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Kim Phan: "We are trying to make sure we are doing what’s best for StarCraft." Text by TeamLiquid ESPORTS Graphics by shiroiusagi

While the show is going on people behind the scenes are already planning ahead, thinking about the near and far future, adapting to any challenges that might come up. One of the people primarily responsible for the direction of the esports side of SC2 is Kim Phan. She is responsible for managing the monstrous eSport machinery of Blizzard Entertainment, a beast not easily tamed or satisfied, as new tastes and flavours fall in and out of trend and new challenges arise daily.

We were able to spend some time with Kim Phan at the WCS Circuit: Winter Championship in Katowice, Poland, to talk about one great part of this machinery: the World Championship Series.

TL.net: What would you say are the biggest positive and the biggest negative points about the new WCS system and what was your thought process behind this radical system change between 2015 and 2016?

Kim Phan: Well, first of all we took a look at all the years and what people liked and the StarCraft community is so amazing—from the players, to the influencers, just everyone involved is very vocal about StarCraft and is very passionate about it, so we hear a lot of feedback—and it’s great to be able to receive so many thoughts and a lot of that is taken into account, when we make changes.

For 2016 we knew it was going to be the Legacy of the Void launch year and that was a great opportunity for us to think about how we continue growing StarCraft eSports, especially as new players come in to try Legacy of the Void, and the games changes as well with different units that are added. That was almost like another chance to say: Hey, what does the StarCraft landscape look like in terms of competitive play, what is the meta? And I think we wanted to make changes, which would allow more people to compete and enter the system. So how were we able to improve that?

The thing that we saw in 2015 was that it was very difficult for a professional player to really stand out and to get noticed in a system where there were a lot of players from Korea in this space. You know, Korea has just always been a very dominant and fierce country when it comes to eSports—they’re just so, so good. And there probably aren’t enough tournaments out there to really accommodate all their skill. So what we saw was not enough growth in other regions, because there weren’t enough moments where we saw—for example in Krakow last year for the Season 3 finals—a moment that was like ‘wow, this is amazing, look at the Polish crowd cheer on MaNa in the finals and there is Lilbow as well’ and it’s just so great to see that energy and to see local heroes shine and these players played really, really well, they took out Hydra and Polt. So how do you cultivate that? I think that influenced a lot of our changes and that is why we decided to go the route of two different ranking systems.

One reason is: How do we grow pro players and give them the chance to shine and to show they truly are skilled? It’s wonderful to see all the best players of the world play and not just Korea—certainly the best of the best in StarCraft is in Korea, no doubt about it—, but there is a best of the best in StarCraft all over the world as well and we wanted to be able to put a spotlight on that, and I think that influenced our changes significantly. And at the same time we want people to realize that Korea is the best and we didn’t do a good job previously of promoting the tournaments in Korea, because it’s in a different time zone, in the west it’s really hard to follow—and those are the things we wanted to do better for Korea to really put a spotlight on ‘this is where the best players are, if you want to compete with the best, this is the place to go’. So WCS Korea is still open to everybody, is still a global tournament, but the reality of 'doing really well' is competing against the big bosses again and again. We want to rebroadcast it, talk about the stories more, tell people more about the players. Because if you have it mixed together it’s harder to follow the story. So you can’t really follow the stories of the other local heroes, because they’re not getting a chance to rise. It’s just too much to cover to keep it clear.

These are probably the biggest reasons behind these changes and we thought with Legacy of the Void was a great opportunity to do a change like that. What else did we consider? We could have made not a lot of changes at all, but then it probably would’ve taken longer to get players inspired to compete.

TL.net: Did you ever discuss going back to the system you had in 2012, with the regional and national championships? People really loved that. There is this famous picture of Stephano with the French flag in hand, being cheered on by the crowd…

Kim Phan: Yes, we did consider so many options and this was one of the things we considered as well. But—as you mentioned drastic changes before—we thought going back to a system from 2012 would have been too drastic. Also in order to put together 2012 we had to get a lot of events from all over the world together and from the feedback we got about this it was really hard to follow. It was great for the people who followed their own region and got to see their own heroes, but to follow the stories from across the world was really difficult for a lot of people. So that was something we were mindful of. How can we make the stories easy to follow? So the system now—although it seems like it has two different stories—provides one story here. So you are still able to see Stephano do his flag waving, like Lilbow did now. So I think we have a little bit of a mix of both now, because our Championships will be at live events, so we have more of those moments, but they all have to compete against each other to see who is the best.

