 Hey, and welcome to the Vergecast for the week of October 15th, 2012. I'm Josh Tapolsky. I'm Paul Miller. I'm Nila Patel. And we're back together again. The core group of Vergecasters. For the very first time. Back again for the very first time, just like you remember us from the future in a dream. Apparently I'm a Cleveland Browns fan. We're here to discuss the week in technology news, technology culture, culture, culture, and functified happenings. And sports. And sports. And this is, you know, nothing's happening this week, next week. And so we have very little to talk about. Some stuff happened this week. But we're excited to be here. We're just happy to be here. What's going on with this right here? We're not taking anything for granted. You know what? In this life and in the next, there's no guarantees. There are no guarantees. So you got to live every day. You got to dance like no one's watching. Sing like no one's listening. And verge cast like no one's listening or watching. Or singing or dancing. Verge cast like no one's singing or dancing. Like no one's singing. And I think that's lessons to live by. Life lessons. Yeah. Wait, Paul, is your mic on? You should say something. He sounds quiet. Hello. The chat people are concerned about the state of Paul's mic. Hello. It may upset you to learn that we've disabled Paul's microphone. Dude, his lack of understanding of weekly events. He's with us. But only to express. Can I say that I have no idea what's been happening this week? You know what's funny is that the nature of our topic list today is that you're going to be fine. You're going to be just great. Yeah. It doesn't. There's a lot of... We believe in you, Paul. Yeah. Thank you. You're going to get through this. You're going to know what's happening. You're going to get through this. And when it's finished, you're going to look back and say, that made me a better man. Yeah. I can't think of any other way to describe it. No, man. Man. Man. Animal. As you would be referred to by the alien animal, a man animal as you'd be referred to by the aliens in Battlefield Earth. Oh, I never watched it. Oh, it's so good. I watched like the start of it. Oh, you should watch all of it. Yeah, I should. Battlefield Earth is a great film. Yes, I'm on Blu-ray. Yes. Or HD DVD, both. Right. Yes. Actually, all right, let's talk. No, I thought. But I can acquire it for you. Let me tell you it's really expensive when every time you want to watch a movie you have to spend $30 to the words Do the words rental mean anything to you? That's one word. Yeah There's the word rentals the word blockbuster mean anything to you in the terms of like a company like that doesn't succeed and have Storm you think I'm sorry. You think that's you live in New York. You think blockbusters the only place you can rent a movie? What are you gonna go to two boots? I mean you that's a pizza place Yeah, but they also rent DVD the East Village. Well, yes, then I yes I would expect you to go to two boots where they rent DVDs, but I want a blu-ray Well, then you should find a place that rents blu-rays. This is New York. You don't think it's a Blockbuster box Just Spokane Washington what Spokane Fredericksburg, Washington Hunger Games Hunger Games Actual area what part of Washington from Eastern Washington? You know, that is a week. What is it called? Can I Washington Kennewick? This is not Kennewick my man This is New York City tons of places you go to Hastings. You could go Yeah, I'd like to see you rent a blue rain. I can awake right now. I run blue rays Mike's video in Racine Racine is a hellhole. So it's kind of like Moving on. It's true Let's talk. Let's talk about you got a lot of really You know what if I don't say it now when I say it. I know this East Coast bias over here. I'm from Pittsburgh. I mean Go ahead. What do you got? All right. So there's a lot going on at the end of October I had noticed there is actually so much happening the end of October that we've been having weekly planning calls to make sure Everybody's ready for what's happening the next couple weeks. I mean, I know it's not these I know these companies don't they're not sitting around worried about us Yeah, but maybe they should stop and and spend at least a little bit of time. We should worry about each other We're only human there flesh and blood doing this thing. And what I think is particularly interesting is Google and Microsoft Seem to be they're in love with going head-to-head. Oh an Apple. No, so do you remember it was? Nokia did their Windows Phone event on the same day that Google and Motorola did an event like in September? Yes That's happening again. Yes now It didn't well, so Microsoft is doing its its its Windows Phone stuff Windows Phone Windows from a on the 29th the 29th and Google is doing an Android event on the 20 and their invitation is The playground is open. Yeah The playground and it looks like Google now. Oh, yeah. Hey, do you think? Gaming thing. No, the playground is open. Is there that's their Nexus 7 tagline. I don't think it is That's what they've been using and then it's play like the Play Store. Is that a riff on the Play Store? Yeah, it's a riff on the Play Store So the ads like the adorable children and the girl in the space man helmet that says the playground is open Oh, that's right. Yeah So, I mean that's their tagline. It's obviously some sort of Nexus related announcement. We have to assume that at the end of October This is this is bothering me. What is that this little like flip I'm getting wings We have to assume what is going on at the end of October. I'm very upset about my hair right now Yeah, sorry people who are just listening to this That it's gonna be a Nexus event. Yeah, I mean we've seen some leaks Maybe it's the this LG Nexus 4 or whatever the calling which now is being leaked The site is not like done a fake review of it. Yeah. Yeah, a Russian site did a review of it already I mean they're there, you know, so we supposedly that's the device. We don't know for sure Oh, he's back LG's back. Um, and it doesn't have a super AMOLED display So now there's that we've been seeing a Sony one. Well the Sony one we don't know the pictures the picture was highly suspicious It was I have hope it would be very large. There was more than one Choice but you know what I think is interesting about that is that I There was a time when there were so many rumors about phones and upgraded Samsung You know galaxy Nexus, you know an HTC thing, you know And it's what's funny is that those companies sort of like we're totally happy To kind of like what a she just did introduce this this well, they did this five inch HTC came out as an HTC product Yeah So it's what's weird is that they're putting out these phones and galaxy Samsung the the galaxy Nexus thing turned out to be the galaxy Premiere which is like the most depressing. What is that? It's slightly it's a phone It's a has a specs with slightly upgraded Galaxy Nexus that runs such it's a galaxy premiere I don't want there's I said the word you said galaxy. Is that a real thing? Is that a rumor? It's a yeah, it's a it's a good the galaxy premiere Yeah, but it's not like a phone that you want if I said to you the Samsung Galaxy Premiere Would you say in your mind? Yeah, that definitely sounds like something I want But it's funny I want like like a multimedia PC would be a great like gateway DVD drive on yeah. Yeah exactly. No, it's got like a CD, but it can play like quick time movies off of the CDs. I Would buy that. Yeah. Yeah in 1997 exactly So yeah, so there's a lot of but there's a lot of then Apple has an event 23rd so there's like just a lot of stuff happening micro. I mean we should just I mean we should try to go through it What should we go through first? Let's see Google. That's you and do Google. Yeah. Okay. So what do we need to say about Google? Oh, well, they also had an announcement today Their earnings another and their Chromebook and the Chromebook. Yeah, which I actually really like the Chromebook. I like it Do the new book did the new hundred dollars? 250 arm based 11.6 inch display, but what I don't understand is I was like, oh man arm base This is gonna get all-day battery and they're listening the battery life. It's 6.5 hours six and a half hours Which is like I don't understand like I actually saw our headline. I tweeted I was like, oh this is gonna be good like probably all-day battery life which is like what you want in a laptop, which is like the dream and Schmitt's dream and And then it's like six and a half hours is like not what like what are these? What is the the error rated at? It's like it's one it's like seven. Yeah or something So if they're rating it at six and a half there, they're boasting about six and a half. It's like ultra thin It's a thinner. No, it's not thinner than the air. I don't think um, I don't understand it Let's find out they're like we skimmed on the battery. I Don't know. It's a real shame because I think that is it like 3g or something? No, I don't think so I mean this thing is like what it should be is a tiny little motherboard thumb processor on it and then a gigantic battery Right, I mean that's what the air is. I mean literally should be like the guts of a phone. Yeah, right Yeah with a huge battery. So yeah, it's 2.5 pounds 0.8 inches thick But it's like you don't you could put a gigantic battery, you know Is like a Chrome OS not as optimized for battery as something like I mean, it looks like a lab It looks like a regular laptop. So it should I mean, I don't know but I I think the current one that is x86 is like Five hours five. So you get an extra hour and a half of battery. That's really not very impressive, right? So that's why I'm wondering if it's an operating system if they're just running all those cores all the time like crazy It's Linux based. Yeah, well like Linux Yeah, the airs are battery life then Windows the airs are Seven hours in the 13 then why why even bother making it just so they can make a smaller one? Well is 250 dollars and it's $250. I mean, that's cool But like, you know that every additional hour battery life is $1,000 But the sir, what are