[1]180-10131-10324
[3]| 2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992 |
[5]JFK Assassination System Date: 10/19/20
[7]Identification Form
[9]AGENCY :
[10]RECORD NUMBER :
[12]RECORD SERIES :
[14]Agency Information
[16]HSCA
[17]180-1013 1-10324
[19]SECURITY CLASSIFIED TESTIMONY -
[21]AGENCY FILENUMBER: 014724
[22]Document Information
[23]ORIGINATOR: HSCA
[24]FROM: NOSENKO, YURI
[25]TO:
[26]TITLE: TESTIMONY OF YURI IVANOVICH NOSENKO
[27]DATE: 06/20/1978
[28]PAGES: 141
[29]SUBJECTS :
[30]CIA, METHODOLOGY
[31]KGB, FILES
[32]KGB, METHODOLOGY
[33]MCMILLAN, PRISCILLA JOHNSON
[34]SOLIE, BRUCE
[35]NOSENKO, YURI, TESTIMONY BEFORE THE COMMITTEE
[36]OSWALD, LEE, RUSSIAN PERIOD
[37]OSWALD, LEE, RUSSIAN PERIOD, DEFECTION TO RUSSIA
[38]MEXICO CITY
[39]DOCUMENT TYPE: TRANSCRIPT
[40]CLASSIFICATION: — Top Secret
[41]RESTRICTIONS: — Consulted
[42]CURRENT STATUS: — Withhold
[43]DATE OF LASTREVIEW: — 08/21/1993
[44]OPENING CRITERIA :
[45]COMMENTS : Folder 2 of 2. Box 4
[49]HW 50955 DoclId: 32277209 Page i
[51]PAGE
[52]Received
[54]Marked
[55]10
[56]18
[57]24
[58]32
[59]49
[62]Ex] al
[63]4] |
[64]pal cal
[65]Soa el
[66]gi.
[70]Resumed
[73]>I
[74]pa]
[76]Page 2
[80]{TESTIMONY OF
[82]HW 50955 Docld:32277209
[85]‘Present: Representatives Stokes, Preyer, Burke, Fithian, |
[87]na oe - mylene bey
[88]: THOMAS,’srs 4 ERS A ey he 1
[89]retype smnp i : - Sem aT 7 ;
[90]: Te I ;
[91]| 1 EXECUTIVE SESSION
[92]if !
[93]2 il a
[94]poe I i
[96]: u . a By i
[97]| Tuesday,: June 20/1978 75
[98]i H . , to
[99]oy i
[100], Ao
[101]|
[102]U.S. House of Representatives,
[103]Select Committee on Assassinations]
[104]|
[105]: Subcommittee on the Assassination
[106]. of John F. Kennedy
[107]Washington, D. C. |
[108]|
[109]The Committee met, pursuant to recess, at 6:20 o'clock |
[110]. . 4
[111]#p.m., in Room. 1=D,. Headquarters, Central Intelligence Agency, |
[112]Po a ;
[113]: \Langley, Virginia, the Honorable Louis Stokes (Chairman of |
[114]a . {
[115]| - |
[116]ithe Committee) presiding. !
[117]i t
[118]i
[119]|
[121]‘Devine and Sawyer. i
[122]i os .
[123]= “Also present: G. R. Blakey, G. Cornwell, M. Goldsmith, i
[124]oo }
[125]. Morrison, E. Berning, M. Jackson, J. Smith, K. Kléin and |
[126]HI i
[127]5 ji - Brady. |
[129]| The Chairman. The Committee will come to order. :
[130]H At this time the Committee will resume its sitting. We
[131]i : : ; a i
[132]“22 fare still in executive session by virtue of the resolution
[133]i oo ‘"
[134]4 . . . -
[135]. “i ladopted by the Committee this past evening. :
[136]- i
[137]i 7 i
[138]ac i + oa . . . |
[139]sy At this time the Chair will recognize Mr. Blakey. t
[140]i . 7 i
[141]a5 8 Mr. Blakey. Off the record. 4
[142]it , : ; i
[143]z ; SR yp : SB me “gs ;
[144]: ae th i . ; |
[147]50955 Docld: 32277209 Page 3
[150]: ! “(Discussion off the -record.) . :
[152]_ 2 | The-Chairman. Anything further? |
[153]3 | Bring the witness in.
[155]. ; 4 Let the record reflect that the Committee has’ resumed ied
[156]| g | Sitting and at this time the witness, vuri Nosenko, is back |
[157]; before the Committee once again. |
[159]7 | “Mr. Nosenko, I admonish you that you are still under the
[161]5 = that you took last night. |
[163]3 TESTIMONY OF YURI IVANOVICH NOSENKO ~~ Resumed . |
[165]10 Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.- |
[167], i | The Chairman. And at this time, then, the: Committee vl
[169]12 | recognize the counsel for the Committee, Me. Klein. | |
[171]13 Mr. Klein. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. |
[173]14 Good evening. i
[175]15 | Mr. Nosenko. Good evening, sir.
[177]|
[179]16 | Mr. Klein. You told us that after the assassination
[181]i
[183]7 you had an opportunity to be present when Oswald's file. was '
[185]'3/ brought from Minsk, is that right? . |
[187]9 | Mr. Nosenko.. Absolutely right. i
[188]| Mr. Klein. pid you have an opportunity to read the entite
[190]an file at that time? :
[192]“Mr. Nosenko. No, sir. 7 [
[196]‘Mr. Klein. How much of the file did you read?’ |
[199]Mr. Nosenko. It was simply looking, page by page,. first;
[201]i
[203]part of the first volume.
[205]| : , a 4 .
[206]} PR
[208]50955  Boold: 32277209 Page 4
[212]on]
[213]4
[216]rita
[220]Mr. Klein. You went through the first part of the first
[222]Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.
[224]oo
[226]Mr. Nosenko. The summary was written by the First
[228]page by page?.
[230]Klein. Did you go through any’ of the other volumes?
[231]Nosenko. No, sir.
[233]Klein. You told us that an officer named Matveev
[234]file away. to prepare a summary?
[236]Nosenko. Right.
[238]Klein. Do you know who wrote that summary?
[240]Department of the Second Chief Directorate.
[242]“that they wrote?
[244]Mr. Nosenko. Well,.the file was taken in the First
[246]Department. I was working in the Seventh Department.
[247]Mr. Klein. Did you make any attempt to read it? .
[249]Mr. Nosenko. No.
[251]t
[252]Kiein. Do you know who, in particular? . |
[253]|
[254]Nosenko. No, sir, I do not know.
[258]Klein. And did you ever have an opportunity to read |
[260]the summary that the First Department prepared? |
[261]|
[262]Nosenko. No, sir; I didn't see it. i
[264]'
[266]Klein. The Russian word “spravka", does that mean -~
[268]Nosenko. Is summary, right.
[270]Klein. And why were you not able to read the summary
[272]i
[273])
[274]i
[275](
[277]Klein. Was it at all unusual that with all your
[280]saa ag et ents mee ED oe rt
[282]it
[283]VW
[285]“1a [onion
[287]q{ 50955 Bocid:
[289]od
[293]‘Mr. Klein.
[295]‘read’ that file?
[296]Mr. Nosenko.
[298]Second Chief Directorate,
[300]Mr. Klein.
[304]SLGHE]
[306]You didn't even ask to see it?
[308]Mr. Nosenko. No.:
[310]10 allowed to see it?
[311]1” Mr. Klein.
[315]t
[317]1S. decided he
[319]|
[323]n | Mr. Nosenko. No, it was not unusual.
[324]| 7 . oo,
[326]|
[327]i .
[328], was uninteresting.
[331]“is feo Lee Harvey Osw
[334]You have testified before this Committee that
[336]the KGB did not allow Lee Harvey Oswald to defect
[338]ald because he was uninteresting;
[340]ane
[342]You have testified the KGB did
[344]was not interesting without speaking to him.
[346]Do you know what year Lee Harvey Oswald came
[348]ig Mr. Nosenko. 1959.
[350]7
[351]i ;
[352]20 | Mr. Klein.
[353]I
[354]|
[358]In 1959, approximately how many Americans
[360]Mr. Nosenko. There was a defectionist,
[362]I remember, —
[364]lo the employees, one of the workers, who was helping to or-
[366]25 Ieanize the American Exhibition in Moscow, Mr. Webster.
[368]32277209 Page 6
[370]involvement in the case you did not have an opportunity to
[372]It was the decision of the Chief of the
[374]given big importance to this questi
[376]5 | that a resume will be prepared by the most prestigious depart-
[377]mr ment, American Department, and that is why we couldn! t even a
[379]So it was not unusual that you were not a
[381]because he
[383]and that you
[384]4
[386]one
[388]q
[390]i
[391]H
[393]to the Soviee
[397]Ny
[399]k.
[401]ee oe ane
[403]not even spdak
[405]t
[409]Mr. Klein. Without giving particular names, how many
[411]Americans would you say asked permission to defect in 1959? |
[413]a
[415]What would the number be?
[417]AAT ce TE
[418]y
[419]AS
[421]- Fa
[423]Mr. Nosenko. These two \were known to me -~- Oswald and
[425]in
[428]| Webster.
[429]a Mr. Klein. From 1955 to 1960, what would be your best
[430]i : . t
[432]‘ estimate as to how many Americans asked permission to defect
[433]| :
[434]g I to the Soviet Union?
[435]| ; .
[436]° F Mr. Nosenko. As far as I heard, there I think was one.
[437]io. -
[438]: only. |
[439]-f t
[440]11 . . ; \
[441]Mr. Klein. One other, meaning three altogether.
[442]i
[443]2 | | : :
[444]i Mr. Nosenko. One besides Oswald and Webster, what I. |
[445]13 | as
[446]} know. 7
[447]14 | Loe “|
[448]Mr. Klein. Three? a
[449]ag! eee ae 7 |
[450]Mr. ‘Nosenko.” T hree. |
[451]’ ]
[452]| . Mr. Klein. Of the three, was Oswald the only one turned |
[453]|down because he was uninteresting? |
[454]a “Mr..Nosenko. Right... _
[455]: 49 . Le ; Ot |
[456]| Mr. Klein. Do you know any other defector who was ever !
[457]20 | | | na |
[458]“i turned down because he was uninteresting?
[459]Zz) 7 .
[460]| ;
[461]ae Mr. Nosenko. No.
[463]: os . 4
[464]| Allow me.to tell, as you have seen, and you told yourselves,
[465]‘. f 3 il. . : , .
[466]—_ i i
[467]| how many Americans are defected. It isa very rare occasion - and
[468]a bo
[469]7 ne | kop prefers defection when they are planning, they want, these,
[471]Ao |
[472]types of defectors, ‘hey like and invite those people who can |
[474]I
[475]i
[480]( 50955 pocld:32277209 Page 72°:
[483]inh EGAE: re
[485]| :
[486]: \ give them certain information which is ‘inate. |
[487]3 | Mr. Klein. Do you ees telling this Committee yesterday
[488]| that “up until, 960. ne Seventh Department was recruiting
[489]‘ je and’ right? | |
[490]os: , Mr, Nosenko, |Absolutely right, :
[491]5 Mr. Klein. And that’ you recruited a woman in Utah who “ye ~~
[492]| oe Mr. Nosenko. *| I, “simply had. given example of this recruits
[493]| 5 Ment which took place up to. 1960. When Seventh Department was
[494]. _ | rectuitng and giving files to the intelligence Service, Pixst|
[495]10 Chief Directorate, not asking them before, is it person will ks
[496]oy | be for. them valuable or not. a0
[497]i {
[498]| 12 | Mr. Klein. And that KGB officers were getting bonus
[499]3 | and promotions when they induced people to recruit? |
[500]‘a Mr .Nosenko. Right. | |
[501]| s! Mr. Klein. And despite that, Lee Harvey Oswald, when
[502]14 he asked to defect, you turned him down without even speaking’ to
[503]a , :
[504]i 7 him, to find out if he had any information; is that right? 7
[506]18 | Mr. Nosenko. Sir, we had quite a few recruitments in 159,
[507]. 7 a very big amount of them in '59. very interesting, much,
[508]28 | much more interesting ~~ professors cand teachers -- and -
[509]2 | even was a. GOrOps.c from. CIA. we had quite a few recruitnients|
[510]| ana: Oswald was nothing on: ‘this. base, on this foundation. .
[511]4 : . - i
[513]Mr. Klein. Would the ‘KGB have. any interest in an
[515]» American student? “ . Lo :
[516]d . 7
[517]: . on . ’ . , i
[519]“Mr. Nosenko. As I told you yesterday, KGB interested in}
[523]a
[525]ted
[527]as.
[529]end
[531]1G
[533]x
[534]3
[536]th
[538]“the Russian Language,
[540]7
[542]students, .but*particularly ‘those students who are studying
[544]Russian ‘history, Russian economy.
[546]Mr. Klein. And would they have any interest in an
[547]American who had strong anti-American views and who was a
[548]professed Marxist? Would they have any interest in that
[550]kind of person?
[552]Mr. Nosenko. | Here were are coming to a very interesting!
[553][ |
[555]|
[556]and sensitive question. From mid-1950, by the order of
[558]Central Committee Communist Party, Soviet Union, KGB was
[559]prohibited to make any approachment and recruitment of
[560]t
[562]members of the Communist Party of the West. -
[564]Mr. Klein. I am not asking about a member of the
[566]|
[567]Communist Party.
[568]. if
[570]| :
[571]Mr. Nosenko. Your question is, and if he.is some type
[573]of Marxist here, the question maybe he is possibly a member
[574]of Communist tParty, and to check it for KGB very difficult
[575]if he is a member of ‘Communist Party or not of his country.
[577]Mr. Klein. would they ask him if he is a member of
[578]the Communist Party?
[580]Would they check it?
[582]Mr. Nosenko. No, they would not ask him.
[584]Mr. Klein. they wouldn't ask him?
[586]|
[587]Mr. Nosenko. No.
[589]Mr. Klein. Would the Soviet Union be interested in
[591]someone who was in the military and worked with radar equipment?
[593]i
[597]4 ee lk tabbed ce eye a Ooo ARS
[599], “Pag @PaDrr :
[600]po, TEP SECRET ~
[602]nd
[604]Mr. Nosenko. No, sir; it is not enough “because they
[606]j
[608]if . . . . 7 . ;
[610]| Mr. Nosenko. It depends. If he was corporal, orice |
[612]. i is no big interest. If he was officer, maybe they would be,
[613]2 |
[615]| interested. “
[617]3 | | | 7 |
[619]© Mr. Klein. The fact that he worked with the equipment |
[621]| wouldn't be enough; they would want to know what his rank wasP
[623]5 }
[633]i
[635]Mr. Klein. And in 1959 would the Soviet Union. have been
[637]ror)
[639]NG
[641]interested in someone who sérved as a radar operator on an air
[643]base where U-2s took off and landed?
[645]|
[646]| had sources.
[647]|
[648]10 |
[650]4
[652]|
[653]| |
[654]a |
[655]"| Mr. Nosenko.. Yes, sir; it would be very interested. Pe
[657]Z
[658]” | Mr. Klein. It .is your testimony that Lee Harvey Oswaldr|:
[659]| I | . | 7 _
[660]) 3 i who was a student, who was a professed Marxist, who had -~- |
[661]an M | . . . : 0
[662]' i .
[663]wil Mr. Nosenio. Students? -I never heard that he was a |.
[664]i .
[665]: 15 student.
[666]a |
[667]| be | Mr. Klein. -- who had been a radar operator and had |
[669]i | . . . . . . . , Lo
[670]: 2 worked on a base from which U-2 airplanes took off and 4
[671]7 i. _
[672]13 | landed, that he wasn't even interesting enough for the KGB
[673]: iH : , i
[674]H
[675]i. 19 | to speak to him, to. find out if he knew any of this informatipn?
[676]* H : .
[677]i 2 | Mr. Nosenko. MrseKledns Jounderstand. yours positions. 5
[678]4 ; : : |
[679]t
[681]ont) butowebldidn't ‘know thatuheshadoany/-connectionswith Us2ae fa
[683]22 | flights.n..That is one thing.
[685]‘ . 7 !
[687]fl o |
[689]33 | And if you, Mr. Klein, are basing on what was written ny,
[691]242 Mr. Epstein in the.book, it is a little bit from the air
[695]H 1 . |
[696]Ao << ; taken ideas. Mr. Epstein even telling that how.important
[698]i i _
[700]i : |
[702]i i a ‘ea Ay |
[704]3 a f 1 f tee :
[706]f iy - ras Bes. ff Ae be. 4
[708]50955 Docld: 32277209 Page 10 -
[713]a
[717]“cae atads Ins
[718]~~)
[720]33
[722]24
[724]ag
[728]50955 Docld:32277209 Page 11
[730]a word about his knowledge, anything concerning U-2° flights.
[732]‘targets, very interesting targets.
[734]Tgp s FERET 9:
[735]PoLoned |
[736]for KGB to know about such base -- that base. We knew it
[737]in '50's when I worked in GRU at the Navy, in 1950, '5l1, '52.
[738]We knew every base and in Japan, at this Atsugi Base, and we
[739]knew what kind of airplanes had been. We didn't know about
[740]U-2, no. Sure, it is very interesting, but when Oswald
[742]applied, requested to stay in the Soviet Union, ,we didn't kno
[744]Mr. Klein. And you didn't ask him if he had any kind of |
[745]information about that when he wanted to defect, is that
[746]correct?
[748]Mr. Nosenko. No.
[752]Mr. Klein. And you told us that one reason that no one
[753]was working on Oswald was because all of your people were
[754]concentrating on the American Exhibition in 1959, is that
[756]correct?
[758].Mr. Nosenko. , Yes, sir. Not only American. Exhibition,
[760]there were other tourists and among them were interesting
[762]Mr. Klein. You told us yesterday that things didn't --
[764]Mr. Nosenko. T can explain you.why, because an American
[765]Exhibition in Moscow was by the information which KGB had, i
[766]I don't know how much it's right, how mach it's wrong, but it
[767]was suspected quite a number of people from American intelli-
[768]gence community who were working on American Exhibition in
[770]Moscow, and when the work is going on against such targets,
[773]wy eS tees ete gel tye Sie 38
[774]ome dark ROS a saan SUR DS eset
[776]re
[778]_
[779]AS
[783]i
[784]“|
[785]Ht
[786]|
[787]BI
[789]$0955 Docld:32277209 Paye 12 .
[791]ae 3 . 1
[793]aero
[795]is
[797]TOP SECRET
[799]on each case, because it is very serious target.
[800]Mr. Klein. Do you know what date Lee Harvey Oswald
[801]came to the Soviet Union?
[802]“Mtr, Nosehko.: -No, sir, I do not.
[803]MeKlein. Mr. Chaizman, I would ask that this
[804]. The Chairman. , Without objection.
[806](The document referred to was
[808]for identification.)
[809]Mr. Klein. ‘Looking at this document --
[810]Mr. Nosenko. Right.
[811]The Chairman. pia counsel want to identify for the
[812]record how the document has been. marked?
[814]The Clerk. JFK-F-2. a ee
[816]Mr. Klein. Looking at this document, does it say on)
[818]top "Visa and Registration Office, Interior Department,
[820]Executive. Committee of the Moscow City Council"?
[821]Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir. ?
[823]Mr. Klein. Do you recognize ‘that. type. of document?
[825]“Mr. Nosenko. Yes. It is from Department of giving» Visa
[827]of Internal Affairs of Moswcow City.?
[829]Mr. Klein. And does this appear to be an authentic
[831]it is not one officer; it isa big’ amount of people involved
[833]i
[834]document be marked for “identification and shown to the meses
[835]|
[836]j
[837]7
[838]|
[839]|
[840]{.
[842]marked as JFK Exhibit No; _F-2
[846]*P
[848]and Registrations, which is working under auspices of Directorate
[851]Pol, we
[852]|
[853]i
[855]H
[856]4
[859]document, an authentic copy of the document?
[861]Mr. Nosenko. Sure.
[863]dak
[865]Mr. Klein. Looking at Number 8, does it say what
[869]date Lee Harvey Oswald came. to the Soviet Union for the first
[871]|
[872]| sf Sime? we
[873]| ; | Mr. Nosenko. October, 1959.
[874]' i
[875]| Mr. Klein.. October what?
[876]1
[877]| Mr. Nosenko. October 16, 1959. _
[878]9 | Mr. Klein. I would ask that this document be marked for
[879]| identification, Mr. Chairman.
[880]h
[881]th The Chairman. Without objection.
[882]12 Would the clerk indicate for the record? |
[883]7 i3 The Clerk. JFK-F-3, Mr. Chairman. |
[885]bo is | ' (The document referred to was
[887]15: marked as JFK Exhibit No. F-3
[888]i : i
[889]16 | for identification.)
[890]i . }
[891]| Mr. Klein. Looking at the newspaper article clipping, on
[892]7 the right hand side, with the heading "U.S. Fair in Soviet |
[893]9 | Jammed at Close," do you se that? |
[894]| | Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir. |
[895]| Mr. Klein. And what is the date of that story? |
[896]2 | Mr. Nosenko. - The date is September 4, | |
[897]3 .
[898]Ne 8 i Mr. Klein. Are you aware of the fact that the American
[900]a Exhibition ended on September 4, more than a month before |
[901]df “ Oswald came to the Soviet Union? |
[902]| | Eat gaa, az; |
[903]| Ta i
[905]50955 Bocld: 32277209 Page 13
[907]‘a
[909]; | - Ww? Ba’ i
[910]- | Mr. Nosenko. Me. Klein, ‘I would like you to ask when
[911]toy . .
[912]a , 7 Americans who were |working for this Exhibition left Moscow.
[913], 3 | Mr. Klein. I will ask you another question.
[914]@ | Yesterday, when ‘I asked you if things got back to |
[915]a 7 normal once the fair Ended, aid you say yes?
[916]: ; | Mr. Nosenko. No, till they were Leave the Soviet i.
[917]; 7 | Onkon. No. They are the same targets. Okay, you are right,
[918]ptt is closed September 4th, but does it change the importanch
[919]| of these people against whom KGB was working? They were
[920]0 : still in- Moscow.
[921]| ; - Mr. Klein. Do you recall yesterday my asking you, did 7
[922]| 12 | things in your department get back to normali:: once the fair |.
[923]a ended, and do you recall saying yes? |
[924]wl Mr. Nosenko. Well, I meaning fair ended when left all :
[925]1s the people inyolved in work on Anerican Exhibition, Americans
[926]1s when they left, and they were staying quite a long time i
[927]i i _
[928]4? | after it was closed. -It was closed for visits for Soviet
[929]7 citizens, but. it took quite a time for them to leave. ;
[930]7 of. Mr. Klein. You also testified yesterday that Lee e Harvey,
[931]| _ 29 | oswaid vas allowed to stay in the Soviet Union after he said |
[932]| - : 2 | that he was. going to Preat himself if they sent him home.
[933]go. on
[934]22 — told us that’ he slashed his wrists and two psychiatrists i
[935]Ls 3 examined him and. both found him mentally unstable: a
[936]a i
[937]i
[939]Mr.-Nosenko. Right.
[941]Mr. Klein. What was the point of having the two
[945]4
[946]4
[947]2
[949]$0955 Bocld: 32277209 Page i4 -
[951]n>
[953]o
[955]we
[958]“| they were worried he might Jump out of the car or ao’ somethin
[960]50955 ‘Docla: 32277209 ©
[962]‘the next plane | out. of ‘Russia and thereby ended their ‘whole
[964]. you don' te: know what, he, will do.
[966]| like that?
[968]i
[969]i
[970]1,
[972]Mr. Nosenko. ‘I think’ simply to be assured that it was
[974]right found decision, ‘concerning this person. | Two ) independen .
[976]Mr. Klein. After they examined him, the decision was |
[978]made to let him stay; is that ‘correct?
[980]Mr. Nosenko. It is not because of the examination
[982]he was allowed to stay, Mr. Klein. ‘You are a little bit mixin
[984]things. He was allowed to stay because KGB and Soviet ‘Govern
[986]ment had come to the conclusion if this person will kill
[988]hurt the starting, the warming of Soviet-American relations.
[990]himself it will bereaction in newspapers, which can in any “|
[991]ls
[993]Mr. Klein. The Soviets were worried he would kill himse
[994]in the Soviet Union?
[995]r.. Nosenko. Right, if they would not allow him to
[996]i
[998]stay. i. “4
[1000]Mr. Klein. Could the KGB have taken him and put him on
[1002]problem - with Lee Harvey Oswald? °
[1003]Mr. Nosenko. , Tt is a very sensitive question. He- ‘can.
[1005]jump out of car. ts: he: decided, ‘if he is mentally unstable, |
[1007]Mrs. Klein. Do ‘you ‘think the KGB aidn' 't do that pecause|
[1009]Mr. Nosenko. -Simply a mentally unstable person, they
[1012]He ASS
[1013]Ks
[1014]B
[1016].
[1018]Page 15 |
[1021]ier)
[1023]oh
[1025]aa]
[1029]30955 Docid: 32277209 Page 16
[1031]“14
[1033]didn't want to go-it on any such action.
