 Hey, Ed, welcome to the Vergecast for the week of... what is the week? I'm so confused. January... it's January 23rd. The week of January 23rd. I'm Josh Topolsky. I'm Paul Miller. Nili Patel. And we're back. It was different this time. I didn't say I am. I just said Nili Patel. I haven't looked you in the eye since I came into the studio. I've just been in my zone, just like hanging... just Paul Miller time. But now I can see... It's Paul Miller time. Yeah. That's a gif, animated gif waiting to happen. Yeah. And he would chug a beer every time he said it. We're back on... well, he can chug his margarita. You don't even have your margarita. We're back. It's the Vergecast, where we discuss the week in technology and culture. Technology, culture, consumer electronics. Consumer electronic culture. Yeah. Culture, consumer electronics, and technology. The culture of the consumer. The culture of the consumer. The cult of the consumer, really, when you think about it. And there's a lot to talk about this week. It's a huge week, actually. Very interesting week. And I just want to say you may have noticed that we're drinking margaritas. And that is, of course, in... to commemorate... Cheers, Paul. Yeah, let's... To Ruby. To commemorate John Rubenstein, who left HP and really officially left Palm and WebOS today. And, of course, you can read our exclusive interview. It was actually exclusive when we put it up, and then all things Dee put up. But I decided to not change the headline, because... Why? Ours is different. I should put... I should have a different... Exclusive, different interview. Some of the words are not the same. They aren't. Well, no. Ours is longer. But... And, you know, better. He did imply that he was about to drink a margarita. He was gonna... He was gonna work out, but then there was like an ellipse. He absolutely said he said, it's too early for margarita. But I... He's like, I just did my workout. I'm gonna go for a swim. And not too early for us. And lunch. And I think with lunch, he'll probably have margarita. And he's in Mexico right now. He was... I was... You know, I said, are you going to Mexico? And he's like, yes. You're talking to me in Mexico right now. I was like, I'm very envious. But, you know, read all about it. There's a link. Somebody will drop it into the conference room. To the chat room. A lot of trust in the merch guests. Yeah. Mmm. Mmm. I'm a little disappointed, because I got some... Somebody got some salt in my... There's a lot of salt. Yeah, it's very salty. And I don't like salt in my margaritas at all. I don't like them at all. I mean, I like margaritas, but not with salt. And you always got a whole salted rim. So, I guess... Salted rim. That's what's gonna happen if John Rubenstein goes over to research emotion. By the way, that is definitely a title of his autobiography. Salted rim. The John Rubenstein story. Okay. Anyhow. So, we should talk about this. I think, you know, it's a big story for us. I think it's a big story in this industry. I feel like it would have been a bigger story if he had left before they sold HP and there was all this craziness. And you didn't expect him to leave for the last two years. Well, did we expect him to leave when they sold out? When they sold HP... Is that microphone turned the right way? Yeah. You sound quiet. Yeah. Hello. You gotta get up on that thing. Yeah, you gotta make love to that mic. No, it's that way to sound. Yeah, there you go. You need to have it in front of your mouth. I'm just doing what I was told. You want me to... Let me explain how microphone works. How does this work? There's an area that you need to direct sound into. And it vibrates. I don't know. I don't really know how they work, to be honest. Is this better? We can tell the story, but he sold Palm to HP and it makes it sound like, especially in your interview, it's like, we failed. It was over. No. I was done. He definitely... He sounds like... If you're giving HP a timeline, hey, I got a year to two years with you guys, when... It's like HP was never this exciting savior for the company. It was just an out. No, I think what he was saying... There is an aspect to it like that, but I think that what he really was saying was, I thought we were gonna go in there, we were gonna get these amazing products out. We were gonna get webOS on track and have it be a thing in the cycle of... They thought it was gonna be important. Right. And it would be a thing in the cycle of HP products and once it was on its way, once the ship was sailing and everything was fine, he was gonna take a life raft to Mexico. Well, there was that moment when Mark Hurd left that people were like, well, will John Rubenstein be the next CEO of HP? Who knows? That might have been a... To go from that kind of conversation to how important he is at HP to, I'm just quietly leaving and I always plan to leave. There's something there that we're not hearing, without question. It's really hard to say, but there was... I think there has been speculation for a while that... No, for a while that he'd be leaving now. I just think that Mark... I think the thing after Mark Hurd was there was a vacuum and people were thinking, who could? And Rubenstein had just arrived and was a leader. And I think people were... I don't think there was any... To my knowledge, and I don't remember all the details... I don't think it was ever serious, but he was in the conversation. He may have been in the conversation in the press. I don't know if he was ever in a real conversation. Yeah, so they picked Leo instead. Leo. Yeah, he didn't have much to say about Leo. I will say that in your interview, one of the best quotes was like, I've had four CEOs in 19 months. It's true. Which is insanity. HP is... If you look at our story stream of the story, you really can get a feel for just how insanely chaotic it is. The patent pending story stream? Yeah. It's just been so chaotic, the way this company has been run for the last year or so. And only a story stream really gives you that bird's eye view. Only the patent pending story stream can really show you the narrative and... The proprietary technology. Proprietary technology. That is the only thing that can really show you the story in that kind of giving you the narrative. You just can't understand it otherwise. Well, I mean, you could understand if somebody maybe if somebody wrote it down. Or someone read the story stream out loud to you. No, but I mean, that is actually one of the great things. I tweeted about it today. And I know I talk about how great our stuff is all the time. And I'm like, verge this and verge that. But you know, Vox created story streams for SB Nation for their sports sites. And it's just so awesome to use it now. I mean, it was one of those things. You guys know. But like actually doing it and having these stories that unfold and you go like, well, how can I trace the steps to this and be able to do it that easily is really thrilling to me. I just get the vibe that Palm didn't have much of a roadmap past. I don't know if it was hoping that the pre-three and the veer and the touchpad, those were gonna be so awesome for the company, but they couldn't quite make it there financially. And then they were gonna make a new decision. But it seems like those were all their ideas. They had all those ideas. They went into HP and there were zero new ideas generated during the time. And Ruby in the interview was like, I was gonna get the touchpad out and leave. Yeah. That's not a plan for success. You've got to be thinking five years down the road. I do think the touchpad became a thing at HP where it was like, it's not about the phones. It's all about getting in the tablet space and they put all this energy into it. Which is actually sad because I think where you wedge in at this point is like you have a smartphone and you have an ecosystem that is around that smartphone and then you have this tablet thing come along. I feel like they put the cart before the horse on that. And the veer was just... The funniest thing to me was that while we were talking, I heard the webOS bell sound. It's one of the really memorable alert tones. And I was like, is that... Was that a webOS alert tone? And he was like really taken off. I mean, I couldn't depict it in text but he was like... He stopped for a second, just completely paused and he was like, what? I said, was that a webOS alert? As if he couldn't understand why I would even be asking the question. And he's using a veer, which I thought was insane. He really loved the veer and he loved these tiny little phones. Do you think he's used an iPhone yet? Whoa. I don't know. He said in the thing... That was a special one just to be right. I know. He said... I mean, just the fact that that has been like a five-year story. I know. It's been a meme forever. But I think... I mean, I don't know. I said, are you going to get a different phone? He was like, when's the iPhone 5 coming out? Oh, there you go. Did you read the interview? It's actually in there. I read a lot of the parts. You skimmed it. Thank you. I know you're busy. Yeah. I know you guys don't have time to read my stuff. It's cool. I actually always skip your byline. I'm sure you have a filter that shows everybody's stuff. It's a Chrome extension. It's really nice. Well, anyhow. So, Ruby is gone. This is not the only piece of webOS news. No, it's not the only piece of webOS news but I think it's an interesting... You know, it's a real landmark moment. I have a question. I was thinking about this with the story stream. Do we have one like a lengthy story stream that ends in success? All of our story streams are kind of like slow-motion car crashes. We have one for RIM. We have one for webOS and HP. I think if you look at like... I don't know, in the last Apple story stream we did, probably about one of their product releases. Okay, so the product one's sure. But all the other ones are like the TV industry is... No, I think we have a bunch. Do we have one for the retina display iPad? Oh, that'll end it. That's a good idea. Because that's gonna be a beautiful thing. All right. We need to come up with more positive story streams. That's all I'm saying. Well, I think... One's a document. Success is in the news. Well, I think there are like... Not just slow failures. Like our children, our future. I think there are positive story streams and then there's negative story streams. Then there's story streams that are really neutral when you think about it. Like the CES story streams are just... They're just facts. Just the facts. You can't be sad about the cameras of CES. You can't read this. There's so many cameras. No, I think you can. I think you can. You know, we were talking to... You know what was awesome? We went to the Apple event, the iBooks, and we were talking to Phil Schiller, who is, you know, pretty important guy at Apple. And he was like... He was like, hey, I read The Verge and he's like, I love the CES camera. Did we talk about this already on the podcast? We did. It's just cool. Like just thinking about it. To hear the people in the industry are... He bought his son the Fuji X10. The X100. Based on the Verge? The X100. Are you sure we talked about... I don't think we talked about this. We talked about it personally. Maybe you weren't in that conversation. Yeah. Paul was playing StarCraft. If we didn't talk about it, at the iBooks event, we were talking. We were obviously talking about the iBooks stuff. But then he was like, hey, I read The Verge all the time and I love the CES coverage and I read the stream of the cameras. And I guess... I don't know if that helped inform a decision or if he just had already bought his son a Fuji. Anyway. He's a camera guy. It was actually interesting talking about it. I mean, you know, when he did the iPhone 4S camera stuff, he was the guy who talked about the camera. I don't know if you recall. It turns out he is like a camera nerd. When they first did iChat AV... I think he was like walking... Like Steve was on stage but then he