 Hey and welcome to the Vergecast for the week of December 5th, 2011. I'm Josh Topolsky. I'm Paul Miller. No, wrong Miller. That's not right. Is that your brother? You're Ross. You're Paul Miller's little brother, Ross. Oh, oh, sorry. Let me try again. I'm Ross Miller. I'm Nilay Patel. And we're back. Paul Miller actually will be on. Yeah. He's going to be on. We just swapped Miller's from the minute. He just isn't on right now. Yeah. The Miller minute. It was an accident. Anyhow, we're back on the Vergecast and big week. Yeah. I think, come on, was it a big week? The droid's eye board was announced. That's true. I rose the week of the zyboard. When you think about it, that's pretty significant. That's really all that matters. That's pretty important. Anyhow, but we're back to talk about the week in technology and consumer electronics and- Whatever Ross is going to say. I don't know. As I said, Ross just raised his eyebrows, like suggested- I'm getting excited. Tell me more. Yeah. So anyhow, we're back and we're going to discuss what's been happening. Kind of a lot going on, but it's also one of those- Not really. CS is coming in a month. CS is bearing down on us like your tax return. Yeah. It is. CS in many ways, it's inevitable. Yeah. It's coming. You're going to have to do it. Yeah. Unless you live in some sort of European socialized where they're just taking taxes left, right, and center. Yeah. They're just doing whatever they want. Just doing whatever they want with your taxes. Am I right? I like that. Am I right, Paul? Building roads, building schools. Paul's nodding off camera. Yeah. Building schools, building roads. How dare they? But listen, anyhow, it's not about socialism, which we talk about every single podcast. We should just talk about technology. You want to jump in and do it? So Ross, why have you removed Paul? Mistaken identity, actually. No, I'm here this week to talk about the Xbox Live dashboard that went out this week. This is like a really big update. It's the one I can tell. I played it for a couple minutes. So it's the second visual refreshment. The first one was when it launched with Blades and the new Xbox experience. And now this- The Nixie. The Nixie. Nixie. This is like Nixie 3. Yeah. It's like new Nixie. New, new Nixie. It really is like it's a time of new newness. Yeah. Right? With Twitter, which we'll talk about later on. Go ahead. Yeah. Sorry. So the big changes you'll see, and it rolled out this week, I think about Wednesday-ish. There's the Metro UI. The entire UI now looks like a Windows phone. And this future Windows- As it should be. As it all should. Squares everywhere. I hope you like that. Metro style. It's Metro style. Metro. It's very Metro. You know, I was just- And not to interrupt, but I was at the Microsoft campus earlier in the week, and Metro is everywhere there. Are there surfaces like on the floors and the walls and the tables? People are wearing gigantic square shirts and sliding from one- Sliding across the campus. It's quite amazing. Anyhow, go on. But yeah, Metro. It's Metro style basically. Yeah. Metro is one of the two or three big things. Oh, did anyone go? It's Metro, but it's also not, right? I mean, it's got the sliding, but then like- It's influence, though. Yeah. Very heavily. It's very Metro styled. But of course, Metro is like a touch screen kind of interface, but this is not. And you do not want to use this with Kinect Wave. It's still that kind of hover hand thing. Oh, really? Yeah. You still have to hover hand to see most of everything on there. I like your word of warning. By the way, I'm adjusting my mic, so I apologize. Your word of warning, you're like, you do not want to use this. This is a public service announcement. Don't look at it. Don't even think about it. It's bad. Don't try to use it. It's not cool. But anyway, the second big improvement is Bing search. I don't know why they call it Bing, but I do know why. I think I know why. Good idea. Because that's their search engine. It's a search engine. I'm just going to throw that out there. You're not searching the web. You're searching all the games, all the movies and TV shows you can watch on the Xbox. And it actually includes Netflix and Hulu now. You can search through that, through the unified Bing search. Right. And that's like a Kinect thing. It's a Kinect thing. You can like, but like Kinect, not wavy, but like voice. Kinect not wavy, Kinect voice talk. This Kinect not wavy, that's some of their technical terminology. Kinect not wavy, Kinect voice. Yes. Those are two different pieces of documentation. If you remember when Zanofsky was talking about it, I was like, I like this Kinect not wavy thing. Yeah. Zanofsky talks about not wavy constantly. Not wavy. Anyhow, let's get to the meat of this. Anyway, so you've got Bing voice search, which is actually a really cool thing. If you can get it to work, and most of the time it does kind of understand what you're doing. You can, I'm actually watching myself on the screen. Don't do it. Don't watch yourself. It's really disturbing. I can't do this. It's tough. I cannot do this. But I've been watching this going on, and I've observed that at certain angles this collar looks like an L.L. Bean Dracula thing going on. Yeah, isn't it? Like yuppie vampire. No, you're a list ad on a boat. I'm just a list ad. I don't know if you've read any of these books. You're about to go yachting. Yeah, I'm yachting. I don't think he's... I mean, at night, night yachting. Yeah. Oh, dude, night yacht. You heard my... It's my 70s prog rock record. I think it's your 80s electro project. Oh, yeah. Like super clash... Did you say night yacht? Night yacht. Night yacht is really good. Does night yacht have a talking... Is it a talking yacht, too? Like night rider? That'd be good. That's cool. That's like the spin-off. You mean like it's with a K. Yeah. Yes. Night yacht. Yes. That works. That's good for the band, too. Night yacht. We must track these people down. Yes, sir. No, but he has a different kind of voice, right? Yeah. I mean, I would assume so. It's like Kitt's brother. It's like a pirate voice. All right, come on. Seriously, let's talk about it. Okay. Metro UI. God. New Xbox Live dashboard, Metro UI, Bing voice search, and the other big thing is the new Windows phone app, the Xbox companion. Which is legitimately cool. It is legitimately cool if you have a Windows phone, which again is a very small audience. Hey, come on. Yeah. Okay, sorry. That's what they're trying to do. They're trying to get people in the game a little bit. It's honestly... Look, they want people to go, wait a second. I've got a Windows PC. I've got an Xbox. You got a Nextbox? Next move. Xbox, yeah. You can actually get the phone where you can't do gaming. Get the phone. You can do games. You can do games, but not multiplayer. Cheevo's. There's Cheevo's on it. Yeah. You've got an upper gamer score, bro. Yeah, you really do. My gamer score is terrible. All right. My gamer score reflects that I play mad. So what do you make of the new interface? What are your feelings on it? I mean, honestly, compared to the new Xbox experience or the old new Xbox experience, it's a lot better. I mean, I do like the look of it. It's very grown up. It's very grown up. The new Netflix app has... It's sophisticated. Yeah. It's very fun. It's very fun, but it orders a bottle of sparkling water when it goes out to eat. If new Xbox experience is Amstel Lite, this is a two buck chuck. It's getting there. It's getting there. That doesn't make any sense. Amstel is more expensive. Amstel, but literally a six pack of Amstel Lite is way more expensive than two buck chuck. But you're getting six of them. But I'm saying it's more alcohol by volume. Think about it. And it's more alcohol in volume. Yeah. Then I've just utterly destroyed it. Two buck chuck would be going down. That's like you're a wino. Or a yuppie. But I mean it's easier to drink. It's an easier to drink. A yuppie wino. Yeah. They're out there. On your night yacht. On night yachts. Night yachts. Taking night yacht cruises. No, I like it. The other day Netflix got updated. It looks a lot better. Hulu got updated. And now you can actually... Like instead of saying play panel one, play panel two, you can actually say play the rest of development. And it knows what you're talking about. That's pretty cool. Really nice. It's a lot more than I thought. And they're doing all this other video stuff. You can watch Fios TV. If you're a Fios subscriber, you can watch TV. Yeah, I love that. If you're Comcast, you can do Xfinity on demand. You got all those. YouTube is coming. None of these are actually out