 Hey, and welcome to the Vergecast from CES in beautiful downtown Las Vegas, Nevada. We're in Vegas, where it's not CES day one, it's CES day zero. And we're now officially really for real with no technical problems starting our nightly cast, Vergecast. Are we on the air? Are we good? Somebody just kept saying, I don't know, there's spammers. Okay. Anyhow, so we're in Vegas. We're in Las Vegas. Is there another Vegas that you know of? Is there like a, is like a San Vegas? El Vegas. El Vegas. San Vegas. We're in, we're in Las Vegas, beautiful downtown Las Vegas. We're really right on the strip here. If right on the strip is at the convention center. It's not. Under the monorail. Under a monorail. At the convention center under a monorail. In a parking lot. It's like an Anthony Kiedis poet, some Anthony Kiedis poetry. It's like a sequel to Under the Bridge. Under the monorail. Under the monorail. Anyhow, but it's, it's, we've been through like kind of two days of coverage. Yeah. Today was the first day. Today was the first real day of. Like stuff started like seven days ago. Major keynote addresses and press events. We did like Sony, Samsung, Microsoft, Nokia. I started at Visio. Visio. Yeah. One of these things is not like the other. No, not at all. One of these is slowly becoming like. One set is an interaction. It's true. Actually, wait. Did you know what I said earlier about Visio? I didn't introduce myself. Oh yeah, right. I'm Josh Topolsky. I'm Paul Miller. Neil Apatow. That's my favorite part. I mean, you know, why, you're not watching this if you don't know who we are. I'm just saying. Who are we? Who are you? Who are you? That's the question you need to answer. You know what I really regret about last night most of all? You know what we should do? Is that amazing conversation we had about Alf. It's true. We had the most amazing dissection of what the real meaning of Alf. Yeah, and it ended with can you toilet train a chick kitten, I believe. Yeah. Let's just say that you figure out how we got to can you toilet train a chicken. Email to podcast at the word. We'll pick the best solution. I think we hit every possible angle of, we were on every side of anything you could ever talk about. You know what it was? We were so raring to go, like coverage at CS, like just dissecting, analyzing, contextualizing. Yeah. Alf was just like a raw meat. How did Alf even come up? Oh, you were, how did he come up? I don't remember. Maker's mark? You were the only guy drinking. Anyhow. I brought it up. So here's the thing. So we're doing the first, this is the first Vergecast tonight, the CS podcast slash recap. And I asked Robert Scoble if he would come over at some point to just do an interview or whatever. And he said he was going to come over, like I think he wants to come over late at night. So I said, hey, we're going to start at 10 or 10 30 and we usually go about an hour. So it's possible. And I don't know if it's going to happen. It's Scoble. If you're watching now, feel free to just come on over. Do you think that if anyone's broadcasting anything on the internet, they can address Scoble and he'll hear it? I think that Scoble is, has like, he's like the architect. Scoble's like the architect in the matrix. And he has a room full of TV. He actually does have a room full of TV. He does have a room full of TV. He follows like 500,000 people on Twitter and he actually reads each tweet. That's what's so amazing. And if the Scoble may like come over here later, I'm hoping we can have a drink together. Oh God. That'll be a private. That's a private. I guess we won't be getting in here. Anyhow. So a lot of stuff happened at CS already. We had some major stuff. Microsoft did its final keynote tonight, which I, Paul and I live blogged. Man. Which, you know, I'd love to say, oh my God, there's so much stuff to unpack from that keynote. But the only thing that I can unpack right now is that I'm happy they're not doing any more CS. Well, no, you know, it's funny because I read your coverage of Microsoft and I know you guys were half reading our stuff at Sony. Sony. Sony, because Sony was equally. Sony was the opposite. No, but Sony was the opposite. And there's news, which is the big difference. Well, yeah. Right. It was still a ridiculous spectacle. Yeah, and that's the thing. Like Samsung, Sony, all these press conferences, they are ridiculous. They are stupid. But at the same time, those companies show up with new products. And Microsoft just doesn't think it's necessary that it shares any news with us. They don't really seem to understand that there is nothing more boring to a group of people who live and breathe technology than to tell them about everything they already know about Microsoft. I mean. But they were demoing the Kinect. It's galling. It's galling. I mean, they released a new dashboard for Xbox in October and they're talking about it in January at CES. Like what? That's like me. That's like me showing you a shirt that I bought in 1987 that you've seen me wear 10 times. Like, hey, check out the shirt. But like in like a special presentation. Can we turn this into a race car analogy? That's like me lapis-carrying. When I'm behind you when I've already won the race. That's just rude. It's like you're in a race car and I'm in a boat. Think about it. I'm going. But the crazy thing is the only solid news that came out, and I'm excited about this, but you know, Kinect for Windows, February 1st. And they have like a commercial. But that's like, they're news. They have a commercial for it with an awesome version of, an orchestral version of Where's My Mind by the Pixies. That's pretty good. Yeah. Isn't that the same band that did all the social network stuff? What are you talking about? Trent Reznor? You mean Trent Reznor? No, but do you remember the trailer for the social network? Oh, those angelic people? No, no, no. That was like, that was a choir. Oh, don't get me started on choirs. Don't even talk to me about it. Microsoft had a choir of a tweet choir. Yeah, a gospel choir singing the tweets that people were writing about Microsoft. Who was arranging them? They were. The choir were arranging it. Spontaneously. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But just imagine that. Imagine the lamest tweets in the world and then imagine having those sung by a gospel choir and then put that choir in a room full of nerds. While Ryan Seacrest and Steve Ballmer were in the dark watching. That's the piece of all this that you're missing. Oh yeah, right. I forgot to mention Ryan Seacrest hosted with Steve Ballmer their final keynote. It was the worst, most upsetting robotic scripted conversations. Ryan Seacrest was like, but Windows 8 has really surged in market share. That doesn't make any sense because Windows 8 is out. But he was saying stuff that Ryan Seacrest could never possibly think of. But the DLLs in the latest version of Windows have been greatly reduced. Because a lot of times when you trot out a celebrity they make jokes. They're like the comic relief while you have the other people do jokes. Well he was making jokes. He was making it kind of like newsy. He was making jokes too. But then Ballmer was also trying to one up him on the jokes. I know we didn't want to start with Microsoft but I feel like it's freshest in my mind. No. Well it's funny because you can, I'm just contrasting this with Sony. Sony brought out Will Smith and the director of Men in Black 3 to promote Men in Black 3. Who is it? Barry Sonnefeld. Barry Sonnefeld. Yeah. And they had a bit for them to do which was about Sony's cameras. And so Barry Sonnefeld was sitting there being like, yeah you know every night after we directed the movie I would come home and Will Smith would call me and be like, do you think they can put an AFS-X sensor in the next 7? No. And I was like, Sir Howard can do it. And Will Smith was like standing behind me like, yeah that's what I was doing. I did that. So your Will Smith approach is just really aggressive. But that's like kind of what he was doing. He was just like bored and like hopping around. You mean he was like, he went out into the audience? No he was just kind of bouncing around this little area of the stage they were in. Was he actually behind you? No, no, no. He was like 3 feet away. Oh behind him. He was behind Barry Sonnefeld. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I did see some shots from it and so Neil I went and covered the Sony event. There's nothing else to say about Microsoft though is there? No. It's their final keynote. At the beginning it sounded like it was just a pause. So Gary Shapiro, the president of CEA was like, we wish Microsoft the best on this pause on their keynote. It's like, I bet this won't be the last. Yeah it was like, we think we'll see you back here. It was like weirdly, it was like one part threatening. It's like I dare you to never come back. It's like you broke up with somebody and they were so distraught that they vacillated between telling you that you've made the biggest mistake of your life and you'll be back and also saying that they didn't need you anymore and that they're happy to see you go and that they should stay friends. I mean like have you listened to any number of Kelly Clarkson songs? Well Kelly Clarkson, I was going to bring it back to Sony. Kelly Clarkson was also at Sony. Which was extremely strange. You went to cover Sony. I like how we're just talking about celebrities and weird stuff and we haven't said a word about the actual. I have a whole list of athletes. I know you do. Yeah, say the word. But Sony was a big event, Will Smith, Kelly Clarkson, Barry Sonnenfeld and of course Sir Howard Stringer. Sir Howard Stringer is amazing. He's my favorite person in the world. I'd like to get Sir Howard Stringer and Rupert Murdoch at like a breakfast together. I don't think, but see I don't think Rupert is like funny. Like Stringer is hilarious. No but they seem like two old, very rich, very white dudes. Well I mean. They seem like two masters of the universe types. Sir Howard had two. I don't mean in the cool he-man way. Two moments during the keynote that were just like outstanding Sir Howard moments. One was he introduced something that was boring. Some 3D TV thing. Oh and he got like. And no one clapped. Yeah. And then he came out to the center of the stage and went, oh come on. And then everyone started clapping. Really? At the very end. I like that. I respect that. And at the very end he goes, Sony is the company that invents the future. That makes you say wow. But I never say wow. Whatever. You know he never said wow. Imagine he's like sitting at home and there's a fireworks display. You know on his estate probably that he paid for. Yeah he's like wow. Shot me. Wow. This is how I view like his relationship with other executives at Sony. That they walk into a room and try to fire him. He's like oh come on. He's like get out of here. All right. All right. Wait. They try to fire Stringer? Yeah all the time. Because he's. I mean. There's no idea what's going on. He's done nothing for this company. He's like no come now. Come on. Let's have some tea. I just like doing this accent. His third one. I'm sure our British writers right now are like throwing up all over the trailer. And his third one was he introduced. He was showing a slide of the 3D viewer. The personal viewer. The