[1035]Mr. Klein. They would rather keep him in the Soviet
[1037]a iF
[1038]Union? i
[1039]t
[1040]I
[1042]Mr. Nosenko. No, they would rather prefer they washed
[1043]their hands, Mr. Klein; they are not making decision, KGB.
[1044]In, Soviet Union decisions are made by the Central Committee
[1046]i
[1048]of the Communist Party, and General Secretary and Politburo,
[1050]not by “KGB. - KGB a servant of the Politburo and Central Commit
[1051]tee communist Barty. | ° |
[1052]| fre.. Kteine. coing by the facts as you have told them |
[1053]to this Committee -- |
[1054]Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir. yo
[1055]Mr. Klein. ~- why wasn ‘t he put on a plane and sent |
[1057]back to America?
[1059]t
[1061]; |
[1062]; . : i
[1063]Mr. Nosenko. KGB washed their hands. Then from Tntourigt
[1065]it was given information Ministry of Foreign Trade; Ministry |
[1066]of Foreign Trade reported to the Soviet Government. As I said,
[1068]I assumed the Chairman was surely asked; he told his opinion
[1070]of the KGB, and up to the Soviet Government how they viould
[1071]‘decide.
[1072]Mr. Klein. Could he have been brought to the U.S.
[1074]“Embassy and told them he is an Anerican, "You take care of
[1076]him; we don't want him"? >
[1077]Mr. Nosenko. Ttcan be done, sure. It can be done, but
[1079]it wasn't done.
[1081]t
[1082]H
[1087]J
[1088]t
[1089]H
[1091]i
[1092]H
[1094]4
[1095]1
[1096]i
[1099]Y :
[1101]| : |
[1102]1 | Mr. Klein. Instead -théy ‘elected to allow him to stay |
[1103]3 ! indefinitely in the: Soviet union and they have to worry su
[1104]4 | him every single day, what an unstable American would do, is
[1105]4 | that correct? |
[1106]8 | Mr. Nosenko. They didn't allow, KGB didn't allow. Sovigt
[1107]5 | sovernnens allowed. |
[1108]“4 i Mr. Klein. The facts as you have testified to them are |
[1109]8 | that the KGB allowed this mentally unstable person to stay |
[1111]) | in Russia, and they sent him to Minsk to. live and work in a
[1112]| |
[1113]4 iG | radio factory. Then the KGB allowed this mentally unstable |
[1114]ij { individual to marry a Soviet woman, and then this mentally |
[1115]12 | unstable individual was allowed to joina hunting club where |
[1116]43 | he had access to a gun. ;
[1117]ia Can you think of any other cases in all the time you
[1118]1s | worked in the KGB where a mentally unstable person was
[1119]i |
[1120]a treated in thiskind of ‘manner? . |
[1121]"y Mr. Nosenko. I told you I do not know any other cases |
[1122]ay of mentally unstable, excluding one code clerk, American, vas |
[1123]" also mentally i11; he was delivered in Soviet Union. I heard |
[1124]mae I never have worked with him, I never have. seen him. 3
[1125]| And the thing is, I am sorry,. but you are putting and stressing
[1126]ac number of questioning, and it sounds so peculiar. “What does
[1127]“ ae mean, KGB allow him to marry? | |
[1128]“| Mr. Klein, in the Soviet Union there is by degree of |
[1129]se 4
[1131]i
[1133]i Presidium of Supreme Soviet U.S.S.R. a law allowing marriage of
[1134]i
[1136]scant Sait ad Mao
[1138]Ny
[1142]Page i?
[1145]RY
[1148]in
[1150]50955 Docld:
[1152]ie)
[1154]42
[1158]os
[1161]8:
[1163]i
[1165]32977209 Page is
[1167]‘ing seeing classified material. In these cases, KGB will try
[1171]Soviet citizens.with foreign. A foreigner can marry a Soviet),
[1172]- 7
[1173]citizen, by the law. There is not a thing that KGB can in any
[1175]way try not to give, not to make it possible, but this is in
[1177]cases when the person who is marrying a foreigner worked in
[1179]‘some senSitive place, let's say, in missiles, rocket
[1181]industry production, was in process of :any place of his work
[1183]to: put different type of fences. But it is unlawful. In
[1184]accordance with Soviet law, marriage is allowed; he doesn" "0
[1185]need to ask permission of Soviet Government or anyone. And hi
[1186]wife, Marina, wasn't working in any place which was sensitive
[1187]from the point of view of ‘Soviet security. |
[1189]Mentally unstable it doesn't mean that he is raving
[1191]mad; it is'mentally unstable.
[1193]spoken to when he first said he wanted to “defect but even after
[1195]the decision was made to allow him to remain in the Soviet
[1196]Union, still nobody from the KGB spoke to him, is that correct?
[1197]Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.
[1198]Mr. Klein. You also tetified to the extensive resources:
[1199]that were devoted to put physical and technical surveillance |
[1200]: i
[1202]on “Oswald. You told us the men involved, the time involved,
[1204]the facilities involved? . te
[1206]Mr. Nosenko. Right.
[1208]Mr. Klein. ‘Do you find great contradiction --
[1210]|
[1211]|
[1212]i
[1213]|
[1214]|
[1215]Mr. Klein. You testified that, not only was Oswald not
[1216]|
[1217]|
[1218]|
[1219]al
[1220]i
[1222]1 . Mre Nosenko. - No, sir..+
[1224]>| Mr. Kiein. -- in the fact .that, on the one hand, you
[1226]3 , put all these resources into following Oswald around, trying to
[1228]a
[1230]see who he talked to and what he does and, on the other hand, |
[1232]A
[1233]- | you don't even have a.person go and talk to him and ask him,
[1234]‘ | "Tell us your background; tell us about yourself."
[1236]a.
[1238]Is. there any contradiction? -
[1240]Mr. Nosenko. Even in the United States, yes, sure, for
[1244]you, for me just now American citizens, yes, sure, but there,
[1246]4)
[1248]no.
[1250]Mr. Klein. They don't talk to people there?
[1252]Mr. Nosenko.. They can talk and cannot to talk; but I
[1256]120
[1257]13 | don't see contradiction there. ‘Anyone; any foreigner who, wilt
[1258]is | be staying, even if this defector not on his own, but, let's |
[1259]; |
[1260]1s | say, KGB pushed him to stay, to defect, he still will be watched
[1261]i ee _: |
[1262]18 | ana on him-wiIl be put this same type of work that was 4
[1263]a put on Oswald, not less. | |
[1264]138 [. = Mr. Klein. You talk.about their society is different than
[1266]2) ours, Is it unusual that they allow an American to defect i
[1267]«| and. live there without ever questioning him, to ask nim if ne
[1268]1 is! an intelligence agent?
[1269]7 4 2 Mrs Nosenko. . on the ‘contrary, no doubt, let's say hee. !
[1270]o 7 was intelligence agent, what he ‘will itell them that he was ;
[1271]| sent with mission’ as intelligence. agent? Why to scare him? |
[1273]Let him live how he wants. We will be watching him. He
[1275]50955 Docld:32277209 -Page, 19
[1277]seenet eerie ene Gene oni
[1281]show by his behavior, by ‘his
[1283]will
[1285]ARG
[1287]your testimony?
[1291]Mr. Nosenko. “In this case they didn't speak with him
[1295]di, he was mentally. unstable.
[1296]‘Mr. Klein.. You.testified that you read the reports of
[1298]two. psychiatrists who examined Lee Harvey Oswald at the
[1300]Mr. Nosenko. Right.
[1302]i
[1304]7) Noeptiat asses he cut his wrist, is that. correct?
[1305]|
[1306]|
[1308]Mr. Klein: You said both found him mentally unstable?
[1310]ive Gai
[1312]Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.
[1314]Mr. Klein. You told us in geat detail how this
[1316]if | decision was made to have these psychiatrists examine him.
[1318]1s I would ask thatithis document be marked for
[1319]identification. —
[1323]The Chairman. ‘The clerk will identify for the record
[1325]marked as JFK Exhibit No. F-4
[1327]for identification. )
[1331]50955 Doclda: 32277209 Page 20
[1333]i Mr. Klein. ‘They purposely don't speak to him; is that
[1335]s | because he didn't present interest for the KGB and because -
[1337]8-1 the number appearing on the document.
[1339]9 The Clerk. It will be JFK-F-4.
[1341]20 (The document referred to was:
[1342]2]
[1344]~ | Mr. Klein. Have you ever seen that document before?
[1345]Ht ; a = ; a
[1347]iy Mr. Nosenko. No, sir. I haven't seen it.
[1348]“ | Mr. Klein. Were ‘you aware that the Soviet.Government.:: :
[1349]|
[1350]4
[1352]ee acess me nen en ne en et en nen ary enntaeen
[1356]Se net”
[1358]50955 DociId:
[1362]ND
[1364]32
[1368]EEE io Wai ELIS GE ch oe
[1370]3
[1372]iS
[1374]oe:
[1376]provided certain documents to the Warren Commission in 1964?
[1378]Mr. Nosenko. No, sir. T wasn't aware of this.
[1380]Mr. Klein. Looking at that document in front of you -~
[1382]Mr. Nosenko. Right.
[1384]Mr. Klein. -- is that-a hospital record?
[1386]Mr. Nosenko. oh, yes, sure. It is a hospital record.
[1388]Mr. Klein. . And whose hospital record? Does it have a
[1389]name on it?
[1391]Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir... It is from Botkin Hospital.
[1393]Mr. Klein. Whose name is it?
[1395]Mr. Nosenko. Lee Harvey Oswald.
[1397]Mr. Klein. Does it say what date he was admitted?
[1399]Mr. Nosenke. Discharged, admitted 23rd, discharged
[1400]28th.
[1402]Mr. Klein. What year is that?
[1404]Mr. Nosenko. October of 1959.
[1406]Mr. Klein. And does it have on the bottom the diagnosis
[1407]why he was in the hospital?
[1409]Mr. Nosenko. Incised wound of one-third of the left
[1411]forearm.
[1413]Mr. Klein. And that date, October of 1959, is that when
[1415]Oswald first came to the Soviet Union and cut his wrist?
[1416]Mr. Nosenko. I cannot tell you dates, sir. I do not
[1417]remember.
[1419]Mr. Klein. You have in front of you the other document
[1421]euecaee pete seeennnen seine cee niadee wine enien son evens cqavtinmeny anwiisy tans mart ae gimme sana ame iinne mimes mand ei ontmcerntan 2 yee
[1425]on
[1427]re)
[1429]‘what date? i
[1431]tell us if this is the hospital report from when Lee Harvey
[1433]which told -- Number. 8 ~— what cate he- ‘came to the Soviet union.
[1435]Is that still there? |
[1436]Mr. Nosenko. No, Sir. This is admittance to the hos- |
[1437]pital and dischargement. _ : |
[1438]Mr. Klein. . Number 8 |
[1442]Mr. Nosenko. Arrival, October 16.
[1444]Mr. Klein. And the date on the hospital admittance is
[1446]Mr. Nosenko. Twenty-third of October.
[1447]Mr. Klein. And would you turn to the hospital admittance
[1448]form, the one I just gave you, to the third page, please?
[1450]Mr. Nosenko. Yes.
[1452]‘Mr. Klein. And do you, see where it says "History of
[1453]Present Illness"?
[1454]Mr. Nosenko. No, I don't see.
[1456]Mr. Klein. On the third page?
[1458]Mr. Nosenko. -I have the third page.
[1460]Mr. Klein. It has Number 6 on the top of the page, but
[1461]it's the third page on the document.
[1462]Mr. Nosenko. oh, Number 6, History of Present Illness.
[1463]Yes. Just a second.
[1465]Mr. Klein. Would you glance through that and would you
[1467]Oswald cut his wrist and was taken to Bot;kin Hospital?
[1469]Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.
[1471]|
[1472]i
[1475]|
[1477]|
[1478]i
[1479]i
[1480]i
[1481]|
[1482]t
[1485]Pe
[1487]Page 22
[1489]al asa pin Cie bain tteen de man
[1491]50955 Docla
[1493]. a an cy le
[1496]page. It has a 13 on the right hand side.
[1498]BS
[1501]Do you see that page?
[1502]| ves
[1504]Mr.. Nosenko. ‘Yes, sir.”
[1508]r.Klein. The next to the last page.
[1510]Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.
[1512]<a
[1514]Mr. Klein. And do you see where it says, two-thirds —
[1515]| Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir. ,
[1516]Mr. Klein. Would you read what is said under that?
[1518]Mr. Nosenko. "His mind is clear; perception is correct;
[1520].. hallucination or deliriums. He answers the questions
[1522]| legible and logically; he has a firm desire to remain in the
[1523]1 . . . : . .
[1526]|
[1527]|
[1529]Soviet Union; no psychiatric symptoms were noted; the patient
[1531]is not dangerous for other people; his condition permits him,
[1532]to stay in Psychiatric Department by an order of the Assistant
[1533]to the Chief PHysicians, Dr. Kornika. The patient is
[1534]ievansferred to the Seventh Ward.
[1536]ig Mr. Klein. Is there ‘anything in there to indicate he is
[1538]i
[1539]t .
[1540]7 Mr. Nosenko. _Here I do not sée.
[1542]' os ;
[1544]Mr. Klein. Does that. Feport “indicate that he “was normal?
[1545]i . : ”
[1546]i
[1548]Mr. Nosenko. Here I do, not see what I have seen. But
[1549]oy lo
[1551]this | you receive from ‘the ‘soviet Government, - and if you think
[1556]f
[1558]you received the true’ things} what was in. file, you are wrong,
[1560]32277209 |
[1562]| -- Mr. Klein. | Now,. would you turn to the next to the last:
[1563]i Do :
[1565]|
[1567]if
[1569]|
[1571]of the way to the bottom, "Psychiatric Department" underlined?
[1573]|
[1575]|
[1577]i
[1579]i
[1581]|
[1582][.
[1583]i
[1584]id
[1586]|
[1587]t
[1588]|
[1589]|
[1591]|
[1593]i
[1594]i
[1595]i.
[1596]1
[1598]|
[1599]i
[1600]|
[1601]'
[1602]i
[1603]4
[1604]i
[1606]i
[1608]|
[1611]Klein.
[1612]>! Mr. Klein. And that document,..according::to you, is that
[1613]5 | not an authentic -copy? | |
[1614]7 Mr. Nosenko. KGB can prepare you any document. Take “|
[1615]5] the material, or ask the doctors who are cooperating with KGB |
[1616]P and they will prepare you any document. | .
[1618]Mr. Klein. I -am not asking you what they can do. Are.
[1620]you testifying that this document is not authentic, it is not}
[1622]ite ‘document? | bo he
[1623]ye i poe ah po
[1625]|
[1627]|
[1628]Mr. Nosenko. this document never was in ‘the file of “the,
[1629]a . _ \
[1630]|
[1631]i
[1632]|
[1634]Mr..Klein. $0 --
[1635]ea er & See oo
[1637]Mr. Nosenko. This ‘I testify.
[1638]Mr. Klein. -- it is your tetimony that the KGB sent us)
[1640]a I
[1641]a phony document?
[1643]Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.
[1644]Mr. Klein. You testified before this Committee that the: ‘e
[1645]f was periodiciphysical surveillance of Lee Harvey Oswald which
[1646]was ordered by Moscow, to be carried out in Minsk?
[1648]Mr. Nosenko. Right.
[1650]Mr. Klein. And you testified in detail about that,
[1652]and you told us how the physical surveillance consisted of
[1656]following Oswald for a month ‘or month and a. half at a timé,
[1658]and there werea number of people that would be involved, is’
[1660]3
[1661]a
[1664]that correct?
[1666]cele a woe teen nce ee ee cree ae eemepgr neem .
[1668]50955 Docld:32277209
[1670]Page 24
[1672]n>
[1676]oo
[1678]“OO
[1682]ta
[1684]n
[1686]_
[1688]ant
[1690]os
[1692]6
[1695]ni
[1697]wm 4
[1699]“
[1701]Re
[1702]ba
[1705]ts
[1707]Mr. Nosenko. Right.
[1709]Mr. Klein. It was a big operation?
[1710]Mr. Nosenko. Big operation? No, it's not a big
[1712]operation.
[1714]Mr. Klein. There were a number of people involved, worer
[1715]there?
[1717]Mr. Nosenko. It is not a big operation. It is routine.
[1718]In KGB it is a routine, nothing serious. It's not an |
[1720]operation even. It's surveillance, it's not an operation.
[1722]Mr. Klein... And have you ever stated that the only cover
[1723]: j
[1724]|
[1726]age of Oswald during his stay in Minsk consisted of periodic
[1728]checks at his place of employment, inquiry of neighbors and
[1730]associates and review of his mail? Have you ever stated
[1731]that was the only coverage of Oswald in Minsk? -
[1732]Mr. Nosenko. I stated before, and I stated it to you
[1734]yesterday, and I state now, that the order was given, and I
[1736]have seen it -~ to cover him by surveillance periodical, to
[1738]cover him by an agent watching in places of his living, places
[1740]|
[1741]_!
[1742]he is working, control over’ his correspondence and control of |
[1744]his telephone conversations. i
[1746]AD.
[1748]Mr. Klein. My question is, have you ever stated that the
[1749]only coverage was checking at his places of employment and
[1751]his neighbors and associates, and not say anything about
[1753]periodic, physical surveillance?
[1755]Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I cannot tell you what I stated. I wds
[1758]coed
[1760]re
[1762]AOS Si tna RASH  eTA
[1763]o.
[1765]ne ae
[1767]oe
[1771]ta
[1775]Me
[1776]Wg GAs a
[1778]ar
[1781]30955 DoctId: 32277209
[1783].they want to interrogate us.
[1785]‘interrogations; hundreds.
[1787]-you were questioned by the CIA during that period, is that
[1789]the number appearing on the..document:
[1791]24
[1793]for quite a big period of time, quite a few years, interrogat sd,
[1794]by hours, and in different types of conditions, including’
[1795]hostile conditions." |
[1797]: Mr. Klein. “chat'was biythe CIA?
[1799]Mr. Nosenko. Where they asked questions in such form’
[1801]ee |) eee
[1803]which later my answer will be interpreted in any way, however
[1805]Mr. Klein. That was by CIA?
[1807]Mr. Nosenko. And I cannot tell you what I did say. I
[1809]cannot remember: dates. You must understand, it's hundreds of
[1810]Mr. Klein. This Period that you are telling us about,
[1812]correct?
[1813]Mr. Nosenko. Yes, Sure.
[1815]4
[1817]Mr. Klein. Were you questioned. during that period by
[1818]FBI?
[1820]Mr. Nosenko.. I questioned by FBI in vebruary, yes. |
[1821]Mr. Klein. At. this time I would ask that this gocunent |
[1822]be marked for identification and shown to the witness.
[1824]The Chairman. The clerk will indicate. for the’ record
[1828]The Clerk. Exhibit SEK S. Se Co
[1829]a . oo
[1831]a
[1832]i
[1833]ut
[1834]|
[1835]I.
[1836]i
[1838]as JFK Exhibit No. F-5 for
[1841]laa RABRASH AA
[1843]g
[1844]i
[1846]3
[1848]2
[1850]np
[1852]|
[1853]| ' Gaentification.)
[1854]2 | Mr, Klein. | These hostile interrogations you just alluded
[1855]3 | to, did they lead you to state other than the truth to these
[1856]il interrogators? : i ao |
[1857]7 . Me Nosenko. I was answering questions which were put |
[1858]a : ' -
[1859]s| to me. |
[1860],| Mr. Klein. . Did you ever not tell the truth? |
[1861]. ; : : ]
[1862]7 Mr. Nosenko. No, I was telling the truth.
[1863]: i
[1864]9 : Mr. Klein. I would direct your attention -- |
[1865]10 | Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir. |
[1866]| Mr. Klein: .. Just a moment . Before you you have a 4
[1867]32 | Federal Bureau of Investigation report, is that correct? |
[1868]i a ; |
[1869]13 ; Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.”
[1870]ie Mr. Klein. Iwould direct your attention.to page 29 of 4
[1871]| : oe ke
[1872]“15 that report. ° } ee |
[1874]16 i Mr. Nosenko. Right. a - ,
[1875]7 Mx. Klein. The last paragraph, beginning with, "Nosenkg
[1876]i ;
[1877]a stated" -- it's underlined.; Would you please read that |
[1878]nie to us? |
[1879]a Mr. NOsenko. "Nosenko stated that in view of instructiog
[1880]a :
[1881]| from the KGB Moscow, no. active interest could be taken in |
[1882]foie : : ‘ a - . coat i
[1883]* | oswata in Minsk without obtaining prioz approval from KGB. |
[1884]© | in Moscow. According’ to Nosenko, no such approval was ever
[1885]24 |
[1887]i
[1888]. |
[1889]j ‘ . ‘ . . © t
[1890]i requested or granted,.and based on his experience, he opined |
[1891]that the only coverage of Oswald during this stay in Minsk
[1894]sect neko Seah a Roped eld Siena
[1896]50955 DociId:
[1898]P SECRET 28
[1899]i =
[1901]consisted of periodic” checks of his places of employment, |e
[1904]“a
[1905]2
[1907]ad
[1909]) inquiries of neighbors and associates, and review of his mail
[1910]Mr. Klein. pid you make that statement?
[1912]Mr. Nosenko. Yes; sir. What do you find here wrong?
[1914]4 |
[1915]o Mr. Klein. Does that statement say anything about
[1916]i oO :
[1917]“| physical surveillance?
[1918]{ .
[1920]Mr. Nosenko.. No, it didn't.
[1922]Mr. Klein. Did you forget to tell them about the physical
[1924]surveillance?
[1925]Mr. Nosenko. Maybe I forget; maybe they didn't put;
[1927]I do not know...
[1929]Mr. Klein. Do you recall speaking to agents Poptanich
[1931]| and Gheesling on March 3rd and 4th, 1964?
[1932]_ :
[1933]Mr. Nosenko. I cannot tell you. f do remember the date
[1934]: : . : |
[1935]no. ae "remember I: was, speaking with. _agents from FBI.
[1937]Mr. Klein. ~ when’) you ‘spoke to them, did you recall that
[1938]I they spoke to you at. that time, March 3rd and 4th, about
[1939]| Lee Harvey, Oswald?
[1941]ok
[1942], *
[1944]Mr. Nosenko. I told’ you, they were speaking with me -
[1945]about Oswald, but I cannot tell you the date whem.
[1946]Mr. Klein. Was it in March 19642.
[1948]Mr. .Nosenko.. They. were speaking with me -- February
[1950]and the beginning of March jof 1964.
[1952]w.
[1953]4
[1955]Mr. Kleins.-And did they tape the conversations?
[1957]23.
[1959]Mr. Nosenko. -Yes, they vere taping all conversations.
[1961]32277209 Page 28
[1968]in
[1970]i to
[1971]a ah
[1973]ho
[1974]oe
[1976]2
[1977]rn
[1979]‘7
[1981]|
[1983]i
[1984]on
[1985]i
[1987]i
[1991], ot : A : . ‘Le
[1992]a committee such as this investigating the assassination? .
[1994](50955 Decld:32277209 Page 29 ~
[1996]Mr...
[1997]talking?
[1999]Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir).
[2001]Mr. Klein. Did they ever’ show you those notes? :
[2003]Mr. Nosenko. No.
[2004]Mr. Klein. Were you aware that the statements you-were
[2006]ni : | . see - an . . 7 .
[2007]making to them were going to be written down in to a report?
[2009]Mr. Nosenko. Sure. °
[2011]1
[2012]1
[2013]'
[2014]|
[2015]'
[2017]Mr. Klein. Did you ever have an opportunity to see the
[2019]‘Wire Nosetiko. No. nie ‘one which was sent to the.
[2020]‘warren Commission, this I have seen. y
[2023]ue. Klein. Were you abaxe that the report would be put
[2024]“hh your file? | : | |
[2025]Mr. Nosenko. Must be. |
[2026]Mr. Klein. Were you aware that report would be shown ko,
[2028]H
[2030]Mr. Nosenko. I didn't! know that it would be created, th
[2032]Committee, bacause it was 1964.
[2034]Mi. Klein. wu didn't iknow that?
[2036]Mr. Nosenko . No. ‘Did! you know that this Committee —-
[2037]in 1964 -- will be existing) in 78, "77?
[2039]ode. eae
[2041]Mr. Klein. “And were you ‘telling them the truth when. you!
[2043]Te os
[2045]a evens nue oeeeein pone nn me »  enaeianen
[2047]told ‘them that the only” covertige of Oswald, and listing these © things: and |
[2048]| woe . wee |
[2050]& 7 ‘A By,
[2051]7 if n
[2052]& a
[2055]RD
[2059]xt
[2061]not telling them about the physical surveillance, was that thé
[2062]. _ : b, . . . .
[2063]truth you told them? 7
[2064]. . ! ;
[2065]Mr. Nosenko. Well, I told them that there was done the
[2067]Work against Oswald; it was: ordered, passive type of work ,
[2069]! : . .
[2070]it's called passive. Whenever it's ordered not to make an
[2072]oo ae .
[2073]approachment, not to make aj contact, not to make a recruit~
[2074]. ' ° ie ;
[2076]i; ment, this is passive.
