<https://smashboards.com/threads/redesigning-rebalancing-olimar.458179/>
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"Redesign/Rebalance threads\n\n:ultsamus:  Samus\n\n:ultjigglypuff:  Jigglypuff\n\n:ultdaisy:  Daisy\n\n:ultbowser:  Bowser\n\n:ulticeclimbers::ulticeclimbers:  Ice Climbers\n\n:ultsheik:  Sheik\n\n:ultzelda:  Zelda\n\n:ultdoc:  Dr. Mario\n\n:ultpichu:  Pichu\n\n:ultganondorf:  Ganondorf\n\n:ultroy:  Roy\n\n:ultkingdedede:  King Dedede\n\n:ultolimar:  Olimar\n\n:ultlittlemac: Little Mac\n\n:ultbowserjr:  Bowser Jr.\n\n\n\n\n\nMini-Redesign/Rebalance Threads\n\n:ultmario:  Mario\n\n:ultdk:  Donkey Kong\n\n:ultkirby:  Kirby\n\n:ultness:  Ness\n\n:ultlucas: Lucas\n\n:ultrosalina:  Rosalina and Luma\n\n:ultbrawler:  Mii Brawler\n\n\n\nA character near and dear to me ever since I discovered him in Brawl and proceeded to buy both Pikmin 1 and 2 and fell in love. He deserves as much love in Ultimate as he got in Brawl. I think I can deliver. So for the few who actually like this series as well as the ones showing up only now, let me give my strange ideas on how to redesign/rebalance the beloved used car salesman, Captain Olimar!\n\n------------------------------\n\nLike with all of my \"rebalancing\" exercises, I will showcase what I believe the character's purposes should be overall, as well as the strengths and weaknesses they should have.\n\n------------------------------\n\nOlimar :ultolimar:\n\nPurpose: Multipurpose zoner, comboer, and grappler/Slow/Easy to KO\n\nStrengths should be:\n\nMany disjoints\nDangerous grabs\nLong range kill moves\nGood combo potential\nHigh damage racking ability\nGreat frame data\n\nWeaknesses should be:\n\nEasy to juggle\nEasy to KO\nSlow ground and aerial movement\nPoor approach\nReliant on resource management for useful attributes\n\n-------------------------------\n\nAs always, the general statistics here are mostly for how Olimar fairs comparatively to the rest of the cast and involve some universal changes.\n\n-------------------------------\n\nGeneral Statistics: :ultolimar:\n\n\nFeather weight\n\n(Note that weight difference should be much tighter overall, so Olimar will definitely get a weight buff)\n\nLow walk speed\nLow run speed\n\n(Walk speed and run speed would be more compacted for the slowest and fastest characters)\n\nVery low horizontal airspeed\nStandardized first jump\n\n(All first jumps for all characters will be the same height: around 80% the height of the top platform in Battlefield)\n\nAverage double jump height\n\n(Baseline for double jump will be lower than it is now, but varied between characters: Olimar's new jump height would be about 65% of his current double jump height in Smash 4)\n\nVery low fall speed\n\n(Fall speed across the board should be increased, so Olimar's would too)\n\nVery low fast fall speed\nWall Jump (All characters will be able to wall jump, but not all can wall cling)\nAverage roll distance\n\n(All characters will have the same frame data on rolls, with the only real variance between them being distance)\n\nAverage shield health\n\n(Shield health would now differ between characters, with the baseline being 100 shield health. Olimar's would have 100)\n\n\n-------------------------------\n\nSo in terms of stats, not much changes here other than universal stuff like lowered double jump, a wall jump, increased fall speed if only barely, and a weight buff, if only barely. Nothing much to say about Olimar in terms of stats. He's slow on both the air and ground, which would usually hurt his neutral game if he didn't have potent projectiles and disjoints, however, they make his disadvantage state shaky at best, and his feather weight status makes him susceptible to early KO's, giving him a need for more preventative measures. Luckily, he can deliver on that front, and I think with the few changes I give him, he'll have more than just zoning to look forward to.\n\n-------------------------------\n\n:GCLT::GCB:  Shield-B:\n\n\nRemapped move: Pikmin Pluck: Forcefully plucks a Pikmin out of the ground. Can can have up to three Pikmin active at once. Cannot be used at all in the air or when three Pikmin are active. Will pluck in a specific order of Pikmin: Red, Yellow, Blue, White, Purple, Rock, then back to Red\n\nPikmin being plucked will fall from above Olimar, rather than in an arc behind him\n\nThis means they can no longer fall of edges\n\nPikmin damage stats:\n\nRed: 20% extra damage on normal attacks and smash attacks, 30% reduced damage on throws, 10% extra damage on specials\nYellow: 25% extra hitstun, 15% extra range on attacks, 15% reduced damage on normal attacks\nBlue: 60% extra damage on throws, 25% reduced damage on smash attacks\nWhite: 100% extra damage on specials, 20% reduced damage on attacks, 20% reduced damage on smash attacks\nPurple: 40% extra damage on normal attacks, 40% extra damage on smash attacks, 30% extra damage on specials, 20% reduced base knockback\nRock: 50% reduced damage on throws, 15% extra base knockback, 15% extra knockback growth, 20% reduced damage on specials\n\nPikmin general stats:\n\nRed: 8.5% health, 100% movespeed, immune to fire and explosion, above average priority\nYellow: 8.5% health, 100% movespeed, immune to electricity, low priority\nBlue: 9.5% health, 85% movespeed, immune to water and knockback from water, average priority\nWhite: 7% health, 140% movespeed, immune to poison, darkness, and magic, as well as damage over time from any source, low priority\nPurple: 13% health, 70% movespeed, no immunity, average priority\nRock: 8.5% health, 70% movespeed, consistent super armor when not in use, transcendent priority when used\n(Note: Olimar's run moves at 80% Pikmin movespeed)\n(Note: Pikmin will gain 20% damage resistance when next to Olimar)\n\n\nExtremely low startup\nExtremely low endlag\n\n\n---------------------------------\n\nSo we're going out of order here due to Olimar's unique circumstances as a fighter centering around his Pikmin. We're also going to take notes from the Inklings and give a Shield-B move for Pikmin Pluck, since it feels more like a complimentary skill than an actual move on its own.