they saying the surface is gonna get the RT which is arm based. It's like it's also like seven I know I think it's more than that. Is it more than that? I think it is What do they say on the buy it now page just click on the ads that are all over our site I'm here appear today. Oh, we're we've got surface ads on our side. I've got I here's a video of Scott Scott low with the with the new I mean that thing looks I mean Apart from the deck that looks exactly like a MacBook Air. It looks like an air. Yeah, it looks exactly like an air Um God, did we mention it in the post? Please tell me we did I can't go through another grouper attack. I can't take My won't make it. What is it made out of something something stolen? They melted down they stole airs and melted them down to make this I doubt they use materials that good Yeah, I doubt it tax backs for the surface what do they got eight hours mixed activity eight hours Hours versus eight hours is is is pretty good. Yeah mixed activity like some of those activities activity definitely sounds like a Like a like something you put on a police report about what people were doing right before they Police album. Yeah Yes, please album I like that mixed activity that is really good. That's a great that is a great album title Don't anybody out there? That's Paul's now taking that one. Yeah, but uh mix so I was I'm really annoyed with my hair situation here I need someone to just hold my hair in place. I need someone to come out here and just hold this part down I call so Michael get down here. No, no, I don't Fine, but he did get up and it's that's frightening and a little bit worrisome. I I Was actually really excited when I saw the announcement But I'm my excitement has been somewhat deflated like the the I would be cool with it If it had I just don't feel I'm not sure what the outstanding feature of this is. I guess the price point 250. Yeah, but like Yeah, I mean, I'm just trying to think like is a Chromebook more useful than the Nexus 7. Yes well, it's easier to type on yes, and It's easier to do email and stuff. I'm assuming you won't have flash. Well, how much how much why wouldn't have flat? How much does the surface never been a single implementation of flash on an ARM processor that has been good well, but this is yeah, and I don't I don't then then They're gonna have some problems How much does the surface are T cost because a lot of a lot of like Chrome apps use flash. Hmm Yeah, the surface RT is 499 without the keyboard at 32 gigs So that's like iPad is 499 16 gig. Mm-hmm There's is 32 gig then then then for a hundred bucks more you get it with the keyboard It's like a bundle well, so and then they and then you can get 64 with keyboard for 699 So the top price is with keyboard 64 gigs is 76 99. What's the top? What's the 64 gig iPad? So if you're back to me shopping yeah, if you're just like a keyboard I get my computer. I don't hate you. Hey, it's a bad idea I I have to have a real keyboard, right? I'm actually getting really fast the iPad screen keyboard I still need a real keyboard and if I'm comparing do I get a Nexus 7 with a Bluetooth keyboard or an iPad with a keyboard or surface a keyboard or do I get the Chromebook, yeah, just for typing all typing all day all all types Here here's here's where the Chrome let's let's let's say 99 by the way, right without without 3g I mean at least if if if I'm a top and I've had with once in the life I mean, let's look at the let's look at the landscape here of new devices So you've got at the low end price wise you've got Kindle HD Kindle Fire HD Nexus 7 at 200 bucks. Yeah, right Nexus 7 is a full-featured Android tablet does everything every other Android tablet does You just laugh But I'm saying like in terms of its its its potential it's great it's a great nothing stopping it from being right It's just that's not how I would choose to sell that problem. I understand that but I'm saying it's a full-featured tablet Yeah, the Kindle is is a full-featured tablet, but it's like a playground The Kindle is I believe is it has missing some very important elements like a great email card I think that and Google Docs and you know Actually that the split for me there is the Kindle is a really great piece of hardware with a very deficient software Yeah, and the Nexus is pretty average hard. It's average hardware with really I mean I like the hardware too, and I like the backing but I mean in terms of the screen and the CPU and stuff It's not like whoa, you know, it's only you know, eight you the one that's 100 It's 200 is is an 8 gig. Yeah, which is very small, right? Very small But we've heard complaints of people saying like it's not enough storage for that But I in in at that what I'm saying at that point I would take the better software on the slightly less good hardware because I think that the Chrome And that's not where the Chromebook doesn't stand in for one of those. I'm trying I'm going I don't think in the price range so then okay, then we have the the suspected alleged coming iPad mini Which people are now rumoring will be 250 bucks. That's my guess. I mean We assume it will be a substantiated guess We assume it will be a near 8 inch 7.8 7.8 inch iPad. Yep, which Presumably will have all of the functionality of the big iPad. Yep, right Okay, then and that's gonna be 250 or so. We're guessing now I'm talking about this is the non smartphone Mm-hmm region then you have a jump What's in between is there anything? Well, there's a 299 iPod touch That's but that's a smaller device. That's a different class. Okay, but it comes in colors now, by the way Yes, I found that out during walls watching uh, it's like wait, is that an iPad Nano? I don't understand how I thought nano and then I was like, no, that's a touch How could you not have known this? Nobody told me so Moving along. Um, the so so yeah, okay, but the touch is in a different class I'm thinking of devices that you might use instead of a traditional laptop Right, isn't there because a lot of people are using iPads instead of traditional laptop and the and look Let's be honest. The big push is like we think that like for for for Maybe 60 70 of users at some point. They're gonna say what do I need this 15 inch MacBook Pro for? What I really need is something thin and light and fits in my bag and does all that stuff and isn't complicated And so I think a lot of people and a lot of people are using iPads like i'm using this for email I'm using it for browsing. I'm using it for Skype like whatever. So then the next one is at actually 399 is the iPad No, 299 is the fireh the bigger fireh. Okay, the fireh is at 299. Yep. The eight in 8.9 It's not out yet. Not out yet. So that's the that's in the gap That yeah, that's in the gap, but that's just like I it's a weird fire HD 7, but I want the one that's two inches bigger Yep, I want to watch movies still has the same deficiencies in software as presumably We haven't we haven't seen it yet. I would assume so. Yeah, then at 399 you've got the iPad 2 Yep, which is last year's model of the iPad, which will be obsolete next year. Yeah, because my Original iPad can't be updated to iOS 6. Mm-hmm I think it actually might have one more year one way because the original iPad had such such a small amount of RAM So there might be a little bit more leeway, but I would I would say you're right When is the next Apple event? Yeah, yeah, yeah, what's your thinking iOS for Whatever Our producer John is pointing out that the original iPad got three updates right? What is the new iPad supposed to come like another hold on hold on? Oh the next new one. So wait So wait the iPad so hold on so we're at 399 iPad 2 Are people just being driven by the iPad 2? The iPad so hold on so we're at 399 iPad 2. Mm-hmm. Are people just being driven crazy in the chat? I just wanted to because a 399 iPad 3 would be insanely great I think that'll probably happen next year. That would well, that's what that's what will replace the Yeah, right once they've come out with the iPad 4. I don't think let's just let's just focus on There have been rumors about a a new version of the iPad 3 With the lightning connector. I think I think we'll actually Tuesday the 23rd Tuesday or Wednesday Tuesday is the 23rd Tuesday I think we'll actually see that it does not make sense for Apple to go into the holidays So you think that an iPad with the old connector and I think they'll just say where it's the same model same specs But we're giving it the lightning connect And we're just we're just updating it like they do with it with a laptop Yeah, I mean, it's just I don't think it makes sense for them to sell a high-end one of their flagship products I think it depends and maybe they'll say listen we have We made a lot of the of the iPad 3 without the lightning and we're gonna sell those for 50 bucks less or something They can put like the like the better Cameras that are on the newest iPhone on it or something like that just to make you feel better myself a little bump Yeah, I don't know anyhow. So okay, so that I'm just trying to figure out where the So then so then you have what about colored backs? So then you have a range Well, I actually do think I actually think it's very possible. So that the little iPad the invitation to the Event which by the way is being held at the California amphitheater in San Jose Which the last event they did there? I think I saw Jackie from ours technica tweet that the last thing they did there was that was in 2004 for the u2 iPod event um So if you two is there if you two is there i'm i'm gonna be pretty freaked out I mean the last time was the foo fighters and this time it's you two. Yeah, they're just progressively older rock Hey, what's great? What's great about the apple vents is I don't have to go see shows anymore Yeah, because they just keep bringing I mean we're like we're two minutes away from like steve miller band What about live tip cooks like I want to bring out a band that I love a lot Steve miller Are there any rumors? That's the beginning of uh, what is the song? What is the song that starts out with like? Synthesizers i'm not deep in steve miller discography. Let's