[2078]Anything when enters besides whatever is done, contact,
[2080]approachments, recruitment,, attempt to recruit, it is
[2081]immediately called active.
[2082]| .
[2084]Mr. Klein. Looking at, that report, did you tell. them
[2085]about the physical surveillance which you told this Committee!
[2086]about yesterday? 3 |
[2088]Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I ao not see here, but I have no
[2090]i
[2092]e
[2094]1
[2096]t
[2098]|
[2100]i
[2104]|
[2106]i
[2108]|
[2114]j
[2118]i
[2120]|
[2124]i
[2126]i
[2128]| : |
[2129]doubts. I do not know. Maybe I didn't mention that this |
[2131]i
[2132]i
[2133]I,
[2134]i
[2135]H
[2136]H
[2137]i
[2139]t
[2140]i
[2141]|
[2142]i
[2144]. : i . :
[2145]date you said, maybe. I didn't mention but I was telling
[2146]them about surveillance. | Se _
[2148]; |
[2149]Mr. Klein. Didn't youl tell us that you always told the |
[2152]truth and told everything you knew when you spoke to the FBI
[2153]and the CIA? : : | . |
[2154].Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir’
[2156]Mr. Klein. If they would have asked you, "Was there ©
[2158]physical surveillance?" -- i"
[2159]. “|
[2161]Mr.‘Nosenko. Yes, I will answer yes, 1t was.
[2163]Mr. Klein. -- you would have answered yes?
[2165]i
[2166]ad
[2168]50955 Docld: 32277209 Page 30 ‘
[2171]1 Mr. Nosenko. Yes, six: | |
[2172]~~ 2) Mr. Klein. You also testified before this Committee that
[2173]3 | in accord with the orders from Moscow that there was technical
[2175]a 4 | surveillance, and you told las in detail about how they tapped
[2176]5 his phone and they would record it and make copies of it
[2178]‘| and gave it to a certain person. |
[2180]7 | Again, drawing your attention to page 29. of that same |
[2182]a Paragraph, does that say anything about the technical sur- :
[2184]| veillance that you told us about? |
[2186]io | Mr. Nosenko. No, sir. |
[2188]7 Mr. Klein. Did you forget? |
[2190]Ro Mr. Nosenko. But, if you ask, even an agent of FBI; |
[2192]| I doubt it, no. In KGB control of correspondence, control of
[2194]7 telephone, it's not big deal. It's giving order to control '
[2196]7 télephone can be given by Chief of Section, not speaking of |
[2198]1 Chief of Department, not speaking of Chief of Directorate, |
[2200]"| and not speaking to receive a warrant from the judge. contrqi
[2202]" of correspondence can be signed, permission to put control |
[2204]a over correspondence can be |done by the Deputy Chief of |
[2206]am Section even. ' |
[2208]aa Do: you understnd what I want to tell ‘you, it is absolutely
[2210]22}
[2212]7 considered, KGB, nothing important. |
[2213]“ vl Mr. Klein. Is it a big deal to check periodically at :
[2214]a someone's place of employment and talk to their neighbors? Is
[2216]that a big deal?
[2218]ES i
[2221]Smo
[2223]S
[2225]50955 Docld: 32277209 Page 31
[2230]te Ls
[2234]8
[2236]cas)
[2238]he
[2245]$0955 Docld: 32277209 Page 32
[2247]es
[2248]Sy Sos 5 ND.
[2251]RET
[2253]Mr. Nosenko. No. {
[2255]7
[2258]i
[2259]'
[2260]Mr. Klein. But you told them -about that, didn't you? |
[2261]i
[2262]|
[2264]Mr. Nosenko. I: ‘tried simply to describe them what
[2266]kind of, not to take active|, -- “what does it mean, passive tyPP
[2268]7 of coverage of the target?
[2270]Mr.. Klein. “If -they-wouldshave-asked you was there any
[2272]l
[2274]technical surveillance, then would you have told them?
[2276]Mr. Nosenko. I would have said they were .told, even
[2277]. | Lo
[2278]7 _word for word, in this doctment said not the. technical surveil
[2280]ance. They have a certain terminology. Let's say surveil-
[2281]a . | oT
[2282]lance, it's called to lead,: the «measurement.NAN, “and: to:
[2285]control. ote lephonecto.:head.thecmeasyrement M.
[2287]pe _-
[2288]i .
[2290]; | a
[2291]Mr. Klein. If they would have said, "Was there any
[2293]technical surveillance of Oswald?" would you have said
[2294]|
[2297]t
[2298]1
[2299]'
[2300]'
[2301]1
[2304]Mr. Nosenko. Sure.
[2306]Mr. Klein,. You also testified to this Committee that
[2308]the KGB would have had to have: known about ‘Marina Oswald,
[2310]you said, by the end- of the month ' they would have a batch
[2311]of papers? |
[2312]1
[2314]; a 4 ; a
[2315]Mr. Nosenko. You told me, if she had seen him, you
[2316]_ i ; ; . .
[2318]something metnioned, 15, 13.
[2320]i
[2322]i
[2324]i
[2326]t
[2328]t
[2330]|
[2332]|
[2334]. oe |
[2335]Mr. Klein. Because surveillance was on Oswald, they wee
[2336]: . . boo
[2338]have had to pick her up?
[2340]Mr. Nosenko. t cannot ‘tell you it was.in the moment whe
[2343]i we L i ‘ ; oi
[2344]7 os ~31 !
[2346]|
[2347]|
[2348]oo | :
[2349]he was seeing her or not. You said assume that he met her
[2350]|
[2352]16.and 13, and it became known to KGB through surveillance. I
[2353]+ . 7 i -
[2357]said by the end of month that at least something will have on
[2359]an
[2361]. ‘
[2362]: : e . “ad . . .
[2363]her, who is she, where she is working, where she studied, where
[2365]5 she work. : i : :
[2369]7
[2370]& | Mr. Klein. They would know that through the surveillance
[2373]on Oswald? ,
[2376]ON
[2378]Mr. Nosenko. “The fact will be known through surveillance; |
[2380]|
[2381]or
[2382]9 |. then. through other outfits of KGB they will find whatever
[2383]10 F poseibie on her. i ;
[2384]ak .
[2385]YW i Mr. Klein.. Were you ever asked the following question»
[2386]12 | and did you giye the following answer: |
[2387]_ iG | "Question: Why: wouldn't she --~ referring to Marina -- have
[2388]@ 7 been investigated when she first met Oswald? |
[2389]15 | "Answer: They did not now she was a friend of oswald |.
[2390]. ; oo
[2391]16 until they applied for marraige. There was no surveillance ,
[2392]W on Oswald to show that he knew her."
[2393]1a i Were you ever asked that question and did you give that |
[2394]el answer? : | |
[2396]a Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I do not remember my questions, and
[2398]Mr. Klein. I would ask that this document be marked for
[2400]hm
[2401]WY
[2403]n | answers.
[2404]Zz] .
[2406]|
[2408]i
[2410]identification, please, and, jshown to the witness.
[2412]The Chairman. “he cle he will identify for the record
[2414]i
[2417]Ps
[2419]document.
[2421]4.
[2423]the number appearing on the
[2425]i)
[2426]in
[2428]|
[2429]i
[2430]'
[2431]i
[2432]|
[2434]7
[2435]|
[2436]|
[2437]i
[2438]i
[2440]|
[2441]i
[2442]i
[2445]fhe Ee eg a
[2446]: ext Tee BES 5 a. .
[2447]1 | “° The Clerk. UFK-F-6. | |
[2448]! 7 . me . - H i
[2449]| Loe - ;
[2450]on 2 | (The document referred to was
[2452]3 | (marked as JFK Exhibit No. -F-6 for |
[2453]i i !
[2454]@ 4 | identification.) |
[2455]|. | re |
[2456]5) “Mr. Klein. Looking at fast document, have you ever seen |
[2457]i i
[2458]‘| it before? i |
[2459]of ' i
[2460]7 Mr. Nosenko. No, sir. | |
[2461]| Mr. Klein. You have never’ seen that before?
[2462]3 é
[2463]ok ; ; |
[2464]9 I Mr. Nosenko. I never have seen it before. |
[2465]le i
[2466]j : . . ‘ : . ce :
[2467]10 | Mr. Klein. And is that/a report that says on the cover, |
[2468]i . : { :
[2469]Al — po 7
[2470]| "Memorandum for the Record; Subject: Followup Report on the
[2471]2 | Oswald Case; Source: AEDONOR." Was AEDONOR your code name, -' |
[2472]Lo | ;
[2473]|
[2474]13 | at one time?
[2476]iii 14 Mr. Nosenko. I do) not; know. |
[2477]i
[2478]oo ! oe |
[2479]is | Mr. Klein. "Date of Interview: 3 July 1964." Does it | |
[2480]it, . ; | : j
[2481]| : . :
[2482]16 | say that on the cover? : :
[2483]a
[2484]{ i i |
[2485]a Mr. Nosenko. Yes, Sir. |
[2486]| J 4
[2487]} | . .
[2488]Pa Mr. Klein. And turning, to the very last page, page 18.--.
[2489]19 Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir. |
[2490]| of
[2491]20 | Mr. Klein. Does it say, "Thomas A. Ryan"? . {
[2493]- | Mr. Nosenko. Yes... i.
[2494]4 | . |
[2495]\ a ; i : 1
[2496]- 2 i Mr. Klein. "SR/CI/KGB"? . 7
[2497]; a | : . | ;
[2498]©. “4 Mr. Nosenko. Yes. * :
[2499]7 | , P| _ | |
[2500]36 ‘Mr. Klein. Did you ever hear of a man named Thomas A. !
[2501]Hl : |
[2502]2 { i
[2504]= A H !
[2505]i
[2506]|
[2507]‘ |
[2508]Loos |
[2509]y a
[2511]Sa 50955  Docld: 32277209
[2513]TOP. SECRET s
[2515]Mr. Klein. -- when you spoke about Oswald?
[2517]|
[2519]Mr: Nosenko. Yes. .
[2521]Com 23
[2523]'
[2526]. 1 “. (Mr. Nosenko. No, I do not know a man Thomas A. Ryan.
[2527]@ 2 Mr. Klein. Do you recall speaking to a man named
[2528]3 | Thomas Ryan? |
[2529]aa r Mr. Nosenko. No, sir. :
[2530]ag 5 “Mr. Klein. Would you turn. in this document to page 9.
[2531]On page 9, the last question’ and’ answer, would you read the
[2532]° question for us, and read the answer?
[2533]7 'Mr. Nosenko. ° "Why wouldn't she have been investigated
[2534]8 ‘when she. first met Oswald?"
[2535]9 . "They didn't know she was a friend of Oswald until they
[2536]10 || applied for marriage. There! was no surveillance on Oswald
[2537]117 || to show that he knew her." |
[2538]0 Mr. Klein. Were you ever asked that question and did you
[2539]- ever -- : |
[2540]= Mr. Nosenko. I do not wemember, sir. But if it is,
[2541]a it must be asked and I this answered.
[2542]1s Mr. Klein. Was that the truth?
[2543]16 | Mr. Nosenko. As far as| I remember, those conditions in
[2544]V7 which I was asked, better ask where I was in this period of
[2545]- 18 | time, what conditions I was kept, and what type of interrogatipns
[2546]19 | were going on. - :
[2547]0 Mr. Klein. Did you tell us yesterday that you always
[2548]n told the truth? so
[2549]3 Mr. Nosenko. Yes..
[2551]Mr. Klein. - Was this question relating to Oswald?
[2553]e *
[2555]Mr. Nosenko. I was answering what I could.
[2557]TOP. SECRET
[2559]HW 50955 Docld:32977209 (Page 35
[2561]ye Beak fis eh: :
[2562]BYALA 4
[2564]Mr. Klein. Is that the; truth, that they didn't --
[2566]Mr. Nosenko. It's how it is put, how it‘is put. You see,
[2568]'
[2571]again, why wouldn't she have! been investigated. Here must be
[2573]as
[2575]ba
[2577]question was in this form. The investigation, not. the checkup
[2579]ba
[2581]of her, but, let's say, invitation for conversation, something
[2583]yes this kind, it's some kind of here misunderstanding on both
[2584]? | parts, ‘that would bé. mine. and interrogator.
[2585]8 Ib. Mr. Klein, It is an inaccurate transcript? |
[2586]9 - coe. Nosenko: I consider many, many things are
[2588]OO ot
[2589]10 inaccurate.
[2590]7 Mr. Klein. ‘Is that trahscribea accurately?
[2591]12 Mr. Nosenko. I do.not know, sir.
[2593].. 13 Mr. Klein. That answer, do you think it is transcribed
[2594]iH i
[2595]@ ig i accurately, that that's your! answer?
[2596]15 Mr. Nosenko. -Well, I ean only explain only one thing.
[2599]16 | Let's say there was KGB found out that he had an acquaintance,
[2602]i
[2604]i
[2605]i
[2606]|
[2608]} |
[2609]i7 Marina Prusakova, They were not married. They didn't know --
[2610]i F
[2613]1
[2614]4
[2616]investigation? Checkup in archives of KGB of Byelorussia, and
[2617]On the basis. whatever kind of material on her will be found.
[2619]i
[2620]Let's say, if ‘sher was ever on trial by militia, under arrest.
[2622]Ir didn't apply for marriage. What kind of first will be
[2623]t
[2624]4
[2626]If militia had any material, they can expand further. They
[2630]: 2 can also send checkup in the place of her =~ one, it's in one
[2631]i
[2633]|
[2635]order, to give us the picture of the character of the target,
[2637]3
[2638]an
[2639]sa.
[2641]check on him in place of his work and check in place of his living,
[2643]i
[2645]1
[2646]1
[2648]2
[2650]j
[2651]cine
[2652]i
[2654]t
[2656]“HW 50955 Docld:32277209 Page. -36-
[2659]ay a ¢
[2660]i bs q _ 35 |
[2661]in one order. | : a .
[2662]~ 2 | But more, farther investigation, the ‘true investigation --|
[2663]7 this is ‘called checkup -- wiht be studied and they will start
[2664]& 4 | when they see something, let's say, suspicious in behavior of | ;
[2665]° 5 Oswald and this his connection. .
[2666]6 “In case of Marina, when they found out that they are going
[2667]to marry; sure,, they will bel more, farther investigation,
[2669]i
[2671]area
[2673]From -thispoint of view I was answering this question.
[2675]i
[2677]i
[2679]|
[2680]can
[2682]j Cae a nt ‘ . . ‘ , ,
[2684]3. thorough invetigation;  but.’before it will only be checkup.
[2686]a . .
[2688]j
[2690]i
[2692]i
[2694]i
[2696]. -y
[2697]40 Mr. Klein. Let me make it simple.
[2698]YW i Me . Noseniko. 7 Right.
[2699]| Mr. Klein. If the question was asked exactly as it appears)
[2700]} 1
[2701]13 here, "Why wouldn't she nave been investigated when she first |.
[2703]ee ig | Met Oswald?" would this be your answer? Is that a correct |
[2704]: . i
[2705]13 answer as it appears here? | |
[2706]‘| Mr. Nosenko. Well, it jappears here, but _I do not-retiéiiber.
[2707]wi Sure, I answered and tHis was question, but, gentlemen -~_
[2709]2 | Mr. Klein. Was this true? This says "There was no
[2711]surveillance on Oswald to. show that he knew her" -- is that
[2713]right or wrong?
[2714]|
[2716]Mr. Nosenko. This is what I answered, yes. It is right.
[2718]It is written here. |
[2720]Mr. Klein. You remember answering that?
[2722]Mr. Nosenko. No.
[2724]1
[2726]Mr. Klein. How do you ‘know you answered that?
[2728]Ed
[2730]i
[2731]t
[2733]i
[2735]t
[2737]i
[2739]1
[2741]i
[2742]| |
[2743]i
[2745]i
[2747]i
[2749]j
[2753]1
[2755]|
[2756]|
[2757]b.
[2758]h
[2761]i
[2763]i
[2765]: ay “8
[2766]— ci y a
[2767]i go Ty af
[2768]R a
[2769]g 4 ie
[2771]WW 50955 DocId: 32277209 Page. 87,
[2774]: oF a
[2775]tod “oleae otra
[2776]- Nosenko. You are giving me official document... /
[2777]~ 2 o MY. Klein. “You have no recollection of answering this? |
[2778]3 | ME.-Nosenko’. Sir, I do! ‘not have any recollection of |
[2779]®@ 4 interrogations, °. |
[2780]. ‘ { 7 : . o wo! 7
[2781]. 5 | | Mr. Klein. ‘If you answered that, were -you telling the |
[2782]6 truth?
[2783]7 Mr. Nosenko. I don't know. I answered. Must be. This
[2788]. 84> is how I answered question.
[2790]H
[2791]i
[2794]No
[2796]Mr. Klein. You testified to this Committee that the KGB
[2798]decided to have Lee Harvey Oswald examined by two psychiatrists
[2800]You told us about how it was decided, who decided it, where
[2802]Y
[2804]Sa ae
[2806]. if ; ; -
[2807]it was decided. Then they found Lee Harvey Oswald to be mental
[2809]Mr. Nosenko. Right.
[2811]i
[2812]i
[2813]i
[2814]|
[2816]i
[2817]|
[2821]|
[2822]13 | unstable?
[2823]i
[2824]3
[2825]|
[2828]|
[2829]Ft /.
[2830]15 | Mr. Klein. Have you ever been asked the following : |
[2831]16 | questions /and given the following answers: |
[2832]i ; | . een . {
[2833]W7 "Question: Did the KGB: make a-psychological assessment 7
[2834]i
[2835]1a | of Oswald? ;
[2836]| | .
[2837]‘. a L
[2838]‘| "Answer: No, nothing, but at the hospital it was also said
[2839]20 | he was not quite normal. The hospital didn't write that he was!
[2840]i i |
[2841]a | madi, just that he is not normal.
[2842]a | ; . . | . . '
[2843]5 39 "Question: Did the hospital authorities conduct. any 2
[2844]a ; Loe i . ; of
[2845]eo 13 psychological testing? | i
[2846]u | "Answer: I.don't think'so. There was no report like this."
[2847]i . a oo |
[2848]oy ask Mr. Nosenko. No, I told that there was opinion of . | |
[2849]it |.
[2850]| '
[2851]| f
[2853]50955 DBocld: 32277209
[2855]4
[2856]ho
[2858]no 37
[2860]wont
[2862]psychiatrists that hewas mentally unstable.
[2864]Mr. Klein. Is what I read to you correct?
[2868]Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I do not know whether it is correct or
[2870]i
[2874]wrong. Ijam answering.you what I know.
[2875]: |
[2876]Mr. Klein. Did you ever make a statement like that?
[2878]Mr. Nosenko. I do not remember statements for five years,
[2880]interrogation.
[2881]Mr. Klein. I would direct your attention to the Ryan
[2883]Report.
[2884]Mr. Nosenko. Yes.
[2885]Mr. Klein. Page 2
[2886]Mr. Nosenko. Yes.
[2887]Mr. Klein. Would you read for us the first and second
[2888]_
[2890]questions| and answers, please.
[2892]Mr. Nosenko. "Did the KGB make psychological assessment
[2894]té | of Oswald?"
[2896]"No, nothing. But at the hospital it’ was also said he
[2898]"What was the Soviets’ opinion of Oswald's personality,
[2900]iv]
[2901]12 : was not quite normal... The hospital didn't write that he was
[2903]1g mad:,. just that he was not normal, mentally unstable."
[2904]20 | Mr. Klein. Please keep’ reading.
[2905]3] Mr. Nosenko. "Did the hospital authorities conduct any
[2906]23 psychological testing?"
[2907]eh ak "I don't think so. where was no report like this.
[2908]r i . H
[2909]|
[2911]= ? what kind/of man did they think he was?"
[2913]A Py] Bt ae co i
[2914]SOOT. 7 a
[2916]ag a
[2920]i Had & CLUE |
[2923]; "KGB throught he was of ‘no interest for the country or
[2927]the country."
[2931]|
[2933]|
[2935]: |
[2937]for the KGB, that he is not normal, that he should leave |
[2939]no)
[2941], . I: : .
[2942]Mr. Klein: Did-you say anything in there about two
[2943]| .
[2944]“psychiatrists examining Oswald and about reading their reports
[2946]de
[2950]-iwhich said-hé was mentally‘ anstable?. Did you say anything
[2952]|
[2953]i
[2954]Joos that there?
[2956]7 .°-Nosenko. Sir, I do pot remember what I said to them; |
[2957]¢ | but I would Like you. to find out the conditions in which interr-|
[2958]10 gations were done, how it was’ done, by what procedures, when
[2959]a [evo interrogators, ate seated. | I never knew any names -- they
[2960]1 [ever announced me names. =- Ghe-playing.part of bad guy and othet
[2961]83 good guy, and it starting slapping then, not physically but rT
[2963]= , td |mean, psychologically and in conversation, turning question up-
[2964]vis ide down, powever they. would! Like, then this leave, another one
[2965]ie na start jin softer way. .
[2966]| Mr. Klein. When did this -~
[2967]a Mr. Nosenko. And I would not trust any of their documents
[2968]4g }in those pelriods of time. Up. to 1967 when we started from the
[2970]20 peginning, ito work, Mr. Bruce/Solie. That is the one thing.
[2971]“econ. my Knowledge of language was-very poor in '64. I didn’t
[2973]nderstand many questions, and none of them, excluding. Mr.
[2975]i
[2979]@. “3 peryabin, knew Russian language and Mr. Deryabin was ‘asking
[2980]| ;
[2982]q4 me only questions concerhing my biography “and this type of ques-
[2983]4 j ; ; ; oo 4 . ;
[2984]2g ition, but nonoperative —
[2986]; 50955 Docld: | 32277209
[2988]Page #0
[2991]1U0 UE d WEE. ee
[2993]= | 39
[2994]7 Mr. “Kilein. Do you have jany recollection of being asked
[2995].
[2996]~ 2 | these questions and giving the answers that you just read to us?
[2997]3 | Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I told you, and I will tell, I do not
[2998]2 3 remember their questions, and Tr do not remember my answers; but
[2999]. 7 I tried tol be truthful with them. Then was period of time when.
[3000]| eft have seen that they were simply was laughing at me; I. rejected
[3001]7 | to answer Luestions, and whenever -they were asking,.I would
[3002]a answer, "I do not remember, 1 do not know; I do not remember." |
[3003]yf ite Rhein: “these answers, do they say "y do not know, |
[3004]ita do not ; remember" ‘ox do these ‘give responsive answers? |
[3005]np Mr. “Nosenko.: sir, I do |not trust this document ‘prepared
[3006]Ia | by | people in those years.. at. |
[3007]13 | Mr. Klein. [Is it your testimony that these might not .bé |
[3008]gy . id | accurate guestions and answers? . 7
[3009]i : i
[3010]1s | Mr. Nosenko. My opinion -- I cannot tell you exactly, I :
[3011]16 say might be. | : | 7
[3012]ary Mr. Klein. You testified --
[3013]a Mr. Nosenko. One more thing: If we are going into this,
[3014]9 a number of interrogations;: 1 was under drugs, and on me was |
[3016]20 pee a- number of drugs, and 1 know that, and hallucinations
[3017]31 and talking during night and ‘sodium and everything, even many |
[3019]22 others, and a number of things were absolutely incoherent.
[3021]r
[3022]t
[3023]i
[3025]Mr. Klein. This hostile interrogation. that you have been
[3027][referring to, when did it begin:
[3029]2
[3031]=,
[3033]Mr. Nosenko. Arrested ime 4th of “april, 1964, started .
[3035]2 teeta
[3040]4 ; , . “40
[3042]| interrogate me in two days. They interrupted ~~ I don't know =|
[3043]7 2 I interrogate a month, two, made break; then again, then again
[3044]3 | period of no interrogation; then again interrogations, up to |
[3045]@ 3 | 24 hours, hot giving we possibility to sleep.
[3046]So Mr. Klein. And: ‘this i as all after April 4, 1964?
[3048]6 | Mr. Nésenko. ot Yes; ‘sir.
[3050]“That “is ‘why “Iwill -not “take as a document anything what
[3052]8 |concerns interrogations in hostile, absolutely hostile,
[3054]a
[3056]‘| situation. . on,
[3057]i
[3058]i
[3060]19 : ‘Mr. Klein. You testified in detail yesterday about the
[3062]cable which you ‘saw which was sent from Mexico City to the First}
[3065]bY
[3067](Chief Directorate in Moscow, and you testified that you “actually
[3069]t
[3071]i
[3073]read that cable and that it told that Oswald was in Mexico. City |
[3076]tar
[3078]~ i G a ’ . % : 0
[3079]‘4 Jand he wanted permission for visa to come to the Soviet Union.
[3081]|
[3082]Do you remember reading that cable -and describing it for
[3083]. . Hy
[3085]ae)
[3087]1g jus in detail, how long it was?
[3089]7 Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.