\n\nSo first off, non Pikmin related changes I would make is having this move be nearly instant in execution, to the point where plucking three Pikmin in a row would take about 0.25 seconds. Another bigger thing that would change is that when the Pikmin are plucked, they would fall directly where Olimar is instead of behind him, making them no longer prone to self-destructing should Olimar pluck too close to the edge. This is mostly for convenience. Lastly, Pikmin Pluck will not do an animation at all if you have exceeded three Pikmin or you are airborne, again for convenience.\n\nAs for Pikmin specific stuff, the biggest change is the addition of Rock Pikmin, and wow they are something. But first, some smaller changes. I slightly increased the health of the weaker Pikmin and lowered the health of the stronger Pikmin. However, there is a new addition to their health. If they are next to Olimar or being used by him in an attack for example, they will take 20% less damage, overall buffing their health, at least for the weaker ones, while the stronger ones are still about the same. Another small thing is that Pikmin would now have true priority and would fit within the boundaries of them, which changes their purposes a little bit. Last thing to note is that Pikmin would run faster overall and only Purples and Rocks would be outran by Olimar, but just barely.\n\nNow for specific changes, I would keep immunities, in order to give some specific strategies for certain matchups as needed. Some additions are Whites being immune to magic and Blues being immune to knockback from water, giving them an edge against Mario, Greninja, and Squirtle. In addition, despite not being immune to fire attacks, Whites will be immune to damage over time like from some of Roy's moves (if you say my thread on him already), giving them some extra survivability, if only a little.\n\nAs for Rock Pikmin, you can clearly see from their higher than average knockback stats, as well as super armor, that they are meant to be more defensive wall style tools for Olimar, giving him some situational rock solid defense (haha) as well as a good killing option. However, they have the sad combination of being as slow as Purple Pikmin, with only the health of Reds and Yellows, making them extremely fragile.\n\nAnother big change is that Yellow Pikmin give 25% more hitstun, but 15% less damage on normal attacks, which makes their purpose more akin to comboing moves. Some smaller changes include Blues being weaker on only smashes and being slightly slower, Whites having normal hitstun, Purples having reduced base knockback, making them a bit more unsafe to use early on, and Reds having higher priority than Purples, giving both damage based Pikmin some differences in usage.\n\nOverall, Pikmin are a bit tankier, faster, and don't have weird quirks about Pikmin Pluck. All while freeing up a move slot for something else. Pretty good if you ask me.\n\n---------------------------------\n\n:GCD::GCB:Down-B:\n\n\nPikmin Order: Will blow his Whistle very quickly, changing the behavior of the Pikmin depending on what they are doing. Can cancel any other move into Pikmin Order slightly faster than transitioning into other moves, changing its properties slightly\n\nEffects to Pikmin when not cancelled from an attack:\n\nWill make the next Pikmin to be used the second one in line\nWill call rogue Pikmin that are not in freefall\nWill call Pikmin that are currently attacking a target\n\nEffects to Pikmin when cancelled from an attack:\n\nWill make the next Pikmin to be used the one that was last used\nWill call rogue Pikmin that are not in freefall\nWill call Pikmin that are currently attacking a target\n\n\nVery low startup\nVery low endlag\n\n\n---------------------------------\n\nThe reason this is before even the normal moves in this case is because it can be used after literally any move and will transition near instantly from these moves. This will definitely require some rebalancing to make sure higher endlag moves aren't completely covered by this move, but most of Olimar's other moves have pretty low endlag anyway, so it won't be too much of a problem.\n\nHowever, the big difference is the ability to use the same Pikmin right after, which can lead to some interesting combinations of attacks, especially with Yellow Pikmin having more hitstun or Rock Pikmin being more about knocking back and defense, or White Pikmin having more immunities to pierce through, etc.\n\nThe real point of this is to both give some very quick strategizing on the Olimar player's part in terms of comboing with their Pikmin mid combo, as well as just having more options available to them, since they are no longer forced into the next Pikmin in line for their offense.\n\nTwo notes on this mechanic: there are a few exceptions, mostly from non-attacks like Pikmin Pluck, Winged Pikmin, and also Pikmin Order itself (meaning if you Pikmin Order twice in a row after an attack, it will be like doing it once in neutral), and there is no longer super armor on the startup. Seems pretty bad, but honestly, I feel the super armor was more tacked on than anything else, and Olimar doesn't really need it.