find out. Are there any I let's see what stoners know I know keyboard cover rumors. Seriously. I'm gonna keep making these people are all 10 years old I don't know what do you think about steve miller and I quote these people are all 10 years old, uh Fly like an eagle or fly like an eagle fly like an eagle can someone punch up fly like an eagle for me? I want to hear a little a little bit of the intro somebody who's very intro will trip you out man It's it's awesome. You gotta be of course. You gotta be really really stoned on weed to appreciate it close your ears um because an ipad with a Uh a lightning connector and a keyboard cover option and a little bit better camera I don't think apple's gonna color it back. I don't think apple will do a keyboard cover. Oh, That's not it what else you got there, uh, sorry paul close your ears Why don't you just have this on itunes? Why didn't I just buy this on itunes be steve miller's greatest hits. Oh god. This is the worst thing I feel like that it is finally gonna go what Remember that time we made a joke about a band. We did a lot of here Oh, I see. The first track is called space intro. Yeah. Thank you. Here we go. It's a minute and 15 seconds up You gotta tap me when you're done well, well you just mute this part when you put it up on youtube Just have like a long beep yeah I mean, this is tremendously boring. I think paul's covering his ears. Here we go. Here we go I can still hear everything through the ears light your joints now This is uh, I have to say tremendous. I'm enjoying it All right, fine take it off. Oh, oh, it's just getting good go ahead take it off. You're like should I take it off? All right. Anyhow the point is Okay, I think we've proven our point yeah Tim cook can't wait to bring them out at the next apple event No, but on the invitation for the next apple event, which is by the way held at the california theater amphitheater in san jose Steve miller. No And his band, uh, no, but it's a multi-colored invitation It's got like an apple with all kinds of waves coming off it in different colors. So I think that the ipad mini Will come in different colors. Yes, um, but I think it's gonna be constructed a lot like the ipod touch I mean if you look at the touch you can easily see how like oh, yeah You make the screen bigger you make the battery bigger boom ipad mini. I mean that's it It's five. It's five inch a four inch, uh four inch screen, right? Yeah. Yeah, there's oh you can't look at it Don't look at it. Um So okay 249 then you get 399 299 for the for the fire hd To 399 for the ipad 2. Yep 499 for the ipad and then you hit surface territory, right? Then you've got surface base model no keyboard 499 599 with the keyboard then that's kind of at parity with some of the ipad offerings and then and then like you got stuff Like the so the Motorola zoom. Yeah, and then that goes all the way up. Well, no, you know galaxy note I wouldn't 10. Yeah, I mean I wouldn't buy an android tablet. I'm you know, i'm kind of hoping that this google event They show off some tablet stuff And they they like kind of they'd have to really come correct with some tablet stuff I mean I have to say like I sat in a room with andy rubin in barcelona In february when he was like we're gonna double down on tablets. He didn't say double down did he? Yeah, I did And uh, we talked about this double down is like is like kiss of death double down. It's double speak for We've been doing a bad job. Yeah, it's not like we've got a good thing going and we're oh no It's like we were we really suck at this. No, I think it's I think it's like Double down is um, we wrote a whole story on this by the way. No, I know we did I know but I think but I feel like double down is It's almost like you're trying to convince yourself. It's the it's the emptiest phrase. Yeah Yeah, I like that you're convincing yourself. You're like you have something to work with This is happening. This is going to happen. We're going to make it happen It's like when tim cook was like we're going to double down on on uh secrecy It's like when somebody like like plays you a song they wrote and it's really bad But you find one good thing about it that you like and then you say that to them That's my technique for when people play me their music. That's my technique for listening to steve miller band. Hey Hey, every part of steve miller band is good. Uh, somebody somebody's insulting the steve miller band I kind of say I truly do not like the steve miller band at all. Like I actually dislike the steve miller band No offense. So are you saying you want me to stop calling you the space cowboy, please stop referring to me as uh, We've got this huge range all the way up to about yeah We have a big range at the top of the top And by the way that that pushes into when you get into the seven eight hundred dollar area now You're talking like a laptop price, right? And so the last one I want to say is and then we come full circle the 11 inch air is a thousand dollars and I Think if if you want like a device like to do productivity with it's thin and light and has a long battery life Like the 11 inch air is a pretty spectacular computer, but this is really all they really need to do is make that flip back over Yeah, and make the touchscreen You've got a 250 chromebook you got all these tablets we just talked about And then you've got a thousand dollar macbook air. Yeah, and what's also interesting is that none of the ultrabooks? I don't think i've ever seen a good ultrabook. That's like cheaper than seven. I think the truck so you you know, right? So how much will the what are they pricing? surface X86 devices at do we have any pricing yet on that stuff? I guarantee you they're going to be more expensive well, I'm guessing they're going to be in the in the in the 11 inch air range Right, that would be my maybe a little bit cheaper. Yeah, so if you're a consumer The all these devices don't have I mean these aren't isn't it just like they're all going to survive because everybody's just trying to There has to be like some that are make more sense than others, right? You know, here's the one that I think makes the least sense and I actually think is one of the cooler devices The chromebook. Yeah, like I feel like people don't fundamentally like understand or want what the chromebook offers, right? I think there are things about the chromebook that are really really cool like the fact that it is You know Most of the stuff is stored in the cloud the vast majority is very cool, but Then it presents problems like when you're offline Right because it doesn't have a sec. It's not secondarily storing that stuff on the device The the applications aren't actual application people like they're offline google docs. Yeah. Yeah I believe I believe they do have it on the phone man, but but but here's the thing they they People like what's weird about the chromebook is it's like apps are like living in the browser in some way You can make them as windowed things, but they never really function as they never fully function as standalone things and it's like We've learned that people really love Utilizing applications like this is make sense to them It is they can compartmentalize the work they're doing like i'm in this thing doing this and then i'm in this doing this and like It all makes sense because that's what I think there's probably a good portion of the population that still doesn't really fully graph tabbed browsing No, i'm saying that browsing is like a you're looking for stuff on the internet to a lot of people I mean, they're like I need to open my email, you know, I meet people all the time that they're hardcore mac mail users You know, they don't mess with gmail, even if they have a gmail account They're using mac mail to access it, which is totally fine. That's how you want to live your life um, but you know, I I I think that that's how people think so the chromebook misses this really big important Idea that you want people to be able to go like I have all my apps and I open one and i'm in the app And i'm doing app stuff and then I close that and I open another one Even if they want to present some of it in a different way um I like they're still trying though. I know And I think that for a lot of definitely just slowly getting closer it's it's everything by the way like All I do with my ipad is right and the chromebook would actually be no I mean for a lot of you in a lot of ways the chromebook is an ideal computer for many people, you know And like there are a lot of people who just are living the browser and they don't ever open I mean there there are it's a smaller percentage but people who just are kind of like well Yeah, I got my gmail my calendar right? So, um both adrian and chris Is now verified. I didn't believe them But they use chromebooks as like primary when they don't want to be at work and like connected Ironically when they want to be less connected they use a chromebook I don't understand because they can open docs and write and like have email around but there's no like there's no I am in Their face. I actually really love the last samsung chromebook that came out I think the improvements they made in the os are huge And I think it feels like this kind of weird hybrid of like windows and os 10 and linux and like web A web interface and I and actually think it works really well in some instances and then some in others I'm, just like this isn't useful one of the nice things. I mean, yeah, the The chromebook is still very edge, but like, uh, you got you got somewhere to go. Josh. I gotta get out of here. See you later Clock is ticking go on. Don't feel any pressure. I'm timing you go on uh I mean you really got knocked off the rails here, buddy. I was just like i've been reading this whole year. All I did was just glancing I've been reading a lot about like the presidential debates and there's this famous moment when some some presidential debate It might have been bush or like a bush senior like looked at his watch during a debate and it was a huge thing Clint's head exploded. I don't know bursting Here's what i'm worried about. You've now gone like six