er Again it's difficult to say, the information has been leaking out from the talks, er it doesn't look as though a pay formula is being included but Roger Pulne, er even on the onset of this dispute guaranteed the members er that any deal that was struck with management would include a pay formula and er if the deal doesn't come out with a pay formula after the ballot as I say, I think people are going to be very disappointed and let-down by our union negotiators.