view master. Yeah. The big thing. The HMDZ one. It's not a view master. And he goes that's my personal favorite. So let's talk about. So Sony actually had product. Sony had a lot of news. Let's talk about their announcements. From best to worst. From best to worst. I think the Xperia Arc S. The Arc S is their. It's their European version of the phone. It's their. Is that the one that's the white and the black and the. The clear thing. Yeah. That's clear. Yeah. It's like a 4.6 inch 720p display. It's the Galaxy Nexus. Galaxy Nexus. It's running their scan. Their scan is like whatever. I think it's just a beautiful piece of design. Is it running ICS? It looks so good. No. It's 2.3. I mean just. It looks great. And the really awesome thing about it. I will never touch another Android phone that isn't running. So if you look at photos of it. It's like you know a big chunk of phone and then like a clear plastic strip and then it's embedded in it. And that clear plastic strip is the antenna. But it's clear. And if you look at it really closely you can see the mesh in it. This is like some X-Men stuff. It's awesome. It's like nerdy. It's not that awesome. Does that thing morph into other shapes? No. Can it morph into a knife? And the thing about it is it has the Android button. Remember having the Morphine by the way? Remember when Morphine was hot stuff? It was one Michael Jackson video. Black or white. Yeah. But black or white everybody was like Morphine. Everyone's going to do Morphine. Everybody's going to be Morphine in the future. And then that was it. Not Morphine. I mean Morphine became. What was it? Did you say animal Morphs? What was that one? Animorphs. Animorphs. Animorphs. Animorphs. It's not as good as Morphine anymore. It's just something that. It's just a regular part of life. Absorbed into pop culture. It's just totally absorbed so that Morphine is not special. By the way, that's my quote if you ask. Morphine is not special. Okay, so. This is the Xperia S. Is that how we're showing it to the viewer? I guess. Don't do that. That's low budget. That's low budget unlike this production which is extremely high budget. Well I want to show you something. See these? Yeah. Those aren't actually buttons. It's super annoying. They're labels for the buttons that are slightly above. No. Oh yeah. So it's like really. We'll add this to the broadcast so you can see it later. So that piece is the antenna and it lights up and the things look like buttons. So I want to describe what Neelai is showing. There's a strip at the bottom of the phone and it's got a back home and is that a search button? A menu. A menu button. But they're not actually buttons. They're meant to show you the buttons above them. Yeah, you can see the little dot above them. That's the button. That's the capacitive button. That's the worst. So that's really annoying. Is that the future proof of for ice cream sandwich or just because they're stupid? No, they're like labeled on there. Are you sure those aren't buttons? I'm 100% sure they're not buttons. Okay. I tried to push them many, many times. Okay, so this is the Ark. This is the Ion. No, the Ark S. Ark S. Do you think that's the coolest? I think it's the European. It's better designed than the Ion, which is the US version. The Ion is the AT&T LTE. Yeah. And that's 4.3 720p and it's just a much more boring phone. It's very boring. It looks like a black slab phone. It's a black slab. I mean it's. It runs 2.3 as well. Yep. I would just. If I saw that in person, I would spit on it. It does have a 12 megapixel camera. And all the PR people kept on doing this annoying game in the booth where whenever you try to take a picture with it, they're like, let's have a race. I don't want to have a race. No, no, no. Race is my camera. What kind of phone do you have? Were they all British? Yeah. Go on. Race it. I dare you. The one I was talking about. The one I was talking about was British. Howard Stringer was a good booth. You would go up to the booth and there would be like a regular woman there and then you go to get your camera. You go to get your camera. When you came back, Howard Stringer was sitting there. Yes, what would you like to look at? Are you interested in this phone? Yeah, you would say let's have a race because they kept on saying it. If I said wow, that would be my reaction to this device. Anyhow, I shouldn't be doing that. So they're very proud of the camera. Yeah. Well, how is it? How's it look? It's fine. Because like I will say this. It's no shutter. I will say this. The thing that I miss the most about using an iPhone is the iPhone 4S is the camera. Because it's a good camera. It's a very good camera. It's a completely beautiful, wonderful camera that you could use for real camera, for real picture taking. And, you know, the one on the Galaxy Nexus is like every once in a while I get a shot and I'm like this camera is actually not too bad. And then 99 other shots are terrible. So I miss it. Not enough to not have fun using it. Well, I mean Sony is really bushing it. And, you know, the other big story with these phones we just talked about is that they're Sony phones. They're not Sony Ericsson phones. Yeah, which looks awesome. I don't know what it is like in my head because I grew up in the 80s. It's because we grew up in the golden age of Sony. Yeah, in the 80s when Sony was the brand. And when I see that Sony logo on something I'm like, oh, that's good. I got to get one of those. It's a weird psychology thing that is somehow still effective. It truly is an aspirational brand. Yeah. I mean for people who were raised in the 80s. Well, you know what's weird is they said it on stage. Not for new people. New people don't care about it. They said, you know, we're buying. We bought out Ericsson. And we're going to be, we're Sony now. The phones we've branded Sony. This is the prelude to a huge push into North America for us. So they actually felt. I guess Nokia had been having a lot of meals together. Well, Nokia didn't like buy out the other half of its company. It's because they weren't really into North America before. They were just like. Well, they were during like the feature phone era. We don't need it. We don't need North America. Yeah. I just like. I've seen like, because we heard this again, you know, like Nokia said 100,000 times like, yeah, we're totally really pushing into the America now. You know, like this, now we're really going to get our smartphones into America. Like for five or six years they've been saying that. No, but it's clear that they recognize that they have failed at trying to do it. Yeah. And they continue to recognize. And that's an important step. No, but they have a whole. I guess Sony has. In Nokia's defense. Well, I guess it's the same thing. But they have a whole new platform, right? Right. But Sony's been selling phones here for the last couple of years. Android phones. Right. I mean, when's the last. When did the first Xperia come out that was running Android? Oh, two years ago. Something like that. Yeah. And what, the X10? Yeah. Is that what it was? X10. It probably wasn't two years ago. Chris Ziegler were here, you could tell us. If only. If only we could get ahold of him. I'm not. Chris. Ziegler. They say 2009 in chat. 2009. Okay, that's good. That's good. That's a long time ago. Those guys are basically like Chris Ziegler. Chris, you've been replaced by Ustream chat. Yeah, we're now crowdsourcing all of your encyclopedic knowledge of telephones. It's going to be like a dig. It's going to be like a dig. When did the Xperia X10 come out? The what? Xperia X10. When did they come out? December of 2000 something. Oh, that's helpful. Get out. Get out of the trailer. Owned by Ustream. Just keep walking. I'm tired. Just keep walking until you get to parent international. Take a plane out of the country. I'm done with this. Because it's a good thing. It's a good thing. It's a good thing. It's a good thing. It's a good thing. It's a good thing. It's a good thing. It's a good thing. Now, they're saying end of 2010. Don't listen to those people. They don't know what they're talking about. You can't crowdsource this kind of information just using Ustream. You have to create an entire site that's kind of like a dig. Now, they're saying it's 2012. You have to create a dig. Yesterday. A dig for Xperia information. Yeah. Dig Xperia. Dig Xperia. Yeah. So, got like two items on site. Yeah, yeah. Those power through these. So let's talk about some more of these phones. You want to talk about, you want to do big bucket topics? I think we should do buckets. OK, so we had a debate. I'm going to talk to some camera here. There was a debate between Paul and Neal I about whether we should do trends or products. No, it wasn't a debate. They didn't really discuss it, and that's why we're sitting here talking about it right now. No, I think we should do buckets. Yeah. OK, go ahead. I think we agreed. Go ahead. So yeah. No, well, Nokia N900, kind of a big deal. Yeah, I mean, it's a big version of the N800, and it has LTE. Is it kind of a big deal? I mean, it's a big deal in the sense that they already released what is essentially functionally the same phone here in America. And they're releasing the Lumia 800 unlocked, right? I mean, I don't want to poopoo what Microsoft's doing because I like it. But it's also like, you've seen one, you've seen them all. It was so weird because Ballmer was like, yeah, we've got the N800. Oh, we're bringing the 710 to T-Mobile, the first Windows phone in the same series. Yeah. You know what I find? And then he was like, oh, and we're selling the N800 unlocked in our stores. And there's more and more of those stores. And then like, oh, and the N900 is the first real. Here's what I think is so offensive. Elop kept saying, this is the first real Windows phone. He said it a number of times, first real Windows phone. I feel like that's like, basically, Sarah Palin is talking about the real America. Well, you know, the funny thing. It's not a thing that exists. Like, it's not real. It isn't the first real Windows phone because they are all exactly functionally the same. Earlier today, HTC announced the Titan 2 with LTE. Like, along with them, right. And then Balmer had to go and talk about the Titan. But he was also saying, Elop, when Elop was like, this is the first real Windows phone. The other thing they do that I think is odd. And by the way, I think it's going to be a nice device. And I think the Lumia 800 is a really nice looking device. And the N9, which we have here, which I've been playing around with, is the same device, essentially. I also think it's really cool. But the polycarbonate stuff and the design is really, really tight. I want all of my phones. I think they're right on with that stuff. But they keep doing this thing where they're talking about how it's got Nokia stuff, Nokia DNA. But it doesn't, really. It has Nokia Drive, which is an app. And then that's it. It's not like it uses a Nokia font or it has a special. Does it have a special Nokia color? It trades on the decades of Nokia experience in the mobile. Yeah, but it doesn't. They just put a Windows phone on a Windows phone. The software that they made after those decades. They quite literally threw out Nokia software. Without Nokia's decades of experience with Symbian, they would not have failed hard enough