Kirbow. Here, Mr. Chairman, I think again the point w
[3408]22 || made yesterday, that we should say at least annually, so that:
[3409]“93 they don't put you in a box if you want one every two months -
[3410]—~ : 24 because of circumstances, "at least annually."
[3411]25. | Senator Huddleston. You could add in Section 3, at least —
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[3415]TuP SECRET -
[3416]1 |) there, giving the Committee authority to establish guidelines,
[3417]2 || to establish for large proprietaries, should they become
[3419]S || necessary.
[3421]4 You could also make the statement there that the Committee.
[3423]5 |imay call for a GAO audit periodically. .
[3425]i
[3428]6 Mr. diGenova. So we will rewrite 2 to eliminate the. statut
[3429]7 y- _ Senator Huddleston. Independent GAO audit.
[3430]8 Mr. Aaron. No. 2 is rewritten so it is not required by .
[3432]9 Statute that there be an audit, internal audit?
[3434]10 Mr. Kirbow. No GAO audit.
[3436]11 - Senator Huddleston. The only thing I had in mind of :
[3437]12 || taking out of 2 was just the independent GAO audit being *
[3438]13 required by statute, and leave that to the discretion of
[3439]14 || the Committee, but leave the rest of the review, right?
[3440]15]. Mr. Maxwell. You amend it by statute that an annual
[3442]16 review of all proprietaries?
[3444]47 Senator Huddleston. An internal CIA audit.
[3445]‘18 | Mr. Maxwell, Or would it recommend that, I'm not sure
[3446]‘49 which. |
[3447]‘20 Mr. diGenova. I'm wondering whether it should be done
[3449]21 by statute. ‘Maybe we should, recommend to the oversight
[3450]- po oo
[3451]22 committee that there should be an annual review consisting of
[3452]23 || internal CIA audit. | |
[3453]7" 24 Mr. Maxwell. -An annual report to the oversight committee
[3455]25 |} and such GAO audits as the Committee -~
[3456]. TAP GEener
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[3464]~ * Mr. diGenova. May deem necessary.
[3465]. 2 “Senator Huddleston. That's all right.
[3466]5 Mr. dicenova. And then we could add, as part of its
[3467]4 annual report, the GAO should record all of its intercessions.
[3468]5 That should be -"report." _They record all.of them, so change
[3469]S| "record" to "report". | |
[3470]7 We. can rewrite that.
[3471]8 | Senator Huddleston. Make that a little stronger.
[3472]9 Mr. diGenova. Must report? - | |
[3473]10 ‘Senator Huddleston. Shall be required to report.
[3474]11 . Mr. Aaron. I'm sorry. | | .
[3475]12 . Could we now have-a recapitulation by whomever ‘thinks they
[3476]>) 13 followed this? _ 7 | |
[3477]— 14 - Mr. diGenova. Elliot?
[3478]15 | I defer.
[3479]16 Mr. Maxweil. "There should be an annual review"--.
[3480]lv “Mr. Baron. There is no longer a statute. The Committee
[3482]18° recommends’ that there be, right?
[3483]19 | 7 Mr. Maxwell. o- “a review, at least’ annually, of all
[3485]20 | CIA proprietaries."
[3487]21) | Mr. Aaron. By ‘whom? »
[3489]Re Ms. Culbreath: By the oversight committee.
[3491]£3 “Senator Huddleston. . By the oversight | ‘committee .-
[3493]24 | ur. Maxwell. Well, you! te: defining what the xeview is
[3495]25 || in the next. part. "consisting of-an internal CIA audit and. a
[3496]TA eens ,
[3499]t.
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[3525]Re
[3527]23
[3529]25
[3531]report to the oversight Committee, the CIA shall report," and
[3533]13
[3535]Lore
[3536]ra
[3539]3& SECRET 55
[3541]report to the oversight committee as well as such independent
[3543]GAO audits as the committee shall direct. As part of its
[3545]i
[3547]annual report to ‘the oversight Committee" --- "As part of its
[3548]then the rest of ‘the sentence, “all its intercessions on :
[3549]behalf of its proprietaries." | |
[3551]Myr. Aaron. “May I just make a quick editorial fix? "The
[3552]Committee recommends the overight Committee conduct an. annual
[3553]review of all proprietaries consisting of an internal CIA
[3554]audit and report to the oversight Committee."
[3556]Mr. Kirbow. No, the Committee cannot conduct a GAO
[3557]audit. They can insist that that's part of the report that-is |’
[3558]presented to it. — | — |
[3560]Mr. Aaron. | That's it, consisting of a report to the over-
[3561]sight Committee of an internal CIA audit, is that rigt? |
[3563]Mr. Kirbow. "What you are trying to do is to require
[3565]the CIA to reveiw it, to conduct a CIA audit, and to report
[3567]fully all of the review entailed.
[3569]Mr. diGenova. Not just the audit themselves. There are
[3571]certain operational details you are going. to want, to know about
[3573]also, not just financial security.
