 all the numbers are and that all is not here we try to add dragon ball he this breaks his uh... his terms of service on the offing on the uh... it's talks to be called today uh... anyhow this is the uh... bird categories just the weekend technology uh... culture and culture culture and called the cultural my favorite band for the eighties uh... million yes that was not a that was a song that the culture club performed like uh... coming down to us you come and go that's i really do uh... anyhow we are uh... we're back we've had some we've had a few weeks where where i think off uh... not working or trying to not work uh... and i don't worry it's going great here and i work in a first-class that's good i was right take a little bit trying to get a little bit of rest but before uh... the c s insanity started and everything away for the holidays anyhow but to talk about what's been happening and has been some news uh... you know even though it's been the holidays there's been news even though we have been around to report it basically which i you know it's not going to have the news happens even if we're not yet on the internet status pointing in news and i had a tight relationship i thought you guys were got that you guys were were just uh... exclusive is not does not want to talk about news it just doesn't don't think so so what i want to get into our talk about this really quickly this is something that's near dear to my heart so there's been a lot of instagram today there's been instagram news has been a lot of uh... insanity and and craziness about these instagram terms of service this is the last spot of light just like right in the middle of my face anyhow so i opened up my my house weekly this week which i have to do and this is the minute this is the first page of us weekly it's kim's instagram outrage this is on their own hot hollywood page really page page one of us yeah and uh... this is all about how how kim Kardashian me we read exactly uh... it was a shock shocking turnaround december eighteenth with just moments after showing off her new clip on bangs kardashian thirty-two threatened to quit the photo sharing app her issue new terms announced december seventeenth that would allow instagram to sell user photos without asking or yeah i really love instagram kardashian tweeted i need to review this new policy i don't think it's a fair well i should have her lawyers right on the case that then she immediately went to the verge dot com where she read me lies brutal takedown of the five of the incident but i have to say this is maybe the dumbest story that has ever occurred in my career as a tech reporter really dumber dumber than the story about randy zuckerberg yelena cali schweitzer on twitter about reposting her face book photo also yeah the number one non story of two thousand twelve that began lines wrote an editorial about it and that's how they did that story was so i don't need to get sidetracked now understand i wish i could get here and i think that's where it's been by this one was was it was true the layers of misunderstanding here that the the the the ferocity in which we wanted to the world wanted to discuss the implications of something that had not happened word in which just astounding i mean it's a nightmare yes the grab the bottle is uh... most i think it's happened you want to let you know if you want to go through a real fast could you understand identify where this light is coming from the fact that i thought there's a cup just a small i saw a investigate so i had to try to where is this light originally yes small dot of light by go ahead i see it now is easy it's annoying right it's not i don't know where it's right i wish i had i wish i understood how light works now that is gross whatever you doing now this is truly macro on your hands they like that i'll have that reminds me i'm supposed to that reminds him as just turned off the effort uh... wasn't it so you can use that uh... you know i cannot but i did not mind off now you've got your your you know i i turn i turn something else on i see very nice god so proud of the profession yet that stuff thanks ross uh... so if you're here's the here's the basic situation the uh... the old instagram terms uh... cms i'm trying to find the exact line uh... the old instagram terms said they could add to delete from modify uh... use modified delete from had to publicly perform publicly display reproducing translate your photos uh... industry then through any media formats for any media channels uh... that's that you know however millions of people have signed up for instance here that's the original term that those are the original terms uh... in the end and the next line said uh... instrument plays average versions on about or in conjunction with your content and that content uh... was broadly defined to mean uh... your photos your musical works our sound recording of anything that instrumented in shambhala touch from you they got this incredibly broad license you ever they want that was the old one the new one uh... was written in a much more friendly indirect way and said uh... we have a license to use your photos uh... we we take a sub license you have to baby's word some lessons are formally the word but like you to be in twitter use it because that's how you run your dp i and that they have a license and the the part of it all mad about uh... was this sentence uh... you agree that we can display your work in connection with promoted content without compensate media actually you agree that business may pay instagram to display your photos and connection paid response content or promotions without compensation to you which was almost immediately in inaccurately uh... interpreted to mean instagram can sell your folks to now rich and i would describe it but i mean i just uh... the death of wrong there is like shocking to well uh... i i i i said i do notes legally wrong interpretation but to a late person who's going to read that we have to accept that people do occasionally to services now now that's why i think you know that the mistakes your car and i i don't know uh... so i think there is a mistake of instagram's lawyers to use words that like are other words in a legal contacts about any notion of telling what they are and there's instagram sale of them saying here's a kind of advertising worded we're going to do here the specific things we're going to do with ads uh... and here we were chained flat what we're going to do instead they just change the terms of service said we're gonna share data with face book now that's which in terms service uh... and cnet why don't you go ahead and freak out about this this change in terms so that's like a huge fail in sts that so that the metaphor and copyright law for things you can do so when you take a photo you didn't you get the immediate copyrighted automatic under the law right and a metaphor that uh... like law professors will use is eyes a bundle of sticks right so your rights are sticks you can hand out the sticks and we want and one of the that the most important like right you can give away is the right to create a derivative right which means i think it's a great to paint your stick today yet to pay your set right i decided to throw it out i sell it to come to call a coca-cola uses it in the ad they've made a change my photo and some right and have to pay me to do it instagram never never asked for a right to never said we have the right to mock do you think that you need to like printed on a billboard was completely ignored but so so so so you're saying that the that that the main point of contention here is the idea that instagram that somebody that an advertiser to take a photo from instagram because like somehow instagram to cut a deal with coca-cola for breath instagram photos and don't make a billboard of like a look on the people instagramming drinking coca-cola there's like this which is which is not actually what was happening so not what was happening so there's like a there's a point and i'm by the point there's no way they could do that without talking to you couldn't prepare a record of a soap so so so so is there any legitimate outrage about their rights to your photos there was an outrage would be uh... so that the types of things they could do are pretty simple right they they're not to display your photos in connection with a content so it's new year's eve so coke goodbye that hashtag n y e in all the photos on that page on instagram uh... might have the word sponsor a couple of what about what about on coca-cola website uh... to but you can do that already right in syria has an a p i said critical looking put up uh... box on the website that says instagrams of this hashtag and that you could have done that before and i think that's what you're saying that you're saying instagrams have the that before these news around broader rights before this is actually thing that might be so i want to sell on address and took took their box of things they were allowed to do and they went like this right on the side of the fight that that there's nothing in the new terms of service that give them more rights over your photos or they can do more with then in the previous terms of certain absolutely can do less on the right so so it is a nice way to clear that kim kardashians uh... instagram outrage as documented by us weekly my magazine magazine of choice when relaxing to go back out who's the person of our love of the traffic of that that's uh... that's dixon uh... what is the mason comes to exit the incident that i think that they send at this it and uh... as close i like it better as mix of the context it's it's a bit too at this that's actually where they should have been done may have been to diss every other it or any other uh... and then they why do you have a corner uh... and then connie west is in is in the upper left hand any other point is uh... kids outrage was over was over the i don't think we can find our ages over the idea that this horrible thing is happening without any you know but this is what always happens in this is the world loves five we love to be scared we'd love to hear like the we love to like think the worst i mean i just can't think of a a worse business model for instagram we're gonna collect people's photos of like whatever they're drinking at night and sell that you know i i i could i could think of a worse business model like no business model which is what they seem to currently have but but they don't need a business model there on my face book right there but their business model from face book is is much simpler it's we're gonna pay where coca-cola and lipton and ben and jerry's on ready running promotions using instagram are going to pay us to run promotions on instagram and as part of is part of paying us to run the promotions in instagram you know we reserve the right to run ads near your photos and that's what they were trying to say and a utterly failed you know if you look at on these persons are to be running so uh... ben and jerry's had one where if you cash tag the photo capture euphoria and they picked your photo uh... they were on a ben and jerry's ad with your photo in it in your hometown right skills that's like the idea that i used to use hashtags and don't say what you're doing your photos that i would if you want to avoid that but so but with the lifting had one of our work you do the the passion was brisk pick which is like if you're the cash taking a photo brisk pick you know what dennis going to take it i i i do want to say that i i i want to say that as a kid as a person in the world as a human being if you use a hashtag provided to you by a some sort of consumer entity like coca-cola if they select you know the hashtag coca's it and you're using coca's it at you do you don't deserve to have the right to your property or stop because you are basically doing an ad for them that's what the hashtag is a big mistake about it when a company has a hashtag it not so you can see in cool or participate it so they can get your content rounded up in their so that's the answer russell brandon who is uh... one of our news writers all russely random i love you he did a great piece on what the average has actually so crazy he can be ran over there and uh... now we need a great piece on what the average has actually want to get it and they don't want your photos they he photos are cheap in the grand scheme of creating advertising right you hire photographer you get the forty one exists right what's expensive is getting people to care about you so it's