text_combined: qvcimnfiqkwxudxmipassocorg send ietfdkim mailing list submissions gfkyhddlmipassocorg subscribe unsubscribe via world wide web visit httpmipassocorgmailmanlistinfoietfdkim via email send message subject body help qvcimnfiqkwxudxmipassocorg reach person managing list qghtrnrqbhlpvmipassocorg replying please edit subject line specific contents ietfdkim digest todays topics 1 draftietfdkimssp02txt discardableexclusive damon 2 fwd id actiondraftcrockeremailarch10txt dave crocker 3 discardable means discardable mh michael hammer 5304 4 discardable means discardable sm 5 discardable means discardable douglas otis 6 discardable means discardable mh michael hammer 5304 7 discardable means discardable hector santos 8 discardable means discardable steve atkins byfzbhmergmailcom sat apr 26 155011 2008 message 1 date sun 24 feb 2008 151129 0500 damon subject ietfdkim draftietfdkimssp02txt discardableexclusive sm cc thom oconnor gfkyhddlmipassocorg messageid 00195365338844370a195365x3k8k4370a19v365338mailgmailcom contenttype textplain charsetutf8 sun feb 24 2008 246 pm sm wrote 0914 24022008 hector santos wrote pray tell aware tells mta processing payload smtp data state post smtp issue 250 positive message accept response code true purpose silently discarding yes agreed point releasing responsibility delivery message sending mta message business accepting message dropping floor matter policy rfcs regards damon otsdcrockernet sat apr 26 155011 2008 message 2 date sun 24 feb 2008 203710 0800 dave crocker subject ietfdkim fwd id actiondraftcrockeremailarch10txt dkim ietf wg messageid 47c245f69020807dcrockernet contenttype textplain charsetiso88591 folks new version last pdf html versions discussion major changes end introduction original message subject id actiondraftcrockeremailarch10txt date sun 24 feb 2008 200001 0800 pst qfokcxikkhfhvqietforg replyto qfokcxikkhfhvqietforg moepzjuytjietforg new internetdraft available online internetdrafts directories title internet mail architecture authors crocker filename draftcrockeremailarch10txt pages 48 date 20080224 thirtyfive year history internet mail undergone significant changes scale complexity become global infrastructure service first standardized architecture networked email specified little simple split user world transmission world core aspects service styles mailbox address basic message format remained remarkably constant however todays internet mail distinguished many independent operators many different components providing service users many others performing message transfer public discussion service often lacks common terminology common frame reference components activities common reference model terminology facilitates discussion problems service changes policy enhancement services functionality document offers enhanced internet mail architecture targets description existing service order facilitate clearer efficient technical operations policy discussions email url internetdraft httpwwwietforginternetdraftsdraftcrockeremailarch10txt remove id announcement list send message vcsdezvmumbbpdffvietforg word unsubscribe body message also visit httpswww1ietforgmailmanlistinfoidannounce change subscription settings internetdrafts also available anonymous ftp login username anonymous password email address logging type cd internetdrafts get draftcrockeremailarch10txt list internetdrafts directories found httpwwwietforgshadowhtml ftpftpietforgietf1shadowsitestxt internetdrafts also obtained email send message mailservietforg body type file internetdraftsdraftcrockeremailarch10txt note mail server ietforg return document mimeencoded form using mpack utility use feature insert command encoding mime file command decode responses need munpack mimecompliant mail reader different mimecompliant mail readers exhibit different behavior especially dealing multipart mime messages ie documents split multiple messages check local documentation manipulate messages data enable mime compliant mail reader implementation automatically retrieve ascii version internetdraft dave crocker brandenburg internetworking bbiwnet next part next part embedded charsetunspecified text scrubbed name filecdocume1dhclocals1tempnsmailtxt url httpmipassocorgpipermailietfdkimattachments20080224a7fb73a9attachment0001txt hwgszcaagcom sat apr 26 155011 2008 message 3 date mon 25 feb 2008 094334 0500 mh michael hammer 5304 subject ietfdkim discardable means discardable hector santos messageid contenttype textplain charsetusascii also qualification asking receiver discard mail heavily phished domain ask lightly phished certain threshold phished mail discardable also mean sorry suffering enough right ask discard mail without intending put words johns mouth think meant risk legitimate email lost receiver respects discardable assertion respect sending domains need consider carefully implications making discardable assertion something along lines careful ask might get factor receiving domains going consider complaints received users undelivered email calculation whether respect discardable assertion know quite domains implemented manner things incorrectly poorly misunderstanding consequences actions experience sspdiscardableetc part senders receivers expect less problem say hope finally may domains use sort decision matrix uinvolving dkim discardable assertion context factors strong spf assertion particular email fails spf fails dkim may discard hand passses spf fails dkim may choose discard signing sender even feedback receivers im still position give specific numbers regard broken signatures forwarding etc numbers appear relatively small receiver domain perspective regard complaints small small enough im advocate discardable recognize isnt everyone ive said along also recognize though receiver domain customer support staff likely hear first undelivered emails receiver domain likely choose balance benefit listening discardable assertions increase support calls might result particular domains discardable assertion thoughts mike drresistornet sat apr 26 155011 2008 message 4 date mon 25 feb 2008 090337 0800 sm subject ietfdkim discardable means discardable mh michael hammer 5304 cc gfkyhddlmipassocorg messageid 625622008022507310902b894e0resistornet contenttype textplain