 Hello, and welcome to the Vergecast. Paul Miller is here. He's not wearing a sweater. Really disappointing Paul. Can I just put it on right now? Oh, but it's like, how is it that every time you're on the show you just run away for no reason? What do you mean run away? Remember last time we you were here? Yeah, we triumphant 100th Vergecast. Yeah, to end it. You just left. I went upstairs. That's not an answer. I think I went in. I went and got drinks with people. It was Halloween and I went to drinks. The show wasn't over yet. Oh, that during the show. Yeah, I'm going to spend this entire Vergecast just doing this the whole time. Also, Dieter Bone is here. Hi, and welcome to the Vergecast, the show where we don't wear sweaters ever. Never, never any sweaters. That's a great Weezer song. Wow. What? It is. Hi, welcome to the Vergecast. I'm going to start over. Hello and welcome to the Vergecast, the show about whatever. I'm Nila Patel. I'm Paul Miller and I'm Dieter Bone. Dieter Bone lives in New York City now. Yes, I do. I live in New York in Brooklyn. It's lovely. I've been here since Sunday. Yeah. Yeah. Live in life. Can't wait to get furniture. Yeah, that'll be pretty awesome. Do you feel like a New Yorker yet? No. Yeah, I don't know that I ever will. I'm looking forward to being the contrarian New Yorker that tells you that this is not the greatest city on earth. Oh, hey. Oh, God. Oh, God. I'm breaking it. Oh, God. No, I broke it. Oh, me lie. Why? These mic stands hate me so much. This is a perfect example of what's wrong with New York. Your mic stands don't stay up. You're not from San Francisco. No, guys, just put it off. Where are you from? Is it San Francisco? You're not from San Francisco. It's San Francisco, isn't it? No, that's not. It's fine. I'm going to talk into the microphone. It sounded like it said, listen to big will in the middle. This is starting really well. I mean, this is terrible. I would like to apologize to everyone. You hate New York. It's fine. Get over here. David Dieter is here. We're very excited to move to New York. There's only one left, one missing puzzle piece in my master plan. And you can address him directly at ZPower and ask him when he's moving to New York. Welcome to Vergecast, everybody. Okay, so a gigantic week of news. Lots of we have tons of stuff. There's like a pile. There's a pile of toys for camera over here. Almost can't see me like because of the pile of technology. Yeah, fresh. Here's how I'd like to structure this show. You just pick up stuff and we cut to reaction shots. Where do you want to start? Well, actually, we need to start. We need to start with the biggest news of the week and the biggest news of tomorrow, which the Xbox one is launching last week. It was all about PlayStation four. We covered it at length. People got very mad at me because I mentioned that the PS4 might be a better pure game console. And the Xbox one is like an ambitious other thing. I thought that was like the narrative since day one. No, no, no. But if you ask people in the Microsoft tribe, the narrative is that I hate everything. Enjoy may not exist. Well, the funny thing about that is that's true. That is also true. You know, the Microsoft tribe is full of very smart people, very perceptive folks. I feel like being a fan of a console is like being a fan of a president. So being a versus like being a fan of like you've got like this local representative and you help them get elected and you did door to door stuff. It's like you can own that. You could be a fan of that. You're my guy. Yeah, I got you a console. Really? It's like the price. It's like, yeah, you suck. Like you're going to go and you're going to go from fresh faced Barack Obama to old white haired angry looking Obama. It's fine. Right. Just doing it. Drone Wars. That's what concepts are like. Yeah. The Xbox one, by the way, has a drone army. So you played you were on Polygon's live stream yesterday. I was on Polygon's live stream yesterday. And Dieter knows nothing about anything. I know nothing about it. You play video games. I do play video games. I canceled my Xbox one order. So you're the one you're the one person who really did it. This is this is the longest standing troll in our comments right now is like any piece of news. It's like I canceled my preorder. Right. And then other people insist that that is either true or not true. I did it for really real. Although I did it mostly because I was frustrated at Microsoft's customer service. Wow. Which is terrible. I couldn't get him to change my shipping address since I just moved to Brooklyn. And then I realized that there's a couple of games that I'm interested in on Xbox. But really, like I've got eight games for the 360 that I haven't played yet. I just played Jet Set Radio. Yeah. Which is like a Dreamcast game on my Xbox 360. Like that's that's where I'm at with the backlog. Yeah. You know, I've got a lot of dreamcast, which is crazy. So yesterday I tweeted that you started a fight. The N64 was the best console launch of all time because of Mario 64, because of Mario 64, which was like an atomic bomb throughout the industry of like, oh, crap, this is so awesome and different and crazy. And I could not identify even a close second place like a console with a launch title. Yeah. People saw it, freaked out. They had to have it. And like the one that's far and away in my mind is Mario 64, the N64. Now, what's funny is that I got three pieces or two pieces of feedback and one one missing piece of feedback. So the two that I got consistently, the Dreamcast weirdly and then the Super Nintendo was Super Mario World, which is like you can make that argument. Yeah. What did Dreamcast launch with? I don't know, but lots of people brought the Dreamcast with that taxi game. I was not a Dreamcast person. But then the one I didn't hear at all, which I think is crazy, is the Wii. I expected to hear the Wii a lot because we launched this like Wii Sports. Yeah, but it launched this like a huge explosion of like this is the new video game. I mean, as far as like, but I didn't hear that at all. Successful launch titles, like money made by a launch title. I think you have to go Wii, but best game that's a launch title. I think that's more like, yeah, absolutely. But there's no there's no denying it. And there is there is something to that. Just that. Man, because I've been watching Mario 64 speedruns. The current world record for all hundred twenty something stars is a minute forty four. Yeah. What? No, no, no. A minute forty four. An hour forty four. It's a minute forty four and six pounds of cocaine. I apologize. I apologize. But like watching like like that. That's got like like like wall jumps and backflips and diving. Yeah, there's all these moves. You could ride on like a turtle shell and zoom around the level and you can get wings. You can shoot out of cannon. That was a game that introduced me to the concept of the camera in a game. Yeah, no. And like if you watch that game, you like I'm watching a stream, but you hear the sound effect every time he changes the camera. And what that's saying is like, hey, guys, there's cameras now. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. We're going to remind you of the sound effect that you can move the like. It's like they're so different and they innovated so much and put so much heart and passion and work into a launch title. They didn't come out with another Mario game until a million years later. Right. But the thing about that, it's like none of the launch titles for the PS4 or the Xbox One are even close. Yeah, like not even close. So here's ghosts. You really force that is Microsoft's for for that. That's like Microsoft's like a true real exclusive. Yeah. Big budget, huge game that other than what? Drive a Tars. Fortis. I mean, I played it. It's great. So one third of it is clearly a refinement of the last generation type of really of a Gran Turismo. Right. It's a refinement of a Gran Turismo formula. It's like a hyper accurate. Paul, wow. This is my phone. Should I take it? I don't think you should take. Paul, what is that? What was that ring tone? Like what kind of funky robot ring tone is going on? That's that's oh, my God. That's Rockapella. Everything in the studio is falling apart. That's that's Rockapella from Carbocer. Everybody Jordan's fixing the piece of paper that fell down, shocking me to my very core. Yeah, that was pretty terrifying. So did I make a mistake canceling my Xbox One? OK, so we should talk about the Xbox One. So, no, I don't think so. But for this reason, because it's not yet. Right. There will come a day when the Xbox One is like ready. That day is called Titanfall. Yeah, Titanfall release day. That's like March. But if you if you wait, if you're waiting on the game, it's like March and then you should definitely buy one. If you're waiting on all of the promise of the Xbox One, it's wildly TBD like they don't even want the consoles have not just like, you know, with this last generation, we saw a ton of innovation after release. Right. But both of these consoles have a ton of announced features that aren't in the console. Yeah. But pure potentiality is the guy. Well, I'm not for PS4. Streaming on the Xbox isn't there. Right. And then but the Xbox is also it's so