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The music that plays over the final flashback on the SE is in fact a mix of TWO songs from the soundtrack: The beginning with them running in the field re-uses the opening bars of "I figli morti" (track #5, disc 1) but the song is then cross-faded to a rather echoey mix of "giu la testa" (track #13, disc 2) that had only appeared on compilation albums before the release of the SE! If this were the correct mix this would be the only time a song is cross-faded into another in a Leone film!
"McFilms are commodities and, as such, must be QA'd according to industry standards."
"One banana, two banana, three banana, four...."
Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Quote from: drinkanddestroy on July 08, 2012, 03:13:37 PM
When we see there how close Mallory and Nolan are: Nolan is kissing his girl, and Mallory is smiling, indicating that he is basically at peace with it, they both love the same girl but they are  happy with the situation, that's how close they are -- that serves to make Mallory's murder of Nolan even more poignant. Nolan ratted out Mallory after being tortured,  but now Mallory pulls a rifle and kills the soldiers..... so they could all be safe and free....but no, he blows away Nolan, because he won't forgive him for betraying him. Rather than understanding that his friend only betrayed him after being tortured, Mallory kills him.
The scene may be even more nuanced than that. Note that Nolan doesn't try to get away or even flinch when Mallory takes a bead on him. In fact, there is a moment when the two men seem to exchange a look, as if a kind of silent communication is going on between them. Nolan of course feels bad that he has betrayed his friend and the cause. People sometimes think they can withstand torture if they are committed enough, but, as Viellga points out, everyone has their breaking point. But after being broken one's sense of guilt must be devastating. We have seen that Nolan was a firebrand for the rebellion--he was passing out leaflets in the pub earlier--so his sense of guilt must have been acute, and, psychologically speaking, he may have felt he deserved to be severely punished. I've always interpreted the look Nolan gives Mallory to be a request for execution.
The fact that Mallory acceded to the request in no way lets Mallory off the hook. In later years, Mallory realizes he should not have killed his friend, even though his friend may have asked for it. Later, in what is essentially a do-over, when he has the opportunity to "judge" Viellga, Mallory recuses himself, allowing Viellga to pass sentence on himself. This is grace for Viellga, and, apparently, for Mallory as well.
"McFilms are commodities and, as such, must be QA'd according to industry standards."
Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Quote from: drinkanddestroy on July 07, 2012, 07:36:31 PM
However, I believe you are mistaken about Frayling saying the SE mix is incorrect in the commentary. I just watched the commentary a couple of nights ago, I don't believe that Frayling says a word about SE audio mix being correct, nor does he even mention that there is a discrepancy between various audio versions.
But I do not believe that Frayling's commentary ever addresses the musical discrepancies between the various versions of the final flashback(except when he mentions that the cussing was initially taken out and later put back in), nor does he even address the issue of the music's stopping and starting again.
While you're right about Frayling never saying anything about there being more than one sound mix for the flashback scene, one thing he said makes it seem that he thinks this is the way the soundtrack is supposed to be:
...and the Sean theme by Morricone is about to go down to make way for another theme for the final part of the flashback.
"One banana, two banana, three banana, four...."
Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Looking at (and listening to) to two clips again, I notice that what we're calling the OV has gunfire on the soundtrack that begins before the flashback and continues to be heard during the beginning of the flashback until it fades out. Then, at the end of the flashback, the gunfire returns, fading up on the soundtrack and continuing as the action flash-forwards back to the present. This doesn't happen on the SE soundtrack: the sounds of gunfire do not intrude onto either portions of the flashback. It's as if the music was plopped down onto the soundtrack without any thought given to sound effects.
"McFilms are commodities and, as such, must be QA'd according to industry standards."
trust a man who wears both a belt and suspenders?
« #64 : July 08, 2012, 07:06:25 PM »
Thanks to everyone who has contributed to the detective work here!
Here are a few suggestions I have for how we may continue:
I'm wondering if anyone here has contact info with anyone who may be "in the know" on these matters:
Maybe some of you guys who work for Cinema Retro, didn't they once interview Giancarlo Santi (who was originally supposed to direct this movie)? Or if does anyone have contact info for Frayling?
