133_https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOVj0FoOxpk&t=279s_reducing recidivism
gpt
Thanks for coming in today. I guess you've, uh, sat in that seat with lots of people like me in the past.
human
Mm.
gpt
Yeah. And you have some ideas about that and some experiences about that. So today I wanna- be good for us to talk about that and, um, I'm really interested to know what you've been thinking about in terms of what you may wanna change in your life 'cause we're gonna be working together for a while here.
human
Right. Neat. What, um, what have I changed, what am I—
gpt
What you've been thinking about, um, over the last little while about getting your life back on track. 'Cause I noticed you've—
human
I've been thinking about how easy it would be to deal P again.
gpt
Yeah.
human
I mean, I've been thinking about, um, how I could actually set myself up the right way doing it the wrong way.
gpt
Sure. So what I'm picking up is-is that-that-that's a life that you know a lot about.
human
Mm.
gpt
And you can make lots of money and set yourself up well. What's the other side, because I guess when I talk to guys like yourself who have done time, often they're thinking about actually, mm, maybe life can be with different. So I'm wondering where-where you're at with the kind of thinking about—
human
Well, at the end of, you know, that last week inside, I was- I had that kind of, okay, what's next buzz? And, you know, it just doesn't work out here.
gpt
Okay.
human
I don't have a, uh, uh, I don't know what that is.
gpt
Sure. So life on the outside is pretty different than the kind of-
human
Yes.
gpt
-the expectation of life on the inside something?
human
Yeah, it's worse.
gpt
Yeah?
human
Yeah.
gpt
So tell me how you've been managing. 'Cause I don't know if you'd been back dealing? How have you been managing to-to-to—
human
I haven't yet, I mean-
gpt
Okay.
human
-the, uh, the offer's there.
gpt
Yeah?
human
Um, I don't know why I haven't said that I will yet but I mean-
gpt
Uh, tell me-
human
-it's there.
gpt
It's there and-and-and you've a lot of contacts?
human
Yeah.
gpt
You've been in the system, so lots of context. So this isn't a new challenge for you.
human
No.
gpt
So what stopped you over the last-- How long have you been out now?
human
How long have I been out?
gpt
Yeah.
human
Three weeks, one day.
gpt
Three weeks, isn't it?
human
Three weeks, one day.
gpt
So what's been there? What's it about that you haven't done in three weeks one day?
human
I don't know.
gpt
22 days you've actually made a decision not to-to pick up your old life and continue on.
human
Um, I'd- I- you know, I kind of told myself not to, you know, just before I left. And then I'm just kind of with it and I don't quite know why. [clears throat] I dunno, if, uh, there's no real reason why I haven't yet. It's just that I don't- I just don't think it'll work the way I always dream it will you know, I see myself up like, whatever, if I do that again, the next leg is a long one. A real long one.
gpt
Okay.
human
And I-I can't go back there. There's no way I'm going back there.
gpt
Right. So the one hand you've-you-you could sit yourself up and-and take the risk, but on the other hand, you know, that actually it might not last?
human
No, never lasts.
gpt
Never lasts. Mm. You seem like a bit of a crossroads to me.
human
Yep. I've been in crossroads for 12 years.
gpt
Mm. But there've been times when those crossroads would be more sort of focused than other times.
human
Yeah. And- [crosstalk]
gpt
Yeah. And it sounds like maybe like-
human
-sort of opposite, yeah.
gpt
Yeah.
human
You know, we're in the middle, you know, and it's actually at the moment, I guess.
gpt
Yeah.
human
But I don't know. You know, that's quite clear that no fucking idea.
gpt
Okay. Okay. So—
human
Do you have an idea?
gpt
No. Well, I've-I've got lots of ideas, but I'm really interested to hearing your ideas kind of first though because you know, and there might be some things that we can work on.
human
Mm.
gpt
But I guess what I'm really interested in is-is you've made a commitment 22 days, drug-free. Haven't gone back into that lifestyle. What-what's keeping you, 'cause you're at the crossroads, you kind of just pause there at the moment. I'm not sure about this other bit over here. What keeping you in that place?
human
Fiona?
gpt
Yeah?
human
Yeah.
gpt
Tell me about Fiona?
