david c rankin vhdicqcdjjosuddenlinkmailcom list per continuing guest causing ever present random instability 103 install gigabyte n700sl board captured following processes system rendered useless appears cron gone mad funcky cron jobs best guess cron went south result hardware instability related gigabyte mb installed memory power supply fresh changed instability continues instability present box mandrake 2005 server exact instability remains 103 nothing fancy simple dm1 dm2 2 250g seagate md raid 1 dvd drive old ati xpert 2000 card text mode machine 20g maxtor sda holds swap found running machine went south today vngatrinity ssh xlicqbonza last login sat feb 9 232043 2008 mail3111skylinecom lot fun 1245 bonza ps ax pid tty stat time command 1 ss 001 init 6 2 000 kthreadd 3 000 migration0 4 sn 001 ksoftirqd0 5 007 events0 6 000 khelper 25 r 000 kblockd0 26 000 kacpid 27 000 kacpi_notify 148 000 cqueue0 149 000 kseriod 172 000 pdflush 175 000 aio0 402 000 kpsmoused 412 000 kondemand0 459 002 ata0 460 000 ata_aux 462 000 scsi_eh_0 463 004 scsi_eh_1 467 000 scsi_eh_2 468 000 scsi_eh_3 489 000 ksnapd 627 000 ksuspend_usbd 628 000 khubd 1067 008 kmirrord 1068 000 kcopyd 1122 003 kjournald 1179 sfrom mwbfbflsantronicscom sun feb 24 102739 2008 message 10 date sat 09 feb 2008 055020 0500 hector santos subject ietfdkim ignoring ssp failure scenarios harmful gfkyhddlmipassocorg messageid 47ad856c80905santronicscom contenttype textplain charsetiso88591 formatflowed john levine wrote seems presuppose owner author domain doesnt control signing practices means author domain control perfect control signing practices always paths break ssp eg mailanarticle roaming users sending hotel mtas mailing lists forwarders replace sender lines know making erroneous presumption may desirable segment domain market place id like understand get noticeable chunk weve running dkim signing almost 2 years even diverse mail use patterns average megacorp still get 99 verification rates im sure average megacorp cisco ill bet cisco users send way less html mail businesses example 1 problem designing protocol based mime anyones guesstimates numbers protocol flawed right box lists like one mutate headers ways break signatures candidates strong policies getting real benefit domain know wishes continue allow domain used open unknown highly exploitable manners cant expect safe abuse established long ago gather may kludge patch dont think expect everyone else exactly reaffirms fact anyone going operate relaxed exploitable manner expect much benefit wish deny domains view vast number domains opportunity get high degree benefit dkimstrong policy modes operation asp model lowers incentive support dkim inherent default policy domain abuse ignorance mantra look back steves previous messages domains bad advice makes isp drop mail users want users blame isp ssp record sort stuff commonly happens today ways fact perfectly valid feedback support process rectify situation whatever takes certainly dma market right business users vendoruser relationship canspam established valid relationship dma market expects raise bar standard smtp transactions marking spam dkim signatures expects highlighted messages help get foot door also realized making mail special also comes special scrutiny well cant ways dac vbrinfo advice going help tell us far good however dma market wishes really help tell receivers new form spam dkim signatures help keep reputation harm lower exposing idea received unsigned messages purported good rejected winners sure send spam spam spam others would make reasonable isp rather gunshy believing advice random ssp records seems denial quickly involving fact dkim becoming dubious asp model imagine high_value_domaincom paying member dac told dac sign mail dkim importantly add vbrinfo header bad guys see say hmmmmm better stay away dkim vbrinfo see happens receivers get high_value_domaincom messages dkim signature policy information one required one ask harmed receivers abused system domains increased reputation harm sending bad mail end users may phishing victims whats answer reasonable answer see ssp02asp dkimdiscardable ssp01 dkimstrictall set policies provide big hint receiver unsigned message expected obviously fraud want deny domain feel domains still going allow roaming usage domain site service certainly heavily phished domains merit discarding given small fraction total universe mail much likely domains publish ssp discardable instead due admins dont understand means last time protocol stated insightful small numbers case rfc 2821 7 security considerations 71 mail security spoofing specification address authentication issues associated smtp advocate useful functionality disabled hope providing small margin protection ignorant user trying fake mail got wrong tune 10s billions dollars world wide industry problem longer small margin ignorant users world wide industry problem hope keep flawed subjective policies like repeated dkim policy protocol design process sincerely hector santos cto httpwwwsantronicscom httpsantronicsblogspotcom amaxculvdcyfoacstcdie sun feb 24 102739 2008 