[1]180-10131-10329
[3]| 2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992 0
[5]JFK Assassination System Date:
[6]Identification Form
[8]Agency Information
[10]HSCA
[12]AGENCY :
[13]RECORD NUMBER:  180-10131-10329
[14]RECORD SERIES: SECURITY CLASSIFIED TESTIMONY
[15]AGENCY FILENUMBER: 014727
[16]Document Information
[17]ORIGINATOR: HSCA
[18]FROM: SHAW, ROBERT T.
[19]TO:
[20]TITLE :
[21]DATE: 05/16/1978
[22]PAGES: 78
[23]SUBJECTS :
[24]CIA, FILES
[25]CIA, METHODOLOGY :
[26]SHAW, ROBERT T., TESTIMONY BEFORE THE COMMITTEE
[27]OSWALD, LEE, POST RUSSIAN PERIOD, TRAVEL, TRIPT TO
[28]MEXICO .
[29]DURAN, SYLVIA
[30]DOCUMENT TYPE: TRANSCRIPT
[31]CLASSIFICATION: — Secret
[32]RESTRICTIONS : 1B
[33]CURRENT STATUS: — Redact
[34]DATE OF LASTREVIEW: — 02/01/2003
[35]OPENING CRITERIA :
[36]COMMENTS : Box 5
[40]HW 50955 DocId: 32277214 Page 1
[42][ASCIONE: amt We ee a ha 1-1
[44]i EXECUTIVE SESSTON
[46]] 4 i ~-~-—-
[50]i i
[52]2 | TUESDAY, MAY 16, 1978: |
[54]; |
[56]i | 77
[58]wn i |
[60]z | U.S. House of Representatives,,
[62]4 | |
[64]2 8] Subcommittee on the Assassina-
[66]= ‘| tion of John F. Kennedy of |
[68]= 7 | the Select Committee on i
[70]~ | Assassinations,
[72]Soa) |
[74]~ Washington, D.C. |
[77]a i The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 4:40 p.m.
[79]| , i
[83]= | in room 3370, House Annex No. 2, 2nd and D Streets, S.W. !
[87]5 4 Present: Michael Goldsmith and Dan Hardway.
[91]fof oe
[93]@ ia
[95]= i Mr. Goldsmith. Miss Reporter, would you please swear
[96]z i in the witness?
[98]= | The Reporter. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony
[100]= is | ;
[102]. if . . a : om ‘
[104]= \ which you are about to give will be the truth, the whole :
[106]“7 4 4
[108]al | truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
[110]2 18
[112]a Mr. Shaw. I do.
[114]= IF
[120]| |
[122]| |
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[130]HW 50955 Docld: 32277214 Page 2 ALDERSO*
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[190]HW 50955 Docld:
[193]TESTIMONY OF ROBERT T. SHAW
[194]| Mr. Goldsmith. Would you state your name and address
[195]\ for the record?
[196]| Mr. Shaw. Robert T. Shaw, 3715 Acosta Road, Fairfax,
[197]| Virginia, 22031.
[199]| Mr. Goldsmith. What is your present occupation, Mr.
[200]| Shaw?
[202]Mr. Shaw. I am undercover with the Department of State,
[204]General, Central Intelligence Agency.
[206]Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, I handed you earlier a copy
[208]of a letter from the Acting Director of the Central Intelli-
[210]gence, Mr. Carlucci, to the Chairman of this Committee. It
[212]corresponds to JFK Exhibit No. 94 in the Committee's hearing
[214]record.
[216]Have you had a chance to read that letter?
[218]Mr. Shaw. I readJit justzcnow.
[220]Mr. Goldsmith. Do.you. understand it?
[221]Mr. Shaw. I understand it.
[223]Mr. Goldsmith. I also would like to hand you the
[225]Committee's rules and resolutions and ask you at this time
[227]to read Rule No. 4 to yourself.
[229](Pause)
[231]Mr. Shaw. I read it over.
[233]Mr. Goldsmith. Do you understand that?
[235]SECRET
[237]ALDESSON REPORTING Cool Pany
[239]32277214 Page 3 i
[241]but my actual-occupation is Inspector, Office of the Inspector |
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[300]HW 50955 DocId:
[302]Mr. Shaw. I understand it.
[304]Mr. Goldsmith. Do you understand that you have a right
[306]| to counsel?
[308]Mr. Shaw. Yes.
[310]Mr. Goldsmith. Do you waive that right to counsel?
[311]Mr, Shaw. I do not need counsel.
[313]1 .
[314]| Mr. Goldsmith. Do yourunderstand that, under. the
[316]Committee rules, that you have a right to receive a copy of
[317]the statement you are going to give us at this deposition?
[319]Mr. Shaw. I should hope so, to check it for accuracy.
[321]Mr. Goldsmith. However, by virtue of the arrangement
[322]| that the Committee has worked out with the Central Intelligence
[323]th
[325]Agency, we have been asked to request of Agency employees that)
[327]| they waive their right to receive a copy of the deposition
[329]for their own retention. By that, I mean we would certainly
[331]sent et reneeneneeenee amen ee tone ome eee
[333]|
[335]be willing to grant you access to the deposition, to correct
[336]| it in any way necessary, but the Agency has requested that
[338]| we ask you to waive your right to receive an actualy copy of
[339]the deposition.
[341]| Mr. Shaw. I have no problem with that.
[343]Mr. Goldsmith. Thank you..
[345]For the record, I would like to say that the Committee’ 3!
[347]mandate is to investigate the assassination of the President.
[349]| The scope of the mandate includes who killed the President,
[351]was there a conspiracy? We are also required to evaluate
[353]SEDRET
[355]ALQERSON REFORTI we  ceeany
[357]J2277214 Page 4
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[416]HW 50955 Daocld:
[419]the performance of the investigative agencies, specifically
[420]the FBI and the CIA and to evaluate the work of the Warren |
[421]Commission..
[423]Do you understand that as well? |
[424]Mr. Shaw. Yes.
[425]Mr. Goldmsith. Prior to coming here today, have you
[427]|
[429]t
[431]| i
[433]| discussed what your tesimony is going to be with any CIA
[434]|
[436]i employee?
[438]|
[440]| Mr. Shaw. I> havesnot, except-to tell them tnat I was. :
[443]going to telltthe truth when I got over here.
[445]|
[446]|
[447]|
[448]| Mr. Goldsmith. In terms of discussing the substance of
[449]your testimony?
[451]f
[453]Mr. Shaw. None whatever. |
[454]| Mr. Goldsmith. Have you discussed with any CIA employee,
[455]past or present, who either has been interviewed by the
[457]4
[458]H
[459]i
[461]Committee or has given a statement under oath,to the Committee,
[462]what questions were asked Of him or her?
[463]Mr. Shaw. I have not.
[464]Mr: Goldsmith, Are you here today voluntarily and
[465]: without subpoena?
[466]Mr. Shaw. Yes.
[467]| Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, how long have you been working
[468]| under State Department cover?
[469]Mr. Shaw. Since approximately the date I came aboard,
[471]because I was promptly sent to the Department of State for
[473]Seber!
[475]; SASON RESORTING COMPSALY
[476]32277214 Page 5 ALQESSGN OR BARE
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[531]HW 50955 DocId:
[533]training. That would be March, 1948.
[535]Mr. Goldsmith. Would your State Department file, if
[537]actually a CIA employee?
[539]Mr. Shaw. I have no idea.
[541]Mr. Goldsmith. You do not understand how the cover
[543]arrangement would work between the Agency and the Department
[544]of State?
[546]Mr. Shaw.. I have never had anything to do with the
[548]setting up of such cover. It would well be that there might
[550]be some sort of an indicator of flag, or something in that
[551]file that would indicate to a person who knew the ropes that
[553]I was not bona fide.
[555]Mr. Goldsmith. Would there be a personnel file on you
[557]at the Central Intelligence Agency?
[559]Mr. Shaw. Yes.
[561]Mr. Goldsmith. As a matter of procédure, in terms of
[563]| how you get paid, do you get paid by the Department of State?
[565]t . .
[566]i Mr.-Shaw. No. I am under, at the present time, nominal
[568]state cover... I actually, as far as the Department of State
[569]is concerned, resigned over there in 1973, I believe. At
[570]the present time, I am paid by the. Agency.
[572]Mr.GGoldsmith. When you were working under cover, were
[573]you being paid by State at that time? |
[575]Mr. Shaw. Yes, I was.
[577]reviewed by a member of this Committee, indicate that you were}
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[625]Mr; Goldsmith. Are you familiar at all with the
[627]literature that has been generated by the assassination of
[629]the President and the work done by the Warren Commission?
[631]Mr. Shaw. Very little. I just noticed that green book
[632]there a minute ago. I have never read that thing. i
[634]Mr. Goldsmith. Book 5, for the record, of the Senate
[635]Committee Report. |
[637]Mr. Shaw. I have seen copies of the Warren Commission
[638]Report in various places around the government, but I never
[639]read it.
[641]Mr.. Goldsmith. When you were working with the State |
[642]Department in other than a nominal capacity, what. was your
[644]title?
[646]Mr. Shaw. My last title was Special Assistant to the
[648]. t
[649]: 4
[650]Ambassador and First Secretary of Embassy, Honduras.
[652]Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever work as a consular officer?
[653]Mr. Shaw. Yes, I did.
[655]Mr. Goldsmith. When you worked as a consular officer,
[657]were you required to fulfill both responsibilities as a con-
[659]sular officer and as a CIA employee?
[660]Mr. Shaw. To a certain extent.
[661]For example, I have never issued a visa. I have issued
[663]a passport for another consular officer who accepted the
[665]application and I would be on the road in northwestern Mexico
[667]arid issued the passport to the American citizen concerned.
[669]32277214 Page 7 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY
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[727]32277214 Page 8
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[732]I have done a modicum of what we call protection and
[734]welfare work. This would usually involve being again on the
[736]road, stopping in, for example, in a prison to see if there
[738]was. an American citizen there, to find out what the story
[739]was, why he was there, how he was being treated and that sort
[740]of thing, and relay that information to the consular when I
[741]got back.
[743]Actually, I have not done much consular work. I used
[744]the cover on several oceasions, “but: was: never emersed into
[745]the role to the point where it interfered with my Agency
[746]activity.
[748]Mr. Goldsmith. Normally when somebody is acting under
[749]State Depaftment cover, is the person required to hold down
[750]two jobs at the same time?
[752]Mr. Shaw. It depends.on the location of the person.
[753]As I understand it, people we have, for example, in the Iron
[754]Curtain countries, or the countries of Eastern Europe, do
[756]hold down virtually 100 percent full-time State Department,
[758]Foreign Service jobs. Some of the people that I have run. into
[760]in my work as an Inspector for the Office of the Inspector
[762]|
[763]i
[764]f
[767]General, notably in the Mid-Eastern countries, have spent muchi
[769]more time on their cover work than I did.
[771]i
[772]|
[773]i
[775]I think that it has to do basically with the permissive-'
[777]ness, or lack thereof, of the operational environment that
[778]you are in. =In Mexico, it-was not necessary to spend much
[780]SECRET
[782]ALDESSON REFORTING COMPANY
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[843]| time, at least not for me, on cover duties.
[845]Mr. Goldsmith. How long have you been working for the
[846]| Office of the Inspector General? 4
[848]Mr. Shaw. Since August of 1976. |
[850]| Mr. Goldsmith. Did you have any responsibility in the
[851]| writing of the 1977 Inspector General Report pertaining to
[852]the CIA's handling of the investigation of the Kennedy
[853]assassination?
[855]Mr. Shaw. None whatever.
[857]! -Mr. Goldsmith. Has anyone ever interviewed you before
[859]pertaining to the Mexico City situation as far as it pertained
[861]| to Oswald?
[863]i Mr. Shaw. Yes. It was about that time of '76, some-
[864]Poe
[865]body interviewed me in the CIA Headquarters building, and I
[866]| think it was a Senate Committee, but I amnnot sure. They had
[867]| some files. ; eee
[868]| . Mr. Goldsmith. Did you give your testimony under oath
[869]| at that time?
[870]Mr. Shaw. No, not that I remember.
[872]| Mr. Goldsmith. Did any CIA person ever interview you
[873]concerning Lee Harvey Oswald's activities in Mexico City and
[874]the operations of the Mexico City station?
[876]Mr. Shaws I would nave to qualify that. We discussed
[877]| the subject, of course, in Mexico City at the time of the
[878]" assassination, or immediately after the assassination.
[882]iS COMPANY
[884]32277214 Page 9 ALQESSON RESORTING COM
[889]But I cannot recall that I was ever called in anywhere
[891]4 !
[893]a | \
[894]| .
[896]and asked for my account of what transpired after the assassina
[898]tion.
[901]i
[902]1
[905]Mr. Goldsmith. Headquarters never asked you to come in
[908]and give a description, for example, of Oswald's activities,
[910]Oswald?
[912]= 3
[913]: 7 to your knowledge, in Mexico City in 1963? |
[914]5 | Mr. Shaw. No. I would not have known anything about
[915]é 7 Oswald*s activities anyway.
[916]3 | Mr. Goldsmith. Are you familiar with the photograph
[917]a , iy
[918]19 | that was taken in 1963°that was reportedly linked to Oswald
[919]WW and which subsequently turned out not to be a picture of |
[920]4
[922]1
[924]Mr. Shaw. I am familiar with a photograph that was
[926]re
[928]identified by people at the station in. Mexico City as possibly
[930]i
[932]i
[933]i
[934]i
[937]being an American-appearing person. I do not know that it
[939]REPORTS AUPE DONG, CASH TG TON ,
[940]oo
[942]-was every considered to be Oswald.
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[960]I think, if I remember correctly, what they were doinge--
[962]SUM.
[964]Mr. Goldsmith. We will get into that. My question is,
[966]did anybody from Headquarters ever ask you about that. parti-
[968]308 7tH STREDT,
[970]cular photograph or the circumstances surrounding it?
[972]“O
[974]Mr. Shaw. Negative.
[978]Mr. Goldsmith. Did anybody from Headquarters ever ask
[980]you to give a statement or report as to the manner in which
[984]i
[986]i
[988]; j
[989]i
[990]'
[994]i . : . . . :
[995]the surveillance operation in Mexico City were underatken in |
[997]1963?
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[1010]HW 50955 Docld:32277214 ‘Page 10
[1014]Mr. Shaw. No.
[1016]f
[1018]|
[1019]7 Goldsmith. Where were you serving in 1963? :
[1020]: H
[1021]3 | Mr. Shaw. From about the middle of April, I was serving
[1022]= 4 | in Mexico City in our station. |
[1023]2 | Mr. Goldsmith. How long did you stay in Mexico City? |
[1024]a i .
[1025]5 sf Mr. Shaw. I stayed there until September of 1966. |
[1026]i i
[1027]S 7 | Mr. Goldsmith. Who was the Station Chief in. Mexico
[1028]& 3 | City? |
[1029]\ N |
[1030]34 Mr. Shaw. Winston Scott.
[1032]bc.
[1034]Mr. Goldsmith. Would you give us your assessment of
[1036]a
[1038]his competence?
[1042]Mr. Shaw. Competence, It is difficult, because I was
[1044]d not looking from on high. He was a brilliant man. He was
[1045]reputed to have a doctorate in tlathematics. He had an uncanny |
[1046]ability to remember numbers and he carried in his head the !
[1048]REPORTTIS QUE Lne NG, GASTHOOMGTON |
[1049]any
[1051]file numbers of what we called P-files in Mexico City. P
[1055]uo qr i stood, I think; for personality. A P number usually was four,
[1057]. | ; |
[1059]= 1a | digits or so, maybe five digits. |
[1061]pat i |
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[1065]= 19 | And he carried all these numbers in his head and he could
[1067]= H , ; |
[1069]e 20 | mark something for such and such a file in black ink -- he
[1070]21 | always wrote in black ink -- putting the number down. He had |
[1071]no i
[1072]Yee . i
[1073]@ aw 22) a very good memory for numbers. :
[1076]as
[1078]Winn and I were friendly. We were not close. We were |
[1080]not on the same level at all.
[1082])
[1083]Bs.
[1085]I considered him to be, from my standpoint, a competent,
[1087]SPORE!
[1089]HW 50955 Docld: 32277214 Page 11 ALDESSON REPORTING COMPARY
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[1128]HW 50955 Docld: 32277214 Page 12
[1130]effective, Chief of Station.
[1132]Mr. Goldsmith. What type of file~keeping system did
[1134]he have in effect, without asking you to describe it in detail
[1136]By that, my question is directed towards his thoroughness and
[1137]comprehensiveness.
[1138]Mr. Shaw. I would say that he probably had one of the
[1140]most -~- let me see -- complete file systems in being in the
[1142]Agency. I think that he, my personal opinion is that he went
[1144]overboard, and we had so much stuff back in our files, it
[1145]was hard to believe the amount of paper we had in there.
[1146]His tendency was not to rely on cross-indexing. If
[1148]you have a document, this piece of paper means something to
[1150]-you and you want to keep it and it has 15 names on it, he
[1152]was quite capablé of setting up 15 files for the same piece
[1153]of paper. And we had a tremendous file room.
[1155]I often wondered if we needed that much paper. It was
[1156]very thorough. I am not a technician as far as managing
[1157]files, but I do know that the people who worked in the. file
[1158]room were kept very, very busy.
[1160]Mr. Goldsmith. Who were Mr. Scott's chief deputies?
[1161]Let me’rephrase the question. Upon which individuals did he
[1162]tend to rely the most?