weird when we were talking about something on the Polygon stream yesterday. It's so weird that when you talk to the people who made the Xbox, like the executives and the engineers, they're like, yeah, it's like a Windows PC. You know, we'll get there. You can port the apps really easy. Like don't it's all going to happen. Like we just got to figure out like the policies and procedures for running this app store. Like that's a big project. We weren't ready for it at launch. And but they're very clear that like Windows is there and they're going to do Windows things. And if you ask the PR, they're like, no, no, it's not a Windows PC. Yeah, right. That's and it's like, well, you've had PR problems since launch with this thing. Like every moment of the Xbox launch has been plagued by bad messaging or retracted messaging. And then you're like, so what is it? Huh? Yeah. And then, yeah. And then I flip a table. My but it is a PC. And like I open it up and expose the AMD GPU. I think it's really important because the fan is like the iFixit turned on today and it's like five inches across. It's gigantic. No, it's PC. It's a Windows PC. And they want to work well with developers. I think they do. This could have a billion ports in a week. Right. But if it's just a PC, that it has basically the same like rate of ports as like the Steam Box. Maybe a little slow. Well, no, but it's Windows. Like they're very clear that like they have taken complicated Windows apps and move them the Xbox platform in 24 hours. Like that's a thing that they say. The Xbox, the game part isn't straight Windows, though, right? Yeah, it's running operating systems or whatever they say. Well, yeah, there's a little three, but it's really two. There's the hypervisor and then there's like the game called the Xbox 720 side. Right. The new Xbox side. And then there's a Windows side. And the Windows side, as far as I can tell, is not being used in any substantive way outside of like running Skype, running the various media apps. Is that the games? I mean, I just think the the Steam Box, I mean, I was playing Jet Set Radio yesterday and that's like that was that's an HD remake of a Dreamcast game. That was also, I think, released for the Xbox. Just that Radio Future was released for the Xbox. And then Microsoft did a backwards compatibility patch for some Xbox games. Jet Set Radio Future was one of them. Like that has been such a weird, difficult, crazy thing. But now everything is x86. Yeah. And and I don't want I don't think there should have to be another breaking compatibility. And in fact, I think we should be able to get back a lot of these. I mean, if you look at Steam right now, you get more and more old games all the time. Like you get new games all the time and you get old games all the time. And then there's like good old games like playing games on a computer is getting better and better. Yeah. You get a larger library faster and faster. And I don't see what what they have to compete with that yet unless they're really going to. Well, this is the thing that I think is great. Here's my question. You mentioned x86. So both these consoles, to me, they feel a little bit rushed because there's like so much potential and, you know, all the features aren't ready yet. But they're coming and get ready for the games that are coming. And that's fine. They're like, look, consoles have a seven to 10 year cycle. And so it's OK that not everything is there at launch because this is a long game and in a couple of years things will be fine. And my question is, why? Why is that OK? Why is that OK? Why can't especially now that they're both on x86, why can't like we have a faster release cycle for these consoles going forward? And it's not like we have the sort of graphical leap that we had from the Xbox to Xbox 360. So Chris Grant's answer, because I asked him the same question about the PS4 last week. His answer to that is like, you've got to get the install base. So like unless you can somehow promise forwards compatibility, like next year, the next like Xbox two comes out. You can't ask what people want Xbox one. Right. You need this. You need this huge base overall over because the game developers need to sell to everybody. Well, the dream should be that like when I play a game on a brand new iPad, it's great. And when I play it on a slightly older iPad, it's the same game. It's the same install. But it just doesn't look quite as nice. Yeah. Like I would like to see them do that is your compatibility where they can get an Xbox plus. But the only thing about that is that I do think in what we saw with the PlayStation three, the Xbox 360. If you look at Grand Theft Auto five. Yeah. Versus a launch title. When you have an exact precise description of your target platform, you can wring so much more performance out of that. Then when you don't quite know what you're getting. Well, no, I mean, I. That's true. Right. And they will. Everybody from the game developers to platform vendors will tell you that. But what I think is more. At launch, particularly with the Xbox, they should have been more ready with this app side. They should have been more ready with Angry Birds and other weird stuff in like shown people like here's all this latent potential. Like we built a Windows app thing over here. There should have been more stuff for it, not just a bunch of media apps, which are effectively the same media apps you get on the 360 already. And I don't know why that is almost less. Yeah. The issue goes in there yet. Right. So like and like Twitter. Do we know the full story of how that other stuff is going to get on these consoles? What the app store. So, quote unquote. And they're in there. We're just working out. We got to get to launch. It's like but this is the key to your platform. Like it's not the TV stuff like that stuff isn't good. But the key to your platform is like to be honest, as somebody who doesn't really want to spend a thousand dollars right now to get two consoles and I didn't preorder. It's kind of a relief. Yeah. It's kind of nice. That there's nothing so compelling and amazing that I have to go get it. Like it's like, you know what? We'll just let those percolate for a little bit. I'll play Jet Set Radio. Yeah. And then, you know, David Pierce just bought a he bought a 360. That was his response to the launch was to buy a 360. And like I keep doing this thing. I'm on Amazon and like I'm buying used games for five dollars left and right. I never play any of them. Crazy. I've got the best 360 library of history. I've never played any of them. Right. Like, awesome. But it makes you feel better. God, I could have so much fun at my house if I would just have the time to play video games all day long. No. So have you played with any of the other stuff? The TV stuff? I know you talk about the TV stuff. Can I just say directly to the camera? I don't care. Yeah. It's a good thing. So I know that you're very, very, very mad at the Xbox One. I'm not mad right now. It's actually a joyful feeling. It's like it's like it's one of those like delightful like I told you. So you're happy to have something to hate. I own an IR repeater, an IR blaster. I love it. Why? Because I can use a Harmony One remote and I can. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You know what's on the other end of your IR repeater? Your eyes and brain. Right. But you see what's going on. Like, you can understand the interface. You're like pushing buttons to control it. It's not like a bunch of crazy ass macros. Right. IR blasters are great if there's a human brain on the other end. No, I mean, there's like macros to like activate the different components. Yeah, but those are like a bunch of power switches. If an Xbox One could like replace the Harmony One as my universal remote, I would actually be interested in that, even though I know the TV integration really sucks. Wait, but there's no way for it to do that. I mean, that's like the. Yes, there is. Buy Logitech. Right. But what is the mechanism by which it will replace your Harmony One? Yeah, fine. Then they'll own more little cables with IR blasters coming out of them. No, it's the it's the it's the other side. It's the two U.S. for your cable box. It's the navigating your DVR menus and knowing when it's missed the channel. It's never going to do that stuff. You know when your remote doesn't work and you like compensate for it. The Xbox has no ability to do that. Right. And until it does, it's screwed. Tell me something to make me happy. It's fun. I enjoy playing. I enjoy playing games on the Xbox One. I think all of this TV stuff is a huge waste of their energy. And that's why I definitely agree. Like, I wish they could take all of that out right now and sell for a hundred dollars. Sell for a hundred dollars less. That would be so huge for them. This is definitive proof. This is what I said when they announced it. Like they built the world's best Google TV. Right. And like they Microsoft was like, no, we didn't. And all the fans were like, no, it's going to be awesome. It's the world's best. This part of the Xbox is the world's best Google TV. Well, good for them. Yeah. It's really exciting. I think if you love Google TV. So those 10 guys are going to be super, super pumped. Everything else is