[3575]Mr. Kirbow. Mr. Chairman, let us rewrite that one. We
[3576]will include it. |
[3578]Senator Huddleston. “Well, you see, you could combine
[3579]dvand 2 together, ‘since we are just going to use one sentence,
[3581][ TAR CEeRer
[3583]HW 50955 Docld:32423513 Page 58
[3586]10
[3588]“11
[3590]Le.
[3592]14
[3594]15
[3596]16.
[3598]1?
[3599]18
[3600]19
[3601]20
[3603]21
[3607]25. |
[3609]25
[3611]the first sentence in. No. 1, and after we say the external
[3613]internal CIA audit and all intercessions that the CIA may have
[3615]13
[3617]is the budget presentation that's being. referred to under _-
[3619]this. .
[3621][.
[3623]56
[3625]and:internal controls, the oversight committee should require a
[3627]annual report of all proprietaries by the CIA, including an
[3629]made on behalf of proprietaries.
[3631]‘Mr, diGenovat That's it, that's all in‘one sentence. We
[3632]can fix that. |
[3634]Mr. Aarons. All right. We'll take Joe's fix.
[3636]Mr. Kirbow. In three I am not sure what you mean,.."In’ the
[3637]DCI's budget presentation." That almost. has a word: of art
[3639]connotation in the Senate... A budget presentation is. that
[3643]thing which the Secretary of Defense and the Director ‘of the
[3644]CIA makes to the Appropriations Committee.
[3645]Mr. G@iGenova. We are talking about an authorization,
[3647]aren't we, an annual. authorization here?
[3649]‘Mr. -Inderfurth. Look on. page 26 and you'll see the
[3650]definition of that under (b). The DCI. shall have responsibilit
[3651]for preparing the budget of the national intelligence program
[3653]for presentation. to. the President and the Congress. This
[3655]Mr. Kirbow. Well, now you come _to the real question,
[3656]proprietaries being listed in | the DCI's budget presentation.
[3657]Most of. his proprietaries neither use any money up nor make
[3659]any money or anything. They are just shelf items.
[3660]Th CRORE
[3662]HW 50955 Docld:32423513 Page 59
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[3668]12.
[3672]15
[3674]16
[3677]18
[3678]19
[3679]20
[3683]23
[3685]25
[3687]‘as a line item, for example.
[3689]to know, even though this is not going to be published, where ©
[3691]TOP SecRey ae
[3693]Here again you come to the’ notional.
[3695]Mr. diGenova. No, no, Charles, because: the point they
[3696]made during our review out there was that never have the
[3697]proprietaries appeared in the budget presentation. They have
[3699]been hidden, and the object is to identify them in the: budget.
[3701]Mr. Maxwell. One suggestion might be, be listed, that
[3702]implies a list of proprietaries.
[3704]Senator Huddleston. Where does this list go?
[3706]Mr. Kirbow. What you want to do is to require them to
[3707]include a discussion of the proprietaries in his annual report
[3709]to the oversight committee is what you want to do, isn't
[3711]it, because they don't have that now. They don't report to"
[3713]the Armed services:Committee. They only report to -Appropriatio s.
[3714]Senator Huddleston. “How would it be listed in the budget:
[3716]under your proposition here, Joe? . |
[3717]Mr. diGenova. Well, I'm just assuming == well, I am
[3719]assuming in terms of oversight the Committee is going to want
[3721]this money is. going and what it is going to’be used for,
[3722]if they are going to authorize it.
[3723]Mr. Aaron. I think the term really should be --
[3724]Mr. Kirbow. I think it ought to be more than in the
[3725]budget. |
[3726]Mr. diGenova. I know that's. not™ just what. they are going
[3728]Te) CEC PET.
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[3732]10
[3733]11
[3734]12
[3735]13
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[3737]15
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[3740]18
[3741]19
[3742]20
[3743]21
[3747]23
[3749]aa 24
[3751]25
[3753]‘the DCI's budget presentation to the Appropriations Committee
[3755]TOP SECRET 58
[3757]to. be asking, but the thrust of this was to’ make sure that
[3758]proprietaries found their way’ -into the budget, and that senators
[3759]knew what they were authorizing when they authorized the budget.
[3761]Now, how it gets in there, I am not a budget: expert.
[3763]Mr. Kirbow. That is what I am trying to supply here becaus
[3764]in this process there is a procedure that when you say there shal
[3765]be authorizing legislation, where the line items are discussed.
[3766]before the authorizing committee and not before the budget -
[3767]committee, which is the appropriations committee, and if you
[3768]require that he discuss or report the annual operation of the
[3769]proprietaries in his annual report to the oversight committee,
[3770]you will accomplish what: you are trying to dao, and not exciude
[3771]it only for the presentation before the Appropriations Committe
[3773]Mr. Maxwell. Could I try a fix on this?
[3775]Mr. diGenova. You are invited. |
[3777]Mr. Maxwell. The oversight committee should require that
[3779]and the oversight committee_include a specific discussion of .
[3780]the financial aspects of CIA proprietaries. I mean, we are
[3781]trying to bring them out and see what the impact is on the
[3782]budget, where do they. fit in.