human
She's told me that it's over if I do it. You know, I mean, she-- What tell you about, Fiona I mean she's been with me. She's the one who stayed through all the shit. And I owe her-
gpt
Okay.
human
-something.
gpt
Okay. So you've been with Fiona for how long?
human
12 years.
gpt
12 years. Okay. So she's stood by you then for the time, [crosstalk] but this time she said, it happens again I'm out of here?
human
Yeah. She's actually got the black and white line down now.
gpt
Okay. And it sounds like you're listening to that black and white line.
human
It's pretty she- you know, she could be pretty full-on.
gpt
Yeah, yeah.
human
Yeah, so it's hard to ignore that line.
gpt
Yeah.
human
I mean. And it comes with a whole lot of different rules, and you know, she's never been quite like she is now.
gpt
Okay. So something's changed in your relationship between you, yeah?
human
Yeah. I think she has. I don't think I have.
gpt
Okay. So what's Fiona want you from you?
human
She just wants me. I mean, she just wants someone to be there. Me. She-she remembers me and she wants- she wants him.
gpt
She wants him. So which him does she want, Daryl?
human
The one that, you know—
gpt
Does she want the- did she want the-the him that she fell in love with and saw great things in?
human
Yeah, that's the one.
gpt
Or does she want the-the-the-the him that's- that keeps on getting into trouble?
human
No, no. No one would want him. I don't want him. He's a fuckwit, right? She wants the one that she fell in love with.
gpt
Okay.
human
Yeah.
gpt
So what's it gonna take to reclaim this Daryl that she fell in love with?
human
If I had the answer to that, I wouldn't need to be sitting here.
gpt
Sure, yeah.
human
And I mean, I honest- I don't know, man. I don't know. I-I wish I knew somewhere I could start that, you know, could give it to her, but I-I can't. I-I don't know.
gpt
All right. Well, let's-let's just play with this idea a little bit, Daryl. So what did Fiona fall in love with? What were the qualities of Daryl that she said, "This is him"?
human
I was pretty romantic. I mean, I was pretty quite smooth, and, um, you know, I was on top of my game, like, she- and she loved it. And we used to laugh in the [unintelligible 00:06:45], you know? And just- it was always really sweet, and people used to say, "Oh, man, you two. You two have just got it," you know? And we lost it, so whatever that was, that's what she wants. We were young. How do you become young? Uh, you know, I'm old, and we'll keep growing old, but you know?
gpt
I know.
human
Like if I'm not careful, I will be.
gpt
Sure. Everyone will age, but that will happen on time.
human
Yeah, certainly.
gpt
Um, but that's okay. So-so it's she fell in love with this, the sense of fun, the sense of Daryl, and things have changed, but she's still with you?
human
Yeah.
gpt
Yeah?
human
Yeah.
gpt
Yeah. And you're still with her?
human
Yeah, yep.
gpt
Yeah. So catch me up with the conversations you've had with Fiona about this crossroads you're at. You know, these 22 days, you haven't gone back, you've coming out and you're not back? You could pick up this dealing quite easily and probably some workout here tomorrow and get back into it.
human
You know what? She hasn't even talked about the dealing, like, she won't even broach that subject. That's how black and white she is. She's- she'll be- she offers suggestions, you know? What I could do, and- or I kind of go with that, but none of them are-- You know, it's lovely that she's really finding things, but they're not the things. I mean, it-- I started kind of placating her and making it okay to keep giving me suggestions, but like, I need to come up with something because it's like awesome love, but you know, not in love, and she's getting sick of it already.
gpt
Okay. All right. So-so back together, things are starting to get tense at home, and your relationship a little bit?
human
A little bit that. Yeah, little-little bit tense. Yeah, that's fair.
gpt
Yeah. Don't put words in your mouth. I'm sure if that is—
human
No, they are.
gpt
Oh, yeah? Yeah?
human
I mean, not like they have been because we've only just started on the new road, but I mean, yeah, tense is the right word.
gpt
Second, I'd like to talk, Daryl, about this all- whole idea, that's this crossroads idea, yep? So on the one hand here, you've got this 12 year history of being in the other system and done some time and being away from Fiona, but you're now back, sitting back together, and you've got some choice about where to go. So, in that 'where to go', what ideas have you been thinking about in terms of where this-this Daryl, non-dealing [crosstalk] guy—
human
Well, I don't know. I haven't got little, um, nuggets of where I could go. I've just got like this feeling that I should go somewhere.