was walking into the keynote with a laptop or something like that. Yeah, he did that. And then they they put him in Paris one year for another demo. Oh yeah. Actually, you know, this leads into another story that wasn't in the list. So we'll talk about that, whatever that is. I don't know what it is because I don't have a computer with me. But so also this week WebOS went open source. Enyo and... Well, they have a new logo. Enyo has a logo. No, like open source WebOS. Enyo has a logo and that logo, I think. There's another logo? No, that logo is gonna grow into the whole family of WebOS things. And they switched to Linux kernel, which is kind of what Android is based on. I don't... It's... You know, they showed off some apps like running on different platforms. They switched to the Linux kernel that Android is based on. Yeah, like the more standard. Right. They had a very custom Linux kernel. Which is a good thing for porting to devices. Yes, that's right. But they showed some... It'll take a lot of works though. But it'll help. But they showed some demos of cross-platform apps and they're pretty bad, if you ask me. I mean, if this is like the showcase, it doesn't give me... It doesn't fill me with excitement. Yeah, you know, it's gotten to the point now. It's like, did you release an operating system or a web app development system? Yeah, I mean, it is... Well, that is a web app development system in many ways. I'm just... I'm not excited about it. I mean, I want to be excited, but there's just like... I don't know what you want. I mean, John was like, yeah, people are... I think there's gonna be people out there who want to put WebOS on devices, but I think there's gonna be people out there who want to use like the card interface and put it on an Android device. Well, we'll see. I hope. At least... Here's looking at you, Google. I mean, Matthias could just go grab it, right? Did you see the... Google has the new ad for the Nexus. Maybe it's not even that new, but like, you know, that... Circles? You can touch devices together to like share information, you know... Is that on TV they're showing that? I think it's... Well, it's a really long ad, so it might just be on the web, but maybe they'll spin out TV parts. I don't know how Google does its ads. It just creates YouTube videos sometimes and they're beautiful and emotional. They definitely don't run a lot of ads on TV. I mean, they don't run that many on TV. Verizon has been doing ads for the Galaxy Nexus, but... Anyways, you can touch two Google, you know, Galaxy Nexuses together, share information... NFC technology. That's such to share. Yeah, and you could... I mean, you know... This is the thing. You know, HP got their... You know, Palm got their first... No, I think this is the... They got their first. If anybody had a phone to touch. But they didn't... But they actually didn't do that. They just did between... They didn't do phone to phone. It's not... Did they? Maybe they did. I don't remember. You could tap things together, but it was like in your internal... I have to say, I think tapping things together is pretty much a gimmick. I love tapping things together. You need to show me like... You need to show me like... Show me the good... Show me the thing that's like, oh yeah, this is a great way to do it. You couldn't do it any other way. Hey, Josh, want to see a cool website that I was just browsing? Yeah, what is it? Oh, you could just... Or you just tell me the name. Oh, now it's on Neil's screen. Don't ever touch my screen again. I don't want somebody to be able to touch my computer and put a website on it. Do you? Do you want your children to be able to touch it? Yeah, think about it. I don't like anything about this one. Think about what you could do with that power. You don't want that. No one man should have all that power. Do you want to talk about more webOS? I mean, what's there to say? It's open source. The demos are bad. This is it. This is the last week of webOS being relevant. No, it's not. It may get very relevant. Maybe HP, HTC will create a bunch of webOS phones, because they need another platform. Yeah, no. They're going to trim their product line and they're going to... They've lost their leadership, the two people who were the leaders. Where's DeWitt? Is he still there? What's up with DeWitt? I like that he was like, the transition to DeWitt was very easy. It's like, where is DeWitt now? DeWitt was like there for one interview. He didn't do anything. He's like, I'm here. Catch you later. Yeah, we're going to open source it. See you later. He didn't even say that. That's true. He didn't say... He was just there for like right after the touchpad launched. He was the guy who was like... They're putting him in to replace Rubenstein because he messed up. That's what everybody assumed. But DeWitt didn't do anything. What has DeWitt done lately? You better bring it, DeWitt. We definitely need a shirt that says that. What has DeWitt done lately? That's bad. There's a how we do it joke here somewhere. No, there isn't. Look, it's over. I think this week is... That's it. It's over. What do you mean it's over? It's going to be as thriving as Linux. Any other open source thing that's kind of floating out there, there's going to be people who are going to work on it and I'm sure they'll enjoy themselves. I don't see it as being... I do not think that maybe in some company, Huawei or something is going to license it to create their low end device. Not even license it, just use it to make... But why would they do that? They have Android. Why would you use this if you have access to Android? This goes right into the next. What was the Chinese company that bought Palm Source? Access. Access. They were not a Chinese company. Yeah, they were. Access Linux Group. Was it? Yeah. Oh. I thought it was... It was the Access Linux platform. What was the other... I just remember I went to Mobile World Congress one year and there was a bunch of different little Linux for phone things that they were all trying to get off the ground. Access was one of them. Remember when we first saw it was like Access had created... It wasn't exactly the next Palm OS, but it was like this could be it. Yeah. And I remember being really excited about it and then that never happened. Yeah, it's funny. I read this headline when I saw the open source of WebOS and I got excited. And I don't know why that still gets me excited. Then I read it and it's like there's nothing here to be excited about. There's no facts. There's nothing helpful. I don't know who is going to be excited enough about this to do something with it. I mean, the WebOS... Wait, the thing is it just sounds cool to me. WebOS internals. It does sound... Well, it sounds cool, but there's no... This is the mobile market doesn't let open source operating systems happen the way they happen on the desktop, right? What was that phone you could buy that had the open source... It was like an open source phone. I'm sure it's blanket. With the hardware? Yeah, the hardware kit. I'm just blanking on the name right now. Oh, we can put them together. No, no, no. That was Bug... Bug lab? No, Bug is the modular. Are you talking about Modu? What is it called? Modu? Was it Modu? Oh, yeah. Remember the one that was like you could buy the whole kit? Yeah, yeah. I really wanted to get one of those. Modu is the one that slides... No, no, no. It's not Modu. It was before that. Come on, somebody in Ustream. I'm not in chat. What am I thinking of? Anyhow, it's fine. You were going to go into the next... I was going to the next thing, which is another sad story stream, which is RIM. RIM. RIM opened the week of news by announcing their new CEO. Oh, yeah. Torsten Heinz. Which is... If you were going to be a company run by two crazy people, and you're like, let's go with the guy who... I like how you just flat out just calling... Their crazy people. Right. The former CEOs crazy to their virtual faces. Well justified. And they're like, let's go with... What's the most evil dictator? Torsten Heinz. Yep. There you go. You said he's the villain from Die Hard 1? Torsten Heinz. Anyhow, yeah, no, he's... He seems a little unhinged too. It's not just calculating. He seems insanely unhinged. And then so he had a quote, speaking of Android, his quote was, Blackberry is a differentiated product with a real chance to succeed. Android OEMs are all the same. Is differentiated. It actually gives you a little clock. It actually shows a little timer thing when it's doing things sometimes, even on its most recent, most powerful device, it actually shows you a clock and freezes the phone while it does what it's thinking. It is a different beast entirely. To my untrained eye, if you're a company who gets a lot of flack for its crazy co-CEOs, and so you're like, you know what? Let's get rid of the co-CEOs, get a brand new guy that will just be one CEO. Yeah, single CEO. And investors are going to love this. Mono CEO. This is really going to make us look great in the market. That guy should not come out swinging saying everything RIM has been doing is awesome. I mean, I really have to say the fact that we have a stream called Turmoil at HP and a stream called Turmoil at RIM really points to just how sad story streams have become for us. What I want to know is, are people using the word turmoil? I feel like they're not. I feel like that's a word that we were... It's a very dramatic word. Dire straits. Yeah. No. Dire straits at RIM. Dire straits at RIM. More CEOs. These can rock. No, but... Worst DVD box set ever, I have to say. Performing live in Waterloo. Dire straits live in Waterloo on the RIM campus. But I do... At the Hard Rock Cafe. Waterloo. Waterloo. I do have to say, it does seem like he is definitely towing the company line. Like he's definitely saying the same things we've been hearing. In a belligerent way. He's really mad about it. And I think that they keep... They have this trope. They've got this meme there. They keep going. They keep harping on, which is, you know, you're just looking at America. You're just... We're in this developing nation saying, that's great. I'm happy for them. But Nokia said the same thing for years and now they make Windows phones. So you know what? I know that you guys want to be there and that you should be there. Great. But you need to be here too. And like that's the place that everybody's paying attention to. Unfortunately for the developing world, the place where people are looking to judge your success is not in India right now. I mean, that's just the sad truth of it. I think the RIM needs to stop talking and put out a new operating system. And then they can start talking again. They need to see that Home Depot commercial. They've been doing this for... Less talking, more doing. How many years ago was the super apps thing? Oh, God. That was like maybe two years ago. And it's like, you guys know what we're talking about. Like, no, we still don't know what you're talking about. That was the torch. The original torch was super apps. No, no, no. And it was. OS 6. It was at a developer conference even before the torch. Before the torch, it was OS 6. They introduced OS 6 and they were like, this is the new OS. It's really awesome. And it's got super apps. And they didn't justify or explain what super apps are at all. RIM doesn't need to say out loud that they missed the cycle. Even if they did, they don't have to say it out loud. But they need to stop acting like they haven't missed the cycle out loud until they get a new product. I have this thing, and I think maybe I've talked about it in the podcast before. Maybe I haven't. The Vergecast, sorry. But I have this thing where I don't think it's good to ever talk about what you're doing or what you're going to do. It's really just the best thing is to do it. It's to not tell everyone how great something's going to be just to go and make it great. And I think that that's what they need to do right now. They need to not talk about how good they're doing anywhere or even