months without ambient distraction Mm-hmm in that much of an ambient distraction like completely literally is like the lowest level like I checked the time on my I was like what time is it? And you're like thrown off completely Okay, okay. Can I just can I be a little blunt? Yeah, okay. So like I I know like i'm a special weird case I don't have anything to be distracted by yeah It means I actually notice a lot more If someone's pulls out there because I know I used to be that guy pull out my phone I was scrolling through stuff while I was talking to somebody doing it right now that I don't have that at all to do I really notice people and it to be honest You judge them. Well To be to be really honest why that was a big deal that he did that during a debate because that's rude Yeah, if someone's talking and you look at your watch while they're talking. No, I what I see I I I that is literally rude Of objection I object well that google you are george bush senior objection Like like like a like manners guide on like how to be a polite conversation It would say do not I can't look at what time it is while i'm talking wait until he's talking That's true. I want to know what and when am I supposed to check? If I need to know what time it is right now Mm-hmm, because I you know, maybe I have a meeting you should check while you're talking actually We just wasted we just wasted five Does that seem like it's helpful to you because if you're looking at I know you're gonna make a point But we don't have any time. I'm so sorry Well, it's too late for paul to be saying this we should probably move on paul's wasting our time by it Wasn't like I did this I wasn't like That's what you know what wrap it up that's how it felt Let's go. All right. I don't have all night. Anyways chromebook is a total edge thing. I don't think it's definitely mainstream yet Yeah, but at least it's only trying one thing and like like this is like krypton windows 8 Is trying go on two things. Yeah, you know, uh, so windows 8 even Well, hold on that's already get to I want to get to that so they've got office in the regular windows interface And then they've got okay, but metro interface and that is two things. This is what I want to get to it's just office You can't the windows rt machine and we actually wrote sean did a great article about this where it was like basically customer service reps Trying to figure out like at microsoft stores Yeah, and microsoft's trying to figure out how to explain to people the difference between rt and windows 8 machines like pro whatever they're calling them pro So now I got this curl. What is happening? What is how do I even deal with this? You're really making me feel self-conscious that you're checking your rub it up um, so so They yes. Thank you. They have this. Um, you want to borrow the watch they have this You don't wear a watch you're like you've no internet you have a phone that barely works And you don't think it's important to know what time it is It's not must be wonderful to live your life Time is the art of surfing just on a it's not a relaxation canoe through life Surfing on a relaxation canoe through life. All right, um Microsoft store employees. Well, so so yeah, so they're trying to explain the difference between rt and eight but like the the the raw facts are rt Runs for office apps, right? Yeah, and then it you can't write for For windows like desktop environment. It's got an internet explorer in the office apps in the windows Environment and then a file explorer and all of your control panels and you know, whatever else would be there And and that's that's all you can do on the rt device in that environment Just a user interface standpoint if you are a user interface guru and trying to make things intuitive through user You have two interface paradigms two completely paradigms, but the weird thing is that the one paradigm Only exists for five apps, right? Yeah, okay And then and then you've this other so so what i'm saying is like how does microsoft say to consumers? Don't buy the ipad they have to say like our tablet is better than that tablet Like the surface has to be taken at the surface rt that they're releasing on What day is it the 26th? Yeah, is that the is that the day it's like goes on sale? Yeah that tablet That tablet has to be a more compelling Better experience as a tablet not as windows To those users right with this backstop of office. I mean that's really the thing Yeah, but like i'm sorry Have you ever met in your life that are like? I gotta have office a lot a lot of people a lot of people a lot of people Yeah, that's a lot of people Um, but I okay I have no that's their whole selling point but that's it but that is it that's their selling point They're selling like it's like it's like we're a tablet plus we have office Yeah, but what's ridiculous about that is you're saying our best most important apps like The killer apps for this the killer apps We couldn't do in metro, but don't don't don't worry. We're gonna have a bunch of great apps in metro Yeah, like somebody else will create a killer app Well, if you couldn't create a killer app in your own operating system, how's anybody else? That is truly the an odd thing, right? That you would think like, all right, cool. You're gonna do office. You've made new awesome tablet optimized They do everything office does but they're made for the tablet environment. No They're on windows. Look at like on the windows Look at garage band on ios and then look at all the other ios like multi-track audio Suites like it is incredible and there are a lot of that are kind of comparable to garage band Apple didn't make any like special little tricks so its own audio thing could be better Everybody can you're saying you're saying great apps are possible right for at for first party and for a third party developer can make a An app that is almost exactly as good as an apple. That's why I think that's why I think what would be What would be kind of crazy is if like the 599 surface was also like a windows computer, right? And you're like, yeah, you want to run a windows app go ahead But like you don't have you got all this tablet stuff going on. Well, so here's not but that isn't the proposition for you Here's the thing about like I want a thing that's portable and light and has all day battery life and I can do x y and z with and that x y and z like They're gonna be they're looking at the ipad. They're looking at the surface. They're looking I mean, are they looking at the nexus? Are they looking at a chromebook? I don't know. Yeah, I don't know but like at some point there's got to be some Um, but decision making and I think the reason we're comparing all these things is all of these things can do x y and z Yeah, all those things well can make a powerpoint You can do it. It's like how do you want to go about it? Well, you can make a powerpoint presentation in in google docs and whatever kind of weird or on the ipad You could do a powerpoint presentation in keynote, right? They all have right abilities to do all of these things. It's just how do you want to go about it? and Chromebook is one of the most bizarre ways but at least there's all they only have one But I guess what i'm asking is like as on the on the precipice of the surface being released to the world Which by the way, they sold they said they sold out of their We don't know what that number means. They might have only had a thousand available. Yeah. Um, I'm sure it was a higher number than that. Well, there are reports where they're making like three to five million I think they sold out of three to five million. I think there was a wave I think they it's like the iphone, right? They're selling I mean microsoft can sell hardware, you know, they they sold connect is like the fastest selling right? So here's the thing about the surface. Um Microsoft just had a bunch of people out To redmond. It was like night. I mean david was there. Everyone out there. Um, you know, everybody was there Um, all the folks were there and you know, so everybody ran a piece of microsoft's like tour You know, they had stephen sennofsky and they had um the other guy panay pakar. Uh, I hung with stephen Yeah recently And you know, they did all this stuff all this. Uh, Well, they did all this stuff they showed me how they built it they were like it's so strong it's made of magnesium We've glued skateboard wheels on the bottom of one like when skating through the lab like all this stuff that they did They put someone on it. Yeah, there's pictures of sennofsky right when he tweeted it the next day. I missed that uh they went through this weird thing where they Uh, they kind of constant I read a bunch of these reports. Um But they they had this constant Kind of background of we're competing with the ipad directly, but we don't want to say it Too much, right? And you know, they had this big part where they are explaining how the screen Is better than the ipad screen even though it's only 13 66 by 768 Because how they use sub pixel rendering and like they brought out like a mathematician To explain like all this crazy stuff a white lab coat. Yeah Pretty much like he had like crazy hair and he had a one of those long pointers and it was yeah pretty much a chalkboard from like a 50s You know, it's like, you know, they had The name has some like like nodular transformation. It's like some crazy name like it means nothing um And so, you know the one of the most interesting take that I read was uh, matt p. Cannon in bus feed He was a great writer and he was like, this is great It was really interesting to see how much they care and believe But there is an air of like quiet desperation here That this has to work because if it doesn't and people don't believe that this is the future of windows Like microsoft becomes irrelevant and all of this stuff that they're doing. Yeah Um all this, you know the stuff with the surface the the uh the stuff with the phone Even the stuff with the xbox like if it doesn't all work the way they think it's going to work in a way They're kind of insisting that it works. Yeah, uh, then things begin to fall apart very rapidly