\n\n---------------------------------\n\n:GCA::GCA::GCA:  Jab:\n\n\nNew sequence: Quick one-two punch combo with Rocket Fist, followed by a sideways swing with the first Pikmin in the lineup. Third attack will still deal minor damage and knockback if Olimar has no Pikmin\n\nThis means Jab 3 is a new move\n\nLow shield damage on all hits\nAll jabs are barely unsafe on shield\nAll jabs link into each other\nExtremely low startup on all jabs\nLow endlag on Jabs 1 and 2\nHigh endlag on Jab 3\nKnockback on Jab 3 is upwards at 60 degrees\nBase knockback on Jab 3 is very low to allow for combos and followups\nApproximate damage numbers:\n\nPikminless swing: 0.5%\nJab 1: 1.6%\nJab 2: 2.8%\nJab 3 Base: 4.0%\nRed Pikmin: 4.8%\nYellow Pikmin: 3.4%\nWhite Pikmin: 3.2%\nPurple Pikmin: 5.6%\n\nApproximate kill times:\n\nJab 3 Base: 275%\nRed Pikmin: 250%\nYellow Pikmin: 290%\nWhite Pikmin: 300%\nPurple Pikmin: 230%\nRock Pikmin: 245%\n\n\n\n---------------------------------\n\nFirst thing to talk about with Olimar is the fact that all of his attacks that involve Pikmin will have a hitbox now should he not have any available. They will all deal 0.5% damage and all have a set knockback that doesn't go far, as well as have only average priority with ridiculously low range, but the point of it is that it makes sure Olimar is not helpless without Pikmin.\n\nBecause of this addition, I've decided to use his Pikmin in many more of his moves as you will see soon, starting with this added third attack swinging the first Pikmin in line. In terms of utility, this doesn't do too much, however, the higher hitstun on the Yellow Pikmin may start some combos while the Rock Pikmin's transcendent priority will definitely keep people in their shield.\n\nThis third attack has high endlag, which is a blessing and a curse. Despite it being slightly unsafe on shield, meaning on shield neither Olimar nor the opponent can really followup, making it a good way to get back into neutral or start mindgames, it is susceptible to perfect shield. The upside comes with Pikmin Order. Due to the endlag, cancelling into Pikmin Order will cause about the same amount of lag either way, making Olimar's shield pressure a bit more dynamic since he can pressure with better smashes with higher priority to defend like Rocks and Reds, or potentially use the same Purple Pikmin with higher than average shield damage to threaten a kill move.\n\nRather complicated for a jab, but that's Olimar for you. :p\n\n---------------------------------\n\n:GCR::GCA:  FTilt:\n\n\nA windup punch from Rocket Fist\nAverage priority\nAverage shield damage\nSafe on shield\nAbove average startup\nAbove average endlag\nKnocks back shielded opponents\nKnockback is at the Sakurai angle\nApproximate damage numbers: 11.5%\nApproximate kill time: 170%\n\n\n---------------------------------\n\nOlimar's first Pikminless move in this new moveset idea I have. This move is mostly for anti-approach and spacing, as well as potential tech chases at mid percents due to the Sakurai angle. It also is a good shield poke and one of Olimar's few shield pokes that give him complete advantage when hitting a shield. It can be whiff punished quite well though, since its endlag is high.However, it does have quite a bit of kill power at times of desperation. Overall a simple move mostly used for shield pressure and spacing with a niche of catching crossups due to its long startup.\n\n---------------------------------\n\n:GCU::GCA:  UTilt:\n\n\nDoes a hopping ice skating style twirl. Hits 7 times\n\nIs able to be reversed on startup\n\nAverage priority\nVery low startup\nLow endlag\nKnockback is in front of Olimar at 30 degrees\nBase knockback very low to allow for combos\nVery low shield damage\nSafe on shield\nApproximate damage numbers:\n\nMultihit: 0.6% * 6\nFinal hit: 4.0%\nTotal: 7.6%\n\nApproximate kill times:\n\nFinal hit: 320%\n\n\n\n---------------------------------\n\nOverall, the same move in the fact it has the same damage, frame data, and shield damage. However, it is definitively safe on shield and it has a new knockback angle as well as the ability to be reversed. These cool mechanics combined allows for mindgame potential with trying to stop Olimar's combos with DI by not making it apparent which way Olimar will knock them away from him. I think it's self-explanatory, but I hope it's a cool enough thought.\n\n---------------------------------\n\n:GCD::GCA:  DTilt:\n\n\nSlides along the ground. Scoots forward while doing so\nLingering hitbox\nKnockback is upwards at 80 degrees\nBase knockback is very low to allow for combos\nBelow average priority\nLow shield damage\nBarely unsafe on shield\nApproximate damage numbers: 6.0%\nApproximate kill time: 300%\n\n\n---------------------------------\n\nI pretty much wouldn't change this move. Good anti-approach, combo starter, combo move, shield pressure, etc. It's perfectly fine. That is all lol.\n\n---------------------------------\n\n:GCR::GCR::GCA:  Dash Attack:\n\n\nNew move: Olimar holds the first Pikmin in the lineup and does a cartwheel with the Pikmin in tow throughout. Can destroy projectiles throughout the move only if Pikmin is present. Can do damage and knockback even without Pikmin. Has an early and late hitbox on the Pikmin, as well as an early and late hitbox on the body\n\n(Projectile destruction is a universal aspect of all dash attacks)\nPikmin will tank the projectile damage if they are present\n\nVery low startup\nLow endlag\nKnockback on both early hitboxes is sideways at 40 degrees\nKnockback on both late hitboxes is upwards at 60 degrees\nLow shield damage on all hitboxes\nBarely unsafe on shield for early hitboxes\nUnsafe on shield for late hitboxes\nApproximate damage numbers:\n\nPikminless: 0.5%\nBody (early): 6.0%\nBody (late): 4.0%\nPikmin base (early): 7.5%\n\nRed Pikmin: 9.0%\nYellow Pikmin: 6.4%\nWhite Pikmin: 6.0%\nPurple Pikmin: 10.5%\n\nPikmin base (late): 5.0%\n\nRed Pikmin: 6.0%\nYellow Pikmin: 4.2%\nWhite Pikmin: 4.0%\nPurple Pikmin: 7.0%\n\n\nApproximate kill times:\n\nBody (early): 180%\nBody (late): 280%\nPikmin base (early): 155%\n\nRed Pikmin: 140%\nYellow Pikmin: 170%\nWhite Pikmin: 175%\nPurple Pikmin: 125%\nRock Pikmin: 135%\n\nPikmin base (late): 200%\n\nRed Pikmin: 180%\nYellow Pikmin: 215%\nWhite Pikmin: 220%\nPurple Pikmin: 160%\nRock Pikmin: 175%\n\n\n\n\n---------------------------------\n\nSolidifying Olimar's poor approach, this dash attack has the universal projectile destruction based around the Pikmin being present. This means the only way to get this gift is to sacrifice Pikmin health. However, due to immunities, this can still be used well enough. Not only that, it is unsafe on shield on the late hitboxes, which is unusual for the dash attacks I've gone through. This means this move will mostly be used for the early hitbox. However, the early hitbox has a worse combo angle, but a much better killing angle, and that's the good thing about this move.