[1]167-10011-10083 | 2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992 |
[3]Date: 10/06/93
[5]Page:1
[6]JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM
[7]Bees IDENTIFICATION FORM
[8]. AGENCY INFORMATION
[9]AGENCY : SSCIA
[10]RECORD NUMBER : 157-10011- 10083
[11]RECORDS SERIES :
[12]AGENCY FILE NUMBER :
[13]DOCUMENT INFORMATION
[14]ORIGINATOR : ROCKEFELLER COMMISSION
[15]FROM :
[16]TO:
[17]TITLE
[18]DESPOSITION/TRANSCRIPT OF|STURBITTS, WILLIAM C.
[20]PAGES : 114 . '
[21]SUBJECTS :
[22]-_ OF STURBITTS, WILLIAM C.
[23]DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT
[24]CLASSIFICATION : S
[25]RESTRICTIONS : REFERRED
[26]CURRENT STATUS : P
[28]DATE OF LAST REVIEW :
[29]OPENING CRITERIA :
[31]COMMENTS :
[32]SSCI Box 292, Folder 1
[34]HW 50955 Docld: 32203851
[36]09/29/93
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[79]4055 Chain Bridge Rd, 22030
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[91]5 - ination by Counsel
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[98]- (AFTERNOON SESSION Page 58)
[100]s Willian C. Sturbitts (Resumedc) 58
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[146]WARD & PAUL
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[190]51
[192]SECRET
[194]PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
[196]ON CIA ACTIVITICS
[198]Langley, Virginia
[199]Wednesday, April 16, 1975
[200]Deposition of WILLIAM C. STURSITTS, called for
[201]examination by Counsel for the Commission on CIA Activities,
[202]the witness being duly sworn by Thomas C. Hogan, a Notary
[203]Public in and for the State of Virginia, in the offices of the
[204]Central Intelligence Agency, Langley, Virginia, at 9:59
[205]o'clock a.m., on Wednesday, April 16, 1975, the proccedings
[206]being taken down in stenotype by Ruth G. McClenning, and
[207]transcribed under her direction.
[208]APPEARANCES:
[209]On behalf of the Commission:
[210]GEORGE MANFREDI, ESO.,
[212]ROBERT B. OLSEN, ESQ.
[214]Page 4
[217]Q And would you briefly review for me the history ot
[219]2 :
[221]3 1
[222]z i PROCIEDINGS
[223]o Fe eee ;
[224]a 2%
[225]& 1 Thereupon,
[226]é By .
[227]2 i WILLIAM C. STURBITTS,
[228]8 :
[229]& 43 a .
[230]» called as a witness by Counsel for the Commission on CIA :
[231]~ i Activities, and having been first duly sworn by the "Notary
[232]6: -_ |
[233]| Public, was examined and testified as follows: -
[234]2 4 ‘
[235]I EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE COMMISSION
[236]|
[237]' / BY MR. MANFREDI:
[238]9 | ; \
[239]| Q Mr. Sturbitts, will you state your full name for the
[240]LO 4
[241]a i record?
[242]@ am aA William C. Sturbitcs.
[243]i
[244]ai .
[245]3 le \ Q Mr. Sturbitts, do you recall when we spoke sere
[246]2 i
[247]a ~
[248]. 1s | weeks ago you Signed a document entitled, “Advice ard
[249]fa :
[252]25h .
[253]aan A. Right.
[254]i .
[255]i .
[256]14 : Q You understand that document is still in effac:?
[257]av A Sure.
[258]is i Q Mr. Sturbitts, by whom are you currently ennic ve !?
[259]19!
[260]2 iv : A You mean the Agency or --
[261]$ i
[262]6 EU i Q That is right.
[263]Q us
[265]é el A Central Intelligence Agency.
[266]z ' ;
[267]z ee ii , 9 And what is your current position with the Agency?
[268]wu it .
[269]1 a on 4 . . . . . .
[270]@ < eG A I am a Special Assistant, Latin America, for
[271]a oa | .
[272]z os ; Economic Intelligence Collection and Operations.
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[356]your employment with the Agency?
[358]A
[360]When I first came in I was in the Intelligence
[362]Directorate for apcroximately ten years and I was put on specia
[364]detail,
[366]special indefinite detail, in the Deputy Director, Pl
[368]which is now the Directorate of Operations.
[370]Q
[372]A
[374]A
[376]Q
[378]What year were you put on that detail?
[380]I guess it was 1964, January, I believe.
[382]And what did that detail involve?
[384]Cuban operations, economic warfare.
[386]And how long were you on that detail?
[388]I was in the Cuban operations for nine years.
[389]Between 1964 and 1973?
[391](Nods in affirmative.)
[393]And in 1973 did you assume your current position?
[395]Yes, January...
[397]an
[399]Now, while you were on special detail -- to the bon?
[401]Yes.
[403]Were you stationed in Washington?
[405]Yes.
[407]And did you commute with some frequency to ‘tiami?
[408]Yes.
[410]Were your activities in Miami in any way connected
[412]with the operations of the Miami Station?
[414]A
[416]I took
[418]Page 6
[420]In some way. My responsibilities were worldwide.
[422]temporary duty predominantly in Europe, and then Miari.
[424]CECDer
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[497]SECRET
[499]4
[500]Most of my operations were run out of Europe.
[502]9 Run out of --
[504]A Europe. Some were run out of Miami but the big ones
[505]were run out of Europe.
[507]Q ‘Well, in the course of your activities with respect
[509]to Cuba did you have occasion to become familiar with the
[510]operations of the Miami base?
[511]A Yes.
[512]Q And the situation in the Cuban community in Miami?
[513]A Yes, sir.
[514]Q During the nine years you were with DDO's Cuban
[516]operations, who was -- who were the chiefs of the Miami
[518]A I think in 1963 Ted Shackley was the Chief and he
[519]was followed by -- I can't think of his name. I should know
[520]it. Well, I will come back to that.
[522]Then, the next Chief of Station was
[524]pam Cems
[525]Q What years was he Chief?
[527]"was there about a year and a half. He
[529]left in 1968 when we reduced the size of the Station. Let's
[531]eey was there from 1966 to 1968. And then Jake Esterlin
[533]He was Chief of Station from 1968 to 1973.
[535]9) Now, what was the formal title of the group to which
[537]you were assigned for the 9-year period?
[539]A Well, when I first came in it was known as the
[541]Page 7 SECRET
[544])
[546]SECRET
[548]Special Activities Staff. it was headed by Desmond Fitzgerald.
[549]And then, I believe after that it became the Cuban Operations
[550]Group.
[552]Q Now, was this a soecial group within the DDO or was
[554]it attached to one of the area divisions?
[556]A No. Following the Bay of Pigs, they created a thing-
[558]called Task Force W which was headed by Bill Harvey. And
[560]that -- when Harvey left, |
[562]fee] Fitzgerald took over, it became Special Activities Staff.
[564]It wasn't attached to anytning except -- it reported to the
[566]Deputy Director, Plans.
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[639]Q And that was Mr. Karamessines?
[641]A Yes. Well, it was Helms at that time back when it.
[642]was first created. Helms was DDP at that time.
[644]Q and Task Force W was created immediately after the
[645]Bay of Pigs?
[647]A Well, not immediately. I think sometime around --
[649]in the Bay of Pigs was in April. I think this was created in
[651]September, something like that, 1961.
[653]Q And that subsequently became the Special Activities
[654]Staff?
[655]A Special Activities Staff and consequently became the |
[657]Cuban Operations Group. As the Cuban Operations Group it went
[658]back into the Western Hemisphere Division.
[660]Q And what was the date of that reorganization?
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[806]A Well, let's see. I would say that was probably around,
[808]1965 because Fitzgerald then became Chief, W.tl., and then
[810]later DDP.
[812]Q Now, tir.Harvey -- do you recall what position Mr.
[814]Harvey held after he left Task Force W?
[816]A Yes.
[818]Q And is he still with the Agency?
[820]A Oh, no. He retired a long time ago.
[822]Q Do you know where he lives at the present time?
[823]A Frankly, I don't. I have an idea where he lives.
[825]He went to work for a friend of mine who had a law firm.
[827]Harvey is a lawyer.
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[850]Q Indianapolis area? ‘
[851]A Yes, some place around there. It is in the midwest,
[852]Indiana. |
[853]Q What was the role that was assigned to Task Force !
[854]W?
[855]A It was the overall Cuban operations. |
[856]Q Did the Miami -- when was the Miami Station estab-
[857]lished? |
[858]A Well, I think they had a forward operatio-s base down
[860]there about 1960 which was small,;
[862]Q This was, then, orior to the Bay of Pigs?
[864]A Oh, yes. 5
[865]Q Now, in addition to Task Force W, was the Miami
[867]Page 9 | SECRET
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[874]= |
[875]m A -You mean srior te the Bay of Pigs?
[876]Z a
[877]2 “ a Yes.
[878]2 :
[879]° “ A I really don't know. It was a small -~ it was a
[881]S45 .
[882]; forward base and it was more .or less as I recall, a support type
[883]6 | {|
[884]' thing. |
[885]? \ Q Well, after the Bay of Pigs when Task Force W was
[886]Ht
[888]‘ § ; established, did it have sole responsibility for. Cuban
[889]9} - i
[890]. ; Operations?
[891]if .
[892]1G | A Yes.
[893]; -
[894]& ii i Q Or was that shared with the Miami base, Miami |
[895]3 121 Station? |
[896]< i |
[897]4 . . . {
[898]; is | A No. The Miami Station was under Task Force w.
[899]& “ i
[901]2 14 \ Q All right. Would that also be true of the Special |
[902]. ff
[903]28 | Activities Staff, the Cuban Operations Group? |
[904]HT
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[906]is ij A Right, except that at the present time the Station
[908]-7 i has no Cuban operations.
[909]i
[910]Hl
[911]Led Q I understand that. When were Cuban operations termi-
[912]wg |
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[916]6 2 | A At the Station? Let's see. (semnmieman went down |
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[918]g 2." there in 1972. It was during fiscal year ‘72. I think it was
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[922]3 <2 | in early 1973. It was a gradual reduction.
[923]x) u
[924]: a i 9 And have those operations been terminated entirely |
[925]a di
[926]z £4 \ or are they now run out of the Washington area? |
[927]: |
[928]= £5 A All Cuban operations are run out of Washington.
[931]HY 50955 Docld: 32203$51 Page 10
[933]; 4 0
[934]@ : SECRET . 8 |
[935]S :
[936]Pa) - ,
[937]z “ : There are no more paramilitary operations, that type of thing. |
[938]2 sa a) But there are some Cuban operations being run out of |
[939]= “ | the Washington area?
[940]= ' |
[941]= 4 A Right.
[942]: t
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[944]“oe 9 Is that correct? :
[945]6
[946]mG A Right. Worldwide. ; . ; -
[947]5
[948]ci Q Mr.Sturbitts, in the last couple of weeks you may
[949]4
[950]( ‘
[951]: 8 i have seen some allegations in the press about possible assassin:-
[952]| .
[953]aH |
[954]1 i
[955]9 } tion attempts that have been mounted or alleged assassination |
[956]. i
[957], 1e | attempts that have been mounted -~
[958]@ Li A Right.
[959]; i
[960]o | H
[961]: le} Q -- against Fidel Castro. In the course of your
[962]: | |
[963]o 2S | activities with respect to Cuba, did you ever learn of any such
[964]z 14 | attempts?
[965]i
[966]1a A Well, let me answer it this way. I wouldn't say
[967]i
[969]i .
[970]16! attempts. I know there was discussion. “Attempts” is too i
[971]‘| |
[972]17 | strong a word.
[974]: i
[975]an Q Well, can you place in time your first knowledge of |
[976]: i
[977]3 19% any such discussions?
[978]3} Ho
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[980]3 eo | A Well, the first knowledge I had of any discussions,
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[983]8 2. | Twas on TDY and this was October,November, 1963, with Fitzgcrad
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[986]3 Zz i in Paris. And I knew that he was going to meet -- let me put |
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[989]@ 2 2c | it another way. I had overheard that discussions were going on |
[990]: Ht |
[991]5 24 ; with a member of Castro's military but that he wanted, as
[993]¢ 25 | I recall, he wanted some {35
[998]HW 50955 DocId: 32203841 Page ii A ot ol poe
[1000]i SECRET a
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[1008]z " a telescopic sight. ,
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[1012]& i Q Who wanted them?
[1014]g Bi
[1016]2 4 A This military guy that was in Fidel's ~- I think
[1018]5 4 ;
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[1024]» at one time he was a commandante. Now, I knew that was going
[1026]° on. I didn't participate in it because I was there for another |
[1027]8 | reason. And I know that subsequent to that time that Fitzgerais
[1028]° | met with him again and as I recall, as the personal Lepresenta-'
[1029]e | tive of the Attorney General, Bobby Kennedy. : ;
[1030]|
[1031]9 it I provided all those files. There are 19 volumes that
[1032]; 15 | we gave to your people. But I don't know who wes reviewing
[1033]it
[1035]them. I think Belin was going to do it himself.
[1037]H
[1040]i
[1041]3 Q Yes. He is. He is doing it himself. |
[1042]x i
[1043]a zit ; i
[1044]5 15.4 You said there were 19 volumes of documents with
[1045]ai |
[1046]5 “| respect to this.
[1047]+9 A 19 files, manila.
[1048]: |
[1049]16 y - Qe All having to do with possible assassination?
[1050]ash. |
[1051]at A All having to do with this whole time period ard --
[1052]25 | can we go eff the record for a minute?
[1054](Discussion off the record.)
[1056]ai BY MR. MANFREDI:
[1057]i
[1059]21: fe) The first knowledge of such conversations that you
[1062]22 had, I take it you obtained on a trip to Europe with Mr.
[1065]ES | Fitzgerald?
[1066]|
[1068]410 First Street, §.E., Wasnington, 0.C. 20003
[1070]24 A I simply overheard it, that is right.
[1072]oe It
[1073]20 i Q And who were the parties to the conversation you overt
[1076]HW 50955 DocId: 32203951 Page 12 SECRET |
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[1090]2 | A A fellow naned #iesiromesminehcl |
[1092]2 H (0) And Mr. FPitzgeraid? |
[1093]2 4 . .
[1094]. i A Yes, and I realiy can't recall some of the other .
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[1099]i and we felt that it was probably bugged, so all conversations
[1100]2 || I
[1101]° | took place -- we walked around the garden and tyat type of
[1102]‘ i
[1103]9 | thing, and, you know, I was walking with somebody, somebody .
[1104]fou :
[1105]ic | was in front of me, and you just overhear conversations.
[1106]) : 1 Q This was in Paris?
[1107]'
[1108]' \
[1109]i 12 | A Yes. \
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[1120]i3 | Q Was it your understanding that the Agency had receiver
[1121]| :
[1122]2 i9 i instructions with respect to this activity from another
[1124]ev 20 | component of the Government? ;
[1125]ia) ' 1
[1126]7 7 i . 2
[1127]2 el ij A Well, let me put it this way. I don't know whether
[1128]c H 4
[1129]5
[1130]3 221 they received instructions. [f have to assume, and I am pretty
[1131]al . ;
[1132]a 2 hi . a
[1133]) ra £2 | positive, that this was a result of a Special Group decision.
[1134]2 i . '
[1135]5 i i
[1136]3 £4) and at this time you have to remember that Bobby Kennedy was
[1137]5 |
[1138]= 25 overseeing this deal, presumably for his brother, and he was |
[1139]|
[1141]HW 50955 Docld: 32203$51 Page 13 SECRET
[1143]! : | |
[1144]® : | SECRET :
[1146]or)
[1147]om
[1149]o oe t
[1151]g Lo. . . :
[1152]g part of that Special Group. He called the meetings, he presided,
[1153]Csi }
[1154]a &
[1155]a ® he did a number of things. |
[1156]: i
[1157]q li .
[1158]@ i Q Were there any other occasions that you can recall
[1159]3 if :
[1160]/ in which the possibility or the subject of assassination of
[1161]5,
[1162]> Pidel Castro was discussed?
[1163]{| : Coe
[1164]6 &
[1165]| A ‘No, not really.
[1166]7
[1167]if A q . {
[1168]\ Q You referred to this as the first occasion,
[1169]8 8 i i
[1170]I A This is the first --
[1171]. 9 | ;
[1172]H 9: Was there a second? ,
[1173]ake ~ . . . .
[1174]7M A -~- the first time I knew about it or even heard it
[1175]© LL oa a
[1176]i iscussed. ; !
[1177]i
[1178]Ve i : . : . .
[1179]3 8 | Q Well, prior to the investigation that is currenti-s :
[1180]2 a
[1181]a 1
[1182]rad : : : . . .
[1183]: oa | underway ~~ I am referring now to our Commission's investi-:ation
[1184]z i :
[1185]$ Pa . . . . . !
[1186]3 ié¢ / =-~ were there any other occasions in which this subject vane
[1187]i i
[1188]|
[1189]va ; ° . :
[1190]~“ | to your attention after this discussion in the garden in '
[1191]“£7 paris?
[1192]a A The only other thing that came to my attention «35
[1193]aa i
[1194]4G | that the decision was made not to provide him with this si tht
[1195]tf.
[1196]a 29 that he wanted. thether that is right or wrong, ¥ don't vac,
[1197]8 H .
[1198]3 i ;
[1199]nN 6 it
[1200]J £04 put that is what I was told.
[1201]a !
[1202]: a | |
[1203]g 21h a) When did you learn that?
[1204]c i
[1205]z } .
[1206]z ae | A Oh, I would assume in -~ must have been early 1945,
[1207]Cs] wi os . ,
[1208]we a . .
[1209]Fd : around February, something like that.
[1210]é 5, i
[1211]g ao Q Off the record.
[1212]3 i ,
[1213]es 4 : :
[1214]HW 50955 Docld:32203851 Page 14 (Discussion off the record.)
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[1293]HY 409545 Docld: 32203851 Page 15
[1295]Q
[1297]SECRET .
[1299]MR. MANFREDI: On the record.
[1300]BY MR. MANFREDI:
[1302]Mr. Sturbitts, are you familiar with a gentleman by
[1304]the name of Frank Sturgis?
[1306]A
[1308]Q
[1310]the press?
[1312]A
[1314]Q
[1316]Indeed.
[1318]Is your familiarity based on what you have read in
[1320]No. It is what is contained in the files.
[1322]Have you caused a search to be made of CIA files,
[1324]particularly the files of the Western Hemisphere Division,
[1326]in an attempt to determine whether Mr. Sturgis ever had any
[1328]connection with the Agency?
[1330]A
[1332]Q
[1334]A
[1336]Q
[1338]I have.
[1339]What were the results of that search?
[1340]Absolutely no connection, never has been.
[1342]When we talk about connection, are we talking about
[1344]an employment relationship?
[1346]A
[1348]Q
[1350]That is what I am sneaking of.
[1352]Was Mr.Sturgis ever an independent contractor of
[1354]the Agency?
[1356]A
[1357]Q
[1358]A
[1359]Q
[1361]A
[1363]No.
[1365]Was he ever a contract employee?
[1366]No.
[1367]4
[1369]Was he ever a regular employee of the Agency?
[1371]No.
[1373]L£EfPaer
[1376]®@ od | _ SECRET
[1378]: 13
[1379]I
[1380]8 HT
[1381]3 ae . . :
[1382]z ie) Was he ever hired to do any piecework for the
[1383]2 ~ i Agency?
[1384]3 h
[1386]2 4 A Not to my knowledge.
[1387]3 s .
[1388]* . ‘ Oo Do you Know whether or not Mr. Sturgis ever partici-
[1389]~ i pated in any type of paramilitary or other operation against
[1391]' Cuba? _
[1392]va . .
[1393]A On his own behalf he did, not on behalf of this
[1394]Sj
[1395]; | Agency
[1396]9
[1397]7 Hos Q How did you learn of those operations?
[1398]as t :
[1399]oan A Through the newspaper. And through FBI reports.
[1400]it
[1402]@ : aaa 9 Now, are these recent FBI reports?
[1403]i
[1404]2 +e A Oh, no. These go back -- I know at onetime, the
[1405]é lo
[1406]Wa : : -
[1407]‘ ao thing that comes to mind, I think he made a leaflet drop
[1408]& i
[1410]= 4 i over Cuba and this was subsequently reported in the press and
[1411]|
[1413]22 | by the Bureau office in Miami.
[1414]i
[1416]he | Q Do you know who financed his activities?
[1417]1
[1418]i
[1419]i A I have no idea.
[1420]ah
[1421]aan Q Is it possible that Mr. Sturgis' activities were
[1422]i
[1423]2 1?) indirectly financed by the Agency through -- i
[1424]3 ‘
[1425]Ss i :
[1426]G zo | A I don't see how. Frank Sturgis is a soldier of
[1427]a u ~ :
[1430]¢ «- 7 fortune; has been. He has constantly tried to associate himsel
[1432]s .
[1433]z Re | with the Agency. When I went through his file they wanted me
[1434]ui i . .
[1435]a a4 gs :
[1436]¢ ee | to classify the file and the way I classified it was “don't
[1437]: i,
[1438]a
[1439]Zz ona destroy it, he is an intelligence nuisance."
[1440]5 i
[1441]2 z
[1443]Q off the record.
[1445]WW 50955 pocta:32203451 Page 16 GEC RET
[1447]Cn
[1449]Fy
[1452]SECRET 2
[1454]i
[1455]i
[1456]HI
[1457]‘| 14
[1458]i
[1460]HW 50955 DociId: 32203
[1462]g
[1463]3 Ly
[1464]g i (Discussion off the record.)
[1466]= 24
[1468]a } MR. MANFREDI: On the record.
[1470]é . it
[1474]2 i BY MR. MANPFREDI:
[1476]2 . ou ;
[1478]= i . ; .
[1480]i Q Have you caused the Agency records with respect to mel.
[1482]5 aa H
[1483]il Sturgis to be assembled in any one location? :
[1486]i A Yes. Ihave custody of them.
[1488]i Q And what is the volume of that material?
[1489]3 i i
[1490]‘ ; i A As I recall, there are five volumes. Your Committee
[1491][
[1492]9 | . . '
[1494]. called for them the other dav after the article in the paper, |;
[1497]Ll? 4 . ‘
[1499]I guess it was last Saturday. They called for them Monday and:
[1500]+ i they returned them Monday afternoon. |
[1503]3 124 Q Do you know who examined those files? |
[1505]fas! | |
[1507]. “| A No, I don't.
[1510]143 .
[1512]5 aan Q You indicated a moment ago that Mr. Sturgis contacts |
[1513]15 | ‘geen te eee cs , |
[1514]ws i the DCD office in Miami with some frequency, is that correct?
[1516](
[1518]1A!
[1519]an A Well, not great frequency but he does with tidbits |
[1520]Lol '
[1521]~’ |. 9£ so-called information.
[1522]|
[1523]i
[1524]+3 Q Is this information limited to narcotics, alleged |
[1526]3 19 i narcotics traffic?
[1528]Co i
[1532]3 £9 i A Recently it has been. i
[1534]i i
[1535]¢ |
[1537]3 el | Q Has Mr. Sturgis been encouraged by the DCD office :
[1539]z ee | in Miami? . {
[1543]3 26 | A Mr. Sturgis has been told by the DCD office in Miami
[1545]a : |
[1547]é en to take his information to the Drug Enforcement Agency or the
[1549]2 |
[1551]* #2 | PBI. |
[1553]1
[1555]=.
[1557]51 Page i?