[3091]ié ) Mr. Klein. Did you ever say to anyone that after Oswald
[3093]19 lwentcto Minsk, the next time you heard of him was in connection
[3094]vo leien Oswald's application to’ the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City:
[3096]4 ;
[3097]a4 fox a Soviet reentry visa, and you did not know how Mexico City
[3098]|
[3100]advised Moscow of.the subject's application; your knowledge
[3102](a . 3 |resulted from an oral inquiry of your department ‘by M.I. Turalin,;
[3103]aa 4
[3104]i Did you ever say that, that you did not know how Mexico
[3106]2 -
[3108]City advised Moscow of Oswald's application?
[3110]| ;
[3111]| TOP
[3113]“WW 50955 DocId: 32277209 Page
[3116]ad
[3118]Ftd oe
[3120]GORWAL E
[3121]. / Al
[3123]| |
[3124]| |
[3125]| Mr. Nosenko. I do not remember. I am telling you what |
[3128]ar
[3130]eat
[3131]eS
[3132]Saray
[3134]I have seen, cable, what was told through Lieutenant i-Colonel
[3136]AleKseev:toltell to Tural'in the opinion of Second Chief Directorate
[3138]Seventh Department.
[3140]in.
[3142]Mr. Klein. I draw your attention to page 30 of the FBI
[3144]i
[3145]| report in front of you.
[3147]4
[3148]"| Mr. Nosenko: I do not have it.
[3149]am (Pause)
[3150], |
[3151]94 Yes, sir.
[3152]. 1
[3153]ve Mr. Klein. On the top of page 30, read for us the under- |
[3154]of i
[3155]t i
[3156]if | lined section on the top, beginning "The next time” --
[3157]2 4 Mr. Nosenko. "The next time Nosenko heard of Oswald was
[3158]i
[3159]13 | in connection with Oswald's application to Soviet Embassy in
[3160]. I
[3161]© id Mexico City for a Soviet reentry visa. Nosenko did not know how
[3162]i |
[3163]as] Mexico City advised Moscow of subject's application. His
[3164]j |
[3165](
[3166]i
[3167]i
[3168]i
[3169]t
[3171]Nosenko's department had no interest in Oswala and they
[3173]16 knowledge resulted from an oral inquiry of Nosenko's department
[3175]17 4 by Turalin, Service No. 2,.Counterintelligence in Foreign
[3176]i
[3177]{ .
[3178]18 | Countries, First Chief Directorate. Nosenko recalled that Turalin
[3179]| } |
[3180]ig | had orally, contacted Vladimir Alexseev, Chief of Sixth Section
[3181]20 ot Nosenko's Tourist Department, with respect to Oswald.
[3182]|
[3183]|
[3184]1
[3187]t
[3188]H
[3190]i
[3192]zt! pecommended . that Oswald's request for reentry visa be denied,
[3194]| Nosenko couldn't recall when Oswald visited Mexico City in
[3195]|
[3199]! connection with visa application."
[3202]j
[3203]t
[3205]me fi Mr. Klein. Did you ever say this to an FBI agent?
[3207]“HW 50955 Bocld: 32277209" ‘Page
[3214]ste
[3218]oO
[3220]a)
[3222]10
[3224]Mr.
[3226]Mr.
[3228]say that?
[3230]Mr.
[3232]Mr.
[3234]Mr.
[3236]Mr.
[3237]would you
[3239]| date of
[3241]Mr.
[3243]Mr. Nosenko. This is what I answered them, how I remembered.
[3245]Mr.
[3248]H
[3249]i
[3250]i
[3251]i
[3256]SUTE |.
[3258]Nosenko. Must be I said it,. it's here in document.
[3260]42
[3262]Klein. It says in here that Nosenko did not know how
[3264]| Mexico City advised Moscow of subject's application. Did you
[3266]Nosenko. Must be; I said this in this way.
[3268]Klein. And did you tell us that not only did you know
[3270]advised them by cable but that you read the cable?
[3272]Nosenko. This is what I recollection.
[3274]Kiein. Did you tell them the truth?
[3275]Nosenko. I was trying to tell what I remembered. |
[3276]Klein.: and this FBI report which you just read from,
[3277]look back on the first page and would you tell us the
[3280]Nosenko. Fifth of March, 1964.
[3282]Klein. March 5, 1964. Is that before April 4,
[3284]| Mr. Nosenko. Yes,sir.
[3285]i Mr. Klein. That was before any hostile interrogations
[3286]| seaan, is that correct?
[3287]Mr. Nosenko. Yes.
[3288]Mr. Klein. And at that time you said that you did not know
[3289]-anything about the cable, is that right?
[3291]|
[3293]Klein,
[3295]I have a question. Do you understand from what |
[3297]i
[3300]|
[3301]i
[3303]t
[3304]i
[3306]i
[3307]i
[3308]i
[3309]i
[3311]- TOP. SECRET - a ae
[3314]i | you understand that it is necessary time, time to settle psy-
[3316]@ q | chologically, he doesn't know how he will be living, what he w 11
[3317]be doing, and at the same time a person feels attitude on the
[3319]part of those who helped him to come CIA? I felt something
[3321]a 4
[3322]‘Eh going on.
[3324]5
[3325]Mr. Klein. -You testified to us today that you didn't
[3326]6 know how wrote the summary of Oswald's file in the First Depart-
[3327], ;
[3329]ment. because you never had an opportunity to read it. Did you
[3330]8 | ever tell anyone that Fedroseve-and Matveev, Fre~d-r-o-s-e-v-e
[3331]9 | and M-a-t-v-e-e-v of the First Department, Second Chief
[3333]19 | Directorate, took the file and wrote a second "spravka", which
[3334]you told us was a summary?
[3336]Mr. Nosenko. Summary.
[3338]| ‘Mr. Klein. Did you ever tell anybody that?
[3339]. ‘8 | . Mr. Nosenko. Must be I told, it is again: right, because
[3340]a you see, not Fedroseve -- Fedroseve was Chief of First Depart-
[3341]138i ment, American Department, and I will repeat what I told you
[3342]16 | yesterday. Matveev has come to take file, but surely -Fedrosev
[3343]» who is Chief of American Department, he had given call to Chie
[3344]8 of Seventh Department. He was involved in this; that is why I
[3345]19 || mentioned him. He was Chief of First American Department.
[3346]. His deputy, Colonel Matveev, has come, and not alone; with him
[3347]nl was a couple of officers, has come and told that Gribanov
[3348]- | ordered and Fedroseve giving call to Department, we must take
[3349]. 2 it, and took. Who of them wrote, I do not know, -no .doubts ‘that Fedroseve. |
[3350]» | and Matveev. were" participated. in the preparation of documents.
[3351]24
[3353]| ~~ -TOP.SECRET
[3355]HW 50555 Docld:32277209 Page 45
[3357]age
[3359]They are responsible for First American Department.
[3361]Mr. Klein. So. you have an idea of who would have written,
[3363]tet
[3365]Mr. Nosenko. American Department, no doubts that this
[3367]de
[3369]cary
[3371]two will, ‘be participating or correcting. a a
[3373]|
[3374]|
[3375]i that. correct?
[3376]|
[3377]|
[3378]|
[3379]|
[3381]é | Mr. klein. But you didn't read that summary, is that righ?
[3382]al Mr. Nosenko..\ I do: not, remember reading the summary. |
[3383]ah Mr. Kleine Did you read it? Do you have any recollection |
[3384]¢ lof réading it? | |
[3385]i
[3386]a Mr. Nosenko.’ No, I haven't seen summary. |
[3387]i ;
[3388]ny Mr. Klein.» Are you positive that you didn't see that
[3389]rr) — - |
[3390]3 | Mr. Nosenko. I have seen summaries in the file of Oswald.
[3391]@ i Mr. Klein. Are you positive you didn't see. the summary |
[3392]., lweitten by the First Department after they took the file away? |
[3393]6 | Mr. Nosenko. I do not remember seeing. As I told you, | |
[3394]1
[3395]= haven't seen it. _
[3396]18 - Mr. Klein. You testified that Oswald was considered normal)
[3397]49 price to the time he cut his wrist, and even told us that you |
[3398]20 iwere surprised, you had no indication he would do something /
[3399]zy [like that. ; |
[3400]22 | Were you ever asked the following question, and did you: 7
[3401]|
[3402]i
[3404]igive the following answer:
[3407]“In what way was the Oswald case handled differently from
[3410]45
[3412]"Answer: The main difference is that he was not to be
[3414]a
[3416]Mr. Nosenko. This is what cases I know, who were staying.
[3420]_ 2 | aliowed to stay. He was considered to be not normal."
[3421]Mr. Klein. Did you ever say that he was considered not
[3425]normal, referring to the period before he tried to commit suicide?
[3427]|
[3428]|
[3430]|
[3431]é | Mr. Nosenko. I do not remember; but if I said it, it's i
[3432]‘oj not right becuase we didn't know. that he was normal or not
[3433]3
[3434]S [normal. Up until the moment of he cut his wrist we started to |
[3435]2 | |
[3436]? | suspect.
[3437]i
[3438]19 | Mr. Klein. Did you ever say that he was considered not '
[3440]H i
[3441]1) | normal? i
[3442]| |
[3443]Ry Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I do. not remember. |
[3444]|
[3445]‘ : . . i
[3446]7 Mr. Klein. Well, if you would have said it, would it have |
[3448]© |
[3449]i¢ | been correct?
[3450]i
[3451]is | Mr. Nosenko. No, it would not be correct, because he cannot
[3452]ET
[3453]a considered abnormal. We didn't know anything up till he
[3454]7. cut the wrist.
[3455]12 | Mr. Klein. You testified to this Committee that you were
[3456]19 | present at a meeting with the Chief of the Seventh Department
[3458]Chief of your section, Major Rastrusin, at that meeting, it was
[3460]1
[3462]i
[3464]i
[3466]i
[3468]i
[3470]|
[3474]|
[3476]|
[3478]i
[3480]H
[3482]i
[3484]4
[3486]You told us where the meeting took place, told us who
[3487]]
[3489]was there. |
[3491]|
[3492]— .
[3493]71 | Secadec that Oswald should not be given permission to defect..
[3494]|
[3495]Mr. Nosenko. Right.
[3497]|
[3501]Mr. Klein. You told us that Krupnov was not even in the
[3503]e& F weal
[3506]Lp : eg
[3507]Loft |B
[3509]50955 Docld: 32277209 Page 47
[3511]. \
[3512]1¢ i was wrong, not right, because Krupnov started participation only
[3514]1
[3515]46 7
[3516]1 | Seventh Department at that time? | |
[3517]- at Mr. Nosenko. Krupnov appeared a little later. |
[3518]3 | Mr. Klein. bid you ever tell anyone that on the basis of |
[3520]e 4 | your evaluation of Oswald, you instructed Krupnov to advise Oswald
[3522]§ | through Intourist interpreter that Oswald would not be permitted
[3523]6 to remain in the U.S.S.R. permanently and that he would have
[3524]"he depart at the expiration of his visa? mo,
[3525]| Did you ever tell anybody that? : 7
[3526]g Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I do not remember. If I said it, it
[3528]| sntormation, concluded that Oswald was of no interest to the >
[3529]i
[3531]KGB and both agreed that Oswald appeared somewhat abnormal."
[3533]|
[3534]a i in this case when Oswald was allowed to stay. In the moment
[3535]i
[3536]ia when Oswald arrived in Soviet Union, when he went in hospital,
[3537]13 | krupnov was still not in Seventh: Department. He very soon Oo |
[3538]los . - . :
[3539]a mn | appeared later. Then it was wrong. If I stated. it, it was |
[3540]i . oo a |
[3541]ig | wrong. |
[3542]; '
[3543]io Mr. Klein... Directing your attention to the FBI report in|
[3544]ip | front of you, I would like to draw your attention to page 28. |
[3545]Boos H
[3546]at Mr. Nosenko. Right. i;
[3547]is | -Mr. Klein. Beginning with the underlihed section beginning
[3548]20 | with the first "On the basis" in the second paragraph, would
[3549]an you read this? | |.
[3550]39 i‘ Mr. Nosenko. "Nosenko and Krupnov on the basis of this” |
[3551]|
[3554]Mr. Klein. Not that, the second paragraph, "On the basis
[3556]re)
[3557]in
[3559]i]
[3560]t
[3562]|
[3563]j
[3565]a oy fa a ee
[3566]: Top Se@aer
[3567]Rte 2 a 80 te i
[3569]50955 Docld:32277209 Page 48
[3572]nO
[3576]si
[3578]4
[3580]raion oe
[3582]i Bs
[3584]hi
[3588]Mr. Nosenko. "On the basis of Nosenko's evaluation of
[3590]Oswald, he instructed Krupnov to advise Oswald through the.
[3592]Intourist interpreter Oswald would not be permitted to remain inl
[3594]the U.S.S.R. permanently and that he would have to depart at
[3595]the expiration of his visa, and thereafter seek reentry as a
[3596]permanent resident through routine channels at the Soviet
[3597]Embassy in the United States."
[3599]Mr. Klein. Did you ever say that?
[3601]Mr. Nosénko.. I do not remember saying this. It can be
[3603]that simply misunderstanding, and, you see, this is not
[3605]Krupnov didn! t- participate it in the beginning.
[3607]Mr. Klein. Also “it says -—
[3609]Mr." Nosenko. tt was participation of Rastrusin.
[3611]Mr. Klein. Also is it correct when it says in there that
[3612]you made the decision and --
[3614]Mr. Nosenko. No, I couldn't make. decision, being Deputy
[3615]Chief of Section.
[3617]Mr. Klein. Does it say anything there --
[3619]Mr. Nosenko. I could say my opinion, yes.
[3621]Mr. Klein. Does it say anything there about a meeting
[3623]to determine what to do, or does it say that on basis of your
[3625]evaluation, you told Krupnov to do it?
[3627]Mr. Nosenko.. It's not right. I said only that Krupnov
[3629]|
[3630]|
[3631]|
[3632]|
[3633]|
[3635]ate
[3637]i
[3639]transcription from the tape. It is, Iwill say a summary, and
[3641]I do not remember. But,?if I said this, it -isinot right because’
[3644]/ | 4s 48
[3645]{ . . . . . :
[3646]' | appeared later. . This period, what we are discussing here, was
[3647]. '
[3648]ae ~ i ; : 4 . . . : i
[3649]* | Rastrusin involved, decision cannot be done on my own, being |
[3650]i : , oO
[3651]i on, ;
[3652]* Deputy Chief of Section; decision cannot be done even being \
[3653]|
[3654]au ' Deputy Chief of Section, Chief of Section, at least it
[3657]| ;
[3658]| must be on the level of Chief of Department.
[3660]7 mr, Klein. So it is incorrect. is that what you are saying?
[3661]7h - Mr! NoSenko.”" tt is incorrect, and. Krupnov -- I do not. ;
[3662]“ : i
[3663]2 | remember.
[3664]a | | Mr. Klein, ‘You told wis; when I questioned you about the
[3665]\ . . . , i
[3666]"| face! inet you didn't tell ‘the FBI that there was physical, ©
[3668]11 | surveillance, the last question I asked you, if they would have |
[3669]_ if he was physically surveilled, would you nave told |
[3671]7 3 | them, and you said yes? . _ to |
[3672]@ —_ 14 Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sure. I will say.. |
[3673]is | | Mr. Klein. Were you ever asked the following question |
[3674]16 | and aia you, give the following answer: . ; ee oe
[3675]‘7 a "was he physically surveilied" and that is referring £0. |
[3676]43 | Minsk, and you answered "No, there was none"?
[3677]9 Mr. Nosenko. It was mot right, because. it was order given!
[3678]«| sn under periodical surveillance. _ _ |
[3679]3 ‘7 "Mr, Klein. I draw your attention to page 9 of the CIA. :
[3680]- 2) document in front of you, Memorandum for the Record. :
[3681]@. 73. Mr. Nosenko. 1 do not have it. |
[3682]t He an . a !
[3683]xi | Mr. Klein. The Ryan Report. I: draw,your attention to page
[3684]: 28 9. _ |
[3688]“aw 50955 Docld:322
[3690]id
[3692]Q as iH
[3694]Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.
[3696]49 .
[3698]nD
[3700]Mr. Klein. Would you read ithe first question and the first
[3708]Mr. Nosenko. "Was he physically surveilled?"
[3710]ian
[3712]"No, there was none.
[3714]ch
[3716]Mr. Klein. Did you ever give that answer to that question?
[3718]Mr. Nosenko. I do not remember; it's not right, the
[3720]ob
[3722]answer. !
[3724]7 oO
[3726]gy Mr. Klein. I would ask that this tape, which is marked
[3728]10 4 3 July '64, Reel No. 66, be deemed marked for identification. |
[3729]al The Chairman. Indicate for the record the marking. |
[3730]" The Clerk. JFK-F-7. |
[3731]ol (The item referred to was marked
[3732]- ;
[3733]@ id | as JFK Exhibit No. F-7 for
[3734]| identification.) |
[3735]ve | The Chairman. We will recess for about five minutes. :
[3736]>| (A brief recess was taken.) :
[3737]a | The Chairman. The Committee is back in session.
[3738]ve | During the recess the witness made a request of the |
[3739]x Chair that he be permitted to make a brief statement prior to
[3741]counsel for the Committee resuming interrogation.
[3743]The Chair is going to grant that request and recognize
[3746]ho -
[3748]the witness at this time for such statement as he would like
[3750]to make.
[3752]es
[3753]rn
[3755],
[3758]Mr. Nosenko. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. ~
[3760]rs)
[3761]Di
[3763]WW o50955 Docld:32277209 Page
[3765]oe
[3767]Fs
[3769]pres
[3770]5 re:
[3772]WALL
[3776]ea
[3778]ON
[3782]Ba
[3783]Be
[3785]pal
[3787]50
[3789]Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlenien, I arrived in the
[3791]United States in 1964, 12th of February. I felt something was
[3795]|
[3797]'
[3799]|
[3801]i
[3803]'
[3805]i
[3807]a
[3808]going wrong because the attitude on the part of the officers |
[3810]from .CIA who was dealing witH me, I felt was going wrong, by
[3811]a number of remarks, their behavior. Besides, Iwas ina |
[3812]|
[3814]psychological’ process. It's a very big thing, when you are com-
[3816]ing-to live in a new country. ‘I left the country where I was
[3818]co
[3820]born, never mind, my defection was strictly on ideological
[3822]basis, but still psychologically is very big thing and very
[3824]serious thing. :
[3825]A very short period of time, April 4, I was invited on check-
[3826]up for the doctor, and this checkup turned to be arrest. |
[3828]Arrested was in very rude form, nobody beat my physically , |
[3830]no, but in rude. form, trying to put dignity of the person, of
[3832]human being, down, kept in very hard’ conditions. 1 was
[3834]smoking from 14 years old, never quitted. Iwas rejected to
[3837]oO
[3839]|
[3840]| .
[3841]en I didn't see books. I didn't read anything. I was
[3843]sitting in four walls, metal bed in the center of the room and
[3845]I was hungry, and this was the most difficult for me becaus;
[3847]4
[3848]i
[3849]{ .
[3850]|
[3851]I
[3852]i
[3853]i
[3854]t
[3855]i
[3856]i
[3857]i
[3859]i
[3860]|
[3861]|
[3862]|
[3863]|
[3865]~ is all.
[3866]| Row I tried not to think about food. I was thinking about food
[3867]|
[3869]because all the time I want to eat. I was receiving very small
[3871]| amount, and very poor food. I was sitting some kind of attic;
[3872]bit was hot, no air conditioning, cannot breathe; windows -- no
[3873]| ,
[3875]windows, closed over. I was permitted to shave once a’week,
[3878]51 “|
[3880]to take showers once a week.
[3882]From me were taken toothpaste, toothbrush. The conditions
[3884]transferred. in another*place, ‘which is now I. know where it
[3886]an
[3888]i
[3889]|
[3890]i
[3891]i
[3892]i
[3893]were really inhuman, conditions in this place; and later |.
[3895]was, the second place, Camp Perry, where certain ‘house and ‘the
[3897]oh
[3899]Gd
[3901]same very, very Spartan:conditions; three and a half years.
[3903]Besides that,. on me were used different types of drugs and
[3905]went
[3907]oo”
[3909]sleeping drugs, hallucination drugs, and whatever I ‘do not know ;
[3911]and don't want to know.
[3913]What I want to tell you, the arrest was done illegally,
[3915]‘without due process of law, withdut -- in violation of
[3917]Constitution, which was found by Rockefeller Commission. It.
[3919]wasn't mentioned my name, but simply nameless defector, who,
[3921]‘was over three years cin extremely Spartan conditions.
[3923]as . Interrogations were ‘done ‘sometimes 24 hours, not giving me
[3924]i]
[3925]|
[3927]Hoe: _ Coy . . as .
[3928]| an hour to ‘Sleepi . Intekrogations were in very hostile manner.
[3930]oN
[3932]Simply, what I would say were rejected. How long I will be, wh
[3933]pit is without due process, no warrants; "You will-be eternally,
[3934]25 years." How long wwe-would’want.: you to keep. . That is why
[3936]I consider all interrogations, all materials, which concerns
[3938]this period of time are illegal, and I am not recognizing them
[3940]wy and don't want to see them. And I am asking you not to ask
[3942]! questions based on this interrogations, including trying to
[3946]2
[3948]“play the tape during this interrogations. For me it's difficult
[3950]2
[3953]étratimnitback. I passed through hell. I started new ; Life ‘in
[3955]u
[3956]i
[3957]i
[3958]4
[3959]t
[3961]|
[3962]i
[3963]y
[3964]H
[3965]i
[3966]i
[3967]4
[3969]“SHW 50955 Docld: 32277209
[3971]Page 453
[3974]HOF GhUARE |
[3975]| . a - . 52
[3977].
[3978]| 6? only because I was true defector. I never raised this
[3980]os)
[3982]| question with correspondents. I never. werit in Press, because
[3984]Lae)
[3986]I am loyal to the country which accepted me, and I didn' t wanted
[3987]“i to. hurt the country.
[3989]I didn't hurt,. even to hurt, the intelligence, the CIA.
[3991]de
[3993]I.
[3994]i
[3995]|
[3996]7
[3997]J
[3998]|
[4000]| . .
[4001]6% I didn't consider the whole CIA was responslbe. Were responsible
[4003]several people, for this. Thank God they are not working there
[4005]or
[4007]anymore. They are out. If I will go in press, if I would |
[4008]a we ; ; |
[4009]t
[4011]“MER
[4013]be telling about these inhumane ‘conditions, I will hurt not only,
[4015]the agencies, ‘the intelligenice service of the U.S., I will hurt
[4017]i in what conditions and what treatment defectors is receiving.
[4019]4
[4020]j
[4021]|
[4022]Sir, i prefer that you be ‘using materials when it was ceartba |
[4024]|
[4025]ie interests of the U.S. so hWho.-would {likevité defects: reading
[4026]i
[4027]1
[4029]|
[4032]VW
[4033]= i |
[4034]@ i | humane relations with me, which was started at the end of ‘67. |
[4035]sit still was under arrest but I was transferred from the extremely
[4036]7 i ;
[4037]13 | Spartan conditions, and with me started to work Mr. Bruce | :
[4038]i | Senie, who passed through the whole life, through all cases, :
[4039]a through everything. People who were talking with me before |
[4040]«| were coming with what they were told, how to approach to me, |
[4041]20 | how to treat me. They have come with made opinion, before .
[4042]| whatever I will say yes or no. That is why I consider it. -
[4043]| . : ree . . . |
[4044]| i
[4045]22 |
[4047]|
[4049]jis all unlawful documents in the period of interrogations.done
[4050]7 ;
[4051]Iby anyone in CIA. up until the end of '67.- , on, |
[4052].
[4054]The. Chairman. Is there. anything further, Mr. Nosenko? i
[4056]Mr. Nosenko. No, sir.
[4058]Ma
[4059]in
[4061]H
[4063]| (Pages 53 thru 78, being Commi tte, business only, are excerpted. )
[4064]i 7 : :
[4065]4
[4067]|
[4069]‘HW 50955 Docld: 32277209 .
[4071]78
[4073]veyME. Blakey... Shall I inform. the witness?
[4075]i
[4076]| . . i
[4077]| The Chairman. In light of the time situation and our
[4079]‘.
[4082]joriginal intention of trying. to wind up by. 10:00. pem., the Chair;
[4084]4 i?
[4086]| thinks Perhaps we ought to try and invoke a five minute rule
[4090]i
[4091]|
[4092]i
[4093]|
[4094]t
[4095]i i
[4096]i
[4098]5 [so ‘that everybody: gets a fair’ ‘opportunity rather: than to proceed
[4099].
[4100]6 | informally and extend this matter over a long period of time. .
[4101]|
[4102]? I Anyone have any objection? |
[4103]i.
[4104]3 | All right, bring the witness in. |
[4106]oh (Whereuponyp at 8:43 o'clock p.m., the witness returned |
[4107]t : . + .
[4108]: . |
[4109]19 Feo the hearing room.) ~ |
[4110]HO |
[4111]VW The Chairman. Let the record reflect the fact the witness |
[4112]We ;
[4113]4 jnas again returned to the witness table and, Mr. -Nosenko, i
[4114].