[1164]Mr. Shaw. He had one Deputy who-was Allen White. As
[1165]far as reliance on other people, I would say he relied very
[1167]heavily on Annie Goodpasture -- not in any way in a command
[1169]NS
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[1233]| function, but as a Girl Friday.
[1235]He also seemed to think rather highly of a former one-time}
[1237]H j
[1238]i
[1240]| FBI agent named George Monroe.
[1241]qo i
[1242]' ‘Mr. Goldsmith. What about David Phillips?
[1244]_ Mr. Shaw. Yes. Dave Phillips ran the, what we called the
[1248]| CA side of the shop, covert action, mostly propaganda. I came
[1250]i
[1251]1 .
[1252]to Mexico City with the understanding that I was going to head
[1254]lup the Cuban shop. Very soon after I arrived there, Dave
[1256]Phillips was tapped -- it was while we were still in the old
[1258]I
[1259]i Embassy building.
[1261]|
[1263]He was tapped and named the new Cuban Office Chief.
[1265]‘Mr. Goldsmith. Did that happen in October '63?
[1267]Mr. Shaw.. I don't know. I do not remember, But it was
[1269]inot too long after I was there, and I was asked, I think by
[1270]|
[1272]|Dave; I don't remember -= if I had any objections to continuing;
[1274]yto serve in Cuba.
[1276]I liked Dave, I respected him. I did not feel that I
[1277]| : .
[1279]jwas being hurt, hurt careerwise, to step back and I was very
[1280]1.
[1281]jinterested in Cuban operations, so I did willingly, let us say,
[1283]relinquish command, if you want. to, of Cuban Ops and I served
[1285]iDave as one more officer. i
[1287]Later on, after Dave left, a year or two later, I once i
[1289]1
[1290]again took over the Cuban Ops group.
[1292]1
[1293]i
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[1297]i
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[1303]|
[1304]| Mx. Goldsmith. You were in charge of Cuban Operations at
[1305]jthe beqinning. Then Phillips took it over at some point and
[1307]SECRET
[1309]Hy ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY . j
[1311]32277214 Page 13 ot
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[1386]then, after Phillips left, you went back to that position?
[1387]Mr Shaw. That is right.
[1388]Mr. Goldsmith. Our review of Agency records indicates
[1389]that Phillips would have assumed that position on October of
[1390]163. Would that be consistent with your recollection? i
[1391]Mr. Shaw. My recollection would have been, had you not
[1392]tola me this based on your review of the files, that it took |
[1393]place earlier than October, but I do not know. TI really do not
[1395]know.
[1397]Mr. Goldsmith. My questions are going to be confined,
[1399]unless I indicate to the contrary, to the period up to the
[1401]end of 1963. So, from the time of your arrival in Mexico City
[1402]until the end of 1963, prior to the time that Mr. Phillips
[1403]assumed the position of Cuban operations ~~
[1405]Mr. Shaw. Chief.
[1407]Mr. Goldsmith. Chief would be the word, and you had chose
[1409]nice <5 aes
[1411]responsibilities, what did those responsibilities include?
[1412]Mr. <-Shaw.::.. Gince it was not ratified to me upon my
[1413]arrival that I. was, indeed, Chief of Cuban Ops, I simply con-
[1415]sidered myself to be one more case officer working against
[1417]the Cuban target. Our basic interest was in effecting pene-
[1419]trations of the Cuban government.
[1420]What we wanted most of all were effective penetrations |
[1421]of the Cuban Embassy, the Cuban Intelligence Service, and some
[1423]'
[1425]possible line-in to their communications set-up.
[1427]_SEGHET
[1429]ALSERSON REFORTING COMPANY
[1431]32277214 Page 14 ;
[1433]HY 50955
[1435]Ae
[1439]rd
[1440]r “
[1445]i : Mr. Goldsmith. In 1963, did you manage to place any
[1446]2 | penetration agents in the Cuban Embassy or consulate?
[1447]3 Mr, Shaw. Did I?
[1448]3 ! Mr. Goldsmith. Did the station?
[1449]EB 5 Mrs Shaw. There were two. I did not place either one,
[1450]2 4 jand 2 think they both pre-dated 1963.
[1451]5 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Were those two penetration agents within
[1452]s a | Cuban consulate or Embassy at the time of the President's
[1453]3 9 i assassination?
[1454]a i
[1455]z He Mr. Shaw. Yes. One was in the consulate -- LITAMIL-7
[1456]5 YW lwas the cryptonym. L-I-T-A-M-I-L-7. And the other one was
[1457]a i
[1458]243 » the Embassy -- LAI-T-A-M-I-L-9:
[1459]E ia | Mr. Goldsmith. What information did these people give
[1460]= | you afteriithe assassination: -pertaining to the possible involve-
[1461]= i
[1462]E 15 [ment of the Cuban government?
[1463]as Mr. Shaw. I did not handle LITAMIL-7,-and LITAMIL-93. Tf
[1464]* 7 | aia handie, ~~
[1465]: 1g | Mr. Goldsmith. Who handled LITAMIL-7?
[1466]: a Mr. Shaw. 1 think that it. was Ray Swider, but I am not
[1467]= 20 | sure. I did not meet LITAMIL-7 until Ray Swider left the
[1469]! country.
[1470]i Mr. Goldsmith. You nevertheless have had access to the
[1471]| information that this individual gave to Swider?
[1473]i Mr. Shaw. I would normally have seen copies of contact
[1476]: ; ; as 434
[1477]ALQERSON REZORTING Come anc
[1479]DocId: 32277214 Page 15
[1481]reports which were reports that we wrote -~ any of us who were;
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[1608]132277214 Page 16
[1610]‘ion or happiness whatsoever inside the Cuban Embassy at the
[1614]case officers wrote -- after station meetings, and it would
[1616]have been normal for me, for example, to see any information
[1618]of consequence that LITAMIL-7 produced, just like it would
[1619]have been normal for any other case officer in the Cuban sec-
[1620]tion to see my contact reports on meetings with LITAMIL-9.
[1622]Mr. Goldsmith. In light of that, do you know what infor-
[1623]mation LITAMIL-7 gave concerning the Cuban government's reac-
[1624]tion to the death of the President? |
[1626]Mr. Shaw. I do not recall, and I do not recall the
[1627]specifics of anything. You may have something in your files
[1629]with my name on it; I. do not know what LITAMIL=9 produced.
[1631]I do have the recollection of the sense of feeling on the
[1633]part. of those people that there was no exultation or jubila-
[1635]assassination of President Kennedy.
[1637]Mr. Goldsmith. Did the penetration agents ever indicate
[1638]that Oswald. had been to the Embassy and had stated that he was
[1639]going to attempt to kill the President?
[1641]Mr. Shaw. NO, not that I know of. |
[1643]Mr. Goldsmith. Did any of those agents ever indicate that
[1644]Oswald had had contact with the Agency -~ with the Embassy, |
[1645]rather? . |
[1647]Mr. Shaw. I whould imagine that LITAMIL-7 probably did --
[1649]i
[1650]1
[1652]I do not recall it. But since she was in the consulate, and
[1654]-~since it was my understanding that Oswald's contact with the
[1658]ALDESSON REZORTING COMPANY
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[1708]HW 50955 Docld: 32277214 Page 17
[1710]consular field rather than with the Embassy field, I should
[1712]i
[1713]i
[1716]lamagine, given the discussions that undoubtedly took place in
[1718]i
[1719]1
[1721]lithe Cuban Embassy after this assassination, that she probably
[1723]spoke about it. I do not know.
[1724]-Mr. Goldsmith. What was the name of LITAMIL-7?
[1725]Mr. Shaw. I'd rather not give names.
[1727](Discussion off the record.)
[1729]Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, in light of your response, I am
[1731]i secrecy obligation. At the same time, I am not about to rely
[1733]I understand your concern.for a sensitive source in this. case,
[1734]iI am not going to ask you to state for the record the name of
[1736]either one of these individuals.
[1738]Mr. Shaw. May I say something at this point?
[1740]Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.
[1742]Mr. Shaws, It is my understanding that both of these
[1744]| people are, if they are still alive, are living in Mexico and
[1746]| I do not want to be in a position of revealing a name which
[1747]j .
[1749]| could harm either of those people. I notice here that it says
[1751]|
[1752]| Mr. Goldsmith. You are referring now to the letter from
[1753]|
[1755]' Mr. Carlucci?
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[1831]HW 50955 DoclId:
[1833]Mr. Shaw. Yes.
[1835]asked."
[1837]reveal two names of agents,
[1839]I want to make sure you understand mine.
[1841]forcing you to reveal a name.
[1843]i reluctance to,
[1845]i matter was terminated.
[1847]Mr. Shaw.
[1849]|
[1850]“Mr. Goldsmith.
[1851]|
[1852]if
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[1855]|
[1856]|
[1858]1
[1859]| No problem?
[1861]i Mr. Goldsmith.
[1863]Mr. Shaw.
[1864]two names, it would probably produce them.
[1865]be the guy to say it.
[1867]Mr. Goldsmith.
[1868]i
[1870]i I hope you understand mine.
[1872]Mr. Shaw. I do.
[1874]i
[1876]Mr. Goldsmith. I would not want you
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[1889], compel an answer out of you.
[1890]1
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[1893]Seb
[1895]39277214 Page 16
[1897]"To provide the affected person the opportunity to
[1898]receive guidance from me or my designees on the applicability
[1900]|
[1901]c this authorization, particularly to questions which are
[1903]I would like to get Frank Carlucci to tell me that I would!
[1904]if it is necessary -~- or you can
[1905]find out from the file, probably, who they are.
[1907]Mr. Shaw, I understand your position.
[1909]I am in no way
[1911]Once you had demonstrated a
[1913]then, as far as I was concerned, then the
[1915]I will say that we will pursue this by
[1916]* contacting the appropriate people at the Adency.
[1918]I think if you requested the Agency for those
[1920]TI wouldn't want to
[1922]I understand your position perfectly.
[1924]to go back to the
[1926]| Agency and say that the staff of this Committee attempted to
[1929]|
[1931]|
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[2030]Mr. Shaw. I will not say any such thing.
[2032]Mr. Goldsmith.
[2034]Fine.
[2036]For the record, would you spell the cryptonyms of these
[2038]penetration agents?
[2040]Mr. Shaw. One of them was LITAMIL-7 -- L-I-T-A-M-I-L - 7..
[2042]The other was LITAM
[2044]Mr. Goldsmith.
[2046]Mr. Shaw. Neither one is active.
[2048]IL-9.
[2050]Are these two agents still active?
[2052]neither one is active.
[2054]Mr. Goldsmith,
[2056]I am quite sure that
[2058]For purposes of clarification, LITAMIL-7,
[2060]was that agent working out of the consulate?
[2062]Mr. Shaw. That agent was an employee of the consular
[2064]j section of the Cuban Embassy in Mexico. City.
[2066]officer of the Embassy.
[2068]LITAMIL-9 was an
[2070]Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, on the question of the identity
[2072]Mr. Ghaw. I.do not see any reason for
[2074]77 icooperated with us.
[2075]i
[2076]j
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[2081],information, if you
[2083]ty
[2087]us to get together.
[2089]just that I have
[2091]It is not that I consider you do not have a right to that
[2093]HY 50955 DocId:32277214 Page 19
[2095]feel that you need it.
[2097]cane
[2100]oh
[2101]ALDERSON REPORTING COMBARLY
[2103]It is just that I
[2108]I am required to do so. |
[2110]nD
[2112]i
[2113]| cannot bring myself to reveal the true name of an agent unless |
[2114]|
[2116]and
[2118]Mr. Goldsmith. I understand that concern. I certainly
[2120]be
[2122]respect it.
[2124]2 | (Pause) |
[2126]5 ‘| I have been informed by my researcher, Dan Hardway, that |
[2128]g 7 | the Agency is in the process of looking into this issue.
[2130]S 3 | Mr. Shaw. Okay.
[2132]- 2 | Mr. Goldsmith. At this time, I would like to get into |
[2134]: 0 the area of the telephone taps that were in operation in 1963 |
[2136]: 1) | against the Cuban Embassy and consulate. My first question is,
[2138]$ 1 | what responsibility, if any, did you have with regard to the |
[2142]ae 12 | telephone tap operation?
[2144]Mr. Shaw. No responsibility. I saw the product,
[2145]i
[2146]t
[2148]S.H, REPORTERS BUTEDING,
[2150]ig | usually.
[2151]iE | Mr. Goldsmith. Who was the individual who was in charge |
[2152]: ot that tap? |
[2153]2 ia | Mr. Shaw. I do not know whose responsibility it was. |
[2155]Ae |
[2157]z 19 | I rather suspect that it may have been Ann Goodpasture's, but |
[2158]é mt do not know for sure. I do not remember.
[2159]eee nde There were two telephone operations, two tap operations. |
[2160]OSE .
[2161]@ fal 2 i One of them was unilateral and-one of them was joint with the |
[2162]i :
[2163]22 | Mexican government.
[2164]> 2 Mr. Goldsmith. Which one was the unilateral one? By :
[2169]that, I mean which phones were covered by the unilateral one?
[2171]paces Fy a ee
[2172]a hrte,
[2174]‘ SEESON REPORTING COMPARY
[2175]HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 20 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPARY
[2179]Mr. Shaw. There was a mix,.-and I cannot. recall which
[2181]che
[2183]were which. It may well have been that we were tapping some
[2184]Cuban Embassy phones unilaterally, and some of them were being
[2186]tapped jointly. I know that there was coverage on the joint tap
[2188]i
[2190]any
[2192]operation, which I believe was called LIENVOY. I am not sure.
[2194]6 Mr. Goldsmith. That is correct.
[2198]You indicated that you think Ann Goodpasture may have been
[2200]fee)
[2202]. !
[2203]responsible for the telephone tap operation against the Cuban
[2205]i |
[2206]|
[2208]operation. What basis do you have for that?
[2210]Mr. Shaw. Responsible in the sense of picking up the take
[2212]I am not sure of that, because I know she ‘did some of that kin
[2214]of work. I am not sure who did it. We used to get copies of
[2216]countenance B..
[2218]the transcripts and I remember -- I am sure I saw some of the
[2220]300 Te STRENC, SWS REPORTERS BULEDING, GASHTNCTON, DLC, 202% (202) So4-2345
[2222]'4 it Cuban stuff on joint taps. And then, of course, taps that
[2224]iS | were run by the Mexican government.
[2226]ii Mr. Goldsmith. Did you review the-transoripts that came
[2229]iF jin as a matter of regular routine?
[2231]201
[2233]if you will, of the digest of the joint tap that was prepared, |
[2235]13 Mr. Shaw. Yes.
[2236]|
[2237]1
[2238]9 | Mr. Goldsmith. Did you read all of them?.
[2239]22 | Mr. Shaw. No. f
[2240]te uy Mr. Goldsmith. Which ones would you read?
[2241]Lan “ 1 . ' . . Hl
[2242]G and a2 Mr. Shaw. I would have been interested primarily in the |
[2243]i :
[2244]23 | Cuban ones, and what they called the resuma -~ it was sort of
[2245]|
[2246]© a4 a Spanish word for resume -- the resuma was a distillation,
[2247]. : H
[2248]i
[2251]| . on Peal
[2252]ESS RE
[2254]=P NG § news
[2256]HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 21
[2260]aft believe, for the Mexican President. You look at the resuma,
[2262]which may be two pages, and you may have the gist of what mignt|
[2263]i
[2265]|
[2266]|
[2267]3 | he a whole bunch of pages of tap. |
[2268]© 4 Mr. Goldsmith. Normally, you read transcripts of conver-
[2269]Z s | sations that took place on telephones of the Cuban Embassy, |
[2270]F a he that correct? |
[2271]S 7 Mr: Shaw. Normally, I read some of that stuff. I do not
[2272]S : | remember whether I saw it all-or, not, becausesquite a bit of:
[2273]e ;
[2274]; 5 | it was processed by other people. I do not know who they were,!
[2275]: | people on the outside, I suppose. And I read summaries of
[2277]g 1) || what appeared on these things, but I remember also, at times, |
[2278]g iz | seeing the verbatim -- Man Outside says so and so;. Person |
[2279]r Z 12 | Inside, Woman Inside, says such and such.
[2280]= i
[2281]= | Mr. Goldsmith. Sometimes you would get - summary trans=
[2282]rn ;
[2283]: .¢  eriptions. of the sumary’conwérsations or English and sometimes
[2284]S i
[2285]= ig | You would get verbatim translations, is that correct?
[2286]4 nf Mr. Shaw. Yes. TI would see them, I would not get them. :
[2287]: a they would go past me. I would see them.
[2288]: | Mr. Goldsmith. Was it more likely that what you would see
[2289]¢ 2 | in verbatim form, conversations. that took place, for example, :
[2290]a a lin Russian and had to be translated before you received them? |
[2291]@ a 2 Mr. Shaw. I certainly would not see any conversations |
[2293]| in Russian, because the Cuban Embassy did not have any Russian)
[2295]; conversations. I cannot reahly answer that question. I am
[2297]! not really sure I fully understand it. I do remember seeing
[2299]SECRET
[2301], a ALGERSSN REFORTING COMPANY
[2302]HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 22 GERSSN _“
[2304]a variety of take, what we call take, from the various tap
[2306]1 operations. This take sometimes was processed into English.
