Liz Ogbu: So Lisa, Apple is on target to become carbon neutral across its entire business and manufacturing supply chain by 2030. Can you explain exactly what that means? Lisa Jackson: Sure. So today Apple is carbon neutral for all of our own operations. And we're running on 100 percent renewable energy for our corporate campuses, for our stores and for our data centers. So we know how to do this work. The challenge for 2030 is to convert our supply chain, and that work has already begun. We already have 70 suppliers, over eight gigawatts of energy coming online in our supply chain, and then our last piece will be to convert the energy that our customers use to charge our devices to clean energy. LO: What are some of the biggest changes that Apple's going to need to make in its business operations in order to be able to achieve those goals? LJ: So imagine if instead of mining material to go into Apple products, we actually started with recycled material. So we're not going all the way back to the mine through smelting, transportation, processing. Instead, we're really talking about reprocessing to some degree and putting that material right back into products -- super important with things like conflict metals or rare earths. So Apple has been doing that work now for several years. We've actually promised that we want to make all of our products out of recycled and renewable materials. And so that investment also means we get to take away all the carbon emissions associated with everything up until the point of the recycled material. LO: So it strikes me that you actually hold a really interesting perspective. You know, you're now at Apple and, like, deep in the business world around these things, but formerly, you actually led the US Environmental Protection Agency under the Obama administration, so you've seen the government side as well. What, in your mind, is the right way to look at the respective roles of the state and the market in fighting the climate crisis? LJ: I don't think there's anything that business can do that replaces the role of government and leadership. Yes, I ran the EPA, but the other part of my history is I worked there almost 20 years before I became the head of the EPA. And you see firsthand, right, that only government is really charged with protecting its citizens. We always think protection, and we think the military, but I think the protection of the Environmental Protection Agency or the Air Quality Board in California or a local health department is as important to the day-to-day life of the people in that jurisdiction as anything that the other security-type protection can provide. Now, business is a different story. I think business has an incredibly important role to play in leading, especially at this time. So when Apple said its goal is 2030 carbon neutral -- obviously the UN is saying 2050 carbon neutral -- we decided to challenge ourselves to go as fast as we could possibly do it so that other businesses wouldn't have an excuse to say, "I need longer. I need much, much longer." I think it's great to see this moment where suddenly there seems to be a realization that climate change policy cannot be foisted on others, but that, in fact, it has to be organic, you know, for lack of a better word. And it's not an either-or. It's always been this weird, you know, belief that we're taught from little that you can either be successful or you can do the right thing. There's no difference between the two; it's a false choice. LO: Although a lot of us have been talking about justice for some time, it is only recently that I think this idea of justice as it relates to the environment and climate is making appearance in a forum such as this. You've personally described systemic racism and climate change as interconnected issues, and I think it would be great to hear more. LJ: To me, they're just the same thing. There is no climate justice without real justice. There is no climate change remedy that is going to be made and stick that doesn't involve justice. And sometimes, more and more, I'm starting to think that we shouldn't attack climate change, we should attack justice and injustice, and if we did, climate change would take care of itself. For me, it's always come down to restoring people to the center of the discussion of solutions and restoring representation for the communities most impacted by climate change at the table of solution-making. LO: Well, thank you. I appreciate it. It's been a real pleasure to speak with you today, and I look forward to seeing how you advanced the efforts you talked about. LJ: And thank you for the voice you've been. I think it's super important that leadership look like us, but also sound like you. So thank you.