for them. Yeah And I think that's actually And when you look at the big scheme of things, I think it's actually very telling that You know, they're driving It seems like they're in the driver's seat with the phones, right? They appear to have insisted to nokia and to hgc. They do these crazy colors They do the chassis requirements all the stuff with the phones. They're in the driver's seat in the software for sure They're building their own tablet because they don't trust anyone else to make a tablet They now they're claiming which I think is insane that they started decide they decided to build the surface three years ago before the ipad ever came out which is like That is a lie. I just don't believe you like that didn't happen. They've always been interested in tablets I mean what the idea that they had to build an integrated tablet is A lie is that they've always had an interest in touch No, I agree the natural user interface they've been and bill gates has been talking about natural user interface for the whole time I mean, I think Microsoft is proof positive that they are but you know deeply invested in that rnd and and actual products I mean look, you know, they were working on the courier, but so You know what? I actually but here's the thing that here's what's interesting But the only place they may have had some kind of the I mean if the courier was at any point a conversation They had to have talked about the product that they killed and then two of their executives left I don't know man. Well, but they had to have had least had conversations But what's interesting to me might manufacture but what's interesting to me is that the wide swath of the middle of the market for them? They're not taking control of right so the pc market. Yeah, they are saying what here's our software windows 8 Right like go make some ultrabooks see what happens Yeah We're gonna focus our efforts on tablets and on phones because this is where we don't trust you samsung Right. This is where we don't trust you lenovo, right? You can have this stuff Yeah, and I think that is fascinating like if you are if you want to if you want to believe that microsoft is a little Bit desperate to be relevant. It is amazing to me that that desperation has not Carried over into the products that they are most famous for which is pcs and I that's that's that's that's that But that's the market that's declining Right, but it's it's the market shrinking market. This is what we're talking about. This is that whole range of products, right? What are you going to replace your pc with? Is it a more limited? Use is what you're gonna replace your pc with and the service pro but they're doing that This is the surface pro is like we're giving you the best of the pc world And do your windows stuff on it, right? No, we're having a heated agreement, right? That'll be their macbook air right, right this is you know, um uh Months ago over the summer when I went to vizio and I was like why are your computers so expensive because that and they're like Look, there is cheap pcs and then there's apple And in the middle, it's like there's no one right and we're gonna try to Don't work. How's that working out for vizio? It didn't work for them But I don't think people are holding off on because I think that whole middle that that big middle where people want to spend 700 That's what's being eaten by the tablet and that's where microsoft has to be but I just think it's amazing that they're like You know, we saw what was this windows apc. We saw it was like the acer loaded with crap Where already you mean the the one that we had that we did the preview of yeah, but then it was detachable The vivo tab. No, that wasn't yeah something like that. No. Yeah the you in the office. Yeah the acer The one that we the david ran it already had crapware on it. No, that wasn't final software I don't know, but we i've definitely seen ads. I used a device that was an x86 That was I believe it's the acer and I can't remember the name of it right now in the office And I was like this is I get this. Yeah, this is like windows That's not that's not what i'm talking about during all the time that I don't want to be doing windows stuff when I want To be like using a tablet. This is like a tablet right and that's great Like you've got a full computer That you never have to look at. Mm-hmm And then you've got a tablet Yeah The problem with windows rt and this is the thing that i'm confused about and I think people will be confused about is that it Is not that thing. Yeah, it is just five windows applications and a tablet, right? That's like the new three screens in the cloud five applications and a tablet is the new three screens in the cloud It's like I just I just think that's really difficult and troubling and weird and like what microsoft should have strived to do was to say We're gonna have some crazy like robust arm cpu here that does windows Right and you can write for windows if you want and you can you know take we have a you know, whatever I don't know how you we will recompile for your apps from like x86 That's not just a recompiler, but you know what I mean? Yeah, and say like make pigeon for you know, whatever the app is i'm throwing pigeon out because it's one that I use but um, You know go and create adobe go make The new version for the new windows on the new platform and we can price these at 500 bucks and sell them like hotcakes I think they should obviously we've had this conversation a million times, but I I kind of feel like I think tablet operating systems Uh, I don't know if you and whatever, um, I feel like tablet operating systems. I think a lot of people like them Because they're better than desktop operating. Well, they're they're simpler. They're simpler. They're more straightforward They're so straight forward. Have you used have you used windows 8 the tablet interface a little bit? It's it's it's good I mean, there's like one button on the whole thing that doesn't go to the internet and because it launches some windows app That's true. But but it is is actually like it is a good tablet interface. It is is good but what i'm scared is uh, uh, Microsoft looked at the landscape and like Uh, the ipad's the best long jumper and android's not a very good long jumper. So like well, let's be the middle long jumper Like we don't want to make the we don't want to go. What does the long jump represent like the making the best tablet? Microsoft was scared to make the best tablet because they wanted they didn't want to abandon users Yeah, but the funny thing is that they needed to make the best tablet anyhow I know it doesn't matter and it doesn't matter if you if it's like you say to people in the store like They're like it's a windows computer, but it's also a tablet and you're and you're like, well actually it's not it looks like windows In one part of it, but that's just for these five apps and the rest is like you got to get the tablet stuff So you're gonna be in the tablet environment, right? I just think if we've learned anything from the past You know since the tablet tablet PC era all up till now people don't buy tablets because of the form factor Usually people buy tablets because they run iOS Right. Yeah, and actually I think that's what's most interesting to me about this whole conversation about the entire landscape is The stuff like the galaxy note and the Motorola zoom right that is not in this conversation No, and it hasn't I mean, what's the note the note is a big phone. Yeah, I mean, I think the note Don't you something that's really cool. I mean, you know, then I know the note phone is its own thing, which is He doesn't mean that he doesn't mean the tab. Yeah, the tab I mean a big big expensive Android tablets have they have failed in the marketplace Yeah, no one has been able to say why I would want a big expensive Android tablet You can't tell me why I would want to spend five or six hundred dollars on an Android tablet If you can I'm all ears, right, but nobody can Freaking do it Well, I just played around with like a Sony I always get whatever it comes to edge So how I always end up swearing about Android like a Sony Intel tablet with like a pressure sensitive pen right and Their painting app their flagship app that uses their pen There's a Windows app So you've got Metro and you can swipe around with your finger or the pen. That's great. What is this on what on Sony's? Yeah, new tablets or whatever. They're like they've got a convertible and stuff like that the duo sense 11 You tap the icon that is there Yeah, it opens windows It opens a Windows app that you draw with with your stylus and then like, you know The other demo apps that I could use that don't use the internet. There's like a air hockey game More for Windows like for whatever we call it down Metro Metro. I mean, it's called the modern you know They're just gonna go with Windows 8 it's like laggy the air hockey game is ultra laggy like The air hockey I don't know it's just air hockey but like It's it's worse than some of the first gen iOS apps I remember one of the first games I ever got for iOS was air hockey and it played better than this You know, yeah Metro air hockey app. Well, I mean and like sure maybe that developer sucks at it, but it's like I don't know. I I Think Windows 8 is is I Windows 8 is gonna be okay and it's gonna get average reviews and average adoption But is not gonna stop this downward trend of PC sales and it is it's gonna be the Windows phone of tablets I think well no cuz there's well Windows phone has to compete with the other two This phone has to compete with two major players. Mm-hmm in the tablet with the tablet There's only the iPad and I think the Windows they can pull off Android for this at all I think they can pull off a lot of those enterprise customers. I think for consumers It's gonna be the enterprise is no problem because they're just gonna say it's Windows It's Windows and just great use your Windows apps and though it's just you know faster and cleaner and simpler and right That's what that's what the Windows environment is there for right? It's not for it's not really for consumers