[2310]|
[2311]The stuff that appeared in the resuma was in Spanish. Sometimes
[2313]7
[2314]7 the conversations were typed out in Spanish and translated into’
[2315]|
[2316]= sl English. I prefer them in Spanish, because I am at home in
[2317]: 5 | Spanish. |
[2318]g i Mr. Goldsmith. How many peeplhe reviewed the take from :
[2319]Z z | the surveillance operation of the Cuban Embassy and consular
[2320]; ; | telephones? |
[2321].. IC i Mr. Shaw. I have no idea. I assume there were quite a
[2322]a |
[2323]Z 1 | few. The stuff was widely passed around.
[2324]: | Mr. Goldsmith. As a matter of routine, how many people
[2325]: |
[2326]? : 43 would review them? |
[2327]zs 7 Mr. Shaw. I have no idea. |
[2328]z i
[2329]é i Mr. Goldsmith. How many people were in Cuban operations? |
[2330]Z _ Mr. Shaw. I would guess five or six. |
[2331]r . | Mr. Goldsmith. Who were they?
[2332]: |
[2333]z 2 Mr. Shaw. Dave Phillips. !
[2334]: ia Mr. Goldsmith. We are talking now about the period 1963? |
[2335]= | i
[2336]é zo | Mr. Shaw. That is right. Dave Phillips,wmyself, Ray
[2337]on [Swider. I am trying to think of the girl's name. We had — |
[2338]DS ae 4 i
[2340]F
[2341]eS
[2342]is
[2343]ASS
[2344]ire)
[2347]various secretaries in there. I.do not know who was the secre-
[2349]io)
[2350]ta
[2352]utary in '63. Peggy Magert. “I'm not sure she was there at
[2355]@ a
[2358]1
[2359]t
[2360]|
[2361]i that time..
[2362]|
[2363]i
[2364]1
[2365]i
[2366]i
[2367]1
[2368]4
[2370]Of course, Allen White would see it. Winn Scott would see
[2372]_ SEORE
[2374]HW 50955 Docld: 32277214 Page 23 SSSson a OeTING. COMPARY
[2376]Sa
[2378]BS
[2384]= 5
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[2414]an
[2416]REPORTERS 3
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[2425]= 3
[2426]ee a
[2427]at
[2429]HW 50955 Docla: +
[2431]it.
[2433]Mr. Goldsmith. They would not review every transcript
[2435]Mr. Shaw. I imagine Winn. Scott; I do not know about
[2436]Allen White. Winn was pretty much, he tended to review almost
[2437]all of the paper that came in and out of the station.
[2439]Mr. Goldsmith. Are you saying that there was no routine
[2440]procedure established for who was to review the take from the
[2441]Cuban telephone surveillance operations?
[2443]. Mr. Shaw. I am saying that, when I got there, the case
[2444]officers in Cuban Ops saw this stuff that was routed around
[2445]through the station and that persisted during the time that
[2446]I was there.
[2448]Mr. Goldsmith. I am not sure that the answer --
[2450]Mr. Shaw. How that was routed, I am not sure.
[2452]Mr. Goldsmith. pid you customarily see every conversa-
[2453]tion that came in?
[2455]Mr. Shaw. I doubt it. I doubt .it.
[2457]Mr. Goldsmith. Who would have seen the conversation and
[2458]decided that it was not important enough to merit your atten-
[2461]Mr. Shaw. I do not know.
[2463]Mr. Goldsmith. Who brought in the take from these opera-
[2464]tions to the. station? |
[2466]Mr. Shaw. I do not know that either, but it was my
[2468]or summary that came in, would then? Allen White or Winn Scott?
[2472]- . tunderstanding that non-official cover. people on the outside
[2474]: | picked up. the tapes -- don't consider this gospel, but this
[2476]tis my understanding -- picked up tapes from the various listen-
[2478]@ 4 | ing posts, some of which had been processed by people in the |
[2479]7 listening post; some of which had not. But they, in turn,
[2480]F j either processed those tapes or took them to people to continue
[2481]g 5 | the processing in case they had a foreign language in them, or :
[2483]s 3 | gomething,. and then turn them over to the station.
[2484]; 3 | Somebody went ‘out from the station, probably with a little
[2485]: 19 attache case or something, and picked up takes again. It is |
[2486]: n | my understanding that the person primarily involved in that |
[2487]= { . |
[2488]= m | was Ann Goodpasture, but I do not. know for sure. :
[2489]@ z 13 | Mr. Goldsmith. Who was the first person that the trans- !
[2490]= ta cripts would go to upon their arrival at the Embassy? |
[2491]= 13 | Mr. Shaw. I rather suspect Winn Scott, because I remeber
[2492]z 16 great numbers of those white pades that came across our desk. |
[2493]= iT had P numbers written on them in black ink by Winn Scott. |
[2495]. ;
[2497]E a | Mr; Goldsmith. Do you know how many lines were being
[2498]= |
[2499]: 19 | tapped at the Cuban consulatevand Embassy?
[2500]: 20 | 7 Mr. Shaw. I do not know. |
[2501]a 7 Mr. Goldsmith. You reviewéd the transcripts and summaries
[2502]| = Ee? 2 of these conversations for two years and you have no idea how |
[2503]33 ! many lines were tapped? |
[2505]24 | - Mr. Shaw. No. This was fifteen years ago. TI can give
[2507]273 | you a guess.
[2509]| Sroae!
[2510]r=Rs 3&5 TING Con
[2512]i
[2514]HW 50955 Docla:32277214 Page 25
[2516]HW 50955
[2518]-
[2519]by
[2521]we
[2523]wo
[2527]“4 =
[2529]a
[2533]a :
[2535]wi ce)
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[2609]s 29
[2610]21
[2612]Wo
[2613]tee
[2615]Docld:
[2617]322977214 Page 26 ALSERSON REPOR
[2619]PR 5,
[2623]Mr. Goldsmith. Sure. A best guess would be helpful.
[2625]Mr. Shaw. I would guess three or four lines. The primar
[2627]interest was in the Soviets. You had far more converage.
[2628]That is a guess.
[2630]Mr. Goldsmith. Understood.
[2632]Mr. Shaw. I would guess, off-hand, two lines in the
[2633]Embassy, one line in the consulate.
[2635]Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know if the Cuban consul's telephone
[2636]was tapped?
[2638]Mr. Shaw. If the consulate line was tapped --
[2640]“Mr.-Goldsmith. It would have been his?
[2642]Mr. Shaw. Probably it would have been his, but they. may
[2643]have had a direct line in there. I do not know.
[2645]Mr. Goldsmith. How would a telephone tap actually work?
[2646]I am talking now about the actual mechanics of the tap.
[2648]Mr. Shaw. I do not know. ‘I never had anything do do
[2649]with them. I know they used to take some of their taps at
[2650]what. they call the junction boxes. Thesexwould be the boxes
[2651]out in the street where lines came in to be fed into this
[2652]central -- I would rather suspect that the joint operations
[2653]were mostly done at the central, since the Mexican government
[2654]simply could have issued orders, you will tap such and such a
[2655]phone.
[2657]Mr. Goldsmith. My question is oriented towards the
[2659]following. Once a tap has been placed on a line, would that
[2661]_ SEGR
[2663]COMPANY
[2665]4
[2667]|
[2671]i
[2672]|
[2673]|
[2674]|
[2675]|
[2676]|
[2677]|
[2678]ne
[2682]mean that. all calls, ingoing or outgoing, on that phone would
[2684]be picked Ups so long as the tap is in effect? !
[2688]4 Mr. Shaw. So long as it is in effect, yes. Whether those
[2689]| appear in the transcripts. is another matter. If it |
[2690]|
[2691]Pe) | i
[2692]A * || was like a wrong number, or somebody saying pick up three rolls
[2693].
[2694]2 + ana bring them home for lunch, probably it would not appear on ;
[2695]& ye transcript. j
[2697]= H . . . {
[2698]= 84 Mc. Goldsmith. Who would make that decision?
[2699]zl | | | |
[2700]3 . _Mr. Shaw. Whoever transcribed the tapes. i
[2701]a |
[2702]z ie | Mr. Goldsmith. How much time would pass from the moment |
[2703]= 11 | that a call came in until the transcription passed across your |
[2704]zl |
[2705]= 12 | aesk? |
[2706]go |
[2707]Be =z 14 Mr. Shaw. I cannot answer your question with any preci- |
[2708]= i |
[2709]2 . .
[2710]= 14 4 sion, There was a system in the Embassy whereby if you had |
[2711]z i '
[2712]= 4
[2713]ba tsa fast-breaking situation, or something like that, you could -~
[2714]o iH i
[2715]= 4 i
[2716]= 14 | I sure would like to get the transeripts of.such and such a
[2717]so 7 |
[2718]3 7 | ane fast, and that information would be processed and funneled
[2719]a HI ; i
[2720]= 18 | back in to the Embassy or into the station on a priority
[2721]s i
[2722]= 1? | basis. |
[2723]e too |
[2724]Ss 20) I would guess, offhand, that it ran -- again, this is a
[2725]| | |
[2726]vex 7?! | guess -- five, six, seven days.
[2727]SE | i
[2728]ap va 32 ; Mr. Goldsmith. What about the high priority cases?
[2729]| .
[2730]i
[2732]ed
[2733]us
[2735]Mr. Shaw. Sometimes you can get that pretty fast.
[2737]Mr. Goldsmith. Within a day?
[2739]iN)
[2742]Mr. Shaw. Yes. We could have somebody looking for a
[2744]SECRET
[2746]HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 27  ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY
[2748]t
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[2799]= 22
[2800]aN
[2801]23
[2802]od
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[2805]HY 50955 DociId:
[2807]we
[2809]ah
[2811]te
[2813]D2!
[2817]i
[2818]i
[2820]i
[2822]| certain call, and I do not recall ever doing that. But it
[2823]| was my understanding that if you expected some situation, that |
[2824]you could levy a requirement -- for example, let me give you |
[2825]a for instance here. |
[2826]Let us suppose that we, the station, someone in the sta-
[2828]tion was going to make a recruitment pitch to a Soviet officer,
[2830]It would have been possible for the station to have organized
[2832]case the guy called up and said, let me tell you the discus-
[2835]i
[2836]I
[2837]|
[2839]|
[2840]I
[2841]things so that there was a live body and not just a machine |
[2842]|
[2843]|
[2844]|
[2845]sion I just had, or something like that.
[2847]|
[2848]|
[2849]| hanging over phone calls coming in to the Soviet Embassy in
[2850]|
[2851]i
[2852]|
[2855]This would be a little far-fetched, because a Soviet
[2857]would not be likely to handle it by phone. But in a case
[2859]yourself, being. on top of the situation -- it would not apply
[2862]! wee
[2864]t
[2865]|
[2866]where you are looking for something fast-breaking-to protect |
[2867]|
[2868]| |
[2869]much to Mexico, but if you had a revolutionary situation
[2870]' breaking out someplace, surely there is a possibility of
[2871]getting information very quickly off any given line..
[2872]Mr. Goldsmith. Would the transcripts: be reviewed. by .
[2873]; you in chronological order?
[2874]Mr. Shaw. I got them in batches and I would review them
[2875]just in the otder in which they came. I might have shuffled |
[2877]i them in chronological order, yes. Quite often they came in
[2879]four or five or six pages stapled together.
[2882]| Mr. Goldsmith. Would they tend to come in chrolological |:
[2883]f
[2885]SEGRE 7
[2887]ALDEZRSON REPORTING COMPARY
[2889]32277214 Page 28 a
[2892]Oar
[2894]LF
[2898]HY 50955
[2904]2007% (702) S5n-2365
[2906]REPORTERS RUELDENG, WASETHGTON, D.C.
[2910]s
[2912]joa yru STREET,
[2914]7
[2916]oN
[2918]Docld: 32277214 Page 29
[2920]be ta my
[2922]Lv iy
[2926]Me
[2929]order so you read a transcript from the 15th before the 16th?
[2930]| Mr. Shaw. Generally yes, right.
[2931]| Mr. Goldsmith. What happened to the transcripts after
[2932]they were reviewed by you?
[2933]Mr. Shaw. They were usually routed. They had a routing
[2935]sheet on it, and they woudd go on to somewhere else. Where
[2937]they went, I do not know. Sometimes we would mark them for
[2939]files. Of course, if there were a transcript. in there that |
[2941]| had specific information on somebody that we were interested
[2942]| in, we would mark a copy for the files and it would go into
[2943]| enat person's == either their P-file, which was their personnel
[2945]4
[2947]i
[2948]i
[2949]i
[2950]i
[2951]i
[2952]|
[2953]|
[2955]i
[2956]| file, or into any operational self-file that would we make,
[2959]building up background information on a person, the little
[2961]things like whether an officer's wife was unhappy with the maid
[2965]i
[2966]i
[2967]t
[2969]tor with Living conditions or the cost or what. have you of the
[2971]i
[2972]y
[2973]|
[2974]|
[2975]i , , as ,
[2976]| drugstore - These little bits and pieces were built up and
[2977]jimese came from transcripts.
[2979]Mr. Goldsmith. Would these transcripts eventually sgqet
[2981]1
[2983]t
[2985]sent to headquarters?
[2986]. 1
[2988]Mr. Shaw. I do not know. I will say that it was unlikely!
[2990]|
[2992]| :
[2993]i that Winn Scott ever threw anything away. It was somewhere,
[2995]i :
[2996]| probably, in the file room.
[2997]i i
[2998]| Mr. Goldsmith. What about the tapes? What would happen |
[2999]| i
[3001]with the tapes after a conversation had been transcribed?
[3003]i
[3004]|
[3005]i Mr. Shaw. Again, you are getting into an area where I
[3007]ALOEASON REPORTING COME AA?
[3010]never had any personal experience. It is my understanding
[3012]that tapes were erased and reused, and they were used over
[3014]coed
[3016]. . .
[3017]and over again. Otherwise, we would have ended up with a room .
[3021]$e
[3023]full of tapes and there really was no reason to keep them.
[3025]in
[3027]Now, I would also assume that if there was something
[3028]{ .
[3030]important on a tape that they might. have held it. I do not
[3032]The transcript usually sufficed as the record.
[3034]ce)
[3036]oe. I do not recall ever saying, hold that tape for me. i
[3037]|
[3038]1
[3040]3 . Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know if, at the time of the assassina-
[3041]| tion, that the station had a tape recording of Lee Harvey
[3043]Oswald's voice?
[3045]| Mr. Shaw. No, I do not know if they did. I think they
[3046]4
[3048]did not. It was my understanding that what they had was a
[3050]| dna vt STREET, S.4. REPORTERS RUTEDING, VASEENCTON, DLC. 20024 (202) Shu-2345
[3052]transcript of some guy calling, again, it is my understanding. |
[3053]i
[3055]Be
[3057]I believe he called the Soviet Embassy from the Cuban Embassy,
[3059]or the Cubans called the Soviet Embassy, I am not sure. But
[3061]as far as having the tape with Oswald's voice on it, I seriously
[3063]doubt it.
[3065](Discussion off the record.)
[3067]3
[3069]i
[3070]'
[3071]'
[3072]i
[3073]i
[3074]i
[3075]I
[3077]i
[3081]Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to show you now what was
[3083]ie)
[3084]=)
[3086]marked here as CIA No. 197 and, for purposes of the record
[3088]and for your information, the Agency has provided us with its
[3090]EX 4
[3091]4
[3092]/X
[3093]ire)
[3096]ra
[3097]Ces)
[3099]documents. Each page has been assigned a number. The reason |
[3101]ae z4 i it has been assigned a number is so that the Agency can make
[3103]| |
[3104], sure that everything given to the Committee is returned. For |
[3105]i
[3107]eure!
[3109]=5 ware
[3110]RZSORTING comeeny
[3112]HW 50955 DocId:32277214 Page 30 Bk
[3115]4
[3116]AI
[3118]i
[3120](reference purposes, we simply use those numbers for a witness
[3122]4 “when we are going through this pile of materials. :
[3123]3 Now T would like you to take a look at CIA No. 197, the |
[3124]4 | second paragraph. :
[3125]% 7 (Pause) |
[3126]: 7 Mr. Shaw. Okay. |
[3127]= 1 | : Mr. Goldsmith. The second paragraph indicates that the
[3128]F 3 | seacton is unable to compare the voices, as the. first tape was
[3129]; ; jerased prior to the receipt of the. second call.
[3130]: 19 | Mr. Shaw. Yes.
[3131]i
[3132]7 Mr. Goldsmith. Does that suggest to you that at least
[3134]sone tape was still in existence on November 23rd, the date
[3136]ire
[3138]‘|
[3140]i
[3142]|
[3144]7 that this cable was sent? Otherwise, the second paragraph would
[3146]4
[3148]i
[3149]jhave said the tapes had been erased, ‘routinely, whatever.
[3151]re
[3153]i
[3155]Mr. Shaw. It could indicate that. It does not definitely
[3157]REPORTERS BUCLDING, GASETMETON,
[3159]state that. That is an interpretation, certainly.
[3161]'
[3163]aR,
[3165]Mr. Goldsmith. Does that refresh your memory as to whether
[3168]“4
[3170]z ;q jer not there was a taping system? :
[3173]= 15 ii Mr. Shaw. I do not have anything in writing. This did.
[3174]= H
[3175]= 39 snot refresh my memory at all. This probably would have been
[3176]ed - ik . :
[3178]yconsidered. Was this after the assassination?
[3180]4 Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.
[3183]. 4 %
[3184]j .
[3186]4304 Mr. Shaw. No, I do not think it necessarily indicates,
[3188]+, ‘but I am surprised that it does not say that they were both
[3190]7a idestroyed, or both erased.