like, why? I get why you want to do this, but it doesn't support surround sound. Right. Like they didn't even like table stakes. There are other parts of the Xbox experience. I mean the connect, it requires a very specific setup. I'm in the process of migrating all my like home media gear from behind my couch where my projector is to the front of the room. So that it can be. Radical. So they can be plugged into a connect. Like it requires like, I don't know, there are certain strictures. Like Microsoft has an idea in their head of how you do this stuff and there may be right for 75% of people. So you say there's no extension cables for the connect because there aren't any yet. I'm sure there will be third party ones. I'm not going to run a frigging connect cable 30 feet. Have you had good success with the Xbox one connect? Have you tried to use it? Yeah, I was doing some leaning. Oh yeah. The camera stuff is fine. It's really good at seeing you. It's terrible listening to me. Is it way better in the small short rooms? Cause I need to be. No, we were trying it on the polygon stream yesterday. We were trying it in studio B. We were right in front. I mean, I was basically yelling into the camera. Yeah. You don't have to be a million feet away anymore. But I think that the speech recognition is decent. I was upstairs trying out the Xbox one and I was turning up and down the volume because I didn't know where the TV remote was. That was fun. Yeah. That's cool to be able to do. And then when I left the room, I was going to go push the button to turn it off. I was like, Xbox will turn off or something like that. He just waves at it. Yeah, whatever you want to do is fine. And then I had to go turn off the TV. I've never once gotten Xbox on to turn anything on. Really? Just doesn't. Nope. And another cool thing is that the connect tracking of who's holding the controller. That's cool. All this stuff is cool. I was seeing some subtle stuff with that. I played Crimson Dragon and that... That game sucks. It's horrible. That watches me no matter what. So I was playing with Chris Plant. He's controlling the dragon and I'm doing the barrel rolls by going side to side. Do you ever think out loud when you say sentences like that? Like, what is my job? No. Never. Just checking. No self-reflection here. But in Forza, when he had the controller and I would try to go side to side, it wasn't detecting my lean. So it's clear that software developers have the ability to kind of see who has the controller and be smarter in that sense, which is cool. And then also when you set down the controller, like if you're watching a movie, it puts the controller in low power mode. So you're going to sit like the battery lasts forever. That's what the battery lasts forever. So they're doing so many little cool things. And I also just love... I think the controller is great too. I haven't played much with the PlayStation 4. Jumping out of a game instantly and then going into something else instantly. And I don't care if it's TV. I don't really want it to be my TV. But just jumping out and then saying something and you're into something else or snapping on a little web browser. All that stuff is great. I love that speed. My browser gets really slow when you're playing a game. Right now it's probably... I'm trying to think. If I'm playing Grand Theft Auto and I want to watch Netflix, that's probably 15 to 20 button presses on my current 360. That's crazy, but okay. Yeah. You'd have to hit the center button. By the way, it's a center button. It's a center button. Close the game. I learned. Confirm that you want to close the game. Move over to your apps. Go into apps and then go to Netflix. It's a lot of work. I learned the center button by the way. Do you know what Microsoft names it? What? It's called the Nexus button. No, it's not. Yes, it is. Long before the... Because the Xbox went around. Nexus button. All right. That's what all the dudes call it. Now I'm with you. Listen to what I'm saying. I think the Xbox One one day will be the one to get. Without question. Right at this moment, couldn't tell you. Right? Pretty sure... Microsoft seems to be better at software. Yeah, no. And Sony is way better at hardware. It's the... Sony's hardware is unquestionably more beautiful and better designed. Right. And what matters in a seven, eight, nine year cycle is the software. Yeah, without question. I mean, you could argue there's more headroom on the PS4, but that's like... That is some deep NeoGAF shit that I don't even want to begin to think about. Right? What matters is that the software company is going to build... Deep NeoGAF. Deep NeoGAF. Not even touching it, man. But what matters is they're good at software, they have a platform, they have the ability to get developers. And I... Let me bold pronouncement by Neelay Patel. Please do. I think the platform potential of the Xbox One, assuming Microsoft can actually harness it, which is an enormous assumption, is equivalent to the platform potential of the iPhone. What? Right. Wow. Because it's never been done before. What? What other company can do it? What hasn't been done before? No, there's no open app development for the Xbox 360. Yeah, that's true. It's never... This thing that they're doing has never been done on television before. That claim... The only other company that can do it is Apple. That claim is... That's what I want to believe, but the fact that they haven't given us a coherent story yet has me afraid that they're just going to bungle it, they're not going to launch that kind of ecosystem. Right. And it's funny because they're not doing it on the other products that actually do... You know what I mean? Instagram doesn't take a photo. Oh my God. It's like... They got to... They got to... The potential is there. This is like the classic Microsoft... If you look at the restraints that are on developers in Windows Phone and Windows 8, you know, those are holding back the quality of the apps or have so far. Right. Well, no, I mean, we should just get right into this. Are there any other Xbox things to say? Probably not. No. You see what I did there with that? Transition. Good. Did you just make your own transition sound effect? Transition. Transition. I can't restate that. It's goodbye. What? It worked out. Instagram on the Windows Phone. Do we have one here? Yeah, we got one right here. Oh. Oh, we have this monster. Is this a... My God. So that is... First of all, that is the Lumia 1520. Yeah. And I have to say... Here's all you need to know. It is comically large. You know how the unlock and lock button on phones are sometimes on the top or on the top side? This is where it's on this phone. And that explains perfectly how large this is. Like, okay, here's... Wow! This is it. This is what I wanted. Here's a Nexus 5, which is not a small phone. Just reaction shots of Paul playing with things. It's like the same. Like if you were a mathematician and you measured from here to here and then here to here, that would be the same as measuring from here to here to here. Paul, I have just one very simple question. No, I'm not a mathematician. Why would you need to be a mathematician to do that? Look, I'm working on it. I've been studying some calculus and precalculus on Khan Academy. And I promise you... But no, I'm asking why would it require a mathematician to measure the perimeter of I-10 geometry? I'm currently doing geometry. Like, okay, that's cool. All right, I'll measure them. Oh my God. I got that far. And then one of those. This is riveting television. One of those. Paul estimating measurements. Paul, you just moved your fingers, man. Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on. I'm not a mathematician. I'm not a mathematician. I'm talking about... I'm copying on it, all right? So here's the thing about the 1520. Let's start with the 1520 and then we'll talk about it. This happened on the mobile show. The world's largest object. The 1520, the review of it, Dan wrote it's very good. It was the first time we used the word phablet without apologizing for it immediately on the version. Yeah, because it's very clearly what it is. Yeah. It's so big. Here's what I don't understand. It's so really big. Can I just... here's a plea to all manufacturers of all devices. Don't make glossy plastic backs. Yeah. Right? Like particularly when they're like curved like this, there's something like that kind of glossy. There's a glossy that maybe works. It's a little duller. That glossy makes it look really cheap. That's... and Nokia makes... It does feel really solid, but it's a little slimy. It's super slimy. It's like just don't... I've seen Nokia make beautiful plastic phones. Check out this awesome picture I took of Dieter. Wow. That is just... And I posted the dance Instagram. Can I just say the size of the interface is so comically huge on that phone. They've accomplished nothing. They made a huge screen and the interface just scales up. It's like if you wanted to like have a demo of... like if you walk into a Best Buy and there's like a kiosk and it's like an extra large version of something just so that you can understand. It's like a fake phone. Yeah. It's like this is what phones are like if you get really close. We're just trying to... Wow. I mean, whatever. It's a