[1559]Bhane (Area 207) 044-6006
[1561]es
[1563]“2
[1565]WARD & PAUL
[1566]H
[1567]iva)
[1569]410 first Surcet, $.£., Washington, G.C. 20003
[1570]ia)
[1571]0
[1573]t
[1574]i
[1576]25
[1578]1
[1579]E
[1580]HW 50955 Docld: 32203851 Page 16
[1582]SECRET | 15
[1584]Q Do you know whether or not they consider him an
[1585]established contact? .
[1587]A No manner.
[1589]Q Do they have any -- do they periodically seek to
[1590]collect information from Mr. Sturgis?
[1592]A I can't speak to that but the records that we have
[1593]don't reflect anything like that. Before they would contact
[1594]somebody in that context, Knowing that there is a 201 file
[1595]on Sturgis, they- would have to coordinate with the Latin
[1597]American Division before they did anything since we do hold
[1599]the file.
[1600]Q Would you briefly explain what a 201 file is?
[1601]A A 201 file is a personnel file. It consists of any
[1603]information relating to an individual appearing in the press
[1607]-as a result of other agency reporting and that type of thing.
[1609]Qo Personnel or personality file?
[1610]A Personality file, I should say. Excuse me.
[1611]Q Do you know whether or not there is any connection
[1613]or relationship between Eugenio Martinez and Mr. Sturgis?
[1614]A Well, I will say this. Obviously, they cdo know
[1615]each other. They have to know each other from their days
[1617]in Cuba.
[1619]9 Do you know whether or not Mr. Sturgis ever partici- |
[1621]pated with Martinez in raids against Cuba?
[1623]A No. AS I recall, we employed Martinez around 1961,
[1627]i
[1631]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[1632]ay)
[1634]WARD & PAUL
[1635]i
[1636]CA
[1638]410 First Street, $.E.. Washington, O.C. 20003
[1639]wo
[1640]raw
[1642](AS)
[1645]HWY 50955 Docld: 32203851
[1647]SECRET
[1649]I guess, and he yas in our maritime activities. He was a
[1651]16
[1653]and exfiltrations and perhaps one or two raids, hit and run,
[1655]|
[1657]boat captain eventually. And he did participate in infiltrations
[1658]f
[1659]i)
[1661]sabotage-type actions against Cuba. Sturgis never enjaged
[1663]in
[1665]any of these things. He never did it for us nor did he ever
[1667]do it on any of our boats, planes, or -- anything that be
[1669]to the Agency.
[1671]Q When Martinez would run such an operation or ca
[1673]a boat on such an operation, would he be charged with put
[1675]Page 19 f®EP REP
[1677]lonas~
[1681]ting
[1683]together his own crew?
[1685]A No. He had an assigned crew and every boat had a
[1686]Case Officer operating either out of the -- probably out of |
[1687]the Miami Station. Sometimes I would assume that we did have |
[1688]some people in thef ibase. But he, Martinez, would recei
[1689]his instructions and briefings from his Case Officer. :
[1691]Q Sa it is likely that he could have broucht Sturais
[1692]along on any of these operations?
[1694]A Absolutely unlikely. Oh, the guy whose name I whs
[1695]trying to think of, Chief of Station,
[1697]Q . And that would be for a period of time between
[1698]Shackley and |
[1700]A Yes. |
[1702]Q | 1964 to 1966?
[1704]A Something like that.
[1706]Q Would you describe briefly for me the nature of tne
[1708]SECRET
[1710]17
[1712]activities conducted by the Special Activities Staff during
[1713]; YOur ~~ and subsequently the Cuban Operations Group during
[1715]your 9-year tenure with those grouos.
[1717]Well, there was -- it was an across-the-board
[1719]intelligence operation consisting of collection of foreign
[1721]positive intelligence, counterintelligence, paramilitary
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[1801]HY 50955 Docld:32203351 Page 20
[1803]operations. Were these operations run out of southern
[1805]the country that participated in these activities?
[1807].
[1808]activities, covert action, economic activities. That is about
[1810]the breadth of the thing.
[1812]Now, these were all conducted through the DDO?
[1814]Right.
[1816]Now, let's speak for a moment about the paramilitary
[1818]Right.
[1819]And in particular out of the Miami Station?
[1820]Yes.
[1822]Were there any other CIA facilities in that area of
[1824]Not to my knowledge.
[1826]Were there any southern harbors other than Miami
[1828]that were used in these activities?
[1830]Were there any other bases in that area of the
[1832]| country that were utilized in these operations?
[1834]Gerocr
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[1857]; I really can't recall them.
[1859]i . . !
[1860]9 Q Were there any other sites within the United States
[1861]u 4
[1863]ic in which paramilitary training was conducted, for people
[1864]| . i
[1865]@ i} participating in these activities? |
[1867]aT i H
[1868]4 +e A Not to my knowledge.
[1871]* 13 | Q Where were these people trained?
[1874]z aa A What do you mean? |
[1875]q
[1876]15 | Q Well, Cubans who participated in. these activities. |
[1877]i . i
[1878]16 5 We trained them at phase '
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[1886]3 21 i Q Were any CIA personnel actually involved in these |
[1887]z i
[1888]z i ;
[1889]Fy 2a, yvaids?
[1891]: z3 | A Occasionally, I would think that -- you have got to
[1892]5 i . ;
[1893]2 26 | understand at this time that we had a great many contract
[1894]B _ i , -
[1895]. 25 i employees, independent contractors and this type of thing.
[1897]i :
[1898]HY 50955 Docld:32203851 Page 21 GF? 8 gm ey Ig ee
[1900]i het ge hicks ;
[1901]i Peron One Grae
[1902]J 19
[1903]2 + i
[1904]=) ~ 4 :
[1905]2 a . {
[1906]z Most of the paramilitary operations and the training was
[1907]5 i
[1908]3 7 conducted by the Special Oserations Group which is another !
[1909]g M —_
[1910]> ' entity of the -- i
[1913]9 DDO?
[1914]vs A DDO.
[1915]“ ) Now, the facilities that we have been talking about,
[1916]X
[1917]7 ._, ea eg y . |
[1918]h training facilities, were manned, then, by the Special
[1919]a ;
[1920]’ “» Operations Group, or at least supervised by the Special
[1921]a
[1922]-~ ,
[1923]ao i . . i
[1924]. ~ i Operations Group, 18 that correct? ~
[1925]if '
[1926]15!
[1927]nt A Well, supervised, yes, and I would think that probabi-v
[1928]i
[1929]Lit
[1931]some of the training was given by their people.
[1933]en
[1935]at
[1936]3
[1937]Fy !
[1938]< | would think that in the paramilitary field that the SOG would ©
[1940]< ted to. ‘ eae : . I
[1941]z +f i probably staff the training facility with their people who have
[1942]|
[1943]~ | the expertise in paramilitary operations. |
[1945]if
[1946]‘ Q Now, were the peorle that were being trained at
[1947]~- i; these facilities basically Cuban refudees?
[1948]al !
[1949]an A Yes. ;
[1951]2 2. Q And at the outset 2 take it not many of those peopie |
[1952]8 !
[1953]6 209 i were American citizens?
[1954]a) bY |
[1955]¢ , | |
[1956]2 el | A No.
[1957]: ; | |
[1958]2 225 9 Or had become American citizens.
[1959]é | |
[1960]a oy
[1961]z © A I would assume a great many have.
[1962]i | — | |
[1963]a ea Q By this time. |
[1964]Z F \
[1965]c af t
[1966]= 25 |, A By this time, yes.
[1968]HW 50955 Docld: 32203451 Page 22
[1970][ @ ; SECRET
[1972]2° 1
[1973]é '
[1974]z * “ 9 At the present time, how large is that Cuban communi ti:
[1975]2 2. |
[1976]a ~ in Miami? Do you have any idea?
[1977]pos |
[1978]= a A Well, it is extremely large. I would think it is
[1979]3 :
[1980]é ao . .
[1981]probably -- I was trying to think. I would say up towards a j
[1982]“ military people. i
[1983]© Q You spoke about paramilitary operations and covert ~
[1985]; action. How do you distinguish between those two categories |
[1986]2 I
[1987]’ 8 I of activities? |
[1988]9 i oO
[1989]Y if A Well, actually one can fall into the other. The :
[1990]14° paramilitary could fall into covert action but in those days !
[1991]LL ij : . : : .
[1992]++ we did distinguish somewhat. A lot of the covert action was
[1993]> | . : : |
[1994]2 12 i media placement. We had a number of operations at -- legal- |
[1996]‘ 131 . . . ‘
[1997]; LoS type operations, harassment operations. For instance, Fidei :
[2000]< . . . .
[2001]3 141 seized a great many art treasures and in particular he had a
[2002]i 3 .
[2003]it ~
[2004]aan fi . . : - .
[2005]+9 i Napoleonic collection which was supposed to be the finest in |
[2007]5 |
[2008]is ; the world that he sold to dealers in Europe. We had paintings:
[2009]Hy ‘
[2010]am to, . ! : \
[2011]-/ |. that were immensely valuable that. he tried to have auctioned .
[2012]i
[2013]is \ in London and the London auctioneer would not accest then |
[2014]3 29 b because he obviously didn't have clear title to them. He was) |
[2015]3 : |
[2016]N nwo
[2017]uo au i} =~ they were stolen,in the eyes of the auctioneer. tie was |
[2018]3S : .
[2019]- it i
[2020]3 al I forced to auction them in Toronto, Canada.
[2022]& I 4 H
[2023]3 >} . {
[2024]3 a2 “ We ran legal operations, got the owners and had then!
[2025]J i
[2026]a l
[2027]= 231° hire attorneys and bring them to court and this type of china. |
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[2031]3 est. He seized these race horses. He tried to peddle then;
[2032]i i ‘
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[2034]7 £0 I in Europe and up in Canada. We ran opposition against “that \
[2035]HW 50955 Docld: 32203451 Page 23 oo = am Pe Faye
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[2103]|
[2104]|
[2106]SECRET
[2108]2.
[2109]|
[2110]type of thing. |
[2111]Q These were what you considered to be covert operation
[2112]A Yes, covert action. : :
[2114]9 Now, this is what you were referring to, legal-
[2115]type operations? |
[2116]A Yes. :
[2117]Q You used legal process to harass Castro. |
[2118]A Yes. |
[2119]Q What other types of harassment activities did. you
[2120]run that would fall under this covert action category? |
[2121]A Well -- |
[2122]Q Would economic warfare be -- :
[2123]A That was sort of something separate unto itself.
[2124]This was -- the economic warfare aspect of this thing was a
[2126]decision of the Special Group to enforce an economic blockaus.
[2128]Q What special group is that?
[2130]A It is now called the Forty Committee.
[2131]Q Is that 302 Committee?
[2132]A Well, it was a 302 at one time, too. First of all,
[2134]it was called the Special Group, CI, Counterinsurgency. Then
[2135]it went to the 302 and then it had another name in between
[2136]there and now it is the Forty Committee.
[2138]Q All right. We will return to that a little bit
[2139]later, but what other types of harassment were vou runnina
[2141]against Castro --
[2143]HW 50955 poora:32z03451 Page 24 SterorT
[2145]i
[2147]SECRET | 22
[2149]Ho
[2150]t
[2151]g f
[2152]3 1 4 :
[2153]s 1 aA This is what I was trying to think of.
[2154]5 2 | |
[2155]& Q ° -- that would be considered covert action? j
[2156]z 3 |
[2157]g | A Well, as I say, a lot of propaganda, press placement, |
[2158]c=] Wy
[2159]= t Wt j
[2161]} media placement. It has been ‘so long ago I really don't |
[2162]y :
[2163]5 if .
[2164]| remember. I know we had a number of things going against hin.
[2165]6 ,
[2166]i We used suasion, moral suasion, otherwise. We did some
[2167]° ' .
[2168]extra-legal things. We tried to get to his sources of suoply, !
[2169]BW ae
[2170]9 | ao
[2172]| k Let's talk about each of those in turn. You said
[2173]12 || _ |
[2174]@ | you used moral suasion. What kind of activities are you }
[2175]4 12 || .
[2176]3 referring to? |
[2178]2 13
[2179]: A Well, in the moral suasion field we -- actually, we
[2180]t
[2181]|
[2182]id A
[2183]3 14 | were the catalyst in this whole thing and we had the legal
[2184]a activities, the legal -- well, I don't know how you would !
[2185]4 . !
[2186]~6 | phrase it, but we operated under the Cuban access control
[2187]a regulations of the Treasury, Department, the Trading with the
[2188]18 Enemy Act, and we also used the facilities of the Department of.
[2189]rol f
[2190]g i9 Commerce, the Export Control people. :
[2191]Q 20 I guess as you are aware, Cuban industry was totally
[2192]5 3) . . .
[2193]3 ee U.S.-oriented. As parts began wearing out and this type of ;
[2194]z i
[2195]a ee thing, Castro had his little people there running around trying
[2196]iW . ~ 1
[2198]6 g 25 1 to place orders with subsidiaries of U.S. companies. Where
[2199]3 24 we would find this out through all-source intelligence, we
[2200]a i}
[2201]on ~ t
[2202]. 25 or the Treasury people or the Commerce people would go to the
[2203]HW 50955 vocra: 3220451 Page 25 2@etfaeT
[2205]B 7 7 SECRE | 23
[2207]executives of these American. companies and ask them to tell
[2208]their foreign subsidiaries not to provide the spare parts |
[2210]: and the other things that Castro might need. We had the
[2212]Prone (Arend 207] 444-GO00
[2214]Department of Commerce -~- we identified 600 of the major U.S.
[2216]companies that could provide spare parts for Cuban industry.
[2218]We had the Department of Commerce send letters to those 600
[2219]N
[2221]manufacturers and ask them to cooperate with them in denying
[2223]any spare parts to the Cubans. This was a fairly concentrated
[2225]effort to really isolate them.
[2226]Q All right. And that is what you were referring to
[2228]- as moral suasion?
[2230]A Yes.
[2232]'
[2233]Na
[2235]Q Anything else in that category? a
[2237]WARD & PAULL
[2239]ar A Not really. None that I can think of.
[2241]ne Q Did you make the same kind of efforts with foreign
[2243]Tr
[2245]. companies? , :
[2247]A At one point we did but it was absolutely useless,
[2249]21 4 Q Now, did you attemot to reach any other sources of
[2251], supply?
[2253]Zo 4 A Well, we also had wnat we call a preemptive purchasing
[2257]a i program. If there was a single source of supply for a
[2259]410 Forst Sireet, S.E., Washington, O.C. 20003
[2260]av)
[2261]rae)
[2263]aot particular item we would go in and buy it to deny the Cubans
[2264]i
[2265]BW 50955 Docld:32203¢51 Page 26 a8 Ont cite ‘pute, eo ean
[2267]SECRET CO
[2269]24
[2270]8 4
[2271]$ Lt i
[2272]$ : the market.
[2273]> te 1
[2274]5 i; Q Would thas then be re-sold somewhere on the domestic +-
[2275]z . i 4
[2276]= . i :
[2277]2 | A Yes.
[2278]2 a :
[2279]a Boa i
[2280]i Q ~~ domestic market?
[2281]" f A No. It would be re~sold abroad.
[2282]é ; , on
[2283]a Q In all cases?
[2285]A The cases that I was associated with, it was all
[2287]’ | sold abroad.
[2288]9 |
[2289]@] What kind of purchases were made?
[2290]: VE |
[2291]| A Well, we purchased at one point -- we purchased
[2293]@ i ssome Bright Stock |
[2294]| |
[2295]_ 12 i
[2296]5 ! Q What? |
[2297]< 1s | |
[2298]) ;
[2299]° [ A Bright Stock.
[2300]g ial |
[2301]; a Q What is that?
[2302]1 q
[2303]= |
[2304]15 . :
[2305]! A Heavy, heavy oil, and since Cuba -- 85 percent of
[2306]16 | | '
[2308]her energy comes from oil, this was considered a critical
[2309]‘commodity. Bright Stock can be -- oh, it is almost like tar,
[2311]melted tar, and it can be cut into additives, lubricants, this
[2313]|
[2316]|
[2317]9 |
[2318]3 |: type of thing, and this was critical to the Cuban economy. So
[2319]Qa . ;
[2320]“ 50 i
[2321]bs avy we had an oil firm purchase this Bright Stock from a dealer for'
[2322]: i
[2323]$ 4 | I
[2324]2 e which we reimbursed the guy and the Bright Stock was eventually,
[2325]2 i
[2326]$22 |
[2327]me = 23 | ial |!
[2328]g | Q Do you know of any sales of such materials that
[2330]we i + :
[2331]g ea were made within the United States? Resales, I should say.
[2332]c h
[2333]. z5 A No.
[2334]HW 50955 Docld:32203451 Page 27 LEAS Sw “
[2336]@ : | = 25
[2338]2 :
[2339]3 = ot i
[2340]? ho, . 0. : . \
[2341]2g . 9 In addition to preemptive buying were there anv |
[2342]® i other actions taken by this group with réspecst to sources of
[2343]d yt 7 |
[2344]2 i supply to Cuba?
[2345]2 : . +
[2347]a A Well, we did provide through third country agents i
[2348]~ x who got orders for Cuban goods, in collusion with the Commerce
[2350]« Department, and [ would assume the Special Group, we had
[2351]7 i
[2352]i replacement parts manufactured that were substandard. i
[2353]if
[2354]‘ & |i . .
[2355]| 1) And you had them sold through foreign companies?
[2356]u ~
[2357]9 |i -
[2358]‘ | A Well, we had our agents get the Cuban orders all
[2359]Wh i
[2360]“i over Europe. Then they would come back and, as a matter of fact,
[2361]e® x |
[2362]“i the former Secretary of Commerce, who is on your Committee, Des.
[2363]| |
[2364]3 12 and I met him and he gave us the go-ahead to do this.
[2366]< i
[2367]1 ij
[2368]a 28 | 9 Mr. Dillion?
[2369]c if :
[2370]$ 14 . :
[2371]i A No. He was Secretary of the Treasury. |
[2373]aa Q But -- |
[2374]a ; A But you must remember that these American -- ,
[2375]earn
[2376]_ | Q Mr. Connors?
[2377]1¢ : A Yes. But you must remember these American manufacture:
[2378]| ;
[2379]sn ik . 1
[2380]3 +% 1 well, their places were nationalized and they were only too '
[2381]o a " :
[2382]nN |
[2383]e £0 | happy to work with us. And actually, it was a cash deal, bona °
[2384]ib 2
[2385]4 ;
[2386]3 el « fide business. These things were transshipped through two
[2387]= i i
[2388]4 e | :
[2389]= 22 i or three countries, finally wound up in Havana.
[2391]“ anf foe, :
[2392]rd eo | Q You referred to some extra-legal activities. :
[2393]i Hl !
[2394]2 £4 A Yes. That is what I was trying to think of, what
[2395]° |
[2397]. 26 | we did. I just can't think -- I remember. this was on one of
[2399]HW 50955 Docid:32203§51 Page 28
[2403]: . 26
[2404]2
[2406]8 24 '
[2407]w ~ «ge : or] ; !
[2408]= our activities but I just can't think -~- I remember this was
[2409]a 2
[2410]& f on one of our activities but I just can't remember what the :
[2411]Z ca
[2412]g “ extra-legal was. I just can't remember what it was. I know !
[2413]3 3 . i
[2414]& & “ i
[2415]© it was one of the parts of the program.
[2416]5 4
[2417]| Q This was illegal activities? Is that what you are
[2418]h
[2419]Gi .
[2421]7 | ;
[2422]i A Well, I wouldn't say they were illegal, but they
[2423]' a! ;
[2424]| weren't exactly legal, I don’t think. Perhaps they were ina
[2425]9 ;
[2426]. gray area some place.
[2427]lo}
[2429]Q Well, whose laws are we talking about, international
[2431]FH
[2432]be
[2434]law, the laws of the United States?
[2437]3 “* A I would have to go back and review the thing. -
[2438]< '
[2439]2 13}
[2440]really.can't remember this. I would have to go to the files.
[2442]< yA
[2443]5 “ Q Where could we find that kind of thing in the files?
[2444]151 =
[2445]aan A I would think probably down aa
[2446]TA |
[2447]~ i place.
[2448]. “| Q Would it be possible to obtain that material sore
[2449]18
[2450]“4 time during the lunch hour?
[2451]u
[2452]194
[2453]g
[2454]5 i .
[2455]Q 20 Q Well, is there some place in the building where
[2456]< i ,
[2457]7 -
[2458]3 a you could refresh. your memory?
[2459]é |
[2460]3 20! ;
[2461], = “” A Not to my knowledge. All that stuff has been snijppe’.
[2463]. a) . | 1
[2464]e 3 ee This is talking ll years ago, 12 years ago. All that materia!
[2465]: a
[2466]; 24 |
[2467]E * || has been retired.
[2468]2 . |
[2469]7 25 i
[2471]Q What category of activity would we be talking abo."
[2472]BW 50955 Docld:32203851 Page 29
[2474]SECRET
[2476]4 27
[2477]a
[2478]oa i
[2479]g LG ;
[2480]Bt i when we refer to extra-legal activities? |
[2481]z 2 4
[2482]a i A This is what I was trying to think of and I can't
[2483]é BY .
[2484]s | think of what it was, I know extra-legal activities was one i
[2485]o '
[2486]é a
[2487]. , parts of the program that we were involved in.
[2488]5 il
[2489]i I might have a chart in my safe downstairs that might!
[2490]e | a *
[2491]; tell me what that is.
[2492]7 | |
[2493]{ Q Well, let's make a note of that and we will have to
[2494]3 |
[2495]‘ | come back to that. ;
[2496]9 | -
[2497]‘ A. All right.
[2499]t Q Who else would be knowledgeable about extra-legal
[2500]17
[2501]@ a | activities that were run against Castro? |
[2502]if
[2504]3 +6 A Well, the people that would be knowledgeable are
[2505]a
[2506]13 . ;
[2507]‘ -< | probably retired and I was running the program. So I ran
[2508]c : : i
[2509]< i
[2510]a a . H
[2511]z 141 the economic program. |
[2512]ae Q Well, these are activities that were run in connectir.
[2513]~" j) with the economic program?
[2514]aan A Yes.
[2515]1
[2516]1343 . oo : .
[2517]we} Q We talked about media placement during this nine-
[2518]3 (ae year period. To what are you referring when you refer to :
[2519]en | |
[2520]q “~ | media placement?
[2521]c |
[2522]S ov it
[2523]2 en | A Well, Stories or news items that perhaps our.
[2524]é i
[2525]a oo h
[2526]= ©“ | propaganda people wrote. We had them placed in newspapers
[2527]© ‘ od | ~o
[2528]; z ze | and magazines throughout the world.
[2529]a i
[2530]¢ 24 i Q Would this also include broadcasts over radio
[2531]2 |
[2532]. aD | stations?
[2534]HW 50955 Docld:32203951 Page 30
[2536]6 S8CRET 23
[2538]z
[2539]¢ Xx Oh, yos. Radio is a very big part of it.
[2540]a : QO Now, were any of these newSpapers or magazines
[2541]2 published within the United States?
[2543]° A «Not to my knowledge, no.
[2545]2 These were essentially foreign publications?
[2546]A Yes.
[2547]ane
[2548]‘5 O- Were any of them published in the Cuban community
[2549]i in Miami?
[2550]é q
[2551]Q08 . : os :
[2552]i A No. The intent was to get world opinion against
[2553]: Castro. You don't do that by publishing in the United States. —~
[2555]& DOH Q What about the radio broadcasts? How were those
[2556]- 3 le nandled?
[2557]f |
[2558]: an A Are you speaking of Radio Swan now?
[2559]ct P
[2561]5 | 9 Well, I am unfamiliar with how many radio stations
[2562]aa were involved. Was there more than one radio station?
[2563]aan A No. We only had the one radio station but we did
[2564]ee contract time with Florida stations, a station in New York.
