Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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							<b><u><font size="3">Arena Tournament, Round 13: <font color="Red">Blaize</font> vs. <font color="Blue">Marge</font></font></u></b><br>
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<b>Map</b><br>
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<b>XP Award:</b> 600 XP<br>
<b>GP Award:</b> 600 GP<br>
<br>
And<br>
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First Place: <b>Ring of Protection +1</b><br>
Second Place: <b>Cloak of Resistance +1</b>
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							Purchase:<br>
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75 drow poison<br>
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Marge is reserving the right to purchase more in response to Blaize's purchases.<br>
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Init: <span class="diceroll">(1d20-4)[<b>-3</b>]</span>
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					<img src="images/sand/icons/icon_scroll.png" alt="Default" title="Default"> Re: Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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							<b>Blaize</b><br>
<br>
Initiative roll:  <span class="diceroll">(1d20+3)[<b>12</b>]</span><br>
<br>
Blaize loads his crossbow, slings it over his shoulder, pulls two scrolls from his belt and holds one in each hand and says, <font color="DarkRed">"Good luck to you, Marge."</font>  He then moves to stand in front of his entrance.<br>
<br>
ooc:  Since I'll bet that Blaize will go first, I will start...<br>
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Starting in Y11, Blaize reads his mage armor scroll (standard), drops it (free), and then moves quietly to U11.  He keeps an eye out for his opponent and her hawk familiar, and listens for spellcasting or approach.<br>
<br>
if needed:<br>
<span class="diceroll"><b>Spot</b> - (1d20+8)[<b>18</b>]</span><br>
<span class="diceroll"><b>Listen</b> - (1d20+5)[<b>6</b>]</span><br>
<span class="diceroll"><b>Spellcraft</b> - (1d20+10)[<b>14</b>]</span> &lt;--to identify any spells cast by Marge<br>
<br>
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<b>Stat Block</b><br>
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Current Location: U11<br>
<br>
begin with scrolls of exp. retreat and mage armor in hand<br>
<br>
Spells:<br>
0-level: acid splash(c), resistance, ghost sound, detect magic, daze<br>
1st-level: hail of stone(c), color spray, color spray, hail of stone, shield<br>
<br>
5 abrupt jaunts<br>
8 HP, AC 17<br>
<br>
Spells active: mage armor (1 hour)<br>
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forgot to add...<br>
Move Silently <span class="diceroll">(1d20+2)[<b>15</b>]</span> &lt;-  the -5 was already taken into account<br>
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					<img src="images/sand/icons/icon_scroll.png" alt="Default" title="Default"> Re: Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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							"buy amber amulet of huge monstrous spider (700gp)"<br>
<br>
Is <a href="http://www.coyotecode.net/profiler/view.php?id=1361" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">that</a> correct?<br>
<br>
Edit: Oops, were you done?<br>
<br>
<b>Marge</b> Round 1<br>
<br>
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<div class="spoiler-body-show" name="spoiler-body">Marge begins in B11 with the drow poison and a scroll of Expiditous Retreat in hand and her hawk at her feet.  <br>
<br>
Reactive Listen Marge <span class="diceroll">(1d20+2)[<b>20</b>]</span> Hawk <span class="diceroll">(1d20+4)[<b>7</b>]</span><br>
Reactive Spot Marge <span class="diceroll">(1d20+5)[<b>8</b>]</span> Hawk <span class="diceroll">(1d20+16)[<b>30</b>]</span><br>
<br>
(The hawk has been instructed to point (with a wing) whenever it is landed, can see Marge, and senses Blaize.)<br>
<br>
Standard action: recite the scroll<br>
Free action: drop the vial<br>
Move action: move to C19 (45') while drawing a scroll of See Invisibility move silently <span class="diceroll">(1d20-4)[<b>8</b>]</span><br>
<br>
The hawk crushes the (soft, clay) vial, and so applies the poison to its claws <span class="diceroll">(1d20)[<b>13</b>]</span> (on a 1 it poisons itself), and then flies to F4 (40') and hides.  MS <span class="diceroll">(1d20-2)[<b>16</b>]</span> hide <span class="diceroll">(1d20+6)[<b>21</b>]</span><br>
<br>
Status:<br>
Hawk -&gt;F4 AC 17 HP 8/8<br>
Marge -&gt;C19 AC 15 HP 16/16 Spells: Exped Retreat[10]</div>
</div><br>
Done.
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					<img src="images/sand/icons/icon_scroll.png" alt="Default" title="Default"> Re: Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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							<b>Blaize</b><br>
<br>
ooc:  Sorry - yes, I was done.<br>
<br>
I am not sure what the quote about the amulet was about.<br>
<br>
The Blaize character sheet you had listed is up to date.<br>
<br>
Posting round 2...<br>
<br>
Edit:  Now I understand the quote.  I didn't realize a number of things with my purchases.  Since I have it listed, it should be Large...my bad.  I can tell that this is not going to go well for me already.  <img src="images/smilies/smallstick/smallfrown.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Small Frown" class="inlineimg" t1quugpqy="">
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					<img src="images/sand/icons/icon_scroll.png" alt="Default" title="Default"> Re: Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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							<b>Blaize</b> round 2a<br>
<br>
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Staying where he is, Blaize casts shield and keeps an eye and ear out for his opponent (and her familiar) as he hides.<br>
<br>
<span class="diceroll"><b>Spot</b> - (1d20+8)[<b>22</b>]</span><br>
<span class="diceroll"><b>Listen</b> - (1d20+5)[<b>20</b>]</span><br>
<span class="diceroll"><b>Spellcraft</b> - (1d20+10)[<b>29</b>]</span> &lt;-- to identify spells or scrolls heard<br>
<span class="diceroll"><b>Hide</b> - (1d20+5)[<b>12</b>]</span><br>
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done<br>
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<b>Stat Block</b><br>
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Current Location: U11<br>
<br>
begin with scrolls of exp. retreat and mage armor in hand<br>
<br>
Spells:<br>
0-level: acid splash(c), resistance, ghost sound, detect magic, daze<br>
1st-level: hail of stone(c), color spray, color spray, hail of stone, <strike>shield</strike><br>
<br>
5 abrupt jaunts<br>
8 HP, AC 21<br>
<br>
Spells active: mage armor (1 hour), shield (20 rounds)<br>
<br>
Edit was to adjust AC.<br>
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					<img src="images/sand/icons/icon_scroll.png" alt="Default" title="Default"> Re: Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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							<b>Marge</b> round 2<br>
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<div class="spoiler-body-show" name="spoiler-body">Hawk reactive listen <span class="diceroll">(1d20+4)[<b>20</b>]</span> reactive spot <span class="diceroll">(1d20+16)[<b>34</b>]</span><br>
Marge reactive listen <span class="diceroll">(1d20)[<b>12</b>]</span> reactive spot <span class="diceroll">(1d20+3)[<b>10</b>]</span><br>
<br>
What have we heard and seen so far last round and this?<br>
<br>
Status:<br>
Hawk F4 AC 17 HP 8/8<br>
Marge C19 AC 15 HP 16/16 Spells: Exped Retreat[9]<br>
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Ref check please.
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Posting to say I am still here.  Let me know when it is my turn.
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							<font color="Green"><b><b>Ref Bigmac:</b></b></font><br>
<br>
Disregard my comments about gp limit, it seems it has only been proposed and not offically adopted.  <br>
<br>
To move things along<br>
<br>
Marge:<br>
<div class="spoiler"><div align="left" class="spoiler-title"><b>Spoiler</b></div><div align="right" class="spoiler-select-show" name="spoiler-select">
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<div class="spoiler-body-show" name="spoiler-body">You've heard some spellcasting from the other side of the arena, but there is no sign of your opponent.</div>
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<br>
Blaize<br>
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<div class="spoiler-body-show" name="spoiler-body">You haven't seen or heard any sign of your opponent, and since he hasn't taken any actions yet this turn, I have no information for you reactives for this round.  I'll update you if you hear / see anything before your next turn.</div>
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							Thanks, Bigmac<br>
<br>
<b>Marge</b> Round 2b<br>
<br>
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<div class="spoiler-body-show" name="spoiler-body"> the hawk flies to O16 (80') and hides. ms <span class="diceroll">(1d20-2)[<b>-1</b>]</span> hide <span class="diceroll">(1d20+6)[<b>20</b>]</span>.<br>
<br>
Does Marge see it point?</div>
</div>Not done.
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							<b><font color="Red">Ref Morbius</font></b><br>
<br>
Marge <div class="spoiler"><div align="left" class="spoiler-title"><b>Spoiler</b></div><div align="right" class="spoiler-select-show" name="spoiler-select">
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<div class="spoiler-body-show" name="spoiler-body"> No reaction from your familiar</div>
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							<b>Marge</b> Round 2c<br>
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<div class="spoiler-body-show" name="spoiler-body">Marge begins casting Enlarge Person.<br>
<br>
Hawk O16 AC 17 HP 8/8<br>
Marge C19 AC 15 HP 16/16 Spells: Exped Retreat[9]</div>
</div>Done.
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					<img src="images/sand/icons/icon_scroll.png" alt="Default" title="Default"> Re: Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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							<b>Blaize</b> round 3a<br>
<br>
for refs:<br>
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From Bigmac:  I'll update you if you hear / see anything before your next turn<br>
<br>
anything?<br>
<br>
rolls were:<br>
Spot 22<br>
Listen 20<br>
Spellcraft 29<br>
<br>
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<br>
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<b>Stat Block</b><br>
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Current Location: U11<br>
<br>
Spells:<br>
0-level: acid splash(c), resistance, ghost sound, detect magic, daze<br>
1st-level: hail of stone(c), color spray, color spray, hail of stone, <strike>shield</strike><br>
<br>
5 abrupt jaunts<br>
8 HP, AC 21<br>
<br>
Spells active: mage armor (1 hourish), shield (19 rounds)<br>
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							for Blaize<br>
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<div class="spoiler-body-show" name="spoiler-body">No sign of either of your opponenets, but you can barely make out the sounds of spellcasting, from the far side of the arena somewhere.  Seems to be the spell enlarge person</div>
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							<b>Blaize</b> 3a<br>
<br>
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not good...here goes:<br>
<br>
Blaize will move south from u11, passively looking for his opponent and her familiar <span class="diceroll"><b>Spot</b> - (1d20+8)[<b>23</b>]</span>.  His final position will dictate if he sees Marge.  He wishes to go to u16, but will round the corner at t17 and look from there.  He moves as quietly as he can <span class="diceroll"><b>MoveSilent</b> - (1d20+2)[<b>19</b>]</span> (this includes the -5 penalty)<br>
<br>
If he sees Marge from u16...Blaize will hide <span class="diceroll"><b>Hide</b> - (1d20)[<b>3</b>]</span> (this includes the -5 penalty).  <br>
<br>
Standard Action to follow results. <br>
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<br>
not done<br>
<br>
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<b>Stat Block</b><br>
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Current Location: From U11 going south down U column<br>
<br>
Spells:<br>
0-level: acid splash(c), resistance, ghost sound, detect magic, daze<br>
1st-level: hail of stone(c), color spray, color spray, hail of stone, <strike>shield</strike><br>
<br>
5 abrupt jaunts<br>
8 HP, AC 21<br>
<br>
Spells active: mage armor (1 hourish), shield (19 rounds)<br>
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				Barbarian in the Playground
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					<img src="images/sand/icons/icon_scroll.png" alt="Default" title="Default"> Re: Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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							Blaize<br>
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<div class="spoiler-body-show" name="spoiler-body">You see the Hawk in O16 as you enter U15</div>
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<br>
Still Blaize's turn.
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							<b>Blaize</b> 3b<br>
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Blaize will still continue to u16...he needs to find Marge.  If he cannot see Marge around the corner, he will end his move at t17.<br>
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Still not done.
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							Blaize<br>
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<div class="spoiler-body-show" name="spoiler-body">When you get to U16 you see Marge in C19 still casting a spell</div>
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							<b>Blaize</b> 3c<br>
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Blaize will stop at u16, <br>
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activate his vermin necklace and sends the Large Spider into the fray.  The spider appears 50' from his position, moves to D18/E18.  It attacks and will also get an attack of opportunity since Marge is casting.  I am not sure if she is flat footed, but I would guess so.<br>
<br>
Bite #1 <span class="diceroll">(1d20+4)[<b>22</b>]</span> for <span class="diceroll"><b>damage</b> - (1d8+3)[<b>9</b>]</span> + Fort DC 13 or 1d6 STR<br>
Bite #2 <span class="diceroll">(1d20+4)[<b>21</b>]</span> for <span class="diceroll"><b>damage</b> - (1d8+3)[<b>5</b>]</span> + Fort DC 13 or 1d6 <br>
<br>
(please see note below in stat block regarding BAB and 15 STR)<br>
[/spoiler]<br>
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Blaize then hides and watches from his position.<br>
<br>
<span class="diceroll"><b>Hide</b> - (1d20)[<b>6</b>]</span><br>
<br>
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<br>
Done, but ref will need to inform what happens.  I want to make sure all in spoiler is legit.<br>
<br>
<b>Stat Block</b><br>
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Current Location: U16<br>
<br>
Spells:<br>
0-level: acid splash(c), resistance, ghost sound, detect magic, daze<br>
1st-level: hail of stone(c), color spray, color spray, hail of stone, <strike>shield</strike><br>
<br>
5 abrupt jaunts<br>
8 HP, AC 21<br>
<br>
Spells active: mage armor (1 hourish), shield (19 rounds)<br>
<br>
<br>
Spider: 10 rounds<br>
22 HP<br>
14 AC (touch 12, flat 11)<br>
Base Attack/Grapple +3/+9<br>
Bite +4 (1d8+3 plus Fort DC 13 or 1d6 STR)<br>
Web, tremorsense, vermin, darkvision<br>
Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +1<br>
Str 15, Dex 17, Con 12, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2<br>
<br>
Note: (One quick question...with a base attack of +3 and a STR of 15...would the bite not be +5 to hit?)<br>
<br>
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							<b><font color="Red">Ref Morbius</font></b><br>
<br>
Blaize move seems valid, except marge will not be flat footed. Also about the spider attack bonus you are forgetting about the size penalty.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Marge sees that a huge monstrous spider appears, moves to D18/E18 and attacks her. The spider attacks and gets an AoO as Marge is casting, hitting AC 22 for 9 damage and AC 21 fo 5 damage. If Marge is still alive she would need to make a Fort save DC 13 for each hit or take 1d6 con damage and also would need to make a spot check.
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							I don't have the source on the Amber Amulet, but doesn't the spider emerge from the amulet?  Is it able to cover the distance and attack this round?  Also, I thought the spider was large instead of huge.  Spiders generally do STR damage instead of CON.  Confirm please?<br>
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The AoO isn't, since the spider wasn't there when she began casting.<br>
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					<img src="images/sand/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" title="Quote"> Originally Posted by <strong>SRD, Combat, Actions in Combat, Full Round Actions, Cast a Spell</strong>
					
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						Last edited by Maurkov; 2007-12-31 at <span class="time">11:23 PM</span>.
					
