 I sometimes miss this version of us. Me too. Epic Games made an interactive Matrix experience to show off its upcoming Unreal Engine 5 at this year's Game Awards. We sat down with the two stars of the demo and the Matrix movies, Kiana Reeves and Carrie-Anne Moss, to talk about how the technology is blurring the line between what's real and virtual, what to expect from the new Matrix Resurrections movie, and a lot more. Wade, can you use Unreal in pornography? No comments. Hi, I'm Thomas Anderson. So this interactive experience that you all shot, it's very different from a lot of things that have been made before. It's using cutting edge technology. I'd love to know, what was the process like of making this? The idea was first proposition to us by Lana, right? And then it was proposition to me doing this presentation, utilizing this new technology from Epic, and that we would be doing a kind of introduction to it, right? What was that like doing that opening that she wrote, and then also afterwards, people don't know if it's the real you or the fake you? The idea of doing something like this, coming from the writer of the Matrix, and then taking this technology and marrying it, and having a kind of, you know, what's real, what isn't real conversation, and what can that be, and what might it turn into, and here's kind of where we're at for this, right? And you're fully virtual in this experience. What is that like seeing a fully digital version of yourself like that? Because you've done games, Mass Effect, but seeing that, is it different? Yeah, because you're never doing you. Right. It's interesting. It's trippy to see myself that way. Keanu, the younger version of you, they actually took footage from the original trilogy. I think they found it in some vault somewhere with Warner Bros. and recreated it, made it modern. What was it like seeing a younger version of yourself like that? Yeah, I mean, I kind of have to take my own kind of like, oh, that doesn't look real or not real, but also just to see the younger version of it, yeah, it's trippy. I have to say, just watching it just now and seeing your face morph from now to then, I think you're even more handsome now. Oh, my gosh. Sorry, I mean, I know, I don't want to take it into that shallow place, but. I don't know if that is shallow. Truthfully, I just. The idea of aesthetics and beauty is not a shallow place. Yeah, yeah, I think. Your likeness could then be used for other things, though, and that's the crazy concept of this, right, is that there could be digital versions of you as a performer that could theoretically be used in ways that are not you acting. Yeah, no, I mean, I think that's part of like what's real, not real, and who's the architect, who's the director of the material, right? Marlon Brando said that with the Dick Donner Superman, right? So he was already thinking about, oh, wow, why, you know, you already videoed me, you already filmed me, you already put in the computer. So, I mean, he was ahead of the game, too. Like right now, you can have your digital IP. Like I know for me in films, I can't be digitally altered without approval, and I did that way back when. Yeah. You know, you're kind of licensing. In a weird way, we're licensing our performances in a way, too, with editing in the first place. Right. But I guess if you're creating it and making that avatar, then do whatever you want. But then you could do multiple projects, Carrie Anne. You could just stay home. You could just stay home. Or perform at a younger age or perform, yeah, when you're retired. Or whenever. I mean, I think that's the whole thing about this kind of world that's becoming more and more real. So you wouldn't need the actual physical experience of making it. It could just be done in a computer. Well, it's puppetry, right? It's computer puppetry. And you could be wherever you want to be. It's interesting. What do you think about like the post-humous aspect of it, like Carrie Fisher in Star Wars, where potentially even after you're gone, right? Like your likeness could be used. Have you thought about like you have that where you have to prove how your likeness is used? Yeah, I mean, I know a couple of years back, my agency, I mean, there's agencies now where they'll capture your digital self to create digital content. And, you know, you could perhaps transfer your likeness to the estate, right? They're already doing that. Right. And there's also an aspect of this where games and movies are melding to a degree, right? And this experience gets at that a little bit. But, I mean, with Unreal, I think part of what Epic is doing is that you can take objects created for a movie and port them over to a game using the same objects and vice versa. That's technology that they're creating. So, I mean, what does that mean for, say, any movie where you could just make a game out of it and it's the same IP, it's the same stuff that you made for the movie? Yeah. Yeah, I guess it's the plasticity of images. I don't know. It depends. I mean, if we're talking from a capitalistic platform, you know, I think it's always going to be portioned and I think it's always going to be sold. So, it's just more things to sell. I mean, I'm sorry, more things to create. I'm sorry, more things to sell. But, I mean, they're also bringing the tool to the user, right? And, you know, you could be able to create your, you'll be able to license perhaps IPs, right? So. Does the idea of like making a playable movie, is that compelling to either of you? Yeah, I guess so. I mean, I guess that's not the ending I wanted. I don't know. You literally can take the pill yourself, right? Yeah. I guess what I love about making movies is the being