text_combined: 5 1433 comparative method reread newmeyer original posting date 30 nov 94 noticed implicit attack notion basic word order comparative purposes flows earlier question basic word order variously defined various analysts implying lacks precision extent understood responses far one responded particular point goes basically agreement newmeyer criticism assumed larger implications comparative reconstruction syntax stick know linguistic events europe since expect events familiar readers events language families examples may speak readers previous ideas particular linguistic events referred best circumstances provoke discussion anticipate notion basic word order simpleminded simplistic diachronic purposes fn could anything resembling latin syntax reconstructed comparison syntax modern romance languages bw immediate ancestor romance languages latin proto romance svo exceptions e g french j ai rien fait etc nt hints certain historical complications also aux inversion standard french e g sontils venus standard french aux inversion probably germanic origin found elsewhere romance reconstruction case cf latin english possible implications earlier word order possibilities case inflections remain third person object clitics romance languages consider deviations svo word order romance languages may suspect notion basic word order villain extent invites analyst disregard less frequent syntactically restricted word orders safe internal reconstruction syntax revealing procedure may internal reconstruction syntax within language using comparative method reconstruct within groups languages genetically related criteria fact last point usually done probably proper way proceed given intent comparative method always reconstruct basic vocabulary first basis sound correspondences justify genetic relationship among languages consider syntactic comparison problems necessary procedure emerge following discussion remains necessary unless want reconstruct syntactic evolution geographical area rather genetic family latter may useful complement assumed genetic reconstruction think digressive idea pursue preverbal object clitics romance another hint complications svo concept romance preverbal object clitic means ov suppose basic means noun pronoun head aout fixing multiple object clitic order romance e g case order versus person inherent topicality order cant reconstructed latin clitics arise distinct entities proto romance earliest single preferred clitic order reconstructed proto romance e g datacc invariant spanish think rumanian accdat seems older french remaining third persons e inherent topicality difference therefore earlier case ordering remains french accdat may reflect germanic influence well fixed clitic orders originally arise independently various areas romance case avoid comparative method addressing problem origin object clitic order romance sum think origin evolution fixed multiple object clitic orders romance legitimate issue solved without recourse comparative method among others course therefore comparative method dismissed syntactic reconstruction fn therefore reconstruct proto germanic almost surely incorrectly svo bw newmeyer reference proto germanic reveals even romance basic word order villainous concept reconstruction case basic word orders compared across related languages reconstruct protobasic word orders minor word orders ignored reconstructed protominor word orders one principle emerges knowledge historical record word order change nt work way e word orders compartmentalized basic minor diachronic purposes principle want develop tools principles syntactic reconstruction really consider functions served various word orders different times detect changes functions diachronically words word order change language must studied context totality functions word orders given time difference study study change basic word order latter means anything analogous study phonetic change phonemic change analysts argue notion basic word order analogous arguing different concepts phoneme agreed upon linguistic facts fallacy reconstructing basic word order proto germanic basis basic word order current germanic becomes obvious according principle sov word order subordinate clauses continental germanic even invariant property oldest texts later standardised languages e g middle german dutch english also clues us inversion many remnants even without historical texts reveal similarities continental germanic e g v first following subordinate clause adverb still common av bible including english excluding gothic mirrors extent possible new testament greek syntax translated earliest texts germanic show far know tendency relatively favorable verbfinal subordinate clauses much variation later eliminated continental standards leads arguments whether sov tendency breakup earlier general indo european sov tendency earlier fixation died english scandinavian including still highly inflected icelandic creating problems even simplistic functional arguments evolution svo germanic argument would started reaction increasing unreliability case distinction spread social reasons languages nt need argument strike unreasonable although excluded gothic malleable accommodation greek syntax deviations nt greek quite revealing salient absence definite article despite occurrence nt greek well germanic languages gothic translation totally serious imitating nt greek syntax cases could adopted unstressed demonstrative imitate greek article later germanic sense important question gothic syntax malleability syntax innovative proto germanic probably never know ways gothic translations nt greek stretched limits malleability distorted colloquial functions word order spoken gothic generally germanic third century sov invariant ancestor deteriorate germanic least puzzling germanic get aux inversion even yes questions indo european languages show wh fronting wh questions reason believe proto language would buying newmeyer questioning preceding argument cf fn impression increasing frequency one comes across statements following literature attested languages language family x syntactic property therefore assume proto x property bw increasing frequency implication copycat historical linguists becoming less responsible used cf discussion spread rumors number eskimo words snow syntax driving historical linguistics pot safe guess ancillary arguments come like considering areally widespread ie languages likely unanimity wh first questions across ie reflective protolanguage ok maybe wh fronting proto ie got better explanation facts reason ignore aux inversion germanic questions application inversion yes questions mean question marker initial position wh question position yes questions hullo kidding marker ibai found gothic whenever new testament greek original nt get wrong suggesting initial yes questionmarker necessary condition inversion innovation germanic observing option marker anticipating indeed already suggested analysts overly formal approaches syntax might suppose necessity marker motivate mechanical generalisation inversion wh yes