yet. Right. Fios and YouTube are supposed to come this month. Comcast sometime early 2012. Yeah. So we're not there yet. But those are like in the pipeline now. And apparently capable. So this is like... I mean I have to say, so I played with it a little bit yesterday. And then looking at the partner stuff. It's interesting that this is not... This whole thing is not about gaming for the Xbox. This is about doing everything else. No, this is... They've got gaming on lock. Right. This is like, hey, we have Netflix and we have Hulu and we have all this other stuff we're adding. We really want you to start thinking of this as this is your entertainment center. This is what you turn on. This is it. And I think if they do Fios... Never turn off. So the thing about the Fios thing is that it's only 26 channels. So I don't know what that channel list is. But if they could do it so that this thing actually replaces my cable box... It's 26 of the worst channels. I'm sure. Oh yeah, absolutely. It's like WB4. You know? Yeah. There goes our WB sponsorship, by the way. That's all right. Oh well. Yeah, dude, on the verge, man. You just blew our cable. I know. What are you doing? I know. We could have been on WB4 this next season. Stay tuned for On the Verge, episode two, sponsored by To Be Determined. Yeah. But I mean, if they had all the channels or if those 26 channels are good, I would put this on input one. No, it'd be really cool. Ooh. Input one. That's the goal. Ooh, input one. That's the goal, man. What does input one mean when all inputs are basically the same? They're not all the same. Well, they're all HDMI inputs and they just have different numbers. But what you turn on your TV and leave it on is input one, because that's TV. No, no, no. Really? No. I mean- What do you leave your TV on? Well, so I have a Navy receiver, so I leave it on- So you have like macros programmed. I leave it on, yeah, and then I have a Harmony and it's so it's- So you are a gigantic nerd with a universal remote. I mean, actually- I'm just saying, like, it's not a- I don't think- But it's because something else is managing it for you. Well, I mean, sometimes, I mean, yes, but in many ways something else is always managing it. But most people don't have that other, that something else. Yeah, I mean- You have to push the input button on the remote to get it. No, I want to be clear. This is metaphorical input one, not actually physically changing the cable. Those- I don't want to actually go, oh, this is just the most beautiful- No, I'm going to get back there. I'm going to light a candle. I'm going to sing a song. I'm going to unplug my DVR and plug it into input one. Yeah, I mean, I don't think anybody's taken- Nobody's taken their DVR off input one. But that's the goal. I mean, that's the end game for Microsoft is to say you don't need a DVR anymore. You just need an Xbox 360, we'll stream Fios TV to you. We'll stream your Comcast on demand to you. And for everything else, there's the- Yeah, that sounds great.... Netflix app. I'm sure Microsoft would love that. And in other countries, actually one of the, they do IPTV delivery in other countries. So if you're in the UK or around the world, it actually is a set top box. It actually does do, and there's a menu option that laughs at Americans that select your TV provider. If you dig into the menus, it says TV, and I clicked it all excited. You know what allowed that to happen. It just says not available in the US. You know what's made that possible. What's that? Socialism. That's right. Yeah. But that's like what's happening here. They're trying to do all this TV stuff and be the living room provider because you're right, they've kind of won the gaming space. Yeah, you know who's sniffing around. What's that? You know who's about to show up. Is it Apple? Well, I mean, I'm not going to put words in your mouth. And you're not going to put words in my mouth. No. Just stay away from my mouth. You stay away from my mouth. But yeah, I mean, they've got to get they got to come big with this stuff now. Yeah. I mean, they need to make this a thing. Right. They need to say this is now we're doing this. We're in the living room. We're the entertainment because it's clear there's all this talk. Something is happening. Apple's going to do something. Right. And the second Apple does something, they start telling the story. Microsoft's gonna be like, you got to be kidding me. Right. We've been doing right. We have phones with style. What's the problem? You know, this is the tablet and this is voice recognition. No, no, it's the tablet all over again. They're pushing. They've been in the living room, right? They've been pushing more than just video gaming in the living room. Media Center has existed for ages, is not getting traction. I mean, this is kind of their tablet again. Right. But you know, Apple's going to come home and be like, check it out. I mean, the way Xbox is successful. No, no, they're tap. That's what I'm saying, though. But their TV push hasn't been successful either. Xbox is successful as a gaming system. It's growing as an entertainment hub, but they need to make it real for people. They need to actually, you know, when Xbox was launched, they did all this media center integration, right? Yeah. They need to actually just stop the idea of that. You can connect it right to your media center. Everybody's like, I don't have a media center. I think the minute. What's a media center? I think the minute they got Netflix on there, kind of realized, well, this is like, this is their success story. Right. Like they helped Netflix just kind of blow up. Yeah, this is their success story. That in the 92% of all PCs in the world that run their software. Right. Right. In every enterprise, everywhere. Which is amazing is that they got, this is the thing. I think this is where they missed it with media center, right? 92% of the PCs run their software. Yeah. PCs and Xboxes don't talk to each other. They don't play. They don't play with each other. Right. And they should. They should do a way better job. Well, they should have, a long time ago, they should have found some way to bring like Xbox gaming to PCs. They veered in and out of that. A little bit. I mean, I think they've been talking about that and like halting. Cheevo's. Yeah. Xbox Live. I mean, is there a way to, there's no access to Xbox Live if you hit PC. Paul, right? No, you can go to Xbox.com. That's it. There's one game. There's one game. That's right, but it's like, it's just sitting there. 92% of the PC market, people are playing games on their PCs. Right. Or so I'm told. No, you're not. No, I was told that. And then they put out an iOS app. Actually speaking of Xbox Live, it's now easier to kind of interact with Xbox Live on an iPhone. Where's the Android app? I don't know. I doubt. I would say, I think Microsoft has like a cordial relationship with Microsoft. It is just open with Apple. And it's just open hatred. No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm telling you, when we were out there, I talked to a few people and it's definitely clear there's now like a, you know what, Apple's not too bad. I think especially by the way, since Steve Jobs died, I feel like it's pretty hard to diss Apple right now because they just had like a pretty major loss, like a really emotional thing. Like dude, they're kind of like, you know, Apple, we've been pretty good partners actually when you think about it. We're actually kind of friends. You know, hey, you don't realize this. Like there was a lot of like, you know, you don't realize this, but blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, yeah, you guys just have an enemy now together. Like a real one. It's like the enemy of my enemy is my enemy or what is it? My friend. My enemy is my friend. Yeah, but it's the reverse of that, is it not? The friend of my friend is my enemy. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. That's the way I like it. Wouldn't that make both the enemies a friend when you think about it? No, no, no. The enemy of your enemy is your friend. Because you share economy. I'm just saying it's a three way enemy situation. No, no, because the enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your enemy. Right. At any rate, I think we can agree on one thing. I'm saying, this is like bingo. This is like trying to teach me bingo, right? It's like, here's the thing. I don't think I'm stupid. I'm not sure. But there are very basic concepts that I find impossible to grasp. Yeah. Right? Like bingo. Yeah. Still don't know how it's played. How many days are there in a year? Still working on that one. At least 120. Yeah, I know that. It's more than 100. Yeah, something like that. Okay. We were talking about the dashboard, right? Yeah. By the way, we have a hard stop in 20 minutes. Because we have to go do rehearsals for the show tomorrow. Let's just jam through some things. All right. Thanks, Ross. This is where you leave. Miller tag team out. We said nothing about the dashboard, by the way. We talked about it. There's tiles. We're speaking. You ready to tag in here? All right. Okay, here we go. Miller out. Goodbye, Ross. Adios. This is real. It's not cool. Miller in. We'll play it. We'll play it, sir. Oh, wow. They're hugging. Are we getting this? I'm seeing Miller emotional over there. I'm just seeing your reaction in Ustream. That's great. You don't know what just happened off camera. It was pretty sick. Yeah. Not in a cool way. We do have a bingo. No, we have like two bingos. People are awesome. Hey, so you guys hear about this Xbox update? Hey, what's up with that? Have you checked it out? Ross, you've changed. So they took Windows 5, Windows Phone, and they made the tile. Metro style. The Metro. Yeah. And they brought it to the Xbox. Do you get the impression that Microsoft and Apple are kind of a little more buddy-buddy now? A little bit. Right? I was just thinking. I was just out of Microsoft. Really? Really? Tell me more. Yeah. Anyhow. And I'm sorry, what's the next thing? I think you jokingly said at the top of the show, the Motorola Droid Xyboard was announced this week. Yeah. One of your most hilarious jokes, by the way. Yeah. Woo. Super funny. Every once in a while there's like a major product announcement that I just wasn't around for. I was doing something else. I was out. This wasn't a major product announcement. No. So I see a word like Xyboard on Twitter, right? Like I'm out of the office, come back, oh, that's a real thing. That's not a joke. You know, there's that hilarious Android name. The Xyboard is very real. Hilarious Android name generator. Oh, yeah, yeah. Really good. We covered that this week. Yeah, it was awesome. If you guys haven't seen it, by the way, the Android phone name generator is amazing. In fact, I'm just going to dial it up. You know what's great? The Xyboard's the, like, the name generator could not come up with Xyboard. No, no, that's true. It's not yet. It's not yet. It's the exception that proves the rule. Like, they will go to no end to make the worst names possible. You know what's really amazing about these products is first, it seems to be like Verizon just did them alone. I mean, here's a good one. Acer Legend Touch G2. I mean, that could totally be a phone. There's no reason why that wouldn't be a phone. My uncle bought one, and he was asking me how to get a... And he's still not on gingerbread....Gentech Joyride on it. This is great. Samsung Dream Plus. I mean, this is incredible. These guys are so good. Yeah. You should put that away, because I'm not going to be able to. It's another hour of this happening. LG Devour Neo XTZ. LG Devour Neo XTZ is... That's really awesome....amazing on a lot of levels. Actually, Devour Neo is a really realistic name. It's good. XTZ. Yeah. I assume this is based off of the Galaxy S2... Epic 4G touch....Epic 4G touch on Sprint, which is the most... It is one of the most heinous phone namings. It's awful. Or naming of anything. Yeah. No, it's not. Well, I think the LG Rumor Touch still is the worst overall phone name. By the way, did Sprint completely fumble its great EVO branding? Yeah, completely. They followed it up with the... The EVO Slide? No, it was called the... Yeah, but that was called the EVO... What was the slider one? The EVO Touch 4G. Yeah, it was called the EVO... What the hell was it called? I'm sure these guys... And then there's the EVO Design 4G that just came out, which is a piece of junk. The EVO 3D was the real misstep. Yeah. That's where it all... That was where they're like, they're still trying to go high-end, and they thought high-end was 3D. Anyway, look. So, about the design board. And I think this is really interesting, because we're about to go back to CS. Oh, EVO Shift. EVO Shift is what it was. EVO Shift. Wait, last year at CS. A year ago this time, we went to CS, and we saw the Atrix, and we saw the Zoom, right? Yes. And they're both being followed up. Remember our excitement about the Atrix? And remember how we were like, the Zoom. It's a big deal. This is the true tragedy of being into technology. When you have to look back... Constant crushing discipline. You have to look back on your excitement about the Atrix, and how you thought that the... The laptop. The laptop dock was going to be it for you. Nope. The ish. The ish 2 just came out, like totally unheralded launch on AT&T. We reviewed it. Heralded? It wasn't like... It just came out. Motorola just like spit it out. You mean heralded? Heralded. Did I say heralded? Yeah, I thought you were talking about heraldo. I was talking about heraldo. I thought you were saying like there's a phone called the heraldo. Heraldo is much more cheap. HTC heraldo. Yeah. Pretty good. Unheralded launch, thank you. This is what happens when I type for a living. And you drink Amiel. Yeah. Not an endorsement. It's just... Look, it's no two-buck chuck, okay? It's also not an endorsement. And then this Zyboard leaked out, and they actually released the Zoom 2 media edition in the Zoom 2 in the UK at a launch event. I feel like they're just trying to get some stuff out before the Google deal goes through. I guess so. They're like trying to get rid of all their... Motorola was not involved....stuff channel. Yeah, exactly. But they weren't even involved in this launch. Like Verizon has been talking about the droid Zyboard for like a couple weeks, and Motorola was like, we don't comment on this stuff. And finally Verizon's like, well, here's a press release. It's $529.99 on contract. The comment on this. This is the inverse of the Galaxy Nexus situation. Right. Yeah, they're like, check it out. Check out the droid Zyboard. They're in such a rush to get it out. It's $530 on a two-year contract. No, no, no. It is insane though, right? Like no one is buying this. Verizon will not release the Galaxy Nexus. Yeah. But they're all too eager to put out the press release for the Zyboard, which is $530 on contract. Ridiculous. And nobody's going to buy. I mean, who's going to buy that? It has these stupid corners. You don't like those corners? I just cannot get over those. I mean, I don't know if you guys know a skater, Christian Hosoi, from the 80s. He had a series of decks. They were called Hammerheads. And they had a shape that was like, it was kind of like this and then that. The front of them, if you can imagine, this is like the front half of the board. It went like that, then that, and then down, kind of like that. Yeah. I mean, the shape of the... There was a tail at the other end, right? There was a... Yeah, I mean, just go on the internet and look up Christian Hosoi Hammerhead. It's H-O-S-O-I. These guys know what I'm talking about. I think my brother had a skateboard. That's what the Zyboard, that's what all these new Motorola's remind me of. Everybody now is furiously... I see what you're saying. By the way, we have a bunch of our new writers here in the office. Everybody's furiously Googling right now. We just brought down Google. Do we... You get that? Great. You see it? Do you agree that it's similar to the Zyboard? It's got a way about it. Nothing beats the Zyboard. Nothing beats the Zyboard. I would say it beats the Zyboard. TC is just saying it's... Whatever. Anyhow. Anyway, so there's two of them. They're ridiculously expensive. Nothing beats the Zyboard. That's a quote. Can I get a shirt with that? Yeah. Yeah. And they're named the Zyboard, which is just amazing. And I have no idea why. Somebody just suggested the Zoidberg with an X. I just... I like that. Remember a year ago, they put out the Zoom and the Zoom and Honeycomb? Remember how they were like, you can upgrade to 4G? Yeah. That sort of happened. The most advanced. And like just... Well, so if we're gonna stick with the X naming convention, where do you go from here? I mean, whatever. Zoom 2, Xylophone. You can pick any word you want. Well, no, it needs to be a fake word. Three X's. The triple X. Two. Yeah. Triple X, two. I don't know. So I mean, that's... Why don't they just call something the triple X? But the Zole. X-O-L-L. No, that's a Z. Zole. Yeah, no. Well, you gotta mix it up. You can go to Z. You gotta mix it up. Yeah. Well, nothing's stopping them from using Z names. But the X is more extreme. I think we can all agree. The extreme would