Windows phone. It's 1080p. Tell me all about it. It has Instagram. No, the big thing is it's got the new version of Windows phone that is supposed to deal with the fact that the screen is gigantic and it can also be 1080p. And they didn't quite go far enough. You can add more rows of tiles and some of the core apps have got like... have been tweaked to fit more crap on the screen. Dude, open that keyboard. But way too often you're just looking at stuff that's just huge. There are more tiles on here. Oh yeah. The keyboard is gigantic. When you open up the keyboard, it goes up half the screen. Come on, man. I think it's taller. Test Dignity. The keyboard on this phone I think is taller than the keyboard on the Nexus 7 tablet. I think it's bigger than an iPhone. It's taller than it's like an iPhone in landscape. You're going to measure it? Like I said... That is ridiculous. Not a mathematician. That is just openly ridiculous. Open... so the words... that's why that big black bar is up there all the time. Because you know what you need when you're using a gigantic six inch phone? Openly... It's for the keyboard to take up so much screen real estate, you're left with like two inches of actual content at the top. Openly ridiculous. Good. Yeah. All right. Anything else to say about the 1520? I mean, it's a Windows phone. It's a Windows phone. And like the other thing I'll say, like the phablet thing... I'm sorry Dan for using your phone, your Instagram. It's no longer okay to just complain about big phones for being big, I think. Right. Because they're here. And there's a Sony one we did. Yeah. Did we do it already? I don't know. Well, there's a gigantic Sony one. Yeah. In the Z Ultra. In the Z Ultra, which is also ridiculous. It's like it's bigger than a pint glass. I took a picture of it the other day, an extra pint glass. And it's just like why? And that one, so Paul... Fits. Fits in my pocket. Paul, is that a 1520 in your pocket? The answer to why is because. Because like because people like big screens and it's nicer to have a big screen. Yeah. I mean, I get, but it's, I don't want a screen that big. Well, that's why you have an iPhone. That's true. But I also have like other, like my HTC One has a big screen. The Nexus 5, again, I'm qualified. Only the black Nexus 5 is cool. The other one, I don't even want to talk about it. Yeah. Wait, what just happened? Like I like those screens. Something happened to the colors and they went all like... Every time I'm in a car in New York and I pay the driver... All the colors were like, it went down to like 256 total colors on the screen. Just now? And then like it came back. It looked like everything was made in MS Paint. So we should talk about Instagram. Clear black technology. Is that now you're living in the X reality. Yeah, I guess so. I just like using... So on Instagram, you take a picture and it sends you to your actual camera roll. Yeah, so Instagram is a... There was a cluster of misinformation. Dieter, you want to walk us through it? So okay, coming, hooray, gets released and they tell us it won't do video and it won't take pictures directly inside the app. It's like, well, that's insane. It'll only take you to the camera roll. But then it turns out that you can go into the camera roll and then within the camera roll, you can hit the camera button to launch the native camera interface to take the picture. And then it kicks you back into Instagram to edit the picture and put your filters on. That all happens pretty fast. The only caveat, the only problem there is you don't see that square crop while you're taking the picture. Right. You don't have Instagram's camera interface. You've got the native camera interface. So here's my guess, because there is a lot of confusing information out there. There's a lot of confusing information for people who should not have been confused. And the bad information came from Instagram, as far as I can tell. So my guess is what we all assumed happened, happened. Microsoft built this app and they're like, here you go, and Instagram doesn't know anything about it. And they barely even used it. And they don't even realize it. But so if Microsoft built the app, why is it doesn't use the lens feature, I don't think. They, you know, like Microsoft built this cool feature where you can have multiple lenses or what maybe is Nokia where, you know, I'm going to use this camera app for this thing. And I don't think, I mean, it's still early, so I'm sure it'll come. Right. Well, that's like a Nokia. Yeah. But their claim is that like they've done so much work on their camera app. They don't want you to use Instagram's crappy interface. They want you to use the magical, you know, Windows phone interface to take your picture, which is fine. It's just like, it's an extra button. Yeah. I mean, it's just one of those things, you know, and Tom ran this report because they have Vine now too. Yeah. And it's like, have they turned the corner in the... No, they said they think they've turned the corner. Microsoft literally said, we've turned the corner on apps. We're good now. Well, it's because you can't complain about not having Instagram anymore. Well, which was the poster child of like when people complain about Windows phone doesn't have apps, like what apps don't they have? Instagram. That was always the one. And I personally was like, and that there's no comically large phone that could also serve as a fire truck in a small emergency. But now honestly I can't, what else is there? I'm switching to Windows phone, everybody. But so Instagram is a perfect example. So it still doesn't do video. So yes, you've turned the corner. You've got Instagram now. Good job. You needed to do that. But the quality of the apps on Windows phone still isn't up to what iOS is and they're not getting as many frequent updates and features aren't necessarily coming first to Windows phone. So Instagram, sorry, is still the perfect example of what Microsoft needs to do to like get its platform up to parity. You're getting there in numbers, you're getting there on first party titles, but now you need those first party titles to feel as awesome or better than they are on other platforms. I also need the animations to be faster. And when this found an iOS network in the race for the most appallingly slow animation to do, it's like, I'm going to go to my home screen. Here it is. I'm going to open. What if there's somebody in Cupertino that's like holding down the shift key. That's what I said. When I was seven first came out, I thought all those demos were shift key demos. It's like cats been sitting on the shift key this whole time. All of a sudden he notices, gets his cat off the shift key and also everything so fast. But literally the iOS seven animation did not bug me until you guys started complaining about it on the podcast. I've been using iOS seven forever and I did not bug me. You know, just as your friend, you've been living in a more relaxed pace. I don't matter. I'm just saying you've been, you've been, uh, I'm pretty relaxed here. Yeah. Right. But I have, I've been learning a lot about programming and the way you make windows, uh, phone apps and windows eight apps and Xbox apps is very similar to the process that you go through if you want to make an HTML five app that is then magically by some framework ported to all the phones. Yes. That's their whole game. That was Palm's game. Once upon a time, remember? I'm Palm. Oh, yeah. Talk to me about Palm. Remember they're cuddly. Then they got bought and sold 15 times and so they were murdered by a man named Leo. Look at this guy trolling me right now. You get kind of, you get kind of a somewhat, uh, not necessarily hamstrung, but maybe awkward API to the native features of the phone. Well, there's multiple channels, so you can do that kind of app that is the XML stuff, or you can do like the game that's like hard coded to the Silicon. You can, you can do it both ways. It's just like the default way is that. Right. But if you're going to create something like Instagram and you plug in access to the camera, it is very similar to when you're making a website that accesses your computer camera. Yeah. And as long as it's fast, that's actually, you can develop stuff faster. If that really, really, really, really worked, that would be great. But I still don't think we're there. No. And like if you, if you see like, you know, just the whole thing of Facebook going from an HTML five thing to a native app, there are just still some really strong advantages to native apps. Yeah. And I don't think windows. Well, I will say windows phone has done a better job at that sort of development process than anybody else. Sure. I agree with that. But yeah. Can we talk about the other big windows story of the day, which is like my favorite story of all time? Yes. Microsoft is now selling screwed gold branded merchandise. What? Are you aware of this? No. It's amazing. So they opened a store, Microsoft, it's a company. It's like on their website. It's like store.microsoft.com. Yeah. Uh, slash screwed gold. Yeah. Bring it up on the big screen. Uh, I don't know. Oh, screwed gold. Oh yeah. Uh, and then you can like get t-shirts that say, keep calm. And while we steal your data with a Chrome logo on them, Microsoft in a beef