					
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							<b><font color="Blue">GM Kyeudo</font></b><br>
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The spider does not get an AoO. As for everything else, I haven't a clue.
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							Darius, can you take the spider's attacks outside of the spoiler block so I can see if you used large or huge stats?  Also, where exactly did the spider appear?
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							I'm away from my books while I travel, so no idea on where a summoned creature from the amber amulet would appear.  Need that cleared up so that this can continue.  If Darius can PM the appropreate information or just post a quote with a reference to the mechanics that could help clear this up.<br>
<br>
Edit: From some descriptions I've read in the FR wiki, it sounds like the amulet needs to be broken to summon the creature, and that the creature appears where the amulet is broken.
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					<img src="images/sand/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" title="Quote"> Originally Posted by <strong>Bigmac</strong>
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				<div class="message">I'm away from my books while I travel, so no idea on where a summoned creature from the amber amulet would appear.  Need that cleared up so that this can continue.  If Darius can PM the appropreate information or just post a quote with a reference to the mechanics that could help clear this up.<br>
<br>
Edit: From some descriptions I've read in the FR wiki, it sounds like the amulet needs to be broken to summon the creature, and that the creature appears where the amulet is broken.</div>
			
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</div><b><font color="Red">Ref Morbius</font></b><br>
<br>
Break it<img src="images/smilies/smallstick/smalleek.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Small Eek" class="inlineimg" t1quugpqy=""> ? If the description says that it works once a day why does it breaks?<br>
<br>
I assumed he could summon it away 50 feet because the description says that that it works like summon nature's ally and the spider amulet has a minimun caster level of 10(25feet + 5/2 levels) . I apologize if the spider does not get a AoO but I clearly remember this happening on at least other two matches here in the arena (character was casting a full round spell and someone get's close and recieves an AoO).<br>
<br>
And indeed it's str damage not con damage, my bad. And don't worry he used the attack values for a large spider(Attack: Bite +4 melee (damage 1d8+3 plus poison), he was just very lucky.<br>
<br>
<br>
to refs<br>
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The only thing about Blaize action that I am notsure about is if he can hide again after using the item. Snipping requires a move action to hide again, but he is not using a ranged attack. I didn't worried about this as I though Marge was pretty much dead. So could he hide again like that? And would it require a move action?</div>
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							<b>Blaize</b> for Maurov's request:<br>
<br>
Spoiler tags in 3c were removed to show Spider's action.  <br>
<br>
<br>
Spider: 10 rounds<br>
22 HP<br>
14 AC (touch 12, flat 11)<br>
Base Attack/Grapple +3/+9<br>
Bite +4 (1d8+3 plus Fort DC 13 or 1d6 STR)<br>
Web, tremorsense, vermin, darkvision<br>
Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +1<br>
Str 15, Dex 17, Con 12, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2<br>
<br>
Edit:  Bite #1 1d20+4 = 22 for 1d8+3 for 9 damage and DC 13 or 1d6 STR damage<br>
<br>
Too bad about Bite #2...or does that one carry over?  <img src="images/smilies/smallstick/smallbiggrin.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Small Big Grin" class="inlineimg"><br>
<br>
<br>
Edit#2:  I think a Concentration Check is needed, too, right?  9 damage means DC 19 Concentration check or lose spell.<br>
<br>
Edit#3:  Just to remind everyone, Blaize is done with round 3, then.
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					<img src="images/sand/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" title="Quote"> Originally Posted by <strong>Morbius</strong>
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				<div class="message"><b><font color="Red">Ref Morbius</font></b><br>
<br>
Break it? If the description says that it works once a day why does it breaks?<br>
<br>
I assumed he could summon it away 50 feet because the description says that that it works like summon nature's ally</div>
			
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</div>Is there more than one source for this item?  I went to Amazon and was able to browse p70 of the Magic of Faerun (3.5).  Start <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Faerun-Dungeons-Dragons-Fantasy-Roleplaying/dp/0786919647" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">here</a>, click "search inside" above the picture, type "amber amulet of vermin" and click to view page 70.<br>
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					<img src="images/sand/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" title="Quote"> Originally Posted by <strong>Magic of Faerun (3.5)</strong>
					
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				<div class="message"><b>Amber Amulet of Vermin</b> This amber nugget on a gold chain holds a normal-size vermin within its yellow depths.  When broken, it releases the vermin, which instantly grows to enormous size (as noted below) as if you had cast <i>giant vermin</i> upon it.  Each amulet works only once.</div>
			
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</div>So from that source, it's based on <i>gaint vermin</i>, you do break it, and since the vermin is contained inside, it seems it should appear next to you.  Blaize only has to use a standard action to activate it, though.
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				Bugbear in the Playground
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							Page 68 of the Magic Item Compendium (all direct quotes of entire text except in [] which includes information from table:<br>
<br>
Price (Item Level): See table [700 gold]<br>
Body Slot: Throat<br>
Caster Level: See table [listed at CL 10th]<br>
Aura: See table; (DC varies) transmutation [listed as Moderate DC 20]<br>
Activation: Standard (command)<br>
Weight: -<br>
<i><br>
This irregularly shaped piece of natural amber is fastened at the end of a long golden chain.  Within the amber a tiny creature still seems to twitch.</i><br>
<br>
This item summons a giant vermin that appears and obeys your commands for 1 minute (as if summoned by <i>summon nature's ally</i>).  At the end of this duration, the creature vanishes.<br>
<br>
Eight varieties of the <i>amber amulet of vermin </i>exist (see the table for the details of each version).  An <i>amber amulet of vermin </i>works once per day.<br>
<i><br>
Prerequisites:</i> Craft Wondrous Item, giant vermin.<br>
<i>Cost to Create:</i> Varies<br>
<br>
__________________________________________________  ________<br>
<br>
Now, Morbius is correct when he said...<br>
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				I assumed he could summon it away 50 feet because the description says that that it works like summon nature's ally
			
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</div>since <i>summon nature's ally </i>has a range of 25' + 5'/2 lvls = 50'<br>
<br>
Also, nothing says one needs to break it.<br>
<br>
Edit:  In addition, if one were to contest that <i>giant vermin </i>spell should be used, the range on that spell is the same (25' + 5'/2 lvls = 50')<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Result:<br>
So, <b>9 damage </b>+ <b>Fort DC 13 </b>or [roll=Poison]1d6[/roll] Strength drain <br>
and a <b>DC 20 Concentration </b>(I messed up on calculation of Concentration checks...should be 10+damage+lvl of spell) or lose spell
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							<b><font color="Blue">GM Kyeudo</font></b><br>
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Since Darius bought the item as the MIC version, we'll have to base it around that. The spider could be summoned where it was and so could attack. Let's get this match moving again, unless there is some new problem.
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					<img src="images/sand/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" title="Quote"> Originally Posted by <strong>Darius</strong>
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				<div class="message">Page 68 of the Magic Item Compendium<br></div>
			
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</div><b><font color="Red">Ref Morbius</font></b><br>
<br>
Yeah, that is the item version that I was talking about
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				Bugbear in the Playground
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					<img src="images/sand/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" title="Quote"> Originally Posted by <strong>Kyeudo</strong>
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				<div class="message"><b><font color="Blue">GM Kyeudo</font></b><br>
Let's get this match moving again, unless there is some new problem.</div>
			
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</div><b>Blaize</b>: 3d<br>
<br>
<u>Spider attack</u><br>
Marge sees that a huge monstrous spider appears 30' away from her, it quickly moves to D18/E18 and attacks her. The spider bites Marge while casting, hitting AC 22 for 9 damage. <br>
<br>
Result:<br>
9 damage + Fort DC 13 or <span class="diceroll"><b>Poison</b> - (1d6)[<b>3</b>]</span> Strength drain <br>
<br>
...and a DC 20 Concentration or lose spell<br>
<br>
<i>Done</i><br>
<br>
<b>Stat Block</b><br>
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<div class="spoiler-body-show" name="spoiler-body"><br>
Current Location: U16<br>
<br>
Spells:<br>
0-level: acid splash(c), resistance, ghost sound, detect magic, daze<br>
1st-level: hail of stone(c), color spray, color spray, hail of stone, <strike>shield</strike><br>
<br>
5 abrupt jaunts<br>
8 HP, AC 21<br>
<br>
Spells active: mage armor (1 hourish), shield (19 rounds)<br>
<br>
Large Monstrous Spider: 10 rounds<br>
Current Location: D18/E18 <br>
<br>
22 HP<br>
14 AC (touch 12, flat 11)<br>
Base Attack/Grapple +3/+9<br>
Bite +4 (1d8+3 plus Fort DC 13 or 1d6 STR)<br>
Web, tremorsense, vermin, darkvision<br>
Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +1<br>
Str 15, Dex 17, Con 12, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2<br>
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					<img src="images/sand/icons/icon_scroll.png" alt="Default" title="Default"> Re: Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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							The MIC version is quite an item.<br>
<br>
Fort Save <span class="diceroll">(1d20+3)[<b>8</b>]</span> : fail<br>
Concentration check <span class="diceroll">(1d20+7)[<b>22</b>]</span> : pass<br>
<br>
<b>Marge</b> Round 3<br>
<br>
Despite being bitten, Marge completes her spell and grows to a size similar to that of the spider. (Expand into B19-C20)<br>
<br>
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<div class="spoiler-body-show" name="spoiler-body">reactive sense checks<br>
Hawk listen <span class="diceroll">(1d20+4)[<b>13</b>]</span> spot <span class="diceroll">(1d20+16)[<b>30</b>]</span><br>
Marge listen <span class="diceroll">(1d20)[<b>11</b>]</span> spot <span class="diceroll">(1d20+3)[<b>8</b>]</span><br>
<br>
We sense anything?<br>
<br>
Status:<br>
Hawk O16 AC 17 HP 8/8<br>
Marge (B19-C20) AC 13 HP 7/16 Spells: Exped Retreat[8] Enlarge person[20] -3 STR damage (poison save required round 13)<br>
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							ooc:  My turn?  Just checking because you edited out the, "not done".<br>
<br>
Also, I dusted off my old <u>Magic of Faerun</u>...that book is not 3.5 as posted earlier by Maurkov, for the PrC in it had skills like Alchemy, Innuendo, and Scry (all from 3.0) and it was copyrighted in 2001 with the first printing of 3.5 being 2003.  In addition, some of the spells and PrC have been altered or omitted entirely and are now part of <u>Players Guide to Faerun </u>and <u>Spell Compendium</u>, both 3.5 sources.<br>
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Just thought you would want to know.
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							I don't have it, just echoing what I <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Faerun-Dungeons-Dragons-Fantasy-Roleplaying/dp/0786919647" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">saw</a> on Amazon.  No, I'm not done.
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					<img src="images/sand/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" title="Quote"> Originally Posted by <strong>Maurkov</strong>
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				<div class="message">I don't have it, just echoing what I <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Faerun-Dungeons-Dragons-Fantasy-Roleplaying/dp/0786919647" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">saw</a> on Amazon.</div>
			
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</div>Not a problem...I just wanted to make sure that things were clear.<br>
<br>
Edit:  Speaking of clarity...what is Marge holding?<br>
<br>
Also, what is the official reach of her if she is using her long spear?  15'?
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your hawk points toward the eastern end of the rock formatin, and you heard some form of magic device activation from that direction just before the spider appeared, but you can't seem to spot Blaize yourself<br>
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</div>Right...I was just checking to see what Marges 'actual reach' would be.  <br>
<br>
This...<b>Originally Posted by SRD, Equipment, Weapons, Weapon Categories, Melee and Ranged Weapons, Reach Weapons</b> <br>
A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.<br>
<br>
...doesn't tell me much specifically.  So, is it 15 or 20?  I figure 20, but I want to make sure.<br>
<br>
SRD said this, too:<br>
Large or larger creatures using reach weapons can strike up to double their natural reach but can’t strike at their natural reach or less.  <br>
<br>
So, since 5' (Marge normal size) using reach (doubling) = 10' reach; that would make Large Marge (whose reach and weapon doubled to 10') have a 20' reach with her spear and 10' reach for grappling and armor spikes. <br>
<br>
I merely ask since I do not want to wade through all the previous combats Marge has done to find the answer.  I would appreciate specific 15' or 20' with spear answer instead of the one quoted from the PH/SRD that is not specific.<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
<br>
Edit:  Also, still waiting to find out what Marge is holding in her hands.  I figure she can only have 1 thing max since she just cast a spell, but I can wait until you are done with your round since it may change.
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					<img src="images/sand/icons/icon_scroll.png" alt="Default" title="Default"> Re: Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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					<img src="images/sand/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" title="Quote"> Originally Posted by <strong>Darius</strong>
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				<div class="message">I merely ask since I do not want to wade through all the previous combats Marge has done to find the answer.  I would appreciate specific 15' or 20' with spear answer instead of the one quoted from the PH/SRD that is not specific.</div>
			
