but you know erm if, if, if you look back to the days of the raj  erm it was a  even within my living memory, erm people were joining the armed services or the overseas er er   corp and the civil service overseas i suppose, yeah, er at a, at a fairly  humble level and would either work their way up or they drink themselves stupid or they get mixed up with someone or they, you know  but it was a, a, a  recognized way of, of, of going, you know, either join the services or the