reza bfar ebuilt rbfarebuiltcom original message forkadminxentcom mailtoforkadminxentcomon behalf robert harley sent monday september 02 2002 255 forkspamassassintaintorg subject java kiddies reza bfar wrote thread kind surprises started coding c c moved java think robert harley wrote looks like case experience comprehensive anecdotal dont know theyre talking well sure dont claim think people fork probably programming knowledge theres lots experience reza bfar wrote 1 people pay wages dont give flyin heck programming language write things want work robert harley wrote experience care work certainly particular work theyve already got work clients systems limited experience java started years ago support linux terrible ran away screaming havent come back yet well think recently support things linux kind shady things got much better youre right jdk used suck linux imho linux still maturing least development tools linux maturing ive developing server side apps run linux recently jdk 13x theyve problems great performance robert harley worte microsoft announced plan remove java windows took xp already installed service pack somehow cant imagine removing ability run c programs hmmm really think ms pulling java bad programming language application platform dont think anything net competitor java ms basically copied java additional features called c isnt alone indication actually think vm right way go high level applications reza bfar wrote 2 c c forces developer solve problems memory management robert harley wrote cant say spend noticeable amount time memory management issues apart fact frequently need 4 gb hmmm youre telling youve never nasty bug took couple days track memory leak best cc programmer even close ive known really good ones even nasty bugs memory management however occasional may design patterns architecture high level stuff robert harley wrote problem requires application design pattern solve trivial anyway irrespective language wow youre telling unless application involves bitcounting trivial application high level problems task distribution workflow etc arent high level problems solved high level solutions like design patterns solve high level problems writing optimal cc code example think people working collaboration frameworks lots list working writing operating system assembly provides collaborative environment amazed amount time wasted people talking low level problems solved 10 million times robert harley wrote appear gratuitously asserting c programmers waste time irrelevant lowlevel problems java programmers dont depends entirely programmer language see could infer however believe really case java one best languages writing large applications many components involves collaboration three programmers cases always hard get programmers agree apis memory management techniques etc java jcp takes care discussions dont sit around long meeting trying decide api use hook database jdbc messaging bus jms 3 java programming language also platform robert harley wrote buzzword yikes written db code cc different databases example tried porting persistence layer windows unix say informix running solaris want port windows ms sql bad ideabut sake example would rather deal jdbc port cc port uses informix drivers use odbc monolithic set apis crap load different apis slicing dicing problems 50 different ways robert harley wrote unsupported assertion saying standard set apis cc everything aside minimal ansi stuff standard way dealing cc applications various domain problems messaging database persistence etc rivals java id like know one accepted everyone writes cc case claim ignorance suggesting java golden hammer cc overkill things even coded vb vb true disgrace programming lame java object oriented flamemail antioo people please religious discussion relatively clean dont think every kid write well designed java program kids typically dont understand various design patterns principles experience actually tend think low level problems wanting rewrite reinvent world tendency much possible imho cc java due existence standard apis mon 2 sep 2002 114836 0700 java kiddies