how bad they've done. They just need to impress the hell out of people. They need to have a web OS moment, which they haven't had yet. And I don't know how they're going to have. Go ahead. I was just going to say, I just don't know what the appetite is for people at this point. What need is Android and the iPhone not serving besides having a great physical keyboard? And honestly, maybe somebody, you can get an Android device with a Blackberry keyboard. This is something I think this is something that Microsoft is doing pretty well. It's not ultra defensive about Windows Phone. It's like, yeah, we know our market share is not great, but they keep on working at it. And I'm sure they're thinking really hard about. Hey, there's a horse and rabbit that always runs, that always suits up. It's a crazy quote. And it's going to run. I mean, there's no, yeah, there's no benefit, there's no prize in having another mobile operating system. You have to have something different and new for people. Yeah, and I just wonder now is, you know, Playbook 2, I mean, get out of my face. Like, there's not a tablet I want to look at less than the Playbook. Also, you know what's funny about that is that they're doing this Android player stuff. Yeah. And it's like. Which is insane. Dude, you, Android apps suck on a tablet. They're all bad. Right. So your strategy for tablet apps. You're going to run that Twitter for Android on a tablet, which is like Twitter with really long lines, you know, because it's not formatted for a tablet. I mean, make a better platform for developers to go to. Right. Show them like an awesome SDK that rivals Apple's. Instead of 50 SDK. What? Inyo. Inyo. They're like, we're using Inyo now to create. No, but like, who knows? They may. You can create Playbook apps with Inyo. Well, you know, I think the bigger problem with all this change is they have this new CEO. He's already walking back. Interim. Interim. No, he's the new guy. I thought they called him an interim. Thorsten Heintz. It's actually pronounced Torsten from what I understand. Torsten. Whatever. Either way sounds evil. Yeah. Either way is evil. I mean, he will definitely shoot you if he crosses. I don't think he'll shoot you. He'll do something far worse. You'll want him to shoot you. You'll wish he'd shot you. This is terrible. I'm sure he's a fine man. He's a family man. He's a family man. He's a family man. He has kids. I mean, I'm sure he's a nice guy. His name does sound a little evil. Yeah. And he sounds a little like not totally getting the program. But you know, look. But I'm saying he's already walking back. That's what I'm saying. He did an interview with Crackberry. He was very hot to talk to Crackberry. This is something I just want to say like. The last people left. Well, this is something that RIM, I think RIM does. And I'll just speak from this like a little inside baseball, but I want to talk about it. I think they tend to go to, they want to find people who are going to give them favorable coverage and they try to avoid people who they're worried might not give them favorable coverage. And I actually think it's a bad strategy when you're trying to reestablish yourself. I think it's like talk to the people who may be hard on you because when you do something good, those people are going to be the people that readers go, oh, I actually should take a look at this. Yeah. Not like the, you know, no offense to Crackberry. They do a great job. But they're obviously Blackberry fans. You know, like they want, they're clearly, you know, want rooting for RIM to like do cool stuff. I think the real danger is if you keep hyping up your true fans and letting them down over and over again, they will just leave. No, that is a danger. And you do see that, like there's a lot of cheerleading going on, but you guys have to deliver. Right. I mean, I have the new bold in my bag right now. Yeah. And you know what? I actually, there's a lot of stuff that's really great about what they do. I think there's some great things they do. I think they're, I mean, their Gmail integration, the sync stuff still doesn't work properly, but it is actually integrated where you can label and star an archive that plus like a unified inbox of like your tweets. And like I've actually come around to the unified inbox a little bit, which I think is great and they really pull it off with all of your messages in one place. I think like BBM is kind of whatever now because Apple is doing the same thing. I don't think it's at their strength anymore. It may be because people are plugged into that network, but as soon as everybody graduates to an iPhone, they're no longer plugged into that network. And I think they no longer care. It's an interesting phrase. It's like graduates to an iPhone. Well, I mean, that's what they're doing. People don't see, people see getting an iPhone if you have a Blackberry as a graduation to a better product. And that's why RIM has lost market share. And we should talk about these numbers too. Yeah. I will, but I just want to say, like, I think that there are strengths. I do think their keyboards are great. I think they make beautiful hardware. I think their screens are great. You know, the screen on the bold is beautiful. I think that that- They were the first to do high resolution screens actually. Is that right? Yeah, without question. And I think that like the design, the aesthetic is actually has some decent stuff going on. I think that they have, they're doing nothing to like, they should play up these things. They should have shipped the playbook with an awesome unified email and messaging experience. That would have been an, that would have been like advantage RIM. Like no one else does this. Collect all of your tweets, all of your IMs, all of, you know, beam the IMs over from, or not IM, sorry, the SMS is from your phone to the thing, you know. All of your instant messages, everything else in one place. Like that would have been a value add that no one else was doing except for Palm really kind of sort of, but not so much. But they didn't do it. It's like they're, you know, they have cool flash demos. They wanted people to make flash games. You know, it's like, it's like every mistake imaginable. Go ahead. What were you going to say? Numbers. Numbers. No, I was going to, you know, it's interesting you say graduate to an iPhone because I think we saw a lot of that. I mean, Apple announced its results this week and they're massive. So I mean, this thing is. Blow away results, right? Yeah. I can just read numbers now. They made $13 billion in profit, which is over 50% of their, like they're 50% higher than the previous record. And what do they have? They have something crazy in the bank now. It's like 90. 90 billion. 93 billion dollars, like in cash. Yeah. And it's, they have so much money, they have to like start preemptively addressing it on the calls. Like we're finding, we're thinking about ways to use it. We're going to figure something out. It was like a year or two ago, Tim Cook was like, look, every once in a while there's a strategic move that you can be prepared for. That was when they had 50 million. Right. Yeah. 50 billion. A billion. Sorry. They're at the point, I think somebody calculated they could like pay off the entire debt of Greece and like still be fine. Well, they said somebody was, so I can't think of who wrote this. It was either, I don't want to get, I don't want to get the author wrong, but somebody wrote something which about, oh, maybe it was Eric Schoenfeld on TechCrunch about they should buy the, they should buy Hollywood. Yeah. And he lists the market caps of, of like Universal and Warner Brothers and they could buy, they could buy like all of the major studios and still have like 30 billion dollars leftover, which is, which is like just for a second, they could, they, I mean, obviously they would get hit with tons of antitrust and monopoly stuff. They could buy most of the mobile companies. Yeah. No, they're, they're enormous. Except for carriers. Let's think about things that would actually be good for Apple to do with that money. Oh, we should, well, I don't know if you want to, do you want to keep talking about numbers? Let me just, let me just read off the numbers. They sold 37 million iPhones. Sold 15 million iPads. Do they say how many, do they say how many? There's a market share thing that's going around today about. Yeah, they're, they're back in the lead. They're like, they're, they're winning again. Yeah, they're way, or no, they, they, the market share of Android went down for the first time in a while. Yeah. iPhone went up. Well, I think, I mean, I do think that there's a couple of reasons for that. In five, five million max. And they, they sold two, they sold 2 million more phones than Samsung shipped. They're, they're, and the only thing they went down on is iPod sales. But that's always. Right. But that's on the decline now. Do they say, do they break out what iPhones they sold? They don't. They say by far the four S's. But they don't say the number. No. I bet, I bet they're selling a lot. It has to be the vast majority. A lot, I mean, a lot of those, no, a lot of a hundred dollar iPhone fours and a lot of free iPhone. Oh, I mean, I'm sure they're doing. I mean, they're definitely, I mean, I think if you go into a store, if you're going to go there to buy a feature, free feature phone or something and you can get a free iPhone. Right. I mean, what human being would go like, no, I don't, I'm not going to do that. Was it, I think it was, it was Katie that did the, the, the retweets of people. It was like, it was like during Christmas people like. Oh, I didn't get. Yeah. Yeah. Swearing at their parents. I think a few, I think a few people did things, but there was, there were definitely like, there was this meme of people saying, complaining because they didn't get an iPhone. Like I might as well die now. Yeah. Well, it is, it is like, it's, it's that item. I just, I just, I mean, it's obviously. Tickle me Elmo for adults. It's a hot item. Teenagers. I just saw this picture today of a girl who just got an iPhone four. She's like 14 and she's like, oh, crying. Oh yeah. It's not, it's running down. It's like, and, and I just wonder, this is something we were talking about. I don't know a couple of years ago. I feel like that, you know, Android was selling well and it's continued to sell well and will continue to sell well, but it wasn't necessarily the best experience right away. It's getting a lot better very rapidly, but, but I can imagine a lot of people have had bad experiences with it or, you know, they had the last two years or yeah, or the last two years. They bought the original droid on Verizon cause they can get, I mean, do you think Apple isn't aware of this? Right. Or they, or they had a friend who like, who got, you know, you know, evil 4g and really liked it first, but then the battery life, you know, just started having problems. You know, like, you know what, when I get a smartphone or when I tell my parents what to buy me for Christmas, I'm going to get an iPhone for it. Well, I mean, think about, think about the timing. I mean, the original droid was released in October of 2009. Timing is like right in line. This phone came out October of 2011. So there's a, you get a huge bunch of Verizon customers who were desperate to get a decent smartphone who went and bought the first droid. You know, what's interesting is that AT&T sold like 1.6 million more iPhones. Well, they're selling more and more every day. I'm more than Verizon. Yeah. Well, but, but like 20% AT&T has a larger user base they said, and there's in their earnings. Yeah. They're, they're, they're really because of who was it they acquired that they gave them the larger, it was, um, us cellular. No, it wasn't Verizon. How more of like, uh, they just, they just acquired somebody like a year or two ago that gave them a larger AT&T did. Yeah, they did. Where's Chris Ziegler right now? I don't know. They definitely acquired a like