be one. The joint extreme. Actually, X-T-R-E. X-T-R-E. X-T-R-E. The X value will be X-T-R-E-E-M. X-T-R-E-E-M. Do you think that they're just like a little McAdam is like, he's got it written on the wall? Or if it's like a really thin or maybe like a flip form factor, the X-T-R-M. Oh, I see what you're saying. That's right. No, no, that's right. X-T-R-M is what it's gonna be. Yeah. But do you think they're just waiting for it? Like Samsung comes up to Verizon, they're like, what about this one? They could do an X-O-X-O. It's one of those inevitable things. Like eventually something large in the universe is going to hit planet earth. You know what I mean? Like eventually, like Armageddon. I'm just saying like these names are inevitably going to go there. You think you think you mean they're leading us Armageddon? Let me ask you a philosophical question. When you think of things that are inevitable, right? You think of planetary objects striking the earth and destroying all mankind. It's just like, it's like you don't think like inevitable. It's like tomorrow the sun will rise. No, it's different than that. It's like, well, I mean, I'm just worried about you. No, wait a second, wait a second, wait a second. Okay. It's like, I don't think that's what he meant. It's like chaos theory or it's like, it's like if somebody is throwing a whole bunch of darts and you're in a room, like eventually a dart's gonna hit you. How many darts do you think they'd have to throw before they'd hit you? Probably a lot of darts, but there's a lot of large bodies in the universe that could hit earth. And how does this, but what I want to know is, so when you think of probable events, I don't doubt that that might happen. I mean, I'll accept that an asteroid or something is going to slam into the earth and destroy all mankind. That's the second part of this. Well, you've seen Deep Impact and Armageddon. You talk about Armageddon in the movie, right? Hold on, wait a second, wait, wait. But what does that actually have to do with the, with the Zyborg? Well, I'll just say it's not, it's not like a premeditated thing. It's not a strategy on Motorola's part. It's just, they're just hurtling. Oh, you're using that as a comparison. They're hurtling, yes. It's a metaphor. You're saying much like an asteroid, much like an asteroid, which is on course to destroy all life on this planet. Can I, can I just talk? So you're saying that we need to send Bruce Willis to destroy Motorola on a modified space shuttle. No, no, no, no. But he stays there to die. No, Bruce Willis has to go up and he has to land on the word XTRM and he has to plant a nuclear, spoilers. Yeah, yeah, spoiler alert. He's got to plant a nuclear missile in the core of XTRM and he's got to stay up there to detonate it. Which would be, which would be right in between the T and the R. So, and then Owen Wilson gets with his daughter, right? Isn't that what happens? Owen Wilson's in that movie. No, it's Ben Affleck. Ben Affleck. Cool mix up though. Wait, Owen Wilson is in that movie. No. Owen Wilson is not in Armageddon. Am I completely confused? Yeah, you're completely confused. I'm IMDBing this right now. You can IMDB it all you want, but Owen Wilson, if Owen Wilson is in Armageddon, I am going to be, especially if you think he's the Ben Affleck character. Owen Wilson's in Armageddon. Oh, he is in Armageddon. You're right. Dude. No, no, but he's not, he's not the Ben Affleck character. No, he's not Ben Affleck. What I say to you, Owen Wilson is Ben Affleck. Owen Wilson is like, what does he do? He's like a, he's like a. He's Owen Wilson. He's like Owen Wilson. Owen Wilson playing Owen Wilson. He plays like he's a scientist or something, but it's Owen Wilson. Yeah. It's like the scientist. Can we put this, can we get my computer and the video podcast to show people? I'm just going to make slow circles with my mouse. You know, I'm sorry that I doubted you. God, I'm just amazed. We should move on. We should move on. The cyborg, no one's buying one. Cyborg. Maybe Owen Wilson. He's got the money and he's goofy, so why not? Step over Armageddon Royalty Check. That's exactly right. All right. So what's up? So let's talk about more middling Android products. Quickly. So AT&T launched LTE in New York. They've put out a bunch of terrible phones already. The HTC vivid, which Chris reviewed, which was, it seems like this first wave of devices is particularly bad. But it's always bad. With 3G, most of the, yeah, the Thunderbolt was a bad phone. Most of the 3G devices were feature phones even. No, but I'm thinking like the Verizon's LTE launch devices were not great. So the Thunderbolt was okay. The droid charge was just okay. The droid charge just got gingerbread like last week. I mean, if you know anything about technology right now, if you know anything, it's pretty hard to get fired up about the LG Nitro HD. So David reviewed it. Have you played with it? Do we have it? I haven't had a chance. It has it. You should see this thing. So it's LG's like first big kind of flagship phone. Can it be brought over here? It has a 720p LCD display. It's actually fairly thin. It has absolutely terrible battery life. David said it doesn't even last a week. And the skin on it is a crime. You mean a day. Yeah, sorry. You're having all kinds of gaps in your... I've been doing nothing but talking all day. I'm a little worried about you. Can I just tell you? Does this ever happen to you where you do nothing but talk all day and then you kind of forget how to talk? No. Okay, that happens to me. The one thing I can do pretty well is talk all the time. Oh, I know. Yeah, I know you do. Where's this phone? No, but you know what? The more tired you get, the worse your talking becomes. Yeah, no, with me it's like literally if I do nothing but talk all day, by the end of the day I've like lost all my speed. You can't talk. I've run out of words. You're losing your... Yeah, which is good because I did that today when I had the podcast. Are we not getting this phone? No, I don't think anybody... And nobody's paying attention to us. Does anybody know where the Nitro HD is? Are we acquiring Nitro? Can I see it? All right. You can just walk it over. I have to say just this skin is so, so bad. Everything about it. It's like a bad copy of TouchWiz from a while ago. You know what? This is your next phone. This screen is 720. Wow. Yeah. Ooh. Yeah, it's gross. This screen is 720. Screen is 720. It's a nice screen. They built a nice screen. I don't know. I mean, I've seen worse. You've seen a worse skin than that? Open the app drawer. Let me tell you a couple things here. It looks a lot like Samsung's early skin. That's what I'm saying. It's like Apple is suing Samsung for overly copying them. Samsung should sue LG for copying them from two years ago. It's like LG didn't even catch up. I have to say, do you know what this reminds me of? It reminds me of Neo Geo related graphics. What I'm seeing on here. It's like super cartoony. Normally that would be a cool thing. Yeah. Oh, you know what it reminds me of? Neo Geo made a product called the Neo Geo Pocket. Which was a portable, it's a handheld gaming system. It's actually pretty awesome. I have one that's in blue camouflage. They released them in a bunch of different colors. They had a pocket that was black and white and they had a pocket color. I have pocket color somewhere in a drawer. Anyhow, it had icons on it that look like the icons on this. And what's happening? Oh, you were filming this. Okay, sorry. Let me keep doing this. Is there any personal email on this I should be worried about? I just David's. It's probably fine. Is there? Yeah. There isn't. Okay, good. I mean, look at this. Can you see that? That get HD games icon. Yeah, it's like full of crap. It really is depressing. I mean, it's funny because it's by far AT&T's best LTE launch device, but it's terrible. It's a terrible phone. Is this the new Twitter? And it's kind of like LG should try harder than this. So they want to make a credible argument that they're a smartphone manufacturer, which it seems as though they do. They have to do better than copying Samsung's moves from like a year ago. Oh, look at this. We just weather with it. Yeah. I don't know. Oh. It's weird because I kind of liked LG's play early on, which was, look, we're not going to blow you out of the water, but we're going to make a good cheap phone. And that was interesting to me, but they're definitely not going to be. I mean, that was like the early Optimus line. I just, why? It's like you walk into a store and you've got the iPhone sitting there. It's not LTE. That's a big software. No, no, I