100_https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lq3znGhveo_reducing recidivism
gpt
There, um, what brings you in today?
human
I don't know. I'm just having a little bit of, uh, having a little bit of trouble dealing with, uh, my criminal history and, uh, you know, trying to stay on the right path, but, you know, um, it's just- it gets, you know, it gets kind of overwhelming, you know. Um, I really wanna be, you know, a good productive member of society, but at the same time, you know, I got this background that nobody will overlook, you know. So it kinda makes it like, well, what, you know, do I go back to what I know?I mean, you can only work for $5, $6, $7 an hour for so long, and it's really frustrating. It's causing, uh, some anger issues to resurface and some depression to resurface and, um, you know, and, um, I don't wanna fall back, you know.
gpt
It's really getting in the way of you becoming who you wanna be.
human
Yes, it is.
gpt
Yeah. So what-what-what about your criminal record is blocking you from getting where you wanna be?
human
I don't know what about it is, um—
gpt
There's a, uh, your record has a conviction?
human
Yeah. It has a felony conviction on it.
gpt
Okay. Ah, there's-
human
And, uh—
gpt
-the big trouble. Yeah.
human
Yeah, it is. And it's- I hadn't anticipated that it would have been-- You know, so at the time, it was just like, "Okay, cool. I'm not going to jail."
gpt
Mm-hmm.
human
You know, and, um, now, it's like, okay, so this is more like a life sentence than it was a four-year sentence that they were offering. You know, I mean, I think it would have been bad either way, but, um, I hadn't anticipated that this was gonna be this difficult, especially since I went back to school and, you know, uh, got a degree and actually want to do, you know, some, um, corporate level or, you know, professional type of work.
gpt
Mm-hmm. So when you, um, when you put in applications or anything like that, the felony con-conviction, whether you know it or not, seems to knock you out of the ballpark. You're not even considered as an applicant?
human
No, I'm not. Um, in situations where I don't know about it, I don't know about, I mean, if I'm not considered because of that, I probably-- Um, you know, that sucks too. Don't get me wrong. I mean, I-I don't- I don't get callbacks a lot because of that issue-
gpt
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
human
- I'm sure. The ones that really count are-are-are, you know, are kind of just, you know, uh, making me so angry and, you know, kind of spilling over into the rest of my life or the ones that I get face face, especially after a really good interview. And, you know, most of the times, I interview extremely well. And, um, it's, you know, I get the vibe that the job is offered almost halfway through the interview because, you know, they start telling me about what I'll be doing and what I'll be getting.And then, you know, when it comes to sign on the paperwork and I believe in honesty, so I tell them, you know, hey, look, this is what you're gonna find, you know, and, um, try to explain it. It's just-it's almost like night and day.
gpt
Mm-hmm.
human
Black and white. It just stops right there. "I'm sorry. I can't really do much for you. I-- You have to go," you know, and it's—
gpt
So do you- do you, um, put out there about the felony conviction before you even go for the interview?
human
No. I mean, there's different situations, you know. Sometimes they ask and, you know, I'll say something like, you know, "We'll discuss at interview". Uh, sometimes, there are situations where if I probably put that, I don't get a callback and those situations I don't know about. You know, but there are also times where I get an interview through, um, you know, uh, uh, some sort of connection or something, or like a buddy of mine or a family member will send me on an interview. You know, I don't have to fill it out- fill out an application for that. They just usually, you know, give you the interview. And at the end-
gpt
Seems like it's a done deal.
human
Yeah. It seems like it's a done deal. You just have to go through the motion of having the interview. And then-
gpt
Mm-hmm.
human
-when I go through the interview and it goes well, and they're like, "Okay, well, you know, I think we can do something" and then, "Here, sign this, sign that," and the other thing. And it's like, but we just had a great, you know, I mean, I qualify. Like what does that have to-- Seven years ago, six years ago, what does it have to do with anything? Now, especially because, you know, the type of conviction, it wasn't a non- it wasn't a violent conviction. It's not like I'm a danger to the staff around me. It's not like it's a, you know, a theft type of thing. It was, you know, it was a possession, you know what I mean?
