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Is Europe's traditionally secular liberalism threatened? 
The islamic religion is politically incompatible with a modern secular state.

Some fundamentalist christian religions are also incompatible with a modern secular state.

Those who consider their religion to be their government and their government to be their religion, will always hold a "government of men" in contempt.

And will attempt by sheer weight of numbers and the voting process to be the dominate worldview in whatever society they live.

Dominionism is the new game in town. It is the same as the old game played in the crusades, but this one will primarily use the voting processes of democratic societies.

The economic model of more production at cheaper prices has led in part to this problem. A free market economy requires cheap labor in order to be competitive.

The US sources its cheap labor predominately from South America. The people are predominately christian (catholic). Europe and the UK sources its cheap labour predominately from islamic countries who are, obviously muslim.

It stands to reason that the effects of these economic politices will be noticed firstly in Europe and the UK, which is exactly what is happening.

10/29/2006 5:37 PM 
Beepbeep - You have brought up several good points in comparing islam and xianity, bringing into it economic and labor factors. So, the "effects" are the results of our own doing?

10/29/2006 6:01 PM Drunken Tune said...

Islam terrifies me, perhaps more than Christianity.

Many Christian groups have had their power taken away by the secular state, and are slowly dying. They’re in their [hopefully] final twitches of intolerance and ignorance; Islam today has taken a vice-like grip on a culture that was vastly superior to Europe, preserving ancient Roman and Greek works, giving us the 0 place marker, advancing in astronomy and botany while the Europians were still sniffing their asses. Yet, all went into a decline.

Today, Islam spreads like a virus. The Middle East and Persia have to go through Enlightenment: It is still stuck in the 14th century. Perhaps, since time is relative, they're moving backwards?

10/29/2006 9:59 PM 
So would Islamic groups, if Europe had played its cards right. Religious fundamentalism doesn't rise out of nowhere. Religious fundamentalists always exist, but their ability to attract followers is proportional to potential converts' sense of alienation and disillusionment. The two Western countries where Muslims are least prone to Islamism, the US and Canada, are also the two where they're discriminated against the least.

10/29/2006 11:05 PM 
RE stardust:

Certainly I think that an economic model which promotes the concept that there must be an increase in product and rapid dispensibility of said consumer product, in order to "stay afloat" economically; can only really work if said resources are infinite.

Countries with a low birth rate require people to generate and produce wealth. If said countries had a slightly different economic model, for example one based in sustainibility, instead of unlimited increase, then the necessity for an increase in population is not as pertinent to economic growth.

I certainly dont have all the answers, (maybe I don't have any of them), but like the concept of unlimited growth of industry and business is touted as a necessity, so too the concept of increased population growth also becomes a necessity.

Economic growth appears to be dependent upon population growth.

10/29/2006 11:09 PM 
We should remember our numbers are higher and the more the muslims push it, the more the atheists group together.

The fight hasn't started yet but we are close.

10/29/2006 11:10 PM Deacon Barry said...

It's the other way around. It's Islam which is threatened by secular liberalism. British muslims have no insulation from the common British culture expressed in the media. The culture assimilates all other creeds and cultures and makes the British - and that's a good thing. Even televangelism imported from the USA has taken on a British flavour. What is important, is to be accepting of muslims and not to reject them because of the crimes of others.

10/30/2006 10:57 AM 
Deacon - But this is not what I am hearing from my penfriends I write back and forth to in the UK and other European countries. For one thing, they are getting fed up with the growing evangelical xianity, and also muslims wanting special allowances to accomodate their religion in the public schools and other places.

It seems as though many people are far less tolerant of fundamentalist xians (and atheists are becoming less tolerant of even moderate xians) than they are of muslims...saying that we must respect their "culture" when in fact we are talking about a religion and the beliefs of that religion that it should win the world for Allah. I can respect muslims as people, but as an atheist, I cannot respect their medieval religion and them expecting to get special treatment for their religious superstitious practices.

Here in Illinois,for example, there is an ongoing dispute now between muslims who want men and boys to be banned from girl's sporting events when their girls play against public school girls at the public school facilities. It is very important to many American fathers to be there for their daughter's games. The muslim groups so far have not been "accomodated" and are crying oppression and discrimination against their "culture", which is bullshit.

Another example...In America, people cannot go into a bank or public building wearing a face mask (clearly for security reasons), yet muslims expect to be allowed to wear their veils and again, if not allowed to do so, cry discrimination.

While some people to focus on Islam as a "culture", in reality it is a religion. And one that believes their gawd wants them to have dominion over the earth. Should we just say that fundamentalist xians are just of a "hillbilly culture" and have more tolerance and understanding of them? I think that would be a grave mistake to overlook the power of religious control.

10/30/2006 12:04 PM 
I just want to add that I agree that accepting muslims and not to reject them because of the crimes of others is important, but as with xians, I also think it is important to note that they are free to worship any way they choose in western culture...as long as those beliefs are not forced upon others and public institutions. (Unfortunately this is not what the Abrahamic religions teach...they are "compelled" by their ancient books to "covert" people to the "true gawd".

10/30/2006 12:08 PM 
This video is as disturbing as the ones of Jeebus Brainwashing camp!

This little girl is being persistently prodded to produce what the woman wants her to say. Keep in mind, she is only three years old. 3 years old Muslim girl Iqra TV Saudi Arabia television

10/30/2006 12:40 PM 
The current stage of the conflict between two differing yet similar fantasies is not without its funny side.

It's kind of like people arguing that their Santa is the right one. Unfortunately both sides are so blind and fanatical that the conflict could bring us all undone.

On The Peoples Voice an article by Mark Glenn called The Men In Black is worth reading but only if you're brave! Cheers!

10/30/2006 4:24 PM Great Minds Quotes Stardust's other blogs Friends of mine Astronomy websites Science Blogs and websites Favorite Atheist, Agnostic, Secular Humanist Blogs Daily Gods powered by Funny stuff Culinary Iconography