but anyway, talking about engineering as a whole, quite obviously it's interesting to go back a bit because i'm always interested in the way the institutions actually started because er  there's a lovely story about er, the stephenson brothers and tho ,ju , having just come down from scarborough on a mini-holiday we stopped at york and i went over a great big museum there, and quite obviously seeing the marvellous locomotives you realise that george stevenson had er, a lot to do with that.