understand that. But then you've got like HTC devices and then like, that's it. It's LTE. That's your only selling point. And 720P display. Yeah, I know, but. Who cares, right? I mean, I actually kind of like the backing. I'm going to give that a, let me give this a six just for my two minutes of play with it. You know what the backing looks like though, is it looks exactly like the, what was it? The Captivate. It's like the same kind of idea as Samsung's doing on the back of its phones. It's amazing to see like LG. Make it pixel. They can make a pixel sensor. Huh? Yeah. Huh, Samsung? Looking at you. Let's take it. Let's do a size comparison here actually. So these are really similar in size and shape. Josh is holding Galaxy Nexus. This is a Galaxy Nexus by the way. For the radio people. Yeah, I'm holding Galaxy Nexus next to the Nitro HD, the LG Nitro HD Neo X7. Pain of work. They actually have a lot in common. I mean, it's obvious this is, you know, at some point in the near future. I don't say near is wrong. You know, it's funny. I was editing a review with David and it's like, what do you say about this phone? In the end you just have to say, don't buy it. Right? That phone is doomed from the start. Well, I just, what I was going to say is it's hard. It's hard to, if you know anything about technology, it's really hard to buy into an LG. If it's me and I care knowing that what ice cream sandwich is and that it's gotten a lot of really great reviews, pretty difficult to buy into an LG device on AT&T that's on, I mean this is on gingerbread. Yep. When will that be up? And it's a first generation LTE device for AT&T. Right. At what point is that going to get back? It will be left by the wayside so fast. There's no way that'll be upgraded to ice cream sandwich. I predict this will not have ice cream sandwich in the next year. No, the droid charge. This is what I'm saying. The droid charge got gingerbread last week. Right? That was like a launch device. That makes me feel really, that's depressing. Insanity, right? Like here's the thing. Gingerbread like, froyo to gingerbread. Yeah, not a big leap. Not a huge leap. Right? Like two versions back to back, right? Yeah. Gingerbread to ice cream sandwich. Like not even in the same ball. Like I said, it makes gingerbread look like Android 1. 2.3 to 4.0 if you want to do the numbers. Yeah. There's a big step in between. I just think it's a sucky situation for people to ask them. Even the Venue Pro got a mango update in a reasonable amount of time. Well this is interesting. It brings up our next topic perfectly. Segue. Sony, Air, Submarine. Actually, real fast. I will say this. Because the AT&T's LTE network in New York is basically empty, he was getting ridiculous speeds on that phone. Like 60 megabits down. Like insanity. Yeah, I'm sure the only guy with DSL in a small town gets really good speeds too. That's true. Yeah, fair point. Anyway, continue. Although why don't they run, they could run a bit of that bandwidth to those 3G towers. It could have hurt them. Yeah. They could share it, Paul. Like socialists. Yeah, like socialists. Motorola and Sony Ericsson both put out statements, which is a little bit of a different approach. I think everybody, they know there's a huge backlash. They know everybody's pissed that they just bought a huge, great new phone and they don't have the newest operating system. It's interesting they're actually addressing it. Yeah, they're actually addressing it. And so Sony Ericsson and Motorola kind of detailed what they need to do before they can get ice cream sandwich on their devices. Sony Ericsson is actually promising a pretty tight timeline. Motorola isn't as specific. They're not as forthcoming. No. Motorola's statement is like, this will take months. They're like, what does it matter? We're going to be part of Google anyhow. So some of the interesting things is Motorola said that additional releases will enable device manufacturers to ship commercial products with ice cream sandwich. So nobody's going to launch products with this initial run of ice cream sandwich code. Yeah, something like that. I mean, it's hard to tell. Now Sony Ericsson said that ice cream sandwich is really only built with the TI, with support for the TI stuff that the Galaxy Nexus has. So since their phones are running Qualcomm chips, they have to do that sort of porting. So that's a lot of work for them. This is interesting. So you know what's interesting is they both did it on the same day. It's very coordinated. There's no way this was an accident. It's like Google's like, OK, you guys are allowed to talk about your plans now or something like that. And Motorola made the misstep of talking a lot more about how it has to integrate all its Motorola things into the source code. Yeah, differentiate. Yeah, keep differentiating. Really necessary. They have to do it. Features like MotoCast, Smart Actions, and our comprehensive enterprise solutions are integral parts of our device experiences. And we want to make sure we continue delivering differentiated experiences for our consumers with these software upgrades. Because they wouldn't rather just have the new- Sony Ericsson mostly just complained about Wi-Fi and camera and that sort of driver support. I will say this. One thing that I've felt using the Galaxy Nexus, the creeping feeling that no software is being updated for it. No one's updating for 7.0. Because there's no volume. Yeah, no apps are being updated. No one's updating for 720p displays. And no one's updating for any of the functionality of Ice Cream Sandwich. Because there's no devices out there. Because nobody has them. And that's how it's going to be forever. What's actually been ridiculous to me, we're always hitting these new updates on Google Wallet rollouts. There's thousands of places now, especially in New York, where you can pay for stuff with Google Wallet. But there's one, one and a half phones that can do Google Wallet so far. And they sold like 20 of them. We can talk about this a little bit, but it's actually on the list. But the Verizon Nexus won't have it. It's not going to get Google Wallet. We have that on the list. It's really unclear as to why that is the case. Because the phone has the functionality. And I assume it has an NFC chip. Let's just skip down and update on the Galaxy Nexus. Verizon's probably working on a feature called Verizon Pocketbook. But it'll be incompatible somehow. They're doing ISIS, their partnership with T-Mobile and AT&T. I mean, Sprint's the only character. And they said, Verizon said an insane thing about not having Google Wallet, which is they referred to the Galaxy Nexus as our phone. And so their statement is like, let me pull it up here. Yeah, but they're lying. I mean, it's a lie, basically. Oh, it's definitely a lie. It's a dramatic carry-on. This phone is made to use Google Wallet. I did want to say one more thing about the software update. One of the most impressive things I've ever seen in technology was when Apple came out with the iPad, and you didn't really know right off the bat if that was going to be hugely successful. But a ton of app developers redid their software for basically day one for the iPad. And then there was a quick ramp up. And obviously, they made the right bet. And there was a huge sale on the iPad. Can I read the wallet statement? I just want to say, the fact that this doesn't happen on Android is a big problem for Google, because that veracity that Apple third-party developers update their software. No, when the iPhone 4 came out, people went to the retina display within months. It's almost instant. And it doesn't happen for other people. And Android really needs that for people to really be ready to aggressively upgrade their phone. Because if Josh upgrades his phone and is like, well, but none of the apps are really any better. Maybe you can wait around. That's not an exciting story for Google. No, no, no. Let me read the statement about wallet. Recent reports, this is for Verizon. Recent reports that Verizon is blocking Google Wallet and her devices are false. Verizon does not block applications. Google Wallet is different from other widely available M-commerce services, which makes me want to die. Google Wallet does not simply access the operating system and basic hardware of our phones, like thousands of other applications. Instead, in order to work as architected by Google, Google Wallet needs to be integrated into a new secure and proprietary hardware element in our phones. They're saying about the NFC chip, right? Yeah, the NFC chip. It's an app. It's an app that accesses NFC. And it's not their phone, right? It's