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</div>I'll refer you to my stance that I shared with Arkol during his matches that the judges are here to try and enforce the rules and help sort out questions in interpretation.  It is not their job to explain rule mechanics since that is part of what differentiates gladiators in the arena.  If a rule question arises that can be answered by the SRD, then pointing out the place where the answer can be found should be sufficient.  In the previous match with Arkol, the question was what was considered cover.  I pointed out the place in the SRD where it explained how cover was determined.  Even though he still had questions about weither his opponent had cover, he had the resources available to guide his actions.<br>
<br>
In this case, I feel that the section quoted provides enough information to allow you to determine how reach for a large creature should be handled.  Also, as you state, you can examine previous matches to help you.  But it is up to you to find this information out.  If Markov wants to tell you, that's up to him, but it is not required of him, or in my opnion of the judges.
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					<img src="images/sand/icons/icon_scroll.png" alt="Default" title="Default"> Re: Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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							I'll try to clarify.  Where the SRD says "15 or 20", it means both.  Large Marge's longspear threatens all squares 15' away and 20' away, but it doesn't threaten at 5' or 10'.<br>
<br>
She holds a scroll.  I realize I never explicitly dropped another scroll she was holding; I forgot about it after she cast from it.  You are correct that she needed a free hand to cast.<br>
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<b>Marge</b> Round 3b<br>
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<div class="spoiler-body-show" name="spoiler-body">At Marge's mental command, the hawk springs into action.  It flies O16-&gt;O17-&gt;P18-&gt;T18-&gt;U17 (40', still moving).  If the hawk can perceive Blaize within 20', it completes its move to there and attacks. Otherwise it flies 10' north and then NW to land at L7 (115', double move).</div>
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If the hawk finds and attacks Blaize (a ref will have to tell us), does he jaunt?  Not done.
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					<img src="images/sand/icons/icon_scroll.png" alt="Default" title="Default"> Re: Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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					<img src="images/sand/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" title="Quote"> Originally Posted by <strong>Bigmac</strong>
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				<div class="message">I'll refer you to my stance that I shared with Arkol during his matches that the judges are here to try and enforce the rules and help sort out questions in interpretation.  It is not their job to explain rule mechanics since that is part of what differentiates gladiators in the arena.  If a rule question arises that can be answered by the SRD, then pointing out the place where the answer can be found should be sufficient.  In the previous match with Arkol, the question was what was considered cover.  I pointed out the place in the SRD where it explained how cover was determined.  Even though he still had questions about weither his opponent had cover, he had the resources available to guide his actions.<br>
<br>
In this case, I feel that the section quoted provides enough information to allow you to determine how reach for a large creature should be handled.  Also, as you state, you can examine previous matches to help you.  But it is up to you to find this information out.  If Markov wants to tell you, that's up to him, but it is not required of him, or in my opnion of the judges.</div>
			
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</div>ooc:  Wow...I am not sure where that came from, and I didn't appreciate the admonishment.  I thought I asked nicely and didn't deserve this from a judge.<br>
<br>
@Maurkov - thank you for the response of both hands and threatened area.  That is what I thought (as posted in the above), but thank you none-the-less.  <br>
<br>
As for your question - no jaunt if attacked by hawk.
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					<img src="images/sand/icons/icon_scroll.png" alt="Default" title="Default"> Re: Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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							Darius, I don't think you were being admonished.  The philosophy Bigmac mentioned is one I've seen with regard to judging Magic: the Gathering.  You can tell people the rules, but have to let them sort out the interactions, since that's a major place where player skill comes in.  <br>
<br>
In case the hawk finds you:<br>
attack <span class="diceroll">(1d20+6)[<b>10</b>]</span> damage <span class="diceroll">(1d4-2)[<b>-1</b>]</span>
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					<img src="images/sand/icons/icon_scroll.png" alt="Default" title="Default"> Re: Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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							Darius, sorry if it came off as an admonishment.  I was just trying to explain that there's some quesions I feel refs can answer and some they can't or at least shouldn't.  It's perfectly fine for the other player to answer if they want to (and I thought Markov would since you asked nicely) I just didn't want you to think I was ignoreing your question.  <br>
<br>
The hawk does spot Darius in U16 and attacks him there.
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					<img src="images/sand/icons/icon_scroll.png" alt="Default" title="Default"> Re: Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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							No problem...all is well. <br>
<br>
I understand and, as I said, really appreciate the answers given.  It saves me a lot of time, and this old dog is learning lots of new tricks in the process.  Between Grawl and Marge, I am finding wonderful combos.  I don't think I am as skilled at this as either Bigmac or Maurkov are, but I am trying.<br>
<br>
One of the table-top DMs I play with is a huge combo freak that whips up challenges like those two that really school us players and humble us in the process.<br>
<br>
The thing I like about these games is: a) the learning curve on how to make great (meaning combat oriented) characters, and b) the learning curve on the rules.  I find it is making me a better player and GM.  By the time I master these rules, 4.0 will be out <img src="images/smilies/smallstick/smalltongue.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Small Tongue" class="inlineimg" t1quugpqy=""> <br>
<br>
<b>Blaize</b><br>
<br>
ooc:  10 is a miss...the hawk is in u16 on the ground now, correct?  <br>
<br>
<br>
Even though Bigmac listed my position, I don't think Marge would know where Blaize is, yet (but the hawk does) since the hawk cannot communicate this information empathically (and Marge doesn't speak familiar, yet).  Since we are behind the cover of the wall, I think a Spot check is needed to locate the pair locked in combat.<br>
<br>
Here is what I figure: +9 for distance, +8 for tiny animal, +5 for distracted (has a big spider up in her grill) would equal a DC 22 to Spot; Blaize rolled a 6 on his Hide +9 distance, +6 hide, +5 distracted so DC 20 to Spot Blaize.<br>
<br>
+9 for distance, +5 for distracted, -10 battle for a DC 4 on Listen, right?<br>
<br>
(it is odd that one could be in a battle and not have the same penalty to Listen as the Listen check for a combat would provide.  ::shrug:: )<br>
<br>
Let me know when it is my turn.<br>
<br>
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<b>Stat Block</b><br>
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Current Location: U16 (6 on Hide roll)<br>
<br>
Spells:<br>
0-level: acid splash(c), resistance, ghost sound, detect magic, daze<br>
1st-level: hail of stone(c), color spray, color spray, hail of stone, <strike>shield</strike><br>
<br>
5 abrupt jaunts<br>
8 HP, AC 21<br>
<br>
Spells active: mage armor (1 hourish), shield (19 rounds)<br>
<br>
Large Monstrous Spider: 10 rounds<br>
Current Location: D18/E18 <br>
<br>
22 HP<br>
14 AC (touch 12, flat 11)<br>
Base Attack/Grapple +3/+9<br>
Bite +4 (1d8+3 plus Fort DC 13 or 1d6 STR)<br>
Web, tremorsense, vermin, darkvision<br>
Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +1<br>
Str 15, Dex 17, Con 12, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2<br>
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					<img src="images/sand/icons/icon_scroll.png" alt="Default" title="Default"> Re: Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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							I don't think "distracted" applies unless you're under an effect that specifically mentions it, like a bard's fascination or a hypnotism spell.  Marge knows where you are because the hawk is fighting (and not hiding), and has to enter your square to attack.  The hawk flew far enough this turn to remain airborne.<br>
<br>
<b>Marge</b> Round 3c<br>
<br>
Marge attemps to evade the spider and heads north. (Tumble 5' to A18-B19) <span class="diceroll">(1d20+3)[<b>19</b>]</span>, (assuming she makes it or fails but survives the AoO), she breaks line of sight as she enters A10-B11<br>
<br>
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<div class="spoiler-body-show" name="spoiler-body">Drop the scroll in A10, draw the longspear while moving.  Move to A8-B9 (55'), ready the longspear for a charge.<br>
<br>
Status:<br>
Hawk U16 AC 17 HP 8/8<br>
Marge A8-B9 AC 13 HP 7/16 Expeditious Retreat[7] Enlarge Person[19] -3 STR damage</div>
</div>Done.
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						Last edited by Maurkov; 2008-01-07 at <span class="time">05:37 PM</span>.
					
					
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					<img src="images/sand/icons/icon_scroll.png" alt="Default" title="Default"> Re: Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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							Markov is correct.  The hawk has to move into your square to attack and Marge can see U16 where the hawk is attacking something.  Unless there's a random monster in the arena, Marge can deduce that Blaize is in U16 even if he can't see him.
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					<img src="images/sand/icons/icon_scroll.png" alt="Default" title="Default"> Re: Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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							<b>Blaize</b><br>
<br>
ooc:  True the hawk is not hiding, but I did not add any extra to the Spot check for hiding for the hawk, the +8 is only because it is a tiny creature.  <br>
<br>
It says this in the SRD under Spot:<br>
<br>
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				<b>Check:</b> The Spot skill is <u>used primarily </u>to detect characters or creatures who are hiding. Typically, your Spot check is opposed by the Hide check of the creature trying not to be seen. <b>Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it.</b>
			
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</div>Although Blaize is not using the soft cover of the spider to Hide because you can't (nor is the bird), I would contend that it would be difficult to see around/over the spider and would require a Spot check because we are in a 'difficult to see' situation.  I think soft cover like this would constitute that.<br>
<br>
I guess it is up to a Judge to rule on whether a Spot is needed or not...but since Marge ran away, the point is moot.<br>
<br>
The funny thing is there is no "distracted" condition...there are only situations under Concentration skill mentioned.  Weird.<br>
<br>
<br>
At any rate...action:<br>
<br>
Since I don't know where Marge is, but I would guess the spider does...<br>
<br>
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The spider gives chase and moves north up the D-line until it is 25' feet away and can still shoot it's web.  It will fire its web at Marge:<br>
<br>
Ranged Touch <span class="diceroll"><b>Attack</b> - (1d20+1)[<b>4</b>]</span>  <br>
(BAB +3, +3 Dex, -1 Size, -4 Range = +1 Attack)<br>
<br>
If successful:<br>
If you hit, the target is entangled. An entangled creature takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty on Dexterity, can move at only half speed, and cannot charge or run. The Spider controls the trailing rope by succeeding on an opposed Strength check while holding it, the entangled creature can move only within the limits that the web allows. If the entangled creature attempts to cast a spell, it must make a DC 15 Concentration check or be unable to cast the spell.<br>
<br>
An entangled creature can escape with a DC 13 Escape Artist check (a full-round action). The web has 12 hit points and can be burst with a DC 17 Strength check (also a full-round action).<br>
<br>
<br>
Question:  How high up are the pillars?<br>
Edit:  Found it...15'.<br>
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Not Done<br>
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<b>Stat Block</b><br>
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Current Location: U16 (6 on Hide roll)<br>
<br>
Spells:<br>
0-level: acid splash(c), resistance, ghost sound, detect magic, daze<br>
1st-level: hail of stone(c), color spray, color spray, hail of stone, <strike>shield</strike><br>
<br>
5 abrupt jaunts<br>
8 HP, AC 21<br>
<br>
Spells active: mage armor (1 hourish), shield (18 rounds)<br>
<br>
Large Monstrous Spider: 9 rounds<br>
Current Location: D18/E18 <br>
<br>
22 HP<br>
14 AC (touch 12, flat 11)<br>
Base Attack/Grapple +3/+9<br>
Bite +4 (1d8+3 plus Fort DC 13 or 1d6 STR)<br>
Web (7 left), tremorsense, vermin, darkvision<br>
Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +1<br>
Str 15, Dex 17, Con 12, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2<br>
</div>
</div><br>
Edit to fix Stat Block
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					<img src="images/sand/icons/icon_scroll.png" alt="Default" title="Default"> Re: Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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							I just realized something...I think Marge should have drawn an attack of opportunity from her Tumble movement.<br>
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				Marge attemps to evade the spider and heads north. (Tumble 5' to A18-B19) (1d20+3)[19], (assuming she makes it or fails but survives the AoO), she breaks line of sight as she enters A10-B11
			
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</div>SRD under Tumble:<br>
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				<b>DC 15:</b>  Tumble at <b>one-half speed </b>as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so. Failure means you provoke attacks of opportunity normally. Check separately for each opponent you move past, in the order in which you pass them (player’s choice of order in case of a tie). Each additional enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble DC.
			
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</div>And further down it says:<br>
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				Accelerated Tumbling: You try to tumble past or through enemies more quickly than normal. By accepting a –10 penalty on your Tumble checks, you can move at your full speed instead of one-half your speed.
			
