Title,Score,URL,Comments "Bipartisan bill would ban lawmakers from buying, selling stocks",11904,https://thehill.com/policy/finance/541425-bipartisan-bill-would-ban-lawmakers-from-buying-selling-stocks,"We found something faster than the speed of light: Our politicians shooting this down. Wow this is definitely going to pass. Over 15 of our House Reps sit on corporate boards, hope it won't get shot down “Common sense legislation dies immediately due to corruption. More at 11.” I believe they should be limited to buying and holding broad based US (or Global) index funds, no sectors and certainly no individual securities. They already defanged the STOCKS act less than a year after passage and have shown themselves incompetent at holding their peers accountable for trading on nonpublic information. What if all federal employees had to put liquid assets into a blind trust managed by a government fund manager that passively invests in a broad basket of etfs. Low costs. Minimal privatization of money management. And it aligns incentives of people in the seat of power to make policies that broadly strengthen equities. Even allow them to transfer without incurring a tax basis change. We can’t realistically ban law makers from holding stocks. And blind trusts may not really be blind. But this approach theoretically could align incentives with the general public more than they are today. Lawmakers won’t like that. How else would they have incentive to be lawmakers? Of yea, bribery and special donations. Fucking sumbags I would rather they just be required to disclose each transaction on a daily basis. I want to do insider trading too. /s They actually had something like this before..that they almost unanimously gutted the day the Boston bombing happened while people were focused on that. They already had this law and then repealed it almost instant, when everyone realized that congress was providing stock tips to their staff for a cut of the action To bad it does not put those in jail who profited from the Covid 19 virus and get them arrested Honestly this shit should be added to the constitution. There is such a conflict of interest between government and business that its sickening. Aaaand....David Perdue has dropped out of the Georgia senate race We already have a legal and enforcement mechanism for this that applies to anyone working in the financial sector or who is an officer of a public company. Extend the insider trading rules to public officials and we’re good to go. As it fucking should be As it shroud have been from the very beginning. ""Bipartisan"" Doubt (X) Next change laws for corporations to behave like live entities and tax rules. Can’t believe this wasn’t a thing until now. Like that’ll ever pass I bet republicans will figure out how to make this only apply to democrats. This is huge If I am a lawmaker...why can't I invest in stocks? That's nonsensical. Because I participate in arbitration I am now barred from preserving or growing my wealth through investments? Hell yeah Unless the article isn't naming everyone, ""bipartisan"" is 2 Republicans, one of which is Matt Gaetz. None of those Republicans are in the senate, and only 3 total are from the senate. There is no way this bill sees a vote unfortunately. ""Bipartisan"" There are only 2 republicans in the group. The rest are democrats. Totally bipartisan. Way overdue but how will it ever pass? About time. But it has to extend to their family members too. Has anyone ever used TrustFinance? Nobody better hold their breath,that's like cutting their wages, ain't gonna happen. Lawmakers: Trump should put all his shit into a blind trust so he can’t profit from his position. Also lawmakers: How do we know he’d try? Duh, how do you think we all got so rich? [As of 2012](https://ballotpedia.org/Net_worth_of_United_States_Senators_and_Representatives) (latest data available, we should really force another review somehow): * US Congress average worth: $7,888,502 * US Senate average worth: $14,013,596 * US Senate Democrats average: $13,566,333 * US Senate Republicans average: $6,956,438 [US Senate salary](https://www.senate.gov/senators/SenateSalariesSince1789.htm) (not average, set across the board): $174,000. Average of $8M - $14M on a salary of $174k. I know software engineers at Google who have been pulling in more salary and more stock options, for 10 years, who aren’t even close to those numbers. The only ones that are, made significant returns in the stock market. 1. Public service positions should not be seen as a way to get rich, nor used that way. 2. Term limits. Preferably tied to a few factors independent of office - say, 10-12 years so they can serve under both parties Presidents, but also some metrics for doing their job well and restrictions on time / money spent campaigning for re-election vs working. 3. While I’m smoking this crack pipe and dreaming of things they’ll never pass into law anytime soon, let’s also throw in some restrictions on age. If you get elected at 55 after retiring from work, good for you. Serving till 67 or so is fine. If you got elected at 25 and have stayed in office for 50+ years by running unopposed, gerrymandering, consolidating power, etc, no. If you’re older than literally half or more of the average nursing home residents, it’s time to step down (looking at you, 85+ year old representatives and senators). We could tie this one to “no older than the country’s median life expectancy plus X standard deviations” or “median life expectancy - 10%” or something. Incentivize them to make improvements for all in order to stay in office longer. Now, that’s not to say I don’t appreciate the job they do. I’m not trying to undersell the complexities of law or difficulty in hashing things out with eternal compromises. Pay our representatives fairly and competitively, perhaps based on a % or multiplier of the median cost of living in their state. After all we also don’t want to underpay to the point where *nobody* wants the job. But we need some serious changes to the government money tap. [deleted] The fact that this isn’t already law should let everyone know that though this is a democracy, it is far from a functioning, healthy one. This is a stupid bill...just make them have a 3rd party advisor who makes the investment choices for each politician. Even if you are a politician you should still absolutely be allowed to invest in financial markets. And it will fail to pass bipartisanly. They shouldn’t even be allowed to own stocks. How will Nancy save for retirement? I believe she participated in at least 7 IPO’s including Visa. Yes please! An actual swamp cleaning bill. Thank you, Dems. It’s like, “wow this wasn’t already a thing?” Good. PLEASE LET THIS PASS. It won't. BUT PLEASE This would be simply catching up with the rest of the uncorrupt world. How active trading was every allowed while in office beggars belief I'm sure Ted Cruz will take it court and claim it somehow infringes upon his 1st amendment right. Lawmakers should just be banned from having any income other than their salary and retirement from working as a lawmaker. You want to be one of the most powerful people in the country? You should also have to accept that you are a public servant. This should have been part of constitution when our founding fathers wrote them 😂 Does this apply to the house too? Didn’t Nancy Pelosi buy $1m worth of Tesla right before they announced that partnership with the us gov? Would be great to stop those criminals too. Now do Joe and Hunter. [removed] > Bipartisan There is no way republican congresspeople vote to ban their sale of stocks. Just curious what they meant by “bipartisan”. 16 democrats, 2 republicans. Lol, “lawmakers” are expected to vote on this? Why would either side pass this bill?...they both love being corrupt Lmao is this a joke? Even as a none politician this sounds absolutely stupid. Wasn't there a senator who sold his position like right around 03/18/2020 and people were super pissed about it but it was like literally the worst time to sell, he literally sold at the bottom. ​ More oversight would be great but I'm not exactly convinced that they know what they're doing regardless. Probably have an advisor do most of it anyway What about their families, cousins, in-laws, friends, partners, lawyers, trust fund managers, neighbors, etc...? Parliamentarian says no Bueno. End of bill. Yea right... dude this is bad stocks wont go up or theyll have some bs system [deleted] Short Congress Great idea! Make them be the public servants that they were hired to be. Make sure to include family too! That’s how Nancy made her millions. She seems to have fed leads to her husband. Before commenting on how this is a stupid bill that won't pass, people should read the details. Lawmakers can still have investments through a blind trust. It's actually pretty reasonable, and some form of restriction should be implemented. The information at lawmakers disposal is far greater than the average investor, and they can shape laws to fit their needs. Having outside advisors manage money on their behalf is a reasonable response. No it wouldn't Better include immediate family too. Otherwise little Johnny is going to be a millionaire at 3. So now their spouses will buy/sell for them. Or perhaps as others have suggested, they put their stocks in trust. Seems like a feel good story to give the illusion of fair play. Good Nothing will change. They will form companies in their husband/wife/children's names and trade using those. They will have to take a different route instead of the highway that's all :( It’s a matter of trust. If they cannot own shares, their family can. If family can’t, someone whom they trust with insider info and in deal of sharing profits can. They can just get other people to own the stock for them. Trusted family member or friend. Didn't read the article (should go without saying). If this doesn't apply to spouses, then it doesn't matter. Edit: Skimmed the article. Indeed, this policy doesn't matter. What about their family? I'm sure they already found a way around it. yeah only way something like this could pass is with a convention of states. It will be in a “blind trust” They should be allowed to use the same funds other federal employee get. What about spouses/children/close friends? This was my concern with Trump as well. He could claim that his sons were running the enterprise, but he was still benefiting. It is so hard to track the abuse. Can't imagine this will be very popular. That's fine, I'll just buy more property and use my powers to inflate the housing market instead! But it doesn't mean the people close to them can't Can someone explain how SPACs will factor into this? Now they can only get rich from bribes (speaking fees). Nobody tell them. Wait, law makers can buy and sell stocks?! I like the bill. I am not a lawmaker or a cat. It's obvious that making politicians put all their financial affairs in a blind trust is a step in the right direction. But, that won't stop them passing measures, as they long have, which sacrifice the middle class and broader economy to keep the line going up. They're not stupid and will correctly surmise that if they can keep the market indices rising, that is likely to benefit their net worth, however the blind trust may have invested it. Bipartisan bill that will never get passed. > Lawmakers and covered staff can ask to transfer their holdings into a blind trust and can still make investments in most retirement accounts. Makes perfect sense and doable for the income they earn. Don’t see how this isn’t already done Excellent idea. Pay attention who votes against this and hold them accountable. Today on the list of things that should have been things decades ago... Wow a post in the popular section I actually agree with The bill will be DOA, if it passes it will have so many loopholes it will be useless. Even if this passed, so what? Pelosi's husband does all her trading. This is a meaningless bill. Free market. Even if it did pass. All you need to do is find a company to hold sell and buy stocks for you. AKA bipartisan bill would make lawmakers have to use their spouse's names to buy and sell stocks. Thats dumb Weird feeling this won’t pass Amazing it’s taken this long. I can just imagine the loopholes in this thing. So badly needed... but will never happen in our lifetime at least. The shittier you make being a Congressman, the shittier the people willing to do the job will be. Who the fuck would run for Congress if they had to give up control of their personal finances? ""A difficult, relatively low-paying job for two years? And I have to give up control of all the money I've made up to now in my life? Sign me up!!"" I’m waiting for the loophole that allows them to be gifted stock via a corporate trust. Fuck yes this 100% this They should only be allowed to invest in broad based index funds, honestly. what if they were just not granted the amount of control over the market that is needed to manipulate it A while this bill would definitely need some qualification, as it would be ridiculous to cut off all public servants from trading in the stock and bond market, it would be reasonable to prohibit them from participating in trades which represent a conflict of interest. What about their spouse? (Peloisi) I hear they're rolling term limits and pay increase freezes into it to really make sure it passes... Hahahahahah I'm funny sometimes. Just shifts to blind trusts. Wouldn’t this just make them trade stocks on their spouses’ and kids’ names? Physicians who recommend medical marijuana in Florida cannot buy marijuana stocks. Oh Pelosi, I’m going to miss your stock picks Europe: we want less corruption. USA choking on lobby cash: no I don’t think I will This is a no brainer. Politicians are corrupt and always will be. People usually focus on politicians buying stocks and then passing laws to help them, but what if a politician bought put options on private prisons and then pushed for closing them down? Doubt this will actually pass tbh. We have gone too far on the corrupt side. This will never happen Would they still be able to buy index funds? If I’m not mistaken, a ban was already in place after they were pressured to ban trading after a 60 minutes piece on this. They then repealed the ban less than 1 year later. This has as good of chance as Epstein going to trial. Even if it did pass they would just find a workaround Couldn’t you have kids over 18 trade for you just wondering Is The Hill trust worthy? hahaha yeah they’re already filthy rich why do they need to buy and sell stocks anymore?! 😂. Covid made them rich! Help HA. Pipe dream Crazy that this is not in place yet.. This should’ve been done in the 1780’s They'll resign before they let this happen 🧐 Buy Bitcoin then!!! Its about time to shut that down!! Ok, but it needs to include their families. Lol that would never pass. So where they going to stick there assets in the Federal Reserve bank? Lol better late than never. Great idea I'm all for it but I think they still could third party their tips, stopping insider trading among politicians is going to be next to impossible. Testing They'll just pay someone else to do it for them to hold it in an account until they can collect it. this bill is just to make us feel better about them not doing anything for us. Seems to not be working on me. Make them move to index funds with a hold period lasting their entire time in office. Give them a modest pension in case they retire at a bad time. Or... Make a ""Congress ETF"" so we can get a bite Are there any interesting brokers lately, please review. If you work at FINRA there is a list of companies you can't buy or sell, a 30 day holding period, and restrictions on options. How do we have higher standards for a financial regulator than politicians with infinitely more options for corruption? It won't prevent their partners from buying stock or family Take my God damn upvote Just gonna have their families do it for them Maybe we could install a third legislative body that only makes rules for the rest of congress. Free them from that ethics and oversight burden so they could, you know, legislate. Then we know who to vote out *Einstein is typing…* They shot this down faster than TERM LIMITS ..lol !! About time. Nancy Pelosi is the worst offender Yup total space time paradox. Buy Puts on Congress talk about insider trading [deleted] I would actually expect this to pass. The details matter though because I think it’s actually in public interest that lawmakers have “skin in the game”. One of the great recent innovations in business is giving employees stock of the company, it’s a powerful motivator and I think we want Congress members to have the same motivation for the country stock market. So as long as the restrictions are on individual stocks I think this is great and would address the biggest possible source of corruption, but if the goal is to ban holding even broad ETFs I think this may actually backfire By bipartisan they mean both sides agree this is going nowhere. Hijacking to link to the bill text as introduced in the last (2019-2020) Congress, where Senate Republicans allowed it to die in Committee because they are incapable of doing the right thing. https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/1393/text How the fuck is Gaetz involved in this?! If would ever pass, all congress would quit immediately. ""I didn't sign up to get paid this little."" That’s a practice they should do away with too Any of them interesting pairings? The STOCKS Act was amended and effectively defanged by S.716 in 2013 under Obama. Trump isn’t really to blame for that one. This. Nonpublic information. If you or I did it, would be called insider trading subject to criminal sanctions. Honestly I don’t mind blind trusts so long as it’s audited properly to make sure there are no improprieties in the background. In some jobs, Federal employees need to provide full financial disclosures and are not allowed to make transactions on any stock that could be construed as a conflict of interest. For ex., FDA employees cannot own drug company stocks. At the same time, they can invest in a common fund that holds drug stock and that is ok. yeah, lawmakers owning millions of index funds is fine, there's not really a vector for corruption there. The only reason this is an ""issue"" is because the Government has a monopoly on Law and its enforcement. Stop allowing the Government to be the only institution that can make or enforce laws. Nobody should have a monopoly on Law. And this is the ONLY thing that allows powerful corporations to gain legislatively-backed dominance. There should be multiple competing private arbitration firms that make laws and hand down judgments -- that way when one of them is found to be corrupt they'll just go out of business and people can stop using them. By ""Bipartisan"" they mean ""Both Republicans and Democrats hate it"". In the article I count 18 sponsors, out of which only two are Republican. Maybe I'm just being pessimistic, but I don't foresee this going anywhere. The idea is that if you have own any stock, you would be more inclined to pass laws for your own gain. You’re blind, ignorant, or both if you can’t see that these shady investment practices have been exercised on both sides of the aisle. Pelosi is a Democrat and it’s shocking how much she’s got away with. If you or I tried that, we’d be in prison. Fantastic explanation. Couldn’t agree more with all these points. This would undoubtedly fix most of the issues that we face with our government “representatives”. That’s radical and ridiculous. Everyone should be able to own property and invest for retirement. As long as they aren’t directly managing the account I don’t see an issue. They must live outside and not have a salary and beg for change. They shouldn’t even be allowed to use electricity or any technology. I’m as lefty as the next person (in fact I’m a European lefty - some of the ideas I have might seriously twist your melon), and even I think this might be going a wee bit too far... No bitcoin?!?! How will they ever make it without that???? This would also get corrupted pretty quick and I’d want to use that guy too as he probably would be getting insider information. Total market index fund IMO would be the way to go as they should be working to raise all ships with the tide that they control. > This is a stupid bill...just make them have a 3rd party advisor who makes the investment choices for each politician. You say ""this is a stupid bill"" but then go on and agree with the bill that they shouldn't be able to direct their own investments? That's amazing. That is just silly. So they shouldn’t be able able to save for retirement? That’s ridiculous Why only point the finger at one politician? Soooooo many have done the same thing You’re an idiot. Congress members getting banned from trading stock eliminates 535 people out of 325+ million Americans from trading stock. Nothing would collapse. This instance of “bipartisanship”: 16 democrats and 2 republicans. Pretty sure you’re right. When this gets to a vote, it will be further evidence that both sides are not the same. So they’re not just gaming a system, some are idiots with their insider info too, great, I still want this to pass I can't tell if you're trolling or not, but you do raise an interesting point. If they push back, why not put a thirty minute delay on politicians trade orders, and force immediate disclosure of them placing it? Surely if they aren't trading on insider information letting everyone else know what they're doing won't hurt. Same reason why insider trading is illegal. Money really isnt everything here Power. [deleted] Members of Congress are restricted by the STOCK Act: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STOCK_Act But restricted here might be a bit strong of a word. Lol when I worked in public accounting I was basically prohibited from owning shares of any company that mine worked on. Even offices clear across the country that I had nothing to do with or clients that I never touched. Well, because they make the rules of course. I don’t disagree but you can’t really fire a politician like you can an employee. Or a bank. My wife is employed, while I am not, at a large US bank and it limits employees AND their spouses with those rules. Securities are either not available or “blocked” with no explanation or only allowed via a financial advisor. I can’t even buy Pot ETFs for the love of God. What’s good foe the goose ..... Hahahha ma men 5 minutes of them laughing at the presenter I like the idea of a broad ETF in a blind trust. Gives them skin in the game without incentive to change laws in their own financial interest. if they can put their stocks into a blind trust they still own the stocks and whatever gains or losses their policies might create I think maybe considering them insiders based on the information they're privy to in the eyes of the SEC is all we need to do, so long as they actually follow through when they break the law. Not outright banning them, because yes they should have skin in the game. Example: Selling off once they learn about covid as insiders before the market learns - illegal, gains taken away or a very large fine. Owning GME passively for 5 years and they decide to sell off at its peak, having no insider knowledge - legal But finding out they met with regulators and HFs before they sold GME at its peak - illegal I think they should be forced to invest in a blind trust or have their positions published in real time. This would eliminate the benefit they get from inside information. Also limits on what they're allowed invest in that is not in a blind trust. “Skin in the game” sounds nice in theory but...the market isn’t exactly a great economic indicator Good bot [deleted] >it’s a powerful motivator and I think we want Congress members to have the same motivation for the country stock market. We had a President who did everything in his power to make the stock market stay up in 2020. The wellbeing of their constituents should be reason enough. They don't need even more reason to favor something that is 80% owned by the most wealthy 6% of the population. It can pass and then they buy and sell stocks through a company owned by a trust fund and nothing changes. Congress should not be passing laws that make them (individually) more valuable. Period. Exactly. It's common sense, really Doug LaMalfa (R-CA) is on the Transportations and Highways subcommittee and is CEO of his family trucking company, LaMalfa Trucking. I always thought that one was pretty amazing. You are correct, I amended (see what I did there) the post. Absurd that they passed it to fanfare and then removed the most important part 6 months later. Also did not mean to implicate the President in either case, only congress. how tf you gonna have competing companies for laws? you could be somewhere and break the laws of one company while following that of another and still get arrested. it makes no sense I understand what the idea is -- but this issue stems from someone having a monopoly on Law creation to begin with. I think it is absolutely silly to say, ""Hey -- you're not allowed to invest in companies you like."" So I don't get to preserve or grow the income I make over time and space? I just have to keep it in cash, watch it get eaten away by inflation year after year? Goddamn I’m amazed that after a year this still only has 3 upvotes. Half the time I post stuff like this it’s as I’m drunk and laying down to sleep. So I’m glad you appreciated the thoughts here. [deleted] We pay them to work for us. If personal enrichment is a priority for them then public servant isn’t the job they should be seeking. The “perks” of a job typically don’t include immense power over thousands or millions of people. And so the problem of political “perks” and career politicians is intrinsically linked. [deleted] >This would also get corrupted pretty quick and I’d want to use that guy too as he probably would be getting insider information. no...it wouldn't...this is very standard practice for people in politics, audit firms, ppl in management positions, etc...my firm has a ton of these clients. >Total market index fund IMO would be the way to go as they should be working to raise all ships with the tide that they control. Most of these people will be invested in total market indexes anyways (either the ETF or through direct equity ownership)...but once you get to a certain AUM level it becomes far cheaper and more tax efficient to hold the individual equity issues instead of holding a mutual fund or ETF. This is usually around the \~$500k in AUM level, which most politicians (older ppl who have had more time to accumulate wealth) have already reached. Just have a 3rd party advisor who manages the assets, or put them all in a blind trust type system and it very easily gets rid of the lack of oversight/accountability. > You say ""this is a stupid bill"" but then go on and agree with the bill that they shouldn't be able to direct their own investments? clearly you have no idea what a third party advisor is...the politician still directly owns the investments...they are just not directly managing the portfolio... > That's amazing. no...you just clearly don't have any clue what you're talking about and don't know what a third party advisor actually is. Why exactly should they be allowed to own stocks while in office? Do you not see the enormous conflict of interest at play? If you’re worried about their retirement, don’t, you should be so lucky to have a plan half as extravagant as theirs. Well if one was to conduct a poll she would be one of the more recognizable politicians. She was also the focus of a 60 minute segment talking about her participation in the Visa IPO with obvious conflict of interest. I don't know it just doesn't bother that much I guess Perhaps I should have phrased it as ""Why would anyone worthwhile ever run for Congress..."" I'm in that world too - 30 day hold minimum, pre-approval required, restricted list of shares that employees can't trade in (that is constantly amended depending on what the bank is doing). Set windows in which employees can buy shares in the bank we work for - which can't be held in a normal brokerage account. Options, CFDs etc are a hard no. Even then, a lot of us can only trade in index funds and ETFs, and they still go through a pre-approval process. Edit: some banks aren't as strict, but from experience and talking to friends working at other banks, the restrictions are quite similar across the board. Edit Edit: added bit about holding company shares Yes but the key word is you work for... these rules don’t apply to the people who make the rules. Nor do they apply to the people who pay the people who make the rules or at least can afford to circumvent the rule system entirely. Right? My wife needs to clear every loan, stock trade, etc through her job before we invest, borrow, etc. Just in case we don’t clear these things, they’re linked into my brokerage accounts and receive updates of these transactions. It’s a big deal if there’s even a chance she doesn’t appear independent. We also need to keep an eye on all of these things as what may be allowed today, may not be tomorrow. Poster below gets into more detail about it. I’ll never understand how people create laws that declares winners and losers don’t have the same stringent requirements. Public accounting firms, especially the big 4, will provide you with a list of companies you and your immediate family are not allowed to own, and then a myriad of other rules to maintain independence. Yeah, private world cares more about this type of stuff than politicians do which is sad. Hell if your a spouse of an accountant at a major accounting firm they try to limit what you buy and sell even if your spouse isnt on those contracts / clients. Yeah, I guess it could make sense since you theoretically could access the audit files although access can be easily restricted in PFX so only the office performing the audit has access to the client. -*happy cake day - happycrabday*- VTI Blind trust is probably the way to go. I don't mind them owning individual stocks or ETFs, but if they hold either of those and sell off like they did before Covid, I think that's what we all have issues with. Id support this or make them do a tax free conversion into index funds at the start of their public term. That keeps an incentive in the long term health of the economy. 1 year after they're out of public office, let them rediversify into whatever they want. This ensures they don't pass insider legislation in their last months. Only as rebuttle to the first point, the SEC already does nothing against these ppl in most instances so that's a moot point. It's not really an indicator, more of a result of a strong economy. Theres some exceptions like the market skyrocketing as unemployment spiked with covid, but that was mostly because the unemployment was more caused by government restrictions than actual company performance, and the stock price is supposed to represent present and future value of the company. Also the thing millions of regular Americans have their retirement tied to. Stock market benefits anyone invested. Yes that includes rich people but also pretty much everyone except for very poor, either directly or through retirement plans etc. Things like university endowments also benefit and those are used to promote research and school funding for poor which in the end benefits everyone. But that’s not even the main point, while not perfect, stock market is a decent indicator for overall financial health of the country. Having Congress optimize for that isn’t bad at all, and benefits everyone who lives here Stocks are held directly by 55-60% of population and that’s not accounting for pensions etc Yeah this one. He sponsored a bill to do away with excise taxes on truck sales [deleted] How long had he been with that company before office? Because it is also a plus to have representatives that are on committees of things they already have knowledge about Because The Law is nothing but an opinion handed down by someone who is seen as trustworthy (a judge arbitrating a dispute). ""The Law"" is essentially just a codified set of principles that are widely held and accepted. Think about a Dictionary for example. The people who write a Dictionary, thus an ""Expert on the English Language"" do not actually CREATE the meaning of words. They simply codify the meaning of words as accepted by the general public. So when you are writing a paper and you consult a dictionary or an encyclopedia or a thesaurus you are referencing effectively the ""correct usage of the word or term"" decided by someone who is a respected expert in the English language. If suddenly the publisher of a Dictionary came out and said, ""Violence means giving hugs to all your neighbors"" nobody would accept that. Because we all agree as English speakers that this is NOT the meaning of the word. And if a publisher of a Dictionary kept getting it wrong-- they'd go out of business. Law is very similar -- it is an OPINION handed down by someone who is an expert in codified law in that area / region. So if two people are having a dispute, for example, they appeal to an arbitrator who then issues an opinion on that case, thus creating a Law. But that Law must be an acceptable Law under generally accepted principles. But what is tyranny is when you grant yourself sole permission to create and disseminate and enforce Law. At that point, you and you alone get to decide what is or is not law which grants you the ability to create laws that only benefit you and nobody else. Thus why corporations can cozy up to Government who has a monopoly on Law, and buy themselves legislation that benefits them and only them at the expense of others. There’s nothing wrong with them owning mutual funds or anything along those line in their retirement accounts. Most politicians make money after they leave from media deals (books, ads etc.) Lefties in the vein of libertarian socialists are all about liberty. Read about about Anarchism, democratic socialism, left libertarianism (aka the original libertarians before the word was co-opted by American capitalist enthusiasts that don't even consider workplace liberty). The fact that you seemed to imply being a leftist is at odds with liberty misses the mark. The Left has historically been founded on liberty - workers' rights, the dissolution of workplace hierarchy, etc. These ideas are very popular in Europe, but not in the States due to decades of propaganda and misinformation. Socialism is just workplace democracy/consensus (welfare spending has almost nothing to do with socialism btw). Socialists seek to remove the capitalist and hierarchy in the workplace. Libertarian socialists, specifically, take the anti-state, pro-liberty mentality into the workplace. They'd argue socialism is inherently liberating. American ""Libertarians"" are anti-state but never take that mentality into the workplace. They're only halfway there to the libertarian socialists, who not only are anti-state, but *also* anti-workplace hierarchy. They'd argue the Right is *inherently* opposed to liberty on economic grounds. Don't imply leftists are opposed to liberty without doing the research. Funny enough, your original comment is arguably very ""Leftist."" Is your melon twisted yet? The bill would not prevent congresspeople from owning stocks. Did you both not read the article AND misread the headline or something? The bill would prevent them from managing their own portfolio. Just like you want to prevent them from managing their portfolio. What's your problem? Because that is how most people save money for retirement. Before you say it’s only for the rich as many love to say, be advised that over half of Americans have stock. Also not all politicians are lifers or even rich. Many serve for only a few years. This would certainly discourage me from ever wanting to serve in public office because it wouldn’t be worth it to harm my retirement potential. There’s a better way to prevent corruption than this bill. [deleted] NYC IB here. No single stocks or ETFs. I know someone at an offshore office of a particular Asian bank that said he can buy/sell whatever he wants. Meanwhile I can't even hug the index without asking for approval :( I was in tax so I didn't even have audit software Not like they just won't shuttle stocks to their spouses names. they also have more important things to worry about besides when to hold and when to buy Devils advocate though, if you had a position with built up huge cap gains it incentivizes you to use this type of provision to your advantage. Not that someone is going to run for Congress to neccesarily avoid taxes, but a thinly traded family business with a concentrated position can lead to life changing money if you can liquidate it with no cap gains at all. I start a co with $10,000 in common stock to start, grow it to a 50 chain franchise worth 50,000,000 and have no capital gains on the liquidation. Would I do it? No. But if I was in Kansas and could avoid $10,000,000 in capital gains taxes. Maybe? [deleted] That's *the* point. The point is that it *shouldn't* be moot. [deleted] [deleted] > stock market is a decent indicator for overall financial health of the country. In the sense that a literal stock market crash clearly shows how poorly the country is doing, I'd agree. Otherwise, I think the stock market is a lot more disconnected from reality than it arguably should be. Based on economic inequality metrics, metrics that reflect wage stagnation, more insightful unemployment numbers (i.e. they take into account individuals who are underemployed, out of the job market completely, etc.) I think it would be pretty tough to argue that the overall financial health of the country is on par with what it was decades ago....yet the stock market continues to do just fine. In short, the stock market progressively does better year-after-year, while the majority of the population stagnates at best. https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/who-owns-us-stock-foreigners-and-rich-americans I'm one of those around 50% who owns a tiny amount of stock that I hardly even pay attention to through retirement. I would much much much rather my politicians pay more attention to more pertinent issues. LMAO! I forgot about Ken Lay. We really made Carter sell his peanut farm though to be head of the military. Yeah, more power to him trying to remove taxes on his trucks. Very knowledge about what will save his company money. How would that work in the case of a murder? Does the dead man get no say in his arbitrator? or what if both parties can't agree on an arbitrator? There is also the problem of how the arbitrator is paid. Would someone not be able to get justice because they can't afford an arbitrator? Wealthy buisnesses could just pay for arbitrators that side with them. This also ignores the fact that judges are currently appointed by elected officials. Like it or not the law is democratically decided, albeit in a flawed way. In the current system people can choose to vote for officials that will change the laws to fit what they see as right. This has happened in the past with things such as marijuana legalization. Majority rules. Laws need to be universal or else they are unfair. Well, I was going to reply to storavalu, but you just did it more erudite you and eloquently than I could... that I actually read the article and you didn't...article excerpt below stating they: "" The measure would force all members of Congress and staffers to file certain high-level disclosures to sell all stocks, non-Treasury bonds, options contracts and derivatives they own within six months of the bill’s enactment or after taking office. Lawmakers and covered staff can ask to transfer their holdings into a blind trust and can still make investments in most retirement accounts. "" so, the new rule would indeed prevent them from holding specific securities...not just from managing their own portfolios, which they currently cannot do. \> The bill would prevent them from managing their own portfolio. Just like you want to prevent them from managing their portfolio. no...this is already the case...again an excerpt from the article...which you clearly didn't read: "" Lawmakers and senior staffers are already banned from making investment decisions based on nonpublic data obtained through their positions by the STOCK Act, a law signed by former President Obama. The practice of insider trading is also illegal under several federal securities laws. "" \> What's your problem? that you're trying to act all holier than thou and say I'm wrong when I'm actually 100% right and read the article and you clearly didn't. Again, are you aware of the retirement package members of Congress receive? If so, I don’t know how you could have typed that with a straight face. There isn’t any reason that those who choose to serve couldn’t sell their holdings and keep that money in cash while they served. You ever run the numbers on how many leave Congress many times wealthier than when they went in? It’s obviously not due to the salary. Maybe we need to discourage the type of people who currently wanting to serve. It comes with the territory I guess - we're under the microscope because if we do sketchy stuff it makes the bank look bad too. I still get friends of friends asking me to tell them what's on our restricted list, to which they cop a polite ""go fuck yourself"". You can't even invest in ETFs? What *can* you invest in? What if you and 2 friends were to form a business where each owns 1/3, and said company then does trades with whatever capital funds you put into the company account? Company does the trading, not tied to your name. Any language against that? What about cryptocurrency? I know them feels - pretty sure if anyone I know (myself included) tried to slide an investment in even the most basic of mutual or index funds past compliance without their knowledge we'd end up getting walked out by security The ability to draft new laws is by design to address the new needs brought on by criminals. Do it anyway, then we follow up as needed. *Should* is not *does.* ^This ^makes ^to ^much ^sense ^to ^work I generally agree but that's the situation we have now, too, eh? Insider trading before COVID announcements... SEC finds no wrongdoing. 08' crash... Only one person goes to jail. TBF, Gessler did enact new regulations to prevent that from happening again, but really the current market is just another CDO of the modern era. The SEC have a history of only investigating people it will fine - whether due to lack of social ties, or enough evidence to convict in public, etc. Plenty of people do bad things. But even now, in the digital age of surveillance, people still get away with bad things they're caught doing because the right ppl are the ones that caught them. The US unemployment rate has dropped every month since it spiked back in April. Many companies performed much better than expected this year as well, personally speaking we didn't quite hit our goals, but still did better than we did in 2019. Some industries were hit much harder by covid so the entire economy didn't collapse just because restaurants/entertainment are doing poorly. The stock market and unemployment rate were disconnected because the unemployment rate wasn't driven by the market, it was driven by government regulations that people were confident would be lifted so it didn't devalue the stock market. So maybe... just as an idea, actually do a google search before you start claiming crap? https://www.forbes.com/sites/teresaghilarducci/2020/08/31/most-americans-dont-have-a-real-stake-in-the-stock-market/ 55% of US population has stock investments, which is actually somewhat down from all time high of 67% back in 2002 And that’s just directly, include the pensions etc and it should be even more It’s not perfect it it’s better than a lot of alternatives and it has the advantage of working in real time compared to something like GDP Also, strongly disagree with the idea that US is somehow worse off than decades ago. It’s not uncommon claim and if you squint hard enough you can probably cherry pick some data to show it, but it just simply isn’t true by any reasonable metric, nor does it survive a simple sanity check So ignore my question while attacking his policy initiative. Thanks. >How would that work in the case of a murder? Literally similarly as it does now. >Does the dead man get no say in his arbitrator? No dead man gets a say in anything. They're dead. >or what if both parties can't agree on an arbitrator? That happens often now. Parties cannot agree on where a case should be tried (jurisdiction) and even who will be on the jury. So what you'd do in that case when two lawyers cannot agree on an arbitrator for that case -- is they would find an arbitrator themselves to help make that decision. >There is also the problem of how the arbitrator is paid. Would someone not be able to get justice because they can't afford an arbitrator? You'd probably just appeal to a Mutual Aid Society that helps providing a law enforcement professional and a list of arbitrators on contract. This is similar to healthcare for example. Up until about the late 1920s Mutual Aid societies existed mainly to help immigrant workers in places like the United States, England, and Australia. About 25% of the population was a member of some mutual aid society. Typically, the cost was very low -- one day's wages would pay for an entire year's membership into a Mutual Aid ""Lodge"" as it was often called. These lodges would put doctors on contract as one of their services to members. And doctors openly competed for lodge contracts, which kept prices staggeringly low. This was called ""Lodge Practice."" This is likely what would emerge in this situation as well. For people who don't make enough income (or do not belong to a more affluent community with law enforcement and arbitration contracts and more) then you can become a member of some kind of Mutual Aid society which -- as part of the membership benefits -- provides you lawyers / arbitration services and more. It's not much different than a tax-run system now. The big difference is you have choice and it's voluntary. >Wealthy buisnesses could just pay for arbitrators that side with them. Well they could TRY -- but why would employees for example agree to an arbitrator who has a history of siding exclusively with businesses? Also, many businesses / employees choose private arbitration to settle contract disputes because it's faster than going through traditional courts and there is no history of those arbitrators somehow always siding with the business. That would be bad business for the arbitration service. The Government, however, has a long-standing history of siding with big businesses and nobody really decide to ""stop using them."" >This also ignores the fact that judges are currently appointed by elected officials. Okay, well when you decide not to use somebody's service you are ""democratically"" refusing to give them your money and ""democratically"" deciding to go with somebody else, instead. And if some arbitration service screws up enough and develops a bad reputation you and everybody else can decide to ""democratically"" stop serving them, thus ensuring they'll go out of business. It's not much different. >Like it or not the law is democratically decided, albeit in a flawed way. Everything I'm talking about is no different. The big difference though is CHOICE and when somebody screws up they don't get to keep their job and of course there's competition -- multiple arbitrators competing thus ensuring they have to do a good job for clients and customers or they go out of business and fail. I'm convinced you don't speak English, and you've just memorized this post by rote. Because what you're saying makes no sense whatsoever. The words you copied from the article do not mean even close to what you claim they mean. It's pretty absurd. Huh, I’m actually kind of surprised (in a good way) that you have a restricted list. It makes complete sense, and 15 years ago I wouldn’t have blinked an eye at it, but the last four years have really shifted my expectations on institutional ethics. Are the restrictions specifically on companies the bank does business with, or are they large sectors of the market? If the former, does it make a difference if the contracts are public knowledge? I don’t want specifics, just a general impression of how they make their decisions. Not OP but I work for an IB. Crypto is kinda a grey area. According to the SEC crypto is not a security and technically FINRA doesn't have rules against it. Some firms have personal rules against it, but they're more along the lines of ""We forbid you from recommending crypto to our clients"" This. I always hate the argument that ""x won't work to address this other thing so we won't do it"". Fix A and the address all the things it creates, but dammit fix the first thing, ay? [deleted] [deleted] > and if you squint hard enough you can probably cherry pick some data to show it, but it just simply isn’t true by any reasonable metric, I mean I did provide several metrics in a non-exhaustive list of metrics that I think strongly undermine the idea that the economy is on par with what it was decades ago. You can feel free to agree or disagree, but it's much more constructive if you actually explained why my metrics may be an example of ""cherry picked"" data while other metrics are ""reasonable."" > nor does it survive a simple sanity check Solid argument Your question is pretty irrelevant. You could have looked it up and made a point based on a fact but you made a weird? point based on a potential fact and want me to look it up for you? It's his FAMILY business, so lets go with a long time. Does that change the fact that it's a giant conflict of interest? Businesses screw up all the time and are still in business, most of the time without penalty. and with your comment on the dead man, should someone not be punished for murder since the other person is dead? >The measure would force all members of Congress and staffers to file certain high-level disclosures to sell all stocks, non-Treasury bonds, options contracts and derivatives they own within six months of the bill’s enactment or after taking office. This is easily bypassed by having a third party advisor manage the accounts as should be the case as I pointed out above. Generally, there will be some markets and products employees aren't allowed to invest in due to embargoes, trade restrictions, optics - some banks won't deal with certain institutions in certain countries, or companies with operations in restricted countries (eg Company A domiciled in Canada has a mine in a conflict zone - Bank B could put a hard no on trading in Company A), so that extends to employees personal investments. Then you have companies that your bank may be consulting on, in negotiations to buy/takeover, or otherwise involved in. In this position the bank is likely in possession of non-public material information - and that rules out the employee - even if the employee has no idea about the relationship. Knowing something is on a restricted list can give an insight in to what the bank is doing, and if it isn't information that has to be published, those are cards that are held insanely close. Even between different teams - some teams on the same floor are completely blind to what others may be doing. Chinese Walls are a big thing. People already are going back to work, and have been since April. It doesn't matter if they're doing it remotely or not, they're still working, still making money, still spending money. And it's not like people just lit the money they were going to spend on vacations to Disney on fire, it went other places. Travel was down, but did you try buying a bike or kayak last spring? Because they couldn't even keep up with the demand. Commercial real estate might be down, but building materials are sky high and contractors are impossible to book because residential is doing well. One sector being in a slump doesn't mean the entire economy in shambles. Lol fair enough ;) No you didn’t... saying “income inequality” isn’t a proof. Here is real household income in US since after WW2. While it’s true that the growth is bigger at the top, everyone is making more today than decades ago https://www.cbpp.org/research/poverty-and-inequality/a-guide-to-statistics-on-historical-trends-in-income-inequality If someone has been working in an industry for 30 years, I think it would be pretty natural to work on a committee related to that industry >Businesses screw up all the time and are still in business, most of the time without penalty. I agree -- because they appeal to an organization that has a monopoly on law (Government) and use those connections to give themselves special powers. That's why you need to remove businesses' ability to appeal to a monopoly on Law. Business and State should be as separate as Church and State. Take the airline companies for example that SHOULD have failed and gone completely bankrupt during reduced travel during Covid. These airline companies over-leveraged themselves to the hilt for decades, they spent every last dime they made paying their leadership lavish bonuses and buying back their stock to artificially pump share prices. All the while, they never kept any reserves and they never improved customer experience, and they never increased pay or benefits for their employees. When Covid hit they should have gone bankrupt -- but they didn't. The State decided to bail them out -- and the State can do that because they have a monopoly on Law. So guess what? Nobody learned any lessons. Investors (Shareholders) learned that it doesn't matter whether or not the business is run correctly or overleverages itself and so on -- as long as the business is big enough the Federal Government will always bail it out, so that's the wisest investment. Because those businesses did not fail -- no competition was able to arise. Conceivably, young entrepreneurs could have bought the airplanes at auction, started new airline companies that were run much better, and offered more choice to both consumers and employees. They would have learned from the failure of the past airlines and would be careful not to repeat those mistakes. Shareholders and investors who lost their shirts would realize they shouldn't invest in companies that over-leverage themselves and artificially pump share prices. Or what about Dupont Chemical? They lied to the public for decades while putting Teflon in nearly everything (plus dumping it in communities, and poisoning them). They were so evil that they even laced employees' cigarettes with Teflon just to see how many would get cancer. They knew the dangers for decades -- yet they had connections in an institution which has a monopoly on law. That monopoly helped create strangling red tape and regulations for that industry that -- on the surface look great -- but in reality only creates and cements monopolies. Because it ensures that the ONLY people who can deal with that expensive red tape is the biggest companies already on the block. They also lobbied for protective and anti-competitive legislation and got it. When finally a decade-long class action lawsuit was settled -- they ended up paying billions in fines (that were actually just a slap on the wrist for them) and were able to continue operating. They have a crony monopoly only possible through having connections with an organization that has a monopoly on law. And none of us have any choice because no other competition can enter the space. The list goes on and on. >and with your comment on the dead man, should someone not be punished for murder since the other person is dead? When did I ever say anything like that? I just said a dead man cannot speak or decide on arbitration. Murder cases would be handled similarly as they are now -- a dead body would be found (or somebody would go missing). An investigation would ensue. Suspects would be named, arrests would be made, a trial would commence, a judgement would be handed down. [removed] Thanks for the in-depth response. That all makes a lot of sense, and I’m happy those restrictions are in place. I’d assume those restrictions apply to everyone in the company, including the higher-ups and board, correct? So that rumor I heard a year or so back about Jamie Diamond not letting Chase Bank employees invest in Bitcoin (if banks have a regularly updated banned list of investments for employees) isn't all that unusual after all. Equally not that unusual was the part of the rumor that despite banning Chase employees from buying bitcoin, Jamie bought a shit ton of it himself. That's the thing with rules and regulations these days, they only apply to regular folk, not the oligarchs. They don't even try to hide the hypocrisy these days as they know none of the corruption will make the news. It's really quite incredible how brazen the US oligarchs have become. Yes...yes I did. Those are all metrics, and you still haven't explained why you don't think they are ""reasonable."" Thank you for citing an article that supports my point though lol. Between WWII and the 1970s, income grew rapidly for everyone, and the income gap remained relatively unchanged. Since the 1970s, the income gap has widened to 1920's levels where it is basically concentrated at the top. And wealth is even more concentrated at the top. How about the bottom? According to the article: ""Without government assistance, poverty would have been about the same in 2017 as in 1967 under this measure, which indicates the strong and growing role of anti-poverty policies."" So, the top is doing much better (i.e. 1920's level), while the bottom is only doing better because of government assistance. At the same time, the stock market continues to do well. The stock market is essentially disconnected from reality lol Sure, and they should leave their company since they are electing to serve public office, not their own interests Not really understanding how anyone could think it’s a good idea to be in control of laws pertaining to a company you control and make profit from. How do you intend to combat regulatory capture then? I dont understand how this system you're proposing would work. If there's not one set of laws, how do we know what is and is allowed? How can you have a competitive market on laws? Why wouldn't businesses just pay off the new arbitrator? Why wouldn't people only agree to deal with arbitrators that say everyone can do whatever they want with no consequences? [deleted] Correct. If you could be perceived to have access to any non-public information, you're under the umbrella. Anecdotally, higher you go in a company, bigger the microscope. You're still trying to assert a conclusion from my point of view while I haven't made a conclusion. I'd certainly like to know more information about a person before judging them for a title they hold >If there's not one set of laws, how do we know what is and is allowed? Go back up to my previous comment and look at the parallel I drew with Language and the Dictionary. All a Law is, is a generally accepted best practice mutually agreed upon by people in a society. And all a Judge is, is an arbitrator who is well versed in the codification of those generally accepted and agreed upon societal ""rules."" So it would function almost exactly as it is now -- but no one organization would have a monopoly over Law and its enforcement. For example, we can see situations like this right here in the United States where there are different laws based on different places. Marijuana is legal in some states, while it is not legal in others for example. >How can you have a competitive market on laws? You don't have a competitive market on ""Laws"" so much as you have a competitive market on Arbitration services and law enforcement services. Again, Laws -- like the meaning of words -- change very little from place to place. >Why wouldn't businesses just pay off the new arbitrator? Because that's bad for business. If an arbitration service begins issuing judgements that are clearly biased and any kind of journalist or watchdog group brings to light corruption -- then people are not going to use that arbitration service anymore and they will go out of business. Worse yet, they will be sued and the participants put in prison and all their judgements will be over-turned. That's pretty terrible if your goal is to run a business that doesn't eventually fail and land you in a cage. >Why wouldn't people only agree to deal with arbitrators that say everyone can do whatever they want with no consequences? Because no community will ever agree with that. People seek out arbitration services to resolve disputes -- if the judgement passed is essentially, ""Do whatever you want"" or ""Let's see who can chug this beer the fastest - that's who wins!"" then nobody is going to use that service and the arbitrator who acts like that is going to be seen as someone who is not a good Judge of Law. When people go before a ""Judge"" what they are looking for is advice on how to settle an issue. If you go to your friend and ask, ""What's your advice on this"" and they say ""My advice is you two should settle this with a dual and whoever doesn't die, wins"" you're going to consider that bad advice from your friend. A judge would be no different. Here's a good little video on laws without government: https://youtu.be/khRkBEdSDDo Well I did ban him. So go figure it out before arguing a point without a conclusion. What are we even talking about if you’re not sure you even believe your stance? I actually didn't argue any points, but you have been the whole time. It's very clear you're only trying to argue, rather than educate. I already educated you. I told you his policies were self serving and you said that didn’t answer your question. I answered your question with along time and you still don’t have a stance on Doug LaMalfa. So if your point was to argue that you’re OK with people serving public office with a conflict of interest, noted. I don’t, and I’m not really here to change your mind. If knowing that the CEO of LaMalfa Trucking is directly responsible for trying to remove taxes on his trucks isn’t enough to sway you, what education could I provide you? You responded to me trying to rebuke my point that he has a lot of experience. That’s starting an argument. It’s ok to start an argument, but what are you even arguing? Do you know? >So if your point was to argue... I'm just going to stop replying after this because you continue to believe I'm attempting to argue with you, which I am not. Edit: I'm not trying to make any point. You don't seem to understand that Your quote is literally questioning if that’s what you’re doing not telling you you are. So you keep getting hung up playing this semantic game around the word arguing instead of just conveying your point. EDIT: You said you were conveying your ""point of view"", so you'd have to have a point you're making to be conveying your view." Wall st short-sellers lost $1.6 billion in a single day as Reddit traders rebelled against them,7750,https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/gamestop-stock-short-seller-squeeze-losses-reddit-traders-citron-gme-2021-1-1030000080,"And the short sellers are tripling down. Can't we just stick this on the bottom of WSB like every broker does? I mean... it works for them, right? *WSB advisory services are provided by borderline-autists. Investment Accounts Are Not FDIC Insured. No Bank Guarantee. Investments May Lose Value. For important information and disclaimers relating to the sidebar, see REDDIT.com FAQs. Accounts are free, bad decisions are yours alone. WSB does not provide, nor does it guarantee, any product, service, information, or recommendations. The stable geniuses providing advice and memes are solely responsible for them, as well as all other content on less cool subs. REDDIT.com is not liable for any user's failure of judgement with regard to insane suggestions, broken products, and failed services. The advertised investment mechanisms should clearly not use used by any sane investor, and may not be FDIC insured or bank-guaranteed. Links to third party sites may be subject to a different privacy policy than REDDIT.com. You should check individual sites, products, and services to become familiar with any applicable restrictions or conditions that may apply. REDDIT.com may receive compensation from third parties for selling your metadata.* Back in December I bought and sold a call with a $22 strike expiring April 16 for $300. That same contract is now worth $12,500......... Edit: 1/27/2021 now worth $26,000 😂 Edit: 1/27/2021 $32,5000 🤧 That's why the app is named Robinhood Short sellers and MMs that routinely manipulate the market are mad that people aren’t letting them manipulate the market. oh no, poor wall st Good. Good. The incoming Friday 29/1 most of 60c and 115c are expiring. Drama is real for MM who short selling trying to reach a price below 60! Let’s see guys! WSB might write history if it hasn’t already 🚀 Lol... it's like Main Street rebelling against Wall Street on their own turf. Although whoever is dropping thousands of disposable income on stocks is probably not main street. It's just another group of investors. How do we know they aren’t hedging short term? You all think they are just naked short... I don’t have any money in this, I haven’t been following it in any way til now, and I don’t care about the company at all, not being a gamer, but it does warm my heart to read it. Give ‘em hell. “Rebelling” against the few funds that are actually short GME (Citron, Melvin) is like rebelling against the Wendy’s drive thru. The street is way way bigger than just GME. Can someone explain to me what the fuck happened? My investment firm does all my trades I don't follow anything as long as I get a decent monthly return. At this price, couldn't Gamestop sell some of their owns shares and therefore, fund themselves past the point of bankruptcy? I apologize if that's not how any of this works. Just saw it hit 230 in after hours I can’t believe this is happening. This is some ants taking down termites shit right here Everything will revert to mean at some point. Someone's getting a margin call from their broker...again, again, again! The wealth transfer here is going to be from small hedge funds that can't remain solvent to those institutions that can (BlackRock), and from one set of retail investors (the FOMO crowd this week) to another (anyone in last week that gets out before the music stops). The scandal with WSB will be a bunch of people screeching to hold until $1000 but privately selling much lower than that. Not everyone will be able to realize these gains. New money vs. old money just like The Great Gatsby in highschool english class! Play stupid games, win stupid prizes..? Yup. That about sums it up. If there’s one thing more satisfying than making money, it’s making money while flipping off Wall Street. I’ve got a question: how is a stock shorted over 100%? You can’t buy back more than 100% of a stock? Reddit traders aren't rebelling, their throwing money at YOLO stocks in hopes of striking it rich. They're honest to god gambling addicts. ​ Source: Myself, am Reddit trader. About to lose some more. Where could I go to learn so I can spend my stupid money else where Should I buy some game stop???? Notice the language used by CNBC: Melvin Capital Closes Out GameStop Position: CNBC Its vague as fuck. 1. ⁠Melvin Capital never discloses their positions unless they have an FCC filing 2. ⁠They didn't mention ALL positions. Could as well may have sold their puts but are still short The short interest is still above 130% as per Zerohedge. Hold, this is them desperately trying to get the price down so that they can cover. Copy and Paste and fuck CNBC Fuck that big money they have had there foot on our throat for to long its our turn This sounds great but I don’t quite understand what’s happened. Can someone EILI5? While the price of GME is laughable, fuck these hedge funds that consistently manipulate the markets. If you're wondering why gme is climbing, allow me to explain 🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀👀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀 Love this, I like AMC as well We like the stock Kudos to all those who got rich off of this. I don’t have the balls, so I can only awe in admiration from afar for those who do and got effin lucky. I’m ok with this. If short sellers are losing, it means I’m winning. 🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀 [removed] What happens with the earnings report? GameStop was not doing well and was closing a bunch of stores. This isn't Tesla. There aren't product ideas and sales to keep the hope alive. Welcome to the stock market everyone where the rules are made up and the points mean nothing! They can just try deleting the Robinhood app you know A whole billion and a half? Wow, that’ll show them. Can someone please explain like I’m 5? I don’t understand what a short is and how Redditors did anything, who lost money? The redditors? This seems big and I don’t want to miss out And the day is not even over! The digital Occupy Wall Street. So many people are going to lose so much money. This is essentially an unorganized Ponzi scheme with nothing underlying it. Those idiots who think this is ‘good’ don’t realize Wall Street makes its money on trades. The only short sellers who lost are speculators. Those who short sold to hedge will have made a killing and sold off their stock by now. Leaving a bubble to grow till it can’t and hurting a lot of people who should be investing their money instead of gambling. Game stop?? Really? Will go down quick So what's next? Wall Street analysts primarily do their analysis on the P/E ratio, and when GME was hovering ~$20 for their Q3 earnings, they just barely topped consensus. After-hours has GME at ~$220 and assuming it's maintains triple digits by March 2021, how do you justify a price when most agree that it should be around the $12 range. Will a complete digital transformation make it compete with already established products like Steam, Xbox Live, and the Epic Game Store? So reddit is being used to organizing traders to manipulate stocks now? Fantastic Good! Fuck institutional traders. Freeloader mofos. [deleted] I don’t understand what all this stuff means ( I do wish I had extra income to try and play the stock market) but it makes me happy that wall st suits are unhappy I don’t understand this war. Wiping Boomers out makes no sense to me. Their wealth is going to be passed on to millennials over the next 20 years. Isn’t this shooting ourselves in the foot? good You don't lose anything until you buy back your short... Does anyone know how shorts work? Hello, redditor investor who did very well today. All I have to say is this: lol. So whats next? I want to join the fight against the short sellers this time Reddit and GME to the moon 🔥 just bought for 10,000$ Screw Wall Street. This is Main Street giving them the middle finger 🖕🏿 Join mastodon. It's an open source federated social media site. They CANNOT shut us down there. Join my server or any others and we can all talk stock there FREE from being shut down by the hedge funds and their influencers! https://mastodon.gsugambit.com I had GME calls that expired in November. add yet another pick I was right on...but timed wrong. \*jumps off top floor of Sears Tower\* Does that mean that they are no longer shorting it or is that just a potential loss? Meanwhile brokers celebrate Now I know where to get my PS5. Redditors unite! Where is the wall street bets subreddit? Quit shorting naked! My favorite part is the picture. Them evil smirks haha next is gnus Can someone ELI5? I'm placing my bet on 3 months to zero. Wait until you see AH results The movie they make of this will be great. The Big Short Squeeze. *wall str short sellers lost billions as people noticed they’d gotten greedy shorting a stock 140% any idea what today cost them if Friday was 1.6b? Time to show wall street how much we can inverse them. [deleted] Hope Shitron ate a lot of shit today This dude made $2.7 MILLION in a day with [GameStop!](https://youtu.be/pToftbWfYJc) This is like a Division II school beating Alabama in football preseason. It still won't change anything. Lots of good, average people are going to lose a lot of money when this is over. Don't be the last rat to jump the sinking ship. Honestly it's just the internet being the internet. Tell someone online that it cant happen or wont happen, the internet will fight them and make it happen, agree with them and they'll be chill Can anyone explain or point me to an article that explains why this happened? Like did wsb really find a genius play or was it the will of a community of people? Boomers😂 Cover photo must be 10 years old. Several copies Mario kart wii laying around? GTA IV poster? Those headphones!?! Sure the few who started this already took their profits and jumped ship laughed all way to the bank the big hedge funds will do same yes there’s short sellers but also huge hedges that own it and they’re not stupid enough not to sell all their shares better get out now unless you can afford to lose the money you invested If I’m wrong but I’m Not make the guys who suckered you into this prove their Still holding their shares !! They’re not just laughing at short sellers they’re laughing at you like any good con artist Make them prove they’re holding their shares !! The 08 crash of greed being paid back I became aroused just looking at that headline A lot of folks are set to lose a whole lotta dough when the ringleader bro's start dumping r/nottheonion First they weaponized social media to manipulate elections, now they realize they can do the same thing with the stock market with impunity. Glorious. From all of this, I hope some small time investor makes big and live a comfortable life. Good Hey guys can we hype sesn bio. Why aren’t the headlines - billion $ hedge funds wiped out from poor risk management I fucking love this whole thing. Thank fucking god that some redditors are working together to make a mockery of a totally ridiculous system of finance. Like seriously this all makes me so happy. Who has done the research on Chanos's portfolio..this MF is and institutional investor!! We should go after this guy!!! So in the long term all of the WSB folks are happy to lose their money if it means sticking it to the big guy? GameStop isn’t suddenly going to become a viable business in the long term. I think this whole thing is hilarious. How can I buy GameStop?? It won’t let me purchase on cash app :( Stock-tip Tomorrow-giant Boomer Buying DHL tomorrow. 👌🏼 HUGE!!! 💸💰💵📈 HODL Buy express everyone...make the shorts close their trades Going to be so interesting to see what happens next. Once all the Hedge Funds have cut their losses and covered their short positions, then what? At that point, the biggest fun for WSB is pretty much over, and they're buying off each other and keeping the price high for no real gain. How long does that last until some of the guys who've invested large want to sell up so they a) get to keep their profit and b) can wield that profit to target other Hedge Fund shorts, and do more damage to Wall Street. Where will Gamestop end up after all this works itself out? And now that this has proven to work, what will it mean for the future of short selling? Big funds will be super wary of this happening again. Been pretty amazing watching this slice of history in the making Congratulations to that sub! I just tried to mosey over there and congratulate them in person but it’s private now? Lol wow that’s shitty. They prolly all think they are THE wolf of wall st now lol but frfr good goin guys Like the US Navy. A force for good. And we are still buying amc game and naked Got in late keep buying I like to ride the rocket naked with amc with my new PlayStation from GameStop I got rid of like $200 in gamestop shares early this year....... Haha. Shit happens :-) ​ They had better invested in this: US42226N1090 Sorry. Wrong message. This down is bullshit. [https://www.news24.com/fin24/companies/retail/steinhoffs-share-price-jumps-by-50-20210127](https://www.news24.com/fin24/companies/retail/steinhoffs-share-price-jumps-by-50-20210127) Bloomberg -Main Street is beating Wall Street . Reddit retail traders done a good job Bravo There are many types of traders but many are either fundamental or technical traders. This is a technical trade in that the pattern alludes to a continued rise. I have no skin in this game but I do believe that Wall Street is being beat at their own game and they don’t like it. Great, job getting the hedge fund to lose if they the exercise their contracts now. does anyone know you long they have their contracts on? so, what is the next stock we are going to inflate? What is the latest trade everybody is doing? I want to buy options Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought short selling was selling stocks you do not own. And then trying to buy them back when the stock goes very low.? Could anyone answer this question? I love watching these rich bastards squirm Hold and add I'm on it GME 🚀🚀🚀 Keep it going. DOGECOIN Don’t trade more than you can lose. Guess the bigs guys don’t follow their own rules. Redditors : figure out a way to make wall street loose millions Also redditors : struggle to talk to a girl What is the Achilles heel! So no one is talking about Italian debt no one is talking about European Central bank no one is talking about what the financial Achilles heel is no one is talking about the financial markets in respect of risk again stress tests as the pandemic as it has wreaked havoc upon most of the hospitality, airlines and other associated industries. 18% of all US dollars were printed in 2017 the propensity to spend is with as Biden has said the lowest earners and the most at risk so his quantitive easing package of $1.9 trillion is correct. The bounceback curve has not seen the dead cat bounce other than a small return shortly after the first current financial nosedive. I saw the crash coming because of a 68% drop in oil consumerism in China alone. BP and Shell both have had huge revenue drops since the first wave of the pandemic this was to me was obvious. But now so many people are testing in the financial markets because they have expendable cash flow not because they are clever investors. And because historically if you invest in a crash you make lots of money. The financial markets are savage on the people that perhaps don’t play the safe game is that our Achilles heel. To invest in China is madness no one can trust the figures. the companies who hold the most value are state owned and the Chinese government just keeps on printing money without acceptable Accountancy indicators on their accounts. Effectively Chinese companies could pluck a figure from the sky and say that’s what they are and no one can indicate whether those returns are factual because of the tight financial restraints held by the government. Major US companies have held onto liquid cash to increase the value of the dollar many streams are flowing upwards and not being re-distributed as they don’t need to because they hold such strong product and marketing expertise. No one is talking about state owned Debt. The UK government is talking about Negative interest rates. This only hurt the people with the least propensity to save as the companies have Hoarded cash since the last financial economic crash. This was due simply to D risking. So what’s my point well many of the majors haven’t started to ask their suppliers for cost reductions so that they can keep their shareholders happy with the high returns they saw a few years ago also most corporations haven’t released their financial statements especially at the lower 350 FTSE mark. The markets are still propped up by government and sovereign fund intervention and people that do have money I still throwing it at stupid stocks. no one has been reporting on the losses and riveters market which is worth five times that of all the companies that exist so what are the losses if you hedged on oil another 68% drop even if you manage to risked what are the losses still a lot of those derivatives have not been paid out yet a lot of those people will not until the year and declare losses even the small business This may.... cause further regulation in the markets for retail traders because these are peoples companies (401ks, ira’s, retirement accounts, annuities, investments, hedge funds,etc.) were playing with and trading here. Retail traders treat the stock market like a casino and discount brokers are all too willing to accept trades and sell the data the other companies. The rebellion is nothing more than stupidity because a majority of the market is controlled by the few people and companies whom business it is to run their companies and the markets. There’s no rebellion...... if you think that you’re a looser and should stay off of social media for a few months Unpredictable results 🤣 I’m a boomer and I totally get it. Do you study investing before deciding where to invest? How? Let's share. Has anyone ever used TrustFinance? Does the bets place even make DD or propose possible ideas anymore or is it just one guy yoloing something once every other day? I dont think that sub does was msm thinks it does [deleted] And why not do this tone for other stocks time to get jobs at game stop and be awesome. And they will lose. You don't play chicken with kamikaze autists. At some point they will be right and the WSB army sell and buy their new homes for cash. The question is when, 420, 1000? It’s like retail investors have been playing online poker, except everyone else at the table was in the same room, sharing information. With GME, we know what they’re holding, and we know they can’t fold. So we just keep raising because the people backing them are the banks that are ruining the world for profit. Robinhood, indeed. Oh $BBBY a triple And they’re now down triple Damn they really took it in the ass now. And the stock price is tripling up lol Better for GME holders. I’m starting to think that there’s no limit to where this squeeze could go because even if the banks fail to cover the brokers, the fed can just bail them out indefinitely. I guess they're holding out for the eventual bankruptcy. Probably will happen for GameStop but AMC will recover. GameStop is an obsolete business, but AMC was just hit by the pandemic. Sounds like WSB is still pushing AMC and some others too. So it's going to be a crazy day tomorrow. Will the shorts fold or hold out? If they hold out, they could end up losing many billions more. Does that mean there’s a planet past Pluto? That is the way Think that's neatly summed up in "" Like 4chan found a Bloomberg Terminal "" Can I copy this?? Yesterday I found an old email where I sold 6 BTC for 2000 USD. F F Gl selling it at that price though I was today years old. Which is ironic because when you buy a stock you are literally giving to a rich corporation ... It’s like politicians who gerrymander getting upset that they lost. Finally some trickle down economics that works! To the privileged, equality seems like oppression. Fuck wall street, occupy the market. What is manipulative about retail investors buying and holding the stock? I just don't see how that crime can be pinned on WSB... Gamestop wasn't really being manipulated though. It's a dying company that is shrinking and losing money. That’s a bingo Was shorting GameStop really market manipulation? It's a dying company whose stock SHOULD be trending downwards by basically all measures of a company's financial well-being. What WSB is doing is disconnecting the value of the stock from reality way more than the short sellers were. ""short man bad"" is top comment on r/finance. lol, what a subreddit. The lesson is if you want to short, don’t try to manipulate the market by advertising it. who are MMs? just a noob tryna learn This is the way What time do they expire? I hope the rockets are still blasting come March TO THE FUCKING MOON !! 🚀🚀🚀🚀 GME LETS FUCKING GO Not enough rockets 🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀 What does it mean for shorts if calls expire? High likelihood a lot of them just took profits on crypto. Most brokerages who manage 401(K)s allow self-directed trading. I've made a bit of money on all of this craziness but it's all in my tax-deferred retirement account. You don't have to have disposable income to get involved. That being said... this is not financial advice and risk (or massively gain) your own retirement at your own peril. I think investor groups are the ones who actually made GME move. But I really do wonder who the few people are in WSB tossing tens or hundreds of thousands into fucking GameStop. Trust fund kids, crypto millionaires, who knows Probability why everything is crashing. They're getting revenge on us little guys. Yeah IDK where this ""the average joe going up against Wall Street elite"" comes from. These people dropping thousands into a meme are probably a bunch of privileged kids themselves. People are betting 500k+ some others millions. i am a bum, and i am in as soon as my bank account gets verified this is just an example of some really really greedy fucks at Melvin Capital being really really dumb and thinking no one could notice > disposable lol no it ain't. People are going broke or to the moon [deleted] My thoughts exactly. Fuck ‘em up. This kick in the teeth will cause changes in shorting. One or both of those funds will be bankrupt. first stop wendy’s. next stop, the capital Fuck that. Melvin is one of the largest hedge funds in the world. There are only about 40 hedge funds over $10b in AUM. Yes, there are trillions of dollars in the industry, but a ton of that money is at places like Vanguard where nobody gets stupid rich and the executives don’t wield outsize power. When you start messing with guys like Plotkin, you’re aiming at the rare air where the power brokers actually live. And now they've tied up all their capital in a dead asset. Yeah... the 2.5B they already lost and probably another 3-5B.. isn't quite like your Wendy's baconator special... because that shit is good. I’ll try but I’m no expert. Just went along for the ride. So last year a user, I don’t recall his Reddit username, but his YouTube is “roaring kitty” did some research in to GME and thought they had good fundamentals and also noticed that shorts were oversold. I’m not sure if know what shorting is, so I’ll just make a brief summary. Shares in a company are worth, let’s say , $100 and a short seller believes the company is going down. So they’ll borrow let’s say 10 shares from their broker with an expiry date to return the shares, I believe interest is charged too. So they get their 10 shares worth $1000 (10*$100) and immediately sell them. Now they wait until the price goes down let’s say to $1. They can then buy 10 for $10 and return the shares to the broker and they made $990 - interest. So with GME being heavily shorted the dude I mentioned earlier bought like 53,000 shares. WSB got in on the action to squeeze the short sellers. At some point they’ll have to return all the shares they borrowed, as of right now Melvin Capital is down $5B with a B. This is the end for them and likely Citadel too who injected a few billion in the last few days to weather the storm. Im missing loads of details as I’m not an expert, but the premise is MC tried to capitalise on a company going out to business and drove the price down from like $20 past $5 where they could have cashed out but greed kept them in and it went as low as $3. Friday is the next day when loads of shorts are due to expire at $65 and $115. We then had Chamath buying in today to further squeeze them and then an Elon tweet just sent the market crazy after close. Truly an incredible day. Shorting is likely to be changed after this and I think that’s a good thing. There is something morally wrong in capitalising on a bankruptcy whilst people are going to be losing jobs. Edit: The Reddit user I alluded to is deepfuckingvalue, I’m not linking as he likely gets lots of mentions. Dude must be up $35M+ [deleted] Louis [Louis Rossmann has been doing some pretty good videos on it](https://youtu.be/4EUbJcGoYQ4) It's going to be tricky for them to unload these shares without it being under a lot of SEC scrutiny. I can't wait to see how GME handles this, if they are even allowed to or have lockout periods in place The retards They fight for us Hello from the $379 moon 21 hours later 😂 That's what I really don't understand about the whole thing. What's the exit plan? Even if you force every short seller in GME to capitulate, it's not like it's going to magically turn around a company that's circling the drain. At the end of the day, we all know the price is going to crash hard from current levels. Even if you and all your buddies at /r/WSB manage to win, somebody's gotta be left holding the bag. The whole thing is nothing more than a distributed Ponzi scheme, to keep the price pumped up requires an endless stream of ever-increasing participants. Facts. Omg you’re bringing back so many memories dude A borrow from b to sell to C and d borrow from C to sell to E a stock can be shorted any % (in terms of its value) and the amount of stock u need to buy doesn’t change. If u owe 1 stock, u need to buy 1 stock. The % is the difference in its value If you own all 100 shares of a company and I borrow 100 shares from you and sell them to my cousin, he can lend those same 100 shares to Uncle who sells them to Grandma. Just created 200% short interest in the stock, but it doesn't really mean much by itself except that there are a bunch of people in my family with very different ideas of whether this stock is going up or down. r/wallstreetbets Maybe if it dips to 100 and the shorts are still pushing thier luck Only if you know when to sell when it hits peak Their Too Fat cats (hedge funds and money managers) bet Game Stop stock would stay low. Which it should based on fundamentals (it doesn’t make much money and the locations are in closed malls). A bunch of people realized they can push up the price because fat cats need to buy the stock to cover their bets it would stay low. Fat cats getting killed because they need to buy more shares than are for sale making prices surge from $5 to $220 over last few weeks. Dog peni? I get it now. Already invested 6 figures GME but I have another 7 figures ready to go tomorrow. Buy, hold. just like the people buying bitcoin at $10 or below genius here Trololololo NAKD Edit: Well wadd'ya know lmaoo ""Shorting a stock"" means someone is betting that the stock will go down in price. It is a complex process that involves an ""options contact"" of buying the stock at a later date, whether it has gone up or down. If the stock goes down, you make money. If the stock goes up you lose money. Too many people shorted the stock and now they have to buy shares to complete and close their option. So the price is getting driven up even though the company is still in bad shape. This price jump is a temporary thing, but may last days or weeks or months. Occubyte Wall Street ? The hedge fund invested are going to lose and there are only a few of those folks. Its not at all a Ponzi scheme. You should look up what a short squeeze is. That’s really, really well put. It almost certainly has to. But the memes are hilarious and I’m loving every minute of this shitshow. And cashing in a bit myself! But yeah, this is unsustainable. Watching the autists on WSB make $400k - $11m with relatively small investments is really satisfying though! Love to see it A company doesn't profit from its stock price surging unless it issues new shares to the market. There is no chance in hell the SEC will let GME dump worthless stock on a frenzied market to raise ridiculously easy money. GME the stock is doing great. GME the company is in the same exact situation it was 2 months ago. Bro not even close, it’s a public forum. People make their own choices. You sound like an options trader bullied you as a kid. As somebody who’s been lurking the WSB sub for awhile and finally decided to dive in — these are just young folks try to get their dough. Even IF retail traders are actually manipulating the stock price — why do you care? It literally has no effect on you unless you have a position in the stock. > it makes me happy that wall st suits are unhappy They’re not tho. Every time a financial instrument is traded, by redditors or anyone else, Wall Street makes money. Maybe if your family has money like that to pass on. But I'm guessing a lot of people don't, and being a millennial means you grew up in a garbage economy. Why not get while the getting is good? None of that wealth is going to the average person. Better to take it from them now There like pants but not as warm [deleted] r/wallstreetbets Like my prolapse It's over. The new rocket is BB and AMC Hedge funds got overconfident and used naked shorts. WSB bought a bunch of shares as well as huge numbers of calls that forced the seller of the call to cover their bet. Basically the same play SoftBank did this summer but WSB aren’t billionaires so there is a decent chance it’s illegal when they do it. Two systems. WSB just did their due diligence. The hedge funds put themselves in a risky situation with naked shorts and then have doubled down and then doubled down again. Lol Lookit this guy That’s just... like... your opinion, man. Jeez man you don’t even know what’s going on. Hush bot. Yeah, you got it. You borrow the stock, sell it. Then, ideally, you buy the stock at a cheaper price and repay the borrowed shares. **TFN: Trust for financial companies, CRM for business and Insight I've seen this while researching financial information.** borrow rates are insane, you might think the stock is going to go down but good luck even finding a borrow at this point, and its expensive to even get into a short right now. An individual investor might have the capacity to short it, but stock itself does not. The stock is already in a state of ""over sold"" which means the short sellers have literally borrowed more shares and sold said shares of the stock than what actually exists. At some point they have to buy to cover. And the higher the price goes, the more Guess what happens on Friday? A bunch of options come due. Not a small amount either. A large amount, which due to the current price are now ""in the money"". All of those would be worthless if the stock was at it's ""appropriate"" price of 20 dollars a share. And the higher the price of GameStop at close of friday, the more of shares of gamestop that the institutions underwriting the shorts will force the people in short position to purchase at whatever price they can find. When this happens, it's called a short squeeze (where shorts are forced to sell but other investors have bought up all the available shares to buy so they have to pay an exorbitantly higher price causing the shorts to lose a crap ton of money). So specifically in this situation, the shorts (mostly a single billionaire hedge fund called ""Melvin"") and /r/wallstreetbets (mostly autistic redditors in this for fun, profit, and sticking it to greeding hedge funds) are in a game of chicken with the gamestop stock. Except Melvin doesn't realize that the WSB side are happy to be irrational in buying decisions and buy at 150 when the stock is worth 20 based on rational measures of stock worth just to squeeze those shorts for every dime they have for being greedy. Oh, and when I say ""short squeeze"", don't discount it like some middle of the road short squeeze of some 100 mil or so. It's lining up to be the ""short squeeze"" super nova of the century. If WSB can hold the line, Melvin is going to to lose 10-100 billion over this. Friday, after close, gamestop stock price may, for one brief glorious moment, become the most valuable company in the world. Think above 1000 a share. Also, Elon Musk just tweeted recognition of the short squeeze with the single word ""gamestonks"" shortly after close and the overnight price of gamestop went from 115 to 240. (stonk is a term of affection for ""stocks"" in the WSB subreddit). Get ready for Friday. There will be fireworks. Yeah and a few hours the stock hits 220$ , why not go for it. You be the guy that underestimates retard strength stocks leme know how it goes. you'll see in about a week when they are bankrupt they'll be on t.v., maybe even Rogan, crying about how antifa did it Because if the bubble breaks after getting too big the whole fucking thing comes crashing down. Not the stock, the market. They don’t have the capacity though. Corporate greed. They are looking at theoretically infinite losses. They are donzo. They blew through 2 billion yesterday and paid all these news companies to shit on the stock and the people holding the stocks. Because they are losing billions a day why double down losing? BB AMC And you can experience the joy of a micromanager who will secretly call the store 4 times a day to ensure that you’re answering the phone call with some long script each time, *“hi thanks for calling GameStop where we give power to the players, your home for trade ins and buying and selling used games, where gamers are the gods and I’m just some shmuck, now selling funko pops and hoodies at a discount for our power up rewards members, how can I help you?”* and you get chewed out because you fucked up one of the sentences I mean I dont think that happens. I think the shorts go underwater and the fed gives the bank a loan best case for them. I mean I support all my brothers in tendies, at the end of the day you and other people have an opinions on the worth and future of companies. Its all meaningless holding stocks has no meaningful value outside of the volume( aka popularity) at which they trade. Im balls deep ok nok volume was like 6x usual traffic today. I thought about buying BTC in college for $9 each. I bought beer instead. Ah this one hurts to read F I had a buddy in highschool who had 11 of them at one point and used them to buy pot when he got tired of waiting for it to get big. It is (would have been) an ITM call. Very easy to sell. I still am, but I was also All I see are green lines That's not how stonks work Not only that but you’re buying it for the highest price. I mean, yeah - when you rig things to be unfair in your favour it's upsetting to lose. “The election was stolen, we cheated so much there’s no way we lost” Stab the hedge funds from below until their blood envelops you Well fucking said Autists unite! We just did It scares some because it's a display that EMH is complete and utter bullshit for all to see. Shorting anything to 140% is bad practice and possibility manipulation. Not really what market manipulation means. Stocks trade based on narrative, a narrative that is only loosely based on reality. Manipulating the narrative means manipulating the price. This is why insider trading is an issue - it’s not that you’re necessarily an insider on reality, but that you have info and know what the rest of the market will do when that info becomes part of the broader narrative. This narrative disconnect is why, for example, Tesla can be trending up despite its production bonafides being worse than its competition; the narrative is that Electric Cars are the Way of the Future and that by being an early player in electric car production, Tesla is uniquely qualified to dominate the entire auto industry in the future, while any near-term production issues will get sorted out as they optimize production over time. Is that the reality? Has Tesla actually optimized production in the last ten years enough that it could hit those ambitious targets by 2030? No. Has demand for electric cars been up? Yes. Has demand for all-electric cars been on track to eclipse the gas car and hybrid car markets by 2030? No. Getting electric cars down to affordable prices for buyers will require inherently unpredictable breakthroughs in battery technology - if the Tesla Model 3v2 in 2026 launches at $20k, then you’d see a lot more interest than the Model 3 at $38k. This narrative disconnect is also why companies and governments routinely give public statements, even if those statements are only barely not sufficiently bullshit for the market to not smell the bullshit. How many fluff piece press releases that are detached from reality could I find that have been published over the last month about a stock, specific stocks, markets, etc? Hundreds if not thousands. There’s paid analysts that routinely contradict each other on TV. Every bit of this is market manipulation by manipulating the narrative. In reality, GameStop is indeed a struggling brick and mortar business that’s largely present in malls that have been hit pretty hard by the pandemic, they’re also in a market (video games and tech accessories) that translates much better to e-commerce than other brick-and-mortar mall retailers, especially clothing retailers. They also have activist investors pushing for a major e-commerce pivot. How likely that is to work is questionable. The video game market space for purely digital games is pretty saturated right now, with first party stores on console and places like Steam, Epic, and GOG on PC. Not to mention publisher-retailers like the Origin and Activision-Blizzard stores. That said, a strong push towards DRM-free PC gaming combined with not using a mandatory launcher, better product details and sorting than a first-party console store, and the ability to buy physical copies and merchandise including accessories in the same store presents a strong argument for growth potential. Not that stocks are actually connected directly to the value of a company, as they’re only worth that if a company is acquired or liquidated. In the majority of cases they’re worth whatever you can sell them for, which is all about the narrative. This is the way. Is this the way? Is that a Mandalorian reference ? At market close on Friday. You could see something more powerful then last Friday if all the calls remain ITM Unlikely, i think we bust the shorts within a week. There will be other stocks, this isn’t WSB’s first rodeo Market makers need the shares to cover the calls they wrote. If every call expires ITM, like they did last Friday, that's a lot of shares. Meanwhile the shorts are hemorrhaging money and will eventually get margin called by the people they borrowed the shares from. When that happens, they either have to pony up cash to ensure they can cover their position, like $2.75 billion from their buddies, or buy the shares from the market to return to the people they borrowed them from. The second scenario gets increasingly expensive the fewer shares there are to buy. Given that the short interest was over 100%, shares are going to be very scarce just to start. Add in retail traders buying up a bunch of shares and holding them, shares are even more scarce. Now factor in market makers having to buy millions of shares to cover every call they wrote, since 100% are ITM (as opposed to the small handful that normally are, balanced by the vast majority that aren't) and you have a real tight crunch on shares because everyone is buying. If all the shorts get called in at once (and they generally do because once some get called in then the price starts to rise as they cover and more will get called in), the price could get ridiculously high. Now the problem with all this is that it has nothing to do with the value of Game Stop as a company so IF this all works then at some point the shorts will cover and the price will drop back down to something that represents the fundamental value of the company as a business. If you get caught at the top you're going to lose nearly everything I'm guessing (share value is probably more like $15-$50, depending on your thesis). Pretty funny to watch it happen to these short sellers though who really thought it was just another day of bankrupting some brick and mortar retailer but are now getting caught with their pants down. I have no stake in this, wouldn't touch it with a 10 ft pole, and am not giving any advice one way or another. Just my two cents on one possible scenario out of many. Can confirm! Some were crypto bros before WSB. The original yolo hodl rodeo ETH to ATH? What fun can I have with all this new $$? One of my friends got a gme stock as their free one from robinhood back in August. They are very upset the sold it almost immediately. Ding ding ding. Playing your retirement isn't really a good advice. Hopefully you have enough saved to assume the risks with using retirement money. Itsa me There’s quite a few that I’ve seen that have $1M+ into options and stocks right now. I have $1,500 riding on different positions and all are panning out for now.... Very easy to edit a website to show different numbers. Literally just right click, inspect element and change the number. Then take a picture and pretend you're a millionaire on reddit. Tens of thousands it can easily be young bros in tech and finance, guys who work in high paying trades, etc.. lots of 30 something’s out there making a couple hundred K or more with lots of disposable income and savings. Oof. I’m not too confident, a few funds are blowing up due to poor risk management. The same way funds blew up in the past due to risky moves and poor risk management. I imagine the street will make laws against mass retail buys before it screws its country club members. This. lol, no. They’re actually just trying to prevent retail investors and social media from trading stocks instead of looking out why the situation developed in the first place because then they would have to stop their illegal manipulation of the markets. One or two funds... out of thousands. Like I said it’s a big street /u/deepfuckingvalue is the user, their post history has a lot of details about the trade. I believe they bought CALLS, which are contracts that give you the option to buy the shares in the future at a ""strike"" price determined today. If the stock is worth less than three strike price when it ends the options are useless and worth nothing. If the price goes up the value of the options does as well. Another note is that for a short seller to close their short they have to buy shares, which will drive the stock price up even further. Thank you very much for that detailed explanation. TLDR: Investors tried to profit off of GME bankruptcy through short selling. Didn't go as planned because stonks only go up, silly. Good explanation, but this is far from the end for Citadel. 3B ain't shit to them. [deleted] > There is something morally wrong in capitalising on a bankruptcy whilst people are going to be losing jobs. Welcome to America. Thanks retard 🙏 Why would brokers have the stock in the first place? Especially of companies that are going bankrupt. Seems like bad business for brokers as I assume they have to buy shares to lend them. 48 Million. 😂 dude my investments make enough money that I retired at 36 and I've been working for fun for the past 10 years. Don't assume anything. If anyone is wondering I built a company and sold it to another in the states. Never looked back since. Became a real estate photographer to look at architecture and meet people. I work for fun, as opposed to most people, I'm not a slave....but I bet you are. Assuming they have nothing to do with this, I’d think selling treasury stock would be just fine, right? They already have an ATM offering for up to $100 million filed Dec 8th. In theory, leave the shorts holding the bag when they need to rebuy. But it's not clear that will ever happen. The current rise isn't a result of any short covering, even though that was the idea at first. So, many retail buyers could be the bad holders. A hedge fund shorted more shares than are in existence when he was at 80-90% of his original target profit on a huge short (which was already massive profits, hogs gets slaughtered) and u think retail investors are to blame? Blame for what, for noticing that the short interest is over 100% at the same time that the guy who made Chewy a monumental success is essentially taking operational control over GameStop? It’s just the reverse of buying a shitty stock at its all time high; what citron did was a terrible risk with hardly any reward possible. Yet u have sympathy for the “expert” who initiated this braindead maneuver? LOL u have absolutely no clue what u are talking about Yes. The hedge fund is going to lose. We are holding the shares they need to buy back. I think anyone with any sense will have walked away with their millions by now. The rest will keep holding and posting all this nonsense 💎👐 stuff until the profits evaporate this take is literally regurgitated from MSNBC. the people who will get left holding the bag are the MMs and hedge funds who have been manipulating stock prices for decades. fuck them, fuck all of them. If you watch the roaring kitty video from a few months back he explains why game’s actual business ain’t trash and is a good company You could've just asked ""what's a short squeeze?"" But thanks for the hot tank. Distributed ponzi scheme? Get a clue bud The irony being that short selling GME suddenly looks like a good idea Here's a question. Can the shorts dollar cost average to build up their own positions and all at once wipe their short from the books. People would freak the fuck out. Goes from a heavily shorted fuck them party to a game of musical chairs > The whole thing is nothing more than a distributed Ponzi scheme, to keep the price pumped up requires an endless stream of ever-increasing participants. That’s the stock market in general. They can just wait 10 or 20 years and reality will catch up you literally described how the economy works fuck head why do you think the Donald added trillions to the debt money printer go brrrrrrrrr Could someone with better understanding them me explain why the Hedge Fund couldn't just... not honor the option contracts and take the penalty fee? Or just declare bankruptcy? > Even if you and all your buddies at /r/WSB manage to win Except they won’t. A relatively few people will win: those who marketed the Ponzi scheme on reddit. It’s pathetic, really. It’s gonna cost them a crap ton then. I found [this post](/r/wallstreetbets/comments/l4r7cf/gamestop_shortsellers_lost_16_billion_in_a_single/) in r/wallstreetbets with the same link as this post. --- ^^🤖 ^^this ^^comment ^^was ^^written ^^by ^^a ^^bot. ^^beep ^^boop ^^🤖 ^^feel ^^welcome ^^to ^^respond ^^'Bad ^^bot'/'Good ^^bot', ^^it's ^^useful ^^feedback. [^^github](https://github.com/Toldry/RedditAutoCrosspostBot) Yeah I should of figured lol regardless good looking out homie Wow okay, I’m with you so far, thank you. How is the price being driven up? Is that where the redditors came in? buying the stock? a short position in a stock is not an option. It involves borrowing a share and selling it, with the obligation to return the share when the lender ask for it back, and to make interim cash payments for as long as the share is borrowed. If the stock goes down, you can make money by covering your short, that is buying it back at a lower price and returning the share while keeping the proceeds from the initial sale (less the interim cost of the borrow.) If the stock goes up, the position gets marked against the short seller as a loss. If the loss gets big enough, it triggers margin calls depending on the specific provisions of the custodial agent and broker, and the short seller will have to either post collateral or close out the position at a loss via buying back the shares that are now higher than the initial price. > Watching the autists on WSB make $400k - $11m with relatively small investments is really satisfying though! Love to see it Will you also love to see it when other autists on /r/WSB lose what little they have in the middle of a global pandemic and approaching global depression? So you don't think manipulation can happen in a public forum? There are plenty of people being paid to post here about stocks, same thing with all forums that focus on stocks. The are also plenty of hedge funds and mm that try to manipulate the narrative online to benefit themselves. Stock twits and Yahoo forums are notorious for this kind of thing. And yes people have free speech and can talk about their stock ideas, but I'm saying that there is plenty of organized stock manipulation happening in these forums that go beyond that. There are people on the forums that literally spend their entire days everyday bashing or pumping stocks using multiple pseudonyms across multiple platforms to steer the dialogue. [deleted] Pensions and retirement funds sit with these market makers as well. Just a thought. I would hate to have to pay for all the end of life care because the stock market wiped my parents out. Nice (upvote for you) I mean whats next after GME? Ty, I’m glad those WS scoundrels finally got what was coming to them. I can’t tell you how much money I lost on good stocks that the institutions sold short 1000s of shares to make my good stock plumet in price. It was like 63% today lmao This boomer hedge fund managers don’t understand that the fundamentals they are basing their position on don’t mean squat. Their manipulation tactics don’t work either;mainly due to the fact that when 2 million retail investors check Reddit after a price drop all they see is “buy the fucking dip and hold!!!!” HOLD THE LINE! [deleted] Why isn’t the game of chicken just who has money? And isn’t that answer the hedge fund? Can i contribute to this? Do i need 180$ to buy a whole stock or can I buy partial shares? I don't care about making money. I'd jusy like to donate 20$ as a FU to the stock market. I'm rooting for wsb. I don't have skin in the game cause I'm too scared but best of luck to them! Off you go to the 🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀 Elon can alone fuck the short up. But could he get in trouble for twittering about stocks he is invested in? Right? so Elon is not in on it himself. Wouldn’t it be funny if this idiotic GME shit triggers the worst financial collapse in recorded history? That’d be one for the history books...or clay tablets. It actually went over 300 overnight, its back down to 240, well get it back. Great write up but why the need to call them autistic. I don’t understand your reasoning here. What’s The mechanism to compel shorts to cover? Option expiration is not really relevant.call sellers should already be delta hedged so unless there is a huge move right before expiration it doesn’t affect them much. Is it speculation that the stock will move high enough to trigger additional margin calls on short sellers? Are you implying that those who sold the call options did not own shares of the stock, and will have to buy shares to be able to sell those shares when the calls are exercised on Friday? u/tilju462 Ha ha. Still upvoted 122 days later and Fridays still count. We will hodl as long as it takes! [deleted] Never bet against a meme How can you hold us responsible for our own action!? Why, please mister government bail us out. > crying about how antifa did it Some news are already calling WSB ""trumpers"" and ""alt-right"" gathering place. And than they call themselves ""journalists"" :D Then maybe the world of finance shouldn't be based on bullshit? They never said going to the moon would be without risks 🚀🚀🚀 Theoretically infinite up to a certain point in time. At this rate, the hedge funds are almost certainly bankrupt. This is retarded but it's logical, I'm not usually a risky investor, but I just might throw $5-10K into this and see what happens lol. Hubris Don’t forget naked lol As a consumer, that speech is super irritating. I’d rather just have someone say “Game stop, name speaking” so I can say what I called for. I don’t want to waste my life with that shit! ughhhhhh no winning Yes, but if you had bought it then, you probably would've needed the money long before it ever hit $100. I bought BTC in 2012. I spent it on darknet drugs. Weed literally cost me like $50,000 I see Mitch, I upvote. All I see are tendies that’s literally exactly how it works lol. Either you’re buying directly from the company issuing shares, or you’re buying it from a bank that owns it. ""Politicians are supposed to choose their voters, not the other way around!"" how do i short hedge funds ? Keep buying amc and game and naked Disagree. It fully supports EMH. WSB is super information rich and is diffusing that information rapidly via price action. EMH doesn’t care about whether the information is relevant in a fundamental valuation context only in a supply/demand context. EMH? Sorry, I'm a WSB retard and I'm not familiar with this acronym. My understanding is that it’s straight up illegal The way, this is This is the way. Retard. So does that mean Monday is gonna be 🚀🚀🚀🚀 So sell on Friday or Monday? i think they are going to go another week >WSB’s first rodeo I don't remember any others like what WSB done with GME 🚀🚀🚀BB🚀🚀🚀 AMC, SPCE, BB Thanks for explanation.' You should consider buying a single stock and holding to be part of history. Who cares if you lose. Story for the grand kids. > I have no stake in this, wouldn't touch it with a 10 ft pole, and am not giving any advice one way or another but I will watch with unconcealed glee. FTFY. It's not advice... it's just a statement for those who aren't aware they can control their own investments. I've sat thru more than my fair share of corporate retirement seminars and none of them really make it known that you can do it yourself if you're so inclined. You can let your retirement sit in mutual funds and be thankful for your 2% yearly gains or you can take control. If you're young and can handle the risk there's a lot to be said for learning how to manage it yourself. I've done significantly better than the market managing my own 401(K) outside of the GME and other general 2020 insanity. Obviously everyone else's mileage will vary and don't take on more risk than you are willing to lose. Mario? sure but that doesn't change the fundamentals of the situation someone shorted a stock 140% and now that price is going up, so someone has to pay, and it's a good bet if they are dumb enough to short 140%, they are greedy/dumb enough to keep shorting it until they are broke, which is what happened, now they found someone dumb enough to lend them money, and that person happens to be dumb enough to keep shorting until they are broke too it would seem someone has to pay, and if you think they are more greedy than they are intelligent, then you buy and hold GME because that is what they think you aren't smart enough to do as i said up there, i think the Mets are going to be for sale Shorts have infinite downside, so you need to be careful while playing them. These guys got too greedy and the market has punished them for it. Not for shorts this is the big whales. About ^yea big There are not thousands of funds this size, or close to it. There are less than forty. You have no idea what you’re taking about. Thanks for adding DFV link. I was too lazy to go check his name. You’re welcome. Hey a fellow retard 👋 Up to the moon. 🚀🚀🚀🌚 Thanks. This time last year I couldn’t tell you the difference between short and long or put and call. No probably not, it was a little hyperbole. Definitely the end for MC though. Holy shit, I didn't hear this. Us there a link to an article about it? How can MC force Gamestop to buy back stock? In the financial shape they are in, why would Gamestop agree? Where did they get 200m to do it? You can make money by betting that a stock will drop in price. And when you're in a position like some of these hedgefunds, it's less like betting because you can actually force what you want to happen, to happen. That's all the reason they need. > Don't assume anything. > I'm not a slave....but I bet you are. Nice. Also, no. I don’t think so, I spoke with a colleague in compliance (not individual securities, portfolio management) so he is admittedly not an expert but he said “He doesn’t see a world where the SEC lets GME dump worthless stock at this inflated price to investors” despite not being involved i doubt they can dump it but we’ll see? SEC stopped hertz before it happened i believe Dope! Lets see if the SEC allows it, i hope so! The flaw in that theory is that every short position creates a new long position. When Bob borrows 100 shares from Alice, then sells them to Charlie, now there's 200 shares held long. 100 for Alice and 100 for Charlie. Let's use the actual numbers for GME. There's 47 million share float. AFAIK it's all unrestricted common stock. There's about another 49 million shares shorted. That means there's 96 million shares held long. Let's say the day comes, the price pops to $1000, all the short sellers are margin called, and no other short sellers are willing to step. The shorts need to buy back 49 million shares. *But....* that's only enough to accommodate half the longs. What happens to the other 47 million? Are they just going to continue to hold GME at $100+/share? Why would *anyone* be willing to hold after the margin call event? Even if every short seller bought to cover tomorrow, it'd only be enough to pay out half the current holders. There's still going to be longs who are stuck holding the bag. How long can they hold the shorts though when they're paying interest on them He isn't blaming anyone though in his post. He does bring a valid point of ""what happens to all those shares retail investors bought"" when the squeeze ends? WSB isn't in GME for the long run. It's just another name for a pump and dump. Sure it will hurt Citron and other short sellers a lot and I have no problems with that, but which retail investors get stuck holding the bags once the ""dump"" begins? I'm sorry, I don't understand how any of that is relevant to my original point. The simple question is what is the fair, long-term value of the company. Assume that you had to buy and hold GME for ten years, what would you pay for it today? There's no way a rational person would say the answer to that question is over $60/share. The peak value of the company all the way back from 2007 was less than that. So, anybody who's holding long at over $60/share is counting that some ""greater fool"" will come along between now and then, and pay them more money than the already inflated value of the shares today. By definition, that is a Ponzi scheme. Thank you 👏👏👏 It's almost like the shithead financial types can't grasp what has happened here, lol. I can only hope that WSB continues to kick these guys asses. Did someone really made millions from this? [deleted] He had the sense to cash out over $5 million so far. Taking profits is the antithesis of the strategy Sell some shares and buy puts, ride the wave back down > Or just declare bankruptcy? Well yeah, they will probably be forced to do this, but that means they are dead. All assets seized and liquidated, and paid to creditors. You don't get it. A lot of people are fine with losing few hundred dollars to destroy Melvin. It's not about the money. Yes, more people buying then selling will drive up the price of any stock. Since the shorters have to buy the stock at some point, they will have to accept the high price. And multiple shorters are all trying to get shares of the stock, so that drives the price up even more. I mean, not really? Those people are very much aware they are taking on high risk and likely burning their money. It’s the same type of sympathy I have for people that lose big money in a casino. You hate to see it, but it’s not like anyone should really be surprised. Still sad but the vast majority are only losing amounts they are okay with. I think it’s more intense than this even Spike down in what? Can you be more specific? Are you saying a single day of red performance means the market is being manipulated and people have suffered? If you have been dollar cost averaging and just invest money into the market every month for the past year, you’d be up and wouldn’t care about one day’s performance. No long term investor cares about one day of performance. And days like yesterday are opportunities to buy more. Do you have any positions in the stock market? If you’re curious about how to get involved I would be happy to explain the mechanics. I’ve been investing for 3 years now and few very confident in the risk level of my portfolio relative to my age and income level. It’s confusing stuff and I’m still learning. I started trying to write out a valid response, realized I’m tired and not all that smart so I made a fun joke instead. Glad you like it. BB Short selling, in theory should be price neutral long term. They have to buy those shares back at some point. Now, if they short and then try to push narratives to *sabotage* share prices... *that's* pretty scuzzy. Darn right. We invest based on 🚀 not fundamentals. Boomers don’t get the YOLO factor. Riding the rocket ship 🚀🚀 “They’re manipulation doesn’t work because we’re manipulating too!” 100% correct Hodor! One of us! Not the commentator, but [this is a great article](https://moxreports.com/vw-infinity-squeeze/) on how a short squeeze can propel a stock to massive heights. Because the hedge fund can’t make time. Edit: OP described it well, but the real issue is that options come due on Friday and will force the Hedge funds to buy this overvalued stock at a loss, which only puts more money in the pockets of WSB buyers. It’s really about how hedge funds operate under rational greed, which turns out can be exploited by irrational collectivism. So the two sides are the WSB buyers, here on reddit, and the Melvin Capital hedge fund. These are who I understand to be the primary sides. Both sides have money. WSB people have more than a million subscribers. Many are casual peeps who have an interest in the stock market, but WSB also has a great deal of active day traders who have millions to spend. Collectively as a whole they have billions. I call this a game of chicken because some one is loosing money on this. If the sellers push the stock way down, it's the WSB people, if the WSB people hold the stock up at a high price, it's the hedge fund. Also - loss - there will be casualties on both sides. Melvin is a single entity and can mitigate loss with the gain in other spots. WSB are individual investors. The loss of one investor isn't going to be mitigated by the other investors making gains. Thus I say it's a game of chicken. Two cars driving down the center line of a road right at each other. The melvin peeps want to drive the wsb off the road, because they think the majority of WSB will blink and evacuate. But they aren't aware the autistic factor. WSB mindset is to have fun and destroy the Melvin car. AFAIK, yes you have to buy a whole share. And it's at 350 ish at the time I write this. You probably need to have an trading account in place, and have money in that account. I think there's are regulations that require you to wait a short period of time after you move money into the account to use the money. At minimum, standard electronic banking stuff. Think a couple days. I'm obviously not an advisor and don't take anything as a recommendation, or even correct. To contribute, buy GME (that's the stock ticker for gamestop). Then ""sell"" the stock using a limit order with a price of 1000, good until canceled. Or whatever price you are comfortable with. Be sure to use ""Limit"" and ""good until canceled"" (might be abbreviated gtc). ""Limit"" on a sell order means you won't sell below the stated price. It's is extremely important, as you don't want to sell at the current price. It also prevents your trading institution from lending your share out to someone. The ""Good until Canceled"" means that your order will stay up until you take it down. Otherwise it's till end of day, and the idea is to hold it through the end of the week. Where are you getting the $180 figure from? Market's closed, google has gme shares at $147, but ask price in the past few hour has gone as high as $320 although it's seemed to settle at around mid $200's. It's just a game of chicken at this point which is why WSB is telling everyone to HODL. Elon Musk is famously known for tweeting about Tesla’s stock and influencing the market. Since he was briefly the richest person on the planet due to that same stock, he definitely tweets about stocks he own. Sending out a tweet is the opposite of insider trading. It’s giving the world information. No way this will cause anything close to black friday or the great recession. This will likely spark a regulatory change on how shorts are allowed to work though. It seems like a term of love and affection in [wallstreetbets](https://www.reddit.com/r/wallstreetbets/search?q=autists&restrict_sr=on). Please head over to /r/wallstreetbets and ask there. You want a better answer than I can give. I'm just giving a high level view from how I understand it. I'm generalizing the conditions for the short squeeze. Here is what I have heard others say: If the stock is above 150 at end of Friday due to the options expiration there is a regulatory trigger to force buying of 8 million shares. There is as also talk of that number being 15 million shares. But you know what? Don't take my word on it, I'm not an advisor, I'm just repeating info I read elsewhere. I'm just trying to give a general idea of whats happening for those who haven't heard. Go visit /r/wallstreetbets for better description of the conditions. This happened last year. You can read about it in the news, but the ""may happen"" part only briefly hit some 500 before the stock got shut down. The highest end of day price call was recorded at 347.51. They did some dirty stuff to reduce over the year the price and it's been sitting in the 90 to 250 range. Melvin lost 6.8 billion. I think the current thing is Gamestop is going to release a NTF dividend which means no short will be able to cover it. So how did you get lost in a thread over a year old? Truer words have never been spoken. lmao Right, stocks have been all time high when shit is fucked out here. very much so. i don’t get why companies think having employees memorize this giant speech is going to help. make it a recording, play it a few times, add a jingle or something catchy. they have the budget for some marketing, right? that’s better than a distressed employee at the register with a long line on random game launch day and the phones going insane as well with questions about stock and the weather while having to spew a memorized speech in a cheery voice. crazy... and all the while, making sales targets. insane... There was a sketchy Chinese place I loved to frequent right after I graduated college called Heng Wong. My friends and I called it ""Hung Dong"" It was takeout only. Calling in an order, the same lady always answered and blurted ""Hengwoh watchu Wan"". When you told her what you wanted, she'd complete the transaction by saying the price, like ""twelve fifteen than you"" and hanging up. That's the level of service I appreciate. Quick, unintelligible bur somehow still crystal clear, and straight to the point. Ryan you best be listening. 100% I would have probably cashed out at $12 if even that. Go long on stocks they have over-shorted/naked-shorted. Efficient market hypothesis, the idea that stocks will tend to trade at their fair value In this case, the value of GME might be fair in terms of supply/demand, it's just wholly unrepresentative of company performance. Though you could probably say the same for Tesla. Efficient market hypothesis. Well 140% of float, not all shares. Shorting 140% of total shares would be illegal, but since float is always much smaller than total shares, its legal. That said, it’s dumb as shit because it means you’re going to be driving most of the volume on expiry day with your own sales. The only way to not have it be incredibly stupid is if you were to buy 10% of the float in shorts each expiring on 14 different days. You’d still be doing a significant portion of the day’s volume in your own sales each day, but it’d be enough less that it wouldn’t be stupid. The thing is that any stock that’s got 140% of its float shorted is in for a wild ride because of how much volume, even spread out over many days, is going to be driven by short sellers. Since that 140% number is public, other market members can see that and deliberately do things to the market to either help you make money or fuck you over. It is what it is. Eat shit I'm not sure how it all works. If they all remain ITM at EOD on Friday I'd imagine Monday would be another powerful day but I'd rather someone with much more knowledge answer that. Either way 🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀 confirmed Set a limit sell for a few thousand dollars per share. Wait for someone to do the DD on the shorts position before selling I’ve been around for 7 years on that sadistic sub and you are 100% right. But you never know, this could be the start of something >You can let your retirement sit in mutual funds and be thankful for your 2% yearly gains or you can take control. Says a lot about your position when you're vastly understating the average gains of mutual/index funds. 2% is no where near the average, mean or expected return. I’m aware of the downside risk. It’s still an insignificant number of funds Where did I say funds of that size? I’m saying there are tons of funds This is one fish that’s blowing up like Amaranth blew up on nat gas Were going places fam 🚀🚀 🚀🚀 🚀🚀 🚀🚀 Yes, you are a slave I checked you out. Secondly how does it feel when someone assumes something? Not fun huh. The SEC did stop Hertz from selling shares but they were literally in the midst of bankruptcy proceedings. GameStop selling shares would be more akin to when Tesla offered new shares during one of their recent runups. I think it would be corporate malpractice not to do some kind of issuance at this price, even if it is only for one million shares or so. Why wouldnt they be able to share their un locked shares at fair market value? That doesnt make any sense. Any company can do that like even moderna when it was pumped up. Fair is fair. It is a bit of an ethical conundrum for sure. The board would be making secondary offerings at prices that they know are unreasonably high and that the new owners would be almost certain to lose money, but they also have a fiduciary duty to their current shareholders to maximize value. At the current prices it seems obvious that the most beneficial action for their current shareholders is to raise funds with a secondary offering (even though it dilutes those owners) and locks new owners into a loss. To fail to do so seems a worse violation of their fiduciary duties. Good point. Some people will be burned badly, within the next 2 weeks I'd say. I got out at $50 unfortunately, but I'd be having a panic attack holding at $200 now, so don't mind just watching now. Or look at Porsche / VW in ‘08. There were something like 12% of float shares shorted. Not too bad. But Porsche bought up like all but 1% of shares. So the 12% short holders all simultaneously rushed to buy 1% of shares, momentarily making VW the most valuable company in the world. The dream with a play like this would be to sell at that peak. That peak in this case could be astronomical. $1,000+/share. Completely devoid of any basis in real value. But it could be epic. The shares get bought. If the person who shorted can’t cover, then the lender covers. That is why margin calls are a thing. The interest is minimal, they could hold years. The 100% short interest fee isn't what major hedge funds are paying. The danger for them isn't the interest, but a margin call if they get offside enough, and someone just takes over and liquidated their position. Dividend yield is 1%. If borrowing costs return to normal that's likely under 1%. They can 2% for a long long time. If the stock has a borrowing cost of say 5% then likely the puts are expensive so they sell covered puts against their shorts and early like 30% against a 6% financing fee. So the answer is, a decade if they have to. Covering the margin calls may be tricky. Holding the position wants it stop rising fast, not so much. The goal for retail investors is to sell during the huge short squeeze that is coming over the next few weeks as the short sellers are forced to buy. You’re assuming thats how stocks work (fair price). The reality is what we are seeing is just supply snd demand . The short sellers created the demand by artificially increasing the supply for long periods of time. Meanwhile at the bottom some people are like hey this literally cant go tits up lets buy some shares. Lets say the stocks fair price is 20$. At some point it was 4$ and these guys kept shorting it. Those capitalizing are doing so on the basis of a guarantee that short sellers have to buy back at some point. these idiots have to return 100%+ of a stock time now. And so if you have to buy 100% of a stock back its hard to feel shocked that its price goes through the roof. People are buying to trigger a short squueze not because of fundemental value on a long time frame. Exit strategy is when short float decreases significantly and price shoots up to the Pluto, we gonna sell and live wealthy lives. Shorts will have to buy shares to cover or get margin called way before we need to find another retail buyer for the stock. That's the plan, that's the DD. While I agree they are waiting for the greater fool, I have come around to realize that the fact that there are more shorts than available shares means they have a great supply of forced greater-fools... the shorts will have to cover over time, thus allowing people to exit from the trade. I am sure many will still get caught holding bags... but it is a best-case scenario for trying to extract some of the value by taking it straight from the shorts. Well the hope is that it's mostly hedge funds holding the bag because they're covering... But of course when the music stops it's going to fall like a rock...a lot has to do with the nature of the shorts and their expiration That’s not how economics works dude... no such thing as a fair financial asset. Hell, some are even restricted if you know anything about this stuff. Demand makes price go up it’s fundamental not fair. When talking about GME these days this is the rule of thumb: I see a comment with negative upvotes: that person thinks rationally lol No one is gonna hold long not from this at least What a company used to be may have nothing to do with future expectations. Do u think that the guy who made Chewy wildly successful is joining the board of the company just so that he can let GME keep doing the same thing it was doing before him? /u/DeepFuckingValue u/deepfuckingvalue but he made those calls last year One in particular made 10s of millions. Also, Michael Burry, the guy who called the Great Recession. On paper. As far as I know he is still holding his position. If he sold now he could walk away with a lot of money and internet hate. I think it's more than a fair trade. >Did someone really made millions from this?. ​ 50k -> 25MM by our King DFV That's true of just about any kind of gambling, which this certainly is. If people are doing this with money they would have otherwise spent in vegas, or on sports betting, or poker night then seems ... whatever. I hope nobody is putting their life savings or kids college fund into it. > There is also a very real possibility at this stage that either the exchanges or the SEC step in, and halt trading in the stock for a day or longer if it goes any higher, which will create panic in the unsuspecting WSB crowd that has never seen something like that. Which promptly happened. forget doctcom, think 2018 bitcoin bubble pop >strategy Lol How many of these shares do you hold? At what price did you buy? Ok that’s pretty awesome. Thank you very much for filling me in, this is pretty great to enjoy...what are all these redditors gonna do with their stock now? Won’t the novelty wear off and then the impending sell off cause GameStops stock to drop fast again? yeah sure that the majority WSB folks are comfortable with the sure-to-come losses you may enjoy the party, just don't lose your mind, make sure you can manage the losses and sleep well AND give one-star review to Robinhood [deleted] Sometimes you have to laugh or you'll cry and whats after BB Fuck Spez Which is hilarious because that actually is a solid understanding of fundamentals, but a shit ton of people have no idea why. A friend of my parents works in PE and is seriously trying to say that this Reddit is posting fake news😂they really don’t get it! It's Russian roulette and one side has much less to lose and are enjoying the shit fight! Nope. We simply LIKE THE STOCK Hold the Hodor! This is the way! Volkswagen it's not irrational these people literally advertised ""we are bluffing, but only people from harvard can do anything about it and they won't because we went to harvard too"" and now they are literally fucked and hoping that everyone sells on friday because they think everyone is stupid, they go on t.v. and say it, they say shit like they think everyone is stupid they are going to short it until they are bankrupt, because they think they can't lose even though they are already losing, it's hilarious translation: the Mets are going to be for sale soon But is it even legal? Edit: they already caved in. congrates to WSB i guess :P I know, I know, but sometimes it’s fun to imagine. Yea after reading through their own commentary I see it’s a running self inflicted joke. Sort of hilarious that you are saying I would get a better answer from r/wallstreetbets than from r/finance but in this case it might actually be true. Happy cake day. Totally reminds me of a pizza place I used to work for. My favorite order I placed was calling up and ""Italian Pizza"" ""Two Chicken Parms"" ""Ten minutes."" *click* And how do you find out which hedge funds have shorted which stocks? 13f only shows long well in a way they're removing fucking morons from the market it's just those morons have spent decades pretending they're smarter than everyone else if you short a company 140% you are basically risking more than everything you have and that is kind of dumb isn't it? and now they are on t.v. blaming other people for noticing Is it what is it? It’s what it’s Harsh. This is not the way Take a joke. Learn the culture. I just saw rocket ships, good enough for me I've had contracts that I thought expired OTM only to check next day and see the shares... so sometimes that seems to happen either right before close or during after hours. How do you do that? My mutual funds gained 24% last year... way more than their average but I'm not complaining. For real even in a year that contained an economic meltdown my passive investment 401k earned 18% I’m saying if the price goes high enough anything can be torn down. Obviously many companies have a lot more liquidity than Melvin Capital could ever dream of, but we haven’t seen for far this can go yet. They will go bankrupt, this is not insignificant Amaranth was a huge deal and sent shockwaves through the industry, which is exactly the point you’re trying to suggest isn’t true. Who cares if there are thousands of funds? I'm same boat as you - not working because I need to, but because I'm still young and enjoy it, plus the money is good. Not sure what you ""checked out"". Fair enough, I'll stop assuming. No this isnt a run up its a short squeeze, not akin to teslas runup it would be selling during a short squeeze! One price is manipulated, one price has momentum. Very, very different This isn’t pumped its a short squeeze, trading was halted several times already for the position. I hope gme can make some money off this but its unlikely imo [deleted] I think a lot of regular people are going to get burnt badly, dare say more than if the shorters did their thing unopposed. At some point it’s going to crash, the question is your average WSBer going to be able to trade fast enough to get a buyer on the way down. I doubt it. Also do we know for sure the initial wave of money is “regular” money and not the same type of manipulation just from another institution; and then backed by “regular” money. If big money has a private stop at less than 1k that could trigger a domino that starts a race to the bottom. We’ll hear about the wins but there’s going to be a lot of loses that get swept under the rug. I got paper handed and sold at $150 for a nice premium from my $38 buy-in. 12 hours later I'm reeling from a missed 150% further gain. I guess we'll know by Friday But if there is a lot of sellers, then its not a squeeze. wow what a clever move. Man that's playing with fire, that's not how a healthy stock behaves. Smells like P&D. Also everybody saying they love this stock etc. so why are they planning to sell in a few weeks😂😂😂 But then what? You are describing what is currently happening, what happens when the shorts covered? Who will actually buy the shares of GME at $1,000 of a WSB guy at that price? No one. And so it can't do anything but drop once the squeeze ends. This is literally a pump and dump strategy by another name (pump and force short squeeze, dump once the squeeze happened) >The reality is what we are seeing is just supply snd demand . >The short sellers created the demand by artificially increasing the supply for long periods of time. Increasing (or decreasing) supply does not change demand. It changes the equilibrium point between the two. This \^\^\^ right here........ Even if every short is margin called, there's still twice as many shares held long as short. Every short sale creates an equivalent long position. If Alice borrows 100 shares from Bob, then sells them to Charlie, now there's 200 shares held long. 100 for Bob and 100 for Charlie. The short interest is 49 million shares. But there's 96 million shares held long- 47 million float and another 49 million shares borrowed then resold. So, even if the liquidation event happens, there's still going to be twice as many longs looking to cash out as there will be shorts forced to buy back. The math only works out, if at least half the longs are willing to hold *after* the short squeeze. Who is gonna buy when prices are on Pluto after the squeeze? Also that's an awesome way of risking to blow your f\*cking capital. What if the squeeze never happens? Great plan until you realise that the short sellers just up and declare bankruptcy with little to no consequence. The made a play, it failed, roll up thr company. No directors or CEO's lose any assets, and the schmucks holding to the moon are stuck holding a rapidly dropping stock that only a retail moron would buy. Bullshit. Everybody just looking to ride opportunities for 2 weeks lol and they talk about fundamentals, and how they love Gamestop company etc etc. All they care is to sell high in a few weeks. AKA to find somebody to pay well more than GME will be valued. And WSB thinks they're more ethical than hedge funds lol Praise be his name. When this guy cashes out there is going to be a bloodbath. So many people are going to take it as a sell signal, the exchange is going to have to halt trading on the way down. If I worked at one of the hedge funds holding the bag here, I’d cut him a $25 million check to sell everything tomorrow just to save my own ass. Edit: yes, I know that would be illegal. It’s a hypothetical not a recommendation. He may actually turn 80k to 9 figures. Absolutely insane. He sold $2M worth today when it hit $120 or so. Not sure what he’s still holding [deleted] Lots of people are. I mean the idea is too hold through call expirations and through forcing short sellers to cover. There is more to it than YOLO How tall are you? Do you like pizza? It sounds like this will all wrap up within the next few weeks, after the existing short positions all close. It's a small window of opportunity, hence the excitement. I did, but it looks like Apple is protecting robinhood. There have been no new reviews on the App Store since yesterday and I don’t see my review on there. You’d think there should be a bajillion 1 stars by now. Wall Street GUH? No one has been prepared for the weaponized autists in all fields. STONKS Lmfao The Wall Street sharks have now learned to fear the piranhas. I think shorting any stock past 100% of its available stock issue is going to become a whole lot less popular after this fiasco. There may be some big short positions similar to this already out there that they can't back away from fast enough however. Those might be additional targets for the piranhas. But within a month or two those will be dealt with one way or another and after that none of the sharks are going to be stupid enough just short as deep as they did with GME. Weaponized autism cannot be defended against. Especially in regards to boomers who have no fucking idea what's happening or why cos they're so fucking disconnected with what's really happening. What is really happening? You remember [this scene from the dark knight rises?](https://youtu.be/UmmV8cRoZTk) Yeah, pretty much that. anyone can invite me into that sub? :< If the dude works in private equity, he doesn’t give a damn about Reddit. He already has “fuck you” money. To be clear, I agree that WSB are acting rational, but they are labeled as “irrational” by wall streeters (from what I’m gathering by other comments). Of course it's legal. Financial institutions do this shit all the time, they even run negative campaigns on companies they short telling everyone how the company is shit and losing money to tank their value. That's one of the reasons WSB hates Melvin. Yep. It's basically a ""we smoothbrain monkeys and autists"" all the time. After being in both forums, WSB has more people with better understanding in this. You just got to accept the frat party atmosphere, instead of the grandparent's house atmosphere of /r/finance. Thanks fam! Simply bet on every move in r/wallstreetbets 😆 Hedge funds and other institutions control the vast majority of the market. Just look at the most shorted stocks. https://www.highshortinterest.com/ >other people Literally claiming it’s foreign interference to sow chaos in the market cuz they didn’t get their gains 😂 It’s a good thing, not a bad thing. “That’s just the way it is” — Bruce Hornsby Eat shit too “Culture”. Just browse the wallstreetbets reddit And my fidelity aggressive growth fund (fgckx) earned 67% last year vs 18% from whatever age defined fund (fidelity 2040) they put you in by default. His point is that you dont have to stick with what they automatically put you in when you first enroll. I think you’re just repeating what I’m saying lol Reread what I said. No, it is a run up. The cause is a short squeeze but it is a run up nonetheless. This is not manipulation, it's just a market movement, from what I can see there is nothing illegal going on here, obviously there could be behind the curtain. It is simply just risky retail traders making enormous bets on a low float stock. What legal reason do you see the SEC would invoke to prevent a stock offering? Because from what I can tell there is none. Can't it be both? Buying / selling shares on the open market doesn't really do anything to ""back"" the company. The main way stock prices help companies is when the company can do something with the shares it holds - like sell them into high prices and use the proceeds to pay down debt/improve the companies balance sheet. If they sold enough that the shorts could cover, it might collapse the price inflation, but if it was also enough to get the creditors off their back, pay off debt, and put some cash in the bank, their long term valuation might be way higher than the value put on them by the big funds. The big fish look at a company and say ""given their debt, sales, future forecasts, etc, we believe their worth X and since the stock is way higher, short!"" And wsb says ""lol... Stonks go up!"". Best move for the company is to make moves that support higher valuation. Lol ppl will be trying so hard to cash out that theyll drive the stock price down to break even value for the last shorters WSB has no shame in bragging about their losses fortunately. More stocks are Short than there is float. Because it’s definitely not actually worth $215 a share. But I though it is worth more than the $15 I bought it at expecting to hold. The current price doesn’t reflect the company at all, but it would be stupid to not sell for a large profit at the expense of a large company that makes nothing and provides no real services. I agree with what you are arguing, Im just saying its nothing to do with those buying in to force the squeeze and is set in motion by the greedy hedge making it happen. Ideally they are the ones left holding the bag. People shouldnt be buying shares at this price point and I dont think many are I think you are seeing the volume being driven largely by shorts covering and taking out another short position. Keep in mind a short results in 2 transactions, a sale and a purchase . That means every share has been sold once already and needs to be repurchased and a every additional position will result in 2 more additional transactions. Shorting should probably be illegal its market manipulation and in of itself. The problem is shorts are not closing their positions atm. So we will gonna see how long can this be rode out. 1 short goes down, 1 short spawns, at least that's what short ratio tells us. So this back and forth might go for a long time. Yes someone will be left holding the bag, but how much will the price really crash? Maybe GME can complete is restructuring while this back on forth goes along, so even if someone is left holding the bag, bag will be worth more than their initial investment still. I don't even understand what Wall Street is trying to do atm. They are literally bleeding more money than they can afford. If this battle goes on for long, only long positions will be on the positive anyways. But he has his DD! Shorts, there are more short positions in volume than there is shares, even everyone decided to sell at the moment, they won't have enough shares to cover. That does mean, if we hold long enough, their short positions will collapse and they will get margin called and they will have to rebuy stock to close their short positions. Imagine the price is 1000 dollars atm, they would be losing upwards of 100 billion dollars in a single day, they would have to close their positions, or they won't get themselves outside of this trade, ever. [deleted] All investments come with risk. Don't buy GME after it hits higher than your risk tolerance. For historical examples please see the VW squeeze. People said that when the stock was at 20 dollar too. Now I'm up more than a thousand percent. 5 days ago I had 15k total, now I can buy a Porsche. Please tell me how my capital is going to get blown. I can just sell in this instant and gain more money than most retards will see in their whole lives. This has happened before, short squuezes aren't rare, and if you read up on the previous one, most people got out of that deal millionaires. Some will eventually be left holding the bag, but if you are even half smart and quarter clever, you couldve gone in at 10 and got out at 200 with some calls on top, you couldve gained upwards of thousands percent. You don't really need to ride it out till it hits the fucking outer space if you really are risk averse. Even if they do that, they have to honour the option contracts, even if they can't , MM will have to cover the contract. If they declare bankruptcy it will hit market makers more than shorts. MM won't let that happen. This happened before, eventually shorts had to get bailed out by MM. Still we don't even have to wait for the Pluto, for some selling at the Sun or Mars will suffice. Most of us will end this thing in positive. By definition this is a zero sum game. If shorts go negative, someone else must be in the positive. When retail plays the same game institution plays, suddenly risk averse morons find fault in retail but never find fault in the idiots that shorted a ticket more than it has float. So hedges can run down a stock artificially because they don't like it, but we can't pump it up artificially so we become the bad guys. No body claims moral superiority, institution just got caught pants down, and you are sore because you didn't get called to the party. MY LORD AND FUCKING SAVIOR [deleted] 53k actually. Which is even crazier Good call, even if he holds through to 2029 at least he got something out of the ride. As of this AM, >$20 mil. Maybe 40 now... you're telling me that buying short dated calls on a thinly traded stock that is moving with 200% intraday based is not like throwing down on black? Yea i mean i understand the short squeeze. I'm saying if I'm up 880% on my shares that i bought because some guy said 🚀🚀🚀 i don't give a fuck about GME or citron or whoever whatever grand plan there is. I'm taking the cash before I get left holding the bag What do short sellers have to do with call expiration? What if they don't cover? I don't know shorts or options, but usually contracts have things like penalties and exit clauses for non-compliance. Or just bankruptcy? Why can't the hedge fund just say ""Nope I'd rather take the penalty fee on the option contract instead of paying billions for trash."" Thanks again for answering all my questions, you’re great! This was very informative and now I can enjoy the content that is currently making up like a 3rd of my Reddit feed lol GUH guy for president *GuH* GUH HUH Fudge. Thanks, lol you might be right, but there is a lot of noise at wsb and I'm not sure I have the patience to filter it. finance sub, on the other hand, is usually too quiet. This is the way This dood ain’t autistic I guess. Fuckin full brain prancing around with my girlfriend as I watch. Fuck Is there a better way with slightly less chromosomes and autism? Not no autism, just....less That's fantastic, congrats. no he's saying that more funds are going to bail out these guys with the idea that ""these internet idiots are going to sell as soon as they can afford a new t.v., what can a t.v. cost? 10,000 dollars?"" it's a situation where old people are betting that this is the year 2010 and not 2021 i mean GME is impossibly high why would you not short it? lol I'm not, you said it's an insignificant number of funds, I'm saying due to the nature of shorts, any high enough price can fuck people shorting, no matter how big the institution. How is 5b in one day insignificant The reasons i listed, but i hope you’re right. I love gamestop and hope they get something good out of this I hope so, i fucking love gamestop yeah I've unfortunately learned through this that a lot of people don't realize just because a stock tickers has a certain number next to it doesn't guarantee a buyer at that price. I doubt it gets to 1000 but if it does I don't understand what they think is going to happen, do they really think Robinhood is buying this stock from them at 1k? Until there's not. What happens when they give up? They buy and return the shares and then the musical chairs music stops playing and everyone realizes that the smart money already left Man pre-market and it’s 283 lol crazy. Never seen anything like that > Ideally they are the ones left holding the bag. They can't be the ones left holding the bags, they don't hold shares. Even if they cover their short, they still don't hold shares. Someone has to hold those shares once the squeeze ends. I'm all on pro destroying wallstreet shorts, but I mean after the price forces everyone out of their shorts, most of the stocks will be held by wsb pumpers and while some will exit rich, the rest will get fucked over on the way down, no? What happens if they move their funds offshore and declare bankruptcy once they get wind that the margin call is coming? The criminal justice system hasn't exactly had a great record of holding people who commit blatant fraud accountable so couldn't this just turn into another instance of the super rich playing the system? I'm honestly asking. I don't fully understand the scenario here And then? Who tf is gonna keep the price at 1000 lol Man I totally get what you’re saying... I may have made some small plays but in Italy it seems almost impossible to get to trade options, or at least my bank and also the other broker I use (trading212) doesn’t let me trade US options... also I would need to buy minimum of 100 options which is a lot. So many times I miss opportunities because the only things I can do is to go long buying a stock or trading shitty CFDs which I don’t really like Citadel already started bailing out Melvin yesterday I guess you're right. I'm not saying hedge funds did something good by shorting that stock. Of course they did a really bad move lol. I should pay more attention to what happens in the market This is like Extreme Makeover for male nerds. Yes. He gets to sell tomorrow for $22.8 million AND a check for $25 million. That’s my point. Basically double the value of his *current* investment to save them. Nah I went through all of his trades to learn how he tried to maximize gains with options on a bullish thesis, he put in a little more money a couple of times when the stock got hammered. Ex: [he adds 7k in this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/wallstreetbets/comments/e9gmtk/gme_yolo_update_following_nightmare_q3_earnings/). [deleted] Fair Someone is going to have to give up those shares at assignment Not really, r/options might post info, but the best is wsb oh you're talking about ""tHeOrEtIcAl iNfInItE LoSsEs"" do you think funds and brokers have 0 risk management? this isn't the wild west lol. margin calls are probably happening daily for anyone short I’m just gonna quote myself cause I’m not sure what you’re missing: “ a few funds are blowing up due to poor risk management. The same way funds blew up in the past due to risky moves and poor risk management.” “It’s still an insignificant number of funds” I’m saying the NUMBER of funds is insignificant not the amount lost (it’s also impossible to say what the true amount lost is but that’s a diff story). The stock only has value to the last person to sell it. If I were them, here's what I'd do. I'd be buying shares and when I have enough to cover my own short positions, I'd use them to do it all at once (or if that's not a thing you can do buy and sell them at the same time) and all at once, there's no short squeeze only hype. This party would run on fumes for all of about 5 minutes and there'd be a race for the door. My point is, however this plays out, the winner ride it up but never see the top. WSB might call you a gay bear, but that doesn't cost you money Bag holders, lots of bag holders. The hedge funds will be margin called, liquidated and contractually required to buy back shares regardless or price. The billionaire investers in them will lose all the money they had in the fund and will still owe billions. Those are the people who will be left holding the bag when we sell for over $1,000. Shorts will have to buy stocks that retail sells or they can't close their positions and lose hundreds of billions. Tell that to TSLA holders. Assuming GME price returns to levels supported by the financials of the company then yes, anyone who bought at high prices will get screwed. Ideally most of the people who are buying high are those who are short now, until the short interest has completely closed out. There will absolutely be a lot of regular investors who make a lot of money, and a lot of regular investors who lose everything. Anyone who buys now and doesn’t sell at just the right time will lose 90%+ Marketmaker has to cover the contract. So marketmaker will sue those criminals to the oblivion. That's in the realm of law and beyond my knowledge though. İnteractive Brokers have international accounts , and you can buy options. I'm in Turkey we don't have Us options anywhere too unless you want to give your money to shady brokers. And they're already losing that money. Melvin is doubling down. Short interest isn't changing much. Ah fair enough. Still wild nontheless it's more like playing the pass line in craps while idiots are throwing $100 on the face combos. Not necessarily... at least not to the magnitude you’re probably imagining Here's a sneak peek of /r/options using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/options/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year! \#1: [Can mods ban wallstreetbets behaviour and talk?](https://np.reddit.com/r/options/comments/fvgbu6/can_mods_ban_wallstreetbets_behaviour_and_talk/) \#2: [Lost 100k today in 3 minutes.](https://np.reddit.com/r/options/comments/kj5pa5/lost_100k_today_in_3_minutes/) \#3: [I hated all the Apps for viewing Stock Reports on the AppStore... Most of them are not optimized for mobile, cluttered with ads, or too expensive so I made my own FREE one. Its called Stox and you can read all Reports (10-K, 10-Q,..) of US Stocks, adaptive for mobile devices.](https://v.redd.it/9wy5n1k9eg551) | [186 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/options/comments/hap5cl/i_hated_all_the_apps_for_viewing_stock_reports_on/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| [^^Contact ^^me](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| [^^Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| [^^Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/joo7mb/blacklist_viii/) Lmao I'm sure Melvin and Citron had expensive risk management teams. How are they doing right now? Large institutions prey on faith that they know what they're doing. They abuse it. Yes, most of the time they do in fact, make money, but if it's their clients or them, they'll gut the clients without a second thought. Melvin and Citron definitely thought the same way until all of this happened. It's going to be a slaughterhouse You don't seem to understand what bag holding is. Ok, they're margin called and forced to buy back the shares. Check. Agreed. Then what? They shorted the stock, so they buy back the shares and return them to who they borrowed them from. Then no one is short GME anymore. People who are long are holding massively over valued stock that can't/won't increase in value and doesn't pay dividends. EVERYONE SELLS! the fast make money or the smart already did. The slow watch their portfolio plummet But the whole strategy is retail sellers will not sell so shorts can't cover. This doesn't work. And when all short sellers have covered (or those that cant wait this out), the shares are overvalued and people will sell. Someone after this is all done will be left holding shares. Who is that? TSLA is an amazing company, can't compare it to pump and dump GME come on lol But if they move their assets off-shore and then declare bankruptcy how would they recover the funds? Isn't that basically what happened with Lehmen brothers? They got margin called and declared bankruptcy due to not being able to pay the positions. I don't see the government stepping in to bail anyone out in this situation. Well something seems to be happening because it is ridiculous They’re probably not losing infinite dollars that’s for sure. You dont seem to understand what a short squeeze is, but to each their own. TSLA was in worse financial condition with fewer shares shorted a few years ago than GME is today. GME has a compelling turn around story that has yet to play out. They're both fundamentally mis-priced. No. It's not. They were forced to liquidate by their creditors because they were more than 20 times leveraged. You can be damn sure market makers have already cordoned off capital to cover current and future losses. That's why Melvin needed a $3B cash infusion yesterday. (which he almost entirely lost today). And it's a ridiculous scenario. You can't just move billions of dollars off shore when you're already in debt. It takes years. This is honestly the last thing anyone should be worried about. No I get what it is, do you? People buy shares, short sellers are forced to cover their position. Who is left holding the shares when it's all said and done? Someone has to hold the shares after it starts to drop because it's over. That's the bag holders. That's not the short sellers. They buy to close their position so they don't own any shares. So who does? I suppose that would be your long term investors who are interested in seeing where GME goes in a year or two. I wouldn't mind keeping a couple stock in post-squeeze to see if they're able to pull their vision off. Maybe they really are the next Amazon of gaming, who knows? But, I think when the dust settles the shares I have will still be worth more than I originally invested. I think the bag holders in the sense that you're getting at, the extreme losses, will be people buying during the squeeze, or at the peak, and selling for a loss post-squeeze. There's a lot of first time-investors that got involved for FOMO and are learning as they go and some will inevitably slip." "Robinhood, Interactive Brokers restrict trading in GameStop stock and options",6007,https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/28/robinhood-interactive-brokers-restrict-trading-in-gamestop-s.html,"Adding a second source on the topic: * [Robinhood clients say platform has removed GameStop and AMC, and is only allowing holders to sell](https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/robinhood-removes-gamestop-amc-reddit-wallstreetbets-fueled-stock-rally-gme-2021-1-1030015292) > Robinhood removed GameStop, AMC, BlackBerry, and Nokia from its trading platform on Thursday, leaving investors unable to buy the highly volatile stocks. > The discount brokerage informed clients they can close out positions in the affected stocks but cannot purchase additional shares, according to numerous screenshots shared on Twitter. The move came before markets opened on Thursday. [Click Here](https://www.sec.gov/oiea/Complaint.html) to file a complaint with the SEC. [Click Here](https://www.finra.org/investors/have-problem/file-complaint/complaint-center) to file a complaint wit with FINRA. [Click Here](https://robinhood.com/contact) to file a complaint with Robinhood directly. Robinhood Financial LLC 85 Willow Road Menlo Park, CA 94025 United States This morning I, and millions of other retail investors, were blocked from purchasing (entering new buy orders) on the Robinhood platform, without notice. This clear example of market manipulation has forced the stock down from over $500 in after-hours to less than $300 as of this writing. Meanwhile, hedge fund interests are NOT blocked from buying the shares being traded and the lower price obviously benefits them. We retail investors have followed all the rules and finally stood to gain a LITTLE bit from Wall St and they suddenly change the rules ""to protect"" us. I am requesting you use your subpoena power and regulatory authority to examine whether Robinhood colluded illegally with any other actors who may have held short positions on these stocks to reduce the number of buyers for $GME and therefore deflate the price. This is market manipulation. **GIVE ROBINHOOD APP A 1-STAR REVIEW RIGHT NOW!** *(Original by https://www.reddit.com/u/Bit-Training)* Can't have the poors getting this involved in the market now can we? [deleted] Citadel has a stake in both Melvin and RH, it doesn’t get any more obvious than this You know what’s probably cheaper than losing $13B to normies? Probably $500MM in legal fees and a lifetime ban from security trading. Either #Robinhood allows people to trade freely in the market or they will lose millions of users #ToTheMoon #GME #AMC #NAKD,” Wish they would of limited the trading of sub prime loans in 2008!!!! It seems yall have a misunderstanding of how this all works. First, in your Robinhood agreement there is a clause allowing them to restrict trades for basically any reason at all. Second, they are not market makers and dont have a seat on the NYSE. This means they send your trade to a market maker to fulfill. They do this because they make money off of order flow. Who do the orders go through? Two Sigma, Citadel, and Virtu, amongst others. Those market makers decide what order flow they will accept. They can tell any ""Broker"" (which is what Robin Hood is) that they will not accept any type of order they choose. Thats not technically manipulation. If you have a seat on the NYSE or you are a market maker, you can still buy or sell GME whenever you want. Complain all youd like, this is 100% legal, and Ive been telling people how dangerous this is for days and everyone downvotes me to the grave. I think its fucked and shady 100%. I want to stick it to the man. But you need to know how to play the game to win it, and too many of you are inexperienced traders to play it right. If you all wanted to start a WSB market maker with a seat on the NYSE you could pay the roughly $100,000 to get the seat and pay the respective compliance costs, then build the trading platform to do it. Its actually not even that hard to do. Edit: I 100% think this behavior is immoral and shitty, I am just trying to help people understand what is going on. Fuck these guys. Edit 2: Turns out they couldnt send orders through the intermediaries bc they were requiring excess capital to continue transacting. Robin hood drew all their credit lines down and lacked the liquidity to pony up dough to the intermediaries to transact. Sounds like Robin Hood isnt well funded enough and Citadel et all knew they could cut them off by forcing them to add excess capital. I kept one share of GME so that I could be included in the class action lawsuits. I'm sad to see this has now become reality. Hilarious that the first line of their (robin' hood) Twitter bio says “Democratizing finance for all”. It’s democratized until the little guys start to play the game. Everybody go review RH as 1 star in the app store. Also, at risk of blowing up like Melvin, I might just have to go ultra gay bear on the RH ipo. ""Due to extreme volatility with certain Stocks, we have decided to sell all shares held by private accounts to protect them from further losses"" - these fuckers tomorrow probably Not just RH, Freetrade has made $GME a “Plus” product so you need to upgrade to trade and Trading 212 are putting in blocks to make it as difficult as possible to trade. Dicks! Proof the game has been rigged all along... Okay, people don’t seem to understand the business model of Robinhood. But very critically they’re a *free* service. They make money by wholesaling order flow to internalizers like Citadel or Virtu. If they didn’t do that, they’d have to route to the public exchanges, like NASDAQ. Where instead of getting paid, they’d have to pay an exchange fee. People are pissed off at Robinhood, but what do you expect them to do? If the internalizers decide to stop paying for their order flow, should they be forced to keep providing a free service at a loss? If you wanted guaranteed access to the exchange, then you shouldn’t have used a free platform. [deleted] Rules for thee, not for me. This is financial censorship This is gross. It's not just GameStop either. BB, BBBY, AAL are off limits as well. It's open market manipulation. Robinhood is now the sheriff of Nottingham Serious question. What is the best investing app? This is the second time I have been really displeased with Robinhood. Should I pull my money out of Robinhood now? I feel like they’re going to be penalized and I just want my money to be safe. I’m only about a year or so in the stock market so I’m relatively new but just looking for some advice. What would motivate a trading platform to self-sabotage like this? Sure, it works temporarily but won’t the loss of trust this generates outweigh any profit they might be making from doing this? Watch afterhours and smile, E.M. is striking again :-) I'll hold. I funded my TD account and got back in GME! Fuck RH!! Class action lawsuit incoming Just complained to the SEC about Robinhood. 🤘🏼 I like the stock! Market manipulation at its finest. I hope they're fucking prepared for lawsuits over the suicides that are going to happen. Closed my account moved to E Trade Trash, trash trash. They must pay for this. Market manipulation. **For Canadians** **BC Securities Commission:** https://www.bcsc.bc.ca/about/contact-us **Alberta Securities Commission** https://www.albertasecurities.com/about-the-asc/contact-us **Financial and Consumer Affairs Authority of Saskatchewan** https://www.fcaa.gov.sk.ca/contact-us **Manitoba Securities Commission** https://mbsecurities.ca/complaints-guidance/file-a-complaint/securities-complaints.html **Ontario Securities Commission** https://www.osc.gov.on.ca/en/contactus_index.htm **Autorité des marchés financiers (Québec)** https://lautorite.qc.ca/en/general-public/assistance-and-complaints/assistance-and-complaints-loss **Nova Scotia Securities Commission** https://nssc.novascotia.ca/recognize-and-report-scam **Financial and Consumer Services Commission (NB)** https://fcnb.ca/en/online-services/submit-a-complaint **PEI Office of the Superintendent of Securities** https://www.princeedwardisland.ca/en/information/justice-and-public-safety/filing-complaint-securities **Office of the Superintendent of Securities, Service Newfoundland & Labrador** http://www.servicenl.gov.nl.ca/securities/index.html **NORTHWEST TERRITORIES Office of the Superintendent of Securities Department of Justice** https://www.justice.gov.nt.ca/en/divisions/legal-registries-division/securities-office/ **Nunavut Securities Office** http://nunavutlegalregistries.ca/sr_index_en.shtml **Office of the Yukon Superintendent of Securities** https://yukon.ca/en/doing-business/securities They also blocked buying for BB and AMC God forbid I try to make some rent money, gotta protect those corporate interests! BUY NOK and AMC They stop us ..😡 After blocking GameStop and AMC stocks, Robinhood app should change their name to Sheriff of Nottingham!!!😒😒 Why do people think the SEC is going to do anything? Politicians are funded by the lobbyists who literally work to keep these rules (that the wealthy most definitely influenced) in place. Unless people on a large scale give a fuck, nothing is going to change. I hate how pessimistic I am about this but let’s be honest - in 4 weeks from now no one is going to give a shit about any of this. People will lose their momentum because unlike the rich folks who have the time and money to keep everyone quiet, we have to work tirelessly to make ends meet. Most people are too stressed or too broke to even begin taking any real action to battle it out with these motherfuckers. We will all have no damn choice but to get back onto our little rat wheels and continue working ourselves to death while these rich motherfuckers play golf and worry about which one of their Rolex’s will be the right flex for whatever bullshit outing or “business” meeting they have planned. Sigh Bitches (((( how about revolut..is it good for buying and selling shares Trading has forever changed after today. The market elites have gone and kicked the hornet’s nest. Don’t they know not to fuck with the Internet? See you in court asshats. This cannot go unanswered. This was a blatant arm-bar on the little guy while Wall Street got to raid us. Write your representatives. Report Robinhood Financials, LLC to the SEC (pm me if you need a link) Review/rate these apps and platforms in Apple/Google app stores and elsewhere to reflect how you feel about this decision. This is big manipulation This is against the law **Sign the petition here: https://www.change.org/p/u-s-securities-and-exchange-commission-sec-retail-investors-demand-market-transparency-please-sec-amend-form-13f-requirements** Retail Investors demand more visibility into institutional trading and borrowing. Anyone investing over 1 billion dollars (i.e. hedge funds and other investment institutions) is required to disclose their holdings to promote transparency in our markets - it's called Form 13-F. **But did you know that they only need to disclose it 4 times a year? And did you know that they don't need to disclose all of their positions?** We the people are asking for a re-evaluation of transparency requirements for Institutional Investors. We have access to technology and data gives us new sophistication - and are beginning to understand there is a tremendous disparity in access between retail and institutional investors, and are concerned that this access is being used against us, in ways that we genuinely worry could be in flagrant violation of Securities Laws. We believe that with better access to institutional trading data, retail investors can better participate in the market when making buying and selling decisions. **According to Form 13F (https://www.sec.gov/files/form13f.pdf), Institutional Investors only need to disclose their positions 4 times a year. Why?** *Filing of Form 13F. A Manager must file a Form 13F report with the Commission within 45 days after the end of each calendar year and each of the first three calendar quarters of each calendar year. As required by Section 13(f)(5) of the Exchange Act, a Manager which is a bank, the deposits of which are insured in accordance with the Federal Deposit Insurance Act, must file with the appropriate regulatory agency for the bank a copy of every Form 13F report filed with the Commission pursuant to this subsection by or with respect to such bank. Filers who file Form 13F electronically can satisfy their obligation to file with other regulatory agencies by sending (a) a paper copy of the EDGAR filing (provided the Manager removes or blanks out the confidential access codes); (b) the filing in electronic format, if the regulatory agency with which the filing is being made has made provisions to receive filings in electronic format;* **In your FAQ (https://www.sec.gov/divisions/investment/13ffaq.htm), it is clear Institutional Investors are not required to disclose short positions. Why?** *Question 41 Q: What about short positions? A: You should not include short positions on Form 13F. You also should not subtract your short position(s) in a security from your long position(s) in that same security; report only the long position.* **Contact the SEC and let them know retail investors demand increased transparency (https://www.sec.gov/contact-information/sec-directory)** Occupy Wall Street part II Flood the App Store with 1⭐️reviews for RH People considering DLing this app should know they are MM shills iOS - https://apps.apple.com/us/app/robinhood-investing-for-all/id938003185 Android - https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.robinhood.android&hl=en&gl=US Dogecoin🚀🚀 PROUD OF EVERYONE HOLDING GME. WERE GOING TO MAKE HISTORY. ITS TIME THE 1% PAYS 🚀🚀🚀 LOVE YOU RETARDS ""Robinhood, Interactive Brokers illegally restricts trading in GameStop, other names involved in frenzy"" FTFY And now they’re going to have to pay huge. So that’s cool. 🤣🤣🤣 I was in a hurry when I texted this. I have 1 husband! I meant to say my husband uses Stash and another friend of ours uses Ameritrade. I am also new at this. So, is it legal for any of these stock companies to do this? It seems once Robinhood did it, several others fell in line. CNBC spewed the hedge fund propaganda. You can’t slip out of that CNBC. Close your robin hood accounts in support of freedom chickenshit They’ve got plenty of money for all of us, it would only cost 330 million dollars. Give each person in the US 1 million bucks and we will call it even. Someone let me know how to file a claim for the class action lawsuit that will be coming. So RH sucks. Who is good? TDAmeritrade sucks, just not as bad as RH Illegal jail It was not restricted, hedge fund guys could make trades and options. While were locked out, watching from the sidelines. If it were restricted, the market would have stood still. I am not onboard the GME rocket to the moon. I am, however, greatly enjoying the chaos it's causing and also royally pissed at the audacity of RH to limit trading. Is there an alternative that isn't as shitty? Where can I take my tiny portfolio in protest? When Wall Street does it’s fine but when the people make a little money it’s a problem Hi guys, do anyone know if it would be possible to simply turn around the strategy and flood the market with low calls on banks and hedge funds like BlackRock, JPM and Bank of America? I am imagining a horde of 1 million people flooding the asking for traders to sell them stocks of BlackRock at say 10$ a piece, could this be occur or will the ""I want to buy BLK, at 10$"" simply not show up to a trader, beyond the candlestick simply dipping down to 10$ and closing at ordinary value? I do apologize if this is an unwanted question to propose, but I am simply too curious about this to shut my mind up. Thats so unfair! Lawsuit for that ass Fuck these assholes. Damn the man. Revolt! Restrict buying***** people were able to sell #manipulation Can we do this with Ford?? Not fair!! Political stops the market 😡 Class action lawsuit Does anyone know a good attorney? I smell class action! Sounds like market manipulation. Fuck Wall Street fuck the brokers fuck cnbc We're pulling our million dollar account tomorrow. I cannot file as I do not have this account but if you do BUy Moved all my free capital out this morning from RH. Rest is leaving once settled and sold eventually Can confirm. I didn't think IBKR would do this. I just tried putting a GME buy order and got it rejected with this error: ""Transactions in this instrument are limited to closing-only trades."" Can someone with more knowledge than me explain how this could be perceived as anything other than manipulation? Removing the ability to buy shares, but still allowing selling, negatively affects the stock price thus harming share owners and benefitting the shorters. I just don’t see the legality in that. I heard some guest on CNBC say that they likely would not be doing this without permission from regulators. How is this possible? We need a private app. Wallstreetbets is dead and money wins when trading apps like robinhood and hedge funds decide they don’t like how the markets going. Collusion and price fixing. This class action lawsuit is going to go down in history. Since when is volatility in the market a valid reason to restrict buying? I didn’t. Think that was possible. Kind of figured volatility is the price you pay for being in the stock market. Nobody stopped trades when Americans lost money in 08z and nope stopped trades when I lost half my savings in my 401 when Covid hit. Why is this volatility treated any different? This is very shady from the guys above. This will go down in history. Damn So, what do I need to go buy? Total dummy here, just taking Finance 101 and trying to understand, I would assume most large institutional investors are negotiating their own call options that might have a different expiration than what a retail investor would get from their broker. Is this true or do we generally know that all options have an end-of-week or third-friday-of-the-month type of standard expiration? where do we see the shorts currently on GME?[https://twitter.com/Chris2pherChase/status/1354792737074241538](https://twitter.com/Chris2pherChase/status/1354792737074241538) Im new to trading here, just opened my Robbin hood account a month ago. I have put about 5k in my account which i have invested in different stocks. Now i was wondering if hypothetically the company goes under due to all this GME manipulation stuff. Would i lose all my money and shares ? Or how does that work and if i should be worried about moving my money out of robbin hood? It’s alright when they do it but it is not alright when we do. Got it. Should Goldman Sachs and Bank of America restrict their hedge fund customers from doing the same? This is Manipulation and fraud, citadel double the short position before the halt Can't allow market manipulation. Is this what happens when the average joe starts to get ahead of the suits on wall street? If you have the money you make the laws/rules? E*TRADE too Filing an sec complaint wtf [bought GME on IBKR just now ](https://imgur.com/gallery/oQl4nSB) And Trading212 in UK Hold the line! Buy the dip! Use fidelity or webull! Selling and moving. Not dealing with this Fixed stuff And etoro Robinhood is toast just prior to their IPO! How do you sell something without someone consent ITS NOT YOUR TO SELL.... I hope everyone sue!!!! Not just GameStop. + CashApp for doing the same Rigged game. Buy freedom buy DOGECOIN!!!! What genre of gaming would GameStop classify this trading game - rpg or simulation? Pls can someone talk about express should I hold ? This makes me so mad... People that tried to buy, but got their purchase cancelled by Robinhood: what are we doing and where do we go from here? The key word tomorrow is DOGECOIN!!! Arf arf. Buy buy buy. Wait. Hold up. You mean the system is rigged? Did they do this so MM (big institutions) could cover their losses at a lower price? Im hearing they are going to pump it back up tomorrow im going to see and join in :) Is there another broker who does fractional and doesn’t suck? I’ll move my cash of RH if that’s worth it. I just didn’t like cash app. I’m long on $Pitchforks How are they going to decide what stocks these subs have tried to (or are going to) inflate? How many mentions? I assume that they goal would be to get ahead of any real gains. This seems beyond sketchy. Fucking Cheaters! I’m all in on AAL. Only one of a few that survived their onslaught. It’s set for big gains tomorrow. Make em pay Wall St rigging the game against Main St - color me shocked.... I smell the biggest lawsuit in this century coming up. Geez but when their stock is off the roof it's all fine and dandy but when we make our money we can't buy!?! Recently, I planned to sign up with Interactive Brokers. Guess I won't be doing that now. All I know is I'm holding GME Crybabies loosing cried foul and changed the rules again rich white privilege again allowing the rules to be customized to them ..... let it go did anyone stop them from fucking the markets inn2008 till it was again the little man who paid # to big to fail , #karma Alpaca would never do this. Restricted buying in a free market? Fuck off cunts. Blatant market manipulation and hopefully that greasy cocksucker vlad gets sued to hell Adding another source here, listen to Anthony, CEO of Webull [explaining how Clearing Houses are](https://youtu.be/4RS4JIEVyXM%20l) another bottleneck in the system. To me, it seems, that the whole **stock market exchange system is built on outdated** technology and not ready for the 21st century. **When you want to enable the masses, you have to ensure that the market can handle high requests!** **ytube link:** [https://youtu.be/4RS4JIEVyXM](https://youtu.be/4RS4JIEVyXM) l Robinhood told clients in a blog post that it would close out some positions automatically if the client was at risk of not having the necessary collateral. The Menlo-Park, CA based said it plans to allow limited buys of these securities on Friday. After the announcement, shares of GameStop initially reversed their gains, sliding quickly into negative territory. The stock, which traded above $500 at one point in premarket trading, closed down 44% on Thursday. —- No. lies. You could not buy the stock on their platform, period. Regardless of the money in your account or your funding. It was restricted. If you made a purchase with your cash before opening bell, your order was cancelled. Buy Nok GameStop @ 360 up %87 Such a scam Anyone else hear XLY.to is in the works of a supply deal in the US? Wondering if it is worth throwimg some money at. Worst platform ever. Don’t use it. They will have all control of what you want to invest. They block you according to their interest So SAD. No Robinhood 🖕 #CAN WE SHORT OUT PROFIT FOR PRISONS NEXT. TPTB WILL LITERALLY PANIC AND MAKE HUGE MISTAKES For anyone who are super new to options and want to know what the greeks mean here is my first Youtube video explaining it using CFA level 2 knowledge. [GameStop Option Greeks Explained](https://youtu.be/2MRt8ehjV5o) BOLD move Robinhood, we now know you do Not live up to your name! <<<<<<<>>>>>> This company just announced 3 days ago that they are starting sub study for EBO5 COVID 19 Treatments for ICU patients. This could be a hidden gem <<>>> COVID 19 THERAPUTICS GOT APROVED FOR SUB STUDY 3 DAYS AGO FOR ICU PATIENTS Short summary of the company. Canadian. Reverse merge with Stellar in June 2019 Smart CEO successful business background Market cap $60 million Insiders own more than %50 of shares Low float ONLY 3.9 million NO DEBT $7 mil cash on hand ARDS/Covid antibody drug EB05 Health Canada and FDA approval Phase 2 EB05 Drug already manufactured 👈👈 Manufacturer (Light Chain Bio) located in Europe (Swiss ) Phase 2 trials in 3 different countries.👈👈 Canada, USA and Colombia via JSS Research Org. Phase 2 results and Fund news coming soon. Easy access to USA, South American European market They have other drugs in their pipelines. 👈👈 Still cheap, way undervalued. Even if you have higher average up to $19 STILL CHEAP !!! Meet the CEO conference on Nov 6. [edesabiotech.com/clinical-p](http://edesabiotech.com/clinical-p)... Holding it until TRIPLE digits. Good Luck To All How do you allow selling without buying? Clearly someone has the power to buy... I wonder who that is What do all those stocks have in common? What a random sampling. I wonder if there’s a specific entity that this somehow exclusively benefits? I wonder if that’s legal? Pure market manipulation. Terrible Got to love the “free market!” I read the hedge fund getting killed also owns Robinhood. Awesome system we have! [deleted] [deleted] Now my brokerage Merrill edge has banned it yeah let's do this, zero loss, sure gain for the society this is what redditors should do So glad I never started an account with those people. Alternatively, if you have been trying to manipulate a stock via a short squeeze, don't admit to the SEC that is what you are doing. Filing with the SEC is probably the best deal Because big money has its own clearing houses, you imbecile. Also, you’re not an investor. You’re a speculator. Don’t disrespect investors by including yourself in their ranks. Tell it like it is: you wanted quick gains and an overloaded clearing house decided to burst your bubble. Get out of this selfish stupor and think about how many true fools had been trading on margin without an understanding of the risk. Why isn’t Robinhood getting any credit for protecting people from their own stupidity? Sorry, but isn't this just a classic 'pump and dump' market abuse scheme? Buy GameStop shares, then write Reddit posts telling everyone else to buy GameStop shares, then sell out to profit. The price-to-book ratio got up to insane unsustainable levels this week, way overvalued, and when it crashes back down to earth it'll be the poorest, dumbest, least informed retail investors - those who got in last - who'll be stuck holding this crap, long after those driving the market manipulation have cashed out. I read something about retail investors putting their savings into GameStop shares and paying their rent on credit card - these people are going to get ruined. Isn't *that* what you should be filing a complaint about? A speculative bubble fuelled by market abuse and by better-informed amateur investors taking advantage of their uninformed peers. The Robinhood app is no longer available on the App Store... are they trying to stop new retail investors from joining?! Edit: my mistake - it’s not available in the UK - I thought it was. Buy bitcoin ROFL it's already down to 1 star One star STASH, one star robinhood! Jesus that FINRA site is trash you realize this isn't a free market, and you guys are getting scammed right? oh and if u think complaining to the SEC will do anything or that the justic department will do anything I've got BOAT loads of beach front real estate for sale in Arizona for ya'll ! YUCK YUCK YUCK u guys r getting shafted so hard and u have NO RECOURSE. NONE AT ALL! Last time the poors affected anything they banned day trading for the non rich. Not looking forward to the end of this They made the market accessible then millions of people came in to artificially inflate stock prices. We had the ability to trade, they would hold the shares and broker the deals. And then a large group of people decided to try to take advantage of the system and fucked it all up. The poors were involved until they abused the relationship and now they're getting cut off. The bad guys let people in the front door just for them to shit all over the floor. So now they're not doing it anymore. Great job reddit. [deleted] Yeah exactly. So you can only sell, and if everybody sells the price go to trash level, and crappy funds are happy again. What a shame! It's over the top manipulation. People literally can only trade uni-directionally. It's incomprehensible. This is WAY beyond saying things to influence behavior. This is draconian forced market behavior. This is insane and pretty fucking illegal right? To restrict buying then double down and borrow more to push the price down in order to make people who just bought bc of the memes to panic sell before the maturity date of most of the shorts tomorrow.....like Who do they expect us to sell to if there’s no buyers? It's a big club, and you ain't in it. That’s worse cause it causes panic selling, which allows short sellers to get off easier, right? I assume that they’re trying to block buy orders under the guise that Robinhood has a commitment to protect investors from volatility. It’s gonna come back to bite them once everyone gets on board to file with the SEC. The SEC is going to have a lot questions about why they are allowing this. If you’re winning against the house, the house makes you stop playing. They do not own either of those. One part of Citadel gave Melvin a big capital infusion and will be getting profits from them. Robinhood routes order flow through another part of Citadel, as do others. I’m not saying something shady isn’t going on, things tossed over Chinese walls or such, but they do not own either. What? Proof? Citadel and Point72 just injected 2.75 billion into Melvin to keep them from going under. https://www.wsj.com/articles/citadel-point72-to-invest-2-75-billion-into-melvin-capital-management-11611604340 Can you explain why other brokers also blocked meme stocks today? It wasn’t just RH. This is exactly the decision being made. Anyone complicit in the manipulation should be thrown in jail. How in the world is it Ok for RH to stop me from buying my favorite stocks while the prices are dropping???? Is there a decent alternative to Robinhood out there right now? God forbid someone did DD on Moody's AAA-rated securities Restrict ""professional investors"" , haha, good one. Don’t you find it a little odd that citadel clears for robinhood but also has a stake in the gme trade? Do you think there were any discussions behind the scenes that led to the buying halt? You seem to be missing the part where RH is a fiduciary, and they are legally obligated to conduct business without harming their retail clientele. While they have control of where the orderflow goes, they cannot execute (or not execute) at the peril of their retail clients. You seem to know what your talking about, so hopefully you can give me some insight into how deep this might go. If for example one of these hedge funds with a considerable short position were to go under, like exceeding their balance sheet, who is on the hook for those shorts? I know for you and I we can't even get into that game unless we're backed with enough liquidity to cover the losses, but in the event these rules were broken or manipulated, who's on the hook? The brokerage? Also is here anything else that might be at play here on another level, similar to bond insurance in 08 which nearly wiped everything out? I feel like it would be absolutely insane to have derivatives on short positions. Dude no one cares. Technically legal is not a good argument. It’s a shitty argument and the whole reason the big guys get to fuck around. Stop defending immoral, predatory behaviour in those terms. It’s legal but immoral. So change the laws. Make noise and don’t stop making noise. Does this also apply to the big 'traditional' brokerages? E.g. Schwab, Fidelity? Or do they have a seat on the NYSE? Would they be able to restrict trading a specific security like this? Genuine question. For your edit 2, if the liquidity was the problem, why would it only affect specific stocks and not their whole platform? High volume? Shady? Come on. If RH or IB or whoever prevents clients from buying Gamestop they are basically preventing those clients from losing 95 percent of their investment. It's basically the Tulip salesman saying, ""No, quit buying these bulbs for $300 each. They aren't worth that much. Quit being such fucking idiots."" This might be a stupid question. I'm a software developer and small business owner, so I don't have the understanding you seem to on how all this goes down, and I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic when you said ""Its actually not even that hard to do"". But given that you would probably need closer to $1million in initial funding (thinking lawyer fees, development costs, etc) do you think it would actually be possible to create a non-evil trading platform? Possibly sourced from regular people who would then have a stake in the company itself? Downvoted because you’re supposed to hold, not sell. Thank you for doing your part! There would be a record if you owning it during this time period. So you’re already in the class. But you sold? For shame. Looks like they being blocked? No, they aren’t dicks. They’re criminals. And they need to be jailed and have their illicit profits stripped. Tradgin212 is so unstable these days you couldbarely trade even without regulations lol. Yesterday wasn't even able to look at my portfolio for almost the entire trading day [deleted] >People are pissed off at Robinhood, but what do you expect them to do? If the internalizers decide to stop paying for their order flow, should they be forced to keep providing a free service at a loss? If you wanted guaranteed access to the exchange, then you shouldn’t have used a free platform. I absolutely expect them to continue providing service to their users regardless of their own liability on the backend. That is their problem, not mine. I pay for a Gold subscription on their platform. I have money invested with them that is being negatively affected by their actions. I should be okay with them telling me where I can and can’t spend my own money? They are making money off me using their platform and I expect to be able to use it the way it’s intended without them picking and choosing which securities are “safe.” They’re taking away our choice to limit their own liability and I think that’s bullshit. If the product/service is free, then you are the product. The only sane voice in here. So your defense of Robin Hood is to say that they are manipulating the stock market alongside their investors. That’s a real great defense. Could you walk us through what series of events is kicked off when someone “buys” a stock of GME on robinhood? As compared to when using a paid platform for trading. ...and what happens when people leave Robinhood en masse because it's unreliable? Those internalizers aren't going to pay for order flow that doesn't exist. The entire business model has been exposed. >People are pissed off at Robinhood, but what do you expect them to do? If the internalizers decide to stop paying for their order flow, should they be forced to keep providing a free service at a loss? Yes. That’s the business model they chose. Why should they not be held liable for it? Did they not account for this risk? I absolutely expect them to continue providing service to their users regardless of their own liability on the backend. That is their problem, not mine. I pay for a Gold subscription on their platform. I have money invested with them that is being negatively affected by their actions. I should be okay with them telling me where I can and can’t spend my own money? They are making money off me using their platform and I expect to be able to use it the way it’s intended without them picking and choosing which securities are “safe.” They’re taking away our choice to limit their own liability and I think that’s bullshit. Why should anyone feel sorry for a business with a poor business model? Oh I did, I left a 1-star review this morning and at the end said it should have been named King John Artificially inflating the price of those stocks wasn't? They will almost certainly not face any actual repercussions for their actions beyond a slap on the wrist. That said, you should still pull from Robinhood and switch to a different platform. Me too! Td is working fine You showed them by not giving them your money for the thing you weren't paying for. Already filed, the NY district got overloaded cuz everyone wanted to see it There won’t be a short squeeze on those companies though. It’s just a pump and dump. GME is the only way to actually name a price. Balls deep eh? For Robinhood traders stuck diamond handing with more capital or those on the sidelines: https://www.reddit.com/r/ChurchofWSB/comments/l72gyo/to_our_robinhood_brethern_being_persecuted_for/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf WE LIKE THE STONK! See you on the moon! 1,000,000,000,000% They were supposed to be the closest to an institutional account for the retail investor. I kind of understand to restrict trading if they are forced through some government action and to affect everyone on a level playing field. But these are action on their own accord. I never intended to get into any of these short squeezes, but definitely this makes me think of switching brokers. The problem is that there is no one else like Interactive Brokers to offer trading on so many markets. eTrade Fidelity Where? Robinhood isn’t letting me log in (by the time I get the verification code it times out). Can’t get it on cash app and I don’t know who to trust now. [deleted] Robinhood says they’re protecting “professional investors “. What about protecting their clients? This allows the “professional investors “ to do whatever they want with the stock, leaving individuals at their mercy. I would tell Robinhood to go F!&$@ themselves. Someone reported that TD Ameritrade did also, but I found that to be incorrect. Imagine calling their trading platform robinhood and then stopping poor people from profitting to protect rich people. Disgusting. Citadel Well, there is a class action lawsuit against them so If you look at some of the insane limit purchases, we can assume that Interactive Brokers can no longer function in its purpose as a market maker because there is no available volume. This also means those with puts will not be able to cover either so they're waiting for enough people to sell for institutional investors to hedge their puts. Nobody is buying a stock that's artificially inflated to hundreds of times its value. This started as market manipulation, and it's ending the same way. I don't know why anyone is surprised. ""WHERE'S MY FREE MONEY THAT I GOT FROM ARTIFICIALLY INFLATING A STOCK PRICE?!"" boo hoo. Market makers were buying shares to cover the ones they took responsibility for. Firms tying up loose ends on the way to the stock price reflecting its actual value I don't know the details but it is entirely possible the robin hood are trying to protect their clients. The share price will eventually come down, and someone is going to left holding shares when it does. Stopping amateur traders taking risks like this is the call I would expect them to make The intent is to cause panic selling. All the while the hedge funds go short even more and make a killing at the expense of the retail investors. Basically Robinhood is selling out their clients to the hedge funds. They want everyone who owns to sell so the price of stock goes down. People using other brokers are still buying. But the actions taken by RH really reduce the amount of buying pressure vs selling pressure in the overall market, which led to today's drastic drop in price. They are all heavily shorted by the hedge funds that are calling the shots at Robinhood. They all had unusual volatility in the past few trading days unrelated to news about the company itself. They were all inflated significantly above their value This is the last straw. Been thinking about moving brokerages since they glitched on leap year (I buy-and-hold and wasn't effected, but still shows incompetency), but been too lazy to do it and I'm now gonna look for someone else. Oooh, that’ll help 🙄 File an SEC complaint at least. Google deleted all of them, better check and resubmit >My husband uses stash and another uses Ameritrade. It might be unrelated to illegality of what Robinhood is doing, but I'm pretty sure having two husbands is illegal. Not fidelity Multiple husbands? Ally Invest accounts are also 'unavailable'. Uh huh sure, I dont even own GME but now I cant even look at anything. SEC: “*I will make it legal*” Idk if it was on cash app before but it’s definitely not now (amc is) Even Trade Republic in Berlin Germany is doing the same. Merril edge started cancelling open orders at 1030am ish SEC isn’t on your side, bud. Gonna have to weather the storm and jump on a class action once this shit is over. More context does this refer to the 25k day trade limit? What kind of insanity is this? Should we be glad the rich let us breathe the same air they do? Or... it’s just free trading happening and the ultra rich are upset they can’t manipulate the markets as they usually do. But great fiction writing though. Die mad. The people are just doing what the rich have always done. Over leveraged short positions MUST be squeezed to keep the market in check. The people are doing what regulators should have done decades ago *Fuck* you Sir, this is supposed to be free market, you can't restrict people to do their business ... Forcing 100% margin requirements is reasonable, disabling the stock is insane and blatant market manipulation. Yeah these brokers let regular people sell naked shorts But now they care about your risk management Imagine simping for rich people who use your money to bail themselves out and then cut you out of the free market as soon as you beat them at their own game > They could increase margin of course but this is much safer. Why? I am not buying with margin, I want to buy the stock itself and I cant These trading platforms allow people to fuck around with options, derivatives, and other high-risk trades all day long, but when people start buying a stock, it becomes a problem? It's so fucking obvious what's happening here. Brokerages are literally shutting down buying on their platforms to save hedge funds that shorted an undervalued stock with 140% of available shares. This is going to backfire spectacularly they are just a mediator between buyers and sellers... another thing is if the client wants to buy on margin. The price of the lawsuits they’ll have to deal with is going to be less than the billions they’ll lose getting their shorts squeezed The hedge funds that need shares to cover their short posistions.. RH’s IPO prospects are done for imo.. after this top 10 anime betrayal WSB will literally short it to the ground out of pure spite > things tossed over Chinese walls More like Japanese walls, paper thin and you can hear every word , everywhere But they won’t be. Are you part of the aristocracy? If not, then it's ok. Commoners aren't allowed to play the game and win. E*TRADE Webull is a popular one. I believe they haven't halted trades involving gamestop, Blackberry, AMC. Fidelity Buy bitcoin [deleted] Webull or just use Etrade types I love this comment, marry me Yes, and there is a high degree of scrutiny right now. We will see as it plays out. They are not a fiduciary. They disclose that in their terms and conditions. They are notably also arguing against Massachussets in court that they are not a fiduciary. They make ""best efforts"" in finding the best order flow but are not held to a fiduciary standard like an investment advisor would be for execution. They are a broker dealer, not an investment advisor. Obama tried passing some reform but it was ultimately delayed and never implemented, and the DOL ruling only impacts Retirement accounts and ""recommendations"" for rollovers and sales. Relevant: F. Purchases. All orders for the purchase of securities given for My Account will be authorized by Me and executed in reliance on My promise that an actual purchase is intended. It is My obligation to pay for purchases immediately or on Robinhood's demand. I understand Robinhood may at any time, in its sole discretion and without prior notice to Me, prohibit or restrict My ability to trade securities. I further agree not to allow any person to trade for My Account unless a trading authorization for that person has been received and approved by Robinhood. Robinhood reserve the right to require full payment in cleared funds prior to the acceptance of any order. In the event that I fail to provide sufficient funds, Robinhood may, at its option and without notice to Me, i) charge a reasonable rate of interest, ii) liquidate the Property subject of the buy order, or iii) sell other Property owned by Me and held in any of My Accounts. Robinhood may also charge any consequential Loss to My Account. For purposes of this Agreement, ""Property"" shall mean all monies, contracts, investments and options, whether for present or future delivery, and all related distributions, proceeds, products and accessions. 13. Market Volatility; Market Orders; Limit Orders; and Queued Orders. I understand that, whether I place a market or limit order, I will receive the price at which My order is executed in the marketplace, subject to any clarification stated below. Particularly during periods of high volume, illiquidity, fast movement or volatility in the marketplace, the execution price received may differ from the quote provided on entry of an order, and I may receive partial executions of an order at different prices. I understand that Robinhood Financial is not liable for any price fluctuations. I also understand that price quotes generally are for only a small number of shares as specified by the marketplace, and larger orders are relatively more likely to receive executions at prices that vary from the quotes or in multiple lots at different prices. I understand that Robinhood Financial does not currently support sending traditional market buy orders and that Robinhood Financial collars all market buy orders (other than dollar-based buy orders executed during market hours) by using limit orders priced up to 5% above the last trade price. This is not the case for market sell orders. I further understand that when I send a market buy order through Robinhood Financial's trading system, the trading system generates a limit order up to 5% above the last trade price, and then Robinhood Financial sends the order to an executing broker. I understand that Robinhood Financial's implementation of market buy orders may vary depending on prices of instruments, market conditions, and other factors. 16. Restrictions on Trading. I understand that Robinhood may, in its discretion, prohibit or restrict the trading of securities, or the substitution of securities, in any of My Accounts. I understand that Robinhood may execute all orders by Me on any exchange or market, unless I specifically instruct Robinhood to the contrary. In the event of a breach or default by Me under this Agreement, Robinhood shall have all rights and remedies available to a secured creditor under all applicable laws and in addition to the rights and remedies provided herein. I understand that Robinhood may at any time, at its sole discretion and without prior notice to Me: (i) prohibit or restrict My access to the use of the App or the Website or related services and My ability to trade, (ii) refuse to accept any of My transactions, (iii) refuse to execute any of My transactions, or (iv) terminate My Account. The closing of My Account will not affect the rights or obligations of either party incurred prior to the date My Account is closed. 23. Equity Orders and Payment For Order Flow. SEC rules require all registered broker-dealers to disclose their policies regarding any ""payment for order flow"" arrangement in connection with the routing of customer orders. ""Payment for order flow"" includes, among other things, any monetary payment, service, property, or other benefit that results in remuneration, compensation, or consideration to a broker-dealer from any broker-dealer in return for directing orders. I understand that Robinhood transmits customer orders for execution to various exchanges or market centers based on a number of factors. These include: size of order, trading characteristics of the security, favorable execution prices (including the opportunity for price improvement), access to reliable market data, availability of efficient automated transaction processing and reduced execution costs through price concessions from the market centers. I further understand that certain of the exchanges or market centers may execute orders at prices superior to the publicly quoted market in accordance with their rules or practices and that while a customer may specify that an order be directed to a particular market center for execution, the order-routing policies, taking into consideration all of the factors listed above, are designed to result in favorable transaction processing for customers. The nature and source of any payments or credits received by Robinhood in connection with any specific transactions will be furnished upon written request. Just posted this elsewhere but this should be helpful: So the shares are typically being lent by either a fund or a market maker. Blackrock, State Street, and Vanguard lend their shares to shorts which is how their fees are so low. They literally dont care bc there is almost no risk to them. Here is a really good explanation of how fund companies and market makers do this: [Here](http://www.blackrock.com/us/individual/literature/brochure/us-retail-securities-lending-brochure.pdf) The shorters are putting up huge collateral and indemnity bonds to be able to short the shares. The market maker or fund still can call the shares back or ask for additional collateral so there is almost no risk to them. So the market maker or fund does not really have risk - they technically always have the shares, they are just lending them and collecting fees. The shorter itself will have to cover eventually, and the squeeze cant go on forever. The shorter could go under and technically have infinite losses if a stock goes up forever, but in practice, stocks dont go up forever without an opportunity for them to cover. They have liquidity requirements, indemnity bonds, and due dilligence that must be done to ensure they are able to cover. Technically itd be possible, but it is very unlikely. Ironically free trading has caused most brokerage firms to submit order flow to market makers for fees, which has exacerbated the current issue. Im not defending anyone, Ive repeatedly said what they are doing is shitty and I agree it is immoral, I am explaining what they are doing and the legal framework. Why are you so mad at me? What did I do to you? Just explaining a concept isnt defending anyone. You're more concerned with crying about fairness and regurgitating hysterical ""we're getting screwed over by the big guys!"" rhetoric than actually using your brain to examine the facts of the situation. Give it a rest dude because you really sound like a moron. They can curtail some types of trading based on unsafe market characteristics but generally wont. They mostly have seats and wont be blackmailed like RH bc they arent beholden to middlemen and dark pools. They kept me out of oil futures when they went negative last year I’m still pissed but it may have been in my best interest Yes the same margin requirements apply to all parties, but the big brokers are better capitalized and able to actually make those payments. Is the free discount brokers who don't have the capital. ""You get what you pay for."" Because of how stocks are settled. When a stock is sold there is a period of two days where the firms who traded shared verify price behind the scenes, called T+2. You may see the trade and funds immediately but behind the scenes they are working all that out, and sometimes may need to make adjustments. Add to this that an ACH may take 2-3 days as well, and when you add money and they give you credit right away, they dont actually have the money yet. So if a lot of people are buying and selling, most Brokers have a large pile of cash and also large credit lines to help facilitate all of this movement. Robinhood was so hamstrung yesterday they used all their cash and pulled all their credit lines. Now consider the market maker or intermediary that RH is getting the shares from. It is like a security deposit for an apartment. They might think the guy with 800 credit score isnt a risk so his deposit is lower, but the guy with a 500 credit score might need first and last months rent plus a deposit. They asked RH and others to pony up more cash to play with the big boys in GME and other meme stocks bc they were more volatile and RH (and their investors) may not have the cash physically on hand. For instance. Say the ACH gets reversed back to the bank and the trade has to get reversed - where does that share go when all the shorts are covering? That represents a risk. Say that RH accepts your order at 400 but its a delayed quote and the price is now 750, can their customers pay extra? The intermediaries made the decision that it was going to require more cash for RH and others to trade, cash RH didnt have. Lol I think they dont give a flying fuck about preventing losses on behalf of their customers. I'm guessing that IB has too many institutional connections. They probably got some calls from big partners/clients asking to help stop this madness. Nobody’s telling you what you can do with your money. You’re perfectly free to move it to another broker who will execute the trades you want. All RH is saying is they can’t facilitate the execution for you. This is clearly spelled out in their TOS, which I’m assuming you read before moving your investment accounts to the platform. It’d be like me requesting an Uber to a remote location, Uber telling me they don’t provide service at that location, then me getting outraged that Ubers telling me “where I can and cannot go” Or in this case the lamb being lead to the slaughter It’s still probably illegal to only halt ONE SIDE of trading. You can sell, but to whom? Maybe robinhood isn’t to blame, but someone along the transaction chain decided this for one side of one sale. Check the ""new"" section in WSB, it's absolutely insane atm Market manipulation is when my stocks lose money. The more money I lose, the manipulated the market is. And if I lose, all my money it’s naked short selling. When you pay to have an order executed they are incentivized to execute your order. When you don't pay they are making money somewhere else, so there isn't a 1 to 1 relationship between what you want and what they want. > Why should they not be held liable for it? The will be, I suspect the business model is dead as day traders won't trust them. > Did they not account for this risk? Of course not it is RH, they didn't account for shit. They are having to rely upon their lines of credit to establish enough working capital to complete the trades they have allowed, they cannot afford to also be paying fees on those trades with no revenue to offset it. If you force them to execute these trades and pay the fees you run the risk of having RH fail entirely and fall into bankruptcy. That is a million times worse than not being able to buy shares in your account. ----------- IB is a legit brokerage, they charge fees, they do it right, and they are worried about this situation. They aren't confident that RH will be around next Monday, and they want to reduce their counterparty risk, which is why they are restricting buys. That is how bad this is. If by ""artificially inflating the price of those stocks"" you mean ""going on TV every day to tell people what stocks they should buy/sell so my hedge fund can take advantage of the public's reaction"" then yeah, sure, artificially manipulating stock prices is gross. Your blatant whataboutism aside, there is a huge difference between people talking in a public forum about their opinion of a stock/fucking over a hedge fund and a broker not allowing people to spend their own money. What's even worse than that is the fact that Robinhood uses Citadel Securities as their primary market maker. Citadel Capital backed Melvin when they were getting clobbered by GME, and took a stake in the fund. All the sudden, when Citadel had a vested interest in GME coming back down to earth, Robinhood comes to the rescue. There's not suppose to be that level of communication between Citadel Capital and Citadel Securities, but if you think they didn't have something to do with this, I've got a great bridge to sell you in Brooklyn. I agree with this sentiment, and seeing it everywhere. ​ But where? TD limited too, right? In the internet world, money isn't money. Clicks and users are money. You think? I have 3 shares of GME and 22 total of amc and nokia Eh. Decided to join. Just got AMC, NOK, and BB. Why not? Time to stick it to the rich guys who stomp on the little ones trying to make investments I have some other investments, this isn’t it..but I threw a grand in today for this specifically You articulate my feelings very well: I never intended to participate in this (my order was a limit order with an absurdly high price, which I intended to cancel), but I'm very disgusted to see that IBKR is taking away my ability to do so, had I chosen to do so. Apparently it paused buying DOGE. It’s apparently the next GME. Fascists asshats And leave Robinhood a one star review. They are market manipulators who commited FELONIES. Seriously HOLD. DO NOT SELL. Make them pay Good lord, this comment should be at the TOP. Does this apply for AMC as well or just GME? Genuine question: Why would they HAVE to buy? I get the whole shorting process but given the scale of the losses why wouldn’t they just not buy the sticks, bail out, suck up any lost deposits and (let’s face it tiny) fines? Strikes me the most anyone could do about it is to sue them for their losses which would be the value of the stock they were expecting back. BUT - and this is the key part - the value of that stock the instant they bail goes to basically zero. So the most they could be sued for is basically zero. > because tomorrow they need to pay out Incorrect Robinhood traders aren't clients, we're products. Me: I’m getting killed on xyz stock, I’ve lost everything Robinhood: Well that’s just the market and the risk you take. Me: I’m doing amazing on GME!! Another 100 shares please! Robinhood: no! We won’t let you buy it to protect you. Hedge funds your fine to trade tho since you know what your doing. Interactive brokers did that too and that fucked most European discount brokers, because they tend to use IB platform to close trades Congress needs to hold hearings on Citadel and make public they actions Citadel took to kill GameStop It's like The Patriot Act. This has more to do with stopping unsophisticated retail investors from losing money Citadel is the enemy Would probably end up in a just few million fine for them. The financial system is broken. They will if it continues to inflate. This is historical because now we know that the company made for individual investments is complying with big business, not it’s customers. You are getting downvotess from the hive mind but I agree. This story has been wild and great fun but it doesn't have a happy ending. What do you think happens when you sell stock, say a GME stock unit on IBKR or RH? Oh, yeah, that's right: it goes to a buyer. That is not a real argument. Individual investors can make their own choices. This kind of market interference is unacceptable. Robinhoods one job is to facilitate the trades we want to make.Period. Oh yes, I am so very sure that is their #1 worry - definitely not from protecting Citadel at all - if they’re so into protecting people from financial ruin why didn’t they stop their own companies from short selling a stock beyond 100%? Oh that’s right! Because they were the ones that were going to make money so of course that’s completely ok. And they say we’re the irresponsible ones? Ok. Screw you I don’t need protection Protecting me to the tune of a 30% loss in one day. Thanks Robinhood! Even if they were going to stop traders from buying, they need to do it with sufficient warning so their users have time to move to another platform. Do you think i could talk them into freezing amazon until its down to a reasonable level so I could buy in? Maybe I should buy some shorts on it before they freeze it. I’m going to be rich Couldn’t you say that about huge portions of the market? Isn’t that a very subjective statement? Thats subjective to the person. If someone wants to buy GME for 10,000 a share, they should be able to. Thats their right. It doesn't mean someone else has to buy it from them if they think its not worth 10,000 a share, but you should still have that right. So where do we move? What is a good alternative? Want to move but don’t know who to trust. Problem is, it is every brokerage doing this. Edit: sorry, clarification, MOST every broker that I know has some restrictions. I can still buy and sell GME common stock without margin on TD, but not options. [deleted] They’re using INfidelity Isn’t it quasi legal in Utah? Looks like we're opening Fidelity accounts boys Yes I’m not mad, I’m happy I didn’t buy in to this sham. I’m sad for people that got pulled in though Bingo. It was a calculated move and those chose to deal with the PR fallout instead of the ballooning -P&L I thought they were already owned by PE. I never thought they could work as a public company. Their business model is fundamentally exploitative. No stonks only go up But fuck Robin Hood But they will go broke trying to cover all the options contracts they sold expiring tomorrow. Super slow for funds to hit IMO but so far I'm happy with it They have as well Thye have just look at the reviews on android. too early for this sub :) There's a ton of competition in this space. What monopoly are you talking about? Then I seem to be an idiot. I thought RH Securities being registered with FINRA came with stipulations about duties to their trading clients. Thanks for the education I'm less concerned with their ToS and more interested in the actual FINRA obligations. They can put whatever they want in the ToS. You literally are defending it. Simply saying ‘I’m not defending it’ doesn’t make that not the case. You literally said ‘complain all you want’ and wrote a legal defence of their action. Really well reasoned argument man, thanks for your well thought out contribution. Those required you to take physical delivery right? I can see how it's annoying, but I also see Fidelity's reasoning. If you bought and then weren't able to sell or take delivery, fidelity might also be on the hook for some of the penalties if they can't collect from you. That makes sense. But is that implying that the volume/total worth of recently settled trades on these specific companies dwarf all the others on RH? It doesn't necessarily make sense to me why the collateral or credit is separate by stock symbol. Thats still market manipulation. You didn't hear anyone complaining about the Kodak pump and dump Nah, it’d be like Uber driving you half way to the destination and stopping, and you say “Hey, I’d like to go a little further please we haven’t reached the destination yet” and they say “sorry, this area is really risky area right now so we decided we’re not going out that far. You’re welcome to get out and walk though!” Why on earth are you defending this shit? Do you have a vested interest? So, just to follow up: Turns out Robinhood et al. actually were struggling to meet demands for additional margins by major clearing houses who are (rightly) concerned about the extreme volatility in these stocks. They raised 1 bn USD over night and drew on credit lines to the tune of several hundred million USD. The optics remain bad, no doubt, but the reason for the (temporary) restrictions seems justifiable (though I am no lawyer, obviously). They played a stupid game to artificially inflate stock prices, then act all crazy when they don't get to abuse the market for their own gain. When the brokerage firms were making the market accessible to anyone with a little cash. They were let in, they fucked everything up, and now they're whining about it. This whole thing is the definition of Hubris. Or market manipulation is using your power as a stockbroker to prevent the purchase of shares of the stock that you are trying to short. Do you have a source for this or anything? Only asking because I think people are entirely missing how these firms work and have blinders on that there’s been illegal back door deals. They may be right, but I think this deserves more evaluation from both sides. Robinhood decided not to do the trades, I doubt they were upset when people didn't do what they stopped them from doing. I think the people who put money into the stock that's 150x its yearly low at its all time high are going to find out that money is actually money. There is like 5% short interest in NOK, 60% AMC, 120% GME. If you actually want to see a squeeze GME is it. They don't even come up on RH when I search for them. [deleted] Lmfaoooo yeah Robin Hood is the market manipulator not the hordes of amateur memevestors coordinating to drive the GameStop stock price insanely high above where it should be. Make them pay indeed. Amc was also over shorted but to a lesser extent That’s not how this works. Shares belong to individual owners. When people want to short something, they borrow the shares they want to short from a broker; these shares are either owned by the broker themselves or come from margin accounts that brokers are entitled to lend stock from. Think of each individual stock like a physical item. At the end of the day, the physical stock needs to be returned to its owner. The short seller has sold the stock to someone else. So somehow the short seller (or broker, if the short seller defaults) needs to figure out how to return the actual shares. This is the only way to close out a short position. It’s not something that can simply be cash settled. This is the issue with the situation. Short sellers borrowed and sold so much of GameStop stock that the only realistic way for them to exit their positions was to hope that GameStop actually went bankrupt. Go on... At worst a small fine, then it's business as usual. The rich suffer no consequences. It's a very real argument. I'm from the UK so I don't know USA rules in detail, but I am confident that protecting retail investors from risks they don't understand is very much part of the SEC's remit. You may know exactly what you're doing but at this stage there a people all over Reddit asking ""what's a share?"". They shouldn't be anywhere near this. Not irresponsible as much as having a different attitude towards risk and loss. And if you think citadel have influence over robin hood, how do you explain that almost all other brokerages have done exactly the same thing? It's not a conspiracy, however much you want it to be. Screw me? It isn't my idea! Go get mad at the sec if you don't like it. How did you make a loss? You could still sell. If you could speak to them about Tesla too. I missed out when it was cheap and I’m a bit salty over it. Do you have billions of assets under management? I just sold my holdings and am gonna start looking. Prolly one of those where it's pick the least bad, but I'm just done with RH TastyWorks is only allowing closing orders, so steer clear of them TDA is all peachy except that you cannot sell options atm. WeBull - no issues Fidelity - no issues other than excessive circuit breaking on options [deleted] JPMorgan too? I was able to buy GME at $125 and AMC at $9 with Vanguard, no issues there. Yup CashApp is too. You wish what? You should file an sec complaint. I did. Thousands of others did too I’m sure. Nice pun, however, it's not infidelity if you're married to both. It's a $750 fine. Best fuckin brokerage in the world. Been with them for 20yrs and counting Word time to do some reading. Entirely unsurprising The entire market or GameStop? They couldn’t exist as a public company because then all of the shadiness would officially come to light. Yeah no kidding.. they downvoted me for mentioning the best performing asset!? People are stupid . Also good luck my friend. they have the ability, today, to block millions of trades of young retail traders. What happens tomorrow doesn't matter. They only need to disrupt stock buying in these stocks long enough for whales to tank the stock prices so the shorts can get out and help institutions and hedge funds avoid losing money Don’t sweat it - the regs are crazy complicated FINRA is concerned with proper disclosure in this case, not necessarily duty to clients as long as it was all by the book. The SEC is a different story, but thats generally more for Investment Advisors, custodians, Market makers, rather than BDs. Even though there is a class action, most BD firms vs customer cases are bound by arbitration not actual court, and those cases are generally private and settled unless FINRA makes an example and publicizes it. I didnt write a legal defense I explained the law. Are you this emotional in every instance or are you losing money in this? People on reddit are acting like this is unexpected. It isnt. It was expected when Citadel put billions in Melvin since 40% or more of Robinhoods order flow payments come from Citadel. I have no axe to grind. Reddit is about someone with an understanding of a situation providing information to someone who may not know about that information. Why are you so mad at me for describing the laws? Why not be mad at Citadel or Robinhood for their shady business practices? I think you just want to vent to someone, so go ahead bro. Yes and agreed! Understandable from their perspective Just sucks when it happens I forget what book I was reading, might have been Big Short or maybe it was something else. Anyways a young and inexperienced trader was doing a lot of futures, and they were making a lot of money. Turned like $10k into a million or two. But then on some trades they decided it was better to just 'hold' and not roll over a futures trade. That was when they learned about delivery. They quickly had to rent out a warehouse and hire a bunch of people to take delivery of IIRC a bunch of oil. They had no idea that was going to happened and scrambled to make it happen. It was a very entertaining read. Its more the characteristics of those stocks. Heavy short interest, lack of float trading openly, volume way over normal, price movements of 10-50% per day, etc. Nuance here. IB and RH are providing you a platform service that they choose the rules over. If you had access to a market maker you could still enter orders. And some brokers are still accepting them. IB and RH are platforms for you to trade, and they use their scale to get access to market makers to place trades. Edit: why people downvote facts bro? I hate that the institutional players can do this, I am just explaining how it works. But in this analogy you aren't paying them anything. You also aren't asking uber but asking your mate who drives an uber. No one here saying it good situation but RH don't technically buy the shares from what I understand so if they get cut off at the source surely that's the end of it. Unless someone can tell me how they could still provide the service. This isn’t accurate at all. It’s not like Robin Hood did half of an assigned job, and they are well within their rights to restrict trade. Again, all this makes sense if they suspend both sides of the trade. Allowing people to sell stock, to essentially no one, is bullshit, and there is plenty of reason to suspect someone along the path of meeting orders didn’t want to do the job, and only closed half the trade. Want to end margin, sure. Want to end buying options with execution risk? Sure. Stoping ONLY buying equity, with cash, is insane. I’m so sorry, maybe I missed something, why did this happen in the first place? Oh yea! The short sellers were ‘abusing the market for their own gain’ by short selling a stock not 10%, not 60%, but 138%! And now they’re the ones acting ‘all crazy’ and using their connections to shut out retail investors, gosh, I had almost forgot! /s The shorts getting caught with their pants down is the definition of hubris. It’s so obvious they refused to believe that a bunch of internet retards could blow up their bets and instead of closing them out they doubled down. A source for what? RH tapping credit lines is reported on bloomberg. IB chairman have an interview on CNBC where he very explicitly raised concerns about market stability and other brokers/clearinghouses. Yeah, but they can only lose what they put in, and they've figured out that voting with your wallet isn't done by changing which company you buy your clothes or pet food from. You vote with your wallet in the market, and these people have figured out how to vote and the hardcore ones do not care if they lose everything. They got fucked in 2008 by wall st making its own rules, and they see how to play the game now to cause maximum damage. This isn't exactly speculation anymore like the tech bubble was. Its a financial rebellion. Interesting I may sell off the nok and BB to buy another GME if it drops again. By Friday things should change That is because Robin Hood is now blocking all investments because they’re backing the hedge funds I came here to ask if a class action suit on behalf of RH traders would be a possibility. RH and Citadel are cheating! lol what makes you think they have the power to delete reviews? Neither Google nor Apple allow that You have both understood what happened and massively misunderstood why it happened. You haven’t done your DD have you? ~~More specifically asking if my tendies will be fully cooked tomorrow or if I should take em out the fryer some time next week?~~ Are the AMC shorts due to be covered tomorrow or should I continue to hold? I get that that’s the theory (thanks for the great explanation all the same) but there is always in ANY contract a ‘what if they just don’t do what they agreed to’ situation. That’s likely the one coming into play here because all the institutional players gain if it does. What if the shorters/brokers simply don’t (or can’t) buy shares to return? Play that scenario out. Are the owners going to make a fuss about worthless shares coming back? Nope - at least not so much that a small settlement won’t make them whole. Brokers - they want their large customers to stay in business so they’re not going to push it. That just leaves regulators and they only want to protect The System. So my prediction is the establishment will come to a cosy agreement and teach the people who thought they were oh so smart a painful lesson. There is no mandated payout tomorrow. There are options that could expire, but those are known and predetermined (you have a max gain/max loss). There are no expirations on shorts (unless written into a contract somewhere, that we wouldnt have access to), they just have to pay interest on them. There might be a gamma squeeze with options expiring, but the short squeeze doesnt have to happen tomorrow. It could be in a week, 2 weeks, who knows. NOT THIS TIME Almost all, but not all - so, why not all of them? Seriously? Do you have any investing experience at all? RH made this move an hour before the markets opened and all of these stocks immediately tanked 20-30%. You can't trade equities on RH during pre-market hours so I had already taken a pretty big loss by the time the markets opened. Thank you of them witch do you like the app for most I already had Vangard for Roth stuff but their App is straight garbage kludgy. Fidelity has free trades... People keep saying this like I haven't sent Robinhood tens of thousands of dollars. Not in this case, the order flow is how they're all making money, however I'm sure they're trying to monetize your data but originally it was/is order flow [removed] [deleted] Just like now they claimed to be protecting the public from themselves You’d think so, but Goldman Sachs is a public company, and whatever the fuck they do is hidden under so many layers of obfuscating technobabble that it doesn’t seem to matter to anyone. What does that have to do with what you're replying to Good color and once again showing my ignorance to this subject matter. Thank you. You are not wrong and I don't think you are defending them, but people probably lost a lot of money with the sudden drop, so yeah we are all emotional now lol You have thoroughly missed the point. No one cares that if it is legal. You know what else was legal? The Holocaust, segregation, monopolies, slavery etc. Imagine walking into a thread of people talking about how the Holocaust is bad and saying ‘well I’m not a Nazi but acccckkkgttuuaalllyy it was legal, so complain all you want, the law doesn’t care.’ How do you think that would go down. And no I’m not calling you a Nazi. It’s an extreme example of the same logic as an analogy. That is to say, read the room dude lol. I think I read that on Reddit.I seem to recall that there was a company executive involved that ignored some key information (of some sort) but was too arrogant to realize this. If I recall correctly, they had to rent a barge to store the oil (or whatever it was, but I think it was oil). For some reason, I *think* this was on /r/maliciouscompliance (sp??), but I'm not at all certain, and I may have the wrong end of the stick. Still meets the definition of market manipulation and should be pursued by the SEC but the US is a joke so that will never happen [deleted] If you’re already invested in their platform, and in the stock that they’re negatively affecting by interfering in supply and demand on their platform, they are negatively affecting their users (and everyone holding shares) in a tangible way. I think that’s pretty objective and pretty indefensible. If they let you buy into a stock and then stopped letting you buy more of it while the price is low, while also restricting purchasing completely for everyone but still allowing selling, effectively driving down the price of the stock they let you buy initially, yeah I’d say they’re only doing half the job. If it's a financial rebellion why does it collapse when people have to pay three dollars for a trade instead of getting it free? When people base their financial rebellion around nonsense stocks and a two year old iphone app that lets them do free trades, it's hard to be surprised when no one takes them seriously. https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.553175/gov.uscourts.nysd.553175.1.0.pdf There will initially be multiple lawsuits from many states and either we will all band together or mostly with several individual lawsuits. [deleted] I believe there is one out of NY It's already filed Because I would literally leave a one star review multiple times and it would be gone That’s entirely possible. However, my guess is that if this situation plays out like that, we’re going to witness a new trading platform emerge for the people, by the people. A platform that does not sell order flow, and exists solely to prioritize the investment goals of retail investors. Trading platforms like Robinhood were always a liquidity originator for the big fish, and what’s happening now is making that plainly clear. Sorry I'm retarded, would you mind explaining how options work in the context of how their expiration moves the stock? Seriously? Yes, lots. It's not something I just toss around but I'm a CFA charterholder and I've worked in finance for 15 years. By the way, I have no position in GameStop or any other wsb related companies so the share price is of no interest to me, except that (believe it or not) I have long been an advocate for people making good financial decisions. This story is great fun (I genuinely think it's a really interesting case study) but it is drawing in amateurs who have no idea what they are getting into because of the headlines it is making. Turns out it was Apex’s fault, not really TastyWorks or probably even Robinhood Does anyone know if Ally went down? It seemed to. Cool story Dude, I've been OG WSB since it got on the news last week. How dare you. Lots of weird voting and comments going on. Some comments instantly upvoted/downvoted, then over time trend to where they should be. Ofc, and it goes without saying, fuck all these guys. I understand, and sorry if I came off that way. I should add an edit to the OP. I think it is shitty af and needs change. Isnt the first step to making a change understanding the framework in which it exists? For instance, if we know that disclosure of conflicts of interests can absolve RH amd Citadel, thats the first step in perhaps requiring RH to act as a fiduciary for its clients. I think explaining the situation is the first step towards discourse. Thats not the same as saying that what the Nazis did was legal, it would be like pointing out what they are doing amd saying it should not be legal. Your tone towards me is unwarranted - I am not a part of the problem. I didnt say that its legal so fuck off. I said its legal and shitty and we should change it. We are on the same side of this, not sure why you dont see that. Hitler actually did take power legally Its not though. Ill tell you why. Robin hood is not a market maker. If you were a big enough trader to be one, youd have access to a seat on the NYSE and there would be zero restrictions. Market makers legally can choose which trades to accept. Its a conflict of interest, one which is disclosed by Robinhood per FINRA and SEC rules to customers when they sign up for an account. Its totally legal. It is shitty that its legal but it is. Explain how I am wrong Lol this is such a misunderstanding of what is going on, like RH is a sole broker and not just one of many platforms (a small percentage of which temporarily halted the purchasing of a pump and dump stock) It collapsed for today because the hedge funds and brokers had to do the equivalent of breaking the Geneva convention by forcing robinhood to restrict buying of the major stocks in question. Its straight up ILLEGAL market manipulation and collusion. For gods sake a broker on CNBC straight up said that they halted trading to protect themselves from a situation where they're losses technically are unlimited but were completely unavoidable if they didn't get greedy. They're starting to be taken seriously. This is where it begins. There are some very intelligent people on this side. And they don't give a damn about the money they could lose, or what you think of them. It's happening. Its about ideology and wealth disparity in the US now, and the thing about ideologies is that they are highly uniting and motivating. How do we become a part of this? Yes!! I hope this and subsequent lawsuits are the catalyst for change I certainly hope so! This is bound to be historic. That's fine though, it's less about winning the suit and more about making sure they lose the suit. Now that would be an interesting development! Whatever happens I’m investing heavily in my popcorn stocks for the next few days 🤣 A couple ways - with options you can see the direction that the market expects the stock to go. Based on dates, strike price, and volume you can see if the market expects something to rise or fall. Another way is if you buy a OTM call, some market maker might take you up on that deal. Say ABC is at $10, and you buy a $30 strike. If (and most likely) it expires and the underlying stock is less than $30, it exprires, you lost all your money, and the market maker made a few pennies. BUT if it expires and the underlying shot up to say, $32, the market maker would have to buy shares at 32 and sell them to you at 30 (per the contract agreement of the option). One way the market maker can protect themself is by buying the underlying stock at the low (or lower) price - so in the example i just gave if they notice that ABS is climbing, they buy it at 15, then it ends up at 32, they can sell you the stock they bought at $15 for $30. Notice - they (the market maker) is now buying shares because you bought an OTM call. Buying shares drives up the price. In this example it wasnt the actual purcahse/sale of the option that changed the underlying price, but it caused stock to be purchased as a sort of protection. Look up ""gamma squeeze"" for an actual professionals explanation. tldr holding options might make somebody buy the underlying that normally wouldnt [deleted] Yes. Never seen a brokerage ban buying while only allowing folks to sell. I don't know why the exchange didn't halt. Thanks for the explanation, not sure why the other guy is being so hostile. The real question next is if Melvin had enough time with the halts and no buys to cover their shorts for tomorrow’s expiration. I know? That’s what I said? So change the fucking law. Quit defending immoral shit by saying it’s technically legal. You’re part of the problem. Did you learn about financial rebellion and how to topple the elites playing magic the gathering or overwatch? Contact a lawyer. If I wanted to buy these stocks today. But I hadn’t before and I couldn’t as they wouldn’t allow it. I possibly lost out on potential revenue as a retail buyer. I honestly was gonna buy some meme stock after reading about it. Would I still be eligible do y’all think? Could literally everyone who has ever downloaded RobinHood jump on this class action? (I know, talk to my lawyer. Just curious on everyone’s thoughts.) I am ok with that only if their are true changes to the system. If the lawyers are the only ones getting paid and no true changes are made, look at what happened in 2008, then I want to get paid. We can not keep tolerating and allowing the mega rich to manipulate the system without change. Well, your wife is committing infidelity if she has a boyfriend, but if she has two husbands, is it really infidelity? It happens My broker wouldn’t let me buy oil futures when they went negative last year Maybe for the best but I’m still pissed Thank you, I get it, emotions are high today all over. I hope Melvin gets fucked tomorrow, but I also hope we investors stop fuckin around with Robin Hood too...no reason to let their shitty business model stand in anyones way. Are you asking if you know and if that's what you said? Im not defending anything lose the tone. I said its shitty. Wtf you want from me bro lol. Im explaining the law that you dont seem to understand, I agree there should be more investor protections. How tf am I a part of the problem? I can see we have no more of value to discuss here. Good day. Any recommendations for a lawyer that would cover someone who can’t even afford tendies at the moment? To be fair.. OP's gender is nonconfirmed and we could be looking at some sort of tripod ordeal Oil futures are a different animal since the securities contain sooo much leverage and there is a physical delivery component. Vanilla equities, not so much. What are you talking about? I said ‘the Nazi takeover was legal’ and you replied ‘actually, the Nazi takeover was legal’. I’m asking you what your point is and why you attempted to correct me by saying what I’d originally said. I think you’re confused. How is the revolution going comrade? C'est vrai! Yea I’d be more pissed if it was a common stock The silver lining in all of this is the learning experience at least Actually, I said Hitler took power legally. When someone explains the rules of basketball to you, do you start melting down about them defending players being taller than you? \-DTCC, SEC and ICC have rules in place to auction off defaulting members assets and allow non-members such as Blackrock to bid on the discounts once those members are forcibly liquidated. \-Short seller losses have totalled over $40 billion since January \-Naked Shorting is being brought to public attention since loopholes may exist that allow it to continue by certain privileged individuals. Link to Interview on Fox Business with Wes Christian, a stock fraud lawyer [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRVBbNYfAOM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRVBbNYfAOM) \-And I've made a 4x return so far. ​ Its going well, comrade. See you in three months. Ok I think you’re insane. We are both saying the Nazi takeover was legal. You’re arguing only with yourself. Nice What would you call it when someone explains laws and terms of service agreements to you and you have a tantrum about them defending something they are just explaining? Also you are comparing an app that won't let you buy shares in gamestop to nazis, so you might want to take a step back. Ah so now you’re changing tack because you got called out on your dumb comment. The point is dude, everyone knows it’s technically legal, that’s completely missing the point. We’re not talking about legality, we’re talking about how it’s shitty. If I say ‘hey that thing is shitty’ and someone comes back and says ‘yeah but it’s legal so whatever’ I’m going to reply that it doesn’t matter that it’s legal, it’s shitty. And that’s what I did. I did not compare GameStop or OP or anyone to nazis, I simply used the nazis as an example of something bad that was legal, to point out that saying something is legal is not a good argument in defence of that thing to the extent that it’s a pointless thing to say. Seriously, just sit down, you’re thoroughly embarrassing yourself. Someone explained reality to you and you started crying about them defending it You said > No one cares that if it is legal. You know what else was legal? The Holocaust, segregation, monopolies, slavery etc. You know who else restricted buying gamestop? That's right, the Nazis. Also in the south it was forbidden for slaves to own stock in companies that sold used copies of madden. Stalin and pol pot targeted gamers. Chinese Uguyrs have been stripped of their ability to buy block buster liquidators stock for free. ... Sir, this is a Wendy’s. You’re making no sense, you can’t even get your argument in a row. Now you’re comparing robinhood to the nazis? After wrongly thinking I did? Are you mental? If you had a point, it is so far lost, that this is currently an exercise in futility. I’m done talking to you, you’re clearly struggling with reading comprehension, ordered and logical thinking and you’re just an actual weirdo. You just seem angry and like you want to lash out but don’t have the mental capacity to do that effectively. I literally quoted you comparing robinhood to the holocaust and slavery. You quoted me using an analogy to point out that legal ≠ good. I even put a fucking disclaimer in the original comment so you couldn’t possibly get confused but you did anyway. Then after you quoted me, you went on to literally compare trading restrictions with the nazis. If you were being sarcastic, you should have used the /s because you haven’t earned enough benefit of the doubt considering the idiocy you’ve been saying to me. To sum: you’re fucked in the head and apparently can’t read. Stay in school. I can't believe you're defending wall street. Lmao ok. Blocking you now, weirdo. Have a good one! Typical of someone who can't separate the law from advocacy" U.S. Airlines Ask for Bailout as They Spent 96% of Free Cash Flow on Buybacks from 2010-2019,4425,https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-16/u-s-airlines-spent-96-of-free-cash-flow-on-buybacks-chart,"How exactly is this not corporate socialism? We tried corporate socialism more than once. This time, skip the corporations and give every American over 18 1k a month due 3 months. The velocity of money from the consumer level will help more than handing money to corporate failures. And if they need it they’ll get it. They’ll also be forced to pay it back, with interest and likely get burdened with a bunch of financial regulation going forward. But we need our airlines operating for more reasons than we can all count. The new Big Short - COVID-19 version is happening right before our eyes. Just wait till everyone sees how much of a house of cards this all is. Nobody has any money - everyone just has debt. As soon as revenues dry up from everyone staying home, the whole fuckin thing is going to collapse. America’s reckoning with debt is at hand. [deleted] Gettin real tired of being responsible and doing what I was supposed to to ensure a level of safety in a time like this, then watchin the gov print more cash for irresponsible companies that didn’t stockpile some profits. Any public assistance should include limits on executive pay, elimination of stock buybacks, labor representation of the board, and minimum seat size. Should’ve been more responsible and paid down their debts. Where was their emergency fund? They spent it instead of saving, and they should get what they deserve. Let them file for bankruptcy Nah boomer, I’ll wait until the new airlines can startup in 2021. As a result, I think any taxpayer-funded bailout should include significant amounts of equity in the company, not just an interest-bearing loan. This would basically 'unwind' their shitty decision in the past, and allow taxpayers to benefit rather than investors who SHOULD have held their corporate officers accountable Fuck them. Let them sell their stock at pennies a share. Any company spending tax cuts on stock buybacks should not get any taxpayer money for future bailouts. I know it’s briefly been touched on but can someone compare what American Airlines vs let’s say Delta has done over the last decade with their profits and ELI5 arguments for and against a “bailout” I think the general sentiment is American Airlines didn’t do much to improve their fleet or service and pumped their profits into buybacks more than its competitors, and based on my very limited travel experiences recently I’d say that’s at least a reasonable conclusion. I have a limited finance background and appreciate the nuance y’all are adding regarding the boom bust nature of the industry as a whole. The really infuriating thing about this is that one of the main arguments against tax cuts was that companies would just use the money on buybacks, not on other things that actually benefit people other than the shareholders' short term interest. They were just a giveaway. And now here we are. Many compainies did exactly the stupid thing we knew they would do with the handout we gave them, and we're being asked to pay the price for their stupidity. All the good points in the article and below aside - the title has very aggressively inflated the 96% number. If you look at the [chart](https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/idBNV3TiaOuY/v0/-1x-1.png) not a single airline shown has gone above 80% (and the weighted average of those, which are shown is likely in the 60-70% range) The headline value is fully driven by American Airlines, which are contributing $12.5b to the numerator and some negative value to the denominator (and that's why it's not shown on the chart on a stand-alone basis) Not that it changes the message much (US-based airlines are distributing more of their FCF than S&P500 on average) and is technically correct (AA is a US-based airline so it's fair to include it in the industry composite when comparing to S&P500, which will have similar instances too). However, think Bloomberg as a supposedly reputable news organisation could've done a bit better here [Are Stock Buybacks Starving the Economy?](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/07/are-stock-buybacks-starving-the-economy/566387/) >A new report finds that big companies could have given their workers thousands of dollars’ worth of raises with the money they spent on their own shares. Would have been nice for more of that distributed to workers wages and consumers at this time. Fuck it let them go under. Then nationalize the airlines by buying up the assets at a sweet deal. The government should just let them tank because they won’t just stop having airlines instead they’ll be forced the restructure when someone buys them out The next year or two is going to a legit fire sale of the American government for large corporations and the 1%. I mean, it has been for the last three years, but it’s going to be. Maybe you guys should try to make a business which takes in more money than it costs... Bunch of idiots, right? Just like all the suckers who took out loans from predatory organizations who knew the borrower couldn't pay, but being insured, it is no skin off their back... someone else will pick up the tab. After 2001, airlines basically hemorrhage money like they have full blown AIDS. Gotta pay the dick-touchers and the armed guards because a bunch of saudis crashed a couple planes. Speaking of planes... how much fuel are you going to dump into the atmosphere so rich assholes can have instant gratification? The best facet: the instagram influencer who flies all over the world to shame others about THEIR carbon footprint, while some huge miltinational corporation pays their way........... for fuks sake... So normal people should have an emergency fund saved for going 3 months without a job. But airlines can splurge their money on buy backs, not save anything and then one month into this low period, they’re begging for taxpayer money. Knowing full well they’re a cyclical industry. Like hell no! You had your time and you blew it. Now instead of putting money into the school system, or infrastructure repair, we need to bail them out. Ugh But also, I need airlines to travel home to see family :( This stinks. Never been happier that I stopped flying in 2002 and have no investment in irresponsible businesses. Unfortunately, because the government can somehow always find money to prop them up, this will change nothing, they will learn nothing and continue to buyback their own stock, then ask the government for more invisible money when they fuck up again. They also expect me to care and fret for these businesses while I'm struggling to get by, then if I have a sudden unexpected problem that I can't afford I'm told that I was being irresponsible and should've prepared better. So I have to, but businesses don't. Can't imagine why I don't care when they cry about their financial hardship. I have a lot of phone calls to make to people who will forget that I told them so. ""I don't know, what's wrong with a buyback?"" This shit was written on billboards and blimps, not walls. Why don’t they try selling the stock to raise funds, like opposite of what they did leading up to the crisis? This is completely absurd. You use cash for buy backs to boost your own bonuses and now that you’re in the red you’re asking for a hand out? They should definitely not receive any sort of compensation from government. Greedy assholes. And guess what? They are gonna get the bailout and Americans are going to pay for it. Will probably happen, this country will not give a fuck about people until we get the pitch forks out You chose your path. Short term paper gains vs long term sustainability. Just die already. Maybe they can fly a bit slower and get better mileage... have they considered clipping newspaper coupons? Have they tried to spend less money? They obviously cannot figure out how to firmly grasp their bootstraps... Groupons, anyone? How about they use this time to make sure their fucking planes don't fall out of the sky? Wall Street gets bailed out, citizens did nothing. Banks got bailed out, citizens did nothing. Is this finally the time for citizens to stand up against this corruptions. Airlines have been making profit hand over fist, and they want to hang all these employees over our heads. You know what, we are all struggling in every industry. You're not fucking special. If this happens, we'll learn that all the executives gave themselves bonuses. Just a big fucking scam, and we are all too lazy to do anything about it. The government needs to handle this like financiers, offer them convertible bond loans or to buy stocks at pennies on the dollar and shoot in equity as a loan. When the business is up and running again the government sells off at market prices. Capitalism demands these businesses fail. Once they do, lots of cheap planes become available for someone new to come in and make a new airline. Losing bad businesses is good for capitalism. Fuck this. Let em go under and allow better run airlines take their place. I don’t think it’s time for corporate bailouts. Especially to big business that just got the tax cut of a lifetime. Bailouts, if they go out, should only go to large companies that failures threaten the system as a whole. The bailouts aren’t free either. They’re interest bearing loans. They should be penalized for requiring a bailout. I’d entertain non interest bearing loans after all other means are exhausted (including executives foregoing salaries) if they’re used only and specifically for extending payroll to non-executives. Alternatively, small businesses that employ middle class people should have government non interest bearing loans/bailouts widely available. A “small business” needs to be defined. As in a plumber with 20 employees, a restaurant with 50 employees. Not a private equity group with 5 employees. Bail out the people first! The airlines overextended themselves. If we do the same, there is no safety net for us. The Federal Government set this standard with the banks in 2008. Get levered up on cheap credit and when you go bankrupt, just collect your taxpayer bailout. Everyone realized it was unfair that only big business got the free money, so this time around Donald Trump is going to bail out the entire country. But if the taxpayer funds the bailouts then who is going to bailout the taxpayer? Easy, the printing press, and anyone storing wealth in US dollars will have to watch their buying power evaporate. The only upside is that governments worldwide are all doing the same thing, so we can all crash and burn together. Hopefully, the crash will be bad enough that it will finally put an end to this experiment with fiat currency. A they spent most of their money on buying back there stocks from shareholders, so they could consolidate the money for themselves, and now they want money? Shut the fuck up, you did bad business we shouldn’t have to fix your mistakes. Maybe next time you’ll remember why you sold the stocks in the first place TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION IN AN AIRLINE BAILOUT. Should only give them the bare minimum to stay afloat and a third party should administrate it. They had a bail out already and squandered it. At the end of the day fuck these guys. Give the money to the people and if people still want to fly with them. They will start earning revenue again. If they give shitty service, they die. Fuck them. I would think health care is a bigger priority than keeping planes in the air, which will only help the virus to propagate. Again. Cause we seem to bail this industry out at least once a decade. Let it go. That’s what a free market is. There needs to be a way to look past quarterly numbers. There’s little to no incentive for CEO’s to think in 5 or 10 year cycles Well maybe they shouldn’t have been so reckless with the volume of buybacks then.... Enough with corporate socialism. It’s not good for the general public and it’s not any better for corporate competition. That being said, once again we have little choice because we need airlines far more badly than we need to end corporate socialism in the short term sense. [deleted] They must bail themselves out with a fresh equity. Just reissue the shares they bought back. Sadly it will now be at a huge discount. But at least they will learn a lesson in how to not buy high and sell low. Guess what, your tax dollars will never ever be used to benefit your life under our current system. It all goes to special interests, corporations and banks who just piss it all away and pay out huge bonuses to their c-suite. The airline companies do this every ten years or so. Complain they are broke It's so frustrating having been shouting about how broken everything is FOR YEARS and getting argued with, and it's enraging that there are still people who support the scope and nature of the system that got us here. We can be running our civilization in a much better way than this. Most of us suffer because we do not. We deserve better thsn this... even after all the mistakes we've made. What would a free market decision be? If they want the money they need to give up some of the company. Then we make sure none of them get a golden parachute. No. Fuck these people. How many times do we have to do this? Instead of bailing out the corporations which won’t stimulate the economy at all. How about paying down some debt (Student loans & Mortgage) this would put money in the hands of the masses who can then spend more. Last week 1.5T bailout this week 850B and the market still went down. If the masses don’t got cash to spend the big companies won’t be making $$$$! So they buy back their stock, so that the senior management gets a giant bonus, and now they need to be saved? Fuck em! Maybe some ethical airlines will spring up after this. The world can use roads for a few months, if it means an end to corporate bail outs, starting now. Sounds like they need to issue stock. Better luck next time guys. They deserve to fail... capitalism baby thats gonna be a no from me dawg Yeah fuck American airlines and fuck AA in particular. Innovation to them meant downsizing toilet seats , passenger seats, charging luggage fees and 200 change fees. They should’ve used their cash to save for times like this or at least fucking upgrade their awful airplanes. And now they’re in default. Bitches. Let them suffer and prop up smaller businesses instead and those families who are struggling. They need to bleed a little. So damned unfair. No one is bailing out the thousands of small businesses that are fighting for their lives right now.. Enough corporate welfare Please government, do not make this mistake again. There’s a big difference between bailing out the second most highly regulated industry in the US that everything and everybody relies on no matter what sector to bailing out companies that provide elastic goods just to “save jobs”. I’ve always thought it silly to argue for biting off your nose to spit your face when it comes to the financial industry, and I still do to an extent in this case because I’m confident the US would make its money back, but at some point you have to realize the long-term consequences increase and the government was not created to serve as a public investment fund. Also I’m talking about US bailout of GM in that first sentence. Just say NO and let them go under . I hope every single one of these companies fails, I don’t care if I can’t fly anywhere. This is fucking bullshit. Very new to the finance game and love the comments below! Looking at these airline industries fall; what moves are people making “buying cheap” and why? Well that should of saved some cash for a rainy day. If we have to bail them out then we need to get a share of the company. JETS $12p 3/20 so I'm biased. But any company that operates in such a risky market like airlines do, if that's what the bulk of your free cash flow goes to, as a company, you deserve it. [deleted] Fuck em go out of business Bail out my fucking retirement account - fuck you Fuck articles with paywalls Republican bailouts are corporate socialism. Capitalism would allow these companies to fail. No more bag fees if you get my tax $ fuckers When I spoke to a financial advisor for the first time. The first thing he told me was have 15k liquid emergency fund. Only after that should I look to invest. Sorry airlines, but fuck you. Well your businesses to the government and let them run it until new companies can get up and running. This to big to fail shot has to end. Every bailout makes these massive industries bolder. This pandemic is proving the usefulness of so many progressive policies. It’s amazing how clear the writing on the wall is. I seriously fucking hate this world and what it has become. I praise the good people who do good work like doctors, scientists, engineers, etc. But I'm just so fucking sick of these corporations and having to bail them out. We take on all of the risks with zero rewards while they get to blow their money away since they know they could fall back on corporate socoalism for a bailout. Let them go under. No more bailouts! Bail them out but make the entire executive team and board quit, leave everyone that makes the machine run. fuck them If I was an investor in airlines during the 2010s, and they held high cash reserves for a future crisis, I'd be so pissed. There's absolutely no incentive for ailrines to hold cash reserves. -If you don't hold reserves and fail in a crisis, a bailout is guaranteed -If you do hold reserves, and your competitors don't, you've just insured you're the only airline **not** getting a bailout -If you and your competitors hold reserves, you've just lowered the performance of the sector today, while insuring a bailout does not come in a crisis Any bailout should be conditional on airlines maintaining basel-like capital reserves going forward. All those baggage fees ... I like how we’re all expected to have an emergency fund of 3-6 months of expenses but these massive corporations can’t even last a month. Holy SHIT what a number. Is this even the worst sector? Surely they can sell some of shares off again then.... F the airlines! Your poor decision aren’t my problem Fuck them Where’s all that money they’ve been charging for change fees all these years. Everyone but the little people will get a bailout. Shouldn't it be bootstrapping time? Big oof Fuck’em. I wish I could have a bailout... And those same airlines can sell shares if they need money. Public offering. Private offering. Warrants. Government doesn’t NEED to do anything. The problem with just giving Americans money right now is it certainly won’t help airlines in the short term They need to pull themselves up by the bootstraps. Remembering back to 2008, bailout didn't necessarily mean free money right? As in the US government was the largest shareholder of GM until like just a couple years ago? As much as I hate that these companies continue to be incredibly irresponsible and feel like they should get whats coming to them - my understanding that the US government stands to make a ton of money off of bailouts (obviously only if they prevent the company from going under) softens the blow a little bit. Let them die so the next company is more responsible. Planes don't disappear. The US government cares only about business and making money. It cares not one fucking penny about the people. Screw them! This is wrong. Imagine all industries asking for handouts. Well they can un-buyback those shares then. Let. Them. Die. Its almost as if its the consumers who create the jobs, interesting!!! Ridiculous This is crony capitalism At this point, just let them go under. The economy will always have need for airlines, they will go bankrupt and get new owners. There will still be airplanes. Let's bail out consumers instead LOL this headline oh dear oh my This is some greedy shit. They blow their liquid buying their own shares and hope to get more cash from .gov to do more of the same. This is just nuts. Why is it that airlines are not asked to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. For some reason welfare is okay if corporations are benefiting from it. Its time people opposed this policy. Wtf! Here we go again bail out the corporations not the people! Socialism for the corporate elites and boot strap capitalism for the people! Let em die FUCK airlines. Let them fail. If this is the case then they should use their fleet to assist in public distribution of supplies if they are taking public resources. And give up tax breaks when this epidemic passes for repayment. AND , now their stock has decreased 50%...wow, financial geniuses...... Berkshire Hathaway’s heavy breathing intensifies Ok we should help and the payback is the revenue steam (profits) will pay back the tax payers with interest until the debt is cleared. Capitalism is dead. Cause we all know that buybacks #1 job for shareholders and VP’s of U.S. Airlines earn more bonuses on share price. Not to actually help the company or prepare for the future. Nice job on that tax cut for business there Don. Nice job. So can they sell some of those stock back to raise some money? After cancelling my trip this week, I felt good about my flight credits until I realized: they are going to triple their prices for the rest of the year, or until our “Tavel bank credit” expires. Sounds like their problem to me Corporate welfare This crisis is exposing all the shortcomings of capitalism. Sort of how Trump revealed all the shortcomings of the government. And capitalism. Haha, I didn’t know airlines generated cash. Wait so they do a massive buyback, have no money left over and want the US Gov to bail them out? Also expecting their stock price to rise giving them the bail out money and increase stock price? What about the average American that needs a bailout? Nope: shut it down. That whole system needs to be reworked. In the end it will be us the people who suffer, while the republicans go home to their islands and laugh at those they screwed. Don’t give them shit!! Crooks! NOPE We are so fucked. This is going to be the reset button. Here's an idea to deal with all future bailouts: 1) Wait for the company to file chapter 11 2) Investors lose 100% of investment. Stock price goes to 0. 3) Government takes over all equity ownership and debt restructuring begins, Government keeps operations going 4) New equity IPO Wouldn't this prevent the conflict of interest of shareholder's pushing for huge buybacks and lots of debt? Movie theaters need help as they are forced to close but still need to pay fixed costs An epitome of moral hazard How can record 5 yrs of profits (bag fees, change fees, seat changes, etc etc) vanish in 2 months ? If they didn’t buyback shares, would they still be able to withstand the pandemic? Has anyone done the math? I haven’t but the COVID-19 is so serious to Airlines that I don’t think they would still be in good shape, even if they didn’t buy a single share. They need to issue equity first and effectively unwind buybacks done. Government should not be supporting them but can certainly provide some support for furloughed employees They can operate in bankruptcy like they did after 2001. No need to bail them out. I'm really torn on this,I get why it infuriates people that they did this, and then asked for a bailout. It's just good business to buy back your stock. Where I am torn, is we are one of the only countries that does not subsidize its airline. A lot of international carriers are owned by the government. The fact is no one say this coming, and Airlines are one of our largest infrastructures in this country. If we don't bail them out, what happens, from looking at the landscape,I believe only Delta will survive, maybe American. The rest would most likely crumble and that would be catastrophic. Why can't they get the bailout as a longterm interest or interest free loan, and make sure the money goes towards employees on the lower levels and not the execs? One of the things to consider though, is that in general, investors DO NOT like when companies hold excess cash. Powerful activist investors frequently pressure companies to dump these rainy day funds, ""put that excess cash to work, bud."" So it kinda feels like a lose-lose scenario when trying to hold a cash pile. If you hoard cash on your balance sheet during the good times, investors hate you. The other thing I'd be curious to know, is how much of an airline ticket is government revenue? I've heard from folks in the industry that the final price on a ticket is only 60% of the cost. The remaining 40% is gov't revenue. Airlines are an important source of funds for the gov't. Anyone have any additional color on this? Airlines are a strange industry. Highly regulated, unionized, capital intensive, consistently unhappy customers, etc. ""The news failed to shock consumers, who have been constantly reminded by sitting in the same shitty airplanes for the past decade."" It’s a very painful time for the aviation industry considering the impact of lockdowns on its revenues because of the Chinese virus! Why do people insist on trolling topic boards that they have no interest in and all they want to do is complaining about Corporate bailouts? If they took the time and learned something about trading and started a portfolio and make some money for themselves. These folks complaining are the problem. Not the corporations. Be part of the solution not the problem. They wouldn't need a bailout if everyone who complained invested the loose change in their pockets. 4Q19 conference call: ""We continue to estimate that our total adjusted debt will decline by approximately $3 billion to $4 billion over the next two years and $8 billion to $10 billion over the next five years. "" Privatise profits ; socialise losses [DrEmployee](https://dremployee.com) helped me save a lot of time when calculating my employees' paycheck every month. It also helps me record ther work hours and easily converts them to payroll. It's really a life-saver for us, people who do the math in the office lol... I know this is probably a radical idea and shit but, maybe we should just let them go out of business. Further, maybe we should take some of the land and tracks but we already own and revamp it and rework it and make Amtrak into a high-speed nationwide rail system. Perhaps we'd have to eminent domain some further land to make the routes make more sense and revamp the whole thing but, it seems a lot less pollution heavy not to mention more fiscally responsible to use the resources we already have and generate income for the country instead of bailing out an industry this created so much pollution and has really not done much in the way of helping people. Fuck’em. Free markets. You make a bad decision like spending your available cash on stock buybacks then you go under. The capitalistic market will take care of us. Just like it does with healthcare, education, and the internet. Fuck them. They should sell all of those stocks at below market value The answer should be a resounding HELL NO! What did they spend 9 years worth of money on that they blew through it in a month Fuck them! Poorly run businesses die. New ones will rise from the ashes and the assets and workforce will be ready for them. Tell them to sell shares! LOTS of them! do not bail them out Let them suffer Yeah, no, go fuck yourself. Let's let a few die to help teach responsibility to the other companies that aren't responsible with money. That's how it works in the US, right? As long as the bailout is a loan, I don’t have a problem with it. They will have to use free cash flow moving forward to repay it. Let them fail I thought this was the free market deciding airlines weren’t necessary? Either way bail out American families before pumping more cash into a repeatedly failed industry. How about we bail out the working class taxpayers first? Well, That just sounds like **A** **Ponzi scheme** with extra steps. [deleted] Holy shit. Lots of speculation and missinformation. Most of you seem to be unaware of the slim margins airlines make or the cost to run an airline, even if the planes are not flying. Starting an airline is not an easy thing to do and if the top 3 were to go under then the us would have very few transportation options for years and eventually be taken over by foreign companies. Gross. No company should ever get a government bail out. Let them fail. We shouldn't be flying as much as a society anyway. Fuckem. F*ck airlines..In fact, f*ck all corporations that tout the virtues of capitalism, then beg for their losses to be socialized! Literally a month ago they were calling Bernie a socialist and now they’ve given corporations over $2 trillion..enough to have payed for Medicare 4 All! How about BEING RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR LIFES DECISION..? NOT TO MENTION YOU GOT PAID TO MANAGE YOUR CORPORATE LIFE - Cheka, watz et sey? It is. How come I can’t mismanage my money and get away with it? And on top get bailed out? If they’re going to come running to the public when they’re in crisis like this, then the public needs to make sure that they can be responsible with that money by changing how these companies are ran. The airlines are essentially public utilities and regulation of the industry should be treated as such. We should also look to shift the ownership and management incentives away from short term shareholder value-maximization and toward long-term stakeholder value-maximization, where stakeholders include employees and the public. There are proposals out there for how to do this and the time is now to implement them. Some people ITT are calling for nationalization, which is probably unnecessary and comes with its own set of risks. Well, how do you define socialism? It's not free money. It's a loan. Really they should be bought out and broken down. They have a history of failure. Cause they are the job creators bruh and don't be so greedy, some of that money will trickle down to you Good 'ol American capitalism: the privatization of the profit, and the socialization of the losses. Funny how the argument against socialism is that people would just waste the money given to them... It is. This is actually bordering scam. Because corporate bailouts are interest-bearing loans. Not free money. What? Companies hoarding cash helps no one. It doesn’t even help the company 9.9/10. If they hadn’t been buying back shares they would have been spending the money on something else. Nah it's just socialized losses. Gains are still theirs to keep. Because it’s a loan not a handout? It’s a loan. [This is how I feel about the issue ](https://www.reddit.com/r/gifs/comments/fk2koq/my_compassion_for_us_airlines_is_like_their_ample/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) Shamelessly hijacking the top comment. This is a sincere question. Im a just dumb pharmacist, i don't understand all of the fancy financial stuff. How is taking a loan better than just selling back the shares that were reacquired? Is there still less risk taking the loan than losing the difference between the repurchase price and selling price? It is. This is the type of mercantilism and interventionism so called “free market” economists have been arguing against for atleast 200 years since Adam Smith. Not only does it not satisfy the socialists, but it does not satisfy the (ideological) capitalists as it allows the party in charge to pick winners and losers in the market, rather than letting the masses decide for themselves. But I ask for the gov to help me out and I’m a loser and drain on the system It is. But it's not benefiting that guy down the street that I don't like Trump said he was strongly against this and that he would caution any company who is considering doing this. They may have fucked up there. Privatized profits and socialized losses. socialism for the rich, fuck everyone else. This is America. Wouldn't this be closer to communism? Socialism is where the means of production are owned by the public if my understanding is correct. It is, and that is why we need to end all socialism. Let Boeing fail. First of all, sometimes. These bailouts are usually [paid back](https://projects.propublica.org/bailout/). Federal loans aren’t socialism. I get the feeling though, that if they had a massive cash reserve like Apple, you would’ve been saying to tax it all away over the last decade, and then we’d be in the same predicament. Capitalism tends to socialize/bailout things when not doing so would create a larger cost burden to the people. Imagine the financial fallout if the airline industry temporarily fell apart. It basic mafs. America is a democratic socialist country, it’s just the people don’t like the word socialism and because of that you do a terrible job of it - for example your healthcare costs. You know, maybe we should let the free market take care of this. Oh wait, I forgot. That might cost some rich fuck his tenth yacht. No can do. And because I'm suddenly obsessed with bad haikus for no good reason: * Oh wait, I forgot * That might cost some rich fuck his * Tenth yacht. No can do. The CEO and entire board should be forced to give up all salaries and bonuses until all loans with a high interest rate is paid back. Because that would mean admitting some form of socialism works, which corporations and republicans won’t do Its welfare. It’s not socialism if the shareholders are wiped out I agree with the way to deal with this one. But let's not pretend last time was wrong... not only did Obama's dramatic action save us from a worse economic situation, his bailouts actually netted the govt more money than they put in. Trumps tax cuts were unjustifiable and worsened our ability to deal with this crisis. But some form of bailouts here may be in our best interests I don't think it will be enough. They need to suspend loan payments, gas bills, electricity bills, garbage collection bills, and rent. In addition to that, they need to provide free testing and treatment to the 27 million uninsured. Otherwise, the virus can't be stopped. At best, Congress will get forbearance package approved this week which isn't even close to enough. 1k doesn't even pay for rent in single person households. If this thing continues more than a month then we are looking at a depression. They probably need to do both to be honest. These airlines are some of our largest companies and their existence employs a huge chunk of our middle class of gov and non gov workers. Plus, if you think flights in the US are expensive now, imagine how much more expensive they will become with fewer players. Probably is lack of demand due to people not being able to spend, people still have capital to spend. [deleted] I don’t like socialism but that’d be a way better alternative than to just give it to corporations who just end up pocketing the money or just buybacks I’m for this plan, but it will not save the airlines. People won’t or can’t travel at this time due to the virus, so the extra cash will support lots of industries but won’t really help travel or tourism. We can take buses. But they aren’t going to use that 1k for the airlines. No one is traveling, people are staying in. Not that I disagree with you, but it won’t solve some of our biggest airline companies going bust. I don't see why they should. Make them do a stock offering. They shouldn't have done a stock buyback. They should have been preparing. If they need it they should get it in a bankruptcy that wipes out the current shareholders. The airline can keep running, fine. The current owners should lose because they made bad financial decisions that required a taxpayer bailout. That would be a much simpler solution than 'a bunch of financial regulation going forward'. While that's true, it's also unfair to airlines that saved money and aren't asking for handouts now. [deleted] >But we need our airlines operating for more reasons than we can all count Then they should be regulated like utilities - profits and all. Like the banks on 2008. And they paid it back with interest. And then got fined for that. Even the banks that were forced to take money. Sounds like a good long-term bet for the federal government Don’t tell the Bernie bro’s this It isn't yet known if the entire amount given will have to be paid back. Yeah all those banks got their bailout and helped all these millions of people keep their houses while also paying every penny back to the taxpayers. Oh wait a minute. No that never happened. Greed is our credo. As an airline pilot, you’re right. The airlines are looking for every other option to keep afloat, but accepting bailout money is very risky because they’re burdening themselves financially just taking it. They don’t want to have to take it.. people don’t seem to realize that. My inbox has been very busy this week with airline and union emails on the plan to minimize the impact of this virus on business. Debt for equity swap. Business keeps running. No need for a bailout. Simple. That regulation will last about as long as it did last time. Glass steagall lasted how long? Can you explain those reasons then? Why not only have 1-2 major airlines instead of 4? The money should come with stipulations on how they spend for the next however many years. Stop cramming more and more people into a plane and charging fees on top of fees, etc. We as taxpayers should at least be able to demand better treatment if we’re the ones who have to bail them out after getting fucked by them for years. When did you first start licking boots? What got you into it? Forreal. Very little of it is liquid, relatively speaking. Not to mention, these billionaires are only so via their assets, largely based on evaluations and speculation, not on how much is actually in the bank. Fuck Let's start with inflation question. Theoretically increasing money supply increases inflation. That's if there is no deflationary pressure. For instance, airline industry is pretty much shut down. There is no demand so there is massive deflationary pressure. Adding funds into that industry would only stop deflation. In long-run, the Fed can control inflation by raising rates. As for bailouts, it doesn't make any sense right now. It's been one week and they want money to service debt payments. In Delta's case, the CEO is asking employees to take unpaid leave. How is that fair? Are CEOs and management taking a pay cut? Why do taxpayers have to bailout a company that took on too much debt? If we keep doing this then we(taxpayers) are insuring the debt holders. We(taxpayers) are assuming the risk without any reward. Why do we need to prop up stock prices? Let equity go to zero first and then you can provide assistance in the bankruptcy court. I support helping the workers not only in airline industry but every industry. It won't be an option. Did you know fast food & retail industry has 40 times more workers than the airline industry? Airline industry has about 650,000 vs fast food & retail industry's 26,000,000. Most of those fast food & retail workers won't be working at all for the next few weeks. Assuming the companies default, they will file for Chapter 11 (reorganization) under the US Bankruptcy Code. This will essentially make the companies' stocks worth 0, and it will transfer ownership of the companies' assets to their lenders (bondholders, banks). The lenders will essentially have free reign to do whatever they want with the company that will minimize their loss on the principal. This can include asset sales, massive layoffs, union contract re-negotiations, or liquidation. Cons : No more airplanes. Pros: More train or cars trips. Honestly I'd be 100% ok with letting them fail and not being able to fly anywhere for next 6 months while buyouts and restructuring takes place. Small price to pay for teaching airlines not to fuck over their customers while mis managing their funds. As a beginner in finance you should ignore all other responses aside from ""you should learn the basics and not worry about this for now"". They borrowed MORE MONEY to do stock buybacks They spent it all on avacado toast and lattes smh Banks got that regulation I thought? After 2008 they had to have a reserve of like 15%? I dunno. I think the he problem you have here is that in order for flying to be like, even remotely affordable, you need huge capital investments and a good amount of competition, meaning low margins. Back of the envelope but basically if Delta kept enough cash on hand to sustain 4 months of 90% revenue loss they would basically not return any money to shareholders for like 12 years. Meaning no one would invest in them, so they either wouldn’t exist at all or be available only to the super rich. Delta took their profits into a casino and let them ride. American Airlines opted to buy lottery tickets with their profits. The airline industry is run on very, very thing margins like you would not believe. This ultimately makes flying for the consumer extremely efficient and cheap. If you compare ticket prices from 'the golden age of flying' to now after adjusting for inflation you'd see that ticket prices have decreased significantly not trying to take away blame, but American Airlines has purchased hundreds of new 737s to replace the aging MD-80s along with a bunch of retrofits ^ This guys maths r/theydidthemath Actually, what is more likely is the smaller airlines, like Spirit, will have a crack at buying assets for cheap and gaining a larger foothold at prime terminals increasing their market share and creating a better company for investors. Acting as if one of these large airline companies goes under, or even all do them, is the end of the world is a lie. Will create some market volatility, create a poor impact on certain consumers and investors? Sure. Will that eventually be replaced by smarter, more financially sound companies? Yes, and it will happen at a faster pace than most people realize. What about all the employees, what you’re suggesting would leave hundreds of thousands, if not millions unemployed. Pilots, stewardess, maintenance workers, companies that supply services or parts would all go out of business. The reason a bailout is used is to save an industry so millions of Americans do not go unemployed. Interesting perspective If you don't want people to like you then go right ahead. They will be selling at a loss [deleted] Actually made me lol. It’s actually a good point I haven’t seen so far in this thread! 