 Hey and welcome to the verge cast for the week of December 12th 2011. I'm Josh Topolsky. I'm Paul Miller I'm Neil I Patel and we're back Paul. You looked angry while I was doing that intro now. I was thinking of a joke Can you share with us? To make you angry. It's not great. Let's hear it. It's like 50% I was gonna say it's like it's day 001 for the working man. That's right. They I Mean, I'm the only one that they can stay 1.0 for the working man. Yeah I don't know what any that means but we are back Yeah, we're here to talk about technology consumer electronics and the culture of technology and consumer electronics And then Josh and I are gonna go mine coal. We're going to work. We're going to go in our working-class literally blue-collar shirt and work and Work, I'm taking for our further put food on our table just like in Zuma Bentley Just like do you say just like in Zoolander just like in Zoolander? Any house I put food on the table or Zoolander, you know, we said He said Zoolander, so anyhow, we're back there's it's been a pretty you know interesting week in technology not crazy Not like one thing happened. It wasn't like the end of August or happened today Yeah, Neil I told in the if you can't if you're listening to this or if you yeah Just heard about this from somebody Neil. I was just holding up the galaxy Nexus for Verizon Yeah, which everybody's real excited about and there are so many of them I just everybody went I have to say like I I I'm I'm it's not really that much You have one. Yeah, it's right here right here You're a fight with these I got the extent I know you the extended battery I but I was gonna say like it it's this little bit extra thickness doesn't bother me at all Like I don't think it's that big of a deal. I think it's making a big deal out of it I'm making a big deal out of it. Well, you have the extended battery on it Yeah, but even without it, it's like that, you know the hump like the classic Samsung kind of like booty humps So it's just it's round it. No, I like it. I like the way there's no Ridge at all I liked it's a little more flat actually. Yeah, it's less of a teardrop shape now And as we know it's more of a tear drop every teardrop. It's a waterfall think about it It's funny that this is coming out like the same day these numbers are out that iOS is kind of excuse me Paul There's a drag race going on It's kind of stalling. Yeah, all Android continues to climb. I don't know I saw that's I mean, there's no there are only so many there only so many people who can really appreciate The craftsmanship of iOS No, but let's so let's talk about this a bunch of people got Galaxy nex I on Verizon this morning. I mean a bunch of people in our office I think a bunch of people we saw some pictures of lines. No, we thought we I mean I don't know. I don't know if those lines are real or not But they did there were pictures of some kind of line, you know It's funny is that those lines like they're either real because there's an enormous volume people Wanting to buy it or they're real because it's hard to buy things at a Verizon store I mean, it is the holiday shopping season So I don't want to ascribe all that line just to the presence of the galaxy people lined up for the pre It's not unrealistic to line up for another important guy. I mean people did line up for the pretty people forget that I Think a lot of people forget that I think Definitely forgot that hey women. Well, I she highlighted it and then ripped that piece of the page She and then she folded it real methodic Yeah Real methodic like she took her time just folded that right and then ripped it and then put it aside like lick the edge Just she put it in a clean. She put a tray of unimportant factoids About the about web OS. How are we talking about? I don't know either Anyhow, so there's not really anything to say it's on it's it's on Verizon It has worse battery life than the get GSM bird. It's weird. It has a different battery entirely So we were looking at the regular it's a different size battery. Yeah, but it's like it's like 18 It's like what the inside is now. It's like six eighteen fifty and the GSM is seventeen whatever numbers that are on the back of it are rated differently. So the GS is like six point four It's six point eight. I don't know but it's weird because it's like they actually did some internal redesigning there when I When I went to Google and they were playing around with like the early versions It was clear that that a couple of people had they were like trying to swap backs and they couldn't because they were different You know devices. How's that first door? I think about right then to a novella It's called at Google. Yeah, swapping the back swapping the back That's chapter one swapping the backs is chapter one of my swap my back. I'll swap yours I don't that doesn't happen in my book my novella. It's not really a book. Yeah Something is short. It's short. I don't know. What is the official? Is there a limit? Is there anything over 150 is that is that what it is over 150? Maybe somebody in the I'm not even in the ustream room. Is that cool or uncool? Anyhow, so there's nothing to say about it. It's out and people some people are happy some people aren't And I don't know any of the people who are happy Like I'm not one of those people You guys are now not even talking I know we have a weird sample but I feel like a lot of people are getting in the Nexus right now like a lot of people have been like saving saving up not like Literally, maybe literally but also figuratively for this phone I just think it's a I just think it's it's like it's a thing that a lot of people at least in our world have been Waiting for which is a pure Google experience That you know is as good as any, you know, I mean I think as good as any Other phone in the market, you know, I mean it's at the top tier of phones, you know high-resolution screen, you know decent camera sometimes You know, it's fast. It's got ICS on it I just it's like a pure Google phone with ICS with 4g on Verizon I feel like that's kind of like the dream combo for a lot of people they've been waiting for well I mean We've been reviewing phones left and right lately and the end of all of our reviews has been Don't buy this wait for the galaxy Nexus because what other fun would you buy? We knew we knew was coming for a while and I think that sorry I'm just logging in I mean I'm sure with these people I mean ever since honeycomb came out 2.3 felt a little old so it's been a it's been a long way It's it's it's this Android hasn't really fundamentally changed in a long time and is this cold? Oh, that's awesome It's kind of it's cold ish Um, yeah this podcast brought to you by diet coke Taste the fever Yeah, the Christmas coke is a silver can yeah, it's very confused The diet coke is a silver. It's very good. Guess who had a silver can first the diet coke So you're saying Christmas coke? Yeah, get lost I have accidentally drank a Christmas coke and that almost I think actually everybody in this office has done that recently I think it's a real problem that coke needs to address right now coke coke fragmentation So let's talk about Android 4.0 so this is out I think a lot of people are buying them Yeah, I think it's probably the only Pretty much it's the only phone you should buy like you should buy this for an iPhone 4s Or a Windows phone if you're into that, but I would still I would wait on the Lumia 800 if I was buying a Windows phone So these are if you're gonna go into a store and buy a phone. I'd buy one one of these two, right? Yeah Sure, what's cool though is that we're already seeing other manufacturers I think they're realizing what they have to do to get interest in their devices again. So Sony Ericsson's already released What they're calling preview ROMs of ice cream sandwich for their phones So for the newer ones So through the Xperia ray the Xperia arc s and the neo v all terrible names actually But they're like they're lightly skinned I would I would call it but they're already out there like they know that to get the interest in the phones And then we already saw a leak of and this is far more disappointing Samsung's Android 4.0 build with touchwiz on top of it. I mean you knew it was gonna happen Yeah, but that's like doesn't matter if you get the galaxy nexus. Yeah What what's matter? It's just so disappointed. They didn't tone it down. They didn't do it there So what did you think was gonna happen? They would know they have to keep differentiating for the customer But how can they not see how badly people want this doesn't look a little weird just because even the whole Color scheme of touchwiz seems to clash a little bit with the color It's not a final ROM so we don't know exactly what what I would what I would love is to see What if everybody just started releasing their same phones? But with this with stock software like would there be a dramatic change in the way sales work for these devices? I don't think I'm saying I don't think they sell them on on check out the cool interface I don't I really don't I think they're like look how thin the razor is right? I think they people would buy the razor if it had stock ICS on it What I think about it had a you know, whatever those PCs like Windows Windows comes like mildly Customized like they load a bunch of apps. It is odd They compete on a heart. Why don't they just take a cue from Windows computers? 92% of the market so no problem there HP they load a bunch of crap Lenovo Acer still making money Dell still making money I'll sell different types of PCs all run exactly the same essentially the same software with a greater lesser degree of crap I think that you can get rid of that's the key thing if you really want to Some clean windows is not allowed to be modified in any way. In fact, like just like windows even More intense with Windows 8. Well, they wait. What is these secure something that there's actually some pushback from manufacturers? But the essential Windows 7 cannot be altered at all by the man. I mean they went they went they went down this road with Windows Mobile and then completely flip the script for Windows Phone 7, right? Right, but yeah, but the thing is that Windows Which is working so well for them. Yeah, but that's the thing It's like Windows which is the successful model has like very happily inhabited the middle ground for a long time Which is the middle like it has three windows it looks and feels and works like Windows Manufacturers can put all the stuff on top of it But if you don't want it, you can delete it or you can just go buy Windows and install it over the top I think the problem so internally obviously they love the word differentiation and externally You know if you sell 30 million phones in a year, you did really well and why would you listen to anybody? I mean a very small minority the voice right voices of the industry exactly I mean or the voices of your customers who are finally going and lining up for this thing at Verizon stores That's true. Maybe this will make make them take no how amazing how amazing would be if the only things you had to worry about for Android fragmentation were CPU and screen size. I mean it would be yeah resolution, but it could be That stuff could be dealt with so easily if you could just get aligned on Versions and those underlying OS. I gotta say I was thinking about this today I Siri Is serious no God iOS fragmentation sure for no reason for like for literally no for the reason Oh all the processing is happening and for the purpose. I think I think I know why I think I Think it's because they know it's not very good. And I think what we have learned over time is that it it's like, okay I mean, why not put Siri on the iPad 2 which is the same CPU and differentiation designed to sell a phone and more advertising it right? That's right It should be on the eyes. It working. I don't know should be on both iPads and it should be on the iPhone 4 we haven't We haven't seen Numbers yet have we for iPhone for us? No, we will soon right? I'm sure they're great. I'm sure