[3192]Be SEDaL
[3194]ALDESSON REZORTING COMPAMY
[3196]‘HW 50955 Docld: 32277214 Page 31
[3198]to
[3201]= 5
[3202]= 2
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[3204]'
[3205]2 :
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[3218]a
[3219]- rial
[3220]= iN
[3221]z tt
[3222]= nd
[3223]a
[3224]=.
[3230]REPORTERS BUTEDING,
[3231]oO
[3233]Ju,
[3235]8
[3236]f
[3238]a
[3239]2
[3240]5
[3241]= 13
[3243]oc
[3244]oS
[3245]“
[3247]HW 50955 Docld
[3249]1a2277214 Page 32
[3251]ge saa |
[3252]ce st
[3255]| Mr. Goldsmith. Please take a look at CIA 208.
[3257]Mr. Shaw. 208. .
[3259]Mr. Goldsmith. And read paragraph number four. Read it
[3260]| to yourself, please.
[3262]| (Pause)
[3264]Mr. Shaw. Yes.
[3266]Mr. Goldsmith. According to paragraph number four, it
[3268]| indicates that it seems a voice comparison of some kind was.
[3270]| made.
[3272]Mr. Shaw. Yes, ox it could well be that this guy, Fine-
[3275]Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Tarasoff£?
[3277]|
[3278]i Mr. Shaw. Remembered the poor Russian of the first tape
[3279]i , . :
[3281]{ : . .
[3282]jand the poor Russian of the second tape and figured that it
[3284]was the same guy.
[3286]Mr. Goldsmith. How long were tapes normally retained
[3288]4
[3289]| Prior to being erased?
[3291]a very productive tape, you probably would not keep it very
[3292]llong, once you transcribed it.
[3294](Pause)
[3296]CIA 239.
[3297]Mr. Shaw. I have read it.
[3298]Mr. Goldsmith. According to that, it indicates that the
[3300]SECRET
[3302]ALDSSSUN REPORTING COME AunY
[3304]Mr. Shaw. I have no idea. It would seem to me if you had
[3306]Mr. Goldsmith. -I would like you to read the CS comment on
[3310]REPORTERS BUOTEDTNG, CAST TC
[3312]h, eo
[3313]Whase
[3314]te
[3316]1
[3317]w
[3320]SP ay WAL
[3321]Thy es
[3323]SEUN:
[3325]‘normal time laq would be two weeks. In other words, the tapes
[3327]2 | would normally be retained for a two-week period.
[3329]2 | Mr. Shaw. That is what it seems to say, yes.
[3331]Mr. Goldsmith. Is that consistent with your memory now,
[3333]-
[3335]s jat. the time?
[3336]i }
[3337]t
[3338]a4 0 Mr. Shaw.. No, I do not have any idea. I was not involved:
[3339]7 | in tape pick-ups or tape erasures.
[3341]Mr. Goldsmith. The Oswald telephone calls, as we will see)
[3345]later on, came in within approximately four days of each other,
[3347]‘ON, DLC. 2002" (202) 554-2445
[3349]r
[3352]4
[3353]g |iE, as CIA 239 indicates, the tapes were normally retained for
[3354]|
[3355]| two weeks prior to being routinely erased. Does that. suggest
[3356]ito you that the Oswald. tape was, for some reason, treated in
[3358]1
[3360]i say September 27th. By the time the second call came in, the
[3362]1
[3364]|
[3367]. . .
[3369]1g yan unusual manner, because either the first call came in, let's
[3371]|
[3373]i
[3375]t
[3377]|
[3379]f
[3381]| first tape had already. been erased...
[3383]Mc, Shaw..-No,° it: does not suggest that to me. -= what is this : nun
[3385]iM,
[3387]5
[3389]ber here .~--becausetthismessage came out 9 December 63. What it
[3391]| suggests to me is that, subsequent to. the assassination, is
[3393]pig tH STRELY,
[3395]HI
[3398]i
[3400]is | that the station was to hold tapes for a minimum of two weeks.
[3401]a : .
[3402]Mr. Goldsmith. Please read into the record what 239 says.
[3404]Mr. Shaw. CS comment:.:station to erase routine tapes,
[3406]|: goviet Embassy, keeping normal two week lag.
[3408]Mr. Goldsmith. Does that suggest to you that the normal
[3410]lag would not be two weeks?
[3412]yea
[3413]tan
[3415]Mr. Shaw. This was not addressed to me.
[3417]ALOERSON RE pu comeuter
[3419]rive
[3420]Ws
[3422]SE
[3424]wr 1
[3426]re
[3427]wi.
[3428]Pie
[3432]x .
[3437]Mr. Goldsmith. I understand that.
[3439]i
[3440]|
[3442]| :
[3443]@ | Mr. Shaw. There is no reason for me to read this anymore
[3444]i
[3445]i . .
[3446]| than there is reason for you to read that. ~The words stand
[3450]by themselves.
[3452]|
[3453]|
[3455]£ 5 | Mr. Goldsmith. That is right, and you have just given an |
[3456]a
[3457]5 z | interpretation of those words, suggesting that that the mean~ |
[3458]g ; |ing is prospective in intent. In other words, after December |
[3459]= 21% 1963, the timelag for retention of tapes prior to erasure |
[3460]~ $ | would be two weeks. |
[3461].
[3463]: 1g | Mr. Shaw. I think it could read that, yes. I do not knew
[3464]S ; |
[3466]g 7 what went on between Winn and the station as far as periods
[3467]2 7 |for keeping these, but. I think what you are trying ‘to do is et
[3468]© : a ime into.a situation of pointing out that. the station was remiss.
[3469]3 ha [an destroying tapes, and I do not believe that is the case. |
[3470]: s/f Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to indicate to you, and also |
[3471]: iz i for the record, that what I am trying to do here is go over |
[3472]= tt | questions that are raised by the documents and the Committee :
[3473]S 13 [has no predisposition, one way or the other, to reach any |
[3474]2 19 [particular conclusions !
[3475]é 20 | The truth is that. unless these questions are asked of |
[3477]ar you, both the agancy and the Committee will be criticized by
[3478]Ee i |
[3479]aI
[3481]e #27 22 ipeople in the future who review these documents and say, why
[3482]BN
[3484]i
[3486]23 iwere not. these questions asked of you. |
[3488]|
[3490]@ qe Mr. Shaw. 2 can understand why you are asking the ques-
[3491]i
[3493]itions. I am simply not. in a position to tell you, from memory
[3495]7
[3497]. nes SECRET
[3499]: SH 220RT COME AREY
[3500]HW 450955 DocId: 32277214 Page 34
[3504]rant
[3506]SEU:
[3508]ae y
[3512]| or anything else what the normal station procedure was regard-
[3514]ing retention of tapes, although, as I did indicate earlier,
[3516]| ; | |
[3517]34] that the tapes were routinely erased and used over again. As |.
[3519]fee the time lag, you know as much about it, and probably
[3521]1
[3523]|
[3525]: 7 more than I do, by now.
[3526]: 7 Mr. Goldsmith. What responsibility, if any, did you have |
[3527]g 7 | with regara to the photo-surveillance operation against the
[3528]z | cuban Embassy and consulate?
[3529]“ | Mr. Shaw. I had no responsibility for that operation
[3530]: fo | until after. Ivreassuméd the Cuban Ops section which would have |
[3531]: |, [been the day Phillips left for Mexico, probably a year or
[3532]2 | two down the road. I do know, however, that the operation --
[3533]- i . i
[3534]x ) 2 rz H there was a Cuban photo, or a photo operation against the
[3535]. = ~ a |
[3536]2 4 | Cuban Embassy. |
[3537]Pot i . I
[3538]E is | I do not remember why, but I think that observation was
[3539]: 1, | not active in the period when Oswald was in Mexico. If I |
[3540]= 1; | remember correctly, the man, to the best of my knowledge who ;
[3541]: 5 handled that, who was actually the inside case officer, if
[3542]: 2 38 will, was the little guy who was snapping the pictures,
[3543]= H
[3544]é 0 | was a fellow by the name of Robert Zambarnadi, and I believe
[3545]on phe is retired and living in Mexico. I do not know. |
[3546]Eos
[3547]5
[3549]Mr. Goldsmith. Who was the station case officer responsible
[3551]i
[3553]4
[3555]rN
[3557]t
[3559]| for running the photo-surveillance operation against. the
[3561]2
[3562]43
[3564]| Cubans?
[3566]2
[3567]as,
[3569]Mr. Shaw. As far as I know, it was Robert. Zambarnardi, i
[3571]_SEGRET
[3573]INS COMB ane
[3575]We
[3576]an
[3578]HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 35 ae
[3580]HW 50955
[3582]et
[3584]technically qualified man.
[3586]RO
[3588]43
[3590]Mr. Goldsmith.
[3592]Fos
[3594]Mr. Shaw.
[3598]i, do not know.
[3600]654-2345
[3602]A
[3603]if
[3605]a .
[3609]x 2!
[3611]- * 4
[3613]™~N . q
[3615]uF | who was that? -
[3617]a Al
[3619]- H
[3621]= 10 | new officer who just arrived,
[3623]BOL iwas, but he came in and talked to so and so,
[3624]3 ;
[3626]*. 12 4 thing.
[3628]g i
[3630]a i234
[3632]= i
[3634]= 4 i Mr. Goldsmith.
[3636]& |
[3638]z is ' pictures of the Cuban consulate and zmbassy?
[3639]z i
[3641]* aan Mr. Shaw.
[3643].
[3645]an yone photo base. At times,
[3647]= 8 the Embassy was. If I may draw you
[3648]st
[3650]— a |
[3652]5 "ene block, the compound block.
[3654]= yO
[3656]= 2)
[3658]big building up here,
[3660]where.
[3662]awant to get visas would routinely appear here and they would
[3664]4
[3665]HI
[3667]i
[3668]Ht
[3669]i
[3670]a
[3671]4
[3674]|
[3675]ALOEES
[3677]Docld:32277214 Page 36
[3679]i who was the technical officer of the station.
[3681]There was no one overseeing him?
[3682]I do not believe so, but maybe Dave was. I
[3684]We used to get batches of pictures.
[3686]4 i things: that: I would do with the agent that I mentioned earlier
[3688]jyes that I handled-was. take batches of these pictures to him
[3690]| ana sit down with him and say, did you ever see this guy, or
[3692]And he'd*“say, that's a courier, or that's the 1
[3694]i We used to try to identify people with those pictures.
[3696]How many photo bases were there taking
[3698]To the best of my knowledge,
[3700]the consulate was
[3702]and there was
[3703]I do not remeniber whether it
[3705]This was the consulate,
[3707]a
[3708]oe
[3709]wae,
[3711]wins
[3713]He was a
[3715]One of the
[3717]or I do not know who this guy
[3719]that sort of
[3721]there was only!
[3722]not covered and
[3723]a picture,
[3725]this would be
[3727]The Cuban Embassy was the
[3729]a little gatehouse down
[3730]was in or out.
[3731]People who would
[3733]on the corner.
[3735]isend them down the street and they would go into the. consulate.
[3737]Sometimes they knew where they were going and they came in here,
[3739]SEER
[3741]EA Ei.
[3745]or they asked a cab, take me to the Cuban consulate, they
[3749]4
[3750]|wouta probably be delivered here.
[3751]i
[3753]a
[3755]This is a block, a city block. The house from which the
[3757]a
[3759]@ 4 | photographs were taken is over here on this corner. The
[3760]= 2 photographs were taken long distance down here and here. This |
[3761]: 6 ves not always covered. This was considered more important,
[3762]g y | becuse it was routine -- either there was a lot of routine :
[3763]& 4 | visa stuff here.
[3765]r Later on,- subsequent -- gosh, it must have been a year
[3766]: ra | later. do not remember just when -- we developed a system,
[3768]1+ 10x somebody up here in-the states who developed a system
[3769]| .
[3771]‘whereby the camera would be triggered automatically. That is
[3773]| movement -- sort of Like a photo-electric cell or something --
[3775](movement up here in the picture that the camera was to cover
[3777]would cause a series of photos to be taken, maybe four or
[3779]REPORTELS RUTLDENG,- HASTELUCTON,
[3782]five, zap, zap, zap, something like that.
[3784]i
[3785]|
[3786]|
[3788]2.
[3790]an ir But I believe that, at the time Oswald was in Mexico city,
[3791]: 14 /not only was this down for some reason and not functioning, |
[3792]: a but I believe, had it been functioning, that it would have !
[3793]é 7 | been individual picture snapping. I do not think that auto®
[3795]| i
[3796]| matic equipment was in Mexico at that time. I could be |
[3797]|
[3798]if
[3800]‘4
[3802]a
[3804]j
[3805]AYN
[3807]Me 22 wrong.
[3808]| ao |
[3809]: Mr. Goldsmith. I am not going to be able to introduce
[3810].
[3812]jas diagram into the record, so I am just going to describe
[3814]'it as best as I can.
[3816]5
[3817]I
[3818]3
[3819]3
[3820]4
[3822]Be SECRET
[3824]ALZTESSON BEZORTING COMePGAY
[3826]HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 37
[3828]Gi
[3831]SEuAE i
[3833]. ge’
[3837]You indicated that on one block, on one corner of that
[3841]block .was a consulate building for the Cubans. The other side
[3843]of the block was the Embassy building.
[3845]as
[3847],
[3849]|
[3851]4
[3853]i i
[3855]@ 4 | Across the street was the photo base. |
[3857]= 5 Mr. Shaw. ‘his was all wall. This was a compound. |
[3858]3 é jpxcuse me, if I may interject. There was another building back.
[3859]: 7 [pee that had a theatre downstairs and had offices upstairs. |
[3860]x . | Mr. Goldsmith. Was that within the compound also?
[3861]; 3 |i - Mx. Shaw. Yes. |
[3862]a
[3864]‘Mr. Goldsmith. ‘Three buildings within the Cuban compound?!
[3866]SHTMCTON ,
[3869]|
[3870]lid Mr. Shaw. Yes.
[3872]ta
[3873]te
[3875]-.Mx. Goldsmith....The photo ‘base was located across the
[3877]19 i gtreet<-. T€ was closer to the consulate than it was to the
[3879]RULLDTRG,
[3881]entrance of the Embassy?
[3885]Mr. Shaw. That is correct.
[3887]REPORTERS
[3889]Mr. Goldsmith. From the diagram that you drew, it would
[3893]S.W,
[3896]“4
[3898]‘ seem that the location of the camera was. closer to the consulate
[3900]i
[3902]= ta i than it was to the Embassy entrance, yet you also indicated
[3903]a
[3904]= 9) that most of the people of interest would have been entering
[3905]. ia
[3906]= 20 | the Embassy, not the consulate? ee an
[3907]i
[3908]cee 2! Mr, Shaw. That. is correct”
[3909]Boe i . i
[3910]Me/ 22 Mr. Goldsmith. Was not the placement of that camera in |
[3912]!an inappropriate position?
[3914]Se -
[3915]A
[3917]3
[3919]2 Mr. Shaw. I imagine that camera was placed wherever we
[3921]23 , could get it. Getting real straight across from one, of those
[3923]SECRET
[3925]1 REPORTING COMPAR
[3928]r
[3929]Ob
[3930]! H
[3931]ra
[3932]Zz
[3934]HY 50955 DocId:32277214 Page 36
[3936]SEGAL | 1-38
[3938]ay
[3940]embassies was. very difficult.
[3942]| :
[3943]: |
[3944]|
[3946]2
[3948]I know, had we had our druthers, we would have placed
[3950]i
[3953]that camera closer up here and the Soviet Embassy had a similar
[3955]i
[3956]t
[3958]Le)
[3960]be
[3962]sort of situation, a camera over here and one down here. I
[3964]= 3 | believe theicloser the better, yes.
[3965]; 5 Mr. Goldsmith. How many photo bases were there operating |
[3966]2 7 [against the Soviet compound, without drawing a diagram? |
[3967]& | Mr. Shaw. I do not know, but I think there must have
[3969]3 3 | been two or three. | |
[3970]. "9 | Mr. Goldsmith. Are you sure you were not the case officer!
[3972]g |, | overseeing the surveillance operation against the Cubans? |
[3973]a _ :
[3974]= | Mr. Shaw. TI certainly am.
[3975]@ e 1 | Mr. Goldsmith. So Mr. Zambernardi was not working under |
[3976]5 1 | you? | |
[3977]a
[3978]: al Mr. Shaw. I did not consider him working under me, at
[3979]O° ik
[3980]z g | that time. Later on, when he was replaced and I am not sure |
[3981]. i {
[3982]. tr | whether Dave Phillips was there or not, I did move into this
[3983]-
[3984]E 1a | operation. I am trying to think of the cryptonym for the
[3985]= | |
[3986]= 19 | operation. I cannot recall. |
[3987]: 0 And the chap who then handled it was Zambernardi's |
[3988]——- 2H | replacement, I think his name was Humphrey. ‘That was the |
[3989]Aoss i i
[3991]surname. Lou Humphrey, I think. I am not sure.
[3993]eS |
[3995]oN :
[4002]|
[4004]| Mr. Goldsmith. What was the purpose of the photo~surveil-
[4006]i
[4007]) ig | lance operation?
[4009]|
[4011]|
[4013]Mr. Shaw. Primarily to identify people in touch with the |
[4015]ft . i
[4016]a . ‘
[4018]gene
[4020]SEASON REPORTING COMPAS
[4021]HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 39 ALS ER SON ——s
[4023]Sec
[4026]Be
[4027]LS Nec
[4029]7
[4030]foreign embassy.
[4031]4
[4032]HT
[4034]Mr. Goldsmith. Would everyone's picture be taken?
