[1]187-10005-10250| ~ | 2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992 |
[3]AGENCY :
[4]RECORD NUMBER :
[6]RECORDS SERIES :
[8]AGENCY FILE NUMBER :
[10]ORIGINATOR :
[12]Date: 10/05/93
[13]Page: 1
[14]JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM
[16]IDENTIFICATION FORM
[18]AGENCY INFORMATION
[20]SSCIA .
[21]157-10005-10250
[23]FROM: .
[24]TO :
[26]TITLE:
[27]TRANSCRIPT/RECORD OF
[29]DATE :
[30]PAGES :
[32]SUBJECTS :
[34]PROCEEDINGS/EXHIBITS
[36]06/25/75
[37]61
[39]PAGES 8-68 OF TESTIMONY BY SARNO, ALFRED J.
[41]DOCUMENT TYPE :
[42]CLASSIFICATION. :
[43]RESTRICTIONS :
[44]CURRENT STATUS :
[46]‘DATE OF LAST REVIEW :
[48]OPENING CRITERIA :
[50]COMMENTS :
[51]BOX 258-11
[53]wseeeema coms ewamaana me
[55]HW 50955 Docld:32202440 Page 1
[57]TRANSCRIPT
[58]T
[60]REFERRED
[62]10/05/93
[64][R] - ITEM IS RE
[66]t
[68]eT TET TSE
[70]to Criminal Sanctions
[71]Ro54
[72]Bill) _
[74]Ll iE
[75]rd
[77]SECU pe
[79]_ Che United States Senate
[81]Report of Proceedings 38-4 f
[83]CIA HAS NO OBJECTION TO
[84]DECLASSIFICATION AND/OR
[85]RELEASE a HIS DOCUMENT —_
[86]iT . aon
[87]AS SAN “i Peiday, Jun@ 25, 1975
[88]a [ ) - Washington, D.G
[90]COR _
[91]: (Stenotype Tape and Waste turned over
[92]ogee =O the Committee for destruction)
[94]410 FIRST STREET, 3. E.
[95]WASHINGTON, D. C. 20008
[99]HY 50955 Docld:32202440 Page 2 ° |
[101]WARD &« PAUL _ | :
[104]Pnone (Aree 202) 544-6000
[106]WARD & PAUL
[108]410 First Street, §.E€., Wasnington, O.C. 20003
[110]HY 50955
[112]2 TESTIMONY OF
[114]“ Alfred J. Sarno
[116]10
[120]12
[122]13
[124]14
[126]15
[128]16
[130]17
[132]18
[134]19
[136]20° -
[138]21
[142]23
[144]24
[146]25
[148]nocra:ad 02440 Page 3
[150]TOP SECRET
[152]CONTENTS
[154]TOP SECRET
[157]TOP SECRET
[159]g 6
[160]: |
[162]& 2 1 for /AMUTS?
[164]3 2 Mr. Sarno. I think from December, 1961 or January, 1962
[165]: xs) to September, 1967. Then from June -- August, 1968 to
[167]4 September, 1969.
[169]5 Mr. Wides. Now let ma go back, and can you give us a
[171]6 very brief summary of your positions with the Agency prior to
[172]7 that? I don't mean detailed -as to what you were doing.
[174]8 Mr. Sarno. I joined the Agency in September of 1951.
[176]9 Mr. Wides. Yes?
[178]10 Mr. Sarno. I was assigned to three countries before I
[180]11 hit Florida.
[182]4
[183]2
[184]®@ s. 12 Mr. Wides. All in the Western Hemisphere Division?
[185]8
[186]is]
[187]z 13 Mr. Sarno. All in the Western Hemisphere.
[188]3 .
[189]14 Mr. Wides. So you had rather long stations in each of
[191]15 those, three or four years?
[193]16 Mr. Sarno. (Nods in the affirmative)
[195]17 Mr. DeMarco. When did you become an American citizen?
[196]18 Mr. Sarno. I was born in Ohio.
[198]19 Mr. DeMarco. Had you been stationed with Mr. Phillips
[200]20.) in Cuba before you came to Miami, or were you in Cuba before
[202]Pal you came to Miami?
[204]410 First Street, 5.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003
[206]po Mr. Sarno. Yes.
[207]23 Mr. Wides. And that is when MESeNoeh was the Chief?
[208]a Pa Mr. Sarno. was the Chief.
[210]25 Mr. Wides. And you had contact with Mr. Phillips then?
[212]HY 50955 Docld: 32202440 Page. 4 TOP SECRET
[215]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[217]WARD & PAUL
[219]HY 409545
[221]. 410 First Street,’S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
[223]10
[227]12
[229]13
[231]14
[233]15
[235]16
[237]17
[239]18
[241]19
[245]el
[247]22
[249]235
[251]24
[253]25
[255]TOP SECRET
[257]10
[258]Mr. Wides. You never heard of any plots, nor of any
[259]arrested people attempting to shoot a bazooka when he was
[260]giving a speech at Havana Stadium?
[261]Mr. Sarno. No, sir.
[262]Mr. Wides. Let me go to the period when you went to
[263]Florida.
[265]When you first came here, that was before Station Chief
[267]Meal,
[269]shad moved the whole station to Miami?
[271]Mr+ Sarno. olgwasn't there. When I arrived in Florida,
[272]foo was not then -- no, sir, he was not the station chief.
[274]Mr. Wides. Who was the station chief?
[276]Mr. Sarno. I don't think I should give you his name.
[277]I don't know. YOu have the rest of all of them, but I can't
[278]recall --
[280]I can state that there were two station chiefs between!
[282]Mand Shackley, three of them, in fact.
[284]Mr. Wides. Shackley came in when, 1963?
[286]Mr. Sarno. '62.
[288]Mr. Wides. When in ‘62?
[290]Mr. Sarno. I think the spring of '62 is when it was.
[292]Mr. Wides. When was he replaced by Mr. Dimmer?
[294]Mr. Sarno. If I am not mistaken, it was in ‘64, I think.
[295]June, July, I think, something like that, of '64.
[297]Mr, Wides. And then Mr. Dimmer was replaced in '66 by
[299]Mr . Bea
[301]Docld: 34 07440 Page 5 TOP SECRET
[304]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[306]WARD & PAUL
[308]410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
[310]“HW 50955
[312]10
[316]12
[318]13
[320]14
[322]15
[324]16
[326]1?
[328]18
[330]19
[336]22
[338]23
[340]24
[344]TOP SECRET
[348]Mr. Sarno. Fecusicis |
[350]Mr. Wides. And then Mr. Esterline replaced Mr. Gites
[352]or was there someone batween?
[354]Mr. Sarno. Mr. Esterline did not replace Mr.
[356]Nobody replaced GEeSp because they closed up the station.
[358]Mr. Widas. We understand that the station was operating
[359]very recently.
[360]“Mr. Sarno. Well, I'm not saying -- you see, the station
[362]you spoke to befors, you spoke of, went out of business in
[364]June of 1960 when Mr. (hues
[366]Mr. Wides. I see.
[368]Now, what was the relationship between yourself and the
[369]station? Administratively, and in terms of reporting, when
[370]you first went down there. .
[372]Mr. Sarno. When I first went down there, I was outside.
[373]I beliave it was concerning clearances to get me into the
[374]station, because I had never been working in a station before,
[375]so there were special clearances. So at that time, those two
[376]months you're speaking of, I attended a course and I may have
[377]been Sent_out once or twice to interview a Cuban refugee or
[378]one of our agents who had left Cuba.
[380]Mr. Wides. And then you set up the ERS! program? Did
[381]you start that project; or was that started when you came in?
[383]Mr. Sarno. It had been started, the nucleus had been
[385]formed at that time. .
[387]Bocld: 337202440 Page 6 Tr. B @EfrReT
[390]Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000
[392]WARD & PAUL
[394]410 First Street, S.£., Washington, D.C. 20003
[396]HY 50955
[398]10
[402]12
[404]13
[406]14
[408]15
[410]16
[412]1?
[414]18
[416]19
[422]22
[424]23
[426]24
[428]25
[430]refused to disclose names.
[432]TOP SECRET
[434]13
[436]Mr. Wides. And except where there's a question of an
[437]agent under cover who would be possibly exposed to harm or
[438]that kind of thing in regard to the mention of other Agency
[439]people, certainly at the level of Mr. Shackley or other
[441]officials, Mr. Dimmar, and so forth, that the general procedures
[443]have been that people at the Agency or retirees have not
[445]Now, you certainly have your rights --
[447]Mr. Sarno. No, sir. I am not questioning you, or anything
[448]except I've been in this business a long time and I've never
[449]Mentioned anybody's name. Now if somebody were to tell me,
[450]if Seymour Bolton were to tell me that I could tell you all the
[451]names of all my supervisors and everything, it's perfectly all
[452]right. But I've never mentioned a name and I feel that I
[453]shouldn't mention a name. |
[455]Mr. Wides. Well, we may have to take a break and do that,
[457]but let me go on.
[459]With regard to the ‘Mines Cubans were
[461]af
[463]Suwa
[465]Mise” program, the
[466]not contract agents of the station, is that correct?
[467]Mr. Sarno. No, sir.
[469]Mr. Wides. They were proprietary employees essentially of
[471]shiv, essentially?
[473]Mr. Sarno.
[475]GINGER) was a group -- that proprietary was
[477]set up in September of 1968. Prior to that time they were a
[479]bunch of Cubans just living down in Miami.
[481]Docld: 3202440 Page 7 TALS GEC DET
[483]TOP SECRET
[485]3 14
[487]3 .
[488]2 1 Mr. Wides. And what was their relationship to the Agency
[490]3 2 | through you?
[491]: 5 Mr. Sarno. They were.a group of Cuban exiles who were |
[492]4 being funded to collect information, intelligence information, |
[493]|
[494]5 | on Cuba.
[495]|
[496]6 Mr. Wides.. They were paid agents?
[497]7 Mr. Sarno. They were paid agents. ——
[498]8 Mr. Wides. Soma of them received a fairly sophisticatad
[500]9 training in tradecraft, in some cases communications [@
[501]10 | operations with regard to a station in Florida, and so forth, |
[503]ll is that not correct? : i
[505]4 j
[506]5) }
[507]& x 12 Mr. Sarno. Sophisticated equipment, yes, sir. i
[508]a . i
[509]i
[510]: 13 Mr. Wides. And tradecraft, general tradecraft training?
[512]14 Mr. Sarno. General tradecraft training, yes, sir.
[514]15 || Communications.training -- well, most of them ‘weren't
[516]16 || Communicators, so they required vary little if they did :
[517]17 |} veceive training.
[519]18 . Mr. Wides. Would that put them in a little bit more
[520]19 || official status of some sort, whatevar the category is called,
[521]20: than simply being a paid informant?
[522]21|| Mr. Sarno. No, sir. They were just like paid informants |
[523]22 || excapt we provided them funds to operate with.
[525]23 They are no more -- they are not contract, we did net
[527]24 | have them under contract. ,
[529]410 First Street, 5.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003
[531]Bs Mr. Wides. But they would still gat training?
[533]BW 50955 Docld:32202440 Page 8 — Te,_Rm CESRDET
[535]TOP SECRET
[537]15.
[539]1 Mr. Sarno. Yes, sir.
[540]2 Mr. Wides. And the program first operated where? Where
[542]3 did you physically locate? Were you at the University of
[544]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[546]4 Miami, at the Naval Air Station at the begining?
[548]5 Mr. Sarno. No, sir.
[549]6 Mr. Wides. Where were you at first?
[550]y Mr. Sarno. Are you speaking of our station? Our station
[552]8 was physically at the ade. aes
[554]| but these Cubans did not
[556]9 know where the station was.
[557]10 Mr. Wides. And you just contacted them separately?
[558]11 Mr. Sarno. They had houses that they rented and they worked
[560]12 out of different houses, and there were many of them, so I
[562]can't recall them.
[563]13
[565]WARD & PAUL
[567]14 Mr. Wides. Did you have an office facility apart from the
[569]15 station?
[571]16 Mr. Sarno. Myself?
[572]17? Mr. Wides. Yes.
[573]18 Mr. Sarno. On One occasion, for a very short period, I
[575]19 had an office.
[577]20. Mr. Wides. Where was the
[579]Pe
[581]3
[582]3
[583]g
[584]a
[586]3 21 Mr. Sarno. The was located on the
[587]3
[588]a 202 Miami.
[589]H 23 Mr. Wides. Apart from the station?
[590]e 24 Mr. Sarno. No, sir.
[592]25 Mr. Wides. That was a cover?
[593]HW 50955 DocId:3#202440 Page 9 TOP SECRET
[596]TOP SECRET
[598]16
[600]1 Mr. Sarno. That was the station.