they're strong Well, actually, no, we won't see him until End of Q1 which is the end of January. I'm sure the numbers will be fine I mean Apple's making plenty of money. They're selling plenty of phones, you know I just think that I mean, I think that you know, you see what what Microsoft is trying to do And I just you know, we talk about this all the time. It's so boring. Yeah, I just wish I will say this I think that like, you know these quit, you know We're coming off of I think everybody knows who listens to this is aware of the fact that I just wrote something It's like kind of a on the topic of of you know, Android versus iPhone though It's not really about Android versus iPhone though. I do think if you were to see if you to tomorrow suddenly the Fragmentation issue didn't exist and the app Selection were identical. I think these arguments would become a lot less effective I think it'd be it'd be much harder to say like I'm this thing or I'm that thing like I just think it wouldn't matter You wouldn't be able to the differences wouldn't be the list wouldn't be so long I like the thought exercise that Gruber had on on the show which is like if you just you know took a time machine to write and are Backwards in time and presented somebody with an Android phone an iPhone and a Windows phone Yeah, they might not know who's the market leader, right? Well, I think right of course I mean, there's a lot of craft both in thought and in actual, you know, right product for all of those And I think there's also just a lot of general hold back I mean, I don't think the way we buy and sell phones I think the galaxy next is actually the perfect example of this tyranny the way we buy and sell phones like in as an Industry in America is like broken. It's designed. Oh, really? We're going down the broken roads, bro Are you sure you want to say that? I don't say I don't want you to use the term broken unless you're fully committed 100% to to to couching that as a I think it's broken too. Yeah. No, I think it hurts the working man You know as a Mercedes driver in a fancy shirt Yeah, exactly. Look at you. I am the 1% and you really I agree with you in this limited. We need real reform Why do we so why is it we need to be and that we've talked about this before in regards like Mac versus PC or Android Versus iPhone but 99 the 99 versus 1% is the same thing and Republican versus Democrat. We're so human beings are so dumb We just have this desired like together We just so much more just so important for us to have this I'm this thing or I'm that thing like you can't it's like And that that was actually in the thing that I wrote today Entitled horseshit in case you're wondering You know it was it was it was about like shades of gray and seeing the shades of gray in this stuff and I Wish I just wish we could get away from this this line of thinking where it's like I'm this thing or I'm that thing Cuz I don't think it's I don't think it's healthy if we were all together as one world We could start the Federation and then send out the star I mean look just look at look at the look at the political the socio-political landscape of Star Trek Everything's free. Everybody is together as you know humans are together Yeah, other races are together, but you know, they're just chillin listen other races of a classical music They're just listening classical music and enjoying the finer things in life and and you know reciting poetry and flying around the galaxy Ask asking machines to create great drinks for them and thinking about it thinking about the important things, you know What's out there? Yeah, who haven't we met yet? And will they try to kill are they cool? What is a person? What's up? What you know is it is it only has tentacles and one eye? Is it a person they don't actually ever have that's the thing about Star Trek I love you know, they actually explained why on Star Trek all they couldn't afford No, why all the in the new in the next generation? They had this like crazy episode where they went back to like that where the where like the entire universe came from and somehow discovered that There's like a reason why everybody's kind of a humanoid Like even though they might have like a crazy head It's a pretty is a pretty bad explanation. I think overall for I mean, I think they should have been like look we ran out of money We wanted to do like a technical monster, but we couldn't afford it. So Anyhow, you're did you see you're googling that? Yeah, why do you on your under's I bored? I'm bored. I like that. We're just riffing by the way. I don't think we're talking about anything right now We were talking about Windows phone and Andy Lee's is that one is a good transition Others iglers are not out from my stuff out from being in charge of Windows phone Yeah, Chris Ziegler had a great one of our great editors who focuses on mobile stuff Had a little bit of a scoop yesterday, which was Andy Lee's is Well, we knew that Andy Lee's was moving from Windows phone, but we kind of and they couched it as a promotion Yeah, but it wasn't it turns out it wasn't really a promotion it was it was like a demotion a demotion and And you know It's an interesting article because it shows some of what's going on inside of the Windows phone division right now And I think what's most interesting is that You know my understanding, you know Chris has sources I spoke to some sources and this concept of him being benched is definitely true and I think that for Andy Lee's The next step is not and I think it really is like he's not gonna be at Microsoft anymore. And that's my Chris was saying executives like this rarely just disappear now they go but they're gonna be putting They're gonna go down like a water slide into like some portal and then like they're gonna farm and upstate New York, right? Yeah That's right. They're gonna be Chris said executives normally don't take a demotion if they're gonna get demoted They'll well, they don't I think they don't cut like I don't think I think it's known as I think people know It's a demotion, but I think that you know, Andy Lee is like no no, no, it's you're doing great You just think your energy would be better spent on synergize Windows 8 and Windows What which is to be honest something that they you know would be great for Microsoft Well, they need to do it, but they are at least they are on on that path already, which is good I wonder so Chris is saying that well his big he got into big trouble for his market share predictions. Yeah, it's externally and you know incredibly off and I Wonder how much you can parallel Windows Phone with something like the Xbox which was so expensive for Microsoft and lost them so much money in the first generation and Really just had a halo but halo was awesome. And then they came along with the Xbox 360 I don't know But you know, I think the thing about the 360 was was they built the Xbox on one vision and they actually did gain traction With a low and actually Xbox Live was a huge success. I'd have a halo right? Well, you gotta have a halo funny They also had a huge differentiator with live so that they had a killer app and they had a killer service Right and but then they had the vision for the 360 which I think was all Jay Allard saying we build an integrated thing We'll build it around live Yeah, we'll do this crazy interface that makes it more of an OS like all the stuff that they did with the 360 I mean what they've done with the 360 is is brilliant, even if their origin Maybe they veered from their original strategy a little bit and I think they probably did I think they saw it more as a companion To like a media center set up that as its own right connect to your PC right stream stuff Oh, and I think they've made the same They're making the same transition in the Xbox as Apple is talking about making in mobile devices versus like home computers which is this pivot from Your computer is the center of the world to something else is the center of the world and I think that What they've done with Xbox and what they continue to do is really brilliant and I just I feel like that magic is they haven't Found a way to transfer that magic elsewhere if you look at their current ads like there's this ad it was actually pretty good where this guy is running around a grocery store and the the shopping list keeps on updating and it starts out normal then like oh candy and you know I don't know coconut or whatever and it turns out his kids are like laughing and they're editing on a Windows PC They're editing the shopping. Yes, and I think they still do see that the the PC as the center And if you look at the services that are on the phone right now, they're about like, you know, one note their outlook You know, they're about connecting to these successful services and platforms that have been on the PC instead of what you know Xbox Live did was it did a brand new service and you know brand wait so brand new things I disagree with you But but only in a only in this in this tiny way because what those ads are about is not about the PC being the Center that phone isn't connected to the PC Both devices are updated in the cloud and this is Microsoft saying all you know three screens in a cloud It's what's at the center is it still saying that are they say every now and again? They'll say it but they're saying at the center of all this is the cloud and everything is a client and we have these rich It's the same thing Apple said, but they but but that might be what they're thinking But in reality what they actually showed was a PC in a phone They didn't show the cloud obviously, but they showed a PC in the phone and when they say what is their line Windows everything? Or something. What's their tagline for those ads? It's a good time to be No, it's a great time. It's a great time to be a family. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know those ads Don't do anything for me Especially because that one feature like I you can you can have it on all kinds of devices Multi-client like I can do that with simple note right now. You can do it with remember right now I can I yeah, I do this all the time with simple now and I love it I just think they need to show something if you look at Apple has these current these ads currently on the web that take over the whole top of a website and it's like this girl like she's on an iPod touch and She's you know text messaging. She's playing games She's doing FaceTime and it all stays on that device and it's all pretty emergent things and to be honest Like, you know, I know they have other ads They have one where you shoot a video and then they edit it and stuff like that Whoa, you can edit a video that you shoot but uh, yeah, it requires a lot of devices requires this whole ecosystem And it's not really emergent where most of the things that you see her doing on her iPod touch are pretty emergent, right? I agree It's a problem. What what I just I think you don't you don't like me agreeing with Paul Yeah, I think I think there's a lot of great stuff on Windows Phone But to sell it to start something they need like a huge differentiator. I just yeah, I mean, I mean, I don't know I just You know that we read an article about gadget fatigue. Yeah recently and I wonder if it's a quick read or something So I'm on the site. It's a quick it's on the side. Yeah, you want me to deal with it right now? No, I'm not gonna touch it. I'm not touching that but but anyhow, but I do think there is some There is some fatigue of you know We've been thrown a billion new operating systems and all these like ecosystems, you know It's like web OS and rim and you know symbian and Windows Phone Amazon Amazon's got their thing You know what was really interesting about the fatigue article was that one of the big like theses of it was that? Not that it's going too fast, but if it's not going fast enough, right? There's these endless promises of what's coming. Well, there is nothing quite worth And a lot of that is yeah and a lot of that is what we've seen in mobile Which is you know rim how many times this rim introduced