\n\nIt actually has respectable kill potential, as well as combo potential if you hit the late hitboxes somehow. This makes this a weird hybrid of read based combo starter and quick OOS kill option with the right Pikmin, if only later on.\n\n---------------------------------\n\n:GCCR:  FSmash:\n\n\nCommands the first Pikmin in the lineup to do a corkscrew tackle in front of Olimar. Has three hitboxes; an early sweetspot, clean hit, and sourspot near the end. Has different distances depending on the Pikmin used. Command gesture will deal slight damage and knockback if a Pikmin is not present. Can command Pikmin off edges, allowing active hitboxes off edges\n\nPikmin has super armor while charging and cannot die until hitbox of this move ends\nTackle distances:\n\nRed: Average\nYellow: Above average\nBlue: Slightly below average\nWhite: High\nPurple: Low\nRock: Below average\n\n\nAverage startup\nLow endlag\nKnockback is at the Sakurai angle for all Pikmin and all hitboxes\nVery low shield damage\n\nCommand without Pikmin does no shield damage\n\nBarely unsafe on shield both with Pikmin and without\nApproximate damage numbers (Early / Clean / Late):\n\nCommand with Pikmin: 0.5%\nBase damage: 12.0%-16.8% / 10.0%-14.0% / 8.0%-11.2%\nRed Pikmin: 14.4%-20.2% / 12.0%-16.8% / 9.6%-13.4%\nBlue Pikmin: 9.0%-12.6% / 7.5%-10.5% / 6.0%-8.4%\nWhite Pikmin: 9.6%-13.4% / 8.0%-11.2% / 6.4%-9.0%\nPurple Pikmin: 16.8%-23.5% / 14.0%-19.6% / 11.2%-15.7%\n\nApproximate kill times:\n\nBase: 140%-120% / 150%-130% / 180%-160%\nRed Pikmin: 120%-100% / 125%-105% / 160%-140%\nBlue Pikmin: 150%-130% / 160%-140% / 185%-165%\nWhite Pikmin: 145%-125% / 155%-135% / 185%-165%\nPurple Pikmin: 105%-85% / 110%-90% / 140%-120%\nRock Pikmin: 120%-100% / 125%-105% / 160%-140%\n\n\n\n---------------------------------\n\nA lot of numbers because of the recalculations of the Pikmin, but overall, the same exact move. However, it would definitely deal a lot less shield damage in order to give Olimar a pressuring weakness should he not use his grabs. In return, this move can't really be fully punished by an opponent both on whiff and on shield hit, making it a relatively safe move to just throw out once in a while. Just remember your Pikmin is very vulnerable when you do. It also would have less kill potential overall, except with Purples where it is about the same.\n\nThe addition of the super armor on charge is a bit complicated, especially with the addition of Rock Pikmin. The idea is that Pikmin simply aren't allowed to die or even move while in a charge, taking away the strange \"zombie Pikmin\" glitch/bug/whatever. However, because priority is now a thing on them, they can still stuff out other moves if they have higher priority AND even if that move kills them, it's just the move itself will still technically come out. So the idea is that if the Pikmin is beaten out, the move does nothing and the Pikmin takes damage and can die after the full animation is done.\n\nHowever, the better part is if the Pikmin beats out the move, which is where Rock Pikmin come in. Because they always have transcendent priority, they will still take the damage, but the move will come out anyway, so even if they die to the opponent's move, the attack will not be stopped. This is how it works for all moments where the Pikmin has the higher priority, I just used Rock Pikmin because it's guaranteed. This is also why despite them getting super armor like Rock Pikmin, Rock Pikmin will still be the best Pikmin for trading blows, with the second place being Reds.\n\nSo other than a few nuances here and there, this move will be used pretty much how it always has.\n\n---------------------------------\n\n:GCCU:  USmash:\n\n\nCommands the first Pikmin in the lineup to do an airborne cartwheeling tackle above Olimar. Has different heights depending on Pikmin used. Has an early and late hitbox. Command without Pikmin will deal slight damage and knockback\n\nHas an extremely lingering hitbox\nHas blind spots on both sides of Olimar\nPikmin has super armor while charging and cannot die until hitbox of this move ends\nJump heights:\n\nRed: Average\nYellow: High\nBlue: Average\nWhite: Above average\nPurple: Below average\nRock: Low\n\n\nBelow average startup\nAverage endlag\nBarely safe on shield\nAverage shield damage\nKnockback is upwards at 85 degrees\nApproximate damage numbers: (Early / Late)\n\nBase: 12.0%-16.8% / 10.0%-14.0% \nRed Pikmin: 14.4%-20.2% / 12.0%-16.8% \nBlue Pikmin: 9.0%-12.6% / 7.5%-10.5% \nWhite Pikmin: 9.6%-13.4% / 8.0%-11.2%\nPurple Pikmin: 16.8%-23.5% / 14.0%-19.6%\n\nApproximate kill times: (Early / Late)\n\nBase: 135%-115% / 170%-150% \nRed Pikmin: 115%-95% / 150%-130%\nBlue Pikmin: 160%-140% / 200%-220%\nWhite Pikmin: 150%-130% / 195%-215%\nPurple Pikmin: 100%-80% / 140%-120%\nRock Pikmin: 115%-95% / 145%-125%\n\n\n\n---------------------------------\n\nDefinitely Olimar's least dependable smash attack, but it is fantastic against landing opponents and platforms above due to the lingering hitbox even outlasting airdodges and spotdodges. It does have blind spots and the highest amount of endlag of his smash attacks, but it's also the safest on shield, making it actually a good offensive smash, especially against jumping opponents after they are pressured in shield by Olimar. Lastly, it kills very easily for a vertical kill move, which amplifies its offensive usage even more.\n\nOther than these minor changes, the overall use, like FSmash, is intact.