[601]2 Mr. Wides. And what was the mission and purpose of
[603]3 || @W@RS, when you first started out, as indicated in the project
[605]Prone (Area 202} 544-6000
[607]4 outline?
[609]5 Mr. Sarno. They were to collect intelligence on Cuba,
[611]6 debrief refugees and provide bodies for any possible operations
[612]i
[614]” required by the station.
[616]8 Mr. Wides. They were to debrief refugses?
[618]9 Mr. Sarno. Debrief rafugees, collect and evaluate, maintain
[620]10 records.
[622]MOIS: members into
[624]ll Mr. Wides. Was there a division of the
[626]12 two groups, with only a small group involving the debriefing
[628]13 of Cuban refugees?
[630]WARD & PAUL
[632]14 Mr. Sarno. Well, it wasn't too small a group, but if you
[633]15 would speak of the whole organization overall, yes, it was a
[634]16 small group.
[635]17 Mr. Wides. And at what point did you set up any cover.
[636]18 apart from the station as a proprietary or notional company;
[638]g i Wlpaet people and the Miami station? In other
[640]8 19 in between the @uig) people an e} ni?
[642]3 20. words, were the companies prior to the Latin America @ogHial, -
[646]é 2] sh company that preceeded it, in time?
[648]3
[650]Wi 20 Mr. Sarno. In the time that I handled. them, which is
[652]@: 93 || up to the &NSER, I think there were three, three covers all
[654]FA ;
[656]f 24 told, or perhaps four. I think we had our debriefing, you
[657]25 || know, under one cover.
[659]HW 50955 Docld:392707440 Page 10 TMmDd CefrDp ET
[661]Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000
[663]WARD & PAUL
[665]410 First Street, $.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
[667]HW 50955
[669]10
[673]12
[675]13
[677]14
[679]15
[681]16
[683]17
[685]18
[687]19
[691]21
[693]22
[695]25
[697]24
[699]25
[701]TOP SECRET
[703]17
[705]Mr. Wides. That was from the start? You had a separate
[706]cover for the debriefing?
[708]Mr. Sarno. Well, from the start we didn't have a place
[709]for them, and it wasn't pulled together as a debriefing unit.
[710]When a large flow of refugees started to come in is when we set |
[711]up the special unit.
[713]Mr. Wides. When was that?
[715]Mr. Sarno. Well, they cut off --
[717]Mr. Wides. '64, '63?
[719]Mr. Sarno. It could have been '62, late '62 or '63. And
[721]before, wa used to send our debriefers, they were within the
[723]CUIGSe group, specialists in debriefing, area specialists is
[724]the kind we used. And we would go out to the reception center
[725]and check around and see who had coma out of the particular
[726]area. |
[728]Mr. Wides. At Opa-Locka?
[730]Mr. Sarno. At Opa-Locka.
[732]And our debriefers would go out and check around with the
[734]people who came in and try to spot somebody who would be.
[735]interesting to interview, debrief, concerning the particular
[736]area. And so thay usually picked them up in a car and either
[737]took them to a restaurant or took them to a motel or something
[738]and would debrief them. And then we found that it would be
[739]better to get a building for them to be in where we located
[741]them altogether, where they could prepare their reports and
[743]Docld: 32202440 Page 11 TOP SECRET
[745]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[747]WARD & PAUL
[749]410 First Street, S.E., Washington, O.C. 20003
[751]HW 50955
[753]10
[755]11
[757]12
[759]13
[761]14
[763]15
[765]16
[767]17
[769]18
[771]19
[775]21
[777]22
[779]23
[781]24
[783]25
[785]DoclId: 322702440 Page 12 TOP SECRET
[787]TOP SECRET
[789]18
[791]everything.
[793]Mr. Wides. And so that's when you first set up the
[794]proprietary for the smaller debriefing component of aimee
[796]Mr. Sarno. Well, I set up the proprietaries, the notionarv
[797]company for a small debriafing office, and at the same time,
[798]we rented a building, a larger building, and they used to
[799]operate in Coral Gables, received some publicity and wa moved
[800]them out of Coral Gables to near the airport in a building wheres
[802]the main office was, where this main office was, where these
[804]reports from the debriefers or any other information was
[805]. (
[807]collected would be processed, typed in finished form, translated
[808]and provided to us.
[810]Mr. Wides. About how many people did you have in AMORS.
[812]Cubans at that time?
[813]Mr. Sarno. Well, that's difficult to say.
[814]Mrs Wides. 150? Would you say 150?
[815]Mr. Sarno. I would say inside, outside, it could be
[817]close to 150.
[819]Mr. Wides. Did you have more than a dozen or so working
[820]in the component on debriefing?
[821]_ Mr. Sarno. As I recall, at one time -~- as I recall it,
[822]we had about 22, 23 people working in debriefing.
[823]Mr. Wides. And apart from those Cubans, you had a staff
[824]under you of assistants and secretaries who were Agency
[826]assigned personnel?
[829]Pnone (Area 202} 544-6000
[831]WARD & PAUL
[833]410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
[835]HW 50955
[837]10
[841]le
[843]13
[845]14
[847]15
[849]16
[851]17?
[853]18
[859]21
[861]22
[863]23
[865]24
[867]25
[869]TOP SECRET
[871]19
[873]Mr. Sarno. Yes.
[875]Mr. Wides. What kind of staff did you have?
[877]Mr. Sarno. Well, it started off originally since we
[878]weren't big, I started off with one secretary, and it eventually
[879]ended up that there were one or two Intel assistants --
[881]Mr. Wides. These were Agency personnel?
[883]Mr. Sarno. Agency personnel.
[885]~-.and two or three case officers.
[887]Mr. Wides. The case officers handled segments of the
[889]Mr. Sarno. Segments of the @igugs
[891]Mr. Wides. Now, the other, speaking very roughly, hundred
[892]and fifty or so MGs, Cubans, you said some twenty were
[893]involved when the debriefing program intensified. What were
[894]the other hundred~odd Cubans involved in?
[896]Mr. Sarno. Well, we had records personnel, we had
[897]I would say six or seven who only worked in records and main-
[898]taining of files, and general index cards, and that was it.
[899]Then we had what we called our reports section which may have
[900]had about fifteen people, twenty people, who wrote reports,
[901]checked them out, cross-referenced, and everything else that
[902]was involved in that.
[904]Mr. Wides. What kind of reports did they write? What
[906]were they writing reports about?
[908]Mr. Sarno. Economic -- whatever they were learning from
[910]Docld: 382702440 Page 13 Tfiw CeéfebDeT
[912]TOP SECRET
[914]3 21
[915]3
[916]5 1 against Cuba, and had weapons they weren't supposed to have.
[917]3
[918]: 2 Mr. Wides. Like Alpha-66?
[919]3 3 _ Mr. Sarno. Alpha-66, there were many of them.
[920]4 And we usually had ona of our outside types, either
[921]5 recruit or get next to an individual of the group and he would
[922]6 penetrate the group himself to report to us what they were
[923]vi doing.
[924]8 Mr. Wides. Do you recall the flights of the Diaz, or one
[925]9 of the Diz brothers, over Havana dropping leaflets?
[926]10 Mr. Sarno. What date was it?
[927]11 Mr. Wides. I believe it was quite early, and it was not
[928]“
[929]@ i 12 in connection with the gQilisn
[930]13 Mr. Sarno. I know the Diaz brothers.
[931]3
[932]14 Mr. Wides. Do you recall hearing of flights with -- one
[933]15 of them with Frank Sturgis over Havana dropping leaflets?
[935]16 Mr. Sarno. No, sir.
[936]1? Mr. Wides. It was fairly widely known.
[937]18 Mr. Sarno. Well, I didn’t gat into Cubans until maybe
[939]19 it was June of '60, but the only leaflets I ever saw fly over
[940]20-| Cuba was_the day before the invasion. Those were the only
[942]21 ones I saw.
[944]22 Mr. Wides. When you were in Miami, did you havea any
[946]23 | Contact with Frank Sturgis, Frank Fiorini?
[948]410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
[950]24 Mr. Sarno. Never, never. To my knowledge, he never worke
[952]25 for us.
[954]HW 50955 Docla:3#202440 Page i4 Teap GEC DET
[957]T
[958]OP SECRET .
[959]g .
[960]@ i 1 Mr. Wides. Not getting back to the bulk of the Qa
[961]: 2 group, apart from the reporting on refugees and the efforts
[962]i 3 to keep tabs, which I guess isa summary of what you are
[963]4 saying on what exile groups might be doing that the government
[964]5 || might otherwise not know about, is it correct that there was
[965]|
[966]6 | surveillance of the Miami community generally with regard to
[967]9 possible Castro agents?
[968]B Mr. Sarno. Not that I know of.
[969]9 . Mr. Wides. There was no counterintelligence program in
[970]io || the
[971]11 Mr. Sarno. We had a counterintelligance component in the
[972]@ 2 12 | QQeise Program.
[973]13 Mr. Wides. Why don't you describe that?
[974]° 14 Mr. Sarno. The counterintelligence program consisted of
[975]15 | Very capable Cubans who knew of thea former -~- the set-up of
[976]16 the intelligence agency inside of Cuba, so if anybody ware to
[977]17 come out, any refugee were to come out and name an individual
[978]18 that was a friend of theirs that we knaw or suspected of
[979]3 19 working for the internal security which was the DSE or their
[980]: 20: external service, the DGI, our counterintelligence group or
[981]: 21 “one of the individuals would go out and debrief the fellow
[982]rf 22 and collect names, and prepare reports on it, and they maintainad
[983]@ : 23 files, and that is what it igs. |
[984]i 24 They never got under a surveillance of any of them, becaus
[985]. 5 || once a report was written they suspected somebody. They maintailn-
[987]HY 50955 Docld: 33202440 Page 15 Tri Dp GEfDR ET
[989]TOP SECRET
[991]: 24
[992]q
[993]3 a a file of them, and when Cuban refugees would come in, they
[994]4 2 would receive lists of. names to check in their files, and if
[995]F 5 they suspected one, then they would gather all of the
[996]4 information possible on this individual, prepare a report,
[997]5 name their sources, and they would pass it to the station.
[998]6 The station in turn would prepare a memorandum and send it to
[999]? the bureau.
[1000]8 Mr. Wides. Is it your sworn testimony that you never knew
[1001]9 of any surveillances or efforts to penetrate groups for |
[1002]10 counterintelligence purposes by Cubans under your supervision?
[1003]11 Mr. Sarno. No, sir, no. You're speaking of penetrating
[1004]le groups, yes. They penetrated groups. Surveillance -- I never
[1006]WARD & PAUL
[1008]13 sant them out on a mission to surveil anybody concerning whethe
[1009]14 they were suspect or whatever.
[1010]15 Mr. Wida@s. Was there any surveillance of Cubans in Miami
[1012]16 conducted by -- whether it was in cooperation with the Bureau
[1014]17 or not -~ conducted by any of the GUUS
[1016]‘Cubans that you were
[1018]13 aware of?
[1020]19 Mr. Sarno. I cannot recall if there ever was.
[1022]20° Mr._Wides. I don't mean a specific one.
[1024]21 Mr. Sarno. I don't recall ever giving them any assignments.
[1025]22 Mr. Wides.’ I'm not talking about assignments, I'm
[1027]23 || talking about whether you're aware of their conducting --
[1029]24 Mr. Sarno. As I say, I do not recall them conducting
[1031]410 First Street, S.£., Washington, 0.C. 20003
[1033]any Surveillance on anybody.
[1035]25
[1036]HW 50955 sects 027440 Page 16 TAD €EbFRetTt
[1038]Pnone (Area 202)944-6000
[1040]10
[1044]12
[1046]13
[1048]WARD & PAUL
[1050]14
[1052]15
[1054]16
[1056]17
[1058]18
[1060]19
[1062]al
[1064]22
[1066]23
[1068]24
[1070]410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003
[1072]29
[1074]HW 50955 Docid: 30202440
[1076]20:
[1078]TOP SECRET
[1080]24
[1082]Mr. Wides. Any telephone taps?
[1084]Mr. Sarno. Never any telephone taps, we didn't have
[1085]telephone tap capability.
[1087]Mr. Wides. Any photography?
[1088]Mr. Sarno. We had a photographer.
[1090]Mr. Wides. When was he used? In what circumstances?
[1092]Mr. Sarno. Well, the biggest majority of his work was
[1093]to copy certain documents.
[1094]Mr. Wides. I mean photographic surveillance.
[1096]Mr. Sarno. There may have been. I really can't state
[1097]which one he was used on if he was sever used for photographic
[1098]surveillancs.
[1099]Mr. Wides. Which what he was used on?
[1100]Mr. Sarno. I mean if he was used on photographic
[1101]surveillance. I don't recall ever ordering him out on photo-
[1102]graphic surveillance.