gpt
Mm-hmm.
human
And
gpt
So you didn't hurt anybody.
human
No, I didn't.
gpt
You didn't hurt anything, right?
human
It's really frustrating because-
gpt
Yeah.
human
-it's almost like I-I don't wanna give up, but it's like, I'm not given any other choice, you know?
gpt
Yeah, 'cause you're-you're, especially with going back to school and having done all that footwork and stuff. I mean, you really have something to offer somebody.
human
I do, yeah.
gpt
Yeah. And, um, and at the time the big crisis was actually maybe prison and all the crisis around the arrest and-and, uh, you know, it's like you're a leper and the leper colony.
human
Mm-hmm.
gpt
Um, have there been any times when you've started the interview with that conversation so that you don't even have to go through the whole thing and then get rejected?
human
Not that I can think of, no.
gpt
Mm-hmm.
human
I think—
gpt
What do you think would happen if you did that?
human
Probably get booted out right away-
gpt
Mm-hmm.
human
-you know? Um—
gpt
Would that be, um, what would they be like versus getting through this great interview, knowing you're-you're good for the job and all that kind of stuff, and then they boot you out?
human
Well, it's-it's sucks either way. You know what I mean?
gpt
Mm-hmm. It's, uh, I mean the lesser of two evils is that what we're getting at-
human
Mm-hmm.
human
-you know what I mean? If it's gonna make things more efficient like as if-if you're what you're trying to say is if that's something that I could do and then if they get past it, then now I know that there's an actual intention by the hiring people to hire me.
gpt
Right. If that's a deal-breaker and you both know it from the very beginning, I'm wondering if then really the interview is really something else. I mean, whether they get the job would truly be based on the interview and not-not your criminal record.
human
Yeah, I think as far as maybe efficiency, you know, weeding out the things, not wasting my time, you know, but I had to tell you something, a lot of the people that don't care about that type of thing-
gpt
Mm-hmm.
human
-are not the sort of jobs that I really wanna be doing. You know what I mean? Um, I don't know, it's just really frustrating.
gpt
Not like you're working for the government or for a bank or, you know, the FBI where- those are not things you're applying for. They're jobs where you would wonder why a-a non-violent felony would even--
human
Be an issue.
gpt
Right.
human
Right, and then the other thing is anybody that I might tell that to-
gpt
Mm-hmm.
human
-that doesn't care-
gpt
Mm-hmm.
human
-are probably not jobs that, you know, are worth going to get the interview.
gpt
Mm-hmm, you didn't go to college for that.
human
Right.
gpt
Mm.
human
Do you know what I mean? If I want to work at a moving company and I tell them off the bat, you know, from the gate, I tell them I have a felony conviction, just so you know before the interview and they don't really mind. I mean, that's great, you know, but at the same time, I don't- I'm not looking to be a mover or-
gpt
Mm-hmm.
human
-a burger flipper or something like that. Not that there's anything wrong with it, but I feel like I have a little bit more to offer-
gpt
Mm-hmm.
human
-you know, and, um, I don't know, it's a really, it's-it's like being caught between a rock and a hard place.
gpt
Mm-hmm. So, what have you looked into about, um, you know, advocacy in that area or expungement or anything like that?
human
I have done, and my eyes have, you know, just become like mush after all the reading I've done on this situation.
gpt
What did you find out?
human
I found out that I have the type of, um, felony that's expungable, I don't even have the type that's sealable. I have apparently the type that has to go on the governor's desk next to death row, you know, inmates or the candidates for, um, a gov- a governor's, uh, pardon. I-- That's what it all boils down to is that I have a class one felony-
gpt
Uh-huh.
human
-that needs to be, if any, you know, options, the only option I have is for, um, governor's clemency and I can't figure out why because it's-it's, I mean, I just, I maybe there is a loophole somewhere, I don't know.
gpt
I-I didn't know that. So I, you know, I know a little bit about it, um, and not, yeah. So that's-that's very interesting. Oh, what about advocacy groups?