regional, like a rather large regional Bell, some I'm telling you, unless I'm completely high and drunk, you might be thinking, I isn't an all tell. No, no. It was an AT&T acquisition T-Mobile. Yeah. They tried. No, it wasn't T-Mobile. It was like a year, maybe two years ago, a little while ago. Um, they acquired somebody, but then Verizon passed them again. I don't think so. Yeah. They've been really nice. I don't even know what the, I really, somebody could just tell me that I was pretty sure that Verizon was heading subscribers. They claim they have more subscribers. I mean, which one should I drink? Coke or Pepsi? I just can't decide which company will treat me worse day to day. I know which one will rot my insides faster. Um, but, but so we should talk about, I want to talk about Apple and what they can do with their money. And, but I also want to touch on, there's been, there were two New York times articles directly related to Apple's money. In my opinion. And they were articles. One was about really about the US economy. It wasn't even about Apple. It used Apple and the iPhone as a kind of, uh, as a, yeah, as the framework to tell a different story, which was here's how screwed up our economy is basically. And then, um, you know, like here's like where all our jobs went basically in America. And then, and then they did a follow-up story, which was like, so the gist of that story was all our jobs went to China where, which we all know, but where, you know, labor is cheap and they'll do anything that anybody, that any American company wants, especially Apple. They can get 3000 people to like build iPods in the middle of the night and then live in a dorm. Yeah. And they, and they actually had a piece of some, some anecdote in there that was, um, Apple came to check out one of the factories and they had built a new wing or they were under construction. And they were like, we're building this just in case we get the contract. You know, it's like, who, where is that? It's like, that's millions. I'm sure millions and millions of dollars in investment to build, you know, tens of millions of dollars to build a new factory. And they're just like, well, maybe you'll choose us. So we just jumped the gun on this. Um, but then the follow-up story was of course, um, that working conditions are terrible for people in China, uh, at these factories, Foxconn. And, and I want to stress these are not just Apple factories and they kind of, they kind of gloss over that in the, in the article. Yeah. Like Dell factories, but they are Dell. They're HP factories. They're everybody's. This is where all everybody's stuff is made. But, and I think, and I'll just say this, like you should read them. We covered them on the, on the site. We added a few little anecdotal pieces. Um, you should read the New York Times articles, both of them. But, uh, uh, what I will say is I think the gist of the Times article on what I, what I think makes is getting people a little bit burned up right now about the, about Apple's role now, Apple has taken a lot of proactive steps, uh, more than most companies, I think at least more, they've done more visible stuff. Like they just released a report about the conditions of their factories and talked about how they deal with problems. And so I do think they are addressing the problem in some way, but, um, I think what people are getting enraged about, and this to me is what I would kind of makes me, um, not angry, but feel like they could do, there could be more that could be done. First off, there is this confluence of events that are incredible. Right. It's the one for one is, you know, we have a very bad job situation in America. Then we've got Apple, which is like the pinnacle of American companies, American designs, American ingenuity, and just a world beating, just completely insane, you know, ideas, um, that is more profitable than any company. With a higher profit margin. Yeah. I mean, just completely crazy profit margin, completely crazy money in the bank. And, and so you've got, so you've got that piece and you've got, you know, Steve Jobs his wife sitting next to Michelle Obama at the state of the union and Obama talking about how Apple is the, you know, is, you know, we want more Steve Jobs in this country and then saying, we want to bring jobs back from China. And then there's a quote from Steve Jobs in the New York Times saying to somebody at a dinner with Obama, those jobs are never coming back from China to America. And so you've got like, then you've got them with all this money, you've got these quotes out there, this weird situation that's like political situation almost because Apple now matters in our politics. Like when you, when you look at this, when you look at the broad, like if that, those were the jobs are, you know, if it, they're the new car company and then, then you've got to report about these terrible conditions and Apple has established itself as a leader. They've said, we're leading this, we're the leaders. Right. And they also say that they think different, right? We're Apple. We don't do things the way the other guys do. We don't, you know, our factories are different, like, or they should be. If you're going to start, you know, and if you're going to say, hey, we're the leader and we do the best job possible and we're going to, we can change things. And that was the kind of their thing, right? We can change things and we are changing things. Then I think what gets people really wild up is you look at this, this combination of events and this kind of vibe and Apple's like, look, we issued a report and it's like, but you could do more. You could take way less than half of your 93. Now you can go from 44% to 40%. You could take your 93 billion and then just completely revamp it. Revamp the working conditions for anybody in any factory. The only thing is that, yes, they could revamp working conditions and make them awesome in China. And that's, you know, that's one thing. Well, that's the human, the human. But as far as bringing the jobs to America, you know, there's a lot of things as far as the components and the, you know, the actual physical, the way they're fabricated, you know, material and that sort of stuff that's not easy to get. And that was the quote in the times as well, where it's like, well, you, you're making the motherboard factory, but the silicon processing factory is down the street. Right. But that's like, that's a lot of, that's a big chain. And that gives them the ability to iterate quickly on things. But China's bought up a lot of mines and stuff. Like they have a lock on a lot of very smart, very smart of them. A lot of the resources that have been used in the world in China actually. And the really biggest what? Brain collection. Brain collection. They just buy the mines. No, not what? I don't understand that joke. Can you help me? M-I-N-E-S. Oh, those mines. Like minecraft. I thought you said mines. Wait, what? Why would, why would they be? Wait, what do you think he said? Mines? I thought he said mines. Like they purchase mines. Oh, what? That doesn't make any, mines. He was obviously saying mines, like M-I-N-E. You're, you're weird. Why would you even think that? I don't know. What? Get out. But, but, no, no, but that, but you know, the, don't even get me, the mines are a whole another story, right? Get out of my face. You sure survive. Because, because, don't. I would actually like somebody smarter than me to, to, you know, figure out, you know, obviously a lot of car jobs have come back to America. Yeah. And, and, and, and in fact, Japanese companies and other, you know, other car companies from other countries have brought jobs to America where they originally didn't have it. And that's, that's the hot thing. And a lot, you know, sometimes that's, you know, working with state governments and stuff to do that. But I just wonder if there's something about electronics and this is what I'd like to know that makes it impossible. Well, it's, I think, I think that might be. It does seem like there are definite real things that, that they might not be able to change in the short term, like what you're describing, but they do say in that New York Times article that, that, that there's, they estimate that an iPhone made, built, assembled here in America, not, not with components from American factories, but taking those components and assembling them would cost like an additional $65 to the, to the end user. Right. So I think a lot of people would pay. I think people, I really think people would pay. I'll tell you this, if you gave me an option, if you said the phone will be 65 more dollars or even a hundred more dollars, but you, it's made in America. If there was a button I could click somewhere, I'd click that, I would click that button because I, because I live in America and I want our country to be, to be, to be economically sound and jobs are how you make a country economically sound and, and unless you have tons of oil, which we don't. So. Oil? Oil. We have a lot of oil. Yeah. We just don't want to mine it. Well, God. Drill. Just mine, dude. Drill. I don't know. Obama said, Obama said he's, he's cracking open offshore drilling again. Did you really watch the State of the Union? Yeah. Why? I don't know. He's cracking open. He's getting, you know what I love? You know what I love? Nobody seems to mind. Remember BP? Remember the oil spill, the oil leak? Remember totally poisoned the golf? Nobody cares. Now they're like, let's get the mine. I actually, I saw a BP ad the other day. They're like, we're still working on it. The BP ads are really depressing. They're like, they're like, this fish is safe to eat probably. Look, there's nothing to worry about. Like a kid comes out of the water completely in like black, like dripping oil. Like a fish man. Yeah. Like a fish, a fish man. Somebody's like, it's a fish man. Like, no, it's just a kid who went swimming. In the golf. No, I'm sure it's fine. I don't know. You know, actually that, that it, as sad as that is, it's a really good example of what happened this week with the Apple story. Cause we immediately forgot like as a country, we forgot about the, we forgot about the golf. I mean, like it was this thing. No, it's, it's gone. It's a bad, we put our blinders on. We go, we go, we got to keep going. And the times piece is all, you know, all the quotes and executives where nobody cares. Like we know this is a problem and nobody cares. I don't think people do care. I mean, look, it's a really removed, it's a really distant, here's what people care about jobs. And you start, you start explaining to them that there is a way to bring jobs back to America and that Apple is in some way standing in the way of that. And they'll care. We don't know that that's the case. I mean, there may be reasons why they just can't bring them here. That may be possible. Well, I think those reasons are really, but I will say just in the short term of this week, it was like they were saying in the article, no one cares about this. And then the reaction to the article was kind of nobody cared about it. I mean, like we care about it. We're talking about it. I think it's going to take. There was no uptake. Sure people don't care about it. I think people care about it. Can I like spoil a feature that I've been thinking about writing? No, no, no, no, don't do that. Don't do that. Just so many good ideas. No, no, no, because I, because I run the site and I'd like you to write the feature. What do you say? Don't talk about a, if it's a good feature, why would you, don't give it away. You guys, some guy, somebody, some blogger out there. I'm going to register the domain name. Right. This would be another app snack or all over again. I, I, I, I might, I may or may not have a forthcoming feature. Don't say it. That, that might help convince you that people will want to pay more for, for. Well, now you've basically given away your whole feature. Is it a survey? No, just be quiet. So I'm talking about this feature, but I'm interested