text_combined: disc functionalism 8 798 response benji wald comments 8 736 disc functionalism fear may talking little crosspurposes main interest clarifying position natural phonology issue socalled contradictory processes benji seems little focused question means call something cluster phonetic terms deleted elaboration nature phonetic clusters particularly pt question remember correctly speakers able pronounce reduced pt could nt pronounce unreduced one view said understand phonological processes involved consciously controllable reduction whatever first vowel potato reflects process normally occurs speech deliberate conscious relatively spontaneous dealing unconscious stylistic effects view agree yet another reason believing fast speech reduction p pt whatever poses problem natural phonological theory fortition breaks controlled attempt pronounce initial pt would necessarily apply loosely described pt e reduced p fast speech fact cant pronounce cluster way means cluster banned sideeffect pronunciation phonetic target goes along said sounds absurd explicitly acknowledge difference consciously controllable phonological processes unconscious spontaneous nevertheless learned acquired processes missing somehow theory issue indeed account distinction even recognise yes counts thank clarifying natural phonology theory pronounceability part baudouin original vision founded modern phonological theory longer necessarily part modern vision phonology basically baudouin observed phonetic alternations fell two types involved phonetic variants single phoneme involved two distinct phonemes stampe pointed many times latter consciously manipulable former quite unconscious difficult control way interesting later generations seem lost way thanks due small part baudouin influential student shcherba shcherba seemed influenced concept phoneme among british thence american linguists shcherba limited phoneme perceptual unit radically changed linguistic analyses includable excludable study phonology e phonemics time trubetzkoy retained baudouin essential vision boundaries phonology preferred scherbemic conception phoneme archiphonemes phonology still considered separate branch linguistic theory morphophonology sapir carried close correspondence trubetzkoy also retained sharp distinction phonology e stampean processes morphophonology e stampean rules ties approaches together pronounceability fundamental concept phonological theory although trubetzkoy might explicitly agreed claim self conscious speech indeed suppression phonetic realisation rules depending deep phonology morphophonemics never elimination everything short deep phonotactics right fact ask selfconscious speech ever anything suppression realisation rules e ever really include addition rule might interesting question theorists hidden assumptions make difficult comment tackle one red flag raised theory phonology need phonotactics deep otherwise since generative theory wellformedness must address phenomena part theory however natural phonology sees banned sequences sounds directly intentionally pronounced normal speech unpronounceability need necessarily attributable single cause since nt need pronounce nonexistent phonetic structures nt need suppress processes affect hence multiple processes banning socalled phonotactically impermissible sequences hence need single generalization theory ban sequences stampean theory predicts early language learners devoicing vowels voiceless consonants voicing consonants vowels fact processes occur l1 acquisition observed may even manifested learners nt mean actually become dominant phonological acquisition learners established facts going hear somebody say think heard little daughter say playpen highchair day issue desrves serious study would like know actual observations made documentation exists facts admittedly crucial theory relevant theory quote much hedging wonder evidence distinguishable grasping straws refer stampe writings phonological acquisition particularly 1973 published version dissertation much early work based explanation longitudinal studies child speech indeed plenty studies subject seminal one jakobson child language aphasia phonological universals monograph sure accept established fact want spectrograms sure body literature going impress much however accept body literature basically accurate recorded child phonetics wont find many linguists stampe explain recorded evolutionary stages know stampean theory different quite strange people requires one treat acquisition kind loss preexisting rules strange theory based universal grammar include phonology approach universal phonology claim surface presumably observable phonetics oops red flag universal grammar construction grammars behavioral systems stampean derivations grammatical generative sense example restrictions plug phonological derivation np phonotactic conditions remember try pronounce phonetic target anything run filter process system represents includes surface phonetics presumably children adults acquire new phonologies try say things generative theory tells people think legal nt anything say people pronounce things one speculate connection grammar pronounceability nothing inherent generativism makes go markedness theory really correct nt human race converge phonology ages ago keeps phonologies different kind gold standard use arrive grammatical analyses good question answer glad enjoyed question leave proponents markedness theory answer natural phonology holds standard exists universal grammar lot sometimes contradictory constraints pronunceation put order language learners basically phonology exists coordinate articulatory gestures speech explains lot way explains sapir famous conundrum difference blowing candle producing speech sound acquisition act coordinating mouth pass phonetic structures need get natural phonology simply takes view put naturallyoccuring chaotic behavioral constraints kind order depending challenges target language poses articulators contradictory processes depends say answer examples naturallyoccurring chaotic behavioral constraints get away referring examples donegan stampe study natural phonology paper pretty good job talking contradictory processes work chaotic mean way processes interact l1 predictable depends child attempts pronounce need single correct path properly coordinated speech tract rick wojcik bellevue wa rickw eskimo com http www eskimo com rickw