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Monday, 12 February, 2001, 13:20 GMT
Teachers' pay: Is it good enough?
Teachers in England and Wales are to get a general pay rise of at least 3.7% this year.
For schools that are experiencing problems in recruiting staff, there will be up to 6% for newly qualified teachers.
But one teaching union said the pay increase was "pathetic," and many believe it will not help to attract new people to the profession.
What do you think of the pay rises?Will it be enough to attract new recruits? What else can be done to tackle teaching shortages?
This Talking Point is now closed. A selection of your e-mails are posted below.
In my opinion teachers are merely overpaid babysitters.
I'm somewhat surprised to read quite a number of responses saying that pay isn't the main issue. It shows that the Government should adopt a much more imaginative approach to solve the problem rather than throwing money at it. Perhaps employing some auxiliary members of staff to handle non-teaching related work will help to ease the pressure on teachers?
Anna Hornsey, UK
A good friend of mine is a teacher. Her job is more stressful than mine, she has no power to "kick back" at people who cause her grief, she is constantly prevented from actually teaching as she is expected to take part in the grand social engineering experiment. She works later than I do, takes work home and frequently works weekends. Her prescribed holidays are at times when air fares are at a premium so she has to pay more to actually take a holiday. Her salary is less than one third of mine. Why does she do it? I don't know.
Whilst I recognise that teachers do a difficult and important job, they must accept that they do NOT get a poor salary. True, it may not measure up to some other professionals, but it is more than a living wage, and is more than a lot of other "professionals" who also work long, hard hours get. So please, teachers, don't plead poverty - just admit that you want your salary to be comparable to those in the City!
Norman Bell, UK
I applied five times over a period of ten years for teacher training but was turned down each time. I am a science graduate (upper second). I have now given up any thought of this career because I think that they are not serious about teacher shortages, also successive governments have destroyed morale with increased red tape.
As a Primary teacher I averaged 55 hours a week. For the 40 weeks I worked (and did I work!) this makes 2200 hours. (work a basic salary of £17,000 out as an hourly rate and compare with others!). Had I been given a contract with specified hours e.g 37 hours a week and four weeks annual leave, I would only have worked 1776 hours a year (unless I did overtime for which I was paid or received time off in lieu - an unknown concept for teachers). The difference in hours means that I was actually working 424 hours per year more than my non-teaching friends, which equates to an extra 111/2 weeks' work. No wonder teachers are leaving the profession - I did and now enjoy a job with 37 hours a week, five weeks' paid holiday and if I have to work late, I get paid overtime and time off in lieu.
Being more selective in the recruitment process would pay dividends.
The emphasis on reducing class sizes would not be necessary if all teachers were able to interest and control their classes.
I was taught very effectively in the state sector in classes of 35 and 40. With competent teachers class sizes can increase and the teacher shortage disappears.
Pay is an issue for teachers, it is simply uncompetitive with other graduate professions - particularly when the top of the pay scale is reached. Personally, I feel the work conditions are also unacceptable. I regularly work 60 - 70 hour weeks not to keep ahead but merely to survive. This burden of paperwork and bureaucracy (which we were assured would be reduced, just ask anyone who filled in a threshold assessment form) is the real stumbling block. Teachers need a life outside of teaching to remain fresh and enthusiastic to a very demanding job. In short are we really surprised that there is a recruitment crisis, that standards of work are low and today pupils behaviour and discipline are out of control? A "sticking plaster" for the education crisis is no longer sufficient, a real overhaul is needed to return education to the status it deserves.
Simon Moore, UK
There is one fact that no one has mentioned. Today's teacher shortages are a portent of disaster to come. Look at the high percentage of teachers in their fifties, who will be retiring over the next few years. What is that going to do to the teacher shortages in state schools?
Young parents had better start saving for private education now, it's all that will be available in a few years.
Teachers are paid more than enough, especially when you take into consideration the three months annual leave that comes with the job. I know teachers don't like us talking about the amount of holiday they get each year, but there aren't many jobs that pay a starting salary of at least £15000+ and offer ten or twelve weeks off each year.
Teachers' pay is not good but the working conditions are worse. Many schools are violent and if a teacher is manhandled, regulations forbid them from responding. My own fiancée was held up against a wall by a pupil in an inner London school. There was nothing she could do about it.
At present, the Government seem to believe that this crisis can be staved off by importing supply teachers from South Africa, Australia and New Zealand. However these people are mostly not interested in the long-term health of the British education system but on gaining experience to take back home with them.
People ARE leaving - and in droves. One thing I didn't see before I left England was queues of IT, finance and other professionals queuing up for this apparently cushy number with loads of holiday and fantastic pay.
