 Hey, welcome to the Vergecast for the week of August. I'm meanie head Paul Miller. I'm average man Neil Abdel. Just regular. Yeah, just regular D. Adequate. Adequate. Adequate. Adequate. Adequate. Adequate. Adequate. Adequate. Adequate. Adequate. Able to do a lot. What's up? My name is Paul Miller. I'm an average man Neil Abdel. Just regular. Adequate man Neil Abdel. Unleaded. 89 octane. Is it racist? A little bit. I read YouTube comments on one of my reviews today. You can't racist me right now. Brown vanilla Patel. That doesn't make any sense. What would our be, what would our, our be? Well, can we go to Arby's? What would our things be? So they have to be racist, but also like a- No, like vanilla, vanilla. If you're mean- If you are both a spice- What do you mean, mean face? Yeah, meany head? Meany head. So you'd be like vanilla with- No, no vanilla. Vanilla with- Why? Oh, right. What's up? Stop. I'm not talking, shut up. Why? Hey, and welcome to the Vergecast. This is going really good. Hey, and welcome to the Vergecast for the week of August 13th, 2012. I'm Josh Dupolsky. I'm Paul Miller. I'm Neil Ipatel. And we are back to bring you the week in technology culture, art, science culture, and culture culture. Yeah. Our four favorite types of culture. Yes. And what a week it's been, folks. In all categories. Cross the border. I would say, what's going on with this shot? I'm like off center and my head is cut off. I'm not going to say you guys back in the back room are doing a bad job. By the way, I see that you've removed your camera. Interestingly, on the week of the terrible shot on me, the camera facing those guys is gone. I'm doing this right now. Paul's a cameraman now, officially. I just saw this on the monitor and it's like, what? I feel so bad for the audio listener here because they can't see the, what I would describe as visual diarrhea of that shot. If we ever have visual problems, we should insert effects. No, we should insert like distortion and stuff to the voice so they can experience the vocal equivalent. If I sit all the way up, this is like too far away. You know that, right? Have you ever used a microphone before? Anybody here? Anyhow, this is the Verge cast. I think you can tell by listening to it. Also because you decided to listen to it. And you didn't get here by accident. No one's fooled by that act. So just stop it. No one's believing it. You got here on purpose. Everybody knows what you came for. Are you smoking crack? Sorry. I'm just making a lot of crack. Your honor, I'm not smoking crack. All right, should we talk about news? Everybody knows what you're doing here. You came to the Verge cast on purpose. You didn't accidentally hit play. So don't be surprised when you hear what I'm saying right now. That's that thing right there. Yeah. Craven just left. I think he may have had, now this shot looks weird. Go back to the shot of me. Sorry. This is not right. This is not right at all. I look like a muppet. I don't think that you can fix that with the camera angle. Well, that is true. I do naturally look like a muppet. That's a bit of a problem. What's up with that shot? Go back to that shot. What is this? Do you know what centered means? What's this thing over here? I mean, over here. What is this? What is that? It's like a fake. It's like a virtual black bar. It's a letter. Craig just picked up the whole camera. So bad. God, we have to cut all of this. Can we do, I love that. Can we do Josh's shot handheld the whole time? Can we do like a kind of get a law and order? Board identity, like shape and care. Like a law and order. Can you do a handheld? Can we see what that looks like? Oh God, this is the worst idea. You gotta like rack focus on some things. Can you do that? Yeah. And you don't have to know too much detail about somebody who's dead. Like for the true law and order effect. Oh. Like she was in here last night wearing a yellow shirt. You know, I didn't really know her that well. I mean, she'd come in here with that boyfriend of hers. Boy, was he annoying. They used to fight a lot. I was just trying to help them out when they came down here looking for their keys. But of course we couldn't find them. I mean, I run a laundromat. I'm not a genius. I don't know, man. I don't wanna diss people around laundromats. You're supposed to ask me questions about the crime. No, they never ask questions. How tall was he? Look, I was checking her out. I wasn't exactly looking at his height, if you know what I mean. We're shooting law and order in the bar, like two doors down from you right now. You're breaking the fourth wall. Yeah. Cover the white. Yeah. Let's end this terrible idea. Great job. Great, good, nice. That actually, I feel like we should do a live episode of the Vergecast with all handheld cameras. I will say that people making gifs out of that moment now in the chat. You don't know that. Yeah, I do. All right, anyhow, but there's a lot of stuff to talk about. Let's lead in with what we just referenced. Let's just get right into it. You wanna talk about the trial? Yeah, Judge Lucy Koh today during the Apple Samsung trial said, suggested that the, suggested in court that the Apple attorney might be smoking crack. Quote, quote. No way. Well, she said, unless you're smoking. Well, she said, it's cheap, but she suggested it was a possibility. Yeah. She said, can I hear it verbatim? Yeah, she said, unless you're smoking crack, there's no way you're gonna get to all those witnesses. That's great. To which attorney William Lee said, your honor, I'm not smoking crack. Really? Yes. That happened today. First, your honor, I'm not smoking crack. I can promise you that. That's good. Yeah. Basically, he was like, how did you know? Let me, so Samsung blew through its case really fast. Yeah, put this, can you explain this to us? Yeah, so the past two weeks have been, not this week, but the two weeks previous have mostly been Apple presenting its case. Samsung copied us. Then they're done. Apple says, we rest our case. And it's Samsung's turn. So Samsung has to argue that Apple's patents are invalid and that Apple's infringing some Samsung patents. They did that very quickly, actually, as it turned out. Is that good or bad? I don't know. Now, it's about cross-examining. They did that all that's done. Samsung rested its case. So what are they doing now? They're done. Both sides, I'm telling you. Both sides. So Apple went first. They say here. Give this man a chance to explain himself. I don't see how they can have more witnesses if they're all done. Hold on. So Apple goes first. They say, here's our case. Right? During that time, here's our witnesses, here's our evidence. Samsung gets to present, gets to cross-examine those witnesses. Then Apple's done. Then Samsung gets to bring out its own witnesses and its own evidence and