[2565]i.
[2567]| Q For broadcasts to what areas?
[2569]3 ~2 A For broadcasts to Havana.
[2570]9
[2571]Oo +
[2572]u aa 10) And the station in New York, was that received also
[2573]: | .
[2574]3 e: s == was that also broadcasting to various areas of the United
[2575]g i ;
[2576]a 2 " :
[2577]= a States?
[2578]“ a . , t
[2579]a “4 { .
[2580]3 26 i A I have no idea. I don't know whether they used a
[2581]g aml particular frequency to get this out or whether they did it
[2582]e |
[2583]. £8 |
[2585]on short-wave or what they did.
[2587]: I
[2588]HW 50955 vocra:a2z0451 Page 31 SECRET
[2591]Prone (Arca 2L2) 944-6000
[2593]430 Farst Street, §.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003
[2595]WARD & PAUL
[2597]25
[2599]HW 50955 Docld: 3220381 Page 32
[2601]SY
[2604]ty
[2605]# fe
[2607]re
[2608]“of
[2610]29
[2611]_ But the intention was to reach Cuba.
[2613]A Reach Cuba.
[2615]Q You referred to a station in New York, referred to
[2616]as Swan. Were tnere others?
[2618]A There were a couple in Miami that I recall. Not in
[2619]Miami. I think there was one -- yes, there was one in Miami,
[2620]I- think,§
[2622]Q Where was Radio Swan located?
[2624]A On Swan Island. -
[2626]io) Where is Swan Island? -
[2628]A Swan Island is a little glob around Honduras. ‘
[2630]Q ‘As far as you can recall, were there any other
[2632]radio stations in the United States that were utilized to
[2633]broadcast propaganda materials toward Cuba?
[2635]A Well, there conceivably could have been, not that
[2636]I recall right now.
[2638]Q Do you recall any attempts by the Agency or qroups
[2639]affiliated with the Agency to raise money from the American
[2640]public to support those propaganda activities?
[2642]A No. As far as I know, Radio Swan and this type of
[2643]thing was fully subsidized by the Agency.
[2645]Q Do you recall the advertising campaigns that were
[2646]run in connection with Radio Free Europe and Radio Liberty?
[2648]A Oh, yes.
[2650]Q Was anything of that nature done in connection with
[2652]Ce ER A FO, ED
[2654]@ i SECRET | 40
[2656]'
[2657]o 2 |
[2658]8 :
[2659]2 “+ Cuban propaganda?
[2660]Bd A |
[2661]~ ey , i
[2662]3 “ ; A Not to my knowledge.
[2664]¢ an Q And that would include both the publications and the
[2665]2 | | !
[2666]a > J yadio? i
[2667]h i
[2668]7 i
[2669]2 A Right.
[2671]_ i .
[2672]ci Q Let's talk about economic warfare for a couple of
[2673]7 | moments. Could you describe for me briefly the type of a
[2674]if
[2675]8 | economic activities that were conducted against Castro?
[2676]| ;
[2677]‘ |
[2678]9 i A Well, first of ail, we wanted to denigrate the ;
[2679]: 1°) regime, his credit worthiness, and this type of thing. We
[2680]ll ii worked very closely with the Coordinator of Cuban Affairs in :
[2681]1
[2682]h 1
[2684]4 18 j) the State Department and, well, for instance, in those days, tj
[2685]2 i
[2686]z i
[2687]e 13 # guess it was back in 1964, the price of sugar had jumped fron
[2688]Q i to
[2689]x i :
[2690]: 34% about a penny a pound to 13 cents a pound, something Like ;
[2691]! i
[2692]15 that, and we couldn't ‘understand why. So we kept -- Fidel kept |
[2693]1 !
[2694]146 | saying that he had such a poor crop and this type of thing ani
[2695]Us ! we just couldn't figure out why he had such a poor crop peciuse
[2696]12a || some of our own island assets told us they were out there cuttin
[2697]|
[2698]- 19 | this cane like mad and the mills were working 24 hours a cay,
[2699]fo] 4 ‘
[2701]oO i} .
[2702]i. zo | this type of thing. So subsequently, we found out that he was
[2703]6
[2704]5 21 | lying and he was storing the raw cane in the schocls, any
[2705]e ‘ (
[2706]E 991, place. He had no storage facilities and put it any place he
[2707]J | . ‘
[2708]“ 24 could. . !
[2709]a :
[2711]: ca | So in cooperation with a couple of sugar brokers in
[2712]= | ,
[2713]- 1
[2714]= 25 | New York, we surfaced this fact and the price of sugar took a
[2715]i
[2716]HW 50955 Docld:322038$1 Page 33 SECRET
[2719]c
[2720]2
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[2781]1
[2782]f
[2784]|
[2786]HW 50955 DoclId: 32203351
[2792]CRET 31 |
[2793]real tumble and all of a sudden then Cuba started exporting.
[2794]It was this type of thing that obviously he was
[2795]trying to build up the world price because he didn't have any;
[2796]money, he was so short on his exchange, and obviously we dida te!
[2797]want him to get the exchange, So it was those types of
[2798]activities. . oe
[2799]Q Was the assistance of any U.S. businessmen or U.S. i
[2800]companies enlisted in that effort?
[2802]A on, yes.
[2804]2 In what manner did you use U.S. companies and
[2805]businessmen?
[2807]A Well, we simply used them as the experts. A great
[2808]Many -- the sugar industry in Cuba was controlled by the
[2810]American community, by American bankers, and obviously they
[2811]lost. everything when they had to pull out. Sugar is the
[2812]lifeline of Cuba as far as any exchange, foreign exchange, tnis
[2813]type of thing, and it was naturally our Number 1 tarset. vr ct
[2814]was only natural that we would go to the American businessmen.
[2816]Q What kind of assistance did you seek or obtain fro
[2817]these businessmen?
[2819]A Well, we simply talked with them about why -- you
[2820]know, the market conditions were, why the price was rising, if
[2821]we could find out that Fidel has plenty of sugar, what would
[2822]happen to the market price. This type of thing.
[2824]Q They were used as consultants,basically.
[2826]Page 34 aera ST
[2828]2
[2829]3 3
[2831]5
[2832]s 2
[2833]a
[2834]ivy
[2836]2. -
[2837]< a
[2838]3
[2839]é 4
[2840]5
[2843]8
[2845]X
[2846]g
[2847]10
[2849]WARD & PAUL
[2850]he
[2853]i]
[2854]Oo
[2857]oO
[2861]200G3
[2863]a oO
[2865]fav]
[2866]no
[2869]Cal
[2873]4
[2875]410 First Stroet, 5.E., Washington, O.C.
[2877]25
[2879]HY 50955 Docld: 322038
[2881]|
[2882]f
[2884]1
[2886]SECRET
[2888]32
[2890]A They were used as consultants, basically, yes.
[2891]ae) We have spoken about the investment American business
[2892]had in Cuba. Did it ever come to your attention that American
[2894]organized crime --
[2896]A No. :
[2897]Q -~ had considerable investment in Cuba? °
[2898]A No..Well, everybody knew that the Mafia was in
[2900]Cuba. I mean, all the casinos and this type of thing.
[2902]9 The casinos were run -- |
[2903]A I knew that long before. When I was in the Air Force
[2904]during the war, I used to fly into Havana cn weekends and this
[2906]type of thing.
[2908]Q I understand that. It was fairly wellknown. |
[2909]A It was a criminal element. | |
[2910]Q The Mafia was involved with the casinos in Havana. |
[2911]A Right.
[2912]Q Do you know of any attempts by the Agency to enlist
[2914]the support or assistance of any crime figures in any manner
[2916]whatsoever in the Agency's efforts against the Cuban regime?
[2918]A No.
[2920]Q Have you ever heard of Mr.Roselli?
[2922]A Oh, yes.
[2924]Q When was the first time you heard of Mr. Roselli?
[2926]A Well, I guess it was w- it seems to me it was either
[2928]Drew Pearson or Jack Anderson had an article on him a number
[2930]Page 35 LePaty
[2932]SECRET 7
[2934]Cc
[2935]3 x :
[2936]$ _ Of years ago.
[2937]z z
[2938]a ti a) Was that the first time you heard of the man's
[2939]= “oy name? |
[2940]3 | |
[2941]* x Yes, as I recall. |
[2942]~ 3 Q Is that also true of Sam Giancana?
[2943]J |
[2944]‘ “4 A No. I have heard that name but I don't know where. :
[2945]: i
[2947]i. Q In connection with -- |
[2948]i |
[2949]8 | A Not in connection with the Agency, no. |
[2951]9 4
[2952]9 Q In connection with the casinos or -- !
[2953]. . 7 :
[2954]a! A No !
[2955]1
[2956]7 | } |
[2957]@ il | Q -- gambling interests in Cuba? ;
[2958]7 ro |
[2959]Z +6 | A No.
[2962]ao Q You know of no instance in which organized crime
[2963]. ty i
[2964]€ H t
[2966]= a figures were used as consultants by the Agency?
[2967]29 i A Only what I read in the paper. I had no knowledge
[2968]16 i of that whatsoever.
[2969]q !
[2970].7 i Q Do you know of any offers of assistance from figures !
[2971]16 | of that type --
[2972]1
[2973]a Lo i A No.
[2974]=f h
[2975]3 .
[2976]3G eu y Q -~ who were interested in getting back into cuba?
[2977]a 1 H
[2978]¢ | |
[2979]3 el} A No.
[2980]Cc '
[2982]z a Q We were talking about economic warfare. We have
[2983]wi .
[2984]ad
[2985]= 25 || talked about attempts to keep the price of sugar low. What other
[2986]¢ i .
[2987]a ol . woe , .
[2988]zg a types of economic activities were conducted against Castro's |
[2989]2 as |
[2990]7 eo | Cuba? |
[2992]WW 50955 pocta: 32203461 Page 36 Secnewr
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[3065]HWY 50955 Docld: 32203851
[3067]er pa Rad i
[3068]SeCReT
[3070]34
[3072]A Well, we used all-source information to find out whet
[3074]his commercial dealings were. nen we would see -- well, for
[3075]instance, the Nicaro Nickel Mine which is a source owned
[3077]by the General Services Administration, finally got back into
[3078]production and nickel, of course, and still is -- was in short
[3080]who was :
[3082]the Treasury Department and to the Foreign Assets Control
[3083]people and said, isn't there something we can do to stop these |
[3084]iW exports coming into the United States? So thev Looke.i
[3086]|
[3087]into the thing and indeed they did. |
[3089]Q Who owned the mine? !
[3091]i
[3093]. . |
[3095]A The U.S. Government owned it when Castro took it |
[3096]over.
[3097].
[3099]Q I see. !
[3101]A General Services Administration. And it vas leased
[3103]out for operation. But the ownership rested with the
[3105]Government.
[3107]So the Treasury simoly made the provide a
[3108]Certificate of Origin for che nickel that went in -- they
[3109]export a lot of metal that contains nickel, silverware, knives
[3110]and forks, this type of thing, and -- you know, stainless
[3112]steel, and since nickel is used as a hardening agent we simply
[3114]-- Treasury simply said you can't import any more into this
[3116]Page 37 SECRET .
[3118]@ a SECRET -
[3120]fe
[3122]country until we have a Certificate of Origin. As a matter
[3123]of fact, there was a boat that was pulling into the dock in
[3125]New York and they wouldn't let it unload. They just turned it
[3127]Phone (Area 202) 644-6000
[3129]around. Eventually, over a period of months,§
[3131]found other sources and export privileges to the United States
[3133]|
[3134]1 at
[3135]| were restored,
[3136]9 fa :
[3137]i You know, it is -- you just -- any time you raise ;
[3138]8 |
[3139]ji : : - .
[3140], f or lower a tariff you have economic warfare. [It is that :
[3141]oy,
[3142]i simple. .
[3143]: 9 | ‘
[3144]~ @) Were there any other instances that you can recall
[3146]of economic warfare in which you enlisted the support of
[3148]pe
[3152]2 “© | American business firms? ;
[3153]5 :
[3154]AN 1s fl ;
[3155]. oe A I know we were in touch with a great many American
[3156]z |
[3158]B +“) business firms. We enlisted everybody's support that we could. .
[3159].
[3160]7+ ; . . .
[3161]15 | MR. MANFREDI: Off the record. i
[3162]| .
[3163].
[3164]16 i (Discussion off the record.)
[3165]Ae BY MR. MANFREDI:
[3166]|
[3168]18: 9 When we broke for a moment we were discussing other
[3170]3 ig tt instances where tne Agency has enlisted the support of Anericar
[3171]Z | :
[3172]J 60 | business in economic warfare against Cuba. Can you think of
[3173]C H 1
[3174]§ £1) any other such instances? |
[3175]z i ; |
[3176]3 o I ; . . i
[3177]= £2 4 A Oh, certainly. The Cubans were having an awful time |
[3178]ui 4 _
[3179]“ . i
[3180]@ 3 a3 with their Maritime fleet,such as it was. }
[3181]FA
[3182]z i
[3183]3 !
[3186]25 | people and told them -- asked them to cooperate with us,which }.
[3188]t
[3189]HW 50955 Docld:3220 |
[3191]51 Page 36 CF FRE P
[3193]Phone (Ares 202) 944-6000
[3195]an
[3199]WARD & PAUL
[3200]i ol
[3201]wo
[3203]x
[3204]ts
[3205]oD
[3207]$.£., Wastington, 0.C. 26003
[3211]440 Farsa Sircet,
[3213]25
[3215])
[3217]SECRET — |
[3219]they said they would. They notified their manufacturer's
[3221]representatives around the world if they got any orders from
[3223]|
[3225]the Cubans they were to be refused. This type of thing.
[3227]We; did-the same taing with --
[3228]Q Let's just stop for a second. Now, was
[3229])
[3231]compensated in any way for cooperation with the Agency? .
[3232]A No.
[3233]Q Were they compensated for the loss of business
[3235]involved in that, activity?
[3237]A No. No.
[3239]0) I take it, you received similar cooperation fron
[3240]other companies.
[3242]A Oh, a great many other companies, yes.
[3244]Q Did any American companies refuse to cooperate in
[3245]that manner?
[3247]A No. Not a one.
[3249]Q Were there any legal sanctions threatened agains’ in:
[3250]companies?
[3252]A No. No.
[3254]Q Were there any sanctions that could have been bre aii
[3256]to bear upon those companies had they chosen to trade with
[3257]Cuba?
[3259]A Well, in the first place, they couldn't trade with
[3260]Cuba. They couldn't get export licenses from this country...
[3262]anyway. Then, under the Foreign Assets Control Act of tn2
[3264]HW 50955 pocta: 32203451 Page 39 CeroecT
[3266]| SEC
[3269]f
[3270]|
[3273]37
[3274]: |
[3275]8 1
[3276]2 = Treasury Department you have the extra-territorialty clause |
[3277]a i in there where a subsidiary of an American company cannot -- |
[3278]f yt ul
[3279]Z
[3280]E i foreign subsidiary of an American company cannot trade with :
[3281]8 Z . i
[3282]a bo . : :
[3283]; the country that is designated and Cuba was a designated countcyy.
[3284]a |
[3285]5 3 . i
[3286]i And all the businessmen were well aware of this. Nobody tried
[3287]q i
[3288]"| to twist their arn. . :
[3289]7! | |
[3290]i Q Other than insuring that these companies refused |
[3291]ul |
[3292]8B |i . .
[3293]! to accept orders from Cuba, which I take it you feel they were:
[3295]i
[3296]9 i legally constrained from doing, what other types of support did
[3297]; | -
[3298]; pt : : . . i
[3299]16 | you receive from American business? 7
[3300]i . :
[3301]ll ; ; . |
[3302]@ . \ A Well, if American business -- sometimes they would |
[3303]2 le | receive correspondence, particularly, say, from -- well, they |
[3304]4
[3306]1 . . : . . .
[3307]3 1S | received it from Cuba asking for publications and this type :
[3308]« | |
[3309]g 14 4 . : .
[3310]3 a“ | of thing. They would normally forward all this type of thing |
[3311]25 | to the Commerce Department and the Treasury Department, or in |
[3312]16 | some instances they might call me and I would just give them
[3313]a
[3314]-' } a Post Office box to send che correspondence to. :
[3315]il - ; i
[3317]ig i Q Any other, types of support solicited or received by ;
[3319]i ;
[3320]2 12 i the Agency from American business?
[3323]ne o ay : .
[3324]¢ £9 i A No. Not that I can recall. There just wasn't one
[3328]g et firm we approached, and God knows we approached I don't know ;
[3329]z i
[3330]= 221 how many, that wasn't extremely cooperative. As a matter of ;
[3332]uy {| : . |
[3333]a sti! . _
[3334]@ g a5 fact, a lot of them, you know, thought we weren't doing enough,
[3335]a 4 .
[3336]2 £4 | that we ought to do a little more than we were doing, the
[3337]S |
[3338]= 25 |
[3340]government wasn't really pushing Cuba the way it should, but
[3342]51 Page 40 SECRET
[3346]se |
[3347]i i
[3348]2 ' H
[3349]3 a
[3350]= Outside of that, nothing. There wasn't any problem of coopera-!
[3352]é = tion. There wasn't any arm-twisting. It was all voluntary.
[3353]z to: |
[3354]: 3 Q Did you identify yourself-.as CIA -- |
[3355]° A Yes.
[3356]s
[3357]Q ~- in dealings with these companies? :
[3358]wo A Indeed, I do and we went to the top level, even .
[3360]the Board Chairman or the president. No problem at all. |
[3361]; Q Let's talk about paramilitary operations. We started
[3362]but didn't really discuss that in any depth.
[3363], What kind of paramilitary operations were run
[3364]. !
[3365]@ “| against Cuba by the CIA?
[3367]: ney A Maritime operations.
[3368]a , HI {
[3369]: aa Q Is that the extent of it?
[3370]c A !
[3371]€ ta . :
[3372]3 a A That is the extent of it.
[3373]se ll
[3374]aa 9 Were there any aerial operations? :
[3375]i . :
[3376]it :
[3377]16 | A Not to my knowledge.
[3378]i? i Q Leaflet drops?
[3379]|
[3380]aon A No,
[3381]i ; i
[3382]3 9 ie Q Bombing? |
[3383]o Ht i
[3384]¢ c0 A No. Of course, you had the over-flights. As far as |
[3385]CG a 1
[3386]- fi
[3387]3 a7 3 . . toe
[3388]3 <i: am concerned that is the only aerial activity.
[3390]3 rs i : .
[3391]ca ae i Q That was run by another directorate, wasn't it?
[3392]4 ail
[3393]a 2 £5 A Yes.
[3394]5 ;
[3395]3 a4 | Q Aerial photography, and so forth.
[3396]2 i
[3397]an s in
[3398]° in| A Yes. They run a flight when you ask them. It has to
[3399]i
[3401]HW 50955 Docld: 32203951 Page 41 Cr AY Se
[3403]HW 50955
[3406]! SECRET
[3407]FF : 39
[3408]g ;
[3409]g
[3410]2 be requested and that is about it.
[3411]z ; ; r@) And those were run out of the United States?
[3412]g oot
[3413]£ i A Oh, yes.
[3414]; i @) Can you think of anvthing, any other type of para-
[3415]QR
[3416]» military activity other than maritime operations.
[3417]” A No. I really can't, no.
[3418]~ - x
[3419]7 4
[3420]i Q Am I correct that those operations were manned
[3421]~ i by CIA contract employees?
[3422]s |
[3423]. h A Right.
[3424]oa.
[3425]we QO Which would include Cuban refugees.
[3426]} .
[3427]li? .
[3428]i A Right.
[3429]1
[3431]3 a Q And sone CIA ofiicers?
[3432]é 13 |
[3433]e vw ! ° .
[3434]Q A Rigat.
[3436]> _ k Q Any other branches of the services, Armed Services,
[3437]as lt : ;
[3438]“9 i involved? This, of course, is posted Bay of Pigs.
[3439]146
[3440]ae A Yes. No, not to my knowledge. You have got to vomenb
[3441]~ i that probably down fae Deut i Teadal mg Station Ae
[3442]OME i ena Sa
[3443]+S fF probably have people on detail from other -- from the m1 itary:
[3444]A
[3445]q
[3446]Z Ly . branches in the Government, but other than that I don't think
[3447]€ a
[3448]Oo on 4 . : :
[3449]y eld i that -- of course, during the Bay of Pigs operation we also
[3450]c i
[3451]2 "
[3452]3 ea | had people detailed into the Agency.
[3453]r i
[3454]3 3 lt ; . oo:
[3455]3 ec 4 Q Now, the training of persons involved in maritime
[3456]4
[3457]3 25 } operations, I take it, was conducted in part within the
[3458]a oa i
[3459]Z “= . United States and in part outside of the United States. Is
[3460]5 _|
[3461]. es | that correct?
[3463]Docld:32203851 Page 42
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[3549]Docld: 322034891 Page 43
[3551]'
[3555]40 |
[3557]A I would think probably the major portion of it was |
[3559]conducted within the United States. !
[3560]Q. considered within the United
[3562]States. |
[3564]A Oh, yes. ;
[3566]Qo Or were there any locations where it was conducted :
[3568]outside the United States? |
[3570]A Following the Bay of Pigs,I don't think so. Not |
[3572]to my knowledge.” I just don't know, I just don't recall
[3573]but I don't think that -- I think all the training was done
[3575]domestically.
[3577]Q Now, what kinds of operations are included within
[3579]this category of maritime operations?
[3580]A Well, the infiltration operations, infiltrating
[3582]agents into Cuba, exfiltrating agents, hit and run sabotage
[3584]raids. That is about the extent of it.
[3586]Q Now, when did these operations commence? ‘as it :
[3587]shortly after the Bay of Pigs?
[3589]A TI would -- I think these operations were probaly
[3590]at their height during the period about 1963 through, say, |
[3591]1967. The program was terminated in 1968, I think in Decerber |
[3592]1968, something like that. : {
[3594]Q . Why was the progran terminated?
[3596]A First of all, it was too expensive. It wasn't provid~
[3597]‘N
[3599]ing enough intelligence and it simply wasn't -- economically,
[3601]ee Te
[3603]to
[3605]Phone (Area 202) 544-6600
[3606]fay
[3608]WARD & PAUL
[3609]h
[3612]wy av) i kK t-
[3613]4 © ioe) ~~ fen) ea)
[3616]0
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[3621]a
[3622]Pe
[3624]416 Fiest Street, S.£., Washington, D.C. 20003
[3625]fale]
[3627]25
[3628]HW 50955 Docld: 32203
[3632]Q
[3634]Q
[3636]Forty Committee?
[3638]A
[3640]Q
[3642]A
[3644]Q
[3646]SECRET
[3648]41
[3650]it wasn't feasible to continue these things. The agents were
[3651]' gettiny wrapped up. We were -- we just felt that the return
[3653]wasn't sufficient for what the investment was.
[3655]You say the agents were getting wrapped up.
[3656]Yes.
[3657]What do you mean by that?
[3659]When we infiltrated an agent, Cubans would identify
[3661]him and capture him.
[3663]These various types of paramilitary operations that
[3665]were conducted by the Agency I trust were approved by the
[3667]co
[3669]Every operation received a specific approval fro-~
[3671]the Forty Committee.
[3673]In advance?
[3674]In advance.
[3676]Now, what was the procedure for submitting -- fer
[3678]initiating such an operation?
[3680]A
[3682]Q
[3684]A
[3686]Well, normally in the case of an infil or an oxf:1.
[3688]or perhaps we wanted to lay down the cache.
[3690]You are referring to a cache of arms.