with, with Google is like, is like your dad in a rap battle. Well, so I've heard, um, I've heard a couple of theories about this. One. So one, I think this is like, they're using the Chrome logo all over the place, which, uh, I think it's very obviously like parody, right? Like this, no one's going to confuse these for Google products, right? Right. No one's going to confuse this for like a Chrome thing. But the theory that's been floating around on Twitter is that Microsoft is waiting for Google to bait them with like a cease and desist letter so they can be like, Google's an evil company. It's really intensely bad. Yeah. It's really bad. Like it's, it's super hilarious. And like immature. And Google's response is really good is a competition in the wearable space is heating up. Like this is stuff that you sell on like ThinkGeek. Yeah. Yeah. Microsoft's latest venture comes as no surprise. Competition in the wearable space is really heating up. That's amazing. But I just think there's like an element. The jokes are bad and the products are like whatever. Like it's, I think it's funny. The problem that I have with this Google thing is, you know, people that still spell Microsoft with a dollar sign instead of an S. Oh, I know those people. I know where they are. Yeah. I can find them in a moment's notice. This feels like the exact mirror image of that. It's like, it's not funny. It's not whatever. Like, yeah, you've got a point, but come on. Yeah. Also, by the way, outlook serves ads when you use it like outlook.com. Yeah, I think it's ads on it, but they're just saying it's just a thing that they have. It's just a free mail service served by ads. It's, it's, this is absurd. This is absurd. I just think it's really funny. I like that Microsoft has some attitude. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like I'm into it. You know, a little attitude. They're like, they're out there, they're fighting. They got attitude. I just wish they had taste. Check out our giant phone. It won't screw with you. Huh? It's fine. That's cool. We got Instagram. Camera things. You only do this when you're behind and scared. Like you never do this from a position of power. Yeah. You don't make fun of this is how you attack people with power. And this is like you said, this is how people have attacked Microsoft forever. I'm sure that there's a bunch of old Microsoft. This is Steve Ballmer on his way out being like, you know what? Actually they did it to me. The the school shirt with the trench coat and the, the, the hat with the, it says I'm watching you. Yeah. That's actually kind of cool. Oh good. Oh, they're clever. There's a, there's an element of cleverness to this. But it's like, this should be, there is no element of cleverness. I'm watching you. Yeah. It's like a, it's like a joke. We got a hilarious, if you scroll down, you got a bigger image of it. Oh my gosh. Come on. Look, that's awesome. It's like Chrome. He's there. It's a who it's a guy from Watchmen. Oh, uh, uh, damn it. You made me forget. It's my secret power. It's worse. We're a sec. You didn't get come up that with yourself. Now I got some, I just watched that movie. John, could you just follow me around all the time and talk in my ear when I'm about to say something stupid? Yes. Well, great. John, not now he's not paying attention. You can't don't talk to those people. They're not here for you. Talk to the people in the audience. All right. We should, we should round up Microsoft with the tablet. Do you want to? Yeah. There's one more Microsoft story and we should talk about Apple and Samsung. Uh, there's a surface two over there too. Yeah. Well it's crazy cause Microsoft, this is when Microsoft bought Nokia's devices business as like this is what's going to happen. Microsoft is probably going to build a phone and Nokia's going to build a tablet and then that Microsoft hasn't built a phone yet cause they obviously just bought a phone business, but Nokia doesn't care. They're just out there. They just built a surface, but you've got a surface on top of MacBook air here. Yeah. It's dirty, right? So Paul, you've got Paul, you know, this is what I want. I just want reaction shots of Paul, the gadgets. Where are you at? It's a gallery. No dude, I was using the, the, the. We got the pencil. It's not going to work on that screen. Yeah, it does. It's a, it's a, it's a capacity of style. It's still capacity. Oh, it's Bluetooth. It's for the eraser. And so we have the pencil rejection also. I think the palm rejection. So then this, this keyboard looks terrible. Yeah. Keyword. But this tap. Oh sure. Yeah. So it comes, you can get a case that's got like a little keyboard on it and then it like folds up pretty excited. Pretty sad thing. Um, but they got to stop with this glossy fire engine red man. I don't know dude. It feels pretty good. It's the same as you just said. The phone felt slimy. Yeah, but I don't know. What are you doing? There's definitely a little bit of flex there. Oh yeah. No, this is, this is pretty, pretty light. I was, I was expecting this tablet to be a mess and it's not. I will say like I just got, I got a Chromebook and I kind of wish I'd gotten one of these. Really? Yeah, as much as hate hatred as I just poured onto their app ecosystem and SDK, I kind of think I would prefer, Oh, I see, I see what you're saying. Yeah. As little, it's got a little residence. Yeah. No, there's a, there's a, it feels like you can like squeeze the air out of it before you like put it in the room for like, you can like add some Ram to it. I don't know man. Here, here's the biggest problem. Don't see this, see that. Don't do that. No wrong camera. This this one, see this, see these big Verizon logos that are silk screen on here and I can like rub my finger. Everything about this is fingerprints. I just like everything about this right now is covered in gross, ultra gross fingerprints. But like this is, I mean how much does this cost? It's like 300 something. You're just trying, you're just trying to get John to tell you in your ear again, you don't actually want to know. John, John, John, how much is the $6 billion? It's called $6 billion I think. Do you remember when Nokia made a netbook, remember that thing? No I do not. Nokia made a netbook. Oh yeah. That's what that reminds me of. That ran Windows. Yes. $400. Oh the Nokia. Wait the 4G one? The booklet. I remember it was one of Joanna Stern's like. I remember this now. And it was, it was a piece. This is like, this product is not for this. I have this theory about temporary products, right? There's an endless amount of crap on the market right now that feels super temporary. I think the Nexus 5 feels super temporary to me. I almost can't see through the fingerprints. Six months from now, that thing is just going to be gone. Completely disagree. The Nexus 5. Yeah, the black one. The white one feels completely temporary. The black one feels. I had a white one, I'm sorry. God, it's the worst. It's like every day of my life I'm like, God I'm using my phone now. I'm like, I hate myself. No, the black one, it's anonymous and kind of boring. Yeah, it's cool. The black one's cool. But like it also like just goes away and in a way like your gadgetry should be. Let's trade. You want my white one? No. Ah, this is covered in fingerprints too. Yeah, I know. Everything fingerprints all the time. Actually, can I complain about this? I just got the wireless charger, which is great. And there's magnets because you know, they steal everything from Palm. And it has this mode called, dude. Oh, sadness. It's got this mode called Daydream where when it's on it on the charger, it's. That's a Palm thing too, right? Yeah, it was exhibition. Yeah. So there are better web OS exhibition apps that like show you stuff you want while it's charging than there are available on Android. Yeah. Is web OS like the Xerox park of our time? It truly is without question. Only Matthias actually went to Google and isn't doing all the stuff yet. Well, he's doing it just now on Android. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it'd be like exhibition. I finally found the part. So here's my theory. So the Nexus 5 in particular feels temporary. Like six months from now, no one will ever remember it. It'll go away. Like it will have made no impact on the universe. That tablet, the 2520, temporary, right? In another four months, no, he'd be part of Microsoft. That thing will just fade into oblivion and we'll all. It's the Motorola zoom. Another great example of a product that instantly felt temporary. Nexus 10 instantly felt temporary. Nexus 10 definitely felt temporary. Like here's this thing. Like we farted it out and like it's going to go away soon. There are products that don't feel temporary. The Surface 2 right there doesn't feel temporary. Like it has like a weight and a personality. The Nexus 4, even though it didn't have LTE and thus was a tragedy, had like a personality. It didn't feel like immediately temporary. I think we're like in this moment of like ultra temporary products where you can like all these commodity. If you buy it, it's not temporary. Yeah. But why would you buy that? Like, I don't think you should buy, you shouldn't buy a product that the world will instantly forget. I'm going to take my Chromebook back. Unless you're Chris Ziegler and you just need to, you need to have it in your possession. But who cares? That's temporary too. Cause he buys it and then sells it a week later. How is the world going to forget it? I mean this has... Because you're buying, you're not just buying, that thing isn't done, right? Like it needs to get software support and updates and like you need to buy accessories for it. One day the battery will die. Somebody has to fix it. Like there's all kinds of stuff and like all these products to me feel incredibly temporary right now. Even the 1520, the phablet, like that's draft one of an idea that may not be very good. Right? And like cool, it's red. And like, I just, I don't know. These two products, the Nexus 5, particularly my white one, which I just, just really dislike. The fact that this is so cheap. I think that the Nexus 5 will do as well as the Nexus 4, which is surprisingly well. Look, I drew a picture of you, Neelai. Well that's cheap. I think you should buy it. Thanks. It's Neelai. Thanks, by the way. No, look, I'm going to go and dye it. Except the camera, which is terrible. That doesn't... Come on, man. There's more light in my eyes. I wonder if that feeling of temporary... Well, how do you like that size? It'll slim you down a bit. What were you saying to her? I was saying, I wonder if that feeling of temporariness is everybody watches Samsung just throw crap at the wall and then out of nowhere it's like, wow, this is hugely successful and we weren't expecting it to be hugely successful. So if Samsung can like throw crap at the wall, there's a surprise. But Samsung's the king of temporary products. Yeah, but sometimes... The Galaxy Round is a temporary product. But if Samsung can like make a bunch of temporary products and then all of a sudden the Note happens and like, whoa, this worked. Everyone's like, well, let's see if we can do that. Let's make a bunch of crap. And if something shocks us and becomes really popular, then hooray for us. We look like innovators. Yeah, but there's nothing about that tablet that's going to do what the Note did, right? No. The Note was the first to its space. It is for all of its faults and like, it is at least a reasonably sized thing of that size. You're just terrified that the Galaxy Gear is going to be successful. This is targeting... The Galaxy Gear is like an ultra temporary product. This is targeting the vanilla, like Microsoft's concept in their brain of what a Windows tablet is. This is targeting that and it's always going to have that software. Like the Note, like, you know, it doesn't get the new Note software. No, what makes this temporary is that Microsoft is buying Nokia and why would they continue? Yeah, so what is the point? But if you just... I mean, as a consumer, because I kind of want to buy one of these. If I bought this... Well, why wouldn't you buy Surface 2? Because it's big and ugly. I mean, it's not ugly. It actually looks really great, but it's really fat. No, but why wouldn't you buy... I mean, like, I don't get it. And it's like a million dollars. Can I see the iPad? I want to do some real drawing. Here we go. Yeah. Oh, we have paper. No, it's just... It's like, it's like the... You want to buy the canonical device, right? What's with all the red today? Is this like just like a handy visual reminder to us that these are the gadgets that we're demonstrating? Yeah. Surface 2 is just sitting there. Yeah. Well, all our gray laptops on the Surface 2, they fade into the background. Yeah. This is good. This is good. I think there's something in like screenwriting workshops about like the woman in the red dress. That would be the Matrix. Yeah. That's just the Matrix. Okay. All right. Blonde, brunette. We're going to watch Paul draw now. Paul, okay. So Paul is using the pencil by 53, which is a Bluetooth stylus for the iPad that syncs with paper, the app, which is tremendously popular. And the palm rejection doesn't quite work. And when I say tremendously popular, yeah, I don't think the palm rejection works. Is it synced? Did you sync it? No, I think it might only work... You sync it by tapping it on this little guy and then there's a little... Just hold it down there. Hold it. Kiss to sync is what it's called. No, kill me. Don't say kiss to sync. Yeah. So there you go. Now it's synced. Now the palm rejection should work. It didn't work earlier. Well, it's because you didn't have it synced. Yeah, that's awesome. And then you can... That works. There's an eraser on the back. You can take it apart and charge it over a USB. Stop drawing me. How do you know that's you? Because I know that fat face anyway. This is riveting television, by the way. Paul just drawing. So then you can use your finger to smudge it? Yeah. That's paper. Paper is doing so phenomenally well, by the way, as an app. And then you can erase. And so the big key here is that they hired a bunch of hardware guys from Microsoft who were working on the Courier to build the pencil. Yeah. This is great. It's a pretty good stylus. Yeah. I mean, if you want a stylus on your tablet. It feels like a crayon. I do. I do. Okay. I take it back. I'm not getting one of these. Why aren't you getting one of these? Because I'm just going to double down on my iPad. Oh, you're not going to get a 2520? No. When were you ever? I don't know. I mean... So the whole idea behind the Chromebook was to get a laptop that I literally couldn't do anything but write on. Yeah. But not having real native apps, it was just too scary to be writing something important in a web browser or in one of their weird fake apps and it dies. You literally, if you look through the app store for the Chrome store for almost any productivity app, it's like, this is kind of cool. And then something happened and it refreshed and then everything's gone. That's pretty much the story for... So I was like, well, Windows 8. And I looked through the app stores, got some pretty cool Markdown apps and stuff. But then I just went back to my iPad and it's awesome. It is so great. My iPad 2 is amazing. iPad 2. No, 3. 3. The first one with the Retina. I have an upgrade. I swore up in the ad I was going to buy an Air and I even sold my iPad 3 on Gazelle and then I just haven't done anything yet. I'm just sitting there. It's like, oh, I don't use this very much. I mean, I use it a lot, but I don't use it very much. If that makes any sense. I use the Mini with the Retina display for the first time since the event, since the hands-on. You upgrading? I really don't want to. I really don't want to spend the money. But I'm probably going to. Yeah, it happens. It's that time of year. Yeah. Well, I thought my hand was going to be forced because I lost my old iPad Mini. I left it in a Zipcar in San Francisco. This is a story of human triumph and karmic balance. Justin in San Francisco. Thank you. He found it. I went there to get Zipcar to tell him who I was and they wouldn't. And then I sent the I lost my iPad message to it and he called me. What a guy. He's given it back. He won't even let me give him a reward. I don't even know who he is. A story of true human accomplishment. That's right. That saved me $650 because I'm not buying a new iPad now. Nice. So we should do, there's some, by the way, Skirgold, I just want to point this out. Google cool response. I totally forgot this story. Vint Cerf, who is Google's chief internet evangelist today said privacy may actually be an anomaly. The privacy is an artificial state created by technology that didn't used to exist. Yeah. Cause we all used to live in tiny little villages and we knew everybody knew what everybody was doing. Yeah. And then technology created private. So we're now reverting to our state of nature, which is Google and the NSA watching over us at all times. Skirgold guys. Yeah. Google is replacing don't be evil with nasty, brutish and short. It's a real Hobbesian state of the internet right now. Okay. So bizarrely we have like a whole litany of Samsung news, which is I think strange. Cause it's usually like, look at this crazy phone. So actually breaking news right before we came on the show, Apple and Samsung back in the courtroom today. Together again at last. This is the same old trial, right? It was the same old trial. So this is the patent infringement trial. This I think there's an interesting piece of this. So the number came out today. So the jury in the first trial gave, uh, since Apple wins, Samsung owes him a billion dollars. The judge says you got the number wrong. Go back and like figure out, uh, I think it was like $350 million of that number. You got about that much wrong of it. Samsung said, well, that number should be $57 million. Apple said we should be the whole thing. The jury came back today and said 290 million. So Apple won like clean walked away the winter. Right? But what's interesting is that during the closing arguments of the trial, I was going to go for the lunch thing, but that's, oh yeah. The jury also sent a note asking to order Chinese food for lunch and asking for a picture of themselves two hours before the verdict was rendered two hours before they wanted to, they asked for a picture of themselves. Wow. Um, I didn't know you could do that. They're like, can we please get the courtroom sketch of the