to read it. It's about, it's about economy. How quickly can you have that ready to go? I'll just, I'll start on it right now. Can you do it right now? Yeah. Can you, by the end of this first cast, can you be finished? You know, I probably couldn't have at some other publication, but with story streams, I think I can. With the, with the patent pending story streams, you'll be able to do it. Nice. But I do think, I do think like this is a, this is a thing that we have to confront. I mean, I think that it's really, you know, and I touched on this a little bit. I think when we were talking about CS stuff, I think we talked about this a little bit, but it's like, we're in this weird position. And by the way, like I see us as covering this culture and I think that that's going to evolve, you know, we just launched the site and I think there's a lot of stuff we want to do with the site we haven't done yet. And a lot of type of coverage we want to do that we haven't done yet that we're going to do a lot more of or that we've done some of it we want to do more. But, but, you know, it's tough going to a place like CS and knowing the reality, which is, you know, how these things are made and the economy of how they're made and how it's like really kind of- Actually, you know, with the most direct and, you know, it's not- Go on. Maybe not tightly correlated, but, you know, we don't go to CS and see 10,000 anonymous American tablet manufacturers. That's right. We go there and we see 10,000 anonymous Chinese tablet manufacturers. I mean, I was actually going to say, you know, Laura and I were talking about this and it was like, you can't, don't have, you don't have an option. Like, like we were actually, cause we're vegetarians, right? And especially in places like New York, you can go to a place that's like vegetarian food and they'll say this food is from a nearby farm. It wasn't, you know, we didn't burn a bunch of oil to bring it in. Cause there's a market for it. It doesn't have chemicals in it. It's an enormous market. Cause there's a market for it. But there is no slow food vegetarian option for electronics. You know, there is no like home, like home made, like American made. What are the American made gadgets? But, but, but, but to Neelai's point, it's, it's like yes, there isn't that. And there's, there's not an opportunity to make that like, so like if for farming, right? Like farms exists. And let's say there was a bad, evil corporate farm. It's like, you know what? Your margins aren't that hot. Let's go over here. You know what? All we have to do, let's reform some of your practices. Let's adhere to this published guideline and you know, peer review it. I don't know how they, I don't know how farmers work. I got, there's a number of ideas. Where are you to peer review a chicken? Yeah. Peer review chicken. I'd like to point out that chickens checking out chickens, but two weeks ago, Paul told us that he personally examined millions of potatoes. I know. I want to hear this. I'm just saying in America, there's a lot of farms. You could go to a farm and turn it into a high standards, free range chicken. I mean, if you'd like to, and, and you can literally go into any business in America. And I mean, it is possible. I mean, you, you get to a certain volume. I think it's really hard to, I mean, when it comes to animal processing, I mean, we don't have to go down this rabbit hole, no pun intended, but, but like, I think when it gets to like mass animal processing, you do get to a point where like, you can't be humane because you're, it's like a machine, like literally a killing machine. But, but I see what you're saying. Like, I think where you're going is, So you need like, you need an industry there to reform. And so like, I don't know anybody, you know, if you're in China or like, right. Like juju. It's like, I know guys, I have money. There's some people ready to make some electronic Anonymous Asian investors. Right. You know, there's all these connections to a factory. We've got a factory. We're not doing much right now. We're just making some knockoff, something. Let's make an original thing, you know, that's all around. And so you could go in there and you could create a product and you could do innovation. Like in the US, it's like, I know a ton of graphic designers. So I could probably make a graphic design shop or I know a bunch of musicians. We could probably start a band, but I don't know, like, I don't know somebody who owns an electronics factory. Well, they don't exist here. I mean, they do for some things, I'm sure. And I don't have all the data. So to get it, sure. But like to get a US labeled tablet, like built in the US. Right. What would it take? What would it take? I don't know. I don't know either. And until a company like Apple says, you know what we're going to do? We're going to, because that's what a leader does. I mean, that's what a company that wants to lead in something does. And you see these hobbyist electronics all the time. What's the gaming device, Pandora or whatever? Yeah. That's how long has that been in development? It's not. But the funny thing about the Pandora is guys with the great idea, but they don't have any manufacturing. Even if they get all, no, but it's not even about the connections. But at the end of the day, they still have to get that thing made in China. No, exactly. So that's the thing. It's like they have this great idea. They've got it all designed. It's all ready to go. There's no, there is no. Now they have to work with people in China. They don't know how to do it. And that's why I think you see a lot less hardware startups in the US because you don't have direct ties. I mean, let's just get, let's just get outsource it. Let's just be clear. Things would have to change for Apple to do what it does overseas here in America. But you could change some of it. It could do it pretty quickly, too. I believe. I mean, I believe that let's just start with, hey, guess what? There's a ton of people here in America who would love to manufacture your, to build your iPhones, to assemble them for you. So the parts can be sourced from all over the world. I just, hold on. But there are a lot of people here who would love to assemble them. I mean, unfortunately, and this is the real, this is the reality. The labor is cheap in China. It's so cheap. We can't even fathom how cheap it is. Like no one in America would work for that money. Absolutely. No one would work for it. You know what? The other thing in the US is like, not a lot of people, even if it paid well, not a lot of people in America aspire to do that work. And to be honest, in China, it's going to get to a point as the economy continues to go up, there's people going to aspire to do it. I disagree. I think if Apple had a factory here, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like Ford was in the in the 50s. I think it's like, that's the place where you get an awesome job. You have great benefits. You have probably a great union. And there's a chance to become like management or whatever. I think that's like a classic American job. I know. I just don't think most, I mean, most of the people I know. I think they'd rather do that than go to Morgan McDonald's. Most of them went to college and I guess maybe they want to go to the job afterwards. That's one aspirational path. But I mean, like, I know a lot of people who live around like the John Deere factory. Yeah. Maybe I have a perspective. I don't know. Okay. Well, then that's all the people of all the people who wouldn't know more blue collar folks who might want to have a job at a factory. I'm surprised that you're not the guy. I'm surprised the guy in the velvet blazer actually. No, I was. Look, look, I will tell you what, you know, look at my outfit. Okay. I worked. I worked with potatoes, right? Yeah, right. Guess what? Guess what I wanted to do? Graphic design. Get out of that potato town. Yeah. Get out of the potato town. Right. Right. Screenplay. Paul Miller, Escape from Potato Town. Seriously, I would take a sack lunch to work and I had a sharpie marker to mark the potato bins and I would write song lyrics on my paper sack lunch. Oh, God. You're like a guy from a Levi's ad. Can I just say our producer, Creighton, is standing there and I can't tell if he's laughing. Are you laughing? He's mocking. He's mocking us. This is his job. But listen, but look, look, but also, also, I need to, I need to rewind just a little bit because at some point in chat, Neal I said I'm the cheapest date in the game. No, I said I was the cheapest date in the game. Oh, don't, come on. He's not, okay. Because I finished my margarita. Hold on, I want to get back on this conversation for a second. So I just want to say, like, I do think that that could be a real thing here. I mean, I do think that, you know, it's like we don't have the infrastructure to support Apple building products here, but like the, I think that. Wait, that infrastructure is deep though. We don't have, we don't have like the schools to support the people to learn it. I mean, Apple couldn't build a factory here tomorrow and put people in it. No, I know that, but stuff doesn't come out of thin air. Like you have to make it. And Apple, Apple is the one company or. Well, now they have the money. That could play that long game and they could. No, they could, but here, and that's the problem. That's why I think Apple is like, you know, and Tim Cook, we, we publish this thing. Apparently Tim Cook wrote a letter to his, to the team to Apple and said, Hey, you know, we're working on this. This is, we're outraged by this insinuation that we're not. And I get that. But the truth is iPhones are made in China. China is a communist country, it's under communist rule and really it's really more like fascist rule. It's not really communist rule. I mean, I think it's a perversion of communism when you really look hard at it. I don't want to go down this rabbit hole either, but I think that it's a place where the government and industry can exert tremendous amounts of control over the people there and over the workers there. And I think it's a place where Apple can go and get pennies on the dollar labor and that makes their bottom line fatter. And until Apple is, is going to, until any company says, I'll accept a less of a fat bottom line for a more, for either more fair labor or more labor in the country where I, my company is based, we're not going to change. Have you seen Last Train Home? No. Well, if you want to cry a lot. What is it? Well, it's, it's about, I do, and I do want to cry a lot by the way. No, it's about some, you know, like a provincial Chinese family and the parents go into the city to work in a factory and their life sucks. And they're in the city the whole year. They're working like seven days a week, crazy hours. And then once a year for Chinese New Year, maybe there's one other time in the year that they come home, they, everybody gets on a train. And so they, it's like this huge mass migration where hundreds of millions of people. Oh, is this a documentary or is this, it is documentary. Yeah. I've heard of this. It's really wild. And it's like, there's a reason everybody's doing, working at these factories. It's very financially viable. If you stay home on your, you know, in your small town, you're going to, I don't know, starve. It's, it's not, I mean, it's not as profitable as working for Apple. But you know, the, the, the economy has them over a barrel. Like they would love to stay home with their children instead of being away from their children for an entire year working in a factory. There's like, if, if there, if you can, if you, here's the thing, like, there's this, this flip side of that where people say, well, you know, this is their developing nation. And, you know, at some point things will get better as like, you know, this becomes more of a focus. And this is in a lot of ways improving their standards of living. It's improving their standards of living. But, but the difference there is like, you're making the assumption that at some point these workers will gain a control that they just simply won't. I mean, we're not, we're not pressing China on being. Well, they did it. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Well, it worked in the, they did it here. But we're not, they did it in the United States. We're not a fascist, we were not a fascist dictatorship. We weren't a communist, a fascist communist country. But I mean, we were a country where there were like, we believe that like it's, that our citizens had some kind of like rights and liberty. It's in China's interests as a country to keep these like margins as tight as they are. Because, because it's making their country rich. And if their country's rich, they can have a really nice big military. One word for you, Olympics. No, but, but, but we're, we are in denial of the truth. We are in denial of the truth. Did you know that, that, that there was another, There's another alleged murder. Uglier girl under the stage singing that anthem. What? I see. No, no, but. Second uglier girl. But, but, but. Did you know? Okay. But. That's really sad. But anyhow, the point is that there is no, there is no call to action anywhere except for those workers and those, I mean, if those workers go on strike, it's not inconceivable that people would just start getting killed. Like you understand, in fact, our ambassador, if you read in the last week's business week, the ambassador to China, US ambassador to China says human rights abuses in China are getting worse. Yeah. Okay. That's a quote. I'm quoting. He says they're getting worse. And, and, and they're worried. He said that the leaders there are worried about an Arab spring in China. And so they're going to put the, they're going to put the boot heel on these people. And it's like, there is no reason to think, and this is the truth. There is no reason to think that they wouldn't just simply kill people who, who don't agree with what the government does there, because that's what they do. They do that now. And we, we are all ignorant or, or, or willfully ignorant. Willfully ignorant of that fact. If, if, I mean, there's no way that anybody can sit here and, and, and pretend like that's not a reality because it is. So the question is, at what point does our economic involvement in China start to supersede their own right of self-determination, right? Wait, I'm confused about that question. Like we buy things from factories in China. I'll tell you what. Right. At what point do we say, well, our responsibility because we buy stuff is more important than your right as a country and as a citizenry to control your own country? I would just say, you know what, if I'm an American, if I'm a rich, if I'm a rich American company that has a lot of money in the bank, and I know that my people in my country are hurting because they don't have jobs, and I know that people in their country are hurting because the job conditions suck, you know what I'd do? I'd say, I'm going to take a few billion of my dollars and go do some of my stuff in America. And if you guys, if you guys want to do what we're doing here more than, you know, get better conditions going for your workers. I think it's a win-win. We get workers here and they get better conditions over there. I think there's two things. Sure. For one, there's one company that has those margins, only one. Well, all the companies are making money. They're making money or they go out of business. They're all doing turmoil at RIM, turmoil at HP. And Apple has- RIM built some of their stuff in Canada, by the way. Apple has had some serious points in its history that everybody knows a lot about, where it looked like it was going to go under. So, you know, it's understandable for them to want to have a little bit put away. 93 billion dollars. No, it's got to an extreme extent. I agree. I want them to protect their interests. But that said, I do think there really could be a way, in an insane investment, and it will be trying to get access to the raw resources and stuff that are required, but to build factories in the U.S. Well, no, you're not- And also to start- Hold on, wait. To also start- So something that Foxconn is doing is they're doing a lot of innovation in automating factory lines. Like, factory lines get more and more efficient, which is why, even as minimum wage has gone way up in the U.S., we can still- and wages for a lot of factory workers are way higher than minimum wage, of course. Why it's still affordable, because you're creating so much valuable product with so little relative manpower. So I have a question for you. And I think as you continue to innovate, and Foxconn is looking into robotics and stuff, it's a perfect fit for a technology company to say, we're going to maximize all this manpower. Yes, we're going to hire a lot in the U.S., but we're also going to be looking at a lot of technology to make those- to spread those HR dollars- I have a question for you. Into a lot of production. It's a very serious question. I just asked Josh a question. But I think this is the flip side of the question. This is a lot of buildup to this question. No, it is. Why is this Apple's responsibility, not a collective action? I just said why it's Apple's responsibility. No, no, it's not. No, no, no, that doesn't make any sense. No, it does. If you position yourself as a leader, you better be ready to lead. No, no, no, no. Why isn't this our government's responsibility? Why isn't this our collective responsibility? It is our collective responsibility. Because the way we collectively express ourselves is not by paying money in the market. It's by the actions of our government, which purports to represent us. I agree with Nilay. I don't know what you just said. But the government is there. I mean, the whole point of the government is to represent- But I also express myself- To actually represent the will of the people. Let me hear Paul's answer to this. I mean, I think what you're asking is- I don't only express myself through the government. But the government is there to solve collective actions problems that the market can't. So here's the thing. And the market clearly has not solved this problem for you. The market is exacerbating this problem. This is not at all Apple's problem. That's right. Under the market conditions that we've created, this is the most optimal solution for that. Just a sec. It's not at all Apple's problem. I think it would be cool if they solved it. Apple had no- But why shouldn't we directly solve it? Because it is a problem for Americans. Well, hold on. So hold on a second. It is an American problem. And there is an onus on our government to try to- It's an ethical problem. It's like- No, but it's a real problem. People are poor. They're not eating. It's not an ethical problem. Right. You know, there's actually- That's a- I don't have McDonald's- Hold on. So can I actually say- Hold on. That is true. I moderated the panel at Sundance. And there was a woman named Rachel Grady on the panel who made a movie called Detropia, which is about Detroit, how it's basically been destroyed by globalization and shipping jobs overseas, and that it is like kind of apocalyptic there. And if you see photos of Detroit and certain parts of Detroit, it does kind of look like the end times. Like it looks like America at the end times. And I do think that you're right in saying that it is an American problem and it's a global problem, and it is there is a responsibility that our leaders have, which is what's so crazy about this situation, is that you've got Obama. Like I said, Obama on the one hand is preaching about how we need to bring jobs back to America from China. He says specifically like from overseas, right? And then he's got Steve Jobs' wife sitting there, again, who it's clear Apple doesn't want to bring those jobs back because we know that they can. But it's going to- Wait. No. But I'm saying, and this is- It's not in their best interest to do it. That's right. But they can in their head. And it wasn't in the car company's best interest. You asked me to- And it wasn't the steel company's or the car company's best interest to keep their jobs here. But hold on. We gave the car companies lots of incentives to bring those jobs back. They came racing back. Right. And we need- well, then they're not all back. They're not in Detroit. And the damage is still done. I bet Apple could cut a sweet deal with the state of California to create a factory in California. I don't think there's- I bet they could a sweet hard deal. They would cut a sweet deal with- If they couldn't, they'd do it in some other nearby state. They would cut a sweet deal with Wyoming. Sure. Or whatever. But here's the question. What is the incentive to Apple to act? Why would they- because somebody from the government may say, Apple, we want you to bring jobs back here. And they'll just say, listen, we can't create our products here in America. I just think there is always room for innovation. It's not a slam dunk for Apple to make a phone. They could lose billions of dollars deciding to make a device that it has no real experience in. That's right. Reach on. And they pulled it off. And I think if you applied a serious amount of long-term thinking, crazy investment, and innovation, I think you could win. You could beat the system. Win at building stuff. No, no, no. Can I just defend- Also a bit of lobbying. Can I just defend- No, you're not going to- we live in the most complicated economic system ever devised. You're not going to beat the system by some really nice long-term thinking. You have to actually engage the mechanics of the government. Wait, wait, wait. Just a sec. If somebody figures out a way to produce a phone- That's magical thinking. Wait, wait, wait. I didn't say anything that was magical yet. That's magical. They're just going to figure it out. I feel like you're being a little hard on Paul. I'm being hard because it's hard. I don't know. I'm saying the same thing. Be hard on me. I was hard on you. If somebody figured out a way- I didn't notice. I know. You never did. American Apparel made shirts in the U.S. and they did a pretty good job. They sold it with- I mean, admittedly, with a lot of porn that helped. Hey, you know what? Then let Apple sell it with porn. Okay. That was a joke. That's a good point. That's a good point. They found a way to sell it for more money using porn. If it's physically possible to produce a phone in the U.S. Which it is, for sure. And if you can produce that phone in the U.S. for a low enough cost and then charge enough of a premium on it that it balances out, then that is a thing. And I don't know how to do that and maybe it can't be done. That's where I think the magical thinking comes in. But it isn't magical. Hold on. But I'm just saying if someone- I'm describing like if you could create a unicorn by eating a couple of different animals together. But I think the numbers involved make that a unicorn. That's all I'm saying. Well, but I think that it's only a unicorn because somebody isn't dreaming hard enough. Okay? Yes. That'll be an offense. Yes and yes and yes. No, but I'm sorry. No, no, but this goes back to my core of my point, which is this, which is Apple, think different. You know what? No. You know what? Think different. You're at the intersection of- and this is why people are putting it on Apple and this is why Apple should feel the pressure. They asked to be the person that bucks convention that will go against the system that will say like, you don't think we can do it? We can't make a phone? Do you want me to bring this all the way back around? We can't make a virtual keyboard that you'll want to use instead of a real keyboard? Well, guess what? We're going to do it. And if they're that company, if they think different- But those problems- Those are the company that came out with a $600 phone. Right. And sold it- They sold a lot of $600 phones. But those problems are like, can I make a virtual key? That is a