[3692]A cache of anything, replay of radio, batteries,
[3694]whatever they might need. If we decided that we should rave
[3696]one of these operations and the request would go from here
[3698]over to the, I guess to the White House and then the Forty
[3700]Committee at its weekly meeting -- they used to meet very
[3702]Page 44
[3704]HW 50955
[3707]3 1 .
[3708]. “' frequently -~ they would either approve the operation or sat
[3709]g i q v
[3710]g 24 . .
[3711]2 i no. These operations had to be planned well in advance because
[3712]3 ‘| .
[3713]g oi ; : .
[3714]2 i the tides had to be right, the moon had to be in the proper
[3715]Z Li
[3716], phase for communications and this type of thing. And these
[3717]5: .
[3718]yj things, all these were coordinated with the Joint Chiefs of
[3719]i) : : .
[3720]Bon .
[3721]s Staff, the Navy, the Coast Guard, the FBI. If we were
[3722]7 ib
[3723]{ exiltrating people, the Immigration and Naturalization Service
[3724]Vt
[3725]f
[3727], Every Government agency or enforcement agency or military
[3728]|
[3729]: 9 i agency that had any involvement whatsoever, and the entire
[3730]10 | thing was coordinated.
[3732]tf 4 Q Do you know of any such paramilitary operations
[3733]q H ,
[3734]3 12 | that were run unbeknownst to the Forty Committee?
[3735]e , il
[3736]« 13 | A No.
[3737]is] I
[3738]& i
[3739]z 14 i fe) What kind of volume of operations are we talking
[3740]13 il
[3741]“9 1 about?.
[3742]\ .
[3743]25 ; A You are not talking about a very big volume of
[3745]7 i operations because of the planning that had to go into these
[3746]t
[3747]ue things. I would say that probably at the height of the thing
[3748]2 19 {. they may be running three or four a month. No more than that.
[3749]g
[3750]& =. i
[3751]C 20 | Q You have heard Eugenio Martinez refer to having
[3752]Cc
[3753]3 “i | run 300 operations.
[3754]3 £2 | A I have seen that.
[3755]u i
[3756]w a? .
[3757]S zo | Q Is that inaccurate?
[3758]2 1
[3759]A i
[3760]3 4 | A Well, it all depends on what is in his mind. He
[3763]. £5 | may have considered some of the training exercises as opera-
[3765]Docld:32903851 Page 45
[3767]en mee sao Om ca
[3769]|
[3770]|
[3771]|
[3772]|
[3773]|
[3774]H
[3775])
[3776]i
[3777]i
[3778]j
[3780]ieee see
[3782]1
[3783]a
[3787]@ | SECRET | :
[3789]43 :
[3791]: ~ tions. Obviously, these guys trained. In order to run one |
[3792]s i; of these operations, you know, you would have to have a mothor |
[3794]: 7 ship in place and rubber boats and fEVeMUDA) people to go in to
[3795]3
[3796]& : see if there were mines and this type of thing on the shore
[3798]“ \
[3799]5° before you go. So he may have considered chat all these train- |
[3800]6 ing exercises were operations but no way did he ever partici- :
[3801]7 ; pate in any three or 400 active operations into Cuba.
[3802]7
[3803]: 8 Q Now, from what specific locations were these !
[3804]; 9 operations launched? :
[3805]16 i A They were mostly launched from Reg
[3806]iH , , ‘
[3807]& ; 12 rf Q Any other locations?
[3808]|
[3809]2 ie A Not to my knowledge.
[3810]< q
[3811]< 29 ' Q Now, would you describe for me the kind of hit and
[3812]Q
[3813]: is : run sabotage operations that were conducted?
[3814]yf .
[3815]+5 i A Well, we conducted one hit and run sabotage against |
[3816]af . .
[3817]16 | the Texaco refinery. |
[3818]~ i Q What used to be the Texaco refinery?
[3819]iF
[3820]is A | What used to be the Texaco refinery. |
[3821]2 Lg i" MR. MANFREDI: Off the record. |
[3822]2 '
[3823]: re | (Discussion off the record.)
[3824]3 el ‘THE WITNESS: These things, a great amount of planning
[3825]z i . }
[3826]3 22 i went into these things. We did have a model of the refinery. |
[3827]wi i
[3828]d 2g | We agonized over the best approach to the refinery and this
[3829]: 26 | type of thing to do the most effective damage. This was run. Tt)
[3830]3 25 | was successful, as I recall, not totally successful but it was |
[3831]H
[3832]1
[3834]HW 50955 Docta: 32203851 Page 46 Creer Pwr
[3838]@ : | SeCRet | “4
[3840]: * a successful operation. By that, I mean tney didn't do as
[3841]5
[3842]3 ° much damage as they wanted to because they had to get out
[3843]: ; 3 because the Cuban defense came after them. It was that type
[3844]3 % of operation that we did.
[3845]5 : As I recall, another time we took a team in to burn |
[3847]é : some cane fields. Really, the classical operations that we
[3848]7 ; did in the maritime activities were the infiltrations and |
[3849]8 exfiltrations. a |
[3850]; 9 Q Were any CIA operations run out of Guantanamo? |
[3851]16 A Not to my knowledge.
[3852]il Q Was it impractical to use the base there for --
[3853]2 1lé A Well, the base is so surrounded and has been that |
[3854]‘ 13 ! I think if a guy went through that fence you would carry him: |
[3855]o H 1
[3856]: 14! back. He wouldn't walk. |
[3857]1g MR. MANFREDI: Off the record. |
[3858]16 (Discussion off the record.) |
[3859]i
[3860]u7 i. MR. MANFREDI: bac on the record.
[3861]ié BY MR. MANFREDI:
[3863]19 i Q Are there any other categories of sabotage{#
[3864]26 Mother than what you have just described?
[3865]Pal A Well, we did lay down a cache, if you will, sabotage |
[3866]22 : kits to be used by our own island agents. They contained
[3868]i
[3869]23 sugar to dump into gas tanks and metal fragments to put down |
[3871]crank cases. Things of this nature.
[3873]ma
[3874]Le
[3876]410 First Sircer, §.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003
[3878]25 One of our main objects was to, of course, sabotage
[3881]HY 50955 Docld: 32203051 Page 47 of ot 2m iF, oe aR
[3883]% all the oil. We did that with a big operation. We made our
[3885]own oll, substandard. Additives, I should say, not oil. Wwe
[3887]Phone (Arua 207) 244-6060
[3888]cr)
[3890]i
[3894]j contracted with an American firm for that. And we shipped
[3895]t - .
[3897]it in through thicd countries in Europe. It did hit the target.;
[3900]6 4 The thing we wanted to get at was the oil and the :
[3903]“ 4 automotive machinery on the island. We knew it was breaking :
[3905]° i. down and if we could get a cohplete breakdown we would have i
[3906]i
[3907]a |
[3908]. } everything at a standstill because in those days the automotive
[3910]g | : : . : ;
[3911]9 equipment wasn't coming in that rapidly from Europe because
[3912]10 \ Castro didn't hve the money to buy it and they weren't going ta
[3913]Li } . i
[3914]; ~ | extend the credit. :
[3915]=) 2 | . '
[3916]2 i | The railroad system was in total disaster. The |
[3917]. . {
[3918]a _ |
[3919]: 15 i Soviets had such a long loyistics line, supply line, plus
[3921]¢ aa . . , : . :
[3922]3 14 4 the fact that the Cubans didn't like the Soviet equipment
[3923]Ht . 4
[3924]25 | because they were used to good American equipment. And these
[3925]t
[3926]1é | were principal targets that we were trying to get to.
[3927]f
[3928]af i Q In your experience at the Agency can you think of
[3929]i.
[3930]‘1s i any other analogus or similar paramilitary operations run
[3931]2 lg ; from a base in the United States?
[3932]& a
[3933]f q i" :
[3934]C £0 jl A No.
[3935]G i
[3936]3 al i 9 I know there has been some paramilitary traininy
[3939]z 22 in the United States.
[3940]oe H
[3941]” Sz i
[3942]) < Bo | A Oh, yes..:
[3943]g
[3944]B Hf .
[3945]2 Eo G In connection with other operations.
[3946]3
[3947]> 25 A Oh, sure.
[3949]\ aw 50955 pocra: 3220361 Page 48 SECRET
[3951]i mg"
[3952]! S203 ET 46
[3953]5
[3954]“ Q But do you know of any paramilitary operations that
[3955]a yy j
[3956]a a woos \
[3957]Ea i were actually run out of the United States?
[3958]3 u i
[3959]4 ee . . :
[3960]~ Fi A Wo. ‘
[3961]z a : ;
[3962]nor Q As far as you know, then, this is a totally unicgus
[3963]» Situation.
[3964]ei A . As far as I am concerned, it is, yes.
[3965]° i Q Now, how large a Navy was actually organized in
[3966], 5 | Miami? On a previous occasion you described this to me as
[3967]|
[3968]I .
[3969]oman : : : .
[3970]. ° i the third largest Navy in the Caribbean.
[3971]aa A That is right.
[3972]|
[3974]@ ii v Q What kind of equipment did these people have?
[3975]a
[3976]f
[3978]WARD & PAUL
[3981]fa)
[3983]8
[3985]as
[3987]410 feest Sucet, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 200023
[3989]. 25 |i ]
[3990]HW 50955 Docld: 32203841 Page 49
[3992]Sa Pe P "SD SS i
[3993]SECRET |
[3996]3 + i
[3997]$ - te Lo i
[3998]af 0 Fishing companies? \
[3999]a . t {
[4002]oe i
[4003]q ) )
[4005]8
[4007]ay
[4008]6,
[4009]‘ a '9 Did any of these companies actually engage in any
[4010]oy i .
[4011]| legitimate commercial activities?
[4012]‘ 8 i
[4013]I A Not to my knowledge, no.
[4014]3 -
[4015]i Q None of them ~- were any of them in competition with
[4016]“~“". firms in that area?
[4018]“ii A These are probably what we would cal :
[4019]5 12 |
[4021]< 4
[4022]a i
[4023]é 15 4
[4024]Q i
[4026]3 14!
[4027]|
[4028]veal!
[4030]af.
[4031]ant Q What did Eugenio Martinez do when he wasn’t running
[4032]a ; these operations?
[4033]F
[4034]ao A Well, he was down -- this is one of the reasons, as |
[4036]2 19 1" rt told you before, we brought him back and put him under that
[4037]oe |
[4038]““ | contract, that retainer, because of the years that he spent
[4039]5 22h . : : . :
[4040]3 “+ i; under such strict operational discipline
[4041]z i :
[4042]2 oe , Obviously, he didn't stay down there all the time. He . ‘
[4043]a .{
[4044]3 eo : came back -- he might come back once a month, or something
[4045]& F
[4046]é <* like that, to see his family, verhaps once every two weeks
[4047]2 fF
[4048]7 25 i ;
[4050]‘ if he got some time off.
[4051]HW 50955 Docld:32203851 Bage 50
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[4148]i
[4149]HW 450955 Docld: 32203851
[4151]| SECRET “8
[4153]6) I see. So some of these boats and personnel were
[4155]actually stationed full-time §f
[4157]A On, yes. Oh, Sure. }
[4159]Q Were there any operations run out of the United
[4161]States which involved destruction of crops or poisoning of
[4162]Sugar or anything of that sort?
[4163]A What did you have in mind specifically? You mean the |
[4165]Puerto Rican thing?
[4167]A Well, that is one of the things I had in mind.
[4169]Would you describe that for me?
[4170]A Well, this is, I guess you could term it a target of
[4172]opportunity. This was where a vessel was carrying Cuban sugar
[4174]to the Soviet Union and I forget exactly now what happened to
[4176]it but I know that it got a hole below the waterline, or
[4178]something, and had to put into Puerto Rico for repairs.
[4180]In order to repair it, I guess, and get it in the
[4181]drydock or wherever it was, they had to remove the sugar and
[4182]put it in the warehouse and at that time I guess somebody came |
[4183]up with a plan to try to widen the rift between ~~ there was
[4184]a rift at that time between the Soviets and Cubans and to
[4185]put a harmless substance into the sugar that would make it
[4186]acid, sour tasting, and it wouldn't harm the sugar or the
[4188]individual, and some of this was done. And then when it
[4190]leaked, of course, we had to get rid of it and we had a sugar
[4192]firm buy it back from the Soviets.
[4193]Page 51 ,
[4195]row]
[4197]Phone (Area 202) 444-6000
[4199]4
[4201]WARD & PAUL
[4202]be
[4205]AlO First Street, S.E., Washington, O.C. 200043
[4206]Lay)
[4207]as)
[4209]25
[4210]HW 50955 Docld: 32203051
[4212]SECRET a
[4214]49
[4215]2 Bought it back from the Soviets? |
[4216]A Yes. |
[4217]i
[4218]MR. MANFREDI: Off the record.
[4219]i
[4220](Discussion off the record.) i
[4221]MR.MANFREDI: Back on the record, .
[4222]BY MR. MANFREDI: :
[4223]i
[4224]Q Are there any other operations in which crops were ‘
[4225]1
[4226]~- were there attempts to destroy crops in Cuba? i
[4227]A No. No. i
[4228]Q Place foreign substances in Cuban products?
[4229]A In Cuban products? {
[4230]16] Yes.
[4231]A No. Not that I recall. You see, Cuba really -- in
[4233]those days the only thing, Cuba was exporting sugar and nickel.
[4235]|
[4237]'
[4239]The agriculture sector of the economy was in absolutely total
[4241]chaos. God, they didn't have any citrus, they didn't have
[4243]anything, and the poor people in Cuba were literally starving.!
[4245]There just wasn't anything to eat. And Fidel was going around
[4246]with this big plan ~-- of course, there were a number of
[4248]experimental cattle ranches in Cuba. King Ranch had one there.
[4249]|
[4250]I forget -- several other European and American companies that
[4252]had experimental cattle ranches there and they were experiment-|
[4254]ing with the, you know, cross~breeding and this type of thing.
[4255]Fidel was preoccupied with this. He went up to |
[4257]Canada, and paid $100,000 for a bull and -- so he just put it
[4259]age
[4263]Phone (Area 202) 944-6000
[4265]WARD & PAUL
[4267]W
[4269]410 First Street, S.E., Wastington, O.C. 20003
[4270]rau]
[4271]a
[4273]25
[4275]HW 50955 DociId: 32203
[4277]|
[4279]1
[4281]|
[4283]SeCReT
[4285]50
[4287]on an old Cuban Airways airolane. The damn airplane few too
[4289]high and the bull became sterile by the time he landed in
[4291]Cuba. No thought given to, you know, pressurizing the cabin
[4293]and keeping the tamperature at a certain point and this type
[4295]of thing.
[4297]So he was helping us all along the line and
[4299]this here again, we generate propaganda, incompetence and this
[4301]type of. thing.
[4303]But as far as sabotaging any Cuban product, no, we
[4305]didn't go into that. Our object was to enforce the blockade
[4307]and cut off his sources of supply.
[4309]Q
[4311]A
[4313]Q
[4315]A
[4317]Q
[4319]When was the Miami Station established?
[4320]As a station?
[4321]Yes.
[4323]I think in September 1961.
[4325]And that was several years before you became involved
[4327]in Cuban matters?
[4329]A
[4331]Q
[4333]Yes.
[4335]Do you know of any other facilities of that nature
[4337]within the United States, Agency facilities?
[4339]A
[4341]Q
[4343]A
[4345]Q
[4347]A
[4349]You mean, targeted against the opposition?
[4350]Yes.
[4352]A station as such?
[4354]Yes.
[4356]No. You have some communications facilities that
[4358]you really call stations because here again, they are not
[4360]Page 53
[4362]ae a a I, Oo aR
[4364]Pnone (Area 202) 444-0060
[4368]oO
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[4424]26 |
[4425]HW 50955 seorasaes0abs3 ccamnens
[4427]directed towards any domestic activity. They are in support of
[4429]SECRET 51
[4431]overseas communications.
[4433].@)
[4434]Office of
[4435]A
[4437]Q
[4439]Of course, we hav bases and DCD offices and
[4441]Security officers, and so forth.
[4443]Right.
[4445]But I am talking about actual stations.
[4446]Operating stations, no. ‘
[4447]This is the only such station in the United States
[4449]you know, is that correct?
[4451]Right.
[4453]And was this station established to deal primarily.
[4455]with Cuban activities?
[4457]A Yes.
[4459]Q Cuban-related matters?
[4461]A With Cuba, period.
[4463]Q Did it have, when it was established, any other
[4464]responsibilities with respect to Western Hemisphere activ. ‘ic
[4466]A Not to my knowledge.
[4468]Q Entirely limited, then, to Cuban activities?
[4470]A Yes, and in support of Cuban activity and otner
[4472]countries in the Hemisphere.
[4474]Q
[4476]When you joined the group dealing with Cuban
[4478]activities, what was the size or the number of personne:
[4480]attached to that Station?
[4482]A
[4484]To that Station? Well, the Station had probably 4
[4486]oo ee et eS ye RP
[4488]we
[4490]52
[4491]3
[4492]E ~ ‘ couple hundred staffers there, full-time employees of the
[4493]& 24
[4494]a i Agency, olus I don't know how many contract employees,
[4495]3 iH i
[4496]= = Hy j
[4498]2 independent contractors, probably another 200 minimum. It was |
[4499]9 4 :
[4500]& Bool . . i
[4501]* : Obviously the largest installation we had. I think at its i
[4503]5 3 eos i
[4504]i height it had over 500 people in it. :
[4505]il 4
[4506]“oy Q Full-time Agency people?
[4507]7 !
[4508]i A No, no. ;
[4509]i |
[4510]8 : . ;
[4511]‘ | Q Combination of contract and ~~ |
[4512]- :
[4513]a A And full-time, yes. A regular employee we call a sta:
[4514]hare) H ‘
[4515]“0 employee. i
[4516]re \
[4517]@ ii | Q Now, would Martinez have been one of those contract |
[4518]ai
[4519]i 1é 4 people? |
[4520]: | |
[4521]a 15 i A Yes. !
[4522]t |
[4523]2 4 | Q Even though he was located ft |
[4525]a) I: 1
[4526]25 | A Oh, yes.
[4527]ut , i
[4529]ae i Q And what kind of facilities did the Station have in
[4530]‘Miami? .Physical facilities.
[4531]|
[4532]Well, they were located {
[4534]if : -
[4535]243
[4536]i °
[4538]410 First Street, S.E., Washington, O.C. 20003
[4540]4
[4542]f
[4543]25 | A
[4544]HW 50955 Docld: 32203861 Page 55
[4547]; SECRET .
[4549]33
[4551]What was the cover?
[4553]Prone (Area 202) 444-6000
[4555]; Q Engaging in any business?
[4558]A No.
[4559]x . -
[4560]moe . . . i
[4562]; Q Now, in a community of that type, Cuban community,
[4563]& i
[4564]is
[4566]g il
[4568]activities. Funded --
[4570]ad
[4571]3
[4572]= | 3
[4573]‘ 1S | Q Yes, I understand
[4574]rel il 4 ° i
[4575]: |
[4576]TA a : * 3
[4577]3 ~s A So it was a research activity and the only people thak
[4579]ace . : i
[4580]-“ i aver paid.any attention to the place were the newspapers. You
[4582]spk ; . : i
[4583]~" know, somebody would make an inquiry, you know, we can't accept
[4584]ar -
[4585]-' 4 any work, we are loaded with Government contracts and this
[4586]4 !
[4587]25" type of thing, |
[4588]3 _
[4589]o
[4590]oO
[4591]1 ot i
[4593]G 4 i
[4594]¢ a. |
[4595]a ~ | force, i
[4596]3 22 | to the Pinkerton people and this type of thing. And I think
[4597]wi i |
[4598]2 eo |
[4601]ey |
[4602]0 |
[4603]2 cc | ; .
[4604]‘ £S ii Government agencies, in other buildings, of course. |
[4605]i ‘ '
[4607]HW 50955 pocta: 32203861 Page 56
[4609]Pal
[4610]a)
[4612]6 : SECRET a
[4614]19 And this particular Station, then, was under the
[4616]’ supervision of the group we have been discussing?
[4618]Phone (Area 202} 5944-6000
[4620]Hemisphere Division, he brought it back into the Division. .
[4622]i
[4623]God = . . . .
[4624]: A Yes. They were staffed within the Cuban Operations. ;
[4625], i
[4626]° ; Q. When did the Western Hemisphere Division resume
[4627]t o t
[4628]5 A - : a + . . »
[4629]“ 1! yesponsibilities for the Miami Station?
[4630]i Pp
[4631]ih ~ . -
[4633]\ ° / A Well, when Des. Fitzgerald left as Chief of the
[4634]ni |
[4635]‘ | Special Activities Staff and became Chief of the Western
[4638]WARD & PAUL
[4640]7
[4641]Lv Q When you joined the group in 1963, what functions
[4642]ad were being performed by the Miami Station?
[4643]i i
[4644]; n) : A Well, all the classical intelligence functions. I
[4645]zo think I have lined them out at one time -- collection of |
[4646]} positive intelligence, counterintelligence, paramilitary, this |
[4647]|
[4649]type of thing. Covert action.
[4651]Q This is the list of things you gave me earlier in
[4653]410 karst Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003
[4655]|
[4657]t
[4661]|
[4663]the deposition? |
[4665]25 A Yes.
[4666]HY 50955 Docld:32203391 Page 57
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[4726]HW 50955 Docld: 322034
[4728]SECRET
[4730]55
[4732]i
[4733]i
[4734]j
[4736]i
[4738]Q Which of these activities, if any of them were
[4739]+ i
[4740]actually being conducted within the Cuban community in Miami? |
[4742]A Well, the collection of foreign positive and probably:
[4744]'
[4745]counterintelligence.
[4746]: i
[4748]0 So the Agency was conducting counterintelligence ©
[4750]activities in the Miami arca?
[4751]A Yes, sir. : !
[4753]Q Can you give me an example of the kinds of counter-
[4755]intelligence activities that the Agency would be conducting
[4756]in that area or was conducting in the area at that time?
[4758]A Well, we had a number of joint operations, as 1
[4759]recall, with the Bureau. We had identified a Castro agent tha
[4761]came in by small boat and when she was -- she came in with a
[4763]ce ae eee owl Cetera amemime
[4765]t :
[4766]number of other people. When she hit the -- they had a reccp-
[4768]tion center up in Opa Loca that was really a HEW operation.
[4770]we did, too. Our people from the DDO
[4772]i
[4773]i
[4774]preliminary interrcsgation of these people they had to fill !
[4775]out forms, where were you born, this type of thing, biographic-
[4777]type thing. These forms would be passed to our people who woul.
[4779]look at the forms and based on previous experience or what
[4781]they might have been doing, md they felt that perhaps they
[4783]might have some information of intelligence value, they would
[4785]reinterrogate them.
[4787]51 Page 56 . t
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[4857]36
[4859]It was in this manner that this gal came to our
[4860]knowledye. We surveilled her for a long time and determined '
[4862]that obviously she was receiving messages and she was !
[4864]sending messages. So along with the Bureau we put a surveillar-
[4866]‘on her and we obtained a van with DF equipment in it and
[4868]indeed, she went on the air in the morning at 5:00 0 clock
[4869]or 4:30 or whatever it was, and the direction finder found
[4871]it was being beamed toward Cuba, this type of thing, and that
[4872]was oen of the examples of the CI activities we were involved
[4873]in. |
[4875]Q. Were there many activities of that type?
[4877]A, Not really. You have got to remember that the
[4878]Bureau's Cuban squad was fairly small. I mean, it was a larce
[4879]squad in terms of FBI squads. It had 36 people on it, some-
[4880]thing like that, but 36 people trying to follow a couple of
[4881]hundred thousand Cubans around, you know, it is pretty reda-
[4882]tive. This was one of the reasons that obviously fron --
[4883]in those days when we had formed these revolutionary fronts
[4884]which were being run by the Cuban exiles, they were reportin?