not their phone. It sounds really bratty. Yeah, like the Nexus isn't their phone. It's Google's phone. It's, well, is it? Apparently not. Hard to say. I mean, when Verizon can block a Google application on a Google device, it's supposed to be the flagship device for a Google operating system. It really shows. Something is really wrong. This is what little power Google has here. Power of Google, I'd say, listen, here's the deal. We're going to put Google Wallet on that. Google is- You can sell it or not sell it. Right. You think Apple's going to ask when they eventually do NFC? You think they're going to ask Verizon for permission? Now, I don't even know why they're bothering at this point. They should just sell the thing on LTE. Like LTE- They can't. Well, they can sell it for Verizon. But they can't because you can't get it on Verizon. Couldn't you? But couldn't you- You can't provision it to Verizon. You could provision it, couldn't you? No. There's an LTE SIM card, but most of it won't work. It won't work. It won't work. It won't work. But if it went through the- But if it went through the whole open devices thing. But if it went through the- Yeah, what happened to that? Yeah, what happened to that? What happened to our effective government doing effective regulations? I don't know, man. This is a great argument for socialism. But you won't get voice service. So you could do it. Maybe you could hack an LTE SIM. No, but couldn't you- Put it in there. But you can get a Verizon device and have it. I can buy, like my friend could sell me his phone on Verizon. You could sell you his Verizon phone. Yeah, right. But you couldn't- But it won't be- It's still provisioned by Verizon. So you would take your friend's Verizon phone. But you couldn't get a non-Verizon phone. Right. But I mean, if it were- Right. It's not like AT&T where you just buy- I'm trying to figure this out. I'm just trying to work this out in my mind. You could do it. You might be able to do it if you were able to somehow hack the LTE radio to accept a different SIM card from a different Verizon device because those are tied together. I really- But you wouldn't get voice service because that currently runs over 3G. It truly is a struggle to not want to just stop using the phone altogether because I have to deal with carriers. Yeah, they're bad. With the carriers that we have where it's like, Verizon, why does it even matter? You're not going to sell- the Galaxy Nexus is not going to be your hottest phone. You've made sure of that. You made sure that you're not going to sell a ton of Galaxy Nexuses over the holiday season. You're busy pushing all of your other crap and people are going to buy those and you can do whatever you want. Why not just do the one thing that Google wants to do with this phone which is let it be a Google phone. Let it have Google Wallet. Give that small segment of consumers what they want because it will cost you- I mean, in the grand scheme, it'll basically cost you nothing. It'll be a rounding error. And yet, Verizon can't do that. No, they can't. They can't give a consumer a phone that is free of their garbage and free of their restrictions. And that's actually the other piece. They can't- They're burying their apps in the phone. Except for the iPhone. Right. Which I have to say, hats off to Apple. They're really sticking it to them. I mean, you know, it must be the worst thing in the world for Verizon to have to admit that they need the iPhone on their network. I mean, how hard is it for them to have- I mean, obviously- And it doesn't use their fancy 4G network. Right, obviously. And I would imagine it is their best selling phone. Obviously, the reason it came to Verizon so late, we know, is because they essentially said, no way in hell we won't do what you're asking, which is you're going to make a pure Apple phone and put it on our network. Right? Well, they also had some really weird revenue sharing things up front that they've changed. I would love to have been in the room when they made the concession to Apple and said, we'll do whatever you want. Please let us have your phone. I would have loved to have been in that room at that moment and laughed at them. Laughed and laughed. I just wonder sometimes though, like, these executives can be so good at their corporate speak that they can carry it into all conversations. And they're like, we have a world class leading network and you've got a great phone and people love it. And they just wanted to cut- like they're doing their spiel in the room. I can totally imagine that. And maybe inside of their heart of hearts, they're crying. But on the surface- Inside their heart of hearts, they're dreaming- They're just pitching their world class network. They're dreaming of dollar bills and preloading NFL mobile will bring to them. It almost makes me want to not- I mean, I've been saying, you know, I have to send this review unit back very soon, which is painful. And I've been saying I'm going to get the LTE version of the phone, but it almost makes me want to just buy the unlocked version and say, screw Verizon and really screw AT&T in a way because if I want to take it over to T-Mobile, I can. Or if I want to move to Canada, I can. Take my phone with me. Screw you AT&T. Take this. Hello Rogers. Anyhow. We rant about the carriers every week. We got to speed through these other topics. We got to jam through these other topics. It's an elaborate process. Sorry. It's a reach. I'm still feeling- No. No Broseph on this podcast. I mean on this Vergecast. Okay, we have more topics. Just a few. Just two. Just a few things. So I think we have it on pretty good authority from Scoop Ziggler that, what's his nickname? Scoop. I don't approve. Chris Scoops. No. That T-Mobile signed an invite earlier in the week saying December 14th we have an event. We have an exclusive here. It's exclusive. Have you seen our exclusive Lumia 710 on T-Mobile? I could not be less excited. So this is a very strange- There was something I said last week, guys, that I couldn't be less excited about. It was a Nitro HD. I think this is taking- So this is a really strange kind of announcement. It's in the topics. Where is it? No, no, no. I'm looking for it on the site. It should be on the front page. It was on the front page moments ago. Where is it? We're all clicking. We've published a lot of stuff since- Oh, there it is. We published a lot of stuff since that went up. I thought it just went up a few minutes ago. No. Wow. No. It's a really interesting announcement. It's a really interesting announcement because Nokia has been really adamant that they're not going to launch in the US until they can do a proper focus on the states. They can do a halo device. They can do differentiation. And then instead of bringing the 800 to the United States, they're going to bring the 710, which is the low-end product. And I don't really know why. And actually, Chris and I were listening to- I know why. Stephen Elop today speaking at an investor conference. We were just listening to webcast. And he was actually really upfront. He was like, look, the United States is different than every other part of the world. And he actually said it's different than Finland and it's different than China. Those were his two examples. That is true. Thank you, Stephen. I'll tell you what. I'm going to go with Elop on this one. Yeah. China and Finland are really different than America. He's got it right. He's pulled two of the best. But he was like, and we can't take the same products to America. We bring the rest of the world. And then it certainly seems, and I think Chris is very solid on this report, 710 is coming to T-Mobile, which is maybe the deepest combination of failed ideas right now. It's like you don't want to be on T-Mobile. It's like spinning out of control. No, no, no. It's like the phone that no one cares about. On the network. No, on the network. It's totally fitting. I feel like T-Mobile gets a lot of castoffs. And Nokia has always had a lot of trouble talking to carriers. They were pushing a Nokia device. What was the- like the S60 device they were just pushing. They were doing ads for it. Really? No. Yes. They were just, they were, I can't think of the name right now. It's like the Neutron or the Neuron, the Nitro. The Neuron, that was a while ago. No, it wasn't that long ago. It was like six months ago they were doing ads for it. The Astound. Yeah, the Astound. Is that what it is? Somebody would be saying, oh, the Neuron. The Neuron. The Neuron. They were doing ads. No, it's the Astound. It's not the Astound. April 6, 2011. Astound. No, I don't think so. The Neuron was a