Ian, Nottingham, England
I cannot believe how many people here keep refering to 'all the holidays' teachers get! one of my close friends is a teacher, and she not only works late almost every evening but also has to work over the weekend on admin and marking and so on. In the summer she spends much of the 'holidays' going over the next years lesson plans. On top of this she gets paid very little in comparison to other professionals for doing an incredibly stressful job. After about 8 years of this, she has finally had enough and is moving on to a new career with less stress and more money, as indeed many good teachers are. These people who think teachers are overpaid and on holiday all the time ought to try it for a while - If they lasted, they'd be first in demanding better conditions!
David, Loughborough University
I would dearly love to be a teacher and have the necessary qualifications to take a PGCE. However, the Government expect me to live on a maximum of £12,000 a year in London while I do so and then £17,000 after that. I earn twice as much as this at the moment typing a few letters and answering the phone all day.
If they really want people to enter the profession then they must ensure that they pay people commensurately. I work for another profession - lawyers - who earn at least five times as much and more (in London). No wonder young graduates are put off!
We have similar problems here in the US. Salary and pay increases should be linked to performance appraisals and production - just like the rest of the working world. If teachers cannot produce results in the classroom, they should be disciplined and, if they continue with poor performance, they should be removed. This is what other employees face. It's not the degree that matters, it's the ability to rate and maintain sustained performance. Do students rate them, how about the parents? As for the 12 week vacation, this is outdated. Children and teachers should be in classrooms year-round. There is no longer a need for summer vacations and education should be continuous for both students and teachers alike. In this regard, I am required to constantly keep abreast of new developments in my field and teachers should be required to do the same.
This goes someway in redressing the issue, although more must be done to raise the profiles of teachers. In India for instance, teachers are looked upon with respect, as they impart knowledge to the next generation of adults. No such luck in the UK I'm afraid. I think this reflects society in general.
Take care in making comparisons with other countries. In France, for example, I believe that teachers have little or no choice where they teach, they're drafted by the State. I can't see our teachers putting up with that!
I am a teacher in Australia. We are having the same problems as teachers in the UK. It is the long hours and the lack of discipline that can be so stressful. As for the long holidays, well I am on holiday now and what am I doing but checking the BBC education website for new ideas for the year to come! I am also surfing the internet for useful aides for the classroom using my own computer and paying for my own internet connection. How many public servants do that and in their hols?
In Argentina we have the same problem. Teachers are usually paid peanuts and are more often than not overworked. I frankly do not understand where the problem lies. I do not know why certain professions are overvalued and some others like teaching are looked down on. Often times when you say you are a teacher here in Argentine, people ask you and what else you do for a living or they just look at you as if you were a loser who is incapable of doing anything else and therefore devoted himself to teaching. The main problem all this brings about is the lack of quality teachers and the second problem is the lack of teachers. Fewer and fewer people are taking up teaching nowadays simply because they cannot make ends meet, and more and more people who do not hold a degree in teaching are practising the profession as private coaches.
Phil W, UK
Spencer UK, is obviously not a parent if he believes that teachers have no responsibility. As a Chairman of Governors of a large primary school, I know exactly how much responsibility teachers have. As for 12 weeks holiday, well much of that can be spent preparing for the next term. I know that at our school many of the staff work from 8am until well into the evening.
Sick to death of listening to teachers moaning about their lot. OK!! Leave!! The same old reasons are given. "In the private sector I could earn much more", we hear teachers cry. Go ahead, join the private sector and believe me you will get the shock of your life. Not a 30 hour week with 13 weeks holiday. Yes I know teachers do some work out of hours but do you think that a financial, IT or commercial professional who earns 25K plus packs their bag at 5:00pm? I don't think so.
Graham Wheatley, UK
Our future as a country depends on our ability to teach our children to a high standard. To achieve this we must attract bright, motivated people to teaching.
The current pay package offered to a prospective teacher is not good enough. A graduate with a good degree can earn several times a teacher's salary within years of leaving university. Bear in mind that most graduates who are in demand for teaching roles bear a heavy financial burden when leaving university. Why would a bright, motivated individual suited to teaching choose a career where they are not in a position to pay off their loans? I for one didn't.
Will the increase be fully funded by the Government?
If not, as a Head I will have cuts in other areas of the budget to worry about.
Rob Elliott, Kosovo
I think for most teachers it's not about the money. I taught for 2 years in the US where the pay was very respectable. However, when a babysitter gets paid more per hour for watching a child than a teacher does an hour for teaching the same child it is kind of a sad state of affairs.