But I think consumers are looking like am I sticking around with Windows or can I do everything I need to do on an iPad? Corporation I think I the play 86 that's what he's talking about x86. They're not gonna buy our teas, right? They're not gonna buy our two window our Windows RT tablets It doesn't make any sense because because they can't do what they can't take their management software they use for their for their You know shipping schedules if you're buying and I'm inventing this They ship it's a company that it's a company that that makes It's a company that makes handsome pallets pal for shipping. Yeah, and they ship they have to ship them Do they like the manufacturer like And then another for figuring out what pallets the pallets go on pal and pal logistics. Yeah double pal just pal gisticks Yeah, yeah, you should start that app pal just a new Windows Store that that app that they developed to manage their pal Gistics probably runs on XP. No, it runs Windows 8 doesn't help you at all. And by the way Windows 8 Touchscreen stuff like in operating system is is like like an inch better than Windows 7 Like it is barely barely better. Oh, yeah, but you put that is a stopgap You cannot judge that's not fair to judge that. Okay, okay fine The new Sony's right but I'm saying but the the touchscreen stuff and the desktop and Windows 8 right that is definitely Windows 9 will it'll be gone but I'm just Clear to me. Yeah, it's blinding the obvious Saying They're gonna limp to Windows 9. Yeah. Yeah And by the time Windows 9 comes around like the air will be an iPad. Yeah Wow, good wrap your head around that Okay, we got to move on from this I don't know what we're talking about at all we're just yeah No, but I do think it's now that we know more about the surface I think it's like I'm just trying to figure out how it fits in the market Like I'm trying to figure out where who the service is for I think you know having having seen it having read what David wrote You know, I think that it's a really interesting piece of hardware. I think they have some really good ideas I think Windows 8 has some amazing ideas in the Metro or the modern UI interface I think it has zero amazing ideas from what I've seen in the desktop interface. Yeah, I think it's just Slightly different close buttons and you know, we've seen it on devices I know what it you know, we saw it on this Acer you get a feel for what it's like I think you can you can live in that tile environment But but it has to be as good as if not better than then the what the iPad offers Yeah, and so to win the desktop isn't or today the s that's not might be dying Yeah, but there's still a lot of room for ideas and Apple is growing Their ideas are very incremental at this point. I mean, no, no, but they're they're sales like Apple's Trend up while the industry And you know, there's clearly room for somebody to do better stuff in the desktop Even if we are moving to tablets one and as you see and what you see is like Apple's doing their own version of the tiles Right. That's the lot. That's launchpad and the way folders work in launchpad and The notification center. I mean they're bringing iOS they're doing what Windows 8 is doing. Yeah They're doing in a much more subtle way. Yeah, it's like a little bit here a little bit here Desktop, yeah, and we're incrementally doing and you're still your basic operating system hasn't really fundamentally changed me what changed between mountain lion and You know, what was the first version of OS 10 a lot changed Tiger obviously online and tiger a lot a lot. I like a lot but they're not unrecognizable There's no part of it. That's unrecognizable. It's relentless iteration I mean, you know, you're not looking at the launchpad even and going like what is this? Yeah, it still looks like a grid of but it's also a grid of I owe of OS 10 icons, right? It looks like a different folder All right, you know full screen apps are just like the same apps bigger with a launchpad is a ridiculous I don't know anybody is yeah, I only use it to delete apps that I've been There's three stories. Yeah, we have limited time. We actually are over time right now, but we started a little bit late So let's try to let's try to do this right? So you get your pick. Yep We can talk about SoftBank buying sprint and sprint buying clear wire, which is boring. I'm gonna veto that We can talk about boxy TV or we talk about reddit reddit Everyone's talking about it I'm gonna let you two fight it out or you talk about both. Mm-hmm. Do you know what's going on with reddit? You told me a little bit Josh did I think no tell explain to people your understanding of the reddit situation So what reddit just gonna look like my I understand With reddit you submit a story. Oh gosh to the reddit and then Stories in common. Oh, you only have the half of the story. Let's let's you're describing the half the second half of the story No, that's how reddit works. You submit. Yes, but you're edging it. Okay, go ahead That was the story. That's not the story The bigger story the bigger story. There's some sort of censorship. Yes Adrian Chen from Gawker Road baseball. It's not it's not I really actually it is the piece Saying Adrian Chen from Gawker is a little bit inside baseball since he's a guy who writes in our industry and nobody you know People reading don't really care a guy a writer from Gawker wrote a piece about some of the some of the more questionable and One person in particularly one person Well, but he wrote about in the kind of the sphere of these kind of questionable subreddits that exist He wrote about a one of the guys who was kind of like kind of led them He was the you know, the creator the moderator the champion. Yeah violent acres Is that his name violent acres violent acres? Is that actually how it's pronounced? I didn't really even ever it is He's a guy Who's like a 45? I mean he exposed his identity. That's the gist of the story. His goal was to write a story I personally like I understand some of the outrage about this The story was I think the story is really interesting has a lot of really important stuff in it But I think there's a part where it's like hey We're exposing this guy and like here's what this nasty messed up redditor looks like and where he works Yeah, kind of like that's like the tabloid takeaway. So Reddit Moderators, I don't think reddit itself has this now. So here's reddit moderators have created like they have a a a rule that that they don't write they don't like their redditors be they think Anonymity is important that people should be allowed to go on reddit and do what they do and not be exposed So that somebody post a link exposing somebody's yeah, so this is the key This is the there is reddit policy and reddit policy pretty much only says reddit corporate policy reddit The terms of service for reddit say you cannot expose other people's personal information on reddit On reddit. Yep, but it has no content policy It doesn't and it doesn't say you can't link to things exposing people's identity Well, yeah But I mean so that's like the law of reddit right like reddit has a law and that's it And it's a reddit does not have a law that says you can't post jailbait pictures of girls, right? And it doesn't have a law that says you can't post creep shots. The the big subreddit was people take Pictures of women on the street without their knowing that are like sexy pictures and right so then there now there is so that The moderator say well our only our highest law is a protection of anonymity Mm-hmm. So you published our guys personal information you said who he is what his name is? So we're gonna ban Gawker. So they said this is the moderator They said they said that like the key moderators of reddit said we're going to ban all links out to Gawker sites full stop Yep, okay Then what we discovered Which was very we wrote a story so we wrote a story about what was going on and we actually wrote us which is technology Culture which is totally called technology culture, which is really interesting that reddits having this big battle about you know What they'll tolerate and and oh, it's so hard. Let me just bet before I say this part. So reddit is like Supposed to be this community that stands for like if there's anything they're going to fight against It's going to be censorship, right if there's anything that the creep shots of subreddit Represents it is the lack of censorship. Yeah, it is the it was the the most you know Look, it's dark and it's maybe you don't like it and maybe in some places it's not even legal But it is saying we're entitled to express ourselves in any way we want We have a place to do it and we're not going to be censored and we don't approve We don't allow censorship here, you know, I think like short of breaking the law. They're like, we're not we're not gonna have censorship So they censored an entire site from theirs from their service for a single article Right, which is like incredible bit of hypocrisy I mean the most insane to me like you stand for anonymity and like freedom from censorship by and by censoring something, you know So what was interesting is we wrote a story about that about? Look reddits, you know, their moderators are having are grappling with some big issues users are upset You know readers are upset The press is upset. You know, these moderators are pissed. We wrote a story about that somebody a Redditor not a moderator just a regular user of the service posted the story to technology Where you would think hey other people might want to read this story about reddit. It's in the it's in the news That post got delisted by the water was on its way up. It was on its way It was being up voters that you know a bunch of votes delisted by moderators Which essentially means like banned and the user who submitted it got banned which is insane because it's like, okay So so you're banning this on the on the basis that we are talking about The thing that you're doing which is like the craziest form of censorship That exists. I mean that is like I don't want you to say the things you're saying So I'm going to remove it like that is just pure