to have to use Windows. And then they literally put Windows phone on the N9, which is a phone they already had made. They already made that phone as a different kind of phone. It's almost less the first Windows. Here's what I'll say, though. Because I know that, by the way, and I think that I've noticed a sentiment amongst some commenters that they think that we're anti, that we're not going to give Microsoft a fair shake or whatever. But honestly, if you sat through tonight's presentation, you might not give Microsoft a fair shake either. Because it was excruciating. But I like Windows phone. I think it's really strong. There are things that bug the hell out of me about it. Like the way that it still doesn't feel like the multitasking is really fluid. And notifications. You always feel like you're reloading apps. Still, I feel like they haven't got the freeze drying right yet. There's other little things I could talk about. But I think the effort is very strong. Yeah, they're pushing it really hard. And I think that it's a beautiful interface. And they're trying to do some new things. And I think, taken to their logical conclusion, they're going to be amazing. I think it's really telling that there are no HTC Android phones here. As far as I can tell. Well, not yet. No, I don't think there's going to be any. I mean, is it telling or are they just waiting for Mobile World Congress where they're going to release probably 100 different Android phones? Maybe, but HTC does carrier-specific phones. Yeah, I think they put a lot of focus on Mobile World Congress. I just want to take a quick break. It is outrageously hot in here. Is there anything that can be done about that? We could have it on window. Yeah. Do you want to do that? I mean, that would be a start. It is probably, I don't know, 500 degrees in this room. Oh, man. Is that going to be a problem with our audio? It's good. OK, good. Great. Thank you, Chad. No, I mean, maybe we'll see some stuff tomorrow. But if you think about it, Samsung put out a bunch of phones today. Sony. So since we're on the phone trend, what are the other devices? We talked about the Sonys. Galaxy Note for AT&T. Well, we didn't really talk about the Sonys. We touched on some. Yeah, go ahead. Galaxy Note. Galaxy Note, which we've seen. The Skyrocket. By the way, can I say something? I went to this Live Vlog Samsung today, too. They introduced the Galaxy Note, and they actually said, this is the first pen that really replicates, quote, the tactile artistry of pen and paper. I'll say something about it. Are you crazy? It's plastic on glass. No matter what you do, it's plastic on glass. This is like Samsung. This is like when Samsung introduced the Galaxy Nexus in Hong Kong, and they were like, it's so the curves. What do they say? It's like the feathers of a fairy floating through a magical forest. It was like some weird flowery wording that didn't make any sense. It's like they had a blank spot in their announcement, and they outsourced that paragraph. Like, say something superlative about this. They didn't even tell you what it was. Yeah, like mechanical turntable. It was like a mad lip. It was a mad lip. You know, the tagline for the Galaxy Note on AT&T is, feel free, it's Galaxy Note, which makes no sense. Feel free. Feel free. That is the tagline for a tampon. Feel free, it's Galaxy Note. That's like, don't be constrained by your monthly visitor. Wow. The Galaxy Note. Oh, dude. You're a monthly visitor? No, have you ever seen tampon commercials? They don't talk about it like it's the 40s. Yeah, they do. Yes, they do. You need to watch more TV. I don't watch enough. No, that's it. They say stuff like, feel free. I don't know. I will say the font choice is very similar to what I would expect from that type of product. I mean, I think the Galaxy Note is for women who are having their period. That's what we've come to. And it's officially 11 PM at CS, day zero. Oh, my gosh. I think I'm getting some sort of heat. Can you get some sort of traumatic brain damage from too much heat? Can you talk about tampons too much when your brain gets too hot? Is it possible that you bring up tampons inexplicably during a conversation about gadgets if you're really hot? All right, go ahead. Have there been any phones announced with a carrier that are running Ice Cream Sandwich? No. But all of them are promising. It's going to happen. Yeah, don't worry, guys. We're working on the update. Yeah. My grandfather, I was saying. I will say the Transformer Prime. He's getting it. I never know what it was. No, I'll never know. Somewhere out there. Right now, the Transformer Prime is getting it. He's getting the Ice Cream Sandwich update. It's cool. It has it. It has it now? Transformer Prime, you heard it here first. Get it. Give it to me. What's the point? Maybe we can get a little airflow if you want to try that. I'm willing to try it. Go in and out of this room a bunch. My grandfather was saying it was crap. Well, he didn't say crap. But crap in one hand, wish in the other, see which fills up faster. That's terrible. You know what I'm saying? About the Ice Cream Sandwich update. When I think about it really hard, I kind of do know what you're saying. It kind of all goes back to the tampon ads, OK? I'm very confused about that. Don't worry about it. Take that. So yeah, because Mobile World Congress is so close, this isn't the huge phone show. No, last year there were lots of phones at the show. HTC had phones. Verizon did the Droid 4. I mean, there have been phones at the show. The Motorola Razr Max happened today. There are phones all over the place. And HTC put out one. It's Windows Phone. It's not Android. I think it's notable in its way. Here it is, everybody. It's what you've been waiting for. Can we get that? Can we get a shot of that? Where am I? Now this is in low budget? Well. You got fingerprints everywhere? Well, I should have cleaned it off. Look at this. Look at these fonts. It's a. Yeah, I have no idea what you're saying. What about that camera? No, he's not moving that camera. Oh. Can you believe it? Can you believe this is happening? Let's take a look at the clock. Look at that. And let's go back here. Now let's open the browser. Where's the browser? Just open the browser like so. So on that, does it still look and feel honeycomb-ish? Just going to go to this Yoda. Well, that's the thing. They didn't change the tablet. Hands-on of a Yoda. You know, that was the other thing about the Galaxy Note stuff was. Scrolling. Samsung did the 7.7. The Galaxy had a 7.7 on Verizon today as well. And they were like, you don't have to pick. You can pick the Galaxy 7.7 or the Galaxy Note. And one's five inches and one's 7.7. They're basically the same size. They're not basically the same size. Side by side, they are so close. You can put a note in your pocket. You can't put it in. I hope you're not using any of this footage right now. Giant pockets. OK, there we go. I can put a note in my pocket. Zoom right in on Yoda. I have pretty big pockets. I don't know. I don't know what's going on with this weird. I've been experimenting with baggy pants. This is kind of my new thing. How's this going over here? We went too far with the high-tops. What's happening? Are you just pointing his back at him? This is terrible. I don't know what's going on with this here. Anyhow. That's great. It's great. It's great. There you go. It's got ice cream sandwich. It's amazing. All right, what else? Is that it for the phones? I mean, that's most of the phones. Unless you want to talk about the Motorola stuff. Yeah, Razer Max, the Droid 4. The Droid Razer 4. The Droid 4. The Razer Droid. The Razer Max. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I got confused. The Razer Max. The Razer Max 2Xs. And the 2Xs. And the Droid 4. How could I possibly confuse those? Because Motorola's never named stuff similar to other stuff. I mean, I have to say those are the worst names. And if you're a Razer customer, you have to be so mad. Do you remember the comic book The Max? The comic book? Yeah. The Max? Yeah. Isn't that where they went and saved by the bell? Or is that just Max's? I'll bet you $100 on that. $100 somebody right now is in our Ustream talking about how much they love it. Oh my god. It's like this big purple. Yeah, purple dude. Yeah. Anyhow, that's what I thought of when I saw the name. All right. Let's talk about, do you want to talk about computers? Do you want to talk about smart TVs? Let's talk about, oh god, smart TVs. Let's talk about Ultrabooks. This has been, I think we can agree on one thing. Ultrabooks, Ultrabooks, Ultrabooks. Ultrabooks. Ultrabooks, Ultrabooks, Ultrabooks. Intel said they had like 70. 75. 75 in the pipeline. And it actually showed off, did you see this concept? We should run this video. Is that the Nekiski? Is that what it's called? Yeah, the Nekiski. Nekiski. Chad, can we run the Nekiski video? It is really cool. Don't push. Let's not test the limits here. I know. You said it was a crate. Here, let me, I got this down. I know what we're doing. Me and Crate have a plan. I know how to hold the thing. Just be quiet. If this even runs, let's see. You should rotate. Rotate. I'm just commanding you. Rotate again. That's whatever you say. Whatever you say, any line. Spit on the screen. Enhance. Engage. Is this working? Do you see what's happening here? So this is, what is this, flip over? What is this? It's got like a full width. The whole palm rest is a see-through touchpad. And then when you close up your computer, you can see through the back. And this is a concept car. It is. But the weird thing is that Intel's running around saying, this thing on top that looks exactly like Windows 8, that looks like Metro, is not Windows 8. It's not Metro. This is Windows 7. And we came up with this idea a year ago. They invented. We invented Metro. They invented Metro. A year ago. Works different. It's not Microsoft. It's weird. Even though it looks like it would be perfect for Windows. They do claim they're working with a manufacturer on this. They just want to save the money. Yeah, it's going to be like Acer or Asus, just like with the Iconia thing with the two screens. Oh, so this is like Intel's idea, and then they're trying to get somebody to build it. No, they're not. It always sucks. Look at that. And then what you always wanted to do with your laptop is close it. I want one of these. And have that little screen full of stuff. You know what? This makes zero sense. You know what? I'm sorry. This is the Intel Long Phone. I don't have widgets in my life. And this is the long Intel phone. The black, what is it called? The Blackthorn? The Blackthorn? The Super Tramp? The Super Tramp? What was it called? What was the long phone called? Let's get Chris to the end. That was the Silverthorn? No. No, those are all processors. You're just naming it. No, no, no. It was in that era, the Ivy, the Silverbridge. What was the phone, the prototype called? They didn't have a name for the prototype. It was to show off those processors, which was the, was it the Silverthorn? Is that even a real thing? No, the Silverthorn was an Atom. This was like three years ago. If you're trying to ask me to remember an Intel Atom. All I'm saying is this is a slightly different version of that, which is a thing that will never come to market. No, I'm convinced. Last year