together, being all together and that human part of it. It's what I love about it. That's what I always loved about The Matrix was that I always felt so, even though people would always assume it was so much of it was green screen and so much of it was special effects and yet that wasn't my experience of doing it. We did everything. You know, I feel like it's the first time in a long time that the real world is almost ahead of our science fiction. I mean, the whole idea of trying to pursue like when can we make it photo real? When can we fool? I mean, all of the deep fake, you know, technologies that are happening. Wow. Yeah, it's like. It hurts the mind. No, no, but it's like it's almost, you know, it's like it's the why, right? We can't. We have to keep the species has to keep creating the species is like, oh, I can do that. Let's keep going to do that. You know, and no one can predict the future. I don't I don't know. I was having dinner at a friend's house. This director and he had some kids and there was like a 13 year old, a 15 year old, 17 year old. And the they hadn't seen the film The Matrix. And so the director is like, well, why don't you just tell them what it's about? So I start to say, well, there's this guy who's in a kind of virtual world and he finds out that there's a real world and he's really questioning what's real and not real. And he really wants to know what's real. And the young girl was like, why? And I was like, what do you mean? She was like, who cares if it's real? And I was like, what? You don't you don't care if it's real. And she was like, no. Isn't that wild? It's awesome. You think it's awesome? I mean, it's awesome. I mean, it's awesome. I mean, this idea of that, you know, so in a way, what you and I are kind of speaking about is kind of like a legacy feeling. We're almost like, oh, your older versions. Just let it go. I know I'm the mom at the kitchen table, like talking about the possibility of like a virtual world for my kids and I'm crying, you know, like that's how it feels for me. But now I just, I don't know, just kind of like sitting around the table and talking. Call me crazy. No, no, but you'll be able to sit around at your table and talking and you just won't. What if it's not a real table? What if I don't know if it's real or not? That's the other question too, which is one of the issues that we're being confronted by very quickly. A famous tech investor said something once that really stuck with me. He said that for most people, the virtual world will be more compelling than their real life. So why would you not strap on a VR headset and be able to be with someone across the world at a virtual casino? Right? Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, yeah, definitely. And so like, what do you, I don't know what the world looks like when we get there, but we're getting there. I mean, it's happening. Can we just not have metaverse be like invented by Facebook? You're not a fan? No, but just the concept of metaverse is like way older than that. It is old. Snow crash. Yeah. It's like a way older. And so for that moment to get to, I'm just like, come on. Do you think it's dystopian, like the way the original Matrix kind of presented all this is like kind of dystopian where tech was headed? Like, do you think the metaverse is everyone's talking about it now? Yeah, because it's, you know, I mean, it's also, you know, it's content creation. It's fine. It's economic creation. Right. Cryptocurrency. Are either of you into cryptocurrency personally? A friend of mine bought some for me a while back. So but you haven't done anything with it. I haven't had to. Just sitting there appreciating. It's just like it's probably good. Just it's just it's they call that hodl just to sit there a little bit. It's called hodl when you just don't touch your crypto, even if it tanks a little bit. You hodl it. Yeah. So you're hodling your crypto. Yeah, I have a little hodl. Did you guys see the Matrix NFT thing that they did for Resurrections just a couple of days ago? They know they made NFTs for the new movie and there were like one hundred thousand of them and the site broke like in the first few hours because there were over three hundred thousand people in the queue. Trying to buy these NFTs for fifty dollars. And so, like when you think about the concept of digital scarcity and things that are, you know, they can't be copied. That are easily reproduced. Well, but they're not the same, right? It's not fake version of you. I wonder what are do we get a cut of that? Oh, no, I don't actually I don't think we're in them. They probably did other people. You have to take that up with the studio. There was a leak of the experience on like the PlayStation server and it got a lot of attention that there was this Matrix experience happening that you guys were in. And I was looking at the Reddit thread where it was posted and everyone was just saying, I want a Matrix video game. I want a modern day, you know, reimagining of the Matrix video game. Well, it's so ridiculous that there isn't one. Would you do one if they came to you and said, I mean, how I mean, aren't there smart people who are going to do that? Aren't there smart people who run these companies? Aren't there supposed to? The fans really want it. So if they came to you and they said, we're going to do a Matrix, it's like, where's the ball? You mean the ball you dropped 15 years ago? So you would do it if they came to you and said, let's do it. Let's do a full proper video game. Would you both do it? Yeah. I mean, we'd have to read the script. I'm sorry. I'll do whatever he does. Anyway, it's a very exciting time. I would love to just kind of talk a little bit about