say, here's our witnesses. And Apple gets to cross-examine them. That's done. Then Apple can call some rebuttal witnesses one last time to rebut Samsung's case. And then Samsung can do that again. So wait. I didn't know that was a thing. I didn't know there were rebuttals. One Samsung rebutts. No more rebuttals. Yeah. But Apple could be like, we got one more rebutt for this. It depends. So that could go on for quite some time. Well, it depends on how much crack you're smoking. Well, so it could go, exactly. Actually, that's about right. It could go on forever, except that Judge Ko is not interested in this trial going very long. More like KO. Kinda. Hey. You like that? I don't know if you're pointing because you didn't like it or you like it. No, it's good. I like it. Anyway, she gave both sides a hard limit of 25 hours. Yeah. To spend talking in the jury. That's like in court, because they only spend about four hours a day in court. Well, they spend tons of time in court, but in front of the jury, they only get 25 hours. They have 25 hours in front of the jury. Yeah. Which means like another week, probably. No, they're done. Of rebutt witnesses? Oh, you mean that was the 25 hours. It's happened. Okay, so then today. So then today, so they're both kind of running out of time. I don't know what the actual clock is at. No, can I ask you a question? Sorry, I don't mean to interrupt. Though that is my specialty, isn't it, everybody? What? I guess you're gonna say this. Just go ahead, just keep talking. A few days ago, they were both at 14 hours. So they only had 10 hours left. Right. It was a few days ago, I imagine they're both completely out of time now, or very close to it. So Samsung said, our case, we're done, we rest our case. Apple said, here's a list of 22 additional witnesses we'd like to call. Those are for rebuttals? The rebuttal witnesses. Okay, so they're not like. 22 witnesses. So there's not some strategy here where like Samsung like got through their stuff and made a strong case and they're like, we're done. And Apple just wants to like put some distance between like Samsung's closing stuff. No, that's kind of what they want to do. That is what they want to do. Yeah. So like, basically Samsung ended on a, for them probably like the highest note of the. Ideally, that's what you want to do. If they were playing this like straightforward, legit, they would have brought those witnesses right at the start. No, no, no, this is the procedure. But no. Is it typical to have a billion witnesses later on during the rebuttal? He's saying it's typical to have some rebuttals. Yes, no, it's absolutely typical for them to have some. And they did rebuttals. Yeah. And then Samsung did rebuttals? No, no, they both presented their primary cases. Right. And then Samsung. So Apple's turn, Samsung's turn, Apple's turn to rebut. Oh, right. That's where we're at. So we're at that point. We're at the Apple rebuttal. First rebuttal. Rebut one. Rebut. And Apple presented a 75 page briefing and a list of 22 witnesses. And the judge freaked out and said, this is completely unreasonable. You're wasting my time. Oh, and so she said, you both have, tell you what, I'm gonna give you guys 25 hours. Yep. And they've used most of that time. And you can do whatever you want with it. You can use it however you want. You can bring whatever witness you want. Yep. Within the 25 hour time. And so a few days ago. So there's the trial. Oh, right. So they're both pretty close to being out of that time. So the idea that you would have time to get through an additional 22 witnesses. That is crazy. And also. That's like months of. Every time Apple does anything, Samsung argues about it. Right. And anytime Samsung does anything, Apple argues about it. So the judge is basically saying, you're not gonna get to 22 witnesses. I'm not gonna sit here arguing about what Apple already win. Doesn't Apple just win already? Well, I have to say. I don't know. Samsung did a pretty good job this week of particularly today demonstrating that some of Apple's patents are invalid. Which by the way is kind of crazy, right? What do you mean? That's like a big deal. It's a huge deal. Like. Yesterday. If they're right and they get off the hook for this. Oh yeah, it's open season. I mean this is. I mean Apple. Apple has to worry about. It's over. It's open season on these things. They're not gonna get off though, are they? But the patent stuff is different than the trade dress stuff, right? Yeah, so yesterday. So this is the answer. We always talk. I feel like the trade dress stuff is unavoidable. It's right. I thought that's what this case. That's what makes this case so like meaty and important. And that's what it's about. But no, but what's interesting. There's that stuff and there's the UI interaction stuff. That's part of the patent. Yeah. But the UI interaction stuff. So what that says though is if they find, cause they can find for the trade dress stuff but not for the patent stuff. Yep. So if they find for the trade, to me by the way, the likely, maybe I'm wrong but it feels like the way it's gonna go is there's no way this jury is gonna be able to say with unequivocally based on what Samsung presented that they did violate the patents. But I think they can pretty much say unequivocally that they did violate. There are, that they did steal. So there's two options. Well the jury gets basically three, two questions they can yes or no to, right? They can say for each trade dress claim and each patent claim, this patent is valid, yes or no. Right. Or, and then if it's valid, this patent is infringed, yes or no. Oh, so they actually can say it's valid. They can say this patent is invalid. So they can say this patent is valid but not infringed or this patent is not valid. And so if they're infringing it, but it turns out it's invalid, it doesn't matter. So Samsung argued two things every time. And so the possibility here is that Samsung's in trouble because they did seriously copy the design and the look and everything like that. But that's like a one time you screwed up, now make everything look different and everybody does make stuff. And you have to pay some restitution. Well sure you have to pay. That's such the stuff. But that doesn't. Two and a half billion dollars. That doesn't change the whole market the way the patent stuff does. Well no, but that's, that's, and that's the really. And you know, we've always known that because Apple didn't sue HTC or Motorola for that trade dress stuff at all. Right. So what's really interesting here is that the message would be, and we don't know yet, because they haven't even, the trial's not even over. But. Go ahead and then I'll say the other thing. Okay. Well I was gonna say that my, the vibe I'm getting here is that if they, if it's the trade dress stuff and