 Welcome to The Verge Live just after Worldwide Developer Conference 2014. I'm Ross Miller. I'm Chris Sigler. And, God, there's a lot to go through. We'll have Dieter Bohn. It was a heck of an event. Yeah. We'll have Dieter Bohn with us very soon. From San Francisco. From San Francisco, yes. From San Francisco. But let's just get into it. Here's the big news, and then we'll kind of dive right in. OS X 10.10 Yosemite. It's a brand new look. Notification. Widgets, actually. Spotlight, which is basically Alfred. Right. iOS 8. Health Kit. Home Kit. Programs. Apps can talk to each other. Widgets. New programming language. Dear God. And, of course, the continuous client. Everything talks to each other now. They blew it out. They really did. So let's just go. Let's just ask real quick. What was your personal reaction to the whole thing? I thought that they hit... Well, obviously, we would have liked to have seen hardware, right? In a perfect world, we would have seen an iWatch. We would have seen a retina MacBook Air. We would have seen the mythical Apple TV, the actual rectangular box. Not just the set top. You're talking about the full set. Right. Yeah. But we can keep dreaming. And look, let's be honest. Apple's going to be doing some events later this year, obviously. So this ended up being a purely software-focused event. But if it had to be a purely software-focused event, I think that they hit on a lot of really important points. I just said on Twitter a second ago that it feels like they hit... They checked a bunch of boxes that had been lingering for years that needed to be checked off. The app-to-app crosstalk in iOS is huge. Widgets and notification center, those have been sort of on the docket for a while, rumored for a while. The continuous client stuff between OS X and iOS is really, really freaking cool. You can take a call on your phone, on your PC. I just tweeted last week that I wish that you could see your SMSs in the Messages app in OS X. They're fixing that. So they're doing some really cool stuff. AirDrop works now between phones and PCs. So again, they just checked off a bunch of boxes that they needed to check off. I think that this is a great update to iOS. And of course, they're bringing the design language of OS X up to snuff. Right. So let's dive in. And first and foremost, yeah, I think the widget thing, I do want to say that the widget was interesting. Craig Federighi, who had every other performance today... You mean Hair Force One. Hair Force One, as he's affectionately called. He noticed that widgets has been something that's been requested since iOS 2. That was the only time that Steve Jobs' name was invoked, actually. And it took six versions to get it right. When they got it right, we'll find out. But real quick, let's go for iOS 10, because it was the quickest one of the bunch. It was maybe 20 minutes of a two-hour presentation. Something like that. Yeah, they kind of... OS 10, 10.10, Yosemite, which Craig Federighi first called OS 10 Weed. Yeah, that was a weird name. They're doing weird fake jokes. This is like corporate joke stuff now. They were doing... Yeah, they were really yucking it up a little bit for a while. I mean, look, I think that Federighi is not... He's definitely not a stuffy guy. And it shows in the way that he presents. But yeah, they kind of blew through OS 10 pretty quickly when you break down everything that they were bringing to the table. Obviously, the aforementioned continuous client stuff, which I believe... This is still a little unclear to me, but I think that it's all falling under the umbrella of what they're calling handoff, which is better airdrop, phone call integration between your PC and your phone, caller ID works. So if your phone rings, you see a pop up on the screen that says so-and-so is calling and SMS integration. Right now, it's just iMessage. I mean, between handoff, airdrop, mail drop, iCloud Drive, which is, I guess, their Dropbox competitor in some sense. This is everything that iCloud, I think, was promised to be years and years ago that's actually finally realized in Dinsum. Right, right. And of course, you can't overlook the fact that they've completely redesigned the operating system. And now it looks like iOS. It's much flatter. And Josh, who was doing the live blog, just kept screaming, glass and glass, glass. Yeah, I'll be curious to get Josh's full download on how he feels about the design, because I know that he had some strong feelings about iOS 7 when it came out. And they've obviously adopted that design language for Yosemite. It's readily apparent that Johnny Ive had a very strong influence there. So from what I can tell so far, it looks great. The public is going to be able to sign up for this beta over the course of the summer, and then it's eventually going to be a free upgrade this