[1103]Mr. Wides. Do you recall if there ever was any photo-
[1104]graphic surveillance carriad out by any of the afi?
[1105]I do not recall.
[1107]Mr. Sarno. I have no recollection.
[1109]Mr. Wides.
[1111]on
[1113]Were you getting reports of any sort, whether
[1114]you would characterize it as surveillance or not; on people
[1115]who had already coma and were in Miami as distinct from the
[1117]interview reports when the refugees first came?
[1119]Isn't it correct that the @iuu personnel were providing
[1121]you with reports on Cubans who were already in Miami?
[1123]TOP SECRET
[1125]Page 17
[1128]Prone {Area 202) 544-6000
[1130]WARD & PAUL
[1132]410 First Street, S.E., Washington, O.C. 20003
[1134]HW 50955
[1136]10
[1138]li
[1140]12
[1142]13
[1144]14
[1146]15
[1148]16
[1150]17
[1152]18
[1154]19
[1158]21
[1162]25
[1164]24
[1166]25
[1168]TOP SECRET
[1170]25
[1172]Mr. Sarno. Yes, sir.
[1174]Mr. Wides. Would you describe that program?
[1176]Mr. Sarno. Certainly. As I said, they penetrated these
[1177]groups, they would go around and then they would sit and talk
[1178]and.as you. would’ call it, ‘the’surveillance, the fact that they
[1179]penetrated, they would sit at the table and report on the
[1180]individual and what the individual said and what they were
[1182]Planning. We call it penetration.
[1184]To me, surveillance is to put two men on the street
[1185]following somabody from one place to another.
[1187]Mr. Wides. Were there ever occasions when the station
[1188]was suspicious as to whether Cubans in Miami might be Castro
[1189]agents that you were aware of?
[1191]Mr. Sarno. Many.
[1193]Mr. Wides. Did they ever ask.for any assistance in the
[1195]group in trying to keep tabs on those individuals or
[1197]to test their suspicions?
[1198]Mr. Sarno. No, sir.
[1199]Mr. Wides. Who would do that?
[1200]Mr. Sarno. It would be the CI section of the station.
[1202]Mr. Wides. You don't recall any situation in which -
[1204]Mr Sarno. In which
[1206]Geist participated? No, sir.
[1207]Mr. Wides. -- working with the FBI.
[1208]Mr. Sarno. The FBI occasionally would ask for the
[1210]sarvices of one of the dima, but it was mainly not to survei
[1212]Docld:3 2O2440 Page 18 TAD CEFRDET
[1214]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[1216]WARD & PAUL
[1218]416 First Street, $.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
[1220]HW 50955
[1222]10
[1226]12
[1228]13
[1230]14
[1232]15
[1234]16
[1236]17
[1238]18
[1240]19
[1244]al
[1246]22
[1248]23
[1250]RA
[1252]25
[1254]TOP SECRET
[1256]26
[1258]anybody. It was to provide information to them because their
[1259]name would come up ‘somewhere in a case.
[1261]Mr. Wides. What kind of assistance? You mean more than
[1262]just a chance to interview them?
[1264]Mr. Sarno. No, just intarview. They never usad them to
[1265]Yun a man on the street or anything like that, no, sir.
[1267]They tried to get one individual one tima and they didn't know
[1268]that he worked for us and they tried to hire him and he came
[1269]back and reported it. We had to advise them that he was
[1270]already working for us.
[1272]Mr. Wides. And you had 115 men and:.all---
[1274]Mr. Sarno. There were women also, sir.
[1276]Mr. Wides. And women, and all they were doing was
[1277]interviewing refugees and writing reports on axile potential
[1278]activities against Cuba?
[1280]Mr. Sarno. I would say that was the biggest majority of
[1281]their job.
[1283]Mr. Wides. What was the rest of it?
[1285]Mrz Sarno. They also went out, if our station was going
[1287]to run an operation and they needed X amount of bodies, certain
[1289]specialized personnel, the @@UAS would go and locate the
[1290]personnel, talk to them, spot them, gat their personal history
[1291]from them, send it in, and the:-people would be traced out and
[1293]checked and cleared and eventually introduced to the station
[1295]case officer who would use them in our operations.
[1297]Docld: 323707440 Page 19 Tr DB EEF REPT
[1300]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[1302]WARD & PAUL
[1304]4106 First Street, S-E., Washington, O.C. 20003
[1306]HY 409545
[1308]10
[1312]12
[1314]13
[1316]14
[1318]15
[1320]16
[1322]17
[1324]18
[1326]19
[1330]21
[1332]22
[1334]25
[1336]24
[1338]25
[1340]Baocld:32
[1342]TOP SECRET
[1344]27
[1346]Mr. Wides. Who arranged for the training at the training
[1348]station at £
[1350]Mr. Sarno. For whom?
[1352]Mr. Wides. When the §Xius
[1354]various kind of tradecraft, who would arrange that, yourself?
[1356]Mr. Sarno. December, 1961 when I took it over there were
[1357]only three cases of ECGS who were sent away for special
[1358]training. Three cases, three individuals.
[1360]One came hera to Washington, the other was going to be
[1361]loaned to a station overseas. He came up and received trainings
[1362]The majority of the training given to the MG/G} was down in
[1363]Miami, Florida.
[1365]Mr. Wides. And what kind was that?
[1367]Mr. Sarno. Basic tradecraft, reports writing --
[1369]Mr. Wides. Did they ever get training in surveillance?
[1371]Mr. Sarno. Yes, they received training in surveillance.
[1373]Mr. Wides. Why did they get that?
[1375]Mr. Sarno. Well, that is part of their program of
[1377]-training them as a group.
[1379]Mr. Wides. Even though there was no use of them for
[1380]surveillance purposes?
[1382]Mr. Sarno. I do not recall, sir, ever.sending them out
[1383]on a surveillance.
[1385]Mr. DeMarco. Who conducted the training?
[1387]Mr. Sarno. Our Training Branch, personnel from our
[1389]02440 Page 20 TOP SECRET
[1391]Prone (Area 202) 544-6000
[1393]WARD & PAUL
[1395]ey)
[1397]410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003
[1399]HW 50955
[1401]15
[1403]16
[1405]17
[1407]18
[1409]19
[1413]21
[1415]22
[1417]23,
[1419]24
[1421]25
[1423]TOP SECRET
[1425]28
[1426]Training Branch.
[1428]Mr. DeMarco. From Washington?
[1430]Mr. Sarno. Yes.
[1432]Mr. Wides. You say the majority of the training was in
[1433]Florida. What period ara we talking about, throughout the
[1434]period?
[1436]Mr. Sarno. It could be spread over. Reports writing,
[1437]for instance, when the Agency, or when the station was being
[1438]cut back in personnel, this group used to produce tons of
[1439]Yeports, and when our station was being cut, the staff was
[1440]being cut, I convinced the Chief of Station into having the
[1441]reports officers, for instance, trained to ‘prepare reports
[1442]which would require very little editing or preparation once
[1443]it arrived in the station, which would take a load off the
[1444]station, and it was agreed to.
[1446]Mr. Wides. You arranged in general for the training or
[1447]the training office?
[1449]Mr. Sarno. I never trained.
[1453]one
[1455]Mr. Wides. But they worked through you administratively?
[1456]Mr. Sarno. Yes.
[1458]Mr. Wides. So you were familiar with all the training
[1460](TES personnel would have got?
[1461]Mr. Sarno. I would say all of the training that they
[1462]received during the period I was with them, with the exception
[1464]of that one year there, and also I must ‘state that although I
[1466]Docld: 39202440 Page 21 TOP GECDET
[1469]TOP SECRET
[1471]30
[1472]1 Mr. Wides. Thsre were :some new people coming in?
[1473]° Mr. Sarno. Yes. _ Some of the people would move, they got
[1475]3 a job that paid them more, but there were very few that came
[1477]Phone (Area 262) 544-6000
[1479]4 in after the original, say about 1964 I would say it was well
[1480]5 astablished and very few dropped out or were taken aboard there-
[1481]6 after.
[1483]9 Mr. Wides. They all got what you referred to earlier as
[1485]8 basic tradecraft training?
[1487]9 Mr. Sarno. No, not all of them.
[1488]10 Mr. Wides. How many?
[1489]ll Mr. Sarno. There were very few of them. in the original
[1491]12 || group. I never had them trained in basic tradecraft. The
[1493]WARD & PAUL
[1495]13 original group which I took over which, if I am not mistaken,
[1497]14 || Was about eighteen of them, and I understand that prior to
[1499]15 the Bay of Pigs --
[1501]16 Mr. Wides. Eighteen in @@0GS,0r eighteen in training?
[1503]7 Mr. Sarne. Eighteen in Mijiujgsr all told.
[1505]I understood that prior to the Bay of Pigs these
[1507]18 ABO
[1509]19 had been given basic tradacraft training. I never once sent
[1511]29 | them out to receive basic tradecraft training.
[1512]21 Mr. Wides. After you came -- when you came there were
[1514]22 | eighteen fitch and eventually we're talking about 150, roughly,
[1516]23 or more?
[1518]Mr. Sarno. Yes, sir.
[1520]410 First Street, S.E., Washington, O.C. 20003
[1522]24
[1524]25 Mr. Wides. And you never knew of any of the people who
[1526]HW 50955 Docld:39202440 Page 22 TB GEfRET
[1528]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[1530]WARD & PAUL
[1532]HY 409545
[1534]410 First Street, $.E., Wasnington, O.C. 20003
[1536]10
[1538]11
[1540]12
[1542]13
[1544]14
[1546]15
[1548]16
[1550]17
[1552]18
[1554]19
[1558]21
[1559]22
[1560]23
[1561]24
[1563]25
[1565]TOP SECRET
[1566]31
[1567]joined QMURy after you took over getting general tradecraft?
[1569]Mr. Sarno. No, sir, no, sir.
[1571]Mr. Wides. And to your knowledge it was only report
[1572]writing?
[1574]Mr. Sarno. Well, they trained them in each one of the
[1575]sections, and I didn't train the debriefers, so if a new man
[1576]was hired and he was put in a debriefing, he was trained u
[1577]usually by the Chief of the Debriefing Group,- he was put in
[1578]there to work along with other dabriefers to catch onto the
[1579]thing.
[1581]Mr. Wides. Now your testimony with regard to surveillance
[1582]training, who issued that, or how many people?
[1584]Mr. Sarno. If I am not mistaken, it was four or five.
[1586]Mr. Wides. When you first came, or shortly therafter?
[1588]Mr. Sarno. Yes, it was all at the -- now, now, just one
[1589]Second, because I went in surveillance training myself.
[1591]I don't racall whether this four or five whom we trained
[1592]in surveillance were trained while I had them or they were
[1593]trained before I took them.
[1595]Mr...Wides. Now after that, those four or five, no other
[1597]GUS, people to your knowledge received any surveillance
[1599]training, is that your testimony?
[1600]Mr. Sarno. That is trua, sir.
[1601]Mr. Wides. What about picks and locks?
[1603]Mr. Sarno. Nobody.
[1605]a 02440 Page 23 TAB GECRBET
[1608]TOP SECRET
[1609]3 32
[1610]@ é 1 Mr. Wides. That you know of received --
[1611]: 2 Mr. Sarno. Not a single one that' I know of.
[1612]F 3 Mr. Wides. Did you know anybody at Ai who had
[1613]4 capability of any previous experience at picks and locks,
[1614]5 surreptitious entry?
[1615]6 Mr. Sarno. No, sir.
[1617]9 Mr. Wides. You were not aware of anyone at gi
[1618]8 that capability? |
[1620]9 Mr. Sarno. No, sir.
[1622]10 Mr. Wides. You never discussed it with anyone at the
[1626]12 Mr. Sarno. Possibly.
[1628]13 Mr. Wides. Well, let me ask the question, ~ the
[1630]WARD & FAUL
[1632]14 capabilities in the area of surreptitious entry or picking
[1634]15 locks and no part of (iiWgs; people in all those years?
[1635]16 Mr. Sarno. No, sir.
[1636]17 Mr. Wides. Ware the group that ware locat din your
[1638]18 homestate that were involved in the interception of any
[1640]traffic, radio traffic or Cubar, were they under your supervisign’
[1642]19
[1643]20. Mr. Sarno. They were originally under my supervision,
[1644]21 and later the station brought an individual down from Head-
[1646]22 quarters and took over that operation.
[1648]23 Mr. Wides. And when was that?
[1650]410 First Street, S.£., Washington, O.C. 20003
[1652]24 Mr. Sarno. Well, the station always had somebody at the
[1654]25 station who was reviewing all of their work and passing
[1656]WW 50955 DoclId:3 bovaso Page 24 TOP GECBET
[1658]TOP SECRET
[1660]33
[1662]1 instructions. I handled them for a long time.