not the patent stuff. Yeah. I think people already have gone in the direction of we're not trying to copy. I think the days of trying to fool somebody into thinking it's an iPhone have come and gone. I hope so. I don't think that people go into stores anymore. I hardly fool people that things are iPhone. I think that visibility, I think, I think the visibility of Android has, yeah, it's gotten pretty high in the sense that people know it's not the iPhone. Especially now. But the patent stuff. The patent stuff is a huge deal. That's like make it look different, but go ahead and use that bounce patent. Yeah. Or go ahead and use the bounce effect. Yeah. Which is kind of a bigger deal. Make it, let's make it work different. Yeah. And that is really important. So. What are the patents? What are the patents? Well there's a tap to zoom. How do they argument? The big UI ones are. The big UI ones are tap to zoom and the bounce back, the scrolling. And how do they have compelling arguments? Not like the one where you select the phone number and it dials the phone. No, that's HTC. That's the HTC case. No, I know, but I'm just. It's not in this one. Oh, they're not in that one. Yeah. Even though those are in the Samsung documents. So this is what happened yesterday in the case, which was a big deal. So yesterday a judge said to both lawyers, look, if your goal was to show everyone in the world that you have an enormous amount of intellectual property and put them on notice, they shouldn't violate it. You've accomplished your goal. I want your CEOs to meet one more time and try to settle. Really? Yep. She said, please do it. And both sides agreed. So Tim Cook and the CEO of Samsung are gonna meet. That'll be fun. I'd like to be a fly on the wall for an hour. I mean, you know, it's. We, you know, we do it. We do special edition VergeCAD. So Brian and Matt and I spent an hour yesterday talking about the trial and very nitty-gritty detail. And you can listen to that. But basically the point is these sides both have so much to lose, right? So Samsung loses, they lose tons of money. They lose tons of credibility and they lose the ability to make these products as good as they can be because some of these patents, you know, the bounce back patent is like, whatever, you can do a different scrolling behavior, but tap to zoom is like a big deal. I don't understand tap to zoom. That's where you like double tap. Yeah. It zooms in on like that. That's like. And does that mean that. That's like core functionality. Does that mean that everybody. Just Samsung. So Samsung has been, they're on notice now. And again. And they have to take it out of all their products. Hold on, again, is it the implementation or the very fact that like when you tap twice on the screen, it zooms into the thing, no matter how you get at it. Well, technically it's the method that you do it. Which is the code. No, no, but so the patent is written so broadly that the method is detective, detect the contact and zoom in on appropriate. Like this is what's happening in the trial right now. There is. Literally what's happening in the trial right now is that both sides are calling experts who are like patent professors or engineering professors. So wait, I'm putting them on the witness stand. I want to be clear like. And they're giving them the device. You can double click on something to zoom into it on a computer. But it is a pretty specific idea because. No, no, so let me just tell you what's happening. I'm trying to, I'm just. So they make a big chart of the patent. What's written down in the patent. Yeah. And they put the professor of engineering or the professor of patent law on the stand. And they say, professor, here are the claims of the patent. Here's a Samsung device. Use the device and tell us what claims of the patent are showing up. And they literally like a light up the claim charts of the patent. And they say, this is happening. That's this part of the claim. Now I did this. That's this part of the claim. It's like a wheel of fortune. And like the jury goes to sleep. Like this happened in the Gorkul trial and it's happening. It's very technical. It's very dry. And that's just for, you know, Brian was saying yesterday, the jury's awake when they're talking about design and UI and stuff. When Samsung's talking about how the 3G radios connect to the network and they're bringing up source code, like the jury is like passed out. Yeah, I mean anybody would be. Just to be clear, the concept. This happened yesterday. The concept with the tap to zoom is this idea. I think it was pretty ingenious is that you double tap on a block of text or a photo and it goes to that. I mean, that's like. Nobody had done that before the iPhone. I think it's a pretty good idea. I think that's a good idea. So they showed it. So today, so again. Nobody's done it with a finger. No, no, no, no, not even with a cursor. Nobody double clicked on one thing and it zoomed in to the specific thing. Identifying this object. You're saying they didn't do that on Google Maps prior to the iPhone launch? I know what happened in the. Wait a second. They didn't do that on Google Maps prior to the iPhone launch? Well, if you double click on it. If you double click on it. So today in the trial, Samsung brought out. All week, Samsung has been bringing out old devices. The Mitsubishi diamond touch table, something else whose name I can never remember. They actually brought the devices. Brought the devices out and they put on their expert. And he said, this device came out before Apple's patent. And he went through the claim chart and said, look, it's doing what the patent does. The patent is invalid because of prior art. This is what happens. And it did the exact same thing. That's strong. It did the same thing where it zooms in that specific block of text. This is the whole goal. I've been led astray this whole time. You're thinking of something very specific where it identifies a column in a browser or something. That's not what this patent is, is it? Yeah, no, this patent. It's like an image and you double tap on it and it zooms the image. I think it's like, it's because going to that specific object that identifies it on a browser is pretty smart. They probably have a patent for finding the columns going to the. So again, the question for the jury is, was this patent obvious based on all this other stuff that happened? And is this a useful demonstration of prior art? They did that famous multi-touch demo at Ted, Jeff Han, remember it's a Ted talk. It was like a huge deal in like 2006. Oh, the guys that Apple bought? No, that's the percept, Apple bought finger works. This was a company called perceptive pixel that built the big scene. It's Jeff Han, he's doing, giving a Ted talk and talking about multi-touch. They showed the video, they