gpt
Okay. Yep. So a part of you knows you need to go something different, but the direction doesn't seem to be that clear at the moment?
human
Yeah.
gpt
It [unintelligible 00:09:33] picking up?
human
Yeah. No idea.
gpt
No idea. Okay. So I'm wondering, you've been in the system a while. You're now 34, is it right from the pick-up?
human
[nods].
gpt
Yeah. So, you know, often at 34, guys start to think about being with a girl in their life and what's important. And-and you would have also been part- not as a guy, so they've actually made some shifts and changes and thought, "Time to move on".
human
Yeah. Well, um—
gpt
And now you've got—
human
Not many.
gpt
Not many?
human
Mm-hmm.
gpt
But some.
human
Um, oh, I've got. Yeah, one. [chuckles]
gpt
One?
human
One.
gpt
Yeah.
human
Mm, yeah.
gpt
Yeah?
human
Okay, so, um—
gpt
Tell me something about that.
human
Well, he-he was- he was inside with me the first time I was ever inside, and now he's a drug counselor.
gpt
Okay.
human
So, he's the- he did it.
gpt
He did it?
human
I don't know how the fuck he did that, but, 'cause because he wasn't even a real addict, he was just-- Well, I mean, I don't know. He's very good with people.
gpt
Yeah.
human
Really good at talking, and, uh, but anyway, I don't know how he did it.
gpt
Cool. So how interested would you be to find out more information about how he did it? 'Cause I'm thinking about this is someone who you know, you've done time with, got a relationship.
human
Yeah, but I can't ever be a drug counselor.
gpt
No, I'm not suggesting you-- No, not about being a drug counselor, but about he made that transition from-from being involved in crime-
human
Yeah.
gpt
-to a transition about being in a different place.
human
Yeah. I think he would have found some higher power. They find-- I'm not gonna find one of them.
gpt
Okay, no 12-step higher power idea?
human
Yeah.
gpt
So that might work for him, but what might work for you?
human
I don't know. That's why I'm here.
gpt
Sure.
human
I don't know what that is.
gpt
Okay, so part of being here with me, and the work we might do, will be to find- try and find- search for that-
human
Okay.
gpt
-thing. Whatever it is.
human
Good luck.
gpt
Well, it's a search, isn't it?
human
Yeah, I don't mean to be rude-
gpt
No.
human
-but I do mean it's a big ask.
gpt
Yep, it is a big ask. So what qualities would you need to have to-to go there?
human
Fucking guts.
gpt
Guts? Yeah?
human
Is it a quality?
gpt
I think it is.
human
Yeah, I'd need some of them.
gpt
Yeah? So you're the sort of guy, Daryl, with guts?
human
Am I?
gpt
Yeah.
human
No, not yet.
gpt
Not yet?
human
Well, no I'm not.
gpt
Yeah?
human
No, I don't have that-that-that much courage.\
gpt
Yet you're sitting here with me today-
human
Oh, I have to.
gpt
-and-and-and you're talking about stuff.
human
Yeah.
gpt
Well, you're sitting here, and you're talking with me-
human
Oh, okay.
gpt
-about stuff that's-that's quite deep-
human
Yeah.
gpt
-in a way. Um, that takes guts. That takes courage.
human
All right.
gpt
In my view, it does.
human
Okay.
gpt
'Cause you could've come in here and said-
human
It's a bit awkward.
gpt
-"Look, Ken, you know, I'll come in, report in, I'm outta here."
human
Ah, yeah. I could've done that
gpt
You could've done that, but you're not. So I'm wondering what's different? 'Cause you may have done that in the past, I don't know, Daryl, with other people like me, but-but sounds like something's different this time.
human
I'm older, you know? It's not as much fun.
gpt
Yeah?
human
I used to take the piss outta you guys-
gpt
Yeah.
human
-all day long. We all do, but-
gpt
Sure.
human
-it's not funny. I mean, and you're-you're a good guy, I imagine. I mean, in fact, you don't deserve my shit. I just-- I don't know. Good luck.