censorship, you know, like I don't like what you're saying essentially and Yeah, I mean there it's a it's a and then we Then we wrote a third article Yeah Talking to some of the ex users and moderators who'd been who were critical of reddit and then they got themselves banned Right and they talked to TC into Addie here at the article and then they started getting death threats for talking Yeah, so it's just this it's I didn't hear about that last thing. Yeah, that's it. That's a new one But yeah, that's that's just the last couple what we've been talking about in the in the office And in just in general is like, you know, you've got reddit the reddit where the president where AMA and and and and they're going on this, you know, Alexis a handy and went on this bus tour you know who's a great guy and like I think has very Like altruistic great ideas and wants to like make the world a better place Goes on this like political bus tour kind of trying to raise political awareness and really thinks I think he really thinks that reddit can Be like a vehicle for raising political awareness and raising issues You know, they were instrumental in the SOPA stuff I think they really like showed that the internet can be a force for change all this like very lofty political stuff And then it's like oh, but actually it's like kind of 4chan being run by like 4chan I think you know and it's like they there's like no one steering the ship like like there's these two like these very lofty political and and and and social ideals and then like Guys who are like, I don't think they're different. Well, I mean, you know, here's the thing There are there are some differences. No, I there aren't in this truly important way, which is reddit The thing about reddit is that they were like we're democracy right you can do anything here, right? We have some code of conduct some big set of laws you have to follow but anything you want to do we're all about expression and people existing and reddit will develop its own norms and there's like reddit has 29 employees and like 82 million users, right and we we're not gonna impose this top-down control Yeah, we're gonna give the people of reddit control We'll take from the moderators and let them have the control and build their own set of norms and the overwhelming truth about that Is most of those people are dudes like that's just who they are young young do your young dude, right? And they're not checked by Society right they've been allowed to create their own society Right on vision right and so the things that are important to them to important to young dudes like It's a fresh shot. It's creep shot. Yeah, right they've been also and also and also those those same young dudes And by the way, I think reddit has a lot to offer to the world I don't think this is the entirety of it, but that's what I'm saying You're saying when you build this I agree, but it's it there's a top end There's the Alexis or Hanian part of it, which is here's the best of our society right? Here's what now we have the idea of governments The idea of governments and laws is that you try to impart some overall like mode of operation Right you try to say like this is what we stand for and what we don't and you're not gonna give every little detail about Everything and I think that like a lot of our political Battles in our current government in the real world right are about do we have too many laws or not enough? Like when do we get just right? Are we over regulating are we under regulating like that sort of thing? but I think that like in this case and by the way, one of the one of the Actual employees already who was it that gave us a statement or made a statement right the job was it Eric? Was he the one who said that that we won't tolerate censorship? Is that yeah So they actually say really really interesting reddit needs to learn the difference between legitimate journalism and doxxing Which is the reddit slang for outing somebody's identity, right? And you know, but I think that's a real it's a really interesting It's a really interesting you can unpack that lots of ways the most interesting way to me to unpack It is that reddit internally Developed slang for outing somebody's identity and they made it a negative community norm You know why because they read it people do that shit to themselves all the time, right? They are like we don't like they doxxing. We're gonna doxx you they doxx people, right? That's why it's the highest well doxxing is to me Doxxing the whole concept of it is like outing your end and outing someone's anonymity is like not something that is a journalistic practice Right, like like you should you guys should know reddit should know like the New York Times isn't hit pounding the pavement to like out People's identities you guys I know doxxing is a term from anonymous, but it's a term that's now used on reddit By its I mean by its leadership point is the problem I think I think the the core of your argument is right doxxing is not a thing that Journalists do as part of their profession like we're like there's no point where we're like, how can we out this guy? You know, it's like in the course of a story developing it may turn out that you have to or need to or want to identify somebody by name Which is very rare where you when you're like dealing with I mean, I think that what Adrian Chen was doing is had a very real serious journalistic component to it and I think it had a component of tabloid kind of outing of someone and I think Like there's one part that I really can get behind there's one part I don't get behind right? I think the exploration of well, so of this but I understand it No, actually, I understand it completely because if you are a person and this is like again This is reddit in these particularly gross parts of reddit being run by dudes It's you know what the core part of your identity is. It's your face So if you're running around objectifying women right and posting pictures of them that identify them so that other men Can like say the worst nastiest shit about them on the internet? Yeah, then you you'd lose the ability to say my identity. I think you're you know, you're You're using you're using anonymity as a as a shield against repercussions Right, so you don't want people to know you're doing bad things. You're anonymous That's why anonymous is like really great and really awful So this is like a business this is this is just growing up for reddit and this will I I mean Well, I think this is a bit of a non-story. Although, you know, you guys are revealing some good stuff, but Thank you is that This will self adjust like, you know dig used to be the big thing and the dig started to look like it was a little Too controlled top right so people let's go to reddit where we have real freedom, right? I think some of the dangers with reddit and I you know, I I can you talk to the mic? I don't really like what happened with like like So and and Pippa was some of the stuff you supported so but you're so I didn't like the way that It did the internet ganged up on it the internet ganged up in a way that was very it was a mob mentality Yeah, I agree and I think reddit has a tendency towards mob mentality and I think well But reddit reddit is but there are there can be good mobs. They're kids But there are protests and angry people in a group Bob deep so for a reason yes Bobby No, the for a reason that is like actually useful. Well, and that's what I was saying. It's just like yes there Yeah the same sort of Okay, but there can be bad mobs Usually bad right and so you need to be aware right that you're at a place where mobs can form Sometimes those mobs won't be good, right? And I think the thing and then this is just I mean, here's the thing if you have a unique Handle that you use you have an identity Yeah, and you're an idiot if you think nobody can find you, right? That's why people are anonymous Right on for change if you want to be anonymous Here's the thing about this guy you want to be anonymous be anonymous There was a way for him to post you whatever he wanted with no connection to his unless you like are literally hacking Which is you know, which would be essentially illegal which which Adrian did not do He just went and found this guy's information which is available Right and and as part of a story, but I think it's like, you know The core of this is was the was the Gawker article right? Was it wrong? That's not the question. The question is Can reddit moderators be trusted to know the difference between something like journalism and doxxing? Right, and it sounds like at this point I can't which is a huge problem for reddit as a community because as reddit grows up and and and people Think about reddit as a thing a real thing not just like not just like a 4chan 2, right? You know, well, let me just I mean the comparisons for me these comparisons are so like obvious is the wrong word there they're blindingly clear it's Reddit built itself a government and they built itself a government with like 14 year olds in charge right and the 14 year olds don't know the difference between journalism and doxxing and even if you're a 50 year old and you're somehow given If you took a random person off the streets of New York and said you're a federal judge Here's 20 obscenity cases for you to decide we wouldn't be confident about their ability to do it in a consistent or meaningful way Right because that's not the that's not how we do that at all and it's the thing to me about reddit is when you build a community of Like people who are who love juvenile behavior, you know where the highest thing is to like make somebody laugh with a gif It's like what you have built as a frat house and like over and over and over again Like we were like wow what happens in frat houses is gross not good Right, and if we expose all poisoning if you open it rape the word but chugging I do know what I do know that it's I love that What's funny is that when you take the frat bros out of the frat house and you like Frat house is lame They stop doing those things because they're surrounded by norms that are meaningful Well, here's the thing anonymity