brought it up, right? They said, look, these techniques have been in the industry. There were definitely things where this was happening before the iPhone. Samsung has been doing this. But what I'm saying is. To a jury that seems like really strong evidence. And that's actually what's really funny is last week there was a lot of outrage because people were like, your headlines are all favoring Apple. And it's like, dude, it's because Apple is leading the case right now. I had an email argument with a guy about it. And it's like, dude, this week, it's like, Samsung's in charge. He was like, I'm removing your site from my RSS reader because of your clear Apple bias. And it's like, dude, it's like Apple presenting its case. It's gonna feel pretty great to be back right now though. I was like, listen, I was like, listen, I know how you feel because I think Android does some really great stuff. I think both Apple and Samsung have produced great products. And it's depressing to see them get hammered the way. Samsung's getting hammered. I was like, they're getting hammered because Apple is a pretty good case. Like in this department. I'm sorry you're upset about it. Also because right now they're the ones making the case. It's like Apple's making its case. They're literally in charge. Of course it sounds like Apple's winning. I was like, listen. That's what their job is to make it sound like they're winning. I said to the guy, hold on. I said, I was like, Brian is reporting like literally what's happening in the, like it's what's happening in the courtroom. There's not, this is not like an opinion piece. Yeah. You know, it looks brutal because they were being pretty brutal because that is their job. Yeah, and now Samsung's doing it this week. Can I just put us on pause for one second? Yeah. It's really hot in here. Yeah, can we get the air. Is there anything we can do about that? Cause I might, I'm wilting. Anyway, so my. It's a wilting flower. I still. A beautiful wilting flower. Find it hard to believe that this case is continuing. You're supposed to say thank you and something. Thank you. He said, that's true. Modest Paul Miller. You have a hard time believing what I have. I mean, I, I, I said this yesterday. Thank you. That's fine. If you want to, again, if you want to get real into the legal nitty gritty, we'll watch the watch the special edition. It's it's two lawyers talking to Brian about what's going on in the courtroom. But I, I kind of believe that neither, neither sides of corporate executives believe that this trial is happening. And at the end of it, it will have severe consequences for either side. I believe it will have severe consequences. Yeah. I think it's still not real. I think it, to them it's theater and their lawyers have been kind of treating it like theater and the judge is about it. Yeah. Coast, in the middle. Because all this stuff has been theoretical for so long. Right. And I'm saying at the end of the day, if Samsung loses, then they have to pay a bunch of money. They have to change all their devices. They're on notice. They can't. If they lose in totality. Well, no, I mean, if they lose it all, I mean like, yeah. If they lose in the worst case scenario is bad. I mean, yeah. So that's real bad. Every, you know. But Apple's not gonna, what are they gonna do? I mean, they're not gonna. And on top of it, there's another trial in like three months. What is that? The one against the Galaxy Nexus. Apple versus Samsung, Galaxy Nexus trial. I feel like if this doesn't go Apple's way. But I'm saying like, if Samsung loses, that trial gets way harder. And that trial cuts with the Nexus, which ranks stock Android. That cuts way into the heart of it. And on the flip side. So I have huge, the worst case. And then the worst case for Apple is that it's open season on all the stuff that they're desperately trying to protect. What was the Nexus, the unified search? Yeah. That's like the main claim, right? That was the one that got the injunction. The injunction, which was then suspended. But so, you know, so what Apple has done is they've taken, they have all these patents and they're asserting one collection against this stuff. And they're asserting another collection. They clearly went through their list and they said, we can find these things in all of these devices, from all these, who are our biggest targets? And who are we gonna go after, instead of suing who we really wanna sue, Google. Yep. I mean, the next trial is the trial against Google. What's crazy to me is that, there is no trial. There's a lot of talk, by the way, that Google, there will be another trial. But they haven't. It's on the books. For them and Google. No, not for Google. It was when HTC. HTC and then, you know, Google owned Motorola, but the judge threw the case out. Right, that's out. That's out. So that was going to be the Apple versus Google. I feel like, I mean, I don't know. I have trouble seeing how this is like. I think they're gonna settle. I think the jury is gonna go away. I have trouble seeing how this, how this. I mean, I understand where Apple's coming from. They wanna protect the things that they believe are theirs, you know? But it also feels like there's a part of this, where it's like, we wanna hurt competition. Yeah. You know, we wanna protect our stuff, but there's also like a little bit of. Well, I think there was that right at the top of this. I remember you had, you were very angry. You thought Apple was just trying to hurt. And I think a lot of readers saw that too. I think. I still do think that's the. But some of this evidence. I mean, I think Apple has more visibility into Samsung's internal dealings. I've never, I've never rooting for Samsung on the, I believe that they did rip off and much by the way, I think to their, to the detriment of their Android. And what's a fair. I think they ripped off a bunch of Apple stuff. What's a fair penalty for that sort of rip off? Well, I think they should pay, you know, whatever. If they feel there's been losses due to it, if they feel like people were walking into a store and walking out with a. Yeah, but so, but the jury determines that penalty. No, I understand that. So I'm asking Josh, like. Oh, what, like a money amount? Or no, just like, yeah, how would that look like? Because you said, you know, what's the difference between Apple just trying to ruin Samsung's life and just hurt them because their competition. I think if they can demonstrate. Versus Apple getting. I think if they can demonstrate and they obviously can in some way, you know, look, Samsung sales during a certain period with devices, we know that they were being marketed in stores as you know, it's basically an iPhone or whatever. They can demonstrate some monetary amount. Right. And so you think that should be. But that's what they're doing. I think, yes. But I'm asking Josh's opinion of, of how much punishment is warranted for this sort of thing. Is it two times that amount? Like, I mean, if, if someone comes in, like steals a guitar from me, I don't just get that dollar sum right back from them. Like there are other penalties for the fact that they've stolen, you know, it's not just. I think that, I think the, Oh, I don't know how to calculate that. I have no idea. Could it be calculated or should it? No, so can I just say, can I point this out? Earlier this week, Apple's expert from their accounting firm was on the stand. They were figuring, trying to figure out damages. And he said, well, look, it's not just me in a room doing a bunch of numbers. The whole firm is working on this. It took us months. It cost us $1.75 million just to, just to calculate how much Samsung owes Apple. Right. Which is insane. It's like 2.5 billion. 