problem that you can just think harder about. Those are Apple problems. But you can solve that problem. Yeah, but are you saying- Pure thought and execution solves that problem. Are you saying that you don't think Apple could do a better job of bringing some of these jobs back to America? Can I bring it all the way back around to what we talked about last week in DRM and Hollywood and ACTA and all this other stuff that's going on? Yes. This is- Apple could do all this stuff and HP could help them and Microsoft could help them. The whole industry banded together on it? But they do not engage the government. Whatever happened- Silicon Valley is a frat house. That's how I think about it. Well, this is a good point. They believe they are apart and separate from the law. Well, but you know what? And I agree with you. This is a point that you made and I agree with, which is why isn't Google lobbying about SOPA and why isn't Microsoft lobbying about SOPA? And frankly, why aren't they lobbying about- But here's the thing. We all know everything right now is designed that's good for Apple. They're making a lot of money, they have cheap labor and nobody tells them to stop. They're not going to lobby against themselves. But they could lobby for- I'm saying they can't just- Apple can't just build the factory in Wyoming and be like, we're going to make it better because we thought about it. No, they can do that. Just the way they built a phone that cost $600 that was going to be better than anybody else's phone. Those aren't the same things. They are exactly the same things. Building a factory in Wyoming that pays people a fair wage in America and produces a product that's affordable to Americans. So I'm a- Is not the same as building a $600 phone. So I think that I have a tendency to think about things as like never impossible. I think I have a tendency to- The only place we disagree is that those two things are the same. Impossible is nothing. I mean the same- what do you mean the same? The question is not like- does the problem require- The $600 phone- No, no, the question is not does the problem require the same kind of method to get the job done? No, of course it doesn't. But can the job get done if somebody puts their mind to it? Definitely. Like if you tell me that you don't think there's a way they can make it happen- Right, but those methods are deeply, deeply important. A $600 phone- Of course they're important. I'm just saying I don't have the method. It's true. But you can't say- I won't give you the breakdown of the method. No, but this is like- I didn't think Hyundai- it was at all possible for Hyundai to make really cheap cars in the U.S. until then all of a sudden they started making really cheap cars in the U.S. He's got you there. He's got you there, Patel. No, but they did it because of like systematic and formalized incentive programs by the government. Because they lobby the government to come here and bring jobs. Can I just say who cares where it starts? Can I just say like- I don't care if they lobby- Did Hyundai want to create jobs in the U.S. or did they want to be a more profitable company? Both. Both. Or also did they- They saw the opportunity to make cars in America as a road to more profit. Right. And that's all you have to do. You have to provide that incentive. This is Mercedes. Apple will never- this is what I'm saying. They're not going to lobby against themselves. Right. Apple is never going to say create this incentive for us. That's what I'm saying. If they- and they obviously- But that is- But just to say they obviously haven't figured it out yet. No. But we're- They can't figure it out because it is not the same as we're going to build a $600- Wait, wait, wait. I don't think this is about them making more money. Can I just say something? But were they to decide that, you know what, I think we can make more money if we did this and this and this. Okay. We can make more money and we got these sweetheart deals from the government and all of this. It's like, okay, we think that- A lot of hypotheticals right now. No, no, no. But I think- can I just say something? No, but- This isn't about making more money. But Hyundai did the same thing. They said, you know what, we think we can make more money if we did this. So let's lobby the government and get this sweetheart deal and then start making cars here. Now we can have awesome ads about how we make all our cars in the U.S. I would just like to say something. Sure. I don't think at the end of the day this is an actual question about making more money because I think what the truth is is that you're going to make the most money by exploiting people and you're going to make the most money by doing the worst things. Okay. Like typically the two don't go hand in hand where you're like really great and kind and giving and you're spreading the wealth around and you also have to be making the highest margin or sorry, the lowest, would it be the highest margin, right? It's funny. But the point is, yes, I was looking at you for a second, guys. But the point is this, it's not going to be, as long as a communo-fascist, whatever you call it, as long as the control in China is like a communist control and a fascist control that is in the service of the government and industry there, they're always going to be able to offer a better deal to Apple than what we're going to be able to offer. I don't think that's necessarily true. No, I think it is. I think it's true. Wait, you don't think that's necessarily true? No, I don't. Why are you hating on me for thinking that we could possibly make stuff? No, that's magical thinking that you don't think that they're happy to exploit more than they would be to lose. No, look, these equations aren't one to one. It's not like more exploitation means more profit, so we're going here. I mean, there's a social cost to doing this business and we have to, A, increase the social cost of exploiting Chinese labor, right, that's tremendously important and then we are- You say increase it? You mean like trade embargo? No, no, no, like we have to build, like, and I hate the phrase build awareness, but we have to increase the social cost of doing business in a bad way. We have to, there need to be more articles like the New York Times one is what you're saying. Right, that's our responsibility. Yes. And then our broader responsibility- Maybe Obama really wrote the New York Times article. Maybe. And then our broader responsibility has to be- Obama's talking out of both sides of his mouth. That's the problem. He's kind of, that's part of the problem is that you've got Obama, like I said, saying two different things. He's like, we love Apple, bring jobs back to America, but like those two things are completely incompatible as of right now. And what you were saying about like- Sorry, do you want to finish your point? No, come on. But the second thing is we have to recognize the only mechanism to actually bring these jobs back to America is changing the economics of bringing the jobs back to America. Occupy Wall Street. Occupy. And that means that the government has to take direct action at every level, local, state, federal, to change the economics of manufacturing in America. Occupy one infinite loop. If you don't do that, Apple's never going to go change it themselves. They will never do it. They have no incentive to do it. Right. And they can't do it. Here's an incentive for Apple to do it. They actually give a shit. That's the incentive. No, it's the incentive for any company to do anything that will be hard. Okay. Like if Apple cares about jobs, and by the way, this isn't about Apple. It's about any company that does this. If you care about jobs in America and you care about the human rights of the people in your factories in China, you'll do something about it. And it's a question of whether you care or not. And that's all there is to it. If you care more about the bottom line than you do about people, then you'll keep doing what you're doing. If you care more about people than the bottom line, then you'll fix it. It's that simple. What were you saying? You were saying before about how people don't get ahead by doing the right thing. You get ahead by doing the worst, most cynical thing. Yeah, basically. I think the really interesting thing about Apple is like Apple is this two-sided company where hiring-wise, and talent-wise, they're an HR company is what Steve Jobs would say. And marketing and the spirit of the company. But how Apple is innovated is by paying a lot of money to the most innovative people to come innovate for it, and spending billions of dollars on R&D at times when other companies weren't spending as much on R&D. So on that side, that is awesome. I'm sure Obama loves that. But the other side of Apple's success is that it's the best, most ruthless supply chain company in the world. Right. And the guy who now is the CEO is the guy who created those ruthless supply chains. And look, I'm not knocking them for becoming – He's a huge talent who got paid a lot of money as a person in the U.S. But what happens is – To figure out a way to milk a supply chain in an amazing way that you have to do credit for. Right. But what happens is you reach a point, there's a plateau where it doesn't matter. You could pay more or less and you get the same work. If you pay less and send the jobs to China, the work will be the same as if you pay more and have the job. In fact, in some ways, they might argue, and it may be true, that at least in some ways the work will be better because there's more force put on laborers there. There's more of an incentive for them. They have more to gain because, like you said, the job situation is not great to begin with. So these factories are in some ways the greatest, the best thing you could get. A factory job is, I think, probably one of the better jobs you can get in China, right? Right. And by the way, I haven't been there. I don't know – these factories might be wonderful places to work, and I'm just going off of what the New York Times says and what the NPR report says and various reports from all over the world that say the human rights in China are really bad. But that could just be speculation from people. But what I am saying is this – and I just want to stress that this isn't about – It isn't really – Apple is just the lightning rod because they are just succeeding so much right now and they're winning so hard that it's easy to use them as the example. But I think this goes to everybody in the industry. We need to change it. The industry needs to change it. It has to come from somewhere. And you're right. It is on – It's on us. Pressure should be exerted. It's on us in the press, I think, first off, to talk about it, and we're doing that. I mean, we need to do more of it. At least another hour. At least another straight hour of this. It's on the government, unfortunately, to start to think about ways that they can address the issues, right? I don't think our government is going to address human rights issues in China. I mean, they don't have the power. They don't have the say. But what I will say is this. If Apple and our government decided, or at least agreed, that two things were happening, that we needed more jobs in America and that the human rights in China were worse, and they made moves like, hey, we're bringing some of our workforce. We're going to bring some of that workforce back to America because, one, we need the jobs here, and, two, we think you guys could do a better job with human rights, I do think that would have an impact. I do think if Apple – if Apple tomorrow said, hey, China, guess what, we're no longer using you guys for anything. We're going to bring all of our labor back here. We don't even care what expense because we've got $93 billion in the bank. Not that they could do that, but this is kind of a fantasy scenario. But you could be sure that China would say, we'll do whatever you want to make these factories better. I do – as hurtful as his tone has been