jury? Yeah, I love it. I think they're all like friends. Like they're back there. They're eating a bunch of Chinese food. They're like cool. I'm like, what do you think? Two 97, two 90. He's doing it. Delicious. Sweet and spicy. Um, but okay. So here's the really interesting part during the closing arguments of this trial, uh, Apple made what is largely a, uh, like a, uh, I don't know, protectionist claim. It said IP is the basis of the, of the technology economy in America. We have to protect our patents. You have to send a signal to Samsung that you can't do this and get away with it. Look at what happened to the TV industry. We didn't protect our IP in the TV industry and now there are no more American companies making televisions. And obviously the, the big giant in the TV industry is Samsung, Korean company. So Samsung argued that this is a mistrial and that Apple was appealing to racism in their closing arguments, which is like insane. Uh, judge Coe has been like, well, they were appealing to. Like jingoism, I guess. I mean, they were saying you have to send a message and I gave a list of reasons why you would send this message. And one of those reasons is, well, we didn't do it in this other industry and look what happened there. So like, that's fine. You could definitely make the jingoistic argument. I don't know how you make the racism argument. Like they, like, I just don't know how you, this is the first time that Samsung has made this claim about an Apple thing. Yeah, they do it all. This is like the move, but judge Coe is like, it's not a mistrial, but so Samsung is going to like pursue this. Like the next piece of this trial puzzle, the next big move is Samsung is going to say, and this is like, and they're going to, well, I mean, it's part of his closing argument, but this is like the story about the TV industry is out there. Like this is a story about patents in America. Like they didn't patent a bunch of TV stuff and then other people copied it and they didn't sue. Like it's out, it's, it's there. Oh boy, do I not care. But this is the next move is Samsung is going to appeal the verdict in this case. And part of the appeal is going to be there was a mistrial because of racism. So that that's one piece of Samsung news, which I thought was pretty ridiculous. The next to go from that to the galaxy gear, I think very odd, but I'm gonna do it anyway. There's a big contrary, you know this, there's a big controversy. Samsung, there was a Korean news source that said they're only selling a hundred a day of the galaxy gear, which makes sense to me because things sucks. But then a number came out and Samsung says they've shipped or sold very unclear, very foggy. So they did, they did this to the traditional Samsung move where they said ships, but it got told, okay. And like Samsung loves when that happened. Yeah. It's their favorite, but 800,000 ships, who knows how many of those are actually going to get. First things I learned when I was a fledgling gadget reporter, that ship is different than sold. If you go to an AT&T store, stay away from the gear display, if you like glance at the, they've got it hooked up to a galaxy note three. Oh God. And if you glance at the gear or touch it, cause you want to see what it does, it doesn't actually work. What it does is it starts on the note three talking to you. That's like runs a video. And I'm like, I just want to leave me alone. And then I had to run away. It was terrible. Don't do it. My best buy, if you turn left, it's the cash register. If you go forward, it's blue rays on discount. If you turn right, it's their mobile kiosk. And then it's galaxy gear, Samsung stuff. Then the app that once upon a time, nicest part of Best Buy, that was that little Apple kiosk and is now it's Samsung land. Do you have a little kid dressed as old, just flitting around, but it is funny to think that there might be more galaxy gears in stock at my Best Buy than are sold in a day. Yes. I think that's absolutely 100% correct. I think you could double Samsung sales. If you just went to one Best Buy and bought them all. We'll see. We'll see. I think it's still be relatively successful. I've seen a couple on the subway since I moved here. It's really, it's really tough. The way they so closely tied it to the note. Yeah. I think if it wasn't for that, anybody who had like a galaxy two or above could get one of these things and go off to the races. Yeah. The super nerdy races. No, I think people would be into it. I really do. I see, I see. Look, I see S4s and S3s everywhere. It's one of those things that like, if you haven't been following the whole Kickstarter smartwatch scene, this is the first time it just like, like when I showed people I could do things on my iPhone, you know, it's, and it's like, yeah, technically you could have done that on windows mobile before, but, but like this is the first time a lot of people are seeing this level of technology on their wrist. Yeah, but it's not a good enough level of technology. Yeah. If you actually release the update that lets you see full notification, if you actually are going to be care about like reviews and empiricism now, but so you care about reviews and empiricism. I'm telling you, but I'm saying this is just by exposing people to this level of technology that can be on their wrist. Yeah, I think that's really exciting for people. Your panic look at me when you were saying technically you could do it on windows mobile because you knew that I was going to make it, showing off a smartwatch right now feels exactly like showing off windows mobile before the iPhone. People are like, wow, yeah, that's really cool that you can do that nerd. Yeah. Right. Like we need, I mean, we're waiting for the iWatch. I mean, I guess there's that thing like, yeah, I just, this is Samsung. Like they're Samsung. It's a, it's Samsung. They, they made it. They're like, it's another temporary product a year from now. No one will remember this. We'll be onto the gear too. And this thing will be forgotten. It'll never get a software update and it'll be over the windows mobile compared to a Newton. We were at Newton stage with, with, with smartwatches pebble. Although I guess, I guess the pebble is actually better without question. And you know what I think is crazy people are going to buy this. I can't justify apparently with a bad analogy. I think people are buying galaxy gears. No, they're clearly not. I think some people are buying. Well yeah. Like a hundred a day in the entire world. I think that's a loan. I think that I think we'll be surprised at how many were sold. I'm not saying that you're wrong, that this thing is a smashing success, but I think that more of them will have been sold than I would have expected. Yeah. Instead of buying the girlfriend that you don't like very much, an iPod nano, you're going to get her a galaxy gear. Like that, that's the kind of, not like your girlfriend. Yeah. That was it. Like there was like a couple of years there where I was like, I was going to break up, but you know, I'll just get her a gear instead. Well, we got to get through this. Here you go. Here's an iPod nano. I have, here's a reflection of the depth of my feelings. I didn't put any music on it. You say death or depth? It's the same coin. Yeah. It's whatever. I hope you have a galaxy note. It's like, um, you know, fine, fine. Can we just bring up the WinApp thread? Yes. Can we just look at it? Let's all just look at it. Guys. What are we looking at? What are we looking at? WinApp is dead. AOL, AOL, a former employer. Not mine. That's true. I was looking at Paul. Paul, former employer. We shared some, some times, some times in America online. That's killed WinApp, killed it dead. The rumor however, is that Microsoft is going to buy it, which is amazing. That guy left AOL like forever ago. Yeah, no. So he hated. What does Microsoft need out of WinApp? I don't know, TechCrunch had a rumor to Microsoft. Can we put up the skins, John? Can we put up the WinApp thread? By the way, this guy went on to like create a really awesome, um, like music, um, software thing for creating music, like logic. What are those called? Here's a word for it. D-A-W. Yeah. Yeah. He created a really great, it's like really lightweight. Like most of those softwares are like a gigabyte something to download and it's like, and it's like 10 megabytes or something like that. And it works with all plugins and stuff. So like he went on to do some cool stuff. So AOL didn't kill him. Yeah. Okay. So can I just point out WinApp? Just the state of software. So this was when I was in college. Right? So this is like the early two thousands, right? Somewhere in there. Uh, the fact that we use software, so that's, that's stock WinApp, right? That, that one in the middle. And then you could skin it. I mean, this, this was the beginnings of a revolution. And the idea that the revolution looks like this is just so disturbing to me. Like this anime skin. And think about this, this is right when we're, I mean, maybe just a little bit before we're skinning our, our my spaces like crazy. Like we had so much more power over our technology back then we could skin. And we used it so irresponsibly. Dude, you want to know why Apple decided to lock everything down and like, like only Steve