my lord all that follows now is that question  costs in this  my lord there is no doubt that er this is the painful experience for both the plaintiffs and of course for doctor  who is unrepresented and therefore must inevitably feel rather isolated in this matter erm, however in my  there is no reason to er depart from the usual principal of the costs which should follow the event and of course we know as it the loss on the subsidiary appeal and so i don't press the point on that cos the reality as you've already probably anticipated is all the work has been done erm on this appeal the subsidiary appeal i ask, i don't ask for costs on that, in my submission it should be both sides bear their own costs on that, the reason i say that is that there was no, there was no cross appearing in respect on it in effect, cos after all, all you were doing was er trying to get the same as the other side if we lost, so no worm of can of beans can be done by doctor  i had one parallel in my whole skeleton on that, er, but we have substantially succeeded on the main issue and so i, i would ask that costs in favour of the plaintiffs on, on that and here and indeed below.