a new OS and talked about their new app? We did history of Android. It's like eight releases in three years. Yeah, I mean Android actually But if you if you track the changes and look at one to four Significantly different operating system with significantly different features. I think sure you give me a real dirty look No, I'm thinking but it's funny because in mobile you're tied into these two-year contracts Yeah, so the actual like inertia for you to get the new version is super hot Yeah, I mean, I think what you want is you want the constant refine I do think we have this like broken, you know, you talk about it being broken But part of that broken model is you know Gruber again made a really great point about this on on the show About and now I've completely blanked on the point But the gist is that we have this cycle that is off, you know, we've got Oh about PC but PC makers being the only people who could get into the phone this phone space in the right way and do Like what what the modern smartphone is? That was the point but on that think on that line of thinking and obviously Full operating system updates don't happen all that often on PCs but the site our cycle for the way these devices work is like we're split between this two-year model of the carriers and this and now we have this explosion of Innovation happening which is you know kind of like the explosion of innovation at that when PCs really started building steam No, but and we're not we're not tracking but there is actually I think an equivalent explosion of innovation on the PC because it's all happening I think explosion of innovation should be like a new series that we do. Yeah, that's like our cruise ship But that's like the new Great buffets by night. Yeah party slide all night dancing party slide a thing by the way I just want party slide. It's like it's like when there's a group of people sliding on one of those water things. Yeah, that's like a Kind of obsessed. I really want to go to a water Problem. I just want to get I'm thinking about it's getting cold. I'm thinking about summertime fun. Go ahead I hate summertime fun. By the way, it's a little like a birds retreat Yeah, the idea of you on a beach I have to say it has happened total burn burn completely from head to toe Where's I you know, I'm I'm a man of leisure. I would like leisure leisure. You're really a man of leisure. I'm a leisure. It's better You were talking about the two-year cycle versus Innovation explosion operating system releases happen somewhat infrequently, right? But the web that's your Microsoft which is every three years or Apple every 18 months, but that's all still a long time Yeah But the web changes insanely fast webs on the move I mean, you know Facebook to timeline today. That's a completely new experience Well, and not only does the web change really fast the the browsers are really fast and Microsoft just announced that they're gonna start pushing Automatic updates to to Mike or not Microsoft announced they would copy Chrome. Yeah. Well, it's good idea like This is this is how you avoid browsers being always, you know Four years behind is you force everybody to update automatic. Yeah, and we did a Doble Who's looking at this morning was Vlad and Joseph Harris and I were looking at a chart of browser versions You know and you can the Chrome versions actually like one drops and one goes up because they push automatic update Yeah, I mean Chrome is Chrome is their their rate of updating is crazy Yeah, which is great because like now they're they're already putting like serious 3d games in the Chrome web store Just because all of a sudden like, you know millions of browsers out there can support I mean, I think and I think you know, and I'll say this as a You know focused on us You know on what we do We've talked a lot about how we want to keep developing the verge and making it better and changing it and adding things and I think and and I feel like we're adopting the kind Of an app an app or web model, which is to always be updating Yeah And I think that for the first time the tools are right the speed which you can get these things pushed out is right because before you had to get it, you know Burn a CD literally, right? There was a period not a long ago where if you wanted someone to get a piece of software You were actually burning a CD and that's actually how we're gonna update get it. Yeah, and by the way We did, you know, we did take we did learn something today. Well, you'll be getting you'll be getting You'll be getting a CD in the mail You'll get five thousand free hours of the bird get a CD in the mail Yeah, we learned with five thousand free hours of sign up with a credit card or a diners club I will you later will bill you monthly until forever until you're dead and it will bill your family No, but but but seriously folks But I do but I do think I do think we're able everybody's able to now move in a much more agile way Right and it's and that's that's new I think it's a new thing and the fact that Chrome keeps getting up that you really like that You really enjoyed that. Oh, it's just I have so many follow-up jokes. I keep thinking I didn't I'm restraining myself I didn't read this thing about um, was it operating system fatigue something fatigue? It's gadget fatigue gadget, but you know, I've complained about this before but everybody's always trying to create the new Standard and so instead of everybody kind of this Happens on the web more where you everybody's kind of iterating on loading each other are doing and are kind of tying into each other's Api's and kind of bouncing back and forth in in the gadget space Everybody is trying to create an entire ecosystem and and it's all designed to be like We'll succeed if we're one of the top three and if we aren't one of the top three we completely failed and and we're all gonna die and We're all going to die but it reminds me that is the most amazing motivational ploy. Yeah, that's really good XKCD comic about standards where the situation is there are 14 competing standards and I'll just send this to me or I can put it on the screen 14. Okay, I'll send it to you Oh, should I email you I guess I just put in the chat. Oh you stream chat Yeah, our links our links enabled I can do that for you. I was gonna do a really good Dramatically, I want you to I want you to still I want you to do it now now is your time, you know What it's XKCD number 9 to 7. I'm not Great moments in the verge cat. Do I need to look at something? This will all be edited out by Trent Yeah, and it'll be added out by Billy on the video. All right, it's on the screen So you're experiencing now for the Billy put it on the big screen. What do you do? What do you have a big screen? I wish I could see like how how crashed X how standards proliferate by mr XKCD Subtitle what is happening in the ustream with this freeze frame? Does everybody see that freeze frame on ustream? No, okay See AC chargers character encodings instant messaging, etc Situation there are 14 competing standards People are people are really excited. They can see themselves 14 ridiculous Why you just direct the listeners to the end to the comic and they know what if they're driving what if they're driving in their car They can have Siri read it to them. I'm pretty sure that you reading in that voice would make them crash the court 14 ridiculous we need to develop one universal standard that covers everyone's use cases other person Yeah, that person's a lady Soon Situation was lady boys. There are 15 competing standards. That's right. I read this come that's what happened You tweeted with standards probably standards man. We got to kill him to one standard to rule them all way to go Proprietary, yeah works been working for Sony really well. Yeah now look, you know what the world needs another memory card format Let's do one in the Vita. Let's do it. You know what? I'd like to see a triangular memory card When are we gonna get you know in sci-fi movies? They always are like here's the information and it's like a octagon or something I'm in right a pyramid right like why can't you put it into like a pyramid slot it into like a reverse pyramid? They have to push the whole thing. You push it slowly and like a little smoke comes out Why don't we have that like I want to have like a crystal that like in Superman like those, you know in his cave of I'm sure it's called the cave of solitude. We should definitely have a Release it's like Joshua Tupolsky's crystal memory crystal. I see how many sites like 90s techno. Yeah When you push it down it plays 90s actors like bar bar bar bar bar bar bar bar that's 90s techno Yeah, just think about it or it's like oh, yeah, it's a country song. Yeah I'm sorry. Seriously, I gotta focus. Okay, we got a focus. Hey, we're like four topics down the list. We are great You know, we can start go all the way back to Xbox and talk about what they did this week I'm sorry, but I I'm like really I want to talk about that I really do I know you do but I'm really kind of hung up now on this idea of having a form of Storage, which is like a Josh Paul sees crystal which is like an object, you know, I mean, we're almost there but they need to like Conceal the connectors. I mean, this is one Photoshop away. It needs to be laser lasers. There's this USB key I wanted to be one how much in line away holographic laser. So yeah, you just you don't actually hold it. It's just Well, if you see actually if you when we we have a bunch of on the minute We actually we actually a bunch of stuff from from Microsoft Research Which is like along these lines like they had there was a thing that we looked at it at one of the projects They had there which is using projectors and you can get a piece of information That's like a ball of light and you can move it from hand to hand and then put it on to something It's pretty crazy people haven't seen you know, I think people saw that that thing we've done the show at Microsoft Research And they're like, why did you just make fun of them? We actually have a bunch of segments from that that we didn't air yet and there's one that's one of those things They have some really really cool stuff there. Anyhow totally off topic, but kind of not Did you see the Minority Report trailer where like Tom Cruise's right trailer or not minority? I still constantly go to college the new mission of post-partum. It's goes I was thinking Minority report because he's doing these days doing he's like driving but he's like swiping things that is windshield I'm so sick of people with heads of display swiping things away. Let's go and want that like that's a thing We're gonna be doing soon. No, I get that You know what never happens with you? It's a people with those Excuse me. No, you're trying to see the game Yeah, have you ever seen the see the game gesture with glass interfaces where they like make eye contact with somebody through the glass and like It's like a poignant moment like they're they're immersed in their their information Oh, they look up and there's someone standing off in the distance. Yeah, somebody which is why we shouldn't have see-through displays Yeah, because people are distracted You know what'll happen is when we all have see-through displays and offices, you know You'll be working on something to me be the background going like doing this stuff try to get your attention And you're like what they're like no No, then I was just trying to mess with you by the way for those of you who are just listening to that I was like jiggling around it's like juke suggestive. It's kind of a jazz hand chucking chucking and driving. Yeah, I don't know Anyhow, I don't know but all I speak of Xbox speaking of Microsoft innovations What was that noise? I don't know man. I like this It's good. Now. It's for loose. It's good. I know so they've been a long time Xbox stuff this week. Are we talking about Xbox again? Yeah She's talking about the first time we talked about it. Yeah, you know you're talking about the pivot they're making with Xbox It's not the center and they rolled