[4115]Fa 13 i at this time counsel for the Committee has concluded his vaste
[4117]ae . 1
[4118]if ito you and at thispoint in time the members of the Committee | -
[4119]| “4
[4120]VS j Would | like to be able to pose questions to you with reference ~
[4121]i | |
[4122]a it Oo -your testimony “here yesterday and this evening. Is that |
[4123]. , . so i
[4124]‘ 2 |
[4125]7 agreeable to you, sir? |
[4126]iL i
[4127]15 i Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir. i
[4128]4 |
[4129]19 I The Chairman. Thank you.
[4130]a | |
[4131]20. | The Chair at this point would invoke the five minute H
[4132]i .
[4133]3 i
[4134]t . - |
[4135]2} | rule. The Chair will begin the questions. i
[4137]Mr. Nosenko, you are now a citizen of the United States,
[4139]i
[4140]1
[4141]H
[4142]i
[4143]i
[4144]|
[4145](
[4148]| you are now an employee of the CIA, I understand as a consultants
[4150]jis that correct?
[4152]Mr. Nosenko. On private contract. I am not an employee
[4156]1
[4158]Poo.
[4159]t
[4160]t
[4165]i
[4168]4
[4170]Gee
[4175]sh
[4177]HW 50955 Docld:32277209 Page 55”
[4182]Lee
[4184]A a9
[4186](of the CIA. I amon. a private contract, used as a consultant
[4188]on counterintelligence of the Soviet KGB.
[4190]ce)
[4192]The Chairman. And in that capacity, sir, are you paid an
[4194]ron
[4196]annual salary?
[4198]a .
[4199]} vas re :
[4200]oy. ‘Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir, I am paid an annual salary.
[4201]é | The Chairman. And what is that salary?
[4202]} : . . i
[4203]|
[4204]i
[4206]Mr. Nosenko. $35,000.
[4207]The Chairman. And --
[4208]Mr. Nosenko. It is the last year, because it was cost of |
[4210]living.
[4212]The Chairman. I see. In that capacity, do you contract —
[4214]1a Lous also to other persons or other organizations?
[4215]|
[4216]i
[4218]Mr. Nosenko. No.
[4220]ig The Chairman. This is your sole income?
[4221]Is | Mr. Nosenko. | only one sole income.
[4222]a
[4223]ie The Chairman. Has the CIA given you anything else of
[4224]7 value other than a salary, that is, a home, anything of that.
[4226]2 j)-sort? : ; h
[4228]Mr. Nosenko. No, sir. And in the book published, written:;:”
[4230]f : i
[4231]by Epstein was mentioned CIA bought me home. No, sir, I bought}
[4233]oO 6
[4235]home on my money, nobody bought me a home, no.
[4237]The Chairman. . You also now are remarried and you have --
[4239]734 Mr .Nosenko.. Yes, sir, I am married. I am American citizen,
[4240]i
[4242]ND
[4243]be
[4245]| I have five stepchildren and six grandchildren.
[4248]as sace,
[4250]The Chairman. You now have a passport? Do you have a
[4256]50955 Doold:32277209 Page 56.
[4260]s
[4262]fey
[4263]a
[4265], wa 50955 Docld:
[4267]i
[4269]we it
[4271]eo  _
[4272]. ‘ one
[4273]i
[4281]i
[4282]a
[4286]o
[4288]Oo
[4294]‘4 prey
[4296]j
[4298]|
[4300]i
[4301]t
[4303]i
[4304]i
[4305]i
[4306]A
[4307]i
[4309]80
[4311]passport. as arn
[4312]Mr. Nosenko.. Yes, I have a passport, which I once used
[4314]being sent by the Agency in 1975, in England, for week where
[4316]Iwas talking with British Intelligence and Counterintelligence
[4318]Services, concerning .my knowledge of the Second Chief Direc-
[4319]torate, KGB in general.
[4321]The Chairman. Is that the only country to which you have
[4322]traveled since your defection?
[4324]Mr. Nosenko. No. I have traveled on behalf of. the
[4325]Central Intelligence Agency also for the last four years. I.
[4326]was in eleven countries. And I never received or demanded or
[4327]asking any special fees for consultations with all friendly
[4328]intelligence services, never.
[4330]The Chairman. Have you ever returned to Soviet Russia?
[4332]Mr. Nosenko. Never once in Soviet Union from 1964 and
[4333]hope will never see it again.
[4335]The Chairman. And how long have you now been a consultant
[4337]for CIA?
[4339]Mr. Nosenko. I was from 1969, from April 1969, when I was
[4341]released from detention arrest.
[4343]The Chairman. Now, will you clarify for us when you first
[4344]were placed under arrest?
[4346]Mr. Nosenko. Fourth of April, 1964.
[4348]The Chairman. And on what. date had you defected?
[4350]Mr. Nosenko. I defected 4th of February of 1964 in Geneva,
[4352]Tan ocr
[4353]ORE a ash is
[4354]AWE 38 be. 7
[4355]32277209 Page 57. 7” * _
[4357]i
[4359]1
[4361]|
[4363]i
[4364]i
[4369]H
[4370]i
[4371]i
[4372]i
[4373]i
[4376]hee Ye eR.
[4377]i A a .
[4378]i uP Skt SALE i se 81
[4380]Switzerland.
[4382]rot, Hf .. . . t
[4383]oO The Chairman. And when you were placed under arrest,
[4385]n>
[4387]2] where were’ you placed in detention? ;
[4391]eo ; 4] Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I do not know, it was somewhere around
[4393]i
[4394]eg | Washington, close to Washington, where I was '64 and beginning
[4396]Ce
[4397]6 | 165, approximately. I don't hear any radio, I didn't see any
[4398]9 ‘newspaper, I do not know, didn't know anything what happen in
[4400]the world for many years. Oo
[4402]oo
[4404]I know that it was by car from Virginia where I was ;
[4406]1 | staying from 12 of February '64, I was taken by car for visit
[4407]to doctor, and it was 30, 40 minute drive, it was in this area, |.
[4409]but then in approximately after a year and maybe 13 months, a
[4412]4
[4413]|
[4414]i.
[4415]|
[4416]| year and one month, roughly, I was transferred in very
[4418]| peculiar conditions, was put under shackles and handcuffs,
[4422]. I
[4424]| blindfolded, put in the car, and don't know where I was‘going, |
[4426]: . |
[4428]‘only I heard, passing through city, i ccouldn'tiunderstand ,
[4429]in oot
[4431]|p couldn’ t see anything, then Ir “heard airplanes, I understood
[4433]if . i
[4435]|
[4437]i
[4439]i
[4441]i
[4443]1
[4445]| that I was soméwhere in airport, and once I was scared to death,
[4447]I. think I was thinking they were returning me to the Russians.
[4451]jWell, they put me in airplane --
[4453]The Chairman. Mr. Nosenko, my time has expired. I want
[4455]RY
[4457]| to recognize --
[4459]Mr. Nosenko. I do not know the place, sir. - I know I only
[4461]a
[4463]te
[4465]|now found out reading the book of Daniel Schorr that I was in
[4467]| Camp Perry’ up to the end of '67. That is what I found out from
[4470]“
[4472]am "a hy a FA oy 8
[4473]i at ce a ee: -
[4474]q 1 BY B at e ae s
[4475]: ge Bh. Sh fy BD uy a
[4476]a 50955 Bocld: 32277209 Page 58° ot ~
[4478]TOP SECRET
[4480]| |
[4482]} i the book. |
[4483]oo 2 | “The Chairman. ‘Thank you. |
[4485]3 | Mr. Preyer. |
[4486]@ 4 | Mr. Preyer. Me. Nosenko’ “one thing that comes through ve ly
[4487]§ ¥ strongly in your testimony is that it is a hard life to he a
[4489]6 || defector. I think to the average mentality we think it would
[4491]7 be good for a country to welcome a defector, but to the
[4493]g | intelligence mentality apparently a defector is immediately sus
[4495]9 | pect, and you have. recounted your ‘treatment here, and apparentl
[4497]| Lee Harvey Oswald, from your testimony, was greeted somewhat
[4498]| ; To Tse Tg,
[4500]- Q
[4502]like this in‘ the U.S.S.R. ‘His’ treatment was. much different
[4504]from yours.
[4506]4
[4510]One thing he was not an intelligence agent, of course.
[4512]Yr
[4516]KGB. The impression I get was the mere fact of being a defect
[4518]i
[4519]| But you have indicated that he was kept at arms' length by the
[4520]caused the KGB to be less interested in him than if it was
[4522]| .
[4524]Mr. Nosenko. Right.
[4526]: 17 {| Someone they had recruited?
[4527]Mr. Preyer. Although he was kept at arms' lencth: by the
[4528]| KGB, in the sense that he was not contacted, it does appear
[4529]2 | that he lived very well there, relatively speaking. “He cer-
[4530]tainly lived much.better than you lived in your early years.
[4531]a mee he was given a job in Minsk, he was given a pension,
[4532]which is something that seems extraordinary in this country,
[4534]ng 4 from the ‘Red Cross, and apparently pretty good housing conditions
[4536]a ee
[4538]i i. ge
[4539]HY 50955 DBocld: 32277209 Page 59 . Toe Secrel
[4541]Le)
[4543]ov)
[4545]HY 50955 Docld:3
[4547]83
[4549]TU? SECRET
[4551]in Minsk.
[4553]|
[4554],
[4555]|
[4556]- Is that typical way that a defector would be treated in
[4557]Russia, is ‘at: anmhs Teng th? |
[4559]Mr. Nosenko. Every defector will be watched but, sir,
[4560]when you mentioned what he received being in Russia, it is very
[4561]little. I can give you only one example. When defectors
[4562]‘Martin ‘and Mitchell, employees of NSA, who cooperated with KGB
[4564]abroad, and then they defected to Soviet Union, they received
[4566]| extraordinary help. It is not like Oswald. Oswald is nothing.
[4567]-Mr. Preyer. The amount of money?
[4569]‘Mr. Nosenko.w The amount of money and other things,
[4573]extroardinary.
[4574]Mr. Preyer. For Oswald were not extraordinary?
[4575]Mr. Nosenko. No.
[4576]Mr. Preyer. You’ mentioned the other three defectors that
[4578]you had known of. What sort of treatment did they receive?
[4581]|
[4583]|
[4584]|
[4585]i
[4586]|
[4587]| vow
[4588]| Mr. Nosenko. I will tell you what Martin and Mitchell --
[4589]| Mr. Preyer. were they two of the other three?
[4591]| Mr. Nosenko. ‘These two, for example. I can mention other
[4592]| what I heard, I never work with them, what I heard. Martin
[4594]| and Mitchell, by decision-of Soviet Governient was given them,
[4596]| to each one, $100,000 on their account, was given apartment,
[4598]not like Oswald received, but real’ good apartment, so-called
[4600]classless society, living high class. Each one was given car,
[4602]each one received life pension a month of (5000 Soviet rubles
[4608]Fe cc te arinenee ee tat tain oF marnahranetvnrni tte nat ata rN Et AO i A
[4610]22
[4612]24
[4614]Se
[4616]wr sooss tocracssaln0 say x TOP. SECRET
[4620]a
[4622]i
[4624]OP SECHET
[4626]up to death. And each one was helped with work. Both were
[4628]84
[4630]assignéd with:.some type. of: research: work:..where they had given
[4632]‘position, let's say Martin was given position of researcher.
[4634]4
[4636]But amount of pay of his was analogical to the amount of pay
[4638]of the Director of this Institute, ‘besides what he is
[4640]receiving of pension. This is the treatment of those defectors
[4641]whom they want, who had given them valuable information.
[4643]In case of -= excuse me -- was Annabella Buear defected
[4644]something early "50s. She was working in American Embassy in |
[4645]Press Department. She also received, in spite of the fact
[4646]was making very. good money in the Soviet Union, she was working
[4647]for Moscow Radio, she was receiving life pension of big amount,
[4648]amount approximately what in Soviet Union is received by Deputy
[4650]of Minister, of Ministry, of this or that ‘industry.
[4652]Mr. Preyer. But the defector who was not giving informa-
[4655]Mr. Nosenko. Now, he will be given a little bit something
[4656]pension like was Oswald, to Oswald given pension. I don't
[4658]know what was given to Webster, 4 worker, who was defected in '59
[4660]and by the way, in very short period of time he decided he
[4662]doesn't like the life in the so-called Soviet paradise. He
[4664]wanted to return back home, but if he received it will be
[4665]analogical to what Oswald received, not more.
[4666]The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired...
[4668]Mr. Devine.
[4671]TOP SECRET
[4673]85
[4674]1 Mr. Devine. _ Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
[4675]Co 2 Were you solicited to be a defector?
[4676]3 Mr. Nosenko. No, sir. ‘No, sir. .
[4677]@. 4 Mr. bevine. . why did you defect?
[4678]5 Mr. Nosenko. I _défected because I for years of my life
[4680]6 | has come to number of conclusions that the whole society, the
[4681]7 | whole system, is dictatorial system, nondemocratic system,
[4683]8 || the true police state system, and especially working the
[4685]9 || KGB opened eyes for me. My defection was strictly on ideologi
[4687]10 i cal basis.
[4689]WW Mr. Devine. Had you been out of the Soviet Union prior.
[4691]42 | to your defection?
[4693]eS
[4695]eS . 13 | Mr. Nosenko. ves .
[4696]: i4 | Mr. Devine. Other than’ to Geneva? .
[4697]as) Mr. Nosenko. ves, I was in England twice, then I was
[4698]16 | passing through a number of countries, staying day, two,
[4699]47 | France, Belgium, HOlland. I was in 1960 in Cuba.
[4700]_ 13 Mr. Devine. You were a married man in” Russia? - |
[4701]19 Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir. |
[4702]20 Mr. Devine. Had a child? |
[4703]a1 1° Mr. Nosenko. Yes, two daughters. ~
[4704]22 Mr. Devine. Were you having some domestic difficulties?
[4706]Mr. Nosenko. No. I tried in 1960-'61, I tried to arrange
[4710]s¢ fit-fell down, and I understood I cannot go abroad with ‘family,
[4713]a
[4715]| a AR .
[4716]WW 50955 Docld:32277209 Page 62 TOP SECRET oo °
[4718]|
[4720]i
[4722]to go to work abroad with my family, and in the last moment
[4723]|
[4725]|
[4727]1
[4729]_
[4731]T _ 13
[4735]ar)
[4737]16
[4739](UP SECRET 6
[4741]and that is why when I contacted CIA in '62, I =~ psychologically
[4743]I was ready, ideologically was ready and psychologically ready
[4745]to defect, but the question of family was bothering me.
[4747]Mr. Devine. But not enough to keep you there?
[4748]Mr. Nosenko. Not enough to keep me there. And in '64
[4749]I has come knowing that I will never return.
[4750]Mr. Devine. You were willing to abandon your family?
[4751]Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir, because I didn't see possibility
[4753]to take family out: I was living the last four or five years
[4755]as a man with two souls, splitted personality, one I must show
[4757]and was showing, aS good KGB officer, as a good Communist, as
[4759]a patriot of the Soviet system, the Soviet Union, and the other
[4762]part of me, the true part I am not believing in what I am
[4763]'
[4765]| telling, I am not believing in the system, I do not like it,
[4767]on because I was working in KGB, I knew it. I simply couldn't
[4769]more tolerate to be with this double splitted personality.
[4771]Mr. Devine. How did you dispose of your children and your
[4773]i do not want it, and I consider what phony things are going
[4774]wife in Russia?
[4776]Mr. Nosenko. The thing was psychologically, my had, had
[4777]in my mind. help me. My mother was rather rich, after death of }
[4778]father, she was very rich woman and she had a lot that will be
[4780]enough not only for my children but their children and grand-
[4782]children. From the point of view of material they will never
[4784]1 suffer.
[4786]. i er
[4787]HW 450955 Bocld: 32277209 Page 63 . TOP Score! .
[4791]JW
[4793]12.
[4795]Y . 13
[4797]16
[4800]13
[4802]|
[4803]|
[4805]t
[4806]|
[4807]i
[4808]t
[4810]| defection cause some irritation among those in power over there
[4812]sooss ourasseives vee TOP. SECRET
[4814]TOP SEGRET | a
[4816]Mr. ovine. Yes, but as a defector would there not be
[4817]reprisals taken by the Soviet Union against your family?
[4819]Mr. Nosenko. sir, before the death of Stalin it coulda
[4820]be taken drastic measures against the family, but after the
[4821]death of Stalin, from middie 1950s, quite a little changes took
[4822]place in the Soviet union, and’ the family will not suffer.
[4824]Another thing, oh sure, will be certain things. which they
[4825]cannot achieve. Let's say my brother who studied later in
[4826]the same Institute what I finish, Institute of International
[4827]Relations, he will never have possibility to go. abroad, but
[4828]he will never ‘be put in jail, can never be exiled from Moscow,
[4829]the same, nothing happened with family.
[4831]Mr. Devine. The fact that you were a KGB man didn't your
[4833]a) ee
[4835]Mr. Nosenko. Sure.
[4836]Mr. Devine. Did they want to get you back, didn't they
[4837]want to get even with you?
[4839]Mr. Nosenko. Oh, yes, and they are looking for me.
[4841]Mr. Devine. But they took no reprisals against your family.
[4843]Mr. Nosenko. No. |
[4845]Mr. Devine. How do you know that?
[4847]Mr. Nosenko. Well, I do not know exactly, but you see,
[4848]there were some defections before. The family didn't suffer lik
[4849]it was, let's say, in '40s and maybe up to death of Stalin.
[4851]Mr. Devine. Were those KGB defections?
[4853]Mr. Nosenko. Even from KGB.
[4857](GP SECRET | oo
[4859]88 i
[4860]1 The Chairman. The time of the gentleman: has expired.
[4861]oo 2 Mrs. Burke?
[4862]3 Mrs. burke. Well, 1 Wolld Like to go back a little bit
[4864]after you decied to defect. I think you had a number of
[4866]§ |} conversations with the American Embassy, was it, or was it
[4867]. i
[4869]6 || CIA, during those ten days that you were in touch, where you
[4871]t
[4874]7 || negotiated whether or not “you would in fact defect?
[4876]8 Mr. Nosenko. No, I contacted. CIA in “1962 and -- ;
[4877]| Mrs. Burke. In '64? i
[4878]10 | Mr. Nosenko. In "64, when I arrived in Geneva, on second
[4879]" day I mailed a cable, and I Knew -- a prearranged addressed,
[4880]2 | and I knew that in two days somebody in appropriate place and
[4881]ay 13 | appropriate time will meet me from CIA.. i
[4882]. !
[4883]foe id Mrs. Burke. And they met you -- :
[4884]154 Mr. Nosenko.. They met me and I was meeting them every
[4885]16 | day, visiting, and when I had free time, visited Secret address
[4886]7 | in Geneva. oo ; i |
[4887]13 Mrs. Burke. All right, during those times jyou were meeti
[4888].| them, did you negotiate in terms of what your situation would
[4890]99 || be here in the United States if you defected, ox where you woj
[4892]Ld
[4893]a
[4896]29 Mr. Nosenko. Well, I put a question chat what amount o
[4897]. eo. | 74 salary I want, that will find for me job. This I negotiate,
[4898]. 14 | Mrs. Burke. Did you discuss whether or not you wou!
[4900]be imprisoned?
[4902]|
[4903]| _
[4904]HW 50955 voora:32277209 Page 65 . , TOP SEGRET
[4906]TOP SECRET ag.
[4908]89
[4910]1 Mr. Nosenko. No, it never come to my mind that they woul
[4912]co 2 | imprison me.
[4913]3 Mrs. Burke. Did you tell them that -- I think you told
[4914]@ 4 jus you had some information you would well to them for a
[4916]§ | certain amount of money.
[4917]& Mr. Nosenko. It's in '62.
[4919]7 Mrs. Burke. In '62 you said that. In '64 you didn't
[4921]g8 | discuss any sale of any information?
[4923]g Mr. Nosenko. No, no, on the contrary, for the period of
[4925]190 | “62 -'64, I tried to get as much as possible tnformatiion:. not
[4927]1] #only to come what I knew where I participated in the depart-
[4929]|
[4930]12 Ronee but to find out as much as possible what can
[4931]& 3 | be valuable to the American intelligence and I had come with
[4932]on { . . .
[4933]tee” 14 | some luggage. |
[4934]4s Mrs. Burke. All right, well, during the time that you wer
[4935]6 | talking to them about what your salary would be, the circum
[4936]VW | stances of your defection, and I assume you told them what you
[4937]1a ee was, some of the things you worked on -- |
[4938]19 Mr. Nosenko. Yes. |
[4939]| Mrs. Burke. -- did you tell them you worked on the |
[4940]1 | oswara file? i
[4941]| Mr. Nosenko. I do not remember, I can mention. I do not
[4942]|
[4943]i
[4945]33 || remember, honestly.
[4947]24 | Mrs. Burke. Did you discuss Oswald at all with them during
[4948]: i
[4950]i that period?
[4952]aot, _& -
[4953]i '
[4955]A
[4958]y
[4959]4
[4961]. g :
[4962]HY 50955 Bocld: 32277209 Page 66— TOP SECRET :
[4964]TOP SEGHET
[4966]| 90
[4968]i Mr. Nosenko. I must, sure, mentioned this fact because,
[4970]- -24 no, it happened such a thing. “I mast mention. But I do not
[4972]3 | remember. a cannot tell you what questions were, what my
[4974]@. | 4 | answers were. |
[4976]7 5 Mrs. Burke. Did you tell them that the Soviet Union thought
[4977]6 that Oswald may have béen a United States agent?
[4978]7 Mr. Nosenko. Yes, I certainly -- it would be -- anyone
[4979]g | treated. Oswald, or anyone from the United States who
[4980]9 || come to live on his own decided to defect, or they contacted
[4981]| ni before, they will still will be suspected ina possibility
[4983]that he is an agent of American intelligence, and also this fact.
[4985]2 Mrs. Burke. And is..this the reason that you gave him why
[4986]@ > 13 | he was not allowed to remain in the Soviet Union? .
[4987]-, ;
[4988]Poe! ia | ' Mr. Nosenko. The reason was that they didn't want him to
[4989]ae] stay because, KGB, because they didn't consider him an interest
[4990]I - 7
[4991]16 | ing target, an interesting person who has valuable information
[4992]7 Mrs. Burke. I know that. In fact, I remember you
[4993]18 | saying something about a person would only be interesting under
[4994]| certain circumstances, one of which would be if they came in as
[4995]2 | a tourist and they applied a very short time before they seceeten
[4996]a | Mr. Nosenko. Oh no. {
[4997]2 Mrs: Burke. And they were an add on to, for instance,
[4998]*, | the tour. |
[4999]24 | Mr. Nosenko. Right. Right. “
[5000]”, 25 | Mrs. Burke. Now, from what that report shows, it shows that
[5002]I Oe
[5004]| .
[5005]{|
[5007]| . .
[5009]scons veauosslvas mma TOP SECRET a
[5011][UP SECRET — a1
[5013]Oswald received his visa in two days to come to the Soviet
[5015]os 2 | union. So he would be automatically suspect, and he would be
[5016]3 automatically what you would call an interesting person.
[5017]@: 4 : Mr. Nosenko. No, no, no. In this case, you see, Oswald
[5018]5
[5020]even didn't receive a visa in United States; he received it
[5022]6 |passing through Europe.
[5024]7 Mrs. Burke. Through Helsinki?
[5025]8 | , Mr. Nosenko. Right, in Finland, where it's process was
[5026]3 | easier than it will ‘be in the United States. He simply bought.
[5027]10 la tour and he received, managed to receive visa.
[5028]Y | Mrs. Burke. Let me just ask one other: thing.
[5029]12 Didiyou tell them any of your, aside from the ideological,
[5030]@- ; 13 fh you wanted to defect? For instance, did you tell them
[5031]oe id anything about this promotion you thought you had when you went
[5032]is Ito, was it, Gorki?
[5033]i
[5034]16. | Mr. Nosenko. Yes.
[5035]VW | Mrs. Burke. But then you --
[5036]13 | Mr. Nosenko. No, I didn't tell them. I simply said that
[5037]19 | position, because with me, it was documented, I lied. I
[5038]20 en my position was Lieutenant Colonel. It wasn't true. It
[5039]21 lwas false statement. The same false statement was concerning
[5040]; 22 |recatt telegram when I wanted to push the defection process.
[5041]| .
[5042]®. 4 ! Mrs. Burke. My time is up. May I just ask one
[5044]24 question? Were you upset when you didn't get your promotion
[5046]1
[5048]—_ 3s jafter they had --
[5051]| |
[5052]HW 450955 poera:32277209 Page 66 : . 10? SECRET
[5055](UP SEGRET a
[5057]Mr. Nosenko. No, no ma'am. I still didn't receive it.
[5058]It was sent on signature. You see, they are signing, not
[5060]immediately when they are received. Personnel Directorate
[5062]gather~infrom-all-ever:the: Soviet:Union,: fromiall°KGBs.and
[5063]‘comment on signature to the Chairman, twice, three times a
[5064]year. They “were simply gathering in and didn't get enough
[5065]materials. I do not know. Maybe it was signed in January. But
[5066]up to my leaving, nobody informed me that it was signed. I
[5068]j didn't -- wasn't rejected.
[5070]| The Chairman. The time of the gentlewoman has. expired.