fall. But historically, you've had to pay a fee to become a developer in the eyes of Apple, and then you can go under NDA and get this thing. But now it's just kind of open to everybody. Yeah, I think it's also just a realization that that's just how information is dissipated now. Everybody just ganks everything. It's going to get leaked somehow. You might as well just be a part of it. That's exactly right. Yeah, and I think the most visual or I guess the most functional user-facing feature that I think is going to be exciting is Spotlight, which is essentially, and I don't know if anyone else here uses it, but we use Alfred religiously at the office. And it's just like one hot key, and you get everything you want online or on your computer. And now that's just part of the operating system. And thank God too. Yeah, no, I mean, if you had to kind of identify one theme throughout this event, it's that they're playing catch up and kind of picking and choosing features from other platforms and apps around the world. It's obvious that they took some inspiration from Alfred for Spotlight. Feel kind of bad for the Alfred guys. Yeah, but I mean, but it's also, it can now be integrated much clearer. I'm sure Alfred will figure something out. And then again, like it's not our place to care. Like it's much better as it is now. I care. I care. Okay, I'm really sorry. Do you want a hug? Not now, maybe later. Okay, yeah, so that was cool. But I just keep going back to the design because it is really striking. If you think about the fact that OS X is what, over a decade old now. Is that right? Over a decade old? I'm not making numbers up, right? I mean, it's 10.10, number schemes be damned. Right, sorry. And this feels like the most drastic single design iteration in the platform's history. I mean, there have obviously been some pretty striking. If you go back and look at 10.0 or before that into the betas to 10.5, 10.6, 10.7, there are obviously changes. But this is like a really clean break. A lot of glass, as Josh said, very flat. It's the matchup that they needed with iOS now that it's in 7 and 8 and they had that clean break last year on that platform. And before we get into that, I do want to stop for a second to enjoy one clip. This is probably my favorite part. There wasn't a lot of Apple executives that showed up. It was basically just Craig and Tim kind of going back and forth. We expected some kind of beats mentioned. There wasn't one except for Dr. Dre. Yes, they called Dr. Dre. They did call Dr. Dre. And I think we have that clip we'll play in a second of Craig Federighi talking to Dr. Dre, calling him on the computer. Yes. I wanted to make a phone call to a new Apple employee that's joining us. It's something we do from time to time. So let me just bring up this. Here we go. A little welcome call. Let's give him a WWC welcome. So let's have my Mac dial via my iPhone. I talk to people like him all the time, of course. Very normal for me. Hello? Wow. Hey, it's Craig Federighi here. Hey, how you doing? This is Dre. Hey, Dr. Dre, you're on speaker phone via my Mac with over 6,000 amazing developers here at WWDC. We all want to welcome you to Apple. Hey, thanks, Greg. I love a big audience. I want to thank everybody here. They have created such amazing apps. Yeah, they have created some amazing apps. By the way, I'm glad you called. I hear Tim gets here pretty early. What time should I show up for work? If you want to beat Tim into the office, it would be about 430. But I think orientation, new employee orientation starts at 9. So you don't want to miss the free t-shirt. So I'd shoot for 9. Sounds good. I can't wait to get to work with the team at Apple. And Dre, it's been great chatting with you. I'll see you around campus. Thanks, Greg. Talk soon. All right, bye. Okay, first off, on first mention, Craig goes, hello, doctor. It's not a first name. No, it's a well... It isn't, it isn't. Maybe in a formal setting, if you're meeting the good doctor for the first time, you refer to him as doctor. I'm not sure. Oh, man. I just clearly listened to Dre just go off on some script as everyone's applauding, just getting through the motions. I'm just still in my mind having a very difficult time rectifying the chronic with what happened on stage today. It's just, it's not... What? You know, Dre is known for his work in music that is very, I would say, it is not of the law for lack of a better term. And so now he's in this very corporate environment and it's frankly a little difficult to rectify. I don't think it's such a bunch of stretch. I think Dre's in the business of making a lot of money. That's true. That's true. And that phone call alone made him a billionaire. That's very true. Well, so getting back to the point about Beats not being a big part of this presentation, look, the deal