gpt
I kind of see a sense of sadness there when you have to kind of think about this.
human
Oh, sadness. You know, I don't wanna wallow, you know? You know, you've gotta take, you know-- You make your own opportunity in life, don't you?
gpt
Yeah.
human
I just never did.
gpt
Okay. So I'm interested in this idea, let's, uh-- Opportunities come and go all the time.
human
Do they?
gpt
They do.
human
All right. Not to me.
gpt
Well you said before you had an opportunity to pick up and start dealing again.
human
Oh, yeah. Oh, heaps of those opportunities.
gpt
And-and so-so-so there's opportunities- there's opportunities in one world, and I'm wondering about what might make it hard to see opportunities in a different world?
human
Yeah, well, the different world isn't offering me opportunities. The different world is offering me a night shift, and minimum wage, and, you know, nothing. So it's like, set-set yourself up, set your goal up, or, um, don't, and that's your-your pro-social living, and that's your, you know, old behaviors.
gpt
Sure, sure. You're in the system-
human
Mm-hmm.
gpt
-you're not in the system. Pick up that, where is it gonna take you?
human
The system?
gpt
Yeah, what-what's gonna happen if you start dealing again?
human
Man, I've been fighting that system-
gpt
Yeah.
human
-and all it takes me back is to the-the inside-
gpt
Okay, okay.
human
-I mean—
gpt
So-So again, I'm-I'm wondering about this other world, and you're saying it doesn't look to attractive at the moment.
human
Well, I can't see it.
gpt
You can't se it?
human
You know what, if I knew what they'd look like-
gpt
Yeah?
human
-I-I might, you know, buy that.
gpt
Yeah? You just described to me how it looked like a minute ago.
human
Did I?
gpt
Minimum wage-
human
Oh yeah.
gpt
-night shift, petrol station.
human
Yeah, that's not much fun. That doesn't look very good.
gpt
Yeah?
human
Yeah, that looks really hard.
gpt
Yeah? It is really hard.
human
I know that's the right thing, uh, don't get me wrong.
gpt
Sure.
human
That is gut right there, going to a job you hate, going home, cooking yet missus a dinner, looking after your kids. I mean, that is-- That's what it real mean does, but I don't have that-- Th-those guts to do- to do what you do.
gpt
Sure. We talked about courage before and you've got the guts to be talking with me about this stuff today, and I'm wondering if you actually do have some courage to think about these ideas. I'm not saying that pumping gas at minimum wage is where you wanna go, but-but the guts to actually start steeping into this other world. I wonder if you do have, I'm-I'm-I'm just not sure.
human
I-- Hmm, maybe.
gpt
Maybe. You're not convinced at the moment, I understand that and, um—
human
No. You know, convince me because, you know, I kind of want to be.
gpt
Sure. Well, it's hard to me to convince you-
human
Right.
gpt
-'cause this is your life and this is your story, and you-you've got to walk your life and I can't walk your life for you. I only walk my. And so, but I can walk with you on this life to try and think about-- 'Cause I-I-- You know, I-I've no interest in actually you falling over and going back into-into a lifestyle a crime 'cause I know where it'll take you. And I'm hearing that with your relationship, where it's going to take your relationship too, [unintelligible 00:16:39] got the bottom line drawn pretty clearly.
human
Mm.
gpt
So it seems like what's gonna push in this direction, just tip that balance a little bit to give this other world of go? Because it is new, it's different. It means doing stuff, a lot of stuff actually that-that's kind of mundane.
human
It is the little things, yeah, like waking up, and having a cup of tea and sitting on the porch is kind of cool.
gpt
It's kind of cool?
human
Yeah.
gpt
Not part of on the wire?
human
No, you don't get to sit outside-
gpt
No?
human
-on the porch.
gpt
You don't. And who's sitting on the porch with you?
human
No one. It's morning, it's just me.
gpt
Mm-hmm.
human
Birds, trees, yada yada.
gpt
Cool. So I'm picking up this world actually has the freedom to you to be your own man?
human
Mm, you know, maybe.
gpt
Maybe?
human
I don't-- You know, that-that was nice. If it was full of bits like that, sure, but I mean, you know, eventually you have to go off to your job and-
gpt
Yeah?
