 Danny, it's Josh. Hi, how are you? Hey, it's T.Y. and we have Ross. And Joe, who wrote the article. We just, sorry, we just discovered, I was in meetings all day and we heard that you were upset about the piece that we wrote and wanted to get your thoughts on it. What are you thinking? The main thing is I understand that there's this segment of scammers who call this whole thing internet marketing and I love the piece that you're exposing and I think that stuff is terrible and it's just heartbreaking what people get involved with and how people get taken into that sort of stuff. But there is a much bigger, much more long-standing segment called internet marketing that is made up of people who do everything from social media marketing to the FBO to the Facebook, to the display advertising. They're all internet marketers. They all just under this umbrella term just like you have television marketers or print marketers or correct marketers. Right. So I saw that in my entire heart. I mean, I have an entire cycle of marketing on this about internet marketing. Right. But like who do you, who's an internet marketer that, I mean, give me an example of somebody that I don't know, you know, on the up and up, who's an internet marketer? Somebody you describe as an internet marketer who is like, you know, completely on the up and up. I'm just trying to understand who you are specifically talking about. You're, you've got people who do social media for you, right? Social media marketing? No, no. We have a guy who tweets sometimes. We have like our editors like man the Twitter account stuff. Okay, but that's marketing. You're running social media accounts as social media marketing and that's part of internet marketing. I mean, we're trying to get our, I mean, I don't want to call that marketing exactly. I mean, I see social media as an avenue to reach readers, right? Like when I think of it, I'm like, if people are on Twitter and see that we have written a story, they'll come and read the story. And I want that because I want people to read the stuff. I mean, it is, we're marketing our content, I guess, but we're not like, we don't pay someone to get the word out. You might not do that right now, but as you grow, there's an excellent chance you're going to be doing that sort of thing. We didn't do it at Engadget. I don't think we did. Yeah, we didn't do it at Engadget. I mean, we had a sales team that sold ads, but. Well, but that's advertising when you're selling it on your site. I mean, marketing is, I'm trying to help people discover our content. And sometimes marketing is done through paid, which is, you know, often referred to as paid marketing or so on. Sometimes it's done through, in the marketing world would be called earned marketing. It sounds weird, but the idea that you have somehow earned the idea that people would just freely mention your name. So, for example, a PR firm that helped get an article in the newspaper, I'm doing a really good pitch and you guys know this, right? You get paid. But PR firms are doing marketing. Right. But they can't, they can't guarantee that anything can happen. They can't force you to do anything, but you know the difference between a good PR person who helps you get the information paid versus, you know, some scumbag who comes along and thinking, hey, can I just buy an ad and then I'll go up on the site, you know, it doesn't work that way. Right. No, no. And I, sorry, go ahead. So, so you have this discipline of marketing and where, where it's probably sounding strange to you is because, you know, you guys aren't coming at it as thinking about it as marketing, but the people who perform these types of things, they are marketers. People over in Zag, right? You know, they make the skins that go on your phone, that sort of thing. Yeah. They have people who do both social media marketing and do certain agent optimization. You know, that is their job. They're hired to do that sort of stuff. Right. And they think about themselves as marketers. Sure. The ad tech, the ad tech conference that happens is, is filled with big companies and small companies of people who are doing internet marketing, you know, and so here's, here's my question to you. So these guys refer to themselves as internet marketers and I don't see, you know, what they, they, what they call, what they do, they call it internet marketing and in video after video, these guys are like, become an internet marketer. This is how we do internet marketing. This is the world of internet marketing, you know, over and over again, they use the phrase. So, so I guess like, I think what you might have, and I said this before, I feel like what, what, what we could have done and, and you know, maybe we'll add an addendum to this somewhere. And I'm not saying, I'm not putting words in Joe's mouth because it's his piece. Joe, Joe Flatley, who wrote it, is on the line as well. But you know, I think you're looking, you were looking for a paragraph somewhere that said, now look, there are on the up and up internet people who call themselves internet marketers, who do real internet marketing that are, you know, SEO people or marketers that are, that are, have real products and get paid real money by real clients to do specific things that are totally on the up and up. And these guys call themselves internet marketers, but what they're really doing is it's a pyramid scheme essentially. Yeah, I mean, they're not, you know, it's, they're just trying to get rich fast. Now, now, I guess the best equivalent I could say is, if it's just somebody is doing spam, email spam, right? But they're going around saying that they're an email marketer. You've got people who are actually doing actual email marketing, maintaining email lists for their companies and sending out offers to people that they're interacting with and so on, that would think, oh my God, I'm not a, I'm not a spammer. That's a completely different person. Right, well, but Joe, you know, but there is a fine line. Joe made a good point here, and I think that you'll have to agree that there are people who probably see themselves as legit. I mean, a lot of these guys seem to see themselves as legit and think that they're selling a service and