The zduhaći, the dragon men, and the related folkloric figures of Europe can be compared with Eurasian shamans, e.g., the "noaidi" of the Lapps, as well as the shamans of the Samoyeds and Tungus in Siberia. They were all able to leave their body in spirit to fight against the enemies of their community. The shamans also fought against each other, usually in animal form, for reasons such as to procure for their side as much reindeer as possible. However, for a shaman's soul to leave his body, he had to work himself into a state of ecstasy through a ceremony consisting of drumming, dancing, chanting, and even taking narcotics. All the zduhaći had to do was to fall asleep, although the unusual depth of their sleep indicates a state of ecstasy. There are detailed and eventful descriptions of the journey of the shaman's soul, but no corresponding accounts exist in the case of the zduhaći. However, the zduhaći who left their bodies were said to have gone into the winds. This expression may contain an idea of a journey. Pavel Rovinski recorded the words he heard from his landlady in Montenegro on a windy night in March: "Listen, how they sing—the travellers; they have gone high high! Happy journey to them!" The crucial difference between the shamans and their European counterparts lies in the fact that the ecstasy of the former was public, while that of the latter was always private. Historian Carlo Ginzburg asserts that "[t]his divergence stands starkly against a homogeneous background." Ginzburg regards all of them as mediators with the realm of the dead, who are the "ambiguous dispensers of prosperity"; the ecstasy represents a temporary death. The accounts in which the figures fly or fight materially rather than in spirit, are attempts "to describe an ecstatic experience perceived as absolutely real". Ginzburg argues, adopting a diffusionist approach, that the shamanistic elements of the European folkloric figures have their original source in the shamanism of Siberian nomads, and their diffusion was possibly mediated by the Scythians. Another possibility is that the shamanistic beliefs are derived from a common source. Their nucleus could have developed in a remote past from cultural interactions between the Proto-Indo-Europeans, speakers of the Proto-Uralic language, and ancient populations of the Caucasus. A third possibility is derivation from structural characteristics of the human mind.