out YouTube they rolled out Fios TV for five subscribers not for regular people now Why would you want why would you want to pay for television service? Time Warner called me this week and they were like look you've been such a good customer I pay them like more than $100 a month for DOCSIS and no TV nothing just DOCSIS and They're like you've been such a good customer I'm like, yes I'm gonna get it like a sweet deal on something and they're like you could get a basic cable package for 69.95 a month. Yeah, and a free install dude. You mean though the way of the install fee? Yeah You do it You should have you hate That's all offensive Paul's a cord cutter. Yeah, I cut the cord so long ago, you know, you have no it was cool Nice, you have no interest in cords So this is this is weird. It's like it's such a first non step towards cord cutting But it's like you can see where they're going. Well, I mean, it's a great step. It's a great step It's not but like you don't get you can't really know DVR. You can't pause you can't rewind there's no on-demand They could they could do that though. Maybe there's no There's like what an on-demand channel now just 20 but netflix is on demand It's it's on demand like you turn it on who lose on who is on demand Well, you mean you could turn it you could turn it on when you want to turn Turns on I don't think cord cutting is about not paying for things No, I think but it's about you have to have the cable I have no you have to have aios right or you have to have another you have to have fios television You can't just a fios like I have no I understand. I have no Ios is not even on the on the table here We're only sorry guys. No, you go ahead. Sorry. We're just too blue car guys We're say so were I to want to watch a sports show. I have no Legal option. Yes, you do. Come on now. Are you kidding me getting antenna? You live in New York City? This is what you can watch get it antenna. What is this the night? 23 it's like I Live in New York City and I have to like climb watch a roof and on any part of your body My antenna is is actually it's about the size I have an antenna and I have a tuner for work for my computer and I get two channels What's what's the problem that you need the antenna? What's going on with that? You watch most of shows people in a lot turn that were television, right? Well, it used to be but actually still are castle they constantly do the act because they because they are forced into watching them Well, it's good And they also the networks demand the highest advertising rates because they're the biggest audience they paid the most money for the show But no one can deny that there is a better show on television than boardwalk Empire I had actually not seen it or no one could say I guess because you would deny it I have no legal Avenue for yes you do. Well, well, you actually you know You could get the first season on Apple TV or something. Yeah, right? Yeah, you could pay for some since in glorious. Go to Best Buy and buy the 720p. I mean, that's fine I mean honestly, if you broadcast if you if you really are like nitpicking over 720, you know Oh, I can't watch this in 1080. I can't watch it. No. Why I don't have a legal option to watch it Anyways, but were I how about illegally do you partake not not often? It's a good show. It's worth I can't give us I can't give a show. I've steeled She's right just make steel just professional writer really falling apart here couple years anyway, look so I'm going but you know the the tragedy of the Xbox right now with the TV stuff is that you can get live television the small selection of live television from Verizon and you can get this big selection of on-demand from Comcast But you are literally prevented from having both because you as you live in one cable monopoly or another So it's like if you could combine those two things You'd be a very happy person because you would have all the services and all the content you want So they need to get there. They're like they're closer and closer I don't know that I would ever use it but it's like cool that it's there Like if you have an Xbox and you have like a basement and certain in your basement You can watch some of your channels now that having cable or you could do a media streamer Situation if you want to go crazy Maybe we're just gonna Xbox the only thing in people a lot of people ask me about the Kinect stuff I mean getting a cable card in a PC is still the best option if you are willing to go through the pain That's a lot of expense, right? It's a lot of money Yeah, it's a lot of pain and a lot of expense, right? But you can do all the DVR stuff. You can stream to your Xbox you can stream to multiple Xboxes You can do all kinds of crazy stuff. You get multiple cable cards that simultaneous I mean, but it's a hundred percent and it's still not on demand which is just ridiculous It's just ridiculous that you can't just choose a show that you want to watch and start watching That is the moment it begins to air anywhere There's a lot of fear, okay the idea that that you could do that it's it's a scary idea to the The owners of that content. Yeah, think about what might happen if you could do that if you could pay them to watch Yeah people people paying for content rampantly, you know what I really want and I've said this million times I just want to be able to pay a ton of money to watch a new movie on my TV Yeah, like what what what's the what's the amount? What's the amount that you would pay to be able to watch? Like Twilight breaking dawn There are they are doing it now. It's like 25 or $30. No That's in the second window. The first window is still like five thousand dollars. No, but there's no Yeah, but no, no, but they're like a hundred fifty dollar window to wait. What are you talking about? It's different window. Where where is there a window? So the way you know this the way though. Yeah, it's twenty thousand dollars What are you talking like if you're like really rich you can just get a digital print like a theater would you know? I'm talking about for a regular human. No, this is prima. This is a system It's prima digital and they come if you have like a home theater. What if I just have a 42 inch television? They won't do it. How much is the service? How much is it cost for a movie? 20,000 no, no, I didn't mean twenty thousand dollars. I meant like 20,000 bucks The 20,000 is a setup fee to set up the DRM. Okay, and then each individual movie is $500 seems reasonable Yeah, doesn't seem bad 500 bucks a movie after $20,000 and install. Yeah, I mean if you're really rich that doesn't matter nothing Part of the 1% you have a Mercedes if you have a Mercedes you can drive a Mercedes You can see how I was is better. We're gonna we're gonna we're gonna address this at the end of the podcast But I just want to get some stuff out there I'm just saying I'm no I'm talking about and they are doing this like with some movies. Yeah, they're like first run You know, you can get like melancholy on zoom. Yeah, right and Sleeping Beauty. There's a couple of others like a few movies But they're not moving. Most of them are not movies that I want to see but like I want to be able to see Breaking Dawn Yeah one Volume one at my home. Yeah when it's released and I'll pay a lot of money for that I don't mean I'm not gonna pay $500 for it. I'd consider paying $100 for it. Really? Yeah I'm not just for Breaking Dawn. I'm not just for Breaking Dawn volume one But like a movie. Yeah, instead of going to the theater. Have you seen that yet? No, I'd like to really is it good? Incredible. Yeah, really. I'm looking forward to it because now that I've seen every other Twilight movie like repeatedly on cable This is the thing about cable. I actually tweeted about it last night that I've seen Almost all of Little Fockers in five-minute bursts over a six-month period Because like every you know every so often I'll sit down for the TV with nothing really to watch and I'm not you know I just kind of want to veg out and I'll put on it one of the 500 HBO's that I have Yeah, and it Little Fockers is hot and it's a scene I haven't seen before And I'm starting to stitch together a narrative from it. You've ambiently seen Little Fockers No, I know what's going on. I know all about the plight of the Fockers Can I tell you a crazy story about one of my friends in college? I'd really prefer that you didn't but I think you're going to No, but he was he would he would he worked at I think it was Argo National Labs Just far away from the University of Chicago and he'd never wanted to drive home in traffic So he would go to the local movie theater and buy one ticket and then just wander from movie to movie And he was a totally insane physics major And he would talk about how he started to construct a 60 narrative of all the movies he was watching at one time Yeah, and after about three or four weeks of watching every movie in the theater at once He constructed one meta narrative and it's like at this time the bar It's 1 30 in the morning. No because it would change over time I thought there was just like an overarching like all all films have the same story Actually the hero's journey once after we drank a while longer three acts. Yeah There's a conflict in the middle Hijinks in the beginning all movies are the same beginning middle end I figured it out. I solved it. I solved it. I cracked it Right. Anyhow, I'm gonna move on. Yeah, talk about These guys? Zyborg? Can I just read? Zyborg by the way, Zyborg supposed to sound like cyborg? Let me read Joanna's opening line. This might be the best opening line. I'm just asking What? Why you give me that look? And I wish she was here, but she's at me. She is here. She's here? She just walked in I thought. I didn't see her. Yeah, she's here. Patrick said she's here She's here? She's here. It doesn't matter. What does it matter? Joanna's here. She's in the room. Congratulations She addresses the name. Let me just read this to you Zyborg. It's a portmanteau that can mean a number of things A skateboarding robot. A xylophone mashed up with a keyboard Maybe even a science fiction novel about a xenophobic cyborg named Bored But sadly, Zyborg, or at least the one of 2011, isn't any of those things It's just Verizon's name for its new family of tablets Now I would say that a xenophobic cyborg named Bored, I would buy that novel Like the Adventures of Bored, the Zyborg. I can't even say it To be perfectly honest with you. I was thinking about what would happen in that I don't know. Well, you would be afraid of other races What do you like? So I have to say, this size, I'm holding the 8.9 You can see it. This is completely silly to me Why? Because it's not small enough to be actually portable It's the in-between. But why do you... Just read books on it There's no... Let me see it. I always like this. It's heavy I don't know why they bothered with this at this moment in time I really don't. And you know what's funny is that... We got a new clock on here. Oh, Billy's coming in There's a ton of fingerprints on this. And this one is dead Can I have that one? Nope. I'm busy moving this analog clock around Here you go. No, it's very like... They didn't address the software It's the processor slower than the Transformer Prime And it has LTE, but the LTE sucks down the battery life And they're ridiculously expensive. And what's interesting is that Vlad reviewed the Zoom 2s this week Which are the same products in England without LTE And came to essentially the same conclusion, which is... You should have waited until you... I mean, this product is all about software Ultimately, right? And it's not about the hardware It's about software. Ultimately, right? And they haven't addressed the... They just cut off the corners and made it thinner But Ice Cream Sandwich isn't going to revolutionize the tablet software I think people are... I think if you're an app developer on Android You have to wait for Ice Cream Sandwich to come and do something But ostensibly if they're creating an Ice Cream Sandwich version of their app for the phone