[5071]Mr. Dodd?
[5073]Mr. Dodd. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
[5075]I wonder if you might let me ask you -- let me start back
[5076]jhere, very quickly. One of the very first questions you were
[5078]asked last night by Mr. Klein, was the way Mr. Klein worded
[5080]the question, and I will ask you to expound on it if it is a
[5081]correct recall on my part. |
[5083]Mr. Klein asked you or stated that you arranged for your
[5084]transfer to the American section of the KGB. He used the words |
[5085]you arranged for your transfer to that section. Is that an
[5086]accurate statement? Did you want to be in that section? Did you
[5088]|
[5090]specifically ask to be in that section? |
[5091]Mr. Nosenko. No, it wasn't accurate, it wasn't right. |
[5093]Arrangement was done in work form. I was working after finishing
[5095]Institute in GRU, Navy Intelligence, and being in 1952 New Year,
[5096]|
[5098]scsom mauazinm wae TOP SECRET
[5100]‘TOP SECRET
[5102]] in Moscow on New Year on a short leave, I was in company wheré
[5104]os 2 a one of my friends with whom I studied at the Institute.
[5106]ces)
[5108]Hexworkéds anithe Ministry of Foreign Affairs. But his father-
[5110]@. 4 in-law was high:ranked General of MGB;,...in“ those -years was
[5112]§ | called KGB, and he asked me what I am doing, this General.
[5114]& I said that I am working for the Navy Intelligence, GRU.
[5116]; Do you like this work? |
[5117]a | I said no, because I am not using what I received
[5118]| education.
[5120]10 | Would you like to work in MGB? *
[5122]| 'I said, if it will be with the use of my disciplines
[5124]a which I studied at the Institute, why not? That is all. - And
[5126]@ . 13 | in March after death of Stalin this general was appointed the
[5127]. .
[5129]ig | First Deputy Minister of MGB of Beria. He remembered this
[5130].
[5131], . + . i
[5132]1s | conversation and several days after death of Stalin I was recalled
[5134]to MGB which was called MVD in this period of time, in March of
[5136]i
[5138]16 |
[5140]in| '53, and was assigned to Second Chief Directorate. This is what!
[5141], .
[5143]| true statement.
[5145]19 | Mr. Dodd. When you sent to the safe house or whatever it
[5147]29 || was in Geneva, in 1964, by your own admission you lied to the
[5148]agent there in that you stated you had received a telegram
[5150]39 || issuing your recall back to the Soviet Union.
[5152]Mr. Nosenko. Right.
[5154]a4 | : Mr. Dodd. Therefore, it was ‘that important that they
[5156]# accept you immediately.
[5159]in
[5161]HY 50955 poora:32277209 Page 70 . .. TOP SECRET |
[5163]| «UP SECRET
[5165]i
[5166]Did you show anyone a telegram?
[5168]94
[5172]cm 2 Mr. Nosenko. No, sirys noyesir, There wasn't any telegram.
[5173]3 Mr. Dodd. Did they ask for a telegram?
[5174]6 | days. I am afraid of that any moment my Chief of the Second
[5175]7 || Chief Directorate will be returning from France.
[5176]3 Mr. Dodd. I didn't ask you that, Mr. Nosenko. My questi
[5177]9 | to you is, were you asked whether or not you had a copy of
[5179]CG. 4 Mr. Nosenko. No, but, sir, what happened, I started to
[5180]. § |}meet them in January, had passed three, four, five, six, seven
[5181]19 | the telegram that you had received from the Soviet Union? |
[5182]n Mr. Nosenko. And I -- if I was even asked I couldn't
[5183]12 give them because I cannot take it. It would be secret |
[5184]t
[5186]4 cable.
[5189]1g | Mr. Dodd. You have answered my question.
[5190]it
[5191]|
[5192]16 | supposition on your part, but I am curious about it. -- you stat
[5196]4S You stated last night that -- and this might have been a |
[5198]17 | that it was your feeling that the intelligence community in
[5200]13 this country considered you a dispatched agent in 1962. Is
[5202]that something that you felt in 1962?
[5203]Mr. Nosenko. No. It's -- |
[5205]Mr. Dodd. A reflection back?
[5207]Mr. Nosenko. A reflection back. No, no, sir.
[5209]Mr. Dodd. You, by your own statement, again have received |
[5212]Me
[5214]j some very rough treatment, inhuman treatment, to use your words,
[5216]4 Living under spartan conditions, and I am sort of brushing over
[5218]if ; . . i
[5219]HY 50955 Docld: 32277209 Page TL TOP SECRET . :
[5221]14
[5223]me)
[5227]17
[5229]TOP SECRET
[5231]this very quickly, between 1964 and 1969. Certainly you
[5233]95
[5235]couldn't have been very pleased with the way you were being
[5236]treated by a country that you had defected to and offered to
[5237]give information to. So for a period of that '64, to '69,
[5238]five years, you went through a rather rough period in your Life?
[5239]Mr. Nosenko. Yes.
[5240]Mr. Dodd. why did you go to work for somebody who treated
[5241]you like that? .
[5242]Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I, even was five year there, I didn't
[5243]consider that it was decision of the whole CIA. I didn't
[5244]consider that --. ‘I didn't blame the whole CIA because it
[5245]wasn't the question decided by the whole Agency. tt was
[5246]decided question by several persons who were t consider simply
[5247]in this period of time sick, mentally sick, not ill, but |
[5248]were simply in fear, in scare, in mania as if KGB penetrated
[5249]everything.
[5251]Mr. Dodd. Is it your statement to me that for five
[5252]years, while you were incarcerated in almost solitary confine-
[5254]ment, that you thought that this was the individual acts of a
[5256]couple of employees of this Agency? |
[5257]Mr. Nosenko. Not employees. | |
[5258]Mr. Dod. Without the approval of the very highest |
[5259]authority in this Agency?
[5261]Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I have seen Chief of Soviet Russia
[5263]Division, Mr. David Murphy. He was a high ranking man. It was
[5264]|
[5266]ssooss vocsealnes een TOP. SECRET
[5268]14
[5270]1S
[5272]16
[5274]7
[5276]mar)
[5278]| the quéstion, I want to be paid for every year which I was_
[5280](TOP SECRET
[5282]his decision, decision of Mr. Angleton, decision of Mr.
[5284]Murphy, and when they are coming to Director, and I know, from
[5286]“my life, they can report in the way how they will report it, an
[5288]the Director will accept because they are responsible people,
[5289]they are sitting in this place. He is not going into details,
[5290]he is not going and studying, he is not going himself visiting.
[5292]The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired.
[5294]Mr. Sawyer? |
[5296]Mr. Sawyer. First, have you received any compensation
[5297]for the period during.-which you were held in jail?
[5299]Mr. Nosenko. I received in several years later, I put
[5301]unlawfully. arrest, the amount of money which we have. agreed,
[5303]with taken taxes and whatever American citizens are paying.
[5305]Mr. Sawyer. Did you get that?
[5306]Mr. Nosenko. Yes, and on this sum of money I bought
[5307]the house.
[5309]Mr. Sawyer. I see.
[5311]I will tell you what bothers me about your testimony, very
[5312]frankly. You stated that they would be very interested in a
[5313]member of the American intelligence community that they could
[5314]even compel to defect. Here you hada willing defector, a guy
[5316]who said that undoubtedly that he didn't like America, and
[5318]t
[5320]|
[5321]that he did like Russia, and he wants to defect, and nobody . |
[5322]even interrogates him, according: to you, as to what exposure on |
[5323]|
[5325]i
[5327]i
[5329]‘yw 50955 pocsa:a2277209 rage 72 TOP SECRET
[5331]r™ 2
[5332]3
[5333]®. 4
[5335]12
[5337]4
[5338]“AS
[5339]16
[5341]17
[5343]i
[5345]igP SECRET . 97
[5346]|
[5348]experience he had, He might have worked in the missile silos,
[5350]j lives there for a period of, a long period of time. Here is a
[5352]somebody who doesn't want to talk to you or that might not want
[5354]he might have done anything, but nobody asked him, and that he
[5355]to talk to you. And here is a fellow who was a radar operator,
[5357]experienced to some degree, and I don't know to what degree,
[5358]but apparently the Russians don't know to what degree either,
[5359]because nobody asked him, in a highly secret air base in Japan,
[5360]but they didn't ask him even about that, and it is very rare
[5361]to have one come. 7
[5363]Tt have listened to Radio Free Cuba, where they air all
[5364]kinds of propaganda, — and this guy would have been certainly
[5366]| good, for propaganda when he loved Russia and hated the ‘United
[5368]States. And I just, with those circumstances, I very frankly
[5369]find it almost impossible to believe that they did not
[5370]thoroughly interrogate him at least.
[5372]Mr. Nosenko. They never considered him an. interesting
[5373]target. It was known that he served in Marine Corps.
[5375]Mr. Sawyer. What I am getting at, how did they know
[5376]whether he was an interesting target when they never even asked
[5378]Mr. Nosenko. They judging by what they know about him
[5380]what in questionnaire he filled and plus what they found out
[5382]from interpreter on him. He said to interpreter, he served
[5384]in Marine Corps, he finished his years of service.
[5386]sso outaseines omen ‘TOP. SECRET
[5388]guy that is totally willing to talks. It is not like approachin
[5391]TOP SECRET =
[5393]1 Mr. Sawyer. But he might have been a eryptographer in the
[5394]co 2 | Marine Corps. He might have been as an enlisted man, he
[5395]i might have been a cryptographer and know all our codes and
[5396]@. 4 | code methodology that might help break codes and that sort of
[5397]$ i} thing, but nobody ever asked him. what is what I don't under-
[5398]6 || stand. And I can't believe it, very frankly.
[5399]7 Mr. Nosenko. I understand, sir, but I am telling you he
[5400]8 | wasn't considered interesting target, and --
[5401]; | Mr. Sawyer. But they didn't have any facts to know
[5402]ia | whether he was interesting, and here is a guy that wants to
[5403]onl talk to them.
[5404]12 Mr. Nosenko. But the judgment made on each person to work
[5405]@. 13 | actively against him on the basis of his questionnaire. If
[5407]teacher, let's say he is working for the government, any
[5408]department, but for the Federal Government, or he is an officer
[5409]sure, on him will be paid attention.
[5411]Mr. Sawyer. Well, all right, we can drop that for a
[5412]minute.
[5414]But now, he got a visa in two days in Finland. I happen
[5416]to have been in Finland four years ago and wanted to get a
[5419]ig¢ | in questionnaire will be said he is, let's say, professor,
[5420]i
[5421]|
[5422]|
[5423]|
[5424]|
[5426]visa, a sort of a last minute decision, to go to Leningrad, and|
[5428]visa. Now, to issue him a visa in two days for Russia, that
[5430]+ is very unusual, apparently, so they must have had some
[5432]|
[5434]’ , «3 | I was told there is a minimum of 30 days before you can get a
[5435]|
[5436]f
[5438]P SECRET i”
[5440]aw 50955 Docld: 32277209 Page 75 Tf
[5443]«TOP SECRET |
[5444]: ; 7 99 - i
[5445]interest in getting him there. ° .
[5446]Mr. Nosenko. Sir, what I know, there wasn't any interest
[5447]to get him. “He managed to get this visa.
[5448]Mr. Sawyer. all right. | 7
[5450]The other thing I am curious about is when they interrogated
[5452]you so carefully here, why someone like Oswald, a known defecto
[5454]and who could well have been now a Russian intelligence agent,
[5455]comes back to the country, apparently CIA .or FBI, or nobody
[5456]paid a bit of attention to him, andilet him wander around the
[5458]19 | country with a Russian wife at will.
[5460]met , ‘ . a
[5461]re) oo ~“ a wm te w nw _
[5463]di I have used up my time.
[5465]The Chairman. Okay. The time of the gentleman has ~
[5471]expired.
[5473]Mr. Fithian.
[5475]“ae
[5476]a
[5478]|
[5479]|
[5481]16 | | |
[5482]is] ' Mr. Fithian. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
[5483]16 Mr. Nosenko, as I piece it together, there are four
[5484]17 | possibilities for this Committee to believe. Let me sketch
[5485]13 | out what those possibilities are.
[5486]| One, that you told the truth in 1964, but you are now
[5487]a misleading this Committee.
[5488]a | Two, that you told an untruth_in 1964, basically your |
[5489]22 | statements in 1964 were not true;.but you are telling the truth
[5490]~ |
[5492]Three, that in fact you were dispatched here’ by the KGB,
[5494]or the Soviet Government, because of apparent but unreal
[5497]HW 50955 Docld: 32277209 Page 76 . TOP. SECRET mo, -
[5499]VOP SeGkeT
[5501]j connections between the Soviets and Oswald and the assassinatio
[5503]100
[5505]mo. 2 | of President Kennedy. Obviously the USSR would need this for
[5506]. 3 | obvious reasons. They would badly need this for all sorts of
[5508]@. 4 | international reasons.
[5510]~ 5 And finally, the fourth option is that. you were dispatched
[5512]6 here by the Soviet Government and the KGB because there was an
[5513]zy || actual connection between the KGB and the assassinationnof*
[5515]g | President Kennedy.
[5517]9 | These are the items which I have picked up in the last
[5519]10 tv days that would .tend to lead some people to believe the
[5520]\ oe , :
[5522]last of the four, or at least the third to the last of the four;
[5523]either that the KGB dispatched you here.because they needed it
[5525]for political reasons, though they werennot involved, or they
[5527]dispatched you here because in fact they did collaborate with
[5529]iLOswald.
[5531]First, Oswald goes to Russia. You say he is rejected, but
[5533]|
[5534]i
[5535]|
[5537]|
[5538]16 |
[5539]7 | they grant him. a pension, however..small.
[5540]a7 | . - .
[5541]Second, they grant him the pleasures of a hunting club,
[5543]13.
[5544]ig Peven though you said earlier he was mentally unbalanced, and
[5545]ag | YOU are allowing him to use a gun.
[5546]a Three, they allowed him to marry in Russia.
[5547]. "| Four, they gave him a job.
[5548]eo. “3 _ Now, in -- not talking about the time when you were i
[5549]~ 2a pnder stress and incarcerated, but just talking about the two |
[5550]“, ne | months prior to that -- the FBI questioning, and the prearrest
[5551]i 25 .
[5553]a 50955 Docld: 32277209 paye n ; TOP SEGRE. | | | .
[5555]o* 2 |
[5556]: , 3 I .
[5557]5 .
[5559]‘ . ; a {
[5560]HW 50955 Docla:32277209 Page 78 : TOP SEt RET i ws, =
[5562]-against Oswald, you said, yet later on you said you had seven
[5564]file. You said no KGB ever ‘talked to Oswald regarding
[5566]iG? SECRET . - 101
[5567]story makes no sense.
[5568]The rejection of. Oswald's offer to defect makes absolutely
[5569]no sense to me. | |
[5570]Mr. sawyer has’ just pursued that momentarily. I think. tha
[5571]can be rejected: by us, by reasonable people, prima facie. I see
[5572]no reason to accept that part of your story whatsoever.
[5574]The exposition, taking you off to worry about the exposi-
[5576]‘tion, and so forth, was demonstrated a fraud.
[5578]No reprisals against your familys. Nobody ‘was working |
[5580]to eight large files, you only read the first portion of one
[5582]letting him defect. The reason you gave us for that was that he.»
[5583]slashed his wriists and you concluded he was. unstable. Yet prior
[5585]to that discovery of his instability, you granted him a visa |
[5587]-in two days.and he asked to be permitted to defect prior to
[5589]slashing his wrists, and therefore you had to make the decision
[5590]prior. to slashing his writs, prior to knowing that he slashed
[5592]his wrist, that you were going to reject him. That doesn't
[5594]hold. water either.
[5595]Finally, you said in your testimony American ‘defection was
[5596]very rare. “ALL the more reason, LE it only, happens once every
[5597]year or a of-times a year, or three times between 156
[5598]and '59, it is totally incredible to me that he would not have
[5600]-been interrogated. No réasonable person can believe that story
[5603]HY 50955
[5605]10
[5607]WV
[5609]72
[5611]13
[5613]saoasasheo om m TOP SECRET
[5615]You said he was not interesting, you were not interested
[5616]in him, the KGB rejected him, Despite that, you were "recruitil
[5617]right and left all kinds of people'.to assist in the espionage
[5618]operation." _
[5620]Now, all of these things, Mr. Nosenko, leads: me to be.
[5621]very, very disturbed By your story because it simply just on t
[5622]face of what you told us Last night and tonight, can't possibly
[5623]be true. | | |
[5625]In the first place, you remember too much now. You rememb
[5626]too much in the way of details after 15 years. therefore, I
[5627]have great difficulty accepting any of your story.
[5629]We as a Committee of the United states Congress are charge
[5631]with trying to assess what actually happened in the assassinati
[5633]of .President Kennedy . That is the central story. You have not
[5634]helped us very much. You have confused the issue. In fact,
[5635]by your testimony you have led at least this member to wonder
[5636]whether or not you are still working with:the KGB.
[5638]The Chairman. The time of the gentleman nas expired:.
[5639]I will permit the witness to answer.
[5641]Mr. Nosenko. Mr. Congressman said his opinion. Do you
[5643]ask me any question?
[5645]Mr. Fithian. I would just like to have you tell me why I
[5646]shouldn't believe that you were dispatched here by the KGB,
[5647]in the Light of just: theipoints I am making, in the light of
[5649]the enormous differences, not in the CIA interrogation under
[5651]Toy
[5654]HW 50955 Docld: 32277209 Page 60
[5656]|
[5658]|
[5660]I give you some of the direction for your consulting?
[5662]UP SECRET
[5664]kind of duress. It doesn't wash with me.
[5665]The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired.
[5667]Mr. Nosenko. Sir, if you want me to defend myself, I can
[5669]say only one thing. I never done from the first day in the
[5670]United States anything directed against this country. I tried
[5672]before I has come, when I contacted '62 the CIA, and has come
[5674]i
[5675]duress, but in the earlier period when you were not under that
[5676]in "64, I tried to get as much as possible information.. I
[5677]am the source who told concerning existence of microphones in
[5678]American embassy in Moscow. I am the man who have given, I
[5679]‘don't know , 300 cases --
[5680]Mr. Fithian. We are only concerned --
[5681]*. The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired.
[5683]Mr. Edgar.
[5685]Mr. Edgar. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
[5687]It is very hard to follow Mr. Fithian's comments because
[5688]I would like to shift gears a little bit. . BUt you indicated
[5689]to our Chairman that you now act as a consultant to the CIA.
[5691]Is that your only job? |
[5693]Mr. Nosenko. It is the only job.
[5695]Mr. Edgar. In the course of acting as consultant to the
[5697]CIA, do you have access to talking with CIA employees from time
[5699]i
[5700]to time who contact you and who assist you and protect you and |
[5702]Mr. Nosenko. Yes.
[5704]TOP SECRET
[5706](UP SEGNET Los
[5708]] Mr. Edgar. Have you ever been in a conversation with any
[5710]on, 2 | of the agents of the CIA about who might have been responsible
[5711]3] for having you detained on April 4th ,-208.>
[5712]@. 4 ; Mr. Nosenko. No.
[5713]: § Mr. Edgar. -- 1964.
[5714]6 Mr. Nosenko. No.
[5715]; Mr. Edgar. You’ indicated earlier you thought it was a man
[5716]8 | by the name of Murphy.
[5717]| Mr. Nosenko. Murphy, Chief of Soviet, former Chief of
[5718]10 | Suviet Russian Division, and Chief of Counterintelligence,
[5719]an former Chief of. Counterintelligence of the CIA Mr. Angleton
[5720]2 | because it cannot without him be decided.
[5721]@. 13° Mr. Ragar. Do you know of any other KGB agents or other
[5722]Moe 14 | defectors who were held in those very same conditions? —
[5723]as, Mr. Nosenko. No, I do not know.
[5724]16 | Mr. Edgar. Were there any other prisoners held nearby.
[5725]7 that you could hear or --
[5726]13
[5727]. confinement, no prisoner, nobody I could see.
[5728]20
[5730]Mr. Edgar. Yet you are still willing to. be a consultant
[5731]to the CIA?
[5733]Mr. Nosenko. I am -- no. Sir, I am consultant only on
[5735]Mr. Nosenko. No, sir, I was in solitary absolutely
[5737]i.
[5739]73 the base, on my knowledge what I know about counterintelligence
[5741]ail work of the KGB.
[5743]“Mr. Edgar. Well, you lave suggested to the Committeeithat
[5745]j Your statements given to the CIA in 1964 cannot be considered
[5747]HW 50955 pocla:3a277209 Page 81 - TOP SECRET | _
[5752]li reliable because the statements were given under duress, and
[5754]105
[5756]-_prior to our recess a’ few moments ago you indicated that you
[5757]3] felt that the tapes and the FBI and the CIA interrogations of
[5759]& . 4 1'64, '65, and '66 should not be considered as reliable
[5761]3 i statements.
[5762]6 Is that not correct?
[5764]7h . Mx. Nosenko. Yes, because I considered the whole arrest
[5766]8 | was unlawful, without due process of law, illegal arrest,
[5768]9 | what was the finding as unlawful by Rockefeller Commission.
[5769]raf Mr. Edgar. hank you.
[5770]a You were held under those spartan conditions and you
[5771]| indicated that those ‘statements would have to.be unreliable.
[5772]@. | Now, I have three specific questions, then, to ask you.
[5773]fe 14 Have you ever told the CIA that these statements could
[5774]cas! not be considered reliable?
[5775]6 | Mr. Nosenko. Sure,.when we started, they change the
[5776]| situation, they moved me from spartan conditions, started to
[5777]3. talk with me as a human being, to treat me as a human being.
[5778]| Mr. Edgar. Did you go on a point by point correction of
[5779]nl any of those statements you previously made?
[5780]| . Mr. Nosenko. It wasn't in the form of simply returning
[5781]2 | to document, it was case by case, whatever concerns me, my
[5782]e. 43 ! biography, my work, whatever cases I knew, whatever cases I
[5783]” was involved, all questions were raised by 20, 30 times each —
[5784]1
[5786]25 | case, when it was reevaluation of all information given by me.
[5788]ww sooss poorasostraos sae ee TP. SECRET
[5791]dUP S2GHel 106
[5793]Mr. Edgar. And it is your testimony that after 1967, '68,
[5795]when those interrogations took place, you gave accurate,
[5797])
[5800]truthful statements?
[5802]Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir, whatever and how good I recollect,
[5803]at the best.
[5805]Mr. Edgar. And those statements of '67-'68 should be
[5806]considered by this Committee as the absolute truth?
[5808]Mr. Nosenko. Right.
[5810]Mr. Edgar. And nothing but the truth.
[5812]Mr. Nosenko. Yes, yes, sir.
[5814]Mr. Edgar. And it is clear to you that all the questions
[5816]12 | that were raised about Oswald were also raised in 1967 and '68?
[5818]Mr. Nosenko. Everything was raised in this period.
[5820]id Mr. Edgar. If, then, this Committee discovers inconsis-~
[5821]1g | tencies in your statements that you made in 1967 and '68,
[5822]16 jafter your incarceration and the illegal period that you
[5823]A talk about, if we find inconsistencies between that statement
[5824]13 and the statements you gave us last night and tonight, which |
[5825]19 |}should we believe?
[5826]20 Mr. Nosenko. Sir, if -- you must believe -- not you must +
[5827]31] jit is up to you what you believe. But, six, let's say was read
[5828]; 22 |to me by Mr. Klein a question, that I said when I said concerning
[5829]eo. 4 ]Oswald, I did not mention physical surveillance. It is a big
[5830]g4 |operation. It is nothing big in the KGB to put under surveil-
[5832]| il)
[5833]a — — ,
[5834]& ~ o ws) oo “I oO wi oo
[5835]ee eee me SST nn ge es
[5837]2s filance Soviet or foreigner, or to control telephone conversations
[5838]|
[5839]i
[5841]i
[5843]— ' TOP SECE a
[5844]HY 50955 DocId: 32277209 Page 83 ® c RET °
[5846]HY 50955 Docld: 32277209 Page 64
[5848]sUP DSEGNET
[5850]or correspondence. I could maybe ‘something miss, you see,
[5851]when I mentioning. I do not have such a brilliant, brilliant
[5852]mind that immediately like photographic memory, immediately. -
[5854]return word and word. I simply was describing that it wasn't
[5856]active work, that there wasn't planned recruitment,. there
[5857]wasn't planned approachment, contact. There was “type of
[5858]passive work which is called in KGB to watch ‘him and what
[5859]agents, control of correspondénce, and explaining this, I
[5861]simply, I could miss that he was under surveillance.
[5863]is it
[5865]You can return to this and tell me, uh- huh, you told in
[5866]you didn't mention that he was under surveillance. It is not
[5867]a contradiction.
[5869]The Chairman. THe time of the gentleman has expired.
[5871]Mr. Nosenko, in reply to Mr. Sawyer’ s question, you:
[5873]under arrest, that it was.a lump sum payment I suppose?
[5874]Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir. .
[5876]The Chairman. What amount of money was that?
[5878]Mr. Nosenko. Something about, oh, about $80,000.