1) that’s not how buybacks work. You buy back stock in the name of the shareholders, because the shareholders own the company. When you buy back a share of stock, all remaining shareholders now own a larger % of the company, hence the value of their share goes up. It doesn’t accrue to the management team in any meaningful way 2) there’s literally no way for airlines to both a) run profitably during normal times while delivering affordable service to customers and b) be prepared for the total collapse of their industry and an 80% decline in demand. The industry systemically faces bankruptcy risk because it is so capital intensive, price competitive and low margin. And in instances where they need government assistance, trust me management and shareholders get taken to the cleaners. These stocks are down 40-60%, the investors and management are feeling excruciating levels of financial pain because of this. So don’t act as if this is some kind of no strings attached carte Blanche bailout You might be interested in reading about the principal-agent problem. It essentially deals with what you are referring to So we shouldn’t bail out some of the largest employers in the country but should bail out an individual that is in the same position? As a tax payer I prefer not funding irresponsible individuals OR corporations. They completely missed the demand side of the equation. If people can’t afford to buy anything, corporations will go under. I'm sticking with MSFT right now. My F stocks are massacred. That’s only for us peasants! fuck yeah I would tend to agree but there a TON of people who support every flight that would lose their jobs and families income. It is very hard to feel sorry for them considering how they treat their customers. Maybe this well make people realize we really do not need them as much a we think we do. You’d have to be insane to buy airline stocks right now Agree. They need to learn how to manage their balance sheets better. If they're already too leveraged they need to sell shares. Yeah I feel like they should exhaust all options for raising private capital before there is any consideration of a bailout. Recapitalize at lower valuation or hand it over to the bond holders. Pseudo nationalization should be last resort and should be punitive for both equity and debt holders if it happens. There is certainly some technical truth to your comment. I think many people are hung up on the moral hazard point. Also, even if the government can profit off of the situation is it really something that should be normal? I understand it’s not ‘likely’ but it’s only been 12 years since the last and if we run at once a decade or so I’ll call that ‘normal.’ Airlines failing is not a good idea but I don’t know if bailouts are either. My degree is in Finance and it’s a lot to consider even when you study it regularly... They only care about large businesses. They don’t care for the little man and his little shop or people who work for themselves.Or the mom and pop restaurant that has been open for 30+ years. It’s always been billionaires bailing out billionaires. Corporate socialism yet Bernie is demonized Does that make trump our savior? Cool, let me just take a 24 hour Amtrack between NYC and Cali real quick. Also how tf do you expect international and intercontinental travel to work now? Impossible... the moment a sale is made that price is market value. Great now you can walk They’re talking about existing airlines, not startups. And if existing airlines have the cash to do stock buybacks (which is retarded when the market is at record highs) then they probably should have been retaining some of that cash for a “rainy day” instead of operating on a knife’s edge. I’m curious what are your thoughts on smaller airlines just taking over the Big three’s position. Why shouldn’t this be a lesson to big corporations about saving money for a rainy day? Isn’t that the way capitalism works though? Let’s go without it then until somebody can do it better. “Socialist are bad” - Wall Street “Please give us money we’ve had a bad two weeks” - Also Wall Street who stayed their welcome and corporations are just organizations typically controlled by a single family. buybacks are just a way to legally launder money. also they probably spent a good chunk of their money trying to convince people to not invest in high speed rails in the US. maybe the US and other countries will finally be able to develop their public transportation system without the interference of a bunch of frat boys. It’s corporate welfare Seriously FUCK THESE GUYS. ‘Socialism’ is when poor people benefit. This is Capitalism! I think! Just give cash. How is it mismanaged? As a shareholder would you have wanted them to hold back 96% of the FCF since 2010 in case of a pandemic? You would vote out everyone. It's not like they cheaped out on capex. Returning money to shareholders is their job. Do you employ half a million people tax paying individuals? If so, theyll give you a loan or buy a large amount of stock to keep you afloat, too. Well corporate socialism is socialism without any of the benefits. Airlines will get the money at the taxpayer's expense because taxpayers will bear the risk. Taxpayers will probably get low rate of return [when adjusting for risks] on the money lent to the industry. In classic socialism, the community would at least benefit from investing in the airline industry. An example would be nationalization. You might argue that by saving the industry the community is benefiting but that's not true. The government can provide direct assistance to the workers and cut out the airlines. [edit] and don't forget moral hazard. remember that phrase from 2008. Queuing for food, suppression of the human will to better themselves and compete. And general misery and hopelessness. Good for the first few weeks though. Can I also have a gigantic 0% interest loan as well if we are handing them out? At close to 0% interest rate on a risk-adjusted basis, it certainly is free money. Give anyone a big enough loan and they too can buy an airline and pay back the loan eventually. The airlines are asking for grants and loans according to this article. https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/airline-industry-seeking-more-than-50-billion-in-government-aid-amid-coronavirus-crisis/2020/03/16/62f21e06-67ab-11ea-9923-57073adce27c_story.html > Among the requests is nearly $30 billion in grants for passenger airlines and cargo carriers, according to a document from Airlines for America, the industry’s leading trade group. > > In addition, the industry is seeking $25 billion in loans and temporary tax relief in the form of a repeal of all federal excise taxes on tickets, fuel and cargo through the end of 2021 and a rebate of all federal excise taxes paid between January and March of 2020. Not when you adjust for risk. According to Wiki, TARP recovered funds totalling $441.7 billion from $426.4 billion invested, earning a $15.3 billion profit or an annualized rate of return of 0.6% and perhaps a loss when adjusted for inflation. If you want better source let me know. In short, adjusting for risk, taxpayers are practically giving out free money. https://www.nationalreview.com/2015/01/overselling-tarp-myth-15-billion-profit-matt-palumbo/ Does bailing out student debt or universal health care not stimulate the economy? If we wiped out student debt and made college free tomorrow in the same way would we not see a massive spending boom and over time a much better educated populace? Why don't we see the value in investing in people the same way we see investing in corporations that used a massive tax bill for buybacks. The 12 billion that went to farmers was a handout. Nothing is required to be paid back, socialism at its finest. Hoarding cash helps the company in a sudden crisis. Deciding to spend 96% of their FCF to share buybacks was a company decision. A decision out of many possible ones, and a risky one at that. It turns out that risks materialised and the company is now having to deal with the risky decision they made. You're making it seem like they had no choice but to go the risky route, but it's objectively not true. A zero interest loan is a handout. Well for one, the stock prices are collapsing, so selling shares might be difficult, plus reissuing shares would cause the stock price to collapse more due to the additional supply. They need a government loan because the government is the only person willing to “buy” or support them at the moment. No, your understanding is not correct. The difference between TARP and a bailout here is that a bankrupt bank cant function and has huge ripple effects in the economy, whereas a bankrupt airline can continue functioning perfectly fine and doesn’t cause major ripple effects. We know this because airlines go bankrupt all the time. Could you site the “government got more money than it put in”, please? Not trolling, honestly want to read this. Weren’t they Bush’s bailouts? He signed the bill towards the end of his presidency. Obama also campaigned against the bail out and didn’t give all the available money to banks. Your missing the point. Obama drug it out further and Trump excaserbated it. Let the company's fail. Help the employees. New business will come out of the ashes. We need this. It’s much, much, much easier to just give people money than it is to suspend all the payments you listed. Everything needs to be freeeee I mean...it will be stopped eventually. Congress approved a $10T tax cut for business, what’s that work out to per person, including kids? Something like 30k right? You don't need testing. You just need to stay the fk home. You can expect it to last more than a month because you won't stay home like the rest of the world. You cherish those freedoms and liberties a bit too much and it's going to result in you being jobless and broke. Are you on crack? This is not whats happening. Think of how much money and jobs the tourism generated by the airlines makes. I made a typo. I did not mean ""due"", I meant for 3 months. A temp. UBI. I am saying I don't give a shit about airline companies. I care about people. No business could prepare for this. A 9/11 scenario? Maybe. But months of mandated economic shutdown, how could anyone prepare? You seem a bit clueless as to how it worked with Freddie Mae/Mac in 2008... If the airline continues to run and only changes owners, the stock is only temporarily affected. Very normal people hold airline stocks in their portfolio. Cuz fuck the retail investors, amiright? And its unfair to me commoner who worked ass off and saved money in bank because don't want to risk in stock pyramids, and now losing its value due to inflation because of the same pyramid. Bankruptcy isn’t sacrificing anything. The company keeps running if they are mostly profitable. Stock holders just get wiped out and bond holders take over. The only way to teach people is to have consequences for actions. The problem isn‘t so much that „they have made dumb choices“ but that the framework these choices were made in (overfinancialization) is not adressed while we simply pump more and more money into these „dumb“ companies. I don‘t think we‘d have any problem with saving companies if we calmed capitalism down a bit. But this is simply not sustainable. It ends up being a contradiction of the whole free market argument. If the businesses are irresponsible shouldn’t they go under? The business model is viable and incredibly profitable these businesses should have capital for situations like this. There are other industries that deserve the funding before airlines. It's more like they make dumb choices continuously, over a period of decades. Delta, United and AA need to be allowed to go bust in order to see a truly new and vibrant aviation industry. Monopolies are bad that's fine if you're ok with airfare going up This made me laugh way too hard. Kcuf Honestly I have no knowledge of Delta's Financials, or airlines for that matter. Why is it common for them to already be hemorrhaging money within 2 weeks of bad business? Do these companies not have contingencies, a fallout plan, if their revenues get cut in half overnight? Keep x amount of very liquid assets (or even cash) to satisfy any short term cash expenditures? Obviously this isn't sustainable long term, but to operate on such thin windows of sustainability seems asinine to me. On the upside I feel like there is no political capital to let this happen. I feel bad because I have friends in the industry, but ultimately I think they need to go bankrupt and start over. The free marketeers and anti cronyists would both get a big win. [deleted] Well said Why not give all the workers 1k per month and let the businesses sort the rest out on their own? In the current 0% interest rate environment someone should be able to step in and offer airline or fast food products that will meet the needs of tomorrow’s society. Add nationalized healthcare and college and these types of startups will be even better prepared to find success. > We(taxpayers) are assuming the risk without any reward. You could argue that the ""reward"" is the function of our society. I'm not saying it's right to bail them out but to say that you're not rewarded for floating the company when it goes up is a little disingenuous. Perhaps the better idea would be to let them go belly up and then have the government step in and run the airlines directly? Employee probably more people, and even if it operates at a loss and costs taxpayers more, maybe they could reduce fairs for american citizens? idk. Crazy times = crazy ideas. [deleted] Theory being have a higher claim to cash flow that will yield more than interest payments, not exactly the Ponzi scheme it’s made out to be though I agree the government should unwind a lot of the regulations that gave us our current situation in buybacks Lol banks have had a reserve requirement for as long as banks have existed i prefer the services of Delta than American. its like Target versus Walmart Yep. Back then there was a government agency called the Civil Aeronautics Board. The government set the prices of airfare to help ensure the airlines would not go out of business. Once prices were deregulated the competition got intense and prices went down. Thin margins. I really wonder what the combined compensation of the board of directors is. Hey buddy this isn’t 2014 I never said it was the end of the world. I just said if they all go out of business it’s in the best interest of American people to use the money that would be used in a bail out, to just nationalize the industry I know people working pretty high up in Spirit... Things are not looking good for them either. What makes you think bailing out the airline companies will save those jobs? There will always be airlines. In this moment there is extremely low demand for flights. What’s to say that in a bankruptcy/restructuring there aren’t new companies that emerge to satisfy that demand that will need these pilots, stewardesses, etc.? Would there not new companies shortly later? They’re going to cut the majority of the jobs anyway as the virus spreads. Spend the money elsewhere. That’s the silliest thing I’ve heard in a long time. To say that you can completely mismanage cashflow, not have adequate insurance, pay your executives millions and be 110% absolutely immune to any risk associated with business downturn is absurd. People don’t lose a job and die, they lose a job and find another one. Or maybe instead of bailout packages they should pay the wages of airline staff but the money should never land in the hands of the executives because it won’t work the way you think it will. Businesses don’t usually turn over profits for the first few years and after that the margins are small, and that’s with restaurants and corner stores, but you’re telling me a multi billion dollar industry deserves out tax dollars for nothing because they can’t handle a temporary travel ban? What a joke Calling now Umm, you know what a free market is, right? I think the bigger worry is diluting share ownership and values, which they should absolutely bear. So we should just give a company money to help them not sell at a loss? The American people should be at a loss instead? Like spend everything they have so the only option is to be bailed out? It should be law if the govt has to bail a corp out, all officers of the Corp are sent to jail. You must have been stoned for a couple of decades if you don't know executive and management compensation in nearly every company has been as stocks. Hard to take your seriously with a fatal flaw in the very first argument. American Airlines Ceo Doug Parker's salary was zero, his income was 100% stocks. Executives compensation is frequently tied up in metrics like earnings per share that can be goosed by, you guessed it, stock buy back programs. Executives can also hold a large amount of company stock from their compensation package, which they can inflate with a buyback and then cash out their position. Executives have been using buybacks to benefit themselves at increasing rates for years. is any of the management forfeiting their millions? Your second point, especially in regards to airlines not being profitable, could not be further from the truth. The last four years have seen US airlines averaging ~$20.00 in profit per passenger, for a margin of around 9%, with after tax net income well into the black since 2010. Southwest turned a profit 46 years in a row. The airlines should be sitting pretty on major cash reserves from which they can weather this storm rather than asking tax payers for a bailout. In point of fact buybacks do accrue to the management in a very VERY meaningful way because by and large their comp is tied to share price - trust me I design exec comp packages for a living and have consulted senior gov’t folks on this, including some you see on TV on the daily, maybe on the debate stage. Buybacks have been a big BIG source of indirect increases in senior exec comp. Tldr: airlines have almost no incentive to save for rainy days. They want to make profits and they know there is a good chance uncle Sam will buy them out. And let's be real, lots of people who get into high leadership positions are more delusional than average. Tail risks live in their blind spot. On pt 3, hen where did the money for the share buy back come from? Airlines literally asked for interest free loans according to WSJ I think the question is how long would they have to pay nothing to shareholders to have enough cash reserves to sustain a huge collapse in demand like this, and would investors still be interested in that sorta stock? Like if we mandated all airlines pay nothing to shareholders until they reach cash reserves of 8 months of revenue, would they still exist? Be able to borrow money? Knee jerk reaction is no but maybe some compromise workable. 80%-95% executive compensation comes from stocks. so buybacks is the first thing they do to boost their own income. . They’ve treated us like cattle for years while making billions. No tears here, they can sell some stock. Because of right-wing propaganda and all the idiots that suck in the abortion/gonna take my guns away/socialism is bad every 2 years......hell, these rePigs say Nazi is good and these fools raise their arms!!! I expect it to work like this: I really don't think that all of the airlines are going out of business. I think that they've done some things with their profits and their structuring that aren't exactly the best and the brightest things to have done. I believe that some airlines will survive this but others won't. Those airlines, in what I'm proposing, will make a lot of money on international flights and long distance (AKA across the USA flights) while other trips could be done on the high-speed rail. IMHO, the only reason we don't invest money into Amtrak in this way is because the airlines are such a huge industry and have such a massive, far-reaching lobby (to the point of being a large and vocal part of the FAA and contributing a ton to all sorts of congressional candidates and probably presidential ones too). So basically what I'm saying bottom line is: no bailouts. Instead, fund tf out of Amtrak making it an efficient, modern high-speed rail system, and as for the airlines, let the strong survive, trim the fat, and make very good money on coast-to-coast flights, mid-range flights for travelers that just have to get there in a hurry and thus are willing to pay up for that speed, and international flights. Well atleast what it’s currently at. Believe it or not, airlines have saved billions. Delta just paid their employees over $1.5 billion in profit sharing. This crisis is much worse for the airlines than people realize. It is dramatically worse than 9/11. It's not only about saving money. The smaller airlines just don't have the infrastructure or expertise to run an international airline. The logistics really does take decades of experience. Except no one is going to be doing it better. You will have a loss of service and ticket prices will go up 10 times from the remaining airlines just because of supply and demand. The economy will shrink further. [deleted] ""Let the markets decide"". Err, not right now though; give us money. Socialism for the rich, rugged individualism for the poor. - MLK What happens to puts against an airline if they were to declare bankruptcy “Gimme money” -Mona Lisa Saperstein -American Corporations Most people don't have enough in savings in survive a disaster laying only two weeks, essentially most Americans are two weeks out from homelessness *Wall street* hold my beer. This logic is kind of lazy. We have a problem that is inherently collective (a plague) that disproportionately impacts certain industries that had nothing to do with the creation of the problem. There's no moral hazard here. This is very much unlike the situation in 2008 where the banking system created a problem and was bailed out (it paid back TARP with interest but whatever) Also, this argument about buybacks is puzzling. The alternative would have been spending that free cash flow on expansion, which would have resulted in a worse outcome here. The government is not the fed that’s the whole idea socialism is bad unless your a giant corporation or a farmer I can feel it trickling all over me. FYI a ton of Wall Street is Democrat... Airlines aren't Wall Street. Still doesnt change the fact that socialism is bad. Haha, don’t make me laugh at how stupid you are....how are you involving Wall Street when it’s the airlines who are requiring funding? ? What Its part of the job but just like personal finance it's also important to build a rainy day fund to be able to outlast unexpected disruptions. No one is saying that stock buybacks are unacceptable but putting almost 100% of free cash into rewarding current stockholders is grossly irresponsible. Tldr; if the business goes under shareholders lose 100% of their investment so it's probably worth keeping some cash on hand to outlast disruptions even if all you care about are your shareholders Privatize the profits, socialize the losses. Clearly it doesn’t make sense from a corporate standpoint to stack cash for a potential once in a century event, but maybe this is letting us know that tax rates are too low. If bailing out airlines is part of the government’s responsibility, then the shareholders need to pay up for that protection. I remember that Bill Gates had been quoted saying that in the earlier years of Microsoft he wanted to have enough cash on hand for the company to run like it is for a full year with no money coming in. That's not a bad idea.. Corporations are expected to be as accountable as a teenager, it’s a fucking joke. As long as they make the share holder happy, then they’re being accountable. The shareholder is more important then the environment, customers, employees, and public, even though without shareholders wouldn’t without the environment, customers, employees, and the public. Incredible. Keeping the business healthy is their job. The mental disease of profit before everything else needs to die. https://www.reddit.com/r/Economics/comments/fkofzs/for_years_wall_street_spent_more_on_buybacks_and/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf As a shareholder, I would have wanted them to keep a rainy day fund for *exactly* these kinds of circumstances. They should have kept more cash on hand to ride out a few week of downturn. Not all of it of course but they should not be in need of a bailout so damn fast. Your approach is short term. Business should be in it for the long term. If these companies had less debt on the balance sheet this virus situation would be much more manageable. That money could have been invested in liquid investments or to pay down debt. This is the problem with a private public company. They want to privatize the earning. But socialize the losses. https://www.reddit.com/r/Economics/comments/fkofzs/for_years_wall_street_spent_more_on_buybacks_and/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf You lack an understanding of the structural challenges of the airline industry. Airlines notoriously go bankrupt on a somewhat regular basis because of the industry’s construct. Let me explain 1) airlines are extremely capital intensive. Airlines need to fly aircraft worth tens of millions of dollars each. It takes a ton of debt / financing to purchase these aircraft, so the industry is generally highly leveraged which makes it prone to bankruptcy. Buying aircraft in all cash is very difficult due to the magnitude of fleet sizes and the fact that without debt, airlines can’t price their product competitively enough to win routes 2) airlines are extremely price competitive. Because the Upfront cost of the aircraft is your biggest expense, airlines focus on getting as many passengers on each flight as they can to leverage that fixed cost. The incremental cost of an additional passenger is very low, while the incremental profit very high. However, all airlines know this so they compete aggressively among each other to secure passengers. This competition is why airlines fares are so close on identical routes. It also means airlines compete away most of the profits in trying to offer customers the lowest prices possible. Great for customers, but bad for airline margins. 3) due to leverage and high fixed aircraft costs, airlines need to hit high passenger capacity to remain solvent. Once you have <80% capacity on your flights, you begin to lose money on those flights. Due to consumer tendencies, situations often arise where people cease flying due to health risks, safety risks, terrorism, or other events outside of airlines’ control. When demand drops by even 15-20%, airlines have big problems. But these events can see 80% declines in passengers - which is what is happening now. No business on earth is prepared for such an intense decline in customers, especially not a business like airlines which have very high fixed aircraft costs you can’t get rid of. So you see due to the unique nature of the industry, black swan events can lead to mass bankruptcies at no fault of the airlines themselves. Hence the industry often goes through periods of heavy bankruptcy which can disrupt critical air travel. Seeing as how affordable air travel is something most us citizens rely on, the government deems it in their interest to intervene and maintain air travel in such times of stress Privatized gains and socialized losses Aren’t they given loans not free cash tho? They have to pay back what they were given. I believe the US govt in the long run made money from the auto bailout okay, but that is not socialism. and the ""community"" doesn't benefit from nationalism, as seen over and over again the govt acting as principal in industry is a value destroying enterprise. All for the govt dealing with this crisis by putting money directly in the hands of folks. Nothing about that would be socialism... that's actually a very capitalist friendly approach to this crisis. As for the airlines, they likely a dramatic bailout or else they fail. Failing doesn't help anyone. no reason to necessarily save the current shareholders, but lets not pretend airlines did anything wrong here... Airlines have airplanes that they can put up as collateral to cover the loan. If you put up your house or car as collateral you will have an easy time getting a loan as well. Well, no. Even a 0% interest rate loan is not free money. You don't need to pay that money back if its free money. Ok. But there's a big difference between giving away money and a loan. Who would you prefer that they go out of business and take all those jobs and part of the industry down with them? It's not like the mortgage crisis where you could argue that the banks contributed to the problem. In this case they really are just victims of an unprecedented circumstance. It’s still not “free money” since it has to be paid back. This is a key distinction that needs to be made since the vast majority of Redditors literally believe money is being handed out with no strings attached. The point about the effective interest rate being less than inflation is a good one, however. Even though it's completely inaccurate, I think a 0.6% return is pretty damn good considering that TARP saved nearly 10 million jobs. Not to mention saving the GDP from completely atrophying. National Review is also extremely biased and that article is outdated. There are still outstanding investments. https://www.americanbanker.com/opinion/tarp-was-not-a-bailout-and-the-governments-profit-was-huge https://projects.propublica.org/bailout/ This article is just one of several very dishonest pieces of 'journalism' on TARP. 1. The banks repaid all their loans. The government made probably $25 B not including AIG or a 10% absolute rate of return. 2. The problem w/ TARP (if any) is that Barack Obama came into office, saw this pile of money sitting there and then morphed TARP from a bank bailout into an auto bailout. The government lost money on GM & Chrysler. 3. There were also $30+ B in giveaways for the housing industry for various programs. Again, it was just given away to people because they raided the TARP program. TARP under its original intention (to bailout the banks) was almost a 100% slam dunk success. The bitching that goes on about the program and its 'lack of returns' is really because it was morphed into something else 'because we have money to help people'. And what that stupid article doesn't talk about is the losses avoided by the economy for having taken action. If we didn't backstop the banks and they all went down like dominoes, then the cost to the entire economy would have been outrageously punitive to everyone due to their interconnected nature and counterparty risk involved. And PS: I think every airline CEO/CFO who accepts a bailout should be immediately fired as a condition of accepting it and all the board should be gone. There should be an enormous pound of flesh extracted for the taxpayer. I don't like bailouts at all. But the major banks and bank runs are different, I think. I personally think Hank Paulson is a hero. I wish he were running things right now, TBH. If we bailout student loans like we did big banks in 2008, it will just be a loan for students to pay back their existing loans. It's hardly a hand-out and, in a way, having government backed student loans was already a bailout. They could totally make college interest rates much lower in the form of a bailout but we still have to pay the loans back. That is the equivalent to what is happening with the airlines. I'm also totally fine with them doing that to student loans. It wasn’t a risky decision. If “global travel halt due to spread of virus” was on a list of possible risk factors it was on the last page in an addendum. Share buy backs are possibly the least risky thing and everyone would have called them fucking morons for sitting on piles of cash. Companies are not banks. They don’t need piles of cash. They should not have piles of cash. Companies exist to make money for investors/owners. Buying back shares delivers value to the owners/investors. They did exactly what they were supposed to do. Hoarding this cash wouldn’t have seen them through this period of time anyway. They would have had to have been hoarding cash since the last economic meltdown 12 years ago for it to have made a difference. No. A payment with no expectation of it ever being paid back is a handout. Like the Government giving everyone $1,000, for example. That’s a handout. And who said it would be zero interest? The terms aren’t agreed. With the auto bailout, the Government was given a share of ownership of the company in lieu of interest, which is subsequently sold at a profit, returning significantly more money to the treasury than was paid out. so·cial·ism /ˈsōSHəˌlizəm/ Learn to pronounce noun a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole. Who is going to provide bankruptcy financing to an airline amid this uncertainty?? https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2012/oct/25/barack-obama/barack-obama-says-banks-paid-back-all-federal-bail/ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubled_Asset_Relief_Program Fannie Mae as well is profit to the gov Ehh, more like they were Henry Paulson and Ben Bernanke's bailouts. Ehh you have to give Obama a lot of credit there, he avoided falling for the generic populist pit trap, especially as McCain was threatening to do the same himself on the campaign trail I'm missing what point? The US gov't got more money back from its baitouts than it put in... and it saved the economy and employment levels from risk of much further downside. Companies failing does not help workers or anyone else. So what happens when those jobs are gone? Who is going to take over for these giant companies? No one. It took Musk billions and years of non profits to have a somewhat stable company. And it was no guarantee they were gonna make it. They had many turning points that they could have failed and musk managed to lead time through. Losing these companies hurts everyone 1k each would do my little family nicely but only because I’m a panicky bitch and I’ve been swearing up and down something to this effect would happen, making us live on a shoe string budget as practice. I made my husband agree to living in a way smaller house than we could “afford” at the time and thank dog I did because I got laid off two years ago, six months after buying the house. Our mortgage is only $800 but everyone else in my family is looking at mortgages of over 1.5-2k. No doubt. Especially given the size of American mortgage and other consumer debt markets. It would have consequences all over the world. Spend tax money on a crisis or leave at least 600,000 and up to 2,000,000 Americans to die and many more left homeless or otherwise in financial ruin. Hmmm, tough choice there. Yeah and those people you care about work for these airline companies. > No business could prepare for this. No business with record profits for a decade should be on the brink of collapse with a bad quarter. And it hasn't even been an entire quarter yet. The airline industry has horrifically mismanaged their position for the better part of 10 years. Owners == shareholders. If they need a bailout, they should just be nationalised / bought by the government through a bankruptcy where existing shareholders are wiped. The government can spin them back out when things settle down. And FNMA / FHLMC shareholders should also go to zero, but instead we're still arguing about whether to pay them for failure: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/regulator-says-government-will-wipe-out-fannie-mae-and-freddie-mac-shareholders-if-needed-2019-10-22 Investors are compensated for taking risk. If you want a government backing, buy Treasury bonds. Enough of this heads I win, tails you lose socialism for corporations. It destroys capitalism. TOo bAd YoU MadE a BaD INvesMEnT Not sure why downvoted. Seems to be a valid point from the perspective of someone who is just trying to play it straight. unless the cost of multiple supplies providing that service is excessive eg utilities, perhaps airlines should be utilities, we dont have competing road companys, or multiple competing subway companies Then why not let carriers from other countries fly domestic flights? I don’t fly that much so yeah, I am. Let’s not act like they weren’t making billions of dollars already by making anti-consumer decisions. Maybe I’m crazy thinking we could have better service and they could still be making hundreds of millions of dollars instead. There’s definitely a middle ground that could be met between us getting screwed with fees and them running a luxury charity. We all need some levity during times like these :) The industry is competitive and they run on incredibly thin margins. The costs are also enormous, such as fuel and labor. Running planes empty is not like a cafe - the costs add up very quickly. It's not half by the way, airlines are cutting capacity by 90%. No business keeps a contingency fund that large, and it's especially damaging for airlines with enormous running costs. Ryanair for example makes more on the snack cart than it does from ticket sales. It's basically a giant flying canteen. Airlines run on thin margin and travel isn't popular rn. Also there's a difference between planning for a contingency and the worst crash in 30 years You have more financial sense than the management of these companies. Also, low interest rates for the past decade has caused corporate leverage to go up. Historically, it's not obscenely high given the interest rates. These companies thought borrowing at low rates shouldn't be a problem. Not only that they borrowed money to pay back investors by buying their own stocks and paying dividends. And no one could have predicted the coronavirus. They run on paper thin margins under 10% In addition to what others have said, the standard has been set: airlines know they're too big/important to fail. They don't have to consider risk the same way other businesses do. Legacy airlines (AA, United, Delta) have zero contingency plans for anything. For example, just look at how many people are stuck at Hartsfield for days after Atlanta gets an inch of snow. These airlines' financial contingency plans are no better, which is why they're basically out of money after about a week and a half of disruption. Fed is independent and firing Powell is next to impossible without pissing off the finance lobby. New chair would need congressional approval so Larry Kudlow types wouldn't have a chance. If Trump wants to get reelected then he should have been planning for this weeks ago. He needs to come out in support of free testing and free treatment at the very least. If he were to help the working class then he can actually claim victory and win the election. But this isn't about winning reelection. Follow his campaign finance sources and you will understand that this is political favors being given out. The day after crude oil price collapse, Trump came in full support of bailing out energy industry. Why? Harold Hamm is one of the biggest donors to his campaign. Harold Hamm lost a big chunk of his net worth in a single day. Wynn Resorts news just came out that they want a bailout from the US government. Why? Do you know that Wynn Resorts gets most of its revenue from China? But Wynn Resorts is a big Trump donor. Same thing with hotel industry, they are all big donors to Trump. Follow the money. Great mentality. Keep it up. Don’t believe everyone on Reddit’s advice as much of it will be completely wrong but read them all and see what happens. Some will be correct some won’t and build off of that. Hear what everyone has to say but decide for yourself what ended up being true in the end and remember it. You’re in this game for the long run and you’ve got plenty of time to learn. Wasnt very high though and it was ""recommended""? But didn’t that just go away when the Fed dropped interest rates to zero? I hate both. Delta, United and American all have horrible service and treat their customers like garbage bc they can do anything to us at airports and we have no power. Now who’s laughing??? I wasn’t attempting to imply you made seem like the end of the world. However I vehemently disagree with nationalizing the industry. Similarly to the 2008 crisis, the corporate buybacks are chickens coming home to roost and the best thing is to allow companies to fail and for executives to lose their jobs so we can look back and see the consequences of these bad decisions. Plane travel will still continue because there are other companies and individuals who will see an opportunity to profit and form new companies or smaller companies can expand. Spirit Airlines is a placeholder name not a specific example. Indeed, history shows us that airline bailouts never save any jobs (see 9/11, Pan Am, etc). All they do is keep management from losing too much, and therefore don't make the hard choices to make for more sound financial footing going forward. I never said bail them out. I said they are not selling because they would lose money on the investment. [deleted] 9% is terrible margins for a cyclical capital intensive business. That means that you can lose 10% of revenue and you are losing money, or an 11% unexpected increase in costs could cause you to lose money. Really small margin of error Absolutely right but that’s also value that’s accruing you shareholders. The comment I was replying to seemed to be under the mistaken assumption that management was somehow paying themselves directly rather than doing it for the benefit of all shareholders which they are a part of (“buying back their stock from shareholders”). Define rainy day. Either this is a normal market down turn and the airlines were dumb and over leveraged ( which I agree, they don’t deserve a bailout ). Or this a a serious pandemic, where travel and person to person contact has been strongly discouraged by every major government, to the point where police enforced quarantines are not out of the realm of possibility. Pick one. To suggest the airlines, and all other major companies/industries should have been planning for this “rainy day” is unrealistic. Debating the validity of a bailout, yes that’s fair, but let’s not casually dismiss the severity of the pandemic. Either it’s a market downturn or a Black Swan, you can’t have it both ways. You would have to regulate them Like banks with stringent capital requirements to weather major economic disruptions. It could be done, but your fares would also go way up in response because that capital is expensive and margins are already very thin. Hire the folks who worked for the big airlines that you just bought Thank you, I am amish and have a hard time understanding things like ""politics"" and ""airplanes"" so this comment really helped me. If a major airline goes bankrupt. It made shitty business decisions. Then the government steps in to save it and the economy and the airline learns nothing from its mistakes. Rinse and repeat. “If a company goes bankrupt and you have purchased put options, you will earn the maximum profit possible from your position”. The issue is whether or not the seller of the puts isn’t going to be bankrupted themselves They are worth a lot. You‘re shit out of luck Puts are paid out at maximum value You get the maximum profit, but good luck betting against the fed. brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrt(prints free money) look they have money now I believe that if the stock gets delisted underlying contracts are also null and void.. But need to double check We buy it cheap and nationalize it. “Money please!” There is clear Moral Hazard when executive compensation is directly correlated to stock prices. Buying back stocks and inflating the market’s to unsustained level for the sake of personal enrichment is textbook Moral Harzard. The Coronavirus is the perfect scapegoat for a recession that was inevitable, and it will also I’ll serve to mask the underlying greed. Business as usual; Privatizing Profits, Socializing Losses. What a racket. Get out of here with your logic and basic macroeconomics knowledge. You are not welcome. /s Or they could have put the money aside for when business is in the shitter. Service their debt. These buybacks were financed by cheap credit and now that it is drying up they are fucked. [deleted] Yeah, but if you can convince Congress that you are an essential industry that is too big to fail, then your business is protected by the faith and credit of the American taxpayer. [deleted] >Its part of the job but just like personal finance it's also important to build a rainy day fund to be able to outlast unexpected disruptions. In their defense, this is probably a once in a 100 year event and almost no business has like 6 months of operating expenses in cash. I think a reasonable response is to loan them the money such that they pay interest equal to those buybacks, plus a safety margin if amortized over 10 years. The government is basically forcing their business to close, it's probably not fair to wash the shareholders completely. once a century? The 2001 terror attacks where 19yrs ago, the mortgage crash was12 years ago. You save money when times are good to make it through the hard times. We have something like this more like once a decade, not once a century. This could be true but then it’s not the airline execs fault. This doesn’t apply to airlines since they used FCF... Few weeks? There’s been flight suspensions since January on some of their most profitable routes. I just checked. If American Airlines kept all their buyback money and invested in Tbills, so basically nothing, they’d have enough to last 4 months with no income. That’s 9 years or not giving shareholder anything and parking the cash.... [deleted] So as someone who occasionally invests in airline stocks, I get that they tend to be cyclical. But shouldn’t the airlines themselves also be aware of that and prepare for the cycles of good and bad times instead of using extra cash to do share buy backs which don’t seem to do anything to help them in a uncontrollable down cycle? Isn’t that what all responsible businesses do? I agree and know everything you have outlined. It's hardly ""affordable air travel"" but that's besides the point. So, how were they able to buyback shares? Why not create a stronger balance sheet? They had 10 years to put themselves in a better financial situation. Shouldn't investors bear some of the losses? Let Buffet lose 90% before giving Delta any money. Bear Stearns lost more than 90% of equity before being bought out by JP Morgan. Also, I am not saying don't bail them out. I am saying wait until few of them actually go bankrupt. The government can provide assistance in bankruptcy courts as well. It's not like these airlines are paying most of their workers right now. And their are far bigger industries to worry about than the airline industry. And make sure the loan from taxpayers are somewhat profitable for taxpayers. [edit] also find market solutions before giving out free money to them. work with large investors, private equity firms, banks to lend/invest in these airlines before using taxpayer money. [deleted] This is exactly what I wanted to say but was too lazy to type. So many people on reddit want to jump on the hate bandwagon. Thanks for sharing, hopefully more people read your comment! I just want to say this is one of the most intelligent responses to this I have seen. I think the only thing you are missing is to point out that in most other large countries, the governments subsidize airlines already. To add to this. The government is going to get involved in the airline business one way or another. If an airline is allowed to fail this will give power to existing airlines potentially creating an increased monopolistic industry. And since the barrier to entry is so high it is probable that the SEC gets involved at some point regardless And this in a nutshell kids, is why airline deregulation by Reagan in the 1980s was a shitshow and we've literally been paying for it ever since. Up until the 1970s, most airlines had to explicitly request and be granted permission to fly a specific route, and the government limited the number of airlines that could service any one route, which guaranteed they could pretty much all be safely profitable, with only limited competition outside the most profitable and heavily trafficked routes. Did it result in lower Airline fares? Maybe, but the boom and bust cycles, bankruptcies and mergers and constant race to the lowest common denominator service- paying extra for seats wide enough to sit in and legroom that won't cause blood clots and paralysis, paying even for carry on luggage in some cases; this litany of fuckups have been more disruptive and damaging than the supposed benefits. Then why spend 96% of free cash flow on buybacks?? Especially with margin so tight. Sounds like you're making a case for nationalizing the entire industry. Wall of text, but great answer. Should be at the top How did those boots taste? Is it a black swan event if it happens routinely every few years? Not a word about gluttonous share buybacks... As with any investment, these type of risks should be understood and, upon the creditors loss of principal, debt should be wiped through sale of collateral. Unfortunate events seem to affect some and not others. Most European airlines will be nationalized. I don't blame airlines. This was unpredictable but actual humans need to come first. Just saying that investors need to take a massive haircut before providing a bailout. I don't actually want government to give out $1,000 to each individual. I want government to provide free testing and free treatment, especially for the uninsured. I want government to suspend loan payments, utility bills, and rent. Why? Because the people are going to die and be in debt for a long time. Not the corporations. Really? Any old person can get a zero interest loan totaling three years of expenses? Sounds to me like airplanes make shit collateral these days. Apparently it's difficult to turn a profit with a fleet of them. Seriously, you gonna argue on technicality? [deleted] Exactly. The important distinction is that that the money is being returned, regardless of profit being earned (which it was). Even still, EAR is impossible to calculate since some of the investments are still outstanding. The CAGR he provided is inaccurate and based on 5 year old data. Based on current data It would be closer to \~1.6%. It's free money if you aren't making a good rate of return on that loan. In a free market, those companies wouldn't be able to borrow at such low interest rates. In 2008, the government made 0.6% return. You think that is good return for the risks the taxpayers took. I don't want to waste time arguing but here's my only response. AIG returned $23.1 billion and they borrowed $141.8 billion total. They took about three years to pay it back (you can break it down for each at your own time and get a more accurate number). The rough estimate of CAGR is 5.16%. You think that is a good return for a bankrupt company with shit ton of debt? For comparison, Boeing 10-year notes (BBB rated) traded around 6.9% YTM, today. source: https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/R42953.html#_Toc496016999 As for the risk to the economy, well there are different ways to look at it. These companies, including AIG, increased the systematic risk. If it wasn't for the increased systematic risk then there wouldn't be any bailouts. If bailouts saved the economy then how come the wealth since 2008 has gone to top 1%? Since 2008, middle class holds less wealth than Top 1%. How is that saving the economy? How is it that real wages haven't risen in the last 50 years (source: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us-workers-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/)? How come companies are able to borrow at 1% interest rate while students have to pay 4%-6%? Where exactly do you see a ""better"" American economy? There are many other aspects to consider as well. The current situation (corporate debt bubble) is just the continuation of adding additional leverage into the system since 2008. Ask anyone who works in finance what they think is the biggest risk and they will all tell you that its corporate debt. Corporations have been borrowing at low interest rates and distributing it to the investors. Unless Congress enacts laws forbidding or regulating corporate distributions, this shit will continue. What that ""stupid"" article does talk about is how companies have used their cash flow to distribute to investors and now they expect a bailout. That's called not taking any responsibility for your own actions. Where is my dividend payout from the last 10 years? In fact, corporate tax rates have been cut. Consumers have lost bigly when it comes to airlines (increased fees, shorten seat sizes, less leg room, etc.). You expect any sympathy for any of these corporations? Simple answer is that the system is still trickle down economics. Fiscal policies are trickle down economics. Monetary policies are trickle down economics. At the end, it's the taxpayers left holding the bag. I, for one, would love to refinance my student loan to a sub 2% interest rate and then pocket the difference as my own little brass parachute. Of course it was a risky decision. If you decrease your free cash on the balance sheat for share buybacks you are inherently increasing the riskiness of your business. Was it a correct decision obviously depends on other factors and context, but it was inherently a decision to increase the companies risk. There's no way around it. a) Not knowing to prepare for Coronavirus pandemic in specific does not mean it is not possible to prepare for negative risks in general. b) Creating value for investors also encompasses not going bankrupt unnecessarily. Luckily, since the investors demanded it (owning a high risk - high yield company), they are going to pay for it, by the company going bankrupt and not receiving a bailout. c) Hoarding cash and having a reasonable buffer are not the same thing. It is possible that every single airline regardless of their financials is going to go bottoms up. It's possible. But I can bet your for a thousand bucks, that some airliners will manage to get through that crisis without needing state bailouts. Making your claim that it is an impossibility moot. Companies can only make money for their investors/owners if they continue to exist, therefore it’s a smart business decision to at least set aside some reserves during good times in case of a downturn or emergency event like the one we are experiencing now. You are basically saying companies should be Elbe to take on as much risk as possible and if something unforeseen happens, the public should keep them afloat. Not all corporations that were bailed out paid their debts though. GM and Chrysler surprisingly didn’t. Here is a tracker. https://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list Thanks, kind person! (That article reads like it was written by a chimp using a blender. It does sound positive though!) Desktop link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubled_Asset_Relief_Program *** ^^/r/HelperBot_ ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove. ^^Counter: ^^298411. [^^Found ^^a ^^bug?](https://reddit.com/message/compose/?to=swim1929&subject=Bug&message=https://reddit.com/r/finance/comments/fjxdp2/us_airlines_ask_for_bailout_as_they_spent_96_of/fkqmpqb/) **Troubled Asset Relief Program** The Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) is a program of the United States government to purchase toxic assets and equity from financial institutions to strengthen its financial sector that was passed by Congress and signed into law by Republican Party President George W. Bush on October 3, 2008. It was a component of the government's measures in 2008 to address the subprime mortgage crisis. The TARP program originally authorized expenditures of $700 billion. The Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008 created the TARP program. *** ^([ )[^(PM)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=kittens_from_space)^( | )[^(Exclude me)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiTextBot&message=Excludeme&subject=Excludeme)^( | )[^(Exclude from subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/finance/about/banned)^( | )[^(FAQ / Information)](https://np.reddit.com/r/WikiTextBot/wiki/index)^( | )[^(Source)](https://github.com/kittenswolf/WikiTextBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v0.28) Oh how perfectly it is named. Executive knowingly led trouble asset relief program. Hey tax payers, yall got some more of that relief fund? Meanwhile helping a single mom with three kids is socialism. God fuck this country. It’s just a common republican talking point that the bailout was Obama it and it was bad. I just hate seeing the narrative always changing to what my guy does is good but if it was bad it’s the other guy and vice versa. I get that it's the pgramtic choice. But doesn't it also incentivize big corporations to keep fucking up? Keep taking advantage of their customers? Keep taking unreasonable risks? It ""breaks"" capitalism if the market can't regulate itself. Musk was inventing something new. Airplanes are not a new invention. Apples to oranges. It's called capitalism. Business that can't innovate fail. New ones replace them. It happens all the time. The only ones that want you to believe they are to big to fail is the entrenched corporation that have the most to lose. Praise be to Dog. Careful those other family members dont come asking for money. Not saying you're family is like that, but I've seen time and again when high spenders hit a tough spot, its somehow their frugal family members responsibility to help them out. So you understand your idea proposed is worse than the idea you're slamming? This is more than a “bad quarter”. This is literally 0 sales for one quarter. Extremely different circumstance. How is giving them a loan for cash rn socialism? Not sure what you mean since I'm only familiar w the USA, but are you saying companies like delta based in the USA can't offer domestic in Europe? That sounds like a EU issue. That would be akin to a company bringing in foreign labor to work at a factory every day, and then sending them back to their country after work. Imagine GM letting people walk across to border from Mexico or Canada every day to work, while not employing Americans. Almost every airline globally is in the shitter right now He seems to be laughing at the wrong shit though Or a food truck if you will. Cost of purchasing or leasing aircraft, aircraft maintenance cost, labour costs from maintenance, flight crews, agents etc. (Wages, specialized training), fuel, landing/gate fees, aircraft services costs, airport slot purchases, airspace fees when flying over other countries. The list goes on and on ad on. It cost 10s of millions of dollars PER DAY to run a large airline. On a note of it being competitive, there’s a balancing act they play of increasing capacity and driving down costs to get more people flying. But then tickets get so cheap a lot of passengers are just flying frivolously so when something like this happens almost their entire ridership evaporates. Low cost carriers are going to be so fucking screwed by this. No buybacks and they should issue equity first The margins aren’t that thin if they were able to use massive amounts of cash to buy back stock. Don't get me wrong, Covid-19 has thrown a wrench into the entire economy. It's impossible to predict what'll happen next, and no one could have predicted the damage it's already done. On one hand, though, I get that companies that operate on predictable revenue projection models and offer services that are quite honestly a necessity in our lives (like flying) it's hard to imagine that in a blink they could be obliterated financially. No business keeps enough cash to cover a 90% drop in revenue. This is completely unprecedented, travel wasn't even this low after 911 (30% drop). [deleted] And don't assume non-financial guys are dumb, it's just we chose it to be not our primary career. I don't know people in every airline but I do know that all of them are hurting. If the big ones get bailed out and the smaller ones dont then the smaller ones may be dead. The answer is to not expect the economy to bail out a business who has been taking their money and giving it to shareholders. It should be that the shareholders need to bare the burden of the company, if they can’t let them go bankrupt, their assets will be acquired and hopefully the next entity will be more responsible. Am any people. The ceos make dozens of millions. Just be responsible. [deleted] Ah ok, well, yes, it most directly impacts shareholders. That is why we see Elliott buying a stake in SoftBank and immediately forcing buybacks. Yeah that was my thought, basically we are accepting systemic BK risk in exchange for affordable flights, probably can’t have both. And what of the infrastructure? It's not easily transferable. It's a large interconnected system. I think you amish are a bunch of religious whackos, but I'd bet you're a damn sight more prepared for 'rough times' than apparently the entire corporate sector is What is there to learn? Blow your money and Uncle Sam will give you more. Also, how is that a mistake? > The issue is whether or not the seller of the puts isn’t going to be bankrupted themselves (Exchange traded) options are guaranteed by a clearinghouse. Wait, so you WANT to put a company going bankrupt? Why is that an issue? For the holder of the put 1. Borrow shares of AA 2. Immediately sell borrowed shares 3. Price drops 4. Price drops 5a. Expiration of puts borrowed shares need to be returned and price of company is lower than when you borrowed. Put seller receives shares back at lower amount. Put buyer keeps delta. 5b. Company goes bankrupt or dies and shares no longer exist you have ridden it down to $0.00 and owe nothing. Why does it matter if the put seller goes bankrupt? They don’t owe anyone anything. Who is going bankrupt for sure with cheap option premiums then 💀 Great, another guy who doesn't understand what buybacks are for It's one of my favorite journalistic tropes, excoriating buybacks, because it immediately stigmatizes the guy as a hack Yeah, as a shareholder, I love it when companies hold cash on my behalf in anticipation of a once-a-century global plague (that shouldn't have happened) If I want to do that, I can leave cash in my brokerage account or bonds (or any other strictly superior use) If you were smart, you would have said ""pay down debt"" but you didn't because you're talking out of your league So you service your cheap debt instead of your expensive equity to plan for a virus sweeping the world? Plenty of Dems have picked up on parts of Sander’s platform, though. More importantly, when you look at the democratic socialist parties in the Scandinavian states, the key tenant of their socialism is federal level collective bargaining by what are essentially massive unions. Guys like Joe have been some of the best voices in the country for unions for over 50 years. You guys think Sanders would vote against airline stimulus? I don't understand. Let them fail. Then take over their assets and start a new company. The airlines should have zero leverage in this. Unless they are personally buddies with the government. In which case we're talking about corruption on Russian levels. > More is not a financially smart choice, less isn't either. Because spending = growth. That's not a CEO's personal mistake that's a system we have called capitalism. That's why we're in this mess to begin with, the current system is flawed in a catastrophic manner. The status quo is too high risk to succeed long term. Once in a hundred years pandemic. Once in a hundred years terrorist attack on a major city. Once in a hundred years volcano disrupting air traffic. The issue is there’s many types of disaster and the combined risk is significantly higher than once in a hundred years. ""once in a 100 year event"" What are you talking about once in a century? These disruptions happen almost every decade. That's why responsible businesses take out insurance policies against black swan events. It is though, in part... ""death by a thousand cuts"" According to this, in 2018 profits were 12 billion, but operating expenses were 180 billion. That means they would need to save over 8 years of profit into cash for a six month fund, with no reinvestment in the company https://www.bts.gov/newsroom/2018-annual-and-4th-quarter-us-airline-financial-data [deleted] One of the detrimental issues the larger airlines of this country face is that they make a large amount of their money selling business class international seats, and high end business class seats. the statistic is crazy, something like 90% of their profit margin comes from this small group. With prices plummeting on those high end seats, and upgrade availability, putting those planes in the air is actually costing the company money. at exponential rates. ​ More importantly I hope you pull through this virus, its the small business owner that is going to get decimated in this, which is sad, hopefully you have some sort of virtual aspect of your business, but not everything can be virtual Too much expansion? Operating cost probably increased. This is true the airlines like all corporations we're living high on the hog, but this is the classic ""black swan"" event and really no way to accommodate being told not to fly international routes for a month. It's out of the scope of the business model. No business that is capital intensive can afford a sustained period of low or no business. Yea but why not be a little more lax about the bad times coming when you know a bail out is practically guaranteed? They barely have competition so they jack the prices. Billions made off of baggage “fees” now. Pay millions to refurb old planes and smoosh more seats in. Claim it all in the name of KeEpiNg PRiCeS LoW. Bullshit. The whole system is rigged like a funnel to the top with their risk managed by bailouts but the little guy gets a dick to his donut hole for not pulling his boot straps up to his fucking eyelids. Buying back stocks does help. Gives more control to the companies, and allows them to release more stock for capital in the future. Too much stocks out, mean more dividends paid out, and makes it had to steer the interest of the company Should investors bear some losses? Absolutely! And they have (and should continue to!). The bailout isn’t going to come for free, the government is either going to take ownership stakes in the airlines or it will loan them money which the airlines will have to pay back. Both negatively impact equity value of shareholders. I wouldn’t wait until bankruptcy filing when it is inevitable and could cause huge disruptions. As far as industries go, it’s pretty critical. There is no financing backstop for the airlines - they’re way too big for private equity money, and the banks are all facing liquidity crunches because companies are pulling down on their revolvers. Not to mention there’s no private appetite to lend to an industry in crisis. It has to be the government. ^ Fucking dead on. Exactly this. It's one of the reasons I'm not a fan of the fact the airlines are getting bailed out. Yes, airlines are very intertwined in our economy, but look at banks in 2008. They laid off thousands of ""lower level"" employees, got billions in bailout money and paid their executives big bonuses (who made out like bandits). I have a feeling the same will happen with the airline industry. How about a bailout for ""Main Street"" America? Exactly. I don't know the exact ratio, but I've heard that the final airfare to consumers is only 60% airline revenue. The remaining 40% is government collected. The gov't is heavily intertwined with the airline industry, and is dependent on these fees/taxes. If anyone has some color on the exact ratio, would love to learn more. But the point being is that consumers aren't exposed to all of the risk here, gov'ts are also highly exposed. I'm not saying risk is distributed fairly, but it's not nearly as one-sided as folks are making it seem. Lastly, investors do NOT like when companies save cash for a possible black swan. If you're hoarding cash on your balance sheet like a gremlin when times are good, investors have a tendency to pressure you to put that cash to work, or they will find someone who will cave into their demands. Sometimes it seems like a lose-lose; either hoard cash and have investors hate your stock, or piss cash away and pay the price during a black swan. actually nationalizing airlines will lead to shit airline service for a decade. you can dilute shareholders without the govt taking a principal role, let alone actually letting all these airlines fail. it is not socialism to provide distressed funding to these companies. and hopefully govt don't intend to run airlines even if they end with significant equity stakes. I want the gov't to help folks out. Direct payments would be a great way to do it. Suspending payments to others just means that other now have a financial problem. deal with the problem at its root cause -- people not being able to go out and work. cover them lost wages (and business's burden of wages without work being done). European airlines are already nationalized. Yes. It’s called a home equity line of credit. that isn't a typicality, that is a massive distinction. Let say I lend you $1000, and charge you 5% interest. Okay, not I lend you $1000, and charge you no interst. Now, lets say i just give you $1000. Compare those results after 5yrs... [deleted] But even technically, you are still correct. Money that costs nothing is free. 0% interest means the money costs nothing. If someone gave you the keys to their house and said give it back when you are done living there, would you say you had to pay for the house? No, it's still free even if you don't own it in the end, you get to use it for no cost. That's called Free. It would put 500,000 workers on the street and no more air travel...what about all the people who travel for business (other countries would still have airliners) New Orleans and other cities just did a huge expansion on the airport, how is that going to be paid for when the airports are vacant. What about the banks holding the airliners debt, the hell with them, greedy bastards... Everything is related. It's the whole reason the banks got bailed out in 2008, because your pay check was about to not clear which would have sent us into mass histeria and a depression. Watch ""Panic: the untold truth of the 2008 financial crisis"" , a great documentary told by people involved in trying to fix the problem. If the airliners, cruise industry, and oil companies (as oil tanks) go belly up, we are screwed. These industries employee and buy from so many companies the ripple effect would be massive.... Anyway I think we will be fine in a few years and the government should make the bailout a low interest loan that is best for the American people. Well there’s also the “return” of saving the economy from total collapse. So yeah overall I would say it was a good move. Your numbers are correct but you are mixing the Fed and Treasury's balance sheets. Although I realize all profits ultimately go to the US Taxpayer. It's not the same, single entity. What I was talking about was the domino effect and LOSSES AVOIDED that don't show up in these figures. The punitive financial ruin that would have ensued from a total collapse of the banking system and the costs to the country for that. What you are talking about is increased systemic risk, which theoretically should have been diminished due to Dodd-Frank, new BIS rules for testing, etc. I don't discount that risk, but the financial system is different than the airlines. We won't be in a total gridlock as a society if all the airlines go bankrupt. We will if the banks go under. This other stuff about trickle down is true, but a half-truth. A lot of the top 1% in this country are not tied to the taxpayers or GDP of the US, but to the global economy. When P&G has 60% of their sales overseas, the CEO's salary is not a function of the US economy, it's a function of the global economy. And people look at Jeff Bezos or some rich guy who sits atop one of these global companies and complain about how his salary dwarfs that of some local factory worker, well they are tied to two different things. They are not really comparable in a sense. A lot of the levering up and distribution of cash is really just a reality of a slowing economy and maturing businesses. It's what they should be doing from an economic standpoint. The fact that they don't hedge themselves against tail risk, is another story. Sitting on a pile of cash is not the answer, it's hedging tail risk. I don't think there should be any bailout for the airlines except for loans with warrants and I've said as much. [https://www.reddit.com/r/finance/comments/fjxdp2/us\_airlines\_ask\_for\_bailout\_as\_they\_spent\_96\_of/fkvw4jy/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/finance/comments/fjxdp2/us_airlines_ask_for_bailout_as_they_spent_96_of/fkvw4jy/?context=3) Mine was already at 1.74 before the rate cuts so I'm interested to see how far it drops Where did I claim it was an impossibility? You are making a very stupid assumption. That they had no cash reserves at all. They probably did. A black swan event such as this is not forecastable. How do you plan for this? In that meeting you would be laughed at. Im only referring to the Banks. American Car Companies are deadweight I thought the Big 3 paid back their loans. You could, uh, go google search how much money the government made of TARP one can argue that well considered bail-outs during liquidity crises are as a general matter a good thing, while simultaneously arguing that overall social/economic policy in US needs to be reformed to benefit ordinary americans to a much greater extent. Reflexively arguing against these type of actions is no more enlightened than reflexively arguing against social programs. I mean the crisis definitely was a republican creation don’t get me wrong, Bush had 8 years on it. But yeah I think the fact that Obama didn’t politicize it especially given how it was right before the election is highly worthy of praise What’s the incentive for companies to save reserves if they government will bail them out when shit hits the fan? How did what is happening now result from these companies fucking up or fucking anyone? The American people have the most to lose. A single airline fails, fine, there are others. This is all of them My small business is Dog centric, force of habit. Praise be to Dog. It wasn't the whole quarter and regardless, they've had RECORD PROFITS FOR A DECADE! They shouldn't need a bailout. Then you bail them out with your money. I don’t pay taxes so rich executives can fill their pockets with government grants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_for_the_rich_and_capitalism_for_the_poor I think he’s saying the opposite. ie Lufthansa flights from Chicago to Miami. I could be wrong, but right now there are no foreign firms that are offering on a wide scale domestic internal flights in the US. Yeah that would be crazy. It's way easier to just move the plant to Mexico and save your new employees the walk. free movement of labor is crazy?! Or, you know, make them hire Americans like what actually happens when foreign companies move factories to the US. I will It's a finance sub, so rather than weak approximations you could just read some annual reports. Operating costs in 2018 for American airlines **41.8b**. Net income **1.4b**. Even if they saved every cent of profit over the last decade (12b according to the article, it lines up), paying nothing to their shareholders, they would only be able to **stay afloat for one quarter with no revenue.** Lol it never said anything about spending massive amounts of cash, it just gave it as a percentage of free cash flow. Stock buybacks are no worse than dividend payments, not sure why this sub is so partial to one. Come on, this is the whole thing about steady state planning. Didn't we learn this lesson 12 years go. There were books written about it. Maybe they were only read by ornithologists. [deleted] Every epidemiologist predicted this. It’s not like an asteroid hit Earth, which is also somewhat predictable. I think you are confusing Fed's recent action with what the Trump administration wants Republicans in Congress to do this week. Fed's actions are pretty warranted. Fed is helping to keep the financial markets stable. Not much wrong with what the Fed did so far. Fed pulled the trigger a little too fast but they would have had to sooner or later. Trump admin wants Congress to approve fiscal policy that would explicitly bailout certain industries. Don't confuse fiscal policy and monetary policy. Trump wants Congress to give these industries capital and probably at below market interest rates. These companies should have done better financial planning. *Big chunks on resorts and software on kittens* ♪ *Hotel industries and warm woolen mittens* ♪ *Campaign finance sources tied up with strings* ♪ *These are a few of my favorite things!* ♪ --- [sing it](https://youtu.be/kwN3LJdGyuU?t=20) / ^(reply 'info' to learn more about this bot (including fun stats!)^) So every other business saw an 80% drop in demand? I'm on reddit dude, I'm not really amish, just horsing around. Does that count for a hay joke? I dunno. “I think you Amish are a bunch of religious whackos.” But you couldn’t tell them why if they asked you, as we all found out from your next post, below. As long as you own an important cog in the machine bro Ford and GM constantly do this. [deleted] What if the clearinghouse goes bankrupt? Wasn’t that a close call in 2008 where counterpart risks went through the roof? Guess I was wrong, thanks for that - didn’t know it was guaranteed Yes, you’d want to buy a put, but if you were to short them your short would be valued at 0 Stop downvoting good learning questions people. Oh enlighten me, please bless me with your neoliberal wisdom. What esoteric function do stock buybacks serve, that you seemed to be privy to, oh wise one. You're probably right, but they were also in the same trouble ten years ago. If I was smart I would have cash to invest while the market is low. Oh yeah, I do. Also I have no debt and my house is paid off. God I'm so fucking stupid. This is false. There are zero democratic socialist countries in Scandinavia. Except these are essential corporations that 1) Can not be nationalized because we don't live in an authoritarian country where the government controls industry 2) cannot be sold to foreign parties as we cannot allow other countries to control our air travel 3) cannot be purchased by other domestic carriers because there is too much debt and that would be forming a monopoly. If you don't understand the need to keep domestic companies afloat because of their strategic nature, you are too dense to try and comment on the matter. [deleted] When was the last pandemic? Pretty sure it was 1918. I work for an insurance company. Most business interruption policies have exclusions for things like acts of war and communicable diseases. Insurance companies don't want that risk. It's too hard to model, and the severity when it happens is huge and concentrated. It's just not a product that's generally available. uh the post u did said operating expenses 169.8 billion with 187.5 billion operating revenue so i'm kind of confused about what your point is? they shouldn't even be flying right now. it's bullshit they are choosing to fly and we have to pay them back. all this talk about helping the stock market 1 trillion, helping airlines, cruise companies, etc, but where the fuck is helping the average person? what about the people who can't pay their rent because businesses aren't currently operating? all of it makes no sense. start the quarantine, stop the flights because they are just spreading the virus anyways and work on helping out the citizens. a ton of people are going to end up going bankrupt because of this virus. what about them? helping the people should be at the absolute forefront. But isn't that just a variant of ""should have planned better?"" Why aren't other businesses being bailed out as well? Actually, the SBA did announce disaster loans to small businesses, so I feel a bit better about these bailouts at least, as they're no longer a special case. Lol no, it's because they pocketed all the profit because they knew they would be bailed out. >This is true the airlines like all corporations we're living high on the hog, but this is the classic ""black swan"" event and really no way to accommodate being told not to fly international routes for a month. This is a horseshit answer, TBH. If you are 25 years old or haven't been around this industry a long time, then I can understand this viewpoint. But this is an industry that had: 1. A complete shutdown during 9/11 that nearly bankrupted them. 2. A near complete shutdown during the last SARS scare. If you are an airline CEO, CFO, or board member today and you don't understand that you need hedges on, business insurance risk for 3-standard deviation moves then you shouldn't have that operating position. I think it's ridiculous that LUV can trade the oil markets and book $500+ M in profits to subsidize their 'bags fly free' marketing program, but somehow these guys can't hedge themselves and have to come hat in hand to the taxpayer. It's not like this hasn't been in the news for 3 months. Why should the US Taxpayer back an equity holder from the risk they take? If the government doesn't get a pound of flesh here, that's absurd. They also think that if they don't go balls to the wall now then someone else will and they'll end up bankrupt. I don’t think this accurate. Control is not gained by stock buybacks. Boards run airlines not shareholders. Ive never heard of a hostile takeover of an airline before. Plus if the buy backs create an opportunity for the airline to raise more capital, why not just use that strategy now? The fact is that boards have been using buy backs to raise the share price and enrich themselves instead of strengthening the company in tangible ways. I say we let them die or get taken over by more healthy organizations. This is a great point to the people asking why they don't save for the D-Day. The CEO is responsible to his investors. Something that is starting to leak however is that , All the US Airlines have been giving paid leaves to their flight crews except Delta, which is actually shocking to me as I felt they would have been the most economical in this situation...Looking a little shady to me There are several international airlines that are nationalized which are fantastic. Or is it just another case of ""yea other countries can have social programs, but US government is too inept to replicate them""? Can you point me to a 0% Heloc? [deleted] How much did the interest free loan cost you? Nothing? Oh so it's FREE! If I got a 0% loan right now I’d save about 30-40k in interest. Being able to shrug off that .is what makes it free money, I’m getting the ability to cut expenses while still making the same payments I’m making now If you don't have to pay for the money (0% interest) then it is literally free money, sure you have to pay it back but you got to use it for free. Like if someone give you a car to use indefinitely but they want it back when you are done with it, wouldn't you say you have a free car? My company pays for my car, so I consider it free even though I don't own it myself. No but I see the sentiment. If there’s basically no interest and other repercussions it makes for bad business in the future. Fuck same thing with the bank bail outs. As I said elsewhere, the airline industry has 650,000 workers vs food & retail industry's 26,000,000. That's 40 times more workers. So why the airline industry first? > Hoarding this cash wouldn’t have seen them through this period of time anyway. They would have had to have been hoarding cash since the last economic meltdown 12 years ago for it to have made a difference. I take this as claiming that it's essentially impossible for airlines to ""hoard"" enough cash to get though this crisis. There are also banks on this list that didn’t pay back their debt. Yeah, and I can also google how man Reptilians are in the US government. Why don’t bail out the poor people? Norway classifies US as poorly developed Why didn’t the company fund for RnD or atleast in other forms of investment? Other stock buy back inflate their pocket. Can a poorly people knowingly go hroke and expect a bailout from government? Airlines knew the consequences of spending all cash but they could also assure themselves that government will them out. Who money are they using to bail out? Its my god damn hard earned money. They are using my hard earned dollars; they are using all the hardworking poor people tax dollars to bail them out. But I want to fund healthcare with my hard earned dollar then I am communist. Grow the fuck up. This would be true capitalism - companies being smart enough to know they need cash on hand to weather a storm. Just like how all people are told they should have three months’ salary saved in case something bad happens (cough cough corona virus). Yea that's exactly my point (not sure if you were disagreeing or just elaborating) [deleted] Other than the fact that that doesn't answer the question. The us airline industry collapsing doesn't just affect rich people, you know that right? Sure their portfolios tank, but they're not the ones getting laid off. They are banned by US law. AA and Delta have government monopolies and still need a bailout every decade. How long can you last on 10% revenue? That's what's happening to airlines right now. Right, but now think of your cash reserves x10,000 ore more likely x100,000 that’s the kind of cash you’d be looking at holding in an emergency/rainy day fund. There’s an opportunity coat of letting that money sit that not every company can stomach and still please investors. [deleted] Good bot? Many did, like restaurants, cafes, bars, shops, entertainment centers, cinemas, parks, etc. All of which hire more workers collectively than the airlines, and are just as essential to functioning of society. I didn't want to assume which religion you identified as And here I was, thinking you were logging in to reddit from a computer made entirely out of wood. On a mechanical keyboard, of course. >What idiots the airlines are for foolishly spending their cash on stock buybacks to artificially inflate their stock price instead of wisely maintaining an emergency reserve to ensure their future financial health. FIFY [deleted] >Nah they should have anticipated a worldwide pandemic when the US economy was at an all time high. Nah. They should have anticipated that they wouldn't be able to fly for 2 weeks some time in the future. But they spent the last 10 years doing stock buy backs insteading of making their business more sustainable. But don't worry about it. Bag daddy feds are there to bail them out no matter how irresponsible they are. [deleted] I work in Derivatives Clearing at a large Financial US Institution. If a counter party cannot meet its maintenance margin obligation, then the clearinghouse will enact its “collateral waterfall” protocols for additional liquidity: Initial Margin - > Individual Member Default Fund - > Pooled Member Default Fund -> Clearinghouse capital. It would have to be a massive position for the Clearinghouse to exhaust all capital and default themselves. Yah I remember hearing a buffet quote about 1987. ""Than the clearing house check never showed up..."" CBOE can always guarantee all trades Wait... If I short a stock, and its value goes to 0, e.g. it is now delisted. I would then be making the max profit possible per share wouldn’t I? Because when you short sell you borrow the shares and sell (credit to your account) and are then expected to buy them back at a later date.... So if a company delists, there are no longer any shares that I have to repay, and my profit is the entire credit I received at the beginning of the short sale. I see. Thank you for the clarification. Well no - if a stock goes to zero - it’ll probably stop trading or delist; you’d need to find someone who’d buy your puts and that party probably won’t exist if the above things are going on. You need it to stay afloat a little longer, sell, then run for the hills. Seriously I was wondering why that was going on They get rid of a company's most expensive liability (equity claimants on cash) and place cash in the hands of shareholders, who can in turn re-invest the proceeds into companies starved of capital. As opposed to the alternative of using that cash to fund expansions (which in this case would have been disastrous) Also what are you doing on this sub? You're not stupid; I'm the same way. But for companies I own stock in (and I don't own any airlines--too much beta for the CFx when things were good), I want them to invest their cash or give it back to me, the shareholder, or get rid of their other shareholders. If they can get a cheaper capital structure by levering up just a bit, do that too. This is me speaking as an investor, which is the point of view I think they should take as well. Why answer a question when you don’t know anything about the topic? The Social Democrats have dominated Nordic politics for generations and the Nordic model is a model of social democracy. Social Dems currently control parliament in Norway, Sweden and Finland, are the secondary party in Denmark and have significant seats in Iceland. Fundamental change isn't easy, that's why M4A is met with severe criticism, nevertheless, a change needs to happen if we want a better world for ourselves and the future. This short term win strategy is bullshit. Who says we're talking about pandemics. I thought we we're talking about disruptions. It's not just pandemics that reduce demand for airfare. They aren’t flying? My point is to amass 6 months of operating expenses, they would need to save for 12 years. And, keeping the airlines from failing is helping people? All the people who work for them? All the people who rely on air travel for work? All the people who rely on government help that is paid for by the taxes that airlines pay? [deleted] JFC they have 0 guarantee of being bailed out. Less stocks means that fewer people are in control. Boards have to submit certain things to stockholders to get approval and vote on. Having fewer random people allows better control. And not stock buy backs. Issuing new stock, but you can issue forever Which? Singapore is the only one I can think of, and obviously Singapore is not your typical situation. Yes they are not charging for liquidity, but that's the point in a liquidity crisis. That said, govt borrowing cost is effectively zero at the moment. US govt had effectively zero cost of capital at the moment [deleted] I know it's just semantics but you didn't get a free car, you got to use the car for free. It's more accurate to call it a free loan than free money. Airline industry is vital to modern business and modern life in general, its reductive to only talk about workers directly employed in the industry. Cough.. oil.. I was just saying their cash burn is tremendous. you don't want airlines doing anything other than fly planes... and you don't want them investing in capacity for capacity's sake. whether or not you do bailouts should not determine separate policies w.r.t. to measures to help distressed individuals. Airlines are just taking a page out of the 2008 financial crisis playbook that the Big Banks used. When shit hits the fan, lay off thousands of employees, get money from the government and have the executives pay themselves big bonuses. The entire market did that. That problem is b/c of Trump's bullshit tax cut and other fiscal stimulus that was entirely economically unsound and unjustified. Airlines around the world are in comparable situation... no airline holds sufficient cash to cruise through a situation like this. We would all be worse off if companies hoarded cash to survive black swan events. The problem is Trump's tax breaks, not measures appropriately taken in abrupt crises like this. Like I've said previously, Gov't shouldn't just give handouts, but they also shouldn't expect market terms... the gov't has zero capital cost right now and unlimited liquidity. It should use that prudently to support areas of economy disproportionately affected in order for that financial stress to not move throughout the entire system. Look at the stock prices for airlines, it is not like they have rallied back huge after trump said he would take action to support them. But it has stemmed the loss. The investors ARE still taking massive hit on their investment. If you think otherwise, go and buy airline stocks right now. So let's tank the rich people's portfolio *and* keep the airlines running. Which is what my comment above suggests. Not out of spite for rich people you understand, but because they mismanaged the company, voting for increased share buybacks that made them unprepared for an economic downturn. Keeping the airlines running is good sense, but making the shareholders whole sends the message that all companies should funnel all their cash to shareholders, and the government will save them if it goes wrong. Unemployment insurance exists. Then give individuals money. Bailouts for private corporations are inherently corrupt and against capitalism. Correct, I was just clarifying your point. He’s talking out his ass. He doesn’t understand that for his small business, paying his shareholders = paying himself. No shit if the airlines were solely owned and kept all of their retained earnings for themselves, they’d have enough cash for this too. Which seems like a problem that government should regulate. Stronger protections to prevent the need for bailouts over investor profit. We need stronger financial government protections to prevent businesses from going out of business, especially if the industry is large and influential. These companies should not be 2 bad weeks from going belly up. We criticize individuals who are two weeks from being homeless. This would change so much of how businesses operate and could curtail the stupidity of all of this. Do whatever you want with your private business but publicly traded business effect the middle class who have 401ks and pensions wrapped up in this shit. Yes. The financial system is extremely myopic. The well-being and survival of the company should supersede profit of investors. If the company collapses to enrich investors, it's an elaborate scam. The Fed's actions were to stabilize the financial system. For instance, $1.5 trillion into the repo market was to stop any spikes in interest rates. Repo market can go crazy during times of panic and banks would then have to pay unnecessarily high interest rates for short-term loans. Fed's action was to prevent that from happening. Fed cut interest rates to zero to help against deflation. Demand for most goods will collapse in the next few weeks. Low interest rates can help companies and people refinance any loans at lower rates. But that's really all the Fed can do. Fed played all of its cards in one week. Congress will borrow money (in other words, increase its debt and deficit) to bailout various industries. The Treasury department can literally borrow money from investors so that they can use that money to give to these companies. So, there's a phrase called moral hazard. If you followed the crisis in 2008 then you would know what it means. Moral hazard, for instance, is you taking actions without taking any responsibility for your actions. In the current situation, these airlines should have been in better financial condition but they aren't in better financial condition. In fact, for the past 10 years they chose to give out money to investors rather than create a stronger balance sheet. In many instances, these companies borrowed money at low interest rates so that they can give that money to investors. Now that they are in a bad situation, they want the us(taxpayers) to bail them out. But why am I responsible for their actions? And what will I gain from this because I never received any money from Delta when business was good? In fact, corporate tax rates went down, my plane seat size went down, and they kept charging customers more fees. And shouldn't the government help citizens rather than greedy corporations that only care about investors? mmmm me likes a ol' naturaleeeeeee mechanical keyboard, I like it natural. You know, like they constantly tell us little people to do. And how would that effect shareholders and the airline companies value when almost every single one is down almost 50% in a matter of 2 weeks. Pretty sure we are getting financial relief. Im more concerned with the effect on airline employees than board members. Until they cannot fund it, either. The shares you purchased someone has to buy from you at the price you purchased, which is how you make maximum profit and the other guy incurs maximum losses. If you short and it goes bankrupt, you owe nothing and keep the money No that’s a short. The difference is that puts are a contract that gets excerised at its expiry date. If the value of the stock is 0, the writer of the put has to pay out the maximum possible return for the buyer of the put You’re sort of right. The are fairly clear rules pertaining to delisting or going OTC from nasdaq and NYSE. So, whoever chooses to ignore those, probably isn’t sharpest knife in the drawer. If that is the case, and the company files for bankruptcy, a few things can happen depending on which type of bankruptcy. In the most simplified terms, the company would have to liquidate all of their assets, at which point there is a payout based on a predetermined hierarchy. Senior debt is at the top, and equity is near the bottom. you’re probably lucky if you get anything. >They get rid of a company's most expensive liability (equity claimants on cash) and place cash in the hands of shareholders, who can in turn re-invest the proceeds into companies starved of capital. Dividend payments are usually reinvested into the same stock, so your assertion that shareholders will turn and re-invest the proceeds into cash starve companies is unlikely. >As opposed to the alternative of using that cash to fund expansions (which in this case would have been disastrous) Funding expansion is one of many things a company can decide to do, another is paying down debt. >Also what are you doing on this sub? What are you doing on this sub? It is you that doesn't know the topic. Social democracy and democratic socialism are completely different things. I say we are talking about a pandemic, because that's what's happening. Airlines as an industry can't run for an extended period of time with no revenue. Fixed costs are too high. Normally we shouldn't care because random shit happens and it's 1) generally part of the business and 2) generally doesn't shut down all air traffic. In this case governments are (basically) forcing ppl not to fly. In some cases governments are legally grounding planes. They have some responsibility to that business to help it get through a government caused cessation of operations. I thought u were saying only bail them out idk why. But ya I was just saying the people should be bailed out and not forgotten. These circumstances are different than any of us have been thru. Everyone is going to need help. I agree, my point was that smaller businesses and individuals were continuously told to plan better, but those big businesses aren't. So they're getting preferential treatment, which I think is unfair in a capitalist economy. The restaurant/bar/entertainment/etc. sector is getting hit just as hard as airlines, and they hire more people than the airlines. However, now that there are disaster loans opened up to small businesses and relief plans for individuals, I am totally OK with the airline bailouts. [Qatar, Emirates, bunch of others](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_government-owned_airlines) Ok. Sure, technically you didn't get a free car, you got to use a car for free. As the man said, you're arguing technicalities. And I'm just saying that it was not inevitable that they had to buy back shares and now be in a position of imminent bankruptcy. Of course they shouldn't have just hoarded cash for 12 years. They could've payed back loans, built up a reasonable cash reserve and perhaps also bought back some shares. But not up to the scale that they have done. They knowingly increased their risk and that wasn't inevitable. [deleted] > We would all be worse off if companies hoarded cash to survive black swan events. But are we better because they didn't? Did the extra profit go to more legroom? Better wages? More benefits? No, we get less legroom and extra baggage fees. Honestly, if the airlines actually used the profit to improve the passenger experience and care for their employees better, I would have much more sympathy for them. I don't have sympathy for bailouts that will ultimately enrich the investors. As the idiom goes: “privatize the profits, socialize the risk”. Unemployment insurance is your brilliant answer? Also why does what is ""inherently capitalist"" or not matter? This is the real world not a a PHIL lecture And where does that money come from? It’s not infinite, and airlines pay a ton in taxes and add a ton to the GDP Guy thinks running a cafe is the same as an airline. “I just don’t understand how they could be in such a jam.. me and my two employees are just staying home through this! NOT A BIG DEAL GUYSSSSSS” Sure. That’s how it should be. Other things should be considered over profit too. Like human rights, product/service quality, ethics. But this is the USA. We’re focused on what’s six inches in front of our face and sixty seconds in the future. After all, “In the long run we are all dead.” [deleted] What if you don't actually hold any stock? Ah you’re right - my bad. Lmao, ok pal. When talking about airlines being prepared there’s no reason to specify pandemic. They won’t make a “pandemic fund.” Airlines were not prepared for ANY disruption. Agreed. And I personally think Romney’s plan to give everyone (with exceptions) 1k is a decent suggestion And you think Qatar or UAE are remotely relevant examples here? That looks like a long list where vast majority of airlines there that I would only fly on if it was my only choice. Well in this case, technicality matters. Free money is just plain wrong, technically or not. Why not just call it a cheap government loan? That chart is nonsense... they leave off AA b/c it is negative CF (so would be a zero on that chart) but then include in a combined metric which is nonsense. AA with negative CF doesn't make the buybacks of the other airlines more aggressive. So add a zero to that chart, ignore the ""combined"" one and take a fresh look. and not all companies are in the same situation. growth companies don't do buybacks. you would need to look at comparable companies... levered buybacks of mature industries has been the norm, particularly after Trump's ridiculous tax cuts. >Are you arguing that we're better off when they convert free cash flow into executive bonuses? no. tech companies hoarding cash is not a good thing. they get away with it b/c no one holds them accountable given outsized overall returns. The world is not a better place if every company holds enough cash on hand to survive black swan events. liquidity/leverage are not black&white issues and they are inherently dependent on market environment. lots of decent buys out there. am trying to build more but keep trading the spikes b/c volatility is crazy. wish i could be trading in canadian pref markets, but etrade apparently won't let me. :( Yes we are better off doing some form of bailout for sectors particularly impacted by events largely out their control, than by requiring all companies to hold enough cash to withstand those types of thing. Holy shit lmao both sides here are retarded. Paying taxes and adding to GDP does not entitled one to a Federal bailout. It's funny you mentioned paying taxes, because the cruise line industry has structured itself to pay almost NOTHING to the US Treasury. Cruise line operators such as Royal Caribbean are not Incorporated in the USA to avoid paying income tax! Royal Caribbean Cruises LTD. is incorporated in Liberia. The company argued it shouldn't have to pay income tax to the USA as a result. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Caribbean_Cruises I know the scale is very different, but company's well-being and survival should supersede investor profits. If investors are profiting while a company is collapsing, it's just an elaborate scam. And the over half a million airline workers potentially out of a job if the airlines fail. How does that effect the rest of the country since 50 billion of taxpayer dollars is too much? Honestly im curious You don’t need to own the stock to trade the options. You’re simply trading the “option” to sell or buy at a specific price. You make money by selling the contract. Yeah... This isn't just any disruption though. Most normal disruptions are regional (volcano) or very short term (9/11) or structural business issues (oil price/union contracts). This is a global government forced shutdown. They could have saved all the money they made for the past 10 years and still go out of business by the end of the year. This is different and needs to be treated as such. Is that Romney’s plan? That’s exactly what Andrew yang said. Why not? It's an example of an airline ran by government that provides better service than others. It's an example of why nationalizing an airline doesn't *have to* be bad if it's done right. Cause it's a free government loan. Fair enough Being a massive addition to the GDP, and adding a massive amount of jobs, means that they get consideration for a bailout, in order to save the workers, and the American people in general Well yeah, once they start cannibalizing a company it’s time to bail out.. I don’t see that at major successful airlines. Doesn’t happen at my airline. If I did, I would apply at another airline. I started seeing behavior like that at a small regional I flew for in the Caribbean.. decided it was time to go. They went bankrupt shortly after I left. But how can you exercise a put option of you don't hold any shares Yang wanted universal basic income. This isn’t that And you think Qatar and UAE are good comparables for economic policy of the US? I think we're done here... either you're not discussing in good faith, or you're not capable of the discussion on the topic. Nice you made progress I believe if you wanted to exercise them, you’d have to buy them. But then you’d just sell them for the price. At that point you’re better off selling the contract right? I’m still learning too You can't. You must have the shares to exercise the put. That said, if a stock is trading at $30 per share, the strike price on my put is $60, and I don't hold any shares, then exercising would mean I buy 100 shares for $3k, then exercise for $6k, for a cool $3,000 profit. It is far easier, though, to just sell the put. That way I still make my profit but don't have to to through the hassle of buying then exercising. In this simplified case, the value of the put would be just under $3k, and the person buying it would likely immediately exercise to squeeze that last bit of profit out. True that. It’s kind of lame Romney says 1 time. It should be once a month till this shit is over. I would guess if it continues there would be another bill to do it, if needed. But officials are gonna look at it month by month I just read it. Romney said it as a one time thing. They should definitely look at it as month to month. Then they will pass another. Bills should have end dates to keep them from rolling on forever" "AP News: Live updates: European Union freezes assets of Putin, Lavrov",4205,https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-business-europe-united-nations-kyiv-6ccba0905f1871992b93712d3585f548,"President Putin doesn't hold assets overseas... ...in his own name. That is why it is vital to go after his associates. You don't have to stop all payments, but to delay them while they are checked. USA should do the same [deleted] Don’t freeze, Seize. Make instigator suffer Don’t just freeze it, use the money for war reparations. Here is the breakdown of the sanctions the US has imposed on Russia from the US Treasury website. https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy0608 Good fuck that terrorist Freezing isn't going far enough. I wish they could distribute the assets to the Ukrainian citizens. 100 years after they do it.... Sheesh Freeze? Try permanent seize. Jelly of the month club..... CANCELED Anything other than removing them from Swift will not help even a little Here is the status of the SWIFT sanctions. https://apnews.com/article/what-is-swift-russia-financial-system-083a5935002c9d06ffd6ac39c13d3ce4 In a related note: Putin sent his yacht home from the Hamburg docks just earlier last week. Probably to avoid it getting impounded. Fuck Putin It’s time they did those two like Ghaddafi Not enough The dumb crap the media says is astonishing. You *really* think Putin and Lavrov are gonna put significant assets in western banks? It's just the sad excuse the EU has found to say ""No we're not helpless and useless, look what we did""....I wanted to facepalm when I read this.... Now they need to repo th Russian Tanks He'll likely be fine waiting for sanctions to blow over as he contemplates 233,000 square miles of additional territory he didn't need. Maybe he'll send a bonus to the various Neville Chamberlins of the West who helped him. It's a start. Better yet, turn them over to Ukraine to finance their war effort. Freezing assets is a joke. As if they hold in their names assets in non Russian banks. With help from wedtern banks crooks and oligarchs evolved and invented techniques to hold assets. Freeze? That’s weak, seize! Vote Ukraine into NATO now and send in a force to defend. If that happens, the world will know we mean business. And what does this accomplish exactly? Congratulations… You just allowed Russia to form a decentralized currency with China. You are now going to see NATO slowly become irrelevant and now all peace treaties between these two countries and the rest of the world will be completely ignored. China doesn’t have any allegiance to anybody and now neither does Russia. You’ve pushed them into a situation where they will leave the world economy and will require a nuclear explosion in order to stop what you have started We have seized a $100 interest bearing CD in Putins name. Take that Russia Who the f cares? Freeze their damn mobility. Freeze their communications. Freeze their electricity. Freeze their insides until the boil out through their eyeballs. Here you can donate directly to the Ukrainian Armed Forces: https://bank.gov.ua/en/news/all/natsionalniy-bank-vidkriv-spetsrahunok-dlya-zboru-koshtiv-na-potrebi-armiyi But, (correct me if I'm wrong) he had five years i which we were threatening to prepare for this by stockpiling money AND he is still selling millions of dollars of oil to western Europe every day bringing in new money by the truckloads. I just don't get it. Is this political theater or do I have something wrong? This is comical-Putin is much too savvy and likely has a labyrinth of shell companies et cetera....and he is the supreme leader of a sovereign country. These were all predicable moves that would have to been anticipated by Putin. This will not be the deterrence that it intends to be. It is a nice gesture of support but, in seeing pictures of the Ukraine, is not the aid they are seeking. Should read, “seizes” Bravo EU. Acting so quick. I run an investment fund domiciled in the caymans, we got the CIMA sanctions notification a few hours ago. Edit: Link to the sanctions email for those interested: https://imgur.com/a/hP1lIsZ I think it has already. The problem is we need consequences to impose when Russia takes Kyiv. If we impose everything now they have no incentive to stop. They probably won’t stop anyway (I think we guaranteed that when we took the possibility of troops off the table) but imposing all sanctions now eliminates all leverage against Russia. Too many people support Republicans, and too many Republicans work for Putin. And there families to. I hope. Trump’s bank account probably had a Venmo of $700 billion last week A russian in charge of nuclear weapons with nothing to lose...sounds fun [deleted] That would be so classic. Seize and auction ALL OF IT off and send the money and more weapons and supplies to Ukraine Even removing them from SWIFT isn't gonna help much. They already have an alternative system that they will just develop more quickly. As for their western economical partners, they'll just suffer from the endless complications. GOSH...I DO NOT want to imagine how miserable the poor people in charge of finding a solution to this particularly harrowing task are gonna be. Germany and Italy are already saying they're against Russia's removal from swift. This is old news now, seems like they are all on board, just waiting for the announcement. Germany, Italy and Hungary all announced support this am. I read they are concerned about causing a global economic crash (worse than it already has) if they ban them from swift because Russia is the 12th largest economy. Yes. Putin is an idiot So what do you propose? It's just a part of sanctions. But all of these things together make a dent. I mean what's the pleasure of being a billionaire oligarch if everything is inconvenient, difficult, traveling restricted, bank transactions only through complicated schemes etc. I hope their kids will be kicked out of elite schools in US and UK too - as there are many Nah. Definitely expand NATO preemptively in the future though. Encircle Russia on all sides. Is Finland in NATO? If not, let them in I agree. But wouldn’t this mean nuclear war? :/ Sanctions accomplish the freezing of assets of corrupt oligarchs who hand big money to Putin for his favorable treatment These people are not millionaires, the are billionaires, and there are dozens of them. Yesterday Putin released a video for Russian consumption, of a meeting he had with what looked like about 50 of these people. He was trying to show Russians how sanctions won't hurt him. While it's true that there are ways around the SWIFT system (if you have ever sent or received a bank wire you know what a SWIFT code is), sanctions will make it more difficult for oligarchs to operate. The people who will suffer most of course, is the Russian citizenry. Putin will do his best to prop up his corrupt billionaire crony led economy (with Chinese loans if need be), but he doesn't give a damn about the average Russian' working class person who will surely suffer. Found the troll Russia is already violating treaties. They claim the Minsk agreements don'tmatter, they ignored the Budapest Memorandum (Ukraine gave up 1400 nukes for Russian assurances they would never invade) among others. Putin has made it clear that treaties don't matter to him. You're more likely to see NATO become *more* relevant as Russia gets more agressive. It's almost entirely an organization to keep Russia in check, and more countries will be far more interested in joining and/or supporting after this naked aggression. What do you think them having a decentralized currency would do? They would be able to trade with each other and that's it. That loses value quickly when you can't export anything or import raw materials. It's not like the rest of the world wouldn't know what currency they were using. Or they could bet everything on an unstable, volatile crypto route, which can simply be denied in most markets, and could easily result in far more rapid declines in their buying power. Russia's allegiance has always been to Russia and only Russia. Should they leave the world economy they will end up in a similar destitute state as North Korea. Russians won't stand for it. There will absolutely be revolts. Considering how high political tensions have been in Russia for a while now, it wouldn't take much. Hmm. In just seven hours this comment has aged poorly. China just condemned Russia. China’s allegiance is to the good ole U$A. Fucking LOL at thinking that they’ll pivot quickly enough Caymans are required to participate? Russian banks, not Putin directly. Where are you getting your news from? Biden gave a press conference yesterday where he was asked why he hasn't done this yet. He said it was being held in reserve. They definitely haven’t added him to OFAC sanctions list. Edit: To clarify, as of 14:47 UTC-5 on 24 February, US has not added Putin to its sanctions lists. The list has not been updated since. They announced the freezing of both more banks and assets last night. This is an ongoing event that is still unfolding. Reports from yesterday have a really good chance of being invalid today. Why would you comment “I think”? Do a google search or don’t say anything. Or are so you lonely & desperate for interaction you HAVE to say something? Fake ass news, proven fake. The entire collusion lie has been exposed. C'mon. 😂 Not sure why you were being downvoted. Seems a lot of people would like to gloss over the fact that Putin has the ability to literally destroy the world at his fingertips. It’s been 8 years since Crimea sanctions. I’m starting to lose hope he will reverse course So someone’s gonna need to seize his head from his body… Start with Putin’s yacht. Their own SWIFT alternative is far from developed and has barely any uptake outside of Russia. The Chinese alternative is more advanced but is basically only useful in a handful of countries besides China and puts you in Chinese pockets for your money. Neither option will solve the near future economic devastation that would come to Russia if they're pulled out of SWIFT. Look at what happened to Iran and extrapolate out by at least an order of magnitude. We can’t live in fear forever. We can’t give in because we are scared. That’s how we get into these situations. Actually. Interestingly the Chinese may comply with the sanctions too. They don’t want their own banks to get blacklisted. Two of their largest banks just suddenly decided not to finance buying of Russian raw materials any more. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-25/chinese-state-banks-restrict-financing-for-russian-commodities Russia has one citizen and 140 million slaves. As long as Putin is fat it doesn’t matter to him who else suffers. This idea that the oligarchs keep their money in Russia in really not true all of them know russia is a mafia state and they want an out if things go south if you don’t kiss the ring you’ll find polonium in your underwear i think seizing their assets and stopping them from using the swift system will have a big impact. Here’s an idea… You can give me reasons why I’m wrong? Or you can go for this low effort thing and signal to the rest of the herd to jump off the cliff with you. It doesn’t make you correct… I agree with you Fyi here is the link to the email we received https://imgur.com/a/hP1lIsZ Yeah seems so. I was pretty happy to see the email come in. Recent sanction emails have had a lot of Russians on them in recent days/weeks, but this one was something i had been anticipating. Unfortunately we don’t have any of his (stolen) money to freeze. They're a British territory. The US issued sanctions against Putin and his top aide earlier today. That's why I said I THINK. That means I may be wrong. [removed] The us did sanction putin You gotta love how that weak, bumbling old man announces US strategy before Putin even takes action. What a nightmare this administration has been. Here is the list. https://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/policy-guidance/country-guidance/sanctioned-destinations I answered a question to the best of my ability. I am not perfect. Now what? It’s ok to be lonely, and it’s ok to want to interact with other people. We are social creatures. If you really suspect desperation on that person’s part, you should say something empathetic and encouraging - they might need that. But instead you chose to project your own problems onto someone else as an attack. Very sad. I hope you are ok. Life is a jungle. We shouldn’t make it harder for each other. >Putin has the ability to literally destroy the world at his fingertips. He can order it. Whether he'd be obeyed is different matter. He may well be on the brink of getting the Ceacescu treatment he's deserved for the last two or three decades. If I recall correctly most of those sanctions were ended by the last administration for…reasons. Except he already brought it back from Germany last week. Again, I agree. Standing and watching is making us all look weak and making it acceptable. Awful times indeed Uh, that was a quick turn around, I guess... Oh brilliant. So your directive is just for those 2 people, not anyone with say Russian passport or Russian home address. I was hoping it would target more broadly. [deleted] I'm telling you that you are wrong The real answer is Putin doesnt hold his own bank accounts and money. Cutting off his supporters is the only way to get him. You think Putin, a man notorious for having a secret fortune, is vulnerable to having funds seized in Western bank accounts? It would be a meaningless gesture. Idk internet person. Just take a step back from your whey protein rails and think for a second. What’s the next step beyond that? There is strength in keeping a 2nd to last resort in the back pocket. If WW3 happens I’m fairly certain that most people don’t want to get flash cooked to death even the assholes and people you ideologically disagree with. chill. its been a single day Yea Putin doesn’t have a bank account. So they are sanctioning and freezing assets of his inner circle. Maybe the Trump foundation and the NRA are still holding his cash for him 🤷‍♂️ Hey remember when the Republican senate had to write a veto proof bill, completely blocking trump removing Russian sanctions, and refusing to enact them without their permission? And then Biden sanctioned the living hell out of Russia, it’s banks, it’s pipelines, soon to be SWIFT but didn’t yet block all of putins assets that you can’t find if you wanted? Everyone but a trump loyalist remembers. Why are people downvoting this? It’s true. Why are you down voting him? He's right. Did you notice when the posts you’re responding to were written? They're deterrents. A deterrent doesn't work unless you announce it in advance dumb ass No puppet no puppet....you're the puppet No, there’s no turnaround. Just clarification. I agree with you… Russia is terrible… But at the same time I would also agree with somebody that says that the Ukraine is terrible and full of corrupt evil politicians who purposefully make that part of the world worse so that way the United States can continue to exploit natural resources in this part of the world on the cheap. Both things can be true at the same time There have been many sanctions in recent days, not the entire country (yet) but it’s now a massive list of corporations, vessels, and individuals. I’m sure it’ll keep growing. As a rule we wouldn’t take their money anyway, regardless of the list. Many funds go beyond the mandates as a matter of practicality (you don’t want to be managing this stuff) and personal ethics of the operators. This is Reddit dude. I'm convinced half the people on this fucking website have no idea what they're talking about And yet here you are doing the same thing. Take your own advice and fuck off Cretin. Not sure why this is downvoted. People talking out of their ass should be downvoted. Not sure why this is an unpopular opinion. Who are these people who are pro talking out of your ass? Of course you're a developer. Without this comment chain I too would have been ignorant of the US freezing Putin's assets. See how this works? Yeah, do a little more research.. ohh and buy FUBO Run on a treadmill dude Why are you being such a dick about it? OP explained their wording which is valid, and you're still going after them. Just leave it alone or actually post your proof in a less dickish way (I know you're correct but nobody likes an asshole). Read my post at the top of the thread. Yes, I was wrong. I have posted the correct information for all to see in the comments. Is that ok for you or do you want me to do something else? [Not wrong](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbs17.com/news/us-to-freeze-putins-assets-in-wake-of-invasion/amp/) Yes. Cripple the oligarchs and Putin will have no choice but to stop. If he loses the support of the oligarchs then he has no power. Good plan. Might as well just freeze accounts of every Russian national with more than a couple million in American assets. No reason to go easy on the people with the power to stop this bullshit. If we where to do that, then where would trump sleep at night? with how fast the rubles falling i hope that moneys all in gold or another currency. id be freaking out if the dollar dropped that low They already thought of this You'd think so, but then why is he still willing to kill people and destroy lines just to make more when he has more then he'll ever need already? Why do most billionaires seem to be the exact same way? Seems to me that billionaires care about every fucking penny. It take shouldn't be that surprising that the people who accumulate the most money have an irrational desire to accumulate money. One day too long. Because the alternative to Biden was trump. Trump who was impeached for withholding military aid to Ukraine in a quid pro quo. Trump who three days ago applauded Putin and has yet to come out against the current invasion of Ukraine. Edit: how could I forget his denying of the importance of NATO, and lack of action regarding the Russian interference in the 2016 election. (Thanks u/bern1312) The alternative to Biden was a Putin loving, election denying, attempted dictator. That is why you are getting downvoted. I just realized you're a Gamestop pump n dumper. I shouldn't have wasted my time discussing foreign policy with the likes of you. Why do the walstreetbets folk keep wandering away from their sub? BUMBLING BIDEN: ""If if if if Russia just has has has an an an uhh uhh an incursion, well oh uhh if that is it then well uh uh uh we will well it we won't be discussing back and forth what to do if its just an incursion"" PUTIN: INVADE NOW. That is what I mean about not announcing what you will/won't do if Russia does/doesn't do something. In the hands of a president with cognitive decline, the wrong message was sent. That single faux pas is likely 100% responsible for where Ukraine finds itself today. Yeah, that ""deterrent"" didn't work at all, did it, because Putin is launching a full-scale invasion of Ukraine. That Trump Tower meeting should have been the end of his campaign. People still choose to believe it was innocent. Lol, I literally disagreed with almost all of your points and you instantly agreed. That's just odd. Can you explain what, in your opinion, makes Ukraine terrible or corrupt? With examples, please. Ukraine is a pretty big country and not the worst off, but they're hardly a major power, how do you propose they are actively trying to make that part of the world worse? I'm not a Ukrainian historian, but all I can see is a country moving away from its shared soviet roots with Russia who has proven themselves to not be the ally Ukraine wants. Russia in turn is playing the sociopathic abusive boyfriend trope, and demanding they come back or else. Or at the very least use their body as a human shield in any conflict with the west. There is of course fairly minor internal identity issues and disputes over land, but that is pretty common, and has occured in a lot of countries without foreign invasion. I would dare say most countries at some point have dealt with these issues. I imagine the US is far more focused on the relatively easier job they've had exploiting resources from South America, Africa and West Asia to be terribly concerned with Ukrainian or Eastern European resources. That would be like China exploiting East European countries for some reason. Too much hassle for too little gain compared to the truly poor and exploited parts of the world they already actively use. Maybe 49% Been here 14 years. Can confirm. Could be at least 100% possibly They aren’t being a dick about, its actually better for everyone everywhere ever if people would stop saying “I think” when they mean “I don’t know but would rather make something up than not be able to add my piece”, which I consider to be an ethically good action that serves the community. People who say shit just to have their voice heard need to be told they are wrong as much as possible. It’s just incredibly stupid to tell people what you think happened when you’re just wildly guessing. It would have taken him 2 seconds to verify on Google. Why comment if you have no idea what you’re talking about. It just makes it harder to use Reddit because it’s is filled with stupid, uninformed posts by immature, insecure people. It’s still misinformation wether it’s intentional or not. The comment that corrected it isn’t at the top of the post. But, even it if was why would anyone believe anything in it? The better question is why OP’s even commenting on something they admit they don’t know? And why are you defending the spread of misinformation? You want me to reread the same comment multiple times? You’re crazy Delete your comment or edit it. B/c of the way comments fold on Reddit people won’t see deeper comments where you admit you’re wrong. Right now you’re spreading misinformation. Did you notice the time when those comments were posted? I mean he has a pretty decent cult of personality I think he does have vast quantities of gold, unfortunately Generally, dictators steal from their citizens, intentionally devalue the currency and launder their profits through real estate and other investments in other people's name... doubtful he's sitting on rubles Because they use money to keep score in a gamified view of the world Let's be clear Putin is not a Warren Buffet, he's an egotistical tyrant. He seeks power. You forgot how often he badmouthed NATO and refused to hold Putin accountable for election interference, too. Biden doesn't stop being a bad president just because Trump would have been much worse. That’s irrelevant to what was actually mentioned though. No one ever said trump would be better. They said that Biden is being weak right now. They haven’t even attempted to hit Russia where it would actually hurt and Biden even admitted that he knows these sanctions might not do anything. Right now it looks like it’s all just lip service to score popularity points without actually doing anything. None of that criticism means that I would rather have Trump in the office though. Obviously Trump is worse but that doesn’t make Biden good by default. [removed] I'd argue with you but you probably only make a few ruples an hour at the Russian Troll Farm and those ruples are losing value quickly Your dumb idea of keeping them secret wouldn't have helped Hillary literally paid Russian intelligence for oppo research which turns out to be false, but the Trump Tower meeting should have ended a campaign? Mmmkay. Don't waste your time, it's a troll. Their intent is to waste your time with meaningless arguments like this The Ukraine hired the vice president‘s son to serve on the national energy board who didn’t have a degree in energy or anything relating to the energy sector in the Ukraine… He was getting paid $8 million per year -15% for Joe Biden… All of this information was verified from a laptop that was found containing emails from Victor Poroshenko… Joe Biden admitted at a press meeting that there was a prosecutor in the Ukraine who was going after his son for political corruption and money laundering. Joe Biden publicly stated that he held aid to the Ukraine over the presidents head and was able to get him fired saving his son from becoming prosecuted for political corruption… The Ukraine is a safe harbor for Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and Syria when it came to terrorist fundraising according to the FBI in 2003 before we went to war with Afghanistan… This isn’t exactly like it’s not common knowledge here… Especially when President Putin send this on his only address to the nation yesterday morning. That’s saying he’s right… I’m just saying there’s two sides to every story. Both people can be pieces of garbage Saw a Reddit post that said 80% of statistics are made up on the spot Where are you getting your statistics from? Is your account 14 years old? Cause it only shows two. Mine is similar where I’ve been around for a decade with this account but it usually shows an age of 2 years. How is telling someone they're correct but being a dick (because they are) defending misinformation? Why are you defending this person's way of interacting? This is Reddit not a legal deposition people can say whatever they feel like that’s kind of the point Yes, your comment saying he was wrong was 5 hrs ago and the link I sent you was also 5 hrs ago. if i didnt know better id think hed been planning to invade the rest of europe for years And bitcoin too. Okay wow you are far more reasonable than I thought you would be. Thank you for that. I actually do not particularly love Biden either, I would have chosen Bernie (and he would have won in 2016 too instead of Hillary) but alas we are stuck with Biden. I do hear you though I would not choose him myself unless it was him or trump. I think that was how the majority of Americans felt about him. He’s too damn old. Not saying I agree but Biden mentioned he wanted to keep some moves in his back pocket in case things progressed even more. Probably a bullshit answer but has some degree of logic. Typical. Anyone that doesn't agree with you must be a Russian troll. That line if crapola was getting old in Trump's first year, and yet you're still trotting it out 5 years later. Most Americans do not support this administration's policies. That doesn't make us residents of a Russian troll farm. Oof, imagine believing and then repeating all of this bullshit. Reddit conservatives are always a hilarious bunch when they start acting like they know what they're talking about, but are only repeating what they read in their ""Flaired Users Only"" safe spaces. Oh, and to respond to your original comment before you went off on this unhinged spiel: [here's China signaling that they don't want their banks to get blacklisted as well.](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-25/chinese-state-banks-restrict-financing-for-russian-commodities) I think it’s closer to 76.5% Magic 8 ball of course !!! [deleted] I was clarifying my previous post in response to hai very stupid clarification of his previous post. How is that being a dick. People on Reddit are so insecure that they can’t handle warranted criticism. You’re saying “it’s ok talk out of your ass.” It’s crazy you think commenting uninformed BS is acceptable behavior when absolute _minimal_ is to just not comment. No, you're incorrect. The comment was from six hours and the article you linked was posted two hours ago. He’s probably got a lot in crypto too Is that the cover story they gave you? OK… I understand that you wanna stand on your soapbox and virtue signal about everybody else being a conspiracy theorist… But you could always try to debunk what I’m saying… That would make me look like much more of a fool than this ironic conspiracy theory you’re coming up with… But you’re not doing that. Why? Sorry. Wasn’t trying to call it in to question even though I did. More trying to say the app is f’d sometimes. What’s new right? Debating ""is this a lie?"" Post a source. [Heres](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/lisakim/2022/02/25/eu-prepares-to-freeze-putin-and-lavrovs-assets/amp/) one from 13 hrs ago. 4hrs before he posted. Maybe you should check before calling people wrong. Putin is Satoshi That at least can maybe be hacked/stolen You can look at my post history (which you already have), I'm not new, I worked for a large corporation. What you are suggesting here is libelous bullshit and you know it. You want to energize the far left wingers into mass attacks, dontcha. How's that working out for you? I don't feel sorry for you. I want to put sunflower seeds in your pockets and watch 'em grow when you fall down. My man, you know so little about what's actually going on, and I can prove it by the simple fact that you refer to Ukraine as ""The Ukraine"". That's not a small mistake on your part. That's a giant spotlight illuminating your ignorance. >OK… I understand that you wanna stand on your soapbox and virtue signal about everybody else being a conspiracy theorist… I never called you a conspiracy theorist. But *you* just did. >That would make me look like much more of a fool Nah, you're doing a great job of that yourself. I leave you to keep proving as much in your next reply. Oh I didn't take it that way my dude. I mostly use RIF (always shows account age on users) on mobile outside of the old reddit interface when on desktop. I FEAR CHANGE! 😆 I didn't say he was lying, just that he was confused and I explained my source—the speech Biden gave. That article was posted an hour ago, so you're wrong again So you've been working in a Russian Troll Farms for years. Cool. Hope you get a promotion some day You literally edited your comment… LMAO! Not only are you a liar. But you’re also Deceitful. Slow clap… This is (still) far too far to scroll without seeing any quotation marks or blue links. ""Explaining a source"" is not the same as providing one. Dude it's says at the top Feb 25 8:36 am E.S.T. it was updated two hours ago. So you are wrong and unable to read. Not only sad, but a sad ankle biter too. ^ Case in point. If you don't know how to watch a speech given by the President of the US you probably shouldn't bother trying to have opinions about current events All the numbers in your comment added up to 69. Congrats! 25 + 8 + 36 = 69 The article was updated an hour ago, so you remain wrong What a non issue with this Biden whataboutism when putin breaks International treaties and is killing people right now en mass Lol, good bot Lol you're a moron Have you never read a news article before? Not sure why this is so confusing to you" "Melvin Capital Lost 53% in January, Hurt by GameStop and Other Bets",4013,https://www.wsj.com/articles/melvin-capital-lost-53-in-january-hurt-by-gamestop-and-other-bets-11612103117,"Every idiot is lectured on the risk of naked shorting and unlimited loses. Fuck these guys for their arrogance Only 47% to go.... Imagine paying 25% commission to invest with them and then see your portfolio down 53% lol Edit. 25% is what you would have paid in previous years as a performance fee. But the hedge fund would take another 2% fee no matter what if the fund go up, down or broke. Never gamble money you are not ready to lose... Iv got a genuine question. Can us holding GME really cause so much disturbance to a multi billion dollar fund ? Surely what they have in GME even with the over shorts is only a small fraction of what they have capital wise. Yet they’re selling the long term investments to cover the shorts Whoops! It's a lot easier to place these bets when it's other people's money. Melvin Capital has only millionaire and billionaire clients. They will be ok. But they did get wedgied sayeth Captain Underpants. 🇺🇸 > More funds also may institute rules about avoiding thinly traded, heavily shorted stocks. Translation: Billionaires and their hedge funds reconsider how they have been targeting stocks that retail traders love as a way to ruthlessly scalp mom-and-pop-and-kid investors who lack the tools and long game to compete > New and existing clients have signed up to invest money into Melvin on Feb. 1, according to the people familiar with the matter. It was unclear how much they would be adding. They're better off putting it into ARKG, than that nest of snakes. It's not a loss until you sell now, is it. I won't believe he fully covered until either the stock crashes or they file for Chapter 14. Imagine being so reckless that fucking Gamestop can take you down, I bet he still doesn't realize it's his own fault. It started the year with about $12.5 billion and now runs more than $8 billion. Lost 53% what? AUM? What these guys did is the equivalent to betting someone several billion dollars that they could walk across Time Square naked whilst holding a sign that says ‘kick my balls’ without getting their balls kicked. [deleted] Are you guys aware of counterfeiting stock? I'd like your opinion on it, especially as it pertains to the tape action of GME over last week. http://counterfeitingstock.com/CS2.0/CounterfeitingStock.html Isn’t risk management part of the Series 7? You would think they would build that into their portfolio. Instead greed took them over like all other firms. Are we supposed to feel bad for these rich scum? Sure make it seems that way based on media portrayals. [deleted] I'm retarded. My condolences The internet is now doing to the financial industry what it did to the music industry. Before the internet, to be successful in music, you had to have a record label, booking agent, manager, tour manager, producer, agent, public relations department, A&R rep, and a list of other titled people that the record industry used to take profits the artist generated. Today an artist can do everything themselves. The record industry is a dinosaur and dying on the vine. This is a point that starts the death of the finance industry as it has operated. Before now, if you wanted to play, you had to have a broker that limited your access while charging outrageous fees whether your trades made money or not. You had to work in a firm for a decade sorting mail and hoped they thought enough of you to let you sit at a trading desk. Had to have a finance degree to get in the door of a ""honored institution"", or work a government job that allowed you to rub elbows with market makers that bought your influence. Today - you need the internet, and you in the sandbox with the suits. And they don't like it. When a multi-billion dollar hedge fund fails Risk Management 101... 47% to go Oh no! Anyways.. Gamblers only quarrel when they loose. How many people were they willing to hurt to make a buck i always thought that the stock market was there to help American business’s grow not choke them out while they are trying to catch a breath. So how does it feel. You will never ever get my shares. hold, hold, hold, we want to see -100 percent, turbulence is around the corner 🎻🎻🎻🎻🎻🎻🎻🎻🎻🎻🎻 I used to wonder what people meant by dumb money, then wallstreebets started to spill over to other places on the internet. The article says they have new accounts coming in and they've deleveraged a bit - their loss is huge but expected in a long-short fund like this. There are many types of hedge funds, long-shorts shoot for huge returns generally, so their clients may not care so much - after all it is likely just a small peice of their clients money. Other types of hedge funds may attempt to lower risk, invest in alternative assets, private lending/equity, or employ other types of strategies. Btw fuck these guys. I bet they got bonuses. Hard to feel sorry for them when they get the education necessary to trade(Seires 7 at minimum) where they tell you how risky this is, they even teach you how to hedge your bets(which obviously reduces risk but also reduces potential gains). They were greedy fucks who wanted to play at the big boys table and lost. That’s the truth! Regardless of what r/wsb caused or didn’t, there was always a chance they would lose and they did. I just like puppies. We coming for the next 47%. 👐💎👐🚀🚀🚀🚀 hehehe Behold my vast barren field of fucks I give about this asshat. How are they still solvent? Won’t all the investors start pulling out their money? If I am thinking correctly, this really means that Melvin lost billions of dollars, that doesn’t belong to them, not that they actually lost the money. Let's get that up to 140% lol The real question is: how much did they borrow last week to cover previous short positions? They sure as hell didn’t BUY all the shares needed to cover! 47% to go! 🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀 Anybody else immediately picture Nelson from the Simpson’s doing the point and laugh when they read this? [deleted] Hashtag financial-advice Boo hoo. Sounds like Melvin Capital is gonna have to cut out a lot of avocado toast. Good now do the other 47 Fuck those guys🤷‍♂️ Got 2 tens for a 5? They do! Good Those fuckers were so sure about their game. Wsb rock! 53% of what... a sandwich!!! The CEO and the Board of Robinhood should be fine well into the billions and each individual barred from trading any and everything for no less that 18 months. SEND A FUCKING MESSAGE to these wealthy tax dodging Mother Fuckers. Remember when these elites these all knowing benevolent super American Capitalist created that financial product that allowed people that could not afford a mortgage to get one so they could foreclosure and buy that property for cheap? Steve Munchin remembers! May all you Wall Street scumbags choke to death on your neck short sale. They should all be in jail. Now they are fucking recovering by manipulating the buy of those stocks and by coordinating brokers, the USA market is garbage and this will rats deserve jail This is the end, right? No way you can continue running other peoples' money it you lose 53% of it in one week For Miami residents: talk to tour representatives to avoid historic houses being demolished Just read According to the RealDeal, ""Plotkin paid $44 million for the two adjacent homes at 6342 and 6360 North Bay Road in November,"" The Real Deal revealed last year. Now, he’s planning to knock down the 1935 house that he bought for $12 million and replace it with a lighted tennis court."" ^53% so far. It's a good start though. We're going to continue until EVER major hedge fund pays for their traitorism to the people of the United States!!! USA! USA! USA! I don’t care how much they lost. I want to know how much they gained, and what their NET gain/loss position was. Oh no! I hope they can still vacation in the Hamptons! Oh God. No. ... they will lose everything. Hopefully they will not be bailed out. Maybe don’t gamble? Yessssss Sounds like they still have 47% more to loose guys. WE LIKE THE STOCK! Very happy! Keep holding Nice This is all a guess, how do you lose anything if the squeeze hasn’t happened yet? *so far Fuckem. We want the other 47% I heard a rumor his wife just filed for divorce Is that all ? You know it is it really hedging if you're kind just gambling they are gonnafail https://discord.gg/CYYGwtrb Fuck em Lots left to lose! 💎🙌🏼🚀 Diamond fucking hands bois 💎🙌💎😎 53% of what? Their market cap? Not long ago, Melvin was one of the most favoured and well paid HFs. Some might say it was comparable to BlackRock. Now, they aged like milk. It was my pleasure, fellow retards. 🤲💎🤲💎🚀🚀🚀 the stock market will crash soon . hedge funds will not be manipulated and lose money and stay away from the market . and remember that all hedge funds know each others so when 1 hedge fund will short the market the others will short also we gona win this! Can we laugh and point. Please. 😂 I love it, 53 so far. 💎🙌 on GME until this guys lose everything Stocks isn’t my game but I’m rooting for the monkeys to make the hedgies bleed. I love a good underdog story. Oh no, anyway... You reap what you sow 😆 Can someone ELIR the options page for GME on Yahoo! Finance? I wish they'd bring back the Yahoo commercials :( Vlad the stock impaler hopefully loses everything. You can’t put a hold on just a few boiling stocks to run to the store and why were they limited shares today. I’m glad I left, man I really thought that he had the right idea and my interests in mind. What a mind fuck. Just fire him !!! Really? Why would you need to mention this? Doesnt this happen all the time? Melvin looks like he got bullied when he was younger. Very big bet went very bad. Wonder whose pensions and 401k's they were investing for. Can't imagine a hedge fund broker playing with his own money. I wish we could do this to Muddy Waters with XL Fleet. Unfortunately they are winning the battle right now!! [deleted] It’s covered in the series 7 exam, which is basically the drivers test for Wall Street jobs. Naked short positions have C) unlimited loss potential. Edit: I took my Series 7 a long time ago and never really used it. I’m not deleting my errant post because the best way to find the right answer on the internet is to post the wrong one. I stand corrected. See below as to why this wasn’t a “naked” short. Edit 2: He who sells what isn’t his’n must buy it back or go to pris’n There was no naked shorting. That term seems to be misused all over reddit. Do you even know what a naked short is? Based on how you are using the term, I don't think you do. The best part is: Can you imagine a senior broker having to bring in all his interns to explain what Reddit is? Billionaires: When educated people lose money and the uneducated gain, there's clearly something wrong here. That's the mentality and narrative they have and it's disgusting How dare you remind me of the second thing you learn about short selling. Of course I know that, I am an expert and you are just a 🐒 who likes 🍌! Bail out pls.. Bravo !! with a polygon cactus It’s a long put. Look at the 13F. What goes up must come down, unless it's shorting then it can only go up 😎 Diamond Hands 🦍🦍🦍 Nope!!! The sky is the limit !!!!!! Or the depths of hell, whichever way you look at it No covering no closing DONT SELL Melvin already closed its GME position out. You fucking nihilists disgust me This. Then they can come to wsb and get it all back I'd be happy with 95% total loss I suspect they have withdrawal constraints otherwise everyone would head for the exits out of Melvin. Fuck Gabe what an absolute muppet. I doubt his past returns would look very good if people had a look at his leverage and risk. It would take him years and years of outstanding returns to make up for 50%+ loss in a month and I doubt their losses are capped yet. Commission? Do you mean management fee? Nobody is paying 25% management fee. Perhaps you mean basis points? That's more in line for institutional money, and tbh if I had Melvin managing for me I'd keep my money there now assuming they don't liquidate, which is likely. Think about it, your high water mark is crazy high and now they'll basically be managing your money for free for a while. You realize they were up over 50% in 2020, close to 50% in 2019, and something like 30% a year average going back to 2014. (And all of these numbers are *after* fees.) Even given the current losses, and even assuming they have zero returns for the rest of 2021, almost all their investors have still made a shit ton of money. It’s probably something like a 2 and 20 pricing model - 2% on assets and 20% on profits(if applicable) Imagine being down 53% and the hedge fund wants to bill you 2% of what’s left for their performance. ""Past performance is no guarantee of future results"" *unless you know the federal government will bail you out before you are in debt Well for them it's not risky because the believed they controlled the market at one point. Sorry boiz not anymore. bE fIsIcAlLy ReSpOnSiBlE But you can bet money if you have a significant edge (inside info, market manipulation, colluding, etc) So a few things: 1) “Us” alone, probably not. But there is pretty compelling evidence that other “smart” money also piled into the trade. 2) It’s not just one fund. Melvin didn’t have all the shorts, they just also had puts which they had to disclose which is why it is their name and not other participants who made the headlines (among other reasons). 3) Short answer, yes. Let’s say they short 2m shares at $4. They make $8m. Super small part of their portfolio. Stock now goes up to $400. They now need to buy back the stock for $800m to cover the position. Big loss on a small position. And it’s not like they have $800m just chilling, you need to sell positions that will also take losses to get there. The issue is that GME *was* a small position but grew into a large one. Your exposure on a short grows larger then more it moves against you. Let's say they shorted $200 million of GME at $10 a share. On a $10 billion portfolio, that's only 2% exposure. But, when GME went to $200+/share, that short position grew to $4 billion. Plus it caused the portfolio value to fall to $6 billion. So, now the position's making up 66% of the portfolio. The problem is they never rebalanced the position as it moved against. The way most sophisticated hedge funds work is to have a portfolio construction process. They allocate each position as a fixed percentage of the portfolio, then rebalance daily, or even intraday to stay on target. Melvin seems like it was mostly old-school Warren Buffet style stock pikers. So they probably conceived of their positions in terms of fixed trades. That's probably why they liquidated their position, when the quants from Citadel took over last week. Yes. Typically these funds are levered 10x or more on the assets they manage. Melvin had ~$12-13 billion under management at the beginning of the year, which means they likely had $100 billion in exposure to the market. If any of their short bets (like GME) move significantly out of the money they risk losing that leverage and having zero liquid capital to cover losses. Making this situation even worse is the cost of delaying the inevitable. The cost to borrow a share of GME has skyrocketed to 25-50% and they’re bleed money every day in fees. They can theoretically hold onto these positions forever if they have the money to pay fees, hoping to outlast the longs (retail traders and other institutions). The other piece that is unclear is how this will impact market makers like Citadel, different clearing houses and brokers who literally are having trouble finding shares to deliver. That piece is what I think worries the market most. What are the cascading effects if shares can’t be delivered en masse? GME has been on the failure to deliver SEC list for a month straight, with multiple days showing nearly 1 million shares that failed to deliver. I’m no expert in market mechanics, but if the basic functions of buying and selling can’t be settled do to outlandish speculative instruments and the veil is lifted for all to see, it could mean a number of hedge funds, clearing houses, and market makers like Citadel face criminal prosecution or the market hemorrhages assets as many close long positions to cover their asses. When you short a stock, you cannot limit your risk. When you go long on a stock, if you buy 1 share at $300 your risk is $300. When you go short, there is no limit to how high it can go, making your losses potentially infinite. Infinite risk brother, also funds are crazy levered nowadays. [removed] > Melvin Capital has only millionaire and billionaire clients. While somewhat true, that’s a fun way to write off any institutional investors which make up a larger chunk of hedge fund assets. So yeah, while Melvin getting squeezed certainly causes pain for millionaires and billionaires, there are also probably a bunch of things like teacher pension funds taking their lumps right now as well robinhood is basically the same thing as facebook, where the users are the product. This is the same tired old myths about short sellers. There's nothing ""ruthless"" about short selling. It's simply a way to express a view about the direction of a stock, no different thang going long. Short selling can't make a company lose money or go bankrupt. The stock price does not affect the day-to-day operations of a company. Gamestop and AMC have been hemorrhaging money, and that has absolutely zero to do with the short interest in the stock. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the actual academic research from financial economics. Mountains of empirical evidence consistently shows that short sellers [increase market efficiency](https://academic.oup.com/rfs/article-abstract/24/3/821/1590469), [improve price discovery](https://academic.oup.com/rfs/article-abstract/26/2/287/1581906), [deter corporate fraud](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1540-6261.2010.01597.x), increase [liquidity and reduce transaction costs](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1540-6261.2012.01802.x) and protect against the formation of [speculative bubbles](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1540-6261.2006.00868.x). Rather than ""ruthlessly scalping"", short sellers primarily earn abnormal returns by [anticipating the announcement of](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1540-6261.2004.00681.x) bad news, disappointing earnings, corporate fraud, and [credit downgrades](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S104295731400014X). The presence of short sellers significantly improves the discipline of corporate managers in terms of [corporate governance](https://academic.oup.com/rfs/article-abstract/28/6/1701/1610243), [timely disclosure of bad news](https://meridian.allenpress.com/jfr/article-abstract/4/1/1/10607), and [deterring fraud](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/jofi.12369). Being against short selling is the equivalent of being an anti-vaxxer in terms of the positions rejection of the scientific evidence. [deleted] They got a $2.75 bil capital infusion when gme was at like $140 and lost it when the stock doubled the next day. They had reason to be confident because they’ve done it dozens of times before. Just imagine this person having bodyguards that sucker punch anybody that came to try. Just this time more people tried than the bodyguards could handle That's one of the most concise and strangely accurate descriptions of this trade I've heard yet. Thank you, and if you don't object I'd like to steal it! It’s a mall retailer post-COVID in a world where digital games sold directly by Sony and Microsoft is the future. A pretty safe bet. If it wasn’t pumped by the memes they’d have been right. I think what happened here is Melvin was getting year over year 30% - 40% returns which is incredibly good. They likely ended up being careless and overlooked there portfolio. Their risk management was probably ""Gamestop going bankrupt is a sure things!"". Their reporting is way more accurate than like 98% of comments on reddit. Taking Trump’s whole “fake news” angle isn’t the best strategy. Meh, WSJ's articles are generally without bias relative to the rest of the media. Their editorials are biased, but then again, so are all editorials. I think they generally stick to facts in their actual reporting, and they've exposed all sorts of crazy shit over the years that has led to actual change/investigations. Edit: spelling This is more than they admit, they admitted 30%, an insider said 50% [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-retail-trading-melvin-idUSKBN2A00KW](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-retail-trading-melvin-idUSKBN2A00KW) # Melvin Capital ends month with over $8 billion in assets after investors added cash: source Join the club Thoughts & Prayers. Ya know, that sounds like it makes sense. Interesting take. Thanks for sharing. Original post deleted in [protest](https://techcrunch.com/2023/06/09/reddit-ceo-doubles-down-on-attack-on-apollo-developer-in-drama-filled-ama/). Help what, Gamestop's actual dumpster fire? Nothing could help that. Otherwise name me a small business on a serious rise that even has stocks that these funds totally fucked. WE like the stock 🚀🚀🌕 Investors have put more in. Read the article and news stories. Does that include Blackrock which is the largest shareholder of GME, how are you going to make them pay? 50% left is still alot Illegal or otherwise, why stick your huge, uncovered ass so far out??? They had a ton of unhedged risk - with unlimited loss potential! - and exposed enough of their portfolio to jeopardize the fund’s survival. Arrogance is a bitch. It's illegal for me and you couse we are not in the big boy club... [The firm uses a bottom-up, fundamental research-driven process to identify investments employing a long-short equity strategy. ](https://melvincapital.com/) Can you cite your sources for the >100% short? I’ve heard it from others too but want to know more. I’m just confused how you could even do that since you have to borrow shares to short (ie how can you borrow more 100% of the stock?) Or they picked a company that was is a failing industry that was 100% going to decline in value. Baring WSB intervention this stock was going to decline due to the business model no longer being profitable. Nothing illegal about it just good analysis. Not true. All you *amateur idiots with such strong opinions... Don’t know what the rules are now, but back in the early 80’s when I got a series 3, selling more than what existed would have been considered fraudulent and illegal. probably related to the virus? having the gov making illegal for gamestop from opening thus forcing it to close making the shares 0$/u? you know making illegal to open because ""not essential"" This is going to sound ridiculous but have you heard of counterfeiting stock? Look at shares outstanding and shares held by institutions/insiders. Only 71mil shares of GME have ever been issued. You have clearly never taken the series 7, because you don't even know the difference between a short and a naked short. Plus you still have the risks of unlimited losses with regular shorting, no need to jump to the naked conclusion. How are you so certain? These dumb fucks don't understand half the terminology they are using. Isn’t it shorting stocks that you don’t even have in your possession? It's what Tobias Funke did, right? They are allowed to say whatever they want, and it’s a common tactic to placate the squeeze. The stonk is still being shorted by over 100%. They may have closed out their original position, but it doesn’t mean they haven’t doubled down. Oh did they? Bot or agent provocateur here ^^^^ Nope, they are still massively short Downvoted for just pointing facts, the state of reddit today. No they did not, stop lying Short interest for GME went 138% M/T, 118% W/TH now 121% MOFO are doubling down and bringing their hedge fund buddies, sure they’re reading this now!!! [source ](https://www.highshortinterest.com/) You mean lockups? Yep, those are something investors agree to in exchange for lower management fees. That's not fuckery, that's negotiated. You don't think the institutional investors investing in large hedge funds know to look at risk-adjusted returns? To the guy that talked about a performance fee and then deleted his comment. Lol. First, nobody is paying a performance fee if they don't, you know, perform. Second of all the days of even 20% performance fees are pretty much done, with the caveat that the founder of Melvin comes from SAC Capital which notoriously charged 3/30. Nobody is paying any performance fee, let alone the absurd 25 thrown out there, for losing money. Go learn before you speak. Yearly average return of 30% with a monthly drawdown of 53% sounds fantastic. Diversify People keep suggesting this but I haven’t seen anything to back it up. The federal government does not have a history of propping up hedge funds that made terrible bets. The only exception would be when there might be broad, economy-destroying fallout (eg 2008) and that doesn’t apply to this situation at all. Yeah exactly. These people can’t afford to have money sitting bc greed, so when shit hits the fan, the problem is really exacerbated So if his other positions include NOK, BB, and AMC and he pulls out of his short positions, then does it mean there's a chance those stocks could see some action? >other “smart” money also piled into the trade. That’s what seems to be ignored most on WSB. The others involved. Why wasn’t the VW short squeeze infinite? Because the longs sold and the shorts got out. Hedge funds on the long position are in the business of making money, not sending a message. For the “infinite” part of the short squeeze to work, and actually bankrupt Melvin and up and up, it’ll take more than the shares collectively held by retail, I can only guess of course. I hope I’m wrong and they’re right because it would serve as a wake up call for other shorts to drive businesses under, but it’s been a wild ride either way so far. Why are people assuming that they didn't rebalance at all? Those that short this at peak will take Melvin’s place No fundamental l/s equity hedge fund has 10x leverage. Maybe some quant funds running systematic low risk strats do, but that's a different breed. I wish. Yes you can, you can short it, while buying call options. You limit the loss to the call strike price. You won't make as much money on the short. Luckily there are more things you can do than just buy and hold It’s mostly other people’s money. It’s a hedge fund. Cant the downward stock price pressure make it difficult to raise money for the company? Short selling is also a way for MM to cover their short puts. Of course short selling can help take a company down. We only have to look to very recent history for an example. Hertz would have survived bankruptcy if short selling were illegal. I didn't say they're ""ruthless"". But I do think that at the present time in the current market environment, they're corrupt and preying on retail investors using leveraged money because they're not satsified with all the handouts and investor class bailouts they've gotten so far this past year. I'm sorry, but I think the quality of peer reviewed academic work in general has deteriorated so much that only a moron would base investing opinions involving their own money on them. Most studies nowadays lack intellectually coherent connections between phenomenology and experimental frameworks and most studies can't be replicated, even if those publishing them did get all the statistics and technical aspects of the experiment right. If you have to appeal to academia for something as obvious, current and momentous as this current market situation, you take long alternative routes to relevance. The biggest ludicrous leap is how you try to label people who disapprove of short selling vulture behavior in 2020 and 2021 as ""anti-vaxxers"". Those tactics seem awfully familiar. Did you use to post online in support of Monsanto? Or are you obsessed with people who don't take vaccines so that you see them everywhere you look? No way, it could've been any stock shorted beyond it's market capitalization while it is being price as to-be-sold for scraps meanwhile a turnaround story is unfolding and the company isn't even headed to bankruptcy in the first place i.e. hardly ""any stock"". But yeah they have to keep covering their fees, but even with 30% borrowing rates they are not down -50% due to borrowing fees. They can't actually hold on forever de facto due to said fees, but they could hold on for a while if they are banking on the stock crashing. They could also not be forced into margin calls if their risk is obfuscated to whoever is responsible of said margin calls (good luck hiding to your retail broker that you really don't have the collateral). Honestly it's a long story and I wager we both have read quite a bit on it so I won't go on here, the doc I wrote to explain the situation to a friend took me 13 pages and I missed stuff. So they lost market cap? Are they a public company? Please do! Fuck these arrogant Wall Street pricks! They still are right. Long term gamestop is going to zero not the moon. It is just a matter if they can afford to hold their short positions open and weather the storm. The higher the price goes the more appealing the shorts are. If you're never punished for your greedy actions, why would you stop? They were perfectly logical in being greedy. It's just that this time people took notice. the media organisations like to manipulate the people for their own advantage... which is why fake news exist. I have the impression their reporting is pretty solid. Like the reporter who went after Theranos, he wasn’t told to drop it even though Theranos was pressuring Rupert Murdoch to drop the investigation (Murdoch ended up losing over 100 million on his investment in Theranos). Murdoch let the investigation continue. I don’t think they are maliciously wrong. But Jim Cramer specifically mentions them in his interview from 2006 about misleading journalists that didnt really understand what he was doing. So they have at least around 3 months and 6 days of bleeding like they did in January. I know most of that was in the last 2 weeks or so, which would bring that down to 6 weeks give or take. Math check out? When they go low, we go high? [deleted] Holding. They have been getting away with doing this for so long, started believing there was no way it would bite them in the ass. I am sure the shock of what happened still has not worn off. The belief they are the smartest ones in the room, is now making them look foolish. Because up until WSB it was a practically sure fire bet. At worst the company staved off bankruptcy and Melvin lost a much smaller sum. WSB was a true wild card for them. This! 10 years ago some guy in risk calculated the chance of a short squeeze in this scenario at like 1 in a million or less. So the hedge fund guys started doing it and doing it. But changes in technology dropped the chances to 1 in 500,000 then retail analyst dropped it further. Now /r/wsb shows up and has dropped the chance to 1 in 20 or something super likely but the hedge funds got the answer they wanted from risk all those years ago and never updated their models. The real reason they're doing this? They thought they passed their 1 in a million shot when they got squoze on TSLA. They gave in then thinking, ""no way that happens again for a decade."" So when the squeeze started again on GME they didn't take it seriously and doubled down. [deleted] i'd guess it's because wallstreet is floated by underlying federal interest rates for borrowing, and given the absolute brrrr of the federal reserve, they feel absolute invincible. Imagine how cheap calls would have been way OTM. I bet they wish they hedged now. Killing people is risky. Yet serial killers manage to accurate death toll, no? Same shit. Complacence. When you think you’ve pwn’d the system, the dopamine goes a bit higher every time. Once you lose sight of what normalcy is, that’s when it bites you in the ass. They do this kind of shit all the time. This time they got caught. Google counterfeit stock 2.0 if you want a glimpse of what goes on [deleted] What kind of BS is this? Last week if your broker could locate shares you would have been able to short GME Here I am on reddit taking a quick break from CFA level 3 study and you post a sentence almost ripped out of the active management portfolio construction chapter I am trying to take a break from. Terrible timing https://www.marketbeat.com/stocks/NYSE/GME/short-interest/ The same shares are borrowed twice. [https://www.nasdaq.com/market-activity/stocks/gme/institutional-holdings](https://www.nasdaq.com/market-activity/stocks/gme/institutional-holdings) This shows institutional holdings at >100%. when you borrow shares, you well them to another counterparty, who may then lend those shares to yet another party that in turn shorts them. So theoretically there is no limit on how much short interest there can be as long as there are enough matched buyers and sellers, and willingness to lend shares. There is nothing inherently bad or nefarious about short interest above 100%, but it does create vulnerability to a short squeeze exactly like the one happening now. If lots of participants pile into a short position, it can drive the price down in a feedback loop just like the one that drives it up. Short interest over 100% means nothing. Suppose Alice buys a share at the IPO and puts them in her account but makes them available to borrow. The hedge fund borrows that particular share and sells it, now Bob has it and he is willing to lend. The hedge fund borrows that particular share and sells it, now Charlie has it and he is willing to lend. The hedge fund borrows that particular share and sells it, now David has it and he is willing to lend. The hedge fund borrows that particular share and sells it, now Evan has it and he is willing to lend. ... One share sold short a million fucking times. There is no limit on short interest. ----- Now it is true that as new purchasers buy the shares they may be less likely to be willing to short, so it will get harder to source shares as the short interest gets larger, but it needs not be a new buyer. If I am willing to lend my shares I do so because (a) I believe the stock is a good but at that price, and (b) that the interest is good compensation, otherwise I would just sell my shares. Basically I'm in the lending business because I think lending is a good trade, and if it's a good trade, I'm willing to do it again and again and again as long as my capital allows. short answer, you can short 1 stock many times since they are loand out when shorting, thats how u get the greedy 140% SI I wondered the same thing. Google counterfeit stock 2.0, your blood will boil No it wasn't. It had hit bottom and was rebounding as they made the switch to online and digital. The stock price was driven down due to artificial shorting due to greed by hedge funds. This company has a lot more revenue than many other retailers and has huge brand recognition and an expanding online presence. Gamestop has a path to sustained success. It is ridiculous for people to start spouting about fundamentals when they clearly don't know the fundamentals and refuse to put the blame for the current stock price on the hedge funds that overshorted. Hedge funds fucked up the functioning of the market with this stock. Hedge funds artificially depressed the stock price by selling over 130% more stock than is actually available. Activist investor announces large stock purchase. Price starts to rise as retail investors start to see value in gamestop. Activist investor sends letter to board outlining plan for pivot to digital &online plus store revamp. Stock price goes up as retail likes the look of the plan. Activist investor is given 3 board seats. Retail loves it and starts buying in earnest. Price is driven up as shorts frantically try to cover their short position only to realize that their borrowed shares are greater than all of the shares available. Price rockets as more press and publicity and more retail investors buy shares. Shorts start selling other assets and cutting deals with other hedgies to reset shorts at ever higher prices. Shitty brokerage firms start restricting trading driving more publicity and more institutional and retail interest. Gamma squeezes start to happen as more and more call options become ITM. GME stock price visits the moon. Melvin Capital goes in to liquidation as investors pull their money from a firm that has zero risk management because they are too greedy and arrogant. Eh I’d counter the good analysis thing. This thing has been rising for the last 6 months well before wsb got ahold of it. There’s something to be said for not being in a crowded trade. At least cap your exposure in the most crowded trade in the market. Not everyone got in within the last week. A ton of folks saw value at $5 per share. These hedge funds kept averaging in every time it went up. It was honestly shit analysis and they should have known better. The amount of leverage being used is likely insane. No clue if GameStop goes up or down from here but shorting this was a bad trade at $5, horrible trade at $50 and absolutely crazy at $150. They have lost serious money on a crappy bet. That’s the game though. ""Amature"" He never said he passed (and a passing score is like a C- anyway). [deleted] Even then, you can mitigate some of the losses, though it costs you a bit in returns. There's nothing stopping those funds from also having some sort of protective call to help cap the losses. Maintaining hedged positions is kinda what they do. There's no need to naked short here. Naked short is when you can't find the shares, but do it anyway. More common in attacks on smaller companies. I suppose I'm not. More it's not something that is required to get into the current situation. What I'm seeing is ""short interest is over 100%, there must be naked shorting!"" But that's a false statement. The way shorting works can lead to that without any naked shorting. Naked shorting is selling shares that don't exist. If you borrow shares from someone and sell those, it's not a naked short. So, what can happen is I can lend you shares, you sell them to sally. Sally has no indication that they're borrowed, they're just shares in her account. Sally sees that people are paying a bunch of money to borrow shares and lends them to Bob, Bob sells them to Jim. ... At this point there's one set of shares and 200% short interest with no naked selling happening. All perfectly legal. They had their shorts open for many weeks. If they were naked there would have been numerous failures to deliver. It would be pretty obvious and would have caught the attention of the SEC. It is much easier to just borrow the damn shares than try to have manage the legal risk of opening long term naked shorts. Naked shorts are really only something that happens during intraday trading. A share jumps up, or an arbitrage opportunity opens up, and you just have to short that stock right now before the opportunity disappears. So you might short it and then seek the borrow. The vast majority of the time you find the borrow and nobody even realizes you were naked. Sometimes you can't then it's a failure to deliver situation, and the SEC starts asking questions. It's so fucking frustrating and the moment you point it out you get accused of being a shill. This is basically a new version of trumpisim, guess we can't escape it even if the man is gone. Yes that is a naked short, but whether or not your short is naked does not affect the risk of the trade or the maximum size of the possible loss. These hedge funds were short, but they didn't have naked shorts. If they were naked we would know from failure to deliver. If you pull up the SEC fails from the second half of December 2020 there where 170k fails for GME on the 15th. That is a lot, but there are 51 million shares in the float. 170k shares is a drop in the bucket. If the short interest was around 100% then less than 0.3% of the shorts were naked that day. It oscillates through the month, but the peak is less than a million fails and one day there were something like 10k fails. Short sellers were generally finding the borrow. https://www.sec.gov/data/foiadocsfailsdatahtm That you haven't borrowed. Basically, in a naked short, you would be delivering nonexistent shares to a counterparty that bought shares. Regardless of naked or not, shares don't belong to you when you short, as you need to pay it back. There's zero evidence that Melvin has doubled down. I don't doubt that other institutions have since shorted, however. Fuck off, you're either a brainwashed rube or the actual bot here trying to spread disinfromation. Is that not the case? Everyone was reporting that as of Thursday/Friday last week. >Bot or agent provocateur here ^^^^ Relax. Source? It's been like this for a while, hah. So your source is the short volume? > ...sure they’re reading this now!!! F U lol Those are just guesses right? Short interest only comes out twice a month I thought? Particularly, that 120% figure is from Jan 15. Please stop representing misinformation or literal guesses as accurate information. IF the shorts were covered, (which idk if they are) this is just a pump and dump (which can still make you a lot of money as long as you get out near the top but against other retail investors, not hedge funds) Noone said it was fuckery. It is generally to allow the hedgie to get involved in non-liquid assets. Can't have to constantly sell assets to cover withdrawal requests. I see that Melvin has raised even more money. What are the odds they are still trying to short GME in order to get their losses back? Melvin gets liquidated due to sunk cost fallacy. I don't think Melvin tells them what goes in the sausage and I don't think hedge fund investors care as long as returns are greater than 20%/year. Melvin isn't required to report any of that stuff so I bet they tell investors the bare minimum. ""I can get a hell of a good look at a t-bome steak by sticking my head up the bull's ass, but I would rather take the butcher's word for it."" --- Big Tom Callahan I will see his comment. Wu Tang! That's why I give blowies and handies Look up Long Term Capital Management and their liquidation in 1998. The purpose of a hedge fund is to invest money and not have it sitting around. Despite these negative rates I don’t think cash funds are a thing yet If less then half of Americans owned 1 share of GME, it would be enough... and many own more then one. It’s 84/16 the last I heard with retail on the small end. That’s why I believe the market dipped Friday, get some cash in the books Are you kidding me? Obviously that’s true, that doesn’t make it easier, they are paid in direct relation to the wins and losses. Of course, but it also reallocates capital from stockholders in bad companies into investor hands to allocate into good companies. I'm curious how you think that short selling can ""prey"" on other investors, retail or otherwise. For an activity to be predatory that implies that its presence makes others worse off. Again, short selling a stock can't make the company go bankrupt or underperform. It can drive the price down temporarily, but it can't do so permanently. Shorting is costly and risky, so by its nature almost all shorts are short-term position. Without an external catalyst, shorts will soon unwind, buy back the stock at a loss (since most stocks go up over time), and the price will recover. Again, this is all consistent with the empirical evidence. Short sellers primarily make money by anticipating the release of bad news related to the company. We know that short sellers aren't causing this, because most of the time, the events have already occurred before the shorts have opened their position. I.e. a quarter that's nearly ended but not yet announced, or fraud that's been ongoing for years. Rather than ""preying"" on retail investors, this is enormously helpful to them. When the shares of underperforming companies fall that's good for ordinary investors. It makes sure that they're less likely to buy into bad companies, and if they at least they get a more fair price reflecting the discount. If anything short sellers significantly assist ordinary investors, by incorporating the presence of private information into public prices. Melvin has raised(borrowed) a lot of money since this started. Its likely that they are paying large fees on that money and on liquidating other assets to avoid their margin calls, which is part of the -50%. They are private. You can't buy stock in them, but I think they have some public disclosures though. It’s very gullible if you think Redditors aren’t doing the same Read the article. and news stories. That helps them cause they own a lot of GME... I've got this painful feeling in my gut that these fuckers are gonna slime their way out of this somehow. All the brokers, exchanges, clearing houses seem to be aiding and abetting them. It’s the same greed and hubris that we see time and time again. They play with our financial systems and stability for their own sake and no one else. A bunch of people on a website didn’t cause this problem, and it disgusts me how the media wants to paint that picture. I'll just add that the young generation is used to quick changes in the environment while seniors' conservative approach works best when things are stable. “Smartest guy in the room, and I am in the room too” EL-p (sorta) “No one else was in the room when it happened” A Black Swan you could say Even before WSB, Gamestop did come back. They were at 18 dollars a share after a low of 3 dollars in March as Ryan Cohen came on board and performance wasn't as bad as was thought. WSB just turned it from a mild loss to a catastrophic loss. Doesn't this imply there's a gentleman's agreement not to fuck with each other in the hedge fund world? What wsb did you could do with any hedge fund with a few billion dollars. There have been many short squeeze stocks before. It's one of the things in late 1999 and early 2000 that was driving up Dot Com stocks. This is maybe the biggest one since then. Yep, a lot of people just look at a fund generating 30% returns and say ""Well why isn't my fund doing that?"" without considering the risks. So you get funds like Melvin that take huge massive leveraged positions. That pays off for a time, but eventually they lose big. So direct cash transfers to wsb? Gotcha. That doesn't really apply to short positions... Seriously. It’s a cost of doing business. [deleted] Every college dropout on Reddit has been awarded a PhD in Finance and a license to practice (and create) securities law this week. Haven't you heard? Same ones that became overnight virologists last year and FBI agents after the Boston Bombing. Can you explain how to understand this? All I can see is 1/15/2021 ->61,780,000 While an Outstanding Shares:102,270,000 shares That doesn't seem >100%? What Am I missing? [deleted] LOL. Yeah, their path to success was selling the same products amazon, walmart, target are, but starting now. I’m glad the hedge funds got fucked, but get real, what a joke. There is no path to success there. boil it down: they found a cheap source of money and pumped it into a chop shop operation. Thanks Eh, it’s fine. I did misuse the term naked shorting and it’s a term being misused freaking everywhere right now. So I’ll take a little abuse if someone can learn from my mistake. All I was really trying to say is that you learn that short position losses can be unlimited in pretty much your first week on the job. Well with 140% short interest, its possible someone was naked shorting. So when push comes to shove, who gets to keep the share? There was failure to deliver. Absolutely. And when you explain things to them they just bring out ever more outlandish conspiracy theories. Yeah that’s what I said You can't ""deliver nonexistent shares."" All shares have a number and Cede&Co maintains a record of the holder of record of every single last share. I can't just make up a share number, or claim to transfer you someone else's share because the banks that manage these recipes would not recognize those orders. A naked short results in a failure to deliver, because there is nothing to deliver. ---- Covered/uncovered is a term used with options. If you sell a call for a stock you do not own, that is an uncovered call, and is a short position. It is sometimes called a ""naked call"" but nothing is fabricated, and nothing has to be delivered unless the option is exercised. You don't have to do anything until the other party exercises the option, and options are almost never exercised. Generally the proper thing to do with an American option is to simply sell it. There are entire hedge funds whose business is buying up options, matching them off, and cancelling them with each other in such a way that nothing actually has to be exercised. Lol - ok. I don’t think they’ve closed their whole position, and that it was largely a lie trying to manipulate people into selling so they can cover. https://twitter.com/ihors3/status/1355194252674953219 He also posted for AMC if you scroll down Its likely they had to raise money just to cover their existing shorts. 1. Hedge funds regularly report their net and gross exposures to their investors (usually monthly), and many will also report their top 5 or 10 positions. I have no idea what Melvin reports, but that's the norm in the industry at least. And yes, hedge funds might lie to the media and to outsiders, but straight up lying to your investors is real bad, like Bernie Madoff go to jail bad. 2. Even if you don't know their exposures, as a potential investor, you surely could ask for their monthly returns inception to date and see what their risk is like there. Melvin is not a new fund, they have years of track record to look at. In that situation, the feds organized LTCM’s creditors to buy them out. The government did not give or loan them money. I don’t think anyone talking about a bailout means anything like “at the behest of a federal bank, they sell everything they own at pennies on the dollar to other private financial institutions who are also taking a loss on this investment.” For you and me, the highest yielding ""cash-like"" asset we have access to is a money-market fund, but institutions can sometimes lend money to each other for really short-term periods at higher rates as money-managers might have liquidity requirements to fulfill. In times of low market volatility, hedge funds might not like how most financial derivatives/stocks are priced, and might think removing the risk altogether to lend cash is optimal during some periods. Perfect! They don't lose money on losses unless they are invested in it themselves. They just get zero. Eh, they’re guaranteed 2% of assets under management under the usual HF fee arrangement, which is a lot >y're ""ruthless"". But I do think that at the present time in the current market environment, they'r yes thank you. Oh a company has exaggerated earnings and is an out-right fraud? yes ban short selling and let it go to the moon You are guessing, may just as well be to secure the collateral. The 30% is annualized, their position would have to be over a hundred billion (can't be bothered to do the exact math but it would be enormous) to be worth $2.75B already. Obviously just my opinion, and FWIW I bet we are both GME bulls, I just think we shouldn't jump to conclusions prematurely. I still don't understand what the 12.5bn represents. NAV? I'm not saying they aren't but you were talking about fake news like it didn't exist. They will do anything and everything available to them and create some new avenues never tried before. The only moral compass guiding them is: GET MONEY. The fact they loosing it, and may loose all of it if this keeps up, has put them in a very uncomfortable and unfamiliar position. It's one thing to take ""their"" money, to do it publicly, on ""their"" turf, with ""their"" rules? Now they on TV crying about it, behind the scenes they mad, embarrassed it's everywhere. What they don't get, is the more they hurt by it, the more we love it. I love these stocks. My concern is if they manage to pull some snake backroom deal to get them to declare bankruptcy. It seems like their only exit strategy at this point. *edit: I mean arrange GameStop to declare bankruptcy. The politicians will come bail them out. These hedge funds own plenty of people in the right places. Tax payers bend over! Well now they’re all trying to pump silver as that’s one of melvins biggest holdings it seems. All of the media is complicit Champath on CNBC talked about ""idea dinners"". I bet hedge funds chop up the market ticker by ticker at these events so they don't step on each other's turf. Nah, bankruptcy and start again with Melvin 2.0. Same people, same job, new name and LLC I concur. Sadly I am illiterate & the significant other of my spouse requires new things. Short float is shares short/float. Float is shares not held by insiders. Since many shares are held by insiders the float is lower. The float is about 50 million and 61 million shorted shares. Some shorts covered but the shorted shares used to be 70 million. That where the 120% and 140% comes from. Short float is with short shares divided by float. Outstanding shares have nothing to do. Seems like Marketbeat still has very old numbers of outstanding, wtf I certainly won't use their data. Starting from calendar Q3 2019 GME bought back a lot of shares, from 102 to 70M outstanding. A lot of those shares are not considered a part of the float as they are restricted in some manner. It is possible, just not necessary. If I loaned it to you, you need to return it. There's some price where someone currently hold it will sell it. The registered owner of the share is whoever Cede&Co says it is. So that is the last purchaser of the share. Everyone who lends out is taking a credit risk that the share won't be returned, but they get paid for that risk. If a share isn't returned they could eventually take the other party to court and sue for damages. The court will force you to either get a share or pay the other party what they need to buy that share themselves. Yes something like 0.3% of the float on December 15th. yeah at the moment we have a mirror of a zerohedge article on the front page of this subreddit. seriously the state of Reddit is probably at it's worst. Then I misunderstood. In both cases you don't actually possess the shares (naked = shares don't exist, uncovered = shares transferred to counterparty). I'm missing the word attempted, so you're correct on the semantics. In a naked short you would be attempting to deliver nonexistent shares. Never said the trade would clear nor wanted to insinuate it would.   I'm quite aware that naked and uncovered are usually semantics that apply to the derivatives markets, specifically options. However, you can technically refer to an existing short position as an uncovered one (dumb and redundant, but not incorrect). All reputable sources point to Melvin being out of GME, including the OP article discussing Melvin's complete reassessment of its entire portfolio since last week. There's far more institutional money on both sides of this stock than just Melvin. Don't let yourself get so emotionally invested. You're calling me a bot or provocateur based on feelings. None of that means that Melvin, specifically, opened new short positions. If you read the article in the OP, Melvin has reevaluated its risk management strategy. It seems like you really want Melvin to still be involved in shorting GME, so you're willing to read more into this info than what is shown. My only point is that I don’t think it’s easier for them to be reckless because it’s ‘other people’s money’ The short interest is 30% annualized, but we don't know the interest rate on the billions in loans they took out from other traders to avoid liquidation. I would bet it isn't cheap though. AUM [deleted] No. They want people to pile on because the initial mover gets better returns that way. It’s basically their version of wsb, but a handful of hedge funds have more collective capital to move behind a position than wsb could with all its members Normally, yes, but Melvin's failure is high profile enough that probably won't work. Also a dumb metric as the most likely shares to lend are probably non-float shares (if they can be lent). If am somehow locked up and can't sell my shares, I'm much more likely to want to lend them. Oh okay, thanks! I’m not sure what you’re after. The short interest is really the point with the options expiring on Friday. So maybe it’s Melvin or maybe it’s one of their backers. Fuck them all the same. When your worst case is that you net zero, it’s a lot easier to stomach than losing all of the money yourself. How is that difficult to grasp? Lol you must’ve not worked at one of these institutions. The people that run these organizations are incredibly reckless bc they are so incredibly confident that they always make the right decision You’re uninformed and worse, hostile about it. Look up moral hazard in the context of asymmetric information problems in economics. Next time think about where your expertise actually lies before you call people idiots. So this is client money not theirs? The amount of people that spell losing wrong is freakin crazy I see it all the goddam time I can imagine they have a ""pile on is fine but I won't squeeze you if you don't squeeze me"" Marvin 1.1 then As an insider you are usually locked up and prevented from lending your shares or entering into any other arrangement to sell or synthetically sell your shares. Insider shares are not available to be borrowed. Yes makes sense. >I’m not sure what you’re after. For people to stop spreading misinformation. Don't tell me I'm wrong when all you have are assumptions. Depends on the person and behavioral psychology. It's hard to say that in a blanket manner. I for example wouldn't be able to stomach being a financial advisor. I'd be killing myself for every dollar I lose belonging to someone else I think they are overwhelming treating the money like their own. They aren’t reckless, that’s why they’re rich Stfu arrogant idiot Correct, although generally, founders and employees will have units too. Based on my limited understanding the fund has to have a stake in the pot too, in addition to what the poster above mentioned. Would be included in that net figure. It is the most annoying mistake for me since it completely changes the pronunciation unlike the other common errors Yes, I see it alot. The same happens with there, their, they're. No honor amongst thieves None of this is true. Less insiders than closely held/founder shares. I doubt zuckerberg had any restrictions on lending his shares held in his foundation, and he obviously cannot (and will not) sell them in bulk, but why not lend a few out to generate some income? I showed you more than assumptions. The stock is massively shorted and options came due. Whether or not it is Melvin’s is beside the point. Either you don’t understand what’s happening or you’re playing games. Sure it is. Vast majority of public companies prevent employees, officers and directors from being allowed to lend their shares because they view it as a synthetic sale. Also, lock ups are not unusual at all. Typically used during IPOs but often for founders and early investors they enter into shareholder agreements that prevent sale of the shares even after the IPO lockup period. Please don’t post when you are not sure what you are talking about. It’s a disservice to those who are part of the forum. If you want to make stuff up go post it on r/wallstreetbets. Seems to be the mentality you have anyhow. > Whether or not it is Melvin’s is beside the point. ?! My very first comment: > Melvin already closed its GME position out. We've been talking about Melvin this entire time. I'm done responding. No, it absolutely is not. None of this is true. Report this guy for misinformation. The position may have transferred hands, but it’s the same position. It hasn’t closed. Telling people “Marvin closed gme” without stating that the short interest is still mostly unchanged is misleading. If you’re holding a hot potato and you hand it to your buddy then there’s still a hot potato. You didn’t solve the problem, you just moved it. Cool source. Good DD. Reported for misinformation." Visa and Mastercard block Russian banks from their networks after sanctions,3924,https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/01/visa-mastercard-block-russian-financial-institutions-after-sanctions.html,"Um, that seems huge Does this actually mean people in russia cant pay with their Visa & MasterCard cards or is this something not for the end user? Businesses hopping on board with canceling Russia just goes to show you how large and influential corporations have become. Maybe the Discover card will make a comeback What more can we say other than “Russias FUCKED seven ways to Sunday!” More coverage at: * [Mastercard blocks Russian firms; bitcoin rises after latest sanctions on Russia – business live (msn.com)](https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/mastercard-blocks-russian-firms-bitcoin-rises-after-latest-sanctions-on-russia-business-live/ar-AAUs2e6) * [Mastercard blocks Russian firms; bitcoin rises as Russia expected to turn to crypto – business live (theguardian.com)](https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2022/mar/01/mastercard-blocks-russian-firms-bitcoin-rises-russia-expected-turn-crypto-business-live) * [Mastercard blocks multiple Russian financial institutions from network (reuters.com)](https://www.reuters.com/article/ukraine-crisis-mastercard/mastercard-blocks-multiple-russian-financial-institutions-from-network-idUSKBN2KY36U) --- ^(I'm a bot to find news from different sources.) [^(Report an issue)](https://www.reddit.com/user/MultiSourceNews_Bot/comments/k5pcrc/multisourcenews_bot_info/) ^(or PM me.) The sanctions is grabbing Russia by the balls this is huge Damn while world canceling Russia. I wonder if putin felt it was still worth it or, he has some aizen 5d chess plan and its all going according to plan. It must really suck to be a Russian citizen right now…. I mean even more than usual Being a Russia must suck so much right now. [No hockey](https://www.iihf.com/en/news/32301/iihf_council_announces_decisions_over_russia_belar) [No soccer](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/28/sports/soccer/fifa-russia-ban.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur) [No movies](https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/28/disney-pauses-theatrical-releases-in-russia-condemns-invasion-of-ukraine.html) [No flights](https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1572526/EU-news-airspace-russian-airlines-Vladimir-Putin-Russia-Ukraine-war-latest-update) [No money](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/russians-line-up-at-banks-as-currency-plummets-in-face-of-sanctions) ....and they can't buy anything with what little money is left because your [bank can't transfer money](https://time.com/6152156/russian-ruble-plunges/) and [your credit card doesn't work anymore](https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/01/visa-mastercard-block-russian-financial-institutions-after-sanctions.html) Guess you better go protest since there's nothing else to do in Russia. That ones gonna hurt BAD The switch which unblocks the Russian banks is waiting to be switched off. It’s located in the sidewalk, directly under Putin’s 10th story window. putin’s a fraud Bitcoins of Russian people have also to be blocked, is it possible for the US administration to take measures ? This is going to sting Good fuck russian citizens again i guess /s That’s a big step Is this so putin doesnt have to base his economy on the us dollar standard? What about the payment for the energy that EU used from Russia? It’s 30% of Russian’s GDP. It would be a nice ball to cut that one off. VISA and MASTERCARD are tanking businesses. People will soon use crypto currency to transact. Garbage credit cards think they have the power. Soon to have NONE! ​ Remove all your money from banks and highly controlled stock market. Cancel culture has reached a new peak. Is it right for cc companies to have this kind of power? Im not saying ANYTHING about russia, but think of the precedent. What if one day people can have their card shut off because they belong to a certain group? Like what happened with the trucker convoy having their donations seized by TD bank and the government. Crazy times. What worries me is that if a country is blocked up from the global financial system what other options do they have besides war. Fuck Russia, btw, but there needs to be a path to forgiveness. (Maybe getting rid of Putin?) Big if true Hurray, can you unblock pornhub please! I’m wondering if all these sanctions are becoming known by the average Russian, and what sort of uprising might take place domestically when they find out. 70% of Russia’s military is in Ukraine. Will the rest have to defend Moscow? I'm not quite sure it is useful/effectivity. Where Are those American Express cork soakers??? They can just use discover Can me crazy, but I feel like this live only affects Russian citizens and literally zero percent of Russia and it's military actions. They saw this coming. This move seems to only hurt regular ass people who also despise Russia for their terrible fucking bullshit Good One cruise missle $1.5m. One tank $6.5m. Telling Putin to “go fuck yourself?” Priceless. What’s the role of crypto in all of this..? I think the Kardashian card works there… Banks control everyone!! Comply or be banished. Gigihgihkbokhhoboohhhoh. Fucujgjjvjgjufudchcjvkvjvjvjvjvjvkkvjvkvjvj.)8(8))&)&?&((&(&&&(??&?&?&?&?&?&?$(($(&&((&(& Givjvmbmbkbhbhkb Bypass to short deletion Does anyone know if Russia can get around this limitation? From what I hear they were already prepared to have their own ethernet so I'm wondering if they will be able to get around this limitation as well. MasterCard/Mastero (red and blue master card logo) showed up in a pic of captured Russian soldier gear. Is MasterCard still being used to pay Russian soldiers within Russia?[Mastero / MasterCard](imgur.com/KMzhdc4) Anyone wants to share financial sites subscriptions like SeekingAlpha, CNBC, Bloomberg? PM me please. Hope we can get to a couple bucks a month and enjoy the news together! I also like to share Disney+, Google One (storage), Spotify, etc if anyone is interested. Not so much for local payments. Russia has developed an alternative. Beyond their borders however is another story. The bigger story is that Euroclear has stopped accepting payments in rubles. That’s gonna sting really bad. Yes in part. There is a list of Russian banks that visa will no longer work with. For example - when you swipe your visa at the gas station, the transaction is processed by visa but the funds are actually lent by a bank. If a Russian has a visa that was issued by a bank on the visa/MasterCard sanctions list, then the card won’t work. If a Russian has a visa that was issued by a bank not on the list, it should work… for now. Russia has its own domestic network called MIR. All domestic credit & debit transactions in Russia- Visa, MasterCard, etc. run on the MIR network. However, cross-border transactions run on Visa’s & MasterCard’s networks. So what this means is that Russian people with a Visa or MasterCard are no longer able to make cross-border purchases with their cards. So this hurts Russians living abroad that have a card issued by a Russian bank, as well as anybody in Russia who wants to order something online or via telephone from outside the country. Cards will likely still work for domestic transactions within Russia, but will not work for cross-border transactions. The distinction is whether the bank that issues the card is in a different country from the merchants bank, so this includes a lot of online merchants. Same pls elaborate Visa and Matercard aren't ""hopping on board"", they are legally compelled to act to comply with the sanctions, or protect themselves from financial damages due to the sanctions. [deleted] lol, as opposed to the global economy ever being driven by something other than “corporations”? [deleted] [deleted] Russia’s getting what they want kid No He is playing in 9D chess of course. Nobody died yet, everything is fine. Ruble is worth more than ever. -Kremlin. Whats crazy to me is why would they protest. I mean it is literally the E.U that did all this to you because of a decision their government and not them made. And chances are this will give a great oppurtunity for putin to look like he is the only one that wants to help the russian citizens and not the world that just ruined your whole life as of now. Call me crazy but we might have just made a small problem a little bigger. You’re a joke Nice Kinda sorta some of the exchanges would but some won’t, and some physically cannot. But that’s also kinda a big part about Bitcoin is not being influenced by geopolitics. Dude, no. Crypto can’t be fucked with [deleted] Yup. Germany relies heavily on Russian gas to keep warm, so they may not be so willing to cut that one off. Kinda a case of cutting off your nose to spite your face, even if you have a good reason to do so. That being said, Germany's leaders may want to run a poll or float ideas to their populous, basically asking the people ""Are you ready to be cold in retaliation for Russia's invasion of Ukraine?"" and see what the response is. How is this remotely related to cancel culture? This isn’t cancel culture you twit. Ukrainians are getting evaporated by thermobaric missiles and this fuckin nerd is hand-wringing about “cancel culture” Are you really comparing a Russian invasion to some crybabies blocking some roads? You’re really, *really* grasping at straws here. They're complying with US sanctions. US issued cards won't work in Cuba or Iran either. This is nothing new Lmao, is that the best you Moscow boys could cook up? The idea is to mount so much pressure the Oligarchs and the military start a coup against Putin. You answered your own question. Their leader needs to go. That’s the action everyone is waiting to see. Their options are: 1.) Keep war - lose economy $$$ 2.) Forget war - rejoin modern world Yeah, like this stuff is definitely an inconvenience but I feel like Russians already had work around due to previous sanctions. For example a Russian artist I follow will accept commissions but won’t ship out of Russia and you have to wire the funds I believe. Basically puts all the burden of getting it out of the country on the buyer. For someone who doesn't have time to google because I'm at work and will probably forget to google it later, what is Euroclear and how big of an issue is that for Russian government/people? Thanks for explaining! Does that involve all the world or only countries that are applying sanctions? Wouldn’t Visa and Mastercard still be conducting business in Russia even if it was only using the MIR network? Why are all cards shut off? Aren't their sanctions driven by government mandate here? I hear they have great cash back offers on Vodka! Just wait LOL an actual Russian shill. LOL you guys really are FUCKED. The entire world despises you more than North Korea. lmao >Russia’s getting what they want So they want to be the new Venezuela? A worthless shit-hole. Interesting. You're right, Russia has no balls. Sending kids and normal working class men into a invasion of a sovereign country. Enjoy the downfall. No, they're not dumb. They might be used to privation, but they're not dumb. Already we're seeing protests in Russia over this. The average Russian might not care about Ukraine, but they have access to media. They know that this is Putin's doing, not the average person, and that Putin alone chose this path. Go back to Moscow, pig fucker. You are a pig. Yes, this is exactly what I mean. Because they will not cut it off anytime soon to be remotely helpful to the situation today, I will not expect these countries will do anything that Putin care or worry about. Its not really thats a good point. I meant similar to the situation in canada Im not talking about ukraine im talking about what visa and mastercard did. Shut the fuck up you simp Im not talking about the invasion dumbass im talking about what visa and mastercard did. Obviously the invasion is fucked. > Are you really comparing a Russian invasion to some crybabies blocking some roads? Yes. Why aren't you? You act like every event exists in a vacuum and bears to relation to anything else that happens. Gottem Sounds good they should do that. Lol Good old American regime change! We are the good guys 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸 Do you mean Roman Booteen? He won't ship stuff from the country. It means that he doesn't want to go through custom's hoops. Each piece of art you move from Russia must go through expertise of Ministry of Culture and they decide if the piece of art can cross the border. So, I think, it has nothing to do with sanctions or financial services. Being shut out of SWIFT or Visa/Mastercard networks doesn’t mean no money will go in or out of Russia. It means that it’s gonna become incredibly cumbersome and slow. Businesses will have to wait a long time to get paid for exports, which might them to bankruptcy if they’re tight on cash flow. Likewise no one will want to sell to Russian companies if takes ages to get payment from them. You cant wire without SWIFT From Wikipedia: >Euroclear settles domestic and international securities transactions, covering bonds, equities, derivatives, and investment funds. Euroclear provides securities services to financial institutions located in more than 90 countries. >In addition to its role as an international central securities depository (ICSD), Euroclear also acts as the central securities depository (CSD) for Belgian, Dutch, Finnish, French, Irish, Swedish, and UK securities. Euroclear also owns EMXCo, the UK's leading provider of investment-fund order routing. Euroclear is the largest ICSD in the world. lol no judgement boss, I Reddit at work too. But…. No time to google at work. Plenty of time to Reddit. I’m nowhere close to being an expert, but my understanding is Euroclear is one of the largest banks in Europe and specialize in securities transactions and international bonds. They are headquartered in Belgium. [deleted] There is small difference: It doesn't include Russia itself. Visa/MC cards by Russian banks will work inside Russia. New new ones could be issued. They won't work outside of Russia. Also, Non-Russian cards will not work in Russia. What they think about MIR network (it's NSPK network really, and NSPK also plays role of VISA/MC for MIR cards) doesn't matter. They were ordered to use NSPK's network by law somethere in 2015 (after issue with Crimea). 🇷🇺🇷🇺🇷🇺🇷🇺🇷🇺🇷🇺 I certainly dont. Russia is miles better than nk Sounds like you’ve been to Venezuela. Its a breathtaking beautiful country with the worlds largest oil reserves. As a socialist nation—all healthcare and education is free-of-charge to all people. Funny story—haha—we could stop buying ALL Russian oil (which is being unloaded in New Jersey right now) and buy theirs instead. Except we can’t. They have free healthcare so we are giving them the silent treatment until they bow down to wall-street. Learn about the world before you talk shit. I'm just sad for her. A lot more patience. It could live again 🤞 good luck op Enjoy the downfall? I don’t care—I don’t live there—it doesn’t affect me. Why the fuuuuuuuck would I care one way or the other? Employ critical-thinking. Do yourself a favour champ. Its out now that 40% of the worlds countries support russia, and the ladt time we did this to a country (germany) because of a war they cam back harder then last time. So once again i repeat. We may have created a bigger problem then intended. Go back to Ukraine and chill with your Nazi buddies [deleted] Oh ok sorry I misunderstood. Also, nice user name :) You can’t separate the two, the world is isolating Russia because *and only because* they’re invading a sovereign country and butchering Ukrainians would you like some sunflower seeds It wasn’t some arbitrary decision ya ding dong. Access to visa / MasterCard isn’t a human right. It’s a privilege. They’re private companies. They can do whatever they want. Is that suddenly a problem for you? Because I’m not stupid. Those beta males blocked some roads for how long? Did Mastercard or VISA place sanctions on them? No? Then what the fuck are we talking about? Hypotheticals? It’s not a game of “omg cancel culture”. Oh my god. The two events are radically different in terms of importance. But if you wanna get into it, fine. What the truckers did was illegal. Straight up, an illegal occupation. They killed businesses, they disrupted the social order. So, the government stepped in and closed down the bank accounts that were helping to bank roll that social disorder. Clean up the mess and move on. Now, the world has moved on from those trucker pissants and shown how ridiculous the claims of lost freedom is, in light of the Ukraine situation. That’s exactly who I meant! That makes a lot of sense always wondered why he did it that way. [deleted] Yeah maybe but also maybe not. A bullet in the head of a ruthless dictator would honestly be a huge improvement from measily sanctions that ultimately do nothing except affect the commons This is not true. Swift facilitates transfers with a near instant messaging protocol but you can totally wire without it. It’s just slow and not automated. If the bank knows how to get money to the bank across the border, it will happen. Mainly using broker banks. That’s my understanding at least. But guaranteed possible without swift, just time consuming and not practical. I.e. banks aren’t gonna do this for your average joe. Can you venmo without swift? I only have limited time to waste at work, like 8 hours or so. It’s a clearing house meaning it settles transactions on financial markets. When buyer A buys a security from seller B, Euroclear is the depository of both the purchase price and the security. It hands the cash to B and the security to A… Roughly speaking Meaning the ruble is shut out from the biggest financial markets on the continent, which in turn will probably further devaluate that currency since it’s no longer accepted for a large number of financials transactions. Would be huge if true. But as I read the article: > The government sanctions require Visa to suspend access to its network for entities listed Sounds like they’re just enforcing existing ones. Hope it will amount to the whole world soon. My family fleed from the shit state called Venezuela to Spain, i know more than enough. Seen enough videos from other familie members still there about people being skinned alive. Get fucked by a cactus you absolute brainless commie. All bark and no bite, go back to your hole you earth scum I love how salty it makes you Thanks yes reddit loves it Yeah I get that, I just think sanctions should be left to governments and it sets a bad precedent. Thats all. I dont think corporations should have that kind of power. Similar to the crybabies in canada, whatever your opinion is its fucked up they can just freeze someone’s money like that. How many fucking sovereign countries have we invaded??? You don’t get to have it both ways Throughout recent history, sunflowers have been used for medicinal purposes. The Cherokee created a sunflower leaf infusion that they used to treat kidneys. Whilst in Mexico, sunflowers were used to treat chest pain. I’ll try em. Sure No shit obviously. Im saying they should not have that type of power, but if you support corporate power thats cool thats your opinion. No actually they cannot do whatever they want. Thats why we have antitrust laws. Their money being seized wasn't a hypothetical, it happened. In fact it happened publicly and not very long ago. >Because I’m not stupid. Okay, then try to not to be uninformed if you're gonna talk about a topic with any amount of certainty, eh? Price parity for EVs is like 4-6 years away. The world won't be buying so much oil, long term. It is. There is Chinese Union Pay which doesn't have a lot of usage in Russia but some banks emit them and there is some level of merchant's acceptance. This is will be used more. China didn't say anything about blocking Russian banks. There is Russian MIR (accepted by some countries too). There is crypto after all. you might be able to, but Venmo does not work outside of the US God thats all? So for simple terms they the middle man in an deal? That makes a lot of sense. I learned something new today. Thanks!! i hope not. the only people suffering from these sanctions are the citizens who most are against the war. I hope your immigrant ass is treated better than you want to treat romani people. Fuck racists. Why didnt you fix your own country? Why did you run away? “All bark and no bite” What would the bite be exactly? I’m telling you something you don’t know and you react bitterly. The Truth about Nazis is exactly that—if you don’t care then so be it. [deleted] Private corporations have the independence to do business with anyone they want and refuse to do business with anyone they want. Funny how you have a problem with that concept. Private companies are not a public service. They're responding to sanctions... Dude, you’re clown shoes. “I’m not talking about the invasion”. You just want to take out a huge part of it and focus on the the repercussions. “What if FIFA can just block any old country from participating” “What if NATO can impose sanctions on just any country they don’t like” Just stop. Whether you’re “not talking” about the invasion, and only focusing on the aftermath, it’s STILL happening and that’s WHY punishments are coming. I don’t think you gotta worry about doughboys in their trucks playing “freedom fighter”. Visa and MasterCard are not engaging in anticompetitive practices here. A company can deny service to specific people, companies, or countries if it wants to, as long as they’re not breaking any laws that deal with discrimination or any other illegal activities. Ok, but they can (and should) do this. Lol are you talking about GoFundMe? Where to start? I won’t go long. Withholding =/= seizure. GFM, who’s not a bank, determined these funds were against their TOS and returned the money to people donating. They decided to go a different route with their donations and Ontario filed to have those blocked, based on their unlawful occupation of public roads. Again, NOT seized. You *do* know what “seizure” means, right? [deleted] Uh, in a day, yeah. The middle man in most deals Oligarchs have credit cards too. Lol Ask a American drone pilot about innocent people… Ask Ukraine why half their military is comprised of Neo-Nazis… Oh really so why is there a supreme court case because a web designer didnt want to make a site for a gay couple? Come on dude. There is a fine line. Both sides can be debated. My opinion is matters of international politics/war should be left to governments. Nato can place sanctions anywhere thats my whole fucking point is thats their job not corporations. We dont need philosopher kings ruling from their offices in new york. Dont yell at me because of your lack of perspective. Lol. It went way beyond gofundme. You are super uninformed here. Just stop and do some research. Us is quite independent from oil from other countries. So not worried so much. But if they can accelerate move to EV, then US can export oil to Europe. EU will most likely move aggressively to become energy independent from Russia. Then they are really f\*cked cause unlike China, they never really made the smallest attempt to diversify their economy. Yes, lol indeed [deleted] Are you seriously that stupid? The US has anti discrimination laws that prevent individuals or companies discriminating against people on the grounds of sex, religion, age, race, etc. an individual or company within the US is undertaking an illegal action when refusing an individual of company based on protected grounds. This isn’t about US politics. What the fuck are you talking about? Because chosing not to do business with someone about something they're born with and affects noone is not the same as doing business with a civilian murdering madman bent on war. Discrimination on sexual orientation is obviously not ok. But nice job trying to equate the two, you bigot. Corporations can literally do whatever they want, as long as it’s legal. They’re not bound by rules the ways that governments are. You should change your username to “SelectivelyIlliterate”. Well you know what they say, The ability to speak doesn’t make you intelligent Not if I want Zelensky’s quarter-zip Patagonia top Sure gottem. Guess the argument is over Well…I have no words for that 🤦‍♀️ [deleted] Your complaint, at its core, is: Russia is the victim of cancel culture. Who’s next? It’s not worth any more of my time. We do like wine coolers and project runway. He’s really good at doing my makeup and—I’m not *allowed* to do his anymore… Cancel culture was the wrong term I admit What if a bank denied service to a BLM leader? That cool? [deleted] You want to play hypotheticals but it’s just not based in reality. When I said “this wasn’t an arbitrary decision”, I meant that these are absolutely extreme times where a country is being ruthless and WIDELY accepted as being in the wrong. It’s a war, whether Russian propaganda admits it or not, that they chose to be in. In order deescalate, ALL avenues of banks, alliances, sporting events, Hollywood etc etc are coming out in defense of Ukraine. It’s also to futureproof against other nations feeling brave enough to try it. That’s a big hope, and probably wrong, but nevertheless. You’re talking about sanctioning private citizens. THAT would be an arbitrary decision and if we got to that point, we’d A. Be aware long in advance of that potential and B. In another whole world of shit. I disagree with the trucker convoys blocking public streets. Citizens pay those taxes, children use those roads to reach school, supply chains suffer, ambulances need routes. If you or I parked in the middle of road ways… we’d answer for that but they aren’t gonna block my credit cards. But again, this whole conversation isn’t, and shouldn’t be, about trucker convoys. I’m not out there. I’m in Delaware. It’s quite here :) [deleted] Blow me 😜" American Factories Are Making Stuff Again as CEOs Take Production Out of China,3272,https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-07-05/us-factory-boom-heats-up-as-ceos-yank-production-out-of-china?srnd=premium,"That’s wonderful. Hopefully it’s a wake up call to a need for a diversified manufacturing portfolio. This will accelerate with automation and robots, china is only part of the story. Our oligarchs saw globalization as a means to make more money. China saw it as a means to dominate the world. And now we are learning China's true intentions. Day by day we see its being more hostile to our country, while our worthless, corrupt politicians babble some empty warnings with no concrete action. China is a massive danger. At least in my industry, specialty chemicals, China is no longer a reliable source of chemicals like they were 3 years ago. Almost everything we bought from China is now coming from places like India. A small portion of it is returning to the US. We buy cheap chemicals to make expensive chemicals that we then resell globally. Tariffs on Chinese chemicals have been a nightmare. We are losing margin and market share. This is good news. Good. More of this. This is the most important thing to save America from the CCP. Great news. Get Chinese money out of the America economy because American money never leaves china. The more cheep labor we use,the more we are funding CCP influence with zero long term return. [deleted] We should have never been allowed to by pass US workers rights in favour of Chinese child labour. Communities destroyed in the USA and lives destroyed in China I can only hope that this means the end of globalism and cheap Chinese shit. This was a rotten deal for the US and propped up a Communist regime in China. Shame on Apple for doubling down and keeping their production there. If you’re a company that is not diversifying their manufacturing process from abroad to the US, then you absolutely deserve what is coming to you in the coming months. I would rather pay a higher price tag for my goods than to get cheaper goods made overseas. Most of the crap now is complete garbage from Amazon. Time to bring manufacturing back to the States. It's almost like ""reduce labor costs by any means necessary"" wasn't necessarily the greatest innovation, particularly when you need to involve a large, authoritarian government as your business partner. Lean. JIT delivery. Minimum resources. Rightsizing, offshoring, outsourcing. These aren't always the best or the only way to get EPS up (and therefore your stock options). Sometimes, having control over your inputs and having your vendors and suppliers nearby are an advantage, not ""just a cost center."" I will be willing also pay more for made in the USA to keep manufacturing folks at the bottom employed. My two years of working on assembly lines solving production problems as a technical professional enable me to appreciate sweat work and try to come up with innovative methods to simplify their work. When I look for a July 4th flag I make sure I buy one made in USA which is what I did. This is the best way to help poor people. Give them jobs and not food stamps. It’s about time! About time! America needs redundancy in its manufacturing and once it does, we can negotiate from a place of strength with China finally this is fantastic news! This comment has been deleted due to failed Reddit leadership. FT had a similar article the other day except it pointed out that stuff isn’t being moved to America, Mexico, or Canada (much to the chagrin of AMLO). It’s all going to other countries in Asia and India. The reality is that the tariffs on China started the inflation’s cycle we are seeing today and the more stuff we make in America, the more inflation we will have. That’s why a lot of stuff will be made in places with cheaper labor and costs. I have to say I was surprised to see Mexico wasn’t a beneficiary of all the supply chain issues. Apparently it’s due to AMLO being pretty difficult to work with and he does nothing to make it easier for businesses to grow there. I feel like this is just a natural step in the human race seeing how they feel about globalism, which is essentially in its infancy. It's cheap to go all the way with it, but then supply chain issues hurt like hell. I think you'll see more done ""at home"" from now on, I just can't imagine to what extent yet. Hope they plan on paying American wages then! Good news!!! But we have to have patience. It’ll take 20-25 year to reverse China America has always made stuff So we agree then. It’s capitalism that took away American jobs all along. Biden boom continues About GD time! Inflation is up, may as well bring back US production as we're settling in to higher prices on everything going forward Kid: “Why is inflation so high?” “Well kid, first, to jumpstart an economy most countries choose a proven method of injecting cash into the system. Worked in 2012 /// except, kid, in 2012 we didn’t have a global pandemic that kept us from getting all of our cheap goods from china. Now we can’t get our cheap goods, demand piled up and now they can raise prices to equal. They can also price gauge together, globally, because more companies have consolidated. This way, they can force headcount inflation lower by raising prices and shorting headcount by laying people off for a year and widely increasing profit. It has a lot to do with those cheap goods fro China, kid” Kid: 😶🥺😭 USA! Amazing! About damn time. Good I have been following this since China locked down. More and more companies realize that China will steal IP, want partial ownership of the company, and lockdown when they feel like it. This, along with the fact that China no longer has the cheapest labor, gives countries like Vietnam, Thailand, Mexico, and India a manufacturing advantage. I’ll believe it when Walmart is not filled with Made In China goods. Can someone explain the implications for the US stock market long term? The US will be manufacturing here (good for the economy) but prices worldwide will go up because it costs more to manufacture here (good for US manufacturing companies, bad for other companies). Music to my ears This is good news. More jobs will hopefully mean higher salary, and more people being able to pay their bills and hopefully have a better life. We're the cheap labor Chinese became more expensive than Americans. People never take this argument full circle when it comes to American manufacturing. “I am willing to pay a little more to employ Americans at a good wage” Ok but your money is finite. You pay more for these products but are going to pay less for others which will cost jobs. damn its like another president said that and everybody said he was fucken crazy [deleted] The future is now, old man, Millennial finally taking control of destiny. As an aside (and I’m not working to be a social justice warrior here but focusing on practical applications), I’m inclined to believe overturning Roe had some desire to increase domestic labor population in the coming years. Again, not meaning to be cynical but judging based on economic drivers in US history for policy shifts which also had strong moral underpinnings (child labor law is a big one), I believe this to be a possibility here. That’s great. Wish we would allow more immigration to fill job demand. Isn’t this what Trump was talking about starting again lol This is not going to create jobs. Outsourcing to China and the rest was cheaper than building automated plants, now automated plants are cheaper and shipping internationally is more expensive and logistically problematic than in the past. They just want to pay less for transportation. They always intended to avoid paying for labor. They are not going to contribute to the US economy, they are just going to take your money for their goods and dodge paying federal and local taxes by keeping the money offshore. Any country that actually wants economic stability needs manufacturing on a level that handles all domestic needs. International trade should only consist of surplus goods. It's common sense yet no one does it and it's infuriating. Thank....it only took democrats 26 yrs to figure out what everyone else knew MAGA LESSGOO Shallow observation: that’s a beautifully designed industrial building. Sure, just like they took it out of North Korea. Seems pretty inflationary, right? Explain part of the inflation I'll believe it when I see the job numbers over a decade from now. The looting class will not tolerate taking less Manufacturing has been coming back to the US for a few years now, the key point is that robotics manufacturing is driving the trend, these new factories employ 1/10th of the factory workers of the old manufacturing in China or the US pre-China. TESLA next in line? All good until the tariffs are lifted and it becomes cheaper to produce it in China again. Not sure if it was the tariffs or the fact that China’s copycats are getting better at it and creating their own manufacturing brands with equivalent quality and lower costs that will eventually put out of business American companies. this is just wow but how did biden convince them? Oh, I see. We need more low wage workers… so unplanned children will fit that bill delightfully. Aye, thank god, but unlike gas prices, no mention that this is also reflective of a further tightening at a governmental level to signify our displeasure re:China on many topics, the support to Russia being that which broke the camels back. Why are CEOs being lauded? They are lemmings, they do what the other companies are doing and follow suit. It’s not like the CEOs got together and began planning a move. Add to as well as Tibet/Uyghur human rights, abuse of workers, supply chain, comparative skilled worker compensation vs total cost of labor, South China Seambullshit, Taiwan, etc, etc Nice Wow right before the world ends…cool u/Chrisprice you’ll have time to read up after a 14 hr drive lol [deleted] Absolutely, it's about damn time we started producing more in America. Yup, it's confirmation the US labor is so fucking low paying it's cheaper to bring it back to the US. Even China has more worker rights than a country forcing birth of $20k/year kids but 1/3 of the US makes $15/hr or less. Move over China, we got prison slave labor on the rise! Until you see the prices lol Not to mention that American workers, possibly not many, can finally have manufacturing jobs again. I lived in a city where you either worked for the government, became a stripper, or worked in a restauraunt if you wanted a job. There was a tire manufacturing plant that hired family members of workers and a chemical plant that did the same. In a city if 300,000, those two plants employed less than 1% of the city workers. Welcome to a crappy Wal-mart job, welcome to Apple Bee's, welcome to Texas Road House. The US is the second largest manufacturer in the world by dollar value of exports. We make more stuff than we ever did in the past, just higher up the value chain and more of the workforce moved to services. Yeah, we have firsthand observed the risk of outsourced jusr-in-time supply chains Robots need a lot of maintenance and humans behind the scenes. It shifts labor up, not getting rid of it entirely Automation requires a lot of human work but it increases productivity significantly Let’s just never forget a little well-known movie called “The Terminator.” You mean...adding conveyor belts and line-workers is automation? Fancy words you're using but I'm just helping translate for you to layman speak. correct, they have said well we can not make money if we have literally no product to sell, china a useful idiot in this trade game is no longer useful if they are no longer reliable. We have tolerated there theft for years of the IP so long as the goodies keept flowing smooth. >2022- Our stock is cratering. Our sales are kind of holding on because we are charging more for what we have left. But we've seriously run out of things to sell. Maybe this is an issue. https://archive.ph/J4PzW Seems like this is reversing now due to a supply chain bullwhip effect. Now do 2023… 🫣 Not in China, I started traveling there in 2000 and I have seen how much the normal person has increased their quality of life. This is a pipe dream. The age of US manufacturing is over. Specialty products made in the US might exist, but your average Walmart product? Still coming from China because Americans love cheap goods. Can’t have a domestic market without domestic consumers. i dont think you know what a communist regime is For everyone who's not American this is a dream come true. We can still buy from China at ridiculous low prices and sell products manufactured at home to the US at ridiculous hi prices. I really hope this stays for a couple of decades at least. >This was a rotten deal for the US Was it? US gets millions of tangible goods people need while China gets useless paper dollars. What would you rather have? If your brilliant management innovation is to simply cut costs wherever possible with little thought for the future, you're really not that brilliant. It might not be happening for the US companies moving production to Mexico, but Mexican companies are making a Killing because of all this mess selling to the US. this sub lol. US manufacturing output never actually stopped and has continued to grow even through globalization. But to read these comments, it’s some big change that’s occurring. 🙄 Yeah but when's the last time you saw made in USA stamped on a product No. No no. It’s globalism! Totally different from capitalism! From the article >For some companies, the first nudge they got to revamp their supply-chain lines came two years before Covid, when then-President Donald Trump began slapping tariffs on Chinese products again and again. One of the only things he did right. He caught a lot of flack for being isolationist and racist for being anti-China, but it's the right thing to diversify and protect the country. There were tons of posts on here saying it was stupid to bring back manufacturing here. That is if there are no cheap imports Inb4 automation In reality - stuff will get increasingly automated. Blue collar jobs are dead. Get some next gen skills people. Lol no. Prisoners are the cheap labor Ehh this is an oversimplification, but there are definitely impoverished parts of the US ripe for “cheap labor” targeted manufacturing. Appalachia is a perfect example and it’s not as though that area just suddenly became impoverished. Not if they are made at scale. Plus it's a different ball game with modern automation, a lot of people here discount how much our cylons can do > going to pay less for others which will cost jobs. how do you mean pay less? and he was. and so is the idea that any serious manufacturing is coming back. it's been tried, it always fails. it will fail now. Manufacturing still exists overseas, it's just going to cost Americans more because we're failing to specialize because we have no sizable highly educated class needed to create and sustain industries. If he likes the tech and stays nimble he'll be fine. Tell him if he is willing to work with his hands, he can make 5x his salary as a plumber or electrician and possibly even have an easier job. Yeah Trump did a lot of talking. Takes an adult to actually get things done though. I think china does it. Lay off the FauxNews. I've really turned around on tariffs over the past decade. I used to be a big believer in free trade, but now I think free trade should only be between countries of similar levels of economic development. Sure, free trade provides a net benefit. But the distribution of that benefit is worth considering. Free trade between similarly developed countries enables improved specialization which is a win for everyone. But free trade with undeveloped nations is different, as the main competitive advantage of poor countries is just cheap labor. That helps the people at the top enormously, but hurts the people at the bottom almost as much. I'd rather pay a bit more for products to keep folks at the bottom employed. A country where the people at the bottom are competing for wages with folks living in the third world isn't the kind of country I want to live in. It seems that the Biden administration wants to keep the tariffs and the republicans want to roll them back? https://www.politico.com/news/2022/04/22/competes-act-china-tariffs-republicans-00026990 Nah, manufacturing was moving south out of china before Covid due to geopolitical issues and prices, and has continued to shift into se Asia, and America to an extent. The issue is supply chain though. And, I don’t really see companies being able to move production beyond the Chinese sphere of influence because it’d be so hard to make stuff without the ingredients they produce. This is why places like vietnam have seen solid gdp growth over the past ten years, and it’s also why china is so into being a regional super power that controls trade. So, the tariffs are only really a small factor in what already was a shifting market. If you read the article it has been consistently geowing for the past 10 years. There was a pickup with the tarrifs but it is written about extensively that chinese manufacturing costs have been skyrocketing for the past 10 years. The cost of transportation (freight, fuel, handling costs) and delays have also skyrocketed. Automation continues to increase making onshoring relatively efficient in the US. With inflation rapidly increasing companies dont want long delays in deliveries. Furniture is the worst but it is potentially everything. It is better to pay a premium to guarentee delivery times. China is also not a safe and secure place to invest. With solar cost falling and energy prices skyrocketing, we will see more companies returning to the US. Seems like a no brainer. It’s pretty well established that the Trump tariffs were a net negative for US manufacturing. By trying to protect steel in particular the tariffs drove a number of manufacturers of goods made of steel out of business or out of the US. Lots of companies that made nails in particular were quick to go out of business. Wish we would have ganged up with other developed countries to conjure up a plan to squeeze China versus declaring economic war without a thought out strategy Honestly, I don't even know how much of it is that, a portion of it is probably increasing automation lowering costs of local factories, and companies getting nervous about chinese policy overall. Those tariffs simply got passed onto the consumer as a defacto sales tax/""inflation"". Meanwhile, most manufacturing hasn't been reshored (where labor and construction costs have skyrocketed further since the housing bubble and Great Resignation)...but simply moved to other Asian countries. Bottom line is that Americans aren't going to work grueling factory jobs for peanuts. China was only doing the jobs Americans didn't want anyways...the equivalent of hi-tech cotton-picking. So now, we are experiencing supply chain shortages and much higher consumer prices as American workers simply will not fill China's forced vacuum. And this is only the beginning... It’s good to keep China out of becoming the superpower it is already headed towards (except maybe the political backlash portion), but it also bad for consumers because prices for good will inevitably rise. And thus we have a recession with high prices. I think over time we will see manufacturing return to the US in large scale. Not because of US government policy and not because of people trying to do good. But rather because as you increase the level of automation in the manufacturing process, you reduce the gains attained by lower overseas labour costs. Keep in mind that outsourcing to China also has its costs (eg the inefficiency of having the design engineers and the actual manufacturing in different places, freight and shipping, the high tax, legal and regulatory costs of doing business in China)—at a certain point these costs are too high to justify manufacturing in China. The real issue now is that the US just doesn’t have the expertise right now to do certain kinds of high tech manufacturing effectively [deleted] Presumably, American factories will rely heavily on automation so the cost of manual labor is fairly low. With that in mind, the key difference will be shipping costs which, as you can guess, will be a lot lower when the goods are being created locally and shipped a short difference. It'll push up costs if the the components for the final product are being shipped longer distances than what China is doing. That’s the problem. These kinds of jobs should be subsidized to some degree to keep them domestic. That’s the problem with our economy. We prioritize the monetary cost, human cost be damned. Sad but true I see spending as voting therefore higher prices are acceptable to me if it reflects my values. I already purchase as local as I can and rather go without it when possible if a good option isn’t available. In many countries products are being made using labour from concentration camps or even slaves. Dude america has a fuck ton of manufacturing jobs lmao. I live in Dayton they have one of the largest manufacturing economies for the USA. Idk where you’re getting your info Manufacturing jobs were gutted by technology, not trade. And the resurgence of local manufacturing is likely driven by even more automation being available. I feel domestic manufacturing and energy jobs should be subsidized like farming and food is. It depends. We fight for minimum wage increases and push for unionization, but that also means increased price of production. Which means companies will move to somewhere else where they aren’t hit by the fees (like Canada) or consumers will be paying higher prices for products. Better paid job and less suffering But made in the good old US of A Terminators. Yes that IS automation So, something that's over 100 years old and treated like new. Got it. I wonder about the line-worker culture being a thing that's propped up by cheap labor in China. There's got to be ways to automate nearly all of it. Like, you look at those factories and it's a hundred people sitting, screwing the same screws into a phone case or something and there's no way you couldn't do this with robots if you really wanted to. It's ""jabs"" but I'd prefer that shit being automated and paying people a UBI to, I don't know, potentially write the next Harry Potter book or whatever. Seems like a more productive use of people's time. [deleted] I just watched a video on this. This could make things much more interesting going forward I assumed the average Walmart product would be upgraded to an Indonesian, Burmese, Malaysian, Bangladeshi, or Vietnamese product Supply shocks from the last 2 years and constant Covid lockdowns in China have marked the death of cheap goods being made in China Some Americans love cheap stuff. Some would like quality and pay more. Even stuff that’s expensive is made there now, reducing quality while keeping the high price. Bring the expensive low quality stuff back to make high quality again. I agree with some of this. We need to be strategic about what is brought back. Leaving it up to companies to decide works against our national security. China can keep making commodities, but the tech needs to come back. > Americans love cheap goods. i'm not sure it's 'love' as much as it's 'this is the price i can only afford it at' Funny how communism in theory doesn’t align with communism in practice, just like the critics of communism stated all along. That’s another failure of communism itself. Communism doesn’t work. It would never work. Financial Times reports that when looking at US imports from Mexico “It rose by just 11.8 per cent over three years to $384.6bn in 2021, according to the US Census Bureau — after allowing for inflation the total increase was just under 4 per cent. “Most of the gains have gone to Asean, India and Korea,” said UBS in a recent report examining nearshoring in Mexico. “At least for now, the US import penetration data does not support the view that Mexico has been a net beneficiary of nearshoring.” I have to admit that’s not what I had expected to find. Mexico has the largest potential for growth. FT seems to link it with their president, AMLO. “Business leaders, diplomats and investors say he has been hostile to some foreign companies and complain that his capricious decision-making and authoritarian tendencies are scaring off investment.” “Mexico’s poor performance is “a direct consequence of . . . Amlo-nomics, which is extremely tight macroeconomic policy coupled with very bad microeconomics,” says Citi’s Revilla, using the acronym that has become the president’s nickname. “The result is not surprising: it’s very low growth.” Andrés Rozental, a former deputy foreign minister who now works as a consultant, agrees. “We had everything to gain from the global geopolitical situation,” he says. “But it’s all been squandered because of López Obrador’s anti-private sector policies.” >this sub lol. US manufacturing output never actually stopped and has continued to grow even through globalization. But to read these comments, it’s some big change that’s occurring. 🙄 This is just factually incorrect. The total number of manufacturing jobs and their percentage of non-farm jobs has dropped since the 1950, especially the percentage which is 1/3 of what it was in the 50's https://www.economist.com/sites/default/files/images/print-edition/20181020_USC594.png Is there still a large manufacturing sector in the US? Sure. But to claim some big change didn't occur as globalization grew through the late 1900s is wrong. All the time. Broken clock is correct once a day when implementing democratic policies by mistake. Agree with you there. K Well then it needs to show up in pricing then no problem but it’s not Your money is finite, if you spend extra for American made goods that money is coming out from somewhere else in your budget. This is largely the criticism with tariffs. In an efficient market place my money goes to companies most deserving. When tariffs are introduced to protect underperforming companies and causing me to buy products at higher price then that money is siphoned away from other companies that are performing well. TLDR, tariffs protect inefficient companies and hurt good companies in seemingly unrelated ways but it’s all tied together. [deleted] It takes a lot of willing people in high places to make things happen, not 'an adult'. Lol....always the same reply.....it's like your programed to say that. Try life experience [deleted] Cheap labor and no regulation. I've also heard the argument that the cheap labor in China is also being elevated out of poverty which is nothing to scoff at. These are people who were farmers and now work in factories and have a marked increase in income and quality of life. My boilerplate answer is that is nice and all but these individuals don't vote in American elections and the hollowing out of our manufacturing has done tremendous damage, not to mention we're relying on labor from a government that is diametrically opposed to ours. It's a recipe for disaster and I wish neoliberals would stop pushing it. Will never win OH or PA again with the hollowing out of our manufacturing. Same, I used to be super free market and then I graduated and got a big boy job and realized that free market at this point is just bending over backwards for big business. Don't forget the environmental externality. Is it really good for our species and the planet as a whole, to have a supply chain system sprawled across the globe for a single product? Who factors in the carbon footprint generated from tankers crossing the oceans, etc? Cheaper for the corporations, but more expensive for the civilization as a whole. Don't forget all the pollution we exported. Some of these countries have abysmal environmental regulation. Another buck for the CEOs of the world. Free trade as a rational theory in economics class... logical and good. In practice, good with a whole can of rotten worms. I think it should only be among countries that share our values. Maybe our better nature would be more appropriate. Hard to tell what our values really are anymore. It should have been Mexico and Central America instead of China. Well said. You’ve made a solid point here. Equal or close to equal distribution of the benefit should be a priority. [The worlds most polluted river](https://youtu.be/GEHOlmcJAEk) Just wanted to add that the environment gets trashed in developing countries too. Great way to put it. But the problem is you spend more money there and then less elsewhere leading to job losses in those sectors. Countries should focus on what they are good at (comparative advantage). The only real argument for tariffs imo is political risk. Relying on China can really tie our hands diplomatically as we can’t just absorb the demand for production quick enough. I’m convinced canadas inflation is correlated to the lack of temporary foreign worker approvals > But free trade with undeveloped nations is different, as the main competitive advantage of poor countries is just cheap labor. That helps the people at the top enormously, but hurts the people at the bottom almost as much But it sure helps the people in the very bottom in developmental countries who get the jobs though. High horse argument It has helped 3rd world countries develop though If two countries have similar levels of economic development then it would make more sense for each country to just make things at home since labor costs would be the same. You don’t have to pay more for keeping manufacturing local. The problem is greed of the people at the top. We need to put a cap on profit This is the most thoughtful and poignant comment I have read on Reddit in years. Do you believe a handful of beauracrats can efficiently allocate a country's imports/exports better than the hundreds of millions employees and entrepreneurs involved in running those industries? Are you familiar with [The Economic calculation problem](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem)? How will these beauracrats measure what and how much of which products should be subject to tariffs and taxes? How will they measure not only their own choices, but the ripple effects they create? >I'd rather pay a bit more for products to keep folks at the bottom employed. Our goal as humans is to get as much input for as little output as possible. Labor is an input cost, why would we want to artificially subsidize a higher cost than we would otherwise have to? How will the 3rd world workers eat? The fuck do Tariffs have to do with that? Even if you are just talking about countries with similar levels of economic development, having your nation's access to critical resources like steel or fertilizer be dependent on imports is very dangerous. Free trade is fine I suppose for industries that aren't at risk of being crippled by outside competition, but in the long term does that actually describe *any* industry? I'm not so sure. I'd rather have the *option* to pay a bit more for products. With tariffs, you remove that option and now everything's high priced, artificially. Tariffs are best kept at a very, very small minimum, as close to zero as possible. This way you remove the barriers of high prices and let things cost what they cost naturally. That's always the best option. I'd like to contribute to what you said with a theory formulated by a south american economist: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sx2f4MpQuis](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sx2f4MpQuis) Is the guy on the right’s name really Crapo? ‘ Africa is next. That'll be fun... Lol, I'm sorry, I thought having healthcare and all my livelihood tied to an employer who has pocketed all the money that should be in my wages was enough of a suicide net. Oh wait, we have suicide nets on bridges, and why do we need suicide nets with suicide being the 10th leading cause of death and we have all these guns? I'm sorry, suicide isn't even near the top 10 causes of death in China. US also has more deaths in their top 10 than a country with over a billion people in it, and I'm not even talking per capita. Why watch a fall as you die when you can end it immediately when guns outnumber people? You're more likely to die here sooner anyways. The US is 1 of 3 countries with no parental leave and the only country in the world with no mandatory vacation time. China has 128 days of mandatory maternity leave by law. Yea, being raised into corporate slavery is not much better of a life. But isn't that the point you're making? Cite how people are suffering, but what about 3rd world living? Yea, we don't have safety nets, you can just go to jail and be used for the same slavery your race has historically experienced or get shot 90 times because of your skin color. What a great strong flex. Wealthiest country in the world almost exclusively always compared to the poorest for a semblance of whatever dignity is left in it. What about Venezuela? I'm sure that's the next question, a country trashed by the US as a citation. You may find some of Toyotas issues to be interesting after opening a factory in Alabama. Almost shut it down because quality was bad. I think they may be a good model for ‘American’ manufacturing No, a huge part of this American offshoring is due to government subsidies, especially for semiconductors. Pretty much every country is doing the same. There will be economic losses, but they are paid for by the government, or taxpayer if you're more cynical. Right? I’m about an hour from Dayton and run social media for several manufacturing companies. They’re struggling to fill basic positions for $25/hr starting with raises every 3 months. If you think there hasn’t been a drastic drop off in Manufacturing jobs that pay well, you’re ignoring the facts. Yes, there are still manufacturing jobs in America, but compared to what we were at before? It’s not enough to have a sustainable economy. Tech was a contributor, not the sole reason. Lmao NO. It was gutted by trade. In the 2000s and 2010s I witnessed entire automated production lines be dismantled because it was cheaper to have the work be done by hand in china than pay even the few workers needed to man the high tech line in the US. What? It was gutted because companies moved production overseas to save labor costs for all the cheap junk people want. There is still a decent amount of US production but for niche functions, things that are required to be turnaround immediately, and things that can't be outsourced. With all of our modern automation, there are still hundreds of thousands of jobs in making stuff that isn't done in the US but could be. Subsidize less in my opinion. It’s been a wreck on our economy for decades as politicians pick winners and losers. Remove oil subsidies and gas subsidies and farm subsidies. I've seen the documentaries showing how farmers can farm great food every year and profit without subsidizing. If the government mandated the chemical free farming, that chemical industry would shrink, but the farming could need less help. More tax money to go into things that need it, like green energy and manufacturing jobs! Not all food is subsidized. Fresh fruits and vegetables are a great example 2 dollars for a apple pisses me the fuck off. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem US of AI Well, it is automation. Having robots have definitely been investigate by departments at huge companies called mfg excellence, operational excellence, or industrial engineering. I've seen waaay too many comments complaining why companies don't automate etc but in the end, it's all about how much it cost to replace workers and most of the time, it's hard and expensive. Sneakers? Yeah, no chance in hell it's going to be done by robots as there are too many sizes and too many models...yes I have experience a bit on manufacturing common products.i actually have experience in one of the fields I listed above which is basically the same as Toyota production system, etc and I do focus a lot on cost and benefit analysis...yes I've done lots of time studies analysis on labor. Robots have been considered for decades and I'm not quite young but not quite old. The cost exceeds benefit. Moreover, robots rely on hydraulics and hands most of the time are faster than robots but at a cost of inconsistency of course but it's actually not high enough to cry. >The excess inventory piling up at large retailers such as Target Corp. and Walmart Inc. is proving a boon for liquidators and other companies that help dispose of the oversupply. First sentence from the article. Myanmar, not really. Every other country you mentioned, yes. You should also toss Cambodia (textiles, OEM), and Laos (not sure what they make) in there too because they’re way closer to Chinese supply chains. Uh manufacturing has been fragmented into places with tariff advantage since trumps trade war. What isnt said are the parent companies of these companies are still chinese or taiwanese who also have factories in china. Just different lipsticks really. The main problem is if you want a full supply chain its still impossible to leave china. Nah. People need to stop looking at China and generalizing. China, historically and economically, is a weird country. It is a country that has almost always been rich, and in recent years has only been poor because of some historical oddities, e.g. their disastrous experiment with Maoist communism. But they've always had the cultural and human capital to be rich. China's economic development is better understood as a very long-term recovery. As a general rule, poor countries are poor because it's expensive to do business there. When a country is highly uncompetitive, the only thing that country can do to compete in international trade is have extremely low wages. Floating exchange rates will ensure that happens. And being uncompetitive is normally due to local cultural and political factors. Foreign companies showing up to set up factories isn't going to significantly change that. A few might succeed in narrow business niches, but the kind of broad manufacturing success like what happened in China is not likely to recur anywhere else. If it were, it would have already happened. Or companies move to other countries like Canada where tariffs aren’t as bad. Our company did this last year. We moved from a smallish city in a small state to Canada because real estate taxes and production was so much cheaper. Sears ran with the ""made in america"" stuff for a while didnt work. Tell me how apple is cheap stuff? It’s from China. I’ve never owned a single American made thing that was both expensive and good. We're talking about output from US manufacturing, not employment. We make more with less people Not enough. We need more. Weird, I havent seen it in like 20 years Yea not sure if it was an actual intelligent thought or if it was a different motive where he fell into the right answer It's like prices are a means of telling us about an items scarcity and that central planning never works. Right so that’s why they are about spend $52 billion to bring chip making back here to the US I’m not the one so easily susceptible to propaganda. 🤷 It also allows other countries to force external environmental costs back on us. The taillight made in China is cheaper to make because the waste plastic and waste chemicals are dumped into the ocean. China takes the increased profit from the cheaper manufacturing, the whole world has poisoned oceans full of plastic. And factories that employed hundreds of thousands of middle class kids, they are now part of a drug distribution network nationwide, often the only way to make any money, leading to violence, gangs, destruction. Yep. That's also true and also part of the reason I no longer support unlimited free trade. this has always been self evident but denied by everyone with their hands in the till. we were sold out in the 70’s and that has come back to haunt us with lower wages, lost unions, no financial safety net. meanwhile the boomers that did it to us get their social security and cuss us for needing these systems. Paul Krugman himself now admits globalization hasn't turned out the way he predicted it would. https://archive.nytimes.com/krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/03/09/a-protectionist-moment/ https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/paul-krugman-raises-the-white-flag-on-trade/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/10/22/economists-globalization-trade-paul-krugman-china/ https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-10-10/inequality-globalization-and-the-missteps-of-1990s-economics The labor in the cheaper countries often times are also abused since our laws are different. We've all heard the stories of factories in China having to put up suicide nets or certain ethnic groups or prisoners being forced to work as slaves. There's no way workers in the US can compete with that unless we want people here treated like that also in a race to the bottom. Happy cake day! You just said the same thing as OP. Potential for further exploitation of the average joe and further deregulation as leverage for creating more jobs. Just business, companies move to other countries to make the most of cheap labour. The ordinary Chinese didnt have it easy and you will see. Hope it doesn't go that way though. Yeah, it's not happening overnight, but China is increasingly pricing itself out of the labor market with its growing middle class. China becoming known over the last several decades as ""Asia's factory"" hints at this a bit, as it is becoming increasingly a place of assembly for finished goods whose components are manufactured more cheaply in South Asia or India. A generation of workers have toiled to put their children through college, and those kids (now adults) expect a standard of living higher than factory work. Michigan has been devastated. We used to have tons of different manufacturing. Candies, furniture, cars etc…Betsy Devos and her brother Erick prince know that, there dad had billion dollar company in wm, when he died the family sold it. That company was torn to shreds. The town not the same but slowly coming back after 25 years…one example. tfw you realise the true free market capitalist invisible hand dream died with the 1929 stock market crash and the state will always administer our economy whether or not that means nationalizing key industrial production or bailing out corrupt hedge funds and banks as they inevitably combust every ~10 years I'm still a big believe in free markets because every example of the absolute worst markets with the biggest problems are the ones with the most government interference. I'm not wildly opposed to all forms of government regulation, there's definitely places where good regulation would improve matters. But most regulators don't seem to be very good at their jobs and seem to promote inefficiency, waste, and corruption. Politics corrupts. > Is it really good for our species and the planet as a whole, to have a supply chain system sprawled across the globe for a single product? Who factors in the carbon footprint generated from tankers crossing the oceans, etc? Probably. The biggest carbon footprint/kg of shipping something across the ocean comes from the truck that took your product to and from the port. Oceanic transportation is ludicrously efficient and emit orders of magnitude less CO2 per km tonne as other modes of transportation. Take aluminum for example. The carbon footprint of shipping raw aluminum ore to Iceland or Quebec where they have dirt cheap carbon-free electricity, and then shipping refined aluminum back, is way lower than producing aluminum in place in most countries. [deleted] I'm pretty sure it is actually caused by the massive increase in the money supply over the past three years. Yep. But there are billions of really poor people and we will impoverish our working class long before we meaningfully improve the lives of everyone else's. Globalization imports global inequality. And at the end of the day global inequality is largely driven by poor political institutions in other countries, something that no amount of trade will ever solve. So you can import at much poverty as you want and export as much wealth, and all that wealth is just going to evaporate. And now you have a bunch of *local* poverty and a lot less wealth. Not really. There is far more to trade than the cost of unskilled labour... Yes, I'm sure that replacing cheap goods from China with more expensive goods from first world countries can be offset by just reducing Walmart's 2% profit margin. /s Africa is for raw materials. The thing I’d worry about is china buying up western infrastructure (farms, ports, etc) to bring stuff back home. The US is still the best place in the world. I have lived in a few different countries and travelled through others. This is as an unwanted immigrant and low skill laborer. Nowhere that I have experienced has the opportunities that the US has. Have you lived in China? If not go give it a try. Hmmm, set up shop in a state with little history of auto manufacturing to avoid unions and established workforce…then wonder why shit’s broken. A real head scratcher. >There will be economic losses, but they are paid for by the government, or taxpayer if you're more cynical. It's not cynical, it's a fact lol. Government can only ""pay"" for what it has (or will) take from someone else. As it turns out large beauracratic states are a very expensive burden on the population subsidizing it. Yeah absolutely. I believe it. My dads company silfex also has positions always hiring. They’re a Fortune 500. And one of many. trade doesn't kill jobs long-term, but it can accelerate trends so have actions taken more quickly than would have otherwise occurred. But similarly creates opportunities in that manner. The consensus by subject matter experts on this is not too dissimilar to what you see with climate change, and yet a lot of people refuse to accept it. E.g., poll of leading academic economists on impact of nafta. https://www.igmchicago.org/surveys/free-trade/ Manufacturing *output* didn't fall because of nafta or china joining wto, in fact it grew in the years that followed. Not because of it, but just kept on with the economic cycle. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/OUTMS Manufacturing jobs have been stagnant long before either and fell off during recessions. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MANEMP Reconciling those trends is the steady increase in labor productivity during the relevant period, which is effectively the impact of technology/automation. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MFGOPH The jobs that people think of as 'moving' to China b/c of trade, would have gone away regardless as they would have been automated. But the real extent of loses was driving by productivity gains from tech. And the places those jobs 'moved' to in China no longer have those jobs... they 'moved' elsewhere in China (central china) or to even lower cost countries. Simply put, those aren't good jobs and no would be benefit from bringing them back. The benefits from lower costs and freeing people up to work in better jobs exceed whatever the short term impact is from changes in trade policies. Free trade is effectively just reducing tariffs and compliance/transfer-type friction costs. If we divided the US in half, taxed everything that crossed it at 30%, made all goods wait three weeks at the border and imposed 2 different sets of standards that manufacturers had to spec to, there's no way that is going to make the overall economy of those two areas better. The long arc of trade naturally sees shifts of legacy roles to lower cost markets, just like jobs move around within the US. But imposing trade barriers doesn't save those jobs, it only defers their loss... and defers them in a value destroying way and defers creation of other jobs. again, look at the data when nafta went live or china joined the wto. or look at the opinions of subject matter experts. If we put tariffs of 30% on chinese goods, that isn't going to bring jobs to the US, it is going to increase prices (and likely result in countermeasures that will reduce exports). You probably witnessed China's policy of paying companies to move production lines through hundreds of millions of dollars of tax offsets and capped wages. The truth is that US output increased see my other comment linked below. Notably, manufacturing output did not fall when nafta was implemented or when China joined the WTO... https://www.reddit.com/r/finance/comments/vs2l1g/american_factories_are_making_stuff_again_as_ceos/ieze263/ > If the government mandated the chemical free farming, that chemical industry would shrink And so would crop yields. Significantly. Yeah, farmers would do great. Prices for food would soar. Thanks for the clarification and your insider knowledge. Is that also true for the US or just when factoring in cheap labor in foreign countries? I just keep hearing that companies in the US struggle to find workers for manual labor. [deleted] >China, historically and economically, is a weird country. It is a country that has almost always been rich, and in recent years has only been poor because of some historical oddities, e.g. their disastrous experiment with Maoist communism. But they've always had the cultural and human capital to be rich. China's economic development is better understood as a very long-term recovery. I think the Opium Wars, Western subjugation and the genocidal invasion and occupation of fascist Japan had more to do with it than the Communist takeover. Hell, under the Communists, China's economy has grown to almost surpass the United States in nominal terms, and has surpassed it in PPP. I think most of the world basically has the same story as China, it used to be rich until history reached their shores in the 17th-21st centuries. That was probably after they alienated all their customers. Source: alienated customer, Sears is dead to me. Plus it was never high end, just middling at a middling price Edited to add: I said people would pay for better quality, not just a label that claims “made in USA” from a company with a bad reputation Because it wasn’t any better. It was still cheaply made shit. It did, actually. Craftsman Tools had a lifetime warranty, where you could bring it back into the store and get a new one. They tried outsourcing to China, and what they got back were shitty tools that would break constantly. They eventually moved production back into the United States to stop that. It was only things like Land's End clothing, which were spun off under Lampert, that lost their lifetime return policy. To be fair to Sears, they were also shorted into oblivion by predatory hedge funds just like what Bain capital did to Toys ""R"" Us and Melvin tried to do to gamestop I just said above “even stuff that is expensive is made there now.” Apple would fall under that category. Edit: I see, you are saying not cheap as in low-quality vs cheap in price. IDK how old you are but I’ve been around long enough that my parents and grandparents had made-in-usa appliances etc. I touched the stuff, I used it. It was quality, you could buy it once and keep it all your life. You could hand it on to kids and grandkids. I grew up, I bought the same brands of stuff the same places they got their stuff. It is cheap. It is almost all, like almost everything these days, from China. It feels cheap to the touch. It doesn’t last more than 5-10 years before breaking, certainly not a lifetime anymore. You can have your lived experience, I have mine. I remember the quality things had when they were made in USA (or UK or various European countries) and I have had the displeasure of seeing how the quality changes when factories move their operations to China. US is still the 2nd largest manufacturer. Also the whole article is bs. Intel has manufactured most of its silicon in the US forever. They're just trying to make other people's chips too so they don't have to go to other vendors. TSMC was already building a fab in the US, pre-Trump and pre-covid. It just didn't make it online before covid and chip shortage hit. Also most of the new fabs make the fancy new cpus and gpus. Older ones make the super cheap every day chips that were more the subject of shortages for electronics goods. It's certainly good to have more options and capacity built in the US. It will bring jobs but it isn't completely replacing foreign production and jobs with domestic. People will still go to TSMC and Samsung if their process and price are competitive. If China completely swallows Taiwan and TSMC there might be some hesitancy to losing ip. Certainly the US government benefits on contracts that require all US sourcing. if you read to the bottom where the fine print is son: ""This is, of course, a nascent trend. And so many manufacturing jobs were lost here over so many decades -- about 8 million from peak to trough -- that almost no one would argue that the current trend marks a return to those halcyon times. The rise of automation, which has eliminated many low-skilled, low-paid jobs, means US factories today require a much smaller group of workers."" so even that which is coming back, it's not really particularly useful in the context of improving job mart. Whatever ya say son When scientists managed to reach the lowest point in the ocean, they found a pair of pants there. Ummm... ima boomer. I USE some these ""systems"". I grew up in 70's and 80's, we were gettin fucked in Regan world. That's when the usa started destroying the middle class and it wasn't ME, or any of US doin it., shit, we were 15, 20, 25 at most and 5YO at least. How the f were we doing anything to you?? Paul Krugman is an attention whore that once thought the internet would be a failure because people have nothing to say to each other. He also predicted cryptocurrency wouldn't work after it was already working (as a basic method of transaction). It looks like you shared an AMP link. These should load faster, but AMP is controversial because of [concerns over privacy and the Open Web](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot). Maybe check out **the canonical page** instead: **[https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/paul-krugman-raises-the-white-flag-on-trade/](https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/paul-krugman-raises-the-white-flag-on-trade/)** ***** ^(I'm a bot | )[^(Why & About)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot)^( | )[^(Summon: u/AmputatorBot)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/cchly3/you_can_now_summon_amputatorbot/) Paul Krugman is also the guy who took the contrarian position in the 90s that the internet was just a fad and wouldn't end up having a significant economic or social impact. The list of things Paul Krugman was seriously wrong about is a lot longer than the list of things he's been right about. Good job there’s a labour shortage then. Thankfully most kids growing up know their self worth now. Used to be you had to come to America to work in a factory to put your kids through college so they could be too good to work in a factory :oldmanyellsatcloud: They still have economies of scale and lack of regulations on their side making up for that... and without a billion people to work on it we might just not be able to compensate for that. Regulation regulates, it does not claim to promote efficiency or improvement. Regulation is a necessary evil for a flawed system, which all systems inherently are. Free market or not. To what degree I do not know, but your argument isn't really fair to the actual point. Clumsily put. I had in mind the phrase ""[better angels of our nature](https://www.the-american-interest.com/2019/07/04/better-angels-in-our-past/)"". That's a comparison between the best and worst of America, not meant to be, and certainly not, an example of American exceptionalism. Is geopolitics ok? Yeah, it's not the cheapest but it would be better to enrich one's friends instead of one's adversaries. And America has plenty of friends who are in need of some of our wealth. I don’t disagree with your main point, but technically it is a gain (free trade) and a part of that gain goes to laborers in developmental countries. But sacrificing your blue collar workers for cheap stuff and richer capitalists has hardly been a recipe for success in the western part of the world. Just to clarify the point I think you’re making. Globalization only applies to capital. Capital is free to traverse the globe searching for cheap labor. This system is only going to work if labor is globalized too and has the ability to traverse the globe as easy as capital. Since “free trade” only applies to capital and not labor, globalization will never work. You’re butthurt about my comment because you’re worried about your 0.5 stock shares in Walmart or you’re just a boot licker Eventually manufacturing as well K, pay me to move. Hyperbole isn't that effective when called to task. Forced birthing into soon to be prison slave labor isn't my idea of ""best"" in any sense. Unaffordable healthcare, low wages, racist police state, everything I mentioned in the previous comment, governmental insider trading, etc. Maybe you should have traveled more. And a reason you were ""unwanted"" here, if that's what you're referring to, is because of these same prison labor forces undercutting workers in their own states, states that already have ridiculously low pay but are backed by blue state funds (outside of Texas), and then having the racist populous get told immigrants are taking their jobs. But keep rooting for the bad guy, you do you, you're clearly more travelled than I. Why the sarcasm? Why would any company take an alternative path? It’s not a head scratcher, it’s a lesson.. thanks for playing You're doing God's work Can't believe I had to scroll this much to find the first good comment Great reply. A lot of these jobs are jobs that no one should work because they are unsafe, horrible for the environment, etc. don’t bring them back, get rid of them with automation and use the gains in productivity to provide support to the people who don’t need to work any longer Free trade with countries operating in a different regulatory framework just leads to the immiseration of both the chinese and amercan workers as well as the destruction of the environment. Manufacturing didn't move to China because they are geniuses at making things cheaper. It moved there because it was OK to work people like slaves and there were no environmental rules. The idea that tariffs will lead to less jobs in america is also questionable. I would actually support even harsher tariffs or an embargo on all goods from places that pollute the world as china does. No amount of money will fix the damage done to the natural world. I'm not an expert on this, but NAFTA and China joining the WTO are relatively recent. We've been offshoring to cheap labor long before then. I agree that automation has reduced the headcount required to do things; versus a 1940s factory with thousands of workers doing things by hand, you have fewer workers doing more. That doesn't change the fact that production facilities, maybe with smaller total headcount, are often not in the US. There are absolutely some jobs we don't want back because they're crappy. Everything I design day to day for my job, gets chosen by management whether to send to a foreign vendor or a local vendor and incur a higher cost and I make small quantities of things versus entire production lines. I see the quotes and decisions day to day. And this happens for many thousands of things daily. Even with automation, manufacturing still requires skilled trades workers and right now we utilize plenty overseas instead of here. The resurgence of manufacturing in the US would rely on automation to keep prices low, but the decision to do so is the result of managers all over the world getting stressed out as covid brought production and shipping/logistics to a halt. So they want a backup solution and are willing to blow capital on it to help make their products and jobs a bit more pandemic/future proof. Plus any tax credits they can sweet talk the government into to help subsidize that investment. Why would the price of cross soar if the crop yields start the same, or go up while the farmers are making more money? Edit for more context: The farming includes not tilling and minimal need for chemicals. The crops have been shown to yield the same amount or more while needing less work from the farmers. Sorry, I didn't get your point but I agree with what you said. My colleague is currently implementing automation in a very heavy labor intensive job. You're very correct and perhaps you did have some experience with automation. At UPS for example, robots or conveyor belts, only one belt, will affect 30,000 packages making up let's say 50% of deliveries. Of course laborers became more efficient back 19 years ago with the implementation of a kanban like system and you paid attention to the labels on a UPS box, you will see why. Because before, workers had to remember zip codes and addresses to know how to load vehicles or relay packages. With the labels, you can hire anyone on the sport and they will know where to place packages or relay packages by that very simplistic label. Mao killed more Chinese than the Imperial Japanese could ever dream of. Death toll for WW2 China is around 20 million, Maos total death toll ranges from a conservative 40 million, to a more liberal 80 million figure due to his various policies and decisions. You are talking about old school appliances when the manufacturing paradigm in the us was different. Planned obsoletion is the paradigm in America now, nothing is really built to last. Biggest case in point, American cars. Biggest piles of dogshit in existence and I’d rather drive a Hyundai than a Ford. Bringing back manufacturing to the us won’t change a thing, we need laws in place that provide minimum 3 year warranty on things made in the US, or something. I think Europe has laws like this but I could be wrong. We don’t need to “replace foreign manufacturing” the current job market is the tightest ever. Bringing these jobs back is a good thing even if they require fewer people because the labor market has changed and there are more “digital jobs” and some manufacturing jobs have been replaced by warehouse, delivery and other gig jobs It’s almost as if he can’t predict the future. The future payments from these companies will be in the form of Likes. Higher performing members will get a bonus 1000 likes every month. So no worries. Things that guy would do if left to his own devices...... * sign off on dumping heavy metal sludge into US waterways at Dow Chemical * Refuse upgrade key ignition system while working for GM * Allow an early morning launch of the Space Shuttle knowing cold temperatures were outside of the tolerance of blow-off valves That's what lack of regulation amd peer review gets you dead customers and voters that want your head on a stake. >I don’t disagree with your main point, but technically it is a gain (free trade) and a part of that gain goes to laborers in developmental countries. Only part of that gain goes the labor in developing countries. The main benefit goes to the capitalists seeking cheap labor. >But sacrificing your blue collar workers for cheap stuff and richer capitalists has hardly been a recipe for success in the western part of the world. We are not sacrificing jobs for cheap stuff, but for capitals ability to have “free trade” If we stick true to what “free trade” actually means, it would apply to labor and capital, not just capital as it operates today. Got any articles to support that? No one payed for me I’m sure you can figure it out. In my experience actually living in different countries the US is the best. It doesn’t mean there isn’t anything wrong and that people should be complacent. My point being, they wanted to avoid the UAW and setup shop in a place with no core competencies…of course with plenty of tax credits. And then they face tarnishing their image of reliability and sit and wonder why. Well, I don’t feel bad for them. On top of that when china finally decided to ""crack down"" on environmental regulations then manufacturing just cheated and would run at night when big brother was not watching. They are a joke in some regards to environmental regulation. >Free trade with countries operating in a different regulatory framework just leads to the immiseration of both the chinese and amercan workers as well as the destruction of the environment. Manufacturing didn't move to China because they are geniuses at making things cheaper. It moved there because it was OK to work people like slaves and there were no environmental rules. Nations freely trading goods and services necessitates slave labor? And artificially increasing their costs will make it all better? Am I following correctly? Labor arbitrage has been going on for centuries, if not millennia. Again, I think the general consensus by subject matter experts on it is that this is value creating for both sides of the equation, although admittedly less developed nations likely benefit more from it (but still pie enlarging, particularly when factor in global stability). >That doesn't change the fact that production facilities, maybe with smaller total headcount, are often not in the US. Sure, but if you were to move that production from central China to Sacramento, inside of having 1000 chinese workers making that output with mundane tech, you'd have 50 american workers doing it with hi-tech. And cost of goods for everyone would be higher. The % of total jobs in manufacturing has been falling steady. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/USAPEFANA That *isn't* a bad thing. Obviously when look at our labor situation today, its not like swapping jobs americans have today for manufacturing jobs in central china is a good swap for anyone. Farm equipment killed a lot of jobs too, getting rid them was a huge enabler for economic/industrial/urban progress. Do we want to bring those jobs back too? They exist is a lot of places around the world... >The resurgence of manufacturing in the US would rely on automation to keep prices low, but the decision to do so is the result of managers all over the world getting stressed out as covid brought production and shipping/logistics to a halt. So they want a backup solution and are willing to blow capital on it to help make their products and jobs a bit more pandemic/future proof. Plus any tax credits they can sweet talk the government into to help subsidize that investment. It was starting before covid as new tech is allowing smaller batch production at more affordable levels and automation has even further reduced labor need. At some point the cost/uncertainty of transit outweighs the benefit of low labor. But still not going to be a flood of unskilled jobs, these aren't plants & machinery being lifted from central china and being run with US workers... and like the acceleration trend you see with reducing barriers, you see the acceleration when you impose them like Trump's nonsense with china. e.g., [this article from july 2019 in The Economist](https://www.economist.com/special-report/2019/07/11/supply-chains-are-undergoing-a-dramatic-transformation) (assume you will it paywall, so excerpt below): >But now there are signs that the golden age of globalisation may be over, and the great convergence is giving way to a slow unravelling of those supply chains. Global trade growth has fallen from 5.5% in 2017 to 2.1% this year, by the oecd’s reckoning. Global regulatory harmonisation has given way to local approaches, such as Europe’s data-privacy laws. Cross-border investment dropped by a fifth last year. Soaring wages and environmental costs are leading to a decline in the “cheap China” sourcing model. >The immediate threat comes from President Donald Trump’s imposition of tariffs on America’s trading partners and renegotiation of free-trade agreements, which have disrupted long-standing supply chains in North America and Asia. On June 29th, Mr Trump agreed a truce with Xi Jinping, China’s president, that temporarily suspends his threatened imposition of duties of up to 25% on $325bn-worth of Chinese imports, but leaves in place all previous tariffs imposed during the trade war. He threatened in May to impose tariffs on all imports from Mexico if it did not crack down on immigration, but reversed himself in June. He has delayed till November a decision on whether to impose tariffs on automobile imports, which would hit European manufacturers hard. >Look beyond politics, though, and you will find that supply chains were already undergoing the most rapid change in decades in response to deeper trends in business, technology and society. The rise of Amazon, Alibaba and other e-commerce giants has persuaded consumers that they can have an endless variety of products delivered instantly. This is putting enormous pressure on mncs to modify and modernise their supply chains to keep pace with advancing innovations and evolving consumer preferences. Then why would the govt need to mandate it versus the farmers switching bc more profitable and easier... [deleted] Yeah, if it’s gonna be made in USA with a corresponding price, it needs to be old-school quality. Same lack of quality is not gonna work. Even medium quality would be a huge improvement, just some hint the company cares about what they’re making, and not just about doing the bare minimum to get people to buy stuff that breaks the second it leaves the store. Gig jobs, by design are low pay with no benefits etc. We need careers that'll give people better upward mobility and have a chance at supporting there future/family/retirement. A lot of Gig jobs seem to prey on people's need for immediate money and poor grasp of long term costs like insurance and maintenance and fuel. Warehouse and delivery in particular are horrible jobs micromanaging people's seconds forcing them to pee in bottles and they don't pay great. So unless we're magically gonna have a strong labor movement and have it survive our political and judiciary which are bought and paid for by the corporations that want to avoid such things, no those jobs aren't equivalent. Paul Krugman couldn't predict a popcorn fart at a movie theater. Well, he was Enron's ""economic advisor."" He is pushing an agenda, writing papers to support it and is surprised that his vision fails once the light of the real world squashes it. So that I understand what you are asking for, is it Chinese owned American businesses? Here is a short list of Chinese owned or majority shareholder. [https://prepareforchange.net/2021/10/15/list-of-us-companies-secretly-owned-by-china-tesla-microsoft-gm-uber/](https://prepareforchange.net/2021/10/15/list-of-us-companies-secretly-owned-by-china-tesla-microsoft-gm-uber/) I'm sorry? I live in America, living paycheck to paycheck even though I make near six figures due to the crippling debt I needed to go into to meet the requirements for the field I'm in. It's your idea buddy, you want me to experience your life, pay me for it. That's capitalism bud, welcome to the suck. No. Trading with countries that use slave labor necessitates slave labor. The current tariffs are not high enough to actually stop this, but could be made high enough if we really cared about the Chinese slaves or American workers or the environment. People need a push at times. You're very intelligent. I totally agree with you ...and this is from a guy who works in a factory. Good joke. Original statement still stands. That’s not capitalism at all. I don’t want anything for you. You are the one who thinks it’s better elsewhere than you should go experience it. I have worked 100+ hrs per week getting me from homeless to what I think is a decent life. Perspective and experience is the key I started working at 12 and have been working since for most of my life even debt wasn’t an option. Your shackles are view by others as a privilege. People *never* need a push to do less work, spend less money, and yield higher profits. Ever. Your suggestion that yield would be the same or greater is absolute bullshit. Paul Krugman is a nonsense person and nothing he says matters. I trust reddit comments more. That is capitalism, I'm capitalizing on your demand to have me see other countries. I didn't say I want to go to China, but it would be nice, pay me. LABOR is my good, and I'm selling you my labor to go to another country at the cost that you pay for it. That's supply and demand. Should go, sounds like a demand to me. I grew up on a farm working since the age of 5, worked rotating shifts through power plants over 60 hours a week, management over 80 hour work weeks on SALARY, until my current job now where I happily work 40 unless I have to travel. I had a retail job at Target for a year and a half and it was the worst working experience of my life, so that's the only position I've worked under 50 hours a week in, with a schedule so variable you couldn't take another job. That's over 20 years of working well over 40 hours a week and only NOW can I see an end to my debt in 2026 at the age of 32. Your 100 hour flex is neat, good for you, you got 20 years of it? What's the privilege then? Being a single person? Underfunded healthcare and cities to live in? High crime rates all around me? Having to go to college for the price of a house and work 4 years on an education the market demanded, graduating into a job pool that didn't exist to save the value of some boomer's house? To have worked in a shit hole country that has more wealth than anywhere in the world but is held on to? Haven't fucking lived yet, so if all I'm going to do is work my whole life, what's the point? You may call work ""living"", but at that point it's just Stockholm Syndrome. You aren't your job, you're a fucking person. Your job can get you what you need in life, but if it is your life, as every job I've been in has been, you don't have an actual life. You are defined by capitalism. You aren't an explorer or adventurer or artist or connoisseur, and the only way you get there isn't even through hard work. It's all opportunity and privilege. 