GOC Ploting.
<h1 id="title">Elliquiy Role Playing Forums</h1>
		<h2 id="linktree">Play-By-Post: Extreme =&gt; Extreme Small Groups =&gt; Topic started by: Angzyn on 19-10-2010, 22:51:09</h2>
		<dl id="posts">
			<dt class="postheader">
				Title: <strong>GOC Ploting.</strong><br>
				Post by: <strong>Angzyn</strong> on <strong>19-10-2010, 22:51:09</strong>
			</dt>
			<dd class="postbody">
				Okay this place is more or less what the Subject line says....<br><br>For people that are already approved (you know who you are) to plot out and work on the main story line.This is not for OOC or chit chat people.<br><br>I want inputs on the main plot and ideas to build on and make it better.
			</dd>
			<dt class="postheader">
				Title: <strong>Re: GOC Ploting.</strong><br>
				Post by: <strong>Haibane</strong> on <strong>20-10-2010, 00:36:58</strong>
			</dt>
			<dd class="postbody">
				Reasons why I think the first game failed:<br><br>1) Too many characters.<br>2) Two disparate groups that turned out to have too little in common. It was effectively going to be two stories.<br>3) 'New' characters, not existing ones.<br>4) 'Controlling' characters were in place. This rarely works.<br>5) Game setting was a 'closed space' and not an 'open space'.<br>6) No 'routine'.<br><br>I'll talk about each point in turn.<br><br>1) I do recommend you limit a group game to a dozen characters at most, better still try and make the storyline work with about 8 characters. Doubling up on more chars per player may seem like a good idea but if a player drops out it causes twice the disruption or if they are busy it causes twice the delays... or if their time is limited, one char hardly gets used and the player whose character plot line linked with theirs is stuffed. To put it bluntly the more people you have the more sh*t happens.<br><br>Loading up a new game with lots of characters does not make it a busy or good game, until it gains momentum and direction it only makes a bigger pile to come crashing down.<br><br>2) We had two distinct groups in the first game; 'family and slaves' and 'gladiators'. On page 1 or page 2 family members started going off with the slave girls for sex scenes. I am particularly uncomfortable with having to get shagging by post #3, it means there's no depth to the game and no opportunity to develop the character first or do anything. We had the lady of the house start doing something sexy/private with a second female slave... so this left the male slaves with absolutely nothing to do. In my experience male slaves do not work well as player characters unless the females who own them interact with them, or they are gay and gay male owners interact with them. Male slaves tend to get forgotten otherwise. Please bear this in mind and if you have them, ensure there are players with owner characters committed to having some time with them, or give them a compelling storyline. If you have slaves have <em>only</em> those slaves. There was little enough for the slaves to be doing without the family saying things like "I called over a slave and demanded my toga," conjuring up an NPC slave as and when needed. You have slave characters there. Use them. If you are going to conjure up NPC slaves then you don't need character slaves, so scrap them and find another angle for the family structure (all guest characters?).<br><br>With the female slaves all being closely taken or attending on the family there was pretty much zero scope for the gladiator characters to interact with them (politely or rudely - either way it looked like it had little chance of happening).<br><br>3) 'New' characters arrive at the game's setting then stand around and get bored. There is nothing for them to do, they must wait to be processed or taught, or given quarters or something, but alone they are plotless and useless. Especially in 'school' settings like this one. I find that 'new' characters rarely work well, a game would have more depth if all the gladiators had been at the school six months already, minimum. Make them all experienced, give them back stories and rivalries and established relations with each other or with the slaves or owners (sexual or otherwise). Bring them to life and give them a purpose and a plot line to follow when nothing else is going on. Make then trusted instead of violent and rebellious. The angst and rebellion can come later, throwing it in on post #4 rarely works since the team of players hasn't yet worked out the protocols to manage such a situation.<br><br>A gladiator/slave who walks into a new school and whose first act is to attack their new owners will be dead within 15 minutes or sold within half a day. Such an act in real terms <em>would</em> kill that character dead as regards that story. No owner would put up with crap like that. So please do things that are at least sensible and believable in the context of the game you're playing and don't assume that just because this is a freeform RP you can get away with that sort of unrealistic behaviour because you know its an RP and your char can't be killed. I am the sort of GM who would stick a sword straight through such a character killing them instantly then explain to the player why I did that and tell them to go make a new char up.