2.25 billion dollars. But it costs, just to calculate, just to get to 2.25 billion dollars. I get that. Well, they'll cost a hundred. Believe me, that 1.75 is going to be in the number too. Well, I'm just saying, it's just ridiculous. Like, I mean, that's. Apple ain't paying if they, if they win. Right. Let me put you that way. I believe, I mean, I, to your point, like there is, Apple wants to hurt for competition. And there's Apple can prove that Samsung copied and they're owed some money because there's copying. But that's the place where. But how do you, how, you can't, the mechanism for both of those things is the same. Well, I think the place, I think the, well. Cause you have to. I think there's a. You have to tell somebody that they copied. You have to prove your case. No, no, I think there's a philosophical. I think that you have to make a philis, you have to ask yourself. Yeah. Did it, Samsung sell phones on the strength of the bounce at the bottom of the, was it more like the iPhone a little bit, but you know, it was a lot more like the iPhone, the icons being identical and like the keyboard being identical and like the notifications looking identical and the bubbles in the IM window or whatever. But that's part of this case. No, no, hold on. But that stuff is separate from the patent. As we just said, they can say that like the bounce was similar and they copied, but they're also saying that they infringed on the, on this pattern. Right. So again, the grand scheme of things. And I'm saying in the grand scheme of things, you have to, Apple is, you have to say, are you going after the things that you believe were like the, where the hurt came from or the things that are like, you can go after because they're there. Like, is it, is it in the industry's best interest to go after HTC or Samsung for the unified search patent? Right. As if the unified search were selling their phones. Right. Because it's not selling their phones. You know, Apple, but again, so. Earlier in the case, Apple. Nor the bounce at the end of the menu. They put in, this was, you know, to me this is the most insane part of the case. They put the witness on the stand and said, the bounce patent is worth $32 for Samsung phone. Consumers would pay more, $32 more for a Samsung phone with our bounce fee. And I said, that's impossible. So that's like, that's wrong. That's an impossible number to calculate. That's an absurd number, but it is hard to argue that like, no, the bounce thing was totally obvious. And. No, no, no, forget about arguing that. The question you have to argue is not whether it was obvious. You have to argue it. I mean, what I would think should be argued is, was the bounce, if the bounce is worth 32, what's the stealing the icons worth? That people actually see. Right. The things that they actually, what's stealing the rim of the iPhone 3G? Right, no, but it's all, I think copying an iTunes icon is just like copying a bounce. But I'm saying they're separate pieces. There's the copying of the look. And I know these are put in different parts. I'm saying, but what I'm saying is like, can you protect your look and feel and like what you're, which is the majority of this case seems to be about to me, seems to be about like the trade dress stuff. Can you protect that? And also. If Apple's case against HTC goes to trial, it won't be like this case. Yeah, what is the HTC case on? That's just patents, right? If Apple's case to Motorola had gotten a trial. That's why. That's why that's really interesting. That's really interesting to me just because it, this is really muddled up in the fact that Apple or that, you know, Samsung had a side by side chart of iPhone and, you know, like, I feel like you should be heavily, heavily penalized for having a side by side chart and copying your competitor's product and putting that on the market. That's pretty sinister. That's a smoking gun really. If you're HTC and you're just trying to figure out a way to make a good phone and some of your stuff ends up being like Apple. But they're going to find. Then that's a very different argument. But you don't think they're going to uncover the HTC side by side chart where they're like. So here's the thing. I think this is really interesting is, again, people want more of this. There's so much more of it. Really, really interesting. Well, no, I mean, look, Apple produced all these charts. 100 page documents of like, we should make our product more like the iPhone. And Samsung said, this is just industry standard work. Samsung never produced that same chart from Apple. Well. It just didn't happen. Apple's chart is probably a lot harder to get. No. What do you mean? They have to produce it. They do. Yes. But how can they know if they. Have you ever seen my cousin Vinny? But how do they. How do they. Like they have. It's legally obligatory. But how do they know what to ask for? What do you mean? Like they just say, do you have any things like this? Their lawyers are professionals that you know, you can give. No, but I'm saying. If you're in discovery, I can hand you. You and I are suing each other, which is happening very soon. Yes. I can hand you. For sexual harassment. I can hand you search terms and say, give me all documents that match these. So Samsung went to Apple and said, we want any competitive analysis of products. We want to see them. Any competitive analysis of mobile products. And that's where they found the Sony stuff. And a lot of them turned up. That's where they found the Sony stuff. Yeah. And the other business. Well, yeah. I nobody's surprised that Apple didn't copy Samsung. But I'm saying like that. Or anybody else. It's just funny. Well, they did copy Samsung. Samsung's argument was everybody does this. But they never produced the document that showed Apple. I think if Samsung had produced that document, they would be walking away from the whole thing. I think