TL.net: Do you then think that the one event we have had so far—DreamHack in Leipzig—was a promising start to the new system, or is it too early to really tell?

Kim Phan: We have seen the positive changes we intended happening, and as this is the second event we are going to continue to see more results, so yes it’s a little early to say, but we are already seeing positive things. That I am really excited about.

TL.net: So did you hear a lot of good things from the community? What are these positive signals you get?

Kim Phan: Yes, we get a lot of feedback from the community, we continue to do so—of course a big thanks to the teamliquid community and just the StarCraft community as a whole for always telling us what they’re thinking. We are seeing a lot of incoming players rising, and I think that’s exciting, fresh blood is always good, and you are seeing some surprises with Legacy of the Void being so different, people love playing it, so I heard a lot of positive feedback about the game and how it affected eSports.

TL.net: Initially the community didn’t react so well to the WCS changes. Were you afraid that you would create a rift between the regions, or between the so-called casual fan camp and the so-called elitist fan camp, which would stay for a long time?

Kim Phan: I think every time you introduce change it takes a while for people to form a decision about it. And I will admit we changed WCS year after year, it’s always been different and the community has been very patient in letting us try things and giving feedback. So I can see why it may be challenging when you are really invested into one format and then another change happens. But we really want to do it right and create a system that can continue and be easy to follow, and so we continue to make improvements. And I think we just expect there to be different voices. We are trying to make sure we are doing what’s best for StarCraft and what’s best for the players.

TL.net: Many in the community are looking forward to the WCS Global Events, where Foreigners will compete against Koreans, which is a rare occasion now in the new system. But many are worried, because we haven’t heard any real announcements about these events so far. Is there anything you can say about this? Will Blizzard give more incentives to organizers to organize these events?

Kim Phan: I am trying to think about what I can say… I do know that there is one event being planned, that hasn’t been announced yet. So I shouldn’t say anything until it’s actually announced, as I don’t know what changes might be happening. But I do think those moments will become very, very special and that’s what I am really excited about. On the flip side of course people say ‘how is that competition going to look like though, when they haven’t played against each other for a while now?’. I don’t remember the year, but one time at IPL they did ‘Korea vs the World’, do you remember that one?

TL.net: Yeah.

Kim Phan: That was the one where Stephano like…

TL.net: …where Stephano almost all-killed Korea.

Kim Phan: Yeah, where Stephano almost all-killed them. So I am excited about this. That event gives me hope, that as the skill level of the western players get better and better and better, that’s going to be cool to see. And what else was it? Nation Wars?

TL.net: Yeah, Nation Wars. MarineLorD’s moment of triumph.

Kim Phan: Oh my goodness, Nation Wars, MarineLorD was insane, so him taking out the whole Korean team was really cool to see. So France won Nation Wars against Korea, which gives me a lot excitement and hope for more moments like that.

TL.net: As you know the teamliquid-community is especially interested in the Korean scene, following it religiously. Recently there have been worries about the shrinking talent pool in Korea—our very own stuchiu wrote an article about this on ESPN that really blew up and opened a huge discussion inside the community. Are there plans from Blizzard to step in and help out the grassroots scene there and also abroad?

Kim Phan: We will continue to support Korean eSports, we know that that’s where the talent is—and you kind of hit it right there I think, you can’t stop players from retiring, it’s always going to happen. StarCraft is a lot about speed and APM and if you don’t play a lot you’re going to fall behind very quickly. So how do you get the next group of people coming in? We’ve been working with organizers in Korea to build more grassroots tournaments and to help growing that talent. There are things we are already doing, a lot of it behind the scenes which people might not realize as well. The point is something I agree with and we’re working towards improving things.

