[1]i
[3]‘(157-10002-10148 : " 2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992 |
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[7]Se of
[8]' Date:10/08/93
[9]Page:1
[10]JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM
[11]IDENTIFICATION FORM bide
[13]AGENCY INFORMATION
[15]AGENCY : SSCIA
[16]RECORD NUMBER : 157-10002-10148
[18]RECORDS SERIES :
[19]TRANSCRIPT.
[21]AGENCY FILE NUMBER :
[25]ORIGINATOR =: SSCIA
[27]TO:
[29]94
[31]TITLE :
[32]TESTIMONY OF JAMES P. O'CONNELL
[34]DATE : 05/30/75
[35]PAGES. : 168
[37]SUBJECTS :
[38]MAHEU, ROBERT
[39]CASTRO
[40]ASSASSINATION
[41]CUBA
[42]HUGHES
[43]BISSELL
[44]VERONA
[45]VARONA
[46]HARVEY, WILLIAM
[47]ROSSELLI
[48]GIANCANA
[49]MAFIA
[50]TRAFFICANTE
[51]CIA
[52]ROWAN, DAN
[53]MCGUIRE , PHYLLIS
[55]DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT
[56]CLASSIFICATION : T
[57]RESTRICTIONS ¢ REFERRED __
[58]CURRENT STATUS : P . .
[59]DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 09/30/93.
[61]OPENING CRITERIA :
[63][R] - ITEM IS RESTRICTED
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[70]JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM
[72]IDENTIFICATION FORM
[74]COMMENTS :
[75]Box 255
[76]Folder 4
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[84]te -
[86]Le . cote no
[87]TOP SECRET
[88]ES) 8 1 Chairman Church. Would you please take the oath?
[89]e
[91]z 2 Do you swear that everything you will testify to in
[92]N
[93]g 3 these proceedings shall be the truth, the whole truth and
[94]£ 4 nothing but the truth, so help you God?
[95]5 Mr. O'Connell. I do.
[96]6 : TESTIMONY OF JAMES P. O'CONNELL
[97]y Mr. Schwarz. Would you state your name?
[98]8 Mr. O'Connell. My name is James P. O'Connell.
[99]9 Mr. Schwarz. And what is your address?
[100]10 Mr. O'Connell. 133 Dd sinore Avenue, @
[101]11 -
[102]12 Mr. Schwarz. Before we proceed substantively let me
[103]al
[104]3
[105]é 13 just put on the record some matters.
[107]a
[108]< ‘1a: - First, you understand that you have a right to counsel?
[109]15 Mr. O'Connell. I understand that. I just read it.
[110]16 Mr. Schwarz, And you should also be advised that you
[111]9 . have your rights under the Constitution, including your
[112]18 rights under the Fifth Amendment, if at any point you wish
[113]19 to assert whatever rights that you do have that are under those
[114]Dil *
[115]8 Constitutional provisions.
[116]6 20
[117]: Do you understand that?
[118]2 21
[119]5 Mr.O'Connell. Yes.
[120]2 22
[121]93 Mr. Schwarz. And if at any time you feel that you
[122]@: 24 need an attorney you have the. right to ask for an |
[124]© 25 attorney, do you understand that? : : 4
[125]ba .
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[179]pills?
[181]Mr.
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[185]43
[187]O'Connell. The man that created them is},
[189]Mr.
[190]Mr.
[191]Mr.
[192]Mr,
[193]Mr.
[194]Mr.
[196]Mr.
[198]Schwarz... Did.he hand the pills to you?
[199]O'Connell. Yes. |
[201]Schwarz. Did he know what the pills were for?
[202]O'Connell. I don't think so.
[204]Schwarz. But he knew they were illegal?
[205]O'Connell. He knew they were illegal.
[207]Schwarz. And were the pills not tried out on some
[209]experimental subjects in the U.S.?
[211]Mr.
[213]Mr.
[215]Mr.