[3783]Senator Huddleston. can they do that, though, without
[3784]identifying the proprietary and where it is located and whateve
[3785]Mr. diGenova. They have indicatea they could.
[3787]Mr. Aaron. “Jim, Taylor, when he was. here talking to the
[3788]TAP EPR EY
[3790]HW 50955 DoclId: 32423513 Page 61
[3793]w
[3795]Te>P SECRET
[3797]1. Committee, talked about how they are beginning to -- drawing:a
[3798]2 | way to work in the proprietaries so that they can both identify
[3799]3 || them and indicate their cash flow implications for the budget,
[3801]4 |'and in effect --
[3803]5 _ Senator Huddleston. What would you have proprietaries --
[3804]6 7 Mr. Aaron. Proprietaries, income and outgo.
[3806]9 . Mr. Kirbow. But that would never be published, Senator.
[3808]8 (If you want to accomplish what you are suggesting here,
[3810]9 that they report the cash status or the financial status, you
[3811]“10 add that additional sentence to this combined 1 and 2 up here
[3812]qd that the Senator just proposed a minute ago, and indicate that
[3814]12 || that report should also include the financial status or the -- |:
[3816]13 Senator Huddleston. But you do that with the audit, don't
[3817]14 you, the internal audit? . .
[3818]15 . Mr. Kirbow.. Well, in fact you do, in’fact you do.
[3820]16 Mr. Aaron. Well, I think. the. point -- maybe I*m not
[3821]W captioning this properly, Joe, but I think the point here is
[3822]1g | that proprietaries either earn money or cost money, sometimes
[3823]19 a little of both, and it has an impact, therefore, on the
[3824]ag |) overall CIA budget, particularly in the past when income from
[3825]21 ‘the proprietaries could be placed in either the contingency —
[3826]-p2 || Feserve or used to finance, in effect, operational purposes
[3827]| 23. of the proprietary. In other words, Air America was earning
[3828]-_ , 24 || Money on its operations, and yet it was costing them more
[3830]25 because they were engaged in certain risky operations. In
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[3835]‘10
[3836]li
[3840]14
[3841](is
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[3846]19
[3848]20
[3850]21
[3851]22
[3853]23
[3855]24.
[3857]25
[3859]‘would include the cost of some of their operational purposes.
[3861]of its sort of macrobudget implications in terms of up or down, |
[3863]13
[3865]TOP SECRET © |
[3867]In effect, the proprietary was earning money which was
[3868]financing the proprietary organization. . |
[3870]Mr. Kirbow. But they can no longer do that. What they
[3871]earn now must go into the general Treasury. |
[3873]Mr. Aaron. No, gross earnings do not go into the general
[3875]Treasury. Their net, and part of the cost of doing business
[3877]I think the point of this inclusion here was to see if
[3878]one could require in connection with the budget, not just in
[3880]general, with an audit of what it-does specifically, but in
[3882]terms of the entire activity of the CIA, to get a spelling out 2
[3884]and secondly, its budget implications for the certain categorie
[3885]of operations which were involved, such as, if you are talking»
[3886]about the conduct of the support for the activities in Laos.
[3887]Mr. diGenova. Paramilitary operations. |
[3889]_ .Mr. Kirbow. Well, leave it like it is if that is what’ you
[3890]are trying to do, because they will be sure to, report it-to
[3891]the Appropriations Committee in excruciating detail, but they
[3892]won't report it to the authorization committee unless they ©
[3893]require it to get money. | |
[3895]. So if you want to leave it a detailed budget, their
[3897]presentation to the budget committee, , this language will get
[3898]that done. _ |
[3900]7 Senator Huddleston. Well, what if you said something like}
[3904]“HW 50955 DocId: 32423513 Page 63
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[3909]12
[3911]14
[3912]15
[3913]16
[3915]Vy
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[3919]19
[3921]20
[3923]21
[3925]22
[3927]23
[3929]( Ra
[3931]25
[3933]13
[3935]TOP SECRET
[3937]this, furthermore, or adding to that, the fiscal impact or
[3938]the budgetary impact of the proprietaries should be included
[3939]or defined in the DCI's budget presentation.
[3941]Mr. Maxwell. Specifically discussed?
[3943]Mr, diGenova. That language would mean it's included in
[3944]his presentation in some way because the allusion that David |
[3945]made to Jim Taylor is that they are beginning to put it into
[3946]their budget presentation. I know ‘that is a term of art.
[3948]Senator Huddleston. | That eliminates any idea of listing
[3949]them. | _ |
[3951]Mr. diGenova. “Elliot's point also about the authorization |:
[3952]committee should be added in there. |
[3954]Senator Huddleston. We've got so much money invested,
[3955]and 33 money made money and 40 made money for a net gain of
[3956]so and so.
[3958]| Mr. Maxwell. And you should have some notion of that
[3959]and the problem was that you weren't able to get ahold of it.