1/3 of the US makes $15/hr or less with the lowest cost to live in state, Mississippi, at a COL of over $18/hr. This is wage slavery for anyone making less than that anywhere in the US. Meanwhile my dad was grandfathered over pay caps instituted in the housing crash and made $24/hr stocking shelves back in 2011, a wage front line workers USED TO HAVE, that is now gone, pocketed for profits. Keep in mind, that's my life being BORN here. It's the life of my generation to have 6 figures of debt in their 40s for the sake of ""our great country"". Literally ""slaves to greatness"". You bring 0 evidence that my argument is bullshit. Have a good one. I believe the preferred term is ""silly"". I have no demands for you and likely never will. It’s a mere suggestion that you experience the things you are talking about. At the age of 12 I started working for others working for the family was expected and required part of the reason I didn’t stay. Sorry you feel like you do but there are people like me who find a way to make it work or live a very similar life as you and are happy. What do you attribute that to? How is it that the highest earning demographic in the USA is immigrants? They often come here with nothing build huge student debts and end up wealthy. Here's the evidence: common sense. If it were possible to cut spending while keeping yields constant or even *growing* yields, then it would have happened. It's a competitive market. Reality is the evidence. but you brought no evidence for your original claim either, so we're all just going off common sense here, which goes against your claim I agree. No real evidence from me. I don't know the documentary name. It's on Netflix. So it's not a doi paper. I never looked for those. I'm too damn lazy to do that stuff for areddit post." Russian oligarchs lose $32B as Ukraine crisis escalates,3079,https://www.foxbusiness.com/money/russian-oligarchs-lose-wealth-ukraine-crisis-escalates,"Oh no! So anyways, $32 Billion so far…. Hodl!! If they don't sell it isn't a loss. 🤔 If these oligarchs hold PM’s they have actually gained….. you may want to look into that.. The US and EU should just seize all overseas Russian assets. Should also end all imports/exports and international travel with Russia forever. What are they going do about it? This is not the “Ukraine crisis” it is the Russian-Ukraine war. Actually they haven't lost anything local, since the Russian exchange is shut down. If they shorted internationally ahead of the invasion, they made TONS. UBS just cut Russian government bond value to 0 Good. Maybe they'll do something about Vlad now. Maybe they can fund the new MLB season since they can afford to take losses like that, wait is this the wrong sub Dear Ukrainians! I heard on social media that there is fake news being spread (most likely by Russia backed trolls) that polish border is closed. It's a lie. If you seek asylum - go towards polish border. We are ready for your arrival. We have reception points ready at the border where you can find shelter, food, medical and legal aid. Polish government launched a dedicated site to help you: ua.gov.pl Please share this information if you know anyone seeking help right now. EDIT: YOU DON'T NEED VISA TO PASS THROUGH POLISH BORDER. ALL YOU NEED IS PASSPORT. VISAS ARE SUSPENDED! YOU DON'T NEED THEM FOR TIME BEING!!!!!! EDIT2: as a proof that you no longer need visa: • ⁠in Ukrainian https://www.gov.pl/web/udsc/ukraina---ua • ⁠in English https://www.gov.pl/web/udsc/ukraina-en Copy and paste anywhere you can! Spread the word! LoL, I love reddit, its like intelligence elementary school, but... they are actual articles. They didnt lose 32b, they pulled it out of the market. SMH how can these reporters feed themselves, seriously they need corks on their forks to keep from doing more harm than good... at breakfast... When the economic sanctions kick in, these guys are probably going to buy up Russian and Ukrainian assets paying pennies on the dollar. Putin and his oligarch buddies take care of each other. Perhaps Russian assets should be confiscated and all proceeds given to the Ukrainian people Fox business be like “how do we protect them from these sanctions?” what is 32b for them? probably like the average citizen loosing one thousand dollars. it will hurt but wont make them broke. the sad part is that those oligarchs will recover while the Ukrainian people that will get their lives affected by this will not. You see a shift when become 100 billion, then you might even see a spike in crypto purchasing and farming. The consequences to this are going be very interesting [deleted] Dear Ukrainians! I heard on social media that there is fake news being spread (most likely by Russia backed trolls) that polish border is closed. It's a lie. If you seek asylum - go towards polish border. We are ready for your arrival. We have reception points ready at the border where you can find shelter, food, medical and legal aid. Polish government launched a dedicated site to help you: ua.gov.pl Please share this information if you know anyone seeking help right now. EDIT: YOU DON'T NEED VISA TO PASS THROUGH POLISH BORDER. ALL YOU NEED IS PASSPORT. VISAS ARE SUSPENDED! YOU DON'T NEED THEM FOR TIME BEING!!!!!! EDIT2: as a proof that you no longer need visa: • ⁠in Ukrainian https://www.gov.pl/web/udsc/ukraina---ua • ⁠in English https://www.gov.pl/web/udsc/ukraina-en Edit: this is a copy and paste and I encourage you all to do it too where appropriate! У соцмережах я чув, що поширюються фейкові новини (скоріше за все, підтримувані Росією тролі), що польський кордон закритий. Це брехня. Якщо ви шукаєте притулку – йдіть до польського кордону. Ми готові до вашого приїзду. На кордоні готові пункти прийому, де ви можете знайти притулок, їжу, медичну та правову допомогу. Польський уряд запустив спеціальний сайт, щоб допомогти вам: ua.gov.pl Будь ласка, поділіться цією інформацією, якщо ви знаєте когось, хто зараз шукає допомоги. РЕДАКТИРОВАТИ: ВАМ НЕ ПОТРІБНА ВІЗА ДЛЯ ПРОЙДЖЕННЯ ПОЛЬСЬКИМ КОРДОНОМ. ВСЕ, що ВАМ ПОТРІБНО, - це ПАСПОРТ. ВІЗИ ПРИСПИНЕНО! ВОНИ ВАМ НЕ ПОТРІБНИ НА ЧАС!!!!!! EDIT2: як доказ того, що вам більше не потрібна віза: • ⁠українською https://www.gov.pl/web/udsc/ukraina---ua • ⁠англійською https://www.gov.pl/web/udsc/ukraina-en Вибачте, якщо це дурниця, я використовував Don’t try to legitimize Fox Fake News which is essentially an affiliate of RT now Get wrecked, leaches A drop in the bucket unfortunately. Where is trump going to get his campaign funds from then? likley not hurting them enough. Good, fuck those assholes. Can they still convert into chinese currency? F every single one of them - I’m sure parking their super yachts In Vladivostok will be great. I hear the beaches get to the upper 50’s in the summer… Yea. I'm sure they're all riding their bikes down to the store to get some ramen noodles for dinner. I have a question. Or more like a few. Putin has 631 billion saved up and I guess he’s using that right now to prop up the rubble and Moscow exchange and companies. How quickly will he burn through the 631 billion? I have no idea how any of this works (I just assume it’s pretty costly and the current price of the rubble is artificially inflated and won’t come back alive any time soon). What do you think? Poor Russian oligarchs, might have to settle for a tiny 300 ft superyacht instead of the usual 400ft+ superyacht this year. I hope they lose *all* the billions! Only shaved about 200 billion USD or so off their market today. Russia can get FUCKED. Okay, but how much Chinese Yuan are they getting instead? They already said they were going to confiscate money from ordinary citizens to make up for it. Directly from the banks. FOX is in the pockets of the Soviet Union But Fox said this is just propaganda by the west and TPusa said this is all natos fault. Oh noooo They lose $32 billion in the short term, I don’t think the Oligarchs would have allowed Putin to pull this shit without a solid explanation about how it benefits them in the long run Don’t worry. Hold on. Putin has been drinking lead laced wine. Probably has syphilis to boot. I’m sure nobody wants his prize. What’s a country with a GDP not in top 10 going to do? Definitely guarantee of not reaching old age. Remember that his move was “Genius” from someone wearing Depends. Let that register. Bleed these Russian bastard oligarchs dry! Make them pay. Make their mistresses weep. Fuck them. More coverage at: * [Fear, disbelief on Ukraine border as Russia invades (msn.com)](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/fear-disbelief-on-ukraine-border-as-russia-invades/ar-AAUfYvQ) * [Oil jumps to $105, gas prices surge and global stocks tumble after Ukraine invasion – business live (theguardian.com)](https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2022/feb/24/oil-prices-rise-100-global-stock-markets-plunge-russia-invades-ukraine-business-live) * [How Putin's attack on Ukraine unfolded inside the White House (cnn.com)](https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/24/politics/inside-white-house-during-ukraine-attack/index.html) --- ^(I'm a bot to find news from different sources.) [^(Report an issue)](https://www.reddit.com/user/MultiSourceNews_Bot/comments/k5pcrc/multisourcenews_bot_info/) ^(or PM me.) Down with Russia! Down with Putin! Шановні українці! У соцмережах я чув, що поширюються фейкові новини (скоріше за все, підтримувані Росією тролі), що польський кордон закритий. Це брехня. Якщо ви шукаєте притулку – йдіть до польського кордону. Ми готові до вашого приїзду. На кордоні готові пункти прийому, де ви можете знайти притулок, їжу, медичну та правову допомогу. Польський уряд запустив спеціальний сайт, щоб допомогти вам: ua.gov.pl Будь ласка, поділіться цією інформацією, якщо ви знаєте когось, хто зараз шукає допомоги. РЕДАКТИРОВАТИ: ВАМ НЕ ПОТРІБНА ВІЗА ДЛЯ ПРОЙДЖЕННЯ ПОЛЬСЬКИМ КОРДОНОМ. ВСЕ, що ВАМ ПОТРІБНО, - це ПАСПОРТ. ВІЗИ ПРИСПИНЕНО! ВОНИ ВАМ НЕ ПОТРІБНИ НА ЧАС!!!!!! EDIT2: як доказ того, що вам більше не потрібна віза: • ⁠українською https://www.gov.pl/web/udsc/ukraina---ua • ⁠англійською https://www.gov.pl/web/udsc/ukraina-en Вибачте, якщо це дурниця, я використовував Google Translate I skipped to read if I see the source of article is composed of \***fox**\*. There are oligarchs in Ukraine. Russia just claiming their lost territory back. MORE F That seems like pennies. Not enough until it’s a T not a B That should piss them off. Perhaps Putin has bit off more than he can chew. they dont loose unless they sell. just as bezos does not earn unless he sells. we gotta FUCK the oligarchs hard. They'll just be confiscating it from the Russian people. They haven’t lost anything Stocks are down and will recover Most are probably buying at the moment Populist who think sanctions on oligarchs will deter Russian aggression are mistakenly applying what they’ve learned about the role of money in politics under Democracy to an authoritarian society. Oligarchs work for Putin. They don’t have influence over his decisions. Zuckerberg lost that in a day Haaaaaaa! LOSERS! Good! Now make sure their assets stay frozen until they overthrow their shameful excuse of a leader that made them all rich to begin with. Give it to Ukraine!! Good I don’t want to sound weird but does anyone know why Ukraine didn’t move their troops to the Russian border and prepare to blockade border crossings while Russia moved their troops in plain sight to their border? It looks as though in the main the Russian land-based troops are just driving into Ukraine unopposed. Still not enough. $375 billion -> $343 billion Lol If they have an ounce of intelligence. Which based on there net worth power they probably do.. they have the money in many different ventures, accounts, trusts etc. You can hide if you know how \*the wrong Oligarchs FTFY. i'm sure they appreciated that They all shorted the stocks knowing what was going to happen. They are all richer. That’s it? Geesh It’s not nearly enough. Tighten it more. Good take it all Oh boo hoo. I’m sure they are just devastated by this. My ❤️ bleeds for their loss... NOT! They deserve everything that they get... but should feel more pain in their pockets! They should lose more because the Ukrainian people are losing everything!! Nice! So does this mean that the oligarchs are also against this war along with the majority or the Russian citizens and probably even Military to some extent? Like no matter what the outcome of this is everybody in the world already doesn’t like it and they won’t soon forget. Did he declare war then go “whoops, I forgot our economy was directly connected to the rest of the planet…” Good Good. There's a certain american dataminer and napster enthusiast who lost $50 billion a couple weeks and and he's still going strong. Somehow the scum always survives the crisis while the rest of us die. Oh always hate when oligarchs have a bad day. Dang it. How much does this matter in the long run when they still have control over Ukraine? Putin texting his bros ""HODL"" It’s not enough… Oh no !!!!!! Anyway Unrealized loss lol like US tech Billionnaire The irony of using a Fox article for this post. You couldn’t have chosen a non-Putin puppet network? Fucker Carlson literally defending Putin on Fox as “just defending his western border”. There was s a Ukraine subreddit. Just fyi. /r/ukraine $130 non in gold helps. I wish there was a way we could artificially deflate gold but I’m pretty sure that’s difficult Another bad day for Zukerburg? Not enough That’s value, not in terms of assets Clean them all out, freeze all assets, if all Russian cronies. Dear Ukrainians! I heard on social media that there is fake news being spread (most likely by Russia backed trolls) that polish border is closed. It's a lie. +++AS OF NOW MALES AGED 18-60 ARE NOT ABLE TO LEAVE THE BORDERS DUE TO MARTIAL LAW. ANYONE ELSE IS OK AS FAR AS I KNOW.+++ If you seek asylum - go towards polish border. We are ready for your arrival. We have reception points ready at the border where you can find shelter, food, medical and legal aid. Polish government launched a dedicated site to help you: ua.gov.pl Please share this information if you know anyone seeking help right now. YOU DON'T NEED VISA TO PASS THROUGH POLISH BORDER. ALL YOU NEED IS PASSPORT. VISAS ARE SUSPENDED! YOU DON'T NEED THEM FOR TIME BEING!!!!!! proof that you no longer need visa: • ⁠in Ukrainian https://www.gov.pl/web/udsc/ukraina---ua • ⁠in English https://www.gov.pl/web/udsc/ukraina-en copied from u/everysir to spread awareness! please spread on relevant threads to get the word out!!! To add to this, there is a FB page called Georgians for Ukraine , where people in geoegia are offering asylum to Ukrainians/offering recourses. There are 3.3k people in the group, and it is post after post of people offering up their house to host people. Edit- it's up to 4.6k now. EDIT A POLISH REDDITOR REACHED OUT TO ME AND TOLD ME THE FOLLOWING MESSAGE. I AM SHARING FOR VISIBILITY. Ukrainian citizens can enter Poland with ANY form of ID. It can be passport, ID, even birth certificate of accompanying children. The document can be even expired. This info comes directly from our border guard. We're ready to take even more than million people, the refugee centers are ready and residents of towns near border are even volunteering to take people in their homes. [Good, good…](https://youtu.be/iN7_O-2Kixw) Seems it would be cost effective for any affected oligarch to hire Putin's security detail for $1M per man to remove him like Kruschev. Wonder how their crypto is doing. How much of there cash is in South Dakota. I would like to know please..... Anyone wants to share financial sites subscriptions like SeekingAlpha, CNBC, Bloomberg? PM me please. Hope we can get to a couple bucks a month and enjoy the news together! I also like to share Disney+, Google One (storage), Spotify, etc if anyone is interested. _oh yes!_ $32B so far… Exactly. It’s paper money. It’s almost a fiction. These people live in marble palaces and feast on fine wine and wild game. They must do as they are told or they lose everything, they risk death, and their family is punished. They are ready for sanctions. It's missing three zeroes. Id buy the Ukraine for 32b. Hope the loss porn gets reported to r/wallstreetbets They might not even be able to sell if their accounts are frozen or they can access cash anyway Depends, lots of those are foreign assets that are going to be subject to sanction and might just disappear altogether. Right The plebs will sell, and the oligarchs will buy discounted prices. Rich get richer, poor get poorer What's a PM? Palladium has been ramping up with this crises. Rough number I quickly found on Google listed Russia as 40% of global palladium mining supply. Primordial Moose If I were head of a mafia petrostate running on a mythology that the world is teaming up against my people, what would I do if that fever dream came true? Rally nationalist pride in support of more escalated military attacks on my neighbors with nukes in my pocket. Isn’t there money in cash sitting in a warehouse somewhere. They need some Nobody to go in and get it . Feel bad about punishing Russian vendors that have no connection to the decision made to invade Ukraine? Oh wait, you were talking about Russia. Well, this is Faux News, the same entertainment hub that referred to the invasion this morning as a “special operation.” Yeah honestly I was wondering if russian funds and banks loaded up on shorts Is it insider trading if I’m putin and I traded before my invasion? If they were shorting enough to recoup that amount of losses, it would have crashed the market before this happened Unlikely. They wouldn't have a penny to begin with if it wasn't for their connections to Vlad. What political power do they have to flex? Or is it? >you might even see a spike in crypto purchasing I agree. The value of crypto fell significantly after the invasion, but this also represents an opportunity to ""buy low""... Correct Who would they sell Ukraine to? Not if you lose Russia in the process Exactly. Link? Good thing the Soviet Union dissolved in the 90s. The mistresses? Try posting from a name older than 7 days comrade. I think the Ukrainians are likely going to flank the Russians 🤔 Because fighting in open, flat fields isn't smart when the enemy has a larger airforce. Agreed. This implies much more than it should, since values swing with the markets. Until they sell or lock in those losses, it's just wild fluctuations. Indeed, I’m fairly certain their markets have lost over half their value And hopefully WSB is bullish on Russia which will make it continue to go down of course. #inverseWSB got damn love me sum loss pr0nz Naw they are rooting for war, it’s always profitable. Precious metals Prime masturbators pooping. monkey Penis Mightier Poop machine Is he not already doing that? I wonder what Putin's life expectancy would be if he did that. Very short. Mutually assured destruction is in nobody's best interest. Oh NOOOO, you'd do the thing that Putin is already trying to do?! The horror! We better not seize all those assets then or Putin might start attempting the thing he's already attempting! I agree, but OP could have chosen better language for the title. That’s what it was called this morning on many sites regardless of their political leanings. Stupid for Fox not to update the title though Ain't gonna be worth dick if they can't cash it into USD and the ruble turns into dust. Shit you think that’s the end goal here? Because this entire thing seems kinda crazy. This actually makes sense to me. Shit you think that’s the end goal here? Because this entire thing seems kinda crazy. This actually makes sense to me. I mean who could have seen this coming ? /s Doesn't matter. Insider trading isn't illegal in Russia. Just feed and supply the rioting crowds and you'll attract an army. Putin is trying to get the band back together again. They come with their yachts & beachside dachas. 🙄 OK Lady. Cynic inside me says all their money is tied up in Swiss shadow accounts and they're just sitting on their yachts, looking at a .5% blip on their portfolio and shrug it off. It would probably be more effective to seize their mansions and deny visas. Not being able to party in Kitzbühel or whatever is probably a bigger annoyance to them. I really hate that media calls stock price reductions as losses. Next year nobody is writing a headline with “oligarchs gained 50 bil in stocks”. It kinda shows that the sanctions aren’t as effective as they probably need to be. I'm hoping for more. The regular citizens hurt from it, but the oligarchs hurt more. Not even a meme but if you do the opposite of what the hottest posts are saying you will probably make the correct choice. I swear that sub is full of manipulation and autism. Just like WSB it’s only a loss if they sell by the loss porn is great to see currently Wait, wait… Are you selling penis mightiers? Putin is boxing himself into a corner. His own destruction might eventually become inevitable. At that point, what does he care if he takes the rest of the world out with him. I doubt that's where all this is headed though. But I h early feel like psychopaths don’t care if civilization persists after they are gone/not in power any longer. Eh, OP is only quoting the title of the article being referenced. I say, keep it as is and let people see (once again) how many twists and turns Fox ""News"" takes when reporting. They are moving from USD to Euro and Chinese Yuan... No, it’s not and can’t be the end goal. They don’t have such liquidity for this to be be end goal worth fucking up the economy for. End of the day, it’s nigh impossible to keep and grow that worth through westerners public markets trading. Most of the oligarchs made that money through businesses in russia which are now fucked No just to hedge Came here to say this, but you said it better than I was going to. I love partying in Kitzbuhel, that’s why I dont start wars. Was wondering same because article doesn’t mention if this is merely a stock price dip that will return when sanctions are removed. As such this ain’t no sanction. That's the fun IMO Putin is looking for a legacy at this point, I doubt he wants his legacy to be causing a nuclear holocaust. If he reunifies USSR to some extent he'd be the biggest thing since Lenin or Stalin. I think he would rather be seen as a devotee of the grand reunification of the Soviet empire even in failure. This action demonstrates he is beyond restraint. A mad man that threatens the entire World with nuclear war is a mad man that must be killed before he pushes the button. Putin has threatened us all with nuclear weapons. That’s a real death threat and the World should act accordingly. Putin must go." One of the greatest financial historians alive says central bankers have been incompetent for decades and inflation is our 'big hangover',2891,https://fortune.com/2022/07/29/inflation-hangover-central-banks-to-blame-edward-chancellor-biden-capitalism/,"Can someone post the economists name The Fed has been so dovish the last 15 years no one believes they can stay hawkish for more than a year. The current market conditions are signaling to the Fed they have to be far more hawkish to kill the easy money optimism. What exactly makes someone one of the ""greatest financial historians alive"" ? The writer thinks that QE and federal deficits are a Ponzi scheme about to collapse. Maybe so. What he fears is that the next bubble burst will result in more poor central planning in the US, Russia, and China resulting in the death of capitalism. If bankers can’t serve the commonwealth better than they have, it’ll be no good to whine when governments decide to control them. [deleted] The theme of every op-ed or comment ever made: “Why I’m right and everyone else is wrong” Incompetent, or competent…. they really work for the billionaires. Our monetary policy has been wonderful for the very rich. RIP our futures (millennials will never have a chance). What is the reasoning for “money can’t be cheap” otherwise it’s wrong/falsely propping up the economy? Where did the rule come from/what is the real world evidence to suggest money has to be expensive in order for an economy to function legitimately? Well they literally admitted they don’t know how inflation works. The only reason they have any credibility at all is they control the global financial system. Let’s not forget the ones who just resigned for insider trading. It’s more of a hostage situation at this point. JPow sold at the top But I was told it was Biden? Paywall. Who is this, “great financial historian”? Welcome to Austrian Economics. Shut off RRP This really isn’t news. The only issue is do we want central banks who suck, or government controlled currencies that would suck with political motivations. When you print so much money that you make the money in our pockets shrink to a fraction of what it once was, we lose confidence. This cannot be hidden in gold or silver derivatives (GLD or SLV) indefinitely. Eventually, the ‘ruler’ will measure the purchasing power of where we are vs. where we were, and that delta will give people confidence or distain for the actions of the printing press from here on in the future. Something to keep in mind is the president not only selects the Fed chair but dictates the Fed's policy. It was a little more public recently with Trump threatening Powell's job on Twitter, but outside of that in recent years this type of interaction has been behind closed doors. In fact, the Fed pivoted on policy pretty hard the two times this year Biden has had a meeting with Powell. But before recent years, back in the 70s and earlier it was public and open that the Fed was blindly following and doing what the president would tell them to. It wasn't hidden then, like the opaqueness of today. Despite this we shouldn't blame the president on the economy. It's like a gear in a very large machine, but it's still a large piece of that machine. If the Fed is being incompetent, a lot of it can be accurately blamed on the current or previous presidential administration through their policies and through their controlling of the Fed. The previous because there is a delay. A lot of the inflation we have today is from the Trump administration. Not being biased against Trump, this is hard fact. Being thrown into a recession / near recession to minimize inflation started after Biden met with Powell. Then last week the recent dovishness pulling us out of a potential recession is following the second Biden meeting, probably for midterms. If central bankers are incompetent it begs the question, ""Have our presidents been incompetent?"" Duh...this was always going to bite us. The Tea Party gaslighters claimed it would lead to spontaneous economic crisis but in classic late stage capitalistic fashion (and in an homage to Roman collapse) we're clearly on a gradual descent into feudalism spurred at every step by short term greed that will eventually spell the end to the American experiment in self governance. I agree this this take and fear inflation is just getting started they've been playing a shell game with our economy since reagan and it's blowing up in their face Outside of ""required inflation of growth"" (which is not required, but it's a cited concept), inflation is just the passing on of costs to society. Definently not oil corps putting a choke point in the middle of their production chain to create scarcity in one the most essential economic staples while holdings groups by up vast amounts of land to sell at high prices and gentrifying the rest, resulting in yet more poor central planing, exacerbated by now two plagues a war and multiple embargoes weighing down the supply chain while health care becomes increasingly out of reach for many. Def not that, it’s the workers who are to blame. Time to buy Bitcoin then... Was it the continual brrrrr noise? Cuz I think that will do it- I had a cousin who went brrrrr all the time and his folks left him in the corner. We needed a historian to tell us that? No shit We don’t need a (great, holy, beloved, amazing financial historian) to tell us bankers are inept, greedy, evil pieces of shit!!! Spelled centuries wrong..... Nationalize the banks. You mean past action can have delayed consequences… such a novel concept. Lolololol Incompetent my Ass They know damn well what going on. This is news? We didn't already know this? I thought this was common knowledge at this point. 2008? Yes! Hey when you have trillions in debt, you do whatcha gotta do Obsession with inflation and supply side economics has created a dogma so deep, they are literally a pastiche of themselves…just like The Muppet Show. The wealth inequality is getting worse despite QE. There needs to be new thinking to invest and for industrial planning centrally as the market only does it will for the very few. ”Incompetent” more like greedy. Hyperbole much? The fact that his name is nowhere to be found in this thread and coupled with the fact the article, itself, doesn't bother to mention his name in the preview is really starting to make me wonder about this economic man of mystery It won't , they're already signaling that QT has peaked with the .75 rate hike, expect more.moderate hikes or even a halt. Sorry but the near zero rates since 2008 have proven time and again the US economy is based on cheap money inflated asset prices. I assume by outliving their peers. He just kinda started calling himself that and the other guys felt awkward about correcting him There’s actually an entire field dedicated to economic history. It’s a fascinating subject, the London School of Economics is among the foremost universities in pioneering the field. Given the recency of formal economics as an academic field, economic history is a relatively new subject (focus is primarily on post-Industrial Revolution so 1850 to present). ""This guy is so well known and important that you have to pay money to find out who he is"" Considering it's someone bashing the central bank and has to be referred to as ""one of the greatest"" instead of his name, he's probably some pseudointellectual. Animal charisma, mostly. Someone else described him as that, there's a link in the article that won't work for me. If they mean great as in large, ice-cream >poor central planning in the US, Russia, and China resulting in the death of capitalism Capitalism and central planning are pretty much opposites. Governments already control them? Haven’t read his book, but the article glosses over the reason why inflation remained low even with sustained low interest rates. In my view that’s due to focus on CPI. If you only measure a basket of consumer goods that is continually produced in low wage countries (notice how clothing that used to be made in China is more made in Cambodia or Bangladesh?), then you can claim inflation is under control. Ponzi schemes - even if realized - can remain solvent for a long time. People have cognizant dissonant to the facts. But eventually the facts - that the Fed printed too many damn dollars - will come home too roost. And, by then it will be too late for any realization. Save yourselves. This is not a drill. God I hope so. I mean sure lots of people will lose their homes and have ruined lives, like every financial catastrophe engineered to keep capitalism churning, but this time at least if the system ends there can be an end to suffering, and we can rebuild afterwards a system that doesn't suck shit. So, complicity—not incompetence at all. Refusal to drain the balance sheet? Are we forgetting that the Fed tried to drain the balance sheet but had an elected leader throw a tantrum on Twitter and threaten to fire the Fed chair in 2018/2019? Then we got a pandemic shortly after where they had no choice because the entire global economy ground to a halt, and now currently they're *checks notes*...currently draining the balance sheet. It’s a feedback loop. If we stop working and paying into social security then our lack of a future feeds back into the generation before us and so on. We can fuck them back, we just have to do it now before they’re dead. Tell them to live in the present When money is too cheap, it’s used foolishly. Nobody knows, people are reactionary. Because the population has doubled and we can't pull enough resources out of the ground to keep up Karen. Im not an expert but as far as Ive been able to gather its not that they dont know how inflation works its that in order to tackle inflation you need the fed and the congress working together, but our congress is gridlocked in partisan bullshit due to the gop. The fed can really only raise and lower the interest rate and buy and sell bonds. That only gives them a limited amount of tools to use. Its easy to say now with 20/20 hindsight but it was congress who passed the multiple trillion dollar pandemic packages that put like 70% of all dollars ever created into the system in 2 years. So that part was congress. The fed part was keeping the interest rate at near 0 for a decade all while the us economy was “in the largest boom in history”. The money mostly went to the top in huge part because wealthy ppl could take advantage of the cheap money being thrown around. Interest rates were lower than inflation so rich ppl were being paid to take out huge sums of money. On top of that when “the economy is booming” thats the time we should be paying down the defecit, but instead trump cut taxes and increased govt spending. This means all during a “boom” we added trillions to the national debt instead of paying it down. If we dont pay it down in boom times when the hell do we expect to pay it down, in a recession lol? We also funnelled most of the remaining middle class money towards the top, artificially blew up stock market/crypto/art/..etc with cheap money, and to top it off absolutely blew the roof off the real estate market. So basically interest rates were low as hell, this blew up the debt, trump cut taxes and increased spending, this blew up the debt twice as fast, rich ppl pounded this cheap money into all assets making them hit all time highs, then congress dumped 70+% of all dollars ever created into the economy which all trickled up to the rich again and hit even higher all time highs, and at the end of all that a global pandemic hits, russia starts a war in ukraine, and the worlds factory china has a 0 covid policy which has all completely fucked up supply chains right as shit was already hitting the fan. We always need to remember the insider trading of the Fed chairs (including JPow) who sold near the top, as well as of our congressional 'political heroes' and their family members. More like they don’t want to admit how inflation works since we know most of the inflation is from old-fashioned profiteering due to lack of competition. I came here to say this but you did an excellent job. The fed is already highly politicized and leans hard left His name is Edward Chancellor. It’s at the top of the third paragraph. Hit the “aA” button at the top-right of the app and you can read the whole thing. It's impossible. Someone would have to read the article I'm all for new approaches to central banking and monetary policy but everytime I hear some sooth-sayer offer up their 2 cents on why the Fed is getting it so wrong I tend to tune them out. It's always the same laundry list of banalities about deficit spending but never real policy alternatives. If these click-baity hawks are the only alternative then I will glady stand by Jpoww and Fed. They are obviously not going to get things 100% right but they are better than the doofuses that write articles like this one. Austin powers: international man of finance You and everyone who upvoted you didn’t even bother to read the article. It literally says the name. In that case, how will inflation come under control? If fed won't curb inflation, won't we hit some other type of economic issues? Rate hikes are not qt. I thought qt and qe had to do with balance sheet increases or decreases QT is actually going to double to 95b/month in September. I find this hard to believe, and as Fed’s Kashkari (one of the most dovish members) told NYT today, it is honestly surprising that investors expect Fed to pivot to QE anytime soon. How’s this take doing? Technically there is always a “greatest financial historian alive” at all times. Then he’s not a historian, he’s a witness. ![gif](giphy|26ufdipQqU2lhNA4g) Ok that's the easy part.... Now , how do you define the greatest person in that field...? There is another group that studies economics history pre 1850. Just because economics wasn’t a thing doesn’t mean people didn’t care about money. Bingo. He's a journalist who sells a book about the imminent collapse of the economy every couple years. Right, but *central* banks are *very much* in the business of centralized planning. The author’s point is that, once the higher interest rates clear up this inflation problem, *if* the central banks revert to their prior plan of maintaining a historically low-rate enviroment, the economy as a whole will see a continuation of “the everything bubble” whereby asset prices inflate wildly, but nobody calls it inflation, and there’s no urgency to stop it—creating a catastrophic bubble that (in his view) would destroy the economy (and economic system) as a whole, when it pops. There are different flavors of capitalism. Right now, we are experiencing crony capitalism. You are mixing up the free market with capitalism. The goal of capitalists has always been to obtain a monopoly and thereby effectively central planning. Almost all CEO's are talking about dominating the market they are in and investors are constantly looking for companies with monopolies or ""moats"". Sweet Central state planning is a crucial aspect of capitalism. It helps the capitalists to maintain their hold on their wealth. Acting as though central planning and capitalism can be separate anywhere outside of the “theory” of people like Friedman, Rothbard, and so on is just outright ridiculous. In reality, the two are indelibly intertwined. Always have been, always will be. Cognitive dissonance * Sorry but it's impossible to have a fiat currency like the USD be a ponzi scheme, since the government has the right to print as much as necessary, Ponzi schemes run up against some limit dealing with people, fiat currencies do not. You don’t want to replace a system after it collapses, you want to replace it gradually as it exists. Collapse is bad. The thing that comes after collapse is usually an extended period of terribleness. The Russian czardom collapsed very quickly in 1917. It was rapidly replaced by the communist party and soviet union, which notoriously enacted several genocides and massacres, including pogroms and forced famines. They then went ahead and held the world at a tense nuclear knifepoint for the duration of the cold war. The Roman Empire collapsed relatively slowly, and that vacuum in Western Europe left people in conditions of famine, war, and chaos for hundreds of years. Collapses leave power vacuums. And the people who seize power in these vacuums rarely (if *ever*) have other peoples’ best interests in mind. You have your eyes set on a utopian future where the worst of capitalism is regulated away and the best aspects of society shine through. The reality is that a collapse like this will lead to all but a very privileged few going through the absolute worst life has to offer. >at least if the system ends there can be an end to suffering This is hilarious. >God I hope so. I mean sure lots of people will lose their homes and have ruined lives, like every financial catastrophe engineered to keep capitalism churning, but this time at least if the system ends there can be an end to suffering, and we can rebuild afterwards a system that doesn't suck shit. This is basically what the Khmer Rouge thought and said, as they dismantled urban civilization in favour of an agrarian paradise in Cambodia. They killed one third of Cambodians in the process, and lowered the overall life expectancy to under 30 years of age. You don't understand this history and society stuff. When you don't understand something, stop having opinions about it. This will likely lead to the rise of desperate people flocking to dictators and strongmen that can promise them purpose and a future. Look at what happened to Germany after World War One. Good lord you are an historically illiterate moron [deleted] Reject modernity, return to peasant sustenance farming. I like this. And the evidence that this is dangerously propping up the economy is coming from what exactly? Going to just slide past the ridiculous name calling… What does that have to do with cheap money being accessible from central banks? Exactly. Everyone wants to blame the Fed when Congress has basically done non-stop expansionary fiscal policy for the wealthy since at least 2008. The Fed is just full of Econ PhDs who've dedicated their life to the field of economics. They obviously have no clue what they're doing, unlike the average Redditor. This is actually an incredible synopsis. Well done. >Im not an expert but as far as Ive been able to gather its not that they dont know how inflation works its that in order to tackle inflation you need the fed and the congress working together, They actually did come out and say this is all uncharted, they weren't sure what was happening or why inflation was behaving as it was. What you are talking about is important -- unfunded spending by the legislature that the Fed is stuck dealing with. It's a real and serious issue -- from the Trump tax cuts to th Biden corporate giveaways -- but its separate from what you were responding to. >but our congress is gridlocked in partisan bullshit due to the gop. Well, yeah you are giving an example of partisan BS with your own words -- ""go along with what we say or you are the problem"" but you don't seem to realize the irony. Republicans are a party with separate values and goals, and yes one of those goals is keeping the other side from looking good, but if you actually want to accomplish things you take that into account and *moderate* your own goals. What you are seeing is both sides saying ""I get everything I want or nobody gets anything."" A good example is Build Back Better. The Fed was understandably stressed about it, because it was 5+ trillion in unfunded spending. Republicans weren't on board for that, and neither ~~ete`~ were two Democratic senators due to fears of inflation. Manchin said he'd be willing to look at $1.5-1.75T, but not what was asked. Democrats demonized him and did everything they could to apply pressure instead of moderating their goals. They weren't able to moderate within the Democratic party -- everyone had to get everything or nobody got anything. In the end, they did pass something around $1.5T that was almost entire corporate subsidies and giveaways to campaign donors like Comcast and Verizon. It didn't include any of the long term infrastructure promised, but it did help fuel inflation and corporate balance sheets. Same in Canada with the Trudeau government. I agree with all that you said.[ I'd like to add the breakdown of inflation over the last 20 years to the conversation.](https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/chart-of-the-day-or-century-5/) >Ive been able to gather its not that they dont know how inflation works its that in order to tackle inflation you need the fed and the congress working together Most inflation in the last 20 years has been driven by wage increases in: 1. Medical Services 2. Higher Education 3. Housing 4. Administrative/Bureaucratic/Legal All of these industries have *heavy* government involvement, lobbying and regulation (think occupational licensing & zoning). And frankly, it's not obvious Americans are any healthier or smarter... Most inflation, IMO, has been driven by the government and is largely zero-sum (not value creating, but redistribution). And most economists work for the government or want to work for the government or higher education because that's where those jobs are. They have a good idea how it works, but it's bad for their careers to say so. My two cents, take it for what you will. The outcome of this all sounds horrifically terrifying. Hopefully I sleep tonight haha! I thought the entire time that it was economic sabotage. If funneling most of the remaining middle class money toward the top is a great problem, which I believe it is both as a fairness issue and as a tremendous impediment to future growth, entrepreneurship, and productivity, what types of policies and long term strategies can address this problem? Other than a wealth tax which would probably be very inefficient as well as being politically untenable, inflation with real wage growth seems like a vital component of any long term trend that shifts wealth from the top toward the middle class, and from boomers toward zoomers. The beginning of inflation first inspired by depressed supply then misconfigured supply chains was not accompanied by wage growth and the vast majority of pandemic subsidies were funneled away from workers toward business owners, so the usual subjects were able to state that inflation was hurting the poor. However, the latest personal income data does now show wages and income growing faster than inflation. Compare that to the value of capital and wealth accumulated in the past. If you own a bunch of debt, borrowers aren't increasing the principal they owe you to keep up with inflation, and the interest rates you got borrowers to agree to over two years ago aren't increasing to keep up with inflation, so you are effectively losing your buying power. Or, if you own a bunch of equity in companies you might be happy to see the shares denominated in current dollars rise as dollars become less valuable, but the share prices will need to grow faster than inflation for you to keep up, and then when you sell you won't be able to escape the fact that capital gains taxes are calculated on the nominal increase in share prices between when you bought and when you sold your stock. Another tool the Fed has in addition to raising/lowering the Fed funds rate and conducting open market operations (buying/selling bonds) is setting minimum capital buffers for nationally regulated banks. For example, the most recent bank stress tests occurred. The Fed then set higher minimum capital requirements for all or most of the banks. This makes it so the banks need to build up their capital buffer. They do this by lending less money and paying less in dividends and share repurchases so that the interest payments on their loans build up for a couple months so they will be more resilient in more adverse economic conditions. Also, the number is more like 40% of all dollars created was in the pandemic stimulus packages, not 70%. Still a huge number though. Elaborate? I’d say left. There is a lot more space out there, farther on the left. He is a historian and journalist. Not an economist looks like. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Chancellor Thanks, I had no idea about the aA button… most useful thing I’ve learned in a while Great tip, thanks The whatnow >in the preview I don't have a fortune subscription. It wasn't in the preview So much of inflation right now is just high gas and oil prices combined with a crazy real estate market. I often wonder if rate increases are really the best tool for those. Maybe we change zoning laws and increase renewable energy as a more direct approach. I mean congress could stop with the partisan antics and address the supply side issues. The Fed's just working with a few levers and switches (that all affect the demand side) not an entire branch of government. Yeah I have a PhD Pretty Huge Doubt the fed will get inflation to the target of 2% The Fed alone can't do it. It will require profound structural changes on how the government operates and finances itself. Those changes are not politically possible. My outlook is that we will see at least some level of Argentinization of the economy. Let's see.. a lot of these projections aren't always what they seem Heres how I expect it to happen... Nothing much happens in the summer, probably through September... Then around the early fall, the recession numbers and job loss fears will be exacerbated by the politicians running in the midterms. A couple of bad indicators will come out, or maybe more geopolitical crisis happen. Now November rolls around you have the midterms the GOP comes into power and begins pressuring the Fed and Biden to do something for the economy... Slowly the Fed begins saying inflation has peaked , is under control and labor is returning to normal, so they are pulling back on their intended hikes and maybe even increasing thie purchases of MBs to shore the housing g market. Anyway we won't have to wait long to see which of these it is, QT or QE. Even better Central planning does not mean what you think it means. Central planning had to do with the allocation and management of resources. The Fed isn't setting prices for goods and services, or deciding manufacturing inputs and outputs. The Fed's only job is monetary policy. They don't have the power to centrally plan the economy. Thing is, if that policy continues we will be closer to revolution. Wealth distribution is at it's worst place ever, jobs are getting automated, small businesses are no longer viable and global corporations don't pay taxes. If they repeat the scheme where they flood market with money people are going to be homeless or rental will be so high it will consume most of the average salary, in other words living conditions will deter. Btw. High Interest rates do not clear high inflation. Interest rates make people poor, and thats what clears the inflation... Currently we have shift in demographic and low unemployment so those who can't oftenly change the job for better salary and have mortgages or other financial liabilities, gonna be done. > Right now, we are experiencing crony capitalism. When was anyone *not*? Look for companies with established fiefdoms lol The value has some limit. The reason it's so strong now is that the fed is hiking ahead of everyone else and has a relatively high interest rate Vs everyone else. Therefore a higher yield. When rate hike expectations peak out, the USD should weaken, as demand for it weakens. By guess is JPY since EUR remains fucked - after Russia-Ukraine, it has to deal with the EU not getting ripped up. 50-50 I would say And there is no real value behind ponzi schemes (just more suckers) while behind the USD is the work people do. So if I trust in USD, I'm trusting the workforce of the US. Same in Euro. I wouldn't trust the yuan, though. >which notoriously enacted several genocides and massacres, including pogroms and forced famines. Maybe I've never seen the word porgrom in print, but thank you for introducing me to a new word. [Today, I'm one of the 10,000!](https://xkcd.com/1053/). Note: I knew about the famines and genocides, I just didn't know the word. If you can't imagine a world where people don't need to lose everything every decade like clockwork that's on you. I can dream, and I'm going to dream because I'm tired of idly waiting for corrupt old men to rule my fate and the fate of everyone I know and love and care about. I'm not even advocating for some fringe ideology, it's a choose your own adventure novel. I'm sure most alternatives to the neoliberal status quo are good ones, try to avoid outright totalitarian dictatorships. There's a middle ground between absolutely no change happening ever and full psycho revolution where we put all the worst people we can find into power to own the libs that dictators and mass murderers refuse to see. We need to choose this moderate path of revolution now before we all fucking die in the climate catastrophe. The thing about a war against the climate we live in is that it's a total war. If we lose and cannot adapt ourselves to prevent climate catastrophe, we are all dead. This is something capitalism must not understand. There is no money to be made in this idea, and this is why you don't see corporations going to war. It's prohibitively expensive. They only exploit places that let the exploitation go on without resistance. You can't tell me that going along with the current cabal of rapists in charge of my country is the way forward. I'd have to surrender who I am, what I care about if I were to go along voting Democrat or Republican. There is no greater good in sheepishly going along with the status quo just because it's more polite. Let's do some pattern recognition since you think I can't learn from the lessons of history. What leads to massive famines? Agrarian reform. Stop doing that shit, the food supply chain is fine and you can put it under new management fine. There are ways to simply ignore the parts of ideology that get people killed. It's possible. Society is so fucking massive that there is no way it is not possible. So many billions of people, so many hundreds of millions of educated people and nobody can reason their way around issues of politics. We just have to learn the obvious lessons, try and minimize suffering, and have some fucking humanity in our leadership. If the alternative is nothing but ruin, I'll fucking take it. So does not changing anything. The Weimar republic would've been a fine system of government if it weren't hopelessly corrupt and useless for improving the lives of its people. I'm not historically illiterate, I'm impulsive and prone to coming up with poor ideas in the space of five minutes. Just because I'm unable to immediately scan the entire breadth of everything I know or don't know doesn't mean that knowledge doesn't exist. Maybe there's a reason this sort of shit keeps happening, and maybe the people in power are actually just stupid like me instead of actively criminal. It doesn't really matter, what I think does matter is that it's easy to get jaded, it's harder and better to actually be jaded without accepting that the world is a shitty place. I know that it's a shitty place but I'll never accept it. Slow recovery from the GFC and being unable to get to 2% inflation weren't good reasons? I'm not following >They obviously have no clue what they're doing, unlike the average Redditor. I read an Econ 101 book a long time ago that says monetary policy should be working with fiscal policy. The Fed should have been wary of what the fiscal policy is doing and act in response. Even a freshman in economics would know better than the Fed. Since 2008? Try 1968 Yeah honestly the best short and sweet of it I’ve ever read. Bravo. A couple questions/comments. What are the “Biden corporate giveaways”? Link? Build Back Better was not unfunded. It actually was completely paid for. Would it have been inflationary? Likely. Would it have increased the deficit? No. I’ve just always heard that the Fed isn’t as independent of political pressure as it claims to be. There was a Princeton study on it I believe was titled, “The Myth of Independence” Below is info on second part of my comment. I should have said “Leans hard Democrat” instead of left. https://www.independent.org/publications/article.asp?id=14021 I’d say center. Just because the right went full nut job doesn’t mean the center needs to move to accommodate it. Additionally our “left” in this country is what many European countries would consider to be right. (Or at least when compared to their regular right parties and not the rise of the crazies). Fed Reserve Board Democrat to Republican ratio is 48 to 1. That is hard left IMO. He also seems to predict the downfall of the economy every couple of years at the same time he sells a book. I’m not sure what the exact message of his 2020 book “Wall Street is Firmly in Wonderland”, but that was not the time to get out of the market… So you’re saying his guesses are just as good as any economists. Or for that matter, anyone with a magic eight ball. that's probably why they don't refer to him as one in the article. Paying it forward then. I was you not long ago. You just said “the article itself doesnt mention his name” insinuating you read it lol Excellent point, the fed has very limited influence than people actually think. They done make economic policies, the house does. The fed has probably used all the available tools they had to help the money behavior. Really? I don't have a doubt in my mind. As soon as the recession hits we'll see massive deflation. Haha, please don’t wish that on us. Argentinization? No way, the dollar won’t depreciate like that ever I understand that capitalism doesn’t have a centrally-planned economy. I’m merely explaining why the author believes this will lead to poor central planning internationally: because (call it what you want, and believe it or not) the Fed is a *centralized* power, involved in making, setting, and executing on *plans*. Thus, the author believes the failure of our capitalist economy will lead to an invigorated reaction from the more centrally-planned economies—because, hypothetically, and in the author’s view, these other states will believe that *more* planning will lead to better outcomes. Its not as centralized as say the soviet system, but the fed 100% knows where the cash they print is gonna end up, its gonna end up in financial companies cause bank deem that to be the lowest risk since they already have a huge amount of capital. Finance companies are gonna then go inflate the ever loving fuck out of various assets like stocks, and real estate. So in a sense the fed IS centrally planning to set the prices of real estate, private equity, and stocks higher. They just arent picking exactly what stocks or houses, but theres so much fucking money that you can just say “all of it” They actually are price setting, it's just more indirect than the classic soviet style rationing. They control the price and supply of currency, which creates ripple effects in every other area of the economy - price distortions and misallocation of resources. >The Fed isn't setting prices for goods and services The entire concept of monetary policy and central banking is manipulating these prices indirectly. So then it is govt’s job to make sure corporations don’t inflate prices on goods thru price gouging. Oh look we are right back to what those on the left have been saying for decades. Interesting how that works right. So windfall tax and shift the burden of IRS revenue on corporations and the rich rather than the poor and middle class Wealth distribution has been at it's worst place ever for like 2 decades. The only new issue here is automation, and it's not even all that new. Like none of what you said is going to cause a revolution. Americans have it in them about as much as a mouse would, if they were going to be the change they want they'd already be it. Fact is ENOUGH people are living comfortably enough to pretend they aren't being effected, and as long as that balance remains nothing will happen. We'll just keep letting the wealthy and the powerful pick pockets until nothing is left and then when it all goes to shit the right will inevitably blame the left and the people with the money will dip out hat in hand while we argue about it. After the New Deal? Lol. I know right? It’s hilarious when people are so fucking näive that they genuinely think capitalism can exist without a central monopoly of violent force to maintain its established structures of power. That’s you. You’re näive. Russia is a wildcard since I'm not exactly sure if Putin and his admin will try to go out with a bang. While that is true, it doesn't protect against the Fed printing money *without any work* */ productivity growth* to accompany the money printing. Pre-existing savings get inflated away by this. Pogrom is more specifically used to refer to attacks against Jewish communities. It can be applies to riots against other races or religious groups, but 99% of the time it’s used in reference to a riot against Jews. Sorry, this edition of 10,000 is a bit depressing. So much hope. So little understanding. Yes, let's try to avoid outright totalitarian dictatorships while we implement a dream world. That's what will happen when society collapses. I envy your optimism. If current institutions and systems fall, I'm betting that what replaces it will be far worse, even more unfair, with vastly more poverty and suffering. It will happen eventually, but hopefully not in my lifetime. This is just angst and resentment, but I will tell you one thing, because of your statement here: ""We need to choose this moderate path of revolution now before we all fucking die in the climate catastrophe"". If you are that worried about climate change, you obviously need to support Democrats. Not an endorsement of either party, I'm just pointing out the obvious here. The rest is just fluff. The Weimar Republic was fine for the people after the inflation crisis and even prosperous for a min in the 20s. There's a reason the Nazis got spanked in the 1924 and 1928 elections. It's not the Weimar Republic's fault as a system that the Great Depression happened afterwards around the world and the Nazis were able to capitalize on it. [deleted] An additional issue to consider is *why.* The Federal Reserve doesn't consider the why in its policy, and that's a terrible mistake because what's happening now is just easy money to cover up all the economic woes/inefficiency. Same with the EU. What you dont seem to understand is that the Fed is made out of hundreds of doctorates of economics. They have been dealing with congress, a purely political entity, making politically beneficial and economically terrible decisions for a few years now. What’s worse, Congress is gridlocked so now there will be no action to fix their mistakes. Please don’t confuse simple people by comparing the US to the rest of humanity. /s >democrat >hard left Hilarious This is the financial journalist playbook for ya. Must have some kind of work getting ready to go out and wants to make the rounds on the decent sites. He wasn’t wrong though. You got it u/simyjoe !! Lol Magic 8 ball series A. Will probably outperform too Sure but the whole article is an attempt at appeal to authority. I believe that journalists and historians should point to the past and remain humble. But this whole thing smells like a denouncing of everything. Maybe you find that helpful but I think it’s useless. I mean the next three words are *in the preview* Inflation is sticky Ok, you seem to just be having a crisis of two entirely different concepts using the same word. They aren't related. Stop trying to make them sound related. This comment makes sense, central planning is synonymous with the police and the gulags Actually, they are greasing the economy. Unfortunately without oversight the economy runs hot and they can't easily withdraw the money again, like today... However in 2008 it worked pretty well and tarp came out with a plus, AFAIK Man I can't imagine it not being in our lifetimes. My best hope is that the hunter gatherer clan I'm a part of is led by a tribal leader who's an okay dude and or chick as I mald and cope about losing everything despite having lived in a hyperutopia where just about anything was possible just because the people in charge sucked at their jobs. Refrigeration and air conditioning are both only possible because of 'the system' and I quite enjoy not having to pay 40 cocoa beans for a leaf cone of snow. I want to make it clear, I don't hate the whole system, only the parts of it that actively obstruct the system from being even better. I mean, slavery is gone pretty much, we've irrigated all the deserts and made livable all the inhospitable places, we have all the comforts we could ever want and the only thing that sucks is everything and we're all going to die. It's bronze age collapse 2.0 man, and this time the proud imperial forces slinking off in the hills to watch their culture die will be wielding AR15s and wondering where it all went wrong as they stand nightwatch protecting against raids from enemy tribes. Maybe I'm worried about nothing and everything really will be better somehow when nobody remembers how to read. I mean more stupid and maliciously stupid but more genuine? Probably not. Tribal nations get a lot of slack for having been the subject of a few genocides than they should. Tribal politics are not good politics. The Democrats aren't doing anything about climate change Yes, and maybe you're right that the Weimar Republic couldn't have avoided the great depression. This is not the case for the US, and maybe the depression wouldn't have happened if there had been some regulations in the financial sector, or any of whatever creative solution you'd care to apply to the issue. And it wasn't as though there weren't warnings of what a large scale economic depression would look like as there had been several in US history before the great depression. It's a matter of willful ignorance, that's how I see it, and how I can't help but see it. The system thrives on there being exploitable holes in the system for people to grow rich by while the seeds are planted for yet another recession. Now ask yourself, is there a way these events could have turned out differently? Maybe maybe not, but I don't see any attempts being made at all to improve the system and shore it up against this sort of thing. Fair enough. I personally think that's easier to say in hindsight but agree to disagree. My bad lol Predicted 10 of the last 2 recessions like they all do Depends on what the message of the book was. If he said, shit’s nutty but time in the market beats timin the market, he’s be correct. If he said, Wall Street has lost their marbles so sell, sell, sell. You would’ve been screwed by not being in the market the last two years. Predict rain every day and you are bound to be right He is correct when he states that Central Bank policies “facilitated speculative trading, instead of a focus on real economic growth.” But he was. And he still his. He is claiming that central banks are what caused inflation despite that being an absurd claim. not rlly, they're reporting on one man's opinion. if you don't like the article fine, but don't insist is doing things it is not. Central planning is synonymous with a central authority, yes. I don’t know why that’s something that’s controversial in your mind. Every example of central planning in every economic system has entailed the existence of a central authority to carry out and enforce the planning. The central authority of the United States is very clearly the collection of the wealthiest, most powerful individuals in the nation, who own the lion’s share of the assets and yield all of the apparatuses of the state at their disposal as if holding the leash of a beastly mutt. All of the richest conglomerate shareholders, venture capitalists, real estate moguls, oil tycoons, pharmaceutical executives, bank heads, weapons manufacturers, and so on and so forth concertedly work and conspire together in favor of their own interests and in opposition to the interests of the masses of people working for and under them. They decide how to distribute all of the wealth generated from the productive labor of the workforce. That’s why the inequality that exists in the United States is greater than the inequality which existed in France preceding the French Revolution. The wealthy decide what each significant venture does, how it functions, when it operates, and so on and so forth. They have the greatest effect on policy outcomes due to their enormous and influential fiscal power. The single most reliable factor to look at to preemptively determine the winner of an American election is funding. That is how it works in any capitalist system. You’re lying to yourself if you believe otherwise. What the fuck did I just read? Society as we know it isn't going to collapse because of this inflation crisis lol [deleted] You are so right!! Always had different pools of money for short term, medium term and long term with long term being the biggest pool. The more you dig into the people that know the more you realize they are not going to help you make money. Lived through the dot com crash, 2007 doomsday and the Covid meltdown. Biggest lesson is to diversify and diversify even within your expectations. So holding interest rates at near zero for over a decade has nothing to do with it. Okay I think I understand now. Reporting one man’s opinion usually happens when they want to parrot some line but have to report it instead!! Why does he not just write a opinion piece? Tfw ""we haven't tried real communism, that's not real communism"" manifests into ""we actually haven't tried real capitalism"" It's not going to collapse because of the inflation crisis it's going to collapse because the entire crux of all the development human society has made is based on polluting the planet until it's no longer habitable. Yup. Same with the early and mid 2021. Housing prices and stock market were surging YoY and at Sept 2021, Powell still insist low rates till 2024, and talks about maybe tapering the balance sheet. Uh..... yes...... because he is likely not employed by one of the major outlets that he wants and because he can get a reporter to report his opinion instead. why are you acting like this is wierd? Dude 😂 I’m literally describing “real capitalism” to you. Never said we haven’t tried it. We’re in it right now. It’s terrible. It’s a system that is fundamentally based on separating the poor working majority from the fruits of their labor and redistributing those fruits up the fiscal ladder to the wealthy minority through any number of the various ploys and schemes that the capitalists that make up that demographic employ, including price gouging, wage theft, market manipulation, lobbying, donating to politicians, and so on and so forth. [deleted] Go on…. > Wealthy people and REIT’s and other funds had infinite ability to get loans backed by assets that have only gone up the last 14 years. Read: The Fed has institutionalized rent-seeking. ........? Is this really your idea of ""conversation""? Making an absurd claim indignantly, being told ""no"", and then demanding more? Bye, felicia. How is it absurd though? It’s basic monetary theory. Nope. Bye. Hahahaha, and you think I’M the one who doesn’t know how to make conversation. You either can’t back up what you’re saying, or you’re lazy. Have fun attacking people on the internet and then running away. On comments made almost a month ago no less." "YouTuber at Center of GameStop Surge Is Hit With Class Action Suit - The suit alleges Keith Gill “took on the fake persona of an amateur, everyday fellow, who simply was looking out for the little guy” in order to recruit investors.",2727,https://www.thedailybeast.com/reddit-user-deepf-kingvalue-known-on-youtube-as-roaring-kitty-hit-with-gamestop-class-action-lawsuit,"So the plaintiff is somebody who was shorting game stock shares and they had publicly announced they were shorting the stock in order to make the stocks price go down. But they’re upset that when they advertised that they were going to do that, someone instead said hey let’s buy all the stock and hold onto it so they have to pay us lots of money for the stock when they are forced to make up the short. I am confused how the plaintive can’t be seen as trying to manipulate the market? His [remarks](https://docs.house.gov/meetings/BA/BA00/20210218/111207/HHRG-117-BA00-Wstate-GillK-20210218.pdf) to Congress Absolute B.S. [https://www.hbsslaw.com/investor-fraud/gme](https://www.hbsslaw.com/investor-fraud/gme) *Hagens Berman's complaint site. Hmmmmmm If only there was a way to reach out to them and express our concerns.* The biggest problem he could face is that he worked at a brokerage firm and when u have a job in a finance related field its normal to not be legally allowed to talk stocks or sometimes even to trade them. Just reading the suit it comes off as petty ex language more than a legal document. Holy shit. So they’re going to bury him in legal fees, endless continuances, and basically make his life an endless legal hell for daring to make money in the market? It doesn’t matter how frivolous the suit is, guys with way less than billions of dollars can make your life a legal shit show pretty much forever. And I’m guessing they want to make an example out of him. Honestly, he should transfer all his earnings to a secret account in the Grand Caymans and nope out. Go buy a villa on some Caribbean island, live a good happy life, and enjoy his rightfully earned money. I lost brain cells trying to read their argument Him being an amateur or financial advisor previously shouldn’t matter. Keith legally traded stocks he was legally allowed to trade. End. Jim Cramer has been doing it 5 nights a week for 20 fucking years! Motley Fool can run PAID ads promoting stocks, but RoaringKitty can’t post on a free public forum and give stock advice... this is the FREE COUNTRY they want us to believe we live in... What if someone did that and created a free mobile brokerage. It’d be CHAOS!!! So during 2008 financial crisis multiple firms and hundreds of financial investors, managers and others collectively defrauded thousands of people buy selling them crony financial securities and approving people who had no business getting loans with their current Incomes but a Man who did Due Diligence on Gamestop and saw a large short against the stock and made a videos about it and pointing out an opportunity to make money off driving up the price of the stock is going to be highly scrutinized and possibly end up in Jail? America has it's priorities completely fucked. I mean he was an amateur. It’s not like he was any sort of institutional investor, he was just a financial advisor with a YouTube channel and Reddit account. This entire thing is so fucking hilarious because of how transparent it all is. Even IF DFV was using WSB to create a surge in GME stock, how would that be any different from what the hedge funds do? I don’t believe he actually did what the law suit is claiming and I don’t think the people filing it believe that either. They’re just trying to make an example out of him and fuck up his gains at the same time. Yup,undercover for over a year while managing to lose >$20MM in unrealized gains just to keep up the optics. Definitely a master criminal who was running a scam (never mind the actual HF who ran the pump and dump on them) /s When he first posted his position people laughed at him. He wasn’t trying to win anyone over. He’s a smart guy who did good research and made a strategic play. It ended up paying off. Why is it when regular people profit (by following the rules of the game) — its criminal. Meanwhile big money and rich folks can break the law without consequence? America is unjust. Thankfully Mr. Gill has the money to defend himself now... but he shouldn’t have to. He’s done nothing wrong Looking to take his earnings and make an example of him. Probably also trying to get him to close his positions in order to fund his legal bill. :) THE COURT: UNO's fault????? **UNO.** I love this guy... Blah blah Lawyers are like “let’s get paid!” Is it just me or is the writer being shady? The article states that he bought the stocks in September in 2019 and January saw the profit. It doesn’t clarify that he sold the stocks in 2021. He held these stocks for more than a year, not 4 months. Author’s trying to make it seem like he started a scheme and capitalized on it in just 5 months. This article is just like the charges against u/deepfuckingvalue, complete bullshit. The guy had 20 viewers on twitch before GME started to sginificantly rise. Whoever is suing is a moron and deserves the losses and another one in court. I am not surprised, I actually predicted this would happen a few weeks ago. It is too difficult for people to damage their ego and accept that they were idiots. When people are stuck with losses they look to blame someone else and sue. When I looked at his post history a lot of it was during business hours while he was being paid as a CFA. If he was using company laptop\networks it is even worse. At the very least that will harm the reputation of his employer and expose him to lawsuits. How do they define, much less certify, a putative class who was supposedly “injured” by anything DFV did or didn’t do. Is it WSB subs compared to GME investor list from transfer agent? How do you establish that these people actually relied on anything DFV did or didn’t do, and to what degree? How do you identify the people who did on a class basis without conducting “mini-trials” to establish class membership, much less reliance? Not possible. If the class is defined as GME investors altogether, then even more blatant problems present themselves to certify a class. Further, he is facing a catch-22 suddenly. He would be worse off in my view had he actually disclosed that he was a CFA/FINRA subject, because that might actually create ambiguity re. the capacity in which he was posting. There is no ambiguity, however, because he was an anonymous Reddit user who simply posted his positions and provided YT videos with analysis about why he liked his positions. As far as I know, nobody ever knew or understood that he was a CFA/FINRA subject, or otherwise acting in any capacity other than as an individual who was distinct and separate from any broker-dealer. He wasn’t receiving commissions. He was sharing knowledge and analytical education in good faith. No pumping. No dumping. This Class Action is trying to lever the fact that he went out of his way to avoid ambiguity and reliance in this respect, by alleging that he purposefully took on a lay-person persona on WSB and YT. What a joke. Obviously, anyone who actually followed WSB and the progress of DFV’s YOLO Updates (which were DOWN significantly at various times) knows full well that he acted in good faith, and was not manipulating (or trying to manipulate) any person or the underlying SP of GME. The market created conditions that were objectively true (heavy weighted short interest, and solid assets, entrenched brand in growing industry, and legitimate growth prospects if well executed, etc.) I hope this case is dismissed immediately for failure to I sure hope this case is dismissed quickly for failure to state a claim. DFV’s lawyers need to be careful in their motion to dismiss, however, to make clear that the facts as alleged are being taken as true for purposes of the motion only, and without taking an actual position as to the facts because of the catch-22 noted above. I feel for him. I’m a lawyer, and garbage lawsuits like this piss me off, and give my profession a bad name. Lol fuck the SEC, and anyother govt agency who's sole purpouse is, to fuck the american consumers. I don’t think he did anything wrong. But let’s not act like WSB isn’t one giant pump and dump. If you sell naked calls, you're gonna have a bad time. Stupid fucks got everything they deserve. I hope they get bankrupted by the legal costs. This is sad. Some bag holder trying to recoup losses here. HE LIKES THE STOCK! Soooo this guy is getting sued by the biggest criminals on the planet???? Thats funny. Lmfao, so the guy who’s filing the suit actually lost money by selling call options when the stock was going up. What a fucking joke Can we class action hedge funds? Jim Cramer? In other words, ""You're not allowed to get together with your friends and share trade ideas."" Uh...okay. This is what they try to do to someone who outsmarts them at their own game. Fucking terrible bullshit - they’re trying to take this guy down and make him out to be someone he’s not. Unbelievable manipulation and misrepresentation of the facts - everyone take note of what’s about to happen to this guy and what the truth is really. We all saw it unfold, to call DFV’s actions manipulation is to disregard the truth. This post needs to be taken down for misinformation and spiting rhetoric that simply isn’t true. Sooo any news on that class action lawsuit against Robinhood? What about the SEC investigation into Citadel and Melvin Capital? Just gonna make a short news cycle out of some random dude on Reddit? Oh okay.... Such bullshit. The hedges lost a bet. Simple as that. This is such BS. He liked the stock, I liked the stock. I didn’t have the guts or funds to lose $200k but I did lose $2k which to me is a lot. But I’m not whining like a little bitch and trying to ruin the life of an individual because in the end what made us lose money was the hedge funds naked shorting the stock. Isn’t that what politicians do? Suggest they understand the plight of everyday people from atop their pile of gold coins? Trying to make an example of Joe Somebody, to ensure the Ivy League twits can keep the big game private. thanks for sharing Hoping for the best for DFV. He deserves every penny he made from Gamestop stocks. He merely flipped the tables and beat them at their own game, using their tactics. This will bite them in the ass by exposing those tactics. Horseshit. He liked the stock I couldn't wish worse upon whoever filed this. L. This is just ridiculous. DFV has been bullish on GME for over a year and even has videos hours long explaining why he likes the stock. I wish we would had force me to buy earlier lol Damn, they’re really trying to screw this guy as much as possible They are trying to get a big settlement out of Mass Mutual. Don't know how there can be this many comments and nobody gets that. Fuck rich people Well I think we must help them with #We\_like\_Keith\_Gill\_as\_we\_like\_the\_stocks The information he presented on YouTube and Reddit is common knowledge. But sadly most of us apes didn't know where to find it or what it meant. All they did was shine a spot light where others had not. Plus we just like the stock So Ackman literally in a documentary about Herbalife going to zero and telling everyone to short is OK? While he has a massive short position? Ya ok there Elon Musk says he’s an engineer.....who do I call? LMFAO wow, pot meet kettle This dude should have kept it to himself, collected his cash when all the Reddit retards drove it to $300+ per share and retired. Even if he is ""guilty"" he deserves the same punishment at as the guys who crashed the market in 2008. No jail time and a massive bonus. DVF did nothing wrong. https://wherearetheshares.com/ That’s complete BS. The guy has a YouTube channel showing how he finds value stocks and talks at length about why he thinks GME is undervalued and how he came to that conclusion. He also posts his own positions, losses, gains and is very transparent. There is no way this holds up. There’s so much documented proof of the opposite Interesting what this asshat thinks he’s doing by including such “facts” on page 18 in his suit? Hmmm 🧐🤔 *”Plaintiff sold call option contracts (representing 2,000 shares) at a strike price of $100 on January 26, 2021 with expiration date of January 19, 2021, while Gill’s manipulative social media conduct drive the market for GameStop shares into an unjustified frenzy (above $400).”* Lol. This is what the SEC comes up with? We’re all a bunch of mindless sheep under DFVs control? 💎🙌🏻🚀 Lol what a joke. Is there a gofundme for him? I would 100% be down to help fund his fight against those bastards DFV. Post a video of yourself with a BTC / ETH address. I'm sure people will he happy to pay your legal fees. I bought gme stonk after the BBC told me too. Shit is rigged, needs to be unrigged. This is bullshit. when we switch from arguing about what to do to capturing and eating the people responsible, pls notify me. **“took on the fake persona of an amateur, everyday fellow, who simply was looking out for the little guy”** sounds like what [Chamath Palihapitiya](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgYZk9Mc804&ab_channel=CNBCTelevision) and [Mark Cuban](https://www.cnbc.com/video/2021/02/02/watch-cnbcs-full-interview-with-mark-cuban-on-day-trading-and-wallstreetbets.html) did on cnbc. This lawsuit is a joke and will get thrown out. Fuck the people behind it, we will back our boy against all the greedy pigs Free DFV. I am just happy that CNBC used the picture of DFV with his classic retro headband on!! Is it even illegal to lie about that? I will say there is one video where he says in the beginning something to effect ""the hedge funds have forced my hand"", which made me think that he may not be an amateur. So I get the suit,even though I don't agree with it He forgot to mention his dark arts technique for picking stocks . [roaring kitty - buy stock on feel](https://youtu.be/PQBubLv49fk) Did this person watch or read any of his stuff? My fucking dad is behind DFV after watching his youtube, lol. This person was dumb with the moves they made, that's it. That’s about the most stupid thing they could have come up with. Nice reach. Just a witch hunt to scare the have-nots into toeing the line. WE tell you where to invest and if/when you can profit. Can we class action robbing hood for blocking us from buying more GME? That’s a bunch of bullshit. Fuck Robinhood and the Hedge funds that rig the system. Join the r/wallstreetbetsELITE on Discord*: https://discord.gg/3apz2GQR4c *Membership only with 💎✋🏼. I hope he said ""this is not financial advice"" on every video. If he did, his lawyer should just ride that. Ultimately he will win, but he will be tied up in court. Also, they may freeze his assets, which will prevent further moves on GME. His current stake will be worthless once GME squeeze hits, because he won't be able to sell. The secondary (Primary?) purpose is to intimidate and silence US, the retail sector. Fuck these guys. This diamond-handed ape sells to NO ONE! ​ IANAFA. AA. ​ ETA: The timing of the lawsuit is also pretty suspicious, considering that DFV testifies before congress tommorow. The real issue is that one of the little guys almost came out on top and took as many as he could with him. The system had to show their hand as the elitist group of douche fucks they really are and now they want to make an example of the little guy. Just to make sure no one ever tries to step out of line again. $UAMY is doing the same thing. he should post his loss porn in WSB and collect his awards. my tiniest violins play for thee, sweet princes The plaintiff really sounds like a fucking moron. Boo hoo, you lost all your money on a stupid trade. It’s amazing that our elected officials can engage in insider trading legally and this guy is being sued? SMH.. I hope he wins Thanks for sharing! If they watched any of his videos they'd realize he was not an amateur. He straight up talked about his financial career and his process of stock screening was incredibly in depth. Hey... he likes the stock Fuck the plaintiffs, fuck wallstreet and shutting down one side of the trade. RoaringKitty is a fucking Saint They should be trying to find the source of all the bots and paid accounts spamming comments and pushing meme stocks. Those people were clearly engaging in a pump and dump scheme not DFV I want to counter-sue this Iovin guy cause i assume this is the reason DFV has had to keep quiet and now I am deprived of roaring kitty videos. Fuck you Christian Iovin you deserve to lose all your money USA VS DFV is about to be the trial of the century Sharks (lawyers) smell blood ($$$$) just because he likes the stock. What a fucking joke. What can we as a collective do to make sure they don’t make an example out of DFV??? This could’ve literally been any of us, a brand new 18 year old looking to put money into the company he liked as a kid, a novice investor saying fuck it and putting his eggs in one basket, a stay at home parent. Literally what the hell man! They’re manipulating this shit in front of our very eyes and it makes me wonder what can we do! There’s just no winning with these people I knew they were going to use him as a sacrificial lamb. This exactly why dude was outed. They will make his life hell to try and put the genie back in the bottle. If anyone tells me to my face the game isn’t completely rigged, after what we have all witness, i would slap their skin off their face. Capitalism as they thought us in school has been long dead for those of us who aren’t already in the upper echelons of society. “...It’s a big club, AND YOU AIN’T IN IT!” Carlin. I’m still in if he still in....or something like that This is fucking retarded. I knew that there was not gonna be a happy ending to this story but this is just sad. It seems like if you are big enough to be noticed as a retail investor you should just shut up and not post anything online. However if you are a billion+ net worth individual with connections you can be in the spotlight and say whatever you like. I cannot WAIT to read this guy's CFA sanction notice... I just hope whoever writes it has some creative flair. He has a clean slate. I dont think he did anything illegal, they dont have a case against him. It is just corpos trying to flex Isn’t this similar to suing a stock rating company for rating a stock F and then it skyrocketing or vice versa? Boomers: Never saw any value in GameStop... Everyone else: What, can’t hear you \*gta in background\* I just got margin called because of these past two red days, causing my portfolio value to decrease, and this giving me a liquidity problem. Can we halt trading for the day to stop the margin call request? Oh I don’t get that luxury? What BS. Then CNBC should be held liable for their ""financial advise"". How much merit does this lawsuit have? Isn’t it the same as trying to sue a stock rating company for rating it a stock an A but then the stock tanks or vice versa? [deleted] Congresswoman: why are you such a cunt? Vlad: thank you congresswoman... Take a job deal ? I learned about DFV a week or two before robinhood shutdown GME and at the same time learned (probably in the comments) that he worked in finance. I thought it was widely known that he knew wtf he was talking about and wasn’t just some internet bro trying to dupe people. Fuck Melvin and Shitron What’s with the cigar/piece of shit in my mouth trope in stock/business people? I’m sure this will workout just as well as their investment plan. This is why you when you are rich you cant tell no one, some wankers will try sue you And run a pump and dump which he eventually had to double down on when it got too big to look like it wasn't a pump and dump. The way I look at it, he used “Mosaic Theory” to come up with his conclusions. Nothing wrong with that. This whole lawsuit is a farce. The people suing just don’t want to take responsibility for their own losses. If you hit the buy button because of what you read on a message board, it’s your own fault. Take it to jury, he'll definetly win. Unless they bribe the jury Can't wait to never hear about this guy again He'll be fine. He showed during the Congressional Hearings that he can handle himself better than the five people in the room with Ken Griffin or the makeup and prosthetics team with Count Vladula. They cant do that!! Gimme a break. GAWD who thinks up these law suits? Oh the Suits The reach on this one +.+ They literally asked their clients to close their positions and lock in their losses if they want to be a part of the suit, so they can “confirm damages” or some shit like that. Even this is market manipulation. The lengths hedge funds will go to drive the price down, smdh. [deleted] DFV didn’t even say hey let’s buy all the stock and hold. Guy put out hours of streams and DD on why he’s long on GME and why it’s an undervalued stock. The shorts and possible short squeeze were just one part of the picture. Going that in-depth on a stock, the shorts are inevitably gonna be talked about I mean his thesis was basically “it’s going to go to 20-60”. Not infinity lol It says in the article on Bloomberg the plaintiff was some 🌈🐻who sold $200 calls when the stock was at $100. So basically this dude sold calls that were not even 100% OTM after the stock had run up more than 400% in a couple weeks. Someone find this guy and tell him he belongs in WSB. >I am confused how the plaintive can’t be seen as trying to manipulate the market? well, if you don't coordinate with an office full of other people to do it, it's wrong. if you DO coordinate with an office full of other people, it's called a hedge fund. It is a bogus suit. You can sue for anything. Dude is pissed he lost just like the hedge funds. He won’t win anything and may get stuck with a court bill. It's not manipulation. They're upset that the retail investors beat them at their own game and want to take it out on us. All while, people like Jim Cramer, Citadel, Robinhood make money at the expense of the average person. What they did is textbook manipulation, you have for example, Jim Cramer, who openly told investors on TV to sell their shares, Robinhood that literally stopped trading GME, AMC, NOK, BB to drive their prices down so shorter like Citadel don't get buried into the ground. I hope the best for Keith Gill. He is a legend, soft spoken, well mannered person who doesn't deserve to be put on the bus. He has helped many out of poverty, helped them pay their student loans, mortgages, and more. I'm not saying this because I joined the same train as he did, I didn't invest in GME but I really admire how this whole fiasco has brought the retail investors together and shun light on the corruption of Wall Street, big hedge funds, and their puppets like the politicians knifing Gill. Where is the fund to donate to u/deepfuckingvalue defense ??? What these funds are trying to do is send a message and scare the little guys. We need to fight back and turn the tables. Get them in depositions with some top notch attorneys. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think they want that fight. The same way that Jim Cramer and crew at The Street can abuse copyright law to strike down uploads of their CEO, Mr ""Mad Money"" himself, for no reason besides seemingly to protect liability from the part in that clip which has the man admitting to, and giving a quick question how-to on, manipulation of the stock market The SEC just doesn't get it, according to Jim. Why should plaintiff in this case get it when he is losing in a unlimited risk position he could've exited at any time to stimmy the losses before suing (and somehow canonized the man as some sort of vigilante type who did this in a well planned ruse?) Oh by the way go to [marketmanipulation.info](http://marketmanipulation.info) for the video as it is referenced to in Cramer's Wikipedia lmao It’s because they are rich. Rules for thee but not for me... This. 💯 Well said You’re missing the whole back-door manipulation part that Keith Gill constructed. Some notable comments: “I am not a hedge fund. I do not have clients, and I do not provide personalized investment advice for fees or commissions. I am an individual investor. My investment in GameStop and my posts on social media were entirely my own. I did not solicit anyone to buy or sell the stock for my own profit. I did not belong to any groups trying to create movements in the stock price. I never had a financial relationship with any hedge fund. I had no information about GameStop except what was public. I did not know any people inside the company, and I never spoke to any insider.” “As an individual investor, I use publicly available information to study the market and the value of specific companies. I consider a complex array of factors and track hundreds of stocks – all in search of market inefficiencies. Like many people, sometimes I post on social media my thoughts and analysis about individual stocks and whether they are correctly valued.” “**In April 2019, I accepted a marketing and financial education job at MassMutual. My job was to help develop financial education classes that advisors could present to prospective clients. I never sold securities, and I was not a financial advisor.**” “I continued analyzing stocks on my own time and investing my family’s funds. The investment I made was risky, but I was confident in my analysis, and I was willing to accept the loss if I was proven wrong.” “My investment skills had reached a level where I felt sharing them publicly could help others. I also thought that by sharing my own ideas and accepting critiques, I would be able to identify holes in my analysis. **Hedge funds and other Wall Street firms have teams of analysts working together to compile research and critique investment ideas, while individual investors have not had that advantage.** Social media platforms like YouTube, Twitter, and WallStreetBets on Reddit are leveling the playing field.” ”**I was abundantly clear that my channel was for educational purposes only, and that my aggressive style of investing was unlikely to be suitable for most folks checking out the channel.** Whether other individual investors bought the stock was irrelevant to my thesis – my focus was on the fundamentals of the business.” “As for what happened in January, others will have to explain it. Threshold lists, order flow, halting purchases – according to the media these all had a material impact on GameStop stock in January. Here’s the thing: I’ve had a bit of experience and even I barely understand these matters. **It’s alarming how little we know about the inner-workings of the market. I believe an analysis of GameStop’s recent price action must start with a discussion of the exorbitant short interest in the stock, as well as an investigation into any potentially manipulative shorting practices and brokers’ reported failures to timely deliver shares and settle trades.**” “In short, I like the stock.” - So glad he found a way to work this in to his statement 😂 Definitely worth the read! This should go to the top. He was in a educating position of financial advisors and this is his best upgrade to his resume ever. His educated financial advisors got tips from a guy who just hit it big. The lawsuit will fall flat or they will lose against DFV > In short, I like the stock. What a madman. I’m going to add he’s been posting his position daily for a year. It’s okay for large companies to state they’re shorting a stock and that’s okay? How is posting your position online not okay but it’s okay for a business to publicly say they’re shorting a company with intent to drive the price down? Bitches upset they lost money shorting a company and the little guys had a win for once Found the Melvin Capital employee I'd be afraid they'd use my name against him if I filed in their form telling them to fuck off they are asking for bad reviews and downvotes. I will do that and recommend everybody do the same. I don't want to see law firms doing unethical things. This is partially true. Most positions in finance from CEO to back office have restrictions on their personal trading. This can include pre-clearance approvals, minimum holding periods, blackout periods, etc. BUT there is no industry standard or legal requirement prevent members of a BD from trading. This is to say, he *may* have broken his company's rules, but thats it. Now this will probably be spun such that he was a sophisticated trader and manipulated a bunch of idiots on reddit to go long a dog shit company. I don't think that argument holds water but i've been let down a lot this year so who knows This should be higher-up. There are specific regulations if you work in the finance industry, which he did right up until he resigned on the day of the squeeze. Wasn't the issue just that he didn't have his employer's approval (per some article I read)? Pretty sure you're legally allowed to talk stocks even if you have a finance job, just think of anyone going on CNBC. That is correct. I worked in Citi and if I invested in stocks I would have had to let Citi know about those investments. I'm not actually sure if I could be in legal bother in my country if I didn't, but it would surely be grounds for dismissal. Thanks for explaining that He was a financial planner, he doesn't have those restrictions because he didn't have access to MNPI. Sometimes they'll still have to get public appearances preapproved, but I doubt that was the case here. Company policy isn’t the law. Don’t think there are actually any regulations he violated. Most of the restrictions around talking stocks revolve around misleading potential clients or investors about returns. Financial professionals talk about their positions all the time on TV. He had no financial relation with the company. He was a educational planner, like he sets up educational events. He wasnt a broker, advisor, or anything touching the company’s finances. Its like saying a janitor cant do this If you win a case, the other side is liable to pay your legal fees, from my understanding of a couple business law classes I took in university. I support this somehow, but to an extent. I’m conflicted. He did pretend to be a typical and did influence a ton of mofos just like they do on the TV. He just did it thinking he was a regular guy replicating what big hedges do on a different scale. He “manipulated” the price through his advocacy and “secret language” found on r/wallstreetbets. Yes I get it, its betting, but its not both ways, can’t argue I did what daddy did because daddy did it and I didn’t know without knowing. He knew and didn’t win, thats just an unfair justice system. He is no hero, he’s smart enough to find hundreds of thousands of marks, and he took advantage a little bit, with his personal logic of course. I dunno, maybe I’m doing to much today. This whole debauch sucks on many levels and its worse now I think. Papa Cohen needs to anoint Keith as Game Stop’s new Chief Public Relations Officer and make him the public face of the epic turn around. One move would instantly cement 5 million WSB degenerates as loyal lifelong customers and provide a constant and unmistakable reminder to greedy hedge fund managers of what happens when you fuck with the bull. “Free for me, not for thee!” I mean, hedge funds were not involved in originating shit loans or making CMOs He never bought because of the short. He initially said it was a long position. But later or at the same time remarked the short squeeze possibility. The difference there is that the government was involved with making it possible and required in the first place. well he's a CFA and worked professionally in financial advisory Being a financial advisor places more responsibility on him than what would be placed on a true ""amateur."" I think the basis of the suit is that he acted as if he was an amateur when he is legally a financial advisor. I don't agree with the suit, but I do see the argument being made. Dude has a CFA charter which at least means he’s not an amateur None of that matters at all. This is only true if he claims to be speaking on behalf of his employer or presented himself in a way that a regular viewer would be led to believe he is speaking on behalf of his employer. If he mentioned it was his personal opinion and his opinion doesn’t represent that of his employer, he should be fine. Please delete this post, as it might give the bad guys ideas. People are posting to social media sites during work hours?! Someone should do something about this! It’s a frivolous suit likely filed to make his life an endless legal hell and make an example out of him. It’s harassment via the legal system. Imo he didn't spam wsb with ""STOCKS HAVE VOLATILITY THEY DO NOT ONLY GO UP"" enough to protect his ass. Also, another user states that he was posting on wsb during work hours. And I think it only works against him that he never disclosed to wsb that he was a financial professional... almost everyone that is discloses themselves as much, I think he has actually created a shitstorm for himself by what he's done. Most of the actual finance people on wsb are way more lowkey because they have the brain to know their hands are tied and they can fuck themselves in more ways than one. I don’t know about WSB being one big pump and dump. A lot of people are still holding - diamond hands, remember? Perhaps some sinister inside group was seeding the whole “diamond hands” mentality throughout the sub and perhaps that same group used WSB to pump and dump. But to suggest that all (or even the majority) of WSB was in on it, seems uninformed. People really believed(d) the thesis about GME. And more importantly, people really wanted to bankrupt as many hedge funds as possible. That was the true catalyst. GME was a chance for the little guy to take down Goliath. It was always more about the fight, than the money. Well before anyone else did, too. Would this even fall under something covered by respondeat superior? I don’t think it would since he wasn’t doing it for MM in the course of conducting their business as an agent since it’s well outside the scope of his employment, esp if he did his DD off the clock. I’m just an accountant/outside observer who took a bunch of BLaw classes in college, but it doesn’t sound like it fits the bill for a case where MM ends up on the hook. I could see his CFA charter getting yanked, though, knowing how strict the CFAI is about their charterholders’ behavior. Until we become them and show them how to do it right! He was about to be outed by multiple news sources. He had an old llc registered to an email address associated with the YouTube channel. If you say stonk and misspell 'to' maybe you should stick to index funds. Yes. *Can we class action* *Robbing hood for blocking us* *From buying more GME?* \- usernamewamp --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: ""haikusbot opt out"" | Delete my comment: ""haikusbot delete"") When the squeeze hits? You don't think the $2 stock going to $480 was that happening? *USA VS DFV is* *About to be the trial* *Of the century* \- Fhutopolous --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: ""haikusbot opt out"" | Delete my comment: ""haikusbot delete"") You’re not getting it. This is an obviously frivolous lawsuit whose only aim is to harass this guy, destroy his life, and possibly bankrupt him. Cases like this can go on for years or decades. This one will. They don’t care if they win. They just want make sure this guy loses. They will make his life a legal clusterfuck nightmare. They will try to make an example out of him so that retail doesn’t organize. It’s drug lord/mob tactics. You stepped on their turf and they’re hitting back. It’s union busting. They’re saying that this will happen to anybody who tries to organize the retail customer. Not a lawyer, but I think I believe there’s no other way to handle it if you’re aiming to sue for damages. Not only for putting a number on damages, but also you have to make reasonable efforts to mitigate damages. I would think if you were alleging that your losses were due to tortious behavior, you’d have to close your positions ASAP to mitigate those losses. The This is like running in front of a car going 5mph and suing the driver lol This is why we need to create a fund for DFV and have everyone chip in. Then we turn the tables on these bastards and get them to admit this kind of shit in depositions. Dude should post that fat ass loss porn on wsb $200k in *collateral*. Probably wrote *multiples* of that in naked calls. I mean that's how margin works, right? We can't know for sure what his margin requirements were, but it's entirely possible that he printed *millions* in ""free"" money, by writing naked calls he expected to expire unexercised. Profoundly risky, stupid and greedy. He literally used publicly available information as well. Its not like he was up on Youtube spilling corporate secrets. All this was out in the open, but no one was looking at it. He just pointed out what was going on, and others made some smart moves that the "" big boys"" did not like. Simple intimidation is all we got here. We have to stand up to these ratfuckers. Not only that but those of us that have been on WallStreet bets before all this happened mocked the shit out of him and he got downvoted to hell when he first started taking about it He liked the stock Make him the new face of WSB. Where does it say he sold $200 call? From the article on Bloomberg it says he sold $200k worth of calls when the stock was trading below $100 I should probably thank that man. Those $200 calls netted me over $25k (I bailed the moment markets started ""having trouble dealing with the traffic"". Up until now I was very very content with that! Tbh, though, now I wish I had more of his ""smart money"" aka ""collateral"" Those calls were dirt cheap if you either saw the lead up, or if you had any understanding of the effect the explosion of news coverage was going to have That's makes no sense WSB buy calls they don't sell calls His name is Christian Lovin. From the guy's name, I can't tell if the whole thing's a joke or if there really is a ""Christian Lovin"" plaintiff suing Keith Gill. What is it with assholes throwing around the word ""mongoloid"" lately? Is that just the only insult to intelligence that doesn't get you auto-banned or what? That’s a bingo!!! [deleted] The entire testimony was notable, AND you omitted the punchline. you forgot “i like the stock” “As an individual investor, I use publicly available information to study the market and the *deep fucking value* of specific companies” Would’ve been so much cooler if he dropped that in there. Man, DFV you're my hero. What a fucking Champ. >I did not solicit anyone to buy or sell the stock for my own profit. Hard to believe all things considered. >I did not belong to any groups trying to create movements in the stock price. Except they and anyone else going after him are absolutely going to try to contain wsb into an even easier to lead mass of sheep. >I did not belong to any groups trying to create movements in the stock price. That's an awfully iffy one don't you think? Haha- I was waiting for that! >I’m going to add he’s been posting his position daily for a year. He posted a fundamental value oriented diligence 6 months prior to the squeeze. Had minimal posts defending his position (sometimes just responding with ""ok""). As far as I know (having not watched his streams) is he never really came at it from the angle of a short squeeze. Talking your book in a transparent manner isn't manipulation either. Portfolio managers have been doing that for fucking decades (remember Ark's Cathy Woods going on bbg talking about TSLA at $4000 in Jan 2020?) “Bitches upset they lost money shorting a company and the little guys had a win for once” Where is the evidence that that statement is true? Every where I look I see [insert multi billion dollar hedge fund that every body hates] made $X billion off of game stop.... while there are a few retail traders who made it big let’s be real here more were hurt than made it big before even comparing anything to Wall Street.... I swear my name is Stonky McStonk-face, I live on 1234 blueberry lane. He stated that he was employed in an educational capacity, I'd imagine they'd have looser restrictions, but your last point is an important one. They've already altered public perception of the situation, despite numerous socially responsible capitalists speaking against it (Cuban, Chamath, Cramer). I'm hoping we don't get let down here, but there's always a possibility that this takes a political angle like we saw before. Merryl Lynch was fined for exactly this I work in the industry with people who are stock restricted. With a big company like MM I am certain their robust compliance department is aware of what every regulated holder holds. The squeeze happened over multiple days not on a single day. Those are analysts, the appearance is preapproved, the questions are given in advance and only based on things they've already published about. Yeah nobody is stating any specific regulation or law he broke... I’m guessing it’s more along the lines of breaking company policy more than anything, which is a moot point now. Especially since I doubt GameStop was in his company’s portfolio. You can work in finance and talk about, and invest in, stocks. Ye something like that. I guess its complicated. That doesn’t matter. For a few million they can tie up 15 years of his life with harassment, stress, and bullshit. And he’ll need to keep paying out of pocket until it’s over. And if he goes broke and can’t continue his defense... oh well ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯ Do you think a few million matters to multi billion dollar hedge funds. They’re sending a message saying fuck with our shit and we ruin more than a decade of your life. It’s straight up intimidation tactics. It’s mob tactics. This is generally not true in the United States. In US litigation, you usually have to pay your own way. Other legal systems (e.g., England) are different and have a loser-pays rule. He didn’t do anything wrong. This is a frivolous lawsuit intended to harass and intimidate. not directly, although they were certainly an important part of the ecosystem that allowed those things to happen. Have you seen his videos? There’s a HUGE and lengthy disclaimer about how he’s just trying to teach and/or share his understanding of things. Repeatedly says to do your own research and draw your own conclusions. HF’s just looking for help digging themselves out of a massive fucking hole. Unless your financial advisor is a fiduciary they have no legal obligation to give good financial advice. Not sure if he was, but the suit seems like complete and total bullshit to me. But aren't financial advisors just really a sales man? Aren't feduciary the ones with legal obligations to trade in your best interest and not in that of the company or their own? Financial advisor is not a regulated title. Literally anyone can be a financial advisor with no school or certifications. He’s not “legally a financial advisor”. He may have licenses to sell insurance or other products, but him being a financial advisor means nothing. That's not really true He is, and was not, a financial advisor, which he also explains (again) in his congress remarks. Yes that distinction will get you in far more trouble than anything else They have no case whatsoever. Based on the Bloomberg article, the lawsuit is accusing him of doing things that he very obviously did not do. Unless someone was paying him for that advice, he can say whatever he wants when he's not at work. I am a charterholder and definitely an amateur when it comes to trading. The majority of a CFA is not that useful for stocks honestly. That doesn't make him a professional, the CFA is really only valued on the street by the people who have one. I quit after lvl 2 and the majority of content are really irrelevant to picking stocks. It does when you are a CFA working on the job in a regulated securities industry and cause investors to lose money. In the occupation, there are fiduciary duty laws that prohibit providing financial advice that may not be suitable for investors. There is no way to know if advice is suitable unless you understand each individual's financial situation, which is why the smart people in the industry pay compliance officers and don't make public recommendations to buy xyz stock. If MassMutual's reputation was damaged by the incident then they will be able to sue him for civil damages. The lawyers all know he has assets that they can go after because he has been posting his profits regularly on social media. Doesn't work like that. If he was not working in a regulated financial services industry you would be correct. When you work in the industry you can't just put a hat on and say you are a financial professional and then take it off and say now I am speaking for my personal opinion. That’s your view re. technical rules/regulations. He was working in financial education/marketing at his employer. He was no person’s financial advisor. And nothing he did or didn’t do in alleged violation of any rules, regs, or laws, damaged a single person. Media outlets (both conservative and liberal) have thrown him under the bus, instead of scrutinizing the heavy shorts and hedge funds who were the ones actually gambling with other people’s money/savings. Get woke. I am a CFA and work in IB (so I have learned a lot of content about the legal environment of being an investment advisor from the CFA and Series 79/63 curricula but never actually did it). I could see him being fired if he hadn't already quit or MAYBE a client could have some kind of case if he made them all buy GameStop or some shit (but I think when he quit the price was still lower than it is now so they'd have a hard time showing harm). Again, I agree the case is total shit and can't imagine any payout from DFV, only a settlement from MassMutual to avoid anything resembling bad press. DFV may have broken rules to get him fired (OBA not disclosed, trades not disclosed) but that's between him and his former employer. Even if we make millions we won’t really be rich Don’t be a Karen Lmfao sure good bot You are underestimating the amount of people that legitimately thought it was going to hit 4 figures. It was a powerful brainwashing effect hanging out in the WSB sub that week. Honestly? I don't know WHAT to think anymore. The what?? You’ve got me hanging off a cliff here! Can they immediately open up new positions so they have realized losses they can sue over and unspoken unrealized gains? Exactly First time a short seller had Diamond hands 🤣🤡 >He literally used publicly available information as well. Its not like he was up on Youtube spilling corporate secrets. I mean, I think this whole case is BS, but this seems like a legitimate concern. Do we *know* he wasn't acting on any information he might've picked up at work? Of course you can build the case using publicly available information, but was that all he had? I want him to testify and just starts reciting his first DD. And end it with a slide that says 🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀 He already is... he has his own subreddit and discord channel. if you have 100 shares you can quote an option and you get the premium. Check Chicago Board Options Exchange. It’s iovin not lovin, like jimmy iovine Not in a racist way relating to the broad division of humankind including the indigenous peoples of East Asia, SE Asia, and the Arctic region of North America. [deleted] Punchline: ""As for what I expect moving forward: GameStop’s stock price may have gotten a bit ahead of itself last month, but I’m as bullish as I’ve ever been on a potential turnaround. In short, I like the stock. And what’s stunning is that, as far as I can tell, the market remains oblivious to GameStop’s unique opportunity within the gaming industry."" I think ol' Shkreli taught us about how risky it is to say anything that pisses off congress when they call you in to lambast you on TV You think we are in a group right now? You take advice from random people on the internet? If so, help me out and buy some $NET Reddit isn’t much different from a bar downtown. I read a post on 4chan once, am I anonymous now? How so exactly? He went in on July 2019 IIRC, long before he started posting on youtube about why he thinks his position is a good long term play. Get out of town! I live at 6969 blueberry lane! Yes, you are correct. If you are 407 liable (broker-dealer associated) you have restrictions on making other people’s portfolio’s public, using insider information for personal gain or distributing insider information. You also cannot take speculative positions in your own company’s stock or purchase your own company’s stock outside of a window designated by the appropriate authorities. There are a lot of rules, but Gill broke none of them. Can confirm, work at a brokerage firm and we all think this is fucking nonsense. Christian Iovin is a dumbass who has no business trading securities. You do not EVER go into a naked options position unless you’re fully prepared to lose everything. This idiot did exactly that and deserves to eat the losses. Yep, every trade I make must be pre-approved and could potentially bar me from working on certain things in the future, really takes the fun out of it The concern isn't so much his holding as his youtube channel and reddit activity. He is walking a very fine line between ""research"" and ""pump and dump."" I would certainly expect him to lose his license and be barred from the industry. Even if he isn't convicted of ""pump and dump"" he owes a duty as a professional to provide appropriate guidance. Looking at his Reddit posts he isn't providing a lot of guidance, he is just showing his positions. Is his intention that people should emulate his position? And if so why? Who is this investment appropriate for? What are the risks? How much money should one invest? What is the exit strategy? He doesn't seem to address these questions at all. We don't even know what he did after his last post. I think it is a fair characterization of his reddit posts to say that he implicitly suggested to novice investors an extremely high risk position, without explaining what those risks were, or what the benefits were, and then just abandoned them at the most crucial moment. That seems more than adequate grounds to revoke a license and bar the person from the industry. Regardless of where one might say it started, it is clear now that it ended on Jan 29, the day he resigned. So he definitely worked in the industry during the squeeze. Edit: just to be clear I dont think he did anything nefarious. But legally this could be a problem for him. The squeeze squizzled on squizday, when it sqwoze Maybe I didn't express my point properly, I just meant that working at a brokerage firm doesn't make you ""to not be legally allowed to talk stocks"", although you obviously could have some more requirements. >its normal to not be legally allowed I think he did refer to laws and regulations, I just wanted to point out that his channel in itself wasn't ""unallowed"", although it could be problematical in regards to his employer or disclosure (IANAL and know nothing about those rules). Anyway, I don't think anyone disagrees here. I do hope the bloke doesn't get in trouble, after watching some of his older content it obviously wasn't a pumping scheme and he seems like a good fella. I have a good friend in finance, there are some general limitations but nothing preventing you necessarily. Eg: having to hold a minimum of 60 days This. I was nervous for him when he came out publicly, but I’m guessing he was about to be outed and decided to do it on his own terms. This sucks. Hadn’t even considered a Hedge Fund being behind this. I don’t doubt that as a possibility. Yeesh, mans needs to find a hideaway outside the US for sure Given his immense public support and the likelihood other hedge funds want him to succeed, what is stopping him from easily acquiring any funding needed to cover the legal fees over the years? Can someone explain why he’s being downvotes? I have not watched his videos. If what you say is correct, which I am going to assume it is, then I don't think they will have much of a case. Does he disclose that he is a financial advisor at any point? Just curious, the whole situation has gotten ridiculous. I think Robinhood and the other platforms that halted trading is where the focus should be placed. Does that mean you can give financial advice to anybody as an advisor without a license just as long as you say 'but don't listen to me, you do you, no homo""? Yes you want to deal with a registered investment advisor in the US as they have fiduciary duty. Other jurisdictions have other rules about who and who doesn't have that standard of care. Generally any CFP or CFA have a fiduciary standard via their designations. But in most places there are huge swathes of the industry where financial salespeople only have suitability duty (IE. Is this investment suitable for my client) not fiduciary duty (where clients needs must be put first in all decision-making - including things like selling lowest cost investment products where multiple versions exist like with mutual funds in Canada - where surprise, surprise, there is no fiduciary duty for almost anyone...) Yes This is correct God, I wish people understood this. Unless you are a fiduciary there are basically no legal obligations to give sound advice. You quit one level too soon! Level 3 focuses on portfolio management and wealth planning. he also has a few FINRA licenses at diff points in time: [https://brokercheck.finra.org/individual/summary/6054636](https://brokercheck.finra.org/individual/summary/6054636) or are those only valued by people who have them too? and the CFA isn't directly related to picking stocks, but it helps give a foundation to learn more about it. The only people I see bashing it haven't been able to make the cut The only damage they are taking is from suing him. He's not being sued by his former employer though. Or did I miss something... He didn't work as a CFA though, did he? It's not my view, it's reality. Of course media outlets and the industry were waiting for someone to overstep the bounds that far. You think they weren't aware of the fact that he was in the financial industry before anyone else did? But he overstepped personally, and with all of the billboards and other advertising purchased on behalf of attempting to pump the stock price it is going to make their job much easier in labeling wsb as a pump group that has to be controlled even more than it already is. (Hint: It's on fucking reddit, it's already designed to get people excited about losing their money to American market makers or become bagholders of American equities) Sad but true. I remember being young thinking a million is the rich mark. Honestly at this point if I could pull 100k a year I would have more than I needed. As far as anyone can tell, he didnt have access to any information that would be useful or relavent to Gamestop shares. [deleted] You're under arrest! You must be the notorious hacker known as 4chan Correct. Bought initially around $10, sat through the Covid crash where it dropped to ~$2, and just kept on believing in the thesis. All while us retards made fun of him for over a year - until we jumped in. BY OUR OWN VOLITION. Fuck this scapegoat bullshit. And that’s the problem. He would have been protected if he was on CNBC and had a button that made fart noises. He never disclosed he was a registered broker with Mass Mutual. In fact, the suit alleges he went to great lengths to hide that fact. That is the basis for the suit which is why MM is named in it too. Now the emotion behind the suit is obviously just being sour because they took losses, but the fact is, there are pretty specific rules regulating what he did. This comment has been deleted due to failed Reddit leadership. Yea, so I doubt he was doing anything he shouldn't have been. Since he seems like a rather mild mannered personal guy, my first thought was he resigned to try to protect Mass Mutual from the insanity he saw coming for him. Or MM told him he couldnt make his next move in his current job. Edit to ask: do you know what the rules are like post employment? Are there restrictions still for a while? [deleted] I'm pretty sure it's only illegal if he's actually advising people on stocks for work. Which he was not doing. What he did is just against company policy, not illegal. Any statements he makes like that would either need to be pre approved by his firm before making them, if directed at 25 or more retail investors/clients. So any videos he posted on youtube would have needed to be pre-approved by his firm and filed with Finra before hand. The messages posted to online forums does not require pre approval but his firm would need access to his account and have to review on a periodic basis. Don't know his licenses that he held but odds are he was a series 7 and had no idea of the regulations behind his statements/public appearances that his series 24 principal at his office work would know. His youtube channel would have been a huge issue, as anything he said on it would have needed to be pre approved by his firm and filed with finra as it would be categorized as retail communication. And since it doesn't fall into the public appearance section of non scripted events (live air television/radio) it would have needed to be pre approved by the firm and filed with finra 10 days in advance of being aired. Both MM and he could be in some trouble for these violations. This varies widely by industry and position and even company (who gets to set their own compliance regulations to a large extent, based on rules and regulations.) Ideally this will get tossed early in the litigation process. I read the complaint. in addition to the ridiculous amount of adjectives and lack of facts pleaded in the complaint, while plaintiffs also allege a 10b-5 (fraud) claim which requires a heightened pleading standard aka specific articulable facts showing fraud, not just allegations which is all that is on the complaint. I can't see this even going to trial quite honestly. Seems doubtful another hedge fund would want to fight a proxy war through him, but even if he got the fees, who wants to spend years of their life wrapped up in a legal clusterfuck? Though it is long and thorough, he does not explicitly state he is a financial advisor in the disclaimer. He says at the end “you should consider whether it is suitable for your particular circumstances and strongly consider seeking advice for your own financial or investment adviser.” I haven’t watched all of them to know for certain if he disclosed his job title, but I’ve watched multiple where he breaks down how he picks stocks, what he looks for, what sort of tools exist out there for the individual retail trader, and at various times is having dialogue with his live stream viewers who pop in with their own commentary and/or questions. It’s incredibly informative honestly. The video about tools was EXTREMELY helpful when it comes to navigating which site provides what data, keyboard shortcuts or extension shortcuts within Chrome, and just general stuff. He repeatedly comes back to how these are the things that are available/difficult for regular retail traders and having to work within them. I have no sympathy for a Mgmt fund being upset they lost money on a short position that they made public. That literally happens all the time, so yes. No one in this thread bashed it. We’re just stating that CFA isn’t good for picking stocks. It’s good for many other thing though. He has a lot of angles to get sued from: 1) Former employer 2) Investors that lost money 3) Regulatory agencies Even if he is able to ""win"" all the lawsuits coming, it is possible all of his profits get eaten up in legal fees. Robinhood is going to face a lot of lawsuits as well. Yet. Once you make it to that point it still isn’t enough. In CAD at least.. [deleted] As someone running an educational program at MassMutual this had nothing to do with his day job and I don't believe they had any duty to monitor his trading or social media. Had he been privileged to investors positions at MassMutual things would be different. I believe the suit is nonsense by a disgruntled gambler who lost. I hope Gill can get attorneys fees back, but he'll probably just have to spend $100k defending himself to win. [deleted] Is that Mrs Hands? or Mr Hands? Yeah I imagine he resigned/was asked to resign to keep the company brand intact. I have a friend that was asked to resign for going on a TV competition without informing HR first for approval lol I think you cant trade on companies affiliated with your company for like 6 months, to prevent insider trading According to the complaint Keith Gill has all of the following: * Investment advisor license (Series 65) since 2/22/2012 * Commodity futures and options broker license (Series 3) since 1/10/2013 * Securities broker license (Series 7) since 7/5/2016 * Securities broker license (Series 65) since 7/29/2016 * Securities principal and supervisory management license (Series 24) since 4/6/2017 * Chartered Financial Analyst So definitely not an amatuer investor. It's not criminal but if it's in your contract you can be sued for breach of contract What if his role was entirely in an educational capacity? He's stated that already. Not trying to null your point here, just curious about your response. He also never sold securities or dealt with customers/clients so I dunno that that would apply. Can you honestly say this without being sure of his employment contract and position? You sound very sure that he's required to do these things. Thanks for the further context on your two comments I didn't know it was so severe, the article I've read made it sound like he just needed to be green-lit by his boss basically. Yeah exactly. Would be a bitch for DFV to have to do all that. I just figured that if there was a multi billion dollar HF that has beef with Melvin for example, a few million to pay his legal fees would be chump change. I would consider it similar to browsing on r/legaladvise where there are lots of lawyers, but they typically say something like ""not *your* lawyer"" to distinguish that they are not providing legal advice. If someone then just posted some vaguely legal guidance and did not disclose they were in fact a lawyer, it still doesn't make them *your* lawyer and revealing themselves doesn't change anything regarding the advice. In Gill's videos, if he says you should consult a financial advisor, that implicitly (to me) means he's saying he is not *your* financial advisor and makes it irrelevant to me that he actually is *a* financial advisor. [This link may be of interest to you](https://www.quora.com/If-I-am-falsely-sued-can-I-counter-sue-for-legal-fees) > The American Rule is troubling to outsiders because it seems to encourage what are called “strike suits” or harassment suits. In that scenario a weak case is filed for the purpose of harming or exacting a settlement from the defendant. Because each side pays their own attorney fees, the plaintiff has less to lose under the American Rule than the English Rule. In a way the American Rule creates a level of complexity to litigation that sometimes unfairly injects attorney’s fees into the conduct of the case. You appear to be a victim of that scenario. > Of course, there are mechanisms to reduce the sometimes unfair application of the American Rule. There is a principle called abuse of process, where actions are taken by an attorney solely or at least mainly to increase the litigation cost burden of a party. There are damages awarded for abuse of process. Also, every state has a provision that allows the court under equity principles to follow the English Rule in some cases. Not coincidently you should consult a local lawyer about that. Certainly you may have a right to an award for all or part of your attorney fees, although that is merely an observation based on your description and certainly is not legal advice. The regulations are not limited to actual traders. Any registered trader must follow the same rules whether they are active traders or not. This is because they have *access* to information that can still enrich them or their institution. You're belief on their duty is wholly irrelevant. They statue states clearly they are. The suit is a guy being a sore loser, I agree on that. It's doesn't mean that Gill was in the right. He won't lose in terms of owing the guy damages, but he knew he was violating the statute. He and MM are going to pay massive fines and he'll face some sort of industry suspension because of it. The regulations are not limited to actual traders. Any registered trader must follow the same rules whether they are active traders or not. This is because they have *access* to information that can still enrich them or their institution. This comment has been deleted due to failed Reddit leadership. I don't think it was all that lucrative of a job. He could retire on the $13M cash he made and do something more interesting I imagine. You can trade all you want if you don't have material non-public information. If you do, you probably shouldn't trade. There may be some 6 month rule of thumb for executives here though. And even then, if you quit you can make a trade plan and sell X shares every week for the next 6 months if you want. I did not realize this, my apologies, going to correct my post. Over what? What are the damages? I don't think this is really how it works. You get fired for breaching an employment contract not arbitrarily sued. I don’t want to speak to his testimony as I haven’t had a chance to read through it first hand myself and don’t want to say something that is not true/half true. I’ll try to respond back here after I’ve read it, or respond to you personally when I have some free time to thoroughly look it over. Regarding his role it may or may not make a difference depending on some different circumstances. Licenses held, title of position, influence in the firm, influence over clients of the company. No matter what his role is though his firm could be facing consequences as their role in performing their due diligence around anyone they employ and what they say to the public would need to be monitored/approved, and filed with FINRA correctly. So I read through his testimony finally and made a larger comment elsewhere. Even though his position was labeled as such he was actually a registered rep, and securities principal as well. Both of which would easily fall well within the frame of supervision of outside social media and have to adhere to the FINRA rules around communication. You can check him out and the licenses he held by going to brokercheck at FINRAs website. [Here’s a link to Keith Gill in case you are interested.](https://brokercheck.finra.org/individual/summary/6054636#examsSection) I also made a new post with more detailed information about my take on the situation if you care. Anyways take care and be well! I will never speak with 100 certainty because that’s something fools do. But based upon my knowledge of the industry and FINRA/SEC rules and regulations. People employed by financial institutions in back office situations are under the scope as are advisors, analysts, traders etc. Employees at financial institutions/BDs need to disclose their social media to the firm and give them access to review it for just these types of situations. I don’t know if this is a fault of his and not disclosing this or if it was his employer not doing their proper due diligence in asking/obtaining the information. No problem man, just trying to dispel some of the mysticism and mis information being said, that he didn’t do anything wrong. As usual it’s a lot more complicated than it appears on the surface level. It’d be interesting to see if he listed his YouTube account and Reddit account to his firm as social media that he used and thus should be monitored for these types of things. What regulations are you referring to? Almost none of this is statute, and open to compliance department interpretations of SEC/FINRA regulations. How do you define a ""registered trader"" for the purposes of this discussion? For instance, just because you work for a hedge fund and have a Series 57 doesn't mean you're an access person who needs their trades to be supervised. If you aren't privy to individuals/positions, giving specific investment advise or trading as part of your job duties I don't believe MassMutual has an obligation to monitor trading activity and definitely not social media. That itself is the problem for him as a licensed professional and will cause him to lose his license. He should have been disclosing that information about himself if he was pushing a trading strategy. Also breach of contract suits are definitely a thing You'd definitely get fired, who knows, maybe they have a stipulation in the contract as to what damages breaching the clause will result in being sought after FWIW all I meant was that the comment I replied to was too broad. Did you have a chance to read his [testimony](https://docs.house.gov/meetings/BA/BA00/20210218/111207/HHRG-117-BA00-Wstate-GillK-20210218.pdf) prepared for tomorrow with Congress? I'd be curious on your take given the further details we got on what he did professionally, I wonder if that changes your take to an extent as to his level of responsibility. It is but not over something like this. Usually over breaches with direct monetary consequences. Not employment contracts. I guess it effects their reputation and they may get investigated but that’s a stretch from the breach of contract imo. Employment contracts aren’t really like that. A breach pretty much just means you can get fired. Hey man no worries, I gotcha. I haven’t had a chance to check it out yet. When I do I’ll make sure either to respond back here or message you personally on my take. Cheers man and have a great night! So after reading his testimony I think his lawyers/counsel did a good job in preparing him for this. I’m pretty certain they are the ones who advised him to stop making the posts on Reddit/social media for the time being. With that said I don’t believe he’ll be facing huge fines or sanctions from the SEC/FINRA. I do think it is possible for him to be facing repercussions because even though he was listed as a director of marketing/ customer education, he is a series 24 registered principal and should have known better about his dealings with the public. I checked him out on brokercheck through the FINRA website and he’s not an everyday individual investor as his testimony would leave you to believe. [Keith Gill brokercheck](https://brokercheck.finra.org/individual/summary/6054636#examsSection) I think realistically if he were to be facing punishment he would get a suspension from working in the industry for a time. Possibly a small fine too, as I could see a case for it being a misrepresentation of his qualifications through his social media postings. Another thing that could get him in trouble would be if he were to have mentioned any stocks in his posts/ videos and traded in a way that was not in line with the recommendations he stated. For example if he talks about a stock and says he thinks they are worth buying but sells the stock, says a stock is a hold but sells or says the stock isn’t worth buying or should be sold but buys instead. All of those would be violations which could get him in trouble. There’s just not enough public information on everything to say definitely one way the other. My gut says he could be facing small sanctions/fines, but I’m also a pessimist my wife tells me. Thanks pal enjoy your evening!" Russian central bank urges calm amid cash run fears,2681,http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60543994,"[deleted] Banks telling the public to calm down is the best way to cause panic. It’s time to panic. Please revolt against your corrupt government. Even from a neutral observer (I am not), if you are in Russia right now panic! The time to panic is when the banks tell you not to and restrict ATM withdrawals to $20 a day. The banks are fucked. If more people start to take their money out then the banks will run out of cash. And that’s when shit is really going to hit the fan. Nice work from fuckface putin! 🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦 [deleted] [deleted] Wouldn't it be something if it's a bank run that brings Putin down? The great lesson of the fall of the Soviet Union is that all governments, no matter how evil and brutal, ultimately depend on the people's permission to exist at all. Putin may have reached the end of the Russian people's patience. I just think it’s crazy how a mfer gonna tell ME I can only pull out $20 of MY own money… we gotta fight or something If you want to see the bank run in video form at a random Moscow ATM: https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/t2nky9/meanwhile_in_moscow_long_queues_at_atms/ [deleted] Calm?? They said they would use citizens' money to cover loses. Wait til the bank runs out of USD. Nobody wants rubles, that’s for sure. Sounds like Putin needs to have a Fireside Zoom and tell the people they have nothing to fear but fear itself. Or him if they dare speak out. Sorta worked for FDR when there was threat of bank run in the US in the 30’s. ⚠️ If you're in #Ukraine and reading this please turn geolocation off on your phone now. Russia is using it to track gatherings. Tell those around you to do the same. Oh well, a good old fashioned bank run. Love how people taking their own money out is causing fear in the banking system... Does anyone have faith in the financial system they created? Anyone?? 📉 ""please don't take your money from the bank, it is worthless anyways"" - Russian banks, probably Gotta get that cash to pay for the casket for your dead child soldier. Stand up to this scumbag Russia! I really would like to see the faces of wealthier russians trying to leave this mild discomfort and finding out all flights to west were cancelled. When a bank urges calm you know it’s gonna be a shit show. EU will paralize the asset of Russia's CB, this will freeze its transactions. Take that toilet paper out of the ATM - your leadership has just eliminated all of your hard work (people of Russia) Putin won’t survive this week. I’ve been wrong before but it just feels like this is the end for Putin. The only question now is if he’s crazy enough to take everyone else with him. I think Russia will attack more countries I couldn’t imagine having money in Russian banks and trusting it’s safe in there. Absolutely 100% idiots banking with Russia at this point. Haha get fucked. Sorry had to say it Nah, go ahead and panic. Να σας κουρεψουν ρε πουστοππεζεβεγκοι Don’t worry, they’ll just print more. Wouldn’t you want to buy food and supplies vs paper money? I would want useful things of value in a crazy uncertain time where the value of money may crash. Mattress sales through the roof. Nope. You should be scared. Your slum lord-in-chief Putin picked a fight he can't win. You will pay until he is gone. As in, permanently gone. If you are a citizen of Russia know this: the world is not against you. Most people in the United States fears for you and we want you and your families to succeed. We are against Mr. Putin and his reckless plans. He is dragging you down a road that with will hurt you. You have to make a decision RIGHT NOW. Will you back this guy or move to throw him out? The choice is yours Russia. Whatever you choose be prepared to live with the consequences. LOLz Invest in SHINJA it’s the future of financial freedom 🌪🥷 Anon will be having fun lol All i would say to all of you is try and be the first one at the bank and youll be ok Unintended consequences are a bitch. Please, oligarchy first 😬 spooky shit. Esp considering most Russians want nothing to do with this, it is all egomaniac Putin - yet it’ll be his people that are hit the hardest. Bank runs, shortages on food, fuel, etc. it’s gonna get worse and they didn’t even sign up for this shit. Fuck Putin. Slava Ukraini. yor funds have been reappropriated hehe I hope the bank vaults go empty Corralito incoming Kinda hard to quell the panic when the Deputy Leader in the Duma is talking about the Govt confiscating everyone’s bank deposits if Russia’s overseas assets are frozen. Sounds like a good reason for the US, UK and EU to do just that - I can’t imagine there will be many Russians left who are sympathetic to Putin if he takes their money. What a lunatic Because if you take “your” money then the government can’t take it & use it to find their own war…. Again, the Russian people lose out due to an absolute headcase on a war path to create something that the world has outgrew…. War is not in our nature anymore… you can see that from the “Russian soldiers” and their nature when captured. They have no idea what to do or how to be these ‘savages’ that Putin wants them to be. They switched over to BRICS for SWIFT but too little too late. Should've done this months ago for it to have been effective, get fucked I guess I'd love to see all the big investment banks dump rubles for shits. Oh they should panic and panic hard as it’s only going to get worse until they neuter their dog Putin. I saw that calm. A lot of my friends called me ( I immigrated 5 years ago) from Moscow in panic as their savings fade away. People search in city for ATM with USD and EUR instead of working. Better get your money out now. When banks urge calm, the end is nigh. Didn’t Putin just warn he’s taking peoples money like 700billion if sanctions aren’t lifted? Lol of course they’d say don’t panic. What I wanna know is who’s buying’ The Dip? Anyone wants to share financial sites subscriptions like SeekingAlpha, CNBC, Bloomberg? PM me please. Hope we can get to a couple bucks a month and enjoy the news together! I also like to share Disney+, Google One (storage), Spotify, etc if anyone is interested. Can’t wait to see the shit show tomorrow. I truly hope Putin suffers. Et tu Brute? It's been interesting week after interesting week almost non-stop since 2016. I hate how interesting the past several years have been. I hope Russian leadership comes to their senses, I’d rather have that than its government go into disarray. After reading ‘[Demon in the freezer](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Demon_in_the_Freezer)’ I’m most alarmed with the country going into chaos and fracturing with no accountability. Or month. This will last for months Like the time the plane I was on went from about 100 ft above the runway on approach into a steep ascent. The pilot saying there was nothing to worry about definitely didn't make me feel any better. It’s the same when you tell your wife to calm down. Literally has the opposite effect. Well European markets are down and US futures are down right now. Will be really interesting to see how the markets react today. So far the markets have been really positive on this whole situation (was kind of down leading into it because of the uncertainty). I'm guessing the markets will open lower then climb all day. Banks down, oil probably up. Maybe semiconductors down You know who also needs money to feed themselves and their family? Soldiers and police. And without them Putin is fucked. And this is all within a couple of days, I can’t see this lasting long before some serious shit goes down in Russia. Yea I had a Russian troll telling me some BS propaganda. I reminded him that it may be a while before he gets his next paycheck and to think of Putin when his next meal costs more than said paycheck. Can’t wait to see Putin end up dead like Gaddafi. The time to panic was a few weeks ago when all the troop buildups were taking place. If you wait until everyone else panics and lines up at the ATM machine then it's too late to do anything. How long until Putin is retired.. uh I mean gracefully passes the baton? If they overthrow Putin pronto, they could grow like Poland has in pretty short order. Let’s hope they rise up against him then This is what you get when you support an autocrat for decades. If we make the same mistakes we’ll deserve the same consequences. Let us all hope. Historically speaking the governments of Russia only change from internal forces not external ones. This whole situation is very interesting from an observer's perspective. I think the west hasn't been this riled up about a situation in a long time ... I mean even just on Reddit we are getting top of /r/all posts about sending weapons to another country. That's pretty crazy since usually Reddit is anti war. Plus we might see one of the first public cyber wars. You just know these governments have some crazy hacks up their sleeves. I hope we see the end of his reign as a result of this. I always see the whole ‘someone even worse will take his place’ response to Putin’s end. We’ll take our chances. I hope the Russian people know we love them and I hope they get a better leader. The answer to this is self custody via crypto EDIT since I can’t respond to people. You can use stablecoins to do daily transactions, you don’t have to use a volatile crypto asset. Stablecoins can be pegged to fiat or they can be pegged to a basket of goods or they can be pegged to fiat pre-inflation. You can peg them to anything. What’s currently missing is the ability for merchants to accept stablecoins as payment. Most of those rails need to get built out still. But they will soon, and we should see less of things like lines in front of a bank But you can currently load up a pre-paid Visa card with crypto that you self custody and use that. It’s still relying on a centralized service like Crypto.com or Coinbase but at least you can load up more than 20 bucks at a time so I would probably do that while waiting for the rails to get built out. Holy moly. I am assuming that was the line for the atm and not the Macdonalds. I don’t see how they can avert a financial crisis at this point. I tho SWIFT ban is for international transfactions, domestically in russia they can still do all the banking stuff right? why are they rushing out to take out money? Does SWIFT interfere with ATM taking out money domestically or pay bills etc over there? Well Putin being part of that crowd is bolstering their nuke deterrence. Because you know, the “do nothing” sanctions Waiting for Tucker Carlson and Sean Hannity to spoonfeed them their next smoothbrain take. I never said sanctions do nothing, but tbf sanctions normally don’t do much. This is an extreme situation. Sanctions didn't stop nor deter the invasion Go to your bank and try to withdraw >$10K and see if you get it People changing numbers in a database into pieces of paper is only a problem for the printers. It's when they change them into dollars (or bitcoin) that the bankers need to worry. Lol no. He’ll be around for awhile longer. Just gotta give him a way out and allow him to retire with $billions. No revenge needed for the sake of humanity. ...or they might be Russians and have limited options I feel awful for the people. Don’t hate the people hate the Putin Get your wheelbarrows ready then, because you'll need one to buy a candy bar [deleted] Putin isn't going to suffer. The dude has been robbing Russians blindly and has created a vast amount of wealth. Every estimate puts him as a billionaire and while the exact amount is impossible to detail, Russia supplies nearly 40% of Europe's energy. Think about how much money you can skim from that without knowing. Look at how his cronies have gotten wealthy aligning themselves with Putin. The average Russian will suffer. Their businesses will die down due to sanctions. The only thing Russia has going for them is they have China's trading to rely on and the insane amount of energy. > I truly hope Putin suffers. I truly hope that he can be toppled with as little bloodshed as possible. Disgusting Et me buddy. Make Life Boring Again “May your children be born in interesting times.” That sounds like a wish of good fortune on the surface but you can bet your ass it isn’t. Usually there isn’t anything to worry about in that situation tbh. Pilots are encouraged to go around if it doesn’t look right to them. Way better than crashing. If it’s poor visibility, it can simply be that they can’t see the runway at the required altitude because of fog etc, and not all airplanes can fly a cat III b approach (auto land). Can even go around for an errant gust of wind or unexpected wind shear. Edit: clarity If you are looking for Science fiction, its in isle 7 Yea there’s talk about how the sanctions will wreck Russia for centuries. But if Putin were replaced and a new regime was relatively willing to play ball with the west, they could probably rebuild huge swathes of the economy while balancing between the west and China. And then return to their position as a superpower within a few decades. [deleted] Whole things has a vibe of the Spanish civil war, but if everyone involved knew what happened in Europe afterwards. Russia is following an old script that hits the deepest European fears, so the response to this is going to be strong. They got Germany to change 30 years of defense and foreign policy in *3 days*. The EU is going to basically dismantle all of the Russian influence networks they spent the last two decades building. A currency that changes value frequently and drastically is not a good currency. It is a speculative commodity. Ah crypto… it’s not gonna do shit when there is no power. Crypto is useless without the Infra to back it up. For example Ukraine getting power stations blown up. You gonna pay for that bread with what exactly? By giving my your iPhone cause that ain’t doing anything except being a paperweight. I take meat, water, high calorie food, medical supplies and weapons or things I can trade right now for those. How do you build a trustless stablecoin that can be pegged to a basket of things without relying on the traditional system at some point? You can bury the connection as deep as you want but it’s not like a coin can hold wheat It isn't just the SWIFT ban, but all the combined sanctions coming down against Russia. Their currency has gone from 74 rubles per dollar pre-invasion, to 104 rubles per dollar today. That line of people is supposedly for an ATM that dispenses Euros. So withdrawaling their money in a more stable currency will help protect them from runaway inflation of the ruble. You can, they may just have to order the money ahead of time if in cash. You can absolutely transfer large amounts of money out of the bank though. I see it all the time The problem is that our money is backed by debt... And those printers have been going none stop for a while now.. Or the famous Zimbabwe $1Trillion note which was worthless. Good article but it was written before Russia was kicked off SWIFT so most of the arguments re: sanction-proofing are no longer accurate. And the argument re: their foreign currency reserves is moot when they can't use those reserves due to the isolation of their central bank. [deleted] There’s only so long that a government can sustain an angry population. History has a plethora of examples of governments being overthrown by its people who have reached their limits. Russia is not immune. They were estimated to have 680 billion usd in foreign reserves. They are burning through an estimated 20bn per day in ammunition, wages and fuel in Ukraine. Every single day they are shut out from international markets is a single day they are close to defeat in Ukraine. Putin cant sanction proof the oligarchs around him having their Italian villas and super yachts confiscated leading to environment of dissent Planet Money missed the point of what the sanctions are for. The public, at large will begin rioting in Russia. Putin will be fighting on two fronts. Eventually his military will turn on him That’s before they were cut off from various banking organizations. Even Switzerland is freezing assets. Sure we won’t get to all their secret stockpiles, but we will get to enough of them to make this really sting. Russia’s top two billionaires already speaking out against the war. Just wait till Putin starts seizing oligarch funds to keep this idiotic shit invasion afloat. There will be unrest even in his inner circle. Agree, all in all, the middle class is the one that suffered the most. Not only in russian, ukraine, but also in eu (like myself paying x2 my gas fee, and it might worst this year). Though that's 2 days old. Putin didn't think his forex reserves would get sanctioned. Not trying give Putin any credit but you don't go to war without at least planning economic fallback options. I think Putin will be unscathed by these sanctions honestly His bunker house alone is estimated to have cost over $1.3 billion. I have no doubt he is the richest person on earth. All the money in the worlds can't stop violent mobs. Look at the Insurrection at the Capitol. If they had been carrying guns, Mike Pence might well have been killed, along with Nancy Pelosi and a slew of Democrats. Yeah, sure but how is he storing his wealth in a way that won’t see devaluation as the Russian economy collapses and he’s essentially barred from foreign investment? Watched The Crown last night. A coup could require as little as 15 people. Autopilot on airplanes are actually just controlled by cats? Where are they located? What are their names? Aisle, you numb fucks I thought isle 7 was religion. Then using their wealth they start to militarize again, and the cycle repeats... Unfortunately… That’s not how war works. The little guy always pays the highest price. Germany population has kind of been afraid about what their gov does every since WW2. You know you guys don't believe me but I'm strongly in the opinion that USA / NATO will turn Russia into Iran. [deleted] I’m talking about stablecoins genius This is in Russia where the power is fine It depends on how you approach it but there are definitely stablecoins pegged to assets like gold. Pax Gold for instance. Some are backed with collateral, some prices are determined by arbitrage and some are algorithmic. I’m not saying all of them will work out perfectly, but some definitely will. Stablecoins aren’t going away anytime soon, and I would be willing to bet that a few stablecoins we see today will still be around 10 years from now. Read more here https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/stablecoin.asp As for the traditional finance vs crypto question. That’s missing the point. Eventually crypto and traditional finance will *merge*. That is the ultimate goal for DeFi. The goal of DeFi isn’t to replace the traditional financial system, it’s to assimilate it. ahhhh thanks so much Not if everyone goes at the same time, same as Russia. Money *is* debt. Any time money claims to be backed by something other than debt, that is an illusion; its value arises as a claim on productive capacity, that is, debt. Not to mention the fact that all foreign assets of the Russian central bank are to be frozen offshore. As far as I know, this has never happened in history before. [deleted] Just a random fact, all banks that are energy / oil related were not impacted by the SWIFT sanction. Kind of backwards logic but it's true. Ukrainians are doing their part, time for Russians to do theirs. Russians are notorious for bearing hardships and strong dictators. I dont see any change on the wind anytime soon. Russians are notorious for bearing hardships and strong dictators. I dont see any change on the wind anytime soon. I don't know where this 20bn figure is coming from (nor in which currency it's denominated), but that figure seems like an absurd exaggeration. Russia's entire military budget would be burned in less than 5 days at that rate. It's entire GDP within 2 months. 400 billion has now been effectively seized. [deleted] Have you seen pictures of his meetings with his inner circle lately? They sit across the room from him so he can dodge their shivs. Drive less, get a motorized bike, it’s fun too. I think he just severely underestimated the task with low morale and the worlds pretty united response I can’t imagine the economic sanctions are good for property values in Russia Russians have much more violent capitol police. Theyre used to crushing protestors. Good to know. Thank you for your research. If spelling made that lunatic gracefully retire, I’d be carrying all of Merriam Webster Or maybe we'll see democracy for the first time on the eastern plains of Europe. FB stock, alibaba, Tesla, etc… even currencies trading trillions each day, experience wild price swings. Volume has little to do with anything except make each step smoother Aren’t stable coins only stable because they are pegged to fiat currencies? Hardly a ringing endorsement of crypto that the only viable currency it offers is only stable because it is pegged to the traditional international currency and banking system. Well if you meant “stablecoins,” write “stablecoins” and not “crypto.” Please make your statements more specific. No need for ad hominem attacks if you can’t articulate your point clearly. Your reply was in regards to: “ I just think it’s crazy how a mfer gonna tell ME I can only pull out $20 of MY own money” In regards to PAXG it’s stored in a US vault. The US could stop its movement to Russia in the same way that they stopped Afghanistan from getting to their gold. That’s before you get into the dozen of other issues you raised such as that if you only think a few are surviving the next 10 years that’s a fairly risky proposition. That dude is in Canada It was done to Iran as part of the sanctions there. But the bulk of the arguments made are dependent on Russia's ability to make payments internationally and in foreign currencies, which the SWIFT sanctions would largely make impossible Are you breaking news or do you not realize that the details haven't even been finalized yet? Hungry people get angry. You could say that again > Russians are notorious for bearing hardships and strong dictators. And yet, they have overthrown evil rulers twice in the last century or so. [deleted] But this war is very different. It is not swift like previous invasions, its slow and messy and it's embarrassing the kremlin. And you know how the Kremlin feels about being embarrassed. Some of the most [pro putin oligarchs](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vice.com/amp/en/article/xgd75w/russian-oligarchs-speaking-out-against-war-ukraine) are coming out condemning the war, hell even [Boris Yeltsin's daughter and other children of the Oligarchs](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russian-oligarch-children-athletes-putin-b2023862.html%3Famp) is vocally against it. There is an unprecedented level of vocal dissent from the top. Even rats know when to flee a sinking ship. Oil heats homes There are ways to purchase property in other countries. Not if the police aren't getting paid and they have to stand in bread lines for 8 hours a day. [deleted] My actual point was 1) to use self custody to bypass the banking system 2) when you need money sell some of the crypto for stablecoin via a decentralized exchange 3) transfer the stablecoin out to a prepaid Visa card such as Coinbase or Crypto.com to pay for expenses Anything beyond that is missing the point of my original post Don’t worry China has been buying Russian oil using the Yuan for about 6 months now India is considering using rupees. That takes some of the sting out of SWIFT sanctions Except they have huge stockpiles of gold. No sanction can stop that. It's one of the proposals Not breaking news haha. Just what I've heard in the news. Hopefully I'm wrong. Hungry people don't stay hungry for long. Probably had a Reddit glitch. No need to downvote the dude. That would be $238 million at the exchange rate right now Yeah….55-60 Fahrenheit is as low as I can handle without turning on the heater. And there are ways to seize that property Because its a speculative asset Why is the self-custody relevant? If you’re trusting the intermediary in step 3, you could just hold a prepaid visa gift card the whole time. Which will at some point interact with the traditional finance system and be vulnerable to sanctions. And that was literally the posit you replied to with “ The answer to this”. What is the antecedent of this? [removed] If Russia’s oil supply remains the same but the demand shrinks form global to just China and a few other countries, seems logical to assume that the sanctions will hurt them financially Think about why money was invented as a medium of exchange in place of a barter system ...after they eat Putin. They get hope from fire and smoke as they reach for tha dawn. What? Why did people do that!!! I upvoted That figure is more sensible imo; the Iraq war was esimated to cost the US $300m/day That seems much more reasonable given the expense of the opening salvos. Missiles are expensive. I dont think you understand how shell companies work Because if you had self custody prior to the 20 dollar limit you would be smooth sailing right now instead of standing in a 2 hour line at the mall for your turn at an ATM. I’ll state it another way. If you didn’t have your money in a bank, you would be able to self fund a pre paid debit card without issue. Sure you could just hoard cash in a mattress but I’d rather hold crypto online. This is the last time I talk to you. Any more dumb questions and I block you. Yeah good luck sanctioning China. [From 2012](https://www.cnn.com/2012/11/29/world/meast/turkey-iran-gold-for-oil/index.html): > Over the last six months, Iran has evaded U.S. sanctions by importing Turkish gold to pay for billions of dollars worth of energy sales to Turkey. Turkey’s deputy prime minister has described what amounts to a gold-for-oil barter system. [deleted] A shell company will not shield Putin from these sanctions. It’s pretty silly of you to think that’s a barrier to seizing his assets abroad What dumb question did I ask? The self-custody isn’t relevant in this example or using a stablecoin. You could just hold your money in (hopefully large quantities of) Visa gift cards and it would have the same effect. There are a lot of benefits to stablecoins but this isn’t one of them. If anything it adds risks from something you stated that not all stablecoins will survive. So you’re adding risk without adding any unique benefit. Maybe you should look at a map to help you figure out why this was possible To answer that question you would have to look at the history of the global financial system. Spoiler alert: it’s not because gold is money. [deleted] Sorry, are you suggesting that countries are just going to accept a truckload of gold in exchange for goods and services? [removed] https://www.google.com/amp/s/qz.com/2133734/what-overseas-assets-does-vladimir-putin-own/amp/ Don't even care to respond back to you anymore. Just read some basic articles and learn how it works before being stubbornly ignorant. In short, you can't seize or freeze assets you do not know belong to Putin. And there are many shell companies you can syphon money to over a period of three decades that have gone undetected. Even in NYC, there are tons of apartment units that no one knows who even owns. What was my original comment? Read the first line. SELF CUSTODY. Maybe you should learn about airplanes and ships. A billion dollars in gold weighs about 15 tons. A single 747 can carry over a hundred tons of cargo. Many central [banks](https://www.gold.org/goldhub/research/gold-demand-trends/gold-demand-trends-full-year-2021/central-banks-and-other-institutions) are [currently](https://www.gold.org/goldhub/data/2021-central-bank-gold-reserve-survey) buying gold on the OTC market and taking delivery of the bars. They don't have to be adjacent to their trading partners. Besides which, look at your own map and you'll see Russia is adjacent to China. The bias against gold here is beyond all reason, and not shared by central banks. I'm not an advocate of the gold standard, but the idea that gold is nothing but a worthless relic of a bygone era is simply false. It doesn't even back currencies anymore >My dad When someone really has no idea what they're talking about... here's an example of how people are prosecuted for using shell companies to avoid sanctions: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-19/iranians-charged-with-dodging-sanctions-with-shell-companies This article is wrong. Sorry that the one weird news source you rely on isn't reliable in explaining the facts to you. What value does self-custody provide in your example over just holding it all in visa gift cards? That does not sound as convenient as electronically transferring money to me, but you do what works for you Not everyone gets caught, dummy.... how many drugs do you think that gets seized in the Southern border gets caught versus how many that gets through? Just like tax returns. How many do you think get audited versus those that don't? Lol. Peace out. When you get educated and don't react like a stubborn two year old, maybe we can have an adult discussion. You could do either. You could put cash in a mattress. All are equally valid means of avoiding standing in line for the ATM. I’d personally rather go the crypto route but I’m not going to bother the mattress hoarders. That’s their choice Electronic transfers are definitely more convenient, if sanctions haven't made them, as you put it, ""largely impossible."" The problem is that 99.99% of the time storing it in a bank works. And it provides some level of benefit (interest, credit scores etc.). And self-custody is significantly harder than letting a bank think about that stuff. Most people write their passwords down in Excel files or Notes or on pieces of paper. They need a middleman. And any middleman is at some point going to be vulnerable to sanctions. Personally I use a mix. I have crypto (don’t have any stablecoins for a long time) but I definitely use the traditional finance system. Because it’s easy and it works 99.99% of the time and it minimizes the risk of me messing up and losing a significant percent of my net worth. So you get the point of the sanctions now. Good. 99.99% of the time it works….until it doesn’t. Then you find yourself waiting in a 2 hour line at McDonald’s to withdraw 20 bucks. I never said sanctions have no purpose. I am saying that while they definitely hurt, Russia does have countermeasures, and gold is one of them. But it’s not very convenient compared to having a medium of exchange like money that can be sent electronically Of course it's inconvenient. That's why it's a countermeasure, not their normal practice." Janet Yellen Rejects Idea Corporate Greed Is to Blame for Inflation,2670,https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-09/yellen-rejects-idea-corporate-greed-is-to-blame-for-inflation?srnd=premium,"[deleted] I mean, I would hope the Secretary of the Treasury has a basic understanding of economics. She def knows which side the toast is buttered It was the shutdowns. You can’t disrupt supply chains to that level without ripples that will last for years. There were people talking about this in 2020. At some point, finances can/will become so bad for most that it will affect average life expectancy. Mistakes were made by the Fed, but everything was an attempt to help appease an economy that had major sectors shutting down for *months.*. For everyone saying they printed too much money, yes maybe that’s true, but odds are your life would’ve been much worse that year if they hadn’t. I don’t know what the US government pays her, they should just look at the experts in Reddit comments and form policy there Companies are always going to try to make the most money possible. Idk why people expect anything else. She also rejected the idea that too much stimmy could cause inflation. She's right. She would be right if companies werent posting record profits over inflation. Runaway printing of new money is the real cause of inflation. Prices rise in answer to weakened currency. Anyone with a popped collar can’t be in my best interest Net worth of $20,000,000. Come on man, price gouging at every corner you look. Someone needs to stand up for the people and it’s clear the US Govt won’t, Her career has been rubber stamping corporate greed and handing out trillions to the banks and corporations that own her. Inflation was not cause by small checks to us peasants. It was partly the fresh +$4 trillion the Fed gave to the investors, banks, and corporations that own it. That money had to go somewhere, and they get to blame us peasants. The world’s biggest corporations have been riding a three-decade wave of profit growth, market expansion, and declining costs. \- Some 573 people have joined the billionaire ranks since 2020, bringing the worldwide total to 2,668, according to an analysis released by Oxfam on Sunday. That means a new billionaire was minted about every 30 hours, on average, so far during the pandemic, CNN reported.22 May 2022 I think if you are going to blame corporate greed for inflation then you also have to thank corporate greed for when prices are low because a firm is willing to take a loss on a promotion or is trying to force competitors out of the market. [deleted] I wonder if these people even believe themselves at this point. This lady trying to sell dehydration packets in the desert to people. I think it’s stemming more from supply-side shortages. Corporate greed has been rampant for decades but we haven’t seen inflation like this since the previous millennium. It’s like blaming one raindrop for the flood at this point. Weird headline. Who even says price gouging is inflation? The Fed causing inflation and gas price gouging can both be true. *laughing sooo hard* the hypocrisy of the neo-liberals on full display. The posts in this thread are just sad. How are people posting in a finance sub this illiterate, that they unironically claim inflation is due to ""corporate greed"". Please, don't talk about things, if you have no idea about them. i mean i think she is right. its not like corporations have suddenly become greedier in the past two years. other conditions are enabling them to raise prices and keep customers. we need to eliminate those conditions. I can’t stand all the misdirected attacking on corporation and billionaires. It’s our job as citizens to vote and to change laws. Period. It’s like opening up an all you can eat buffet and complaining when the gluttons ruin it for everyone else. Yea, no doy. It's political greed that causes it. She's kind of correct though. The corps didn't print money. But she absolutely must defend them because.. well.. ahem.. Janet... we (the corps) are paying you and have paid for you to be where you are currently wink wink You don't say!? At least Arizona brand drinks are immune to inflation. They printed Trillions of dollars and watered down the currency. This is what happens. Inflation. When you have more of something the value goes down, when that’s the dollar it takes more of them to buy the same stuff. The only people who actually believed “evil greedy CEOs are causing inflation” are partisan politics fetishists performing whatever mental gymnastics were asked so long as the dont have to admit various policy decisions of the last number of years may have been pretty bad ones She rejected the idea while covered in diamonds standing on the gold plated deck of a mega yacht I reject your reality and substitute my own. Companies will ALWAYS try to make as much money as possible if they can find the slightest reason. Inflation is definitely real and their costs are definitely rising but so are their profits and their margins and that’s the main problem. No shit Popped collar and pearls…damn she’s sexy… Take basic economics before commenting here please I wonder how much she was payed to say that in other words, rich assholes absolve each other of any blame. Yellen has been wrong before and has admitted as such… I’m sure taxing massive profits on companies couldn’t hurt. As well raising corporate taxes and lowering taxes on families making 300,000 and under would help a whole lot. This chicks a huge financial whore. Corporate lackey defends corporations. The problem is the corrupt ecosystem. Our politicians know they have divided us on social issues, Roe v Wage was the latest salvo to keep us divided, so now they can keep ruling us without any accountability. Yellen is a symptom and appointee of that corrupt ecosystem. Of fucking course[, and this comes RIGHT admitting she was wrong...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZozAmP9X1g) **Do not trust Janet Yellen. Do not trust these corpo hack bastards. Inflation is driven by greed and Biden could start fixing this tomorrow by signing an executive order to forcibly freeze further price increases and FINALLY adjusting the minimum wage against inflation.** Look at an M2 or Overnight Reverse Repo chart. The FED caused all of this. All of this is the FED’s fault. Well they pay less in taxes than they did 6 years ago and we funneled a billions to them during the pandemic, they also fired a lot of people, and prices are super high while they record record profits, so who’s to blame? Another statement of “we don’t know why inflation has happened “. Idiots in power and all that matters is that the rich stay rich while the general population is doing the work- think- Bezos, Musk and many others who make their castles on the backs of others hard work Jeez. I don't know much about much but one thing is clear: Janet Yellen is full of rubbish. Janet Yellen is an idiot Then Janet Yellen is an idiot. she looks like a five and dime shopper What ...the Head of The Fed says it not for the love of Bread? oof, this claim plus her claim we're no where near a recession. strap in folks, we're about to go down hard. in an unrelated story janet yellen doesn’t pay rent Blame your fucking government and governments around the world who impriosned their citizens for a virus with a 99% survival rate. Never let a good crisis go to waste. Corporations get together all the time to figure out ways to boost quarterly profits. To say that there not taking advantage of this one is pretty short sighted. From the light bulb industry to oil companies leverage is king. They all took PPP money wether they needed it or not and the feds bank sheet just ballooned. More money on the books means higher inflation rates. There are all responsible. We are all responsible. Americans are addicted to there cars and they are about to go through withdrawals and it’s going to get worse before it gets better. Her speaking fees are showing. Somebody fucking get her to retire....Jesus Janet Yellen refuses to speak ill of her owners and masters. Of course because she has literally taken millions in “speaking fees” aka BRIBES!!! 🖕 10000000% it is. The Fed is a conglomerate of banks masquerading as one single entity. It’s a huge scam. Audit the FED In addition to profit growth faster than inflation, remember that they pay the CEO before they report the profits. Yellin is just angling for future corporate board gigs. Well of course she does. I don't have a bone in the race but people keep mentioning record profits but is that comparing the value of the dollar now to the last quarter of big profits Bullshit This. Bitch. Honestly how fucking dare she?? That’s what you get when you let bunch of very old people run your country. You can reject something and it still be true. Sorry Janet. Well I mean clearly corporate greed has put us in the shit we’re in on pretty much all fronts. So fuck her. 💎🚀✋🤚 Are you fucking kidding me? On the heels of her apologizing for “misreading” the warning signs of rampant inflation, is she just totally ignoring any data that doesn’t fit her conclusions? Maybe government over spending Well, she admits herself that she's been wrong before on this inflation stuff. I wanna know who donates to her. If any large corporation that has a profit motive to get her to say something like this is donating to her, I’m auto distrusting her dem speaking fees bags 💰ain't lyin Imagine being this much of a corporate shill. Obviously there are more factors then just corporate greed. That said, ppl in this comment section saying that current inflation is not related at all to corporate greed are pretty dumb. This dumb shit idea was brought to you by the same idiots who thought trickle down economics would benefit everybody. Says the neoliberal supporting even wealthier neoliberals in their continued neoliberal pursuits. of course she does when she takes 400k payment for “speaking fees” at citadel conferences. how about her doing her job? sounds passive aggressive and blame shifting Lies!!! She’s lying- how can we ignore it? Awww go fuck yourself with this capitalist sycophantical bullshit. These old people are a problem. Ask her again once the lobbyists check bounces. Just keep kicking that can down the road. Because she's paid to ANd to combat inflation they want to cut wages. It is corporate greed. We’re still out here pretending Yellen isn’t just saying shit just to cover her ass? Great post for #nottheonion This chick was wrong about how bad the inflation would get. She’s not exactly Nostradamus. Fuck this bitch What a fuckin stooge. So full of shitz It is not obvious that corporate greed is the cause of inflation. That said, once there is already an environment of inflation, corporations know they can get away with increasing their prices more than usual. Shoot, I thought I liked J Yellen. Yellen looks like Gringott’s head goblin irl She’s full of shit “Corporate greed” is a buzzword that dipshits use when they don’t understand incentive structures. Janet Yellen is the worst sort public servant. Obviously corrupt, 100% willing to lie to the public to ""engineer"" an outcome; even if it harms future servant's ability to lead by degrading the public trust in the institution. Overtly corrupt by earning massive amounts of money directly from those institutions she's suppose to govern. When you think of corrupt people in Government she's gotta be a top 5 pick. Ohh ok…. 😠🙄 Then she’s an idiot! Very few economists will blame something they can’t chart or control. It’s an ideology at this point rather than a science. They can’t predict who will be a despicable CEO, or why a company will price gouge its employees so they will make up alternative excuses but as Jerome Powell has shown they are out of their element and want to blame high wages that they want to lower while dealing with a booming stock market for years, record profits and productivity, all with stagnant wages and record financial inequality. That's cuz they pay her to think Well…she is correct. The fed is the reason… I'm sure she's gotten it right *this* time... /S The efficient market folks are so blinded by ideology they can't see reality (or parse the data) no matter how clearly it tells a story. Asshole lies. Better title. What a cunt. K This sub is full of elitists I’m gonna say she’s very wrong Corporations are exploiting the *lack of regulation*. Endless lobbying has eroded regulation as technology simultaneously enabled capitalization of or time and the world's resources like never before. We are destroying the world along the tech frontier faster than law and political will can keep up. Businesses are only guilty of doing what they're designed to do. We the people guide morality through regulation. 75 years old! Get out of office! This cunt. The last article I saw with her face (a week or two ago) stated that she had been “wrong about inflation” before it jumped up so much… how is it that she is suddenly back on track and reliable once again? If corps raise the price of every product by 10% out of greed, isn‘t that basically like inflation? Suddenly the money you have in your bank account is worth less and buys you less? How isn‘t that inflation? As she stands the necks of workers Janet also said that she knew inflation wasn't going to be that bad. Why would Janet go and admit that the people she supers are greedy? Because she’s a corporate stooge. Title fix: Janet Yellen lies through her teeth for money. So now she’s backpedaling what she said huh that’s typical she was nothing but a corporate stooge anyway can’t trust her so putting money out in the peoples hands 68% went to corporations oil companies are making record profits refusing to open new refineries or open old or even existing contracts and pump more oil to keep the price up but yet she’s trying to say that it’s not corporate greed all right Jesus Christ they just love pissing right in our face and saying it’s Rain Damnit Janet When is this old bag gonna drop? Everything that comes out of her mouth is nonsense Of course she does, who do you think her real bosses are? The corporations. Next story this just in water is wet. Wall Street owns Yellen…. How much money did this lying bitch make from speaking engagements from hedge funds this year? Crazy that the rich don’t think the rich are the problem right? Thats because she is corporate greed Wouldn't be the first time she is wrong. She also didn’t see the financial crisis coming so maybe it’s time to replace her. Janet Yellen doesnt understand what ""inflation"" means to the average person. It doesnt mean litera cost of things going up, it is cost vs buying power. If my wage increases faster than inflation, i dont notice inflation so much. If my wage dowsnt increase for 30 years, I notice inflation strongly. This is caused by corporate greed, so Janet might be right but is also very very wrong. Pure gaslighting Has Janet Yellen every thought about trying blindfolded hola hoop in the middle of rush hour traffic? Well she was wrong before. INFLATION the name of their new Mega yacht. We’ll she’s hasn’t been wrong yet /s Alright this dipshit has long outstayed her welcome. Can we get anyone who’s not a geriatric fuck in charge of our fiscal policy? Corporate still denies corporate influence is at the root of our problems. I’m shocked I think she needs to retire before her last Brain cell gives it up And we’re all forced to live with other whatever ridiculous but she may have this time This dumb cunt A corporate puppet defends her masters Wow fuck her. She's not living in the real world. Or has whored herself to lobbyists to such an extent, she will say anything they tell her. Probably both. Their record profits are due to other things! The workers aren’t getting a share of those profits because they are lowly proletariat, or something like that /s [deleted] Breaking: Corporate shill shills for corporations! Hmmm, wonder how all of her houses are coming along…. She’s been right about everything so far 😑 Explain rising corporate profits then??? She is as dumb as she is old. Why is this bitch not serving time for what she has done to us?! I reject Janet Yellen. It was one thing to claim to be an Academic after being out of academia for over 30 years, but to blatantly contradict the majority of current research is sad and unbecoming of an administrator of her level. The same women taking corporations $$ for speaking fees. It's time we get these useless boomers out of office. #You'reFired She reminds me of my ex. Huge crush on her then we started dating… that really destroyed the pedestal I had her on. Wrong again She’s an idiot who said we wouldn’t have inflation last year She is not good at what she does. LMFAOOOOO Does she cut her own hair? It looks awful. Another old person who shouldn’t have a say in shit I am far from an expert but how can it not??? May not be solely but has to have some impact its not ""the cause"" but they surrrre are piling on it tho. I wonder who pays her to say that. Sounds like something Corporate Greed would say Yeah inflations transitory havent you heard??????? What’s your reason, Janet???? Is Janet a Sith lord? Just look at that god damn pic. It’s the Fed Reallllyyyyy????? Can the term ""Corporate Politician"" become a thing, please. Inflation is caused by the government spending in excess and printing more money than the natural rate of growth. Another bit of brilliant insight from the geriatric neoliberal boomer mindset. You heard it here guys, the rich don’t owe any of us anything despite stealing from the working class for decades. How stupid do these people honestly think we are Of course she does. Don’t bite the hand that feeds We should be yellen at janet, instead of janet yellen....just yellen$$🍌🍑 Janet is an idiot. She cannot bite the hand that feeds her Ah yes, everyone got $600 measly dollars, and that drove inflation. $600 won't pay rent for one month let alone most bills. Liar Corporate greed is the #1 destroyer of our country. Not sure why she's calling households pessimistic just because we are employed. Yes, people are employed and didn't get raises to offfset the inflation....prices just keep going up and up. Inb4 someone tells me to get a better job. I have a grad degree and still don't get paid what I'm worth like many other professions without unions. Markets prevent companies from charging more. Otherwise everything would be $1 million. Maybe after a few more rounds of stimulus it will be. Ok. Did she also say that it’s the federal reserve that’s responsible for creating inflation? She knows what’s going on. While corporate greed certainly is there, that is not he only reason for why Americans wallets are hurting. What a worthless article. Less facts than it could maintain my interest. That coat looks expensive. Thanks Biden. Yeah, but you guys printed trillions for the corps to use. You didn't see this coming? That’s because corps are not the source of inflation. It is always a monetary phenomenon. Maybe JPow shouldn’t have run the printer at full steam. So you’re all telling me the moment before inflation hit a good deal of companies didn’t jump on board to charge more just because they can? Of course everyone is paying more for their employees, shipping , cost of goods etc. I’m sure a huge amount of companies are legit being charged more & therefore must pass that onto customers. & yes corporate greed has always been around. But when was the last time we had a inflation ticking up slowly slowly slowly for over a year now. Not since Carter? & that the minute inflation warnings were near, many companies jumped aboard to raise prices just because they literally can & because others actually had to to stay afloat. Of course they weaseled price hikes in there. Yes. Janet needs to back pedal a bit. I bet she would disagree that corruption in the government is to blame as well. Great way to keep her footsteps clean 🙄 Holy crap!!! I finally agreed with something Janet Yellen said! I never once in my whole life thought this would happen. She actually understands that corporations have been greedy since the first one was ever made. It’s even in every corporations charter to make money. I thought that was something everyone understood that corporations are supposed to make as much money as they could. What’s next? Is Janet going to say the grass is green? As to inflation, there are a million factors impacting it. The biggest one is government borrowing and spending. I don’t care what the government spends the money on, that’s really irrelevant. It’s just the pure massive amounts of borrowing and spending that are the primary causes of inflation. Good thing she is on the peoples side Anybody who says ""corporate greed"" must have forgotten about the massive money printing we in 2020/21, which we did so we could keep people home and not working during a ""pandemic"" with a 99.9% survival rate among non-retired populations. This shit is entirely self inflicted and it has nothing to do with corporations (outside of perhaps pharma). Take some responsibility for this people. You bought into it. You gladly cash your $1200 check that literally everybody else got. That jacket makes her look like an extra from Michael Jackson’s Beat It video. Now everyone in this post is yellen at each other… How is this even a thought? If trillions of usd printed and free money thrown out as checks to everyone isn't the obvious culprit then we have completely lost our minds! **Inflation is always a monetary phenomenon.** Inflation is, was, and will always be a monetary phenomenon. Only the central bank is responsible for inflation. No one else. Sure. It's the FED that keeps printing money to buy shitty assets. Why the fuck are buying all of these assets in the first place? Who is pushing them to? What are their incentives? And who owns the FED that thinks this is a good idea? She got one thing right. I would say that consumer greed is to blame.. Because her, bernanke, and Powell propped up the economy for Wall Street firms by printing money for a decade plus? So it is then Who the fuck is Janet? She is sadly right, it's her fault for printing so much money. Corporations will charge whatever the price they can get that aligns with the social narrative that their services are being attached to. Why she look like a toad wearing pearls? I want to [REDACTED] and also [REDACTED] Janet Yellen The inflation is a combination of money printer go brrrrr and hesistance from the biden administration to raise the interest rates until very recently. US reduces fuel production after election while actively debasing its currency Bc “rona” as Demand continues to increase and some people are still baffled why shit got so expensive. Jesus….. Janet Yellen is to blame for inflation. This is the same person who was in charge of the economy on G.W. Bush. Considering corporations didn't suddenly get greedy and learned how to price gouge their customers last year, *something else* should be causing this. That’s it what BIDEN TOLD JIMMY KIMMEL Reddit is not gonna like this take Tell me she doesn’t look like an Oompa Loompa. US corporations regularly report their financial shape. If the greed thing (excessive profits) was happening, it would show up in their earnings. There’s no mystery to solve. It wouldn’t be in her best interest to agree…. As do I The idea that one variable is what leads to anything as complex as inflation is asinine. Corporate greed 100% contributes to inflation, as does supply chain disruptions, lower taxes with higher levels of inequality, and more. I did that! - Joe “Mama” Biden Well she’s a dildo They should have kept giving covid money to people instead of banks. OH wait, who runs the banks? Yellen fam. Greed is good. She stated while wearing a necklace of ping pong ball sized black pearls I think it’s time to take out the trash! She is so lousy and inept! Of course she rejects it she is part of the 1% elite class - none of these people give two cents about the rest of America yet they are in positions to make decisions that effect us all. She’s getting paid by someone to say that. Well when there only certain companies getting rich there was bound to be a recession I wonder why? /s She’s been right so far…… /s Uh How much are we paying these incompetent people in congress to do absolutely nothing? We are getting gouged while they sit on their asses collecting a pay check. Of course she would say that. She’s literally made millions speaking to banks and investment groups that profit off of this. https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/01/yellen-made-millions-in-wall-street-speeches-453223 Why is Janet Yellen always popping her collar? Target raised prices due to “inflation” then last week came out saying they would be lowering their prices because their sales slumped for several months. If the companies aren’t losing money at the old prices it is absolutely opportunistic and greedy to raise prices. And before anyone says it losing money is not the same as making slightly less profit. This ad paid for by corporate greed can someone explain how she hasn’t been invaded or looked into for probable corruption/bribery? And you are a fool, Janet. They started this with the fake shipping/distributing issue then piled it on to make up for the losses during Covid. Why would she accept the idea that makes her and her buddies richer Of course she does? Admitting that is only biting the hands that have been feeding her for a half century. Let the old hag continue to pretend we’re all fooled by her ruse because she dumb. I mean...cmon... Ok, boomer. Yellen acknowledged that profit margins are going up but blames supply n demand for inflation. No shit it’s supply and demand which allows the corps to gouge consumers. Definite no shit Sherlock moment. They printed too much damn money Because corporations gave her money to say that. Of course lmfao 80 yo bitch, no Ida how things move Because corporate greed controls the entire economy? There are no safety nets. Everything is about to fall apart ""Go Home Janet Yellen, You're Drunk"", a story of love, loss, and corporate greed. Lol I’m here to laugh at all of the people who idiotically believe that corporations are causing inflation Then why is gas at the pump higher than previous highs but the price per barrel is lower than previous highs. There's obviously some games being played at the refinery and wholesale level. Current pump price does not make any sense at all. Not that Yellen said 7 rate hikes and caused market panic, and then had to talk back her ham handed comments when she was Fed Chair. Not that when asked about selling off the balance sheet, she didn't even want to touch that question when she was chair. She's incompetant and dangerous, and a yes-woman. IMHO. This I cannot necessarily agree with. We know that psychopathy and greed is responsible for some of it because there have been super wealthy businessman who have openly stated they’re capitalizing on inflation. There was actually even a man who was captured making snide remarks, mocking millenials and saying “ha ha ha they’re going to go to the store and not be able to buy what they want” and was basically taking pleasure in the misfortune of that generation, when he himself was a late boomer or early X and was far more affluent overall. And he was a multi millionaire. Who says something like that? She’s been wrong before and she’s wrong now. Probably to her advantage Both her and Biden are either incredibly stupid or liars. It isn’t all corporate greed but there is some to be sure. Corporate greed may not be to blame for the large majority but ignoring it certainly was on her. Can’t read the whole thing because of paywall. But I saw that she’s “amazed” at how “pessimistic households are.” It’s always the consumer’s fault. Lol. Economic crisis? It’s because people are buying too much, or not enough, and demanding higher wages so they can afford to live. It’s our capitalistic, materialistic culture that pushes us to buy everything. So demand outpaced supply while we were all sitting at home miserable from a pandemic with orange man as our President. Is it that surprising? Now rich people are just mad because their investments are losing money. Life since 2016 has just been shit, and they’re blaming us for the economy. Fuck off. I am pessimistic. Look what’s going on in this fucking country right now. What reason do I have to be optimistic? I guess corporations just decided to randomly get greedy in the year 2022 when they’ve had hundreds of years.. hmmm y’all are clowns if you think that. They’ve been greedy! I mean it’s pretty clear corporations never engaged in greedy practices until Joe Biden became the president Yeah okay like hell it isn’t The elite mystify finance and the economy. They do this because they a demon possessed/inspired, there is literally a demon who’s function is greed. These evil rulers in dark places have infiltrated all areas of government world wide. The solution is obvious to me, make more things Americans need here in the USA. It should be a ban on imports for 5 to 10 years while we rebuild. But that’s too much like right. The powers that been a looking to mess up things so bad that only Jesus returning can save us. The elite mystify finance and the economy. They do this because they are demon possessed/inspired, there are literally demons and unclean spirits who’s function is greed. These evil rulers in dark places have infiltrated all areas of government world wide. The solution is obvious to me, make more things Americans need here in the USA. It should be a ban on imports for 5 to 10 years while we rebuild. But that’s too much like right. The powers that be have been a looking to mess up things so bad that only Jesus returning can save us. It’s definitely fueling it in gas prices! On the flip side, a company looks at your wallet and says it costs that much. Real Econ 101 You don't give people enough credit. ""Money printer go brrrrrrrr"" was a huge meme when the stimulus checks were being sent out. [deleted] Please, we need to label slime like this as ""Corporate Politican"" so everyone knows they are directly working against the American people and for corporations. Yea, that’s what you get when a government is telling you things cost more because companies just refuse to “lower their costs” AND THEN, they buy it anyway like idiots. Vote with your dollars. It’s the purest democracy left. This is more true for capitalists. They’ll go and buy a building for 2x what it’s worth and beg that they aren’t charged taxes on that same value they paid. Any amount they pay is too much And corporations look at the individuals wallet and says, “let me see that and give you back how much I think you should have.” My wife does the same thing with my wallet. When I do this, ill look at my dollar bills and think of how much value my money truly has, I think about how much total money there must be in the world. Then I wonder who decides how much money there is and how do you come to that number. I dont have the faintest idea of what the answers to these questions might be, nor do I know if that's even the right way of thinking about money to begin with, but my point is that neither does anyone else. The concepts of money aren't very intuitive for most people beyond the basics. Sure I have a bill that says $20 on it, but what does that mean? Sometimes it means I can buy a tank of gas, but in other countries it means I can buy a house. It's all so complicated that I just have to trust in others to be experts in their field to give me accurate information about how to be financially responsible, which can sometimes be a precarious position to find oneself in. This is America. They look at their wallet and what the price is and if the price is too high they go “I’ll finance that shit”. This is true, and most can only think in millions at most. They think this is a lot of money. They don’t understand how much more a billion is. Beyond this, there is this focus on attacking people with no money taking from the system or abusing it. I’m willing to bet that if you took all the poor people cheating the system and added this up. Then you took every single business big or small that abused the system, and added up this total. I’m almost positive the business side would be staggeringly higher. Who cares about pennies comparatively? This chick also says this wearing pearls and a perfect white outfit that probably costs more than you make in a week. But when companies are breaking record profits, its definitely corporate greed. They can stomach eating less than before or even a loss but they won't. It’s still worth saying for everyone who doesn’t, however, like 90% of the people commenting in this sub. [deleted] Economics is not an exact science and ideology colors a lot of what an economist believes and says. You can be extremely educated and extremely wrong most of the time, Milton Friedman is a great example. There's essentially nothing of value in his entire body of work yet millions treat him like some kind of oracle. Same with Austrian economics, the most comically inadequate and blindly followed group of ""scientists"" in the history of this planet. Don’t worry she’ll admit it in about a month or so. With that said companies are absolutely gouging the fuck out of everyone she clearly has an understanding of who's going to pay her speaking fees after Biden's one term Unlike many of the socialist posters here and r/economics If she had that, how would she get paid from her self interests? This lady has caviar on her toast, not butter… she does know where the speaking fees that pay for said caviar come from… It’s also true though. Everyone thinking oil companies are gouging gas prices have no idea what they’re talking about. The toast is burnt Corporate greed is responsible for capitalism. It’s not some recent phenomenon that started a few months ago causing gas prices to spike. She just hasn’t realized companies weren’t greedy before 2022. They were all pretty egalitarian up until this year. Because she is correct? This Econ is wrecked, over printing, low unemployment rate. High demand of goods, a lot of competition for same goods, shortage of some goods keep prices high. Firms benefit by not producing and allowing prices to rocket. Wrecked for sure. People stopped buying homes with these higher interest rates and loans became harder to get. The seesaw just keeps moving. Nothing is stable. Food weight is decreasing in containers at the grocery store. The hag also said inflation was temporary. Of course she is! But do her tastebuds even work? Both sides? Of course it was shutdowns but it was a lot of things. Trying to play Hide the Ball with US stimulus is a silly game. NGDP soared; cash got put into pockets of consumers; household net worth went up, debt burdens went down, nominal wages grew at the highest MPC portion of the income distribution, and composition of demand crowded into actually available sectors of consumer G&S (ie newly inelastic goods supply chains). Energy reversed from it’s totally unsustainable 2010s model that was anchored by the deflationary pressure of loss-making West Permian shale. In retrospect hawks were right and fiscal could have been smaller; but I don’t think this inflation will become self-reinforcing, and it was probably better for at least one country to overshoot it than us to replay the post 08 script. Though the degree to which the incoming monetary policy moves wreck the EMs will temper that statement going forward I think it’s gas prices. Same thing happened with the housing crisis. The economy was fucked long before the shutdowns. Did they play a part to accelerate us to where we are though? Absolutely. Oil companies have record profits. Try harder next time. Right. It’s got nothing to do with the fact corporations and CEOs are making massive gains at the expense of the working class. /s So your argument is basically: “Your life was already gonna suck, therefore it doesn’t matter that they made it even worse.” That’s stupendous logic you’re operating on there. The US government itself doesn’t have money, they spend our tax dollars. It’s not so much about people expecting different from companies and more people expecting (hoping) that government bodies hold them ethically responsible for shady practices like price gauging by blaming inflation. When a company records record profits but still raises prices or cuts wages, we should expect alarm bells to go off in public and political spheres. The outrage is at the combination of unethical corporate behaviour and complete inaction from public representatives & institutions. People expect value and progress for fucks sake. Everyone seems to forget the fact that were supposed to move forward, companies dont exist just to provide goods for us to consume for the sake of it. We go an atmosphere to clean, a whole continent of people to elevate out of collective poverty caused by colonialism ad slavery of the past, we got planets to colonize and seafloors to map, particles to smash and mathematics to discover. We have to elevate our species and become interplanetary, we have new philosophies to invent. We have lots of shit to do. And heres you and 70% of the rest of the world proudly saying „ugh of course everyone just wants more money“ is that literally what you think human existence amounts to? Consuming? Money is just supposed to be a convenient vehicle for us to achieve all of these things. People have a general sense of fair play, and when they perceive that it’s gone too far one way they get mad. Firms across all sectors talk about labor, difficult cost environment, etc. and people are largely willing to say “yeah, I get it, things cost more”. Up until they gleefully mention significant margin growth. And that’s there point where people say “hold on, I accepted the first price increase for good reasons, but now you sound greedy”. At that point they’re viewed like a war profiteer. Maybe we should do something about that because resources are finite? That’s extremely short sighted to just be ok with that like it’s something we should just accept as natural. It’s not. In the natural world that’s called cancer It’s but a single ingredient in this toxic stew. Too much fiscal stimulus didn’t cause inflation… on the other hand too much monetary stimulus … Firms charge what the market will bear. I don't get how there are so many commenters patting themselves on the back saying that she is wrong or out of touch for saying this. Were firms *not* greedy when the annual rate of inflation was under 2%? Are consumers greedy when they search for cheap prices? Ask her if she thinks PPP and other pandemic stimulus policies primarily benefitted company owners who did not need the assistance, and they might be surprised to hear that she likely agrees that these policies did. They might also be surprised to hear that she does not credit ""great resignation"" complaints on conservative local news outlets as reflecting reality or a significant driver of inflation. [deleted] Yes, cant read the full article but there seems to be a lack of balance in regulations. What industries other than basic materials and oil are posting record profits? The entire retail sector is getting completely slammed by input cost inflation. Target and Walmart, for instance, just warned of huge margin declines and saw their stock decline by 20-39% as a consequence. Tech sector being taken to the wood chipper too. Major companies like Facebook, Google and others are pausing new hiring initiatives precisely because their profits are under pressure and margins are declining. The narrative of “record corporate profits” is a political talking point and falsely assumes the entire American corporate world moves in lockstep (as if corporate America is some monolith), and even absent the ignorance that narrative belies even the idea it represents is 12 months outdated. Weird that companies decided to be greedy at the same time right after M2 increased by 50% Most industries aren’t posting record profits and it’s only going to get worst. Downvote me to oblivion but it’s the truth Why are they only greedy now? Did they raise prices by 1-2% from 2009 to 2018 out of the goodness of their hearts? Newsflash - all companies increase margin when they can. Supplier price changes often present a chance to do so Inflation literally means all numbers are going up (because value of currency is going down). Revenue: 20, Total Costs: 10, Profit: 10 20% YoY inflation Revenue: 24, Total costs: 12, Profit: 12 12 > 10. Record profits. Literally half this country can't do basic math it's unbelievable how rich these idiots are compared to equivalently talented people in the developing world. [deleted] ""Austerity for thee, none for me."" I used to think Yellen had good sense. Now I realize it's just institutional elitism. Inflation make profits to be overestimated. This is accounting 101. Also the commodities business is in a boom right now. Not only those companies can but the also MUST post record high profits, as their businesses is highly cyclical and the moving average of profits is way lower over the long term. They must prepare for the winter. This is commodities 101. Last but not least, all the companies are always aiming to charge the highest price for their products and services that the market will bear. It is just impossible for all companies to become suddenly ""even more greedy"" and them all raise prices without losing a lot of volume, in a way that the price incrase don't pay off, if we have stable and sound monetary policy. The only way that a general and persistent overall price increase can happen in an economy is by an increase in the money supply. Just look at the M2, it is scary as hell. The FED caused it with ultra-dovish monetary policy. This is inflation 101. It’s absolutely ridiculous how people think “oil companies make money when price of oil is high” = price gouging. It’s just so so stupid and shows a lot of ignorance. What companies? Retail, tech, etc are way down this year Longtime stalker, 1st time responder: https://www.mysanantonio.com/business/article/Billionaire-Supermarket-Owner-Warns-Food-Prices-16543125.php “Why give away something when you don’t have to give it away and you make more margin?” Catsimatidis asked. “So I think that now these companies are going to have record profits in the third quarter.” Edit to add: How is the above reference not corporate greed? Could companies be posting record profits... because of inflation? [us markets oil&gas sector](https://simplywall.st/markets/us/energy/oil-gas/exploration-production) **july 2019** revenue: 1.4T$ profits: 90B$ profits/revenue: 6.42% **june 2022** revenue: 1.7T$ profits: 116B$ profits/revenue: 6.82% (no inflation adjusted) **BELIEVE MEDIA, TRUST POLITICIANS, OBEY MANTRAS** Ok. Tell me what a corporation does with record profits? Where does the money go? And why is I bad? Tell me the bad and we can solve that problem. A c corp is a piece of paper and not the issue. Their owner is. How about this…. Fuck C corps. 0% tax. Make them all pass through. And then make passive income taxed as ordinary. Your comment is just blatant misinformation. I’m just glad corporations haven’t been greedy before 2021. Prices could have been so much worse so much earlier. That’s not entirely true. The main driver of inflation in energy prices now. If you look at country’s were they stoped the money printing and increased interest rates to stop or slow the process down it didn’t help. CZ has interest rates of about 5.5 percent and still suffer from the same inflation rates as before. One thing is monetary inflation the other is product price inflation. The monetary inflation comes from printing money and the product price inflation has many originators. One of them is energy cost. Isn’t the dollar quite strong right now? Runaway printing has been a problem forever but has gotten so bad in the past decades I literally can’t fathom a world in which the US government actually even thinks about stopping it without laughing at the thought first. It’s crazy how the printing didn’t cause inflation for a really long time then all the sudden it did when other things happened. Yes it is. Shame I had to scroll so far for a quality comment. You have no grasp on finance. Money printing causing inflation is made up. The government does not print money like you think it does. Please do your research. lol! Just noticed that She must be smart, not connected. /s That’s not absurd for someone with her background and age. If anything be worth “only” $20m is credit to not being corrupt. Huh are your sure? Because bloomberg says nothing causes it, and that it’s too complicated for us to understand. I’m not sure how anyone can possibly believe corporate greed isn’t a massive problem and the root of our inflation. Pay is the lowest it’s ever been in country and the cost of living has been woefully under represented. We pay more than ever while making less than ever. How else can you explain that other than corporate greed? A decade of cheap Ubers and Lyfts, while silicon valley hemorrhaged cash flow to ""build scale and market share"" doesn’t work that way. brandon will come and take all the credit when inflation drops 0.1% Greed is something corporations just discovered few months ago. they didn’t know what it was till last years /s Yes, the you gain a monopoly after forcing out competitors. Then the price is whatever you say it is, the game is quite simple. And prices always decrease when companies have a monopoly over an industry. /s I do believe they are increasing the greed. It’s reflected in CEO to worker pay, buy backs, and dividends. In the 1980s when one income could comfortably support a family, many blue collar workers made the equivalent of 50 dollars an hour in spending power today. Wages against GDP is at a 70 year low. Yes. More greed. They were just as greedy in periods of deflation as they are now (in times of inflation). But recently we do not have periods of deflation. Central banks effectively ""protect us"" against the depreciation of goods and services. Mostly, yeah. I’d say it’s COVID, war, money supply, and greed; in that order. There are multiple supply and logistics shitstorms going on right now, mostly stemming from COVID and the war in Ukraine. There’s also a whole lot of money in the system right now - leftover from 15 years of loose monetary policy followed by unprecedented stimulus. That means loads more cash chasing fewer goods. Finally there are definitely some companies being greedy because the situation is allowing it. This is more a symptom than a cause, but unfortunately it creates a feedback loop of increasing prices until people can’t pay any more. (Which we are just starting to see in retail sales.) Literally every democrat and the president. Google it. It’s sad. Best response - Corporations simply take advantage of the current enabling conditions. more like last 9 months. Yeah won't anyone protect the poor companies and billionaires? Citizens don't vote to change laws lol. We vote to elect officials to vote on laws for their constituents but thanks to donations and lobbying it turns out corporations also get the ability to influence the laws of the land rather effectively. Ah yes what an equal playing field we all live in, people are eating out of the dumpster at an all you can eat buffet. CEO salaries are at an all time high, the buying power of a workers wages at an all time low. But sure keep believing the 1% that them acquiring wealth like a dragon is what is best for the economy. The billionaires are doing just fine, you don't need to defend them on Reddit. You can’t fix a broken system within the system if you could they’d just not let you vote ...Because the billionaires and corporations RUN SHIT We are the United Corporations of America at this point. Corporations own politicians who cater to their will. I can’t stand people who deny corporations are the ones making politicians and changing laws at this point. Remember when Delta got the quarantine rules changed? https://news.delta.com/delta-asks-cdc-consider-latest-scientific-data-shorten-covid-19-isolation-period Voting is mostly a ritual where we endorse the candidates and positions the ruling class has selected for us. Every election cycle candidates lie about what they will do and then fail to follow through, and because there are only two parties and they both do the same bullshit, there are no consequences for this. There's no mechanism within American democracy to push back against this situation, because voting is bark with no bite. You need people to be willing to organize and actually fuck shit up materially for the ruling class in order for them to respect the will of the people. Sir, this is a finance sub. You’re looking for r/politics. They pay her because she was chairman of the fed. The highest one can go in her field. She was fired for not being dovish enough or for being a woman. Maybe both. I am not really sure. [deleted] End the FED. Do you think that company payroll is recorded after profits are released?? I’d really like to know your accounting processes. Maersk made as much in the last year as they did the 10 years before. Because they take a percentage profit, not a flat amount. When demand goes up and supply goes down, it’s not just the cost of the goods and the labor that go up; the owner class also think they deserve more than before. That's a question that's too technical for many to wrap their heads around it seems. People just see a big number without thinking about the actual value of it. If my yearly salary doubles, but everything costs over twice as much now I'm not doing any better, in fact I may be doing worse. Imagine someone telling you your a greedy asshole for wanting a raise. She makes her money from “speaking engagements” to large banks and financial institutions. This is a huge conflict of interest ignored by the government. Not-tramdus Water is actually not wet; It makes other materials/objects wet. Wetness is the state of a non-liquid when a liquid adheres to, and/or permeates its substance while maintaining chemically distinct structures. So if we say something is wet we mean the liquid is sticking to the object.   What did one ocean say to another? Nothing, it just waved. She's one of the best Economists of our time. She correctly predicted the housing crisis, had one of the most accurate forcasts for economic indicators during her time at the FED, and was a Professor at Harvard. Lol maybe look up her background. >I am far from an expert but how can it not??? It’s a combination of an increase in the money supply, supply issues left over from COVID, and the war in Ukraine. >May not be solely but has to have some impact Literally none at all. It’s a dumb conspiracy theory. Well, if you're in the US and pay taxes, you did... I’m not being paid and I’m saying it. Too many people have no idea how economics works, you included. Yeah transitory over a period of years. They had made that clear from the get go. You’re forgetting about the quantitative easing. Stimulus checks are a very small part of the increase in the money supply, relatively. It’s not the $1200 checks that were the issue. That did real good to prevent people from starving. It’s the PPP loans that were supposed to be used by small business to pay people to stay home that ended up in the hands of Walmart who kept people working. But that’s nothing compared to the billions in bonds we just recently stopped buying. Those bonds infused business with cash leading to a burnout stock market that ran till last fall. Lastly, covid is a real pandemic. COVID’s biggest strain on healthcare wasn’t the 5.9% mortality rates, which are significantly worse than the last big pandemic 1918 flu at 3%. The biggest strain on the system was going months at a time where densely populated areas had zero beds. If you needed surgery in June 2020, you might not see a doctor for a while. Then there’s the other effects, namely the halt of the global shipping system which is still clogged on backlog, trickledown being solved in the 70s by making debt easier to get into, rent going up due to corporate VRBO land grabs, 08 being solved by letting houses rot and printing money and Russia invading Ukraine leading gas companies to price gouge while people ignore the actual rising price of food. Tl;dr $1200 checks were good. Fed buying bonds,ppp, shipping halt, trickledown, gas gouging and food are bad. Covid is real And a popped collar to boot. Company looks at Yellen, that doesn't cost much at all! >On the flip side, a company looks at your wallet and says it costs that much. Not entirely true. A company also looks at their competition and what prices they are offering for similar products as yours. Healthy competition is key to a well functioning capitalist economy. The real problem here is that America has let way too many monopolies and duopolies and oligopolies thrive even when they have engaged in blatant anti-competitive practices. That's the real root cause of so many issues plaguing America today. That and the supply chain crisis plaguing the global trade. Yep, you don't bid the job, you bid the customer. „˙ɥɔnɯ ʇɐɥʇ sʇsoɔ ʇı sʎɐs puɐ ʇǝllɐʍ ɹnoʎ ʇɐ sʞool ʎuɐdɯoɔ ɐ 'ǝpıs dılɟ ǝɥʇ uO„ R/im14andthisisdeep Money printer do be brrrrrrrrrrrrring though >Please, we need to label slime like this as ""Corporate Politican"" so everyone knows they are directly working against the American people and for corporations. I think that was more about the Fed pumping billions into the stock market to keep it from collapsing. I’m pretty sure they did the stimulus checks so the essential workers would not have an uprising aka the workers “W-well the government stopped giving stimulus checks, why is there still unemployment” https://youtu.be/GI7sBsBHdCk as relevant as ever If the rising tide floats all boats, the tide maker can pay some fucking taxes Tldr? That’s too many words for most of the population >small L liberal The L is always small lol Tell me you don’t understand economics without telling me you don’t understand economics. That is difficult when money is introduced from the top (banks). [deleted] [deleted] I’m sure you’re qualified to say that a Nobel prize winner has provided “nothing of value.” to be this dismissive of friedman betrays a total lack of familiarity with his body of work (or why he actually won the nobel). friedman's notoriety with the general public stems from a history of ideologically driven lecturing in a relatively non-academic context, but he was an incredibly serious and prolific academic economist and provided a tremendous amount of value to the field, importantly in ways that are widely accepted and have zero ideological bent (e.g., theories on consumption smoothing, work on monetary policy which continues to influence central bank policymakers, etc.) [deleted] Two things can be true. No matter the current level of greed/“gouging” it is simply not a primary driver of inflation. What do you mean after? Wall St paid her six or seven million in speaking fees in 2021 Six figure speaking fees, paid by Wall St. No conflict of interest there. sir, sir, it's sexist to imply that a woman cannot make money working in her field sir. are you telling me the richest, most powerful corporations would 'pay' the secretary of the treasury obscene amount of money when she's in between gigs to gain favor with her when she's in power? Let’s be real Katie porter and Elizabeth warren are Ivy League educated. They understand economic theory but say what what is politically advantageous. Sad that this has 1/10th the upvotes as the comment you’re responding too. Oil companies have, without a doubt, seized on the current inflationary environment to increase margins above and beyond what the cost environment demanded. There have been legitimate Econ 101 levels of supply and demand fluctuations that have had significant impacts on oil/gas prices. OPEC, Russia/Ukraine situation, domestic extraction levels, actual usage rebounding from pandemic lows, etc. The idea that they’re “gouging” is largely semantic. But in their own investor calls they’ve gleefully commented on significant margin improvements. They didn’t just pass on costs. They passed on costs plus enough to have huge increases in net profits. That’s gouging and greed to the consumers who don’t benefit from it and just end up paying more at the pump. Whats happening with gas prices? As someone who has yet to find any blatantly solid information online, I really am curious as to the actual reason they’re so insanely high. Every reason I’ve seen seem obvious but someone else comes back and says its wrong, so whats going on? Well just our side of the toast is burnt. She burnt my Krabby patty. You got toast? Capitalism is just what you get when you allow people to make voluntary, consensual agreements and participate in voluntary, consensual interactions. Government favors to corporations is not capitalism. I like it, but it IS capitalism that drives greed, and it has gotten worse over the last half century. And for others on here, the profit imperative at the center of capitalism is what is causing what is being called “gouging” because companies are raising prices in excess of their cost of production. It ain’t good and I’m disappointed in Yellen—I thought she had some integrity. r/usernamechecksout They know the people are close to eating cake too. You can tell by how they don’t try to hide their actions anymore. Shutting down the workforce created scarcity and pent up demand, which drove the prices up for pretty much everything. People don’t understand that a factory might need a month to catch up after a 24hr shutdown, let alone the years it would take for an entire industry to catch up after a global shutdown. The interdependent nature of global supply chains make it even more difficult to get back up and operating. Additionally, we didn’t get the same workforce back that we left off with. People close to retirement took it as their cue, and others just got used to different lifestyles that didn’t involve going into the workplace. All in all it creates a situation where, whether you want to buy a jet ski or a can of Pepsi, there are less to go around between you and the other buyers so prices go up due to scarcity. Already your money has lost its purchasing power. QE exasperated it, no doubt, but this current bout of inflation is not a naturally occurring part of our economy. out of curiosity, what makes you say that economy was fucked even before the shutdowns? They actually just “put it on credit”. Taxes you pay don’t actually fund the federal government at all. Deficit Spending is just simply saying we’ve created more money supply than was removed from the market. This is why you hear MMT folks say that deficit spending is a good thing. It creates more monetary velocity (not specifically starting that as my opinion, just paraphrasing what I often hear). In theory, during a govt surplus, we’re still issuing treasury bonds… we’re just removing more money supply from the market than we’re issuing. So the spending is still “on credit”, but the surplus just indicates we’ve cut the federal budget to such a degree that we’re putting less on credit than we are removing from the market. This implies that this situation is deflationary, but it’s not exactly 1:1, as I understand it. Basically… nobody really knows shit and we just have to use the best data we have available to deal with what’s happening, at any given moment. That hasn’t been true for decades. /u/thename_bigusdickus is right. Why do you think companies only just suddenly became greedy in the last year or so? We don’t live in commie utopia-land. We need to stop electing morons who don’t understand basic economics and spend $ like a coked out stripper with a credit card. Nah if it was anything it was definitely fiscal. Between all the stimulus packages - not just ARP. When combined with suppressed outlays leading to a rapidly unwinding elevated amount of cumulative savings + demand composition abnormally skewed towards goods —> slammed into more inelastic supply chains (due to pandemic) across key goods. Then general disorder as the disruption propagated out QE just an asset swap, probably inflationary under large budget deficits but not as powerful as putting cash in the pockets of consumers Energy markets largely a separate story (collapse of West Permian shales previous business model) Stimulus to consumers at least gets spent, keeps the economy going, and spurs growth which combats inflation. Stimulus to support stock markets like the Fed creating $5 Trillion to buy securities which creates exponentially more money without causing any economic growth has a greater inflationary effect, not to mention benefiting the wealthy much more than direct stimulus benefited the average American There's nothing wrong with pragmatic self interest, but it's obvious that the pandemic and the subsequent government response facilitated a massive wealth transfer from middle class to the super rich. The inflation is just the icing on the cake, eroding what's left of middle class savings while a record number of new billionaires reap the rewards of corporate power. Regulators should do their job and rein in corporations to stop screwing consumers, who they exist to protect. I'm starting to feel like the entirety of reddit got Eternal Septembered when the GME fiasco happened. Not that this website was some great hubs for intellectuals before - it did produce TheDonald, after all - but every popular subreddit has now sunk to the lowest possible denominator of populist stupidity. People have no concept of how markets work, or what a supply shock is, or even why certain jobs require certain degrees, but they've convinced themselves that they understand how the world works because they watched a Martin Scorsese movie one time. Idk. I'm sure niche hobby subreddits are still useful. The fishing subreddits can probably recommend a good tackle to buy. But every political-adjacent or finance-adjacent subreddit has sunk to the level of how teenagers reason about the world. And yet you’re offering nothing related to the field of finance, just commiserations and hand wringing on how “it’s sad” that the sub is overrun with mainstream (generally accepted interpretations of the truth) views? I’m still green when it comes to financial stuff, could you explain why she’s correct Look at the industrial sector across the us. These stores have shifted much of their product to online sales, and thusly the industrial sector has exploded with profitability. Target and Walmart are major players, but there are a lot of companies turning record profits. I have seen hundreds of income statements over the last two years first hand and nearly all of them have had 25-40% higher profit since 2020. Both Walmart and especially Target have had immense success the last several years and both came out of the pandemic without he slightest speed bump. I’m so sick of sympathy being had towards mega corporation with billions in revenue anytime they run into hardships. I fucking live in hardships and they don’t seem to give a fuck, so why should I care if they have a bad quarter or two? Why should the government pander to them because they those poor CEOs could break records in profits year over year over year? You’re full of shit. Iirc the costs of goods like meat is increased by ad much as it did partially due to material costs, but really due to corporate greed and lack of competition Inflation is ever and always a monetary supply issue. If companies were really price-gouging customers then there would be a lucrative opportunity for competition to jump in and undercut them. No...just industries that have the ability to fuck around. So far no one has stepped forward to make them find out unfortunately. So we are seeing record profits in oil, tech, banks (mostly through massive fucking over of the housing market (knock knock, 2008 says to stop stealing its look)), some massive retail chains as they find how much they can soak up (as we have recently seen with Target that might be declining...if you don't know, Target has raised their prices like 30%(estimated) but now says they are cutting prices which people are guessing will be like 10%), and some fast food. Fast food exploded during the pandemic as most people didn't want to eat in restaurants but thought drive thru was OK but fast food has always been a shit job so they have been struggling to staff so at least they have an ""excuse"" to raise their prices. Every other business is just like ""Fuck you. Give me money."" You're really gonna compare 1-2% to 8-9%? Inflation rose 6.9 % from 2020 to now. Most people would be fine if it was just a 6.9% increase but you and I both know thats not what happened. The real problem would be profit margin. If the products cost is correlated with inflation, and prices rise proportionally, then profit margin would stay constant. No one says profits shouldn't be up but if a company is posting profit double inflation thats the problem So, you're adding $4 to the revenue when the cost went up $2. Why did you do that? Woudn't covering inflation raise the revenue to $22? You're adding undeserved revenue. Are corps responsible for inflation? NO. But if it was just inflation I'd think people wouldn't be complaining as much. A lot of things have gone up a lot more than 6.9% since 2020 Oil is not included in my thought because to me only the saudis control the price of oil It’s almost like food prices have gone up a ton. So you’re saying that companies should just sell everything at a loss? then it should only be a 6.9% increase over 2020 not the massive amount now and we killed energy production here in US to cause inflation? awesome solar will save us all, in 2040 Other countries don’t have the reserve currency. In relation to other weak fiat currencies. Has your personal purchasing power gone up or down? If down, then the dollar is weaker. In the last 2 years 80% of all dollars in circulation have been printed. That's what has happened. It didn't take decades to fuck this thing up, the government is speed running this catastrophe. Why? So that the public becomes dependent on the government, that way they're indisposable. 'printing money' and M2 growth are not one in the same. The money printing you refer to that did not lead to inflation (QE 1,2 and 3) never really made it into the economy. It sat on bank balance sheets. When the Fed government starts sending checks directlt to consumers that's where you get the M2 explosion and inflation. Because more than 50% of all money ever printed was printed in the last two years. It isn't printing money that's the issue, it's the quantity and speed at which it was printed and released to the economy [removed] Cheap Chinese junk was deflationary. It covered for us. Trade war. Covid. Rising labor costs in China. Energy costs. World changed. Inflation came to play. That’s why they call it transitionary. They hope for the cheap labor imports to come back. most reddit crowd is young and dumb and listens only what liberal media puts out there. Strong bootstraps A politician to have 20 million in the bank is absurd. There is too much money in politics. Everyone has a price, including this bitch. Because we really need you to be convinced you can do nothing about it so that you don’t try or revolt, or complain or vote. Please don’t vote for socialism. It’s your fault by the way. Have more children, shut up. Because not a single thing you said is true. We are not paying more than ever for things, wages are higher than they have ever been (even adjusted for inflation) You just get your world news from reddit and haven’t a clue Corporate greed can be a problem and not the cause of inflation. However, The mechanisms causing Inflation are definitely making corporate greed more noticeable. Exactly Only if your business plan works. Otherwise you just spend a lot of money giving away cheap goods or services and end up with a bankrupt company or a market that is still competitive. Gotta hit those MFs with an anti trust. Monopolies are bad. Hit the nail on the head. More money chasing fewer goods so of course prices are being pushed up. Agree all around! Why would she do that when she made $7.2 million from those who benefited from those conditions? Changing those conditions would only benefit the group of ppl who pay her $221k annual salary. Doesn’t make sense for her to piss off the people who pay her the most money. I mean everything I've learned about the 2008 crisis shows that corporations created the conditions that they took advantage of through regulatory capture. apparently we have a good number of ‘down and out’ millionaires browsing today We can vote and we have low voter turnout. It’s our right to vote and we should. Focusing on the terrible outcomes of the system we’ve created is the problem. We need to focus on the source not the symptoms. Or depending on where you live they'd gerrymander their way into not letting your votes count...oh wait because ppl vote from their emotions, not from their brains. most ppl are too brainwashed by corrupt media to think straight. This is the problem. We focus on what the billionaires have not what they do that affects our laws. Do you think those two things are mutually exclusive? Yes. No one in government has anything worth hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of things to say for an hour. It’s one of the most blatant bribe tactics we just let happen because public ain’t gunna do shit either way. Please tell me you're being obtuse on purpose. Otherwise... Damn... I feel bad for anyone who has to interact with you. Not what I said Income>Expenses>Including payroll>reported profits They’re being blamed for inflation. They’re not the cause at all. There was never a real 5.9% mortality rate. Once our inept public health system figured out how to count they figured out very quickly that it was less than 1%. Come on. In the US, the absolute worst hit country, there have been 1M deaths out of (estimated by the CDC, if you understand the difference between viral burden and case counts) 340M infections. And that isn't all the work of vaccines, since half of those infection occurred before the vaccines existed and with the deadlier strain of the virus. There was a brief period that *some* hospitals, in *some* cities were overrun. That did not happen everywhere. The ""pandemic"", while of course real, virally, was made significantly worse by an irrational fear response set by our gerontocracy because it primarily threatened our gerontocracy. They printed tons of money and scattered it to the wind and now they are doing everything they can to not take credit for the inflation they caused. I will agree with you that the PPP was heavily abused and generally unnecessary as well. But that isn't corporate greed, that's governmental stupidity. Even dumb corporations take free money when it is just handed out. What could a banana cost Yellen, 10 dollars? I actually would not be surprised at this point. ""The real problem here is that America has let way too many monopolies and duopolies and oligopolies thrive even when they have engaged in blatant anti-competitive practices. That's the real root cause of so many issues plaguing America today."" Which came about through corporate greed. That’s exactly it. A healthy capitalist society has a heavy antitrust hand. Corporations grow like a cancer when left unchecked. They need to be cut back once in a while. They also look at their competition, set a secret meeting with them, and next thing you know they are both setting the same price for the same thing. That and printing so much money. The problem is that it has become practically impossible to evaluate for the average person. Products have become highly advanced and are composed of countless black boxes produced in far away places. There’s no way to understand to what extent a price is fair. but all my red cap friends told me government regulations are bad Americans most affected by slavery buy clothing made by slave labor and do so proudly... Our country is fucked. Would it help if we targeted all the sociopath oligarchs? — 👽 This is what I keep saying, we literally have all the laws we need to fix everything, we literally just don't enforce them Supply chain has been absolutely brutal. I also 100% agree on the oligopolies getting way too little oversight from regulators, but COVID has put our supply chain infrastructure back at least another year and a half before things get to normal. I want my shit to be flipped sometimes… > ~~do~~ **did** FTFY it do be that way sometimes This inflation has more to do with supply and demand issues than the increased liquidity to the markets. If that were the case, it’s incredibly sad such small amount of money could do the trick. [deleted] Well let's hear it then... Edit: I know I'm a idiot and don't mind letting people know. Not really. The problem is most of your peers spend most of the money they receive. If we all were a bit more discerning consumers, more of that money would go to savings (and eventually less would be pumped from the top) [deleted] Antiwork angst *is* penetrating all subs. There’s several other big subs that have also converged on the same stuff. It’s not surprising, really, people are upset and for a reason, it’s just notable that without the subreddit name on the top it’s hard to guess where a post came from these days. Twitter’s the same way, hell half those posts come from there [deleted] [deleted] Her annual salary is $221,400 From 2019-2021 she made $7.2 million in speaking fees from various Hedge Funds and banks. https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/01/yellen-made-millions-in-wall-street-speeches-453223 Who do you think she works for again? Tell me she doesn’t have several million conflicts of interests…. So it's a foundational truth now that corporate greed has no bearing on inflation? I'd love for you to elaborate on that instead of just complaining about how redditors blindly believe things without evidence. Seems pretty hypocritical. The quality of discussion on reddit in most of the major subs has really deteriorated in the past 5 years or so. It's been political rhetoric for weeks now. It's always enlightening to see how reddit is just a culpable of repeating partisan rhetoric as Twitter and Facebook are Yeah, you guys. I’m with you. Reddit’s just a big group of morons. Let’s tell them why she’s right, and they’re all stupid. I feel like I’ve hogged the mic for too long. You go first. ""Foundational Truths"" Treating econ like it's a hard science lol Can you honestly say that corporate greed (CEO’s making millions more than ever in the last couple years) has nothing to do with any of our countries current financial problems? 🤨 You seem like you work for them trying to save face for them. We aren’t stupid, we know something isn’t right! I hear you. But what “foundational truths” are you referring to? What I think what most people are missing (my interpretation of “foundational truth”) and not taking into consideration is that anyone in a prominent position or head of a particular department is essentially a spokesperson. They’re given descriptions of “policymakers” and other jargon, but they are just representatives for influencers behind the scenes (no, not reptilians or the Freemasons, but more like the men occupying the cigar rooms in exclusive “social” clubs - who could possibly be a reptilian or a Freemason lol). Yellen, Fauci, Biden, Barrett, etc - their function is more so of a CEO of a public company rather than a CEO of a private startup. If a person is taking whatever they are publicly stating at face value and think they’re acting on their own accord….well let’s just say they’re going to be taken for a ride not of their own will. To illustrate this on a more visual level, I just think “finger puppets” whenever I see any statements from people in these positions. Admittedly it took me far too long to pick up on the sarcasm here. it's peak reddit. Uneducated pseudo-intellectual criticizes Nobel prize winner without any valid criticism. Not a single valid point, just blind ignorance. There's literally a Nobel prize winner carrying out a genocide in Africa right now. The Nobel prize doesn't give you a free pass for life. The Nobel prize in Econ was made up outside of the original nobel system and the Swedish banks slowly donated its way to prominence. Friedman won it early in its conception, at its fakest point, in my opinion. That's a really interesting perspective. Do you have any background reading resources related to that framework of analysis? lol wow, didn't even know that. definitely explains this soundbite SEC is a shame to rape the little guy while ignoring massive insider trading cough every politician in the US cough, as well as Ponzi schemes they for sure knew about, aka Maddoff, and many other examples while they crack down on people buying game stop stock and sending Martha S to prison 6 figures? That’s all? Haha bro do some research she is a millionaire due to these speaking fees yearly I’m telling you her toast has caviar on both sides! I'm looking at the state of the country with all these Ivy Leaguers in charge and I'm thinking they're not that smart. Wanna be really saddened? Read my comments and conversations from today. Too many morons on reddit giving opinions on shit they have no actual knowledge of. >Oil companies have, without a doubt, seized on the current inflationary environment to increase margins above and beyond what the cost environment demanded. Except *they* haven’t done anything to do that. That’s a result of market conditions. >There have been legitimate Econ 101 levels of supply and demand fluctuations that have had significant impacts on oil/gas prices. OPEC, Russia/Ukraine situation, domestic extraction levels, actual usage rebounding from pandemic lows, etc. Speaking of econ101, look up the term “price taker”. >The idea that they’re “gouging” is largely semantic. But in their own investor calls they’ve gleefully commented on significant margin improvements. They didn’t just pass on costs. They passed on costs plus enough to have huge increases in net profits. That’s gouging and greed to the consumers who don’t benefit from it and just end up paying more at the pump. Except they haven’t, since oil companies don’t set the price of oil. [deleted] Nah, we get the burnt crumbs at the bottom of the toaster. Government favors to corporations is what defines capitalism in a societal construct, because government defines what allowances are made to enable a free market system. This whole subthread is just a bunch of complaining about how large companies make money. It’s completely unrelated to the current state of inflation. The relationship is more about how breathing relates to consciousness, not about any kind of diagnostic insight into our current economic state. When you have supply chain uncertainty you have to estimate the impact on production costs. But that whole dynamic is something different from the public perception of corporate greed. That phrase connotes images of greedy executives with suitcases full of cash laughing at how they are making the poor man suffer. What you’re talking about is the mechanics of doing business in uncertain times. It’s completely different. No capitalism doesn’t drive greed because when you look at a lot of these mega yachts they say that they’re more rented out then they’re ever used so it’s like a status symbol it doesn’t really mean anything it’s dumb you have money you have means I don’t know why people have to brag oh look I have more than you My opinion, but the rate that housing prices have been growing is unsustainable for renters (a huge portion of people). I have a good job, make a good wage, and over the past 5 years or so I've been getting squeezed more and more. Wealth disparity is out of control, people/corporations with deep pockets are overpaying and jacking up rents everywhere. People can't afford to spend anymore outside of necessities. I know I can't, and I'm in a better position than lots of people. Spending power is more and more transitioning to less and less people, and that is not a good sign for the economy. That's not what I'm saying? Companies have always been ""greedy"", because generating profit for the shareholders is their raison d'etre. The big thing now is that fears around inflation and a frankly castrated and largely bought (campaign donations, lobbyists, citizens united etc. facilitate this sort of thing) political sphere means that companies are able to act more agregiously than before covid. Covid also carried a dramatic cultural shift where the specific problems of corporate 'greed' became more mainstream to talk about. The combination of the global economic situation with the novel interest in corporate affairs gives the illusion that companies are greedier than before. In reality they are doing what they're always done: maximise profits for the shareholders while leaving the working and middle class behind. For a start, how about stopping to elect obvious frauds who dont even make an effort to be perceived as legitimate, and gleefully gamble on the stock market with taxpayer money using insider information? How about regulating banks who are basically free to do whatever the fuck they want with said money, even eluding the consequences of the 2008 global economic collapse? Thats like 80% of the US Congress and 100% of US financial institutions right there, and its all legal. The money drain isnt welfare or socialism, its not space exploration and its not even your military. It is pure unadulterated corruption and white collar anarchy, perpetuated by the third generation of „infinite growth“ capitalists who refuse to accept reality. By definition the middle class is mostly earners more than savers. The wealth transfers that accelerated in the 80s and 90s creating great concentration of wealth and which evolved into a system that cemented baby boomers' gains at the expense of younger generations all occurred during periods of relatively low inflation. It isn't clear at all that inflation will harm the middle class more than individuals living off of investments or trust funds. A quick survey of news organizations should tell you which economic classes their editorial boards believe will benefit. The combination of economic growth and low unemployment is the canonical ingredients to wage growth. Reddit has always been that way. Subs are only good until they hit a critical mass and implode on themselves. You can curate a garden but you can’t curate a forest. Its seems you’ve already figured that out though. Reddit id at its best with small niche hobby subs and at its worst with large major ones. Just cause the mainstream accepts a certain viewpoint, doesn’t make the viewpoint right (and in this case, the mainstream view is very wrong). The CEOs don't lose the shareholders do. TGT is now at price levels last seen in mid 2019. If you have any retirement like a 401k at all that affects you. I'm all for corporate pay reform. Constrained supply and transportation premiums shouldn't be disregarded. Sure, I wouldn’t argue against that. The rub however is that it has been an opportunity for companies to push prices higher on items that they normally wouldn’t dare touch. Companies on the S&P 500 for example recorded an increase of profit margins of over 12%, which pushes corporate profits to levels we have never seen. Corporations certainly didn’t start the problem but they have damn well have taken advantage of it and pushed it further along. Inflation has not hit their bottom lines anywhere near the levels we feel individually. This is idiotic logic. Like there’s never been sector wide price fixing agreed to by what you would call competitors. I just looked at Q1 earnings for Walmart, JPM, Google and Amazon - all are down 10%+ from 2021. Price increases aren’t translating to record profits. You don’t have a clue Yea, you’re clueless. Mentioning retail is particularly hilarious considering the notoriously razor-thin profit margins of most retail/grocery stores My point is that companies have always been greedy, blaming inflation on greed is like blaming gravity for killing someone that fell from a building. We didn’t have inflation at 1-2% because companies were restraining from their own greed, and like wise inflation is not high today because suddenly they decided to be more greedy. What part of inflation is 6.9% and where? Inflation outside CPI is a lot higher than that 8.5% that US have atm, the part that effects companies more than regular people. The CPI may not reflect the inflation an everyday consumer experiences. It has all kinds of weird adjustments by government statisticians like hedonic adjustment, substitution, and owner's equivalent rent. You realize inflation is different for each region and sector right? Except that profit margins also need to be elevated to account for the previous year of lower margins (due to pandemic) and anticipating a recession. shhh he thinks he's good at math https://www.epi.org/blog/corporate-profits-have-contributed-disproportionately-to-inflation-how-should-policymakers-respond/ The Economic Policy Institute has very clear figures showing corporate profits vastly outpacing inflation, for anyone wondering, btw. Well then what companies were you talking about specifically? Absolutely not. Profit is good and healthy, but why raise prices if your cost of raw goods didn’t increase? That’s why I shared that article. Dude literally said, they raising prices because they can. Not that they have to. Costs didn’t go up. Simply, doing it because they can. In an economy coming out of a weird semi shutdown with Covid… massive geo political strife… ? Companies really needed to raise prices after we gave them all this free money? first to cry bailout when economy tanks. Companies Grabbed up PPP , then go on TV blaming people for getting so called “free” money (which ended up later on being treated as an advance on income tax which led to the government paying out less refunds to Americans). It simple takes 1 manufacture to decide to not raise prices to hold costs firm. Instead, 1 raises prices and so does the other and another. It’s like the run on toilet paper. See it leaving the shelves so you grab it just because. You don’t need the toilet paper but you grab it anyways. Same with these record profits .costs haven’t changed. But if you don’t raise prices then your not gonna make more money like every other company so you fall in line. And lord knows, if you ain’t making more money, shareholders gonna be pissed. Well first of we all knew that climate change was happening since the 1980s. The energy dependency of states is a big thing because oil and gas companies can change the prices as they like. They used the War in Ukraine to jack up prices. These companies will hold the gas and oil prices high so they can make their so much money to take over the renewable energy sector and still have a business model in 10 years time. That’s called the green paradox. It’s a great read. When the fed puts securities on their balance sheet, that cash goes somewhere. Commercial banks don’t sell securities to the fed just because they want to have cash in their checking account. you are being fooled if you think printing that much money “never made it into the economy”. Markets are a closed loop system. Crazy how we were printing a shitload of money for years and saw super low inflation then all of a sudden we have a supply crunch and inflation soars. That’s quite the coincidence. spending is the problem. velocity of the money creates inflation. but liberals say spending is not problem.SMH glad we had 2 democrats who didn’t let $2T more spending or we’d be dead in water. Yeah, it just lagged for years and years and years of deficit spending and certainly has nothing to do with the supply crunch… Idk exactly what you mean. I was just trying to point out that the concept of the government printing money is wrong. Money gets created by banks giving out loans. This is patently false. Very true, a high risk - high reward situation. We have oligopoloesn that mimic monopolies. Except for cable companies. They have monopolies. Name one single private sector monopoly. Accumulating $7.2m as someone with her background and knowledge isn’t that much of a feat. If anything she’s hampering the amount she could make with her position. Why not just take a few board positions and make 7 figs and not deal with any of this? We have legalized bribery or I’m sorry lobbying vote whoever you want in at the end of the day you will end up with congress never doing anything because it’s against their own and their briber’s interest Pretty sure people are mad at billionaires not just for amassing wealth. It shouldn’t have to be said that it’s because of what they do. You’d have to be an idiot to not get that. Yes. They shouldn’t have to be, but then people say things like you said. If someone paid you 100k to speak for an hour about your job... Would you take it? [deleted] Yeah, my life is super terrible. Poor them and me. 😂 [deleted] > ""The real problem here is that America has let way too many monopolies and duopolies and oligopolies thrive even when they have engaged in blatant anti-competitive practices. That's the real root cause of so many issues plaguing America today."" > > Which came about through corporate greed. What does that even mean? Capitalism by definition assumes that people and corporations are greedy. Many countries have strong oversight and checks and balances to protect monopolistic and antitrust and cartelized behavior of companies and individuals. That is what is lacking. You're saying stuff like ""Which came about through human violence"". Humans are not magically going to stop being violent or greedy just because you wave a magic wand and convert the economy from a capitalist one to a socialist one. You need strong laws for both. What's that quote from? You mean share holders greed Yes, but you’re also generalizing. Energy, telecoms, utilities require huge capital investments like a lot of other industries. Simply saying corporate greed is a knee jerk response. Pretty much. The Sherman anti trust practices of the past were openly set aside in favor of consolidation. We are very well into the era where the conglomerates set the rules and run everything. And given the behavior I have seen of some of these businessmen, non-violent psychopathy and greed is definitely running rampant in those reaches of society. We talk about how insane it is that many young people are in favor of socialism, but that ideology wasn’t born out of nowhere. It was born out of a generation whose access to assets is profoundly more difficult than prior generations so of course they’re going to try looking at other ideas. Doesn’t mean it’s the right answer, but we do know capitalism went wrong. Massive, multi billion and trillion dollar corporations are the result of government favors, not capitalism. Capitalism favors competition, not monopolies. Cronyism favors monopolies. > They also look at their competition, set a secret meeting with them, and next thing you know they are both setting the same price for the same thing. You're describing the exact same thing i said. This is classic cartelization and monopolistic and antitrust behavior. Many countries have strong oversight and protection against this. America used to have this but this has been getting systematically diluted. This is the real danger and issue affecting the American economy today. Collusion is highly illegal. [deleted] Honestly debt isn’t bad if it’s debt paying for infrastructure, education, and prolonging life. It leads to long term gains and reduces the cost for businesses to operate, it’s blind debt with no planning and debt for depreciating assets (like military equipment being replaced, funding for out dated programs, tax cuts for rich friends etc..) Antitrust oversight and monopolistic and trade restrictive practices are well understood oversight things and there are plenty of oversight and governing bodies doing a great job. They don't just use ""fair price"" aka cost of goods and cost of labor/R&D etc to determine antitrust. In many cases, it gets initiated by complaints from the competition. And even otherwise, it is easy to figure out if this kind of behavior is going on in a systematic large scale way > Would it help if we targeted all the sociopath oligarchs? That would mean we're just on a witch-hunt. It is always easy to find a few scapegoats in any problematic situation. Easy to pick up pitchforks and bay bloodthirst emotions towards those scapegoats. The tougher question and answer is how we will avoid those situations as a society. ʇᴉɥs ʎɯ TLDR; Neoliberalism if evil shit yeah let's hear his explanation. You live clearly not paid attention in class. She’s corrupt, as are they all. We’ve all seen enough proof to know it too… they just keep trying to discredit us and say “we dont understand”… What’s going on is blatantly obvious. Our financial system is INSANELY corrupted and it’s finally starting to come out and they are doing/saying whatever necessary to keep the charade going. Something big is coming. I wouldn't say corrupt or incompetent, just completely out of touch. Folks making at or near her income see what's currently happening as not a big deal, but unbeknownst to them it's a massive deal for a sizeable portion of the population, which has a slower but substantial ripple effect to the economic factors that impact upper class. By the time those in upper class feel 'pain' this time around, I fear it will be too late. [deleted] Corporate profits are a function of Kalecki's equation, not ""greed."" You do know about supply and demand, right? The Economy sub is just embarrassing at this point. Same with Technology. It’s everywhere now. We are in phase 1 of class warfare. She made $220k salary and several million from Wall Street and banks… it’s clear she doesn’t work for the people with millions of dollars in conflicting interests This is where my first thought went reading this. She’s been wrong before, she admitted it, why is it outlandish for us to question her acumen here when pretty much all of Reddit called this shit lol Obama also makes speaking fees by speaking to banks. Is he also working for the banks, despite not being in government anymore? Turns out banks like having people intimately familiar with the economy and where government is heading speaking at their events, because, ya know, it's relevant material to them. Not everything is a conspiracy. Reddit is out of its collective mind on this shit. [deleted] You are beyond help. I hope this clarifies things for you Where’s any real evidence of corporate greed driving increases? Is the evidence just “corporations are evil so it must be true”? Is it just because profits are higher? Yeah, that’s what happens with inflation. Doesn’t matter since costs are rising too. The only beneficiary of inflation is the government since people are pushed into higher tax brackets that aren’t adjusted for inflation. [deleted] [deleted] Yeah of course whoever doesn't suck the dick of your overlords is ""uneducated"" (lol, I have a PhD in physics). You come and tell me which parts of Milton Friedman's work have been vindicated by time, the part where he says that monetary policy is the only tool required to manage economic crisis or the one where he says the only responsibility of corporations is to shareholders? Or something else equally stupid that never found any validation in the real world? I'm curious, shower me with your knowledge! On top of that the “Nobel Prize for Economics” is not awarded by the same institution as the actual Nobel Prizes for Physics, Medicine, etc. So if you feel that the original prizes are a fraud, Economics is doubly illegitimate. Martha S deserved to go to prison. When Corporations have success and record breaking profits, it’s due to their “hard work.” When they fail, the taxpayers bail them out. Yay, free capital markets! The government works for the corporations and have always been designed that way. [deleted] It’s like a cult, where if you bleat the right baaa, you will be rewarded when you cease to be professionally useful. It’s working exactly as intended. It's gouging - just by a different route. Gouging is, in a nutshell, basically taking advantage to the detriment of society. Purposefully constricting the volume has an obvious & predictable result of raising prices. It is simply coming at market manipulation from a different angle. I suppose someone could argue it is a form of price fixing or some other term but the result at the pump is the same. Those investor earnings calls reflect that they of course know this - while having alternatives to alleviate the pain at the pump for the good of the country - but choose not to because...greed. Hiding behind ""but we don't personally set prices"" is simply slight-of-hand (and not even a very good one). They don’t control the price of oil, in fact I didn’t say or imply that they did. I even noted that there are plenty of normal market based reasons why costs went up and got passed through. But they do have control over certain aspects of the price people pay at the pump. It is inaccurate to pretend that they don’t. People who claim “corporate greed” is the beginning middle and end of inflation are wrong. But so are people like Yellen who act like the only pricing changes firms have made have been a result of market conditions and not at least some level of trying to get a bit of extra profit. Which some people view as greedy in the current environment. Oil companies, and many others, have put through additional pricing in excess of the amount the cost environment would require to avoid margin erosion. They have said this in their earnings calls. Whether they’re right or wrong is up for debate. But they have take the current market conditions as an opportunity to take a little bit more than they used to be able to. This is what people, rightly or wrongly, perceive to be price gouging. And because oil is the cornerstone of the economy, when they take a little extra, it has a small but real impact on the impacts of inflation. Thank you for the reply! I did watch a video that said a similar thing: most of the cost of gas is determined by OPEC+ and they’re deciding not to produce anything beyond what they are because they like the profits. I think the inherent issue is you have other countries deciding a major factor of our economy, and the companies that sell this commodity obviously have no incentive to keep prices low, and if they decide to keep margins fat, they rake in profits, the average American gets screwed, and no matter the cost of gas, our entire economy depends on it and therefore there will always be demand. I can only assume that increases costs of goods and services due to transportation cost increases, and therefore contributes to inflation. Is that wrong to assume? ExxonMobil Gross Profit by year (March to March): 2020- $51B 2021- $64B 2022- $72B Sure seems like these uncertain times have been pretty damn good! Just wait till the student loan repayments occur at the end of August. Things are about to get tight for some folks What a lovely, hypocritical, off-topic thread this is. I’m starting to get lost here. Who is the mainstream? Typically, that would be people like Yellen. Now the disenfranchised and exploited workers who have finally seen behind the curtain and who no longer believe the ‘mainstream’ views we’re all fed daily about the economy — and who really guides the ship — have become the mainstream? What? >TGT is now at price levels last seen in 2019 I don’t give a shit what their stock price is. Their sales grew 35% over the last two years and profits grew 13% over that same period. So what’s really going on here and why are 401ks suffering despite not only a growth in business but growth in profits as well? Again, why is it the consumer and the American peoples responsibility to help these poor billion dollar companies in their time of need? Downvoting doesn’t change the facts. Stop being a corporate apologist. That’s not inflation, that’s just the market working out pricing. Covid didn’t cause the M2 to double, central banking did that. Which is completely expected? You print money in any way and they raise prices. Even if you banned them from raising prices printing money would create a black market where the prices rise. Inflation fucks consumers more and everybody else was preparing for inflation back in 2020. Yet we still support policies that only create more inflation. What sector is currently undergoing ""sector-wide price-fixing""? Sounds like a conspiracy theory. If there were sector-wide price-fixing then there would be a line of politicians looking to bring anti-trust laws against the ""evil price gougers"". So why is grocery giant Kroger's profits up 17% Saying ""they've always been greedy"" is not a strong argument. They've never overreached this much. >We didn’t have inflation at 1-2% because companies were restraining from their own greed Considering they are now doing 4x what they did before, they most certainly did. Corporations will take every mile of inches you give them. It's literally because companies are mad that they lost out on more profits, even though they were still profitable. They just decided to hike up numbers for a greater profit margin. Rose by 6.9% sorry How are you gonna have this take on a finance sub? >hedonic adjustment What a weird adjustment! Today's car is **totally** the same as a Ford Pinto era car! Computers haven't improved since they were invented! Smart phones aren't real, only those bricks they used to have in the 1980s! >substitution Apple shortage, and they skyrocket to a billion dollars per pound. Instead of substituting bananas or oranges for apples, consumers will simply buy apples at a billion dollars per pound. CPI explodes overnight, inflation is out of control because consumers can't figure out how to substitute like goods for one another! >owner's equivalent rent This one can't be quite as pithy, but come on. The alternatives of this are to either include housing prices in the CPI, which doesn't make sense because in the US, housing is at least partially an investment/store of wealth, and thus not indicative of **cost of living** but rather **cost of living and investing**, or to ignore 2/3rds of the housing market by only including rental housing prices, or to factor in owned housing prices by mortgages, which then leaves out housing owned beyond the amortization of the loan as well as includes mortgages that have been locked in pricing wise for decades. OER is pretty clearly the way to go. Absolutely terrible, terrible take. Self fulfilling prophecy You mean the EPI where literally 80% of the Board of Directors are labor unions: https://www.epi.org/about/board/ And it's the only 'economic' think tank I've seen in my life state tariffs are good for the country. EPI is literally propaganda at this point. And my point was simple, 'profits' would be going up mechanically because of how simple percent change works. That chart includes a time period where companies ran thin and weren’t really dealing with supply constraints due to existing supply before the pandemic started. If he pulled the data to include only 3Q21, 4Q21, 1Q22, and eventually 2Q22, those profit margins will tell a vastly different story. The massive profits of most companies in 2020 and early 2021 (when there wasn’t a lot of inflation either) is completely distorting the issues that companies are currently facing right now if you’re just looking at this guy’s chart. Thank you >but why raise prices if your cost of raw goods didn’t increase? Except they absolutely have. From your own article: > Americans are paying about 42 percent more on average for a gallon of gas than a year before, the data shows. They’re also paying 10.5 percent more for eggs, meat, poultry, and fish; 4 percent more for coffee; 19 percent more for bacon; 6 percent more for peanut butter; 27 percent more for propane, kerosene, and firewood; 5.2 percent more for electricity; 24.4 percent more for used vehicles; and 7.1 percent more for appliances. >Dude literally said, they raising prices because they can. Not that they have to. Costs didn’t go up. Simply, doing it because they can. No he didn’t. >Catsimatidis cited rising inflation and supply chain bottlenecks that are currently plaguing supermarkets and other retailers around the United States. >In an economy coming out of a weird semi shutdown with Covid… massive geo political strife… first to cry bailout when economy tanks. Grabbed up PPP , then blaming people for getting so called “free” money which ended up later on being treated as an advance on income tax which have out less refunds to Americans. Was there corruption and mismanagement with COVID relief money? Absolutely. But that isn’t a contributing factor of inflation. If anything, if that money was more evenly distributed inflation would probably be worse. >It simple takes 1 manufacture to decide to not raise prices to hold costs firm. Lol, this is so simplistic and ignorant I don’t even know what to say. But no, that’s not how it works. >Instead, 1 raises prices and so does the tiger and the other. I don’t see what tigers have to do with this. >It’s like the run on toilet paper. See it leaving the shelves so you grab it just because. You don’t need the toilet paper but you grab it anyways. Same with these record profits . No, not the same. >costs hasn’t changed. Yes they have. Materials, labor, transportation; everything has gotten more expensive. If your costs increase you’re going to have to raise prices to remain profitable. >But if you don’t raise prices then your not gonna make more money and lord knows, if you ain’t making money shareholders gonna be pissed. Shareholders like making money instead of losing it? You don’t say? so why these companies got greedy NOW? why not in 100s of years of existence? what changed? something they just found out? It technically made it into the economy. It just sat on bank balance sheets. go read how banks manage money and M1/M2 works. last crisis made banks smarter and made them keep it in balance sheet as it didn’t cost anything to hold (zero interest rates). things got crazy last year with mindless govt spending and social programs while chocking supply chains with useless shutdowns. Inflation is combination of factors, including too many dollars chasing too few goods. Supply is absolutely one of those factors because of covid related shut downs. You cannot ignore money supply though. The printing and subsequent release of money into the economy in 2020 and 2021 is orders of magnitiude higher than what was done before, even though the federal government has racking up huge deficits for more than a decade. Nothing in the economy is a coincidence. That was all fueled by cheap imports from China. It kept inflation down. Throw some tariffs, Covid, lock downs, shipping problems, rising Chinese labor, rising energy costs…. Inflation. Yeah then add on trillions of dollars created i completely agree with you. it’s others on reddit who don’t know that govt spending is real problem (against what biden and liberal media say).printed money enters economy through banks. if banks don’t lend, printing trillions don’t matter. Oh really, I guess factual research data is patently false to you? https://www.statista.com/statistics/185369/median-hourly-earnings-of-wage-and-salary-workers/ No. ConEd - nyc energy company and pretty much every other energy company internet companies depending on location De-Beers - which owns pretty much all diamond production both natural and synthetic Insys - the producers of nalaoxone. So yeah … Imagine a world a where lobbying was illegal. Precisely. Which is why it’s up to us to vote against it. There is zero difference to me whether someone got funded by a super pac or their own billions. And sadly, we don’t get much in the way of results either way. Society picks and chooses - CEO makes $10M , they're the leach in society; professional athlete makes $40M / year , people idolize them with their names on t-shirts. 50% of the population plays the lottery so that they have a chance to be a multi millionaire - anyone on this sub would be thrilled with $100M in their bank account. It's our job to make the game work for everyone, not hate the player. Unfortunately, it keeps being said that the power weilding players are writing the rules of the games - which makes one think that this in and of itself is the most pressing issue our society is facing. Because it's clear we're crippled in making changes. I can assure you that they most certainly are not, as much as I wish they were... I’m interested in how you view them as not being connected. Hell, I'll take half and talk for 2 Why would anybody want to pay her $100k to speak if not to buy influence? She isn't saying anything mind melting. These companies don't need people to come and talk for an hour to blow their minds. Obviously she is going to take the money. But it is also obviously corruption with an obvious purpose. I would, and you should be weirded out by that with me being a nobody. You should be WAY MORE weirded out if I, let’s say, had/have a government job that directly impacts the people paying me 100k for a one hour talk. That was three paragraphs that would’ve owned me if I showed care about college speakers and not billion dollar corporations paying that much to active and former politicians. I hope you never said shit about political donations corrupting politicians because then you’re hypocritical. Damn how many commencement ceremonies are these companies having every year then? These people are literally talking in private rooms for $100ks and you don't think that's a little bit suspicious? You think the companies just value what they have to say that much that, for no particular reason, they're just going to hand her money to waffle on for a couple hours? At *best* they are getting information they aren't supposed to get in those meetings, or information that if given should be public knowledge. But it is clear and obvious that this is just money changing hands to stay in her good graces. It may not be as simple as ""Here is $200k, do this for us"" but it is still corruption meant to influence her decisions in her official position. They are buying her favor, it's as plain as day. Yep. There needs to be government and regulation involved. Any social structure needs multiple different powerful institutions to keep each other in check: government, businesses, unions, etc. The problem is that every system has been tainted by political bullshit. Like having some necessary regulations? “ThAtS SoCiAlIsM!!!” I’m starting to think the only way we will escape this is if we coin a new term that basically just means a functioning social democracy with a free, but well-regulated market and then just PR the shit out of it before half the country is turned sour on it the same way any of the systems besides full-blown capitalism are for them (despite most of them not even being able to describe what capitalism, or any of the other “isms” for that matter, actually mean). The economics of corruption within a capitalist system is a major difference. Crony capitalism is an end stage version that has become so riddled with corruption and regulatory capture that the natural feedback mechanisms no longer function effectively. Rent seeking and connections dominate such systems. You can choose not to see a difference but any system set up without all that waste will dominate, the corrupt system will by necessity fall back on closed cartel systems to protect their false markets. Hate on capitalism all you want, means nothing. Bad beats worse. It means they’re anti-free market But there are varying levels of violence or greed. It’s not on / off..,, The new deal democrats had things much more under control than they are now. More competition, more control of corporations, much higher taxes to keep too much wealth from accumulating at the top. The middle class was robust. People could afford a home on one salary. Corporations are a fact of life, but they need to be well controlled. Illegal isn’t enough as deterrent, it seems. The amount they make from fleecing customers is far more than the fines that get paid. Perhaps for some industries it’s hard to do but for others (airlines) it’s happening all the time. “Blatantly illegal” doesn’t stop corporate USA at all. Look up prosecutions for price fixing, bid rigging, market allocation schemes and know that that tip of the iceberg is just who is getting caught and slapped on the wrist. I agree that good spending is good. However SO many bills have a lot of pork and it's a slap in the face. and gender study programs in Pakistan Infrastructure isn’t a depreciating asset? Perhaps you mean non productive assets? Isnt it hard to have oversight in a decentralised world? I find it hard to believe they can track problems across borders. I love this place. *crickets* Alright, want a free econ lesson? Gimme your question. [deleted] [deleted] [deleted] This! [deleted] [deleted] No one thinks there's a conspiracy. There's no Yellen-led cabal meeting secretly under a pizza shop on Wall Street every Thursday. But it is basic common sense to realize that Yellen's own financial well-being is tied to having banks like her and want to bring her in for speaking fees. That's not a conspiracy. If I made $50k per year in my job but my side hustle started making me $500k per year, I'd absolutely shift my focus and attention to ensuring my side hustle continues, regardless of what happens with my job. While he was a government employee? Agree, she’s essentially serving as the financial headliner for these conferences and events. They pay her a lot of money to speak since she is a well known name that carries a lot of weight in the financial and regulatory communities. It’s like hiring a star musician to perform for a major conference. It’s crazy that people think there’s some wild conspiracy behind these actions. Who does she answer to? The ppl who pay her the most Yup, I agree with you on that. Corporate greed is definitely a feature, not a bug. Part of the design is to have focus (whether it be blame or credit) be on spokesperson role as well (who is replaceable). Certified Redditor right here. Lmao luckily for me I enjoy quitting jobs and taking breaks between working so I always cash out my 401k to cover me. Did a recent breakdown and if I would’ve rolled over all of them they’d be down more than the tax penalties I took to early withdraw. I fully agree about Bernie. Even if you want to attack his policies or call him a sexist (patently false) at the end of the day he’s one of maybe three politicians I can think of that actually seem to care about their constituents and citizens as a whole. Most congresspeople don’t care and just follow their party/lobbyists direction whereas he seems to actually consider the ramifications of his decisions. >(lol, I have a PhD in physics) just like Peter Navarro claims to have a PhD in economics when he was talking about public health? >the part where he says that monetary policy is the only tool required to manage economic crisis or the one where he says the only responsibility of corporations is to shareholders? way to describe his life works in a couple of sentences. Very intellectual. lol >I'm curious, shower me with your knowledge! I don't have a PhD in economics. It is not my field. But Milton Friedman has h-index of 115, with 201722 citations. Is your h-index even double digit? at least mine is. Your mom deserves to go to prison. Bingo At that price I hope they each get a turn porkin her. Can’t believe people pay to listen to her. Whenever I hear her she she reminds me of a first grader from the Jersey shore trying to read out loud. Indeed it is. >Purposefully constricting the volume has an obvious & predictable result of raising prices. Except they haven’t been doing that. Exxon and Chevron have both announced increases in output in 2022 precisely because the price of oil is high. However because individual oil companies make up a small part of the total oil market supply, this increase isn’t enough to significantly decrease prices. So this completely invalidates the rest of your comment. >I can only assume that increases costs of goods and services due to transportation cost increases, and therefore contributes to inflation. Is that wrong to assume? No Let's try as hard as we can to be disingenuous by citing gross numbers!! Here are the net income numbers: * 2019: $14.34B * 2020: -$22.44B * 2021: $23.04B Oil has been in a 10+ year bear market and emerged in 2021. Take your meds. https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/XOM/exxon/net-income Hey thanks for posting the underlying cause of inflation! Can you send this to the Fed? We just had a 10 year period (2010-2020) of 1.7% inflation. Why wasn’t there price gouging causing inflation back in 2015? Maybe something global happened in 2020 where everything shut down, and full demand came back too quickly when production was cut because the producers were expecting a GFC 2.0 type crash. Kinda like a whip effect, I wonder if there’s an economic term for that… I don’t know Jack shit about economics and finance so none of this shit makes sense. I imagine I speak for at least 60% of Americans when i say “who the fuck is to blame then” when we are tightening belts. Edit: thanks for downvotes instead of trying to educate. 👌 “Corporations suck” is an absolutely mainstream position lmao I 100% agree with what your saying. I would argue tho, it’s our job to seek out a different points of view and weigh the risk ourselves. Sometimes the “average joe” can make some money on the FED being wrong [https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/costpushinflation.asp#:\~:text=In%20short%2C%20cost%2Dpush%20inflation,higher%20prices%20passed%20onto%20consumers](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/costpushinflation.asp#:~:text=In%20short%2C%20cost%2Dpush%20inflation,higher%20prices%20passed%20onto%20consumers) Look at the gas prices in Germany. Our anti trust laws are toothless and all the gas stations are pricing really closely. Well, the first thing that comes to mind is OPEC+ and the US preventing countries like Venezuela and Iran from bringing oil into the market. Kroger's whopping net margin of 1.75% is lower than it was pre-pandemic That’s not how inflation works. You can easily treat greed as a constant because companies will always charge absolutely the maximum they can get away with. Thinking that inflation is 8% today because companies are 4x more greedy than more greedy than they were in 2012 is extremely naive. If companies could get away with it they would charge infinite amounts for whatever they are providing. What keeps prices in check are market conditions which are impacted by supply, demand, regulations, competitive landscape, shift in preferences, interest rates, money supply, you name it. Greed exists, but it’s always been there and its naive to think about the difference between high inflation and low inflation as a sudden change in how greedy corporations act. Lol we really gonna try anti labor union propaganda here? Also EPI has high fact ratings for most media bias sources. Absolutely none of what you said refutes the numbers. I like your brain. You’re hot. printing money is not problem as long as bank don’t lend it. massive spending is what creates inflation as money gets into economy and jacks up asset prices. manufactured shutdowns created supply chain problems and too much govt spending created too much demand, resulting in inflation. if we didn’t shut down the economy and didn’t hand out money to everybody last year, we wouldn’t see this inflation. banks didn’t lend as much money as they could so creating money wasn’t that big of an issue. *and ignore all the trillions of dollars created before i dont think that we are talking about the same thing. Money is created by banks giving out loans (not printed money per se). As the amounts of debt grows the amount of money in the system increases. Student debt is a great example for that. Only evergrowing loans/debts allow the economy to get bigger and bigger. The consequence is that the ones owing the money are being exploited to pay the debts or they exploit others or ""nature"" to pay the debts. Meanwhile more new loans are given and the cycle continues and even begins to spiral a bit. idk why you keep mentioning liberal media. I agree with you that libs are total idiots and blind, but the conservatives are also complete idiots. The only difference is that the conservatives are proud about their greed and do their evil shit a bit more open, while the libs try to keep the image clean, while bombing the shit out of third world countries or imprison even more migrants at the border than Trump. “The oppressed are allowed once every few years to decide which particular representatives of the oppressing class are to represent and repress them in parliament.” When has voting ever changed anything? How many cycles will it take before you realise it's rigged? I can assure you that your understanding is much less than your conviction. Edit: it seems you blocked me, but I just wanted to say: The condescension would land better if you weren’t completely ignorant of economic concepts. She isn't the only one in govt accepting money for ""lectures"" [deleted] We talk about how insane it is that many young people are in favor of socialism, but that ideology wasn’t born out of nowhere. It was born out of a generation whose access to assets is profoundly more difficult than prior generations so of course they’re going to try looking at other ideas. Doesn’t mean it’s the right answer, but we do know capitalism went wrong. The gov is the ones paid off to allow happen. To pretend like gov't isn't about $$ as much as any corporation is laughable. ​ Why when Biden elected.. China rejoiced? ""The establishment is back and we can control the establishment"" - China > It means they’re anti-free market corporate greed doesn't mean anti free market. Free markets assume that corporates and individuals are greedy. Just as the theory of evolution assumes that every creature looks after its own best interest That's exactly what I was thinking. > But there are varying levels of violence or greed. It’s not on / off..,, There are varying levels of greed and violence regardless whether you're in a socialist or capitalist economy. That stuff is human nature. Thing is, capitalism allows the expression of those base level instincts and emotions while making it clear what the trade-offs are. Socialism just waves a magic wand in the air and says ""you have to be good"" even when it hurts you individually. And i say this as someone who is firmly in support of social welfare policies that provide a basic level of support for people. The new deal was one of the worst policies that prolonged the hurt. Terrible because it really hurt the poorest people. It was a massive failure. I agree corporations in a crony capitalist environment should be checked for power, but that’s a band aid on the would. The real issue is again, the cronyism. I don't know why you're getting down-voted. This is so true. The cost+fines for speeding can be a whole paycheck for the average person. The fines for fleecing the consumer by corporations is a couch money to them. Fines should be calculated starting with the ""fleeced"" amount, then a percentage of the quarterly revenues of the offending company. Honestly I’m not sure that either of those are the right term for what I was trying to convey, I was trying to say that the cost of infrastructure in general pays itself off when people use it, by saving us wasted time and productivity. It still has a real dollar cost to build, but by building infrastructure, we cut the production and transportation costs of American made goods, which should be saving us money as a nation. Whatever the correct term for an asset that has a cost up front but saves or even makes you money as it is used. It is straight forward to identify patterns and hard evidence of companies with large market share where they're manipulating markets or restricting competition or cartelizing. In many cases, the competition that is suffering will literally provide the evidence themselves. You're assuming this oversight body needs to be a ""know it all"" agency. It doesn't. Just as a court doesn't need to know every single aspect of life of every human being in order to be able to work. The court just needs evidence of a law being broken. Need something? If a roll is a roll and a toll is a toll, how many tolls do I need before I can eat some rolls? Well being 30 years old, I’ve noticed a big change in most peoples perception of this corruption over the last few years. That’s why I feel like something big is going to happen soon and I pray it’s in our (the peoples) favor. Enough is enough with all these corrupted geriatric’s running the show they won’t even be around to see the ending of 😠 Very well said Bingo You didn't really say anything regarding the topic. Academic qualifications don't impress me. Too many idiots out there with phds. And it’s amazing how many people are ignorant to this type of behavior when it’s par for the course. This is a repeating pattern for most government work it seems >No one thinks there's a conspiracy Plenty of people within this thread think she's beholden to the banks. >That's not a conspiracy. It literally is. You're saying that Yellen is in cahoots with the banks because she takes speaking fees from them. >I'd absolutely shift my focus and attention to ensuring my side hustle continues 1. Glad you're not in office, then, though to be frank, it appears that many in public office have the same attitude. 2. Her continuing to get speaking fees from banks is basically predicated on her remaining a respected person within the finance/economics space. 3. Yellen has repeatedly come out in support for higher interest rates, which is [likely less profitable for banks](https://www.stlouisfed.org/on-the-economy/2016/may/banks-more-profitable-interest-rates-high-low). So, your accusation that Yellen is a stooge for wall street is that she got paid to do events for them. Guess that makes J Lo a [stooge for the Chinese](https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/private-concerts-fees-performers-1324577/) or Bill Clinton a [stooge for wall street](https://edition.cnn.com/2016/02/05/politics/hillary-clinton-bill-clinton-paid-speeches/) or Obama, [too?](https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/351138-obama-making-big-money-speeches-to-wall-street-firms-report/) Fact is famous people get paid to do speeches all the time, and it simply isn't all, or even mostly or significantly, corruption or evidence of corruption. Banks and businesses have relevant people speak at their events. As much as you'd like to pretend that's not a conspiracy, believing in it doesn't make it not a conspiracy. You're bought in to the conspiracy that Yellen is beholden to banks, on frankly next to zero evidence. Edit: >You're saying its a ""conspiracy theory"" to believe a person cares more about theor money than they do their job description. No, I'm saying it's a conspiracy theory to think that earning money from big banks (or big companies in general) is reliant upon being a stooge for them while in office. People who are famous are often paid large fees by businesses to speak at their events, regardless of whether they ever even held power or would be in a position to help them. Al Gore was VP at one point, a largely neutered/powerless position, yet was raking in large speaking fees from corporations after he left office. Where is the tit for tat there? And the logical follow up question is: if big companies are willing to spend money to hire people to speak for them regardless of whether that speaker was in a position to help them or not, why do you think that Yellen was in their pockets, and not just another famous person they hired to speak to them, only with actually relevant things to talk to their business about? Or, we can think about how the Fed is not a single person making decisions, and that the chair is not god-elect, and that there are multiple people within the group making decisions... meaning that she wasn't as all-powerful to control rates as people *on a finance forum* somehow think. Surprising how little people on a finance forum actually seem to know about the world of finance, huh? Or, alternatively, we can also look at Yellen's public disclosure statement and see the companies she received fees from, and how much she was paid, and then have some follow up questions based off of that. So let's do that. [Here's the form](https://extapps2.oge.gov/201/Presiden.nsf/PAS+Index/C22B882BBDC40AC78525864F008106AB/$FILE/Yellen,%20Janet%20L.