charsetusascii formatflowed 0643 25022008 mh michael hammer 5304 wrote without intending put words johns mouth think meant risk legitimate email lost receiver respects discardable assertion respect sending domains need consider carefully implications making discardable assertion something along lines careful ask might get receiver might read sender doesnt care whether mail gets delivered factor receiving domains going consider complaints received users undelivered email calculation whether respect discardable assertion know quite domains implemented manner things incorrectly poorly misunderstanding consequences actions experience sspdiscardableetc part senders receivers expect less problem say hope john levine made case discardable useful doesnt even want rejections receiver also decide 1 key retrieved dns 2 failures dkim checks excluding hash verification 3 mta failures moment treated temporary failure avoid blockback receiver might well drop mail domain receiver domain likely choose balance benefit listening discardable assertions increase support calls might result particular domains discardable assertion yes regards sm udcatmailabuseorg sat apr 26 155011 2008 message 5 date mon 25 feb 2008 095201 0800 douglas otis subject ietfdkim discardable means discardable sm cc dkim list messageid 72759e90a188458aacdd58f5a09e0029mailabuseorg contenttype textplain charsetusascii formatflowed delspyes feb 25 2008 903 sm wrote receiver might read sender doesnt care whether mail gets delivered agreed steve atkins also opined assertion _does not_ offer solution addressed rfc 5016 requirements draft section 32 signing complete assertion recommended silent diminished handling dsns handling transactional messages discard fashion hides possible protocol issue ssp draft could recommend use rfc 3464 examples specific dkim signature failures diminished handling dsns may also predicated upon rfc 2821 mailfrom within rfc 2822 fromdkim domain could assist high profile domains deal dsn messages without also handling backscatter purportedly domains would possible include signing complete assertion would drawback allowing type assertion doug nonlmuutbbiwnet sat apr 26 154855 2008 message 6 date sat 16 feb 2008 165850 0800 nonlmuutbbiwnet subject ietfdkim admin mipassocorg dkimorg mailing list host change 21617 16pm pacific tme dkim ietf wg messageid 47b786ca5030602bbiwnet contenttype textplain charsetiso88591 formatflowed folks scheduled transition mipassocorg dkimorg accounts appears complete sites appear normally accessible receipt email via mailing list final test experience change problem please let know immediately dhcnoticedcrockernet nonlmuutbbiwnet ok might take bit longer see call 14082468253 dave crocker brandenburg internetworking bbiwnet hwgszcaagcom sat apr 26 155011 2008 message 6 date mon 25 feb 2008 131751 0500 mh michael hammer 5304 subject ietfdkim discardable means discardable sm cc gfkyhddlmipassocorg messageid contenttype textplain charsetusascii original message sm mailtodrresistornet sent monday february 25 2008 1204 pm mh michael hammer 5304 cc gfkyhddlmipassocorg subject ietfdkim discardable means discardable receiver might read sender doesnt care whether mail gets delivered might domains take stance wouldnt expect mainstream domains take stance expect financial institutions somewhat early adopters ispmailbox provider decides discardable means dont bother trying deliver mail prepared beef customer service staff handle complaints significant difference sendedr saying recognize fraction percent legitimate mail might get delivered assertion followed sender doesnt care whether mail gets delivered mike mwbfbflsantronicscom sat apr 26 155011 2008 message 7 date mon 25 feb 2008 140528 0500 hector santos subject ietfdkim discardable means discardable mh michael hammer 5304 cc gfkyhddlmipassocorg messageid 47c311787060708santronicscom contenttype textplain charsetiso88591 formatflowed mh michael hammer 5304 wrote original message receiver might read sender doesnt care whether mail gets delivered might domains take stance wouldnt expect mainstream domains take stance expect financial institutions somewhat early adopters ispmailbox provider decides discardable means dont bother trying deliver mail prepared beef customer service staff handle complaints beef legal retainers well significant difference sendedr saying recognize fraction percent legitimate mail might get delivered assertion followed sender doesnt care whether mail gets delivered 1 less issue discardable policy lack one policies handling semantics interesting email abuse two different policies see clear legal claims neglect highvalue domains dont use discardable words receiver sees damaging goods continues pass damaged goods asap says user harm someone going responsible whole thing ridden fleas ongoing administrator myth product liability risk discarding mail especially issuing 250 acceptance smacks 1986 us epca provisions satisfying user expectations dynamic smtp level reject satisfy instant notification accepting discarding runs huge risk people better get right sincerely hector santos cto httpwwwsantronicscom httpsantronicsblogspotcom gsdszblightycom sat apr 26 155011 2008 message 8 date mon 25 feb 2008 104338 0800 steve atkins subject ietfdkim discardable means discardable dkim list messageid 1687e7705ec146138513b182767b990bblightycom contenttype textplain charsetusascii formatflowed delspyes feb 25 2008 1017 mh michael hammer 5304 wrote receiver might read sender doesnt care whether mail gets delivered might domains take stance wouldnt expect mainstream domains take stance expect financial institutions somewhat early adopters ispmailbox provider decides discardable means dont bother trying deliver mail prepared beef customer service staff handle complaints significant difference sendedr saying recognize fraction percent legitimate mail might get delivered assertion followed sender doesnt care whether mail gets delivered theyre statement cared mail send delivered wouldnt deploy something design cause fraction delivered provide benefits cheers steve _______________________________________________ note well list operates according end ietfdkim digest vol 109 issue 1 thu 07 aug 2008 164617 0800 ietfdkim digest vol 109 issue 1