[216]that, we
[217]Mr.
[219]Mr.
[221]Mr.
[223]Mr.
[224]Mr.
[226]Mr.
[228]‘Mr.
[230]O'Connell. Yes.
[232]Schwarz. And proven to be lethal?
[234]O'Connell. Well, to the extent -- I will tell you
[235]used them on hamsters.
[237]Schwarz. And. also monkeys?
[239]O'Connell. No, as far as I know, just the hamsters.
[241]-Schwarz. But anyway, you knew they were lethal.
[243]O'Connell. Yes.
[244]Schwarz. And you handed them over to Rosselli?
[245]O'Connell. Yes.
[247]Schwarz. And had the Technical Services made poison
[249]pills before as far as you know?
[251]Mr.
[253]This was
[255]O'Connell. As far as I know. I have no idea.
[257]my first experience with that sort of thing.
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[263]Phane (Area 202) 544-6000
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[273]WARD & PAUL
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[301]your possession, that might give you a more accurate timing tha
[302]I am giving to you now.
[304]Mr. Madigan. We don't have it presently.
[306]Mr. O'Connell. I am sure it is over there.
[308]Mr. Wides, With regard to the discussion of authorization
[309]would it have been following on Mr. Madigan's point, that this
[310]was a fairly serious and unusual operation that you were given,
[311]and that you would have asked, is this authorized? Or how did
[312]the question of Mr. Dulles authorizing it come up, as best you
[313]recall?
[315]Mr. o'conhell. I told you, I knew that Mr. Dulles -- I wa
[316]told that Mr. Dulles had authorized it, I can't say quite when
[317]it happened, but I know I was told.
[319]Mr. Wides. You testified this morning -- I don't want
[320]to put words in your mouth -- I thought you testified that you
[321]were sure that Mr. Edwards told you at this meeting when he fir
[322]gave you the assignment that you were not sure that Mr. Bissell
[323]also mentioned that when you later met in your office.
[325]Mr. O'Connell. I would stick with that, yes. I think it.
[326]probably was when I -- when Colonel Edwards called me he
[328]Said, this probably has the blessing of the DCI.
[330]Mr. Wides, Do you know if[Dr. Vv.
[332]2,
[334]was head of the Technical Services Division at the time, was
[335]witnessing about this?
[337]Mr. O'Connell. I wouldn't want to bet my life that he
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[350]$ 1 wasn't. But he was at a meeting when the bills were delivered,
[351]t
[352]8 e and | Diarrerchilérg came over to Colonel Edwards'office.
[353]zs 5 Mr. Wides. But you don't recall whether you ever knew
[354]? a Pegeres
[355]& 4 that(Psegen knew what it was in connection with as distinct
[356]5 from merely knowing it was a lethal pill, is that right?
[358]6 Mr. O'Connell. I can't say ~- to my personal knowledge,
[360]? the discussion never came up when I was there, I don't think
[362]=e is any dummy, and
[364]8 he is a dummy, and I don't think}
[365]9 I think they had a general idea.
[367]10 But as far as I know they were never officially told.
[369]il Mr. Wides. To your knowledge, before you went overseas
[370]12 no one else in the office of Security, Mr. Bannerman, Mr.
[372]14 White or Mr. Hall, none of those men or anyone else knew about
[374]Near
[376]WARD & PAUL
[378]14 the project, only yourself and Mr. Edwards?
[380]15 Mr. O'Connell. Well, I would say this, to my knowledge
[382]16 they were never briefed. However, I think I brought up an
[384]17 incident this morning where Colonel Edwards was on leave and
[386]18 Cohonel King called Mr. Bannerman, who was his
[388]19 deputy, and assumed that Bannerman knew all about it and started
[390]20 talking about it, what are we going to do about
[392]21 this -- I don't know what the conversation was about. And
[394]20 Bannerman called in and said, what was this all about?
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[398]23 Mr. Wides. This was in 1962 before you left?