they're not trying to round up stock photo motions are expensive right it was loved loved do cost a thing actually i have to go uh... as awful uh... now that likes to get in the middle of the engagement brandon use the hashtags and care about your product and and sweet pictures of using instagram that's hard photos is easy so if you know russell's piece was the advertisers are like we're not interested in the photos at all we're interested in the data about whose engaging with the brand how much they're engaging with the and what they do it's always like when i read it my eyes please over because i don't care about advertising right now it's funny because that that the second level of the kind of dumbness here is yes or maybe it's going to sell your photos but does anybody want to buy them and the answers how it now well we've also the social we've also the talk about with the instagram pictures and i don't know how to do so half of those are fake the majority of them i think are actually fake and then the other side of the other side of the fact that the photos are staged like that's right but they used to use things are used a handful of user photos and as uh... attack on track he saw yesterday uh... in the user handful of user instagram user photos and then but they went to the users and they paid them in top of the oldest parts which is a little bit more so hoping that is i was like i'm gonna pay you talk about it but i think that i guess if you're the kind of guy who instagram to further yourself eating the doritos yet talk about talk though private right here you're gonna be pretty much of the like would you like ten free to read a talk uh... in this troubled economy with the dollar keeps changing value that talk about gift card that's a good always that's right always gonna be worth a real is gonna be worth it uh... but you're going to go standard in america i think that i think that uh... you know i got that unsurprising all first off but i think the fear is like you look at that commercial ego all men what if they decide to just do that if they could just do that you know i think that was the where the fear the major came from an idea you know what you wrote the piece and it was pretty clear uh... that you know once the once the terms were explained by somebody who actually understood the terms it wasn't what you thought it was but there was a moment i felt the same way when i started reading about the new terms of service but let you know that i'm not up but if you look at for example take take it to somewhere else dot with a twitter yes so twitter has much broader terms and instagram rights where can take your tweet they can modifier to eat the consumer to eat the republic rebroadcast every single day commercial organizations used twitter data the people submit so we embed tweets all day long we make money by running ads next those tweets no one's freaking out right uh... when you watch the news after a big event it's just news anchors talking heads of reading twitter right that's what that's the experience watching cn after the presidential debates there's putting twitter on the screen i love that stuff nobody's paying the users for that writing that's commercial exploitation that work nobody cares if you're still at crazy man sixty nine says i'm so happy obama one right design direction does that did did twitter to sell his tweet yet i mean that's the thing though right like you did that happen crazy i don't know how much crazy that crazy that's a good uh... and uh... and that is by the way my alternate that's it right and and and it's uh... in and you know obviously in the the more uh... the larger example is you too where you two paths in insane array of rights to your content i mean they can do anything they want with what that doesn't that feels like that but you to feels like uh... a more even exchange in the sense that okay if i put something on youtube youtube can sell ads against that they can use it promote you to do all kinds of stuff like that but i get an awesome streaming awesome hosting service and a public venue to show my videos so it's like it feels like there's an exchange instagram feels very personal like and even in this in the same way i'm i'm not saying that legally there's a difference in the arguing that there's a legal difference what i'm saying is to a customer to a user of twitter or youtube i see a clear direct and obvious benefit to you know there's a trade-off i'm getting this public broadcasting channel and they're getting like my content which they're going to use in different places i thought it'd be into grand it doesn't seem as clear because instagram feels very personal i think the difference if the truth is they're exactly the same especially now that instagram has a public pages i mean the fact is like they're exactly the same in what they do i think it's the association that people have within the makes them feel somehow like how dare you like mike instagram is gonna be you know put into some hashtag group in on a code of conduct out how dare you get like if you're if your ship was institute was was twitter hashtag group somewhere yeah yeah well i put out on twitter like obviously that's gonna be out of our parents i think that's important but you know i think it let me let me try to blow your mind a little bit there is this outrage over i put this stuff on instagram and now instagram is taking some he's in my copyright that i never wanted to give them and they're gonna sell it make money off of my stuff right and there's this worldwide outrage kim kardashian is mad uh... you know it's obviously and this is this is as big as it gets and the flip side by consued youtube because kids are running around taking their music videos and putting them illegally on youtube uh... and they've been before veto existed they weren't making money off and that was units by common record label saying why is the service profiting from our work that we paid for that we created without any compensation on a happy little guys the level of outrage in return for that was wise why comes a stupid right but why don't they understand how good this is for them yes like that that the imbalance there is is enormous and it's well why i don't feel any sympathy for large corporation like they should they should know you do this good why they're the same as humans uh... at the at the people their people united uh... but on the flip side it's people only care about copyright when it's there's no care about property once there's two to give away or not give away and that we're very quick online to just trample the property rights of others right and that's like that's what all that's the tension all the services face especially because you know that this this question that is it was asked all last week white why don't people just pay for instagram and i'm so i saw the revenue potential of you know million people paying a dollar for instagram is pretty well it's million dollars uh... the revenue potential of coca-cola pay us a million dollars to run a month worth of advertising is very hot so that there's not you never gonna get to pay for the service it's never gonna work uh... and so detention between how are we gonna use are users property to make money and attention between what do users want from everyone else is in or with a so because it value us everybody stuff is private right minute ultimately has a value if you can't just go see everything on so if a so it is always trying to get people to share more stuff is in enhances the value of the service but that tramples are right to me that's why face with associate all the time because they're constantly walking there they're coming up here basin of the fence of your yard and saying how we lose back in it was a very hard to get segue into that the thing that happened a few days ago uh... this non-story that i was joking about right now uh... you know it's it's a few days ago cash writer who is uh... who works at fox works with us uh... it tweeted a photo of randy zuckerberg of the zuckerberg family right at christmas the arrow whatever celebrating the holidays and secretly it was a totally pros photo like using the pope they were they were trying out the pope app for the first time or something at the zuckerberg home and uh... and randy zuckerberg put this on her timeline on on face book and cali was for his friends with her sister on face book and she saw it in her time in her uh... feed and was like oh this is a really cool picture i'm gonna treat this uh... now let me just stop really quickly and say and i talk to cali about this and i think it's like you know everybody has a different association with how they use things are they view things on the internet i i think it's bad etiquette personal i think it's bad etiquette to take to take somebody's content from one service and reposted on another unless it's like a company or the president being clearly promotional like if deltas a picture of a new laptop on face book and we write about it on the verge or are we to i'd tweet about it and include a picture i'd like not a big deal because it's a it's a uh... the attention was there was to be shared else the intention was to be shared and cali actually explain this to me that she could get a lot of that she did it she covered a lot of the election uh... and that it was very common during the election that obama or on your screen with post something on their face book page and then all the media would go and take that picture and reposted on twitter cuz they were cherry twitter you're trying the same thing and so that was her thinking like already post this publicly which is how it appeared to her anyhow long story short ready didn't post the thing publicly she had tagged her sister in it and it appeared on her sister's timeline i think this is how it works because and because cali was friends of her sister it appeared on cali's timeline earning peter cali speed and it appeared to be public uh... to read his upper birth rate is he fit on twitter and was like i don't know how you got a hold of this how dare you reposted by it was like really so it is to be super this perfect storm of of like i think that digital etiquette on cali start sorry cali and cali's very lovely and and she had did not intend to like make and what it is a defender for a second like it was out and what's from a and i was first also randy zuckerberg is the former like pina no i i agree it is a it is in commercial so if it seems like if it's in a public feed if it appears to you as a public in a public feed it's kinda like a little bit more of a of fair game than if it were a private like thing or just shared amongst a few friends but but but so but then jim's brandy zuckerberg reaction was like totally bad form it's like if you're ready zuckerberg would it just be easier to dm the person or email them and say hey i say because this picture i didn't really want to be public do you think you can delete it her reaction was to go on twitter and start complaining about it which is i think what set off this like i consider the thing a total non-story it's like hey somebody made a bad judgment call where to put a picture and then somebody who happened to be zuckerberg dot mad about it and complain about it on twitter to me those things are like not stories people made it into this big lake even ready zuckerberg doesn't understand the privacy in a week it really wasn't that it's like she didn't know that cali was friends or sister so she didn't understand immediately how cali saw the picture which is fine like i don't you would automatically able to judge how somebody saw a picture if you saw the repost another service and like that the long and short of it it became this really stupid story like i honestly i'm sorry like we we talked about it a dozen different times like should we get this and i could not find the actual story in it yes like a let's it's like if dick costolo uh... dm failed if you try to get nobody to be screwed up and then we wrote a story about it like you've been because told us about used the arms on twitter like it's kind of not a story like everybody makes mistakes like randy zuckerberg overreacted and cali made a mistake of reposting a picture that really started his lectures on the front page of reddit the next day which is surprising to understand it was it was a taxi t v you see that i saw it like a airport all a call that's what i thought i i i i i mean obviously it is an opportunity for people to to make fun of randy zuckerberg and that was like was i think