and it goes through their, for the rest of their twenties, the rest of their thirties and most of their forties and then suddenly  bang  maybe something ghastly seems to be happening which they are absolutely unaware of, you know, they don't know why they are  crying or, or  er unable to cope with whatever they can't cope with  and that's it, that's them off and they start worrying about er osteoporosis and you know an enormous number of, of now medically defined problems of the menopause, and they may start going on to all sorts of things like hormone replacement therapy or even primrose oil or whatever the hell  and they're sitting there  at an age when they are  fairly loaded up with experience and maturity and all the rest of it  and they don't know what they are doing.