[4885]tosCase Officers and they would report on things in the
[4886]community, of people they thought were suspect and this type
[4887]of thing. These leads in turn were then given to the Bureau
[4888]and it was to this extent that we got ourselves involved
[4889]in CI activity.
[4891]Q Would it be fair to say that the involvement in C!
[4893]HW 50955 Docld: 322034851 Page 59 om on am oo, wen onee
[4895]Phone {Area 202) 541-6000
[4897]‘. A Yes, yes. You have got to remember, too, that a lot
[4898]5
[4899]| O£ the people on that Cuban squad were in the legal section
[4900]Gu . - ;
[4901]' of the Embassy in Havana. You know, the FBI overseas is
[4902]te 1 .
[4903]? u
[4904]i known as Legal Attaches, obviously working out of the Embassy
[4905]8 } .
[4906]* the same as our Station was, and a lot of our Station officers
[4907]2 | :
[4908]j| from Havana were down in Miami at that time. So there was a
[4909]ane) i
[4910]relationship there that had gone over a period of years
[4912]; Ll
[4913]es) j between the Agency and the Bureau.
[4914]4 12 |
[4915]3 MR.MANFREDI: We will reconvene at 1:00 o'clock.
[4916]a iH
[4917]8 Le | :
[4918]a (Whereupon, at 11:45 o'clock a.m., the taking of
[4919]Q i
[4922]i the devosition was recessed, to reconvene at 1:00 p.m., this
[4923]a= |
[4924]““ same day.)
[4926]7 & t
[4930]|
[4931]” Lyi
[4932]2 {
[4933]8 H
[4934]& .
[4935]J eu
[4936]o i
[4937]: |
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[4939]S 2. 4
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[4945]< 254
[4946]g 4
[4947]a x ~ |
[4948]2 24
[4950]g -
[4951]3 zs |
[4953]HW 50955 socra-aonvad(e Page 60
[4955]4 to properly staff the thing?
[4957]ere,
[4959]57
[4961]. . i
[4962]activities in that area was primarily a function of the over-
[4964]a whelming number of these people and the Bureau's inability
[4966]'
[4968]“CLENNEING mal 1 Rall gle Fons
[4969]fig mba . SEGRE: 59
[4970]3 APTERNOON SESSION
[4971]: |
[4972]2 Thereupon, :
[4973]8 |
[4974]“ t
[4975]3 WILLIM! C, STURBITTS,
[4976]Z |
[4977]2 called as a witness bv Counsel for the Commission on CIA
[4978]; .
[4979]= Activities, and having been first dulv sworn hy the Notary
[4980]Public, was examined and testified as follows: ' “
[4982]yo EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE COMMISSION (Cont'é@) !
[4983]7 : i
[4984]i
[4985]am BY MR. MANFRENTI: - . . |
[4987]5 * 0. When we recessed for lunch vou were talking about the |
[4988]vad Miami Station . Do I understand that the Miami Station was the!
[4989]1: "largest CIA station in the world? ;
[4992]vail A The largest CIA station in the world. !
[4993]5 ~~ y
[4994]< » 0 At its height?
[4995]8 134
[4996]a 4 : . :
[4997]« we A. Nothing comes anyplace close to it. i
[4998]z an , .
[4999]2 ¢ I wonder if vou could describe brieflv for the record:
[5001]4 - roa
[5002]_. ) What the @MMOESy were.
[5003]: A. Well, the@MPfeRS§ were Cuban a Cuban intellicaence
[5004]a
[5005]_. } organization in exile. We full intended -- this was part of the
[5006]we
[5007]i overall contingency oDlan that US Government had. Should Castro |
[5008]Vp
[5009]2 --
[5010]3 ever be overthrown, these neonle would be the nucleus to qo ints
[5011]| Cuba and form a new Ministrv of the Interior.
[5012]214i .
[5013]; - 0 Now, Ministry of the Interior, is that a euphemism
[5016]for Security Agency?
[5018]A Well, in most countries of the world the Ministry of
[5020]Interior, unlike ours, is the security force, internal and
[5022]410 Farsi Sircet, $.£., Washington, O.C.
[5024]25 |
[5025]4
[5027]HW 50955! DocId: 32203851 Page 61 a et am em,
[5029]ye
[5032]i H Ge PSR
[5033]® i? SECRET 59
[5036]8 : 0. And thease neonle ware Cuban exiles?
[5040]3 s
[5042]z Puen A _Cuban oniles,
[5043]@ H i
[5044]z b :
[5045]é eo 0. How large an outfit were the Qalig: ;
[5046]¢ iH . H
[5047]= 7 A Well, at one time -- I can qive vou the exact Figures
[5049]but I know it well exceeded over 199, prohably closer to --
[5051]FS : 0. Go ahead, .
[5052].
[5053]q ot A. Probablv closer to 159, something like that.
[5054]A
[5055]4 - ; - oy:
[5056]& 4 0, Now, would that 159 persons he included within the
[5057]é if
[5058]i .
[5059]| . ;
[5060]g three to 599 who_made up the ‘tiami Station? ;
[5062]1D r A No.
[5063]@ | 0. That was over and above the personnel of the “iami
[5066]-5 | Station?
[5067]4 am }
[5068]3 1
[5069]z igh |
[5070]‘ 13 | A Right.
[5072]< - i 0. These people were fulltime CIA employes, weren't thev?
[5074]aa A. Right, WELL, let me -- these people really were -- -
[5075]te they were
[5076]“
[5077]a 3.3
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[5092]3 a !
[5093]a ot a The salaries of thease peonle, although paid indirectly,
[5094]2 as ii
[5095]~ 1 .
[5096]2 | were naid by the CIA? {
[5098]HW 50955 poctd:3220381 Page 62
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[5171]< 25
[5173]HY 409545 Docld: 32203451 Page 63
[5175]|
[5177]5 SECRET so
[5179]A That is right.
[5180]ia] And was training provided then bv the Aqenev? oa
[5181]. t
[5183]0 Oh, ves.
[5184]i
[5186]sos . '
[5188]A. Yon said the smaller group of the two qrouns that maco
[5190]up theGiigas} conducted the interrogations, ts that correct?
[5192]rz Right. ; oO ”
[5193]x . ; . . .
[5194]0. When vou speak of interrogations, are vou referring ta
[5195]debriefings?
[5196]A, tT am referring to cehriefines of newly arrived exiles ~
[5198]or perhaps exiles that had heen in the country whon during their
[5200]time here had accuired new information.
[5202]ra) How were those -- how and where were those debriefing
[5203]1
[5204]conducted?
[5205]A Well, normally the debriefinds were conducted at Ona ;
[5206]Loca,
[5208]re That is the Air fase?
[5209]A. That is the old Airc Base there but that 1s vere to
[5211]reception center was for all the Cuban refucees comins in. ,
[5213]Sometimes if there was qoindg to be a lengtnv debriefing, we had :
[5214]a residence which we rented and the interior was chanted into
[5215]small rooms like this where vou could bring people in, Sit then
[5216]down, under controlled coneaitions,and debrief them withonr anv |
[5218]interference and this tvne of thing.
[5220]0. For how lonq a neriod did these debriefings aq on? ‘
[5222]a
[5224]8 ‘ SECRET 1
[5225]ce Beem J :
[5226]8 A, You meer in terms of vears? ;
[5227]. : i
[5228]5
[5229]g m3 & Yes. '
[5230]z ae A. Well, I would think that I would vrobably sav fron
[5231]= FF : H
[5232]€ ' . . . gs :
[5233]2 , » about 1952, and I think the debriefings as such, of course --  :
[5234]. we relied principally on the airlift for the people comind out
[5235]C and whan the airlift was cut off, which Castro did -- cut of
[5236]I ‘
[5237]7 + about, I. quess about 1979 or '71, in that timeframe -- :
[5238]4 i
[5239], at a. I see,
[5240]; . .
[5241]9 i A. ~~ that stonned tne flow of the refucees, so we just |
[5242]4 . : a
[5243]jo | terminated that part of the activity.
[5245]ty ‘ . . . . . : .
[5246]@ aq d 0. Well, in addition to debriefing refugees that care ;
[5247]m4 |
[5249]-o | in in the airlift, did the smailer group of {MWe have anv other
[5250]a be i .
[5251]3 u
[5252]é 12 | intelliqence gathering functions --.
[5255]< te F A, NO.
[5256]a4 0. In the community?
[5258]_ A A Well, I can't qive vou a real ves or no to that. :
[5259]_. §, would suppose that there is an outside possibility thes “10°:
[5260]a! i ;
[5261]i have been used to debrief peonle within the community, within
[5262]Lo | b - .
[5263]. ;. the Cuban community, but we had in the orqanization -- ail tanec:
[5264]7 4 .
[5265]é _' people were Cuban with the exception of we had what we call an
[5266]G Eo 4
[5267]c : . . .
[5268]2 i On-Site Case Officer, who was a fulltime staff emplovee ant re
[5269]3 Ct .
[5270]2 oo
[5271]3 | had a couple of assistants, including a secretarv. ‘These peo.l
[5272]z ge u .
[5273]: | ; . . .
[5274]& , ! were directly under his control. Though the organization as it
[5275]R | Was set up, they had their oun chief and this type of thin,
[5276]2 | but the chief took his instructions from the On-Site Case Srficer
[5277]= 25 | :
[5279]HW 40955 Docld: 32203851 Page 64
[5281]Ua
[5283]Phone (Arca 202) 544-6000
[5285]Of
[5287]their os.
[5289]You can'
[5291]sourse, if these people went out and did something on
[5293]mn, they could do things we were not aware of, obviousl-.
[5295]See Ret 62
[5297]e
[5299]tf -- you know what thev are doing during their eight or
[5300], ~ ten hours that thow are going to work evervday but once they i
[5302]5 5 leave, we don't’ know what they are up to. H
[5304]aot 0. Did they have CIA credentials?
[5305]x we
[5306]7 i A. No sir, because Gime gin
[5307]i
[5308]a i
[5309]3;
[5310]. qf 0. Nid CIA levy anv intelligence requirements upon these
[5311]~ 4
[5312]i! . : . . : . . .
[5313]>, i; people other than in their duties ~~ in their debriefing
[5314]ad .
[5316]jo
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[5373]¢ 29 |
[5375]HW 50955 DoclId: 32203651
[5377]capacity, I should sav?
[5379]A.
[5381]| Standard debriefing form that covered questions of intellicencs
[5383]0.
[5385]; smaller broup of
[5386]4
[5388]A,
[5390]Page 65
[5392]No. When -- there were -- obviously there was a
[5394]i interest or a battle, vou know, anvthing -- economic questions,
[5395]i morale, and this type of thing. When these questions -- wher
[5396]these neonle were cebriefed and the debriefer wrete cm th
[5398]i report, it would be sent from the Gers) over to the Sration.
[5400]If the debriefing report contained something of ros.tive
[5402]|. intelligence, of that nature, the Case Officer -- well, not the
[5403]4
[5405]i Case Officer but a staffer in the Station may or mav not jot
[5406]down some additional requirements and ask that that person he
[5408]i racontacted and askea snecific questions.
[5410]Now, in addition to debriefing, what else did this
[5412]Moon Go for the Agencv in the Miami area?
[5415]e
[5419]This was their prime purnose.
[5421]CRet 63
[5423]6 Mor an!
[5424]he a Se :
[5425]: al How larqa was that ‘particular qroun? i
[5426]|
[5427]Oo qh. Oh, there were only ahout, I would say at the outsice,
[5429]To think there were about five Jeabriefers with the support peaopi.
[5433]which vco1ld he secretaries, translators, strictly adninistrativs
[5435]Poone (Area 202) 644-6000
[5437]z types. I dontt think there were more than probably 1? ar 15
[5439]€ in that croup, if there were that manv. *
[5441]ues M2, MAMPREDI: Off the record.
[5443]a | (O7f the record discussion) ;
[5444]s i
[5446]Gs BY CIR. MANFRET: Back on the record,
[5448]0. Before we move on to further discussion of the @aifers? 7
[5450]21 2 could vou brieflv describe for me what role the CIA nlavs in
[5452]stay overniqht or stav several davs, HFN would put them un anc
[5454]+5 ) vesettling Cuban enigres? ; , {
[5455]« if : |
[5456]a veh A CIA doesn't resettle Cuban emicres.
[5457]a 23 8 : : :
[5458]< oat 0. What Agency is charced with that responsibility? '
[5459]3 aaa
[5460]aa A Health, Sducation and Welfare.
[5461]~o i
[5462]ss : 0. Noes CIA mlav anv role in that process? :
[5463]at A We mav assist if we are asked bunk the idea of the ae
[5465]| airlift was having relatives here for somebodv to claim vou when
[5467]4 i you came in so von wouldn't become a ward of the State of the
[5468]3 ar
[5469]R _. | Government, and nornally when. these refuqees came in, they were
[5471]oC a ,
[5472]z .. | processed through the Center and then they had a place down on |
[5473]2 i.
[5474]g ee Biscavne Boulevard thev called Freedom House and this was, of
[5475]3 ne! . . |
[5477]: . |
[5478]. a course, all run by HEW, and they ~~ if need he and thev had to
[5479]oe |
[5480]a
[5481]2
[5482]Tv
[5484]OR
[5485]we
[5487]i
[5488]i
[5489]. 4
[5490]care for them in Freedom Ilouse. 4
[5491]|
[5493]| :
[5495]HW 50955 Docld:32203851 Page 66 OF ome sm ee om emt
[5497]7 SzERST -
[5498]wo) San Se GK o&
[5500]Then as soon «a thev could, of course, thev would move thon
[5502]a to the areas where they wanted to resettle them, where the
[5504]we
[5506]- | relatives were, this cvne of thing, and we had nothing to do
[5508]Prone (Area 202) 944-6000
[5510]with that whatsoever.
[5512]RO 0. Turning bac!: to the larcer of the
[5514]two grouns, what was tne name of that qdrono aqain? -
[5518]2 0 We can call them @e@NSiay for shor?
[5520]a A Really, thev are hoth -- the only reason we separated
[5521]ic 2 the two groups was for security because we had one group housed |
[5522]+, ; Over here and the smailer groun was over here. Obviously we
[5523]daw!
[5524]te i couldn't bring these refugees into the larger establishment, so,
[5525]3 “eh
[5526]: * . . ss ca
[5527]é Lz | that is why we took che smaller establishnant Gyo oie
[5528]g w
[5529]Q
[5530]ra
[5531]< 74 .
[5533]H . t
[5534]we {| 0 Okay. What activities was the larqer groun engaqed :
[5535]15 3 ;
[5537]_.. in?
[5538]F
[5539]. A. WRIL, the larger srevin was enqrided in tre collectio:.
[5540]-_ i
[5541]a i of intelligence. They comniled dossiers on the principals
[5543], inside Cuha. Thev carded -- thev kept card files on every
[5544]bag ak * i
[5545]S _. | refugee that came throudh the reception center. Thev vrovided ---
[5547]ia) a : . . . : . i
[5548]: 2 they did da economic and social renorting. They put out a
[5549]6 Dr k .
[5550]8 2h 4
[5552]& " monthly newsletter based on the information they collected. i
[5553]2 ae 8 . i
[5554]oa in . . .
[5555]i ‘ The information these peonle collected as onposed to the \
[5557]> we H 4
[5558]S if
[5559]e ; . . . 1
[5560]Gh _ i information we collected, ther's was all unclassified. That ,
[5562]8 | came from -- all the information thev had came from human source
[5563]7 295 | ;
[5565]|
[5567]HW 50955 Docld: 32203451 Page 67
[5569]qe cam 2S wt, wD aR ‘
[5571]Phone {Ares 202) 944-6000
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[5623]7 Pane)
[5625]HY 50955 Docld: 32203
[5627]» Subserihbed to a nuclher, a qraat many newsnaners, periodicals
[5629]rf
[5632]1
[5634]|
[5635]|
[5637]i
[5638]y
[5639]t
[5641]1
[5642]i
[5643]t
[5644]i
[5645]i
[5647]|
[5648]i
[5651]er overt publications. We subscribed -- well, the pronri
[5653]Spanish language type things.
[5655]0. Well, tage, were coing clandestine collections as wel
[5658]A. I don't know if vou could call it clangestine.
[5659]3
[5661]did you have in mind?
[5663]0. Well, would thev run aqents. in the community?
[5665]A Well, ves, there were penetrations of the Cuban
[5667]community, yes. .-
[5669]0 And that is clandestine collection, isn't it?
[5671]A. WELL, I call that human resources.
[5673]0. All right. Where are these. files now?
[5675]A, They are in the Headquarters here. A great mary
[5677]wrath
[5679]them were really destroyed. It got to be rather comic. We
[5681]went down there several vears ago just looking through the fii
[5683]to see what kind of shape thev were in and thev had such
[5689]information for intellinqence value in there as a picture o: a
[5691]gal who might be the daudhter of a Cuban refuqee who just won
[5693]files and took out that material, von know, which just ‘lidn'!
[5695]have any pertinancy at all.
[5697]0. How are the files orqanized? You indicated hefore
[5699]there is a card, index card for each Cuban refugee?
[5701]A ©) ORight.
[5703]Q. Are there soft cover files as well?
[5705]51 Page 66 Cr ery ke
[5707].
[5710]t
[5712]i
[5714]y a Swimming meet. [rh got rather ridiculous. So we puras! those
[5716]that
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[5818]3 as
[5821]HW 50955 Docld:32203851 Page 69
[5823]A Yes.
[5824]0 For eacn
[5825]A NO. Hoc
[5827]recall, those cara
[5829]we had I quess the
[5831]cor ane
[5832]Sekt 66
[5834]Cuban refuqesa?
[5835]for eacn Cuvan refucee. f£ think, as [
[5837]Tiles were up in the millige-ns and I forqec,
[5839]manilla Zilies, probabiv went into che tens
[5841]of thousands, I would think.
[5845]0. How, is there anv way to determine from those files
[5847]which of those exii
[5849]es have hecome United States citizens?
[5851]A No way...
[5852]O° Has there been anv effort to make such a determina-
[5855]A We made an effort at one time but this -- VOU Can
[5857]become nationalized out in California and vour reeerd of
[5859]“nationalization wouldn't be reflected here in Washinston sr
[5861]two years. That is how far thev are behind.
[5863]0. So I take it --
[5865]A So there
[5867]there is a central
[5869]is no ce.trcal index vou can qo to. Toth,
[5871]index vou can go to but it is not curren:
[5873]0 I take it, then, that there is a rossibilityv tharos:
[5875]CIA has some files
[5877]in Miari or here in Lanaqlev on Cupans wis
[5879]are now American citizens?
[5881]A Absolutely true.
[5882]0. Now, are anv of those Files likely to contain
[5884]derogatory information about the individuals involved?
[5886]A Well, no.
[5888]One of the things these neonle da, of
[5890]Poone (Area 202) 544-6000
[5892]we
[5894]WAKO & PAUL
[5895]we
[5896]t
[5898]20003
[5900]Zl
[5902]BLO Facet Stecet, S.E., Washington, O.C.
[5904]t
[5905]. i;
[5906]i
[5907]HY 450955 Docld: 32203851 Page TO
[5909]5
[5911]Y
[5913]et ghokor
[5914]10 sO Rat 67
[5916]course, ve had tavcets for recruitment. It could range fran
[5918]anythin: from a fics’ mate, a captain or chief endineer of a
[5920]Cuban maritime vessel to Fidel. When we targeted these people
[5921]as possible recruitments, for possible recrnitment,we would ask
[5923]that al! the information on that individual be assembled so that
[5924]we coulc do a complete target study -- habits, you know,
[5926]\ .
[5928]everything right doim the line. In case of some of the more.
[5929]important ones, of course, we had nsvchological studies prepared
[5930]where we had enough information. Rut this is one of the things .
[5931]these pecple did. If we said we want everything vou have on the
[5932]first mate of the -- one of the Cuban ships, then they woul
[5934]start looking through the papers or anything else to come un
[5936]with anvthing thev could on what the guy's current activities
[5938]are, his background, his life habits, this tvpe of thing.
[5940]a Well, the
[5942]ANOMS) were going to be the intellicence
[5943]service of Cuba?
[5944]A. Right.
[5946]0. And thev obviously were going to perform sone funcnion
[5948]“in addition. to recruitment of aqents?
[5950]A. Right.
[5952]0. I take it thev were trained in counterintelligence,
[5953]gathering of positive intelligence, recruitment and all of tha
[5954]traditional skills, is that correct?
[5956]AL That is about ridht.
[5958]0. So I trust that they had files that were amassed for
[5960]st SECRET ce |
[5962]: 1 i ourposes other than recruitment?
[5963]: 2 A, Well -~
[5964]i 3 0. For example, let me ask you this. Were any of these |
[5965]E 4 files on Cubans who were suspected or thought to be a possible |
[5966]5 || internal security problem? |
[5967]6 | A. No. No. They didn't keep those types of files. We |
[5968]A
[5969]‘ 7 would simply task them with through your sources what do you |
[5970]8 have on so and so. They would not be told the reason why we .
[5971]9 | wanted the information on anybody. |
[5972]@ | 10 a Well, I guess with several million fiels or several
[5973]ll million cards and tens of thousands of files it is difficult to
[5974]; 12 make generalizations about the kind of information that is in
[5975]- i 13 those files?
[5976]: 14 A Well, that is right.
[5977]15 0 So I guess I won't ask you to do so, but I want to ash
[5978]16 you this. I trust thet there is the possibility that some of |
[5979]o these files do contain what you in the trade refer to as “en
[5980]1a] tory information? |
[5981]; 19 A I would assume so. . i
[5982]g 20 Q And that so much of them may -~ some of the subjects
[5983]\ v . .
[5984]2 21 of those files mav now be American citizens? |
[5985]. @ : 22 A Right. |
[5986]“ 23 And finally I take it that no effort has been made to |
[5987]f 4 | wy study that ‘particular situation? .
[5989]2
[5990]HW 50955: Dogld:322038
[5992]1 Page T1
[5994]ee - an . oe 2 sa
[5996](a2 SECRET | 60
[5998]. |
[5999]|
[6000]8 1 You know, we have a traveler program where when Cubans travel, |
[6002]rc Hf , t
[6003]g 2 | whether they are on an island or perhaps other places, their !
[6004]% |
[6005]g 3 names turn up on manifests and this type of thing. Well, these
[6006]5 .
[6007]z ral | are put into a machine system. What we did when these cards
[6008]li |
[6009]5 | were all transferred hack here in Miami, we did go through them
[6010]h : .
[6011]6 | at random and pick out cards and then try to match it up with
[6012]t
[6013]a if
[6014]7 what the machine svstem had to see if there was updated informa-
[6015]8 | tion in the machine System that would show that this quy had
[6016]9 become a naturalized citizen, and it didn*t work out. So -- ;
[6017]@ 10 0. Excuse me, off the record.
[6018]|
[6019]i
[6020]11 (Off the record discussion) i
[6021]|
[6022]12 MR. MANFREDI: | Back on the record.
[6023]a
[6024]3
[6025]z BY MR, MANFREDI:
[6026]8 13 |
[6027]a ‘
[6028]z 14 | 0. I want to straighten out confusion in my own mind
[6029]2 : .
[6030]15 where these files presently reside. The cards I take it are |
[6031]16 | presently here in Washington? |
[6032]q
[6034]7 A The cards and what is left of the files,
[6035]. 1
[6036]1a 0. That is the soft cover files? |
[6037]. ; |
[6038]! A. Yes.