[1664]2 Mr. Wides. Until roughly?
[1666]Phones (Area 202) 544-6000
[1668]3 Mr. Sarno. Until roughly the arrival of Mrgoimmer. You
[1670]4 | have the date there. I think Mr paniners\the one who brought
[1672]i
[1673]5 | down the fellow from Headquarters.
[1674]6 Mr. Wides. And these people received some training
[1676]” regarding the use of (PRESE Es pt: equipment even if they had
[1678]& | Some experience as radio operators, isn't that true?
[1680]9 Mr. Sarno. Sir, I really don't know.
[1682]LO I know that I never brought an instructor down to train
[1683]Ll them in the use of radio equipment. Thase individuals had
[1685]12 worked in this work in Cuba before they came out --
[1687]13. Mr. Wides. In fntefcapt) work like this?
[1689]WARD & PAUL
[1691]14 Mr. Sarno. InfintéP@spt work, yes. We had two very
[1692]15 || brilliant fellows who were the top peonle in the communications |
[1694]16 field in Cuba.
[1696]1? And most of the radio operators had had up to twenty
[1698]18 years experience, they were alderly people, and they had been
[1700]19 in radio and they could read and they could sand it out very
[1702]20 well. .
[1703]21 ; Mr. Wides. So your testimony is that --
[1704]22 Mr. Sarno. I do not recall tham ever having been
[1706]23 trained by anybody, in any sense.
[1708]24 Mr. Wides. Or communications in general?
[1710]410 Fiest Seveat, $.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003
[1712]Mr. Sarno. Now communications generally, I cannot say thas.
[1714]25
[1716]HW 50955 Docld: 34202440 Page 25 TOP SECRET 5
[1718]Phone (Marea 202) 544-6000
[1720]WARD & PAUL
[1722]416 First Street, S.£., Washington, D.C. 20003
[1724]HY 409545
[1726]10
[1730]Le
[1732]13
[1734]14
[1736]15
[1738]16
[1740]17
[1742]18
[1744]19
[1750]22
[1752]235
[1754]24
[1756]25
[1758]Bactld:3
[1760]TOP SECRET
[1762]34
[1764]because several of the @ifiijfispwere trained and several of them
[1766]who Were brought out of Cuba, because several of them were in
[1767]Cuba as radio operators and then they came out. They were
[1768]in the Miami group not operating radios, but --
[1770]Mr. Wides. But during your administration of the (i,
[1771]group as case officer, you don't recall any training being
[1772]given in communications?
[1774]Mr. Sarno. No, sir.
[1776]Mr. Wides. Do you recall any cooperation of the ¢
[1778]People with the FBI and other Federal agencies trying to DF
[1779]and identify suspected illegal wireless operators in Miami,
[1781]Castro agents?
[1783]Mr. Sarno. No, sir, they nevar did.
[1785]Mr. Wides. @QWSwas not involved in that?
[1787]Mr. Sarno. No, I naver heard of any. You must remember
[1788]that when Dimmer came down and brought the fellow, I navar Saw
[1789]the traffic anymore, but during the period that I was looking
[1790]at the traffic, and I was directing that special intercept
[1791]group as part of the igs, r never once gave them an order
[1793]and never saw any that they did.
[1795]Mr. Wides. When Mr. Shackley was the station chief, did
[1796]|
[1798]you report to him or someone selse?
[1800]Mr. Sarno. I reported to my branch chief.
[1801]|
[1803]Mr. Wides. And what was’ that branch?
[1805]Mr. Sarno. FI Branch, Foreign Intelligence.
[1807]02440 Page 26 TOP SECRET
[1809]Prone (Area 202) 544-6000
[1811]WARD &@ PAUL
[1815]410 First Street, S.E., Wasnington, O.C. 20003
[1817]HY 409545
[1819]10
[1823]12
[1825]13
[1827]14
[1829]15
[1831]16
[1833]17
[1835]18
[1837]19
[1839]20:
[1841]el
[1843]22
[1845]23
[1847]24
[1849]25
[1851]Docld: 372707440 Page 27
[1853]TOP SECRET
[1855]1
[1856]1
[1858]35
[1860]Mr. Wides. And that was the same procedure throughout
[1861]the period?
[1863]Mr. Sarno. Yes, sir. . -
[1865]Mr. Wides. Up til '67?
[1867]Mr. Sarno. Through '67. Well, let's see, now. No, sir.
[1868]Well, it was, because later they made the AQ group, it
[1869]became a branch, and they brought in a very senior officer to
[1870]be the Branch Ghief, and I was considered the Deputy Branch
[1871]Chief. Mr. Dimmer brought in the senior officer.
[1873]Mr. Wides. And you don't feel like you can give us his
[1874]name?
[1876]Mr. Sarno. There's no reason not to. He is retired now.
[1877]Bill Caldwell.
[1879]Mr. Wides. What contact did you have with a man who
[1880]called himself {
[1882]| Mr. Sarno.
[1883]Chief.
[1884]Mr, Wides.
[1886]Mr. Sarno.
[1888]Mr. Wides. And he was your principal contact?
[1890]Mr. Sarno. Hae was my principal -- he was thse head, the
[1892]Cuban head of it.
[1894]Mr. Wides. Are you familiar with the history of the {lpm
[1896]group that he prepared in the late '60's, or worked on?
[1898]Mr Sarno. In the late "60's?
[1900]TOP SECRET
[1903]Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000
[1905]WARD & PAUL
[1907]410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003
[1909]HW 50955
[1911]10
[1913]11
[1915]le
[1917]13
[1919]14
[1921]15
[1923]16
[1925]17.
[1927]18
[1929]19
[1933]21
[1934]22
[1935]23
[1936]24
[1938]29
[1940]Docld:32 02440 Page 28 TOP SECE
[1942]36
[1943]Mr. Wides. I thought so. I thought in '66 or '67,
[1944]is what I ‘meant, that he had worked on the history of the
[1946]group.
[1948]Mr. Sarno. Well, no.
[1949]Mr. Wides. Are you familiar with the written history of
[1951]the
[1953]QW program?
[1955]Mr. Sarno. I have never seen it. I had-established the
[1956]policy that every three months he had to write up about the
[1957]group, so all of that, I understand, was all compiled into the
[1958]history, so I don't know.
[1960]Mr. Wides. As part of the Miami Station?
[1962]Mr. Sarno. As part of the Miami Station, so I don't think
[1964]-he was told in '66 or '67, start all over and prepare it.
[1966]Mr. Wides. You think it was a consolidation?
[1967]Mr. Sarno. I think it was consolidated over the vears.
[1968]Mr. Wides. And this is antitled what, do you know?
[1970]Mr. Sarno. I supposed it would be The History of the
[1972]Mr. Wides. And you've never seen it?
[1974]Mr, Sarno. I've never seen it.
[1976]Mr. Wides. Do you know if it's at Headquarters in the
[1977]Latin American Division?
[1979]Mr. Sarno. I do not know.
[1981]Mr. Wides. When the Cuban Operations Group was set up --
[1983]let's go back -- in '61 when you took over was approximately
[1985]ET
[1988]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[1990]WARG & PAUL
[1992]410 First Street, S.E., Wasnengton, D.C. 20003
[1994]HW 50955
[1996]10
[1998]11
[2000]le
[2002]13
[2004]14
[2006]15
[2008]16
[2010]17
[2012]18
[2014]19
[2018]21
[2020]22
[2022]23
[2024]24
[2026]25
[2028]TOP SECRET
[2030]37
[2032]the period when Mr. Harvey was setting up the staff Task Force
[2033]W, is that corract?
[2035]What contact, if any, did you’ have with Task Force W
[2036]personnel as distinct from the station itself?
[2038]Mr. Sarno. None whatsoever.
[2040]Mr. Wides. They never came down and spoke to you?
[2042]Mr. Sarno. When I came out of Cuba, when I escaped from
[2043]Cuba, I was brought up here to Headquarters and debriefed, so
[2044]I imagine that the person that debriefed me, this is in July
[2045]of ‘61, I would imagine that individual was part of the Task
[2046]Force.
[2048]Mr. Wides. I think that was still in the Division. They
[2049]had not split the Task Force until the winter of 'éL, "62.
[2051]Mr. Sarno. I see. Well --
[2053]Mr. Wides. But after that when you were in Florida, you
[2054]had no contact with anyone, to your knowledge, other than the
[2055]Station personnel?
[2057]Mr. Sarno. Wall, I don't know. Occasionally they would
[2058]call me to Washington to discuss something.
[2060]Mr. Wides. And did you discuss something with people in
[2061]the Task Force, the Cuban Task Force?
[2063]Mr. Sarno. The Cuban Task Force.
[2065]Mr. Widas.
[2067]Mr. Sarno.
[2069]Mr. Wides. And did you have any contact with Desmond
[2071]sects poss Page 29 TAD GEfRET
[2074]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[2076]WARD & PAUL
[2078]410 First Street, S.E., Wasnington, 0.C. 20003
[2080]HW 50955
[2082]10
[2086]12
[2088]13
[2090]14
[2092]15
[2094]16
[2096]17
[2098]18
[2100]19
[2104]21
[2106]22
[2108]23
[2110]24
[2112]25
[2114]TOP SECRET
[2116]38
[2118]FitzGerald when it became the Special Activities Staff and he
[2119]took it over?
[2121]Mr. Sarno. I know Desmond FitzGerald, or I knaw him, and
[2122]discussed operations with him -- no, I naver sat down and
[2123]discussed an operation. I met him at a party, and that was all.
[2125]Mr. Wides. And when you came to Washington what kind of
[2127]discussions would you have ahout the St program?
[2129]Mr. Sarno. I made so many trips to Washington, I say I
[2130]was also the case officer, I used to travel and recruit people. |
[2131]I do not specifically recall ever being called to Washington to
[2133]discuss Gag,
[2135]Mr. Wides. But do you recall ever discussing the gy
[2137]program and the Cubans in it while you were in Washington?
[2138]Mr. Sarno. Well, if I would come up on a trip and some of
[2139]the people who were sitting on a desk hare who were maintaining
[2141]the records and everything of the @M@ueS, I suppose, ves, they
[2143]would come around and discuss parhaps the budget or perhaps
[2144]get them to report in a different manner. I recall on one
[2146]occasion discussing the set-up of : how the @ywag
[2148]group prepared
[2150]the debriefing reports, that they could ramove the namas from
[2152]it, instead of filing them inside the report, they put the
[2153]names on cards so they could be put into a computer machine
[2154]here.
[2156]Mr. Wides. In the period when Mr. Shackley and tr. Dimmer
[2158]were Station Chiefs, which would be '63 through '65 or so, did
[2160]DocId:33202440 Page 30 TAB GEfDRDET
[2162]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[2164]WARD & PAUL
[2166]410 First Street, S-E., Washington, O.C. 20003
[2168]HY 409545
[2170]10
[2174]12
[2176]13
[2178]14
[2180]15
[2182]16
[2184]17
[2186]18
[2188]19
[2190]20.
[2192]21
[2194]22
[2196]23
[2198]“24
[2200]25
[2202]Bacld:3
[2204]TOP SECRET
[2206]39
[2208]you have any contact with Mr. Sternfeld or Mr. Esterline?-
[2210]Mr. Sarno.
[2212]Mr. Wides.
[2214]Mr. Sarno.
[2216]Which period is this?
[2217]‘62 to '65 or so.
[2219]Mr. Esterline, who I believe at that time
[2221]was ~~ Mr. Esterline was --
[2223]Mr. Widas.
[2225]Mr. Sarno.
[2227]Was he in Miami?
[2229]No, Mr. Esterline was on the staff he -- I
[2231]don't know whether it was on the staff of the Task FPorce or
[2233]who at that time,
[2235]but I knew Mr. Esterline, first from his
[2237]visits. I first met Mr. Esterline when he came to Miami in
[2239]either late '61 or early '62, and I never saw him again until
[2241]he used to make his trips down, and then I understand he was
[2243]assigned overseas.
[2245]Mr. Wides.
[2247]Mr. Sarno.
[2249]Mr. Wides..
[2251]Mr. Sarno.
[2252]time.
[2254]Mr. Wides.
[2256]Mr. Sarno.
[2258]Mr. Wides.
[2260]Mr. Sarno.
[2262]Did you discuss the KGS Program with him?
[2264]At that period?
[2265]At any tima.
[2267]Well, yes, he was my Station Chief at one
[2269]You mean in '68 or ‘69?
[2270]That's right.
[2271]But not prior to that?
[2273]Well, yes, he came down on.~- prior to his
[2275]coming down and setting up the new station, he came down and
[2277]discussed with all of us who might remain at our jobs there.
[2279]Mr. Wides.
[2281]02440: Page 31
[2283]But not in the early peried of the '60's?
