8 792 disc grammar uk schools response fascinated geoffrey sampson defense traditional educational language standards resist commenting points says seems teaching correct usage standard terminology elements grammar punctuation ability remedy formal errors faulty prose exactly kinds thing need taught area secondaryschool level say school pupils taught engage explicit systematic reflection use language strikes akin suggesting teachers french forget teaching past participle vivre favour getting pupils develop considered opinions theories derrida even assuming type cognitive achievement worthwhile principle quite impractical average secondaryschool class attain setting aside possible implication elitism phrase average secondaryschool class view charge impracticality suspicion since typical way dismissing innovation means nice time already identified priorities trouble getting time cf time money investigate socalled causes crime much hardly keep demand prisons top priority time anything else thanks anyway nevertheless principle put read find top priorities disappointed though rationale offered seemed predictable also arguable people need learn write national language accurately much modern life depends complex written communication prose full unsystematic deviations conventions interferes successful communication dirty windows interfere successful vision message gets lost amid problems medium people need terminology talking bits pieces language car mechanic needs know names parts motor order provide apparatus thinking gone wrong cure prose nt work sounds reasonable indeed favor students knowing things fact prescriptive grammatical terminology analysis set foundation even linguists engage explicit systematic reflection use language namely linguists start traditional categories explore motivations discuss seem inadequate would adequate view whatever larger linguistic facts brought bear whatever problem traditional grammar realise course geoff arguing wonder traditional grammatical analysis etc either necessary sufficient effective complex communication probably nobody would defend sufficient condition view much obscure incomprehensible though grammatically flawless standard writing also wonder necessary condition able analyse imitate standard way writing standard different natural language first learned type least good also professional creative writers know actually aware key elements style e g one effective using even coining nominal compounds show recognition characteristic style mentioned thus challenging notion standard necesarily demand use certain contexts presented esp great logical thing generally portrayed gon na solve communication problems alarmed english publishers since time caxton even explicitly taught maybe lot teachers screw teaching grammar lot students complain get irremediably bored want get hell classroom knows even linguistics might popular many students nt earlier turned grammar beyond though teaching orthography grammar school level much broader educational value one lessons learn nothing big worthwhile ever achieved life without careful attention endless tedious often arbitrary details cant see better domain learning lesson orthography grammar one national language contains tedious details relates material surrounds child everyday life discipline moral fibre argument last ditch attempt enforcing authoritarianism friend mine english teacher observed supervisor ambitious man stickler discipline night school students wear hats class says supervisor friend teacher told one recalcitrant student night school adults student took put right back friend said teach english bothering anybody else going get sucked authority game school children full petty discipline things insisted upon along learning subjects obediance important understanding argument discipline comes obedience lead understanding time argument cf learning declensions conjugations approaching texts often teachers nt even know something insisted know obeyed else authoritarian structure collapses supervisors come lots kids resent school probably ones actually like cause disturbances cant control somehow anyone unfamiliar childhood referring basically discipline argument seems argument student mastered standard english demonstrated ability necessarily inclination follow relatively complex orders routines therefore considered capable positions hierarchies following fairly complex orders considered necessary least desirable little wonder actually call behavioral skill morality question geoff rationale without questioning view british civilization quote message nt know benji