If Glenn Erickson's contact info is available, maybe someone should just contact him? (I don't agree with all of his opinions on this movie as I've detailed extendively here http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=5936.msg157961#msg157961 but as a last resort) perhaps you should email him that YouTube clip with the comparisons, and this discussion thread, and see if he is even aware of any other versions? I can see how Erickson would use the music to interpret the scene if they were unaware of any other versions of the music; but maybe he'd reconsider if he was aware of a different version of the music? Even if he doesn't know, maybe he'll have contact info for some studio exec or critic who knows this stuff?
I have email addresses  for the Leone children, a movie critic who gave them to me said they are publicly-listed addresses for Andrea Leone Productions.) (They never responded to the one question I emailed them about OUATIA; I don't know if they never respond to that email address, or if maybe they just didn't answer mine cuz they were busy right before Cannes, or maybe cuz I wrote it in English and not Italian, Who knows. But if someone is interested in emailing them in Italian and asking them this question about the DYS music, send me a PM and I will give you their addresses; it's a very long shot that they'll respond but I guess that when you're doing detective work, it's like playing the lottery:, you gotta take whatever chances you can, and hope that at least one ends up being successful?
As I understand it, this movie was released in its full length in Italy, but other than that Italian release, it was never released in its full length until the various special edition restorations were released in the early 2000's. Is that correct? If so, we can probably assume that that original-release Italian print has the correct music. Is that version available anywhere? is there an Italian dvd that has the full flashback? If do, can we assume that that dvd is the original print?
« : July 09, 2012, 05:48:07 PM drinkanddestroy »
There are three types of people in the world, my friend: those who can add, and those who can't.
Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
« #65 : July 09, 2012, 07:15:08 AM »
Quote from: drinkanddestroy on July 08, 2012, 07:06:25 PM
As I understand it, this movie was released in its full length in Italy, but other than that Italian release, it was never released in its full length until the various special edition restorations were released in the early 2000's. Is that correct? If so, we can probably assume that that original-release Italian print has the correct music. Is that version available anywhere? is there an Italian dvd that has the full flashback? If do, can we assume that that dvd is the original print?
Information about whether or not the Italian release contained the full flashback scene seems a little sketchy: Some sources claim it did, others claim that it didn't, and some claim it was part of the premiere version and then subsequently removed, I really have no idea which one is true. What I do know is that at least the last two DVD editions (from CVC and Mondo) released in Italy (not sure if there were any released before these) do contain the final flashback and I think it's reasonable to assume that they contain the original soundtrack.
Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
« #66 : July 09, 2012, 07:56:58 AM »
Quote from: stanton on July 08, 2012, 06:57:55 AM
Did he say anything anywhere about this scene?
See Leone's quote on p.330 of Frayling and the references there (one being Simsolo's interviews):
"This wasn't just libertarianism and free love; there was also a symbolic dimension. The woman represented the revolution everyone wanted to embrace"
Basically, by changing the music, they have really messed up the point of the scene! What a huge error! Quite possibly even bigger than screwing up the closing music of OUATITW.
trust a man who wears both a belt and suspenders?
Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
« #67 : July 09, 2012, 10:27:24 AM »
Quote from: The clint on July 09, 2012, 07:15:08 AM
Information about whether or not the Italian release contained the full flashback scene seems a little sketchy: Some sources claim it did, others claim that it didn't, and some claim it was part of the premiere version and then subsequently removed, I really have no idea which one is true. What I do know is that at least the last two DVD editions (from CVC and Mondo) released in Italy (not sure if there were any released before these) do contain the final flashback and I think it's reasonable to assume that they contain the original soundtrack.
-- According to the bonus features on the SE (I forgot if it was John Jerk's piece or Glenn Erickson's piece) the only version that played the full movie, including the full final flashback (before it was restored for the SE in recent years), was the Italian premiere.
-- Which music plays on the Mondo and CVC versions?
-- the SE has some other audio discrepancies, which are included in the clips I linked to in the first post in this thread. Maybe if we can know for certain which is the correct version of the audio in the other video clips, we can assume that the same version gets it correct in the final flashback's audio as well.