they had the two screen thing. And they got, I think it was Acer to build it. No, Toshiba, right? No, it was Acer. Acer or Asus built it. I can't remember which one. Somebody built it, and it was horrible. They used a laptop with the two screens? I think it was Acer. Yeah. I think it was Toshiba. They built it. It was bad. They didn't sell any. And they stopped making them. No, that's what happened, as far as I know. All right, so what else in Ultrabooks? Toshiba. Toshiba? Bam. Sorry. You know what? I'm not right a lot. You know, I don't remember things very often. Did Toshiba release some Ultrabooks? No, Vizio released some Ultrabooks. Well, why did you say Toshiba? No, we were talking about the dual screen thing. I said Toshiba. Oh, god. I completely had no idea what you were talking about. Vizio. Vizio. So I saw the Vizio stuff today. Really, they're beautiful machines. They're made of aluminum. They're really proud of, like, I think Microsoft helped them a lot. Yeah. So it's really stopped Windows. Yeah, I think Microsoft is excited. It is still hot as hell in here. Yeah. I mean, I'm dying. Yeah. So then Microsoft helped them a lot. So that means they're enemies with Intel, so they won't use the Ultrabook work. Now open a door out there. And then walk away. Walk out the door. Yeah. Did you open the door? You should. Go ahead. Microsoft held them a lot with it. This is seriously sexy. Let me show it to you. The Vizio? Yeah. It's really nice looking. It looks really good. It has this insane keyboard, which I don't understand. Do you want to do a trick? This keyboard, I tried to use it. So what's weird about it is. Oh, it's one of these keyboards. Yeah, these are terrible. No, but the keys are huge. You don't kind of know where the edges are. And they promised me. I talked to their CTO, and he was like, we're doing all kinds of testing on it. We want users to like it. But their big thing is that the PC is still like a central part of home entertainment. And they're a massive TV manufacturer. So they're like, in order to grow, we have to do PCs. Just to make control the end to end. I got to say, we've been talking about this a little bit. Every time there's a new smart TV that comes out that you can update your Facebook from. It's like, you know how I do that? I have a computer on my lap while I watch TV. And actually, so the laptops, they know that people use them on the couch. They want to turn them off. So they have a dedicated button that just shuts off the screen. I know that I'm going to get hell for saying this, but it just looks kind of like a Mac. It does look like a Mac. I mean, it just looks like a unibody Air. Right. I mean, it's a little bit different. It's got a lot less than a lot of these Ultrabooks. I got to say, there's no dip down for the keyboard. The keys look different. The speaker is in a different spot. The bezel looks about the same. No, the bezel's different than the MacBook Air. Relatively similar. It is a nice looking piece of kit for. And I'm sure it'll be cheap. And it's going to have Intel processors. You know what's really weird about these is that. Oh, and it's got a high res 13 inch. And a lot of these have the. Yeah, 1600 by 900. Oh, it does? Yeah, this has 1600 by 900. This could be my Ubuntu machine. So it's really crazy that Vizio refuses to call them laptops. Yeah, buddy tops. Bud tops. Bro tops. And when you put them together, it makes the full Vizio logo. Yes. Yes. Weird. Only weird because you weren't involved in the bro tops. Though you did partially invent the name bro tops. Bro tops are like a new kind of shoe gone. You're usually desperately trying to make a point. I'm desperately trying to make a point. They don't call them Ultrabooks. They're really anti-Ultrabooks. They're calling them thin and lights. Thin and lights. We want to use the name that nobody cares about and didn't take off. They're like, consumers don't know what an Ultrabook is. Consumers don't know what a thin and light is. Intel's spending like a billion dollars trying to teach people what an Ultrabook is. Ultrabook does sound pretty expensive. And also, Vizio just writes its own script as far as, it just decides what it wants to put in Walmart, and the price it thinks it can sell them at. And then it sells that. And what did I say today about Vizio at Walmart? What? That Vizio at Walmart is like Sony was at every retailer in the 80s. You didn't say that to me. No, I did. You weren't listening. But Vizio at Walmart is the high end. Vizio at Walmart is now the high end brand. I think Sony at Walmart is the high end brand. Do they actually sell Sony at Walmart? They do. Oh, really? Probably a crappy Sony. Yeah, it's not a quality. That's the thing is like, if you go to Walmart, Walmart pretty much has a ceiling on the price of something it would sell. I mean, they sell Xenos, right? They sell Westinghouse TV. So you can get low end versions of the high end brand. I can buy an audio box and get your TV there. You can get the super nice Vizio. So you could go to Walmart and get a horrible HP laptop. Or for the same price, you get this super sexy Vizio. So here's the thing about the Vizio, because they're really proud of how closely they work with Microsoft and Intel. What's the price? They're not saying yet. But they say that the Windows build is really stripped down. They're saying they didn't add a bunch of junk to it. No crapware? It's basically a clean Windows build. So it's going to be expensive. I don't know. But their Vizio. Their tablet is super cheap. The tablet's $299. And they claim to me, I'm shaky on this. They claim to me that people are buying the Kindle Fire. They're not liking it. They're giving it back. They're seeing the Vizio tablet. That's a lie. That's a lie. That's a lie. I mean, no offense to Vizio, but that's a lie. They're not going to go return the Fire and go, I'm going to get a Vizio tablet instead. They're going to return the Fire and go, I'll wait two or three months and save my pennies. And buy an iPad. And go get an iPad. They say they're sold out. They're very high on their tablet stuff. Well, I mean, maybe they only made 100. But you know, the other thing they said to me. That's truth. That's basically what I said to you. They only sell them at one store. Walmart, though, which is a big store to sell them at. No, but like one Walmart. But a really big Walmart. Yeah. Like a super Walmart. It covers all of Montana. What are they called? Super Walmart. Super Walmart. Yeah. Now, if you sold one tablet per Walmart, you'd have a pretty good Android tablet. You'd sell. That would be. You would. He's going to sell 5,000 tablets. That would be 800,000. The Samsung would be like, how'd you do that? Go on. Of all of our podcasts, this is the most directionless. Even though we have the most direction. I know. We have so much direction. You know what they said to me? We saw the Vizio phone last year. And I was like, what happened to your phone? Yeah, what happened to the phone? And they're like, we moved all the engineers off it to do Ultrabooks. We think Ultrabooks are more important. Which I think is like. That sounds like a lie. I think it's just too hard to do a phone. I've now used Vizio of lying twice, by the way. Like just flat out saying they're not telling the truth. Well, I don't think it's a lie. I think it's much easier to make a Windows laptop and sell it at Walmart than make a phone. You don't have to sell it through Verizon. The one thing I'll say about CES, even after a few days here, even before the show officially starts, you do get pretty numb to the things that people tell you. And you do get pretty, there's a lot of incredulity, if you will, about the things people tell you. No, I think there's a certain amount of truth to what they're saying. I think it's kind of crazy. Not the Kindle thing. No, the Kindle thing, I do not believe it all. That's a blatant lie. But I think there's a certain amount of truth to it's hard to make a phone. And if you're a company like Vizio, No, that's why HB said, that's why Meg Whitman was like, we're not gonna make phones. It's really hard. She said it's really hard to make a phone. It does say something about carriers. It's carriers. A company like Vizio, which owns the TV market, they were not able to get a foot in the door with any of the carriers. And nobody's gonna tell them no on TVs. And nobody's gonna tell them, they're like, screw it, make Ultrabooks. Sam Walton might. Yeah, he started Walmart. Yeah. But a company like Vizio should. I know your history. I've heard of the Waltons. You know your history. I know all about them. They also have some desktop PCs, which is like whatever. Yeah, I know those. But the design is also nice on those. They are. But it's also very highly derivative of them. What other Ultrabook? I'm sorry, Joanna, I don't really care about these Samsungs very much. Oh, which ones? Samsungs or the? I mean, she really likes them, the new Series 9, or no, the Series 5 Ultrabooks from Samsung. But this Spectre looks pretty awesome. The Spectre looks okay. It looks a little bit over-designed to me, like a lot of HP stuff. Like there's too much going on. There's a lot of ridges and bumps. Yeah, there's like. I like the lid though, even though the lid's made of glass. It's terrifying. It's got the Beats knob, plus, plus, plus for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And Gorilla Glass. I like having a physical knob. The tactility of the knob. The Beats knob. Yeah, you know what would be awesome if that Beats knob was a scroll wheel? Yeah. That would be not useful. Didn't, wasn't there a Sony laptop that had a little scroll wheel, like a jog dial? Yeah. No, because Sony was big on the jog dials. They could have a Blackberry. With the clear. But this is like the peak of Sony. Yeah. Like right when they thought they could do whatever they wanted. Yeah. Like jog dials. Hey, you remember the Blackjack? Everything gets a jog dial. And it's like, pew. It's like Sony's at the cliff, man. Jog dial killed Sony. Yeah. Feature, feature idea. How the jog dial killed Sony. Do you remember the Blackjack? Yeah. Had a wheel. Oh man, that was great. Laura had a Blackjack and she loved, she was like really into the wheel functionality. It's actually a good idea on a phone. One of the days. You know, it's actually a really good idea to be able to scroll. Yeah. They should put strips. They still had a D-pad. They should put strips on the side of the phone so you can scroll things. Yeah. What, like you had that idea? No, well I. You made that face like, that's what I've been saying. Like 100 years ago, I went to a synaptics demo where it was a phone, I had the back touch pad. Now on the Vita, I said it would be great for gaming. Now on the Vita, just saying, just saying. Profit Paul Miller. And it had capacitive strips on the sides. But that doesn't appear anywhere. No. So it looks like you're prophesied it wasn't that great, wasn't it? Well I didn't say that. Well I'm saying it now. Synaptics, I hope you're listening. Synaptics. Finally, something to do with those side things. Jog dials in all your track pads from now on. Touch jog. Touch. Touch jog, that's what you should be called. Touch jog? Touch jog. Jog touch. Jog touch. Come on. Jog touch is good too. Jog touch is good. Great work, really nicely done. Your mic, get back here. Go, print that. We could go right now. We could cut a deal with Synaptics. No, that's the thing about CES that you don't understand. We could cut a deal with Synaptics right now. We could go to an OEM. We could say we want to put this into a phone. Open up a booth. We could cut a deal with an OEM. We could go get customized skin, Android skin, from somebody doing a custom distro that's just like a reference design. And by the end of the show, those could be getting distributed through a chain of small retail. Spring availability. Available in the coming year. Q3 2012. We're hoping for back to school. That's the optimistic chip. We'll be in channel by the holidays with that product. What are we going to call it? So it's got jog touch. That's one feature. Runs Android. I'd like it to run Android 4.0. Do you think we can make that happen? All the tablets are running Android 4.0. But if you look at, maybe if you're trying to go for being a major, you gotta go for 2.3. You're right. 