questions version occurs germanic reconstruct proto germanic qualification variable gothic variable nt greek pronoun subjects usually invert verb noun subjects usually practical point far know issue differentiation germanic anything like modern descendents 4 5th century thus aux inversion goes back far matter spread one germanic area another part proto west germanic innovations must spread recognise innovations language dialect historical linguistics study evolution idiolect concept evolution idiolect even coherent finally typological arguments morphologyas fossilized syntax universaltypology word order congealed early 1970s suggested even ie sov vso subject marking inflection follows verb v get inevitably suggested celtic maintains archaic basic word order among ie languages another excess diachronic application whatever notion basic word order principal objection raised obvious even unlikely basic word orders morphologise fact may least likely morphologise considering represents unstressed anaphor v might minor word order position note basic word order means arguments nominal pronominal discourse frequency criterial basic since least subject arguments pronominal merely inflectional furthermore basic counts relative frequency subject nominals based something quite rare discourse subject nominals case subject inflection following verb stem widespread eurasian areal feature extending africa semitic various branches afro asiatic might taken clue correctness nostratic superfamily notions others indication extremely old innovation spread millenia across families regardless genetic relationship cf famous balkan area still others might opt coincidence various languages also feature e g kanuri west africa various new world languages welcome nostratic questions functions position verb socalled sov languages raised v inflectional order typological implications go beyond current knowledge although dimly remember various eurasian sov languages different according whether function postverb al position languages obvious example contrast eurasian sov languages differences amongst socalled sovx west african languages x adpositional phrase complications origin adpositional phrases languages refrain discussing since many eurasian sov languages also v inflectional languages know sov languages minor postverbal position anaphoric subject turns positions certain constructions demonstrate inflection maybe typology relevant amerind languages help solve problem maybe may also anticipate reappearance partyspoiling question representativeness curent language types possible former language types doubt unwelcome unhelpful thought many context seems worth mentioning mathematical probability arguments various word orders seen practiced impressive faults initial assumptions example far know invariably assume validity counting number languages regardless genetic relationship areal contiguity languages counted seems unsound particularly ignoring areal contiguity example find think eurasian area consisting umpteen umpred languages word order ignoring position verb independent variable new world find large areas contiguous order separate areas order maybe calculating mathematical probability basis contiguous area rather number languages surprising result might probable area independent variable individual language course sure implications might one might might likely ordering strategy predominance across languages counted individually largely result areal spread spread old enough predominance might even result absolute increase number languages world together however nt really relevant criticim way probability arguments applied syntactic typology historical implications adequate assumptions language typology fact leave discussion already widely accepted suggestion strategies information distribution clause esp terms old new relevant typology problematic notions crosslinguistic comparison subject object similarly example think eurasia agent patient theme order largely cuts across ergative accusative languages even though ergative languages would patient theme whatever term want subject extent universal even eurasia without confusing accusative definitions subject object subject status consistent casemarking ergative definitions casemarking closely tied transitivity role mushy crosslinguistic concept subject fn furthermore syntactic change fairly catyclysmic restructuring grammars wholesale one generation unlikely impossible phonological systems bw think thrust fn suggestion largely right though probably vastly overstated basis older ideas creoles however questions remain mind conditions things happen within monolingual areas among closely related mutually intelligible languages certain types syntactic strategies seem potential spead quite quickly perhaps almost quickly new words expressions comparable speed generally observed phonological change probably unlikely impossible newmeyer puts internal linguistic social reasons fact think unlikely accurate impossible depending nature particular type phonological change example possible singlegeneration phonological change current english african americans new york city area sufficient data make possibility implications worth discussing get section labov new book discusses recent innovations chicago vowel system sure examples however extent languagecontact propels cataclysmic syntactic change historical record fn suggestion clear example english east la mexican american community immediately strikingingly different adjacent english dialects phonological syntactic level applies monolingual speakers east la english well spanish english bilinguals various phonological segments well intonational contours understanding historical syntactic evolution often difficult distinguish internal evolution language contact hence sour regard substratal theories late 19th tomid 20th c celebration neogrammarian achievements also jakobson caution language contact might permit evoluton internally possible anyway rather promote one possible direction change opposed possible directions might flourish external circumstances consider problematic blanket statement major consideration keep mind possible constraint change reconstructive expeditions unknown past enough thoughts problems using comparative method alone reconstruct syntax nobody would suggest something foolish enlisting possible tools reconstruction including internal typological addition comparative conversely would equally foolish shun comparative method reconstructive tool case notion basic word order helpful syntactic reconstruction doubtful value autonomous observation synchronic state language well mean ok observe english french synchronically svo spoken french even english least former preferred question formation strategies without discussion mean syntaxes basically insightful interesting coin adjective sense would like readers react points made least accuracy facts suggested various languages since expert areas facts presented e g current typological theory indo european linguistics eurasian new world areal syntactic characteristics benji