Breitbart Editor-at-Large Ben Shapiro and transgender reporter for Inside Edition and helicopter pilot Zoey Tur engaged in a heated debate over Caitlyn Jenner and transgenderism during which Tur threatened to send Shapiro home in an ambulance on Thursday’s “Dr. Drew On Call.”

Shapiro was asked by host Dr. Drew Pinsky if Jenner deserved the ESPY’s Arthur Ashe Courage Award, he responded, “For what?” Pinsky then said, “For courageously coming forward, for having been an athlete of great prowess, and now fighting a new battle?” Shapiro asked, “What exactly is the battle? I mean, self-definition what is you do. And my baby’s doing it at 18 months old. I was unaware that you get a medal for it.”

Entertainment journalist Segun Oduolowu, said that Jenner is “a fraud,” and “the message and the messenger were wrong.” He continued, “She said it herself in her speech, that she retreated to her mansion in the hill, and was — where was she in the ’70s when gay — when the LGBT community was fighting for acceptance? Where was she in the ’80s when AIDS epidemic was ravaging the –? … Where was she in the ’90s when shows like ‘90210,’ ‘Melrose Place,’ and ‘Will & Grace’ were bringing people — gay people to the forefront?”

He added, “she’s a 65-year-old rich white woman that decided to do this. But don’t tell me you’re walking the truth for other transgender kids, kids of color who don’t have the war chest of money to get the surgery, to look like she looks. they’re not going to get the cover of Vanity Fair. But don’t tell me that she is going to stand on the banks waving her hand as the beacon of comfort for transgender [people], when there’s a river of blood of the people that die –.”

“Pop Trigger’ host Samantha Schacher objected that regardless of anyone’s personal feelings about Jenner, “her intent, she is bringing a conversation to the forefront that is helping people better understand, not you unfortunately, better understand the transgender community, have more empathy, have more tolerance, and that is saving lives. Because as she stated, there are so many transgender youths and adults that are victims of violence, that are beat up, that are bullied, because of the discrimination. So, thank God that now she is mainstreaming it so people can better understand it and have tolerance.”

Oduolowu objected that this is “dead wrong” as Jenner “lives in the most accepting in the state” and should “go do that in Alabama.” wait —

Tur argued, “You have to bifurcate it. Did she deserve the honor? Probably not. Is she brave? Of course she’s brave. All those years invested as the sports legend, to come out transgender is horribly difficult. It is the most difficult thing you can do. I’ve been overseas, I’ve flown helicopter missions, surveillance missions, I’ve been shot, stabbed. Being brave is being yourself. And being transgender is about the bravest thing you can do.”

After Tur and Oduolowu had a brief exchange, Shapiro wondered, “Why are we mainstreaming delusion?” When asked why he would refer to transgenderism as “delusion.” He responded, “Because, Bruce — Caitlyn Jenner, I’ll call him Caitlyn Jenner –” Schacher then interjected, “No, it’s her, you’re not being polite to the pronouns, it’s disrespectful.”

Shapiro responded, “Okay, forget about the disrespect, facts don’t care about your feelings. It, turns out that every chromosome, every cell in Caitlyn Jenner’s body, is male, with the exception of some of his sperm cells. … It turns out that he still has all of his male appendages. How he feels on the inside is irrelevant to the question of his biological self.”

Oduolowu clarified his position that, “She wants to be called she, I’m going to call her she. I just have a problem with the message and the messenger.”

Pinsky then argued that ABC did a good job getting viewers, which is the point of an awards ceremony. Pinsky continued, “In terms of the science behind gender disphoria, you’re very familiar with that, Zoey. It’s not about the…chromosomes within our nuclei.” Tur responded, “We both know chromosomes don’t necessarily mean you’re male or female.” And “you have a thing like Klinefelter’s syndrome. So, [turning to Shapiro and touching his shoulder] you don’t know what you’re talking about, you’re not educated on genetics –.” Shapiro asked if the discussion was supposed to be on genetics and asked, “What are your genetics, sir?” Pinsky said to Tur, “I’d stay away from the genetics and back to the brain scans.”

Tur then said to Shapiro, “You cut that out now, or you’ll go home in an ambulance.” Shapiro responded, “That seems mildly inappropriate for a political discussion.” Oduolowu said that, to be fair, Shapiro was being rude, to which Shapiro answered, “I’m sorry, it’s not rude to say that someone who’s biologically a male is a male.” Tur stated, “You just called me a ‘sir.'”

After some of the other panelists, particularly radio and “Chain Reaction” host Mike Catherwood, objected that Shapiro knew that what he said would be “insulting” and “inflammatory.” Shapiro responded, “It’s not a matter of insulting or inflammatory. It’s a fact. You are a male. Dr. Drew is a male.”

Catherwood conceded, “Sir, you’re right…on paper, what is a fact is a fact, and I can’t deny that.” He maintained, “But you knew that going in that to say that to Zoey would be aggressively insulting.” Shapiro maintained, “It’s not a matter of aggressively insulting. … The entire discussion is whether we are embracing mental illness and delusion as a society, that’s the entire discussion.”

Catherwood maintained, “You knew saying that to Zoey would be incredibly –”

“Rolanda on Demand” host Rolanda Watts argued, “There’s some very startling statistics that are out, that say that 80% of us know somebody who’s gay or bisexual or even transvestite or lesbian. But only 1% of us know somebody who is in transition. So, this is a new discussion for us. A lot of it is very scary for a lot of people. But that’s — I think, whether we agree with the whole Caitlyn transition or not, the reality is that we are in a state as humanity right where we need to exercise a little bit more tolerance. We need to understand the things that we don’t understand a bit more, instead of making inflammatory comments, maybe we have a little bit more tolerance. That’s what I think –.”

Pinsky went to commercial break urging “no aggression, no violence.”

The debate over Jenner continued in the next segment, watch below:

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