2.3.4. Yeah, whatever. 2.3.4. But we're working with Google on 4.0. Yeah, we're gonna work with Google on 4.0. Google is on tap. Right. Yeah. By Q4, we'll have a plan in place. Could it integrate with an announcement? Somebody's smart TVs. Oh no, it absolutely has to. No, of course. It integrates with everybody's smart TVs. It's got apps. We're unbiased. We're willing to play with everybody. It should be called Neutral Tech. Should be our company. You know, that's the word Ubuntu uses. Neutral Tech? No, they say their Ubuntu TV is the neutral player. Yeah. There's Apple and Ubuntu. Oh, so it'll be an Ubuntu phone. So, how does having a product... Well, it'll integrate with Ubuntu TV. Well, it'll integrate with Ubuntu TV. But that's it. Thus relegating ourselves to niche status forever. Neutral Tech's a total disparity. Exclusive jog touch technology. Right. Now, we have to tell a grander lie than Ubuntu. You wanna slide out QWERTY? Or are you saving that for your other... I feel like a slide out QWERTY is gonna be more complicated to produce. You guys are leading me, by the way. You're leading me into the smart TV remote conversation. I'm fairly sure that doing a slide will be a lot easier. If I can take this mess and crystallize it into the news, then I will be a king. What kind of display are we putting on the jog touch device? AMOLED. King. Super AMOLED. Can we do super AMOLED? Yeah, I think you can source it, right? What is AMOLED? What's that really weird? What kind of display is this? Are you getting kind of a... Are you getting kind of a reverberation? It's something that I... It's all... What do they call it? What does Nokia call their display? Nokia, what do they call their display? True black. Clear black. Clear black. Is that their... What do we do? Sure black. Sure black. Sure black display. It's super multi-touch. Sure black display. Yeah. Super multi-touch. Yeah. Six fingers. I think you should just go super touch. Super touch. Sure black. Sure black display. Sure black super touch. By the way, that should be like our character. 720P+. Yeah. What's the camera? Oh, the camera is... The camera has to be like five megapixels. No. It is five megapixels. But it's incredibly wide angle. It's very wide angle. It makes the wide angle camera on the Lumia 900 look like a regular angle. Could you screw up the lens and maybe swap lenses? Actually, what would be cool is if you could maybe push and get the lens to stick out a little bit, get a little more depth of field on it. No? Okay. I don't want it to be a joke phone. Yeah, you're right. This is serious. Yeah. Everything we've talked about so far is totally serious. That's one topo for the line. All right. So what's the retailing for? $199. On contract. Of course. No, no. We can't announce pricing. Are you kidding? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll determine pricing later on in the year. It'll be priced competitively. Yeah. No, no, no. Price competitively. Yeah. No, yeah, no. That's Vizio's line, actually. We're well aware of the current market. We're aware of the market, and we want to compete. Yeah. But we only say that answer in response to, will it be cheaper than the iPhone? Because that's the only time anybody says that. They say it'll be priced competitively. We want to be attractive to more markets than just the premium. What material is it made out of? What color? Is it metal? Is it a hybrid of aluminum and polycarbonate? Can that be done? Aluma carbonate. Aluma carbonate. Aluma carbonate. Yeah. No, it'll have the sides, it'll be stainless, not stainless, aluminum with a PVC. Well, you've got to be jog touch. You've got to be jog touch compliant. Oh, right, right, right. That's right. I know. We'll figure it out. We'll get to that later. We should get back on the news. Though I have no doubt that this is more entertaining than what we're going to talk about next. Smart TVs. Because it's going to be smart TVs. Go ahead. Smart TVs. Smart TVs are a burden to carry. I will learn about them all. Smart TVs. Vizio. Vizio had one. Samsung. They're doing Google TV. That was the most interesting smart TV we saw so far. The LG Lenovo. Lenovo. Lenovo. Lenovo, who doesn't make TVs until today. It's a year of branching out. It's a 40-inch. No. 55. No, is it? It's 55. 55-inch TV. Running full honeycomb. Running ice cream sandwich. No, it's running ice cream sandwich. Running ice cream sandwich. No, it's running ice cream sandwich. It's running ice cream sandwich. It also has Android Market. Yeah. And will run Android apps. Yeah. I mean, they all will. Again, you could do this on a TV, but carriers aren't going to let you do this. Right. Like, Lenovo can take the time to completely skin ice cream sandwich and put it on a TV, but no carrier can ship an ice cream sandwich phone. You know what I think is interesting about Lenovo? Outside of Brightbox. I think the thing that is interesting about Vizio, too, is that they're all trying to be these complete players now. Yeah. So Lenovo knows they have to have a TV to complete the story of their product. Yeah, they're trying to make this ecosystem. Vizio knows it has to have a computer in the mix. Yeah. Because people watch things on computers. Right. They know they have to have a tablet. Actually, Vizio put a new tablet today, too. Do we really think that people are Vizio buyers are going to go, like, I'm going to get the Vizio computer now? I think people who buy a Vizio TV and they walk into a store. You just walk into Walmart and then you see that thing. Yeah. And it's cheap and it looks good. You just want to get it. Mm-hmm. And, you know, Vizio stuff actually looks pretty good. I mean, the tablet is much better than the tablet I think we saw last year. I think Vizio is really like a Hyundai. Like they did come into the market with a really pretty horrible reputation and they were the budget crappy manufacturer. And they're never going to be, like, the ultimate premier reviewed thing. Well, enough time. Or at least not yet. But they're doing the most work of all the... Like they're doing the most ecosystem platform work. So like they, you know, when you have a bunch of Vizio stuff, you can shoot content all over the place. Right. Using what? They build a bunch of stuff on top of DLNA. Vizio share. It's like DLNA. Yeah. But they built stuff on top of it so it's like all on the discover. Which you have to do to make DLNA at all usable. Yeah. They made it usable. They're probably using... But Samsung does the same thing with all share, like they do this thing. They're probably using Qualcomm's open source ad hoc peer to peer sharing. Did somebody... All join. All join. I'm not kidding. It's real. Yeah. All join. Yeah. We were at Qualcomm. You'll see some stuff. We have some great stuff on that. Tomorrow we did some video Qualcomm. Yeah. But... What happened to Y Diet? Didn't Intel have an announcement? It had some like really cheap new way for TVs to integrate Y Diet? I didn't hear about that. Yeah. There was something. Yeah. But like I haven't heard any... I mean we probably... How many posts did we cover today on the site? I don't know. Do you know why I don't know? Well, over 100 I'm sure. We had so many... We pegged at 99. We pegged at 99 and broke it. I don't think we knew that... We went too fast. I mean just... It needs to get a plus on it. Yeah. 99 plus. And it could be well better than... I'd like the real number. So would I but you know what? Crap on one hand, wish on the other, see which fills up faster. It's gonna be the wishes. Yeah. My wishes are weighty. So, no, we don't need to dive into that. We don't need to go there. We can talk about smart TVs. Let's go. So anyhow, so the Lenovo I think it's really interesting. Yeah. It's a really interesting company. Yeah. It's not a Google TV though. Well, the apps are gonna be the Google TV apps. I mean... Are they? Maybe you can just play Dead Space on it. Maybe. Well, is it the whole idea that going for Google TV is like... Google decided it wanted to unify Android, right? Yeah. It has one Android and it looks different on different devices. Yeah, but Google TV is still on Honeycomb. Like what... What they're working on. What the Lenovo thing is with Ice Cream Sandwich is like it's not Google TV, but it's gonna run these Honeycomb apps that were built for television. It's Lenovo's... Because running smartphone apps on TV is like not a good idea. It's Lenovo's Kindle Fire TV. It's a very strange... Do you think Amazon will make a TV? Of these Google TVs, is there any standout between them? Well, let me keep going because I think what's interesting about all of this is that Sony did Google TVs last year, these integrated Google TVs. Right. They totally backed off. They're not doing them anymore. They're just building little boxes, like streamer boxes on Google TV. Samsung today announced their crazy smart TV that isn't Google, running their own platform. And one of the pieces they announced was you can upgrade the processor of this TV. So they showed a video where it said the word is dual core and then like there's animation and then it said quad core. That's just marketing. No, no. There's a slot in the TV and you can buy a kit. It's like core two, core three to four. They were totally vague about this. No, they were absolutely 100% vague about this. TV overclockers. They're like there's a slot, you can plug it in and you upgrade the TV. And I was like, well, you showed a video where you went from dual core to quad core and they're like, well, I have more information later. But you definitely showed a video where you went from dual core to quad core. I just don't understand why. Because they think that people don't want to buy a new TV. That is true. That's why it's all going to go to your subsidy model. There's an aspect of that because every time Toshiba normally refreshes its TVs mostly at IFA, every time it's like because Toshiba has a similar cell, like the cell technology that Sony used for the PS3. Like they're always iterating that and adding more cells and then they can do some fancy new thing. So it kind of makes sense. I mean it's like a really good solution for that. But is the problem that we're working off of a model for this stuff that like is no longer makes any sense? Like the two year contract, essentially like, you know, I'm just thinking about the two year contract with phones. Like clearly that