[4038]| Mr. Shaw. No, no way. |
[4039]e 4 | Mr. Goldsmith. Whose picture would be taken? |
[4040],
[4041]E 5 Mr. Shaw. For example, that you would normally in an |
[4042]2 !
[4043]: ¢ | opexation like this be limited by time available for the |
[4044]g 7 | Photographer. You would be limited by daylight. You would |
[4045]s : | not photograph a milkman, or a mailman or somebody who would
[4047]3 3 | be there repeatedly. You would not photograph a staffer of
[4048]a i |
[4050]'¢ ji the Embassy if once you knew who he was, unless he was walking
[4051]i!
[4052]i
[4054]“on “with somebody.
[4056]VASHTHCTON ,
[4058]iz il You would not photograph a regular visitor to the Embassy,
[4060]13 \se you knew who he was.
[4062]i Mr. Goldsmith. Would you photograph all foreigners?
[4064]18 : Mr. Shaw. I do not know. I would have to say the answer
[4066]REPORTERS BUTED ONG,
[4068]: jis no. I never photographed any of them. Do you mean would
[4072]S
[4075]|
[4076]i foreigners be photographed? I would say, given the
[4078]jtimitations that I have enumerated, namely how long a person
[4080]STRELE ,
[4082]‘can sit there and watch, and they have to take a break now
[4084]gon UTH
[4086]lana then, daylight, Sundays .. they probably did not photograph:
[4088]DSS :
[4089]OSE . .
[4090]e va’ 2 lable down periods in this sort of operation. 4
[4091]af ON ;
[4093]t .
[4095]34
[4097]i
[4099]= 11 because there is little activity. I am sure there were consider-
[4100]“ No, I would say all foreigners were not photographed.
[4101]i
[4103]+ Ideally, you would like to have a picture of anybody who went
[4105]vin and out of there, surely.
[4107]HW 50955 Docld: 32277214 Page 40
[4109]DLUAZ:
[4114]re
[4116]Mr. Goldsmith. I understand that.
[4120]My question is, while surveillance base was in operation,
[4122]|
[4124]|
[4126]i
[4128]would a primary purpose of it be to take pictures of foreigners?
[4133]| Mr. Shaw. 1... Yes. That would have been a primary
[4135]|
[4136]2 3 | Purpose. Not necessarily foreiaqners, but people you do not :
[4137]: , | Feconize. Foreigners or Mexicans; Mexicans are foreigners |
[4138]|
[4139]3 ‘7 | to us, of course. |
[4140]S a4 Another thing they did, by the way, was they tried to
[4141]: 3 | photograph the license plates of automobiles that came to these!
[4142]a i
[4143]= | embassies. |
[4144]S 4 .
[4145]2 ry Mr. Goldsmith. During what hours were these: photo bases |
[4146]= i : H
[4147]é “yt in operation? :
[4148]@ z 13 | Mr. Shaw. I do not know. I would say most likely during !
[4149]= i
[4150]2 ‘ ipusiness hours and proper daylight conditions, when the |
[4151]: 1s | photogeaphes was available to do the job. |
[4152]S i
[4153]= 14 Mr. Goldsmith. Would you read back that answer? :
[4154]= in| The Reporter: “Question: "During what hours were these |
[4155]E 13 jpnoto bases in operation?" ; !
[4156]n : . . i
[4157]: a Answer: "I do not know. I would say most Likely during |
[4158]é 40 [business hours and proper daylight conditions, when the a
[4159]_ 31 | photographer was available to do the job." |
[4161]Mr. Goldsmith. As a matter of routine, when would
[4163]i photographers have been available to do the job? .
[4165]Mr. Shaw. I do not know. I was not involved in these
[4167]e *
[4170]oe
[4172]joperations:” I used to see quite a bit of coverage.
[4174]SECRET
[4176]y ALSES SESORTING COWS ane
[4177]HY 50955 Docld: 32277214 Page 41
[4179]to
[4181]se
[4183]vet
[4184]al 3
[4185]2.
[4186]i
[4187]a Z
[4188]wt 3
[4189]-
[4190]= a
[4191]aa 7
[4192]we
[4193]os 3
[4194]16
[4196]Sony
[4197]ta
[4198]a
[4199]s
[4208]= 13
[4210]2 3,
[4212]3S
[4213]wh 17
[4214]Se. 18
[4215]a
[4216]= 1
[4218]e
[4222]= 29
[4224]HW 50955 DocId:
[4226]one
[4228]rat
[4229]Ts
[4231]Hy
[4233]yg go ee S
[4234]SEA: 4
[4237]Mx. Goldsmith. What were your primary responsibilities
[4239]when you were down there? You were not involved in the photo-
[4241]surveillance operation; you were not involved =~ excuse me
[4243]for interrupting you.
[4245]Mr. Shaw. Go ahead,
[4247]Mr. Goldsmith. You were not involved in the photo-
[4249]surveillance operation and you were not involved in the wire
[4251]tap operation, so, MY - question is, what was your primary
[4253]responsibility?
[4255]Mr. Shaw.. My primary responsibility was to try to
[4256]| effect penetrations of the Cuban government. I spent a good
[4258]bit of time with Cubans of the non-Castro persuasion, attempt-
[4260]ing to identify Cubans of the Castro persuasion that we might
[4261]go after.
[4262]By "go after," I mean attempt to recruit.
[4264]I spent a lot of time collecting information from the
[4266].> |Cuban asset on the outside.to process into the intelligence
[4268]reports on what was happening in Cuba.
[4270]We had a system set. up in Mexico City under an agent
[4271]‘called AMSATE who was the representative of the, exile commun-
[4272]ity. He would ae meet, hep, debrief, Cubans who were
[4273]arriving constantly from Cuba on the way to the United States
[4274]or to Mexico or to somewhere else in the world, people who.
[4276]were exiting Cuba.
[4278]Mexico did not break relations with Cuba as did the other)
[4281]SEURL eae
[4283]tap >
[4285]i countries of the Hemisphere. The OAS recommended that;
[4287]i
[4288]» i Mexico did not do it.
[4289]2 |
[4290]| Se, when the refugee flow dried up in Florida, we probably|
[4291]4 had one of the most productive operations there in Mexico !
[4292]$ 5 city reqarding information on what was going on in Cuba. |
[4293]: . | . I spent a lot of time with AMSAIL on that. :
[4294]3 ‘| “Mr. Goldsmith. Did. you ever try to recruit Eusbio Ascue? |
[4295]z 3 Mr. Shaw. His name is Eusbio Ascue. |
[4296]‘ 3 | Mr. Goldsmith. Yes. .
[4297]: tg ! Mr. Shaw. A-s-c-u-e. Fist name, E-u-s-b-i-o. |
[4298]c ' | . = did not try to recruit Ascue. That may have been |
[4299]2 9 jateenptes prior to my arrival, in which the man who would know |
[4300]. ey . . j
[4301]@ 2 4 about it, if it had been attempted, would be Mr~ Thomas |
[4302]: Ma | mazelit. ; . | | :
[4303]rg i - .
[4304]z \ Mr. Goldsmith. What about Teresa Proenza? f
[4305]_ 7 Mr. Shaw. No, I never made.any attempt to recruit |
[4306]= 7 Ineresa Proenza?
[4307]E 1a Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know if anyone ever did? ; |
[4308]= t
[4309]° 7 ~ Mr. Shaw. I know we had an officer in Washington who :
[4310]e 39 pps formerly served in Mexico City who was very interested |
[4311]— a fin Teresa Proenza. That officer's name.was Charles Anders.
[4312]Sra i
[4314]Mr, Goldsmith. Is he still with the Agency?
[4315]Mz. Shaw. It is my understanding that he is. i
[4316]Mr. Goldsmith. What about Guillermo Ruiz?
[4318]Mr. Shaw. That does not even ring a bell. Ruiz is a
[4320]BW 50955 Docld:39277214 Page 43
[4323]i |
[4324]; ty very common Spanish name. Do you want to tell me who he is
[4325]@ z or if you have.anything onuhim? Maybe it might ring arbell. |
[4326]| Mr. Goldsmith. Apparently, Mr. Ruiz was a Cuban intelli-
[4327]i i
[4328]= 4 gence officer at the Embassy, Cuban Embassy.
[4329]| . , +
[4330]Z 5 | Mr. Shaw. I do not recall him there when I was there.
[4331]F 5 | Mr. Goldsmith. What did you say that Mr. Ray Swider's |
[4332]~ i : . ;
[4333]¢ 7 | responsibilities were, i£ you said?
[4334]5S si Mr. Shaw. I did not say. I used his name -- he was
[4335]: 3 | another officer, like I was, in Cuban operations.
[4336]a iH
[4337]= 0 | Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether he had anything to
[4338]: 1 | do with the photo operation... |
[4339]E 2 Mr. Shaw. I do nét know. He may have; I do not know. |
[4340]i H
[4341]eg 12 I do not think: he did. He may. have.. |
[4342]Mr. Goldsmith. After your arrival in Mexico City, did
[4344]i
[4346]i anyone attempt to recruit Ascue?
[4348]REGRESS BHUTLDERS ,
[4349]he
[4351]Mr. Shaw. As far as I know,. there was no attempt made :
[4353]We,
[4355]4 .
[4357]17 | to recruit Ascue after my arrival. My memory could be playing ,
[4358]i |
[4359]|
[4361]STREET, oS.
[4363]tricks on me. 2 know I never went after him.
[4365]'
[4366]t
[4367]i
[4369]1
[4370]i
[4371]1
[4372]t
[4373]|
[4375]H
[4376]1
[4377]i
[4380]f
[4382]t
[4384]= 17 (A brief recess was taken.) ~
[4385]Pied i .
[4386]= 76 “Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to get into the number of
[4387]=~ 7 | people who were in Cuban Operations in Cetober of '63, September,
[4388]OSS |
[4389]Psi 4 :
[4391]© pa 122} October of '63. Could you tell me again how many?
[4393]235 Mx. Shaw. If you could show me a list of the people at
[4394]pO .
[4395]o a4 | the American Embassy at that time, I think I could pretty well |
[4396]| oo, .
[4397],quickly, in the ‘station -- if you have such a list, I probably |
[4399]HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 44 ALSERSON RE:
[4402]3
[4404]H
[4405]@ 4.
[4407], {
[4408]i
[4409]i
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[4456]. ra .
[4457]23
[4461]if
[4465]‘could very quickly identify those that. had some connection
[4467]A . -
[4468]iwith Cuban Ops.
[4470]|
[4471]le have Mr. Phillips, yourself and Mr. Swider.
[4473]been
[4475]|
[4478]M
[4482]iCuban operations?
[4484]i
[4485]|
[4486]sure.
[4487]|
[4489]else
[4491]what
[4493]Mr. Goldsmith. ‘The Agency has not given us that list
[4495]today to have for this purpose. !
[4497]four?
[4501]Mr. Shaw. Do you have one lying around?
[4503]Mr. Goldsmith. No.
[4505]i
[4507]So far, according to my recollection of appearances,
[4509]Mr. Shaw.. When I arrived there, Tom Hasbrook would have
[4510]|
[4512]there. He would have been gonesby that time... .
[4514]John .Zambérnardi would have been involved in the technical
[4516]|
[4517]i
[4519]i
[4521]i
[4522]i
[4524]I- am. not sure whether Pegqy Magret was there or not.
[4526]Mr. Goldsmith. How many case officers were there?in
[4528]Mr. Shaw. Probably-just three, three or four, I am not i
[4530]Mr. Goldsmith. There were three case officers,probably
[4532]Mc. Shaw. At least. three, yes. Dave and Ray and myself.
[4534]Mr. Goldsmith. Was theresa fourth?
[4536]Mr. Shaw. I do not know. I cannot recall, offhand, who
[4537]was there.
[4538]Wait. a minute. Lorna McKay was there, as a researcher --
[4540]was it called? Research analyst. .
[4542]SECRET
[4544]HW 50955 Docld: 32277214 Page 45 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPARY
[4546]Shh- 2565
[4548]O.C. 20024 (202)
[4550]GA STETHG TON ,
[4552]REPORTERS BUELDENG,
[4554]We,
[4558]rs To
[4562]oO
[4568]Mx. Goldsmith. I am interested now only in case officers.
[4570]i.do-have avlist:here, réferred..to-as CIA:169-70; which |
[4571]i has’ a list of Agency employees. Would you please examine that
[4572]| List? |
[4573](pause) |
[4574]“| Mc. Shaw. Okay. |
[4575]iL.
[4576]) Perhaps there would have been myself, Ray Swider, Dave
[4577]|
[4578]\ phillips and” Lorna McKay. | .
[4579]Mr. Goldsmith. Was Lorna McKay a case officer? |
[4580]Mr. Shaw. Lorna McKay was not. considered -~ yes, I guess |
[4581]| she was a case officer. I do not know what cases she handled. |
[4582]Ht i
[4583]| She did more of what we call INTEL analyst work. She had
[4584]i ; |
[4585]| officer rank, I believe. I believe she was a GS-9 or -ll or |
[4586]| something. ‘I do not remember.
[4587]But Peaqqy; the girl I mentioned awhile ago, was not there
[4588]vontil 1965. That was about it.
[4589]The ranking would have been David Phillips, myself, |
[4590]“Ray swider, Lorna McKay. |
[4591]' ° Mr. Goldsmith. How did you divide up your responsibilities?
[4592]i Mr. Shaw. Let me interject. Jack Stewart was there, but |
[4595]‘he was not in Mexico City. He was in Yucatan, in the consulate.
[4597]4
[4599]i
[4600]; Mr. Goldsmith. Fine.
[4601]| —_
[4602]! How did you four divide up your responsibilities?
[4603]t
[4605]; Mr. Shaw. We were given certain agents to handle and we
[4609]SECRET
[4611]DEUS!
[4613]a
[4615]a! q 1-46
[4621]|
[4622]ty
[4624]|
[4625]it :
[4626]2
[4628]other activities he would pass around. I notice --
[4630]Mr. Goldsmith. Whichwwere those other activities?
[4632]tad
[4634]Mr. Shaw. Anything that might come to light. that Dave
[4636]i would -~- an ad hoc requirement;,,or something Like that, he
[4638]rh
[4640]Z 2 might ask any of us to help out, or somebody else might ask
[4642]t { .
[4644]2 vias to do something. I went out and helped surveil’a meeting
[4646]= 7 [one time for one of these guys: down here. ‘It had nothing to
[4648]S = ja with Cuban Ops.
[4650]3 | Mx. Goldsmith. What procedures did the four of you
[4652]e it '
[4654]= o establish for reviewing photographs?
[4656]: nl Mr. Shaw. The only procedure that was established was
[4658]3 2 | route the photographs and show them to any agent, personnel, |
[4660]et i : :
[4661]e 33 | who might be in a position to identify the persons in the
[4663]: | photographs. 7
[4665]E is | Mr. Goldsmith. Did any of you identify all the photographs
[4667]: fan the Cuban Operation Branch? !
[4669]4 P| Mr. Shaw. I do not know. |
[4671]5 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Was there a system to this? |
[4673]a
[4675]£ : Mr. Shaw. If there was, I did not set it up. When I got |
[4677]S * | potoorane I would show them to LITAMIL-9 and have him tell |
[4679]-ww- ?' | me who they were and I would write a contact | report and submit
[4680]@ val 2 7 it to my Chief, who was Dave Phillips. ; ,
[4681]I would assume that Ray Swider probably did the same
[4683]| thing with his agents.
[4684]2 Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, unless there was a system for |
[4686]bs SECRET
[4688]oe SON TING COMease
[4689]HW 50955 Docla:32277214 Page 47 ALSERSON REPORTING COMBAMY
[4691]20024 €207) 554-2945
[4693]n.c,
[4695]HASH THGTON ,
[4697]REPGWENES BUTEDING,
[4699]aM,
[4701]s
[4703]300 Vr STREET,
[4705]cosy
[4711]st
[4713]we
[4714]in
[4716]HW 50955 DoctId
[4718]249977214 Page 48
[4720]4 2h raw tas
[4721]SEGRE]
[4724]reviewing the photographs, you had no way of knowing that
[4725]all of the photographs were being reviewed by you and other
[4726]| Cuban Operations.case officers?
[4727]Mr. Shaw. I had no way of knowing . I was seeing all the
[4728]| photographs, that is true. I assumed I did.
[4730]= Mr. Goldsmith. You had no way of knowing that?
[4732]Mr. Shaw. Not unless I would have gone to pick them up
[4734]4 from the man who took them and developed them, which I did not
[4736]| do. |
[4738]Mr. Goldsmith. With regard to the transcripts, did you
[4739]| have any procedure for insuring that aileof the transcripts
[4741]| were being reviewed?
[4743]| Mr. Shaw. Did I have a procedure? No. The station
[4745]| routed the transcripts to the various officers. Winn Scott
[4746]quite often routed them. I notice you had a transcript some-
[4747]where here -~
[4749]Mr. Goldsmith. .We will look at the transcripts later on.
[4751]Mr. Shaw. Winn Scott quite often routed those to a
[4752]leno officer.
[4754]Cuban operations that were sent to the station reviewed by at
[4755]‘ least one of the Cuban operations case officers?
[4757]Mr. Shaw. I do not know.
[4759]Mr. Goldsmith. Was Mr. Scott a very demanding man?
[4761]Mr. Shaw. What do you mean by "demanding"?
[4763]SEGRET
[4765]ALSERSO PORTING COM PmaMoy
[4767]Mr. Goldsmith. Were all of the transcripts pertaining’ to.
[4770]SEGRE:
[4772]Mr. Goldsmith. Did he expect his employees to work hard
[4776]and to perform thorough, competent work?