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</div>In order for Marge to have moved that far, she would have had to be doing some form of accelerated tumbling and would provoke the AoO.<br>
<br>
If I am correct, do we just use the earlier AoO?
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							I don't see the problem.  Marge tumbled 5' (10' of movement) out of the threatened square, then walked the rest of the way.
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							My point is half movement is different from double the movement cost like hindering terrain.  So, Marge's 30' movement should be 15'.
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							That's half speed, not half movement, but I can't find a quote that makes it clear you can both tumble and regular move as part of a single move action.  Better get a ref while I look further.<br>
<br>
Edit:  The best I can find is part you already quoted.<br>
---<br>
DC 15: Tumble at one-half speed as <b>part</b> of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity <b>while </b>doing so. <br>
---<br>
I emphasized the parts that indicate it is not necessary to tumble for the entire distance moved.
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							Here: <a href="http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a</a> on page 33 and 34 of D&amp;D FAQ v.3.5 34 Update Version: 10/19/07<br>
<br>
Found this:<br>
<b>Q:</b> When a character tumbles (at half speed) during a<br>
move action, does that mean he is moving at half speed for<br>
the whole move, or just in the squares where tumbling?<br>
<br>
<b>A: </b>Although it’s easiest to apply the half-speed penalty to the<br>
entire move action, <u>it’s not strictly necessary to do so</u>.<br>
<br>
If the player and DM can handle this additional level of<br>
complexity, it’s perfectly okay to rule that you pay an extra<br>
movement cost only for each square that you use Tumble to<br>
exit without provoking an attack of opportunity (as well as for<br>
each square of an enemy’s space that you enter using Tumble).<br>
For example, imagine Ember begins her turn 10 feet from<br>
an orc and wants to use Tumble to move through its space and<br>
end up 15 feet away on the opposite side.<br>
<br>
• Her first square of movement wouldn’t provoke<br>
attacks of opportunity (since she’s not leaving a<br>
threatened square), so she doesn’t use Tumble or<br>
move at half speed.<br>
<br>
• Her second and third squares of movement take her<br>
through the orc’s space, so these effectively cost<br>
twice normal (that is, they each cost 1 extra square of<br>
movement), and this movement requires a DC 25<br>
Tumble check. (If you’re using this system, it’s much<br>
easier to think of tumbling as costing extra squares of<br>
movement rather than actually changing your speed.)<br>
Ember has now paid a total of 5 squares of movement<br>
(out of the 8 allotted to her for her speed of 40 feet).<br>
<br>
• Assuming that check succeeds, Ember now moves<br>
from a threatened square (adjacent to the orc), which<br>
requires a DC 15 Tumble check and costs twice<br>
normal (or 1 extra square of movement). She’s now<br>
paid a total of 7 squares of movement.<br>
<br>
• Finally, Ember moves one last square, ending up 15<br>
feet from the orc on the opposite side from where she<br>
began. She’s not leaving a threatened square, so she<br>
doesn’t use Tumble or pay any extra movement.<br>
Ember has paid for 8 squares (40 feet) of movement,<br>
and has covered a linear distance of 5 squares (25<br>
feet).<br>
<br>
Long story short...you are correct (and I learned something new, too), for I would bet that the judges would rule in your favor here since they hate me.  <img src="images/smilies/smallstick/smallbiggrin.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Small Big Grin" class="inlineimg">
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					<img src="images/sand/icons/icon_scroll.png" alt="Default" title="Default"> Re: Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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							I'm pretty sure they hate us all.  <br>
<br>
I don't mind revealing a bit of OOC information to keep this moving:  Marge is between 35' and 60' from the spider.  If it is going to make a charge attack, we could resolve that now.
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					<img src="images/sand/icons/icon_scroll.png" alt="Default" title="Default"> Re: Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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							Maurkov...FYI, you had this happen:<br>
<br>
Copying from spoiler...<br>
<br>
[The spider gives chase and moves north up the D-line until it is 25' feet away and can still shoot it's web. It will fire its web at Marge:<br>
<br>
Ranged Touch Attack - (1d20+1)[4] <br>
(BAB +3, +3 Dex, -1 Size, -4 Range = +1 Attack)]<br>
<br>
Obviously, the spider missed with its web.  Since I don't know where you are, I don't know where to place the spider.  Here is grenade effect of the missed web that now splats against floor and perhaps wall in this area.  <span class="diceroll"><b>misdirection</b> - (1d8)[<b>3</b>]</span> <br>
<br>
Edit:  It looks like it went wide left.<br>
<br>
Since the monster description says something to the effect that webs may be spun from 5'-60' square depending on the size of the spider, and there are 7 size categories, I would surmise that the splat could be large (at least large enough to get Marge).  <br>
<br>
<br>
Also, your hawk needs to make a Will save.<br>
<br>
<b>Blaize</b><br>
<br>
Action:<br>
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Blaize takes a 5' step away from the menacing hawk to T15 and pulls out some colored sand from his spell pouch.  He flings it at the hawk and incants the familiar words of magic.<br>
<br>
ooc: cast <i>color spray</i> at hawk.  Will Save DC 18.<br>
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Current Location: T15 (6 on Hide roll)<br>
<br>
Spells:<br>
0-level: acid splash(c), resistance, ghost sound, detect magic, daze<br>
1st-level: hail of stone(c), color spray, <strike>color spray</strike>, hail of stone, <strike>shield</strike><br>
<br>
5 abrupt jaunts<br>
8 HP, AC 21<br>
<br>
Spells active: mage armor (1 hourish), shield (18 rounds)<br>
<br>
Large Monstrous Spider: 9 rounds<br>
Current Location: was in D18/E18, but now is 25' away from Marge<br>
<br>
22 HP<br>
14 AC (touch 12, flat 11)<br>
Base Attack/Grapple +3/+9<br>
Bite +4 (1d8+3 plus Fort DC 13 or 1d6 STR)<br>
Web (7 left), tremorsense, vermin, darkvision<br>
Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +1<br>
Str 15, Dex 17, Con 12, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2<br>
<br>
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							Now whose pet is acting more intelligently than is warranted?  At least the familiar <b>has</b> an INT score. <img src="images/smilies/smallstick/smalltongue.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Small Tongue" class="inlineimg" t1quugpqy=""> <br>
<br>
I believe the net-like attack is different than the sheet of web (5-60' thing).  The former is an attack and the latter can be constructed as a trap.<br>
<br>
Hawk will save: <span class="diceroll">(1d20+5)[<b>21</b>]</span>.  Did Blaize do anything to provoke an AoO?<br>
<br>
Edit: The RNG is pleased
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							The spider moves north past D/E 16 to<br>
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Markov &amp; refs<br>
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<br>
I agree that a weblike net attack does not warrent a projectile miss roll nor have a splash radius.<br>
<br>
Still Blaize's turn because he has stated he isn't finished.
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					<img src="images/sand/icons/icon_scroll.png" alt="Default" title="Default"> Re: Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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					<img src="images/sand/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" title="Quote"> Originally Posted by <strong>Maurkov</strong>
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				<div class="message">Now whose pet is acting more intelligently than is warranted?  At least the familiar <b>has</b> an INT score. <img src="images/smilies/smallstick/smalltongue.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Small Tongue" class="inlineimg" t1quugpqy=""> </div>
			
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</div>Under monstrous spider:<br>
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				Monstrous spiders come in two general types: hunters and web-spinners. Hunters rove about, while <u>web-spinners usually attempt to trap prey</u>.
			
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				Web-spinners often create sheets of sticky webbing from 5 to 60 feet square, depending on the size of the spider. They usually position these sheets to snare flying creatures but can <u>also try to trap prey </u>on the ground. 
			
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</div>So there...<img src="images/smilies/smallstick/smallyuk.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Small Yuk" class="inlineimg" t1quugpqy=""> <br>
<br>
The hunters get an extra 10' move (which was not used in initial attack).  I think I would want to try and trap a big spikey thing with a long pokey thing, too - even if it wasn't in my nature.  <img src="images/smilies/smallstick/smallwink.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Small Wink" class="inlineimg" t1quugpqy=""> <br>
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Also, no AoO.<br>
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question for refs:<br>
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Since Marge is large and has a 20' spear, is the spear visible over the pillars at all?<br>
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<span class="diceroll"><b>Spot</b> - (1d20+8)[<b>25</b>]</span><br>
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							I think you're missing the distinction between throwing a web and spinning a web.  The former is an attack; the latter a trap (and a home).
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							ooc:  Too true.<br>
<br>
couple more questions for refs:<br>
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What sort of action would it be for the spider to spin its web?  Since it can shoot them out, I don't think it should take too long.  <br>
<br>
Also, an unsettling thought crossed my mind while the board was down.  I was wondering if Blaize's 25 Spot roll reveals anything odd about the hawk?<br>
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Nearly finished...waiting on answers.
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					<img src="images/sand/icons/icon_scroll.png" alt="Default" title="Default"> Re: Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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							Blaize<br>
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<div class="spoiler-body-show" name="spoiler-body">You don't see a spear, despite being 20ft long, since you are next to a wall and it's hard to see over or around it.  Not sure on the spinning a web trap thing, and no you don't see anything different about the hawk.</div>
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Still waiting on blaize
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							<b>Blaize</b> 4d<br>
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					<img src="images/sand/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" title="Quote"> Originally Posted by <strong>Bigmac</strong>
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				<div class="message">You don't see a spear, despite being 20ft long, since you are next to a wall and it's hard to see over or around it.  Not sure on the spinning a web trap thing, and no you don't see anything different about the hawk.</div>
			
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</div>Whew on the hawk...Marge must have put the drow poison on her spear, then.  For a minute there I thought she put it on her familiar's talons.  Since the familiar does piercing damage, I am not too worried about it anyway, and on top of that the bird most likely would have wiped off the poison when it landed.  Because of this, Blaize will not jaunt from the hawk's attack.<br>
<br>
As for Blaize's location, it looks to me that, yes t15 is next to the pillar/wall - but Blaize is not trying to look in that direction for Marge, for he saw Marge move north and disappear from this part of Marge's post:<br>
<br>
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				Marge attemps to evade the spider and heads north. (Tumble 5' to A18-B19) <span class="diceroll"><b>Hide</b> - (1d20+5)[<b>25</b>]</span>, (assuming she makes it or fails but survives the AoO), she breaks line of sight as she enters <b>A10-B11</b>
			
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</div>So, the wall Blaize is looking for the spear is the g9-g12 wall (not the one next to him).  <br>
<br>
<br>
At any rate, on to the action:<br>
<br>
Blaize will use the cover on the other side of the arena to <span class="diceroll"><b>Hide</b> - (1d20+5)[<b>25</b>]</span> from his opponent (Marge) and <span class="diceroll"><b>Listen</b> - (1d20+5)[<b>10</b>]</span> to the combat between his opponent and the spider reactively.   (<span class="diceroll"><b>Spellcraft</b> - (1d20+10)[<b>21</b>]</span> to identify any spells if needed)  He draws his dagger (move action) and readies himself for another hawk attack.<br>
</div>
</div><br>
<br>
done<br>
<br>
<br>
Edit: to fix Stat Block<br>
<b>Stat Block</b><br>
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Current Location: T15 with scroll (exp. retreat) and dagger in hands<br>
<br>
Spot: 25<br>
Listen: 10<br>
Hide: 25<br>
Spellcraft: 21<br>
<br>
Spells:<br>
0-level: acid splash(c), resistance, ghost sound, detect magic, daze<br>
1st-level: hail of stone(c), color spray, <strike>color spray</strike>, hail of stone, <strike>shield</strike><br>
<br>
5 abrupt jaunts<br>
8 HP, AC 21<br>
<br>
Spells active: mage armor (1 hourish), shield (18 rounds)<br>
<br>
Large Monstrous Spider: 9 rounds<br>
Current Location: was in D18/E18, but now is 25' away from Marge<br>
<br>
22 HP<br>
14 AC (touch 12, flat 11)<br>
Base Attack/Grapple +3/+9<br>
Bite +4 (1d8+3 plus Fort DC 13 or 1d6 STR)<br>
Web (7 left), tremorsense, vermin, darkvision<br>
Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +1<br>
Str 15, Dex 17, Con 12, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2<br>
</div>
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							<b>Marge</b> Round 4<br>
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<div class="spoiler-body-show" name="spoiler-body">reactive sense checks<br>
Marge: Spot <span class="diceroll">(1d20+3)[<b>14</b>]</span> listen <span class="diceroll">(1d20)[<b>3</b>]</span><br>
Hawk: spot <span class="diceroll">(1d20+16)[<b>36</b>]</span> listen <span class="diceroll">(1d20+4)[<b>12</b>]</span><br>
<br>
The hawk is going to chase down Blaize and make a lot of noise doing it.  If Blaize hit him with a spell to force last round's will save, that should limit his move to 60', and mean his in range for the attack.  The hawk will charge if possible. attack <span class="diceroll">(1d20+6)[<b>23</b>]</span> (+2 if charging) damage <span class="diceroll">(1d4-2)[<b>2</b>]</span>.  A ref will need to inform Darius.  If it hits, please inform him that talons do piercing and slashing, so his DR doesn't apply, and that he needs to make a DC13 FORT save for the poison.  Please let me know how the hawk emotes-- I'd anticipate joy if Blaize succumbs, confusion of the hawk can't find him, frustration if it misses again, and disappointment if the venom doesn't take him.<br>
<br>
Status:<br>
Hawk U16-&gt;??? AC 17(15 if charging) HP 8/8<br>
Marge A8-B9 AC 13 HP 7/16 Expeditious Retreat[6] Enlarge Person[18] -3 STR damage</div>
</div> not done.
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							<font color="DeepSkyBlue">Initiate Referee Stimpius</font><br>
<br>
To Blaize<br>
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The hawk attacks you, hitting AC 23 causing 2 points of damange. It does Piercing and Slashing damage so your DR does not apply. You also need to make a DC13 Fortitude save, after the hawk hit you.<br>
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<br>
Marge - wait for Blaize to resolve this please before carrying on with the rest of your go.
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					<img src="images/sand/icons/icon_scroll.png" alt="Default" title="Default"> Re: Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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							Woah...hold the phone...<br>
<br>
I am posting this outside of spoilers so Maurkov can state his case, too.<br>
<br>
Blaize had rolled a 25 Spot (which can tell one where invisible creatures are) and was standing next to the hawk, so no penalties there.  I had even asked if there was anything unusual about the hawk and was told no.  Therefore, I deduced that there was no poison on the hawk's talons.  I believe that information was withheld from me and should have been told to me if it were true.<br>
<br>
Secondly, the DMG on page 296 says, "A poisoned weapon or object retains its venom until the weapon scores a hit or the object is <u>touched</u> (unless the poison is wiped off before a target comes in contact with it).  Any poison smeared on an object or exposed to the elements in any way [like an opened vial] remains potent until it is <u>touched</u> or used."<br>
<br>
Since I am certain that the hawk had to be on the ground at some time prior to this, the poison would have been rubbed off due to the touch effect from the DMG (otherwise, one would apply poison and put a blade in a sheath - but this wouldn't work, for the sheath would wipe off the poison).<br>
<br>
Third, in our previous match, I did not subtract any of the hawk damage and was not corrected because of the DR1/slash or bludgeon of shirt.  Where is official ruling on talons equal to P/S weapons?  Looking up magic items of claws they are Piercing weapons.<br>
<br>
I am stating this case before any saving throw rolls are made.
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							We'll have to get a ref to adjudicate Blaize noticing the poison.  I don't see rules for it in the SRD, though the DMG might have something.  I recall 2nd edition gave some percentage.<br>
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The "or touched" is referring to contact poison.<br>
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					<img src="images/sand/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" title="Quote"> Originally Posted by <strong>SRD, Monsters, Types, Subtypes, and Special Abilities, Natural Weapons</strong>
					