the new movie and hear kind of what drew you back to this iconic franchise so many years later. What was it that got you both? Was it just a phone call from Lana? Was it that simple? For me, it was. Just like an immediate yes. Yeah, it's Lana Wachowski. Yeah. Same thing. Totally. It was exciting. The trailers make it seem like it's a very meta, there's a lot of self-referential stuff going on. It's very funny. It's funny. Yeah. And it feels like a real experience. You go in like this total, from the minute it starts, you're on this journey. And I think it's really fun, really good. Romantique. Very romantic. A lot of love. A lot of love. Great love story. Still some good old fashioned Matrix social, cultural, ideological, commentary propositions. Good action. Good action. Wonderful performances. Yeah. When you look back at what the original Matrix movies were saying about where tech was headed, how does the new movie kind of fit into, is it looking ahead again decades out? Is it more in the now? Is it answering the questions? I don't know. I think the films have always been kind of a tool that you could use. Like you've got the Matrix tool, to think about the world you live in, to think about the world itself. And what are the systems either of control, and then even looking at what love is, community, rebellion, what do we fight for, looking at how do you think about self and selfhood and free will and choice. It gives you a way to consider things, right, and to look at the world. And I think Resurrections is definitely a tool that we can look at today and will probably take us into tomorrow. If you were to think back on the original Matrix backstory and canon, would it look any different with knowledge of like how tech actually turned out in the year 2021? Do you think it was kind of spot on with where we're headed? Yeah, when you say tech, do you mean the idea of a virtual reality that is indistinguishable from reality? Yeah, and computers that are approaching or surpassing actually human level intelligence. Right. I mean, I think even the trilogy gets into artificial intelligence and then identity. And even then kind of was taking this idea of being, I'm going to use archaic term, but being digital into the real world, into flesh. And I think Resurrections continues that technological concept of selfhood and identity for, I'll just call it artificial intelligence or programs. Which is kind of what we're doing even now when we're trying to have, you know, ethics and programs and moral controls and, you know, the basic version of don't hurt the human. These Google and these big tech companies have ethicists, right? Yeah, digital ethicists. Would either of you do like a VR project, especially as these headsets get better? Are you interested in that from like a storytelling perspective? I liked your first answer. It depends on the script, I guess. Right. The story. So I definitely know that I, it's not that I understand that I don't understand. And that's sort of where I'm living, I guess, right now is being curious and also holding like for my personal life, like what I hold sacred, you know, which is the real. Yeah. Keanu, what about you? VR storytelling? Is it is it compelling to you? Um, yeah. Yeah. Do you have a VR headset? Do you use it personally? I do. I don't. I know that any VR technology that I'm using is five years old and lame. I'm sorry. Never used to be lame. It's probably now modernly name lame. But there's so much kind of data collection tools that are in these experiences to help make the product better. It's not interesting. Um, being used for medicine. Of course, these advances are important and great. Do you play video games? No. No, really? No. Even cyberpunk? No. I mean, I've seen demonstrations, but I've never played it. Did you know that in cyberpunk there they were hacking a character? You were the most requested hack to make a character that you could have sex with be you, be your character. Yes. And it got to a point where the game developer said, no, you can't do this because we're not sure if we have permission to do this. But I mean, now that I have you, like, what do you think about that? Oh, my God, it's always nice when it's nice. And, you know, yeah, it was affection. I, on the other hand, say no, thank you. So that's a no from you. No, thank you. Keanu's fine with it. No. Think of how much money is important, right? So you could not even have to be there and people could have digital sex with your digital avatar. What's that? What's it called right now for members only? You could do a whole thing. Oh, my God. And then you get the suit that's probably made in Sweden or some German thing. Oh, my God. And then you got the VR thing. I hope that I do not live to see this. Oh, my God. And then they've got the data on you with your like your arousal metrics. Oh, my gosh. I did not see this conversation. Right. So then you're in the suit with arousal metrics through your members only metaverse X. God help us. That's all I'm going to say. And so then you're like, take everything off. And then how do you feel about the relationships you're in? Right. Great. What is real? What is not? Right. But then you hold that real thing and you're like, oh, I'm so glad we have reality. You're going to be hit up as being like a chief creative officer of some poor, intact company now. Oh, my gosh. You'd be huge. I'll be the ethicist or whatever. Those are my questions. I mean, I feel like we covered a lot of ground. Yeah. Hope that wasn't too painful. No, not at all. Thank you. It was fun. Thank you. Thank you. Who's that? The marketing people. Marketing? I thought we were supposed to have total creative control. Welcome to the matrix.