in other words, i c i,ingaselectric , a e i, all the big firms, all the er coal mines, all the british rail, well british rail in those days, and these large firms trained large numbers of apprentices and then after the five years they tipped you out, i'm sorry i'm going back a long while, into what they call an improver status and then you could either come back to the firm or you could go, stay where you were.