was announced last week. I'm sure that the keynote today has been planned or mostly planned for weeks, if not months. So it's not something that they could rely on and they just didn't fit it in. And that's not to say that they would have had any hardware to announce anyway. That's true. But I mean, there's also the software portion, which is Beats Music, which is somewhat analogous to iTunes Radio. Also, we didn't hear anything about that. That's a very good point. Which was surprising. We heard there might be a chance of the iTunes Radio app being separate. Not the case. Although God knows that might change also because of, I don't know what they're going to do. You have iTunes Music, you have Music, you have iTunes Radio, you have Beats Music. It's going to get a little crowded on that one. Let's just jump right into iOS 8, unless there's anything else you want to talk about for Yosemite at all. Well, just the fact that this is a hell of an update for OS X to be free. It's one thing for this to be a $100 update, but we've kind of gotten the sense from Apple that they're moving away from that model for desktop updates like they have been for mobile updates. So if you're going to get a free operating system update, this is a great one to get. That's a very small group. Oh, if you're getting any free operating system update. But to their credit, that is something that's big on the developer stuff because, and this is something they hammered early on, was 51% of their customers have upgraded to Mountain Line, the newest version. Which sounds like a lot. You mean Maverick. Maverick, sorry. Yes. It sounds like a lot, but remember, it's a free download and they only got half the upgrade. I'm sorry, I know it's much better than Windows 8. Right. Well, so there are a few considerations, right? There's the fact that there's a cutoff beyond which the hardware doesn't support Mavericks, right? So you got to figure that a significant percentage of that other half falls into that category. And then there's the category of people who just don't care. And then there's the group of people, myself included, who believe that Snow Leopard was the best version of OS X of all time and would prefer that it just be frozen there in time. Seriously, Snow Leopard was really, really good. Why would you want an outdated operating, you know what? It was just, no. Just okay. After Snow Leopard, every subsequent, I'm sure there are viewers right now who understand what I'm getting at. After Snow Leopard, every subsequent version of OS X introduced more bugs than it fixed. Snow Leopard, it was like, they took, I don't know if you remember the keynote for it, but I remember it very well. They made a very, very specific point of saying to developers, look, this version isn't about features. We're just cleaning up that, like, we've been working on this thing for many years now. We're just going to take a breath, clean it up, fix some bugs, and spit out a new version. And they did it and it was fantastic. And since then, every time you upgrade to a new version of OS X, you go through a couple point releases where, full of buggy. And I'm sure that Yosemite will be the same way. Absolutely. But here's the thing also, and it's a numbers thing too, is Apple, I don't think, honestly, cares that much. To an extent. And I'll explain why. Apple doesn't care about bugs. Well, it doesn't care as much about OS X. Here's another reason why. Mavericks, what, they said 40 million copies installed, and that's 51% user base. So it's just a little over 80 million. Yep. Okay, compare that to 800 million iOS devices as announced today. You know, 100 million iPod touches. They have more iPod touches out there than they're claiming for Mac. Right. So, like, what they're focused on, I mean, they keep saying iOS is iOS and OS X is OS X. They're not going to change them. But iOS is clearly the dominant platform. Of course, that's why they spent an hour and a half on it. Right. And that was, when they started talking about iOS, was we got this barrage of words that ended in ket. Right. There was health ket, which is accompanied by the creatively named app Health. Then there is home ket. There is cloud ket. Cloud ket. And I think I might be missing one or two. And then there was metal. Anyway, we should talk about all these things. Yes. And I'm going to have to ask you to kind of hold my hand through metal and Swift, because those are the ones that are going to... Sure. So let's just go into Health Kit, which was formerly known in the leaks as Health Book, because it just looked like Passbook. Right. So Health Kit is the platform or the sub-platform, and Health is the app. Is that right? Yes. Okay. So what is the big thing here? I know it's like it keeps track of a lot of stuff. Yeah. And they can send it to Mayo Clinic. Right. They