but i mean they actually do work, er ten percent gross yield and erm if you asked me to explain how they get the ten percent, i'd have to use some notes they gave to me cos it's, cos it's complicated, but they use derivatives, and they buy in er in the shares and options market, and erm the company i'm thinking of actually own the shares, but you take options on them, and they take commission on the options, they also take dividends, er and by the time you've read the, the, the spiel, it sounds a bit like you've fitted all these petrol savers to your car and you're driving to nottingham, and the tank overflows, it's that sort of