[3961]Senator Huddleston. And we sold two or three of them for
[3962]this amount. | |
[3964]“Mr. diGenova. That is the whole issue of their visibility
[3965]in the budget, the whole question. |
[3967]Senator Huddleston. Well, where does that visibility
[3969]disappear?
[3971]Mr. diGenova. Well, before they never showed. up.
[3973]. Mr. Maxwell. Before you had the. covert: action.
[3974]TAR CEP REF
[3976]HW 50955 DocId: 32423513 Page 64
[3979]g || with that at this point trying to define it properly and how
[3981]9 it should be presented... I mean, I really don! t - think we know.
[3983]10 | They have an intention to do it-because they recognize that--
[3985]Senator Huddleston. Well, ‘where Wilh. it disappear.
[3987]Mr. Aaron. Proprietaries as a category?
[3989]Mr.
[3991]Mr.
[3993]2 Mow? It. won't come to the authorization committee and the
[3995]3 ||) appropriations committee. I mean, it won't be a line item.
[3997]Maxwell.
[3999]6 | of operational support in covert action.
[4001]‘Aaron. Not necessarily. I think. they. are struggling
[4003]ll potentially it is a source of real question as to how much
[4004]12 || Money is being spent, on clandestinc activities that is self~
[4006]13 || generated by the Agency because of its proprietary
[4008]14 || activities.
[4010]15
[4012]16 the Committee had looked at this broadly, was aware of possible
[4013]7 budget and authorization implications of various entities,
[4015]18 including proprietaries, and that it wanted to Say something
[4017]20
[4019]- gl just worried about if you say you expose proprietaries too: much,|.
[4021]20
[4023]25
[4025]AW 50955 Docld: 32423513
[4027]’-Mr.
[4029]ig about that.
[4031]Senator Huddleston. Well, I will agree with that. I am
[4033]Mr.
[4035]Mr.
[4037]'. My.
[4039]Page
[4041]diGenova.
[4043]22 you are exposing cover.
[4045]Aaron. Well, this is internal.. This is classified.
[4047]diGenova.
[4049]Maxwell.
[4051]65
[4053]It was not necessarily anything dramatic.
[4055]TOP SECRET 62
[4057]I would assume it is going to be a subsection
[4059]The impact, Senator, was also to show that
[4061]“This is not public.
[4063]Well, I think the language the Senator
[4064]TAR CF eR EF
[4066]- 10
[4068]ill
[4070]12.
[4072]135
[4073]14
[4074]15
[4075]16
[4076]17
[4077]18
[4078]- . 19
[4080]20
[4082]al.
[4086]23
[4088]mo oa
[4090]25
[4092]TOP SECRET
[4094]63
[4096]suggested got to that.
[4098]Mr. Aaron. Well, let me see if I can read out what I would
[4099]propose along the lines I think we discussed. |
[4101]The oversight committee should require that the fiscal
[4102]impact of proprietaries be made clear in the DCI's. budget
[4103]presentation to the oversight committee. “te you want to add
[4104]the appropriations committee, you can, . but I think the point is
[4105]that that happens. | |
[4107]Mr. Kirbow. If you'll listen just one minute, Mr. Miller
[4109]knows and I believe the Senator knows that "in the Senate there
[4111]is a formal budget presentation: *:. made to the Appropriations :
[4113]Committees." They are not made elsewyere. Reports are made
[4115]to oversight committees on the status and all of these other
[4117]things, and if they request any money for those proprietaries,
[4119]they would request that before the authorizing committee. If
[4121]you are just trying: to accomplish getting it made known to the
[4123]oversight committee, drop the word "budget presentation" and
[4124]adopt the common usage of the annual report of the Agency or
[4125]of the DCI. | Oo
[4127]| -But that is kind of a word of art. Those are words of
[4129]art in the Senate, and they will seize on it because today
[4131]they don't de it for anybody else but the Appropriations
[4133]Committee.
[4134]Senator Huddleston. I think that's reasonable..enough. —
[4136]It ought to be clear,
[4137]TA Ree r ee
[4139]HW 50955 Docld:32423513 Page 66
[4142]LO
[4146]12
[4148]C | 13
[4150]14
[4151]15
[4152]16
[4154]“1?
[4158]19
[4159]"20
[4161]21
[4163]22
[4165]235
[4167]( 24
[4169]25
[4171]| should make their presentation a part of the DCI's report . &
[4173]way this reads, I would have or would be opposed to it because
[4175]TP SECRET 64
[4177]_Mr. Aaron. Let me try another fix here because I'm
[4179]not too_sure.
[4181]The oversight committee shall require the fiscal impact of
[4182]proprietaries in the CIA's budget be made clear in the Director'
[4183]authorization presentation, or what phrase is that? In the |
[4184]Director's what? . |
[4186]Mr. Kirbow. — The pet's annual report to the appropriate
[4187]oversight committee. | |
[4189]Senator Huddleston. The DCI's annual report. _
[4191]Mr. Kirbow. The Agency would not report separately... They.
[4193]to the appropriate oversight committee.