while ago. Is it an S60 device? Yeah. Yeah. It's an S60 device. Yeah. By the way, one of our Japanese editors corrected us. Whatever. Not even here. You know what? We're just not paying attention. Honestly, I am going to admit I cannot keep track of every smartphone that comes out for every carrier. What? I mean, I have my limits, man. I get a picture of Nokia, like how about I ruin your world? Every few months they roll into all the carrier board rooms and pitch some phones and nobody in America wants them. And so then they finally drag their tail to T-Mobile and ask T-Mobile if they'll take it. And they took it. But T-Mobile wasn't like, yeah, we'll take the cool one. Right? They weren't like, we'll take the Lumia 800. They were like, we're going to go Lumia 710. You know, this is totally off topic, but I just glanced at you streaming. I think somebody referred to you as Neil. Yeah, that's my name. I want to check how to like. That's how I check. That's how I make every reservation. Neil Patel? Neil Patel. Are you serious? I'm not. There's battles to fight. What about Niles? What about Niles Patel, Sid? I'll start doing that. That's much more like. You don't use Niles? There's a battle where that's like, it's like a harder name. What is my name? Jake Topper. No, I think it's Jack Topper. Jack Topper? Jack Topper. Is it Jake or Jack? And yours is just Paul Miller. Your regular white guy name is just Paul Miller. Anyhow, you know, Niles Patel, Sid, is not in any way like Anglo. That's harder. It's actually more complicated. That's why I don't do it. And I think a little more Indian, actually. Neil Patel is like, yeah, I can make a reservation at a restaurant. Nobody has any questions. You get there, they're like, oh, you're Neil Patel. Still sounds a little ethnic. And Eli Patel is like, oh, so you're Jewish, Eli. No. Eli Patel. Eli Patel. But they think Patel is a Jewish name, surname? I don't think so. I have a mixed heritage. Interesting. The two most domineering fathers available. Yeah, seriously. Guilt City, USA. So what's the name? What do we have? Let's wrap it up. Windows 8. Windows 8. Great. Love it. It's not you, man. You're the one who's just Justin Redmond. It's the next version of Windows. I don't have a lot to say about it. There's nothing to say. What is there to say about Windows 8? There's a few things. You know who should come back for this? Who's that? We should get Sean Miller. Sean Hollister. Sean Hollister. I was going to say Ross Miller. He was at the event. We should get Sean Hollister on the line. We're not going to do it now. I would like to hear his voice. I actually think Sean Miller should be an employee that we have. We've got a Sean Hollister. We have a couple of Millers. Really confused employee. Yeah. So we can talk about it. You know, I was doing the thing that you were just talking about. What's that? Where I can't talk now. Yeah, so you ran out of words. You've like, I was like, no, that never happens. I'm perfect. I never had a problem with that. No problem. I'm great at talking. So just two pieces of news here. So Windows 8 public beta coming in February and the Windows store, the App Store is launching late February. Apps will be $1.49 to start and I think they can go up to $1,000, which is, I don't know why you would have to announce it. So I'm buying my next version of Photoshop. In the App Store. In the App Store. There's one piece of this that I think is really interesting and this is just a rumor from Paul Therot who did Five Minutes on the Verge with us this week. Yeah, we should actually talk about that. But he was on his own podcast and he was talking to Mary Jo Foley and he said, well, my sources say ARM tablets will only run the Metro start interface and they won't have full Windows and Microsoft has decided that that's what they have to do. They have to make a decision and they've decided the ARM tablet, the Intel tablets might still do both because they can do both. I think that makes a lot of sense. I talked to some people at Microsoft about this and there's much that we talked about that I can't repeat. But there is, I think this is like a point for them and I started thinking about it pretty deeply. There's going to be two different things. There has to be two different things. I just don't think they should both be Windows things. I think the tablet should be something else. I think they should be an iPad. Yeah, that should be a mobile product. But I think they should be called. I actually think it'd be really exciting if Microsoft said, we've got something new. This isn't the Windows that you know. This isn't even really Windows. This is something else. This is brand new. It's for tablets. It's for devices that are kind of the Balmer is adamant that everything is Windows. I think it's a mistake. Guess what isn't Windows? The Xbox. Guess what rules? The Xbox. You guys were talking about Xbox and Windows files like Windows box. How great would that be? You know, they toss it around. I got one for you. Yeah, like every, every Windows, Windows X. Oh, yes. That's pretty good. Windows X. Would that be great? The tablet and the, the, the Xbox run Windows X. Yeah. The desktop and laptops. And then, you could even say, I would even say Windows phone X box. You call X, start calling Xboxes, whatever it is. Windows X tablets, Windows X. And then everything else is like Windows classic or Windows eight, Windows eight. You know, and then Windows, they should also do Windows enterprise, which has nothing to do with Windows eight. And they don't, and it's like whatever the enterprise needs. It's just like X Windows. It's just XP. Well, you know, actually there were some interesting reports, but that's, that's actually not so inaccurate to think about the enterprise and XP. There were some interesting reports about like analyst reports and you know, it strategy reports where Microsoft has a big job of selling Windows eight when it comes out next year because all of the big corporate environments have already done Windows seven and they're like tired. Like it was a big transition. Well, they went from XP to seven. They had to install a ton of new graphics cards. They wait for a Windows nine. Or whatever that looks like. Which will all run in a browser. Right. But like even. In the cloud. A browser in the cloud. Like no, a browser running silver light that's connected to the cloud. That's right. Right. But like even like basic stuff, like, you know, an office gets updated. Right. Like I know, I know like IT consultants and they say things like when they update office to the ribbon interface, like we had to do tons of training. It was really expensive to teach. People are stupid. All the admin and like, you know, executive people in the world. Which is actually funny because ribbon is designed for stupid people. Right. But it's like it's UI designed to like be blatant about how to use all the functions. You've been on about this for a while. But people know if they know. Right. They don't want to learn new things. I was using paint the other day. Actually today. What? Or yesterday. You're unstuck from time. I'm just on Windows 7. I used it his day. On Windows 7, the ribbon, they've much improved paint in Windows 7, I have to say. But the ribbon interface is horrible. It's just horrible. Just get it all out there. Just get it all out there. Here's the thing. Let me ask you a question. Try to say, try to find save apps. Is it like poison? Try to find say, it's like poison. It's a lot like poison. Thank you. Thank you. You know what? I honestly, you know, it needs an editor. You know what's funny? Windows X. Why we had to sub in the BT Miller Ross, who I love and I'm related to. BT Miller? That is so harsh. You should have referred to him as BT Miller. So you don't love him that much. No, not a lot. Just a little bit. Yeah. I haven't touched my Xbox in a while because I do all my games on PC now on Windows 7. Nice. You just rebuilt your Windows rig, right? Right? No, I built it a while ago. Can I just say, I just would like to just, can I just say, I just want to make sure everybody understands what just happened. Right. Yeah. Paul Miller. Yeah. Who built, right? Yeah. And regularly uses a Windows machine. Right. Just said. Paint. Paint. But he said paint. No, no. He said. He said. It was paint. You were talking about the ribbon. Yeah. The ribbon in general. You said it's like poison. Yes. Yes. And the ribbon's coming everywhere to Windows 8 on the desktop. I don't think it's like poison. By the way, there's like a forum topic that started like the first day that we launched and it's like still going. People are like jumping