that's actually the deeper connecting thread here is that our fear and distrust and antipathy towards face book is so high that mark zuckerberg sister who no longer works for face book and salad reality t v show producer for bravo uh... we're here to to tar and feather her because she doesn't know exactly how face book how and she's in a unique situation i just face book subscribers just Facebook friends in like that's not a normal face book privacy situation for right right well also the whole thing is abnormal because like cali has a bunch of followers on twitter and reddy zuckerberg is ready zuckerberg is not like this happens to regular people you know like mike and is not on face book or like how come i might picture was reposted on twitter by thinking that a person with a hundred thousand followers like that doesn't happen because that's right on it going on in reality because the business and i think instagram would have in instrument owned by face book and they change their terms i think the world would have seen it and different what you know they would have done you can certainly would have they i think they have not had anything so it is and was still six person startup in a chance in terms of service i think it would have done more slack i think they would have gotten a lot more psych instead it was immediately read as a evil face book continues to be an ally and when i first saw it was definitely my first instinct was of this must be something that has they've been kind of pushed into by face book like face book was like you need to get in line with our terms of service and please change your policies like that was my initial reaction and i think it's like we have we have a high uh... mistrust or distrust of face book because face book has been and really responsible company they've been really responsible decisions you know like i don't i don't interact with face book the way i interact with twitter or instagram or any other any of these other discreet services these i feel that whenever i do something on face book i'm making i'm giving them something they need to run the business i'm making the exchange with that which is like they're only providing the service insofar as he can get them something that you know if to me into far as it can get them something they need which is similar in in the sense to you too but i feel like what you to provide far outweighs what they take away whereas i don't feel on face book that what they provide outweighs what i put into it you know i think it's actually quite the opposite it's like social networks are nothing new what they do in terms of sharing is not really special in new and in fact like there are twenty different discrete services that you everything that face book doesn't probably better in many ways face book makes it feel like there's any on fair exchange happening every time you do something and that makes me less interested in using the service to make me feel more guarded about what the service i will want from the multiple take for me and i think that that goes right back to the instagram thing people felt suddenly that they were taking more than they deserve and i i think that's you know i think there's a question of of there the bigger question here i think is not you know whether the terms of service are fair to the user but what are we willing to give up to have a free service because other would give us everybody to pay twenty dollars a month for instagram they would lose you know a lot of users pretty quickly i think i don't think people would say like oh i gotta pay the take you know what it's like to get twenty bucks a year for a pro account something like that right now you know you we've seen it even with uh... with games and i a last right there was a punch quest was a gay or a freemium game uh... and they were gonna run entirely based on what you have purchases or whatever and just didn't happen they should make any money into a big they change their minds and we're gonna start driving people towards an app purchases you know right people don't pay for stuff uh... they they have no desire to do it the freemium models are really hard unless you start to do really shady things like say we know everybody wants this one feature so that's the future we're gonna hold out and she paid a lot and that feels cheap to keep i don't that doesn't engender goodwill in your user base acting i think the question of what are we willing to give up for a free service there in my mind that this is a second piece of our own system if the reaction to we change our terms of service uh... is always going to be this like heightened scrutiny in this crazy and people are gonna get it wrong i think all these companies are just a short writing incredibly broad terms of service when we write about a new web service that shows up we don't ever do an analysis the terms of service right like right when we when we're like here's if this than that we never went looked at the terms and said they can take everything from you right on but they it's better for them now to write a terms of service in for every start to write a terms of service enables them to take everything broadly the obvious the candidates read and never change it and i think that and i think that and it's really important to note that it's not just that they're you know it's it's a companies are in you know if you're in business to make money or you think you're going to make money at some point and discuss for everything no matter what it is not done you know it obviously we've done the business contracts with the virgin with fox i've done contracts in music and like and and and you know i've had apartment contracts and you know weird things in new york the you end up getting into because you live in new york in every case when it comes to the person who's giving you the contract their jobs to cover their ass as much as humanly possible even if it's like progressive or malicious towards the person who's getting the car contract i mean sign a lease in new york and check out what the lease at least me right believe me it is not fair to the person who's renting the apartment it is fair to the landlord who owns the property and has something it really is something to lose right uh... so i think that that you know you have to people have to start understanding that these are businesses their intention is to make money and be successful and and in order to do that you typically when you enter into a contract with somebody for your business you do whatever is in your best interest in the contract and you don't as a user you don't get to negotiate you know you're signed the contract you don't and we've been doing this fifty years then not fifty years we doing it for how long thirty years with computers you get a piece of software you put the dvd and or you put the disk in and ask you get to this this huge page legalese which nobody ever reason it's like agree or disagree well i think that ninety nine times out of a hundred you agree man you've no idea for creating to well i think that's a bit of this perspective you know these people don't know and it's usually crazy like if you actually read it you'd like a while i didn't know that adobe has the rights to anything i create a photo shop which they probably do for all i know right but so here's the thing which i think is interesting if you look at the the history of consumer protection law which is like basically start in the sixties and seventies i mean they were to be good state governments are like to the point where they're mandating certain size fonts in my rental car great right there like this has to be capital letters and that's uh... fourteen point times a greater like this is in the law in a didn't do any good but you can't make people read the contract you just can't like you can you can do all kinds of you know song and dance around it but there's nothing you can like the government can do to make citizens read contracts of with third parties it's never been proven to be effective what you can do that was you can you can say well face book is bad at this and i think this is probably face book fears the most is face book it has a suit the terrible reputation for doing shady things is there going to be an alternative service has a better reputation is that service possible well everybody say just like i said with a dig sucks now we're all going to go to read it in our regular day is better now and people are like the cigarette controversy about it like will people was actually a market for privacy in the way that there's been a market for user experience and like features on some stuff are people actually want to care about and the answer for face book overwhelmingly has been no they don't care base will continue to do she like just terribly shitty things to its users with their data with the privacy and the people keep signing up for face book i don't know where the breaking point is going to come it would certainly wasn't a rumor that instruments are photos what's next you know like is it is it but marks are covered comes to house like is you like a body scan but me is that the level of i don't i honestly don't so here's the here's the one concern i have with a very very great about nine ever so everything you said about this the one concern i have is that word basing this whole conversation on the person the people just getting the interpretation of was there a way for us to have a hell this better and get that terms without the way it was originally had i mean it's a publicity issue for the foremost i don't want to completely blame everybody for having crazy reaction because it's what i want so i went backwards yes of the thing is that they didn't have the peace in place what they needed to do was say here's how we're gonna advertise on instagram they don't know the answer to that question so they did was they rewrote their terms of service to enable them to share data face book and to you know allow this narrow set of uses we're gonna put ads around your photos that's great they still don't know how they're gonna sell the ads if they had said here's how we're gonna monetize instagram uh... here's a list of like five specific ad types are going to do and and we've worked changed the terms are affected i think he would focus on the specifics may never will book the legal they don't know the answer uh... and i think i think racer and that's the biggest dangers they don't know the answer to how they're gonna make money and i think it out why why change it now why can you have to expect something like this i think they changed it because they needed to share some data with face book uh... in order to share some data that they change some language about and this is actually thing their message we change their terms of service so that we can share data with face right that was the p r headline in terms of service which that should have said that right well that's i was that i was the first mistake right but i you know we mentioned face book the opposite face but we need a sense and aided to them we need to have to use but they didn't say so people read the terms and said all i get it this is how to make money we need we needed they they they should have just said look we need zuckerberg needs a personally look through every photo uh... to see if there's something that turns him on right uh... so we just have to alter our terms of service or what's you know my question for instagram is are they gonna ever will they get past this but they now the poster child for bad terms of service and collect confusion is that part of the brand uh... i think that i think that the instagram i think that this kind of tarnish their moment i think that this is i think instagram was but you know sweaters dot all kinds of horrible things and that the media made a big deal out of like all the grass of stuff they've done towards developers and you know it there was a lot of there's a big brouhaha everybody was very upset for a week and then a new story came up and the rest of the world went on using twitter as they had previously which is using the twitter out right now you have just they adjusted to the change the difference between our lives there's a difference between this tiny community of pissed off mac developers you're allowed in vocal and and wanna believe they run the internet you know they don't uh... and there's you know that that's great they can leave whatever they want making dot apt dot net and you talk about mac to see is a resident here there's a big difference between