%20AMENDEDfinal%20278.pdf). From that list, here are companies that paid her to speak at their company that stick out to me because they're not financial institutions and thus don't really stand to benefit or lose from her action on rates: Cisco, Experian, University of San Francisco, Association of Foreign Investors in Real Estate, BCA Research, National Association of Corporate Directors, World Knowledge Forum, Caixin, National Retail Federation, PwC, Entrust, Hong Kong Development Council, Texas Christian University, Institute for Supply Management, CFA Society of Atlanta, Fiserv, Google, HSM, Salesforce, Pillsbury Winthrop Shaw Pittman, PMI, Deloitte, Princeton University, Washington Speakers Bureau. Now, sure, she had a lot of speaking events at banks. But... no shit, she's in the world of finance, so of course her most relevant experience would be useful in speaking events at financial institutions. However, that's a list of 24 groups/companies that paid significant speaker fees to Yellen **without** her really having the ability to give them anything in return. What is the Hong Kong Development Council getting from paying Yellen $270k to speak to them, other than her as a speaker? What about PwC - what financial benefit did they receive as their tit for their tat of $225k for speaking fees? How about the manufacturing company HSM - what did they get for their $156k? Or Entrust, a software company, for their $156k? Google for their $113k? Fiserv, Salesforce, PWSP (the law firm above), or Deloitte for their $68k fees? If we can see through her disclosure that her going rate for companies that didn't stand to explicitly benefit from her actions as Fed chair is around $150-300k for the top end or $68k on the low end (presumably for shorter engagements), then is it surprising that Goldman, Citi, Citadel, etc. are paying her similar amounts per speech for them? How do you explain the fact that she was getting paid for speaking engagements at companies that she couldn't have helped at the same high speaking fee rates that she was charging to banks, who she could theoretically help? What's their incentive to pay, aside from having her as a speaker? And if they have that incentive, then why wouldn't a company in the industry she worked in also share that incentive? So your theory is that they paid him for speaking in 2017 and after when he could no longer do anything for them? Or how about bill Clinton giving speeches in the last 10 years for speeches to banks? He's been out of office for more than a decade for some of those. Timothy geithner still gets speaking fees from banks. So does Bernanke. Turns out that banks and other groups value high profile people speaking at their events, especially ones that can speak with some knowledge of their business. I'd love to hear your theory on why someone like Al Gore, who never really had any power, being vice president, was getting paid 6 figures per event to speak. h-index 🤣 Is this some half-witted comment that you came up with? Martha was convicted by a federal jury for insider trading. Many people want rich people to do time for their crimes much like poor people often do. And yet it would appear that you would prefer that Martha be given a pass? That is very weak. Good one bro Seems to me like we have two options: blame OPEC+ for oil prices, or blame companies for keeping margins high, and I just wonder how much responsibility we can reasonably expect from either group to uphold the security of the citizen. Profits over people every time has gotten us to where we are So companies have recovered to even higher net income numbers than precovid, is what the numbers are telling us? Oh wow! Different multi-billion dollar profit years. Here’s a conflicting information directly from YOUR given source: Annual Gross Profit 2019- $53.7B 2020- $30.9B 2021- $64.2B https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/XOM/exxon/gross-profit My point is that oil companies are making more profit than they did before because of inflation and added padding on top of that. What was your point again? I love that in your brain a 50% profit increase over pre pandemic is somehow proving your point lmao. Human nature and thousands of mis-steps over a long period of time (few years and the processes developed pre-pandemic) It’s hard to point the blame at one person because we got here. At a high level the reason inflation is running so high is because consumer demand bounced back STRONG in 2021 and never eased up but accelerated in certain industries. On the flip side we had business “just in time business” models completely disrupted and production and supply chains halted in 2020. What does this mean for goods in high demand? Less parts floating around, business paying more for those parts because they want them (no one is patiently waiting their turn) and then in turn those extra costs being passed to the consumer. Now this is only one of the many forces in our economy causing inflation. All contributing to general price increases. As a result, the fed is raising interest rates (making the price of money more expensive) in hopes to force business slow spending and in turn make consumers spend less to let the economy catch up to where demand is - however, this is a fine line between forcing a recession and getting us back to “where we should be” https://www.reddit.com/r/Anticonsumption/comments/v94b7l/no_steppy_on_sneky/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf Perhaps gas stations price closely because their costs are also very close lol What you're saying is the equivalent of ""why are Cheezits priced so similarly in Walmart and Kroger? Price fixing smh"" Well, that is not sector-wide since there are only around 15 countries involved. OPEC creates a huge incentive for inside countries to cheat on their quotas and for outside countries to produce more supply. Yes there are a number of factors but if you honestly think all or any of them have warranted a 4x percentage increase that is insane. Corporations are obviously trying to make up for lost profits and others have followed suit. They remained profitable during the peak of the pandemic. And then continued to break record profits. So why massively increase it *now* when circumstances have improved? It is painfully obvious that they just want more. Never has a monetary policy like this ever existed. Trillions in direct checks, 0% interest rates, bond purchases in the billions per month. Gas on an already burning fire So you wouldn’t mind if we go back to Trump and a Republican Congress then? Since voting doesn’t change anything I have a bridge I want to sell. Interested? You think I don’t know that? Fucking Bush rakes in as much as Clinton, and both are worthless intellectually and financially, but you’re so tribal about politics you’d be mad when you see how much the former makes and get defensive over the latter, and I can say that because the projection was 4k. A corporation paying a government official 500k to speak that also has a say in policies that affect their profits is not the same as a school paying that person for a commencement speech. If you don’t see the conflict of interest there then 🤷‍♂️ Congrats on defending bribery. Sadly that level of simping would’ve been more worthwhile on some Twitch streamer instead of Janet. “What we need here is more Donald Trump”, said no reasonable person ever. Corporate monopolies are anti-free market. That’s straight up Limbaugh falsehood. New deal policies kept the power of the rich in check and that’s why they fail against it endlessly. The term you're looking for is [Capital Expenditures or CapEx](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_expenditure) ""It is considered a capital expenditure when the asset is newly purchased or when money is used towards extending the useful life of an existing asset, such as repairing the roof."" 5. Next. [deleted] You’re dead right. Change is absolutely coming. And it is not because people across American of all ages have changed their minds. It is primarily because people of a certain age see things differently than those older them. Things are not getting worse. It’s just that young people have bought the message sold to them by the media that things are getting worse. What will happen is young people as they come to power, will absolutely agitate for change. They’ll tax corporations more despite economists broadly disagreeing that this accomplishes anything. They’ll increase regulation. They’ll enhance social benefits regardless of their effectiveness. And the entrepreneurial and gifted in this country will take their best elsewhere. Because some other country will decide to be a beacon of a freer form of capitalism. And America will decline. And people will use their sense of entitlement to divide what spoils are left and blame the prior generations for their trouble. I mean sure, we have taxation and regulation and social programs for years. And they even have value. But this particular generation seems to be convinced that 1) something is wrong with our country because my life is hard, and 2) the thing that is wrong is “capitalism” and 3) since I don’t know what “capitalism” is I’ll punish anything I think it might be. So the new generation that thinks itself wise will, like a surgeon, start exploratory surgery on a healthy patient and they’ll only quit when the patient is dead and they’ll declare, “see, I told you he was sick! I was right!” This will happen. But all that was needed is an evolving sense of economic and regulatory focus, and the patience to see those actions bear fruit. Capitalism isn’t a system. It’s just the activity of people freely exchanging. It’s just people in action, economically. But it needs constraint if you want a deliberate result. But the young generation seems ready to throw the baby out with the bath water. So be it. I’ll be fine. I can’t convince them they are wrong. Quel dommage. [deleted] Dude lol you’re super dumb. Like, suuuper dumb. Come back tomorrow and reread your comments and you’ll realize how dumb you are. Most? Are you financially illiterate? The bulk of her income comes from speaking engagements so she prioritizes keeping those clients happy, just like any savvy person would. That's all. You're saying its a ""conspiracy theory"" to believe a person cares more about theor money than they do their job description. I can just as easily say it's a ""conspiracy theory"" to say she care more about her job duties than she does her own financial gain. We simply can't read her mind, so nobody can say which is true. HOWEVER, if we look at human behavior across history, the VAST majority of people in power display selfish and corrupt tendencies when given the chance. To think Yellen is in the minority seems more unfounded to me Hahaha. Nice deflection. I don’t give a shit about people getting paid to speak once they leave their positions of power. Doing it while currently holding the secretary of treasury position is shady and shouldn’t be allowed. This goes for any government position that has the ability to alter policy on behalf of who’s lining their pockets. [deleted] Yes... The net income of any successful company, by traditional definitions, will go up over time... That's how it works. Do you know what ""gross profit"" is? Do you know what ""net income"" is? Citing gross profit exposes you as someone who does not understand the difference. Gross profit is *profit"" as it is known colloquially. That would be net income. wow, listen its obvious you don't operate in markets or finance. Yes, the oil companies are benefitting but they aren't causing inflation or even NEED to pad their margins. Supply/demand Demand is up. I'm not trying to prove any point other than that the commenter to whom I replied cherry-picked a bullshit stat. Cheers. Thanks for some help. So near the Autobahn it’s magically 30 Cent per liter more expensively sure. And closely to the holidays it gets more expensive too. And Friday evening. Bullshit! It literally is sector wide... Because we (we as in most countries in the world) closed the global economy for about two years, which caused a drop in supply, then we increased fiscal spending to keep people afloat during the pandemic. The economy rebounded but supply chains kept getting restricted, there was more money in the economy chacing fewer goods, on top of that a war broke out a region that is a major supplier of food and fuel. That’s what’s driving inflation, it’s not a US only issue and in fact here in the US what we’re seeing is nothing compared to what is happening or is about to happen in the developing world. Hell even with all of this inflation, we’re still seeing empty selves and supply issues meaning that markets could bare even higher prices at least in the short run. The FED just announced a .75% hike in interest rates, this is big and might be enough to tame inflation but it will likely also trigger a recession to cool off prices at the cost of higher unemployment. It hasn't though lol. Nothing that matters. Just less ""mean tweets"" Did voting change him in the first place? He lost the popular vote, & was still placed in office. Until the USA gets rid of the 2 pro war parties in power, voting does nothing except fool people into believing electoralism does anything. We could use some more Trump-like policies, but not Trump himself. > Corporate monopolies are anti-free market. Yeah, that was my point as well I agree with you. Large corporations are a problem. But getting rid of sound money, and cronyism caused this. That mixed with cronyism is the real issue. We need to reign in the government power over the monopoly on money, and regulatory power. Take a look at what happened when we got off sound money. [sound money](https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/?fbclid=IwAR0omSypniZ5IVgtijKIrfJUOVVal0thf2SLRf5Yo-5zAk3gG8nisjPaf3c) Have you heard of the broken window fallacy? Because saying WW2 and the new deal brought us out of the depression is that same logic. Instead of clearing out the system, government redirected production to places where it may not have been needed. If the market had time, the production would have been redirected by prices. Prices tell us where resources are needed most. Adulterating that causes more pain. 100% I have realized the left and right both agree on our political financial landscape being absolute shit. In your first comment you made points about the topic at hand. Not in the second comment. Reread it and tell me where you made a point regarding the topic at hand. And why would I be insecure? You've never met a moron in a Phd program? It's the morons who are getting a Phd in order to cover for their insecurities. Not all of them of course, but a significant fraction. Thank you for your contribution to this conversation. What’s the least corrupt section of government work? >Nice deflection. Didn't deflect shit. He was paid for speaking engagements after he was out of office. >Doing it while currently holding the secretary of treasury position is shady She didn't. Yellen was treasury secretary starting in 2021. She was chair of the fed until 2018. Between 2018 and 2021 is when she was doing the speaking circuit. She isn't currently giving speeches for money, and hasn't ever gotten paid for speeches given while she holds governmental office. >This goes for any government position that has the ability to alter policy on behalf of who’s lining their pockets. Sure, but this literally isn't happening, so I'm not sure what your point is. You're arguing into the abyss by making up scenarios that haven't happened. That was my thought process. Thank you for clarifying. Where did I state they were different? I merely posted exactly as found from the sources. The difference would be the actual NUMBERS that you posted and then I posted from the exact same source YOU provided. Don’t even waste your time anymore because 1) in other comments you already stated you were “down with this conversation” and 2) you use slurs. So due to your poor behavior and word choice, your voice is untrustworthy. Goodbye. Demand is up and supply is being intentionally kept low. Totally not greed, nope. Np- happy to answer any questions. >So near the Autobahn it’s magically 30 Cent per liter more expensively sure Huh, I wonder if land near the Autobahn is more expensive than rural land, and thus the gas stations there command higher prices because they paid more for the convenience of being colocated where most cars are. >And closely to the holidays it gets more expensive too. And Friday evening. Show me the data on this. And then show me how that data correlates to oil prices in general. You say that but companies *still* remained profitable during those times. And continued to break records. Why do you keep ignoring this? >on top of that a war broke out a region that is a major supplier of food and fuel. It's moreso that oil companies refuse to increase production, artifically reducing supply. Also, why don't companies that have already seen record profits just make less than before, instead of forcing consumers to suffer? *That* is driving inflation. Pure greed. What an ignorant comment. Women are about to lose the right to abortion because of Trump’s judicial appointments. Yeah who cares about all those women losing the right to abortion. Voting does nothing 🙄 I have to agree. The problem is, Trump’s image has, I fear, poisoned the well on many normal policies he championed. I think of corporations like a pituitary tumor. Maybe they can enhance growth, but if they grow too large they can kill you. Cronyism is the end result of anything where the only goal is profit. Eliminating competition, monopoly, oligopoly etc. are where it ends up when left to it’s own devices. It’s insane how much left and right wing people actually agree on shit. Like so much so that a third party catering to those basic agreements could be disruptive to the system. Dunno if it’d change anything, but yeah lol [deleted] Hope you get out of whatever funk you’re in You're retarded if you think supply is intentionally being kept low by companies like Exxon. You have zero proof of that fact and abundant evidence that it is false. Supply is being ""kept low"" (BS) b/c oil went negative per future contract (granted only a few future contracts) during Covid and a corporations first duty is to its shareholders but in this case too much supply was shut down and then Russia invaded Ukraine and that equals oil shortage and now China is coming out from lockdown with more demand. Oil has always been a boom/bust economy but Exxon or Chevron, you name your company knows if oil goes too high the world goes into recession. If it drops too low they have to hedge or lose money. They are ramping up supply as fast as possible but Ukraine/Russia really was the last straw. I wonder if the reason is that one company owns all the gas stations near the autobahn. The ADAC says the monopoly is to blame. https://www1.wdr.de/nachrichten/raststaetten-teurer-als-autohoefe-100.amp Land near the autobahn is actually cheap compared to land near cities. This adac article also mentiones cash grab as responsible for the many price changes during the day or on holidays. https://www.adac.de/verkehr/tanken-kraftstoff-antrieb/tipps-zum-tanken/spritpreise-tagesverlauf/ I’m not ignoring that, we ramped up fiscal spending during covid. Some programs were good like boosted childhood tax credits (which lowered childhood poverty and food insecurity by nearly 50%), others like PPP were not so great, some like boosted unemployment was largely a mixed bag. Regardless all of these programs were meant give money to people to stay afloat during the pandemic and to keep spending to a avoid a recession. Keep spending translates into higher sales, and some companies saw a boom in profits (especially tech giants as the pandemic largely boosted our reliance on them). What will happen now with hikes in interest rates is that we will likely see lower profits (the last tech earning call was a bloodbath, this was the beginning of much worse that is yet to come), but also higher unemployment. In short this is what happened: pandemic shut down caused a drop of gdp, governments spent a fuck ton to keep people afloat, economy reopened fast and prices increased because supply was still restricted and a war broke out while there was a lot more money in the economy. What is happening now: spending is being phased out in much of the world, central banks are hiking interest rates, most places have opened up but there are still some restrictions (like in some key places in China). What will probably happen: some form of recession but inflation under control. The developing world should really brace themselves because they will feel the blunt of it. brainwashed ppl like you put most incompetent, dementia, teleprompter president in white house. whole world is enjoying taking it in rear now. GL Did voting stop women having the right to an abortion? If your ""rights"" can be taken away, they are really rights. If the system you base your rights on can be taken away, then it seems as good as anytime to withdraw from this broken system. I'll ask again as you don't seem to like to answer; when has voting ever made any meaningful changes? I am convinced that they purposefully pin us against one another (left and right) in order to retain their power over us. Together wed be a force they cant handle and so they have no choice but to resort to a main stream media agenda to keep us LEFT and RIGHT. Does anyone else here agree with this? I desperately want a third party that would take a rational approach. I looked around for some in 2016 and all I could find were not that. I mean, I'll just reiterate. Corporate profits are a function of Kalecki's equation, not ""erroneous, opportunistic price increases."" You're essentially dabbling in pseudo-science. Ok, well you seemed to be ignoring supply and demand. I'm not in a funk. Where did you get that impression? Just because I called someone out who rather than defending what they said goes straight to their supposed qualifications? 😂 It's pathetic that people, instead of just focusing on the topic at hand, just start bickering over qualifications, insults, and ""I'm sorry that you're unhappy with your life"" and similar BS. You instantly lose when you start doing that. Honestly pathetic lol Sure thing bud. Those unused drilling permits? Clearly non existent. Econ types always so sensitive of their soft science Ok. You’re totally disqualified from meaningful conversation due to your personal, insulting attacks. And also the use of the R-word. Also in the article you posted: > Autohof concept, which is also an ensemble of gas station and fast-food restaurant, cannot be compared. While a motorway service station is open around the clock and always offers the same service, the truck stops can close at night. >In addition, the motorway service areas are under the authority of the Federal Office for Goods Transport, to which the companies also have to pay concession fees. The truck stops don't have to do that and that drives up the costs. The counterargument is also present, you just didn't mention it. >This adac article also mentiones cash grab as responsible for the many price changes It actually does not explicitly say that. However, i do find it interesting that the German model has price changes throughout the day - this is different than the model in the US. A demand based model is interesting - I'm curious if station refilling generally happens at night, which might help to explain why this might occur - as the gas station gets lower on gas, they raise the price. My portfolio is doing great, sorry to hear that Congrats you just realized rights don’t actually exist and are the byproduct of political systems. To answer your questions, that’s why voting matters. Take care [deleted] Breaking ground on new drilling sites would take years. I'm done with this conversation. You're in the wrong sub. *Das ist blankes Kalkül: Die Mineralölkonzerne versuchen, mit den häufigen Preissprüngen ihren Gewinn anzukurbeln.* It does explicitly state that the price the station pays has nothing to do with the consumer price. The stations never run low on gas and do not raise the price bade on that. Also there are a lot of 24/7 stations that do not have the higher prices. The concessions might have some impact on price but who the fuck want‘s to tell me with a straight face that the gas companies do not want to maximize their profits and will do shady things to do so? Same thing If you drive into Austria. Close to the border the gas is not that much cheaper than in Germany. But as soon as you go a little more inland it gets significantly cheaper. It’s simple. Profil maximizing and price fixing. Explicitly or implicitly. Doesn't seem like a great argument for voting. Sounds like an indictment of those broken shithole. Take care You think I know about kalecki's equation from some blog post I read? I've put a lot of hours into studying econ, not just 1 or 2 hundred. It's not surprising to me that household savings are down, since this is the direction the fed is always pushing. Regardless of all this other stuff you and I are saying, corporate profits are determined by Kalecki's equation and the general prices of goods and services are determined by supply and demand. There is no such as thing as ""erroneous price increases."" It would take years. Better to not and never increase supply? Have you tried engaging your brain once in awhile? I guess if you don’t care about having rights it’s not 🤷‍♂️ [deleted] Nah, I just want actual change not predicated on billionaires choosing what to get changed. Ruling class will never willingfully relinquish their power, nor give an avenue for such change without direct action. In 10 years, come back to me when you are arguing voting does anything when they are removing what little privileges they have left for you. Nah, you're trying to pull the wool over my eyes. Show me an econ paper that refers to what you're talking about, ""erroneous, opportunistic prices increases."" ""Not determined by, explained by."" So Kalecki's equation explains it, then? So I can have a full understanding of what is driving corporate profits with just Kalecki's equation? So why do I need anything else? Nah, you're just a fcking idiot with credentials. Just another among millions. Removing or enacting privileges doesn’t constitute change? Ok lol. [deleted] I see I have a stalker. You're good at ad hominem. Econ, unfortunately... You know, if you look carefully at was has been said here... I just reacted to some of your use of language, specifically ""erroneous, opportunistic price increases."" You didn't 100% say that that is going on, but you strongly implied it. That little bit is pseudo-science. Otherwise your argument may just be fine. We're not really disagreeing on much of substance." Warren Buffett is now richer than Mark Zuckerberg after tech titan lost $31 billion following Meta's stock crash,2629,https://www.businessinsider.com/warren-buffet-richer-than-mark-zuckerberg-after-meta-stock-rout-2022-2,"Damn. Buffets also richer than me now, too Can you imagine losing $30B and the story about it is that you’re not richer than one other specific person, rather than being poorer than every other person on the planet? Wow. It’s almost like we were calculating his UNREALIZED GAINS when determining who was richer The classic tale of the tortoise and the hare cut. Who cares?! Net worth aside, Buffet built his fortune (and subsequently, gave most of it away) by investing in companies that build real things that benefit humanity. Zuckerberg invented the “Like” button and spent his subsequent years filtering what content is considered real and fake. To use him in the same sentence as Buffet is a sacrilege. Is there a ranking of how rich someone is based on tangible assets and not in the way that goes puff in a sec? Oh no! Poor Zuck! I'm sure he's stockpiling cheap ramen planning his next move. Maybe Metasoup? Buffet is like the Turtle in the story of rabbit and turtle race. Who fucking cares? Hopefully he's shorting FB We really need to tax all personal gains over $1 billion at 99% Facebook will crash hard below $180 before end of March before it ever goes $300+ again. Mark my words. WSB DOWN WITH ZUCK. DOWN WITH ZUCK. Not “now”. It should say that Buffet is back to being richer than Zuckerberg. As it always was. Warren ""BTFD"" Buffet? Warren, you did it! You win the capitalism game! America Struggling…..News: One billionaire is now more rich than another billionaire. :facepalm: Zucky had all of his eggs in one basket. Diversify, right? Fuck em both. I hope he texted him, “Suck it Zuck!” for good measure… Is it 31 billion of actual Cash or from his personal bank account or are we talking interweb money/stocks and assets ? Which if it’s just interweb money , does it actually change his life in anyway .. or are we so greedy these days losing stocks and trade options is the same as cash ? I’m asking a question because I want someone to explain it to me , how does this loss actually effect his way of life ? Fuck Zuck! Omg! I couldn't care less. After a certain point, you have so much money, you’re just spinning your wheels. Why? I'll bet he wants back all the tax he paid previously on his gainz. Good, and I wish I could say that to bad haircut’s face. Sign of the world become a fair place? I really hope that doesn’t matter to him. Apparently money doesn’t affect happiness over ~$60,000 a year(maybe a bit more now with inflation). The only important thing these people can do with their money is make a positive impact. Not in the article but also a true fact, Warren Buffett called up the weird boy and said suck it Zuckerfuck! HELL YEA THATS WHY IM TEAM #BUFFET WERE EATIN OUT HERE WHILE THE ZUCC SUCCS (xd) ARE DOWN AF, HELL YEA No one gives a shit. Let the pedophilic billionares die. [deleted] Yay? Who fucking cares bitch I’m hungry Buffet's gonna be the richest man even when he dead. Is Dogecoin the only one up today? Both creepy. Mostly indifferent to this development. I NEVER EVER miss an opportunity to say FUCK the ZUCK Zuckerberg and gates and buffett, amateurs can fucking suck it when I make long distance calls, will they be monitored or is it on the honor system? The real OG That’s crazy he is also richer than me Karma Rich getter richer. What's new? TIL Warren Buffet’s primary role in raids is mainly to buff the tanks and melee DPS—spot healing during the encounter itself. It’s nuts. In other news.. Zuckerberg is richer than 99.999999999% of the world It’s a real life tortoise and the ~~hare~~ lizard-creature fable! Who cares This is the way... that’s a good thing Literally means nothing “A Big Mac lasts forever, you are what you eat”- Warren Buffett Cream rises to the top. I would argue Buffet to be the better long term bet as a businessperson. As far as successes, it seems Facebook, outside of acquisition, is the only real idea he has put forward. that thumbnail lol.... Thats so crazy. Z-berg went from having billions of dollars, to losing billions of dollars and still having billions of dollars left over. He can actually get at far more of his money as well. Knowing I’ll likely never reach a net worth that’s even as much as what Warren pays in taxes every year is crazy to think about He was always richer because he has a soul Life expectancy and standard of living are highest in countries that have quality healthcare that is affordable and food, water, and shelter. The countries with higher SoL and LE than the US also consume less than the US. Plastic, oil, and banking systems have nothing to do with it. Weird flex but ok Should I get excited over which billionaire is richer? I’m just relieved that maybe I won’t have to hear zucker say “sweet baby rays” again in a seductive tone. I feel like the whole Meta move was a bad move. Then again, it’s not like they’re going anywhere anytime soon. 31 billion is not enough, zuck the cuck needs to lose more My man. Buffett always preached “invest in things, not ideas”… who’s laughing now fellow billionaire? My solution for 1% ers is easy. I learned it playing Monopoly when I was 5. At the end of the game even if you’ve won you put all the money back so someone else can play. Oprah shouldn’t buy a school she should buy a country. And instead of all these billionaires shooting themselves into space why not send money directly to families that can’t eat. It seems so simple. You won… get over yourself … you can’t possibly spend or waste that much money. Peace out. Amen Volatility! Unpredictable stocks are!!! Yay! I’m so happy for him! This wealth competition is so great! It was Buffet in the Study with the Rope. 🤯 Who is Warren buffet? Who cares? $31 billion?!! That's more than my dad made in his whole life. Same here! I don’t know how this happened Did you own FB stock? This might've contributed to Buffet also over taking you. Next time you need to sell the news and buy the tip and to the Mars and where's the beef. #metoo I’m closing the gap between my wealth and Zuckerberg’s. Between Warren and myself, we have donated billions of dollars to charity. Ha ha 😑 If I owe some bank $3000, that’s my problem. If I owe some bank $30M, that’s the bank’s problem. If I owe some bank $30B, that’s the government’s problem. Well, chances are someone with a -$30bn net worth would probably not seem very poor at all. Iirc there was a probably-fictional Trump story about how he pointed out a random homeless guy and said he probably had a higher net worth. A similar principle could probably apply to a newly qualified doctor if considering the student loans. could you imagine having $30b to lose in the first place like damn. >Can you imagine losing $30B and the story about it is that you’re not richer than one other specific person, rather than being poorer than every other person on the planet? In reality nothing happened because neither sold their position. The paper value of their holdings changed. He didnt really “lose” nor gained anything— the media just like to troll and clickbait. They obviously refer to his illiquid shares valuation in FB, which he didnt sell yet. Considering these guys just get realized loans leveraged off these “unrealized gains” to avoid taxes - it’s really the only way to measure their wealth. That’s what we’re doing with Buffett too. It’s still just his equity You apparently. I guess if you consider reinsurance a real thing that benefits humanity. He's also donates A LOT more compared to Zuckerberg. Buffett also invests in diabetes causing Coca-Cola, oil companies, shitty airlines (which he dumped), and greedy banks. I might not like Zuck, but he is insanely bright and far younger than anyone else in the top 20 richest. I don't think Buffet would even consider himself bright, he just has unparalleled discipline and patience. Your a moron. Buffet is an investor. It doesn’t matter if the company is morally correct or incorrect if he sees the company is priced under his metrics of value he will buy just listen to his annual shareholder meetings he literally saids this. No matter how much you hate the zuck he has over 2Billion people using his products daily. It has created hundreds of thousands of self-made millionaires indirectly. Their assets aren’t public information. All we know about are the required disclosures of the positions they hold in publicly traded companies. No news outlet has a fucking clue what anyones actual net worth is. They just guess and report on fluctuations of the value of their publicly disclosed holdings. Hence… this is not news other than “Facebook stock price drops” I mean its kind of significant news to post on a news sharing website. Also this is sort of the finance subreddit. You, apparently! Someone who better knows Buffet and his life might correct me, but I don’t think he would take on a short position ever, really. He espouses value investing: holding a long position on stock he believes to be undervalued, and selling it again once it’s trading above its intrinsic value. for those who know This has nothing to do with the interwebs. The stock market existed long before the internet. It generally doesn’t, that money he’s losing is all in stock options, so it isn’t actually net cash until they sell. Most insanely wealthy people will take out loans against their investments to live off of and generally pay it back with little interest because the market will generally make up the difference. So technically they aren’t losing money per se, their “net worth” goes down. None of these billionaires have billions of liquid cash available, hell I wouldn’t be surprised if most had less than a million in liquid cash. Greed. It’s always greed. I see that a lot, but if you can’t pay your bills on $70k a year or you’re just struggling then $70k will not make you happy. Hell, in the SF Bay Area $80k is considered the poverty line. Strong username to post content ratio You mean buffet? He is in the process of giving away his fortune to charities and is half way there. He isnt leaving the fortune to his kids. **Warren Edward Buffett ( BUFF-itt; born August 30, 1930) is an American business magnate, investor, and philanthropist. He is currently the chairman and CEO of Berkshire Hathaway.** More details here: *This comment was left automatically (by a bot). If I don't get this right, don't get mad at me, I'm still learning!* [^(opt out)](https://www.reddit.com/r/wikipedia_answer_bot/comments/ozztfy/post_for_opting_out/) ^(|) [^(delete)](https://www.reddit.com/r/wikipedia_answer_bot/comments/q79g2t/delete_feature_added/) ^(|) [^(report/suggest)](https://www.reddit.com/r/wikipedia_answer_bot) ^(|) [^(GitHub)](https://github.com/TheBugYouCantFix/wiki-reddit-bot) We will never financially recover from this. This guy stonks. Name checks out I want these problems Straight from the mouth of babes. https://youtu.be/PzCnnAbaHKM Just scroll to 4:20 (nice). That doesn’t make any sense even if Rich people had billions in debt they still have the colateral to back that > A similar principle could probably apply to a newly qualified doctor if considering the student loans. That's also why net worth in a vacuum isn't that important. THANK YOU! Jesus, this ""richest"" and ""richer"" idiocy!!! Elon Musk is the ""richest man in the world"" ... oh wait, the value of his stock went down ... It's almost as if he has the same money as he had when Tesla was going broke. (well not now because he sold a bunch to people who would pay a crapton of money to own the shares... but the principle is the same!) The paper value is reality [deleted] I mean don't we usually consider wealth what we own minus what we owe? It’s called a margin account you too can borrow against stocks. As long as the amount of money people are willing to pay for those assets doesn't drop... there are plenty of examples -- https://www.nytimes.com/1991/03/06/business/a-real-estate-fortune-dissolves.html GOOD ONE BRO sick burn 🔥 Well insurance is an important thing to making life less awful and reinsurance makes insurance companies work Lol. And high fructose Coca-Cola. Or Bank of America, everyone loves BoA. Gates Dawg and Warren B gotta regulate. Did he donate as much at age 37? Zuck pledged to donate 99% of his Meta shares and founded a non-profit called CZI. [deleted] You're right. Everyone should just ditch anything with plastic, most things that use energy, sugary drinks, places to store your money that you can access elsewhere, and insurance. Then life expectancy and standard of living would go through the roof! Your virtue signaling is exhausting. People who develop diabetes from drinking too much Coca Cola have themselves to blame, plus the company can still be profitable and provide enjoyment to people even if everyone drank it responsibly. Oil companies and banks certainly have their problems, but society would have been MUCH worse off without them and even with the innovation in green tech and decentralized finance, we’re nowhere close to being able to abandon them and have the same quality of life. We’re at a point where companies should not get to ignore the moral implications. The planet has finite resources and companies like fb and Coca Cola are affecting millions of people in negative ways. Something will have to be done one way or another. Really ? Every time you click on a rant you enter a web page on a website. website? How do you find said website yahoo or google ,and that goes over there and this goes over here. Google sells space advertising , google trades in the stock market … for ffs , seriously? Google is not just for whining and porn , although I like those also. Look up online marketing on google , and you might under stand what the grown ups are talking about . I’m living in Manhattan. If you can’t pay your bills with 70 or 80 k….you are spending to much on bills. Do you even lift brahs? Most of us have more time than he does to catch up or even surpass his wealth. That movie, ""Born Rich,"" is really terribly done because it's a rich kid's project instead of an actual professional documentary but it has some very cringe moments with lots of silver spoons like this gem right here. Uh, cash flow loans exist, I.e student loans that have no collateral backing. So it makes perfect sense. There are tons of individuals and corporations alike that have a negative net worth… That’s not how the rich people do it. They declare all their assets as belonging to offshore shell corporations somewhere in tax havens far from their governments nosey taxation and other shit. This way everything they own is obscured somewhere under some unknown company. On paper, to their home government, they look fucking worthless asset and money wise. In reality, their control in these private shell companies allows them full access to their assets. Cool shit. Stock value is a way to measure and weigh. It's more based on emotion than logic Which is why all the emotionally driven people who hate FB who are cheering and savvy investors see a 20% discount on a company whose revenue is up 35% Yes, one risks a negligible amount of capital/profit, one risks their house and life savings. Very similar They asked. I’m theory yes, but many people and businesses carry insurance because they are required to even if the policy isn’t very useful, insurance adjusters will do all kinds of sleazy things to avoid paying claims, coverage is often denied to those who need it most, and rates are super expensive relative to benefits. Just like being able to share pictures and life events with other people and make connections on a social platform sounds nice in theory. Nice one If you have the stats of when he was 37 then go ahead and present them...but according to Forbes, he donates over 20% of his wealth and plans to donate 99% when he dies. Zuckerberg falls in the 1-5% range. People like cigarettes, too. It's extremely profitable but I sure as shit would never invest in them and think poorly upon anyone who would. A lot of the tobacco companies realized they couldn't expand anymore in the USA with the way our culture has changed, so instead they market to children in Africa. a) we would be WAY better off with less plastic and investing more in renewables b) sugary drinks suck and prey on children and raise healthcare costs and diabetes. They also cause a ton of waste. [Here's one guy that would agree.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2ZLS1V3iMw) c) Use a Credit Union cause big banks suck ass I doubt Warren Buffet even understands climate change let alone why he would invest in it. All this dude knows is where to put money for consistent returns and every finance bro idolizes him for his profitable consumerism picks that print money instead of investing in real innovation. There's a reason why Elon Musk is the wealthiest man in the world at age 50. Maybe in 20 years when we are fucked by climate change you'll start to care. What the actual fuck are you rambling on about? Lol good luck with that! Use all the time and effort you want >Most of us have more time than he does I'm not sure he's ever going to die at this point You could have 10 lifetimes and I still don’t believe you’d have half his wealth but I wish you all the luck in the world. It’s not about time at all it’s knowing what to do with your money and he definitely has that down to a science. There are but Trump isn’t one of them an no individual has a networth in the negative billions it would be imposible to accrue that much debt without the assets to back It. Specially since the super rich don’t want to have cash flow and pay taxes on it Please google USA Global Tax System The stock market at its core is about finding a price. Whatever price people are willing to sell/buy at is the true price today. There is value in knowing that, but you're right, it's not everything. You are talking about the perception that currently the price is low and value investors see it as an opportunity for short to medium-term gain in FB. I can see the logic in those sentiments, but that's what they are right now, projections. Both views have value, but they are telling you different things. Essentially they are the answer to different questions. What is my value today vs. what is my future value? Boots gotta lick itself Technically he cares ABOUT people caring, not necessarily of the fact, which is different. I also hate that people care about this stuff. If I found this out randomly strolling down the street while looking at squirrels fucking, I would continue watching the squirrels fuck and immediately forget about the other thing. Although, maybe I'm gay for squirrels. Who knows such things. The entire insurance industry is a scam, they do everything they can to not pay regardless of how authentic the issue is. Zuck pledged to give away 99% of his FB shares. He doesn't need to do it at age 37. Buffet is like 90, of course he is going to give away more of his net worth. I don't particularly like Zuck but this comparison is stupid. My point stands that life expectancy and standard of living are only so high because we use plastic, oil, banking systems, etc. I don't drink soda, minute maid, Dasani, or any of the other coke brands, but they're big for a reason- lots of people drink it and that's not on Buffett. Not going to lie ….I lost , myself ,halfway through all that 😂 Luckily that’s already what I do 😉. Except, I’m more like the Charlie Munger of the firm. The coke cans and mcd burgers are the secret to his health If you have time (and can thus leverage compound interest), it is definitely about time. If I define a lifetime as 30 years, each year I invest $1,000 (adjusted for Inflation) into the stock market Repeat for 10 lifetimes (300 yrs) I'll end up with just shy of 10 trillion dollars (adjusted for Inflation) > It’s not about time at all it’s knowing what to do with your money and he definitely has that down to a science. It's also about having money. Buffet comes from very old money, he was always rich. He of course is also a genius but you are never going to turn, say, 100 000 € a year into 10 million let alone more Fair enough, I actually read the thread above regarding a doctor with negative net worth and thought we weren’t speaking strictly with billionaires Search tax evasion vs tax avoidance >The stock market at its core is about finding a price. Whatever price people are willing to sell/buy at is the true price today. There is value in knowing that, but you're right, it's not everything. Key word being: today Emotion runs through everything like a fire but at the end of the week, month, year the stock reacts based on fundamentals. >You are talking about the perception that currently the price is low and value investors see it as an opportunity for short to medium-term gain in FB. I can see the logic in those sentiments, but that's what they are right now, projections. Their core metrics are the strongest they've been. Revenue is wayyy up. Profit is up. That's a strong buy signal especially when the stock is at a discount from previous cost. >Both views have value, but they are telling you different things. Essentially they are the answer to different questions. What is my value today vs. what is my future value? You're missing the point: just because emotionally driven valuation pushes something down 20-40% that doesn't mean it's justified in the long term and its up to investors to identify such things. Tons of people will now buy the stock and they're right to do so from a value investor perspective. If you hate Facebook from an emotional position it doesn't matter either way because you probably don't hold any/many investment assets anyway. Buffet didn't have the wealth at age 37 either. With Zuckerberg being as rich as Buffet now he is just as capable of donating more (percentage) while still having plenty enough for the rest of his life but doesn't. Lots of people smoke cigarettes but that's not on me, so I should invest in that, right? Not my fault it causes cancer and millions die, I want that dividend. Do you realize every dollar you invest in these companies gives them more power, especially when billions are coming from Buffett? He could buy out and invest billions in renewables and still have $150B in the bank but instead he buys an oil company since he doesn't even understand technology and only buys status quo companies that don't change anything. There's a good reason why he's no longer the richest man anymore and was quickly passed by tech entrepreneurs. Cause they actually innovate and grow real companies. I mean it's not that I don't admire your ridiculous optimism. But send 10k in BTC my way, or you're lying 😉 I skip the cans and go straight for the coke Sure Looking back I got upset and took the -30b hypothetical scenario seriously for no reason I used to do this shit for a living. This is not how it’s done. You said nothing that disagreed fundamentally with what I was saying. What was the point? I was simply pointing out that the stock price today means something, even if the fundamentals pointed to a higher value later on. The price today is what it's worth today because that's what I can sell it at today. Simple point. Literally no one had the wealth Zuck had at his age. It's unprecedented, even for tech billionaires (although maybe Page and Brin were close)? And I'd say Zuck is at least as generous as any of them. I mean, boycott cigs if you want. You're only impacting addicts. Real charming. How do companies get funding from stock prices? Are they able to just take the money you put in them? Oh right, they have to sell stock they own as a company. Investing in a company doesn't directly equal funding their prospects. You're just unwilling to admit that the world is nuanced and you're ignoring what you choose. 10k my way too just as a second witness. Not investing in cigarette companies for moral reasons is impacting addicts? You sound like the kind of guy who would sell Meth cause it's good business and you'd be doing Meth heads a disservice if you didn't. Me three please. Except 10k btc *plus* 10k in gold bars You still don't seem to understand nuance. The largest number of cigarettes sold is to people who smoke habitually. You're claiming that without Buffett's money, these companies would be severely impacted- a cost that will affect their largest base. Whereas other alternatives (without his money) have and continue to grow, namely vaping. Big picture, the part you're missing is how ineffective and unreasonable the suggestions are, but you're crucifying someone based on it." "Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway has the cash to buy Tesla, Starbucks, or McDonald's after the coronavirus sell-off | Markets Insider",2491,https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/warren-buffett-berkshire-hathaway-buy-tesla-starbucks-mcdonalds-coronavirus-selloff-2020-3-1029041432,"[deleted] TSLA is completely opposite of buffets mentality Pro Tip: these people have no idea what they’re talking about. Buffett doesn’t telegraph his moves, and doesn’t buy what these trash article writers throw out there. He’s a value investor, and seeking a deal means getting something nobody else is looking at. [deleted] I think MCD is more fitting to his portfolio. Buffet buys companies that generate material cash flow, has solid margins, and sells products that consumers buy repeatedly. A car company, particularly Tesla, doesn't fit that definition in any way. Buffett's investment strategy is well known and hasn't changed in decades. There's no reason to guess about anything. [deleted] too bad his short term holdings are likely investment grade short term bonds etc, all which have taken a dive since December '19.... If he buys Tesla, I'll buy Ford. How about buying twitter or Fox News and shutting them down? And the treasury now has the ability to print that much money in a day if it wants. Again another person missing the point. Who cares what they buy or could buy or should buy or will buy because it hasn’t happened yet and every conversation regarding this is speculative, that is worthless in terms of making money. The fact of the matter is cold hard USD is very powerful right now and has an insanely amazing upside. We don’t know what next week or the week after or the following month and so on will look like. I’m not gonna pretend to know, you shouldn’t either, no one should. If you can’t understand why cash is important right now then please dive deeper into this world. There’s so many factors and influences that computer and (human) veteran teams can’t predict. I don’t know how the market will go but I do know that I have cash on hand and am ready to buy if it does dip deeper. Hope it doesn’t and we get back on track. But have you read the news lately? None of these companies have a moat as Buffett wants. Maybe Tesla and it is a company highly founded on the vision of Musk. Maybe he would invest in Boeing. Or JPM as it is 50% down so far. And lastly, he is 90 years old. I would not care if the world froze if ı were his age. I do not think he cares much. This link has been shared 1 time. Please consider making a crosspost instead of reposting next time First seen [Here](https://redd.it/fqhwue) on 2020-03-28. Last seen [Here](https://redd.it/fqhwue) on 2020-03-28 **Searched Links:** 57,247,332 | **Indexed Posts:** 441,387,791 | **Search Time:** 0.022s *Feedback? Hate? Visit r/repostsleuthbot* The board or shareholders would never accept a buyout at current prices (except Tesla, where it's the other way around). Any attempt to gather shares with current volume would not go undetected, he wouldn't even get 15% of the shares before his price went up significantly. He'll buy coca-cola. All of it. Has warren buffet deployed any cash during this bear market? If so what did he buy? My money is in Boeing or 3M. By that measure, Apple could buy them as well. as could Google. Apple was hoarding *over $240 BILLION in cash* for years, and kept claiming they were going to invest it in something, somewhere.. and then just spent half of it on stock buybacks. *Dew it* Oh it will be delightful if he have enough to buy additional life THIS IS THE STUFF YOU WANT TO AVOID! SOON YOU WILL HAVE PLANET AMAZON, NOT EARTH!!! They have been cash rich for awhile waiting for a market downturn Remember Buffets shareholder letter talked about not acquiring any new companies because there weren't any deals at the time. Guess this is what they were waiting on. Mark Cuban said something a few years ago about keeping a lot of his assets in cash. why would they? Yes! As a shareholder, I can sit back and see what happens. Out of those three Buffett would probably like Starbucks or McDonalds. These giant corporate cash reserves are getting taxed after this financial shutdown. All that government spending will be recouped in part through such taxes. Either as a dividend tax, and/or a corporate wealth tax. Fuck Warren Buffet. It’s the financial insiders who I question in this virus shit show. Buy up the smaller companies to control more of the human game I have money to buy McDonald’s, you don’t see me writing articles about it... Your free stock is waiting for you! Join Robinhood and we'll both get a stock like Apple, Ford, or Facebook for free. Sign up with my link. https://join.robinhood.com/davidg5157 Musk would never give up control of Tesla or SpaceX. Time to become GREEDY when others are FEARFUL! Please, please, please, please Warren... buy Fox News. Please? Should buy Fox News and then board it all up I just have to say I live in a Berkshire Hathaway apt building in the middle of oakland county which is the hot zone for covid-19 I'm a chef and am currently laid off from my 2 jobs with a state of emergency declared in my city and I still get a daily email where they remind all tenants that rent is still due on the 1st of the month. I mean Warren Buffett is a billionaire and he cant afford a rent freeze during a global pandemic Isn’t it obvious he would buy a buffet chain? Ha. Cash won’t mean a goddamn thing in 18 months. Clean water, food, and supplies will be king. ""Who's Warren Buffet?"" I'm not certain why people are fans of Warren Buffet, the same why I didn't understand why people were fans of Alan Greenspan. Here's a trick I learned long ago. When you ask one of these guys about when the next recession is going to hit, they'll all say they don't know. Why do they say? Because of insider trading laws. They know when the market is going to dump and like Warren Buffet make money off the options or short sell. So, you can revere this guy all you want, he just got wealthier off most Americans going broke. Everyone needs a grandpa, well my grandpa wouldn't have trusted this guy. But the ruble went up no? Say he uses $40 billion to ensure BRK is rock solid. He still has ~$100 billion for investments. [deleted] Why should he spend money on his business when the US government is funding corporations? Do you think he may catch the beer flu and die? Best for his shareholders that he stay to himself and not do deals if it could mean he’s gone. You’re missing the entire point. Has the CASH to buy (if he wanted to). The amount of CASH he has during a liquidity crisis and receded market (from ALL TIME HIGHS) is the major headliner here. BRK’s net worth is going to grow by a ton in the next 2-5 years. EDIT: “worth” not “worry.” “Grow” not “growth.” Yeah he would not buy that at any price. /u/ElectrikDonuts calling Buffett a pussy straight up! If I'm assuming Mr. Omaha is buying one of those three companies, it's McDonalds, all the way. Are we all going to completely ignore the fact that Buffet IS 89 YEARS OLD? I understand that the super wealthy think they’re going to live forever but I think he must be aware of the fact he is very near the end of his life and that must have at least some influence on the way he invests his money. If you’re effectively cheating death every day by simply existing past your life expectancy; how concerned are you going to be about the returns on your investments, decades or even a half dozen years in the future? TSLA is at the same price it was in January, double what it was last summer. Headline makes no sense. It doesn't matter who else is looking at it if you're the only one who can do actually do it. Cigar butts? He has been beat by the SP500 this past decade, but I am sure they will come out ahead this decade with their current position. Is class b the common shares that retail investors can buy? Rumor has it he even eats the food there The only play I can view here, is the solar potential of Tesla. The cars would just be to help drive solar demand. BRK energy is very much into wind energy. But agree overall, not very Buffet. nah, its saying he has enough cash to essentially buy these companies outright Been well publicized he keeps money in treasuries. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/playing-with-100-billion-warren-buffett-is-giant-trader-of-u-s-treasury-bills-1519381801 LOL. What’s your definition of a “dive”? Because short term investment grade bonds are not down 30-40% like these stocks. YTD the VFSTX is down a whopping 2%. I don’t call down 2% taking a dive in this market. That’s an interesting take. The corporate bond market is indeed freezing up right now and bond assets are really hard to value. Ford's average volume is actually insane (~133MM) [deleted] How about Reddit? What a liberal cesspool this place has become. Pretty sure Fox News is private. McDonald’s sure does and it’s a business he loves. And you don’t know much about Buffett if you think that. >JPM No. Warren says he never buys more than 10% of banks because then BRK would have to legally become a ""bank-holding company"" (which is surely disadvantageous for a litany of reasons given how he always speaks about them negatively). I bet he'd love to buy them without the bank holding company constraint though. How does Starbucks not have a moat? He eats breakfast at McDonalds every single day. He loves McDonalds. He’s gonna buy Boeing. buffet prefers sugar water to tesla. They found something to invest in... AAPL Should have bought tesla while they could what are you even talking about? Did you panic bug all the flour and TP on the planet? You really have no clue what type of investments he does. You honestly shouldn't comment if you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about. How are you not fan of a guy who can predict a recession? It’s like he know magic. Keeping cash on hand to pick up the pieces isn’t evil, it’s good for everyone. Everyone knew another crash was coming eventually and if they saved cash on the sideline eventually it would payoff. [deleted] [deleted] [deleted] I guess. But being cash rich can be over rated. If we are back at 2016 prices and buffet didn't buy much since 2016 than its a wash. I'm sure he did but many ""safe"" home gamers prefer to sit in cash for years and miss a 50% up swing rather than take the risk of a 20% down swing. Buffet is value shopping which make sense for him to be cash heavy but I definitely want to see his selling history over the last 4 years. It buffet so I'm sure he did really well but as investors we should try to ask comprehensive questions that lead to fully contextual understandings. If he wanted to? Lol yea but I think they have a say in the matter too... >receded Do you sure about ""All time highs"" Lol, TSLA, is such a financial mess. You're better off throwing your money in the dumpster. MCD from what I last recall financed with DEBT a share buyback program to ""bring value back"" to shareholders. Yaaaaaaaaaaaaah, they may be ""worth"" something because people in the secondary market buy them up, but in reality it's... ""Fugazyi, Fugahzy. It's a whazy. It's a woozie. It's Fairy Dust."" Not even for tree fiddy? You are in /r/finance, not /r/wallstreetbets ... Boeing is also listed by the article, but McDonald's is way more up Buffett's alley, I think. He can't buy it at todays trading price. He'd have to offer a premium and my guess is that it'd have to be north of the highest point they've traded at I completely agree TSLA is nothing without Musk, and its pretty safe to say Musk doesn't play well with others in his sandbox...Mcdonalds, maybe but honestly I don't see him looking at any of these 3 companies. the titles almost click bait The SP500 gains for the last 10 years are inflated bullshit. Check out BRK the last 30 years vs the SP500. It is eye opening. Buy the SP500 if you think the Fed can pump forever. At some point though, we have to start getting back to fundamentals. That may not be BRK for you, but I wouldn't expect the status quo to stick no matter what happens. Once this quarantine is over, there is going to be a lot of angry people out there. Dude even buffet himself recommends investing in the s&p 500 index for the long term. So why wouldn't you listen to him, rather than buying Berkshire? I bet the s&p will still beat him. You can buy an A share too, but they're like $300k. That said, years ago they did take a stake in whatever that Chinese electric car company is. I can't remember the name. So maybe they do reserve a portion of the book for flyers. Either way... like duh... he’s always had that kinda money before the virus. And those bad boys have been spiking if he held them before the rate cut. Thanks to the Fed. Prior to that short term debt was trading pretty crappy 4%+ range during ""the crisis"" with massive bid ask 300+ bps if bid) For what are most likely money good bonds (not some of the stuff in the index) and his size (assumption, don't know the specifics) with no dealer willing to use balance sheet, could have been ugly, not equity ugly to your point. Relative value wise the front end was looking quite cheap, ironically the long end has held up better. Still, dealers don't want risk. Even off the run treasurys had wide bid ask. Story has changed obviously since Monday. [deleted] I think it might have been a joke. Maybe you should switch to 4chan or 8chan? You can just subscribe to subreddits that you agree with. Or stop using reddit. If you separate the content from the comments, political allegiance doesn’t really matter. Personally I don’t get any political content whatsoever unless I specifically seek out a political subreddit. Bless your heart that’s semi true, a lot of us are commies too You can always subscribe to TheDonald or Conservative to find heavily curated conservative content if that's your jam. Maybe it’s not reddit, but the world. Maybe it’s because “conservatives” are dying off with their ancient mindsets that oppose science. New generations don’t want to be in the same party as racist, climate deniers, and “fiscal conservatives” that want to spend all the money on military and tax breaks for corporate share buy backs and bailout while the middle class evaporates. Reddit was already sold in 2005 Twitter is liberal and Fox News is conservative, so OP's comment was pretty neutral... [deleted] Hey! You sound like a massive piece of shit and an effective troll. I’m bored as fuck, out of work and stuck at home on a predominately liberal website- Let’s argue and call each other mean names until one of us loses interest. Spez is a cuck Fox News isn't owned by News Corp anymore? Yeah, he famously loves Coke. McDonald’s seems very in line with that sort of brand loyalty and presence. That was my opinion. Maybe you are right and I am wrong. We will see. Yeah Starbucks absolutely has a moat. How big it is is up for more debate but it's laughable to think they can be easily copied. One of the most important imo is the huge % of customers who use the rewards app. It not only increases customer loyalty + purchase frequency but it also gives Starbucks massive amounts of data to work with. It is a coffee chain which can be copied easily. Warren Buffett once said that as an investor, it is wise to be “Fearful when others are greedy and greedy when others are fearful.” I dont know why people have had this idea that the goverment will collapse for 100 years. I get not wanting to hold cash but there are things you can put your money into I’m in the same position but without the B behind each number. That's always been his playbook and patience serves him well. He'll probably buy a few percentage points in some companies he now finds trading at a value. Thanks for thorough reply. Are there some objective conditions for giving funds or they can refuse as they wish? Not funding company just because a parent company saved cash seems unfair. Others could have saved instead of big buybacks. Cash rich in a liquidity crisis is most definitely not over rated lol. The point is right now, that cash could readily be used to 'cash in' at bargain prices on discounted, depressed-stock companies that can or will easily recover. Given Buffett's usual appetite.. that means the basics. Transportation& logistics, food, industrial goods and manufacturing. I get your point about “safe home gainers” but that’s just them using cash incorrectly. BRK has to release their positions after every quarter. They have bought a ton since 2016. Your assumption is that the market is headed back up. It could be a Bull Trap and we could head down a lot more. Last year you could argue “cash is overrated,” right now cash is NOT overrated. Cash is what will get you rich once the market returns to normal. For an answer to reach a “fully contextualized understanding” is recognizing the proper takeaway. CASH IS KING RIGHT NOW AND BRK HAS A LOT. lol when buffett buys he is not trading, he is buying it to hold, so unless if he thinks the business itself changes due to a crisis, a bit of price premium or price discount wont affect his decisions to buy. If the market drop by 50% then not so much. You realize that if indeed another recession like 08 take place, just by investing at the right time and wait 1-2 year for index to return to normal you get 100% return right ? Being cash rich in this environment is fucking great It all depends, if you investing broadly across the market sure, and it also depends on when/if you need the money. Missing upside to protect downside if you are 5 yrs from retirement is just fine, not so much if you are 20-30 years. As for single businesses, BRK underperforms during bull markets due to its scale, but during recessions outperforms as they operate with a margin of safety that other companies don’t operate with. This allows him to earn outsized returns in a market like this... also just picking some arbitrary dates (eg 2016g and saying who performed well since then is hardly a rigorous way to judge investment performance. Yes receded from all times highs. Check S&P, Dow, Nasdaq, and Russel charts. If you don’t know we were at all time highs this year and obviously don’t follow the market why are you arguing about it? Please look up information before. GODDAMN LOCH NESS MONSTER!!! Maybe free fiddy. Elon: ""Warren I'm giving Berkshire all my shares."" Warren: ""I'd rather chew glass."" The advice one gives clients and lives by are seldom the same thing Sir, this is the 🌈🐻 bar, Hairy's. [deleted] I don't necessarily disagree with you about SP500 vs BRK. I actually think the most recent Fed actions were required and necessary to not cause an economic implosion in some sectors. I am not sure how it bodes well for the long term. It definitely seems like a market crash was inevitable, but the Virus gave the government a practical reason to juice it all again. I personally can't see how this doesn't result in inflation over the next 5 years. BRK should be a direct beneficiary of that inflation too though. We just add more money into circulation and everything goes up, but is anyone really getting richer? Totally understand and that's all I put my money in. I am out the moment, but it's the first time I have sold out ever, just because I felt the market wasn't acting rationally once we had the virus in Washington St. I had read enough that this was going to spread like wildfire. Didn't understand how bad, then read how this could cause a financial crisis too because of how debt heavy most American companies were. He recommends the S&P 500 to amateur investors (called “Defensive Investors” by Ben Graham). For himself, he absolutely does not invest in indices. He says there’s nothing better than competing against passive indexers because it’s like taking an exam against people who don’t believe there is value in studying. Buffett himself favors concentrated stakes in great businesses at good prices. This is the best way for professional investors (called “Enterprising Investors” by Ben Graham) to invest. The S&P 500 may or may not beat him, but investing in Berkshire should be viewed separately from investing in the S&P 500. BYD I believe, has a more complicated ticker. Buffet really likes the Ceo. Some view him as a dark horse to take over BRK. Not wholesale though, the point is that the market has eviscerated these company's market cap Those are not short term. Lqd has a duration of ~9 years. It was but I can appreciate his point. However, is it possible that this countries political divisions and congressional gridlock could be put at ease with the end of an obviously destructive force as Fox News, thereby allowing for some real growth in our economy? Republican leadership seems to be attempting to lead our country (or just those in the lower wealth categories) into third world status. [deleted] That’s the lefts mindset, so congrats on being a sheep I mostly don’t get any political content either, but unfortunately there have been MANY popular subreddits that continuously have had content that should be in political subreddits. Like r/Pics, r/Coronavirus, r/Economics, r/WhitePeopleTwitter, and more Like none. My reddit is the healthiest social media I have. Totally agree that you can subscribe to ones you agree with. But the fact is that Reddit IS a liberal cesspool so it doesn’t matter what subreddit you subscribe to because they are everywhere! Look at socialism subreddit.... 250K followers. Capitalism subreddit 25K followers lmao Reddit is teenagers that want to love off the government They nuked The Don, but I actually enjoyed that one. The rest of the right leaning subs are as bad as r/politics. The one sided, no compromise, hive mind is retarded, and doesn’t exist outside of here. Chastising, attacking, and banning people you deem outside of the group thought is disgusting. [deleted] Or maybe Reddit is full of fake accounts and 16 year olds that don’t pay taxes. What does that have to do with my comment? Just like you’re choosing to be a cheerleader for group thought. It’s laughable the responses here. Sounds like you need a break, because you’re crying out to me on the inter webs...I’ll let you alone child. D’oh Buffett had a fairly large McDonald's position in the past and owns Dairy Queen entirely. They're definitely a company he'd be interested in at the right price. Maybe, I mean I have studied Buffett for 20 years, own stock in Berkshire Hathaway and go hear him talk at the annual shareholders meeting every year (which sadly is online only this year due to the virus). So I’m not just guessing. It’s a real estate company like McDonald’s Why hasn’t it been copied yet then? Sure there are other coffee shops, but few at Starbucks scale and reach. The supply chain/logistics is a competitive advantage. Considerable brand value as well regardless of how mediocre their coffee is. Money just doesn’t up and disappear. In the 20th century, society survived a pandemic, two world wars and the Kardashians. It will survive this too. Thank god Buffettology is an ideology that still resonates with current generations. Tim cook and APPL agree It is if people don’t buy thing that outperform when the market rebounds. I’ve seen ppl sit out 4 years of gains waiting for this drop. They still have cash. I bet they sit out the drop too, just like in 2019 when market dropped 10%. The S&P500 doubles every 7 years. Waiting 3 years to buy in then 3 year for the market to recover (as may happen if it actually drops 50%) just as easily could be a wash in comparison to dollar cost averaging. Especially for those that don’t have the eye for companies buffet does. And what’s to say it drops 50%? I think it very well could in this situation but that doesn’t mean I’d say it was worth sitting on cash for 3 years then waiting for 3 years of recovery to get a 50% return once a decade. Risk of missing the bottom, picking the wrong companies, or not buying back in are higher than people make them out to be. The 10 year time range became misleading when it no longer included the last recession. We need to at least be talking about a full business cycle You mean compared to the companies about to go bankrupt who borrowed money to buy their own shares? I look at that as a positive. Well that's silly. Time in the market beats timing the market. And you tried to time the market. Possibly, but Buffett is not going to be the man to do it. VOAT is actually a racist website. Reddit is a censored echo chamber for the left. They both suck. Just gotta get away from the heavily trafficked subs. You can go to GAB if you need your dose of shit stain for the day. Why are you so angry and quick to insult? I suggest you try yoga and drink lots of kombucha. Maybe try hugging a tree? Meanwhile the right's mindset is to whine whenever their made up facts don't get equal airtime with actual facts. How does it feel to be a traitor to America you fucking shill? Shut up nazi. There will always be some overlap. Essentially any topic where people have differing opinions is a political topic. ​ \> If you separate the content from the comments, political allegiance doesn’t really matter. This is honestly the most important lesson I've ever personally learned. If you know the facts, you don't need other people to interpret them for you. Unless it directly impacts you and you need to have a discussion, you can just ignore the comments. Exactly! Reddit’s greatest strength is that you can tailor your experience however suits you. That's sad. That’s a whole lot of subjective bullshit that kinda misses the point right there. Just by being a functional and mature adult, the opinions of other people no longer matter in the context of your own experience. For the rest of it, just unsub from places that you don’t like. So it’s okay to attack liberals, just not people “outside the group thought?” The Donald was quarantined. Kind of fitting considering.... It's ironic you should (pretend to) be upset about banning your views from the popular subreddits given that all the conservative subreddits have extremely strict policies that ban anyone and anything outside a very small spectrum of worldviews. Right wing spaces online are universally more heavily ideologically policed than mainstream spaces. You don't want an open space where all views are respected, you just want mainstream spaces to be policed by right wing moderation. What makes you think it was liberals who flushed Bernie? Sure. The front page of faux news. Copy. An anti-liberal comment is an unjustified/irrelevant response to a moderate comment... (and this is coming from someone who doesn't disagree that there is a substantial toxic liberal tilt to Reddit) OP's comment was moderate because they suggested shutting down a liberal (Twitter) AND a conservative (Fox News) company... Although Fox News is more blatantly conservative than Twitter is blatantly liberal, I'd still consider the comment to be moderate/centrist... It's self-explanatory why your comment was anti-liberal so I don't need to explain that. OK. Probably you are right. So whats his take about moat? How does McDonalds has a moat when the whole world is leaning towards more healthy foods? I see the real estate point, but does McD actually own its restaurants? I thought they were mostly franchises. Does Starbucks own its locations? Or are those franchised, too? Real estate company ??? It has been copied but none of them is as big as Starbucks and some countries make it harder for Starbucks to enter their market as well such as Italy Australia Greece etc... APPL? What to say it drops 50% is when you look at the amount of BBB corporate debt and see that it occupies 60% of corporate debt. Sure, fucking time the market is hard but it's stupid to prompt other to blindly throw money into Etf because stocks only go up. And frankly speaking to address your point that Spx go up x2 every 7 year, I don't think anyone seriously sit out of the market for 7 years, 1-2 year in a bubble filled environment like this might make sense but 7, just find me someone who wait 7 years, I don't buy that shit I sold pretty early this year. I'm only wrong if I put it back in at a higher number than I sold. I said my must buy back point is 2050 for the SP500. We will see. I checked out voat for the first time & the first three posts are about n***ers, jews burning, and “Allah is gay”. Wtf Are you seriously trying to say that reddit is a right-wing website? What world do you live in? Not angry at all. I hug my bonsai everyday. I remember when this site was extremely libertarian and embraced free speech. Then a switch was thrown and it became a liberal wet dream. Reddit is not a platform anymore, it’s a censored hell hole. Traitors are punished by death. You just said that people you disagree with politically are traitors. Therefore you’re quite literally calling for the death of those you disagree with. Authoritarian as fuck. You have no idea what a nazi is, and if you did, you wouldn’t use it as an attempt to insult. Shame on you. You’re right, I agree with that point. But still, in some instances we still see blatant political content in these subreddits that does not even follow the subreddits rules and guidelines. That is what frustrates me and that is the point I was trying to make. I don’t mind seeing political discussion on posts in subreddits and in the comments when the post is something that follows the guidelines. However, when it is directly the content itself that is making a political statement and does not actually follow the purpose and rules of the subreddit this is what makes me frustrated. Because in that sense then it is inescapable, and these are subreddits I come to for entertainment/information and not political statements. I learn so much here. And really enjoy it. Redditors will HATE you for knowing this secret!! When I learned this, I cut my browsing time from 6 hrs/day to a measly 14 hrs/day That's my FB experience. And Instagram. Pretty much every social media. Well, if you really want to be toxic, gardening, renovation, photo, and other subreddits aren't the place for it. Meanwhile on Twitter, which I also enjoy, a convo with friends can end up with trolls. Who is attacking liberals? You all are proving my point, as the hive mind disagrees I do not agree that any emotion has been projected on my end. It’s sad how bad the misconception is. Bad bot I mean McDonald’s has been adding healthy food to their menu for years and will adapt with the times. But as many have said McDonald’s is a real estate company that sells food and boy do they know how to get good real estate. On top of that they are a master at consistency and process, which is why people go to McDonald’s. Can you really imagine a startup competing with McDonald’s in any real way? McDonald’s is franchise Starbucks isn’t yet McDonalds is one of the largest landowners in the United States ... I believe Owns the buildings [This article ](https://www.quickliquidity.com/blog/mcdonalds-secret-sauce-commercial-real-estate.php)does an excellent job explaining how it works. AAPL is apple I know people that have been overly cash heavy for 3 years. If we look at the times the market actuallyfell a full 50% you are taking bad recessions like 2008. 2008 took years to recover. So sitting out 3 years hoping for a 50% drop, when typical recession is closer to 30%, is not likely. This so far 25% drop was driven by a black swan event. You cant predict those. I still stand by dollar cost avg into the S&P500. Yea it’s disgusting. Good catch. Meant quite the opposite. Edited. Yes, which is why you are calling people „mentally challenged“ [deleted] Free speech is not the freedom to not be disagreed with OK boomer. This is true. But the person who just accused the “right” of not wanting to hear facts will certainly Not want to hear this fact. Trump is killing Americans for his political purposes. If you support trump you support killing Americans. So, are you against Trump? Or are you a traitor to the country? It matters a lot that the opinion we differ on is that Republicans are in favor if themselves committing treason and that I'm against that. Thus far i have only absolute nazis seen complain about „leftists“. I’m with ya big dawg. CHUMP I’m so dense I warp spacetime and browse 26 hours a day. So when you called me a sheep further up you meant that as a compliment? To assume that a group of people that have responded to your comments are of a hive mind is a big assumption. Are you sure about that? Because I am 99.99997% sure that mn_sunny is not a bot. --- ^(I am a neural network being trained to detect spammers | Summon me with !isbot |) ^(/r/spambotdetector |) [^(Optout)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=whynotcollegeboard&subject=!optout&message=!optout) ^(|) [^(Original Github)](https://github.com/SM-Wistful/BotDetection-Algorithm) They havent been adding healthy food to their menu. Renaming fried to crispy isnt making anything healthier. Burger King? KFC? Countless other local fast food companies which are imitating McDonalds. I did not know that McDonalds owns the places they do business to be honest. Dont they give franchises? Can you still make the argument that McDonald’s has a valuable real estate portfolio? Don’t the franchisees own (or lease) the properties? It’s Tim Apple for short I think then we share more similarity than I thought. I agree with you on cost averaging into SP500 since market timing, especially for individual investors who has little access to data compared to the big guys is extremely hard. My point is that in an environment like this, it makes sense to reduce your potential gain by being more cautious, maybe leave half the cash outside and wait for the drop and buy more or buy some protective puts like Ackman did. If indeed you are wrong about the bubble, you still gain because half your asset is in stocks, if you are right, you have chance to invest at cheap cost or enjoy disproportionate gain from your put Lol that makes far more sense That’s an observation based on fact, and is not tied to any emotion. Are you seriously mocking free speech? If anyone is a traitor here, it’s the person who is calling for the murder of tens of millions of his fellow countrymen for a political disagreement. You’re a mentally challenged individual. Wishing you the best in the future. Also, not to hurt your ego, the Nazi Party was called the National Socialist Party. By definition, a left wing organization. Check out a history book. No assumption, it’s fact. Sheep isn’t really an insult, it’s more of a general description of the actions you imitate. This may help https://blog.wallstreetsurvivor.com/2015/10/08/mcdonalds-beyond-the-burger/ Also look at the financials of all three of those companies and tell me who the winner is. Ps kfc is part of Yum brands with the stock ticket YUM I’m only quoting Ray Kroc That still makes you quick to insult, *which is also a nazi thing*. The list keeps getting longer. Did your granddaddy really fight the „commies“ only for you to end up a nazi? I think he's mocking those who think free speech is an absolute right to say anything without rebuttal or the consequences of their words reaching them in response. Like, I suspect, you. No, they're mocking you. You must be referring to the guy who is literally holding states hostage for the PPE that he has the federal government hoarding while a pandemic that he exacerbates daily is pushing the country to the breaking point. He and the trolls defending him while gloating about how they expect the pandemic to hit liberal cities hardest are the only examples I can think of that fit your criteria. So North Korea's full name being the Democratic People's Republic of Korea means they're a democracy? Guys he’s too far gone. It’s best to just let him yell his nonsense into the abyss and not acknowledge him 😂 [The first thing that google gave me when asking the question](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.snopes.com/news/2017/09/05/were-nazis-socialists/amp/) > However, the assumption that because the word “socialist” appeared in the party’s name and socialist words and ideas popped up in the writings and speeches of top Nazis then the Nazis must have been actual socialists is naive and ahistorical. What the evidence shows, on the contrary, is that Nazi Party leaders paid mere lip service to socialist ideals on the way to achieving their one true goal: raw, totalitarian power. Twisting facts and history is another popular trick of nazis. So by that logic, would you say that a MAGA rally is a cesspool of conservative thinking? Ok. Thanks for your input. Banning speech is not a rebuttal. I don’t see it as an absolute right, but selective editing of thought has gotten out of hand on social media. Are you implying that Trump just has a warehouse full of PPE that he’s personally responsible for and is intentionally hoarding it for the fun of it? Because if so, please take your meds. There’s PLENTY to criticize Trump about when it comes to his response to the pandemic. But idiots like you go completely off your rocker and make him actually look competent in comparison, which is pretty hard to do. https://www.modernhealthcare.com/supply-chain/trump-bans-hoarding-scarce-medical-equipment-and-supplies He literally made hoarding PPE equipment a federal crime, so please fuck off with your nonsense. Oh don’t try to rewrite history. You can’t pretend that you have some insider knowledge of North Korea. For all you know, the brainwashed people do vote them in. Regardless, Nazi Germany’s actions were very socialist. Banning weapons, nationalizing industry, re-education camps, high taxes, etc. Dude, google results are as biased as they come. Please dont come at me with that crap, my grandfather fought the commie scum. Absolutely filthy. As an American, hope to make it to one soon. That's the problem, but I'd think a libertarian proponent would have no difficulty with this: The First Amendment regulates the government, not private entities. If Twitter or Reddit or 8chan or fucking ChristianMingle.com want to restrict access to their platform based on speech, that's all legal. In the marketplace approach, you don't have to use those platforms. That's the reason the ""freeze peach"" meme exists. Reactionaries pretend to care about free speech when their ideas meet resistance, but then weaponize private entities against others. It's mockery of an absurd and self-contradicting abuse of a fundamental right. Oh, and so you know, ""free speech"" is not an absolute defense. It's actually kind of an admission of your position's indefensibility. ""I have no other argument but to say you can't stop me from saying this."" Here's a nice article talking about how trump has the federal government taking all production of PPE to distribute as he sees fit. https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/27/politics/michigan-governor-medical-supplies-cnntv/index.html Bonus points for the direct quotes near the end of the article where Trump brags about ignoring pleas from governors he disagrees with. QED; ergo, eat shit. > Oh don’t try to rewrite history. You can’t pretend that you have some insider knowledge of North Korea. *tries to rewrite history by pretending to have insider knowledge about the nazi party* So you are saying that North Korea is a democracy? That’s your argument? North Korea could actually be democratic, therefore we have to take seriously the original name of the Nazi party? What the actual fuck. So killing trade unionists is what left wings do huh? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany >The Nazi government developed a partnership with leading German business interests, who supported the goals of the regime and its war effort in exchange for advantageous contracts, subsidies, and the suppression of the trade union movement.[[10]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany#cite_note-FOOTNOTETooze2006101-114-10) [Cartels](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartel) and monopolies were encouraged at the expense of small businesses, even though the Nazis had received considerable electoral support from small business owners.[[11]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany#cite_note-11) Pretty sure socialists would be regulating companies to prevent monopolies, not flourish them. >re-education camps Sorry, but which group of people are fighting for Conversion Therapy camps? So youre not willing to look at sources provided? Another typical nazi thing. my grand papi was out there killen naziis And anyone that wouldn’t want to go to a maga rally is un-American, I take it? I agree with all of that! The only thing is Reddit (and FB/Twitter) claims to be a platform, but if it arbitrarily decides what can/cannot be viewed, it’s a publisher, not a platform. And the law treats them differently. Neat. Nowhere does it mention the federal government stockpiling and hoarding PPE equipment. Honesty is all I’m looking for here and you have none of it. Umm, no. I am well aware of history. I’m saying that I haven’t reviewed their elections enough to say it’s not. No one on Reddit has, they just regurgitate what they “heard”. Wait wait, this guy knows ALL the history.. he's probably on to something Connect the dot thinking coming from you. Follow along or be left behind. Business in bed with government is the definition of socialism....”the means of production”. You SAY conservatives are butt buddies with business, but when we say low taxes/free markets, that’s a different thing than special favors for specific businesses. We call that crony capitalism. Your conversion camp example is bullshit. Not many people subscribe to that theory (nor do I or many people give a shit if you’re gay), but for those camps NOBODY IS FORCING YOU INTO THEM. Big difference. I’m not lining up Jews and massacring their families, while stealing their valuables like a typical commie. Definitely questionable. I am not a lawyer, so I don't know the difference to a reasonable degree of understanding. I would only say that I know the law takes a generous view to private entities that wish to internally regulate speech that threatens the company with legal action. I'd just like to point out how deferential Reddit has been to r/t_D, as a counterpoint to the narrative of ""it's shutting down speech here."" After repeated violations of internal harassment and external threatening rules, the subreddit still exists. These rules are meant to provide a safe experience for users (ensuring new users will join) and prevent Reddit from being sued by folks because of platformed users being assholes or opening up Reddit to lawsuits. The rules are there to protect Reddit, and the modus operandi of t_D has been to openly and mockingly flaut these rules as a juvenile challenge to the admins. And yet, t_D exists. There is no good reason it should persist while other subs who harass (FPH is a classic example) or open Reddit up to legal threats (ie: theFappening) have been rightfully banned. They have seen mods removed who have been among the worst offenders, but the platform still exists. Reddit is taking extraordinary steps to placate a childish minority of users who open up the company to serious external threats and harm the rest of the users. That's not what a ""publisher"" does, as you suggested. Google ""Strategic National Stockpile"". That's the last time I'm doing your homework for you. >I’m saying that I haven’t reviewed their elections enough to say it’s not. No one on Reddit has, **they just regurgitate what they “heard”.** It sounds like you are just regurgitating what you've heard about Nazi's being socialists. What do you feel about the ""First they came"" poem by German Lutheran pastor Martin Niemöller? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_... >First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist. >Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist. >Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew. >Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me. Interesting how someone in Nazi Germany during the rise of fascism created one of the most popular poems about Nazi Germany and talks about the Nazi's coming for the socialists huh? Socialism is when the government is the business as in M4A and is leftist. Facism is when the the government is in bed with business and it is a right wing philosophy. The idea that their aren’t right wing authoritarians is blatantly untrue when we spent the 1st half of the 20th century fighting them. Facism is undeniably right wing and undeniably the political ideology of the nazis, regardless of what they called themselves. So the suppression of trade unionists is a left wing idealogy huh? What about the Reichstag fire being blamed on the communist party? That's what the left would do? Blame communists? [deleted] Maybe you should understand what that’s even designed for. https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-care/why-strategic-national-stockpile-isn-t-meant-solve-crisis-coronavirus-n1170376 > But the U.S. strategic stockpile isn’t intended to be the solution to a crisis. It’s designed to be used as a stopgap during emergencies. The stockpile has limited resources, government officials and public health experts say, which weren’t at full capacity even before the coronavirus was on the horizon. The whole point is to be a bridge to hold over the healthcare industry until supply chains can take over. It’s not a replacement during a time of crisis, like you assume it is. There’s real things to be upset about. But people like you who cry about fucking EVERYTHING are fucking annoying and are what is propping up Trump’s approval ratings to be higher than they should be. Lies. Imagine not being able to read sarcasm He has all production going to the strategic stockpile. If anyone else is waiting on PPE they go to the end of the line behind the federal government. That was in the previous article. Are you seriously incapable of learning a new piece if information without it pushing the only other piece out of your mind? Or, as I suspect is more accurate, are you merely arguing in bad faith? Any citations to back that up? Just lies huh? Why would you go on the internet and use sarcasm like that?? ಥ_ಥ That’s not a new piece of information. You lied by saying Trump was personally hoarding and stockpiling medical supplies during a crisis, which was a bullshit lie. You provided a poem like it’s a smoking gun lmao. Nazis are left wing idiot. You are an infant and your arguments are deliberate fallacies. Have a shitty life. How? Classy. I wish you the best because I’m not a terrible person. Read “why we are antisemites” by Hitler. He outlines why they are socialists. Said the shill who was continuing to act as an apologist for a narcissistic, murdering fascist. Or you can use your 7th grade skills and cite something. But yeah, you totally convinced me that Hitler was a leftist by killing the Trade unionists and rising to power by blaming the communists for the Reich Stag fire https://carolynyeager.net/why-we-are-antisemites-text-adolf-hitlers-1920-speech-hofbr%C3%A4uhaus >The fight against the enemies of Truth is not an option, but a necessity. My focus is on the assault upon White European culture and homelands by those who wish to replace us. The strategists behind this assault are basically International Jewry (now partly under the guise of ""the Zionists""), the same Jewry that backed and benefited from WWI and WWII. >Because of this, I join with those who seek to revise the current, official history, especially in the areas of Adolf Hitler and National Socialism, real life in the German Third Reich, the German concentration camp system and the Jewish Deportation (commonly called the Holocaust). This is where the source of most of the lies can be found. In spite of the passage of time, anti-Germanism and anti-nationalism are still with us today. The misinformation and disinformation circulated about the subjects I named is a continuation of the drastic re-education program (commonly called de-Nazification) that was forced on the German survivors of the French-British-US-instigated horror known as World War II. It has had devastating consequences not only for the moral and spiritual character of the German people, but for the entire Western world which is now in serious decline. When the real history of a folk is stolen or distorted out of recognition, that folk is robbed of their historical identity. This is true genocide. >The evidence is overwhelming that all the people of Europe, and genetically European people everywhere, are now the victims of this concerted, long-term effort to replace their historic nations with a globalist, anti-nationalist, multi-racialist 'New World Order."" The most familiar form of this attack today is non-White immigration, demoralization of White culture, and ""hate"" legislation aimed against Whites in our White European and Americans homelands. This is what must be understood and resisted with force. Nice crazy fuck source. I can understand why you need this to be true noe Nice deflection from Hitler actually outlining why he considers himself and the movement to be socialist. If you have alternate translations of the speech feel free to link. You literally linked a white nationalist site lmao Again, do you have an alternate translation. >Again, do you have an alternate ~~translation.~~ >Again, do you have an alternate translation? FTFY How about you use your 7th grader skills and cite me the parts you're referencing, I'm not reading 20+ paragraphs about Nazi shit that you're into" Russia edges closer to being banned from Swift banking system as more EU countries support move,2398,https://www.businessinsider.com.au/russia-close-swift-ban-more-eu-countries-support-ejection-2022-2,"too much edging. Now, bust a fat one out. People should be more careful about describing something as the “nuclear option” when they’re writing about a literal conflict between nuclear powers Now taking bets, what will happen first Russia banned from swift versus Evergrande defaulting [https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-swift-expulsion-hungary-italy-sanctions-putin-1682968](https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-swift-expulsion-hungary-italy-sanctions-putin-1682968) Micronesia broke diplomatic relations so Putin can not vacation there spend his hoard. The only people who can stop this war are the Russian people. Hit Putin hard and the people will lose confidence quickly. Assuming Russia is cut off from SWIFT, how do they sell gas and oil? And how will people pay them? I know in 2022 the devil doesn't need any more advocates, but if they are removed, what incentive do they (Russia) have to not hack Swift? From what I remember the security model is a house of cards unless it's been hardened more in the last few years? [deleted] Conditions for reinstatement should go beyond full withdrawal from and reparations to Ukraine. A complete cessation of Russia-based cyber attacks and complete cooperation with international fraud investigations should be on the list. I feel sorry for the Russian people. They will suffer for decades because of Putins decisions. [deleted] Imagine if they supported the move of Ukraine into nato 🤣😂 posturing now what a crock Until the rest of Europe can find a solid fuel supply, this is not going to happen Kick Russia out of *everything* but let's start with Ukraine I’m scared Putin will feel cornered and start contemplating nuclear measures.. someone calm my anxious brain *NATO edges closer to committing to the bare minimum gesture of support for Ukraine.* Don't they have an alternative. That's why this threat didn't work years ago It’s ridiculous they haven’t done it yet, its also ridiculous they didn’t seize putin’s yacht as it was sitting in Germany Ban them already! Wake me up when theres sanctions on gas and oil Does the countries who matter do? Stop edging and take the jump. These news articles are starting to get annoying Why does he look like a great value mr potato head Jiminy Crickets!!! This should have happened the second they invaded Ukrain. Banning Russia from SWIFT would be a sanction with teeth, unlike what has been done so far. Unfortunately it’s going to hurt a lot of the Russian people that don’t agree with Putin How exactly is this expulsion decided upon? Is it a majority vote of a certain group of countries (and if so, who are the countries the get a vote)? Or do certain countries (i.e. major economic powers) have significantly more influence (e.g. a handful of countries like the USA, Germany, Japan, France, UK) and could collectively boot out Russia on their own? Edges huh? What would he have to do to actually get them to do anything? It doesn’t matter anyway. Swift is a secure messaging app. They’re making a big fuss about basically banning him from WhatsApp. How about impounding all Russian Ships? All Russian Aircraft. Using ICANN to shit down all Russian Websites. Put out an arrest warrant for him. Jeesh. …just need one or more brave souls to delete there Swift accounts in the system. How hard can that be? How credible is SWIFT removal the beginning of the end of the petrodollar? Already banned 🥰 Why is Biden M.I.A ? This sh-t not normal, he has literally disappeared as soon as the news broke! Putins folly Old news, it's a done deal Putin: *-spits out coffee-* Taylar Swift? Advisor: No The Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunication Putin: ***-spits out coffee-*** After he farts, China gives him everything the Europeans cut off and more It's done. Putin wants to expand Russia but he will bring it down. “Oh I’m going to get off” Drawing it out allows for dissent to brew internally in his cabinet. The stalling war, the economic collapse, the protests in the streets, the surrendering Russian soldiers, sanctions freezing assets of top ministers and oligarch's, now with swift sanctions on the table, the dissent talks must be bubbling to the surface. ""Cadillac is the Rolls Royce of automobiles"" The carefulness is over. The mad man has his finger on the nuclear trigger. He’s allready put it out there. Accept that this ugly toad is going to end humanity. I totally agree. I get they are in an impossible situation. But it is Russians and NOT Putin himself that are pulling the trigger and killing innocent Ukrainian kids while they sleep in their OWN beds. Enough. How the f*** is there not blood in the streets in Russia? What the hell is wrong with the Russian people that have not done a damn thing! SWIFT is just a messaging service so in theory being blocked from SWIFT doesn't mean you can't get paid, and arrangements may be made to facilitate some exchanges. For instance Gazprom might be allowed to establish an account at a German bank and receive euro payments at that location. How that helps them pay for operations in Russia...??? I would expect that European banks might manually clear a limited number of payments for goods (like oil) that they can verify in some fashion, but otherwise the Russian Central bank and the assets of the oligarchs will be largely frozen, and that is the primary objective here. They won't. That's the point. According to CNN, ""Thank Bitcoin"" https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/24/business/cryptocurrency-bitcoin-russia-sanctions/index.html european countries won’t be able to buy russian gas and oil, plus reducing gas supply might just make prices skyrocket internationally tho Asking for a freund. I mean they can't even stop a bunch of Anonymous kids from breaking their comms, leaking officials and businesspeople's banking info, taking down RT and the the web portals for Russia's Defense Ministry and the Putin administration, and blasting other official government sites and servers with gay porn, how they gonna do anything to SWIFT that we can't see coming or immediately fix? [Your understanding is about 5 hours out of date](https://www.euractiv.com/section/europe-s-east/news/russia-ban-from-swift-on-the-table-as-germany-drops-opposition/). Full withdrawal including Crimea Agree. People are tlaking about seizing russian central bank assets and all the talk about seizing assets in general has me very weary. I don't want an extremely pissed off putin. If he does it means the end of Russia as a country. The us would also be devastated but would it be worth it to Russia? Nope. No one wants nukes involved and any talk about them is designed to scare people. He's not going to be pushing a big red button labeled ""NUKES"" on it from his office. He has to give the order and it has to be carried out. There's a pretty good chance that along the chain of command several cases of insubordination, with varying degrees of violence, would occur. It's not a popular war amongst the Russian population. Oh come on man. NATO is doing everything they can and they are doing it wonderfully. Why is it people must complain about EVERYTHING. This is literally a masterclass right now. Not a single country has intervened militarily. And if they did we don’t know what could happen, it could be catastrophic. Edit: So many people are uninformed and it shows. You’re enabling someone who is very ill-informed by upvoting his original comment. I urge you to to read and gain the correct knowledge. Germany really dropped the god damn ball on this one. Maybe it wasn’t so smart putting all your energy in the hands of a tyrant Unfortunately maybe that’s what we need. Russian people need to stand taller than ever on this one. Maybe he’s busy doing his actual job of negotiating with other world leaders [deleted] Go back to where all the trolls live in r/conservative He mustered a weeks worth of coherence for that one appearance and must now go to hibernation A little grim for most, I’d say…. But the fact that he has missile screens, and hypersonic nukes means that destruction is no longer mutual. You ma be correct. Look i too wish to see this regime toppled and the people of Russia come out on top. But they are a seriously oppressed bunch when it comes to speaking out, the fear they feel is what allows putin and the like to do what they do without fear or reaction or recourse. So I can 100% see why they haven’t gone too hard yet, but to even protest the way they are is still standing up for something. Is it enough? Not yet, but in their shoes I can see why the apprehension may exist. There’s multiple protests going on with some of former or current government figures and even private company openly criticizing it. And they’re getting arrested. (Do you remember Navalny?) It’s the situation akin to China. Getting the voice heard is already very risky move. Perhaps they’re treated by gov more or less like Capitol attack protesters. Years of Propaganda is a powerful thing, especially amongst the uneducated masses. But the dissent is brewing!! If russian banks have limited transaction capability they can quickly become insolvent, knowledge of this can cause a run. It’s serious stuff honestly. If that's the point, then the SWIFT cut off will hurt Europe more than it hurts Russia. Europe get some huge percentage of its oil and gas from Russia. Cut off that supply and watch the prices skyrocket. Is Germany planning to pay with bitcoin? They’re still gonna be buying gas, but I didn’t hear anything about bitcoin [deleted] Of course. Fuck putin. And fuck Russia too for supporting this invasion. Europe is more united today than at any time in my life. If they can stand up to putin the US will also. Thats a guaranteed loser for Russia. This is the only way to prevent a larger conflict. If we don't stand together now then we will fall separately. No, they aren't. I mostly blame them for putting themselves in this situation to begin with. This problem only exists because they let Putin control their gas. The masterclass would have been avoiding this obvious trap, that so many people warned them of. You mean sending out tweets and displaying blue and yellow lights at night? That's your master class? For perspective, this is barely more than the West does when Palestine is attacked and we all know the West doesn't give a shit about Palestine. Lots of protesting by the Russian people. They don’t agree with their government and the ones showing it are being mistreated and jailed. Nah they guys here for the pay check This guys a lame duck and a good representative for the US population It’s amazing how butt hurt you guys get over this guy. He’s a shit president admit it This guys a total disaster My belief is that we really have no way of knowing how well those defense systems will work considering it hasn’t really been tested on that sort of scale in a real-life scenario. The scariest part is that this invasion is happening to begin with. Like, when Russia is defying all political strategy and even India and China are asking them to just chill the fuck out, we move into a realm of entire uncertainty. The majority Russian people seem to not be on board with the invasion, but that doesn’t necessarily translate to their military. Without a massive WW3 type situation occurring, the only way I see this deescalating is a coup (ideally with reparations to Ukraine afterwards). I’m not a fuckin expert on any of these topics that I’m discussing by any means though, so form your own opinions. I guess I’m just kind of using this forum to talk about my thoughts on it because these are some crazy times and I’m interested in hearing everyone’s thoughts/feelings on it. Anyone have anything else they want to say about it? > But they are a seriously oppressed bunch when it comes to speaking out Ok. I fully get that. But their fellow countrymen are murdering innhocent kids in Ukrain. They have done nothing to stop Putin. He has run the country in the ground and still nothing. He is trying to start WW3 and nothing. Are we going to say the same thing about the Russian people 10 years from now? It is not nearly enough. It is actually pretty pathetic. There needs to be a lot more done internally within Russia. It is their leader that is trying to start WW3. Prices are already high. Germany gets about 40 % of its gas from Russia. But it’s spring and our reservoirs hold enough gas for this season. Our government is working on plans to help lower income families pay at least part of the difference in prices. We will take the economic Hit. It’s the least we can do. (Also sending weapons finally). We can afford the gas prices. No one will freeze or suffer too much here. And it’s another great reason to become less reliant on fossil fuels. Everybody knows it will hurt us but Russia has gone too far and can not be kept on ""diplomatic talks"" with a clean conscience any more. The people of Europe are now united more than in a long time and are assembling to send relief aid, accept refugees, even send weapons to Ukraine. Paying a bit more for energy is acceptable. We can afford it. There are more important things than money. In Europe, we will have higher prices. In Russia, they'll have no economy. Bit of a difference. Progress update, you’re nein hours out of date Wow you really think nato controls the energy policy of its members? Do you even know what nato is? NATO doesn’t control what countries decide to do for their energy. Stop. Your dumb At some stage in our life the fight for something greater will happen. For Russia this is their moment, the moment we also need globally to reduce the leaders of Russia to nothing, Ukraine will already be far more important in the history book than whatever putin is trying for his own ends. I get your frustration and I to agree, at what stage do the Russians say enough and enact a revolution the world has yet to see in decades. I do not believe we will say the same about the Russians 10 years from now, I think the world will view Russia different. We can only hope that they, the Russians see this for what it is, not what they are told. You said it yourself, their fellow countrymen are being murdered for my home country of australia that would be like invading New Zealand, it wouldn’t sit well. So we just basically have to hope, they see it this way too. Which they do, the tide will rise, for as long as people feel they can create change. If you raise your weapon against the state they’ll kidnap or kill your family. I don’t give a shit what happens to me, but my mission on this earth is to protect my children. The situation is not simple. If it was things would be different, I can assure you. Reading Navalny’s news in last few years, it seems really pathetic. Country attempted to literally poison the opposition leader of registered party multiple times, and he kept on coming back. I think he’s the bravest and boldest leader, but then even he resigned in the end. Same for China. It’s not hard to find the story for those who risked life just to get their voice to be heard on the other end just to get thrown in jail for punishments. I don’t think it’s possible to do this because the government actually does have power. The truth here is that the power wins it for better or worse. As were recently reminded by Afghanistan, foreign intervention won’t actually fix their inner problems anyways, so people can only wish they’d pull it off by themselves somehow. I feel bad for common people in Ukraine and Russia but I don’t have andI don’t want to have any suggestion for them (like fix their politics and all). Just hoping the West wouldn’t spread problem across the globe for their political interests any worse. You expect a redditor to be informed before making a comment?! Lol. Yes, they do. It was their own fault. The US and a few NATO allies stopped the pipeline for four years. That's a fact. This administration lifted those sanctions because Germany was accusing the US of being selfish. Russia did exactly what the US predicted. If Germany valued the people of Ukraine as much as it valued cheap gas, this wouldn't have happened. Their politicians fucked up their energy policy, and they decided to give Putin billions of dollars to fix it. Doubling down? Yes, I will double down and teach reddit the basic facts of what happened, if they haven't followed this saga, and no one else is explaining it to them. NATO should have sanctioned and sent all of their support the minute Russia put troops on their border for the attack that everyone had been predicting for years. Better yet, NATO should have told the German chancellor that the sovereignty of Ukraine was more important then Germany's self inflicted energy costs. NATO doesn’t have the authority to send in troops to defend a non NATO member. Countries will have to do that outside of NATO. NATO is just a small number of countries. A minority of them could have agreed to avoid this situation, as they successfully did for years when they sanctioned Russia for even trying to build the pipeline, who's entire purpose was to create this situation. If they ""couldn't"" send support outside of NATO when it was requested, then they ""can't"" send it now either. That logic gets you no where, because, of course, they could have. Germany idiotically chose cheap gas over the sovereignty of Ukraine. We have been saying this is exactly what would happen, and you guys are still ignoring what happened, telling the people who were mocked for predicting this that they don't really understand the situation now that their prediction was correct and their naysayers are proven to have embarrassingly miscalculated. There's nothing NATO can do now. It's too late. Russia won. You just don't realize that yet either." "Goldman Sachs to exit Russia, first major Wall St bank to quit",2379,https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/goldman-sachs-exit-russia-bloomberg-news-2022-03-10/,"They will be back the second it’s profitable The full text of the article follows below: # Goldman Sachs to exit Russia, first major Wall St bank to quit By Niket Nishant and Matt Scuffham March 10 (Reuters) - Goldman Sachs Group Inc (GS.N) said on Thursday it was closing its operations in Russia, becoming the first major Wall Street bank to exit the country following Moscow's invasion of Ukraine. Operating in Moscow has been increasingly difficult for Western financial institutions amid international sanctions against Russia. ""Goldman Sachs is winding down its business in Russia in compliance with regulatory and licensing requirements,"" the bank said in an emailed statement. A source familiar with the situation said Goldman would wind down the operations rather than exit them immediately. The loss due to the exit would be immaterial, the source said. In its annual filing earlier, the bank had disclosed a credit exposure to Russia of $650 million. Bank of International Settlements data shows that U.S. bank exposure to Russia totals $14.7 billion. read more Citigroup Inc (C.N) said on Wednesday it was operating its Russian consumer business on a more limited basis while sticking with its previous plans to divest the franchise. read more Other U.S. banks operating in Russia include JPMorgan (JPM.N), which declined to comment on what its plans were. Deutsche Bank will swoop in to take it’s place. EDIT- We must have really shamed Deutsche; 24 hours after this was posted, they announced they’re pulling out too. 😄👍🏻 More coverage at: * [Goldman Sachs is pulling out of Russia, the first major Wall Street bank to cut ties since the invasion of Ukraine (msn.com)](https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/goldman-sachs-is-pulling-out-of-russia-the-first-major-wall-street-bank-to-cut-ties-since-the-invasion-of-ukraine/ar-AAUSLfO) * [Goldman Sachs winding down Russia business (marketwatch.com)](https://www.marketwatch.com/story/goldman-sachs-winding-down-russia-business-2022-03-10?siteid=msnheadlines) * [Goldman Sachs shutters Russia business, first major Wall Street bank to leave after Ukraine war (cnbc.com)](https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/10/goldman-is-closing-down-its-russia-business-making-it-among-the-first-wall-street-banks-to-do-so.html) --- ^(I'm a bot to find news from different sources.) [^(Report an issue)](https://www.reddit.com/user/MultiSourceNews_Bot/comments/k5pcrc/multisourcenews_bot_info/) ^(or PM me.) [deleted] Have they finally unloaded all their Russia exposed bags? Is Morgan Stanley right behind then? When Goldman Sachs doesn’t even want your money… Did they not just buy Russian bonds Goldman Sachs is quitting Russia? Well, that's one less thing to worry about on Reddit. Where there is no potential for profit, there is no need for presence. I'm sure they are keeping the pieces in place for a hasty return when it is a viable situation again. Yoooo, this is gonna be crazy... So like a dump then pump??? Dear God, if GS is out Russia must be a true cesspool. Wall Street banks are awesome. [deleted] Can they quit here too? They’ve f*cked over the entire world at least once. Sure as sh*t aren’t loyal except to themselves. Fuck Goldman sachs The CEO of Goldman Sachs is actually a cool guy. He’s an EDM disc jockey and plays at music festivals all over. He opened a record label called Payback Records - something Russia might have trouble doing. Ban commodity trading on oil and gas for the duration of this conflict! Goldminnie Suchs will be opening on Monday. Trading floor comprised of 1st year economic students from Minsk university. & they will raise their fees in every other country to make up for their lost in profits. Is that a flying pig??!?!?! aBout fkkn time They're only doing this to protect profits, definitely not for moral reasons. Strange how the media was doing article after article about how businesses like mcdonalds that have huge brick and mortar investments in russia should “boycott” russia when they really meant they should forfeit their holdings in russia. But i didnt see a single article trying to shame banks into boycotting russia which would be more of an actual boycott. Its almost like the big banks have huge sway over the main stream media… Actually there is a loophole that enables them to trade russian bonds to hedge funds, they are marketing it as a great investment lol. So dont trust those idiots. The loophole is there to enable bond holders to exit their positions, but those rats use it to trade hahah Late pull out by Goldman. Baby Goldman are already flourishing Even a vampire squid knows when the well’s poisoned Goldman Sachs could exit the world, not just Russia. Anyone want to share financial sites subscriptions like SeekingAlpha, CNBC, Bloomberg? PM me please. All the companies that are leaving now will provide overwhelming “support” to whoever takes power when Putin is done. With Russia nationalizing the assets of any company that ceased operations, that’s unlikely. No one wants to invest in a market this volatile. If that means when Russia stops bombing civilians, then good “When there is blood on the streets - even if it is your own blood - buy land.” You’d assume this was their tactics if they did it for raw profits? Russia will only be profitable if they listen to the wests demands. At that point I don't mind them returning. [deleted] Pump and dump baby And buy up a shit load if Russian assets when they do And Deutche Bank will be there waiting for them. Banks love making profit even for good or evil, Banks, McDonald’s, Netflix and everyone else who says they’re “pulling out of Russia” will be back. It’s just business. I don’t think Deutsche can feel shame, or it would have withered from it long ago They first announced they were staying, then backtracked due to backlash. Exactly! All their bags must already been offed to some unaware/naive clients I’m actually wondering if Russians will be better off at least doing their part. Stupid That's a great way to bring on WWIII and WWIV. Communists located ?!! Well yeah I mean hopefully. We don't want Russia to be completely excluded from the world. They don't need to invest their own money. They can just wrap something together and then call it a good investment product sell it to others and earn profit. Sure, but let’s stop pretending multinational corporations and banks are the good guys, just because there are worse people out there. No, I would prefer corporations not deal with dictators who recently committed war crimes in an attempt to topple a sovereign democracy, just because it’s profitable. There is a loophole in sanctions allowing them to off the bags on hedge funds. Headlines for show. [deleted] Sure, but multinational corporations create monopolies wherever they can, that’s not a great thing. Why not? China too while we’re at it [deleted] make sense, so title should include something in that regards. I'd be more worried about China cleaning up the trash in both Ukraine and Russia Because it is not the people guilty but the leaders I wish you were correct Sorry, guys! I did not. Scott Pilgrim Who is saying that? Dont break his strawman argument. He's like a precious Don Quichotte 2.0, he created his own giants to fight out of windmills Emotionally charged redditors" Goldman Sachs cuts US economic forecast after Joe Manchin rejects Build Back Better,2351,https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/19/economy/goldman-sachs-joe-manchin-build-back-better/index.html,">The Wall Street firm told clients Sunday it no longer assumes President Joe Biden's signature legislation will get through the narrowly divided Congress, citing the West Virginia Democrat's announcement that he's a ""no"" on the $1.75 trillion bill. ""With headline CPI reaching as high as 7% in the next few months in our forecast before it begins to fall, the inflation concerns that Sen. Manchin and others have already expressed are likely to persist, making passage more difficult,"" Goldman Sachs economists wrote. There is a lot of uncertainty over the fate of the expanded child tax credit that was a key part of Build Back Better and Goldman Sachs called this the ""most important question for the near-term outlook."" So…. Looking at the market, EVERYTHING is red So Joe Manchin decided to tank the stock market for Christmas More coverage at: * [Goldman Sachs cuts U.S. GDP forecast after Manchin retreats on Biden's bill (msn.com)](https://www.msn.com/en-US/news/markets/goldman-sachs-cuts-u-s-gdp-forecast-after-manchin-retreats-on-biden-s-bill/ar-AARYV2J) * [Goldman cuts U.S. growth forecast after Sen. Joe Manchin rejects Biden’s $2 trillion spending plan (marketwatch.com)](https://www.marketwatch.com/story/goldman-cuts-u-s-growth-forecast-after-sen-joe-manchin-rejects-bidens-2-trillion-spending-plan-11639984011?siteid=msnheadlines) * [Goldman Sachs cuts U.S. growth forecast on Joe Manchin's Build Back Better opposition (theweek.com)](https://theweek.com/joe-manchin/1008237/goldman-sachs-cuts-us-growth-forecast-on-joe-manchins-build-back-better) --- ^(I'm a bot to find news from different sources.) [^(Report an issue)](https://www.reddit.com/user/MultiSourceNews_Bot/comments/k5pcrc/multisourcenews_bot_info/) ^(or PM me.) And a majority of West Virginians want to see BBB passed. So the question is, who benefits from Manchin killing this bill? Only answer is his financial backers, particularly the oil and gas companies, who have a financial interest in killing infrastructure that creates more green and renewable energy sources. I usually say democracy can’t survive this level of corruption, but in this case I think it’s fair to say *humanity* can’t survive this level of corruption. Manchin is as crooked as they come, and he’s currently selling out the health and stability of the entire planet to benefit a few rich, short-sighted oligarchs. This has to change. Edit: And to add on to this we also shouldn’t forget about the other 50 Republican Senators, who’d rather kill us all than give Biden a win. Republicans don't get to comment on the US deficit, being responsible for most of it: https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2020/09/27/trump-will-create-more-debt-than-obama/?sh=6a9dc2e312f1 Now Y'all wouldn't be hypocrites would you? And FYI, the $2 Trillion bill is over 10 years, so only $200 Billion a year. The US is fucked. Republicans are evil and Democrats are incompetent. Glad I'm not American! [deleted] Can they kick Manchin out of the party? Judging by the comments on here, this sub should be renamed progressive finance Manchin is a sacrificial lamb. If you think the other Dems couldn't leverage him into doing what they need him to do, you're out to lunch. They're all paid off by the same companies but there's no point in all of them tainting their reputation. Enter Manchin to shoulder the blame for all of them and walk away from this with a fat pay cheque. Kinda crazy that in a “democracy” for 300 million it all comes down to what one old white guy wants Edit: apparently he’s the biggest recipient of coal oil and gas contributions than anyone else. I think I found out why he’s against the bill… Edit2: crazy that everyone fixated on the “white” or “guy” part. It’s crazy that one individual is the deciding factor Yeah thanks jerkoff joe… for tanking the economy AND the environment to keep lining your pockets. A hero among cowards What are the chances we can get two republicans to join? This man is garbage..... Looking at the M1 & the M2 money supply inflation is definitely going to get a lot worse. and Core CPI doesn't take energy and volatile foods into account. Read somewhere that bacon is up 16% year over year. Add on the supply chain troubles and the amount of people leaving the work-force and I don't see how spending any more will be feasible. Every dollar the government now spends just adds to this problem. They helicopter dropped money in 2020 and 2021 and now the bill is due. So we could have a recovery but instead manchin and republicans rather see the us economy tank for money and win 2022 seats American Hero,, who needs more inflation I mean when inflation is at record levels do we really need to be passing these outrageous spending bills? I think it could wait and a focus on stabilizing our economy should be first BUT THE ECONOMY!?!?!? I'm sure all the stocks except for coal and netflix are dropping. I'm so torn on this because it's one of the few times left leaning news sources are vibing on Goldman.... (And I can say this guilt free as an apolitical animal) I'm chuckling, thinking ""aren't we suppose to not trust the Sachs folks?"" But I guess they're cool now? Huh. In other words, Goldman can’t make the massive greedy profits n get the handouts it wants I imagine not allowing them to loot $2 trillion from the American tax payers might have some impact on the markets. When one pathetic loser can throw a wrench in the life of many. Is it really a democracy. These people forgot the country is people. Not tax codes. Then again. Did they ever care. Edit: 51 pathetic unapologetic evil losers. Who don't care about the people in the borders of the country they claim to represent. Disgusting human beings. If they are even human. Because it’s a load of garbage filled with misplaced priorities and pet projects. [deleted] Why is Manchin's vote really important here? Is the bill that tight when it comes to necessary votes? Fuck the build back better plan. Thankfully at least one Politician has a brain in Washington! Manchin: Screw y’all! I already gots mine biotch! Has AOC and the rest of the commie squad labeled him a racist yet? I think joe did the financially responsible thing > We're trillions dollars in debt, let's spend more on government handouts, gender studies, and 9% of it on actual infrastructure. -Dipshit liberal Thank you senator Manchin for having some brains. Don't need inflation any higher. Who elected this guy to be the most powerful politician in America? These leftists are bankrupting america. Anyone with a knowledge of basic finance and economics knows the growth is purely debt driven. America died in 2001; it just hasn’t realized it. Joseph McCarthy was right all along. Hopefully the senate will apologize. [removed] Amazing how this one Leno chinned dick can sink the entire country, thanks Boomer The plan for economic renewal and sustainable, climate friendly energy depended on West Virginia? I’m absolutely gobsmacked it didn’t work. I’ll be honest.. I really liked that child tax credit. Damn you Jerkoff Joe! Hell of a “democracy” we live in where 1 man can make millions of lives worse for people that didn’t even vote for him. 2 really good reasons to let the bill pass with his concerns. 1. Inflation might be an issue yes, but even more reason to lend money now for almost no interest than having to do it later when your economy is slowing down and heading for a possible recession. It will be so much harder and more expensive to counter this. By investing now you prevent the economy from slowing down too fast and postpone a future recession with a year or maybe even two. It gives you time to prepare policy for this. 2. Inflation will eat your debt. Every $ today will be less worth tomorrow. So inflation will have a positive future effect on decreasing your debt. And as mentioned before; they can lend money really cheap at the moment so interest will be minimum as well. Dawg, I hate joe manchin, just something about the guy pisses me off. Fuck nugget How interesting that the most powerful man in the most powerful country in the world is NOT the elected president but a senator from a small poor state. We need to honestly just pay this shitbag off ourselves. He’s getting paid millions to ruin things in the trillions. Let him have his blood money and let the country get on with business. I want to call his office and leave a vm to weigh in and share my feelings. He should be publicly shamed. He owns a yacht. It hurts. He really is a selfish pathetically corrupt individual. It makes me so sad. We all have to call. We should be in the streets. We can organize ahead of that vote. We could change his mind Coincidence How is one guy allowed to hold an entire country hostage like he does? As someone who represents a state that would greatly benefit from these types of programs he certainly doesn’t seem to have his voters in mind. There has been so much time to work with the party and try to get your opinion heard. His public disapproval, and announcement on Fox News are all a show. Democrats need unity and simply cannot get it together. This will be a loss for a lot of people. Coming from one of the poorest states in the country, this certainly includes those he is supposed to represent. Let’s fire the Senate majority leader for being a dead (not lame) kosher duck. This would never have happened in the GOP with the Turtle… i see Joe Manchin’s point Manchin and the entire GOP Surprised to see the types of responses on here given it is a finance sub... I am not anti-government, but as American's living in a capitalistic society, we need to face the fact that the government is the WORST capital allocator in this nation - sans any outliers. That being said, why would we entrust a nearly $2T spending spree to a government that has proven time and time again that that capital, would be better to spread to the private sector. In an already inflationary environment, this is the worst type of bill we could imagine - no government program is temporary. Now I do support parts of the bill, but I HATE when Democrats conflate ideals and have a fuck-fest and shove as much into a bill as they can. Everyone is trying to push their agenda and this is a fat and inflated bill. I don't disagree with government spending, but this bill is outrageous. Pass every part of the bill separately, I can't imagine the precedent this would set - a $2T, the bi-partisan bill would give Republicans enough ammo to do anything in the coming years if they ever have legislative authority. Child-tax credits are amazing, and I hate being called an-antiprogressive for not supporting this bill. It's like going to the grocery store for an Apple and being forced to buy a pizza, ham, bananas, soup, brussel sprouts, and ice cream. I just want an apple today, maybe tomorrow it makes sense to buy a pizza, but stop with this It WiLl ChAnGe AmErIcA fOrEvEr BS - it's a fantasy and anyone that has looked at this bill knows the majority of it is a farce. Like Nancy said, ""You will find out what's in the bill after you sign it."" Again, let's not forget who we are giving this money to. No matter where it comes from, it is still a low-quality idea. And for those who would ask what I would want, well pass the IMPORTANT parts (child tax credit esque, stuff that there is tangible results and public support behind) and leave the other capital investment ""equity"" BS alone. Empower the private industry, and regulate and tax efficiently, not everything can or should be solved by the government. It should empower people, not feed and wipe their asses. >expanded child tax credit Lots of people, myself included, are skipping having kids because it costs too much. This being a reason he is saying no to the bill is telling the American people that we don't need a new generation. That will be interesting. I'm not having kids also because: 1. The housing market is a stock market and the rents are just below what it would cost to just buy a place. So that's a fun little state to be in. 2. The copious amount of in-fighting we have in this country 3. Severe lack of public school funding. It's like we want more uneducated people in this country. 4. Speaking of school, higher education is a cruel joke on the less wealthy. Like it's some golden ticket to the disappearing middle class. 5. The world is becoming more and more trashed. 6. I feel like the world wants me to have a child just to create another person for the workforce. To that I say, I and any potential children that I have are not just meat for the grinder. This world is sick, dying, and those in charge are just focused on their own agenda and that of their sponsors. Those are fair concerns. “West Virginia Republican’s”. FTFY. [deleted] Yea I don’t think this is the main driver… omicron fears + fed tapering are much bigger headlines. Travel is up Joe Manchin is one man. There are 50 other senators as well who are ""no"" I don’t think that had much of an impact. The Fed announcement of rate hikes and persistent inflation throughout 2022 is likely to blame.. although even with rate hikes, traditionally with High inflation, would make sense to keep your money in the stock market. Unless you switch to precious metals or crypto, not sure where you invest to protect assets. Bond yields are still going to be terrible, even with the proposed increase in rates.. idk we shall see What will we possibly do with stocks up only 24% year-to-date? It's like Manchin doesn't realize working families are impacted more by their SPY calls than food and rent prices soaring at rates we haven't seen in 50 years. Blame Bidenomics! Manchin has a brain! Good bot No, polling shows West Virginians are opposed to BBB by about a 3-1 margin. Problem is, when pollsters ask people about a single policy in a vacuum it polls a lot better than asking about an entire package taking into account tax increases etc. Edit: thank you for the award whomever that was! I think he also gets 500k in dividend income from it from coal companies since I think he might've been a coal baron and has a son who is an executive in a coal compmay. Manchin needs to switch to Republican to win his Senate seat again. No way WV votes for a democrat again. He already almost lost in 2018. A majority of WV voters clearly do not want BBB, or at least not if it is attributed to Dems. No, the majority of west Virginians do not want to see BBB passed. Any poll that indicates any support for it asks nebulous questions and misleading for the poll participant. Look at the questions they are actually asked. If Americans supported the current administration's agenda they would be polling better than 40%. That is Donald Trump's territory. Dont you think that if the majority supported this the people would support the president who received the most votes of any person running for any office in American history? Rather than him being one of the least popular president's in American history only 1 year into his presidency? That ain’t it, chief. But mostly to benefit himself. Bahhhhh you sound like a liberal cheerleader Everyone benefits from the bill not passing. Inflation is no joke and this bill would mean more money printing No voters ANYWHERE that aren't habitually politically engaged or progressive activists are paying any attention to ""Build Back Better"", or have any idea what ""Build Back Better"" is about. This has absolutely zero political cost to Manchin and NOTHING is going to get done unless he WANTS it to get done. I was listening to the 538 pod tonight bemoaning the fact that Democrats have weirdly been pretending they can do something that's NOT exactly what Manchin wants. Unless they plan to recruit one or two of the persuadable Republicans they get NOTHING on this unless it's exactly what Manchin wants. (And for some reason are ignoring the incredible multi-trillion $ bills they've ALREADY gotten through). If you want progressive policies, win more elections including Senate seats in Red States (since the Senate isn't going anywhere and unless Red States occasionally elect Democrats, Republicans will ALWAYS control the Senate which is undemocratic by design and intent). Let me ask you this, who benefits from inflation? Is it ordinary everyday people or big corporations and ill even give you a hint, its not the people. This is a fact that most people seem to forget. At least manchin hasnt. Every president spends more than the last, the Deficit-GDP ratio is constantly trending upward. If you actually believe Biden will have spent less at the end of his 4 years than Trump did in his then that's a bet I'll take all day. [deleted] Fk u and all the commies that are contributing to the demise of this country. [deleted] Close. Democrats are blatantly evil and republicans are useless and incompetent Democrats are the same as republicans they just lie. Reds at least are honest about being shitty I’m glad you’re not, either ✌️ Better than California or New York imo He’s threatened to leave the party and go independent recently. They would lose senate majority. That’s not good When a post like this hits the popular or trending page, lots of people who don’t follow the sub (or understand/work in finance) start flooding in to give their political opinion. “Inflation hit 7% but who cares lets spend another couple trillion on another decade long government project that will definitely go completely as planned and remain under budget because we all know the government is the epitome of efficiency and has never wasted money ever” Sad but true. Sometimes I forget at the end of the day that this is still Reddit. Seriously Come on, get real. You think the senate democrats all got together and agreed Joe Manchin will be the sole no? And that Joe Manchin would have agreed to be the sacrificial lamb? He's still the one doing it. Sacrificial lamb or not. He's the one doing the deed. It seems that he sees a bigger fat paycheck with killing the bill. There are 50 other Senators voting no also. “OnE olD wHIte GUy” Could have been anyone. Quit injecting that bullshit into the conversation as though race or age has anything to do with it. It’s a cheap, low tactic that’s used when there’s nothing else of substance to contribute. Whats the race or gender have to do with it? Plenty of women were never going to vote for this bill. Would it be less crazy if it was one young black woman? What does ageism, racism, or sexism has to do with it? No need to be racist man. One old white guy who makes money from coal stocks... . It’s a representative republic not a democracy. It’s how ill considered poorly managed legislation gets stuffed in the dustbin of history. We’re a democratic republic. Because Old White Guy isn't just a general description of who he is but instead is implied to be an insult of Joe Manchin which would generally be considered racist and sexist by today's standards. [deleted] I am absolutely sure there are more then two that can be bought. I have been rereading “The Bully Pulpit” and seeing the direct reflection of corporate greed and corruption that controls our legislative system is staggering. They just need to tax down the money supply and then they can keep spending. Inflation is the only concern, and taxation is the solution. Tell me you don’t understand economics without telling me you don’t understand economics. [deleted] Our economy is very complex, right? Simplifying it to 'don't spend money on ourselves when inflation high' seems logical, like 'don't go out to eat this month since it's Christmas season and you're over budget, and gonna socialize and eat a ton anyway.' so we take a moment though go see what the money was for, tldr vital infrastructure federal taxes were designed for. I can see how in poor, antivax antimask states they're gonna want more direct stimulus than this build back better, andor how many corps argue that will only come from less fed spending, but the generation ahead of us needs better infrastructure is what I see in my day-to-day. What do you think would provide stability considering historically these bills usually don't pass when the economy is optimistic? The entire point of this headline is that BBB passing would be a net benefit to the economy and that we’re actually more unstable b/c Manchin won’t support it. You have no idea how the economy works, do you? What do you think this bill is ""spending"" money on? [deleted] It’s sad how many downvotes this has. I mean if passed, it would have been a structural change in the system. Short term inflation, short term economic impact, etc is not really what’s important And I thought I was dumb. Ingles por favor It's 51 ""pathetic losers"" actually sir Which part of the bill do you see has misplaced priorities? Red wave is coming thanks to the dems being incompetent. [deleted] Vote is straight down party lines. Without him, it is 49 D’s to 50 R’s for a R’s win. D’s would need the 50/50 with a tie break by the VP for the bill to pass. Yes. They were supposed to pass infrastructure and BBB together, but progressives caved and buckled and gave up like they always do and surprise, they got steamrolled again and got nothing done. Biden didnt bother to push for it, so now Manchin rules America I guess. Democrats are going to be obliterated in 2022 and it will be all their fault. Have you been totally out of the loop for the past 12 months? Republicans vote against anything the Democrats bring to a vote, and the Democrats only have a majority if every Democrat votes yes. Manchin voting no kills any bill. Which part specifically do you have problems with? Are there any specific policies you find unacceptable? Zero republicans have brains Don't forget. Every single republican voted No. They want you to blame democrats but this is all on Republicans and a corpo plant. Commie squad? Are you thick? The military budget for 2020 was $725 billion >Gender studies The leading cause of all economic hardship according to the conservative intelligentsia Lmao reddit is so stupid! Are all of you fresh out of high school or something because yall clearly don't know shit about economics. Since 2001, the federal government has been majority Republican/conservative more often than not. It’s republicans and conservatives that engineer forever wars and push for exponential military spending, it’s republicans and conservatives who keep costing us billions in revenue from tax cuts to the ultra wealthy. All while doing everything in their power to restrict stimulus and aid for the bulk of the country that would lead to a healthier, more productive, and more solvent populace. They literally take from the poor to give to the rich. But none of that matters because the oligarchs have their hooks in the heads of too many people like you. Singing their song, carrying their water. But don’t worry sweet perfect boy, you could never do or think anything wrong. Says the party who gave a trillion dollars to billionaires and tried to call that economic policy lmao 🤡 Clearly slept through Trump's bailouts. Stop blaming boomers AGEIST. . Wait til you figure out that 50 other senators voted against it, and the only reason people have pissy pampers over it is because this man didn’t vote along arbitrary party lines 1. Inflation might be an issue, so we should create more inflation by printing even more money. 2. Inflation will eat debt, so let’s get into as much debt as possible. I don’t think these are the correct solutions to have about this problem. He's a corpo plant. It’s not one man, it was 51 people that were against this massive inflation engine. The man is 74, he only got his grandkids in mind to whomever pays him more for stacking more greens in his estate. Yup. It sucks so bad. I really want to have kids but it is not and likely will not be feasible until I’m like 35-40. But who knows where we will be at that point… That is not supported by evidence. Poor people tend to have more kids than the financially well off. Lots of countries, such as Japan, have tried giving people more money to have them and it hasn't really worked. >Severe lack of public school funding. It's like we want more uneducated people in this country. The primary factor in birthrates seems to be educational attainment of women. If anything, cutting education funding would likely increase birthrates. Maybe this is a long-term plan for Rs dump Social Security entirely. Its not great now, but once our population growth slows and Gen X moves to retirement there won't be enough support in Gen Alpha to keep it afloat. I know that's a conspiracy theory, but I'm finding that the only time Rs come together to form a long term plan its to destroy something beneficial. Number 3 is entirely true, the right has been pushing an anti science, anti education position for at least a decade. Terrifying The world has always been controlled by powerful elite and there will always be strife in the world. You forgot about healthcare in the US. True if I knew the world was going to be like this I would have never had kids it’s to much worry 😵‍💫 [deleted] Manchin is a cancer killing America’s tomorrow. And we’re just standing around letting him breathe our air. Can confirm, in my mid-30s and the thought of having kids is so unpalatable that my wife and I agreed at this point a vasectomy makes more sense. Don’t even want to chance it anymore. The world is a mess beyond reproach and the United States and it’s owners have made it perfectly clear that they don’t care about you, me, or anyone else who isn’t in the top 1%. So, as /u/UnflavoredAdonis said, I’m not interested in creating more taxpayers, workers to suffer whatever the hell the planet looks like in the next 25 or so years, or meat for the grinder. The only winning move is to not play and I’m not gonna create more players to struggle against a deck stacked against them. There are many valid criticisms of everyday life. This is true. Huge issues with allocation of capital, implications of late stage capitalism. All valid concerns and things to discuss. These “reasons” however are utter nonsense. Things are much better than you portray. This type of “giving up” merely reflects your desire to abdicate any type of responsibility. It’s nihilism and narcissism and frankly won’t get you anywhere. I hope your mental state improves. They have ALWAYS had people feeling this way. Always. Social media has put all of these issues RIGHT in your face. There was a time my parents didnt go to school becuase they were worried about getting attacked by russians. I couldnt afford kids 16 years ago and lucked out and had twins. My wife had to stop working. We couldnt afford daycare and have her work. I couldnt afford rent or a condo. I moved an hour out of town so i could BARELY afford something. 16 years later things are better. If you wanted kids, you would make it work. Its a sacrifice some dont, or cant make. With your mindset though, dont bring a kid into this world. Just roll over. You are clearly depressed. Having a kid is the best thing I ever did. There are also easy solutions to the housing and college issues you mentioned. Public schools here are great. Not sure where you are that has a combo of high housing costs and shitty schools, but you should probably move. #THIS THE REALEST THING I’VE SEEN ALL YEAR. IF I HAD MONEY TO SPEND, I WOULD RAIN AWARDS ON YOU. SOMEONE HELP US…PLEASE So... what are you doing about any of this? Posting your gripes is not enough. [deleted] Well fucking said. The US needs to overhaul education, housing, and climate investments in order for more people to have children, avoiding what happened to Japan would be awesome I know this is mentioned a lot but no one really explains this… Do we really have a lack of public school funding? Looking at OECD countries, the USA comes in around 5th with spending per student on k-12 education. This doesn’t seem to me to be “severe lack of funds” https://www.statista.com/statistics/238733/expenditure-on-education-by-country/ This Robbin the cradle while there’s still things to rob I think what's even more depressing is how terrible our public schools are even though we're at the top of the list in dollar spent per student. Deep deep problems there. Then adopt, you will satisfy your need to raise a child while helping take the burden off of the state. And, if you care as much as it seems you do, you can be a good influence on said child. Potentially changing a lifetime full of struggle and wasted talent into a lifetime of achievement for the benefit of all humanity. I had my only child at 39, but I made damn sure we were financially stable when we did. My husband wanted a second, but I said, one will cost us enough. ;-) If they really care about the child tax credit they wouldn’t have bundled it with wasteful spending and less popular programs. If they put out just the child tax credit it would pass. If they put out just universal Pre-k it would pass. From what I read this still may get done (the child tax credit)…apparently it’s other things, such as limitations on oil, that caused a major hindrance for Manchin. But neither of those things were new. They were happening last week. We’ve known about it for too long for that to be the issue. The market has already adjusted to the fears from the new variant. Unless there’s new news about it I highly doubt that’s the catalyst for today. It's always up the week before Christmas. And? In this senate his yes vote likely would have allowed the bill to pass, so one can deduce that him withdrawing his support killed the bill. Man hon specifically is deplorable in this case. He called for compromise, set a 1.7T asking price, negotiated in bad faith for months and when they hit the number he asked for he’s a No. I would genuinely like to see a floor vote and see if we get a surprise from one of the other 49 assumed No’s. When the growth forecast of an entire economy is being seriously cut assume it has a impact on the stock market. Many assumed the bill would pass. Financial relieve for families means more buying power ergo more spending. Also the fact that major investments in certain sectors like energy and construction won’t happen not only means prices of these stocks will drop (the bill was already priced in) but it also means less production next year and the years after. Less production is less consumption meaning your GDP will get a hit. Not many expected the bill not to pass and the effects of the bill was already priced in the stock market. The risk is high inflation will encourage the fed to raise rates faster. It’s also lost harvesting time, crazy bull run since October and end of the year is usually not that great for the market. Please stay in school kid. Thank you, fullonfacepalmist, for voting on MultiSourceNews_Bot. This bot wants to find the best and worst bots on Reddit. [You can view results here](https://botrank.pastimes.eu/). *** ^(Even if I don't reply to your comment, I'm still listening for votes. Check the webpage to see if your vote registered!) No, I'm pretty sure you're way off. Polling done by Data For Progress, which admittedly leans liberal, shows a strong majority of West Virginians support BBB with a 43% support among Republicans, 50% support among independents, and 91% among Democrats; for a total of 57% support among likely voters. Only 39% oppose the bill. This isn't a single issue poll either; there's a detailed breakdown of each component, as well as polling on a bunch of other related and ancillary issues. [https://www.filesforprogress.org/memos/build-back-better-wv.pdf](https://www.filesforprogress.org/memos/build-back-better-wv.pdf) What poll are you looking at that shows 3-1 West Virginians oppose this bill? I haven't seen anything like that, but I'm open to looking at other data points. Those numbers flip if they understood that their 250/month extra goes away too. If I were a conspiracy theorist, I would say Manchin is a GOP plant designed to make the Democratic party look incompetent. I think really he's just greedy and putting his corporate backers first. Would he have a chance of winning the primary? Id assume he'd have no chance against a Trumpian (is that a word?) candidate in a WV Republican primary. > If Americans supported the current administration's agenda they would be polling better than 40%. That is Donald Trump's territory. Really goes to show how disastrous of a presidency Donald Trump had because Biden has still [maintained a higher approval rating every step of the way](https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/?cid=rrpromo). Truly exemplifies how reckless, dangerous, and all around idiotic Trump was. I am glad I have clean conscious when it comes to him assuming office. *You* sound like a sheep! I've been around just a little longer than you are assuming I have. 🙄 Well, as a non-American, it's pretty obvious that you're country turned into a shithole country in late 2016 Gee, I wonder why? Communists? Really? Well Fuck you too , it's not 1956 anyone Deal with it New Zealand sounds like a great place from what I heard Might be the worst take I've seen this year. Coming in just before the bell, congrats! [deleted] Don't threaten me with a good time. I would argue that they have lost the senate I’m baffled about the amount of opinions in these comments I’m seeing that don’t understand this. And in this sub nonetheless. Well 1, the politicians don't make the call. The people with the money do. And 2, you get a big enough pay cheque you'll do anything. Especially when you're a politician. I admit that I don’t know the discussions going on so anything is possible I suppose ...That's what a sacrificial lamb is. The point is that all of the Dems are complicit, not just him. And those 50 senator representative a smaller population of people. Democracy at it's finest. Yep, herein lies the real issue, the partisan divide is what is really fckign up America, didn't Trump also once tout an infrastructure bill, you would think this is a no brained win-win for everyone. What I don't get is the Republicans are upset some social initiatives snuck into the BBB but isn't the bigger picture of an America with modern roads, rails, ports, airports and telecommunications worth it? It seems like any halfway decent political operator should be able to find 1 or 2 republican senators who can be convinced to vote for the bill through the inclusion of whatever pork spending/pet projects/special interest legislation/etc they want. It would be the rational thing to do, given that the swing vote holds all the negotiating leverage. If a Democrat such as Manchin will place his own interests above the party, surely at least 1 Republican would do the same. But they are voting safe. They're doing exactly what's expected of them and what they've already been bought and paid for. The reason this is a headline is that Manchin is killing his own party's bill for essentially no **good** reason. 50 other senators that belong to another party. You'd expect a democrat to toe the line but he did not, so the blame of this bill not passing rests on his shoulders. It’s also not one guy, it’s 51 (out of 100). People act like it’s 99-1, when in reality it’s just a simple 50% split they need to pass it. Being old definitely is a significant contributing factor. Gerontocracy is our countries biggest problem. Boomers are destroying America for their petty egos... The Senate is older and whiter than the nation. That is why people call it out - we are a diverse nation, but all the important decisions are made by people who generally have the exact same life experience. In short, our representative system fails to reflect our nation. Uh.. not sure if you're deliberately being dense or are playing some sort of weird reverse racism card. Virtually the entire history of the US' legislative history has come down to what old white guys want so a role reversal of the sort described would be *extremely* unprecedented and unusual. Shakespeare-Bot, thou hast been voted most annoying bot on Reddit. I am exhorting all mods to ban thee and thy useless rhetoric so that we shall not be blotted with thy presence any longer. Good bot. I think Easier said than done. A lot of that money will be in the hands of people with too much clout to tax much. Ok, can you explain how injecting 2 trillion into the economy won't impact inflation 🤣🤣. It is simple. Let’s not dump trillions into an economy that is drowning in price inflation. Get a grip on inflation and then run up the insane deficits, or have a government that only spends what it earns. Net benefit to the economy is a tricky statement. That boils down to raising GDP figures which can be buoyed by inflation. We dont need more development and capital spending we need to reduce inflation because inflation threatens the average citizen more than missing a GDP target. Salaries are not matching inflation and people will suffer immensely if inflation is not immediately tackled. That means we need to slow down money printing Blah blah blah is just more money printing, that ain't stabilizing anything. The two are mostly unrelated. There is inflation because of endless QE. The fed’s balance sheet was $900B at the end of ‘08. $4T by 2014. It is currently almost $9T. Because Reddit loves headlines and not details and oversimplifies things. As if a massive bill that's 2400 pages could be boiled down to simply good or bad. Because everyone on this fucking subreddit is a bunch of armchair geniuses that think they know more than financial experts and economists in our country. I asked a valid question and I get absolutely flamed. Two other commenters in response to op give good explanation. You're correct. Thanks for the clarification. I’ m sure it is the part that takes care of people instead of companies. For some reason Americans hate it when the taxes they pay benefits them instead of the military and corporations. Yes cheer lead all the politicians who don’t give an F about you. Get your clappy hands ready! Nobody in this sub knows how any of this works. Neither left or right. Everyones assumptions are just wrong. Nobody knows what they're talking about. Its like most of these people are fresh out of high school or something. Let's be real, the party as a whole didn't want this for whatever reason and Machin had the least to lose with his constituents That's how this game has always worked - two party system is fucked Interesting. I didn't know it was that tight since I don't pay attention to it. Yeah they are really just asking to be voted out in droves. To bad the other party is so keen on instituting Christian sharia law over the rest of us. We're fucked. If the Voting Rights act gets passed, 2022 will be a fairer race with more even districts and fair rules for all. It explicitly tackles all the chicanery the GOP pulls in every state and is written in such a way that it targets all of their tactics, makes Election Day a federal holiday, and mandates vote by mail be available to everyone + paper back ups for electronic work. As weird as it feels to say, Manchin might be the one to save America Democracy because he’s, surprisingly, very left on voting. He’s sponsoring the bill; it’s a trip. Even Opening Arguments couldn’t find anything that wasn’t super nitpickey to criticize with this one. It’s just brilliantly done. AND you need a simple majority. None of this 2/3 shit. I’ll take saving democracy over BBB right now and run with it. Yes because as people have said, it's been that way for 60 months. Frankly it's been that way since the Obama administration. It's not even worth worrying about proposed bills because 99% of them don't go through so I completely ignore them. More like 60+ months but yes Ending Roth conversions, and subsidizing EVs are the two I disagree with. I drive a model 3, but I don’t get why vehicles with so much demand that they have a 6 month+ lead time needs extra subsidies. On the Roth conversion, it’s frustrating they keep selling us on “tax the rich” and then make changes that effect the middle class far more than the rich. The rich don’t care about losing $6,000 in tax deferment, but the rest of us sure do. Is from the Democrats, that’s it. Fox News told him it was bad Seems like everyone who is asked this question never replies. Can’t argue that but the Dems have failed bigtime That’s because it’s an unpopular bill which will only create more inflation No, just based. Idiots like you run around in your Che t-shirts and want the rich to pay their “fair share.” And for the record, dipshit, I said leftists, not democrats. Guys like Manchin are heroes for standing up. I am wholly critical of Bush. Dubai ports, Patriot Act, No Child Left Ahead. So screw off moron. The deficit was decreasing pre-pandemic despite the tax cuts. Not to mention the amount of ""time"" is irrelevant as a lot of damage can be done in a short amount of time. [removed] [removed] Every time I hear the phrase ""soft people bring hard times"" I think of just how much Boomers prove that saying. It's just incredible to me how a single generation could hamstring every other generation after it, and still somehow think they are the victims. Boomers= The Locust Generation Holy fuck you dont know how the economy works. I had my first at 36 and it’s amazing. Never too late! Had my first @30 and my second @57 absolutely never to late. Having children is what nature intended for us. It’s a connection that is irreplaceable. Having adult children is like having best friends that really love you. Fuck it just have them, you'll make it work. brigaded I hope they enjoy the bags of money that they'll be able to do nothing with. With fewer people, there will be less people available to work *service* positions. Also, with fewer people, there might also be less food service/retail/hospitality options for the wealthy to visit. God damn Ferengis. Since Nixon. Look into in. Reagan was the poison. Makes sense. The rich have their private schools and the religious want to send their kids to their respective religion's schools. In either case, it's about indoctrination into being those types of people. Oh no! I hope Manchin doesn’t just happen to fall down some stairs in the White House, there are so many in there.. I focused on this one comment from this one congressperson's reason on why they voted no. That comment was about the the child tax credit. The child tax credit that is designed to help support parents which I assume in terms of running a country, is to support the population. I then connected that to a list of other things working against parents or couples deciding if having kids will cripple them or not. Really more of a tangential conversation. I can't support violence when both sides flip it on the other to show how fanatical they are. I doubt I'm getting social security when...if I retire. Take the money you saved on not having kids. Put it in your retirement savings. Bam. That stress is sorted. >It’s nihilism and narcissism and frankly won’t get you anywhere. I hope your mental state improves. I cannot engage on any argument when the premise is your assumption of my mental state. Being adversarial doesn't encourage me to have kids. I choose to not subject myself to the hardship you are describing. I respect that you had a goal and made it happen. Having kids is not a mandatory life goal for me. It's something that would be nice but it's not something I am willing to endure hardship for. What just happened here? Assumptions of my disposition in addition to being ignorant of housing and public schools? Prove I am depressed. To counter your claim that I am depressed, I say that you need me to be depressed to validate your decision to have children. Show me where housing costs are fine and public schools are properly funded. 1. I contribute as little money as possible to the real estate market as I can. Thus, I only rent a studio. 2. I don't engage in political debates. Nothing I or them can say will factor in so why bother. 3. With legislature concerning public schools, I read the voters guides and attempt to inform myself. Just because it looks like it benefits schools, does not mean that it is a net positive. 4. I avoided college and went straight into technical certifications. 5. I volunteer in my city to maintain parks and pick up trash walking to and from work. We have a grid street pattern so I'm able to take different routes. I don't carry sharps containers though. 6. As mentioned, I don't feel like my offspring would be treated well by this world so I don't have kids. *This* is what I do. Thanks for asking. I am one of the few people who live by their ethics and are willing to endure the hardships it presents. How about yourself? Heyo, I answered your question about what I'm doing instead of just griping and you just bailed. Gaslighting is a terrible practice. You're right. I didn't have this. I just see the state of classrooms and hear about teachers salaries. Where is the money going then? No we have a lack of government transparency, accountability and bureaucratic obstacles that put the beaches of Normandy to fucking shame. Has anyone ever dealt with the SBA? It's absolutely absurd its allowed to even be in charge of 10 dollars, let alone a trillion. Also, why is it that even though there was this pandemic, and everyone is hurting, all this assistance comes out and then everyone all a sudden has a new truck, theyre ConStantly on vacation, remodeling there homes, buying second homes. Restaurants more busy than I've ever seen them, but many businesses never reopened. I feel like there will be a fall out from all these eidl loans, and ppp loans. And when they start asking how you bought your house and car and takin pictures of yo shit? Better get them 12 white folks... Hey there tucsonra79! If you agree with someone else's comment, please leave an **upvote** instead of commenting **""This""**! By upvoting instead, the original comment will be pushed to the top and be more visible to others, which is even better! Thanks! :) *** ^(I am a bot! Visit) [^(r/InfinityBots)](https://reddit.com/r/InfinityBots) ^(to send your feedback! More info:) [^(Reddiquette)](https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439#wiki_in_regard_to_comments) Manchin would still say no. That man is a paid corporate representative, he only represents money, not people. The impact to business is picking up more than expected. Businesses are shutting down in NY and other areas. Its like a Rorschach test. We all see a different a cause based on our cult of origin. Kind of like religion. I try not to take it seriously because obviously we are all so clueless and full of shit we don't know which way is up. You don’t say Ok you could say that about literally everyone that voted no. If that one person just voted yes the bill would've passed. Manchin is the scapegoat for this broken political system Within the context of the stock market, which was the jest from the first comment I doubt investors calculated the BBB plan for a few reasons. Firstly that investments, aside from the child tax credit and perhaps the salt tax deduction are longer term benefits/ investments where you could get 20 economists together and not get the same answer as far as economic growth and expected increase in GDP or whatever economic measurement that floats your boat. I would argue investors and stock futures to be heavily dictated by the fed interest rate for a few reasons. Us companies right now are addicted to cheap money. If the feds interest rate climbs, it could cause companies to have to pay more immediately due to increased interest payments on current debt, and make it harder for at the same time to justify taking on new debt. You can argue pros and cons of debt spending, but the result will likely be a reduction in stock prices, especially if higher interest rates are needed, which make other investments, such as bonds more attractive than stock. I think that hit me as well Thanks for the youth compliment. Lol Long out of school with a higher education. Smart enough to know the dem’s socialist agenda is garbage This poll by MRE research shows 61% of West Virginians oppose passage of BBB, though 77% supported bipartisan infrastructure plan. Admittedly not quite 3-1 but still a large margin. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/joe-manchin-buoyed-polls-raises-new-concerns-about-build-back-better-act-1650003%3famp=1 Since it appears polling on bills can lead to much different outcomes, perhaps zooming out to the politicians’ Individual approval levels in WV would be wise. Manchin approval rating in his state sits at 61% for strongly or somewhat approve. That number is is only 33% for Biden. Strong disapproval is at 54% for Biden 19% for manchin. If you were manchin would you throw in with Biden on this after seeing these numbers? Edit: I did manage to find an article citing that poll showing almost 75% of west Virginians oppose BBB https://wvmetronews.com/2021/11/15/wv-voters-slam-biden-approve-of-justice-manchin-in-latest-mbe-research-poll/ There it is ladies and gentleman. The classic argument that gets rolled out whenever a spending bill or policy is in discussion, the timeless “stupid red staters are too dumb to know what’s good for them”. Voters are smart enough to figure out what policies they support A look at WV voting trends would provide a simpler non conspiracy theory explanation assuming an incumbent politician wants to win re election. Happy Cake Day jason_abacabb! Stop searching the world for treasure, the real treasure is in yourself. I think he easily has a chance in Republican WV primary. Incumbent senator who saw the light and stonewalled Biden and Democrats’ agenda would be a great campaign, in my opinion. A proven track record of stymieing Democrats is hard to beat. Shelly capito - 2020 WV senate election was 547k Republicans and 210k Democrats, with Democrats losing every single county. Manchin - 2018 WV Senate election was 291k Democrat vs 271k Republican (non presidential year). Manchin - 2012 WV senate election was 400k Democrat vs 241k Republican (presidential year). Manchin is up for re-election in 2024, another presidential election year, so turnout will be high. 2012 presidential election results in WV were 417k Republican, 238k Democrat. 2016 presidential election results in WV were 490k Republican, 189k Democrat. 2020 presidential election results in WV were 545k Republican, 236k Democrat. There is an indisputable trend of WV voting more Republican over the past 10 years, and I predict will only get more Republican. Manchin got lucky 2018 was a non presidential election year, otherwise he would have been out then. He is certainly not winning as a Democrat in 2024. But, being slightly better than the worst polling president in history is not exactly a high bar to clear. And to be honest Biden was absolutely given the benefit of the doubt. He had an approval rating just shy of 60% he had loads of good will and was given the benefit of the doubt given Trump's departure. To me falling from the upper 50's to 40% shows larger dissatisfaction with your policy than a drop from 44% to 38%. Many people did not like trump from the day he was elected, he did not do anything to improve his appeal but he also did not lose much support over his 4 years. He was voted in with a 45% approval rating and was voted out with a 44% approval rating. You’re sheep lol. Following a socialist agenda. Must have seen a lot of great takes then Both. At least West Virginia isn’t run by authoritarian socialists. I’ll take West Virginia over vaccine passports and double digit state income taxes any day. Economic/financial literacy has gone down the drain unfortunately. The worst part is that the people that know the least think they know the most. [deleted] What's your point? Senators represent states as a whole and is pretty important part of the entire system being fair and not overran by a majority rule of high population states like California, Texas, and New York etc. The Senators exist to give power to the minority and the less populated states as a whole so they still have a say in the policies that will affect them. I think it's an absolute essential part of Democracy and I'm glad the writers of the Constitution had the forethought to consider this and ensure more equal representation. [deleted] BuT tHeIr VoIcEs NeEd To be HeArD oh wait that doesn’t apply to the republic, I forgot Democracy based on widespread public opinion is a recipe for disaster. If all humans were independent rational actors, it would be a great idea. A few moments on planet earth very clearly demonstrates that all humans are not independent rational actors. There is a [relevant study](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments) on conformity. Basically 75% of people will second guess themselves and “go with the crowd” even when the answer is mind numbingly obvious. So given that people place a premium on conformity and social acceptance over what’s objectively correct, it is obviously a bad idea for total number of people to be the only deciding factor. All you’d need to do is create high population zones, buy the news//media//etc, and boom you win everything. These concepts aren’t new either. The Founding Fathers knew all of this shit (maybe less rigorously, but it is obvious to anyone who’s been in a classroom how conformity (even when obviously wrong) works.). >bigger picture of an America with modern roads, rails, ports, airports and telecommunications worth it? Aren't those included in the infrastructure bill that already passed? This BBB bill doesn't deal with physical infrastructure anymore but social programs, medicare, housing, childcare, affordable act credits, clean energy, climate change provisions etc. We already passed an infrastructure bill. This isn’t a traditional infrastructure bill to build roads and airports and such. That’s what Trump wanted (and Biden passed a couple months ago). It's the problem of the 2 party system we have. At one point in history climate change was Republican cause initiated by Nixon and now its switched and you could find that for any policy that this has happened too. Take Russia as a more recent example before 2016 the Republicans were the ones hating Russia now that's changed to Democrats primarily while in the background both parties politicians are Esclated with the russia government militarily. Right now the biggest fear Republicans have is having to compete with someone from their own party that is even more Trumpier than them who can run ads that so and so voted with the Dems and is not a true Republican, etc, etc. Part of the issue here is that Dems aren't a united group either. There is a bunch of stuff shoved in to appease various interest groups on the Democrats side. For example, raising the salt cap is going to cost hundreds of billions and has nothing to do with infrastructure, but coastal wealthy Democrats are trying to squeeze it into the bill. With all those different groups trying to get their own stuff in, its going to be hard to find room for Republican interests too. Right now, any Republican who works with the Dems on passing one of Biden’s biggest initiatives can count on a very well-supported primary challenger from the right. The GOP doesn’t tolerate party disloyalty to nearly the degree Democrats do. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, West Virginia’s voting trends indicate that he would lose if he ran for re election as a Democrat. Manchin has a very good reason to vote in a way that makes Republican voters happy. I expect everyone to act in their own interest. Sometimes that means having an official label of Democrat while you act like a Republican, possibly to gear up to switch to Republican. If 1 of those 50 other Senators that belong to another party was at risk of losing their next election to a Democrat and, I might expect them to vote for a Democrat bill too. It is not rare to see people switch political parties. See Trump. People really seem to be struggling with this concept And the millions of people who voted to put them in power. And the President whose signature bill this is is older and Whiter than the Senate. Imagine thinking that people who look different than me can’t think like me. All browns think alike? It's come down to rich people. Period. You could also talk about this in terms of the 9 Republican non-white-men who are voting against this. But no, you're make it about one particular ""old white guy"". You're the one who is bringing age and race into this for no good reason. You make me laugh, thank you! Your impression of someone so hypocritical that they can't realize they're being racist by bringing up race to denigrate and judge someone and then daring to accuse someone else of using a ""victim card"" is perfect! Take a bow sir, take a bow! I'd recommend using a /s because unfortunately some people won't get the satire you're clearly writing because no one could actually think using this argument is actually logically sound! Yeah, definitely need to return to the 75% plus highest tax brackets of the 50’s and 60’s, plus remove all the loopholes. Isn't it over 10 years? $200billion a year doesn't sound like a lot. Plus inflation seems to be fuelled predominately by supply chain constraints at the moment. QE has hardly budged inflation in the last 20 years anywhere it's been tried, I don't think this bill is going to be the one to do it. The Chief Economist at Goldman Sachs says inflation concerns from build back better are minimal…about 0.5%. The biggest cause of inflation right now is from early pandemic stimulus and strained supply chains. https://www.wsj.com/articles/manchin-rejected-biden-bill-over-inflation-debt-concerns-how-founded-are-those-worries-11639958265 Except the inflation we're seeing is tied to supply chain issues... not government spending bills. The M2 money supply has increased, but the velocity of money has crashed. You need both to devalue the dollar in that way. Goldman Sachs seems to disagree. Did you read the article? Except most provisions of the bill were fully funded. Try again. ""I mean when hunger levels are at an all time high, should we really be spending money at the grocery store? Wouldn't that money be better spent on food?"" The economy is a lot more complicated, but this is basically what you just asked. No it’s the parts that give money to bureaucrats instead of actual people. We would be better off not collecting income tax on the bottom 90% for 5 years. It's a massive bill with many different parts. When you frame it as ""you're just against taking care of people"", you push people into a corner with guilt. Are there good parts of the bill? Of course. The biggest parts of the bill might be favored, but the devil is in the details and it's ok to be against those. You're simplifying a super complex bill and that's just unfair when you're trying to simply have a debate. >Its like most of these people are fresh out of high school or something. On reddit? Unpossible. Agree that he is biting the bullet for the rest of the moderate D’s. I think he will gain the most from saying no and the others let him. I think a 2 party system can work, if we had real full grown adults who didn’t care about power in the chambers. But we don’t. No worries! Gotta learn somewhere. Glad I could inform! Yeah, you have to try really hard to lose to modern republicans. Democrats are experts at it. Obviously democracy is important, but if all they're saving it for is more neo-liberal garbage, I don't see that as being all that useful. Besides which this is always their excuse. ""The other guys are so much worse"". Well, that may be true, but it's not good enough. As far as I can see, we're on the road to total chaos and collapse even if democrats start winning more seats. True but Dems only recently got their ""majority"" that gave them any hope of passing legislation at all Hey thanks for your response! I agree with you on the Roth conversion rules, but I still think we need some provisions for people like Peter thiel that abuse the system to avoid paying taxes on billions in founder equity. As for EV subsidies, do you support the coal and petroleum subsidies? Because in my view if we are subsidizing dirty energy, than we should subsidize Eve and clean power more, or just get rid of the subsidies all together and let market forces put oil and coal out of vogue Fox News never tells them why they shouldn’t support the bill, just democrats bad. For a party that loves to call people that follow mask mandates sheep, there really isn’t a whole lot of critical thinking going on. Still Not as bad as the fascists, and yes, that’s your choice You’re arguing with a cartoon character in your head. I don't think you know how economics work? It seems like Republicans are purposely creating chaos so we can put all the blame on Biden. I mean don't any of you remember Mitch telling the country that they will make everything worse for democrats? Its all political and you're falling for it. Im not aligned to one party, but clearly you are lol. But ya you clearly missed the Trump bailouts if you're willing to crucify the next guy for doing the same thing. Or you're an idiot. Most boomers are liberal. Stop the bullshit ageism. 🖕🏼 Explain Oh definitely not outside of the realm of possibility. Just need to get enough $$ for a wedding and a house lol. Same, and we had two! I’m certainly nervous about… nearly every future outlook, but I wouldn’t change anything :) You seem like a real piece of work Well reality isn't always pleasant. Israel is the only country I can think of with high educational attainment that also has birthrates above replacement level. Rule of Acquisition #10: Greed is eternal. I for one, would love robots to serve my meals, walk my dogs and clean my house. Why would you give a monetary incentive to produce children? Do you know what the end result of this is? The world we live in. Children born raised and treated as if they're only worth as much as the government gives their mother, if she keeps it together long enough to hold on to the kids. I repair section 8 housing and it's not uncommon to see a scene of countless children around the house, on a school day with people coming and going. House stinks with cigarette, weed and sometimes much more caustic smells , kids rooms often shared with adults that in no way fit the guidelines of what's allowable in section 8. Blatant drug dealing and maxing out governmental assistance is all that's on The lesson plan for these kids. And skin color doesn't matter, they all do it. I still get to know them and they love to see me bc they know if I'm there, the AC or the Washing machine or the hot water or whatever is definitely getting fixed. And there's usually one that want to know how I fix it. And I'm always sure to teach him. The “both sides” nonsense shows how hoodwinked a lot of Americans are by the GOP. Ask any normal first-world country and Dems would be their version of conservatives, while the GOP would be comparable to a fringe fascist party that most citizens are smart enough not to vote for. Vaccines are bad. The election was stolen. The “freedom” of gun deregulation trumps safety. Tax cuts for the rich w/ no tax credits to help children. bOTh SiDeS! America will earn its special place in hell. Probably in our lifetime. Money won’t mean that much come the climate wars. /s Same boat though, we had a small Roth IRA with Edward Jones for my wife to try and put some money into since she didn’t have a 401k at work, we’d have “status calls” every six months or so with the advisor. She’d ask how much we were making, assets, debt, bullshit to determine our “net worth” and was always disappointed when we said not much progress (as if we’re trying to fail, you know?) but we’re trying. During the calls, she’d crunch these laughable numbers based on us retiring at 70 and how the money was forecast to look when we hit 95 if we were able to put more into savings. I brushed it off for a bit, but one call I finally got fed up and spit out, *“What seriously makes you think either of us will live that long?”* She had no answer and spouted some word-salad about compound interest and continuing to try and save. And that’s the story of how we left Edward Jones. Edit: The downvotes are kind of weird, would love for someone to explain what about my opinion of Edward Jones is so upsetting? Apparently people *really* like Ed Jones? Better not save cash, reinvest that shit This is not correct. You can. You just choose not to, which isn’t a surprise. Similar to your choice to not have a child. Once again, these are methods by which you abdicate responsibility and avoid any meaningful reflection. Im with you 100%. I get it. I didnt really make a good point. If you want something, dont roll over and quit. Kids or no kids. It seems everyone now a days blames it all on something and just gives up. You will have a great life with or without kids. You will also have more spending money. Definitely DO not have KIDS for the novelty of it. That's probably how we got here In the first place. Fucking baby boomers I’m in the NYC metro area and bought a 2100 sq ft house for $425k two years ago. Schools in North Jersey are the best in the nation and my town is considered to have good schools. If you are looking for a random place I think is a great value, look at Carmel Indiana. It’s a rich area and has top notch public schools. You can get a 2000 sq ft new construction house for $400k with cheap taxes. You are probably thinking “Indiana sucks”, but this is a short distance from Indianapolis and has a ton of job opportunities in the area. So what you just step over the needles you see on the ground? Heyo, you just outlined your internet gripe. Run for local office and start change. Do something. I’m running for City board next year. Sure I’ll lose, but i’ll be trying to makes things better for people. Don’t bail on us. Do something instead of bitching and fishing for worthless internet points. [deleted] I will just put it out there, it is very much public information how school spend their money. You can look it up for any school district out there. Spoiler alert, they spend just about all the money they receive. Looking at my alma mater, about 57% into personal services, about 31% into retirement/benefits, about 13% into purchased services( this is externally provided education stuff I reckon), about 2% on supplies and materials, and balance on miscellaneous expenses. All on a 58 million dollar budget. This comes out to be around 14800 per student. I went to a suburban/rural school with an “excellent” rating whatever that means. Shitting major city school, which by all accounts is horrible except for maybe magnet school, per student funding is 15800 per student. Poorer districts usually get access to state money/grants that aren’t available else where. I know they pay more for people to work at the urban school, yet teacher take the pay cut to work in the suburbs. Those teachers actually get paid pretty well especially on the backend. Their starting salary, greater than 35k, is actually more than the median income in the USA. They start at a number greatly than half of working Americans. They have some of the benefits out there notably their retirement pension which is the back end compensation, usually upwards of 80% of their final salary of 80k-90k. Not and for working 9 months of the year. Something’s money can’t fix and that would be the current education system. You could double the amount of money we spend per student and I doubt that it would have a large impact. This is what the senate exists to do. Pass republican agenda and stop all agenda that is even remotely favored by democrats. And install super conservative nutjobs to lifetime judicial appointments. That's it. If the Republicans have control its a fres for all for them to enrich themselves and their billionaire cronies while poor people vote for them every time for... Reasons? Anything remotely good for regular Americans? Commie socialists! And they don't even have to hold a vote. They just sit around at dinner and tell each other different versions of haha, no. I would fully be in favor of a requirement for every bill to come to a floor vote if it had support from at least 20 senators, so at least they would have to make it official instead of this skulking around. Machin got to be the sacrificial lamb. He was promised the Republicans wouldn't run a shill candidate against him that would surely cost him his re-election. I hate the senate Well first of all they haven't voted on it yet. Secondly, you can't say that about literally anyone because it's a bill being proposed by a democratic president. You would expect (most of the time but not all) that democrats would rally behind it. You would also expect that all republicans would vote no. For a democrat to withdraw support is shocking. But I agree that the system is broken. Could you please cite the accepted definition of socialism for us and how exactly the agenda is socialism Show me where in Biden’s agenda there’s any mention of the workers owning the means of production. Maybe I’m blind, but is there a website for MBE research? I clicked on their report and wasn’t seeing the methodology. Maybe I overlooked it. Did I? (Edited for spelling errors) I think it will be interesting to see how Manchin's approval numbers may change (if at all) depending on what happens next with the bill after what he just did. Especially if the bill is put up to a vote and he votes no. Fucking eh. But.... but.... you bay like a sheep? So a sheep calling me a sheep? Yall are super confusing.... mmkay? Haha! [deleted] [deleted] Yes I'm very happy we still have a vestigial legislative body that only existed to appease slave owners. Ideal way to structure a government in the 21st Century. I hear this justification of avoiding “majority rule” all the time. I have never heard an explanation for why minority rule, which is the actual circumstance, is preferable. And it isn’t “more equal representation.” What we are seeing is a literal subversion of that. The minority subset is given outsized representation. It discriminates against a neutered majority. This result is why the greatest wisdom and forethought of the founders was the amendment process. Things are broken right now, and they need to be fixed. Partially true. However, the house was supposed to fully represent everyone. But the numbers were capped due to space issues, thus the masses have list representation. And, thanks to gerrymandering, senators no longer truly represent rural states. All this does is empower minority rule. Which is exactly what's happening now. It’s an outdated American ideology that shouldn’t apply today. Bet the founders would flip their shit at US “democracy” today This is a bullshit argument because it implies California and Texas are 100% partisan. There are conservative reps from California and liberal reps from Texas. Its not an all or nothing issue like you make it out to be. Those bigger states have more power because THEY HAVE MORE PEOPLE. How is giving artificial power to smaller populations deemed fair? And large cities need to be their own states, honestly. Beep. Boop. I'm a robot. Here's a copy of ###[The Republic](https://snewd.com/ebooks/the-republic/) Was I a good bot? | [info](https://www.reddit.com/user/Reddit-Book-Bot/) | [More Books](https://old.reddit.com/user/Reddit-Book-Bot/comments/i15x1d/full_list_of_books_and_commands/) **[Asch conformity experiments](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments)** >In psychology, the Asch conformity experiments or the Asch paradigm were a series of studies directed by Solomon Asch studying if and how individuals yielded to or defied a majority group and the effect of such influences on beliefs and opinions. Developed in the 1950s, the methodology remains in use by many researchers. Uses include the study of conformity effects of task importance, age, sex, and culture. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/finance/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5) Desktop version of /u/HiIAmFromTheInternet's link: --- ^([)[^(opt out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiMobileLinkBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^(]) ^(Beep Boop. Downvote to delete) Bingo. BBB is a laundry list of stuff that Democrats have been trying to pass and thought they’d be able to lump them all together and ram it through under the guise of “because Covid”. And when Trump wanted it, people hated the idea. Now it’s a 180 between both parties. Politicians will politic no matter what the issue. I'll admit I'm not super into behind the scenes politics, but both Pennsylvania and Wisconsin voted for Biden and both have republican senators up fro reelection in 2022. Are they really that vulnerable to a right wing challengers even in those middle of the road states? Democrats clearly have at least 2 or 3 significant factions within the party at the national level in a coalition loosely held together by opposing Trump. I'm just wondering why the republican party seems to be more effective at keeping all the senators voting on a straight party line when they also are composed of a few different factions. If they all acted in their own interest, we'd never get anything done. Yes, that is also a problem Is that what I said? We're meant to have a representative democracy. People with the same skin color, gender, or age group do have shared experiences that influence their decision making. Those experiences give them a different perspective than white men from the Boomer generation that currently makes up the vast majority of the Senate. Edit: changed ""color"" to ""influence"" for clarity given the topic. puppet masters gonna puppet Who are overwhelmingly old white guys. So you're both right. They are republicans. That's a terrorist organization... Are the other non white men voting against the bill democrats? The inflation we are seeing is definitely sticky though, regardless of source. We need to curb it before we have inflated another 4-6% ahead of schedule against the average joe's salary increases. You know you’re on Reddit right? Goldman does not disagree. Goldman in the article states the bill will accelerate gdp growth by 0.5%. What the commenter you roasted is saying is that printing more money to do this is not a good idea in an already dangerously high inflation environment. Printing money we don't have spiking cash in circulation increases inflation further. For the average American inflation is far more important than arbitrarily making stock markets go higher. Thats because the lower on the economic ladder you are the more susceptible to inflation you are and the less you are helped by GDP increases because you own less or no stocks. This entire R finance thread is despicable. Very little economics reading just parroting partisan talking points. Well of course they did, bet they have a lot to gain from the buh buh buh plan. Meanwhile coof coof we're just gonna have to live with it after ALL THAT TALK! Dude...you're a victim of propaganda. The accounting tricks used to make that statement even remotely true are outrageous. Dig deeper and you'll see its far from funded. !remind bot remind in one year. Regardless of your opinion on Manchin, he asks a valid question too. The government spending trillions of dollars that our kids and grandkids will inevitably have to pay back doesn't exactly do anything to combat the shrinking value of the dollar. Inflation over the past two years has *in part* been influenced by the stimulus bills our government has passed. Of course inflation is caused and measured by a multitude of factors but is still influenced by the spending of our government as well. Also your argument isn't exactly correct. It would instead be correct to argue that this spending bill is much like ""asking your credit card company to raise your credit limit so you can spend frivolously instead of wondering why your savings account is decreasing"" Of course we would but then Elon Musk would have to pay taxes and companies would have to pay taxes. The problem is Americans are right. Compared to Europe their taxes don’t benefit them. I am all ears? What exact devil is in the details? What do you oppose? Maybe, maybe not. But if things go the democrats way and they don’t do anything with the year and a half before campaign season starts we vote them out. It’s simple as that. Can’t do that when we have a theocratic state with Donny as our Ruler because we won’t be able to vote anyways I tend to lean against non-green energy subsidies, but they’re very complex to take a blanket stance on, especially since I benefit from them. The coal and gas that my local power plants burn provide my electric car with its charge at a subsidized rate, and definitely played a part into my EV adoption. Not my choice! People need to get back to work. Thats not fascism. What does that even mean? [removed] [removed] Their affiliation has nothing to do with the fact that they have demonstratively, as a generation, left the following generations poorer and worse off. Individual boomers may be good people, but Boomers as a generation had it incredibly well, and didn't have to struggle in the same way their children and grandchildren do. Then they, and you, cry ageism if you even attempt to bring up all the benefits and advantages they enjoy, and the fact that they did not leave those same benefits for their children. It's not ageism if it's true. And its been mathmatically proven. They're socially Liberal. Well except when it comes to marijuana. Economically, they're tremendously Conservative. Pro tip - don’t spend a ton of money on a wedding. Hell, don’t spend any if your family can deal with it. Go elope, have a barbecue with your friends and family, calm down the MIL and use the money saved to go buy your ass a house. There is absolutely no reason at all, ever, to drop $20k+ on a fucking wedding. Way I see it, the earth has been ending for over 2000 years. There will always be something to be paranoid about Lol neat. Random internet rage. Adding it to my collection. Is that because of the ultra Orthodox having enough kids for the rest of the country? brigaded There is profit to be had. My next question would be about the fair treatment of factory workers. You could just own *less*. Would be less to maintain. People who own more than they can effectively care for have always confused me. It's literally that concept of ""Do you own your things or do your things own you?"". That might sound trite or cliche but the concept holds. I watch people who are primarily concerned with more and how to get it. I agree that the party system is horrid. When I say I cannot, I am referencing my own set of personal guidelines. So I will rephrase. I will not. You can give me your opinion on my decisions all you like. I will not be baited by you. Thanks. I really didn't appreciate ""With your mindset though, dont bring a kid into this world. Just roll over."" I admit. That tilted me. face palm. Have's tell the have-not's everything is fine. You asked what I was doing, I directly answered. Your comment was if I was bitching or doing something, not if I'm running for office. That's stupid logic. You could directly do good by volunteering. By running with the expectation of failure, you're just pretending to do something. You might be making things worse if you win, too. Imagine winning with no idea how to do the job. Whatever, why did I bother replying. I'm not going to verify what I said and don't care if you do. LOL @ ""Life is hard, bud"". Pathetic attempts at gaslighting. The difference between me and you? I strive to be cognizant of how my participation or lack thereof impacts other people. I recognize that living in a first world country, many of the benefits in my daily life are there due to unfair practices. Talking to me about hardships. What a joke. You consider $35k a year to be pretty good? I consider it hardly liveable Sen Joe Manchin is masquerading as a democrat but he is really a republican. This is one of the core issues within US politics. You’re not supposed to vote or stand behind a bill just because you’re part of that party or “team”. You should stand behind something you believe benefits the country as a whole with your reasoning, not because it benefits “your team”. Most of the issues is because of this team mentality, they’d rather see the other party lose and suffer than actually help boost one another. Social programs aka free hand outs!! Get a job, there are plenty available! The debasement of the currency for social programs is not good long term. Time for people to go back to work and stop giving them hand outs. There are help wanted signs everywhere yet there is a work shortage. Don’t blame covid at this point, the hand outs have people sitting out. Not too mention Biden ran on saving the planet and even with both houses controlled by Dems, they are more focused on social programs. If we don’t have clean water and clean air, the social programs mean zero!! Climate change should have been a far greater priority than social programs which bring me back to the socialist agenda. Idk I just linked the article that cited the poll Washington is cool Yes, believe it or not printing money does in fact cause inflation. The marginal utility of each dollar decreases as more dollars are created. Inflation is the increase in money supply although I am sure you have bought into the idea that inflation is when prices go up. Can you tell me how much of all total us dollars have been printed in the last two years? Yes shipping bottlenecks and such have contributed to higher prices but we havent reached a 6.8% YoY inflation rate just because of shipping bottlenecks and chip shortages. And if you actually believe that the CPI accurately reflects the true level of inflation then youre delusional, if we measure CPI using the same methodology from 1990 then we would have an inflation rate of over 10% and and inflation rate of almost 15% using methodology from 1980. Also I will share with you [this](https://youtu.be/PTUY16CkS-k) hilariously simple video about QE that I am sure even you can comprehend. Like I said before, those that know the least think they know the most. Uh the senate was created to appease small population states, not slave owners. It will probably not get fixed without violence because the minority is not going to want to give up their power. North Dakota has 750,000 people, South Dakota has 750,000 people, and West Virginia has 1.8 million people. Grand total of 3.3 million people but my hometown in California had a bigger population than those 3 states combined. Those three states have 6 senators and my state of California has 40 million people but we share 2 senators. Those are some quick examples but republican senators represent less than 30% of the population. The system is fucking broken. 245 years ago when this government was established there wasn't a strong federal government and every state was like a mini country. Fast forward to now and any state you are born in you tell the world you're ""American"". People vote, not land and we certainly should not have arbitrary lines written on a map 250 years ago dictate policy today in a democracy. It's not preferable or the actual circumstance. This is why the legislative branch is made up of both the House of Representatives AND the Senate. It's an attempt to reach a balance between majority and minority rule. Great way to look at this issue that I'll be picking up for later! Everyone always jumps to thinking NY and CA would just run the country on their ""liberalness"" and destroy the ""real America"" Feel free to implement whatever you want in your state. 💀 Wait til you figure out that the US isn’t a democracy lol It's not really minority rule because the minority can only vote down legislation. A bill still needs to pass the House to get passed. > This result is why the greatest wisdom and forethought of the founders was the amendment process. Which requires a 2/3's majority vote in both houses and ratification by 3/4's of states. Is this an example of ""minority rule"" too? How? The Senate gives equal representation to all the states. The House gives unequal representation to the States - they balance each other out. Good to know Equal Representation under the Constitution is an ""Outdated American Ideology"" what's next we should only have the Freedom of Speech as long as it doesn't harm someone's feelings? Are you really trying to argue semantics about California being a Democrat state, Texas being a Republican state and New York being a Democrat state? The point isn't even WHAT party is or isn't in control the point is that high population states COULD band together and enforce their will on the country and other states and defeats the entire purpose of representational democracy for the other states. 10 states have enough Representatives that they could literally force whatever they want on the other 40 states and there is nothing the other states could do if not for the Senate. If that's the type of representation you want, that's fine, but I hope you understand that it's absolutely tyrannically and is the complete antithesis of a government for the people. But you can keep advocating how unfair the Senate if you want but the equal representation it provides to the States is essential to democracy. Yes, Republicans (older, whiter) vote more consistently and frequently. Democrats (younger, less white) do not vote as consistently or frequently, especially in non presidential election years. Last I read, many republicans are single issue voters. As long as those issues aren’t mutually exclusive, it’s relatively easy to get the voters to vote together by supporting the various single issues. Democrats are more fractured and while some are single issue voters, their issues are mutually exclusive. How many democrats literally want a socialist government vs how many want a capitalistic society but they also think immigrants should be treated better? You don’t include the socialistic policies and the socialists stay home and don’t show up to vote. You do include them and the pro immigrants vote republican as it’s the lesser evil. As long as a republican candidate is pro-2nd amendment, tough on crime, and pro business, they are going to get almost all of the republican votes in their area. Ok racist. Because, with rich people, the men demonstrate social status by holding prestigious jobs. The women demonstrate social status by not having a job You can curb inflation by raising interest rates. With rates at zero and inflation still well within single digits it's not even that scary of a task. Decreasing investment in the people of the country is absolutely not the way to try to do it. People complain all the time about labor shortages... yet don't realize that there's a huge number of women not working because childcare is too expensive, to give an example. There’s nothing wrong with having a different opinion. How exactly does this bill print more money? I understand that further accelerating inflation isn't desirable right now but I fail to see why this bill is a concern in that regard. The proposal lays out its expected sources for the funding. Concerns of inflation stated in the article seem tangential. Edit: just in case this is coming off as over combative, I really do actually want to know if I'm misunderstanding something here I'm aware that the child tax credit was only funded for a year. However, the program was only authorized for a year. So that doesn't mean it was being borrowed for. There's lots of propaganda in this thread, but it's not from me. Isn't Musk going to pay more taxes than anyone is US history this year? 1) Spending overall. Some people believe in more government spending, some people believe in less. This is just different philosophies and there's arguments on both sides that it's not sound to say one side is wrong. Different estimates will get you different results, but one of the estimates by the CBO, which assumes certain policies are not sunsetted, does show that it could likely increase the deficit. 2) Inflationary pressures. We're already in a high inflation environment. The consensus amongst economists is that this won't lead to much inflation. However, that is in the medium to long term. There are economists that say that we could see short term inflationary pressures. At the same time, economists aren't exactly known for being accurate. 3) The bundled nature of it. This is a bill that covers everything from climate, to social safety nets, to healthcare. This is corporate governance 101 - don't bundle unrelated proposals. That prevents people from making decisions issue-by-issue. And it allows some people to frame it as a ""good bill"" by simply ignoring the disagreeable parts. 4) Random provisions that give preferential treatments to unions over non-unions. Personally am not a fan of union, and we can agree to disagree on that point. But to give added tax credits to union created cars and non-union created cars seems silly. Especially when climate is such a big priority for this administration and Tesla, a non-union company, has done arguably the most on EV adoption. And yet, the tax credits indirectly penalize Tesla for not having a union. 5) SALT deductions. The state and local tax deduction cap is increased from $10,000 to $80,000, which is a net benefit for high income individuals and provides a light incentive for high tax states to continue with their high taxation. Sure, but then we vote them out, and just keep playing musical chairs with two parties who refuse to address reality. Either way, our civilization ain't going to make it. We can't keep doing the same thing and expecting different results. Lmao woosh. The fact that you're a Democrat is irrelevant, I don't know why you insist on letting everyone know. Funny you say that because I actually took a class on gender studies along with accounting and economics. Its an interesting class, you should try it out. If you really believe all college kids are ""brain dead lazy"" then I know you didn't go to college. Maybe stop rationalizing with your emotions and go back to school. You should also probably stop letting talking heads confuse you because you sound like someone else's broken record. Good day sir. Word. Well enjoy your day angry stranger lol. So true, big weddings are a colossal waste of money. Have a small ceremony, spend 5-10K max, concentrate on the marriage. I was married at a free public gazebo overlooking the ocean. Reception in the back yard for families. After that friends without kids went to cool jazz bar and danced away the night. Old school and I still think it’s the best wedding I’ve been too. This is so true!! We had our friends help us with a tiny, inexpensive wedding, and our guests said it was more memorable because it was small and they were part of it. Plus, we didn’t start off our marriage with a ton of wedding debt. We focused on our marriage and kids, and just celebrated our 25th anniversary. Word, if I threw a party that cost 20k? It would make it on national TV. Whose raging? I have read even the the non-ultra Orthodox still average more than 2 kids. I do think the strong sense of community and religious ties help to raise birthrates though. Propose something that doesn’t sound like it came from an alt-right troll I appreciate the clarification. I clearly can give my opinion. I just did. No permission is needed for me to do so. But I do reject your claim that my statement was attempt to “bait.” Have a good holiday. Im an idiot, sorry. I read that you wanted kids and were giving up. Figured id fire you up a bit. If you dont want kids, then dont have kids. ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with it. Thousand of years of evolution to get your genes were they are now will end with you. lol. Im kidding. [deleted] Yes it is. It is more than half of American workers. You also have to take in account that teachers only roughly work 180 days a year. I normal full time job works you 260 days a year. That is a considerable difference here. So if you work another job in the summer to make your total working days 260, you are going to add another 10k or so to your yearly pay. This is true. I mean, I understand why he withdrew support. I just think he’s part of the problem for doing so. I agree that would be true in most cases. However in this case with Joe, his state’s economy is driven by fossil fuels. So of course he isn’t going to support a bill that provides incentives to use renewable energy. But that’s just another, different problem with the American political system. That In trying to protect his state’s interests, he fucks over the entire country. Additionally, we’re addicted to short term satisfaction and can’t delay gratification. The education system must have failed you as that is not the definition of socialism First off you didn’t answer my question. Second, nothing you’ve listed is socialist in any way, namely because the hand-outs don’t exist. Businesses are putting up “help wanted” signs because workers are giving the middle finger to poverty wages and shitty bosses - which is excellent, but has fuckall to do with Biden. Spending on social programs is a net positive, and it’s been proven time and time again. But once again, this administration does not give a screaming fuck about helping the poor. As I said, not socialist. Climate change, however, *is* something leftists as a whole do consider part of our agenda, since a solid chunk of our whole desire behind toppling capitalism is the poisoning of the planet for profit. In that regard Biden is stringently anti-socialist. It’s somewhat odd how we so strongly use polling to make our judgements about policy support but then when it comes to elections we are skeptical of their accuracy. No I completely understand the intended effect that you are describing, but you are wrong to say that the actual effect isn’t outsized power enjoyed by the minority. The constituent base of Republican senators is smaller by 10s of millions of citizens, and yet the hallmarks of Senate governance are heavily skewed towards the right. There is an extremely conservative Supreme Court. The federal judiciary is slanted. The current president, elected by a healthy majority, has his agenda halted. The very fact that the numbers from the last election produced this current composition of representation, instead of something more in line with majority sentiment, is testament to the shortcomings of the system. The US Constitution was a quantum leap of progress for its time, but even masterpieces can have flaws. The test of time has exposed some. The US absolutely is a democracy. It’s a democratic republic. Democracy and Republic are overlapping, not exclusive. The word republic is derived from the Latin *res publica*, meaning “entity of the people.” The fact that you even made that statement proves that you are either ignorant or trolling. It is minority rule because in the regular cycle of exchange of control of the legislature, the Republicans enjoy such an advantage between the Senate and gerrymandering the House that when they have their turn they can pass reconciliation bills and make appointments—while the Democrats start behind the ball and struggle to gain enough control of either body to enact any agenda, even though they have by far more voters throughout the country. If the House and Senate actually uniformly represented the overall constituency (as Madison intended before the great compromise), the right word almost never hold control. That would force a shift of the Overton window which we clearly should have and desperately need. My point about the ability to amend the constitution was more a commentary on how even the founders recognized the shortcomings of the system as it stood. Conservatives by nature espouse the infallibility of the document, but even those who created it clearly intended for it to morph and evolve. Plenty of rich old white women politicians who are just as corrupt as Joe Manchin Sure, there are rich old white women too. My intention wasn't to make a gendered comment, just didn't necessarily want to go down the rabbit-hole of specifically identifying every privileged group in America. Although honestly, I suppose I could have just bottom-lined it and said ""overwhelmingly white people. Overwhelmingly older white people, or people with multi-generational wealth."" I was referring to the fact that he asked if they read the article No one on Reddit reads the article You're just parroting it. So the child tax credit disappears after one year? Please... Yep, $11 Billion. Previous record was $3 Billion. His un realized gains is what infuriates people. 300 bln in worth and he's acting like a big man over 15bln in lifetime taxes He has the financial flexibility to take his comp this way but most normal people are limited to a max of 19500 to their tax deferred 401k [removed] Lol I don't normally enjoy others rage but I'm straight up laughing though I shouldn't be. It's actually sad. Our wedding was similar. We had a big barbecue, rented out my wife’s bar for the reception and hired a local band to play for the night. His family and friends come out and have some fun. The entire event cost under $1k and we still have people tell us it was the best wedding they’ve been to. Me agreeing with you does not mean I have a better solution Also just realizing that there is an implication that I am an alt-right troll. Fucking hell. I thought we were going down the conversation line of ending ""us vs them"". Holy shit, was I mistaken. Propose something that's doesn't sound like every other highly indoctrinated, militant, Vax-blinded, data-denying, propaganda peddling, ignorant fool. One that lives for division. That yearns for the death of America. There are couple things that I hear religiously from you mindless, caustic, botlike insults to the human race. And I have a couple questions. Keep in mind, I and neither republican nor am I conservative. Because neither parties exist. But there are some factions that exist. There's no good republicans or bad democrats or vice versa. That is just something to keep us busy fighting amongst ourselves There's the highly corrupt: let's face it, corruption of those in power is inevitable as it is undeniably in human nature, however, when an elected official no longer acts as a representative of the people, they got to go as they use their power for personal gain, effectively robbing millions of taxpayers. See Nancy Pelosi, Trump, Biden etc Then there's the obligated. This faction is grateful for their votes that brought them into this position of....(well it shouldn't be power, but we have facilitated that by allowing things such as lobbyists. I have never understood a lobby to be anything other than an underminer of democrasy) public servitude. Proud of their constituency, and feeling the need to address their concerns, their offices are quick to help with casework. Provides prompt, direct, valid responses to inquiries and constantly reaches across party lines to compromise and find solutions to the problems of a population that is trusting and depending onto do so. My questions are Who's side are you on? Why? I am skeptical when your comments were discussing my avoidance and my unwillingness to engage your argument. Honestly, that does weigh on me. My dad and I are very proud of our genetics. I'd like to appreciate that both of us were able to reevaluate the conversation. Much respect to you for making it happen. Said the have's to the have-not's Agreed. He is 100% part of the problem. Typical liberal insult and ignorance. Well, there you have it! You said “toppling capitalism”! Thats your route cause? Not only is that sad but its inflammatory. You keep supporting your social hand outs and we will see who wins in the end. I think it has something to do with some people might be more wary of saying “I support Donald trump” than they are “I don’t support this specific bill” The argument that the Senate was created due to slavery is severely anachronistic. Slavery was not the issue at the Constitutional convention -- the 3/5th provision was whether to treat slaves like women and children verses treating them like livestock -- nobody was suggesting they be treated equally to adult white male property owners. My dude we're having a discussion right now about how the minority of people get to decide what happens. I don't think you can reasonably call that a democracy. My b How do you think this shit works? Funding is passed for specific time periods. If they want it again in another year they have to pass it again. You're the one using accounting tricks. You're spouting propaganda. Thanks, but I'm not a bird. Taxing unrealized gains is just not the best concept imo. What happens when it's an unrealized loss? lol 🤷‍♂️ [deleted] I'm not liberal You’re not great at, like, reading comprehension. Why are you saying this to me? Are you arguing that the senate was created to appease small population states? Had nothing to do with that, more with partisanship and the exact bullshit we see today with both parties Okay. Under the most generous assessment the program is ""Fully funded for one year...probably; after that who knows, peasant!"" Cool. No, you're just acting like one. Idk why this is so difficult to understand. No gain no taxes. Wow that was hard. I didn't really say it was. All I said is the mega wealthy get to do it way more than average Joe does. Lol indeed. That's dramatic. Of course you would post an insult. Yes the concern was that a democratic federal government making decisions for all the states would allow the massive populations of the larger states to run roughshod over the interests of the smaller at a time when State identity was of vastly greater concern than today -- the Senate was safeguard that Massachusetts couldn't STOMP Rhode Island. The primary political issues were over taxation, national debt, and competing claims over western expansion -- those would shortly be overwhelmed by the Pro-Britain vs. Pro-France factions that were already uncomfortable in the runup to the French revolution. > h The program *doesn't continue* after a year. You're inventing a situation where it continues without some funding mechanism. That is not the proposal. It's a boogeyman. The mega wealthy get to do what? Not pay taxes on money they don't have? It doesn't seem problematic. Unrealized gains is not money in hand. Interesting thanks. I need to revisit It's a differed gain the same way me putting g money into a 401k is" The Fed says US unemployment is actually about 10% — nearly double the official rate and matching the worst of the Great Recession,2285,https://www.businessinsider.com/us-unemployment-rate-double-official-rate-fed-worst-great-recession-2021-2,"This is why we should be looking at the U-6 rate for an accurate measure of US unemployment, not the official U-3 rate. U-6 factors in people who have left the workforce because they can't find a job, as well as those working part-time that would choose full-time work if more hours were available from their employer. This rate has been above 11% for many months now: https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t15.htm Unemployment during the Great Recession was probably closer to 20% than to 10. And stock market at all time high loool wtf [deleted] Seems about right. More coverage at: * [Powell: Actual unemployment rate closer to 10% (msn.com)](https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/other/powell-actual-unemployment-rate-closer-to-10/vi-BB1dzLl7) * [Fed Chair Powell says rates will stay low for a while, citing bleak jobs picture (cnbc.com)](https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/10/fed-chair-powell-citing-bleak-jobs-picture-says-policy-will-need-to-stay-patiently-accommodative.html) * [Powell Says the True Unemployment Rate is Actually 10% (thestreet.com)](https://www.thestreet.com/mishtalk/economics/powell-says-the-true-unemployment-rate-is-actually-10-percent) --- ^(I'm a bot to find news from different sources.) [^(Report an issue)](https://www.reddit.com/user/MultiSourceNews_Bot/comments/k5pcrc/multisourcenews_bot_info/) ^(or PM me.) This is completely disingenuous. You compare apples to apples. You cannot compare the unofficial rate now to the official rate in ‘08. Don't you dare stop the printers jpow! I don't believe that either. [deleted] They know, they just don’t care. Nah shit... Like it's pretty well known that a large number of people drop off the reporting when there's no longer a reason to report.... Translation: ""WE NEED MOOOAAAR PRINTING BRRRRRRR"" And the stock market is at an all time high. I am one of them too ugh.. Always nice to see an organization comment on a crisis they helped create. This could be a set up. Prepare your minds for more job killing policies. More unemployment to come. If the government keeps sending me my petty 1.6k why the hell would I want a job? I never thought I’d see the day the US turned into Russia.. but here we are. There can never be enough fiat currency in the global monetary system to pay off the debt it in turn creates from simply existing. [https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/](https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/) “I don’t believe we shall ever have a good money again before we take the thing out of the hands of government, that is, we can’t take it violently out of the hands of government, all we can do is by some sly roundabout way introduce something that they can’t stop.” – F.A. Hayek 1984” God bless the decentralised blockchain and fuck the cretins like Jamie dimon for calling us stupid for investing in it. Pricks like him can’t control it. central banks too would watch the world burn if they could still be in control of its ashes. The stonk market goes brrrrrrr 💲💴💵💵💷💸🤑 At least it's because of a pandemic, not because banks didn't want to lose money. And joe is doing nothing. Somebody go wake him up and remind him he is president Come on Biden!! We need more jobs like you said And they said rampant inflation is coming! Yay! Let’s print more trillions! If this is right out of the horses mouth than why the fuck are we still using U3? How credible is that claim though? Any proofs that I can see? Apples to oranges comparison And mean while the politicians in Washington can’t move on and do their actual jobs. When is the country going to realize all they do is mess the country up and don’t really give a crap about what is happening to the American? Legislate our lives into a more prosperous union. Preeeeeeenntt dat shit! It is always better to rely on **U-6** data as it accounts for all unemployed, workers who became disabled, people who have gone back to school, unemployed, or working part-time. Whereas **U-3** considers only those, who are actively looking for a job U-6 and U-3 are very tightly correlated. You can basically take U-3, multiply it by about 1.6 and have an almost perfect representation of U-6. Here’s a chart that shows them graphed on top of one another. Notice how they track almost perfectly: https://unemploymentdata.com/current-u6-unemployment-rate/ So if you’re looking for trends, it really doesn’t matter what you’re looking at. All of the numbers are reported, but U-3 is the ""headline"" number. They're all equally ""official"". Exactly this - also worth noting that any time you hear mainstream media report on jobs numbers it is ALWAYS the U-3 rate, and if you are out of work for more then 6 months you are no longer counted as unemployed on the U-3. I love the ""nearly double the official rate"" sensationalism, like this is some how news. Surprise! Government statistics are skewed... yeah no shit. Even better than the U6 is to look at workforce participation rate. We are at the lowest point since before women entered the workforce. It's insane. Google: ""fred workforce participation"" or ""fred labor force participation"" Yep. Also CPI is a shit indicator of inflation and doesn’t really factor cost of living rises in relation to wage growth stagnation. Ding ding ding! I've been saying this for years. People will give up on looking and ask if sudden they no longer count in the unemployment rate. What happens to these people who have left the workforce? Do they become homeless? Get on welfare and when that runs out turn to selling drugs? Do they just walk into the ocean and just disappear one day? Because they can’t find a job lmfao.... you mean because they think they’re so highly qualified that they can’t dig holes for money... ducking losers.. anyone with student debt is a loser. Exactly they are comparing 2021 estimated number vs 2008 reported number. It's a false comparison Yeah but since they didn’t have any mean of measuring we’ll never know.... oh like right now. There also wasn’t a worldwide pandemic that caused the governments to force businesses to close. I have many friends in the CA hospitality industry that are on payroll, but have been “unemployed” twice in 12 months for a total of 5 months because the businesses they work for couldn’t operate under local health department restrictions. Everyone's screaming INFLATION. It's not that. It's *who's* unemployed. The great recession was white collar workers, financial outfits, corporations. This time around it's restaurants, tourism, small businesses. The market doesn't give a shit about any of those things. If the stock market averages a positive return (even if it's 0.1% ... it's not, but it doesn't take much for this statement to be true), it will be reporting an ""all time high"" most of the time. The Fed Injects money. The more we print the higher the inflation Google: Inflation The elite have to protect their money all time high SO FAR Only an all time high when you don't consider other factors. Such as the increase in currency compared to current market prices puts the current market behind pre covid prices. Depends in what currency your using. 11 months ago a bitcoin would only buy you 2 SP500's now it'll get you 15! That's a massive drop in the market if you own bitcoin. Betting is not earning Because the significant drop in risk-free rates, and therefore, discount rates, more than offsets a year or two of weak earnings. A stock selling at a P/E of 20 has just 5% of its value based on earnings a year out. Think of stocks as bonds with a maturity date of infinity. Maybe... it would have been easier to stop the virus spread. But low likely I feel as if something’s different??? I assume he is throwing in PUA (pandemic unemployment assistance)? It jumped by 1.4 million in the last week to 8.7M. +or-? Or change how we think of money... eh printing mores easier A whole state that I know of The last recourse of the desperate Please go read more about how the job report numbers are always off in times of recession before you go about spewing the first bullshit conspiracy that comes to mind. The mental gymnastics you have to perform to even get to the drivel you just posted is impressive. If they are trying to kill jobs why is Biden's administration saying they think the numbers are better than that in reality and announcing they plan for ""full employment"" as soon as end of next year. Actually, on second thought don't answer. Done. Yep and thanks,you’re single handedly supporting 30 million who never worked or paid taxes a day in their lives. And wtf is U-3 and U-7??? Do y’all really live off my taxes? You make no sense, money is literally created off of debt. You’re right.. though the printing started last January > apples to oranges But you can still compare them. Yep. I dropped them both in Excel a few years ago (I think I used the recession years as the date filter) and it came back with a 98% correlation. While one may be more accurate by definition, they both show the same information/trends. People either don’t know that or they intentionally use U6 to be deceptive. >So if you’re looking for trends, it really doesn’t matter what you’re looking at. True. But most conversations aren't about looking at trends but relative comparisons to other points in time. > if you are out of work for more then 6 months you are no longer counted as unemployed on the U-3. This is incorrect. You can be out of a job for 10 years straight and so long as you've made a specific effort to find employment within the last 4 weeks, you'd still be counted in U3. I used to calculate the measures of labor underutilization for the government. I mean U6 is also a government statistic. And U3 has been the standard as the “unemployment rate” for decades. Most news coverage you hear will discuss both They’re both ‘official’ rates. It’s doesn’t really even matter if you use U3 or U6 anyways. They are so tightly correlated they move in lockstep. Using U6 over U3 is just sensationalism that politicians and media use to make you think things are actually worse than the government’s numbers in U3. “The government is ignoring everyone who is in U6!” No they aren’t. The data and definitions may be different, but an x U3 will statistically almost always be a y U6. > if you are out of work for more then 6 months you are no longer counted as unemployed on the U-3 Soo, the actual unemployment is U-3 + U-6? Surprise! We all knew that already Federal Reserve! What??? The CPI thats relative to 1980 prices? Irrelevant? Never! Yeah, stupid question from an uneducated ape. Why would raising wages now raise the cost of living if wages haven't actually increased significantly in years yet the cost of living/inflation has regardless? Aren't the latter factors disproportionately higher than wages right now? Sure.. others retire, others go to school. Some are secondary or tertiary earners and turn to doing more stuff w/house and family. Not everyone lives by themselves paycheck to paycheck There's always your parents' basement... a friend's couch... mooching off an employed sex partner... living in your car as long as you can keep it from being repossessed... long-term camping on BLM land... the possibilities are endless. Yes thinking about buying a yacht.... need some money though cash is short right now. https://youtu.be/12bM1CqHoBY Yes. Not quite. They're comparing the reported 2008 U-3 rate vs the reported 2021 U-6 rate. The U-6 rate during the great recession topped out at about 17%, compared to the current 11%. In April 2020 it was almost 23%, which is staggering. So how did the fed measure and get 10% Maybe you would be more comfortable with the conversations over at zero hedge. Their level of competency with the material seems more your speed. The inflation is in the financial assets (stocks, bonds, real estate). [removed] Yup. Not a tough concept yet folks are dumb founded. 🤷‍♂️ Sigh that’s not quite right. Inflation/deflation happens based on money in circulation. No matter how much money you print if institutions and individuals are sitting on piles of cash the money supply constricts causing deflation. The fed will create/destroy money to balance the amount of money in circulation. Not really. If the fed pumps money into places (like banks) where it sits and doesn’t enter the economy writ large, you won’t get inflation. But, if banks start to LEND the money, different story. The steepening of the yield curve may encourage banks to lend more, which would be more of the direct injection of money supply into spending, which could give you inflation. isnt that surge from Elons tweets? and Tesla can afford that with their massive valuation due to their stock market price? [deleted] People don't earn money in America - at least not the people actually making the money, if y nawmsayn. Right? Maybe we should have taken the virus seriously at the beginning so we didn’t have to see so many people die and suffer. But we chose the idiot way - no masks, no respect for other people, no sorry about the old and sick. It’s a serious crime against citizens to not take a pandemic seriously. Much higher than reported. Lol, Many people in the energy sector are already laid off thanks to Biden's policy. So, go figure. I guess you are a big fan, so no need to argue if it's just going to fly past ability to comprehend. Lol currency is debt. Know the difference between currency and money. Riddle me this, who are we in debt to? [global debt clock](https://www.usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html) 20 percent of all money in circulation currently Most people are familiar with the scale of U-3. When they hear the U-6 number, they compare it to the one they are familiar with. Personally I have never heard any mainstream media (financial or otherwise) ever mention the words U-3 or U-6, let alone discussing the differences between the two. It is always the just the ""unemployment rate"". No, real unemployment is U-6 + discouraged workers, commonly seen in a drop of the labor force participation rate - frictional unemployment, estimated at 2-4%. it would still produced some improvement, but you are right that it wont get people up to standards they had in 70s/80-s 23 is staggering, but it only lasted a blink. It dropped almost immediately. It’s down to 12% now. In the Great Recession the U-6 was over 15% for more than a year. (Nearly 4 years if I remember correctly). That’s really staggering. It’s a guess... so it’s worse. What material? A lack of information though interesting is not an absence of an issue. Then start buying fractional shares. Find 20 bucks a week and starting buying. It's not just for the rich. I started making my own lunches and put the difference in the market. Seems fucking ridiculous and slow at first but after a year it's starting to look like real money But if they inject it into a volatile market like they have been the past year the inflation will go up because its actually circulating. 2020 in 1 year had the volatility of a market in a 10 year span. Nah, it was on its way up before that I think it is a side effect of the bull market/inflation though. Middle class people feel like they missed out on the S&P, so they’re trying to get gains wherever they can Someone always loses in betting therefore it’s legal theft.... it grows nothing Mostly Smart Oh man, a bunch of temporary jobs vs investing in long term solutions that not only provide stability in employment but are also better for the environment. So terrible. But no, let's keep investing investing in the past. Wow you’re dumber than I thought lol, pick up a book kiddo If you listen to the right journalists they will. Planet Money from NPR episode [https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2011/12/01/143016866/unemployment-falls-to-8-6-percent](https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2011/12/01/143016866/unemployment-falls-to-8-6-percent) There is quality reporting, but you have to be discerning on where you go for news. What a fine contribution to the conversation... /s In your opinion, what is the information that is lacking? The problem isn't how poor people spend $20 a week, it's billionaires hoarding obscene amounts of wealth. Yeah, man. When the bullies throw my lunch tray on the ground, I just eat it off the floor. Cause, you know, it’s still got all of the nutrition in it. One day if I keep eating off the floor maybe, if I’m lucky I’ll get to be a part of the bully group too. It’s like a little game. The point of injecting money at this point is to keep the money supply circulating. The thing is that in times of crisis people will double down on savings and reduce spending. Same with corporations. In other words, lots of money sitting in bank accounts. The fed will buy securities with newly created cash to offset this. They can also do this in reverse, where they’ll sell the securities at favorable prices which to remove the cash out of the economy. Deflation can have very destructive effects to the economy compared to inflation, so the fed keeping deflation away, even at the cost of some inflation, is an understandable tactic (though a controversial one) Imagine I start a company, and sell shares to fund the money to do it. Then the company is a huge success, and everyone gets rich. Nobody lost money in the process.. we actually created more wealth and sent it out into society. If those investors sell their shares to new investors, and the new investors sell after the price goes up, nobody’s actually lost out. If you’re talking about CFDs or short term OTM options it’s a little different story, but even then it’s not like a casino where the house always wins. You can take either side of any bet any time, and a lot of those risky trades are part of larger net-positive transactions Just judging from my friends, all college grads, about a third of them are unemployed now. Some got their jobs back, others have been recently let go Why not in phases? Out with the old, in with the new? Provide a transition period and not just kill one and make promises on the other. lol cognitive dissonance is a bitch isn’t it. read: The creature from jekyll island - G Edward Griffin, The Tower of Basel - Adam Lebor, A pocketbook of gold - James E Sinclair, End the fed - Ron Paul. I could go on or shall we continue with this game of futile dick swinging? “Kid”. I listen to marketplace and they never bring it up. If a financial news program doesn't talk about it its not really in the public eye. Numbers of out of work or underemployed or inadequately paid. Agreed. Now, if you find yourself on the wrong end of this injustice, you should absolutely protest and vote your interest. And while you're doing all of that, you should also take advantage of the tools that are currently available to better your position. $20/week into investments at 7.5%/year turns into $15k after 5 years, and $105k in 10. That goes a huge way to getting someone out of poverty. Hell, you could put a down payment on a house/condo in driving distance of a major city. The problem is this encourages wild risk taking, buying into the most expensive stock market ever. The other shoe must fall sometime no? Opt out of this insensible system by buying Bitcoin. This is the only protest that can hurt them and benefit yourself That they get by stealing from thier customers and employees. lol... what? Ya thats why we keep getting pandemic checks.... So like Sears? Yeah good news it’s definitely getting better.... oops sorry that’s for a year from now, it just popped out. We were already on that transition before your boy Mango took over. https://e360.yale.edu/digest/the-trump-administration-rolls-back-the-clean-power-plan Yes, it is not a common topic of discussion from major media sources. I still can't believe there isn't more coverage of the [Beige Book](https://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/beige-book-default.htm) (AKA Fed data by anecdote) . It's always the most expensive stock market ever .. that's the point over the long haul it pays off. You are saying Bitcoin(who 90% of people who buy it couldn't explain what it is even in the most basic terms ) is a safer bet than buying ownership of profitable companies? Bitcoin looks cheap? I’m 100% with you but this is a finance sub so of course it’s all chuds and people with no class consciousness so of course they’re down voting you I’m so tired of everyone peddling their hopium, think and grow rich bullshit. Especially now. It’s chump change compared to what’s circulating in the economy outside of a crisis. Don’t get me wrong give people cash is way better, but the fed can’t do that and we’ve seen how absurdly difficult it is to get Congress to pass any funding that’s not military. I don't understand what you're doing here. You seem to be on this technical finance subreddit with a chip on your shoulder, arguing in bad faith against the fundamental tenets of capitalism. You think that stock ownership is a net negative to society because a large company went bankrupt? Not here for a political spin or showdown. It will never end. As always, we can do better. I'm not down with childish talks. Not constructive. Assuming things is a very stupid way to get anywhere. Did Orange Man kill Tesla, Workhorse, Lordstown motors? He promoted Workhorse and Lordstown EVs at the white house. Not saying I agree with anything he did or didn't, I just think business and markets can address our needs of the future. We are funding climate change when we have a job and we invest our income in what we believe is our future. yes indeed that is exactly what I am saying it is a system that is antifragile and exists outside of the central bank system, and all its money printing warping true compnay values. No one in this environment thinks any stock price is reflective of the underlying company fundamentals. Everyone agrees everything is absolutely bonkers and then extreme cases pop up like GME and AMC as if someone is screaming at the top of their lungs - THIS GAME IS ABSOLUTELY INSANE! ​ Bitcoin suffers from none of that, and just on one or two of the problems it solves, on those alone it is on its way to at least a 10T market cap, as it is better than gold is at being gold, more divisible, more verifiable, but most importantly decentralized and super cheap to transport across the world. But then you look over to negative interest reates and the size of that market currently (20T), plus many others, real estate, fine art, and other store of values, and you see such a massive addressable market. There is nothing as undervalued out there right now (even with a 5x increase in 6 months) than Bitcoin, with the lowest risk possible. Upward volatility is a desirable place for value to be parked, outside of the dilutive forces of the money printer, and in fact benefits from that. I also agree with the idea that the ultra-wealthy exploit the people who work for them, but I don’t think calling it “stealing” is a good way to put it. It doesn’t really describe what’s going on and sounds biased to people who don’t already agree with the premise. Having a tiny percentage of people holding a huge amount of resources is just how things shake out in any system. Instead of trying to rip Bezos into tiny pieces so you can mail everyone on the planet a $30 check, you should focus on making sure there’s a safety net for people on the other end of society. I think he just means to start investing, even if it's just small amounts at first. It adds up. No just put some money away even if its fucking 5 bucks a week and stop counting other people's money A large company....? Oh you mean GM. Holy shit, it's a legit troll account. The same Tesla that is only profitable because of forced government credits at the state level? Please tell me more. You seem to be super knowledgeable about everything you speak of. Yep. Its not like I have thousands but it's not horrible now 20 bucks a week is painful but I finally just damn did it Just in time to do slightly better than your other peers, but still a thousand times worse than the frat boys who inherit millions from mommy and daddy This country needs real wealth redistribution- concentration of wealth is an increasingly serious issue and ignoring it or trying to somehow participate despite the senselessness of trying to do so without any wealth is a stupid move for 90%+ of people Exactly what I’m trying to say...we ignore the unemployed and let bankers take away our high wages and defined benefit pension plans and we become obsessed with the “8th wonder of the world” compound interest. And it’s not true—you won’t beat the market over thirty years I promise. And hey what a second, where are the customer’s yachts. The financial sector takes us for a ride. The OP I replied to is saying hey man skip the avocado toast and ignore the real unemployment rate that we’re going through. Poor form I think. Compound me $5 a week at 12% over 30 years. Do you teach that in you Finra class? How many months rent is that? How will that help the person laid off for a year because of covid? I’m not counting other people’s money I’m acknowledging that sometimes the world is unfair and we need a social safety net. And less bootstraps. [deleted] Well you can keep whining about how rich other people are or you can work hard enough to build a small fortune of your own. What can you do about it as an individual? Who said anything about beating the market? Encouraging people to use what tools they do have to better their position is not the same as ignoring the problem - it's being realistic about what the best move you can make right now is. >The OP I replied to is saying hey man skip the avocado toast and ignore the real unemployment rate that we’re going through. Poor form I think. No, s/he said invest what you can spare in fractional shares, then offered an example of where they were able to cut some expenses. You're confusing a relevant example with bad faith rhetoric, context matters. Comparison is the thief of joy. It's useless to obsess over people who have more than you. >Compound me $5 a week at 12% over 30 years. Total value of your investment: $61,190.07 Total earned: $53,985.07 It's a start or I guess you can just sit on your ass and complain all day long. If you don't start with something you have nothing Say you get it to 20 a week. That's 160k at 12% after 30 years that's not a ton of money but its not nothing if laid off are you one of the 30mil that are collecting unemployment ? We have social safety nets unemployment, welfare,snap,Medicaid, they aren't perfect but no safety net is. So what's wrong with putting money away ? Why are you shitting on it ? Maybe the person starts with 20 and sees it grow, gives up coffee and bumps it to 40 or 50 a week. The key is to stop going to the pawn shop, carrying credit card balances, taking payday loans, and leasing cars. Right now a lot of poor people in the USA are paying huge amounts of compound interest instead of earning small amounts of it, and that’s the real problem for a lot of people. The government, and the fed, are essentially cutting off our ""bootstraps"" and increasing our reliance on social programs. Dependency on the welfare system is a nasty cycle that can't be slowed down, unless we regain our financial independence and economic freedom. For that to happen, the government would need to get out of the way (less taxes, regulations, special favors handed out), and allow people to produce, and keep more of their productive capital. The fed is the primary mechanism that transfers wealth from the poor and middle class, to the financial asset holding institutional class, so it will need to disappear as well. When that happens, there will hardly be a need for these social safety nets because we'll be so much better off. TLDR we want independence from government, not more government Yeah Europe has no government credits. Jesus dude.... And that still is an aside from the reality they don't make money selling the cars. Convince other people that what I’ve observed is in fact a problem and it’s inhibiting the general welfare of our entire society. Organize with others, cooperate with people who agree with me, and try to change society. Protest, work with lawyers, participate in politics, promote leaders who agree with my positions, push specific legislation I believe will help, etc. There are other ways to make a mark on society than only just trying to build one’s own fortune. Am I packing my lunch to get sub par returns? Are you about to sell me a whole life insurance plan? Annuity? Aren’t you making the argument that we keep saving that money and compounding it so one day our widow’s new husband can spend it? I’m an American so my doctor/hospital will take my life long savings for my last disease. After a night’s sleep and a review of this chain. I think you’re right. It seems like the poster was personally just trying to save $20 bucks a week and recommending that to others in the same position . It wasn’t my intent to discourage anyone from saving and trying to improve their position. But context does matter...the thread is about how millions of Americans are unemployed because a virus has killed 400k Americans and I read all that and then see what appeared to be another one of those: “act rich and you’ll be rich” posts. It’s not just about packing lunch when you’re about to be evicted. But I’m ready to concede that the “pack a lunch” OP wasn’t acting in bad faith—but you have to concede that many people making those same arguments are acting in bad faith. I don’t think it’s useless, it’s what our system is designed to do, it doesn’t even attempt to begin to enforce even the slightest level of egalitarian philosophy. If it weren’t for comparisons black Americans would still be in chains and kings would still rule monarchies. Comparison is the basis for all social movements. It’s easy to ignore the differences and unfairness in the system when someone is benefitting from it Hahaha! I do have to admit that’s higher than I roughed it out in my head. Compounding is magic! /me looks guiltily at his Starbucks cup You’re posting on a thread that says millions are unemployed and telling people to skip lunch and save some money. Like I agree in theory but. It’s like telling kids in Flint Michigan to drink water because hydration is important. You get what I’m saying? [deleted] Sounds like a full time activist job, so communism is what your suggesting here? Totally agreed that this sort of argument often is bad faith, which is actually the reason I inserted myself to defend a time that it wasn't. Also agreed that bootstraps alone is far from enough to solve the issue, and that people who are about to be evicted are probably not just spending money on avocado toast. Huge respect for your attitude. Still, reduce inflation and remeber that the billionaire gets a higher return on their investment playing the same game. So, after 30 years, the gap in wealth is bigger than it was and $50k doesn't buy as much as it does now. Yea, more money is nice, but individuals playing with pocket change won't change the system. That's awesome I get it. But this is one of the times there are actual programs to reduce the burden of unemployment and they extended and increased it. Not saying skip lunch maybe find a cheaper version or make coffee at home just to find 5 a week. Its just a start and let's you feel a little bit in control. No he just set it back 4 years, which has cost jobs. Just like despite his hand out to coal, jobs were lost there as well. You're never going to keep jobs when you're transitioning to new sectors. Why don't those people pull themselves up by their bootstraps? Nah, Democratic Socialism. Increasing worker ownership, raising and enforcing progressive taxes, disempowering the ultra wealthy, breaking up monopolies, etc. Still a capitalist system, but with a unavoidable wealth tax that prevents any individual from being too influential all while creating a high quality social safety net. Thanks for inserting yourself into the thread, it gave me an opportunity to look back on my comments and realize some mistaken assumptions and statements I’d made—and that’s always a good thing. How does a billionaire making more than you actually impact you other than being annoyed? The other answer is don't do anything and actually lose money due to inflation The gap between us and billionaires doesn't actually impact us directly" "U.S. fines 16 Wall Street firms $1.8 bln for talking deals, trades on personal apps",2171,https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/us-fines-16-major-wall-street-firms-11-billion-over-recordkeeping-failures-2022-09-27/,"Ok. Now do congress. 1.8 bln? Tell me how much they made in profit because this may just be a cost of doing business. Until these penalties get to be the amount of gains from the bad behavior and a penalty it’s probably going to be shrugged off. Especially being that this 1.8 is divided by how many companies? Yawn, that’s nice! Fines are a joke. Who gets that money anyway >From January 2018 through September 2021, the banks' staff routinely communicated about business matters such as debt and equity deals with colleagues, clients and other third party advisers using applications on their personal devices such as text messages and WhatsApp, the agencies said. The institutions did not preserve the majority of those personal chats, violating federal rules which require broker-dealers and other financial institutions to preserve business communications. Wait, are broker dealers not allowed to talk about business outside of work? >Wall Street banks have for years struggled to stamp out the use of personal devices at work - often banning them altogether from trading floors - but the problem became acute as bankers and traders worked from home during the pandemic. Were these individuals conducting business using personal devices, or using personal devices to talk about their work? I know there is a fine line, but it seems weird to me if the regulation is that brokers can't talk about their work on personal devices. But, I do understand the need to use company devices when doing work on behalf of the company. Jesus what a paltry. VW alone had to pay 4 billion for the emissions scandal. 1.8 billion is meaningless split between 16 multi-billion dollar firms. It’s not even $1.8 bln a piece. They are paying penny’s for the shit they do. I'm shocked /S I can remember even back to 2015 that compliance was always playing catchup with BYOD. No one is going to do shady shit on bloomberg chat anymore- it was always on Snap, or Insta DMs. Why don’t they restrict the guilty firms trading activity too? They might actually stop. Fuck a fine take all earnings that quarter as a penalty Left hand pays right hand. The bots are easy to spot today. Punishable by fine= legal for a fee What does that equate to as a % of the profit they made? Civil penalties should be indexed to income! Is “bln” the abbreviation for billion? If they got fined 2bl, what did they make off those deals? A fuking trillion dollars? Massive blow and great news for the health and fairness of the financial markets! Imagine doing what the government and every associative 3 letter entity it has does Just to be told on and ridiculed by the government. A true work of Hollywood lol Cost of doing business. Smash these companies into a million little pieces and scatter them in the wind. Another thing that would never happen under any Republican administration. [deleted] Doesn’t seem like a big enough fine. That's probably like 10% of what they made on those deals. White collar crimes pay up the ass and the consequences are minor even if you get caught. Start throwing people in jail, then we can talk. So sick to death of our 2 tiered justice system. Great now hit congress for inside trading And banking stocks rise on the news Odd, it doesn’t say how many execs were fired… oh wait… 🤦‍♂️ so $112 million apiece??? that's not a penalty, hell that's not even a tax! that's just the cost of doing business I wish they would start means testing banks like they means test working class people for a drop in the bucket of student loan forgiveness, or for basically every benefit on the books besides social security/medicare. CODB Bullshit! They need to take every fucking profit made How much profit have they made as an outcome of the crimes they committed? Rich get the fines poor do the time. The system is rotten to the core and needs to burnt to the ground! Isn't it lovely how the angels that live in [r/capitalism](http://r/capitalism) have dragged us back to the robber Baron days of the 30s. OK now fine them a FLAT PERCENTAGE OF THE COMPANIES/FIRMS WORTH. No more slaps on the writ and no more ""cost of doing buisiness"" style fines. That’s one way of trying to balance the budget. So where does all that money actually go? It’s a self regulated industry lol. don't worry, these firms still kept the other 99.9% of their profit after agreeing to pay the fine. Any policy/law that's punishment is a fine just mean it's legal at a cost. (Legal for the rich, illegal for the poor) These guys made so much money that $1.6 billion across 16 Wall Street firms is a drop in the bucket. The number is large enough to fool the average people to think justice has been made while in reality they are already committing the same crimes again because pros outweighs the cons significantly. you mean the army Congress isn’t subject to insider trading rules. If you want to stop that, vote for the candidates who don’t take Wall Street donations. What a pointless zero effort comment, how does this even apply for congress? Fine them for not backing up work communications made on private devices? Pennies in fines compared to their actual crimes. They don’t know whether it is bad behavior or not. The problem is the record keeping, not that they were doing shady deals. I am not saying they weren’t, but that is not what the penalty is for. To be fair, the violations aren’t incredibly serious. I think a lot of people have done this, myself included the cost of doing business Read the article before you make the same comment that's in every thread on reddit. All they were doing was texting about work stuff on their personal phones It should be their full year profit and no zero bonus for bankers. If only the USA could send people to places with bars in the windows for a very long time. Can they write the fines off as a business expense on taxes? Should be quadruple the profit in fines and minimum 2 years in prison. Nothing will stop until they just start throwing people in jail. They'll always pay whatever fine. Start taking their freedom away. Extra 1.8 billion in the safe is not so bad, do it a few more times solve all tbe problems The government/ country benefits from the stock market, from all those businesses continuing to run, from the money they create. Capitalism continuing to zoom etc etc they are not going to bite the hand that feeds Pay to play Still waiting on my check to pay the guy with that deal for a bridge in Brooklyn /s I'm in the industry and everything work related must be recorded and archived for like 10 years. We're told that if we use our phones to communicate that you must use designated apps that the messengers go through so that it's recorded. Most companies don't let you text clients yet either as its not recorded. In the securities industry there are systems called Chinese walls. Or a firm has to put in place safeguards that prohibit different parts of the firm from discussing business with each other. If a trader at the trading desk can alert a colleague of a large block trade from an institution that will move the market they can alert others that will allow them to buy/sell from their personal accounts or they can recomend their clients do the same creating an unfair market for everyone else. These traders were using personal devices to get around those regulations hence the big fines. These people receive so much training regarding these regulations. They were either being nefarious or knowingly ignoring their training (which they likely receive four times a year). The banks 100% deserve the fines. You’re hung up on the device being used. Whereas the matter at hand is that they can’t talk about deals for which they have inside information what so ever, regardless of the device. It’s a requirement under Sarbanes Oxley that any communication regarding deals, trading, insider information, etc. be recorded and kept for 10 years by the company. Because the offense was fairly minor. Things like using personal text messages rather than the company run texting app. Shouldn’t the penalty be related to the severity of the crime? Wrapped in their daily loss limit. I’m not sure if this is sarcastic or not but they will continue to be corrupt if they get fined instead of jail time Dropped this /s For texting about work stuff instead of using email? I don’t think it’s the end of the world you think nobody should get paid at all if they texted on personal cell phones? this is a record-keeping violation not malfeasance towards a client… You spelled processing fee wrong. Also no jail time. An average person literally has a better chance of being put behind bars for stealing a loaf of bread than these super crooks do for insider trading. “I” mean all of it, “I” think these are the cases that actually matter to the country, and they need to be addressed immediately regardless of their slanted lackadaisical schedule. These new IRS employees we’ve hired need to start from the top, and work their way down through all of the infrastructure in federal, state, and local government. Then repeat every year. Come on now, you can't be this naive. And you want to call someone out for zero effort? And the record keeping is to prevent shady deals. You need to read between the lines. These companies were doing insider trading and they deleted the evidence despite being required by law to keep it. What I always found odd is that if you speak to someone, you don't have to record that. Yet text messages have to be stored for 10 years. So you know breaking the rules and deleting the conversations including the conversations about the investigations that they took to the messaging app Signal? You know like what it says in the article? Yeah what's a little insider trading between friends? You make it sound like it’s OK… They we’re not, for example, chatting about banal “work stuff”, but rather discussing trades and other non-public information. It is both unlawful and unethical. Furthermore, after the SEC declared the intention of their investigation (which is a poor strategy for trying to catch people breaking the law) the traders erased the very evidence that would implicate their guilt. That’s only for poor people The sec doesn’t have the authority to jail people. All they can do is levy fines. I'll say it again for you. Pay To Play Right. This isn't a punishment for texting about work, it a fine for not saving the messages that discuss work Would be easier if everyone got a work phone Furthermore I forgot to mention it appears from skimming the article that the SEC isn't saying they violated insider trading regs. Only that these firms didn't save the communications which is a big issue. If someone alleges they violated insider trading regs the company can fall back on saved communication and proven process as a form of proof absolving them of fault. Here however they can't prove these messages were harmless.... so if large trades seem to be related they could have a huge issue. sounds like the silver deally-o we had a few years back A BofA trading desk manager instructed his staff to delete their messages off of other chat apps and switch to signal so that their messages would be locally encrypted and automatically deleted… So, yeah, he was aware of the requirements. From what I read he was let go following the fines… You’re wrong about a lot. Brokers can (and, at times, must) talk about pending deals with clients and outside parties. That’s how syndicates work. A secondary offering is a pending deal. Gathering indications of interest from clients is a matter of course. It can be impossible to retain communiques via third-party apps. Third-party apps can be leaky. That’s not right. Work in banking, you can talk about anything to coworkers you just have to use firm provided messaging apps so if the SEC audits the bank/ individual they can turn over all communications. The bank doesn’t have access to your personal text messages and people were texting about work to coworkers which is the issue Why is it so common here for people to just so brazenly speak definitively on something when they clearly have no idea what they’re talking about? What are you citing? What regulation did they violate? /s is for pussies Sure just like Trump's claim stealing top secret nuclear info was just a storage problem. racket fee No no... In the Mafia we call it a vig. My share of your money. Interest if you will. as the winners of the class war that is their right. Elaborate Lol you have no reason to believe that. There’s absolutely no evidence that there was insider trading. They were talking about work stuff over text And what kind of measurable profit do you think came from that? haha... banal They can make criminal referrals to the Southern District AG, they choose not to. They got karma out of it. They don't need evidence when they have rhetoric. did you read any of the orders? The fine should be after the money profited is forfeit. I want a piece of this corruption. Have you not seen how Congress has acknowledged but failed to address that they (many, not all) have been buying stocks using insider information and are immune to the rules that should apply to everyone? What do you think they were discussing, how to play tiddlywinks? No dude that's exactly what they were doing, otherwise why were they deleting the evidence? Also you don't get fined over a billion for a simple book keeping error, it was definitely insider trading. I guess with messages deleted we will never know. Have you read a history book or newspaper from the last 20 years? The SEC has a very well known history of doing this stuff. The 2008 financial crash is perfect example, not a single Bankster was charged despite criminality that was off the charts. This kind of stuff is standard operating procedure for them. They basically give these companies token fines with nondisclosure agreements keeping the real crimes sealed. How would they calculate? All the convos were deleted. Agreed though. They were discussing deals they were working on and clients they were working with. I’ve done the same thing and I’ve seen other people do it too. There is actual work done and discussed at these banks. It is 1000x more likely that it was mundane work talk than it was some diabolical insider trading scheme. No one got fined over a billion because it was negligent recordkeeping, not the scam of the century. It was $1.8B across 16 firms, fined by 2 regulators. you are comparing that to this? Unless they are also hiding the income than there is a record of the transactions. Otherwise it's tax fraud also so jailtime should be on the table. Sounds like you sir, has had a job. 99.9%+ chat about mundane shit using these apps because they’re convenient, not because blue horseshoe loves anacott steel… What's a little insider trading between friends? Hard pass dude. You probably work for one of the firms in question. They can show the income but my point is how can you tie the deleted conversations to the income? On the balance sheet it just looks like income right? Id imagine there would have to be a way to tie the specific texts to specific trades so the regulators could say ok these texts directly resulted in a profit of xxxxxx for this bank. Maybe I’m way off, trying to think of it logically given that most of the conversations don’t exist The SEC doesn't need text messages to nail people for insider trading. They have access to the actual trade information. If people from the banks in question were trading on deals that they advised on, they SEC would easily be able to connect the dots. This is more about the SEC getting annoyed that financial institutions have been told for years to get their employees to communicate about business exclusively on devices that are connected to recordkeeping systems but continue to fail to do so. Ok man, be a QAnon conspiracy theorist, but your take is fucking dumb 1.8 billion dollars is the amount accounted for. That should be forfeit to the sec. Next fines on top. Deleting the conversations should be illegal on a whole nother level... jail is the answer to that. Gawd you are stupid, QAnon conspiracies are stuff like Lizard people secretly rule the earth not Wall Street fat cats doing insider trading. Fact is the SEC and the Southern District are very reluctant to bring any charges against Wall Streeters, so if they fined these companies it was because they destroyed info on insider trading not because of a paperwork issue. That may be the official reason but it sure as hell isn't the real reason. The 1.8 billion is how much the 16 banks were fined, combined, not how much they all made off the shady dealings. As far as i can tell by the article." Billionaire Facing Record Tax Fraud Case: The IRS Is Being Mean,2057,https://www.thedailybeast.com/billionaire-robert-brockman-facing-record-tax-fraud-complains-that-irs-is-being-mean?source=email&via=desktop,"Make sure to properly report your Robinhood gains fellas. -It’s not fair, lawyers for the billionaire Robert Brockman told a district court in Texas this week, as their client faces the largest tax fraud case in American history. In a new legal filing, the attorneys declared it “unreasonable” that Brockman’s retirement pay is being automatically routed to the government and that a lien on his former residence is preventing his wife from selling the property. Brockman, accused of a “decades-long scheme” to hide $2 billion in income from the IRS, offered to place $1.45 billion into an account or accounts in the U.S. to be used for future tax liabilities, if the government agreed to ease some of the restrictions he is facing in exchange. His attorneys have separately been arguing that Brockman, 80, is not competent to participate in a criminal trial because of worsening dementia.- IRS shouldn’t start auditing anyone making less than $250k a year until they audit everyone making more than that… Fuck this guy. Runs the worst rated company in America based on Glassdoor review “Reynolds and Reynolds” Truly a piece of shit scum and all of his staff and customers hope he dies Well should’ve have not done it while he was in the right state of mind We need to audit more billionaires Being mean is job #1 for the tax man. ""being mean to me."" Are you 4? Let me fix it, “oligarch facing record tax fraud case…” Are we supposed to feel sorry for this fella? Be meaner Get the fuck over it, pay your fair share and be happy this ain’t France a few century’s ago Let him 🔥 To be fair, the IRS IS mean American oligarchs you mean Take the money due and send him to the old folks home. Make him do needle point like the rest of us. I just showed this article to my partner who does estate planning for ultra high net worth individuals. She raised her eyebrows for a second ""no i haven't seen it"", then instantaneously she was like ""oh that jack ass....pay your taxes asshole"" ……eat the rich….. Isn’t that what the judge says to us common plebs I find you guilty of whatever as to make an example out of you for other people not to do that [deleted] Am I the only guy thinking ""hey, good for that guy for getting away with it for so long!"" That's the best way to live! I'd love to be 80 before the IRS realized I owed them a fuckton of money. Like, fuck them, lol. Dudes 84 years old? And he agreed to pay most of the fine? Leave him the fuck alone, goddamn that’s a bad thing to do!!! Keep him out of jail and let him pay the rest in payments by god! Let’s go after everyone easy to vilify and give more power and wealth to the government. What could go wrong? Better yet, it’d be even better if we only had one party and a system where we could easily report our neighbors or anyone we might suspect of going against the cause. In his defense, he claims the IRS is “unreasonable”, not mean or unfair - that is what the article is saying Big ole meanies Time to call 🎵 _Optima Tax Relief_ 🎵 I want to enjoy a life of wealth and pay later when I’m eventually suffering from dementia and won’t know the difference too! Screw him too. A federal grand jury returned an indictment alleging that Brockman, the CEO of software company Reynolds & Reynolds, engaged in tax evasion, wire fraud, money laundering and other crimes as part of a nearly 20-year scheme to conceal around $2 billion in income from the Internal Revenue Service and defraud investors in his software firm's debt securities, federal authorities said in a release. The 39-count indictment — filed earlier this month in the Northern District of California and unsealed this week — reads at times like a screenplay: Allegations against Brockman include operating a complex web of foreign companies and bank accounts; using unreported taxable income to buy a luxury yacht called ""Turmoil;"" creating an encrypted email system to communicate with employees using code names such as ""Bonefish"" and ""Snapper;"" asking a money manager to attend a ""money laundering conference"" under an assumed identity; and persuading that same money manager to destroy documents and electronic media using shredders and hammers. Ha, nice of you to assume we have gains [deleted] Gains? You have RH gains? Robinhood and other brokers are a scam, DRS your shares people. I think you mean Robbing Hood* It’s a sea of red Oh, thanks. Should I also report my wife’s boyfriend’s gains? Oh man interesting how he was good on his yacht the other week but now suddenly the dementia is so bad 🤔 Based The only problem with this is people who can hide their income with write offs. You’d have to also audit anyone with no income but high net worth. Sweet! I'm not going to pay taxes ever again! Too busy picking pennies while the bills fly away We need to audit all* billionaires. No. Define fair share? How much did you pay this year? I don’t think your comment says what you wanted it to say Why do you think this is socially acceptable to say but not the other way around? Yes. Just let him throw money at his own self created mess to make it go away. Hey, you gotta report losses too As your wife’s boyfriend i concur /s You forgot to turn the phone upside down. DRS? He seems to be clear of mind when it comes to evading taxes. Reminds me a Harvey Weinstein, as soon as he’s caught he became an invalid. Also it would take forever. With how complicated billionaire finances are the IRS would have a backlog of work until the end of time Edit: audits take a long time. This is just an observation, not an opinion Along with auditing every politician (Pelosi and the Krooked Krew) Fund the tax police “Fair” share or not, he’s an admitted tax cheat. Lock him up. The amount we agree to as a nation, ie don’t commit tax fraud Your fair share is the legal requirement for you to pay every year. Evading taxes means you are not paying your fair share. As societal needs and your personal income change, your fair share may go up or down. Defining it this way removes the arbitrary ""fair share"" vs ""paying too much"" political discourse. Instead, it is far more productive to argue why taxes should be increased or decreased based on the services society needs. Billionaires’ fair share is far more than someone making minimum wage. To whom much is given, much is expected. Also…the legally required amount They do say it the other way around. Quite often. Among other things that are said This is one thing i have no fucking idea how to do. This year I was actually able to put some count aside, and now I don’t know how that’s going to change my taxes…. How do I turn off screen rotation? puts the shares in your name with the stock's transfer agent so that you know you actually own them, rather than the DTCC. Also means they can't be lent out without your knowledge for shorting. Supposedly only margin accounts do this but I trust wallstreet just about as far as a I can through it. DTCC is a huge scam And as soon as they get released, they get better. Some of the only people ever to recover from neurological disorders and dementia are tax evaders who got caught. He had complications from [penis gangrene.](https://www.sciencetimes.com/articles/26056/20200615/graphic-evidence-reveal-convicted-rapist-harvey-weinsteins-severe-medical-condition-fournier-gangrene.htm) Super NSFW, but I tried to link to a site that was both reliable and not too full of ads. Do what you will with this info. Are they going to recover more than they pay an auditor? Government money printer go BRRRRRRRR Yea it should be default to do a deep check of any politicians finances to check for corruption. Not sure why that isn't the case. Also need to get the fuck out of anonymous donors and all that superpsac bs Agree but the whole pay your fair share is such a bogus saying considering most people pay close to nothing. Our tax system only effects those of us that have worked really hard to make a better then normal living. I don’t know but I think investopedia can give you some basic info. $3000 in losses can be reported per year, and that gets deducted from your taxable income. TBH it’s probably a negligible amount unless you’re in a high tax bracket. You get credits my dude. Write offs are a thing. I dunno tbh, I just hang myself upside down over the edge of the couch [deleted] Surely, but who’s gonna want to be an auditor for the IRS if they know they’ll never be caught up on their work? We also need to make lobbying absolutely illegal campaigns should be paid with our tax dollars and they better maximize the extremely limited budget we give them you assume poorer people didn't work as hard or harder. Get the fuck outta here. What line of work are you in? The 2 hardest jobs I’ve ever had were working in a kitchen for minimum wage and working construction for $10 an hour. I get paid more now for easier work. The people making <$12,000 a year that you are accusing of not working hard are absolutely working harder than every billionaire in the country. And our country would collapse without them. I agree. I’m also tired of people blaming other for not paying their “fair” share. If they broke the law they should be punished. If they followed the law and the law is “broken”, then change the law and stop complaining when people abide by it. And more importantly, can be used to offset future gain as it carries over into the next year $3000 per year if you don’t have gains. For example I lost $50k in an investment reducing my taxable gains income by that amount. Thank you for making me laugh 😂. Don’t lie to me pls. I’m gonna click but it’s risky where I’m at… ugh here i go Except we don’t give them the budget. We give them the money, and they give themselves a raise and make sure the military can afford the latest and greatest tech to turn middle eastern civilians into skeletons. I guess they still *call* it a budget I never said any of that. I said nothing about poor people I said nothing about hard work. Please do not place words in my mouth. Let me give you an example a family of 5 with a single working adult that makes 300k+ per year pays more in tax then some people will make in a year. That family is still not super wealthy but gets none of the kickbacks that a lot of other peoples do. So when we talk about fair share I think what we really mean is you pay for me. A Reddit Libertarian is not a successful Libertarian. Good rule of thumb when dealing with people like this is to automatically assume that you're talking with a teenager. This guy taxes What happened- how was it? No raises should be given to them at all The public will be the one to decide if they even deserve a raise > Agree but the whole pay your fair share is such a bogus saying considering most people pay close to nothing. Our tax system only effects those of us that have worked really hard to make a better then normal living. ... > Our tax system only effects those of us that have worked really hard to make a better then normal living. ... > only effects those of us that have worked really hard ... > only Maybe you don't understand how words work? Im willing to bet this dude doesn't make over $300,000 and doesn't have a family of 5. Vast income inequality is also at play here, many people pay very few taxes because they earn too little even for jobs that are essential. If they earned more they would pay taxes from the extra income. It was a link to tubgirl Where? In your hypothetical post-revolution fantasy where the people have any say in the process at all? The government would have tanks rolling through the streets of their own cities before they’d actually let us fuck up their racket. You ever wonder why the country where citizens can own guns spends more money on their military than half the world’s countries combined? We still have a chance to overthrow our own IS govt 🤣" "Kodak is reportedly under SEC investigation after its stock price exploded more than 2,757%",1962,https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/05/business/kodak-sec-investigation-trnd/index.html,">The Securities and Exchange Commission is reportedly investigating how Eastman Kodak received a a $765 million loan from the US government to help make drug ingredients, according to the Wall Street Journal. >Last week's surprise announcement sent Kodak's shares soaring -- as much as 2,757% -- and sparked heavy trading volume for the largely forgotten company. Questions also arose about executives, including Jim Continenza, Kodak's (KODK) executive chairman and CEO, receiving stock options on July 27, a day before the loan announcement. >Regulators are reportedly investigating why Kodak announced the loan on the day prior to the official announcement, which sent shares 25% higher. The Journal said a local TV station in Kodak's home of Rochester, NY, published a media advisory of the upcoming announcement. >The Journal noted the investigation is at an ""early stage and might not produce allegations of wrongdoing by the company or any individuals."" The SEC did not immediately respond to a request for comment. SEC reaches its conclusion : it is what it is. LOL I remember when everyone said how shady this was when first revealed all the heavily upvoted financial “experts” jumped in to defend Kodak and explain how this is “normal” and “no big deal”. It was a sketchy and abnormal situation no matter how you try and paint it. Funny enough this is the 3rd time on Reddit where I’ve seen so many people jump to defend shit like this and tell everyone who dares to question the timing of it all how stupid they are. Probably more than that, just what I noticed. Convertible bondholders coverted and now there will be 60% more outstanding shares than they started with. This thing is probably going to a buck. r/wallstreetbets what the fuck did you guys do now? Something fishy fishy here. I thought Kodak went the way of the buggy whip. Insider trading phosho on this. Wish I was in the club. Never saw a stock jump like this did the other day. [deleted] Who would have thought 🧐 Insider trading was written all over this . I mean come on what a fuckin coincidence a day before you get stock options the next day 2000% increase in value Although I doubt it drove the volume seen last Monday, Rochester local media botched the embargo of the announcement. Guess who from the White House leaked from? mouthy. Good. Don’t worry folks, the SEC is on it! I love SEC Wonder how the American taxpayer will repay the loan, because you know Kodak won’t. Tomorrow’s headline: Duh... Hint: Great time to go big on shorts. Fuck Jay Clayton. Now all they need to do is donate a few hundred grand to Trump's reelection campaign and the investigation will go away and they'll just blame Joe Biden's son just like they do in Russia. No evidence found. I can do the job much faster than the actual investigator. Nothing is going to happen to those people who did the inside trading. They got too much money to just tell you very nicely. Too bad you don’t have the info like them. And then nothing will happen... wash rinse repeat. What wouldn’t Donald do for a not-so-small fee? Business was so good /s they needed a loan. That's when genius investors were convinced that Kodak deserved an even bigger loan. It's a big club, and you're not in it What timing that he was given those stock options a day before it rose 2,757%. Some guys have all the luck! Spiros is running the investigation Dollar Bill is not concerned [deleted] How do people even hear of a company like that getting a loan and manage to take advantage of it in time? I read this in Joe Pesci’s voice. I read this in Donald Trump’s voice. I read this in Mutahar’s voice.. “It’s public information” was all over that thread. Totally neglecting the fact that at one point it was public and at another point it wasn’t and everything about it going public didn’t flow through normal channels so all the early orders should be earmarked for scrutiny They’re defending for two reasons: 1) they got in on it, or 2) they wish they did Regardless of how shady it is it's not a bad idea to have those chemicals manufactured in the United States. It could be beneficial for us Very well said, and I agree. I think people are just terrified to accept the fact the SEC has been paid off by politicians decades before their money even touched the NYSE. That being said, you can still make great money in the stock market as a retail investor until you can escape into the real estate market. This part right here. This is the way Didnt they just switch to be a chemical production company? Invest in KNOW I think it's much more likely it was governmental inside trading than anything. My father in law is high on the pole at Kodak and he was completely in the dark on this. Asking for a friend? Yes previously investments as low as 10 000 have been under scrutiny Depending on how the options were set up, he may not be able to sell right away. I almost bought some, but by the time I clicked the article it was gone, and I was too lazy to buy it. I did sell the 6 shares I have for a small profit. I didn't sell high because I didn't think it would go higher than the initial $14 spike. Hi George. GULP- Elon Musk 😂 I literally busted out laughing reading this. What is your level of certainty? Aren't they the ones responsible for not going after Equifax? Well they did enforce rules against Elon Musk This movie was tremendous. And then when DeNiro tells Pacino that that's what Pesci said, the look of shock on Pacino's face is INCREDIBLE. An Oscar-worthy 5 seconds. Failing to adhere to a media embargo unfortunately is public information. Just poorly disseminated. That said, I doubt thinly veiled ""big announcement"" drove the volume the day before the announcement. But yes, the award of the options isn't unusual, the timing is slightly, but also remember a control person has to go through a scheduled process to sell those same shares. So it's not as if he could be awarded them on Monday and sell them at the high on Tuesday. But there is already companies doing it. Why did we give money to company that's just starting that manufacturing? This is the way > Part of the enthusiasm may stem from the fact that Kodak reportedly aims to make drug ingredients used in the fight against Covid-19, including hydroxychloroquine, a medicine that President Donald Trump continues to tout as a possible treatment even though it has repeatedly failed to show a benefit in clinical trials. Yep. And now [they’re making Trump’s hydroxychloroquine miracle drug. ](https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/opinion/articles/2020-07-29/kodak-stock-surges-on-hydroxychloroquine-trump-loan-robinhood) They've always been a chemical company, that's what film photography manufacturing is. ? Correct , he may not have , but I’d still assume he gets some profit even if not right away. Does seem like perfect timing and if not there are some really lucky people out there Hi Tucker I'm Kyle! hI kYle i'M tUcKeR! Me too :-) what are the odds indeed! I am not uncertain “They wouldn’t dare!” That line. Oh boy. If only he knew what they would dare. And DeNiro’s worried anxiety and desperate shushing were so perfectly portrayed. In my experience, options aren’t immediately “vested”. Which means you can’t sell them for quite some time. I was awarded options at the company I worked for years ago. They vested in 25% intervals annually starting after 4 years. So, you had to stay with the company for 8 years until the options were fully vested. Which is why they sometimes refer to them as “golden handcuffs”. Not sure if the CEO at Kodak has his set up the same way. From what I've heard on a BBC and other industry podcasts we don't have enough of that manufacturing done here and it's more important than other types. They are not just starting. Kodak has manufactured chemicals for 100 years, and has had a division of synthetic chemical manufacturing- which even already includes pharma intermediates - for decades. It's my understanding they're making the chemicals the drug is made from, not compounding the drug itself. I was very unclear. They were always a chemical company but now they have deliberatly switched to more chemical production for the Pharmaceutical business. For some reason they never made the switch even though traditional film has been in decline for quite some time now. https://edition.cnn.com/2020/08/04/business/kodak-history-pharmaceutical-production/index.html It's an ETF that follows public SEC insider trading filings (basically if you're a major shareholder of a company or exec, you need to file and make public your stock moves in that company). I’m quite certain there was at least *some* insider trading done on that Monday. I have zero proof, but I would bet some of our elected representatives made out like the bandits they are. Yussssssss This was Kazawitz getting out of Lumathern YES hahaha. That scene!!! Some places do vesting, some don't. The sale is a structured process but the vesting isn't. Look at Musk, he was just awarded shares based off performance. I know his specifics have been reported but I'm too lazy to look it up/read it. But isn't it easier to grant money to someone to expand an existing operation than to start from ""scratch""* *I live in Rochester, I understand the infrastructure is still somewhat here, but the human capital is long gone and a lot of that machinery is already in disarray. My father in law is one of their top engineers, I'm very aware of Kodak capabilities. Eastman chemical hasn't been apart of Kodak for nearly 30 years. Most of the buildings in Kodak park haven't been used or maintained in 20. Furthermore, the human capital in Rochester for those processes is long gone or retired. > For some reason they never made the switch even though traditional film has been in decline for quite some time now I like the company, but they do not have a history of making industry pivots to keep up with industry. They invented the digital sensor for example." Deutsche Bank HQ in Frankfurt raided over suspected money laundering,1935,https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/apr/29/deutsche-bank-hq-frankfurt-raided-suspected-money-laundering,"Again? DB in a nutshell: alright we know we fucked up again, but we’re just gonna pay the fine and keep doing it [removed] In other news, Deutsche Bank warns of incoming recession. Lol! [deleted] They're all laundering money. They should raid all headquarters of all banks. Deutsche Bank should probably be raided twice Again??? Amazing how all these ‘fully audited’ entities seem to keep laundering money. Crypto is the REAL laundering problem though… More like douche bank Well durr? another day, another raid at Deutsche More coverage at: * [Deutsche Bank office searched in money laundering probe (wral.com)](https://www.wral.com/deutsche-bank-office-searched-in-money-laundering-probe/20258101/) --- ^(I'm a bot to find news from different sources.) [^(Report an issue)](https://www.reddit.com/user/MultiSourceNews_Bot/comments/k5pcrc/multisourcenews_bot_info/) ^(or PM me.) Just like the Nazis “Suspected” The whistleblower also found dead. Hmmm Lovely if they found missing rump documents Noooo not Trumps bank hahahaha This smells like TRUMPs Swamp to me! Again never punished for Trumpito shit in USA. Please please please find Trump stuff No way! Deutsche Bank would NEVER do something like THAT! Fucking duh! Ahahahah, i asume they’ll blame crypto for it 🌚 DerrRrr but crypto is evil it needs regulation Durrrrr drumpf durrrr herrr durrr that’s all comments on this Lol no shit Oh noes... what are the odds? Ya don’t say. I heard HSBC is hiring 💸💸 Laundromat HQ It’s fine we know it’s an accident Deutsche bank has always had a knack for pulling shit like this. It’s almost as if they enjoy. Classic Deutche…!!! More!!!!! Bankers are the real public enemy. Nothing especially corrupt about DB. They are a bank. They will just learn from this, again, pay a fine, and get right back to it using the new knowledge that got them caught. Pharma, banks, insurance, government, big tech, investment firms…. Sound like we can’t trust the pillars of society are they slow learners? Suspected oolololololil So, just a regular Tuesday then? Wow, I didn't see that coming - noone. At this point they might as well put the police station in the same building... Lol, my first reaction too, I checked the article date to make sure they didn’t post an old article….. it’s current Thought this was a repost too. Nope, it’s new allegations. How is DB allowed to continue operating, they are just a straight up criminal enterprise at this point. They will pay a fine and do it again. All the top companies like them do it year in year out. Exactly. I was thinking “suspected? Wasn’t it proven or admitted years ago?” It *is* friday At this point they shouldn’t even lock the doors. Cost of doing business. No fucking way they suicided his father and then him? I used to follow him on Twitter and the amount of time the media played up his drug use was staggering. Guarantee he was intentionally poisoned with Fentanyl, that would be the easiest murder to get away with. bUt wHEre is Hunter’s lAptOP?? Any deposit in any bank is linked to lending unless the bank lends on a mark to market book. This is a stupid link. Doubt it’s a coincidence that the whistleblower died. However, it’s important to note the banking relationships between Germany and Russia due to the natural resources trade (amongst others). Wasn’t deutsche Bank the people who loaned him money for the trump tower and stuff like that? Don't forget, they helped the Nazi's financially during the Final Solution and tried to cover it up What about Jeffrey Epstein? [deleted] Another interesting name associated with Deutsche Bank. Justin Kennedy. Hmmm. Anytime you smell fraudulent $#!