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</div> You applied the damage inside spoilers, so I didn't notice until after the match, and I wasn't going to whine about it then.
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							<b><font color="DarkRed">High Ref Bronz</font></b><br>
<br>
After having looked through the SRD, DMG, and PHB (gotta love acronyms) I find no check mentioned for being able to spot a poisoned weapon or item.  I do however see a divination spell that does this, and must go with that.  Besides, noticing poison on talons is far beyond the power of a passive spot (which is used to notice presence of hiding creatures and the like). I also see no reason to reason poison is readily visible.<br>
<br>
Talons are indeed slashing AND piercing, as noted prior.<br>
<br>
Under poison in the SRD it mentions touched as an ACTIVE verb, ie contact poison.<br>
<br>
I'm not against you Darius, but this is how I will rule.  If you feel the need to go above my head, feel free.  Besides BigMac, there is Jacob and then Chili, Bitz, and Kyeudo.<br>
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As it stands, Blaize needs a fortitude save vs. poison.
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					<img src="images/sand/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" title="Quote"> Originally Posted by <strong>Bronz</strong>
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				<div class="message"><b><font color="DarkRed">High Ref Bronz</font></b><br>
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<b>After having looked through the SRD, DMG, and PHB (gotta love acronyms) I find no check mentioned for being able to spot a poisoned weapon or item.  I do however see a divination spell that does this, and must go with that.  </b>Besides, noticing poison on talons is far beyond the power of a passive spot (which is used to notice presence of hiding creatures and the like). I also see no reason to reason poison is readily visible.<br>
<br>
Under poison in the SRD it mentions touched as an ACTIVE verb, ie contact poison.<br>
<br>
I'm not against you Darius, but this is how I will rule.  <u>If you feel the need to go above my head, feel free. </u> Besides BigMac, there is Jacob and then Chili, Bitz, and Kyeudo.</div>
			
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</div>Yes, there are spells like detect secret doors, too - but an elf (like Blaize) has such keen senses that being within a close proximity, he is allowed to spot such things.  <br>
<br>
I would like someone above, then I guess.
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					<img src="images/sand/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" title="Quote"> Originally Posted by <strong>Darius</strong>
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				<div class="message">Yes, there are spells like detect secret doors, too - but an elf (like Blaize) has such keen senses that being within a close proximity, he is allowed to spot such things.  <br>
<br>
I would like someone above, then I guess.</div>
			
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</div>Just as a quick counterpoint, elves have a VERY specific ability to do that.  They have no such ability when it comes to poison.<br>
<br>
You'll have to PM someone or mention for a High Court ref or higher in the Waiting Room to have someone come check this out for you.
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							But the big part was I specifically asked if there was anything up with the hawk...I went on to say, <br>
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				"Whew on the hawk...Marge must have put the drow poison on her spear, then. For a minute there I thought she put it on her familiar's talons."
			
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</div>This would imply that I was looking at the talons rather specifically (or actively) in my humble opinion.  I believe that a 25 Spot would qualify that as a success, for it would even notice the presence of an invisible creature (and there is <i>see invisibility</i>).
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					<img src="images/sand/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" title="Quote"> Originally Posted by <strong>Darius</strong>
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				<div class="message">But the big part was I specifically asked if there was anything up with the hawk...I went on to say, <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
This would imply that I was looking at the talons rather specifically (or actively) in my humble opinion.  I believe that a 25 Spot would qualify that as a success, for it would even notice the presence of an invisible creature (and there is <i>see invisibility</i>).</div>
			
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</div>You would notice the <i>presence</i> of an invisible creature, not it's square.  Also, again, passive spots are for seeing creatures etc.  You would need an active spot (otherwise known as a move action spent) to notice something other than that.  Even so, I don't believe poison on a weapon or talons is noticeable.
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					<img src="images/sand/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" title="Quote"> Originally Posted by <strong>Bronz</strong>
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				<div class="message">You would notice the <i>presence</i> of an invisible creature, not it's square.  Also, again, passive spots are for seeing creatures etc.  <b>You would need an active spot </b>(otherwise known as a move action spent) to notice something other than that.  Even so, I don't believe poison on a weapon or talons is noticeable.</div>
			
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</div>Not true...<br>
<br>
Under Spot:<br>
<b>Action:</b> Varies. <u>Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner you can make a Spot check without using an action. </u>Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action.<br>
<br>
In this case, since the poison is NOT invisible, Blaize (who asked about the hawk) should have been given the information that talons had something on them.
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					<img src="images/sand/icons/icon_scroll.png" alt="Default" title="Default"> Re: Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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					<img src="images/sand/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" title="Quote"> Originally Posted by <strong>Darius</strong>
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				<div class="message">Not true...<br>
<br>
Under Spot:<br>
<b>Action:</b> Varies. <u>Every time you have a chance to spot something in a <b>reactive</b> manner you can make a Spot check without using an action. </u>Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action.</div>
			
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</div>I bolded the word you need to pay attention to.  Using spot <i>actively</i> is a move action.
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							I guess the big part of why I am questioning what is going on here is that Blaize specifically said he was looking at the hawk for anything odd.  Blaize took only a 5' step, cast his spell, was looking specifically for poison (as implied by my response), and he had no range penalties on the hawk.  He had to have seen something. <br>
<br>
After I was given the,"no you don't see anything different about the hawk" response from Bigmac, I even said the whew - no poison part.  In that response, I specifically mentioned that I was looking for poison on the hawk - if an active spot would have been needed to do so, it should have been told to me at that time before the rest of my actions or the hawk attack was resolved.
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							Ok, one last response for me, as we are just talking in circles.<br>
<br>
What I can say is 2 things:<br>
1) your spot was reactive in nature.  this doesn't give any kind of additional information<br>
2) IF you spent an action on your spot, it was to try and see a spear over the rocks, NOT aimed at the hawk.  The hawk was something comepletely different, and would therefore require another spot check on a seperate action.<br>
<br>
Assuming you can actually SEE poison on a weapon or something else (I don't agree with that), you weren't actually looking at it until AFTER you were looking at something else.<br>
<br>
But like I said, that's it for me on the issue.  One of us is wrong.  If it's me, I apologize, I've been wrong before and will be again.  But at this point arguing about it is pointless.  Jacob or Kyeudo will rule and that'll be that.
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							I also just realized another situation, I don't think the bird could get to Blaize, either - for it has to fly 5' before it makes a 45 degree turn or drop -5' to make the turn - this would cause the bird to crash and need to get back up which would be 2 movement actions, right?<br>
<br>
I had previously asked if the bird was in the air or on the ground - I was told, in the air still because of enough forward movement.  The hawk cannot turn on a dime like that.
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							I suspect it has plenty of move to loop around and reach your current position.  It's last move was northward, so with 45'  of move it could go U16-&gt;V15-&gt;W15-&gt;X16-&gt;X17-&gt;W18-&gt;V18-&gt;U17, and have 15' left to reach you.  If you went to V16, it takes extra northward squares before the loop, and can still reach you.<br>
<br>
So that I understand, the question for the high ref is whether a 25 is enough to reactively spot poison (on a light weapon, of a tiny creature, in flight)?  You weren't actively spotting or you would have needed to roll a second check.
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							Ah, that makes sense, then - wasn't sure if I got dive bombed from the pillar.  I wasn't told from where the hawk came from, so I had no idea its flight path.<br>
<br>
As for this: <div class="bbcode_container">
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				So that I understand, the question for the high ref is whether a 25 is enough to reactively spot poison (on a light weapon, of a tiny creature, in flight)? You weren't actively spotting or you would have needed to roll a second check.
			
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</div>Yes, I am wondering that very thing.  Light weapon has no relevance by the way, for it is a natural weapon.  Plus the tiny creature was right in my face since it had to enter my square.   Blaize had seen your hawk perched at o16, and it attacked me the round prior.  I would think that after this attack, Blaize's reactive Spot check would be one that would fall eactly under the confines of the definition of 'reaction' on page 312 of the PH:<br>
<br>
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				Acting in response to a situation or circumstance beyond one's control.  For example, the DM may call for a Listen check as a reaction to see if you hear something you weren't specifically trying to hear.
			
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</div>Boy, that sounds like one could change 'Listen' with 'Spot' and 'hear' with 'see'...especially when the poison isn't invisible.  <br>
<br>
Finally, it was stated that I was specifically looking for poison in my reactive post (as that was my worry).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
This brings me to another situation...<br>
<br>
Since we are on the topic of weapons, I would hope that it was Marge who put the poison on the talons and not some other method.  Since Blaize rolled a 20 on his Listen, and he didn't hear any casting on the other side of the arena (even at -10, he would have heard casting), I am assuming that Marge put the poison on the claws.  Applying poison take more than dropping a vial, it breaking, and then having a familiar walk in it.  If that is the case, then it better wipe off when the thing lands - especially when RAW says,<br>
<br>
"One dose of poison <b>smeared</b> on a weapon or some other object affects just a single target. A poisoned weapon or object retains its venom until the weapon scores a hit <u>or the object is touched </u>(unless the poison is wiped off before a target comes in contact with it). Any poison smeared on an object or exposed to the elements in any way remains potent <u>until it is touched </u>or used."<br>
<br>
it also goes onto say under <u>Perils of Using Poison</u><br>
<br>
"<b><u>A character </u></b>has a 5% chance of exposing himself to a poison whenever he applies it to a weapon or otherwise readies it for use. Additionally, <b><u>a character </u></b>who rolls a natural 1 on an attack roll with a poisoned weapon must make a DC 15 Reflex save or accidentally poison himself with the weapon."<br>
<br>
<br>
Since Blaize heard nothing, I am going to assume that Marge was the one who smeared the poison on (most likely in round 1), and she made the 5% roll to not poison herself in the prossess.  If a ref could check on that, it would be appreciated.  <br>
<br>
However, if it was the familiar that did the poison application, I would have to ask that situation be properly handled.  I realize that in the definition of character that creature may be synonymously used, but in the realm of the context of poison application, I do not think that this could be done within the realm of the tourney:<br>
<br>
In between rounds RAW:<br>
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				Animal Companions, Familiars, riding animals, and any similar pets may be switched in-between matches, with the usual costs and penalties. Animal Companions and Riding Animals are always fully trained in any tricks the owner wishes, provided he has ranks in <b>Handle Animal equal to the DC of teaching the trick - 20.</b>
			
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</div>Marge has <b>no ranks </b>in Handle Animal, so a "Applied Poison" Trick (which there isn't one) is not an option.<br>
<br>
Under Handle Animal: <br>
"Untrained: If you have no ranks in Handle Animal, you can use a Charisma check to handle and push domestic animals, but <u>you can’t teach</u>, rear, <u>or train animals</u>. <u>A druid or ranger </u>with no ranks in Handle Animal can use a Charisma check to handle and push her animal companion, but she can’t teach, rear, or train other nondomestic animals."<br>
<br>
I am simply stating all situations, for looking through our last match, Marge had trained the bird to emote pleasure or danger.  Since he has no ranks in animal handling, and has no manner to communicate with it, this should not have happened.  <br>
<br>
So, that leads me to wonder if there are a number of things that Marge has taught her familiar that got 'under the radar', and if they have happened in this match (much like the accelerated <i>enlarge person</i> in earlier matches).
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							Yes, the familiar applied the poison.  I was considering giving the poison to it on a sponge, but figured a soft clay vial was sufficient.  Yes, I rolled the self-poisoning check.<br>
<br>
I don't believe it is necessary to use HA to instruct a magical beast that understands common and has a reasonable INT score.  The familiar understands common because languages are skills, familiars have all the skill ranks possessed by their masters, and Marge speaks it.  The sentence you highlighted does not mention nor does it apply to familiars.  <br>
<br>
Bronz has already concurred with me (#68) that the "or touched" is with regard to contact poisons.  Poisons are potent until someone is forced to make a save or they get wiped off.  Landing isn't sufficient any more than setting down a weapon would be.<br>
<br>
So, we're still wondering if the poison could be noticed, and whether a 25 was sufficient.  Bronz has also ruled on this.  If you can't summon a higher ref to overturn, we should proceed with the rulings provided.
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							::Darius throws a second red flag onto the field::<br>
<br>
In addition, now that I have found out that the poison was applied by the familiar and not Marge, I would like to also ask if that is legal.  I do not agree that a hawk can 'smear' poison on its talons (or apply it properly) - especially if the 'or touched' part of losing poison is not valid when the DMG says it is.<br>
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				The sentence you highlighted does not mention nor does it apply to familiars.
			
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</div>So, since there is a RAW for one group of creatures, it should be disregarded?  If that is the case, just because there are rules that specify spells or specific skills they should be disregarded, too.  (namely detect poison spell, detect secret doors spell, and Spot skill)<br>
<br>
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				Bronz has already concurred with me (#68) that the "or touched" is with regard to contact poisons. <u>Poisons are potent until someone is forced to make a save </u>or they get wiped off. Landing isn't sufficient any more than setting down a weapon would be.
			