If the Government matched the golden handshakes of top blue chip companies (anything up to £10,000 depending on the firm you join), I would be tempted to change career - I'm only 10 months out of Uni. Otherwise I'd be struggling to pay back loans with a really low paid job. I don't want to be in student debt until I'm 25, that's why I didn't bother considering a teaching career.
Incite me to sign up and I will, otherwise I'll stay in my comfy office, enjoying 20 hours less a week, and secure in the knowledge I will have knocked my debts off 2 years faster than otherwise would have been the case.
Ken Beach, Germany
Russell Long - how much do you get paid for installing Windows 2000? I imagine far more than a teacher with 5 years experience who has a job that causes much more stress than the occasional requirement to swap a CD.
Nick Davis has got his head in the clouds. To suggest that a teacher or any other Government employee should be paid more in the leafy Surrey suburbs where the standard of living is very high than someone doing the same job in a run down inner-city is just beyond me.
James Egert, UK
Russell Long, UK
I don't feel that salary is the correct issue to be addressing. Responsibilities and pupil behaviour is a far more serious problem.
If we take Italy as an example. The salary paid to teachers there is paltry (perhaps 12k if one is very experienced), but they are given more choice in how and what they teach, do not have the admin overhead, and don't have the rapidly worsening behaviour of teenagers to the same extent. As a result, the Italian education system is overwhelmed with applications (they only accept new teaching candidates every 5 years or so, due to the huge response they receive).
There has got to be a limit to how much teachers earn. £17k starting salary is comparable to other graduate positions and is better paid than many skilled jobs. I do appreciate the work they do and the demands they're under but I doubt they're worse than any other profession. I personally think I pay enough tax and any extra tax demanded of me should pay for those worse off e.g. nurses.
I left teaching some years ago. I now earn less than half of what I could if I was teaching. Why don't I go back? The money is a great incentive, but the stresses of the job were too great!
Give teachers the help they need so they don't become seriously stressed; don't overload them with admin; trust them to be able to do their job, recognise the efforts they make instead of continually suggesting education is getting worse, and teacher shortages will diminish. Money will not answer everything.
No mention has been made, yet again of students who are undertaking a 4 year teacher training course with the sole intention of qualifying as a teacher and who receive no financial incentives. These students are in fact paying up to £1,025 per year for tuition fees. I would be interested to hear the reason for this seemingly short sighted and unfair regime.
Teachers pay needs to be assessed on a local basis. The helping out with housing idea needs to be factored directly into the salary. Here in Weybridge, Surrey you need £30,000/year to survive and that just isn't the case in South Wales say. Let schools be as autonomous as small companies and decide for themselves what to pay.
Michael Thomas, UK
I feel that the 3.7% pay rise for teachers will sadly do nothing to address teacher shortages or overall teacher moral. My wife is a teacher with over 10 years experience and I believe that both she and her colleagues are very poorly rewarded for what is a difficult and increasingly stressful job. I am aware of many teachers who are or who would like to leave the profession, both those who are experienced and also younger teachers who can see no long term career prospects only a short time after completing long and expensive training.
I think that teachers might wish to compare their salaries with other public sector workers before claiming particular hardship. For example, A PhD Scientist, despite having around 3 more years of postgraduate education than a teacher will only earn around 17K.
Graduates in the civil service will take home several thousand less than a newly qualified teacher despite, in many cases, the demand for a higher classification of degree than teachers must provide.
Furthermore, through headship, there is scope for promotion wage levels significantly in excess 45K.
Given the generally low quality of degree that the teaching profession attracts, I can think of far more deserving cases for 'inflation busting' wage rises.
The pay award will not solve the biggest problem. Experienced teachers leaving after 5 to 10 years in the profession. It is these teachers who do the bulk of the teaching work, with the experience to raise standards, maintain discipline and provide continuity for students.
If a starting salary of 17k is inadequate for a school teacher, what does this say about a University Lecturer's starting pay, which is also 17k even though the job normally requires a Masters degree and a Doctorate (an additional 4 years of full-time training compared to a school teacher), and it is Universities that train teachers in the first place.
Spencer (UK) couldn't be more wrong about "little exposure to serious responsibility"! I wouldn't accept in loco parentis responsibility for anyone else's brats for that price, especially as the law effectively forbids proper discipline! As for the "12 week holiday", it is peanuts compared to the extra hours spent on government beauocracy and marking coursework. Moreover as a professional I would expect enough to at least pay for a mortgage - you try that on in south east England!