[2285]TOP SECRET
[2288]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[2290]WARD & PAUL
[2292]410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
[2294]HW 50955
[2296]10
[2300]12
[2302]13
[2304]14
[2306]15
[2308]16
[2310]17
[2312]18
[2314]19
[2318]21
[2320]22
[2322]23
[2324]24
[2326]25
[2330]Mr,
[2332]Mr.
[2334]Mr.
[2336]TOP SECRET
[2338]49
[2339]Sarno. Not in the earlier --
[2340]Wides. What about Larry Sternfeld?
[2342]Sarno. No, Mr. Sternfeld was never connected with
[2344]the Cuban thing until early '68.
[2346]. Mr.
[2348]You
[2350]Wides. Let me go back to tha cover companias.
[2352]Say you set up one company for the smaller group, or
[2354]One notional that was handling the --
[2356]Mr.
[2358]Mr.
[2360]Can
[2362]Mr.
[2364]Mr.
[2366]Mr.
[2370]Mr.
[2372]Mr.
[2374]a
[2376]Mr.
[2378]Mr.
[2380]Mr.
[2382]Sarno. Refugees.
[2383]Wides. Refugees.
[2384]you give us the name of that?
[2386]Sarno. I don't recall it, sir.
[2388]‘Wides. Now, was there a Separate company --~
[2390]Sarno. For the principal group.
[2391]Wides. And what was that?
[2393]Sarno. Well, you named it off, the dt
[2395]Wides. I thought you said that didn't start until
[2397]Sarno.
[2399]Wides.
[2401]Sarno. Is that what that stands for? There was a
[2403]Wides.
[2404]Sarno. Yeah.
[2406]Wides. What was its cover?
[2408]Page 32 TAD GECBDET
[2411]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[2413]WARD & PAUL
[2415]410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
[2417]HW 50955
[2419]10
[2421]le
[2422]13
[2423]14
[2424]15
[2425]16
[2426]17
[2427]18
[2429]19
[2433]21
[2435]22
[2437]23
[2439]24
[2441]25
[2443]TOP SECRET
[2445]41
[2446]Mr. Sarno. They were supposed to be doing, researching
[2447]Latin America, since they had a lot of files, and you could
[2448]hear a lot of typewriters clicking all over the place.
[2449]Mr. Wides. And what's your best recollection of the name?
[2451]My best recollection is @#@aimg
[2453]Mr. Wides. Company?
[2455]Mr. Sarno. Company.
[2457]Mr. Wides. Did it havea any other names? I think vou
[2458]suggested there were evan more than two proprietaries and more
[2459]than two notionals. Did you have three or four going at one
[2460]point?
[2462]Mr. Sarno. Well, it was at one point, at one point there
[2463]wera three of them, if you included the Intercept. The
[2464]Intercept people had another name. | :
[2466]Mr. Wides. But basically there were --
[2468]Mr. Sarno. There could have been three of them at one
[2470]time, and basically there were two, yes. One of them was
[2472]the United States?
[2474]Mr. Sarno. Use of QUE} people outside the Miami area?
[2476]Mr. Wides. In the United States.
[2478]Doclda: 3277027440 Page 33 TQ Pp CECRET
[2480]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[2481]=)
[2483]10
[2487]le
[2489]13
[2491]WARD & PAUL
[2493]14
[2494]15
[2495]16
[2496]17
[2497]18
[2499]19
[2501]21
[2502]22
[2503]23
[2507]24
[2509]410 First Street, S.E., Wasnington, O.C. 20003
[2511]25
[2515]TOP SECRET
[2517]42
[2519]Mr. Sarno. Nobody ever approached me on it. They were
[2521]outside of Miami, but the thing that happens is the Chief of
[2523]the Miami group, when an @igwi$ewould leave --
[2525]Mr. Wides. This is Yieeeee
[2527]Mr. Sarno.
[2529]when they would move to any area, and all they would do is to
[2531]report on Cuban exiles in that area.
[2533]Mr. Wides. And would the fact that they were leaving and
[2534]going to another area be reported by you, back through channels
[2535]to Washington for relay to CIA personnel in the area where
[2536]they were going? Was this ever done?
[2538]Mr. Sarno. Yes, it was done, yes.
[2540]Mr. Wides. And was it not uncommon in the case of Cubans
[2541]going to the New York area? Does that happen fairly frequently
[2543]Mr. Sarno. Well, since it was handled in such a loose
[2545]way, in that it was between @@@@ejpetewand this individual and
[2547]we didn't have them on the payroll.
[2549]Mr. Wides. You mean you didn't have them on the payroll
[2550]in the sense of employees, they ware regularly paid agants,
[2551]informants?
[2553]Mr. Sarno. They were given funds by E which
[2555]obviously were authorized for sort of like operational expenses
[2556]Mr. Wides. Excuse me. You're talking about when they
[2558]Were in Florida, or when thay wers moving?
[2560]HW 50955 Docld:3$2902440 Page 34 TOP GECRET
[2563]TOP SECRET
[2565]g 43
[2567]@ = 1 Mr. Sarno. No, when they were in New York, if they went
[2568]o
[2569]3 e to New York. .
[2570]2 5 Mr. Wides. Well, lat's go back.
[2571]4 The first question I was asking you was with regard to
[2572]5 your relaying to CIA personnel the fact that someone who had
[2574]6 been at eg in Florida was going elsewhere and you said that
[2575]7 | that happened, and then I asked you -- we will come to the
[2576]8 operational relationships in a moment -- how frequently that
[2578]9 happened in regard to people coming to Naw York. For example, |
[2580]10 I assume that there were a fair number of Cubans generally in
[2582]ll there for one or two members of G{Wpysk who went up to New York
[2584]12 during the course of all of these years.
[2586]WARD & PAUL
[2588]13 Mr Sarno. No, sir, no, sir.
[2589]14 Mr. Wides. Would you say several dozen or a dozen?
[2591]15 Mr. Sarno. So far as I recall, there was only one that
[2592]16 aver went up there, and he in turn collected two or three of
[2593]17 his other friends around him who formed a little nucleus, but |
[2594]18 there was only one that went.
[2596]19 Mr. Wides. What about other cities? What other cities
[2598]20:1 do you xecall people went to?
[2600]410 First Street, S.E., Wasnington, D.C. 20003
[2602]21 Mr. Sarno. In the United States?
[2603]20 Mr. Wides. Yas.
[2604]®@ 23 Washington? -
[2605]24 Mr. Sarno. No, sir. San Juan, Puerto Rico, and that's all,
[2607]25 || in the United States.
[2609]HW 50955 Docla:32%02440 Page 35 TAD GELRBET
[2611]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[2613]10
[2617]12
[2619]13
[2621]WARD & PAUL
[2623]14
[2625]15
[2627]16
[2629]17
[2631]18
[2633]19
[2635]21
[2637]22
[2639]23
[2641]24
[2643]Be... Street, $.€., Washington, D.c. 20003
[2645]25
[2647]20.
[2649]TOP SECRET
[2651]44
[2653]Mr. Wides,. Chicago?
[2655]Mr. Sarno. No, Sir.
[2657]Mr. Wides. Anyplace on the West Coast or the Southwest?
[2658]Mr. Sarno. No, sir. |
[2660]Mr. Wides. Boston? ; i
[2662]Mr. Sarno. No, sir.
[2664]Mr. Wides. So you only recall Persons who had been in
[2666]CUUESa telling -- why don't we refer to him as @ayuwe ae
[2667]that they were going to another city as being New York and
[2668]San Juan?
[2670]Mr. Sarno. New York and San Juan are the only two I ‘ever
[2671]Yecall they ever had any CUES or ax~Qes or People that had
[2672]been in the Organization went.
[2674]Mr. Wides. Now when they went and they recruited other
[2676]People, was that &
[2678]gsuggestion or under his supervision
[2679]Mr. Sarno. They usually collected a group around People
[2680]that they trusted.
[2682]Mr. Wides. Was that up topeel
[2684]Supervision and
[2685]direction?
[2686]Mr. Sarno. Ha directed them to do it, yes. I didn't evan
[2688]a :
[2689]Know the individual, I néver met him. It's one individual.
[2691]Mr. Wides. Did ha spaak to you about the fact that he
[2693]was going to do this,
[2695]Did he consult with you on it?
[2697]Mr. Sarno. Well, 1 believe it came up -- I knew the felloy
[2699]TOP SECRET
[2701]HY 50955 Docld:322702440 Page 36
[2703]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[2705]10
[2709]12
[2711]13
[2713]WARD & PauL
[2715]14
[2717]15
[2719]16
[2721]1?
[2723]18
[2725]19
[2727]21
[2729]22
[2731]23
[2733]24
[2735]4) @. Street, §.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003
[2741]TOP SECRET
[2743]45
[2745]was leaving, because he was taken off of the role as being in
[2746]Miami, and we may have, discussed his being used while he was in
[2747]New York in case anything aver came up.
[2749]Mr. Wides. Do you recall discussing it?
[2751]Mr. Sarno. Well, yes, we did discuss it, obviously it
[2752]was discussed, because this fellow came up with a big thing
[2753]when they were going to bazooka the UN building.
[2755]Mr. Wides. Was this ona of the Novo brothers -- or was
[2756]either of the Novo brothers in @QGGD) in Florida? 1 believe
[2757]this is the name of the two people who were arrested at the
[2759]time.
[2761]Mr. Sarno. No, the £UUNa that was in New York is the one
[2762]that discovered the Plot and we informed the Bureau and the
[2764]Bureau moved in on it.
[2766]Mr. Wides. You informed the Bureau?
[2768]Mr. Sarno. We informed the Bureau of that shelling of
[2770]the UN, and it was the @MUiGS, this one @EGND up there who aot
[2771]the information.
[2773]Mr. Wides. And he relayed that to someone in New York, or
[2775]back, through & ri
[2779]Mr. Sarno. we ~- ha
[2781]informed us, and we in turn advised’ our base in New York who
[2783]in turn advised the Bureau.
[2785]Mr. Wides. Which base is that, the Domestic Operations or
[2787]the Security Office?
[2789]HY 50955 Doclds32202440 Page 37 TOP SECRET
[2791]tape
[2793]Phone (Are3 202) 544-6000
[2795]WARD & PAUL
[2797]410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
[2799]HY 409545
[2801]10
[2805]le
[2807]13
[2809]14
[2811]15
[2813]16
[2815]17
[2817]18
[2819]19
[2823]al
[2825]22
[2827]23
[2829]24
[2831]25
[2833]TOP SECRET
[2835]46
[2837]Mr. Sarno. Domestic Operations.
[2838](Discussion off the record.)
[2839]Mr. Wides. With regard to the information received from
[2841]the former @@ iy in New York about the plot to shoot a bazooka
[2843]at the UN, was Mr. Shackley the Station Chief at the time you
[2844]received that informatian?
[2846]Mr. Sarno. I don't recall the date, but the date was
[2847]hetween early '62, which it had to have been, and -- because
[2848]Shackley left which I think was in July of '64 and that would
[2849]have meant he was the Chief of Station.
[2851]Mr. Wides. Well, didn't he just indicate before while we
[2852]were taking a rbreak that you had recalled that Shackley was
[2853]the Station Chief?
[2855]Mr. Sarno. I don't recall whether he was exactly the
[2856]Station Chief or not. I can't place the date with what had
[2857]happened, so I know I went back to the Station and I reported
[2858]it, and it in turn was reported. Now, if I told it to Shackley
[2860]or if I told it to Dimmer, if I told it to the two different
[2862]Branch Chiefs that were there. at the time, I do not recall.
[2864]Mr. Wides. Now would’ that report be in the Guy file?
[2865]Mr. Sarno. In the history?
[2867]Mr. Wides. No, in the file, the project file.
[2869]If wa got that date when that took place, the date when
[2873]the Agency had the information, would your report and report of
[2875]the branch or station in Florida be in the 4
[2877]Gy project file
[2879]Docld:34202440 Page 36 TOD GE¢f¢RDET
[2882]Prone (Area 202) 544-6000
[2884]WARD & PAUL
[2886]410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
[2889]HY 409545
[2891]10
[2895]12
[2897]13
[2899]14
[2901]15
[2903]16
[2905]1?
[2907]18
[2909]19
[2913]21
[2915]22
[2917]23
[2919]24
[2921]25
[2923]TOP. SECRET
[2925]47
[2927]or would it be in some other file?
[2929]Mr. Sarno. I don't think that they maintain a chrono on
[2930]It was voluminous. Once they were processed by the
[2931]Agency and put into our communications channel, be it by
[2932]dispatch or by cable, I don't think they retained all of those
[2933]tons of files.
[2935]Mr. Wides. Do you recall who the FI Branch Chief was at
[2936]the time?
[2938]Mr. Sarno. No, sir.
