I would like to know why so many people believe the California approved schools offer in inferior education. I am enrolled in California Coast’s BS/MBA program and I will get as much out of the program as I put into it. I have learned a lot from my Organizational Theory and Behavior class because I choose to learn from the class. The notion that you need to go to a traditional or Regional Accredited school for a quality education is ignorant. I am sure that I know more about Macroeconomics from my class at CCU than some students that have taken the class at a RA school. A fine example of my point is when I was in electronics school in the Army, I was in class with someone that had an AS in Electronic Engineering Technology and didn’t know what the purpose of a transistor was. I will admit that when I am finished with my CCU degree, I will get a BS/BA from a RA school simply because I would like to teach on day. I really feel that you will learn as much as you WANT from ANY SCHOOL.
Randall - While it is true that one's learning is often limited by what he/she puts into it, you also have to consider what learning resources the school has to offer. Historically, Regional Accreditation focused on inputs - does the school have an adequate library, are the faculty qualified, etc. All other things being equal - a school with a high quality faculty will produce better educated graduates than one with marginal faculty. Of late RA has changed a bit, as most accreditors are now focusing on learning outcomes as well as inputs. In any event I'd ask this - if a CA approved school is competent, why wouldn't they bother to become regionally accredited? Sure the process takes time and costs some dollars, but if you want to be perceived as above board - why wouldn't you go RA? With the advent of DE among RA schools, I have to wonder how much longer CA approved and true degree mills will last. It would seem that "good money" would drive out "bad money". The only appeal that either of these types of schools could have is to "naive" students who don't know any better or those who are looking for a fast or cheap degree. Thanks - Andy
I am a more recent member of this forum and have read a considerable amount of posts concerning schools accredited and non accredited in the state of California. There have been some comments that have implied some substandard practices from some California schools. Hey! California is on the cutting edge…This produces both brilliance and the foolish.. This is just the nature of innovation. However, the main point by most posters is that schools that are not regionally accredited can be limiting. If for example, in my pursuit of a Ph.D. in Psychology, I choose SCUPS (a college accredited only by the state of California) it would limit options in New York. This does not imply their (SCUPS) courses are terrible or that the school has no academic value. It is just limiting, at least in the state of New York , which insists on regionally accredited schools. If I am going to put money and energy into my studies why not do so in a school that has limitations? There has been a previous post here that make a legitimate case for non regionally accredited schools. I have conceptualized this distance learning issue on a scale from 1 to 10. zero being an outright diploma mill (send us $200 and we print you a diploma) and 10 being a highly prestigious regionally accredited university. At the center of this scale is 5 , which is regionally accredited. It is at the center because regional accreditation is accepted anywhere in the US ,and probably the world. The issue of academic soundness is a separate issue but regional accreditation is more of a guarantee it will be. mark
I don't think that the general opinion is that you get an inferior education, but an inferior credential (degree). The reasons that it is inferior have to do with, among other things, acceptance in academia (either for admission to further study, or as a teaching credential) or that outside CA, the degree is worthless for licensing purposes. What you may or may not get out of an unaccredited CA-approved school is really irrelevant. The simple fact is that their degrees will never be as accepted as those from RA schools. I can't understand why you're going through the CCU program if you plan on eventually taking on an RA program anyway. All you're doing is postponing the inevitable, and if you do plan on teaching at the college level, don't think of stopping at the BA/BS level. Even most community colleges I know require an RA Master's degree for an adjunct teaching position. My advice, FWIW, is to forget about CCU and start an RA program. At the undergrad level, you may well be able to use your CCU coursework to gain portfolio credit at the RA school. If you're going to go through the effort of an RA school anyway, why bother with CCU at all? Bruce
I agree with you. CCU isn't even close to a degree mill. But as to your question why some people believe that California approved schools are inferior, I think it has alot to do with schools like Pacific Western U. Byran