[400]24 Mr. O'Connell. Yes. It was while I was up in the office.
[403]25 And I said, I don't have the authority to brief you on it.
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[439]Mr. Wides. Were you ever aware, whether you were formall
[440]notified or just got a rumble or heard through the grapevine,
[441]that the CIA was getting some information about these threats,
[442]or some information about groups who might pose a threat in the
[444]Washington area, not from Bureau sources or military sources,
[446]but from CIA sources, did you ever hear any rumble of that kind
[448]Mr. O'Connell. Yes.
[449]Mr. Wides. What did you hear?
[450]Mr. O'Connell. The only way I got involved in it was that
[452]Howard Osborn would have a nine o'clock meeting every
[453]morning with his deputies.
[455]And they had a proprietary organization in the Office of
[456]Security which I think had informants.
[458]Now, I don't know their identities, but it would come out
[459]in the meeting, and they would have some names for them. I
[460]couldn't tell you what they were.
[462]Mr. Madigan. What was the proprietary called?
[463]The name that strikes me -- ana I
[465]Mr. O'Connell.
[467]know part of it, but I couldn't tell you exactly -- I think it
[469]oe
[471]Eindenson
[473]was
[475]Mr.
[476]Mr. Wides. You say you think they had informants?
[477]Mr. O'Connell. They obviously did, I guess, because the
[479]way this would come out, so-and-so advised at a meeting last
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[490]: i night.
[491]ne 2 Mr. Wides. If you associate that with ligAnder one
[492]g Woke you must have been told more than just, we have an informant.
[493]4 How would it be discussed at the meeting, through this
[495]5 proprietary we have access to information?
[497]6 Mr. O'Connell. No, it usually would be the Deputy
[499]? Director that that was under. And that was under OIS.
[501]8 Mr. Wides. Victor White? |
[503]9 Mr. O'Connell. Victor White.
[505]10 Mr. Wides. And what would he say about howgfimieinson
[507]11 fitted into the picture?
[509]12 Mr. O'Connell. That never came up. I just drew that
[511]13 conclusion, that they had potential.
[513]WARD & PAUL
[515]14 ' Mr. Wides. Why would you assume that they used a proprie-
[517]15 tary as opposed to just having some agents penetrate a group?
[519]16 Why would you think in terms of their using the #
[521]17 Mr. O'Connell. I can tell you what I think.
[522]18 First of all, I wouldn't want to use government employees.
[523]19 Mr. Wides. Why couldn't the CIA personnel just run
[525]20 agents who would be ~--
[527]21 Mr. O'Connell. That is in fact what they were doing.
[529]ep2 i. These people that were proprietary were not CIA employees. They
[531]C_ ey
[532]23 vere Woibract teams.
[534]24 Mr, Wides. Why would you have thought that they would have
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[584]143
[586]Did you have any knowledge during the 1970-1971 time frame
[587]of any effort outside of Florida with regard to Cubans to fire
[588]On the Keys or on the Florida area there with a boat that
[589]would be disguised as a Russian boat, which was really a
[590]group of people, some of whom were assets of the Agency?
[592]Mr. O'Connell. No.
[594]Mr, Madigan. You never heard of anything Like that?
[595]Mr, O'Connell. Nothing of that, no.
[597]Mr. Madigan. Did you ever run across a fellow by
[598]the name of Jerry Henning in your dealing with Roselli
[599]and Maheu? |
[601]Mr.O'Connell. No.
[603]Mr. Madigan. You never heard of the name?
[605]Mr. O'Connell. I never heard of the name.
[607]Mr. Madigan. Did you handle the Agency contact with Mr.
[609]Maheu about having him coordinate or set up or be involved
[611]Mr. Madigan. A couple GEtet
[613]Mr. O'Connell, Yes.
[615]Mr. Madigan, What was your involvement in that? Am I
[616]right about 1959?
[618]Mr. O'Connell. It could be. There were two different
[619]Occasions. : - N.