[4780]Mr. Shaw. I assume he did. He never said so in so many
[4784]words.
[4786]8 It was my understanding that until he was remarried he
[4788]5 worked long hours in the Embassy, before I got there. Sometimes
[4789]|.
[4791]> he had people in there at. 9:00 o'clock at night.
[4793]3 | Mr. Goldsmith. Compared to other station chiefs that
[4795]5 | you had worked under, was he more demanding or less?
[4797]tg ' Mr. Shaw. I would not say he was any more. He expected |
[4799]1 | work out of his people and got it. |
[4801]at Mr. Goldsmith. Is it fair to say that the Mexico City
[4803]“
[4804]a
[4807]t
[4808]a
[4809]wit
[4812]c
[4816]c
[4817]a
[4819]Q
[4821]a
[4823]i
[4825]a
[4827]z
[4832]a
[4834]n
[4837]c
[4841]y | station had one of the biggest telephone surveillance opera-
[4842]14 | tions in existence?
[4844]Mr. Shaw. Certainly in Latin America.
[4846]Mr. Goldsmith. Any CIA station?
[4848]me Mr. Shaw. I don't*®knew about any CIA station. Certainly
[4849]7 in Latin America. It ate up a lot of man hours.
[4851]Mr. Goldsmith. In light of the fact that Mr. Scott
[4853]apparently was a demanding man and that you had one of the © |
[4855]largest surveillance operations in effect in Latin America,
[4857]your testimony today is that you do not know whether the Cuban |
[4859]i operations case officers reviewed all of the transcripts?
[4860]4
[4862]|
[4863]|
[4865]Mr. Shaw. I do not. think that. the prefacing was necessary.
[4867]23 |The latter part of that, in which you asked me if I am aware
[4869]Pos SebRel
[4871]COMPANY
[4873]BW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 49 ALDERSON REPORTING COs
[4876]SECRET 1
[4878]that all of the transcripts of the Cuban Ops were examined
[4880]49
[4882]“70
[4884]by the Cuban Ops section, I would have to, again, say I do
[4886]hm
[4888]not know.
[4890]i
[4892]i “Discussion off the record.) :
[4894]cry
[4896]Mr. Goldsmith. We just went off the record for a moment
[4898]i
[4899]| because Mr. Shaw had a question about where his car was parked
[4900]|
[4902]‘and whether there would be any problem about that, and I
[4904]| indicated that I did not think there would be a problem.
[4906]ces)
[4908]20024 (202) 554-2405
[4910]Mr. Shaw, do you recall who delivered the photographs
[4912]oO
[4914]O.C,
[4916], to the station, the tape from the survéillance opexation?
[4918]HWASULHGTON ,
[4920]' picked them up. Bob gambernardi would have picked them up
[4922]|
[4923]i
[4924]i
[4925]|
[4926].
[4927]4 Mr. Shaw. It was my understanding that the technician
[4928]# from the agent.
[4930]You are talking af the Cuban Embassy now?
[4932]i
[4933]i Mr. Goldsmith. Yes, and consulate.
[4935]hay
[4937]REPORTERS BU ELDENG,
[4939]Mr. Shaw. It is my understanding that. he would have
[4941]ul.
[4943]picked them up from the agent who took the photographs. The
[4945]$.
[4947];g | agent who took the photographs developed them, printed them,
[4949]and turned the prints over to Mr. Zambernardi. That is the. way:
[4951]i
[4952]H
[4957]n
[4961]oo
[4963]35 I think it worked.
[4964]yo . j
[4966]Mr. Goldsmith. Hew would you actually get to review the
[4967]photographs? ‘Who would bring them to you?
[4968]Mr. Shaw. Usually I do not remember who brought them to
[4970]t
[4972]‘me. I have the impression it may have been Lorna Mckay, but
[4977]| T could be wrong: Maybe Bob brought them to me. [I do not know.
[4979]EGRET
[4981]HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 50 FORTING COMES
[4983]i
[4985]HW 50955
[4991](202) $54-2345
[4992]t
[4994]2NAZ I
[4995]is
[4997]D.e,
[4998]oO
[5000]MAGI HOPTON ,
[5002]age
[5003]Hee,
[5005]BUELL
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[5008]cary
[5010]SUE REPORTS ES
[5011]a
[5015]i
[5017]JHA TH STREET,
[5018]Fi
[5023]| Bat I would get a batch of photographs to go through.
[5025]i “Mr. Goldsmith. Who had reporting responsibility for
[5027]| passing along the information that had been obtained from the
[5030]i photographs and the transcripts?
[5031]Mr. Shaw. There was little reporting that came out of !
[5033]the photographs. Usually, it yielded what we called operational
[5034]. , i
[5036]information rather than intelligence information, to enable us |
[5038]‘who was in the Cuban Embassy, and what they were up to.
[5040]i
[5042]|
[5046]|
[5048]i
[5049]i to develop a better understanding of who was in the area, of
[5050]; C ,
[5052]'
[5054]} As far as reporting intelligence that came from those,
[5058]i
[5059]it probably was reported by the reports section of the Embassy.
[5060]Next to Winn Scott's office was the CA Chief's office and,
[5061]next to that,-- I'm getting in the new embassy now. I don
[5063]not remember where the report section was in the old embassy. |
[5065]We had reports: officers who actually repaired most of the’
[5066]reports from raw reports, if you will, reported by. the case !
[5067]officers.
[5069]F Again, I would like to point out that these photographs
[5071]yielded very: little reportable intelligence. It was mostly
[5073]operational intelligence.
[5075]Mr. Goldsmith. Understood.
[5076]Who was George Monroe?
[5077]Mr. Shaw. George Monroe was a former agent, Special: Agent}
[5079]1 of the Federal Bureau of Investigation .who retired or resigned,
[5081]I do not know how he left the Bureau, and worked in Mexico
[5083]39277214 Page 51
[5085]| City on the outside, aS=a non-official cover asset for Winn
[5086]eS 2 | scott. Ann Goodpasture, I believe, had a lot of contact with
[5087]i | George Monroe. _I very seldom saw George Monroe. I had nothing
[5088]{ |
[5089]@ 4 | to do with him operationally. |
[5090]z 5 Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know what his responsibilities
[5092]4 | were? |
[5093]= 7 Mr. Shaw. I believe his responsibilities had to do with !
[5094]|
[5095]é 3 | dealings with the Mexican government, liaison responsibilities.
[5096]: aE: think George was used by Winn because George had good contacts
[5097]a i
[5098]= 10 fan the Ministry of Interior, which would have been sort of the |
[5099]= 4
[5100]= | | equivalent of the Department of Justice here and out of that |
[5101]5 7 Ministry came, for example, the man who became President of |
[5102]- t ° !
[5103]@ 2 id | Mexico. He. was the station asset;yicontact, not agent.
[5104]2 ms Mr, Goldsmith. You mentioned earlier.. Mr. Charles Ander- |
[5105]= i
[5106]: 1§ son, is that correct?
[5107]: 1s | Mr. Shaw. ‘Yes. :
[5108]; 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know. why Mr. Anderson had an inter
[5109]_ i '
[5110]: ia | est in Eusbio Ascue? - |
[5111]in 1
[5112]: 3 | Mr. Shaw. No, I do not believe it was. I think it was |
[5113]< 2 | Teresa Proenza. I do not think he had any interest in Ascue. |
[5115]Mr. Goldsmith. Who was the individual who had the
[5117]" interest in Ascue?
[5119]Mr. Shaw. I do not know. I said if it had been before
[5121]; S)
[5122]ES ted,
[5123]4,
[5128]| my arrival, I would suspect it was Tom Hasley. He was carrying
[5130]2i | the ball down there and was responsible for that sort of
[5132]4 : Sa
[5134]ALDERSON RE:
[5136]HW 50955 Docld:322977214 Page 52
[5140]a activity. I do not knew that he did, but if it happenéd in,
[5144]|
[5145]@ : | say, late '62 or somewhere in there, it probably would have
[5146]J
[5150]been Tom who would have done that.
[5152]i
[5153]i
[5154]i
[5155]j
[5157]e 4 2 Mr. Goldsmith. What was Anderson's position at the
[5158]z : | Embassy? |
[5159]5 7 Mr. Shaw. He was not at the Embassy then. He was at
[5161]g 7 the Embassy back in 1965. .I. do not know, for a number, of years.
[5162]iS 7 At that time, Charlie hdd gone back to Headquarters and.he
[5165]was involved in Cuban operations from Headquarters, the detail
[5167]D.C,
[5169]nn oe A
[5171]o
[5173]| of which were notomade known to me. Whether they were made
[5175]known to Winn Scott or Dave Phillips or others, I do not know.
[5177]VASHTHCTON ,
[5179]Mr. Goldsmith. When would he have made an effort, if
[5181]he did, to recruit Teresa Proenza?
[5183]42
[5185]i Mr. Shaw. .I am not sure that he ever tried to recruit.
[5187]| I am merely saying that he had a lot of interest, »I do not
[5189]REPORTERS WU CLDTNG ,
[5190]ta in
[5192]1, | think anybody ever tried to recruit her. If they did; they
[5194]Sou.
[5196]were wasting their time,
[5198]G
[5199]“~t
[5201]. :
[5202]= 1a i Mx. Goldsmith. Why were they wasting their time?
[5203]‘ew I |
[5204]aA | of
[5205]= 19} MY. Shaw. She was a pretty tough nut. I never saw ~~ if.
[5206]é 30 | I canwremember ~~ I do not. remember any vulnerability of
[5208]Teresa Proenza. |
[5210]Mr. Goldsmith. What was the nature of Mr. Andersan's
[5212]23
[5214]interest in her?
[5215]. j
[5217]Mr. Shaw. I do not know. Some Cuban operational interest,
[5221]i
[5223]73 i maybe trying to get some information from her through a third
[5225]H
[5226]ut
[5228]i
[5230]HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 33
[5232]es 1-53
[5233]; | party. I have no idea.
[5235].
[5236]@ 2 | Mr, Goldsmith. When did he spend time in Mexico City that
[5238]i
[5239]i
[5240]* he would have had an opportunity? .
[5242]ane
[5244]Mr. Shaw. He visited Mexico City quite often.
[5246]= 5. Mr. Goldsmith. Even though he was not stationed down
[5247]: , | there, he visited often? :
[5248]: 7 Mr. Shaw. That is correct. He madé trips in and out of
[5250]z : Mexico City.
[5252]. 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know what Teresa Proenza's position
[5254]‘| . :
[5255]19 | WaS at the Cuban Embassy or Consulate?
[5257]pn.
[5261]Mrs Shaw. I think by that time she was out of the Embassy
[5263]t
[5264]i
[5265]1
[5266]t
[5267]i
[5268]|
[5271]VASUTMCTON ,
[5273]was she not? I do not. remember. She left.
[5275]Teresa Proenza was a Mexican. She was not.a Cuban. And
[5277]to
[5279]ea
[5281],r am under the impression that by the time I got there,
[5283]i Teresa had left the Embassy. I may be wrong. I think that
[5285]REPGETP ES RUTED ING ,
[5286]in
[5288]she was involved in cultural activities.
[5290]iW.
[5291]o
[5293]a 7 | Mr. Goldsmith. Do:you know whether Mexican intelligence |
[5295]= 4
[5297]2 7a; would have had any penetration agents at the Cuban Embassy or
[5299]= 1 . j
[5301]a
[5303]= 19 | consulate?
[5304]= 30 | Mr. Shaw. I think they would have tried. I do not know
[5306],
[5308]—— 7! | how effective Mexican. intelligence was. I did not deal with
[5310]it.
[5312]Sa |
[5314]“It would be assumed that they made every attempt, the
[5316]i
[5318]| Cubans were gradually removing Mexicans from their employee,
[5319]| |
[5320]ifrom the Cuban Embassy. I think it highly unlikely that the
[5322]|
[5323]|
[5324]|
[5325]|
[5326]1
[5328]a
[5330]ALDERSON REPORT COMBARLY
[5332]HW 50955 Docld: 32277214 Page 54
[5337]4
[5338]i | Mexican government, given its position, was the only government,
[5339]|
[5341]i
[5343]jin the Western Hemisphere which maintained relations with
[5347]2 | Cuba, would have been -- it would have been highly unlikely for!
[5349]: ij them to have tried to pitch a Cuban national.
[5351]ta
[5353]On the other hand, I think it would have been likely,
[5355]and would have been expected of them, to have tried to find
[5357]out from any Mexican working in the Cuban Embassy what was going
[5358]I
[5360]on.
[5362]20024 (202) SSu-23405
[5363]au ~
[5365]What this comes down to, of course, is gardenérs. and :
[5367]N.c,
[5370]secretaries...
[5374]Mr. Goldsmith. Why do you make that distinction between
[5376]VASUTHGTON ,
[5380]a Cuban national and a Mexican?
[5384]Mr. Shaw. I make that distinction because of the flap
[5386]potential If the Mexicans had attempted to pitch a Cuban and
[5390]the Cuban had not accepted that pitch and had reportéd it
[5392]REPORTERS BHOLLDENG ,
[5394]Os
[5396]to his superiors, the Mexican Foreign Office then would have
[5398]na
[5400]SY
[5403]had a problem with the Cuban Foreign Ministry.
[5404]Mr. Goldsmith. Of course, the Mexican government was
[5405]also taking a risk by being involved in the liaison operation
[5407]or the Agency as well.
[5409]gna 77 STRENE,
[5410]ae _ _
[5411]ren way On
[5413]Mr. Shaw. One could assume that they had measured their |
[5415]operation. Do not get me wrong. I do not know whether they
[5417]had anything going or not. I would assume, just based on my
[5419]@ re’ i> risk, yes, certainly. There is an element of risk in every
[5421]experience, that they would not have tried to pitch Cubans,
[5423]HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 55
[5427]; | that they would have tried to exert subtle coercion on
[5429]Mexicans working there to report in the interest of Mexican
[5431]national security on what is going on in that Embassy.
[5433]Mr. Goldsmith. Who would have been in a position to know
[5435]re
[5437]ce
[5439]Es 7 if the Mexican government successfully penetrated the Cuban
[5440]5 7 Embassy or consulate?
[5441]E 7 | Mr. Shaw. The President of Mexico would have known.
[5442]S z | The chief of chiefs of the Mexican service or services.
[5443]= i
[5444]a 3 | Mr. Goldsmith. Any American?
[5445]: ro | Mr. Shaw. Not that I know of.
[5446]: | Mr Goldsmith. Do you know whether there was. any coordin
[5447]$ 2 | tion between the telephone tap operations and the photo
[5448]@ 2 1a operations. For example, if a conversation of interest came
[5449]E 1} up on the tap operation, would the people monitoring the call
[5450]2 il
[5451]2 is {be able to contact through an intermediary the photo bases
[5452]E 1g | to warn them or indicate to them that someone is coming of
[5453]‘ 7 interest?
[5454]: a Mr. Shaw. It is my understanding that such a system did
[5455]: 3 | not exist, and I do not believe that. the guys monitoring the
[5456]¢ | eetotone tap intercept bases were made aware of photograph
[5457]arene 11 | coverage.
[5458]Bae
[5461]However, I. would assume that a man running a technical
[5463]i
[5464]22 | operation, if he heard something exciting on the line, as
[5465]|
[5466]| opposed to a tape*several days later, would notify his case
[5467]if .
[5468]|
[5470]officer right away and then it might be possible for the case
[5472]HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 56
[5475]202% (202) $5u~2445
[5477]O.C,
[5479]VASIFLUCTON ,
[5481]REPORTERS BULLDING ,
[5483]MW,
[5487]300 PU STRENT,
[5491]i
[5495]cary
[5499]a>
[5501]as
[5502]45
[5503]as
[5507]officer, assuming a quick reaction capability, to crank up
[5509]|the people at the photo house to take pictures. This «was in
[5511]the most perfect of all worlds. Usually things did not work
[5513]that way and you end up out on»the street, in the middle of
[5515]ithe night two days later, contacting whoever it is taking
[5517]photographs.
[5519]Mr. Goldsmith. Do you. know whether the Mexico City
[5520]station ever obtained a photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald?
[5522]Mr. Shaw. To my understanding, they did not. I never
[5523]saw anything down there that looked like Lee Harvey Oswald.
[5525]“Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever hear an allegation that
[5526]Charlotte Bustos, at CIA Headquarters in Washington, found a
[5527]photograph. of Oswald, or Somedne she thought to be Oswald,
[5528]in the Headquarters files shortly after the assassination?
[5530]-Mr. Shaw. No, I have never heard such a story. Knowing
[5531]Charlotte -- not knowing her well, but having known her over
[5532]the years, I would assume that had she found such a thing
[5533]she would have rung a big loud bell and say, hey, look what
[5534]I found. :
[5536]Mr. Goldsmith. With regard’ tothe. photo. operation, . ‘let.
[5537]us-assume, for a-moiment that. you-come.across a picture of
[5538]mnterest. Did you have any way of determining on what day and.
[5539]approximately what time the. picture would have been taken?
[5541]Mr. Shaw. Very definitely.
[5543]Mr. Goldsmith. How would you have done that?
[5545]ALSESSON REPORTING COMaaKy
[5547]HW 50955 Docld: 32277214 Page 57 \
[5549]i
[5553]ij Mr. Shaw. The photographs were squared off and were
[5555]ho
[5557]og | annotated. We knew the day. We knew, usually, morning or
[5561]afternoon, a.m. or p.m. Sometimes you could judge by the
[5563]e 4 | sequence.