[6039]Loa 19 | |
[6040]oo
[6041]8 0 And --
[6043]G
[6044]; Z 21 A. I assume they are either here or down at the -
[6046]o
[6048]@ é Records Center,
[6049]z 22
[6050]a | 0. And where is the computer system?
[6051]Ff
[6052]er: 24 A. You mean our machine system? We have --
[6053]HW 50955 Hocld:32209851 Page 72 —..
[6055]HW 50955
[6057]Pnone (Area 202) 444-G000
[6059]WARD & PAUL
[6061]\ Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003
[6065]13
[6067]1
[6068]2! A
[6069]5 ij 0
[6070]|
[6071]a | A
[6072]5 Q
[6073]t
[6074]6 | A
[6075]] | uses this
[6076]H
[6077]8 | Q
[6078]an
[6081]12 i
[6082]13 ! 0
[6083]14 x
[6084]15 they were
[6085]ig || 3° find a
[6086]1? a
[6087]18
[6088]A
[6089]19
[6090]20 | ®
[6091]A
[6092]21
[6093]22 e
[6094]23
[6096]A.
[6097]Fysalbi Page 73
[6099]Did th
[6101]SECRET 70
[6103]information on the cards?
[6105]Right down on the third floor.
[6106]That is not tte hvdro system?
[6107]Oh, no, no,
[6109]This is a separate --
[6111]This is a complete -- only the Latin American Division
[6113]particular system.
[6114]What kind of records -- strike that,
[6116]are still in existence, aren't thev?
[6118]No.
[6120]T thought they were going out in June.
[6122]Well, okav., Thev are on the hooks until June.
[6124]I see.
[6126]But they have all been let qo. They were let go --
[6127]all given six months termination honuses and told to
[6128]job.
[6130]No they have anv facilities, physical facilities, in
[6132]i Miami at this time?
[6134]no.
[6135]So there are no records in Miami?
[6137]No. No. We broncht all those records back here.
[6139]have law enforcement responsibilities
[6141]in the Miami community?
[6143]i
[6145]No. No.
[6152]i
[6156]8 7 : A Hot to mv knowledqe.
[6157]5 2 0. What else did thev do, this larger qroup o (mons:
[6158]a |
[6159]é 3 | was not doing debriefings?
[6160]e E ‘ ' A. Well, when they were trained in trade craft we would |
[6161]5 send them to other countries, in Europe and within the toni sphere
[6162]6 to train some of the local services in those countries. Thev
[6163]7 ( served as safe housekeepers in other countries. They served in
[6164]: : 8 listening posts where we had audio --
[6165]; 3 , oo Foreign listening posts?
[6167]. 10 | A. Oh, ves, foreign.
[6168]nl 0. Any domestic listening posts?
[6169]; 12 | A )0)0CUNO, h6ono. |
[6170]3 . |
[6171]‘ 13 0 Anv domestic surveillances conducted by these nennle? |
[6172]: 14 | A. I would assume -- this I cannot answer hecause I real.
[6173]1s | don't know. I know that they did a great number of thins tut
[6174]16 to my knowledge there wasn't anv domestic surveillance
[6175]17 conducted by them.
[6176]. 18 | ‘ Now, if it was conducted, and if it is a matter of recor’,
[6177]. 19 I don't know where it could he.
[6178]; 8 20 . re What intelligence gathering activities did thev
[6179]: J
[6180]: @ : 21 conduct in the Cuban community in Miami?
[6181]. : 29 A. One of the big problems we had was within that Cuhan
[6182]2
[6183]“ 23 community, as I said earlier, were some of the militant anti-
[6184]; 3
[6186]: = i j st Guard
[6187]HW 50955. pobla: 322830410 ae? 7YTOUPS and this just drove the FBI and the Coast Gua
[6189]|
[6195]| ° SECRET 72
[6197]i
[6199]t 3 24
[6200]HW 50955 Degcld: 32203851 Page 75
[6202]2 * | agencies in Miami plus the State government enforcement agencies
[6203]> 2 | WP the wall ana, of course, I guess it was around -~ the !
[6204]2 ° | .
[6205]3 5 | covernnent allowed a lot of this to go on for awhile but I guess
[6206]S . t
[6207]= t
[6208]2 a | about 1965 or 1964 they got a little tired of it and they
[6209]i ;
[6210]i ; 4
[6211]5 started to tighten up.:
[6212]1 XN t
[6213]6 | I am sure the@AWG@S) were in part responsible for proposing |
[6214]' |
[6215]’ 9 alerting us and in turn we alerted the enforcement agencies when,
[6216]8 | there was going to he a raid against Cuba by one of these
[6217]9 | militant groups. A number of times raids were aborted, picked |
[6218]© 16 up by the Coast Guard or Florida Coastal Patrol or the Bureau,
[6219]this type of thing. {
[6220]11
[6221]0 These people were arrested?
[6222]2 12
[6223]« A Oh, ves.
[6224]4 13 !
[6225]Qa i
[6226]c a Prosecuted? i
[6227]3 14 | ;
[6228]_. A Not really.
[6229]15
[6230]4
[6231]1s 0 Anv of them American citizens? i
[6232]oO
[6233]A Not to mv knowledge.
[6234]17
[6235]0 This would be Alpha 66 tvpe qrouns? :
[6236]18 i
[6237]A I don't know whether this quy -- well, you know, they :
[6238]n 19 *
[6240]3 are still after this Masferrer and this guy Donestevez. I don't
[6241]d 20 ; {
[6242]c know if they ever did get him in jail but they had him up on
[6243]3 21 ie .
[6244]a : . . .
[6245]Fa so many charges and he was a Cuban exile that made it biq here. |
[6246]Fy 22
[6247]He was a boat manufacturer, small boats, but whether he ever |
[6249]F -gerved any time or not I don't know... I know he was convicted
[6251]|
[6253]> ee ° . ~ ne we
[6255]re Ss
[6261]g I truthfully don't know whether any of these people ever went
[6262]2 2 | to jaul or not.
[6264]é i .
[6266]g 5 0 Other than identifying operations by militant anti-
[6267]2
[6269]4 « Castro groups, wnat other intelligence gathering did the (fonsy |
[6271]5 « engage in? ,
[6272]i:
[6273]6 I A, Well, of course, there was a counterintelligence --
[6274]fi . . :
[6275]’ 7 i I wouldn't call it a project but a counterintelligence interest :
[6276]( t
[6277]8 at that time because we knew that they were infiltrating agents.’
[6278]S | 0 Cubans were?
[6279]@ 1c | A The Cuban Government, They couldn't do it very well
[6280]“|
[6281]7 | on the airlift because, as I said before, the aged, infirm, and
[6283]2 | young, but they did infiltrate them by small boat.. And I don't
[6284]4 2
[6285]oe)
[6286]a 12 || -- well, we had knowledge that this was on and we did try to
[6287]8 a | -
[6288]o H
[6289]& rv I identify those people whom we thought would he suspect.
[6290]~ 5 i a Was that done in cooperation with the Bureau?
[6291], j A, With the Bureau, ves.
[6292]14 |
[6293]* a Because of their manpower limitations you folks were
[6294]q t
[6296]0 \ in a better position to do it?
[6297]18 |j
[6298]A Yes, and lanquage-wise, too, That is always a big
[6299]a 19 |!
[6300]° 1
[6301]3 | factor.
[6302]G 20 ;
[6303]o 0. And this was conducted through the(MW@rsas
[6304]8 aL
[6305]@ z A Yes.
[6306]3 Ze
[6307]uw | Qa How substantial was the counterintelligence operation
[6308]- 23} .
[6309]5 \ in the community?
[6310]1
[6312]HW 50955 pobta: 3290498 Page 76
[6315]7 ‘ 7 me gti c 74 ;
[6316]i, 16 SECRET :
[6318]& x would call a great number of suspect infiltrees, but thev lid
[6319]= 2 | come up with a few promising ones and ones it turned over to tho
[6320]i) te
[6321]i ‘|
[6322]é | i
[6323]g & Bureau, of course, we have no idea what the hell ever hanopens
[6324]2 ' .
[6326]& 2 | to it because, von iknow, vou just ~= unless vou personally know
[6327]a A || 3 ; y |
[6328]ij : “|
[6329]; 5 i the guy in the Bureau that is handling the case, you miqht as
[6331]1 ,
[6332]4 i well forget it. You have qot too many other things to do,
[6333]6 9
[6334]‘ 7 ii 0. What other positive intelligence gathering activities
[6335]\j |
[6336]1 \
[6337]. 8 | were they engaging in?
[6338]: |
[6339]9 A Well, as IT told-vou, one part of them were engaged in!
[6340]| |
[6341]® | |
[6342]19 5
[6343]| 0. Where was that done?
[6344]|
[6345]12 A. Down in Florda, @@somermnmomestccaces
[6346]a
[6347]] . .
[6348]é 13 0 This is Southeast offffemecmeadcs
[6349]z 8 is: :
[6350]2 | .
[6351]g 14 A Yes.. |
[6352]t
[6353]15 | 0. What ere thev @Rineceerisiins
[6354]i) i
[6355]16 A Well, originally they were set up to assist with the |
[6356]|
[6357]_ | commo. for the infiltration.
[6358]af i
[6359]le As we phased down the maritime activities, thev were nadc |
[6360]oO fi t
[6361]no 19 |
[6362]co]
[6363]o
[6364]8
[6365]G 20
[6366]c
[6367]3 21 |
[6369]= '
[6370]g 22 important one was the sugar network. We had the border guards, |
[6371]3 -
[6372]4 23 sugar, transportation, maritime. I think there was an interior
[6373]6 i
[6374]rf | sy TSSUPORIS NteESope cee!
[6375]HW 50955 DodId:322648 ha,
[6377]it
[6379]yo SECRET ane
[6381]3 : 4 + ; .
[6382]8 1 Now, Since thev pnelong to us we could levy ceratin require |
[6383]= 2 ments on them if we wanted to, which we did vary infrequently |
[6384]i=)
[6385]CE -
[6386]g 5 because the common interests, -~ we have a common interest in '
[6387]2 { — |
[6388]2 a ti what@igmghas an interest in ane unless there were one particular
[6389]| _
[6390]. 5 || operation going that thev wanted to cover exactly what the Cuban
[6392]6 were doing, then we would task our people with that. :
[6393]i
[6394]’ 9 For instance, we knew a Cuban vessel was taking arms into |
[6395]|
[6396]. 8 Africa and our operators saw the thing leave Havana and then ‘
[6397], |
[6398]9 | there was absolute silence. So nobody knew where the thing WAS.
[6399]@ 10 But we knew arms were being loaded and we finally located the
[6401]li boat in an African port, I mean the @Rgenceus eee aa
[6402]12 || it came back on the air. And this is the type of thing. As
[6403]3 - i
[6405]z 13 a matter of fact, they were unloading arms in Algiers. And 200 |
[6407]: | |
[6408]& Cuban troops. -
[6409]3 14}
[6410]1s MR. MANFREDI: Off the record. -
[6411](Off the record discussion) :
[6412]16 . . . ‘
[6413]. 1 MR. MANFREDI: Let's qo back on the record.
[6414]eS .
[6415]BY MR. MANFREDI: .
[6416]138
[6417]q, Were thef
[6418]: a 19 1 }
[6419]8 exclusively foreig
[6420]S 20 |i
[6421]: a A ‘
[6422]ah 8 21
[6423]z \
[6424]g 0. PA) one terminus
[6425]: 3 22
[6426]: of which was the United States?-
[6427]< 25
[6428]: = A No.
[6429]HW 50955 Darld:32A6061 Page 78
[6432]: SECRET "6
[6433]>. A Right,
[6434]2 . :
[6435]3 0 On the Island?
[6436]& } A Right,
[6437]g Sy
[6438]2 0. Or between the Island and other locations?
[6440]i A, Yes. .
[6441]i 0. But not between the Island and the United States?
[6443]7 A No. Let's go off the record on that.
[6444]a a
[6445]74 : .
[6446]. H . .
[6447]i (Off the record discussion)
[6448]. 8 .
[6449]| BY MR, MANFREDI:
[6450]9 | .
[6451]0. To vour knowledge were theQ@AMGRS§ engaqing in the
[6452]1¢ Ho
[6453]a
[6454]2
[6455]z
[6456]g
[6457]a
[6459]3 14 |
[6460]i A No.
[6461]! 0. Is that their only Gingemeept) facility?
[6462]+? A. (Nods affirmative)
[6463]-! | 0 Do you know of your own personal knowledge -- s¢*rite
[6464]*© | that. No you have anv knowledge of any wiretaps, Surveillances,
[6465]i
[6466]1921
[6467]3 ““ | breakins or activities of thqt type other than what te have
[6468]i=]
[6469]N i)
[6470]bs 20 discussed <<
[6471]A 1
[6472]e a2 | A. No sir.
[6473]= ee | -- that were conducted by thefRM@Es>
[6474]‘ 23
[6475]z | A. No sir. I want to go off the record a minute.
[6476]ag
[6477]3 24 |}
[6479](age the record discussion)
[6481]x
[6483]HW 50955 Dobld: 32203061 Page
[6485]2 St cam 6 Tote £ 77 :
[6487]¢ 3 BY MR. MANFREDI:
[6489]4 net . i
[6490]Sx 4 rs : ny F ;
[6491]= 2: 0. I understand that a study of the history of the Ges)
[6492]3 _ has been prepared by one of vour members.
[6493]< oo} H
[6494]~ . it i
[6495]$ : A That is right.
[6496]z wo |
[6497]4 0. What is his name? .
[6498]Bo
[6499]6 | A. I think it is Joaquin -- I can't remember the last
[6500]il 4
[6501]’ ' name. The poor guy is dead now anyway. Well, I will just have
[6502]PoE i
[6503]i
[6504]. i to get that for you.
[6505]& |
[6506]Q What is the title of the study?
[6507]9
[6508]@ A. The title of the study -- it is part of the historicai
[6509]. 1G | .
[6510]series of the Miami Station and I think it is just entitled "The
[6511]La i : ‘
[6512]| greece . |
[6513](GREER organization.”
[6514]4 12 |
[6515]z Q. What is the historical series of the Miami Station? '
[6516]13
[6517]@ a
[6518]z A. What
[6519]3 14 |! ;
[6520]| we try to do as we go alona, from year to vear, is set aside
[6522]il what is considered to he some of the more siginificant things
[6523]16
[6524]the station might do or that might occur in the station personae.
[6526]i wise, this tvne of thing, and then these things are written.
[6527]13 |
[6528]il 0. I see.
[6529]a 19
[6530]8 | A. At intervening periods of time.
[6531]GRO a
[6532]a 0. When was this particular report prepared(enenAMomsy
[6534]© 5 | A I think it was preAared in 1967 or '68.
[6535]i 22 |
[6536]ul q| 8. It is a fairly lengthy document, isn't it?
[6537]: 23 || .
[6538]i 3 : AL Yes.
[6539]er: . |
[6540]: 7 24 i
[6541]HW 50955 DobId:32203851 Page 80  - . ee
[6543]pes
[6545]ty
[6547]Phone {Ares 202) 645-6000
[6549]WARD & PAUL
[6550]pe
[6553]tH
[6556]pe
[6559]w
[6560]Cp
[6562]st Street, $.£., Wasningion, O.C. 20003
[6564]24
[6566]t
[6567]4
[6569]i
[6571]1
[6572]this.
[6574]activities
[6576]78
[6578]It starts back in 1959 when we first started using
[6580]this gent..
[6582]Q
[6586]A.
[6588]Q
[6590]MR. MANFRENI: On the record.
[6592]First started using what?
[6593]First started using, I forget what his name was.
[6595]Iosee. Is it a chronological study of their activi-
[6597]Yes, -
[6598]And you have a copy of that in your custody?
[6599]Yes.
[6601]I would like to see that document. And we will try
[6603]and obtain it through Hank Knoche's office.
[6605]Okav,
[6607]Excuse me just for a minute.
[6609](OFF the record discussion)
[6613]BY MR. MANFREDI: I wonder if you would -- let me ask vou
[6615]There have been some allegations in the press that
[6617]|
[6618]|
[6619]|
[6620]|
[6621]|
[6622]|
[6623]|
[6624]|
[6628]prominent newsmen in he Miami area have in the past been agents
[6630]of the CIA.
[6632]Mr. Olsen just came into the office and I asked him to join
[6634]'
[6636]us because some of vour involvement in Cuban activities in the
[6638]Agency in the Miami area touch peripherally on some of the thing
[6640]had has been charged with investigating, so I am going to turn
[6642]HW 50955 Dbeld: 32203 51. -Page.Bb owes an neene be Be ee meee bee LR ae
[6644]|
[6645]|
[6647]|
[6648]|
[6650]: ape | |
[6651]i Sec .28T 79
[6652]t
[6653]° ; MR, OLSEN: Thank vou, George.
[6654]oO 1
[6656]é ; BY MR, OLSEN: ;
[6657]z D) 4 .
[6658]S “
[6659]| 0. “Can you begin, since I have not been in on the begin-
[6660]< 3 .
[6661]g | ning of the interview here, can vou start off, Mr. Sturbitts,
[6662]a GoW . .
[6663]| by giving me ahout a one or two minute resume of what your :
[6664]5! -
[6665]o t N
[6666]' eontacts were with the Cuban elements in Florida and elsewhere
[6667]6 ;
[6668]‘ i withing this country on behalf of the Aqencv?
[6669]7 | :
[6670]A. Well, I was a member of the Special Activities Staff
[6671]8B |
[6672]which was in effect the Cuban task force at Headquarters and th:
[6673]; 9
[6674]@ oO Miami Station functioned under the Special Activities Staff in
[6675]vf | |
[6676]a variety of intelligence collection and operations.
[6677]11 : woe
[6678]Q Who was the head of the Special Activities Staff?
[6679]; 12 |
[6680]> A. Desmond Fitzgerald.
[6681]| ‘ 13 ae deena
[6682]ry , @ And who was his immediate superior?
[6683]ee |
[6684]A Dick Bissell. Excuse me. No. At that time it was
[6685]15
[6686]_|| Dick Helms. He was the DEP.
[6687]16
[6688]Qa Deputy Director for Plans?
[6689]17 .
[6690]| A. Deptuty Pirector for Plans.
[6691]c i
[6692]18 | 0 What period of time are we talking ahout now?
[6693]3 19 | A, We are talking in the period of 1963 to 1965.
[6694]5 20
[6695]G MR. MANFREDI: Off the record.
[6696]- gal .
[6697]@ e (Off the record discussion)
[6698]3 ae BY MR. OLSEN:
[6699]23
[6700]3 Qa So you were not involved in this Special Activities
[6703]HW 50955 pocta: 3220364 Bagear8Aueine the 1969 to '61 neriod?
[6705]st Street, S.E., Washington, O-C. 20003
[6707]HW 50955
[6709]Phone (Area 202} 041-6000
[6713](oa)
[6715]WARD & PAUL
[6716]bed
[6717]Pm ot
[6719]on
[6721]Fe
[6723]22
[6724]23
[6726]= 24
[6727]Bocld: 3220:
[6729]: SECRET Ro
[6731]i
[6732]i
[6734]0 Or the nreriod leading up to the Bav of Pigs?
[6736]A NO. |
[6737]i
[6738]i 0. And you were not involved in this program at all durins
[6740]4
[6741]i
[6744]the same time that FE. Noward Hunt was involved in it?
[6745]as
[6746]\ A. No. e!
[6747]i a Do vou know what the position was Mr. Hunt occupied in
[6748]. |
[6750]i connection with the Cuban operations of the Agency during the
[6752]period of 1959 to ‘61?
[6754]| A To my recollection, Howard Hunt was on the Covert
[6757]| Action Staff dealing in propaganda.
[6759]| 0. Was this propaganda directed to the Cuban people in
[6760]I ;
[6762]i this country?
[6764]|
[6765]A No, Cuban people abroad. i
[6766]|
[6769]Q And what was his connection with the planning for the |
[6771]Bay of Pigs?
[6773]| A, I would have to review the record to realiv answer
[6775]| that. I don’t know.
[6776]| Q Didn't he spend an awful lot of time in the ‘iami
[6777]" i
[6778]|| area? |
[6779]: A. He commuted quite a bit.
[6780]| Q Between Washington and <=
[6781]| A. Washington and Miami. |
[6782]| a -- and Miami. Muring the period of 1969 and early
[6783]I
[6785]| ‘612 |
[6787]B51 Pag a3 Right.
[6789]«BECP E a1
[6790]g “. 7 published materials that he was the person who was in charge of
[6791]: 2 organizing a political unit amony Cubans in this country which
[6792]A 3 would constitute the Cuban qovernment in exile. Do you recall
[6793]e HT
[6794]2 £ | where that was? \
[6795]5 A , That could be quite true.
[6796]6 0. Have you reviewed, Mr. Sturbitts, the Agency's entire
[6797]J
[6798]‘ 9 files relating in any wav to the Cuban operations and particu-
[6799]. 8 larly with reference to whether they reflect any contacts
[6800]t
[6801]|
[6802]9 between the Agency and [rank Sturgis?
[6803]@ | 10 | A. Yes.
[6804]Ll | Qa Or Frank Fiorini?
[6805], | A There is no relationship.
[6806]i
[6807]: ‘ 13 | a Is it vour testimony that the records and files of
[6808]: 14 the Agency reveal no official or unofficial contact of any
[6809]5 | nature with Frank Sturgis?
[6810]| A To my knowledge that is true.
[6811]17 | Qa I take it from that that you are emphatic in your
[6812]£13 testimony that he was never an employee of the Agency?
[6813]: 7 A. . Extremely emphatic.
[6814]8 90 | Qa And vou are also equally emphatic to the effect that
[6815]J
[6816]: 21 he was never a contract aqent of the Agency?
[6817]& i A. “Exactly.
[6819]4 23 | 0. Do you know whether he ever served in the capacitv
[6820]: 24 of being an informer or informant to the Agency?
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[6825]2s + . + a re woe
[6827]a Sone’
[6830]SECRET 2
[6832]3 1 | 0. YOu mean a source of --
[6834]: 2 i A, Source of information of another agent. Another
[6836]3 3 agency agent.
[6838]3 4 0. No the files of the Agency reflect anv matter?
[6839]5 A. To my knowledae I don't recall anything like chat but”
[6841]. ;
[6842]6 I it is entirely possible that that could have happened without
[6843]‘ ” being a matter of record.
[6845]. 8 | 0. Do the-files of the Agency reveal anv instance what-
[6847]9 | ever in which Frank Sturais as ever asked to undertake anv
[6848]@ , is | kind of an operation or activity on behalf of the Agency?
[6850]ll | A, To my knowledge, nothing.
[6852]; 12 | 0. Do the files of the Agencv reveal anv evidence
[6854]i 13 | whatever that Frank Sturgis was ever paid anything directly or
[6856]: 44 | indirectly by the Agency?
[6858]2 4 ji
[6859]7 i A To mv Knowledqe, no.
[6860]16 a Now, when vou sav "to my knowledge, no", in answer
[6861]7 to some of these cuestions, do I understand that to mean that
[6862]18 ; you are giving us the full benefit of your knowledge on the
[6863]19 basis of a full review of the Agency's records and files?
[6865]: : | A On Frank Sturgis, ves.
[6867]G 20 i:
[6869]& 21 | 0. Okay. During the period of time that you were with
[6871]g '
[6873]i 22 | the Special Activities Group from 1963 to '66, first of all,
[6875]z et
[6877]4 oy | om? you tell us when that began in 1963?