[5879]the Chairman. About $80,000?
[5881]Mr. Nosenko. Yes.
[5883]The Chairman. Any other sum in addition to that were
[5885]i you paid?
[5887]indicated you were paid for the period of time that you were
[5889]"6
[5891]Mr. Nosenko. I:think I received about $15,000 or $20,000
[5893]TOP SECRET i esti
[5895]t when I started on my own to live, to buy furniture. I received,
[5899]HY 50955
[5903]108
[5905]yes, in the beginning, in '69, in April. But this lump I
[5907]pa:
[5909]received: in '70, '71. ‘71.
[5910]3 | The Chairman. So that the record is clear, you received
[5911]4 1 $80,000 for the period of time’ you were under arrest. |
[5912]3 Mr. Nosenko. Right.
[5913]6 “The Chairman. In order to get started again, you wre
[5914]7 || given an additional $15,000, and that was in’1969.
[5915]8 Mr. Nosenko. Right.
[5916]9 The Chairman. Since 1969, to the present time, you have
[5918]VW Mr. Nosenko. No, no, no, Sir.
[5919]12 | The Chairman. Would you --
[5920]| Mr. Nosenko. They started, when they released me they
[5921]14 | started to pay me in the beginning $16,000. Then they raised
[5922]1s | each year, $2000, two anda half thousand were raises. I only |
[5923]16 | received $35,000 this year, '78, from October of '77, approxi-
[5924]17 | mately. -
[5925]13 | The Chairman. From October '77 to the present: time you
[5927]19 ll received $35,000.
[5928]Mr. Nosenko. Right.
[5929]The Chairman. Can you give us some indication of how man
[5930]| days you have worked during 1978?
[5931]Mr. Nosenko. Well, I am working at home . besides coming
[5932]here when they needme, at least twice a month’cand spending
[5934]a week, approximately, besides traveling : when: they. are _
[5936]ne © eS
[5938]secressetrnes ves sO. SECRET
[5940]fur SEUNE|
[5942]109 \
[5943]1 sending me the last few years abroad to talk with friendly
[5944]—_ 2 intelligence services. I am also working at home on my own.
[5945]3 I am studying Soviet periodicals, Soviet magazines, Soviet
[5946]@: 4 | newspapers. Iam making certain researches, I am trying hot to |
[5948]5 | lose» what is going on, what changes taking place in policy.
[5949]6 The Chairman. Would it be fair to say that you sort of
[5950]7 | set your time and that no one else sets your time?
[5952]3 Mr. Nosenko. When I am out of this area, yes, at home,
[5953]| I am myself setting time.
[5955]10 | The Chairman. And during the last year, how many weeks
[5957]| would you say you have spent here at the Agency?
[5959]12 Mr. Nosenko. Not at the Agency. They are meeting me in
[5961]e 13 l other places. I am very rare visiting this place, only if they
[5962]a id ! invite me for a lecture or about KGB counterintelligence. But
[5964]1s lz am meeting them when I am in this area; under certain
[5966]1g | conditions, in certain places whexe they need me.
[5968]| Well, one month; twice I am coming. Let's say I am
[5970]13 | spending about 12, 13 days a month here, it can be in some
[5972]19 | cases seven, eight days a month, but in main the last period
[5974]99 | cf time I am coming, the last years, I am coming almost
[5975]3] twice a month.
[5976]29 | The Chairman. For how long?
[5978]Mr. Nosenko. For a week, five, six days.
[5980]f a
[5983]2 n
[5984]a Pe
[5985]oe
[5987]Mr. Preyer?
[5989]The Chairamn. My time has expired. .
[5990]'
[5991]4
[5993]HW 50955 Doeld: 32277203 Page 86 . TGP ScGRET
[5995]UP SeUHET
[5997]L110
[5999]- 2 ja major piece of evidence, and was so considered by the Warren
[6000]3 |}Commission as rebutting any Russian connection with the assassi-
[6001]a 4 nation of Lee Harvey Oswald, and I think the key part of your
[6003]5 |jtestimony that we are concerned with, not so much the question
[6004]6 about ‘any inconsistencies in it, but are you right on the big
[6005]7 |lquestion, namely, was Lee Harvey Oswald a KGB agent?
[6006]8 I want to mention, I have been a little surprised by your
[6007]testimony, bythe gaps in your knowledge of Oswald, and really
[6009]how little you knew about him. For example, when he went to
[6011]iy Minsk, he was tranferred out of your oversight, I take it, and
[6013]12 |as I understood you, you did not know he was married until
[6015]eS 13 later on, and did not know he had gone back to the United
[6016]. ' ;
[6017]if yStates.
[6018]15 | Mr. Nosenko. Mr. Congressman, if I was staying and
[6019]i . .
[6020]15 [working '6é0 and '61 period in the same Seventh Department which
[6021]{ .
[6022]7 sent file on Oswald in Minsk, I would iknow, but I was working
[6023]14 Tin First American Department. |
[6024]1g Mr. Preyer. Right. Now, I am not questioning you about.
[6025]99 jjithat. The question I wonder, that that brings to my mind is,
[6026]a ie Oswald-had been a KGB agent, are you certain you would have ©
[6027]39 |known it? In other words, if you didn't even know he was -
[6029]married, didn't even know he had gone to the United States,
[6031]e |
[6033]: 4 i
[6034]. iT
[6036]|
[6038]24 [couldn't he have been a KGB agent in that period without your
[6040]iknowledge, or are you certain --
[6042]: TOP SecReT
[6043]HY 50955 DociId: 32277209 Page 67 te) be
[6045]1 Mr. Preyer. Mr. Nosenko, your testimony™has-been:considere
[6048]| «TGR SENET
[6052]Mr. Nosenko. ‘No; I couldn't,- you are absolutely right, I
[6054]o., 2 . . ; . . ; ; oo
[6056]. { couldn't ‘know. But in-'63 when happened assassination of
[6057]3 the President, when it was mentioned that Oswald shot the
[6058]@: 4 | President, when it start, demanded the file back from Minsk,
[6059]3 when started conversation with Minsk, started in KGB. investi-
[6060]46 gation, detailed approach. “this is what --
[6061]? Mr. Preyer.’. So you convincea that seeing the first sectio --
[6062]a Mr. Nosenko. Seeing the first section in which the most
[6063]| important material in the whole file will be this in first
[6064]10 section of the first volume. | SO as
[6065]| , Mr. Preyer. Wexe the rest of the sections of. that file,
[6066]7! incidentally, wire -- telephone taps?
[6067]ee. JOG _ Mr. Nosenko. It will be information from agents in
[6068]~ 4 | secona part. In third part’ will be from telephone conversa-
[6069]1s] tions, from survedtiance. In fourth part, photocopies of mereenes
[6070]| oo
[6072]16 | different mail, when they checking Soviet connections, Soviet
[6073]17 | tetenas of Oswald. | - |
[6075]Mx. Preyer. “Well, on this question of your knowledge |
[6077]13
[6078]19 Oswald and being in position to know about him, you knew sole
[6080]20 | the cablegram from Mexico yet you did not ‘know he had gone back
[6081]21 | to the United States. Is that because you had moved too-- |
[6082]2 |
[6084]®@ . vat Mr. WNosenko. Again, I returned in Seventh Department
[6085], La I was working '62, '63, up to '64 in Seventh Department
[6086]24 | and the cablegram has come in Seventh Department. Seventh ”
[6088]Department was started against Oswald in "59,
[6090]son smut oem «=o POP SECRET
[6092]1UP Sebel
[6094]12.
[6095]i Mr. Preyer. Have you read a lot about the Oswald case
[6096]on 2 | in recent years? .
[6097]3 Mr. Nosenko. Well, I read several books, what appeared.
[6098]©. 4 I only didn't read the last book which was written about Marina
[6099]- 5 | Oswald by Mrs. Priscilla Johnson. Why? Because I knew
[6100]6 that I would appear here, that the staff of your. -- your
[6101]7 | staff will be talking with me. TI didn't wanted something to
[6102]g | get -- I can, you know, mix what I knew and something to use
[6103]| what I got from the book.
[6104]10 Mr. Preyer. I just wondered if you had read about the
[6105]" Mexican cable, and perhaps through the: years may have been --
[6106]12 Mr. Nosenko. No, I never have seen that it was mentioned
[6107]& , 13 | Mexican cable. TI have seen that he visited Mexico, in Mexico |
[6108]an 14 | visited Soviet and Cuban embassies. This I have seen in books,
[6109]ig | this fact. ;
[6111]16 | Mr. Preyer. If I have got one more moment, Mr. Chairman,
[6112]7 to change the subject, one of the things that struck me is
[6113]a that when you defected, as Mrs. Burke mentioned, in Geneva,
[6114]1g | in 1964, very shortly after the Kennedy Assassination, I get |
[6115]20 the impression that the CIA or American forces to whom you |
[6117]defected, did not have much to say about the assassination or
[6119]Mr. Nosenko. They are -- I mentioned must be Oswald, the |
[6121]24 | asked. But they were asking different, whatever cases I can
[6123]Ww
[6126]z
[6127]oO
[6128]QO;
[6129]oe
[6131]as
[6132]oO
[6134]Ke
[6136]Be
[6139]ct
[6140]7
[6141]@ .
[6142]S
[6143]3
[6144]o
[6145]=)
[6146]oO
[6147]n
[6150]oO
[6151]3
[6152]5
[6154]ie]
[6155]K
[6156]c
[6158]cr;
[6159]oO.
[6161]i
[6163]n
[6164]ue)
[6165]ie)
[6166]Ww
[6167]| od
[6168]c
[6171]pe
[6173]i] y : :: ee
[6174]HW O50955 Docld:322772095 Page 69 TOP SEG ee
[6177]6
[6179]7
[6181]-to take this type of information. They asked me about Oswald.
[6183](UP SECRET | 13
[6185]’ i
[6187]from what country, this they were interested, as much as possible
[6189]T told.them what I knew.
[6190]The Chairman The ;time of the gentleman has expired.
[6191]Mr. Devine.
[6193]Mr. Devine. I don't want to know where you live, but
[6195]do you reside in the general area of the nation's capital?
[6196]Mr. Nosenko. I was living in this area up to 19 -- middle
[6198]of 1973, but FBI gentlemen -- I didn't mention , I also meeting}
[6200]FBI people when I am here, not only CIA, but they are not paying .
[6201]mesanything. FBI people inform me that they have information
[6203]that KGB trying to locate me. Then it happened in the area
[6205]where I was Living in Maryland up to 1973, I was ina
[6207]shopping center, and on me was coming a Soviet from KGB. [I kne
[6209]his face, and this whole -- I immediately reported this and
[6211]we decided that for me better to move from the area where
[6213]are freely traveling and can spot me.
[6215]Mr. Devine. That person didn't recognize you?
[6217]Mr. Nosenko. I immediately turned and went, turned my bac
[6218]and went in another direction.
[6220]Mr. Devine. Have you been contacted or in touch with
[6221]anyone from the Soviet Embassy here in Washignton?
[6223]Mr. Nosenko. Only in 1964, the Soviet Embassy in
[6225]“Washihgteon: demanded to see me after defection.:
[6227]Soviet diplomats, KGB officer working under cover of diplomats
[6229]|
[6231]|
[6233]q
[6235]50955 Docld: 32277209 Page 90 . TOP ‘SECRET
[6237]HY 50955
[6239]16
[6241]UW
[6243]13
[6247]16 1
[6249]V7
[6251]18
[6253]19
[6257]‘114
[6258]| Mr. Devine. Did you see them?
[6259]|
[6261]Mr. Nosenko. Yes, in the State Department, in presence
[6262]of American diplomats, I have seen for five, say seven
[6263]minutes, Consul from Soviet Embassy and interpreter, another
[6265]‘diplomat.
[6267]Mr. Devine. What did they want with you?
[6268]Mr. Nosenko. - They ask me how could I do it, and do I
[6270]understand the importance of this thing, that I defected from
[6272]question, it is absolutely my own decision, and decision of fre
[6273]will, which T made long ago, and without any return. Then they
[6275]‘told me now we know how to treat you, and’ what do you ehitik
[6277]about your Soviet citizenship.
[6280]| I said, it's automatically, :I am rejecting its I
[6282]‘ynot need. And on this I finished conversation.
[6284]the country, and I said, gentlemen, nobody’ pushed me on this =
[6286]Mr. Devine. They made no threats of reprisals against
[6288]your family back there?
[6290](
[6292]|
[6293]|
[6294]i
[6295]i
[6297]if
[6298]|
[6299]|
[6301]Mr. Nosenko. No, no. They later only, Mr. Congressman,
[6303]jthey later sent two letters, one from wife and another from
[6304]lay mother. These letters were delivered by them. They visit
[6305]|
[6307]American embassy in Moscow and had left these two letters.
[6309]These letters were sent by American embassy in Moscow to
[6311]: . . {
[6312]State Department, State Department had given to CIA, CIA had
[6314]given me these letters. I answered one short note that my
[6316]|decision is final, decision ideological and in spite of all
[6318]|
[6320]|
[6323]secretes rae. «TOP SECRET an
[6327]The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired.
[6329]4
[6331]Mrs. Burke.
[6333]Mrs. Burke. I have just a few random questions. You
[6335]f
[6337]i
[6338]1 || my love to the family, and in spite of my respect to the |
[6339]i 2 memory of the father, I can repeat that if he was alive I would
[6340]- 3 | also would do the same, that is all. |
[6341]a 4 Mr. Devine. Getting back to one of Mr. Stoke's questions |
[6342]- 5 | about the amount of money paid to you for your years of
[6343]6 incarceration, the fact that they gave you $15,000 or $20,000
[6344]; which you used for furniture and so forth, were there any
[6345]3 | strings tied to either of those funds, the $80,000 or the subse
[6346]7 quent amount?
[6347]vi Mr. Nosenko. No, sir, no.
[6348]" Mr. Devine. That you would not contact the pressor
[6349]12 || anybody else about this?
[6350]ge 12 | Mr. Nosenko. No, it never was mentioned, never.
[6351]_ | . | :
[6352]Soe” a | Mr. Devine. No strings attached?
[6353]isl Mr. Nosenko. No. -
[6354]te | Mr. Devine. Finally, do you have any knowledge of any.
[6355]| connection with Oswald and the assassination of President
[6356]13 | Kennedy?
[6357]19 Mr. Nosenko. — No, sir.
[6358]20 Mr. Devine. From your connections in the KGB at that time .
[6359]a | Mr. Nosenko. Whatever I said, nothing more. I do not
[6360]| know anything.
[6361]|
[6362]iP i
[6363]|
[6364]|
[6365]|
[6366]|
[6368]sms vocasine vm oe TOP SECRET 7
[6370]HY 50955 Docld: 32277209 Page 93
[6372]12
[6374]13
[6376]14
[6378]# and published an article and put even a picture. And surely
[6380]1UP SEGHET one:
[6382]i
[6383]mentioned Priscilla Johnson's book.i.:Did. you by. any. chance
[6384]while you were working in the American tourist area,. did you
[6385]have any occasion to investigate her coming to Russia or did
[6387]she come during any of that time as a student?
[6389]Mr. Nosenko. Priscilla Johnson?
[6391]Mrs. Burke. Yes.
[6393]Mr. Nosenko. Why, yes, her name, she was a correspondent
[6394]in Moscow working, and KGB didn't like her dispatches and they
[6395]made very, very rude operations against her. They --
[6397]Mrs. Burke. What did they do.
[6399]Mr. Nosenko. Hih?
[6401]Mrs. Burke. What did they do to her?
[6403]Mr. Nosenko. Well, they wanted to get rid of her from the |
[6404]Soviet Union. They didn't see possibility to recruit her. mel
[6405]didn't see any possibility to find or to create compromising
[6406]situation. They didn't like her dispatches which they were
[6408]anti-Soviet. Then they decided to get rid of her, and they
[6410]made such an operation in restaurant where she had dinner in
[6411]evening. They put drugs in her liquor, which she was —
[6412]wine: or vodka or whatever it would be, and she was absolutely
[6414]drunk. And she was delivered in local regional, one of _
[6415]“regional little -~ it's not clinic, it is where they deliver |
[6416]. : : t
[6417]drunks to spend night. And they put her there and made photo :
[6419]pictures of her being drunk and other women drunk laying there
[6421]TOP SECRET
[6423]10
[6424]J
[6426]12
[6427]@. 13
[6429]745
[6430]16
[6432]17
[6434]esos vatasinos nen TOP SECRET a
[6436]sU? SECRET 7 17
[6438]she was immediately recalled by her agency or her newspapers fo
[6439]which she was working.
[6441]Mrs. Burke. Do you think that is the wrong Priscilla -
[6442]Johnson? |
[6444]“Mr. Edgar. If the gentlewoman would yield, are you sure
[6445]that you are talking about the sames person?
[6447]Mr. Nosenko. Priscilla Johnson, yes, this correspondent,
[6448]yes.
[6450]Mrs.Burke. Let me ask you one other question.
[6452]When she was there, did she interview Oswald?
[6454]Mr. Nosenko. I know it is now reading here the books. I
[6455]didn't know that she interviewed. I only found qit it with
[6456]living in the United States, with reading books.
[6458]Mrs. Burke. That she interviewed him. That aian't show
[6459]in your file?
[6461]Mr. Nosenko. I didn't read her book -~ this is what in
[6462]some other books mentioned that shé had interviewed him.
[6464]“Mrs. Burke. Let me- ask again about Oswald in Minsk, and
[6465]first of all, can American tourists go to Minsk easily?
[6467]ur. Nosenko. Minsk is open city, yes. °
[6469]Mrs. Burke. ‘It is an open city now. Was it an open
[6471]city then?
[6473]Mr. Nosenko. Yes.
[6474]Mrs. Burke. And when he was there, of course, I realize
[6476]that you don't know and you did not keep up with what he was
[6479](OP SECRET | ie
[6481]1 | doing there, but in reading that file, in the first few
[6482]—_ 3 pages or anything, did you notice ‘anything in terms of his
[6483]- 3 | contacts with Americans, or did you notice anything at all
[6484]@. 4 | that was extrardoinary about him?
[6485]- 5 Mr. Nosenko. No, there wasn't. For the whole his period
[6486]6 j}of time there wasn't found any» indication on suspicion,
[6487]7 || Suspicious meetings or anything suspicion concerning his contacts
[6488]g | with Americans.
[6489]9 | Mrs. Burke. Let me -- As I understand it, it was fairly
[6490]10 | routine that everyone's phone would be tapped, so that that
[6492]7 ll was not --
[6493]12 | Mr. Nosenko. Yes.
[6494]@ 3 | Mrs. Burke. -- your information that that would be
[6495]i 4 | nothing unusual.
[6496]“1g | You know, there is one thing that is bothering me, and
[6497]16 | that is the inconsistency and the greater detail that is presen
[6498]V7 today than in your earlier statements.
[6499]12 Could you give.us an explanation of why there is more de-
[6500]4 tail today?
[6501]20 For instance, in your earlier statements I noticed you
[6502]31 refer to the interpreter as a tourist, the tourist guide, as.
[6503]on just.a tourist guide or an interpreter? Today you referred
[6507]iby name to that person. And again, the two psychiatrists --
[6509]-
[6510]Me net
[6512]Mr. Nosenko. I don't know. even now name of this inter-
[6514]ipreter. I do not remember name.
[6517]t
[6519]t
[6521]t
[6522]1
[6524]‘TOP SEC
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[6527]RD
[6530](ET
[6532]on
[6534]HY 50955 DoctId:
[6536]119
[6537]1 Mrs. Burke. I see. I thought --
[6538]24° _Mr. Nosenko. Interpreter, I never mentioned. .
[6539]3 | Mrs. Burke. You never mentioned the interpreter?
[6540]4 | Mr. Nosenko. No. I go not remember her name.
[6541]5 Mrs. Burke. It was just this officer Rastrusin?
[6542]6 Mr. Nosenko. Officer, yes.
[6543]7 Mrs. Burke. He was ~- but he was the one that found --
[6544]3 wasn't he the one that found Oswald?
[6545]- | Mr. Nosenko. No, this is the officer who reported about
[6546]10 ain. |
[6547]a Mrs. Burke. He reported it, but he didn't find him?
[6548]2 Mr. Nosenko. No, no, interpreter found him with
[6549]3 [pseinistsation of the hotel where Oswald was staying.
[6550]14 Mrs. Burke. oh, I see.
[6551]st Mr. Nosenko. You see, interpreter has come in the -
[6552]“6 morning to take him or has come to take him to city, to show |
[6553]- i him, as interpreter on a guide, on a tour. And she was waiting
[6554]13 }about 20, 25, 30 minutes and was concerned.
[6555]9 | _ The Chairman. Time is up. One more.
[6556]| Mrs. Burke. All ; right, just one more question. |
[6557]2
[6558]4 When Oswald arrived, then, he didn't “speak very much |
[6559]29 Russian, is that right? |
[6560]| Mr. Nosenko. No. Ididn't hear that he spoke in Russian. |
[6561]mn Mrs. Burke. I see. Were there any notations at all in “
[6562]ne | ile -- what is your understanding of his fluency in Russian |
[6563]a - | | |
[6564]| |
[6565]32277209 Page 96 TC P SEGRE!
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[6572]W
[6574]12
[6576]ae)
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[6582]Ww
[6583]ta
[6585]a a a
[6587]SE ee ee eS.
[6589]iUP SEUNET er
[6591]during the time of his stay?
[6593]Mr. Nosenko. Well, during time of his stay surely he
[6594]started a Little pit to talk, but it wasn't very, it wasn't
[6595]good Russian. It wasn't even _.
[6597]The Chairman. The time of the gentlewoman has expired.
[6599]Mrs. Burke. Thank you.
[6601]The Chairman... Mr. Dodd.
[6603]Mr. Dodd. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
[6605]E would like to just pick up on that line of questioning,.
[6606]if I could, with you, Mr. Nosenko.
[6608]Correct me-if I am wrong, but as I understand it, Oswald, ©
[6609]you were aware of Oswald's desire to defect. There was a.
[6610]decision, and in fact he was informed through his Intourist
[6611]guide that his request had been rejected.
[6613]Issthatc:correctsso/ far?
[6615]Mr. Nosenko. Is in general, but it wasn't in this ways
[6616]told to him. It was in so-called, you know, soft manner. It
[6617]was explained to him by through Intourist =~
[6619]Mr. bodd. That he would have to go through his embassy?
[6621]Mr. Nosenko. Yes, that Intourist not dealing with this
[6623]question. He must go through ‘this, this, this procedures.
[6625]Mr. Dodd. Okay.
[6626]Now, you, at the time of this, of Oswald's request, you
[6627]were working in the Seventh Department of the Second Directoratd
[6629]which was involved with tourism?
[6631]nme scumnlon oe «=—sSsTOP SECRET
[6633]TOP SeGReT err
[6635]Mr. Dodd. Okay. Could you tell me what would be the
[6636]normal operating procedures within the Soviet Union if a
[6638]tourist were involved, say, in a car accident with an Intourist
[6640]q
[6643]so Say a Frenchman was involved in a car accident. Assuming
[6644]6 | it was not his fault, someone hit him, what happens? Do
[6645]7 || they notify immediately the French Embassy, what steps do they
[6646]g | take in order to deal with that individual?
[6647]9 Mr. Nosenko. I would assume, sir, that he will be,
[6648]10 | Sure, he immediately will be taken inpolyclinic, will be informe
[6649]1 nis embassy.
[6650]2 Mr .oDodd. Those kind of steps.
[6651]@ | , 13 | Mr. Nosenko. Right.
[6652]_ 14 Mr. Dodd. If you had made.a decision that! ‘Oswald should
[6653]yg qnot be accepted in the Soviet Union, and if you find him in
[6655]|
[6656]|
[6657]i
[6658]|
[6659]46 jis room with his wrist slit, why don't you then contact the
[6661]y7 American Embassy and notify them that you have an American on
[6662]1g lyour hands who just tried to kill himself?
[6663]9 Mr. Nosenko. Sir, he wasn't an employee of American
[6664]ape
[6665]a1 Mr. Dodd. He was a tourist, though.
[6666]| Mr.Nosenko. A tourist.
[6667]eo. 44 | Mr. Dodd. And I just ‘asked you about a Frenchman who might
[6668]. ne be a tourist and get in a car accident, a and you said you would
[6671]a6 take him to the hospital, you would notify the embassy. Why
[6675]mbassy. - a |
[6676]|
[6678]|
[6680]|
[6682]cos uaa men TOP SECRET
[6684]TUP SECRET . 122
[6685]don't. you take Mr. Oswald to the hospital and notify the ~
[6687]aa 2 os ‘
[6688]yt American embassy?
[6689]3 _ Mr. Nosenko. Nobody knew that he would cut wrist.
[6691]Mr. Dodd. No, but you found him with his wrist cut.
[6693]Mr. Nosenko. Right. He was delivered in hospital
[6695]Mr. Dodd. Why didn't you notify the American embassy?
[6697]Mr. Nosenko. He wasn't dying, he wasn't serious, they
[6698]made transfusion and put stitches. It is -- I am telling what
[6699]I think why it was.