send it to Mayo Clinic. Basically, I get the impression that they're trying to obviate doctors. Someday Apple is going to be your doctor. Your phone is going to be your doctor. You think obviate or supplement? I mean, I don't think they're trying to do anything replacement here. Look, man, in 20 years, doctors will be obsolete. Your phone will be your doctor. When you need surgery, equipment on the phone will sort of spring out and operate on you. No, they're working with Nike and, as you mentioned, Mayo Clinic to do some of this stuff. They announced a lot of partners. I'm sure they're going to be announcing more. But it's apparent that health and fitness are a big, big push for Apple right now. And we've heard rumors that the iWatch that they're allegedly working on, which we heard nothing about at this event, is also fitness-focused. So you can see how it kind of all creates an ecosystem. And here's the thing. It's almost somewhat of a head scratcher because in the finance calls they do, they keep hinting at new product categories. They keep saying, we have a lot of great stuff. Tim Cook, I think less than a year ago, said, we really like wearable stuff for looking into it. And this time, they didn't even hint at iWatches. They were like, look, this health kit stuff, it measures. How do they get into measurements? Eh, don't worry about it. Right. Like, they did not even hint at it. No teases. It was just, we're measuring. Don't worry about it. That's because in a few months you're going to have your iWatch and it'll take care of all the measurements. In a few months. Maybe. I don't know. Who knows? That's Christmas time. So that was one of the kits. And then there was, let's just go through the kits, I guess, HomeKit. This is the one, I think Fortune or Forbes. FT, Financial Times, I believe. Financial Times. FT. One of the F-words. Apologies to all F-publications. But yeah, HomeKit. This was rumored. It's home automation. It's not as big of a deal in the presentation as it was in the article, but I'm curious your stance on this one because it's just, your phone knows what your house is doing. If you have the right smart home equipment, it can use it. Well, I think that Apple has the potential to bring gravity to a standard. It has the potential to do two very important things in home automation. One, bring gravity to a single standard in an industry that has historically struggled to find a common standard. And two, simply bring attention to it because it's kind of a wacky, offbeat, almost hobbyist industry where it's like you have these weirdos like myself who buy all these different wireless locks and lights and switches and all these things. And sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. Some use Z-Wave, some use Zigbee, some use some other weird standard. So right now, how do you control it? Is there a remote control you have? Are you still just using a light switch because then it's just nothing? No, that's a very good question. And there is no good answer. There are companies like Crestron that do ultra high-end home automation and they just basically talk to everything and they say, don't worry about it. You can buy these 10 components with 10 different standards and we'll just talk to all of them. There's a device called Revolve that we wrote about late last year. It looks kind of like a stack of CDs, a red and transparent stack of CDs that has a bunch of radios in it and it can talk to Nest thermostats and Z-Wave light switches and whatnot. So taking the bigger picture is basically what Apple wants to do. And this is obviously an old thing. It's not old, it's like a couple of years they've been working on this. They want you to talk to Siri and say, Siri, I'm getting ready for bed. Please turn off the lights. Stop looking at me. Right. So yeah, exactly. So that's the software, that's the user experience for this thing. But then on the back end, they have this HomeKit standard that devices will be able to get certified through. And so you're going to see all these things that have been just kind of like plodding along on disparate standards. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't, including, like I said, wireless locks, light switches, air conditioners and heaters. And actually now that Nest is a Google company, I suspect that no love will be lost between HomeKit and Nest. I don't think you're going to be seeing a lot of support. If you notice, if you look at the partners, and we've got the list right here, Nest is nowhere to be found. Nest is nowhere to be found. Nest nor Google. And they used to be BFFs. I don't know if you remember, I believe that Nest was the first brick and mortar store they were sold through. Was the Apple store. Was the Apple store. Yep. And I guess that is no longer the case or soon will not be the case. Right. But I mean, of course you would think that because Apple and Google are rivals, except they did mention Google twice by name. They name checked Google twice and Microsoft Bing once, which is great for them. Whenever they use Safari search in iOS or OS X, they're like, we were using Google search. And then the big extension thing, using actual widgets, we should get into that next, was Bing translation. They're not being shy about actually talking to the competitors when it's, of course, convenient for them. Right. And I think it's a tacit admission on Apple's part that they do certain things really well, and they do other things not very well. And one of those things that would be the barrier of entry is simply too high to try to bust into it is effective search. Think of how much time and money and energy Microsoft has poured into Bing, which plays a distant second fiddle to Google in the global, or at least in the North American search market. Which I hate to echo a Microsoft talking point, but again, second place is not the end of the world for this. I mean- No, no, certainly not. But the fact of the matter is Apple has to choose between embracing the search partners and trying to go up against them. And look at the struggle that they've had with maps, right? Apple Maps. And do they really want to repeat that again with something as daunting as effective web search? Probably not. Do you remember years ago they kept talking, oh, we have Wolfram Alpha integration, and what the hell happened to that thing? No, it's still in there. It's still? Okay. If you say something to Siri, something super nerdy like how many neutrons are in a whatever, it'll pull up Wolfram Alpha. That's good. But let's go into the Bing translation stuff and the extensibility, because this is the part that at once excites me and also scares the hell out of me. What scares you? Okay, well, let's talk about what it is first. It's extensibility is what they're calling it. It's this kind of a goodbye to the sandbox. It's apps talking to apps, which means finally open integration. It means like as a corollary to that, it's like, of course, keyboards, you can now choose different ones. And that's a huge point. That's a huge thing. Huge point. The mail client still default, the maps client default. Your keyboard though, it can be swipe, it could probably be Swift key. And there's a new keyboard that Apple touting that's its own keyboard essentially. Which is by the way, a Swift key like, and then it tries to complete phrases for you. So that all makes me super happy, super excited. This is a long time coming. Thank you widgets on the notification panel. That being said, the part of this that scares me is this is where Tim Cook talks about like Apple is very virus free. It's 1% of the mobile virus market, assuming like if Android is 99% and no one cares about Windows phone, God, I'm going to get killed after this. But then once you have this kind of thing where like apps can draw data from other apps and there's sandbox ideas over, does this open the apps, does this open the information up to be more subjective to viruses and to malware? I don't think so because all of those components that you're referring to are still going to go through the same app store approval process that they do now. The only difference is that they're now talking to each other. But like, you know, if you trust app A and you trust app B, then there's no real reason that you wouldn't trust app A to talk to app B. That's true. That's true. But yeah, you know, back to your original point about extensibility in general in iOS 8, this is potentially the single biggest announcement today. When you think back to the progression and the maturation of iOS and before that iPhone OS over the years, this has been a sticking point for as long as I can remember. The fact that apps can't extend each other, the fact that you can't have your own keyboard, which is a huge deal on Android. The first thing I do whenever I use an Android phone is install Swipe, and you haven't been able to do that in iOS. And frankly, at this point, the built-in, don't get me wrong, in iOS 1, iOS 2, Apple's keyboard was head and shoulders above everything else on the market. Today it sucks. It's terrible. It's worse than Windows phone stock keyboard. It's certainly worse than Android stock keyboard in KitKat. It's really a jelly bean before that. So it's good to see that they've done this. And I think that it could end up being, when we see where app development goes over the course of the next year, that could end up being the biggest deal here. Right. I mean, but again, we haven't seen anything of it. The only stuff they showed was Pinterest notification. They showed a lot of first-party stuff that's exciting. You can now inline respond to messages. I think Facebook you