\n\n---------------------------------\n\n:GCCD:  DSmash:\n\n\nCommands the first and second Pikmin in the lineup to tackle on either side of him. First Pikmin will be in front of Olimar and the second will be behind him. Has different distances depending on the PIkmin used. Has an early and late hitbox. Command without Pikmin will deal slight damage and knockback\n\nThe next Pikmin to be used will be the third one in the lineup by default\nPikmin has super armor while charging and cannot die until hitbox of this move ends\nTackle distances:\n\nRed: Average\nYellow: Above average\nBlue: Slightly below average\nWhite: High\nPurple: Low\nRock: Below average\n\n\nLow startup\nLow endlag\nVery low shield damage\n\nCommand without Pikmin\n\nBarely unsafe on shield\nKnockback is sideways at 40 degrees\nApproximate damage numbers (Sweetspot / Sourspot):\n\nCommand without Pikmin: 0.5%\nBase: 10.5%-14.7% / 8.0%-11.2%\nRed Pikmin: 12.6%-17.6% / 9.6%-13.4%\nBlue Pikmin: 7.9%-11.0% / 6.0%-8.4%\nWhite Pikmin: 8.4%-11.8% / 6.4%-9.0%\nPurple Pikmin: 14.7%-20.6% / 11.2%-15.7%\n\nApproximate kill times:\n\nBase: 155%-135% / 160%-140%\nRed Pikmin: 135%-115% / 140%-120%\nBlue Pikmin: 180%-200% / 185%-205%\nWhite Pikmin: 170%-190% / 175%-195%\nPurple Pikmin: 125%-105% / 130%-110%\nRock Pikmin: 135%-115% / 140%-120%\n\n\n\n---------------------------------\n\nLike Forward Smash, the functionality of this move is pretty much the same. However, with the inclusion of Rock Pikmin, this gives a nice anti-approach option with the transcendent priority. In addition, the Purple Pikmin have the same duration as the other Pikmin now in terms of hitbox. They still barely go anywhere, but now there's some consistency.\n\nThe real cool addition is the Pikmin Order transition allowing some awesome and dynamic Pikmin switch ability, especially considering how quick this move is. So if you want to reuse the first Pikmin, just do Pikmin Order after some other quick move like UAir, if you want the second one, just don't Pikmin Order, if you want to go straight to the third, do DSmash, but if you want to use this good anti-approach tool while still using the first Pikmin, you can do that.\n\nI don't know. I just find it nice being able to switch around your Pikmin this well.\n\n---------------------------------\n\n:GCX::GCA:  NAir:\n\n\nNew move: Olimar will take the first and second Pikmin in the lineup and will rotate them both on either side of him. The first Pikmin in the lineup will be in front, and the second one in the back. Attack without Pikmin will do slight damage and knockback\n\nThe same type of hitbox is used on both sides of Olimar if Pikmin are present\nThe next Pikmin to be used will be the third one in the lineup by default\n\nVery low startup\nLow endlag\nLow landing lag\nKnockback for all Pikmin and hitboxes are at the Sakurai angle\nSafe on shield both with and without Pikmin\nNo shield damage\nApproximate damage numbers:\n\nEmpty attack: 0.5%\nBase: 7.0%\nRed Pikmin: 8.4%\nYellow Pikmin: 6.0%\nWhite Pikmin: 5.6%\nPurple Pikmin: 9.8%\n\nApproximate kill times:\n\nBase: 400%\nRed Pikmin: 370%\nYellow Pikmin: 430%\nWhite Pikmin: 450%\nPurple Pikmin: 345%\nRock Pikmin: 360%\n\n\n\n---------------------------------\n\nSo with the advent of Olimar's Pikminless attacks actually having hitboxes, I think he no longer has the need for an aerial move that doesn't use Pikmin at all. With that, I came up with this.\n\nThe usual neutral special where he hits to both sides of him, and like Down Smash, it uses two Pikmin at once. Because of this, it shares the cool dynamic of Pikmin Order with Down Smash, but in the air instead, allowing for more exact switching between Pikmin while edgeguarding for example.\n\nOther than this little thing, it's your average neutral aerial, mostly used for landing, spacing, comboing, etc.\n\n---------------------------------\n\n:GCX::GCR::GCA:  FAir:\n\n\nSwings the first Pikmin in the lineup downward in an arc in front of him. Has an early and late hitbox. Attacking without Pikmin will do minor damage and knockback\nVery low startup\nAverage startup\nLow landing lag\nBarely unsafe for early hitbox\nUnsafe on shield for late hitbox\nAverage shield damage\nKnockback is upwards at 60 degrees for early hitbox\nKnockback is upwards behind Olimar at 60 degrees for late hitbox\nBase knockback is below average to allow for combos and followups\nApproximate damage numbers: (Early / Late)\n\nPikminless: 0.5%\nBase: 7.0% / 6.5%\nRed Pikmin: 8.4% / 7.8%\nYellow Pikmin: 6.0% / 5.5%\nWhite Pikmin: 5.6% / 5.2%\nPurple Pikmin: 9.8% / 9.1%\n\nApproximate kill times: (Early / Late)\n\nBase: 160% / 240%\nRed Pikmin: 140% / 225%\nYellow Pikmin: 175% / 255%\nWhite Pikmin: 180% / 265%\nPurple Pikmin: 125% / 200%\nRock Pikmin: 140% / 220%\n\n\n\n---------------------------------\n\nSo this seems very similar to NAir at first glance, minus the fact that it's only on one side and it's explicitly unsafe on shield at times. However, here's a few difference:\n\nFirstly, it is not at the Sakurai angle, meaning this will always pop someone in the air, making a fantastic combo starter, even at higher percentages if you hit the late hitbox. Speaking of, the late hitbox puts the enemy behind Olimar, giving him a quick combo or followup into his actual killing aerial, BAir. This hit is unsafe on shield and it only really hits below Olimar, but it's absolutely devastating if done correctly.\n\nSecondly, it has higher shield damage, meaning it can be used to approach, albeit poorly (fitting Olimar's weakness) with a bit of immediate threat. I think these are enough difference between the two. NAir is a get off me tool and good neutral tool, while FAir is a more risky/rewarding offensive advantage starter on both the air and ground. And let's not forget it is still good at edgeguarding the opponent.