It's going to work great on a tablet, right? Isn't that the whole point? But they can't do that with Honeycomb, right? I mean, that's kind of the problem I just don't know why... Look, $630 on contract with Verizon is an insane price for these products I don't know why you'd do it I don't know why Motorola spent the time to build arbitrary stylus support into the 10.1 Is it arbitrary or is it really arbitrary? It's just sort of... It's super important Yeah, that's what I want to do with it I want to use a stylus Everybody's crazy about style these days We don't do enough with our hands. Everything's virtual now It is hard to write though, I'll say that When you've been off it for a long time, you have to write something out with a pen and paper Very difficult, very challenging I just sign the checks to my workers I start cramping up really quickly I know I mean, soon we're just going to be blobs with a jack in our head And we're just going to plug in to the internet We're just going to be huge blobs And we're just going to jack into the matrix This is the end I mean, it's the beginning of the end Or it's the end of the beginning Are we beginning to evolve into our next species? Blobs Humanoid blobs We have the blob form of it, then we transcend where all our minds merge together Eventually the singularity, of course, we become just light Light coursing through the veins of the matrix Of the universe Which is purely digital Authentically digital The universe brought to you by Microsoft That'd be amazing God sees the universe as a metro you are Well, I mean, think about it I mean, logically speaking, we don't know that we're not that right now It'd be awesome I don't want to go down the road We're just a pixel at a large Windows phone set on the screen You've definitely read the thing where it's like statistically No, no, we've talked about it We are that way We are in a simulation The worst part about that for me is that if the simulation was programmed by a person who's Christian, I'm screwed Because the logical end of the simulation is heaven or hell And I'm an atheist I'm just coming back Maybe it was programmed by an atheist, though Screwdriver Huh? How, guys? Orange I'm just, whatever You say you're coming back as a screwdriver? I don't know, whatever it is Or an orange You're like, I'm just really craving an orange Julius right now, guys I'd like to put something together while enjoying some citrus Is that so hard to understand? An orange does sound good right now Right? They're in season, right? That's a winter fruit I don't know What? I don't think so Well, they're year-round in Florida I know, but I think it's like a There's only one season in Florida They're in their prime in the winter I don't know, but I have to say, if somebody brought me a peeled orange right now, I would definitely eat it You wouldn't peel it yourself? It doesn't matter No I wouldn't peel it myself We're so off the game Do you use that orange peeler device or do you just Oh, you get in there You just start and pull It just happens Just tear it It's good, I'm glad to hear it Anyhow, do we even have any topics left? We have like three more We really should, okay, mega upload story I don't even know how to begin this story, so This is insane It's so ridiculous Can we just start at the beginning with the mega upload So there's a song Can we talk about this mega upload I don't know if you guys have seen this You out there in the world There's a mega upload It's called the mega song Commercial It's a commercial and it has a bunch of really crazy celebrities in it But it's like the we are the world of commercials It's we are the world of mega upload commercials But it's like Kanye and Kim Kardashian And they're all gathered around the mic And they're like holding them Obviously they went to different places to film some of this But people are like I love mega upload I want to know I'm playing the song Yeah, get that in there This goes on for like ten minutes too I mean it's a long song But here's what I am trying to figure out Was Kanye paid to say he likes mega upload? That's what they claim And this is Will.i.am There's Macy Gray at the end They claim he was paid? Mega upload So the CEO Typically when you endorse a product you're getting paid for it Let me just start at the beginning And they're definitely saying I love mega upload The foundational part of the story is that mega upload has a CEO Who has changed his name to Kim.com So that's step one That is awesome That is amazing Step two The only use for mega upload is to steal things Yeah, so okay, stop So no, right? So the RIA, the Hollywood record label RIA makes it sound cool The RIA That's like an organization RIA is like a It's a battery No, RIA It's like a hip club of artists Yeah, exactly Go ahead Carry on But they run around and they always characterize mega upload And all these other services as quote unquote rogue file sharing sites So Kim.com wants to fight back against it He says everybody uses us whether or not you admit it I'll hire all these artists to be in our commercial I do not believe that they can afford to get all of these artists to sing this ridiculous song Well, what is the explanation? I think they stole some footage They tricked them? I don't know what they did No, I don't think so, man You think they just paid the money? They're like will.i.am, please write a song for mega upload No, I think Well, first off, will.i.am is not going to do Is that a will.i.am song? Yeah, I think so Okay, so that came from somewhere Somebody got paid to do that The Black Eyed Peas are on break so he's got time And he's poor now I spent all the money from our hits on what? I don't know More studio equipment I wanted a really good studio But look, I think there's some nominal fee being paid Or some small fee just being paid to everybody who does it Or maybe they're just being given access to the fast mega upload for free You don't have to wait 30 seconds Kanye's like no, I'm not interested But we'll give you access to the fast version where you don't have to wait Which is download and he's like alright, I'll do whatever you want But this happened somehow Right? It's real So a video happened The video's real though People are saying those things We agree about that They're not computer generated It's not a 3D Kanye West I don't know It's not a render None of those artists have come out Step three or whatever we're at Step one is they made this video, nobody knows how it got made Step two is Universal starts getting it pulled off of YouTube They get it pulled off of Vimeo They start putting out these DMCA takedown notices Somebody made a really good point that somebody's going to take down this video Because we just played the song I will cut them This isn't happening in the justice system You'll run up to them and shank them This is happening in the justice system Capital J Capital J Go on This is my vigilante lawyer movie, Capital J For justice Just think about it Anyway I can't tell if you're being serious or not Dead serious I'm thinking about helping you on the screenplay Step two, Universal starts pulling it off all these sites They claim But to do it they have to have some claim Which is you are using a song of ours Which I doubt somebody at Universal wrote the mega upload song Or our artist didn't consent to being in this video That's not a copyright claim That's a publicity claim I have no idea I haven't read their entire claim Every celebrity I guess it only takes one I just assume that a label has some sort of rights to their musicians appearing in other musical products They do, but you have to make something and copy it for it to be copyright infringement You can't do this takedown stuff I manage Kanye so he can't do music without my consent Right, but that doesn't let you pull something off of YouTube YouTube's system for doing that is all about I made this thing, you made an illegal copy of it I agree with that Not I have rights over Kanye's performance It does seem abusive of YouTube So then mega upload turns around and sues Universal Which is insanity So Kim Dotcom vs Universal Music Group is a thing? I just want to read that paperwork That's great They sue them for these fraudulent takedown notices Is that D-O-T? Yeah, Kim Dotcom So dot is middle name? No, it's Dotcom Do they refer to him as honorable? Sir Dotcom Does he own Kim Dotcom? If that goes to mega upload I'm going to freak out If he's got enough money to put Kanye in Kim's podcast How do you not have this mega upload guy? Wait, there's nothing in Kim Dotcom? So you tried Kim Dotcom Dotcom? No, but I'm sure he owns this He just doesn't have anything on it Everybody's furiously going to Kim Dotcom right now Don't google Kim Dotcom Somebody has Kim Dotcom Dotcom on YouTube I bet it's Kim Dotcom Dotcom Anyhow, go ahead Okay, so that's all happening It's really shady We covered it a little bit because we think it's funny They made the song, we want to show people the song And that's kind of where we're at with it Over the weekend, we make this decision We're not going to dive deep into this Everything about it seems shady Both sides are probably wrong in the end There's some amount of wrong happening on every level Our friends, Tom Merritt and Sarah Lane Sarah Lane did 5 minutes on the verge with us this week That's right They do Tech News Today at Twit They reported on it on Monday Put it up on YouTube like they do Universal got their report pulled off of YouTube Because they had the audacity to play part of the song This is what we just did And the first time they played it, they didn't even play the audio This is now like a First Amendment Yeah, this is like Now we're crossing into We are definitely commenting on this piece of Yeah, they played just the video We're in Supreme Court territory now And they were just talking about it And then they were like, well we want you to hear it a little bit So a little bit later, they played like another 5 seconds Like we just did Like we just did Like here's this thing that we're talking about, you should see it Which is like in the Copyright Act It straight up says This is allowed for purposes of news reporting and commentary I just want to know how I need to know the genesis of this thing Like what is going on? It's true that mega upload is definitely used to steal things Maybe in their minds it's like, this should have never existed Right, Universal just wanted to go away This is beyond copyright infringement It's like reality infringement Like this can't be real By the way, 100% my line of young adults Legal novels, reality infringement It's science fiction but across a legal twist I thought you were working on a movie So I get what you're saying It's like how George Lucas Yeah, it's just edited It's like how he wants, who is it? Is it Greedo shoots first? Or now like Darth Vader yells no No, he's always yelling when? No, when he gets thrown No You haven't seen that? No, that sucks Can I make a personal appeal? A personal appeal from Josh Dupolsky George Lucas, leave your shit alone Just stop Just seriously, you know what No one wants it Only you And everybody hates it Please stop Anyhow, back to Kim.com Let me just finish Revision is history They want to erase this from reality So the way YouTube works Because YouTube gets a lot of these all the time Their system is mostly automated So they have an automatic system that flags your thing Or somebody can flag it So they flagged the Tech News Today segment Tom went on it and said no, I'm not infringing copyright And then a human being at Universal had to receive that And then file essentially a formal takedown request Like the formal, legal, this is a violation of copyright Where YouTube has to take it down for at least 10 days And they can challenge it and then we'll come back with a lawsuit So Universal is not, it's not like they tried it and it didn't work and they went away They came back with the sort of implied threat of we're going to sue you To be fair, YouTube is typically on the wrong side of this In the fact that they have Even though they have