TL.net: Since Proleague is so beloved all over the world, have there been discussions about setting up an official Blizzard team league? Is that something that might come up in the future?

Kim Phan: We also love Proleague, we think it’s awesome. And we’ve thought about it. There need to be more teams outside of Korea however in order to build a league. So yeah, we did think about it. But the nature of StarCraft 2 being a 1on1 game and the infrastructure outside of Korea making it harder for teams to practice together is a bigger challenge. So the question is how to grow these things, so you can have enough teams on an even playing field.

TL.net: Thank you very much for your time, we wish you the best in the future, please try to show good systems and we will cheer for you!

While the show is going on people behind the scenes are already planning ahead, thinking about the near and far future, adapting to any challenges that might come up. One of the people primarily responsible for the direction of the esports side of SC2 is Kim Phan. She is responsible for managing the monstrous eSport machinery of Blizzard Entertainment, a beast not easily tamed or satisfied, as new tastes and flavours fall in and out of trend and new challenges arise daily.We were able to spend some time with Kim Phan at the WCS Circuit: Winter Championship in Katowice, Poland, to talk about one great part of this machinery: the World Championship Series.

Draconicfire Profile Joined May 2010 Canada 2561 Posts Last Edited: 2016-03-07 07:30:20 #2 I really do hope they start to do more grassroots stuff in Korea.

I was watching a drama recently where they had a scene that took place in a PC Bang in 1999 and everyone was playing StarCraft. Made me kinda sad when I think about going there now and it's all League and other random games. @Drayxs | Drayxs.221 | Drayxs#1802

iMrising Profile Blog Joined March 2012 United States 1074 Posts #3

Thanks for taking the time to interview her (TripleM), and thanks to Kim Pham for taking the time to talk to the community.

Long Live Starcraft! Its nice to see these little things that show that Blizzard really does careThanks for taking the time to interview her (TripleM), and thanks to Kim Pham for taking the time to talk to the community.Long Live Starcraft! $O$ | soO

Topdoller Profile Joined March 2011 United Kingdom 3860 Posts #4 I really do hope they fund more grassroots in Korea, it is the heart of Starcraft where the most dedicated players emerge from and if goes under then the future of Starcraft as a professional event would be in serious jeopardy

calh Profile Joined March 2013 378 Posts #5 All in all rather vacuous.

NinjaToss Profile Blog Joined October 2015 Austria 1378 Posts #6 I know KeSPA is actually doing some amateur SCII league and it's casted by Canata and he post the games in his channel. It's really nice of Blizzard to show us that they cares, sometimes it's all that matters I'm sorry for all those that got their hearts broken by Zest | Zest, Bisu, soO, herO, MC, Maru, TY, Rogue, Trap, TaeJa", Favourite foreigners: ShoWTimE, Snute, Serral and Nerchio| KT BEST KT |

Brutaxilos Profile Blog Joined July 2010 United States 2381 Posts #7 Blizzard should sponsor NationWars to be an international Proleague. Jangbi favorite player. Forever~ CJ herO the King of IEM. BOMBERRRRRRRR. Sexy Boy Rogue.

AKAvg Profile Joined April 2014 Brazil 297 Posts #8 "...We’ve been working with organizers in Korea to build more grassroots tournaments and to help growing that talent. There are things we are already doing, a lot of it behind the scenes which people might not realize as well..."

Quite a lot I hope because so far...

I find interesting that she admits that Korea is the best is and wishes/hopes/prays that foreign players becomes as good as they are somehow/someway.

I truly believe you can't be among the best if you don't train and compete with the best and I hardly think shutting most Koreans out helps with that. A shame, really.

heqat Profile Joined October 2011 Switzerland 56 Posts #9 On March 07 2016 17:07 Brutaxilos wrote:

Blizzard should sponsor NationWars to be an international Proleague.

Yea NationWars deserve more love from Blizzard. It is a great tournament.

Yea NationWars deserve more love from Blizzard. It is a great tournament.