human
I've looked into, um, a fe- um, I've looked into a few groups that are supposedly helping convicted felons get-
gpt
Mm-hmm.
human
-work.
gpt
Mm-hmm.
human
Um, again, the-the only-- I mean, I think what I saw was a whole bunch of, you know, dead end jobs.
gpt
Mm-hmm.
human
And the other thing that I saw was that it was very politically charged. You know, I didn't think that, um, I was, uh, you know, allowed to kind of get an interview right away with one of those counselors that they offer. Um, I-- it just didn't seem like a type of place that was willing to help, you know. And-and, uh, I saw that there was a lot of, um, I wouldn't say racism but I would say a little bit of racial favor, I suppose. And, uh, I found it really hard to get in and to get an interview with a counselor to match me up with a job. Um, I think that those-those types of groups are cool if they work. I just haven't had any luck with, um- at working with- through that group.
gpt
Mm-hmm.
human
You know?
gpt
Mm-hmm.
human
Um, you know, I don't know. I don't know if there's anything else out there.
gpt
Mm-hmm. So you're-you're Middle Eastern. So you wonder-- I-I bet you've had experiences where you really have experienced some absolute racism and prejudice because of that.
human
Mm-hmm.
gpt
And then, um, you walk into these places and they might just be almost storefront-
human
Mm-hmm.
gpt
-type places. And the job market is terrible.
human
Right. It's-it's, uh-- There is a lot stacked up against me.
gpt
Mm-hmm.
human
Let's just put it like that.
gpt
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
human
You know, uh, but that isn't—
gpt
What do you have going for you?
human
Well, that's what-- yeah. That's-- I mean, uh, I'm able to, um-- I'm able to carry a conversation.
gpt
Mm-hmm.
human
So at some point, I would imagine that maybe I strike up conversation with the right person-
gpt
Mm-hmm.
human
-that would probably want to hire me regardless of that sort of thing. Um, I think that at the this point in time, that it doesn't really matter what degree you have. I don't believe that it matters where you went to school. I think it's all about who you know. You know, we live in a very politically charged city. And I think that even if we didn't live in a politically charged city, at this point, jobs are so scarce that people who know people who know people are the ones that are ending up, um, at work-
gpt
Mm-hmm.
human
-and getting jobs. And I think that, um, if I continue to, you know, go to school and, uh, you know, uh, get time from that felony, you know. So it's been seven years now and—
gpt
It's a long time.
human
Yeah. And at some point, I probably don't even have to report it, you know, and I have that going for me. It's been seven years. I have the fact that I'm, you know, uh, good at, um, interaction with people, that's good.
gpt
Mm-hmm.
human
You know, um, I've been clean from that sort of lifestyle for that long so that's-that's-that's up for me, you know, that's-that's good. Um—
gpt
And you can- you can prove that and document that.
human
Yeah.
gpt
Yeah. A lot of folks can't.
human
They don't.
gpt
Yeah. And you've been going to school. I mean, all-all your movement is in this really positive, highly motivated way. And, um- and I think your-your thoughts and ideas about the fact that one day a conversation will- you'll strike up with somebody and it will happen to be with somebody who works for a company that perhaps does not have a policy against hiring people with felony convictions.
human
Yeah. Well, that's my hope.
gpt
It's individual. Yeah.
human
Yeah. That's my hope.
gpt
It-it is individual.
human
It is. It should be. You know, I-I—
gpt
It-- I believe it is.
human
Yeah.
gpt
There's no-- I don't think, any State or federal law that says.
human
No, no. It is an individual but you're right. Yeah. It's—
gpt
Okay.
human
But here's the thing is—
gpt
Right person, right company-
human
Right.
gpt
-we're looking for here. Yeah.
human
The thing is after, you know, after the 9/11 attacks, a lot of companies have blindly implemented, you know, those types of situa- and-and there's no- there isn't, at this point-- I mean, I don't think, at this point, there is no real sure fire way to find out what those reports are, you know, accurate or not. I mean, there's a lot of situations where people's reports are not even accurate about their criminal background.
gpt
Mm-hmm.