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</div>My DMG doesn't say that underlined part...it says 'touched' instead.
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					<img src="images/sand/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" title="Quote"> Originally Posted by <strong>Maurkov</strong>
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</div>Will do.  I am putting in a second call for the other refs who seem to have remained silent.
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							<font color="Blue"><b>GM Kyeudo</b></font><br>
<br>
Let's see, where to start.<br>
<br>
Guess I'll start where I can and hope I don't miss anything.<br>
<br>
First, just because an object is poisoned doesn't mean the poison is notable. Unless we are talking about a poison that is given as some noticable color, the only difference between a poisoned object and the regular object is the poisoned object looks slightly grimy, if that. No amount of spotting will let you tell the difference between a diving hawk and a diving hawk that might have dirty talons.<br>
<br>
Second, a familiar is not an Animal and so Handle Animal's limitations do not apply. A familiar is a sentient, intelligent (at least as intelligent as your average half-orc, sometimes smarter) creature with which a wizard has an empathic bond. So far, we've been treating familiars as capable of following somewhat complex instructions to simplify things for the refs and I see no reason to change this now. The familiar is deemed capable of applying the poison.<br>
<br>
Third, I am upholding the previous ruling that "or touched" refers to contact poisons.<br>
<br>
Now, I have 2 questions for you:<br>
What poison are we talking about here? I may amend one or more of my rulings based on the answer, but that is unlikely.<br>
and Are there any other questions?
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							The poison in question is ordinary Drow poison	(Injury DC 13 Unconsciousness/Unconsciousness for 2d4 hours, 75gp).  I have no other questions.
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					<img src="images/sand/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" title="Quote"> Originally Posted by <strong>Kyeudo</strong>
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				<div class="message"><font color="Blue"><b>GM Kyeudo</b></font><br>
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No amount of spotting will let you tell the difference between a diving hawk and a diving hawk that might have dirty talons.</div>
			
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</div>Wow - really?  I can locate an invisible creature, but I can't see goo on talons?<br>
<br>
<br>
The second part would then be, is there a circumstance bonus for such a small amount of poison or improper application from soft clay vial since the tininess has prevented Blaize from seeing it or poisononing one's own talons is nearly impossible unless one stands in it.  <br>
<br>
I don't understand how a soft clay vial would allow one to properly put poison on if one didn't drop a standard glass vial and have the familiar walk through it.  As an artist, I have worked with clay many many times.  If one were to squish the clay or poke a talon through, it would most likely wipe off or compromise the poison.
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							Darius, THE head ref has ruled against you.  You're welcome to think of this as your own personal Plessy v. Ferguson, but it's time to move on.
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					<img src="images/sand/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" title="Quote"> Originally Posted by <strong>Kyeudo</strong>
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				<div class="message"><font color="Blue"><b>GM Kyeudo</b></font><br>
Now, I have 2 questions for you:<br>
What poison are we talking about here? <b>I may amend one or more of my rulings based on the answer</b>, but that is unlikely.<br>
and Are there any other questions?</div>
			
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</div>Just waiting on this...<br>
<br>
Edit to add:<br>
<br>
If I recall, Plessy v. Ferguson was overturned by Brown v. Board of Education <img src="images/smilies/smallstick/smallwink.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Small Wink" class="inlineimg" m3b1nnc0i="">
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							<b>Blaize</b><br>
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Since Maurkov wants to move on, I will do so.  I still do not agree with the ruling, but I wanted to voice my disagreement with the ruling prior to any results of the saving throw. <br>
<br>
<span class="diceroll"><b>FortSave</b> - (1d20+1)[<b>13</b>]</span><br>
<br>
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					<img src="images/sand/icons/icon_scroll.png" alt="Default" title="Default"> Re: Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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							<b>Blaize </b>4d.5<br>
<br>
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I forgot AoO vs. Hawk...<br>
<br>
<span class="diceroll"><b>AoO</b> - (1d20-2)[<b>0</b>]</span><br>
<span class="diceroll"><b>damage</b> - (1d4-1)[<b>2</b>]</span> if hit<br>
<br>
<br>
Also, I want to make sure I understand this correctly, now since a successful attack has been made, the poison is gone and a second save is unneeded by Blaize, right?<br>
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ooc:  Please continue with your action, Maurkov...I do not think Marge would know the results of the save.<br>
<br>
<b>Stat Block</b><br>
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Current Location: T15 with scroll (exp. retreat) and dagger in hands<br>
<br>
Spot: 25<br>
Listen: 10<br>
Hide: 25<br>
Spellcraft: 21<br>
<br>
Spells:<br>
0-level: acid splash(c), resistance, ghost sound, detect magic, daze<br>
1st-level: hail of stone(c), color spray, <strike>color spray</strike>, hail of stone, <strike>shield</strike><br>
<br>
5 abrupt jaunts<br>
6/8 HP, AC 21<br>
<br>
Spells active: mage armor (1 hourish), shield (18 rounds)<br>
<br>
Large Monstrous Spider: 9 rounds<br>
Current Location: was in D18/E18, but now is 25' away from Marge<br>
<br>
22 HP<br>
14 AC (touch 12, flat 11)<br>
Base Attack/Grapple +3/+9<br>
Bite +4 (1d8+3 plus Fort DC 13 or 1d6 STR)<br>
Web (7 left), tremorsense, vermin, darkvision<br>
Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +1<br>
Str 15, Dex 17, Con 12, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2<br>
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					<img src="images/sand/icons/icon_scroll.png" alt="Default" title="Default"> Re: Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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							<b><font color="DarkRed">High Ref Bronz</font></b><br>
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@Darius<br>
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You saved the for the initial damage this time.  In 10 rounds, you still need to save for secondary damage.<br>
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Just communication.
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							Indeed, but that was a small consolation to Homer Plessy.<br>
<br>
<b>Marge</b> round 4b<br>
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<div class="spoiler-body-show" name="spoiler-body">What empathic signal does Marge receive from the hawk?</div>
</div>Not done.
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							<font color="DeepSkyBlue">Initiate Ref Stimpius </font><br>
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To Marge<br>
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Your hawk emites a feeling of disapointment.<br>
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							<b>Marge</b> round 4c<br>
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<div class="spoiler-body-show" name="spoiler-body">Ready an action:If the spider does anything except move south, 5' step to B9-C10 and attack.  That should give her two attacks; the readied action and then the AoO as the spider moves forward or tries again with the web attack.<br>
<br>
Readied attack <span class="diceroll">(1d20+3)[<b>4</b>]</span> damage <span class="diceroll">(2d6+3)[<b>10</b>]</span><br>
AoO attack <span class="diceroll">(1d20+3)[<b>22</b>]</span> damage <span class="diceroll">(2d6+3)[<b>9</b>]</span><br>
<br>
Status<br>
Hawk position unknown AC 17 HP 8/8<br>
Marge A8-B9 (readied to move to B9-C10) AC 13 HP 7/16 Expeditious Retreat[6] Enlarge Person[18] -3 STR damage<br>
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</div>Done.
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							<b><font color="Blue">GM Kyeudo</font></b><br>
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					<img src="images/sand/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" title="Quote"> Originally Posted by <strong>Darius</strong>
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				<div class="message">Wow - really?  I can locate an invisible creature, but I can't see goo on talons?<br>
<br>
<br>
The second part would then be, is there a circumstance bonus for such a small amount of poison or improper application from soft clay vial since the tininess has prevented Blaize from seeing it or poisononing one's own talons is nearly impossible unless one stands in it.  <br>
<br>
I don't understand how a soft clay vial would allow one to properly put poison on if one didn't drop a standard glass vial and have the familiar walk through it.  As an artist, I have worked with clay many many times.  If one were to squish the clay or poke a talon through, it would most likely wipe off or compromise the poison.</div>
			
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</div>You can locate an invisible creature and tell its invisible. You can't spot dirty talons and immediately tell that the talons were poisoned rather than just dipped in stagnant pond water, unless you are under the influence of the Hypercognition power.<br>
<br>
As for the application of poison, I have been unable to find a reference to applying poison that mentions requiring hands, let alone the actual method of application.
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					<img src="images/sand/icons/icon_scroll.png" alt="Default" title="Default"> Re: Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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							Question, who is controlling the spider?  Since it is summoned, I assume Darius would, but since Blaize doesn't have LoS to that area is makes it a bit tricky.  I guess he can just give conditional actions based on what it would do in response to any of Marge's actions?<br>
<br>
Still Blaize's turn.
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					<img src="images/sand/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" title="Quote"> Originally Posted by <strong>Bigmac</strong>
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				<div class="message">I guess he can just give conditional actions based on what it would do in response to any of Marge's actions?</div>
			
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</div>That's how I've been running the hawk.
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					<img src="images/sand/icons/icon_scroll.png" alt="Default" title="Default"> Re: Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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					<img src="images/sand/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" title="Quote"> Originally Posted by <strong>Kyeudo</strong>
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				<div class="message"><b><font color="Blue">GM Kyeudo</font></b><br>
You can locate an invisible creature and tell its invisible. You can't spot dirty talons and immediately tell that the talons were poisoned rather than just dipped in stagnant pond water, unless you are under the influence of the Hypercognition power.<br>
<br>
As for the application of poison, I have been unable to find a reference to applying poison that mentions requiring hands, let alone the actual method of application.</div>
			
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Not that it matters, but a successful Spot check would allow Blaize to draw his own conclusion based off of what he sees.  Whether he chooses to act upon it should be his choice.  I'll bet one could assume that since there is no stagnant pond water on the map, and none was taken or purchased by my opponent, that either an illusion was there (unlikely since Blaize's opponent is engaged with the spider) or something is up with those talons.<br>
<br>
Spot allows one to notice such minor differences like seeing the tiny tricks one can do with Sleight of Hand or the like, too.  That was why I was pretty amazed that a high Spot roll didn't alert Blaize to any of this.<br>
<br>
<br>
As for poison application, it is pretty clearly stated as, "smeared" on a weapon.  Not dipped, not touched, not immersed, but "smeared".<br>
<br>
<br>
As for the spider, I am running it based off of this:<br>
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From spider section:<br>
<br>
All monstrous spiders are aggressive predators that use their poisonous bites to subdue or kill prey.<br>
<br>
Monstrous spiders come in two general types: hunters and web-spinners. Hunters rove about, <u>while web-spinners usually attempt to trap prey</u>.<br>
<br>
and...<br>
<br>
Summon Nature's Ally <br>
<br>
This spell summons a natural creature. It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. <u>It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability</u>. <br>
</div>
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<br>
<br>
Also, still waiting on this question from ref:<br>
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How long does it take/what type of action is it for a spider to spin its web?<br>
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<br>
Will post up when get the response.
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							<b>Blaize</b><br>
<br>
couple more questions for refs:<br>
<br>
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Could Blaize see/hear anything prior to his action?  Namely, can he tell where the spider is from his current position?  Last round's 25 Spot revealed nothing to Blaize about Marge, but I want to make sure that Blaize can't see the spider, either before posting actions.  We got a little sidetracked on the Poison spotting is why I asked.<br>
<br>
A couple of things:  <br>
1) Spider (and Marge) are Large, so they are easier to Spot...+4, I believe<br>
2) Max range penalty is -10 (that would be against the wall using the hypotenuse of the triangle), but I doubt it would be there<br>
3) Spider was last seen heading North along the "D-Line", so I would assume it is still there.<br>
4) Spider was last seen in post #58 doing this: "The spider moves north past D/E 16 to"<br>
<br>
From his current location at the start of the round, the 25 Spot should reveal the entire 15 row, the entire 14 row, the entire 13 row freely (no hide), the entire 12 row, A11, B11, and C11, and a bunch of squares North of there (G column 1-8, F column 1-8, E column 1-7, D column 1-7, C column 1-6, B column 1-6, and A column 1-5).<br>
<br>
Even with a huge Hide roll, Blaize should have seen Marge in one of those squares.  Therefore, the spider has to be in view of Blaize somewhere if it is keeping out of Marge's reach (25') since there is only a small window a large creature could be in.<br>
<br>
It is important to know for Blaize's action this round.<br>
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<b>Stat Block</b> for round 5<br>
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Current Location: T15 with scroll (exp. retreat) and dagger in hands<br>
<br>
Spells:<br>
0-level: acid splash(c), resistance, ghost sound, detect magic, daze<br>
1st-level: hail of stone(c), color spray, <strike>color spray</strike>, hail of stone, <strike>shield</strike><br>
<br>
5 abrupt jaunts<br>
6/8 HP, AC 21<br>
Note: hit by drow spider poison...new save needed in 10 rounds<br>
<br>
Spells active: mage armor (1 hourish), shield (17 rounds)<br>
<br>
Large Monstrous Spider: 8 rounds<br>
Current Location: was in D18/E18, but now is 25' away from Marge<br>
<br>
22 HP<br>
14 AC (touch 12, flat 11)<br>
Base Attack/Grapple +3/+9<br>
Bite +4 (1d8+3 plus Fort DC 13 or 1d6 STR)<br>
Web (7 left), tremorsense, vermin, darkvision<br>
Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +1<br>
Str 15, Dex 17, Con 12, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2<br>
<br>
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							ooc:  Even though I haven't gotten answers from yesterday's questions, I am going to post the Spider's actions.<br>
<br>
<br>
<b>Spider Action</b><br>
Since the spider will most likely keep away as best it can from Marge's reach and shoot another web at her...<br>
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I want to remind you that Marge is Large, so -1 Size AC, has had -2 to DEX for size change (another -1 AC) for -2 AC (making my calculation of Marge's AC 13; Touch AC 10).<br>
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Ranged touch web shot: (BAB +3, +3 Dex, -1 Size, -4 Range = +1 Attack)<br>
<span class="diceroll"><b>WebSlinging</b> - (1d20+1)[<b>21</b>]</span><br>
<br>
Spider is not done (depends on roll)<br>
<br>
Edit:  Wow, a crit on a net...will wonders ever cease?  No need to confirm, but Marge is now entangled.  <br>
<br>
(If you hit, the target is entangled. An entangled creature takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty on Dexterity, can move at only half speed, and cannot charge or run.)<br>
<br>
I would guess that the end of the action the spider would be to move in, so Marge will most likely get an attack of opportunity, but remember the -2 to attack.  <br>
<br>
Unless the spider is dead, I would think the spider would want to be right next to Marge so it can get all bitey-fighty, but I do not know where to put it.<br>
<br>
<br>
Edit #2:<br>
<b>Spider Stats:</b><br>
Large Monstrous Spider: 8 rounds<br>
Current Location: next to Marge<br>
<br>
22 HP<br>
14 AC (touch 12, flat 11)<br>
Base Attack/Grapple +3/+9<br>
Bite +4 (1d8+3 plus Fort DC 13 or 1d6 STR)<br>
Web (6 left), tremorsense, vermin, darkvision<br>
Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +1<br>
Str 15, Dex 17, Con 12, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2
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							<b>Blaize</b><br>
<br>
Still waiting on above questions...<br>
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I wanted to know where spider was before it moved in to attack, since I am positive that Blaize would have to had seen where it was with his Spot. <br>
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					<img src="images/sand/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" title="Quote"> Originally Posted by <strong>Darius</strong>
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Also, still waiting on this question from ref:<br>
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How long does it take/what type of action is it for a spider to spin its web?<br>
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Will post up when get the response.</div>
			