To "Spencer, England" - you've just unwittingly hit the nail on the head. Many teachers are in fact doing just what you suggested; seeking other professions because they aren't satisfied with the pay. And this is why we have such a shortage now.
Okay so they get 12 weeks holiday. However, most teachers that I know are dedicated enough to take work home with them, therefore working very long hours without many members of the public appreciating or respecting this fact. Conversely, in the much better paid private sector where I work, most people are very good at forgetting work completely as soon as they leave the office.
I think that the pay-rise is relatively poor when compared to the politicians who award themselves huge rises even when the country and the teachers in question are arguably suffering because of them.
As an excellent primary school teacher of 31 years experience, I was never unhappy about my salary.
What drove me out 2 years ago with a nervous breakdown was my 70 hour week working 7am-6pm in the school building with a quick snack at lunchtime, working in the evenings when exhausted from the day and the obligatory after school activity one had to offer, meeting or training session, then going in at weekends to mark homework, have planning meetings or renew wall displays and generally having to do without any sort of life beyond teaching.
Anyone who thinks teaching is a doddle should spend a month, day and night with a primary teacher, then speak with an informed opinion.
If people think teaching pay should be
higher then those who actually have children
attending schools should be taxed more to
provide the increase. Why should I have to
pay for educating the kids you chose to have?
Married to a teacher, it appears to me that the most important issue for teachers is the pressure associated with the job. It is possible that increased pay to attract more graduates into the profession would alleviate some of the current staffing problems. However, I think that the number of teachers leaving the industry is a far bigger problem. A longer term solution would surely be to restructure the job to remove some of the administrative overhead currently endured by teachers and thereby allow more of them to remain in the industry. In this way, we can retain the expertise that these professionals have built up through the years, which can in turn be passed on to their newer colleagues.
An experienced teacher - say 5 years - should be in the upper quartile of earnings, not just the average UK salary. Move some of the cost of the DfEE into teachers' salaries. That would also reduce political interference.
The pay rise is great if it actually happens. However my sister is a teacher in the state sector. She has not yet received last year's pay rise and only half of the year before. This government can announce all the pay increases it pleases but if they don't provide the local education authorities with the funds to meet them, then press releases are meaningless. My sister, who has degrees in Maths and Chemistry will be leaving teaching at the end of the summer term. Well done Mr Blair. Great result.
Richard G, UK
As a mother and a taxpayer, I would be prepared to pay good teachers more, but they should be happy to submit to rigorous performance appraisals like the rest of us in work. For good performers and those who are dedicated, we should be paying substantially more to attract and retain the right talent and commitment. We should also have the guts to get rid of the poor performers.
Teachers should be
accorded the same
respect as other professionals
such as Doctors, Lawyers,
solicitors etc. They are not
and the pay scale reflects this.
What do we need more of...
Lawyers and litigation or
Teachers and Education?
Children are our most
precious resource: recognition and
pay for those who work with
them should be much higher.
Reg Pither, England
This paltry award is not all bad news in the medium term. As the teacher shortage crisis becomes more acute as it will now - eventually government will have no option but to meet a much greater increase to avoid the catastrophe which will soon impact.
Why not move teachers' pay onto a similar footing to the rest of the professional workforce. If I don't perform well in my job I don't get a pay rise or may even lose my job. Poor teachers are just left to plod on. If, however, I do well I will get a pay rise and possibly a bonus. Why not introduce a similar scheme for teachers? This would encourage those who can teach and help weed out the indifferent teachers who seem unable to motivate or even control their pupils.
The real issue is not pay, it is conditions. No-one seems to mention that a full teachers workload means around 60 hours a week, coping with constant changes in curricula, endless report writing and resulting in real stress. Even a 50% pay increase still wouldn't retain staff for the long term.
Clive Mitchell, UK
Well, if the 3.7% can be used as an aggregate, and not an across the board give-away, perhaps it would be adequate. In other words, some teachers would get nothing and others might get 20%. You'll never get the best and the brightest if everyone is treated the same ... that's called socialism, and it is been thoroughly discredited!
Heather Slater, UK
Teachers in England and Wales should be happy with the 3.7%. As long as we can give Scottish teachers 21%, which is paid for by the English taxpayer, then there's no problem as long as the Scots can have devolution from us because they detest the English but then get us to pay for everything like sops. Well done Mr Blair.
As someone who has spent 35 years in secondary teaching both in the US and England I must say that I find the present salary structure for teachers in the UK to be appalling. The salary scale in the district where I am employed is roughly twice that of this UK agreement and we still have difficulty attracting great teachers.
02 Feb 01 | Education
Teachers to get 3.7% pay rise
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