When I was looking at DBA programs, I came across Cal Coast's programs. I was prepared to apply, because I had nearly convinced myself that Ca Approval was "just as good" as RA, meaning it would be as accepted as an RA degree. Fortunately, a few discussions with a few people helped me in this regard. The biggest boost came from my better half when she said, "If you're going to go through the pain, you should make it worth while." CA Approved schools have their market. I am biased towards RA schools for degrees, especially if the person wants to use it for career enhancement. Simply put, an RA degree has more market power than a non-accredited degree. I have said on the aed newsgroup that I thought Cal Coast was one of the better unaccredited choices. The reason for that statement was from the fact they were very upfront (at the time) about not being RA. Many schools 'defend' their lack of accreditation with a lot of smoke and mirrors making statements such as the one below: "Many accrediting associations act as cartels when they attempt to stop the formation of new independent universities through their lobbying of state and federal government authorities. They do this by trying to get state governments to prohibit new schools that are not members of their associations (in other words accredited). Since a new school can not immediately be accredited this in effect blocks the entry of competition for the existing universities." Schools such as this one generally state that it's impossible for schools with a completely DL format to obtain accreditation (untrue). They claim to be true innovators in education held back by restrictive government policies. The language in their accreditation statements are so convoluted that it's difficult to determine what they mean. Usually, the language is such that someone with English as a second language will apply without fully understanding the consequences. I find it interesting that you are in a Cal Coast program now, but will go through the effort again so you can teach. You could save time and money by going through it one time. ------------------ ========================================== Humans are the only animals that protect their stupid from the forces of evolution. <A HREF="http://www.blahetka.com ===================================" TARGET=_blank>http://www.blahetka.com ===================================</A>
My reply will be sort of long and philosophical. Universities have two distinct functions. One one hand they help a person to educate him/herself by providing resources and a structured program of instruction. And on the other hand they assess the breadth and depth of that education and award appropriate degrees. You say that you have learned a lot and that you get out what you put in. I don't doubt it for a second. The problem is that the same thing would be true if you were reading at the library and corresponding with members of your field. You could just look at a university catalog, determine which subjects are required for a degree, then read in each of those subjects. No university would even be involved. Once again, you would get out what you put in. Who is to say whether what you got out of your studies really corresponded to what was expected of a person with a particular degree? That's where the second function of a university comes in: assessment. The university gives you a long series of assignments and examinations that lead to credit in each phase of your program. If you get credit for all the phases, you receive a degree that affirms to the rest of the public that your education met an expected arbitrary standard. And that's where accreditation comes in. It is the accreditors, both institutional and disciplinary, that maintain that expected arbitrary standard. Without accreditation there is no way for outsiders who are not personally acquainted with your school to estimate the level and breadth of the work you did there. A transcript listing lots of impressive courses may not mean much if the subjects were not addressed at the customary level. That's the bottom line. A university degree exists inescapably in a public context. Its value lies in the fact that it has meaning to other people. If you say you have a BA or an MBA, other people have a general idea what that means even if they have never heard of your particular university. If a degree didn't exist in that context of public expectations, it would be meaningless. Imagine receiving a totally unique degree, a 'Wizard of Arts' (Wiz.A.) or something. It's just not the same as an MBA is it? Ask yourself why not. OK, getting back to the original question, the problem I have with the California approved schools is that I don't think that there is any reliable assurance that they are maintaining that public standard. Some of the CA-approved schools probably are excellent, but others aren't. At the present time the 'California approved' sector is under the oversight of an office that was created to manage California's sub-university level trade and vocational schools. The office is experienced in taking consumer complaints about the barber and manicurist colleges. It is overworked, underfunded and has a tremendous backlog of complaints. Whatever quality assurance it gives universities is almost certainly far more superficial and less competent than that provided by the recognized accreditors. My personal opinion is that education is great wherever you can find it. Libraries are wonderful centers for educating yourself. You can apprentice yourself out to a professional that agrees to teach you. Or you can enroll in a non-accredited university that offers you faculty and structure. The problem arises when degrees are granted, and when a person presents him or herself as the peer of all those that have met that recognized social standard that defines what a particular degree means. What I would like to see is non-accredited schools be prohibited from issuing degrees entirely. And I would like to see more programs offering degrees by credible assessment of prior learning, wherever that was acquired. The non-accredited schools would serve those who just want to study for its own sake, as well as providing tutorial assistance for those pursuing accredited degrees by examination.