human
I think that-
gpt
Mm-hmm.
human
-blindly, people have implemented those types of, um, measures and they don't have any efficiency with them because they don't- you know, I mean, everybody is offering background checks now and stuff like that. And I'm- that's one of the things that I'm afraid of is that people are implementing all these security security measures, but they don't really know if the reports are even accurate, you know.
gpt
I wonder what it'd be like if you ran your own background check and got the report to see what's in there.
human
I have.
gpt
Oh, you do?
human
Yeah, I do. I have one and, uh, um.
gpt
Good for you doing that.
human
Right, yeah.
gpt
Yeah. Smart.
human
Yeah. Thank you. I don't know. I'm just, I guess-
gpt
Discouraged.
human
-what I'm really—
gpt
Discouraged, yeah.
human
Yeah, I'm really here because I think I'm- I-I- It's a very dangerous area for me when I'm discouraged because-
gpt
Mm-hmm.
human
-you know, all the- despite all the good things that I have going for me, the only thing that's loud and clear are the things that I don't have going for me.
gpt
Mm-hmm.
human
If that makes any sense.
gpt
Uh, yeah, it does. Uh, I am yet to- it-it seems to me just in this time we've been talking together that you, um, um, do have a sense that a lot of it has to do-do with, uh, timing, luck, who you know, and being, are you able to have that conversation where you know that you can sell yourself and your skills and, um, and your competencies and the fact that you've overcome so many things like, um, substance abuse problem and, uh, have been, you know, uh, a good upstanding citizen all this time. Um, to me, if I were an employer, you know, I would- I would be impressed with that.
human
Thank you.
gpt
Uh-- You're welcome. And- so what about, um, I know I had a client that told me a couple of things. He was doing some work on this, uh, if you- if you'd be interested I could tell you what he shared with me.
human
Yeah, yeah, I am.
gpt
Okay. Um, he found the most valid information on blogs done by felons.
human
Oh, okay.
gpt
They are your experts.
human
Very interesting.
gpt
And, uh, they-they are actually, uh, uh, much what you have said, they said, but they also, uh, uh, talked about which places and companies they did find were open. For instance, family-owned businesses just tend to-- They can, if they can--
human
Yeah, again, it's like who you know, right?
gpt
Right, right.
human
I know that-
gpt
Or start your own business. That was another thing that I thought was really--
human
Yeah, well, I think that's what I got. That's what I am doing. That's what I'm sort of involved with now is like, you know, find, um, you know, I'm still continuing to go to school, but I'm also starting, um, work for myself. Um, you know, it's not no Fortune 500 company or anything, but I do have a little bit of income coming in from that.
gpt
Uh-huh.
human
Um, it-it, uh, you know, it will all come together.
gpt
So being an entre- being an entrepreneur fits for you.
human
You know what? Actually, one of the things is that I read is that is that's one of the things you gotta do is just, uh, start your own business. You know what I mean? Uh, you don't have to report to anybody. I mean, obviously, I can't work with, um-- unless I get a waiver I can't work with, like, I think the law says I can't work with kids or, um, like a hazmat stuff.
gpt
Mm-hmm.
human
Like truck driving and stuff like that.
gpt
Mm-hmm.
human
Uh, but that doesn't matter to me. You know what I- you know, I'm kind of- I'm trying to look at the things that I can do.
gpt
Well, that, you know, now that's a-a really different way of looking at it than how you were looking at what you can do versus what's getting in your way that you know you can't do.
human
Right.
gpt
So, um, what kinda- what-what are you starting? What's this business? If you-you don't have to tell me if you don't want, I know it's on the up and up, but you don't have to tell me if you don't want.
human
No, it's, um, uh, like a party planning event, you know, like a wedding planning, not like a wedding planner, but like—
gpt
You'd be so good at that.
human
Like, you know, like corporate events when they have, you know, like an event, you know, they need-
gpt
Uh-huh.