[4195]Mr. Maxwell. While we are on that, could I, on No.. 6, -we
[4196]have already, I thought, by statute prevented any covert action
[4197]being funded other than by (a) appropriation to a covert action
[4198]budget; or (b) the contingency reserve.
[4200]Mr. diGenova. That's right.
[4202]Mx. Maxwell. D oes that make No. 6 redundant?
[4204]Mr. Kirbow. Yes. | |
[4206]Senator Huddleston. ' The only comment I would make is.
[4207]that the other is not an accomplished fact yet. This might
[4208]be accepted and that might not. | | |
[4210]Mr. Maxwell. Well, the reason I say that is that the
[4212]it provides an exception with the approval of the gersight
[4214]Te re I ee
[4216]HW 50955 ‘ Docld: 32423513 Page OF
[4218]TOP SECRET =
[4220]1 committees, when we want, I think, to be able to go to the
[4222]re ' 9 | Congress and say, we recommend most strenuously that only these |
[4223]3 || two methods be used for funding, rather than providing a third
[4224]4 || method. and someone says, well, maybe we- should have a fourth |
[4225]5 || method, and I would like to go with the strongest possible
[4226]6 recommendation in regard to the earlier statutory requirement
[4227]q | that it only be by specific ppropriation to. covert action and
[4228]8 | the contingency reserve fund. |
[4229]9 Mr. Kirbow. Otherwise, Mr. Chairman, we will stand a ;
[4230]10 || chance of getting the other’ amended,. to allow. the: oversight.
[4231]ia | committee. to allow it.
[4232]12 Mr. diGenova. Why don't we say this by statute, and then |
[4233]a 13 have the rest of the sentence an addendum which would just
[4234]14 allude to the fact that funding is to be accomplished to the
[4235]15 || method we set out if you want to eliminate it.
[4236]16 |: Well, this was the problem that was raised, or an issue
[4237]17 that was, raised during the study, and this is set in here
[4238]18 for that reason. It can easily be removed if it is inconsisten
[4239]19 with another recommendation of ‘the Committee.
[4240]20 . Mr. Aaron. Well, we have two or three different earlier.
[4241]21 provisions that relate to this. The first is that re-
[4242]202 programming authority, defining reprogramming authority, the
[4243]23 possibility that something used. for a program covert action Xx
[4244]ae 2A which involves a proprietary that generates a certain amount
[4246]95 || of money, can be used for program Yo:
[4248]Ce pet ae A eel atl so conden nd
[4250]HW 50955 Docld:32493513 Page 66 .
[4252]TOP SECRET
[4256]1 | The second issue is we have proposed that covert actions
[4258]2 ||}be funded either by line item or by the contingency reserve.
[4259]3 The third thing we proposed is that the contingency reservel
[4261]4-i\be replenished, if I am correct, only by appropriation, concur-
[4263]5 | rence of the oversight Committee.
[4264]6 47 _ Now, what this in effect does, I think the question er Be
[4265]7 ll he's driving at is, what do you do with the profits. of a.
[4267]8 proprietary organization? ‘Can you put it in the contingency
[4270]10 ‘If so, our other recommendation would pick up the notion
[4272]11 ‘that it can only be done with the concurrence of the Committee. |
[4273]12. = Is there some other purpose, direct transfer? Well, :
[4274]C : 413 presumably one of the limitations on reprogramming _- and this
[4275]14 would be a fair point .to make -here, as part of its definition
[4276]15. of limitations on reprogramming, ait is recommended that the
[4277]16 || oversight committee proscribe the allocation of profits from
[4278]17 | any proprietary to a covert operation without their express
[4279]1g || consent. And this is really kind of -- if it doesn't go. throug
[4280]19 the contingency reserve, it really goes to the question of
[4281]20. reprogramming, |
[4282]21 | Now, I realize that we have said that our other recommen-:
[4283]29. dation by implication would prohibit this, but it is only by
[4284]23 | implication, I would. think. | |
[4285]“Y | 24 Mr. Maxwell. My sense is that by providing this --
[4287]25 ' Mr. Aaron. You kind of create a channel. —
[4288]TAR CtefenAeT
[4290]HW 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 69
[4292]JR
[4296]Gr
[4298]10
[4301]12
[4303]14
[4304]15
[4305]16
[4307]17
[4309]19
[4310]20
[4311]21
[4312]22
[4313]25
[4318]1 aid the, increase the temptation for the proprietaries to try
[4320]yet.
[4322]1s there is a covert operation. it is a secret operation at the
[4324]replenish the contingency reserve or to operate a covert or
[4326]TOP SECRET |
[4327]Mr. Maxwell. ‘It's not that you create a channel, but you
[4329]to generate funds, and secondly, I think it is the easiest way
[4330]for the oversight committee to have a handle on covert action,
[4331]and particularly its funding, is to say there are two ways you
[4333]can do it. You can do‘it either by the regular appropriation
[4335]process, or you can do it through the contingency reserve fund. |.