that and like a characterization of the people on apt dot net that's that's what i believe they do uh... and i'm not saying i can't i must and how much better they are there really else that's not accurate and there's a difference between that and uh... people saying or use instagram or the consul for but what about that's like real you know i mean there's definitely now in in the i mean the fact that look the fact that this exists i just want to once again yeah but i thought i thought i'd just to be clear like i wanted point out how what a big deal this is here's the cover of us weekly okay here's the page of the uh... story about it like it's like the first thing that possibly needed you to know about uh... i do think that they are that i do think that their image has been tainted might think that the next time look it's like but i hear people say crazy things about technology all the time i heard people talking in the airport a few weeks ago about how samsung uh... one of court case against apple and apple isn't two billion dollars uh... you know like people don't know what's up with people regular people out in the world don't know what they don't know you know frankly and i don't know what i do but i think you have to understand that there are all sorts of crazy rumors about stuff and if you have to ask is it going to be a deterrent when somebody gets their phone for the first time and all the French are instagram it is a no i'm gonna use what he can use instead of instagram to share your pictures of cool filters do you know the twitter now has filters or google plus like you don't care about that stuff you know that sharing photos with cool filters happens on instagram and where else do you do it you like exactly how we nine times out of ten or nine nine hundred times press the agree button i think he will say like you know i'll take my chances so i do i do think it's hard issues their image for a moment i do think they're gonna carry this around for a while but i don't think it'll actually stop people i mean only the biggest nerds are going to like let me go this way is kim Kardashian still on instagram yes or no do we know did she quit i have a chance i'll bet you a thousand dollars that kim Kardashian is still on instagram you know why she got mad about it on twitter for ten minutes and then got her nails done and forgot about it and she moved on to like you know whatever the next thing that kim Kardashian was talking to you uh... has not posted a photo of herself on the service since necessary words general lawyers look into it i mean it has been the holidays but actually while we're looking this up to get rid of our account she delete her account no i think she has no well here's what she said on twitter i really loved instagram and you review this policy i don't think it's fair four days ago she posted gingerbread house she's fine listen to this if instagram can sell her images says our kardashian pal she has to quit because that leaves her with no control minister dash in palestine canal uh... uh... remind me because of the uh... this doesn't mind a little bit of a twitter's promoted tweets and like the right half tax that the kind of happened no one cared that i there was a it was a a couple of a background is always a good money is the you people don't want to be that other companies have to make money it's like a face books promoted right out so the same thing right like i really want somebody see one of my like face books as something to compete based on the and speed sat you care i don't think i'm offended i'm offended about all of that and this is this is a classic we should move on to the topics and a board of this but this the class i think this is a classic internet move i think that we're i think that the internet has made something i'd just like the randy zuckerberg angry tweets to cali i think the internet loves to make mountains out of molehills and i think that this is not enough this is a combination of side of people not knowing an understanding writing before they understood uh... the you know this is that this is that what is the winston churchill quote it's like a lie will go around the world twice before the truth has a chance to put its shoes on earth boots are pants on or something mrs cut this is a classic humanity that we love the stuff that sounds the worst and it's and we love to gossip and it goes you know it new travels far faster than the truth the truth never get the word naturalize uh... and and this is just another case of of society latching onto bs and and not letting go you know and i think that i'm and i think that that you know i don't think it's a remise gonna have a there's gonna be a material impact them but also doesn't matter because their business is part of facebook business and it's either gonna be a write down to the maybe a billion dollar write down from facebook or not and i don't think that they're a billion dollar write down at this point uh... i think face a face it has bigger it's funny to space but like they so obviously don't care you know seriously launched at the same the same week of the instrument controversy uh... uh... note dot poke uh... the test of you can pay a dollar to message people that's right not friend out which is like the shadiest thing i've ever so so let's actually have a that i want to have a poke as well and snapchat uh... of course we have to have a snapchat but uh... so this dot pay pay a dollar to message someone i just want to understand the the the the logic here so i'm on face book yet and i a m friends i'd see i'm like searching for something writer i see and i see somebody who is interested in a that is a verbatim i want to talk to me about a friend of the friends of any of their friends so i pay a dollar to face book and they let me send that person a message yet that the idea that's the idea and they think this is a bit profitable part of their business now that they did what they told alice was this will help us cut down on spam which i don't understand because it happens hammers said how can you use if you have friends of people right there is like their they're seeing if it you know if they're seeing people are inch into it it's like it they're basically copying idea from when right if you sign up like lincoln premium or whatever it is the difference to me is that we can is explicitly like a social network for business it's for businesses right and you would you would pay as a business to talk to somebody one doctor right when it's like that makes sense and face what it's like you know who's gonna pay a dollar to talk to me is like jerks high school creepy like yeah their their back yeah and i don't know if i were a dirt bag if it's not a lot of things but uh... i don't i feel like i would just find some other avenues uh... i would just not was move on in the dollar seems to go off ought to pay to send it to throw their it's down the dollar might actually be a low end here this is the results of money to space what keeps on trying to extract real money from people in exchange for increasingly dumber things so they've been pushing face but gifts for like well forever right give us a dollar will put like a president on your friends page it's like this nobody buys this which is why i mean like wildly stupid in my opinion uh... i just don't get i don't know i mean other than you my space exists i feel like face books days are numbered uh... me i just feel like you're not anymore or you all over it and i'm all over the new master uh... and our eyes and love it business i'm i'm loving now i i first young money like in your mind is just a case of music service basically but they seem to be fully almost a hundred percent focus on music and like list to name it and like connecting with artists i mean could any of those terrible uh... new metal bands really two thousands existed without my space i mean it's a much easier to isn't it a good part of my space really i think so yeah i know i i think we can only yet not guilty was a real happy for my space but they have to do is that they needed by space to help them but i think that uh... no i don't have the new my space is not is nothing right now but i have no strong opinion on the except that i don't need another social network and i certainly don't need other way to connect with musicians uh... or or needless in the music so i'm not gonna i'm not i don't see myself using it uh... i mean this point if your social network you really have to justify your existence in some meaningful way beyond like we have a different interface in face book right so that i think that's a lot of a face book so that is snapshot and that it was funny is that face book op it's so fast uh... but that was snapchat right now staff that was a social network that allowed you to basically not keep a record of what you do uh... into communicate using internet always great tools we have now without the creepy permanence of the internet always tools we have now uh... it would apparently became an incident i didn't use the because i don't have anybody sex when i mean i i i have a my my uh... brothers uh... girlfriend katie who writes about the speed is obsessed with uh... i'd be on say his fiance is obsessed with snapchat to the point where like i've had a couple meals with her where she'd like won't stop talking about it and i have to have had after if she's like being paid by step she is really into the copy pages really into the idea but that that for some reason and um... not for sexting or anything just for a bit sending weird stop the people and uh... and so i i signed up for it uh... and uh... and i i played around with that i think i've seen it already but i've i mean to me like there's only we really is only one use right i mean it's for texting okay it's very different but i don't get rid on pics uh... so i like and like and yeah you know is it for underage people sending around like new photos probably cuz that's what kids do right now it is that i'm told i mean uh... you know a t t uh... offers their unlimited sexting plans i have to say about that for a moment i don't know what i think is i think there is a real beyond just that i think there's a real fear that like you know we'll have some conversation i am or tax to wrap and then you know show it to somebody else right uh... and that's like that you can be people are afraid of that right this is really you this actually it's back to that that conversation about randy zuckerberg photo which is you know digital etiquette and and what we think of his what is proprieties and what is not and i think that um... uh... you know we have to people can have to deal with the fact that they do if they're living their lives online that that trip that digital breadcrumb trail is forever right that's what i'm saying but so that's a snapchat you're saying like to be a new social network at the office in face but can't you know i think that's why snapchat was successful even if they're not really not staging their positioning their positioning is all wrong i mean yes maybe video offered is like that they weren't like you know what this gives you an opportunity to communicate people not have to worry about leaving this this trail of breadcrumbs it or let you know having them brief posted on somebody else's service or whatever it it's the position was like share hot picks with your friends now they've been given getting away with they've been back in the debate back away from it and that they realize that like being the service that like sixteen-year-olds used to send you photos is probably not a sustainable business or is it or is it the most historic about the fact that i don't have a life that it was a year like what is a never-ending market it's sixteen girls who are accepted zero making bad decisions like that market never ends this i don't have their all you do for six years making poor choices but about their bodies in there and then and there but so it's funny is that you have a sort of immediately launched hope which they developed in like twelve days yes you know so so by the way so so yes a face book launch a basically competing app which is both which is fine because face book it's a time tire distance is predicated in zuckerberg even said this and an intuitive to a weird and upsetting creepy degree that face book is predicated on knowing the real you like knowing the actual me like the tell for the actual josh joplin they don't want they want crazy man sixty nine or whatever my other analyst i thought i liked it that is a real account by the way on what