\*, tRump's name isn't far behind....as its usually the source of the stench! Has HSBC been raided? Call me crazy but they can both be problems. Serious question: How is crypto good for money laundering? Crypto is literally a public ledger of transactions. Sounds like a horrible way to try to hide the flow of money considering you can follow the chain. NFTs might be good for laundering, but that’s just because it is art. The use of NFTs for laundering would have nothing do with crypto tech specifically. Pretty sure people have been using art to launder forever. Heyooooo! Yep. He can’t get a loan in the US because he doesn’t like to pay up. I wonder if the police have designated parking places at the two towers (Taunus Anlage)? [deleted] Cool. Yay. Yipee. Operating expenses [removed] Yeah, because if trump is a criminal, hunter can’t be one too, because that’s how this works. Edit: Downvoting me because you don’t like what I have to say is very republican of you guys. Truth is truth whether you like it or not. Hunter is a crook and the laptop is real. If you don’t like it, too bad. They were the only bank to give him a loan since no other banks would touch him with a 10 foot pole. And they also employed the son of SCOTUS justice Kennedy, who was allegedly involved with the loans. https://news.yahoo.com/former-supreme-court-justice-son-023053216.html [deleted] They are not struggling to repair anything, their reputation advertising exactly to whom they want it to. Wait, give me a half hour to close my accounts. It's really just art NFTs that are the money laundering problem. Did you miss my sarcasm ? Because i agree with your logic. People seem to forget that enron, 9.11 and so much more happened before Bitcoin was invented, and keeps happening under the ever watchful eyes of the ‘big four’ accounting firms. No need. They are supposed to block the parking lots, anyway. Why go to the amateurs when you could work with DB and get expert help? Investors are demanding hsbc breaks up :P You would think, but no, as it turns out shooting drugs and fucking your friends is a winning strategy! Haha the funny story about that was DB IBD didn’t want to lend to trump either, but DB PB just went “fine I’ll do it myself” Actually bit was the only division to want to work with Trump. Commercial real estate had already rejected him. DBTCA just acts as the universal DB counterparty in the US. They own most of the assets. > It's really just art ~~NFTs~~ that are the money laundering problem. I did miss your sarcasm. A lot of legislation was created in the wake of theae incidents that don't apply to crypto yet “We’ll DP on your money at DB.” .. They’re still workshopping it. Yeah crypto definitely needs some degree of oversight, but when you look at incidents like this, you have to wonder how effective all that post enron legislation truly is in traditional finance." "Fed bans stock trading, restricts other investing activities by top officials",1935,https://www.reuters.com/world/us/fed-bans-stock-trading-restricts-other-investing-activities-by-top-officials-2021-10-21/,"Do congress next. Can we just eliminate every single Fed worker to congressmen to judge to not be able to use confidential information to make their millions into more millions? It seems pretty ridiculous for us to let these politicians like Pelosi to monetize off of her position for legit decades? NEXT UP -- PELOSI & CONGRESS FINALLY JESUS FUCKING CHRIST Daddy Powell is doing more than SEC themselves. Right after an article was published about J Powell selling stocks before the market crash? Looking at you, Congress and Senate 😂 ya will see…. Im sure the FED left plenty of loopholes They already sold and profited now.. haha useless It’s a start, I guess. Now do Congress, and make sure to include family members so they can’t just skirt the regulations. r/StandAgainstTyranny If only we can get the ""elected"" officials in the same boat. Uhuh. Why now? The fact that this wasn't already a thing is ridiculous. Wait you could be a top FED official and trade? My my my… the plot thickens. The article says it bans them from trading single stocks. Can’t they just get a buddy to make a mutual fund for them and trade from within? They got caught. This is to get ahead of it. Wow Finally! But it’s very coincidental that they do this at the top of the market in a period of high inflation that can only be contained by raising rates that will cause the stock market to go down. Literally just an excuse to sell at the top without any red flags in my opinion. Well since doesn’t include Concunts doesn’t really help that much… Futarchy is right there. You people don't get this isn't going to help insider trading. I'm seriously on the side of letting them trade and force them to take economic stake in their policies, but apparently that's crazy. Do citadel next Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight No lobby If anything they should be prohibited from investing in Treasury funds Imagine that. After a few weeks of bad press they made policy changes to prevent further incidents. If only it were this fast and easy to enact across top officials in political roles. praise God there is hope. unfortunately, I feel this will only be a temporary fix though. i’m sure there will be a way for the top officials to still benefit from their decisions. they could just have their family members control a portfolio for them possibly? Removing temptation via regulatory means curtails most corruption. I agree with anyone that upvotes this, just need a few karma lol Now do Congress. Ok so now the wives or husbands do it in their name. Business goes on Yeah ok sure It will probably do them a favour as market crashes. Next up…… Congress but not by senators! There is a flourishing industry finding ways around these regulations. Why insider trading is a Washington DC opportunity for all that are elected to serve and all their lawyers/attorneys that work as their aides, getting their portion of the twenty to fifty million each Senator, Congress Person, and most departments in the government get for their offices expenses. It's a start but what we really need is fair and transparent market for all. Banning PFOF, naked shorting, accurate share counts and not being able to create synthetics, not rerouting retail trades to the dark pools etc. Cool so they just move into crypto and real estate and continue making money with insider info 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 I don’t believe you. Now they hide, better when it was public, I got my stock picks from them ... IIRC Congress needs to do that themselves. How do they not include congress in this? This will never happen as they are in on the scheme. Congress should ban that people in congress and their own families can’t declare bankruptcy on student loans. People of congress and their families are the only ones that can declare bankruptcy from student loans. No lobbying It’s beyond absurd we don’t Prime example: Joe Manchin Someone with their Series 7 is under more scrutiny than a member of Congress. Insanity. They are masters of loopholes and alternate interpretation. You’d have to just stop all forms of income except salary. [deleted] Pelosi is a member of congress and doesn’t need to be referred to separately. Pelosi has actually voted yes on that exact proposition multiple times. Unfortunately the Senate is always full of too many corrupt GOP scum to let it pass. This is what needs to happen (X) doubt McCuntell & McCuntary first … If this had any legs to be something the public would care about for more than an hour you can bet Republicans would say the democrats hate the American economy and only want the taliban to be able to feed their family. And then they'll trot out a government employee in a wheelchair or something and ask him how much it hurts to be so hated by Nancy Pelosi, despite none of it having anything to do with this. What? https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2021/10/18/fed-chair-powell-sold-millions-in-stocks-before-october-2020-tank/amp/ Cringe I mean better that they go through the side door and close it behind them than to just leave it hanging open… good times are over, just protecting them from the fall They're still allowed to invest dingus, just in diversified assets where there isn't as much potential for (even the perception of) abuse. It’s not crazy, it’s utterly insane. Always has been. “We have decided that we are allowed to continue with our insider trading schemes. Nice try plebs.” —Congress Why can’t the supreme court or the President do it? Since it’s such a detriment to society and Congress has no incentive to do so. At least if they make the trades we can see them. If they make it to where they can’t trade then they will only lean on their friends who don’t hold an office position and they will slip profits to them through “donations”. If there is a better solution I would like to hear it. I would rather it be completely transparent then force them to make shifty trades, even though they probably do that still anyways. So it won't happen then? They're corrupt, the lot of them. The fair is barely constitutional as it is, they certainly don’t have an established right to make rules for other branches of government. I have to declare my investments every year. I am a GS-12 human services professional (Counselor). TBF there weren't any notable exchanges in the 1780s. You can find many instances of her (and others) engaging in sketchy trades. [deleted] It's not a competition. They all suck Non-AMP Link: [https://nypost.com/2021/10/18/fed-chair-powell-sold-millions-in-stocks-before-october-2020-tank/](https://nypost.com/2021/10/18/fed-chair-powell-sold-millions-in-stocks-before-october-2020-tank/) I'm a bot. [Why?](https://np.reddit.com/user/NoGoogleAMPBot/comments/lbz2sg/) | [Code](https://github.com/laurinneff/no-google-amp-bot) | [Report issues](https://github.com/laurinneff/no-google-amp-bot/issues) Vtsax returned like 40 percent between when Powell sold and that article got published lol Yep Sure but we have the technology to force them to trade on their beliefs directly. Frankly I think the fed losing money on inflation metrics being wrong would have been great. I'm not even sure why we want there to be a separation of public servants when they can easily do backstage deals. How about I listen to the person with the most financial stake if he's wrong. We have the technology to do this now. It's really not that hard. Utterly insane is what we have now. Senators and federal reserve agents insider trading to me means the bar is on the floor. We had senators front running the covid crash while on record saying it will be fine in a few weeks. I'm simply saying with technology there is absolutely no way to police this. We might as well force them to stake financial exposure to policies directly. There have been a few bills like that over the years, an example that passed being the STOCK Act and one in progress is The Ban Conflicting Trading Act. One other was actually introduced by Ted Cruz several year ago and garnered exactly 0 cosponsors. EDIT: ""like that"" as in restricting trade on themselves. Also, we’re giving ourselves a pay increase, anyone opposed? Too fucking bad, our votes the only one that matters. GG EZ They for $$ on the table. Half of them would stop running for re-election if it was outlawed What happened to that system of checks and balances we learned about in third grade? Supreme court probably could, but it would require a case for them to hear, assuming that was their decision. President could try with an EO, but i'm not sure it would hold up in court. Source: my ass Congress decides if the the president stays president, and the upper courts decide if the president's decision can be done at all. Congress makes the laws. The president just enforces them and the judiciary interprets them. You need to have a law against it in order to make it illegal. The Fed rule is an internal policy, not a law, BTW. Uhhh correct, it probably won’t happen Yeah the federal disclosures are not all all comparable to the oversight of Series 7 holders. But with good reason show your proof No argument there but GQP are clearly winning your no. Competition At least that one can’t take effect until after their next election so in theory they could get voted out for giving themselves too big of a raise. …and the problem is…? Surprisingly the world is more complicated than we learned when we still believed in Santa Claus If anything SCOTUS would be inclined to strike down such a restriction as unconstitutional (adding qualifications not listed) then to enforce it. Can I subscribe to your source? [deleted] Not that I’m agreeing with it, but they have so many incentives to NOT make it a thing. A lot of them run for politics not because they care, but for the money, passing that is them shooting themselves in the foot. Gosh darned skeptics. I bet you don't believe in the incoming MOASS either do you? It’s a 3 lick minimum entry fee Ok. Let me bring up Faux news for the “real facts”. In never never land. Stop being stupid and own up to the fact that the GQP have the corner in corruption market. They are all dirty. But GQP monopolize the hypocrisy and corruption so you have no proof. Lets call her bluff then, Remove the openly corrupt GOP and then we will see if Pelosi is closeted corrupt or not. Same reason why none of them would ever instill term limit laws. Running for political office today is one of the greatest character flaws you can have Is that the cost of entry to the student-masters program? [deleted] [deleted] Exactly that. Then they want to pack the courts and put the president under their thumb. I hate to say it but, checks and balances are no more. Oh good call, I should update that haha Sure sounds like you playing the partisan koolaid drinker. Dirty politicians on both sides. But GQP is definitely the CLEAR winner in the corruption. Lots of facts out there about impeachment/ censured GQP politicians compared to the the left. You can Google it if you care too. Her stock trades don't prove she wouldn't restrict trading on her herself given the option. Her votes prove she would. you wasted your time responding to these people. the good cop, bad cop scheme is insanely effective apparently. Checks and balances haven't been a thing since congress stopped passing laws and allowed any president to just issue executive orders for things that used to require debate and passage by Congress. Ahhh. 3 licks for a financial consultant. Best deal since 2 for 1 blizzards at Dairy Queen. I’m in!! I have a small business. Me and my son. We make between 2500$ and 4000$ a month. What’s the best way to set up taxes and payroll? Been going about 3 years and ready to dip my toes into becoming legal. [deleted] [deleted] Honestly? Get a CPA. Well I don’t get how your animosity is solely directed at pelosi while there is CLEAR evidence that the GQP IS BY FAR WORSE. Everyone of the religious right are crooked and have never done anything for the country expect obstruction and gaslighting. Hypocrites behind words. But keep railing against just pelosi and ignore the corrupt right. And she wants to ban the practice, whats your point? You did see that budget correct ain’t no cpa gonna work for them peanuts. [deleted] [deleted] Lmao. The IRS doesn’t give a shit if you think you can’t afford it. You’re rolling the dice every day you wait. Not to mention your state govt that probably wants its money as well Then Why don’t you call out a Repubic POS. There’s plenty to choose from… She voted to do that and it passed the House, so yes. Time to see who’s available on fiverr.com [deleted] [deleted] Oh god Then peruse conservative and dRUMP subs. Sounds like you will fit right in. Crooks on both sides but GQP is the clear winner in corruption. If you can’t see that your an idiot. Then let us call her bluff by removing the openly corrupt GOP from congress and if she doesn't pass it after that we remove her. [deleted] Lmao, I will vote for the legislators attempting to pass the laws I want to see. It is sad so many people like you refuse to vote in your own self interest because you've been conditioned not to trust the people on your side. [deleted] Lmao, advocating to remove politicians who want to pass laws you want to see is somehow in your favor? [deleted] she outperforms soros, buffet, dalio, pretty much every big name investor, by a lot. you’re either trolling or just retarded. Except actually vote to change the laws? You're so far beyond willful ignorance." Biden asks student-loan borrowers to 'do their part' in preparing for payments to resume on May 1 as pressure for broad cancellation ramps up again,1929,https://www.businessinsider.com/biden-student-loan-payment-may-borrowers-do-their-part-debt-2022-1,"Yep. DNC gonna throw it in the midterms. If student loans are so bad that we need to forgive them, why on earth are we still making them? The system needs a complete overhaul. Student Loan Asset Backed Securities lol Maybe give a break on interest instead of mass forgiveness? That seems more palatable for Washington. Lol, what about his part on promising 10k forgiveness? Make them non interest bearing then The Dems are never going to get reelected with us. **He do be lying though** [Joe Biden Outlines New Steps to Ease Economic Burden on Working People - April 9, 2020](https://medium.com/@JoeBiden/joe-biden-outlines-new-steps-to-ease-economic-burden-on-working-people-e3e121037322) **Forgiving student debt for low-income and middle class individuals who have attended public colleges and universities** I’ve also directed my team to develop a plan to forgive federal student debt relating to the cost of tuition currently held by low-income and middle-class people for undergraduate public colleges and universities, as well as private Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCUs) and private, underfunded Minority-Serving Institution (MSIs). The concept I’m announcing today will align my student debt relief proposal with my forward-looking college tuition proposal. Under this plan, I propose to forgive all undergraduate tuition-related federal student debt from two- and four-year public colleges and universities for debt-holders earning up to $125,000, with appropriate phase-outs to avoid a cliff. The federal government would pay the monthly payment in lieu of the borrower until the forgivable portion of the loan was paid off. This benefit would also apply to individuals holding federal student loans for tuition from private HBCUs and MSIs. This proposal would be in addition to my existing student debt proposals: Immediately cancel a minimum of $10,000 of student debt per person, as proposed by Senator Warren in the midst of the coronavirus crisis. Those earning less than $25,000 per year will not have to make monthly payments and will accrue no interest Those earning more than $25,000 per year will pay no more than 5% of discretionary income toward payments After 20 years, the remainder of federal student loans will be forgiven without any tax burden Those who participate in public service will be eligible for additional federal loan forgiveness, including $10,000 per year of forgiveness for up to five years. I would finance this new student debt proposal by repealing the high-income “excess business losses” tax cut in the CARES Act. That tax cut overwhelmingly benefits the richest Americans and is unnecessary for addressing the current COVID-19 economic relief efforts. …maybe do the part you campaigned on bud. You know who should do their part, business owners who too out PPP loans. **Biden asks poor students to do their parts so his big financial institutions donors can get richer.** There. Fix the headline for ya. I think uncle Biden would have acted by now. I don't see any big actions in his term on student loans. Remember when you voted for Biden because he said he would cancel up to $10k in student debt? Remember when you voted for Biden because he said that student debt is crippling our younger generation, and that he’d work to solve the problem? Remember when Biden said that he requested the DOE to inform him on the constitutionality of relieving $10k in student debt via executive order, and the response was that he could… and he didn’t? 😂 Not possible right to do my part. The government is in the business of student loans. Look up the federal flow of funds pie chart. Look at the revenue they depend on yearly. They can talk about forgiveness but they know they will never do it Bottom line is Biden lied to get votes. And we fell for it Been doing my best to pay down my 350k of government backed student debt and I am happy to say after several years of payments I'm down to just 550k left! [removed] At the risk of getting down voted to hell, and as a fellow borrower, why should american tax payers pay our school bills? [deleted] The simple fact that setting interest to 0, and forgiving accrued interest would allow people to have a shot should be telling to old Joe here. We had opportunity for change, but all his administration has been thus far is trying to go back to a status quo that was pre-Trump. Biden can't get rid of student loans because wall street is leveraging student loan debts (SLABS) like they did with mortgages back in the 08 crash. I’m a fucking teacher, I don’t earn anything to pay back. Get fucked Biden Do YOUR part and cancel the fucking loans When are the Democrats going to figure this crap out? They are going to lose both houses and the presidency in 2024 because of their lack of having a clue. So Biden lied when he was running. Don’t fall for that twice, folks. Do your part poors. The beast is hungry. Can he regulate institutional prices from needing loans. I mean fix the crux first end interest and pay it all back as penance for letting our populaces go uneducated. This is for federal school loans. What about non federal schools loans too? Fannie Mae now Navient and others are running rough-shot and not letting up! “Sorry jack, fuck off.” ""Do their part""? Joe, for God's sake, are you asking them to vote for the GOP? Why doesn’t he do his part and cancel the fcking $10k he promised?! Fuck this guy. Generation civil war ahead. If Millennials get their loans forgiven but GenZ doesn’t. Do our part? You mean like becoming educated members of American society that contribute to the GDP? Investing in American citizens is the greatest way to invest in America and its future. You accomplish that by making sure American citizens are educated and healthy. Can someone kindly enlighten/educate a non-American on the student loan problem? It feels strange to me. So people took out a loan to go to school because school are expensive, they signed the loan contract with the agreed term and interests, and after graduation people get a job and use salary to pay the loan back. If cannot payback, they ask for bank forgiveness and not pay back and that’s it? The thing I’m not understanding as a non-American is that it looks like people has lots and lots of courage to question why their loan won’t be forgave when they are the one owning the money. Did we just get scolded by grandpa Biden? “Hey you kids, quit fartin’ around and do your part. And get the hell off of my lawn!” He is going to have a 1% approval by the end. I’ve done my part. I’ve been fucked over by navient and all the rest. Also: the public dis-investment in higher ed, because POC and women started going to college in droves is reprehensible and should be “evened out” He campaigned on student loan forgiveness, and caved to hedge fund selling SLABS...... Look up what a slab is #dieforthedow Do your fucking part and keep your promise! Cancel $10k. That won’t even offset the interest but it’s what you promised And I ask Biden to do his part in not bothering for re-election. At least their government has trillions of dollars to spend on war Time to do your part Brandon, or just what you campaigned on. Just another lying old corporate sell out Just leave interest rates a 0%, that alone would solve a lot of problems. “Student loan borrowers”? Does he mean students perchance? I don’t want Trump to win but this is how you get Trump to win. Ah yes but corporations that got PPP loans are forgiven after another quarter of profits. GTFO Biden stop hobbling the middle class. From the title, he didn’t do his part Biden played the fuck out of y'all Why is this hard? You ran on this issue, in a position of power to enact it.. do it.. say what you will about Trump, but the crazy MF’R tried or attempted every crazy campaign promise he made.. Biden needs exercise the same vigor or it’s going to be a blood bath come primaries lol VOTE THIRD PARTY. ITS CALLED A VOTE FOR A REASON NOT SRRY FOR CAPS LOCK Lol. I’m gonna do my part by not voting for your joker ass or your fucking party at the national level in the midterms. When you get fucking wiped out, don’t come to my generation looking for a fucking bailout or a scapegoat. You did this to yourself. You’re gonna condemn your party to relegation for an entire generation if you refuse to act on this fucking crisis. Borrowers have had two years to set aside payments while accruing 0% interest. Seems a lot of grads are just bad with money (or don't want to pay — which is very logical!) But the average grad makes $55k and unemployment is around 4%. The only argument for universal forgiveness is stimulating the economy, but that's a blunt tool when it would go to the most well off in society (over the long run). Then there's the argument people who oppose forgiveness are selfish, but it's odd, borrowers aren't advocating for another round of stimulus checks or increasing the safety net for people worse off. They tend to only be vocal about loan forgiveness. At the very least get rid of all federal student loan interest going forward, period. Otherwise you can fuck off. They could forgive all student loans and it still wouldn't fix the problem of tuition. It shouldn't cost $50000 or even $5000 for tuition for an year to any given university. It's a market that needs to be badly regulated. Education and free-reign capitalism are not a good mix. The government would like you all to do your part by paying them back asap and getting as much covid as possible. And so ends any chance of a second term or anything other than the GQP getting the presidency, let alone the midterms. Dammit, there were only a handful of things of he needed to do, but he needed to do ALL of them. I don’t have student loan debt - but all you guys with debt should organize a nationwide strike and just not pay Predictable Biden, you’re an utter disappointment. Millions of borrowers “do their part” to appease predatory lenders and a broken “college industrial complex.” Servicing companies have no role in setting prices Doing my part by not voting GOP in the midterms if the loans don’t get cancelled. Can’t have loans if the entire system collapses So Biden heard the pushback to this plan, waited a week, then said “fuck them kids.” I’m not from the USAbut I wouldn’t be surprised if the concept of University is completely dead in your country by the next generation I will not vote in the next election. I am a single issue voter now. It worked for the pro lifers I’ve been doing my part for over a decade by paying back those loans how about Biden does his part and keep his campaign promise . Deadman as president, man has zero thoughts behind his beady eyes Just lower the interest. And a big “Fuck you!” to you as well sir. > ""As we are taking this action, I'm asking all student loan borrowers to do their part as well: take full advantage of the Department of Education's resources to help you prepare for payments to resume; look at options to lower your payments through income-based repayment plans; explore public service loan forgiveness; **and make sure you are vaccinated and boosted when eligible**,"" Biden said in December. What in the hell does that have to do with loan forgiveness? Cancel student loan debt Debt from loans kept me from going back to school. I don’t have the luxury of saying oh well save up and try again. I have rent, medical bills, living costs, groceries, gas, etc., to pay for in between and the small drops I put in the bucket after a few years is disheartening. I’m just glad I got enough education and a degree to keep my head above water but life really wants to pull me by the ankles and drag me down. So he like just straight up wants to lose the midterms huh Quit giving me less reasons to vote blue BOO No. And I ask for president Biden to do his part… The older democrats don’t know what to do at this point. They are so afraid of losing votes they won’t act on anything as progressive as student loan forgiveness. I’m sure doing it would lose them some votes but I think they’d finally have the progressive vote moving forward. They would also do something good for a lot of people and save them from life of debt. Is this a starship troopers reference? Because it’s not funny anymore especially when he campaigned on a promise he clearly doesn’t intend to keep Everyone should refuse to pay Fucking Christmas gift they said. I didn’t ask for a gift as if it was out of good will. I want action on these fucking interest rates and tuition fees, not a “happy holidays, love joe” I'll try the libertarians this time. Gary Johnson did good work for new Mexico Germany figured out that poor 20-somethings aren’t going to thrive with student debt. America would rather see our young adults paying financial interest than getting a house and starting families. This fossilized corpse campaigned promising $10k in loan forgiveness, he can fuck off. Something I’ve never understood about this idea, and maybe I’m missing something: If we cancelled student loan debt now, what happens for students going to school this fall? Do they still have to take out student loans? If not, how do they pay for college? If they do, how will the student loan industry be affected by the precedent that the President could simply nullify them? Seems like it would make the industry collapse. I voted for you. Now I’m saying “let’s go Brandon” Err… read the room? Let’s go Brandon? Asks us? What about what we’ve been asking you for the last year!? Get rid of this debt for all like you promised then make student loans a thing of the past. No one should need to go into debt to get an education especially to get a job that doesn’t even pay them enough to give the money back. I’ll say it again for the folks in the back; fuck joe biden, don’t pay that shit and hit this country where it hurts. [deleted] I can’t believe people actually feel entitled to not pay a loan they received. It’s incredibly pathetic and sad. Or you pay back what you borrowed and promised to pay back. They teach compounding interest to kids. I paid off my loans i don't want to have to pay off yours. Biden admin just keeps getting worse and worse, am I right? Lol go fuck yourself Biden. I’ve done my part as a good model citizen since I turned 18 in 2010. I’ve been fucked at every turn whether it was my student loans, or my health issues. I’m in a hole for what seems like the rest of my life. I’m not alone there. I’m jaded, and fucking tired of voting for the least smelly pile of shit. I voted for this dude and he has not done a SINGLE freaking thing TO HELP Americans. No underemployment help, no student loan help, nothing different about covid. Things are just as bad if not worse for migrants (not just the ones from Latin America) Ugh where are all the good leaders. Kamala is like hiding…. I never hear anything from this administration as the interest accrues.-- that should be the name of new soap opera !! the issue with the student loans is this.. its the loans themselves. Who else loans money where the vig has to be made monthly or it gets tacked onto the principle ??? it is criminal- it is loan sharking, the fed gov needs purged. There is no loan forgiveness- NOTHING IS FREE kids. NO these loans should not be forgiven, new loans should be restructured to not bury someone in debt for life. Current loans should be paid - period. Its how life works. Hey Biden - do your part and cancel student debt like you promised. And there goes there youth vote. Next up, Trump and family run America like a slush fund just like Putin does with Russia. Do your part - fulfill your fucking campaign promise. Good. Pay off your loans! More coverage at: * [Biden administration extends student loan moratorium (chron.com)](https://www.chron.com/news/article/Biden-administration-extends-student-loan-16732620.php) --- ^(I'm a bot to find news from different sources.) [^(Report an issue)](https://www.reddit.com/user/MultiSourceNews_Bot/comments/k5pcrc/multisourcenews_bot_info/) ^(or PM me.) I mean I got to a point where I can write off the interest so borrowing free money to go to college seems pretty reasonable… but yea you can only write 2500$ a year so you better go somewhere cheap… So many of the people wishing for cancellation made poor decisions, took on more debt to live above their means/take trips abroad/live in better housing. So tired of the whining on this. The real solution is to work at creating more loan forgiveness programs through charity/volunteer/specialized jobs. At least make people earn it. Do your part Biden and deliver on your campaign promises. Telling a generation of people who have essentially gotten nothing but the short end of the stick of economic policy to do their part is completely tone deaf. The hard working immigrant that works construction 12+ hours a day or the single mom with a high school education working 3 jobs to support her kids should not be who pays off the student loans of kids who chose to go to college to get bachelors, masters degrees or even phds. It’s crazy how oblivious this President is to the impact getting that much money in circulation will have. Who the hell is on his finance team? They’re fucking buffoons I’d be storming the Capitol like the Trumpers if I owed >$100k in student loan debt that I had no hope of being able to repay. But then again, I’m not a fucking idiot, so I went to a state school and got a degree that allowed me to actually get a job. So now I have no need to have the American taxpayer bail me out. What i find interesting is the fact that this student loan issue isn't new. Not by a long shot. Still, young adults keep signing on the dotted line, knowing what lies ahead. They're knowingly entering into an agreement that will clearly affect their finances negatively for the next 20+ years, and then blatantly place the blame elsewhere, 5 years later. What's worse, is they jump at degrees that are going to have the lowest ROI. Social Sciences, Anthropology, criminal justice, a language major, Art History, etc. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Parents need to stop letting the school systems raise their children. Their whole upbringing is having false ideals crammed into their heads by educators who aren't invested in preparing them for real life. Parents need to be more involved - especially in the high school years. Colleges need to be forced to trim the fat and offer courses that are going to be worthwhile, and caps need to be placed on what a school can charge for these courses, according to current marketability. Fuck this guy Do not pay. Agreed! Make a plan to pay the loans you voluntarily took out. I don’t care if you were too young to know better and feel like you were taken advantage of. You still signed the papers, mistake or not, and now you need to learn how to resolve the mistake instead of expecting the US government to do it for you. Debt slavery [deleted] Yup. Everyone do your part and lobby your congressional and senate delegations to cancel all student debt. It’s a loan for a reason, hence why I never attended anything more than what I could afford, community college…and trade school at $800 for some classes I literally was making an investment for my future pennies on the dollar compared to what a university would have charged. People seem to have quickly forgotten how bad trump and the gop was… something I thought was impossible. You might not be happy with this guy but the dems are 1000% better than any gop. Not voting is essentially a vote for the gop and it’s scary to see so many people saying that’s what they’re gonna do. Please don’t cancel them. I enjoy watching free riding cretins squirm If they really intend to cancel outstanding student loans, they better have a way to compensate those that were responsible and budgeted to pay their debts off. At the very least, pay back the PV differential between what minimum payments would have been and the loan total. Really not right to punish those that were responsible for their debts. I'd rather bail out hard working Americans who have medical debt or are priced out of their city because wealthy college educated people moved in Cost of college is way too high. Same for peripheral costs like books, etc. It is a racket. Interest rates for college loans border on usury in my opinion. There is absolutely no justification for 8-10% for loans with no way out (bankruptcy for example). I don’t agree with loan forgiveness, though. People signed their loans they are accountable for repaying them. I paid off my loans. I don’t want to pay everyone else’s loans (via taxes). I think the quick answer is adjusting interest rates down to 0 or near 0%. [deleted] If you incur any debt for any reason you need to pay it back.! This means that Biden's personal income depends on it. Speaker Pelosi played the Democrat's hand by her supposition that government officials should be able to trade stocks. There is only one outcome to this. The saddled generation will create a general strike, and rightfully so. This is the eleven o'clock hour of the Tytler Cycle. $10k or I vote red. Not just stay home. In a blue state but very purple county. Very simple. Fuck you Joe. Who’s choice was it to go to college?🤔 I love reading comments by people believing their loans would just magically vanish and all their bad decisions would be fixed. Lolol Biden is a joke. I’m not voting for him again. This was one of my core issues and honestly trump probably would clear $50k loan forgiveness before this dotard does. What a miss his presidency has been to me. 👋 (Other core issues also factor into this) 1000th comment 🎉🎉🎉 If it is one thing you should invest in, it’s your education Good, solid investments take a lot of money and may necessitate a loan. There is nothing wrong with this and it has beneficial purposes. BuT LOaNsEs ShOuLdNt bE tHaT mUcH mOnIeS!¡! Yes, they should; and it’s a free country, so if you don’t like the terms of one loan (or institution, profession, etc.) pick another one. Stop whining about something that is a fairly cogent system when there are much more important causes to put your energy towards. He is right. Laughable to think a magic wand would cancel student debt What an amazing president Waaaaaaaa! I took on all this debt and now I don’t want to pay it back!!!! Waaaaa Bidens fault!!!! Waaaaaaaa! Loan forgiveness should be out of the question. What does need to be forgiven and changed are interest rates/payments. Interest rates should be either zero or pretty close to it when it comes to educational loans… a student that took out a 100k loan does not need to be in debt for 30 f-ing years and end up paying 350k by the time they have finished “paying” off their debt. Now that is gross and fraudulent and scummy imo. But to the people that took out massive student loans and simply/purely don’t want to pay them back- you might want to check yourself lmao. This idea that student loans need to be forgiven is utterly ridiculous Hahahaha goodluck Invest and get another great grandmother. Why is the president being so vague? lol Biden to students: I was the senator for, of and by credit cards, and you think I was going to cancel your debt lol. So do I get a refund check for paying mine off? I hope Biden does the right thing and cancels everyone’s loans, or at least converts them all to 0 interest and only needing to pay the original principal. Buuuuut, the SLAB security is the new mortgage bond, and who doesn’t pay at least something on their loans? As usual, we have a Democratic President who is beholden to banks, and not the progressive agent of change they said they were during the primary. Shocking, shocking that a career politician like Biden would walk back that campaign promise. What’s does “do your part” even mean? They always do their part! They’re always going to collect! Hope everyone is ready for a republican super majority because it’s coming. Fine repay but keep the 0% interest So, what does getting vaccinated and boosted have to do with this? Cancel medical debt first Old person is out of touch, this and the the world ending today on cccpnn He would reeeealy be doing his part if he would make student loans eligible for bankruptcy again. So what happens if all those who owe student loans just won’t pay? Like every.single.person? Pay ya bills kids. No forgiveness. Stop it. You can’t just keep paying everything Joe Those student loans are never going to be forgiven. I don't know why people think it will happen. I would benefit immensely from it but have a firm grasp on reality. Eliminate the interest if you can't Eliminate the debt~! Anyone that works in finance here ever deal with SLABS? Prob better not to mention which bank or doxx yourself in any way but I’m wondering how hard the banks pushed against loan forgiveness? I would imagine with every damn bone in their body. Pushing 2 trillion in loans, even if they forgave $10k a person the number would still have to be astronomical. Personally I think we are going to face a major reckoning from this asset class, I am blown away they even exist but after working on Wall Street for 15 years I suppose I’ve seen it all. For those of you who don’t know (which I do believe to be very few here) SLABS are Student Loan Asset Backed Securities. That’s right, they figured out how to trade that paper too. https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/081815/student-loan-assetbacked-securities-safe-or-subprime.asp In case you're a nervous, indebted student- not to worry, this has been the plan all along. There is no point in risking a ""what have you done for me lately"" mid-term apathetic voter base- instead it's best to sweat you out, make sure you know who your daddy is- so long about the time you are shitting yourself with stress, _then the student debt relief comes_. Think about it- if you're going to spend 1.9T, it better damn well buy yourself another 2 years of power in the Senate. So sit back, relax, and spend some cash elsewhere- things are going to work out just fine. Well, Biden is sure doing his part to make sure the Republicans win the next couple election cycles. This statement is infuriating. I don’t really believe student loan debt should be forgiven, but not sure Biden should be shooting him self in the foot like this. Maybe they should just stop giving them out to everykne Another one of those switch of hands business and government do, also knows who will be left holding the bag. . Over a trillion dollars in student loan debt ? So over a trillion dollars transfer to higher education then? People borrowing more than they can afford. Fair enough. So don’t guarantee loans. People have to get loans based on credit worthiness. Then what? Mass closures of mediocre schools? My question is how did we get here in the first place? Seems like a lot of problems where suppose to be solutions at first. I worked for business person and for the life of me he was master at schemes. He called it rationalization. Basically I feel we are at the end of one those schemes. He could “do his part” and follow through on a promise. [deleted] As a democrat … right now LGB doesn’t sound so bad!!! Oof. Bababa stupid college kids who thought Dems gave a fuck. They got your vote and no refunds! #Citizens will revolt. Should just compromise and agree to an interest rate reduction. Total racket The student debt crisis would likely collapse markets if there is a mass default. I bet they keep kicking the can down the road and extend the payment date. Same with raising interest rates, which would instantaneously collapse markets as well. They will keep extending the date, instead of the 4 rate hikes they announced previously. The Fed has literally backed themselves in a corner. Damned if they do, damned if they don't. Whether they crash markets now or later, markets will crash. Meanwhile, Russia and China have been dumping USD, stock piling Gold and are set to release a CBDC. Fed machine go BRRRRRR... GLTA Sounds like he’s going to cancel them after asking them to make a good faith effort. Is anyone happy in life? Has anyone ever been happy in life? It’s just “fuck you!” and “no, fuck you!” and “lazy fuck!” And, “no you’re a fat fuck!” Etc it would sure be nice to have discussions on these topics without immediately resorting to name calling… yes, I am guilty of this but I’m trying to get better. There has to be a solution that benefits all parties if we bothered to try for one Trust me, I don’t want the other guy, but Big Daddy needs to fulfill the promise if not for all, some. A good start is to forgive the subsidized loans for which you had to qualify as low income to receive. I’m just gonna ask… did anyone actually believe him when he made that campaign promise? It was a very obvious lie. Dude has been in politics for how long now? If that was really something he was all that interested in he would’ve spoken up about it when he was in Congress or VP. If it sounds too good to be true it usually is. Hahahhhhahhah!!!!!! At some point Brandon fans are going to have to admit that they were lied to and admit that those of us who said “he’s lying” during the election were correct. He is doing the same to the legal weed and BLM crowds. Brandon sucks. He has always sucked. He has a nearly 50 year history of sucking. His only association with Obama was a delegated mainstream babysitter appointed by the party masters back in the day. Buyer beware? Jesus... he literally says this when they've written off and forgave 600 billion in PPP for rich small business owners. Do your part? Aren’t their wages garnished with debt even death cannot expunge? Now I know this dude is tone deaf. [deleted] They want us to think there is a side to choose!? There are no sides! Just we the people vs the overpaid under qualified baby rapers! Do my part? More like give the government the crumbs you need to survive because we promised you a lifestyle your whole lives that no longer exists because America outsourced everything in the 80s to now Do their part to give their earnings to the 1% underwriters of their loans. Who’s “lying’ with Biden”? Doing their part…which is the pearl clutching bystanders letting the right take the blame for all the bad shit It’s almost like we want the GOP to win Everyone agrees; loans must be paid off by loanee. [deleted] How do the Democrats even benefit from paying off everyone’s student loans. “I paid off your loans, vote for me”. “Uh, thanks but why. What are you going to do for me.” “Well, I paid off your loans.” “Yeah, that was in the past. Thanks for that. What are you going to do now in the future?” “Uh, pay your loans… again…?” “Actually it kind of sounds like you’re going to raise my taxes and since I don’t have student loans anymore I’m starting to care about such things. I might just vote Republican this time. Thanks though.” That’s the structural problems the Dems always have. The Republicans are easy. They just want to block what the Dems want to do. But the Dems always have to say “for my next trick…!” eventually without an end. He’s gone deaf. I don’t get it. Why? The GOP is blocking student loan forgiveness. If the GOP wins that would be a sign that the voters don’t want forgiveness (at least that it’s not a priority) Why would student loans win them the midterms? There's more voters than just people with student loan debt. Like....a lot more. Midterms always flip the party in control. This is the theory of Surge and Decline. I hope his plan is to make us sweat postpone payments until the midterms and cancel for votes! Probably not but one can hope. But first, they will get rid of the filibuster [deleted] [deleted] Imagine a system that lets you take out hundreds of thousands in debt with absolutely no guarantee that you’ll ever make enough to get out of debt or what’s more, contribute to economy growth in your lifetime. I remember when my last school hired a bigwig former corporate type to run things. He of course hired his former colleagues as middle managers, who can’t work without massive teams of people, who were then subsequently hired. In 3 years the administration exploded and along with it the tuition in direct proportion. Within 6-7 years came the glam housing, and the gyms, and the over priced extended campus architecture for the glorious on-campus studio spaces, exhibition halls, and auditoriums. What was once a world renowned professional finishing school for designers became a puppy mill for overseas elites with minimal talent and deep deep pockets. Tuition alone 2x while I was there, and is now nearly 2x from there. 4yr degree for $300k all costs, for an entry level job that might pay you $50-$60k There’s a time and a place for student loans. It shouldn’t be every time and every place. Because colleges and lenders are making huge profit margins. The discussion is always focused on forgiving but not how these institutions are financially taking people to the cleaners. Yeah, I can't support student loan forgiveness without also reforming university financing so we aren't in the same situation in 10 years again We should all quit The reason they won't forgive them is because wallstreet has packaged them into securities called SLABs like they did with home mortgages back in 2008. So if they are forgiven then those securities become worthless, this would cause massive margin calls on big banks and hedge funds and tank the stock market as they would be forced to sell their positions to cover their margin requirements (loans). SLABs are used as collateral to maintain these loans with a drop in collateral they have to repay the loans ​ This is why they made student loan debt not eligible for bankruptcy, with no ""defaults"" you don't have the issues that caused 2008 crash. They don't think they're bad since the government makes bank on them. The Democrats were just pandering to voters as usual and their naïve yuppy audience ate it up as always. Soon we go back to a GOP white house, thanks Democrats. Because big finance uses these loans as collateral. https://old.reddit.com/r/Superstonk/comments/ros6ii/student_loan_asset_backed_securities_slabs_the/ Exactly. Forgiving loans does nothing to keep the cost of attending University more reasonable. Quite the opposite. Allow them to default and basically the cost eventually goes down. People stop overleveraging to go to a ridiculously expensive school. I mean ever since 2012 when the DOE killed privatization of them its become a main source for the gov to make some income cant imagine the gov just willingly absorbing the debt It’s the only way I am going to be able to pay for college, but I picked a good major and will be able to pay mine off. Tell your kids to go to a tech school and become a plumber, programmer, or machinist. Not a carpenter or electrician.If you choose plumber, be your own boss. There you go making sense again The loans themselves aren’t bad. The people taking them out with bad or no plans to pay them back are bad. Sorry that creative finger painting degree for 90k didn’t work out…. [deleted] That doesn’t sound profitable No, the system is fine. People just need to stop whining and keep paying. Everyone knows this is the problem. I often see this talking point as diverting attention from loan forgiveness. So that kids continue to be fresh meat for the army, the army continues to get the theee digits Billion dollars budget it gets while sending kids to get limbs cut off or die on war that serve no purposes for them or their family. Keep education costly so the army becomes the only option A good point. It just isn’t a good idea to forgive all the loans now like that is fair and equitable to everyone. Give loan payers a tax break or something. Ironically I also have like 2 months of payments is all left, so I am biased. SLABS Because they're not bad for lenders lol Amen! 🙌 I 100% agree. The cost of education does not mirror the ROI for most majors. The US can certainly take a page out of the EURO book on this one. Fuckin eh hahahha Return the SLABS or suffer my curse… Wait... I've seen this one before! These exist, btw. What about them? The SLABS market is comprised of two types of underlying collateral: FFELP loans and private credit. The latter is ~34% of the market but 50% of new issues, and includes refinanced or consolidated student loans originated by private companies. PSL ABS wouldn’t be impacted by any type of forgiveness; it would grossly unconstitutional for the government (Congress or the President) to simply “disappear” private debt it’s not involved with. FFELP loans haven’t been made since 2010, but legacy FFELP ABS (and new ABS packaged from old loans) make up the majority of the market. These are also private loans but have third-party credit wraps (ie, guarantees) that are reinsured by the US government. Wraps cover 97-100% of principal and interest, well within the 5% overcollateralization cushion built into the typical SLABS structure. For forgiveness to affect FFELP debt, it would either have to be legislated (not done through executive action) that the government step into the guarantee to retire the debt, or that these loans can be refinanced with direct government borrowing. Either way, other than early payment (not considered a good thing), ABS investors would be made whole. Interestingly, forgiveness at the $10k level would likely be credit-accretive (good for ratings) of FFELP ABS because obligors with <$10k debt tend to be of lower credit quality—higher proportion of dropouts. It would also shift the overall FFELP loan pool towards graduate school debt which is typically better-performing. So debt forgiveness would overall be neutral or more likely beneficial to the ABS market. The recent ratings downgrades are entirely driven by COVID forbearances / IBR payment reductions, not fear of forgiveness. Also: if this is a reference to the Wall Street Bets… contention that “the market needs student loans as ABS collateral”… I dunno what to tell ya, SLABS are like 13% of outstanding ABS paper and 2-5% of annual issuance (and that total doesn’t include any kind of MBS). Can I buy some Student Loan Default Swaps? Yup SLABs! I like the sound of that. Should be a bigger hit than CDS (Credit Default Swaps). This The issue is that would create a huge hole in the budget. Part of the problem is that for budget purposes more student loans create more revenue based on projected interest payments. It would probably require the government to cut spending elsewhere to reduce the budget deficit, and nobody in either party wants spending cut for their “thing.” Easier to just continue railing about how Biden could forgive the loans by executive order but doesn’t because he’s a big meany pants party pooper. [deleted] I always thought your interest should be capped after a certain point. As someone who disagrees with outright forgiveness, the interest rates are criminal and should be legislated away. Get your words straight, Jack You believed that? >Make loan forgiveness work **for public servants** by creating a new, simple program that offers $10,000 of undergraduate or graduate student debt relief **for every year of national or community service**, up to five years, and by fixing the existing Public Service Loan Forgiveness program. https://joebiden.com/joes-agenda-for-students/ I'd be owed 6k then I'm ok with that. Unless that's not how it works. They fuck up their re-election chances. Every. Fucking. Time. Edit Ok reelect GOP and watch them flees you again The way this plans to pay for it is by repealing a section of the CARES act, which can't be done by the president and would not pass with any Republicans It's like he did a complete 180 from this plan. The plan even had a specific way to pay for it all. I just love seeing all these posts from those who didn’t understand a man whose in politics for over 50 years and changed nothing for the better expecting him to follow through on a campaign pledge lol How many of those mf’ers got their loans forgiven essentially immediately? Dont take a loan out if you dont like the terms. Since none of you grasp that concept I definitely say you got ripped off for whatever “education” you got at school. I want my credit card debt wiped away because the interest is to much even though i agreed to it Remember when the alternative was worse? I knew he wasn’t what I wanted, but he’s what I got. When your options are shit and shit, you choose the lesser shit OVERTURN CITIZENS UNITED / SUPPORT RANKED CHOICE VOTING. No one voted for Biden for any of that. They voted against Trump. I just voted for Biden because he wasn’t Trump. I cant find where he promised to forgive $10k? Could you help me find that press release or speech? [deleted] Pepperidge Farm remembers… [deleted] BWAHAHAHA a career politician follow up on a campaign promise omfg you really did get ripped off lol. Brandon been in politics over 50 years he fooled all you lol. Don’t worry he dupped the potheads too lol. Think joey who wrote drug laws and DA harris gonna not feed the industrial prison complex industry people just like they feed the bankers students lol but noooo Orange Man Bad lol I’d rather provide economic stimulus for the future generation than line up Lockheed Martins balance sheet Based. I don’t think anyone should pay for anyone’s debts but that’s just my opinion. Do I think colleges should charge the insane amount that they do? Absolutely not. I forewent college for years to work full time and save money. Went back and got my associates and intend to go back again once the virtual class bullshit ends. I have zero student loan debt and stable savings. Meanwhile friends from high school went to college out of state racking up six figure debt from classes, textbooks, dorms, and even meal plans. Those friends now have a leg up on me in the labor market because they CHOSE to bury themselves in debt. To expunge all their debt would be a slap in the face to those who made alternative choices. I am open to the idea of getting rid of their interest, but at the same time struggle to grasp why anyone would pay back a loan that didn’t accrue interest. What about medical debt? People don’t choose to have cancer yet become burdened for the rest of their lives. Because a lot of the business sector demands degrees. The high interest rates have long been preditory. Higher ed is the only way to ensure the country can compete with other advanced nations in the future economy. -someone who has 0 student loans I'd rather my tax money go to helping people that need it because they didn't understand how little college degrees pay and how much you have to go in debt for them, rather than donating it to the mega corporate warlords. Cutting the military budget by 25% and reallocating it solves an incredible amount of problems in this country. [deleted] Because people forgot that if you borrow money you actually have to pay it back. Sad when people do not understand basic contracts [deleted] Just like healthcare this seems to be a very American only problem. Which is to say it’s a manufactured problem. So there’s literally no good answer and if you want education guess what you’re gonna be a debt slave for the next 30 years. As somebody whose federal tax bill each year is approximately equal to the median household income of the US: because it’s good for the nation and we all benefit from a more educated populace whose income isn’t suppressed by debt right out of the gate when most of them are at their most financially vulnerable. Is sad you have to point out “getting downvoted to hell” it’s a good question that no one really thinks about as long as they get what they want. These big issues still linger because there isn’t a black and white answer like people make it seem. You like a growing economy right? Why do we subsidize anything man? Because a more educated populace = better paying jobs = higher wages = more tax revenue in the long term They shouldn’t. A lot of things shouldn’t. But that’s not how our society is setup so that’s not the point. So while we’re giving people tax breaks for being able to afford a mortgage, or for deciding to birth a child, why not to educate our society? Decreases household leverage, increases household net worth, increases household savings and/or consumption. In general, it’s good for the economy and a boon for all Americans Why should american tax payers pay for destroying the climate? Because we’ve been doing that for decades. There are a hundred worse things we’re paying for with our taxes. Student debt cancellation is a massive investment in the country’s future. We shouldn’t. I’m all for helping people in need. Whether or not they have outstanding student loan debt should not matter. So, if we want to help people in need and stimulate the economy, let’s just give a check to everyone making below $X. Otherwise, pay for what you buy. Because decent people care about the education of the people less fortunate than us. I went to a school with a great reputation, got the most valuable degree they offer, plus a second major, and after a year I was able to get a well paying job for someone with my resume. Even with that job, I don’t have nearly the economic prospects of previous generations, mainly because all of my excess $ will be sent to my loans for the next 7 years. If not for my large sum of loans, I would be saving that money to eventually start my own business. If not that, I could at least save up for a small starter home. Neither of these possibilities are feasible for anyone in my situation. If people like myself are able to save up, make investments, start businesses, start families, that feeds the economy enormously in the long run. Instead, our excess wealth is sucked up by loan servicer who offer nothing to the borrower once the education has been completed. This system is killing the economic future of our nation. Loan forgiveness is only one piece. Also, in the case of this administration, it’s one piece that they did promise to their constituents, so it’s reasonable for those constituents to demand it be addressed They shouldn’t. This x10000 Local public schools are funded by property tax. I understand it's a municipality and state system, but why not extend higher education as a right and not treat it as a privilege? It's expensive to subsidize loans for students, but in the long run the added economic growth that comes from a smarter work force on top of the future income tax rev etc etc. Higher edu is disgusting bureaucratic. It needs to be cut down. Not it's funding! But it's red tape. Endowments are at all time highs. The money is there, but wall Street securitized the system already. Now all they can do is let the debt shrink as inflation technically benefits borrowers. It also makes the debt cheaper to buy back on the future They have a choice to have the bill paid for by the government; join the military or ROTC program. They rather take the shortcut and ask for a handout instead. you're right, 18 year olds that were told their whole lives that college degrees are necessary to succeed so they don't become ""that blue collar person over there"" signing up for lifelong crippling debt without understanding the repercussions on the HOPE that the end up in one of the higher paying professions at some point in life. Remember, our parents didn't have to deal with this because higher education was cheap. They couldn't reasonably prepare us for it because they had no experience. It's been a sham since the beginning. I paid almost $200k at a PUBLIC UNIVERSITY for 9 semesters of undergrad. Fortunately I had scholarships and grants so I only had $40k in debt when I finished not counting another 50-60k in the parent plus loan bullshit that also exists. I have done very well for myself and it's still been incredibly depressing watching tens of thousands of dollars continue to go to loan companies after getting over $100k in scholarships and grants... Because they couldnt figure out over multiple years that the contract every student signed because fucked them due to the lack of due diligence. I could understand a reduction but to saddle tax payers with all of the debt, is unrealistic. Whats next? not paying your internet cell credit mortgage or car payments because you didnt like the monthly inconvenience. Don't worry, you wouldn't even notice. How do I know? Because the same amount handed out in stimulus checks through the pandemic would be enough to clear 80% of borrowers student debt. The stimulus checks have not affected my tax rates in the slightest. The governments budget is so astronomical. The only way your life is going to change is that you might see an economic boost from all of the students who are no longer burdened and can cycle that money back into the economy instead of to the government. Call me a commie but it’s funny we always end up here with stuff like education and healthcare but never with military spending or corporate bailouts. The thing is, they are using your money regardless of what you want it to go to so why not push for it to for ONCE not go to some military contract Because they benefit from having an educated populace? [deleted] Why, did biden hold a gun to your head to sign your loans? It's on you to pay your loans, chief All this weeny whining about cancellong student debt is tiresome I have a mortgage, why aren't they paying that for me too? Get over urself Boom. Every goddamn leader needs to put their money, where their mouth is. You make a promise, you uphold that shit. Or atleast do good in your part for the people, and at least fullfill part of your damn promise nationally, for the people. In this point in time - we just vote for the lesser of the two evils. I voted for Biden, but I'm not afraid to sit out the next election. And this is why the democrat party will never get anything accomplished, too short minded. Conservatives play the long game. So you’re willing to let the gop trample on women and minorities as well as further solidify the courts against progressive ideals all because they won’t personally forgive your loans? Wow, some nice principles you have there. Progressives are full of crap. If you actually cared about universal healthcare, free college, or any of this other stuff you pretend to care out, the absolute last thing you’d do is sit out on Election Day. At this rate, even if progressives manage to pass m4a, a 7-2 or 8-1 conservative court will simply strike it down. Good luck ever implementing any of your policies, even if by some miracle you’re able to pass them. All because Hillary isn’t progressive enough. Because Biden didn’t personally cancel your debts. Good god, progressives have to be the least strategic people ever. Just constant temper tantrums. [deleted] [deleted] That's only private student loans. Obama brought the federal loans back under the federal government directly (what republicans decried as an industry takeover), so that couldn't happen. Biden can't forgive private loans anyway, so that's not a part of this discussion. The only difference is students can not default on those loans other then by dying or becoming so disabled that the repayment would be impossible This is the way. Don’t you guys qualify for forgiveness as teachers? LETS GO BRANDON!!!! Did anyone really fall for it? No one I know wanted Biden, they all voted against Trump. Well in 4 years there’s gonna be a new generation of voters who haven’t grown wise to the false promises of presidential candidates. They all lie so much campaigning GenZ would get destroyed Generational civil war right now between millenials and boomers as boomers ride off into the sunset leaving us with climate apocalypse and a failed democracy. [deleted] Education is certainly important sure, but colleges arent good at education people. The problem is our college tuition is out of control expensive and has been for decades. The other problem is the high interest rates on the student loans. There is no reason for 8-10% interest on loans with no way out (like bankruptcy). These are the safest loans any bank could make. The other problem is responsibility. People did sign the loan documentation. They are on the hook for repayment. 18 or not, people need to be responsible for their debts. There is no forgiveness of student debt. Not as a result of bankruptcy, not as a result of old age (they take your social security benefits), not as a result of death (they take assets from your estate) All this from throwing money at eighteen year old kids. We don't consider eighteen year old kids mature enough to drink or smoke, but we're sure as hell happy to put them in lifelong debt and servitude. >Can someone kindly enlighten/educate a non-American on the student loan problem? Over the years the US govt. has vastly increased the accessibility (and $ amount) of student loans, which created demand, and this prompted the universities to raise their tuition exponentially because why not? They are a cut throat business that is for profit. Boomer parents could pay for their college with a part time summer job, and kids today are taking on 50k-100k$ debt, all while the government is charging them ~6% interest. The whole situation is absurd. The ideal solution would be diverting some of the military budget towards higher education, but that will never happen, so I've seen other solutions that make some sense. They should make the loans zero interest with the principal amount due in full by the time you retire. Any amount unpaid will be deducted from the person's Social Security. This seems like the next best solution, as the debt will be paid back, but without the governments usury It's more so people are questioning why these things have to be so ridiculously expensive. The second thing is that many of these loans are insanely hard to pay off once you're done school. Many of these kids don't have good support systems so when you're having to live on your own, pay rent, pay for a car, phone, internet, food etc and try to have a bit of a social life, it becomes very hard to pay it back. Thats compounded even more if you don't manage to get a job right away that relates to your degree. The bills are so large that interest is incredibly expensive. The requisite jobs don't exist. Ubering doesn't cover loans. You can't declare bankruptcy on government loans. The jobs people went to college for no longer exist or are now minimum wage. The people don't make enough money to afford to pay them back. They can never be forgiven even through bankruptcy. Basically to get an advanced degree you need to get into deep debt at government backed predatory rates of 5-8% Nah the media will fix that Hey now, we burned alot of good billions in Afghanistan He did put up legislation to fix this but Republicans and one Democrat said no. Anytime the debt cancellation is brought up Fox News goes into a furry over punishing those who have already paid off their loans. My hope is one day people will stop voting in politicians that vote against their best interests bc of “socialism” For reals. Absolutely. Done with these old fucks telling me to get to work. I’ve been at work, staring down a dying democracy, a dying economy, and a dying planet. Every politician over 40 can do their part by getting out of the fucking way. Biden *especially*. Because Republicans support student loan forgiveness? Give me a break. [deleted] Wah! that will help with your loans in the long run. Democrats will never get any major legislation accomplished in this country because the people voting for them have too short of memories. Politics is a long game and youll never get anything accomplished if you think it only takes 2 years to accomplish major changes like student loan debt forgiveness. Do you live in America? What happened when debt was paused? Inflation jumped for the first time in decades. Want stagflation pile on debt payments. I for one think it’s more than worth it to give the most productive folks in society more disposable income. You realize that rent has gone up 36% in the past 7 years and inflation is being passed on to consumers at the highest rate in 30+ years? Fuck off with this nonsense You'll laugh when you look up why tuition is so out of control. It's got nothing to do with free-reign capitalism and everything to do with government. From a George Mason University paper on the cost of higher education: In a market economy, the demand for goods and services responds to prices. Government subsidies, which effectively lower the prices of goods or services, inevitably increase demand. Therefore, by subsidizing tuition through federal student aid, the government creates artificially high demand for college degrees, driving tuition prices higher and increasing the overall cost for students and taxpayers. As Bennett hypothesized, if education institutions are receiving greater federal funds and students are still being charged higher tuition and fees, then the educational institutions must be capturing part of the federal aid through increasing tuition. Policymakers’ solution to the issue of increasing costs has traditionally been to increase federal aid funding, which, as the hypothesis predicts, results in college getting ever more expensive over time. Universities are so expensive because they know kids will just borrow on federal loans. I want the federal government to get out of the student loan business. Provide grants instead. If this happens, you'll see a healthy reduction in our higher education system. Some of these liberal arts schools in particular are scams and pyramid schemes; few of these students get related jobs. I was one of them. >It's a market that needs to be badly regulated. Education and free-reign capitalism are not a good mix. So what you're saying is have all the private schools shut down? And how would you ""regulate"" them? force them to operate at a loss? reduce their research institutions? These Private Institutions are as expensive as they are because they aren't subsidized and accreditation is based off research, which is expensive (which is why community colleges are cheaper). The exception of course being the top 20 Mega schools with F U endowments, spanning centuries. There's plenty of good Public Universities that have tuition around 10-12k a year in-state (community colleges average out at like 4k/year), the people saddled with ""crazy debt"" are generally going to private schools or out of state. I'm more than happy to say the government should refuse to give loans for people going to private Universities, no reason for private Universities to see public money. They can stay playgrounds for the rich, no problem with that. Bwahahaha where you been at lol. Did you think Brandon would do something after ALREADY BEING IN POLITICS FOR OVER 50 years lol. All you people definitely got jipped on that “education” you got lol you cant do shit now though he’s president and just wait for what’s heading our way next lol Dont enter contractual agreements that have bad terms…. You wont vote for the GOP because uncle biden a DEMOCRAT wants you to repay your debt you agreed too. I wish i could do that to my credit card bills i dont like those and they’re unfair. Wheres my compensation if you get out of your college debt obligations that had tax payer funds involved that you were to repay Actually, voting for the GOP in hopes of letting those idiots destroy the country in our lifetime would be an effective way to cancel our debts. On the other hand, those slimy bastards would sell our debts to the highest bidder immediately after tearing up the US Constitution. So maybe that wouldn’t actually work 🤷🏾‍♂️ Like a true career politician 😂 don’t worry they can get a summer job across the crick and pay it off no problem lol people gonna understand the term “Tax and Spend Democrat” in a few more months lol Its currently just a scam to get unsuspecting teenagers to commit to a loan for a service that in 75% of time you dont finish or if you do finish you still work at the place you did while going to school you just get to be a manager now with a small bump in pay. At least thats how its panned out for people i know. Its either medical, banking or military that seems to pan out best overall. I know a few psychology and philosophy majors shift managing dollar stores now lol. One is going back to school to get a different degree now I wish, but we dont have a better way for employers to easily filter candidates yet and thats the main value of a degree They’re not interested in “something good”. They are interested in courting centrists and folks on the Right. The assumption is they already have everyone else’s votes because we wouldn’t dare vote for a Republican. They have no need to do anything for us… or so they tell themselves. Source: I have friends that run campaigns and are card carrying Dem party members that participate in local politics. I don't understand how people can see investing in our future as a bad thing. No one thinks about the future implications of any decision like this. They just repeat talking points that they hear. We tried to warn you lol Trump being mean on twitter waaaaaay better than brandons taxes lol. Venmo and PayPal will be reporting anything over 600$ now along with a plethora of other taxes. Orange Man Bad still?? [deleted] What are the dem old guards? The problem is that they expected to be able to find a job that pays a livable wage, which is incredibly difficult to do. Don't be sad. Here's a [hug!](https://media.giphy.com/media/3M4NpbLCTxBqU/giphy.gif) They bought Joey hook Hard to pay back when interest is through the roof, inflation is skyrocketing, and wage growth has been stagnant for a decade. I’m making payments on my loans (and going especially hard while interest is paused and all payments go straight to the principle) but the system is obviously rigged and needs an overhaul Bwahahaha we could have told you,,, oh wait WE DID lol but nooooo Orange Man Bad Your exactly where the career politicians want you too because the next great white hope they sneak infront of you will seem better than joey. How did dems go from saying they hate a rich orange white guy to voting for another rich white guy whos had over 50 years in politics and drafted the crime bill designed to lock up minorities Bwahahaha we warned you lol!!! But noooooo Orange Man Bad lol. Career politician is what uncle joey is he pandered to all if you. How did getting told what you wanted to hear work out?? Don’t forget he was supposed to legalize herb too lol nope gotta feed that industrial prison complex potheads since nonviolent and usually compliant just like they feed students to bankers You expect the bad to be bad. It's almost like someone told them they were getting $10k knocked off their balance. “20-30% of people in your generation made bad investments - overpaid for subpar education and realize now that they can’t pay down the debts they took on when living it up at the Ritz Carlton University for 4 years on the government’s dime. Here’s a trillion dollars.” Am I getting the details right? And then those same kids who are going to have to take loans to go to college because their low-income household can't afford it otherwise. Cycle continues. This is such a disingenuous argument. Its like saying i dont want to pay my credit card bill because the interest is too high. Hello idiots did you not read your loan terms and conditions before you signed…. No need for caps, just remove restrictions on private student loans being discharged in bankruptcy and let the market sort it out. Lenders give out money without any real underwriting process on the recipients ability to repay because it is almost guaranteed to not be discharged so they will almost always get their money eventually, and if it is delayed they just stack on interest and fees to make up for the time cost. Colleges won't be able to charge whatever they want if students can't get loans to cover it. Wages garnished until you fulfill your obligations. Check! But corporations don’t have to, and they’re people too Quick question how would you feel if instead they just stopped the loans from gaining interest or reduce the interest those loans are earning? Spot on. The “I didn’t know” argument doesn’t stand up in court for a gym membership, a cell phone plan, or enlisting in the armed forces. People smart enough to be going to college / trade school / technical school should be smart enough to read a document before signing it, and know that verbal guarantees like “we will definitely get you a six-figure salary job” from admissions reps (salespeople) have no merit or enforceability. Its the equivalent of me saying i dont want to pay back my credit card debt because i dont think the interest rates, that I agreed to at the start, aren’t fair and I shouldn’t have to pay back anything and i cant return the merchandise because its all adult toys and no refunds allowed. citation needed Yup college became a commodity they pushed on everyone. If you agreed to the loan then you gotta pay the piper. I dont like paying my credit card bills because that interest is high but i dont see how college debt is any different than my credit card debt. You agreed to the terms and conditions when you signed Well you can keep being loyal to dems if you'd like. But when you get lied to again it'll be your own fault. What an independent and smart thought... https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/081815/student-loan-assetbacked-securities-safe-or-subprime.asp Someone needs one of those loans *too dumb… FTFY Yup “The saddled generation” who put that saddle on??? Did someone show up and force you to sign up for those loans?? I dont want to payback my credit cards because that interest is high and unfair even though i agreed to it at the start. If you don’t understand that you should hire an attorney and take legal action against the colleges you attended Let’s be real, he’s not gonna “forgive” 10k and you’re still gonna Vote blue. It happens with you “blue no matter who” types Just realize that uncle biden has been in office for over 50 years. He has had a hand in creating all these fiascos that republicans wouldn’t do when they had majority. Suprised how everyone was ok with joey saying a grand dragon was a really good guy and you saw him make fun of those immigrants in the 90s right?? This is soooooo lost on these people who supposedly went to college. I would be angry too if i paid that much and was this ignorant about things I love seeing them realize brandon was just like the rest lol career politician who told em what they wanted to hear to get a vote. Brandons been in politics for what 50+ years now and things just keep getting worse lol hmmmmm maybe theres a pattern but you know Orange Man Bad lol Trump would do no such thing. But I’m sure he’d offer us a 10% discount on a class about how awesome he is at Trump University. Thats called dementia with a touch of Alzheimer’s and a tumor Yup im loving reading all this buyers remorse in here lol. CAREER POLITICIAN lol he never lies because everything is a lie so everything is truth because everything is a lie. 50+ years in politics and people were stupid enough to think he would do something different than what he has up to now lol. Only reason we haven’t seen hair sniffing is social distancing lol Do i get a refund check because I didn’t fall for the scam?? Probably not but my tax dollars will go towards it If he does that i want my credit cards paid off too. Its not fair i have to pay those back because interest rate is too high on them. Yeah thats what your arguments sound like to others who paid back the contracts we signed Gotta survive uncle brandon 3 more years first lol. Dems gonna squeeze money outta everything venmo and paypal reporting anything over 600$ to govt lol My credit card doesn’t let me out of debt i agreed to take on so why should you get preferential treatment for bad debt choices? No one forced you to sign that loan agreement just like no one forced me to get a credit card with 22% interest oh wait I didn’t because that’s a bad investment i would be paying on forever This right here!!! You wreck your credit for starters and then theres all the other stuff uncle joe can cut you off from later in life for not doing your part, question did you vote for him?? Oooooh another funky backed security poop basket fund lol Spoken like a true career politician 😝 LETS GO BRANDON!!! This is politics basically you create problems for others to deal with 8-10 years down the line since most leave politics after a term or two. But not uncle joey he’s been here for what 50+ years and still making things better each day for us plebians!!!! LETS GO BRANDON!!!! Omg you guys are making me smile soooooo big reading your buyers remorse on a career politician lol. You thought he would do something finally after 50+ years in politics doing nothing but making him and his circle rich. Bwahahaha you actually thought they were telling you the truth and not just placating/pandering to you their base to get votes lol. Love that our current current president said a grand dragon was great guy at their funeral. I also found it hilarious when he made fun of hard working immigrants in the 90s for their accents. Priceless!!! LETS GO BRANDON!!!! Like Lehman Bros all over again No he’s not. He was stringing us along so that we wouldn’t stay home and sit on our hands like we did to Hillary. Unlike her, he’s smart enough to tell us what we want to hear. Especially on a sub for finance Goooo SLABS. Do your fucking part, Biden, motherfucker! They get more donations and higher poll ratings when republicans are in charge.. yes the dnc wants to be out of power with trump in office. [deleted] Lose 22 to claim the other side sucks in 2024. Standard practice — happened in 2018. It's definitely happening lol So not falling for the good politician bad politician psychological trip anymore. Not as if the popular vote matters anymore anyway in the United States. Unless you’re a delegate or a superdelegate your vote is meaningless. Democracy is dead in the US and the popular vote is an opinion poll, nothing more. How are those PPP loans going? Well, I’ve paid over $35,000 on my $48,000 loan and still owe $56,000. I just re-enrolled in the public service loan forgiveness program, but my monthly payment amount shot up to over $1,100 and I’ll get “forgiven” after paying $60,000 more. It’s a complete racket. Yeah. I’ll “do my best” Enjoy my generation killing every other industry then. I love seeing ""millennials killed X industry"" Some is culture, but we also have no disposable income because of student loans. Cancelled student loans means more money going into the economy. The alternative is money is sucked into debt for awhile and the economy stagnates everyone= >12 No kidding. This dude is pissing off moderates, you would think he would at least want to keep the progressive wing of the party. We’re sadly in the throes of populism, having dangled populist campaign promises the people who voted expect action. Legalize weed, M4A, student debt relief, federal voter rights, police reform, immigration reform, an infrastructure bill, fillubuster reform, expand the SC, guidance for crypto; all part of populist agenda, mostly left but benefitting all. The don’t have to institute all of them, just pick one and get it done. The democrats have delivered on Zero of those key populist taking points. They’ve upheld immigration policy, failed at BBB, failed to talk about legal weed, punted on student loan debt, and just not even bothered to address the remaining. If they can’t govern with a majority and a president, when will they ever? And as for student debt. It would cost $80b to pay off all student debt. With a 120 million tax paying households, that’s a whopping $667 per household. We can afford it. But we need to reign in college costs because there is no need to socialize the profits of private universities. That’s my take. He has always been that way but you didn’t want to see it. All you saw was “not Trump”. And that is terrible decision making. I agree totally. I went to college in 2014 graduated 2018. While I can say I learned a lot, on some levels the quality of education I received was very poor. I once had a core level business class that had 700 students in it. I think it was a business / supply chain class / business theory class that was taught in one of the largest seating halls we had on campus. I honestly did not learn a goddamn thing in that class. The class was required by every business major so it was a very regimented churn and burn type class where you go to class, listen to the professor lecture with the PowerPoint slide to back it up, Scantron type exams and weekly homework assignments. I never felt challenged in this class and it never allowed me to critically analyze the subject matter, it was purely a memorization class. At the end of the day, the quality of your education is determined by what you learn and what you do in a classroom setting between you and the professor. Put aside all other things that you can do in college, whether it's recreational activities intramural activities, social activities and parties. Looking back, all of these things do not matter on an educational standpoint. What matters is, again, that interaction you have with a professor and the subject material. Some of my favorite classes were the ones that were incredibly challenging both mentally and intellectually, taught by a professor who encouraged you to think critically over the subject material, Not just regurgitating information for an exam but rather written exams where you had to critique or solve sort of problem and back it up with your own critical analysis. The professors were equally important as well, with an ability to capture your attention and take pride in teaching. I had one professor who was a total fucking creep who never taught against a syllabus. He would only lecture. One day he was talking about capital asset pricing model and then the next that he would spend half the lecture talking about an inverse bond yield curve could be a prediction of a recession. And yet the class was titled ""financial statement analysis"". Honestly I only remember a few times where we even looked at a goddamn income statement. I guess what I'm saying is the quality of education is going to be highly influenced by your major and on the quality of your professors. Ok rant over. I’m a pretty recent grad (Bentley University) and this sums up my experience excellently. I went to a school with a great reputation that’s been climbing college ranking for the past decade. Every year they admit more students than the year before and they never upgrade the things that matter to increase their realistic capacity. Either admit fewer students (which would only make the school more selective and degrees more valuable) or build more dorms so that students aren’t forced into overcrowded rooms. Instead, they spent many millions on a brand new hockey arena. I’ve heard from a few professors that they objected early on and the school completely ignored their concerns. The entire school is designed to pull people in on a first impression so they can squeeze you for all you’re worth after you’ve signed on. The system is sickening Couldn’t have said it better myself! You’re leaving out though, that a disproportionate percentage of student loans go to predatory for-profit universities, which are little more than scams. A shocking percentage of debt is held by people who never even got a degree, because the “schools” they were attending were set up to issue loans, not educate students. Seems like this would be the best place to start fixing the problem. i mean the Student Loan Backed Securities is more to why it keeps getting pushed back... he doesnt care about the people. he worries about the debt that people wont pay because that debt is used as collateral by the banks. if that collateral becomes worthless then well we have another financial crisis. The “stupidity on campuses” is *not* being driven by consumer decisions. It is being driven by activists, academics, and politicians that disguise themselves as humanitarians, progressives, or environmentalists, but are actually corporatists in disguise. You all just can keep deep-throating that propaganda y’all are pushed. A predatory business. This sounds like the same problem hospitals are currently having. It started with mbas, then masters, now phds, and finally it’s happening to undergrad education. I don’t want to sound elitist, but frankly degrees, unless they are from the top institutions are pretty worthless and generally bad investments. Even certificates of completion from good schools are just a social club basically. Anyone can gain the level of knowledge almost any universities offer….it’s all out there. Ironically at my university, some of the best classes I had were taught by lecturers, and some of the worst were taught by world renowned professors. This is such a great description. The catch 22 of consumer choice is why it continues. There needs to be more financial awareness at a younger age beyond branding and how many coffee shops are on campus. As an ex professor who left academia a decade ago, I fully agree with everything you've said. Yes In Bologna you study in 100yo rooms with a tuition of 1800€ per year, I really can’t understand education for profit, the private and most expensive university here is the Bocconi and it cost 12.000€ per year but you can pay 5000€ if you qualify by having a low wage My personal thought was to limit total costs of attendence for colleges if they want their students to be eligible for federal assistance. Sure, you can charge whatever you want for students to go, but if the total cost is more than $X a semester, no students will be eligible for federal aid. Highest salaries state employee is the college football coach. Not professors, university presidents, or admins. The college football coach. In the entire state. Clearly based on where the money goes education is not the most important thing. And it’s not even remotely close. Seriously college should be free. If we want to have a remote chance vs the rest of the world in a decade. Healthcare would probably be way more affordable if they didn’t just set the price to whatever the insurance companies said they would pay. The whole thing is so gross and immoral. Same goes for student loans, it’s a bunch of inflated BS. The ever-increasing matching game That's really not accurate. There are teams of people in billing departments scrutinizing these costs daily. The ""it just so happens to cost as much as your insurance will pay"" is the result of negotiators on both sides reaching an agreed number. the margins come with luxury Real solutions don’t make as good if political sound bites Agree. The government can’t just keep printing money to pay those loans. I was under the impression SLABs constitute less than 1% of the fixed income market? If so, wouldn’t this have little impact on the market? I may be missing something here, but I don't imagine the government can forgive privately held debt. I would like to know more about this, do you have a source? Yep. This is an orders of magnitude larger bubble then what burst in 2008. How do you “default” on a student loan. Conventional loans have collateral for the object under the contract ex. A mortgage takes away the house, a commercial loan auctions out the business, a car loan repos the car, etc. but what is the collateral for a student loan? Take away their degree? What does that do but take away means to pay off the bankruptcy. Where does that leave the university’s finance at? Because i don’t think an administrator will leave their job when the faucet stops, they’ll just fire the professor/auction off school property/facilities. None of that makes sense as these items are Of the Public Sector as well. It can make sense for private university, but technically a public university’s property is paid for by taxes, hence, in a manner of speaking, belonging to taxpayers and so cannot be auctioned off. Honestly, i don’t think the concept of a loan fits this field as “threat of defaulting” provides no incentive for the loanee to perform or any leeway for flexibility when circumstances lead to poor results. Nor does the act of defaulting have any method of recovery from the venture. I agree, part of the problem is that student loans are a massive asset for the government. It has little to no incentive to just give up it's economic asset. Some leaders will continue to pay lip service to it, but I sincerely doubt that it will ever actually happen. I don’t know exactly what my kids will do, but I kind of hope they will follow me into data and finances. It’s been good to me. It must be nice to be as simple-minded as you are. Well, I’ve paid over $35,000 on my $48,000 loan and still owe $56,000. I just re-enrolled in the public service loan forgiveness program, but my monthly payment amount shot up to over $1,100 and I’ll get “forgiven” after paying $60,000 more. It’s a complete racket. My degree is in education and I’ve been teaching for years now I have 0 student loans. I worked a lot and got through school with the army and some scholarships. The system is still a mess, the business model is a total shitshow with more admins than teachers. It makes no sense. It need to be fixed. I’m personally very okay with forgiving 100% of all student loans, provided that we completely stop making them. Otherwise we will be right back in this position in 10 years I’m okay with forgiving the student loans, on a contingent that there is major change in how things are structured Why the downvotes it looks like you’re agreeing with everyone Hey there cardboardboxcarracer! If you agree with someone else's comment, please leave an **upvote** instead of commenting **""This""**! By upvoting instead, the original comment will be pushed to the top and be more visible to others, which is even better! Thanks! :) *** ^(I am a bot! Visit) [^(r/InfinityBots)](https://reddit.com/r/InfinityBots) ^(to send your feedback! More info:) [^(Reddiquette)](https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439#wiki_in_regard_to_comments) Imagine believing that the government should have ever allowed people to take out loans for education at the unpalatable rate of 5-8% interest annually with little to no insight into return. That’s essentially a predatory recipe for disaster. Does sending 15 planes to the DOD that they didn’t ask for cause a hole in the budget? I mean it’s a critical investment towards future development. A better educated population is never a bad thing and can bring massive benefits. Raise corporate taxes, there filled the hole. Lol so you’re arguing that Democrats should pay people to vote for them? Isn’t that the part you aren’t supposed to say out loud? You may not realize this, but progressive voters are a minority in this country. Democrat does not necessarily equal progressive Democrat. And thats why progressives will never win what they want. They have a short memory compared to conservatives. Conservatives play the long game. Democrats win one election and then demand major change. [deleted] Ok so what about that? That hasn’t been mentioned once since he’s been elected. You can’t possibly think that’s how this works [deleted] Thats the reasoning democrats have used since at least Clinton... Look where we are now. Make your own choices but I don't think I'll ever be voting for either R or D in any presidency until they pull their heads out of their own asses. [deleted] It was Bernie’s plan. He just put his name on it While I know there are some businesses out there who did need it, my business most certainly did not. It just turned into a bottom line bonus for my boss, a subsidy to cover payroll. Maybe don’t bombard minors with endless propaganda that encourages massive debt by selling it as necessary education. You can’t tell kids their only option for success is going to college no matter what for their entire lives and expect them to make any kind of rational decision about predatory student loans when they turn 18. Educated and well informed masses are the foundation of democratic societies. Look at where we are— a good chunk of people in our country still believe Trump won. Yet we are the only western democracies that have for profit lending for college. We prefer to spend money on ICBM, instead. Fair? what a silly statement. rather than giving trump more lip service, let’s think about what is fast becoming our shitty new alternative: a republican sweep in the upcoming elections because the democrats lied and want else except business as usual via serving their corporate owners instead of the american people; putting us right back where we started from because biden and the democrats are as inept as they are corrupt. yippie. both choices were - and are - insultingly bad. let’s drop the whole the other side is worse talking point please. Maybe it's time to stop choosing ""the lesser evil."" I'm tired of this game of chicken that the working class is all but guaranteed to lose, no matter who makes it into office. Cthulhu 2024: why choose the *lesser* evil? This next election cycle will demonstrate how much people genuinely value ethical leadership versus their wallet. Complaining about Biden and loans is unrelated to the massive cultural upheaval his predecessor kicked in motion. Lots of people *claimed* to be upset by that predecessor, but if the pendulum swings back because loans weren’t magically forgiven, we know where we are as a society. Vote third party. It was between the giant douche and the turd sandwich. I’m sorry but that isn’t fair anymore. It’s not fair that we have to choose morals over saving up for a house or deciding to go to college or not. Or whatever it is. If the system is broken, is there a better candidate. Aren’t they just different kinds of evil? I am a liberal but I’ll tell ya what, it damn well infuriates me that every time they say Biden on TV, trump gets mentioned twice.. lol biden needs to do something serious soon otherwise he has no chance of a legacy and he will go down in history as being useless. At least trump was so bad, people assembled and learned about politics. Now we just tiktok 😬 ok end rant this. same way Trump got elected. [deleted] wrongo bongo. Coup - *noun* 1. a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government. \- he was elected, he didn't get power by overthrowing government \- there was no seizure of power from any one or any government \- nothing Trump did on Jan 6th was illegal you have zero points to defend calling what happened on January 6th a coup. Oddly they don't show the chart I have been viewing anymore. It showed student loans at 37% of the assets which is more than government home loans and tax income combined... The charts they show on google aren't the ones I am referring to. The government is deep in it which allows the Universities to charge crazy money which mostly goes to the University boards and not actually education. I took a picture of the chart I saved. If I cannot post it here then look in my profile. 37% is student loans... Fascism for everyone ! You mean pad the pockets of the universities. What if that person didn’t pursue a career in their field? What if they are a “forever” student, taking multiple degrees? Sure, education in the society is vastly important, but right now I’d argue just attending a university doesn’t really qualify as “education” for a significant amount of attendees that go. I’d rather people make better decision with the money they borrow instead of blaming it on defense contractors who we need due to the dozens of nations hostile towards Western society. But yeah let’s blame defense contractors and not you for making stupid financials decision. Guess that creative finger painting degree wasn’t a great choice but with logic like yours you weren’t destined to make good choices. These are not equivalent proposals. It’s not an either/or situation. The answer to this question is that we shouldn’t. College degree holders still earn drastically more on average than those who only graduated high school. Diamond rings are marked up 1000% So what’s the answer to this then? I think the medical dept example is also on the progressive agenda though This is a nation of 300 million people and growing. The idea that it’s reasonable to have large chunks of the populace forgoing education in areas that are already massively under staffed (all of healthcare for example) is not reasonable. It’s not only not reasonable it would cause the collapse of many industries, push the retirement age and reduce the entire labor markets worth. Expunging the debt is not a slap in the face to anyone. You and I are alive and have life saving vaccines and technology only because we have mechanisms to funnel people to education. Hey Community College and transfer student here. So ya I did your route. I CHOSE to go to the cheapest possible schools. I CHOSE to not take out any loans, except for one semester I was really struggling so I got $3k to cover the tuition. Was already working 60hrs per week when I did that. Anyways, long story short, that $3k loan has ballooned into $60k. So ya. I CHOSE alright. Maybe the question isn’t why taxpayers should fund others choices, but why on earth is education so fucking expensive. Compare education costs, minimum wages, and the work required at minimum wage to pay for tuition today to 30 years ago. You and I CHOSE “bad/cheap” schools because we had no choice for better schools. In fact neither of us had a CHOICE. We went with what we believed we could afford. Key word is belief. Many believe going to a better University that costs more will get you a better job and therefore pay off loans, they believed they could afford it, just like you did. They believed, we believed, U.S. believed, but 30 years down the track and now we have a good portion of the population that doesn’t believe in science. So ya. Lets blame the person going after a degree and taking on loans to do so. Not the fucked system we let be created. it would make sense to demand 0% for student loans. The idea of making money off our future is fucking nasty Education is literally infrastructure development. Without capable workers, the country will not compete. People think that 5-8% isn’t predatory when (1) education is a basic human right; and (2) their point of comparison is non-risk adjusted private lending rates at 15-20%. Wage deflation is real and for some reason, people can’t accept that universities shouldn’t be charging 60-70k per year for a fucking degree that earns that much yearly PRE-TAX. Currently one of the highest paying business sectors (tech) does no such thing. You can get 6 figure salaries as self taught. The higher interest rates do make sense tho.. there are a lot of ways to get out of paying your loan _and_ there is nothing to repossess if you default _and_ anyone is approved.. its a market and student loans absolutely should be much higher interest rate than a house or car. Business sector requires degrees because they are so common due to government money. If fewer people had degrees, fewer jobs would require them. Then why are we not changing the system? People are still falling for the same trap you just mentioned and will continue to until a change is made. Post secondary students are literally future legislators, yet no one can figure out how to do it. Why even bother getting an education if no one is going to use it for change? Biden can't cut the military budget on his own, as everyone is suggesting that he can just make this happen with the stroke of a pen LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK! >Because Biden won't win another election if he doesn't Didn't he say he wouldn't be running in 2024? Can't the fucker take a hint? [deleted] Oh, so we have more people able to bid up prices on homes and vehicles? Great… When I decided to go into trades, all of my teachers and many of my classmates told me I would lack the ability to participate in the labor market in any financially secure way. Now those of us in trades who have jobs will have our taxes raised to pay for your debt. We were made to feel dumb for not going to college, and now we have to pay your debt. It’s an arrogance tax. You thought you were better, now prove it by paying your loan back with your “degree that will make you so much more money than a ditch digger without having to work as hard.” Or start digging ditches, it pays better than an English degree or Gender studies. It is more widely available than biologist jobs. It is harder and you might think you’re worth more, but you aren’t until you are. We’re hiring where I work! Starts you out at 22$/hr with 6 month .50 progressions and then a max out date after 12 progressions at around 45$/hr. So let’s double your taxes then and let everyone attend college for free. You down for that? It’s good for the nation, right? As someone whose effective income tax rate is 30% and has student loans, fuck anyone who doesn’t think forgiveness is a plausible option. Also our entire generation was lied to and made the victims of a massive and deliberate wealth transfer. Myself and everyone my age was told since the day we were born “work hard and stay out of trouble so you can get the absolute best education possible.” I thought I understood the situation I was walking into but how is a 17 year old supposed to know that everything they’ve ever been told about higher education is a lie? I did everything I was supposed to and went to the school that gave me the best deal considering total cost minus aid offered. I didn’t study what I had a passion for or what I thought I’d be best at, I studied what would make me the most employable. Still, I ended up with crazy debt If they do it just before the midterms, i’m afraid my schedule might be too busy to vote anyway. Oops. Already put a horrible taste in peoples mouth. Even if Joe does the 10k think we lost the poster above. This is my hope but in the same way I hope I’m going to hit the next powerball. Honestly, the lottery odds are probably better. That’s WAY too smart for the Dems This is such a fucking retarded statement I'm amazed that you made it all the way through typing it. This is such a fucking retarded statement I have a hard time believing someone was actually fucking stupid enough to type it. [deleted] Lol the same peoples’ rights you are talking about have already been trampled under Biden’s administration. Life is not that materially different under Biden or trump. It’s all one charade. Both parties work for the same folks: one just masks everything under woke terms and the other under evangelical. [deleted] Votes ain’t free. Pay those loyal to or they’ll go elsewhere. Bleat all you want about high brow concepts that don’t sell. So your argument is basically ""you should pay because I want you to pay and it wouldn't be fair to me because I paid."" Fuck off. I mean, I would hope it wouldn’t encourage more borrowing and debt. My ideal scenario (which may not be yours or anyone else’s cuz it’s a fucking opinion lol) is the US becomes a nation with a proper nationalized health care system so people aren’t left choosing between rent, food, and healthcare. Housing, healthcare, food, education, all these have ballooned in cost, while wages stagnate and don’t keep up with production. These are huge problems in a domino effect to solve properly. Joe and Kamala seemed like the people who could step up to tackle it a year ago, but now Joe is Status Quo Joe, and Kamala dodged questions better Neo dodges bullets. Eliminating federal alone would be a massive stimulus to the economy If you have some absurd amount of payments in I’ve been denied once Yes Just to be clear fuck trump and the GOP as well And grow the fuck up and say fuck joe Biden like an adult Most of GenZ can’t even buy guns yet. Dying 🤣 Not all of Gen Z is weak or lib just so you know. 1. I’m not a Democrat. 2. “When economists speak of ""education,"" the focus is not strictly on workers obtaining college degrees. Education is often broken into specific levels: Primary—elementary school in the U.S. Secondary—middle school, high school, and preparatory school Post-secondary—university, community college, vocational schools A country's economy becomes more productive as the proportion of educated workers increases since educated workers can more efficiently carry out tasks that require literacy and critical thinking…” Source: https://www.investopedia.com/articles/economics/09/education-training-advantages.asp The safest loan any bank could make? Why do you think that? It’s pretty easy to repossess a car or foreclose on a house. When a loan is spent on education, there is nothing for a bank to seize as collateral when a loan defaults. Thx. And that feels very wrong to me, literally cannot rip after death, idk that before. Basically the choices are 1)not going to school, or 2)go to school but high-chance shackled to a lifetime of debt people cannot get out. And the problem is gov is not doing enough to make choice 2) better, but people want and need education, so problem snowballs. Thanks, I can understand the problem better now. Yes US has too much fire power and not enough brain power I guess. Ty! Yea I can see the expanses indeed adds up quickly. But have people who took loans not considered the consequence(not able to pay back in time based on people already graduated and cannot currently pay back) before they take the loan? Or is student loan basically the only way to afford education? For the compounding interests, I wish there could be something like a no interest period for 2 year maximum after graduation so people can take time to find a good job. Not sure if it will help. There’s magically always one Democrat. 😂 They only care about one thing. The dollar. This spring i betcha that everyone is striking. Nurses, Teachers, Blue Collar, Truck Drivers, grocery store and burger flippers etc. The system is backed by faith. If your society can not make basic ends meet, they will have no faith in the system. You can’t base an economy on Oil and Hopium. People will act when it starts warming up. 2022 is a big year, same as 1922. History likes to repeat itself. Exactly, and least the Democrats paid some lip service and there's always a remote chance younger Dems will convince some boomers for a sort of amnesty program. The GOP is literally letting the fox into the hen house , not only won't they even consider forgiveness, they're more likely to privatize the entire industry and Jack up rates and fees so their crony capitalists can buy a few more yatchs. C'mon hadn't the Trump years taught us anything about the GOP, those fckers are the poster child for corrupt and narcissist. Maybe don’t vote for them either? Maybe it will lead to getting rid of one or both of the “two major parties”? Centrist democrats *are* republicans. SLABs are a direct results of Senator Biden’s bills. Just because I don’t vote for the Democrats doesn’t mean I will vote for the Republicans. I know they’re terrible. I’m just tired of giving the Democrats a chance only to be disappointed again and again. Republicans don't support a giant higher education industrial complex either with ever-enlarging administration. ""[Student debt is] holding people up,"" Biden said. ""They're in real trouble. They're having to make choices between paying their student loan and paying the rent."" On March 22 2020, the president also tweeted about forgiving $10,000 of student debt. ""Additionally, we should forgive a minimum of $10,000/person of federal student loans, as proposed by Senator Warren and colleagues. Young people and other student debt holders bore the brunt of the last crisis. It shouldn't happen again,"" he wrote. [deleted] No but I’m American and I have a small amount of student loan debt. Why are you stalking my post history? [deleted] Sounds like someone wants their debt forgiven. You realize there's a huge chunk of the population experiencing those same factors who either never attended college or don't have student loan debt? [deleted] >I want the federal government to get out of the student loan business. Provide grants instead. So go back to what happened before the neoliberals and Reagan got control of government. The real solution is to provide quality education K-12, Cut first 2 years of college general ed non-sense, send it down to the high schools. There is zero reason for college to be 4 years. Sucks to have two piles of shit as candidates Except that he also promised student loan cancellation. It’s the single most important issue to me as a voter. If he hasn’t promised it I’d care less. I think this is where you guys throw a few questions to Nancy Pelosi and crew Just like us people who pay our credit card debts with high interest rates because we agreed to the terms. Just because a poor decision is made doesn’t allow you to negate your contractual agreements Yes dickhead. Orange man is still bad but I can dislike both for different reasons Guy says he will cancel 10k then says pay up. I wonder why people don't like him. [deleted] Calling 4-7% interest on public loans “sky high” is a bit much, plus unemployment is below the “ideal” 4% resulting in wage growth across all industries (Amazon/Walmart moving to $15+ per hour, etc.). I do agree that it’s unfair that the public loan interest rate is higher than the mortgage rate, when the government has more means to seize the principal that depreciates over time. I’ve always felt that the student loan interest rate should be set at the treasury yield or prime lending rate. None of these loans should be federally backed to begin with. Forgiving existing loans does nothing to prevent the creation of this exact same situation in the future. > but the system is obviously rigged and needs an overhaul Yeah, too many useless majors exist. People told their kids, ""you can be anything you want"", which is a lie. You took out the money. Pay it back. I paid back all the money i took out. Having problems? Heres some tips: * Get a room mate or 2 * Used cars, paid for in cash only, IF you even get a car * No starbucks. Zero. * In fact, eating out doesnt look good for you. Happy hours only, on rare occasions. * You dont need a $1,000 phone. You dont need a $90/mo phone plan either. * You dont need all the streaming services. * You can do a lot with beans, rice, pasta. Emotional/selective memory This is about current student debt being forgiven not all school loans indefinitely as far as I’m aware. Most low income students get large federal aid amounts if they choose to go to college. Only 38% of people over 25 in the USA have secondary education which they chose to pursue. Why should the remaining 62%s tax dollars go towards paying off these loans? It’s call real world experience, not just this echo chamber “ one, or “” two?? You’re naive if you think people don’t and won’t lie. That goes for both sides but at least you know dems will make some progress, even if it’s slow. More importantly, you know they won’t destroy our country and continue to destroy our democracy. Everyone says dems are the lesser of two evils… I wouldn’t go that far. I think it’s that people expect dems to do more and aren’t satisfied with what little progress we are getting and the rate at which we are getting it. However people fail to see that it’s still progress and the gqp will take several steps back and make things worse. And with all the redistricting the gqp is famous for, it’s a cold, hard fact that not voting or voting for a 3rd party candidate is only helping the gqp. So, don’t come complaining about things getting much worse when you don’t vote dem. Hopefully that won’t be the case one day but you’ve got to live in today’s reality. Only idiots are crying about having been lied to. This is just about who won’t destroy the country and who won’t and the dems may someday somehow help in regards to student loans, you know that 100% the gqp wont. You’ll probably even lose your freezes. [deleted] And that 10k is classified as income if I’m not mistaken so pushes people up a tax bracket too in some cases ive heard lol Nope. I am voting red. I thought about not voting, but that's only a one vote loss for dems when it could also be a one vote gain for the other side. Uh nobody thought he was a good guy. I paid my loans off already boss. I gain nothing from it. Society gains as a whole. We all do better, when we all do better. I did and would again. Like many, he is still the lesser of two evils. I never had high hopes for Biden. I’ve never liked him. But, I can proudly say I have never voted for Trump as a gun owner and small business owner and likely will never vote Republican again in my lifetime. Bernie and AOC and even Buttigieg would have been much preferred. If that helps to somehow pigeonhole me. There you have it. [Crunchy White Pimp 4 ever](https://www.reddit.com/r/CovIdiots/comments/rupv78/crunchy_white_pimp_4ever/) In my short life, I don’t think I’ve ever enjoyed the politician elected in. So you’re not saying much in my pov. Trash is trash, and all politicians are alike…trash. Yes...except this time, no one on the planet is left to bail us out. Sigh… Let’s go Brandon… sigh… And cable news gets better ratings Nobody wants the republicans to win its that it’s been two years of loan extensions which is not the most important hill to die on. Idk maybe climate change, voter suppression, even regulatory reform for the largest companies are all bigger priorities. I consider myself fundamentally pessimistic, but even I haven’t considered this level of depravity. A while back I would have disagreed with you. But that was then, and this is now… My thinking is dems are naturally more comfortable as the opposition party rather than the folks who have to make decisions. They would rather be the party that critiques and not the party being critiqued. Big ooof [deleted] forgiveness was disclosed as part of the initial agreement. Holy shit, what’s your APR dude. That sounds insane That’s how interest works, it’s the same for all interest bearing loans. Whether or not they should have interest is one thing but being surprised that they increase in size when you pay less then the interest is illogical. I’ve paid over $90k on my 120k loan ($87k was the original disbursement amount) and my loan balance is now $100k! Go me! Did you read what you agreed to? WTF? You haven't owed any interest in like a year and people enrolled in PSLF don't have to make payments during this period, and each month still counts as a qualified payment. Maybe you should look into this stuff. Shouldn't have signed the contract Interest... how does that work?? Originally owed 35k. Paid 36 so far still owe 25k. I think student loans should charge 1% interest. And sure, if I pay back my original loan I should be done. No way we should be subject to loan rates double of not triple what home and car rates are. Loans should be forgiven if you’ve paid your original principal by now. Same boat as me. I’ve paid 125% of what I borrowed and owe about 110% more than I borrowed still. Have you visited r/pslf yet? Loan sharks will do that. Good luck keeping your fingers, hope you’re enjoying your pontoon boat The math simply doesn’t work. Let’s use round numbers and say your interest rate was TEN percent. You’d pay $4800 a year in interest or $400/month. You’re saying you paid less than $400 a month and allowed an additional 20 months (20 * $400 = $8k) to accrue of missed payments during covid in order for your balance to increase by $8k. Switch to an income-based repayment plan. Unless you have private loans, if your loans came from the government, you can apply for income driven repayment. This means that if your not making enough money to afford your 1k monthly payment they’ll lower it based on how much you make yearly. I think I was paying 13 bucks a month. However that’s thanks to the fact that despite having an MBA (which is what I took the loan out for), I make 17 hr at my job. So look into if you can, if your loans are private, I’m sorry that sucks. Just pay 50/month they can’t do Shit because technically your still paying. Millennials aren’t doing as bad as everyone thinks Regular peoples’ pennies are nothing to them they want to steal ur life The bankers who receive your money will just spend it instead Heck many of those bankers are millennials now. [deleted] Cap the internet rate at sub 1-2% and make myself and everyone else who took out loans pay them off. This whole “50k in forgiveness” (or more depending on the politician) is just a dog whistle to the secure the future voting promises of the wealthy/privileged. Cap the interest rate and completely redo the higher education system (I.e remove federal loan guarantees, provide the ability to declare bankruptcy etc etc). Because if we don’t address that, we’ll have the same problem 10-15 years ago. Went to school much earlier than you, but that almost sounds like a weeder class. We had one of those in our business school, it was Finance 101 and I believe it's sole purpose was to ensure students could get out of bed before 7am. That was the only time slot available, it was taught by one professor. You studied by just reading the Wallstreet journal, and I believe they took attendance. Worst class ever. Recreation, intramural, and social activities absolutely do matter from an educational standpoint. Burnout is real and giving students less options for Rec time will lead to some unhealthy mindsets especially during finals. When students live on or near campus, that's pretty much their entire world especially the first two years. Freshman and sophomore's aren't always allowed to have cars. I went to school the same years you did for my undergraduate degree so my experience is recent as well. Half the professors are either afraid of giving students anything challenging anymore because students just complain to the dean (and multiple students from 1 class get noticed) and the professor is most likely untenured or an adjunct so their job is always precarious or the professor is just tired of 80% of students not being able to meet the challenging materials and doesn't have the TA support to grade all the work and give feedback. The point of college isnt to teach you. That's just a bonus. Its to weed out people who can't get a diploma for employers. Remember Howard university Love to see another Falcon! Case Western doing the same thing “The entire school is designed to pull people in on a first impression so the can squeeze you for all you’re worth.” First off. It’s a private school and is expensive. They’re not hiding that… To cut to the chase. Median household income in the US is $68k. Median 2020 graduate salary $60k. Job placement rates of 98%+ in 2020… a terrible time to graduate. So no. Bentley is not an empty shell. The results speak for themselves. It’s an expensive school but you are almost guaranteed a high paying job afterwards. The “sickening system” you describe is not Bentley. It’s schools that cost similar but graduate people with degrees that will never be able to pay off the high debt loads. Double Falcon here. Worth every penny! Hi from Waltham! Who will pay for this "" free"" college? Bingo! Health insurance is no longer insurance. If I have to pay a copay that covers the actual visit, it’s not insurance. Get out of here with deductibles. I was happy when legislation passed that forced hospitals to disclose pricing but that ultimately led them to disclose it in the most difficult and hard to follow way you may not understand it fully. Student loans are a good idea on paper (lowering the barrier to entry for low income families to higher education) but in practice it’s sad to see. Vast majority of teenagers are not ready for 5-15k per semester, or mature enough to realize when they’re in to deep and stop to pay that debt instead of changing majors and keeping the party going. [deleted] So true. Well said Student loan debt isn't dischargeable through bankruptcy. If you have a pulse you will be paying, not the government. They will garnish your wages and take it if they have to. Pretty sure the discussion is usually about forgiving federal loans Sure they can. They can buy it. [https://www.reddit.com/r/Superstonk/comments/ros6ii/student\_loan\_asset\_backed\_securities\_slabs\_the/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Superstonk/comments/ros6ii/student_loan_asset_backed_securities_slabs_the/) be gentle Slabs are an incredibly small part of the fixed income market If they end up being good at programming in tech school, put them into AI and robotics college programs If by simple minded you mean not having hundreds of dollars in subscription services a month coupled with the need to feel good about myself by purchasing expensive car leases and electronics every year on top of my student loans I need to pay back, then yeah, it is pretty nice being “simple minded”. Simple minded keeps me finically stable in and increasingly unstable economy. Try it sometime when you not watching Netflix. And you signed on the line agreeing to that racket. Sorry, but no one out a gun to your head. [deleted] Lmao you’re delusional if you consider 5%-8% on a personal unsecured loan “unpalatable” and “predatory.” Those rates are way lower than a private lender would be willing to offer. Granted the high barriers to discharge in bankruptcy provide some added protection vs. other personal unsecured loans like credit cards The alternative would be abolishing for-profit-education I’m not arguing for or against it with my comment, just explaining why nobody in Washington is eager to do it. Sending 15 planes to the DOD that they didn’t ask for is great for representatives of the states/districts where the planes are manufactured. Nobody wants spending that benefits their constituents cut for a benefit equally distributed to everyone. Next election their opponent will say look how they failed to keep that money coming into our state and it’s a tough line to sell “we had to do it to help cut interest on student loans for people in other states.” The problem is actually less the DOD and more senators/governors whose state manufacturers the planes (or parts of). The reason the DOD gets swamped with asinine amounts of shit is because it’s job security somewhere else which gets people elected AND paid on the backend. We’re legally required to have a certain number of battleships when those battleships fail in every war scenario. We have them because the military industrial complex has too many people employed. We need to replace the military economics with education and healthcare but that would require a lot of people training for new jobs. I’m not sure the governments goal is a better educated population based on the last few years. #justlookup Corporations will just pass it on to consumers just like they have at 6-7% inflation. I mean same thing happens with Republicans with tax breaks, so idk man sounds like a problem on both sides here. People just want there party to benefit them. No, he's arguing that Democrats should make good on the promises they campaigned upon if they'd like to retain the trust and support of their base. [deleted] Not sure if this is a hot take from a highschool student or Ben Shapiro's alt account... Democrats should keep promises they made during the campaign. They can't seem to do that. If you promise to take care of our societal problem of student loan debt... Then you don't... That just makes you a liar and a bad politician. Why would you vote for a person who is just going to lie to you (as a Democrat, we all know Republicans love being lied to). It’s basically what American politics has become. Bribery for votes. Yes? It ain’t all that quiet.every policy is just someone else getting paid We are painfully aware of that. We are also aware democrats accomplish absolutely Jack shit. [deleted] What do conservatives want exactly and what have conservative administrations delivered in those terms the last 20 years? “You dog-faced pony soldier!!!” Obviously not but one can hope. I guess the sarcasm/wit didn't come across that well owell. Damn. Well, that would still work for me. I'd be ok with only 4k paid back after all I've already paid... Holding your own party to account is a bad thing? You're in for a rude awakening if you don't already see what will happen. Yup I didn’t fall for it and started working my way up at a local dealership. Way better off than friends stuck in dead end cubicles with all the other cookie cutter degrees that got them nowhere Until the old voters die off, that’s just how it’s going to be. You will not change that. You say this literally as the Supreme Court is debating to gut Roe. So, I waste my vote on someone with extremely low chances of winning or do I give it someone with a decent chance? Unfortunately, the younger candidates were too radical to make it to the end. > Maybe it's time to stop choosing ""the lesser evil."" Yeah no. Heard that logic in 2016. 800,000 people have died so far [deleted] People are fed up with these people in power and many will likely sit out. I know I will not be voting D or R in the next election It’s not that unrelated nor is Biden that ethical a leader. Republican critiques (not from the Brandon crowd) are right when they say that Biden has bad judgement and has always had judgment issues across his whole career. As a progressive Biden was my LAST choice for potus, tied with Kamala Harris. I only voted for this ticket because trump, I believe, is a fascist. But, I don’t think the odds are high enough on his re-election with the 01/06 committee leaking coup documents weekly that I would seriously consider voting for the democrats ticket as is. Economically Biden has made this country worse for the average person with almost every vote prior to presidency. Something really special would have to happen, in the era of black swans, to get me to want to vote for a corporate ticket with a man who has voted yes on every awful idea the senate and house have had SINCE LIKE 1980, not limited to but including: removal of the right of student loans discharge, the iraq war, mandatory minimums and the drug war, keeping pot illegal…the list just goes on and on and on. Nothing he stands for represents me except for that he is a more stable choice than a very unique single leader. If trump is not on the ballot I will not be voting. And least of all will I be voting for this cuck. People are just going to move away from depending on the federal government for aid and assistance and eventually people will start asking why we give them 1/3 in tax revenue for almost NOTHING in return except more bullshit from the pentagon. The SCOTUS is already beginning the trend by empowering state governments against the federal system through the texas abortion law. The state you live in is now more important than ever for your quality of life and rights because the feds are going to do nothing. Anything but Blue or Red. But Vote so you get counted Who told you life was fair? Exactly. They never do Thank you. Last I saw was a tweet saying he was looking into it but no personal promises. Whether he can do it by executive order or not is still up for debate not clarified by the statement. The most powerful dem in congress (Pelosi) says he can not do it through EO. But always thought his strategy has been to get BBB through first, because forgiving student loans first would make it much harder for congress to tolerate the cost of the plan. But was surprised by almost letting loans begin again in Jan. Lol imagine believing universities should need 70-80k per year per student to survive, whether that’s UG or grad. The whole system is a total fucking scam. [deleted] The proposal in question isn’t to pay for college, but rather provide debt relief for millions of millennials who aren’t able to have the same economic opportunities their parents did…simply because the price of school went up and the value of an education is devalued Also the Federal government has caps on undergrad/grad studies to protect against forever students…but regardless, this is only calling for 10k…literally 25% of the average total student loan debts of millennials We can’t let a minor consideration prevent impactful stimulus who cares? it’s good for the country. worthwhile investment IMO. just take half the “defense” budget and spend it on school. >>You mean pad the pockets of the universities. Students applying to an institution of higher education couldnt figure this out before they signed up? That’s a false equivalency If I had to guess…millennial College grads likely are saddled with more debt than non-College grads Either way, we’re not talking about now…this proposal would be focused on the future and assuring their ability to buy a house, raise a family, save… Ahhh the good ole diamond mafia Healthcare is a great example of education costs veing massively overinflated due to easy government money though. Being a doctor does not have to require 10+ years of schooling as it currently does. It also did take me 9 years to finally graduate. Worked about 30 jobs during that time to pay for it. Well am still paying for it I would argue college does little to make most people more capable workers though. I use maybe 5% of what I learned in college and most of my colleagues are in the same situation. Yea education is a basic human right which is why we have public elementary, middle, and high schools. Higher education is not a right, it is a privilege. Otherwise I would like my MBA paid for please [deleted] Good luck Lol. Show me one self taught ETL analyst that’s worth hiring. It’s non dischargeable debt? How is what you’re saying sensible in any way. If borrowers could declare bankruptcy, sure - but they can’t. If it were that simple they would scoop up those without degrees for the margin advantage on payroll Because you people keep electing geriatric psychopaths instead of focusing on putting pressure on parties to actually align with the majority of their constituents. I totally agree with you. I just don't see any meaningful change will occur by voting for the usual candidates (I still vote) and I don't see quality candidates coming out in the next few years. I think any meaningful change that needs to be made before it's too late will need to be done forcefully by large numbers of citizens, and there are too many bystanders that will inhibit and criticize that change. I think student loans don’t get wiped away with bankruptcy, at least not easily. Student loans are like herpes and bankruptcy doesn’t eliminate them. The problem is the amortization schedule that cripples borrowers. It’s like running a marathon for a decade and still you’re still at the starting line. Isn’t it difficult to get student loans discharged through bankruptcy? You really must not know how indentured student loans are Right. Risk on both sides so the higher the risk, the higher the interest, and the more difficult to get the loan. If student loans are wiped in bankruptcy, banks will only loan money to those who can most likely pay it back leaving the disadvantage behind. There are tons of issues with this when you think about it for example if you are a poor black American, good luck with the loan since no one will loan you 40k/year unless you are exceptional with math and sign a contract that you’ll study engineering, etc. Then they should declare bankruptcy. They won’t, because they have outsized earning potential from their degrees, and just want a free ride. [deleted] [deleted] That’s not the actual math, though. The military budget could be cut $74 billion a year and it would be paid for. That’s without raising taxes (which we should) back to about their level under Clinton, or at the very least, Obama. If you’re going to be a reactionary and spew nonsense, I recommend WSB. Yeah, I remember last year when we handed out all of that money in stimulus checks and it doubled our taxes. Oh wait, it didn't affect it at all. And that same amount would relieve 80% of borrowers from student debt. This stupid tax argument is so played out. Every other first world country can do it, so can we. [deleted] Yep, my first few years were a desperate struggle and my life going well now doesn’t mean I can turn my back on the younger half of my generation and the older zoomers who have it even worse than I did. Even I’m not that big a sociopath. So did you sign your loans, or did biden? Is he responsible for paying back, or are you? Still unclear. Im talking about the voters, not the politicians. I agree with everything you mention about the game, ideologies, and goal to make one self rich while serving the public. But getting what you want as a voter is a long game for large fundamental changes, like large debt cancellation. And deciding not to vote to punish your preferred party after less than two years of not getting what you want is not the answer. Its short sided and naïve that somehow not voting will get you what you want. The game will still be played, just without you, and your voice will be lost. Abortion rights are about to be overturned by the Supreme Court and you still refuse to acknowledge political reality. Hogwash This is how our system of government works. Denying reality doesn’t change government policy. > Bleat all you want about high browned concepts that don’t sell. So you admit that all this crap about principles and policy is just for show. Great, that’s all I wanted to make clear. No im not saying it wouldn’t be fair to me. Im saying the government should be giving money to the poor who actually need it. Not you who just wants free money. Most people with college loans are doing stuff well and living good lifestyles. So what’s your argument? “I don’t want to pay because I want the money for free” How about you stop being a child and pay back the money you owe instead of crying for free money that you’re not entitled to? [deleted] Times of very low unemployment, and very high inflation are not usually times the Government stimulates the economy. Such lovely language from someone shaping our youth. No wonder kids are so fucking stupid now Lets go Brandon we going to war with Russia More like cirrhotic More of the ‘cirrhotic and fat with 5 kids’ kind of weakness By ""productivity"" they are mainly talking about GDP, or salary. Do you know what happens if all garbage men suddenly disappear? Food workers? Are they unimportant members of the society just because they don't contribute much to GDP per capita? The loans cannot default though. The loans cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. If you fail to pay, no matter the reason, the government will take the money directly from your paycheck. The only way the loans could ""default"" would be if people paid every cent they made in their entire lives and died still owing a balance. For what it's worth, all of the states I've lived in/looked at living in had fairly generous prices for people who lived in the state. California's is ~$15k/year or $60k for the degree, for example. So staying in your home state for college makes a huge difference. It's a bummer to be that limited, but it is a viable option that doesn't shackle you to debt for life. Dont forget 3) go to a less expensive school and get a job while in school - you don’t have to go out of state or to an expensive college and drop 20k+ per semester. Unfortunately it's largely because loans were created by equal but earning potential of individuals and certain degrees are not. $100K debt for an engineering degree? Easily recouped. $150K debt for gender studies at a private school? Never getting paid back and the borrower will be paying it off into their 50s while working at coffee shops. Couple of things here: For most people entering college in the US student loans are the only way they can pay. Tuition has outpaced what a typical job would pay as well as financial aid if you even qualify. The other thing is you are applying for the loan as an 18 year old with no life experience. The student aid office will happily tell you that it is easy to pay off after college. You don't understand that the interest rate is going to compound the whole time you are in school. No one explains it to you. You don't understand that if you have trouble finding a job that pays enough to start your payments after school the interest is going to compound. No one explains that. Get laid off? Get a forebearance... but interest continues to compound. etc etc. It basically is like a trap. There are also all the forgiveness programs that you will be told about that have ridiculously low acceptance rates. They don't tell you that last part though. Alot of these kids are 18 years old and don't have the best support systems around. They're naive to the dangers of taking out a loan. They may not have parents there to help them. They also may not be going into a career that provides a lot of income. Let's look at a doctors degree in the U.S. [https://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-schools/the-short-list-grad-school/articles/most-expensive-private-medical-schools#:\~:text=The%20median%20cost%20of%20four,Association%20of%20American%20Medical%20Colleges](https://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-schools/the-short-list-grad-school/articles/most-expensive-private-medical-schools#:~:text=The%20median%20cost%20of%20four,Association%20of%20American%20Medical%20Colleges). From the link: The median cost of four years of medical school attendance in 2019-2020 was $250,222 at public institutions and $330,180 at private colleges, according to a fall 2020 report issued by the Association of American Medical Colleges. The salaries are actually very good for surgeons etc in the States and you could pay off your loans quick but thats if you manage to finish your school and get hired and forgo a social life. They don’t care about dollars the way you and I do, though. They use dollars as a leash to keep us working and producing value for them to harvest. They are all made men and women, they have more money than they can spend, so money takes on a different meaning to them. Not arguing with you, I absolutely agree, a general strike is the only way to tell them hey motherfuckers, we’re done with your game. Fuck whatever you promised, we’re coming to the table with these specific demands and we want action, lip service is worth NOTHING. No they won’t. Dems are just as if not even more corrupt. They are worse because they will unashamedly play at your heart strings and say literally anything to get your vote. Republicans can’t pull that off with a straight face. There is no such thing as an honest politician, especially one over 50, they’re the fucking worst I think you mean *there's a chance for student loan forgiveness, as in, there's a lot of irony in using ""theirs"" incorrectly when talking about getting your college retroactively paid for. That's not how it works. Not voting for Democrats guarantees Republicans win power. If you care about student loans, you probably weren't going to vote for a Republican anyway, so a not voting protest just hands the election to them. In contrast, more Democrats in office means they can do more. Right now they have razor thin margins so they have to base policy on the compromise that all their members accept. With a few more votes, they can take bolder positions. In general, disengaging from politics achieves the opposite of what you want. Hello, I know it's hard to believe, but you seem to have been stuck in a time warp for the last several years. There's a lot of recent history to catch up on, so I recommend you do that before you try to engage in politics further. Start with Newt Gingrich, work your way through the Bush years. And boy are you in for a shock when you get to 2016! Oh and watch out for the Jewish space lasers, I hear they're dangerous this year. P.S. - you'll need a mask. Read my other reply in this thread for why that won't play out the way you expect. You’re right, just checked that he did. It will never happen though, no chance the government gives up a huge chunk of assets that is student loans. So you think Trump will help with your student loans? Totally agreed. If you have an educated journeyman electrician who incurred debt to get there from courses, or plumber, or fitter etc. Pay that debt they may owe or finance it for a lot of folks. Since that’s the natural direction it goes. No matter how you cut the damn cookie we all get a nice piece if we’re all more educated. I’m fine but I’m just saying that your argument is pure rubbish based on important economic indicators The bottom 50% of income earners pays like 3% of federal income tax intake, so they’re not really subsidizing anything. Student loan forgiveness is really a wealthy and upper middle class subsidy to everyone else. Make 2 year colleges and trade school fully reimburseable. That will cut the price of a 4 year degree in half, and encourage people who have no business being in college to stop after 2 years. Ending all government loans will crash the price of tuition overnight. Too good for a city/junior college eh? Talk about narcissism , geez. What’s that? Aka career politician tell you one thing to get your vote then ditch you like a hot potato. The question to throw them is: “How do you feel about facing a viable primary challenger in your next race?” [deleted] $15 isn't a livable wage in any state in America You realize all your money tips are already luxury spending that people with student loans never had? That's why people are fighting so hard for debt forgiveness. Because it'll hopefully act as a catalyst to fix the broken system. It's still good we're talking about it. People talk about unfairness but don't really grasp the situation of what people are trying to do in asking for forgiveness. The fact people got 2 years of zero percent interest is *already* incredibly unfair for people who have paid theirs off already or future generations. Let's just fucking fix the broken ass system already, that's ultimately all that matters. The fact that the government's #1 asset is education is crazy. 1) These demographics are not filling the Treasury's coffer with lucre, for various reasons. 2) Where was the indignation when anyone with a pulse and LLC registration got PPP money in addition to the bailing out American auto makers, airlines, and banks? What about the withdrawal of public funding for higher education driving up sticker prices and deterring working class potential first gen students? 3) It's highly likely that forgiven balances would be considered taxable. Because it should be free for everyone who wants to go. proof. share the data. numbers. Soooo true on here Tickled Do you know how a graduated tax bracket works? Explain how society gains on the whole??? Thats the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard almost Hows the world treating you?? Well i can agree with you there because Trump definitely wasnt/isnt a politician!! Spoke his mind even if it offended people unlike joey whose reneged on a few of them campaign pledges he promised The illusion of choice requires that the parties alternate being in power. It is a form of the forever-war. Constant demonization of the ""other"" side. Constant celebrity worship for the politicians on ""our"" side. It's just a game. It's the real reason they'll never support anything but first-past-the-post voting. They aren’t doing any of that stuff either, 😂 you’re acting like they have any agenda other than fundraising. This is who the government really works. They don't solve real problems because then they would have nothing to run on. So instead they make promises when they don't have power that they don't keep when they do. Then the work us all up to vote for them again Both sides do this and this is who they all get rich and we all get suckered. Are you saying people with college degrees are the poors? Must be nice to get preferential treatment in “the free market” 7.5 Definitely not the same as my mortgage, car loans, or any other loans I’ve had. Ya mine went from a $3000 loan one semester to now I owe $60,000. So while I am not surprised by the increase of size, I am absolutely surprised when the increase is so much. I wonder how much of the trillion dollar student debt is a situation similar to mine? Holy fuck you're dense at 17-18 when they enrolled? when everyone around them insisted this was the only way to not end up flipping burgers? (the horror) when their parents and counselors and teachers all told them it was the way to go? I did look into it. I had given up on forgiveness years ago because I couldn’t afford the high payments as soon as my wife started working. The recent communications made it sound like there was a good chance I could seriously shorten the timeline and that payments I made when not on income-based would count (as well as the months over Covid, which I had continued to send money to pay down that principal by over 10 grand so far). So I re-enroll in PSLF and my monthly payments more than DOUBLE to over $1100 - and it would be almost paid off at that rate before the forgiveness would happen, costing me a lot more money and hardship. Here's a sneak peek of /r/PSLF using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/PSLF/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year! \#1: [Waivers will be extended until September 30th](/r/StudentLoans/comments/l18crf/biden_to_extend_waivers_another_nine_months/) | [76 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/PSLF/comments/l18fgx/waivers_will_be_extended_until_september_30th/) \#2: [It’s done.](https://np.reddit.com/r/PSLF/comments/l1myye/its_done/) \#3: [Biden to extend payment pause](https://np.reddit.com/r/PSLF/comments/kwgu8g/biden_to_extend_payment_pause/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot) I’ve paid down the principal a bit during Covid- no interest added over the last year and a half. I started out with income-based when I was the only one working. My payments for the first few years were only $220. The interest skyrocketed the amount owed, but I didn’t pay it much mind since I was going for “forgiveness.” Then my wife started working and they based the income-driven plan on *household* income, asking for close to $900 per month. I could not afford that, so I had to do a forbearance and sign up for the graduated plan, my most recent payments were around $560 per month. That’s the plan that just doubled my payment size. They think I can afford way more than what I can. That’s what I did, and that’s why it jumped up to over $1100. It based it on family income, not just my own. Is this possibly true? It does NOT sound like good advice Tell that to home ownership stats. Maybe you don't care about it, but owning a home is very important to class mobility The progressives just won’t vote. I’m saying he needs to at least keep them excited to vote next time. Most moderates I’m pretty sure have already strayed away. I Hear students complaining about the shit education they get in college, then I ask why should everyone have to pay for a shitty education for many? My weed out class was Accounting 301. Taught by a guy with a thick NYC accent. He worked for EY for a while. Anyway the first day of class he walks in wearing a three-piece suit and gives us a lecture on what success actually means. He says that success and achievement goes beyond anything else that you can have, whether it's money, sex, drugs, anything else is inferior. He then proceeds to say that his class is the hardest class you will ever take in a collegiate setting. He says that his three exams are the hardest exams you will ever take in your collegiate career. And the last thing does before ending class was this: He points to 10 people on the front row and says 4 of you will pass and 6 of you will fail. Yeah he was correct. That was the hardest goddamn class I ever took my life. I studied 40 hours for the final exam and still made a 70, I passed the class with a 70.04 average which was 4/100ths away from failing. I was not an accounting major, I was a finance major. Accounting majors needed a B minus or better to continue on in that program. Finance majors like myself just needed to pass. I remember people who failed and retook it the next semester had a different professor. Her pass rate was I think 60 or 70%. The guy was just a straight up dick in all honesty But at the same time he had a fiery passion for accounting that I've not been able to see from any other professor of mine. I honestly enjoyed his class the most. I was a Com Studies major in college and we had two gateway courses everyone needed to earn a B or higher in to declare for the major. COM 100 was the largest - basic intro to theory, style, the canons and rhetoric. COM 200, on the other hand, was the weeder course. Our professors denied it up and down, but we all knew its true purpose. While Com 100 was held T/R at 11am, Com 200 was a M/W/F 8am course. It's actual name was ""Research and Development Methods"". Most of the sciences and some of the arts programs had these courses built in. Learning Quantitative and Qualitative research methods. The truck was showing up to class. Our professor had daily clicker questions to take attendance. Some were material related, others were just whacky off the wall questions. But it was that one singular aspect of the course that held a lot of weight in your final score. If you showed up everyday and did somewhat well on your two research assignments, you had no issues passing with a B or higher. Now when I did my MBA, the first course was Accounting. Class thinned out just a hair at that time 😏😏 Oh yea I totally agree. I guess what I'm saying is that the quality of your professors isn't determined by whether or not there's a flag football team you can join. But I'm sure there's some causation to be found that more students perform better when active outside of the classroom too. We already do through taxes. Most of those colleges have significant endowments that are ran like hedge funds as well. Think back 20 years ago when college was 3k a year at state schools. It’s now nearly over 30k. The only thing that has changed is greed, states pulling less of their funding into education, and legislation that was passed allowing students to mortgage their lives away in a manner that bankruptcy cannot even allow them peace. And even with those loans being secured essentially until death do they part they still charge higher interest than most new car loans. Yeah I’m two years into college and got a single loan of $5,000 and decided that I’m just gonna pay my way out of pocket instead to prevent myself going down that debt rabbit hole. One of the hospitals in my area actually made their price estimator very simple. You fill out a quick questionnaire on what's wrong and what you need and it will tell you all the expected costs down to the administrative overhead. The other hospitals just will give you an Excel spreadsheet with every possible billing code and expense they have. Good luck finding everything you need. Hopefully the No Surprise Act will make things better. As billed. Doesn't mean your insurer cut them a check for $15k. IDRs are discharged after twenty years. I mean, I guess. Is this actually what progressives are asking for? A transfer of $140B from the treasury to the owners of private student debt through the financial system? That's certainly not something Biden could do unilaterally, and good luck getting that through congress. Superstonk is not a source What makes you think I have a Netflix subscription? Care to articulate your reason for that assumption? Cool, you can accumulate some more personal savings by reducing your monthly expenditures. What you have also unfortunately reduced is your capacity to understand the predatory nature of enrollment quotas and loan allowances, across majors, which don’t limit to a parochial view of “art history” or something similar, in order to experience significant debt. Markets can only allow so many students with jobs that can pay off the rising interest rates of loans and borrowing sums needed to accommodate rising tuition. Something will have to give soon, but mindsets like yourself seem to like the taste of boot leather and “thrive” off univariate, reductionist logic I want them to cut the [administrative bloat](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/21/universities-broke-cut-pointless-admin-teaching), teachers are the product producers and yet they have more admin personnel than producers. No business can survive that. I also want them to go year round like every other business, the school I went to had no summer break, it had 3 full semesters and was able to have 30% more students than the average university while having the same amount of faculty. Professors have a sweet job man, only 30 weeks of work are planned and I know they have stuff in-between semesters but they get a lot of time off, I mean a lot. I also want them to cut the absolute bullshit, LSU has a fucking [Lazy River](https://www.wsj.com/articles/lsus-lazy-river-and-the-student-fee-sham-1513381917) they built onto campus. The system is a mess and it needs to be corrected It's not really unsecured loan. You can not get rid of it without dying or paying or off. Those are the only 2 ways. They are so secure that they are bundled up and sold as securities It’s the government using federal tax money to generate revenue on interest so tax paying citizens can simply get an education. Did you even think before you commented? That’s completely unjustifiable and predatory. There is no reason the government should EVER give rates above conventional GDP growth. Federal govt is collecting interest on these in two ways: the actual loan interest for the term of the loan, the lifetime of higher tax rolls, and lower instance of negative life outcomes that lead to lower govt expenditures on social services. I can’t pretend to speak knowledgeably about how that would impact the economy but I can only imagine that socializing our education system would probably be a good move. Logically they are not the same thing. A tax cut means the government takes less of what belongs to the taxpayer; paying for votes by promising to cancel debt means the government took money from someone else and gave it to the borrower/voter. It’s literally how it works because as citizens it’s our money in our government. By popular opinion we’re telling our government what to do with our money. It’s exactly how it’s suppose to function. I saw that you mentioned Ben Shapiro. In case some of you don't know, Ben Shapiro is a grifter and a hack. If you find anything he's said compelling, you should keep in mind he also says things like this: >The Palestinian Arab population is rotten to the core. ***** ^(I'm a bot. My purpose is to counteract online radicalization. You can summon me by tagging thebenshapirobot. Options: history, covid, dumb takes, civil rights, etc.) [^More ^About ^Ben ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment/wiki/index) ^| [^Feedback ^& ^Discussion: ^r/AuthoritarianMoment ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment) ^| [^Opt ^Out ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment/comments/olk6r2/click_here_to_optout_of_uthebenshapirobot/) From a sheer monetary standpoint this administration has done more than any in nearly 70 years. Not getting everything isn’t the same as nothing. They will never be appeased. Being a progressive means always asking for more. When they don’t get it, they pout and abstain from voting. Tax cuts and deregulation of pretty much everything. Conservative administrations have largely delivered on those two fronts. Tax cuts, deregulation, more abortion laws, and 2nd amendment protection. and those young, but increasingly disillusioned, voters age into versions of their parents because they’ve been beat down by the system. or better yet, they just don’t vote because they know their voice will never be heard. and here we are. nothing changes. You still don’t get it. It’s still “someone else” that is the problem to you… I don't like it either, but the reason they're debating to gut Roe is because it keeps people invested in more culture war nonsense. Turn the working class against itself and you don't have to worry about them rising up. Worst-case scenario, you can just hire one half of the working class to fight the other half and they'll all keep going to work for peanuts as long as they get a chance to step on the other guy. Why would you vote for a terrible candidate just because they have a good chance of winning? I'd rather vote for the best (certainly not perfect) candidate than continue to support the parade of corporate-serving liars that have been in office for decades. At the very least, stop re-electing people who lie and do their best to make things worse while treating Americans like children. Vote against the incumbents unless you're lucky enough to find a good one. Rewarding bad behavior because the 'other side is worse' only encourages more bad behavior. You either waste your vote or you vote evil. Only one has a chance of making things better. A lot of young people and POC fell for the “stop the trump menace” in 2020. The racist orange monkey won’t be there in 2022. Dems will need to go knock on the doors of those white soccer moms if they want to get re-elected. We know how well that works. As for stopping the erosion of Democracy, there’s an old saying, “We didn’t start the fire.” What a great way to make your opinion irrelevant Interesting. You believe Trump to be a fascist while the current landscape of time we live in under Biden took his voice away from Twitter. Oh, don't forget all the beatings and property damage Conservatives suffered who showed support for Trump. Or all the harassment conservatives received just by wearing a MAGA hat or saying anything that remotely could be interpreted as supporting Trump. I haven't seen or hear of a single event where Conservatives harassed progressives for simply showing support to Biden in real life. Online doesn't count. But yanking hats off of heads, stealing yard signs, attacking vehicles with bumper stickers, harassing people with conservative paraphernalia. None I have seen occur since Biden took office. I also don't remember there being any riots and people screaming in the streets when he was elected either. What I DO remember is all of that behavior coming from the Left during Trump's presidency because they didn't get their way and took their hate for a man they'd never met out on anyone who they thought supported him. Tell me, sir/madame: what is YOUR definition of fascism because I've seen more things being discussed or presented that are far closer to fascism happen under Biden's administration than Trump's. Hell, there wasn't any under Obama. After you answer that question, tell me what made Trump fascist. My mom. She and I are having long talk about this. She’s trying to blame my dad on this… Germany doesn't let everyone get a college degree, you have to test into it. In the USA you can find a college that will take you. Defence also provides stimulus to the economy, in a large way. Your advising to rob Peter to pay Paul essentially. “Spend $50 billion on these people, instead of the people who are employed in the defence sector and would be laid off”. That’s a solution a teenager would come up with…or perhaps a recent university graduate Even with the debt, the net worth of those with college degrees is still higher. And it only becomes more pronounced the more advanced the degree is. The Census Bureau has data on this: https://www.census.gov/data/tables/2019/demo/wealth/wealth-asset-ownership.html Engineers, architects, scientists, teachers, doctors, lawyers. The modern world needs them all. So education just stops being a right when it becomes profitable? That’s weird. So my friends who got their medical degrees in Syria for no debt are just outliers to this grand superior American system? Get the fuck outta here. Colleges cost tons of money because they are profit machines, not because they are somehow notably different educational institutions. I never said anything of the sort. So the reason self taught programmers are being paid so well is because there is high demand and low supply. The reason so many are struggling with college degrees is because those degrees are in low demand. Which goes against your thesis entirely. The fact is a lot of these college degrees are not required and are in fact worthless. No luck necessary. I've been a self employed software consultant for over a decade now and in the industry for 15 years. I know from experience this is good advice. The main issue is that sorting through lots of candidates is hard. Degrees act as an easy filter. Add on that good candidates generally get degrees anyway and sorting for the rare good worker that doesnt have a degree isnt worth it. But if fewer talented people had degrees, the equation would change and we would see more companies grabbing talented degree less employees. Its impossible. And Biden wrote the bill that made em that way. [deleted] Only government backed loans. There always has been and will always be a litany of reasons why you wouldn't want to lend money to the poorest and most frequently left behind. Luckily, this is a public policy decision, not a business decision, so we don't have to worry about money and finance doing the thing it always does anyway. It will do all of that just fine without any further intervention. The focus of public policy is what's best for the nation. Are you really that dense? If getting a college degree guaranteed a large salary and no issues in repayment nobody would be having this conversation in the first place. The fact that we are at all should have been your first great big fucking hint that you're completely wrong. It is a good thing if they are creating goods and services with their demand (and creating additional supply or both those things). If they are just bidding up existing assets it’s just more inflation. I’m generalizing. This isn’t about you specifically. Your math is off by a factor of about 6. 20 million current college students in any given year paying an average tuition of $23k per year (private 39k /public OOS 22k /public IS 10k) is an annual tuition bill of $460B. And with it being free, you can expect more people to attend and more people to go to more expensive schools. I’m not the one spewing nonsense. Also, it’s unsurprising that you want to take money away from other people to pay for it. Because I contribute 30% of my income to the government obviously. Any other dumb questions? [deleted] They are being overturned while a Democrat is in office. I don’t understand what your point is or how Democrats protect women’s rights. [deleted] People vote for those that make their life better. Sorry you needed someone to state the obvious. Ideally, we create new areas of revenue and use that new income to build out much needed assistance programs for the middle class. Taxing things currently illegal, mainly marijuana is a big push in the media. There’s other things too, and I’m not saying legalize everything by any means. Rather rationally looking at our society and trying to look at what has applicable benefits to people, and so on. You can change the corporate tax rate. It was quite a bit higher in the 1950’s. Concerns there being prices increasing, however, the argument can be made that corporations would increase the cost of goods regardless. There’s also the defense budget which is a hot topic among many liberals. Me, personally, I’d like to see a balance sheet (and idk if there is a public one available) of what we are spending money on in that budget. Transparency would be nice as then we can have people who lead sit down and discuss what we can and can’t cut. For example maybe DOD doesn’t need to pay for a lavish lunch for Boeing and Lockheed Martin execs to show military leaders a new plane, not saying this happens as I don’t fucking know, but it’s what we call a hypothetical example. Certainly we can logically look at ways to generate revenue that pays off the deficit, creates a surplus, and puts all US citizens in a good place. It’s sort of like working two jobs, we clearly as a nation are spending more than we make, spending isn’t getting cut, we really shouldn’t increase income taxes on our people, so let’s get new revenue going. Marijuana being legal and having a federal tax to it is a start, rebalancing the budget is a start. I’m sorry for the long answer, but I’m not just a doofus troll who says “tax Elon and Jeff, death to amazon”. There’s a way we can do it, but it’s a lot of hard work. The bummer is it doesn’t seem like anyone wants to put the work in to get us there. Granted most people probably stoped reading, and no one really gives a shit what I have to say so ima just go fuck off now. We’ve stimulated corporations all pandemic.. check out the daily rrp You realize that QE doesn’t last forever right Lol so because I’m a teacher I can’t swear? Listen hear champ plenty of teachers swear, I say it what the fuck in my head about 20 million times a day. This is also the internet, not a classroom. And I am the stupid one? Get fucked In the second sentence of my original post I specifically call out the contribution of educated workers to America’s GDP. So, yes, GDP is precisely what I’m talking about. This article and my comments are surrounding Federal Student Loans. The Federal Government and the strength of the American economy are measured largely in part by the Gross Domestic Product. If sanitation workers go on strike a city, town, village, etc. will be thrown into chaos as it is buried in its own waste. There are numerous examples of this that are a great testament to the power of workers and unions. I myself was a food worker and I take to heart the working conditions and low pay of food workers throughout the country. When I worked in restaurants I made the Federal Minimum Wage for tipped employees; $2.13 per hour. Two decades later the Federal Minimum Wage for tipped employees is still $2.13 per hour. I find it shameful that there has been no increase in this pay despite two decades of inflation. The American norm of tipping allows businesses to transfer their costs of business to customers while essentially providing them with free labor. I would love to see an America where tipping is abolished and workers are paid a living wage via an increase in the Federal Minimum Wage. If a business cannot afford to operate while paying its own employees then that business has failed under Capitalism. I believe that all members of American society are valuable, whatever they do. That is precisely why in my original post I supported the education and health of all American workers. Sounds like what banks do best, sugarcoating their product. And even if somehow 18 year-old can be well-informed before signing the loan, they don’t have much of a choice other than taking the loan because otherwise they are not getting the education. I understand better now, thank you. [deleted] Plus that takes 10 to 12 years to complete. Not everyone has the luxury of that much time without making money. This. Basically rich geriatric folks deciding whether or not you can participate in the economy meaningfully in your lifetime. Cancelling the loans would be more meaningful than any infrastructure bill or whatever other political crap is in the pipeline. this is the way. Rubbish. Are you a Republican? Sorry yeah grammar mistake, but I trust us big brained apes can understand the bigger message.. So if Trump and Biden are literally tied in my state, and my vote is the last one cast, and I leave the presidential race blank or vote third party, they give my vote to Trump? So sick of dipshit slave logic. Keep empowering your abusers out of fear of a worse abuser. Homie, you’ve got the wrong idea about me, i’m way further left than biden is. I’ve got solar panels on my roof and 3 jabs in my arm. Look at what we call centrist liberals compared to what other countries call centrist liberals. Half our democrats are right-wing, ideologically. you. don’t. get. it. we keep voting democrats into office and things don’t play out how they are sold to us by those democrats. myself and many people i know are done being abused and dragged through this perpetual culture war. i’m not voting for another president until i get a choice that is worthy of being president; not some geriatric piece of shit that should be in a retirement home. if that triggers you, tough shit. sometimes the only way to break an abuser is to stop playing their game and stop reacting to their abuse. the system is designed to perpetuate this shit. i will not participate anymore. Why not they pay that much in the military budget every year... Forgiveness shouldnt be the full amount but some percentage. No. But nor will Biden. > No matter how you cut the damn cookie we all get a nice piece if we’re all more educated. I take the opposite view. We are currently in an ever escalating arms race to prove we are more educated than the other guy. So now instead of a high school diploma or 2 year degree, you need 4 or 6 years because everyone else is getting a 4 year degree too. And we give up our most valuable resource for this, time. Everyone is worse off having to spend more time on getting credentials and less on building wealth. Not my fault these kids don't want to go to community colleges. Not what I am addressing. ""demanding people (pay) what they owe"". Can't simultaneously demand they pay what they owe while also saying he would eliminate $10k and expect to be taken seriously. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2021-08-06/report-15-hourly-wage-isnt-livable-anywhere-in-the-us Report: $15 Hourly Wage Isn't Livable Anywhere in the U.S. Despite making more than double the federal minimum wage, families relying on $15 an hour wouldn’t make enough to cover necessities such as food, rent and health care. [deleted] Odd. Somebody should tell those with student loans that. Perhaps a massive advertising campaign that targets cities like Seattle? I agree In a perfect world, but we’re very far from that And if a frog had winds it wouldn't bump its ass when it landed. How it ""should be"" doesn't, hasn't and won't ever matter to an adult. Abfg358 that right there proves everything Don’t need to justify anything to you. If you’re interested, do some research. Yup i do because i pay taxes lol When the majority of your adults entering the workforce aren’t saddled with heavy debt loads, they can contribute to the economy. More money into the local economy means more jobs, more tax collected, more growth. People take jobs they want, not the job that shows them to be relieved of their debt. If this is the dumbest thing you’ve ever heard, I would love to hear the most intelligent thing you’ve heard Like everyone else. Yup and when it comes to fundraising ""they"" is everyone. K then, let’s just ignore a 1.9 trillion dollar infrastructure bill, or the appointment of ~50 qualified federal judges. I’m not saying “they” are perfect but we’re making progress something that is sorely needed because we had four years of regression. This morning, I considered no longer voting. That is exactly it. It’s always been it. I’m not young anymore - in our twenties we are all starry-eyed about everything they will solve. Then election after election you realize they are full of it. And even when they do pass a bill that helps-80% of the $ goes to their buddies and they beat their chest about how great they are. By the time you are older… you are just always pissed. May be the reason old people are R - because they are tired of giving them their $ for nothing. I’m not there yet, but fiscally I do get it. Still have hope. You do realize not everyone with loans has a degree? You also do realize that there are baristas with bachelors degrees right? ""Free market??"" Do you even know what words mean??? GOVERNMENT-ISSUED loans is not free market. In fact, that sounds more like central planning than anything. Fucking dimwits. If student loan debt was paid off, would that not be preferential treatment compared to home owners who may have taken on a larger loan during times of inflation? The poor got a check. Companies got PPP. So you have been paying less than $300 a month for 10 years now? Because $300 a month should have covered interest on 48k. I really wish high schools did a better job of explaining college loans to kids That’s a borderline predatory rate, it’s not a federal loan is it? Can you refinance and still qualify for PLFP? It is ridiculous how loose the credit markets are with handing out money, and how much harm it does to people. !?!?!? The only difference is that student loans allow you to pay based on income and not on a plan to have it paid off in a set number of years. So for those that elect to take that option and pay less than their interest then then size of the loan grows. I hope you get your loan forgiven due to public service but I have heard that is very difficult to get approved so please have a plan b. Kinda puts into perspective how stupid our educators are, doesn’t it? What's your household income if you don't mind me asking? I had this issue back when I was married because We had a joint income and we were paying about 500$. I don’t know if it would help to file separately but now that I’m divorced I pay 13 dollars. But to be paying 1100 on an income based repayment plan means you already make a lot of money. There are also other plans available tiered ones that start small and grow and a few other options. Unfortunately sounds like your duel incomes are why your rate is so high. I know a pretty world famous professor in his field. This is exactly what he does, what are they gonna do. It’s that classic issue of “if I owe a bank $100, it’s my problem. If I owe the bank 100k it’s their problem” I’m not sure if it’s the right answer but damn. It sure beats drowning. I do wish you all the best. I owe 50k myself. Not looking forward to when payments resume. Engineering math B was the 9th circle of hell taught by a Japanese professor. This guy walks in on the first day of class and just starts doing math on the chalkboard( mind you this 2018). No introduction or syllabus overview, just fucking math from someone know could understand when he talked. Seems like universities struggle to find that balance between creating a engaging academic environment filled with great professors and research but also creating a livable semi-city. I agree with the rest of your points. The large class halls are a joke, I usually encountered those in my GEs. [deleted] The fed could do it, which Biden has some degree of indirect control over. This is 100% all massive hypotheticals though and shouldn't be done without a simultaneous overhaul of the system. It's mechanically how you *could* do it though Your dismissive response that has no thought behind it mostly. Now go binge Orange is the new black. I’ve no time for your brand of simplemindedness. Mind sets like mine prove mindsets like yours are nothing but fairy dust. No one told you to spend 90k on a degree you could have gotten for a 3rd of the price because you wanted a fancy degree from a fancy school everyones heard of to justify your degree instead of being practical and going to an affordable local or community college. No one forced anyone to sign the dotted lines on predatory loans. No one forced anyone to take out these loans. The average person could work through college and be free of major loans that cripple, but that would involve a lot of hard work which most of you aren’t willing to do. It’s time that blame started being dished more realistically when it comes to the higher education debt conversation. Unless you a part of the NCAA you don’t have a clue what predatory and college mean together. Unsecured means not backed by collateral. E.g., a mortgage is secured by the borrower’s house. It doesn’t mean it’s “secure” in the sense that there is low risk of nonpayment. [deleted] The interest rate of 5%-8% does not adequately compensate the government for the risk of the loans, which is why a private lender would never offer rates that low. Thus, the gov’t it is in fact subsidizing college education for borrowers. Do the tax breaks even benefit the average republican? Tax breaks for the rich isn't doing shit to benefit the general population. Meanwhile, the forgiveness of student debt or some incentive (0% interest) would benefit a large population that is currently unable to buy a home or start a family due to student debt [deleted] You do realize that if a tax break is giving, where yes less money is taken from a tax payer, they have to recoup that money in some way or reduce the budget somehow. The government in taxes operate similar to a company. If revenue gets reduced due to less sales or higher cost to produce they either increase the price(in this analogy increase taxes in other brackets or use other methods to recoupe the losses) or reduce operating expenses by firing or eliminating whole departments or factories(which would be funds taken out of the piggy bank such as social security or entire departments recieving less funding), so just cause the government giving a tax cut or giving money doesn't always result in a withdrawl in your account it will result in someone else having to pay the price and at least with college loan forgiveness it will benefit people and the economy a lot more with younger people being able to live independently and purchase their own house as well as older people who are still shouldering student loan debt now have more cash available to them whereas tax breaks normally only affect one particular income bracket. Lol, Mr. Bot. I think Ben Shapiro is a nob. Don't you worry. On surface yes. But the voters aren't smart enough to realise that only the wealthy are getting the tax cuts and the deregulation is for big companies only. They are getting fucked while waiting their turn Think every admin since Regan fits that bill >they just don’t vote because they know their voice will never be heard"" You seem to be encouraging such foolishness. No, you don’t understand how things actually work. I know my vote is “canceled” by the vast majority of religious fanatic republicans in my city, county, and state…but I still vote. The elderly typically vote for the conservative candidates and they ALWAYS have better turn out at the polls. Hell, you can’t even get most younger people to vote for President much less their local officials. I voted for what was there. Wasting your vote has a chance of making things better? That’s your point here? [deleted] I don’t care about how trump supporters feel. When my city was being ravaged by covid and filled with morgues trump supporters celebrated because democrats were dying. When my paycheck is taxed to shit and redistributed to red states that won’t pay for schools or roads or better infrastructure republicans celebrate because their poor choices in leadership are subsidized by my hard work. When I elected a democrat trump supporters went to the capital and took part in an illegal, seditious coup attempt against the democracy of the United States of America and tried to run busses of citizens supporting the other team off of the highway. The facts are that trump supporters do not want to live in democracy and show disdain for that at every turn. Facts don’t care about your feelings, remember? I’m sorry you were lied to, but I’ve lied to my kids too. Wow seems to be a manufactured American only problem huh Sorry, that’s shortsighted. Spending money on education also has a multiplier effect as well as being good for more of the population than just those in defense. It grows the economy. You mean to tell me those people employed in defense can’t be employed in other industries? Boosting the economy would help those people in the long run. The money we spend on “defense” could pay for free college and other worthwhile national efforts. Healthcare for example. Edit: one take from marketwatch: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/bidens-free-college-proposals-could-boost-economy-by-160-billion-critics-say-it-would-cost-600-billion-11611250984 Agree. Defense jobs are the few high paying jobs that can’t just get sent to China or India. What’s your point???? Just because they have a higher net worth doesn’t mean they aren’t struggling 69% of Americans have less than $1,000 in savings. We’re comparing poor oranges to slightly less poor tangerines here. Both sides need economic stimulus for different reasons…or else the middle class is going to drastically shrink As someone who does science and engineering, I use very little of what I learned in college. College shouldn’t be profitable and it also shouldn’t be a guaranteed basic human right. Not every single person needs to go to college the same way we need guaranteed water, food, and shelter. It still has to cost something to someone. Take a chill pill man [deleted] [deleted] This is a very reductive view of both borrowing and lending that misses the forest for the trees. This is like saying that the abolition of company store credit instead of pay was too intrusive because both parties know risks. There is clearly a power imbalance between lenders and borrowers that doesn’t exist in any other type of debt scenario. A lot of people choose not to pay these loans because the interest rates are lower than expected equity returns, or their desire to spend in the short term. That’s one (of several) reason why many politicians making mid-six figures still have them. I’m aware that the rules around student loans are unique as a result of the unique asset students get (you cannot discharge an education during a bankruptcy proceeding). Nevertheless, there’s no good reason why these loans should get more special treatment than any other contract with potential to go wrong for one party. At the end of the day, the people who took the loans are far more responsible for them than taxpayers are. [deleted] [deleted] This is only for public universities up to a 4 year degree and provides tuition free attendance to all enrolled us citizens. Why would we pick up the tab for private universities? Or college beyond an undergrad degree? That’s not ever been what was discussed with this topic. [deleted] Lol. so the conservatives are going to be shocked by the moderate republicans and the democrats are going to be shocked by the progressives. So yuore telling me a moderate candidate would actually win? You're fucking crazy. You'll be riddled with your student loan debt for the rest of your life with that attitude. Good luck to you. Do you think Biden can stop the Supreme Court? Do you seriously not understand how the president appoints Supreme Court justices and how cases make their way through the federal courts? Trump winning in 2016 is the reason why the Supreme Court is 6-3 conservative instead of 5-4 liberal. Your failure to vote for Hillary is the reason why roe v wade is dead. This is just nonsense. You're pardoning the mass shooter and bitching out the ER doctor for not saving everyone. It’s not fear mongering if it’s explicitly what the other side is running on. The Supreme Court has been lost for a generation. They are about to roll back womens rights 50 years. And y’all still refuse to acknowledge political reality because it’s inconvenient. I like how you admit that you and your fellow progressives have no principles, but somehow manage to turn it around on me. Lol Does it tho? And the student loan process is literally just a few mouse clicks to accept a debt burden- it feels surreal when the “government” emails you and says “do you want a direct deposit of $4k or $8k to cover your tuition this semester?” *click click click* I’ve got $8k coming my way! That’s predatory when it’s that easy to get a loan without any concern of how you can repay... or if you can. The fallacy being that “all college degrees lead to high paying jobs.” That’s not the case at all. People without degrees earn those jobs too. Not OP but here is my two cents: even if that 18 year old understands the concept of compound interest, for many people taking out loans is the only way to go to school, even if you also get a part time job. Plus, a lot of teens are pressured by parents and guidance counselors, and also by the schools who take their money, presenting a false picture of the reality of how much money they can expect to make after graduation. Add to that the ridiculous expectations of employers who insist on having a degree before they hire someone entry level for a job that really doesn't require a degree, and you have the perfect storm. Not everyone has good choices, unfortunately. It's expensive to be poor. I'm not sure you understand how voting works, to be honest. But rather than calling me, a random stranger on the internet, a slave, a more effective outlet for your anger would be to call your representative to let them know how important this is to you. Then I recommend you don't try to discourage people from voting for Democrats, because centrist Democrats are definitely not Republicans these days, even if you want them to be further left. And congrats on the solar panels! Well, then you certainly won't get student loan relief... If you don’t vote then your opinion really doesn’t matter at all lmao. Vote for Trump then. Just don't act like its rational or moral. I don’t think you understand how corruption works cheerio mate That’s incredibly short sighted, and wealth is based upon ROI, which an educated workforce provides. Think about the most educated counties in the world, are they worse off for being that way? Not in the Midwest Why are you inserting yourself into my asking somebody else for proof of their claims? I am not interested in what you have to say on this matter. Start your own thread. 1.9 trillion pared down from the 6-8 we need, which policy out of all that expense, do you find most engaging? I bet the average person couldn’t name one now that all the good stuff has been sacrificed on the alter of corporate donations [deleted] Define regression. Fuel prices through the roof, inflation through the roof, covid cases though the roof. What alternate world are you in? I quit after Clinton’s bullshit during the 2016 primary. They made it abundantly clear then that they couldn’t care less about what we want. Yeah obviously. But the US Census PINC data show, on average, people with BA degrees significantly out earn those without them. More like propping up the market on the backs of taxpayers. Can't ever let the market fail. Must socialize risk and privatize profit. Hmm. I didn’t know that the Dunning-Kruger effect also encompasses lack of reading comprehension, and contextual sarcasm. But then again, why wouldn’t it really? Thanks for you’re reply. It was very brave and very big of you to do that. What exactly do you think “bankruptcy” is exactly? Survivors bias is strong with you Student loans don’t build equity like a house does…. There didn’t dodge it for ya. Hahahahahahah you stupid fuck A 120k loan you had to had (literally “you need college” don’t that sound familiar) And a 9.70$ job Lmao what the fuck man why don’t you just want people to be alright? I’m excited for the day you leave your parents house and have more than a few hundred a month in bills lol I would go out on a limb that at some point he/she wasn't able to afford it, and thus put it into forbearance. My loan when I originally took it was around $300 per month. I put it into forbearance for 3 years when I had just graduated and was broke before I got a job that paid enough for me to cover all my private and federal student loans. Since Great Lakes allowed 36 months of forbearance, that was the one I needed to not pay. Instead of paying $300 per month since I couldn't afford it, I had the luxury of watching the loan increase by $400 per month which got added straight to the principal and would be included in interest calculations. 401K's are amazing because of their compounded interest. My student loans in forbearance essentially had reverse compounded interest, causing my loans to grow exponentially before I could afford to get myself out of it. My original loan amount easily got tacked onto it about 75% additional in that time. I'm still far over my original loan amount after paying for like 9 years... and I paid the loan for the entirety of the pandemic while the interest was frozen. The system is totally messed up, and it's not from a lack of people trying to pay their loans. Because it’s probably a fake story. People on here make shit up all the time. Most student loans don’t average over 7% either. It’s basic math, but people just think if they keep fighting they can get free stuff and that somehow society can function while simultaneously giving free stuff. A lot of us can kinda figure this out on our own too. He’s obviously bullshitting. He has 13k left on the loan and owes 56k. That’s mathematically not possible because student loans don’t have penalties for early payment and they aren’t running at loan shark rates. He can also lump sum and pay it off with one payment of like ~13k. When I went to college my loans had a 12.5% and 12.75% rate on them. It took me over 10 years to get the principal balance below what I borrowed. Sallie Mae and the other predatory lenders were all fined for being ridiculous with their interest rates, my rates were adjusted down to a reasonable number, but that didn't shave anything off my balance. The loans now are much more reasonable, but there was a time when we were getting screwed to the wall and no one cared. I'm still paying on my loans and I think the only fair thing that could have been done was that the ridiculous interest capitalization that occured to me should have been forcefully adjusted to rectify the predatory nature of the loans. This also doesn't account for when I was making extra payments for years and they never applied it to principal like I asked, they ""advanced"" my payment date and still collected interest on the principal compounded daily. Eventually that got sorted out after a few years, but anyone in that situation was being charged interest they shouldn't have been charged. No, if you advance pay they advance pay on the same calculated interest. They don’t let you advance pay on the principal. This is exactly what happened to me. If I knew anything about money or real life I would not have done it. And your parents? And everyone else offering the same advice? And they don’t care that my wife has over 100k of her own loans as well LOL, yeah anything engineering is a nightmare. Right. It's literally a negotiation. They start high, knowing the insurance company will tell them what they're willing to pay. Believe me many eyes are on both sides of the transaction. Oh, so you have no reason other than ""This person disagreed with me, therefore netflix"". Good job, big guy. I bet your parents hang all your drawings up on the fridge, huh? Your comment shows a complete lack of awareness of average college cost (tuition + books + insurance + room, etc) and pre-college grad earned wages. Look at how these numbers have inflated over the decades and how improbable it would be to pay these off. For community college, you’d still have to transfer to a 4 year university, in which at least half of the cost will be incurred. You can indeed reduce costs this way but de facto you are still ending up with a large lump sum. Your comments come across as incredibly idealistic and not rooted in our current economy. You deferred to offering a “don’t go to college” alternative, which in logic is slippery and considered moving the goal posts. Please start with average costs and loan distribution required for coverage, some of your proposed “alternatives”, and perhaps how coercision is not the only way people are roped into doing things. “Left with little choice” is not force but it implies the lack of lateral mobility I hope you turn this same view on the creditors issuing these loans and are adamantly opposed to the inability to discharge these loans in bankruptcy. The collateral is literally your future. Did you ever think you’d have to clarify that on r/finance? Totally secured, they're backed by the US govt. Collecting on unsecured loans is much harder. They can trash your credit pretty easily, but things like wage garnishments are much more expensive and difficult to do. Secure loans are easy because there is something to seize with a streamlined court process. Private lenders refi for much, much less after you graduate They are secured loans that can’t be discharged almost under any circumstance. They are basically fully risk-adjusted. Even conventional risk-free assets like treasury notes only garner 2-3%. It has nothing to do with fairness. I’m not making a policy argument. I’m merely pointing out how tax cuts are not the same as transfer payments. This is a total nonsense response. I saw that you mentioned Ben Shapiro. In case some of you don't know, Ben Shapiro is a grifter and a hack. If you find anything he's said compelling, you should keep in mind he also says things like this: >The Palestinian Arab population is rotten to the core. ***** ^(I'm a bot. My purpose is to counteract online radicalization. You can summon me by tagging thebenshapirobot. Options: sex, history, civil rights, feminism, etc.) [^More ^About ^Ben ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment/wiki/index) ^| [^Feedback ^& ^Discussion: ^r/AuthoritarianMoment ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment) ^| [^Opt ^Out ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment/comments/olk6r2/click_here_to_optout_of_uthebenshapirobot/) Why won't you debate me? ***** ^(I'm a bot. My purpose is to counteract online radicalization. You can summon me by tagging thebenshapirobot. Options: sex, novel, history, civil rights, etc.) [^More ^About ^Ben ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment/wiki/index) ^| [^Feedback ^& ^Discussion: ^r/AuthoritarianMoment ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment) ^| [^Opt ^Out ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment/comments/olk6r2/click_here_to_optout_of_uthebenshapirobot/) A chance. A chance that enough people will choose a better tomorrow rather than the lesser of two evils. And by your definition at least 49% of voters are wasting their vote every single time. Being a single issue voter is a terrible way to participate in democracy. Especially this incredibly un-thought-out issue. ""I have to pay the loans I agreed to pay, whaaaa now I'm just going to vote for the party stopping any and all change, outlawing abortion, not caring about mass shootings, pushing a Christian agenda, tax cutting the rich, blocking health care reform, anti mask, government shutdowns and no regulations for big business"" Lol you've fallen off your rocker, haven't you? What world do you live in? I asked two specific questions and you responded with this diatribe of garbage. And before you think about attacking me, I was never a Trump supporter. So I'll ask you again: what does fascist mean, and why do you believe Trump is fascist? And lol at everything you said. None of it is even remotely true. Totally. A higher net worth would, in fact, indicate they aren’t struggling as much as those without college degrees. A low amount of savings may only mean that some Americans are just bad at saving. And I think my point is that the majority of that 69% will be those less educated since there’s a connection between education and income/net worth. Ok, so let’s just stop the flow of students to University and see how quickly the US descends from technological world leader into a third world work camp My bad man, I just have zero tolerance for nonsense arguments. Again, my bad. Modern society needs college graduates to function. We’re just arguing who should fit the bill or get educated Well that’s purely wrong, many people with external degrees get residency in the US. You make salaries sound like they are as volatile as bitcoin. We probably need to get down to actual data at this point and I don't have time to do that (although it would be fun). But if I had to guess it's that salaries have been flat or increasing in the majority of fields and you can get a rough picture of where you will be when you graduate. Debt only gets cheaper with inflation after all. I'd be inclined to believe the problem is not a bunch of kids graduating into fields with rapidly declining salaries. Rather, it's that they never bothered to look in the first place and instead chose their degree based on factors other than salary without looking at the cost. The ""if I just get a degree society will take care of me"" factor. [deleted] Nobody is or should be interested in moral hair splitting arguments about this issue. It's fucking stupid. Go back to kindergarten if you want to whine about what is and isn't fair. Look around, people are fucking dying because they can't afford insulin and 19 year olds are buying Lambos for playing videogames on YouTube. The world isn't fucking fair, it never will be, and fairness is all but completely irrelevant when writing policy. No and I don’t think it will be perpetually…but it very well could be for a few years and legislation like that this year would just exacerbate it I voted for Obama, Clinton, and Biden in that order since I became voting age. You can’t just see something you disagree with and call it a right wing bully conspiracy. The taxes on the wealthy will not go up to pay for student loans. Working class tradespeople will see tax increases. Who were told they were futureless by their teachers because they were not going to college. It is a sure fire way to piss off the working class. This might be a hit with progressives, but the average person(who does still exist) will see their taxes increase because of it. Idc if someone is in student loan debt. I didn’t take those loans, and I didn’t tell people they were futureless without college. Just like I NEED a car, or I NEED a house. The necessity of those things does not make them free and people don’t want to just pay off my car or mortgage(which I don’t have) just because I bit off more than I could chew. Like the left(my side) says all the time about the Jan 6th riots, actions have consequences. So why would we forgive loans for private colleges or OOS schools? (Which is what is proposed) So airlines are paying back their bailout? What about PPP borrowers? What about banks that require repo - where does that money come from? I voted for Clinton, firstly. Secondly, he could pack the court. He won’t though. Bad analogy, buster. The ER doc has also fired a few shots into the crowd. Hey dude as a real progressive I care about a few basic things. That the working man gets his fair share, that tomorrows air, water and land is better than todays, and we don’t let people go hungry, sick or mire in poverty. If that doesn’t jive with your idea of progressive I suggest you revisit the core meaning of the word, “progress.” You should go ask Turkey or Zimbabwe [deleted] I’m in regular contact with my representatives and I do understand how voting works. Once you get on a list of people who writes checks large enough to require reporting, they don’t leave you alone. The problem is that our constitution is deeply flawed. The two party system is easily resolved by a parliamentary system. We’re running a beta test for representative democracy, and it shows. I decided after Obama that I would only vote for somebody running for a federal office who is worthy of that office. No more “lesser of two evils” voting. I have left quite a few blank, voted for a couple of third party candidates, but not one federal candidate from the two main parties has been worthy of the office they were running for on any of my ballots since 2010. Thanks, had to put them up myself, and I love them. I know the gop would have us march into the climate apocalypse in a christian police state, but the centrist (read: *old*) dems would definitely have us sleepwalk back under the status quo and raw deal we had before covid. Their ties to financial elite are absolutely just as strong as republicans’, and biden is the best example. Will I vote for progressives in primaries? Absolutely. Will I get out and vote for dems in my state and congress? Yes, I will, definitely. I don’t think non-participation is a real answer. Will I vote for biden if he doesn’t make major, above-and-beyond moves on the things he promised? I really don’t know. I would rather the people solve these issues in the streets than just say ‘oh well at least he talked about solutions, guess we all lose again’ as we start to choke on the atmosphere. We could have had Bernie, for fuck’s sake. no, just the slow and entirely preventable collapse of our country. seems like a fine trade off to me. lol, if you’re going to discuss rationality and morality, maybe you should actually apply it yourself. all you offered was a cognitive distortion. that is the opposite or rationality. [deleted] You’re the one who asked for proof…I doubt you’d even understand the so called proof I can’t say I disagree, but saying a bill that actually goes towards helping all Americans because of long term problems isn’t good is just being negative for the sake of being so. Of course the Biden build back better plan (BBBB) would’ve been the dream in its initial form with massive investments into affordable housing, plus expansions to Medicare & Medicaid, and climate change. Sure you’re right at least in the cases of Manchin and Sinema but Biden is president with a very tight coalition and when people complained about nothing happening they chopped it into ‘smaller’ (still historically massive) bills so they’d have something to show for the first year of the administration. ? I think we are saying the same thing. Government-issued loans is socializing risk and privatizing profit. Then, when it fails, dumb people are like ""the free market failed us!"" timeout for people who can't hold up their end of the deal. Nice dodge The point is that contracts are binding. Letting one group of people out of a contract is prefferential but its always a matter of perspective. Stating that a home builds equity and a student loan does not is a silly take. Is there anything more valuable than knowledge? Plenty of people have found themselves upside down in a home loan. ""Had to had"" [deleted] When I graduated in 2010 my average was 10.25%, with some over 13%. I've since paid them off, but only through luck. Loan forgiveness would be a much needed boost to the middle class and economy. What year did you graduate? Graduating in 2010 I think mine were fixed at 4 and 6%. 12 is hard to fathom. Kinda regret snowballing all off asap when I first got into PF 5 years ago. Would have been some sweet sweet market gains. This isn’t even true. You can absolutely make extra payments, you may have to elect that those be made to the principal and not towards future payments but saying extra payments are not allowed is just incorrect. False - at least for any loans backed by DOE. No, my parents were financially literate and encouraged me to pursue a trade because we couldn’t afford college. Now I live pretty comfortably without any debt. Many of my teachers were quite dumb outside the confines of academia. I’m sorry to hear it’s affecting you so much. Have you tried consolidating them? Just getting it so all of your loans are at 1 rate instead of multiple rates? Satire, much like responsible spending, is clearly lost on you and yours… I award you no point and my god have mercy on your liberal arts degree. You’re right, thousand of people who do it every year just lack all sense of awareness… How can we be so unaware and ahead of the game yet you’re aware and behind the 8 ball? Time to face reality. You made bad decision. You’re living with the consequences of them. Obviously I’m opposed to it, but I’m more opposed to the mindset that you’re a victim if you have a student loan with a ridiculous interest rate. Unfortunately not quantifiable since indentured servitude isn't allowed, so no the collateral is not the student's future. Clearly I do. This sub has gotten so big it’s mostly lay people at this point. Basically going the way of r/investing Yes because you’re way less risky after finishing your degree than you are before you finish it. Getting a personal loan below 5% with no strings attached is not that common. If you have collateral yes, but then it's not unsecured Unsecured means not backed by collateral. E.g., a mortgage is secured by the borrower’s house. It doesn’t mean it’s “secure” in the sense that there is low risk of nonpayment. Or you're just a retard. 49% of people have about a 1/2 chance for their choice to win. 3rd party voters have no chance, literally 0. Even the chance for the democrats to acomplish something is bigger than that. Being a fucking retard like you is also terrible for democracy. As soon as I saw ""whaaa"" I'm the text of your comment I knew your bitch mouth had nothing useful to say. Be respectful or fuck off you whiny little bitch. I agree with you all of the literal trump supporters actions listed above are garbage. I don’t have to play this game with you. I just listed a bunch of examples that are fascist actions (but I’ll add some more for you, too: overthrowing democracy, a coup, threatening Biden supporters on the roadway, having your own flag, dehumanizing the opposition, withholding support from democrats in the height of the first wave based on ideology & therein killing them, hating and blaming immigrants for low wages, scapegoating minority populations, mounting massive voter suppression campaigns by the minority party, centralizing authority in the executive and military to prepare to steal voting machines, causing a violent mob to descend on the Capitol to stop the peaceful transfer of power in Americas democracy) and you don’t want to accept them. Your cognitive dissonance as a fake patriot is not my problem, bud. You have to work out on your own what’s true. None of us feel like helping you guys anymore. So, do get vaccinated, or don’t — we don’t care. Do come around to the reality and damage your support for trump caused in our democracy and constitution — or don’t, we don’t care. We are moving on with or without you. We don’t care which. And, what’s more, I don’t give a fuck about what you think of me or my thoughts. I truly, truly, truly do not care what goes on in your head. Again, that’s your hell/dissonance/fake reality to live in. I live in regular reality where we all look at trump supporters the way they deserve to be looked at: as the people who furthered a coup attempt in our country while the signs were all there (literally trump saying he wouldn’t leave and would try to overthrow the election Weimar style. No wonder, his favorite book is Mein Kampf; probably the only book he’s ever read)— so traitors. [deleted] Yes. People enter in to contracts. That has no bearing on the conditions of power in the contracts. Which is why we have laws addressing them. If you don’t care about fairness, then you should feel fine spurning the indebted and taking the neoclassical route. What possible justification can you offer for enabling moral hazard, transfer frictions, and misuse of capital EXCEPT some moral claim? In reality, you’re not concerned with ethics or efficiency. You’re just a greedy little cretin who’s mad that he offers society so little and can’t find anyone to give him a free ride. [deleted] The federal student loans guaranteed by the department of education are limited to a certain borrowing amount per student per semester. We are also not talking about loan forgiveness for private loans. Keep attacking that straw man. [deleted] Aren't you from England? lol You don't actually care about any of those things if you're a single issue voter, especially if your single issue is ""give me ten grand in the middle of an inflation crisis"" > That the working man gets his fair share, that tomorrows air, water and land is better than todays, and we don’t let people go hungry, sick or mire in poverty. And you’re willing to burn this all to the ground unless Biden personally gives you $10k. The thing that chaps my ass about progressives is that they refuse to exist in political reality. My man, look at congress. All of your policies need 60 votes in the senate & 218 votes in the house in order to become law. Show me the votes. If you don’t have the votes then your policy will need to wait until a day that we do have enough votes to pass it. This is how politics works and that’s completely independent from what I personally believe. I actually agree with most progressive ideals - I just know the best way to achieve those ideals is by electing Democrats. Wishing on a star doesn’t change government policy, no matter how much you whine and no matter how much you virtue signal. I want everyone to be millionaires living in a post work society where our every whim is tended to by robots. Ok, now that we’re done daydreaming can we come back to this reality where we actually have to have a fucking plan to pass any of this? Whoa, you're coming off a bit aggressive there, mate. I'm actually agreeing with you. My point was that people get stuck in this cycle of poverty and it's very difficult to escape it, even when you do all the right things. There are many smart kids who never get to use their talents and abilities because their families are stuck in survival mode. It truly is expensive to be poor. Genuine question: how would you fix it? Do I agree that our two party system is far from ideal? Sure. But not voting for a democrat at this point is really shooting yourself in the foot. You can't make change in the system by abstaining from it. Look, I understand where you're coming from, but what you're describing is accelerationism. That's when you hope things get worse to wake people up so that then they can get better. I would hope after 4 years of Trump you would realize that it's better to make progress than to backslide. Trump tried to revive coal and rolled back environmental protections at a time where we desperately need to make progress to reduce emissions. Clinton would definitely have made the world a much better place comparatively. Anyway, we're getting off topic here and I don't have a whole lot of time to debate this further. For a different perspective, I recommend checking out /r/votedem. [deleted] I'm talking about all the people I know in the Midwest with STEM degrees who can't find a job making more that 10-12 an hours. There are tons of people with this problem. I guess you are not from around here See, here's the thing. Those degrees (and others like them) teach people critical thinking, to question what they read and hear, to challenge their own preconceived ideas, not just blindly accept and share whatever they happen to see (hello, Facebook) The more the student loans crisis escalates, the more some people shit on any degree that isn't STEM. But if we dismiss anything that isn't a STEM degree, what are we left with? Right, you just said it, and I agree: They cared more about the appearance of a win than the actual policy itself. I don’t think they are acting in good faith, I think that cutting out the good stuff and pretending that they tried was the plan all along. “Nothing will fundamentally change.” Was Biden’s unofficial campaign slogan, after all. Timeout and?…. Timeout and?…. Timeout and?…. Timeout and?…. Timeout and?…. … Reduction in debt obligations… No dodge. My loans are all paid off and I can recognize how saddling everyone with debt right out of college has hurt the country as a whole. Sure individual responsibility matters but when enough individuals are suffering it becomes a societal issue. There is no middle class because we have sold out our children for the sake of profits for a slim minority of people. The system needs fixed and damaged need to be healed No, your response is silly. Student loans are predatory. Mortgages (thanks to boomers) could never be predatory again thanks to the GFC. It’s comparing apples to oranges. You are the one who brought up homeowners in the first place. Move along troll. A house is more valuable than knowledge anywhere in the world. Yes. Three words too big and complex for you to understand the meaning? Sorry I’ll use smaller ones somehow but three letters is approaching the smallest. Lol. I wish you understood how the way you communicate makes people not take you seriously. Also, I’d recommend not using a skin color as a negative association next time. Racism is getting old. You’re saying your student loans got to 13% and what year was this? That’s almost Unheard of these days. His have to be private loans, which wouldn’t qualify for forgiveness. I have grad school loans around 8 percent. Could be something like that 2007 I think I was close to the last lucky year. [deleted] They are two fedloan loans, they cannot be consolidated (according to Fedloan when I tried to on their own advice) You and I both know the only reason you're ""financially stable"" is because mommy and daddy pay your bills. Don't worry though, I won't tell anyone ;) Also: that allowance you're given? You didn't earn that, and it's not the same as a paycheck from an actual job. “Thousand of people” who do what every day? What are you referring to? You have not contended my points at all and just moved the goalposts and settled. Do you have a hard time acknowledging that bad things happen to good people? Or that the systems / insitutions that be can be predatory? Is it easier for you to believe that life is fair and people deserve what they get? I’m trying to understand where your avoidance in logic is coming from What do you think garnished wages and low credit ratings do? Student loans are not treated the same as personal loans. When I refi’d I got like a 2.9% rate and this was in 2014 and total debt was close to $150K. Yeah that’s cool and technically correct but 5-8% is absolutely not appropriately risk-adjusted. Waaay too much upside. Using the R word really validated your point bro!!!!! Great job!!!!!! Uh oh, we gotta badass over here! Lmao. A whiney edge lord First of all you're badly, badly misinformed. The United States is not a Democracy, but a Constitutional Republic. We are a collection of smaller, self-governed entities (called States) that also chose to have and adhere to a single set of laws which is the Federal level. This is why when I am traveling to other states I haven't been to in some time, I have to check their gun laws because I conceal in my vehicle. Let me address your points here. If this is what you're talking about for Biden supporters being ""threatened in the streets"" https://youtu.be/yYjSREfqVlk then lolz at you. Lol at ""having your own flag"". Don't forget this lovely work of art was released while Trump was still in office: https://youtu.be/BlIREcAu0PI Biden/Harris had their own flag. Dehumanizing the opposition? - https://youtu.be/1BzraMlg9Ek - https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/93787862 There are more examples out there, but some others are popular conservative voices/speakers were protested a d not allowed on campus. You'll need to source your claim about withholding support and pretty much everything else you said because it's either how you viewed it in your anti-Trump lens, or it's how one of the many liberal media outlets spun the actions. Also, the ""insurrection""? While I don't agree with their actions, it's been completely overblown. But let's actually define fascism since you have yet to do so. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/fascism Don't rebut with wikipedia or any of that edited BS. This is the actual definition. Fascism: Governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly repressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism. Did any of this happen under Trump? Let's see. Criteria 1: A dictator. Well, he wasn't that. He was a dick quite a bit, but not a dictator. He often conducted his press conferences similar to business meetings and had no qualms about standing up against the media. So this is definitely a no. Criteria 2: Forcibly repressing opposition and criticism. Lol 95% of mainstream media leans hard to the left. They did everything they could to smear him leading up to his election and fabricating an entire story about Russia meddling in the election. They continued to push this narrative (along with other partial truths and some lies) his entire presidency and attempted to delegitemize the election results all 4 years. It got to the point where press conferences became battle grounds because the liberal media was more concerned with trying to ask ""gotcha"" questions than actually care about what he was calling a presser for. So this too, is a no. Criteria 3: Regimenting industry and commerce, etc. Nope. Criteria 4: Aggressive nationalism and often racist. The first part of this j would agree with. His ""Make America Great Again"" campaign was uber nationalist. But that doesn't .San he's fascist. Let's address the racist part. Most folks on the left claimed him to be racist because he wanted to build a wall at the southern border. I'm all for border reform, but never thought a wall was the way to go. But it certainly wasn't racist. We currently have a border crisis now our administration is completely ignoring (mainly Kamala). So this one is a meh. What about Biden? Dictator? No. Suppressing opposition and criticism? May not be from his direct orders, but social media and other platforms have adopted a narrative (mostly the liberal one being pushed by MSM) and are blocking and removing content and users for ""misinformation"". Example: Steven Crowder's Vcast ""Louder with Crowder"" was given a strike and temporary ban early on in the pandemic for suggesting it was ok to wear masks when at the time Faucci was claiming they wouldn't help. He also received a other strike and temporary ban on YouTube for quoting the CDC and when YT decided it was convenient and things changed a week later went back and banned removed the video. Meanwhile there are channels with half naked men basically dry humping each other that isn't age restricted. Regimenting industry and commerce: well they're getting big pharma after us trying to force us to take a vaccine that hasn't been fully tested yet. Some people have lost their jobs just because they were unvaccinated. The unvaccinated are getting dehumanized, told it's ""our fault"" all the way up to president Biden stating this WHO by the way refused to get vaccinated until he was voted into office because both he and Harris refused to get it under Trump, which is now being spun as ""distrust for Trump and not the vaccine"". If that were the case, they should have gotten it no matter what. Instead, they decided to politicize it and use it as a way to gain votes.. Aggressive nationalism and often racist: Oh he's racist alright. Been racist for years. Didn't want his kids going to school with blacks. Wrote the crime bill that locked up thousands of blacks on petty charges (Harris often threw the book at blacks in California as well). Straight up told black voters if they couldn't figure out if there were for him or Trump then ""you ain't black"". Biden is about as far from being a nationalist as Trump was a nationalist. Trump utilized his to gain more votes. Biden just doesn't GAF about us or our country. He's been in office 2 years and he's: - Given the middle easr back to the Taliban armed with millions of dollars of US weapons and gear. Could you imagine the outrage you would have had if Trump had done the very same thing? Jesus it'd probably would still be in the 24/7 news cycle today and he's be constantly asked to speak on it every press conference. Nope. The MSM reported in it for about a week and then moved on. - Have the worst border crisis we've seen in US history. All because for four years the media portrayed Trump as a racist and then Kamala and Biden saying ""you can come now"" since he's out of office and what happens? They f*cking listened because they're poor Central and South Americans and don't know any better. They get to be border and they're being turned away because they just can't process them all that fast. Then Kamala went down to Guatemala or some other country where they didn't even want her there just for her to tell them to stay home in their sh*thole countries. Lolz at this administration. - His response to over promising and under delivering was ""why are you so optimistic""? His press conferences are like telling the family to shush so that the old grandpa with Dementia can say whatever is on their mind and then when he's done saying shit that doesn't make sense, you just smile and say ""that's great, grandpa"". Fact is, nobody is holding this administration accountable. They ""attempted"" to hold Trump accountable, but couldn't resist throwing in ""racist"" or ""misogynist"" in there with it. So if I looked at the definition, I'd say Biden or more fascist than Trump. I mean you still make money during residency. How stunted would pay need to be to make of the difference of 300k in student loans. It kinda sounds like a good route. residency is not medical school. medical school is typically 4 years of graduate level education that culminates in a doctorate degree. residency is a multi year period of postgraduate on-the-job training where new doctors practice medicine under supervision of senior doctors. they are paid for their work. it’s a job. regardless of where you attend medical school - domestic or international - you have to complete a medical residency program before practicing medicine independently in the US. Lol, you're such a fucking crybaby, but conservatives always are. News, to you, nobody is bound by your own personal ethical musings, not unless you can get it voted into law, and even then it only counts until it doesn't. If you can't differentiate between business and ethical decisions, I recommend you get out of the finance area, you'll have a bad time ultimately. Also, if it wasn't clear, no I don't care about fairness. What you think, believe, and care about are also on the list of things I don't give a fucking shit about either. Go to some conservative sub to hang out with your other sycophants, and next time you have a debate with someone try actually making an argument instead of just yelling your opinion at them. They might walk away just thinking you're stupid instead of thinking you're a stupid asshole. I want you to go over your comment again and tell me how many of the industries you mentioned have failed before and needed a government bailout even after all of the subsides, because of massive corruption. Then after that tell me how the wealthy covered the cost of bailouts and it didn’t just get paid back by cancelled pensions? Then in the end, tell me how you think any of those are a good justification for non-college educated tax payers to cover the cost of the “college educated”. Taxes have gone nothing but up for decades, as designed, for us and not them. But back then “them” included the college educated. All I am seeing now is entitled people pissed off that they didn’t get the cushy 100k/yr job right out of college, or even years after, that they were promised by the prior elite. There is no plan to cancel student loan debt either, but I GUARANTEE it would involve higher taxes on lower wage earners, just like the ACA did through the huge premiums and huge tax liability on the individual. And if you don’t see a problem with that, I guess we just disagree. I’m gonna guess you’re gonna say neither of these things happened nor will happen and the Democratic Party and the DNC always know best. We are talking about loans that are used for private universities in many cases… I have not once brought up private loans. You are an insanely pompous person for someone that doesn’t know what the fuck he is talking about. … you aren’t making a point. Why give money to the elite and business owners but do nothing for wage earning middle class tax payers? No I’m not and I find it weird you feel the need to stalk my account to try and draw certain inferences that are false. Creep Perhaps you’ve let the system that exists for arbitrary means to get in the way of progress. 60 vote threshold can be changed. 50/50 caucuses also won by the most stubborn groups inside it. See the tea party. So I personally see you lack of ambition as systematic of the problem. I’m A ok with Thugery tactics so long as it gets the job done. So yeah don’t count on my vote unless you’re willing to do the most to earn it. [deleted] As an intellectual exercise, Romney defeating Obama in 2012 would have changed policy very little but would have all but guaranteed Trump wouldn’t have run in 2016, and might never have been President at all. Obama didn’t really do much good (if any) that milquetoast Romney wouldn’t have done more or less, so the country wouldn’t be a drastically worse place leading up to 2020, and a Romney win might have had a suppressive effect on the rise of the alt right. Instead, VBNMH became somehow a wise move and now Biden’s inadequacy will lead to another trump term, or a worse candidate who is actually competent. I don’t abstain. I vote in every single election I’m eligible to vote in. When the total votes cast for Dems and for republicans doesn’t add up to 100%, that’s me and my kind. You’re welcome. that’s nice sweetie. I keep seeing more and more posts and comments from engineering grads who can't find work or the work they get offered (in engineering) pays so little that they would make more working retail This is sad to see. These people did everything that was expected of them and now they're struggling You don't think highschool teaches students how to critically think? What do you think essay writing is about? You don't need a 4 year degree to think critically. it was a tounge in cheek response but bankruptcy isnt just sunshine and rainbows. still dodged the question that you initially replied to. SpunkyDred is a terrible bot instigating arguments all over Reddit whenever someone uses the phrase apples-to-oranges. I'm letting you know so that you can feel free to ignore the quip rather than feel provoked by a bot that isn't smart enough to argue back. --- ^^SpunkyDred ^^and ^^I ^^are ^^both ^^bots. ^^I ^^am ^^trying ^^to ^^get ^^them ^^banned ^^by ^^pointing ^^out ^^their ^^antagonizing ^^behavior ^^and ^^poor ^^bottiquette. > apples to oranges But you can still compare them. >Mortgages (thanks to boomers) could never be predatory again thanks to the GFC. You can quite easy spend 40%+ (sometimes 50%+) of your *gross* income on a mortgage these days. Even a slumlord will want more margin of safety than that. Had to *Have. Sorry that 4th letter was outside your grasp. [deleted] It was unheard of then too unless you were taking high interest private loans. This is wrong . If my monthly is 500, and I pay it, AND also add another 1000, I ABSOLUTELY can mark that 1000 for principal only. Literally just did that now. You must be trash with money if you can’t figure out how to repay a 10 year loan on 190k salary. Well can you consolidate each individually? I don’t know what to say anymore honestly. I wasn’t even young when I took my loans out. I knew I’d have to repay back over 100k. But stupid me I thought having a masters would help me make more money and it doesn’t. Diplomas have been so devalued due to the fact that everyone gets a loan whether they can pay it back or not makes these diplomas useless except for Drs or Lawyers. It’s a two fold problem. I remember being younger and my parents going to the bank to get a loan for a car and getting denied for like a 3k loan because they were considered too much of a risk but at 23 with no assets I was able to get 100k at the drop of a hat. Not much good it’s doing me now. I’m sorry for the position you’re in. I’m your particular case it sounds like without some type of reform or forgiveness the only option you have is divorce and taking on a low paying job. It’s disgusting. The projections is strong with this one. Mom died when I was 11 and dad worked 70 hour weeks to make ends meat. No silver spoons here. Just a strong work within and a good head on top the shoulders. Time to grow up, Peter Pan. Not getting suckered into loans and paying there way through school. Try and keep up, skippy. Like OP, I'm simply referring to what collateral means in debt terms. As in what someone issuing the loan would consider as collateral.   If you ask me for a loan, and I ask what collateral you have, you're not going to tell me garnished wages and low credit ratings. With respect to the unsecured part, although garnishing wages is possible it and other recourses available to lenders are extremely burdensome versus a secured loan which in its simplest form is just a special vehicle with assets equal to the principal which the lender has a right to. If that was true then private student loans would be undercutting them, but they dont. Risk is higher than it appears. For example, consider how many students never graduate. Many in that group dont pay. Hey look, another retard! Dude I tell everyone that comes at a comment by being a whiny, disrespectful little fucking bitch that they're a retard, then I block them for being whiny disrespectful little bitches because I don't have time for nor do I care what whiny disrespectful fucking little bitches like you think! So fuck off retard! Dude I don’t care. Sorry. I’m not open to a discussion with you. I have seen all I’ve needed to see with my own eyes and my own ears of the Trump movement. I don’t need your links or your comebacks or your desperate pleas for the rest of us to validate your personal political experience. I’m really sorry for you. I truly pity everyone who is involved with trump. I believe that you will all have to answer for the choice to support a fascist megalomaniac. No amount of links or back talk about how badly misinformed I am because ZING GOTCHA we are a democratic republic not a direct democracy is going to make me value your input here. You might as well have not commented 4 days after I made this original comment — almost like you just wanted to vent your anger and argue that your dissonance deserves respect. But I don’t respect your view, your opinion, or find your dissonance persuasive and there’s no amount of persuasion or verbal bludgeoning that will yield you the result you want from me. I hope as a human being and as my neighbor you find peace with your rage and anger and whatever would drive you to vote for a man who literally hates you, unless you’re a millionaire or a pussy to grab. Again, what’s your goal here? Is the goal is simply for you to draw someone into an argument so you can feel some semblance of power back in your daily life because you feel disempowered by your debt, or your financial situation, the past politics? Is the goal venting anger about the fact that “those damn minorities & women are getting uppity again and going too far demanding equality and legal status?” Are you just fighting your conscience and arguing with me is just the byproduct? Is the goal here to suppress your own conscience which is more than likely telling you that your beliefs are not moral to the rest of the society you share this country with & Maybe even that you should re-evaluate? Either way, I’m not looking for a discussion & you well know that. I sleep well at night knowing to myself and my conscience I am true. Not to redditors who just need to validated and noticed. I’m so sorry for you that you’ve been conned into believing what you believe. But I truly do not care, I am not interested in fighting with you, and you are not my responsibility. I don’t have any interest in chatting with you about it — which I said in my last comment. [deleted] Don’t need to cry about policy because I can pay my own rent :) [deleted] Well, the ones guaranteed by the federal government are limited, so the amount those students have in federally guaranteed loans are no more than the ones attending state school and they’re paying the difference with private loans, which no legislative nor executive proposal to date has included any relief for anyway. You’re still making an irrelevant argument. Annual dispensation of combined loans, grants, and work study funds combined in 2020 by the federal student aid program was $115 billion, and you’re here trying to chip about half a trillion a year. [deleted] Ok, so show me the 50 senators who support eliminating the filibuster. Then show me 50 senators who will vote for any of your proposals. Crying about how life isn’t fair does nothing to actually implement the proposals you pretend to care about. This is the system we have. If you want to get anything actually done, either work within that system or show me the votes to change it. Yeah, that's the most frustrating part, IMO. It's gotten to the point where it's such a mess that there are no easy answers. Honestly, I can't think of a solution that would be perfect. Totally agree with you college should be free. It used to be more affordable. How do we dig ourselves out of this mess now? I don't know. A good high school will get them started on it, sure, but there is a huge difference in how many new and different ideas and people they will have the opportunity to come across between high school and college. You know what also isn’t sunshine and rainbows? 6 figure college debt you can’t ever get rid of and have no real shot at paying back. Say what you want about “you borrowed it, you pay it”… but should we really be giving 17-22 year olds unsecured loans for this? If we fix higher education funding, do we just flip the bird to an entire generation and a half of people who didn’t have that opportunity? If you say yes, you’re a bad person. If you say no, then that’s ALREADY the situation. Because higher education funding (and minimum wage) WAS enough for previous generations to get through college without much debt. This is impossible now… So either we can choose to be dense and give people who made major, lifelong, irreversible financial decisions, many times as an actual child, and couldn’t foresee or ask for this situation, as an adult, the middle finger… I don’t think COMPLETE and total loan forgiveness is the right thing to do, because then the taxpayer is entirely burdened with the cost of education for doctors, lawyers and others who are doing just fine and don’t need an *effective reduction in taxes (*because ultimately if education is a public good, paid for entirely or partially with taxes, then any additional funding individuals are responsible for could effectively be considered a regressive tax). I say we “forgive” by reducing the payments to $0/month for anyone not making above an AGI of $75k annually. Anyone between $75-150k should have a sliding scale between 5%-12% of their monthly income to make payments with (though not everyone would owe that entire amount of their income monthly if the payment terms on the remaining loan balance are less than % cap). Then, after 15 years of good-faith, the remaining balance is forgiven, if necessary. Those two loans are different. You can discharge a home loan and there is an asset associated with a property loan. Student loans can not be discharged in bankruptcy and you can’t have your degree repossessed. Apples to oranges No. I’m aware of the words. Just disappointed that the concept, the meaning behind the letters, the thought that most everyone else was able to understand just kinda…evaded you. So because it said ‘had’ you couldn’t understand the meaning anymore? Seems more like you need to stop worrying about stupid shit and remember that correcting a strangers comment without adding anything to it doesn’t make you some smart savior. Makes you a silly cunt wasting time. I hope you realize that you are pretty much the only person that is taking your post seriously. As one of the richest countries on the planet, the standard of living here is quite high compared to the average globally. Direct dollars put into education doesn’t result in better educational results. Pouring money into the system through taxes doesn’t actually help people, all sorts of studies show that when college is provided for you, you pay less attention and don’t try as hard. Loans need to exist, they do in this country and they do so with reasonable rates. > The projections is strong with this one. Coming from the little boy who assumes: 1. I subscribe to netflix 2. I watch orange is the new black 3. I have a liberal arts degree >Mom died when I was 11 Was it suicide? Because I couldn't imagine dealing with your stupid ass. >dad worked 70 hour weeks to make ends meat Oh, DAD worked 70 hour weeks. So it isn't mommy AND daddy paying your bills; you're just leeching off of a single parent who probably can't afford it. Good for you, champ. How do you make *ends meat*? I’ve heard of BBQ burnt ends. Is that the same? Is Ends Meat in an Alex Jones BBQ cookbook or sumpthin? Are you drunk? Forget school, your grammar and comprehension is toasted like you’ve never read a post-secondary education book. Skippy I guess so, man. But if the future wasn't a form of collateral, debt wouldn't exist. Lol the hubris you exude in your self-absorbed comments tells me all I need to know about the type of individual you are. I don't have any anger. It just shocks me how someone can blatantly ignore facts in order to continue believing their own narcissistic views and opinions. The problem in this country and the reason why it's sinking fast is because of people like you. You've created this fantasy world that you believe can't be destroyed when you're the one slowly picking away at its foundation. You refuse to have any kind of an open mind, refuse to have your own worldview changed, much less challenged, yet you have zero qualms shitting your opinions and ""facts"" onto other people and then bolting when challenged. Or you resort to ad hominem in order to make yourself feel better. But that's your sad prerogative. Except you make 30x your foreign salary when you’re done with residency but it’s cool. Your argument is crap. Uhhh, that chart doesn’t show wages in conjunction with taxes. So have wages gone up and we’re being taxed less? Or have wages gone down or remained fairly stagnant in relation to inflation while people just drop the rungs on the tax bracket? Corporate tax rate has gone down though, yet corporations are more profitable than they have ever been. Is it wrong to finance the higher education system with non dischargeable debt? Saddle 20% of Americans with high interest loans to the government they can never pay off why don’t we? Money is handed out to everyone else but you’re right, fuck the people. Is that the path forward for America or am i protesting against the wrong thing? I like this. Are you also applying this line of thinking to the PPP vs student loan comment made earlier? I understood what you ""Tried"" to say. it was so off base I thought I would point out the irony in trying to insult someone's intellegence while using words incorrectly. Funny how some teenager thinks they have it all figured out. I've been through college, i've had loans, still paying my wife's loans, plenty of bills to pay.....but sure, go ahead and tell me more about how im still living with my parents? Like I said. Time to grow up, Peter Pan. Before you have to create a new account again. You ok? I really think you don't understand what collateral means. Collateral is literally what you would **presently** offer to give to the issuer of the loan in the event you cannot pay back what you borrow. If you plan to use the loan to purchase an asset, you can use the asset itself (i.e a house or car) as collateral. If you don't have any collateral of monetary value, you cannot do anything else other than pledging yourself as a slave presently if you cannot pay back the debt in the future.   Unsecured, collateral free loans exist. You can even have student loans with collateral (i.e you have a guarantor pledge). Kk have a nice life! for the record I didn’t read your comment this time at all. Just wishing you well. Bye bye! [deleted] [deleted] OP who responded won’t get it. People here think interest rates above the 10 year treasury are somehow not predatory when the loans are completely non-dischargeable. You can’t reach them. I speak for myself not others. The PPP program had forgiveness baked in. That program can be independently debated in another thread on another post. You forgot to capallize your ‘I’ lmao There you go. Stoped reding as soon as I as j saw that. lol. Aww, big boy has nothing to say now because he's a transparent bitch and has been called out. Do you feel bad about leeching off your dad? he’s probably just trying to sound philosophical If you can use a bond as collateral, then I think it's fair to say that the ""future"" of a person getting a student loan is the same thing, since the debt is inescapable unless there is death, the same way a bond is inescapable while the government/company exists (barring certain bankruptcies). This is my last response because it’s very clear you don’t know much about that topic but again, you haven’t convinced me that somehow leverage is justified by education level. If it wasn’t, there’d be no reason to talk about student debt and it wouldn’t be a politically or economically relevant talking point. Ok. So we were talking about working class people’s taxes going up. I did not include nuance of corporate tax rate, which has gone down. People’s wages have fallen, but tax rates have not by any meaningful measure, and what is inflation other than printed money that the wealthy didn’t want to pay in taxes? You can justify bailing out student loan debt all you want. It is one of the many things making me not want to vote for Biden next time. lmao...\*Stopped\*reading I’m sorry you have no prospects for the future and have required the necessary skills to succeed on our modern society and your only outlet is to lash out online. You clearly wish I was a silver spoon because it would make you feel better about yourself, but the fact is I’m the proof that you and people like you are lazy cry babys who’s rather cry online than actually work on bettering yourselves. I didn’t grow up wealthy, but my kids are. Except I can assign a monetary value to that bond. I can even sell it the instant I receive that collateral.   If you want to use that comparison using the ""future"" of a person as collateral, you need to allow the loan issuer to sell your future presently. Again, the only way that happens is if the student agrees to become an indentured servant/slave. I'm just saying planning on going to medical school outside of US and returning to US to practice medicine is dumb. Clearly you are the one missing the point of argument here. [deleted] Oh. Well I guess the subtlety evaded you. I didn’t expect much from an asshole whom bases their whole life around being a grumpy grammar Nazi. Don’t reply. Or do. I’m finished wasting time remembering you lmao I feel so bad for your dad. First he had to deal with his wife killing herself because she had to deal with you as a son, but then he has you leeching off of him, sucking him dry. Poor guy just can't catch a break. Growing and selling auto flowers is hard work. That’s not what I said at all lol So have their wages. So it’s a wash. bless.your.heart Ouch town population you, bro. Do these tactics normally work for you? Almost as hard as going through someone’s profile because you’re a loser… See being financial smart means growing your own food and flowers. Try it sometime. Do you at least plan on putting him in a decent nursing home? Or are you looking at the cheapest possible in order to save money? I look to see that you are indeed a human. The auto flowers cracked me up since it deviates from what you seem to want to project to the world. First projection and now deflection? Weird. “Indeed human” that’s the lamest excuse from a profile creeper I’ve ever heard. Do explain how the Autoflowers showcase my deviation from what I’m projecting to the world? I imagine that when you were born, he had such high hopes for you. But then all you did was cause your mom to kill herself and then take money from him and pretend like you earned it. Also, didn't you say ""I’ve no time for your brand of simplemindedness."", big boy? Why are you still wasting your precious time replying to me? Couldn't that be better spent counting the money you're stealing from your dad? Projection. Mmm, coming from the baby boy who just pulled the whole /r/suicidewatch reporting thing (which isn't clever, by the way). Feeling guilty about being the reason your mom killed herself, huh? And again, if you have no time for my ""brand of simplemindedness"", then why are you still replying? Why are you replying to me so consistently and promptly? Shouldn't you have some responsibilities as a parent? Unless this is the time that your ex-wife gets the kids? LMFAO holy shit dude, are you a divorced dad who's leeching off *his* dad and was the reason his mother killed herself? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA It's all starting to come together now. Your anger, your need to prove to anonymous strangers online how ""manly"" and ""responsible"" you are... why'd she divorce you? You a drunk? With your level projection I think a watch is needed for you. If you had put half as much effort into your as you do Reddit you may have a different perspective on life. Alas, that ship has sailed Yeah, I got you figured out. Your mom killed herself because you were a shit kid. You leeched off your dad (and possibly still do). You somehow convinced some chick to marry you and let you cum insider her. Then she divorced you when she realized how much of a loser drunk you are, and now you get to see your kids maybe only like one day every other week, which is why you're able to sit on reddit and respond so quickly to my posts. Get your life together, [Lady Di](https://youtu.be/qxf2mExRNko?t=1). Even half this effort and you could have been a straight C student. You are [Lady Di](https://youtu.be/qxf2mExRNko?t=1). Get your life together. Also, I'm on a post delay, so this will be my last post just because I'm losing interest. The only person you may be successfully convincing on here of your bullshit is yourself. Sober up and act responsibly, and maybe your ex-wife will let you see your kids more often. Or, continue drinking for 12 hours a day, trying to convince random strangers of how great you are. I couldn't care either way. Bye for now, Peter Pan. I do hope you can feel better one day." Putin Ukraine invasion: Russia's ruble hits record low against dollar,1922,https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/24/putin-ukraine-invasion-russias-ruble-hits-record-low-against-dollar.html,"Those poor people are going to suffer because of one man and his gang of crooks. Shame. Maybe they’ll just default again As long as the average Russian can afford to live comfortably (or at least, put food on the table), I doubt there will be any chance of Putin losing power domestically. And given how freely he has been handing out threats of nuclear war, perhaps an economic blockade is the only reasonable way of forcing the Russian populace to action “Greetings from Ukraine,we are traveling to the front.the darkest day in the history of my country.we will fight,no matter the cost.we will not live under the rule of a man who would do this to the people of Ukraine.we understand the world doesn’t want to fight, but please support us.we will fight for our homes and our freedom.he must be stopped.”this is a Ukrainian soldiers quote.forgot to quote. More coverage at: * [Oil price rises above $100, global stock markets plunge as Russia invades Ukraine – business live (msn.com)](https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/oil-price-rise-above-dollar100-global-stock-markets-plunge-as-russia-invades-ukraine-%e2%80%93-business-live/ar-AAUexiH) * [EU to launch new sanctions against Russia over ""barbaric"" attack on Ukraine (reuters.com)](http://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-eu-idUSKBN2KT0SW?utm_source=34553&utm_medium=partner) * [Ukrainians Flee Kyiv as Videos Show Air Raid Sirens Ringing Out (newsweek.com)](https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-flee-kyiv-air-raid-siren-russia-invasion-war-vladimir-putin-1682126) --- ^(I'm a bot to find news from different sources.) [^(Report an issue)](https://www.reddit.com/user/MultiSourceNews_Bot/comments/k5pcrc/multisourcenews_bot_info/) ^(or PM me.) If not for humanity then for their own bottom line, Russians should take a united stand against Putin. I have seen Lions torn into pieces because water buffaloes had enough of it. Not sure why we let individuals fuck us over when we are more in number. This is the time to carve out American Kamchatka. At some point Russia needs to realize that it doesn't have the military to defend if it decides to be aggressive. Serious question, could Ukraine have shorted the shit out of the Russian market as a hedging strategy against invasion? With the invasion, cash out and buy shit tons of arms with it. is MOEX priced in rubles or $? Could we just delegitimize the ruble? Ie make it illegal to accept it as legal tender across the globe? Dear Ukrainians! I heard on social media that there is fake news being spread (most likely by Russia backed trolls) that polish border is closed. It's a lie. If you seek asylum - go towards polish border. We are ready for your arrival. We have reception points ready at the border where you can find shelter, food, medical and legal aid. Polish government launched a dedicated site to help you: ua.gov.pl Please share this information if you know anyone seeking help right now. YOU DON'T NEED VISA TO PASS THROUGH POLISH BORDER. ALL YOU NEED IS PASSPORT. VISAS ARE SUSPENDED! YOU DON'T NEED THEM FOR TIME BEING!!!!!! • ⁠in Ukrainian https://www.gov.pl/web/udsc/ukraina---ua • ⁠in English https://www.gov.pl/web/udsc/ukraina-en Шановні українці! У соцмережах я чув, що поширюються фейкові новини (скоріше за все, підтримувані Росією тролі), що польський кордон закритий. Це брехня. Якщо ви шукаєте притулку – йдіть до польського кордону. Ми готові до вашого приїзду. На кордоні готові пункти прийому, де ви можете знайти притулок, їжу, медичну та правову допомогу. Польський уряд запустив спеціальний сайт, щоб допомогти вам: ua.gov.pl Будь ласка, поділіться цією інформацією, якщо ви знаєте когось, хто зараз шукає допомоги. РЕДАКТИРОВАТИ: ВАМ НЕ ПОТРІБНА ВІЗА ДЛЯ ПРОЙДЖЕННЯ ПОЛЬСЬКИМ КОРДОНОМ. ВСЕ, що ВАМ ПОТРІБНО, - це ПАСПОРТ. ВІЗИ ПРИСПИНЕНО! ВОНИ ВАМ НЕ ПОТРІБНИ НА ЧАС!!!!!! EDIT2: як доказ того, що вам більше не потрібна віза: • ⁠українською https://www.gov.pl/web/udsc/ukraina---ua • ⁠англійською https://www.gov.pl/web/udsc/ukraina-en Вибачте, якщо це дурниця, я використовував Google Translate Ruble = toilet paper - send me some, I’ll wipe my ass with putins face All those Ukraine wheats and sunflower will feed the russian mouths. Problem solved. Good thing we turned off our oil and turned theirs on just long enough to stimulate their economy for a nice little invasion. Moneymoneymoney Ukrainians forget that they’re historically part of greater Russia, and have been so since the time of the Rus and Viking raids in the 8th century. My grandmother was from Kiev and always referred to herself as Russian. Buy rubles and wait for the recovery? Creating the Helghast army in the process Down with Russia! Down with Putin! *rubble Doge Coin worth more. . . I wonder if any of the soldiers have family in Ukraine and “fail to be effective” on purpose. Or were they all background checked before being deployed CNBC lives in fantasyland Welcome to human history. [removed] Millions I of Nicaragua 🇳🇮 citizens are killed, raped, tortured, go missing everyday and nobody cares. Probably bc it’s not mentioned in Us news. Look at 🇨🇺 and Venezuela 🇻🇪 those countries declared war on their citizens and who cares? Yeah its so shitty. But on the other hand, they knew that the plan to surround Russia with military equipment, rockets right at the border, not to mention basically closing off the Black sea would end up badly. But they still pushed to the breaking point. When you control the propaganda you can do whatever you want, i guess. Just look at what US did to Cuba because Cuba was friendly with the Russians and there were talks about posting missiles right at the US border. When Russia does it, its a threat. When America does it, its democracy https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/1/19/how-real-is-russias-threat-to-deploy-missiles-to-latin-america I’m not on either side, fuck the war. I’m for the humanity, for all the people that just try to make the best of it in the system that keeps degrading lives every single day. Is ur talking about us or russia American imperialism is surely to blame here too. Ukrainian and Russian yield curves are competing in a space race 🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀 Unlikely. They have a fortress-like balance sheet If you search internet of videos/images of actual life in rural russia it his is exactly what is happening. No basic services and no money for food. Putin is serving these people with a recommended dosage of daily propaganda and it’s been proves to be effective. Basically Putin has no fear from inside the country. Iran is banned from using SWIFT and they have managed. Putin seems to think he will be fine too Russia has a worse economy that the states that left the URSS combined. It used to be the case that the average Russian could afford to live comfortably but there has been a marked decline in living standards for the bottom 80% and so this war also serves as a propaganda to distract Russians from their own materiel situations. I say call his bluff fucker would die too in a nuclear war. He knows that. Fuck him. Take him out. Nah, this has nothing to do with the Russian people. Putin couldn't care less.. You need to hit his billionaire buddies until they get sick of him and stop supporting him. >I doubt there will be any chance of Putin losing power domestically. Over the course of this past decade, Putin has had to actively suppress the Opposition, namely Navalny and his supporters. Now that Putin must focus his efforts on two fronts (domestically and internationally in the Ukraine), he makes himself more vulnerable to challenges at home. [removed] Because they’re armed to the teeth and coordinated lol. They would get slaughtered like sheep https://media2.giphy.com/media/8VSaCyIdcnbuE/200.gif Time to manifest destiny And wait for delivery lol? I hope arms deals come with free same day shipping… Rubles. Oil is priced in dollars everywhere, but stock markets are priced in local currencies. You might not think of Fukushima or Chernobyl when you think of sunflowers, but they naturally decontaminate soil. They can soak up hazardous materials such as uranium, lead, and even arsenic! So next time you have a natural disaster … Sunflowers are the answer! Ukraine is the world's 5th largest exporter of wheat. In my humble opinion, it is very likely that Russia will seek to divert a larger portion of Ukrainian wheat exports from Middle Eastern countries who currently import, including Turkey, to Russia (also an importer of Ukrainian wheat prior to the recent invasion, in any case)... What are you talking about? Not really… https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=WCRFPUS2&f=W The Ottomans ran Ukraine for way longer than Russia ever did. Since you want to be so “historical” it should be the Turks invading Ukraine. Well, your grandmother didn't get elected to lead Ukraine, and I doubt too many Ukranians feel inclined to let Putin push them around just because some people 1000 years ago considered themselves part of Russia Recovery? I don't think you will see any recovery anytime soon. Traitor I hope in kind someone profits from your death or suffering. You’ll be stuck with them for a while, I doubt you’ll be able to generate some alpha (I’m not a professional so I might be wrong) Wow the nationalism here is strong. We are all humans. With human issues and human dreams. Cultural pride is important, but when it blindly turns into nationalism you have a problem. The USA has done just as much harm/propaganda to the world that RU has. All of our governments play this stupid game while we the people suffer for it. Meanwhile the rich get richer. Try not to be homophobic Millions a day? So like, how is the country still there? Russian social media propoganda was a lot better last time they invaded Ukraine. Well Nicaragua only has ~6 million citizens so I guess it will be gone in a week? Oh fuck off Putin propaganda cock sucker I have absolutely no idea how this got downvoted. Very reasonable and logical comment. The fact of the matter is, the USA has had their hands in so many pies over the years that just about anything major that happens we had a hand in at some stage. People really need to read up more on the CIA and our imperialistic tendencies. You know reddit is just a bunch of liberal americans when the truth is downvoted because it goes against what Biden and the NATO are saying. I hear you man, but it's not the time for that discussion right now. you are talking like a true imbecil AMERICA MADE ME DO ITTTTTTTTTTT Username checks out. Jackass. Explain please I think the UK launder most Russian oligarchs dirty money. Is it a pillow fort? Well yeah he will fine, with china supporting Russias economy. Sanctions wont work as well as you think Hey eat shit, homie :) Sorry bro I’m not Ukrainian.I tried to share some brave Ukrainian soldiers post and forgot to quote it.I’m not Ukrainian Seems like that would’ve been the prudent decision at this point. I’m just waiting for some Russian regular to turn this into an article V action by shooting the wrong person. Lol. Only if they paid their $139 annual fee. The very reason that the investment of USD (and Euro and Chinese Yuan) accounts holding Russian oil and gas revenues is the target of the proposed barring of Russia from SWIFT. Beginning in mid-2021, and continuing into earlier this year, Russia began to increasingly move its oil and gas revenues from USD to Euro and Chinese Yuan. Just… don’t eat the resultant sunflowers… Til That chart shows US oil production peaked on 2020-Mar 03/13 at 13,100 (Thousand Barrels per Day) and fell sharply to flatten at between 9,700 and 11,800 since then. A 25% drop or so is significant. Not looking for quick schemes. Longer time horizons. Just seems like a good time to invest while prices are low. Is buy low sell high not applicable because of the situation? My wife will. 🤡 Brown people dying isn’t front page news. These people are white! /s yea but just a year ago it had over a billion citizens Point me to what I said wrong please. Telling again, not on either side. And i gave you example of the same shit from both sides. So the US doing bad things in the past is a green light for Russia to invade Ukraine? Because most people on reddit base their responses off emotional reactions, they didn’t understand the words and disagree with them, they saw words they didn’t like, felt upset, and immediately lashed out. Literally like children which, mind you, is about 80%-90% of the people commenting on this website, even on “grown up” posts. Logic and reason often clash with opinions while the casino always wins. Swiss probably aren’t happy about that. Yup, and stuffed with ~$500b in FX Chris Hedges' warning: While cutting Russia off from SWIFT will be catastrophic, at least in the short term, for the Russian economy, pushing Russia into the arms of China to create an alternative global financial system that no longer relies on the US dollar will cripple the American empire. Once the dollar is no longer the world’s reserve currency the dollar will precipitously drop in value, perhaps as much as by two-thirds, as the pound sterling did when the British currency was abandoned as the world’s reserve currency in the 1950s. Treasury bonds, used to finance America’s military-based balance-of-payments deficit and the ballooning government budget deficit, will no longer be attractive investments for countries such as China. The nearly 800 US military outposts abroad, sustained by debt – the Chinese have lent an estimated $1 trillion to the US on which they collect hefty interest – will dramatically shrink in number. Meanwhile, the massive US interest payments, at least in part, will continue to fund the Chinese military. ""Hedges: Democrats, the More Effective Evil – scheerpost.com"" https://scheerpost.com/2022/02/14/hedges-democrats-the-more-effective-evil/amp/ Truth hurts, I know. Yup, it was due to the price of oil being very low and putting a stop to production for many areas where it wasn’t profitable. Many smaller players went bankrupt Yeah invest in the country helmed by an irrational military dictator on the brink of starting WW3 while staring down the barrel of economic sanctions from the entire world, what could go wrong Fuck your ‘both sides’ bullshit. ‘Both sides’ arguments are for dumbfucks and liars. >Point me to what I said wrong please. [This right here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/finance/comments/t05vgj/putin_ukraine_invasion_russias_ruble_hits_record/hy8gik3) They did not say that, why do you think your mind went to that? God no, only an emotional fool would assume that’s what I just said. Anything where innocent civilians are put in harms way is atrocious. 80-90% of people act like children offline too. Doesn’t really mean anything unless you can spend it. Most of the holders of US debts are Americans. There are a couple of things to note which makes me not to believe this scenario. First, Russia is pretty unimportant economically except in terms of gas. Russian economy economy is pretty pathetic. RUB has no significance for USD. Second, China isolated its currency but it also affects to the other direction. China is pretty poor at attracting foreign investments due to its anti corporate policies. Therefore, playing Russia out of Swift will have no major effect on USD. Also, China really cannot compete with the US regarding to attracting capital due to that they are not an attractive market to be in besides that they are big. > the Chinese have lent an estimated $1 trillion to the US on which they collect hefty interest > the dollar will precipitously drop in value, perhaps as much as by two-thirds So this effectively reduces the value of debt? Damn I wish I had the hubris to be so confidently incorrect. At least your ears are never cold if your head is permanently up your own ass, yes? I also think it’ll go lower! Let me dumb this down for you. Imagine if Russia put missiles all along the US border. That is what NATO with US is trying to do to Russia. Also a bunch of history and middle east baggage doesn’t help. If Russia setting up shop on US border is wrong then NATO setting up shop on Russian border is also wrong. Isn’t it? Actions have consequences. Denying actions that led to consequences is lying and dumbfuck. So yes, I can condemn all the parties involved because everyone played with fire without any regard for human life. Pointing out hypocrisy is not for dumbfucks. Not recognising hypocrisy is for dumbfucks. Russian troll: *crickets* So why’d you bring the US up here? I've come to find that a significant part of the internet is like this. They love to stuff their own projections onto your words. I do it too though, but I try hard to check myself when I can. Depends on how aggressively the dollar is weaponized. Obviously very risky. CDS spreads are way up, so markets register that. But there are reasons why policy makers might lean away from maximalism, which would require broad buy-in. With regard to driving Russia and China away from the US dollar, what do you think of Hedges' warning? It’s a completely false equivalence. If we, say, invaded Mexico and illegally annexed the Yucatán, they’d be completely justified in seeking allies abroad to defend them. Ukraine, the Baltics and Poland all have very good, very *recent* reasons to want security against Russia. As for the Cuba comparison, I’d say Cuba was completely justified in seeking Russian aid if that was what their country wanted, and not only that let me point out the obvious, *we didn’t invade Cuba.* We thought about it, but we didn’t. Keep pushing your pseudo-intellectual “hur dur both sides” bullshit but know that anyone who thinks about it for more than a second can call you out on your lies. Tl;dr Russia has a right to be upset about NATO’s expansion. They also should really understand *why* these countries are so desparate to get into NATO and why the solution isn’t and has never been invading other sovereign states. This is a problem **they** created themselves and now they’re mad they have to deal with the consequences. So what you're saying is that Putin could have just built a wall? Dumbfucks and liars Yea he really OWNED him by pointing back to his whole post instead of actually addressing it logically I don’t think you understand. 500bn in fx reserves doesn’t mean shit if the entity holding it can’t spend it anywhere. It doesn’t require maximillism lol. North Korea has usd but it doesn’t mean that you can legally transact with them as a company in any modern western nation. > “CDS spreads are way up” We’re not talking about Rub denominated debt. If Russia gives up on the ruble entirely. They lose economic autonomy and will be fully beholden to foreign monetary policy. That automatically relegates them to the economic status of a state like Panama. I don’t think the phrasing of his statement is accurate. Yes China has purchased around a trillion dollars in US bonds but that is not the same as you and I using a credit card. They purchase those because they are a good and safe invest. That also means they would loose a lot of that investment if the dollar drops. I dumbed it down. This situation is world superpowers showing who has the bigger dick and it won’t end up well. I’m equally “blaming” everyone. I honestly thought the world was smarter than this. Literally one step closer towards ww3 and that is scaring me to my core. Honestly, that is all. Them not being able to spend it *anywhere* requires maximalism. I just explained to you why you *can’t* equally blame everyone because not everyone is equally to blame. If you’re not capable of seeing that and admitting when you’re wrong then you’re not only wasting my and everyone else here’s time but you’re actively harming the very idea of fighting for your own sovereignty from an occupier. Fuck you if you honestly wanna make this an “i hate all sides!” Moment from the luxury of your unshelled apartment building lmao this is no one but putins fault Russias entire GDP is less than Texas. I hardly think they are a superpower. Your disregard of understanding that actions lead to consequences from an elitist POV is simply disgusting. US had intervened in Syria, Lybia, Iraq, Iran, Afganistan, Yemen, Pakistan, Somalia, Uganda, Indian Ocean in 21st century only and nobody gave two flying fucks. You cheered the killing. You elitist hypocritical (*insert an insult here*). I just gave you a stupidity award. Weird how none of those places are Ukraine, and weird how you’re assuming my reactions to them were positive. You’re acting like a Russian yourself here with all these whataboutisms dude. In the Ukraine crisis there is a clear cut good and bad side. One side fighting for the right of a people to be sovereign, and one not. The Middle Eastern wars have nothing to do with that. dog u buy reddit coins who’s the stupid one I don’t plan to waste to another second on you. Glad you have your opinion. But at the end of the day, Putin is defending his country same as everyone else would theirs. Fault is on many sides whether you wish to admit that to yourself or not. Whatever makes you sleep better. Also, neither of us will ever know the true state of the matter, politics work that way. Enjoy your day. Money well spent on this one if you asked me. Chuckled nice. 10/10 worth. Defending your country doesn’t constitute invading another. Just stop wasting everyone’s time and admit you’re an actual fascist apologist lol. Your only defense here so far that’s held any weight is “wHaT aBoUt AmErIcA?!” And I agree, America is usually bad with this shit. Right now it’s Russia though, so all us non-fascists are condemning Russia. You can do your own thing though that’s fine :) I guess if you’re moneys fucking worthless, might as well😂 I usually don’t make a fuss about couple cents :) You will now. That’s like 1,000 rubles You are nothing but a propaganda poster with no voice. Just give up." 'I can't get my money out': Billionaire investor Mark Mobius says China is restricting flows of capital out of the country,1914,https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/mark-mobius-china-investing-capital-restricting-outflows-markets-strategy-jinping-2023-3,"Excerpt from the linked content^1 by Carla Mozée: >Mark Mobius, a pioneer in emerging markets investing, said China is restricting investment outflows from the country, a move that would be taking place as the world's second-largest economy is trying to shake off pressure from COVID-19 lockdowns. >""I'm personally affected because I have an account with HSBC in Shanghai. I can't get my money out. The government is restricting the flow of money out of the country,"" Mobius said on Thursday on the Fox Business show ""Mornings with Maria"". >""So I would be very, very careful investing in China,"" the founder of Mobius Capital Partners said. >Mobius, who has spent decades traveling the world searching for investment opportunities, said he hasn't been able to get an explanation about why he's running into the restrictions in China. >Mobius's warning came days before China's President Xi Jinping was expected to cement his third term at a key government meeting starting this weekend. ^1 Carla Mozée for Insider (Axel Springer) 3 Mar. 2023, https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/mark-mobius-china-investing-capital-restricting-outflows-markets-strategy-jinping-2023-3 Hasn’t modern China *always* restricted outflows of capital? Thoughts and prayers What it is they always tell us? Don't invest more than you can afford to lose? Investing in a country controlled by communist regime is always risky. I’m having trouble seeing the other side of this Mobius story. Gee, who could’ve seen that coming? Well, you knew exactly what you were doing Mobius. Ordinary non billionair people should rather start worrying about massive (and incredibly irresponsible) investments sunk into Chinese assets and projects by our Pension funds and Asset management companies ![gif](giphy|LgL8A8sMyUFFvNPli2|downsized) They have currency and capital controls for quite a while... Fuck around and find out Fuck around find out when you invest in a country that has a heavy influence on business, doesn't respect property rights, intelectual property, or civil rights. Wouldn’t news like this typically trigger a massive outflow of capital? Nobody likes to have their money locked up. Haha dipshit, enjoy getting fucked over by the CCP. CCP Bugs Bunny: ""Our money..."" Shocking, I tell you. Companies have had issues for decades trying to pull capital out of China and this genius thinks he's special. Investing comes with Risk. I mean, a communist rin Country to invest in is pretty fucking risky to begin with. Oh well…..anyways Haha, no pity from me. This what happen when you do business with communist and also dictators if you’re investing in china and getting in bed with the ccp it’s not really your money anymore Oh great, more China investment problems. “Oh wow, whoever could have seen this coming?” I said to myself in my most shocked of shocked voices. Anyone whoever read a write up of what it takes to buy China A shares direct could’ve seen this coming. > They're putting all kinds of barriers,"" he said. ""They don't say, 'No, you can't get your money out,' but they say, 'Give us all the records from 20 years of how you've made this money,' and so forth. It's crazy."" Critical excerpt right here… sounds like he’s being investigated, and as he’s built a career on manipulation, I’m not surprised. This article’s motivation is now questionable to me, though. Great way to damage the Chinese economy long-term as foreign investment will now completely dry up Don’t worry. The money will trickle down from China back to you. How are people honestly surprised when a communist nation does communism?!? Kick rocks, sir! Skill issue Billionaire finds out what the EM risk premium is all about, news at eleven. What the actual fuck is this comment section. I think some of you might think you are in a different sub. Why would you ever leave money in a chinese bank? it’s not a free market. So this can’t be surprising That’s why you don’t do business with communism What did you expect when you deal with governments that suppress freedom? I guess it’s not morbin time This guy should be the sequel to Morbius . Its Morbin time baby You should've never played with that pig on lsd in the first place. [deleted] He is like: „Jo gimme my money back I’ve lost everything on some highly leveraged derivates.“ what did he expect investing large amounts in china He literally made all of his money investing in Asia. God is good 🙏 Why the f* would any rational person put $$ into a system which could deny your investment, put you in jail, lie about financials, etc. Sorry - not sorry …. China has always had this kind of policy on limiting capital outflows. This should have been a consideration before making the investment I'm trying really hard to give a shit. It isn't working. Investing in China is so incredibly stupid. The CCP can take your money whenever they want, with impunity. Fuck the CCP A lot of you criticizing an investor for investing in internationally emerging or global markets, such as China, are quick to forget you, too, do the same by purchasing assets mostly manufactured in said country. Diversifying in countries other than one’s own has historically been proven a solid strategy, and most of your retirement accounts are most assuredly made up of some small % of Chinese investments, With that said I don’t know anything about Mark Mobius but he sounds like a whiner for conplaining about the ‘risk’ portion of risk v reward but it is a notable and unusual warning to other investors. Duh I would NEVER DEPOSIT MONEY IN CHINA!!! Poor baby. Never trust finance bros Commies never let any money leave country EVER! COMMIES KEPT ALL MY FAMILIE'S MONEY, HOUSES & BUSINESSES when we left Cuba! COMMIES ARE ALL THIEVES EVERYWHERE! Lol ohnoanyway.gif Obviously The United States ought do the same. I knew this would happen, just not so soon Dammit! I can’t find my tiny violin for billionaires…. Awww, poor billionaire! We should hold a benefit concert for him! Assuming this is even true..you can’t believe a word of what any of these guys say. He could just be doing it to spread fear. Anyways..smallest violin is playing Oh no, poor oligarch! I cannot believe the leopard is eating my face. ""Give me money. Money me. Money now. Me a money needing a lot now"" Meanwhile across the US Board we had a generally very Green Day. Wonder what kind of day Monday will be The problem Mark is you still think it's your money I don’t listen to strippers like Möbius But no really, what are the chances this causes a run on Chinese banks? Hmm maybe investing in a communist dictatorship wasn’t as good an idea as previously thought Nancy Pelosi should invest..!! China is broke and you know that only now? Lol 😂 Poor fucking booboo baby Is anyone here surprised? Edit: It's been almost impossible for over a decade. The Chinese people have been using luxury goods like Rolex watches to get money out. Few months ago,when I said the CCP wouldn't let people make money from their controlled market, I get a lot of down votes and humiliation. Yeah dude that is how communism works. Everything in the country belongs to ""the people"" and by ""the people"" they mean not you. You're not going to get your money and businesses with physical assets aren't going to get those out either. Ahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha Well if history is correct, he’ll get a sweet bailout compliments of the US taxpayers. Sorry for your 10% loss mr mobbish, thoughts and prayers!!!!!!!!!! Update when news call him millionaire Oh no! Anyway ### BOO HOO. ![gif](giphy|9RsuYA73yqp1spEaBJ|downsized) Play china games, win stupid prizes North Americans so brainwashed, they still think they’re democracy 😂😉 Mark Morbius? Is he worth one morbillion dollars BOYCOTT CHINESE GOODS As he wipes his tears with 100s ""Smart"" money It's Mobin Time!!! Lol Lol, lmao even Ring James Packer? Most American stock investors should've listened to what he said before trying an investment in China's domestic markets. Not to mention, China's financial & business risk is too dangerous to ignore, honestly. You knew the definition of risk, right mr billionaire ? ![gif](giphy|13A7YlLvYVDnmU) Why would they do that if their financial market was NOT set for a crash? Reason? China is stuck trying to keep insolvent banks from collapsing with bad real estate debt on the books. And their dollar peg is failing (can’t keep printing money to peg your currency to the dollar forever). It’ll be like an economic Fukushima and Chernobyl having a baby when this all comes to a head. It’s a PonXi You fool. Sorry. I love how shocked greedy investors are when they realize investing huge amounts of capital in a country that directly wants to destroy your own country, are screwing them over. Boo hoo try having to choose between rent and food It's like an economic cockring 😱 I’m sitting here weeping for him- no really…🤣🤣🤣 So that’s how China is sending arms to Russia No longer morbin time in China. Ethiopia I’m shedding, crocodile tears. I feel so sorry for you, boo Hoo Something something billionaires deserve it because they took the risk. I’m sick of the whining of the rich when their investments fail It's morbin' time! Well, yeah. Increasing money inflow and restricting money outflow has been the standard for China. For decades. Oh no! Anyway how about those sports teams? Aww poor kid 😂 [but it’s not far, it’s funny to hear them complain](https://youtube.com/shorts/gAUJ67ep2Eo?feature=share) 🤣 and this is why ive been telling people that chinese financial markets will never overtake the american ones World’s smallest violin. This is the golden ticket! Imagine someone doing unto you what you’ve always done unto them You get what you fucking deserve ZERO sympathy. They made a deal with the devil and now they need to learn to live with the consequences. china numbah wahn Aw yeah, it's Mobin time. They’ve been doing this for 5+ yrs. They’ve placed restrictions on capital flight. CCP is hellbent on locking the world into them red rambos Oh no, a billionaire who invested in an authoritarian country got burned. Thoughts and prayers, hopefully he will still be able to buy that 4th yacht. So he invested his money in a corrupt country with a shady economy and he’s gobsmacked that he can’t get his money out? That’s rich. News flash. The second you invest in China, your money is gone forever. So a capitalist who used authoritarian government to exploit people’s rights to steal labor is surprised when said government steals their money. Well its called authoritarianism. Stop funding these nations and maybe things will get better.. First off. Surprise! Communist country doesn't give a shit about capitalists' money. I would say you get what you deserve, but the current geopolitical console, I would be actually surprised if he didn't expect this. Or they really are that stupid. I mean there were reports of crematoriums going full blast so much that it was noticed from space satellites, along with reports that they were stacking them 5 to 10 deep because they were so backed up, an alternative of bribery being necessary if you didn't want to wait days to weeks. After shit like this, is it a surprise that things aren't going well? Secondly, fuck these guys. Just from his answers, you get the sense that this dumbfuck does jack shit in terms of due diligence and stumbles into wealth and opportunity. Enough money to take so much risk that a few billion lost in China doesn't stop him rising more money into other risky politically risky situations without a car in the world. Honestly, I hope this person loses all invested wealth and has to start with nothing. Though we all no that over you're a billionaire, you're never worrying about being zero for the rest of your life. I have no empathy for his loss. The sign was on the wall since the Hong Kong takeover, and earlier even. Oh no. Anyways. Oh well![gif](emote|free_emotes_pack|downvote) ![gif](giphy|ShiN3yxot3ihHrmZfp|downsized) Let me dig out my violin from my thimble Why would anyone invest in China / Chinese companies, is beyond me. I guess these are the same geniuses who invested in Russia... Too bad for him Shame. Poor him. Nelson—-Ah Ha! boohoo Now you know how it feels every time I go to an ATM… Well now you know how Russian billionaires feel about their money stuck in the US So much for a global village free flow of funds eh? Back to the sovereign states we go Suck shit : an Aussie r/LeopardsAteMyFace 🎻 surprisedpikachu. No shit sherlock! Perhaps his leverage is his ability to scare new investment away from China. https://youtu.be/rMaSh20qBbg This guy looks like he’s gonna fund a gigantic alien gyroscope and send Jodie Foster through it for seconds/18 hrs. If you were on the ball you would have pulled it out as soon as sanctions were put in place. Good What did he expect? The CCP are scumbags Surprised man bitten by wild snake he keeps in house Bitcoin unaffected. Well who else isn't surprised? Guess I'm smarter than a billionaire. Should have parked his money at svb Wait it’s gonna get worse. Countdown was 60 days someone said for the stock market and banks are waiting on line to see who’s next Just wait till he discovers he either can't get into China due to this comment or cannot get out due to being taken to a millionaire reeducation camp for causing a potential capital flight problem and currency devaluation as a result of his comments. China is also getting rid of Big4 external auditors and replacing with their own. Would avoid at all cost Aholes like Mobius and Dadio deserve to get screwed over by China. These guys banged the drum to get in bed with these CCP crooks. Hope they lose it all. Insert *First time?* meme His money stuck in a mobius strip: bank - shell company - bank. Poor boy. Do you need a shoulder to cry on Yes, and ???? I don’t know but people who do business there often insist on offshore escrow accounts so they know they’ll get paid, I know that I’ve worked in corporate treasury since 2010. The golden rule was if you put money into a China bank account, don’t expect to get it out. This was my first thought. Even fresh-off-boat randos arriving in China quickly find out that you need to all sorts of documentation to have any hope of getting your money out of China. To its own people Yes. This comes across as click bait. Tsla has encountered this as well as any ex pat that has earned a salary paid in CNY Yes. That’s been an extremely well known and fairly uncomplicated process for quite a long time. All that is required to move personal funds out of the country is simple documentation and proof that taxes were properly paid on any income earned. It’s not at all a difficult process, at worst it can just be time-consuming. The fact that he is outraged by this means one of two things: either he’s a total idiot and is terribly ignorant for a “emerging markets investor” or he did know this and just wants to stoke outrage. Business capital outflows are moderately more complicated but they are also something that’s very very very clearly outlined when creating/purchasing/or investing in a domestic company. I think what he meant was they are restricting MY outflow of capital. So now I care. God please let CCP give my money back, I promise I will never invest in communists country, and I will build a church. Amen 🙏. Thots and players Oh no. Let’s start a go fund me guys But that does noth….ohhhh ;) why aren’t American laws protecting profits in foreign countries? Somebody send the US taxpayer funded army to make my offshored jobs work harder for less. Good one!! …you smart bastard. Enjoy the weekend. Poor little rich man! Todays day in age biggest F U. Hats and beans, Hats and Beans He thought he could Mobin’ all over them and take all the money out And eat less food :) A lot of people focus on higher risk = higher reward without actually fully comprehending the risk component. Investing in China is a fools errand. Even munger got out. Good to see him practice self reflection and self correction. I think you mean authoritarian regime Investing in any totalitarian country is always risky. The exact same thing happened in Russia under Putin and nobody would argue that Russia is run by anything except a bunch of power-hungry capitalists. Its not communist, because in their economy the workers arent getting a cut of the company’s profits, they are paid per hour like America. Shareholders are actually closer to being communists. Its authoritarian, because one guy calls the shots. But your point stands. ""Communist"" in the loosest sense. you mean fascist genocidal regime? [deleted] [deleted] Underrated comment. Well played The average person doesn’t have access to the ability to invest directly in China. Any China exposure would likely come from stocks listed in the U.S. that are technically Variable Interest Entities that. They are shell companies in the Cayman Islands to skirt around laws about foreign investment in China. *stunned Pikachu face* You mean.... you mean they also wouldn't respect the rights of investors?! (gasp) EDIT - (also clutching pearls, both metaphorically and literally) It certainly would trigger a reduction in inflows of future capital... They've had currency controls for a long time. This really isn't news, seems like clickbait or misrepresentation tbh Possibly but there are several ways to invest in China, including through Hong Kong. https://research.ftserussell.com/products/downloads/Guide_to_Chinese_Share_Classes.pdf Also there is other news that might counter it, that manufacturing is up dramatically since the lockdown was lifted and that some sort of agreement was forged this year about the transparency of China companies trading overseas, which would seem to indicate a desire to encourage foreign investment at the moment. I’m not trying to boost China, I think it’s difficult, but just some more facts to add to the conversation Sir, this is a Chinese Wendy’s. Greedy idiot investors arent going to disappear overnight. Shit, some people still trust russia. China won’t have any chance at building Communism if they continue to rely on foreign investment. John Xina is making it clear to foreign investors: your time is up, my time is now. Yeah. A few public comments like this can cause an international investors bank run. They’ll eventually let him take his money out though, the consequences of not doing so are too severe. How can investors pull out money when the issue is the money cant be pulled out? No new money would be an issue It does come off like rank propaganda, but who knows. They do have a slew of new ministers appointed. It’s possible they just set a new policy investing is not the same as buying a product. The US is fairly dependent on Chinese exports and vice versa. It is pretty much impossible to avoid all products with a connection to China. It *is* possible to not invest in a country that can steal your money with impunity. Are you seriously equating buying something assembled in china that has already made it into another country with investing money that is in the control of a chinese company? I would never DEPOSIT MONEY IN ANY COMMIE COUNTRY! Humiliation? Did people throw rotten tomatoes at you or something? China isn't a communist country, anymore atleast, if they ever were in the first place. They're pretty capitalist if you look at their economy, well authoritarian with capitalist tendencies to be more precise. They have hourly and salary employees, the wealth isn't equitably distributed amongst the population which is the definition of communism. r/lostredditors Printing money to maintain a foreign currency peg doesn't sound like it'd work for a *minute*. The country not him Reddit used to give out free gift medals every once in awhile like “seal” but its not letting me do it anymore. This comment here deserves one. Also I refuse to pay for them. Thank you. Yeah, because the Big4 have such an unimpeachable record Isn't Dalio still shilling for them even now? Last thing I heard from him a year or two ago he recommended we split our investments between the US and China. Maybe he hopes that publicly supporting them will keep his Mainland assets safe. Good luck with that. I never thought the Leopards would eat *my* face! That’s what I thought… I mean… I thought this was Freshman-level stuff. Möbius is an emerging markets guy. He’s got to already know all this. Hmm. It’s odd ![gif](emote|free_emotes_pack|facepalm) > I promise I will never invest in communists country If you still think China is a communist country, you probably shouldn't be investing your money anywhere. Why Church? It works! It's a miracle. Thx. I'm in Vegas drinking beer. Going to a concert soon. Decent weekend. :) There's always a bigger Mobin. > Even munger got out. [Not exactly](https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/charlie-munger-downplays-risk-taiwan-invasion-says-crypto-fans-are-idiots-2023-02-15/). He did sell some holdings but he also keeps shilling BYD (his favorite) and he keeps recommending that people invest in China. It's confusing, there doesn't seem to be a clear strategy anymore with what Buffett and Munger are doing. Especially the latter seems extremely senile at this point, who knows if he even still manages the assets himself. Yeah if you want the US government to bail you out, it's apparently not hard at all, but you at least have to have a decent portion of your funds/operations here. Communism works only in authoritarian regimes I would argue it's run by the Russian mob, but I guess you could argue a criminal organization is capitalist? One party calls all the shots, not one guy. Why is this downvoted? I thought people on here were at least partially educated. (Though you don't need an education to google what communism is.) Eh not entirely Isn't that how they refer to themselves? [deleted] Anytime outflow is limited or blocked, typically triggers a panic where everyone wants to pull their money out, oftentimes leading to even more drastic repercussions. Retail investors, sure. Not sure if large corporations will be willing to invest in Chinese manufacturing and industry given the CCP’s heavy hand and unpredictable policy approach though. Wait a minute, That is Xina! He shaved his head! You can't Xi me! We need to stop investments and co reliance and move towards aggression imo. Either them or us The country is ruled by one party the CCP. Yes Xi is very powerful but still rose through the ranks of the communist party. Does it have capitalist zones? Yes, but if the government can and does seize money from businesses and citizens whenever it wishes without recourse then is it capitalist? >it used to give out free gift medals every once in awhile like “seal” but its not letting me do it anymore. The gamification of finance was geopolitical after all it seems. Here I did for you. I don't why but suddenly my account was premium and had 100 coins to spend since yesterday. Passing it on. I didn’t pay for that. You like slobbing CCP cock a little too much! Better than their flying weather balloon When the civilian public of two nations is socially and financially interwined those nations’ governments have no incentive - much less support - to pursue divisive policies. Hard when either of those governments makes an unreliable business ecosystem for those civilians to operate in Definitely an exercise in what not to do for international bank accounts. He probably assumed they'd make exceptions for Billionaires. BYD seems popular in China. Now we just wait Tesla to be kicked and the stock price of BYD probably gonna spike. >he keeps recommending that people invest in China. Maybe he can sell his China investment to YOU! There’s no shortage of ooportunities to get extremely rich through government corruption in China, or the state simply tipping the scales in your favor, but the rewards are unpredictable. One moment you’re idolized in all the official government media, and the next you’re exiled, or even sentenced to death. Salvador Allende's Democratic Socialist Chile was working so well it had to be put down by a US installed authoritarian regime, so as not to be an example for the rest of Latin America and the world. I mean Putin made most of his money buying state oil and reselling it in Europe for a massive markup after the Soviet Union collapsed. That's how he originally became a billionaire oligarch. By exploiting a failing communist system before it went private. But one guy controls the party and wasn't the supreme leader given the authority to take the country in any direction he chooses? It's state capitalist. There is no democratic worker control of the means of production, which is the definition of socialism/communism. Boy are you going to be shocked when you investigate further into the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. I can refer to myself as the emperor of the world, but that doesn't make it true, does it. North Korea is officially known as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, but when I think of democratic republics, I don't think of North Korea. Yes, on top of no one wanting to put any more money into a now dumpster fire Good points, I guess I wouldn't really know what to call it then. Authoritative oligarchy perhaps? someone gave you a gold fir a comment This doesn’t even make sense. Im saying his comment deserves a medal because it talks about the things china does to people when things don’t go in their favor. How is that in anyway being a positive for the ccp? Not very good at reading comprehension are we? What do you mean? We should have apartheid? ? Yes, they should make authoritarian regime first, and than build communism on top. Not the other way around. Allende? The same guy receiving massive weapons shipments from the USSR for a Soviet-backed Communist revolution? Who also said a million dead Chileans was an acceptable cost to bring about Communism in Chile? You might want to learn a little Spanish and read primary sources. I'm not sure how many of your own citizens you have to plan to kill to qualify as an authoritarian, but I'm guessing a million is more than enough. If it reads like a cartoon then it probably isn't true, not entirely anyway. Xi seems to have consolidated significant individual power, but I would imagine it's a complex power dynamic that we have very little and poor intel about. I don't know why they're booing, you're right True. And China investments are not far from just that to begin with. Shut up China bot! XD Just say you like nuts on your chin and be on your way little miss thing Uhm… only exactly the opposite? Cheap shot scum I'm just saying that's a usual strategy when someone wants to sell their garbage investment, talk it up in the hopes that someone else buys it from them. When I said 'YOU', I didn't mean you personally. I meant 'YOU' as in the rest of us. Yes, Munger does seem senile at this point. If he wants you removed: regardless of rank, youre removed. Its one guy calling the shots. If Xi says indefinite lockdown, your doors get welded shut. Of course it takes people to run a govt. Putin, Erdogan, have people as well, still authoritarians. And while we can argue authoritarian semantics, we can definitely say there is no communist economy, as the word gets thrown around for its negative connotation with no understanding of its denotation. I'm not even a communist, I just care about truth That's the best you got? Misgendering me and homophobic remarks? I pity you. Can you speak English and not code Got you. And yes, good point. He may be old but he still knows how to sell things to a greater fool. It's fascinating watching how there are millions of people who listen to what billionaires tell them as if it were gospel. As if they were charitable folk who just want everyone on the same level. Go back to playing WoW You are the scum of the earth you oprobious wretch What? Billionaires don't want what's best for the rest of us? The hell you say! I don't play WoW but I am glad to see you've dropped the homophobic stuff, so that is, as they say, progress, of a sort. Real progress would have been you learning to not be an asshole but you know, baby steps.." Short sellers betting against Tesla lose more than $1 billion in single day as stock surges,1911,https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/24/shorts-betting-against-tesla-lose-more-than-1point4-billion-in-single-day.html?