Randall, I am enrolled in a Calif-approved, non-RA program, and yet I'm about to suggest that given your career objectives, you should strongly consider going straight to an RA degree program. Lest you think me inconsistent in my advice vs. my own choices, let me explain. I already have the necessary RA credentials for my job. The Calif-approved school (Western Institute for Social Research in Berkeley) that I'm enrolled in is purely to enable me to pursue a self-designed degree program, with no expectation that I will "use" the credential for professional advancement. I feel fortunate that I'm at a point where I have the luxury of making that choice. But your post says that you want to be a teacher someday. I say that given the many excellent RA distance learning and alternative bachelor's degree programs out there, cut to the chase and get that accredited degree. This is not a slam on Cal Coast; I happen to think it's a legitimate enterprise. It's just that this doesn't seem to be your best bet to me. Good luck with whatever you choose to do.
Hi, I've been luking here awhile since the other board became "Spam Central" As a CCU Graduate, I am interested in the future of the California Approved category of schools. However, I think that this may be one time California will follow the examples of the other states...instead of the other way around. When I enrolled at CCU back in 1996 (before I had internet access) I too did not know the real difference between RA and State Approval. I have found my CCU degree to enjoy acceptance in private industry, however for me to suggest that it is fine for everyone would be foolhardy as everyone's career needs are different. The California State Approval system seems to be a 1970's phenominoum which is still with us. Back then, there were very few DL options out there, and the Better Schools like CCU and SCUPS really provided a need for career improvement and advancement. The military accepted their degrees for advancement and commissioning back then (according to posts and the schools themselves), as they were approved by the state. They were especially helpful in private industry. The State of California also accepted their degrees for professional licensing. However, over the past year or so I have seen various posts dealing with the changes in policy regarding the acceptance of these schools. Apparently the Military no longer accepts them, and the state is now toughtening it's standards for licensure in various professions, limiting them to accredited degree holders. I received a very good education with CCU and have never heard anything bad about them or SCUPS. But the future of their acceptance may be in question. Eventually, they will probably go for DETEC or RA accreditation, or be phased out altogether, but I really can't see either of them closing up. Both seem to provide a very decent education at a modest cost. Best Regards, Mike Stahl
Credential vs. Education I want to underline the important distinction between credential and experience. I teach mostly undergraduate courses, but also a few graduate courses. I am credentialed to do so because of my RA masters degree. However, the VAST majority of what I teach was not learned as part of my RA masters degree, but through experiential or non-traditional/non-accredited processes. Could someone who had just had those experiences without the RA masters teach what I'm teach? Of course. Would they be allowed to at a RA university? No (Mercer excepted... sorry, couldn't resist.) Example: I teach aspects of analytical psychology (Jung) every semester. I learned everything I know about Jung from my participation in a five-year weekly reading/discussion group on Jung that included certified Jungian analysts, therapists from other perspectives, and interested lay people. Jung was not mentioned once in my counseling psych graduate program, which had a weird mix of cognitive-behaviorists and Rogerians in charge. My credential for teaching Jung is that RA masters degree, but my education about Jung came from somewhere else. The problem comes when you are getting an education at a California-Approved school and what you really want or need is a credential. Hworth
Good points. On of my graduate professors called a graduate degree (could be applied to undergraduate as well) a "union card". It is necessary to get your foot in the door. Your point demonstrates this fact. Another professor discussed the another point conncerning credentials (he was an educational psychologist). He said that the idea that school counselors should be certfied teachers with experience before becoming counselors was not necessarily the best approach in a modern global economy. It was too inbred. You have teachers growing up in a certain city, going to school in the same city and teaching in the same city. He felt you needed counslors who were, for instance, ex military. They would have been all over the world, probably from different parts of the country, and a variety of ethnic backgrounds. However, the prized counselor spots were reserved for those who jumped through the required hoops and had the union card. Such is life North