FrkFrJss Profile Joined April 2015 Canada 1131 Posts #10 On March 07 2016 17:17 AKAvg wrote:

"...We’ve been working with organizers in Korea to build more grassroots tournaments and to help growing that talent. There are things we are already doing, a lot of it behind the scenes which people might not realize as well..."

Quite a lot I hope because so far...

I find interesting that she admits that Korea is the best is and wishes/hopes/prays that foreign players becomes as good as they are somehow/someway.

I truly believe you can't be among the best if you don't train and compete with the best and I hardly think shutting most Koreans out helps with that. A shame, really.

I agree and disagree. I think that unless all the foreigners moved to Korea and trained in team houses, they probably wouldn't be as good as Koreans.

That being said, there a number if examples of both Koreans and foreigners living at home and beating top Koreans without that Korean environment.

Besides, look at 2013/2014, I mean, we really didn't see that many foreigners going toe to toe with Koreans. I think Blizzard is correct in trying this for a year and then assessing where the competitive scene is at after Blizzcon. I agree and disagree. I think that unless all the foreigners moved to Korea and trained in team houses, they probably wouldn't be as good as Koreans.That being said, there a number if examples of both Koreans and foreigners living at home and beating top Koreans without that Korean environment.Besides, look at 2013/2014, I mean, we really didn't see that many foreigners going toe to toe with Koreans. I think Blizzard is correct in trying this for a year and then assessing where the competitive scene is at after Blizzcon. "Keep Moving Forward" - Walt Disney

usopsama Profile Joined April 2008 6487 Posts Last Edited: 2016-03-07 08:48:11 #11 We are trying to make sure we are doing... what’s best for the players.

When she says they are doing what's best for the "players," I guess she is really referring to the foreign players. I mean, they really fucked over a lot of passionate and highly-skilled Korean players with their region-lock.

How ironic would it be if more foreign players, like Lilbow, go to Blizzcon after practicing only, like, 2 games. When she says they are doing what's best for the "players," I guess she is really referring to the foreign players. I mean, they really fucked over a lot of passionate and highly-skilled Korean players with their region-lock.How ironic would it be if more foreign players, like Lilbow, go to Blizzcon after practicing only, like, 2 games.

deacon.frost Profile Joined February 2013 Czech Republic 7191 Posts #12 On March 07 2016 17:41 usopsama wrote:

Show nested quote +

We are trying to make sure we are doing... what’s best for the players.

When she says they are doing what's best for the "players," I guess she is really referring to the foreign players. I mean, they really fucked over a lot of passionate and highly-skilled Korean players with their region-lock.

How ironic would it be if more foreign players, like Lilbow, go to Blizzcon after practicing only, like, 2 games. When she says they are doing what's best for the "players," I guess she is really referring to the foreign players. I mean, they really fucked over a lot of passionate and highly-skilled Korean players with their region-lock.How ironic would it be if more foreign players, like Lilbow, go to Blizzcon after practicing only, like, 2 games.

I am still waiting for the win he was training for This Karma thing is gorgeous

And the first part - yeah, "we fucked the best players, but we are doing what's best for the players" - I think that's just a pure PR meaningless talk. What is she supposed to say? We fucked Koreans, we applied racist rule, we haven't released book rules yet, but ... we are doing the best for players. Do you want to buy Nova campaign? I am still waiting for the win he was training forThis Karma thing is gorgeousAnd the first part - yeah, "we fucked the best players, but we are doing what's best for the players" - I think that's just a pure PR meaningless talk. What is she supposed to say? We fucked Koreans, we applied racist rule, we haven't released book rules yet, but ... we are doing the best for players. Do you want to buy Nova campaign? I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.

usopsama Profile Joined April 2008 6487 Posts Last Edited: 2016-03-07 10:18:02 #13 On March 07 2016 17:56 deacon.frost wrote:

Show nested quote +

On March 07 2016 17:41 usopsama wrote:

We are trying to make sure we are doing... what’s best for the players.

When she says they are doing what's best for the "players," I guess she is really referring to the foreign players. I mean, they really fucked over a lot of passionate and highly-skilled Korean players with their region-lock.