\n\n---------------------------------\n\n:GCX::GCL::GCA:  BAir:\n\n\nSwings the first Pikmin in the lineup behind him in an upward arc. Attacking without Pikmin does minor damage and knockback\nBelow average startup\nAbove average endlag\nAbove average landing lag\nKnockback is sideways at 40 degrees\nBarely unsafe on shield\nLow shield damage\nApproximate damage numbers:\n\nPikminless: 0.5%\nBase: 10.5% \nRed Pikmin: 12.6% \nYellow Pikmin: 8.9% \nWhite Pikmin: 8.4% \nPurple Pikmin: 14.7%\n\nApproximate kill times:\n\nBase: 130%\nRed Pikmin: 115%\nYellow Pikmin: 145%\nWhite Pikmin: 150%\nPurple Pikmin: 100%\nRock Pikmin: 115%\n\n\n\n---------------------------------\n\nOlimar's only truly killing aerial, and it got overal nerfed here to account for the better overall control of his air speed as well as combo potential. Now it has slightly lower damage, slightly higher startup and endlag, and a fair amount of landing lag, making it a meh tool to use in the neutral compared to other aerials like NAir and (as you will see) UAir. It can still get by if hitting a shield, but overall this move is poor in neutral scenarios and is relegated to the finisher in the air.\n\nHowever, it gains some kill power, making it even a respectable kill move off the stage for even White Pikmin, whereas Reds, Rocks, and Purples will just outright kill without remorse.\n\n---------------------------------\n\n:GCX::GCU::GCA:  UAir:\n\n\nTwirls the first Pikmin in the lineup upwards, hitting three times. Can also hit without Pikmin, dealing minor damage and knockback\nVery low startup\nLow endlag\nLow landing lag\nKnockback is behind Olimar upwards at 100 degrees\nVery low shield damage\nBarely unsafe on shield\nApproximate damage numbers (First / Second / Third):\n\nPikminless Multihit: 0.1%/0.1%/0.3%\nBase: 2.0% / 2.0% / 4.0%\nRed Pikmin: 2.4% / 2.4% / 4.8%\nYellow Pikmin: 1.7% / 1.7% / 3.4%\nWhite Pikmin: 1.6% / 1.6% / 3.2%\nPurple Pikmin: 2.8% / 2.8% / 5.6%\n\nApproximate kill times:\n\nFinal hit base: 175%\nRed Pikmin: 155%\nYellow Pikmin: 185%\nWhite Pikmin: 190%\nPurple Pikmin: 135%\nRock Pikmin: 150%\n\n\n\n---------------------------------\n\nThis move now does multihits, making it a bit better at zoning out people from above, as well as sharking. And just like every other small hit with Yellow Pikmin, it works as a good combo move at lower percentages, as well as a niche ceiling killer at higher percentages with Rocks and Purples. The last big change is the lowered landing lag in order to not force you to land with a Pikmin Order cancel every time like L-Cancelling does (lol). Small damage nerf to compensate.\n\n---------------------------------\n\n:GCX::GCD::GCA:  DAir:\n\n\nSwings the first Pikmin in the lineup downwards in a somersault motion. Will do minor damage and knockback without Pikmin\n\nNo longer has a lingering hitbox\nNo longer has a meteor smash\n\nVery low startup\nBelow average endlag\nAverage landing lag\nUnsafe on shield\nAbove average shield damage\nKnockback is upwards in front of Olimar at 75 degrees\nBase knockback is very low to allow for combos\nKnockback doesn't take damage of this move into account\nApproximate damage numbers:\n\nPikminless: 0.5%\nBase: 13.5%\nRed Pikmin: 16.2%\nYellow Pikmin: 11.5%\nWhite Pikmin: 10.8%\nPurple Pikmin: 18.9%\n\nApproximate kill times:\n\nBase: 270%\nRed Pikmin: 250%\nYellow Pikmin: 285%\nWhite Pikmin: 290%\nPurple Pikmin: 230%\nRock Pikmin: 240%\n\n\n\n---------------------------------\n\nA repurposed move stemming (lol) away from the meteor smashes of a lot of characters to a good, high damage combo starter with quite a bit of risk to it. This risk is there because Olimar's landing options aren't supposed to be great, however, if you get this move to hit, you will have quite a high damage combo starter to work with, having more damage than Olimar's smash attacks, even if it requires precision. I can easily see this being used mostly as a quick OOS option should the enemy's hurtbox be right on top of Olimar.\n\nBut again, unlike a lot of Olimar's other moves, it has some lag to it, as well as landing lag, so use it wisely.\n\n---------------------------------\n\n:GCB:  Neutral-B:\n\n\nRemapped move: Pikmin Throw: Quickly throws the first Pikmin in line. The throw itself will deal miniscule knockback and damage. If a Pikmin hits an enemy, they will either latch onto them dealing consistent damage without hitstun, or simply deal knockback and damage with hitstun. Can be angled in all directions. Will go through shielded opponents, ignoring them completely\n\nPikmin Order will now be able to call back Pikmin that were thrown and have not latched onto anyone yet\nRock Pikmin will not latch on, while all other Pikmin colors will\nLatch will decrease in time the more damage percentage the enemy has\nThrow speeds:\n\nRed: Average\nYellow: Slow\nBlue: Below average\nWhite: Fast\nPurple: Very slow\nRock: Average\n\n\nLow startup\nLow endlag\nKnockback for the throw itself is at the Sakurai angle\nKnockback for Rock Pikmin is sideways at 35 degrees\nEmpty throw is barely unsafe on shield\nLow shield damage\n\nNo shield damage on empty throw\n\nLatch hit interval: 0.5 seconds\nMaximum latch time: 8 seconds\nApproximate damage numbers:\n\nEmpty Pikmin throw damage: 0.5%\nBase throw damage: 5.0%\n\nRed Pikmin: 5.5%\nWhite Pikmin: 10.0%\nPurple Pikmin: 6.0%\nRock Pikmin: 4.0%\n\nBase latch damage: 0.5%\n\nRed Pikmin: 0.55%\nWhite Pikmin: 1.0%\nPurple Pikmin: 0.65%\n\nTotal base damage maximum: 10.0%\n\nRed Pikmin: 11.0%\nWhite Pikmin: 20.0%\nPurple Pikmin: 12.0%\n\n\nApproximate kill times:\n\nRock Pikmin: 170%\n\n\n\n---------------------------------\n\nThe bread and butter of Olimar is buffed here I would say. While it technically has a slight damage reduction, plus it has an extra second making it difficult to get full damage from the Pikmin, the damage interval being down to every half second means the damage can rack up safer before the enemy kills the Pikmin. In addition, Purple Pikmin can now latch, making Rock Pikmin the designated \"Purple\" projectile. However, since Rocks do less damage on specials, the throw is actually really weak damage wise and is mostly meant for knocking away opponents as well as causing tech chase situations. The Purples and Reds can deal some extra damage sure, but Whites are still the kings of latch damage. Yellows and Blues are just okay.