[621]. :
[622]Mr. Madigan. What is your recollection as to the dates?
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[634]$ 1 Mr .O'Connell. Well, the first one was - about
[635]Bf
[636]x 2 1959,
[638]z 3 Mr. Madigan. And how did that come about? Why did it go to
[639]FE A you in the Office of Security as opposed to --
[640]5 Mr. O'Connell. Just like this other one came down from the
[641]6 DDP, it came from the Division, as
[642]y ‘| r recall it. and was coming into the --
[643]8 Mr. Wides. Off the record.
[644]9 (Discussion off the record.)
[645]10 Mr, Madigan. What did your first contact with Maheu
[646]11 with regard to this project involve?
[647]12 Mr. O'Connell. Well, the request came to the Security.
[648]a
[649]pe] .
[650]é 13 Mr. Madigan. It came down to you?
[651]a
[652]< 14 Mr. O*Connell. It came through Colonel Edwards.
[653]15 Mr. Madigan. To you?
[654]16
[655]1?
[656]18
[657]” 19)
[658]; 20 O'Connell.
[659]fal .
[660]é 51 Mr. Madigan. So did you contact Maheu directly?
[661]Fs Mr, O'Connell. Yes.
[662]= 22
[663]ul 23 Mr. Wides. In this instance you were talking about
[664]5
[665]3 24
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[675]4 : 4 cd said,
[677]5 j Hess, i wéerh New York. And we will
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[685]Mr. Madigan. 3
[686]13
[688]Mr. OfConnell.
[690]WARD @ PAUL
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[696]18 )
[697]° Me bain Specs. And he did. And ‘she
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[759]yi we thought was going to be a pas
[761]decided he had&
[763]Strings.
[764]So, we agree ar we had to keep
[765]her in one hdfel -- she was staying at the Waldorf-
[766]. Sy
[768]Mr. Madigan.
[770]Mr. O'Connell. seiier
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[810]2S wasn’G holding: er?
[812]Mr. Madigan. And was that the end of that particular
[814]project that you recall?
[818]Mr. Wides. ‘Analirouuce:
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[833]Mr.
[835]Mr.
[837]Mr.
[839]Mr.
[841]Mr.
[843]Mr.
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[866]SANE OVERSEAS,
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[882]- 4
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[885]= 4
[886]5 Mr. Madigan. Did Maheu set that up?
[887]6 Mr. O'Connelll. Yes.
[888]9” Mr. Mdigan. Both the original contact and the later. party
[889]8 in San Francisco?
[890]9 Mr. O'Connell. Yes.
[891]10 Mr. Madigan. And were those the only two times now that
[892]ll he was involved in the operations’ field?
[893]121 Mr. O'Connelll. Oh, no. He did a lot of other things.
[894]a
[895]=]
[896]< 13 . Mr. Madigan. Let me ask you this question.
[898]a . .
[899]@ q When Maheu was having his problems with the authorities,
[900]z 14
[901]15 was there any reference back to his involvement in those kind o
[902]16 activities, or was the only discussion about his role in
[903]17 the so-called assassination plot?
[904]18 Mr. O'Connell. Well, I am not even so sure that they got
[905]19 into that aspect of it. It was just that he was involved
[906]8 20 to the extent that he had set up the operation against Rowan,
[907]G
[908]= 6 -
[909]¢ 2] or he was the one that got in touch with DuBois to do it.
[910]& 20 Mr. Wides. When did you come back from overseas?
[911]3
[912]4 23 Mr. O'Connell. July of 1965,
[913]a Fe 24 Mr, Wides. After you came back did you learn of a time,
[914]S 25 either after you came back or very shortly before you came
[915]3 ; tee aan 7 ;
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[958]Mr. O'Connell. Never, to my knowledge he'never got
[959]involved in that, officially or otherwise.
[960]Mr. Wides. Or surreptitious entry?