<br><br>4) 'Controlling' characters rarely work well in forum RPs because the game slows down to their pace of posting. The gladiator trainer and the master (and to a lesser extent the mistress) of the house were the controlling characters in this case. Much of the action hinges on their posts and their decisions and without them the bulk of the characters (lacking pre-planned back story and sub-plots) had nothing to do. It is the same with other 'controlled' settings like schools, academies and military units - a few leader characters dictate the pace of the game. I have been in far too many school type settings where because the teacher players were slow posters everything collapsed, so in my latest game designs I simply don't have any 'controlling' characters and the game is played from the perspective of the students only or I NPC the teachers and churn out several posts a day because I can commit like that.<br><br>5) The game setting was not one that allowed the characters of players who dropped out to realistically depart and new characters to easily enter, since both the 'family/slave unit' and the 'gladiator school' unit were closed environments.<br><br>6) I spent ages doing a great deal of careful work in setting out a meal. I put my soul into that post. And not one single family member went to breakfast. I have to be honest and say that failure was a kick in the guts to my enthusiasm for the game. If people make such effort please show appreciation for it by referring to it... routine. I assumed the first thing the family would do is gather for breakfast. Don't people do that at the start of the day in Roman times? But everyone went off to do various scenes and skipped breakfast.<br><br>Routine. Establish a daily routine for the family unit so players know what they need to do and where they should most usefully be employed. I'm not saying we need a script and a director saying "Cut - now go to the baths!" but having a clue as to what characters ought to be doing in certain scenes would help.<br><br>What do I suggest?<br><br>1) Game to have at max 10 characters. Not players, characters. More can be added if it is successful. Even if it fails you have only annoyed 10 people, not 15 or more.<br><br>2) Balance the character mix. If you accept more characters make sure they have a plot line in place and at least 1 potential sexual partner in the setting already. Sure the game may not all be about sex, but players here will want an opportunity to have it. Having 3 slave girls and 1 daughter but then 2 or 3 male family members and something like 6 male gladiators and 2 male slaves is not a balanced mix. There can be a slight imbalance but nothing bigger. If you have male slaves, give them a purpose or give them a love interest.<br><br>3) No new arrivals. Have every character already there in an established setting. Its more work but being a noob is the lazy option. Stretch yourself. Think up a back story and a plot line. Make an effort. It will make a game that will last more than 2 pages, I promise.<br><br>4) Focus the game on only 1 main group. We could focus on family life and Roman politics and trade and backstabbing and have the slaves present and play a game like that. Or have a game purely about a gladiator school where there are slave girls around to serve the school (and not a family). I would pick one or the other but the two do not work well together in my view, unless the role of the unmarried daughter is key to the concept in which case a 1-on-1 game might work best for that with the two writers taking a number of key roles (daughter/slave girl and father/gladiator). I do not think the game design of a gladiator school <em>and</em> a family messed up with its own angst will work. It'd make great TV but it doesn't make great forum RP material.<br><br>5) Do not have controlling characters. Have a gladiator school but with an NPC trainer that anyone can pick up and say a few lines for, have a family but with the master absent. I'm certain it will make a better game.<br><br>6) Have an open setting. If a player drops out make it technically believable in the game world for someone new to drop in seamlessly. A new slave player can come in from running an errand across the city. Don't have key vital characters like sons in the family who may kill the game if their player leaves but instead have guests who arrive at the door or get out of bed late.<br><br>7) Establish a routine, a basic framework or rough timetable. This way, lacking an original plot idea of their own all the players with nothing to do can actually post about doing something logical. Like eating that beautiful breakfast.<br><br>EDIT: Um, by the way... apart from the example of a new gladiator walking in and starting a fight I was not specifically saying anyone played badly, slowly or wrongly in the previous game. By mentioning the trainer or master as slowing the game down I do not mean it happened in this particular case but I have know in to happen many times before. I ran seriously out of time to pay the attention needed to this game but my interest had become badly dented early on as some comments above refer to, however please do understand that I'm not having a go at anyone specifically. Towards the last few posts of the previous game I'd given up reading them so I do not know what went on, but listed above are what I consider generic design issues with forum RPs that can become weaknesses&nbsp; and my suggestions to avoid them.<br><br>Sorry if I offended anyone.