worded crazy man sixty-nine on twitter yes uh... sorry buddy you know what your your that's your fault for making using that name so softball to distal i'd like to see me uh... his last week is you look at him finder also i don't want me for it to daniel tosh about how long you prolly lost in bed this is a four-second i thought i told you this is my alternate account and i thought that i ran out of gas going around her after filling out and it was a hybrid that's the truth it today not bailed possible burns that that that's so and you were great a while your rhymes are tight keep it go away for a second i was going to i was going to appoint that's amazing which i'm completely off trip off track from do you know as what point i was making just before you certain and i think that you know i think so you can predict a renown that that their entire existence is predicated on knowing the real you using the real you to make money uh... and and and this is like of years of private way to message people because it's not just a kid it can also be anonymous you know and i think it's weird that they so once again in on that game but you know jason calc anis uh... wrote and i and i really cannot talk about him or or even prolly agree with him on things but you know he's a smart guy and he wrote uh... this great piece about which is basically what why is face book making such a big deal out of getting into this game and they should be focusing on on what their product what kind of revenue stream their product is going to generate or how it continues to generate revenue and this is not a revenue generator unless must again emerge that dollar you can't that dollar message services that chat it's like pay a dollar to send an anonymous image to sell one of the fact that paid free idea face book not but no jay did the peace is really good and it's on the i think it's on his uh... launch logger something i read the house you know it's a piece for us which was uh... that yes focused their chance of competing right was is actually for pro-clinic just rumors and i'll repeat pieces like people don't want people don't believe face because you're throwing away they believe they're gonna take everything keep everything like build some perfect advertising profile view and so they're not used to and i don't even know the numbers for pro-clinic are now and i don't know if people are using it no one is brought up i think it's a great use of that brand you know if it's a first launch hope was like the future that was the thing you did with face book that doesn't it but that was a face but they were like we can set up a plan there's nothing sensitive about that also face but isn't a bad idea right well as i was like baby college face book before that right but like uh... it's a it's a good use of the branch seven days and use it certainly have no desire to give this is actually a sender side no desire to give face book and i think i made it prudently but they are a good place and those things to get yeah and i mean it and i think it's like it's it's from it's really important to to think about well first off with what's the point of the service i mean and how does it me how are most of the interactive i mean do you have a reason to use snapchat no exactly no right sadly now but i'm just saying all the people who who need to see my dog can see my dog well it is bold and and i don't know i think that there is that i don't think that is that true deeply into the that is deeply well i think i'm moving on to come to a life you're older i just had a birthday and so speaking speaking to you guys at the the dong list is closed begin dongs uh... but that's at snapchat it returns out there that they've got some security issues they had a bug i think it was covered last week that that you could see the videos you send people after the period with the you could watch them i think it's a little bit of a setback and poke but i think what kind of shoe yesterday i don't know no snapchat had an issue snapchat we ran snapchat at this time for a like today has again i a west bug where you can see your videos the videos that were sent to you uh... so you know that's the thing is ultimately uh... these are really they're not really private and there's always gonna be somewhere around it's a concept picture hits somebody else's phone it to keep the phone and there's gonna be some way to get out and i think that there's also a very that you can do to be able to save these photos right now it's it's not check in face book so it is like it's there's a photo file to me the without you just have a file browser for i thought you could just grab these right and i think once you create you know bits people can copy them spend one way or another i think that's like fairly obvious and but right now it's like a m quoted bbm used to have a career seats uh... like back today and i remember jacob schulman tell me about all these like the bm acts he'd done so you read messages without letting people know that he'd read the messages like it's just a minute it's the same thing it's p teenagers are like a very i make bad decisions are found and be throughout how to avoid that technology in place to insulate them from this bad decisions they're good at it you know like this that's just the way it goes and i think that um... i think that i think i think the time has come or we have a sense like the instagram stuff you know people need to really start thinking about what it is that they what is there doing what they want a service for you know that the can just be good every society up for a every news serves me and we have this you know in our industry it's it's like this desire to use the new thing and i think a lot of time you can rush to use the new thing without thinking like what is the new thing do for me exactly or what is this do that other things don't do uh... and i think that that i'm not saying let's not use new things cuz i love to things but i am saying that maybe it's a tiny bit more of critical thought behind what it is we want to do with them and how we want to interact with the world using the services beneficial also understanding what what terms of service meeting verses right thinking you understand i think i i i imagine book at a decent loss because the cost to try was nothing there's nothing i kept it around yet but but you have to want like if you're a m if you're in of face book user you have to want to communicate the way pope wants you to communicate in how many face book users like oh man finally i can send a street secret messages people that i think all this time i've been interactive face book the service let's be connect with my family and friends but what i really wanted to do is send don photos to my head to my loved ones and i think that i think that the fact that i think that i think the dog for i've been on a set of use folks i can't i really can't i mean it crazy me sixty-nine is used by wanted only to extend extended sense that burns the handle top shit that if you have to do it in a discreet manner retarget but i'll get catch on uh... i would have to have our list of topics anything uh... do you see the hobbit i was actually curious to see if it's in the hobbit i want i want i want to know the three-and-a-half hours of anything said miller uh... i don't i don't care and i read what you said i have not say thing i was like a mizer i just don't proceed in forty-eight friends and i think i have to go see because it because of the forty-eight friends right but you know i can we just like happen and walk out can i just want to see what it looks like that's all i want to see and i guess it's i hear the thing i i really really hate going to the movie theater that like it's i've got never do after seeing dark night rises in the theater uh... and uh... kisi just was says the worst experience i mean that's a thing like movie theaters are just bad experiences for seeing movies and if you want to hear the movie or in be comfortable uh... i thought i'd act i think i'd expect something i think it's great i got max is what we do worth going to that i i i person not a big i'm max fan so i know that sacrilegious to say uh... i'm a gold family quentin tarantino i don't fashion movie at uh... but uh... yeah i just know i was like the level of interest in the hobbit that i have right now is could not be lower yes i think is fairly bad movie but i think i have to see it i mean i don't know does he had to see it for us which is men are you and are you and i don't like we ran a review of it like yeah right somebody somebody somebody else on and i was a bit forty-eight friends i just want to know what that's like just a little bit of a let's go to break into the theater c s rossi me so they get a break in you can't write it might take it but i just wanna see it you know it why you just buy a ticket and we can see a little bit but other than leave as we're doing it yes that's actually what we should talk about uh... yet is that like of c f we're going to see a again and just over a week yeah you guys are realizes the c f twenty thirteen is happening in the verge will be there uh... in full force course yes uh... and this could be a really interesting c s and what we're gonna put will put some some info about c s activities up on the site very soon yes um... this to me really interesting c s because a lot of the big players are not going to be there in any uh... meaningful way like microsoft for instance is not going to be there and i think everybody's got seems like they've got scaled very scaled down plans maybe i'm mistaken maybe we're gonna be blown away by something maybe this is the year that you know sharp just slaves it uh... it's like a four k man yet he may be any maybe but i don't know a lot of people just bought the rishi cds and i act don't four k is like it's cool but it's a far off dream at this point you know i don't think that there's me a big push for four k next year because the industry doesn't have the industry feels like changing up everything that they do at the moment when they haven't figured it out now i think that once again this was happening last year we saw a ton of smart t v stuff happening with everybody anticipating that apple was going to introduce something they had only beat them to the punch everything that was introduced last year is essentially a failure nobody cares about it every talks about it a member of the respect motion control to admit what phillips had but not phillips uh... you know samsung lg and motion controlled member that every time other cool motion control t v's work like now nobody talks about it nobody cares about it voice control nobody talked about it because about it smart t v's are basically a non thing you're either using xbox or roku or an apple t t v get smart t v content and in my favorite saturday year has been most t v's our smart t v's and so i can't you made all the t v's smart t v now i mean this is like using that my t v this is like my t v is that is a three d t v and i will never ever use it three d functionality like just because you put a feature in it doesn't mean people are going to use it and it's not it certainly doesn't make that it doesn't show that there's any uptick in in in use it just shows that you put the feature into the t because it was cheap enough for you to do it was it was a new threat if you give it to the report said no one's using smart t v features just kind of a no-brainer report i was smart t v and i use i'd i'd never ever touch the smart t v just have a smart blue ray player but there are three i think three things in my in my yet set up that they're smart and i never and open up my many for the first time right here you know that the sucks nevermind so that they really saw an interview back you know the thing is that like the smart cities like that internals of them have to get better at the same rate that like smartphone internals get better for that experience to be good and it's like why would you put like a gigahertz snapdragon your t v to use three apps you never going to use like so there's no incentive to do it and you can't the market doesn't change fast enough like i agree with you johnson c s is a very very muted i think there's any a lot of uh... as talking to somebody in the industry weeks ago and i was like c s three is always a series of elaborate lies from t v manufacturers and cable companies yeah and they're like that that's what we do uh... i think i i think i think that actually because as in in technology the lies are are starting are more see-through now and i