 Hey, this is Josh from The Verge, and we're sitting here with Aaron Woodman from Microsoft. You're director of Microsoft, you work in the Windows Phone marketing team. And we're at CES. Again. This is a big once again. I mean, how many CES has this been for you? It's a really funny story, because I was here for our first one. Not the one where Bill just showed up. No, it's like 15 years ago. Were you? Yeah. You're not a product manager anymore? No, I was like a technical product manager at the time. You're like a Benjamin Button character. I've been here forever. My God. I've been waiting for phones for so long. Wow. So it's a really wonderful bookend for me, because it's like a first and last, and it feels amazing. Oh, yeah. That's right. That's sad. Yeah, it is kind of sad. But you're working on, you're doing Windows Phone stuff. You guys are doing a bunch of announcements here. Yeah, it's been a good year so far. AT&T, big AT&T partnership. You're doing LT devices. The Titan 2 is one of them, and the Nokia phone that everybody keeps talking about. The Lumia 900. And this must seem like a really exciting time, because you guys have spent, I mean, we saw, we first saw the phones at Mobile World Congress in 2009, 10? What year was it? 2010. Was it 10? Yeah. So it's been almost two years now that you guys introduced these, but it's starting now to seem like you're getting a little bit of traction. Yeah, I think what's amazing is, I think when we unveiled the phone initially, we surprised a lot of people. And I think since that time, we've actually had the chance to actually bring it to market and actually see it in consumers' hands. How do you think you surprise people? I mean, I was surprised when I saw it because of the design. Well, I think the design and actually the change of the approach. I think people kind of expected us to kind of evolve the product into kind of a slightly better version of Windows Mobile. And so the design is part of it, but I also think kind of rethinking how we deal with our partnerships and prioritize OEMs and mobile operators and really think and kind of take accountability for the consumer all up. It was a really different approach. And I think that's really starting to pay off in the last year where people have really been satisfied with the product. So do you know what your market share is right now? I don't know. It's not high. Yeah, I can imagine that. So the Nokia announcement is obviously a big deal. It seems to me like the partnership with Microsoft is pretty tight and you guys all collectively see it as we're going to make this flagship. Here is what the best of what Windows Phone can be and go out there and get it. So my first question is how do you balance that with these other partnerships? You make Samsung, I mean, you guys work with Samsung, HTC, LG. The first thing I would say is market share is one of those things that tends to be a trailing indicator versus a leading indicator. It's one of those things that happens as a successful product enters the market and a lot of people fall in love with it. And so I think we feel really good with kind of the trajectory in the sense that people are using the product, they are falling in love with it. People that are touching the new products are falling in love with it, giving us really positive reviews. Right. And then I think when you think about the step approach of how to actually build into scale there's a lot of things that go into that. And one of the, probably the most important is the partnerships. I mean obviously we don't make hardware. So partnering really closely with Nokia or Samsung or HTC really enable us to actually get to just greater choice and greater selection. In some cases like Nokia where they really bet the company's future on Windows phone that is a product and a strategy. This guy is super loud. It's fine, just keep going. I feel like this is a little bit. I was waiting to see how loud it would get. It's like a soundtrack. Yeah. You can see like it's like a lot of space. You're getting like really excited. Yeah. Sorry. No, but I think that partnership is such a critical piece and I think Nokia really embraces really similar values. Sorry, I'm sorry. This is just insane. But I think that idea of focus on design, I think that just feels really... Right. Speaking of design, at the Nokia booth they've got things like a NASA helmet next to... Or is it called a helmet? I feel like there should be a more elaborate name for it. But sitting next to an Lumia 900 in the case. And Nokia as a company is obviously taking design and kind of painting this picture. It's what they're known for. You know when you talk to consumers about the Nokia brand, even in the US, the memory that they have is just these really beautifully designed devices. That brand still has that affinity and it's not because they've got great marketing. It's because that's kind of their pedigree of their phones. But how do you maintain this relationship with Nokia, which is obviously very close, to keep other partners like Samsung and LG happy, and maintain devices? Well I think a lot of that is going to come from what Nokia is actually going to provide to the broad ecosystem. I think they're going to create demand and awareness for Windows Phone and I think Samsung and HTC are going to benefit that. My guess is if you'd ask other OEMs whether they would build an iPhone, they probably would, not because there's not just a great competitor in there that's built a great device, but there's opportunity and demand. And so I think those things are going to be really positive. Is Nokia building your iPhone? Is that what you're saying? No, I do think they're building an incredible device that will compete with the best devices in the market. But it is in a way, right, if the iPhone is the halo device for Apple, then the Lumia 900 