			</dd>
			<dt class="postheader">
				Title: <strong>Re: GOC Ploting.</strong><br>
				Post by: <strong>Angzyn</strong> on <strong>20-10-2010, 01:55:27</strong>
			</dt>
			<dd class="postbody">
				<div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=86280.msg3794743#msg3794743">Quote from: Haibane on 20-10-2010, 00:36:58</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">1) Game to have at max 10 characters. Not players, characters. More can be added if it is successful. Even if it fails you have only annoyed 10 people, not 15 or more.<br><br>2) Balance the character mix. If you accept more characters make sure they have a plot line in place and at least 1 potential sexual partner in the setting already. Sure the game may not all be about sex, but players here will want an opportunity to have it. Having 3 slave girls and 1 daughter but then 2 or 3 male family members and something like 6 male gladiators and 2 male slaves is not a balanced mix. There can be a slight imbalance but nothing bigger. If you have male slaves, give them a purpose or give them a love interest.<br><br>3) No new arrivals. Have every character already there in an established setting. Its more work but being a noob is the lazy option. Stretch yourself. Think up a back story and a plot line. Make an effort. It will make a game that will last more than 2 pages, I promise.<br><br>4) Focus the game on only 1 main group. We could focus on family life and Roman politics and trade and backstabbing and have the slaves present and play a game like that. Or have a game purely about a gladiator school where there are slave girls around to serve the school (and not a family). I would pick one or the other but the two do not work well together in my view, unless the role of the unmarried daughter is key to the concept in which case a 1-on-1 game might work best for that with the two writers taking a number of key roles (daughter/slave girl and father/gladiator). I do not think the game design of a gladiator school <em>and</em> a family messed up with its own angst will work. It'd make great TV but it doesn't make great forum RP material.<br><br>5) Do not have controlling characters. Have a gladiator school but with an NPC trainer that anyone can pick up and say a few lines for, have a family but with the master absent. I'm certain it will make a better game.<br><br>6) Have an open setting. If a player drops out make it technically believable in the game world for someone new to drop in seamlessly. A new slave player can come in from running an errand across the city. Don't have key vital characters like sons in the family who may kill the game if their player leaves but instead have guests who arrive at the door or get out of bed late.<br><br>7) Establish a routine, a basic framework or rough timetable. This way, lacking an original plot idea of their own all the players with nothing to do can actually post about doing something logical. Like eating that beautiful breakfast.<br><br>EDIT: Um, by the way... apart from the example of a new gladiator walking in and starting a fight I was not specifically saying anyone played badly, slowly or wrongly in the previous game. By mentioning the trainer or master as slowing the game down I do not mean it happened in this particular case but I have know in to happen many times before. I ran seriously out of time to pay the attention needed to this game but my interest had become badly dented early on as some comments above refer to, however please do understand that I'm not having a go at anyone specifically. Towards the last few posts of the previous game I'd given up reading them so I do not know what went on, but listed above are what I consider generic design issues with forum RPs that can become weaknesses&nbsp; and my suggestions to avoid them.<br><br>Sorry if I offended anyone.<br></blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div><br>1) Done <br>2) Done *The story will be limited to slaves, Gladiators and the Wife/Niece.* <br>3) Working on<br>4) Removed the Husband, Sons. But will leave the trainer if this becomes a problem I will remove him from play as well. <br>5) Working on and Done with killer characters. <br>6) Still working on the plot but Characters are encouraged to have their own goals and sub plots to keep them aimed for something. 
			</dd>
			<dt class="postheader">
				Title: <strong>Re: GOC Ploting.</strong><br>
				Post by: <strong>Haibane</strong> on <strong>20-10-2010, 03:12:54</strong>
			</dt>
			<dd class="postbody">
				Do you agree with my thoughts and opinions? Its not from some RPing Bible or anything, just my personal take on Group RPs after having done them (badly) for a few years and tried to work out where I was going wrong.<br><br><div class="quoteheader"><div class="topslice_quote"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=11726">Quote from: Angzyn on 20-10-2010, 01:45:59</a></div></div><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote">What would you think about having the mother and daughter. After all it add some fire...the cheating wife who scolds her daughter for doing the same thing she had been doing for years. <br></blockquote><div class="quotefooter"><div class="botslice_quote"></div></div> It is so difficult because the potential of the previous game was very high. We could have some family elements in the game - mother, daughter, maybe 2 guests... but would the guests be male or female? If male, they'd just effectively be extra competition for the gladiators and if female just additions to the gladiator harem. So... tricky.<br><br>There is also the case so often that most female characters end up bi while most male are straight. What sort of game would we have if you the GM said only straight characters, no bisexuality allowed. Not very Roman but it would alter the dynamic of the game a fair bit.<br><br>I'm not convinced about female gladiators. Yes I know there were some but hardly any and to have two in this mix feels like you're pandering to some need you perceive the game has. For the sake of efficiency and discipline I would have thought that there were female gladiator training schools if there were enough of them, but to mix the sexes is inviting trouble.<br><br>I hope others post to throw ideas around, and I hope they were all not scared away by the first game.
			</dd>
		</dl>
		<div id="footer" class="smalltext">
			
			<span class="smalltext" style="display: inline; visibility: visible; font-family: Verdana, Arial, sans-serif;"><a href="https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?action=credits" title="Simple Machines Forum" target="_blank" class="new_win">SMF 2.0.19</a> |
 <a href="https://www.simplemachines.org/about/smf/license.php" title="License" target="_blank" class="new_win">SMF © 2021</a>, <a href="https://www.simplemachines.org" title="Simple Machines" target="_blank" class="new_win">Simple Machines</a>
			</span>
		</div>