[961]Mr. O'Connell. He did one surreptitious entry for us once
[962]Mr. Wides, What were the specifics of that?
[964]Mr, O'Connell, There were a group of BERMTINGN students.
[966]Reand_£
[968]hey were going to they
[970]nay
[971]guuisielesr.4 And they were staying
[973]a oe
[975]in a rooming house up there right outside of Georgetown some-
[977]here. And one of the students{€ame to the case SeRiesnuy
[979]ean said that one of the group was acting very suspiciously,
[980]taking a lot of notes where they were not supposed to be taking
[981]notes,or: certainly after operational briefings, and he would go
[982]back to his room and he would write voluminous notes. And
[984]he thought that was very strange that this guy was not acting
[986]as he should.
[988]And that aroused the suspicion [BE He
[989]And they wanted to know whether we would get in and photo-
[990]graph what he was writing to see whether he was really
[991]violating his agreement.
[993]So I called Maheu and he went up to the rooming house, an
[994]he went to the people who owned the house and asked if they
[996]‘had a room to rent and she had one. And he did know where the
[998]students were staying. And she showed him one room. And
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[1006]160
[1007]ae) : 1 he said, anything uv on thenext floor? And as luck would
[1008]~ : 2 have it, she had the adjacent room.
[1009]i 5 So he brought what would appear to be a suitcase up there,
[1010]2 4 which was his photographic equipment. And we knew the students
[1011]5 were in school, and fthegeaseg
[1012]6 _they came back, so he wouldn't get caught in the act.
[1013]? And he went in, it was a very simple matter. It was
[1014]8 a tin box that he could open with a paper clip and he took it ont
[1015]9 and photographed it, and put the case back in the drawer and
[1017]10 locked up and left.
[1019]LL But Generac
[1021]a
[1022]the a
[1024]Borless was a gal, a woman. And “she was
[1026]12 looking at one part of the school over there. And this guy
[1028]a
[1029]2
[1030]— < 13 comes out the. back door. And as Maheu was coming down the
[1031]: La Stairs the students were coming up, with amatter of maybe
[1032]15 a split second timing.
[1033]16 Mr. Madigan. This wasn't Mendoz?
[1034]1? Mr. O'Connell. . 3
[1035]18 Mr. Wides. What period was this that we are talking
[1037]19 about?
[1039]Mr, O'Connell. This woulda have been about 1955,
[1041]20
[1042]21 Mr. Wides. And other than that, and the two incidents
[1043]22 involving female companioship, what other kinds of sensitive
[1045]23 things would he undertake? Was that in the period that you
[1047]24 were paying him 500 a month?
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[1051]25 IL. .. Mr. O'Connell. We stopped paying the 500 way back when he
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[1060]8 1 nature as opposed to routine?
[1061]9 :
[1062]S 2 Mr. O'Connell. We had word that they wanted to --
[1063]o
[1064]a 3
[1065]3 wee reasonably certain -~ he@@eemauutecddady.s i
[1066]3
[1067]& é 13 And this was all done by people that knew generally what
[1069]& they looked like.
[1070]= 14
[1072]Now, we got Bob to make that film.
[1074]15
[1076]16
[1078]Een Mee gene ite gee peg ee age oe ee NE ee gg tte ed
[1079]Madetafilnvof.thedforeign ‘Leader’ when He-was~ ing
[1081]17
[1083]18
[1085]19
[1087]oo | QRgEy-at the Soviets, was. that. the purpose?
[1089]Mr.O'Connell. scliudGn"e°know whether they khew that-the—
[1090]21 er : 7 y #
[1092]oo | GSsvists had made.the.film...But the purpose of the exercise f
[1094]xculated in his own country, or /
[1096]23 Was to. have..a film ci
[1098]2A meighboring countries, that would make him quite upset with ”
[1099]jneighborin intries, that ¥ Re n . :
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[1113]163 *
[1114]3 1 Mr. Wides. nyOunheanEhey thought that the Ruseian
[1115]4 ee
[1116]i 3 Mr. O'Connell JiYes, to embarrass
[1117]F 4 Mr. Madigan. And that was accomplished as far as you know?