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</div><b><font color="Red">Ref Morbius</font></b><br>
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Darius, answer for one of your questions<br>
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If you find a time rule for that feel free to use it, if no we will be entering house rules and we avoid that as much as we can, also if we were to consider that possibility and if I remember correctly a spider takes a matter of hours to spin it's web as a large enough net to use it as a effective trap</div>
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							@Morbius:  <br>
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That is what I figured, too.  I just wanted to make sure the spider was doing what it should, so trapping with its webslinging would be the best method, I would assume.<br>
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@other refs:<br>
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Still need to know if Blaize had seen the location of the spider from his position at t15.  I realize the spider moved this round, but my question was from last round and the Spot was 25 for that round.<br>
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							@refs<div class="spoiler"><div align="left" class="spoiler-title"><b>Spoiler</b></div><div align="right" class="spoiler-select-show" name="spoiler-select">
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<div class="spoiler-body-show" name="spoiler-body">Since the spider did as expected, Marge is now at B9C10.  I believe she missed the first shot and hit the second.  My question about the net-like attack is whether Marge is now tethered to the spider, and if so, is it a 50' or a 20' tether?  Where does the spider end its turn?</div>
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							I am posting here because I am waiting on a question regarding whether or not the spider was seen last round (with my 25 Spot).  Given my current location, I figured Blaize would have seen it last round, but that information was not given to me.  I wanted to let you know I am still around.
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							For refs regarding Spot check/LoS:<br>
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<br>
cutting and pasting from question that was not answered:  <br>
<br>
The key is dealing with post 58's location of the spider...I realize that the spider moved from its position this round, but I am asking about if Blaize saw it last round from t15.  (If you look at post 58, you should be able to tell, I think)<br>
<br>
Could Blaize see/hear anything prior to his action? Namely, can he tell where the spider is from his current position? Last round's 25 Spot revealed nothing to Blaize about Marge, but I want to make sure that Blaize can't see the spider, either before posting actions. We got a little sidetracked on the Poison spotting is why I asked.<br>
<br>
A couple of things: <br>
1) Spider (and Marge) are Large, so they are easier to Spot...+4, I believe<br>
2) Max range penalty is -10 (that would be against the wall using the hypotenuse of the triangle), but I doubt it would be there<br>
3) Spider was last seen heading North along the "D-Line", so I would assume it is still there.<br>
4) Spider was last seen in post #58 doing this: "The spider moves north past D/E 16 to"<br>
<br>
From his current location at the start of the round, the 25 Spot should reveal the entire 15 row, the entire 14 row, the entire 13 row freely (no hide), the entire 12 row, A11, B11, and C11, and a bunch of squares North of there (G column 1-8, F column 1-8, E column 1-7, D column 1-7, C column 1-6, B column 1-6, and A column 1-5).<br>
<br>
Even with a huge Hide roll, Blaize should have seen Marge in one of those squares. Therefore, the spider has to be in view of Blaize somewhere if it is keeping out of Marge's reach (25') since there is only a small window a large creature could be in.<br>
<br>
It is important to know for Blaize's action this round.<br>
<br>
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							This is strange...it seems that we are in a state of limbo and the judges are not answering my 3rd LoS call.<br>
<br>
Maurkov, since you know where the spider was last turn, perhaps you can help me out...<br>
<br>
I am going to reveal Blaize's position just to get things going.  Last round, Blaize moved to t15.  (That was the spot where Blaize got hit by Marge's hawk).  Blaize made a Spot roll of 25.  From t15, could he see the spider before before the spider webbed Marge and moved in? <br>
<br>
Spider was last seen in post #58 doing this: "The spider moves north past D/E 16 to"<br>
<br>
From his current location at the start of the round, the 25 Spot should reveal the entire 15 row, the entire 14 row, the entire 13 row freely (no hide), the entire 12 row, A11, B11, and C11, and a bunch of squares North of there (G column 1-8, F column 1-8, E column 1-7, D column 1-7, C column 1-6, B column 1-6, and A column 1-5).<br>
<br>
If you could tell me where it was from Blaize's vantage point before it moved in, I could get his action underway.
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							T15 from U16?  I've got to stop thinking that the altitude lines mean anything.  From there you would have seen a the spider in D13-E14.  As it prepared to fire another web it was attacked (missed) and attacked again (hit).  It fired the a web, then scuttled forward to D11-E12.<br>
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That's not official; I'm going off the actions you described for the spider.
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							ooc:  Wow...two attacks?  I am going to guess readied an action...well played.  At any rate, thanks for the information, Maurkov - now we can get on with the action <img src="images/smilies/smallstick/smallbiggrin.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Small Big Grin" class="inlineimg"> <br>
<br>
<b>Blaize</b>  Round 5a<br>
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5' step (no action) to t14, drop dagger (free), command the power of his arcanist's gloves to raise a 1st level spell up to 4th level when cast this round(swift), and begin casting <i>hail of stone</i> (full round).<br>
<br>
Just a reminder about the spider...spider has entangled Marge, and moved in to right next to her.  The underlined section below indicates something that I would think the spider would do now that it has her trapped.<br>
<br>
An entangled creature takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty on Dexterity, can move at only half speed, and cannot charge or run. If you control the trailing rope by succeeding on an opposed Strength check while holding it, <u>the entangled creature can move only within the limits that the rope allows</u>. If the entangled creature attempts to cast a spell, it must make a DC 15 Concentration check or be unable to cast the spell.<br>
<br>
<u>Also, I would assume it would 'reel' in its web when it came closer to her, so Marge wouldn't be able to get beyond that 'next to' limit.</u>  I am not sure if Marge would see that or not - so I will let a judge decide.<br>
<br>
Altered to reflect Large Spider statistical information:<br>
An entangled creature can escape with a <b>DC 13 </b>Escape Artist check (a full-round action). The web has <b>12 hit points </b>and can be burst with a <b>DC 17 Strength </b>check (also a full-round action).<br>
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<br>
Done...no attack of opportunity, either.<br>
<br>
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Current Location: T14 with scroll (exp. retreat) in hand (other hand free for casting) <br>
dagger dropped in T14<br>
<br>
Spells:<br>
0-level: acid splash(c), resistance, ghost sound, detect magic, daze<br>
1st-level: hail of stone(c), color spray, <strike>color spray, hail of stone, shield</strike><br>
<br>
5 abrupt jaunts<br>
6/8 HP, AC 21<br>
Note: hit by drow spider poison...new save needed in 10 rounds<br>
<br>
Spells active: mage armor (1 hourish), shield (17 rounds)<br>
1 more use of arcanist's gloves<br>
<br>
<br>
Also, the spider was apparently hit, but this is the stats for it:<br>
<br>
Spider Stats:<br>
Large Monstrous Spider: 8 rounds<br>
Current Location: last seen D11/E12<br>
<br>
22 HP (minus whatever the damage that was done)<br>
14 AC (touch 12, flat 11)<br>
Base Attack/Grapple +3/+9<br>
Bite +4 (1d8+3 plus Fort DC 13 or 1d6 STR)<br>
Web (6 left), tremorsense, vermin, darkvision<br>
Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +1<br>
Str 15, Dex 17, Con 12, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2<br>
<br>
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							<b><font color="Red">Ref Morbius</font></b><br>
<br>
Maurkov<br>
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<div class="spoiler-body-show" name="spoiler-body"> I am not sure of where you are :P but as the spider approaches you it reels its web to avoid you from moving away<br>
and just a reminder that you are entangled and take a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty on Dexterity, can move at only half speed, and cannot charge or run and must make a DC 15 Concentration check to be able to cast a spell. You can escape the web by a DC 13 Escape Artist or DC 17 str check<br>
Both are standard actions bwt.<br>
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Darius<br>
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You are quoting a net, escaping a web is a standard action</div>
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							<b><font color="DarkRed">High Ref Bronz</font></b><br>
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@Maurkov, Morbius, and other M's<br>
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<div class="spoiler-body-show" name="spoiler-body"><br>
Actually, in order for the spider to prevent movement, and opposed strength check is needed by both, otherwise the "rope limit" effect is null and void.<br>
<br>
This is a reactive roll and therefore requires no action.<br>
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					<img src="images/sand/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" title="Quote"> Originally Posted by <strong>Bronz</strong>
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				<div class="message"><b><font color="DarkRed">High Ref Bronz</font></b><br>
<br>
@Maurkov, Morbius, and other M's<br>
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Actually, in order for the spider to prevent movement, and opposed strength check is needed by both, otherwise the "rope limit" effect is null and void.<br>
<br>
This is a reactive roll and therefore requires no action.<br>
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</div><b><font color="Red">Ref Morbius</font></b><br>
<br>
Bronz and other refs<br>
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<div class="spoiler-body-show" name="spoiler-body"> I though this only would happen when Maurkov tried to move, also I think Maurkov needs a listen check no? I forgot to add this to the spoiler</div>
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							<b>Marge</b> Round 5<br>
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<div class="spoiler-body-show" name="spoiler-body">The spider gets to reel-in as a free action?  Yikes, I'd like a second opinion.  Meanwhile<br>
<br>
Reactive sense checks<br>
Marge: spot <span class="diceroll">(1d20+3)[<b>16</b>]</span> listen [roll]1d20)[/roll]<br>
Hawk: spot <span class="diceroll">(1d20+16)[<b>24</b>]</span> listen <span class="diceroll">(1d20+4)[<b>20</b>]</span><br>
<br>
If possible, the hawk will continue the attack <span class="diceroll">(1d20+6)[<b>9</b>]</span> damage <span class="diceroll">(1d4-2)[<b>-1</b>]</span> min 1. <br>
<br>
Status<br>
Marge B9-C10 HP 7/16 AC 11 Expeditious Retreat [5] Enlarge Person [17] Entangled [until she gets around to doing something about that]<br>
Hawk T15-&gt;??? HP 8/8 <b>AC 18</b> (on the sheet I missed the +1 NA that a familiar gets)</div>
</div> Not done.
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							<b>Marge</b> Round 5b<br>
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Fixing a roll<div class="spoiler"><div align="left" class="spoiler-title"><b>Spoiler</b></div><div align="right" class="spoiler-select-show" name="spoiler-select">
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<div class="spoiler-body-show" name="spoiler-body">listen<span class="diceroll">(1d20)[<b>9</b>]</span></div>
</div>Sorry for the dp.
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							@Morbius (and any other refs if they so choose)<br>
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You are correct...standard action it is.  I cut and pasted the part under net.  Here is the spider text:<br>
<br>
<i>Web-spinners can throw a web eight times per day. This is <u>similar to an attack with a net </u>but has a maximum range of 50 feet, with a range increment of 10 feet, and is effective against targets up to one size category larger than the spider.<br>
<br>
An entangled creature can escape with a successful Escape Artist check or burst it with a Strength check. <b>Both are standard actions </b>whose DCs are given in the table below. The check DCs are Constitution-based, and the Strength check DC includes a +4 racial bonus.</i><br>
<br>
However, I would assume that an AoO would be in order if this distracting act were attempted none the less, correct?  (I say this because Sundering an object held would qualify and using a skill that takes an action usually provokes an attack of opportunity according to the chart).<br>
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					<img src="images/sand/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" title="Quote"> Originally Posted by <strong>Darius</strong>
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				<div class="message">@Morbius (and any other refs if they so choose)<br>
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You are correct...standard action it is.  I cut and pasted the part under net.  Here is the spider text:<br>
<br>
<i>Web-spinners can throw a web eight times per day. This is <u>similar to an attack with a net </u>but has a maximum range of 50 feet, with a range increment of 10 feet, and is effective against targets up to one size category larger than the spider.<br>
<br>
An entangled creature can escape with a successful Escape Artist check or burst it with a Strength check. <b>Both are standard actions </b>whose DCs are given in the table below. The check DCs are Constitution-based, and the Strength check DC includes a +4 racial bonus.</i><br>
<br>
However, I would assume that an AoO would be in order if this distracting act were attempted none the less, correct?  (I say this because Sundering an object held would qualify and using a skill that takes an action usually provokes an attack of opportunity according to the chart).<br>
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</div><b><font color="Red">Ref Morbius</font></b><br>
<br>
there we go... again.<br>
<br>
The SDR says that escaping from a net provokes an AoO really, and the text for the web says that it works as a net, so as it does not change anything like it did with the action required to escape I would say it still provokes an AoO.<br>
<br>
Also <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Smashing an Object</a> is acomplished by the sunder attack according to the SDR( causes AoO).<br>
<br>
However there is no indication that Breaking it by a str check causes an AoO.
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					<img src="images/sand/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" title="Quote"> Originally Posted by <strong>Morbius</strong>
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				<div class="message"><b><font color="Red">Ref Morbius</font></b><br>
However there is no indication that Breaking it by a str check causes an AoO.</div>
			
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</div>Along those lines, there is not any indication that it doesn't cause an AoO, either, right?  Just like it doesn't say anything in the text of the net about escaping provokes an attack of opportunity...but it says in the other section as you pointed out.<br>
<br>
I would think going all hulkified on the web would provoke the attack as it would constitute a situation where one would let her guard down.<br>
<br>
From SRD under AoO:<br>
<i>Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free. These free attacks are called attacks of opportunity.</i><br>
<br>
It continues...<br>
<i><b>Performing a Distracting Act:</b> Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Table: Actions in Combat notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity</i>.<br>
<br>
The table lists a number of things, however making a STR check to break something is not specifically listed.  As I pointed out in the spoiler, the closest thing I saw was sundering an object.  When one looks down the table further, one may note actions like move a heavy object, sheathe a weapon, pick up an item and so on all provoke attacks of opportunity.  That is why I would think trying to rip the webs off by hand (a STR check) would equate to that same distracting act that would provoke an AoO.<br>
<br>
<br>
At any rate, I do not know if it is my turn or not.  I have been waiting for the "done" signal from Maurkov (whose last post was yesterday when he fixed a roll).
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							<b><font color="Blue">GM Kyeudo</font></b><br>
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In the RAW, any time an action does not specify if it provokes an AoO, we will assume that it does not provoke AoOs. Otherwise breathing provokes AoOs.
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					<img src="images/sand/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" title="Quote"> Originally Posted by <strong>Kyeudo</strong>
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				<div class="message"><b><font color="Blue">GM Kyeudo</font></b><br>
<br>
In the RAW, any time an action does not specify if it provokes an AoO, we will assume that it does not provoke AoOs. Otherwise breathing provokes AoOs.</div>
			