can like inline. Right. Well, it's just like, you know, it's just like anybody's developer conference. It's like Build or it's like IOWA. You need to, the first thing you need to do is present the possibilities to the developers and then in a few months you see what can actually be done. And my guess would be that in addition to the partners that they've worked with so far to present the few demos that they showed, by the time we get to an iPhone 6 announcement, they will have a bunch of additional stuff on the table. Right. So we should talk about this more, but thankfully, hopefully, luckily, lovely, we have Dieter Bone from San Francisco live on the air. Dieter, are you there? I am here. How are you doing, guys? Doing very well. That's a nice office. God, I've got to go out to San Francisco. Yeah, this is Vox West. It's very impressive. We're lucky to be here. That's beautiful. Yeah. Also, I'm not sure if it's a video glitch or if you're just really good at like miming. It is good to hear from you. So Dieter, you've done a number of worldwide developer conferences. You've done a number of developer conferences in general. What was the vibe like in there, media versus dev? So the vibe was pretty excited, pretty happy. The media was really into, especially the stuff for iOS 8, the extensions, I think they're called, the stuff between apps. Everybody in our section seemed really jazzed about it. But then when they moved on to the section about Swift, the new programming language, the media section kind of started to be like, oh, this seems cool. This seems cool. And the developer section, which was, of course, the vast majority of the room, lost their minds. They were cheering and yelling and super-duper excited about it. And I mean, I'm not a developer, so I can't tell you, other than Apple's claims that it's way faster than Objective-C and, of course, way faster than Python, what everything is that's great about Swift. But the developers there seemed really excited. And that, I think, is probably going to end up being the most influential thing out of this developers conference, we look back on it a few years from now. Right. And this is actually John Gerber, who was tweeting throughout the event, who's known Apple developer, knows the same thing. Media badge people are silent, attendees are going nuts. This is huge, huge news, the future of all Apple development, which, when you look at how small OS X adoption is versus iOS, I think he's right in that case. Yeah, but I mean, you see- We're going to need to see how this plays out for the rest of the developers conference. One question I have for Swift is, I'm sure that Apple's right that it's incredibly fast and easy to use and the development environment, and this sounds so nerdy, but this is a developers conference, so this is what the big news was, it seemed really easy to use. But my question is, if I start learning how to use Swift for iOS, does that mean I'm going to be less capable of making stuff for other platforms? Now, Swift can work along with Objective-C in the same app, so you can only pick Swift. But that might be a question. Right. And that's, of course, something that they may change going forward. Obviously, when Apple switched from, I guess, IBM PowerPCs a lot to Intel chips, the programming language went with it, the architecture went with it. Right now, Swift and Objective-C work side to side. Objective-C, of course, works on a lot of platforms. What happens when Apple sees this as a success and goes, sorry, guys. Well, for all we know, Swift will work just fine on Windows at some point. That's true. That's true. Right. Let's be super clear. Objective-C is already a very Apple-specific environment. You don't see developers on Windows or certainly on Android programming in Objective-C. So I don't see this as being a protectionist move, and I certainly don't see it as being a roadblock to allowing developers to develop in other platforms. And this is why I do not develop Encode. Thank you guys so much for clearing that one up on my end. No, but, yeah, so, Deater, above and all, you also solved the iOS stuff, the OS X stuff. What was the feeling for that? Your own personal feeling, actually. My own personal feeling is the, we'll start with OS X. I think it looks fine. I think it looks pretty good, actually. I'm really interested in the continuity features. I think that's killer, to be able to text and to be able to just pick up stuff from one device and move it to the other device and just start right where I left off. I'm super excited for that. I'm probably going to switch back to Safari from Chrome, because Chrome has been feeling slower and slower, and all the speed stuff they showed on Safari looks pretty amazing. So it's not a kind of update that would, if you don't already like OS X, get you to switch