think that you know that putting your money your money where your mouth is is actually you know as consumers as a growing uh... massive consumers adopting except in use to have real technology in their lives and there's a pretty interesting data uh... from christmas sales in something like some crazy uptick in smartphone tablet ownership but three hundred fifty percent up year over year uh... and you know half of that stuff was tablets you know i think it's not one in four americans has a tablet i think is that is the statistic please i more more than the readers of this person to get an ad and it's like you know as consumers get in touch with real technology that is actually like kind of life changing and meaningful and execute and delivers on the stuff that they have been told it's going to deliver on you know when you when you use an ipad you really get it for the first time you like of this is actually doing something that that i was promised and it delivers you know i think that this that this is the c s trend of showing up putting on an exciting show talking about how your new technology somehow better than everybody else's new technology it's like the folder really has to be there the delivery really have to be there and i think that c s is hurt by i think the whole idea of a consumer electronic show is hurt by the sheer amount of bs that will not be a star there but i think you know i think for until the smartphone era right you could go to c s uh... and this is true this is why c s is being important you would go there and every company there were to lay out some vision of everyone is going to have this product everyone's gonna have a smart toaster or uh... three d t v or whatever it is and it turns out the product everybody ended up having was a smartphone and now that everybody has a smartphone you have to convince them that they're gonna get something else on top of it not and that's something else nobody knows that that is because it seems like almost every product can be done good enough by a smartphone so appointee camera like creator right because you can just get a smart all this like crazy home control stuff crater because you can just like to do it in a smart why would you install a massive home control rager home automation rate like have a dedicated pc when you can sell it three of those like belkin we know like white switches and control for a start right right that's what i see all got all this uh... with the nike fuel ban in the fit that all that stuff uh... i bought one for uh... back here on for a brother-in-law they have not once use their laptop to interact with the fit right they they're only using their items in because it's a better experience every single thing is collapsing into well i have a smartphone and then secondarily to i have a tablet you know i i have actually i'm only using my laptop from a home for the holidays right only using a laptop money so i get it into like serious work with it uh... i've been using the i've had an excess and like almost exclusively uh... this entire time i haven't like in drawn back to the laptop that's that's real and that's like uh... you know we're buying a new t v and we just to this crowd crazy roundup of uh... windows eight all-in-one touch computers and i i'm states a better t m seriously considering just buying a windows a like touch t v for that things right now for some it because it is a threat it seems smarter to me that in spending out why would i spend eight hundred dollars on a forty inch t v records for eight hundred dollars on a twenty-seven inch windows why you just and why you spend like three or four hundred dollars on that forty inch t v and get like an apple t v or a roca because that that's like why don't want all this boxes and i just don't want one dot one or two o'clock swan box you might but that's the thing it's a to me it's like i don't this is a problem here for the other it's a top box like a big screen later i thought you want that i i i would yeah i would get the dumb display get the box it however that that's it but so that's a thing you're saying you would get the dumb display but the industries and to not sell you a dumb this and i get that that the industry is failing to me we know they're failing us and that there's something on it was played the nobody's using how many i think that's not all across the every piece industry is okay to consume our traction what type of consumer electronics in shanghai it is better than my smartphone right what's also it's also it's also trying to justify you know i mean i just think that he'd given our act of the economic state of the world right now uh... trying to justify a secondary purchase of a you know you there's sir i think we we we there are certain things you need right in your house where you you've got to have a t v right yet you've got to have a team in most consumers will say well i need out of t v at least in my living room and it's got to be hooked up to cable that's a bear bear minimum right we've got a i have cable and t v i need to have a smartphone right now i don't think it's out what has reached the need to have at this point but it's getting pretty close i think we're right on you know we're we're teetering on the brink of the you need to have a tap okay and that's like a laptop or desktop that's it you're done you're basically done on your you need to have like small consumer electronics as t v's not small electronic but for a pricing standpoint are now relatively affordable and i think that i think that you know you really have to justify your existence uh... and and see estimate seems increasingly a place where justifying your existence is very difficult not only because you're surrounded by people doing the exact same thing because the things that you're talking about are actually non-essential right to make it out of the other point everything looks the same like where this point like all the harbor designs very ubiquitous you know i like every coming to showing off different size slates at the same operating system a little bit difference it's a software story now but c s as i said that as a hardware kind of it we're seeing that it's not as fine you guys it you know i think about how we used to uh... like three or four to see as some weird doing as it was a very dash focus for like that okay what what what are the camera stories here one of the rest top stories right the laptop stores and it's like do those exist anymore other is our camera story told me told c s uh... now i mean i think the last of the lasting that was excite me not ask the last days excite c s was like two years ago i think was the it was the a tricks right at like well this could be a charge hope so but it was the one one of the few things i can think of in the last few years of c s where i thought well we haven't seen this before right this we didn't expect this and this could actually be really cool like what if my smartphone became like uh... the heart and the brains of my laptop and i just took like this kind of shell in this phone and like that obviated the need for one of my piece of the cool idea awesome idea totally did not work total failure but but i think the fact that that that that's the last thing i think of that what happened last year not means nothing right it was like there's a little bit of a media but like that's it yeah as windows phone so that my presence was nothing new and it's got a very seen in windows eight was we'd already seen windows a and we already knew what was coming uh... and uh... and you know that that the surface and it's all just kind of variation on a theme at this point it's like i did it to get touch screen laptop or a laptop that is that also tablet you know or that's like that i mean but that's that's the same as you know i've had with it with a keyboard dot to me what it is it is right like well the service obviously different the unison i don't think it's a revolutionary concept in computing the way microsoft wanted to be at least and i don't think people are necessarily asking for that i i but so that the question is now what what next right and everybody says the next thing is a little bit i think we're actually in a valley you know i think we just happen to be in a valley when it comes to innovation and i think that or you could say it's a plateau either way i think that we've hit a point where there's been so much rapid-fire innovation of the last five or six years we're now just kinda coming to grips with what it's like to live with this innovation what it's supposed to do you know you barely had a chance to see what an ipad can do at this point i mean i don't think it's new we were nearly realize the full potential of something like an ipad or even a smartphone you know i mean in japan's people use a sparkles again on trains like we don't do that here in america brown and there are a million other examples you can use of ways that smartphones can be used in a home automation is a place where how automation is on a new idea that someone were to make it simple enough prove that its energy efficient and prove that it's actually improvement your life in some way that you can afford that you want uh... that would be a big deal but that's all kind of time like you said to the brain of the smartphone to the existence of having this thing in your pocket right i think that i think i i i so i agree with you i think we we've we've hit the point where we've we put the computer in everybody's pocket which is a remarkable thing to have done now the question is okay now what like what do you do now like rain you and i actually think the weights the way things will look for people in the future is you will have like the one big desktop computer in your home and then you have like phones and tablets like revolve around it in the cloud so that your photos don't just go to face booker dropbox boxer cost or whatever they actually landed home and you have more control wait you think you actually you think you were a certain that's not the right the part people just do not want desktops you know i i think i think people are going to stop buying laptops which are already seeing happening right but the trend towards buying tablets and so on tops israel uh... i just bought for christmas about my mom and you i've had and so the laptop right she's never expressed any interest in owning a laptop she's had one uh... but she has a combination i'm acting at that time that's what you want to be the election start going back to desktops again say i want some physical location for my product well i think you are i think people are going to want a big screen and i think they're going to want like storage and like he take a lot of photos on your phone i think you want to see that money it's it's the cloud now it's what they were going to say it's in the cloud now they got there's there's no twenty one inch screen for you to look at the clock justin you have a desktop here in this one you know it's funny i was talking last night about uh... thinking that i maybe want to get the desktop uh... you know we're moving to a new office i was thinking maybe i would get a desktop for the office and just use that for work uh... my also you know if i did because i have a home i got i don't nothing i do requires a desktop i mean it is don't see any need for it and you know i'm not e you know it just doesn't make any sense to me i can't understand why you have like a you have a time capsule and let's say i'm trying to remember what your setup is as you told me so you have someplace like their storage in your life your computer's all back up to some i i i'm now backing up exclusively to crash plan are really in the cloud yet in fact i'm actually i've i've paused a backup that i was doing of an old drive of mine to crash plan i think rash plan is brilliant it takes like all the guesswork out of this stuff and it's like a little bit it's a little bit more complex to set up into use then you know something like uh... time machine mhm right seems to be way more reliable and i don't have to worry about my stuff disappearing because it's redundantly backed up on a bunch of servers somewhere uh... it's it's it's quite again is no physical location yeah i'm over i mean the whole the whole i mean the whole idea physical storage to me seems like ridiculously hopelessly i'm out it and like when i open i thought it downloads my photos for my photo stream it seems like the most archaic it's a very active no really does it just seems like does it's puzzling to me why would even exist in that manner