doesn't work because they're innovating at a rate, I mean if we believe they're innovating, they're innovating at a rate way faster than every two years. And it would seem the TV technology is doing something similar in the sense that they're offering more and more every few months like there's some new, I mean don't you feel like It sounds to me that Sony's making the right choice. Yeah, I mean they're smart stuff. Out of the TV and sell it separately, hopefully competitive price. I think the Roku is probably the best. Here's what I'm most excited about here so far. It's that HDMI dongle that's like Android. It's not HDMI though, it's MHL, which is a different thing. But it plugs into an HDMI, which is a different type of HDMI port, is it not? No, it's MHL, it's a different thing. Isn't there one that's an HDMI? The little dongle that runs Android. The dongle that runs Android. It's powered by the port, then it's MHL. So there's a new port called MHL, Mobile High Speed Link. Well it looks like an HDMI port, but it has power. Let's forget about that stuff for a second. The Roku also has this, it's the same thing. I think the TV box on a stick idea is brilliant. And I think that is really exciting because then it's like, maybe the display technology is going to be updated, but if all of your processing power is happening there, that changes everything because it's how much is it going to be. A Roku box is $79. I'll happily upgrade that every six months. I mean it's expensive, but it's not as expensive as buying a $2,000 TV. There's also processing that happens that's not just a UI and an OS for interactive and smart TV features. There's also processing that the TV does for actual display. And that seems like what Samsung was talking about. No, Samsung is like this whole, their video about, they call it smart evolution. They put smart in everything now. Yeah, actually this TV they announced is pretty insane. So it has a camera, it has motion control, it listens to your voice. LG also is doing motion control. Yeah, but Samsung is like way, I mean they're all trying to do it. Everybody's doing motion control now. I mean look, here's what's happening, and I was actually talking to Chris Grant who is swatting. Watering around here somewhere. It's like this entire industry is crazy about what Apple is going to do. And they are throwing all these ideas at the wall about how TV should work, what the model should be. It's actually kind of awesome. I saw the smart TVs today and there's like 50 different models. Not two of these companies are doing the same thing in their TV stuff. And actually where I think the most convergence has come is in their remote controls. And there's this remote control story happening. It's yes, it's completely crazy. You want this to go up. That slipped down somehow. What's happening here? This is like a scene from Alien. That was really weird. Is that better? Yeah, pretty good. So if you look at, they're all the same now. So if you look at Sony's remote control. I've never wanted a beer so bad in my life. Somebody's out here drinking a Modelo. Why do we own this? It just looks insane. We went from Takade to Modelo. I don't know. We're just going around the world. Go ahead, sorry. We're actually just going around Mexico in a circle. Well, it's the world in some ways. To some people. Go on. No, they all look the same. So Sony's remote, Google TV remote is a trackpad in the front, accordion in the back. Vizio's remote is a trackpad in the front, accordion in the back. Ubuntu TV, which I know you guys love. They just use the boxy. They just use the boxy. The boxy remote. They've all, it's like there's... You love Ubuntu. You love Ubuntu TV. It wasn't that good. But QWERTY on the back, definitely. Yeah, but that's where we're going. It's like they're realizing that they can't build these insane remotes. They have to build something that makes sense. They still have to make it control everything. And they know they can't just kick it over to the smartphone or kick it to the tablet because I don't think those are good ideas. I agree. Yeah, but it's just like... You were just thrown off right there, weren't you, when I agreed with you. Yeah, because I don't know what to do with that. You're like, uh, shall we? We should go. We should let them go. When you say commonality, like... Well, let's look at you. Let me show you pictures. I agree on the remote thing. That's definitely true. But... Remotes are played. It's all about motion control. A ton of these things, whether you're running regular ice cream sandwich, whether you're running Google TV, a ton of these things are running a version of Android. No, no, no. Everything's running Android. Everything is running Android. You know, I've been talking a lot about this and I'm just seeing it happen more and more is that the model is... Because presumptu... Presumptively. Is that the word? Presumably. Presumably. Presumptively is a very strange word. I mean, I'm trying to think of a word. Presumptually, if that's a word. Yeah, I don't know about that. Presumptually, Apple is trying to forge a great deal with the network or something like that. There is a thing going on. Right? Yeah. I want to talk about Apple in a second. Of course, you know, and I agree, these TV manufacturers are like, oh no, Apple's doing TV. And they'd be doing... You know, these manufacturers have been doing a lot of smart TV stuff before these rumors for Apple got hot. But it's crazy smart TV land at CES right now. But I think the content distributors... I can't talk. The standards board. Distributors want to do apps. I think each channel wants to have its own app. And it's happening on Xbox. At Microsoft, you know, they announced like the Fox app and the other station app. There's an ESPN app. And I think that's what the content providers are actually going to want to do. Instead of Comcast being in charge or Time Warner being in charge... Let me show you this. They get to be in charge per channel. Like Fox gets to be in charge. Well, I mean, that's... Can I just show these pictures? I mean, like, look. Here, look. I'll tell you this. Apple's not going to build that. Right? I've got the... You can tilt it like that. You good, Trayton? Like, Apple's not building that. You want it like... I got it... Dude. You want to tilt it forward so that it's glare. I understand. I've got to press the tab. Apple's not going to build that. Like, almost certainly not. This is the Vizio. Well, they're not going to build a remote with a bunch of buttons on it. We know that. They're not going to build that, and this is Sony's. And all the other ones, they look like this, too. This is the trend. And the back of these things have... Here, just take this. And the back of these things all have keyboards on them. And it's really, like, nuts to see, well, we got to get there. We got to build these remotes that let you use smart TVs effectively. And this is the dominant idea that's emerged is... Trackpad on the front, QWERTY on the back. But, I mean, remote aside... Buttons everywhere. I think the most important thing is the content... I don't think it's remote aside. Actually, I think this is the big story. Wait, wait, wait. Let me finish. If it's not remote aside, then let me finish my point. Let me finish my point. Go on. I think the most important thing is the content that you can actually watch. And a ton of these things are ending up with Android. And I think that provides a really clear path for... Instead of one specific company, like a Netflix or a Google or Apple, you know, a... And forging a really... Forging a really great deal... I don't know what's happening. You're just frantically calming me down. Yeah, you know, you're like opening your mouth. You're like inhaling. Maybe he was just breathing. No. You know, it's... Go ahead. No, no, no. No, no, no. No, no. Maybe we should be drinking. I don't know. I'm starting to think we made a mistake by going sober. Instead of one company forging this huge pervasive deal and then they own the whole, you know, TV or movie distribution market over the Internet, I think the Android becoming a standard on TVs paves a way for channels to make apps. All a cart. Should be all a cart. All a cart. That's all I've been trying to say. Right. And I agree, but the only... Let me just... No, it's fine. It's fine because I think this is really important. Why are we talking about remotes? Why are we talking about remotes? Because you have to. Because the thing about TV, the thing that sucks about TV right now is the interface. It's not the delivery. Yeah, but... Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I can't watch what I want to watch on TV. That's worse. Unless I pay $1 million a month. I don't actually think... Can I just say I'm going to have to... No, no, no. Look, gluing a trackpad onto a TV doesn't make it easier or better or simpler to use. No, no, no. I don't think that's what's going to happen at all. If you tell everybody in the world they have to start using a mouse... These remotes are red herring. They took a year to figure it out and this is what it came out with. The real thing is going to be it's on your network, your phone's on your network, get the app, the remote app, which is... Like Direct TV, the app is amazing to use to watch TV. When I use it on the iPad, it's awesome. It's way better than any remote I've ever used. It makes sense for a human brain. And they're going to do that with the TVs. Presumably, if you wanted, each content provider could have its own interface, but you certainly could do a basic interface for a TV. In fact, you already can do this. This is different than what I'm saying. I R blasters is what I'm saying. They're doing them all over the place. Why was the remote thing such a big issue? I don't get that at all. Because if you put Android in the TV, you have to control the television. Yeah, with an Android phone. And Google TV, all this Android stuff, is all about moving a cursor around the screen. Okay, that's bad, but he's not talking about that. The Lenovo interface isn't like that. I'm saying it's not Google TV. It's still like, use this D-pad. I'm saying we're already after the fact. They already put Android in the TV. That's what's in the TVs now. The smart TVs are Android TVs. Oh, no, they're not. Now they are. Today they are. As of today. No. The smart TVs are running Android. A lot of them are. A couple of them are. Well, some of them are. Sony's aren't, but Sony's aren't and Samsung's aren't. Well, that's pretty, well then, you know, as Sony and Samsung go, so goes the industry. And Lenovo's TV. What I want is. Lenovo's TV. God knows Lenovo's dominant. Well, they're in the market. Samsung's going to make one. Well, who makes TVs? Vizio? Yeah. Well, they run. And Vizio. Okay, so Vizio, hold on. Neil, Neil, Neil. Dude, dude. Okay, so Vizio, Samsung and Sony are all doing Android TVs. No, no. Samsung and Sony are not doing Android TVs. Oh, I thought you were saying they were. Yeah. Oh, I thought you were saying they were. But Samsung and Sony have Google TV. Are you sure they're not? Absolutely. I think they are. Sony, I was just at the Sony press conference. I think they lied to you. By the way. I don't know, they started making Android phones. You said they have a Google TV box. They have a box. Oh, right. That's right. They have a