is your halo device. Would you say that's correct? I think the Lumia 900 is going to be amazing. Like I've touched it and played with it. You won't say it's a halo device. Well I just think there's going to be a lot of different phones for a lot of different people. I think the Lumia 900 2 with the 16 megapixel camera is going to appeal to people in a very unique way. And so I don't want to presume to know what individual people want from a phone. I think that's one of the beautiful parts about phones. Aren't you marketing? Isn't that your job to know what individual people want on the phone? But what's funny about that is when you talk to consumers, what they want varies immensely. I actually prefer a smaller device because I actually put it in my front pocket. My wife carries a purse. She doesn't care how big the phone is. And so a larger phone actually is more comfortable for her. You think she'll be a fan of the 4.3 inch screen versus you're using a radar. I'm using a radar. Which is 3.7. Yeah, it feels really good. It's rounded. It doesn't catch on anybody. It's a really nice device. They've executed really well on it. Yeah, so I think she's kind of had some of the larger devices in the past and I think that's something that really appeals to her. It's just really easy to use and it's going to come down to that kind of personal preference. And it's one of the beautiful parts about Windows Phone is you're seeing kind of more selection of devices at individual carriers. Like if I look at HTC and Samsung at AT&T and then you add Nokia, that's actually a pretty good selection of a really high quality phone that allows people to choose. So Stephen Elab a couple of times yesterday on stage said that this is the first real Windows Phone. I asked him about this. Sure. I want to ask you, first off, do you bristle a little bit when you hear the first real Windows Phone? I've been telling Windows Phones for like a year. The thing I admire most is Stephen's passion. He's actually really fun to watch on stage. He's comfortable with it. That's a really diplomatic way to... Well, I think he's really passionate and I think so many great businesses are built around passionate people getting involved and caring deeply about their product. And at some level, like I have the most beautiful kids on the planet. I don't know if that's a true statement. Is that a true statement? Is that a empirical fact? You're like, they are the most... I can prove it. I've done studies. That's my first one for sure. Yeah. Well, you kind of have to choose. Your other children are going to really love that statement in a few years. I found this video, Dad. But I think that idea that people can get so in love with the products they want to build and have that amount of passion, I think that's really appealing. And it's appealing for me to hear that from Stephen. But does that really mean anything? Yeah. I think it means that people care about the quality of products that are put in the marketplace. So yeah, I think it articulates something that he believes and I think is true. When you touch their products, it doesn't feel like something that was thrown together. It was something that was thoughtful and they've thought through. And that includes the entire lineup. Even the 710, which is a much more reasonably priced device. I mean, it's going to be available, I think, at T-Mobile tomorrow. I mean, it's a really well thought through device. Yeah. We just did a review of it. Oh, really? I haven't seen it. I think we liked it. I can't remember. I can't remember. I didn't do the review. I can't remember what the score was. I don't think it was like a Lumia level score. I mean, it's a different device for a different person. But again, I think they thought through what they could do within that price range and bring a really quality device to a consumer. So I think they've really thought through it. So now you've got this device, this really beautiful Halo device that everybody's talking about. I love that you're going to use the Halo. Well, that's what it is. It's fine. I think that given what we've heard from Microsoft and Nokia about the partnership, given the level of hype and focus that's been put on this particular device and their line of these Lumia phones, I don't think it's unfair to say in North America the flagship or the Halo Windows phone device is the Lumia 900. So you've got the great phone. You've got an OS that I think a lot of people really do like. And I think it's great. I mean, I have my nitpicks, but I have my nitpicks with everything. But I do think, I mean, I played with the 900 today and I think, yeah, this is really sexy. I could live with this device. Yeah. And so now, and this is really where the marketing guy comes in, how do you make these things make an impact? I mean, you've got intense competition, right? Apple huge footprint, just kind of this endemic footprint. You've got Android, huge market share. People know them. People love them. They have not been, they don't have good memories, I think, of Microsoft in the mobile space. If you use Windows Mobile at its tail end, I think you probably walked away from it to something else because saying, I want a Blackberry or I want a iPhone. Your intent to repurchase. So how do you bring people back to this and how do you bring new people to it? I mean, what's the strategy? Yeah, I think it's probably going to come down to three things. The first thing is continue to build a great product. I think we're very, very focused that people will forgive low market share over some period of time, but there's not a lot of forgiveness for a poor product. So job number one is really just building a great quality product. Job number two then comes down to kind of working through our mobile operator partner, especially here in the US, where focusing and getting them to get