message 11 date sat 09 feb 2008 123651 0000 stephen farrell subject ietfdkim return issues jim fenton cc ietf dkim wg messageid 47ad9e6360307cstcdie contenttype textplain charsetiso88591 formatflowed jim fenton wrote possibility return discipline tracking individual issues using issue tracker diligent issue scribe eliot lear see lot discussion going around around getting closure raise issue please start subject line new issue fair point however recent discussion doesnt seem easily trackable way thereve good fairly generalrambling posts thatd likely end vague issues id ask anyone raising ssp02 issue next also include proposed change even proposed change isnt yet totally precise issue number issued please replace issue nnnn something like eliot keeps sanity work time time would prefer remain sane wed seen insane eliot know better though id also like see ssp02 close bunch issues currently tracker wg chairs take shot perhaps confirming items marked acceptcheck indeed closed plan get next dayjob permitting someone cycles feel free help pass sending opinion barry list please thatd speed anyway cheers stephen jim _______________________________________________ note well list operates according httpmipassocorgdkimietflistruleshtml mwbfbflsantronicscom sun feb 24 102739 2008 message 12 date sat 09 feb 2008 142527 0500 hector santos subject ietfdkim draftietfdkimssp02txt aspssp section 28 eric allman cc dkim list messageid 47adfe279020204santronicscom contenttype textplain charsetiso88591 formatflowed eric allman wrote hector thanks example smtp vs submit gives good handle mean relaxed protocol im understanding protocol consistency fraud think connected dont understand ssp02 makes easier vs ssp01 im sure part understood phrase usage consistency combine fraud consistency technical sense deals protocol logic means everything measure get receive consistent expected true definitions field propositions consistent true system propositions shown inconsistent contains contradiction proposition negation consistency completeness two key concerns modern logic harmonious uniformity agreement among things parts ssp02 read allow receiver lets say removes incentive perform consistency check specification allows inconsistent state exist far aware ssp02 protocol weaker ssp01 weaker normative requirements receiver interprets protocol inevitable buy idea ssp right impose requirements receivers youre disagreeing premise fully understand case choose one go cant ways well dont think ssp impose requirements receiver allowing receiver make final decision known facts inconsistent transactions receivers dont want junk take told hey junk dont care get rid final outcome really receiver consider said arent inherently imposing rules receiver indicating ssp telling receiver said position desirable may seem put requirements receiver order guarantee consistent results reality receivers whatever want order give best results customers exactly believe ssp02 removing vital information decision table therefore virtue decision ssp02 negatively imposing rules policies receivers behave hence saying normative requirements receivers mind bowing inevitable reality dont dont spf softfail like consequent ssp02 dkimall root eliminating concept 3rd party signatures sorry still dont follow logic decision still based technical merits subjective policy making receiver relevant terms receiver interprets dkim results hence inappropriate discussion think everyone going implement dkim standalone appliance proxy box engine fed millions messages sole job process messages pity general case receivers believe going tolerate high volume overhead abuse little payoff return remember dkim eliminates problem spf softfails believe stated dkim media interviews want results treated way via ssp02 people going find unlike spf rejecting softfails pretty reliable bet said control receivers leaving choice either far concern dkim sure come gate thorn side black eye ssp02 model say things evaluator lead believe youve got different idea say idea evaluator would first fundamental protocol consistency evaluator would part dkimssp framework across supportivecompliant systems would 100 independent subjective heuristics reputation analysis one group detecting questionable inherent policies implementations methods inverse model head evaluator completely dependent subjective heuristics reputation analysis short receiver decides process message indeed point introducing concept attempt make explicit scope normative definition ssp spec im misunderstanding trying say possible apologize request explanation standard track ssp protocol protocol consistency check subject system unknown scope evaluators dont really solid engineering logic behind removal bag ball guess thats asp wins ssp dead dkim isolated limited market general case begin taken advantage include dkim forge ssp02asp people dont want receivers worry right sincerely hector santos cto httpwwwsantronicscom httpsantronicsblogspotcom _______________________________________________ note well list operates according tue 05 aug 2008 191710 0600 opensuse gigabyte instability cron outofitsmind