box. They're not in the television. But that doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. You know what? A few years ago, there was only the G1. Look, I have a projector. Okay. It has no smart features. It just has a HDMI plug. I think what Paul is trying to say is this. Hold on. And I want to hear your remote thing because I'm kind of trying to understand it on packet. Yeah, I'll tell you. I think what Paul is saying is that if we were to say, well, Android can have its own skin and do this and that and the other thing, but we can all huddle around the Android market or some kind of market for TVs given a certain set of standards. Or the Android OS. Like, right. If you're a TV user, then you can distribute an app. Like, if you're HBO, you can say, you buy my app, pay a fee or do whatever. Though I don't think they want to be in that business personally. HBO definitely does want to be in that business. But I'm just saying it could open up avenues to not all cart service that we haven't seen before. Right. Because I want... On every TV, whether it's a Samsung or a Sony or a Vizio. Because I want... Even though two of those three don't run in. I want... But next year, they will. You know it. Well, Samsung is going to do something this year at Google TV. What's going to happen? What's going to happen to these guys next year? They're not going to keep running their proprietary stuff. This is... Well, here's what I'm saying. This is the remote thing. Apple's solution is not going to be about content distribution. Right? Well, I think it might. Fundamentally... It has to be. No, because really delivery is not the problem. Yeah, delivery is the problem. Yes, it is. I don't know which planet you're on. Yeah, where are... What planet are you on? The planet where most people sign up for cable and they're not mad that cable comes to them. No, well, I think the people are mad. I think that we're... In our space, people are mad. I think that our space is the bleeding edge. And I see that growing. I see that growing. I think the people are mad about it. Where we're at with TV right now is where the music industry was at, where most people buy CDs, they seem perfectly fine, and these people who steal are just weirdo pirates. Right. And what was actually happening is I want to be able to get music straight to my computer and not have to go to a store for it. And what I want for TV... You were the fringe and that fringe became the center. What I want for TV is for it not to be routed through this serpentine path through all these providers. I mean, let's just put this way. Punk rock started... I should be able to... No, my God. We're way out there. No, no, no. We're not way out there. Punk rock was the music of Misfits and Outkast and art music. And now it's turned into dubstep. And now it's Sum 41. Okay? You know? It's whatever punk is. And I want this... That's what's going to happen with TVs. I want this perfect on-demand reality. And I don't think Google TV is... On-demand reality is a good marketing term for our phone. Let me just only finish one phrase and then you can talk about remotes. I really want to talk about remotes. I want this perfect on-demand out-kart reality. I don't think Android is wonderful for it. And I'd love to see what Apple does. But I think the app model is the shortest distance between these two points. I don't disagree with that. I don't disagree with that. I'm saying to you that all of this racing around to figure out... To get to that goal, all this racing around to figure out what they're ignoring, ultimately what they're ignoring is interface. And the interface is the key to making that a reality. And they're racing around, they're gluing these old models onto televisions. You have a mouse. Can we just talk about what the remote thing is? The remotes all have mice. They're mice. They're building keyboards and mice for the television. Ultimately what they're doing... It's like web TV. It's web TV. Okay, but... Right. And the iteration that they're doing with it is still the old model. And you have Direct TV. Your Direct TV app, what does it do? It shows you a program guide. That's the old model. Well... Well, you think it's awesome. So what are you asking me to... You just said. You just went on a little soliloquy about how amazing that was. I don't understand how the old model is information that's usable. What are you asking for? What do you want? But hold on. Wait. Before we get to that, can we just talk about the insinuation that somehow it's the old model if you present information in a usable way? That's not an old model. I don't think that what it's showing me is the old model. I think it's showing me something brand new, which is a way to interact with my television that makes sense to me as a human being. All they've done is taken a program guide from there and put it here. And that makes a lot of sense. Okay, that's cool. And that is the paradigmatic shift in the way we interact with our television. It's a little shift. I'd say paradigmatic shift. Instead of moving the cursor up and down here, you're moving it up and down here. It's totally different. And they've only scratched the surface on that. I mean, they've only scratched... Okay. I'm willing to hear this out. Imagine if there was an audio app on your Apple TV and you were doing whatever stupid thing with your remote to pull up a song on audio versus pulling up a song and air streaming to your Apple TV. Or imagine if you had... So that's different. I mean, that's actually, I think that is meaningfully better. So this is what you want. Yeah. What's the difference? There's a huge difference. There's a huge difference. But that's the same thing as what I'm doing with Direct TV. No, that's what I'm saying. Except the airplay... I was depending on this side. The conversation doesn't happen over here. I want you to lose. Whatever your opinion on any of this stuff is... I mean, it happens over my... I mean, I'm in shock. I want you to lose. Okay? Second high five of the night. We're an hour and 10. Okay. Wow. Yeah, we're currently... No, we got... That's how long we have left. Oh. No, we should actually... What else do we have on our list? Because we're kind of in the weeds on this remote thing. Well, that's Smart TVs. What else? I'm going to... I'm saying here... Okay, say what you want. Oh my God. Can we talk about that thing that David wore, that helmet that he wore that played... Yeah, no. I got that. I got that. Okay, good. That's all I really wanted to say. No, I was just saying... Neal has got one minute. Is Scoble here yet? I'm actually worried that we didn't coordinate with Scoble. He might not be here tonight. Yeah. Neal, I got everybody like... Go, Neal. Go ahead. These things that we're saying, these Smart TVs... I'm just kidding. No, these Smart TVs that we're saying, they're like not the answer. They're interesting and they're different. You know we're not arguing that. No, but... It's just love fish. Love fish. But all this Android stuff, all this let's put an app on a TV and then you click a button to run the app, they're still not the answer because they're just too hard to use. Are you going to tell us what the answer is? I don't know, man. I'm watching your... You're saying they're coming at the problem from the wrong angle. They're gluing all these old ideas onto... Let's make it so you can run apps on your television. Okay, let's start here. You know what this reminds me of? Actually more than anything... What's that? Is the original iPhone where all the smartphones were racing in one direction. So let's put a computer in your pocket. Windows Mobile's Windows in your pocket. Symbian is computer, like a computer. They run apps from everywhere and there's nothing centralized. The iPhone came out super limited, no external apps. The problem wasn't there, wasn't delivery of apps. It was just interface. That was the problem they solved. You make... that's a really compelling point and on what is the fifth anniversary of the announcement of the iPhone, I think it is a good time to think about what that changed and why. What I'm seeing here, this is just the next generation of web TV. I think the question you have to identify, and this is what I actually want to know from you, I'd like to hear from both of you, and I think I know what Paul thinks, what's the problem with TV and cable? I think the problem with TV more than anything is user interface. So you're saying... I disagree. You're saying if someone could introduce an iPad or iPhone style revolution to interface, the content will follow because... Let me... Hold on, let's be clear. So when you say that, you're saying that somebody said, you're a Comcast subscriber or a FIYO subscriber or Time Warner, let's see, it could be anybody. It could be any of those three. I'm not saying it's like perfect. No, no, but hold on. So you've been using your TV in this way, you're going through this kind of rigorous interface that is very utilitarian, right? Yeah. And to get content, it's hard. Like Google TV actually has this a little bit right in the sense that they want to try to aggregate like, you know, sources. Well, you know, I talked to all these cable guys in these meetings and all this stuff, and they all say, search and discovery, that's... And once somebody cracks it, the whole market will change. No, but TV isn't just about search and discovery, it's also about... There's something about television that you don't do that you did on the radio and I think you do still do with music, which is cruising, where you're like just looking through things to see what tickles your fancy. Because you know, when you go to an art gallery, not every painting is to your liking, but you look at all the... It's jam stacking. Jam stacking, but you look at all of the paintings, or at least you try to, if you're a sophisticated person like myself. I ignore all paintings that don't fit my... No, no, no. Yes, nudity. What's the description of that painting? Should I look at it? Oh, they're brass or no? Yes, yes? Okay. Josh Tupolsky in our gallery, everybody. That's me. I say, does it look like someone's in pain in this picture? I want to stare at it. Leave me alone in this part of the gallery. And I do that voice too. That's very odd voice. Hey, what's going on? It's the other guy. So, I do not know what that means. I don't know. Four hours of sleep. Get off my back. Get off my case. But so, I hear what you're saying in the sense that you could upend this whole, like, how do I get to stuff? But what Paul's saying and what I agree with is, is it's not about... Are you saying also in that... Hold on, wait. What if the TV was social? Oh God, kill me. What if there was a social network for what you're watching on TV? Facebook needs to do a TV. I got it. Ving. Visual ping. You just turn on your TV and it starts playing whatever is the most popular among your friends. You know, that's the dream. Oh, really? Like 500 companies here are going to start running to the door of the trailer. You mean like audio where I get to hear what's most popular among my friends? Dude, imagine audio... The worst music in the world. Imagine audio for TV and you launch and it's a grid of the most popular things among your friends and then there's search box. You start typing. You're killing me. Watch this. Watch this. Watch this. Watch this. Watch