Jobs dictatorial vision would, would, would drive the world. My favorite is the Dave Matthews one. It's yeah, that's, that's the best one. We'll look back on this past decade. This decade. It's like, why would you want that software on your computer? Why would you think to yourself, every time I want to listen to a song, I want this gigantic like bitmap of Dave Matthews to like, look at me. We did Winamp skins. We did my space. Oh my God. The Van Helsing one. And we've been in timeout. Yeah. The technology industry put us in timeout. Yeah. And now Steve Jobs put us in timeout. Facebook put us in timeout. By the way. So we looked at, uh, yeah, Facebook, but then jobs. So we looked at the original, um, that actually, that, that triangular one is not, not so bad, but we looked at the original iTunes keynote. Can I just point this out? Okay. So he did that presentation in comic sands. Oh, the original, uh, quick time stuff on windows was terrible too. Like it didn't match metal. This was the age of skinning. Apple just had one skin, but jobs definitely responded to this by announcing by buying sound jam, remember? And then released iTunes and he had the, we're releasing iTunes, like keynote. It's a big deal. Right. And you're like, put up, he put up all these skins and it was like, this is ugly and confusing and hard to use. We've got to think. Like the whole presentation, all the slides were in comic sands and it's like, you, you got to try to tell that was a subtle troll. He was trying to tell if I'm going to have to like release windows software. No, it wasn't. I'm doing it with the math. Oh, was it? Yeah. Shoot. That was a really good joke until you gave me the truth. No, it was incredible. What is happening in my ears? Yeah. I was wondering when the llama, the llama, I forgot about the llama. What? How did you forget about the llama? I didn't use Winamp man. This software, this software. Do you see it? I had, I had dignity. I had a Rio, I had a creative Rio and I used wherever, I mean, I, I realized what I just said. I had dignity. I used the hell out of Winamp. It was great. But can you, this is a software that I literally like, I couldn't install this on my mom's computer because it talks about whipping a llama's ass. Winamp. Winamp. It really whips the llama's ass. What a time. It was the, it was the wild West. It was, we need to get back to this. Technology is free. Exploration. All right. I'm going to slow down. May 30th, 2007. I'm going to edit the CSS of Facebook and, um, and make a skin. John, I'm going to put this, I'm going to put this keynote video at the top of our, uh, of our doc. There you go. Just watch. It's there. It's We're working on bringing up the video. Hey guys, let's do some dead air. Dead air. Dead air. Dead air. Go best. All right. We probably have one more thing to talk about before we watch this comic sand situation. What is it? Uh, well, the Moto X is sitting over there. Oh yeah. So, uh, yeah, this is insane. This is a victory for freedom. Yeah. So, uh, Moto X, uh, has, was updated to 4.4 KitKat on Verizon first. Yeah. And then it came out on T-Mobile. It's come out on the dev units today. Yeah. It's like, what? That makes no sense to me. Came out on Verizon first. So, you know, it's, it, first of all, it doesn't have the Nexus 5 launcher. I told you so. Yeah. No, that's it's Google scan on Android. That's right. Theory. But otherwise, you know, it's KitKat. It does all the stuff. It does this thing where you can say, okay, Google now. Oh, it's not, it's not trained to my voice, but you can like ask where it is and it'll start beeping. By the way, by the way, I just realized I have the podcasts up, the podcast topics up for 2011 September. Okay. So you've been really confused this whole time. Sprint sues to block AT&T T-Mobile. It really doesn't feel all that different from 4.3, but what's crazy is that it came out on a Verizon phone first. It's out before 4.4 is available on the Nexus 4. Yeah. Also the Google experience devices. Right. Thank you very much, Google. I spent $500 on that phone. No, $550 on HTC One. I thought your screen was glitched. It was supposed to get updates. No, wood pattern was weird. And the Verizon Moto X got it first. So I feel like a chump. Cool. Cool phone. Yeah. You know, these things are dirt cheap now. They're selling for like 50 bucks or a hundred bucks or a penny. I'm sure Black Friday you'll be able to get it for free on contract everywhere. Well, they're, they're, they're a penny on contract too. Yeah. So, uh, just, I don't know what, what I can say about how insane it is that Verizon got it first other than like, I, I, the fact that it's Verizon and not T-Mobile or AT&T is right. Cause like Verizon's look, Verizon Motorola very close. You know, they're probably in exchange. The next droid has to feature actual knives that shoot out of it and kill bystanders. Like, you know, it's just a thing. By the way, the original iTunes was super ugly. Just I mean the fact that we went from Winamp and then this was an improvement. Do it, do it. Look at this. What is this? Comic Sans. No, that's, that's marker felt. That's marker felt. Oh, that's even better. Gosh, be live. A font that everybody else hates just slightly less than mark. Yeah, but Steve Jobs clearly loved. That was the big drama. But the notes ahead, yeah, the notes and they took it all out and out. So can we skip ahead to the actual iTunes interface and brush metal because the fact that we thought that was like a breath of fresh air indicates the depths to which software design like, come on. Well the first time we saw this UI was when quick time for came out. And remember when quick time for came out alongside the new star Wars trailer. So we all got a lot of brush. Can we just get the audio of this? I mean this is like classic Steve Jobs. All he's doing in this presentation. It doesn't look that bad. Is playing mp3. Very simple. Now you might want to import a bunch of songs and you could put all your, uh, your discs in, but I've already done that and I've got a bunch of songs in a folder here and all I have to do is drag that on top of iTunes and I've got about a thousand songs. So um, there's a thousand songs just imported. Oh, that's nice. And a matter of fact, I've got a thousand and four songs in here. It's crazy. We were at a state with Winamp in that software that this was a meaningful demo to give thousands of people. It is actually really interesting. They cleaned up Winamp a little bit. Sound jam. That's what it was. But like, but the, the visual language style, they like tried to come up with one. Yeah. But they're clearly indebted to this Winamp thing. And if you think about that iTunes aesthetic to blood over to a lot of like iTunes visual design because it's been their most popular product for, you know, it's everywhere. Had the really window and it's all Winamp's fault. Yeah. We live in our world as a reaction to Winamp and now it's dead. Now it's dead. And now Microsoft is going to buy it and it's going to get super weird. All right. That was skin every single live tile like Winamp. That'd be amazing. If we can get the Dave Matthews instead of a square, you could just be anything you wanted. Oh, that would be incredible. I mean, I mean it would also be a live in that world where vomit just pours out of my eyes every time I look at any computer ever. I've on it. The Neil I have to tell story. No, but it would be a lower case. I, Nope. Okay. That was the verge cast. Everyone. I'm really sorry that that happened. You were doing so good at the end. Take that left turn. I'm glad that we just mostly played with twice today. Yeah. No, no, no. How about that? And I say running health care. I got my right. Also that happened. I was trying to tell you that I did a kid. You got to tell me that. I don't know. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. You didn't. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I didn't care what you're saying. I didn't care enough to make words. I don't care to know. I don't know enough to care. All right. Well that was an experience for everyone. Can you do it this time? Can you wrap it up? As usual, we apologize to the audience for the loss of your time and there are many ways to get ahold of us. You can attack us on Twitter. I'm reckless. Bon bones on back lawn trolling you. Back lawn. Future Paul. Send me all your Winamp skins. Please. The more Winamp skins we can collect, the better. You can. We should get a Winamp skin for our live stream player. I'm pretty sure we can. What we'll think about. It'll just be you playing the guitar. Yeah. It'll be great. You can leave a comment on the post. You can send us an email. By the way, I was playing left-handed. It's podcast to the verge of the comic. I was in character as Paul McCartney. I thought your character was Paul Miller. Aren't you left-handed? I am, but I play right. It's vergecast to the verge. Can we just set up the other email? It's like, you know, it's going to be easier for us in the world. I'm never going to get right. Just set up the other email. There's probably a phone number you can call. No one will pick up. That was it. At this point, I believe I'm supposed to check my hair and threaten your family, so just assume those things happen. Rock and roll.