-- Finally, since UNCKNOWN was the one who said that the SE's audio is correct, I'd like to hear if he has a response to THE CLINT's arguments. We really need to get to the bottom of this.
Does anyone have Erickson's email address? Or is anyone on DVD Beaver's listserve? I don't think Beaver is an expert on the various audio versions, but ome of the members of his listserve definitely are.
« : July 09, 2012, 08:30:34 PM drinkanddestroy »
There are three types of people in the world, my friend: those who can add, and those who can't.
This post gets Agnew's stamp of approval!
Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
« #68 : July 09, 2012, 10:31:33 AM »
I've already contacted Mr. Erickson regarding your query. Would you like me to pass along your nickname as well?
Saturday nights with Groggy
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Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
« #69 : July 09, 2012, 04:38:28 PM »
Received a nice reply from Mr. Erickson. I'll reproduce the relevant sections.
I have an Italian copy of the movie and should get it out to hear what happens to the music in the final flashback -- but I'm working long hours at the moment and having trouble getting my reviews out.
I've seen convincing evidence that shows that the sound company hired by MGM laid down the music tracks differently than they were on the Italian original. The engineers may have gotten 'creative' to solve problems of missing material or they may have been supplied with a master with altered tracks.
Deciding what a correct version is, is difficult. The SE is not Leone's export version. I'm told that that copy had a lot more profanity that's been relooped. Leone himself chopped the film down several times, at one point settling on a finish with NO flashback at all. Leone did it, so some people would say that the flashback does not belong at all.
If I get a chance I'll put up the old Italian copy ... I have to find it first.
Hopefully he'll be able to follow-up soon. I excised some more general comments on the film to keep from drifting off-topic.
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easy come easy go
Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
« #70 : July 09, 2012, 04:45:36 PM »
"When you feel that rope tighten on your neck you can feel the devil bite your ass"!
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Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
« #71 : July 09, 2012, 05:03:15 PM »
Quote from: Groggy on July 09, 2012, 10:31:33 AM
I've already contacted Mr. Erickson regarding your query. Would you like me to pass along your nickname as well?
Thanks for contacting him about that issue. (And yes, you can feel free to pass along my nicknameS -- but include my other query about Leone's supposed habit of appropriating successful movies by other directors!)
Did it seem that Erickson was aware about the discrepancy in the final flashback music, or was your email the first he'd heard of it? The fact that he mentions the stop-start music as proof of tension between Mallory and Nolan -- while making no mention of the existence of the other version of the music, even though his piece was about "sorting out the versions," -- led me to believe that he was unaware of the existence of the other version, but I'd be interested to know for sure.
Anyway, I can't wait to hear what he says about the final music, and its implication, not least because Erickson has an entire theory about the movie, discussed in that "Sorting Out the Versions" piece, much of which would fall apart if it turns out that he had the wrong music all along.
And most importantly, alerting him to this issue (if he was unaware of it until now) would be very important because if he was involved with the SE of DYS, I guess there is a reasonable chance that he will be involved with any future restorations/releases, including a blu ray. So hopefully the blu ray (or a future dvd restoration) will finally get the audio right. No matter what the correct version of the final flashback music is, so much of the rest of the audio of that dvd is screwed up [I recall Beaver saying something like it's the worst audio he's ever come across], and I'd hope that someone who would be involved in future restorations would be aware of all this so that we will finally one day get a proper version of this movie, with all the scenes and the proper audio.
So thanks for contacting him; I can't wait to find out the outcome of all this!
« : July 09, 2012, 05:18:12 PM drinkanddestroy »
There are three types of people in the world, my friend: those who can add, and those who can't.
Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
« #72 : July 09, 2012, 06:22:38 PM »
Quote from: drinkanddestroy on July 09, 2012, 10:27:24 AM
-- Which music plays on the Mondo and CVC versions?
-- the SE has some other audio discrepancies, which are included in the clips I linked to in the first post in this thread. Maybe if we can know for certain which is the correct version of the audio in the other video clips, we can assume that the same version gets it correct in the final flashback's audio as well.