\n\nHowever, the biggest change I think involves the fact that because this is remapped to the neutral-B, you can throw it in any direction you wish, making it much more versatile in the air. Just an example, imagine being juggled and Olimar having a Rock Pikmin (with super armor remember) to throw downwards against the sharking opponent. And that's only one scenario.\n\nBecause of this change in use, the Pikmin trajectory differences are taken out in favor for speeds. Yellows will be slow to work with their arcing trajectory which would still be intact if throwing sideways at least. Reds and Rocks would be the baseline, Blue, like they do presently, will stop just shy of Reds, and Whites and Purples will remain the top and bottom in terms of speed.\n\nLast potentially huge change is the synergy with Pikmin Order. Now because Pikmin Order can be transitioned from Pikmin Throw and it doesn't change order when you do so, Olimar has the ability to potentially cause the enemy to quickly shield a Pikmin Throw->Pikmin Order as a fake out should he wish to. This gives Olimar a way to cause an approaching enemy to shield without leaving his Pikmin vulnerable.\n\n---------------------------------\n\n:GCL::GCB::GCR:  Side-B:\n\n\nNew move: Pikmin March: All three Pikmin in the lineup will position themselves in a line in front of Olimar and will be desynced from him. Anyone that passes the Pikmin will be knocked back slightly and have the Pikmin latch onto them. If Olimar passes through any of the desynced Pikmin, that individual Pikmin will be synced back to Olimar\n\nLatch cannot work on shielded opponents\nRock Pikmin will not latch on, while all other Pikmin colors will\nLatch will decrease in time the more damage percentage the enemy has\n\nVery low startup\nVery low endlag\nKnockback is at the Sakurai angle\nVery low shield damage\nLatch hit interval: 0.5 seconds\nMaximum latch time: 8 seconds\nApproximate damage numbers:\n\nBase knockback hit damage: 5.0%\n\nRed Pikmin: 5.5%\nWhite Pikmin: 10.0%\nPurple Pikmin: 6.0%\nRock Pikmin: 4.0%\n\nBase latch damage: 0.5%\n\nRed Pikmin: 0.55%\nWhite Pikmin: 1.0%\nPurple Pikmin: 0.65%\n\nTotal base damage maximum: 10.0%\n\nRed Pikmin: 11.0%\nWhite Pikmin: 20.0%\nPurple Pikmin: 12.0%\n\n\nApproximate kill times:\n\nRock Pikmin: 550%\nAll other Pikmin: 600%\n\n\n\n---------------------------------\n\nThis is sort of a newer version of Pikmin Throw, but allows for Olimar to have slight amounts of stage control on the ground due to the Pikmin not only latching to opponents, but also knocking them back slightly. In addition to this, they will stay in place, which gives Olimar some much needed active defense, especially considering his light weight and slow overall speed. It can also trap opponents in a corner, especially at the ledge.\n\nBut if that wasn't enough, Olimar can sync up with a specific Pikmin that is in the march formation to attack with while leaving the others on standby. This not only mirrors the Pikmin games where you separate Pikmin colors, but in Smash specifically, it can allow for more use of only one Pikmin color if needed. The biggest downside to this move is the fact that the Pikmin are desynced from Olimar, and thus lose the damage resistance that was mentioned before, making them very vulnerable to attacks. However, considering how spammable they are, the only way this move is only a detriment is if you wish for a specific colored lineup, and even then, you can always Pikmin Order to bring them back.\n\nI think this move will give Olimar a lot more options for defensive play, as well as catching opponents that want to camp him by running away by always having some Pikmin on standby to run into.\n\n---------------------------------\n\n:GCU::GCB:  Up-B:\n\n\nWinged Pikmin: Call in two Winged Pikmin to carry Olimar and his Pikmin lineup. Works off of a stamina system. The speed and lift of the Winged Pikmin is dependent on how many Pikmin are being carried where lower numbers mean more speed. Can be controlled throughout. Will cause Olimar to fall in helpless state by default if the duration is up. Can cancel early with an attack, after which the helpless state will start\n\nPikmins' stamina will replenish while Olimar doesn't use them\nTakes about 4 seconds to fully deplete stamina\nTakes about 8 seconds to fully replenish while not using it\nWeights for other Pikmin:\n\nRed: Average\nYellow: Below average\nBlue: Average\nWhite: Low\nPurple: High\nRock: Above average\n\n\nExtremely low startup\nVery low endlag\n\n\n---------------------------------\n\nPretty much no change on this move. Still a great way to traverse the map quickly. The real power comes from the fact that Pikmin Throw now allows Pikmin Order to call Pikmin in midair, which no longer makes getting the effective version of this a guaranteed sacrifice. However, even after using Pikmin Order, Olimar will become helpless, so there's still a bit of a choice you need to make regardless.\n\n---------------------------------\n\n:GCZ:  Grab and Pummel:\n\n\nMid-long range tether grab. All Pikmin presently in the lineup will attempt to grab. If no Pikmin are present, Olimar will grab on his lonesome, having a shorter range\n\nNo longer has different distances depending on Pikmin\nIf Pikminless, Olimar will not use Pikmin for any throws, regardless of if Pikmin become synced back to him between grabbing and throwing\n\nAverage tether grab frame data\nSlow melee grab frame data when Pikminless\nApproximate pummel damage numbers: 1.0%\nApproximate pummel interval: 0.5 seconds\n\n---------------------------------\n\nI think I will work with Olimar's new grab in Ultimate here, where he uses all three Pikmin to grab and pummels himself. The tether would still be pretty standard and the distance of the Pikmin wouldn't vary anymore, making Purples far better at grabbing, especially considering the damage nerf on them for throws.