passionate about the product and helping retail representatives really talk to consumers in a way that's credible and humble in terms of our history, but also true to the things that we are great at so that we can actually kind of qualify customers at the point of sale. An enormous number of customers that come into a store haven't actually made up their mind in terms of which phone. And so trying to win the hearts and minds at the retail store is such a big effort. It's why AT&T's announcement was such a big part for us. Right. I mean, this is something that I think that Steve and Elop talked about on stage yesterday, or maybe even Ralph de la Vega, I can't remember who. But there was a particular point made about getting the people who are in the store educated about your phones and saying... It is a huge piece of... That's actually... I mean, I remember hearing when Palm released its pre that there was a lot of trouble with Verizon with the people just not knowing about the device, not understanding them and not being able to tell people about them. And they would direct them to their phones. So for you guys, as the guy who's trying to get in there, it's basically your biggest barrier in some ways is if you don't ever point someone to it in a store. Usually retail people do an incredibly good job of trying to listen to the customer. So most of those people aren't in there just hocking phones up the door. They really are trying to understand the customer. And so our challenge has always been making sure they understand how to qualify a customer into a Windows phone and what a Windows phone can do for customers and educate them on that opportunity. So they can just find the right fit. It isn't so much of around going over the top or anything like that. But it's why announcements like the AT&T announcement are so important to us because they own that connection with the customer in a way that's the last mile and it's where most of the sales are actually taking place. There have been some reports that we saw about people being incentivized to pitch Windows phones. I mean, is that... It happens throughout the industry. I think every phone manufacturer and partner actually do that. And so in some cases, the mobile operator has strategies and momentum to do that in certain ways. I mean, but you guys will be doing that? I mean, you're going to... We're motivated to go compete at retail. You want people to tell people to get the phone. Yeah. I mean, but at the same time, I don't think anyone has a desire to sell a Windows phone to someone that's not going to be happy. So much of this... Any increased sales momentum is going to come from a satisfied base. And so it's not worth artificially selling a phone to someone that's not going to be satisfied. So that's kind of a great product, win at retail, and really focused there. And the third thing I would say is marketing execution. We still have this huge opportunity in terms of the Windows brand itself and kind of the direction it's going and what it means for people and making that relevant to the phone purchase and driving awareness that there is an opportunity to actually buy a Windows device when you're making a phone choice. And so those are kind of the three big pieces. I mean, there's a lot of other tactics. I mean, and the marketing has to... Obviously, you guys haven't been... You've been doing some marketing, very AT&T-centric marketing, I think. We've been very partner-centric in the marketing. We've worked really closely with OEMs and mobile operators, and we'll continue to look for opportunities to do that. Are you going to start telling the story about just Windows phone in general in terms of marketing? I think we're evaluating it. I don't know if we've made any decisions in terms of how we're going to go to marketing. I think what's clear to us is we have to translate the brand awareness of Windows and the affinity that people have for Windows and make that relevant to our product inside this category. And that's an effort, and I don't think anyone feels accountability for that other than Microsoft. And so that doesn't necessarily mean a specific marketing spend in terms of, hey, we're going to go give this person money or that campaign. But it does mean we have a very specific set of objectives that are going to lead to, I think, not just short-term but long-term success. Okay, so I know you have to get out of here. But I have a... Mostly because I'm going to melt. Yeah, it's so warm. We've got to do something about the temperature in the group. But I have a question for you. It's a personal question. So we have a forum on The Verge. It's currently called Microsurfs. It's named after a Douglas Copeland book about Microsoft. It's a great book. Cheese under a door, the whole night. Yeah, I was a big fan of the book when I first read it. But we're changing the name. Some people don't like it because it suggests... It has some negative... It's basically a negative term. But no, playful. Suggestions for... Well, I tell you, internally, there's a lot of this Microsofty kind of thing. Microsofters. Or Softies or those types of things. I personally have a preference for like Aaron's Playground or something. I don't know if that was... Aaron's Playground. I don't know if that's going to kind of fit for you. That sounds like a weird porno site. It just feels like I think people would have this instant affinity that would be really positive for just my... Like Woodman's Playground? Right. Something like that. Okay, so you're putting it in for Aaron. Aaron's Playground or Woodman's Playground? I just feel like there's some opportunity there. Well, it's a very selfless... I'll talk to my boss. It's a very selfless, modest proposal. I really appreciate it. Aaron, thanks so much for coming. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate it.