human
-you know, they need chauffeured transportation, limos, they need that type of thing. I, um, I'm involved in the planning of the transportation from airports, uh, hotel arrangements, um, uh, booking of, uh, you know, the rooms. It's just, I guess just an event planner, but it's not through any sort of corporate, um, uh, company [unintelligible 00:19:40].
gpt
You-you would be the corporate company.
human
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm trying to get—
gpt
CEO.
human
Yeah.
gpt
[laughter]
human
I don't know about that, but, you know.
gpt
So. Yeah, I- I've heard that-that in recession, uh, those are often the best opportunities for people to start doing business is to, um, see an area where you see a need go in and fill it.
human
Yeah, I think that's my only, uh, uh, I know it's not my only-
gpt
One.
human
-but it's-it's- it's a good, It's a good opportunity to, um, kind of work for myself. I would love to just be able to work for myself, you know? Um.
gpt
You're comfortable with that?
human
I am, I am comfortable with it and I do well. I do well at-at, you know, the few opportunities I've had to organize something like that. Um, it's okay. You know, um, at least I'm still going to school though, you know I'm going to be done with that.
gpt
I know. That's fantastic. It is.
human
I don't want to act out, you know, I mean, I'm, you know, I think I have-
gpt
Acting out would be what?
human
Well, you know, I dunno, um, going back to a lifestyle, you know, crime or, um, using, or you know, just destructive behavior-
gpt
Okay. Gottcha.
human
-and sort of destructive behavior. I don't wanna be destructive. I wanna be productive, you know.
gpt
Like you are now.
human
Like I am now, but it's-it's starting to get-- Like I said, I mean, I wouldn't have come in here if things were just peachy keen, you know what I mean? It sucks. And I'm getting sick of, you know, rejection and it's like almost, it makes me think like, why am I even going to school? You know? Should I just drop out and just, you know, get jobs that are, you know, I mean, that's not enough, that's not a viable option for me either.You know, I just, I don't, I wanna make sure that I'm centered here so that I can go out there and do the best I can with maintaining composure, and then trying to get ahead. But if I'm not okay here, here, you know, I just, I don't think that I have, I don't stand a chance, you know?
gpt
So the-the-the law of, um, felony convictions is-is something that you don't have any control over. I mean, nobody does. So, um, you know, and I'm thinking about how you were talking about getting all the way through the interview and then getting rejected, you know, versus being upfront about it and-and even on the telephone to see whether it's a deal breaker or not, because it must- it sounds like it's so much harder to have that good interview and walk out of there ad know you've done well, and then get turned down.
human
Yeah. I mean, I just recently had one of those where I was gonna be offered. I- he-- I think he was-- I'm pretty sure he was offering him a really good job.
gpt
Mm-hmm.
human
And, uh, it was an interview given to me by my brother, you know, who knew the guy. And, um, it went great until he gave me the paperwork to sign for a background check. And I said, well, you know, I'll sign it, but I just wanna let you know that this is what you're gonna find.
gpt
And your brother didn't know that when he gave you the lead on the job, that there was a background check involved?
human
No, he did. He said, you know, don't say anything until, you know-- I don't know if I know what he said. I think he said that he's not sure if they do.
gpt
Okay.
human
He said, just go ahead and give it a shot anyway, you know, and, um, I just, I figured I'd just give her a shot, but I think I like your, I think to spare myself some, uh, frustration and further agony-
gpt
Mm-hmm.
human
-I think that I might try that. I think I might try, you know, from now on you know, uh, finding like a tactful way of asking, you know, I don't wanna be blunt about it and go you know, "Do you hire criminals?" or anything.
gpt
You're not a criminal.
human
I'm a former criminal though.
gpt
That's right. You're rehabilitated.
human
Yeah.
gpt
A plus shining new guy.
human
Right. So, I know that I am a new guy, but, uh, they don't, you know, so I think society's a lot less forgiving.
gpt
Oh, I think so, too.
human
And individuals, and um, so I think I'm gonna try-- I think that's a really good idea is to kind of like weed out, you know, but how do you say that? You know. How-how do you possibly tell somebody, you know, how do you- how do you get that out there before you go in?