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</div>Very well...Darius is 0/17 on his queries.  Law of Averages says I have to be able to get one right...right?  <img src="images/smilies/smallstick/smallbiggrin.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Small Big Grin" class="inlineimg"> <br>
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@Maurkov:  I feel your pain.
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<div class="spoiler-body-show" name="spoiler-body">So no empathic signal from the hawk?  No sounds of fighting?  If that's really the case, she'll shout, "Have you lost track of him?" if not, "are you near him?" and if so, "make some noise."</div>
</div><br>
<br>
<b>Marge</b> Round 5c<br>
<br>
Marge attempts something that will force an opposed STR check with the spider:<br>
<span class="diceroll">(1d20+2)[<b>10</b>]</span><br>
<br>
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<div class="spoiler-body-show" name="spoiler-body">Marge will attempt to withdraw from the spider, and so snap the thread that binds them together.  She withdraws to L4-N5, though if she spots Blaize before she gets there, she might revise.<br>
<br>
Marge's reactive sense checks for the round were Spot 16 and listen 9.<br>
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</div>Refcheck, please
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				Barbarian in the Playground
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					<img src="images/sand/icons/icon_scroll.png" alt="Default" title="Default"> Re: Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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						<blockquote class="postcontent restore ">
							<b><font color="Red">Ref Morbius</font></b><br>
<br>
<br>
Maurkov<br>
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I am sorry you hawk was supposed to send you any empathic signal? I must have missed that in the constant nonsense being discussed here regularly What was it?<br>
<br>
And BTW I don't think that the sound of a hawk using it's claws at someone is enough to be considered battle sound. Your "make some noise" order however is another question </div>
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							ooc:<br>
<br>
for refs:<br>
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It has been established that...<br>
<br>
An entangled creature takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty on Dexterity, can move at only half speed, and cannot charge or run. If you control the trailing rope by succeeding on an opposed Strength check while holding it, the entangled creature can move only within the limits that the rope allows. If the entangled creature attempts to cast a spell, it must make a DC 15 Concentration check or be unable to cast the spell.<br>
<br>
An entangled creature can escape with a DC 13 Escape Artist check (a standard action). The web has 12 hit points and can be burst with a DC 17 Strength check (also a standard action).<br>
<br>
Since Marge's action is an opposed STR check, I am going to assume that she is moving away.  I don't know if she is Tumbling or not, but it doesn't appear that she is trying to bust the web since it is an opposed check.  She could be withdrawing, too (that is a full-round action with no 5' step).  Either way...<br>
<br>
Also, I want to remind you that the spider reeled in the rope as it approached to be right next to Marge...so even if she succeeds on the STR check, the spider will be dragged right along with her. <br>
</div>
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<br>
Opposed STR check for spider <span class="diceroll">(1d20+2)[<b>21</b>]</span><br>
<br>
I am assuming that you are moving, then.  So, I will make the AoO as well.<br>
<br>
<span class="diceroll"><b>AoO</b> - (1d20+4)[<b>13</b>]</span><br>
<span class="diceroll"><b>Damage</b> - (1d8+3)[<b>4</b>]</span> if hit (Fort DC or <span class="diceroll"><b>STR</b> - (1d6)[<b>4</b>]</span> poison drain)<br>
<br>
for refs again<br>
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I want to remind the refs that Marge's AC is 4 worse than before...(-1 size, -1 DEX from size, and -2 for entagled Dex penalty)<br>
</div>
</div><br>
<br>
Spider Stats:<br>
Large Monstrous Spider: 8 rounds<br>
Current Location: last seen D11/E12<br>
<br>
22 HP (minus whatever the damage that was done)<br>
14 AC (touch 12, flat 11)<br>
Base Attack/Grapple +3/+9<br>
Bite +4 (1d8+3 plus Fort DC 13 or 1d6 STR)<br>
Web (6 left), tremorsense, vermin, darkvision<br>
Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +1<br>
Str 15, Dex 17, Con 12, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2
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							Marge didn't do anything that would trigger an AoO.  She tried to leave a threatened square, but failed.  Your turn.
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					<img src="images/sand/icons/icon_scroll.png" alt="Default" title="Default"> Re: Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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							<b>Blaize </b>  6a<br>
<br>
Immediately before the start of round 6, Blaize gauges the distance between his position and where he figures Marge to be located behind the wall.  He holds out his hand and blows on a jade chip that flares to life with a green flame.  Suddenly, a 5' radius cylinder of stones rains down, centered on b9/c9 and b10/c10.  The hail of stones does <span class="diceroll"><b>damage</b> - (4d4)[<b>7</b>]</span> to all in that area (no save). <br>
<br>
Not done.<br>
<br>
ooc: <br>
I hope my game of Battleship is on the mark.  I figure that Marge tumbled and ran to either a8 or a9/b9 (60' of move total from c19) based on the spider's position before it was stabbed, but I could be wrong.  To have been stabbed - Marge would have to be in either b10 or c10, so this should hit both possibilities without hitting the spider' last position.<br>
<br>
<b>Stat Block</b><br>
<div class="spoiler"><div align="left" class="spoiler-title"><b>Spoiler</b></div><div align="right" class="spoiler-select-show" name="spoiler-select">
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Current Location: T14 with scroll (exp. retreat) in hand (other hand free for casting) <br>
dagger dropped in T14<br>
<br>
Spells:<br>
0-level: acid splash(c), resistance, ghost sound, detect magic, daze<br>
1st-level: hail of stone(c), color spray, <strike>color spray, hail of stone, shield</strike><br>
<br>
5 abrupt jaunts<br>
6/8 HP, AC 21<br>
Note: hit by drow spider poison...new save needed in 9 rounds<br>
<br>
Spells active: mage armor (1 hourish), shield (16 rounds)<br>
1 more use of arcanist's gloves<br>
<br>
<br>
Also, the spider was apparently hit, but this is the stats for it:<br>
<br>
Spider Stats:<br>
Large Monstrous Spider: 7 rounds<br>
Current Location: last seen D11/E12<br>
<br>
22 HP (minus whatever the damage that was done)<br>
14 AC (touch 12, flat 11)<br>
Base Attack/Grapple +3/+9<br>
Bite +4 (1d8+3 plus Fort DC 13 or 1d6 STR)<br>
Web (6 left), tremorsense, vermin, darkvision<br>
Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +1<br>
Str 15, Dex 17, Con 12, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2<br>
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					<img src="images/sand/icons/icon_scroll.png" alt="Default" title="Default"> Re: Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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							<b>Spider </b>round 6b<br>
<br>
The Large Monstrous spider then presses the advantage and bites at Marge.<br>
<br>
<span class="diceroll"><b>Attack</b> - (1d20+4)[<b>11</b>]</span><br>
<span class="diceroll"><b>Damage</b> - (1d8+3)[<b>4</b>]</span> + Fort DC 13 or <span class="diceroll"><b>STR</b> - (1d6)[<b>3</b>]</span> drain<br>
<br>
Not done<br>
<br>
<b>Spider Stats:</b><br>
Large Monstrous Spider: 7 rounds<br>
Current Location: last seen D11/E12<br>
<br>
22 HP (minus whatever the damage that was done)<br>
14 AC (touch 12, flat 11)<br>
Base Attack/Grapple +3/+9<br>
Bite +4 (1d8+3 plus Fort DC 13 or 1d6 STR)<br>
Web (6 left), tremorsense, vermin, darkvision<br>
Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +1<br>
Str 15, Dex 17, Con 12, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2
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					<img src="images/sand/icons/icon_scroll.png" alt="Default" title="Default"> Re: Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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							<b>Blaize</b> 6c<br>
<br>
Blaize <span class="diceroll"><b>Listens</b> - (1d20+5)[<b>11</b>]</span> for any give-away sounds that would indicate he hit his mark and/or if Marge fell (crowd noise/applause/cheers).  <br>
<br>
ooc:  I am not sure if the <i>hail of stones </i>hit, but if they did, the spider bite would have put Marge into negatives since Marge's height dropped her AC 2 (-1 for size, -1 for DEX drop) and the web dropped it another 2 (-4 DEX for entangled) - giving her an AC of 11.
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					<img src="images/sand/icons/icon_scroll.png" alt="Default" title="Default"> Re: Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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							I'm not familiar with the spell, so a ref will have to adjudicate whether you have line of effect and if there's anything that might prevent it from leaving Marge staggered.  The spider's attack is a hit.  save:<span class="diceroll">(1d20+2)[<b>14</b>]</span><br>
<br>
Edit:  I should have had a ref roll the spider's str check, the results of which were ooc knowledge.
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							Pages 108-109 from <u>Spell Compendium</u>:<br>
<br>
<b>Hail of Stone</b><br>
Conjuration (Creation)[Earth]<br>
<b>Level:</b> Sorcerer/Wizard 1<br>
<b>Components:</b> V, S, M<br>
<b>Casting Time:</b> 1 round<br>
<b>Range:</b> Medium (100 ft. + 10ft/lvl)<br>
<b>Area:</b> Cylinder (5-ft. radius, 40 ft high)<br>
<b>Duration:</b> Instantaneous<br>
<b>Saving Throw:</b> None<br>
<b>Spell Resistance:</b> No<br>
<br>
<i>You hold the jade chip before you and blow on it as you end the spell.  The chip flares with a green flame and vanishes as rocks begin to fall on your pursuers.</i><br>
<br>
You create a rain of stones that deals 1d4 points of damage per caster level (maximum 5d4) to creatures and objects within the area.<br>
<br>
<i>Material Component:</i> A piece of jade worth at least 5 gp.<br>
<br>
<br>
Since the Area is a Cylinder, LoE to the point of origin (the top of the cylinder) is sufficient.<br>
<br>
<b>From SRD:</b> <br>
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				You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast. A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst’s center point, a cone-shaped burst’s starting point, a cylinder’s circle, or an emanation’s point of origin).
			
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</div>So, since Blaize's current position allows him to see a point 40' above those squares, it should work.<br>
<br>
<br>
FYI:  Blaize used his Arcanist's gloves to boost the spell up 2 caster levels (reason for the 4d4 instead of 2d4).
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							I believe the rock pillars go floor to ceiling.<br>
<br>
Edit: My mistake.  Did I mention I hate this map?
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					<img src="images/sand/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" title="Quote"> Originally Posted by <strong>Maurkov</strong>
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				<div class="message">I believe the rock pillars go floor to ceiling.</div>
			
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</div>Nope...15' (it is in the Map section of the Waiting Room)<br>
<br>
Edit to add Copied Text:<br>
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				The Arena walls for this map are 30 ft high, with a Climb DC of 30. The pillars are 15 feet tall with a Climb DC of 15.
			
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</div>Edit #2<br>
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				<div class="bbcode_postedby">
					<img src="images/sand/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" title="Quote"> Originally Posted by <strong>Maurkov</strong>
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				<div class="message">Edit: My mistake.  Did I mention I hate this map?</div>
			
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</div>I have only played on this one and one other thus far.  My first match was in the Parthenon or whatever that one is.  The rest have been in here.  I have grown to like it only because it is the only map I know.<br>
<br>
<br>
Edit #3<br>
<br>
I put in another call for a ref, FYI.
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					<img src="images/sand/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" title="Quote"> Originally Posted by <strong>Maurkov</strong>
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				<div class="message">Edit:  I should have had a ref roll the spider's str check, the results of which were ooc knowledge.</div>
			
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</div>I was committed to the spell regardless since it was a full round action, so it wouldn't matter too much, I don't think.<br>
<br>
<br>
Edit:  I am beginning to think I should change my Character Profile to "Skip".
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					<img src="images/sand/icons/icon_scroll.png" alt="Default" title="Default"> Re: Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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							Looks like the match is over, but I did have on question.  I'm not sure how targeting a spell 40ft off the floor works (well in this case I can see how the hail stones would fall to the ground, but in general).  If someone can point (or repoint if they already posted it) showing me how that all works, I'll be glad to call this match.  We'll now have 3 lvl3 characters waiting for the first 3rd level round.
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							It would work like this (as posted above):<br>
<br>
Since the Area is a Cylinder, LoE to the point of origin (the top of the cylinder) is sufficient.<br>
<br>
From SRD: <br>
<br>
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				:<br>
You must have a clear line of effect to the <u>point of origin </u>of any spell you cast. A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst’s center point, a cone-shaped burst’s starting point, a cylinder’s circle, or an emanation’s point of origin).
			
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</div>So, since Blaize's current position allows him to see a <u>point 40' </u>above those squares, it should work.<br>
<br>
Below is a side-view of the arena to show to help explain:<br>
<br>
M=Marge<br>
W=Wall<br>
B=Blaize<br>
*=Point of Origin<br>
<br>
<br>
-*<br>
-<br>
-.......W<br>
-M.....W<br>
_M___W_______________________________B_______<br>
<br>
As you can see, Blaize can see that point (*) above Marge and uses that to be the point of origin for his spell, dropping the stones on Marge.
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							Yes, the targetting works.  Darius should have quoted the next para:<br>
<br>
<div style="margin-left:40px">"When casting a cylinder-shaped spell, you select the spell’s point of origin. This point is the center of a horizontal circle, and the spell shoots down from the circle, filling a cylinder."</div><br>
I'm going to crack open the spoilers to see if there's any salvation there.<br>
<br>
Edit: I don't see any bad calls, just plenty of bad luck.  gg.
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					<img src="images/sand/icons/icon_scroll.png" alt="Default" title="Default"> Re: Arena Tournament, Round 13 Finals: Blaize vs. Marge
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							Since it looks done, I will wait for confirmation before I look in the spoilers (just in case).  However, I take it that Marge was in the area of the spell?  Looking at my own graph paper map of the arena, I put Marge in b9/b10 or b9/c10 or c9/c10 or c9/d10 &lt;--as a maybe.  I wanted to see if I was on the mark or not.<br>
<br>
The big part of the match for me was getting those listen rolls early on when Marge enlarged.  I knew I had to press the attack then.  Last time we met, Marge hadn't enlarged, so I was pretty fortunate.  20' reach for the win vs. color spray = victory.<br>
<br>
That poison had me, too.  I thought Marge had put the poison on her spear and not her familiar.  That was an awesome play, and my save was very lucky.  One roll here or there and the result would have been Marge at the top tier, not Blaize.  I totally blew the familiar off as an after thought, but then soon found out that it was tougher than Blaize was (much to my chagrin).  <br>
<br>
Great game.  I do NOT look forward to our next match, for I fear my luck will soon run out.  My hat is off to your build and great play.
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							<b><font color="darkorange">Ref Terran</font></b><br>
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<b>Blaize is declared the winner and gains the spoils</b>
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