[5567]Furthermore, sometimes the actual time of the person going
[5569]q
[5571]in and going out was actually annotated, if the person operating
[5573]was operating manually, he would no doubt, the guy with the
[5575]20024 (202) SSH-2345
[5576]“
[5578]red~checkered Hawaiian shirt went in at 10:05. - He would note
[5580]| that in a little log.
[5582]c
[5583]ay
[5585]p.c.
[5587]I do not know whether he would note it on the photograph
[5589]HW or submit the log with the number keyed to thé log in the
[5591]UASEELMGTON,
[5593]photograph. Quite often we knew to the minute when a person
[5595]by.
[5597]Mr. Goldsmith. I see.
[5599]REPORTERS BUTEDING,
[5601]So, to your knowledge, there were photo-production logs
[5603]am
[5607]| that could be checked?
[5609]Siu.
[5612]13 i Mr. Shaw. To my knowledge, such logs did exist, yes. :
[5614]Whether the logs were kept after the information was noted on
[5616]S
[5618]n
[5619]= 13
[5620]x
[5621]<7
[5622]oc
[5625]the photograph, on the back of the photograph or wherever it
[5627]was noted, I haverno idea.
[5629]The photographs, quite often came in the form of 35 mm.
[5631]contact strip prints and then blow-ups of a number of those.
[5633]I recall #- I had not thought about it all these years,
[5637]as ‘put usually you knew when a quy, you. certainly knew when he went
[5639]1
[5640]i
[5642]Ht
[5644]i
[5645]'
[5647]HW 50955 Docld: 32277214 Page 56
[5651]in on Tuesday morning, the 16th of May, whatever that date
[5653]| was
[5654]1 Mr. Goldsmith. Who would make the notations on the back af
[5655]' |
[5656]a 4 | the photograph or contact print as to the time? |
[5657]t
[5658]E 3 Mr. Shaw. In our case, I believe it was the man taking |
[5659]3 . the photographs because he took the photographs, developed |
[5660]s + | the photographs, printed them and turned them over.
[5661]as a Mr. Goldsmith. If he were to put the time on, he would
[5662]: ; | nave to go to his loq and see what the time was and then make |
[5663]: 1g | the entry? |
[5665]Mr. Shaw. Right. He probably made a little notation to
[5667]WASTELICTON,
[5669]i
[5670]i. | himself like I mentioned, the bright shirt or something. Then
[5672]i he would recognize that person in the photograph and make that
[5674]REPORTERS GELDING,
[5676]4 || notation.
[5677]| |
[5678]is | -(Pause)
[5679]i
[5682]ie | Mr. Goldsmith. When was the first time that the name
[5684]JV,
[5689]; Lee Harvey Oswald came to your attention? :
[5690]Mr. Shaw. It would have been the evening of the day of
[5691]the assassination. . '
[5693]Mr. Goldsmith. How did that:happen?
[5695]Mr. Shaw. We listened. We hada radio. I think it was |
[5697]one of those Zenith Trans-Oceanics in one of the Embassy
[5699]offices. : |
[5701]I was out at an agent meeting when I heard about the
[5703]assassination and I came back to the Embassy and went upstairs |
[5705]HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 59
[5707]3
[5708]& 4
[5712]t
[5714]wi fe)
[5715]- .
[5716]“ :
[5717]c
[5718]= 7
[5720]“ 3
[5721]a 3
[5724]ray y
[5725]a
[5726]= id
[5727]S
[5728]g
[5729]5 1
[5733]a
[5735]+E 1s
[5736]& 2
[5737]2
[5738]5 4.
[5740]S
[5741]a“ 17
[5742]bed ia
[5743]in
[5746]Cc
[5747]Ss 29
[5748]ra
[5749]See
[5750]id
[5751]f~ev 12
[5752]e
[5753]27
[5756]HW 50955 DoclId:
[5758]and we sat and stood around that radio and I believe it was
[5759]in Pat Johnson's officé -- her name was something else in
[5760]those days. I can't remember her married name.
[5762]And they said something about the police said it was Lee
[5763]Harvey Oswald, or something. I do not remember. That was the
[5764]first time that it came to my attention.
[5766]Mr. Goldsmith. I would like you now to take a look at
[5767]CIA No. 13 which is a transcript of the conversation allegedly
[5768]involving Oswald, a conversation taking place on 1 October '63
[5769]Would you please read through that?
[5771](Pause)
[5773]When was the first time that you saw that transcript, if
[5774]you have ever seen it before?
[5776]Mr. Shaw. I do not. know whether I have ever seen it or
[5777]not, but I may’ well have. I was aware that he had called the
[5778]Soviet Embassy, was made aware after the notoriety of the man
[5779]was established, but I do not recall ever seeing this before
[5780]that.
[5782]Normally, I would not.
[5784]Mr. Goldsmith. Prior to the assassination, did you see
[5785]it?
[5787]Mr. Shaw. No. If I did, I did not pay any attention.
[5789]I do not believe that it was on a Cuban line.
[5791]Mr. Goldsmith. No, it was not.
[5793]Mr. Shaw. Sometimes you can tell who saw these things by
[5795]coMaaiy
[5797]|
[5799]i
[5800]|
[5802]i
[5803]1
[5808]t
[5812]the initials up top. ;
[5815]. |
[5817]| \
[5818]: |
[5820]“Mr. Goldsmith. There are notwritings or notations on that!
[5821]|
[5823]1 |
[5826]; | one, however. '
[5828]| Would you please read CIA 177, which is a cable from 7
[5829]= : | Mexico City station dated October 8th?
[5830]* i i
[5831]2 7 (Pause) |
[5832]g 7 | Mr. Shaw. Yes, this is typical where they try to identity
[5833]& : | sonenoey that was in the Embassy at the same time. Of course, |
[5834]ial i
[5835]; » | that does not-sound like it.
[5836]: 0 Mr. Goldsmith. This was the famous cable that has given !
[5837]: 11 | rise to some of the issues that the Committee was concerned
[5839]g “| with. My first question is, did you have anything to do with |
[5841]@ : 12 | the writing of this cable?
[5842]E | Mr. Shaw. No;.I did not. I would not have had. |
[5843]bl i i
[5844]E 5 | Mr... Goldsmith. Do you know how the photograph referred |
[5845]E ie to in paragraph number two of that cable was in some way Linked
[5846]a 7 to Oswald?
[5847]i
[5848]: ia | - Mr. SHaw. I would assume my answer to your question is ;
[5849]-
[5850]: re no. I would assume that this was an effort on the patt of |
[5851]é 29 | the person drafting the cable to help Headquarters identify. |
[5852]i
[5854]Lee Oswald, the man who had made the call. i
[5856]Mr. Goldsmith. Do-you know how she made that conclusion
[5858]21 | that the photograph reflected Oswald? i
[5860]@ ts Mr. Shaw. No. I do not think she did. I think she
[5862]25 | merely says that we got a guy who looks like he might be an
[5864]n
[5866]i
[5868]HW 50955 DocId: 32277214 Page 61
[5870]1-61 i
[5872]American going in, and maybe this is the fellow. I do not
[5874]ne
[5876]see from this cable any conclusion that that is Oswald. I
[5878]dad
[5880]| yather suspect they never got a picture of Oswald. This is
[5882]|
[5883]i} the one that appeared there, tthat looked like it could be
[5885]ian American. Therefore, an effort was made to help Headquarters
[5889]i q00 71H STREET, SoU, REPORTERS SUTLDING | HASENOTOH, B.C. 20024 (2702) S54-2345
[5892]by saying a man who looked like he might be an American i
[5894]entered the Soviet Embassy at that time.
[5896]Mr. Goldsmith. JI agree with you, Mr. Shaw. Certainly,
[5898]o>
[5900]the cable does not say that the photograph is a photograph of
[5903]H
[5905]|
[5906]i
[5908]Oswald. At the same time, though, it gives the information
[5910]in paragraph 1 on Oswald and the second paragraph makes. -~
[5912]17 | reference to a photograph taken of someone who appears to be
[5914]- 13 | North American.
[5916]Certainly they woulld:not have sent to Headquarters simply
[5918]in
[5920]4a cable indicating the existence of a photograph, so by putting
[5922]j;the photograph in paragraph 2-immediately below the information
[5924]on
[5926]i
[5928]jon Oswald, although the cable does not say that the photograph
[5930]is one of Oswald, it does in some way suggest that they are
[5932]lvelated.
[5933]|
[5934]i ‘Mr. Shaw. It suggests to me that they know an American
[5936]|
[5937]r
[5938]'
[5941]twho claimed to be Lee Oswald called at a certain time, and
[5943]then they went to the photographs to see if they could find
[5945]i
[5946]‘anybody who looked like he might be an American, and the
[5948]i
[5950]| photo they found was of a man apparently 35, athletic build,
[5951]| !
[5952]22 labout 6 feet tall, receding hair: line and so forth; and they
[5954]it
[5956]COME SALY
[5958]no,
[5959]HW O50955 Docld: 32277214 Page 62
[5963]7 submitted this on the off-chance that this might have beeni the |
[5964]ae 2 | man who made the call. |
[5965]3 | Mr. Goldsmith. I understand your answer. I am hopeful |
[5966]i
[5967]& 4 | that you understand that I am not. suggesting that the cable |
[5968]i : |
[5969]= 7 definitely says the photograph is one of Oswald.
[5971]2 5 Mr. Shaw. No, I do not. see that it does at all.
[5972]g 71 Mr. Goldsmith. Would you please take a look, now, at
[5973]= 3. CIA 183?
[5975]ra 3 | (Pause)
[5976]a i
[5977]= 10 | Mr. Shaw. All right, I have read it.
[5978]: in| Mr. Goldsmith. This is a cable,iis it not, from CIA
[5979]: 12 | Headquarters back to the Mexico City station responding to the |
[5980]e 3 13 earlier cable from the station reperting Oswald's contact? |
[5981]z 7 Mr. Shaw. That is what it looks like to me. :
[5982]: is: Mr. Goldsmith. The fifth paragraph of that cable requests
[5983]: ig | that the station keep Headquarters advised of any further
[5984]‘ 7 contacts or positive identification of Oswald?
[5985]: | Mr. Shaw. Yes. |
[5986]z a Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether the station ever sent
[5987]= 0 any additional information to Headquarters concerning Oswald? |
[5988]\ . i
[5989]ae Mr. Shaw. No, I do not, and I do not recall ever seeing :
[5991]this cable, either.
[5993]Mr. Goldsmith. Today is possibly the first time that you:
[5994]have seen that cable?
[5996]Mr. Shaw. It could well be, yes. You may have one with
[5998]Osage”
[6001]BSON RESORTING COMPAR
[6003]HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 63 ALGER
[6007]; | my initials on it, but I doubt it.
[6009]| |
[6010]a 2 | “Mr. Goldsmith. Looking at CIA 183, there is an arrow |
[6011]5 | pointedito the word "Henry", "Lee Henry Oswald." Adjacent to |
[6012]@ . the arrow it says "sic," s-i-c.
[6013]= a What do you think Mr. Scott was intending to indicate |
[6014]F , | when he wrote "sic" next to the "Henry". in "Lee Henry Oswald"? |
[6015]|
[6016]g 5] Mr. Shaw... i would rather. suspect that he wrote this on
[6017]& ; | here subsequent to the assassination when the word came out it was
[6018]; . "Harvey Oswald" rather than "Henry Oswald" unless there is '
[6019]: q | something in here that says "Harvey." Is there any? |
[6021]E rp Mr. Goldsmith. Nd, there is none. |
[6022]= i : H
[6023]3 a! . Mr. Shaw. I would imagine that is something he wrote
[6024]: to. |
[6025]@ 2 14 on later so that they would get the file in the right name.
[6027]2 14 | Bhat would be my quess.
[6028]a i ;
[6029]: sl Mr. Goldsmith. Would you now take a look at CIA No. 14. |
[6030]z Is | ¥ou may also want to take a look at CTAANO. 15 at the same |
[6031]: , | tame. a :
[6032]a (Pause) |
[6033]: a | Would you identify the document that you just reviewed? ,
[6034]é 0 Mr. Shaw. What it. looks like is a normal LIENVOY trans- |
[6035]1 t
[6036]2! leription. I see my name up here, but I don't see anything
[6038](cf
[6039]te
[6041]i that indicates that I ever saw it. It looks like Scott and
[6043]KR
[6044]ces]
[6046]| Goodpasture made checks on it. There is my name, but there
[6048]i 274 /4s no indication, no initial on my; part. Probably I did not.
[6050]we
[6051]ba
[6053]see it. ,
[6056]i
[6059]EE
[6061]BW 50955 Docld:39277214 Page 64
[6065]by Mr. Goldsmith. What is the date of that transcript?
[6067]@ . 1 | ; " Mr. Shaw. 28 September 1963 is what is listed on here.
[6069]Mr. Goldsmith. Do you recall whether you ever saw that
[6071]|
[6072]i
[6073]« i
[6074]4 | transcript before?
[6076]3 s | _ Mr. Shaw. I do not recall. I must have seen it after- |
[6077]F é wards, because : know Sylvia Duran was a person who had dealt |
[6078]S 7 with Oswald.
[6080]NS 3 -Mr. Goldsmith. When was the first time that this. trans-
[6081]= '
[6082]: 3 eript was linked to Oswald?
[6083]- 1g Mr. Shaw. I have no idea. |
[6084]Se i |
[6085]2 ti Mr. Goldsmith. Let us backstep for a moment. The i
[6086]$ 12 | transcript that appears at CIA No. 13 contains a notation in |
[6087]_ { .
[6088]o : = a | brackets by the transcriber that this is the same person who
[6090]i td called a day or so ago. :
[6091]: 1s | Mr, Shaw. To the Soviet Embassy. * * |
[6092]2 1é ; Mr. Goldsmith. Yes. : |
[6093]7 7 | . Oswald also said I was there last Saturday. The trans=- |
[6094]- ia | eript you just looked at, September 28th, was for a Saturday. !
[6095]. 13 Do you recall whether anyone ever came to you and asked |
[6097]é 29 you whetheryyou were aware of a contact by Oswald? !
[6099]vem Uf Mr. Shaw. I do not recall that anybody ever came to me, |
[6101]@ fe? 72 | and I do not think that they did. This sounds familiar. I
[6102]would have heard about this after the assassination, because
[6104]i
[6106]|
[6107]e@ 24 1 I remember Sylvia Duran was the person being a Mexican citizen:
[6109]i i
[6111]|
[6113]inside the Cuban Embassy who I dealt with.
[6115]HW 50955 Doold: 32277214 Page 65
[6117]ces)
[6119]w
[6124]i
[6125]a :
[6129]-
[6130]= 7
[6132]x 2
[6133]rot a.
[6135]“
[6137]. S
[6138]a y
[6139]a
[6141]- 1
[6144]g
[6145]= 1
[6146]~ ut
[6148]= 14
[6150]ia
[6152]o
[6153]= Le
[6155]xs ts
[6156]= te
[6158]= te
[6159]aT
[6160]= ike)
[6161]“a
[6162]= 19
[6164]Cc
[6165]c an
[6166]a ay
[6168]that happened a
[6170]Mr. Shaw.
[6172]ever came to. me
[6174]1 at CIA Nos. 16,
[6176]! (Pause)
[6177]Mr. Shaw.
[6179]iaitials -- No,
[6180]Let me see
[6182](Pause) ¢
[6184]| document No. 22.
[6186]Hy
[6187]i
[6188]Mr. Shaw.
[6189]|
[6191]Mr. Shaw.
[6193]Mr. Shaw.
[6197]Mr. Goldsmith. In other words, the point I was making
[6199]on the October lst transcript, it refers back to something
[6201]day or two earlier, possibly Saturday, and
[6203]I wondered if Herb Minnell, when they were discussing this,
[6205]| came to you to discuss this matter?
[6207]I do not believe they did. Barbara probably
[6209]would have processed this, but I do not recall that anybody
[6211]about it.
[6213]Mr. Goldsmith. Fine. Would you please now take a look
[6215]17, 18,:19 and 20?
[6217]Here you have one that I saw. Those are my
[6218]19. I did not see this one.
[6220]what we have got here.
[6222]I have read it.
[6224]| Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, you have read through CIA
[6226]Yes, I have not read them carefully, but I
[6228]| have looked them over.
[6229]Mr. Goldsmith. Taking a look at CIA No. 16, could you
[6231]identify that document?
[6233]This is a LIENVOY transcript,
[6235]It is a summary.
[6237]Mr. Goldsmith. Is it a summary or a verbatim transcript? -
[6239]Pare Fl ~
[6240]ge ra q
[6241]Soe |
[6245]i Mr. Goldsmith. What is the date of that transcript?
[6247]2 | Mr. Shaw. According to the thing in the margin, 27
[6248]3 | September '63, 1963. This is really the same darned thing :
[6249]4 | here. |
[6250]2 7 Mr. Goldsmith. The same as the transcript that appears |
[6251]5 4 on CIA No. .17? |
[6252]g ri Mr. Shaw. It appears to be,
[6253]x al Mr. Goldsmith.. Approximately what time was this phone |
[6254]3 3 call received?