on. Oh, it's about to get a lot stronger in there. My one hilarious podcast comment. All I was saying is I don't care for a lot of the interface elements and that they are slowly killing me. That's all. I mean, you don't need a lot of. Somebody slipping a little strychnine in your coffee every morning. You don't have to eat three meals a day of poison to die. That's right. You just need a little bit. A little bit of poison. Just a drop can do it. Next thing you know, funeral for Josh Polsky. I mean, I have to say, it's funny because I don't think they should call the Xbox Windows X. I should think they need to get away from the word Windows entirely. I think they need to say this is our new operating system. They got the Xbox and the XPad. I agree with you. I think Windows has hurt them. I think Windows Phone has hurt. I have said this for a long time, but I do believe calling it Windows anything has hurt them in the phone space. Right. I think they would have called it like Metro. Metro's a great name. Microsoft Metro. Yeah. That's a terrific thing. This is our new. It's phone. It's nothing. It's something totally different because it isn't Windows. It's something totally different. They could say, yeah, we brought just like with the iPhone. They were like, yeah, it's mobile Safari, but it's iPhone OS. It's not OS X. Right. I mean, yeah, it's this kind of variation or whatever. Well, at the very beginning, they said it was OS X, and then it didn't have a name for four years. Remember? Well, people called it iPhone OS. They just called it iPhone OS. But even when it was on the iPad, they called it iPhone OS. They were hesitant to brand it. I think up until the iPad, they called it and they changed it. They changed it with iOS 4. Did they? Yep. I thought it was with 3. Was it with? I think it was whenever they released the iPad. Somebody, I'm sure here can, I don't remember. Nerds. Look, I'll be honest. I can't keep track of every name, every time they change a name. It's 3. It was 3. That's what I thought. Okay. Well, I stand for it. I stand for it corrected. You stay corrected. I dare you. I do want to say the shift to... This thing is really over my face. I just realized. This is true. If this is true, the arm is going to be completely different. It's kind of weird because the very first time Microsoft showed us Windows running on ARM, they showed us that you could run Microsoft Office. This is bothering me. You look really upset about it. I don't know what's happening. I'm just trying to get a clear shot. What are you doing? I'm just getting a clear shot. I just realized that my whole... It's like I'm like a... Your head is blocking our camera now. What are you talking about? Who's more important? Oh yeah, you're right. Ew. Sorry. Who is more important, Paul? You tell me. I don't know. It's something I ask myself every day. Who's more important, Paul Miller or Josh Dupolsky? That's kind of the thought that I wake up with. Well, Paul's answer is B-Team Miller. B-Team. B-Team. He's like, not B-Team Miller. At the very least, I know one thing. It isn't the B-Team. Don't have to worry about that guy. Ross, what's his name? Sorry, Ross. Yeah, sure. He's terrible. Yeah. All right. We should wrap it up. We should wrap it up. That's it. That's all we got. We should talk about what's happening tomorrow. Goodbye. We're going to get a haircut. Yeah. That's it. Talk to you guys later. Are you getting shoes? I think so. That's cool. Tomorrow, second episode of On the Verge, which is our big video show that we do. It's in Lower Manhattan, 7 o'clock tomorrow night. You can find information about it on the website right now. But we have a pretty interesting guest. We have John Gruber from Daring Fireball, who at times I have been friendly with. We've had some contentious. We've had some words. It's going to be a good show. I like him a lot. He's a good guy. Smart guy. I mean, I don't agree with him on a lot of things. I do agree with him on other things though. Yeah. He buttered us up today. He had some high praise. No, he said some very nice stuff about us today. I'm hoping that he's being sincere and he's not just feeling flattered that we invited him on the show. Our guard is down. He's going to show up with a machete. He's going to show up. No, but tomorrow he's going to post something about how terrible the verges are. Yeah, he's going to show up. They brought me in. But he's a smart guy. He has a lot of really interesting stuff to say, I mean, a lot of people don't agree with him. A lot of people do agree with him. When you talk about people who have a clear allegiance to a brand. He's the Paul Therot of Apple. Or is Paul Therot the Gruber of Microsoft? Well, whatever. You know what I mean. I just want to be the B.T. Miller of Google. B. Team Google guy. I don't know what that means. Anyhow, it's going to be interesting. We're going to talk to him about the industry. We're going to talk to him about Apple, a post Steve Jobs Apple. We're going to talk about Android, I'm sure. He's a man with a lot of things to say. He has a lot of actually very smart things to say. He has opinions. I like people with opinions. No matter what they are. Even if they're hateful. Even if they're just, tell everybody, B. Team Miller. It's fine. It's cool. Not a big deal. I still respect you. When people are asking, I don't think we're going to be doing a live stream. We're not live streaming. We're not live streaming and I don't know if we're going to for the new show. And there are things that are cool about doing it live and there are things that are not cool. Like for us, doing it live means not messing it up in any way. Our pilot episode was very much like, all right, let's stop, reset. We need to fix some things. I think the next show we probably will do it straight through live. I think right now we've got so much that we're juggling. It's like an added pressure to do a live stream. And we're going to turn it around the next day. Right? Right guys? What? Monday. I don't think so. Saturday. I think we should do it on Saturday. Saturday is the day after Friday. Saturday is typically the day after Friday. Sunday comes after that. Yep. Usually. Usually. I just think this, the podcast, we do it live and it's rambling and we talk to the chat room and we do it for two hours. People are like three hours. Really upset about the, just, are you guys watching Ustream? You see what's happening in there? They're not happy about the idea of Monday, so it's got to be Saturday. Yeah. Sorry everyone. Sorry, but you're working Saturday. It's happening. People are really, somebody just said Josh is hot. I like that person, whoever they are. I respect them. I don't think they have very good vision, but I like what they had to say. All right, that's it. We should wrap up. That is the Verge cast for the week. If you'd like to get in touch with us, you can email us at podcast at the verge.com. You can leave a comment, a comment. What is going on? You've ruined you. You've cursed me. You can leave a comment in the comment section of the post when it goes up. We always love that. You can also find us on Twitter. It's a new service that everybody's using. Oh, we didn't talk about Twitter. We're not going to talk about Twitter. We're not going to talk about Twitter. It got a redesign. Yeah. It's nice. Still don't like the Android app. Yeah. You can find us on Twitter. The Verge is at Verge. Neelai is reckless. It's me. Paul is future Paul. I'm Joshua Topolsky. Ross Miller is- Onorosco. I hate that Twitter name, man. It's so hard to think. It's like bingo for me. Yeah. Onorosco. That's O-H-N-O. N-O. One S. R-O-S-C-O. You think there's an E on the end? There ain't. There ain't an E on the end. That's like a follow up to Mobius. Yeah. Mobius had a record called Everything Begins with an E, or a song. The follow up is you think there's an E on the end. And that's it. That's it for us. We're done. Right? Rock and roll. You're like, I want to make sure Joanna doesn't jump in here. She's going to come sprinting over. She's like, actually, God, she left the office. Did she really? I can't see. You want to make sure she doesn't come leave her house. I was waiting. Get into a cab. Show up at the door. You want to make sure she doesn't jump in and say rock and roll right before you do? Yeah. She doesn't. She calls me after the roll of the night. Now is that the actual ending? Do you have to say rock and roll now? Rock and roll. No, they can't. Just cut that in. Is Trent here still? Trent's here. Trent, will you be able to cut that in? No. He said no. All right. That's all I ever. All right. That's it. Rock and roll.