like right here i thought the folder should be issued your i thought it should be like a folder like a like a dropbox or google drive folder on your computer that they just exist in when that like their their dates but you have to open i photo to get the photos down to your computer hilarious isn't so it does it's the part of it that does the sinking right like the business and bizarre like i don't even understand why i want to store stuff like itunes again i was talking to you know we talked about before but right if you have brian williams a rubs like do you still use it is he's like yeah i know it to me the idea of opening it to the listen music is just a totally alien to me now i hardly ever do it ages and not how i ingest or experienced up and so i think that i think that that st you know i mean could collect the cloud is obviously where everything is headed me look we're using a cloud service right now have this conversation you know i love the fact that i don't have to open skype to do what we're doing i mean it's a terrible also like also it's just it's a better like this is extensible like that we're using this hangout toolbox which is a new can stalled to the lower thirds but to me this is such an amazing the concept of this is in a browser you can do this on a chrome book that's two hundred fifty dollars there's nothing happening here that can happen on the two hundred or grow which to me is the most brilliant thing in the world and i think that um... you know what i think about my phone my tablet everything that i do i guess it download stuff but ultimately everything i'm doing like if i'm not playing a game is cloud based right whether it's social whether it's reading you know if i'm using but i use reader on my iphone on my ipad uh... and it some other are assessed off on my uh... products but you know they're pulling down stuff but essentially it's pulling from the cloud it's not like i had those don't need to be there they could i could view them only in cloud form new stories uh... twitter is all obviously cloud to instagram is all cloud like i'm not storing instagram for a while but i'm thinking like if i had a like build the how like the house that i wanted you would have like in i'm acting more in my office with like hard drives there for all the stuff that i don't want to put in the cloud and i want to keep near right what what what what what what is that what would that be i mean i heard right your hard drive is more likely to fail your personal hardware really i'm not saying it was a lot like backed up the like the photos and i take what when i download them from the cloud every time i look at a photo that i think uh... my niece and nephew they watch they just want health right from itunes they've downloaded it to one of the computers i don't stream that from itunes every single time i want to watch it and sometimes like they go in cars and i don't like you know i mean you know what there's definitely no there's definitely situations where you want stuff locally stored uh... but it's i mean i'm just like that pains to think of when those situations happen for me you know like like i i get that you had your kids go in a car and they want to watch a movie on an ipad and you need to download the mood to the ipad okay fine which the checkbox says download this the ipad that's what that's what that's what you know that's what um... google services do like if you write get something on their t v whatever you know they're history story if you can download it or you can stream it but you know it and it comes to pictures are looking before as every time we're going to thumbnails the need to know where you look at where we need to for as on your regular size monitor you know even on a even on a ten eighty hd tv you're not for as a spike in it way out of the vicinity of what for a recipe but it is one of the men endlessly i'm not a bit but that's fine but i mean on a decent internet connection you know i think that what i'm saying is i think to bring us all the back to see yes i think the next part of this puzzle is okay now we have a fifty disparate things we have sixty cloud services but an average human being doesn't know what to use how to use it how to connect a phone to their tablets that right how to make how did you bring all the stuff the air is why the living room is holy grail right but i mean this is housekeeping though ultimately you know i will say that it's what it's it's housekeeping only in a sense that like instead of their is housekeeping assessments to build a house writing it's we've we've dumped a bunch of like cement in like two by four certainly in a yard<|cs|><|translate|> enjoy this really a stack of i've just been trying to get over there actually said like here's the here's how you should look failure rate like this will never break that would be like you will never lose data on this product that would be a revolutionary product will be a physical drive you'd lose it and move out if i'm let's just say it's up to me to make sure that the physical drive doesn't get lost alright that i don't it doesn't get burned up in a fire or don't in some water if you can make a drive that was like no mechanical failure no data loss like absolutely resilient and redundant in some way that meant it would never ever lose my data i would use local storage a lot more i would download things a lot more often i just don't trust i don't trust my hard drives i don't trust this equipment to store my most important things what i do trust is an array of servers and and drive somewhere that are like essentially infinitely redundant you know i believe that google will do a better job managing my data than i will i believe that google has more redundancies in place than i do i believe that crash plan has more redundancies in place that dropbox has more redundancies in place you know why that's their business their business is data storage and so like i think that would be a great hurdle to jump over but i do think getting sorry getting back to the the living room idea of this you know i do think there is the question of making all this stuff work i mean look i am we had christmas dinner a few days ago and katie's uncle who is in his seventies uh... has uh... had just gotten an ipad and he was setting up for the first time and man he knew nothing about it he did not know how to send out any he never would have been able to figure out how to set it up and like when he was using it for the first time he did not attach it it was crazy to me seen someone like he was like try to get in there with his fingernail and i think that the aggressively talent but i don't know how to i think just touch it like you're just you know like you're pointing out something on a page that you was even i couldn't explain how to touch it properly is that it was it like something he was used to this bad like you know but he was like he was interacting with the buttons like they were physical buttons like you had to like pressed down on the harder get your like get it on edge on them somehow like it was just a bit of but but the thing is like i said i buy cloud forum and i thought like god in a million years most people cannot figure out how to get the stuff working properly you know cannot figure out that's the thing about google that i think that they don't get i don't know if they get enough credit for it you know when you set up a gmail account like your stuff is there you know the password you gmail account like you can just get it that stuff there's a place to click on it it's wherever you go there is no set up you know you're not downloading anything you don't have to connect anything there's no sinking it's like it's just there and like now they've integrated a bunch of their services uh... you know like targeted as a course which the review yeah and i just that's just like an honest answer is that it's targeted ads that's all what that's exactly what they spoke does twenty four seven as i like oh i guess you hate face book to you know like how about you know it's like i don't have a problem targeted ads like they don't bother me they don't bother me my email even because it's just like a teen reading words but the point is that their stuff sinks in works and when you get an android phone and you put your gmail account in but you get your calendar you get your contact you get if you are a drive user you download driving you say i want to use this team account of a senior contest are like to me like that they actually have been they've been solving the problem all along and that's where everybody else has to play catch up to take put your t v down your house putting your gmail account all the sudden like all your content but i mean that would be it that would be a problem solver they have offset done that if i think that they try and fail to do that but i think there is a lack of connectivity between things in lack of like understanding for most people how to make them really useful you know i don't think i thought provides the seamless like wonderful elegant experience for it right provides a kind of confusing experience so i think that for for t v makers or for set-top box makers or for people who are doing home automation are talking about the living room or the household to make things work together is would be a big is that is that building the house new line is that we think yeah i mean i that that's a it's it's taking my mom when she'd uh... we are i had but what's what she was saying like the week before christmas was here no circuit for reading and we can figure out without cement issues being very opaque it turns out that she just meant that uh... when you get when you have a no-key going to barnes noble they let you read for free for an hour and so she disappointed when you got to the i've had no cuz i was like what it has l t like you don't need the free our life i'd barnes noble joseph it's it's way better for me and like yeah what's which is happened by that it's it's this the level of confusion over this stuff unit that i keep on looking at the samsung ads where they that sharing the videos but touching together touched a share or nfc but any answer a complete lie because the videos and transfer just by touching with after co-op to the you know i mean like yeah that's not real but that is the vision that there and it's it's not even to do it uh... but that's a vision that's out there in the world like once you get this stuff you start doing all these amazing things yeah the reality is once you get the stuff you have to start making this endless series of decisions over what services you're going to use over whether you trust to all the story or data or you trust instrument also your photos or whatever the media sign was going to do or how much you want to use face book to connect to your family and like this and series of decisions is like impossible but i also think that you know all i agree with that and i don't think it's an summit in the easier means answer that you all kinds of weird samsung stuff like they've got their services and keys there and i call this dumb chance that nobody's copy right here and all the all the extra stuff that they've included that are like they've thrown up barriers you know you know i do think i do think that you know apple still gets it most right with the just works scenario and it for most things like pressing simple setup but i do think there is like removing those barriers removing this this that decision-making process to some degree uh... and letting things be fluid i think alike what what technology needs to do now is focus on like a reduction in friction when i see the share screen even an android when you see like the how you share like it makes sense it does make sense it makes more sense of what apple does but there's stuff like that i i i think that that's one of the things all over i a l s since i've been using iphone again i'm just like man the level of friction that happens here the lack of fluidity between things just seems crazy to me you know uh... and i think that move reducing friction is a big challenge in technology and i think that the reason the challenge now that it should be in the spotlights because regular humans are using to this is not for just us is not your for just nerds it's not like and i do a really complex setup and i know to go through all the steps i'm happy to choose a destinations and sources that's us but most people in the people who are docking those one in four you know the three hundred fifty percent increasing purchases on smart from