[6703]Mr. Dodd. You understand my problem here. You have got
[6704]someone who you don't want to accept him. You have already
[6705]12 |
[6707]made a decision that he shouldn't be allowed to defect. You
[6709]| walk into his room and find him with his wrist slit, it would
[6711]e . 13
[6713]14 | seem to me that this guy has already indicated just by that ac
[6714]45 alone that he is not playing with a full deck of cards, and |
[6715]16 you decide then.that you are going to accept him because you
[6716]| | .
[6717]17 are worried that it might cause some embarrassment after Camp
[6718]19 Mr. Nosenko. No. But the question to inform the Embassy,
[6720]it must be passing through such stage. Intourist itself _
[6721]contact the American Embassy.
[6724]|
[6725]i
[6726]|
[6727]|
[6728]|
[6729]13 | David.
[6730]|
[6731]|
[6732]|
[6733]Mr. Dodd. No, obviously.
[6734]i
[6736]Mr. Nosenko. No. They must contact their Minister of
[6738]TN ae
[6740]Foreign Trade which in its turn putting question to Ministry olf
[6742]Foreign Affairs, and Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Soviet
[6744]HW 30955 poura:gzar200 Page 99 | TOP SECRET , “ ,
[6747]|
[6748]|
[6749]t
[6751]j
[6752]|
[6756]4
[6757]|
[6759]t
[6760]t
[6761]|
[6764]i
[6765]HT
[6767]1UP SEGRET
[6769]123
[6771]Union can contact the embassy.
[6773]Mr. Dodd. LEt me jump onto something else quickly in the
[6774]time we've got.
[6776]You knew that Lee Harvey Oswald was a Marine?
[6778]Mr. Nosenko. Yes.
[6780]Mr. bodd. You knew by. your answer to Mrs. Burke's questio
[6781]a minute ago that Oswald had a student's knowledge of Russian?
[6783]Mr. Nosenko. When he was living in Minsk, not before,
[6784]before he has come. No. . .
[6786]Mr. Dodd. You didn't know that?
[6788]Mr. Nosenko. No, when he was living in Minsk, when he
[6790]was in daily contact with Soviets working at the plant and
[6792]|
[6793]having friends. ; ; :
[6794]Mr. Dodd. Did you know that he had been a student of |
[6795]Marxism? |
[6796]Mr. Nosenko. No.
[6797]Mr. Dodd. Did you know that he had given the U.S.
[6798]embassy his notice to defect?
[6799]Mr. Nosenko. No. I know that he visited embassy and |
[6800]|
[6802]after was, he was told that he will be allowed to stay, after
[6804]this.
[6807]Mr. Dodd. You were not aware at that time that he con- j
[6808]5 i-
[6810]|
[6812]tacted through Intourist and eventually your office and made
[6814]were not aware or your department was not aware that he had
[6816]|
[6817]it known that he intended to defect or wanted to defect, you
[6818]1
[6819]|
[6822]‘wr ssss vatasesives veo TOP SECRET |
[6824]HOP SEGRET 7 1a
[6826]already notified the American embassy that he intended to
[6827]defect? |
[6829]Mr. Nosenko.. No, no, no, sir. .
[6831]Mr. Dodd. You were not aware of that.
[6833]Mr. Nosenko. No. He wasn't under surveillance... We
[6834]didn't know. When he was going alone without interpter, we
[6835]didn't know. | |
[6837]Mr. Dodd. I didn't ask you how you know. I just asked
[6838]you whether or not -- he didn't tell you that?
[6840]Mr. Nosenko. No. Nobody from KGB talked with him.»
[6842]The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired.
[6844]“Mr. Sawyer?
[6846]Mr. Sawyer. When Congressman Devine asked you how you
[6850]knew your family was okay or that they hadn't invoked any
[6852]reprisals, I didn't get the answer.
[6853]Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I asked Mr. Solie in '69, '70, once
[6855]I asked, anything about my family?
[6856]Mr. Sawyer. Mr. who? '
[6857]Mr. Nosenko. Mr. Bruce Solie, CIA officer who was in |
[6859]“contact with me, '69, '70. He answered me that they are all
[6861]right, everything okay. But he didn't went in any detail
[6863]and I never returned more to this question. But there is anoefer
[6865]; point, sir. Besides the father's position, after he died, she |
[6867]was receiving, she received pension, and besides that,. for
[6869]the years -- _
[6871]ws sons necicsetrm vein «=—COOP SECRET
[6873](UP ScGReT
[6875]1250
[6876]1 Mr. Sawyer. How did you know she died? — |
[6877]_ 2 Mr. Nosenko. ‘Father died, 1 said. Father died in 1956.
[6878]— 3 After father's death she received a pension. a
[6879]@. 4 . Mr. Sawyer. I understand. You went through that before. |
[6880]- g I noticed here though, when he slashed his wrist, the
[6881]6 psychiatric examination report. here by the doctor says the
[6882]7 patient apparently understands the questions asked in Russian,
[6883]3 SO he must have spoken Russian, you know, to. whatever degree,
[6884]- when he went there. I thought you said you were always
[6885]10 | interested in someone who can speak Russian or has studied
[6886]n | anything Russian.
[6887]12 Mr. Nosenko. Who specializes in any field of Russia, |
[6888]@ 13 || who will be working for the united States government. I
[6889]oO ag Mr. Sawyer. But here is a guy at that time, when he cing
[6891]yg | came there, within a matter of days after, the doctor says the
[6893]16 | patient apparently understands the questions asked in Russian. |
[6895]“4 Mr. Nosenko. In Russian Institute.
[6897]Mr. Sawyer. It says on the report, this was on the 21st |
[6899]or the 23rd or 25th of October, a week after he arrived, it
[6901]VW Mr. Nosenko. Sir --.
[6903]1a | Mr. Sawyer. That would have keyed interest right there,
[6904]19 | wouldn't it?
[6906]| -Mr. Nosenko. Sir, if ve knew that he studied in Columbia |
[6907]na University, in Yale University =—_
[6909]al Mr. Sawyer. Well, it says right --
[6911]ip I 7
[6914]Ww
[6915]ts
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[6919]HGP SeGRET
[6921]126 H
[6923]says the patient apparently understands the questions asked
[6925]in Russian. So you knew he spoke Russian at that time. And yet
[6927])
[6928]F
[6931]3 that was one of your criteria.
[6932]@ % 4 MreiNosenko?t. .Wéll;, sir’ +s.:
[6933]5 Mr. Sawyer. Something else I am a little curious about.
[6935]6 Apparently, coming here, wanting to defect, wanting to leave
[6937]7 America, wanting Russia, here is a guy that if he didn't
[6938]8 know anything would be. ‘apparently capable of going back to the
[6939]9 | United States at the behest of KGB in areas of the country that
[6941]10 Russian diplomats and so forth, KGB people weren't. allowed to g
[6944]Wy and dig up information for. them and come back. Here is a guy
[6947]12 you didn't have to threaten, he volunteers. And it seems strange
[6948]@. 13 | you wouldn't talk to him or be interested in him just from that
[6949]os 14 point of view.
[6950]1s | And how -- and another thing that greatly bothers me,
[6951]i.
[6952]- 16 | how did you know that he, being in the Marines, you knew that,
[6954]7 |) but how did you know he wasn't a cryptographer or how did
[6956]13 you know he wasn't stationed in the Office of the Joint Chiefs
[6957]e
[6959]19 | Of Staff as a guard or as a messenger or a clerk, or that he >
[6961]20 worked with U-2s, which apparently he did. Why would the KGB
[6963]not at least find these things out, with a guy that-wants to
[6965]RD
[6966]so
[6968]go to Russia, wants to be a Russian?
[6969]Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I only can repeat you, when on him was
[6971]. received the first information about his arrival, checkup was
[6973]made on him. There wasn't any existing material in KGB, any
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[6977]mn
[6978]Q oO
[6980]24
[6982]ag
[6984]|
[6985]|
[6986]4
[6988]A
[6989]i
[6991]sms vocasizions aes TOP SECRET
[6993]fUP SeGRcl ere
[6995]knowledge about him. He never. was before in the Soviet Union.
[6996]In judging by the question --
[6997]Mr. sawyer. Why weren't they asking, why wouldn't they
[6998]ask, that's the question. Why wouldn't they ask?
[6999]Mr. Nosenko. They are not --
[7000]Mr. Sawyer. Apparently they knew he could speak Russian.
[7002]‘Mr. Nosenko. -- asking Americans approaching.
[7004]Judging by the questionnaire, they decided, the KGB decide
[7006]Seventh Department, he is not an /interesting target.
[7008]Mr. Sawyer. Well, why would a person like this not even
[7009]be interesting for something like the Tokyo Rose, on some kind
[7010]of propaganda program where he could say how bad things were
[7011]in the United States, and why he didn't want to stay theres
[7012]anymore and how great they were in Russia, like ‘these
[7013]propagandists do?
[7015]| Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I am telling you why it was decided,
[7016]and how KGB was thinking about him. -
[7018]Mr. Sawyer. I yield back the balance of my time.
[7020]The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired.
[7022]Mr. Fithtans.
[7024]Mr. Fithian. Mr. Chairman, I just now got this report.
[7025]I wonder if I could let Mr.Edgar go ahead of me?
[7027]The Chairman. The Chair will recognize Mr. Edgar.
[7029]Mr. Edgar. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
[7031]I have a series of questions which I hope most of which
[7033]oe
[7039]— Qo so Oo “I
[7041]2
[7042]Les)
[7044]|
[7046]ww sooss nacrassssioo0 vase os TOP. SECRET
[7048]man. Tt would seem to. me the KGB would have discovered that
[7050]tUp SeGRET , . 128
[7052]will be yes and no kinds of questions.
[7054]Did you conduct in the KGB a program to compromise and
[7055]recruit journalists?
[7056]Mr. Nosenko. I was working, when I started to work in th
[7058]KGB in 1953, the first year I was working against American
[7060]- correspondents.
[7062]Mr. Edgar. But ‘the KGB, not you personally, but the KGB
[7063]did have a policy of going against journalists and trying to.
[7064]compromise them, yes or no??
[7066]Mr. Nosenko. Trying to recruit or compromise them.
[7068]Mr. Edgar. Did they censor all the journalists' notes
[7069]that they could gather from the journalists? Did they censor
[7070]the notes before they allowed the story to go out?
[7072]Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.
[7074]Mr. Edgar. Priscilla Johnson interviewed Oswald on the
[7075]15th of November, 1959. Would the KGB have looked at her
[7076]notes from that interview?
[7078]Mr. Nosenko. Sir, they -we censored not by the KGB, but
[7079]there is special -- it is government organization was censoring
[7080]this. “Some Materials are coming to the KGB, some are not |
[7081]coming. H
[7083]Mr. Edgar. Well, she reveals in her article that he was a
[7087]Marxist, that Oswald was a Marxist and a Marine Corps radar
[7089]in November of 1959).
[7092]TUP SECRET - as
[7094]Mr. Nosenko. ‘Sir, I didn't know this in those days.
[7095]“Mr. Edgar. Do: you know a_corres¥ondent by. the name...d f
[7096]| ArdenesMosby?? |
[7098]Mr. Nosenko. Yes, I heard such a name, Mosby, a woman
[7099]who was a correspondent. |
[7101]‘Mr. Edgar. In the earlier. questioning of Congresswoman
[7102]Burke, -you were not confusing “Arlene Mosby with the treatment
[7103]f
[7104]of Priscilla Johnson?
[7106]Mr. Nosenko. 4 think ‘it was Priscilla Johnson, the case
[7107]which I described, I think: so. _i think so, it was priscilla
[7108]Johnson.
[7110]Mr. Edgar. How) do you know?
[7112]Mr. Nosenko. What I heard from colleagues who were in
[7113]KGB, who were working against ‘correspondents.
[7114]Mr. Edgar. But you are not absolutely clear?
[7115]‘Mr. Nosenko. And then there was .an article in --
[7116]Mr. Edgar. You are not absolutely --
[7117]. Mr. Nosenko. In Literary newspaper, I think it was, not
[7118]in Pravad, Izvestia; but in Literary Gazette.
[7119]Mr. Edgar. But. you are not absolutely certain?
[7120]Mr. Nosenko. No.: TI. think it was Priscilla JOhnson, as
[7122]I said.
[7124]Mr, Edgar. But|/it could have been someone else.
[7125]Mr. Nosenko. An American correspondent, woman .- -
[7127]Mr. Edgar. Are you certain that after 1967 you sat down
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[7155]with the CIA and corrected your earlier statements about Oswald,
[7156]yes or no?
[7158]Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.
[7160]Mr. Edgar. We have only a few pages of written testimony,
[7161]some three pages that you gave, and in fact, in the beginning
[7162]part of that testimony, you indicate that you don't want to go -:
[7163]through it again because your earlier testimony will stand for,
[7164]itself. I am paraphrasing what you said.
[7166]Were the notes and the recordsings of those corrections
[7167]made and kept by the CIA?
[7169]Mr. NOsenko. Sir, Mr. Bruce Solie talking with me every day
[7170]for a period from the end of '67, the whole '68, 1968, '69, every
[7171]conversation he was recording. But he never has come and showed
[7172]his notes, transcriptions or anything. He was returning to
[7173]every case, to every aspect by 20, 25, 30 times.
[7175]Mr. Edgar. But specifically on the Oswald case, would it
[7176]be correct in our assuming that it was more than three pages of
[7177]notes on specifically Lee Harvey Oswald after 1967?
[7179]Mr. Nosenko. If he was raising questions concerning also
[7180]Lee Harvey Oswald.
[7182]MR. Edgar. We have some information that Bruce Solie --
[7184]Mr. Nosenko. Yes, Mr. Solie.
[7186]Mr. Edgar. Stated in a deposition that there is nothing on
[7188]Oswald other than the three pages.
[7190]Mr. Nosenko. I cannot ay how many pages. I know
[7191]i m uk aoa 8 a8 Hy ,
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[7249]that he was passing through all cases, all questions, with me
[7250]for the period almost two years.
[7252]Mr. Edgar. Who other than Bruce Solie did you talk to about
[7253]correcting your earlier statements?
[7255]Mr. Nosenko. I wasn't correcting them. They were correcting
[7256]they were talking returning back to every case.
[7258]Mr. Edgar. One final question.
[7260]Mr. Nosenko. And also besides Mr. Solie, were people coming
[7261]from FBI with cases in which were: interested for them.
[7263]Mr. Edgar. One final question. You stopped our hearing
[7264]about an hour ago and were concerned about our playing the tape
[7265]andbringing up old memories, and I respect the fact that you are
[7266]very patriotic in coming before this Committee and helping us.
[7268]Would you be willing to sit down with our staff and go
[7269]through a series of written questions which outline specifically
[7270]for you the contradictions of your 1964, '65, '66 and early ‘67
[7271]timeframe, with the statements that you made, in '67, '68 and
[7272]'78, and indicate in a yes-no manner which statement, laid side
[7273]by side, is true and which statement is false?
[7275]Mr. Nosenko. If it is the wish of the Committee, sure..
[7277]Mr. Edgar. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. |
[7279]The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired.
[7281]Mr. Fithian?
[7283]Mr. Fithian. Mr. Nosenko, do you remember when it was that
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[7322]Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I. do not remember dates, but --
[7323]Mr. Fithian. It was between February and April?
[7324]Mr. Nosenko. Right, right.
[7326]Mr. Fithian. The information we have is that it was early
[7328]March, the first week in March. Is that about right?
[7330]Now Haver:you talked to the FBI about that testimony at any
[7331]time since then?
[7332]Mr. Nosenko.
[7334]Gentlemen, on many, many times I have seen
[7336]FBI, many, many questions raised. I cannot -- about this testi-
[7338]mony, no, no.
[7340]Mr. Fithian. About the Oswald testimony?
[7342]Mr. Nosenko. ' About Oswald were asked questions, but not about
[7343]this testimony . I do not remember about this testimony.
[7344]Mr. Fithian. My question is, there is a written transcript ©
[7345]summary of your testimony to the FBI taken on March 5th, 1964.
[7347]Mr. Nosenko. Right.
[7348]Mr. Fithian.. My guestion is, have you at any time since
[7349]then visisted with the FBI about this testimony?
[7351]Mr. Nosenko.. No, sir, no, sir.
[7353]Now, next, when -- what is your understanding
[7355]Mr. Fithian.
[7356]as to when Oswald first offered to defect, when you first knew,
[7357]when the KGB first knew he was interested in defecting?
[7359]Mr. Nosenko. I cannot give you a date.
[7360]Mr. Fithian. All right.
[7362]Well, he filled out an application --
[7364]Tas SEGAk
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[7370]1 Mr. Nosenko. No, no, no application, in oral form. He
[7371]2 | told the interpreter in oral form.
[7373]3 Mr. Fithian. This was the Intourist?
[7375]@ 4 Mr. Nosenko. Interpreter of the Intourist.
[7376]5 Mr. Fithian. And then the Intourist came to the KGB?
[7377]6 Mr. Nosenko. Right, and it immediately was informed to KGB
[7379]7 | that this American applies, wants to stay, said to interpreter.
[7380]8 Mr. Fithian. And then you reviewed the file?
[7381]9 Mr. Nosenko. It was several pieces of pages what we had on
[7383]10 him. It wasn't even file.
[7385]VW Mr. Fithian. But you reviewed whatever applications --
[7387]12 Mr. Nosenko. Right. No it wasn't application to stay. He i
[7388]13 oral form told the interpreter that he wants to stay Soviet
[7390]14 | Union.
[7392]15 Mr. Fithian. You reviewed the pages that he had filled out
[7393]16 | for the visa and any other sheets that you had?
[7395]17 . Mr. Nosenko. He didn't -- yes, these documents, yes, for
[7397]18 | the visa, questionnaire and -~
[7399]19 Mr. Fithian. Yes. . What I am trying to get at is what did
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[7403]20 you have in front of you physically, knowledgeably about Oswald?
[7405]21 Mr. NOsenko. What I remember, it was it was several pages
[7406]& 22 only; was questionnaire, was form of document from Intourist
[7407]23 received how long his tour and how many days. There was checks ~
[7409]24 of Oswald in archives of KGB to forms. There was information from
[7411]25/| tntourist who Work apel eh
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[7455]Mr. Fithian. All right. Let me just stop you here,
[7457]Mr. Nosenko. Yes.
[7459]Mr. Fithian. The forms in there by the KGB were filled out
[7460]based on what information?
[7462]Mr. Nosenko. On his name, what he supplied, who he is, when
[7463]he was asking visa.
[7465]Mr. Fithian. But they conducted no check, no search?
[7467]Mr. Nosenko. It is in the archives of KGB, if he ever was
[7468]in Soviet Union, on him there will be something. If he wasn't in
[7469]Soviet Union but he was known to intelligence service --
[7471]Mr. Fithian. But you didn't have any record on that.
[7473]Mr. Nosenko. Nothing.
[7475]Mr. Fithian. And so the final question is that the only
[7476]thing that you had to judge -that he was an uninteresting subject
[7477]was what he had told the Intourist guide?
[7479]Mr. Nosenko. Right.
[7481]Mr. Fithian. That is the only substantive thing?
[7483]Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir, and his questionnaire for who he
[7485]-is, his name, whatever he filled about himself. . That's all.
[7487]The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired.
[7489]The Chair has one additional request from one member, for
[7490]one additional question.
[7492]Mr. Sawyer?
[7494]Mr. Sawyer. I just have one additional question, and that is
[7496]the $80,000 you got for compensation and’ the $15,000 or $20,000
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[7534]you got Later, that was net vee after whatever taxes or whatever
[7535]it was. --
[7537]Mr. Nosenko. Yes, after all taxes were taken.
[7539]Mr. Sawyer. Thank you.
[7541]Mr. Dodd. Mr. Chairman?
[7543]The Chairman. Mr. Dodd?
[7545]Mr. Dodd. I just wondered for the record, I wondered if,
[7546]Mr. Nosenko, you could tell us when you arrived in this country on
[7547]February l2th, 1964, hetween February i2th, 1964 and April 4th,
[7548]1964, where were you in this country? |
[7550]Mr. Nosenko. February 12 of 1964 and April ath, I was staying
[7551]in house in Virginia. I do not know address.
[7553]Mr. Dodd. Did you go -- did you travel at all?
[7555]Mr. Nosenko. No, sir.
[7557]Mr. Dodd. No vacation? . oot,
[7559]Mr. Nosenko. Oh, I went in March on week to Hawaii.I was.
[7561]Mr. Dodd. Were you on your own?
[7563]Mr. Nosenko. No, no, no, with guards.
[7565]Mr. Dodd. It was a relaxed period for you and just a chance
[7566]to rest?
[7568]Mr. Nosenko. Chance to get a little bit rest.
[7570]| Mr. Dodd. Is it your knowledge that this is the normal way
[7572]Mr.
[7574]HY 50955 Docld: 32277209
[7576]that defectors are treated when they come to this country?
[7578]Mr. Nosenko. I do not know.
[7580]Dodd. Just one last point, Mr. / Chairman, and that is
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[7617]with regard to the American exhibit, as a result of a statement by
[7618]Mr. Klein which I understand you did not disagree with, the American
[7620]exhibit ended on Sepgember 4th, 1959? That's when the termination
[7622]of the exhibit was?
[7624]Mr. Nosenko. Yes, he showed’ me an: article.
[7626]Mr. Dodd. Is it your knowledge that employees that worked
[7627]during the exhibit stayed on for a period of time after that?
[7629]Mr. Nosenko. Sure, to it will be disassembled, this is the
[7630]whole process is going on. It is closed for visitors to visit,
[7631]to look.
[7633]Mr. Dodd. How long a period would that have been, a week?
[7635]Mr. Nosenko. No, more.
[7637]Mr.:Dodd. More?
[7639]Mr. Nosenko. More, sure.
[7641]Mr Doddi . Thank you, Mr.Chairman.
[7643]The Chairman. Mr. Nosenko, with reference to your earlier
[7644]comments this evening regarding what transpired during your
[7645]period of isolation, which you described as extreme spartan
[7646]conditions, I would like to make this request of you. I think the
[7647]record ought to in a very graphic way portray those conditions
[7648]under which you were subjected during that period of time, and
[7649]while you are complying with Mr. Edgar's request and working with
[7650]the staff in terms of the contradictory data, would you also agree
[7651]to work with the staff in terms of seeing that the record has a
[7653]complete and accurate description --
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[7687]Mr. Nosenko.
[7689]The Chairman. --of all the conditions which you:'underwent:*
[7690]during that period? .
[7692]Mr. Nosenko. yes, sir.
[7694]The Chairman. Thank..you.
[7696]Did you have.some?:.:
[7698]Mr. Cornwell. Following up on the question that Congressma
[7699]Dodd just asked you, the staff, in an attempt to-determine how lon
[7700]it took to disassemble the exhibition, checked with a knowledge-
[7701]able employee who was involved in that process in the State.
[7702]Department and were informed by that person that the exhibition
[7703]was disassembled and the persons who were operating it had
[7704]left by October the 4th, approximately 30 days after the
[7705]exhibition was terminated.
[7707]Would you disagree with that information?
[7709]Mr. Nosenko. No, sir, I cannot disagree. I do not remember.
[7710]I do not know, even, when they left, no, sir.
[7712]Mr. Cornwell. That is all I have.
[7714]The Chairman. Anything further from the Committee?
[7716]Now, Mr. Devine, do you have anything?
[7718]Mr. Devine. No. He is under continuing subpoena. '
[7720]The Chairman. Under the rules of the Committee, Mr. Nosenko,
[7721]any witness appearing before our Committee is entitled at the
[7722]conclusion of his testimony to address the Committee for a
[7724]period of five minutes for the purpose of clarifying anything
[7726]ans)
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[7770]for the record or making any statement he so desires, and I want
[7771]to at this time afford you that five minute period to make such a
[7772]statement, if you so desire.
[7774]Mr. Nosenko. Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, I consider
[7775]my appearance, invitation to appear at Committee, as I told also
[7776]the same applies before, my meetings with the staff of the Commit-
[7777]tee, I consider it honor, gredtihonor for me. I will try to
[7778]answer whatever: ‘I remember, whatever I know as only truth, and
[7779]but the truth. And you would like to see me-appear at any time,
[7780]Iam at your disposal and I will try to give you the only things
[7781]what I know.
[7783]The Chairman. Thank you.
[7785]That is the completion of your statement, sir?
[7787]Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.
[7789]The Chairman. Mr. Nosenko, on behalf of the Committee and
[7790]the United States Congress, I want to express our appreciation to
[7791]you for having appeared here and having given this Committee the
[7792]benefit of your testimony. At this time I would remind you of
[7793]the terms of your agreement to work with our staff and provide
[7794]further information to the Committee, that you will continue
[7795]under the cath administered to you by this Committee.
[7797]Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.
[7799]The Chairman. Thank you very much for your appearance
[7800]here.
[7802]Mr. Nosenko. Thank you, sir.
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[7854]The Chairman. You are excused.
[7856]At this time, there being no. further business to come
[7857]before the Committee, the meeting is adjourned subject to the
[7858]call of the Chair.
[7860](Whereupon, at 10:17 o'clock p.m., the Committee was
[7862]adjourned subject to the call of the Chair.)
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