human
-you know, pay your-your wages, I mean your-your mortgage and-and-
gpt
Yeah.
human
-it's just massive.
gpt
Yeah it is. It is.
human
It is.
gpt
Absolutely massive. And, uh-- So, is there a challenge you're up to, to start creating some-some-some of that sort of world for Fiona? 'Cause I'm hearing that—
human
You know, people like me are unaccepted into that world though. You know? I've got-- I don't have qualifications. All my mates are in Australia working awesome jobs, mining for 160K a year, you know? Just being men digging holes. Like, if I could do that, yeah, all good but fuck, I have just come out of prison, I don't have any NCEA. I, uh, I had one opportunity and I fucked that because I can't do night shift 'cause I'm lazy. You know? Maybe the world is giving me opportunities and I just don't need them. Maybe I can't do that.
gpt
Sure. So what I'm hearing is, you're not convinced at the moment.
human
No, I'm definitely not convinced.
gpt
No. So what would convince you to-to make that shift? 'Cause I hear a lot of kind of-- And in this hard, like, y-you've done time and then once you've got a record, the employers- you know, we know, I know that. That's-that's not easy. You can't just wonder into a job, a high-paying job and go, "Pick me, pick me, pick me." I know that.
human
No.
gpt
You know that.
human
Yeah, I know.
gpt
So, um-- And-and maybe it's about small steps and first steps.
human
Yeah. I mean, yeah, it is obviously, it is first steps, but I mean, what's that? What's the first step into the pro-social life?
gpt
Well, you trying to get a job, maybe and get into some routine.
human
I just know if I get a job that I hate, I just won't do it.
gpt
Okay.
human
You know, I can make in an hour what I can make in a night or a week of nights. It's pretty-- You know, from where I'm from that a really-- You know, there's no decision at all, that's just like, what are you up to if you don't?
gpt
Yeah. I'm confused though at the moment because you're saying, "Yeah, I could make in a night what you make in a week," but you've haven't. 22-22 days-
human
Yeah.
gpt
-and you haven't done that. So-so tell me what that's about.
human
I just told myself I wouldn't this time and then Fiona said, "You will not" this time.
gpt
So you told yourself you wouldn't, so you're once you- you're the sort of guy that once you make a decision you're gonna go, you're staunch with that decision?
human
Yeah, even if it's the wrong one, yes.
gpt
Oh, it's a decision whether it's right or wrong-- It's not gonna be-
human
Yeah, but I'm that kinda guy.
gpt
Yeah, you're that kinda guy okay, so once you make a decision. So you made a decision that you're not gonna- you're not gonna go back to dealing?
human
Oh no there wasn't a decision to made, I just said, "I won't yet".
gpt
Yet.
human
Yeah, I said yet.
gpt
You're keeping the door open-
human
Yeah.
gpt
-at the moment, is what I'm picking up.
human
I hate that.
gpt
Yeah, okay, so that will be a call you-you've got to make.
human
Mm.
gpt
I'm-I'm not gonna- I'm not gonna make that call. You'll make that call, but there's a consequence of making that call, and there's big consequences more time probably and Fiona not being around. On the other hand, what I'm picking up is a call to-to do some- do some stuff that may not be racy and exciting and in the big dollars, but me being with Fiona and engaging in this transition into a-a different life.
human
Mm, yeah.
gpt
Yeah.
human
And we're still no closer.
gpt
No.
human
But I mean yeah it's there.
gpt
But we're talking about it.
human
Yeah.
gpt
So how much time have you been talking about this-
human
Oh, fuck.
gpt
-position?
human
With anyone other than Fiona? No time at all, I'd say for about 10 hours with you.
gpt
Okay-okay, so the fact we're even having a conversation about it, it's kind of interesting?
human
Yeah.
gpt
Yeah, so I wanna summarize, Daryl, what-what I picked up so far and then just so I make sure I'm really listening to you well 'cause it's important, isn't it? 'Cause, you know, it's important you're listened to-
human
Mm.
gpt
-by people me. So what I'm picking up is-is-is that if you've-you've got this long 12-year history, you can make some big money or you can dealing, doing crime, that stuff, I'm-I'm picking up that Fiona's set the bottom line, is if you go back in that lifestyle, she's out of here, yet she stayed here for 13, 12, 13 years?