necessarily. But if you are using OS X, I think it's going to feel a lot better. As for my OS X stuff, I like the extensibility stuff where apps can talk to each other. I'm pretty excited for Touch ID being opened up to the point where I can use an iPhone 5 all this time, but the ability to not have to punch in passwords. And yeah, I don't know. A lot of it's a blur. I'm glad AirDrop finally works across devices. I'm glad they finally fixed that. Yeah, I mean, after a keynote, it's always tough to remember the millions of features that they announced. What's some of the stuff you guys have been talking about? Yeah, well, to your point, Dieter, I think that the handoff features are huge. I was just tweeting last week that the Messages app on OS X would be so much more useful if you could see both SMS and iMessage. So the fact that they did that was big. I was kind of blown away by their phone call demo. I thought that was crazy and cool and not expected. Yeah, and from our end too, it was just seeing all that kind of great. And I'm curious, kind of a corollary of that, is the SMS iMessage stuff that's been kind of coming to a head lately. Is this a sign that it's been fixed? If they're figuring out how to get that work? Or is it going to be even worse? Yeah, no, they even took a swipe at SMS users during the conference, right, Dieter? Yeah, it was like people who bought Android phones by mistake. Tim said that once. And just people that you hate those green messages on the iPhone. The Messages app in general is a really interesting section of the keynote because not only is not only are they letting you use message from your desktop with texting, but they've added a whole bunch of other features. So they've added the ability to share your location. They've improved the ability to send voice messages and short video messages. You can just tap on a button to actually record a voice message or tap on a button to just speak out what you want to say. And they also added quick reply things so using natural language prediction can guess what your next word is going to be. So from my perspective that seems really interesting because they're not just taking on a general messaging client, they're actually going after other messaging apps like Facebook Messenger. I guess maybe even Snapchat since you can destroy stuff, but that seems like a stretch to me. And maybe WhatsApp. It really feels like a much more full-featured messaging app and the sort of thing I can actually see myself using. Yeah, actually, Dieter, go back to that because I was trying to watch the stream. I might have missed something. Some things auto self-destruct, some things don't. What is the... Where does that fall? Sorry, I forgot to say that, Ross. Can you repeat that again, Ross? What auto self-destructs, what doesn't? It wasn't kind of clear to me. Maybe I just missed it on the stream. The audio stays there, the video stays there. Yeah, it wasn't clear to me either, actually. They glossed over it. I think you can set stuff to slowly degrade and disappear, but we'll have all week to actually figure that stuff out and then we'll have the beta when it comes and the actual release this fall. So we'll see. But I don't think that it's fair to think of it in the same class as Snapchat regardless of what the auto-destruct messages features are. I think it's much better to think of it as a competitor to say Facebook Messenger or WhatsApp. Well, there's also that... The name of it escapes me, but there's that enterprise class Snapchat. It's like Snapchat for adults. Tinder? No, it has absolutely nothing to do with Tinder. Okay, sorry. By the way, Tinder got a name drop in the intro video. Having people talk about how amazing developers are. They had a guy like, Tinder is the best. It was hilarious. Yeah, and then they kind of held on him for a second like, are you going to say anything else about Tinder? Like, how are you going to use it? Nope. All right, moving on. Speaking of Tinder, we just need to wrap in a minute. Any final thoughts from the keynote? My final thought is I'm really impressed that they're releasing the 10.10 beta to the public. This feels like a much more open, much more accessible Apple. And the fact that they're joking around way more and they are releasing a beta to just regular users sort of admitting that people want to get in on this stuff early is a really good sign that Apple's opening up a lot. Yeah. Awesome, Dieter. Thank you so much. Yep, thanks, guys. And I think that is, I guess, one of the threads that we should kind of open up on because Apple has a lot more open in so many ways. These apps are more open. OS X feels a little more open. The keynote feels more open. It feels more accessible. Yeah. And to be fair, at the developers conference, I think that they've always been a little bit