[6879]é | A When the Special Activities Group. -~-
[6881]; : 24 |
[6882]HY 50955 pocid: 32203851 Page 65
[6884]Pak Po a Wim tees me
[6886]Dac wee ee eo ee cere a
[6888]SECR
[6890]i]
[6891]| Park 83
[6893]8 2 " Group began?
[6894]3 i
[6895]s 2 i A It began -- well, it becan around June of '63,
[6896]& I
[6897]2 t .
[6898]z 3 0 Now, with particular reference to the last half of
[6899]e I
[6900]i }
[6901]& 4 $1963, including whatever neriod in June '63 mav not have been
[6902]i
[6903]5 ' involved, were there a qreat manv Cubans in the southern United
[6904]i :
[6905]i
[6906]6 |, States who were active in revolutionary fronts that were beina
[6907]| .
[6908]‘ 7 , SPonsored by the Agency?
[6909]if
[6910]; 8 i A Wellm vou mean Aqencv sponsored fronts?
[6911]9 | Q Yes. .
[6912]| ce] 16 | OA The Agency subsidized these fronts in an effort to
[6913]11 || have unity rather than these split factions, split anti-Castr>
[6914]jo || factions. Obviously the leaders of the fronts knew that the
[6915]a
[6916]2
[6917]< sas: . ok
[6918]CIA was subsidizing. Supposedly the people that joined these
[6919]a 13 Js
[6920]Q
[6921]é 14 || fronts did not know they were being subsidized by the Aqenc
[6922]i +
[6923].s [or the U.S. Government.
[6924]16 a But when vou sav “supposedly,” does the fact annear
[6925]19 | to be otherwise?
[6926]vel A. WE11, based on mv experience with the Cubans ane this
[6928]2g | be of thing, and their penchant to talk, I would think that
[6929]Q
[6930]i=]
[6931]a 29 | it wouldA’t take long for knowledge of any subsidy to surface
[6932]S ;
[6933]a oo
[6934]¢ itself.
[6935]2 21
[6936]cos . &
[6937]® g 20 | 0. Was it your oninion and impression at that time, “tr.
[6939]3 33 | Sturbitts, that a qreat many Cubans considered themselves to be
[6940]8
[6941]& 24 involved in the CIA orqanizations?
[6943]HW 50955 Dogcld:32903851 Page 86 ..
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[6948]$ X
[6949]3
[6950]C2)
[6952]a 2
[6953]co]
[6954]ed
[6955]3
[6957]é 3
[6958]2
[6959]E
[6961]é 4
[6963]5
[6965]6
[6967]' ?
[6969]; 8
[6971]9
[6973]Ke
[6975]11
[6977]; 12
[6978]2
[6980]5
[6982]é 13
[6983]a
[6986]3 14
[6988]16
[6990]a
[6992]16
[6994]- 19
[6995]i=)
[6997]S
[6999]5 20
[7000]a
[7002]8 21
[7003]an
[7004]i
[7005]e :
[7007]3 22
[7010]“ 23
[7011]3
[7012]Fr
[7014]3 24
[7016]HW 50955 Decld: 32203
[7018]SECRET 04
[7020]0 And again with particular reference to the Miami
[7021]area?
[7023]A, Yes,
[7025]0. Was there also Cuban activity of this sort elsewhere
[7027]in the United States? I am asking now particularly with
[7028]reference to New Orleans.
[7030]A. There was some Cuban presence in New Orleans. I am
[7031]really not familiar with wnat hanpened in New Orleans that was
[7032]sort of a sideshow to Miami.
[7034]Q But the same is ~~ it is possible that some of the
[7036]same Cuban organizations which were being sponsored or funded
[7038]preteen senna oe ay eae tee mr ta Ra cng ee
[7040]by the Agency also had activities or operations in New Orleans? '
[7042]A. I don't know if I can answer that, whether they had
[7043]the same functions. I know that some funding arrangement for
[7044]subsidizing the organizations in Miami was carried out through
[7046]New Orleans.
[7048]0 Well, can you he more specific about what you mean
[7049]by that?
[7050]A Well, in other words, to fund these organizations we
[7052]were subsidizing there had to he some ostensible source of
[7053]income for them to continue what they were doing. A great
[7054]number ~- well, not a gqreat number, but a number of select
[7055]people were -- well, they were selected and then thev were
[7057]talked to, to pose as trustees, if you would, or directors or
[7061]7 Bm PIS as
[7062]I rere 85
[7063]o .
[7064]6 >" to get the funding through to the organizations.
[7065]= 2 : These people ware normally prominent people and -- |
[7066]GS i: : '
[7067]4 2 . ;
[7068]5 " fn, And did thev qet funded by the Agency, then, through |
[7069]z 5 ;
[7071]2 , . the mdeium of prominent and well-to-do neople? i
[7072]um ,
[7073]5 ‘| A, These well-to-do people ostensibly would call a friend,
[7074]i .
[7075]6 \ of theirs that had heen made trustee of another type of activity’
[7076]J . :
[7077]’ 9 : and sav, vou know, we are trying to assist these Cubans in this |
[7078]'
[7079]HI i
[7080]8 ; type of thing. Could vour organization give us any money, and !
[7081]. i! j
[7082]i
[7083]9 i the guy on the other end would say, sure, we can probably lend |
[7084]44 i
[7085]@ Ls | you $25,990 or something like that, or donate $25,90N, This is
[7086]r the way the funding went into the fronts,
[7087]i}
[7088]J i
[7089]ae 0. And was some of that funding arranged through veonle |
[7090]4 12 |
[7092]in New Orleans? :
[7093]‘ 13 | | |
[7094]a
[7095]x 14! A. I would think so, I believe’ cn.
[7096]2 ae | : .
[7097]i
[7098]24 0. Were anv of the people in New Orleans throudh whom
[7099]Loh
[7100]ve i that funding operation was effected people who turned out to be :
[7101]2D . 7 ‘
[7102]xy | involved in the investigations conducted by Jim Garrison? :
[7103]“|
[7104]+A i A, Not to my knowledge.
[7105]10 4 !
[7106]j 0. How about Navid Ferrie? Was he ever connected with
[7107]19 |
[7108]” yo i
[7110]8 || the Agency in anv manner at all in providing funds or assistance _
[7111]. 20 . i
[7112]y .
[7113]° to Cubans or Cuban groups?
[7114]. 8 214
[7115]oo oa . '
[7116]@ Z | A I couldn't sav. I am just not familiar with -- we had
[7117]. 2 22
[7118]: |
[7119]4 ij a great manv people that did this.
[7120]z 23
[7121]5 0 How about Clay Shaw? Was Clay Shaw ever used as a
[7122]3 24
[7124]HW 50955 DoéId:32203351. Page 36
[7126]4
[7128]|
[7132]2 . :
[7133]8 1 A, This I do not know either.
[7134]3 3 0. Pardon?
[7135]& i
[7136]3 i .
[7137]2 él AL This I don't know.
[7139]2 , i BY MR. MANFRAOT:
[7140]i
[7141]5 Q Where would that information be available? =
[7142]6 | A Well, we have a cuv that used to work with me who was
[7143]‘ ” | down in New Orleans at that time. He would probably know.
[7144]i . . i
[7145]5 0 Is he in the building?
[7146]i
[7147]9 | A. Yes.
[7148]i
[7149]1 | 0. What is his name?
[7150]a :
[7151]. il ia
[7152]j
[7153]16 Q. |
[7154]3 : |
[7155]a
[7156]a A. '
[7157]a LS
[7158]Q i :
[7159]: Y MR. USE: . ,
[7160]< 14: B AR OLS iy
[7161]25 | Q. Who is MeAMIReae with now? Which department?
[7162]16 A He is still with the DDO.
[7163]|
[7164]7 BY MR. MANFREDT:
[7165]1? | :
[7166]134 Q Western Hemisphere Nivision?
[7167]18 |;
[7168]19 A No. He is on one of the staffs. We is on the -- T
[7169]mn 1
[7170]o i
[7171]8 50 | think Career Management Group Staff.
[7172]d
[7173]a :
[7174]é 0. Is he officed near you?
[7175]g 211
[7176]i) 1
[7177]¢ .
[7178]& A No. He is down in the basement.
[7179]3 22:
[7180]5 BY MR. OLSEN:
[7181]& 24 Q Do the Agency files reveal who the intermediaries were
[7182]HW 50955 poeta: 32203844 Page 69 ae  -S  O e S
[7184]HY 50955 D
[7186]o
[7187]2 ;
[7189]= Nh
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[7192]z i
[7194]na aan
[7195]¢ i
[7196]g |
[7197]a Qoot
[7198]5 |
[7199]i
[7201]u
[7202]F
[7204]og i
[7205]G
[7206]10 |
[7208]Ll ff
[7209]4 ie
[7210]3
[7211]x
[7212]a 13 |
[7213]0
[7215]3 14 |
[7216]4
[7217]ar 4
[7218]1S 4
[7219]14 |
[7220]~ |
[7221]ara
[7222]t
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[7226]n 19
[7227]o
[7228]o
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[7230]r 2c
[7231]G
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[7235]5
[7236]BB
[7238]al =
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[7240]re
[7241]g
[7242]a
[7243]3 24
[7245]SECRET a7
[7247]A, Oh, ves.
[7249]|
[7250]0. w“- to the Cuban novements? |
[7251]A Yes. ;
[7252]0 Do you know whenhter -- do you know the identity of anté
[7254]of them in New Orleans? i.
[7256]N
[7258]A. No. No. Totallv unfamiliar with anything that took
[7260]; |
[7261]0 I take -it that Frank Sturgis was never an intermediar-
[7264]place in New Orleans.
[7265]for providing funds to the Cuban fronts?
[7266]A The files that I have don't reflect it.
[7267]0% I think we covered this already just a few minutes aga
[7268]but let me make sure that we have got it on the record. |
[7270]I understood vou to say that it was your impression in 1963
[7271]that large numbers of Cuban exiles, Cuban people in the southern
[7272]United States, talked about and believed that they were involve.
[7273]in the CIA sponsored activities. Is that true?
[7275]A That is right. -
[7277]ie Was it also vour understanding and your impression
[7278]that there was a good deal of talk among this Cuban element in
[7279]the southern United States about plans or prospects for the
[7280]assassination of Fidel Castro? ‘
[7282]A. I would say no. I don't think there was -- you have
[7284]got to remember that these people were embittered. Thev lost
[7286]their homeland, their vossessions, thev lost everything and the-
[7288]old: 3220381. +Pages 98.0 2.50 220 1...
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[7302]13
[7304]WARD & PAUL
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[7308]16
[7309]17
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[7311]19
[7312]- 20
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[7324]25
[7326]BoclId: 32203651 Page 91
[7328]-anything they could to get rid of him,
[7330]SECRET | ae
[7332]ce That is Fiedl Castro?
[7334]A That is right, and they would probably verbally do
[7336]Q Was there a lot of talk about killing Castro among
[7338]these Cubans?
[7340]A I would say among the Cuban exiles there probably was.
[7341]a lot of talk about that.
[7342]0. Did you participate vourself in the overhearing of
[7344]such conversations? ‘
[7346]A No,
[7348]0 Was this a-matter of something that was reported to
[7349]you?
[7351]A Well, it was -- I really don't remember what the |
[7353]source of it was but I know in my discussions with people at the
[7354]Station and from my visits down there and that type of thing |
[7355]that this subject always came up. What were they going to do
[7357]with Fidel? How are they going to get rid of him and this type
[7358]of thing. I don't mean the Agency people. This is what the -
[7360]Cuban exile community was discussing.
[7362]Q Yes. Do you.know what Howard Hunt was doing for the -
[7364]“Agency in 1963?
[7366]A. Well, it seems to me he was here at Headquarters in
[7367]'63 and I think he was assigned to the European Division of te
[7368]DDP.
[7370]0 This is your best recollection --
[7372]| SECRET
[7374]3
[7375]8 1
[7376]( 2 2
[7377]z 3
[7378]é 4
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[7380]6
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[7408]SECRET 89
[7410]A. Yes.
[7412]Q ~- at the moment. Is it possible that he was with
[7414]Domestic Operations Division in the field of edn
[7416]| engaged --
[7417]A I guess you are right, yes. I believe he was there.
[7418]ce Did you personally know Howard Hunt?
[7420]| A No.
[7421]0 Never met him?
[7422]A Iomet him. That is all. TI can't say I know him.
[7423]Q You would not have known anything about his where-
[7425]abouts on any particular day, then. Is that true?
[7426]A. Can we go off the record?
[7427](Off the record discussion.)
[7428]THE WITNESS: Let's go back on the record.
[7430]BY MR. OLSEN:
[7432]0 I would like to have it on the record.
[7433]A “Do you have a particular day?
[7434]2 No, I am just asking you if your acquanitance with
[7436]Hunt was such that you would have known of his whereabouts on
[7438]any particular dav.
[7440]A. No.
[7441]0 Was it very infrequently that you ever saw him?
[7442]A ‘Oh, I would see him in the halls, this type of thing,
[7444]but -- bump into him perhaps downtown on the street.
[7446]Q But vou would have no occasion for knowing from one
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[7450]‘SECRET 20
[7452]g 1 | aay to the next where he was?
[7453]es re |
[7454]“ ' :
[7455]i 3 | 0. Have you ever conducted any kind of inquiry on behalf !
[7456]E a of the Agency as to where he was on November 22, 1963? |
[7457]5 A, ‘Yes. |
[7458]6 | te And when did you conduct, that inquiry? |
[7459]| . :
[7460]\ 7 A I have done it twice that I recall and the most recent
[7461]; 8 | one was I guess ~- I am just trying to think. Well, it wasn't
[7462]9 too long ago because we did have an inquiry and we obtained the |
[7463]10 | time and the attendance records from the Office of Finance which
[7464]ll | showed that Howard Hunt was on sick leave on that day.
[7465]; he Q Was this just fairly recently? |
[7466]{ i 13 | A Yes. :
[7467]: 14 0 I understood from what files I have seen, Mr. |
[7468]15 Sturbitts, that the onlv records that were available from the
[7469]16 Office of Finance showed that he had had nine hours of sick leave
[7470]WW during the two-week pay period ending the 23rd of November but |
[7471]ia | that the records were not available as to how much sick leave
[7472]19 | or annual leave had been taken on any particular day.
[7473]3 A) Well -- |
[7474]5 20)
[7475]F 21 0. Am I mistaken?
[7476]i 29 ; A As I recall, he was in a duty status one day and a
[7477]. 3 .
[7478]@ 23 | sick leave status the next day and back to duty the next day.
[7479]( : 24 I would have to check that with my Budget and Fiscal Officer.
[7480]: 25 He is the chap that got that for me..
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[7529]A.
[7531]| 0
[7535]A.
[7537]made?
[7539]| a
[7541]Q.
[7543]inquiry?
[7545]A
[7547]\, Page 94
[7549]SECRET
[7551]Can you check that for us?
[7553]Sure,
[7555]And give us the results of that?
[7557]Yes.
[7559]91
[7561]Because this is much more detailed information than
[7563]| I have been previouly aware is available in the files of the
[7565]All right. I will do that.
[7567]'
[7568]H A.
[7569]BY MR. MANFREDI:
[7571]Do you want to make a note of that?
[7573]Let me have a piece of paper,
[7575]YOu might also want Mr. Sturbitts'
[7577]is 351-5106.
[7579]That |
[7581]1963.
[7583]In response
[7585]THE WITNESS: That was 22 November, right?
[7587]BY MR. MANFREDI:
[7589]is the day.
[7591]I don't know. I would have to look that up,
[7593]don't recall exactly who asked for it.
[7595]No.
[7597]But Ican find out from the B and F guy,
[7601]|
[7602]And the date? Do vou have any idea when you made the
[7606]|
[7608]OR A we
[7610]to whose inquiry was that investigation
[7612]I don't know whether --
[7614]phone number which :
[7616]too, I
[7618]I will just have to check that. I don't know who it was.
[7620]hopefully
[7622]SECRET 92
[7624]3 1 ! Q You said there was a previous inquiry?
[7625]5 i
[7626]i : ee) j A Yes. The previous inquiry came from Archie Roosevelt |
[7627]g 5 who is now retired and was at that particular time the Chief of
[7628]: 4 European Division. !
[7629]5 Q When was that inquiry received? :
[7630]6 | A. That was about a vear ago, I guess.
[7631]9 BY MR. OLSEN: |
[7632]; 8 a About the first time these photographs began to be :
[7633]9 | circulated?
[7634]10 | AL Yes.
[7635]ll 0 About the bums in Dallas?
[7636], 12 H A Yes, and actually I think this -=- Archie's inquiry
[7637]{ i 13 came from some magazine or newspaper man in Europe. Archie was
[7638]: Om for a long time and he apparently
[7639]1s made a lot of acquaintances over there among the media. |
[7640]16 Qa- This is something you are relating to Der Sterm .
[7641]17 || Magazine? , |
[7642]1s As Phat. is right. |
[7643]. 19 | 0. And did I understand you to say thqt in checking with |
[7644]8 “50 “the Office of Finance that it was positively ascertained that |
[7645]S :
[7646]: 21 Hunt was on sick leave on November 22nd?
[7647]i 22 OR Well, I will have to check that. That is the way :
[7648]. |
[7649](@ 4 23 | I understood it but I did qet this through our Budget people whol
[7650]_ : : 24 | have the contact with the Office of Finance. |
[7651], 3 25 0 And that he was on annual leave the day before?
[7653]HY 50955 Docld: 32203851 Page 95 . FE PEE
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[7657]Phone (fred 202) 544-6000
[7659]10
[7661]11
[7663]12
[7665]13
[7667]rites
[7668]WARD & PAUL
[7670]14
[7672]15
[7674]16
[7676]1?
[7678]18
[7680]19
[7684]O.C. 26003
[7686]21
[7687]22
[7688]23
[7690]e
[7692]24
[7694]410 First Street, §.E., Washington,
[7696]25
[7698]SECRET ae
[7700]|
[7702]| A. No. He was on a duty status the day before, on sick |
[7705]; leave, and then on duty status the following day.
[7707]BY MR. MANFREDI: '
[7709]| 0. Was there any effort to determine what Mr. Hunt's
[7711]previous pattern with respect to sick days had veen?
[7713]A (Nods in negative) 4
[7715]BY MR. OLSEN:
[7717]0. November 22, 1963, was a Friday. When you sav that
[7718]records reveal that he was on a duty status the next day --
[7719]| 7” .
[7721]A It was a Friday. Then I was mistaken.
[7723]ie Does that mean he was on duty the following Monday
[7725]or on the next day, Saturday?
[7727]A. No. On the following Monday. I didn't realize the.
[7729]22nd was a Friday. . , i
[7731]x
[7733]Qa Will you check that thing for us and give us a hrief
[7735]; memo together with whatever supporting -- copies of supporting
[7737]documents you can find?
[7739]A: Okay.
[7741]Q As promptly as possible on this question.
[7743]I think that covers the subject matter.
[7745]MR. MANFREDI: I can give vou another moment if you want.
[7747]| Can you think of anything else?
[7749]MR. OLSEN: I think that is all.
[7750]MR. MANFREDI: Okay. Off the record.
[7752](Off the record discussion)
[7754]HW 50955 Docld: 322038 1 Page 36 i, cok ty He,
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[7758]|
[7759]t
[7761]l
[7762]|
[7763]c=) H : . :
[7764]8 13 BY MR, MANFREDI:
[7765]7 |
[7766]y il . : :
[7767]{ & 2 | Q. Iam sorry for the interruption but over the long hauli
[7768]a i : :
[7769]2 i :
[7770]: 3 I think probably I saved vou some time.
[7771]g i ‘ ;
[7772]é A, We are talking about newsvaper efitors when we were inter--
[7773]5 | rupted -- or when I invited the interruntion. JI guess I-ought
[7774]i . ;
[7775]‘ . i
[7776]6 : to be fair. i
[7777]J
[7778]7 Is it not a fact that the Aqencv had some relationship with
[7779]i
[7780]i ;
[7781]g i+ some prominent newspaper officials in the Miami area? :
[7782]: i
[7783]i :
[7784]‘ g A. Yes.
[7785]' . . }
[7786]. a Q . And what was the nature of that relationship?
[7787]| :
[7788]3 | |
[7789]z |
[7790]( :
[7791]oO | 4
[7792]< |
[7793]3 | |
[7794]| |
[7795]|
[7796]16 0. What was the purpose of those relationships?
[7797]17 i} A. I really couldn't say what the prupose of the relation
[7798]|
[7799]is ship was. I mean, the same reason that we establish a relation-!
[7801]L
[7802]19 | ship with the press in this town. There were certain things tha
[7803]3 1
[7804]s 20 -might come to the attention of the press involving true names
[7805]9 i . |
[7806]a
[7807]¢ 2} and incidents that we felt should perhaps not be surfaced at any
[7808]8 1
[7809]€ .
[7810]3 | particular time. |
[7811]3 22 | 2 |
[7812]° | H
[7813]r 93 | Q Do you have any knowledge of use of the press-in Miani!
[7814]= Ton |
[7815]a a4 for propaganda purposes? :
[7816]z ° : |
[7817]g 25 A No. No.
[7818]T oO ‘
[7819]|
[7820]HW 50955 DodId:32203851 Page 97 SECRET |
[7822]moh 1
[7827]Pnone (Area 202) $44-G000
[7829]am
[7830]WARD & PAUL
[7831]le
[7834]1?
[7835]18
[7836]19
[7838]| 20
[7839]21
[7840]22
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[7850]SECRET
[7852]95
[7854]Q Would you know if that were the case?
[7856]A No. I really wouldn't know, but the relationship was
[7858]a two-way street. It wasn't simply that we assisted these
[7859]people as well as they were assigint us.
[7861]Q What assistance would you render for members of
[7862]the press in Miami?
[7864]x
[7866]A Well, in the case of Gemretuneae
[7868]we would put him in contact with the Chiefs of Stations of
[7869]areas he periodically visited and the Chiefs of Stations
[7870]would give him background briefings and this type of thing
[7872]on the developments within a given country.
[7874]Q Was that done evenhandedly for various newspapers?
[7876]Predominantly, I would say probably (EN@BMGeam:
[7878]Rater
[7880]ton traveled atqréatedeal throug
[7882]Q Was he also used as a source?
[7883]A No.
[7884]Q- Do newspapermen in Washington, D.C., receive
[7886]similar briefings?
[7888]A Yes.
[7890]Q We talked with Mr.Olsen for a short period of time
[7892]about fronts, revolutionary fronts. How large were these
[7894]organizations?
[7896]WY 50955 Docld:32203 Ls Page 98 | G2Efper
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[7905]10
[7909]12
[7911]13
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[7916]14
[7917]15
[7918]16
[7919]17
[7920]18
[7923]20
[7924]21
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[7933]25
[7935]SECRET
[7937]96
[7938]A Well, the membership varied. As I said, we were
[7939]principally interested in the leadership of the organizations.
[7940]Once the organization was established and the leadership took
[7941]over, then they would take care of enlisting the, I guess,
[7943]getting membership from the Cuban exile community to join.
[7945]Q What were their functions, the fronts? :
[7947]A Well, it was to bring some unity out of this chaotic’
[7949]|
[7951]thing of the splinter groups and get -- as I said, it was a |
[7953]political organization in exile.
[7955]Q Did they conduct any operations?
[7957]A No, not that I knowof. :
[7959]Q Just like a political varty?
[7961]A Like a political party.
[7963]Q How many of these fronts were there?
[7965]A There were several of then. I really don't remember
[7967]the names of them. The FRD was one. The Revolutionary
[7968]Democratic Front. I guess that was probably the biggest one.
[7970]And there were some others.
[7972]Q The RDF?
[7974]A FRD. . .
[7976]Q I see.
[7978]A Front Revolutionary Democratic. It is the
[7980]Democratic Revolutionary Front.
