text_combined: winkler robert civ arlcisd alhauzaarlarmymil seems something made happen alternative number happens mean philosophical stance happens could mean looking wrote note observation number happened wheelers delayed choice experiment might suggest original message nhipljlbixengrorstedu mailtonhipljlbixengrorstedu behalf rich sent saturday august 26 2006 1106 kathryn blackmond laskey doug morgan kathryn blackmond laskey cc faqengrorstedu subject uai determinism verses chance dear kathy think doug pretty much articulated position kathy said following reverse order kathy meaningful definition full knowledge probability assessment would include events occurring times event question suspect caves doesnt see nonsubjective way define full prior knowledge universe temporal relationships events relative meaningful observerindependent definition according specify full knowledge quantum probability assessments mean universe subject relativity theory full prior knowledge means everything past light cone event quantum theory predicts probability state system immediately measurement performed conditional measurement operator applied entire past light cone system instant measurement quantum probabilities objective einstein didnt think jaynes didnt think believed quantum probabilities reflect ignorance fundamental deterministic theory despite considerable effort one yet found theory people havent stopped trying important point based everything e happens point time something r ends happening next instant event deterministically determined e determine seems something made happen even random number generator determines happens next seems generator must generate number right r occurred result part e e determines r consider event r particular number generated everything e occurred r determines r see regress back time indefinitely conclude events deterministically produced hard time conceiving anything else guess einstein jaynes also alternative number happens mean philosophical stance happens could mean looking wrote note feel perhaps humans unevolved grasp determinismindeterminism grasp enough torment notion model external reality assuming one exists amoeba perhaps future species much better us rich thu 07 aug 2008 052104 0400 uai determinism verses chance