with me – Has it been hurtful? I think you have been a little mean to Paul. I think you're dismissive of my intellect, which is – It's just massive, massive. Vast intellect. Vast and massive intellect. I don't think I'm – I'm just asking you the questions, man. No, you harsher on his malady. I think the only reason Apple would ever do this, and I think the only reason – and even if Apple was so idealistic that they did it, the only reason that everybody would do this, that it would actually be a viable thing, is if it was a viable thing. If the economic – They wouldn't be like, well, we may fail. We may go out of business, but we've got to try. That's the thing. It can't be like, you know what, this is really going to damage our bottom line, but we're going to do it anyway because it's the right thing to do. I don't think that's going to happen. I think if you look at all this free-range stickers on chickens in the grocery store, that's because they make some more money. Well, they charge – There's like five dudes who are doing it morally. That's a great example. And the rest of the people are doing it – Can I just say – And so – but I think – so I think you're right that unless someone had an insane magical idea to figure out how to do it profitably, we would need a different economic climate in the country right now – Well, can I just – With different policy from the government to make this more economically viable. But you are right. That's a great analogy is the free-range chicken. Because here's the deal, for the farmer who raises the free-range chicken, however it works out, they charge more for it. Somehow they're making money on it. Right? But they're making money on it because they charge the higher price because there's a market for people who think that's a better product. Yeah. The free-range chicken is a $600 iPhone. And the – That's more of a corollary. But is it the $65 more iPhone? Right. Is it the iPhone that's on subsidy for $265 instead of $200? $65 more, I think that would be huge. I think that is a question that's much harder to answer. Well, I think if you knew that your neighbors – Especially when you have kids getting their iPhone for Christmas, it's like, you know what, it's great that my – you know what, my dad hates Chinese people because he didn't give me the more expensive iPhone that's made in the U.S. That's a weird scenario you just created. Wow. You have a – My dad hates Chinese people. You are the strangest 14-year-old girl in the world. No, no, no. But wait, look, but there is – but it is like worth saying, you know, if your neighbors and your family, if they're the people making the more expensive phone, you're like, well, I could spend the $65 on it. I just think, look, it's like we either want to embrace – I mean, how many vegetarian 14-year-old girls are there? A lot. There's a lot. A lot. And they want the $65 more iPhone. We either want to – I mean, in this country, we either want to embrace – we want to – I mean, we have to admit, like, reality. I was just laughing at the idea of the $60 or $14. If you were likely to sell a $299 free-range iPhone, then you'd be likely to sell the $299 32-gig instead of the 16-gig. Like people would rather spend the extra $100 on morality than music storage. I do think, like, we have to decide if we're going to be – if we want to – I think that is your future, Paul. I think – can I just say – I think that we've been living – No, my future is so much better than that. I think that – I just think that – You can write that future. I will. I think at the core of this – and I've talked about this before, and we don't want to – I don't want to continue talking about it for too much longer. Really? But I think at the core of this – We're about out of daylight. We should just keep going. Come back all the way. We have to admit as a society, and particularly in America, that we live – we live – we're living in a – we're living beyond our means in a lot of ways, okay? And we've talked about this before where it's like, you know, nobody wants to pay for the $600 iPhone. They don't want to pay what it actually costs to make it, so they're subsidizing. So you end up in these crappy carrier contracts because they're subsidizing because you want to have the $600 phone, but you don't want to pay the $600 price, and so you pay some other way. You get, you know, the subsidized device. I think that we have to, like – part of this is Americans and everybody in the world growing up and saying it was nice while it lasted, but if we keep doing it this way, we're basically going to destroy the world. I mean, because that is what's going to happen. Like, you're going to create tremendous economic inequality, and that's going to lead to basically violent revolution. Like, that's where it heads. Or like a Blade Runner scenario where we all have to migrate to Mars because of that. No, but China and countries like that, I mean, the places where they're mining this stuff, I mean, they are – that's the beginning of it, you know? And places like Detroit are the beginning of our cities being destroyed by things like globalization and people not being able to sustain their lives there. I mean, these things are the seeds of the dystopic – by the way, this panel was all about dystopia and the future. Yeah, that's all in line. The synthetic animals. No, but Edward James Olmos was – I asked everybody on the panel, and he was on the panel. But everybody – I asked – I was like, what do you think – like, is it going to get worse before it gets better? And everybody was like – Did you get to touch him? I did. He was really nice, by the way. And it was like filmmakers and Bill Buxton from Microsoft Research and Paul Yarin from Oblong Industries and Mr. Saeed, who's a filmmaker, and Rachel Grady, who's a filmmaker, and Edward James Olmos. But everybody down the line, very different walks. And I think the kind of gist was, yeah, this is what's going to happen. It's going to be like the Rodney King riots times 10. That's what happens. If we don't start to admit that we are doing things that are destructive, even if they feel good at this moment, they're destructive overall. And I think that continuing these conditions in China, continuing not focusing on how we get jobs, and also telling people, hey, you can have whatever you want for whatever price, and you can keep doing that forever, we have to be realistic. I think it's time for us to grow up a little bit as a society. And it's hard for me to say this since we cover gadgets. Because that's what we do. We cover stuff where it's subsidized and it should be a lot more expensive and it's made in China and it's horrible, and we're battling this. Like, I am at least battling – And then we complain about the price. And then we – I don't actually – I don't have complaints about prices. I'm not like, how dare they charge $200 for this. But I'm like, you know, basically a one-percenter. I'm not the 99%. It's true. You were just hanging out with a bunch of Hollywood bigwigs. I was at Sundance with Edward James Olmos. What's more 1% than that? No, but like, it is – Josh, do you ever think that you're the problem? I am the problem. Give me $65. Take me out. Can I have $65? Yeah. I was made in America. I can't put it – If you're going to put it towards an American-made iPhone, I'll happily give you $65. I'll make something else. Here's my promise to the world. If Apple brings – if Apple brings a phone and iPad – Can you slowly zoom in on Josh? If they bring – if they bring their production back to America, I will give every American $65 towards a new iPhone. You have my promise. Apple, I'm looking at you. Josh has been stashing away a lot of money. Bring the jobs. Josh has roughly $95 billion in the bank. I want Warren Buffett and Bill Gates to join me in pledging $65 to every American if Apple will bring jobs back to America. Wow. To make – but iPhone-producing jobs. He can't be like, don't bring back – you're making like – You want Bill Gates – You're making like the rubber knobs that sit on the bottom of the – You want Bill Gates to subsidize every iPhone for $65. It's a big business. Rubber knobs. No, rubber nubs. Rubber nubs. They're like the thing on the bottom of the – like, hey, we're making those rubber pads that make – So your computer doesn't sit on an actual desktop. No. Anyhow, are we wrapping up? We're wrapping up, right? Don't tell me we have more topics. No, we can make 50 more. I'm going to kill you. No. I'm dry. Here, just have mine because I can't really drink it. I have to go to dinner and it's a little bit salty for my taste. Mine doesn't have alcohol in it, but you can have it. Here, look, look. You can switch – Nila, you can switch straws here so you don't have to worry about my hideous mouth diseases. What do you mean? I know how straws work. Don't say hideous mouth diseases. I'm joking. I'm fine. It's cleared up. It's totally fine. Paul, I respect your intellect. I'm sorry I was hard on you. Yeah, thank you for apologizing. I'm sorry. You owe him an apology. I will hug it out. I'm sorry. Hug it out right now. Come here. That's a hug? Come on. Paul's not into this hug at all. Paul's going – it's a weird – all right, just – well, that's our – that's our Vergecast. Oh, I have one other thing. Let's talk about policy. I have one other thing I want to talk about. Remember every week when we say we're not going to do it? Am I still zoomed in on, by the way? Because if I am, I'm going to be really pissed. We have our – I want to announce our next guest for On the Verge, February 10th, Jimmy Fallon. Nice. Coming on the Verge. Nice. Very excited. He said – so we talked last time I was on the show and I was like, you got to come do it. He actually mentioned it on the air and then I was like, you got to come do it, and he did it. He did the Unguided Show before with us and he's going to come back and do this. And we actually are lining up some really cool guests for March as well, and I don't want to talk about it yet, but it may be – Jimmy Fallon. Jimmy Fallon. Jimmy Fallon. Jimmy Fallon. Jimmy Fallon. Jimmy Fallon. Jimmy Fallon. Jimmy Fallon. Jimmy Fallon. Jimmy Fallon. Jimmy Fallon. We're not really that original. Jimmy Fallon will be giving everybody $65. It's cool. We're going to have Crate and musical guests. George and Jonathan. Are they confirmed? They are – we're like, yes. Basically confirmed. These guys, George and Jonathan, that are insane. Maybe we'll post – whoa, somebody's getting an iPhone message from Apple. Okay, we'll do it. Get your $65 ready. It's cool. The next show is going to be cool. It's very exciting. Sponsored by Sony. That's very exciting. Yeah, Sony sponsoring again, which is nice of them to do that. We love Sony's cash. And they're hit recording artists like Kesha. I don't know if she's on Sony. She's on Sony. Is she on Sony? Like Kesha. Adele, right? Kelly Pickler. Kelly Pickler. Adele. Yeah. Many – the list goes on and on. There was another one. No, not Adele. Sorry. I don't know who – Not Adele? Rush? Are you sure? Rush? Rush is a Sony – really? I don't think they want to – Stop naming bands you like and hoping they're on Sony. I don't think Sony's trying to talk about Rush being one of their artists. I'll be honest with you. Anyhow, that's our Vergecast. If you want to get in touch with us, you can leave us a – you can send us an email at podcast.theverge.com. You can leave a comment on the post when it goes up, or of course you can find us on Twitter. The Verge is at Verge. I'm Joshua Topolski. Neelay is Reckless. Paul is Future Paul. And we will be back next week on Thursday, right? Adele is definitely on. Adele is on Sony. We'll be back on Thursday, regular podcast time, right? Yeah. I'm on vacation, actually. Rush is on Anthem Records. Which is a subsidiary of Sony. I have no idea. Okay, that's our show. Thanks for watching and listening, and we'll be back next week with more delicious and non-political conversation. Rock and roll. The defeated rock and roll. The defeated rock and roll.