How ironic would it be if more foreign players, like Lilbow, go to Blizzcon after practicing only, like, 2 games. When she says they are doing what's best for the "players," I guess she is really referring to the foreign players. I mean, they really fucked over a lot of passionate and highly-skilled Korean players with their region-lock.How ironic would it be if more foreign players, like Lilbow, go to Blizzcon after practicing only, like, 2 games.

I am still waiting for the win he was training for This Karma thing is gorgeous

And the first part - yeah, "we fucked the best players, but we are doing what's best for the players" - I think that's just a pure PR meaningless talk. What is she supposed to say? We fucked Koreans, we applied racist rule, we haven't released book rules yet, but ... we are doing the best for players. Do you want to buy Nova campaign? I am still waiting for the win he was training forThis Karma thing is gorgeousAnd the first part - yeah, "we fucked the best players, but we are doing what's best for the players" - I think that's just a pure PR meaningless talk. What is she supposed to say? We fucked Koreans, we applied racist rule, we haven't released book rules yet, but ... we are doing the best for players. Do you want to buy Nova campaign?

Agreed. I shouldn't be reading so deeply into the empty PR talk. Agreed. I shouldn't be reading so deeply into the empty PR talk.

Elentos Profile Blog Joined February 2015 46197 Posts #14 We also love Proleague, we think it’s awesome. And we’ve thought about it. There need to be more teams outside of Korea however in order to build a league.

Dafuq? There's more pro teams outside of Korea than in Korea. A lot more.

You can maybe say foreign Proleague isn't realistic because foreign SC2 doesn't all come together in one city like in Korea, but saying there have to be more teams is just... strange. Dafuq? There's more pro teams outside of Korea than in Korea. A lot more.You can maybe say foreign Proleague isn't realistic because foreign SC2 doesn't all come together in one city like in Korea, but saying there have to be more teams is just... strange. Splyce flair now | Where is knowledge?

deacon.frost Profile Joined February 2013 Czech Republic 7191 Posts #15 On March 07 2016 18:00 Elentos wrote:

Show nested quote +

We also love Proleague, we think it’s awesome. And we’ve thought about it. There need to be more teams outside of Korea however in order to build a league.

Dafuq? There's more pro teams outside of Korea than in Korea. A lot more.

You can maybe say foreign Proleague isn't realistic because foreign SC2 doesn't all come together in one city like in Korea, but saying there have to be more teams is just... strange. Dafuq? There's more pro teams outside of Korea than in Korea. A lot more.You can maybe say foreign Proleague isn't realistic because foreign SC2 doesn't all come together in one city like in Korea, but saying there have to be more teams is just... strange.

Also all the attempts failed on the foreign side. I remember TB(Clan Wars) saying that teams were always late(e.g.

Not sure what happened with ATC. Also all the attempts failed on the foreign side. I remember TB(Clan Wars) saying that teams were always late(e.g. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/496820-foreign-sc2-doesnt-need-wcs-it-needs-a-proleague?page=2#37 Not sure what happened with ATC. I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.

Makro Profile Joined March 2011 France 16491 Posts #16 thanks for that interview Matthew 5:10 "Blessed are those who are persecuted because of shitposting, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven".

Diabolique Profile Joined June 2015 Czech Republic 5118 Posts Last Edited: 2016-03-07 09:14:26 #17 What would you say are the biggest positive and the biggest negative points about the new WCS system?

"- Blaaa blaaa blaaa, everything is great, it is an opportunity, it is exciting, blaaa blaaa blaaaa."

A bullshit PR talk without a single reasonable answer.

Actually no. There is one good and interesting answer - they are preparing 1 (ONE) global event. Well, everybody expected that there will be at least the ONE event. Unfortunately, it seems, there will be really only ONE event.

"you can’t stop players from retiring"

She is a really, really nice lady. And I really, really don't like her. sOs | Rogue | Maru | Trap | Scarlett | Snute | MC

TheOneAboveU Profile Blog Joined February 2011 Germany 2019 Posts #18 On March 07 2016 18:10 deacon.frost wrote:

Show nested quote +

On March 07 2016 18:00 Elentos wrote:

We also love Proleague, we think it’s awesome. And we’ve thought about it. There need to be more teams outside of Korea however in order to build a league.

