text_combined: phillip j eby moetelecommunitycom 0510 pm 3172008 0500 jeff rush wrote packaging bof yesterday although relevant packager bootstrap thread guido asked post concerns bof drew 15 people many packagers red hat ubuntu everyone strong expressions frustration status quo tried resolve issues patches rejected taking either side whether rejections justified say general feeling concerns intentionally addressed isnt healthy several abandoned setuptools deeming failed solution others called fork start leader group claim accurately captured expressed concerns apologize bof misrepresentations im actually happy hear theres much energy available hopefully harnessed towards positive solutions began developing setuptools often asked input packagers developers etc distutilssig met overwhelming silence fact group people ready work solutions seems like positive change hard make design decisions regarding itches dont personally people wont help scratch unfortunately lot proposals packaging system people form fix us breaking things people though many helpful contributing troubleshooting help good patches good patches took nearly year get setuptools fedora got 06c8 sent almost year ago im person reviewing setuptools patches ive spent days last year focused development work setuptools opposed answering questions sig never good thing peoples patches sit around regardless come thats thing rejecting patches 1 many felt existing dependency resolver correct wanted full tree traversal resulting intersection restrictions instead firstacceptablesolution approach taking result toplevel dependencies enforced upon lower levels latter faster however one solution would make resolver pluggable patches welcome counts personally bob originally wanted fulltree intersection turned hairier implement seems first guess none people want actually tried implement without factorial exponential doesnt mean ill unhappy somebody succeeds intuitively seems easy gather requirements intersect practice different versions package may different dependencies intersection nearly simple ended going depthfirst version current algorithm switched breadthfirst later field tests showed problems greedy testing latestversionfirst assumption recent versions would likely mostrestrictive version requirements words attempt achieve heuristically whats proposed algorithmically guess whatever cases heuristic failing would probably helped algorithmic approach either would welcome actual data either way though patches welcome specifically trunk dont see resolver overhaul suitable 06 stable branch 2 people want solution handling documentation distutils module commented sections related several years many things gets tossed around distutilssig every couple times ive thrown options might done conversation peters around time anybody would actually work included since dont itch needs scratching area particular somebody wants come metadata standard including documentation eggs weve got boatload hooks could done nothings stopping anybody proposing standard building tool eg using setuptools command hook egginfo writer hook etc 3 flexible internal handing different types files needed currently code data lib etc files aggregated build time people would like kept separate installpackaging time dont know means exactly also want greater flexibility kinds files identified packaging currently single plugin entrypoint file_finding people resorted abusing setuptools function find_packages different includeexclude args solution expand set entrypoints finer grained categories also want way expand set categories rather fixed set easily done entrypoint groups names people also want greater variety file_finders included setuptools instead cvs svn want comprehend mercurial bazaar git forth point cheeseshop plugins already available systems mentioned plus darcs monotone mean included bundled doesnt make whole lot sense id think youre using setuptools developer reason need file finders since source distributions include prebuilt manifest youd problem saying easy_install setuptoolsgit adding setup_requiressetuptoolsgit line setuppy although latter would needed development deployment mean support installing tools really wanted add pluggable downloadretrieval mechanism easy_install 07 would still love see happen 4 want uninstall setuptools command adding one remove specific egg isnt difficult correctly removing dependencies came egg without breaking later installs tricky patches welcome btw setuppy develop supports uninstallation although doesnt blessed thing dependencies way also thirdparty tools cheeseshop show egg dependency graphs eg tleggdeps dump information installed eggs eg yolk complicated isnt single global package namespace manage factor virtualenv buildout sandboxes peruser package areas differs rpms debs viewed yep really wanted 07 study virtualenv buildout try design general mechanism managing things vaporware ive calling nest unfortunately ive lost budget working time soon 5 concern pth mechanism used setuptools activation first perceived performance issue increasingly adding every zip file explicitly onto syspath may may red herring tests years back mal first brought distutilssig showed startup cost positively miniscule actual zipfiles used time come conclusion would use something like egginfo egg style general package installation added installation manifest ever write nest use ability also support egg files directories egg files created extensible application platforms like chandler zope trac plugins usually need libraries though rest got added useful whole thing escaped niche like foreign organism added ecosystem natural predators use single pth file control list activated packages produce distributions would prefer magic directory links distributions could dropped similar current best practices linux etcconfd etcprofiled etcxinetdd forth sitepackages directory since long setuptools drop uniquelynamed pth files youre good go 6 need extensibility hooks people want places plug special handling example setuptools record option capture list files installed use subsequent packaging tools want list available setuptools plugin b want hooks postbuildpostinstall actions instead current approach writing custom build class handles patches welcome 7 many wanted ability install files anywhere install tree python package distutils possible removed setuptools security reasons wasnt security manageability eggbased installation means containment analagous gnu stow therefore portability disposability plugins eggs really developed first place custom code still written explicitly popular kidding current best practice include script module package install files designated location personally though tend view applications libraries target specific install locations overreaching bounds stepping sysadmin territory give tools install data dont dump somewhere system think go words hand ive puzzling handle legitimate postinstall features windows wx pywin32 real need actuall install operations copying files pywin32 also registry stuff dont know allow whats sensible without opening huge worms though proposals welcome _______________________________________________ pythondev mailing list zvlllneumpythonorg httpmailpythonorgmailmanlistinfopythondev unsubscribe httpmailpythonorgmailmanoptionspythondevpythondev40tangomucom wed 06 aug 2008 082545 0400 pythondev capsule summary packagingdeployment technology concerns