more open than they are at the consumer facing events because these are their people, right? They're the people that they need to bring with them on this journey to apps, for lack of a better phrase. So being more open and direct and kind of friendly and jokey with them is natural. But this event in particular felt a half notch different than usual in a good way. It was entertaining. It did. And actually, in another sense, too, it's a half notch toward the kind of developer centric. We've seen other WWDC pass. Of course, they are developer focused, but they also have a notch to consumers. Here's new hardware. Here's the iPhone 4. And this time, it's like, we're going to code on stage. Just make a 2D game. Why not? We're going to show you how it is. This isn't like always expected Google I.O. for one of the three, four days of conferences. But this is kind of like where Apple's going to go first. We're going to make jokes that developers love, multi-threaded rope. If we're going to make a little silly Photoshop things, just kind of jump around. And if we're also going to show the stuff in action, actually programming in action, like that is a different kind of Apple. It's one that's catering not to every audience, but to a very specific audience with this. And to that point, going back to what I said at the beginning of this, I think we're in for a really busy second half for Apple. We're going to see, I have to believe, at least three events. They have to do an iPhone event. They have to do an iWatch event. I can't imagine they would want to bundle two events that big, maybe, but probably not. They're going to have to talk Retina MacBook Air. They're going to have to talk iPad. And they might have to talk Apple TV. How do you fit five major product shifts for them into the span of six months? I don't know. Not to mention, in the next six to 12 months, we're going to see something about Apple Beats and all that kind of collaboration. That has to be more than just these sign-on dotted lines, because we don't know what that means yet. Right. And of course, what they typically do is they show 90% of the next version of iOS, either in a dedicated event or at WDC. And then at the time of the announcement of the next iPhone is when they show that other 10%. Right. Right? I think last year it was Touch ID was sort of the big reveal when they announced the 5S. This year, clearly, there will be some additional 10%, so to speak, that they show at the time of the iPhone 6. Might be a new screen resolution for the bigger displays. It might be who knows? Something we haven't even thought of. Yeah. The big rumors that didn't happen this time, of course, were transit and Google... Sorry. Transit and Apple Maps, excuse me. Right. From their HopStop acquisition. Exactly. You know, they got the notifications presumably from the Q acquisition, maybe. We'll see. And then also, of course, multitasking with the iPad, which has been rumored a lot lately, was not likely going to make this, of course, but that's something you can show later this year. Yeah. Are you hedging on the iWatch and the Apple TV unveils? Any of that stuff? As being 2014 announces? Yes. iWatch is a lock for 2014, I think. I believe very strongly we're going to see that this year. Apple TV, I think, could easily slip into 2015, but at this point, it's just kind of like a running joke that there aren't apps for the Apple TV. Like at the very least, let me put Flappy Bird on Apple TV. Like it's such an easy win, right? We saw Amazon do it with Fire TV. Makes absolutely no sense that they would continue to lock independent developers out of that platform. So I think, again, I think it's just going to be a really busy second half for Apple. And I think if you look at even like what Eddie Q said at the Recode conference last week, or the Code conference from Recode, got it right now, which is, you know, 20 million Apple TVs, clearly not a hobby. Yeah. That's the most exciting product category. Clearly, we've got to figure out what the hell is tracking health data. So it's got to be something. And I'm just going to use a fuel band. So, yeah, I guess we'll see. But that's, you know, for us at least, that is kind of it for WWDC. Yeah. The big keynote. We're going to be obviously sticking around the whole week, talking to a lot of people, trying to get a little more information, especially on Swift, which is Swift and Metal, a shoo-in for making Apple TV apps work and games, of course. That's right. Everyone, thank you so much for joining us. Of course, Dieter Bohn is at Backlawn on Twitter. Chris is ZPower. I'm O-N-O Roscoe, no E. If you put the E in, it actually redirects you. Thank you, whoever did that. For all this information and more, check out theverge.com. Thank you, everyone, for joining us. And have a great day. Thanks, guys.