tablets that's in that world and at some point you're either gonna like drown in these options or someone's gonna find a way to like three or flotation device so if it works yes exactly something about poetic vision i mean there are nodes and their connections the nose of the hardware work report that it's there the connection is how do we get there at how do you think right now incremental improvement in the in the hardware i think the software has been incrementally improved to since i found the first i found writing to the last big leap in in in software thinking i think comes from what google did with ice cream sandwich and what they've pioneered since then like i think in terms of fluidity and i think that you know i think that there's a the whole range of thinking you know the ipad interface is not the best the ipad can be i don't think that it was made for the act think it was made just it was a scaled up you know i thought so i think that now that me ross what what is your exact question i mean i kind of cut you know as it is that question is an idea that i connect this idea uh... i was gonna tell about where border faces are just different kinds of way of interacting with like that's that's more looking i'd guilty pleasure i don't think it's actually a big big deal this year but it's not a wish it would be well i mean i guess with wearable gifted what is the question you know what is the situation where physical of a more physical interaction makes uh... but i don't like talking to my phone or tablet like to be incredibly uncomfortable and and cap often counterproductive and uh... and slower than tiny when you're actually interesting is on other there are two things i do a seri basically at four five times a week uses a set alarms which is it's actually good at yes i think faster than mocking with the clock uh... and i use it to make a phone call and i use it said i ask it to call the car service in brooklyn that use what's funny is that about i would say quarter of the time i pick up the phone and so saying call you know car service i just ask it for a car it's funny to me that that's the thing that actually do is i don't want to like skip the step of i want to call a car service at the top the operator i just want a telephone that one i want to you know uh... and i think that's where those interfaces need to go the art for this basic set of phone functions to amassing for the satellite life functions which is and a car and i think they're going to do that i think and i think that i have to say i think this is one of the places where where google now gets things you know not always right but often right where it where assumes where it assumes something and and does tended assume correctly yeah about what your what your desired action is i think so i think i've been using access for and i really think google now is destined to become the home screen i think it's right now it's hidden away in this this piece because it's not the outside terribly useful but it should at least be a widget issue was that you know they're adding cards to it it gets more useful time i do i think it is getting that like i see it as the home the strength of without a phone i turn on and lock it in to show some stuff it's going on and it's basically if you it's most basic level it's just automatic widgets right false deciding what we do you think it's a very need to see i mean it's time it's time it's like you know search time location which is this alternately you know but i do think that that uh... you know asking it to do something is really not but asking a computer do something is what we know how to do it's what we used to do it you know i'm it's i'm more likely to get the result i want when i type in the google than i am when i ask you to do i thought i said it series most useful for uh... locating things making phone calls but when you have when your hands are full that to me has been the thing that i found this year is that if i'm walking around or if i have like a couple things in my hands i need to get a phone number i need to make a call that stuff is like it's like it is like the assistant portion of it really functioning well but i think that in terms of being able to take action in your life it it doesn't it does fall short and i think the talking to a phone is not the most useful way to get information talking to a talk to computers not the best way to interact with i certainly like maybe you'll sit around dictate uh... they're writing my my brain doesn't form thoughts like that maybe because i write but my brain just doesn't work i can't think of clearly form questions or actions but in that way and as a result of his privacy thinking of this i want to believe here you say that well that's you definitely don't want to be in a car with your friends and you know dictating a text message to somebody that's obviously not ideal so i think that i think that i think the voice stuff is a little bit of a red herring i think it's just like i think it just didn't put in general like the more inputs the better you know the more it knows you're doing the better if it knows like where you are what the time of day is in what you just search for uh... you know that's that's really helpful so anyhow we should wrap up uh... unless there's anything else we need to talk about not really it's possible uh... by the way that was the most depressing c as pretty i think we've ever done it but i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i'll be honest in a c s is is uh... is it has historically been a gadget show uh... you know i think that that gadgets are interesting that are far from the most interesting happening right now you know i think that there it there's incremental innovation happening in hardware uh... i think that a higher resolution screen doesn't blow me that the blow me away at like you know do we know what that screens look like we know that there will be better screens we expect that faster cp is we expect that thinner lighter form factors we expect that the question is like one of the things we need now you know what the things that people haven't given us yet that we that that up a consumer needs or user needs to do something and like i just think that we are we have plateaued a bit in the hardware on the hardware front right now uh... it is a question of of good software in the difference between good software and bad software can completely change your opinion of the device you know i think i thought five is a beautiful piece of hardware i think the software tremendously diminishes often like how elegant of a device i think it is you know where is on it this is going around and attack press for weeks now why that is loaded up with google apps that's what i'm saying i'm not use i use chrome to browse are used uh... the new gmail app for my email and i use maps it exclusively like i won't touch their maps at all and it's not just because well he just doesn't have the information of the data i need it's not because i think the master to give me wrong directions i think but most of time at least here in new york and i'm looking at a map i'm looking for something really specific and if i can find that thing in my first try when i'm out and about and doing things then the map is essentially failed you know anyhow it's it's just like you know soft there's a lot to of work to do interaction with these devices and we have done we've barely scratched the surface of a it it was announced and it you know what you're after it's been essentially killed i still think that that interface was really intuitive and really natural in a lot of sense and i still don't feel that way when i'm using most modern devices like i don't feel that i'm using are really a really natural human targeted device i think i might still kind of grappling with the community it was a former function they like it was a great interface and did a lot of stuff whatever those cars itself though just couldn't do enough functionally event and then take me take that concept now and but match it to a quad core cpu within a crazy gp u and tons of ram i mean that that i mean that what we're doing i'm not saying the way hey let's go back to news web o s is interface but i'm saying that palm did something that i still look at at and think this was intuitive and human in a way that a lot of other interfaces are and why are we doing more of that why are we doing more stuff that feels right to a user you know another blackberry tennis trying some of that stuff and we'll see how well they pull it off uh... i think windows phone has done some uh... real thinking about what users are actually doing but i think we're lacking a general fluidity to these devices that would be that would really change our experience anyhow on that meaningful the uh... around but not so uh... so we will be so are really quickly i guess we should say uh... if you want to touch us you can email us at first cast of the verge dot com uh... you can leave a comment posted as a big influence on twitter uh... the verge is at verge delights reckless and dr to post the uh... ross is on a ross go no e on the end learning never any and uh... uh... but we will be at c s uh... we're going to be the big big plans uh... big exciting stuff happening there uh... ton of video tons of interviews uh... lives lots of live video uh... ninety-nine because i know that ross report we never were never even ninety minutes we're gonna have a ninety seconds on the verge all day long uh... so and crossing yourself and yeah ross i've never heard of a ross will be dead by the way about what we have a really good list of omit we're gonna have like a we have a live show in the morning we have ninety on ninety we have a live show in the evening uh... and and tons of live interviews and hands-on sand demos and all kinds of stuff like the whole time we're at c s we're bringing like a big crowd i think we don't have over was it sixty people over sixty at least over sixty people coming uh... which is insane we have a double wide trailer we can have like it's cool we're gonna be on the floor we're gonna be in the trailer uh... will have a post-op uh... problem monday about uh... you know our c s kind of outlook in preview and what's happening uh... and uh... uh... and now we've got awesome c s hot page where you can get all the stuff you can just plug right into it uh... which will be up uh... very shortly uh... and we're very excited about that within you kind of tweak on our design it's cool so yet so we're still very excited i see as a lot of stories to tell their we're gonna be time is a lot of stuff to cover the word be covered we're going to be uh... we are at the uh... official what is it our titles official opt act news source for c s uh... title exclusive uh... where they were also the official rosalie official inch interplanetary yeah use or for c s uh... which a lot of talk about but uh... that covers a number of uh... number of planets yet within our solar system uh... and uh... any opportunity big fund it to be a crazy week of news uh... and that's get started with the official start it c s is that the um... this should not have been the first big day for us to be the seventh that we are if this is certainly a but will be there many many before this can be used as always news beforehand and there's some live events the night uh... before so we'll be covering that stuff on and i don't know as they say if you want to tune into the best the best of the best minute here's the thing about c s a lot of crap there and uh... we will be doing a lot of avoiding the crap and giving you guys like the best of the best that is happening there uh... and you know we've got some i'm excited to see you know last year we experience our first year doing c s as the verge uh... and you know we found that stuff like our story streams were just like hugely helpful for to telling some of these stories about what had a thousand new laptops like see all of them like how do you understand what's going on in like so i think that we're gonna be in a lot on our on some of our tools that i think uh... yeah i feel are very helpful to telling these big messy stories like there's a thousand new point shoots thousand new routers i mean i think that about that do not army that's when you site rather than that anything anything else we had before we go now having here so yeah that's our cast i have a happy and safe new year even though uh... we know the terrible things about happened to you and your family rock and roll starts goodbye goodbye goodbye sir paired