this. Watch this. You know, finding the stuff isn't the problem. You know what you want to watch. It's getting the stuff. No, that's what I'm saying. Watch this. If you could type in a little... Can you say watch this one more time? Well, if you'll listen. You start typing into a search box. You hit enter and it pulls up that thing that you wanted to watch and then you watch it. I mean, that's the Google TV promise, right? Oh my God. I mean, that's like the thing. That's the show TV. I got two words for you. Video synergy. What about social video synergy? No, but what you need is... Video social. No, no, here's what we need. There's a company that... Here's what we need. I think here's what we need in this. So first off, content distributors need to allow their content to be accessible in a way that you can go and buy it if you want to pay for it and watch it instantly, right? I don't disagree. Okay. That's number one. But it kind of needs to be available, right? The second thing is you need to be able to find that content. Search and discovery. Search and discovery. And then, but the third piece is that needs to be handled... I mean, the problem with your solution is that if it's all a cart, every experience is a different experience. Yep. No. There's no consistency. I agree. That sucks. But that's why video synergy... But I just think it's the most likely to happen. That's why video synergy makes sense, which is a framework is created. It's just a framework is created. A framework is created which allows content creators... It's a standard like the World Wide Web. It's a standard for like... The World Wide Video. The WWV. Yeah, World Wide Video. And a standard is created that lets people slot. There are rules that the content can get in the pipeline, but it fits into... It's aggregated. And the provider, the who should we call it? Content creator. The standards board. Content creator gets to set that price. There's two ways to go at it. It's like you do it like apps. You code it like apps in the app store. Or you essentially... You price streams and the streams fall into the framework. You do streams. Exactly. What you've invented is the cable company. No, but the cable company sucks. I'm trying to invent... That's what you've invented. No, no, but I'm saying it doesn't have to come... The cable company comes from one place. This is built by the people. Here's what the cable company does. They lay the... People that put this on. They put up the lines, right? Yeah. They put up the lines and then they say, we're going to create... We're going to create this big service that you can get all these channels and they strike deals with distributors and they say, we'll distribute your stuff for whatever... We'll put your stuff on the... Yeah, I hear what you're saying. We'll make some exchange of money between us, the big companies, right? And then we'll decide essentially what our viewers can get. And you'll... You have your rules, we have our rules. And at the end of the day, the person who's watching gets what they get. Sure. Because we own the ship basically. So what we're saying, what I'm saying, and I think what Paul's saying, and I think what you're saying ultimately is that what we want to do is cut out the part where there's the content and the thing in between it and me and have it just be the content and me and the thing that just facilitates it. Which, you know... But that's not the... The cable money isn't facilitating it. They're laundering it. They're laundering it, but they do a thing that like... This podcast is over. They are not a service. I mean, I'm not going to sit here and defend cable companies. I think they're silly and stupid. I think you're trying... I think you're thinking about it. Just cross your mind. Well, I'm just saying is... Why do you like cable company remotes? I don't. Why do you support a time counter? I don't have cable company remotes. This Comcast remote that's like gigantic and lights up in four different colors. You gave that an 8.6. Hey, wearable remotes. I'm just saying, look, speaking of wearables... Let's go. We've got to get this. We'll pick this up tomorrow because guess what? We're going to see more Smart TVs. We're almost at an hour and a half. But this is... Go ahead. So, you know, I put on our topic list that Microsoft Keynote was the worst in show. Yes. You know? Yep. But I also put on the list that this was the best in show. Let's see. Words can be really hard to show. Can I get this? Can you punch it up? Watch out that you don't get your code on there. Turn that off. Turn that off. Pause that. We have it on the list? This is future technology. I'm just going to watch this all the time. Hey, Crayton, get in here. Crayton, come on. Hurry up. It's a very, very important thing that happened. We need a camera operator. That's Jordan. All right. We got Jordan. Well, no, Crayton was over there. I didn't see Jordan. You got it? Where's his video? So just, I think this is very minor. And I tweeted about it. And people were like, I don't get why this is cool. But it's not loading here. Okay. Whatever. Oh, fine. Fine. We'll watch it on a laptop, which has been able to play video since time immemorial. I can definitely immemorial that. I got it. Chill out. Here we go. Is that working? Yeah. There you go. Is that? Did you hit the? I hit the button. There's no audio here. Hold on. There are 3D goggles that basically put a heads up display in front of your eyes and let you do all kinds of cool stuff. It's actually running Android. This is the best video David's done. I just wanted you to see David. So this is like a virtual reality game he's playing. There's some games that have been created specifically for this that create a whole 3D, 360 world around you that you can interact in. And right now, it uses a wireless controller or your smartphone to interact. But soon it'll just be able to use your hands. So right now I'm playing a robot game where I'm a robot just traipsing around and I can punch and I'm just knocking buildings over. And if I jump, I actually jump and I can spin around and there's new buildings and it's everywhere. So it's this totally immersive experience. There's everywhere man. There's a dinosaur. You could say anything. I'm flying. I'm eating a crayon. The crayon just exploded in my stomach. I've been eating crayons for a long time. I'm eating crayons. I'm eating crayons. I'm eating crayons. I'm eating crayons. I'm eating crayons. I'm eating crayons. I couldn't do that. He can't do that. He couldn't in the goggles. There's the thing. This is the thing about CES. They're like, CS is lame. It's because the big guys are doing boring stuff. But what is cool about CS, there's a lot of really, and I know this is like, oh, who would ever want that or who would ever need it, but like, this stuff is important. No, no, but it's important and it's cool and it's interesting and at some point, the things you think like, hey, that's not important or nobody cares or that's just some little weird company and making some dumb stuff that isn't as cool as what Apple makes, that does influence what the rest of the world is doing. And I think there's a lot of people here doing really influential, really cool things. And to the people who don't think that's happening, I'm not like a cheerleader for CS because there's a lot of horrible crap here, like Microsoft's keynote tonight. But there are cool things, there are diamonds in the rough and the reason we come every year to do this is because finding those things is really exciting. It was funny, Gary Shapiro before the Microsoft keynote was like, there was a time when they weren't sure if they wanted to let PCs come to CS. Yeah. And then Bill Gates came and gave a little talk and blew everybody's minds. There was a time when it was just TVs. Yeah. Now it's just mostly TVs. And radios and microwaves. And VCRs. Oh, Samsung put out a smart washing machine today. You can troll with your smartphone. I'm buying that. All right, that's it. That's our first VirgCast for CS, nicely done. Really excellent job. I'm pretty proud of it. I'm proud of us too. Great job to the crew here. As far as I know, and I don't know if you've been in Ustream or not, I don't think we had any major technical problems. Do we know? I just said they couldn't hear anything we were saying. You know, by the way, the trailer is about to start on fire because you said that. Like, this is going to explode. Seriously, this wall. Can I get an explosion? We're going to see fire seeping through this wall and engulf the entire room. Anyhow, but we'll be back tomorrow night and every night this week up until Friday. But not from here. We're actually going to be. We're going to be on the show floor for Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, I think. Yes, I'm like that. And then we come back here for the last show on Friday. Yeah. So I don't know how the set up's going to be on the floor, but I'm sure these guys will have it taken care of. Jordan, you feel good? Jordan's feeling excellent, so that's our show for the night. If you want to get in touch with us, you can email us at podcast at theverge.com. You can leave a comment on the post when it goes up. You can find us on Twitter, Joshua Topolsky, Reckless. It's weird in person. Future Paul at Verge is the Verge. And we'll do a list maybe of all of our writers. I think Thomas Huston did one. We'll do it up here. We'll do it. And we'll put it in forums or something. Anyhow, we'd love to hear what you guys have to say. And actually, we want to know what you guys want to see us cover. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a CS forum. We have a CS hub page, which you should check out, which has, by the way, we have control over how we lay out the site. And there's so much news today that even having the ability to move every single thing around, you just couldn't do it. So you're going to want to hash through some of this stuff and see what we hit today. And we'll be doing story streams and compiling sort of best of every day. It's a little bit like homework. It's kind of like homework. We have gadget homework everywhere. But we have a CS forum. And I would like an essay from each of you on the future of television. And on page five. I'd like to hear responses to this. But on the CS forum, I actually said, hey, what's the coolest thing you've seen? There's some great responses to it. And so feel free to. No, I will say the response to that. Tons of people saying Visio, Ultrabooks. No, they're cool. Fit in lights or whatever. They're cool. They do look a little bit like MacBooks, though. But they all do. But whatever. At least it doesn't look like any Dell. No offense, I love your products. I'll be back tomorrow, actually. Whatever happened to Dell? We used to do a lot more stuff. Dell did this thin laptop with this curly spring thing. All right, we got to go. That's the show for tonight. We'll be back tomorrow night. We might try to start a little bit earlier tomorrow night, I think. Well, we don't. Let's not make any promises. No promises. But it'll probably be at 10.30. You know what your grandpa used to say. Yeah, that's true. He did used to say that. Wishes are heavy. That's what my grandpa used to say. Wishes are actually not as heavy as human feces. Rock and roll. What's that? Nailed it. Are we done? Are we off the air?