gpt
I guess I would just have a tendency to say it. I'm a recovering person, and back in my former life, I have a felony conviction. And before we go any further, I don't wanna waste your time. Uh, would that be a problem in even getting the interview, what would you think about saying something like that?
human
Hmm. Seems, uh, sort of forward, you know, but I-I think that it's probably better if I do tell them so I don't waste my time and hope.
gpt
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
human
You know, yeah. I think I'm gonna try that from now on.
gpt
Okay. I mean, I'd be happy if you wanna work on a few, you know, things, uh, to write down that sound comfy and fit, you know, how you talk and you use words and stuff. 'Cause I-I also think, you know, interviewing is a good schoo- a good skill, and the more you do it, the better you get at it. And you've been getting a lot of practice at it. So that's-that's been useful too.
human
Yeah.
gpt
I mean, even-even though you get turned down, that feels terrible. The actual and, I bet you with every single one, you get better at it.
human
Yeah. I mean the interview process-
gpt
Uh-huh, uh-huh.
human
-itself, no, I don't think I ever- yeah. No, I-I mean, I don't believe that I have a problem with the actual interview process.
gpt
Yeah. I bet you're even better now.
human
Yeah. It's been a lot.
gpt
You got lots of practice.
human
Been a lot, yeah.
gpt
Yeah. Well then lastly, just getting back, um, to this, another source that that same client was an advocacy group called the John Howard Society.
human
Mm-hmm.
gpt
I don't know if you've ever-
human
I have heard of it. I haven't-
gpt
Yeah.
human
-looked into it yet, but-
gpt
Uh, he, yeah, uh, he- they have a lot of, uh, they have a lot of really good stuff on there about this because they're trying to change the laws about that because-
human
Yeah.
gpt
-they are so, um, they are so prejudicial. They really are. And I would check with the ACLU too. I mean, just as I-I don't know much, and now I'm very curious and I wanna find out about it myself, but yeah.
human
Yeah. I know. I-I've done some research on it for school.
gpt
Mm-hmm.
human
And, uh, it turns out it's a big cause of the recidivism rate. You know-
gpt
Oh, absolutely.
human
-as far as people going back-
gpt
Absolutely.
human
-to what they know, and, uh, and it's, uh, there is prejud- uh, prejudicial motivation, uh, and there is—
gpt
You're not allowed to vote.
human
It's really frustrating. I know.
gpt
And you're not allowed to vote.
human
I think that- I think- I think ignorance is what really—
gpt
That shocked me when I found that out.
human
Yeah.
gpt
I couldn't believe that.
human
Yeah.
gpt
Do you know how many millions of people and when you think about that racially, um, hmm.
human
Yeah, exactly.
gpt
Yeah, mm-hmm.
human
You know, I know there's-there's just a lot of- a lot of bullshit.
gpt
Mm-hmm.
human
Yeah.
gpt
That's a great word for it there. Yeah. So, um-
human
Yeah, to figure out [unintelligible 00:27:30] anyway, you know.
gpt
Yeah. So-so maybe you- if you- if you wanted to, and this is really up to you, you could check out the blogs, you know. Um, I can see if I can track him down and stuff and the John Howard Society. And, um, I'd be really interested if-if you wanna get together to see what you have found out.
human
Yeah. I-I, you know, I, you know, like I said, I wanna make sure I come back and, um, kind of get my, um, you know, my overall mental health-
gpt
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
human
-you know, um, I wouldn't say stable because I'm not that unstable. I just—
gpt
But this has affected it.
human
It has affected it.
gpt
Rejection-rejection, yeah.
human
Yeah, rejection. Yeah.
gpt
Yeah.
human
So, I just wanna make sure that I'm okay. So-
gpt
Yeah.
human
-I'll be back and we can, you know, we can discuss it further if you have any information and I'll share whatever I've got.
gpt
I'll do some checking around for you. I will. Yeah.
human
Well, thanks for the suggestions. Yeah.
gpt
Oh, you are welcome. Thanks for being so open with me. I appreciate it.
human
No problem.
gpt
Yeah. Okay.
human
Thank you.