[6255]: oo _ Mr. shaw. It looks like something put on by pen, "Five |
[6256]Z 7 minutes after 4:00 in the afternoon." MF means a woman -~- |
[6257]s ro is that MF? |
[6258]et 2 id Mr. Goldsmith. Dovnot WOLTy about that. |
[6259]= i
[6260]= ou | When was the first time you sawrthis transcript? |
[6261]: | Mr. Shaw. I do not remember.. :
[6262]Z 1s Mr. Goldsmith. bid you see it before the assassination? |
[6263]= i
[6265]a 17 | Mr. Shaw. I have no idea. :
[6266]z a Mr. Goldsmith. Yournname appears in the right-hand ,
[6267]2 13 | corner. 7
[6268]é 2 | Mr. Shaw. My name appears there. However, it is not
[6270]i
[6272]| crossed out. If you turn over a conple of pages, you will see |
[6274]1
[6275]t
[6276]i
[6277]i
[6279]'
[6281]my initials on another thing.which deals with the same period.
[6283]Do you know whether this transcript was linked to Oswald
[6285]i
[6286]t
[6287]i
[6289]Mr. Goldsmith. I will do that in a minute.
[6290]i
[6291]|
[6292]|
[6294]prior to the assassination?
[6296]H
[6297]i
[6298]i
[6300]t
[6301]3
[6302]4
[6304]i
[6306]HW 50955 Docld: 32277214 Page 67
[6308]rye tab hey
[6310]cory
[6312]rer)
[6314]202% (202) S54-23405
[6316]OQ
[6318]i
[6320]REPORTERS BULLDING, HASITHGTON, D.C.
[6321]a
[6323]S.W.
[6325]STREDT,
[6333]HW 40955 DocId:
[6337]Mr. Shaw. I do not know whether it was or not. I
[6338]gather it was not.
[6340]Mr. Goldsmith. Why is that?
[6342]Mr. Shaw. It does not say. There is no mark on it,
[6343]Oswald on here anywhere.
[6345]Mr. Goldsmith. What are these numbers on the bottom
[6346]right-hand a
[6348]Mr. Shaw. That is the file number.
[6350]Mr. Goldsmith. What file would that be?
[6352]Mr. Shaw. That says subject file. 50-8-10-6. I do not
[6353]know off-hand what that is. I think the 50 stands for
[6354]Mexico. 8-10-6 would be a subject file.
[6356]Probabl¥, possibly somephace where they put..anformation
[6358]on people where they are trying to travel to the Soviet Union.
[6360]I do not know; that is a guess.
[6361]Mr. Goldsmith. Let's take a look at CIA No. 19.
[6363]Mr. Shaw. Okay. CIA No. 19, 27 September, that looks
[6365]ilike my initial. It is very similar.
[6367]Mr. Goldsmith. In the upper right-hand corner?
[6368]Mr. Shaw. I cannot imagine anyone else putting it there.
[6370]Mr. Goldsmith. This is the conversation that took place
[6372]‘later in the day, is that correct?
[6374]Mr. Shaw. 27 September 63, right.
[6376]Mr. Goldsmith. Is it fair to say that this conversation
[6378]‘took place sometime around 4:26 in the afternoon, according to
[6383]the documents?
[6385]ie)
[6387]Mr. Shaw. There is an» indication there.
[6388]|
[6390]Mr. Goldsmith! When did this document first come to your ;
[6392]roy
[6394]4 | attention? . :
[6395]Z | Mr. Shaw. I havetno idea, because there is no date up |
[6396]5 é | there. I do not ‘know when it was circulatédsor anything. 3
[6397]E 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know when it was first linked-to
[6398]. S 4 Oswald? : |
[6399]34 Mr. Shaw. I do not.
[6400]= i cS
[6401]: | Mr. Goldsmith. Did Herbert or Barb Minnell ever come to |
[6403]2 i you to discuss this transcript or conversation with you in |
[6404]3 13 | reference to the transcript. dated October lst? |
[6405]eG 2 13 Mr. Shaw. Not that I remember. |
[6406]= i ; .
[6407]2 ts | Mr.. Goldsmith. At the bottom of CIA No. 19, it says
[6408]Fa i
[6409]: i! copy Oswald P-file. Essentially, do you know when that nota- !
[6410]Z ey tion was put on?
[6411]a 7 Mrs Shaw. I do not know. |
[6413]ia Mr. Goldsmith. Turning back to CIA-177, there is a
[6415]a \
[6416]= 19 | notation on the left-hand side of the page. It says, D:200-5-41.
[6417]5 ; Do you know what that would refer to?
[6419]Mr. Shaw. I have no idea what the D stands for. The
[6421]|
[6422]| 200-5-41 sounds like a file number.
[6423]Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know for what?
[6425]Mr. Shaw. No, I.do not, but I would assume, again, that
[6427]i maybe that would be -- if it is in the 50 series, it would be
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[6551]a Mexico City file. But it may be a Headquarters -- is this
[6552]a Mexico City document, or a Headquarters document?
[6554]Mr. Goldsmith. This is a Headquarters document.
[6556]Mr. Shaw. That is a Headquarters file number. I have no
[6558]idea what the D stands for. It does not look right.
[6560]Mr. Goldsmith. I have asked this question before, but
[6561]for the record and purposes of clarification, I would like to
[6562]ask you again, to your knowledge, after the Mexico City sta-
[6563]tion received the cable from Headquarters dated October 10th
[6564]or lith, did. the: Mexico city Station ever send any additional
[6565]information concerning Oswald to Headquarters?
[6567]Mr. Shaw. To my knowledge, they did not, but I would
[6568]have no way of knowing.
[6570]Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever speak to Herb Minnell about
[6571]this?
[6573]Mr. Shaw. No.
[6575]Mr. Goldsmith. Barbara Minnell?
[6577]Mr. Shaw. No.
[6579]Mr. Goldsmith. Dave Phillips?
[6581]Mr. Shaw. No. -
[6583]Mre Goldsmith. What, if anything, do you know about the
[6584]arrest of Sylvia Duran shortly after the assassination?
[6586]Mr. Shaw. 1 remember that Sylvia Duran was arrested.
[6588]I do not know why. I could have suggested that myself, but I
[6590]do not. remember.
[6592]ALDERSON RESORTING COMPANY
[6597]iG I do remember sending a message to Winn Scott suggesting
[6599]@ 4 that, right after the assassination, that the Mexicans put in
[6601]dad
[6603]a ving of guards aruund the Cuban Embassy and question everybody
[6604]if
[6606]a 4 | going in and out. I remember that idea coming out of my |
[6607]2 7 head. |
[6608]~ |
[6609]F 7 -  ' Ipknow that Sylvia Duran was arrested. She was fair game |
[6610]E | because she was a Mexican national and the Cubans -- she did |
[6611]= 4
[6612]7 not have any Cuban diplomatic immunity. oe |
[6613]~ 7 t would have thought it would have been a good idea to |
[6615]1g question here very closely. As to whether I said that she |
[6616]| should be arrested or I had anything to do with that, I do |
[6618]tz | not know. I was perfectly capable of making such a suggestion
[6620]-Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know why Headquarters was upset
[6622]about that arrest?
[6624]Mr. Shaw. I have no idea.
[6626]REPORTERS BULLDING, HASIFINGCTON, 6. c.
[6627]: a
[6629]1 Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know why Headquarters did not want.
[6630]r 7 | any Americans to confront her or to interview her? |
[6631]a :
[6632]2 1a | Mr. Shaw. Wo.
[6633]: a Mr. Goldsmith. Do you have any reason to believe that :
[6634]é 20 | Oswald may have been an agent of the KGB?
[6636]Mr. Shaw. I have no reason to believe it. i
[6637]Mr. Goldsmith. How about an agent, asset or source of
[6639]' the CIA?
[6641]Mr. Shaw. I would think that that would be completely
[6643]day
[6645], out of the question.
[6647]i
[6648]5
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[6650]3
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[6653]HW 50955 Docld: 32277214 Page fi
[6657]i: Mr. Goldsmith. For purposes of the record, could you
[6659]© 3 explain why you think that would be out of the question? |
[6660]7 Mr. Shaw. Because I think it would have come to light |
[6661]GO 4 ! immediately had he had any CIA connections. |
[6662]= :| Mr. Goldsmith. In what manner?
[6663]F | Mr. Shaw. Somebody would have revealed this fact.
[6664]S 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Had he been an agent of the CIA, asset or
[6665]& 3 | employee, is it possible that someone would have been able to
[6666]e ;
[6667]: 7 cover that fact up?
[6668]: fo | Mr. Shaw. I do not think anyone could have covered up. |
[6669]S |
[6670]g n | Mr. Goldsmith. Why not? |
[6671]B i
[6674]12 Mr. Shaw. Had he been an agent, then it would have been
[6675]13 yon the record somewhere.
[6677]Mr. Goldsmith. Is it possible that the record could have
[6679]ibeen erased or*®purdged in some way?
[6681]REPOITEES BUCLDENG,
[6682]cary 4
[6684]1s Mr. Shaw. I seriously doubt it.
[6690]7 Mr. Goldsmith. Could you give a reason?
[6692]STRERT,
[6693]on
[6695]; Mr. Shaw. Just my belief in the integrity of the organiza-
[6696]i . i
[6697]| :
[6698]No tog !
[6699]= 19 |thon. It stands on that, and the people in it. i
[6700]~ H . {
[6701]é 20 | Mr. Goldsmith. Does the Agency, to your knowledge, have
[6702]| , ;
[6704]3! Hany safeguards to prevent records from being erased or purged?
[6705]nS |
[6706]io haven ne
[6707]Se .
[6708]@ ea 228 Mr. Shaw. Nowadays, of course, we have laws which say
[6709]i i
[6711]23 Hyou can't destroy material. I would say that the safequards
[6712]ri) at again come back to the basic integrity of the people in the
[6714]2i jorganization. When you lose a President, you do not mess
[6719]it
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[6722]HW 50955 Docld: 32277214 Page 72
[6726]j | around, and I think everybody would have turned over every
[6730]possible stone to find out anything they could that would be
[6732]useful in determining the responsibility for that assassina-
[6734]|
[6735]4+} tion. |
[6736]1
[6737]E § I know I would have. I was a Kennedy man, and I imagine |
[6738]3 a there were a lot of us in the outfit who identified very |
[6739]S 7 closely with the President.
[6740]S 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever know anybody by the name of
[6741]: ¢ | Maurice Bishop? . |
[6742]: 1G | Mr. Shaw. No. _ ,
[6743]: ni Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether David Phillips, or |
[6744]g 12" anyone else, ever used the name Maurice Bishop as an operational
[6745]@ : 13 alias of some kind? :
[6746]z l4 . Mr.. Shaw. I am not aware that they did, but I would
[6747]: 5 | nave to answer your question no. Dave Phillips does not seem |
[6748]: 5 | Like a Maurice type, somehow. — :
[6749]4 7 | Mr. Goldsmith. Did Headquarters ever criticize the |
[6750]: ia Mexico City station in any way for its handling of the Oswald
[6751]2 |
[6752]: 2 | matter prior to the assassination?
[6753]S 20 | Mr. Shaw. Not that I am aware of. |
[6755]Mr. Goldsmith. For that matter, after the assassination?
[6757]Mr. Shaw. Not that I am aware of. I must add that ;
[6758]crititism would have been conveyed to the Chief of Station
[6760]rather than to the case officers.
[6762]as
[6763]pa
[6765]Mr. Goldsmith. When Oswald returned to the United: 5tates |
[6767]HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 3
[6771]i | from the ‘Soviet Union, would it have>been standard operating
[6773]be
[6775]procedure for the Agency to have interviewed him or debriefed
[6777]' him in some way?
[6781]Mr. Shaw. No. I think that it would have been more
[6783]E : | likely for the FBI to interview him.
[6785]Se 4 so Mr. Goldsmith. Why is that?
[6787]5 7 Mr. Shaw. Because he was an American citizen in the
[6789]S - United States. That was the FBI's territory.
[6793]J a) Mr.Goldsmith. Even though Oswald worked for several
[6796]= 16 : years -- not for several years, but for. sometime ~- ina
[6798]Es 7 radio factory while he was in Russia?
[6800]a i
[6802]oe Mr. Shaw. I was not aware that. he worked in a radio
[6804]1] | factory, but the fact that he had been in the Soviet Union,
[6805]| .
[6807]fa : the Fact that he had been in the United States Marine Corps,
[6808]d
[6810]1s | would indicate to me that if he had been interviewed, he
[6812]REPORTEES BULLDING ,
[6814]ig | would have been interviewed by the FBI.
[6816]4 7 | Mr. Goldsmith. Does not the Agency have a Domestic
[6818]5 is | Contacts Division, or service, which customarily interviews
[6820]an { .
[6822]z a people who have been abroad in Communist countries?
[6824]= 2 | Mr. Shaw. The Adency has the Domestic Contacts Division.
[6825]cee a | Tt used to be called 0/G Contacts. I never worked with those
[6827]@ a 22 people.
[6828]22 It is my understanding that what they do is routinely
[6830]of
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[6837]debrief, if the person is willing, businessmen -- in the old
[6839]days, tourists ~~ who had visited the Soviet Union, or to
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[6907]debrief a man who might have other involvement inthe Soviets
[6908]would not, I believe, have fallen within the purview of the
[6909]O/O Contacts Branch.
[6911]Mr. Goldsmith. Do you have any knowledge of the opera-
[6912]tional activity of the CI/SIG Branch of the CIA?
[6914]Mr. Shaw. No. I do not know what SIG means. I have
[6915]never heard of CI/SIG.
[6917]CI is Counterintelligence. staff, I don't know what Sic
[6918]is.
[6920]Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, I would like to thank you for
[6921]your testimony today. I especially would like to thank you
[6922]for spending all of this time with us. I know that you have
[6923]been here since approximately 3:00 o'clock or so and it is
[6924]now about 7:30. You have been very patient.
[6926]Customarily, whenever a witness testifies before the
[6927]Committee, the witness is given an opportunity to make a
[6928]statement for the record. This is not. a hearing, but I would
[6929]like to give you the same opportunity, if you would like to
[6931]take advantage of it.
[6933]Mr. Shaw. Well, I might take advantage of it. I had not.
[6935]thought about it until you mentioned it, but harkening back
[6937]to what I said a little while ago, I do believe that our
[6939]: organization was made up of, like Bill Colby has on the cover
[6940]: | of his book over there on the next table, of honorable men,
[6942]' and I do not think that anyone in the organization would have
[6944]4
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[6949]i
[6953]i
[6955]i | allowed any cover-up or any destruction of evidence which might
[6956]|
[6957]@ : 2 shed some light onithe assassination of President Kennedy. |
[6958]3 I might add a little vignette. We had what it called a |
[6959]a . 4 Libra ‘-Pecima. - which is a book that the people signed when |
[6960]z : | they come to a funeral or something. You may have run into
[6961]: < | something like this in the states, when you go in and sign
[6962]g 7 in at the funeral parlor that you were there or something.
[6963]S 2 | You express your regrets -- .pecima, in Spanish, means regrets,
[6964]: # | or sorrow. . |
[6965]so
[6966]z ‘0 | We had a book down in the lobby of the Embassy building
[6967]2 | ana when I came out one day shortly after the assassination |
[6968]: 12. |) somebody in the crowd yelled Spanish for Bob, and I went over |
[6969]@ : 13 Pana it. 2 was the Governor of the State of sonora, which is
[6970]2 fa ha big state up in northwestern Mexico. I had known him some
[6971]: 5 | years earlier. He was the son of the General who was the |
[6973]= Is) outstanding military leader of the Mexican Revolution from :
[6974]4 i7 | about 1913 to about 1920. |
[6975]3 1a | His father had been President of Mexico... His father was |
[6976]a
[6977]= | assassinated, having. been elected to a second term. He was
[6978]5 29 | already elected; he had not taken office. |
[6979]| |
[6981]I was profoundly touched by the presence of this son of |
[6983]an assassinated President in the lobby of our Embassy to, in
[6985]turn, express his sorrow to us for the assassination of our
[6987]President.
[6989]as
[6991]A
[6993]That does not. prove anything one way or another, but it
[6995]ALOERSON COMPS
[6997]HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 76
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[7021]322977214 Page 77
[7023]made a tremendous effect on me.
[7025]As I mentioned very early in our session today, I am not
[7026]aware that there was any exultation, satisfaction, or happi-
[7027]ness inside the Cuban Embassy over the assassination of the
[7028]President. And I think, and my personal belief is, that
[7029]everything points to Lee Harvey Oswald having done it, and
[7030]done it alone.
[7032]There is nothing I have ever seen or heard which would
[7033]lead me to. accept, for one moment, any complicity on the part
[7034]of my Agency or any other agency of the United States
[7035]government.
[7037]Mr. Goldsmith. Thank you, Mr. Shaw.
[7039]I would like to add that as soon as the transcript of
[7040]this deposition is available, we will be in touch with you
[7041]so that you can have an opportunity to review it for accuracy
[7042]and again, I would like to thank you for your time and help
[7043]today.
[7045]Mr. Shaw. I thank you, gentlemen.
[7047](Thereupon, at 7330 p.m. the Executive Session recessed.)
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[7117]HW 50955 Docld:
[7119]: CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
[7121]I, Rosemary c. Tascione, the officer before whom the
[7122]foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify that the
[7123]witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing deposition
[7124][was duly sworn by the Notary; that the testimony of said wit-
[7125]ness was taken by myself, stenomask reporter, and thereafter
[7126]reduced to typewriting under my direction; that I am neither
[7127]counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties
[7128]to the action in which this deposition was taken, and further,
[7129](that I am not.a relative or employee of any attorney or
[7130]; counsel employed by the parties thereto, nor financially
[7132]j . . . .
[7133]4 or otherwise interested in the cutcome of the action.
[7135]ae Roseinein, C- Laorisne»
[7137]a ; «REPORTER
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[7160]32977214 Page 78