text_combined: zooko kakltzookocom mar 19 2008 323 pm guido van rossum wrote people want chime please dialog phillip might incorrectly assume nobody besides phillip really cares really care ive used setuptools easy_install eggs pkg_resources extensively past year contributed small patches plenty problems find overall useful tools great boon programming community lower costs reusing peoples code python community benefit greatly way becomes widely enough accepted reach tipping point become ubiquitous setuptools already de facto standard hasnt become ubiquitous possibly part egg hatred ive interviewed several successful python hackers hate eggs order understand hate ive taken notes interviews list includes mvl whose name invoked earlier thread filtering yer basic complaining bugs complaints course legitimate dont indict setuptools worse software comparable scope maturity objections seem fall two categories 1 notion package dependency resolution programmable commandline installation packages language level bad notion cant really case existence functionality programming language level inherently bad notion would hearing complaints ruby folks gems system standard ubiquitous hear complaints murmurs satisfaction one person recently reported packages python finds reusing peoples code often works ruby almost ruby software gemified fraction python software eggified often complaint comes idea eggs conflict systemlevel package management tools usually debianubuntu users note ruby software hard include operating system packaging schemes ubuntu hardy aptcache shows plenty ruby software sufficiently mature widely supported setuptools could actually make easier integrate python software debian see stdeb 1 2 setuptoolseggs give grief really case setuptools causes host small unnecessary problems people prefer things differently pje personally prefer use gnu stow setuptools causes unnecessary avoidable problems many people object rightly enough setuppy install automatically fetching new software internet default fact easy_install creates sitepy changes semantics pythonpath probably widely deservedly hated example kind thing 2 could go common technical complaints kind type2 problems fixed changing setuptools grudgingly accepted users retaining compatibility large growing ecosystem eggy software certainly fixing setuptools play better others likely path success setting invent noneggcompatible alternative project might never implemented well enough serve would probably never overtake eggss lead python ecosystem would probably turn better tool since asked chime advise publically bless eggs setuptools easy_install plausible future standards solicit patches address complaints matter soliciting specific complaints would good start ive done private many times partial success specific part one promising approach request objections form automated tests setuptools fails eg 3 regards zooko owhielacronx 1 httpstdebpythonhostingcom 2 httpwwwrittauorgblog2007072602 pjes suggested trivial fix satisfy objectors cant support use case cd somepkg python setuppy install cd python c import somepkg 3 httptwistedmatrixcomtracticket2308comment5 _______________________________________________ pythondev mailing list zvlllneumpythonorg httpmailpythonorgmailmanlistinfopythondev unsubscribe httpmailpythonorgmailmanoptionspythondevpythondev40tangomucom wed 06 aug 2008 101412 0600 pythondev pep 365 adding pkg_resources module