instilled some pretty good systems They have profited so hugely from copyright infringement No, they built the business on copyright It's like Groupshark They have made so many billions of dollars I only use YouTube for copyright infringing things When I need to hear a song Or a chopped and screwed remix of a song Right, or you want to watch an old movie It's funny, I send people Now that audio has that free, it's like a limited time Or a limited amount of plays or something, it's free I send people audio links still And they're like, I can't see that Can you just send me a YouTube link Right Well, it's a problem I mean this is a much deeper discussion about I'm sure Neal I would love to have this Well no, right now, Groupshark is being sued The labels are suing Groupshark For a really good reason Because they feel they uploaded all this music to their service Without any rights And then they send emails to Groupshark Well their argument is that How soon until Turntable FM is No, they're good Are they? They're good Really? I can upload anything I want to that And then play it Yeah, that's weird, right? Yeah, it doesn't seem like that would be covered They exist in this weird corner That's like the radio license Yeah, it's a radio license Yeah, so they have to pay every time that song is played They pay, that's it It's like Pandora Right I will say things I uploaded are now gone Is that normal? That's the idea Because you are broadcasting I am It's weird And Groupshark is saying Oh look, all these songs were just uploaded by our users They're the ones doing the And rooms get full on Turntable, right? Right It's not unlimited I think it's a combination of I have no idea The rooms have a maximum size Yeah, well no, you can't play to like nobody You can't just be in there by yourself There's a minimum number of people in there I like that And you can't play the same song over and over I like the idea that you can't listen to music by yourself Well it's weird Because it's radio Sure That's a weird example of like this new service Living in a set of carve outs that were made for radio In like the 30s Right And it's also the same thing like you know Cover songs are carved out because they made exceptions For like player pianos But that's a core part of that And I think Turntable has a really great approach to it That is within the spirit of the law If a slight tweak on it And Grooveshark is definitely very counter No, they don't steal And you know what's crazy is that if you read And I don't know how we got on Grooveshark But if you read the Grooveshark emails They say things to each other like We'll just steal stuff until we have 100 million uniques And then they'll have to pay us Because they'll want to know who all those people are And it's like that number is insanity That's the AOL homepage, right I mean that's You're not going to get there Like what are you talking It's like we'll just do it until we build a skyscraper to the moon I like the sounds of that That could be the start of the Star Trek world that we want to live in Once there's a skyscraper to the moon Once Grooveshark builds a skyscraper Yeah No, I mean This is all crazy But how does this relate to mega uploading Kim Dotcom No, you're right It's all these services They exist in these gray areas of the law Where unbalanced they're probably wrong Right Like YouTube built itself openly on copyright infringement We're just going to upload a bunch of stuff and see what happens Most of the content you want to watch on YouTube Is like It's not skateboarding dogs, right It's like these viral spikes of skateboarding dogs The high value of YouTube is I can go watch any video I want to watch a movie quote I want to watch 50 quotes of Robert De Niro That's there You're like I've done this All this to say is that this is one case where they're clearly doing it wrong on the flip side They're doing it super wrong And so YouTube has so much liability So much potential liability that they have to take this stuff down And Universal is just completely abusing that Yes But if they take us down because of this That's awesome That would be The best thing ever Reporting on the report that got taken down Neelai is going to be like a phoenix where he's going to explode into flames This is part of the script And then he'll be rebirthed as a super log Yeah this is the opening scene of Justice the movie What? I think it can work Yeah I mean you got to have the right You got to get the right George Lucas ILM ILM in there do some effects for you Capital J Justice Capital J That's what sets it It's a long The full title is Capital J Justice It's a long title Anyhow what else do we have on our list? Just two HP things The brand deep redesign that we saw And actually we never talked about open source in depth We can skip that And we talked about that on the show We talked about it on the show Yeah I don't There's nothing to say You think Meg Whitman lied She lied About web OS tablets in 2013 In 2013 I will say this In 2013 nobody's going to care about web OS No That's a year from now Yeah Think about how little people care about it now I didn't get to say this on the show because you guys were just talking about We were interrupting you So many cool things Screaming at you You know who cares about what Paul is saying I was crying About anything But I think they have to make a tablet And they have to ship a tablet because they said they would And then they can pull it again No they're going to They're going to be Windows 8 They're going to do exactly what they said they were going to do Before Whitman started saying other stuff Which is We're going to evaluate it like every other operator Maybe they'll say like Okay here's our Windows 8 tablet We differentiated it using the open source components of web OS Is that possible? No Because I think Windows 8 is going to be like Like Neelai was saying it's going to be even tighter control than Windows I was saying that I think it was Neelai making that really cogent point It's both of us there Pretty sure I said that I believe it was Neelai He said all the good stuff And then you were just like yelling about something Just reading XKCD comments Exactly In voices Yeah Yeah I mean I just I do think that it's possible that they're just kind of full of it That maybe that's the line right now But they'll get to the end of 2012 and be like You know we've evaluated the product We've seen its development over the last year What? HP had the videos they're redesigned poll it looks like Really? Yeah Well I'm sure I can get a lot of crap for it Anyway I just think it's possible to say we've evaluated the product And given the presence of Windows 8 tablets in the marketplace And it's not financially viable You can't trust a company to build a product And then continue to sell it before it just changes its mind On selling a product that it's already built a bunch of Why would you trust a company? But it's also insane the touch pad is much more of a success than any Windows 8 tablet It's a crazy story I would love to see some weird world where like WebOS and Amigo just slowly float into each other You know there's Oh that world is coming There's a strong compatibility like a game developed for the native WebOS code Because it's just straight native Linux can run on Amigo stuff Yeah but what's the audience for that? I don't know Ten dudes Ten Finnish guys So Ubuntu is looking towards mobile I think eventually there are compelling viable desktop alternatives that are created open source I mean there are I think theoretically there's going to be room Especially as platforms mature and standardize a little more on the hardware side There's going to be room and slight demand for an open source platform I don't know which one it's going to be But there already is but the demand comes from carriers and from manufacturers not from people I think the future open source platform is the web I don't think it's about a platform WebOS No I'm just saying like in actuality I do think we're going to get to a place where the web becomes so advanced That it's indistinguishable from a native application You can't have the web without a browser so then it's like who controls the browser No but it's about the browser I'll tell you who controls the browser whoever is making the best browser Clearly people don't their allegiances will shift But are you going to buy a phone because it has the best browser? I don't think we'll think about it in those terms when it gets to that point I think it'll be like I mean think of it I mean I think that in the future it's best to think of it as like there is nothing else There is no browser I don't think we'll get there I think native will always significantly outpace what's happening I think it depends on what you think of as native versus I just think that you will get to a point with the way things are being delivered Where they're being delivered That stuff will become indistinguishable I'm not talking about HTML5 I'm talking about something else that we don't have yet Which is the experience of native I guess it's like when you get to a point think about how much is built now That's part of a native app that is like the web essentially Right but that only works I would say right now that only works like 85% No no no right now I'm talking 5-10 years I'm not talking about right around the corner but it's coming I do think that at some point it becomes less about I think that we will reach a point where The technology allows for things to truly be fluid in the sense that in the way that they're not now And then maybe it is a question of who's got the best technology to power that And that is like you say web but it's not a web browser anymore Something else Maybe No It's like that future to me looks like the Gmail app for iOS right Which is like this insane combination of native and web Look how better that has gotten in a year That's the problem Wait wait wait it's only been out for like 3 weeks No no but Gmail for mobile web Same with like these Netflix apps where it's all kind of built in HTML5 in a wrapper And look at 5 or 10 years ago on a look at a web page on a mobile device And what they were capable of doing But I think it's like that mental block and I have the same thing where I can't get past the concept of like load more messages Where it's this awful HTML experience or HTML5 experience that doesn't really deliver in a lot of ways that a native app would But then I think this is now By the way since we started talking I just installed this is a game that was on Xbox live original Oh really that's Do you still have this Wikipedia extension Is that for Chrome Oh yeah I still have that guy that pops up on Wikipedia Wait a second is that in Chrome Yeah this is the Chrome Oh Bastion is available in Chrome I didn't know that I just clicked install it installed it was 40 megabytes It's flash though right I don't know what it is It is flash It's probably flash Here find out I'm right clicking I'm trying to right click it's not doing it Oh my god you broke it you broke your Macbook Let's see view It's obviously flash It has to be flash That looks like a lot of code Anyhow Does anybody want to talk about this Somebody is yelling it's not flash I don't think it's flash It's not flash Because they also some 3D games Oh right oh right Native client yeah Yeah I forgot Guys dude we got it You're a little out Josh No no I'm not yelling Josh I'm yelling at our chat Well no I did yell though it was very loud No no but the point is Calm down No okay but this is a great point Native client But you still had to download Well I like Imagine a world where everybody has LTE I clicked install I clicked install With a cap data plan The app was installed right away and then I launched the app and that downloaded inside of the app I like the person who just said you forgot where genius is Native client dudes Native client I've lost my cursor inside the game so that's awesome Well the kinks are being worked out but my point is that I think we're going to get to We're getting there But I think you