guido van rossum hoaufpythonorg stand corrected points youve convinced lib wrong still dont like local last place local dot files directories symmetry usrlocal pretty weak certainly wont help beginning users compromise im okay python would like able say user explicitly set environment variable order benefit feature like pythonpath pythonstartup might defeat point making easy use noobs os x think put somewhere library put different place python framework puts stuff thu may 1 2008 825 pm wrote 0155 hoaufpythonorg wrote thu may 1 2008 503 pm wrote hi everybody apologize writing yet another lengthy screed simple directory naming issue feel strongly encourate anyone doesnt simply skip first background strong feelings actually based experience long time ago helping someone c programming homework baffled helped programs compiled soon tried didnt issue replicated autotoolsfriendly directory structure time bin include lib etc managed gnu stow onto machine edited shell setup include appropriately soon finished cleaned mess left behind thereby removed build dependencies shared university build server days linux friendly graphical operating system encouraged look even frequently home directory anything suspect likelihood problem would worse since cleaning home directory course find appreciate lack visual noise nautilus et al well also obviously think tools work way think python particular attract audience learning program necessarily savvy arcane nuances filesystem layout would best details abstracted concern naive python developer reading installation instructions wiki trying get started twisted development seeing directory created home directory case may 3 directories bin lib include bit surprise dont actually care files installed library long theyre installed import however may care clicking little house icon shows pictures movies etc lib whats lib bin whats bin like box throw stuff share put stuff share shared wait im supposed put public briefly lib directory participating convention youve also got full complement stuff might go installation like usrlocal lib might annoy little bin etc games include lib lib32 man sbin share src going get ugly pretty fast especially comes finder nautilus explorer every time open window unless misread pep theres going lib subdirectory python packages dont put stuff places afaik python packages least frequently put stuff bin scripts think windows python packages pure python packages either setuppy boasts installplatlib install headers installdata execprefix options suggests include bin share directory least im sure time grovel around id find one installed manpages twisted apparently setuppy doesnt anything leave os packages course little handled pep even usage name lib implies pep taking care compatible idiom goes beyond python least beyond simple python packages even assuming python library ever wanted install things many python libraries simply wrappers around lowerlevel libraries want perform peruser install one going configure prefixsomething something mean local would nice python living space matter itd nice get autotools ruby php perl emacs ad nauseum looking local mirror usr didnt write bunch shell bootstrap glue get everything behave consistently learn new special names bits configuration different ones usrlocal etc replicate consistent python development environment ton bizarre dependencies across something like 15 different os installations mention bevy virtual machines keep around fun think issues lot machines macs linux boxes best windows fwiw dont idea right thing windows local doesnt particularly make sense neither lib context theres reasonable guess put scripts dependent shared libraries peruser installation less issue windows mac default finder window home directory desktop subdirectory thereof markedly public name fact os x whole bunch reserved names home directory none start dot rule seems contains stuff user cares doesnt start dot hmm mac laptop default finder window definitely home directory may artifact many os upgrades tweak performed long time ago forgot though apologies average user experience worth ubuntu also directories creates desktop pictures documents examples templates videos empty typically delete ones dont use going visible directory grounds python specific thing explicitly participating convention software please call python something much better local imo depends perceived python mirroring usrlocal layout convention users name lib implies worse however python trying select location library bookkeeping allow installation platform libraries scripts using mechanism well pythond would still preference could least understand python mirroring mac gnome kde convention special directories guy finds software insists visible fixed files home directory rude vmware example wants vmware directory pretty much every application use nice enough use dotfiles even cedega roughlycomparableto lib applications ive installed folder distinction mind dot files exception like profile bashrc managed users apps manage provide apis manipulating contents sort like thw windows registry nondot files stuff user needs aware experience modern linux suggests usage youre describing gradually phased applications want manage nonuservisible storage something like registry increasingly use gconf database serverland granted gconf stored dotfiles home directory version control variously written hand databases maintained externally downloaded stuff asoundrc emacs vimrc vim xresources fonts gnomerc inputrc bashrc bash_profile profile screenrc xresources sshconfig sshauthorized_keys sshknown_hosts know dot files care maintain theyre benefit particular pieces software lot dotfiles dont think set quite happy dont see every one every time looking home directory save dialog im sure python packages fall istm something user must explicitly choose target installer user also likely dig remove stuff python package management doesnt way remove packages hope users never explicitly choose target installer impression point adding feature allow default behavior distutils work simply automatically unixy platforms rather puking permissions requiring arcana like sudo access editing shells startup quietly agitating elsewhere get localbin added path default way locallib ld_library_path hard sell know explicitly choose much work set appropriate shell environment variables matter already suppose regardless outcome discussion ill still local put another way trivial make locallib show symlinking lib thats thing im sure youre saying im saying advanced users want show theyll symlink naive users want hide theyll delete break python possibly without knowing cant make lib disappear lots software ends looking software cares another file home directory mostly switching point quick access everything access regularly nothings going break thats mean software processes list anything lots stuff shows list gnome ubuntu choose file dialog comes 80 time comes default home directory open terminal opens home directory default location emacs home directory quickly measure cognitive load looking contents directory since shell starts autocomplete starts commonletter real estate scarce directory called projects currently autocomplete p directory called linux autocomplete l either publicname proposal typing additional letter every day words care another file use home directory sort todo list mostly empty unless lot going case fills various objects im working empty exceptions rule every platform things os puts generally things like pictures desktop music put pictures downloaded files music macs library directory never bothered since osprovided basically alternate location dotfiles application data friends another story way agree everything access regularly good description home directory except lib directory something want access regularly occasionally maybe every weeks want chuck dependency forget year guido van rossum home page 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