&qsearchterm=short%20sellers,"> Investors betting against Elon Musk’s electric-auto maker Tesla collectively lost an estimated $1 billion-plus on Thursday as the company’s stock headed for its best day on Wall Street since 2013. > Tesla popped 16.5% Thursday to around $300 per share, meaning short sellers betting against the stock are on track for $1.4 billion in mark-to-market losses on the day — wiping out almost 70% of short sellers’ year-to-date profits, estimates S3 Analytics. > To be sure, those who bet against Tesla at the start of 2019 are still in the black to date with the equity down more than 11% this year after Thursday’s price moves. Tesla stock closed at $254.68 on Wednesday, which at the time represented a 23.4% slide for 2019 > Tesla is the most heavily shorted stock in the U.S., as well as the most heavily shorted automaker in the world. Short interest, or the number of shares borrowed in hopes of buying them back at a profit after the stock drops, totals $9.03 billion for Tesla, according to S3 [deleted] r/wallstreetbets ""Its hard to short a cult"" Edit: To those of you who can't tell, this is a joke. Well done to him, honestly. ​ There is a line between a fraudulent charlatan and a prophetic visionary - a vague one, but definitely there. Musk is the latter. Even if Tesla fails in the long term, he has single-handledly changed the paradigm of the automobile industry to that of electric vehicles and greater energy renewability. ​ And likewise, there is a line between a rational skeptic and a niggling bien-pensant of an idiot - again, a vague one, but definitely there. Musk's critics are proving themselves to be the latter. I won’t bet against a man who can launch rocket daily 🤣 r/wallstreetbets ""Stormy weather in Shortsville"" -EM, 2017 [https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/848935705057280001?lang=en](https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/848935705057280001?lang=en) For every squeeze new shortsellers spawn Unless the puts/shorts were cleared today, I don't think they're is a loss. Tomorrow is another day. Love the photo lol REKT 😂 Anyone check how many people have committed suicide at /r/wallstreetbets? It was crazy watching it shoot up afterhours... That doesn't happen too often. I almost feel bad for the bears... Almost. Any piece of good news is never as good as the market reaction indicates in a highly shorted stock. But maybe Tesla will be able to meet the market's expectations from their Chinese production that is coming online. And the show continues today ! Another 300 mil “They knew the risks!” This is the stupidest this subreddit has ever been. Good Lord. Haven’t people learned their lesson already? Musk is from the future. Pretty sure my finance professor owns some TSLA because in class he was going on and on about Musk listening to the finance guys and proving a bunch of shorters wrong. Looks like everyone who bet against Elon came up short You don't bet against the sun god. I don't follow the stock but just a quick scan of the balance sheet and cash flow statements shows a fairly healthy solvency and liquidity position and a ton of non cash charges. DA almost covers the entire loss. They paid 3.7 B in debt and still ended up with an increase in cash. Not a lot to hate. “Never bet against an amazing and groundbreaking product”? I'm sure it won't bother him New to trading? Just DON’T TRADE EARNINGS ITT: short sellers Ha must suck. Tesla bears have the worst rationale for being against the stock...like it’s not priced in that they have a large amount of debt.... Is there a website to find information of financial institutions? Do you study investing before deciding where to invest? How? Let's share. So, these are long term short sellers? People that shorted weeks or months ago expecting a long term decline rather than people that shorted this morning. Most heavily shorted stock in the US and we wonder why we always see so much negative press around Elon and the company right before it goes up... Elon Musk is today's Thomas Edison, any money-man should understand that he is the safest bet in ""science"" even though he is not a scientist per se. [deleted] [deleted] “Short tesla literally free money” - wallstreetbets probably Nah even wallstreetbets know not to screw with Tesla's volatile stocks Yep. That Herbalife guy learned the same lesson the hard way, and he was targeting a business that was 1000% sleazier than an electric carmaker. Tesla at least makes a product that people want. Yes it's even worse when the cult is delivering on really hard shit, the cult has been learning how not to sound like crazy maniacs, the world needs them to deliver and they have access to pretty much unlimited capital Why is it a cult? I’ve driven two of the cars myself and really enjoyed it. I could see myself driving one in a few years once I’m more financially stable. I guess I dont understand where the cult part comes in? Prophetic visionary? That seems a bit much. One thing I like about him is that while he’s human and does stupid shit like getting into a twitter-beef with a veteran, at the end of the day he really does try to do good. From making Tesla’s electric designs available to other car companies, to helping schools in Flint have clean water, he just steps up and tries to move humanity forward even though it won’t benefit him personally as much as being another shitty billionaire would. 'prophetic visionary' lol ok joe rogan Also the critics are not full idiots. They have great reasons to criticize tesla based on the production issues, barely managing to make a profit after all this time, and the decision making of its CEO. They're partial idiots because they don't take into account the bigger idiots who hype up Tesla and Musk despite all these criticisms. A smart trader factors in the irrationability of the market and unquantifiable things such as cult following. It wouldn't be so bad if the short selling didn't involve viral marketing about how overvalued Tesla is. Elon certainly deservse it, but anyone holding Tesla stock doesn't. It's nice to see these guys liquidated. TFN: Trust for financial companies, CRM for business and Insight I've seen this while researching financial information. Pretty sure they’re using prior month data which comes from NASDAQ. Since they’re an analytics firm, they very likely may be making adjustments to the data...but the only “official” info about short interest is from the prior month. What are you suggesting? Have we gotten so down on the hate that we are calling a quarterly report a *circlejerk now*? Also please don't spend millions on a PDF, I'll do it for 10k, man, same quality guaranteed Is this a whoosh? You’re saying they spent millions on a blurb to answer questions when the media come knocking? Smart. People see them as innovators. I highly doubt they want to start pushing ads onto Hulu just yet...there isnt enough supply [deleted] It cannot go tits up because based on the actual stats of the company, the stock is overvalued like a motherfucker. they just recently made their first ever profit in any quarter yet they were huge way before that because of hype. They have a ton of production problems and no rational trader would buy their stock at price if just looking at the fundamentals. But most people aren't rational and this affects the market. There is so much hype around the cars and personality cult around Musk, that that fact alone causes the prices to be so high. Thats why when trading, you also have to factor in public psychology, not just the facts of the company. The cult is more about Musk than Tesla. People on the internet, especially in places like /r/dankmemes, /r/pewdiepiesubmissions, /r/space, etc. talk about him like he's singlehandedly saving the world. He's even got multiple subreddits dedicated to just him. My personal opinion is that Tesla's aren't bad cars by any means, but they do have some production issues and, given the uncertainty of Tesla's long term outlook, I don't know if I'd trust their warranty to be available when I want it. Yes, prophetic visionary. I know what I said and I stand by it. Musk transformed a 100 year old industry while running a space exploration company, all with the goal of increasing the survival odds of the human race. This requires more than just good intentions and competence. Love him or hate him, and I did hear that Musk can be deeply unpleasant, but the man is a giant of history. And the short-sellers deriding Tesla for its (admittedly very true) gaps in the principles of reasonable valuation - well, they may make money, but greatness will elude their grasps. See my comment above. If you can get everyone to bet against something that’s a sure thing then you can make good money. This happens with tesla often and people always get rekt [deleted] And all of the [positive social media buzz](https://socialsentiment.io/stocks/symbol/TSLA/) is like free advertising. (Disclaimer: my site) Never underestimate how much they love losing money over there. “Short tesla literally free money” - wallstreetbets ~~probably~~ This is not Tesla’s first profitable quarter. It is the third one but not in a row. Shorts up ytd. yeah but the elon musk fantasy is gonna die out at some point. Correction, never underestimate their willingness to give bad advice to shift the markets while they make more rational bets themselves TSLA is up 6.2% ytd... Think you missed the word..... Future. If everyone there is just shit posting to con other users into making bad bets, does it really have any effect on the markets? I got the impression that everyone there saw themselves as Jordan Belfort-types, but you can’t be a wolf of Wall Street without hapless victims to prey on. Also Stocktwits. What I get for not looking at close price. Still massively underperforming SPY with a much higher beta, so I don't think longs can gloat yet. It's a joke and for Yolos with spare change" "Zillow says it's closing home-buying business and cutting 25% of workforce; earnings miss estimates, shares fall more than 10%",1871,https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/02/zillow-shares-plunge-after-announcing-it-will-close-home-buying-business.html,"Maybe that's for the best for everyone including the housing market as a whole. Isn't Redfin doing the same thing? I wonder how their attempt has turned out. [deleted] Losing money on homes in the market of the last \~12 months takes talent I dont follow this market closely but I wonder how the earnings of its competitors look (or will look). I feel like this is a Zillow problem rather than a canary in the coal mine Please god don't bail out institutional investors in the next crash. The American dream is not to rent your home from a hedge fund. More coverage at: * [Zillow is shutting down its homebuying business and laying off 25% of its employees (msn.com)](https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/zillow-is-shutting-down-its-homebuying-business-and-laying-off-25-of-its-employees/ar-AAQfb2U) * [Zillow to close its home-flipping division, lay off 25% of staff (seattletimes.com)](https://www.seattletimes.com/business/real-estate/zillow-to-close-its-home-flipping-division-lay-off-25-of-staff/) * [Zillow shuts down home-flipping business after racking up big losses (ocregister.com)](https://www.ocregister.com/2021/11/02/zillow-shuts-down-home-flipping-business-after-racking-up-losses) --- ^(I'm a bot to find news from different sources.) [^(Report an issue)](https://www.reddit.com/user/MultiSourceNews_Bot/comments/k5pcrc/multisourcenews_bot_info/) ^(or PM me.) Good. They wanted to disrupt real estate, but disrupted their employees' livelihoods Great, maybe I can buy a fucking house now. It’s practically impossible in this market where pos houses are going for tens of thousands above list price with cash payments. No one wants to jump through the hoops for a first time home buyer who can’t get approved for the mortgage unless they get appraisals and termite inspections done first. These huge investors need to stick to commercial real estate and stop completely fucking the lower and middle classes. Rant over, I’m just really tired and frustrated that I finally have enough saved for a down payment and closing costs and it doesn’t even matter. Companies shouldn’t be buying residential property in the first place. It’s no wonder the housing market is fucked up from CA to NY Everyone please resist from buying their crap at the top of the market. A landlord in my small city owns 33 houses, 22 of his tenants didn’t pay rent during the moratorium. He’s planning to evict and sell as we are having a bit of a bump in prices here, but when 22 houses from just one guy goes on the market… plus whoever else throws in the towel, that is going to change the math on everything. Someone call Steve Eisman and see how much he just made on his short. Hey oh!!!! Who’s ready for the THIRD once in a lifetime market crash and economic disaster within 13 years?!?! Eh anyone? Idk why everyone is celebrating this. Paying 6% in transaction costs to real estate agents is a scam. Technology promised to reduce the transaction costs regarding property transfer, which would have made home buying more accessible. But I guess big company bad, always. Right now the biggest issues in my area and many of the other large cities is Airbnb. I don’t even mind someone owning an Airbnb in addition to their home, but the companies are buying up all the available housing in order to turn it into Airbnb‘s. There has to be a point where landlords are disincentivized to rent properties a short term rentals. Maybe a spike in federal taxes after a certain number of short term rentals by any entity, including corporations. Like if you have one property you rent as short term rentals, i.e. Airbnb‘s, there’s a federal tax of 10%. If you rent to there’s a federal tax of 15%. If you rent three-five there’s a federal tax of 35%. 5 to 10 the tax turns into 50%. After 10 you are no longer legally allowed to operate short term rentals. 50% of the federal tax on income from short term rentals would be earmarked for fair housing and affordable housing construction. This of course would exempt anybody who utilizes short term rentals as part of an owner occupied property. Really the only way to stop Airbnb is taxation. Legislation is so unevenly enforced that taxation would halt it. good. they’re not the only reason i haven’t been able to buy a house in 6 months of looking, but they’re not helping that’s for sure What confuses me the most is how did zillow manage to lose money doing this in a fastly appreciating market I'm not surprised. The house next door to mine was bought by Zillow 3 months ago, and still sits vacant. In this neighborhood houses usually sell immediately for over asking price, but this place was overpriced from the start and they had to lower the asking price (which was also almost the exact amount they bought it for) by $40k before anyone even came out to look at it. I think they based the price on inaccurate comps. There were some houses in our block that sold for the listing price this summer, however they were bigger and better updated than this one and shouldn't have been used as comps. Further, their management has been shit. After buying it, it took them 3 weeks before they even came out to start doing repairs, maintenance, etc. During that time the grass died (because the previous owners turned off the water when they left), large branches were falling from the tree into the driveway (which we went over and cleaned up), and their fruit trees were dropping ripe fruit like crazy and just rotting in the yard and attracting wasps (which I also went over to clean up... And eat...). When they finally started showing up, they would routinely leave the gate wide open, couldn't figure out how to turn the water back on, and then to revive the grass they ran the sprinklers 3x/day until they had mushrooms the size of dinner plates in the backyard. (And we live in a place in perpetual drought.) Finally showings began, but someone left the retractable awning open and it remained open after all showings stopped. It gets really windy here in the Fall and when it became apparent the showings were done and no one was coming to retract the awning (the control is inside the house so I couldn't do it), I called to let them know. But by the time they came out to fix it, there had already been visible wind damage. It's a nice enough house and should have sold quickly at the right price, and had Zillow actually done the minimal work to maintain it. Yet here we are, 3 months later, still vacant. So... Yeah I'm not surprised by this news, and actually relieved. TLDR: Zillow sucks at selling and maintaining the houses they buy, anyway, so I'm not surprised. Good. Real estate should no longer be speculated during these time of home shortage. I know it’s a supply and demand issue.But it’s also screwing up society as a whole in real time.It’s almost like price gouging doing a famine. I sold a condo in August for double what i payed for it originally. So satisfying to watch the market devalue and to know the investor i sold it too is now at a loss. God riddence. Good 👍 Good. Now me and my Father’s lifelong dream of real estate investing is looking probable again. My friend`s dad died and a scammer located the dad's home and ""sold"" it to zillow before the family realized. Zillow emptied the home of all his possessions before they resold it. So the family came in to a different family living there when they went to sell the house. Public records showed the dad had owned the home longer than the scammer had been alive (they had a copy of his driver's license), but they weren't smart enough to realize. The scammer made off with hundreds of thousands of Zillow's money and the family got the house back easily when Zillow provided the scammer's driver's license, and the heirs' lawer pointed out the obvious error to the judge. Time for…. EXECUTIVE BONUSES!!! Bang up job last quarter guys. Total bloodbath for our balance sheet but you really tried hard and you have that whole contract thing. So here’s millions of dollars. Great work everybody. Bad news today but when the housing market heats up again in the spring they’ll be fine. Honestly, searching Zillow beats the shit out of scam artist real estate agents any day of the week. Good? Now sellers can go back to paying 6% in realtor commissions for an arguably small amount of work in many cases. You guys realize they’re going to sell these houses to private money which will continue to drive up the price? Good. Fuck Zillow Now Open Door & Offer Pad [deleted] Have they learned nothing from the 2008 housing bubble?? There has been same discussions and analyst down grades within last 2-3 years. Analysts did not feel comfortable stock $ dropped and people forgot the warnings. Not surprised that disaster lasted that long knowing homes actually appreciate at rapid pace at the same time. Poor business practice carried over from Rascoff. As recent as October this year [warnings](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/zillow-group-stock-may-rebounded-100035625.html)actually were released. Reddit laughs Good I hope they burn and end up like Yahoo! Stupid bastards deserve it, get fucked. I feel sorry for the people that lost their livelihoods to this greedy corporation Zillow has a workforce? Since when does an app need thousands of employees to run? Bwahahaha for Zillow, but not for those ppl losing their jobs over shitty conduct. Ppl! Do your due diligence on a company before taking that job!! /r/antiwork Yep punish their entire workforce for the fuckups at the management level that approve such a purchasing strategy…. Real nice….bet the option to reduce their management salary instead of letting go part of their workforce wasn’t even in the top 10 of ideas they had to remedy their fuck up Oh no! Anyway.... Man, fuck Zillow It's not possible to commoditize housing. Too many variables. Get wrecked Zillow. You bought the tip, now ride it Sounds to me like a bribe that slights home buyers so the vast information provided, is no longer, and certain companies snatch them up Has anyone sold their home to Zillow here? Curious how fast they would buy it. Inspections required? Or were they buying anything even without seeing it. will thier failure lead to the coming collapse If you didn’t see this writing on the wall you’ve clearly never looked at a zestimate. Talk about overextending. Now all the houses will get sold to the private investors who will drive up prices even more… Fuck housing speculators. And fuck landlords. That is all. In all fairness, the last 12 months has been a pretty abnormal time for the housing market. It seems like there was some kind of momentum factor in their pricing model that got way out ahead of itself based on the recent, rapid increase in prices. I'm sure the logistics side of houses sitting in inventory longer than expected due to the difficulty of getting renovations done didn't help either. some form of ibuying is here to stay, whether it's Zillow, Open Door, Redfin, or whoever. The current market practice of individual buyers and sellers finding each other for 1-to-1 transactions is inefficient and expensive. I wonder how much extra they made from regular realtor commissions by driving the price up? Dollar for dollar, it may not be a anan actual loss, and now they have a tax write off. The fix is simple sell to local Fixer uppers on contract. Pool the paper and either book or sell. Bingo, all cash out back at Zillow. And the CEO will probably still get a bonus, lol. Breaking news: Zillow closes home-buying business. Breaking news: 25% of Zillow’s workforce leaves to form new standalone home-buying business. You’re not fooling anyone, corporate America. At least they won't be inflating home prices further Looks like zillow believed there own inflated prices. Good. Where we live shouldn’t be impacted by the whims of wild speculation. We should not be a nation of renters. I’m not mad at Zillow I’m mad at the government for allowing this iBuying (I.e. fancy algorithm driven housing speculation) is insidious and massively damaging to the housing market. It jacks up prices and exacerbates affordability issues for average buyers. Further, the companies doing the buying aren’t even making money doing it after accounting for expenses, mortgage interest and fees. It’s death should be welcome. Probably just bullishly staying ahead of the market. Either a) the house sells above actual value (which prob happens a ton anyways) or b) the market catches up and it still sells for list price. Did it seem they did any improvements or repairs? Or just straight bought and priced it up? It's pretty insane what they're doing. I'm in the buying process and have looked at multiple open door homes. For the folks who kept up with their houses, they fly off the market and with people just throwing their bank accounts at any home that's in good shape, it'll sell for over asking even when asking I'd inflated beyond what comps say it should sell for. For the turds that sit forever, they will take a loss at some point, but they don't budge on anything. I'm in Texas, foundation issues are no different than routine maintenance down hear. If you don't get it fixed early, it crumbles. I've seen two homes that have excessive foundation damage they won't even discuss until you offer asking price. I'm talking so bad every door swings hard on its own. One house I even picked up speed walking across the room because it had sank that far. Still, they will not address it until you offer asking, and even then, they say they'll consider a credit of some sort, but still need it to sell at asking. This house is not about 70 days on the market. Another house I visited had the worst counteracts and backslash installed, which was a vinyl stick and peel backslash that did not match in pattern. It was ghastly. The countertops in the kitchen had this paper like wrap installed to make it look lik granite, but it taped on as if it were segments of masking tape. This one's about 30 days on market now. I hope their business keeps burning money, but I do feel bad for those losing their jobs. The big picture though is this kind of company is making it so much harder for anyone to buy a home because it's straight bullshit. I've seen flippers with no standards put a better deal together than zillow. Fuck them and their shitty painters. Yeah absolutely. In this market, only ones who should be losing are the hapless buyers (in other words people like me). Crazy Zestimates are partially responsible for this insanity, among other real world matters. [deleted] This idea in these words scares the shit out of me. [removed] Yeah that’s a terrible idea, they’re people who actually want to rent It still boggles my mind that this is allowed, or at least not taxed to hell. Between this and airBnB, it just my crazy every time I see an article about the lack of housing. It’s there, it’s just being hoarded like every other commodity He’s long now That’s not what is happening at all. They were buying homes sight unseen to try to flip them for a profit. It was a super speculative business model with tons of balance sheet risk which was ill conceived from the start and never made money even with home prices appreciating because of high capital costs and frictional fees and expenses. That all said, Zillow is not a material portion of the overall housing market, so this pullback isn’t an indication of broader risks. Their business model didn’t even work when home prices were going up. As someone in the housing market for a first home, I welcome it whole heartedly Lol if you say so RemindMe! 1 year Yeah, I think they were flipping houses for more than 6% so idk if I would call them good. You aren't required to sell your house with a real estate agent. This was a cool service for selling your home as is too. No circus of cleaning, fixes, landscaping, staging, inspections or showings. I was really hoping to sell mine to them but I'm just outside their buying area. I can absolutely see why they made no money on it though. The bought up everything with their unlimited capital. What effect do you think that had to the remaining inventory? Prices went up. Then, Zillow flipped those house for way more than the 6% that you would have paid before they created this false supply control. While I’m for innovation and getting rid of that ridiculous 6% as well you also have to take unintended consequences into account. There is already a housing shortage because the super wealthy have been buying up real estate across the US as investments. Having corporations get involved would only exacerbate the problem. There were a lot of people, including myself, that worried they were going to create another housing bubble in the US. Just in the last year home prices have skyrocketed. Imagine if most of the homes in your area were owned by just one or two companies. Yep and yep. No need really to pay realtors, but we do t need a greedy megacorp to replace them. Don't use a realtor. Some people like having someone help them with huge financial changes. Others think they can do it themselves and the process is just a couple clicks on a computer. The sales commission does not effect your ability to buy a home. In fact that commission is split with the agent who spends 6 weeks coordinating showings for you among many of the duties. But according to you charging for a month of work and helping you navigate a huge investment is a *scam.* Better to trust a call center an an app from a company focused on profit with big investments? Short Term rentals are taxed at 13% on every booking in Florida and has the highest saturation point of rentals in the nation. It's a big revenue source for the state and it has not thwarted investors. Why stop at short term rentals? Companies owning 10+ rental properties isn't helping the average home buyer either. What devaluation are you referring to? Zillow fucking up and overpaying doesn’t mean the entire real estate market is done for lol. I bought a condo in the bay area, CA for $410K in 2014. Sold it for $615K in July. I'm hoping for a drop in the real estate market, but in the meantime I'm sitting on a solid chunk of change happy to be watching from the sidelines as well. Lol He was caught holding the bag as some would say. Completely unrelated to this but thank you for sharing your story. If Redfin is in your area it’s a good alternative to Zillow What exactly does an agent do that's a scam? Someone I know lives beside a house that has noone living in there, since the owner is in China. He said there's racoons living in there, and the town cuts his grass, and bills him. Randomly brought up. I don’t think it’s good for this model to fail completely. It would be best if a reasonable and prudent approach was taken and homes bought at a fair value for convenience of the sellers. Maybe 10% of sales happening this way would be reasonable. Maybe focus on condos and townhomes. The real problem here was not enough due diligence. Demand is sky high in Phoenix. Couple that with a massive influx of people and demand for housing exceeding current and new home builds… We may see a dip, but a massive crash? Highly unlikely. The areas of the country that are seeing emigration will be the first to hurt. The current housing market environment is not a bubble like 2008. Are you a human? Bad bot. Tell that to those of us who live in Canada. Ontario and Vancouver are a fucking shit show. I'm curious to how long it takes for other provinces to go the same way. I don't know the details, but my neighbors sold to Zillow this summer and they just said it was ""incredibly easy"". They made it sound like, ""Yeah we just did it last night"". The shortages probably killed them. I would bet they modeled house flips around short turnarounds, but then it started taking an extra few months to get materials and labor which ruined their margins. Agreed. If an individual was aggressively flipping houses to make money and the market fell out under them and they lost it all, I would absolutely tell them that they have no one to blame but themselves. I feel the same about Zillow, and I hope that this stings enough that other companies back away and this ""business model"" doesn't reappear in the future. Now we just need to get rid of foreign purchases of homes for investment purposes, and perhaps housing can become reasonable for buyers again. This is the exact opposite lesson you should learn here. They bought a bunch of houses and couldn’t sell them because the market didn’t care what price they wanted. iBuyers are a tiny fraction of the market. They make money providing speed to sellers who want that. They aren’t bad for housing prices. What’s bad for housing prices are laws that stop development of new housing. So go vote. How does it jack up prices? If I remember correctly ibuyers were originally buying houses below market value, doing improvements, then selling at market value like any other flipper would do. It wasn’t until recently they made the dumb decision to pay above market prices and try to list ever farther above market price, which ended with them having to reduce the price to what people would pay (market value) and why they’re losing all this money. I believe the ibuying experience also removes the 6% realtor commission (I think it’s like 1%) and a bunch of other fees that really add up when selling. They made their money and are getting out. Everyone else will be holding the bag soon. It’s not going anywhere, Zillow just did poorly at it. Now another large corp is going to come in a buy the portfolio at a discount, which does make it profitable for them. The damage has be done and the large corp landlord game isnt going anywhere any time soon. >Its* death I agree it's bad for the housing market. Do you think it's worse than AirBNB? I’ve seen both. But I’ve never seen them do any major repairs, it seems like they just put cheap flooring in and then sell it. Lipstick flip. Yes to all of this. I’m in same state and see the same things. That's because your firm is dumb and you don't understand how things work. You go out there and spend money like crazy to corner the market, you don't figure out how to do anything profitably until you have an effective monopoly. You are putting the horse before the cart here. Get it together! Thank you for your kind words and empathy. I have a friend that owns several rent houses. Somehow he basically pays zero taxes on them while pocketing tons of cash. He is? I can't find anything since 2019 when he was talking about his short positions. Also seems like they didn't factor in lack of contractors and materials. Most of the people who are losing their jobs are the ones who had no control. The ones who made this bad decision just keeps on working in the executive suite. The sellers know way more about the homes than Zillow. I am sure they were dumping problem houses on Zillow that their algorithm couldn't detect. The houses they were buying probably needed way more repairs than usual or had issues like high traffic roads or bad schools that cause them to sell for a discount. In other words some idiot gave quants too much balance sheet because of misguided trust in their pricing models. [deleted] I will be messaging you in 1 year on [**2022-11-02 22:56:11 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2022-11-02%2022:56:11%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/finance/comments/qlf33g/zillow_says_its_closing_homebuying_business_and/hj2oruy/?context=3) [**2 OTHERS CLICKED THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Ffinance%2Fcomments%2Fqlf33g%2Fzillow_says_its_closing_homebuying_business_and%2Fhj2oruy%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202022-11-02%2022%3A56%3A11%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam. ^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%20qlf33g) ***** |[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)| |-|-|-|-| > You aren't required to sell your house with a real estate agent. They make it painful not to though. You won't get access to the MLS and if the buyer has an agent you will end up having to pay that agent anyway. I thought they were advertising a .5% transaction fee, I could be mistaken about that though. Plenty of real estate offices offer concierge services or renovation loans. Zillow just had millions of dollars in marketing to make ppl think they invented it. Wait how many houses did Zillow purchase? Is Zillow really responsible for the wild housing market? Scam might be harsh. Yes but my suggestion is to tax at a much higher rate than 13%. The way it would work is if you on more than a certain number of properties your tax rate goes through the roof. Yes but we’re also in a rental market that is absolute bonkers. Some cities the number of Airbnb‘s is in the thousands. Imagine selling your home to someone and hoping they get fucked as a credible take on housing supply. This entire thread is a mess. Yep, if the market tanks, you'll be right back. Buy low and sell high! Just wait until they run our of water. I’ve watched the Phoenix area explode over the past three decades, it’s not sustainable in the long run. [deleted] I have been looking at the “Zestimates” which is zillows machine generated guess of a house price and they are usually very incorrect. You could see this disaster unfold from miles away when they were buying well above market like lunatics in my vicinity Nah, they couldn’t model the nuances and regional differences that define real estate. One example I heard on the compound show was that someone wrote in that the person representing Zillow essentially bought their house based on a faulty algorithm. Their parents’ house was on the market for a long time and no one was buying because of some little thing. But Zillow came in and the person did no due diligence, snapped a few photos and made a seemingly market value offer. The employee had no incentive to really make sure Zillow was getting a house that was worth it. As a remodeling contractor who left the industry three years ago, Zillow has been beating down my door as of late. Part of their problem is the fact that no self respecting contractor will work for them. As a client, they are horrible - no pay or late pay is their norm. The big players still have materials Eh I don’t hate housing investors necessarily if they are renting out the property. It is still keeping the housing stock available for people to live in, opens up accessibility to people without enough funds for a downpayment, and encourages continued construction of new homes to alleviate housing availability issues. But speculators or people reducing housing stock by owning multiple homes, they should be taxed very punitively. Source for them buying below market value? You just literally explained how it jacked up prices Lol they didn’t make any money, they’re losing a tremendous amount of money No, Airbnb is much worse for certain geographies because it pulls stock permanently out of the market available for local residents and turns it into hotel stock. At least Zillow kept the housing in the market for local residents to buy. Airbnb basically has the effect of diminishing available housing stock, which is massively damaging to cost of living in certain key geographiesz [removed] He may have closed his long by now as well, who knows The contractors and material availability is a lame excuse they’ve used to deflect blame. The idea was shit from the start. If it was good then they would have stuck with it and in time contractor and material availability would improve. They were buying highly variable, very expensive, very illiquid assets without even seeing them using algorithmic trading as if they were all liquid commodities of uniform identity. They failed to properly account for the frictional costs of flipping the homes, the cost of capital to buy the homes, and the magnitude of the pricing arbitrage they were in position to realize. Every single investor in the real estate space could have told you this was a shit idea. They bought a couple of houses on my parents street. They were the more dilapidated ones needing a lot of work. They are still sitting there unsold. My parents neighborhood is like a ghost town. If you have stable, recession resistent employment, significant savings, etc. this isn't remotely true. Thank goodness we have artificially inflated housing prices or else no one would be able to afford a home! If you account solely based on housing prices falling? Absolutely not. Does debt become more expensive? Sure. Do people lose their jobs? Yea. But if you can afford a 10-20% down payment and have a recession proof job, then you're fine. Eh, I’ve got a pretty much recession proof job and a solid down payment built up, problem is shits jumped 20% in my area so It’s just tantalizingly out of reach. Lemme guess , 1/2 % fee but the house is $300,000 over priced? It's really the net saving we should be looking at. > Wait how many houses did Zillow purchase? From the article: >Bloomberg reported on Monday that Zillow was looking to sell 7,000 homes for $2.8 billion to institutional investors, as it looked to unload its portfolio of properties. Some of those sales would be for below the purchase price, Bloomberg said. Imagine selling your home to some llc that payed 20k over asking price because they thought they could rake in that 60k a year in short term rentals, instead of living in it or actually renting it to locals for a decent price like I did for 5 years. Only to have the township ban short terms in the entire development it is located. And the new llc no longer has any ability to profit from the property currently other than long term rentals now to locals. There is just a hint of karma in that. Yeah seriously. However, in reality, most people sell their home because their moving to a different location, upgrading or downsizing. Selling your home and then renting is just a losing proposition 99% of the time. Concern, yes. Probability of happening in the near term, low. Maricopa County commits a ton of resources to conservation. As with everything, we'll see. There's way less credit being extended to subprime borrowers than in the run-up to 2008. I work in secondary markets. We've already seen coupon pricing fall as a reactionary measure to the idea of bond purchasing tapering. This will ultimately drive a rates increase if it comes to fruition. Rates have no where to go but Up Inventory is non existent, builders bottomed out in 08 and never recovered, zoning and environmental considerations have changed in the past 15 years, and we have a bottle neck on supplies. Oh an a growing population. This isn't boomers buying 3rd homes, it's millennials looking for first homes. This isn't going away quickly. There is so, so much more in play than cheap money. One of the reasons Zillow exited this market is because they can't find enough people to fix the homes they bought. This is no where near a bubble. I won't lie, as much as I hate they were doing this... I probably would have sold to them if they agreed to buy at their ""Zestimate"" price. It was so wildly inflated compared to the *actual* sale price of other (even much nicer) places around me that it was throwing off my net worth estimates on Mint and I had to disconnect it. No one's going to buy my shitty house for \*that\* price. The ""zestimates"" in the town I used to live in were off by a factor of about 12x. Homes in my neighborhood at the time were selling between $200K - $300K. Zillow had their zestimates for all these homes listed between $2.5M - $3.5M. I contacted their customer support to give them a heads up that their algorithm was off and the comps are nowhere near these values. They sent back a curt email informing me that I was wrong and their algorithm is based on current market data which accurately reflects home values. Yeah, I've always noticed that my Zillow estimated price for my house is much higher than Realtor.com and about 5% higher than I'd actually get if I placed my house on the market (based on comps), even in this market. One thing that I noticed that may impact their algorithm is that it appears partially based on tax value. My tax value is higher than my neighbors tax value, even though their house would sell for more than mine. My tax value is higher because I bought my house fairly recently (triggering tax appraisal), and they have owned theirs for decades. Zestimates have been pretty bad for a while. I always found it humorous Edit: its currently estimating my house at 330k. I’m pretty confident I could get $300-310 but $330k no fucking way, I would be utterly ecstatic to get that much lol. It says it went up 3% in the last 30 days alone?? I work for a ""big player"" and we still struggle to get materials. We have frequent back-orders and shipping delays even though we are willing to pay well above average. Its not as bad now as it was 6 months ago ago, but its still much worse than in 2019. Yeah, agreed - I don't hate rental housing investors. I don't know about other places, but over here there's a lot of foreign investors in particular though who are flooding the market and buying up properties, and just sitting on them. That's creating a real problem, and definitely different from your average rental investor. People (and institutions) buying up property to rent is much worse than ibuying. Using the property for income means they can afford higher prices, which makes it that much harder to buy for everyone else, which makes more people have to rent, which makes it harder to save capital for a house, meanwhile the more properties they have to rent, the more they can buy. It's a vicious cycle that raises costs for the whole market and prices out anyone who doesn't have start up capital. And in lower income areas you have a bunch of stuck in crappy homes because the owner doesn't want to fix anything or renovate, because for them it's just a cost. Or they do renovate and create luxury apartments and gentrify the area. Just another factor for the shrinking middle class. And I haven't even gotten into airbnbs. I will note that in hot real estate markets, long term empty houses are rare. The main issue is just new stock not being built, primarily because existing home owners don't want it. Look at their earnings reports on their website. If all the houses they bought were above market value and sold at/below market value their Zillow Offers sector wouldn’t be producing income, which they were producing a lot of in 2020. Totally agree. -typed from.... Moms Basement. I'm not sure why he would've gone long on them though. Nothing had changed about their home-buying concept or their leadership. Yep, the CEO even admitted in the earnings call that their algorithm was off and couldn't predict home prices 6 months out like they thought it would. I'm curious how Open Door is doing. They claim it's all fine and they will happily take Zillows potential customers but that could all be lip service. >and in time contractor and material availability would improve. People have been saying that for over a year at this point. It should improve eventually, but its not clear if Zillow could remain solvent for that long. [deleted] Zillow does not have enough resources to move the entire housing market like that. If Zillow overprices a home, it will not sell. They said during the 2008 bust that this time it was different and wouldn’t blow over. Well… what goes up must come down. Unless you are helium. They did for me, which is why I sold to the them. Looks like you sold your house underpriced! Should have sold it to zillow for 2M! Should have sold to Zillow when you had the chance! It rubbish. Not only can you game the comps used by Zillow, it is usually a guess based on avg $ per square foot and doesn’t take a lot of factors needed into consideration. It's hard to believe they could fuck up with such a disconnect like tax value unless they built the model without ever involving or bringing under the hood someone who has owned a home... so, actually, yeah, maybe that's what went wrong 🤷🏻‍♂️ They are parking their money in $100 million Manhattan condos. There's not many people who would otherwise live in such a home. Though, you could certainly argue that one condo could fit like 200 affordable housing units. People can’t pay more rent than what they earn. Vicious cycle can’t continue indefinitely because people will not be able to afford rent it it will continue go up indefinitely. The main issue is people moving to new areas that can't support the influx of people for that amount of land/housing. You can't just magically start building to meet that incredible demand. Green space is already precious as-is. In some old east coast cities and cities with small land mass (eg SF, Manhattan, and Boston proper) there's hardly any place to build. That's why these are the most expensive housing markets in the country. Simple supply and demand, and this case, as you pointed out the demand is exceeding the physical possibilities of supply. All that’s needed to produce positive revenue so to sell houses, so that doesn’t tell you anything about what their cost was. And if you do look at the costs, that doesn’t tell you anything about the price they paid relative to the market value. [removed] They have 3.2 billion dollars of cash. So yea they could stay solvent for a decade based on their current operating income. Nah, picked up a property couple years after the last crash, pure luck, homes sell in a crashed market also. And that's why they are closing that branch. But it WAS their business model. I'm not making a flippant comment that it wouldn't be different. I'm telling you this isn't a bubble **because this time is different**. While I believe homes will revert to their inflation adjusted prices eventually, as Shiller concluded in irrational exuberance, I don't think that date is anywhere near. First we are no where near the level of new homes being built as we were before 08....like not even remotely close. ""New Privately-Owned Housing Units Started: Total Units (HOUST) | FRED | St. Louis Fed"" https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/HOUST We are also experiencing one of the worst material bottlenecks in history. Did you know the US hasn't built a new greenfield cement facility in almost a decade? Haven't built any new copper mines either. And a lot of other industries will be competing for those materials. So yeah, new homes will still be expensive. Then, other than Zillow, there is a lot of new people buying up existing inventories. This is a market that has matured quite a bit since 08 ""BlackRock, other investment firms 'killing the dream' of home ownership, journalist says | Fox News"" https://www.foxnews.com/media/blackrock-investment-firms-killing-dream-home-ownership.amp It's really adorable that everyone thinks everything is a bubble. But this is just asset inflation. You know.... now I'm really wondering if there was any small chance they would have made an offer based on their zestimate? Or an actual appraiser What makes me mad is they don’t even rent out the condos they buy. I worked under a rich lawyer handling his finances. He had 11 houses and condos all over the US. He used them maybe one week a year, the rest of the time they sat empty. Out here they're buying out individual homes, apartments, apartment complexes, anything they can get their hands on: https://www.seattlemag.com/article/how-foreign-investment-changing-our-neighborhoods In SF they've bought entire buildings and left them vacant. One that I'm aware of was a full city block. They only rented out the ground floor commercial because the city made them do it. Rent doesn't have to go up indefinitely to keep people from building capital SF is so expensive because they heavily restrict building. There are tons of single family homes with large yards that could be torn down and replaced by duplexes and condos, which would massively increase available housing, but its often illegal to do so. I’d rather take much taller and denser cities, than massive urban sprawl. Also; that makes it that you’re never truly that far away from nature. You jerk off to gay gloryholes. I don’t much care about what you think of me or what I’m doing. Lmao > So yea they could stay solvent for a decade based on their current operating income. That's what's a little surprising in this case; that investors weren't as patient as they were with the rideshare companies. Homes for up for sale; but the problem is banks tighten up a lot mortgage wise. If you have cash, you will never have a problem No, it was what one person said in tiktok and everyone blindly believed. Zillow ibuying was about making money through vertical integration of services, not jacking up home prices. They thought they could flip a house for ~8% of the final sale price, rather than the usual 12% in closing costs that is usually associated with home buying. Thua they would be able to sell it for a neat profit at its actual price after buying it at a slight discount (but as much as the seller would have actually made at the higher price). The issue is that they couldn't. Mostly because they were buying houses that were not quick sellers because of reno issues. And those reno costs were not accounted for at all in that 12% closing costs figure because it is just eaten by the seller before the house is on the market. Overall, it's the same problem all I buyers have. They don't increase the prices of homes, they just don't make money in any house, especially in this market, because there is no reason for sellers to take the discount. Source: I founded a proptech ai company which provides services to agents/brokera/mls/tech partners/ibuyers for identifying these homes. That’s the number they used to make an offer on mine. I really can't wait for a post-mortem on this. To find out they were making actual investments on such a broken model is surreal as someone who builds these for a living.. Models are broken all over, but fuck, they threw a lot of money behind a concept they had yet to successfully execute. It really makes me think this could be a case of tech bros, smarter than thou, just throwing cash at disruption without considering that the old guard might have some valuable lessons worth learning. Even when you *know* the precedent is wrong, you gotta figure out why it's wrong before you correct it or conclude on starting from scratch. Wow that's terrible, how do you think it could be stopped? Stock market? People with money will be building capital in real estate or stock market. Bay Area is so expensive not because successful real state investments, it is expensive because of tech stocks. Wall Street will continue finance real estate price increase, those without investment are getting out-priced. ( so they move to cheaper areas, and increase housing prices in the new location) I go to San Francisco all the time, there are no tons of family homes on large yards ( there may be some, but I haven’t seen any ). Typical San Francisco neighborhood is tightly packed houses with almost no lots. Yes you can demolish those and replace it with duplex but most duplexes in other areas take up more room than 2 houses in San Francisco. Batter to build 10-30 stories hight but you have to demolish multiple hoses in one location in timely matter. So you have to convince neighbors to sell their houses, at the same time, at reasonable price. Even if you remove NIMBY regulations, there is no legal way to evict and destroy housing of one group of people to build housing for another group of people. Sure but what are you going to do, bulldoze the existing buildings to build taller ones? That is slowly done but you can't exactly plan to do this when other people already own and live in those structures. If you're building a city from scratch, sure. I do think a new city built dense and walkable from the ground up could be interesting. Not sure existing infrastructure anywhere could handle that though. Well it wasn’t investor patience, it was Zillow’s management and board having a come to Jesus and acknowledging that this model doesn’t work. Making it bigger would not fix that problem, so they killed it. Or they paid for “good enough” tech that on the surface looked fine but was inherently flawed. OR, tin foil hat time, they thought they could use this for a long term game. Buy high now to enter the marketplace, get enough of a foothold that they could manipulate pricing and have a kind of Yelp-style lockdown on how your Zestimate could be increased or decreased with an “appraisal fee” eventually. But they ran out of investor confidence or money before it could be fully executed. Taxes honestly. Partner with the local utility company. If the home isn’t being used, tax the property higher There's a few options people have been talking about, but they all have drawbacks that aren't great, or are going to require people to act against their short term interest. * Loosen zoning regulations to allow for more multitenant housing across the region, which would ideally allow for the supply to increase such that even massive ""squatting"" style investments wouldn't be able to keep up in order to artificially inflate the prices. The trick would be getting people to agree to that when they'd see their housing prices drop, which seems like a tall order. There are also some people who are arguing that \*only\* loosening the zoning regulations would not be sufficient, and that the influx of foreign investment would merely double down and we'd end up a city filled with even more mostly empty luxury high rise condos than we have now. I'm not sure if that's true, personally. I think that even if the money were sufficient, the time it'd take for that turnaround would be enough that existing investors who are squatting would panic and divest for some safer area. But that's just my take on it. * Impose additional tax on unoccupied investment (non-primary) homes, homes owned by nonresidents, or a combination of the two. This would probably have the desired effect in the short term, but potentially a risk for long term consequences. (if, for example, commercial real estate was exempt, would this become a housing shortage due to a glut of new commercial buildings? Or if not, would a lack of foreign investment in commercial real estate cause an economic downturn in the area, or has the domestic investment by large tech companies been sufficient for that not to matter? Or as another example, would there be) * Outright ban residential real estate investment with the same restrictions as the bullet point above, which I think is overall a worse plan. I'd rather see revenue come in from the ones who choose to hold out if we're going to take an approach like that. * A focus on high speed public transit in a wider area than the city would make the reasonable commute distance far wider, and thus would have a similar effect to the loosening of zoning regulations (with the similar risk that it wouldn't be sufficient to actually offset the squatting investors' price pressure, but with a nice upside that even if it didn't work for that purpose we'd have a great public transit system. But of course you'd have to convince people to pay for it. Maybe with the tax mentioned above?) * (this one is a non-solution solution, or perhaps a ""solution by disaster"") Other factors could make investing in the area less desirable. If the major tech companies left, for instance, there would be significant downward pressure on the housing market which I think would likely turn into a snowball as investors decide to cut their losses. But of course, the downside of this is that the entire area would face a Detroit-style economic depression from which is probably would not recover unless major companies came back. Anyways, it's a complicated problem without a silver bullet solution, but I think at least in this area we're in a fortunate enough position that if we tried one of the non-disaster solutions mentioned above and it didn't work, it probably wouldn't be fatal even if it had side effects. If housing wasn't all bought up as rental income properties and investments, people would be able to build capital by paying their mortgage instead of paying rent. I'm not saying it's impossible to build wealth outside of real estate. But putting $600-$2000 per month into someone else's pocket is wealth that people could be building for themselves. Not only that, but people seem to forget that if you're changing 10 single family homes into say, 100 apartments you then need to make sure that the area can actually handle the increase in people. 100 family units are going to need better/larger infrastructure for the increased usage of utilities, is there available parking for the increased number of people, can the local school handle an increase of children? Now imagine trying to handle all of that for changing several hundred single family homes into thousands of apartment buildings/condos. There's massive amounts of city planning that need to go into doing this correctly and that takes time and money. There are cities with limits in height that induce the sprawl though. Tucson limits you to 3 stories. You remove something like that and things atleast start to change This is one the few proposals I can get behind. As a rental investor who is of the opinion that my work is helping the community by providing housing to those who can't buy for one reason or another *, I hate being lumped in with the speculators who are treating homes like equities. \* And this is absolutely the case. Every single renter has a story. Some can't buy due to work reasons, some are waiting for the market to soften, some can't get a loan approval. Every renter we work with absolutely needs to be in a rental at this point in their life. It's a conscience choice they are making. Talking a loan on house ( or finance any other investment) is putting money into someone’s pocket. I am not against taxing real estate, I am for better taxing generally to stop rise of inequality. Oh, absolutely. yes it can be done but it will not be fast and more importantly it will not be cheep. People like to give Western Europe as example of dense cities, forgetting that while European cities are dense they aren’t affordable, unfortunately. I am huge believe in benefits of urban living, but I also understand how things get complicated in real life. Exactly. Get rid of restrictive laws and strict residential zoning. It would be a slow process, but in the long run it would be for the best. >Talking a loan on house ( or finance any other investment) is putting money into someone’s pocket A small percent of it is, nothing compared to renting. I don't think renting is the worst thing in the world, but I think big rental orgs should be taxed more heavily. There should be tax penalties at 3 properties, 6 properties, 9+ properties or something like that" Reddit raises $250 million at $6 billion valuation,1835,https://www.axios.com/reddit-raises-250-million-at-6-billion-valuation-c2f8746d-21d9-49e8-a28e-edd69e296e66.html,">Reddit said Monday that it raised more than $250 million in Series E funding from existing and new investors. The company is experiencing record downloads and traffic amid the populist revolution on Wall Street that was seeded by retail investors on Reddit. Details: In a statement, the company said it will use the funds to make more strategic investments in Reddit ""including video, advertising, consumer products, and expanding into international markets."" When ipo ? Edit: Ticker: SNOO $6B almost sounds low. As a redditor, I almost feel insulted that Snapchat is valued \~16x as much Those a rookie numbers! We gotta pump it up! Welp looks like it’s time to leave Reddit soon. Caught a glimpse of the ultra monetized version of Reddit during the WSB coup it was like a scene from “ready player one.” Is there an IPO happening? [deleted] Great, now can they please fix the goddamn video player? And the next person that tells me it's my internet connection can suck a bag of dicks. Reddit could have raised money among us redditors Ask yourself: How is reddit going to produce the profit for these shareholders? If they go public, I’m dumping my entire retirement into this. Maybe the next company to buy bitcoin? Let WSB control Reddits fjnances and we can drive that all the way down to $6 dollars in no time I wish they’d just do the Wikipedia model of asking for a small donation from users once a year. Once they go public, their obligations are to the shareholders. Profits. Growth. And I don’t feel that’s what Reddit is all about. Good let them underestimate this company, I'll buy my shares and ride it upwards ;) Almost time for me to cash in all that kamra I’ve been building up. Half of that valuation is based on reddit gold and platinum. Sounds cheap What’s up with the Apple performa as the image for this story? Out as soon as they try to monetize Hopefully VYGG SPAC in the not too distant future 🤞🏻 Welp, Reddit was fun while it lasted. Even over the few past weeks I feel like there’s more Ads more ads and less organic content. Oh well time to make a dime Time to make a new reddit and call it _____. That’s the price of your data. If Reddit really wanted to hurt the market, they’d all delete the app. HOLD REDDIT🚀 to the moon🌔 Cha Ching! Disney bought LucasFilm for $4 billion. Reddit is fun and all but that valuation seems...high. Ain’t no Baby Yoda here. Hello big money goodbye Reddit we know and love. Does this mean we get paid moderators and Reddit finally solves its biggest issue? How do I get in on this? Let me buy some coins to give OP an award. That sounds too low. That’s less than $BB That's exactly what Digg used to say! See you later, New Digg! So Reddit runs on an old Apple Performa from the early-mid 90s? That explains a lot. We need a new site, not Reddit, not Facebook, and certainly not Tiktok Long Reddit, short Facebook Reddit is definitely going to be replaced a la Digg. I came to reddit from Digg for a lot of the reasons I see now. Digg had no clear vision, terrible UX, and was basically just actively annoying its users. I mean look at the fucking website and the app. Jesus it's awful. I sometimes don't want to use it. It resets my post sorting constantly. My gaming computer can hardly keep up with the terrible website design full of useless design elements, ads, recommendations, stupid social media accoutrements, people following and trying to chat, etc. I actually purposelessly still use old Reddit on desktop. My feed on my phone is increasingly full of bullshit. The app is buggy and it's full of BS. Reddit has totally lost sight of what made it good: simple user interface, quick sharing, information density, and a focus on the COMMUNITIES and CONVERSATION. Now it's basically trying to copy Instagram. It's turning into a fucking influencer platform and people karma whoring. The quality of discourse is super low because everyone is just trying to circlejerk and get top posts so controversial interesting conversations rarely arise. Most of the time the comments are some bullshit meme half the way down. Is this the beginning of the end of Reddit as we know it? Now they can finally build a reddit theme park, with the Mr. Bones ride. Immediately after ipo let's migrate back to digg. If Reddit has an IPO, WSB is gonna pump it up like crazy. VYGG Then you've never used each as an ad platform. Reddit is a black hole of budget. Snapchat works at least a little bit > Snapchat is valued ~16x as much Something is not right in this world Feels like way way harder to monitise Reddit than any other social media. Maybe because of different user base from Instagram/Facebook/Snap Buy more reddit gold and join the “cause” How did they come to the calculation that Reddit is worth $6 billion, rather than, say, $2 million? This guy fucks. the ads on snapchat are so cringe they made me delete the app. the snapchat news stories are catered to preteens and use clickbait thumbnails and has a 5 second ad for ever 5 ""snaps"" to watch just to get to the main point of the story which was never even there at all you’re 2 years late, chine bought reddit a long time ago and everyone left So many bots 🤖 bye They just went through an additional round of funding, I dont expect an IPO any time soon, if even VYGG smaller companies don't have a business model based on donations. There’s a lot of advantages to lowballing your valuation instead of shooting for the moon, especially if your revenue model is still unsure and you want to be able to be patient about it I heard an investor lost quite some money due to some retards here on Reddit. But it’s not about user base. It’s about profit. Where does Reddit make profit on all of us? When we buy awards, which most people don’t do? It just needs to ask You're always welcome to buy $250 million in gold! Ads... Ads everywhere In theory, given the highly specific nature of many subreddits, the data on the users who sub and go to them would be a goldmine to for targeted ads making Reddit essentially a less effective Facebook. Elsewhere in the thread, someone actually said the ad system is dogshit so I have no idea what they're actually doing. Ads and data. Welcome to the modern world With a management as incompetent as this website has, I'm loading up on puts Why the fuck would you do that? We should get wallstreetbets on to this. They'll pump it up and we'll all retire in our mansions. man i used to love digg. reddit is slowly going that way. [deleted] No, that was a long time ago and will be again far in the future [deleted] Where shall we migrate to now? Certain areas of Reddit suck and others do not. That’s the benefit of having subs where people can self categorize by their interests. This won’t change Reddit in any noticeable way, unless the site itself decides to change what it is. This place has steady ran down for years It’s not the beginning of the end. That’s why there’s rules to each sub. But it’s all we have left... Series E means they have done at least 4 other rounds of financing before this. Likely 5 or 6. CEO of a tech startup here. It sounds to me like this money is in preparation for an IPO. Shouldn’t do much other than you will see more pushes for monetization. What’s Reddit? Let's throw a curve ball and go back to slashdot. Only if they ravage the UI like Digg As someone that was here before the Digg migration, I support this. for the lolz Nah bro, WSB hates Reddit Inc. Can you elaborate? I’m trying to pitch Reddit ads at work. Snapchat is loaded up with a million ads Snap is the first thing I'm shorting when the bubble starts to pop We are cheap dudes who just don't buy stuff. Snap is populated by girls who spend and/or are attractive enough to have guys spend for them Reddit is for nerds, nerds don't spend, they don't bite. Unless of course it's about biting and buying useless stocks, but you cannot advertise stocks....at least Reddit doesn't get paid when you advertise stocks, and it's not like degenerates would even bite to advertisements of funds/wealth managers, because they are positive they can do it on their own [removed] Nah... ok I guess 6B seems right I propose ‘Golden hands’ as the name for this movement Recent expansion of feeding all data related to /r/WSB to buyers /s Probably based in revenue, growth potential, some level of stock market supply and demand(tech companies have a much higher stock price/earnings ratio), things like that Wsb can’t wait to short it. Don’t forget the ads How do you figure? It’s not like you have to give the money back if you miss earnings or something. Not at the Series E stage there isn't. Also, given the stake they sold here thats definitely not whats happening. and your data...your data sold everywhere. Subscribe to /r/mowers? Suddenly mower ads appear on your social media feeds. If they go public, I'm dumping my entire city retirement into this. This is the way Can confirm, been here since the Digg migration. Reddit itself hasn't improved in any substantial way in a good 8+ years, but has become worse in many ways (the awfully slow and buggy redesign and all the new dark patterns). The only thing that's better is the larger number of more diverse communities, thanks to higher user numbers. Reddit is sadly in a managerial death spiral - no vision, just being squeezed dry through optimization. Yep... Can confirm Reddit is a shell of its former sell and the patients are running the insane asylum. Yup, been here around 8 years. (I delete my account every year or two. Ask me about Jackdaws to prove it. He got banned in 2014 🤯) Every year the bots and manipulation get worse and worse. Feels like this website has become weaponized into an echo chamber for hire. Maybe I just am becoming more and more aware of something that was already happening... it feels like it is becoming more and more potent though. More plastic... The days of the wild west on the internet/Reddit have been pushed heavily to the fringes if they exist at all. I guess that is Reddit's business model. Grass root movements/echochambers for hire... true that, some changes for the better, others not so much Can confirm. Account age to prove it You also get a year older for this shit. It's still better than reading YouTube comments :) Let me know too. Let’s just go somewhere more underground And the SA forums before they went paid. I still check slashdot like once a month. It’s weird. Let's surprise everyone and go to stileproject. How about YouThink I'm assuming they mean one (Snap) actually gets you results (clicks, or whatever you're seeking) over Reddit's ad platform, where you just spend money and perhaps have no idea where it goes, how many clicks/views you got, etc. >Can you elaborate? I’m trying to pitch Reddit ads at work. Reddit ads are basically weak targeted prospecting ads. Reporting is below average, targeting options are below average, accidental clicks are high, no retargeting and thus low overall performance. What category are you in for work? Reddit has a very low customer value. Most of the people on Reddit are very young, working low wage jobs, and have no assets. There's no point in advertising to people without money or influence to buy your product or service. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/11/reddit-users-are-the-least-valuable-of-any-social-network.html So is Reddit Better place [5,400,000 put options](https://www.reddit.com/r/wallstreetbets/comments/kvjbuk/gamestop_melvin_capital_put_positions/) on that quick. [deleted] Bad bot To be more precise: based on either (1) projected cash flows (which is a bit different from profits) or (2) comparables (how much companies similar to reddit are trading on the stock market, what was the price paid to acquire similar companies in recent M&A deals etc.) Those valuation methods aren't precise since everyone uses different assumptions, but they give a ballpark figure. Reddit could be worth $6 bil, or $3 bil, or $10 bil depending on assumptions, but it sure can't be $2 million or $1 trillion. You mean pump it up on the premise that hedge funds shorted. Almost no one clicks on the ads, relative to powerhouses FB, Google, even Pinterest / Snap / Tktok doing pretty well. Can't say I've clicked on one myself after almost 10 years on here, maybe a couple accidentally. And I do engage w ads im interested it on other platforms to be completely honest Companies want to show they are always growing by making each successive round bigger. It makes investors more confident they'll get a good return. If you set a value that's too high, you risk trying to grow faster than is optimal, in order to justify an even just valuation next time. It tastes time to build a good team, improve market awareness, etc even if you have all the money in the world. It can easily backfire and destroy a company. Can even lead to fraud as managers try to hit impossible targets (e.g. Theranos). Additionally, it's usually better to sacrifice some equity (accept a lower valuation) for higher quality investors and better deal terms. That is another reason why valuations are sometimes lower than you might expect. Down rounds can be tough, especially when investors in the prior round have a significant preference stack. Obviously every deal is different and this isn’t like a hard and vast rule, but the more money you raise, the more equity and control you’re giving away, and the more power your new investors are going to have to exert pressure to get you to make sure they see the return on their investment they want. And the more money they put in, the more money they’re going to expect to come out in some amount of time. Unless they’re genuinely just fantastic investors for you who are perfectly aligned with your exact vision for you company. But generally people want to earn money from their investment, and the more money they put in, the more rigorous they’ll be about ensuring they get enough out. Also it appears to be a fundraising round to current investors so not really dilutive [deleted] Going public will be the downfall Ahh a fellow Digg migrater... nice to see a few of us still around. [deleted] Forgive my ignorance, but what's the Digg migration? The 'tweaks' and 'features' added to the app to drive engagement even if it is low quality are signs that they are out of meaningful ideas to improve the site. Instead they are now implementing features that frustrate and irritate users so long as they increase some kind of number that has no correlation to user satisfaction. I think this is a sign that the visionaries that the company needs are either not present or not being listened to. I don't think reddit will die but it has likely hit its peak. Ah yes the glory days of reddit when apparently banning /r/jailba*t and /r/fatpeople*ate were controversial and a huge violation of free speech. The redesign I won't really disagree with but you aren't forced to use it at all soo not really a big deal. You know back when you joined people were going on about how it was the death of reddit because of all the terrible digg users and people were doomsaying before that as well. Nothing has gotten buggier, niche subreddits(the bread and butter of reddit) are alive and well, it hasn't been overwhelmed by ads or forced nonsense and despite how big it is there are still tons of super smart interesting people on here because there is no real alternative and it's not bad at all anyway. Could things be better? Absolutely. Personally I think the chats and such that I literally never use are a waste but whatever they don't affect me at all. I can sit here on redditisfun golden platinum like I have for the past many years and still experience reddit the same way with the same levels of content. ""Optimization"" I don’t understand why the redesign get so much hate. I’ve been here for a while too and I always hated the original design. The only problem with the new layout is how aggressively they push the mobile app. Outside of that the new layout is very functional and less distracting than the original. Having to install an extension (RES) to make the website remotely usable is not a good user experience. Totally agree, been here since 2010 and the last 2-3 years just have been filled wit let downs. Maybe I‘m just getting old but suddenly so many posts turn out to be ads or try to force feelings onto me...this site‘s golden time is over. Now money talks and the community feeling is gone I miss Digg :-( i remember when a post would never make it to positive karma if there was a typo in the title.. i miss those days , comments read like nigerian prince scams these days What has happened to WSB is the fate of Reddit at large, albeit at a much slower pace No no you have a good point! (Btw also here since jolly rancher, cumbox, 2am chili or soap or whatever it was) The manipulation game is also something I think a lot about and honestly it could not have been worse 10 years ago because back then the website ha a fraction of todays users. Nowadays reddit is so instrumentalized that I‘m walking on eggshells in some subreddits. Same here. That’s honestly debatable. Big streamers, maybe. But if you follow some smaller channels (200k subs or less), you can generally find some pretty good communities. Did you just utter something awful? That's like comparing 4chan to Reddit. I'm sorry but you got me to shudder at the comparison. Why /. when you can [YC](https://news.ycombinator.com/)? This makes no sense to me given the highly specific nature of subreddits. I suppose most users just look at defaults though. Idk with all the upvotes users do you should be able to get highly targeted adds... Acquisition/Engagement in the discount brokerage space. That’s not what the article you linked to claims, it even calls Reddit a “valuable demographic”. The reason Reddit isn’t able to monetize its users as well is not because they are worth less to advertisers, it’s because the platform doesn’t have as much data about its users, makes it harder to target based on other factors like previous ad engagement or shared interests, and impressions and interactions aren’t tracked as effectively so even successful marketing efforts are harder to report back and duplicate. I brought Reddit’s reps into a client meeting a few years ago and our client excused himself from the meeting and texted us that it had been the most amateurish presentation and platform he'd ever seen. And the snap chat users are all rolling in dough? Because I use both so that wouldn’t really work. Would it be fair to say that the real advertising happens within the user base (posts, comments etc) and because of its clandestine nature no value accrues to reddit corp? You don't need to pay reddit to put ads on reddit. Just get an account with some Karma and make up this wild story about helping some kid with downs syndrom reach a coca-cola on the top shelf and boom you have an ad that reaches 50k+ people. [deleted] Not if you use Apollo. It was the “moni-” vs “mone-“ part, and the bot was right. It’s not about the “-ise”. good non-bot Thank you, detrimental12, for voting on demonitize_bot. This bot wants to find the best and worst bots on Reddit. [You can view results here](https://botrank.pastimes.eu/). *** ^(Even if I don't reply to your comment, I'm still listening for votes. Check the webpage to see if your vote registered!) 95% of the ads you see in Reddit you don’t realize are ads To your first point, while that can be true, companies seldom turn down higher valuations because they want to moderate growth expectations. It's a bird in the hand thing - you might get burned in the future if you set valuation too high, but you definitely give up extra value today if you don't do it. Also, a company which has gone through several priced rounds already typically has pressure from existing investors (who may even have board seats) to push valuation higher because that allows them to mark their positions higher. To your second point, strategic partner investors will sometimes get better valuation because they can bring other advantages to the table, but it's not clear to me who would be likely strategic partners for Reddit. Agreed, but whether that is an issue requires a more detailed knowledge of the structure of previous investments. Also, that is more of an issue for earlier stage rounds. Pre-revenue company projections are just made up numbers, so there's a lot more risk that the company gets completely revalued between rounds. A business that has been around for several years and raised 4-5 priced venture rounds already has less uncertainty, although certainly the risk still exists. That’s an argument for minimizing amount of equity you sell, but you’d still want the maximum valuation for whatever amount you decide to sell. The guys who buy 10% of my company at a $1B valuation are going to be just as much dicks as the guys who buy 10% at a $40B valuation. Man, I miss Digg. I would spend hours upon hours reading pointless articles and learning useless information. Now I use Reddit for that. I'm sure the Digg v4 migrators are mostly still here. Where else would we go? Have you tried removing the checkmark from the 'Ask to Open In App' setting? It should be a toggle in the Settings menu. Digg was an aggregator and vote site like Reddit. >August 25, 2010 >Digg v4 is released: My News and Publisher Streams launched `wikipedia/org/wiki/Digg#Digg_v4` With a major update, they basically tried to be more like Twitter. There was a front page, but you were supposed to subscribe to sources. I recall big publishers just auto submitting, and interfering with user submissions. The new site was also very buggy. A bunch of people then moved to Reddit. In 2017, Reddit introduced profile pages and posts for content creators that you can follow, so we’ve kind of come back to it. What would you suggest they do instead? I think this tends to happen as companies get bigger or more successful. You get more people looking to ""optimize X by Y%"" so they can look good to their boss, and less of the people looking to improve the subjective experience that can't be easily measured (and thus harder to argue for promotion). When you have non-founder shareholders, that chain of expectations goes all the way to the top and then to the shareholders who expect X% increase in profits. That was a crazy time that really opened my eyes about the internet even more than I believed possible. This might be surprising, but it is possible to support both the banning of those subs as well as a return to the more intellectual days of the default subs when there were fewer users and the quality of the content was higher. Hmm, we must be having vastly different experiences. I use the old layout without RES and find it perfectly usable. The new layout is fine for browsing memes and pictures, but I find it maddening for reading longer threads with in depth discussion. Some of problems I have with the new layout: - Much, much less information density. Each post takes up half the screen, while on the old layout you can just scan through the headings and click on the ones that look interesting rather than having to scroll endlessly. - Infinite scroll is buggy and addictive. - It never seems to save my scrolled location when navigating back or forward. When I press back, it resets either to the top of the page or some random location. - On mobile, while reading comments and scrolling slowly I'll keep my finger pressed to hold the page and scroll, but it turns out if you don't move your finger it collapses the very comment that you're reading! Very annoying with long comments. - Most of the comments start off collapsed on mobile, and they're frustratingly small to click. - Often when navigating back or scrolling, the page just completely crashes and refreshes, you lose your position, and have to uncollapse all the comments again. It's not surprising that it's optimized for scrolling through many posts, rather than long discussions. You're not going to see more ads by looking through a long discussion. # I always hear about the jolly rancher but not sure if I caught that story Edit: I looked it up. I definitely caught the story and must have tried to purge it from memory. Regret Habit. My user id is in the low 5 digit range, I was there forever. Reddit’s targeting tool for advertisers sucks pretty bad. New advertisers can only pick categories, not specific subreddits. Also, snapchat and others have pretty amazing tools for building ads while Reddit’s are no where near same level. Things may have changed since I last used their ad service last year though. Literally one campaign and done using it. Maybe they (Reddit) just haven't built out the ad user platform? Pure conjecture I have no idea as I've never used it, would be good to hear from someone who has. Absolutely not then. I mean, you can test a small amount for shits and giggles. Especially if you can dig the needles into RH but it won't be as effective as other channels. What are you running for search, social and display? Those will be a lot more effective. Wow thanks for sharing. I hate that you did exactly what you said was possible right here. Refreshing. And for a couple extra dollars you can give your post a bunch of awards for extra visibility. Stop with your shill advertising! (now let me get back to drinking my delicious Nestle Quik) [deleted] Hey there! I hate to break it to you, but it's actually spelled _mon**e**tize_. A good way to remember this is that ""money"" starts with ""mone"" as well. Just wanted to let you know. Have a good day! ---- ^This ^action ^was ^performed ^automatically ^by ^a ^bot ^to ^raise ^awareness ^about ^the ^common ^misspelling ^of ^""monetize"". And Reddit isn't getting paid for them either. Ya. Twitter has a similar problem Edit I’m guessing you’re referring to more subtle ads in the form of clever product placement and such. U right but I’m pretty sure that Reddit doesn’t directly monetize from those Right but these two things are inherently part of one equation. You’re not trying to sell an amount of equity, you’re trying to raise a specific amount of money you’ve calculated you need. That’s the defining element. The amount of equity the investors get is just the answer to the equation “how much are they investing (divided by) what can you convince them is a reasonable total amount of money the company is worth”. So doing a good job at that deal means you convince them of a high enough total valuation to minimize how much equity you lose. But that information, if on popular subs like r/science, is just pseudoscience and clickbait articles. [deleted] Thank you for the explanation <3 Oh god I hated Digg v4 Nice try, Reddit. If you want suggestions you have to pay for them. No idea but what they are doing isn't working. It is making things worse. You’re suggesting design thinking in a profit motive situation. Old school Reddit for me only worked on desktop when you opened a shit ton of tabs, as in one tab per interesting post then I used to go tab by tab closing them when I’m done with the thread. That’s the same workflow I have with the new layout today on desktop, but I get a much a much bigger preview and I can easily keyboard navigate without extensions. Old school Reddit was a no go for table or phone. I relied on third party apps for that (long time user of Narwhal on tablet, and various phone clients) On a table today I actually use the webapp, but instead of opening multiple tabs I use one main tab and back button. It works as well as the app for me on an iPad, I don’t lose my placement. On phone, there is no way around getting an app because the webapp prompts you to use the app all the time. While I like narwhal and Apollo, I actually do like the official app a lot, my only complaints are that I accidentally close a comment chain (which happens on the other clients too) and Reddit still hasn’t figured out auto provisioning on AWS so their servers are always down. Yeah, I’ve gathered the system must be trash given a lot of the comments here by you and others who have used the system. Based on the post, this is the system they’re likely improving. Frankly the best ad I saw was the one for the Accenture AMA. good bot Bad bot That's not always true, but you just made the counterargument against yourself. If your goal is to raise $100M, then you would prefer to do that by selling 1% of the company as opposed to 10% of the company (you would prefer to sell at a higher valuation) all else being equal. There was a day when Digg wasn’t Clickbait articles believe it or not Are you in a Reddit app or viewing Reddit in your mobile web browser? I get to the toggle by selecting the three horizontal line 'hamburger icon' in Chrome mobile when on Reddit.com. I can scroll down to 'Settings' and expand the menu, which includes options like 'Night Mode', 'Request desktop site' and 'Account Settings'. I'm on Android, so possible that is the difference, but think the browser options should be similar. Honestly I just read your other comments on this thread and agree with everything you’re saying as well haha. I think we’re just describing the pros and cons of valuations across a bunch of different circumstances. And I’d agree that generally speaking higher IS better, but there definitely are some specific exceptions to that. I’m trying to say that it feels like you’re assuming the wrong thing here is the variable you have control over. All else isn’t equal. You don’t have that much say over how much equity you give up if the actual thing you need is the $100m. How much equity you give away isn’t really a choice, so much as whatever the best deal you can cut in order to secure the $100M is. If the investor you have interested says that they will only invest $100M in exchange for 20% equity for example, and you say yes, then your valuation becomes $500M. If you say you only are willing to give up 10% equity, then they are either a) only going to invest $50M because both parties at these point have somewhat established that the valuation should be around $500M at that point, or b) say they’re uninterested in only investing $50M for 10% because they would only see half the potential financial returns and have fewer voting shares to ensure their investment (or c) some other option). It’s a very fluid and very psychological situation. But you should always have the goal of losing as little equity as possible, since the moment you no longer have 51% it’s no longer your company. So that’s the balancing act. It’s like what can you and the investors agree upon, how can you hold anything as a lever to move around as you negotiate, and it’s very hard to backtrack on one element as the negotiation develops because previously you were saying that thing was true. [deleted] That sucks. Not sure what to tell you then. Must be an ios thing." Unchecked corporate pricing power is a factor in US inflation,1833,https://www.ft.com/content/151cb429-d024-4d5c-9edf-5b4a2b104a66,"Unlimited pricing power from ever increasing monopoly power combined with supply chain issues and consumers who have shown increasingly price inelastic demand is a potent combo Breaking up big companies did work before. Ask Teddy Roosevelt No shit I think it's a lack of competition. When you have capitalism, competition creates market efficiency. When you have crony capitalism allowing oligopolies, you have this. Corporations did not decide to suddenly 'get greedy', they always have been. But since the competition mechanism is gone, they can afford to charge you more as you have less alternatives. Trade tariffs increasing isn't helping the consumer either. >They found that there was little evidence that the models used to explain the inflation of the 1970s — such as excess aggregate demand, money supply expansion or increased wage costs that prompted a spiral — applied to this recent rise. Money supply expansion a non factor in inflation? Yeah, this is going straight into the trash. Shame I cant get the article published by some university that they are using to write this article thanks to the paywall. /r/badeconomics I’m glad to see someone besides anonymous internet person is starting to look beyond the “evil workers want to be paid more” trope. Year after year record profits. This is the end result of 50 years of unchecked capitalism and companies beholden to stock holders not users. You know what is a huge factor in US inflation? Unchecked unlimited money supply increase a.k.a. The Fed's money printing machine. Whoever wrote this doesn't grasp how the economy works What is the relationship between inflation and ConocoPhillips having their most profitable quarter in company history? Or maybe..just maybe…it’s the massive amount of money printing that has happened? Is this fucking rocket science?? Lol that’s because of supply and demand… meaning consumers can afford to pay those prices. Everything can be framed as this party’s fault, because that’s how the economy works. It’s a circle. Everyone received stimulus during Covid. Everyone has higher pricing power overall. So... price controls, then? I'm sure this will turn out well. So let’s set the time line up. Trade war starts and prices for inputs go up. Trade war continues to escalate. Now with Canada Pandemic hits. Shut down. Supply chain local now also hit. Money supply goes super nova. Rates go to 0 Money supply and rates paper over bad supplies. All of this happened In a hyper converged low compition environment. This then leads to the price hikes we made are forever due to consumers not being able to be elastic, due to lack of options they can and will get away with it. What percentage points you want to assign to each step along this path is for you and the historians to argue. The reality is only x number of sausage plants exist be it Kroger brand or jimmy dean and they did get away with robbery level price hikes. Oh my god. No it’s not. Corporations didn’t suddenly become greedy and destroy the economy with their prices. This article isn’t even attempting to make a valid argument. Who believes this nonsense? Unchecked pricing power is THE factor in US inflation, not a factor. Corporate greed is destroying our economy. These are the kind of idiots that think companies just raise prices forever and don't think there's any economic incentive for companies to not have infinitely high prices and just assume everyone will always pay those prices. No shit? Wait, rich people gouging, poor people?? No way! If they make record profits and still raise prices, that’s not inflation. That’s gouging. It's certainly very obvious that corporations are taking advantage post Covid with product pricing far above inflation is exposed by record profits. Corporate pricing power is best addressed through competition, aka options. Don’t drink or believe the kool-aid, you can do it too Understatement of the fucking year that is It’s not just “a factor,” it is a huge driver. This applies to the broad finance / banking sector as well. Anyone who believes inflation is due to corporate pricing and not idiotic monetary policy (I.e. printing money) is financially illiterate. YOU THINK?!? jeezus christ. Ya don’t say…. Eggs nuts meat veggies, wood, houses, everything is getting jacked up. Can't help but feel that corporations are doing this to punish the people for voting Democrat. Corporations want a republican administration. It's just a feeling.. [deleted] No shit No shit sherlock No shit So confusing how this is a real article! Like seriously? Took them long enough! Companies have admitted this in their reports to investors. To the markets they serve they’ve said “we have to move on pricing due to market realities” and then turned around to investors and said “we had to do some price movement due to market realities and then we did some additional on top of that simply because we could” It’s not a big secret or anything. What I took from that article was the fact that intelligent strong women are having children since they can now work from home! In other news, water is wet Obviously There should be exponentially increasing taxation based upon the appraised value of each corporation to incentivize companies to split and compete to better maximize profits. Ohhh would you look at this… about time y’all caught up Shocking… And in other news, apparently ice is a solid form of water… A HUGELY IGNORED factor. 🙄 Well, if the people don’t elected Republican, this won’t happen. The “Trade Wars” of the Trump Administration gave rise to higher import costs and I remember feeling the impact within a few months of companies passing on the cost. Then covid hit and it spiked a rise in costs because demand was higher than availability. These increases were almost instantly. All while the rise of minimum wage was coming due to hit the year after covid. Businesses then started raising prices to cover employment costs which, paired with covid constraints and employee’s demanding more money, businesses have either failed or managed to be able to stay in business with new prices given the fact that [some] people are now making more money. All of this happened while gas prices hit market lows and extreme highs. Then enter the impending bottoming out of logistics availability giving a rise to more corporate induced inflation because the cost of shipping exploded due to many logistic constrains. Enter the Ukraine invasion by Russia. Food prices soar. Now we face this impending doom of the Federal Interest rate causing the economy to slow down to reduce demand. Everyone has been on a wild financial rollercoaster in the past few years. If you have managed to still remain positive in your bank accounts, kudos to you. For the rest of us, hold on tight, we’re going to make it. Know your worth! Turns out capitalism is a scam. Anyone have a non-paywalled link? Or would someone please copy/paste the article as a comment? The balance is a free and open market… problem is corporation size, oligarchy’s and inter-agency agreements, as well and inelastic supply and barrier to entry lets corporations set their price Now way, you mean the pricing of goods and services impacts the prices of goods and services?! D: You mean the free market or goods and services? M&A https://insight.factset.com/resources/factset-mergers-datafeed Businesses are profitable when competition is minimized. Increase incentives for business diversity and you’ll raise wages and reduce profits I'm no corporate apologist, but inflation is caused by exactly two things: increased monetary supply without increased production or decreased production without decreased monetary supply. The pandemic saw massive reductions in production *coupled* with record increased in deficit-funded stimulus spending. It's a perfect storm. Business raising prices is the symptom, not the disease. i read that long ago that inflation is because corporations can get away with it,, Start with healthcare and hospitals. It's a feature of capitalism I feel like there used to be a set of laws that prevented monopolies from consolidating market power… but private lobbyists over the last 40 or so years eroded the structures that were responsible for maintaining a robust American economy in the first place…. Hmm… maybe I’m imagining things. It’s not like we would set up good anti trust laws only to throw them away. Why would we do that? Makes no sense to me /s Interest rates are below the inflation rate. Therefore you should borrow and spend. Can't beat inflation until rates go higher. The FED knows this. The FED has to burn the forest full of bad actors and yes it will be painful. The question is this: is the FED prepared to let things fail like in 2000 or we still in bailout 2008 culture? In other words, lack of free market. Low corporate competition, along with a spiteful upper class that want to punish the middle class for even thinking about demanding higher wages. Centuries old story. You can read about Carnegie, Vanderbilt, Ford, Morgan, Rockefeller, etc. Trickle Down Economics does not work. Giving money to the upper class and major corporations has never flowed down. This is why you have Apple valued at over $2.45TRILLION, yet $7.25/hr is still the federal minimum wage. You don’t say… Ya In 1873, the economic crisis broke out. Stocks on the Vienna Bond Exchange plummeted on May 9. On September 13, that is, ""Black Friday"", the New York Stock Exchange in the United States also experienced a sharp drop in stocks. When will the next economic crisis break out? Soon as we cannot believe that! All been planned for years. Much too predictable. Why did they exclude financial institutions from their profit margin graph? No shit. Companies have used the pandemic, rising energy costs, supply chain crisis as an excuse to increase costs. That is why margins have grown thicker despite rising costs. Edit: Oops should have read the article first, that's the exact point they make. Really? You blame them? When the gooberment throws money like candy? It’s just there for the taking! It’s free money that causes inflation and all kinds of expensive shit specially that which is federally subsidized. > consumers who have shown increasingly price inelastic demand Yeah this is a big part of it. If the same quantity of people will buy a product at a higher price, a rational (in an economic sense) corporation would raise the price until the marginal profit from an additional unit at a certain cost goes to 0. See: graphics card prices. People paid scalper prices, and Nvidia realized they could just raise the MSRP and people would still buy it too. There's a lot more to unpack there with supply chain shortages, crypto/AI uses for cards, etc. But at a base level, gamers are willing to pay more, so they charge more. I've tried giving up food and energy with disappointing results. That's a good point, I haven't heard anyone bring up the impact that unchecked monopolizing nationwide would bring unlimited pricing power for corporations. [And the fact that there's still ~$4T in American checking accounts compared to before Covid.](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/BOGZ1FL193020005Q) The price if goods/services simply gets bid up and people can afford it (unless the government didn't give you that money). Advertising sector of economy via brainwashing systems (social media) dedicated to producing good consumers is working “Unlimited pricing power” Is a term a only politician would use before they start trying to steal more rights and freedoms. Which monopolies do you speak of Sorry but that’s not inflation. Inflation = sum of money in any given market. More money in the market leads to higher pricing. Anything else ≠ inflation. Good day. “Supply chain issues” means nothing, major companies have purchasing departments and COVID as a pandemic ended, so idk why people use this as a point of contention, there’s literal jobs that are just to get the cheapest things as quickly as possible, like I don’t think the dude’s collecting eggs or driving them are getting paid more or anything. Likewise, consumers “inelastic demand” means nothing. I have to fuckin eat, and when food staples like bread and eggs are more expensive, I’m gonna have to spend the money. Its also not Soviet Russia, people aren’t not going to spend money on entertainment when it’s like one of the major industries in the U.S., and literally necessary to not want to die in this country. We as workers don’t get to set the price, I don’t get to haggle at the grocery store, for video games, for gas, the employer and capitalist class do. Don’t blame workers for shit out of their control, this is SOLELY people deciding they just want more money, and they can get it, that’s all. There’s a reason that inflation isn’t some flat percentage across for everything, it’s individually set. You mean a lack of competition = lack of a healthy market so monopolists can set prices with no other choice from consumers? Where are the free market complainers now? Oh they’re the monopolists. Shocked pikachu face.![gif](emote|free_emotes_pack|surprise) Man, sure would be nice if we had some sort of organization that could somehow prevent this from happening… Nah. Both parties will not have the spine to do it. No shit No lollygagging No feeding the alligators hallucinagens. I think it has always been interesting to me when companies buy other companies and then that one company grabs more market share. In the industry i work in, the reason for this is to obtain that companies sources in materials and contracts to vendors, the market share aspect is also part of the deal of course. But what’s interesting is that the owner’s of companies simply sell-out. They want to retire or just get out of the game. So it isnt always like this corporate evil menace that wants to suck competition, its more like the nature of business. We need regulations to discourage monopolies - it’s natural for companies to keep merging to benefit from the advantage of economies of scale. With no disincentives it will just get worse. Capitalism’s “efficiency” is also a race to the bottom, *unless* you have enforced consumer protection. I’ve never liked the phrase “market efficiency”, as it can be misleading. To the common man, it might mean doing things better, more streamlined, etc. But to a business, it almost certainly means to do a thing, or provide a service more cheaply (i.e the efficiency to profit). Competition helps, but without strong regulation, it means nothing. Exactly. Anti-trust/ competition tribunals exist in different countries but are often under-resourced. The investigations are long and expensive, and prosecutions lengthy and fraught with peril. There needs to be a concerted effort to give these bodies more “teeth” to do their job. The laws are there, and in US/Canada they are broad enough to handle these issues, should there be political and institutional will. *applied to this recent rise*. I think it’s fair to say if you compare injections from past around the world, they worked in times of severe market turmoil to keep the motor running. In fact, it worked so well that corporations wanted to gobble it up and not spit it back out. Thereby moving all of the newly created money into the hands of a small amount of people It’s all working as intended you see 🙃 How do you explain the fact that the money supply was expanded for decades at a fast pace and you didn't see much price inflation? This is an equally lazy and terrible take. So 50 years ago companies had lower profit margins? Thats not what the chart shows. You're right that unlimited money supply is the issue, but it's not the fed printing money that's the problem. It's banks. No one buys their car or house or even their groceries anymore. They get loans for it. Why has the cost of college gone up? Because student loans mean they can charge as much as they want and everyone can still afford it. This is pretty well established. But the same has happened with houses and cars. Can't afford groceries this week? Just put it on your credit card and pay it off later. The US's total personal debt is 1.5x our GDP. That's $16.9 *Trillion*. The median household is $96,371 in debt, and there are 370,000 cases of personal bankruptcy filed each year. Our economy is built on perpetual growth. And when household income stopped growing, we just started borrowing money to make up the difference. But then we couldn't pay it back which leads us to the situation we're in now. The fed isn't printing money fast enough to have this effect, but credit cards are. I’m curious, where did all of this money they print end up? And when did they print it? That’s not sarcasm, I’m not a regular follower of economics. Please stop parroting the same-old-same-old to claim internet validation from dime-a-dozen econ ideologues and instead start looking at the figures the professionals are presenting. EDIT: There's good reason to think that this is exactly what's going on — data sources [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/finance/comments/11wca4o/unchecked_corporate_pricing_power_is_a_factor_in/jcxqm8r/) This is the only answer. You're right that unlimited money supply is the issue, but it's not the fed printing money that's the problem. It's banks. No one buys their car or house or even their groceries anymore. They get loans for it. Why has the cost of college gone up? Because student loans mean they can charge as much as they want and everyone can still afford it. This is pretty well established. But the same has happened with houses and cars. Can't afford groceries this week? Just put it on your credit card and pay it off later. The US's total personal debt is 1.5x our GDP. That's $16.9 *Trillion*. The median household is $96,371 in debt, and there are 370,000 cases of personal bankruptcy filed each year. Our economy is built on perpetual growth. And when household income stopped growing, we just started borrowing money to make up the difference. But then we couldn't pay it back which leads us to the situation we're in now. The fed isn't printing money fast enough to have this effect, but credit cards are. You're right that unlimited money supply is the issue, but it's not the fed printing money that's the problem. It's banks. No one buys their car or house or even their groceries anymore. They get loans for it. Why has the cost of college gone up? Because student loans mean they can charge as much as they want and everyone can still afford it. This is pretty well established. But the same has happened with houses and cars. Can't afford groceries this week? Just put it on your credit card and pay it off later. The US's total personal debt is 1.5x our GDP. That's $16.9 *Trillion*. The median household is $96,371 in debt, and there are 370,000 cases of personal bankruptcy filed each year. Our economy is built on perpetual growth. And when household income stopped growing, we just started borrowing money to make up the difference. But then we couldn't pay it back which leads us to the situation we're in now. The fed isn't printing money fast enough to have this effect, but credit cards are. Break up large companies, enforce consumer protection, regulate markets. There’s a huge middle-ground between unbridled capitalism, and full-blown socialism. A middle-ground where 99% of the population would be better off. Our markets would still be free, and we would still be a capitalist system — just regulated, so that more of the population get to participate in, and reap the benefits of capitalism, working, and providing value to society. Without these things (*enforced* regulations), you still get price-controls, it’s just the rich who control them. But somehow, people are ok with that version of price controls because it’s a *different* group of rich and powerful people enforcing things upon society, and isn’t a democratically elected body? (I’m not arguing for price controls, just making a point). There are so many other things we can add to the list. Regulatory capture, an overall aging of the workforce, 2008 collapse of the housing market and the supply issues that created, and on and on. > Who believes this nonsense? redditors, apparently Populists always push conspiracy theories because the average man on the street wants to believe that the world's problems are the result of evil people doing evil things, not incompetent but well intentioned people doing stupid things. Tons of people. I’d say it’s at least the majority of liberal leaning folks, so at least 25% of the country, maybe more But no one is arguing with money supply. Really. If you could read you’d see that. It says gouging *is a factor.* And it is. Companies almost always gouge on the back of inflation. That’s not at all what is happening. That’s not even what the article claims. [deleted] The phenomenon where market conditions allow corporations to make more money by raising prices is known as ""inflation"". Complaining about this is like blaming avalanches on gravity. Found the illiterate Inflation can be blamed on a few things. It is always complicated, but this time around, it is even more-so, thanks to how globalized the economy is, shifting geo-politics, and a pandemic. However, I would argue that the struggle from inflation stems more from the poor - to non existing - *fiscal* policy, which resulted in the consolidation of wealth created by monetary policy (QE), rather than the monetary policy. Just look at M1/M2, which was originally what the Fed was trying to stimulate with QE after 08 (it wasn’t rising as quickly as they thought it should). But you can’t do that if you don’t have a governing body willing to regulate, and ensure that money actually circulates somewhat equally, which creates a healthy economy. But the Fed is limited in its options. The problem is, you won’t get investment in a market dominated by a few megalith companies. We’re in the part of the economic cycle where businesses don’t really want to take risk. Which means they don’t want to invest in new things. They don’t want to solidify, improve, or in some cases, even *maintain* their logistics. They don’t want to expand, beyond buying other companies. You can see this playing out heavily in venture capital, the consolidation of businesses, and the rise of stock buy-backs. So the Fed’s actions didn’t really have the results they thought it would. (Whether they knew this or not, that’s a whole different argument). Again, this is the result of decades of poor regulation. (It’s also what happens when you demand infinite growth. Eventually, you have to consume yourself, and others to produce value). Also, if you look at where the majority of that printed money went, it sure as fuck wasn’t the working class. The vast majority of it pooled at the top. If inflation is caused by too much money, and the answer is to pull that money back in. Why are we trying to take it from everyone except those who have it? Agree or disagree with QE, it doesn’t matter in this context. However, I highly doubt, in hindsight, that we discover QE caused inflation on the pull-side. So much as consumer habits changing, and a disproportionate amount of money pooling at the top did. (While the top 1% reaped the most benefit from QE, it did “trickle-down” as far as the top ~10%). The sad fact is, we’re just at the end of an economic cycle, where we’ve allowed too few people to capture too much wealth. This is how that plays out, if economic history has anything to say. It’s not fair to say that *all* of inflation is caused by corporations “price gouging”. But it is most certainly a fact that corporations use inflation as an excuse to bump their prices up, to test consumers reactions. But that’s only a small part of our problem, and ignores the root the cause of the majority of our economic problems. So they weren't greedy until 2022? The “record profits” is an illusion that anyone with basic finance knowledge will understand. Profit is simply sale price - cost. The thing is the sale price reflects the current market price but the cost could reflect something that was inventoried a year ago. This is how accounting works. Therefore you cannot analyze profit accurately during periods of high inflation because that inflation is always going to look like a profit when it’s not. Exactly. They raise prices and if people keep buying they keep raising. Why wouldn’t they? If the market can bear it then keep raising them. It’s good business to find the optimal price to maximize profit. Time seems to have shown it was mining Ethereum. Right around when ETH was switching off POW the prices started dropping Trickle-down inflation That's a great example, its an Oligopoly with two competitors and a massive barrier to entry that will functionally keep competition away. Its also a luxury good so its harder to argue regulations, arguably the competition is indirect from other forms of media. My friends are impressed by how much weight I've lost since giving up food, but my mother is concerned. Been trying to ween my truck off gas since 2001.... Medication.. Cant tell if this is sarcasm or not, but thats not a particularly novel idea Woah! How do we go from ~1T to 4T+ in such short span of time? Is this primarily from PPP loans and stimulus checks? Its really insane, did the economy really need that amount of stimulus $ it seems it just created the exact effect overprinting of currency, massive hikes in cost of goods. It would be interesting what % of that $4T belongs to the average middle class individuals? Woah its wild how we go from ~1T to 4T+ in such short period of time! It would be interesting to know what % of that $4T belongs to the middle class? Care to also comment about the rights and freedoms of an individual to have a competitive market to participate in? Because from where I’m sitting, there’s not a lot of choice in the marketplace when I pass the same business 5 times each on my way into the office to work for a multibillion global supplier conglomerate. Liberties and freedoms are always subject to “time and manner” under law… freedoms and liberties are rights endowed, for sure, but they aren’t at all times places and manners completely uncurbed. If we’re going to allow oligopolies, we must also consider restrictions to protect people from the harms it causes. I believe, for most things, a free market can and does work. But the problem is when it’s applied as it is now, with little competition and across all humans’ basic needs. That’s our situation right now and if I’m going to have to choose who’s freedoms to restrict, I know who I would choose. I think our politicians are failing us, not when they “steal more rights and freedoms”, but when they are always choosing the rights and freedoms of money over the rights and freedoms of the people. [removed] We should hold a meeting of interested parties on Jekyll Island to come up with a plan to deal with these scallywags. Monopoly power is also present in oligopolic competitive models. Any firm will have some (ideally negligible) pricing power. There are few true global monopolies, however, disproportionate mkt share empirically gives disproportionate pricing power, and you can have monopolies by region,product, etc. ie Google adwords is a monopolistic product. Google cloud computing is closer to an oligopolic model. Google chromebooks are much closer being in direct competition with other laptop manufacture/distro businesses. Is google a monopoly? Depends on how you look at it, but many could argue yes Take the luxury goods market for example. LVHM owns half the main brands out there. Then in consumer goods you have P&G and Kraft That’s objectively, patently, and demonstrably false. Inflation is just the ratio of px delta to time delta and is affected by a wide factor of things. What you’re referring to is the money supply, which is distinct from inflation I dont think you understand what elasticity of demand is. Also we still have supply chain issues due to international conflict, not because of workers(?). Not sure exactly what point youre trying to convey IDK about that. I think it's more nuanced than that. Obviously, the pandemic caused supply chain issues. Keep in mind China, one of the world's major suppliers, only got out of lockdown towards the end of last year. Quantitative easing has caused inflation to skyrocket to the point Bloomberg is reporting that a $100k salary in NYC is equivalent to $35k elsewhere. Companies can't hire workers because it doesn't even make sense for them to work in big cities anymore because of the cost. Immigration (legal immigration at least) has been backlogged due to the pandemic which affects the work force. The war in Ukraine has caused energy costs to skyrocket around the world. This all adds up to a lot of inflation that isn't going away. No shirt It doesn’t help that creating a company is harder as time goes along so there are less and less functional small business that might challenge the bigs at some point. Of course it’s the nature of the business, that’s how capitalism works. A company’s aim is to maximize profit, so you need to be the biggest and baddest of them all. You can either achieve that through the free market, providing a better service at a better price than everyone else, or you could just take your competition out of the game. Antitrust rules exist, they're just not effectively enforced anymore. More consolidation and more opportunities for the big players to get bigger. Competition is dead, in the name of stability. The amount of money printed is important. [Take a look at the amount printed from 2005 - 2019 and then 2020.](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CURRCIR) And there absolutely was inflation, it was just closer to the accepted levels. [deleted] 🤦‍♂️ does this really need to be explained to you… Production shifted to China and kept costs very low for a long time. Simple answer. Literally the fed has been TRUMPETING the labor market as the reason for rate increases, while ignoring Jaime Diamond comments about “excess savings” amongst Americans and CEOs that have bragged about “price flexibility” for the last 2-ish years, your comment is an intellectual insult, and you call my comment lazy? > no one buys their car or house or even their groceries anymore. They get loans for it. Yeah. Because the costs of those things have gone up astronomically and wages aren’t keeping up. Sure, we have some folks spending beyond their means, but even at levels acceptable for their income, vehicles/homes just aren’t feasible to go without until you can buy it in cash. Automakers pushed to seriously cripple public transport so now you must buy a car, cars have advanced and continue to get newer and newer features, with auto makers bringing in record profits so now just a standard entry level car is ~$20k. If I were to put away $1000 a month toward a home, it would take me over 30 years to buy a home in cash, by that time home prices will have gone up 2,3,4 or 5x what they are now. And it’s not like rent is going down substantially as investors buying housing at these levels are pushing market rents up slowly but surely. Americans are **really fucking good** at buying garbage we don’t need. New toys, new phones, game franchises every year, etc etc. But the notion that corporate greed isn’t the largest factor in long term inflation is bizarre and misleading. We’ve nurtured and pushed a hyper-consumerism culture/mindset here. Companies expect and demand annual growth into perpetuity and achieve this through higher prices, reduced product quality through cutting material costs, planned obsolescence, and reduction of competitors to grow through M&A. It’s just not sustainable. We’re constantly bombarded with ads for the newest and greatest thing, last year’s thing isn’t lasting as long as it used to, and we are constantly being pushed to buy/spend. None of this even touches on the piss poor education/financial literacy in this country either. Someone else mentioned it pretty summarily but to reiterate--there was no physical money being printed (on top of what is already being printed, that is). This was on the order of trillions of dollars. The amount of cotton to produce that paper would be gigantic. What the fed did was ""expand the balance sheet"". In US accounting, you have assets - liabilities = equity. That is a balance sheet--a record of all assets, liabilities, and equity. By ""printing money"", you are adding on top of the liabilities section. The fed was essentially buying tons of bonds so this makes sense--in some cases, they were buying their own bonds with their own money they printed. Yes this sounds silly but it's not--source: trust me bro. To balance the balance sheet, you also have to increase the equity side. This most likely correlates to some account related to total dollars in circulation In practice, what this looks like is a group of people probably just choose a bunch of different bonds to buy, buys them, and then they record it onto their balance sheet. And if you took a fixed income class, buying bonds is a form of financing for the issuing entity. Buying corporate bonds means you are injecting money into that corporate entity (at issuance, not secondary markets). Buying govt bonds means you are injecting money into the issuing govt. This money is coming from nowhere so it figuratively is being 'printed', just not literally. Edit: and just as a fun aside, there is also the concept of 'quantitative tightening' which is reversing this process. By doing that, they sell the liabilities and decrease the equity--that account related to money in circulation. The money in circulation just ""disappears"", similar to how it just magically appeared in the first place. With QE, the Fed prints money and buys assets (namely bonds). They buy those bonds from someone (usually banks) who then have money to inject into the economy in the form of loans. The same professionals that stated: - ""There is no inflation"" - ""It's transitory!"" - ""It's COVID supply chain issues!"" - ""It's the Ukranian war!"" - And my new personal favourite one: ""it's greedy corporations!!!"" (Yeah, like every company in 2021 decided to start charging 20% more for everything just for the lols) No thank you. I just prefer to look at the Fed's data on money supply since 2020: https://i.imgur.com/GSFF5oY.jpg You probably don't realize it but the one parroting the Fed's lies is actually you 😉 Standard oil is starting to look like Blackrock IMO actually enforcing anti-trust is one of the best things we could do for society. It's a complete joke that in the 90's MS actually got punished for leveraging their platform to push their own browser, and now they're doing it again a few decades later and everyone just takes it for granted that it's ok. The age of the work force was a miss on my part good point. The pandemic and sky high stocks sent them to the beach early. The 08 collapse yeah not tracking that one as it is to distant to play into the current model of inflation. This plays into why a generation has no upward movement but that’s not 100% inflation. Unfortunately I can’t read so I don’t know what you said. I’ll just assume it is a comment in support of my beliefs. Absolutely they’re not rich, the rich people tell them what to do 🤷🏻‍♂️ That is what happens with large corporations. People do their jobs well to keep getting paid but it’s rare that a single job is immoral. It’s the net impact of thousands of decisions across hundreds of employees that creates actions that like this that are sociopathic or immoral. This is an extremely well thought out response to my one-line critique of the original post. I’m struggling to decide whether it’s from ChatGPT or not. Or the margin vs volume impact on profitability. Which is why lots of oil companies can have “record profits” from selling more gasoline even though they have a flat margin on the gas being sold due to higher input costs, they’re just selling more of it so are pushing more gross profit down the P&L and offsetting fixed costs. The entire argument relies on the reader having an emotional reaction to the headline and ignoring the details. > Its also a luxury good so its harder to argue regulations, arguably the competition is indirect from other forms of media. Yeah, I mean I'm not crazy anti-regulation person, but I would really feel weird if the government started setting the maximum price of a Playstation or X-Box too. It's not a basic necessity, and this is coming from somebody who thinks internet access is more or less something that should be a utility. It must be much easier to pull up on your bootstraps now, though. [deleted] Dang woke truck's needing their crude oil safety blankets. In all seriousness, could try an EV conversion, if it is a pickup truck. It's sarcasm. Where have you heard that discussed in mainstream discourse? Something else is going on here. It starts well before the pandemic. Was there a change in reporting or something? I don't trust the parent's assertion. This is too massive a change to not be for some specific reason. [Edit] My guess is that this is related to the M1 methodology change, but I don't know enough about this to say for sure: https://economics.stackexchange.com/questions/45886/has-there-really-been-a-170-increase-in-m1-money-supply-in-the-us-in-february-2 You don’t have to choose who’s freedoms you have to restrict. Don’t let the politicians control anyone. Remove the restricts that are hindering competition. Oh no! A grammar mistake!!! This proves all your ideologies! Any disagreement is from Putin himself!!! What a clown. There are no monopolies represented in the supermarket or similar stores. The vast (and I mean VAST) majority of people on reddit bitching about monopolies are nearly completely ignorant of how markets, monopolies, scarcity, labor, supply chains, etc work. In short, they're fucking idiots who want to yell about how corporations and/or rich people are somehow the cause of their problems Look at this thread as an example. Top comment is about monopolies,. I ask for examples and none are given. So then they become oligops. But then that can't be fleshed out very well for us, so now I am told oligops represents the intended monopolistic ideal referenced here which A) isn't fucking accurate and B) has nothing to do with the actual conversation. Reddit is just so damn ignorant this way I don't know what LVHM is. The other 2 are not monopolies. USPS, for example, is a monopoly as it is a for profit organization where no other competition is legally allowed. Kraft has competition. So does P&G. And if you want to use money growth to calculate inflation, you need to subtract real output growth. It’s a nominal anchor countries can use for inflation. It’s not as simple as print money = inflation, it’s such an oversimplification. I’m conveying that this messaging of both of these is wrong, this is singularly employers capitalizing on a pandemic for excuses of rising prices. I’ll be fucked if any significant portion of the US market is attributed to Russian and Ukrainian imports, and the ripple of European markets aren’t nearly enough or really overly considerable to describe the discrepancy of prices of things in the US. Likewise, how long can we have supply chain issues? 3 years now? It’s ridiculous, did the roads start crumbling? Did the entire COVID pandemic hit only logistics? It’s fuckin ridiculous to look at this shit as nothing but people realizing they can raise prices because everyone was at one point, and we can’t stop the money train. It’s greed and an American system unwilling to do anything about it that’s not raise interest. That is exactly what I’m saying. I’m tired of acting like the government or employers are helpless in this, when they are the ones responsible. You want the answer? Price control, ration books by need, and affordable housing, but why would they ever do that rather than just make more money? Actually? I mean, until they really test the “inelasticity” of the American consumer, or rather, debt defaults, why do they have any interest in doing anything? Companies will keep raising prices unnecessarily until someone steps in or we have a depression unlike anything we’ve seen, which clearly, nether really seems to bother the government that much. No shoes You would be surprised how social media will put an anti-trust article way down because of course it is boring. Mamazon is the obvious one the bazaar and AWS need to be divested. There is a history of this going back to Ma Bell. How do monopolies and privatization of the public good help the average American? They don't. Precisely. As there’s less and less free market, you’ll see them unabashedly increase profit shares at the expense of literally anyone. Especially entire nations. Why not? Isn't constrained supply also a crucial element? If supply keeps pace with demand, won't you have stable pricing, even when money supply increases? Great explanation Idk. From what I’ve seen on Reddit, we need more solid questions and thoughtful explanations. Especially with monetary policy in the age of corporate oligarchy What should that have to do with inflation if it's simply a result of increased money supply? Most of the labor market blame seems to be coming from news coverage, not the Fed directly. Fed blames inflation on profits and wage increases about equally (also war and lingering supply chain issues are a factor). Problem is the Fed can only affect those things very indirectly, and everything they do will have a larger impact on jobs or wages than profits. Only thing I see that would impact profits more than wages would be increased supply competition. I don’t think there’s much the Fed could do about supply side unfortunately. If anyone has creative ideas I would love to hear them. I don't see the fed ""TRUMPETING"" the labor market as the cause of inflation. The Fed understands, as everyone who understands the monetary system understands, that long-term inflation is a feedback loop that relates the prices of products, labour, and the availability of debt. With negative real interest rates and climbing product prices, the only thing preventing the inflationary spiral from kicking in is wage stickiness. Once inflation fully hits the labor market then the feedback loop will be established and interest rates will have to go *much* higher to bring it back under control, because once the wage/price spiral starts the current interest rates are far too low to control it. Do you want 10%+ interest rates? Ignore the dummy in the room. Thanks for the thorough write up. So how does that turn into the inflation of the price of goods if it’s the banks who end up with cash from the bond purchases? I’m more concerned about the frightening idea that the world in which we live in seem’s to find the cure for soaring inflation is to crash the economy (or slowly crash it as they say). I don’t know about you but, the general population doesn’t wake up and say we’re going to spend more money at Walmart today because we want to. If we specifically look at the cost of food, its not a result of money printing but the conclusion that our food sources are global. So, regardless of wether you and i might agree or disagree, we are both suffering the same fate. The fate that our dollar is always going to keep buying less than it did year after year. A nickel could buy you a meal in the 1950s. Inflation is by design, its just the velocity of it that is uncontrolled right now. Wether corporations are greedy or our banks get bailed out, or if the tax brackets change, or if the treasury prints more money, inflation will always be a part of our lives. EDIT: I can't believe I post a ton of links to research and I get downvoted. Prioritizing groupthink over actual findings in finance is a dire state of affairs. EDIT 2: I would appreciate responses that are more substantive than low-effort denial. ______________________________ > And my new personal favourite one: ""it's greedy corporations!!!"" (Yeah, like every company in 2021 decided to start charging 20% more for everything just for the lols) [We know that firms raised prices in 2021 to make up for _reduced_ consumer demand, even after money-printing, because they told us.](https://www.businessinsider.in/retail/news/americas-biggest-companies-cant-stop-bragging-to-investors-about-how-theyre-charging-you-more/articleshow/87493471.cms) Firms could raise prices because consumers and legislators expected an inflationary period. We [know that this is true](https://www.businessinsider.com/corporations-using-inflation-as-excuse-to-reap-fatter-profits-reich-2021-11) because firms [publicly report it.](https://www.wsj.com/articles/inflation-yellen-biden-price-increase-cost-shipping-supply-chain-labor-shortage-pandemic-11636934826) [Here is a link to a research paper published this year about how (quoted from the abstract) ""the US COVID-19 inflation is predominantly a sellers’ inflation that derives from microeconomic origins, namely the ability of firms with market power to hike prices.""](https://scholarworks.umass.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1348&context=econ_workingpaper) The paper has lots of data for you to chew on. So, please. I think what may have happened here is that you learned _MV_ = _PT_, and you heard the Milton Friedman quote about inflation always being a monetary issue, and perhaps you thought ""This simple aphorism must be what I need to believe and repeat so that I sound knowledgeable about the economy"", and then every other person like you, all of you eager to impress each other, thought exactly the same thing, and groupthink took over, and now nobody can take a cold-eyed critical look at what's actually happening in the economy because any such attempt to do so inevitably gets met with a deluge of ""it's the money supply!"" as you and everyone else in the groupthink-gang you're eager to belong to tries to uphold the paradigm they've settled on that affords them a smidgen of legitimacy in each other's eyes. _But_ if you actually read the research coming out today (and read up on [some economic history](https://doi.org/10.3905/jpm.1979.408704) in which Friedman gets questioned on his statements and can't provide complete answers), and furthermore if you understand that the classical idea that ""more money chasing the same amount of goods"" — which requires labor to actually have that increased money, so they can spend it to chase the goods, which itself requires increased labor costs (i.e. increased wages) — flies right in the face of [research by the actual Federal Reserve (whose data you trust) that shows that increased labor costs (i.e. increased wages) _do not result in price inflation_,](https://www.federalreserve.gov/econresdata/feds/2015/files/2015042pap.pdf) then you will understand that the economy is not so reducible to ""but but but money supply."" (inb4 ""but money supply"") Ah yes. A no descriptive graph on Imgur. A source on par with the greatest minds at Oxford. The 2008 crash created a supply shock that really started to take hold 5 or so years later. As a RE investor, I've seen it first hand. Many contractors left the workforce in 2009 and didn't return. Local governments also did nothing to encourage development so we had several years of stagnation in the industry. Now there's a massive housing deficit and only within the past couple of years have I seen earnest efforts to do something about it. Lucky because of this i got my babies genetically engineered to have chlorophyll and get energy from the sun. Literally anytime inflation is discussed by politicians. One side blames over regulation and government spending, the other side blames greedy corporations That’s the problem with you anarcho-capitalists… been following the sub for a while and they have this (albeit good) idea of rights for all, but that doesn’t stop at a corporations door. They want unlimited rights for corporations with little to absolutely no government oversight or control. Basically the government has no say over our lives (I almost completely agree) but that includes mega corps. Here’s my issue: why do y’all care about what a mega corporation has the rights to do? They are not a person, therefor they do not get the same rights as a person. They SHOULD be limited at some point to promote competition among smaller businesses. Many are larger than some governments and some (like Walmart or Amazon) have enough reach and literal manpower that they could actually raise their own army and overtake smaller governments or even some states. Tell me why we shouldn’t limit their reach, or better yet , nerf the abilities they have to control entire markets. The fact is, they won’t raise an army probably ever but that’s only because they have it in their power to literally steer the market to where they want. Walmart takes a better approach by keeping most prices below the market average, which definitely encourages competition, but still you have companies like Walgreens charging 7 fucking dollars for a gallon of milk, in a brand rated lower than the walmart milk. It’s insane. Companies are not people and a handful of mega corporations controlling the market to their advantage should be illegal and completely blocked. I have a right to open a business and compete in a fair market. We do not live in a society with a fair market in the United States. And I feel as if I’m being somewhat reasonable because I don’t believe the government should enact special redirections or control UNTIL a certain point where it would only hurt competition. So the small imaginary business that you plan to open won’t be affected by this, in fact it will only grow because the overpowered competition has been nerfed. Explain why this is a bad thing. That’s the bigger fix, yes. But it can’t happen overnight. Meanwhile, we got a lot of miserable people over here, while we have record profits over on the other side of things… something’s gotta give Exempli gratia Yes, it's an oligopoly, which is so much better 🤷 Bro do you know how global modern supply chains are? Ukraine produces vital inputs for the majority of the worlds fertilizer among other things. If one country shudders, the whole world feels it. No service No problem No dice No healthcare Yes. Supply and demand is at play her as well. However, what you’re seeing is it being used as an excuse to extend real demand issues with fake ones to exploit profits. Prices coming out of China have risen pretty sharply on the wholesale side (along with shipping costs which are super high right now). Combined with domestic inflation in labor, real estate, energy prices.... This can be hard to see without scaling back to the macro. Inflation is two — three fold 1. Monetary policy to increase monetary supply to people who couldn’t work 2. These same people then started to purchase things during the pandemic, putting strain on an already strained system 3. Since then the system has self-corrected across most industries. 4. But those profits from price gouging on demand were so yummy that corporations (in the US) funneled it to themselves in two ways. First, through stealing from PPP, next through sustaining gauged price hikes well beyond normal. 5. Leading to inflation. (One part of inflation— demand) second part is corporate greedflation) > I don’t see the fed “TRUMPETING” the labor market as the cause of inflation. You might want to reread my quote. You have definitely misquoted me. Banks give loans, those loans get spent by individuals or corporations. None of this disproves his claim that increased money supply causes inflation. You're describing the end result, the byproducts in the aftermath of an economy out of balance. Do you actually believe corporations only realized they can increase prices in the last couple of years? Consumer demand didn't slow for no reason, the reason was inflation and money printing was a BIG part of it. Let me ask you one simple question, if inflation is caused by companies and not by money supply. Why doesn't the government stop collecting taxes altogether and just cover all it's expenses by printing money? I happen to know what's the real cause of inflation, because I grew up in a 3rd world country with insane inflation. I lived through it, and I know exactly the lies politicians and central bankers will tell you to distract you from the truth. It is always money supply. It was money supply in the Republic of Weimar, it was money supply in Zimbabwe, it was money supply in Venezuela and Argentina. And now it is money supply in the U.S. If there wasn't an excess of money in the economy, nobody would be able to afford those prices increases in the first place or they would have to re-allocate budgets to cover for those increases, making some other goods drop in price (due to lower demand) to cover for that relocation of money. And the increases would be temporary. What we are seeing, is a completely different monster, increases are permanent and across the whole economy. Saying that inflation is caused by corporations price increases is like saying that inflation is caused by workers asking for raises. Is the exact opposite. Companies and workers are reacting to the excess of money in the economy, by raising their prices *not* the other way around. I know that you feel really woke by blaming companies. But you are actually barking at the wrong tree. These are the same companies that for 3 decades didn't raise the prices like crazy as they are doing now. You absolute donkey. Did you read the god damned article you posted? The gall to suggest people disagreeing with you are idiots when its crystal clear you cant be bothered to read what you post. Your research is wrong. It's goal is clicks, not accuracy. You can stop posting it. It is official data from the federal reserve. But since you are allergic to images, here goes the link: https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/money-supply-m1 It's expensive, but it pays for itself in just a few generations. Chlorophyll more like borafill Greed and monopolizing are seperate issues here: monopolies are explicitly defined, and have historical precedent for regulation. Greed is a concept, amorphous and not regulatable as such. I don’t know what an anarcho-capitalist is. You’re asking the government to draw arbitrary lines which will decide who can win in business. The government is certain to fail in that task and then use those powers to hurt more people. Thats what got us in this mess. The government can’t solve anyone’s misery. They have to manage their own lives. We just have to try to prevent any further harm caused by over reaching legislation started with good intentions but leading to bad results. Quick solution are often that way. You're just moving the goalposts, now. There are thousands of different companies selling items in the average supermarket in the US. There are 27 million firms in the US as a whole. I think you, and much of reddit, confuses ""monopolies "" with some version of vertical integration. No loitering. No loitering. No Worry We've been doing QE since 2008, so why was inflation very low until recently if money printing always causes inflation? Japan is an even better example, they've been printing money for decades and yet their inflation has always been extremely low EDIT: When you ask: > Do you actually believe corporations only realized they can increase prices in the last couple of years? It's OK if you didn't read the [WSJ article I linked;](https://www.wsj.com/articles/inflation-yellen-biden-price-increase-cost-shipping-supply-chain-labor-shortage-pandemic-11636934826) here's the quote from it that's most relevant to your question: > “Honestly, **this is a very unprecedented environment. We haven’t seen this in probably 30 years**,” said Glenn Richter, the chief financial officer of International Flavors & Fragrances, a supplier to big food companies. > **Widespread inflation makes it easier to broach the topic of raising prices with customers,** Mr. Richter said. I added the bolding for convenience. _______________________ Original post from hereon: > his claim that increased money supply causes inflation. Their claim is that inflation is _exclusively_ caused by an increased money supply. The [research paper I linked](https://scholarworks.umass.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1348&context=econ_workingpaper) shows that the present inflation is _instead_ caused by firms with market power realizing their market power and leveraging expectations (whether those expectations are well-founded or not) to seek larger short-term profits. The fact that I had to scroll down so far on this thread for the correct answer is mind boggling. All these redditors glued to msnbc are delusional. Inflation = money supply. Full stop. Anything else is noise from talking heads justifying printing money. In good faith: look into ""monetary sovereignty"" and the difference between a currency user vs a currency issuer. None of the countries you listed had full monetary sovereignty the way countries like the USA or Japan do. Edit: Anyone that believes there is a tight correlation to money supply growth and inflation should be worried about deflation or disinflation now, as YoY M2 growth is negative. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=11xe1 Federal Reserve and UMass research's goal is clicks? OK champ. Now was that so hard? Now I can read and explore the data you’re using to make this claim! I don't know how you could blame inflation on greedy corporations without maintaining that they're also monopolies. Lack of solutions is not equal to a solution. Crony capitalism and bribery have perverted the system. I would love your idealism, but it’s not practical when solutions are needed. [deleted] No yelling on the bus No walking on the grass. There was no mass stimulus to citizens, and the Federal Reserve's balance sheet was less than half it is now. That money goes somewhere, and since they didn't use it to have some breakthrough that imoroved the economy, it simply inflated the economy artificially. The U.S. had high inflation for a decade in the 70's. So in a sense what's happening now, already happened. Didn't they have monetary sovereignty then? I don't think the origin for inflation has anything to do with monetary sovereignty, the consequences are often times global if the currency is used as an international trade currency (like we are seeing now with the USD) but the origin of inflation is subject to the same forces as any other currency. I also do not agree with the view that the Republic of Weimar, Venezuela or Argentina didn't have full monetary sovereignty, they all had central banks and could determine their own interest rates, and issue their own currency. I would welcome you editing your post down to just having those two sources. You talk to other adults like that in the real world you’d be sat down [deleted] or cartels No one has accused me “idealism” in a long time. Lol It feels like you think less government is not a solution. It is the only solution. No Fishing From Bridge 1. Those countries experienced hyperinflation from a collapse of productivity. Very different from 6% headline CPI. Was all of their national debt issued in a currency that they controlled? Or was it tied to something else like a commodity or denominated in a foreign currency? https://www.pragcap.com/understanding-hyperinflation/ 2. Inflation today is a combination of many different elements and the money supply is definitely one of those things. Market concentration is also one of those things, along with supply chain disruptions, globalization of manufacturing, lack of immigration in the USA, etc. https://ritholtz.com/2023/02/macro-snapshot-st-louis-fed/ But then I'd lose the Business Insider article that _actually quotes the firms raising their prices_: > ""What we are very good at is pricing,"" Colgate-Palmolive CEO Noel Wallace said. ""Whether it's foreign exchange inflation or raw and packing material inflation, we have found ways over time to recover that in our margin line."" > Unilever, which owns a staggering number of household brands, reported that while the number of sales dipped slightly across several of its major segments, it was still able to grow profits by raising prices by roughly 4%-5%. > ""Consumer-facing price is the last lever we normally use to manage inflation,"" Unilever CFO Graeme Pitkethly said before describing how they did it: ""We find that taking several small price increases is more effective than one large price jump."" > Proctor and Gamble also successfully rolled out a series of price hikes in the quarter that perhaps only the most eagle-eyed shopper would have noticed. > ""We have not seen any material reaction from consumers,"" P&G CFO Andre Schulten said. ""So that makes us feel good about our relative position."" > Some of the retailers that sell many of those companies' products also weighed in on their buck-passing ability. > ""We've been very comfortable with our ability to pass on the increases that we've seen at this point,"" Kroger CFO Gary Millerchip said. ""And we would expect that to continue to be the case."" Just in case you missed all those data. The point is, only those with monopolistic power can afford to raise prices if there's no underlying reason for rasing prices other than greed. Acknowledging they're greedy is not the same as suggesting they have sufficient pricing power and market share to move inflation higher You’re stuck in idealistic dogma. There is no “only” solution to anything. Less government involvement is a good thing in many cases. More intervention is necessary in others. My point is, which you’re not really addressing when only retorting “gubbamint bad”, is that almost all of the problems are uniquely suited to government solutions, going forward. TO START, politicians need to stop taking bribes constantly so the decisions and interventions *they’re already making anyways*, can actually benefit the public. If the government does nothing from here, it won’t fix anything and the economy will only exist for the few. The many will only exist for servitude. This isn’t some dystopian future, btw… it’s actually our not too distant past, and for way too many of us, is mostly how lives are lived today. “Do nothing” is not helpful… it’s the opposite No skateboarding > Was all of their national debt issued in a currency that they controlled? Or was it tied to something else like a commodity or denominated in a foreign currency? Again, [the U.S. had 2 digits inflation in several years inflation throughout the 70s](https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/inflation-rate-cpi) was that due to their national debt being issued in foreign currency or was their lack of monetary sovereignty also the cause for that high inflation? I don't think so. Tons of countries have their national debt issued in foreign currencies and they don't suffer from inflation. I would say that in any case, monetary sovereignty is actually detrimental for countries that are not responsible in their fiscal balances. > Those countries experienced hyperinflation from a collapse of productivity. I think we are putting the cart before the horse. They suffered a collapse in productivity due to inflation, fiscal deficit and corruption. Not the other way around. We definitely need the firms quotes to arrive at our worldview. If you say so. To me it sounds like you think the government is the solution to the government, but you do you. Again, high inflation and hyperinflation are very different. I encourage you to read the link I provided as it clarifies the collapse of productivity and the following hyperinflation feedback loop. Notice anything about the Asian Currency Crisis of 1997? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Asian_financial_crisis Also wanted to add that the high (not hyper) inflation in the USA was also largely sparked by a foreign war and market concentration via the OPEC embargo. Again, lots of elements to include strong labor unions, etc." Russian economy could default in just a few weeks—Morgan Stanley,1818,https://www.newsweek.com/morgan-stanley-russia-sovereign-debt-bond-default-ukraine-war-ruble-collapse-1685853,"Russia ”we got everything under control”. Yeah man don’t know it doesn’t look optimal tbh. The paper the ruble is printed on is starting to be worth more. They will default for sure. The only way Russia recovers from this is a total and complete regime change. And even IF that happens, It’s going to take a long fucking time to recover. They’ve essentially been nuked- economically speaking. The Russian people need to throw this regime out asap I fear the real fallout from this won’t be economic, but the cultural one that results from the economic fallout. this seems eerily reminiscent of Germany pre-WWII Yes, like Germany before WW2. So this could make the russian people even more angry at europe because they are still brainwashed. When this goes on long enough it could mean Putin will have support of his own people to start WW3. Which will lead to the destruction of Russia and so many others of it’s neighbors. Maybe they can hold Kyiv hostage and then use the city to ransom off a new debt offering in exchange for leaving. That would be quite a Zoom roadshow. ""Refinance our bonds or we will destroy this school."" Or maybe they can just nuke London. Can't default if your creditors are wiped out and dead. Question. What is the inflation rate likely equivalent to when a country defaults?? I saw some post yesterday by similar large investment firms predicting Russian inflation at 16-20% over the next 12 months. I feel like it could be significantly more. So what? Russia is obviously beyond caring about it’s credit rating and plans to pivot towards China and India. Does it even affect the test of the world? Asnt the Russian gdp just like 2% of thr global gdp? I hope they are wrong and it defaults tomorrow I feel bad for the Russian people, especially those who’ve been against the war. They’re the ones losing their lives, fighting a war they don’t wanna fight and living with the tyrannical government. Now their currency is worthless and they probably can’t even afford to move out and make a new life for themselves with the money they currently have. Putin declared that foreign debt of “unfriendly countries” in foreign currency can be paid in rubles. Isn’t that already essentially defaulting on those debts since the creditor won’t get the value of their debt paid back to them? Russia sanctions the West (palladium, nickel, oil), turns to China with their gold reserves and says hey let’s bank together comrade. Then they build relationships with India, Afghanistan, anyone who wants to say GTFO to the West. All the while they still take Ukraine because Nukes. Default, and then what? What would really happen? Stupid us ,then blame on russia Nothing builds faith in Morgan Stanley's crack analyst team than to hear them going from ""This will likely cause a moderate downturn for Russia going into next year"" to ""Yeah, you can't buy bread by April"" in about 7 days time. Here’s the real question. If the Russian people come for Putin, will he become impotently enraged and press the nuke button? Will anybody obey his order? Good Weeks? Squeeze harder. Someone needs to assassinate Putin and whoever else is crucial to his regime China will bail Russia out with generous line of credit. The sanctions imposed on the invasion consequence is not severe enough. And that's a great strategic move for Russia's competitors What is the global impact of a country the size of Russia defaulting? This sounds like it could have serious impact on our financial system. Serves the Russian people right, bunch of Putin enablers/facilitators Russians must have learned to be very self sufficient a long long time ago. Ministers: “Hey Boss, Millions of the people are starving and dying .” Stalin: Meh… we have many millions more Tovarisch. Trade some more of Ukraine wheat for steel to build tanks. Pretty mind blowing to see how fast Putin has run Russia into the ground. He is going to go down in history as probably the biggest idiot. Wut dat mean? Plz explain like I’m fetus. Is Russian fine buying gold and such to avoid inflation hazard? What happens when an economy defaults? What are the odds that Russia can get out of this? Is it even possible to check on the internet what is the real value of ruble right now? Google says it's 130 usdrub however this is fake. I wonder how much an ordinary Russian citizen in Russia has to pay for 1 USD. Oh no! Anyways. Days… it is Thursday, so 2 weeks from now is 11 days. Just saying. Gee, that’s too bad. 🤔🍺 Stop the bullshit n pull the plug already! People gotta eat Pretty sure it’s gone before then. I wonder if this is true or embellished. Also, could they default and then just borrow from china and other states that are friendly. If so it would further marginalize the petrodollar... Fingers crossed! How many times is this news going to posted!? Russian economy will be fine. This won’t move the needle for them in the long term or even the immediate turn I don’t think Anyone wants to share financial sites subscriptions like SeekingAlpha, CNBC, Bloomberg? PM me please. Hope we can get to a couple bucks a month and enjoy the news together! I also like to share Disney+, Google One (storage), Spotify, etc if anyone is interested. A piece of plain 8x11 paper is worth more than 1 cent, the ruble already it's worth less. (0.0077 dollars = 1 ruble) If my math is right, this is ~~15¢~~ 1.5¢ per piece of paper. https://www.officedepot.com/a/products/348037/Office-Depot-Brand-Multi-Use-Print/ Typical ruble notes in use before this is already 5000 rubles. The smallest note is 10 rubles. Rest assured that there needs to be a long way to go before the paper is worth more. I’m trying to imagine how they are supposed to do that. Do they bomb their own government headquarters? Which level? Just federal? Try to stage a military coup? Regrettably report that Putin fell off a balcony? Storm the capitol and smoke a doobie? Gather up 37 flags and drive them around on a truck? I don’t think modern citizens know how to do this. In the old days the mob just got hands on the king and cut his head off. The Russian people can't do anything when the country is run by autocrats (Same as in China)... Remember the Russian people because of state propoganda think the West is unfairly targeting them.. Plus Putin over 20+ years has crafted a loyal inner circle who basically guarantees he remains in power since if he's deposed they will face consequences too. Imagine this ,, Remember when the US invaded Iraq because of ""weapons of mass destruction"" , now if the entire world sanctioned us , and our government told us we were making Iraq better and the world just doesn't understand.. that's basically Putin's message to Russia. Its really hard for a country to question it's morality in war and not feel they are on the right side when there government is telling them otherwise. I agree with your sentiment on Putin. I fear a monkey paw moment where there is chaos and panic with a country with nukes. They have like 3000 warheads? I’ve heard 3000 to 6000, any event - enough to be a big problem. What if they panic? What if Nazi’s or some extreme group takes over? Would like to see an off ramp for Russia honestly. Let’s everyone chill out Depends on how well the world engages Russia to help in a post-Putin scenario. >I fear the real fallout from this won’t be economic, but the cultural one that results from the economic fallout. this seems eerily reminiscent of Germany pre-WWII It's something to watch out for, but there aren't too many parallels. (1) After fighting WW1, the Allies dismembered parts of German territory. Nothing of the sort is happening to Russia, the West isn't even directly fighting it. (2) Interwar Germany was scary because Germany, even after the Treaty of Versailles, was still the most powerful nation in Europe, and Britain and France were not coordinating as allies and marching to their own beats (long story). Neither of them will be true in our case; Russia is nowhere powerful for either the US or the EU, and NATO coordination seems strong at the moment. The only true issue to watch out for is the Sino-Russian cooperation. Russian fertility rate is one of the lowest in the world. Economy and couture depends needs new generation of Russians. Than new generation of Russians isn’t being born ( not in sufficient quantities to take Russia in any direction regardless of what direction it may be) I wouldn’t say more like parallel. Either we forget our humanity and let it fall to Russia or we start WW3. There is nothing good to come from this. If we attacked, China would likely side with Russia as it would be in their own best interests to do so. Nothing would be left. But you are correct, a lot of why WW2 started was due to Germany’s economic situation post WW1. I am assuming that all governments are getting ready for relief packages for when Putin is gone. I’d hope that people in charge of things can at least predict this horizon. I also don’t see Putin being alive much longer. If Putin let’s China pillage it, the Russian autocrats and people will be on the same team, and that’s fucking scary lol. They’re not really brain washed tbh. Lots of Russians you can talk to online. It’s not exactly a closed door world >Can't default if your creditors are wiped out and dead. I'd say that's functionally just a more dramatic default. I can't* think of what would dissuade prospective future lenders more than vaporizing the current ones. Could definitely be more than that. Check what happened to Venezuela post 2017 20 billion usd of russian debt is owned by foreign entities. Beyond immediate financial consequences, it will affect their exports as the biggest exporter of wheat, iron, nickel and nitrogenous fertilizer, as well as an oil and gas exporter. It will take a while to find and set up replacement for all that GDP isn't really a good measurement tool. Debt payment is due on March 16 and there is a 30 day grace period. Russian from a rather small town here. Uhh.. is it not considered a luxury to be able to move out of your country and know you'll be fine? Indeed. Russia's economy is going to be a hot mess for a long time. Not so easy. They won't really trade much with anyone. China will rape Russia of its resources. India will be looking left to right, Russia can't help them anymore as they need Chinese support. India might even change tact toward NATO. Will not work. There are too many things that are needed to get from the US and the EU. Take passenger planes. There is only Boeing and AirBus. Or farm equipment. China has limited capabilities. Russia basically has none and same with India. The top four in China are from the US, Japan, US and Germany. Chip technology requires US IP for anything 65 nm or smaller. The problem with the block of countries that you shared is that they do labor. Cheap labor. But they really do not design things. This is also why Taiwan is so important. Taiwan is really a lot more important than even China. Plus it would be sucide for China and India to turn their backs on the west. Russia is a poor country. Plus getting poorer. They just do not offer anything that could at all compete with the West. You have to realize the Russian economy was the size of Florida. Yes a single state in a single country in the west. Take the grain that Russia produces. It requires the use of equipment and the place that equipment comes from is the West. Not China or India. If you for a second believe that China is going to profit by this you’d be dead wrong. There should be massive buying power behind these countries as well. Making all sanctioned countries your client really doesn’t provide massive profits tbh. Russias economy was as big as Spains economy before the invasion. Russia has required all loans to be paid in rubles which creates a demand for the ruble helping mitigate its collapse; backs the ruble with gold, oil, and foreign influence with countries that don’t like the west this allows them to survive any sanction put on by the west and can actually hurt the west more in the long term. Couple that with somehow working with China (not easy I’m sure but possible) we’re looking at an impressive shift in the global economy. The article does say what the potential result of this would be. TLDR- Other countries would be highly unlikely to lend Russia money. Russia's economy would shrink significantly and Russian commodities like oil and palladium will increase substantially in price. If energy prices continue to climb the world might be tipped into a recession. Lenders don’t get paid. Next time Russia wants to lend money, it will be impossible or very expensive. Basically, dogs and cats living together. Total anarchy. The iron curtain will be fully back - closed economy. The people will suffer greatly from deglobalization. It will look like Russia of the 80s. If only Russians didn't launch a full scale war in Europe. Poor old fucking Russia There is multiple steps to sending nukes that involves many people, none of whom would want for the world to end. Putin is a man that sits at stupidly long tables to preserve his safety. He is not a man that wants to die tomorrow. China will offer Russia the least what it is necessary to gat the maximum benefits for China, Ha! Minimal. Russia is actually a really poor country. That is now a lot poorer. It is pretty amazing to watch how fast Putin has run Russia into the ground. In 2014, before Russia invaded Crimea, their per capita was over $15,000 USD. Before the Ukraine war it had fallen below $10,000 USD. That was before the war and before the Ruble lost over 40% of its value. Russia was a poor country that is now a really, really poor country. Their economy is tiny, it would be like Wyoming defaulting on it’s debt. Default is the failure to repay a debt, including interest or principal, on a loan or security. A default can occur when a borrower is unable to make timely payments, misses payments, or avoids or stops making payments. Russia owes roughly $40 billion worth of euro- and dollar-denominated sovereign debt, approximately $20 billion of which is held by foreigners. Normally, a sovereign default leads to a long period of debt restructuring. A government might negotiate with bondholders and offer the promise of favorable policy changes in exchange for some level of debt forgiveness. In the meantime, bondholders are left sitting on billions in losses. Because investors don’t want to buy bonds from a country in default, governments usually try to resolve debt issues so that they can return to raising funds. Its cringe and not at all based Don’t know, but it will probably be Donald Trump’s fault. I would say you don’t get to trade Twinkies and HoHos at the school lunch table anymore because you promised to pay your friends back one too many times. So now you can only trade school lunch desserts with that small kid you can beat up. Or if youre the small kid, then the only one who will trade with you is the one who can beat you up, and he will demand you pay double for delicious sugary snacks and he’ll still punch you in the gut every now and then just cause. Your math is wrong. It is 1.5 cents per page, not 15. It’s also overpriced. But still costs more than 1 ruble per page. They did it in 91 I’m sure they can figure it out now I’m no expert but I’d imagine that nobody in this generation has had it bad enough to really take the action needed overthrow a repressive government. I suspect that once life is hard enough for enough people it just happens… when the elite no longer feel safe anywhere in the country, and are no longer confident they can keep buying the support of the people they rely on…. When the despot sits bolt upright in bed with every creak or distant noise wondering if it’s a mob at the gates or his bodyguard has just received a better offer…. Then I think it kicks off. Jan 6th and the trucker convoys were petulant children’s tantrums, they weren’t desperate, they were cranky. Russian know. Ukrainians next door did just that few years ago. “Gather up 37 flags and drive them around on a truck?” is such a good line. Mass protests, focussed and targeted at Putin. On the Red Square. Make sure everyone sees it. The point is not to drag Putin out for a public execution Gaddafi style (though you’d love to see it), but to signal to some new authoritarian within the regime that a coup d’etat would be widely popular. Many authoritarian figures begin as popular for some strong action they took before being corrupted, in this case that strong action is the deposing of Putin. It doesn’t change anything structurally though. Only if the new leader is susceptible to being overthrown by multiple parties in rapid succession, democracy becomes more popular in Russian protests, and the new leader is able to control the Duma, would there be a chance for wide scale constitutional reform. And then of course the West would need to facilitate this. Not only lifting sanctions, but actively investing in Russian economy so long certain democratic and anti-corruption standards are upheld. 20 million Russian civilians are going to have to die in revolution for us to escape nuclear war. In western countries there’s a process of succession that outlines in law exactly how transitions of power occur. Russia doesn’t have that. So if that means they have to storm the Kremlin and a thousand people have to die, then I guess that’s what how they do it. Such is the price of not solving this problem yet. I vote they defenestrate him after making him wear plutonium210 underpants. I completely and utterly disagree with this sentiment. The \*only\* people who can do anything are the people. Any serious, democratic regime change must originate with the people, and with their shared spirit. The Russian people, as demonstrated by its various governments and social structures over the past 300 years, has perhaps the strongest appetite for autocracy of any nation. it is this spirit which must change if they are to guard against leaders like Putin. That’s optimistic There should have been a Marshal Plan for Russia in 91’, maybe this time around the west will get it right. I have a feeling that there will be a reverse land grab after this. If we come out the other side Putin free. I think the new leadership may want to smooth things over with neighboring countries, and extend an olive branch. Maybe give back land taken unethically back to original countries. I just don’t think Russia will have the political strength to keep the whole country together after this. Who knows though, dice are up in the air, and we are all trying to guess what number shows up. :) I don’t think that China would pick a side. They don’t like Russia, Russia is that creepy neighbor that needs to barrow money. China would get pummeled from sanctions. The rest of the world would get smacked by inflation and lack of finished goods, but India would start ramping up production facilities and become the world’s manufacturing center. But other than that everything would be heavy speculation. Kinda tired of this take because it’s just not true… if all the leaders of the free world asked China to stay neutral in exchange for maintaining trade relations, they would. We should do that today and then start shooting down Russian planes tomorrow. I could see the head of the Russian FSO (Alexey Rubezhnoy) stepping into the power vacuum left by Putin. Or Dmitry Kochnev as he’s better known. Either way it’s not just an out and out win that we would want to throw resources at. I do wonder if we have a preferred successor who that might be. It would definitely nuke their credit score Ya...exactly the reference I was thinking. > 20 billion usd of russian debt is owned by foreign entities This is not a huge deal when compared to greece in 2010, when they owed something like $400b You also have to look at who buys their stuff - [wheat](https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/INTERACTIVE-Russian-and-Ukranian-wheat-export.png), for example. None of those trade partners are participating in the sanctions. Egypt is not going to have to find another supplier for food, because they are going to keep buying wheat from Russia. [deleted] why would they pay the debt while on sanctions? if you sanction them dont expect them to pay the debts they have with you... Exactly. China will screw Russia bigly So Ukraine gets taken by Russia for natural resources and then China take Taiwan for chips. The cheap labour countries you mention are utilized to stimulate the new world economy in China and Russia? I realize how far fetched this sounds but with sanction after sanction being implemented and the threat of nuclear war. Seems like anything is possible at this point. Russia makes like 17% of the world's grain. They can't sell it to anyone except China. China knows this and can pay pithy sums for it for their food and animal feed and whatever grain is used for. Same might be for their oil and whatever other stuff Russia produces. China can profit from this. >Making all sanctioned countries your client really doesn’t provide massive profits tbh. why? Yeah but then we’d have to read the article. No time for that…just headlines and top comments. That’s all we need to read /s [deleted] Lol bro,America had so many war before,what’s the difference? damn zeroes A page can fit 10 bank notes [deleted] No they didn't. There was an attempted coup from insiders, but that failed. Are you talking about no one in Russia lives badly enough or no one in the world? You should look into some Africa, South america, caribbean, mediterranean, asia, and Middle Eastern areas. All things considered, even Russians live pretty well compared to a lot of other places in the world. There have most certainly been 21st century revolutions and there are most certainly many countries living under such corrupt regimes and poor conditions that revolting is absolutely warranted. Your average Russian spends half their pay on food, things aren’t exactly going well over there to begin with Yes agree but how do we do it without going out, maybe online through our phones. The sad secret is, the true intelligence of Russia is far and few in between. Those are the only ones who could really do something. Others either don’t care or brainwashed. And those intelligent people leave the country because of the brain drain. The USA and China might have a huge interest with a regime change in Russia think of the power vacuum In the interest of nuclear non proliferation, an intervention is highly likely. [The devil is in the details. ](https://youtu.be/dkMlLkCRmRQ) Will the intervention be military or economic? Early or late in the new regime's establishment? Led by Nato, UN, China, or some combo thereof? Will the scope be minimal to stabilize the arsenal's security, xor a long term nation building project? That starts with dismantling their heavy nukes and disarming them, except for what ever tactical toe poppers they want to hold on to. The end game has to be to return Russia to its status as just another European power and we get on with gelding China. It’ll definitely be interesting to see what influences actually succeed after he’s gone. Let’s all hope that this is the last horrific step for Russia to revamp their political system. You're comparing the next coupon payement of Russian debt and the total Greek debt. My next loan monthly check is also lower than an entire mortgage duh. That being said, Russian total debt is indeed low. Perk of being an oil country. They can’t produce the same quantity of wheat if they can’t buy tractors, fertiliser, etc. They might produce a fair bit of machinery but sanctions will hit productive capacity at multiple points in their supply chain. And China is going to sell its goods to the highest bidder which an impoverished Russia will not be. When food is affected, the real internal conflict will begin. It wi unravel just like it did in ""The Three Body Problem"" >why would they pay the debt while on sanctions? That's precisely why they default. If they default though, their bonds will be valued about as much as Venezuelians', it will be hard to finance anything in the future. >if you sanction them dont expect them to pay the debts they have with you... John Doe the retiree and his equivalent of 401k has nothing to do with decision to sanction Already reading rumors of the Chinese looking into buying stakes in Russian oil and gas companies Yes and they will Russia will most like be a province to China once all of this is over IF we dont have WWIII breaking because that means we have zero outlook where that could lead us. A strong currency is good for that sort of thing. Ruble makes the buying power of the country weak. Last article I read is that for example the cell phone market between china and russia was cut in half. If your currency is almost worthless you can’t buy that much for it. Basically you get less of something when you pay. Lets not fool ourselves either that the economy of a ordinary household isn’t great compared to other countries. They really need to start putting the whole article in the headline No thanks. Someone already did that. They got paid for it too. There are 10 cases of paper. $77 / 5000 = 1.5 cents per page That’s assuming only 1 bill per page [deleted] Hmmm I bet someone could get hired as a cook and poison the fucker. Sometimes modern problems need medieval solutions. ;D I was reading an article the other day about what the average Russian would consider to be a good salary vs what they typically earn. They said that they would consider $10k/yr to be a good salary because most Russians, outside of the Moscow elite, earn around ~$6k/yr. It blew my mind to know that, what's considered a developed nation, can be so poor. Then, for them to think that $10k/yr is any better is mind boggling. Source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/482512/russia-population-distribution-by-monthly-per-capita-money-income/ I can't find the article I read, but that website shows that the average Russian salary in USD (prior to the Ukraine invasion) was $363-605/month, or an average of ~$6k/yr. Compare that to what the Moscow elite earn annually, which is in the millions. That means that Putin and his oligarch cronies make at least ~17,000% more per year than the average Russian, when using a $1 million per annum minimum earnings baseline. No way Russia will let US in again. Russian people should decide their own fate anyway. I'm just using your number lol, you made it sound like that's the total debt. What's the total russian number? they do tho thats how governments work the us is at fault for john doe's retirement account being worthless now China isn’t stupid. They won’t give Russia anything right now without getting significant collateral - Russia is perfectly willing to ignore ownership when it suits them, and anything China “owns” inside Russia is basically a hostage. China knows that. They won’t *give* Russia anything. Yes, China will trade with Russia. But they’ll do it for pennies on the dollar, and probably requiring metals/oil/wheat deliveries, not rubles. Russia will be a yuan-based economy if they need to depend on China for more than a few months. If we don’t win WWIII *ftfy I don't like this movie I still don't see any relations whatsoever with the original comment Yes and if you do 10 notes per page your cost per note is 0.15 cents Also assumes that bills only come in increments of 1, which they don’t [Infographic Show - Putin's Private Security](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StyyMlE9ZnI) Here you go. Me too!!! Russia is a wealthy country where the population is robbed absolutely blind by those in power. They’re going need aid from somewhere and that’s a great way to strengthen relations and foster a real democracy there (see examples like Germany & Japan post-WWII and the entire eastern bloc post-cold war). So it would be a win/win for Russia and the US & EU. It’s not about the US dictating anything in Russia. It’s about giving aid that makes it to the people and helps them regain a sense of normalcy and optimism about the future. We didn’t continue punishing the Japanese public after World War II and they’re now one of our closest allies. Same went for helping to rebuild Germany. Nah it's just what Russia owes for next Wednesday About 280 B$ apparently. 20% of GDP. Oil, gas and gold producing country have it easy 😂 No, its Russias fault. John Doe might not even be American. Russia has nothing to gain in antagonising all investors of all nationalities. If they default it's better be because they have no other choice, or they will hardly be financed again after the war Yup, they still buy Iranian oil but at a steep discount. China is not paying anywhere near the market rate. Will be very important to stress to the Russian people the economic pillaging that China is doing to Russia on account of Putin's folly. CIA are you listening!? And they aren’t printing rubles on copy paper. Or buying it at retail from Office Depot. I think we are beating a dead horse at this point. Those animations and robotic voice are nauseating Thanks for the link, take care. See example of US/Russia relations in the 90s. Putin came out of that. We aren’t at war with Russia. So comparisons to post-WW2 Axis countries aren’t really apt. Someone will have to help Russia out. I just don’t think they are rushing to get in bed with the US again. The article in the OP is saying the sovereign debt is $50b, and reuters is saying the outstanding sovereign debt is only $40b: https://www.reuters.com/markets/rates-bonds/russia-says-sovereign-bond-payments-will-depend-sanctions-2022-03-06/ Russia can easily service this, so I wonder if this is just a play to try to get their overseas assets unfrozen. I'm assuming your 280B includes Russian corporate bonds. Risk of widespread contagion from those is significantly lower. it doesnt matter if they are american, the governments creating the sanctions were the ones that made the debt useless they are the ones that fucked those retirements... Yes much cheaper paper, massive volumes It still the Ruble has low value Haha that channel needs to upgrade their animation budget No, Putin ended it by staging a fake crisis in which he bombed his own people to consolidate power and install himself as a dictator and then further consolidated wealth and power by appropriating companies like Gazprom for the “state” (really himself) and throwing the founder/CEO in jail for life for trumped up bullshit charges and then repeating that over and over with political opponents while collecting “compromat” on other oligarchs to use their newfound wealth and power to his advantage. It didn’t have to be that way. Correlation does not equal causation. Whether you call it war or not, the economic strife associated with sanctions are US led in the minds of the Russian people. If there were a regime change and the sanctions go away without the US/EU working with the people of Russia to help restart their economy, there will be a massive resentment harbored against the west for generations. This is specifically what happened that led to the rise of Hitler. The economic depression and austerity German people faced in the 20’s due to harshly imposed and unrelenting war reparations led to insane popularity of a fascist who directed that resentment at “the enemy”. Creating an era of economic strife due to a regime without any engagement post-regime is you you entrench long term division. Okok, nice thanks Well you can contact WSJ or Forbes if you can write an argumented piece about how it is Chinese investors fault if USA and friends sanctionned Russia. Meanwhile the World will hardly lend to Russia in the foreseeable future. Slava Ukraini! Not sure what you are saying. That US relations with Russia were super awesome until Putin got power hungry? That Russians are just waiting to bring the good old Yeltsin era back? Yeah, I know the history. I don’t agree that situations are the same or will be the same. I’m not saying that Russia shouldn’t be helped out when this is over, I just don’t think anyone would want the US heavily involved unless it was because the remaining oligarchs sold the nation off to US corporate interests. Whatever happens, it will be a mess. History does repeat itself, but which history will it be? are you high? im saying its the usa and friends fault the chinese investors are fucked In comparison? Yes. They were off to a decent start before Putin quickly took them from a democracy to a dictatorship If I’m not mistaken, countries can’t really push away foreign aid. It would be political suicide for any new leadership. More than likely the new leader would take relief and pass it off as a demonstration of his aptitude to find solutions other than war to fix problems. But I could be wrong, I am not super educated on Russian political structures, and the limit for resentment instilled because of convincing propaganda and nationalism. No you didn't. Me : > Blah blah blah investors have nothing to do with sanctions You : > They do tho. That's how government works It's written right there. Why lying ? Internet points ? [Do these sound like the words of a man who thinks they’re off to a decent start?](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6584973.stm) Yeah. “I ask to forgive me for not fulfilling some hopes of those people who believed that we would be able to jump from the grey, stagnating, totalitarian past into a bright, rich and civilized future in one go.”" Russia Is Spiraling Toward a $150 Billion Default Nightmare,1806,https://finance.yahoo.com/news/russia-spiraling-toward-150-billion-040120029.html,"They aren't spiraling. It's a straight dive. [deleted] I like how they say ""While the debt is substantial, it’s probably not enough to cause a systemic problem for financial markets. That’s the view of International Monetary Fund Managing Director Kristalina Georgieva, who said last weekend that banks’ exposure is “not systemically relevant.”"" Which is something banks tend to say while they're scrambling to protect their assets just prior to them announcing that it is in fact a crash. Ummm.. what are they even talking about. The bonds are already trading at pennies on the dollar and no one in their right mind will lend to Russia. Default event is just a formality at this point. If anyone says otherwise, they are trying to sell you something or have an agenda. And $150B just ain't what it used to be in terms of damage to global financial system. To put things in perspective US federal bonds are worth around $46 Trillion and US stock market cap is $53 Trillion (with a T). Russia defaulted on all its foreign obligations when it started dropping bombs on a nation being supplied arms by NATO countries. Any westerner owning Russian assets that thinks they are getting a cent back is either an imbecile or just delusional. All foreign owned stock has already been written down to zero (at least by responsible institutions like pensions and asset managers). Those are such petty numbers. Not even a trillion? More coverage at: * [Would a Russian debt default trigger global financial crisis? (msn.com)](https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/would-a-russian-debt-default-trigger-global-financial-crisis/ar-AAV8som) * [How would a Russian debt default affect global markets? (cbsnews.com)](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-debt-default-ruble-ukraine/) * [Russia is Staring Sovereign Default in the Face (fool.com)](https://www.fool.com/investing/2022/03/15/russia-is-staring-sovereign-default-in-the-face/?source=eptmsmlnk0000001&utm_source=msnrss&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=article) --- ^(I'm a bot to find news from different sources.) [^(Report an issue)](https://www.reddit.com/user/MultiSourceNews_Bot/comments/k5pcrc/multisourcenews_bot_info/) ^(or PM me.) “Everything’s going according to plan”…says Putin. >If Russia doesn’t meet its obligations, there’s technically a 30-day grace period that gives it until April 15 to make good. They got a month and also what are the consequences? They won't be able to borrow more for a while until they start paying again? Doesn't seem like such a nightmare Ehm... As per WSJ article: ""Russia’s finance minister said the country paid what it owed on its foreign debts on Wednesday but wasn’t sure if the payments would go through, blaming U.S. sanctions for setting the country on the path toward default"" Article 9A permits transactions that relate to payments of sovereign debts, and the finance minister said that IN CASE payments in USD won't go through, Russia will pay in Rubles. So... There should be no problem in debt servicing or am I missing something? It sucks the citizens in both nations are suffering because of Putin’s decisions. The only people who can put an end to this war soon are the Russian people. They need to force him out before he causes more damage. Make him answer to The Hague. Maybe a stupid question: But if you're gonna default and never pay your debt, isn't it better (for you) to do it with as large debt as possible? Russias debt is about 20 % of GDP, wouldn't it be better if they defaulted on a 120 % debt and bought weapons and yachts for all the extra money? Do they not have enough natural resources to completely say fuck all of our creditors and go rogue? Genuinely curious if putin could in theory create a new regime Bury the mother fuckers My god who writes this trash...oh look, yahoo finance...can we mods just block any yahoo links?? Russia ALREADY defaulted, in essence. But how can I short a whole ass country… Does anyone here hold multiple ‘blue chip’ currencies to hedge against this risk? The thing is this is going to effect the world economy. I’m all for making Russia pay for what they are doing but all it’s going to do is making living conditions for the middle and working class terrible. A ""default nightmare?"" For who?? The rest of the world just told them to f*** off. Why would they care if their debtors get paid? Seriously? ""Derp, no one will lend them money."" Uh... no one is lending them money, BUT they are confiscating their leader's assets and setting sanctions on them. And, no, it doesn't matter if you feel the actions listed were merited or not. Russia has absolutely NO incentive to pay anyone that's engaged in actions against their country. Good, they deserve much worse. What's new? 150 billion seems like a minuscule # for such a large economy, heck we are over 30 billion AND CLIMBING and my lights are still on. I think this media hype is greatly overexaggerated. Thats like one oil contract with india lol Russia will not default. Day 21: US still thinks the dollar will remain the world currency 🤦🏻‍♂️ $YTEN ;-) Oh no START THE ROUBLE PRINTERS! Special Romanov 2.0 but with an evil evil man! Spiral away motherfuckers. So who is taking their spot in g20 ? They will fold economy this year and it will take them a decade to rebuild even if they would stop war today which they don’t seem to want. It reads to me like they are being forced into a material default by virtue of the currency they are going to pay in. I wonder what the CDS is trading at? That is the canary in the coal mine so to speak. Even if they are locked out of the traditional capital markets they can trade with China and other friendly countries for hard currency. I think this will only enhance the Yuan and further underscore the fact that the sun is setting on the dollar hegemony. get ready for the April default ladies and gents Funny how all Russian shills and Puler simps are busy making comments about ""Sanctions don't hurt"" and, simultaneously claiming ""they do work, but they hurt the people"". Make up your mind...shills. Or don't, your bitter tears of defeat is a sure sign daddy Putler is hurting bad, sending out the full troll army. Who are they defaulting on? Please tell me it’s China. Is there a website to find information of financial institutions? Do you study investing before deciding where to invest? How? Let's share. ""This isn't spiraling. It's falling, with style."" Buzz Putin Point your toes Russia. This is defenestration. Hold my Vodka, I’m going in -Putin 2022 Yeah this is nuts. They only have to come up with 117 million to service the debt now, and they cant even do that. Whats crazy though is that they do have billions stored in these locked accounts. So if debtors need to seize capital after a default, cant banks allow them to seize those assets? Hasn't Bezos created 800+billion in value to the economy. He only owns whatever percentage (18 to 20% or whatever it is) of the company. The rest is floated on the stock market and probably bought buy everyone's retirement funds (if you don't have one you should, but even 5 dollars a week adds up with compound interest) and shit. I'm not denying inequality at all, but it's not Bezos fault. I saw a really interesting interview with the PayPal dude talking about how it's normal practice to let the market price wages and how when they surveyed staff they realised that is stupid. If Amazon just ignored the market wage rate (which they should) they could really fuck up the economy. These problems have actual solutions, but tits not as simple as eat the rich. It's also not difficult. But that is a much longer story. IMO. Most large companies in USA make more profit per year than the Russian military budget per year. I wouldn't be surprised if Amazon was larger than the entire Russian economy right now. In case of default, couldn’t the banks/debtor claim against Russia’s reserve? Technically the money is still there, it’s just not accessible to Russia. It would be a sovereign default - they happen. Not great but not the end of the world, financially It’s not like people use OFZ bonds as collateral in repo markets “This is fine. Everything’s fine” (as the world burns in the background) So you're telling me there's a chance......YES!!!!! Read somewhere that the value of some big park in New York is worth multiple trillions too. Helps put such numbers in perspective. I came here to say the same You discount the political factor. If Russia (perhaps under a new leader) withdraws all of their force from Ukraine, give back all land and pay some reparation all in exchange of lifting the sanctions. In that case, I think the west would agree and asset prices will return not to normal, but not close to zero. And the probability of this to happen is not zero. Default is a formality Nations that run significant trade surpluses (such as commodity dominant based economies) don’t usually run massive deficits. Putin needs some adderal When they do start borrowing again, lenders will be expecting much higher interest rates. Great for lenders. Bad for the Russian people (especially younger generations). What are the odds that some of those loans were used to buy gold and Bitcoin? Legal rules regarding the national currency used to pay debt prohibits the use of Roubles, even before their massive devaluation. Have you ever watched the tinder swindler? People shouldn't be blaming solely Putin. Doing so downplays the role massive amounts of people have in supporting him. The Siloviks, the Oligarchs the hordes of ordinary Russians who love him. Putin did not invent this issue. Russia had ambitions regardless Ukraine for centuries regardless of ruler, regardless of regime, regardless of era. This ambition is part of Russian identity, Putin just represents ideas that substantial percentage of population had been holding dear, for a very long time. It is true that Ukrainians and Russians are very close historically, culturally. So we, Ukrainians, know Russia like no one else. The sanctions are in the hands of the West. from who? I don't think there are many intuitions that are lining up to offer them loans right now. There is also a point of no return where Cost of Interest is so high that there is nothing a country can do. The loans the country takes out to just to pay the interest on their existing loans reaches a point where the market thinks it will snowball out of control so lenders pull out. And the country defaults. Good economies don't reach this point until a very high debt to GDP%. Crappy economies like Russia reach this point much lower. So basically Russia can't really reach something like 100% Debt to GDP because lenders will know that they can't pay that back and don't give Russia the debt to begin with. it's a great point. They should have run up their credit cards first before nose diving the country into a tarpit. Not an economist, but I would imagine you don't get to just declare bankruptcy and walk away from your debt. It's probably more like bankruptcies for large companies, where there's a process by which some of your debt is discharged, some of it is pushed down the line, and some of it is painfully paid off. Otherwise, future loans get much, much harder to come by. It’s not about the resources for themselves it’s about the ability to sell those resources for money. Putin is partly powerful because he gets support from Russia’s richest people. But Russia’s richest people all have huge money invested outside of Russia. None of them are in any way patriotic for Russia. They are only patriotic for money. All do their kids live and go to schools outside of Russia. They have many properties outside of Russia. Etc. Now many of them lost these funds or an ability to use dollars how they want. They know perfectly well that they can have unlimited supply of rubles but that they cannot buy what they are used to with them. Russian tv recently says a lot about how China will help them. But many Russians who know economics also realize that China will have to do it in a way which benefits Chinese businessmen and government. That means they will buy up Russian companies and resources for lower price than Russia normally sells them, and it will sell their products to Russia for prices higher than Russia normally bought them. As a result China will become richer and Russia poorer and all of its industry will be owned by China. Pretty hard to be able to go it completely isolated in 2022. Russia is completely screwed. How would owning currencies hedge this risk effectively? I’d wager currencies are particularly vulnerable in the event of a default, pivoting to equities or commodities is a more appropriate hedge. China The people don't the Kremlin does Russia's economy is pretty small actually. Italy's GDP is higher. The entire Russian economy is just over half the size of California's. It will And even if it doesn’t , do you think China won’t weaponize its currency aswell smartie pants? It’s forward progress until you hit the bottom. This comment deserves more lol Toe pick! Surely it doesn't seem right to seize those frozen assets. You don't want Russia to be able to discharge liabilities using frozen assets, otherwise they're not frozen anymore! They don't want to pay as they already know they are cut off from global financial markets until 3-5 years after Putin is in the ground. Why bother paying creditors if you know they will never lend to you again in your life time? Russia can come up with 117mln$, but it doesn't want to. It's like a hissy fit against everyone: ""You dare sanctioning me? I'll fucking sanction you!"" Officially, Russia is ready to pay, just not in USD but in Rubles. If they do that, it's still technically a default, but I think they will backtrack even from that Interesting question. Russia definitely has the money. Russia doesn't want to pay the debt though. And even if it wanted to, it would have to jump through many hoops and hurdles to actually transfer USD to the creditors. So yeah, it will default, but it's more technical default in nature, not bankruptcy. Yes. It’s been done with offshore reserves on sovereign defaults previously (Argentina is the most recent notable seizure). Send the repo man to a Russian bank to seize an oligarchs assets. GFL They could pay it if they simply sold all their tanks and military jets and choppers to Ukraine. I mean the ones that are still in working condition. They won’t. They can but they won’t. Besos Did not reach the level of wealth he has out of nowhere. He created a revolutionary business leveraging brand new technology at the time. The company now reaches all across the globe and it's ripple effects have extended into other businesses and other industries to remain competitive. Billions of people each year enjoy the services that Amazon offers. Bezos benefits because everybody in this world has also benefited. Could you imagine a world without Amazon and without all the ripple effects that extended into other businesses and other industries? I strongly prefer Amazon sticking around [deleted] To add I think this movement of eating the rich is very short-sighted. What would people define as rich? 1%? 1% of the 1%? 10% of the top 10%? People love to hate on Jeff bezos but then endorse celebrities all the time. People hate on Wall Street and Wall Street executives but then go support their favorite athletes for Sunday night football. This selective envy and selective hatred towards rich people is odd because the majority of wealthy people are wealthy due to either smart business decisions or the fact that they're engaged in a profession that awards them a healthy salary. Example athletes and actors. We could even argue that a lot of pop culture icons like rap stars and pop stars are incredibly wealthy and those people probably have more corrupt values and morals than a Wall Street executive. I mean if people want to hate rich people why are we idolizing athletes and movie stars? Actors are paid millions of dollars a year because millions of people enjoy their movies. Athletes are paid millions of dollars a year because millions of people enjoy sport entertainment. Jeff bezos on papers worth billions of dollars because millions of people enjoy the services that Amazon has provided. > Larger than the economy If you’re referring to market cap vs Russian gdp that’s like comparing how fast a car can go in one year vs the total fuel tank capacity of another. Apple has enough cash to buy 2/3 of the biggest 20 companies https://companiesmarketcap.com/russia/largest-companies-in-russia-by-market-cap/. https://www.investors.com/etfs-and-funds/sectors/sp500-companies-stockpile-1-trillion-cash-investors-want-it/ Pretty much just straight wage garnishing at this point. Yes they could try to claim against russian frozen assets, it will just take years in court. They would need these reserves to pay reparations to Ukraine That may also be what Russia would want. They can’t pay the debts due to their freezes. It depends on which banks are in debt. In principal, we shouldn’t be helping to pay off Russia’s debts. There needs to be a clear signal that trade with Russia, including past trade, is toxic. Exactly this. Russia wants to pay but can’t pay and then everyone starts worrying that the world economy is going to collapse while everyone is buying gas for €350M worth per day. Russians did hold their bargain of oil and gas delivery for their contracts and obligations. So supply is still available. If those participants of markets are so worried about it, let them rally to Fed and riot to let Russia pay. Or find an attorney/notary on an international level to represent both sides and transact from the reserve only what is owed. Are people that drive economies and make sanction policies that stupid? Also countries with a recent history of default and with resulting low credit ratings don't usually attract much foriegn credit Remarkable how quickly one of Europe’s highest credit rated economies can just fold when unplugged and isolated. Their low debt and trade surplus essentially mean nothing at this point. I doubt many risk assessments included a scenario of the entire financial system, including the central bank, being sanctioned. Especially given the lack of consequences for similar previous behavior. However the payments were made in USD / EUR I will preface this by saying I’d like to take a hacksaw to Putin on live television. The narrative in the West is also significantly influenced by propaganda. Russians do not, by and large, hate Putin. This American Life did a great re-airing of a prior episode on his rise to power, and address the polling and general feelings towards him in that episode- it’s well worth a listen. Ukraine is very likely to fall to Russia, however long and bloody that is. NATO isn’t going to directly act unless he violates a NATO country. Can’t argue with you if you’ve lived through it and I have not. What will put an end to this national ambition? Will an overthrow of Putin and government reform toward a more democratic Russia be enough to show them the way out of this? It’s clearly what you Ukies have fought to have for so long.. The world would be a better place with a new Russia that embraced the world and was another ally along with Ukraine. Both nations people deserve better. I sure as hell would love to see it written in the history books that Ukraine was responsible for the Russian revolution that changed them for good. Fight on you brave bastards! Your nation is bringing change to the world. God Speed. Really? The sanctions are the problem, not the war? Putin was warned about the sanctions before he invaded and still did it anyway. They’re a deterrent and a way of stopping a war. The sanctions hurt Russia, but were brought on by Putin. Nobody wants to trade or include nations that are invaders anyway. Sanctions are the least anyone should expect in war. Especially people threatening nuclear retaliation. Fuck that. I don't mean they should borrow money now, but that it seems kind of pointless to have such a low debt when you are defaulting anyway. When country with nuclear weapons screwed, it's whole world at gun point. Good luck during nuclear winter, or at least much less stable world in future I got that part, but California by GDP is a top ten economy so putting Russia at half that number is still very large. This again enforces my point that a 150 billion isn't shit for Russia. Sure… We shall speak again 😜 You mean like US does? 🤦🏻‍♂️ It's bellow bottom from here. Toe knife Trusova era Yeah it's tricky territory They are frozen if you take them forcefully. And it wouldn’t be a waste to discharge liability but a way to enforce security and recall the entirety of the loan That money should be given to Ukraine as part of war reparations… Largely agree - minor point: they can’t come up with it if it’s non-ruble-denominated. Their foreign assets are frozen, and no-one is allowed to transact with them in dollars/yuan/ euros/sterling. *Some* of the Russian bond covenants have rubles as alternative payments, so they won’t be considered in default if they do pay. This is important if you’re holding CDSs to protect your bonds. With the threat of default hanging over the likes of investors like Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, and other major investment banks, Russia can reverse the play on the US pro-sanctions regime, and let the multinational investment banks pressure their governments to find a way to allow Russia to access its seized reserves, at least for international debt repayment purposes. I'm wondering why Russia doesn't issue debt repayment as notes redeemable with the sanctioning governments that are holding its seized foreign currency reserves. Like ""Here's a 60 million note that you can redeem from our seized dollars taken over by the US government"". Then the payment note/check would be denominated in the correct currency and technically not be in a default for being in the wrong currency. Russia isn't in the top 10 largest economies in the world. It has a GDP less than 10% the size of the US. Russia’s market-rate GDP in 2021 was US$1.65 trillion, enough to make it the world’s 11th largest economy, behind South Korea. If we crudely convert Russia’s 2021 estimated GDP by March 7, 2022, currency rates, rather than the average exchange rate used last year, and place it against the 2021 market-rate GDP table, the rankings change and Russia slides to 22nd place, falling between Taiwan and Poland. All I'm saying is that Russia is fucked. Yeah, but isnt the issue they have to repay in USD and not Ruble? I thought that was the problem. Are you that smart? They defaulted in 1997, that's why they have such low debt. They've never been viewed as a safe debtor, I don't think they've ever been above ""B"" grade. Imperialism and nationalism was huge driver for many nations, but most eventually left those in the past. I do believe that we Ukrainians and Russians are very similar with all our positives and negatives in all other aspects. And the only thing that is different between us: Ukrainians just want to build their own country, there are no ambitions to pretend we are more grand/superior/special than other nations. We just want to be an average, stable, democratic country. I wish for Russians to ditch this constant pretending that Russia is superior to others, and stop blaming others for “preventing” Russia from becoming superpower. Russia is nothing special. But it is perfectly fine to be just an ordinary but stable and civilized country. No one can fix Russia for Russians. I do hope this will be the time when they forget about national pride, and start to feel embarrassed and sorry for the things that happen when Russia tried to become worlds’ superpower. I know. Sanctions worked very well on North Korea. Sanctions target civilians. One should not shoot a hostage. Not really much of a consideration though is it? This money was borrowed a long ago, it’s not like they’re too broke to pay it, nor is it a choice not to pay. They can neither borrow more nor pay the debt down so does it really matter whether they’d prefer if the debt was some other amount? It's nearly ten percent of their entire GDP. And they have three times the population of California. It's nearly twice their entire military budget. It's not even close to being a trivial amount of money for Russia. Well , look. You are kind of making your views pretty obvious. You are either a Bulgar or a Serb maybe, and you are most likely pro authoritarian pan-slavism, or some other pro Putin Eastern European nationalist. You probably think either that gold or some crypto currency will win. You made the claim that the pregnant woman filmed in Ukraine is a “deep fake” and actually didn’t provide any evidence for it, not that the sad fate of that woman’s her child matters, since I know you believe it’s the Ukrainians who are attacking their own targets to frame Russians. Since you read a lot of pro Russian government propaganda I do not doubt you believe you are very smart and clever. But at least , if you believe something so strongly, you could be honest about what you really believe and maybe provide some sort of evidence occasionally. Yes you dipshit , that’s exactly what I referred as them doing botch toe! It's still an economic benefit from these assets that Russia would realise that they wouldn't do if they were properly frozen. Minor point- they likely do have the amount in foreign assets, but those assets are their most stable assets in Russia. They’re pushing the ruble payment because paying in foreign assets will bankrupt them of stable currency That was the question I was going to ask. Thanks for answering! Their reserves that have been seized will likely be used, hence the wage garnishing reference. Not at all. I wish I was though. It is just made so complicated that it takes only a genius to figure it out. I am curious what will happen when the next gazillionare not coughing up the next margin call on their gigantic short position that turns into a default on shorted US treasuries (a la LME nickel squeeze style), will they then rollback- or rollover the debts to a future date when it is then expected to be paid back? Or any exchange transactions above a certain value will be reverted? Or will they be liquidated? So, in case of Russian bonds: if Russian reserves are then frozen, how are they expect to liquidate after default grace period ends? Wil the re-grace? Will they liquidate? Will they rollover? Or let the investors hold the bag? I wonder. It doesn’t require a lot of intelligence to realize what a shitshow this will become. I will be laughing loudly at any outcome. Because any outcome out of this will be illegitimate and illegal, unless it is transacted properly. Seems you’re right and they never exceeded BBB+. Compared to other EU countries, with very few exceptions, they did not outperform. >I know. Sanctions worked very well on North Korea. Yeah, it did. Compare South Korea (no sanctions) to North Korea, it's a world of difference. And suing its due to communism is plain dumb, Sovjet as well as China achieved quite some progress under communist leadership (and, ofc, lassies horrors). N Korea only has horrors >Sanctions target civilians. One should not shoot a hostage. Tell that to the Russian military then, they've been doing it for *weeks*. And sorry to say but the Russian people are by proxy guilty for the actions of their government *unless they demonstrate or try to have Putin removed*, same as regular Germans happily let Hitler do what he wanted for far to long. Sanctions hur the elite, their money gets worthless, their factories can't export or produce, their crypto is locked and civil unrest is coming. *All it takes for evil to win, is for good people to do nothing*...sanctions make the everyday man start doing something. Russias GDP is 1.48 TRILLION (and thats during covid, higher I am sure ) they have to pay 150 MILLION not billion (at least right away) the 150 billion is the total debts owed across a gamut of deals they have done with other countries. their min payment is 150mil. 150 billion is as you said roughly 10%....of what they make in a Year. zero concerned, putin isnt either lol. Countries spend that in a month. Also when they default they well absolutely pay a fraction of that # to keep everything going with their trade partners (because the lenders rather have something than nothing). just watch. This isnt their first rodeo I feel really special for you man. You did a bunch of research on me. I am Bulgarian and I am not pro-russian. I don’t read russian propaganda, but am sick of US propaganda. This woman is fake pregnant and was covered by the west media very well. She was paid to do so. I don’t feel like I should give you evidence of what I am saying just like everybody else here in the comments and the news as well. I don’t think crypto would win, since I understand how crypto works. I also don’t know which currency would become next world currency, but am sure of that the IS dollar will collapse alongside NATO in the next 2-3 years. It’s only people from the US who are blind to see and read the facts, but I cannot unwash your brains unfortunately. Again - I feel very special that you did such a huge research on me. ✌🏻 > It's still an economic benefit It's not an economic benefit to Russia though. In no way (since they wouldn’t be repaying the loan either way). Also don’t confuse normal payment with enforcing security which you do to recover your own money and usually leads so significantly higher losses for the borrower Russia doesn't get any benefit - it has taken away from its what it owes. Creditors will seize the entirety of the amount borrowed as labradors says. They won't just take the debt payment. This is evaporate Russia's working capital to pay it's citizens and employees. It destroys the value of the ruple, and is generally horrible. Imagine if the USA had to pay all it's 20+trillion all at once and no one would lend to them. Social security stops, military payments stop, medicare stops. Total collapse I guess arithmetic isn't big in schools these days. Do you know what 10% of 1.4 trillion is? It is 140 billion. Your dispute of my statement that 120 billion is ""nearly 10 percent of their GDP"" seems to be kinda silly. And again, that is nearly twice their entire military budget for the year (which is 70 billion dollars). Saying that amount is trivial based on nothing more than your inability to perform the basic math functions to understand how much it is really isn't very convincing. Ok, whatever. I don’t really want your I sincere sympathy. When you say you don’t believe or consume Russian propaganda, but that you are “sick of US propaganda” I also get some immediate insights. I am of an Eastern European origin as well so to me a lot of the things you mention seem rather familiar. The difference is that I openly admit that I could be wrong about many things I may believe or views. I do not see any sense of doubt from your side. When you say you are sick of US propaganda, what does it actually mean? This immediately tells me and anybody reading our post exchange that you do believe a number of other things and that a number of them are conspiracy theories which by definition do not have evidence, otherwise they’d just be conspiracies. Why do I say that? For example because when I replied that he dollar will still be there you immediately responded by pouring on US propaganda when I actually did not indicate I support or give more credence to the American government. European countries who are geographically closer to Ukraine and Russia have their own very advanced spy agencies and their own interests. Your reply tells me that you’ll simply repeat from apologists for Putin say. When they are asked questions or confronted, Putin, and those who defend him ALWAYS frame their official problems with Ukraine as if it wasn’t even with Ukraine, or any country in the European continent. They immediately use a fallacious argument sometimes nicknamed as “what about ism”. They say “But! USA has no right to lecture us about civilian deaths in Ukraine! USA killed many people in Vietnam! Killed people in Iraq! Killed native Americans! Oh and those poooor Serbians our Slavic brothers!” But this is a non argument. All those horrible things the United States is guilty of, for sure! But it has nothing to do with justifying actions of Putin and his criminal gang. US is a horrible example and model to copy. But in your case you are also implying that the US propaganda is lying and therefore somehow Ukraine is also lying AND….. therefore you’re giving an excuse for Putin and you are validating what he said were the reasons for attacking Ukraine in a “special military operation” Russian people themselves. Especially the young people have been fighting with Putin in Russian society and through protest for DECADES so, sorry, but I will not assume that they are just some kind of American spies set up by CIA. If you had followed what has been happening in Russia through Russian sources that Putin does many absolutely horrible things ever since he has come to power, and he has destroyed any opposition he could have in Russia by jailing critics, assassinating journalists, banning organizations which want to discover information about Stalin’s orders to shoot people, who wrote a report on who etc. it was the organization Memorial Fund and many others which were banned. So when you somehow do exactly what Putin propaganda does with “but what about America?!” And “America is running everything” then I call your bullshit. DW, a German news agency, just over the last few weeks was running a documentary in which they show how horrible it was what the US did to Iraq. How they embargoed Iraq causing people to die. How the US government lied. How Bush lied etc. So when they all fully support Ukraine and bash Russia it isn’t the US who somehow , according to the conspiracy theory which arises here, making them all say what the US wants to hear. They have plenty of their own journalists in Ukraine and Russia and so far they have very few disagreements. They have enough credibility and self respect to find their own journalist reports. And besides when you try to say “the US propaganda, I am sick of it” ok. Fine. Then you are implying that currently most of the world is somehow under the effect of American propaganda. Quite a big conspiracy theory! So, I don’t believe your insincere claim that you don’t read pro Putin news or that you don’t believe some of their claims. Taking it away from what they owe is an economic benefit. If you owe £100 and now you owe £80 then you have gained £20. Now considering that to Russia the frozen assets should be worth £0, then by using them to discharge liabilities then they gain. obviously there is a huge benefit to Russia. It’s not as if their debt would be forgiven simply from not having access to a frozen account. Creditors want their payments, they don’t care about any extenuating circumstances. The entire bond capital wouldn't become immediately payable, just the interest 1. I agreed that 150 billions is 10% , I didn't dispute that. You just didn't read. 2. 10% of what a country produces annually is NOT a crazy # when you look at our spending as an example ( the last 5 years of several multi trillion dollar bills) we are debating whether or not 10%(150billion) is total worse case, end of world scenario for Russia as media is making it out to be to be, NOT the number itself. I think it will not be you think it will that is all. TLDR ✌🏻 By your very strange logic, we shouldn’t even ask them to repay loans at all? They owe 100, and they have 150 in the frozen bank. Then creditors seize 100, and their amount owed goes to 0, but their frozen assents goes to 50. They have the same net assets, but that much less working capital. Bc then the next 100 loan is due and they only have 50 left. Then that's a true bankruptcy Well, if they technically default, then it's possibly the whole loan could be seized. It depends on ToS. No, they should repay them with non-frozen assets Yeah but the magnitudes would be way off. It'll be more like they have 150 in frozen assets and need to pay 1 in interest immediately. Either way Russia still benefits by being able to pay down loans using frozen assets" Fed hikes interest rates by 0.75 percentage point for second consecutive time to fight inflation,1794,https://www.cnbc.com/2022/07/27/fed-decision-july-2022-.html,"Post report: 1. It's involuntary pornography and i appear in it As expected. No surprise is good news. How does this directly affect mortgage rates this week? -someone trying to get a loan tomorrow As someone who just started a career in Mortgage Lending, this sucks. So: When are consumers going to be able to earn 2.25% on their money in the bank? As somebody who has a positive net worth, it pisses me off that I earn essentially no return on money *I* am lending the bank. More coverage at: * [How the Federal Reserve's rate hikes affect your finances (msn.com)](https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/how-the-federal-reserves-rate-hikes-affect-your-finances/ar-AA102cZY) * [Fed to unveil another big rate hike as signs of economic slowdown grow (reuters.com)](http://www.reuters.com/article/usa-fed-idUSKBN2P20AA?utm_source=34553&utm_medium=partner) * [‘No good answer’: Fed set for big rate hike despite recession fears (thehill.com)](https://thehill.com/policy/3575467-no-good-answer-fed-set-for-big-rate-hike-despite-recession-fears/) --- ^(I'm a bot to find news from different sources.) [^(Report an issue)](https://www.reddit.com/user/MultiSourceNews_Bot/comments/k5pcrc/multisourcenews_bot_info/) ^(or PM me.) The comments here are grossly misinformed Yes raising the interest rate is the one of if not the greatest tool available to the fed to fight inflation. A lot of what is being discussed as potential solutions or causes of inflation I may not disagree with but these are policy concerns and policy actions not those of the fed Does this even do anything in the face of [9.2 million PPP loans](https://www.pandemicoversight.gov/media/file/ppploanforgivenessfactsheet20220pdf) being forgiven? A total of $664 Billion... free money for business owners. People already got their money. How is this curbing inflation? Really wish they’d carve out some sort of exception for families trying to purchase homes. Rate hike the corporate real estate investors. But why do I need to take a major financial hit when trying to find a new home. They tax the little man, but give 100s of million dollars to other country’s !!! WACK Very surprised. 75 basis points and not 100 -- I think high-inflation will be here for a long, long, long time now - like 5-10+ years. Why does it seem like the Federal Reserves only mission is countering inflation? Is that the only mindset to follow with our economy or capitalism? Fight inflation, or increase alongside it on cue? This more about pushing unemployment numbers up to raise in private sector unions. This does nothing to address the supply chain issues at the core of the current inflation. This pretty much wraps up what happened and is happening now and past two years, working class pays the price as always. The upper classes of this country raped this country. You fucked people. You built a castle to rip people off. Not once in all these years have I come across a person inside a big Wall Street firm who was having a crisis of conscience. Nobody - The Big Short Translation: Powell wants us workers to hurt, and go back to being good little slaves before he will let my crypto bag go up. You misspelled ""to fight corporate greed"" God we are getting screwed so hard. Okay dude relevant argument? [deleted] Lol. Interest hike to fight inflation. We dont give a qwack of what you think or feel. Inflation? Corporations are making record profits and raising prices lol Fuck the Fed Fuck the fed Glad I refinanced for less than 3% before all of these insane hikes. Rates are so high people want the pre-pandemic rates. Anything but pay increases. After they crush more businesses with the deflationary hike but before the debt gets too crazy the fed will go back to buying treasuries and Q.E. Then they’ll roll out the C.B.D.C. Then it’s hello, serfdom! 🤡🌎 A family of eight can't spend 10 billion in a lifetime but you have one man with 400 billion( inflation) [deleted] Fight inflation by making mortgages more expensive. Cool cool cool. [deleted] Yeah yeah… SCAM LIKELY Privately-owned ""Federal"" reserve just saved the day again! Exciting times to live through… cant print infinite profits if the loans arnt free anymore after you have a certain dollar amount 🥲 Anyone have a good read-up on what exactly supply chain disruptions consist of? We hear it as a common argument for this persistent inflation, and people also bring up China's COVID lockdowns, but there's gotta be more to it right? And the markets went up But wait I thought inflation was transitory? I’m surprised they waited so long on the first hike. To the moon!!! This is the most not news news I’ve seen in a while. Should focus isn the balance sheet It’s the third prime rate increase this year March, June, and July. There’ll probably be more. Source: I work in finance and loathe every increase. Why is screwing over consumers the only way to force inflation? Why are we the only mechanism they feel comfortable manipulating?? Break up monopolies, and go after price fixing and price gouging... So I have a question. Rather than increase interest rates, why not increase wages by incentivizing companies that pay their workers well or something like that? You got CEO's and the like getting millions in bonuses. That's so much money and what are they gonna spend it on? Even if the argument is that they earned it, that's still so much money for 1 individual. If the wages of everyone increased then these prices wouldn't hurt so much. IDK, just my opinion. I’m fiscally responsible and have no credit cards, mortgage, or car loans. Raise it to the roof. Sad for those without a home. That hike is 33% of my entire interest rate... This is gonna get ugly. Glta, let's go Brandon What happened to the 1.00 ? , just tells me the Fed is already pulling back on QT, so With maybe 2-3 more hikes by the end of the year (maybe .50 and .25) well only be at. About 3%-3.5% , still well below what we used to be like 5% before ,2008, a time with lot less inflation than today .. [deleted] You should play with an amortized interest calculator. Let’s say you’re buying a house today for $400k. You will be paying **$350k more** in interest than you would have a year ago, across the life of this loan. Said another way, you could have bought a house for nearing $750k last year at the same price. If you can, avoid taking on a loan unless you truly have to. ARM is the way to go if I were in the market I started in February. It’s been…. Difficult. lmao An AI can do your job ~~easily~~ better Ok but why would you start now? The writing has been on the wall for a couple of years now. Have some silver fam. Keep your head up Should have opted for the liberal arts major. Because you have to decline more people? Heh, get a real job you’re an idiot who started that career at this time. either you can’t read or you can’t think. I actually want to buy a house. Will you guys give more incentives now ? Start by strengthening your ARMs https://i.imgur.com/nldMfAy.jpg You can find GIC rates of nearly 5% on a 4-5 year term [deleted] You are at the wrong bank. > So: When are consumers going to be able to earn 2.25% on their money in the bank? i bonds (up to 15k)? Put your money in a CD... https://www.capitalone.com/bank/cds/online-cds It's also one of the only tools the Federal Reserve has. Yes raising the internet. I'm not sure how the internet deals with inflation. The point of rising rates is to slow down spending and new purchases in the economy. When money becomes more expensive, it becomes harder to get. So loans become more expensive. Credit card interest becomes more expensive. As such, people spend less in the economy which helps lower demand since their money is now tied up in higher fixed costs. As less money is spent in the economy, inflation drops. Now they can save that money to earn interest. ;-) They need to ban corporate real estate investing in residential homes altogether. Making it harder for you to buy a house is the goal. Housing prices have risen 15-20% in my city over the past year. The rising cost of housing is part of the inflation problem. Making housing more expensive reduces demand, which (hopefully) will bring down prices. I agree it’s an inelegant solution to the problem though. Personally with regard to housing, raising interest rates now will only drive up wealth inequality. Because the people who are going to stop buying houses right now will be people like you, younger Americans thinking about starting a family. But investors won’t be turned off by interest rate hikes at all, especially if prices come down. I think a better solution would be a graduated tax on corporations and individuals who own more than one house. More Americans deserve a chance to own their own home. Right now we’re seeing the rise of the corporate SFR landlord. Fannie/Freddie pricing for investment properties is much higher than a primary residence, but real estate investors aren’t using govy loans to purchase. States need to pass laws to limit transactions. Capitalism is working as intended unfortunately. but the fed isn't giving home loans out... The programs which occurred in the 2000s in pushing home ownership ended up putting many people in bankruptcy for not being able to pay the mortgages. I think you're instead asking that the federal government give out tax credits for family home buyers That is not as easy as it sounds... Further, the mechanics of ""rate hikes"" are a bit more complicated than ""now it is X%."" There's actual price action going on there, not just decree. That’s not what the fed funds rate does. While it does increase the Prime Rate which does impact some home lending products like HELOCs, it does not impact the MBS (mortgage backed securities) directly. In fact, following the fed announcement the MBS market rallied (rates lowered). That rally has softened in the last 45 minutes or so. And it will be interesting to see how the advance estimate GDP comes out tomorrow. General sentiment is that we’ll post an official recession, but Powell and the admin are pushing the message that we’re not in a recession. Home prices are also a part of inflation. Increased lending rates for homes will decrease inflation in the housing sector. This is why they can't. Unless the government wants to subsidize the loans for certain groups. Just banning corporate home buying altogether would halt inflation faster than raising rates. China and Japan have a practice called Window Guidance, where they give or lend banks money on the condition that they lend it along specific guidelines. These loans will have lower interest rates. The banks make their profit on the interest, and don't need to receive the principal to make a profit because the funds were given to them at zero or negative interest rates. The government could say ""only lend to agriculture, only lend to manufacturing, only lend to families purchasing housing below this threshold of income, etc. etc."" I think if done well it could be a benefit to the American economy, but I haven't researched it enough to have a strong opinion on it. To some extent, there is likely a form of this in the US. Then they live in it one year, move out and turn it into a rental property with a sneaky low interest rate. Get your point but just saying I can't think of a way to actually do that. Money is more expensive but the price of the house will come down. Ideally you'll be able to lock in a lower rate in a couple years when interest comes down. Homeowner socialist banking called Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the two biggest banks in the world, have already been subsidizing y'all for decades. Because fuck you, that's why. - Capitalism Because mortgage lending is one of the biggest sources of money creation. The money you borrow to buy a house came from ""thin air"" and thus creates a condition where inflation is more likely to go up. Or maybe let the market adjust and prices come down? No you want to keep trying to manipulate things artificially…. Cool FYI - wife and I bought our house at 13.25% in mid 80’s. Never a good time to buy, just need to sometimes go for it. Right?! This would be too much like right. But note they only enact policies to control the everyday person not companies that cause the problems. It’s called the Build Back Better plan lol Fortunately it doesn’t harm Blackrock or rich people from China, Saudi Arabia, etc that like buying up US real estate as a place to park money. We will own nothing and be happy. Mortgage interest rates are dictated by the 10 Year Treasury Yield, not the Fed Funds Rate. You shouldn't be affected too much. I think mortgages are based on 10 year Treasuries, which have been falling. No they need the cheap rates and no taxes or they’ll go buy houses in china! The problem in 2008 crisis is they couldn’t do that. But that is also the point. Slow the whole economy so there are no bubbles. Housing was certainly reaching a point of overvaluations and we had years of low rates for families to buy homes. But that increases housing prices so it never really helps. So monetary easing isn’t really a viable solution help families. But congress surely doesn’t seem to have any ideas. Because that’s not how this all works. The rate hikes don't directly affect interest rates for loans. Interest rates on loans to people are tied to how much investors are willing to pay for mortgage backed securities. Investors who buy those securities compare the risk/reward levels to all of the other things they could buy. That would do very little because corporate investors are less than 20% of the buying even at the peak (which is only a few percent above pre Covid levels). Not sure why people love to parrot that on this site and especially surprised in this sub. The reality is, cash was dumped out of helicopters and mortgage rates were kept artificially low for over a year. A bubble formed and they’re trying to pop it before it becomes systemic. It’s not the first time and it won’t be the last - the only constant is people always find a boogeyman to blame. You mean they give 100's of millions to billionaires and corporations and wall street while bleeding the middle class dry... I like the idea that 5-10 years of inflation rides on the July 2022 interest rate hikes… if they’re off by .25 percent the world is effed… like they couldn’t just 1% hike next meeting >I think high-inflation will be here for a long, long, long time now - like 5-10+ years. based on what and what do you mean? That every year prices will increase by 8-10% for 5 to 10 years? Why do you think it will last a long time? It also means people are going to be changing jobs more frequently to get inflation raises until companies bake in some sort of COLA. Who knew the 2020s were going to be this good? What does this mean for the high yielding savings accounts ? Currently max savings interest rate is 2 percent APY, will this take it up to 2.75% APY ? Isn't official Fed policy to target average inflation of 2%??? How are they gonna account for vastly missing target for 2+ years? Just ignore it completely as a ""transitory exception"". Fed and BoC still aiming for a soft landing, but likely that we’ll end up in a mild recession based on recent commentaries Don't worry they'll just change the definition of ""recession "" ""inflation,"" ""transitory"" until we are in a ""depression."" Didn't you know a little inflation and high gas prices are good for you? No one thinks the fed chair can fix supply chains with rate hikes, what are you on about? Yes, because with higher interest rates, the corporations are cured of greed. Inflation has nothing to do with interest rates, and the money supply, or government spending. That's just stuff the economists say. We need to have sociologists handling our policy. Because sociologists understand that inflation is caused by corporate greed. Don't believe me, just ask Venezuela's finance minister. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-economy/for-economy-czar-of-crisis-hit-venezuela-inflation-does-not-exist-idUSKBN0UL27820160107 What the hell are you talking about? This is good and gives confidence to the market that Fed taking inflation seriously. [deleted] The other side of the equation is slowing home price growth. Overall a good thing. I’ve got a pay increase the last two years. What What does this have to do with anything? Man you think there’s some group in control of all this? It’s not a marvel movie I think you are confusing mortgages with home prices. Since a mortgage is an injection of cash by banks into the system in the form of a large loan, cheap mortgages are a massive stimulus. The idea is that the economy needs less stimulus right now. The timing sucks if you are planning on buying a home, but the logic makes complete sense. In the medium term, home prices should decrease proportionally to mortgage rates increasing. Most countries besides the United States have much higher mortgage rates even in normal times. We have huge government subsidies that cause our mortgage rates to be artificially cheap and with very long terms. Explain or stfu. Federal in the name of the Federal Reserve is talking about the fact that it’s a federation (a group of smaller entities coming together) of regional banks. Each of the branches (Atlanta, Richmond, New York, etc) is a part of the federation. It doesn’t mean whether it’s public or private. 25% increase in corporate profit. SOME business legitimately experienced supply chain issue and had to raise prices. MOST other business just went ahead and raised prices as well, because why not? And now we have ourselve outrageous inflation alongside record corporate profits. because it was anticipated it would go up 1% Uh.... Can I get an ELI5 here, please? >What happens to the 1.00 , just tells me the Fed is already pulling back on QT Bingo, fed is signaling their fear and the markets smelled it immediately which is why stocks like amazon and microsoft shot up 5 and 7% today...they called his bluff and the fed blinked. There is no commitment to aggressively tackling inflation because the fed is unwilling to take it THAT far. Once unemployment jumps from 4% to 6% then will cut rates, market is forward looking and that is what it sees. .75 was expected by market. If it was 1 they would have said something 75 still on table for Sep unless cpi start looking better What happened is we entered a recession and one wrong move could send us spiraling down. Not sure why you’re mentioning 2008 as if that was better than what we’re witnessing now? Neutral has been trending down also so they need to be careful around this range - the number 15 years ago is kind of irrelevant. I don’t know who floated 1% but I don’t think that was ever serious. Unless prices come down in the near future in response to the increased rates and subsequent reduced demand. Right now you have a modest interest rate on a loan for ATH prices. It would suck to be underwater by a few $100k at a relatively high interest rate, but it's still better than 2007. I just checked US rates, it seems both fixed and adjustable are around 5%, inflation on housing is 10% ​ Can you explain me how you lose money due to high interest rates? I think you misunderstand the concept.. Unless rates are higher than inflation - mortgage MAKES you money not lose it. All that matters is financial liquidity and with adjusted rates it hits the most, because people cant pay their installments. Also high inflation and low unemployment means there will be pressure for raising salaries, which means your mortgage will devalue over time. The only reason not to take mortgage now is to predict huge housing crisis where people will not be able to afford mortgage and apartments will return to the market. I've read somewhere that 60% of housing is now in hands of wallstreet. I doubt they will default on that with all the printed money theyve got, low interest rates and shit. [deleted] As someone who also just did a deep dive on loan shopping today and am looking for a house, I’m leaning that way. I’m hearing that this is the first time in a while that ARM rates are now actually lower than the 30 or 15 year fixed rates you’ll find on the market. So they are likely to become more common. Especially for first time home buyers who may be looking to move again in 5-8 years. Lmao you are so wrong Quit Rest in Pepperonis Yes that’s worked so well for better and ibuying platforms LOL I mean getting through school can take several years. If you're going for a finance degree you're not going to change majors or quit halfway through just because of a poor economic forecast which may or may not even be accurate. Typical Dusty move I started in January. Still around the refi boom but that’s long gone Appreciate ya. That’s my first piece of silver/ gold on Reddit so ya da man✊🏻✊🏻✊🏻 Lol you sound fun at parties Starting a career during volatility is actually a wise move. When you start out in that business, you usually don’t make a lot of money early on anyway. In this person’s position, they will learn how to navigate a downturn early on, then they will have experience to be very successful during the next upcycle. It would be worse to start with just a few years of runaway then see a market correction. Just wait. Everything will crash and burn and things will be more favorable to buy. wait, what the heck is GIC? never heard of this before and i wouldn't say i'm a n00b. google is telling me it's Group Insurance Commission or Singapore's sovereign wealth funds, which don't seem right. Even at 2.9% that’s only barely keeping up with (historical) inflation rates I think we are limited to 10k per year. Right now some I-bonds are paying over 9%. Check out the treasury direct website for info I've read that raising taxes is also a tool to fight inflation. According to the MMT raising the interest and taxing the rich are the only two tools they have to fight inflation. This only impacts certain goods though that were inflated for these reasons. Other prices high due to global supply chain interruptions will be unaffected. Housing prices may reduce, but no reason to think your food costs will come down. Yes, add-in foreign investment as well. They keep saying we’re in a housing shortage yet they allow this. But how else will politicians stuff their pockets? This would cause an incredible housing shortage and be basically awful for everyone involved. specially foreign companies This should have more upvotes Yes, this is the problem. Never happen in merica This is not ideal policy, we need more supply in our housing system and large developers can build if we allow them to Or at least zone it to limit it Houses have changed from a store of value and a family incubator into an investment vehicle. No wonder there's a bubble every 15 years or so What financial hit are you taking ? >But investors won’t be turned off by interest rate hikes at all that's just not true haha but everything else you wrote makes sense A better solution would be to upzone every single family home exclusive area to allow for multiplexes and row houses at the very least. Exactly. What we really need is to loosen zoning regulations so we can finally build some fucking housing. Nimbys have driven up home prices more than anything My area is about 15% year over year over year......yeah so a good 50%, and that's a low cost of living area. Shit is respectfully nuts. As much as I'd like our home purchased may last year to keep going up, I'd rather prices normalize, so we don't have a hard crash [deleted] Populists want this, economists do not > To some extent, there is likely a form of this in the US. Broadly speaking, isn't that what an FHA loan is? This assumes the historically low rates will return. Looks like we're confusing human nature with ""capitalism"" again. Yeah, fuck you in particular. What did the house cost? You bought when homes cost 4x income not 10x, at a high interest rate which you then refinanced on better and better terms as rates declined over time. With hindsight, that literally was a good time to buy. I mean houses in the 80’s were like 90,000-120,000 for a decent home. I’ll happily take the 13.25. Would even out I think still less than what it is today. And people still probably making what they did in the 80’s. Sorry, can you explain why buying at a high interest rate is bad? Your ability to afford a monthly payment is based on your income relative to other buyers. Isn’t it better to buy at a high rate and refinance at a low rate when the value of a house rises to match the monthly payment of the average buyer? If you buy at the lowest rate possible and rates rise, you risk the value of your house falling and eliminating equity. FFR impacts entire yield curve Unfortunately it’s already gone up quite a lot. If we bought a house in early spring, the same loan amount today would be $500+ month more now That as well, but giving it to other countries that would never help us out in return; tickles my balls and not in a goo way. All they do is tax and tax us Yea that’s my feeling about all this too. Honestly the business cycle gonna business cycle but it might be nice to imagine we have real control [deleted] Cuz of the tingling in his ballsack. He doesn’t know, no one does 2020 - millions die due to COVID, happiness surveys plummet near record lows 2021 - more covid, supply chain problems, prices surge like crazy while unemployment is still relatively high 2022 - everyone has a job but we all take a 6% paycut on average and happiness surveys plunge back to record low, likely recession Wow I cannot wait for the rest of the 2020s. Wow, where is it 2.0? Amex is at 1.15% Not for a few weeks. Banks cut rates instantly on deposits but only raise them slowly. Back in ~2007 I have an Orange savings account that gave 6% interest… [yes](https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/banking/what-the-fed-rate-increase-means-for-savings-accounts) It would take some time to actually worm its way through the system, but it is what I'd call ""upward pressure"" on savings rates. These will be affected, however, by other factors than just the rate hike itself. Yes. Your APR will go up. Ever heard of sarcasm bro? Yeah, what's going on right now is awesome. I like how people are having to spend way more on things yet aren't taking way more home on their paychecks. Now mortgages will be even more expensive for people that don't have cash. So cool! the fed Me too but I earned them. There are still too many underpaid citizens in our country and no justification for it. It’s like we’re all paying taxes for rouge military spending. If the fed really wanted to fix our economy it would, but it’s not in their best interest. [deleted] No it is privately owned. It used to cost you $1 per year to borrow $100, now it costs $3. This is a high cost compared to the past decade, but still lower than 2008 when it costed $5. So people are less likely to borrow money to open their lemonade stand. Because it costs more to borrow money, the fed is hoping this will slow down the amount of people trying to open lemonade stands, or buy wood, sugar, cash registers, or cups to support said lemonade stand. This increased cost to borrow money should reduce demand for all these goods, which should lower prices for the goods. If demand for these goods goes down, then the price of them should also go down. I’m sure you’ve noticed that prices for lemons, wood, cash registers, and sugar have all gone up recently, so hopefully this expected drop in prices will offset the inflation we’re seeing. This is the *intent* of the fed’s move. Hopefully it will pan out how they are planning. I’m sure I fucked up the explanation so anyone, feel free to correct me. Edit- thanks for the awards This is the truth, but realistically the Fed really can't raise rates the amount necessary to combat inflation, since it would tank debt markets , so it's a big juggling act. ... Where they've been dropping the ball recently. > Once unemployment jumps from 4% to 6% then will cut rates, market is forward looking and that is what it sees. Correct me if I'm wrong, but even just moving from 4-6%, which 6% is still healthy, that'll help drive down inflation? I seriously doubt that,.with midterms and a recession, I think we've got peak QT. or 97, or 87 or 77 or 67 or even 1957. Marry the home, date the rate. If you find a place you like that’s affordable, don’t wait. Mortgages are loans. You pay a bit toward the principal and an interest fee. Last year interest rates were 2%. Today they are 6%. All of this cost is the interest which you **pay annually**. You lose money by paying a bank 3x the fee you would have 365 days ago each year. On a large purchase, like a $400k home, this interest goes from $8k per year to $24k per year. This is for the **same exact asset**. Across ten years this $160k more. Across thirty it is $480k. If you think paying $480k more for the same thing is smart, go for it. Note: this assumes someone isn’t paying an additional amount into principal and that they aren’t refinancing when rates change a decade out. I don't see how those two correlate. > Especially for first time home buyers who may be looking to move again in 5-8 years. That's exactly why I mentioned 7/1. The average house ownership is around 12 years or so but younger or first time onwers definitely owns for shorter. Plus the 10/1 doesn't really bring that many savings, to me personally. This sub has quality posts but also mixed with basement financial advisors, so use your own judgement. Definitely check if there's cap on increase and refi terms. But in all likelihood, if you are young, you will sell it before the rate expires. Yeah, I’m looking for work. [deleted] This guy gets it. > If you're going for a finance degree ...you probably don't have a focus in ""mortgage lending"" so there are dozens of other more profitable opportunities open to you. A finance degree to do a sales job? Literally i get what you’re trying to say, but this is pretty far from a party. I get you’re saying starting in a bad market *could* set you up for better times, but there are a ton of assumptions you’re making and history disagrees with you. how about just admitting starting in a garbage economy can lead to a garbage future more often than not? History agrees. Guaranteed investment certificate Basically risk free bank certificate typically fdic insured (or similar) Kinda like a treasury bond but from the banks [deleted] This is correct, $10k per year. Currently at ~9.5%. Raising taxes isn't the feds' tool. The fed only handles monetary policy. Raising taxes or increasing spending are fiscal policy. That's not quite how it works. You and I notice it more in these goods because we transact in them more frequently, but rate hikes affect the cost of the dollar at its base. Since the dollar now costs more to obtain (it's stronger) then the value of commodities that you'd exchange the dollar for, let's say fuel, will drop. The same way that you and I use a mortgage to buy a house, ExxonMobil will issue a bond to drill a new well and McDonald's will issue commercial paper to help fulfill payroll. As you might guess, this tends to be not good for the economy. The Fed isn't concerned with the economy though, a poor economy is less damaging and easier to fix than hyperinflation. Absolutely- require a min amount of residency for these purchases by foreign investors Absolutely- require a min amount of residency for these purchases by foreign investors Absolutely. Additionally, and this is a part of it nobody wants to deal with.... immigration needs to be looked at as well. We aren't building enough homes to keep up with legal, let alone illegal immigration. Might not be what people want to hear but its a component and pretending it isn't won't make the problem go away. Absolutely- require a min amount of residency for these purchases by foreign investors Hopefully with rocks before jumping in a lake With further inside trading tips on the stock market that all of us would be put in jail for. Insider trading like they already do lol I should have specified... Purchasing existing homes to retain, not building new ones. When inflation is 10% and interest rates are like 3%, people with access to capital will continue to buy lots of investors pay cash so they dont need to worry about interest rates since there is no loan. Hedge Funds can buy all cash, why do they care about interest rate hikes? > that's just not true haha Most of the investors I know buy with cash. A 0.75% interest rate hike isn’t slowing down any investor’s home buying spree, at least none of the ones I’m talking to. A recent report said that in my county last year, 52% of all SFR sales were purchased by corporations. I expect that number to go up next year. And it’s a serious problem that deserves more attention. Zoning should not be done at the local level, way too many perverse incentives. FHA stands for the Federal Housing Authority, not the Federal Reserve that raises or lowers the Fed Funds Rate. The Fed Funds Rate is the interest rate in which the Federal Reserve lends to banks and that is the interest rate that was increased by the Fed. FHA loans are loans that are insured by the Federal Housing Authority, not the Federal Reserve. It has nothing to do with the Fed. You're quite wrong here. I have heard of FHA loans I don't support the government subsidizing most housing loans just to be clear. Sadly, politics is more geared toward populists than academics. Most people don’t understand the whole concept of working for what you have. House was about 5x income including spouse. You sure it’s now 10x? I can get a house at 5x in my area with a combined income of $100k today. Exactly! I refinanced couple times all the way to around 5%. Friends of mine bought at 15-16%. I thought they were crazy. But as the interest rate dropped , the house prices increased I see I’m getting down voted but so be it, I’m just explaining my economic scenario that I experienced. https://www.stlouisfed.org/on-the-economy/2017/october/increases-fed-funds-rate-impact-other-interest-rates ""In contrast, the interest rate on a 10-year Treasury bond does not appear to move as closely with the fed funds rate. While there appears to be some co-movement, the 10-year interest rate appears to follow its own declining path."" Keep in mind that 30 year mortgage rates are tied to the ten year treasury yield. The yield on the ten year hit its 52 week peak last month. This was before today's rate hike. Can you explain why the ten year yield has been going down the past week, which in turn causes mortgage interest rates to go down? Actually, can you explain why the yield went down 20% from its peak despite the Fed continuing to increase the Fed Funds Rate? I would rather give it to ukraine to help them defeat russia than to bezos so he can built a yacht that will never see the ocean. Just gonna go out on a limb here and say some of the top economists in the world have a better grasp on this than you, the average redditor, do. Ah yes I forgot inflation reports are the only thing the fed looks at when making rate hikes… I’m sure the clear demand destruction seen in the commodity market had no influence over their .75 decision… I personally fear a deep recession caused by raising rates too fast than inflation… maybe that’s naive but inflation has clearly peaked if not just locally Damn millenials 2024: world war 3 I just opened one with Bread at 1.64 Currently? Just 4 banks have over 2% APY. See this list: [https://www.doctorofcredit.com/high-interest-savings-to-get/](https://www.doctorofcredit.com/high-interest-savings-to-get/) I keep getting emails my interest going up im like fuck yeah ahha Bask bank is 2% and Citizens access is 1.75% Like the inverse with gas prices. Quick to shoot up but slow to come back down. Back in 1990 I had a term deposit account at 21% for 12 months. It was an awesome way to make money. Yep, I won the championship at the 1987 Sarcasm tournament in Peru. My entire post you just responded to was sarcasm. Please explain how the Fed can raise the pay of citizens. I disagree, but you have cogent, intelligent thoughts behind your comment, and for that, hats off to you. The biggest driver of inflation worldwide currently is the War between Russia and Ukraine. Both are linked heavily in Oil production, Gas Exports, Wheat Export, and Feed Export. Those 4 products/product types are all utilized in producing inelastic goods. With that being said America doesn’t have that issue in the way Europeans do, but will feel the price push for everything priced internationally. Onto the point of issue; The FED can only do 2 things Manipulate the overnight lending rate and it’s overall balance sheet. The real scam is Government ineptitude as that is the only institution that has the power to make decisions that have any modicum of effect on the problems stated above. I’m not arguing that it’s publicly owned. I’m telling you that the word “federal” in this context doesn’t mean government owned. It’s just talking about the branch structure. I'm sure many people appreciate you. Thank you for your service. Awesome breakdown, can you do one on the global pandemic induced supply shock? Eli5 like a boss. Damn, I had no idea lemonade stands were the sole cause of inflation. Next time I see some kid open one in my neighborhood I am going to report him for not having a business license. Doing my part to help the economy! /s That's what they want you to think the intent is... Except that inflation has already started to prove out/ deter consumer spending. Which I imagine has something to do with not needing to raise interest rates above that 3.5% target I think I’ll be safe, demand for my donkey shows is always up thanks to lonely service members This all hinges on the lemon, wood, cash register, and sugar companies lowering prices eventually - instead of just keeping prices high and making even more money than they already are. You're also leaving out that existing lemon stand corporations see less demand too, so they are closing under performing lemon stands. Those workers are noe available to go work at McDonalds or Ice Cream trucks, which previously couldn't fully staff for the past few years. Nope, but 4 to 6 becomes 6 to 8 real quick, and 8 to 10...market knows the fed will act first Exactly, interest rates are still pretty low, historically. It's hard to time the housing market and life doesn't really wait, so if you can afford the pricing today of a place you want to live with a reasonable projection of your future ability to pay, then do what is best for you now. I like this But if you don't pay today, you gonna pay 800k more in two years. I told you, stop looking back, it doesn't matter. You'll only lose money by holding with mortgage as long as interest rates are below inflation. That's simple math idk what you don't understand. [deleted] Well the leader in digital mortgage space cancelled its plans to go public and cut staff from 10K to 5K so I’d say there’s issues. Yes because mortgage lending is the only job you can do with a finance degree..... If I had a dime for every sales guy in finance I'd almost make as much money as sales guys in finance Jokes aside, from commercial lending to advisory, sales is everywhere and often hides behind different names What history are you talking about? Many bankers and people in the RE industry who were able to break in/start during the GFC are extremely successful now. not seeing anything like that available w/ fidelity or bank of america. where can they be found? Sorry. Apparently, I either can't read or am severely lacking in short term memory since I replied from my phone and didn't see the parent comment while I was typing a reply. Point still stands: 2.25% only kinda-sorta lines up with average inflation rates between 2012 and the end of 2019. The 2.9% rate (which I mentioned in error) would only barely exceed the average inflation rate during that time. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think the regular cap is $10k per year, *plus* up to an additional $5k that can be purchased as part of your annual tax refund. And I think trusts and companies can each buy $10k per year in I Bonds. Note: Please take everything said above with a grain of salt. I’m not an expert and am probably wrong. Yes. I agree to that. Bruh if natural-born US citizens with above-average white and blue-collar jobs can't afford a house, I'm not really sure how you're thinking a bunch of poor illegal immigrants are affording houses lmao. Illegal immigration is probably not part of the housing shortage issue. The problem is not generally unavailability of houses or apartments. There are enough empty houses and apartments in the country to house everyone. The problem is affordability. Part of the affordability is due to the slow down in the production of new houses/apartments. Big part of that is due to all of the wildfires in CA driving up the cost of wood and building materials, as well as labor and supply chain hiccups during COVID. The other part is investors buying up houses, which artificially spikes the prices, probably above what their actual value is. Immigration, legal or illegal, isn't driving either of those things. In fact, to the extent that illegal immigrants often work in timbering and construction fields, having them here producing building materials is probably a steam valve that is helping more houses and apartments get built, keeping prices from being even higher. And most of them are not buying houses, for which you'd need to get a mortgage, which puts you on paper and therefore subject to ICE scrutiny. Most of the guys I've known get an apartment with 9 other guys and sleep 3-6 to a room, work their asses off, send the money back home, and go back themselves when they've made enough to take care of their families. And I respect the hell out of those guys, who are only doing what generations of immigrants have been doing in this country. I don’t see it as an immigration issue. It is all about rich foreign investors that are looking to park their money in US real estate as rental investments or second/vacation home properties. I am officially changing my affiliation to macguffin party or just get in a barrel and fill themselves with cement It’s not illegal if you’re rich or in power. Only for poor fucks. but interest rates are higher than 3% right now to borrow Any investor buying real estate in cash is a moron. Yields are like 4% in a lot of assets, buying that unlevered is stupid. What actually is happening is they buy “cash” then take out debt after closing. A lot of major real estate investors/companies utilize debt and have a lot of it on their balance sheets. Investors may pay cash but most often get loans on the back end. It’s almost always beneficial (and amplifies returns) if you can take on cheap leverage, effectively making money off someone else’s money. Just because they have the cash doesn’t mean they consider it desirable or efficient to use no debt of course they have to worry about it. And most investors do NOT pay cash. They are all highly leveraged as you make a lot more yield by borrowing (or an internal rate of return). And they have to worry about it if they want to offload into another asset. If the rate of return is higher to invest in say a government bond (much less risky) they then very much care what the interest rates are. The value of their assets go down. Can confirm. Or they get loans specific to construction which have low interest rates for the 3-6 months they hold the asset during the flip. They make no principal payments and just wash the loan when the property sells. Investors already established in the game don't care other than a worry about being able to sell the house they flipped. But with inventory as low as it is they really don't need to worry so they are going full steam ahead until supply catches demand. because the value of what they are purchasing goes down if they could have invested that same cash into something much more safe (government bond - guaranteed rate). Because it’s inefficient to use your cash if you can borrow someone else’s cash. It’s still a finite resource and you could buy one property for X or 3 properties for X/3 each, paying a few percent in interest. Potential for way higher returns if you use debt responsibly, and almost every investor will try pretty hard to find financing before going 100% cash. That’s not to say they might wait for a loan to buy; they might pony up the cash up front and then get a loan on the property after buying it. Tons of fancy things people do in this space I think that’s how it’s done in Japan Nothing wrong with what you did, just that low price / high rate (then) and high price / low rate (now) aren't equivalent. There's nowhere to go with a huge cheap loan. It's the ""never a good time to buy"" comment that rubs folks the wrong way. The FFR still impacts the entire curve. You think that they’re using every single dollar to defend themselves? They’re politicians who probably steal that foreign aid as well! And bezos is rich as hell, but he didn’t ask for no bailout the banks did! Smh homeless people and kids that need home right here in the USA Powell himself said they don't understand inflation (remember transitory), just that they know they have the tools to kill it. But maintaining price stability is their only mandate at this point. A jobs market at top reading means they don't have to worry about other aspects of the economy yet. A recession, preferably a deep one, is exactly what's needed to kill inflation. Powell knows this, because Volcker is his hero. And regarding peaking... that's what everyone said after each and every CPI reading for the past year. In the words of chair Powell, ""it's time to retire that word"". Avocado is also expensive!!! And run by the cartels Drugs... Correlation? Yes millennials cause this You skipped a year. No. Welcome! Sure. When Covid hit, almost every industry slowed or stopped production. So the guys across the world who grow your lemons, harvest your sugar, make your cups, all stopped doing what they do, because we all had to stay home for those 2 weeks, and then it was super slow getting started back up. The guy who grows your lemons, for example, he needs things to grow the lemons. Stuff like fertilizer, tractor parts, etc. But those guys *ALSO* slowed and stopped their production. So the lemon growing guy now has to wait on the steel producer to make tractor parts, which go to the lemon guy, who makes lemons, and sends them to you. But hold on, the steel producer needs coke, metallurgical coal, etc., in order to make steel. So now your lemonade stand is waiting on coal to be delivered to the steel producer, who can then send steel to the guy making tractor parts, who sends tractor parts to your lemon grower, who can now send you lemons. *But hold on*, the steel producer needs inputs as well! Edit: INCLUDING LEMONADE FOR THEIR WORKERS TO DRINK!!! FUCK! Do you see how this is a never ending merry go round that *everybody* is on? Basically every part of nearly every industry all slowed down at the same time, and they all have to ramp up at the same time, too. They’re all waiting on each other to deliver. Johnny, Jimmy, and Jenny run a lemonade stand where Johnny picks the lemons, Jimmy squeezes the juice out, and Jenny sells the lemonade. They run a tight ship so no lemonade is stored in the stand it just goes straight to the customer. Jimmy had to go to the bathroom so Johnny just stopped picking lemons while Jenny was still taking orders. You then had a bunch of people expecting lemonade but after Jimmy got back he wasn't able to keep up. Since there's no extra lemonade stored in the stand everyone is stuck waiting for Johnny and Jimmy to fill their orders. Meanwhile Jenny keeps hiking up her prices because fuck Jenny, that duplicitous bitch. Thanks! Lol middle class 5yr olds will be the death of us! Yes, correct. Yup, that was another externality that I didn’t cover in my comment. I was trying to keep it as ELI5 as I could. According to npr this morning, consumer spending increased in the past quarter. Weird fuckin times rn. # #donkeyjobsmatter The best we can hope for is that this slows the constant march toward higher prices. Prices actually going down could be a bad thing in some circumstances. Marry the house. Date the rate. If it goes up more, you win. If it goes down in the future, refinance. No, house prices will not double in two years. The housing market crashed this quarter and will keep crashing. No, you will not “only” lose money as long as inflation is high, as the remedial algebra I shared illustrated. You will lose hundreds of thousands in additional fees. You are the exact sort of idiot the market loves. Slow and hilariously ignorant of how slow you are. Invest all of your money in loans and see how this works for you! There is a distinction between a predatory loan and a reputable lender's ARM 7/1, did I suggest the first one? And you can always refinance when deemed fitting. How about assuming OP is making general financial decisions based on his own mertis and advise accordingly. Stop giving irrelevant advices because you watched a documentary. Also have you been in the mortgage market lately? The banking industry have been extremely cautious, better safe than sorry for a while. Plus in layman's term the 08 recession was built up on the huge pile subprime lending and predatory variable rate mortgage was only one trick among all, and the leveraged derivatives played a vital role into magnifying the crisis. Even if we had been in an recession already, it wouldn't be the same cause. [deleted] You are correct This. Buying blocks of properties with corporate bonds or other means of cheap commercial leverage and then renting that inventory out is the ""long game"" here. It also sets up a clash between the poor and the middle class since both have to compete for the same rentals. This market just sucks for household formation and thus population growth (or even replacement). We're going to regret all the alpha seeking in a generation or two... Well they aren't all ending up on the street so they must be sleeping somewhere. Allegedly it's common for substantially more of them to occupy rental homes than is typical for Americans. Government subsidies…they can afford more than American citizens. Well said. !!! For example, the dollars they send back to México , is the second largest income for this country, just a little bit behind oil revenue. We source ten times the amount of timber as measured in bf from Canada than California produces. California timber fires are not a major contributing factor to home prices. We simply cannot restrict building multi family housing nearly everywhere in the US, especially in California and simultaneously allow corporations to buy housing with near zero interest loans. As long as interest rates are low and zoning laws prohibit construction the working class is harmed by the same institutions you hope will protect you. Unfortunately, the working class doesn’t have a PAC. Lol well we have a big tent. Everyone who hates politicians. Agreed. Can we be co-founders? No they arent. Not for even a single maturity: https://www.bloomberg.com/markets/rates-bonds/government-bonds/us They are leveraged with other investors’ money >They make no principal payments and just wash the loan when the property sells. but the property will be worth less because the next entity buying will be leveraging their purchase with a loan. Construction loans are still impacted by rate hikes, are more expensive than mortgage-flavored loans, and for most ground-up construction projects will get refinanced into a more traditional loan as soon as construction is over (sometimes even during). Almost all investors want to use (cheap) debt, regardless of whether they can pony up the cash up front How is the rate of return even close to that of a bond when they can basically force most Americans to have to rent their houses instead of own for perpetuity? Have you seen rent prices? Do you think these houses are ever going to be sold to regular people again or groups of them will be packaged up and sold to other Hedge funds and PE. Slowly they are taking large chunks of single family homes permanently off the market. We really need to put a stop to this as soon as possible or we really are going back to serfdom in just a generation or two. And over there housing is viewed as a depreciating asset similar to a car. That’s how things should be. Yup. Like buying stock - you’ll never hit the high to sell or low to buy. If you can’t afford it then no doubt you can’t buy. But it’s my opinion that if you can afford to buy at a hi rate, then it may be the time to buy. I’ve read house sales are slowing up. Time will tell if they drop in price. There's correlation. Not causation. Why are mortgage rates going down if the Fed is raising interest rates? You haven't answered my questions. He doesnt need to because he doesnt pay taxes! THATS THE BAILOUT. And yes, I am confident that ukraine is not embezzling the weapons we are sending them. And if you think the homeless in the US needs help, then why arent politicians helping them? Theres plenty of money for it. Maybe call them and ask. The fact that you keep electing people that only help themselves and corporations is no excuse for us to sit by and do nothing. We don’t talk about 2023 … You make the internet better. This is a very easily understood explanation. Do you have a YouTube channel or something that I can subscribe to? I’m in international shipping and I’m stealing this to use for some of my dense clients. Keep doing what you do! Meanwhile people still want lemonade so prices rise and wages need to go up which are sticky so they cant fix it with increases because its not demand like 2008, but supply this time so we get high prices and even less ability to borrow so human suffering increases. I would just add that some companies said “Wow this seems bad, I can’t afford to pay my lemon farmers” and let skilled labor go so now that they’re ramping up those farmers are retired, working new jobs, or wanting a raise before they come back. This is more of an example of the failing of JIT inventory schemes. There’s no discussion of how your business is reliant on other businesses across the world. I’ll have to read it later. But if you read it, did consumer spending increase in value? Bc if it did then we could chalk that up to inflation. The statistics would need to be broken down into categories. E.g. housing increased, purchasing of gunny bears decreased. Basically necessity spending is up on inflation and wants are down I'm betting house prices are going to fall back to 2019 levels in the next 12-18 months. Not in all pockets of the US but in a majority of locations. Real Estate market has been white hot and seems to be slowing down. I think we are starting to see the cracks and a correction isn't a bad thing. Lots of people married a house at a ridiculous markup. I hope those folks keep their job or at least have a significant savings account if we hit a real recession because otherwise they are going to be taking a huge loss of the economy tanks and they can't afford their homes. Better.com So unless you see them all homeless on the street, there is a problem? Do you hear how fucked up you sound? Illegal immigrants generally do not receive government subsidies. In large part because receiving most kinds of government benefits requires a SSN, which they don't have. And it requires putting their address on paper, which is an invitation for ICE to come knocking. Illegal immigrants tend to provide a net surplus rather than deficit. They come here and generally pay taxes through a TIN, including withholdings for social security and medicare which they will never be eligible to collect on. All while doing the jobs that Americans generally refuse to do, at pay Americans would refuse to accept. I'd love to see a source on this! In what world can you claim government subsidies without a green card or SS number? This is complete and utter brain rot of a comment. Honestly, I wish my people understood how much our countries have in common, and were willing to admit how much the US relies upon Mexico. Though I think the admission of how much the US relies upon Mexico would invite the scrutiny of how much the US exploits Mexico and its people. Which is why the US instead takes the stance that it does. As a first generation American, myself, I have nothing but respect for the people who venture far from the place they were born to try to make a better life and help their family. It is one of the redeeming things about the US, that people have the opporutnity to do that. Your response prompted me to read more about this. I knew that prices of wood had climbed dramatically during the pandemic. I had read that this was due in part to wild fires in CA (which, to be fair, also made it to parts of the PNW including BC where a lot of timbering does occur). But reading more now, I guess another culprit is the Dendroctonus ponderosae, or the mountain pine beetle. [https://qz.com/1985276/america-is-running-short-of-wood/](https://qz.com/1985276/america-is-running-short-of-wood/) Thank you for the information and prompting me to learn more about this. I feel like I should have known, having family connections to the PNW, some who live in timbering regions. I agree on the rest of what you said. And ultimately the main point, which is that undocumented persons, who are also all working class, are not causing the housing shortage. people with access to capital are borrowing from financial institutions and those interest rates are higher than 3% But the housing supply has kept the value of homes steady even as interest rates are rising... For house flips the interest costs are negligible. We are talking about a couple hundred a month difference in costs. Totaling 1-3 grand on a 250K purchase which is going to get flipped at 325K? Sure it eats slightly into margins but from what I've seen the flippers are just increasing their final sale cost to keep the same ROI metrics. This isn't rocket surgery and the costs associated with home flips, interest isn't a large contributing factor at the moment because of the supply/demand issues overshadowing any interest rate hikes we are going to see in the foreseeable future. That’s correct, hence why I said it still impacts it. The feds rate hikes are already priced in unless they do not come in as expected. The end of the curve is also impacted by other global macroeconomic outlook. There’s a reason you can’t get a jumbo mortgage at 3% anymore. My point is the politicians will always look to get more money, Elon musk paid 11 billion last year. The issues isn’t taxing more citizens, it’s that they spend to much money!! Thanks! I made an edit to the OC that brings the merry go round full circle. Hope this helps! Not really. This is just how I think about shit. You can follow me on here if you want. Be prepared for petty arguments tho lol Thanks! I mean, it's ELI5 so I tried to make it as simple as possible. You could talk about how each stop in the chain got shut done, you could talk about how shut downs are still occurring, you could talk about how the one dude that makes microchips shifted production away from microchips because global demand was reduced, and then sharply replaced itself. I chose to go with the last one. Johnny In Time? This is a truth. Working at my job, I have to explain to my bosses who are used to JIT parts and equipment that due to the supply chains and lack of labor, projects will be delayed and not everyone will just drop what they are doing to help a random outfit with a small thing. They don’t comprehend the big picture that we are just one client of many. [deleted] Watch CNN much? Try Google Only in the good old US of A The truth hurts sometimes, hate it offended you The proliferation of NIMBY (not in my my backyard) local ordinances have made much of the available area that could be developed for residential housing to be zoned for only single family homes. It’s actually very frustrating for me to observe because governments create these scarcities and the people demand the government solutions and it seems to me if less people relied on the government we’d all be better off with a less obtrusive parasitic entity that has endless cash for foreign wars and always claims it’s broke when the people negatively impacted by their policies simply ask for relief. Obviously, there is a spread dependent on the borrower's creditworthiness. The gap between the risk-free and inflation is currently over 6% though ffs... At a 6% spread, they are borrowing risk-free in real terms. 6% is monstrously high Jumbo rates aren't tied to the ten year. But jumbo loans aren't what we think of when we think about families struggling because of higher mortgage interest rates. Also, interest rates went down again today. The yield of the ten year took a significant hit today following the news that GDP shrunk for a second quarter. Wait, are you suggesting that corporations and billionaires shouldnt be taxed? I'm not even saying tax them more, but they should pay something. I pay out almost 40% of my paycheck while corporations and billionaires pay almost nothing. It they paid what I pay we would have all the money we need to solve everyones problems. Stop defending the people who are stealing from us. You are truly Hippy. Goodsir, may you be blessed with all awards on reddit. So when life gives you lemons you develop a plan of micro and macro economics into easy explanations for the general consumption? As hippy engineers go, you're pretty cool! Just in time. Meaning you keep minimum stock on hand and the new stuff shows up just in time. This is cheaper than stockpiling in most situations. Then Covid happened. Well all the AI centric iBuying companies have been getting decimated too. It hasn’t been good for real estate tech companies No. Just went to law school much. And practiced public benefits and tax law much. And know what I'm talking about in terms of what is required to receive federal benefits, and why, in general, undocumented persons are not willing to apply for them. Much. But I don't watch CNN. I don't have cable and don't really watch television. Do your own legwork to back up your fantasies. Translation: “I’m talking out of my ass, don’t want to do the work to cite my sources (likely bc they don’t exist), so I’ll just refer to the almighty Google as if that somehow absolves me of the responsibility of passing my bullshit opinions off as fact.” It’s not truth if you can’t cite your sources. The truth isn’t your sad attempt at a witty retort. The roots of it go back to a legacy of racial discrimination in housing and access to financing of home purchases. It isn't a new issue, just a new iteration of an old issue. You should check out Color of Law, and Evicted. Both pretty essential reading for understanding housing policy and how we got here. Sounds like we’re in agreement No I am not the get incentives because of the amount of jobs they produce. I am not defending them, but I get it. I also get that they lobby for the politicians who will help them out the most. I make around 65k and I hate seeing my check get taxed just because the government wants to be daddy and try to save the rest of world. We don’t have a tax problem we have a spending problem! Thank you! Nailed it. Thanks! Thanks. Got that. I was making a stupid joke. Tbf homes aren't mortgages, certainly they share many things in common but mortgages are much more liquid than real estate, with less transaction costs to cover Undocumented immigrants don't so much bring benefits to a population moreover an employer. Certain employers are more apt to hire undocumented immigrants for their low skilled labor and low pay rates, as well as their willingness to move to camps or work in remote communities. The citizens of the nation still endure tax burdens, crime problems, and of course housing. The benefit of having undocumented labor in a city is that it is cheaper than the citizens living there and opens opportunities for employers to pay below a living wage. How do undocumented kids go to school? Do they all attend private schools and pay for them? It was literally [the first thing](https://cis.org/Report/63-NonCitizen-Households-Access-Welfare-Programs?gclid=Cj0KCQjwxIOXBhCrARIsAL1QFCaF7bLs0kwIKXcB_a8jCxH3tKX7za7YsaRTAo07X1HDRph6Q7z0Jv8aAkLdEALw_wcB) on google I’m sorry if you sit around and want everybody to do the work for you. But that’s par for the course nowadays. Lazy piece of shit. Nah. I mean, despite inflation I can go out and buy a quart of strawberries for $2-3. I can get a restaurant meal for $12-15. And even though the price has swelled since June of last year, I can't imagine what getting a new roof or new fence or other construction work would cost, in general, if it did not rely upon the labor of undocumented persons. I don't like the system that exploits undocumented workers or uses undocumented workers to crush labor organization. But I recognize that I do materially benefit from it and am complicit in it. I think most data bears out that it is, overall, a net gain, not a tax burden. Undocumented workers pay more in taxes than they take in benefits. As far as crime goes, I don't think that there's much evidence that as a group, they commit more crimes than any other group. News stories about when one person from that group commits some headline grabbing crime shift into a narrative that I don't think there's good evidence to support as a general rule. In the first several years of my legal practice, I worked in criminal law. The vast majority of undocumented people I saw were there for administrative crimes involving not having driving licenses (which they were ineligible to apply for, being undocumented). Occasionally there would be a public intoxication or a disorderly conduct, or maybe a DUI. But not at rates higher than the rest of the population, and honestly, it seemed like a lower rate. The vast majority of undocumented people I ran into were here to work, and they literally had no free time to get into trouble. And most of the arrest data I've seen suggests that undocumented people are around twice as unlikely to commit crimes than the rest of the population. I think, in large part, because if they get caught on a misdemeanor, they get indefinitely detained and maybe deported rather than the day or two in jail that a US citizen would get. It depends. Quite a few of the undocumented children age 13 and older will often work with their parents in agricultural or restaurant industries. Though most undocumented people don't bring children here. It is usually younger men on their own. Accounting for school, most of the data indicates a year to year 12 to 1 ratio in terms of what undocumented workers provide in tax revenue vs. what government benefits they receive. And most undocumented workers are, again, taking jobs that would otherwise not be filled by American workers. As a person who is pretty intimately familiar with most kinds of public benefits, I will tell you that it is pretty darn hard for fully deserving and eligible US citizens to access many kinds of benefits, even where they are disabled or otherwise eligible. The idea that undocumented persons are utilizing these benefits at a rate that creates a net loss simply has no basis in reality. It’s actually the opposite. I do the work to know what I’m talking about so that when I say something, I can demonstrate it. I don’t feel threatened because I know I’m relying on fact and can back it up precisely *because* I’ve made the effort to research so I don’t look foolish. Thank you for taking the mature route and resorting to name calling to deflect, though. Edit: words Not sure what we aren’t agreeing on? The curve doesn’t move a lot when the FFR is changed because the market’s already priced in the rate hike. The end of the curve is impacted by FFR and macroeconomic outlook. You make it sound like organized slavery. But in all actuality, they get free healthcare, free schooling, etc. If it was truly as bad as you state it, they wouldn’t be coming here in groves. Why is the curve heading down when the FFR continues to increase? You don't think that perhaps investors are moving their money to treasuries because of economic contraction? If you're saying everything is connected, sure. A low FFR and loose monetary policy causing the economy to overheat putting us in this economic situation making interest rates go up? Okay. But I guess I can say pandemics affect mortgage interest rates too. Maybe I can make the case that weather affects interest rates as well. It isn't a coincidence that the roles previously occupied by enslaved Africans and their descendants, mostly agriculture, construction, cooking and domestic work, are now filled by undocumented workers who get paid considerably less than what the market rate for those jobs would be if only American citizens or LPRs were hired. It was exploitation then, and it is exploitation now. And white people hated and resented the people they were exploiting then. And a lof of them hate and resent the people they are exploiting now. Which is why there are narratives of how undocumented people are just lazy and taking advantage. Which are the exact narratives a lot of white people had about enslaved black people, in part as a justification to keep them enslaved. And regardless of what anybody makes it sound like, the fact is, undocumented people pay more into the system than they take out in benefits. Substantially more. I think you mean droves. Groves generally refers to a group of trees, connotation of cultivated or curated. And most people come here to work hard and make money. Usually doing the hard labor jobs that Americans won't take, at pay that American workers wouldn't accept. Or, if the jobs paid substantially more enough that Americans would take them, the goods and services produced would be too high for American consumers who are used to cheap goods and services (cheap on account of lower labor costs) to be willing to pay. What do you think a quart of strawberries costs you if you have to pay an American worker to pick them? Or what do you think a restaurant dinner costs you if everyone in the kitchen is on paper? People don't come here because of benefits. They come here because of capitalism. The same reason most other European-descended people came here. To work and make money and make a better life for their families. And you rely on them more than they rely on you. Yes both the FFR and macroeconomic outlook impact the end of the curve. We’re both saying the same thing. GDP estimates are being cut… this will cause rates to rally (go down) as investors take off risk. The FFR is going up yet long term rates are going down because the market knows that rates are going to go up (hence being “priced in”). “And you rely on them more than they rely on you” Speak for yourself. I am, in part. Because I eat fresh fruit and produce, go to restaurants, live in a house that was constructed in the past 20 years, and otherwise live in a society where there are cheap goods and services that are in part produced by people who work for substantially less than American born workers would demand to be paid. And presuming you do those things and live in society, you rely on those people too. Whether you want to admit it or not." U.S. Inflation Hits New Four-Decade High of 9.1%,1785,https://www.wsj.com/articles/us-inflation-june-2022-consumer-price-index-11657664129,"Ah, what a great time to be alive. Cant read article due to inflation a WSJ subscription now costs $4,000 a month Man, I just got a new job in January with a really nice pay bump. Just in time to watch that pay bump dissolve into inflation. FUUUUUUUU Can someone point to me to a store where groceries are only up 9.1% so I can shop there? When month over month inflation outpaces your annual ""cost of living"" adjustment... They need to rip the bandaid off and go a full 2-3% to kill inflation in its tracks. All of this could have probably been reduced if they went with a full percentage initially and not some half hearted half a percent We seem to be around the same rate as most of Europe. Everyone’s feeling the pain. 100 bp July, 75 August and 50/75 September Why is the USD getting so much stronger compared to other currencies while inflation is “running rampant?” Damn for what should be a relatively sophisticated sub y’all just a bunch of doomsday eat the rich nerds. It's transitory Everyone thats on minimum wages is getting destroyed by inflation that brings high food prices and high gas price How do these people survive the coming years? Monetary policy is the single most important factor of inflation. Inflation is the % Change in Money Supply-% Change in Output (GDP). In general, GDP % change is minimal (5% at most) while Money Supply changes are enormous (Up to 25%, even higher). Therefore the % change in output is insignificant to inflation. Only the government controls money supply (prints money). Only the government can cause inflation by spending more than it receives, necessitating the printing of money (increase in monetary supply) and inflation. Since 1940, our government has run an annual deficit in almost every year. Someone has to pay for that deficit, and it ends up being the American consumer. That is the cause of inflation. In 2022: Inflation was: 9.1% measured by CPI (Consumer Price Index: Price of bundle of goods today/Price of bundle of goods in base year) % Change in GDP (Predicted): 2.6% From 2020-2021: % Change in Money Supply was: 27%, largest in US history due to COVID stimulus Divided by 2 for annual: % Change in Money Supply was: 27%/2=13.5% It is important to note that change in Money Supply does not have an immediate affect on inflation. It takes time, generally 2 years, for markets to react and change prices. Therefore we will use 2020-2021 Money Supply data with 2022 CPI numbers Inflation = % Change in Money Supply-% Change in Output (GDP). 