[2940]If you giva me a date that I know --
[2942]Mr. Widas. I believe it was '64.
[2944]Mr. Sarno. If it was early 1964, then Mr. Shackley was
[2945]there. If it was late 1964 when Dimmer came, then there was
[2946]another branch, so there were two branch chiefs.
[2948]Mr. Wides. Now did you relay this information, did you
[2949]say, to Washington, or directly to New York?
[2951]Mr. Sarno. Sir, I never handled communications.
[2953]Mr. Wides. Well, I didn't mean you --
[2955]Mr. Sarno. If I write it up, I giva it to my branch chief
[2956]and my branch chief in turn sends it out. But to me, it would
[2957]seem logical, knowing communications, that we would send the
[2958]cable directly to New York with info to Washington.
[2960]Mr. Wides. Ware you ever told that communications had
[2961]been made to New York? You said before --
[2963]Mr. Sarno. Yes, I was told, because I think there may have
[2965]sncrasa4 02440 Page 39 TAB GECBET
[2968]TOP SECRET
[2970]3 48
[2971]3
[2972]= 1 been a cable or something coming down and giving the boys
[2973]i=)
[2974]i 2 eredit for the thing. ,
[2975]2 3 Mr. DeMarco. Do you recall now the name of this one
[2977]4 NipeomWwho went to New York?
[2979]5 Mr. Sarno. His name was Enrique.
[2981]6 Mr. Wides. Could you spell that?
[2983]7 Mr. Sarno. E-n-r-i-q-u-e, that is his first name.
[2985]8 I don't recall his last name.
[2987]9 Mr. DeMarco. Lazarus?
[2989]10 Mr. Sarno. No. Lazarus is not a last name.
[2991]ll Mr. Wides. How many people did he have working with him?
[2992]a , -
[2993]2
[2994]< 12 Mr. Sarno. Sir, I don't recall, but I know there was nore
[2996]ie]
[2997]a 13 than one or two.
[2998]3
[3000]14 Mr. Wides. And would@gat sggive you reports that he
[3002]15 sent down to &
[3004]16 Mr. Sarno. Yes, sir.
[3006]1? Mr. Wides. And what did the reports talk about?
[3007]18 Mr. Sarno. They were on Cuban exiles, groups, collection
[3009]19 of money, Alpha 66 and people of that group who were up in
[3010]20.| New York City.
[3011]21 Mr. Wides. Was it your impression at the time that this
[3013]e2 || group had no contact with any CIA offices in New York?
[3015]410 First Street, §.E., Washington, O.C. 20003
[3017]@ 23 Mr. Sarno. Which group, sir?
[3018]24 Mr. Wides. The group that this fellow Enrique had.
[3019]25 Mr. Sarno. Had no contacts with anybody else?
[3021]HY 50955 Docld:3 Loseso Page 40 Th. D GEFfRDET
[3024]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[3026]WARD & PAUL
[3028]410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003
[3030]HW 50955
[3032]10
[3036]le
[3038]13
[3040]14
[3042]15
[3044]16
[3046]17
[3048]18
[3050]19
[3054]al
[3055]22
[3056]23
[3057]24
[3059]20
[3061]Docld: 32202440 Page 41 Te? BD GEfrBET
[3063]TOP SECRET
[3065]49
[3067]Mr, Wides. ‘With any CIA offices in New York. Was your
[3068]impression that the only contact that he had with CIA was all
[3069]the way back through Miami?
[3071]Mr. Sarno. I believe that was the case, yes, sir.
[3073]Mr. Wides. You had no understanding?
[3075]Mr. Sarno. Well, obviously once this thing came up, we
[3076]put this fallow in contact with somebody in the base up there
[3077]who in turn dslivered them to the Bureau.
[3079]Mr. Wides. And this was the Domestic Operations Base, not |
[3080]the Security Office?
[3082]Mr. Sarno. Domestic Operations.
[3084]Mr. Wides. Now thereafter, did they keep contact wit-
[3086]this group?
[3088]Mr, Sarno. I cannot recall.
[3089]Mr. .Wides. Did you continue after that incident to get
[3091]reports through
[3093]Mr. Sarno. I believe so, yes.
[3095]Mr. Wides. With no indication whether they were also in
[3096]touch with tha Agency?
[3098]Mee-Sarno. No, sir.
[3100]Mr, Wides. You weran't curious, or did you ever inquire?
[3102]Mr. Sarno. Well, I would believe it to be that they were
[3104]not in contact with anybody up thera, because if the report
[3105]were to come down, they would probably have indicated in their
[3107]report that they had passed this information on.
[3110]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[3112]WARD & PAUL
[3116]4106 First Street, S.E., Wasnington, O.C. 20003
[3118]HW 50955
[3120]10
[3124]12
[3126]13
[3128]14
[3130]15
[3132]16
[3134]17
[3136]18
[3138]19
[3142]21
[3144]22
[3146]23
[3148]24
[3150]20
[3152]TOP SECRET
[3154]50
[3156]Mr. Wides. No, I mean after that, after they were put
[3157]in touch with the base.
[3159]Mr. Sarno. That's what I was speaking of. Many reports
[3160]that came there after, they would have indicated that it had
[3161]been passed, and I don't recall ever reading a report from
[3162]them that he had passed the information on to any contact up
[3163]there.
[3165]Mr. Wides. Do you recall any instance in which the
[3167]Agency asked, through you, and in turn through Gite
[3168]particular people in New York be watched or investigated?
[3170]Mr. Sarno. No, sir.
[3172]Mr. Wides. How would they decida what groups or what
[3173]individuals to penetrate or keep under surveillance?
[3175]Mr. Sarno. Well there were the active groups. This
[3177]fellow used to come down to Miami and he would talk to
[3179]SEB ould tall him, here is people here who
[3180]are talking about collecting money, about a supposed operation,
[3181]how much money are they getting for it --
[3182]Mr. Wides. Whare would he gat that informatian from, from
[3183]you?
[3185]Mr. Sarno. Get what?
[3187]fsiget that --
[3189]Mr. Wides. Where would ¢ a
[3191]Mr. Sarno. The MI group knew more about what was going on
[3193]in Cuban operations in the Miami area than we did, so most of
[3195]the information we obtained was through them.
[3197]Docld: 34 02440 Page 42 srel’) GECRBET
[3199]Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000
[3201]WARD & PAUL
[3205]416 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
[3207]HW 50955
[3209]10
[3211]11
[3213]12
[3215]13
[3217]14
[3219]15
[3221]16
[3223]1?
[3225]18
[3227]19
[3231]21
[3233]22
[3235]23
[3237]24
[3239]25
[3241]TOP SECRET
[3243]51
[3245]Mr. Wides. So how would he get the information about
[3246]potential targets in New York?
[3248]Mr. Sarno. Bacause thay had the groups down in Miami
[3249]Penetrated, so in Miami, these groups in Miami, would discuss
[3250]their contacts with the splinter group sitting up in New York
[3251]and the information would come about.
[3253]4
[3255]Mr. Wides. You never got any written instructions or
[3257]oral instructions when you were in Washington or Miami to isee
[3259]if you could arrange for this person to get information on
[3260]people in Naw York?
[3262]Mr..Sarno. Never. Never once.
[3264]Mr. Wides. What about picketing in New York by Cuban
[3265]personnel? There's some reference to that in testimony we've
[3266]already received. |
[3268]Mr. Sarno. There is one incident of the Mexico -- I think
[3269]it was against Mexico, where they went to an affair or somethin
[3270]and threw out leaflets.
[3272]Mr. Wides. What about picketing of an airlins company or
[3273]an airline offica?
[3275]Mr. Sarno. I heard that that took place, but I was not
[3276]in Miami at the time. I was away on a trip.
[3278]Mr. Wides. But your understanding was it involved OS
[3279]personnel?
[3281]Mr. Sarno. This individual was involved in it.
[3283]Mr. Wides. And what did you understand had been the
[3285]en oe Page 43 TABS SECRET
[3288]Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000
[3290]WARD & PALL
[3292]410 First Street, 5.E., Wasnington, 0.C. 20003
[3294]HW 50955
[3296]15
[3298]16
[3300]17
[3302]16
[3304]19
[3308]el
[3309]22
[3310]23
[3311]24
[3313]25
[3315]TOP SECRET
[3317]52
[3319]origins of the picketing? How would it come about?
[3321]Mr. Sarno. Well, I don't believe it was started, I know
[3322]it wasn't started in sa%NmMS because one individual cannot start
[3323]it, but the groups, the Cuban exile groups who were located in
[3324]New York decidad to picket it because, I baliave, of Mexico's
[3325]relations with Cuba.
[3327]Mr. Wides. At this time, wasn't the Agency carrying on
[3328]a wide variety of operations to try and isolate Cuba economically
[3329]and. commercially?
[3331]Mr. Sarno. I believe they were, -yes. I was never involved
[3332]in any of those operations.
[3334]Mr. Wides. And including air traffic people, airlines
[3335]going to Cuba. That was one aspect of the efforts. to isolate
[3336]Cuba.
[3338]Mr. Sarno. Well, the airlines: going to Cuba, if If
[3339]can racall at that time, were not Mexican airlines.
[3341]Mr. Wides. You didn't have any idea at the time as to
[3342]what --
[3344]Mr. Sarno. Mexican airlines do not fly to Cuba. The
[3346]Cubans always flew their airplanes over. The Mexicans were
[3348]not flying.
[3350]Mr. Wides. So you understood this to be harrassment of
[3351]a Mexican Company or a Mexican national company, because of
[3352]Mexico's general relations with Cuha?
[3354]Mr. Sarno. General relations with Cuba, that is what I
[3356]Docld: 34202440 Page 44 TOP GECBET
[3358]Phone {Area 202) 544-6000
[3360]10
[3364]le
[3366]13
[3368]WARD & PAUL
[3370]14
[3371]15
[3372]16
[3373]17
[3374]18
[3376]19
[3379]22
[3381]23
[3383]410 First Street, $.£., Washington, O.C_. 20003
[3385]24
[3387]25
[3391]TOP SECRET
[3392]| 53
[3393]understood it to be.
[3394]Mr. Wides. And you didn't have any information that the
[3395]Agency was aware of it heforehand?
[3396]Mr. Sarno. No, sir, I was never involved in it. I don't
[3398]recall ever seeing the reports or anything, because as I say,
[3400]I did an awful lot of travelling when I handled the QUMase
[3401]| Mr. Wides. When you discussed this with the people at
[3402]the Agency, is your testimony that you naver heard any indica-
[3404]tion that the Agency was involved in that picketing?
[3406]Mr. Sarno. That is -~
[3408]Mr. Wides. No one's ever suggested --
[3410]Mr. Sarno. Nobody ever suggested that the Agency was the
[3411]One who backed the people who did the picketing, no.
[3413]Mr. Wides. Now was there a time when @M@@@S personnel who
[3414]had not moved outside of the Miami area were ever used or
[3415]involved in any Agency Operations to your knowledge outside of
[3416]Miami, went on trips to do little jobs?
[3418]Mr. Sarno. @@gSswent out of Miami in order to do little
[3419]jobs --
[3421]Mr, Wides. I don't mean to Cuba.
[3423]Mr. Sarno. No, they went out of Miami to do little jobs
[3424]like for instance a specialist in say, sugar, would say come
[3425]out of Cuba through Spain and he'd end up in New York, and so
[3427]» would go from Miami to New York to debrief him. Or we
[3429]would hear of somebody who knew of a well=known government
[3431]HW 50955 Docld:32202440 Page 45 TOP SECRET
[3434]Phone (Area 202} 544-6000
[3436]410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
[3438]HY 409545
[3440]WARD & PAUL
[3442]10
[3448]13
[3450]14
[3452]15
[3454]16
[3456]17
[3458]18
[3460]19
[3462]Z20°
[3464]21
[3466]22
[3468]25
[3470]24
[3472]25
[3474]| TOP SECRET
[3476]54
[3477]figure in Cuba who came out and he goes to Louisiana or he
[3479]goes to Chicago. Well, an AMO
[3481]} would be dispatched over to his
[3483]house to debrief him. That is the only places I aver sent the
[3485]were ever sent.
[3487]or the Ae
[3489]Mr. Wides. What about with regard to surveillances or
[3490]breaking or entering?
[3492]Mr. Sarno. Never.
[3494]Mr. Wides. Mr. Sturbitz, do you know him?
[3496]Mr. Sarno. Sturbitz?
[3498]Mr. Wides. He was involved in economic warfare against
[3499]Castro. |
[3501]Mr. Sarno. Sturblitz or Sturbitz?
[3503]Mr. Wides. Sturbitz.
[3505]Mr. Sarno. Yes, I know Sturbitz.