that the, and we should move on probably. You probably all talked out on this. But I think that it's less compelling. The patent stuff that they're accusing them of is a lot less compelling to my eyes. To like, yeah. To the layman sort of. To the trade dress stuff. The trade dress stuff is, that's the meat. That's what makes this one like special and a big deal. Speaking of trade dress. Speaking of trade dress, it's the new. A product that was modified in appearance specifically to avoid Apple's trade dress. Really? And I have to say really looks. Man, that gray around the border really reminds me. He's holding. I actually don't know why they kept this. I'm holding the Galaxy. In case you're wondering, he's holding the Galaxy Note 10.1. Should we just, do we want, so. What's on our list? Is this on our list? Using a stylus with pressure sensitivity on a tablet is one of my dreams. We had a, you and I had a dream moment with this thing. Dreams in life. And I did it. I had that moment and it was great. And I'm pretty much done, but it was great. So, Neal I did a review of this and he gave it a 5.3. 5.4. 5.4. 5.4. And it is actually the performance of the device. Just watch. They're showing it there on the video. Yeah, but that's. No, actually can I do. It's not all about swiping. Can I do a demo? Neal, I want to do a live. On a tablet. It's not just a demo. Can I do a demo? The performance is not. Was not good on his model. Is it, yeah. And the screen looks terrible. Am I crazy? The screen's awful. I mean, it's fine. It will, it can track your stylus even when you're hovering. Ultimately this device is, let's forget it's an Android tablet and not have it compete against Android tablets. Cause it sounds like it does a bad job of that. But as a thing. It's a great tech demo. What shall it compete against? No, as a, it doesn't have much competition as something with a pressure sensitive stylus. Can I just. And I think if you're a serious artist you need to pressure. So in our video, because I took the thing. This is your only choice. I took the thing to the office to shoot our video without the charger the other day. Tilt it a little bit forward. So while we were. There's no video assistance. Smart stay is not able to detect your eyes. So. There we go. There was a lot of question over whether I had power saving on. Hold on. There you go. I gotta do some stuff. Hold on. I gotta. Don't worry. You're not helping. This is the worst demo I've ever seen. I don't even know what you're doing. I don't know what I did either. So look. Do you have power? Say it's ridiculous. No. So I'm going to just confirm. He has no power saving on. So look, you can see it. It's not on. Well, how? Okay. It's this icon. It's not lit up. But it doesn't matter. The recycle button. It's the recycle button. I'm going to open. What are you trying to say? Oh, we should demonstrate the performance is bad. Even with nobody. Nobody thinks you're lying. Everyone thinks I'm lying. Why would you lie about it? Did you talk about the blue? Oh God, I talked about the bloop sounds. Hey, did you show the cool picture I made? Gizmodo gave it a two and a half. So this is multi-scroll. Out of how many? Who else rated it? Did anybody else do a review? I don't know if anybody else rated it. Two and a half out of. There's email. Five, I guess. All right. I just want to show this. I just had. Which would be a, by the way. Power saving not on. Paul, for us that would be a five. Yeah. Here I am trying to scroll here. I got it. And it's not working. And it's not working. Look at that. Look at that scrolling. It's not working. Look at the scrolling. Power saving doesn't matter guys. Oh, there it goes. Let me try it. Let me try. Maybe it's not very good at. Maybe I'm not very good at scrolling. Oh look, it's working here. Oh, it's happening. I want to. Wait. Yeah, that sucks. That's really bad. Look. Shame on you Samsung. I hope you lose your trial. Oh God, Paul. Seems okay to me. You lie. Looks like you're a liar after all. Just show the picture I made. The thing is I wish I had color. This is one of the worst moments of our podcast. People asked me to do it. I wanted to do it. So Neelai stands behind his Galaxy Note review. And he feels. Have fun. Look, I think the pen is a great idea. I'm very. It's an amazing idea. I'm very high on silencer. You should have a matte screen by the way if you're gonna do a pen style. It's just FYI. Well, you let Samsung know. I think they had to change that to make it extra glossy so they didn't violate any. Well look. I'm very high on the idea that you should have a super precise stylus on your tablet. Yeah, look at this. I think that's great. I'm high on it too. It is amazing. I mean that. Oh, that's great. That's so cool. The problem is that. Oh my gosh. That app is. Why are you holding it? Why aren't you just doing it? The video looks so good. You're just watching the video? No, I'm just saying that the thing that you were just doing. You know, sketching on it is so exciting to be able to see finally on one of these tablets. Right, because I think iPad styluses are all cheap hacks. They're bogus. Right, they're like the IR blaster of like stylus technology. Like they're lame. And I think you should have a stylus. I was shocked when it cut back to live there. Yeah. You should have a stylus. You should have a stylus. But in order to have a stylus, you need to make a good Android tablet. So the point is. Samsung's Android tablet is the Galaxy Tab 2, which is not a good Android tablet. Nobody's ever argued that it's a good Android tablet. I can tell you this. Google, they made a Nexus 7. The Nexus 7 is great. You know what I thought this would be? I thought this would be two Nexus 7s with a pen. Yeah. That's what I wanted. That's amazing. Like that is a great product. And that's not it. This multi-screen stuff is like, why do I want to use? I don't know. I'll be honest. Can I tell you? Actually, I thought about you, Paul, when I wrote this part of the review. The multi-screen isn't regular apps. It's Samsung's special apps. Right. So you can't use Chrome. You have to use their version of the browser. Right. Which they've renamed internet. They just renamed. It's just called, it's just an icon that says internet. Why not just call it browser? I don't know. It's like one of those like Samsung moments where it's like we made a change. They should call it internet.com. I want a browser called dot com. Only goes to dot com. I'm sorry. No, it's like, why don't you make that change? It's just a little faster. And like, do you believe like you're the president, you know, you're the product manager of the note. And you're looking at it. You're like, you know what? I don't think people buying a $500 tablet that supports a stylus know what a browser is. Let's rename that internet. Like