The first version in the youtube video is from the CVC/Mondo version, the second is from the MGM SE. The other video containing various minor (but still important!) audio discrepancies features the 2003 MGM DVD's mono track played first, and then the erroneous SE track (that censors or alters some dialogue, and makes changes to small music cues throughout). The 2003 DVD's mono track agrees, in all instances, with the CVC/Mondo DVDs and I assume it's the most faithful English language version that's available, albeit sounding rather muffled.
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Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
« #73 : July 09, 2012, 06:49:44 PM »
Erickson did take issue with your assertion that a revolutionary wouldn't betray another revolutionary. His theory, or belief in it anyway, is not contingent upon the music cue. He made a comment about problems with restoring Techniscope but nothing about sound quality.
Anyway, I'll be sure to pass along any further communications. His e-mail address is listed on his homepage so feel free to contact him yourself!
« : July 09, 2012, 07:13:02 PM Groggy »
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Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
« #74 : July 09, 2012, 08:29:12 PM »
Quote from: Groggy on July 09, 2012, 06:49:44 PM
Erickson did take issue with your assertion that a revolutionary wouldn't betray another revolutionary. His theory, or belief in it anyway, is not contingent upon the music cue. He made a comment about problems with restoring Techniscope but nothing about sound quality.
Anyway, I'll be sure to pass along any further communications. His e-mail address is listed on his homepage so feel free to contact him yourself!
The reason I think that Mallory wouldn't betray Nolan is not because of dedication to the revolution; personal reasons can always get in the way of any "greater good." Rather, it's for pragmatic reasons: Mallory is a revolutionary himself!! I mean, can you imagine eg. a thief ratting out his partner to the cops? Wtf would he expect his partner to do, other than telling those same cops, "well that guy who just ratted me out, he is a revolutionary too!" Mallory ratting out Nolan is just the silliest thing I ever heard of! So what happens, Mallory rats out Nolan as being a revolutionary, and then Nolan in turn says "you know Mallory is a revolutionary too!" And then the soldiers come to the pub, and ask Nolan, "Is it him?" Wtf is that all about? If Mallory had just ratted out Nolan (after which Nolan was tortured), wtf do the soldiers mean when they ask Nolan, about Mallory, "is it him?" they should already be familiar with Mallory for having ratted Nolan out in the first place!
No, it's very obvious that what had happened was that there had been some attack, probably an explosion with dynamite, and the soldiers  knew that Nolan was aware of the identity of the perpetrator, so they tortured Nolan into revealing his identity: "is it him?" ie. "was it Mallory who committed the attack?"
Yes, there is a lot of issues regarding plot/motivations in DYS that reasonable people can disagree over (especially until we know the correct musical cue for the final flashback!) But IMO this assertion that Mallory is the one who initially ratted out Nolan is just not believable on any level. I would love to hear how Erickson explains the question, "is it him?" asked by the soldiers, if they should already be familiar with him for having delivered Nolan into their hands in the first place.
And finally, as discussed previously, Erickson admits that according to his theory, Mallory's final smile is ambiguous. Well, if the Original Version's music is correct, wouldn't that explain all, including the final smile ?, ie. Mallory was at peace with the love triangle, as shown with the continuous music and his final smile, thus displaying the closeness of their friendship, and therefore how terrible Nolan's betrayal was, and/or how terrible Mallory's act of vengeance was. (Furthermore, Mallory being at peace with Nolan and the love triangle is more consistent with saying that Mallory's dreams of Ireland are a fantasy about the good old days, rather than if there was really tension all along between Mallory and Nolan).
Either way, whether Erickson is correct or I am, we all agree that there is some act of betrayal/vengeance that is haunting Mallory, and for which he atones for at the end by refusing to "judge" Dr. Villega. But the question is whether it is that evil act that is haiunting Mallory was the act of shooting his close friend who had been tortured; or whether it was the act of of initially ratting out Nolan to the police, which IMO raises all these questions/ambiguities that i've detailed.
[p.s. the reason I use the last names, Mallory and Nolan ,to refer to the characters is to avoid the whole issue of Sean vs. John; Erickson is convinced that Mallory is John and Nolan is Sean, so I figure that using last names avoids that whole issue  ]
There are three types of people in the world, my friend: those who can add, and those who can't.
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