talk about like oh there's this open source this market for open source You know but like at some point we're going to have to stop thinking about things like Will Migo and webOS join together and it's going to be like We're not going to be thinking about things like that anymore I believe Well yeah something's got to run the browser Something has to manage the memory Well there will be I mean the browser is already a portal into applications Okay Because applications they're not But I'm saying something has to run the browser Something has to run the browser Well but it won't be running the browser it will be running the environment that that stuff runs in I mean it will be it's like So you're saying Chromebooks You're thinking of like a browser like a URL essentially yeah I think Chromebooks will become something much more advanced and much more useful than they are now I think that the idea of a fluid completely fluid Look people have standardized around HTML They standardized I mean they have done this This has occurred on the web and it's continuing to occur and grow and to change and evolve And the more advanced that becomes the more you start to see the world of I have you know it's not I have a Mac app or a PC app I mean this is of course like doom like horrible for a company like Apple who wants to have control over an ecosystem So there's going to be the alternate right the alternative to that But I do think that we're moving towards a place where these things are delivered you know over the air in what is essentially a web environment It's crazy that Apple's original idea Paul is just playing the game Is he? Let me see it can I see it? You've seen trailers for this right? Yeah I actually was going to get this for wow This guy narrates whatever you do I like this new podcast Yeah Wow this looks great This is exciting Wow what? Narrated by Sam Shepard Wow that's not good I want to play this later This is great is everybody enjoying this as much as we are? You know what you can just get it in your browser did you pay for it? No it's free I assume you pay for more levels I don't know Unlock full game Anyhow all I'm saying is Five years ago not even remotely possible to do this Remember Apple's original plan was that everything would just happen in the browser Steve Jobs didn't want to do apps he wanted everything to happen in the browser Yeah you mean for the iPhone? For the iPhone It didn't work out That's because we're not there yet From a technology standpoint we're not there yet but we're going to get there and then it's going to start to be I mean then that's going to be really an interesting new era for computing because we're not talking about If it works in Chrome and let's just say works on WebKit browsers or WebKit based browsers I mean the whole problem though is native client means developing your app for the actual native hardware each time anyways Well but I'm saying if you knew you could get the same level of performance across a certain there's a certain benchmark You have a fragmentation problem if you're developing something natively in C++ But that'll run in That's the problem on Android Stuff doesn't work across all the devices because it's being hard coded to support GPUs And if it doesn't support a certain GPU then it won't run on that device I mean we're not there yet I'm not saying that we are but I'm just saying that like we're going to there's going to be a point I'm talking about in the very near future and maybe we're just going in circles here But I think we're talking about a near future where the idea of the platform becomes less important in the end And it's really all about not the browser I don't want to keep saying the browser because it isn't the browser You're just saying like internet delivery of apps I'm just saying internet delivery Like live apps that are like Yeah live apps I mean I think that there will be native stuff stored there has to be you know always I think it's going to be stuff on Android But I will say I think native development will always significantly outpace the web And I think that that will be where the cutting edge things happen I mean I think it depends on where our tools go in the next few years I think it'll be both I mean I don't think there's going to be a not both situation I suppose I mean to have a yeah I mean I suppose so I think there's going to be a blur I think it's going to be a real we're going to start to break You know Dave Weiner wrote something about apps versus the web and I thought it was I don't you know it's I don't think it's an either or thing ultimately But I do think that we're going to see a real blurring of those things And that they're going to be become more indistinguishable And you already see them feeding off of each other where you know something like Sparrow or Tweety Kind of looks like a little bit like you're kind of in a browser But it just has a little more chrome on it And you know Google's you know documents and Gmail obviously brought a lot of desktop features You know remember like Gmail was probably the first like AJAX experience A lot of people experience you know that was a lot of I mean if you look at docs like I edit in docs all the time using keyboard shortcuts And like there's a file menu I just wrote this editorial on UI And someone pointed out that you know a lot of my problems with desktop UIs With all these drop shadows and you know bevels and all these weird things going on Are pretty they would look silly on the web because web has kind of gone in a way maybe past that Where you know web is a little more flat a little more simple If you look at Google's design language across its web apps I think it's much more mature than a lot of desktop design Yeah I agree I mean certainly more mature than stitch leather Yeah I mean like this is beautiful Right Although I will say that it's kind of I will say it's kind of insane that when you click on the search box here It takes you into that You don't just type into the box It's really weird that is like a little bit odd It's no just type Yeah it is no just type that also takes you into something as well though Yeah It opens something I mean this is pretty you know this is the real problem is that Google has the talent right Google's Are we going back to this? We are look Samsung's interface designers aren't as good as Google's Right Which is fundamentally like there's only so much talent in the world They're establishing a new like software center or whatever to work harder So am I Work harder at making our lives miserable No I establish a software center every day which doesn't have any results and nobody cares about it and that's like I'm done okay I'm done with technology I'm over it Do you want to talk about or exciting you higher and we can get out of here? We never talked about this brand redesign by the way We immediately started talking about web to web I'm a little confused What? Big slash little slash The HP brat We've never talked about it I don't know it can be reworked into a middle finger that's all I know Somebody giving you the finger that's what I learned from our commenters Yeah so we so we're bringing on a new as senior editor in the UK Tom Warren who was the editor in chief of Neo win and runs a cycle win rumors right now He'll be coming over he's not going to continue to run win rumors I mean he's going to be full time with us and we're really excited He's an awesome writer he is Today was his first day it was really great Yeah he's in he's hanging out with us now he's in our IRC room and everything it's very exciting But he's you know has put a focus on on Microsoft obviously over the last 10 years He's going to do that but he's going to do more than that at the site and yeah I'm just psyched You know we have 2012 is a big year for us we have a lot of stuff to do and a lot to prove and you know we have to get bigger and better And we have to you know we're going to bring on more people and Tom is like a great new addition to the team I couldn't be more excited Yeah that's all I have to say about it Yeah well and I will say so I will say one other thing we actually have so on the thing that we were talking about earlier how we're adding features and making additions and stuff We have a new feature coming late tonight which is like a fairly substantial feature I guess I should talk about I'm going to write a post about it Yeah I mean as long as I mean as far as far as let me just double check with Justin to make sure that we're definitely doing this I tweeted earlier like yeah when I tweeted if you were if you were running your website like an app would you really use new features really subtle and our CEO Jim bank off immediately replied was like probably not What did you say I tweeted if you're running your website like an app would you tease new features discuss and bank off immediately wrote back like tweeted back to me as like as a joke and it's like probably not it's pretty entertaining Okay so I'm just checking with our with our developers right now I would be like we're doing we're launching this thing tonight right I wouldn't give too much away just for it's not like it's not gonna it's not gonna blow your mind it's gonna change it's a cool feature it won't blow your mind but it'll change it will change your life It could lead to a new career path We're adding a new feature tonight which is a user facing feature which will allow you to further interact with our product database and with our with content on the site and it will give users more of an opportunity to share their voice and opinions about products You just gave it away man I don't think so See if you know let's see if anybody's guessed Comment editing I wish it was comment editing It's not comment editing. Anyhow, but um, but we'll have some so hopefully we'll roll that out tonight as far as I know we're rolling it out later tonight. I'll have a post on it. Some people are not right. Some people are like, let me just guess lemons. I don't know where that came from. Anyhow, so that's coming. And then and then finally I just really It's face chat. You got it. Face chat. Yeah, that's it. You have to download a Java client. Yeah. Yeah. Finally, I just want to talk about this thing that I wrote in our forums, which is about was about a response to if you guys haven't seen it I want to just because we joked about it a little bit but I want to I want to talk about it seriously for a second. The response is something that M.G. Siegler had had written that that daring fireball John Gruber put up on his site and kind of agreed with. And it was about how you know Android users just don't get what's great about iOS and that you know I have a long post on it and I sort of I think that the gist of my post I wasn't defending Android and I wasn't knocking iOS and I wasn't even knocking John and M.G. who I think are smart guys. It's not there is a little bit like personal stuff in with some of the stuff that M.G. wrote because I just think it's a little ridiculous. But it really was about how I see and I've seen this and I actually there's just an article recently I think something like our Android users just cheap. It was about how you can't make as much money on on an Android device as you can with Android users you can with iOS users. And I just think I feel this growing divide this like us versus I mean I know that we have the fan boy stuff but there's this thing where it's like you John Gruber's comment was you either get it or you don't as if like there's this line and it's like you're either on this side of the people who just get it or you're on the other side and you don't get it. And I don't think it's about that. I think that you can get it and there are a lot of variables that follow getting it you know you can look at iOS and say that's beautiful and elegant and that's a Mercedes but I want to drive this Honda anyhow. His argument was like you know it's like a Mercedes owner trying to explain to a Honda owner why the Mercedes is a is a has a better ride or something which is when you hear that out loud. I