[4336]But if you start to build in the ways that the contingency
[4337]reserve fund can be replenished, I think people -- I think ther
[4338]may be a loss of control. | |
[4340]Mr. Aaron. Well, this is a way it can be replenished,
[4342]and this is not prohibited by anything we have recommended ©
[4344]Mr. Maxwell. I understand that, but I guess I was trying
[4345]to clean up the organizational structure.
[4346]Mr. Kirbow. I think this is the problem with recommending
[4348]the legislation piecemeal, is that the insurance company out
[4350]agency conducted: in’ that manner;, and if you allow. only. .
[4351]covert operation: to be: ‘funded only from: the contingency
[4352]reserve, whatever ‘monies they generate will have to go back int
[4354]the general treasury because they cannot--be used to either
[4356]to perform a covert function or operation.
[4358]So they are not even -~ they can re not only use the. profit
[4360]Te. PR Pam Ee
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[4365]Sy
[4367]TftiP SECKET 68
[4369]1 | to do that, they cannot use the general monies that they
[4371]~.
[4373]2 generate from that to conduct. They will have to fund that.
[4374]3 insurance program in the contingency reserve.
[4375]4 | Mr. diGenova. No, not at ail, because it is not a covert
[4376]5 . operation. That is -not being use to fund a covert operation.
[4377]6 It has been used to pay pensions and annuities to foreign .
[4378]7 ||/agents. It's not a covert operation.
[4379]8 Senator Huddleston. Agents are covert. If you restrict
[4380]9 | it to use of funds, ‘if it is not already done, no funds
[4381]10 | derived from the operations of proprietaries shall be used for
[4382]1i any other purpose except the operation of the proprietary and
[4383]12] any profits shall be returned to the general treasury.
[4385]) 13 It precludes it, doesn't it? —
[4387]14 Mr. Aaron. That would solve the problem, yes.
[4388]15 Mr. Kirbow. And that's what they are doing today. by ~
[4390]16 | regulation. |
[4392]17 ' Senator Huddleston. Can we say that?
[4394]18 Mr. Aaron. “I don't see why tot.
[4396]19 | Mr. diGenova..Well, we say that in our recommendation No.
[4397]' 90 Mr. Aaron. Well, this says --
[4399]“51 Mr, diGenova. . That deals with terminations and liqui-
[4401]22 || dations.
[4402]23 Mr. Aaron. This is liquidations, and terminations. This
[4403]Ve . 24 || is not just operations.
[4405]25 ' Mr, Maxwell. There is one problem, a slight problem. Tha
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[4411]TOP SECRE 69
[4412]1 || i8 that some of the profits are reinvested. It is not that they
[4413]‘ 2 take everything over or break even. |
[4415]3 Senator Huddleston. Well, I didn't say that. I said all
[4416]4 | funds not needed in the operation. | | |
[4418]5 Mr. Bader. Perhaps, Mr. Chairman, you could amend No. 4
[4419]5 ‘to all returns of funds or profits not needed for the operation.|
[4420]y . Mr. diGenova. There you go, whether from liquidations,
[4421]8 terminations or profits exceed for the needs of the operation
[4422]9 of the individual proprietaries should be remitted to the U.S.
[4423]1o ; Treasury.
[4425]11 Senator Huddleston. You can work that out so that it woul
[4426]- be understood that there is a need to keep a certain reserve
[4428]) 13 back. |
[4429]7 14 Mr. diGenova. We will unite 4 and 6.
[4431]45 Senator Huddleston. — That's all but 5.
[4432]16 | Mr. diGenova. 5 is only about the Department of Justice
[4434]. 1 being. notified as to the disposition.
[4436]1s Mr. Aaron. Now, we have two recommendations with respect ©
[4437]“19 to cover. The first is just to recommend that the Department o
[4438]20 || State stop. publishing data which makes it possible to identify
[4439]91 ‘people under cover,
[4440]7 Mr. Kirbow. Well, just a minute. On No. 5 I do have
[4441]23 || 4 question here.
[4443]\ - pa The Agency doesn't sign off on any other disposal of
[4444]25 United States properties and military bases or major edifices or
[4445]. TS PA TR
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[4451]1 | anything like that. ~
[4452]- | | a
[4453]2 Mr. diGenova. And the reason for that is every other
[4454]a government .agency is ‘subject. to the rules.and statutes of ‘the :!
[4455]4 Féderal Disposal ‘of Property Act, and the CIA isn't.
[4456]5 Mr. Kirbow. Do you see this could be an abuse area?