it's just one of those. I'm just so excited about the stylus. I have no surprise. No, it's not any bit of surprise that this is not the product. I will say this. Samsung, there's been so many questions over whether I had a faulty unit or an old software build. Samsung is sending me another one. Cause we, David and I requested another one. We're going to do side by side comparison. And we will, if for some miracle. Don't hold me to that. Samsung's review. Samsung's like PR people tested a review unit and then gave us a faulty one. It's not like it came out of the ether. Then I will, we will update through. It's a real unit. Yeah. All right, what else is happening in the news? What else is going on in this news? You wrote a piece about rim. Windows 8 came out. I wrote a piece about rim. I met with rim. Yeah. With Torsten Heinz, who is ridiculously tall. Yeah. I'm 6'4. So he's like 6'7 or something. Right. I was surprised when he got in front of me. I was like, this is messed up. I feel like a hobbit. Which is not a normal feeling for me. Anyhow, I sat down with Torsten and a couple of other executives and they showed me the new Blackberry phones. I saw the new software. I used it. How is it? It's early still. I mean, they said they're moving into beta, but they're gonna, I think the time that they're at, they asked for basically from now to Q1 or whatever. Yeah. Of 2013 is, will be, you know, they'll do a lot of polishing in that period. I think there's some really interesting ideas. I mean, we've seen a lot of this stuff that they've already, that they've implemented where it's like the peaking and the flowing. You know, they showed it at a Blackberry World or one of these events. I can't remember. It's interesting. It'll be really interesting to see if people want to, it requires a, it's web OS-ish in the sense that it requires like a set of gesture. It's like- They're not obvious. You need to know some gestures for it. And they're not, I wouldn't describe them as obvious in any way. But Windows 8 has that kind of. Yes. And I would say that there's also a learning curve. That was a huge good thing. And when I tested, when I first tested Windows 8 on a tablet, on that Samsung tablet, I was like, how do I get things that I need? Which is not a great feeling. I gotta say- But you know, if somebody gave you an Android phone right now I'm sure you'd feel the same way. Yeah. No, I think in theory- I mean, if you had never used one. Yeah. No. Innovation can be scary. I think if someone gave me an Android phone right now, I'd suck at it. The Tupolsky story. The other day I- Innovation can be scary. The Joshua Tupolsky story. The Joshua Tupolsky story. That's good. That's good. Someone gave me an iPhone the other day and I was trying to get up the- Hey, you're not allowed to use that. The multitasking bar. And I was trying to do multi-touch, like the gestures that you use on the iPad. It's been so long, you're like, how do I open? Yeah, so I remembered later. Double tap. But- Do you remember what double tap used to be? Double tap was something else originally. What was it? You know, it brought up the music player controls. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no. Yeah. No. That's what I had an answer to. It did something else. Double tap did something else originally. Are you asking this- Like iPhone version one, double tap did something else. And I can't- Did you customize it to pull up a camera? No. No. Do you know what it is? I can't think of what it is. That's what I'm saying. So, I mean- Somebody's gonna say it, I'm gonna remember. Everyone is saying music player. That's the only one that's been involved. No, it was something else. It was definitely something else. So after you'd unlock it and then you'd double tap. It was like in use, double tap with something else. God, I wish I could remember. No, it wasn't searched. They didn't come to the iPhone until later. Did it pull up the phone or something? Like your contact list? Oh, yes. Favorites. Double tap would take you to your starred phone numbers. And it was super convenient because one of the hardest things to do on an iPhone is make a phone call. I gotta say, my dumb phone is- Double tap used to take you to your starred, whatever you call them. They're not starred, they're like favorite contacts. My dumb phone is so quick to getting to calling people. Calling back people who just called me or getting to the address book or just dial a number. Well, we should all have dumb phones. It's really great. Someday when we're all wearing project glass- I feel like there's something- We'll all have dumb phones? Well, you'll have a regular phone just for calls and then you'll have your project glass, everything else. To be a super creep wager, always taking pictures. Yeah. Yeah. Go on, Paul. I think there's something to a BlackBerry user that having mysterious, exciting gestures, if they're actually powerful and super useful, like they'll like be into that. Because they are- It's already sort of like a special club that's more productive than other people. I think that appeals to that sort of person. They are going for, they've said this repeatedly and they said it again in this meeting, like they want to focus on these power users who are just like, want to move quickly, get in, get out, get on with their lives. They're just blazing. But I do think there is this- No, they don't get out. They never get out. They're always in. Yeah. But I will say this. I mean, I use the QWERTY a little bit and it's got a bigger screen than the Bold. They said today that it's 720 by 720. They said yesterday, they announced that specs- What are the basic- I have no idea what they're actually going to ship. They have a touch, they're a touch and a QWERTY to start with. Like an iPhone and a Bold. Like an iPhone and a Bold. But the Bold has like a larger screen, no buttons. QWERTY keyboard instead of- No buttons other than- Instead of the curve. You know how the Bold like has the curved silver things across the keyboard? These are like straight. It's nice. It's a nice QWERTY phone. If they could pull it off and get the dev support- They still have a little thumb pad? There's no thumb pad. It's all touch. If they can pull it off and get the dev support, and get back- And get back- Two gigantic- A billion dollars. But look, I'm telling you that they still have, they're still in play. And so you enjoy using them. I mean, I don't believe in them. I don't believe that, I'm not like going like, yeah, they're going to be back. I don't know one way or the other. I'm not saying like, I'm a believer. But it's not like no chance in hell. They're in play globally. Okay. That's real. They're still in play in the US, but dropping like a lead balloon. Yeah. And it's a while before this thing happens. But I think that like- A