and and and Laura and I have had a lot of talks about this and we've collectively as a site Had a lot of talks about anonymity online because you know, we have a community that we have to like moderate, right? And it's the same thing. I actually think anonymity is Very important. I think there are many reasons Legitimate important reasons why anonymity should exist, you know I am I'm completely at odds with Facebook's belief that you know There you have one true identity and that is your identity on the internet and off the internet Like I don't think that's true. There are there are there are You know in small ways and in big ways We are anonymous or different people all the time and I think that it's really important on the internet for anonymity to exist I think that It's also really important to identify when anonymity is being used as a destructive Negative force when it's being used to do bad stuff like bad things exist Like we don't live in a world where I mean we have all agreed But we don't have a right to anonymity to murder people No, exactly like like you're not like well I got away with murder because nobody knew who who committed the murder like and I don't committed I have a right to anonymity. So you can't find me like you can't you're not allowed to use my cops are allowed to use my Claiming the crime. Yeah cops keep trying to identify me through the hair at the scene of the crime using my DNA How dare they like no that doesn't work like murdered somebody you're right You're gonna and so so we've decided as a society and you know, whether you like it or not. Mm-hmm You know, there are rules in this society and we are legal Society that if you write a diatribe that supports Marxism That based on your DNA that you left on the piece of paper that you handing out in pamphlets around town We're not gonna try to fight you, you know, that's right. No, no, I think that's a great point My you don't put fine DNA If there's a strand of your hair on your Marxist, right? Manifesto, right? No one's going to come and like break down your door Like that's actually one of the great things about at least you know in America to Neil I's point Reddit made its own government. It's it's not governed by a Bulletproof Constitution, right? It's governed by 14 years doesn't have a constant and they can do whatever they want They mean out each other they can avoid out eating It doesn't have a constitution and and reddit moderators They can do they can they do have this freedom to make reddit horrible and then someone will start another site and they'll go That's like everybody will go to nine gag I think that's right They'll go to nine guy and you know what have fun at nine guy but like if you if you believe that reddit that a type of site like reddit can be a force for like funny things and Fascinating things and amazing conversations and amazing. Yeah and political movements either way then you have Like that or not then someone has to say like no, no I'm saying the users of that site have to use it but the users can't make it that way themselves Yeah, they can I mean they can try but typically no, but typically laws but laws aren't invented by mobs laws are not come up with an end and end and and and Fine-tuned by mom, right? But they are they are like movements are social movements are can be moved one way or another by mobs But like lawmakers make laws sure but at least so far reddit has done well with this lawless thing and it's trended up and it's Trended pretty awesome. I mean doing well as if it's if you mean like has it got grown in traffic in size and in prominence on The internet yeah, the so that hip a thing and whatever and the gifts are funny The Mexican drug cartels are making a good give the Mexican drug cartels are making a lot of money doing what they're doing, right? They've grown in size and power Like all the stuff they're doing is really You know like well and so and so we have to figure out Are they the Mexican drug cartel? Are they the US go and if you're a reddit employee? You've got this really scary job of do we make some? Rules. Yeah, and and and try to fix this and risk losing the magic of written people go to nine. Right? Well, the question is the question is not the question is not just do we make rules? The question is how like what are the rules and what how are they going to be enforced? Like yeah, I think you can make broad rules. I mean they have this one about an anemic about saying we don't Tolerate people exposing reddit users on reddit, right? Okay. I think that's actually a fine rule. How do you enforce it? Do you enforce it by censoring entire site? No, I think you need to have another rule It says we also don't censor things unless like there's got to be some some kind of you know illegal You know or you know Criminal. Yeah, I mean I get to think of like what they would be I don't know because I'm not making the rules for reddit, but I do think that someone at reddit should say you have to At some point say is reddit gonna be important if it's gonna be important What are the constraints? What are there constraints that we put on users or are there? Do we say like we want you guys to act in this fashion towards one another or towards the world, right? Do we build a democracy or did we both order the flies? I mean that's like right because it's Lord of the Flies right now Yeah, and that works. Okay, it's okay when it's just gifts If it's anything more serious than a gift or like an AMA, right Lord of the Flies breaks down pretty quickly God, these people really want us to talk about the HTC butterfly. Well, you know, what is the butterfly? It's a film that came out in Japan. It's literally called the HTC. Oh the J the butterfly butterfly I don't want to talk about I mean it's an Android phone. I don't want to talk about an Android It's the galaxy premiere. We can talk about an Android phone any day of the week. We're talking about important butterfly religious political This is we're in the midst of and we have to wrap up because yeah, we're Watch bro, you were talking about. Well, let's see what time it is And then you looked at your watch and then you knew what time Ross Miller is in here And that's our son Ross is gonna remind me to talk about some stuff. Okay, right? We're gonna wrap Well Well, I'm just I'll make sure I do it. Okay. I've got Michael and Ross just staring at me Like I'm gonna do something wrong just tell arms crossed I just say and wrap up. Is that all your hair? He's got it. Look we're hiring. That's what that's we're gonna talk Oh, so we are hiring a video editor Are you both happy? We're hiring a video editor There's good verge comm slasher obs. We're hiring a video editor. We're hiring a writer on the west coast We're gonna actually have some other Listings. Why are we hiring? We're hiring we're replacing me we're hiring a body We're hiring West Coast. Yeah, like we're we're hiring a body double I'm going for the nude West Coast me lie doesn't want a national West Coast news writer I'm going undercover on reddit and and we have and And frankly, you know if you're a professional East Coast news writer that you want to you want to throw your hat in the ring we're all ears and we've got other jobs that we're gonna talk about that are that are Important roles that we're gonna be hiring for in the very near future. Yeah that I Think you guys will want to you'll be very interested in yeah, not not not you guys necessarily in the chat room world But you guys in the world. Yeah, so if you're in the chat room, you're definitely not getting a job Well, I mean if we can trace your your actual identity, yeah, yeah unless you're totally anonymous in the chat room But we are logging all of your IPs. Yeah, and we will be Mm-hmm Will be coming to your house, right? All right, somebody that's anonymous and pay them through what I'm gonna call it through all the Bitcoin Bitcoin. Yeah Yeah, all right. Well, that's the verge cast this week In touch with us you can contact us Verge cast at the verge comm you can leave a comment on the post when it goes up or you can find us on Twitter The verge is at verge I'm Josh Witte Polsky and Eli is reckless Paul is future Paul. You can also reach Paul at his PO box. Yeah, New York, New York 10 to 7 501 yeah, New York, New York 10 to 7 6 and Or if you're just like wandering around in Union Square I might Paul would be We haven't we have a creep shot of Paul. Yeah Paul doesn't mind if you creep shot him and In fact, he rather enjoys it. Oh, we have an on the verge Halloween edition October 30th. Yeah Manhattan Manhattan, Manhattan, New York, Manhattan, Manhattan, Manhattan, New York New York, yeah state Costumes costume. What are we doing? Costumes coming costume. Yeah get something special from us and I want to see great costumes. Don't half-ass this I'm counting on you cuz I can aware and we have can I talk about who we have? Crowley, you know my crown Dennis Crowley. That's Crowley founder founder of foursquare will be on on the show anything else? We've got some polygon stuff. Yeah, we're gonna pay about some polygon very exciting polygon stuff. Oh, he got P. Holly Many times it's all and And oh, yeah, I did some awesome and no big deal no big deal guys, but but my birthday is tomorrow So if you want to send me gold jewelry, I don't My segments are No Which one oh I went to Maker Faire, but I also went somewhere else where don't tell me where'd you go? Don't tell me Where'd you go? Don't tell me. Okay, that's our verge cast for the week We'll be back next week. Oh god next week is gonna be crazy Yeah, next week is this time next week. We will know if an iPad mini exists. Are you excited? Don't answer that don't tell me. Yeah All right, and what oh Yeah, we'll be live casting after the after the Apple event We will be live and direct and probably after the Google as well the colors you think the iPad will be right now Yeah, now's your chance. I think I'll mail them in a novel take our poll on the verge calm. Anyhow, that's our show is always a Pantone color chip as always. I'm sure there's nothing to fear in your home this weekend Rock and roll man. Oh rock and roll