Dafuq? There's more pro teams outside of Korea than in Korea. A lot more.

You can maybe say foreign Proleague isn't realistic because foreign SC2 doesn't all come together in one city like in Korea, but saying there have to be more teams is just... strange. Dafuq? There's more pro teams outside of Korea than in Korea. A lot more.You can maybe say foreign Proleague isn't realistic because foreign SC2 doesn't all come together in one city like in Korea, but saying there have to be more teams is just... strange.

Also all the attempts failed on the foreign side. I remember TB(Clan Wars) saying that teams were always late(e.g.

Not sure what happened with ATC. Also all the attempts failed on the foreign side. I remember TB(Clan Wars) saying that teams were always late(e.g. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/496820-foreign-sc2-doesnt-need-wcs-it-needs-a-proleague?page=2#37 Not sure what happened with ATC.

You need teams with the right amount of infrastructure and logistics to actually keep up with a long-running league, and in the best case these teams should be more or less even in skill and player numbers, so it makes for a competitive tournament.

So yes, there are more teams outside of Korea than in Korea, but the number of teams fullfilling the requirements for such a league is quite small I think. You need teams with the right amount of infrastructure and logistics to actually keep up with a long-running league, and in the best case these teams should be more or less even in skill and player numbers, so it makes for a competitive tournament.So yes, there are more teams outside of Korea than in Korea, but the number of teams fullfilling the requirements for such a league is quite small I think. Writer also known as TripleM | @TL_TripleM

deacon.frost Profile Joined February 2013 Czech Republic 7191 Posts #19 On March 07 2016 18:17 TheOneAboveU wrote:

Show nested quote +

On March 07 2016 18:10 deacon.frost wrote:

On March 07 2016 18:00 Elentos wrote:

We also love Proleague, we think it’s awesome. And we’ve thought about it. There need to be more teams outside of Korea however in order to build a league.

Dafuq? There's more pro teams outside of Korea than in Korea. A lot more.

You can maybe say foreign Proleague isn't realistic because foreign SC2 doesn't all come together in one city like in Korea, but saying there have to be more teams is just... strange. Dafuq? There's more pro teams outside of Korea than in Korea. A lot more.You can maybe say foreign Proleague isn't realistic because foreign SC2 doesn't all come together in one city like in Korea, but saying there have to be more teams is just... strange.

Also all the attempts failed on the foreign side. I remember TB(Clan Wars) saying that teams were always late(e.g.

Not sure what happened with ATC. Also all the attempts failed on the foreign side. I remember TB(Clan Wars) saying that teams were always late(e.g. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/496820-foreign-sc2-doesnt-need-wcs-it-needs-a-proleague?page=2#37 Not sure what happened with ATC.

You need teams with the right amount of infrastructure and logistics to actually keep up with a long-running league, and in the best case these teams should be more or less even in skill and player numbers, so it makes for a competitive tournament.

So yes, there are more teams outside of Korea than in Korea, but the number of teams fullfilling the requirements for such a league is quite small I think. You need teams with the right amount of infrastructure and logistics to actually keep up with a long-running league, and in the best case these teams should be more or less even in skill and player numbers, so it makes for a competitive tournament.So yes, there are more teams outside of Korea than in Korea, but the number of teams fullfilling the requirements for such a league is quite small I think.

I think he mentioned EG being late, not caring about training on specific maps and other interesting stuff. But I may be wrong, it was a long time I think he mentioned EG being late, not caring about training on specific maps and other interesting stuff. But I may be wrong, it was a long time I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.

Chaggi Profile Joined August 2010 Korea (South) 1934 Posts #20 Beyond everything that's happened, this interview doesn't say shit that we didn't already know. I'm glad to see more life in the foreign scene but it still doesn't stack up anywhere close to what Korea offers. It was interesting watching some players I've never seen at IEM, but I personally didn't stick around for any games other than Major vs Snute cause it simply wasn't fun to watch not-top tier play.

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