[7981]Q All right. Are these groups still in existence?
[7983]A I would think not. I really don’t know.
[7985]HY 50955 DoclId: 32203851 Page 99 ey ea ay i, A
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[7994]12
[7996]13
[7998]14
[8000]Bn,
[8001]WARD & PAUL
[8003]15
[8004]16
[8005]17
[8006]18
[8007]19
[8008]| 20
[8009]al
[8010]22
[8012]23
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[8016]25
[8018]24
[8020]Se
[8022]SECRET
[8024]97
[8026]Q Is there a CIA station in Puerto Rico? >
[8028]A No. There was but there isn't any more. There
[8029]hasn't been one there for wnars.
[8031]Q When was it disbanded?
[8033]A I think the station was established around 1953
[8034]and ~- perhaps it was established before that. I think it
[8035]went out of existence in 1958.
[8037]Q Do you know why it went out of. existence?
[8039]A No, I don't. I don't have any idea.
[8041]Q Do you know what function it was performing?
[8043]A - (Nods in negative.)
[8045]Q You mentioned earlier that Bernard Barker worked
[8046]in the Cuban community for the CIA?
[8048]A He worked with these fronts, too.
[8050]Q Was he performing any intelligence function in the
[8051]community?
[8053]A . Intelligence functions. Well --
[8055]Q Was he collecting information?
[8057]A Sure. If he got information that he thought was
[8058]worthwhile he would pass it on. |
[8060]Q Now, would he have been considered one of the three
[8062]or 500 persons employed or assigned to the Miami Station?
[8063]A Yes. He was a contract employee.
[8064]Q And were intelligence requirements levied on such
[8066]contract employees?
[8068]HW 50955 pocta:32203¢51 Page 100 GECOET
[8070]HW 50955
[8072]SECRET 98
[8073]_
[8074]: A Normally, the requirements are pretty standard,
[8075]wt t
[8076]8 2 | or they were at that time. But here again, you always have
[8077]é 5 | ad hoc type things that pop uo from time to time, and have to
[8078]é 4 | be surfaced.
[8079]8 Q “Some of these contract employees were, then, in
[8080]6 | the business of collecting intelligence information in the
[8081]a | Cuban communities in Miami.
[8082]8 A Right.
[8083]9 Q Now, I think we finished with chanhatenns but can
[8084]10 you think of any other functions performed by (ENSRAomSg that
[8085]il we have not discussed in the course of the afternoon?
[8086]F 12 A No, not really. No.
[8087]2
[8088]: 15 ; Q I think you previously described them for me as the
[8089]: 14 eyes and ears into the Cuban community.
[8090]15 A Right.
[8091]16 Q And they actually had a physical facility in Miami
[8092]17 which was their headquarters, did they not?
[8093]18 A Exactly.
[8094]3 19 Q . And-there was a CIA Case Officer who managed t9 3:ipe
[8095]8 .
[8096]; , 20 vise that facility.
[8097]a
[8098]8 21 A Yes.
[8099]i 221° | Q Now, what has happened to (En EP ANG
[8100]; 23 A [inewMorsywere gradually phased down and will ao
[8101]: 24 out of existence -- GHSURMOTS are out of existence, aren't
[8102]2 25 they? Isn't it the fAMipURESS or -- these are the
[8104]DocTd: 32203851 Page 101 SECRET
[8107]|
[8108]SECRET |
[8109]Se) 99 |
[8110]ah 5 8 i |
[8111]z | !
[8112]( 4 | °
[8113]Sg 2 |
[8114]3 A |
[8115]i 5 | |
[8116]2 4 9 :
[8118]& 4 4 ‘
[8119]i @ |
[8121]| A Yes. The only reason we use two different names ;
[8122]P ;
[8123]~ | is that in each of these things in those days we had to have
[8124]7 \
[8125]a project which had to be renewed every year to get the - !
[8126]é | |
[8127]‘ funding. :
[8128]9 °
[8129]10
[8130]A Synonymous. :
[8131]11
[8132]Q “~~ are cryptonyms?
[8133]i
[8134]2 le
[8135]5 A Yes. |
[8136]f é 13 :
[8137]s 8 Q Do the initials stand for anything other than -- !
[8138]: 14
[8139]A No. Just pick them out. If you want to encrypt |
[8140]16 somebody you just call downstairs and they give you a |
[8141]: |
[8142]16 ‘crypt. You don't have anything to do-with it. QGRg
[8143]17
[8144]18 |
[8145]Q Now, turning to the Miami Station's involvement for .
[8147]3 19 assistance to the Secret Service in connection with the
[8148]a . i
[8149]- |
[8150]g 20 political conventions in 1968 and 1972, would you briefly
[8152]3 ei describe for me the nature of the assistance provided hy
[8153]5 .
[8154]= ze the Agency to the Secret Service?
[8155]i |
[8156]. @ 4 25 A At the request of the Secret Service we conducted:
[8157]s !
[8158]a . . t
[8159]{ = 24 name traces on individuals whom the Secret Service wanted |
[8160]8 !
[8161]. 25 traced. These includedthe employees of all hotels in Miami :
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[8165]SECRET 7
[8167]6 100}
[8168]3 |
[8169]8 1 i .
[8170]. § | Beach where any convention activities were to take place, |
[8171]re) {
[8172]Vg an , . a ;
[8173]a | employees of catering services, limosine service, employees !
[8174]é 3 | a
[8175]e | in ~- what do they call it, the Civic Center in Miami. It
[8176]é a | .
[8177]| is a big auditorium down there. I forget what they call it. q
[8178]i + t
[8179]5 | '
[8180]Poreiqn news people and media, television, radio people.
[8182]: Q Were these people on whom name traces were requested.
[8183]i
[8184]7 | __. . .
[8185]i all foreign nationals?
[8186]8 . . '
[8187]' A All foreign nationals.
[8188]9 .
[8189]Q Was thera any check made to determine whether
[8190]. -
[8192]10 any of them were American citizens? i
[8193]Y ; |
[8194]il . 0 ;
[8195]A We levied on the Secret Service as a requirement ;
[8196]Qe _ |
[8197]3 that they have identified these people by nationality before |
[8198]ig 13 | |
[8199]‘ ; -° ll we would run a, name trace. Inadvertently, at one time |
[8200]« i
[8201]: 14 . . ; . ; wo eee
[8202]they did submit a list, a rather long list of American citizens
[8204]15 which we promptly sent back to them and told them we could
[8205]. (
[8206]16 not trace.
[8207]i
[8208]i” Q And this practice was followed both in 1968 and
[8209]|
[8210]18 1972?
[8211]3 19 A That is right. |
[8212]3 .
[8213]g 20 Q And where were these names traced? |
[8214]- ie)
[8215]€ .
[8216]. oo: |
[8217]3 21 A They were traced back here and also in Miami. The
[8218]Fs ; . |
[8219]z a2 Miami Station did their name check and we did our name check
[8220]ul .
[8221]a
[8222]@ 3 25 here. In the case of Cubans, probably the Miami Station had
[8224]( z e4 more information on the Cubans than we would have back here.
[8225]we
[8226]o .
[8227]. 265 | Q But the names were traced through Agency files?
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[8272]101
[8274]A Through Agency files.
[8276]Q ° Was Secret Service receiving cooperation from FBI
[8277]on this as well?-
[8279]A Oh, yes.
[8281]Q And in effect,they were getting an all-Agency name
[8282]check --
[8284]A Right. .
[8286]Q “~~ on people who might pose a security threat --
[8288]A Yes.
[8290]Q ~~ to a candidate?
[8292]A Well, they were just trying to determine who might
[8294]be a security threat.
[8296]Q That is right. Potential threat.
[8297]A Yes.
[8298]Q For what political parties -- strike that.
[8300]In'1968 was this service provided for both political
[8302]conventions?
[8303]A Both political conventions.
[8304]Q Were they both held in Miami that year?
[8305]A No. I guess it was in 1972 they were both held
[8307]there. I think it was just the Democratic in 1968.
[8309]Q These requests did come from the Secret Service
[8310]rather than --
[8312]A From the Secret Service and it was -=- the Director
[8314]of the Secret Service came to the DCI and asked him for
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[8323]N
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[8342]1?
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[8349]21
[8350]22
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[8361]SECRET
[8363]102
[8364]support.
[8365]! Q Do you still maintain the records with respect to
[8366]| that tracing activity?
[8367]i
[8368]| A I have all the names that have been traced.
[8369]re] And they are on little cards down in your files?
[8370]i A Yes. |
[8371]Q Why have those records been maintained? Is there
[8372]any reason those records have been maintained?
[8373]A Well, because we were told to maintain them when
[8374]the Watergate thing broke..
[8375]Q I see.
[8376]A And since then nobody will destroy anything.
[8377]Q OK. Are you aware of any picketing at various
[8378]places in the country that has been conducted by Cuban
[8379]groups?
[8380]1
[8381]A I was not aware of it until I was told of it.
[8383]I still don’t know whether this was a spontaneous action on
[8384]the part of these people or whether they were instructed to
[8385]do it. I tried to run that down and I have been unable to.
[8387]Q At what locations has it been reported that pickets
[8388]were located?
[8390]A Airline offices in New York, Miami. I think ancther
[8391]place. I forget where it was.
[8393]Q Have you in fact been able to verify that these
[8395]persons were Cubans?
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[8436]PAMGRS
[8438]A
[8440]that this indeed did take place. Now, what I have been trying
[8442]SECRET | 103
[8444]Well, it is a matter of record in the
[8446]history
[8448]to determine is whether the On-Site Case Officer authorized
[8450]this,which I fully doubt.
[8452]Q
[8454]Who was the On-Site Case Officer?
[8456]At that time it was a fellow by the name o
[8458]Is he still alive?
[8460]Yes, he is down in Miami. But I just do not know
[8462]whether this was a unilateral action on the part of (ea
[8464]against the countries that were then trading with
[8466]Cuba, notably Spain and Great Britain and France.
[8468]Q
[8470]A
[8472]can do.
[8474]Q
[8476]Other than this incident which we -- strike -nac.
[8477]What kind of an investigation have you conducted?
[8479]I have talked to people, which is really all vou
[8481]There is no other way you can do it.
[8483]You have been unable to determine who, if anyone,
[8485]authorized this activity? Have you been able to identify
[8487]any of the persons who participated in the picketing?
[8489]A
[8491]Q
[8493]No.
[8495]With what frequency did this activity occur?
[8496]I don't have any idea. I only know of one instance.’
[8497]This was in New York City?
[8499]New York City and Miami.
[8501]Do you know of any organized political activity trac
[8503]SECRET
[8505]SECRET
[8507]& 104
[8508]abh 108 aT
[8510]. $ yengaged in?
[8511]i 3 2 .
[8512]& To my Knowledge, they didn't engage in any. i
[8513]a 3 a
[8514]2 Any political activity. H
[8516]Do you know of any other activities that they have |
[8517]5: sate uae . i
[8518]| conducted within this country, they or any of their members :
[8519], {
[8520]S| have conducted within this country that we have not already “
[8521]i
[8522]? | discussed this afternoon?
[8523]|
[8525]8 A No. i
[8526]‘ i
[8527]9 Q Any political activities? Any operations?
[8528], 10 A No. Not really. Of course, we have used certain
[8529]@ dil select individuals to what we call hand-hold defectors, Cuban
[8530]: 3 _ defectors. In other words, live with them until they are
[8531]oo ;
[8532]a ; is resettled and this type of thing. And this is another activity
[8533]fe 4
[8534]< 1
[8535]id 14 they engaged in. But other than that, I can't think of any- :
[8536]is thing else.
[8537]16 | Q Do you know of any criminal activities that have
[8538]17 been attribited to -- 1.
[8539]16 A I have heard of some allegations which have never
[8540]3 19 been proven. |
[8541]° i
[8542]a ; . |
[8543]3 20 Q What are the allegations? |
[8544]a
[8545]ec i
[8546]3 a1 A The allegations concern break-ins and surveillances |
[8547]c
[8548]3 22 ‘and this type of thing.
[8549]ul '
[8550]- a
[8551]@ Z 23 Q Have those allegations been made with any fre-
[8552]{ gs 24 quency? :
[8553]2 |
[8554]* 45) A Well, I forget who it was. It was during the
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[8559]I
[8561]Phone {Area 202) $44-6000
[8563]10
[8567]|
[8568]|
[8569]|
[8570]|
[8571]12
[8572]i 13}
[8573]14 |
[8574]16
[8575]|
[8578]WARD & PAUL
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[8582]17
[8584]18
[8585]19
[8586]- 20
[8587]21
[8589]22
[8591]@ 23
[8593]{ 24
[8595]410 First Street, §.E£., Washington, 0.C. 20003
[8597]25
[8599]HW 50955 DocId: 32203
[8601]memory exercise.
[8603]SECRET
[8605]105
[8607]Watergate trial. Some of these allegations that came out
[8609]and I think they were carried in the Anderson column but we i
[8610]made file checks and this tyne of thing. One varticular
[8612]activity was supposed to have been carried out in Rockefeller
[8614]Center in New York and it turns out it was taken out of
[8616]context. It was a training mission and -- training exercise.
[8618]ry
[8620]i
[8622]These guys were being trained in surveillance in New York |
[8624]and they were simply asked to go into a branch of the Manhatta
[8625]-~- Chase Manhattan and to come back out and then they were —
[8627]- . i
[8628]supposed to diagram the layout of the bank. And this to some
[8630]of them meant casing the bank when in fact it was just a
[8632]Q With what frequency were those kinds of training
[8634]exercises conducted?
[8636]A Well, whenever there was an ~-- whenever it was felt
[8637]that these people, selected individuals, were to be trained
[8638]in trade craft. .
[8640]Q- And did their trade craft training include such :
[8642]things as surveillance?
[8644]A Sure.
[8645]Q And break-ins?
[8646]A No. Not break-ins. Nor surreptitious entry. As I
[8648]said, in the case of this particular thing,-it was misinter-
[8650]preted as casing the bank. These exercises were given -- they
[8652]could have walked into your office, your outer office and
[8654]451 Page 108 Gere BET
[8656]Phone (Area 202} 544-6000
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[8660]Li
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[8664]13
[8666]pe,
[8668]14
[8670]WARD & PAUL
[8672]15
[8674]16
[8676]17 |
[8678]18
[8680]19
[8682]20
[8684]21
[8686]22
[8688]235
[8690]24
[8692]410 First Street, 5.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003
[8694]25
[8696]HW 50955 Docld: 32203851
[8698]SECRET
[8700]106
[8702]said -- the instructor could have said two hours later tell
[8703]me what is in that outer office? What is the layout of it?
[8704]This is just for observation.
[8706]Q You stated earlier none of those allegations have
[8707]been proven. “Have any of them been proved to your
[8708]satisfaction?
[8710]A No. Ithink we disproved them to my satisfaction.
[8712]Q I take it you do not believe they took place other
[8714]than the training exercise?
[8716]A Oh, no. No. I don't believe they did.
[8718]ane) Do you know of any instances where members of tnat
[8720]group have broken in, made any other type of illegal entry
[8721]in this country?
[8723]A No.
[8725]Q Have you ever been present at any discussions of
[8726]the legality or illegality of maintaining stations like the
[8728]Miami Station within this country?
[8730]A. Legality? No.
[8731]Q How about the propriety?
[8732]A Well, to my knowledge, that really never came up.
[8734]No one to my knowledge, has ever questioned the legality or
[8735]the propriety of having the Station.
[8737]Q There have been some allegations in the press and
[8739]elsewhere about possible misuse of Cuban exiles, members of
[8741]that community, by the CIA. Are you aware of those?
[8743]Page 109 &brorr
[8745]Pnone (Arca 202) 544-6000
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[8778]410 First Street, $.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003
[8780]25
[8781]HW 50955 Docld: 32203851
[8783]other examples of unusual activities. Do you have any knowledge
[8785]--of operation within this country?
[8787]SECRET 107
[8789]Q We received some correspondence and I have seen some
[8791]articles that suggest that the Cuban community is sort of
[8792]a resource that is occasionally tapped by the CIA for various
[8794]operations in this country.
[8798]A You mean this country? \
[8800]9 Yes. Picketing was one example. There were also some
[8802]of use by the CIA of Cuban nationals or exiles for any type
[8804]A No.
[8806]Q Do you know whether or not the Agency has provided
[8808]any financial support for Cuban buSinessmen in this country?
[8810]A No. Not to my knowledge.
[8812]Q
[8814]A No.
[8816]Q Establishment of businesses?
[8818]A No.
[8820]Q No?
[8822]A No.
[8824]0] In the course of our discussions today we discussed
[8826]various political front groups,
[8828]revolutionary front groups. Are there any other emigre,
[8832]Cuban emigre groups in the Miami area which have been supporte:
[8836]by the Agency, either financially or otherwise?
[8837]Page 110 |
[8839]103. |
[8841]8 1
[8842]e A Not to my knowledge.
[8843]va
[8844]= 2 QO Are you familiar with the appendix that was attached
[8845]a .
[8846]g 3 to Mr. Colby?s statement?
[8847]E 4 A Yes.
[8848]|
[8849]5 Q Did you have some role in drafting that? |
[8850]6 A You mean the Miami Station thing? - 1
[8851]i :
[8852]9 Q Appendix J, entitled, "The Miami Station". |
[8853]8 A Yes.
[8854],
[8855]9. Q You wrote it? }
[8856]i
[8857]~ t
[8858]A Yes.
[8859]10
[8860]ll Q It has a familiar ring about it. There are: referenc?:
[8861]12 to indigenous organizations, emigre organizations. Are
[8862]eT
[8863]2 :
[8864]“ é 13 there any others other than the ones we have been ciscustsi0?
[8865]- a- i
[8867]3 14
[8868]15
[8869]16
[8870]1?
[8871]18 ;
[8873]° i
[8874]3 .
[8875]S 20 :
[8876]a
[8878]2 21 |
[8879]3° 22 ,
[8881]< 23
[8882]a 2A Q Do you have any personal knowledge of what kind of ;
[8883]3 25 intelligence-gathering activities are conducted in the "iam:
[8884]3
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[8896]Pnone (Area 202) 544 edb
[8897]ie) te
[8899]aH an
[8901]10
[8902]11
[8903]12
[8905]13
[8907]WARD & PAUL
[8909]14
[8910]15
[8911]16
[8912]17
[8913]18
[8914]19
[8915]20
[8916]21
[8917]22
[8918]25
[8920]24
[8922]410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003
[8924]25
[8926]Docld: 32203601
[8928]SECRET
[8930]109
[8931]A There are no domestic activities at all @iiien
[8932]here to Headquarters. The Sn} now is completely
[8933]and solely involved in the intelligence in the Caribbean.
[8934]Q na-- I beg your pardon --
[8936]does the Headquarters component that now handles the Cuban
[8937]situation in Miami run any agents in the Cuban community?
[8938]A No. Well, let me explain that to you. We do have
[8940]a career agent who has been with us for a good many years
[8944]be
[8945]Oo
[8946]Gc
[8947]om
[8948]it
[8949]3
[8950]Fay)
[8951]0)
[8952]c
[8953]be
[8955]| ak
[8956]ct
[8957]be
[8958]oO
[8959]u
[8961]i
[8963]O
[8964]on
[8966]if
[8967]=]
[8968]q
[8969]s)
[8971]10)
[8972]Qa
[8973]ion
[8974]a
[8975]QO
[8976]7
[8977]eemmareree ne ete coer cee a ent ne nt Re tN A NA A A LL ASA AAD AAA
[8979]in Miami and we do use him to contact relatives of Cubans
[8980]who are still in Cuba. I mean, relatives who are in the U.S.
[8981]who have relatives in Cuba.
[8983]Now, this is done principally with the idea of a
[8985]recruitment target, determine weaknesses or strengths, this
[8987]type of thing. He does contact these people all over the
[8988]United States. If we come across an individual that looks like
[8989]he might be recruitable, or perhaps we could even double hin,
[8990]we will, after we make our preliminary assessment, and we
[8992]find out where relatives and these types of people are, we
[8993]will ask this career agent or instruct him to go contact
[8994]these people, be it. New York, New Jersey, Chicago, or what-
[8996]ever.
[8998]Q So you use Cuban, now citizens or aliens in this
[9000]country, aS access agents.
[9002]Page 112 “ eS
[9004]| SECRET | 110
[9005]@»> 16 . . .
[9006]8
[9007]7 3 1 .
[9008]3 A Right.
[9009]& H
[9010]s 2}
[9011]3 Q Just like foreign associates would do.
[9012]$ ° A Exactly.
[9013]2 | .
[9014]* 4 9 Are there any more people like Bernard Barker who
[9015].
[9016]5 are contract employees of the Agency who still work in the
[9017]6 Miami-Cuban community?
[9018], ? A No. None,
[9019]. 8 Q That entire apparatus has been --
[9020]9 A las been dismantled.
[9021]10 Q -- dismantled. What is the @éu
[9022]“11
[9024]3
[9026]oe 13 as far as I know. I think it will be@BR by the next fiscal
[9027]a
[9029]3 14 year.
[9030]LS MR. MANFREDI: Off the record.
[9031]16 (Discussion off tne record.)
[9032]1? /MR.MANFREDI: Let's go back on the record.
[9033]18 BY MR. MANFREDI:
[9034]” 19 Q There are presently no Cuban Ops being conducted out
[9035]3
[9036]5 20 - Of Miami?
[9037]fa]
[9038]8 21 A No. All Cuban Ops. are being conducted out of
[9040]3 Le Headquarters.
[9041]Q '
[9042]2 23 Q And even from the Headquarters location there are
[9043]@ z 24 no paramilitary operations?
[9044]3
[9045]. 25 A No.
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[9052]“on LT,
[9053]8 1
[9054]= Q) No covert -- well, there is some vropaganda activity
[9055]s 2
[9056]“ being conducted still?
[9057]a 3 |
[9058]2 A On a very small scale, and the covert action facilitd
[9060]é Qa | :
[9061]| that we had, tne radio, taped srogram, is being terminated |
[9062]5 | |
[9063]by 30 June. So for all practical purposes, it is terminated |
[9064]6 | ,
[9065]| now. ' ‘
[9067]. Q \
[9068]8
[9069]‘ A Yes.
[9070]9 . -
[9071]2 And it has been decreased to how many people?
[9072]10 . |
[9073]A Between@@ip and @it
[9075]: a QO And it has absolutely no responsibilities with
[9076]4 le
[9077]3 ; respect to Cuba?
[9078]a" 13
[9079]as A Absolutely none.
[9080]$14 |
[9081]Q And its responsibilities are entirely directed to
[9082]15 : . :
[9083]other Latin American countries?
[9084]16 a
[9085]A To Caribbean countries.
[9086]17 . - . . .
[9087]Q Caribbean countries. And I trust that there are
[9088]18 other Agency stations in the Caribbean?
[9089]a 19 A Yes.
[9090]8 .
[9091]¥ 20 Q Well, I have no further questions, Mr. Sturbitts.
[9092]§ 21 .
[9093]® If you have anything you would like to add you are welcome
[9095]= 22 to do so.
[9096]“ 23
[9097]@ g A No, I have nothing.
[9098]a
[9099]E 24 9 I want to thank you on behalf of myself and the
[9100]o
[9101]= 25
[9103]Commission for your cooperation.
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[9107]oh 18
[9109]HW 50955
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[9115]11
[9119]13
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[9124]15
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[9142]Sure.
[9144]I am sorry we had to take so much of your time,
[9145]That is all right.
[9147]Thank you again.
[9149](Whereupon, at 3:35 o'clock p.m., the taking of the
[9151]deposition was concluded.)
[9153]SECRET