[1118]5 Mr. O'Connell. The film was made, but they never did
[1119]6 | release it, because things started to get better with the
[1120]9 leader, and they felt that they wouldn't use it.
[1121]8 Mr. Madigan. Were Agency facilities used by Maheu for
[1122]9 the production of this thing?
[1123]10 Mr. O'Connell . No. I hired-a small independent studio i
[1124]ll Los Angeles.
[1126]12 Mr. Madigan. And did Agency officials fly out there,
[1128]4
[1129]@ . 13 the ones that knew about the backdrop and all that? How was
[1130]: 14 that done? _a
[1131]15 Mr. O'Connell. It seems to me that they were just --
[1132]16 at this point I am not too sure whether they superimposed it,
[1133]7 I guess is the word, with that background. I am not so
[1134]18 sure at this point, it has been so long ago. That was away in
[1135]. 19 the mid-fifties.
[1136]: 20 Mr. Wides. Could we get back to the question that we had
[1137]: 21 started on, which was the files -and where they would exist?
[1138]: 20 You said that the operational files from all of your dealing
[1139]: 23 with him would be in the Family Jewels, because they were all
[1140]@: 24 |” sensitive admissions.
[1141]: 25 Mr. O'Connell. Yes.
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[1150]g
[1151]@ é 1 Mr. O'Connell. No.
[1152]g 2 Mr. Wides. Or Max Gonzales.
[1153]z 5 Mr. O'Connell. No.
[1154]é 4 Mr. Wides. While you were down there -- and this
[1155]5 May overlap the question that. Mr. Madigan asked before, but
[1156]6 I think it is a little more ~~ did you have any awareness of
[1157]v4 any other efforts apart from Mr. Verona by Cubans in connec-
[1158]8 tion with the Agency to try and assassinate Castro?
[1159]9 Mr. O'Connell. No, none whatsoever.
[1160]10 Mr. Wides. I don't have any other questions.
[1161]1l Mr. Madigan. In your operational activities with Mr.
[1162]4 12 Maheu, particularly in the New York area, did you ever have con
[1163]; 3
[1164]® ; 13 tact with a private investigator by the name of A. J.
[1165]is)
[1167]15 Mr. O'Connell. No, I never heard of him.
[1168]16 Mr. Wides. Do you know why there were two field
[1169]19 offices in New York, two iffices in Manhatten?
[1170]18 What was the difference?
[1171]19° Mr. O'Connell. The cover. (§ONE Was under Treasury covey
[1172]20 || Gand the other under’ Defense.
[1173]“el ; Mr. Wides. Were there two offices?
[1174]22 Mr. O'Connell. Why, they had them, it just grew like
[1176]23 Topsy. They had two offices in Washington, and they had two
[1178]24 offices in New York, And really the basis -- it was that that
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[1182]25 was the way they started, they figured they needed two
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[1191]1 different type covers because of the type of work they were
[1192]2 doing.
[1194]5 Mr. Wides. What would the New York offices do as dis-
[1196]Prone (Area 202) 544-6000
[1198]4 tinct from the Manhattan offices, or vice versa?
[1199]5 Mr. O'Connell. Nothing. They were basically investigative
[1201]6 offices.
[1203]i Mr. Wides. They just happened to have two?
[1205]8 Mr.O'Connell. They had two. ¢
[1207]10 The Manhattan field office. And then they eventually merged.
[1209]11 Now they are over on (@aiecnanusnue
[1210]12 Mr. Wides. Thank you very much. That concludes the session,
[1211]13 And we appreciate your staying so long.
[1213]14 (Whereupon, at 1:25 p.m., the hearing was concluded.)
[1215]WARD & PAUL
[1217]end
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