[3507]Mr. Wides. He testified he conducted some inquiries in
[3509]regard to the question of @uigest involvement in possible illegal
[3511]activities, breaking and entering, surveillance and so forth.
[3512]Were you aware of those investigations?
[3513]Mr. Sarno. No, sir.
[3515]Mr. Wides. Have you ever heard any charges or allegations
[3517]or suggestions that diWiG@e> personnel were involved in breaking
[3518]and entering in New York against groups like the Fair Play For
[3520]Cuba Committee, the Vinceremos Brigade?
[3522]Mr. Sarno. No, sir, no, sir.
[3524]Mr. Wides. And you never heard anything about the use of
[3526]Docld:32202440 Page 46 Trp GECRBET
[3529]Prone (Area 202) 544-6000
[3531]WARD & PAUL
[3533]410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 6.C. 20003
[3535]HW 50955
[3537]LO
[3541]12
[3543]13
[3545]14
[3547]15
[3549]16
[3551]1?
[3553]18
[3555]19
[3557]20.
[3563]25
[3565]24
[3567]25
[3569]DoclId:3
[3571]TOP SECRET
[3573]55
[3575]CANOES, in regard to any kind of harrassing action against those
[3576]groups?
[3578]5
[3580]Mr. Sarno. No, sir, never.
[3582]Mr. Wides. Do you know if any members
[3583]heen used in thease kinds of activities without your express |
[3584]direction or not as part of its CIA task?
[3586]Mr. Sarno. No, sir.
[3588]Mr. Wides. You never heard anything about it?
[3590]Mr. Sarno. Never heard.
[3592]Mr. Wides. In Florida also?
[3594]Mr. Sarno. In Florida also.
[3596]Mr. Wides. What about with regard to Puerto Rico and
[3598]QRS going there. Tell us about that.
[3600]Mr. Sarno. Well, there ware several @@ime who left Miami
[3602]and want over to Puerto Rico. There is a large Cuban community
[3603]in Puerto Rico with the attendant Cuban exile groups, and it |
[3604]was the same thing as was going on in New York. Thay would
[3605]collect data on what these groups were doing, operations that
[3606]they were preparing, funds that they were collecting, et
[3607]cetera.
[3609]Mr. Wides. Did you see those reports as they came in?
[3611]rolswould prepare
[3615]Mr. Sarno. Yes, they came in and @Sany
[3617]them and send them into the office.
[3619]Mr. Wides. When did they start including reports on
[3621]Puerto Rican affairs?
[3623]02440 Page 47 TO.) GECRBET
[3625]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[3627]WARD & PAUL
[3629]410 First Street, S.E., Wasnington, 0.C. 20003
[3631]HY 409545
[3633]10
[3635]12
[3636]13
[3637]14
[3638]15
[3639]16
[3640]17
[3641]18
[3642]19
[3643]20:
[3644]21
[3645]22
[3647]23
[3648]24
[3650]25
[3652]Bactld:3
[3654]TOP SECRET
[3656]56
[3658]Mr. Sarno. Never.
[3659]Mr. Wides. No discussion in those reports --
[3660]Mr. Sarno. Never once did they write up about Puerto
[3662]Rican political affairs. I never once saw a report.
[3664]Mr. Wides. Did -you ever have any discussion with Sem Semte,
[3665]or anyone involved in the Puerto. Rican Cuban community about
[3666]Puerto Rican affairs?
[3668]Mr. Sarno. Naver.
[3670]Mr. Wides. Was there a station operating at that time
[3672]for the Caribbean in Puerto Rico?
[3674]Mr. Sarno. No, sir.
[3676]Mr. Wides. During the entire period, '61 til about '67?
[3678]Mr. Sarno. To my’ knowledge, there wasn't. There was
[3679]not a station.
[3681]Mr. Wides. Do you want to go ahead?
[3683]Mr. DeMarco. Just a couple.
[3685]You mentioned, or it was touched upon earlier, the
[3687]period of time you were actually in Cuba, 1961.
[3689]Mr. Sarno. ‘'60 and ‘61.
[3691]Mr. DeMarco. what’ requirements were levied upon you when
[3692]you left to go to Cuba?
[3694]Mr. Sarno. None.
[3696]Mr. DeMarco. Well, you'd better explain that. I don't
[3698]understand that answer at all. You just went on a vacation?
[3700]Mr. Sarno. I was transferred from a foraign country to
[3702]202440 Page 48 TOP GECBET
[3704]Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000
[3706]WARD & PAUL
[3708]410 First Street, S.E., Wasnington, 0.C. 20003
[3710]HW 50955
[3712]10
[3718]13
[3720]14
[3722]15
[3724]16
[3726]1?
[3728]18
[3730]19
[3734]al
[3736]22
[3738]235
[3740]24
[3742]25
[3744]TOP SECRET
[3746]57
[3748]Cuba because they needed me.
[3750]Mr. DeMarco. What foreign country were you transferred
[3751]from?
[3753]Mr. Sarno. I don't think that I should state that.
[3755]Mr. DeMarco. I insist that you answer that.
[3757]Mr. Wides. Let's go off the record.
[3759](Discussion off the record.) |
[3761]Mr. DeMarco. For tha record, I think I should explain to
[3762]you that we are highly interested in the sort of activities
[3763]that you were involved in in Cuba in 1960 and '61, but our
[3764]investigation has to a certain point been slowed down by the
[3765]inability to obtain the right kinds of documents and that
[3766]being the case, and your insistence here on not answering
[3767]certain questions, will require us to simply have you come
[3768]back once we have cleared this up with your superiors at the
[3769]Agency and once they have been more forthcoming with documents
[3770]that were long ago requested about your activities.
[3772]I don't want to pursue just suspicions with you, I'd
[3773]rather talk to you about specific dates-and facts.
[3775]We ara going to pursue this very vigorously, and the
[3776]reason I'm interested in it is the gambling background, and
[3777]I would lika to know your training in that area, your experienc
[3778]in that area and thea reasons why you wera down there.
[3780]Now if there is anything you want to tell me now, or do
[3782]you want to come back --
[3784]Docld:32?027440 Page 49 TOP SECRET
[3787]Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000
[3789]WARD & PAUL
[3791]ve)
[3793]410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
[3795]HY 409545
[3797]10
[3801]12
[3803]13
[3805]14
[3807]15
[3809]16
[3811]17
[3813]16
[3815]19
[3819]el
[3821]22
[3823]25
[3825]24
[3827]25
[3831]58
[3833]Mr. Sarno. Sure, I'll tell you now. I was in a country --
[3834]and I don't think I have to name the country because you are
[3835]interested in Cuba and you ara interested in the operation that
[3836]I had in Miami and I don't think you're interested in what I
[3837]did before I want to Cuba. I tell you that nobody gave me any
[3838]instructions when I went to Cuba. I knew the Chief of Station
[3839]in Cuba and had known him for many years. He asked for me
[3841]specifically to come over for my abilities or qualifications
[3843]or axperience. I climbed on an airplane and I went to Cuba.
[3845]I met the Chief of Station and he told me what he wanted
[3847]me to do.
[3849]Mr. DeMarco. What's his name?
[3851]Mr. Sarno.
[3853]Mr. DeMarco. You met (ge oeiR and he told you what he
[3855]wanted you to do?
[3857]What did he tell you?
[3859]Mr. Sarno. He told me he wanted me to set up a stay-behind
[3860]net in Cuba because the situation was getting very bad and he
[3861]would like to set a stay-behind net up in Cuba. .
[3863]Mr. Wides. This is with the break in Cuban relations?
[3865]Mr. Sarno. That's right, the pending break in diplomatic
[3867]relations and the rest of the things, and he wanted to sat up
[3868]a net over in Cuba. And that is why he called for me.
[3869]Mr. DeMarco. Okay. So you --
[3871]Mr. Sarno. I went into Cuba and did not hava a job. I had
[3873]Docld:3 Loose Page 50 TOP SECRET
[3875]Phone (Area 202} 544-6000
[3877]WARD & PAUL
[3879]410 First Street, S.£.. Washington, O.C. 20003
[3881]HY 409545
[3883]LO
[3885]11
[3887]12
[3889]13
[3891]14
[3893]15
[3895]16
[3897]17
[3899]18
[3901]19
[3905]21
[3907]22
[3909]23
[3911]24
[3913]29
[3915]TOP SECRET
[3917]59
[3919]no cover. I went in as a tourist, a tourist can wear thin so
[3920]I had to scrounge around in different ways. w had a brother-
[3921]in~law who was a professional gambler. When I was a kid, he
[3922]died. He taught me a little about gambling, so I used to go
[3923]to the black jack tables and I would win money here, there and |
[3924]the other place.
[3926]Mr. DeMarco. Is this the hotel black jack tables
[3927]predominantly?
[3929]Mr. Sarno. No, they had black jack, roulette, they had
[3930]baccarat. I would go in there, I would make myself seen, they
[3931]would see that I was wearing good clothes and I was winning
[3933]money at the gambling tables and that's it.
[3935]I am not to be tied into any Syndicate or anything like
[3936]it. I didn't know a single soul.
[3938]Mr. DeMarco. You knew no one?
[3940]Mr. Sarno. Nobody.
[3942]Mr. DeMarco. And your task then, which you learned on
[3943]arriving there, was to set up a network?
[3945]Mr. Sarno. To sat up a network of agents in Cuba, yes.
[3947]Mr. DeMarco. So you started mesting people to do that?
[3949]Mr. Sarno. No.
[3951]We never meet people to do that.
[3953]Mr. DeMarco. Describe to me how you did it.
[3955]Mr. Sarno. People ware spotted by other individuals and
[3957]they're checked out, and once they're chacked out and their
[3959]seoran)poue Page 51 TOP SECRET
[3961]Prone {Area 202) 544-6000
[3963]WARD & PAUL
[3965]410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
[3967]HW 50955
[3969]10
[3971]11!
[3975]13
[3977]14
[3979]15
[3981]16
[3983]1?
[3985]18
[3987]19
[3991]21
[3993]22
[3995]23
[3997]24
[3999]25
[4001]Bocld:3
[4003]TOP SECRET
[4005]60
[4006]clearance is obtained on them, they are delivered to me for
[4007]ma to handle and train-and what have you.
[4009]Mr. DeMarco. I see.
[4010]Ware any of those Americans?
[4012]Mr. Sarno. No, I never spotted any Americans. There
[4014]were given to me to use as, to handle some of the other ones
[4015]that were involved.
[4017]Mr. DeMarco. Were they also involved in the same type of
[4018]cover you Were, gambling? |
[4020]Mr. Sarno. No. They were not in the same cover. As I
[4021]Say, it was a. cover provided by the Agency. It was.a cover I
[4022]just naturally stumbled into since I was going to the
[4023]different casinos and I was winning money there and I could
[4024]pass myself off as a tourist-gambler.
[4026]Mr. DeMarco. Thsse other two Americans you were talking
[4028]about, can you name them?
[4030]Mr. Sarno. Well, I'll give you the name. One I would
[4031]name, bacause I was not involved with the other one very long.
[4032]One's name is Emelio Rodriquez, but he is dead now.
[4034]Mr. DeMarco. He was an American?
[4036]Mr. Sarno. Yes, he died of a heart attack. And the
[4037]other was Julian.
[4039]Mr. DeMarco. Julian?
[4041]Mr. Sarno. Julian. I don't recall the last name, but he ©
[4043]tt oe
[4045]ssa Page 52 Tr 1B
[4047]GEfrDET
[4049]were two Americans over there who were already working, and they
[4052]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[4054]WARD & PAUL
[4056])
[4058]410 First Street, 5.£., Washington, D.C. 20003
[4060]HW 50955
[4062]10
[4066]le
[4068]13
[4070]14
[4072]15
[4074]16
[4076]17
[4078]18
[4080]19
[4084]21
[4086]22
[4088]25
[4090]24
[4094]TOP SECRET
[4098]only remained for about two months after I arrived.
[4100]Mr. DeMarco. What were these two people doing in Cuba
[4101]prior to the time they were turned over to you and you met
[4102]them?
[4104]Mr. Sarno. Collection of intelligence.
[4106]Mr. DeMarco. For the Agency?
[4108]Mr. Sarno. Yes, for the Agency. They were agents of the
[4109]Agency, as was I. But they were residing in Cuba.
[4111]Mr. DeMarco. At any time while you were in Cuba, for that
[4112]matter, at any time, did you become aware of any Agency
[4113]relationships with -- I'm going to use the term generically --
[4114]organized crime. Do you understand what I mean by that?
[4116]Mr. Sarno. Yes, certainly.
[4118]Mr. DeMarco. Whether or not organized, people who you've
[4119]read about in the paper, or you would consider to be involved
[4120]in that kind of business, are you aware of any relationships
[4121]between any Agency personnel in Cuba or alsewhere?