don't know. To me it sounds insane. He's already decided which is the Mercedes and which is the Honda. It just sounds insane to me like I would never say that to somebody like I and here's the thing I like expensive things I like nice things like I think that the Mercedes there are things about a Mercedes that are nicer than a Honda. But guess what the Mercedes doesn't get as good of gas mileage as a Honda. So some people might look at that and go like just cheap Josh. Yeah I mean but I'm just saying some people might look at and go like yeah the ride is smoother but it's not a good investment for me or there are other things about the Honda that I prefer cars that are roomy and comfortable and some cars have better acceleration. And just it's like it's like this concept of like that you empirically like this is empirically like the classy high end thing and everything else is on the other side of it I think is a is a is a bullshit concept and I think that we need to be wary of when people talk about this stuff. It's fine to talk about your preferences and the things that you like and the things that you that you get and that you don't get but it's I think it's really dangerous to talk about it just it just laying on I think to talk about I think that metaphor is really bad. Well it is a bad metaphor metaphor but I also think that you either get it or you don't thing is bad as well I mean I think that that's a false think you're setting people up to respond to what is essentially a false sentiment you know that there can only be two options on this thing. And that you can't understand the advantages of the other side if you pick one like if I if I pick Android I can't understand the advantages of iOS right and if I pick iOS I can't understand which is the flip side they're not arguing this but when I pick iOS I can't understand the advantages of Android. Now there is an argument there that this that's part of the argument it's that it's that you I mean I think that that's sort of it's insinuated I mean I think definitely the part of the argument is is for sure if you like Android you obviously don't get what's great about it but it's this isn't about Android or iOS. Maybe for some people they don't they don't get what's great but I think especially you know a highly informed person like someone that you know reads the verge someone who follows MG or Gruber on Twitter is you know has knows a lot about both sides and has made an informed decision what is best for them. Right and and and that's what it boils down to it's it's not it's not a black or white thing it's not either or and it's definitely not in what I feel is the insinuation is that like there is like some feeling of of class warfare where with the way that it's talked about you know it isn't it isn't the Mercedes versus the Honda it isn't the Android users don't understand what the iOS users do. I think that's BS and I think it's wrong I think it's wrong headed to talk about these things in absolutes like it hearkens to kind of a 1990s Apple fanboys and it's like yeah I am like a far oppressed minority but I'm I'm the artist right you know it's funny because Apple they're not. Photoshop runs a little bit better on my operating system and I know we've talked about this at length it's kind of this weird phenomenon where that 90s Apple zealotry was like all right you know you are defending some some like core principles that are good ideas against Windows 3.1 which is bad right. Well there's Windows 3.1 but you know there was Windows 95 and 98 and we're definitely still holding on. Those were still not like they took a look they you know Windows got better like Windows 7 is objectively good right. Android is like good and like but the fanboys of these things they're all winning. I just think they're like Apple is like winning. I just think at the end of the day these are I just think Android is winning. I just think there's market share and there's money changing hands but these are products and they should be judged as products and they should be judged on their individual features and not I mean first off this is not this is not politics you know this is not we're not talking about this is not a war. This is not important you know it's not important whether you like Android or iOS and I don't think it is but I think it's important to treat you other I think it's important that you treat and that you think about other people with some degree of respect and I think that that we do a really short walk from. You're this and I'm that to thinking about somebody in a different way and I think that's just a it's not a good place to be. I noticed this seeping into my my thinking of I see somebody with a PC at a coffee shop I kind of instantly assume that they couldn't afford a Mac which is like that's really that's insane. Truly mad I have no idea what that's the thing I'm gonna I'm gonna have to fire you now because that's really it's really easy I'm confessing I'm upset the thing that exists yeah and it shouldn't exist no it's not a we're not you know what good input and you know what people humans means aren't defined by their products and also is like I just think the thing that annoys me most is the idea that you can't get it because like you're buying it is that we're not we're not defined by our product and some people have like a different. Level values like I want to spend this money on a netbook because I want to spend this amount of money on my kids or this amount of money on my car. I just think about it goes back to what I was saying in the post which there's a lot of factors that a lot of factors that and those factors are and you're not a person of taste or or a person of means because you choose right and you know what an iPhone is not a Mercedes and vice versa and a Mercedes and an iPhone aren't like empirically good and things that are cheaper aren't empirically good. Mercedes has made a lot of terrible cars and I'm sure the company and Apple's made a lot of terrible products and there are things about there are things about the iPhone and iOS that's why I have holes in that argument is as on the as there is on the other. That's why it's a particularly terrible metaphor right because it is this assumption will be but the gist is this Mercedes Mercedes makes cars for wealthy people that are refined okay inexpensive and and people buy people who buy Mercedes understand that they're not defined by their products and also is like I want to spend this money on a netbook because I want to spend this amount of money on my kids or this amount of money on my car. People buy people who buy Mercedes understand that the ride in the luxury of Mercedes is valuable and the people who buy a Honda might not understand that this is what he's saying I mean this is the argument that was made the people who are buying the Honda might not understand that even if they're told. That's false like on every level I mean that's in fact in some ways I would argue that maybe the person behind the Honda would be even more acutely aware of the differences between the Mercedes and the Honda right then the person who's in the Mercedes but I just think that that I just think to think about. Products as these as like occupying a certain strata and like these this is what they are and this is what they mean I just think it's it's phony I just think it's not real and I think it makes you think about people in a way that's not that's phony and not real and it was annoying to me when I read it and I agree with those guys all the time it's not like I think that they're bad people that I want to argue with them I don't like I actually do well won't continue an argument with them about this I'm not going to turn it into an ongoing war about what. You know and I know everybody wants that I think everybody thinks that this is like a big deal and maybe M.G. and John think it's a big deal I have a feeling they probably don't have a feeling they probably think this is like people in our industry arguing about things in our industry. But like I'm not going to keep arguing about it I just want to make a point that I think there's some. Flawed thinking in that in that line in that on that track and I just want to talk about it yeah and now I'm done I got it out of my system is over now I'm glad we have forums I'm psyched about it it's you know I really wanted user blogs or editor. I actually was saying I actually saying to Laura today that this is a great argument for what you wanted to do and we didn't get to do we probably will at some point where we have our own kind of siloed blogs as part of the verge that are just kind of like whatever we want to write about or whatever we want to talk about. I was going to put this on on Tumblr originally I thought why not just let our readers like be able to sound off on it and just put it in our forums I mean it's a perfect place for it therefore it's what they're there for any on that note. I love everybody I love John Gruber I love M.G. Gruber is great on the show I have to say he's fine fine guy yeah it's fine no you know adorable child he's a great no he's a great guy and that's the thing that I think that people really love to take this stuff way out of blow it out of proportion on the Internet like people call other people on their shit all the time on the Internet. It's pretty common Gruber does it M.G. does it I'm doing it this is not like uncommon stuff these are just people having you know heated conversations are conversation is a conversation and it's not like we're now in the middle of a conversation. It's like we're now in some battle if I don't think that maybe they do. I have a feeling they don't. I just think that people want to blow it out of proportion to some like big deal and it's not I just wanted to voice my opinion they've voiced their opinion. I'm sure there are plenty of people who felt like I do and I'm sure there's plenty of people who feel like I'm an idiot. You're one of those people and that's just look I'm a Mercedes owner okay that's like you can't understand what I understand I just you know what I think the thing about you know I am infotainment thing about is the most of the people who are like flush leather interiors who are like all things you can get in a Honda by the way. Yeah there's some very luxurious Honda's really nice Honda's makes Acura's. I think the thing about me most of people think I'm just like trying to argue for Android you know like you are no Android's cool like that's exactly the argument. I'm a fan I'm just a fan fan broid. It's just exactly the argument I'm not making. Anyhow let's wrap up. Wonderful. It was a wonderful time here. Two hour. It's a long hour and a half. It's too long trying to let most of this out. Yeah to 15 minutes to 5050 minutes. Yeah. And yeah that's our show for the week. If you want to get touch with us you can email us at podcast the verge. Oh flash crash.com. That's tough. You can leave a comment on the post when it goes up. Why is Joanna like she's like slinking. Oh get away from me woman. Why are you slinking over here. I don't even like. What's happening. I feel like you're giving us dirty look. We talked a ton about the Xyborg. Oh my god so much Xyborg. Anyhow you can leave a comment. I know what she's going to do and I don't want her to do it. You can leave a comment on the post when it goes up or you can find us on Twitter. I'm Josh Witopolsky. The verge is at verge. Neelight is reckless. Paul is future Paul. Joanna is Joanna Stern. Oh I get it. I see what's about to happen. Oh yeah. I see. Anyhow that's it for this week. We'll be back next week obviously with more podcasting goodness. And as always I wish you and yours all the best for the upcoming weekend and week ahead. Rock and roll. Rock and roll. It's my birthday. Oh and happy birthday to Neelight Patel. It's tomorrow. It returns today. So you lied. Well it's the 16th. Forget. Don't wish him a happy birthday. I'm leaving. Don't do it. All right. We done. We're good. Thank you. Thank you for listening. Rock and roll. That was a mess. That was a mess.