don't actually seem to recognize that they're, that they are spamming, you know, they are spammers, right? Absolutely. All I can say is there's a much bigger group of people who are actually, I think, doing legitimate internet marketing that has nothing to do with the scam that has taken that name and wants to use it as well. So here's my question for you, and I think this is something that I'd really like to know, and I would like to, what is the legit internet marketing community doing, if anything, or what can they do about these guys co-opting this name, the term, and the idea of it? And the success, right? Because legit internet marketing can be successful. I think you do a search for internet marketing, you're not going to find, it's not, you're not, the first guys you see aren't going to be the up and up guys. The guys you're going to see are going to be Frank Kern and these like, Anthony Morrison and Get Rich Quick Scheme. So what is the internet marketing community, the legit marketing community doing, or what do you think they should they do to combat this? You know, this is the first time I actually encountered them calling themselves by this kind of a name. I mean, it really surprised me because the last time I was looking at, say, search for research and stuff on internet marketing was probably about six months ago, and I don't remember running into any of this stuff at all. So, you know, I don't know if it just happened and shifted to this more recently, and, or, you know, if it's been out there and it's just happened and grown, but, you know, this is my first guy going, what, they're calling themselves internet marketing? Where did that come from? Yeah. I mean, that's... And I'm seeing other people treating it like me going, why, I've never heard of this as well. So, you know, I suppose in part, internet marketers out there may not have been doing anything because these paths are just not really crossed. Right. Right. Joe, do you have a sense of how long they've been actually... I mean, because obviously these businesses come from... Sorry, are you on a plane right now, Danny? Yeah. We're going to get in like totally bald wind. It's very... Yeah, you're going to get kicked off the plane because of us. I'm already at the moment. Joe, Joe, Joe, do you know how long they've been using internet marketing specifically or kind of trending towards this? Well, I mean, obviously I only ever discovered it four or six months ago. Can we turn Danny down? Sorry, no, it's okay. You're good, Danny. We'll do it on our end. Go ahead, Joe. Four or six months ago, but a lot of this material, because they keep reusing the same material. You see YouTube videos from two, three, four years ago. It's internet marketing. Right. And also, internet marketing is like an umbrella term. The stuff is not new. Danny, this is Ross. Can I ask you a question? You've read the piece. Is there anyone that any person or group that we called out that you thought was unfair? Like in particular people, not the term itself, but like people, organizations we called out? No, I just was... What threw me off was coming in hearing that internet marketing was, you know, snake oil, because I just had not seen that term being used with these kinds of scams. And I've only seen that term used for legitimate stuff that I know. What term have you heard for these guys? Yeah, what would you call these guys? I mean, because what's interesting is that they've definitely been around and doing this for years. Calling themselves internet... Make money, work at home. I mean, you know, I would have to go back. I mean, you know, Joe, it sounds like he knows, you know, the history of how that word developed much better than I. These kinds of scams don't seem to be new. Maybe the names have changed. Right. And to the degree that the article raises awareness that there are people who may be actually confusing that internet marketing with, you know, broader discipline of internet marketing, that's great. I applaud that. It's just that there's no acknowledgement that there's this other kind of internet marketing. Yeah, I think... I mean, when I first got on to the internet in like 1995, I was part of the iNet marketing mailing list. That was how we all talked to each other and we were all people who were trying to help everybody else understand how we were going to be getting onto the internet. Right. And how we were going to be, you know, marketing websites and how we were going to... Part of the marketing was building websites for people. Right. Because you couldn't, you know... That's how far back I know of internet marketing going as a name, as a pipe to the internet. Right. That's interesting. I mean, I think that, you know, I get what you're saying and I think that there's probably some room for... I mean, it feels like the thing is, the problem is that these guys call themselves internet marketers. I think that the idea that it's a blanket, that all internet marketers are like these guys is obviously a problem. That wasn't the point. I don't think that was the point of Joe's piece at all, right? We were kind of focusing on particular people and stories. I can see how... Yeah, we used like, what, four or six people to kind of as extreme cartoonish illustrations. But like, not every single person in the story, not every scammer, not every con artist like operates in the exact same way. Not every person that uses their tactics is strictly using their tactics. A lot of them are legit. A lot of legit companies buy into that. Part of the problem is we had to define terms because everybody describes themselves differently and really tries to obfuscate what they're doing. So, internet marketer was the most universal. So, that's what we picked. I completely agree. I talked to quite a few people in the SEO world and in the legit world and they didn't identify themselves as internet marketers. They all seem to shy away from that. Yeah. I do feel like it does seem like there's a difference between you talking about PR and advertising and SEO. The term internet marketing is not a term I've ever associated with... Even with your site, internet marketing as a phrase is not something that like I think of at all. I guess there's this