[4123]Mr. Sarno. None whatsoever.
[4125]Mr. DeMarco. During the period of time that you were in
[4126]the casinos, playing black jack and roulette and so forth, did
[4127]you get an opportunity to meet the people that were running
[4128]the casinos?
[4130]Mr. Sarno. No.
[4132]There was. one big Swede in. the Capri that because it was
[4134]close to where .I was living I would go in there more often, and
[4136]DocTd: 39202440 Page 53 TC) Pp CECRDET
[4138]Phone (Area 202} 544-6000
[4140]WARD & PAUL
[4142])
[4144]410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
[4146]HY 50955
[4148]16
[4152]12
[4154]13
[4156]14
[4158]15
[4160]16
[4162]1?
[4164]18
[4166]19
[4170]21
[4172]22
[4174]25
[4176]24
[4178]25
[4180]TOP SECRET
[4182]62
[4183]as soon as I take off from my house, my apartment, I would
[4184]head over there and he was always seeing me in and offer me
[4185]drinks, but he was not a big wheel, he was just one of their
[4186]employees. |
[4188]Mr. DeMarco. Where was this?
[4190]Mr. Sarno. At the Capri.
[4192]Mr. DeMarco. You say a big Swede?
[4194]Mr. Sarno. A biq Swede, a blond-haired fellow. I didn't
[4195]even know his name, I'd just call him Swede.
[4197]Mr. DeMarco. Was he an American, or from Sweden?
[4199]Mr. Sarno. I think he was from America.
[4201]Mr. DeMarco. Were any of the peovle that you were
[4202]involved in handling in Cuba commercial or airline people?
[4204]Any airline people?
[4206]Mr. Sarno. No, sir.
[4208]Mr. DeMarco. Did any of them have official Cuban govern-
[4209]Ment positions?
[4211]Mr. Sarno. Yas.
[4213]Mr. DeMarco. They did?
[4215].Mr. Sarno. Some of them did, those were the ones that
[4216]you were looking for.
[4218]Mr. DeMarco. I don't have anything more at this time.
[4220]Mr. Wides. I am just a little puzzled by your testimony
[4222]regarding the @i@iiGhactivity with regard to the Cuban community,
[4224]You indicated there was a CI capability, but if I understa
[4226]pocta:34 02440 Page 54 Te. Bb GEL RDET
[4228]d
[4230]Prone (Area 202) 544-6000
[4232]WARD & PAUL
[4234]HW 50955
[4236]410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
[4238]10
[4239]11
[4240]le
[4241]13
[4242]14
[4243]15
[4244]16
[4245]17
[4247]18
[4249]19
[4253]21
[4255]22
[4257]23
[4259]24
[4261]25
[4263]TOP SECRET
[4265]63
[4267]it, you said the only penetration was fory purposes of finding
[4268]out about exile activities being planned against Cuba.
[4270]What was your testimony with regard to the use of AWC
[4272]for members of the Cuban community who might come under
[4273]suspicion as possibly being intentionally or unintentionahly 7 |
[4275]Mr. Sarno. Suspect?
[4277]Mr. Wides. They were employed or they were not employed
[4278]in any way regarding checking on this?
[4280]Mr. Sarno. If you mean to say did they go around and
[4281]surveil them --
[4283]Mr. Wides. No. In any sense of counterintelligence
[4284]work, keeping their ‘ears open and reporting back information
[4285]that might be of a suspicious nature. |
[4287]Mr. Sarno. Wall, to explain it, if an Gm were to walk
[4289]into a place and see a friend and the friend says did you see
[4291]Juan, do you know Juan is here, and the @us
[4293]himself knows and
[4294]the guy he’s talking to that Juan used to work for the Internal
[4295]Security in Cuba, it's obvious. Where's he at, try to find
[4296]him.
[4298]And then they would go back to the files and dig out all
[4299]the information and in would come a report. “Juan is in the
[4300]city of Miami and here's the stuff that we have on him. He
[4301]was a Castro collaborator, or he's a member of ‘the security
[4303]forces over there, and everything.
[4305]Mr. Wides.. So.in general it would be fair to say -- and
[4307]Docld: 32002440 Page 55 TOD GE¢DET
[4309]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[4311]WARD &@ Paw
[4313]S
[4315]410 First Street, S.E., Wasnington, D.C. 20003
[4317]HW 50955
[4319]10
[4321]11
[4323]12
[4325]13
[4327]14
[4329]15
[4331]16
[4333]17
[4335]18
[4337]19
[4339]20
[4341]21
[4342]22
[4343]23
[4344]24
[4346]25
[4348]Docld: 392027440
[4350]IVP SECKE i
[4351]64
[4353]I'm not trying to twist your testimony, I know you referred
[4355]to the basic purpose baing to keep tabs on what was going on
[4357].
[4359]so you would be aware of what Alpha-66 and groups like that
[4361]were planning, but in- general, they were the eyes and ears of
[4363]the Station in the Cuban community and might come up with
[4365]counterintelligence information as well as the information
[4367]about the activities?
[4369]Mr.
[4370]Mr.
[4371]this was
[4372]Mr.
[4373]Mr.
[4374]but they
[4376]CI, that
[4378]Sarno. Yes, sir, yes, sir.
[4380]Wides. And as you understand it on a smaller scale,
[4381]also true with reqards to the group in New York?
[4382]Sarno. Yes, sir.
[4384]Wides. It was not simply to find out about Alpha-66,
[4385]would also report to the extent that they obtained
[4387]is counterintelligenca information, about the Cubans
[4389]in New York?
[4391]Mr.
[4393]Mr.
[4395]the UN?
[4397]Mr.
[4399]Mr.
[4401]time?
[4403]Mr.
[4405]Mr,
[4407]Sarno. Yes, sir.
[4409]Wides. What about with regards to the activities at
[4410]Any reports regarding UN activity ralative to Cuba?
[4411]Sarno. No, sir.
[4413]Wides. Was there a Cuban mission at the UN at this
[4415]Sarno. Yes, sir.
[4417]Wides. And this group never relayed any information
[4419]regarding the Cuban mission or the people they contacted in
[4421]New York?
[4423]Page 56 TOP SECRET
[4426]Phone (Area 202) $44-6000
[4428]WARD & PAUL
[4432]410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
[4434]HY 409545
[4436]10
[4440]le
[4442]13
[4444]14
[4446]15
[4448]16
[4450]1?
[4452]18
[4454]19
[4458]21
[4460]22
[4462]23
[4464]24
[4466]25
[4468]TOP SECRET
[4470]65
[4472]Mr. Sarno. No, sir.
[4474]Mr. Wides. Why wouldn't they have been used for that
[4475]purpose?
[4477]Mr. Sarno. Because that is the Bureau's domain. We never
[4478]checksd up on Cubans, the diplomats who were in the UN, nobody
[4479]was ever in contact with them, they never reported on any
[4480]Cuban diplomats in the UN or any of the Cubans seeing them or
[4481]anything.
[4483]Mr. Wides. Did you ever hear any stories whethar they
[4485]were associated with Ques, or. not of Cuban exiles being
[4487]involved in any harrassment or surveillance of groups in
[4489]America friendly toward the Castro regime, such as the
[4491]Vinceremos Brigade and the Fair Play For Cuba Committee?
[4492]Mr. Sarno. No, sir.
[4494]Mr. Wides. You were not aware of any activity by exiles?
[4496]I'm not talking about necessarily
[4498]Mr. Sarno. Not of any activities.
[4500]Mr, Wides. You never heard anything?
[4502]Mr. Sarno. I never heard anything.
[4504]You're smiling. I'm telling you, I never heard anything.
[4506]Mr. Wides. What about Cubans in the late '60's after the
[4507]Vietnam War arose, being involved, Cuban exiles, in any
[4508]harrassment or surveillance of peace groups? What do you know
[4509]about that?
[4511]Mr. Sarno. Nothing.
[4513]Docld: 32909440 Page 57 TRE EECRBET
[4516]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[4518]WARD & PAUL
[4520]410 First Street, S.£., Washington, D.C. 20003
[4522]HW 50955
[4524]10
[4528]12
[4530]13
[4532]14
[4534]15
[4536]16
[4538]17
[4540]18
[4542]19
[4546]el
[4548]22
[4550]23
[4552]24
[4554]25
[4556]TOP SECRET
[4558]66
[4560]Mr. Wides. Do you know anything about Cubans coming up
[4561]from Miami to be involved in surveillance or disruption of
[4562]any peace demonstrations in Washington?
[4564]Mr. Sarno. Na, sir.
[4566]Mr. Wides. You never haard of that?
[4568]Mr. Sarno. I never heard of it. I know no MUS and 1
[4570]never heard of any other Cubans.
[4572]Mr. Wides. Is there anything else that you -- have you
[4573]gotten a clear understanding of our lines of interest?
[4575]Mr. Sarno. Yas, I have.
[4577]Mr. Wides. -- would like to tell us, or any information -+
[4579]Mr. Sarno. I have no information. I ran a group there
[4580]and we were never involved in anything which I would consider
[4581]to be illegal. They were working against the government of
[4582]Cuba.
[4584]Mr. Wides. I understand that.
[4586]Mr. Sarno. And that is where all of their energy went.
[4588]Mr. Wides. Who was it who would ask you to have mambars
[4590]»detailed for missions elsewhere in America?
[4592]You described one where they would go to another city to
[4593]debrief somebody.
[4595]Mr. Sarno. I would --
[4597]Mr. Wides. How would you get those instructions? From
[4599]the Branch Chief?
[4601]Mr. Sarno. No, I wouldn't get the instructions. Since it
[4603]DocId:3 bozaso Page 56 TOP CECRET
[4605]Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
[4607]WARD & PAUL
[4609]410 First Street, S.E., Wasnington, O.C. 20003
[4611]HW 50955
[4613]10
[4614]11
[4615]12
[4616]13
[4617]14
[4618]15
[4619]16
[4620]17
[4621]18
[4622]19
[4623]20
[4624]21
[4625]22
[4626]23
[4627]24
[4629]25
[4631]TOP SECRET
[4633]67
[4634]was a group and we were collecting economic and political
[4635]intel -- ,
[4637]Mr. Wides. Where would you get the information that’ there
[4638]was a target of opportunity or someone to be debriefed in
[4639]another city?
[4641]Mr. Sarno. If the EShy were to come up with the informa-
[4642]tion, if the SAnyp Were to come up with the information, he
[4643]would come in and report it and I would authorize him to go
[4644]into that city and find him, because the information could
[4645]come in many ways.
[4647]See, they were known as the Cuban municipalities and
[4648]Operations in the city of Miami, and everybody that came out
[4649]from like a provinca or a state would register in it, and
[4650]as soon as they got information, the word would get around that
[4651]Joe Blow came in or something like that, and the word would get
[4652]back to the gis and the Gas would say, wsll, wea should
[4654]discuss with this fellow, and that's it.
[4656]Mr. Wides. You never got any requests for personnel
[4657]to be made available for that kind of task from Washington?
[4659]Mr. Sarno. To debrief an individual?
[4661]Mr. Wides. Or to travel in general.
[4663]‘Mr. Sarno. Yes, yas, they would come down and say, we
[4664]would like a person because Washington would hear of an
[4666]individual and would like for him to go over and debrief.
[4668]Mr. Wides. What office?
[4670]DocId:322029440 Page 59 TOP SECRET
[4673]TOP SECRET
[4675]2 68
[4677]3
[4679]3
[4681]= 1 Mr. Sarno. It would come out of the Cuban branch.
[4685]: 2 Mr. Wides. duban. Operations Task?
[4687]: 5 Who would come down? Just a mamber of the staff?
[4688]4 Mr. Sarno. Come down? They usually came in a cable.
[4689]5 It said, you know, wa understand such and such a person is
[4691]6 living at such and such an address and they worked at such and
[4692]7 such, suggest send an Ge out to debrief.
[4694]8 Mr. Wides. Did you have a particular point of contact:
[4696]9 or Several people who were particular points of contact for
[4698]10 |} you that would tend to be the ones sending you cables?
[4700]1i Mr. Sarno. No, I wasn't the Station Chief. The cables
[4702]12 | come into the station, the Station Chief would pass it to me
[4704]WARD & PAUL
[4706]13 or to the Branch Chief, and that would be it.
[4708]14 Mr. Wides. Okay.
[4710]15 I think that's all the questions we have, and I want
[4712]16 to thank you for your patience, it's been a long morning.
[4714]1? (Whereupon, at 12:42 o'clock p.m., the hearing recessed.)
[4716]18 “=
[4718]19
[4720]20 -
[4722]21
[4724]22
[4726]23
[4728]410 First Street, S.£., Washington, D.C. 20003
[4730]24
[4732]25
[4734]HW 50955 Docld:39707440 Page 60 TOP SECRET