human
Yeah, 12, nearly 13.
gpt
Nearly 13 years, so and-and so-so she stuck with you, and I'm pick up that's important to you, um, and-and-and yet you talk about it, it just seems easy, this bit over here, this whole lifestyle.
human
Mm.
gpt
This other lifestyle over here though when we talk about, actually thinking about, you know, doing stuff, doing the stuff that-that everybody else generally does, [unintelligible 00:22:30] will gets on doing, it doesn't have that same kinda seem to excitement, and it doesn't seem to be a-a starting point for you over here.
human
Uh, that it-it does kinda seem exciting.
gpt
Oh, it does?
human
It does, because it's so different.
gpt
Right, okay.
human
And I'm kinda over that one.
gpt
Okay, you're over that one, okay. So, let's start to think about what might be the first step.
human
Yeah.
gpt
Yeah, with while going in, I think you got a high steep.
human
Okay, I.
gpt
Yeah, a steep, you see before you had a mate who turned his back on offending.
human
Yeah.
gpt
And for him this 12-- You wondered that the 12-step stuff working for him.
human
Yeah-yeah, it does work for him.
gpt
Yeah, maybe that, I'm wondering the conve- the conversation with him that might be around actually how did he do it, and how did he stay without slipping back across the line, 'cause like-like get this crossroads you've got the path and go the other path and go here, so I'm wondering about conversation with him, what would it take to have that conversation?
human
Uh, ringing him.
gpt
Ringing him?
human
Mm, yeah.
gpt
Yeah. You seem a little surprised, I'm-I'm [crosstalk] wondering about, surprising face.
human
You-you know, it was a long time ago that we were inside. I just know that's what he's doing. It would be pretty odd calling but the- he'd probably be okay with it.
gpt
So possibility to call?
human
Possibility to call yeah.
gpt
Yeah there's possible.
human
Yeah.
gpt
Yeah, okay, and Fiona's been pretty staunch.
human
Mm.
gpt
Is someone who actually who has some pretty clear ideas about where she wants you as a couple to go-
human
Mm.
gpt
-I get a sense.
human
Yeah.
gpt
Yeah.
human
Well, I just have to do what I'm told. I don't know.
gpt
Yeah, but I'm picking up though behind that doing what you're told, she's got some hopes.
human
Oh, yeah, I was being, um, chipping, I mean, yeah she has more hopes than me, you know.
gpt
So what will it take for you to start thinking about some of her hopes and sharing some of her hopes?
human
Um, like I do- I do but what it would take, you know, I mean, that's pretty freaking scary shit.
gpt
Yeah?
human
Yeah. And I would never admit to that.
gpt
You said before you're sort of guy that once you make a decision you're pretty staunch with that decision.
human
Yeah.
gpt
So if you made a decision to go there, it might be a scary as shit but again it seems that, uh, it could work if see it look, this is important, this relationship's important, let me go for—
human
Yeah, but my-when I made my decision to not do that yet like I was very clear I understood I know that picture. If I'm gonna make a decision to do this, I kinda need to really-really know what that is. You know, not only to talk I mean-
gpt
Sure.
human
-what is the whole plan to-to call-call up you know and say, hey bro, hey bro, uh, how did you do that? I mean, really? Is it—
gpt
Yeah. That's-that's what I'm thinking- I'm thinking actually. Here's someone that actually has made a different decision then, uh, it sounds like that's the pathway that starts over here and I'm wondering. I wonder whether you might have wisdom about what it's like to t-to tread that path.
human
Yeah, like, I guess I could be wondering that too.
gpt
So you know there's a part of you going, I was thinking in this place that's hard work.
human
Hmm.
gpt
And this is a pretty lonely road to-to walk by yourself. I'm wondering who else might be around you that might actually walk with you?
human
There's Fiona.
gpt
Yeah.
human
[unintelligible 00:26:37] getting out so what-what he did. Um, dad's only as mean. There's Fiona.
gpt
You know maybe they'll walk that road with you too.
human
Yeah, okay, uh, all right, yeah. All right.
gpt
There's a couple of people.
human
Yeah.
gpt
If you want to do that. It gotta be your call.