weird disconnect between on your side, there's this disconnect between what these guys are and being internet marketing on like the side of the more mainstream. I think there's a disconnect about the idea of internet marketing as a thing at all. That this is something you're associated with. I mean, when you talk about like somebody... What I'll say is, you know, for the tech meme, you'll see Matt Katz over Google expressing the same kind of surprise that I'm having. And he has lived in the dirtiest, darkest trenches of the internet. And, you know, there is nothing terrible he has not seen about marketing, having to run spam policing for Google. Right. And even he seemed to be surprised to go, what? Right. So I totally think it's fine that you use that term to apply it to the way that it's being used within that kind of genre, what those people are saying. I just think it would be really helpful if you explain that there's this whole other discipline of internet marketing. Sometimes it's called digital marketing. Sometimes it's called internet marketing. But there are people who do this range of activities. And if you look at the Wikipedia page, I mean, it explains this sort of stuff. That are completely distinct from the... I know, I know, it's Wikipedia, but actually they work that part off. I mean, for all we know, these guys... It's Wikipedia. Frank Kerr might have been hand editing the Wikipedia page. Yeah, they've been busy at it. You know what, Danny? I hear what you're saying, I know you're on a plane and you probably have to go soon, but I hear what you're saying and we'll discuss it. Maybe there's some way... Danny, if you just give me $1,000, I can make sure that I'll consult with you in the tea show. If you're getting on the $1,000 level, we've got a $500 package. Danny, do you work better with Visa or MasterCard? Because we want to get you in on the right level here. American Express, though, we just can't do. No, no, no. In all seriousness, all joking aside, I hear what you're saying. I think that that's totally legit. What you're saying is there's a segment of people who have a real job and it's not ripping people off. They do... Some of them clearly refer to themselves as internet marketers or else you wouldn't be upset about this. So maybe there's some way that we can clarify that in the piece. It may be one or two... You know what I mean? It may be as simple as saying, now look, there's a legitimate business called internet marketing. These guys are not it. And maybe we can point to your post and say Danny Sullivan wrote something about the legit internet marketing, but this is something else. Yeah. Go ahead. If you want. And I tone the post down a little bit because I was upset. Yeah. What did you refer to as all things TechCrunch? Which I have to say is the most bitter insult that's ever been delivered to me. I will say, Danny, just really on that one point, I will say if you look at us from launch day, we've been doing big pieces, thought pieces like this that aren't just about like gadgets. You know, one of our earliest pieces was Joe did this thing on survival condos. We've done those long form pieces on rim, which is like much more about the business side. We've done stuff on art and on music and on culture that are not. So, you know, like this is not a new thing for us. This is just an evolution of what we're doing. I think the features are all great. And one of the things that I find interesting is that I think your announcement went out in the new name and everything in November. And we launched our marketing, we launched our marketing lands in the same kind of way that we have long run search engine land, which is about search marketing. We've got people who do things beyond search engines with internet marketing. So we launched an internet marketing. Right. Really has something to do with this other kind of internet marketing. Right. Well, we're going to know, dude, I totally hear you on this. And I think that we're going to talk about and figure out if there's a way to get that just that clarify that point. Because I think that the fact is these guys are calling themselves internet marketers, and I think it almost helps to point out that what they think is internet marketing or what they're trying to sell people as internet marketing is clearly not the real business of internet marketing. So I think that's you know, I think that's a good point. And we'll talk about it and we'll figure something out. Well, I appreciate the time and sorry things got heated a bit. No, it's fine. I was like, what? No, we're not getting it. We don't get we don't get riled up. I'm actually glad to hear. I'm glad we got a chance to talk to you. Things really interesting to hear the other side of this, which is not evident. That's the thing. It's so crazy. That other side is like the voice has been drowned out by these guys. When you do a search for internet marketing, you don't get Danny Sullivan. You don't get that's not the first thing. I mean, maybe it is. You know, I don't know where where your site ranks, but it really is. These guys are drowning out what the industry you're talking about is. So maybe it's time to mount up against these dudes. Get lawyer up. Either that or maybe that if it grows that degree, you're going to have internet marketers say, hey, you know what? We're digital workers. We're something else. And they may very well do it. This may have woken up a lot of people who had no idea that they were even calling themselves that. So it's good. The clarification would be great if you guys decide you want to do it. I think that would help. And anyway, it's good. And the piece, I can't say enough, the piece was great in exposing that kind of stuff. And I think that you would find a ton of the legitimate internet marketers out there, if you will, want to endorse that same sort of thing to say, this is crap. You know, they should be able to be able to say, oh, but you're the same kind of crap. I think that was definitely not our goal. And we can draw a finer line, I think, pretty easily. So, Danny, thanks so much, and have a safe flight wherever you're going. And I hope that we talk again soon. Sounds good. Take care. Thanks very much. Bye-bye.