\n\nNote that to keep consistent with the theme of not being helpless without Pikmin, Olimar will grab normally when no Pikmin are in his lineup. Despite the slow frame data for a melee grab, it is still marginally faster than his normal grab, albeit without the properties of a tether grab, which my changes would actually make a good thing to have compared to a tether grab. Pummel is the same regardless.\n\n---------------------------------\n\n:GCZ::GCR:  FThrow:\n\n\nAll Pikmin will heave the opponent forward at once. If no Pikmin are present, Olimar will push them forward with his fist instead\n\nAll Pikmin used in the grab will add their damage to the total of the throw\n\nAverage endlag\nKnockback angle is sideways at 35 degrees\nApproximate damage numbers:\n\nPikminless: 1.0%\nBase Pikmin damage: 4.0%\nRed: 2.8%\nBlue: 6.4%\nRock: 2.0%\n\nApproximate kill time:\n\nPikminless: 500%\nBase with three: 175%\nBase with two: 210%\nBase with one: 230%\nDifference per Red: +15%\nDifference per Blue: -20%\nDifference per Rock: +15%\n\n\n\n---------------------------------\n\nSo a bit different from the new version where the lead Pikmin decides the brunt of the damage, I decided to instead have a throw system where all Pikmin contribute equally and have a set damage amount given to the enemy. Red and Rock are far worse and Blue, as always, is the absolute best by a wide margin, both in damage and killing. On the off chance you have three Blues, this throw actually becomes a respectable kill option.\n\nCompared to other throws though, it is mostly just for stage control and little else, and does average damage.\n\n---------------------------------\n\n:GCZ::GCL: BThrow:\n\n\nAll Pikmin pick up the opponent above Olimar's head and slam them down behind him. If no Pikmin are available, Olimar will headbutt the opponent behind him\n\nAll Pikmin used in the grab will add their damage to the total of the throw\n\nAverage startup\nKnockback is sideways at 45 degrees\nHigh DI deviation\nApproximate damage numbers: \n\nPikminless: 1.0%\nBase Pikmin damage: 2.5%\nRed: 1.8%\nBlue: 4.0%\nRock: 1.3%\n\nApproximate kill times:\n\nPikminless: 500%\nBase with three: 130%\nBase with two: 160%\nBase with one: 190%\nDifference per Red: +10%\nDifference per Blue: -15%\nDifference per Rock: +15%\n\n\n\n---------------------------------\n\nThe designated kill throw by default. Great when against the ledge. However, it has a high DI deviation and as always, the kill potential shrinks immensely the fewer Pikmin you have grabbing. However, adding even one Blue Pikmin can turn this into a disgustingly good back throw, rivaling even Incineroar and Ness. The main downside is that it does almost no damage whatsoever compared to other throws.\n\n---------------------------------\n\n:GCZ::GCU: UThrow:\n\n\nAll Pikmin will toss the opponent up and headbutt them in unison, knocking them upwards. If Pikminless, Olimar will do the same, but with his helmet\n\nAll Pikmin used in the grab will add their damage to the total of the throw\n\nAbove average endlag\nAbove average DI deviation\nKnockback is exactly upwards at 90 degrees\nBase knockback is high\nApproximate damage numbers:\n\nPikminless: 1.0%\nBase Pikmin damage: 5.8%\nRed: 4.0%\nBlue: 9.3%\nRock: 2.9%\n\nApproximate kill times:\n\nPikminless: 500%\nBase with three: 215%\nBase with two: 230%\nBase with one: 250%\nDifference per Red: +15%\nDifference per Blue: -10%\nDifference per Rock: +20%\n\n\n\n---------------------------------\n\nHere we have a throw that is basically for only one thing, and that is damage. Sure, it also can set up nice sharking scenarios and maybe get some chases down, but the high endlag and DI deviation means this is the go to damage racker of the throws, and boy does it work, because even with basic throwing PIkmin, this throw rivals heavyweight throws like Bowser and King K. Rool in terms of damage, and with Blues, it can surpass them quickly. And even with Reds and Rocks, it is only enough of a damage penalty to rival Olimar's other throws' damage, so doing this throw when having bad throw Pikmin is still a good investment.\n\n---------------------------------\n\n:GCZ::GCD:  DThrow:\n\n\nAll Pikmin forcefully ground pound on the opponent in unison, sending them flying. If Pikminless, Olimar will do the same, only head first with his helmet\n\nAll Pikmin used in the grab will add their damage to the total of the throw\n\nLow endlag\nKnockback is upwards at 75 degrees\nBase knockback is low to allow for combos\nApproximate damage numbers:\n\nPikminless: 1.0%\nBase Pikmin damage: 3.0%\nRed: 2.1%\nBlue: 4.8%\nRock: 1.5%\n\nApproximate damage numbers:\n\nPikminless: 500%\nBase with three: 195%\nBase with two: 225%\nBase with one: 240%\nDifference per Red: +10%\nDifference per Blue: -25%\nDifference per Rock: +15%\n\n\n\n---------------------------------\n\nThis is the designated combo throw. It has low endlag, low damage compared to the other throws, and low kill power... except when Blues are involved, because this throw has the special property of being powered by Blue Pikmin far more than the others, and with three Blues at once, it can potentially become an honest kill throw just like Back throw but without the high DI deviation. Still, Back throw is more reliable for killing and this more so for combos, but it can really surprise the opponent. Otherwise, Blues doing this throw is not the greatest due to potentially ruining its combo potential, so treat this as a tradeoff for Blues' power.\n\n---------------------------------\n\nNow I am really done, now that the grabs are finished. I like Olimar in Ultimate, but I still think these tweaks to him would be welcome regardless."
<https://smashboards.com/threads/redesigning-rebalancing-olimar.458179/>