[4457]6 Mr. diGenova. I could see the Attorney General, if he |
[4458]7, knew that Admiral. Raborn or some other Director is putting
[4459]8 pressure on the CIA to dispose of a piece of property, would
[4460]9 want to know about that, since they are not subject to the
[4461]10 Federal Disposal of Property Act like every other government
[4462]11 || agency is. |
[4463]12 | _ o£ don't think == I think the record clearly shows, and
[4464]~ 13 || the General Counsel indicated that he was: not opposed to having
[4465]| 14 outside review of their disposals, provided .it was classified
[4466]15 or done ina classified way since: they have never had any
[4467]16 problem, |
[4468]10 Mr. Kirbow,. What you are doing here, approving the final
[4469]18 | disposition of disposal, if you are intending that he review
[4470]_ 19 the disposal process or participate in it, he wouldn't have. known
[4471]99 || about Raborn. He wouldn't have known about Raborn at all
[4472]91 because he didn't dispose of it to his client, and this would
[4473]22 not pick up that kind of abuse that you have discussed here. |
[4474]23 Mr. diGenova. Suppose it. had been disposed of to Admiral
[4475]“~ 24° Raborn, and they knew about it, and the AG said, why is this
[4477]25 being ‘done? It would raise a red flag which would not otherwis
[4478]FAR Fe Per .
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[4488]14
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[4508]TOP SECRET
[4510]be raised since the Federal Disposal of Property Act would not
[4511]have applied which would have flagged that legally. to any other:.
[4512]agency.
[4514]Mr. Aaron. It would also strengthen the Agency's hand. to .
[4515]resist those Purposes, to just simply; say, hey, this has to be
[4516]signed out by the Attorney General. This isn't going to work.
[4518]It seems to me that what we do need here —
[4520]Mr. Kirbow. If what we are trying to do is get his
[4521]participation, just having him approve it doesn't get his
[4522]participation, I think we ought to put that in if that's what
[4523]we want to do.
[4525]Mr. diGenova. I think the word “approve” is «wrong. te i
[4527]should be "participate." The sale or disposition of any CIA
[4529]proprietary “-
[4530]. Senator Huddleston. | How are you going to make it "partici-
[4532]Mr. diGenova. I think the word we want is "consultation."
[4533]senator Huddleston. I think what-we are trying to do is
[4534]replace what other agencies have to do in an overt: way and:
[4535]under a specific law, which this agency is not under, so it willl
[4537]have some assurance that it is being done in a. proper way.
[4538]Mr.. Kirbow.. T ‘don't | disagree with the AG being in on the
[4539]act, but this one gets. /you participation on. Aisposition,
[4541]Senator Huddleston. Well, figure a way to. get it done.
[4543]Mr... Aaron. Well, what I wanted to say was I would like to.
[4544]Te CR ee
[4546]HY 50955. Docld: 32423513 Page f4
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[4573]| requirement for CIA, or for the AG participation.
[4575], we decide to delete the opening -paragraph?.
[4577]is in brackets. Recommendation (a), that the CIA make a
[4579]TOP SECRET r2
[4581]note that back on page 67 where we have struck out the reference
[4582]to Mr. Raborn and intend to expand on the pressures having
[4583]been brought to bear, part of that expansion should include
[4585]a statement’ that there is no -- or that the Federal Disposal
[4586]of Property Act does not apply to the. CIA, which is a crucial
[4587]aspect. |
[4589]Mr. Kirbow. They are exempt, and then bring in.the
[4591]Mr. Aaron. And that includes that.
[4592]Mr. diGenova. So we will rewrite 5 to make it consultatio
[4593]| Ms .. Culbreath.. David, on. cover, may I just say,/didn't
[4594]co a
[4595]Mr. Aaron: You're right, you're right. -
[4596]- Ms. Culbreath. We were just going to list the recommen~
[4597]dations. |
[4598]Mr. diGenova. Yeah, we already said that.
[4599]Mr. ‘Aaron. NOw, we have a recommendation that the
[4600]CIA should make an effort to place a-greater proportion of its
[4602]officers abroad. under nonofficial cover, and that recommendatio
[4604]greater effort to place a greater proportion of its officers
[4605]abroad, “under: nonof ficial cover" is in brackets.
[4606]| Senator Huddleston. That relates to the Welch discussion. |
[4607]Mr. Aaron. It relates to the Welch discussion and it
[4609]relates to the difficulties and problems of official cover.
[4610]TAP KeerarT
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[4639]abroad under nonofficial cover, and the: Agency does not see
[4641]you pay is you don't have a lot of operational freedom. You
[4643]‘|; have to work hard at your regular job and you don't do a whole
[4645]“point. t mean, we ought to wait until the staff director~
[4647]reservations about that in terms of its relationship to a
[4649]TeoP SECRET 73
[4651]Mr. Bader. How do you feel about this, Joe?
[4652]Mr. diGenova. This is a problem because just like the man
[4653]Says, cover is a relative thing. I don't think there is
[4655]anything wrong with saying that the CIA, that they should make
[4657]an effort to put -- really not much of a 2 recommendation -- shoul
[4659]make an effort to place a greater proportion of its officers |
[4661]that in this form, wouldn't view that as ; a bad thing. They thi
[4662]cover is, if it is deep and effective, is okay. They just say
[4663]well, their answer this way, well, you: know; you don' t do
[4665]much work under deep, nonofficial cover, and one of the prices
[4667]a
[4669]heck of a lot.
[4671]‘The recommendation, the way! it is phrased, is sort of a
[4672]push to them to see if. they. can find better ways. It also
[4673]probably tells them that maybe. they should use proprietaries
[4674]abroad a little more, which are very, very efficient, according
[4675]to Eric, according to both things, operations and cover.