lead balloon. Is that a thing? That's a thing. It's not a thing, but it's a saying. Lead balloon. You've never heard that before? No. It's like a balloon that's made of lead. Yeah, but if it's a balloon, if it's a balloon, it still has like hot air in it. Someone in their chat, look up the origins of lead balloon. A brick of lead would fall faster than a balloon of lead. If you had the internet, you could check out what it means right now, but you can't, dude. You're stuck not knowing anything. I have a dictionary on my Mac. Oh yeah, why don't you go run back to your Mac. Wherever it is. I don't know where I'm- It's my apartment. I don't know where I'm thumbsing you to. No, that's pretty good. No, just pull the thumb back. There you go. Go right back to your Mac. Yeah. I don't know why I'm being so mean to you. You're a lot of the man. Anyhow, but I think there is like, it's a compelling, there are people who do still love their Blackberry for some reason. And I do think, you know, but they've tried this a bunch of times. I mean, it wasn't that long ago that we were hearing about how Blackberry 7 Super Apps and Blackberry, you know, people and, you know, super users. But they were talking about Super Apps and then delivering no new features. They have new features. This time they just need to work, but they have new features. They have, I mean, it's a new opera. It's CUNIX. You know, that's a thing. Let me ask you this. Yes. You say they're still in play. Well, they are in play currently. Sure. Microsoft is still trying to be in play. Microsoft is not. I don't think Microsoft has yet to be in play. I mean, they're, RIM is still in third place. You think they can show up in a year's time or whatever? No, I don't know about that. I'm not saying that they can't. But you think they have enough of a brand fan base. I think there is a possibility. You think Obama is gonna trade in? Well, I actually do think that things like governments and a lot of other enterprise that really value security and have no entrusted will remain. I don't think that governments, if they are, if our government is using BlackBerrys right now, which I firmly believe they are. They are. I don't think they're gonna switch to iPhones next year. People still ask me about if they should get a BlackBerry. It still has that cache of something that's more productive. And if you watch the newsroom, everybody's got a BlackBerry on it. If you watch Keeping Up With The Kardashians, they all have iPhones, but they also all have- I would like to just point out that your two examples of reality are the newsroom- I'm talking about pop culture. And Keeping Up With The Kardashians. That's a very watched show. Completely fictional account of like three years ago. But they have iPhones on Keeping Up With The Kardashians, but you know when they're getting stuff done, they got BlackBerrys. Never get anything done. Oh yeah, they get, Chris Jenner's making deals. She's like, what am I selling next? What child is up on the block next for sale? You know, Kylie's getting a new deal. She's on her BlackBerry typing about it. I can't do it anymore. We've talked, we have now officially hit my threshold of Kardashian content. Love the Kardashians. Kardashian content. You said it with a K. Speaking of Kardashian content, we reported on a Kardashian curse with a K, but nobody would let me use the K. I refused. You need to make it Kardashian curse. I refused. So apparently Kim Kardashian's cursed Eric Schmidt's mansion where she got married. Yeah. No way. She rented Eric Schmidt's mansion. She didn't actually curse it. Like she didn't show up. She's like put on like a witch's hat and like had like a bag of Kim Kardashian got married. Bad smelling herbs. Kim Kardashian got married to Chris. Bad smelling herbs? I don't know how you curse something. May I just, can I just finish? Kim Kardashian. Put definitely balls of hat. Yeah, no. If I have to say Kim Kardashian one more time. Do it. You will. Kim Kardashian got married to Chris Humphries at Eric Schmidt's mansion. I didn't know that. Yes, they rented it. Oh my God. Now. Did someone else get married and then get divorced? Now no one wants to rent it. To get married. It's been cursed. Why does the Eric Schmidt just live there instead of trying to rent it out? Oh, there you go. Look at this picture of the tea table. See, I wanted it to be. I'm sorry. By the way, I originally had an amazing headline which I cannot share with you. Yeah. Okay, here's what it was. It was, what was the headline? Schmidt's dream turns to, it rhymed. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It was Kardashian curse turns Schmidt's dream into something that rhymes with Schmidt's dream. And I'm going to let you guys, I'm going to let you, it was profane. I'm going to let you think about what it was. But we didn't use it. But I said, were people really mad about that story on the site? I didn't look at comments. There was a lot of confusion. Why is this on the first page? You know who was mad about it? That's the biggest breaking news story ever. Our staff who like, they literally responded. They're like, why are we making this? They responded to this idea with lots and lots of gifts. Like incredulousness. And then I finally, I said, TC, you have to do this. His immediate response is fine. But where do I file my resignation? I thought it was a fun story. I actually did. I look, we don't hit, you know, we hit, we go pretty wide and we're going to go even wider in the near future, I think on, you know, where we feel safe to go. Not just Kim Kardashian, but all the Kardashians. Kris Jenner, Kylie Jenner, even the Jenners. Bruce's sons. But I thought. Whatever the hell their names. They're all Bs. They are. It's like Brody, Bobby, Billy Eilish. I wish I was kidding, but I'm not. But I thought this one was like funny. I thought it was a funny story. It's a great story. And like, I was like, let's do it. Today when we saw the, it's like the crack quote, at first it was like, wait, when Brian heard the crack quote, like, are we covering this? Of course. But there's a bigger story behind the crack quote. But I think it is stunning. It's like, I don't know, it's like, I don't know what to say. It's like, I don't know what to say. It's like, I don't know what to say. It's like, I don't know what to say. It's like, I don't know what to say. It's like, I don't know what to say. It's like, I don't know what to say. It's like, I don't know what to say. It's like, I don't know what to say. It's like, I don't know what to say. It's like, I don't know what to say. It's like, I don't know what to say. It's like, I don't know what to say. It's like, I don't know what to say. It's like, I don't know what to say. It's like, I don't know what to say. 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