[4677]Mr. Aaron, I think we have got to be careful on this
[4681]returns because I think he has a particular interest in this
[4682]suggestion, but we are talking about moving more people. into
[4684]unofficial cover. I would like to express my own persional
[4686]TAR Crener
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[4717]number of things that the Connittee has already decided to do.
[4718]| Senator Huddleston. We are eliminating a lot of cover.
[4720]Mr. _ Aaron. That's the first thing.
[4722]Now, the second thing -- and these are nonoffocial cover _
[4723]categories. The second. thing that we are doing is trying to
[4724]place somewhat greater authority in the hands of the ambassador
[4725]and the missions overseas to know what is going on. That is
[4726]something that they can do when it is in. their house. Its is
[4728]something ‘that's extremely difficult for them to do when it is
[4730]off in the forest someplace.
[4732]So it is -~ and as Joe just said, it looks like a recommen F
[4733]dation to use more proprietaries, in part because it is inf the
[4734]same section, but in reality because that is one of the ways
[4735]they might do it, ana T just wonder how much we have thought
[4736]through for ourselves where the balance of our recommendations
[4737]lie, particularly since most of the stuff is derived baSically
[4739]from operational experience anyway.
[4741]There was a period, toward the end of Mr. Bissell's
[4743]‘career;in the Agency, or maybe shortly thereafter, when they
[4744]began to try to put more people in unofficial cover, and it
[4746]wasn't a very good experience for them.
[4748], Mr. Kirbow. David, how does the ambassador lose control,
[4749]whether it is official or unofficial, except that he has got
[4750]them in his compound? Itlis an official. government function
[4752]over which he has absolute control.
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[4778]‘anda hard place because we know the official cover is we cover
[4782]anything that they can convince an oversight committee in the
[4784]iar SECKEL 7
[4786]Senator Huddleston. But if they keep coming to the
[4787]embassy to check with hin, they blow their cover, unless they do}
[4788]it by telephone. | . |
[4790]Mr. Kirbows Well, I don't think they should go to the
[4791]embassy at all. I think their contact should become covert.
[4793]Mr. diGenova. _Well, we're sort of caught between a rock
[4795]it best. .
[4797]Senator Huddleston. Well, maybe we could approach in
[4798]that one way is to ‘improve official covert.
[4800]Mr. Aaron. That is the one recommendation we make here,
[4801]but the Limits on that are very - -- they are ‘just structural,
[4802]like.. |
[4804]Senator Huddleston. It seems to me like we are in an
[4805]area that we know a lot less about than the people who are.
[4806]in the business.
[4808]Mr. Aaron:. That is sort of my feeling.
[4810]Mx. Kixbow. We are asking them to proscribe against
[4812]fugure is essential. in the trend. of that. time..
[4813]Senator Huddleston. Shoulda! t we say that the time has "
[4815]Be
[4817]come for a ‘whole review of cover to see whether \ or not they
[4818]ean find some better ways?
[4819]Mr. Maxwell. We might say that the first - ‘large scale
[4821]study in 48 and '49 of the Agency, done “by Mr. Dulles, among
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[4857]others, , recommended very strongly that, there be more unofficial
[4858]cover. — |
[4860]I think the. Agency has been under ‘considerable pressure
[4861]throughout its existence to do that, and as Joe pointed out
[4862]there are certain limits to what it has been. able to do.
[4864]- Senator Huddleston. Well, I think rather than suggest
[4866]what ought to be more or less official or. unofficial cover, the |’
[4868], Whole:-matter ought to be studied innediately by the Agency, and
[4870]see if they can find some new ways consistent with all: the
[4871]restraints and prohibitions that the Committee has placed. upon
[4872]them. a | - Co , f
[4873](General 1aughter.) —_
[4874]Senator Huddleston. All right, .where does that leave us -
[4875]here today as we close out today’ s session?
[4877]Mr. Kirbow. Mr. Chairman, might I suggest that in keeping
[4878]with an earlier discussion today, that because it is a summary
[4879]of findings as well as an introduction, that perhaps while
[4880]we are nice and fresh, tomorrow we might take up. the intro-
[4882]ductory section prepared by the Staff Director, so that if we
[4884]change it much, we’ either make the rest of our ~~
[4888]7 Senator Huddleston. Have any of the other members seen it
[4890]at all, Bill? | |
[4891]Mr. Miller. Just Senator Mathias.
[4893]' Senator Huddleston. ALL right, do you want to meet at
[4895]10:00-o'clock in the morning?
[4896]. TAD CREPE:
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[4903]1 Mr. Aaron. Are we going to terminate now? .
[4904]2 W. Senator Huddleston. They've got a vote going and it's 5:10.
[4905]oo, Yt think we'd better. | |
[4906]a (Whereupon, at 5:10 o'clock pem., the Subcommittee
[4907]| recessed subject to the call of the Chair.)
[4909]10 |
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