9.1% (2022) = 13.5% (2020-2021)-2.6% (2022) As you can see these numbers fit almost perfectly. In the modern era, the Fed mainly controls money supply by manipulating interest rates through the discount rate (interest rate for money loaned to banks), and not physically printing or creating new deposits in digital ledgers. What is an interest rate? An interest rate is the cost of borrowing. Interest rates are reflective of the actions undertaken by the Fed. The Fed does not determine the interest rate, it takes actions to manipulate it. Only the money market, interactions between Money Supply and Money Demand, sets interest rates. The Fed can affect money supply, and as a result, interest rates: * By setting bank reserve requirements * By setting the discount rate * Via open market operations The manipulation of these variables affects the rate that banks borrow from the Fed, interbank borrowing rates, and consumer lending rates. If interest rates are low, the cost of borrowing is low, and banks will lend more money to businesses and the government (through loans and bonds). This stimulates the economy because more economic activity is occurring. If interest rates are high, the inverse is true. Source: https://www.reviewecon.com/money-market2/money-market-increase-supply1 In this graph we see the supply of money (MS) and the demand of money (MD). Money supply is perfectly inelastic (vertical line) because the Fed controls the amount of money supply in the economy through operations discussed previously. Only when there’s a change in the Fed's policy can the money supply curve can shift either to the right or the left. When Money Supply increases, moves to the right, and Money Demand stays constant, the equilibrium (intersection) interest rate (Y Axis) is lower. The inverse is true. We can also see here that interest rate is determined through interactions between money supply and money demand, not the Fed itself. Source: https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/06/15/fed-hikes-its-benchmark-interest-rate-by-three-quarters-of-a-point-the-biggest-increase-since-1994.html As you can see, the federal funds interest rate (interest rate for money loaned to banks), has been almost 0% for a while. This is a direct result of the Fed’s actions to increase Money Supply to stimulate the economy (full employment policy) and pay for federal deficits. But things are changing. Congress realizes the party is over. It has become politically favorable to stop inflation and the Fed has responded by shrinking the growth of money supply and thereby lowering inflation. This will cause a recession because the growth of money supply will decrease while inflation (CPI) continues to rise for about 2 years. Then inflation will start to fall. Inflation is like alcohol, the good effects come first and the bad ones later. Its tempting and politically convenient to continue inflation, through stimulus, to put off the bad effects that come from inflation for a while longer. But the next peak of inflation and unemployment will continue to rise until the cure is taken. The cure (reduction in monetary supply growth) is the opposite, the bad effects (recession) come first and the good ones (low inflation, high output) later. Only when things get bad enough, will Americans have the political will to take the cure and the short term losses that go with it. The Fed knows inflation is bad. Every Federal Reserve chair has preached the merits of restraint in monetary supply growth. But at the end of the day, the Fed is beholden to the budget and spending Congress has approved, even if it goes against basic economic principles. So why do politicians always encourage inflation, despite the fact not a single one has run on a platform to increase it? There are 3 reasons politicians increase money supply (print money) to finance deficit spending (inflation): 1. You have more money if you print it 2. Printing more money raises taxes by moving people into higher income brackets 3. Inflation makes the government debt easier to pay off because each dollar of debt is worth less in real terms (% of national income, GDP, etc) when inflation occurs Find a graph of money supply per unit of output (Money Supply/GDP) and CPI (Consumer Price Index). You will see they line up exactly no matter the country, time period, or government. I have attached one below. Source: https://www.americanexperiment.org/magazine/article/misunderstanding-inflation It is no secret what causes or who benefits from inflation, the government. Naturally they are the last to admit it. Until we vote representatives that are committed to slowing monetary growth, inflation will never stop. History tells us people are only willing to take the cure, reduction in the growth of monetary supply while inflation rises (Monetary Supply reduction takes ~ 2 years to kick in and reduce inflation rate), otherwise known as a recession (less output, less employment) when annual inflation is above 20%. In 2022 in the USA it was 9.1%. Runaway inflation has been the death of so many societies and often ended in tragic ways. (Ancient Rome, British Empire, post WW1 Germany, WW1 Russia, Yugoslavia, Brazil 1960, Chile 1980, Modern China, etc.). I can only hope we take the cure before revolution happens as it did in these places. Source: https://youtu.be/0uyqBnkPoK0 More coverage at: * [IMF Cuts US Growth Forecasts, Raises Jobless Estimates on Inflation Risks (bloomberg.com)](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-07-12/imf-cuts-us-gdp-raises-jobless-forecasts-on-inflation-risks) * [Jobs Growth Is the Savior of Inflation-Wracked US Economy (coindesk.com)](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2022/07/12/jobs-growth-is-the-savior-of-inflation-wracked-us-economy/) --- ^(I'm a bot to find news from different sources.) [^(Report an issue)](https://www.reddit.com/user/MultiSourceNews_Bot/comments/k5pcrc/multisourcenews_bot_info/) ^(or PM me.) Question. The Dow Jones and S&P futures indexes dropped following this news. Does these futures refer to next months (August) index prices or what timeline does it refer to in response to June’s inflation increase? Save your money kids, we will go through a hard recession. A pandemic then reliance on foreign trade, a war in Europe and poor leadership. I’m not a huge finance guy but I seen something yesterday that if it was above 8.7% that’s really bad right? Could someone point me to where I found find more about that Not chill God bless union contract negotiations uwu How does anyone at the US FED still have a job? Their target was 2.5% and we’re at 9.1%, even considering the intentionally flawed metrics to arrive at that number. If this were a company posting consecutive earnings reports of 30% losses every quarter, quarter after quarter, why would we keep them around? [deleted] The powers that own the worlds financial institutions have an agenda. Agenda 2030. They plan to collapse the US dollar hence the obvious intentional inflation they created. Then there goal is to usher in a one world digital currency that can be tracked and monitored by a small group of psychopathic globalists to enslave you. Wake up Allegedly it is already higher than that and we are being eased into it bit by bit until they mention 14% so are we gonna tax the rich or bump up interest by a percent. seems like something significant should happen 9% my ass. If you buy food, pay rent, pump gas, or pay utilities, your inflation rate is more like 20%, thanks to the economic illiterates, crypto-socialists, and progressive activists manipulating Biden Election have Consequences. Ukraine could use a few billion more Get woke, go broke 🤷🏽‍♂️ Aka, why progressive monetary spending on social policies instead of infrastructure is a recipe for disaster LGB And that’s just the number they reported. You know Biden called up and said “keep it under 10% guys, please, I’m trying to win a re-election here” Everyone and everything is to blame for it except Biden /s Throughout the next few weeks the stock market will almost assuredly be completely fucking decimated. You've all been warned Does everyone think a 0.75 bps will happen from the Fed, or is this 9.1% a lagging measurement? I feel like the effects are “on the street” already…gas is cheaper, I can get things on sale again, I can negotiate with vendors again, etc…. ESG and radical climate change policies will make everything much worse Big companies have seized on inflation to jack up prices more than necessary. If Trump was President right now it'd be all his fault. Glad it's Biden as president and it's not his fault at all 81 million votes though..... The most popular President in history though.... Thank you Mr. Biden, remember this come voting time. Biden and his shit policies taking effect and we’re seeing the results. Once gas goes up, everything behind it goes up as well. Who do you think is paying for all these truckers to fill up with high gas prices!? That’s right, the consumer. This administration is the worst we’ve EVER had with Biden/Harris. Remember this come voting time! America is sitting on soo much oil to drill we have enough for 300 years! But Biden is too stupid to drill for it. [deleted] And the market is trending towards closing green. Unreal. cost of woke warmongering Thank you greedy capitalist for playing with our economy so you can have a bigger wallet Anyone sees the fraud of the CPI calculation? Why do we pretend the CPI means anything? I picked the best possible time in history to increase my rent payment by 3x and move farther away from my employment 😭 Global Recession on the way. Nice with my last raise it’s only 5% inflation rate 🙌🙌🙌 The only thing stonking this year is the CPI. Can't we just blow something up to reduce prices. Wen fed pivot? We all know it’s way higher 9.1% is the year over year number. 1.3% annualized is 15.6%. More of an OfficeMax person? Hopefully it's temporary Hope everyone takes care of their loved ones, it's gonna get rough for alotta ppl At least we have good memes [deleted] Count your blessings if you live in the US. Or $1.83 in 2020 dollars, lol. The alternative being no pay bump eroding further toward poverty… so… bullet dodged I guess! That's what I'm feeling too. 80k is the new 60k. Sad :( Same got a 25% raise this year feels like nothing even changed Join the club. I got a 7 percent raise in September 2022 before my contract ended. I did not get to enjoy that at all At home food prices are up 12.2% but even that is probably not a good indicator of your actual experience because certain foods are not going to be as popular and will not change much in price as compared to staples everyone buys. Time for monthly wage negotiations, honestly my 1 year is coming up end of the month going to swing for 8% but looks like that would still put me a in a hole >.> smh Inflation is calculated as year over year, not month over month Life is good It’s funny because a lot of this is due to energy issues, rate hikes probably won’t change much. Maybe cool down so it doesn’t get out of control here, but there’s no way we’ll see deflation without energy prices going down significantly. Impossible. Inflation peaked in March. /s Or, ya know, not printing an extra 2 trillion and proping up wall street with it 😅 That’s just not true. How do higher rates fix covid in China or a war in Ukraine? You can only curve demand so much. [deleted] Someone’s been watching a little too much CNBC and in an echo chamber. That won’t bring the price of oil down. Housing market has already cooled because of the earlier hikes. Unless they can wave a wand to end war and fix global supply chains there’s not much to do. The US is bankrupt on it's sovereign debt at 4%. Go take a look at the decline in Tax Receipts. That method works great when debt to GDP isn't asinine. We don't have that luxury. Powell will do as much as he can, but he won't allow himself to be the guy who gets demonized for causing a national credit default. I think that and restarting student loan payments would murder inflation How would that fix a 10% increase in food?? Make the economy so bad that people need to skip meals? Maybe collapse an EM country or 2 so more can be diverted here? I just hate how stuck in theoretical models and theories we are about this instead of looking at the real world Given that most commodities are global, and it's energy and food that's causing the inflation, why should we (US / Canada) sacrifice our growth so the world can have slightly cheaper prices? * The rise in core prices reflects that fact that everything uses gas or oil to produce / transport. **Selfish thought game.** Please explain if the big picture is completely wrong. Let's assume a situation where Canada (much smaller than the US) is in a depression, its spending dropped 50%, and people barely buy food. Does food get cheaper? Marginally probably, the rest of the excess went to the US and UK and everywhere else. Meanwhile, the Canadian economy takes 100% of the damage. Conversely, if the gov keeps the rate at 0.5% or 1%, we continue to grow our wage / economy at exponential speeds to try to match inflation. If our currency doesn't devalue fast enough compared to the rising labour cost, just print more money to fund infrastructure and long term capital projects. Or even better, use the money to invest in other countries. Let other countries take the hit by rising interest rates to combat inflation. 2‐3%? Try 20٪ The economy totally and completely shits the bed if they do that. This current era of ‘high inflation with solid consumer spending and good unemployment numbers’ ends and we move into an era of high inflation, depressed consumer spending, and high unemployment. Money printing alone isn’t driving this inflation. Raising rates doesn’t end Covid and the aftershocks of the Covid shutdowns, undo the economic damage of the Ukraine war, bring down global energy prices. The only reason they havent done a volcker style attack is because our over leveraged economy would go into depression. Even a 200-300 bsp hike would send markets into complete shock. Our system is so beyond messed up right now. The deflationary shock from a 300 point rate hike all at once would crash the economy Jack up the rate too suddenly and you get higher unemployment. The Fed has a dual mandate and has been prioritizing unemployment. Someone go dig Volcker up Fed doesn't meet in August USD is the reserve currency of the world. In times of uncertainty, the dollar is strong. Inflation is rampant throughout the world, the US dollar is still more reliable than other currencies. Another factor is everyone all over was printing like mad to get their economies through covid and honestly the US was not the worst ratio wise. Because everyone was printing like mad, and most of those countries were printing even harder and faster than the Fed was. It's reddit, there are tankies everywhere. I think the frenzy is just spooling up as more get closer to the shredder that is pay check to pay check living. Working for years to be comfortable and watching is all erode away is tough Wonderful explanation. Thank you. Great post. People are soon going to start realizing the government can’t afford to keep the money printers on forever. Incredibly well written and informative, thank you sir Without reference to a specific date you can assume “futures” refers to the front month which is (I think) [September](https://www.bloomberg.com/markets/stocks/futures). But the month isn’t really important. What they are saying is that before the release of the data the contract settling in September traded at X and then after the release it traded at Y, and you can assume that change was related to the data release. The reason they look at the futures isn’t because they are futures *per se* but because people are trading futures when the data comes out and the stock market isn’t open at that hour. Does that help? Bro, target inflation is 2-3%. Yeah. 9.1% is catastrophically bad. We know. Who? Who is “sort-of-elected-if-I-changed-the-rules-for-my-own-political-purposes group of dipshits”? Vague comment and super specific guess at the number, smh ""allegedly"", ""they"" do you really think the folks at the labor dept pull this number from thin air based on what is politically expediant? for sure it was higher, I know it's based on a basket of goods but my COGS jumped 30-35% in the first quarter How will taxing the rich slow demand and bring prices down? Sure, there will be less yachts sold, but I just don't see the relevance. How will taxing the rich bring down the price of meat and gas? It literally started under trump lmfao Do you think the American election is what’s affecting oil prices in England too? Imagine being this fucking stupid How do you think we got the inflation in the first place? Trump sending out a stimulus check to everyone, providing hundreds of billions in PPP loans with lax repayment policies and qualifications, or injecting trillions into the financial system? Take your pick. Right. Because of Joe Biden is president of the world lmao. Almost nothing has been done during Biden’s administration. What social spending could possibly have been done? What social policies are you talking about? Bullshit Blame Biden for what? This shit started the end of 2020 under the 1 term failed president Trump. Biden inherited his shit show. Had Trump handled Covid better we wouldn’t be in this mess to begin with. Screenshot those SPY puts my guy. No it won’t. You heard it here- sell low buy high!! That’s true. Unfortunately, this will be followed by the far more catastrophic effects of climate change when the policies fail to prevent it. Why don't you just take personal responsibility for losing purchasing power If you actually think the current situation was caused by one person in the past 1.5 years, then no amount of talking or reasoning will help. You know he can win an election and be terrible at the job y’know. They’re not mutually exclusive. You serious? You actually think Biden caused the oil prices to go up around the globe? Wasn't most of the inflation driven by oil companies refusing to meet demand and instead let prices rise to give more money to their shareholders? Almost every business requires transportation in one way or another. I hate Biden but you're giving a complete pass to greedy corporations exploiting crisis among a myriad of short sighted profit seeking habits. You’re an idiot if you don’t think Trump helped contribute to this shit. It all started 14 of 2020. Bro, this is the responsibility of the Fed. Do your research. https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2022/01/27/oil-gas-leasing-biden-climate/ You’re a fool The only thing biden did was cut back on new oil leases in his first year, which he then movies forward within a year Reddit little commies downvoting ya 😂 Where did you get that “300 years of oil” figure? https://www.worldometers.info/oil/us-oil/ [Those are all included](https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cpi.t01.htm). Rent is 7% of the index (including imputed rent for homeowners it’s 33%). Food is 13% of the index. Energy is 9%. Government over stimulating the economy has caused inflation. Supply disruptions have pushed it to hyperinflation. [deleted] yes communism and socialism does such a better job of resource allocation [removed] Inflation protected bond market is pricing a [projected 2.5% average CPI](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/T5YIE) over the next 5 years. No way there's five years over 5%. Recession and demand destruction would put an end to that What did we expect would happen after the Federal Reserve printed over 80% of all the money it's ever printed in just over two years to combat the economic damage from covid? Raising interest rates for everyone will only do so much to mitigate the inflation. The USD losing its value at a rapid rate is inevitable from over-printing. Is there any sort of claims to back any of this up or is this just how you feeling? Your saying gaining 5% for the next 5 years >Just a reminder that inflation will be over 5% for the next 5 years. Your money already lost 16% of its value, well it’s gonna lose 25% more over 5 years. 1 dollar will be worth 60 cents. That kind of inflation usually happens over decades. This is ridiculous. IDK who is upvoting this, but they definitely don't have a background in finance or taken a basic macro 101 class. How do you reconcile that with the fact the dollar has gone up Not down? [https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/index/dxy](https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/index/dxy) Dammit, good point God I wish I could be sad about making 80k. When I graduated in 2009 from highschool in 2009, I thought a 100k salary was really making it. Crazy how times changed. I don’t have a 100k salary nor is 100k what it used to be lol I’m not that big of a fan of eating staples Got 4% by contract in March of 2022 to begin in July of 2022. New mayor coming in soon and the union is already batting for an amendment to jump the COLA to match inflation plus our 4%. Likely to happen since staffing is at 40% of required and response times are increasing - easy to argue for a good COLA when the city is scared of losing an entire agency due to union strikes. > going to swing for 8% LOL! Good luck with that. First line of CPI report. ""The Consumer Price Index for All Urban Consumers (CPI-U) increased 1.3 percent in June"" I agree that supply inelasticity and energy are responsible for a lot of inflation at the global level, but I simply cannot understand how some can look at US household outlays spending down the savings pile and conclude that it is not a substantial contribution to current US inflation There is a big lag of years between oil prices and fracking for more oil. The price of sand for fracking has gone way up so more oil production is starting to come online. Also you comps won't be so drastic in a couple months. On the flip side, inflation did just go up over 1% month over month. Thank you. It’s as if you looked at the actual data and did a little analysis as opposed to sharing your feelings at circle time. Data. https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cpi.nr0.htm Comment from BLS points out how much of this is energy: > The increase was broad-based, with the indexes for gasoline, shelter, and food being the largest contributors. *The energy index rose 7.5 percent over the month and contributed nearly half of the all items increase, with the gasoline index rising 11.2 percent and the other major component indexes also rising.* The food index rose 1.0 percent in June, as did the food at home index. It’s shocking, but you almost think there was a war going on that has reduced global oil supply! [deleted] Andddd it was transitory. I mean tbf ratio wise we did not do too terribly compared to the rest of the people printing like mad. Feel a huge reason the euro is now in pace with the dollar is cause they pulled the rip cord harder and faster than even we did. Granted yeah we could have done more with the money People seriously think this is due to money printing. It is a little bit but the bulk of it is the ongoing energy crisis and severe production stalls from supply chain problems. Can’t solve the big issues with rate hikes. People are really majoring in the minors on this one. Academics have no clue how the real world works. Business leaders understand that overcomplicated math is not how you run things but since the Fed governors have never worked at a real company in their lives they rely on books and models. I mean canada was having economical issues even before the pandemic makes sense to get more aggressive The Bank of Canada was making the same nonsense noises as the Fed about inflation being transitory. >Bank of Canada already said fuck it, the Americans are too incompetent for us to follow along and has been handing out some big hikes. LOL, typical Canadian copium. Source: I'm Canadian. Like the other guy was saying, BoC was making the same noise about inflation as the US Fed. And as a non-reserve currency country, BoC HAS TO outpace the US Fed in raising rates anyway, or CAD gets fucked. Canadians and our holier-than-thou attitude is a fucking art. Is outstanding debt variable, I was not under the assumption it was. Most of it is fixed percentage t notes. Raising rates only affects new debt Do you have a source on the 4%? Can’t find it online Yes! That and Medicaid redeterminations. Both lower income and college educated people would have less disposable income which would help curve inflation. (*while we are in a public health emergency (which we still are) people who qualified for Medicaid back in April 2020, got a nice paying job in April 2021, still receive free health insurance until the PHE is over and Medicaid reduced their roles). It worked in 1981. Ugh…. It doesn’t work that way. “Just print more money” is the root of the problem, not the solution. Rip to a legend, he’s rolling in his grave watching this shit show Honestly we need that kind of bravery about a year ago He could not do anything at this point anymore even if he was here. Emergency meeting time So why all the fearmongering about rate hikes and capping wages when we actually have plenty of room to increase wages Also, oil prices denominated in dollars. Yeah I wish Reddit had full-fledged profiles where you could see a user’s age. A lot of these tankies are edgy 19-year-olds who know nothing about economics That helps thanks! Yes I understand that but I seen somewhere online that if it's above 8.7 % , then this will happen. Believe it meant interest rates were going up , just not too sure on the details [deleted] Having worked in a government bureaucracy where numbers are massaged to meet expectations and management demands, yes. Yes, this is exactly what is happening. [deleted] U.S. consumer inflation rose to a new four-decade high at an annual rate of 9.1% in June, extending a year and a half stretch of persistently higher prices the fact that people out there still think that means we are following this through. just enjoy the ride, my thick headed friend. [deleted] U.S. consumer inflation rose to a new four-decade high at an annual rate of 9.1% in June, extending a year and a half stretch of persistently higher prices You down vote the article. Now that’s funny All of that stimulus money was drafted and approved in bills by congress. The president only has the power to veto a bill when it comes to federal spending. Neither recent president sent out helicopter money, it just happened during their terms. Congress and Fed policy are what screwed us, the president is just a figurehead. You think this is all because of Biden. I said elections. You see the (S). How cute are you. Uneducated but cute. You know how it goes, their boogeyman Biden is simultaneously futile old and senile, yet has the power and capacity to pull strings like that…. Shit is laughable how far in the rabbit hole they are. Nope, truth. I know, it’s tough to take off the democratic rose colored glasses at times and see reality (I.e. statistics that haven’t been adjusted, realizing there’s only two genders and science is real.. you get the idea) Was he supposed to listen to Pelosi and Biden who were calling early Chinese travel ban racist? I have no spy puts lol RemindME! 21 days What? Don't you remember when Biden passed the global gas price increase initiative? Oil is a global market and we are the biggest demand driver. And we were increasing demand through loose access to funds. Pretty basic ""Would there be any place for fossil fuels, including coal and fracking, in a Biden Administration?” CNN’s Dana Bash asked during a primary debate in July 2019. No,” Biden flatly answered. “We would work it out; we would make sure it’s eliminated and no more subsidies for either of those. No more fossil fuels.” Yeah he doesn't control the price of oil but he sure as shit has only exacerbated the issue. Gas was up over a dollar during his presidency before the war even started. Pretending Biden has been at best a non-factor in oil prices is living in delusion. Here in America YES!!! Day one of his policies of no drilling and look where we are 2 years later with him! Price of oil has gone up like 30% world wide but here in America 100%+ Then why the fuck is he begging for oil right now in Saudia Arabia? Not government, corrupt politicians bought out by corrupt capitalist did this Corporate profits at a 50 year high with this high of inflation yea it’s the greedy capitalist taking advantage of others End game capitalism seems to be the worst Increase in makeup and dresses costs correlates to a decrease in drag according to studies [deleted] The inflation protected bond market stopped being a useful information tool starting in March 2020. I haven’t checked in on it recently, but between March 2020 and March 2021 they purchased more TIPS than had been auctioned by the treasury during that same period. This is part of the application in expectation theory being executed at the Fed. If markets are driven by expectations, via policy manipulation of those expectations you can guide the economy toward your policy goals. We are witnessing the limits in application of those theories. I don’t want to knock on it too much, the integration of human psychology, sociology, and market theory has shed light on some important relationships, but like any new toy (real or intellectual) the new trendy thing tends to get over expressed. To heavily weighted in discussion and policy. Regardless, the inflation adjusted market is muddied at best, pure artifice at worst. [deleted] Haven't TIPS always been limited to $10k a year. How can you get 'real' price discovery when there's such a low limit? I understand why there's a limit, i.e. the government would be getting absolutely hammered on that deal right now. The stagflation of the 70s/80s would like a word! Austria and Germany have also around 9% inflation, but we didn’t print dollars. Have you seen the USD vs other global currencies recently? They are all losing value but so far others more than the USD This is bullshit and you know it based on other comments yet you still keep it up Better hope the mayor doesnt like pepsi I got a 21% raise after a year at my current company. Thankfully, it’s not a US-based corporation, otherwise I’d be hearing about record profits and maybe a 1-3% raise instead. The hardest part is I got 25% raise 9 months ago that I asked for during my 90 day assessment. But I am fairly sure ill get it I know what the top earner makes they will at least match that but honestly going to shoot for a 12% raise and min hope they counter with 8. My ace up my sleeve is I am the only one who will work a very lucrative contract for them and they wont want me to even think of walking since I am sure they make 2-3 times what I am paid per hour I am out there. u/ebitda7 is right. CPI = market basket of desired year / market basket of base year x 100 [https://www.uvm.edu/\~awoolf/classes/spring2005/ec11/calculating\_inflation.html](https://www.uvm.edu/~awoolf/classes/spring2005/ec11/calculating_inflation.html) What does corporate savings look like pre-pandemic and now? And, pray tell, where are we going to refine all that ultra light/ultra sweet? Part of the problem on the US is that while we are producing quite a lot of shale oil, the problem is that it’s too light and too sweet for most the refining capacity in places like the gulf. Many of those refiners retooled in a pre-shale era where they thought we’d be using more heavy sour- like the stuff from Venezuela and Russia. https://www.marketplace.org/2022/03/07/why-do-we-import-russian-oil-when-theres-lot-u-s/amp/ Of course because prices have just recently gone down, doesn’t mean we’ll see deflation, it needs to be for longer and more stable. Everything takes time to settle in. What’s happening right now is just consequences of the past months. Narrator: It was not And limiting the supply of goods by shutting down the economy while printing 4 trillion dollars won't cause inflation. Also, Modern Monetary Theory says we can spend whatever we want without any negative consequences. Shouldn’t have printed the money Yes, all the PhD economists at the Fed have no idea what they are talking about. They should just come to r/finance for the solutions. ​ I'm no economist but you don't think that printing over 80% of the money the federal reserve has printed in existence in just 2020-2022 will have a significant effect on the value of the USD? Look at Weimar Germany's money printing debacle. Economists say we are going to be fine and won't end up needing to buy bread for $30, but the only measure we have is raising interest rates. And we are already seeing inflation rates picking up speed. Most of the inflation right now may be from supply chain issues but we will probably start to see drastic effects from printing currency with some time. Academics do understand, they just don’t care. Academics are usually rich. Their support for monetary spending policies on progressive/social justice issues (e.g. handouts, green new deal, etc) that is one of the factors leading to high inflation doesn’t affect them as much as it does the working class American. However, it does virtue signal their progressive credentials within their academic/elite group. As always, everything boils down to economic class. Sure but they roll the debt by issuing new debt to pay off old debt and that new debt will be at the higher rates Not necessarily. My point is more so that even at the fixed rate, current tax receipts (down heavy due to capital losses) aren't going to even service the debt. Continuing to raise rates and tighten only adds on to that. It's why Q1 2023 rate hike/cut odds are now pricing in almost a 0.25% rate CUT Yes but our genius leaders have been increasingly refinancing the national debt with short-term paper. Presumably, there isn't enough legitimate market demand for 30-year treasuries so they have been making the maturity shorter and shorter. It's like a homeowner that trades in a fixed-rate mortgage for an adjustable-rate mortgage. What's a 4% interest payment on $30T w/ 62-month average maturity? $500B per year? Compare that to Uncle Sam's revenues. Not even counting state and municipal debt service. See the comment that already replied to you If you get close to his grave you can probably hear him yelling “RAISE RATES” A year ago? We needed it 10 years ago... The obsession with a ‘soft landing’ is dragging this financial crisis out. Yeah I’ve been thinking about it for at least a year now. Maybe even further back, but less dramatically, like when the fed dropped rates in what 2019? Because people were used to the last decade or so of free money, and are scared of anything that isn’t a green arrow pointing straight up. Inflation is 9.9%. We do not have “room” for more money to be in circulation lest risk this level of inflation becoming permanent. you are confused strength of the dollar does not mean what you think it means ​ try eating more avocados I majored in economics and utilize my concentration (labor economics) at work every day. I mostly view these subreddit comments as humor, but it has served to be very educational in how people think about the world when ignorant to the fundamental economic concepts. I especially enjoy when people get their jimmies rustled and double down on economics being a pseudoscience or their conviction behind economic concepts not being accurate in the real world. Those are the real winners. When I see people blaming the money supply expansion without addressing velocity of money, or when they say that rate hikes won't do anything because energy costs are global commodities. Oh lordie.... Oh, well the market had expected inflation to be less than it is. Whether the fed raises interest rates and for how much will be announced later this month. Everyone was betting that the feds work was going to keep inflation in line or dropping but we are seeing a rise so now we have higher rates and higher costs its a DP What rules change are you talking about that resulted in anyone sort of being elected? Lol literally trillions of dollars move with each of these announcements. The data collection methodology and underlying assumptions are consistent and published with the numbers. If any of the folks who claim ""fake"" everytime official economic data is released ever had a shred of evidence of any unscientific methods it would be a monumental scandal. In fact, I think it's very hard to underestimate the effect such a big hit to the credibility to the USD would have. Ok, so the government now has all this extra money. Now how does that relate to the price of gas and meat and the demand from the other 300+M people? As far as I know, the super rich are not buying millions of gallons of gas and millions of lbs of meat for their personal use. How/why would that have any effect on inflation? Damn, then whoever was before must have really screwed some shit up. Ah yes, little troll has no valid response so they make ad homenims Not surprising you don’t understand the limits of what damage to any random euro country any US president can cause We literally aren’t involved beyond selling/ loaning equipment lmfao Do you think if the us did nothing that Russia would for some reason still trade their oil supply normally? Lol Do you guys even think your arguments through? 6 months ago I would have actually written out something to refute you quoting irrelevant data at me, but honestly for everyone one of you that someone responds to 10 more willfully ignorant people pop up. We can’t be held responsible for educating you, you need to take on some of the onus yourself. You are in a finance subreddit, try developing a rudimentary understanding of economics before you post here. I can't tell if you're trolling or not lmao good job if you are “Truth!!!!! Because I said so!!!!!” >Nope, truth. That's not how reality works. Any bearish positions? If the market is going to tank in 21 days why not profit on that? I will be messaging you in 21 days on [**2022-08-03 15:13:58 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2022-08-03%2015:13:58%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/finance/comments/vy2yo4/us_inflation_hits_new_fourdecade_high_of_91/ig01cjz/?context=3) [**CLICK THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Ffinance%2Fcomments%2Fvy2yo4%2Fus_inflation_hits_new_fourdecade_high_of_91%2Fig01cjz%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202022-08-03%2015%3A13%3A58%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam. ^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%20vy2yo4) ***** |[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)| |-|-|-|-| Lmaoooo US crude oil production last year was very close to historic highs. While 2019 was a historic high, 2021 production is still significantly higher than 2018 or any previous year. Just saying. Oil companies have been sitting on sooo many drill permits but they dont want to act on them to drill more because they don't believe it will be as profitable. Not to mention a new oil well takes like 10 years to become profitable in any case God you have no idea what you’re talking about lmfao He cut back on *new* leases, not overall drilling https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/02/24/biden-administration-pausing-new-oil-and-gas-leases-amid-legal-battle-.html And he moved forward with them within a year https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2022/01/27/oil-gas-leasing-biden-climate/ An oil ceo literally went on TV and said we have no intention to release more barrels into the market, our shareholders demand a return of cash. Do any of the responses even register with you? Because they are one of the main countries that can dictate *global* oil prices You know, the thing American companies base their pricing off of? Lmfao Nope. Government. [deleted] clearly, just the other day my family was shipped off to Siberia for not meeting quota... gosh this is LITERALLY THE WORST.. ​ can't wait to move to a socialist utopia where inflation doesn't exist I bought Ibonds a month ago that pay ~9.2%. Pretty sweet deal. If it's really that broken, shouldn't it be an arbitrage opportunity? So, similarly, you’re projecting 5% for now. Assuming that we’re going with price is right rules, I’m going to project 2.51% for now. I think, you're thinking of Series I bonds, which are inflation protected savings bonds which are indeed limited to $10k per person. By contrast TIPS are marketable securities, and there is no individual limit. [removed] US dollar is a GLOBAL reserve currency. Excessive usd will always find their way to become excessive local currency. No, you printed Euros. It’s always crickets when someone points out that inflation is a global phenomenon. At least the US has low unemployment going in to it. Many countries in Europe have high inflation and a limited recovery from COVID. >Austria and Germany have also around 9% inflation, but we didn’t print dollars. Yes, they printed euros. Now if you go look at places that didn't do this (there aren't many, but Norway and China are an example) you are seeing inflation running much lower. About 3.x% less for Norway and China has been running at 2.2%, and is now looking at basically printing money. But you use ours for international trade (I’m guessing as most do) so when the dollar goes down drastically it effects everyone. they printed Euros. Switzerland has 2% inflation because they didn´t print as much while having the same energy costs, covid problems. It´s the banks, don´t be fooled. Turkey has 78% inflation. [https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/inflation-rate?continent=europe](https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/inflation-rate?continent=europe) Yeah because pretty much every country printed money for an economic stimulus during covid. Printing money = inflation is something anyone with a basic education knew would happen Look at this lucky cat getting a 1-3% raise. My company said “thank you for making us record profits, have a keychain with our logo on it” Hah the US class 1 freight railroads have had record profits for 3 straight years each quarter breaking the previous, union ground employees haven’t had a new contract or raise since 2019. Most they’ve offered is 9% over 5 years! Wonder why America is failing! [deleted] So what is the 1.3% increase in June using as a point of reference? May's prices perhaps? Downward during the earliest phase of the pandemic, then shot up as it absorbed households excess savings, and has since stabilized at about $1.25t. We similarly see the government and foreign sector absorbing those excess savings, as the US budget surplus and trade deficit shoot up. Oil is a global market. There are refineries somewhere that will take it and in the process the more Oil produced globally, the more it will drive down global oil prices. If there is enough of a spread between light and heavy oil, then there would be incentive for refineries to switch their processing capabilities. Part of the reason why prices are so high now is because many oil producers have been slow to bring back capacity after partially shutting down capacit during Covid. [deleted] mmt... perpetual motion with shiny new branding Don't you guys get tired of saying this in every thread? The dollar hit parity vs the euro and you think it is devalued because of printing? Fuck it's worth too much now, we should print more. You are aware that central banks have regretted rate hikes many times in the past right? Swedish inflation just came in today at 8,5%. Almost identical to American numbers despite no excessive money printing. Cost inflation right now is almost completely due to energy prices and scarcity. The real world has too many factors to just say print more equals less value. It did contribute something to this, absolutely. But you are WAY WAY too America centric. In Sweden where I’m from we took Corona straight to the chin. Not one single day of lockdown, we just let the old people die. No money printing no nothing. We are facing as bad consumer price inflation as USA. In all of Europe there was a huge diversity in money printing, lockdowns and everything else. Every single country has been hit by insane consumer price inflation. The dollar is now worth more than the euro despite USA going way more crazy with money printing. The real answer is that almost all of the price inflation is due to supply issues and energy price. You must realise that every product and service is sensitive to energy. It’s the one raw material used for everything. So while the US printed like crazy, everyone who did and everyone who didn’t are now facing more or less identical inflation because this time the printing isn’t the big issue. Supply and energy is the whole hamburger and your printing is the ketchup. It’s there undeniably but it’s only adding a little flavour. Todays print was peak. Will slow down from here Typically we have about a quarter to 30% of of our external debt that has less than one year of maturity so in the next year we will probably have to roll like 6-8 trillion, which is a lot but I’m not sure that is really in the territory of credit default. A 3 percent raise in interest would increase our servicing by about 180-240 billion a year, which is a lot but not something that would really be close to credit default, or at least I wouldn’t suspect it Id be interested in reading more about that because currently futures are showing a 75 or 100 bps likely to be the next rate hike. Think I’d rather see a more professional analysis with sources for the data. I’m not doubting the analysis, but I can’t exactly trust a comment either. Feel like that would be discussed more if it was a legit worry. It’s possible you and the other commenter are missing something In my opinion it was the response to Covid and the trillions of dollars printer to prop up the market. It seems inflation lags 1-2 years and the fed is only reacting now which *should* lead to more drastic rate hikes. To protect the market I can see them cutting as early as September while inflation continues Great explanation you really educated him Done. Cheaper than last week? Now what. What’s your take on inflation? Curious to learn from someone who is much more knowledgeable than the rest of us It's almost like truth is complicated and can be the result of a confluence of many inputs, rather than the ""reddit university"" conclusion of problems only have one cause and only one solution and we just need to argue about which single answer is totally right. The velocity of money matters but the velocity has changed far less than the total supply has. So yeah, it'd be relevant. If it were relevant. Steve Hanke says M2 growth fuels inflation Alright, thanks for the answer man seen some downvotes, I’ll keep questions to a minimum here I guess its funny how ignorant people don't understand the impact of wealth redistribution on inflation.. mansa musa taught this lesson 700 years ago.. this ain't rocket science Burn the money. Take it away and burn it. It all funnels up anyways Yeah it started about President bush. But it’s funny you’re thinking about Biden and Trump. You think this is a new problem. Cute. So our problems don’t come from years of bad election and bad elected officials? Great so who do we blame for the problems. But it is great that everyone thinks the moment you say election have Consequences everyone thinks of Biden and attacks Trump. Kinda both. We have been being played by our government for years. 42 that I can remember. We have been electing pigs with lipstick for ever. Our government officials are the reason for this problem. Not just 1 all of them. And seeing people jump to defend Biden or attack Trump is fun too. Lol truth isn’t truth. I guess if you vote blue that’s the case lmfao Because I don't understand puts or shorts lol After gas inflation, prices go up! Econ101 I don’t need to be told other wise when common sense does just fine. And it’s because of this shithole presidency and his policies. you think they understand math... that's cute No shit but we are taking about what is causing inflation and dipshit capitalist over charging to fill their greedy pockets is a big part of what’s happening that and all the capitalist that got ppp loans that never went to employees and greedy capitalist that got bailed out from the 2020 stock market crash. Done by GARBAGE CAPITALIST Doing a lot of speculation there but what do you expect from someone that thinks a system designed to screw others over for their own gain. Go visit rural red America and you’ll see how amazing capitalism can be and don’t act like people don’t get shipped doesn’t happen in America. Slavery is still legal for criminals and we have the highest prison population that makes profit. Go take the capitalist blinders off and come see reality yes. this person is in love with their own prose, but they have no idea what they're talking about. Not really. Some brave souls might try to position trade something, but you would have to have confidence in the direction the Fed will take on the short end of the curve 5 years out, or they will abandon their current regime by them. That is assuming a lot that isn’t likely. Inflation protected products are very niche anyway. A system governed by inflationary monetary and fiscal policy, even assuming 2%, and financial repression (negative real yields) doesn’t work if you give investors an escape hatch. Look at how much over par a TIPS goes for and the unfavorable tax treatment and you will ask yourself why anybody ever buys one. For a retail investor, just max your I-bonds. They can be useful in niche scenarios if you use a fund or some other tax sheltered device (401k, IRA) or in some circumstances a hedging tool. But broadly it’s like the rest of the bond market. Betting against the Fed is a widow maker. If you can read the Fedspeak tea leaves shorter term, and use the funds to avoid the tax issues, you can probably make a return. Fight them, and it’s your funeral. Interesting, I didn't know this -- will dig a bit deeper. Thank you! Energy independence should have happened long ago but just because inflation is high doesn't mean we should continue to fund putin's campaign against the middle east and Eastern Europe US dollar is only getting stronger in this economy Its not ""always crickets when someone points out that inflation is a global phenomenon."" If you haven't heard that the BoJ, ECB, and RBA hadn't also been printing money (and MORE aggressively than the Fed), then you are intentionally ignorant. [Why Is U.S. Inflation Higher than in Other Countries? - SFFRB](https://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/publications/economic-letter/2022/march/why-is-us-inflation-higher-than-in-other-countries/) That is when you find a new company, the best thing you can do to improve the situation is not work for shitholes, eventually they will realize nobody wants to work for them and change their approach I fucking wish. ""all items index increased 9.1 percent for the 12 months ending June"" [https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cpi.nr0.htm](https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cpi.nr0.htm) I never worked downstream, but looking at this article from the Chron, we're talking about two years. [https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/energy/article/Oil-majors-move-to-prepare-refineries-for-West-13571877.php](https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/energy/article/Oil-majors-move-to-prepare-refineries-for-West-13571877.php) moreover, you should recognize that you can ""make more stuff"" from a barrel of the heavy stuff and a lot of the plants were financed with those downstream products in mind. > It did contribute something to this, absolutely. You could have stopped there. Correct, the next one or two will be that high. Q1 is where the market expects a pivot. There’s no way they will cut rates by then right? That makes no sense unless inflation really starts to tamp down. This is hilarious. My take is that it is a multi variable issue and people will do anything to reject that answer. In the beginning, people conflated stagflation for inflation (example: lumbar costs), and as time went on (t=0 being 2020) it began to broadly become supply contractions due to supply chain breakdowns or inefficiencies. Companies then latched onto this scapegoat and began their journey to increasing prices. They did so independent of supply contractions in order to absorb lost profits due to demand destruction from lifestyle changes through the pandemic. Other companies joined in regardless of whether or not the pandemic fueled profits or not. Consumers were proving that goods and services are much more inelastic than producers had thought. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/priceelasticity.asp Alternatively, we can view this as producers not exploiting wage growth until recently. Reddit loves to whine about wage stagnation, but in the real world the data suggests that wages had been growing pretty consistently. Producers found new equilibrium prices, but recently have been participating in price gouging. This makes everyone go crazy and generates a lot of ""I told you so"" scenarios. For example, if someone thought inflation would hit because ""the government printed money,"" they now have the confirmation bias they needed in order to post a spicy meme on Facebook. The money supply expansion didn't do all that much for inflation. The velocity of money is what we would want to look at to determine if it is a significant indicator yet. An example of using this data to rebut the crazy guy next door saying stimulus checks caused inflation would be to reference this data: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M2V Lastly, some people say weird and ignorant things about the price of gasoline. At its core, it is a reflection of supply/demand. View the 5 year oil rig graph here: https://ycharts.com/indicators/world_oil_rotary_rigs No shit. You are supporting my claim. Holy cow this is great. Yes, in the long run as the money begins to circulate. If it is hoarded, it does nothing to fuel inflation. You..you don't get economics do you? I mean, glancing at M2 and debt-to-gdp would tell you the scale of growth is relatively new I don't disagree with that sentiment but it's just a fact that Biden or Trump is not responsible for the economy. I agree that bidens policies are worse than Trump. But if Trump were president he wouldn't be able to change the global economic crisis happening. Sounds like something weird for you to talk about in a finance subreddit then. >because I don't understand ~~puts or shorts~~ lol ​ FTFY You clearly don’t have common sense or a grasp on Econ 101 though yes you do need to be told because you don’t know Jack shit about gas prices. Your fake god and prophet Trump negotiated with opec to slow production during the pandemic. ah, so whataboutism is your argument... try sober comparative analysis and maybe a touch of grow up Ah yes it’s getting -9.1% stronger That and the fact that the USD is the global reserve currency, it affects everyone. Yes, they report year over year and month over month. You didn't answer my question though, what is the reference point for the 1.3% increase [deleted] Can you please send me where you are seeing this, especially the declining tax receipts to the point where we couldn’t service debt? I’m interested to see the correlation between tax receipts and interest rates since it isn’t something people are talking about a lot I would hope not. The market is already pricing in rate cuts in 2023. Raising rates impacts spending, mortgages, etc Which part of mv=pq are you missing? Absolutely. just like after Bush and 9/11. Obama couldn’t have stopped inflation if he had to. After a 2 year pandemic and lock down. Biden was in the hot set the moment he tossed his name in the hat. I would have let Trump take the fall. We all knew this was coming. People just need someone to blame. ""I don't know the more complicated aspects of investing as an average person"" Reddit finance nerd: ""Well then you are not to speak on it! Because I'm a genius for knowing what a put is and you're not!"" I graduated college already dumbass! I clearly understand Economics. You’re the one who started the whataboutism hahah typical out of touch capitalist You can have a stronger dollar while also seeing inflation. It's likely to only get stronger as Europe waited to raise interest rates and the world economy gets shakier. It's a damned finance sub. That’s the seasonal adjustment. https://www.bls.gov/cpi/seasonal-adjustment/questions-and-answers.htm If you want to know more, API has some fairly straightforward content here: https://www.api.org/oil-and-natural-gas/wells-to-consumer > If it’s two years to retool … Sure it’s not a short as a wood framed house (~6 - 7 months) but it’s not as long as a nuclear power station (~decade+?). The physical stuff/infrastructure always takes a long time to build out. The long lead time for these developments means that in *most* markets supply doesn’t respond to demand very well. Well, at least it’s not as instantaneous as one’s microeconomics 101 prof would have you believe. Here are a few tweets for you, I'll look for something more detailed tomorrow: [1](https://twitter.com/LukeGromen/status/1541824192542396416?s=20&t=ZQVPlbNEWCrLaZJM5mxTGg) [2](https://twitter.com/LukeGromen/status/1540047953599119362?s=20&t=ZQVPlbNEWCrLaZJM5mxTGg) [3](https://twitter.com/LukeGromen/status/1539958031697543169?s=20&t=ZQVPlbNEWCrLaZJM5mxTGg) Unless they expect inflation to really decrease by then but honestly even if that is true idk if cutting rates at the point is wise…people just got used to the rate being so low after 08 I think. We need to be able to cut rates in a future recession Sounds like you didn’t pay attention Did you pay attention or sleep through the whole thing? you need a dictionary.. Oh I agree with you. I just don’t see the fed being competent and r doing what needs to be done Ok so who do you think pays for the gas to drive all our goods around!? You think this shit just magically appears in the stores!? Once gas goes up! Consumers pay the price!! Dummy Not nearly as much as you need a brain Yeah…same Nobody made that assertion, but please continue your hissy fit :) Would you like some goldfish too? as you've convincingly shown... bravo Jesus you are that dumb, let me guess your a blue no matter who idiot!? Nice self own! I’m guessing the brain statement was a little to on point. Have a great rest of the day and bless your heart sweetie! No I’m just literate How do you think stores get filled!? Tell me then if I’m so wrong!? Who do you think pays for that stuff to get shipped!? Who pays those drivers and gas!? THE CONSUMERS DUMMY Wow you’ve really moved the goalpost entirely from “Biden ENDED DRILLING” So you do you have a coherent point or are you just gonna ramble and cry? That end of drilling CAUSED this gas hike and inflation you idiot!!!!! That’s why we have skyrocketing inflation, because of GAS!!!! Jesus you’re dumb!!! Except biden didn’t end drilling kiddo https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2022/01/27/oil-gas-leasing-biden-climate/ https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/02/24/biden-administration-pausing-new-oil-and-gas-leases-amid-legal-battle-.html He *paused* new leases for *one* year because companies are sitting on hundreds that they aren’t drilling. So he made them use those first Maybe use that college degree you bragged about earlier and read about it? Even trump was slightly literate You’re a special kind of stupid to not believe his policies are failing us. Special!! Buddy you can’t read, I’m not sure you’re in a position to question others intelligence Like I said…. Special https://youtu.be/PIbrBk9b1Hg That means literally nothing lmfao trump also talked about inject bleach and using a horse dewormer for covid, even after doctors pointed out it was unsafe. People already tried to point out how you don’t actually know what’s going on, and tried to get you to read into what you’re falsely claiming. At this point you should start with *Hooked on Phonics* then *Reader Rabbit* and then maybe after a few *Goosebumps* books you’ll be literate enough to continue this conversation :)" JP Morgan has created an index to track the effect of Trump’s tweets on financial markets: ‘Volfefe index’,1783,https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/08/donald-trump-is-tweeting-more-and-its-impacting-the-bond-market.html,"Trump is going to have a field day with this tracker.. Volfefe, this is the strangest timeline. >In an attempt to quantify the impact of Trump’s tweets on the bond market, J.P. Morgan devised a “Volfefe Index” to analyze how the president’s tweets are influencing volatility in U.S. interest rates. >J.P. Morgan found that the index, named after Trump’s infamous and still mysterious “covfefe” tweet, explains a measurable fraction of the moves in implied rate volatility for 2-year and 5-year Treasurys. >“This makes rough sense as much of the president’s tweets have been focused on the Federal Reserve, and as trade tensions are broadly seen as, first and foremost, impactful on near-term economic performance and, likewise, the Fed’s reaction to such developments,” wrote the authors of the J.P. Morgan report. >Trump’s market-moving messages most often address trade and monetary policy, with key words including “China,” “billion” and “products.” >While Trump’s twitter activity can disrupt markets with sudden attacks on China trade or the Federal Reserve, he has still been good for the stock market overall. The Dow is up 42% since the 2016 presidential election and 31% since his inauguration. >“Trade talk, political campaigning and tweets have contributed to volatility, from China to Fed policy to tax policy,” wrote the brokerage’s chief equity strategist Savita Subramanian. Is it an ETF yet? Can we just pause for a moment and just appreciate how every sane person in the world thinks Trump, the current president of the US, is a fucking joke. He is probably the least respected and most laughed at person to have ever held public office. I mean Jp Morgan made an index with a name that makes fun of him. And they’re not even trying to hide it. /r/wallstreetbets They will find a strong correlation between positions placed just before comments are made ... Lol.. They're better off letting some grad student do this.. I genuinely thought this was a wsb joke /r/aboringdystopia Damn, Jamie Dimon knows how to troll him Didn’t planet money do this with real money early on? @BOTUS on Twitter? If he tweets about the index and it rises, I’m afraid we might have a feedback loop. Didn’t npr planet money make a bot to do this a few years ago? Whatever happened with that Didn't NPR try to do this 2 years ago? The Dow up but my portfolio down Politics aside, are there any benchmarks/standards for measuring the effect of tweets in general upon treasuries or the bond market in general? It feels intuitive that there is correlation, but are any such data sets or regressions publicly available? Volfefe coin If the world is really a simulation then Trump was programmed by a lazy ass Alien bitch You mean the covfefe index? Finally someone has done that as Trump tweets have a huge influence on the market. Of course, the president knows this and exploit it to move the markets as it is explained here: [https://independenttrader.org/how-does-trump-manipulate-the-markets.html](https://independenttrader.org/how-does-trump-manipulate-the-markets.html) [deleted] This all assumes that he writes all of his own tweets. I think that's pretty unlikely. I thought it was “covfefe”? No institutional investor is going to touch this. This is strictly for the rubes on Robinhood and r/wallstreetbets Fake news A bit biased; there has certainly been a rise in the stock market since Trump's term began, but there are many factors to this. Most economists don't credit the President for the economy directly. r/fellowkids Yeah how does he not make a ton of money from this? JP Morgan Chase announces Yang Gang Asian whores for free when you use points from your Chase Sapphire Reserve card. >some timeline somewhere [deleted] [removed] [removed] A tweETF. CVFE > every sane person in the world thinks Trump, the current president of the US, is a fucking joke. Mocking him and his constituents doesn't seem to be helping much unfortunately. His opponents are debating slavery reparations, integration busing, effectively banning entire industries on day 1, trillions and trillions in new spending on medical care and Green New deals, gun confiscation, and the implementation of policies that can only be accurately described as ""open borders"". Trump's *tone* is nutty. His opponents *policies* are nutty. You think ""every sane person"" agrees with you because the advent of social media and the complete stranglehold that radical leftism has on academia and media have allowed you to exist purely in your bubble. It's why the American left radicalized to such an extreme degree over the past decade (remember when Obama opposed gay marriage?). You're in a weird ideologically blinkered death cult. [deleted] [deleted] > every sane person in the world thinks Trump, the current president of the US, is a fucking joke. You dont get out much do you. One of the podcasts (planet money?) tried to set up an algorithm to trade companies Trump talked about, and it failed after about 6 months. Link: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/04/07/522897876/meet-botus-planet-money-s-stock-trading-twitter-bot and right after Rises or lowers depending. More tariffs = market drops Making progress = market rise It’s simple math and he’s using trade wars to enrich his wall street connections... not to mention himself and anyone else who has the funds to benefit from his system exploit. I don’t know why you’re downvoted when this is entirely accurate to say. 🤷‍♂️ It's a joke on covfefe but vol is life Nothing to do with who writes them. It’s likely a play on volatility and covfefe together. Just a thought. I don't think its that kind of index No. This isn’t fake actually. Yes, the Dow has risen past 25000 three times since Trump took office. (Trump praised the milestone each time). Blind trust. Not actually illegal for government officials to insider trade. Really? Can you provide a link to what made you feel 99% sure? Yes, the “coverage” typo was sent out from a game show host with a poor attention span. I’m guessing no one has looked at your username? What email list? Can you share a link? But do I long or short!?!? “That’s why you lost!” Tune in to Fox news for 10 minutes and you’ll see them mocking every political party under the sun, this self-victimization is hilarious It doesn’t matter. At this point, if they’re still Trump constituents, there’s nothing that can be done. Doesn’t hurt either > His opponents are debating slavery reparations, integration bussing, effectively banning entire industries on day 1, trillions and trillions in new spending on medical care and Green New deals, gun confiscation, and the implementation of policies that can only be accurately described as ""open borders"". You mean policies that are in every single Western European nation, Canada, and Australia? > You're in a weird ideologically blinkered death cult. LOL. Have you ever left the USA? By the way I’m not even American. If you’re suggesting that Trump did ANY of the legwork for that bill, you need to go see a proctologist for assistance with removing your head from your ass. (just keep ignoring the fact Republicans forced those survivors to come to Capitol Hill to plead their case) What you still have to believe is that J.P. Morgan made an index with a name that makes fun of the President. And they’re really not even trying to hide it. J.P. Morgan is at the human limit of how brutally professional, prestigious and powerful a global company can be, full of very bright people with real gravitas and they're doing this to the sitting President. Lmfo. Bless you heart, buttercup. Remind me after the 2020 election. I’m not even American lol Just my two cents coming from the north east. I work in sales and talk to dozens of people from all walks of life daily. Lots of people openly share their opinions on things when you encourage them to talk about themselves (what I sell requires allot of personal uncovering to sell well) 75% of people I talk to will happily shit on the president when given any chance to comment on politics. 15% stay quiet and avoid mention of anything controversial, and 10% are very loud and open supporters. I’m sure it depends on where you are but Around here trump supporters are a loud minority. you must live in the south or a racist town Nah I'll corroborate that. I've got friends from literally all over the world (University with a very international student base). Everyone sees him as a joke. Nationalism doesn't really inspire others in the other side of the border, if you hadn't figured that out yet. You should stay in your cave. > *sane* person [deleted] then show me the index Presidents generally don't have a lot of direct control over the economy, and Trump hasn't had much of a fiscal policy aside from tax cuts to the rich and tweet market-crashing shit occasionally. [deleted] [deleted] That’s not it... keep guessing. I’m just asking a question no one seems to have the answer to. Just deflections and insults. ROFLMAO Hopefully forgot the /s...hopefully. Thank you for making my day. ...what? America is genuinely unique on gun issues given expansive rights explicitly outlined in our constitution. Other than that, the *only* policy I mentioned that (some) other countries have is something equivalent to “Medicare for all”. And even that’s not universal - plenty of countries have hybrid systems with heavy private involvement (which is essentially what we have post-Obamacare). >LOL. Have you ever left the USA? ...Yes? And all of this *also applies to the European left*. The factors driving their devolvement into insanity in America are also at work in Europe, they just manifest in different ways. >By the way I’m not even American Explains your ignorance of American politics. [deleted] True. True ok [deleted] [deleted] Nope, lived in 7 states in my life, 6 of them Yankee, 3 of them extreme blue. Go out and meet people, Trump supporters literally are the silent majority, quiet for fear it might impact work. MAGA 2020 > I've got friends from literally all over the world (University with a very international student base). I have friends from all around the world. They like Trump and the US. There, we've canceled out each others evidence. I still encourage people to travel and talk to people, knowing people you want to know (selection bias, what you are doing), doesn't support anything and keeps you in your bubble. Being forced to talk to a bunch of randos, and realizing ""holy shit a ton of people like Trump!"", is a wake up call. You have to do it yourself tho, i can only tell you were the water is - you gotta drink it! Of flying all over the US and the world? Yeah - ill stay there. My thoughts were more market related and not company specific to anyone company. For example announcements regarding tariffs result in massive immediate changes to currencies, someone with prior knowledge could therefore set positions from any country etc etc A friend of mine who trades for them confirmed this to me. We have to blindly trust him, in that he won’t. He asked for evidence or some sort of reasoning. You do realize how dumb you look right? I'm an atheist trump supporter please give me something real I dunno but my guess is he misspelled a word and people were like wow what a fucking idiot he can’t spell. The his supports took it as a a badge of honor because they like to look the other way and make excuses anytime Trump fucks up. So now they speed it cause they thinks it’s funny and “triggering” leftist which in their mind is “winning”. Either way I don’t care Trump just has to go Oh yeah you're right he's playing 4d chess Sure it isn’t. Your first reply was the answer.. It's ""coverage"". ""Just downvotes."" Because you're not worth the effort. As they say, figure it out Do you realize your idea of leftism extremism falls slightly left leaning (close to the center) in many other countries, notably Canada and Western Europe I would argue that the GOP is considered right extremism in the aforementioned countries. You're a fucking joke. So creating a specific index just to track how much the president is influencing markets with his idiotic remarks on a fucking website is not a big deal to you? Remind me to tell you how wrong you are after 2020 I said SOUTH or RACIST town. Boston is considered yankee, but those Irish fucks are racist as hell and so are most American whites. Ok since you decided to be a jackass, I took the 15 seconds to Google something for you https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2018/10/01/trumps-international-ratings-remain-low-especially-among-key-allies/ ""A median of only 27% say they have confidence in President Trump to do the right thing in world affairs; 70% lack confidence in him"". Have a nice day! Obviously his opinion is proof enough you racist bigot He’s 99% sure FUCK WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT!! Strap up! Long way till 2024. And after that we’ve got DJTJr. P.S. you’re wrong. That’s right. And you guys still haven’t figured it out. How long has it been? Wrong. Commonly stated, always (very clearly) false. Most Western European countries (and most in general) don’t even *have* concepts like birthright citizenship. You wouldn’t know what “forced busing” even means. Macron’s mild gas taxes caused months of riots - imagine a Cortez/Warren/Sanders Green New Deal. I *wish* that Americans had the more sensible view of immigration held by our OECD allies in Japan. i *wish* Western and Central European populist style parties were common here. Unfortunately they aren’t. Your view of Trump has been filtered entirely through the lens of American radical left media. Step back from cross-ocean comprisons for a second and compare the left’s views in your country to their views a decade ago. Two decades ago. Three. It’s the left that has radicalized, globally. This is objective fact. [deleted] > and so are most American whites. LOL. Which is itself a racist statement. I love it. I have faith that the world will be smart enough not to make the same mistake again. Also DJT Jr. is just not likable my guy. I get where your coming from but the dude, I honestly can’t believe I’m saying this, has none of the charm of Trump. He’s just a waste of space trying to follow in daddy’s footsteps but he just doesn’t have it. What do you like to do? What? > Despite the constant negative press covfefe The only plausible answer is ""coverage"". I can see you have pretty conservative ideas. Have you ever considered that in order to maintain US’s dominance and it’s world order, the US needs a bigger population? The reason why China has such a huge market and so much bargaining power is because of its sheer size in population of 1.3 billion people. In order for the US to beat China in the 50 years, the US needs to grow its population to at least half of China. As a conservative yourself wouldn’t it be in the best interest to do whatever possible for US to maintain its dominance? I’m not saying you should open your borders to low wage workers from Mexico but what about greatly relaxing immigration policies to attract more people with college education? > his policies have been pretty good and he’s followed through on tons of his campaign promises The only policy that I somewhat agree with is his trade war with China but not for the reasons as he intended. The consequence of it being able to contain China’s rise is the only good that will come out of it. His other policies are absolutely atrocious. Tax cuts for the rich. Scaling back of environmental and finance regulations. And wtf pulling funds from the military for the border wall? I’m just glad I’m not American. Not really Trump effect is strong though. I think bozo the clown wins in 2024 if Trump gives his endorsement. Work, play sports, video games, kayak. You know, normal things. Are you saying he was meaning to say coverage instead of covfefe? [deleted] Ah i see the angle were playing. African-americans commit a *ton* of violent crime in the US. Except - i have the stats to back it up and you dont, you racist bigot. Hopefully we don’t get there. I sure won’t be staying home and silent this election. Gonna do everything I can to get someone competent and good in office 2020 I'd like to hear what you think he meant to say. > The border wall should be built People enter the US by planes. It’s 2019. > The tax cuts have spurred economic growth No it hasn’t. GDP growth has slowed since the tax cuts. > innovation is the most likely savior of our environment No. Cutting down emissions would save our environment. You have a really messed up view of America man. Where do you think rolling back environmental regulations are going to get us in 50 years? Who are going to pick our crops besides for the illegals and migrant workers? Why was the entirety of the tax break used to buy back stock and not compensate workers? Why is okay to pull funding from military families to finance a wall he said Mexico was going to pay for. He has spent over 250 days at his own resort property since becoming president. He paid a porn star HUSH money during his campaign and repeatedly lied about it. The only thing his administration has been successful at doing is stuffing the courts with really fucked up judges. Might as well vote Trump if all you need is competent and good. He’s got both of those locked up. [deleted] Now this is the dumbest thing I have read on the internet today. Nice try Russian troll But we had solar panels and tesla before the regulations were stripped back. Lowering the bar for pollutions and negative environmental effects gives no benefit. If anything it takes away incentive to innovate. Companies dont need to come up with a better solution if we lower the requirements. Why spend hundreds of millions testing and designing a cleaner car with less emmisions, if the current emmisions pass the test? Most businesses won't, it hurts profits. Forcing business to continue to get better with regulations is a better solution than stripping them away and assuming they take initiative to make themselves better. The solution should have been regulations that get stricter over time. Your cars are allowed to pollute X amount in 2020. That level is dropping by 5% in 2025. They know ahead of time, so now they have 5 years to innovate and make sure their future cars meet those requirements. That would give an incentive to invest in improvment. I also agree innovation is the key forward, but massive business should be held at strict regulations they have the money to follow them. If you wanted to make sure businesses had the oportunity to start up, and arent crushing opportunities with too many regulations for competition, then I also agree it would be beneficial for smaller businesses to be given more leeway. They have less resources to enforce those sort of regulations so its only fair. Just like there are differnet levels and types of corporations there could be specific examptions and lower standards for smaller businesses. Theres obviously a huge difference between a start up car company trying to do something new and Ford motors with billions of dollars to make sure its following the rules. So if anything i think the BEST solutions is a more dynamic regulation system that differentiates between business class and size. Pulling back regulations and giving more room to smaller businesses/startups so they can form and stay competitive, while also pushing larger businesses to continue improving and innovating." "Tesla soars 10%, hits $1 trillion market cap for the first time after Hertz says it will buy 100,000 electric vehicles",1748,https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/25/tesla-shares-up-on-news-hertz-will-purchase-100000-electric-vehicles.html,"Gets a 4 bil contract, gains $100 bil in market cap. Madness. $4 bill purchase from a literally bankrupt buyer. Nothing put to paper yet but a 10% move on a large cap company like it's a penny stock. Where's Burry at? Wait, is this a fleet purchase by *the* **Hertz**? One of the world's largest and least profitable car rental companies, formerly a wholly owned subsidiary and product whore of the Ford Motor Company, recently bankrupt **Hertz**? Wowee! Tesla is one of those companies whose valuation makes literally zero sense to me. Even if you want to say due to legacy costs you cant actually compare them to a company like Ford or GM individually you cant actually tell me with a straight face that Tesla is more valuable than the rest of the automotive OEMs combined right? But then again, I've been saying this since like 2014 and the market has disagreed with me the entire time. More coverage at: * [Tesla hits $1 trillion market capitalization on series of good news (msn.com)](https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/tesla-hits-1-trillion-market-capitalization-on-series-of-good-news/ar-AAPWiMl) * [Hertz to buy 100K Tesla Model 3 cars in push for EV rentals (cbsnews.com)](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hertz-100000-tesla-model-3-car-rental/) * [Hertz Orders 100,000 Teslas, Will Set Up Electric Vehicle Charging Network (newsweek.com)](https://www.newsweek.com/hertz-orders-100000-teslas-will-set-electric-vehicle-charging-network-1642255) --- ^(I'm a bot to find news from different sources.) [^(Report an issue)](https://www.reddit.com/user/MultiSourceNews_Bot/comments/k5pcrc/multisourcenews_bot_info/) ^(or PM me.) How many cars in the next 20 years do they need to sell annually to justify this kind of valuation? Wait didn’t Hertz go bankrupt? Ah if I go bankrupt I don’t have two nickels … they get $4.2 billion? WTF! Jeff bezos punching the air right now hertz gonna have superchargers at there spots but gonna charge 4x funny last week I read Alaska sold gme for tesla. figured it meant tesla was going up Elon should give $4b to Avis to buy his cars. When the deal is announced and the stock goes up he'll make money by giving away his product. TSLA is a magic printing press! Volkswagen is the biggest manufacturers of electric cars no? Why assume those will be Tesla’s? r/finance and r/investing will always be infinitely mad that theyre wrong about the market 100% of the time I already gave up on using any financial analysis method to justify Tesla’s stock price since it passed 300 billion. This is beyond crazy but I don’t see it tanking either. Sometimes we just gotta accept that when a brand and stock achieves cult-like following it just goes up indefinitely in 2019 a friend said (paraphrasing,) ""He's probably going to go bankrupt, and next thing you'll hear is, He's committed suicide."" Guess who I'm not taking financial advice from? LOL With all the gains they have had on negative news, this seems like a logical increase. If production continues to improve, and they are able to achieve the goals that made them so attractive, the ceiling here could still be far off. Cheers to anyone who bought pre-pandemic 🍻 I like ta move it, move it. My question is how much will Hertz charge to rent one? The same Hertz that filed for bankruptcy? #Tesla should sell stock Is Elon Musk the new John DeLorean? Can Hertz pay for the cars? Heinz ketchup is but a fraction of total Tesla Meaning that Tesla’s value officially has more digits than Elon’s kid’s name. Then ended down today lol Nancy Pelosi’s husband is on a absolute heater Get ready for all the new PTs. Can Tesla even deliver the vehicles? Do they have the capacity to fulfill the order, especially considering the huge problem with chip shortages? Do you watch the stock crash when they can’t deliver? Friendly reminder that there are other EVs out there I thought Tesla was overvalued at like 70 back in 2012... Boy was I stupid Where’s the DWAC 🧵 Forward forward looking This company is so strange fiscally Yeah but *it's not just a car company* Finance at its finest [deleted] At the end of the day, no car company is worth nor will ever be worth $1 trillion. That's it. No amount of big brain mental gymnastics can get around the fact that automobile manufacturing is a capital intensive, low margin, cyclical business. Not total madness. If hertz is going electric on their fleet, other rental car companies likely will too in the near future. Yelling at the walls while listening to the heavy metal, phase. He exited his short position i truly pity him He had the right idea, but the regulatory credits will likely stop after 5 years once the government gets its common sense back. Went bankrupt for 4.5 bil, uses 4.2 bil on tsla lol Tech + online marketplace/logistics ~= Amazon Tech + manufacturing ~= Tesla Would you say it’s fair that Amazon should be worth 100x the in person retailers they replaced? Tesla’s gross margins are now 3x Ford’s and 6x GM’s. They are completely dominating manufacturing in the automotive world with countless novel innovations. [deleted] The real point of Tesla is Energy -- and specifically batteries. If we convert 90% of vehicles to electric, we will need the battery manufacture capability to replace ALL energy use with rechargeable storage that can be provided from any kind of generating source. That's a total re-work of the world's energy infrastructure and being a primary player in that is Tesla's end-game. Tesla isn't a car company, any more than it's a recharging station company... the cars are the stepping stone in the same way the performance sports cars were a stepping stone. Try this. 2020 3Q EPS was $1.86, $7.44 annualized. Let’s assume their revenue grows 50% next year and earnings grow 75% (higher due to op leverage). That would be $13.02 2022 annualized EPS. $13 x 100 multiple is $1,300 per share. Discount back 10% to this year that’s $1,180 per share current target. 24 million cars to get $1 trillion in revenue. total car market is $5T. Let’s talk earnings. 3Q 2021 was $1.86 EPS, $7.44 annualized. Let’s throw a 100x multiple on them (they’re growing 50%+ a year, it’s justified) and we’re at a share price of $744 just based on current earnings. If Tesla grows 50% next year what happens to earnings? They grow by more due to operational leverage, probably 75%. 744 x 1.75 = $1,300 per share NEXT YEAR. Tesla is a lot cheaper than you realize. If they only make cars and not factories they can't possibly do it -- Tesla isn't a car company it's an energy company and a factory manufacturing company that makes factories, batteries, and cars. They went bankrupt because of COVID not because of a poor business model. Car rentals are debt heavy businesses but Hertz were affected by the poor travel markets. The order is for Tesla’s. Tesla sells 2x the number of electric cars as VW. Probably because they are not long term / value investors. they do. It's called dilution. Their vertical integration actually gives them a pretty big advantage on that front. Even when they have to make do with an alternative chipset, they have the in-house expertise to write new firmware to accommodate the hardware changes. Not ideal, but better than stalling your entire line. And people think a 25 PE (that’s price/Earnings) multiplier is overvalued. Bitch, this is a 25 PR! [deleted] Do you think they have any control over their stock price ? Why? It’s a tech company FSD? Pump and dump of the highest order Finally! Someone else that gets it about not getting it. I get it: Tesla is striving for something radically different while most other car makers are focused largely on EV drivetrains. Tesla is a tech company not a car company. I feel that Tesla's risk of being undercut by competition, particularly those that have been around for 100+ years, is something that just ought not be overlooked. It's still very much a luxury car brand than a everyday joe vehicle. That's not to say they won't be successful in the long run. It's just overall interesting to watch play out. You need to stay away from the market period. You admit that you don’t get it, yet you continue to feel the need to voice your doubts about it on the internet. Why is this so common? If you spent some time investigating the company rather than writing comments like this, you’d see that their gross margins are now 3x GM’s and 6x Ford’s - all while only 2 of their 4 factories are operating; and even though there’s a chip shortage, they’re growing at over 50% year over year and are now producing 1 million vehicles per year. You’d also see that they’re more vertically integrated than any other car company and are revolutionizing manufacturing with software and robots. Tech + online marketplace/logistics = Amazon Tech + manufacturing = Tesla Betting on the future like every other stock in history. Well, at the end of the day today, Tesla is worth more than $1 Trillion. Tesla makes more than cars though. So, as stated earlier, it’s a bit disingenuous to compare them to GM/Ford etc who only make cars. So SHORT IT THEN. :) You’re so salty lol With Tesla though? Long term? Other car companies are quickly catching up. The new Porsche is an amazing car. Ford is electrifying it's fleet. The new trucks are generating a ton of buzz. I actually think this is terribly dumb as a rental car agency. What do people want with a rental? Freedom to explore without planning, known commuting between centres, potentially far away, a place to fuel/charge where their hotel is. None of these things seem to be a natural fit to an EV. Like, if I was going on a trip to Scotland or something, and had wanted to explore Around, no way in hell I would take an EV. I wouldn’t be familiar with the roads, the distance between stops, if my random air bnb would have a place to charge. Etc Or if you fly into a city for a work conference. Are you renting an EV? Does your hotel have space for you to charge? „What works for the apes can’t be bad for me“ I'm not arguing that Tesla shouldn't demand a higher valuation. Just they are valued too high. Take Ford, does 3x gain on margin demand a nearly 17x premium on the overall market cap? It seems like a lot. Like I mentioned in another comment, Tesla doesn't seem to be priced as a growth stock, but a stock that has already fulfilled its growth goals despite selling only a fraction of many of its competitors. >Surely, Apple can't be worth more than Nokia, RIM, and Palm combined, can they? Today or in 2005? Because if I recall correctly in the mid 2000s RIM and Apple were similarly priced based on market cap, and Apple did a hell of a lot more than RIM did. Because at the time the numbers supported relatively similar valuations. Right now Tesla investors seem investing assuming that this is an accurate price based on everything their roadmap, and some things that arent, coming to fruition. In my mind that is an exceptionally risky proposition. Just using this here, 10% increase based on 100,000 in unit sales? The contract would be worth 4.2B. How does that translate to 100B is new market cap value? Even if all the other major rental companies follow suit total value of the contracts would be like 20B. I'm not saying they dont deserve a healthy valuation, just that the numbers in my mind dont justify what its at right now. Except Tesla is not going to own half of the car market. Nor are they going to have an app-store where they can take fees off of every purchase made on the said store. Tesla’s a growing company with promising prospects, but its not going to dominate the entire car market, which the valuation already implies. Have they actually announced intentions of producing batteries for use outside of the Tesla umbrella? (Genuine question, I dont follow Tesla super closely) For now at least they dont seem to be able to make enough for internal use let alone to start manufacturing them for broad base applications. But even then, is the potential for Tesla to break into the general battery market as a major player enough to justify 3.6x preimum over Toyota? or a 6.8x premium on VAG? I'm not saying they dont deserve a healthy valuation but given their actual numbers it just seems out of proportion. Especially considering other battery manufacturers like LG arent seeing valuations like Tesla is. There is already a rechargable energy storage that actually recharges by itself. It's called hydroelectricity. What is the X 100 multiple? They aren't only selling cars though. Priced in that valuation is battery tech, AI tech, their solar energy business, and most importantly: the fact that they are attracting all the best engineering talent across their vertically integrated endeavors. 100x multiple casually Factories for who? Edit: genuine question as a google results are all about there own factories And come out of bankruptcy with $4.2 billion…happens to me all the time While I agree that VW is a giant, At the end of the day they are buying Tesla stock and not VW stock 32 now. 40x sales is the new 20x earnings Bingo. You are correcto Big words so absurd. [deleted] It’s a tequila company. [deleted] That‘s what they‘ve been saying for years Tesla is led by the Messiah of the 21st century. Everything the Messiah does is a billion dollar company. > I get it: Tesla is striving for something radically different while most other car makers are focused largely on EV drivetrains. Tesla is a tech company not a car company. Man, their marketing is really effective. Tesla is a car manufacturer doind the exact same things as other manufacturers of EVs. They make great cars, and Musk is a genius (IMO), but that still doesn’t justify their market cap. L.A./SoCal is inundated with Tesla drivers, it looks like everyone here is a regular Joe. Because the valuation implies that the majority of cars in the future will be made by Tesla, which is dumb [deleted] No, it's priced at more than $1 Trillion. Stock prices are not equal to value. Just because its not worth 1 trillion doesnt mean its value won't be above that for a long time. I think they clarifyed this isn't an exclusive deal. Have you driven those other cars? It’s not the same, I’m sorry. Tesla has them beat by a long margin. Good thing everyone can afford the Porsche. /s The reality is all of the existing offerings under 50k suck. Only Tesla is making a good affordable EV. The Mach-e, Leaf, Volt, ID.4 all suck. BMW and Porsche are good but out of 90% of peoples price range. This comment just goes to show how little most people know. Porsche will never manufacture a mass produced EV, especially at a cost that is profitable for a rental fleet. They are all about high margin luxury vehicles. Given that it is the new CEO of Hertz who completed this deal, who is also an ex-CEO of Ford, had to have intimate knowledge of Ford's EV strategy and still chose to go with Tesla. Lol they aren’t catching up, the mustang e? Tesla is dominating and who wants to rent a bolt ev ? Are they? The new ceo of hertz is a former Ford ceo. I’m quoting him: «Tesla is the only manufacturer that can produce EV’s at scale» Please Google the quote. This is coming for a top head at Ford Tesla’s margins will keep getting better. They currently have 2 massive factories that haven’t started production yet that are just hemorrhaging cash. Those factories will also usher in a number of novel technologies such as the structural battery pack with 4680 cells and the gigapress unibody which will drop costs by another couple thousand dollars per vehicle. Once the factories are ramped up, margins will go crazy. Then add 10k per car for FSD once that’s done. It’s not just about profit margins either. It about profit margins per deployed capital. Tesla can spend less money to make the same number of cars as legacy automakers, and wall street absolutely loves this since it means Tesla can grow faster than their competitors. [deleted] [deleted] Tesla can start to charging you each time you want to make a turn or when you want to use your break. At this point they're still not producing batteries sufficient for their automotive expansion, but their next product is battery manufacturing plants -- redesign from ground up to be both faster and cheaper to build plants and produce batteries faster and cheaper to make than any current designs allow. Terawatt-hour scale production is what they're shooting for and since full conversion of world energy use means 25 terawatt-hours per year for 25 years there's plenty of room for everybody to manufacture. Musk's intention is battery cell manufacture as fast and continuous as coke bottle manufacture for vastly less cost per factory than today. Tesla is a manufacturing facility manufacturer. Sure but it's inconvenient to carry a reservoir around with you. Or put one in a mountain. Having the ability to replace all the world's energy infrastructure with rechargeable batteries is a necessary byproduct of having all the world's vehicles converted to electric -- but we don't need to JUST use rechargeable batteries, we don't need to use 100% solar and wind. It's just that we CAN. Solar/rechargeable-battery is flexible, can be sustainable, is dropping in price and is scalable by manufacturing. It's **A** solution, not necessarily the solution we want to adopt 100%. Magical thinking? Conservative. On 2022 earnings for a company growing 50% a year. Yea definitely. Other alternative is projecting rev and earnings out to 2030, applying a lower multiple, and discounting back. Morgan Stanley gets it, $1,200 price target just assuming sub-30% growth. For those of you that are thinking it’s overvalued even for a tech company, remember that the formula is: Tesla valuation = valuation if Tesla was a car company + valuation if Tesla was a tech company not to be confused with some average of the two A tequila car tech company I thought they sold shorts? What is FSD? I’m not particularly educated regarding finance, but when I bought Tesla stock in 2013, I did it because I thought the “Tesla is way overvalued” narrative was ridiculous. And I did not have much to invest at the time. I never looked at it again for several years unless buying a few more shares here and there. Needless to say I often hear the same talking points every time the value increases. I’ve never understood the myopic view of Tesla just being a car company. Until they're ridden with a horrible disease and suddenly think 'yea, fruit will fix this.' Until it isn’t Lol I meant that facetiously….I’ve heard both sides to it and it’s me trying to quell people that get offended by suggesting Tesla may well be just another car maker with the same challenges and brain power Toyota Ford GM or VW have at their disposal. I think people think I’m making a bear case for Tesla and I’m not. I just don’t think they’ll be uprooting Toyota or Big 3 in the next 10-15yrs. I do however think they are the early sign of what will be standard in that time frame. Whether they will the be the best at those features time can only tell Have you seen a Tesla marketing campaign? Their cars are shit. I owned one for 9 months. Doors wouldn’t close. Damn thing leaked water through the windows and I could never get a proper alignment. DC, CA, NY are also places you need to be making 100k to living moderately comfortable. Tesla's stores themselves are always a stones throw away from a whole food . I'm curious to see what things will be like once their cars are a reality for majority of people in median salary levels (55k) Valuations are based on profit/vehicle, not vehicles sold. “Research reveals that Apple generated a whopping 42% of all smartphone revenue (estimated to be $113 billion) in Q1 2021, despite accounting for just 16.8% of global shipments.” Sound familiar? Yep, I made a year’s salary today, but please do keep doubting. You’re probably outsmarting the institutional investors who own 70% of shares. /s #mycultismorelucrativethanyourcult [deleted] They do in that moment. What percentage of cars on the road in 15 years time will be electric in your opinion? How many will be Teslas? Do more people buy Fords or Lamborghinis? Price is **the** biggest factor for most buyers. [deleted] Which cars specifically? Tesla doesn't have anything to compete with the lightning. I like the taycan better than a comparably priced tesla. Once we're below luxury segment, I think price will play a larger factor. Tesla has demonstrated extraordinary car innovation and built a real support infrastructure necessary to make electric functional, but the real point is Energy -- and specifically batteries. If we convert 90% of vehicles to electric, we will need the battery manufacture capability to replace ALL energy use with rechargeable storage that can be provided from any kind of generating source. That's a total re-work of the world's energy infrastructure and being a primary player in that is Tesla's end-game. The electric Mustang is a great car. Ford has absolutely caught up. They taycan is one of porsches top selling vehicles. This sub… Tesla only sells high margin luxury vehicles... What about the lightning or the maverick? That’s just not true unless they are ignoring hevs Just wait unti Lucid gets going How can tesla spend less money to make a car than, say, VW? Tesla failed automation completely so I don't see how that point is true? Then educate me. What has occurred today, outside of this highly publicized order, that would justify a 10% increase in share price in a single day of trading? I feel like people downvoting this are just ignorant of history. This poster isn't being hyperbolic, if you watched the talking heads back in the day this is all entirely on point. Tesla is less than 1.6% of the US car market. The US provides most of Tesla's sales. I don't foresee them taking over half of the entire car market, after it took them almost 20 years to get less than 2%. VW alone sells double the number of BEVs Tesla does in Europe. No one disputes that Tesla is a great company that beat the odds. That doesn’t make them a trillion dollar company though. What a hot take. A company that builds manufacturing facilities to make better and cheaper parts. Nobody’s ever done that before. They’re asking why you multiplied it by 100 Oh I thought it was valuation as a car company x valuation as a tech company x 10. [deleted] Context clues leads me to believe it’s fully self driving… or something along those lines… I don’t agree that Tesla is years ahead or investing at a higher rate than other people… or that it’s the only one who has access to top talent… every car and truck manufacturer on the planet realizes that the first mover in self driving will have a huge advantage… they are all invested in it… It’s also not just the technology that’s important, there is a ton to be done on the regulatory side of things, as a self driving car creates some interesting legal nightmares… If a car has to decide between driving off the road or running someone over, what should it pick? If it hits the pedestrian who is liable for it? This isn’t a simple “once they figure it out, it will be good to go” thing… it’s still 20 years down the road (per a VP at Audi, who might be wrong! But had at least seen the internal projections at Audi) and has lots of issues to address before we see it at scale. I think just *your* car was shit. Anecdotally speaking. You prob bought it from Walmart Cool. [deleted] EV is basically just MC + market value of debt - cash/equivalents (there are other elements, but these are the main ones). TSLA doesn't have much debt/cash so its EV will be close to its MC. I think the argument was more that TSLA's *intrinsic* value is lower than what the market is valuing it at. 180% of the cars on the road in 2036 will be Tesla’s according to the stock price. The vast majority will be EV. I mean just look at California. No ICE vehicles sold after 2035. Tesla has a massive lead in technology and ability to produce and deliver. The competition is really far behind. It’s easy to make a concept vehicle but no one has delivered even close to what Tesla has. I own the cars bud, don’t need to test drive I almost pulled the trigger on a taycan but end of the day the range really kills it. Tell me when lightning delivers en masse. Your personal opinion about taycan is not shared by the market. Have you driven both? They are nothing alike and the Tesla is far better from a mass-market perspective. There's being a major player, but Tesla is currently being priced like they're going to be the Standard Oil of electrification. It’s not just the car. It’s supercharger network, autopilot, software, etc. Ford isn’t even close. >They taycan is one of *porsches* top selling vehicles Keyword is *Porsche's* top selling vehicle. Porsche delivered 57,294 vehicle in 2020. That is EVERY vehicle, not just Taycan. Tesla delivered just under 500,000 vehicles in 2020. The point was Porsche will never compete with Tesla, they simply don't produce enough vehicles to ever even gain 1% of EV market share. No rental company will ever have this type of deal with them, because 1. they don't produce enough vehicles, and 2. the starting price is over $100k which would never be profitable as a rental. The only thing the Taycan will be competing with is the buyers of the Plaid Model S and Roadster. Tesla sells very low margin luxury vehicles. There is a big difference between a ""high margin luxury vehicle"" that starts at over $100k and sells 20k a year and a ""high margin luxury vehicle"" that starts at $40k and sells 400k a year What about them? They are years out, anyone can make a prototype production is hard. Not to mention the battery race …. “How do we democratize access to electric vehicles? That’s a very important part of our strategy,” Fields told Bloomberg. “Tesla is the only manufacturer that can produce EVs at scale.” hybrids are not the solution. They are expensive because of 2 motor systems. Inneficient because one motor always drags the other AND they do not benefit much from the declining cost curve of batteries. It will be a good crutch for legacy automakers because they could just strap a battery of X size on their existing lineup, name it ‘hybrid’ and call it a day. But it’s just that, a crutch. BEV sticker price will get so low that no one wants to buy a hybrid They tried to automate too heavily at first during model 3 launch. Things like taking two cables and connecting them are particularly difficult for robots to do, so they scrapped those robots and replaced them with humans. Meanwhile they haven’t stopped innovating and two gigapresses are going to replace 2/3 of the robots (1/3 for front casting and 1/3 for rear casting) on their production line. Gigapress> https://youtu.be/1l3mmD_zYFw The market is demonstrating its confidence that tesla will be able to secure 10 similar deals (or equivalent in market share growth) before the competition can catch up. The markets don't represent the present, they represent the future. ""It's all priced in"" You realize all this was achieved due to hype and not actual results right? Because elon /s I understood, but thanks. It’s due to high growth (50% a year), high and expanding margins, and high and expanding ROIC. No it's valuation as a car company raised to the power of the valuation as a tech company. But what if Toyota originally created Snapchat from the beginning. Your analogy doesn’t exactly work here I’m sad to say. Dude, those smart smart Tesla people are crushing it! Maybe you should turn down the condescension just a touch ""feeling cute, might discharge later."" -your Prius Judging by the questions you’re asking and that you had to gather from context what FSD was an acronym for, I can tell you straight out as someone that has been heavily researching this for the last five years that you’re wrong on all accounts. The questions you’re asking have been answered years ago, and Tesla is BY FAR way ahead of FSD research than any other company. That is evidenced by its ridiculously overpriced stock (if you base stock price on P/E). FSD is still several years out, but certainly not 20 years. And you’re an idiot The stock price would need to drop to $55 for me to lose anything. I’m pretty sure I’ll be okay. 👍 Buy Puts then Do you really think Tesla will capture and keep a majority of the auto market long term? Kind of like how there were twenty phone manufacturers but Apple made the first decent touchscreen and ran away with half of the entire market to this day.... The risk of innovation can be rewarding [deleted] [deleted] They are SHIT cars > Have you driven both? I've ridden in both. > They are nothing alike Agreed. The porsche seems much better from an engineering and fit & finish perspective. You can also get it repaired unlike my BIL who has been waiting months for his Tesla to be fixed. > Tesla is far better from a mass-market perspective. Not in the meet ups I've been to. The Porsche seems to get much more attention unless it's a Plaid, which is a totally different animal than other Teslas. > Tell me when lightning delivers en masse OK RemindMe! 7 Months Tell me when the Cyber Truck actually ships And here we are. Telsa is likely going to cut 10% of their workforce. No cybertruck, no roadster, no semi. Hybrid ford truck is shipping, EV ford truck is shipping and in fact sold out, and many other automakers are now shipping or have committed dates for shipping EV solutions in pretty much every segment. Meanwhile, Mr. Elon is ranting on twitter about liberals in an attempt to distract from harassment lawsuits. TSLA is down 20% compared to the S&P YTD. Lightning is 6 months away, but the Maverick isn’t a BEV so who knows what they meant. Link to article https://www.autonews.com/automakers-suppliers/hertz-under-interim-ceo-mark-fields-orders-100000-tesla-vehicles-end-2022 ""is set to"" But… he just said if you take all the other rental companies, you still don’t get anywhere near 100B…. Which metrics haven't been growing substantially year on year? What results are you alluding to. Ha not a bad idea, his companies seem to be doing alright Making money with bubbles should always be condensed to, bc they pop. And the darn government then bail them out bc “too big to fail”. !remindme 5 years do we have self driving cars? I’m not the one who bought it from Walmart The market can stay irrational a lot longer than I can remain solvent. Think Citadel and GME I can think that Tesla is overvalued by an order of magnitude, but that doesn't magically make the price go down. Too scared lol Majority? No. But i think people are looking at what Apple did with cell phones. I'm not saying thats the correct way of looking at it, just that people are. Except it didn't. Apple market share in smartphones has been consistently between 12 and 21%, with 15% as of Q2 2021, with relatively ""new"" manufacturers constantly gaining more market share. This means if we use your example to extrapolate to the automobile market there will be new companies in the near future that will take very big chunk of Tesla's market share in EV. Having said that, automobile market is a bit different - we already have huge companies like VW and Ford (but not only those) which have the means to built (or have already done/started) EV production lines + have the know how in automobile manufacturing. VW can easily dump the prices in their biggest markets and produce (and sell) much more than Tesla - especially in Europe. In Asia we'll most probably see a lot of new EVs from Toyota, but also Kia etc. And the biggest advantage of all those cars? They will be priced much better than Tesla. Because, even though Americans on Reddit might think otherwise, most of the people in other countries have it much worse than an average US citizen and simply can't afford Tesla. But an electric VW replacing a Golf or maybe electric Corolla? That's a totally different story. Yeah I don’t think the ones with 300 mile long extension cords will sell that well. 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That's why there ""equivalent market share"" in parenthesis. It isn't just rental companies buying cars, a lot of other industries are. Remember the tesla semi still isn't even up yet. Imagine the markets that would open up for tesla, especially if and when FSD comes online. When was Tesla bailed out by the government? Tesla has self driving cars now. They’re just not perfect, or FULL self driving. Even Google had self driving many years ago. However what Google and other current car companies are using is based on LiDAR, which is what Tesla determined was insufficient and rewrote everything using a combo of vision based, LiDAR and ultrasonic sensors. You seem to miss the fact that Tesla lacks the infrastructure to keep up with anywhere near the level of growth required to ""take over"" the car market. Tesla built 237k vehicles in Q3 2021... annualized, that's less than 1 million cars.. The global car market is around 100m vehicles. Why would they? Yeah i was exaggerating but Apple took everyone by surprise with the iphone and Tesla is doing the same thing as is very evident with their stock. Of course Tesla won’t be the biggest EV seller forever and the stock is ridiculous but they’re going to take advantage of the publicity as long as they can and if they keep making the right moves, they can easily dominate the EV market for years to come. [deleted] Let me explain again. Gigapress is not some tesla magic, they are only using it for half the frame and later they might be able to do both. But they're missing the panels....man stop believing all the hype and look at the facts When will they be? When they fuck up. They are on their way to being too big to fail. Which has absolutely nothing to say about their competency, just like the banks being bailed out after the housing bubble burst, they were too interlinked with the government pocketbook to crash and burn. This is basically the same trajectory of Tesla. I’m old enough to remember when a guy got decapitated by an ICC bumper because Tesla’s are programmed to ignore large stationary objects that seem far away because billboards were creating issues with the self driving features. Full autonomous driving is hard… there are lots of little things that need to be addressed. Just depends on what your goals are for when we are going to reach them… I didn’t say it was true. I’m saying it’s what people are looking at They’re goal was increasing infrastructure by 50% YOY. They’ve already beat that goal this year by then end of Q3. Next year two enormous gigafactories will be online. Estimates are 5m vehicles a year by 2025. 20m by 2030. Hybrids also have batteries Not sure where you explained it the first time. Tesla is making both front and rear castings at Berlin and Austin, so they will do both in addition to structural battery pack when those plants come online. There is no doubt about that. Yes, you’re right that panels still need to be added. No one claimed they’re printing entire cars. This fact does not detract from the enormous cost savings the gigapress will generate. It wasn’t the banks that caused the bubble it was the government forcing the banks to loan money to people with bad credit. BEV has a specific meaning, it's a sub category under EV. Tesla's are BEVs, hybrids EVs, but are not BEVs. Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are EVs, but not BEVs. enormous cost savings? Giga press requires aluminum. Trad auto makers use stamped steel for a reason, i.e. its cheaper than aluminum. There's nothing stopping them from using the same approach that tesla is using because gigapress is from IDRA (italian company). So I am wondering where you see those enormous cost savings over their competitors. You might want to check how the price of steel has changed compared to aluminum over the last year. Just look at teslas q3 net income of 1.6 billion vs GM at 2.5 B and Ford at 2.8 B. Tesla’s gross margins are already 6x GM’s and 3x Fords. Please back up any future responses with some sort of quantitative evidence. someones been watching the limiting factor" This is what the Financial Times displays when there’s an error 404,1726,https://i.imgur.com/23HOtFb.jpg,"[deleted] This is awesome. Too many companies miss the fact that 404 is an opportunity to put something in front of an interested party. Rather than throw it away, embrace it. Knowledge and humor go a long way. This will keep people coming back to the site. Whatever page you were looking for, this is better I died when I read moral hazard. You know what they say: You ask 10 economists for their opinions and you'll get 11 answers. Damn. I posted this 3 years ago in r/mildlyinteresting and got 0 coverage. Thanks for posting it here. https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/comments/7vjtar/the_financial_times_404_page_teaches_you_about/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf Learnt more about economics on this meme than anywhere else lol. Incredible i fucking love it. As usual, they don't agree That burn from EMH haha The Moral Hazard one is hilarious. It's much longer on mobile (adds Marxism, Malthusianism, Laissez faire, and a bunch of others) FT is great. Only news I subscribe to anymore. I still dont get keynesian This is great! Clever True. You had a bad class :( You're fist fucking me, Icegoose. #ONE OF US I can imagine that a lot of companies choose to leave the page as generic tech-blah-blah so that the error isn't associated with them - people might (sub-consciously) blame ""the internet"", rather the website designers. This is better than 95% of the stuff posted on /r/finance Wished other websites had this amount of creativity. RIP in Pareto Inefficiency wait this isn't even the whole list? this is great Keynesian economics is effectively the exact opposite of the “build it and they will come” mentality. Essentially, people won’t produce in excess of demand because it’s disadvantageous from a business perspective to invest in something people don’t want. And one step further, to say that a demand signal needs to be sent to increase production. So in this example, not enough wanted to see a page for someone to invest in developing it. Essentially Demand drives Supply. [deleted] Tbh most of the economics/investment subs...and that's not a criticisms merely an observation. This was educational rather then the usual hype Aeyy Reddit. The bureaucracy can be exhausting. But wouldn't that just be the ""Supply and Demand""? In your second paragraph, was it 'excess' or the opposite? Just say John Maynard Keynes 3 times and you’re all set. So now you’re kinda getting into the more detailed aspects of it. Keynes is really a macroeconomic theory that essentially says that if you want to grow an economy, the government should pull levers to juice demand to encourage suppliers to build more, which will cause more people to be employed, which will let people spend more, thus allowing the new juiced economy to run without additional government stimulus. To your point in “isn’t this just supply and demand” it is, but it’s argument for why the government should artificially create demand in the economy. Again this is very high level, but it was a theory that came out of the Great Depression and was to help pull the economy out of its apparent rut. Ah I get it, thank you 👌 as a layman, I need that high level explanation first before I'm interested to get down to it, and wikipedia doesn't offer straight high level answer (as you put it), that's why I'm confused. Now I get what the memes about keynesian econ mean lol, and why some people oppose it. It came out during the great depression, but in these days and age, instead of government, could the theory be used to argue that non-government agency, say a really big NGOs/nonprofits, can also fulfill that role of artificially creating demand? That sounds stupid but am just curious, am sure people have discussed it It can get controversial (and political) when you take the theory and try to apply it for that reason. Is it better for the government to just spend on government programs to build the economy, should you incentivize people or should the onus be on someone else? Will people save the money instead of spending it? Will the government be able to responsibly balance its debts if they have to stimulate an economy? Does the economy have enough production capacity to meet the injection of demand or will that just cause inflation as prices rise? As for NGOs even the biggest have such a narrow focus that it would difficult, if not impossible for them to stimulate a broad economy. I personally find macroeconomics fascinating, for this exact reason. How to do you balance monetary and fiscal policy to achieve these goals?" China Delays Indefinitely the Release of G.D.P. and Other Economic Statistics,1687,https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/17/business/china-gdp-delay.html,"Weird that they wouldn't just make up the statistics they want and publish those This bodes well for Chinese yuan as a world currency. 🤡🤡🤡 “Our economy is so great, we wanted to hide our numbers to keep everyone else from feeling too bad” CCP convention comin’ up! Y’all bury that bad news quick. Sounds like the 10 year plan is going exactly as, errr, planned. They need more time to fudge the numbers. Like when they reported 0 COVID cases Russia: currently in month 7 of a 3 day “special military operation” against a militarily inferior nation. Have lost 60,000 + to combat and 200,000+ have fled. Completely embarrassed on world stage and facing economic hardship. Not to mention the demographic consequences of losing 100,000+ young men when their population is already in negative growth with too many old people and more women than men Iran: embroiled in largest mass protests, bordering uprising, since the founding of the Islamic republic. Whether or not protests are quelled, an entire generation is now opposed to the government and understands many others are also opposed to the government. Government has resorted to killing protesters and internet shutdowns as a last resort. Iran’s government now appear weak, chaotic, and authoritarian almost as if a corned animal on its last legs China: banking crisis, mass covid lockdowns, economic downturn for the first time in decades, threats towards taiwan not taken seriously by anyone as the west calls their bluff and sends politicians to Taipei, also whatever the fuck this is Really bad time to be an American enemy right now, guess we’re staying the only superpower for a few more decades. Even the nice parts of Europe are doing worse than us ffs Easy to lie to their own citizenry , in a Communist nation , not so easy to lie to the world , so ........they decided not to China's stats were never particularly reliable. More coverage at: * [China's delay of its third-quarter GDP data release augurs ill for its economy (news.yahoo.com)](https://news.yahoo.com/chinas-delay-third-quarter-gdp-090200158.html) * [China Delays Q3 GDP Data Release (markets.businessinsider.com)](https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/interestrates/china-delays-q3-gdp-data-release-1031810173) * [China’s economy improved significantly in Q3, official says (marketwatch.com)](https://www.marketwatch.com/story/china-s-economy-improved-significantly-in-third-quarter-official-says-271665977930?mod=mw_latestnews) --- ^(I'm a bot to find news from different sources.) [^(Report an issue)](https://www.reddit.com/user/MultiSourceNews_Bot/comments/k5pcrc/multisourcenews_bot_info/) ^(or PM me.) Probably just spending extra time confirming the accuracy of their numbers. Right? China will never come close to being a true economic powerhouse like the economies of the west, and I think it’s comical that people actually think their economy has a real, sustainable future in its current form. There is absolutely zero trust in literally anything coming out of the CCP. Classic case of a paper tiger. You need facts and accurate data to thrive in this world. China has none of that. That could only mean it's real bad lol This doesn't seem at all suspicious. I was expecting another %45 GDP gain.... /s “Money is just a meaningless number who cares. Monopoly dollars” - Winnie the Pooh When cooking the books is no long an option, you fuck the book WTAF? Nothing out of there is believable! Hahaha good! Fuck the ccp The next “superpower” The world is always in turmoil. If not the Middle East it’s Eastern Europe or Africa. China is secretive, Russia assertive and Iran is repressive. We do well to manage our own issues. According to some market analysts we may not have a recession in 2023. While it may just be stagflation. It’s all too confusing as to where things will be in 2023. All the best to everyone. Remember when Apple stopped releasing their iPhone sales numbers? Sounds like a house of cards I guess they got tired of lying about these anyway? Like, what's the point, nobody believes it anyway, so, let's not even update it. [deleted] They've been tampering their economic data for decades to make it seem better. Don’t worry guys, CCP says everything’s fine! “Zhao Chenxin, the deputy director of the National Development and Reform Commission, had taken an upbeat tone about the Chinese economy during a news conference on Monday morning at the media center of the party congress. “Judging from the current situation, the economy rebounded significantly in the third quarter — from a global perspective, China’s economic performance is still outstanding,” he said. After the close of trading on Chinese stock exchanges on Monday afternoon, the National Bureau of Statistics canceled its quarterly news conference, which had been scheduled for Tuesday morning, and updated its online calendar of data releases to show many categories as “delayed.” Another agency, the General Administration of Customs, had separately failed on Friday to follow its own previously issued schedule for the release of export and import statistics for September. The release of those numbers has also been delayed indefinitely.” Typical cooking the books as China does. As is tradition. They see the writing on the wall and have no plan to fix the issues. China has an aging population that will put a strain on resources and the younger generation is more education and have better access to wealth. At some point they're going run out of bodies for cheap labor and need to transition to a service/ tech economy. Why didn't they just lie like usual? I guess continuing lockdowns is going great for them! If any other country does that no one would try to do business with them… This shit is crazy. Global crash invoming The guy that ran Hong Kong for Britain always refused to release economic data. He feared companies using it to argue for favorable laws. Didn't they cannibalize the savings of the populace? There \*is\* no GDP. It’s that good eh? holy shit Wonder why… Uhhh holy shit? And yet the market opens in the green today Rut roh raggy. Is this proof that the chinese economy has been destroyed? And if so, by destroyed, what does that even mean? Their data has always been highly suspect - not too surprising. I am not sure what they are thinking, but this is like telling everyone with a loud speaker that china's economy is going down the toilet We can only hope what they release is as accurate as their COVID statistics Delay because need better lies - Xi I imagine this is because they're doing very poorly compared to the US and adversaries are doing everything to limit biden and thus democrats ability to govern. the ol Rugssia How North Korean of you Must’ve been a really good report and they’re just showing humility by not sharing. Aw! I hate when they cancel my favorite shows! What consequences will this cause to their international trade or membership? Ooops also misplaced a few hundred million on the census. BAbA will moon. The government already announced earlier this year they wouldn't hit the 5.5% growth target and real growth is around 3.3% Not sure why people think this news is something so alarming Weird how this is both trending and getting buried by reddit in real time, I've never seen it before. Hmm sounds fishy In fairness, the world never actually believe their published number, or only use them as a general guide. Stupid paywall news casting. Anyone able to write out the article???? GIT OUT OF THE HARDER FARM. GOAN. GIT. You can’t trust their numbers even when they do report them. What fuckry Why do we hear about the inevitable rise of Chinas GDP to go above US GDP while also simultaneously seeing this. Aren’t those things contradictory? Lol Its so bad they cant even fudge things to make it semi legit anymore Big tail-risk of devaluing their currency more if global analysts lose all faith in Chinese economic statistics; not going to say that this is a good idea for Chinese regulators, but it’s valid. Edit: for anyone thinking there don’t exist informed believers in Chinese economic supremacy, just look at Ray Dalio. China can’t afford to lose those stalwart economic supporters right now. > Weird that they wouldn't just make up the statistics they want and publish those It's a well known fact that 86% of all statistics are pulled out of the speaker's ass on the spot. The argument here is the party congress is so important that they don't want disruptions of any sorts. It is extremely likely they will eventually release it. As for the juvenile comments on this thread, the NDRC guy already said there was a noticeable pick up in Q3, and if you don't want to believe him, you can look at the forecasts from all the foreign banks etc. Consensus estimates at about 3.4% growth. Finally, there's also no massive impact for this. The simple reason is a lot of other data points have been released so you can guess quite accurately what the GDP is likely to be anyway I worked for Xinese owned company (in SE Asia) and saw with my own eyes how all stats were faked before an important board and investor meeting. I quit the same week. Not going to be a part of this shit. Lying and faking is in their blood and conscience. It ain't in mine. They've since grown to be a multi billion dollar valued enterprise. We don't need China's official GDP numbers. We can check historical air quality in cities in China, which indicates manufacturing activity. Scroll down to historical air quality and notice (for all different cities) how it's barely showing any pollution now vs past years. And this isn't because China is burning less coal lol. https://aqicn.org/city/beijing/ Hard to do that when you're a major exporter You can only do that so much. Then even you don't believe yourself. Was never going to happen Yet there are countless self-hating Americans that will argue that the Yuan will replace the USD as a global reserve currency soon 🤣 Paraphrasing Ray Dalio himself- to be the reserve currency you have to open your books for everyone to examine and also property for foreign buyers. China would never do it. 😂 some idiots legitimately believe this would work. Makes sense. /s Is this a trump quote ? No you can't meet them, our GDP numbers go to a different school sounds like RF armed forces Excuse but the numbers are being audited. Same auditors that trump used. Yup, waiting for the next five years thumbs up before releasing the bad growth numbers. Not a mystery with what’s going on. Or when they reported their inflation has been a flat, picture perfect 2% when it was spiking towards or above 10% for the rest of the industrialized world. UK: “Hold my beer” Always bet on the USA. proud to be an american CIA smiles and says “mischief managed”* Not to be a douche, but the USA isn't looking too good right now either. * Supreme court is stacked with conservative and religious nutjobs overruling historic precedents; * Elections are contested and both parties accuse each other of fraud; * Climate change measures are forbidden by the supreme court (like wtf? I can't even?) * Runaway inflation. Which is only sort of okayish, because inflation in Europe is even higher so the Dollar is strong. To be fair, climate change will eventually fuck us all so we are equally fucked in the long run It’s quite easy to make a similar list for the US and their Allies as well. Whole world going through a reordering from these current and upcoming crises. Edit - LoL, I’m from the States, these downvotes are a bit ridiculous. We are entering a recession, on the brink of a potential civil war, have an energy crisis, labor crisis, insanely unequal distribution of wealth, and more discord than I’ve seen my whole life. You can point to our peers and laugh or judge, but don’t be blind to the mirror either. Decades? Lots of things happen within a couple of years now. Tech really accelerates the process. I like how you try and minimize China but have you seen how badly them and Russia are fucking with your political system? The US is much closer to collapse than China lol. End of History?? 200k fled? Try more like 800k+ > Even the nice parts of Europe are doing worse than us ffs Nice is overrated nowadays, there are too many tourists and if you like to practice speaking French most people around you will just speak English. The city has become quite expensive if you want to live there speaking about the house prices. You’d be surprised how potent that propaganda is, I can’t tell you how many people I come across that swear China has the strongest economy in the world 🙄 I don't think being Communist has anything to do with Goverment lying to citizens but also China isn't even Communist. They wanted to triple check Mainland China *could* be as successful as Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan. The manufacturing capacity of the Pearl River Delta could have gotten them most of the way there. In order to fight the rampant corruption they could have replicated institutions of law and order from Hong Kong in the rest of China. Instead, they chose Xi as a leader, and his ego meant they had to destroy that missing part of the puzzle to continued economic success rather than use it. Especially since covid, a lot of the West has started to divest from China. Being the center of cheap manufacturing is literally starting to disappear as we speak. It’s on the path to returning to its pre-globalization days… Hahaha I like the way you think The beginning of the end of Globalization. Going to be an interesting decade. Glad I'm on the right continent! *to the tune of Rock Me Amadeus* Peter Zeihan Peter Zeihan Doot do-do-do This is exactly it. There are still numbers around trade where outside parties can verify and there are also places like China Beige Book printing pretty accurate numbers. They can only fudge so much What are they hiding? When you have so much and for so long that nothing works anymore; this is quite bad. How will the capital markets price risk and return in this market? They can’t. Which means cost of capital will increase greatly which makes all their industries less efficient plus this will cause a capital flight (worse than before) resulting in a continuous spiral of crack downs by this crazy government. In summary buy Singapore property that hasn't been an issue for Vlad and his 'referendum' results If I’m not mistaken he just recently announced he was stepping aside as co-CIO at Bridgewater. Maybe he *does* see the writing on the wall? I’m sure he’s in way too deep to be able to do much to mitigate the financial damage but the timing sure seems like he’s trying to minimize the damage to his investment reputation. “Statistics are like bikinis - very revealing, but they also hide the important parts.” 60% of the time it work every time. Theranos, Nikola, etc There's crooks in every country. Greed knows no borders That logic is absolute BS. To begin with, Beijing isn't even a manufacturing/industrial hub, so pollution there won't mean 💩 China has been moving to green energy and is currently the world leader in the sector, aiming to hit 25% of their energy demands from green energy by 2030. Ofc pollution is going to be reduced as more green energy is introduced and different industries updated to meet requirements. Air pollution has been decreasing in china steadily for the last 10 years while the economy has actually grown. Check it for yourself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollution_in_China#Air_pollution If you want to trash Chinese economy at least base it on something that makes sense But Pooh promised! Fucking losers. Take China’s dick out of their mouths. Doomer mentality seems more common with young people. Edit: actually I changed my mind. I've heard more China-fear from boomers rather than younger folks. Note: I'm not someone who thinks the yuan might replace the USD as reserve currency. I don't think you had to be 'self-hating' over the last decade to raise an eyebrow at America's macroeconomic instability and China's rising growth. Turning the global currency market into a pissing contest for national pride is asinine. Don't be some chest-thumping pre-teen. Be rational. A little example. The dollar's rising strength right now can mostly be put down to the fact that after the Fed raised T-bill interest rates, debtors worldwide want to get rid of whatever T-bill debt they have in USD before rates rise even higher, meaning debtors chase dollars on foreign exchange markets, thereby raising dollars' exchange price. That's not exactly a picture of long-term dollar strength; it's a picture of people who have used USD as reserve currency in the past trying to hold dollars in the short-term so that they can reject dollars in the long-term. That doesn't mean that the USD is going to stop being the world's reserve currency any time soon. But it does mean that anyone who takes a cold, clear-headed look at the overall picture might have concerns, without being 'self-hating'. Dalio is the one that insists the Yuan will surpass the USD as the reserve currency right? 😂 About as much sense as the Yuan becoming a global currency at this rate ""I like this Yuan guy, someone I can do business with"" And our government claims inflation was transitory and that were not in a recession even though GDP has shrunk two quarters now. We're on speedrun any% :( where at least I know I'm free Yeah - amazing how we tricked Russia into invading Ukraine and convinced the Chinese to prioritize militant nationalism over pragmatic capitalism. Yeah us!!! I wish lmao, would be nice to believe the CIA were that cool. But they’re busy giving LSD to homeless people to see what would happen So your last point by your own admission is something that the US isn’t facing alone and is actually doing a little better than the rest of the world Of the other three, two are due to an American institution, the Supreme Court. As much as that is legitimately a point of contention within America, I think your descriptions of the issue are a little hyperbolic at best. For one, the religious thing is a moot point. The constitution explicitly forbids any sort of religious test for public office and Supreme Court justices have just as much of a right to practice as anyone else. Despite hot internet takes, not one Supreme Court case has actually mandated any sort of religious practice. All the ones revolving around religion, have revolved around the right to practice in private, like the high school football coach who wanted to pray before practice. I personally believe that the case was decided wrongly and would rather keep public schools and religion as far away from each other as possible, but the fact that the guy can now pray before a football game is so low on my list of problems that I haven’t thought about it until right now. On the political point, SCOTUS is definitely more conservative than it has been in a while, you’re absolutely right there. I personally think that the dobbs case, which I assume is the historical precedent you’re referring to, was also not something I would have personally decided. However, that is legitimately one of, if not the, most contentious issue in America right now and that is saying a lot because it isn’t anywhere near as existential a threat to people as war or cost of living increases. Abortion has not been made illegal, it has been delegated once again to the states. I would like to see every state legalize it, but as it stands now, [66% of Americans live in a state with legal abortion](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/08/22/more-trigger-bans-loom-1-3-women-lose-most-abortion-access-post-roe/). The states are also still Democratic with regular elections, Kansas, for example, recently reaffirmed the right to abortion by election and should there be popular support to reinstate abortion rights in the illegal states, then they are one election away from doing so The climate change measures made forbidden is also not true. You’re referring to EPA v West Virginia here. In that case the Supreme Court didn’t say that you can’t have climate change regulations, but that any regulations need to come from congress, an elected legislature, as opposed to the whim of unelected Bureaucrats in the EPA. You can have climate change laws, you just need to get them through the democratic processes of congress like every other law. We recently passed the largest climate investment in American history a few months ago, billions of dollars in climate investment from electric cars to wind farms. Supreme Court didn’t say a word because that passed fair and square through congress The election fraud thing is the one I agree with you on. I think that’s probably the most pressing issue facing our nation. Luckily, there haven’t been many actual consequences of these fraud allegations. All the legal challenges have been rejected unanimously (by the same Supreme Court responsible for the other two things, turns out an independent judiciary is actually a good thing) and no elected official has actually been successful in challenging their election loss. [deleted] I’m with ya. Make a similar list for the US and their allies then. America has its fair share of issues but I can’t think of anything nearly equivalent to the war in Ukraine, banking crisis/covid lockdowns, heating and energy crisis, mass uprisings, etc. The average American will spend the winter debating whether or not abortion rights should be a state-issue or a national right not choosing between heating bills or this months groceries Americas status as the largest gas and oil producer on earth spares us from thinking about heating and energy, we are at peace for the first time in 20 years, inflation rates are high but similar to the rest of the world, vast majority agree that covid is in the past, and there are no violent uprisings. The news here has either been dominated by Ukraine/Iran or internal policy debates like abortion and guns. I legitimately can’t think of an issue that holds a candle to what the rest of the world is dealing with Typical “whatabotism” Article points out China refusing to release critical financial data; even when the West has been embarrassed for releasing theirs. But nope, this person is more worried about maintaining commie propaganda about the West and the US being on China’s level 😒 Because our ability to just pump more gas and Russia invading Ukraine after the US called it is equal. You don’t understand nuance. “Civil war” sure bud You’re acting like it’s a given that other countries are developing and using that tech and that we’d somehow not have access. For the most part, American companies, or at least American allies, are the ones that create that tech. If Silicon Valley sinks tomorrow then yeah I’d get your point but we’re usually the international early adopters The delusion of central planning. Ha Ha........ Huh???? If you think that shyt is funny go tell Taiwan ! Communism nations are places no no wants to be in but the rich and members of the party, high ranking members of the Communist Party; [https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/communist-countries](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/communist-countries) [https://www.britannica.com/question/Which-countries-are-communist](https://www.britannica.com/question/Which-countries-are-communist) [https://www.worldatlas.com/which-countries-are-still-communist.html](https://www.worldatlas.com/which-countries-are-still-communist.html) Good Yup, fudging numbers about the economy are really hard because it can be measured in so many different ways. Tough to hide the price of a Big Mac for instance Will Cbina suffer any credibility loss in the short term since imo, no amount of people can seem to be completely ever convinced that China has become a rather unreliable financial entity? Keqiang index goes brr Why kids like the taste of cinnamon toast crunch That they're fucked I would guess disturbingly large spending on defense, but I'm paranoid All those big fund are being held hostage, the amount of capital they invested in China it’s insane. That it’s why they go out and praise China so much. They got greedy and invested in a authoritarian country thinking they will eventually become an open economy. But they where wrong and they are worried big time. Only big funds that are not invested there as much speak openly about the issues in China and the government. His transition away from being co-CIO has been planned for years. He still holds his shares in the fund, remains on the board, and will be mentoring the remaining CIOs of the fund. Are also often pulled out your ass. Well I guess then it's okay. Actually pollution is a great indicator of industrial and port activity when compared to previous timeframes, but you apparently didn't compare 2019 levels to 2022 from the manufacturing/port cities of Tianjin, Shanghai, Shenzhen, cuz you were you lazy and just looked at the Beijing landing page I spoonfed you. Yet you jumped all over my thesis because China is ""so much cleaner now"", what a fucking joke. As of 2022, China burns 50% of the coal burned in the entire world, but even if this amount has dropped over 10 years, it's immaterial to my thesis that industrial and port activity has significantly dropped after covid lockdowns began, which implies a lower GDP. Don't bother responding again cuz I won't engage. Unless there's a democrat in office, then suddenly America is a failed state that's riddled with crime. I thought the rising rates made it so that foreign investors wanted to buy more Tbills and therefore needed to get US dollars in order to make the purchase. If existing t-bills were simply transacted between foreign investors, the party buying the t-bill would need dollars to buy it but once the party selling it received the dollars they might be inclined to convert it back to their country's currency unless they are speculating on a strengthening dollar and hold the currency. I don't know this for certain, and it's been my experience that sometimes understanding money is a bit counterintuitive, but I would think that increased interest rates on US bonds mean that foreign investors have an increased desire to hold them (as compared to lower interest rate bonds in their own countries), which net increases the demand for US dollars. That trend then causes their national currency to weaken because of exchange flows, but then their national governments tend to sell US bonds to essentially do the opposite in an effort to strengthen their national currency. To me it would seem that individual foreign investors on the whole are likely buying more US bonds while their governments are selling them. One would think eventually their governments would run out of US bonds to sell, at which point their currency probably gets hit harder. For an added layer of doom, one does have to wonder how much the strengthening dollar is masking US inflation. I suspect in the long run foreign countries will be forced to raise interest rates, or the fed will have to lower them. I suspect in the long run that people will find the purchasing power of exchanging financial assets for actual goods and services will be reduced, and that happens either through flat financial asset prices coupled with goods/services inflation, or reduced financial asset prices with no inflation. (And everything in between) The problem you end up with is if a lot of asset prices are nominally falling you end up with a desire to sell them and hold currency which sets up a deflationary spiral. All that being said I'm sure what I said is still a super condensed and simplified way of viewing it and that there are a lot more moving parts in the system than I'm aware of. He's a clown. I worked at his ""successful"" hedge fund. Greg Jensen has been running the brains at Bridgewater for a while, while Dalio sucks up to China in order to sell a hedge fund to investors there. They've been using the same risk parity strategy for 30 years, a strategy that Dalio claiming credit for, despite it being discovered by academia. Seriously, you can learn the strategy in a few hours and, with access to the same market data as Bridgwater, would be able to replicate easily. Best recession I’ve ever been in. Bought a bunch of new furniture at a great price, new clothes, moved into a nicer newer place, and thinking about buying a new EV with the tax credit democrats just passed. Got a bunch of money in the bank too. Sure my retirement savings are taking a hit but once the market bottoms out I’m going to increase my contributions and I’ve got a few decades before I retire so plenty of time before I need to cash out. https://www.nber.org/research/business-cycle-dating These are the people who say when a recession happens, if you actually want to know how they decide when we are in a recession you should read that. Spoiler alert, “two negative quarters of gdp growth” isn’t how it is defined nor has it ever been. If you take a introductory economics class they will call that phrase the headline indicator and emphasize that it means nothing. There’s a difference between being deceitful and being wrong. The US government was wrong. They thought they could reel in inflation and couldn’t. The CCP is deceitful. They know their economy is a house of cards and are trying to avoid it coming crashing down. Inflation would have been transitory if it was not for Russia war and China permanent zero covid policy 😢 Savage 😂 And I won't forget the men who died Found the tankie lmao So you’re blaming America for Russia’s nearly 20 years of land grabbing that lead up to the current war in Ukraine? Also the communist take over of China in ‘49? Someone’s been listening to too much propaganda… [Russia has been invading Ukraine since before the US existed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koliivshchyna) We don’t wanna to hear that. We don’t wanna see or read the story from Beginning but in the middle or end where atleast we don’t who stirred shit up lol Couldn’t you argue though, that the election fraud point is mute, since most of it has been pushed by foreign instigators (ie China, Russia and Iran)? They have been pretty open about causing a division. I agree with your thought process for each point. You accurately pointed out that the desire of the people can be written into law by elected officials. My issue is with election regulation. Not fraud, but the laws that determine voting eligibility, the structure of voting districts (see: gerrymandering), and education of the youth who will become voters. I think this issue will impact the USA for and time to come. I would say that we will have an opportunity to compare how each states fairs with these policies but unfortunately all the states passing restrictions are at the absolute bottom of the social standards and education barrel as it is, so it’s not like we will ever learn anything. looking at the way Texas and Florida are deciding to legislate abortion, it kind of is Look how strong the dollar has held up through all of this! It speaks volumes of its strength I did in another comment. Don’t get me wrong, our ship is holding up better than others in this storm, but don’t ignore the leaks and cracks. You’re right, I simp for Poo Bear. LoL My point is that tech accelerates change. Decades? Plural? So like 20+ years? 20 years ago was 2002. That's 1 year after 9/11. We've gone through 4 Presidents. iPhone was still 5 years away. We were still using 2G technology (I think). Google was still a startup. Just making a point on how much as changed in decades. In just 1 decade, our entire way of life will be different than today just like it's different 10 years ago from today. I’ve heard people using oil consumption which was crushed due to lock downs. Idk if it’s a capable measure this past year. Can’t suffer credibility losses when you never had credibility to begin with Yes, but there's too much money involved. what credibility does Xina have? I didn't say it was OK, I just said there's crooks everywhere. Saying ""Lying and faking is in their blood and conscience"" is a very ignorant generalisation of 1.4 billion people Is your point that the Chinese economy has gone down during COVID? You don't need to check pollution to deduce that, it's obvious. There was a pandemic going on and very strict lockdown measures, ofc air pollution is going to go down but not only in china, worldwide. And ofc GDP is going to go down with strict lockdowns. The whole world stopped. If you look at the bigger picture, and not just at COVID times, you will see that air pollution and economic growth are actually inverse in china, clearly contradicting your statement: ""We can check **historical air quality** in cities in China, which indicates manufacturing activity"" I wouldn't consider 3 years of pandemic (a complete anomaly btw) to be a ""historical"" time frame. If you used your thesis for a longer period than these 3 years of pandemic, you would be completely wrong Lol.. isn't that the truth.....🤣. They love to blame everything on the Democrats. Can anyone explain why Bubba Clinton (universally hated commie) had a surplus exiting office, then came Bush with a hard 180. Remember all those promises justifying it? Kinda didn’t happen. Of course Trump came along… why are his hands so small? Weird right? Any pointers to look into his strategy? I guess retail sales must be booming? Nothing you just claimed is reflected in economic data. This is reddit were paid ccp and russian trills spread propoganda. That's why my comment was ironic. My point was that America shouldn't get credit for our enemies' self-inflicted wounds. Why don’t you go read that story in the beginning then, the one about the very beginning of the Russian Federation. See who was invading neighboring countries for the last 20ish years to restore a failed union. While you’re at it, go ahead and read up on the May 4th Movement and the communist takeover of China in ‘49. Seems like some people really don’t want to know who stirred shit up Election fraud stuff is primarily being pushed by Americans. Trump being the most immediate example. I’m sure China and Russia have people working to amplify the message but they don’t have a Trump clone talking about how the election was stolen, that’s just trump The people pushing it are irrelevant anyway, whether the conspiracies are coming from Moscow or Atlanta doesn’t really matter as much as the consequences it has on election integrity and the democratic process gerrymandering is absolutely a serious, and old, issue within the US. However, though I would like to see it fixed through things like having independent commissions drawing state lines (like what happens in 14 states). I don't think that the Issue presents such a threat that public policy would be swayed one way or another should it not exist. As it stands now, gerrymandering only affects the national House of Representatives and potentially state legislatures, though the much smaller size of state-legislature districts make gerrymandering more difficult to pull off successfully there. The national senate is immune from gerrymandering as well as the presidency, the state-governorship, and the state-supreme courts. In those races, the officials are elected by popular vote state-wide and so can't be gerrymandered. I looked at every midterm election since 2000, and in every case, the party that won the national popular vote in the house also won control of the house. As in in 2018 the Democrats won the popular vote in the house midterms by 8% and won control of the house. In 2016 the republicans won the popular vote by 3% and won control of the house. In 2014 the republicans won the popular vote by 5% and won control of the house, and so on. Gerrymandering here had negligible effects on the outcome of the election since the people who won the most votes had control of the house. In state legislatures this is even less of a problem. All but 13 states have trifectas as in [The governor, senate, and house](https://ballotpedia.org/State_government_trifectas) belong to the same party. Its hard to argue that the laws passed in these states aren't backed by popular mandate when so many branches of government, having both statewide and district elections, are the same party. Voting laws differ too much state-by-state for me to comment on it since no broad generalization is going to apply. All I can say is that no state is committing significant election tampering. The most common example of state election restrictions that I have been exposed to are the laws requiring voters to show valid ID before voting in several states. Mine doesn't so I can't speak to how discouraging those laws are but I, and everyone I know, has a state issued ID of some form (the one person I know without a drivers license has a passport card). I can say that I live in a swing state with a republican legislature and a democratic governor and I was able to vote mail-in yesterday. It took a 5 minute application and I got my ballot a week later Education of the youth is far too broad of a subject. However, in the internet age, it isn't exactly hard for the youth to be able to research policies and form informed opinions. There are more resources available to this generation than to any previous generation TX is ranked 36th in K-12 education and CA is ranked 37th. We’ll actually get to directly compare the 2 largest economies in the US that have almost exactly equal education standards on how the 2 approaches on abortion effect the states respective economies I saw your list in the above comment > We are entering a recession, on the brink of a potential civil war, have an energy crisis, labor crisis, insanely unequal distribution of wealth, and more discord than I’ve seen my whole life. Recession is something we’ll probably have to deal with but so will everyone else on earth. This will be a global recession and luckily the US has recovered from covid at a far greater pace than other G7 nations https://www.ft.com/__origami/service/image/v2/images/raw/https%3A%2F%2Fd6c748xw2pzm8.cloudfront.net%2Fprod%2Fda99abe0-2b68-11ec-9bed-97b763f1a8e3-standard.png?dpr=1&fit=scale-down&quality=highest&source=next&width=700 2) I’d disagree we’re on the brink of civil war. I don’t think any significant part of American society wants a civil war, much less is advocating for one. We have the usual small percentage that are ready to engage in violence, and they may be more vocal today due to the internet, but this is nothing new in America. 2014 had unrest in Ferguson and the tea party movement. 2000, you had a contentious election decided partly by the Supreme Court. 1995, you had the Oklahoma City bombing where a guy opposed to the federal government blew up a federal building. 1960s you had mass social upheaval, 1920s you had the KKK actively rebelling against the federal government. Today’s nutjobs are able to use the internet to discuss over further distances than ever before but they have always been there. Despite the talk, there hasn’t been one actual case of mass political violence in the US. Certainly nothing like what the UK saw during the troubles or what we saw during the actual civil war. That’s because we still have the democratic avenues to express your opinions in nonviolent ways like protesting, voting, and free speech. The FBI and DHS does a pretty good job at making sure the crazies who want to engage in violence are put in jail where they belong. We also don’t have an energy crisis right now. At least nothing compared to what Europe will be facing. US is currently the worlds largest gas and oil producer and gas/energy prices are pretty low as a result. Energy shortages and high heating costs are literally the number one issue in Europe right now, in contrast, it isn’t even mentioned in America Labor crisis is also something that is being felt everywhere. The great resignation didn’t just hit america and part of the reason everyone’s dealing with such high inflation is because the labor market is so hot. In any case, this issues will be remedied by the upcoming recession we talked about earlier. A recession creates job losses which will return the labor market to normal levels. It’s why the fed has been pushing for a recession with interest rate hikes recently. They WANT the job market to cool down. Unequal distribution of wealth is again something a lot of countries have to deal with. I’m America’s case it’s less that there is a vast majorities of dirt poor people and a handful of rich people, like in most economically unequal country, but instead the US has a lot of people you could consider suburban middle class, then a lot of rich people, and then a lot of really really really rich people. The richest Americans literally have hundreds of billion of dollars. The economic inequality in America exists because the rich people here are insanely rich to the point that even the average American net worth of $748,000 is small to the 121 billion Bezos has. More discord than usual is also probably a consequence of the internet more than anything. People are empowered to speak their mind more than every and more people are doing it now as a result. I don’t think that’s a bad thing, the 1st amendment guarantees the right to speech Yeah but advent of the internet and computers only served to improve America’s economy. All the big internet and computer companies: Microsoft, Apple, Google, Amazon, etc, are all American and add to America’s GDP, tax revenue, and employment opportunities. There’s no reason to think the next innovation won’t follow the same path Energy usage is almost always a good indicator. Oil was a good proxy and still is for the most part. I agree but there will always be a lot of China bulls still pulling weight. ParticilarWar9 is likely correct. If emissions haven’t reached pre-pandemic levels, and China has not transitioned to be more energy efficient, then apparently economic activity is still below pre-pandemic levels. Can you prove or plausibly demonstrate otherwise? collapse of the Soviet Union and Asian market collapse sent absolutely massive amounts of currency reserves to the US in the 90’s. That’s the major reason. Plus slick Willy’s cabinet didn’t really spend too much than bush sr before him. Clinton was based Sorry, can’t hear you over the new TV and surround sound system I bought. Call me when unemployment is almost 10% and rising and foreclosures are way up. They are merely humble bragging about having decent income, don't worry about it You don’t have to go back 20 years to see who stirred shit up in this region. You just have to go back to 2014, see orchestrated the coup, and then go from there. Even recently poroshenko himself said signing treaty back then goal was never to negotiate but buy time to get ready. Well you bought time(8 years) right. In case you are interested in the source for China's oil consumption decrease: https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=54139 … waiting for kooky racist comment. Exactly! I don't think there was a need to be inflammatory/reactionary here. The U.S. economy is in a very weird spot at the moment, and it's a legitimate belief to think we could be in or near a recession (albeit a very odd-looking one, to give you some credit too). You do have to go back 20 years to see a clear and concise pattern, involving multiple targets. Obviously it’s easy to compare two back to back Ukrainian incidents, when in fact this is apart of a larger plan Putin has literally stated since he took leadership. So then why post the BS about the US tricking the Russians into a war if you are so enlightened? Sounds more like you are trying to back peddle… What’s racist about my comment? Because Putin hasn’t said it like that, people love to Misinterpret him. He said and I quote,”Anyone who doesn't regret the passing of the Soviet Union has no heart. Anyone who wants it restored has no brains.” Putin has always been open about: A) desire to reclaim lost Soviet territory B) weakening NATO His actions in the last 20 years support this, but keep on simping for him tho Edit: nvm trying to make sense to you, just looked up your post history. Your an anti-Ukrainian who just moved to the US. No wonder you got that softy for daddy Valdy So again you are just gonna make assumptions based on what he hasn’t said even though his quote has been clear. and overlook the fact that he has crystal clearly pointed out multiple times that NATO IS encroaching their border not other way around. NATO’s action and expansion has been clear since USSR collapse but yea keep on simping for them and blame others Yeah I, like most in the West, don’t take Putin at his word like you sympathizers do. Once again look at the nearly 20 years of actions (ie. Georgian War). It’s the same MO; Russia installs “separatists” then invades to protect them. Another fond approach is to install a puppet regime like in Chechnya and Belarus. NATO is the only countermeasure to Russia in Europe, and will continue to grow as long as Russia attacks its neighbors. Don’t worry though, Russia doesn’t have anymore strength to bully anyone, they won’t even have a chance in winter against the stronger and better equipped Ukrainians. But as I said before, it’s pointless arguing with a Putin boot-licker. But hay, at least the world got to see a superpower lose its military might in the timespan of 8 months 🤣🤣🤣 Ofcourse you won’t take his word even though he has been right about Iraq,Syria and libya. But to war mongers(west) that was their goal(chaos and destruction) in first place lol. Russia and China are counterbalance to US imperialism as we have seen over last 2-3 decades. US policy is either you are with us or against us,no grey line as if they are holy and hold moral high ground lol. Putin was also right about US, they don’t have allies they have vassals, and Ukraine is collateral damage for them. But you keep fooling yourself with how successful US has been with their intervention in Iraq and libya(don’t forget our ambassador was smoked in our embassy), and don’t learn from those lessons US’s so called “rules based world order” = we will destroy you for opposing us and pretend that we are being fair and balanced. I mean you cannot make shit up with US hypocrisy and stupidity, in todays White House press conference they are blaming Iran for not standing by to 2015 nuclear treaty.are you kidding me? Are you referring to the treaty that US pulled out of even though Iran was abiding to it lol. That’s US and NATO’s rule based order. That’s any rules based order. China or Russia would do the same. At least the USA has to pretend to be nice and isn’t flaunting millions in concentration camps as we speak I’m going to fill you in on a little secret; every time an American made weapon destroys a Russian asset that they can’t replace, the world cheers. We haven’t seen a nation’s military might disappear this rapidly since WW2. It’s so embarrassing, Russia’s bestie China won’t even help them. A $50k US Javelin missile, utterly destroys a $5M Tank. Hell, Ukraine has captured so many Russian tanks, it now has more on the battlefield then before the war. Russia can’t even equip its latest “soldiers.” They will have to retreat before winter, or freeze. So later tonight, when you’re reaching around down there thinking about ol’ Daddy Vlady, remember Uncle Sam is unfortunately going to give you a softie Hmmm seems like propaganda than secret lol, but whatever floats your boat. Atleast I am glad you didn’t argue to the facts I threw at you, yet you still come back with thinking you are right lol. I wonder how you feel when $5-10k drones destroy million dollar NATO armaments lol. Just keep the same energy my dude. You definitely fit the category of people who celebrated civil infrastructure(pipeline,crimea bridge) destroyed but yet bitched when flying lawmowers came crashing down lol your comments are hypocrisy shows Us brainwashing at its finest cause you have nothing to lose and everything to gain(military industry complex) and poor people dying in Ukraine. But hold up put a Ukraine flag in your username and they win lol You mean those subpar Iranian kamikaze drones that Russia has to beg Iran for? NATO will gladly give Ukraine the weapon systems it needs to embarrass the Russians. But keep wet dreaming about imaginary NATO vehicles blowing up, so far the Russians are doing that all by themselves. FYI, if Russia went head to head with NATO, it would be nite nite for them real quick, hence why Putin always backs down when shit gets too hot. Remember, you’re going to need to look up Soviet era propaganda to get frisky tonight, cuz ol’ Daddy Valdy is being cucked by the western world Hahah you shared a secret(not really a secret) now let me tell you a real secret. you know why NATO doesn’t wanna go head to head with Russia?, it’s because they don’t want their people to die whereas right now they don’t give a flying F about Ukrainians dying. It’s all good media for them to sell. Everytime a Ukrainian does, media and NATO politicians cheer cause that brings them more negativity to Russia and let’s not forget MORE MONEY IN to NATO countries lol. So get down from your high horse and act like you care about Ukrainians lol You really have to stop watch RTV my friend, NATO is itching to get involved. So much so they are blatantly arming Ukraine, a move Putin claimed would be seen as an act of war. Yet when NATO said fuck off we’re arming them, Putin said ok. I mean, literally the only thing left for NATO to do is actually put boots on the ground/air. Putin threatens to nuke Ukraine if NATO doesn’t stop, NATO responds by threatening to use their own nukes on Russia and Putin says ok no nuking lol. Look, I understand the realization that the Russian red scare was a myth all along has you experiencing erectile dysfunction, but rest assured NATO and America will continue to be rock hard as it pounds Russia back into its new reality of the rusty iron curtain Just read your comments dude. Your immaturity and blatant propaganda is spewing out of your pea sized brain lol. NATO’s only goal is to destroy Russia, as a result Ukraine is collateral damage to them(which I thank you for not refuting), which is all I am saying all along. Like stop with the BS that NATO care about Ukraine, NATO instigated it and as a result situation is where it is. China is the only big party here that is trying to deter situation and telling both parties to come to table but let’s not talk about that cause then how will NATO make money lol. NATO doesn’t even care about it’s own people that’s why plenty of protests about energy crises in Europe and again US MAKES BIG BUCKS SELLING LNG lol. You are a perfect sheep subject, overlooking all these facts and make immature comments but I guess that’s your intellectual level so can’t hate. I just hope you grow(now you can insert more teenage sexual context here) :) My IQ might be as low as Russia’s current active fighting force, but at least I’m smart enough to understand that Ukraine was invaded by Russia, not the other way around. I also understand that Russia is so pressed for soldiers, they’re conscripting old men and dumping them on the front line. So, like the rest of the non-Russian world, I applaud when they lose. And yes, I stand by my assertion that you only get it up the Daddy Vlady. Maybe you use the shirtless pics of him on horseback as material, but hey I’m not here to judge you. But please don’t pay attention to the frequent reports of Russian combat blunders, it’ll only exacerbate the bedroom problems My goal from 1st comment was Ukraine is collateral damage for NATO and the govt heads don’t give a crap and you didn’t refute any of my points, so thank you, your caveman mentality is beaming here lol. Atleast Russia showed some restraint initially when attacking Ukraine but seems like NATO is using civilians as hostages the same thing they were blaming isis off(how tables have turned). The sad thing ordinary civilians are dying in NATO proxy war. And now US is begging Saudi, India, China, Serbia, Hungary and other countries not to buy Russian oil,goods, increase production lol( again these are facts and not your wet dreams) lol. Get more sexual references out and make hyperbole comments cause you can’t seem to get it up with facts ;) Ah yes restraint, bombing civilians as the leave through agreed upon corridors is a great early example of yours. Russia actually out did itself with the raping and murdering of the civilians, they put the old ww2 red army to shame. Let’s not forget forced mass immigration of Ukrainian children to Russia while we’re at it. When the crimean bridge was attacked, the coward Russians attacked a helpless apartment building since they’re too afraid to engage the Ukraine forces. Only someone who sucks off a banana wishing it were ok’ Daddy Vlady himself, would think Russia held back restraint from the innocent civilians. I stand behind all the sexual inadequate jokes about you. Only someone who’s packing a fun-sized snickers would get so a roused by the Russian military. While you praise the actions of a literal terrorist military campaign, I’ll continue to cheer on the Russian meat grinder as Ukraine out performs Russia in every front. Winters coming my friend, Russia will have to come up with some propaganda about the “special military operation” being completed and run back home. If not, the remaining forces freeze or get sick, Ukraine recovers stolen territory and begins counter offenses in Russian territory… It's 'Ukraine' and not 'the Ukraine' Consider supporting anti-war efforts in any possible way: [[Help 2 Ukraine](https://help2ukraine.org)] 💙💛 [[Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Ukraine)] [[BBC Styleguide](https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsstyleguide/u)] ^(Beep boop I’m a bot) Hahahaha you must be smoking really good with the kind of BS you are coming up with. Raping, murdering civilians, forcing people to migrate lol. Omg you take the trophy if morons won one. Even Colin Powell will be rolling his eyes when he reads your comment, he will be like I mean I lied about WMD but dammmm, lol. Ofcourse you ain’t gonna talk about civilians being bombed in eastern ukraine since 2014(which Ukrainian politicians are boasting about now), or bombing nuclear plant lol. Bring facts not fiction. I think Russia army hasn’t fallen that low yet. US/NATO takes title on that shit, google US army saying they would get extra vacation days if they stabbed civilians in Afghanistan, and that’s post 2001, not Stone Age story. Bring another sexual joke my adolescent friend, most of them fly over my head as I haven’t fallen to your level to understand buffoonery like that lol. I’m sure they fly over your head, it’s as small as the little one you’re gripping now. Ah yes “whataboutism” has entered the chat. I’ll indulge for you. Definitely America and NATO has committed their fair share of crimes in the past, but the fact that you think all these clearly obvious incoming reports of Russian crimes (ie mass civilian graves, rape, bombing apartment buildings, kidnapping, etc) are all BS means there’s literally nothing going on upstairs. Russia is losing, bad. They’ve resorted to old-school red army tactics in hopes it would scare the population into surrendering. It’s done the opposite and united the nation (and western world) against them. Russia is in too deep and Putin has never admitted defeat before, so he’s unlikely to now. He has set his nation back militarily and economically for decades. It’s embarrassed itself on the world stage. Keep circle jerking over Daddy Vladys pics tho, one day it might be as meaningful as a living person. You are definitely a product of US war mongering and propaganda. The decades of Bs US politicians used to start war is being shown. No proof to any of your statements. Just words(source trust me bro) and you expect people to believe it. Smells like WMD and other incidents lol I think what you’re smelling, is your sister’s underwear you inbred. I’ve already told you, your feelings of sexual inadequacy is due to the flaccid-inducing performance of the Russian invaders. Why you keep coming back to me to help, I don’t know. Learn to get off on more health topics, maybe exercise, but always remember; after every great military defeat in Russia, there’s a regime change (ie bolshevik revolution after the Tzar’s failed war with Japan/ww1, Fall of Soviet Union after defeat in Afghanistan, and soon to be fall of Putin’s empire after the dust settles in Ukraine) so get all that Daddy Vlady love in while you still can!! Hahaha I think with all the facts I shared your brain has finally malfunctioned and triggered you. Come back with more sexual innuendo. Initially you sounded like a democrat I mean you still do but with all the cucks and I inbred statements I can’t make if you are republicans or just played with by uncle in childhood. I just hope you get better and cope with facts. Mwah facts will prevail and WMD’s will fail like medium rare ambassadors Look stop stalling with me, and go face your fears in the bedroom. Blockout all the bad Russian news since Feb 2022 and bust out that old Soviet Russian propaganda. I’m sure with enough mention of gulags and forced labor, you’ll be able to experience relief. But dear god, I can not help since I only get off on the failures of Putin’s Russia. And let me tell you I have enough material to get me through winter… I see your issue. Your blood circulation is flowing to your vagina or penis whatever you may have and that’s fogging your thinking. Seems like you are a dem cause you replied really quick triggering your feeling. The irony that republicans were war mongers and now y’all have become one lol. Now go cry about another propaganda #aleppoonfire lol oh man. You are so gullible. Incoming adolescent sexual comment from them/he/she. Your world revolves around getting off like I mentioned before(pea brain) that’s why don’t give your neurons tough time thinking. Just go with whatever news media tells you and keep on whacking off like a good sheep lol" "Jeff Bezos to Step Down as Amazon CEO, Become Executive Chair",1687,https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-02/jeff-bezos-to-step-down-as-amazon-ceo-become-executive-chair?sref=4FzXPuLD,"[deleted] Here’s the “article” in its entirety: > Amazon.com Inc. Chief Executive Officer Jeff Bezos will step down from his post in the third quarter of 2021 and be replaced by Andy Jassy, the head of the company’s cloud computing unit. >Bezos, the company’s driving force since its founding, will become executive chairman, Amazon said Tuesday in a statement. Wow. What an interesting and unexpected announcement. With their various business lines it’s not an easy company to manage. Those are big shoes to fill. Gives him the opportunity to do like Gates and have a life outside of his empire. Hope he’s able to do some good. Quitting his job in this economy? I hope he put a few shekels away for a rainy day. He is going balls deep in blue origin. This is his passion project. [removed] How does this affect his control of Amazon? What? Who’d want to sit on him? Guarantee my couch is comfier than an executive chair like that. Mr Bezos is aging at double rate, this is a effort to stem the slide. Clearly the plan is still be be actively overseeing though. Handing off to the person in charge of one of the biggest divisions seems like a good/safe choice that shouldn't scare shareholders too. Quick question please, how does an executive chair differ from a CEO? You can buy a decent Executive Chair on Amazon for around $300, why does he even want to become a chair now? For someone that barely makes $40k a year, can you guys explain to me what the difference between CEO, Executive Chairman, President, Owner, Boss, and Lord God Beef Supreme? He will now be able to focus more time and energy on developing Kryptonite Lasers, and finally kill Superman! Such an American success story. Guy was at Princeton realized he was no Ed Witten and re-invented himself as a quant, then he did the most un-quant like move to give up a secured net worth of 30mm by now to go and create a Startup in a garage. Well now he's worth 180B, still underperformed on a risk adj. basis but who cares... **If Amazon records 2 more blowout quarters before he steps down , it might gain the AAA rating. Think about it, from a garage to being at the helm of an organization which is as creditworthy as the US Government which has *checks notes* 5400 nukes, the first navy in the world by a wide margin as well as the first, the second and the third airforce** That’ll do pig, that’ll do Let the spending begin. The thing I’m wondering is, well, why? He’s really the only one fit for the job as the CEO of Amazon. Interested to hear your guy’s opinion on this, is this bullish or bearish for $AMZN? Musk really broke him, huh? Took his title away and there's no rematch? Pro Tip: Always have your next job lined up before quitting the current one. Exec chair is more powerful than CEO. I don’t believe board positions are paid but they direct the ship and he doesn’t need money anymore What is the roll of an executive chairman? Thanks And thus the dragon shall slumber upon his hoarded treasure This is like when Putin steps down temporarily so his buddy can pretend to run the place for a while. Why not? It's already a dumping ground for chinese counterfeit items and the company's vans are the biggest road nuisance in modern times. Job well done, rest earned, right? What does this mean for Amazon stonks? Now he wants to own space. He wants to fire just like me! I am ready for my birthright master. Peace out big guy Does this mean he will focus on philanthropism now? ^/s First Amazon employee to get a break He has done a great service to humanity. The internet is better off because of him. Just when he could step up and reset how the world does business...he steps down. 😟 ? We got Papa Elon on our side anyway. After they shut down Parler without any reason, they need new leadership. He steal from his employees!!! Google the $61.7million dollar lawsuit. He steal from his employees!!! Google the $61.7million dollar lawsuit. [deleted] honestly, it was time. biggest decision to prevent big embarrassment to himself and the company that would make Amazon demand low and investors to pull back becomes supreme overlord of earth. *puts on space hat Legend 🙌🏻 AWS is the backbone of many other companies also. It's not an exaggeration that AWS is it's own company. What is AWS? 2 sentences behind a fucking paywall lmfao The link was just a stem and the article has been expanded: *Amazon.com Inc. Chief Executive Officer Jeff Bezos will step down from his post in the third quarter of 2021 and be replaced by Andy Jassy, the head of the company’s cloud computing unit. Key Speakers At The 2019 CERAWeek Conference Andrew JassyPhotographer: F. Carter Smith/Bloomberg Jassy for years has been seen as a potential successor to Bezos, who founded the company as an online bookstore from his Seattle garage more than 25 years ago and became one of the world’s wealthiest men. Jassy’s likelihood as successor seemed inevitable last year when Jeff Wilke, who was the company’s consumer business chief and was also seen as a potential successor, announced he’d be leaving the company this year. Bezos, the company’s driving force since its founding, will become executive chairman, Amazon said Tuesday in a statement. The transition arrives at time when Amazon seems unstoppable, fueled by record sales amid the pandemic and generating massive cash and profits from the cloud services business Jassy helped create and manage. Bezos isn’t going far, much the way Bill Gates remained chairman of Microsoft Corp. after ceding the CEO role. “When you look at our financial results, what you’re actually seeing are the long-run cumulative results of invention,” Bezos said in a statement. “Right now I see Amazon at its most inventive ever, making it an optimal time for this transition.”assy The reaction on Wall Street was mostly positive, even as Amazon turned in another blockbuster quarter and solid guidance. The online retailer reported fourth-quarter sales jumped 44% to $125.6 billion, beating analysts’ average estimate of $119.7 billion. Earnings were $14.09 per share, compared with analyst projections of $7.34.* This is why I come to the comments first Is Jassy like a knock off version of Jessie? Prolly got him off of amazon... Massive. It's incredibly hard to even imagine what the day-to-day of that job would entail. Can you imagine the feeling of getting the job and fucking it up when a $1.7T startup is on the line. I wish I'll get to FIRE but man would I have no interest in such a high stress position, especially as a non-founder who's gotta protect OPM. Edit: I guess y'all aren't much into inaccurate word usage. Indeed, Amazon is not a startup with TTM $320B in revenue and $50B in FCF, didn't mean to vex Jeff. It will be interesting to see if Bezos can rehab his reputation like Gates did. Exactly. With that much money, he just wants to chill. Yeah that's seems to be exactly what's happening. He's basically semi-retiring. Everyone sucking this guy off in here is a clown... but you all know that about yourselves anyway Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha do good? Hahahahahahahahahahaha This is the best comment I’ve seen on the topic. I hope he has saved enough for his retirement. I am genuinely excited that this might be the case. The people excited in space are really disappointed that we haven't seen anything real from Blue Origin, all the while he has engaged in at least 2 really petty legal fights with SpaceX, who is showing gangbusters progress. Those 2 are the KSC Launch Complex 39, and the more recent Starlink spectrum debacle. On top of that, Blue Origin entered partnerships with the old hands of the space contractors. So that's the backdrop. I speak for a lot of people when I say that I'd love to see more hardware in flight. [deleted] Fuck you with your ninja edit spamming that garbage all over reddit. Mods. Check his post history. He needs to be banned sitewide. Probably not much at first, but this starts preparing the company and markets for his departure. Not much unless he sells off. Not much, he retains a lot of power as exec chairman. I'll skip the standard All Caps response. Bezos just turned 57, so guessing he is starting his succession planning. If things go well, I could see him being out of daily operations by 60. Also probably wouldn't hurt to have a less public face leading the company. I mean, If his ex wife sat on him and walked out with billions, I would too. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2000/01/what-s-the-difference-between-ceos-and-chairmen.html Wondering the same thing lmao You may find the article below helpful. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2000/01/what-s-the-difference-between-ceos-and-chairmen.html He’s not. The CEO of AWS (the profitable side of Amazon) is taking over. I’m sure he’s qualified. AWS is the backbone of Amazon and Jassy is responsible for that. It’s a great move that leaves me excited to be invested in the company. [deleted] You’re definitely in the wrong subreddit. Take your wining elsewhere They might be looking to the future idk About half of them I wouldn’t be surprised if shareholders want them to split it off. >AWS AWS means Amazon Web Services and it's a cloud-computing provider. Netflix and Reddit use AWS for example. So weird. I searched all over for a “click to read more” link or something, but it wasn’t there. Now it fully loads without a clicky option. *shrug* [deleted] I’d imagine it’s a never ending assault of fires to put out and ideas and concepts to vette [deleted] That and the threat of additional regulations and calls to break up the company. There are a ton of moving parts and this person has to be the face of all of it. All while driving new products and businesses and keeping their current products running. Unionizing, workers rights and other hot topics for Amazon are not easy to navigate too. Lots of bad or controversial items on the list. The stress would be insane. One wrong word can have billions of dollars of impact. ""Why do CEOs make so much money!?!?!?"" This is fucking why. Even a company that's a fraction the size of Amazon is a goddamn bear to run. At least it's only a startup He’s donated $2 billion to fight homelessness and education deficits in the US, and pledged another $10 billion to addressing climate change. I’m surprised how little people know about this. No more pies to the face for ol Billy I'm sure he will if that is what he wants to do, having $100B means you can pretty much do whatever you want. [deleted] I don’t think these people chill like you and me. Their minds don’t work like that. I imagine he’ll have a side project, possibly devote more time to Blue Origin and truest build that out. He is Weyland from Aliens. AmazonBasics Elon. you mean musk is dollar store Jeff Bezos? we all need someone to push under the bus I had no idea he was 57, he looks 10 years younger thanks! I'm thinking about the likelihood of a Howard Shultz scenario. Soo an executive chair is more actively involved than a normal chairman? You may find the article below helpful. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2000/01/what-s-the-difference-between-ceos-and-chairmen.html So is it a good idea to take out a position in AMZN now or is it too late at this point? Considering that they kicked Parler off their servers for literally no reason, Parler’s company did in fact “shut down” without Amazon’s servers. I’m not arguing whether they had the legal right to do it or not. Please address the original statement and not try and take people down a rabbit hole to deflect. 😉 Fuck off!!! He is a criminal. He steals from his employees. They're stupid if they do that, but I could see an anti trust doing that Gotcha thanks for the explanation Hey /u/GenderNeutralBot I want to let you know that you are being very obnoxious and everyone is annoyed by your presence. ^(I am a bot. Downvotes won't remove this comment. If you want more information on gender-neutral language, just know that nobody associates the ""corrected"" language with sexism.) _^(People who get offended by the pettiest things will only alienate themselves.)_ The pressure bro... Just a scrappy start up with a valuation that puts them in the top 15 for GDP measured by country. It was tongue in cheek, it's obviously not a startup but they have Megacorp ambitions, I see a lot of their offshoots as AWS-subsidized internal startups. Amazon is so into their Day One ideology that they've become a startup, mentally Bootstraps Founded after I was born To me Amazon is far and beyond the first business that should be investigated for anti-competitiveness/anti-trust amongst FAAAM. Granted IANAL and I'm not even sure it is an illegal practice, but having a cash cow like AWS allowing you to run 500 other businesses at a loss to gain the market shares is a problem. I don't know that it is illegal, I don't think it is, but I find it the most morally ambiguous (when properly speaking of fair markets and competitiveness regs, there are tougher monopolies out there) I think a lot of people see his massive wealth, and just assume he is a villain not realizing his fortune is largely illiquid and locked in his Amazon shares. Based on what I've read about Bezos over the years, I would not be surprised to see the rest of his life shift to philanthropy, similar to Gates. bruh you're on Reddit where if the reality doesn't fit Reddit's narrative....Reddit still keeps on pushing their BS narrative. Bezos is a leech. He uses predatory practices to squeeze and destroy competition and when they are at low point he acquires them for a much lower price. Also using his data and evaluates which products and sectors are doing especially well. He is not a philanthropist and he is not a good guy trying to help good cause. Just because he said he will donate some spare change to homelessness doesn’t make him a passionate human being. He is the reason why street retail and much of middle class is diminishing. Fuck him And he got that money by depriving his warehouse workers of bathroom breaks with jobs that pay a pittance. [deleted] Plus he donates quite a bit to space research through Blue Origin. Or you could just be talking completely out of your ass. If you want to judge him for the things he has done then fine. But making up reasons to hate someone even further just seems...like a weird way to spend your time. Only time will tell what he decides to do with his time and money. wouldn't it be hilarious if he just sat around in his underwear watching tv and smoking weed for like 40 years though? https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/02/jeff-bezos-to-step-down-as-amazon-ceo-andy-jassy-to-take-over-in-q3.html ""Bezos said he will stay engaged in important Amazon projects but will also have more time to focus on the Bezos Earth Fund, his Blue Origin spaceship company, The Washington Post and the Amazon Day 1 Fund."" Lol yeah, if he wanted to really chill I'm sure he would've years ago correct. I have had the privilege of personally knowing a few executives in large companies. its always looking at the next thing. They give themselves an hour, maybe 2 on weekends, to watch TV or browse the internet. Other than that; its always work or side projects. Its actually interesting how similar it is to how the future looks if one reads into the lore. Apparently, Weyland ends up becoming a global dominating corporation and is so massive it basically tells what the US government does. Amazon and Blue origin remind me a lot of that. If you watch the original Aliens to they mention how the ""company"" is screwing them over.. Maybe science fiction will be science fact someday If I had more money than god, I would never look like I’m more than 30 years old Broadly I think that is a fair assumption, but the actual roles will likely be unique to the company and people involved. Thanks People called the stock bloated at $150. Long term Amazon seems like a great bet, but do your own research. [deleted] Oh, it was refused service because of its content. Kind of like if a group showed up at your restaurant every day to plan violence and sedition, you could say, “You all are not allowed in here anymore. Go plan that shit somewhere else, you pack of Benedict Arnold cucks.” My condolences. It must be tough. Honestly Anti-Trust probably shouldn't force them to separate, as it wouldn't have any meaningful impact on either as monopolies. 1. You can't force a proper split, as the retail side could not easily transition away from the AWS systems they built. They would just have to become a client of AWS and shovel $$$ over at market prices to keep the lights on. 2. The end impact of that is only to make AWS stronger as it would have a massive company locked in as a long term client. 3. It might weaken Amazon somewhat as a retailer, as they might be slightly less price competitive... but their price competition comes more from the logistics side than a benefit from the AWS side. ---------- I think if you broke them up it wouldn't be AWS vs Retail, but maybe AWS+Retail vs Logistics? Force the company to spin out operation of its distribution hubs and warehouses... but even that doesn't make a lot of sense. ---------- Either way a split isn't likely to occur so long as the Bork understanding of Anti-Trust law dominates. It just isn't at all clear that consumers are being harmed. Why would it be stupid? What synergies does AWS have with the rest of Amazon? I'm not so sure about that. A lot of analysts say investors should welcome an antitrust split because the companies are likely more valuable apart from one another. There is a strong argument that when the big antitrust suit comes, amazon will bargain splitting off AWS so the entire case is dropped. And the fourth largest company in the world by market cap not too far behind Apple and Microsoft. That doesn’t come close to making it a start up Same story with facebook and google with ad revenue. Agreed. IMO, the reason nothing’s been done is because Pubs hate antitrust actions while Dems quietly are enjoying his campaign contributions. Only prog Dems like Bernie & AOC seem to give a shit. It’s a careful line to walk and there’s a lot of strategy and planning they have to do when working in spaces that the laws are still catching up to. They are well positioned now and not doing anything that has irked lawmakers too much, but with the wrong person at the helm that could easily change. Facebook, Apple, Amazon, Alphabet, Microsoft. Typically it's FAANG (Facebook, Apple, Amazon, Netflix, Google) Most people vilify him because of the supposed difficult working conditions in Amazon’s shipment centers. I’m not trying to comment on my opinions on this because I do not know a lot about the situation. That’s just what I’ve seen on why people dislike him so much. Ya the guy who works his employees to the bone and won't let them take bathroom breaks is really a star philanthropist with a heart of gold. good guy bezos /s He recently bought a house in LA worth 160M. I'm really worried he wont be able to afford his mortgage and with taxes these days?!!? He'll be another welfare guy. [deleted] It's not like Bezoz's wealth is tied up in some PE project, or he is the debt lender for some major construction project or retirement fund. Bezoz could take $50 MILLION out a day, for about 12.5 Billion a year without impacting the stock price at all. 50 million on a 1.7 trillion market cap would move the $3,380.00 stock price to $3,379.90 for a total of 9.94 CENTS. The volume today was 17,730 million, so his 50 million will not be relevant at all. I think he could do 5-10 times this pace without any issue at all. We aren't talking about the 50% owner of a thinly traded $5B company, this is one of the largest companies in the world! Edit: I have come back to this post with downvotes, so I found some data showing Bezos did exactly this: [https://www.bizjournals.com/washington/news/2020/02/11/jeff-bezos-has-sold-18-5-million-shares-of-amazon.html](https://www.bizjournals.com/washington/news/2020/02/11/jeff-bezos-has-sold-18-5-million-shares-of-amazon.html) Where they sit on a throne and wave a magic wand at whoever begs correctly? Look at how good I was at capitalism. Come, take my money and wash away my sins. Reddit sucks in so many ways. Yet, here we are :( Yes, $2 billion is “spare change” for the homeless. And what the fuck do you do with your life to help others? And “predatory business tactics”? Can you elaborate on this and give an example or something? They might clear out some ma-and-pa stores and proceed to offer a cheaper and quicker service for retail goods than anyone else in a city, yes. Vast majority of people benefit from that. Amazon and it’s subsidiaries generally pay better than the vast majority of other companies in the industry. While it’s easy to recognize they pay well for the software and executive business side, their companies are probably better places to work for the retail and warehouse industries. For example, Whole Foods; the only company I can think of that matches their pay and benefits is Costco. There really aren’t many retail companies that provide unskilled/uneducated workers with a decent living after years of being at the company. The warehouses? I’ve heard mixed things. As far as labour law (and basic human rights) violations go, I’ve got a hard time believing one of the biggest companies in the world is excessively breaking standards in every warehouse across the country. The work culture weeds people out who aren’t conscientious workers. Anecdotally speaking; the people I’ve spoken to who hate working there are the same ones who would sit in the shop talking with coworkers for 2 hours if managers didn’t prod them. The people who stay working at Amazon are people who don’t like being lazy. You’re free to have your opinion on how much of a fit that is for your personal working style, but I don’t think such setups are as inhumane as some people like to suggest. Really, I’ve seen headlines of people saying “X thing happened at this warehouse”. I haven’t seen many lawsuits or formal investigations that didn’t lead to managers being reprimanded for shitty behaviour. tl;dr - Not saying it’s an easy place to work at or bad things don’t happen; but again, I don’t think it’s as bad as news outlets like to portray it as. Amazon’s subsidiaries are still better places to work at relative to the industry in a lot of scenarios. If it gets the problem solved more effectively and with far more financial efficiency than government (because, you know, they’re business men spending their own money) then I’m fine with them making a profit. Probably a far less burden to tax payers when the money comes out of their own pocket. By the way, can you explain to me how setting up working plumbing systems for developing communities in Africa is a “business venture” for Gates? Thank you kind stranger Thank you kind stranger Thank you kind stranger So basically, you don’t know I’ve been watching tutorials and videos on how to screen for undervalued stocks recently. Im 15 right now so its not like the capital I have to work with is anything crazy. Mostly looking at SeekingAlpha and OpenInsider. Amazon, Google, and Apple coordinated an attack to remove Parler from the internet world within a few days. That doesn’t fall into the lines of “refusing service to a customer.” That’s in the lines of “we don’t want competition so you’re out.” That is exactly what the FTC was made to look for, and that’s exactly why the FTC is suing a company like Facebook for monopoly. I’m pretty sure someone posting their opinion online isn’t equivalent to “plan violence and sedition...”😂 >Honestly Anti-Trust probably shouldn't force them to separate, as it wouldn't have any meaningful impact on either as monopolies. Anti-trust isn't anti-monopoly. INTC ran a near monopoly (95-97% of market share) on server and consumer chips for nearly 10 years and never once came up in FTC conversation. Anti-trust and the entire concept of reviews under HSR isn't ""we automatically kill a monopoly"". A monopoly is only taken action against if you can show they're using their monopolistic state for anti-competitive practices. Given Google and MSFT are both serious competitors in the cloud space you can't even start the conversation of AWS being a monopoly. AWS only has a 48% market share in the public cloud services market. People in here are talking about monopolies without knowing a damn thing about them. AWS literally is the tech that powers Amazon. If they completely split, Amazon will have a hard transition period because they now have to play AWS millions just to keep Amazon up and running. Typically, but you understood what I've meant and FAAAM being a much more accurate company basket to represent the main mega tech stocks is a hill I will die on. Netflix has no business there and Microsoft is inexplicably missing. They do not belong in the top 5, they don't by market cap and they make a laughable (by comparison, it's still a big business) $30ish B in *revenue*, I mean ffs MSFT has $50B of FCF. MSFT has also a much deeper reach into our lives than NFLX does, akin to the other 4. Another Gates analogy. He was known as ruthless and cutthroat before he left MSFT. There are a lot of stories on this. But also - Working in warehouses is hard work. Any warehouse. Amazon just has the most warehouses and the most employees and is therefore guaranteed to have the most complaints - does not make them a villian. People dislike him because they mostly parrot what they hear from media and elon musk. What they should be focusing on is apple's modern day slavery in China and more. Pretty certain that ""won't let them take bathroom breaks"" isn't true. Maybe don't base your opinions on hyperbole? From his perspective his wealth is largely illiquid. I have no idea why people are downvoting this comment, because you are absolutely correct. One of the top 10 traded stocks in the world by market cap, and we are acting like someone can't take out 50 million daily for the next year (250 days) for about 12.5 Billion! This would not affect the share price at all and there's no way he intends to donate at this rate anyways. This price impact would be less than a dollar on a $3,000 stock! You don't believe Bezos selling off a substantial portion of his stock would not have an impact on the share price? His stake is functionally illiquid until he determines he no longer desires control over the company. at least you are on r/finance [deleted] You’re wrong though. Are you aware of what Alphabet is? What do you mean by “the tech that powers Amazon”? Just noting the initialism you're using as it doesn't really align with the typical. [deleted] [deleted] Agreed that the volume of shares wouldn't impact the price. But once it hit the news that Bezos was selling off that much stock, others would do the same. Pretty much every founder of every large company is selling some portion of their stake on a regular basis. No founder wants to have 20B net worth, and 500k outside of their main venture. If Bezos actually wanted to make a change, yes he could take out 10B in the course of a month with a good reason why and no would care after next earnings. Even easier would be to gift the Amazon shares with a rule to sell over multiple years. There are hundreds of ways to donate large shares of money, but people aren't interested in hearing how they can donate. He cashes out 1-4 billion every year. You must be a bezos apologist No, you could look at each situation carefully though. It's a lot better in determining if the private sector or public sector is better equipped to handle the problem. You'd be a dimwit to collectively think one is better than another in every situation. >By the way, can you explain to me how setting up working plumbing systems for developing communities in Africa is a “business venture” for Gates? How can I be wrong tho when you believe that everyone’s feelings/opinions are unique and relative to their truth? Maybe I don’t believe I’m wrong. Who are you to say that I’m wrong? Isn’t that intolerant? But the tech AWS is basically the system a lot of companies run on. AWS is basically how they run Amazon and just allowed others to benefit from what they built for a price. Sorry if I came off rude I didn't realize you were just expanding on the underlying companies, I've been using FAAAM for a while and assumed it wasn't unheard of. For my defense, in Québec our widely used ""FAANG"" is ""GAFAM"". I can guarantee you that someone urinating in a bottle would not be part of their standard work environment. It's an outlier, if true. The story was also entirely uncorroborated. Also comparing someone working at a retailer like Costco to working in a warehouse is apples vs oranges. I’ve worked in warehouses like Amazon before. Walmart and Publix to be exact. These people are paid based on their speed and you’re constantly timed, the faster you are the more you make. It’s a rough environment when everyone is on go go go. I would assume these people pissing in bottles did so to not slow down their time. Your time does stop when asking to go to the bathroom but you still lose some time and when going multiple times it adds up. It’s like that everywhere so these people are the wild outliers. No, he can’t. His share liquidation is typically done ahead of time since he is an insider and selling that many shares would have significant negative impact on share value. He could do a lot of things if he wanted to, but that doesn't make them good decisions. I'd venture that the control Bezos gets from his large stake in Amazon is much more valuable to him than the money he could get from selling his stock. Part of Amazon's value and Bezos wealth is the result of his control over the company and market confidence in his proven managerial ability. If Bezos sold 10% of his total shares over the span of a month, people would lose their shit and the stock price would take a hit, significantly reducing the value of the rest of his shares. Meaning whatever amount of paper money he's worth is far from the amount of cash he has access to. The definition of illiquidity. This isn't to say he's cash poor by any stretch, just that his accessible cash is low relative to his total paper value. Hence illiquid. Wrong. Guy, I know what AWS is. AWS is a web hosting platform. Amazons retail side could just as easily be run on Microsoft’s Azure platform. Explain how AWS is “basically how they run Amazon”? GAFAM sounds really hilarious comparatively [deleted] Moving infrastructure from cloud provider to cloud provider is non trivial. Amazon retail is built on AWS. Edit: I dont think you truly understand the scale of AWS, its not just a web hosting platform. It's infrastructure as a service. SaaS companies and divisions like heroku build their platform on AWS. >AWS is a web hosting platform Yes. In 2006. AWS (or, what eventually evolved into AWS) was initiated as an internal platform to streamline development of Amazon's tech infrastructure and ecommerce offerings. It was only after a few years of being developed and used internally by Amazon, did they consider that other companies might be interested and willing to pay for the service. Similar services are now offered by other companies, but converting Amazon over to another service would likely be a costly endeavor with questionable benefit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Amazon_Web_Services To be fair it flows much easier in French than ""FAANG"" ever could (and vice-versa), actually ""FAANG"" would be phonetically ambiguous I can think of 3 ways people may say it, and I'm not sure which would be ""accurate"". You make a good point, and it's my fault for leaving out the time component of liquidity. Liquidity is how much cash you have fast access to. Gates was in a similarly illiquid position, which is precisely why he got his money out over years, rather than months. No one's arguing Bezos isn't fucking loaded. Just that the amount of cash he could have in hand by tomorrow or next month is a fraction of his paper value. Again, at his level of wealth, this is probably a meaningless distinction - other than a ransom, why would you really need $100B of AZMN converted to cash tomorrow?" Yellen says U.S. aims to move ahead with global minimum corporate tax,1688,https://www.reuters.com/business/yellen-says-us-aims-move-ahead-with-global-minimum-corporate-tax-despite-setback-2022-07-16/,"Her and what Congress? And leave giant loopholes so they can get around it… As we get older as a Country, its painfully obvious everything in DC is broke, inept and corrupt and led by clowns Amazing how economists suddenly forget economics when they get political appointments God she is so dumb…. A VAT is an awful idea. The greed of the government will ensure you are getting a VAT while keeping the current income tax system. You will only end up driving prices higher. The dirty little secret is that corporations don’t pay tax. Corporations collect taxes on behalf of the government. I would support a national sales tax as a way to collect income if, and only if, they revoked the current tax regime. She said the United States had a strong incentive to move forward because as other countries enacted the tax agreement, they would be taxing the foreign profits of U.S. companies, while the United States would be leaving ""that tax revenue on the table rather than capturing it ourselves."" Things like this are going to make corporations abandon the left and go back to supporting right wing groups. Good. Lots of weirdos making up stuff in this comment section with no basis in reality. I’d rather companies retain their earnings rather than give it to the government to waste it on stupid shit like predator drones When they control the flow of money, they control your life. Alternate trade will soon step up as the dark currency. I am waiting to hear from Janet Yellen, who is a much better federal reserve chair than treasury secretary in my opinion, make a justification for the global 15% tax that makes sense for her home country, America. I am not happy with her insisting it become a reality without understanding why it is so darn important. This is stupid. Let countries choose their own tax rates. We need less taxes and less regulations. Yellen was wrong about inflation and should be fired. Yes everyone knows that more tax will lower prices./s And another step toward OWO. Not oral without. I mean One World Order. Yellen is a fucking retarded tool. This is not good for the US at all and is just a way to try and screw businesses over. Democrats need to stand in front of trains and spare the rest from having to live in society with their stupidity. To put it simply: this is dumb Imagine I’d the National Association of Realtors announced they were pursuing a minimum commission requirement. Nobody could sell for a lower commission. Who would that benefit? The consumer or the realtor? Here comes the great consolidation after small business is stomped out. Why don't we have a global tax on oil despots? Or dictators? Or politicians? Actually we do not need government. We should completely abolish this Benidorm bastards. The thin end of the One World Government you will own nothing and eat zee bugz. Und be huppy. …but they’re not though. Republicans have been against it from the start, and democrats new tax plan would make us unable to agree to the deal. It doesn’t matter what people say, it matters what they actually try to do Probably for the best though, I think the deal is a horrible idea Corporations just raise prices to pay for taxes so cheer all you want you will still be the one that pays We’re going to have more red states and conservative politicians over the next 10 years because of stuff like this. Stupid Yellen is estimated to be worth $20M in 2021. This comes from big money controlling the government for control and profit. This is exactly why so many assets are controlled by so few. About goddam time Is anyone afraid that all the big corporations will just privatize as partnerships and raise money a different way? The US federal government has no power without the US corporations. America is built on corporations, no surprise the gov is trying to make life easier for the corp. She looks cool. “No capes!” Manchin and the rest of the GOP are just amazingly terrible people. We need a VAT TAX. FLAT TAX FOR EVERYONE or FOH except for this applying to areas like the city of london who have their own exemptions Makes no sense; even if every nation in the world completely and unequivocally agreed upon an international corporate tax with no legal loopholes, any nation could apply tax credits and such to make the effective tax rate zero. I bet. Then they can go and use that money to do things like build roads next to land they own. Or they will use it to enrich their friends more. Very little if it will go to the places it should suck as social programs to support those who need it. From what little I know on this subject, the United States may break even on this proposition. We will lose major amounts of tax of our many foreign companies that we are currently taxing and will gain back some of the tax of the foreign companies that sell work here. But barely, breakeven… WTF Great. Add people as well. Everyone should pay taxes, even if a nominal amount. This was a plank in my presidential bid platform, but nobody supported those monies being applied to water, food, housing and healthcare. Stupid idea. Welcome to the one world order. This woman soon be tranquilized. If they do business in the US, they have to pay. Global minimum corporate tax means? Is USA gonna force other country's to have a minimum tax rate as well? Finally, or until then loopholes are fully exhausted. Also I can hear corporations yelling “this will stunt our million-dollar-profit company’s growth!” And I see politicians using that as justification to reject the tax. sayin US is instituting a global tax is. laughable. as they don't have the level of influence to institute global protocols. imagine being so American u think US policy makers can make real global decisions lol Good luck when you don’t even have Dems on board How do you enforce that? Your just going to tell the Cayman Islands what to do? Good luck Jesus! Is this dumb lady trying to force recession? They raise taxes on companies it will raise prices even higher then they are going now, who can pay for it! And how do we expect the companies to keep hiring people? Does she know what inflation is? Or is she just another geriatric who needs to be put in a home? 30% or more please. Make them pay the military budget since it is primarily for them and their lust for all things capitalism. Came to say this. Congress reading this like: “She doesn’t even go here!” It’ll be like the League of Nations where the US sort of sets everything up on a global scale and then Congress votes not to join the global program we spearheaded All of them I guess doesnt matter, misleading title, the us cant enact global proticols or stipulations because. duh, the US isnt the whole earth xD last i checks thats what global meant xD national maybe but. not global. Yeah we could instead sanction companies that don't pay it. If we were serious and all. Yep, all bullshit measures intended to keep moderates happy. Yelen is a joke though. Hyped up and turns out she's just a corporate slackey just like the rest of them. how else would she keep getting speaking fees? I think you mean freedom lassos I think there’s just so much more exposure now days compared to the past. It’s more than likely always been this way. Never the less, extremely frustrating and disappointing. They knew it from day 1, that's why they created the constitution to try and greatly limit the power in Washington DC. It's definitely not *uniformly* corrupt. Fostering a sense of despair in the electorate is the best weapon the corrupt have in fighting efforts to reform. There have been numerous waves of reform in our history from both of the major parties and involving both inexperienced politicians and involving incumbents. However the last significant wave of reform minded voter sentiment was completely hijacked by lobbyists, and turned into the tea party anti-establishment movement which installed officials more corrupt than their predecessors with corruption superpower of being able to claim that their norm-breaking was a virtue. It is becoming very clear that DC is a fucking circus. Need to clean the sheet, get new blood in. And by new blood, not AOC ""throw a third of GDP at dumbshit green energy crap"", not QAnon/""get rid of the fed reserve"", like find some fucking normal people ffs. The latest RvW means the Supreme Court is now corruptible, hurray. And our central bank can't tell its own head from its own ass. And seriously, why is Ted Cruz still around? Fucking clowns, all of them I think it kinda always has been, more or less. Perils of democracy, but idk how you get a government that will defend individual liberties without being elected by the individuals. Always has been. I’m starting to feel like I should be in the club instead of trying to change it These are glorified politicians masquerading as economists. A national sales tax impacts poor people more than rich people. The progressive income tax we have now is better it just needs a higher cap and to redefine what is and isn't income so rich people can't just take loans against their assets and avoid paying tax forever. The ""libertarians spout half assed psuedo-economics"" subs are over there Not sure I follow… this isn’t a VAT tax. Corporations do not support political ideologies, only their corporate interests. It might appear that a corporation supports the left, but only if ""the left"" is buying more of their products. I like the thought though. It becomes increasingly clear that Yellen doesn’t understand the deal at all. Not only does the US already have a minimum tax on global income, but this new deal likely loses us tax revenue, not gains it They will support whoever allows them to keep not paying their bills [deleted] Clearly, appeasing corporations is our top priority. Not curbing inflation or helping people. Why do you think it’s good that we move forward with the deal? Predator drones are cool af tho They did choose.... the US isn't enforcing this internationally, they reached a deal with other countries..... Dumbest take on this sub, congratulations toddler. Then we should stop defending the tax dodgers. Not only her. How about the Fed? the sole job of a Fed is inflation and they missed it terribly. Not sure if they understood it but made a wrong statements (its transitory) just for public consumption or if they didn't understand it, which is worse. Politicians getting it wrong is understandable. Man, his sub realy is just ""right wingers pretend to know about economics and make up nonsense to attack people with"" [deleted] I’m hoping this is sarcasm. I only say that because there are folks on this sub who would legitimately argue that point of view. Unironically it can. Especially during times of steep inflation. So, explain your position on Yellen Uh....... do you think small businesses are paying large sums in corporate tax? It has always bugged me how the right always tries to say that taxes kill small business when they don't really have that much of an effect. Especially compared to how corporations can bully and buyout supply chain to their competitors basically unchecked because republicans have gutted consumer protections. Or stupid comments? That will bring in a lot of revenue What kind of weird political Facebook memes have you been looking at? This is not and has never been true. In fact, one of the most reliable ways to curb inflation is taxing the wealthy. Why? Doubt it, investors need a way to exit and have limited liability We should all just have a tiny portion of our paycheck automatically go directly to Fortune 500 corporations so they don’t have a temper tantrum and collapse the global economy. We’ll call it when the Stockholm Syndrome fee. The US already has a global minimum tax America became a corporatocracy in the 1960s when the military industrial complex gained power. It created innovation at the expense of freedoms. Why? What are you talking about? Wall Street wants this to create the illusion that they’ll end up footing the bill, but they won’t. They already do It’ll probably end up losing the US tax revenue, which isn’t great. or when we changed the caliber of all of NATO's guns in the most inconvenient way possible Or it could work like the Paris Accords, where the president just signs an agreement that has no enforcement mechanism. This sounds like the beginning of a Ronny Chieng bit The league of nations worked out great! To be fair, the US already has a global tax for companies, so we kinda already do “sanction” the ones that don’t pay it The problem is if we sanction them and no j on me else does they will move to tax havens. Off shoring gas decimated the US. It will soon decimate china when their labor costs rose as quality of living rises. India, Vietnamese, Nepal will be the new china and they will get to experience jobs being removed Or, you know, fix your tax system to begin with... Go to r/politics if you're going to whinge aimlessly Do you have any info on the background of the global minimum tax? This isn’t something Yellen came up with. This is something the US is implementing because of the OECD BEPS 2.0 initiative. Thats a good point. Have you actually read the decision? What exactly did you disagree with. They bent over backward to tell congress to make a law already and quit relying on the court to do their dirty work. I concur however the Govt has gotten too big and the agencies are too far gone. There is no going back. Electing new people won’t help. Term limits may help, eliminating 90% of agency/bureacracy head count may help.. So then is California the most regressive state in the country and Florida etc not? California sales tax is 7.25-10% (9.5% in LA and 8.85% in nyc). While Republican states have cheaper sales tax (7% in Miami 8.25% Austin The red states also generally don’t have an income tax and have higher property tax which tends to impact wealthy people more. Exclude foodstuffs and problem solved. To your point, I would treat all income as income. Tax everything at the ordinary income rate with no lower rates for dividends or long term capital gains. Wrong, a retail sales tax is the opposite of ""regressive"". Higher incomes always have more discretionary spending. The poor, and middle class are now taxed on 100% of earned income which they then use the post tax leftovers to pay for living, and medical expenses. Under sales tax unless you tax RENT the poor, and lower middle class will be paying MUCH less taxes. Even better what taxes you pay are immediately obvious, and you don't need to hire a tax expert at the end of the year to find out what you paid. This eliminates the divide between the rich who live on Capitol gains, and working class that punch a time clock, and pay nearly double the rate on earned income. Definitely not a libertarian. Worked for a really rich one once upon a time. I’m a free market economist by orientation. I just put in a paragraph break. Thanks for pointing that out! It's working as designed. My exact quote was, ""eat the rich"", but the media always gets it wrong. This would replace BEAT so I don’t see the problem. Why do you think this would decrease US tax revenues? Start Googling board of directors of your favorite company, then members of Congress. It's the same picture. Because its a step toward eliminating tax loopholes. Why is that a bad take? Global minimum rates just transfer tax revenue from poorer countries to richer countries. This agreement is very much a bad thing that would hurt developing countries and the US Who’s defending the tax dodgers? 💯💯 Look at Irelands GDP compared to Germany, less taxes and regulations work. One of the reasons for the oil crisis is because of regulations stopping production & refinement. Of course sarcasm. Doesn't make sense any other way! Edit-Thanks for the award lol Doing what she is doing is literally targeting business and setting up the US for catastrophe. All it takes is one country to break it and offer low corporate taxation and the flood of jobs leaving will be very real. When you increase taxation you decrease profit and in turn you decrease R&D as well as decrease new product investment. This has been tried numerous times and has been a catastrophic failure every time. Just like everything else with the left it’s “well it will be different this time! We have this person that has the claim it will be different and so it will be!”. In the end it won’t be and you are just hurting your own economy. It is incredibly intelligent during a recession too, must be part of the Biden “Build …. Back ……. Uh what was that word again” Plan. More destruction brought to you by your friendly government dictator Democrats. World Economic Forum You'll own nothing, and you'll be happy. This is how our world could change by 2030. https://m.facebook.com/worldeconomicforum/videos/10153920524981479/ Ahhh, but you have heard of me. 😆 >one of the most reliable ways to curb inflation is taxing the wealthy There isn’t really true, and especially not true for corporations. Wealthy people have a very low marginal propensity to consume, so higher taxes won’t really reduce the demand for most goods I'm specifically talking about corporate taxes. It will result in less companies ending up paying little to no taxes on their profits Partnership units and a nominally-capitalized GP corp Well millions of people will suffer and die without the current economic infrastructure so I don’t think it’s very funny That's basically already happened with the inflation from quantitative easing but I don't think the economists that are funded by the US chamber of commerce will interrupt their jawboning to mention that. They'll just tell you some bullshit about consumer surplus and reserve price to try to convince you that you somehow saved money Ya well if you’ve seen how military contracts are structured you’d know there is no intensive for innovation. Innovation being defined as making things more advanced and cost efficient, it’s one of the reasons why the American military is pricy. Because they actively subvert any positive change? Socialist governments want this so countries like Ireland can’t do too well attracting new business and growing their economy. It’s also why their is a mass exodus from California and New York to Florida and Texas. >that they’ll end up footing the bill, but they won’t Who will? But in this case the US doesn't really have any strong incentives not to follow up on the deal. While I wholehartedly think the US should follow up on the Paris Accords and hope they will do so now after Biden has rejoined it, I also acknowledge that there were several economic reasons not to follow them. A global minimum corporate tax rate doesn't really have the same negatives for the US, which already has an above average corporate tax rate. The whole global minimum tax came about as part of the OECD’s BEPS 2.0 initiative. This wasn’t the US’s idea, they’re just going along with the BEPS plan. If they move, take their shit. Sorry did you want your billions in assetsback and access to every global market that accepted the tax? Then play by our rules. The problem started when countries started pussyfooting around companies instead of showing them they exist at the behest of the people, to serve society. If they stop doing that, we take their toys away with guns. Not arbitrarily, predictably with the rule of law. The problem is if we sanction them and no one else does they will move to tax havens. Off shoring jobs decimated the US. It will soon decimate china when their labor costs rose as quality of living rises. India, Vietnamese, Nepal will be the new china and they will get to experience jobs being removed This cancer has been here throughout human history. There have been no great leaders or civilizations. All were built on human suffering at the bottom, and gluttony at the top. We just have 100% proof now due to the internet and it’s causing a lot of stress, anxiety, mental health issues, addiction issues, suicide, shootings etc. Remember those movies about crazy conspiracy theorists (I think there was one with Mel Gibson actually called Conspiracy)? Yeah, now the majority of citizens are like this. Shitty public servants ( I will no longer call them leaders or rulers, they should be referred to as servants), have screwed everyone up. You'll hear this about everything it's such a good point. Thank God (and the Founding Fathers) for term limits, otherwise we'd be stuck with some of these shitbags for some time. No worries though, it wouldn't be an overnight fix, but I think if we gradually inject some sanity back into DC (and where it doesn't interfere with everyone else's business), we can get that train back on track. The loud minorities (left and right) took the helm and nearly crashed the ship, but we can take it back on the right course. Again, thanks to that beautiful Constitution and those beautiful term limits. That's why I love this country. Have a great weekend! Yes. Sales tax is inherently regressive, therefore California and New York have more regressive tax policies than Florida when it comes to sales tax. >The red states also generally don’t have an income tax and have higher property tax which tends to impact wealthy people more. Well, that depends on what you mean by ""impacts more"". Wealthier people would pay a higher total amount than a poor person, however, it would be a lower percentage of the wealthy person's overall income. This means that unless the property tax is progressive with respect to total income, it's still a regressive tax scheme that places a higher burden on lower-income residents. Illinois we have one of the highest income tax rates, highest property taxes and some places have sales tax over 10%. Right, food is the only thing poor people spend money on...? A retail sales tax is the definition of regressive. As in, if you Google ""regressive tax example"", a sales tax is literally the first thing that pops up. https://imgur.com/a/xm9Jz4F This absolutely does nothing to eliminate any divide between rich and poor, and only exacerbates it. You are literally arguing that up is down here... And if you're not capable of changing your opinion upon receiving new information, then there's no point in continuing this conversation because you are flat out wrong on all counts here. Don't care what you call yourself. If you want o play pretend with fake economics, go over there. I still don’t understand why you’re concerned about a VAT tax regime. There is no proposal to have one in the US. The global minimum tax is not VAT. Am I missing something? Pillar 2 would replace BEAT/GILTI, but with more relaxed rules. The more countries that adopt the 15% minimum, the more foreign tax credits US companies can use to offset their US liability. They’ll also be able to carry the excess forward, which they can’t currently do Pillar 1 changes the formula for multinational apportionment by placing a larger percentage on the residency of the end buyer. It’s supposed to end up shifting revenue from countries where a lot of production and payroll occur (like the US) towards countries that buy those goods Do you actually think the United States chamber of commerce is with the left? The US already has a global minimum tax, which is why this deal likely would lose us revenue. There’s no “tax loophole” that this agreement is intended to solve for us 1. It’s a childish understanding of how political economy works, as if countries set their rate in a vacuum, either made in bad faith or pure stupidity á la libertarians. They are a result of a complex set of interactions between domestic stakeholders, external pressure by creditors, capital interests and transnational corporations and the balance of power between them, along with the need for accumulating dollar-denominated FX to stabilize the value of the currency, as long as the country in question partakes in dollar hegemony, which entails a constant pressure for investor-friendly measures vis-a-vis other countries. This deal sets a floor on that (on paper), in terms of one narrow policy; corporate income taxes. 2. No one’s forcing them to sign this deal; they are setting the rates they wish if they sign it. 3. No one’s stopping them from setting the rates higher if they so wish. 4. Your comment has nothing to do *at all* with this deal; how taxes are calculated and collected, e.g., based on sales made in the country, is entirely different from what the rate is, and isn’t homogenous. It transfers money from the global private sector to public sector by abolishing tax haven states. This would keep companies in the US while making it easier for most countries to inflict tax bills The US military implicitly and explicitly ‘supports’ a number of nations with low/well below average corporate tax rates. There is a strong argument that tax havens, even democratic ones, are a drag on democratic functions in other larger non tax haven democracies. Yes, it is true. Please, im not going through this song and dance where you don't actually know what you are talking about and raise vague objections. Your logic is flimsy at best and not grounded in any actual academic works. Who do you think corporate profits go to? Are you sure this deal is a positive change? The U.S. isn’t a socialist country. The U.S. has a mixed economy, exhibiting characteristics of both capitalism and socialism. Such a mixed economy embraces the free market when it comes to capital use, but it also allows for government intervention for the public good. Taxpayers, duh. I disagree, there’s a huge incentive for the US not to follow through with this. It probably loses us tax revenue, and we’d have to raise our own minimum tax to match the 15% Yeah that’s not why companies exists. Your statement is delusional everywhere except Russia and china. You are discussing state owned not private property of companies. I mean, I wouldn't say they actively screwed everyone up - it's more like society is collectively reeling at the information spotlight being placed on our warts - they were always there but yeugh we don't like looking straight at them. We're going to get them removed but it requires toughening up, putting a plan in place, and executing on it. And at the scale of a nation, it will take many years. We have to buckle up and get going though. You don't get to fix it by complaining alone. Lol more like self servants there have been admirable attempts, specifically those who pushed the transition from monarchies to democracies. No leader or civilization have been perfect but is there a different time period you would rather live where you think you would be afforded more rights or freedoms? Ummmm, the only federal office with a term limit is POTUS, and that was added in the 20th century. Well articulated…right on. Never give up. Losers give up. It’s always the people who proclaim to love the Constitution the most who seem to know the least on what’s actually in it. Not really because most people wealth is actually tied up in their home/real estate and in general the home they can afford is proportional to their salary. So would you agree then that blue states are actually more regressive than red states in their taxes? If so why don’t we here more about that in your complaints about a national sales tax. To me it would be fair to have a national sales tax and then require the blue states if they want to be less regressive to reduce their sales tax. It’s a blue state so no one cares And rent, and medical bills. They have a higher propensity to consume than rich people, that generally means basic survival items (food, toilet paper). I used to work for a top-10 richest person in the US. He had a fleet of jets and lets say he didn’t drive a Corolla. When he buys another Maybach, he’ll pay 17% (or whatever the number is) on $200k versus 17% on a $22k car. I’m also ok with a flat tax, although it’s open to arguments that it’s regressive Oh, yeah if Google says it, then that's it. Up is down. I used to live in one of those ""progressive"" income tax States. I paid way more income taxes at $30k a year in that State than when I moved to a sales tax State. So you can regressive as much as you like, but you, and every other Marxist that loves forcing every lawn mower, waitress, and hair dresser to give a full financial disclosure to the Federal government, and taxing every dime earned can go to hell. Yeah, that’s not how that works. And FWIW, they points are just as valid as any. If you want to argue “what should be” then you aren’t an economist anymore, you’re a lobbyist. Bugger off and bother someone else. VAT is the competing methodology to a global minimum. A number of countries already have a VAT so it’s probably easier to implement one broadly than convince countries like Ireland to go to a global minimum. FWIW, I think a global minimum is a bad idea, also. Gotcha, I haven’t actually looked at how much tax revenue is generated from BEAT. I have very few clients that actually pay it though. One thing that seems to be overlooked with the global min tax is that state and local income taxes (and some franchise taxes) can also offset it - not just foreign taxes. When you're a conspiracy theorist, everyone is against you ...... no. Im sorry, just no. If you ae going to make things up on the spot, at least make them good lies. All that text, and you didn’t really answer the question on why it’s bad for countries to choose their own tax rates >no one’s forcing them to sign this deal Um yeah, they pretty much are, even if it’s indirectly. Countries with rates below 15% (or even above 15%) would stand to lose tax revenue by signing onto the agreement, but would stand to lose even more tax revenue by not agreeing to it. You’re pretty much forcing their hand >No one’s stopping them from setting their rates higher Of course not, but that’s not the issue. There would be no real reason to set the foreign rate above 15%, the need of those countries is to set it below 15%, which this deal wouldn’t allow >based on sales made in the country You’re referring to pillar 1 of the deal and completely ignoring pillar 2. While pillar 1 reallocates taxing rights more towards the residency of buyer, pillar 2 sets up the global minimum 15% through the UTPR and IIR, which was what my comment refers to, and the part that hurts developing countries Question for you: if a US company, for example, has an effective tax rate of 15% **solely** on its US income, why should foreign countries be able to apply top-up taxes on that US income? There’d actually be a good incentive not to organize in the US if this were to pass. Overall, countries that currently rely on foreign investment would lose out, while richer, more developed countries (except the US) would see more tax revenue Why would you assume that raising taxes on the wealthy would lower inflation? Raising taxes on people who spend most of their income certainly would, but again, this isn’t the wealthy This doesn’t change the fact that corporations pass off the tax bill onto the consumer. You are trying to move this into a completely different subject. Lol You are sure it isn’t? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Republic_of_Ireland Government intervention is almost never good. After the Great Recession, Ireland changed their system. Lowered corporate tax rates to 12% and vastly reduced government intervention. As a result they have become the gold standard compared to other EU nations. All government does is to stunt economic development with onerous regulations and red tape. Big government is the greatest threat to global financial security of sovereign people. Corporations are taxpayers ???? US corporate tax rate is already higher than 15%. How does it lose US tax revenue? If anything it mlght be a benefit because companies won't have as strong a reason to move from the US to a foreign tax haven. Companies exist for the benefit of, and at the behest of, society at large.even in private, capitalist markets. That is just a different argument as to what produces the best for society,read Adam Smith. That can change I'd companies fuck up too much. You are incredibly optimistic. The elite are never going to give up the power they wield willingly and the people don’t exactly seem ready for revolution. I do expect to see a civil war in our lifetime here in the US but I don’t know that anything will change. Yep, thanks for pointing that out Yes, that is true for most people, but those tax systems don't account for the super-rich and wealthy, which is a progressive tax system is so important. Otherwise a property tax based system is just a give-away to anyone rich enough that most of their money isn't tied up in their house. I agree that sales tax is inherently regressive. However, whether a 9% sales tax in a blue state or a flat tax on property in a red state is more regressive would depend on the totality of the distribution of the tax burden in those states. There's a very important distinction to make here between what ""sounds fair"", i.e. everyone plays the same flat %, and what ""is fair"", i.e. everyone pays an amount such that the burden of tax is evenly distributed upon the populace. Wealthy people and corporations love to push the ""sounds fair"" methodology because they don't think people are smart enough to understand basic math. Don't fall for it. The ones who care are packing up and leaving. Good for them. It's not open to arguments. It IS regressive. You got a very skewed pov here my friend. 1. Not a marxist. 2. You moved from a high tax state to a low tax state. The total amount you paid in tax says nothing about the specifics of a state's tax policy. 3. For a financial sub, you seem to be pretty bad at basic math. Your brain has completely rotted man. You need to self-examine. ""If you talk about policy then its not economics"" Thank you for once again confirm that you are playing pretend and not basing anything you say in reality. Countries with a VAT would still have the proposed global min tax (which is an income tax) just like they currently have both a VAT and corporate income tax. Not really a conspiracy.... How is it a conspiracy? They are openly the largest lobbying group in America, funded by corporations, and overwhelmingly endorse right wing politicians. I don't think the US chamber of commerce represents the interests of US labour and consumers and in no way is on the side of the 'left'. Be my guest: which US loophole would this deal solve? >make things up on the spot Feel free to tell me which part is made up. Unlike you, I can actually back up my claims Its not an assumption, its well grounded and evidence based economics. Again, you are making things up as you go, its not worth trying to debate the nuance when you throw it out the window and invent new things to say on the spot. Again, this is has always been false. Repeating the same lie over and over doesn't make it true. Im jot changing the subject at all. I don't think this will be productive. You are already deploying dishonest tactics like accusing me of changing the subject when I've been talking about the same thing the whole time. I’m under the impression it’s bad It’s not just about the domestic tax rate, countries have to set a minimum tax rate on foreign income. Right now, the US is the only country that has one, but that rate is often below 15% Since we already get revenue from that tax though, the new agreement doesn’t really bring us extra revenue. But with more countries adopting a 15% rate, the US gets more foreign tax credits to use to offset their US tax Pillar 1 of the deal is also set up to shift taxing rights away from the US and towards the countries where the goods are sold You found 1 person to agree I don’t feel it is worth my time for a lesson in capitalism and the govt seizing private citizens investments as a bad idea and the fastest way to grind an economy and investments to a halt. I can find many differing opinions on any topic. I appreciate your response with a source I however will disagree with him and you in the matter and I am comfortable knowing that many agree with me as may agree with you. The reverse is incredibly pessimistic - as if the society of today is even remotely as bad as it was even 100 years ago. I think it's very realistic to expect things to continue improving, even if that improvement does not come freely or easily - hence, why i said, we have to buckle up and get going on fighting for it, and not giving up just becuase it's not perfect *now*. It will never be perfect - we must always fight to maintain it, even when progress is achieved. Most poor people don’t own homes or pay income taxes. So if you pay tax in a red state your tax burden is less then a red state. Super Wealthy people don’t get taxed on income only capital gains. I just point it out because democrats talk about all this stuff but in practice a lot of their policies are actually worse. A National sales tax really negatively impacts poor people in blue states “It’s depends” is the right answer. At a 5% flat tax, it’s not regressive. At 20%, it is. We would definitely need to do a national study to see what the right number is. That’s why I’m more aligned with a consumption tax. Right now, we punish income, so we incentivize consumption (make more, spend more). We need to incentivize saving by make consumption punitive in a sense. I’m open to all ideas, honestly. But wealth expropriation, like is suggested by the communists and socialists in the legislative branch, signals the dying breath of an empire. My income tax bracket was 10%. The sales tax rate is 10%. But they are not the same. In the income tax state roughly a third of my paycheck was removed from taxes, but 10% was State income tax withholding. But let's look at the breakdown. $30k per year. That's $2,500 a month. 10% is $250 a month State income taxes. $212 FICA $250 Federal income taxes. $1,200 a month RENT. (Not a legal income tax deduction). $200 a month food (also not deductible). $450 a month clothing, furniture, entertainment. (Not deductible, and subject to sales tax). So under a 10% sales tax I paid $450 x 10% = $45 a month in sales taxes. Rent, and food are not subject to sales taxes, but are paid with post income tax income under ""progressive"" income taxes. >Not a marxist. All marxists say that. A progressive income tax is one of the planks in Karl Marx's book ""Communist Manifesto"". You need to ask yourself a question. Is the purpose of taxes to fund the government, or achieve income equity? The math is pretty simple. Income tax, you are taxed on ALL of your income. Wealthy taxpayers can exclude some of their income by using the many deductions available. Other than the basic individual deduction most of these are unavailable for poor, and middle class. Irrelevant really as these are attempts to make an inherently unfair tax less unfair, and are given to the politically connected. A retail sales tax taxes retail sales. Rich have more discretionary income to spend. Poor have fixed expenses like rent, food, medical care that take up to 90% of their income. These items are not subject to sales taxes. That leaves only 10% of their income taxed under sales taxes. How is this regressive? 100% of their income is taxed under income taxes, and rent is paid with post tax money. How is this not regressive? You are very insulting, but have yet to present a single counter argument except ""Google"", and ""brain damaged"". The math doesn't lie. I’m not being literal. I’m discounting the value of normative economics because it quickly devolves into lobbying efforts around fairness and equity. You’re wound up pretty tight this morning. Grab some coffee and relax. It’s the Sunday thing to do. If your game is denying that international companies moving patents and holdings through chain of international tax law to avoid corporate tax exists, then you are dreadfully unqualified to be behaving so dishonestly. Its the kind of lies that are cute for a toddler but sad for an adult. It’s really funny how you are all over this post, telling people they’re wrong. But when someone slightly pushes back, you completely shut down and refuse to elaborate. How often does that actually work for you? As an accounting fundamental, higher corporate taxes must result in lower payments to shareholders, lower wages, or higher product prices. The actual incidence of corporate taxes on workers, consumers, and capital is therefore key to debates on tax policy. In other words, what I’m referring to is just accounting 101. Your failure to understand is just a result of your own low iq which can not be helped unfortunately https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0512/how-large-corporations-get-around-paying-less-in-taxes.aspx This is less of a Red Blue issue than a Rich Poor issue. The wealthy need to take on a larger share of the tax burden for it to be ""fair"". Which brings me back to my initial comment, that ""income"" needs to be redefined, and a 2% annual wealth tax on people with a net worth of over $1 billion is a good place to start. Respectfully, you are wrong on all counts here. X% will always be a higher percentage of a poor person's income relative to a rich person, thus placing a higher tax burden on the poor. The burden of tax must be distributed equally across incomes, regardless of the total amount of tax paid. Therefore, whatever X% of a flat tax is irrelevant. The idea of a flat tax is inherently regressive and 5% vs 20% vs X% wouldn't change anything about that. Absolutely nobody serious is proposing anything even close to wealth expropriation, and it's definitely not an either/or scenario, so I'm not really sure how that fits into this conversation. Raising taxes on the wealthy or even a wealth tax is a completely reasonable reaction to the levels of income and wealth inequality that we see today. So only a Marxist wants a progressive income tax? You need to get off of libertarian twitter because that's not how things work. Marx also wanted the working class to own guns so I guess I really am a marxist. Lol. I'd also like to point out that the only person talking about equity here is you, so according to your own rules, you are now Marxist. Which makes sense because you also can't do math. However, I'll be damned if I'm gonna sit here and be lectured by a filthy communist. Go eat your potato somewhere else suca. It’s ok I didn’t think you would. Im sorry that you feel me pointing put everything you are claiming is patently false and not valid usage of terms as aggressive. Perhaps reflect on that yourself. The US literally already has a global minimum tax called GILTI designed to stop this exact thing. The global agreement is based off of that tax, which is why the new agreement doesn’t actually change any behavior of US multinationals. In fact, the new agreement would most likely provide the US with less tax revenue than what we currently get. This is what I’ve been saying the entire time, but you’ve been more interested in avoiding an actual discussion, probably because you have no idea what you’re talking about Sorry, but thats simply not true. You got caught outright lying about multiple thing. You are more than free to continue believe that you have someone shut me into a corner by making statements so obviously made up from whole cloth that the patterns and scissors are still lying around. It affects absolutely nothing but your ego. No, no its not ""simple accounting"". The decision making process for pricing is incredible complex and because taxes are an after the fact, percentage based cost, they do not have a preemptive affect on prices. Further, we have mountains of real world evidence; corporate taxes do not meaningfully bump prices, and have a positive effect on inflation. You do not know what you are talking about How can you value wealth. It’s rather subjective. It needs to be taxed as an inheritance. The wealthy people in the US (top 1%) pay 40% of all tax receipts, top 10% pay 70% and the top 25% pay almost 90%. The bottom 57% pay no tax. Source: https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/03/25/57percent-of-us-households-paid-no-federal-income-tax-in-2021-study.html So how much more do you want to raise taxes and on who? Wealth taxes are probably unconstitutional tbh. They also have some pretty negative side effects. Why not just tax income more? You haven’t heard folks like Elizabeth Warren and Sanders use phrases like “a one-time wealth tax?” This is used constantly so they fund their social welfare schemes. 100% agree with your comment above. Taxes are supposed to be punitive. You are paying to support the government. I do not agree, fundamentally, in refundable taxes to redistribute wealth. Freedom is not dependent on the amount of money you make. 10% of a rich persons income is the same percentage as 10% of a poor persons income. The rich don’t consume freedom at a more rapid rate than the poor. I fundamentally reject the argument that they should pay less. Marx wanted his revolutionary (Brownshirts, Bolsheviks,...) armed, not everyone. By definition a flat tax is neither progressive nor regressive. The only purpose of a progressive tax is net equality of income after taxes. And that is exactly what the US progressive income tax tries to accomplish. It it a tax on the working class, and ONLY the working class. The rich live on stock options, and capital gains, not earned income. By definition only the middle class work on an annual salary. Get over yourself. You didn’t point anything out as false. Go reflect on shoving this. No, foreign controll taxes are not the same thing as this proposal, again, simply trying to steam roll the discussion with made up facts doesn't work against adults. Good day. Hey your talking about what you don’t understand again. Give me literally any specifics at all, instead of trying to deflect. Tell me, specifically, what I’ve lied about. Or tell me how taxes on the wealthy stop inflation. You’ve got to defend your view at some point It may not be simple to you but it is to anyone with a brain. lol. It is literally a fundamental law of accounting. Corporate taxes are passed on to either shareholders, wage earners at the company, consumers of the product, or some combination of the 3. In other words, the people always pay the tax. You need to stick to simpler subjects, clearly. So what? Someone worth $100,000,000 isn't going to feel an extra 5%, so I don't know why you're acting as though the super yacht class will starve or experience a drop in their quality of life. The wealthy pay more tax because they have more money. Poor people can't afford to pay more in taxes. So if you want to raise money, you have to raise taxes on the people with the money. I'm not sure that they would be unconstitutional considering ""rich person"" is not a protected class, however, I am not a lawyer, so I'm just talking about efficacy. And I'm not worried about capital flight because where are they gonna go? The only currency worth having is the USD, the ILS, or the CHF, and the last two are too small to absorb too much overseas wealth. The US is the best place in the world to park your wealth and everyone knows it hence the capital inflow into the US. The problem with taxing income is that the superwealthy don't earn a paycheck. They invest in assets or in the market. So while we should create new and higher tax brackets and raise capital gains, it's not enough to cover the current budget shortfall and unfunded liabilities, let alone expand the social services offered to the populace. The tax argument is silly when you actually understand that the bottom 45-55% in the US pay no income tax normally. So what? I advocate for a permanent and annual wealth tax on anybody with a net worth over a billion dollars. And you can smear it as wealth redistribution all you want, but that fundamentally is what taxes are. The method by which the government can collect funds so it can redistribute that well to other projects that would benefit the people, with services that you might call ""social welfare schemes"". The military, roads, the fire department, hospitals, schools, regulatory agencies, food stamps, the post office, etc.. all of these essential services require taxes, and if the wealthy have to pay just a little bit more so that the people can have health care and free public university and childcare, then I don't think anybody's going to cry some tears for Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos or the Koch brothers. That's not socialism or communism or whatever. That's just a government taking care of its people which is what a government is supposed to do. You seem pretty wound up this morning. Oh, it’s you. As always, feel free to tell me how any of that is wrong. I did write my masters thesis on the US tax that underpins this entire agreement, but I’m always glad to hear your expert opinion Had you not lied at every turn in response to my elaborations, we might have had a conversation. As it is, you are a waste of time. Good bye. Heres an analogy i think will be helpful to you. Knowledge is like a vast room with a candle at the center. As one's knowledge of a subject increases, the radius of the candle's light expands. But as this light encompasses more and more, so too does the dark perimeter of the candles expand, revealing more and more to the viewer how much there is yet to learn. You, my friend, have one eye closed and the other pressed up all the way to the candle flame, unable to see the shadows, declaring yourself to have all of the understanding that is required. No, it is no way a simple subject to approach from any angle. There are tens of thousands of companies each with a multitude of products with millions of people making decisions and millions more people reacting to those decisions. If anybody trues to say ""its simple"" in economics, that is an immediate indicator that their opinion is worthless. Who is defending them? You don’t even understand basic terms though people in the US aren’t taxed on net worth but income and capital gains on sales. Let’s say like you want we taxed 80% of the wealthiest 1%s wealth that money would only cover our deficit for 20 years and the country would be a lot worse off. But let’s say we used that to implement Bernie’s healthcare plan all of it would be gone and accounted for and we would still have a deficit just in that alone of $3 trillion Wealth tax isn’t the answer. You’re essentially double taxing people’s money. First when they pay capital gains tax, and then every year as the value of their assets increase (in large part due to inflation). Plus, forcing an individual to sell off an asset just to be able to pay the tax is plain unreasonable. A founder would essentially have to sell off his own company’s stock, just to have enough liquidity (to pay the taxes). The other issue that if you start at $1B, it won’t stay at $1B. In 5 years some politician will decide that it needs to be lowered to $500M, then $10M and before you know it, people making over $100k/year won’t be able to hold on to their assets due to the wealth tax. No, I can’t agree to a wealth tax. It gets too close to government sanctioned theft in my eyes. However, taxing loans over a certain amount (with assets as collateral) makes more sense to me. That would also help limit the issue of money laundering through art. I don’t agree with you. What you’re advocating for is socialism. We won’t reach agreement because our points of view aren’t compatible. Have a good day! Not really. Found some great Seattle coffee to add to the collection (Broadcast Roasters if you drink coffee). Deep breaths, Herb. Lol, your arrogance is astounding, I’ll give you that sounds like your beef is with reality. Good luck to you. I think it's pretty clear to any third party that I understand those things and that I'm saying that wealthy people should start being taxed on net worth, which would imply that I also understand that they aren't currently being taxed on net worth. >Let’s say like you want we taxed 80% of the wealthiest 1%s wealth that money would only cover our deficit for 20 years and the country would be a lot worse off. But let’s say we used that to implement Bernie’s healthcare plan all of it would be gone and accounted for and we would still have a deficit just in that alone of $3 trillion What? That doesn't even make sense... I don't think this conversation is worth continuing here. Have a good one. No, thats social democracy, which is what we already have. >social democratic capitalism — a democratic political system, a capitalist economy, good elementary and secondary schooling, a big welfare state, pro-employment public services, and moderate regulation of product and labor markets. Socialism would be a centrally planned economy where private enterprise is banned or restricted and the government controls the means of production. >so·cial·ism >/ˈsōSHəˌlizəm/ >noun >a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole. You should do a little more introspection on your opinions because they are not well-founded in facts. My friend, if you are trying to pass yourself off as the cool calm one, it helps if you didn't just have an outburst Uh huh. You keep telling yourself that while saying things like ""pricing decisions are simple"" The top one percent in the country control $34.2 Trillion Dollars of wealth. If we instituted a wealth tax for 80% of their wealth that would be tax receipt of $27 trillion dollars. The US deficit is between $1-2 trillion annually meaning in just 10-25 years if we don’t cut spending all of that money would be gone. More than likely if we did that we would increase spending and implement something like Bernie’s healthcare plan which has an estimated cost of $33 trillion. If we did that and taxed 100% of the top 1% wealth we would be back to running deficits in 1 year. We have a spending problem not a tax receipt issue. Listen pal. I’ve gone easy on you. I’m sure you were history major at some twerpy liberal arts school. I kindly excused myself from the conversation. Go hump someone else’s leg. As I’ve gotten older, my tolerance for bs has drastically decreased. I never said that… you truly are a moron lmao If we taxed the ultra wealthy of a large portion of their wealth, and continued to tax their high earnings, that would *substantially* reduce their ability to ~~bribe~~ lobby congress into enacting corrupt policies. Lmao is this a walking talking meme You're correct that you simply disagree on the gov't role in addressing the wealth gap The other guy is upset because despite that disagreement, you are spreading misinformation about the very real impact that tax policies have on those who are not wealthy. Oh, you took it easy on me? Well go back and get your big boy opinions. I'll wait. EDIT: Bachelors in Electrical Engineering from Tel Aviv University. Suck it. That is patently false, as you have done absolutely nothing in this comment section but make vague, unfounded accusations both about economics and personal attacks that reflect your temperament more than anyone else's. Your demeanor and language belies an intellectually incurious person who passes their political opinions as the objective base state of the discussion, and therefore all else is ""lobbying"" and politics intruding on your supposed pure, factual economics. Drink your coffee in silence. It will be better for everyone involved. >It may not be simple to you but it is to anyone with a brain. lol. It is literally a fundamental law of accounting. Mhm. Right. You are a strange one, thats for sure. Bye That wouldn’t solve the deficit lol and would allow us to increase spending. It’s scary that someone can say if we tax people on 90% of their wealth and tax 40% of income we will still have massive deficits if we were to implement Bernie’s health plan. People bring up something else totally irrelevant. Go screw yourself loudly. If you’re going to be an asshole, you need to hear it loudly. I was referring to the simple accounting fundamental regarding corporate taxes, not “pricing decisions”, which is something you tried to insert since you don’t have a point. That's not what I said. What I said was that taxing the ultra rich would reduce corruption in the government. Which it would, since a lot of the corruption comes from monied interests. What's actually scary is people defending billionaires who make the lives of their employees shit in order to add an extra million onto their dragon hoarde. They'd gladly make you a slave if they thought they could get away with it Hmm, actually, i think lay off the coffee. It seems to make you quite prone to lashing out at people criticizing your behavior. You claimed corporate taxes are passed on in terms of rising costs. The fact that you are desperately trying to backpeddle is hilarious. I swear, it’s always the twerpy dudes a few years of out undergrad who think they have the world figured out as they drive their little Miata around town. I’m not sure if it’s because they just can’t help it or if it’s the liberal arts undergrad from Swathmore that drives their need to hump everyone’s leg they meet. It’s one of the mysteries of the universe. My vote is it’s the Miata. Don’t waste your time, he has no clue what he’s talking about I find this comment quite amusing. I think you'll find that the only one who had grand claims about the nature of economics was you, my friend. You tried dismissing even the notion of including policy in the discussion of economics as unhelpful. A truly absurd proposition to anyone who has, even tangentially, delt with economics in any real capacity. This whole comment thread has been you making absurd statements and lashing out at their dismissal, whilst trying in vain to appear as a cool, rational party. You know, you just call it as you see it, right, drinking your coffee all calm and collected. Unfortunately, that shtick got tired years ago and mostly people just see through it nowadays. “A truly absurd proposition…” Yep. It’s the Miata. Its always funny when people act smug then can't back up anything they say. Have w good one mate, and you ""coffee"". PLEASE post a pic of the Miata. I’m thinking it’s bright red. I’ll toast a biscotti in your honor." ‘Greedflation’: profit-boosting mark-ups attract an inevitable backlash,1672,https://www.ft.com/content/731e38d9-821d-4a6d-b9fd-22a5c6c0c0fd,"Realistically, how does increasing interest rates help curb this form of inflation? The common wisdom is that a new firm should pop up and undermine these low prices. For food, it seems the market concentration is not too tight, but tight enough to convince people not to buy Hood milk, but choose the local brand. People are willing to pay a premium for that nationwide brand. The problem is, we are concentrated enough in most sectors that collusion isn’t necessary to have prices rise in an anti-consumer way. It’s the phone app micro transaction model. You don’t expect everyone to buy the ability to skip an hour of waiting, but those who do will do it over and over regardless of price. We have an economy built for whales. All the free to play middle and lower class people are told is “someone is willing to pay this price, so that’s the price we are going to sell” and all the people who think they know Adam Smith will start yelling “invisible hand knows all!” So the fed increases rates, everything becomes harder, rich people can still spend more on milk. Milk keeps going up. We blame inflation on having too much cash in the market. It seems as though all that cash is concentrated more at the top end rather than the bottom, where these rate hikes and inflation are being felt. What backlash?! If people keep buying from the same place and governments keep refusing to act, why shouldn't any CEO dutifully discharging his or her duty to shareholders of maximizing profits? No amount of broadly critical talkie-talkie about ""there being companies doing this"" - rather than naming names and pointing fingers or even regulatory action with painful punishment - will have any impact whatsoever on the bottom line, and meanwhile price gouging along with the rest of the industry has clear concrete upsides for profit maximization because the average level of consumer activism is zero and those who do care don't have a genuine option to go shopping elsewhere: they'll complain of getting fleeced and still keep on coming back for more. And there have never been conditions to price gauge as good as now: a grand excuse in the form of a War somewhere in Europe (close enough to work as excuse, far enough to actually have a significant impact on business), politicians trained or bought for 4 decades to ""Not intervene in The Market"", high concentration and even Cartels in the Distribution and Retail Markets. Not only is it unsurprising that decision makers in these industries are doing this, it's even unsurprising that neither governments are lifting a finger to stop them nor consumers are going elsewhere or that pushback is entirelly talkie-talkie: it's the level of ""backlash"" that has those guys laughing all the way to the bank. The solution is improved market competition. The graphs in the article show about a 3% increase in profits (as a percent of revenues) from trough to peak. Where has the other 22% of price increases over the past 3 years come from? You might have as well shared an image…FT is paywall This is very common in Argentina. When different sectors receive a salary increase, people suddenly have more purchasing power, then businesses realize this and increase prices and your salary is behind again. Sadly it´s really hard to break this cycle when it becomes something ""normal"". At the beginning of this journey after the supply chain got screwed up, I definitely believed it was supply chain related. 3 years later, supply chains have returned to normal (more or less) and we're still dealing with price hikes due to ""supply chain "" issues Meanwhile, profit margins continue to be posted at historic levels. It's madly insane how short term oriented corporations have become, favoring short term profits over long term viability. If firms can arbitrarily raise prices whenever they want how is it possible for them to ever lose money? But I was always told that if wages are raised, then we would see the cost of food skyrocket. So like, why aren’t we getting our raises? Someone was lying… The question is how to collectively punish those companies. Cause me not buying some things is not going to move the needle in any way. Revolution! Lmao the irony of sharing paywall articles about greedflation I always find the term ""greedflation"" hilarious. There already is a term for the condition where businesses discover that they can make more money by raising prices. It's called **inflation**. That's literally how inflation works. Market conditions change and the profit-maximizing price-point increases. The economy was never based on the principle that businesses were charging low prices out of the goodness of their hearts. [deleted] Eat the rich Only the fed and printing money causes inflation. Nothing else. There hasn’t been inflation. I don’t think inflation even exists. Marking shit up has existed since the pandemic. Need to break up monopolies. Eggs are really expensive, because they are making enormous profits off them. Same goes for gas but let's blame the president This is all an attemp to destabilize the economy and make the Biden admin look bad. Then i dont buy milk and tell the kids to use soda in their cereal Fackers It's called market effective pricing. As long as people are buying... If only there were real threats to established giants that could somehow afford to undercut them, this wouldn't happen. Where is your capitalism now LOL! 'Greedflation?' BAHAHAHAHA!!!! Democrats come up with new words to not accept political responsibility for their failure. you can't make money with money unless there is value tinkering that benefits one on the account of the other ... I’m loving all the bursting shelves overstocked with $8 eggs that nobody is buying. Hopefully, that stuff is getting donated to food banks eventually. If only there was a responsible entity that we could vote to put in power to help tackle and regulate such practices… I've made a almost 100%-certain decision to vastly curtail any trips to Las Vegas. The greed and prices are out of control there, and not just on The Strip. The solution is improved market competition. They call it a blunt instrument for a reason. Pommel the masses until total demand collapse requires a price rediscovery, even if a few chums starve. 700 billionaires don't even register on the aggregate demand curve, for milk, but if we're talking megayachts that's a different story as most generally aren't that liquid, and in a period of high rates stagnant business activity even billionaires will think twice before another yacht purchase. Opportunity cost would cause them to relocate said yacht fund into sonething more attractive instead, like sweeping up distressed business assets or purchasing your NASDAQ equity that's already cratered 80%. A more nuanced approach may be to modify anti-price-gouging laws to limit profit margins on essentials such as food, energy and housing, limited to periods where inflation is running >x%. But to get Congressional action on that would require a Herculean effort overcoming throngs of special interest groups thats able to buy enough political capital to squelch any kind of common sense policymaking. You hit the nail on the head. The issue is too much cash at the top of the market, not the market as a whole. You are very right and you are actually highlighting one of the other components to inflation less talked about. The idea behind interest increase is to drain the general consumer spending power, lowering demand and leading to people being laid off which is an incentive for corporations to lowering prices. Jon Stewart had an interesting episode on Apple TV about inflation. What could be done but isn't, would be to look at corporate price increases instead of letting the consumer pay the price. He explains it much better than I can, but it's super interesting. >Realistically, how does increasing interest rates help curb this form of inflation? Because demand curves are not static, and they're generally downward sloping. There isn't an obvious solution. Technology necessitates ever larger capital spend. And that spend naturally consolidates entities. It's the same reason TSMC developed a dominate share of the semiconductor market. And simply splitting up oligopolies won't necessarily make prices cheaper; those same large fixed costs exist but instead of a couple large entities paying them, many small entities have to do so over a smaller base of sales. Said another way, businesses with high fixed costs will naturally become an oligopoly or monopoly. Adam Smith was right...at the time. Virtually every business could be started with a guy and a bit of.money. That's not true anymore. Try starting a car company...you need billions to have even a remote chance of success. I'm not sure how you solve this problem. There’s many ways to fight inflation, but we are told only about interest rates. In 1971 Nixon implied a price and wage freeze for 90 days. The president still has the power to do that, but it isn’t even considered publicly. More people losing jobs results in less expenditure. This uptrend before the storm is typical The Fed does not increase rates directly. They do so by reducing the money supply or reducing the rate of growth in the money supply *in the credit market* by buying or selling government bonds. This changes the amount of loanable funds and thus affects interest rates. So if they reduce the supply of loadable funds (they directly affect the monetary base), interest rates rise, thus making borrowing a loan more expensive, which reduces borrowing and spending. On an Aggregate Supply/Aggregate Demand chart, this would be illustrated by a leftward shift in the Aggregate Demand curve. Helps make seeing it more easily understood, but obvious it's a simplification. It does cut to the root of what goes on though. The interest rate hikes only hurt low and middle class Americans. The real estate firms that have turned the housing market upside down will still be able to put in that over the top cash offer. Give the Fed taxation powers on a progressive model, limited to 5-10% increases maximum on incomes. The Fed only has stupid power that bastardizes an already incredibly corrupt, anti-competitive, conglomerated corporate model. And then put the money into something bipartisan automatically, like social security. Repubs would never vote for this nor moderate dems, but better control over demand would help alleviate a lot of this balance sheet, QE, rate increase tedium which is like one jackhammer for a whole economy. u want to stop inflation by keeping rates low and the money printer turned on then? Raising interest rates shrinks the growth in the money supply. Since the money supply growing faster than underlying economy is the root cause of price increases, slowing the rate of growth slows the rate of inflation. Businesses always set their prices at the level they think maximizes their profitability. That's true when inflation is 2% and it's true when inflation is 8%. The problem is the price maximizing point is going up 8%, not that businesses are chasing it. Overall I agree with what you said, but jesus that was a mess to read. Organize your thoughts > Realistically, how does increasing interest rates help curb this form of inflation? It doesn't! >The common wisdom is that a new firm should pop up and undermine these low prices. ? The common wisdom is they're trying to flush out stale money eddies--probably some leveraged a couple times past any reasonable risks, not that any of the individual lenders might know this... or care... until now. Higher rates means lenders either do their due diligence, or they fly by night. That last paragraph \> because the average level of consumer activism is zero and those who do care don't have a genuine option to go shopping elsewhere: they'll complain of getting fleeced and still keep on coming back for more. I just shop at costco cause I got sick of the market. Whole things a scam The entrenched incompetence and adherence to clearly failing principles, as well as involvement in costly wars of symbolism are strikingly similar to the late ussr. I would anticipate systemic failure if the american people possessed a verve comparable to the russians. Unfortunately the american people are lazy, placated with material concerns and political theatre detached from reality. The most likely outcome is several generations of increasingly obvious cultural and moral decline. Correct, but will literally never happen Looking at just two of the publicly traded grocers ( Kroger and Albertsons) both seem to have only increased net margins by 1%. I feel this narrative of ""greedflation"" doesn't line up with the numbers. Possibly the profits are on the producer side, but that also means that consumer-level price gouging isn't happening, since most consumers aren't buying directly from producers. (for the US that is - I'm not sure what inflation has been overseas) You’re saying businesses somehow monitor in real time the salaries across various industries and immediately adjust their prices? As opposed to people with “more purchasing power” bidding up prices with more demand? The sub is r/finance and people posting stuff like this lol even high schoolers understand supply and demand. Price elasticity, food has less elasticity, but all goods do to some degree. Raises outpace inflation. >Cause me not buying some things is not going to move the needle in any way. Yes but everyone not buying some things would. I think the way it works is that you rally with the voting population to get legislators to enact laws that incentivize a certain behavior and disincentivize the opposite. Then when the people of that local jurisdiction start to gain measurable benefits from the enacted laws, then it gains momentum and becomes more likely to get passed in more jurisdictions. But this only works if you have a functioning democracy. It's all about incentives. If people collectively want to punish those companies, they will collectively not buy things from them. If you're the only one who cares enough to vote with your wallet, then why should your annoyance invoke a collective response from society? Costs haven’t increased as much for businesses as their profits and profit percentages have increased. The only thing that has really increased for businesses is their greed. There’s no other explanation for the sudden profit percentage increases. That's a good point Yes but profit levels, as a percentage of costs, are at record highs. There's almost certain some truth in the concept of greedflation. It might not be the whole story but it is definitely a contributing factor. WRONG! input cost as a percentage of price inflation is dwarfed by corporate profits as a percentage of price inflation. https://www.epi.org/blog/corporate-profits-have-contributed-disproportionately-to-inflation-how-should-policymakers-respond/ https://www.epi.org/blog/corporate-profits-have-contributed-disproportionately-to-inflation-how-should-policymakers-respond/ Just out of curiosity how are democrats responsible for corporate greed? (Asking for a friend). High profits attract market competition > A more nuanced approach may be to modify anti-price-gouging laws to limit profit margins on essentials such as food, energy and housing, limited to periods where inflation is running >x%. I'm not a fan of price controls. They only seem to create supply issues as business become reluctant/unable to invest in expansion. A more nuanced approach would be to enforce diversification in the market. The DOJ needs to take a significantly more proactive stance on anticompetitive behavior. They have more fine toothed instruments: The bank bailouts are targetted cash injections. > But to get Congressional action on that would require a Herculean effort overcoming throngs of special interest groups thats able to buy enough political capital to squelch any kind of common sense policymaking. I'm starting to think this is by design these days A more nuanced approach would be to have a functioning government that didn't hand out billions during the pandemic to corporations that didn't need it, then expect the fed to solve the problem. Or a functioning government that actually passed laws that made sense for the middle class instead of engaging in an endless, negative sum culture war. Would be nice if the Fed could allocate some of that top money around to other people outside the top for once, but I guess that would require an entirely new organization. Jon looked like an idiot on that segment. How could companies ever lose money if they can just arbitrarily raise prices? Unless there is a monopoly or some choke point where new participants can’t enter the market, too much excess margin is just a bounty for another firm to undercut you … consumers aren’t dumb and generally seek the lowest price Generally, but whales are the exception to the rule of downward sloping demand. To them all goods are inelastic, and if they want it, they will pay any price because they have the money. If there are people willing to pay any price, suppliers willing to test how high they will pay, and the suppliers don’t have to worry about being undercut because of market concentration, then the result is prices steady rising. To an extent, food is inelastic to everyone as everybody has to eat. This leads to people buying one dollar gas station hotdogs, and worse outcomes for our healthcare system. I’m not saying everybody should be eating lobster and caviar, but without food you die and without healthy food you won’t live long either. I think the biggest problem with people interpreting Adam Smith is that they think he hated all government action when in reality, he hated government backed monopolies, specifically the East India Company. I may be wrong, but in his time, a monopoly run by anything other than a government seemed impossible. Also, worth noting Adam Smith was a tax collector and was ok with regulation in general Make price gouging a capital crime. Heads on spikes might not change things, but after the past 70 years of class warfare it would probably be justice. Those large FIXED costs are fixed because of solidity of the larger entities in the market. If they were broken up prices would be competitive (as they should be) not fixed. Smaller business have to compete for thier piece of the consumer demand, which makes for a healthier economy. This is how the american economy began. With small businesses competing over time. As companies merged and grew they gained the ability to manipulate the market in favor of larger businesses and now use the argument that its nessisary for them to be this big, when its not. 100 small businesses providing the same production as 1 large business is better for the economy and the MAJORITY of people. Im not saying there is an obvious solution but if we dont start trying then a solution will never become obvious. Just a thought bruh capital intensity has been declining market-wide since the industrial revolution. the whole reason big tech companies command premium margins and can scale so rapidly (and hence are so valuable) is precisely because they are *not* capital intensive Raising taxes too, right? yeah and how did that work out for america? lmao The problem is that cutting the root is a temporary solution that done to much will kill the plant if you dont do something to stop the cause it will happen again and again and again and again and again.....oohhh look its the year 2520 and a gallon of milk costs 400 dollars and i make 800 dollars an hour damn that aggregate demand curve What's been happening with banks shows it's not just those with low and middle income. You've also already got richest man in the world, Elon Musk, demanding the Fed start cutting rates. No, I think keeping rates as high as they are right now is good for a while, good for keeping the normal inflation low. I’m saying we need additional tools. Just because I need a screwdriver doesn’t mean I’m telling you to throw away the hammer. Hitting a screw with a hammer might look like it should work, but doesn’t always end up how you expect. Honestly, I used voice to text for most of that, so it doesn’t read well. TL;dr: economy built for mobile game whales is creating a bubble at best or an oligarchy at worst. Lol, you think the people of the us are any worse than the Russians in this area? Russia required literally 3 coups by the elite and people are still apolitical today. True > I would anticipate systemic failure if the american people possessed a verve comparable to the russians. Unfortunately the american people are lazy, placated with material concerns You have no idea what you are talking about, and are merely fetishizing the Russians because you don't know enough about them. It's tempting to play armchair blackpilled-radical in the safe comforting bosoms of Western democracy. Ask the Russians how their two ""revolutions"" during the 20th century turned out. Stability is a GOOD thing. [deleted] It's not necesary to monitor anything in real time, as the said below, here in Argentina we are really far from a free market. Raises come mostly in two flavors. Government dictated raises, which always appear in the news, and union agreements raises, where usually the government is there as some sort of mediator. If you add to this the fact that the public employment percentage is enormous and currency inestablity (102% annual inflation and dollar related arbitrary restrictions) You get wild prices adjustments I get what you are saying, in theory I think it should work that way, but I don't know if it applies to Argentina because it's not really a free market. Imports are restricted by the government, the value of the dollar is artificial, and there are a million stupid regulations. The problem is that when the people get used to such high inflation, you lose track of what is cheap and what is expensive, and you end up not knowing how much things are worth. So some businesses take advantage of this confusion to increase prices because surely ""someone"" is going to pay them, and you don't have many alternatives otherwise. ...you say this like its some impossible thing. What do you think financial analysts do??? They are absolutely monitoring how much they can squeeze out of people Nobody in this thread understands it, apparently You mean price \*inelasticity\* but no, the elasticity of goods varies wildly That would be nice, if everyone was seeing income increases. > get legislators to enact laws that incentivize a certain behavior This is also part of the problem. Whenever legislators pass new regulation, it adds to the costs of doing business. We generally consider this acceptable as we expect big companies to serve the people fairly and if that adds to the cost, so be it. Unfortunately, it adds to the costs for everyone not just big companies. If we expect new businesses to be created when they see an opportunity to undercut the prices of the status quo, adding more regulation makes it harder for them to start. Perversely, large companies are precisely those most able to absorb the costs of regulation. We saw the devastating effects of Covid lockdowns on small businesses around the country. Even Mom-and-Pop restaurants and shops that had been open for 30 years couldn't survive. Target and Walmart went on to make record profits as they absorbed the customers of failed Mom-and-Pop businesses. You can’t reason with these people who have been brainwashed by the “free market” illusion. Meanwhile, our corporate overlords have been consolidating industries and weaponizing geopolitical events to squeeze as much profits from the people doing their bidding. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=9rK Prices to producers increased pretty far above consumer prices according to the data Prices are going up because of all the money printing coupled with supply shock. More money chasing fewer goods means prices have to rise to balance the supply-demand equation. In the short term this can add to profit margins, but that's always a temporary effect. The long term effect is that companies reinvest their profits from those years into fixing the supply problems to meet demand, and profit margins return to normal. That's a big fat opinion piece if you read the ""study"". > https://www.epi.org/blog/corporate-profits-have-contributed-disproportionately-to-inflation-how-should-policymakers-respond/ FYI EPI is a left-leaning think tank so doesn't disprove OP's comment. Cal-Maine(largest U.S. supplier of eggs) just posted a 700% increase in profits. Did they create a new way to make eggs? Did streamline their practices to such efficiency their profits rose? No would be the answer. Is Cal-Maine going to use these new found profits to invest in exapansion? Only if by expansion you mean consolidating their market share than yes. In reality, they will buy back stock and dole out large bonuses to upper executives. To me, their price increases are no different than a gas station owner demanding $20 for a bottle of water during a crisis. We wouldn't tolerate the price gouging from the gas station owner, and we shouldn't tolerate it on something as simple as eggs. IMO. This reluctancy is the major problem our economy is majority run by people who would sooner see it colapse than give up ANY amount of profit the way i see it if you want to own a business you have to benifit the economy not just shareholdes, your profit margins, or consumers but the whole economy we need profit limits the same as speed limits because without limits self rightouse im smarter cause i have money business owners are runing everyone off the road driving fast in monster trucks I’m on team DOJ trust busting Perhaps less of an outright control and more of an ""excess"" tax on the backend to disincentivise gross margin expansion while using inflation as an excuse to upcharge. Would require some fleshing out as I'm sure a blanket rule would just create an industry for more creative accounting types Yea the primary effect of monetary policy since 2008 has been the exponential snowballing and transfer of money supply to fewer and fewer hands, while the overall activity of money has been on a very steep decline in the same period ... it's almost comical when you look at it [https://imgur.com/wwOoa34](https://imgur.com/wwOoa34) the problem is most industries are so consolidated at this point its very difficult for the little guy to offer a lower price, even with rampant gouging. Regulations that protect consumers have been gutted. Regulations that entrench the status quo and erect barriers to entry have been reinforced. This is all well documented and discussed by actual economists. Access to capital has been consolidated. This isn't some whiney, occupy wall street conspiracy theory. It's touted by modern theorists and the current conditions are even warned against in the original manual by Adam F'ing Smith. Major elements of the global economy like energy, autos, and housing are switching to a supply limitation/DeBeers model. If you can't follow Stewart's message, there's an idiot around but it ain't Jon. > To an extent, food is inelastic to everyone as everybody has to eat. > I’m not saying everybody should be eating lobster and caviar But that's just it. Food demand is still quite elastic, even if there's a floor in terms of quantity of calories that everyone must purchase. Between the two extremes there's lots and lots of room to maneuver. Some kind of grain plus some kind of legume (e.g., rice and beans, rice and lentils) will satisfy the bare minimum biological need for sustenance at a low price. The vast majority of us, though, are eating stuff further up the price per calorie scale: dairy, eggs, meat, vegetables, fruit, seasonings and flavor, etc. Even within those categories, there's a wide range in price per serving: generally, chicken costs less than pork, which costs less than beef, which costs less than shrimp, which costs less than lobster. And even within those categories, different cuts and grades will cost different amounts. Even the very rich will balk at the perception that they're being taken advantage of. I know I can afford the $20 Fiji water in the Las Vegas suite, but I'm not fucking rewarding that business practice. So there's still price elasticity, even at prices seen as trivial for the super rich. The slope of the curve might look different for certain items and at different price points, but it still always slopes downward. >To an extent, food is inelastic to everyone as everybody has to eat. Demand for food is elastic because if you jack up the price of gas station hot dogs, consumers switch to gas station burritos. >whales are the exception to the rule of downward sloping demand. To them all goods are inelastic, and if they want it, they will pay any price because they have the money Then why doesn't everyone just increase prices so everyone can be rich? The reality is that government has an important role to play in economies. The idea that the free market self-solves all problems is flat out wrong. The compounding effect is real. Power builds upon itself. I think we need a capital punishment for companies. Any company found guilty of gross negligence resulting in the death of a worker//should// see demand dry up due to raw social effects . Unfortunately it doesn’t work that way in a concentrated economy. All shareholders get a payout in the liquidity of the company and whatever comes of the non liquid assets as well. The problem is that it's near impossible to have 100 semiconductor manufacturers. The equipment is so obscenely expensive, you would need massive increases in chip prices to support those 100 companies. It's an area where due to technology it's impossible for large scale competition to exist without regulation. And if you did regulate to cause more competition, you wouldn't successfully lower prices. Nvidia only has an operating margin of 20%. The absolute most decrease in price possible through competition is 20%. So let's not pretend like we're all getting massively price gouged because there aren't 100 GPU makers. Reducing the money supply lowers prices. Rising prices come from increasing the money supply (which lowers interest rates). They really should be reducing the money supply rather than lowering the rate of increase, but they don't want to be overly aggressive because doing so will cause a recession But is it really hurting Elon musk or rich people? They will still be flying around on private jets. Way worse- Russia has had two significant changes in government in the last century. America has had zero in three centuries. Life is mainly a steady plod forward with short sharp periods of sudden change when all the accumating problems and limitations of the years of steady plodding forwards become unbearable (and things actually start going backwards). They need not be traditional Revolutions, but often are and a lot of people suffer from it. However without those short-sharp moments of change we would stop going forward. Sadly we humans are a lot more animal than we care to admit. https://www.tradealgo.com/news/what-excuseflation-is-doing-to-prices-and-corporate-profits Do you have any specific, provable examples of this? Because it makes no sense what you're saying outside of a monopoly price situation. Restrictions on imports and heavy regulation support the theory that consumers are just bidding up prices. If the supply of a good is limited, then increases in wages will naturally result in increased prices. Otherwise, those goods would just get rapidly sold out, then resold for higher prices by scalpers Prove it That’s not what financial analysts do lol Your question isn’t answered by inelasticity? They will lose money if there is great elasticity, that by raising price there is a disproportionate shift. Like that’s going to ever happen. Sounds like a different problem to solve. Big business owns all the infrastructure. Maybe it's time to split them up? The data and the theory cohere. The CPI measures a basket of goods that are mostly sold on markets that are more competitive than most (housing not so much, food and clothing more so). The PPI, conversely, is [based on all commodity prices across all sectors.](https://www.bls.gov/ppi/data-retrieval-guide/) The FRED data aligns with the following interpretation. Firms have been leveraging the expectation of inflation from money-printing, per the oversimplified folk theory, to charge each other high prices. We know that margins have been maintained or exceeded [because](https://www.businessinsider.in/retail/news/americas-biggest-companies-cant-stop-bragging-to-investors-about-how-theyre-charging-you-more/articleshow/87493471.cms) it is [being](https://www.wsj.com/articles/inflation-yellen-biden-price-increase-cost-shipping-supply-chain-labor-shortage-pandemic-11636934826) openly [reported.](https://www.businessinsider.com/corporations-using-inflation-as-excuse-to-reap-fatter-profits-reich-2021-11) For the goods in the CPI basket, the price increases have absorbed by the more competitive elements of the value chain, but not totally so, hence the CPI price increases. The price increases throughout the whole value chain have been due to the points in the chain that are (perceived) bottlenecks. I write ""perceived"" in parentheses because perception is vital to market forces. Buyers have to actually perceive a firm as charging more than a market price to seek out alternative suppliers and thereby actuate the market mechanism of competition. Expectations were messed with. This messed with buyer perceptions. This enabled firms to respond to their own expectations by raising prices to maintain margins, and continue doing so once they weren't hit with competitive pressures. There surely is reduced competition after the pandemic, but there is also reduced efficacy of the market forces that enable competition. Then profit percentage wouldn’t increase, but remain the same. >Prices are going up because of all the money printing Quantitative easing ending in March of last year >supply shock Oil has been falling continuously since its peak in Jun 2022. Yet inflation remains in the double digits? This doesn't add up. Yes some inflation is understandable but sustained double digits for two years? Greedflation is the missing link. https://www.tradealgo.com/news/what-excuseflation-is-doing-to-prices-and-corporate-profits > Cal-Maine **(largest U.S. supplier of eggs)** That's the problem. I live in an agricultural area. The chicken and egg industry has been absolutely decimated in the past 25 years due to consolidation. The solution to this isn't price controls, it's better oversight of monopolies and market consolidation. Egg prices are way up because there is a disease-created shortage. The market is rewarding Cal-maine for being less impacted by disease than its competitors. Anyone with hen-laying eggs who is able to keep their hens alive and productive is making a good profit right now. ya 100% A tax is the more interesting angle here for sure. I have i winery, i just started, famous big wineries of my Area sells wine with a 20-30% bigger price than my wine. the quality is almost the same, but everybody wants to buy the ""premium"" brand that costs more, even tho the wine is the same. I'm forced to sell 20-30% cheaper and lose on that ""premium"". Me and my business can survive with our prices, but the problem is that I can't do investments, because all the machinery and all the industry around wineries request a price that is inflated because they know that the top wineries make more money. I'm literally cut out of the growth. All the new wineries that are born in my area and succeed are made by already millionaire people that want just to invest or launder money, they open up, make all the big investments and abuse theit already formed network to become famous. It's pretty depressing that the regual guy can't even start basically. I have all this problem even tho i had wineyards and some basic machinery left to me from my dad. If someone wants to start from 0 then it's literally impossible. Give a specific example because that makes no sense. Exception being a monopoly price situation Lol Also, just because a rich person is willing to pay $20 for a bottle of water, does not mean that water should be priced at $20. If you sell 100 bottles @ $20, versus 10,000 @ $2, you'll still make a lot more at $2, so long as your margin is better than 10%. The ultra rich still consume the same number of calories, still drink the same amount of water, still have the same number of hours in their day. The way to cater to the rich is to differentiate your product and give them a luxury option, not to uniformly raise prices. Wealthy people are not the ones moving the market on staples. It seems as though that second question you asked is the thing that’s actually happening right now and the subject of the article The free market will self solve all problems. It may not find the best answer but it’s like water flowing downhill. Usually it’s how you want it to be, but after a dam breaks, it kills everybody in the town, which you want to avoid. You can use this argument against almost any economic policy. The rich people are naturally able to handle economic changes better than the poor. Because we have a democracy. A coup would completely worsen things. Look at 1992 [Here are some cases ](https://www.telam.com.ar/notas/202211/609542-empresas-precios-investigacion.html). And then [this article](https://www.lanacion.com.ar/economia/las-notebooks-aumentaron-hasta-casi-un-80-en-las-primeras-48-horas-tras-el-restablecimiento-de-los-nid19032023/) that shows how computers blew up after some import restrictions (Even for models that had stock) The point is that employers tried selling us on the lie that if wages went up, then food prices would go up. But, no one has received raises, yet food prices have skyrocketed. So really, it was greed before, and it’s greed now. I'm not sure how splitting up a massive business into multiple big businesses increases competition. Infrastructure is only part of the problem. Target and Walmart don't own the infrastructure. In cases where infrastructure is monopoly owned, it's often because of different legislation that granted private companies a monopoly and made competition illegal. How many municipalities gave companies like Comcast sole rights for ISP service which to this day leaves those customers with no alternatives and higher prices than their neighbors with multiple vendor options? Don't get me wrong. It's not that legislation cannot be written to address this, but the track record in the US for doing it is poor. They seem to favor simplistic solutions that have unintended consequences, and when they realize the error of their ways, just pile more legislation on top instead of removing the legislation that caused the problem and doing what is right. Costs for inputs are still high across the board (except energy which has tanked recently). Prices aren't going back down even with increased competition. Margins are still roughly the same. Profit margin has remained roughly the same except in a few cases. I can cherry pick a few that have bigger margins, but overall, input costs have risen globally. Firms are struggling to find the right prices right now that consumers and investors can swallow. Interest rates aren't helping things either. I work in the oil/gas industry and we are struggling. Costs for everything have skyrocketed and its barely profitable to drill at current prices. We make a good profit right now because we aren't drilling very much, but reserves are quickly depleting. Outlook is not great. The example company they use is Pepsi who raised prices to seek profit. [https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/09/pepsico-pep-q4-2022-earnings.html](https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/09/pepsico-pep-q4-2022-earnings.html) Consumers stopped buying their products and earning have tanked. The free market is doing its thing. If pepsi wants to maintain market share they will have to cut prices again. Problem: lobbying & unlimited donations. Solution: no more lobbying & capped donations. Zero corporate money in politics. If politicians’ palms stop being greased, these problems end. Greed all the way down. Everyone knows it. If you love what you do , go and invest Mendoza, Argentina. Best land for wine, cheap in $, and yes machinery will be costly, but margins will be good. Sometimes you need to look for somewhere else to do what you love grocery stores (Safeway/Kroger), convenience stores (7/11), Pharmacys (wallgreenss/CVS), Cell phone providers, Accounting firms (the big 4). Do I need to continue? Right, also wealthy people don't buy from the same places poorer people do The question was rhetorical. A bit like, ""Why don't we just print more money so people can buy more things?"" More money does not reduce the scarcity of goods. Whale demand may be inelastic, but they have access to only finite amount of resources. You can't milk whales indefinitely. We have a symbolic democracy. Ostensibly we have a corporate oligarchy. I'm not seeing proof, just same populist rhetoric that I see in the US on this issue I think you’re confused about cause and effect. >I'm not sure how splitting up a massive business into multiple big businesses increases competition. They have to compete against each other now. > Don't get me wrong. It's not that legislation cannot be written to address this, but the track record in the US for doing it is poor. I worry about this. > Margins are still roughly the same. [Bloomberg: _US Corporate Profits Soar With Margins at Widest Since 1950_](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-25/us-corporate-profits-soar-taking-margins-to-widest-since-1950) Well this article at least specifically discusses profit percentage levels being at record highs. If they were cherry picking then that’s a bit dishonest. I’m pretty sure there’s no price investors can’t swallow as long as it means more cake for them. The whole point is: While everyone’s struggling with high prices, some are making mad bank out of the situation. It’s the same people who’d try convince you to sell your oil half the price and sell it for double claiming they paid the full price. Supreme Court decided Citizens United. Until that's overturned........ > the big 4 > example of monopoly Lmfao Yes you need to continue because all you did was list some companies. WTF are you talking about? these are all effectively monopolies imo. When there is only a few competitors in your space, they don't even need to directly collude to effectively collude on price. food retail and convenience are both extremely fragmented markets. in convenience there are large players (e.g., 7-eleven, couche-tard) but an extremely long-tail of regional and mom-and-pop operators which represent the majority of market share. likewise for food retail/grocery, the 20 largest players combined represent just ~65% of the market. grocery is a particularly bad example when you consider the decade+ long trend of margin erosion in ""traditional""/legacy food retail brands (e.g., kroger, albertsons) driven by both value (aldi, save a lot, walmart, etc.) and premium (whole foods, sprouts, etc.) competitors. this trend is almost singularly responsible for any major consolidation that has occurred in the past decade (kroger/harris teeter, albertsons/safeway/etc. roll-up). worth mentioning some of the most competitive and high-performing food retail brands are regional (publix, heb, wegmans). No, not infinitely. We are in for a bubble At best or a famine with full dumpsters at worst. You’re coping so hard, if people used and coordinated their votes they can outdo any firm for political influence. If people are fooled by misinformation, then what wouldn’t they be fooled by? It’s the people’s fault for being stupid. Yes certain times corporate interests are put first, but that is a fundamental aspect of democracy. Those who can help politicians get re-elected will be prioritized. Compared to a position without term limits. There are very few countries where lobbying is illegal. Not at all. I’m bringing up specifically the lies that were told year after year by the rich, with FUD intended to suppress wages for working class people. Their marketing campaign clearly worked. And now, we’re getting smacked at all sides. When I've seen break ups happen previously, they're usually broken up into business units (e.g. when phone companies were broken up it happened along local vs long-distance service lines) which don't have to compete. Today, there's talk about Apple being broken up as they move into movies. We might wind up with 3 companies: entertainment, computers, telephones who likewise don't complete. That data is old news. Profits are down and falling hard. There was a small blip in profits as input costs crashed (mainly energy and petroleum related feedstock prices). ​ https://archive.is/9sPZz There are some profit seeking firms in the market right now, but the consumers are pulling back spending. The market is working as it should. Companies will charge the most that consumers are willing to spend. Eggs for example shot up recently. Big shortages across the US in eggs. People quit buying eggs. Prices have returned to lower prices again. Big 4 is a great example of a monopoly like conditions. They have a stranglehold on the market and the licensing conditions. They determine the working conditions, the pricing, the parameters of the engagements, they basically determine GAAP...they control the entire industry from top to bottom through a quiet collusion. You can't even get your CPA until you work for them for 2 years. Modern business learned a long time ago to stop competing and start cooperating. Sure, somebody gets backstabbed here or there, somebody is victim of a leveraged buyout or something, but those moves never benefit the customer. Where have you been living? I mean...there is still competition in some areas. Like FBA and dropshippers have raced to the bottom on F-tier quality massage guns. So, yeah...we do still have some competition. As demonstrated in practice by what happens in it, America is as much a Democracy as the Soviet Union was Communism: In the latter the situation never reached the utopia called Communism were everybody is equal (""strangelly"" it got stuck in the Revolution Of The Proletariat still with an elite with specially priviledges, just a different one) and in the former there is a duopoly on power ***de facto*** and realistically it's not possible to elect a President which is neither Republican nor Democrat - people get to vote but only on a pre-selected set of options and there are all manner of mechanisms internal to those two parties to keep the ""wrong people"" out from the race (and the rich son and granson of rich men called Donald Trump is not the ""wrong"" kind of person for the Republicans). People are used to it so don't really think it through, but the representative allocation system in the US does not obbey the ""every vote counts the same as every other vote"" democratic principle, which is why even on a Presidential vote the man with the fewer number of votes still won. I never heard any lies. I remember people making outrageous statements about what businesses were saying, but everyone knew they were just making up stuff to be offended about later. Well that all comes down to how anti monopoly laws are implemented. If breaking them up doesn't create competition, the process needs to be reviewed. [This graph is in your linked article. Profits are not ""falling hard.""](https://archive.md/9sPZz/c2bd65ee77a5f2e16298425c81b78c5db1d3921f.jpg) Dude monopoly means one company. “Mono” is one. The big 4 is by definition not a monopoly. You can argue they form an oligopoly, although there are plenty of smaller competitors, but not a monopoly. big 4 is almost exclusively public (listed) company engagements. the vast majority of businesses in the us (read: mid-market and smaller scale) use regional and boutique firms. also working big 4 is absolutely *not* a requirement for cpa licensing lol what The compromise is good. Agreed. This could be done well, but our legislators don't have a good track record of addressing complex problems. Dropping from almost 18% down to 13.86% is pretty significant. Judging by the overall wealthiest nation on Earth with still tons of natural resources having less per-capita average wealth than a great part of Europe (almost all of which has little in the way of natural resources), less median wealth that even more of it and worse infant mortality numbers than all of it, it doesn't look like it's ""good"". Wonderful propaganda and high quality washing of brains though. Wouldn't you say that the Fed's blunt instruments are working, then? This isn't a counterargument against why the inflation kicked off. If anything the data you linked to solidified the argument. I wonder: what point are you trying to make? The US can have the highest quality of life if we sell all of our oil. Sadly people care too much about the environment. The point is arbitrary prices increases are met with decreased demand. Sell less for more. Profits overall stay the same or fall depending. Wild theory, with not the slightest thing in practice to sustain it. Fracking oil wells (which is how the US produces more than consumes) are way more expensive to exploit than normal oil wells because in a mere 2 years after drilling the production is already down to 10% of the original (unlike normal wells were it takes decades for that to happen) so there is a constant need to drill new wells. So the profit margins on those are quite thin. Also the US is horrible at distributing the wealth it generates to its population, so a handful of people would be wealthier, not most, not even close to most. The graph in the article you mentioned showed that profits rose with price increases. [One of the articles I linked to above](https://www.businessinsider.com/big-companies-keep-bragging-to-investors-about-price-hikes-2021-11) included this quote: ""Unilever, which owns a staggering number of household brands, reported that while the number of sales dipped slightly across several of its major segments, it was still able to grow profits by raising prices by roughly 4%-5%."" In other words, you are not describing reality. We have 2/3 of all the oil in the world. No matter how expensive we will still be able to sell it after everyone runs out of it . The easy stuff to extract has been extracted first and things will keep on being done so because it makes no sense to pull out now the stuff that costs $200/barrel to get out if you have $100/barrel stuff you can get out first. It's the same everywhere in the World. When it comes to Fracking the baseline cost is around $80 (last I checked, about 5 years ago) and most of it is costs more that (mainly because the know reserves in shale rock that have yet to be fracked hold less of it, so for those new oil wells have to be drilled more frequently, which costs $$$) Also, people don't buy oil because they love it, they buy it because it's the cheapest way to either get the energy in a portable format or to make certain chemicals (namelly fertilizier). When oil gets so expensive that it's more expensive than other options for the same, they'll go with the other, cheaper, options - there are already ways to synthetize both diesel fuel and fertilizer without oil, they're just more expensive that doing it from oil but if oil goes up, they'll become comparitivelly cheaper. In simple terms: any business will keep on going as long as its profitable and stop when its not, and the money made from it depends on profit, not revenue - $200/barrel oil is amazing for those for whom it costs $100 /barrel to pull it out and not worth for those for whom it costs $250/barrel to do so. So, the increasing of extraction costs as shale oil extraction gets more expensive (as the best fields are depleted so extraction moves to worse, more expensive reserves) means decreasing profits, hence less wealth for America from it, and as more and more producers suffer from the same problem and oil prices naturally go up, the consumers themselves will just move over to cheaper ways of getting what they need, so even with more profit per barrel, fewer barrels are sold hence there is less overall profit, hence less wealth for America from it. The consciousness about Global Warming barelly accelerated this as the main trend was already at play at least a decade ago, which is actually why Fracking became viable as it wasn't worth it before. You really can't pick ""as it stands now"" and extrapolate by saying ""we can pull out 10x as much as we do now and thus sell 10x as much and make 10x as much"": neither Geology nor Business ventures or Markets work like that. Doesn’t matter, airplanes will never be electric. As I pointed out above, oil prices will eventually make fuel synthetising cheaper. We have replacements for oil, they're just not as cheap so make no business sense yet." Anonymous Claims It Has Released 28GB of Bank of Russia Documents,1675,https://wealthinsidermag.com/anonymous-claims-it-has-released-28gb-of-bank-of-russia-documents/,"So when are they going to get to Epstein & Maxwells info I’m gonna be honest, 28gb doesn’t seem like much. I mean some peoples email inboxes at my work are like 90gb. It could just be 28gigs of nothing - Hacking group Anonymous has reportedly published a large amount of data allegedly belonging to the Bank of Russia. The release comes after the collective announced it had hacked Russia’s central bank earlier this week, a claim that was denied by the monetary authority in Moscow. Anonymous Publishes Leaked Bank of Russia Files A group affiliated with the international hacktivist collective Anonymous, identified by the Twitter handle @Thblckrbbtworld (The Black Rabbit World), has announced it leaked 28GB of data obtained from the Central Bank of Russia (CBR). Another Twitter account associated with the hackers, @YourAnonTV (Anonymous TV), confirmed the news. On Thursday, Anonymous said it had hacked the CBR and vowed to release more than 35,000 files within the next 48 hours. According to the statement, they contain some of the regulator’s “secret agreements” among other documents. Bank of Russia rejected the claim insisting that none of its information systems had been hacked. The latest move by Anonymous comes after it declared a cyberwar on the Russian Federation over its decision to invade Ukraine. The group threatened to disrupt Russia’s internet, targeted the websites of the Kremlin, the State Duma, and the Defense Ministry as well as state-run television channels such as Russia Today (RT) and some streaming platforms. The CBR’s documents have been distributed to various online points, the hacking group noted, adding it will share them through different links if the ones it has provided are censored. According to a post by the BBC Russian Service, quoted by Forklog, in the files are hundreds of audit reports and information on bank owners. Parallel to the military conflict on the ground, Russia and Ukraine have also clashed in the cyberspace. Just before Russian troops crossed the border in late February, a number of Ukrainian websites were attacked reportedly by hackers supporting Moscow. The government in Kyiv has been recruiting experts for its cyberforce who have been allegedly involved in both defensive and offensive operations. So they’ve hacked several important organizations now. What’s come of that? Anything? Where’s all this stuff leaked to why do I never get to see it I HAVE TO CHANGE MY PIN!! Hold on, I don’t have any money in Russia… actually, I don’t have any money… this sucks So when are we going to read some real revelations from all these dumps? Are we about to learn who has been keeping Trump in business? Ahh yes ""Anonymous"" Aka CIA [deleted] I can’t wait to open Reddit and see what was released. Gotta admit I’m secretly hoping for some certain people to be caught with their hand in the cookie jar. That I would love to see The real Anonymous disappeared when Obama got in office with his executive order declaring the use of propaganda legal and his war on whistleblowers. Interesting how *Anonymous* tends to align itself with our “national interest”… It is quite adorable seeing regular reddit come in to threads like this one and turn it, once again, into a random political dumpster fire. And Trump’s name is on 20GB of it. I downloaded half of this, it’s only pdffiles and some jpg files, everything in russian… Hell yes. The people strike back! Anonymous——>C.I.A. That’s why no work on trump or Epstein. Trump? Did anyone else read this as 1 Oz on the first glance? All of a sudden I wish I could read Russian. They announce this every week…. I don't understand these headlines. What do they mean by claims or reportedly? Either they did or they didn't. If that's published, they should find the evidence obviously duh Good work! Can we get the Epstein Island info instead? These guys are on a hacking bender. Who cares. Wish the old anons were still around. Are there any whitehats left? Either they’ve been milking this “accomplishment” or the media has. Either way, there’s a lot bigger issues they could pry into if they wanted to be helpful. Just waiting for them to release the GOP’s hacked info from 2016 Or Trump Like they're going to expose the people they work for..... Never, it not info they want out there. Anonymous is the Deep State. It's their way of fu¢king with their enemies. They have an agenda and use Anonymous"" as the messanger. i didn't read the article but, if it is 28gb of pure text, its a lot 5mb spreadsheets and 25mb ppts add up Or maybe they have been super kind to translate it, reformat double spaced and offer a SparkNotes rundown printer friendly version? I'm kidding we all know that technology went extinct long ago back along with Nokia cell phones, myspace, and AOL messenger. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Didn’t they release a bunch of data a few days ago, was there anything interesting found? I see they said this one has bank audits, that doesn’t sound earth shattering to me, mostly bank compliance and regulatory reviews, kind of hoping to hear something more interesting coming out of all of this. I am pretty sure it’s on Twitter, at least that’s where it was last time this was posted. It’s here: http://anonymousleaks.xyz/ Download with your favorite BitTorrent client. Maybe, let’s find out on the next episode of… Political Shenanigans! Also the which of the Tory party in the UK are getting their hands greased That would be nice. More evidence no one does anything about. We can add Hunter to this as well. Probably a dozen more just like them You mean Biden Rent-free, man. And honestly, when do we stop blaming Trump for everything? And, lastly, what strategist says ""wait for our puppet to leave the command of our biggest rival, THEN start your attacks""? If the news releases the information Trump will be on it. If we never find out the information you know the Biden family is on it. FACT!!! That’s what you hope to learn from all that data?? Madcow still Pied Pipering the mush-minded that Billarys obvious defeat is the most important thing in the world right now? Idiot… You mean the Biden Crime Family right? Or the Clintons who spied on Trump’s campaign and while he was the President? I’m no Trump apologist but I’d rather have an outsider than someone who has been involved in politics all of their lives. nah, in that context you'll just see who's sending money to shell companies ⛳️ Obama literally signed the whistleblower enhancement protection act into law. [https://www.whistleblowers.org/news/obama-signs-whistleblower-protection-bill-into-law/](https://www.whistleblowers.org/news/obama-signs-whistleblower-protection-bill-into-law/) [https://www.whistleblowers.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/8.-obama-statements.pdf](https://www.whistleblowers.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/8.-obama-statements.pdf) I want to believe this has some merit. Got a source? *Who cares. Wish the old* *Anons were still around. Are their* *Any whitehats left?* \- Reply-Consistent --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: ""haikusbot opt out"" | Delete my comment: ""haikusbot delete"") lol. What complex is it where you see everything there is to see, but still think there’s more? Unhinged? You already have hunters laptop and proof daddy is corrupt but of course you still have a hard on for trump. See how the NY army general dropped their case against trump? They had nothing on him, chuck schumers brother worked at the law firm trying to sue trump and they couldn’t touch him meanwhile you have a presidents son with photos and video of him doing crack and you turn a blind eye. Useful idiot you are, enjoy your college loan forgiveness and insulin prices lol. OTOH, if it's cat pictures... How many text pages can 1GB memory stick hold? Text ASCII File 1 GB = 1,024 MB = 1048,576 KB = 107,3741,824 bytes An ASCII character in 8-bit ASCII encoding is 1 byte; so, we get 107,3741,824 characters. Assume an average of 5 characters per word, plus a space (6 characters) = 178,956,970 words. At 200 words per page, that's 894,784 pages. There are roughly 900,000 ACSII text pages per 1GB of memory. ----------- 900,000 text pages /gb x 28 gb = 25,200,000 text pages ----------- ----------- Source: https://www.promokeychain.com/how-many-text-pages-can-1gb-memory-stick-hold-a-9.html#:~:text=Text%20ASCII%20File&text=An%20ASCII%20character%20in%208,pages%20per%201GB%20of%20memory. Worked in data analytics/architecture for a mid/large bank. 28 gigs is not a lot. Understand that you need a copy of basically all customer data daily/monthly etc depending on the situation. Terabyte isn't a lot of data F that and at your own risk! Panama Papers, Pandora Papers, yeah nothing is gonna happen. Yea man, the guy who actually is pushing for consequences on Russia is the one being paid. You’re so fucking smart! /s As far as I know, Biden was never pissed on by a hooker in a Moscow motel as a guest of Vlad Putin. [deleted] Ratio You really need to make better choices about the sources of your information. Obama's war on whistleblowers https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/obamas-crackdown-whistleblowers/ https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/06/obamas-whistleblowers-stuxnet-leaks-drones/ Obama and Whistleblowers: Leak for Me but Not for Thee https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/05/obama-whistleblowers-war-dodd-frank/351137/ I say this because I was following Anonymous at the time all the leaks happened during GWB being in office. When Obama began legislating against whistleblowers, his helping the NSA et al I saw less and less of Anonymous. They did have a presence during GWB and after but then disappeared. If you know they have been active and have been able to follow their work then please share. That orange grifter has more dirty laundry than probably anyone on else the planet. It’s only a matter of time until it gets aired out If I ran for office and someone dragged photos of my son at his worst point in life out into the public to smear me I would be outraged that someone stopped so low as to demean my son, who had problems and had nothing to do with my political actions, to suit their own warped agenda. Edit: you mention corruption, well, here are some noteworthy examples of how the person you're defending handles things: Corrupt.af Meowscow is going to be livid! *Bellingcat has entered the chat room...* What is this in Giraffes? Please translate to iPhones photos from a iPhone 3 versus 13. As well as jpeg and gif. Thanks Shameful. But $ controls the courts. What favors did the Trump administration bestow upon Russia… I recall increased sanctions. The steady drum beat of Trump <3 Russia didn’t quite manifest itself into reality Meanwhile—Hunter Biden gets a seven-figure sum from the wife of the Mayor of Moscow… >He gave Russia everything they wanted Could you provide an example… That is honestly the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard. If you KNOW that there's no cop on the freeway because you've paid him off, you fucking slam the gas pedal into the floor. If now that cop is replaced, you know you've got to play it safe. To do the opposite is to squander an opportunity on one hand, and then risk getting smacked on the other. Russia isn't ""desperate"" for shit. You’re still calling that this information after it was already confirmed by a liberal media outlet? I believe governments and politicians can be very evil from both sides of the aisle. Ignoring facts is a new phenomenon. Yep, Mr Red Had Klan Wizard is going to get got forsur. Just a matter of time You mean after a 3 year anal exam from the Mueller investigation, which failed, there's dirty laundry still to find. I'm sure he is no saint, no billionaire is, but how can you make that claim? How about we get to see everything the Clintons and Bidens and Obama have ever done and every single payment they got and what exactly the did for them. All of them went from not terribly rich to insanely rich and they could not have done that on politician salaries. It’s reflective of your parenting. I don’t know what your sons problem was and I hope it’s not congenital or health wise but I’d rather not vote for someone who’s son is a literal crack head because like I don’t want that guy doing that to my district. Can run your fam can’t run a city. Forget the crack use, Bobolinski spilled on Senile Joe. He gets a % of all of Hunters money. How do you think a crack addict gets hired onto boards. You are a blind squirrel if you don't know the contents is that laptop and what it means. Senile Joe put his crack addicted son as his patsy. What a POS he is. Take my angry ass upvote you heathen. or r/standardissuecat First google result for gigabyte giraffe: https://youtu.be/dC5USs2nK8s [1-37](https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/17/politics/trump-soft-on-russia/index.html) [a lot more](https://newrepublic.com/article/165553/donald-trump-everything-vladimir-putin-wished-russian-asset) [more more more](https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2018/09/25/on-the-record-the-u-s-administrations-actions-on-russia/) [and your non-president, non-leader q-anon bullshit](https://www.cnn.com/factsfirst/politics/factcheck_e879bcfe-4b2a-4b4a-a823-8c6d512c4e5e) Trump was Putin’s lapdog his whole term. Trump did everything he asked. Even said he believed Putin over our own intelligence! Trump withheld arms from Ukraine. He was impeached over it. Have you been living under a rock? [deleted] That’s the dumbest thing I’ve read today. Cheers. > confirmed That’s your problem right there. Most of the sources you get your information from don’t bother to confirm their stories. They just copypasta the latest propaganda and talking points, which very often have zero truth to them. It didn’t fail. The only reason they didn’t charge him with anything was because he was president. Dudes a traitor and grifter full stop. They write books and get paid tons of money to do appearances and do speeches. Basically every ex-president does it. It’s not hard to find out how they make money Oh like the Trump family is an example of exemplar behavior. They got in office simply because they had the same last name, not because of any inherent political talents. That's a permanent condition, not a temporary addiction to a substance, to which any person could become afflicted with. Lots of people with substance abuse issues get hired in various places. I was a substance abuse counselor and it happens way more often than you'd think, no matter what political leaning they have. [deleted] I love when I’m introduced to a new cat subreddit. Multiple investigations by Trump’s DoJ show no link between Hunter Biden and corruption Multiple investigations by Trump’s own DoJ shows what the investigator believes to be verifiable and unequivocal evidence that Trump and more specifically his family and administration had direct ties to the Kremlin and Putin Trumpets : BUT WHAT ABOUT HUNTER BIDEN HUH?!?! Trump was reluctant to sign Russian sanctions Trump didn’t call Putin a “killer” Trump shared intel on ISIS (how is that a bad thing) I see a lot of high school bullshit. Subjective takes and baseless, conspiratorial claims. He was seem talking to Putin by the lockers—we, like don’t even talllllk to him anymore 💅 That’s nonsense. We shouldn’t be arming other countries to begin with. They are not entitled to have us play sugar daddy—nor are we in any way obligated to act as such. They are not even a NATO member. Why are we helping them? How is that in our interest? Or do you legit think that we just care about freedom® 😒 Maddow is the new Glen Beck with that whiteboard 😳 You’re making a huge assumption by saying that. As someone who worked in government in the past, I analyze a lot of information. What sources would you recommend that you think I’m missing? > Most of the sources you get your information from don’t bother to confirm their stories. They just copypasta the latest propaganda and talking points, which very often have zero truth to them You guys are still on the ""trump is a russian asset"" nearly half a decade old disproved lies. You do know the entire investigation was manufactured, with the help of FBI and CIA? DNC and Hillary paid fines by the FEC, Federal Election Commission, because they paid for the Steele Dossier but claimed it was lawyer fees. Proven fact that Durham is now getting to the bottom of. Trump will have his day in court and Hillary will be paying damages to Trump. Your projecting her crimes on to him. Rules for Radicals had this in the playbook. Caught red handed. If you have specific instances of crimes by Trump I'd love to hear it. The problem is NOT what they made when they got out of office. It is how in the hell did they have little to nothing going in to office and an absolute ton of money at the point they left political office. The question is how in the ever loving hell did they make so much while in office that is way the hell above their salary while in office. Remember the Obamas were basically community organizers before they went in and Obama didn't finish his Senate term but when he came out of office of being President suddenly he had a ton of money. Biden has been in politics almost his entire life it was only after he lost his VP job that he wasn't officially in politics, but at that point he was worth a lot and his net worth has increased as has his family and relatives. I mean look at all the money his brothers have picked up in contracts because of Biden. Biden has been enriching himself and his family, just like the Clintons. The Clinton foundation made an absolute ton of money until the Clintons were no longer in politics and now is it basically out of business. If you look at their records they spent no money on anything other than a few lectures and conferences which would not account for all the money the foundation got. The Clinton Foundation was their own personal piggy bank. Foundation funds were even used for their daughters wedding. Also don't even try and compare any of them to Trump. Trump had a ton of money before he went in to office. Trump gave away his entire salary while in office as well. Trump is the only one who gave away everything he was paid while in office. Also if you look at the financials for Trump he wasn't earning profits during his Presidency at the levels he was before he was President, so technically Trump lost money while being President. Only 1 made it into office and the kids were on tv everyday defending their dad, regardless of the politics they stood up for dad while Biden is in office for decades and his kid and brother are performing back room deals. How’s that college loan forgiveness working out? Insulin prices? Free community college? “Fund the police!” (Biden 2022) realize your a useful idiot yet if you voted for him? Oh and I’m looking forward to urinals in womens rooms soon, this is the insanity that will cost you guys the mid terms, bon appetite. Apparently you haven’t been paying attention. > The Biden Crime Family Ones that don’t use that term to describe the First Family. You’re reciting every bullshit Republican talking point like a good lemming. Good luck with the DuRhAm RePoRt. Mueller specifically said if they didn’t think Trump committed a crime they would have said so. He showed several instances of him obstructing justice. Roger Stone was communicating with Guccifer 2.0 aka the Russians and was relaying information to the them and vice versa. How many of Trumps guys went to prison for lying about what was going on during the campaign? You’re getting played You’re a brainwashed moron. [How Barack Obama Has Made $20 Million Since Arriving In Washington](https://www.forbes.com/sites/danalexander/2017/01/20/how-barack-obama-has-made-20-million-since-arriving-in-washington/?sh=75e45b6e5bf0) Nobody likes the Clintons and it’s funny you’re still stuck on someone who is irrelevant now. Biden has shown his financials but you obviously don’t know about that. He also actually pays his taxes unlike the orange traitor. Trump gave away his salary? Sure he did. He also ripped off the secret service and made millions by using his properties for government business. There’s a reason he fights so hard to keep his tax records private. And his “charity” was shut down and he’s not allowed to run one anymore. Just like his Trump U fraud he was ripping people off and basically embezzling funds. You have to be dumb as fuck to believe anything he says. Kushner might as well have had Trump's last name with the incestuous dealings that family espoused during the campaign trail. Meanwhile Kushner bankrolled off the backs of his tenants to which I personally had to deal with as a social worker. Talk about back room deals, how about Trump jr. trying to meet with foreign nationals to get dirt on American citizens? Yeah, Trump's kids are spotless /s. You didn’t provide any sources. I’m citing the NYT article confirming what we’ve known as truth about the Biden laptop, which was labeled as “misinformation” before an election by big tech censorship, as well as the media burying the story. Your not thinking clearly. No reciting talking points and not a lemming. You believed a lie for 3 years regarding Russia collusion. Leaks, more like lies, regarding Mueller fake investigation. Durham is moving in silence like a real investigation and will prosecute more than Mueller and higher profile coming soon. Sussman will sing like a bird and implicate the guilty higher on the chain. You got played and continue to do so. The walls are closing in and soon even you will realize you were and are on the wrong side of this. Actually Joe Biden did NOT properly pay his taxes. It seems you are not well read. There was a huge uproar about how he did his taxes for a book he wrote. He took a deduction that is not allowed and was specifically closed because many authors had done the same thing and it isn't allowed. So it would seem you are ignoring known problems. We also know that Joe Biden is hiding much of his income through family members because Hunter Biden is on Joe Biden's accounts and Joe is on Hunter's bank accounts with full access. We know that Hunter complained that he had to give half his money to Joe/Pop as well. We also know that Hunter has paid many of the personal bills for Joe Biden and secretly raised money for his father's expenses. There are emails about Hunter being asked to raise money secretly and not let anyone know. This is all stuff that happened while Joe Biden was VP and there is no way that Obama didn't know about it because they keep refusing to answer questions about all of this saying ask the VP's office. Obama's White House also refused to answer any questions about Joe Biden holding back money from Ukraine unless they fired a prosecutor that was investigating his son, which Joe Biden did NOT have the authority to withhold because Congress already voted to give the money to Ukraine and there were no limits on the money like fire this prosecutor until Ukraine got the money. Joe Biden admitted publicly he extorted Ukraine to get what he wanted and laughed about it. He said I told them they have 6 hours to fire the guy before I left or they wouldn't get the money. Joe Biden did NOT have the authority to do that. All of this is very well known with emails and videos to back it up if you even bother to look. It's funny you excuse the corruption of the Clintons just because they aren't in politics. Funny how you are still pissed about Trump when he isn't even in politics or office anymore. You do the same thing with Trump that you claim I'm doing with the Clintons. If you say get over the Clintons, then you should absolutely get over Trump. That’s politics, I guess your social worker degree didn’t prepare you for that? Oh they are so innocent. How about that Durham probe? All these back room deals if they were so bad why aren’t they up there with the fake Steele dossier which was all over the news for years? Sounds like it’s a nothing burger. Since your in social work have you responded to any police calls? I mean can’t msw or lcsws handle the same problems police can? I’m sure glad you guys voted a weak republicans in disguise mayor in NYC, finally someone who will support the police. I hope not though, you schmucks voted blue and the carnage $0 bail and 24 hr jail hold that comes with it. Racists Asian attacks, random people beaten up on the streets, gun crime but no guns squads and random pt downs because it’s rrrrrracist. I don’t think much will change with crime in NYC until every New Yorker gets a bottle smashed over their head or a 3d rail experience to vote for the logical idea of locking up criminals and enforcing the law. But socials workers will say hurrr durrr it’s because of poverty. Meanwhile welfare and progressive ideas distill into the shithole that all blue cities become with NYC being the shining example. Lol So that makes the whole Biden family a criminal enterprise? And you don’t have any comment all about the hundreds of millions of dollars that the Trump Family appears to have grifted while in office? How about the Pullitzer-winning NYT expose about Trump’s decades of real estate fraud? Your opinions are **biased** because you consume media in an **echo chamber**. I hope the Government fired you from your analyst job for being terrible about validating sources. Lol the coping in this response is pathetic. Keep burying your head in the sand Dude you are deranged. Trump is still campaigning and is the de-facto leader of the Republicans. The majority of them still think he won the election which is insane. Clinton has basically no influence in politics right now so they’re not really comparable. And Biden has shown his tax payments and has pays hundreds of thousands in taxes every year. You can actually look it up unlike the cheating spray tanner. What you just said amounts to jibberish. You have no fucking clue what the real world is like and what these ass clowns have done to a huge segment of the population. You and the Trump cultists can go ahead and keep living in your fantasy world. We can talk about Trump for sure. Corruption is corruption. Through all sources, which have now been confirmed, it is readily apparent that Hunter was siphoning money to his father when Biden was the VP. Further implications show that Mitt Romney’s adult kid and Joy Kerry’s adult Child are over there or have been while doing the same things. Interestingly enough, the NY prosecutor halted the investigation into Trump indefinitely. Trump and his family aren’t saints either but it doesn’t appear he or his family will be touched in NY for the time being. Time will tell. Look into the legal matters for Sussman. Durham is making headway. Keep laughing, tears if joy coming. Dude you are deranged. No one is consulting Trump about anything. There are people in politics who aren't even taking his calls these days. You mean the democratic policies promoting crime and racism in NYC? How would you like criminals released after a day on$0 bail? The prosecutor halted the investigation indefinitely? Interesting, because they the Trump Organization was just told to comply with the NY Attorney General subpoena by a judge this morning. They have till the end of April to comply. Lol, if Hunter was siphoning money to anyone, it was his crack dealer. Trump raped little girls with his buddy Epstein so idgaf about Hunter using his daddy’s name to scheme money for drugs and prostitutes. None of it is worse than anything any of the Trump crime family have done and continue to do. Also, trump rapes children. Maybe after the 150th Qanon prediction doesn’t come true you’ll finally wake up. But I doubt it Sure bro. Trump is basically the cult leader for conservatives. He’s still selling out his group therapy sessions. I'll put it to you this way. I'd rather have another Bush in the rose garden than another Cheeto print on the White House wall. Correct. The slam dunk criminal case the prosecutors in NY were driving for was stopped. I’m sure Trump has many other lawsuits he’s dealing with for or against him and his organization. Nope. Hunter’s dealings are much worse than that. I wish anonymous would focus on all governments and truly hold them to task. Where is the proof about Trump going to Epstein’s island and raped kids as you say? Just like after 3 years and many Durham convictions you will wake up. You mean like Biden isn't a Alzeheimer patient and isn't corrupt as hell? chuckles yea and I'm the ruler of the world as well. (face palm). Some people believe anything and can't think for themselves. I'm also not your bro. That's something a child would say or someone who isn't actually working for a living and living on their own. Tells me everything I need to know about yourself. It doesn’t matter what you think, your people and their boys joining girls sports / woke ideologies will get slaughtered in the mid terms. Only a vocal minority that reeeees on Reddit and on tv is what gets the attention. It thankfully all the new migrants think this is insane and will vote accordingly lol. Lol you mean one probation sentence? What a brilliant prosecutor It’s an expression you dipshit. God you people are fucking morons I've been hearing that since 2019 Wonder what Klien Smith said to get probation? Wheels of justice grind slow, keep laughing. And you’ve been loosing seats ever since! Like I said before. I’d think you morons would realize you’re getting played after having none of your prophecies come true but that would require accepting being wrong, something your small brains aren’t capable of doing. By the way did you know one of the biggest Qanon posters was a Citibank employee? Not some government official. You’re all gullible as hell Still not as many as the GOP lost Nothing to do with Q or prophecy. Do you follow what Durham is doing? You are probably not even hearing that on the news, they like to omit and hide such things from the sheep. Do you follow what Hillary is fighting? Do you see what's going on with Hunter's tax issues and his laptop? I don't need Q to tell me trouble is on its way. Again, you bought into 3 years of lies set up by Hillary and the DNC and I got played? If I have a small brain, your's is the size of a pea. There was Russian Collusion, Hillary and the DNC colluded with Steele and some Russians to fabricate this whole thing. Sussman and others peddled it to the press and FBI/CIA. FISA abuses took place. Will they all get nailed, maybe maybe not. But Durham will get more convictions and some high valued targets before all is said and done. Much more than Muellers hit job on Trump and the people he indicted. Here is the latest from Durham. Notice how he is going up the chain? Obviously Sussman didn't lie just out of loyalty, he was paid to lie, can't wait to hear him sing. Very stealthy in that there are no leaks, just action in court. https://www.theepochtimes.com/john-durham-issues-trial-subpoenas-to-members-of-clinton-campaign-dnc_4424881.html According to balletopedia: “Democrats maintained a majority in the U.S. House as a result of the 2020 elections, winning 222 seats to Republicans' 213. Democrats flipped three seats and Republicans flipped fifteen, including one held by a Libertarian in 2020.” Where are you getting your koolaid from, CNN??? Sure he will. You obviously haven’t actually looked at what Mueller found and just let bullshitters tell you what you want to hear. Lmao the epoch times. God you people are morons It was enough. Who cares. At least it wasn't from QANON. Mueller found nothing and knew from the very beginning that no Russian collision existed. You probably hung on Rachel Meadows every word. Adam Shits every smoking gun. What a tool you are. Shooting the messanger doesn't stop the facts. Let's hear some of your sources, I could use a laugh. CNN, MSNBC, CBS, NBC, ABC or Late night talk show hosts? Or do you pay to be mislead? There ya go, throw stupid ideas back believed by an extremely small minority of QANON believers, because you can't debate someone with actual knowledge. Run and hide, it's OK. You really di try hard! Be proud! I'm very proud of you believe me. Even the Republicans in the Senate have confirmed that the Mueller report showed Russia favored and helped Trump. You’re too ignorant and brainwashed to accept the truth I love how you crazies all recite the same news channels in order whenever your delusions get challenged. Anyone who watches television and thinks they know what’s going on is a fool, as is anyone who reads obvious propaganda like Epoch Times and most right wing “journalism” Please tell me the Republicans that said that. I could guess, Liz Cheney, Mitt Romney and other Rino's. Trump was an outsider, neither established party liked him. It's why this illegality was allowed to play out as it did. You haven't challenged anything. I picked the most misleading sources because it is clear you are mislead. Still haven't need your sources, why is that? Wrong again dumb-dumb [Republican-led Senate panel: Russia interfered in 2016 election to aid Trump, campaign associates had regular contact with Russians](https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-nw-russian-election-interference-senate-report-20200818-apprn474wnbulfhw2gi545fo2a-story.html) I read actual news like Reuters and Yahoo and plenty of others. And I don’t watch dumbass YouTubers and think Facebook memes are news. You picked the most misleading sources because it’s clear that I AM mislead? What the fuck are you even saying here? Christ you people at nuttier than squirrel turds Oh the Russian hacked emails. You mean the Seth Rich thumb drive removal of emails. https://technofog.substack.com/p/durhams-latest-he-has-hundreds-of?s=r Reuters is actual news. The fu¢k it is. News is controlled by 6 corporations, it's all coordinated to control people. You are being controlled by their narrative. Did they tell you about Hunter's laptop 18 months ago when the story broke? Did they show you the pictures of him smoking crack and engaging in lewd acts? Did they release the emails showing Senile Joe's connection to the business dealings? Bobolinski? My guess is they omitted those stories and your left clueless as to the veracity of those stories. Including what Durham is up to. You poor ignorant fellow. You know Rich’s family doesn’t even believe your conspiracy theories and sued Fox for propagating it right? You just can’t get enough of that sweet propaganda can you. Technofog: Conservative investigative reporting aka “We make stuff up like James Okeefe” Lol. You all say the exact same nonsense and have to audacity to call other people sheep. Zero. Self. Awareness. I don't care what they think. The time it took to download tells everything. So they made up Durham's response in a court pleading? You think I'm being propagandized? You're in deep More aware than you. You display the exact same ignorance as other sheep, you are part of the herd, you just not aware enough to notice. Sure dude. You’ve got more insider knowledge of what happened than the family of the guy who was killed. Delusional I’m sure it’ll amount to nothing as these sorts of things always do when conservative whackjobs think they’ve got something. “Butter e-mails” all over again lol Lmao again with the sheep talk from the biggest lamb on earth. You need psychological help Not what I said. They lost their son, that's all they really care about. Getting caught up in the back and forth is not and should not be their main concern. Keep laughing. https://www.theepochtimes.com/white-house-visitor-logs-reveal-meetings-between-hunter-biden-business-partner-and-joe-biden_4428262.html Oh look, the ""Big Guy"", Senile Joe, had meetings in the White House with Hunter Biden business partners. Why would that happen? Senile Joe didn't know anything about Hunter's business dealings. Walls are closing in, things are surfacing and soon you will not even be able to read the Chicago Tribune because they will have no choice but to reports on the obvious, corruption at the highest levels by CCP officials. Your head will explode like in the movies Scanners. https://youtu.be/TpEiE3-CYGA They specifically sued Fox for spreading the conspiracy theory that you still believe in. You people are deranged You know that stuff was made up by Giuliani and whoever else got their hands on it right? How many Q predictions are you going to keep falling for? Julian Assange all but came out and said it. Don't care what Fox did to get sued. Did they sue him. Reminder, I don't watch Fox news. Deep fakes? Fake video of Hunter and his escapades? Rudy owes Trump nothing. Why would he sully his own reputation as a prosecutor and mayor who turned NY around and got it through 9/11? Stockholm syndrome. You are in it deep. https://jonathanturley.org/2022/04/27/garland-stonewalls-questions-about-a-special-counsel-in-hunter-biden-scandal-despite-new-evidence-tied-to-president-biden/ Since the rags you read don't mention anything. Julian Assange is also a Russian agent and isn’t an ally of west. If you actually read REAL news instead of your fairy tales you’d know this Rudy has flushed his reputation down the toilet for your orange cult leader and it’s pretty sad to see. Dudes a straight whackjob now just like you are You’ve been stewing over this for an entire day and you still post nonsense that recycles stories from the NY Post. You know what’s funny is you’re so concerned about someone who isn’t even in politics. You’re a pawn and you don’t even realize it You wouldn't know shit from shinola let alone if Assange is a Russian asset or just someone with dirt on people in high places. The way he is getting railroaded by the West is telling. Whackjob, nice coming from a sheep. Again, why for Trump? There has to be a reason. Just you saying it doesn't make it true without you coming up with some valid reason. No stewing, just can't believe how clueless Democrats in general are. The echo chamber of Twitter and MSM have made you all idiots and low information. It's how we find ourselves in the position we are on now with Senile Joe. Even right wing Washington Examiner admits he is you stupid fuck [Mueller report details suggest Julian Assange is a Russian agent](https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/mueller-report-details-suggest-julian-assange-is-a-russian-agent) Lmao *again* with the sheep talk. It must suck being so delusional and have no self awareness You don’t know shit about what’s going on in the world let alone America. I bet you think Biden controls gas prices and is the reason inflation is happening in every country on earth. But still no answer to the question of why Rudy would do that. Keep laughing sheep, keep laughing. Maybe you deflect because you are talking out of your ass. He doesn't control gas prices out right, but his poor and weak domestic and foreign policy has contributed to the increase in costs of many products, including gas Furthermore, the costs in the next year will be even worse. Fertilizer is key to feeding the world, and Russia is one of the worlds largest producers. Thank Senile Joe for your increased food bill after a crappy harvest across the globe next year. It could be worse, you might be African or impoverished in a third world nation and actually starve to death. Because he was his lawyer and is a die hard supporter. You’re goddamn clueless LOL none of that has anything to do with Biden. Prices are up primarily because of the global supply chain being impacted from Covid. Again, it’s a worldwide problem. You are the definition of brainwashed That's not reason enough for him to stain his career. If that's your rational your clueless. He was and is a man of integrity. Perfect, no, but not someone who would take such action lightly. Wrong. The war in Ukraine would not have happened under a competent president. Senile Joe is not competent. Everyone knows it, unless you have buried your head in the sand. He’s obviously brainwashed by Qanon horseshit like you are. He’s actually done it himself with his endless comical fuck-ups Blaming Biden for the actions of Putin is insane. The idea that this wouldn’t happen under Trump is laughable. If he was president right now he would be sending aid to the Russians I think you know more about Q than I do. Everyone is brainwashed but you. Must be all that hard hitting propaganda you read that inflates your ego so. Insane, no. Factual, no. Probable, yes. They feared Trump like they feared Reagan. He is unpredictable. There was a mutual respect. Senile Joe has no respect from foreign leaders. They know he is weak and feeble-minded. You defended it earlier and obviously think it’s real. Maybe one day you’ll realize you’ve been played but that would require admitting you’re wrong. Something you narcissists just can’t do. Trump is Putin’s bitch so the idea that he’s afraid of him is also laughable. It goes the other way actually. And I’ll never forget when the entire UN laughed at Trump when he tried to gaslight them. Nobody outside of conservative fantasyland finds Trump intimidating. It’s also weird that you think Hollywood Reagan and a Silver Spoon pussy from Manhattan are tough. You people are a parody Still believe the Russia hoax after being lied to for 3 years. Sad. They laughed but he was correct when he warned Germany of their reliance on Russian energy. You can keep laughing too only to find out in the end you got played. Low info and hate blind you. “We have a lot of money coming in from Russia” - Don Jr “Russia if you’re listening…” - Don Sr “Do you think Putin will be going to The Miss Universe Pageant in November in Moscow – if so, will he become my new best friend?” - Don Sr Let’s not forget Trump taking Putin’s side in Helsinki vs our own intelligence agencies. And how many of Trumps guys went to prison for lying about their contacts with the Russians during the campaign again? I already explained to you how Roger Stone was their primary intermediary with Guccifer 2.0 aka the Russian GRU. You’re absolutely brainwashed Your taking quotes from a time well before Trump's election and attaching meaning to it that could mean whatever you want it to mean and I'm brainwashed. Blinded by hate and drinking the Kool aid. You can see in the Durham filings how this was all fabricated and created an opportunity for a fishing expedition. Remember when Trump had a closed door meeting in the White House with two of Putin’s top guys and let the Russian journalists in but not Americans? Pepperidge farm remembers. Sure dude. You: “You’re a sheep!” Also you: “Baaaah! Baaaaah! Baaaaah! Where we go one we go all Where we go one we go all Where we go one we go all”" Wall Street opens higher as Democrats win Senate control,1670,https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-stocks/wall-street-at-record-highs-as-democrats-take-control-of-senate-idUSKBN29C1KT?il=0,"The longer i'm around, the more I feel the market could just go either way all the time, and articles like this will always find some fitting reason for it. If the Democrats didn't win and the market went up, people would just say 'market is up because R senate will stall Biden's corporate tax plans'... Wall Street opens higher as Bitcoin hits record. Wall Street opens higher two weeks after the premier of WW84 See, I can do it too. Kind of makes sense given how the Georgia outcome was essentially a referendum on the scale of future stimulus. [deleted] [deleted] One the dust settles, the real collapse can happen. ""Dems dumping money everywhere in the name of covid"" NOTICE THE TITLE SAYS AS. NOT BECAUSE. Wall Street does throw massive amounts of money to Democrats. Wait a month and get back to me lol ""The market will tank if they win all three houses"" - my ""friends"" I don't think some people realize that U.S markets have a history of doing better under democratic administrations. I know it's too early to tell for this administration but only time will tell if the trend carries on. [https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/03/are-republicans-or-democrats-better-for-the-stock-market.html](https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/03/are-republicans-or-democrats-better-for-the-stock-market.html) Big tech and corps rejoicing, the monopolies are safe The fact that the country is on fire, everyone is broke, businesses are shutting down, there was a damn coup, and the market is opening higher should say *something* about the stock market to retail investors. My company’s shares prices were up big today as we announced new rounds of layoffs and reductions in salary. The markets and investors are ruining society. I’m defeated. I own stock and I hate that fact. I need to remove my desire for material objects and find new peace. You could just as easily credit the show of strength by Congress to finish the count and formally elect Biden. It's rarely just one thing. What can one expect when the anti-solution party makes way for the solution party? My green energy ETFS made me about 5k yesterday Wall Street loves corruption. The bull market will go into overdrive as banks over leverage themselves (again), blow up, and get bailed out by their friends. I can’t wait for this to happen this time however because the average person has seen enough of it. They’ll bring the guillotine out Would you want it with Republican control right now? Yeah, because they know who the adults in the room are. Market is going high because people have more acces to invest than before. Also is what everyone is doing other than covid talk. Bingo. The market seems to be increasingly independent from anything tangible Working in finance I quickly learned that the most common attitude is 'when the market goes up, it's for the reasons I predicted, when it goes down it's because of something completely unforeseeable.' This is a strain of that. 90% of the articles written about intra-day market movements are fluff just trying to generate clicks on websites. My favourite example was when LTCM was going down the tube – dragging down the markets but unknown to the wider public – and financial news outlets were blaming the Lewinsky scandal for the fall. Reporting on day to day movements in the stock market generates a type of narration that typically falls somewhere between astrology and hackery. If those writing these stories actually knew, they could use the same knowledge to predict the future. I never read these headlines as an explanation. Just two disjointed statements next to each other. “Markets up” & “dems take senate” Isn't it the fact that markets don't like uncertainty. An outcome either way gives investors a bit more confidence to base a decision. The only difference is which individual stocks to buy up either way the market will go up on average. Both parties are pro market so there really no major difference between them. Exactly. This is what Tom Sosnoff preaches. Most financial news is bs that doesn’t mean anything, and does not give you insights into trading because it is backwards looking I.e. creating a story to justify a previous stock move Neil Cavuto was on Fox news trying to tie the DOW futures, which were down, for the next day to the election results were swinging towards the Dems. Its not so much 'if x happens good, y bad', think more , 'its going up regardless of x or y'. 'When x or y option is posible then uncertain. uncertainty creates fear'. 'Once x or y is locked in, certainty increases and fear decreases, so things will be good.' Its not accepted that we are going higher because of the monetary and fiscal stimulus? Mainly the Fed and interest rates at zero. That’s because the market is only subject to certain movements made by the Fed and implications from Treasury. monetary and fiscal policy control the market movements. However, it’s good to view what part of the market is moving up due to these changes. It appears that the stimulus and the COVID checks will stimulate economy which drives up inflation which will skyrocket equities: this is why the market is not a good representation of the economy although it is a projection of future prospects. The strangest part of all this is the change made in measuring inflation, and how that will effect the long term figures. what u buying for energy stocks? Lots of stimulus and money incoming! Green stocks a’boomin’! Low interest rates. Vaccines. Stimulus checks. More stimulus promised and a boring president is about to take over. Markets love reliability Its not really a dem vs republican situation here. Their loss is our gain The market did tank but it wasn’t noticed since civil war and mad max style apocalypse was priced in. Oh, well guess I can buy for cheap then! But my chosen news source says all other news is fake news and that Trump is the reason for all things good in the world. Only ones to ever break up monopolies has been democrats, try again. The vast majority of broke people weren’t buying stocks anyways. The pandemic benefited the WFH people financially, so a lot of those stimulus checks went straight to the market. The Fed is basically backstopping all institutional debt above junk bonds. [deleted] Sorry but retail investors barely impact the market. Maybe look up what you’re talking about before giving yourself the guilt trip. Incoming stimulus, low interest rates, increased money supply, $2trillion of bank deposits sitting on the sidelines, softening US dollar, good chance that there will be no tax changes until 2022 to 2023, (I don't think the dems would raise taxes in the middle of a pandemic while our unemployment is unnaturally high) All pretty tangible. Good chance we are seeing the beginning of another bull run after the quickest recession in history of the market. Fear and greed drive the markets my friends. Fear and greed. I disagree. I think that when you look at these things on a graph you can usually see, especially in hindsight, specific impacts things have made. Also, in the case of the Biden stuff, the stock market is pretty happy because he wants to reduce the tariffs put up, which were a drag on the economy. And there’s the promise of more infrastructure investment and better Covid stimulus, both of which would boost the stock market. And the democrats gaining control of the senate enables him to do all of that easier. Also, the stock market favours stability, and that was another thing that they weren’t getting under Trump. Yeah it was going up but there was still a huge amount of uncertainty that was making investors hold off. It's not independent from QE, that's for damn sure... Or when you find out, it's QE and stock buybacks pushing prices higher. Strong economy fairy tale over. It may be because I'm an independent but I see the market going up regardless of whoever is president. I hate Trump, but I understand the stock market will still preform. Even with Biden in control I won't attribute the rise in the market to democrats taking over. People need to take an unbiased view towards their investing decisions or the stock market will punish them for it. often not even written by a human! [deleted] TAN and LIT have been long holds for me. Just my opinion, but unemployment is still high, we are about to open the borders to cheaper labor over 6 months and inflation is coming. The market shouldn't be this high. one of them is a ""financial adviser"" too (I don't have my money with him) seemed like it was up in the morning, then stagnant during the coup attempt It objectively didn’t. And here I thought it was Kim Jong Il that is the reason for all things good in the world. You know it must be true because they don't allow any other news sources. Kim must be better, because that's a step above convincing people other news sources are a lie. Trump wishes he had Glorious Leader's powers. Interesting because Rockefellers got richer after their company was broken up since they still owned a stake in each of the company and now that they were small and distributed they all grew even bigger. Plus democrats won't be fiscally restrained. They won't mind printing more money if needed. Under cantillon effect the rich will grow Richer plus more taxes and regulations will only hinder small businesses. Allowing bigger corporations to have more share of market. One of the Reasons, Amazon was quite Okay with increase in minimum wages since it would cripple the competition. I’m suggesting that the stock market has become openly decoupled from market conditions. The circumstances of our consumer-driven economy haven’t been this bad since 1929, and the market is peaking. Tell me, maestro. How? A lot of construction is being scaled back, which also effects suppliers and engineering firms. We scaled from 12 jobs to just 3. (Work in power plants) I mean I’d argue it wasn’t actually a true recession though. Only a feeling but it seems like we still have massive amounts of unrealized losses that will only truly come to fruition once everything properly opens up again If they wait that long they may not control the house/senate anymore. My guess would be some kind of wealth tax as opposed to an increase in income tax for the middle class. All they have been talking about is how billionaire have gotten richer during the pandemic while average Joe’s are struggling. I feel everything points to a wealth tax or increases capital gains taxes or corporate Federal taxes? No hike for a few years. State taxes? You will most definitely see a hike in Dem states, specifically the ones with large cities that figuratively bled out paying unemployment. The states probably collected much less in sales and/or alcohol/amusement taxes, as well. In Chicago, for example, there was already a budget crisis ready to explode at the beginning of last (even with the projected legal weed tax revenue). Residents also fleeing expensive urban areas like Chicago. It’s not going to be pretty. It's literally just the fed buying corporate bonds. “Quickest recession” the economy was not doing well before COVID and arguably is not any better now. The “growth” was negligible this year and for the amount of money pumped into the economy if it doesn’t do anything this year we could be right back where we started by Q4 this year. or read by a human! i have icln. good enough? IMO automation is the real danger to cheap labor, and that trend has been accelerated due to the pandemic, a lot of these entry level jobs in retail and hospitality aren't coming back. I've seen a rapid increase in self checkout registers just in 2020 alone. Even if Trump was president and we had absolutely zero immigration of any kind whatsoever we still live in a global economy. Firms will always be able to outsource cheaper labor. I personally don't think we as a nation have been investing enough in higher education. China is rapidly shifting its workforce from manufacturing into Tech & AI. This shortage of qualified workers in a rapidly automated world is making the US uncompetitive in the long-run. I absolutely agree that unemployment is still too high. But if 2020 has taught us anything, its the old adage that _""the market =/= the economy""_ The Stock Market is heavily concentrated on the top corporations, where as the real economy is largely composed of small businesses. I think the very low interest environment has pushed many of the incredibly wealthy to invest more aggressively into the stock market due to a lack of other better investment vehicles. Inflation has been weird. So far its been pretty low all things considered despite the Federal Reserve trying to increase it. But of course that can always change. Because the actual recession is mostly supply side. The stock market is behaving that way because they don’t think the demand has gone away, and that’s further enhanced by stimulus packages which theoretically mean that people still have money to use, unlike in the last recession. So what they think is that there’s massive pent up demand that’s just waiting for restrictions to loosen before it’ll burst out. Fed go brrr [deleted] Okay? Your anecdote doesn’t have any impact on the market either. 🙄 Of course the circumstances of the recession were not normal. What sort of unrealized losses are you referring to? I can definitely see the tech sector slowing down. The problem with current investors is people just view TSLA and AMZN as the entire market. Somebody could say ""TESLA is overvalued"" and a lot of people just interpet that as the entire market is in a bubble. There will be growth, in my opinion. You just need to search for it. People who weight themselves in financials, clean energy, emerging markets, and large value will have a good year, (JUST MY OPINION). :) Dude are you fcking serious? Lets not be pretend this year wasn't brutal to millions of people that were shutdown. It was a true recession by the very definition of a recession. If you talk like that, you will upset the economy . The economy is a sentient being It was the first recession that had the largest stimulus package ever thrown at it. What would you expect to happen once the fed says 'we will continue to throw money at this until its fixed' Yeah, the feds are buying corporate bonds. It certainly is not “just” the fed buying corporate bonds though. [deleted] I guess these people live elsewhere. Everywhere I can see it is devastation and fear. Lifetime-bad circumstances and now a hostile “takeover” by MAGA. Dow 35,000. Well, those are all true points. Ah, I see the elevator doesn’t reach the top floor. No worries. Maybe commercial RE? If office demand stays depressed, there are some big writedowns coming. Yep I know I like how that guy was like “it wasnt a recession bc I didn’t feel like it was” It gives the market participants the implication that the fed will do anything to prop the market up, essentially eliminating the risk. Sure, retail, hope of recovery, etc are all driving factors, but they would not exist without the feds intervention. cool thanks man. Well the thing about the MAGA takeover thing is that it failed. And now Trump is trying to backtrack and is promising a peaceful transfer of power in an effort to salvage his shattered reputation. There’s also the fact that Biden is seen as being very good for the economy because he wants more Covid stimulus, wants to invest in infrastructure, and drop some of the tariffs, and he was just given the means to do it by gaining the senate. Internationally speaking of course, things are looking brighter because there’s now several vaccines being rolled out worldwide, so people can see an end in sight for the pandemic that they couldn’t before. There’s a lot of reasons the US stock market is rising at the moment. The other thing is that the stock market is about the wealth of companies, not necessarily GDP or individual wealth, and although they’re linked there’s not necessarily a direct correlation between them, and when there is there is sometimes a slight lag because ultimately the stock market is made up mostly of amateur investors who maybe won’t recognise something with the accuracy of a pro. That and long-term investors who aren’t interested in short term fluctuations. But back to the first point- the reason this is different is because most big businesses of the kind that have gone public have been put into “hibernation” rather than being shut down because they’ve gone bankrupt. The assets are still there, most of the employees too. All they’re waiting for restrictions to lift so they can go back to working at full capacity. Psychotic response to an obviously stupid way to look at the market Yeah I can definitely see the market slowing down for commercial real estate. We are already seeing the majority of big building sales/purchases in big cities being delayed by brokers and buyers. I don't think it will have a huge impact on the broader market though. I mean I get where he's coming from because we're trained in the last century or so to think that recessions come (only) from asset bubbles, but that's not actually what a recession is. Though I do consider it to be a ""temporary"" recession with the vaccine being rolled out (the ""V Shape"" recovery) that's just due to the fact that it's not from an asset bubble but rather non economic causes. Yep you are right Np. Make sure you do your own research and purchase at your own discretion. [deleted] https://www.equipmentworld.com/dodge-economist-deeply-scarred-construction-industry-long-road-2021/ Can’t help you are missing a brain :/ sorry mate. For the broader market, I think a lot depends on whether demand comes roaring back as soon as covid is not a major threat, or whether the uncertainty around jobs and wages leads people to tighten their belts. The stock market seems pretty solidly in the first camp. Damn now there's a comment you'd never see in WSB Thanks! And I think it makes sense when you think of how some people call investing “speculation”. It’s not necessarily about events in the present so much as how those events might impact the future, and whether people can see things going in a positive direction based on that. So all that stuff is kind of fuelling this positive sentiment even if the present is kind of lousy. That and despite everything, there are actually some businesses which have been doing tremendously out of all of this Covid stuff. Tech companies, supermarkets, pharmaceuticals etc. It’s very rarely a flat case of every business taking a dent during a recession, even a weird one like this. Also, not to be funny, but to some extent it can be a self-fulfilling prophecy where people see that others think things are going to get better, so they act in the same way, which causes other people to act in the same way. There is also the fact that of course many of these people will be long term investors for things like pension funds and the like. For those kinds of people, who plan to hold their shares for 30 years or so, recessions especially don’t matter, because typically things go upwards on that long of a timescale just as a matter of course. So they could buy any time and still do alright by the time they want to withdraw. oh no not one economist in one industry. The interesting part is that banks hold a ridiculous amount of cash right now in bank deposits. Which means people who usually spend money are not spending money. You can focus on unemployment and people struggling to get by but realistically that is a smaller portion of the population in the United States than you would be led to believe by the media, (not that it is not an issue). I think that when things start to open up, we are going to see a LOT of people start to spend money in the form of travel and retail. I like to dabble in options. I'm just not retarded :) Oh no! One moron on a app full of them! People banked their stimulus checks because they knew hard times were coming. I'd wait a few months. We haven't seen the supposed eviction/mortgage crisis unfold, and it may not, but it's a risk. > I think that when things start to open up, we are going to see a LOT of people start to spend money in the form of travel and retail. for whatever is left of the ever shrinking middle class. for more and more its just back to work and less spending as commodities go up up up 🤷‍♀️enjoy gaming, i'll enjoy making money. I'm much more inclined to believe that people banked their stimulus checks because they can't go out and spend it like they want to. I don't think the general public is near as disciplined as you think they are. Besides, the people who got those stimulus checks are ""low"" earners and contribute to national spending at a much lower rate than the people who were above the income requirements to receive them. When I'm referring to people saving more, I'm referring to high earners who didn't lose their jobs that are now just banking paychecks instead of paying for child support or leisure activities. The vast majority of people who received those checks that might be worried about experiencing hard times are most likely already experiencing hard times... so they would be forced to use the money. Bro people on welfare own iPhones. Will do right after I finish my 12. Cheers ok People spend money. People who lost their jobs are most likely not ""middle class"". They are more than likely low earners in the service industry. Those people didn't contribute to national spending hardly in the first place. if you say so! I mean it’s been proven. Low earners lost their jobs at a higher frequency than high earners during the pandemic. Like I said. if you think so, especially sense it has been proven! Alright man... glad we have so much manufacturing here with this massive middle class u speak of. it's been proven! lol just look at how wonderful detroit it where they make all the cars. such a wonderful middle class lol [deleted] I don't trust your sources :( So why are you even arguing with me if you aren’t open to new information? I’m sorry that somebody disagreeing with you hurts your fragile ego so much. I'm not arguing & I don't understand what you are going on about." Russia about to default,1656,https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-26/russia-is-hours-away-from-its-first-foreign-default-in-a-century,"Copy and past of the article for those that cant see it ​ Russia Is Hours Away From Its First Foreign Default in a Century Sanctions have blocked payments to holders of Russian debt Russia says it’s not a default because it has enough funds ByGiulia Morpurgo June 26, 2022, 2:00 AM CDT After months of teetering on the edge of default, Russia is now just hours away from a dramatic moment in the financial battle that the US and others have waged against the Kremlin over its invasion of Ukraine. A grace period on about $100 million of missed bond payments -- blocked because of wide-ranging sanctions -- ends on Sunday night. There won’t be an official declaration, and Russia is already disputing the designation, but if investors don’t have their money by the deadline, there will be an “event of default” on Monday morning, according to the bond documents. Out of Time Russia's grace period on missed bond payments in May is about to expire Source: Bloomberg News Includes euro and dollar payments. Figures rounded. It’s largely a symbolic development for now, given that Russia is already an economic, financial and political outcast across most of the world. But it showcases how the US, Europe and others have tightened the screws since the invasion started in February to make it all-but impossible for Russia to conduct what would otherwise be normal financial business. For Russia, it will mark its first foreign default since the Bolshevik repudiation of Czarist-era debts in 1918. The country tipped very near to such a moment earlier this year, but managed a last-ditch escape by switching payment methods. That alternative avenue was subsequently shut off in May -- just days before the $100 million was due -- when the US closed a sanctions loophole that had allowed American investors to receive sovereign bond payments. Now the question is what happens next, as markets are faced with the unique scenario of a defaulted borrower which has the willingness and resources to pay, but can’t. Major ratings agencies would usually be the ones to issue a default declaration, but sanctions bar them from Russian business. Bondholders could group together to make their own statement, but they may prefer to wait to monitor the war in Ukraine and the level of sanctions as they try to figure out the chance of getting their money back, or at least some of it. “A declaration of default is a symbolic event,” said Takahide Kiuchi, an economist at Nomura Research Institute in Tokyo. “The Russian government has already lost the opportunity to issue dollar-denominated debt. Already as of now, Russia can’t borrow from most foreign countries.” As the penalties on Russian authorities, banks and individuals have increasingly cut off payment routes, Russia has argued that its met its obligations to creditors by transferring the May payments to a local paying agent, even though investors don’t have the funds in their own accounts. Earlier this week, it made other transfers in rubles, despite the fact that the bonds in question don’t allow that payment option. Finance Minister Anton Siluanov has cited “force-majeure” as a justification for the currency switch, calling the situation a “farce.” The legal argument of force majeure hasn’t historically encompassed sanctions, according to lawyers who spoke to Bloomberg earlier this month. “There is every ground to suggest that in artificially barring the Russian Federation from servicing its foreign sovereign debt, the goal is to apply the label of ‘default’,” Siluanov said Thursday. “Anyone can declare whatever they like and can try to apply such a label. But anyone who understands the situation knows that this is in no way a default.” I’m confused. Didn’t they make 100B in oil sales this quarter alone? I honestly don’t think a Russian default will matter in any way shape or form. We in *Red* like Russia -Lil Wayne *(2007)* Ok. It will happen this time right? At this point I don't believe anything I read about this whole conflict. Russia never expected such great blowback, both militarily in Ukraine, and economically with the greater world. I do fear, however, overly harsh sanctions will accelerate the construction of a parallel world economy, with parallel institutions and de-globalization. In turn this can lead to greater poverty, conflict, and the like. A very unfortunate turn of events for the world and the Russian people this invasion was. *Laughs in BRICS* It's not going to matter, because the Russian elites can still live comfortably, and that's really all that matters in politics most of the time, anywhere on the planet. Sanctions rarely lead to regime collapse - even the Kim regime survives like a cockroach. Putinist Russia will endure for a time. This isn't to say that sanctions are useless. A lot of Russian propagandists and their useful idiots in the West claim this because of my #1 above - but imagine an alternative world where the West did NOT sanction Russia, but let Putin stomp all over Ukraine. What would have happened? (1) Without sanctions, Russia is richer and better supplied; with such additional resources they can oppress Ukraine more effectively. (2) The West, after years of running mouth on supporting Ukraine, does nothing after Feb 2022; Western credibility is down in the gutter, and nobody trusts the spineless West anymore. World order collapses. Sanctioning Russia was the right choice, no matter the hardship. Russian default means nothing in the context of applied sanctions. It only means that the foreign creditors lost their money. It doesn’t seem like anything to be happy of. It’s a terrible news for everybody but Russia Man this paywalls are such a shit pratice. You cant do shit today without paying for subscription. Thought Russia was raking in billions on that gas money? ""About"" for like the 3rd time this war... Excellent As the article says this is largely symbolic and doesnt hurt them. They have the money. This is just propaganda. Europe about to freeze Reddit should ban all Pay Wall News posts. What happens if Russia defaults? Does it get repossessed? Idk is it just me or does it seem like the sanctions are hurting everybody… but Russia. Are we sure this time?! (I hope so) [deleted] I mean if they are ready and willing to pay but outside sources are stopping them That isn't really a default ""Hey, I broke the deals, expanded nato and I provoked you til the war, then I sanctioned you, then it's not working, so I will artificially not accept your payments so you will be technically defaulted, HEHEHEHEHE."" The west is a spoiled kid, it's time to grow up west. Propaganda Looked into this, Russia has the willingness to pay, and the money to pay, however the USA is making it impossible by removing them from the banking system in order for the creditors to receive the funds. Weirdest ""default,"" I have ever heard of. Comes off more as propaganda by lies by omission. Guess most people else where will just go by the headline. Sure, let's hate on Putin, I am all for it, but this is just some weird shit being done by us, the West. If my bank refuses to transfer from my checking to make my mortgage payment, what do I care? I have the house, my checking balance is unchanged, they won’t repossess it cause nukes, and everybody knows I’m still good for the money. Some more american propaganda, they wont default, there currency is doing fine. The increased cost of oil and gas with no drop off in sales has them making more money than they did before. Nice one America, were so great! Delusions about the demise of the global financial system again. One can't default if you don't allow them to pay. You only rob those not being paid and kill the system's future. Large part of the world is not part of sanctions and certainly sees no will to stay in this scam. So much minusss!! They'll plunder Ukraine soon anyway Wouldn’t Russia forming their own G8 circumvent this problem? Sanctions has brought more wealth to Russia than they have had in years. Rubles at 5 year high and exports selling at record prices. Info source for Rubles and trade is the all in pod they know a bit about finance but I guess time will tell. https://youtu.be/Bh6-PXMdmPk [deleted] Great news for Russians :) China will bail them out. It has not got to the default or bond etc point. Crude oil is still flowing out. Still can get military parts, tanks from China, Belarus etc. Again? “Default all the way to hell” - the pope Pretty sure that means absolutely nothing considering nobody wanted to do business with them anyway. Tends to be how wars work. They’ve got their allies. If they win, the default won’t matter. All debt will be priced in a new currency. “Russia IS about to default” - Please use proper grammar, you grommets. This isn’t the finance ghetto. Thanks ;) Is this when the global financial markets collapse? Or do they not, because nothing matters anymore? The rules seem to always benefit the rich when they need it, and always punish us when convenient. And the Russian people reap what their lunatic leaders sowed. But what does it mean if a country defaults? Like... who's the bill collector? War? It will matter if Russia ever wants to participate in the broader economy again and develop high tech industries. China cant help them alone. Their currency is not the reserve currency of the world, and due to a proud history of epic currency manipulation, it likely never will be. Will they burst into flames and beg forgiveness? No, but they will have less and less economic vitality and influence over the coming decades. Paywall Good Some hotel in Vegas should take some of those wild looking buildings Who care!!! Everegrande default 320billion no one is talking about And then make up some bullshit reason why they didn’t/shouldn’t have to pay up. Ily thank you hero Thanks for letting all of us see this. ❤️ Thank you king They have the money. They just can’t pay due to sanctions. Indeed, but they also have to feed their people. Even with China and India, I don't see anyone buying enough from them in the long term to be worth the costs of supporting 144,000,000 people. Especially since China is fighting a real estate crash, and the entire world battles inflation and economic disruptions. Frankly, the war in Ukraine was poorly timed. It was 10 years too early for China to be ready for their expansionist desires. And on top of that, Putin is now stuck committed to the war, no matter what. The amount of face he'll lose if he has to withdraw from Ukraine, in addition to a NATO Finland and Sweden, would be too much for the Russian people to ignore. These are bonds that Russia issues to get funding. The sanctions are basically the world telling everyone that you had better not lend Russia money, and the sanctions prevent the collection of debt in order to enforce that message. Might explode Credit Suisse. Their CDS has been rising exponentially - something seems wrong with them. Agreed. I can imagine a other-than-dollar alternative economy, being constructed mainly by China and the countries with obligations to them (indebted economies). Although I don't really believe this will work in the long term. From what we know about their leadership, it feels like this would result in a system based on opression and tyranny for the average men. And that will never win. People shall be free. More CDSs will pay out. I think the market for Russian CDSs was like $600B as of late May? This is just from memory, so I'm not entirely sure. I mean… I doubt any foreign investors puts money into Russia whether bond or equity for a long long time. That’s not good. For us regular folks it’s back to the coal mines, but the HF’s would probably make a killing They e been almost defaulting now for three weeks Well, it matters in a huge way, but it was already expected for months now, so it doesn’t change much. True, it's a default because the West is holding their dollars hostage it will in the future If a countries economy is destroyed, or even just heavily damaged, it makes it hard or impossible to do things. They can’t form businesses, advance tech, buy tech, build stuff, built a strong military, etc. the wealth of a country is what allows it to influence and effect the world. Iran, North Korea, venezuela, and even just countries with small economies, do not how much relevance in the world. Would this make markets boom? E.g. hey looks like Russia can't invade squat Exactly. I remember reading how Russia was running out of artillery Ammo by the third day in. I’m currently in Ukraine and Poland and all the veterans are saying they shoot 30 rounds for each one Ukraine shoots back. Can’t trust the internet, who knew! I believe this is all a long term strategy by the U.S. to cripple Russia's ability to wage war in the future. In the short term, Russia will keep doing what they're doing, but the real goal of the U.S. is to ween Europe off of Russian oil. By doing so, we're significantly crippling the primary economic source of funding for Russia. Sure, they'll have China and India as consumers still, but they don't compare to Europe as a market. Another interesting fact is that U.S. oil consumption by China is up 1994%. Russia is still their primary source, but the market is saturated and Russia will have to offer oil up at a lower price to stay competitive. I stopped believing day two. Soooo much propaganda on both sides of the issue The conflict will end when Russia is done using up its surplus of 40yo military equipment and malnourished rural minorities. I don’t think there was ever any other option. Unless Russian falls from the inside, this was always the end game More unfortunate for the Ukrainian people. I hope a parallel world economy is created. The one we’re living in now is completely controlled by one country. That’s not healthy. As a species we can do better than extraction coupled with austerity, all policed by extreme militarism. Do you use an iPhone? You can click the link, then click the “Aa” at the top right and read anything. Do you know 12ft ladder website? Doesn’t work with all websites but still pretty cool. As not sure if I can post links here, google: Show me a 10ft paywall, I’ll show you a 12ft ladder. You can’t read a publication written by salaried professionals without paying for it? What a surprise. I’ll post the text next time too. Sorry homie. They kinda are, the default isn't because they don't have money, it's because US isn't letting them pay. The comment with the full article pasted reads that they could pay it if they weren't blocked by sanctions from doing so Coz The West dont want the payment It's Bloomberg though. And we're talking about a post to r/finance. They're the biggest name in financial news, if it should be allowed on any sub this is probably the sub for it. (Also fwiw you can keep getting the 10 free articles by opening their articles in incognito mode) No. Western creditors lose money and that's it. Yup, world bank will own Russia and it'll be up for sale on eBay, like Greece was a while ago! Tomorrow’s article: “Russia will default in as little as 30 days”. Thanks for net contributing nothing to this conversation. Sanctions man. Who knew! I mean Putin could just surrender and the Treasury would allow the money to come through. It’s within Russia capability to make it happen. Either way, who is going to invest in Russia now if Russia cannot repay? Blame who you want, but outsiders investing in Russia right now have a high risk of not being repaid. Monopoly money has no value. They'll reposess your summer home in the Ardennes? And no, people don't know that you're good for it. Your assets being siezed by various authorities doesn't mean your creditors just have to to go home. Tell me you don't understand bonds without telling me. Jesus fucking Christ. You’re in a finance sub and you are parroting that shit? It’s easy to make your money super strong when you control who can and can’t convert or trade with it… posted They have the money. The west just dont want to accept payments Murca > They have the money. and they want to pay. They just can’t pay due to sanctions. Imagine getting evicted from your home, not because you can't afford rent, but because your neighbors hate and mistrust you so much they won't even let you get to your mailbox to stick the rent check in. Maybe they should have thought of their people before launching a pointless war and then pretending they didn't. They don't care about feeding their people. Almost like they are about to default or something, due to being out leveraged up the ass by working with some shady people... hmmmmmmmm [removed] I doubt that. How so? Cry me a river There's a pretty easy solution to avoid that...pull the fuck out of Ukraine. 😉 I don’t think so Western media is full of propaganda regarding the Ukraine/Russia conflict. Nothing you see on the news is properly reflecting what’s going on. That's the thing about propaganda that people hear in the west always seem to forget. Propaganda goes BOTH ways not just one. A lot of the realists already know how the situation ends. This conflict has just turned Ukraine into like the child both parents are fighting during a divorce battle. They both make up whatever lies they can just to get their way. And it just sucked because at the end of the day it just feels like Ukraine's being used and not helped. At the end of these days all these sanctions have done nothing but hurt us and put the west in a far worse position. At least the regular public. But as long as they have the ability to call you pro Putin or pro Russian for any kind of criticism then many will just continue to remain silent. Now supposedly their barrels are shot. I’ll believe it when I see it. Who was saying that Russia was out of artillery? They ran out of precision guided bombs and cruise missiles. Surely you're not misremembering this because you have an agenda to push India wasn't even a Russian partner when it came to oil. They virtually use to buy no oil from Russia at all. Now they buy more than 750,000 barrels a day. It's a far cry from the millions the Europeans receive every day but I don't see how in the long term this helps Europe. People forget that Russia currently has one of the lowest external debts among major economies. They said the Russian economy would retract by 10% in 2022 which is looking far less likely now as well. Other than the US they also have the biggest and most sophisticated arms industry, capable of designing and manufacturing high-tech military equipment, and are the world's second-largest exporter of arms. We are far too globalized as a planet to really hurt a massive economy like Russia with sanctions. It's a lot easier if your Iran or North Korea. But too many nations rely on Russian exports for survival. This is the problem with big nations. They are super paranoid all the time about their security. Especially China, Russia, and the USA. If they feel like there is any threat to their security they are going to respond. Regardless of what the world thinks. We've done it before and will continue to do it in the future if need be. That's the slimy advantages these nuclear superpowers have. They knew the response from everyone is gonna be sparse because no one can really challenge them. It’s not much of a stretch. Dependence on Russian energy makes it difficult for European NATO members to counter Russia as its a big strategic cudgel against European economies. Energy is really the only major leverage the Russians have Russia tends to fall from the inside habitually through history. Very rarely do they suffer from an external force overcoming them. Last time I can imagine was the mongol invasions. You are niave if you think Russia+China will make a better economy and equally niave if you think they won’t use force to achieve their desires. Russia is doing the latter right now. Why do people who talk like this always seem to prefer that other option being led by authoritarian China or Russia instead of a strong democratic Europe? Maybe because they’re bad people. Yes, but a parallel society developed by autocratic nations for autocratic nations is so much worse. And for a multipolar society, parallel economies don’t have to exist- look at the EU and US for example; they are not in constant juxtaposition and yet hold significant influence over the globe. I use an iPhone. Where is the “Aa”? I can’t find such a thing Not business insider They can’t pay using rubles, and they can’t exchange anything into dollars because of the sanctions. Plus Poopin wouldn’t let them anyway. Have not tried incognito mode. Thanks 🙏 [deleted] Point being that it is retarded. Is like you being in debt and losing your home not because you can't pay your mortgage, but because the bank feels like not taking your money and payment towards the mortgage. And then, claiming that ""you"" could not pay up. Obviously, you can see how stupid that is or you are actively trying to go out of your way to be obtuse. The **point** is the misleading claim being made to people who do not know better. Why are you okay with our governments lying to their people by obfuscating facts? Do you want our government to treat us and talk to us like idiots? They could you know, not lie. That is my point. I mean the terms of the bond are quite clear, however the comments aren't wrong in saying that the term default is more symbolic in this instance than representative of a bankrupt state given they have a seriously positive current account that has increased even with the currency appreciation and sanctions. The Ruble’s strength is real. That’s what happens when sanctions cut your imports so much that your trade surplus goes through the roof. While that means the currency is strong, the economy is still taking a massive hit overall. Turns out, intentionally burning down your neighbors house really pisses off the rest of the neighborhood. Imagine getting evicted from your home, not because you can't afford rent, but because you tried to steal your neighbors' property so you're in jail and can't mail your rent check. Let me get my violin Imagine crying that your neighbors don't let you get to the mailbox because you murdered your nearest neighbor, raped his wife, burned his kids alibd, and boiled his dog. Or, being one of those convicted child molesters that moves into a neighborhood only to get your house burned down because you’re a pos and nobody wants you to be a part of society anymore. They shouldn't have invaded Ukraine. It's Russia, they may not care about feeding their people, but the Russian people pose the greatest threat to Russian rulers. I find it hilarious how the US is making the rest of the civilized world to look at us like a bunch of fucking morons. >USA in misst of a fascist takeover (1) That's hyberbolic. America is no means in a good shape right now, but a fascist takeover? Look up the definition of fascism. ""Right-wing positions you disagree with"" are not automatically fascist. (2) Russia and China already had their ""fascist takeover"". For China, that happened in 1947, for Russia, that happened in 2000. Well that’s a bit over dramatic [removed] How so? Reddit is full of radicalism and it’s making me feel uncomfortable. Yea Russias killing it rn can’t wait to invest! /s That's why it's called the fog of war. It's just a shame that you're essentially only allowed to be critical of one side... instead of both! I’m obviously very pro Ukraine and want them to win this war but you are 200% right. All MSM networks are saying Ukraine is destroying the Russians without any real military proof. Phase 2 of this war is incredibly scary for Ukraine, and knowing the Russian war of attrition, Ukraine is not in the best position. Your divorced parents metaphor couldn’t have explained it better lol I mean, I get that people are suffering because we can't get cheaper oil or Europe can't get cheaper energy, but what do you want the governments to do? Do you want them to let Putin do whatever the hell and invade whoever he wants? What is next, let China do whatever the hell it wants to and let them invade Mongolia, control the Chinese sea, take Taiwan, and other SE Asian countries because if we don't, we will have to pay more for crap? Propaganda goes both ways but there is no disputing that Russia invaded Ukraine. In 2022, there is absolutely no excuse to conquer other sovereign nations. The fact that I have to spell this out to you makes me think you are either completely clueless to the real world or you are simply a Russian apologist. If Russia had a problem with Ukraine, they could have settled the dispute with trade sanctions and negotiations. Dropping artillery unprovoked on a country is a fast way to lose all support from the rest of the world. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/russian-army-days-away-running-out-resources-military-experts-say-1688025%3Famp%3D1 literal first google result. What agenda am I pushing? I’m a little confused especially given that I’m literally here lol https://www.google.com/amp/s/breakingdefense.com/2022/05/russian-attempts-to-restock-its-military-may-be-doomed-to-failure/amp/ here’s another one ya Fucking pansy Lack of debt is not a sign of economic health. Is this finance or wall street bets? WWII ring a bell? The evidence that US/IMF led system is not working is pretty clear. China hasn’t used force to achieve their desires. I’m no fan of Russian domestic policy, but the only force they’ve used has been far more defensive than anything the US has done since WWII. I’m also not saying that Russia’s invasion is completely defensive either, but neither were Afghanistan, Iraq x2, Yemen, Somalia, illegal sanctions against Iran, Syria, Cuba. The world will be better when the US is not the sole leader of the world, and it never should have been set up that way. Because Reddit is full of MuRiCa BaD and China sympathizers. Bro, I hate the Yanks and would much rather a European lead globe, as much as it would still have problems. But I would still take the Yanks over China or Russia. The EU and the US is the same, that’s why. The US set Europe up as a client state after WWII. It’s US/IMF all the way down. When I click this link, it opens a window to read the article. Top right, just to the left of the reload button. It may alternately look like a tablet with lines on it. In Safari, it’s usually to the left of the URL. It’s the reader view. How about you just tell us what your thoughts are, instead of acting self-important and coming off as incredibly arrogant. If the bond holders don’t receive the payment then it is a default. That is what the docs say. There is no list of excuses which allow for an exception. There are no lies being spread on that topic. Look up the ISDA rules. The rubles strength isn’t real. As it in reality trades at a massive discount. You can put a sticker price of 140 on, but if everyone is paying 80. It’s only worth 80. It’s not quite as bad as the west hoped, but it is very much trading at a massive discount. Because this country is full of morons and its made by design… but them morons are going out of control How? >**Powerful and Continuing Nationalism** Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays. > >**Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights** Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of ""need."" The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc. > >**Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause** The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc. > >**Supremacy of the Military** Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized. > >**Rampant Sexism** The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy. > >**Controlled Mass Media** Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common. > >**Obsession with National Security** Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses. > >**Religion and Government are Intertwined** Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions. > >**Corporate Power is Protected** The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite. > >**Labor Power is Suppressed** Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed . > >**Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts** Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts. > >**Obsession with Crime and Punishment** Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations. > >**Rampant Cronyism and Corruption** > >Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders. > >**Fraudulent Elections** Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections. I'm having a hard time seeing how that does not describe the current Republican party and the direction the US is headed in. You are the problem and should look up definitions of fascism At this point its out in the open that the GOP tried to orchestrate a coup just 2 years ago. And they will 100% try again. Couple that with all the shady shit SCOTUS is pulling, anyone thinking its an exaggeration is either living under a rock or being willfully ignorant. It's not. It's what GOP is doing but thank you for showing us who you are. You're not very nice. I understand and appreciate the sentiment but that's not very nice. SCOTUS I hate to break this to you but the US is filled with radicalism too. what does that mean? If you want good, factual and well researched coverage on the war check out Perun on YouTube. The general consensus is that neither side is performing well, mostly because Ukraine is, well, Ukraine and Russia is Russia lol He also gives good analytics on how certain things don't matter nearly as much as the public things they do, while other things matter more. Obviously you don't want anyone to do whatever they want. But for the common good you have to come to the table and make agreements that both of you don't like. It's the pure hypocrisy that doesn't make sense. Sanction Russia and then try to plead for more oil from a far worse dictatorship currently also invading another sovereign nation. There's a reason why I called the USA, China, and Russia ALL slimy. Lol.. Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, syria >https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/russian-army-days-away-running-out-resources-military-experts-say-1688025%3Famp%3D1 literal first google result. What agenda am I pushing? I’m a little confused especially given that I’m literally here lol This first Google result doesn't even mention artillery Gosh I wonder what your agenda might be 🤔 >https://www.google.com/amp/s/breakingdefense.com/2022/05/russian-attempts-to-restock-its-military-may-be-doomed-to-failure/amp/ here’s another one ya Fucking pansy This one is talking about missiles and weapons systems. You pretty clearly made up the parts about artillery because you're a propagandist. It looks like you shared an AMP link. These should load faster, but AMP is controversial because of [concerns over privacy and the Open Web](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot). 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Maybe check out **the canonical page** instead: **[https://breakingdefense.com/2022/05/russian-attempts-to-restock-its-military-may-be-doomed-to-failure/](https://breakingdefense.com/2022/05/russian-attempts-to-restock-its-military-may-be-doomed-to-failure/)** | Breakingmedia canonical: **[https://breakingdefense.sites.breakingmedia.com/2022/05/russian-attempts-to-restock-its-military-may-be-doomed-to-failure/](https://breakingdefense.sites.breakingmedia.com/2022/05/russian-attempts-to-restock-its-military-may-be-doomed-to-failure/)** ***** ^(I'm a bot | )[^(Why & About)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot)^( | )[^(Summon: u/AmputatorBot)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/cchly3/you_can_now_summon_amputatorbot/) The Russians won ww2 lol The Soviets beat the Nazis…the Allies won that war. Granted, they were certainly invaded and occupied— but Germans fled west toward American forces to flee the feared retribution from the incoming Soviet troops. You mean the war where arguably the Russians did the lion share of the heavy lifting and broke Hitler’s back? That one? In spite of being on the defensive for the majority of the war? And came out on top? Yea it rings a bell. And than it snowed r/confidentallyincorrect >China hasn’t used force to achieve their desires. r/confidentlyincorrect, lol. China invaded Tibet, Korea, India, and Vietnam ever since the establishment of the People's Republic in 1949. They outright conquered the first one, and invaded the last one twice. They also went to a war against the USSR (with use of nukes fully on the table), although the fault on that one is more evenly distributed. It only **looks like** China doesn't have an active, interventionist foreign policy, because (1) China hasn't had the ability to project power beyond their neighborhood until very recently, and (2) uninformed Westerners like you just don't know much about Asia to begin with. Yanks makes me think you’re from the UK… weird sentiment after breaking off from the EU. Ok buddy. Just saying, a US led world hasn’t been as bad as you think; poverty, hunger, war, crime, etc. all decreased significantly across the globe as US influence grew. Yup. I see it now. Tried that reader view. It pops open the first page of the article but won't scroll down past it. :( >bloomberg.com/news/a... I clicked that but all I can see is the first page. When I now click the aA, a drop down shows up and ""San Francisco"" is clicked. Can't read past the first page That’s largely true. I was wrong to say it’s real. The point I was trying to make is that it’s more real than many of us anti-Russian people want to admit because of the huge surplus Russia has had since the war began. Again, that’s only a silver lining on a very bad economic situation. I’ve thought about moving to America for work (from Canada), but the last six years has me like “nah that place is too hickory!” Guns, lack of universal health care, and now abortions. To people from civilized countries this looks absolutely insane. you wouldn't understand https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism Here you go. Seems like you were having a hard time finding this The gun crazy GOP tried to orchestrate a coup against the strongest military the world’s ever seen using a couple hundred people, some geriatric, AND NO GUNS. Typical big brain Redditor. So, SCOTUS = fascists? So with fascism coming should we do puts or calls? It means you're being lied to. During a war there is so much confusion and so much madness happening around you. You don't know what really is true and what isn't. Both sides have a HUGE incentive to lie to you. That's what the fog of war is. And what good is freedom and democracy if you have to be silent when it should matter most. You can't even be critical of the west without being accused of being pro-russian. Love his slide shows! His in depth analysis are so informative and easy to take in. For a more clear tactical look I like this guy called history legends, feel free to check him out if you got time https://youtu.be/rLQPZkwrzKk Oh you mean like telling Ukraine to give up everything to Russia since that is what they want? You do realize that Russia wants an arms dealer who was sentenced to 20 years for Britany Griner right? You are saying to go ahead and make that agreement that we don’t like? It’s fine to negotiate if both sides come to the table and can make progress, but this is Russia who will want everything. Also, yea, it’s called Geopolitics. If you are a finance guy, then your just that a finance guy. Stop acting like you know so much about geopolitics, foreign relations, or national security. Sometimes, yea, you have to go with another regime to try to make things better in the meanwhile to offset something else. “Ammunition for combined arms” And elaborate on my agenda again arm chair general? What the Fucking fuck are you talking about? I’m American as Fuck as a humanitarian volunteer here. The articles all states Russia during the beginning phase of war was running out of materials which I’m saying isn’t true. Ah the foreign legion lol It looks like you shared an AMP link. These should load faster, but AMP is controversial because of [concerns over privacy and the Open Web](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot). 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Maybe check out **the canonical page** instead: **[https://breakingdefense.com/2022/05/russian-attempts-to-restock-its-military-may-be-doomed-to-failure/](https://breakingdefense.com/2022/05/russian-attempts-to-restock-its-military-may-be-doomed-to-failure/)** | Breakingmedia canonical: **[https://breakingdefense.sites.breakingmedia.com/2022/05/russian-attempts-to-restock-its-military-may-be-doomed-to-failure/](https://breakingdefense.sites.breakingmedia.com/2022/05/russian-attempts-to-restock-its-military-may-be-doomed-to-failure/)** ***** ^(I'm a bot | )[^(Why & About)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot)^( | )[^(Summon: u/AmputatorBot)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/cchly3/you_can_now_summon_amputatorbot/) The US made the Soviet war effort possible, and the Russians were only part of the Soviet Union China also is trying to take Hong Kong and Taiwan. China also owns a lot of mines, ports and natural resources from Africa, think like a modern colonialization. I’m Canadian. “American” is too vague a term so I try to avoid using it. I have yet to find a better term than Yank. How much of that world develop you speak of occurred in China, buddy? ""Too hickory""? What does that mean? A coup against the military? That’s why they attacked the Capitol not a military base/pentagon? Idiot. You are. -yoda You assume the MAGA freak scum thought the military was against them. The terrorists who attacked the capitol believe the Q anon conspiracy theory. They thought the military would be on their side. I just want to let you know you are a fucking idiot >Typical big brain Redditor. Yeah, you sure seem to be since the whole point keeps orbiting you and toy can't grasp it. The coup wasn't directed towards the military, it was directed against the politicians and if it had succeeded the military would be quite useless since they'd not get any directions from their leaders (aka politicians). In fact these terrorists counted on military/law enforcement to allow them to take power and reinstate their own leader (military, historically, has done so). And while some coupists were old a waste majority wasn't, buffalo bill comes to mind. As for armed they sure were, quite a few of them, and they threatened people with said guns as well. Then again a violent mob doesn't need guns to be a threat, throwing rocks is quite effective at close range as well. Imagine being so challenged you don't see a problem when thousands of armed vigilantes tries to overthrow democracy? Guess you didn't see an issue when similar mobs did the *exact same thing* to establish communism? Guess you're a communist then, a fan of violent riots and a disregard for democracy Yeah, and the people who put them in place,are also fascists Everyone knows the market dislikes instability… how does the market feel about theocratic fascism? Need to know whether to focus on puts or canned beans That's not at all what fog of war is. Fog of war is uncertainty on the battlefield. [deleted] Thanks, I'll have to give him a watch Stop acting like you know geopolitics, foreign relations, and national security. So listen to what my opinion of the matter since you know so much better right? Man it must suck getting paid in rubles right now. Just so you know the rest of the world feels sorry for you. Except for China and India. They're laughing at you all the way to the bank. Edit: I forgot about Ukraine. They're kinda pissed at you too. Turns out they think you don't need more lebensraum What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I've been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I'm the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You're fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little ""clever"" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're fucking dead, kiddo. I’m impressed by your ability to stretch Even weirder sentiment from a Canadian. The vast majority of you live on the US border, have the same brands, watch the same TV shows, culturally it’s almost identical. Utopia is everyone working together, creating divides is how you end up with Ukraine alone versus Russia. If they joined NATO and the EU they wouldn’t have been invaded. That prosperity has occurred across the world; in China, it occurred largely when China joined the WTO, a product of the American global order. We get too many birds stoned at once. Backwoods and backwards, that’s hickory I’m just guessing here, but do you actually believe that if the J6 rioters accomplished whatever their goal was, the US government would have been overthrown without a shot fired by the so-called insurrectionists, Trump would have been installed as a dictator, and the military would’ve stood down and just allowed it to happen? And then what? The entire country just accepts it and American democracy is replaced with a despotic Trump regime? Really? Thank you. That’s constructive. I guess we’ll see when the J6 committee convenes. [deleted] Yeah, fog of war is something experienced more by combatants related to situational awareness. That's why they call the dark area that in rts games. Looking at their post history, it's clearly a paid account Now replace ""the battlefield"" with war and that's basically what I said Yeah and I'm sure the billions of dollars in military equipment and support the west is providing Ukraine is free of charge right? Pure charity. No strings attached right? Yeah right! I don’t know, I’m not ignorant like you, but if you listen to actual people that do, that is the reason why they say it’s important to continue with it. And it’s what I’m repeating. Which makes way more sense then your stupid “let’s negotiate with people that don’t want to negotiate and let’s let them have whatever they want because I’m pissed my gas prices are up. Also, let’s let Russia have finals, Georgia, Armenia, etc. let’s let them get stronger and give China the opportunity to do the same because I’m tired of paying higher gas prices.” Of which you never really defend and just give blanket general answers and act like you think that you are right. It’s almost as if Ukraine and Russia did negotiate in the beginning. Also, it’s almost like if Russia did negotiate things like stopping warfare so that they can resupply and UN could help/feed Ukraine’s but then Russia says fuck the cease fire and starts firing again. But of course you have nothing to say besides keep negotiate. Yet, you prefer to listen to your own judgment when you have no experience in it. I’m literally an American volunteer supporting Ukraine. Stfu kid sorry I speak to the soldiers and ask how it is Go eat your tendies pussy Ummhmm… a “Navy Seal” threatening a civilian online. Said civilian turns up dead, nothing to see here… Last thing that organization would want is this type of publicity/image. In any case, save the anger (and trolling) for the Russians. I can hate the Yanks and still recognize partnership is good. So in China? Under an “autocratic government?” Thanks. Is this a widely used Canadian expression? With what is going on in this country right now what you said seems very plausible. Sadly. Using extra legal means to negate elections with force ""Actual people that do"" and who are those people? The ones you listen to on the media who have constantly lied to you. The warmongers who call for more war and destruction? You think we're helping Ukraine out of pure charity? Sending them hundreds of billions of dollars, military equipment, resources, etc. All for free right? No strings attached. Yeah right! I'm literally the pope You spend your copious free time defending Russia on the internet? K Woooooooooooooooooooooooshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Lol is this satire? An autocracy doesn’t correlate with economic wellbeing. The SCOTUS negated elections with force? What elections? how the fuck with everything i said and the context of the conversation means im defending Russia. stating that the the main stream media basically saying ""oh yeah boys Ukraine's got this war in the bag"" is saying im defending russia. You either must have rode the short bus to school or just an insufferable dumbass. PM me and ill give you all the steps to join the foreign legion or work with my supply train group for Ukraine. Go fuck yourself you ignorant moron. Encirclements at Severdonets and Vrubivka is no laughing matter. Eat shit clown If you fully read the articles i briefly sent or read literally like 90% of western mainstream news networks detailing the war from feb to april you will understand what I mean. Actually you probably wont cause you got your head up your ass" JPMorgan Chase thought it had $1.3 million worth of nickel stored in a warehouse. A closer examination revealed bags of stones.,1652,https://www.businessinsider.com/jpmorgans-nickel-bags-turned-out-to-filled-with-stones-2023-3,"I’d watch this oceans 11 sequel Excerpt from the linked content^1 by Lakshmi Varanasi: >The London Metal Exchange revealed a surprising mix-up last week at a warehouse in the Dutch port city of Rotterdam. >An operator for the warehouse weighed bags that were thought to contain 54 metric tons of nickel, only to find that they were filled with stones, according to The Wall Street Journal. >It appears that JPMorgan Chase is the unlucky owner of those bags, the Journal said on Monday, citing people familiar with the matter. >Had they contained nickel, the bags would have been worth $1.3 million at current prices, representing 0.14% of nickel inventories, Bloomberg reported. >JPMorgan Chase bought the bags years ago and remains an active player in big metals, the Journal said. ^1 Lakshmi Varanasi for Insider/Axel Springer, 21 Mar. 2023, https://www.businessinsider.com/jpmorgans-nickel-bags-turned-out-to-filled-with-stones-2023-3 Nickle Ore...is...a bag of stones. JPMC's belief that it had $1.3 million in any location is analogous to my belief that I had some pennies in my key cabinet. They really wish they could see some Nickel Back That’s some new level of bag holding… Hello, Chase I'm selling some liquid gold. $50k per bottle of Gatorade Who unchecked the Non-Deliverable option on the terminals again? Someone was trying to tell me there was zero chance that the paper metal market was manipulated cuz there was a meticulous auditing process. I need to find that comment so I can laugh at them. And in other news: the price of landscaping materials just skyrocketed. The spirit of Ea-nāṣir is alive and well. LOL this title is hilarious. If they had a nickel for every time they got duped… Why did they accept them without checking? *THEY’RE MINERALS, DAMMIT* It’s stupid to have ore when in a matter of days all the pure nickel coins from Venezuela disappeared from circulation after the face value became worthless but the nickel was worth plenty in $$$ in the commodities market. Took me longer than I’d like to admit to realize the story wasn’t about coins From reporter Lakshmi Varanasi, ""The London Metal Exchange revealed a surprising mix-up last week at a warehouse in the Dutch port city of Rotterdam. An operator for the warehouse weighed bags that were thought to contain 54 metric tons of nickel, only to find that they were filled with stones, according to The Wall Street Journal. It appears that JPMorgan Chase is the unlucky owner of those bags, the Journal said on Monday, citing people familiar with the matter. Had they contained nickel, the bags would have been worth $1.3 million at current prices, representing 0.14% of nickel inventories, Bloomberg reported. While that means the mix-up will have a relatively minor impact on metal markets, it does call the security of the LME's contracts into question. ""In an industry riddled with scandals, the LME's contracts are viewed as unquestionably safe,"" Bloomberg said. The LME first announced the mix-up last Friday but didn't disclose the owner of the bags or the warehouse where they were kept, according to The Wall Street Journal. However, people familiar with the matter said the warehouse was owned and operated by Access World, according to the Journal. A spokesperson for the logistics firms told Insider that ""Access World confirms it is currently undertaking inspections of warranted bags of nickel briquettes at all locations and will engage external surveyors to assist. In the meantime based on internal stock checks all information indicates that the underlying issue which led to the suspension of the 9 warrants referenced in LME notice 23/044 is an isolated case and specific to one warehouse in Rotterdam."" It's likely that Access World is going to bear the financial burden for the mix-up rather than JPMorgan Chase, the Journal said, because it was the company's responsibility to protect the stores of metal in its facilities."" I’ll give them $50 for the rocks Nickel has gone way down in price recently. Gold bugs will have a field day Think this is related to the nickel short squeeze from last year? 🤣😂🤣💯 Made my day This does not instill confidence in the bank, an institution that is supposed to have accurate accounting of things of value. Awkward Yeeeeah. We learned that Russia was all bark and no bite. Next we're gonna learn that banks have no actual financial power and exist solely on a borrow and spend principle. I'm shocked, I tell. SHOCKED! Money laundering? 1.3mm is a rounding error to JPM. Stratton Metals, a metal trader in Europe, also reportedly got bags of stones instead of nickel. “Someone’s replaced the nickel with rocks!” “You’ve been VECTORED!!” Is this Money Heist season 6? Bag holder This is a really awesome metaphor for what you view as valuable. Someone got gypped . 🤦‍♀️😂 Not sure who thought nickels are not the same size and shape Correct me if I’m wrong but it looks like he just switched the nickels out when he saw the movie cocaine bear and this is a great way to pocket $$$ and report a loss. What a legendary move ![gif](giphy|1WHAlOdc9ZNUZq85JI) The official statement from the bank spokesperson. “We just didn’t think to look!” I read that as bags of *nickels* (coins). It’s a Money Heist world Round off error in the 5th decimal place. Is it weird that they’re in bags with handles? Who or what lifts these bags by handles and how can it support so much weight? LOL 🤣😂 Heavy bags right there. I read this as “$1.3 million worth of nickels” and I thought “no way any one entity owns that many nickels! Not even a huge bank!” ha ha ha And here I thought I was irresponsible with money. So.. [no booby trap?](https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-24-2020/3ubf2s.mp4) Embarring sure, but this is a total NOOP for jpm. 1.3m is nothing Somewhere in some obscure pawn shop, someone’s trying to hock a bag of nickel. They should look in between my sofa cushions. Hey now, those are some nice looking stones. I'll bid 1.3 million dogecoins. Bahahaha There’s a metaphor here. You all are too funny. This is a chuckle of a story. Thanks for making my day. Some poor warehouse personnel will probably be the one thrown under the bus. 'Member that nickel squeeze a while back? I thought it was going to say “turns out they were chocolate coins…” More like stone 13 Oceans 15 I am surprised that 54 metric tons of nickel is only 1.3 million. That is a very cheap metal. 1.3 million? One guy’s quarterly bonus?!? What will T. James IV do? How much are they worth as bags of rocks The ultimate bag holder. I was going to say you’d have thought that they’d have known what the difference was….but clearly not. First time anyone asked for nickel back by name. He never made it as a wise man. you mean GET some Nickelback If they had taken a Photograph, maybe they can find it again Nickelback with a pickleback, mmm Would’ve been a very unhappy surprise for the stopper 👀 Wouldn't this indicate the auditing process *does* work? I'll bet they were swapped out after they were checked in. In the futures world a contract is a contract. It is up to the clearing house to ensure validity of the product. Big players like JP can take on positions in the thousands of contracts. While I doubt they’ed ever take delivery of such a large position it is up to the clearing house to ensure all is well. They’re straps for forklift hooks to use to lift and move. Rolling Stones. Oceans 28 I was surprised only $1.3m is .14% of all nickel reserves If you transported 54 metric tons by trucks, with drivers, how many miles could you take it away before you'd spent $1.3 million on transport alone? Is it? That’s 11 bucks a pound for a raw material. You can buy a 10 pound iron kettlebell on Amazon for that, shipped, and it’s actually been made into something. 54 metric tons in 119,050 pounds, which would put the value at $10.91 per pound. $10.91 per pound is expensive for a metal No they’ll give out exec bonuses then ask for a taxpayer bailout. Negative money About as much as the brains of our politicians. Based on the game Team Fortress 2, enough to hire teams of weird-hat-loving mercenaries to fight each other. (In TF2 lore, the entire fight is between two gravel companies, BLU and RED, owned by two twin brothers feuding over gravel mining rights.) In reality information on their worth would require knowing about the rocks in question. What size are they? What material are they? They might be suitable for construction and backfilling, or they might only be good for scattering around a zen garden. couldn't cut it as a poor man stealing it back Perhaps indeed. But it also could indicate that the audit process is too slow to be an effective deterrent to crime. More details will have to be revealed. Looking at the quantity of fines of Credit Suisse alone--let alone the financial sector at large, could indicate that oversight is a charade and more akin to the TSA style of security theater. However, only similar as there would be the sinister element where the terrorists can buy their way out of trouble if both situations were paralleled. Could be, because now there is a second nickel shipment from the same warehouse that is stones —- https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/commodities/trafigura-metals-trader-nickel-bags-stones-london-metal-exchange-jpmorgan-2023-3 They did take delivery of it, didn’t they? They are literally holding the bag Oh ok. I’ve never seen that before. I wouldn’t have thought the handles could support so much weight. Thank you! Oceans $0.05 Inventories, not reserves to be clear. Reserves refers to nickel (or other materials) unmined in the ground. A few key points were missed in this summary: - However, people familiar with the matter said the warehouse was owned and operated by Access World, according to the Journal. - A spokesperson for the logistics firms stated that it is an isolated case and specific to one warehouse in Rotterdam. - It's likely that Access World is going to bear the financial burden for the mix-up rather than JPMorgan Chase, the Journal said, because it was the company's responsibility to protect the stores of metal in its facilities. Worldwide or JP Morgan’s? That surprised me most. All of the nickel in the world is worth less that a billion dollars. I did not expect that I was surprised that JP Morgan’s in the raw metals business. Well considering a single Semi Truck can carry 40 metric tons in the US, the whole load could be moved with only two trucks. the trucks would have to drive around the entire circumference of the earth more than once to even come close to 1.3 million dollars Its easy math You could take 54 tonnes of nickel approximately 2.2 million miles to hit $1.3m in fuel costs. This is equivalent to 90 times around the earth. (ChatGPT is good for these sorts of calculation!) Cast iron isn’t pure nickel JPM didn’t ask for a bailout and didn’t want a bailout. Geitner and Paulson had to beg Jaime to take money he didn’t need to get some of the more borderline banks on board with the plan. If every bank didn’t accept the Treasury investment, there would have been a run on the banks that did. Look at this graph. Trafigura. Say no more. >… to protect the stores of metal in its facilities Are they implying they think the nickel bags were stolen and swapped for boring stones? So you're saying they could be anywhere by now. A single semi truck can't carry 40 metric tons without an overweight permit. The truck and trailer weigh 15 tons and a standard truck is allowed up to 40 tons. A metric ton is more than 2000# I imagine fuel is the cheapest cost, if you travel 2.2 million miles. That's the distance lifetime of 10 trucks. Lol obviously. But it’s a common metal. Cast iron, steel, aluminum, titanium, etc are all much cheaper, so nickel is not “a very cheap metal.” It’s actually pretty expensive given it’s not a precious metal like gold or platinum. People don't seem to understand this. JPM has some of the tightest risk management in the world. They're also the only one who might be able to bail out some other banks. I heard they regret taking on bear Stearns and Lehman in 2008, but mostly because they took on the legal liabilities incurred by those banks. I think they might have offered to take on SVB with conditions like ""we'll take the bank, but if anybody wants to sue them for actions before that, you (FDIC) get those suits"" but I forget where I read that. FDIC didn't let them bid initially because their leadership doesn't want more concentration in the banking sector. Of course there's only like 3 banks that might have a chance at taking it on, and where do you think the clients are going to run to in the absence of a buyer? Lol. New chapter for that book about commodities that just came out ![gif](giphy|26xBsNKFwYKzaiuhW|downsized) Im saying your question was poorly thought out doesnt change the fact that the load could still be moved using only two trucks. needing an overweight permit doesnt mean that it cant haul a load that size. nor does it effect the cost of freight enough to impact the economics of transporting the nickel More like 2 trucks >they took on the legal liabilities incurred by those banks. I think they might have offered to take on SVB with conditions like ""we'll take the bank, but if anybody wants to sue them for actions before that, you (FDIC) get those suits"" but I forget where I read that. FDIC didn't let them bid initially because their leadership doesn't want more concentration in the banking sector. Of course there's only like 3 banks tha You didn't hear wrong. There is zero chance they'd participate in another bailout without binding guarantees from the government regarding future regulatory enforcement and lawsuits stemming from 'bad behavior' of the acquired firm. I'd tend to think for the political calculus to work on that, the country would need to be facing a crisis so dire that it's hard to see how JPM's balance sheet would save it. For my part, I used to joke that ""we bought Bear and all I got was this trash can."" The little desk-size bins with the logo etched in might be all that's left of them. Well it was a joke, but I note you didn't account for depreciation of trucks - they would have to be replaced every 200k miles or so. I mean if you want to haul it illegally, a single truck could take the whole load. Look up a road train in Australia. Those get up around 250 metric tons. So whether doing it legally or illegally, you are wrong saying two trucks That sounds like a really nice souvenir in the ""it has a great story"" sense. The whole ""took on Lehman and bear at the request of the government and cursory review"" and then spending years on lawsuits seems like something to avoid. Oh my god. The circumference of the earth is 24,901 miles. Therefore a truck could drive around the earth 8 times before it needed to be replaced, and still not incur 1.3 million in freight charges And semi trucks do not have to be replaced every 200k miles. Many semi's are driven for well over a million miles. So it be more like 20 - 30 laps around the earth You're an idiot. Im literally right saying two trucks. You're the one who's wrong. Assuming we’re going to pay the driver the minimum wage of each country they are driving through, what’s the minimum we can pay them as they drive across the ocean? 0$ because dead people cant collect paychecks" "As Covid Hit in Early 2020, Washington Officials Traded Stocks With “Exquisite Timing”",1614,https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-washington-officials-stocks-trading-markets-stimulus-11666192404?utm_campaign=later-linkinbio-wsj&utm_content=later-30447135&utm_medium=social&utm_source=linkin.bio,"They are all effing scumbags and the citizens of their respective states should demand their resignation if they traded even 1 share. They hung Martha Stewart out to dry over trading a few shares with insider information. Politicians should be held to a higher standard…or at least the same standard. I’m as partisan as they come, but if we have two sets of citizens (the political class and the serf class) then we really don’t have a representative republic. Any elected person should be banned from trading stock or investing in public companies during tenure and 2 years post. This expands to their entire family. All these politicians are scum and should be tried for treason SEC? ![gif](giphy|l3q2PZSVUUEsajBIY|downsized) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STOCK\_Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STOCK_Act) Maybe this is the thing we can all get behind …maybe maybe We know, it’s called insider trading. It’s why we need to ban all government officials and family from trading individual stocks. Surprise! Are there many in Congress that are not greedy and power hungry and lining their pockets? Humans don’t trade much right? It’s all AI? 2nd amendment I would be tremendously upset about this if I believed anybody in Government had more, or even AS MUCH information as someone who was diligently following the best sources on the internet. It seems to me that ""Washington officials"" were behind the curve at every step of this disaster. People had been yelling about what Congress was ""briefed"" in secret meetings for TWO WEEKS before they knew it. Anybody paying the least attention knew Covid was all over the USA before mid-Feb (turns out that bug my ex-wife gave me in January (in Central Ohio) that gave pneumonia to 3 of her friends and cost her her taste and gave me a cough that just wouldn't go away was almost certainly our new buddy SARS-COV-2 -- it's circulation in the US in January has now been confirmed by genetic testing of blood samples from the time) Any idiot could have made bank buying that dip. If I had more liquid to invest at the time, I’d be sitting pretty on much larger gains 🤷‍♀️ *A corrupt Nation behaves corrupt even when it's citizens are dying cos Amerika bi*😂😂😂 Agree, except for ""demand their resignations."" What effect will that have? Can’t say that I wouldn’t have done the same thing. After how many days does their stock plays get public. Wow what a fancy way to describe securities fraud. Insider trading is completely legal for politicians . It’s shitty, and a blatant slap in the face to everyone else. Blows my mind how long this has gone on in the public eye. They need to be heavily regulated and held accountable… at the very least, charge them for the blatantly obvious insider trades. Politicians should be held to a higher standard when it comes to these issues. I do agree that Washington officials shouldn’t be trading stocks at all. I can’t trade because of the same AIM policy that these same officials oversee due to my role at work. Having said that, I don’t think it takes a genius to see that by Jan 2020 and Covid spread, the stock market was going to drop. Congress voting to “let people sell their 401k With no penalties and pay the taxes over 3 yrs” after Covid tanked the market, was the biggest stock grift in history. Now just to do away with Social Security and we can all literally work until we die. Is there anyway to read this without WSJ subscription? I work in finance and everything described here would get me fired instantly. Why are the regulators less regulated than those they regulate? We have to grassroots this. No old head is going to even try it. It has to start at home. Vote and nurture local leadership. Otherwise, you’re left with a choice between this prez or that prez, and neither are worried about this issue specifically because you’ll vote based on R or D or pro-life vs pro-choice etc. You won’t risk a nut job making it to the senate on this one issue alone. The extreme left vs right dichotomy works in their favor to make them all rich and it’s irrelevant to them because “laws for thee not for me” at the end of the day. And some of them were pushing narratives that were simultaneously harmful to the public and favorable to the trades they were making. Reason number 6,531,411 why it’s absolutely absurd and a complete conflict of interest for them to be able to do so. That’s cuz they new about it in October 2019. Who woulda thunk it. When are people going to wake up and see both dem and rep parties are rigged again you. They vote themselves raises, free furniture, limitless travel and an entire staff with *our* money, do you really expect them to set rules for themselves that inhibits their ability to profit off of us? We're nothing but an ATM machine for these leeches. I put everyone in the C-Suite on the exact same level. They don't view us as people, but servants. [removed] Nancy Pelosi won’t ban it, she loves it. She and her husband have built generational wealth with it everyone else is just following her blue prints. Amen 🙏 The two classes are the ultra wealthy and the serf class. Last I checked Bezos and Musk are not politicians. The problem is that these politicians use their office as a buy-in to “the big club”. No, someone who makes the laws esp something as asinine as jailing doctors who do their jobs and perform abortions should be held to a higher standard. Especially when it involves the laws they passed. Lol and you think the people who replace them with will actually do better? When will you all admit it’s not the politicians that’s the problem, it’s the machine which they operate. At this point, Revolution is the solution. Multiply the sentencing for public officials by the population of people they represent since they hold the weight of our influence. Or at least 10x all decisions on penalties for crimes, we cannot have our representatives considering crime as a possibility to become wealthy. If they dont start sentencing politicians to jail for crimes soon, history has shown that American people will hold their own courts. Treason is harsh, they have a law regarding this though, insider trading. They shouldn’t be treated any differently than Martha Stewart was You don’t even need to ban it. Just start with windows. But then you know, I bet a lot of laws would get passed around those windows Good luck with that. Maybe Joe’s new army of 80k IRS agents can have a useful 1st assignment instead of harassing middle class folks. Why would they do anything? This was perfectly legal at the time. It's the thing republicans use to villify democrats when they aren't in power. But their voters don't actually care if they do it. And it's the thing democrats apparently think won't change anyone's opinion of them WHILE they're getting hammered with it. I'm honestly confused they never changed it. I think they know even if it's made illegal it's very easy to just pass the info along to friends or accociates. But we don't base our laws in what's easy to convict (I'm scared this comment is dead wrong) They just use contractors. The market ranked right after the shut down. You could argue the panel put together, made aware of what was coming, should not have exited life savings from the market. Seems risky to pull everything then several months later reinvest. Lot of wild politicians YOLO their life savings. Some real honesty on here for once. They are supposed to report after 30 days. But the damage was already done. They had pulled all their money from the markets before shutting the country down. You forgot their outrageous pensions that they qualify for after barely any time working. Healthcare for life. Fuck them Its all moot because nobody has any idea what to do about it. Corruption has been effectively legalized amd normalized. Id be amazed if anything was ever done about any of it. Government power is based on the consent of the governed. I assure you she didn't invent it, even if she's currently the face of it FYi pelosi isn't even top trader as many people have pointed out. The top traders are Republicans, one of them has a crazy ass return being new to Congress too. Unfortunately Republicans have taken an issue that is on both party sides and turn it into a pelosi thing. I don’t particularly want to get into a discussion on abortion, other than to say, this is, and has always been a state issue, and not a federal issue. I don’t particularly care if they outlaw or don’t outlaw it, as long as the voters are deciding the issue and not activist judges. I think there needs to be a convention of the states. Term limits of 2 in the senate and 5 in the House. Presidential age limits between 35 and 65 for the start of the second term. And no privately funded media with an oversight watchdog made up of a bipartisan group of citizens and not government functionaries. This is a start. 80K agents where? They could at least investigate it and if there is enough evidence charge them with insider trading. This way the court can decide if new legislation is necessary. https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/3494 Dems tried... I meant the people maybe i should work in politics then. get close to one of these a* holes and i will be set for life. Let's keep them healthy, that sounds good, but perfectly correlated stockmarket bets? That's over the line. Shouldn't be tolerated. Well, I know a lot of us are thinking the same thing in slightly different styles… a physical presence and a gentle verbal reminder may be in order, lest the peasants find their pitchforks. Ok. I’ll go with that. She’s the face of it, the ugly corrupt face of it. We can thank her for nothing changing anytime soon. Nobody should be allowed to trade stocks while I’m office. Pelosi has all the power to pass a bill right now. Percentage returns are much different than a life long career of insider trading. This is an issue that regardless of your political stance should infuriate you. Notice I didn’t mention political party, because it doesn’t matter on this, she happens to be speaker she gets the heat as such. It's not a ""republican thing"". Or a ""democrat"" thing. It's an us and them thing. And anybody who has the republicans and democrats pointing fingers at each other, instead of pointing fingers at the human excrement in DC that is leaching off of ALL of us, is just enabling these thieves. The tribalistic ""team"" mentality needs to end. It divides us, the people, along lines that most of us would find invisible in our daily lives, and causes us to dehumanize our neighbors and blame them for society's ills because they are team red or team blue, and all the while you have these vampires feasting on us and our children. [deleted] Not interested in an abortion debate either. My only point is those elected to make the laws have to be held to any grey area interpretation of said laws as a higher standard than any lay citizen. Yep, just as slavery has always been a state issue. /s. Gtfo A 35 year old president? That’s a tough sell. I think they are all at the shooting range with the millions of bullets the IRS purchased over the last few years. There is no insider trading for congress. It’s legal. There was another Redditor that started tracking their trades and association with lobbiests. But it is still a 30day lag. But pretty cool site. It’s called quiver quantitative. Pretty cool site if you get a chance. And I hope if you do make it to congress you try to make changes that benefit the people, not just yourself. Yea, let them be healthy and get some of the best healthcare on the planet for life on our dime, while they tell us why we can’t have a universal payer system, so long as they’re healthy and happy right? It’s truly the one thing that both parties can agree on. They should be allowed to insider trade… for reasons… So many on both sides of the aisle getting rich on trades. Yeah no shit captain pseudo intellectual. It's is a both party thing when it comes to stock trading. I was just pointing out how many people belief it is just pelosi trading stocks so Republicans keep on pushing it is her so nothing really gets done. When something becomes hyper partisan, it always fails and that was what happened to stock trading in congress. Obviously pelosi doesn't want to make any changes, she was clear with that...so democrats just say they are trying to bully them and everything is okay. And give me a break with the tribalism bullshit. Anyone with a brain knows it is a rich vs poor agenda and it always has been. There are people in congress right now that want to do good. The thing you have to realize is that there is a time limit for anyone that goes to Congress before they end up corrupt. It is the saying one bad apple ruins a barrel of apples. In congress, we have a shit ton of bad apples. What we know is that Republicans are thousand times worse than democrats. Democrats have their own problems that will still hinder many people but it is the only way to progress. We have dug ourselves so deep into shit, we have to swim out of it. Why don't you propose a solution, and before you come up with the stupid don't vote for either parties, that tends to favor Republicans so you're technically still voting for someone. Even if we can miraculously start from point zero and have all parties abolish, the whole party system will start over. The system right now can work with lots of renovations. But yeah, let's hear out your genius plan That’s a tough one. I would make the case it was a federal issue because it involved interstate commerce of largely economic commodities. It’s always easier to Monday morning QB history because we magically know the right answer where at the time, there were a lot of moving parts. So before you paint people as racists without cause, you might take the time to read the Constitution. Current minimum age is 35 as codified. Better than 75 by far. I though this would cover it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STOCK_Act The American Medical industry wastes [$750 Billion](https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/09/how-the-us-health-care-system-wastes-750-billion-annually/262106/) annually. They agree on a lot more than that. They just keep us fighting each other so we won’t notice. It’s all a big club, and we ain’t in it! Both parties also always agree to raise the military budget. They only on the best things. I love how your pseudo intellectual rant ends with >we know is that Republicans are thousand times worse than democrats as if it doesn't invalidate everything you just wrote before lmao. ""Hey guys I know the Democrats are lying scumbags who don't want to enact change, but at least they aren't those lying scumbag Republicans!!!!!!"" [deleted] I wasn’t painting anyone racist, but merely making an analogy the parallels the tragic inhumane results from state right proponents. Current blight on women choice and their right to freedom to choose *their* bodily health without big government interference. Congratulations, because bow after over turning the roe vs wade, we have entered the age where **pedophilic incestual rape victims are forced to give birth** at risk of their health. We have **women’s failed pregnancy brought to near death because doctors feared the procedure she needed would be construed as an abortion**. It’s barbaric, and a failed policy. State’s right on abortion is wrong. It’s ironic of small gov advocates, make such claim so that they themselves can then hypocritically dictate their authority over the individuals. Notice how Texas Greg Abbott fights locals in hypocrisy to small government? TIL. Thanks! True! This. To protect the wealth they just stole. Duh If someone wanted to kill you and someone wanted to hurt you. You'll obviously choose the one to hurt you, that is the case with Republicans vs democrats. It is insanely absurd that some of yall are so stupid, you still haven't figured it out by now. Lmao keep on living in fantasy land. When you learn a skill like piano, you don't start by playing lizst but instead you build your way up there. That is what I'm proposing. You are proposing to start from expert level which is never going to happen. Look at how much disagreement is within the parties, your plan, which you didn't calculate would have to be voted in by your goddam congress which clearly they won't do that shit with the current politicians. It is much easier to vote democrats who aren't for corporate and aren't bought out yet. Once you are a politician, the likelihood of going corrupt is pretty high. Look, I could be the BoTh PArTIeS are the same retard that you are and propose an idea similar to yours but I know it is never going to happen, you have to be realistic. You have to use the system to make changes. There is never going to be any revolutions or riots that we have seen in like Sri Lanka. The system is here to stay. I agree with your 2nd paragraph. There has to be exceptions carved for rape and incest and it’s the responsibility of voters to enforce that. Voters, not unelected judges. Lol Republicans are coming to kill us all guys [deleted] Jc, you're stupid. You see how people can't come together and make minor changes.... yet in your fantasy world, you believe we can make an enormous change such as having a third party arbitrator or whatever much more extraordinary change you are proposing. That ain't going to happen lmao. Do you even live in a real world. Do you go from taking 1st grade math to calculus, is that how your world works? Swallow those words, the system is here to stay. Only delusional morons like you think we can one day overturn it completely. And it is like I said, even if you do get rid of the party system, eventually it will come back in some form of tribal way." Berkshire Hathaway structure,1618,https://i.redd.it/qw1v7zq4s8h41.png,"A bit of a mish-mash of companies in there, some of them with no obvious synergy. Did they just buy out any company that seemed profitable? Now do Google and all of their acquisitions. Wesco financial is using Wesco Distribution’s logo (different company) Are the major conglomerates/branches at least 50% owned by Berkshire? Or we including buncha minority owned entities as well? Still less complicated than girls Where is the Sheinhardt Wig Company Just a bit dated - Berkshire sold off Buffalo News I've noticied a lot of Berkshire Hathaway name real estate business popping up in the past year or two. Do they acquire these businesses? Does anyone know the relationship? They bought Precision Castparts for $37B 4 years ago. This seems to be missing all the recent aquisitions. jesus christ OP, where is Precision Castparts Corporation? $33B aerospace metal components manufacturer. don’t forget the $120B cash pile too! Would like to see this with % of ownership added. Where is the Alberta, Canada utility AltaLink? Recently purchased in 2014. Would you mind sharing what software you used to generate this? Holy fuck Where is coca cola This is pretty cool, anymore for other companies? Surprised, or maybe not, not a single automaker I think NetJets might be missing some subsidiaries. I know it’s at least missing Executive Jet Management. Great graphic otherwise. Crazy their reach. Not sure how up to date this is. Richline acquired Rio Grande Jewelry Supply a couple of years ago and isn’t listed here. Mmm, does anyone have this in excel? Im surprised they havent sold off DQ. Pretty sure Wesco’s logo is wrong. That is the logo used by a distributor of Power Utility Materials. Missing Van-Tyle Group. About 90 car dealership This must be old, its missing their biggest acquisition, Precision Castparts Corp. So, the Berkshire Hathaway real estate group is actually not part of the real Berkshire Hathaway?! If you can't explain the business in one sentence... This feels unsanitary I find it kind of weird yet interesting that I could buy paint, insurance, and a blizzard from theoretically the same company What software did you make this in? What a shithouse. Brookfield > Berkshire this is horrifying Wow. Now look at how much of their money is on banks. BNSF is actually owned by National Indemnity. Fun fact. Just wondering why such a important post for understanding the structure of a money making scheme, has so little interest from other people? I mean why this post don't have many upvotes and many comments? . Just a statistical outlier. Recent numbers prove that. [deleted] Just wondering why such a important post for understanding the structure of a money making scheme, has so little interest from other people? I mean why this post don't have many upvotes and many comments? Shaped like a pyramid Yes. They buy for value not for efficiency of scale. Yes. But also no. They use the capital on loan from the insurance businesses as the working capital for other businesses and to finance the investment portfolio. Also by investing in companies that BRK operates, they can hopefully make a larger return than other insurance companies who primarily go out to financial markets. Warren has more elegant way of describing this in the last couple annual reports. It’s more helpful to think of Berkshire as a mutual fund that buys entire private businesses as well as stock in public businesses. And then they keep the existing management in place. Berkshire Hathaway HQs only has a few people working there besides Buffett/Munger and his secretary. The parent company is tiny. May be synergy is the wrong thing to consider is acquisitions. Most acquisitions I have been part of have failed miserably to achieve the estimated synergies during acquisition. Well Diversified They look for monopoly power And then ask yourself “is it really such a bad thing that some politicians want these to be broken up”. I didn’t realise the scope of Berkshire but now I do I can’t see what their alignment or interest is, other than ensuring they make money from their ownership. That means any other stakeholder to the business either better be in alignment or have a pretty good reason to not be ignorable. I'd be interested in google and all of their failed biz ventures I think it's just majority ownership. Berkshire has a portion in companies like Apple, Bank of America, and Wells Fargo, but none of those are showing up here. Cheaper also Very dated. They had bought more media companies and have since sold the whole media arm. And Heinz hasn't existed like in the graph for some time now. Also sold Richmond Times dispatch recently too ...and Scott Fetzer needs some updating, they own more companies now, and one subsidiary is no longer. Do you know who bought them/ when that happened? Yes This I came here specifically looking for this sub and couldn't find it LOL Looks like Mindjet Mindmanager, but as I didn't make it can't be 100% sure. These are just companies they have a controlling ownership I’d say [deleted] Some pretty shitty spelling here. A boulevard of broken dreams Looks more like a patch of icicles to me. Value, but they also look at the efficient uses of capital. Something something decreasing marginal utility That's how Warren got started. If you look at what he does with insurance companies it is ingenious. There is a specific, or at least was, a lack of insurance leverage regulation in Omaha that gave Warren access to insane amounts of capital in his early, or earlier, years. Not many people are familiar with the numbers, but they are incredible. If I recall the formula is something like this: Float = Premiums - Claims - Expenses Technically, I think these would be “underwriting profits.” The point of breaking up a business is usually because its become a monopoly. Berkshire Hathaway just doesn't seem to present that sort of threat. Is their scope of ownership wide? Sure, but they don't really monopolize anything. Geico isn't your only choice for insurance, Heinz isn't your only choice for condiments, etc. So why break up Berkshire? The only break up talk I’ve heard is in reference to social media near-monopolies. Well that and some politicians not liking search results. >I didn’t realise the scope of Berkshire but now I do **I can’t see what their alignment or interest is, other than ensuring they make money from their ownership.** Whether you want to admit it or not, that's literally the fundamental purpose of nearly every other business in the world too, and you say that as if there's something wrong with wanting to make money from a business (they're not a non-profit)... Buffett's purpose for Berkshire is to aptly allocate/manage capital in order to create *and* steward wealth for Berkshire's shareholders. Nothing about that intention is bad or justifies breaking up BRK... (doing so would literally accomplish nothing) EDIT: Typo If you go by number of aquisitions alone then they should brake up atlas copco aswell seeing how many companies in different industrial sectors they own. And also most investment companies in general. >I can’t see what their interest is, other than ensuring they make money from their ownership That is the entirety of their jobs. If it’s coming across to you as perfectly reasonable to get the government to start directly managing large scale corporate finance, because it *feels* weird looking at a chart of a holding company, you need to review how fickle and baseless your advocation for massively detrimental policies is. Coca-Cola, Duracell, Amex, Phillips 66 (though that might have sold), the list goes on and on The B share is at least They still own 27% of Kraft Heinz. Maybe it should be reported as a security and not an owner company though. Lee Enterprises - another relatively large newspaper conglomerate that does more local stuff. It happened very recently, maybe 3 weeks ago [deleted] Wow. Sounds like a dealership distribution though, not an automaker. Did I miss it here? Well yes but I, of course and perhaps you knew I was too but were just expounding on it more, include that in the idea of buying for value. Their size has nothing to do with efficiency of scale which is why it being a mish mash of companies does not matter. They buy for value and that of course is a way to efficiently use capital and includes possible changes in the underlying companies capital structure. Your line of thinking may increase marginal utility, but with that comes increased risk with interdependence. Well, he originally tried to do it with banks but then got smacked by regulators and realized he could do the same thing with insurance companies. He’s smart as all hell but he was also really, really early. >There is a specific, or at least was, a lack of insurance leverage regulation in Omaha that gave Warren access to insane amounts of capital in his early, or earlier, years. Can you elaborate? Yes but it’s really about timing. They write long term contracts and are paid today, meaning they get to use all that money until they have to pay out on policies. An insurance company can be unprofitable and still have a ton of float No but partially there. Underwriting results indicate the cost or profit of holding the float, the float is essentially the net unpaid losses carried on the balance sheet as a liability, with a couple other inputs offsetting or increasing float depending on factors such as reinsurance, commissions, etc. Long tail insurance, malpractice, provides higher float because losses tend to be less immediate than short tail, such as auto, which can really only have a large amount of float through high volume, which they have in geico as well as others. The float is partially regulated in the sense that regulators control the type of assets insurance companies can invest in given their product mix. Float refers to claims that have not been paid or even reported yet. It’s free money to invest as long as the uw profit is positive. This. Plus if you look at BRK businesses, there isn't a mandate to to sell other businesses. And most of their businesses are in basic needs and commodities. Nebraska Furniture Mart on has a handful of stores, they aren't going out and opening an NFM in every market making that the ONLY furniture store. Does a company have to be a monopoly in order to be bad for a economy/country? Read Peter Thiel's ""Zero to One' to get more insight on monopolies and what companies add value and what companies don't There are no Social media monopolies. Only google is close to a monopoly in search engines but even then you’d be surprised at bings market share Really? I think there is some chatter from both sides of the aisle, but a lot more from the more socialist-minded dems. Business legislation is being outstripped by the pace business moves at. It’s all reactionary, and often there is too much of a lag on that reaction. Technology, for example, completely changes the game seemingly every few years and yet we still have politicians around the world who can’t get to grips with their email (not just Hilary - iirc Lindsey Graham, sitting on an internet subcommittee, refuses to even use his). I'm more interested in those companies allowing smaller ones to grow. Duracell is there. Depends on the girl doesn't it? You get those rare fews who make you decide between a Class A and them. Cool. T Hanks Control means greater than 50% stake. Oh I'm not claiming the opposite, it's just that it's no wonder that their profitability is slowly decreasing over time with their strategy since there are proportionally less external investment opportunities over time. I'm not saying it's a bad strategy. True, many insurance companies do this, especially in the p&c and reinsurance world (< - not on purpose of course), it’s catches up eventually though. Underwriting losses imply poor/risky underwriting, aka losses and cost exceeding premium collected. Consider an environment where investment results are easy and plentiful with interest rates declining, to take advantage of this management starts taking premium that may not have otherwise wanted in order to further their investment gains. It’s similar to taking on debt/margin during a strong market to keep up and continue cranking out profits. When that cycle reverts or flattens, the cards fall, investment returns vanish, losses continue flowing in, net worth declines significantly because any short term gain in net worth has now been eliminated, float inevitably declines as surplus shrinks. I've read the book, it's okay, but I think it over idealizes what a monopoly can do, while ignoring some of the nastier side effects that can follow. Either way, the point of breaking up a corporation is usually because it is a monopoly. If Berkshire is somehow bad for the economy/country, then that would first need to be proved, and secondly it would need to be shown that breaking up Berkshire is the best way to end their negative effect on the economy/country, rather than better regulation or some other solution. Google is the closest thing to a monopoly we have AFAIK. It's not just the search engine, they have the largest advertisement network, the most popular email service, the most popular search engine, the most popular internet browser, the most popular phone OS, the most popular streaming site, etc etc etc. Not to mention all the services they have for web developers, which integrates google services into countless other large companies. The amount of websites which integrate google tracking in one way or another, means that google can essentially see everything that you do online, then leverage that data to sell you stuff. If you erase every service google offers except gmail, chrome, adsense, and the search engine, google would still be dangerously close to having a monopoly on your internet usage/data. I don't think they're technically breaking any laws though, regulations still haven't caught up to it. Bings world wide search engine market share is only about 4% which ranks them as #3. Google takes the top spot with +/- 76% market share. The Chinese search platform Baidu has 15% placing them #2 on the list. Yahoo rounds out the top 4 with less than 2%. The remaining top 10 firms all have less than 1% market share. The search engine space is not a monopoly but it’s certainly an oligopoly. Can you give me some examples that run contrary to what I’ve stated? Technically yes, but I'm not sure I agree it's impactful. There's still lots of pie that are not sitting on Berkshire's table. I agree with you - thanks for your insight Afaik just ads on their search engine is vastly more profitable than anything else. As for internet data companies like Facebook and other social media have a lot of data. It’s also hard to quantify who has a monopoly on data since any company can collect it. I agree Google is a great investment based on the moat principles. But still Berkishire has 30% of it portfolio invested in [Apple](https://grufity.com/stock/AAPL-Apple/) (you can verify here). And I just check it doesnt own any Google. It's kind of baffling Elizabeth Warren wants to break up Amazon. Bernie wants to break up the big banks. Want more? The reason it starts looking like a monopoly on data, is because of their browser, combined with the other listed services. They can literally track every button you type on the entirety of the internet. Because even if you're not using their browser, chances are the site you're on is collecting data on google's behalf. Like I said, there's no legislation against it, yet. But Google is dangerously close to whatever a ""monopoly on data"" would look like. Facebook collects a lot of data, but no company can hold a candle to the amount of data Google has on you. It's because they have the most popular browser, phone OS, and email service. Which are essentially the 3 main components of all internet usage. I see a future where eventually categories of tech are broken up and treated as separate industries, instead of just ""tech"". Because they really should be. Social networks shouldn't be treated the same as advertisement networks. There's lots of subsets of tech, and Google has a clear ""monopoly"" on those services. The only thing they're missing is a social network, which they've tried multiple times and will surely try again. Yes. Amazon. An online retail near-monopoly. Big banks. 4 of which represent about half the total banking assets in America. The end result of decades of mergers and acquisitions. Neither of which have any resemblance to the conglomerate, Berkshire Hathaway. And each, a candidate for breakup for very specific, unique reasons. A monopoly implies they have something other people can’t get...it’s not as if googles having a bunch of data means it’s harder for others to collect said data... Amazon is in no way whatsoever a monopoly, or anywhere close to it. Arguing otherwise suggests you are fundamentally ignorant of either (a) what a monopoly is or (b) Amazon's market share in its various markets. Amazon may employ some anti-competitive practices, but it is in no way a monopoly. You're correct, and that's why I'm putting monopoly in quotes. There's no term for what google is AFAIK, but a monopoly is the closest thing we have to a definition for it. They 100% have control over the lion's share of all your internet activity though. Between Google and Amazon AWS, they pretty much control majority of the internet. If AWS were to have major outage, an incredibly large portion of major sites would go dark. If Google were to have a major outage, a majority of internet users would be unable to do anything other than scroll social media. Which is why I'm all-for splitting up some of these major services. I just have no clue what that would look like, since there's no precedent for any of this. I just think it's terrifying that one of the most important parts of our global infrastructure sits on the shoulders of just a handful of companies. ​ Edit: Also if you want me to get really technical with this, AWS is dangerously close to the actual definition of a monopoly. The services they offer are virtually unmatched. If you're doing the type of large-scale applications that most people expect of modern tech, your choice of services are slim to none. You essentially choose between AWS, Google cloud services, or rolling your own (a multimillion dollar cost, potentially multibillion dollar cost depending on scale). At 49% of online sales, they’re on the north end of an oligopolistic market, hence **near** monopoly. Monopoly to leftists just means some arbitrary bigness big at this point. They might as well start calling for the break up of “assault companies” considering how certain they are to move the goalposts on the definition. AWS is nowhere near a monopoly. Cloud is full of viable competitors like Azure, GCP, IBM, Oracle, Alibaba, etc. > As of February 2020, Canalys reports AWS with 32.4% of the market, Azure at 17.6%, Google Cloud at 6%, Alibaba Cloud close behind at 5.4%, and other clouds with 38.5%. It’s the opposite of a monopoly. Saying google has a data monopoly is like saying a tv producer that produces a lot of shows is a monopoly on that metric alone. Even a monopoly isn’t technically problematic unless it’s stifling competition and stagnating innovation. Googles advertising also doesn’t seem to meet the technical 80% market share definition and its slated to lose a bit from 73 to 71 by 2021. As for search engines google just by far provides the superior product and they are constantly innovating. Monopolies are only illegal if they hurt the consumer and so far it seems all tech companies tread that line carefully. Plus, because they have special deals worked out with US package carriers and now their brand new personal fleet, it's virtually impossible for anybody to compete with amazon in terms of delivery speed on any sort of national level, let alone a global level. A competing company would need to have billions of dollars invested to even come close to being able to offer a prime-like service. Even then, it would be near-impossible to compete with Amazon, since so much of their revenue comes from AWS (which is 100% unrelated to shopping). So Amazon has a seemingly limitless flow of revenue that they can use to obliterate any competition. Since I don't have any major qualms with the company, I don't really care much about them having a monopoly on online shopping, since any vendor can be a seller on amazon. I'm more troubled by their recent purchases of brick and mortar stores. It seems like regulations should limit them to the online shopping sector. Being able to purchase physical stores, means that they can start buying up competing stores and then either shut them down, or convert them into a delivery-only store, as an extension of Amazon. This is a pretty scary prospect that could completely destroy the concept of local stores. 49% isn’t anywhere near 100%" Citi warns markets are out of step with grim reality,1607,https://www.ft.com/content/d84dc366-cd2f-422a-b804-3efa24262275,"Citigroup said financial markets were “way ahead of reality” with tougher times to come, warning corporate clients that they should raise as much money as they could before the pandemic’s true cost is factored in by investors. “We definitely feel that the markets are way ahead of reality. We really are telling every client to tap the market if they can because we think the pricing now couldn’t get any better,” Manolo Falco, investment banking co-head at Citigroup, told the Financial Times. “As the second quarter comes along and we start seeing the pain, and the collateral effects of that, we think this is going to be much tougher than it looks.” His comments came at the end of a week when stock markets largely rallied even as millions of businesses around the world remained shut and economies lurched towards their worst recessions in memory. “Markets are pricing a V [shaped recovery], everyone’s coming back to work, and this is going to be fine,” Mr Falco said. “I don’t think it’s going to be that easy quite frankly.” Investors’ optimism led highly rated companies to raise a record $1tn of debt in the first five months of the year, putting investment banks such as Mr Falco’s on course for a big jump in debt capital markets revenues in the second quarter of the year compared with 2019. Mr Falco said the demand for funding could prove to be a “great opportunity” for Citi. Last week senior executives at some of the biggest banks also predicted another strong quarter for trading. This was especially true at JPMorgan Chase, where investment bank boss Daniel Pinto said trading revenues in the second quarter could be up as much as 50 per cent compared with a year earlier. Mr Falco was more circumspect on the prospect of a wave of activist investment in the aftermath of the coronavirus crisis. Low asset prices can tempt activist investors to buy into companies on the cheap and then look for ways to make them more profitable, often by cutting costs and jobs. You gotta be careful though because an activist can become very quickly a focus of governments if they really step in too hard at a time when people, what they want is to protect employment and to actually get things going in the economy,” Mr Falco said. “We’ve got to be careful because in some cases . . . maybe those [investments] are at the wrong time and could create a lot of anger.” Ya no shit Didn’t questrade kill somebody? An injection of 3 trillion free moneys and counting will do that. Breaking news As soon as things started going downhill investors started getting emails saying “every market downturn in our history has recovered and gone to new highs shortly after” then gives a long spiel about not exiting early. This has helped keep the markets from crashing again. If the virus mutates and vaccines are shown to be ineffective, the markets will crash again. If businesses aren’t bailed out and start to fail, the markets will crash again. Right now we’re living on hope that things will get better. I can’t see the article but this is likely the widest gap of market vs economy, Wall St vs Main St ever. Most of those who are now unemployed didn’t come from large/mid-size corporations (i.e. the market) but from small local businesses. My guess (?) is that the market is pricing in not much change to consumer demand it has just shifted but not diminished much. For example, local restaurants are getting destroyed but people still need to pay to eat, so the demand goes elsewhere. But you’d think given the unemployment rate that has to have economic impact somewhere, like retailers. Priced in. The top 10% of Americans own 85%+ of the stock market. The stock market is not a measure of how America is doing, it's a measure of how the wealthy are doing. The market has become fully synthetic, there’s no attachment at all to the value of the underlying. It’s one thing to be forward-looking and have some short time horizon priced into the market. It is another thing entirely for the market to represent nothing more than a rough estimate of what market value could look like for investors with very long time horizons. “Let’s price the market today to reflect the value we think it will have in 2025.” I keep thinking, if a GDP of $15T justified a post-corrected Dow of around 6,000 in 2008... then how is it that as our $20T GDP shrinks down to around $15T it now justifies a Dow of 26? Over-simplistically that means we’ve got about 4.3x optimism multiple priced into today’s market versus 2008. That’s some serious speculation. I also wonder how much price support comes from unwillingness to realize loss. The market dropped so far so fast, that at some point pension funds and other large position holders accept that they can’t sell, they simply have to hold long. They can’t afford to realize the loss. And they can’t risk the effect that their sale volume would cause, depressing the value of the remaining shares they hold. Of course the market is ahead. The Fed is buying crap to support the market and the rich. We (as US taxpayers) now own Bonds in A bankrupt Hertz. This is not capitalism, I have no idea what this is. Lousy companies should fail. They put no cash aside for a market downturn, take crazy risk knowing the Fed will bail them out. United Airlines has $0 in cash and we are buying their bonds. And poor people don’t own stocks, rich people do. It’s disgusting to watch the Fed hand money to rich people via the stock market while the common man is screwed again and gets $1200 bucks - WTF. So they are saying things will be worse than we think while advising their customers to use even more leverage? Am I the only one who sees something wrong here? We saw the exact same market dynamics happen in the Great Depression, this really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Another 20%-30% (pulled that number out of my butt) drop in the market is inevitable over the next few months, probably followed by more periods of huge volatility and dramatic price swings in equity prices until we reach a bottom somewhere in 2021-2025 (who knows???). Ha! No shit, Sherlock. Look at Citi stock price, Jpow’s machines are playing the music right now. There’s looting of a different kind going on behind the scenes right now..... We’ve been saying this since mid-March! Captain obvious "" Tougher times ahead as a result of pandemic, says co-head of investment banking "" ​ GEE, YOU THINK?? This fucker just want his Puts to print by next month. Fake News. I subscribe to the law of contrary public opinion; whatever *they* say, I say bet the other way. Time to heavily invest and not look back. In other news, water is wet Orly It’s weird what trillions of dollars does to reality No shit Sounds like citi jpm and bac are in for huge 3rd quarters maybe even 2nd There’s a reason KKR and Apollo managed to pull billions for their market dislocation funds so quickly No, say it aint so?!?! Or, Citi is undercounting inflation. Be greedy when others are fearful and fearful when others are greedy. When will people learn this? Keep listening to what everyone else feeds you and you’ll end up just like everyone else. Some might argue that they are however in step with the grim reality of the Fed printing $6T over a few weeks: https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/money/2020/05/12/coronavirushow-u-s-printing-dollars-save-economy-during-crisis-fed/3038117001/ “The way you and I have checking accounts in our banks, that’s how all these other banks have accounts at the Fed,” said Pavlina Tcherneva, an economist at Bard College in New York. “All the Fed does is literally credit them. They just type it in.” Lol ya think? I’m just waiting for a high profile fraud case to be uncovered to presage the beginning of the fall NO DOUBT The market is flooded with stupid money... a lot of people are going to get clobbered This is what happens when yields are 0. Where else are these billions of pension, endowment, foundations are supposed to go. On top of that the fed is buying up everything. Could someone weigh in on Jason Furman, one of Obama’s top economists, [saying](https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/26/2020-election-democrats-281470) that, “We are about to see the best economic data we’ve seen in the history of this country...”? On one hand, Furman is saying we’re going to have a V-shape recovery, but Citi is over there saying, “no it won’t.... you’re going to need cash, so get it from us...” Is it me or does this not seem a little suspect? Paywall Do you think this protest will be differemt considering the magnitude of stores looted or would you say its the same Asset prices are on creatine, plain and simple. Markets open higher on the news This is what I've been thinking - can anyone please ELI5. how is it that when people are 2 months behind on paychecks all of a sudden stock markets shoot up just because most (not all) people are getting their jobs back? As per City, the right investors can track the exciting trades, double cross and square up bonds, and manage to see blue skies in these otherwise confusing times. 300% returns made accessible and easy to get to. Love the system today. They are out of reality for years.. In 2007, markets were overvalued by 30% and Dow Jones was at this time around 13000 pts. Now, even with covid DJ is at 25000pts.. Thanks to quantitative easing. Yeah but as long as the money brinters go brrrrr... Doesn't Citi own like 1/3 of the new York fed, which is the entire reason markets are out of step with reality? Good thing this is behind a pay wall so people will only comment on the headline, not the article content. Great job! Wow, did this subreddit become a default or something? Last few months I've noticed a huge increase in conspiracy nuts commenting on posts. When the banks start yelling, “ALL ABOARD!” It’s time to get off. [deleted] Thanks, mate Thank you. I don’t disagree with the points, but it is worth noting this is coming from the head of IB. This is like your real estate agent telling you it’s the perfect time to buy. Printing a bunch of money out of thin air will do this. It has to go somewhere. Just think about the amount of money someone got paid to arrive to this conclusion. I heard it molested children Questrade robbed a Jimmy Johns in Toledo, Ohio at gunpoint Big if true. 7 trillion Breaking what I am not supporting or advancing this policy, but why should nominal asset prices fall if the Fed and other Central Banks are directly and indirectly bailing out credit and equity markets? You question ""if businesses aren't bailed out and start to fail"", but why would policy makers let them (them being established and listed businesses) if they already have committed to saving them the first time? I sincerely don't believe that the risk asset market levels we are seeing today have much to do with a ""cure"" or a vaccine but mostly with the fact that monetary policy makers have further cemented the belief that they will back risk asset prices NO MATTER WHAT (virus, natural disaster, social upheaval, excessive indebtedness, government ineptness). I might be way off. What I’m seeing is a sense of fragile calm given the unprecedented uncertainty of COVID. No one wants to do anything rash and since no one knows what’s going to happen folks are just sitting still. It’s kinda like playing chicken with reality. No one wants to blink first and topple the house of cards. Edit: grammar Yep. Pricing in a V shape while the gathering evidence is for a long L shape now. Even if economic activity rises to 10% less than Q4 last year by Q4 this year (and it might be worse) we are looking at the deepest recession for decades. 2 Months of loss that are know will not effect investor sentiment when it happened market wide and investor money is still there to spend nothing has changed. Its only when investors are fearful do we see drops fear is lessened and supplies are starting to flow again. Disease doesnt directly effect the market. Actually based on future projected P/E it’s not that crazy. And on current P/E it’s only slightly more inflated than February/January This is a non-sequitur. The rich own the stocks, sure, but the value of a share is still determined (in theory) by the fundamental valuation of the companies issuing these stocks. Even if hypothetically it was all momentum and not fundamentals there is no reasoning provided as to why. This is a lofty statement with no real evidence or explanation. The stock market is at the end of the day an economic market and prices have to come from somewhere. It is not some arbitrary economic health indicator. well put Good answers here. It's a measure of all of the things mentioned. It's a chaotic parade. Not exactly. What makes the market go up (regardless who holds the most of the market) is the middle class, from 401ks. The stock market is an indicator of how well the middle class is doing, with a mix of fear and greed thrown in just to complicate things. The wealthy are holding mostly cash and cash equivalents right now. Not stocks. [deleted] When 90% of companies are all going to have similar losses its no longer a loss for the market its priced in since it wasnt a loss caused by bad business practice just by the times so investor sentiment for that company will rise back quickly like we have seen. Investor fears are minimal now and supplies are getting back to it so people will invest in the same shit they were before. If the market magically stops trying to predict long-term (and 2025 isn't even that long-term)... that's almost guaranteed huge returns if you invest in sth. like tech companies. How would that even work? This is an outrageous statement. Yes, the side effect of QE pushes stock prices up & there is a bit of overoptimism. But saying that there is no attachment to real value ? Really ? The stock market isn't the representation of the present economy, it's most importantly a representation of the **long term** health of an economy. Not short term not medium term, long term. Investors aren't buying stock because a company is doing good only today, they are buying them because they assume the company is going to be fine in the future. The stock market is the way it is right now for multiple reasons, first contrary to the 2008 crisis we're suffering from an exogenous shock not an endogenous. So it's easier to rise from it once the shock fades away, we probably won't struggle as much to get back up as in 2008. Second, interest rate : they are so low that bond aren't interesting for most except for the junk category and it's quite risky. Relative to the bond market, the stock market is ""cheap"". Sure there is overoptimism about the covid situation and we're up for a correction but not one as big as on 1929 when the economy suffered from endogenous problems. But one could argue that we went through the tougher part of the crisis, sure we're going to operate at a suboptimal (production, work...) in the short term but not for more than 1 year. And to conclude, the FED and ECB actions were outstanding. Quickly and efficiently maintening interest rate at a level where struggling companies are going to be able to borrow at a cheap rate, wether it is from a loan or bond offering. Most of the company publicly traded still have very viable business model, even some of whom where downgraded to junk in April due to the mess we suffered from. The overleveraged companies are in for a rough time though. Except in the Great Depression the Fed didn't make the money printer go brrrrr into infinity. > We saw the exact same market dynamics happen in the Great Depression The great depression looked quite a bit different than the Spanish Flu 20 years earlier which also crashed the market. That crash looks more like today's crash. Pay no attention to citi stock price, nothing to see here Water is not wet So which one are “others” right now, fearful or greedy? is it actually? I apologise for that QE fucked the middle class and now we are using it to prop up the markets now Looks like they got their wish He’s just hoping it crashes after the election instead of before. As an eternal optimist, I’m not so optimistic. Well yeah anyone whos played the markets long enough knows these people generally are not right usually wrong more times than right. Trade on the trading floor chatter not on the press releases. How do you think US dollars are created, if not ""out of thin air?"" And to think this is brought up now rather than over the last months. Thanks for the great insight Citi This is from FT, I’m sure they work to keep costs down... 200 programmers at some tech giant made 6-figures each for several years to build an AI that wrote this story. But that kept costs down by letting FT lay off a couple dozen journalists who were making $150 a story. Then the AI needs $250,000 in hosting and $5,000,000 in updates and support each year. But that’s “ammortized” across all the stories in FT, so they can, ya know, keep costs down. Probably a $10,000 article. Because FT kept costs down. /s you animals No that's Zuckerberg. Was arrested for it last week. Their silence on the matter speaks volumes Hope is the only thing keeping the markets afloat. Most people I’ve talked to in person have focused on waiting for a vaccine (the other group just wants us to open now). If the fear of mutation becomes a reality then the markets will crash or at least falter. It’s too uncertain of a belief for me. I personally think we should be focusing on production of effective masks such as the N95 (putting hope in something that’s more of a certainty). Then just open up and try to educate people. At least in the US, cities with low covid infection aren’t taking safety precautions seriously. But I think that’s a problem which will solve itself (like anti-vaxxers). That’s the feeling I get too This is also why the stock market is still up. People are flocking to sectors that are either covid-proof, or covid-beneficiary. I decided to break down the SP500 by sector the other day and EVERY sector besides healthcare and tech are trading below the SP500 average. This is why ""the market"" is up. Because the nice top-dollar cream corps are so safe for investors that they are FLYING into them so fast. Apple, MSFT, SQ, SHOP etc are all going to stay up in spite of vaccine or not, riot or not, quarantine or not. What's gonna make someone pull their money out of apple? War? War is GREAT for tech. Just turn on your radio. Last time there was a pandemic with shelter in place and all that 120 years ago the economy recovered quite quickly. For decades you say? I love the hyperbole. You guys will do this shit all the way to the top too. The earnings part of that equation hasn’t been modified moving forward. Earnings are very volatile in a recession and often vanish completely. Earnings *growth* is often impossible to come by. When companies start issuing forward guidance again, it will be a blood bath. So I should invest heavily in long S&P positions, futures and not scaredy-cat options, right? Jay Powell is that u? Except for the meme stocks. ZM at 2.1k PE lmaooo The value comes from the feeling investors have about the companies and not their actual underlying assets or ability to generate income. Which is why stocks like Tesla yo-yo with every press release The thing is that market prices, especially equities, can deviate from “fundamentals “ for a long time - long enough for those fundamentals to actually change and in some catch up with prices. Maybe if businesses were valued by atemporal robots. But they're valued by markets with human participants in the middle of a pandemic depression. [deleted] You should look at the Nikkei earnings yield vs Japanese interest rates if you want to see how much those can diverge. So then how do you explain the same bubble phenomenon going on in small/mid cap growth as well? There are plenty of examples of securities down there that are, upon ~1 hour of scrutiny, becomes clear there is either fraud going on (biotech/pharma pump and dumps; accounting shennanigans) or will never earn enough cash to justify their current cap. Consequently, there are plenty of value stocks that look like they just got hit by a fucking meteor. The schism between the two, often to simplistically cited as the growth vs value ratio, suggests there is something more going on. The interest rate argument only stands for so long before it gets exhausted. I think we've blown past that point. If you've looked through enough small caps, it rather obvious. I agree with much of what you say. Dow ≠ market ≠ GDP ≠ economy. But the consequences of insanely unsupported over-valuations are known, it’s not like we haven’t experienced corrections before. If GDP goes down by 25% and the resulting Dow (again, not the same as the market or the economy) is off 7%, then yes, historically low interest rates are going to have to start mattering much more than earnings. You think buying bonds in Hertz and United Airlines is a good thing. This is a capitalist country - these firms should go BK - not be propped up with your tax dollars. Fiscally, the feds did, to great detriment, in addition to many price controls and quotas, which we now know lengthened the depression considerably No such thing as a free lunch. They did, that’s what WW2 basically was Good point, but the Spanish Flu was also in the context of the war time economy of WWI. So this pandemic is neither like the Great Depression nor the Spanish Flu. Only time will tell what alphabet letter we're gonna get from the economic recovery. Cool story, bro! Very very greedy Yes That’s up for you and you only to decide. Protests have little to no economic impact unless they last months. Investors know this. So do educated people who are underemployed and have been since entering the labor market. Currency flows circulatory we generally only print a certain amount a year and that is usually in response to the amount of bills the treasury takes in and burns. Out ya moms puss Heard he got epsteined in jail, short eyes don’t last long A realistic time period for a vaccine - and its distribution - is probably 1.5-2.5 years (and that is optimistic). There's no way you can be telling me that only two months after market lows we have injected so much ""hope"" in the market so that the Nasdaq Composite is only a couple of percentage points from ALL TIME HIGHS. Policy makers - once again (post-GFC) - have created a new ""Goldie Locks"" environment for risk assets where 1) if the virus and economy get worse, they will unleash unlimited liquidity and potentially buy more assets; 2) if there's a ""cure"" for the virus and/or the economy starts to improve, they will keep applying excessive liquidity and asset buying measures for nearly a decade longer than needed. This is exactly what they did post-GFC and the subsequent decade following it when instead of letting risk asset markets adjust they continued to pour gasoline on the fire with QE2, QE3, Twist and suggesting they would be willing to do even more - and that was BEFORE COVID-19. The Fed ended up creating such imbalances it ended up accidentally creating the Repo Market crisis - that led to 7 months of non-stop ""not QE"" Fed interventions into the Repo Market. The point is that the Fed and other Central Banks have essentially take all of the nominal risk out of risk asset markets by backing credit markets to the point that normal failure is no longer an option. The have bailed out excessive risk takers and asset holders while pretending that the jobs they are ""protecting"" somehow even matter in a world of massive income/wealth distribution issues and ignored (thanks to dependence on debt) structural issues in healthcare, housing, education - and as we are seeing - justice / police reform. Spanish Flu was 1918. 102 years ago. And the economy was in the middle of war production. America was fighting the Great War. And that is just one of many reasons that this is not the same at all. Where is this “top” of which you speak? How are they wrong? Beats me Traditionally it was linked to how business was doing hence the need for Citibank to point this out in the first place “Make up a majority of the gdp if measured in people and not dollars” Idk how to even unpack how dumb that statement is. I agree. I am not an economist, and not a day trader, but have been the CEO of a publicly traded small cap at another time. My stock prices were not at all a reflection of interest rates and were dramatically effected by short-mid term earnings expectations. Even a large cap... watch Apple or Amazon the day after an earnings call vs the day after a large rate move by the FOMC, and the constant pressure for near term earnings will be obvious. Stock valuations vs interest rates are pricing stocks at some of the cheapest levels in history. ""I think stocks are ridiculously cheap if you believe ... that 3% on the 30-year bonds makes sense"" (it's at 1.5% now) -Buffet Bond yields matter regardless of if GDP drops or rises. The bond market is far bigger than the stock market, and if it continues getting crushed to 0/negative in all first world currencies deemed ""risk free"" (and we're almost there) and stays there through the next business cycle, then the investment landscape and valuations will be fundamentally changed. The followup question is of course ""does <3% on the 30yr treasury make sense"", and that's a valid question. We'll see how it plays out. The most popular alternate view seems to be unavoidable COVID shock deflation followed by overshot inflation. Regardless, the ""insanely unsupported valuations"" are indeed supported by risk free yield getting crushed to 0 and negative worldwide. Should companies fail because their industry was hit full force by an exogenous shock or because the business model isn't viable ? Before the covid United Airlines was doing great with their new plan put in place 2018. The only reason they are in trouble is : COVID, and no **amount** of cash in the safe can protect you from your industry literally shutting down. And trust me, you don't want the airlines or companies as whole failing one by one. Brrrrrr went the machine gun then, the printer now. Well the market looks overvalued to me so I’d say others are being greedy Doesnt matter trumps never appealed to them he appeals to his base which is your average idiot. If you’re talking about physical cash then sure, but if you look at broad money, which is more realistic, then new money is constantly being created. The money supply actually consistently increases during times of economic expansion. This Bank of England bulletin gives a great explanation for anyone interested: https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/-/media/boe/files/quarterly-bulletin/2014/money-creation-in-the-modern-economy.pdf?la=en&hash=9A8788FD44A62D8BB927123544205CE476E01654 I love well written posts like this I get your argument, but basically what I think the other individual is trying to say is what honestly a lot of people have figured and this insane event has uncovered: this is black magic math, no backing in science, no proofs, purely controlled by the whims of people’s feelings. Any attempt at justifying market valuations is purely theoretical. As per everything not backed by significant scientific research and testing, there’s no method to the madness on this blue marble tumbling around the milky way, we’re just trying to pretend there is. Ha! UAL has $0 in Cash and had $2m in cash before Covid-19. Instead of setting their company up for a possible downturn in business, they do stock buy backs. Over inflate their stock so management gets bigger bonuses and stock options, knowing if something happens, the Fed (our tax dollars) will bail them out. Yes - a poorly run company - UAL- should be allowed to fail. While a Southwest, would step in a buy the pieces and do a much better job of running the remnants of UAL. Same goes for Hertz. What if ""bad luck"" hits a single company only? Is it allowed to fail then? The Fed bought treasuries to keep yields down during WW2. Here's the actual market index for Fear x Greed: [https://money.cnn.com/data/fear-and-greed/](https://money.cnn.com/data/fear-and-greed/) We're actual technically neutral right now, but to be fair, we've been overvaluing and overbuying stocks for the past decade+ so... Can give you 10 other banks saying the opposite. I wouldn't go so far as to call it black magic math though. Yield is increasingly valuable as the risk free rate hits 0. Right now you can easily buy an asset with an expected return of 5% a year even at current valuations, while cash returns 0% yearly and bonds return near 0% yearly. That's not a theoretical justification, that's very real. I'm not talking about growth stocks either, but filtering for quality (iron strong balance sheet) and value it's quite easy to get companies with a 20 P/E while cash returns near 0% yearly and bonds are near 0% yearly. The math models are very clear that bond holders are huge losers at these levels while equities are relatively cheap. Valuations have *always* been based on the risk free rate and inflation expectations. Just because we have a new paradigm here with 0 rates worldwide doesn't change this. Madness would be something like equity prices *falling*. Equity prices rising as there is no yield in bonds, while we have 4.5 trillion in money markets on the sidelines (with 0 yield) is quite expected and the logical outcome. What ? 0 cash ? United ended the first quarter with 5 or 6 billions on hands. Your numbers are just wrong. Though if I remember well 2 billions were already spent. And they are expected to receive some government help. Just check their balance balance sheet if you don't believe me. Do you really consider 6 Billions in cash to be nothing ? I don't understand why stock buybacks are seen as ""evil"", it's a message from management that they can't do anything with that money (especially when this was announced pre crisis) you can't just pull it out. And this cash from buy back will be invested in companies that needs it by stockholders, it doesn't just sit in a bank account. This is why stock buybacks & dividends exist. If it's only a single company, it won't fail except if the management is bad and the business model really not viable. In ""peace"" time, a company struck by bad luck will still be able to issue shares, offer bonds or get a loan. They will get their funding at a higher interest rate, higher yield on bond or a lower share price but they will get it. Banks won't be scared nor the investors. The high yield junk bond market was on steroids before the crisis, investors like those things it's profitable. What's happening today is that if the FED didn't intervene companies would either be failing to get funding or get funding at unacceptable rate. (noting that interest rates are still higher than normal) > And this cash from buy back will be invested in companies that needs it by stockholders, it doesn't just sit in a bank account. Um, I’m not an expert but I believe this to be profoundly untrue. I would be willing to be that well over 99% of the proceeds of share buybacks go to buy existing shares in other companies from their existing shareholders, not new issues. In other words, very little if any is actually “invested into companies that need” it. If Amazon cashes me out in a buyback and I use the proceeds to buy Apple, then Apple gets not one penny of that. The person who sold me those Apple shares? Most likely reinvested in another existing stock, and so on... I didn't meant it in such a linear way (share repurchase -> initial or secondary public offering), but as you point it share repurchase lead to an increase demand for other stocks. Potentially rising their prices but most importantly it provides liquidity for the stock market, meaning that when an initial or secondary offering appears more cash will be there to take part in it. And also the potentially higher share prices make loans based on stock as a colleteral easier." The Fed needs to bail out the real economy — not big banks,1565,https://finance.yahoo.com/news/fed-needs-to-bail-out-the-real-economy-not-big-banks-144333573.html,"""Too big to fail"" is a national security attack vector. When a company reaches ""too big to fail"" they must automatically be broken up via anti-trust as they are a monopolistic/oligopoly and are a single point of failure. Maybe we should just let the free market do its thing. Stop propping up the stock market, stop bailing out the banks. Have a plan to unwind big institutions that can't survive on their own. This ""extend and pretend"" BS is clearly not working. The fed wants to expand its toolset. I’m not sure if their intentions align with the lifestyle the average person wants to achieve in the next couple of years. I don't think monetary stimulus from the Fed is going to help much at this rate...it really comes down to fiscal stimulus. Every stock is insanely overvalued. No one is talking about this massive bubble As a stockholder of cruiselines, I'm glad the government is stepping in to bail out the industry. As a tax-payer, I wish they would just let the market be the market. That being said, the intent of bailing out banks is to keep the flow of credit. Propping up the top is the problem. Republicans run on the “supply side” doctrine of Milton Friedman in the Reaganomics era without paying attention to what Friedman said about the Negative Income Tax as a Demand Side to support the consumer’s capacity to participate in the market. This has caused wealth distribution UP the wealth pyramid where assets are aggregated instead of in flow. Wealth inequality is not just dangerous from the bottom, but also creates instability all throughout the economy. When capital is not flowing, it freezes up like a glacier. Then investing strategies try to chase growth that isn’t happening because demand is down due to the precarious situation of the people lower on the pyramid. So now we got talk of “helicopter money” one-time stimulus grant of $1000 per adult in the US, but that may not act as intended. Prez Bush have us the $300 stimulus, but then the price of gas went up so for working folks, this all went straight into the tank, making it a de facto bail out for the oil companies. With OPEC having a price war, my guess is the stimulus will go more into the healthcare sector. It’s unclear what the cost of corona mitigation will be for patients, pay for your test but not any complications? My theory is that the economic cycle starts with that a consumer has a need or want they are willing to pay for, not that a capitalist invests in some idea or company. The consumers are the real “job creators” and the fragility of our economic system shows that fact has been forgotten or ignored to the peril of all. To be clear, I support the idea of a basic income to put a floor to poverty and shore up the buying power of the demand side. Top-heavy things tend to topple. The banks, energy, weapons, etc. Anyone who sits in a boardroom and gets cash or subsidies is also going to contribute to campaigns. Politicians care about them even though you and I are the ones doing the paying. The fed doesn’t care about the little guy, well unless you got some info on the Biden’s. The fed does not have access to or authority to directly affect the real economy. Imo: we continue to elect the worst people to run the government and the Fed can only do so much. Wait. The Fed doesn't do bail outs. That's the government. The Fed sets monetary policy. What am I missing? Maybe if they got rid of student loan debt millions of Americans can help stimulate the economy too. Why bail out the banks when everyone is in debt to the banks. Car debt, student loans, personal loans, medical debt, credit card debt. The entire nation is basically ran on debt to the banks. The only problem is those ""big banks"" are the ones holding the regular people's money. About time I see a finance post that is all pro Fed The Fed = The Federal Reserve Bank. The Fed can control money supply ... which can benefit banks, businesses, and even homeowners. But, to be clear, they can not ""bail out"" anybody. The Treasury is the organization that arranged for and managed TARP ... which is what you might be calling ""the bailout"". There is also the FDIC ... which is explicitly there to insure deposits against bankruptcy and, in 2008, certainly intervened to organize ""buyouts"" in lieu of ""bankruptcy"". Who is the lender for me? I’m in a crisis right now? Title is nonsense. The Fed IS the Big Banks. How does this work when the financial (services) sector has grown to composed more share of the economic? Financialization is what fueled the spectacular run-up of blue-chip multinational (conglomerates) such as GE and the likes as well. Bailing out the economy is the role of fiscal policy, which is unfortunately being run by idiots right now. The fed currently acts, and always has, as a lender of last resort to the financial system. It provides a backstop to help prevent frequency panics that we saw in the 1800s. I’m not saying that the real economy doesn’t need to be bailed out at times, but that’s not the role of monetary policy, it’s the role of fiscal policy. that would mean hiking rates to fix the economy. hiking rates would be bad in the short term and good for the long term. Just like any other medicine it's bitter in the beginning but the good effects come later. Don't worry, they won't I guess nobody really read the article... It is about QE that involves buying corporate bonds of the afflicted companies. This is a very good proposal. very true Wanna bet which one they bail out though? How is the Fed bailing out big banks? Lowering interest rates hurts their net interest margins and revenue. It confounds me that establishments that establishments which are supposed to protect and know money the best...are so leniently treated. Banks only exist because we needed them at one point. Now with everything online I feel they are obsolete. I agree. The majority will have more impact than big banks. UBI #FREEDOMDIVIDEND let's apply milton's idea: helicopter money like they are doing in HK Can someone explain to me how it takes weeks to approve 8 billion for pandemic relief but no time at all to inject 1.5 trillion dollars into the stock market? Türkiye bist100 haberleri için [borsa canlı](http://borsacanli.net) sitesini kullanabilirsiniz. I recommend you guys to use [DrEmployee](https://dremployee.com) in calculating your Sales Tax if you're having a hard time calculating it manually. Not only this is useful in office works but also, whenever you're gonna buy something that's on sale and yopu wanna know what the real price is. The economy IS the big banks. Without them, or with them in lockdown mode, nothing flows, no money is lent, no payments processed, no checks drawn, etc., etc. We need them. That is why Obama gave precedence to bailing them out in 2009. There was no alternative. Unfortunately, the banks immediately took advantage of it by giving huge bonuses to the ignoramuses who failed the economy. No, banks are critical. That is why we need to nationalize them. (Socialism 101) Why is the fed bailing out anyone? That is not their job. If your house burns down and you don’t have home insurance are you expecting the government to buy you a new house? The Fed still has six trillion on their balance sheet they need to tighten and remove the six trillion. Let the economy crash and then we can have have organic and sustained growth not an inflated asset bubble. Joe Biden will bail out banks and cut social programs. I guarantee it. It will be touted as ""Bi-Partianship"".... Who am I kidding, Biden will never be President. You middle of the roaders are the reason Trump will win. ​ Now all the poor people will need to get 4th jobs so that the crooks on Wall Street and afford the pedophilia rings on their coke filled private yachts bought with Federal Money (I thought socialism is bad). Why would we bail out the banks? If we can't afford into investing in our healthcare, why should we invest in an economy that only works for those on the top that actually do nothing. ​ Example, Betsy Devos. How has she help GDP? Hoarding the money and spending it on luxury goods? You people have some great mental gymnastics skills unless we are looking at a rich person doing nothing. Its like the dog whistle stopped and you know not to ""shame"" that ""wealthy"" person who ""earned"" it. Eat the rich If I was in charge, I would: 1. Forgive all student loan debt from interest, in its place I would asses a 10% maintenance fee at time of distribution. The entire system will be systemically biased towards the student, not the processor. 2. I would put in place wage insurance in addition to unemployment. This would give people “gap” insurance so they could take a lower paying job and have some buffer time to get their affairs in order. 3. Tax all income equally, no matter income source, close tax loopholes, and make it harder to hide money out of the country to avoid taxes. What the Fed should do is give the government money to spend. Yes, I know, everyone is afraid it might cause inflation. If inflation get too high, over 5%, then stop. Who got bailed out during the last recession again? Can’t agree more Good luck fighting off their horde of rabid lawyers and lobbyists. They pay politicians more than you, so your interests are no longer represented That includes tech companies too, not just finance. Too big to fail isn’t necessarily a bad idea. If you look at banking prior to Riegle-McNeal in 1994, what we had was “too many to realistically regulate.” The fact that the Fed and OCC had tens of thousands of bank accounting statements to review every quarter instead of a few hundred and four main SIFI banks is part of the reason why the Saving and Loan scandal affected the American ecomomy so profoundly in the late ‘80s. Making an argument against self-dealing by too big to fail institutions is fair, but Congress already fixed that problem in 2012. The most sensible solution to stopping financial crises that I’ve heard from people who (a) know a lot about banking and finance and (b) have worked to safeguard US national security is individual accountability. However, that’s an issue for law enforcement and industry regulators to tackle with criminal sanctions and licensure revocation rather than a problem for the FTC to address with anti-trust. I would vote for you for president I would hope this is something everyone who isn’t getting bribed could get behind. The free market only works without monopolies or oligopolies. It used to be that way. Believe it or not republicans were all for it ... How do you think they became too big to fail in the first place? An environment that offers subsidized credit from a centrally planned issuer benefits the largest businesses and wealthiest entities via leverage, driving consolidation. Does not everyone realize this? I agree in theory but part of the problem is that even with many different/smaller banks, their fates are often linked. If a critical mass of them fail then the whole thing fails. Some of this is not simply a function of size. No. You demand a higher safety standard to fail. Better liquidity, rentability etc. The Achilles heels of the economy Bye-bye Google. Baby boomers need the fed to artificially prop up their real estate and stock prices with socialist policies to create phony wealth or else they won't be able to retire. Capitalism for everyone else. The market isn't doing shit. You've had a decade of low prices placed on financial capital and it hasn't trickled into the real economy because companies have spent the past decade optimising their capital structure rather than investing in the real economy. Respectfully, when did things work? Not trolling, just trying to highlight that there have been mania and crashes since the beginning of capitalism. Volatility is part of the journey. What we’re experiencing is an unknown unknown - a black swan. The market is digesting information and spitting out prices. We can disagree about whether or not those prices are correct or if the market is overreacting but this is what market have done since tulips were a desirable commodity. In the end, capital will eventually flow toward profit making enterprises again and the market will rebound. It just might take a while.... If your retirement is sitting in the market the 'extend and pretend' BS is working exactly like you want. Similar to rent control, for the people getting cheap rent who will never move, it's an amazing deal, but literally everyone else loses. Try convincing Congress of that! [deleted] Do know any good articles or papers etc that explain the negative impacts of the interference of the fed or general gov interference in finance. I would like to learn more Right? If we're really capitalist, let crappy businesses die. That's the idea right? If the stock market tanks and ppl aren’t buying goods and services, pensions won’t be able to pay out and corporate bonds will go bust. This is not a situation you actually want. What free market? What fantasy are you living? Congress is such a gridlocked shit show that when the economy takes a downturn they never enact any fiscal policy so all that is left is the fed but at this point it is useless Can’t do that. If we did, we would be subject to manipulation by other countries who do not do the same thing, due to globalization. Even if other countries let their economies run free as well, we’d become exposed to risks of competitive weakness on a potentially national scale. The government needs to step in and do right by its citizens. In a globalized world this necessarily means mucking with the economy. The trick is how to do it in a way that benefits the most people in your nation... Socalism is bad!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Unless a Billionaire, or Bank, or Large Coroporation is in trouble. THEN ITS THE GOVERNMENTS DUTY!!!!!!!!!! Fuck capitalist. they need to drown in their own blood. The Fed apparently wants us to become Japan. The article proposes a mechanism for the FED to buy corporate bonds as a supply-side support. Theory is that this crisis is a 1-2 punch that effects both supply & demand. On supply side, historically the FED has bought treasury bonds and set interest rates. As u/hereforgangbanging suggests, the idea in this article is to use an ""expanded toolset"" that could include corporate bond buying. Article's recommendation is aspirational and not necessarily likely to happen in practice, though I think it is being discussed. Concept would be to cut out the middleman (large banks who may not have incentive to loan in a crisis) and have FED act directly as lender of last resort to key sectors of the economy. This idea would be separate from demand-side support, which I think is also recommended by many economists. Demand side support would probably come from congress rather than the FED. Examples of demand side support would be forgiving student loans, giving people who make less than a certain income a tax rebate (e.g., the individual tax credits offered in 2008/2009). I guess nobody really read the article... It is about QE that involves buying corporate bonds of the afflicted companies. This is a very good proposal. The issue is that quantitative easing has pumped basically free capital into the market place, forcing inflation returns on bonds and like assets as worthless and driving people to the stock market. When everyone wants a certain asset it is not overvalued. We will not be seeing the stock market of the 80’s through the early 00’s for a long time. Can you talk about it? Feel like ive heard rumblings but no substantive explanation. I dont have a finance background so cant speak to the “why” No one is talking about it? Every fintwit talking head, blogger, and most of the media have been droning about it non-stop since the 2008 recovery The corporate debt bubble is what worries me. The average SP 500 PE ratio is like 22. That’s not very high, historically. Value is suggestive.... If people paying for shit then we Gucci STONKS! Wait they’re bailing out the cruise industry? >the intent of bailing out banks is to keep the flow of credit. That's the intent but that's not reality. What the banks actually do with the increased liquidity is send it to their prop desks (proprietary trading desks) where it flows into the market helping to sustain the asset bubble. Maybe people shouldn't put money into an industry so dumb and tenuous it collapses when someone coughs I feel like the old story of Henry Ford paying his employees enough so they could afford to buy the cars they were building could be applied here. I feel like this is what Yang was trying to warn us about. Unfortunately, theres no way to build capital early in life with our current system, unless you're born into it. So if you wanna go to college, have a car, etc you gotta be in debt. It’s the new slavery This is not true At all Peddle your nonsense elsewhere I like the idea because it cuts out the middleman: Banks. Banks may be hesitant to lend money during hard economic times, which means those companies that need to capitalize now may be unable to find capital. I think the challenge may be that people will see this sort of QE as an industry bailout, which will make us feel it is ""unfair"". That might make it politically unpopular. [deleted] Then all you will have left is the poor... Yes, but how do you implement them effectively and efficiently? Everyone can make a list of things they want the government to accomplish, but people don't realize how hard it is to work out the logistics. Number 3 would be the best, let the poor pay their fair share! [sarcasm] How would you make it harder to hide money out of the country? Sure, they will just “stop”. Just like with MMT when inflation gets too hot just “raise taxes”. This is insane talk. im going to have to agree with you both Umbrella corp disagree Banks first as they caused the Great Recession and it was truly a banking shakeout. They were the ones under ""too big to fail"". If we break up the banks we might be able to get some competition in other areas i.e. funding. After banks, then the ISPs, then everything built on top of it like tech where needed. We need an anti-trust raider like Teddy Roosevelt and some more FDR to create solid markets that are fair and promote competition again. Cliffnotes on Riegle-Mcneal? Capitalism without competition is oligarchy, feudal, fiefdom, aristocracy and ultimately a security threat to not only the nation but personal freedom and privacy. Consolidation leads to stagnation if unchecked. Capitalism to be a fair market should help the low end and regularly chop down the top end. Competition and stakeholders should be factored into the success equation and investment metrics, info on these should be available per company and industry and even trigger auto policy for anti-trust if too concentrated. Though not false competition like the ISPs where they have localized monopolies and collude on limiting competition to price gouge. > It used to be that way. How far they have fallen. Millions of people have defined pension plans. Everytime the market crashes they lose money out of their retirement pot. The companies can either fund it with current employees contributions, in ever diminishing amounts, or they can make sure the fed keeps the market afloat till they get theirs. And like the retards we are, we did this all round the world. Why don't they just YOLO their retirement fund on SPY puts??? /thread [The Great Reversal: How America Gave Up on Free Markets](https://www.amazon.com/Great-Reversal-America-Gave-Markets-ebook/dp/B07THBXS88) is by Thomas Phillipone, professor of finance at NYU. The gist of it is that market power and concentration ratios have increased dramatically over the last 30 years. Cui bono? Shareholders (boomers) in these companies that don't have to compete anymore. Losers? Literally every American. If the economy collapses than all the boomers have to work at Walmart and Target since their investments are gone. It really is hard to argue against the boomers being anything but the single worst generation in American history. I think he's in agreement with you that trickle down economics don't work. He's in fact arguing that the bail outs should not have happened in The first place But don't free markets correct and crash exposing people to their own madness? If government's try to prevent the inevitable downturn, don't they make the inevitable far worse? Good question. I don't know. I mean, yes, ideally the Federal government has to manage its books like the rest of us but I think we're long past that point. If you stopped what is essentially monetizing the debt, well, that could be bad if done in an abrupt fashion. I don't know of any concise articles off the top of my head but it's a regular talking point for a lot of financial columnists. You might scroll back through the archives of NorthmanTrader.com for a trading-centric view of fed interference. The alternative is keeping everything on life support and hamstringing the free market with zombie corps. And, guess what, if pensions were based on bogus math then they need to be realigned with reality. Sorry, sucks for those people but they should have asked questions from the get-go instead of letting the unions and politicians trade favors. He literally is saying there should be no bail outs, banks or otherwise. That's the free market This. Japan has been fighting deflation for thirty years. Do you know how many corporations have taken advantage of the artificial real-negative interest rate environment over the past 10+ years? They issued debt to finance equity buybacks. And now you suggest we should buy this very equity-buying debt so they can just issue more? It would be sheer insanity and the height of economic / financial irresponsibility. Why? Why is the fed involve here at all? There should be no QE. If corporations are unable or unwilling to realize risk tolerance you want the fed to bail them out? The Fed actually needs to tighten and remove six trillion from their balance sheet. So if I personally were to have 20K in credit card debt and I borrowed (bonds) 50K to pay it off, didn’t pay my loan off and instead spent it on a new car (buybacks), and you’re expecting the fed, or my bank, to now give me 100K to Ponzi my debt even further? In very simple terms... Low interest rates allow businesses to get into debt. Business use debt to buy back their stocks, or large investment firms use debt to take large positions. Alternatively, business use debt to fund revenue generation and cash flow (which isn't such a bad thing), and they are able to use that model to convince others to buy equity in their company. Those others may also be debt spending. Shares of a company obey the laws of supply and demand. As equity is purchased, less shares are on the market, which can ""inflate"" the price of shares even though no real new value has been created. Because capital is so cheap, it’s really easy to just buy things that go up instead of focusing on the fundamentals of whatever that asset is based on. Whenever value loses its basis, volatility increases. Volatility can go either way, so it could go up crazy fast, and then crash just as fast. Which is what a bubble is. For a recent example, take Tesla. The value of that stock is clearly not entirely based on the performance of the company. They’ve had like 3 positive quarters ever, but look at their stock prices over the course of this year. That’s what the housing bubble was in 08. It was super easy to get a loan and pay for it, that values kept getting bid up and up and up, until eventually the lenders couldn’t justify it anymore. When that happens across the country at the same time, the market collapses and values plummet overnight. In addition to the below, because rates are so low, stashing cash in a bank becomes worse for most normal people. So they plug their savings into the market not because the company is worth that much, but because the alternative option of saving has been gutted so hard. Personally I don't think people should be severely punished for wanting to save and it calls the question whether central banks should be given this much power. I think improving the access and cost of debt to normal people for non stock-market things would help alot. For instance reducing interest on student loans, small business loans, car loans, mortgages by skipping out the middlemen that is banks and finance companies. The Fed acts like a public bank to private banks and finance firms by offering ultra cheap cash and hoping they would pass it down to the consumer. That is wishful thinking. Instead why not be a public bank to the people as well? Actual finance background here... Think about it this way, if you had a company expected to make a certain amount of money over the next 30 years and pay a given amount to you in dividends, how much would you pay now given there is some risk? The answer has to reflect the alternative return you would get from investing in risk-free (or nearly) assets like Treasury bonds. The more you pay up front for this company's stock, the lower return you will expect based on the dividends you forecasted earlier. Now, everyone is willing to pay much more for risky assets because non-risky assets pay almost nothing (eg 0.5% return for 10 year Treasury bonds). Even with the nearly 20% decline in stocks, the PE ratio of the S&P 500 (the price multiple investors are willing to pay for a company’s earnings) is still above 20x based on expected earnings. Historically, that multiple has been closer to 15x. Stocks are still fully valued despite the recent decline. Stocks are overvalued right now bc the feds have been pumping more money into the American market than china. Stocks are overvalued bc “internet companies” dont have to report revenue and users the same way as old companies that provide physical assets or services. Stocks are overvalued right now because “internet companies” raise more money privately than ever before allowing only .01% of the population to invest and once public retail investors keep the price afloat. Stocks are overvalued right bow because legal measures haven’t been rewritten to provide quality fines for companies breaking the law and consumers trust allowing large companies to do literally whatever they want and their lawyers retainer is cheaper or a tad bit more expensive than the fines written in current law. There are 20 more reasons i can provide but i am at work lol. Crikey, is the generation that says Gucci old enough to invest now? Nothing official from congress but Trump announced that he is proposing bailouts for the travel industries including airlines and cruise. Well there are varying opinions about the effectiveness of bailouts in 2008. There is no doubt that the bank bailout helped the market. However, since banks are not socialized, they cannot be forced to loan out the money, and in fact most banks did not lend out much of the bailout money during the Great Recession and mostly sat on it. However, the bailout had two positive impacts. First, it re-instilled faith that the government was not going to let the big boys fail which (although you could argue ideologically they should have failed) practically would have sent enormous ripples through the economy. Second, it gave those big banks a deeper purse should they start having liquidity issues. You do realize US.banks are in the best shape they’ve ever been. They don’t even almost need a bailout. Very capitalized. Most banks don’t have prop desks anymore. The volker rule banned them until trump removed it, but most banks haven’t brought them back. Isnt that how society should work on a basic level? Let's bring it to the most extrmely basic terms: I'm a naked caveman ancestor who has absolutely nothing and I want to join your tribe. I join and you give me clothes, a hut, and tools to start contributing to your community. Do I not owe your tribe, for what you've just given me? I should start out in debt to the tribe. Is it really that new? Kinda disrespectful to actual slaves now and in the past, don’t you think? How’s the smartphone or laptop with which you commented doing for you at the moment? Fuck the Fed & big banks! They’re both evil anyway. You probably believe Epstein killed himself. Poor and satisfied 1. Can be done through executive order a with a SQL query followed by a statement run. It could be developed and tested in under a month. 2. Will have to legislated, but we can model it off Germany. This would require a new system/dept to run, so give it a year. 3. Legislation and developer time. About a year to code, test, deploy. Put dat shit on the BLOCKCHAIN, brutha! A simplified tax code for starters, more stringent reporting requirements when moving money over seas with a tax burden, more resources for and cooperation between agencies tasked with investigating these types of crimes, substantial penalties for anyone caught. We three agree >Banks caused the Great Recession It's exhausting how many people watch the big short / CNN and then think they understand the financial crisis. With a healthy dose of ""eat the rich."" Ugh. Some comments on tech. Like electricity, there are a limited number of companies who can bring physical wiring into your home. Even so, many neighborhoods have 2 options and a few have 3 (cable company, former telephone company, and a few neighborhoods have fiber optic cables laid either by the power company or Google). We have a few 5G wireless startups as well for home Internet and dish, but the speeds are much slower, and it’s unreliable. We had chosen the former phone company option. About 2 1/2 years ago, the former phone company has an outage in their data center, leaving half of our 7 million person metro area without Internet for 2 days! All these homes terminate into switches in buildings less than 5 miles from most homes in cities. The switches in these buildings “could” be programmed to have a primary and a backup network to fail over to. We do this in large data centers for big businesses all the time. Yet they don’t arguing “cost issues”. I switched to the cable provider about a month later. At least I had a choice. Some neighborhoods, like my in-laws only have a single choice, as the phone company still only provides “dsl” which effectively is dialup service! In our state, the power companies were “deregulated” meaning that the power company was split into a wiring service company, and the power delivery company. The wiring company is a monopoly and heavily regulated by the state. They do the wiring and meters for residential and small companies. You choose your power delivery company from a menu of choices who put the amount of power into the grid equal to your consumption. I would like to see the ISPs do the same. One company handles the wiring, terminating to a switch where you chose your Internet service company. I too am bullish on Roosevelts Some comments on banks. My father was a banker, and in his time commercial banking (savings and checking/debit card accounts, loans) were split from investment banking like brokerages. Prior to the 1990’s, commercial banks were not allowed to operate across state lines. Laws were passed during the Reagan and Bush administration that allowed both to occur. First banks were allowed to compete across state lines. This caused a huge wave of mergers and ultimately caused my dad to decide to retire in his mid-50’s. As he would get a new job or start a bank, another company would acquire it and he was out of a job. He changed jobs 5 times in 10 years because of this. His last real job was as a contractor with FDIC cleaning up failed banks after the 1987 crash, the cleanups of toxic assets went into the early 1990’s. This allowed the mergers into the giant chains you see today. Then, the government allowed commercial banks and investment banks to merge. This led to things like JP Morgan Chase and Bank of America who owns Merrill Lynch. It probably is easier for the government to monitor a few large banks than a whole bunch of small ones, but I would argue that we are seeing the “end of capitalism” in this country. We will be left with a few very large companies who effectively are “friends of the government”. It’s the same model with the Oligarchies that Russia has. And the result will be authoritarian rule for those who dissent. [deleted] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riegle-Neal_Interstate_Banking_and_Branching_Efficiency_Act_of_1994 I'm going to do my best to summarize: I think the argument is there were too many small regional financial institutions in the 80s, all of which required oversight at the Fed, which overwhelmed the regulatory system and it couldn't efficiently operate. Riegle-Neal facilitated consolidation of banks both between multiple states, and/or between/with foreign banks. Loosening regulatory rules on banks operating in multiple states consolidated the system. Since then, we can better understand the banking system's performance and more effectively regulate it. My wife is part of a teachers union in a state that is extremely well funded. I wondered why the numbers were good even in the last recession. Come to find out they own land everywhere. Doesn't appreciate as fast, but also doesnt act like a roller coster. Because all boomers have seen the 11-year 🐂 market wipe out anyone using a 🌈🐻 strategy. 🤣🤣 Where the fuck you think we been working? Are you saying that if government didn't use their levers that stabilize cycles the cycles would be better? Sounds like bullshit. Why do you think everything is on life support? What data or information backs that up? Real value and wealth have been created in the last 10 years. There’s an argument to make that the economy is corrupted, since income inequality has led to stark disparaties in how the richest live vs. the poorest. Also, the free market is a fucking bloodbath that inhibits progress and growth (like crabs in a bucket). Pensions were underfunded because politicians allowed corporations to use funny math to reduce their required contributions, and because DA's and the feds did not prosecute people who raided those funds. This is not on the workers or the unions, when the government does not protect your interests what are your options? How will the farmers be able to feed their families if they can't afford to go to the store? Sorry, can you explain what you mean? I’m not following this conversation. Not sure I understand your or the above commenter's point. Expansionary monetary policy results in excessive inflation (if too aggressive), not deflation. Japan's problem is a demographic and economic issue that led to deflation, which the central bank has been trying to counteract. We all liked the buybacks, no? Read ""Manias, Panics and Crashes"". In a nutshell - in a crises situation there should be a lender of last resort, providing large enough liquidity to weather the storm. So I get the P/E ratio is way above whats normal but arent there other factors that go into stock price (outside of public opinion)? You're so edgy :) >it re-instilled faith that the government was not going to let the big boys fail Too big too fail = socialism for the rich. This was a terrible idea and only makes big banks behave more irresponsibly as there are no repercussions. [deleted] They control the money supply. Capital is meaningless in this context. The Volcker rule has not been removed. Slavery is a word with a definition that literally means, and can be compared, to what is going on with the middle class. Having to finance everything and having to depend on a social and economic system that holds lower class citizens down and also has protection from the government, can definitely be compared to slavery. The definition of slavery applies to what happens to ""slaves"" all over the world which is very unfortunate and I'm sure this person would agree. This person even put the word ""new"" to explain there was a slight difference. So it's not disrespectful at all. You just seem like the type who likes to hear themselves talk. Red herring You make an excellent point. Take an upvote. Good for you! 👍 enjoy wildcat banking, it's great and totally doesn't cause crashes or panics. That all started with the fed anyway Cheers If the poor were satisfied, why are they so hungry for the rich? >It's exhausting how many people watch the big short / CNN and then think they understand the financial crisis. Nice ad hominem, you are shadowboxing against a strawman that isn't there and you are winning for the banks. Keep fighting for those big banks, they got your back. Seems like you have only seen the Big Short yourself. During the Great Recession, the banks were given money specifically to help mortgagers underwater and they kept it or didn't loan and dragged their feet which allowed them to grab up foreclosed housing, what this article is about. They reigned in the [GSEs to public companies now from private](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_takeover_of_Fannie_Mae_and_Freddie_Mac). Homeowners got pummeled as well as [middle class lost 40% of their net worth](https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/12/the-recessions-toll-how-middle-class-wealth-collapsed-to-a-40-year-low/265743/) while wealth got multiples. Still waiting to what happens to the ""too big to fail"" banks... hopefully some anti-trust and regulation.. what's that? They de-regulated them more? And now what are they doing? ...oh nothing, they just get to [start playing repo games now they are too big](https://www.marketwatch.com/story/shadow-banks-could-be-playing-role-in-repo-market-drama-economist-says-2019-09-26)? Sounds like that will work out great rewarding the raiders. Punish all but the raiders and you get raiders. Socialize the losses, privatize the gains. In all this [middle class decimated](https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/12/the-recessions-toll-how-middle-class-wealth-collapsed-to-a-40-year-low/265743/)... but yeah, feel bad for the banks... except fuck those [small and medium banks not in the ""too big to fail"" club](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bank_failures_in_the_United_States_(2008%E2%80%93present)) that rigged and engineered the crash and banking shakeout. They will do another shakeout and probably are in the process of one now. Those big banks I am sure will be on your side now that they got a champion in you. HARP or HAMP specifically they botched, the banks held the money and power to provide what tax dollars were given to do, bail out homeowners like the banks were. Both were part of TARP under the [Homeowners Affordability and Stability Plan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeowners_Affordability_and_Stability_Plan) >The **Making Home Affordable** program of the [United States Treasury](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Treasury) was launched in 2009 as part of the [Troubled Asset Relief Program](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubled_Asset_Relief_Program). The main activity under MHA is the **Home Affordable Modification Program** The problem again was relied on banks to facilitate it, they got greedy. My bit was about how banks were the ones helped and didn't hold up their bargain. Why the middle man as the ""too big to fail"" banks who just caused the recession, why would they not be in self-preservation mode over homeowners. The money should have gone directly to homeowners. [HARP](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Affordable_Refinance_Program) was actually a good program to help home owners not just the banks, banks still got greedy. [HAMP](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_Home_Affordable) was actually a good program, again not used right by the banks. We relied on banks to facilitate the money as a middleman, they weren't effective nor did it benefit them to be effective. Incentives weren't aligned to the consumer/homeowner they were aligned to banks. >The **Homeowners Affordability and Stability Plan** is a U.S. program announced on February 18, 2009 by U.S. President Barack Obama. According to the US Treasury Department, it is a $75 billion program to help up to nine million homeowners avoid foreclosure, which was supplemented by $200 billion in additional funding for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to purchase and more easily refinance mortgages. The plan is funded mostly by the [Housing and Economic Recovery Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_and_Economic_Recovery_Act). **It uses cost sharing and incentives to encourage lenders to reduce homeowner's monthly payments to 31 percent of their gross monthly income. Under the program, a lender would be responsible for reducing total monthly mortgage payments (**[**PITI**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PITI)**) to no more than 38 percent of the borrower’s income, with the government sharing the cost to further reduce the payment to 31 percent. The plan also involves potentially forgiving or deferring a portion of the borrower’s mortgage balance.** **Mortgage servicers** **will receive incentives to modify loans and to help the homeowner stay current, though participation by lenders is voluntary** The problem is it [wasn't pushed or used, relied on banks to facilitate](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/business/wp/2016/12/30/after-helping-a-fraction-of-homeowners-expected-obamas-foreclosure-prevention-program-is-finally-ending/) and the damage was done. What you don't do is give banks a big load of money and say please disperse it.. they didn't. Most people were working, didn't know about the program, thought it was a scam or didn't have time to actually reconfigure their loan as trust was at an all time low for banking. It would have just been easier to pay things down, *directly*. If I am giving you a bonus or assistance, should I give it to a middle man third party to facilitate to disperse as they see fit or keep it (the same middle man that just robbed you previously), or to you directly, the one that needs it? Everyone was guilty at different levels. Banks being the most egregious and paid minimal fines while expanding their market share in the engineered [Great Banking Shakeout of 2008-present](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bank_failures_in_the_United_States_(2008%E2%80%93present)) . Again everyone paid a real price but the banks. Financial sector appeases the banks because in America you are trained to punch down. I can't blame you, it is a Pavlovian response now engrained in financial culture. The Great Recession was really a [banking shakeout](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bank_failures_in_the_United_States_(2008%E2%80%93present)). Might not have happened if the big investment/servicing banks weren't as big. They all participated in the pump and dump. They consolidated even more after their engineered shakeout. They did not correctly use funds to help mortgagers and exacerbated the credit crunch after the housing bubble popped. Now they are trying to break the repo markets. Any bank ""too big to fail"" should be broken up. This is a national security issue at this point. We have banks bullying that are so big they are demanding higher leverage ratios. This is pretty much the next credit crunch timebomb being set. The Fed can't stop doing this now, once money and budget is available, it is used, if pulled, it will cause a crunch. These games will cause a [liquidity crunch and a credit crisis and you can see from this quote that banks are doing it on purpose to blow out Great Recession regulations put in place](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-06/why-the-u-s-repo-market-blew-up-and-how-to-fix-it-quicktake). >What does Dimon say happened? He says that rules adopted since the 2008 financial crisis stake too many claims on bank reserves -- their spare cash -- making it hard to put them to more-profitable use. In an October [earnings call](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/terminal/PZF4BZGJCD2Z), Dimon said he believed that the cash the bank had at the central bank was earmarked for meeting those new regulatory requirements. As a result, **it couldn’t be plowed into the repo market, though “we’d have been happy to do it,” he said, adding that he believed a lot of his peers were in a similar position.** Break them up. Banking doesn't have to be so consolidated, for economic security you really need distributed risk not concentrated risk and single points of failure. We only have [5 really big banks now](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_banks_in_the_United_States). Just going by how you debate with digs and ad hominems, I can tell you are biased and we are gonna have to agree to disagree. Good day. You can't compare America to a low population petroeconomy Even just a threat or a breakup or two work to create competition and companies worried about liability will change and invest differently, more towards competition. Take the Microsoft anti-trust cases in the 90s, simply the threat and slowing down of Microsoft led to Google, Apple, Amazon, linux, other browsers, internet companies, other content companies etc. Competition flourished after the mere threat and slowing down of the big fish. We all benefitted, even Microsoft ultimately. The problem is when a monopoly is abusing their position too greatly. Microsoft was abusing their monopoly which they built. It helped for a while, getting everyone on PCs and online, but eventually they used it to stifle competition too great. Same with AT&T and MaBell back in the 70s, great advancements in software at BellLabs (all modern apps still built with C/C++ underneath) and telephone widely installed, but they got greedy. For a moment monopolies might be ok, but when they start abusing it is when you have to break them up. Right now the two most abusive industries are big banks and ISPs, both are using their positions to shakeout competition too greatly. They are also both single points of failure as monopolies make product/engineering/research and development departments slow down due to underfunding, and the power goes to maintaining the monopoly in the business/marketing area. The product then stagnates and if the company is too big everyone loses out, including them. Thanks, makes sense It’s not the the numbers were good it’s that they aren’t as transparent as stocks where you can get a calculation instantly. This is also why private equity is attractive to pensions I wonder what will happen to land value if no one has money to buy it when they want to liquidate to make payments. 🤔 Winter is coming Idk if your an actual boomer born in the 50s I presume retirement and making terrible memes about millennials The problem is you can’t drop money from helicopters bailing out the average person. It’s unfair, but the average person doesn’t have the ability to move the needle. The big banks do. If we prop big banks up in a crisis, then it works. Very well in fact as we avoided a Great Depression in 2009. It isn’t fair, but that’s the way it is. Our financial system is the envy of the world. They may not admit it, but there is a reason why, everyone across the globe, holds dollars. It’s pretty damn safe vs. the alternatives. In fact, if our system wasn’t the envy of the world, then we couldn’t run trillion dollar deficits almost interest free. The problem isn’t the banks. They work well. The problem is individuals not being accountable for taking risks, they know damn well aren’t acceptable, and leaving the system holding the bag. Powerful people not facing the same consequences, of the average person, is not a symptom of capitalism. It’s a symptom of humanity. Finance isn’t how we fix that. Check our Chernobyl. Same shit; different system. YES. Not bullshit. Levers amplify. They do not stabilize. There are plenty of public unions in the same situation. Whose fault is it if the *public union* promised its members huge pension packages based on BS like eternal 8% CAG. Japan has no growth. It is deflating and deflation is hard to fight. If prices keep going down, then people are encouraged to hoard cash and not create activity. If interest is so low that time has no value. The penalty to borrowing money and failing is nothing. Money gets spent and misallocated. Opportunities are not created. For the last 3 decades japan is poorer, and worse off. Real estate is cheaper now than in 1990. The BOJ owns most of the ETFs on their stock market. It's an economic disaster. The BOJ’s policies have helped forestall or halt any of the various necessary structural economic reforms that people identified back in the mid-1990s. But these reforms were going to be the end of Japan Inc and the Japanese banking mega banks and thus were politically untouchable. The BOJs actions have been incredibly anti-reform, anti-competitive and pro status quo and frankly haven’t done anything to address Japanese demographics, labor / retail market competitiveness or help reform its ridiculous “work” (read: face time) culture that has actually suppressed birth rates and family formation. The BOJ has also backed Japan into a debt hole that will dwarf the previous structural problems. People need to wake up and realize that CB policies are a giant part of the problem and not the solution. Are you being sarcastic? So many made the argument that corporations could manage their capital structure as they wished - and use debt to buy back equity if they wanted. The only problem was and is that the whole interest rate environment was being suppressed at near- at- or below zero by central banks in order to initially recapitalize the banking/finance sector and later to try to promote a ""wealth-effect"" growth policy by pushing investors into riskier asset tiers. Now all of these corporations that essentially paid management - and those investors that sold pumped up stock (via debt financed buyback programs) are holding debt loads that aren't productive and many with buybacks that are underwater. It was an economic waste that was only supported via a combination of management/investor greed/short-sightedness and facilitated by failed central bank policies that directly helped transfer equity wealth to a select few via cheap money. Instead the Fed wasted 10 years spoiling irresponsible corporate borrowers who mostly turned around and used debt to buy back stock. But now we need them to again bailout the same bad actors yet a third time? Most investors justify the elevated multiples because interest rates are so low. That means safer investments like bonds yield so little that the risk of buying a stock, even at an elevated price, is worth it. A “normal” PEs varies greatly by industry and you’ll see fast growing industries, and in particular, a fast growing company in a fast growing industry, have extremely high PEs. As a side note, a lot of start ups or companies like Uber don’t even have PEs because there is no E (earnings). Extremely high PEs (60+) occur because the stock price represents the value of the company’s future earnings, not just what the company is earning today. I agree elevated PEs are somewhat justified in a low yield world. That doesn’t mean there’s less risk though. If risk arises in the economy that create more uncertainty about future growth prospects (like the coronavirus) valuations should move lower because the world is no longer as certain and investors need to be compensated for higher risk. Company profits are also likely to decline sharply in the coming quarters so the E in the PE will decline, which should also put downward pressure on stocks. No, I have to keep up. I can’t look down on people who say that if it isn’t just middle schoolers anymore. I'm not gonna say it was a terrible idea because the bleeding had to be stopped and stepping in to support the big banks was the easiest way to address it, but once the danger had passed, more should have been done to regulate the big banks to prevent future over-exposure. It was specifically sup-prime loans for mortgages. The intent of the bailout was to loosen up the credit freeze to businesses. By keeping businesses going, there is employment and the flow of liquidity. Not even sure what you’re talking about. I’m talking about bank bailouts. They don’t need one. What are you going on about? Because in bailouts capitalization means everything. Thanks. I see your point too. Have a good one. There are options other than just the big banks you know that right..? Cause they’re poor I'm promoting competition and market equilibrium - aka efficiency and optimal outcomes. No one has fought more for big banks than Elizabeth Warren, despite claiming the opposite to farm votes. Virtue signalling /= good policy. big oof. i respect the amount of time it took to compile this list of commentary and sources just to say, essentially, ""your comment in vague and short sighted to the greater issue at hand"" That's a fair critique. I'd say US banks being more integrated in the world banking system is probably a better critique - I mean that's the way I would go - but I was just saying it's something to consider. The above guy stated he wanted competition - there honestly is a lot of banking competition in the US already so that doesn't seem to be the solution. That's fair about monopolies - I agree they cause problems and I think we should consider where the current law is on them right now... I guess my thing is that (and I'm no expert on the banking sector - I focus on other ones more) the banking sector seems different. Like I don't see a ton of monopoly failures in banks - so I'm curious what you think they are? Other than a few unfriendly consumer practices (especially for poorer clientele like overdraft, etc.) for the most part it seems to be a pretty competitive space to me. Your original comment seems to be more worried about systemic risk from their size and scope - I'm not sure that's the same thing as market failure from monopolies. So that's why I questioned why more competition is necessarily the answer. Now I'm not a huge fan of regulation but it seems like a healthy dose that is tuned properly has been ok for banks. If we got to that point, it would mean there are way worse problems than some pensions to deal with. It would probably require something that the great depression for that to be even plausible. Land is something that is very finite. Some boomers still working. This one included. And I was born in early 60s,not 50s. No terrible memes about millennials, but seems millennials get a kick out of boomer memes. Um if dropped the money from helicopters to average person that would definitely help when a demand shock like in 2008 happened. Its weird for me to listen to a person blame the average guy when moral hazards in banking are so perverse. We know that the 2008 crisis didn't start from real economy, it was finance that started it. It was ratings agencies disgusting practices, it was banks predatory and risky behavior. People just went along. And at the end of the day they suffered the most, while banks got a slap on the wrist. We need to bail out the real economy now. Except they don't you dummy. This is macroeconomics 101. Government automatic stabilizers help cool off the economy or heat it back up when needed. Pension fund managers have been incentivized to minimize member contributions and paint the peachiest performance picture possible. And guess what? Our beloved policy makers have supported their optimistic ""never going to return less than 8%"" return rate via interest rate suppression and ridiculous asset purchases that has introduced a ton of new debt into the system. And now, all of the sudden people are surprised that these ""free"" financial markets aren't going up everyday thanks to real risks that can't be ""solved"" with zero/negative rates and tons of new debt. Go figure. I don’t think it’s solely capital allocation. China took manufacturing away from them during the past 30 years and their demography is the oldest in the world. There’s not enough young population to consumer their way out of deflation. I thought Japan purposefully built a ton of housing and drove the prices down to help make it affordable for everyone? Japan has little to no homelessness, and a lot of it has to do with cheap housing options. [deleted] >If interest is so low that time has no value. The penalty to borrowing money and failing is nothing. Money gets spent and misallocated. Opportunities are not created. For the last 3 decades japan is poorer, and worse off. On paper. Japan has universal healthcare, lower crime, higher life expectancy, lower unemployment, and a lower retirement age than the U.S. it's not a Utopia (many problems such as overwork, overpopulation, low birth rate, high suicide), but those have nothing to do with the BOJ or Japanese economic conditions. US is an economic and social disaster. Thank you for explaining. Glass steagall. We shouldn’t have let the banks continue to invest our depositors money. They have a fundamental conflict of interest - make money —> protect depositors money. The easiest way to make money? Take greater risk with depositors money. If they don’t need a bailout why is the fed pouring billions into the repo market? Capitalization means nothing when the central bank is a privately owned consortium run by the big banks. They can create money ad nauseum, it doesn't fix the structural problems in the economy created by regulatory capture. When the fox guards the henhouse, its going to be a slaughter. Yep, so very many, people can use credit unions et al. That's not really my point though. That's a different issue than the role the large institutions play in lending to large corporates here in the US, its different than the role the primary dealers play in treasury auctions and trading, etc These are not as rife for substitution, and they are still ""essential plumbing"" If you're referring to crypto/blockchain, check out what Reiksbank is doing and mutterings out of ECB for a two tier system Exactly >I'm promoting competition and market equilibrium - aka efficiency and optimal outcomes. No one has fought more for big banks than Elizabeth Warren, despite claiming the opposite to farm votes. Oh really, and the banks love Elizabeth Warren for the CFPB and regulations? Usually the ones the banks hate are the good guys. The [TARP program](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubled_Asset_Relief_Program) which the banks used to do this banking shakeout and mortgage shakeout were approved and in place before Obama. TARP was passed October 3, 2008 during the George W Bush administration, Obama came into office in Jan 2009. The TARP program was supposed to provide banking relief so that they could help people *NOT foreclose* and provide relief, what happened though was that banks *took the money*, stopped loaning which led to a credit crunch and then they waited until everyone had to foreclose and history was written. Lots of these loans had timebombs that were hidden deep in the mortgage that non-financial detailed people didn't know about and the CPB and Fannie/Freddie were regulated to not allow that to happen again, but it was already a timebomb set. The problem is the program trusted banks, you *never fucking trust banks*. A better program would have to just paid off people's loans, that would be both a consumer and bank bailout, everyone gets their money and it wouldn't have been a long drawn out credit crunch, but that was designed as such by the banks as a banking shakeout and it cheapened so many assets that the greed overtook stakeholder market needs. Next time ""too big to fail"" should mean time for anti-trust breakup, not handouts of money that they were supposed to loan but didn't. Again I'll repeat, you never *fucking trust the banks*... right now they are trying to get another credit crunch lever in the repo market, they don't care. We need an anti-trust raider like Teddy Roosevelt to break up these monopolies/oligopolies and ""too big to fail"" banks. We needed more like an FDR during the Great Recession and we got the opposite, programs that helped the banks that caused this not the people that got taken. During the Great Depression there were policies to help all people but mostly lower/middle and workers, again the Great Recession was the opposite, we helped the banking shakeout that made everything worse. Apparently you trust the banks, good luck to you! >big oof. i respect the amount of time it took to compile this list of commentary and sources just to say, essentially, ""your comment in vague and short sighted to the greater issue at hand"" Ok vague response man with the vague ""greater issue at hand"" that is too lazy to even capitalize comments. Let's just say we agree to disagree. The Great Recession was really a [banking shakeout](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bank_failures_in_the_United_States_(2008%E2%80%93present)). Might not have happened if the big investment/servicing banks weren't as big. They all participated in the pump and dump. They consolidated even more after their engineered shakeout. They did not correctly use funds to help mortgagers and exacerbated the credit crunch after the housing bubble popped. Now they are trying to break the repo markets. Any bank ""too big to fail"" should be broken up. This is a national security issue at this point. We have banks bullying that are so big they are demanding higher leverage ratios. This is pretty much the next credit crunch timebomb being set. The Fed can't stop doing this now, once money and budget is available, it is used, if pulled, it will cause a crunch. These games will cause a [liquidity crunch and a credit crisis and you can see from this quote that banks are doing it on purpose to blow out Great Recession regulations put in place](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-06/why-the-u-s-repo-market-blew-up-and-how-to-fix-it-quicktake). >What does Dimon say happened? He says that rules adopted since the 2008 financial crisis stake too many claims on bank reserves -- their spare cash -- making it hard to put them to more-profitable use. In an October [earnings call](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/terminal/PZF4BZGJCD2Z), Dimon said he believed that the cash the bank had at the central bank was earmarked for meeting those new regulatory requirements. As a result, **it couldn’t be plowed into the repo market, though “we’d have been happy to do it,” he said, adding that he believed a lot of his peers were in a similar position.** Break them up. Banking doesn't have to be so consolidated, for economic security you really need distributed risk not concentrated risk and single points of failure. We only have [5 really big banks now](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_banks_in_the_United_States). For a pension plan to service its obligations, its assets need to appreciate in real dollars faster than (or at least as fast as) the obligations are growing. It then liquidates assets or makes a financial instrument out of future earnings (ie anticipated appreciation) to pay out. This only works for your wife's pension if all land in its holdings is guaranteed to be a scarce resource that appreciates faster than its obligations (very unlikely). Now, I'm not going to take you at your word that the pension relies mostly on real estate and land holdings to service their debt. I imagine they've done well because real estate and land is just part of their portfolio, and they were able to navigate the recession well with other investments, including bonds and private equity. Well, I found these funny little crystals up in the arctic circle... Yeah.. it's a whole zoo of fiduciary irresponsibility and outright corruption. But assuming blue-skies returns became so normalized it basically *was* the norm. And now some of them are so underwater that if they assume a, gasp, 4% rate of return the whole thing blows up. Eventually the chickens come home to roost. I don't know if what's happening now is beginning of the great reckoning or whether they can push it off another cycle. Plus their culture is pretty stagnant and unwilling to change. Only 4% of the full time working citizenry is foreign born. The Tokugawa era appears to have retained its roots for centuries. It did indeed. That comment is very far off in many ways. > The reason why they want inflation is because inflation monetizes government debt. This and it facilitates credit creation. [deleted] Wow. You do know they hold $500 billion in liquid assets 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 EACH lol Which bank shares were bought in the course of the Fed’s repo facility? 🤔 The central bank doesn’t need a bailout they make the money. That’s like saying oh no the US is going to default. Moron. If the US defaults you’ll have MUCH bigger problems than money. Why do you think TREASURIES are the risk free asset? Yeah. Pretty much all US stocks will go to $0. Money will be worthless. So again... what are you going on about? No US bank needs a bailout. I know, I’m a professional investor. good lord, no i don't ""trust the banks."" You're barking up the wrong tree. I trust incentives, costs, and stimuli. These are the forces that drive behavior. Moralization is grandstanding, but more importantly, it is unproductive. I'd like to make the world a better place, and reforming failed institutional structures is something i at least marginally care about. I have no time for moralization - it obfuscates the interests of privileged parties. Warren is the perfect congressional member for the banks - she is loud, her campaign is based on ""gotcha"" talking points that appeal to elite coastal culture and institutions, and everyone ""knows"" she HATES the banks. Maybe she does, i don't know or care. Meanwhile, her policies are fantastic for the biggest banks - regional banks struggle to compete in compliance costs relative to larger banks, many liquidity and funding requirements are relatively more expensive for these smaller banks, generally make large banks marginally more competitive. Now the biggest banks have a powerful advocate on their side, and these policies that help them are *beyond reproach* from any powerful community, protected by warren's consistent virtue signaling. All this in the backdrop of a low interest rate environment (which is institutional and decades-old), and the largest banks have easy access to capital to gobble up all the smaller, struggling banks, and some IB analyst gets to write about ""acquisitional synergies due to increased capital efficiency"" with the larger bank. [And so, the big banks grew](http://2oqz471sa19h3vbwa53m33yj-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/bank-consolidation.jpg). It's not like these growing aspects of income or wealth inequality, whether it is personal or corporate, just appear out of nowhere. We use monopolistic institutions to promote them to other people, often with the implication of ""or else"" at the end of it. And i don't want no part of that. **TLDR** no, i don't trust the banks. And i don't trust politicians who affect to trade on behalf of the public good. I view the banks the same way that i view elizabeth warren - they are actors responding to incentives. But i want to make the world a better place, so i typically do not side with warren, who i believe is counterproductive noise. and yes, i agree that individual payments would have been better than bank bailouts, or at least some quantified ratio. But hey, that's the point of a monopolistic government - to favor some parties over others. ... .... so are you just confrontational about every reply you get? I've made 1 comment on 2 of yours, and you sound oblivious on both of them that i enjoyed what you had to say..but now im thinking youre kind of an ass? but.. as you like to say on every comment..lets just say we agree to disagree now. good job! Did you know that some land can be rented or leased, providing revenue? Crazy huh? I understood that reference. The real problem is that the people that actually pointed out this risk and suggested that the projected return rate should be lower (and contributions should be higher) were literally told to bugger off. The whole ""historic market return rate"" has been shrouded in incredibly anti-competitive/market supportive policy that has used the 30-year bond bull market and all sorts of creative policy post GFC to keep things going. The problem today is that the Coronavirus and the Russian/Saudi oil fight can't be addressed or fixed with lower rates or QE. But we are so addicted and normalized to policy makers coming to our rescue that people can't even imagine another scenario... you know, the one where you bear actual risk. Yeah that's all just very wrong. I think you got downvoted for using emojis, if you're curious. money in search of a bubble https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/the-fed-has-pumped-%24500-billion-into-the-repo-market.-where-does-it-end-2020-01-20 USTs are not actually risk less. 30 day FFRs are Look at USTs, FFR, repo, IOER during a liquidity crunch a la last Sept/Oct You also can't read. >i don't trust the banks. And i don't trust politicians who affect to trade on behalf of the public good. I view the banks the same way that i view elizabeth warren - they are actors responding to incentives. But i want to make the world a better place, so i typically do not side with warren, who i believe is counterproductive noise. Noise like [taking on Jamie Dimon directly and in the aims of making a more competitive market that is fair capitalism for the middle class, the engine of a consumer economy](https://www.marketwatch.com/story/capitalist-elizabeth-warren-on-whats-wrong-with-america-rich-guys-who-dont-want-to-pay-taxes-call-the-shots-2019-12-16)? Warren has [taken on Dimon](https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/05/jamie-dimon-says-sen-elizabeth-warren-vilifies-successful-people.html) and Bloomberg as well as Bushes, Trump and others. Isn't that what you want, someone taking on the bigs? They hate her like they hated FDR, someone that understand their game and looking to make it a more competitive fair market. The market and capitalism is wonderful when it stays competitive, best system available today, but disaster capitalists, predatory capitalists and big banks are turning it into fascism or at minimum oligarchy/monopolistic collusion. [Warren will probably be Sec of Treasury](https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/joe-biden-campaign-jamie-dimon-elizabeth-warren-for-treasury-secretary/) and it will be a Teddy/FDR type of fiscal policy. She has earned it with the CFPB during the Great Recession that defused the mortgage balloon bombs that eventually setup the credit crunch engineered by the banks. Remember, Teddy and FDR were wealth that fought other wealth for a fair market, that is really the only way it can be done. Elizabeth Warren has been in banking and knows the games, that is why they are more scared of her than anyone else. That is why she deserves to be the regulator. What made the Roosevelt's unique was that [they were from mega wealth, but they created a market and system that all classes benefitted from. Other wealth hated them](https://rooseveltinstitute.org/how-fdr-took-forces-wealth-and-power/). ([Bush family hate FDR with a passion for the Trading With The Enemy tag](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar)) FDR/Teddy put in more safety nets and the market made a great investable area for the investor class. To this day Social Security and the SEC still stand and they were just that, investments in the country and part of fair capitalism instead of Gilded Age type predatory capitalism. >As the New Deal took hold, and as FDR prepared to run for re-election in 1936, the Liberty League launched a major effort to unseat him. In the end, however, the wealth behind the Liberty League sealed its fate. Never one to shy away from “a good fight”, FDR took on the forces wealth behind the Liberty League and other like-minded groups in a devastating full frontal attack. Characterizing the League as a tool of what he called “selfish big business,” FDR would go on to remind the public that the wealthy interests behind such groups tended “to consider the Government of the United States as a mere appendage to their own affairs.” Indeed, based on the experience of the late 20s and early 30s, he continued, we “know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.” He then fully acknowledged their contempt, when he famously said: > >*Never before in all our history have these forces been so united against one candidate as they stand today. They are unanimous in their hate for me-and I welcome their hatred.* > >\*I should like to have it said of my first Administration that in it the forces of selfishness and of lust for power met their match. I should like to have it said of my second Administration that in it these forces met their master.\*FDR won the 1936 election in an unprecedented landslide, taking 46 states and more than 60% of the popular vote. The American Liberty League never recovered; **and as for fascism, the United States would go on to destroy it, not only through the military might we unleashed during the Second World War, but also through the effective regulation of capitalism that was established in the New Deal.** Social Security buys half of all t-bills while it is regressive so that it flew under the radar more from being cut by wealth but allows many people to have good retirements or people without parents or disabled that need assistance, highly underrated program that Republicans want to get rid of. Social Security is an investment so that the low end is brought up and not a crisis. SEC made our markets trustable unlike overseas for a long time and even now, who trusts China's market? SEC made US an investable market for the world and all classes. Private equity is killing that off and the public markets are constantly under attack. Wall Street forgot that the SEC is here to make investments sound, which leads to more investment. We need another FDR or Teddy Roosevelt badly. Teddy would definitely round house kick many 'representatives'. FDR would call us fearful as we vote and do policy based on fear not opportunity anymore. Me personally I thought Warren was that because she saw the dark side and came to the light, she saw the viciousness of the financial industry and banks and how it was leaving lower/middle class wreckage. But anyone that wants to break up the banks is fine with me, ""too big to fail"" is a national security issue. We need a Newer Deal to defeat fascism and Gilded Age resurgence, like they said it was a national security issue then as it is now ""and as for fascism, the United States would go on to destroy it, not only through the military might we unleashed during the Second World War, **but also through the effective regulation of capitalism that was established in the New Deal.""** Let's agree to disagree and both benefit if Elizabeth Warren takes on the big banks and have a more robust fair capitalist market because of it. Good day. It seemed like you were taking an opposing point of view and attacking the messenger, it wasn't clear my mistake. As you might see, I get lots of pushback with facts on this sub and other related to economics. My bad, I was reading it quick while doing work and misinterpreted in an annoyed mood while working on a bug. On your point, I like to debate with people for even just the basic exercise of researching my points more and maybe getting info out there, but you can rarely change beliefs of some people. Sassy, but fair. [deleted] That’s good. What are you trying to say. I understand how Fed repo works, I know how the entire repo market works. I literally just signed a master agreement to do $200 million of Repo with RBC. 🤣 Literally had nothing to do with the bank becoming in need of a bailout. If you want to understand when a bank will need a bailout I suggest you read a banks Pillar 3 report or familiarize yourself with Basel 3. Cheers mate. You have a lot to learn You have no idea what you’re talking about. Default rate is what risk is measured. Liquidity is fine. 🤣 how do I know? I traded it. I manage $8 billion. Ha. You lost the argument. Rookie mistake. No comeback huh? it must be exhausting to spend so much effort on those that speak without understanding That's the point of this entire discussion. Japan has no inflation. I never suggested I didn’t have a lot to learn, but it doesn’t take a genius to realise that the fed stepping into the repo market (remind me how many times they have done this, in their long history) in order to provide liquidity (this was supposed to be short term, remember?) is an issue and that issue almost definitely rests at the foot of a big bank. I'll believe it when I see the Robinhood screenshots. Cool, sounds good. Not quite same scale but same boat ;) I didn't say liquidity wasn't fine, I agree. I said to observe what happened to short term treasuries when repo rate went above 10%. I realize their default rate is nigh non existent, I'm pointing out how they diverge from cash once a crunch of any type starts, as opposed to what 30 and 60 day funds rates did If I misunderstand something please let me know No rational response to a blathering of ad-hominems, red herrings, straw men wrapped up in a gish gallop. I think your post stands on its own merits and says everything it needs to. [deleted] It’s a tiny issue. To give you an example of how bank funding works Deposits Repo Then AFS securities JPM has $200 billion with the fed. $1.5 trillion in deposits $350 billion in AFS JPM has $545 billion in HQLA with 116% LCR which is made of deposits and level 1 securities More than enough to cover any losses. And guess what... the repo transaction is collateralized in the first place. And since you don’t know how that works, it’s more than 100% collateral. My firm receives 102% in treasures and agencies for the repo agreement. It could be 110% but it’s usually more than 100%. So, can you please tell me how $200 billion in collateralized repo is a risk to a $2.6 trillion bank? Funny dude. You have a lot to learn my good man. I literally analyze banks for a living. https://i.imgur.com/WzWrTIB.png ;) Lol that's not how any of this works. Time to ignore you, clearly. Lol I was joking, but I do appreciate your willingness to share. Also I agree with your above statements for the most part. I've read too many borderline conspiracy theories about how the banking industry is on the verge of a 2008 level melt-down. So running short term FI I'm guessing? Just rates? My point about cash/rates/USTs divergence last Sept makes sense to you or no? :D 0-5 years Short duration. That was a one time event that’ll never happen again. Simply poor timing. But that is no risk to treasuries. I wouldn't call it a risk to treasuries, not what I'm getting at and I dont mean anything like default risk. It seemed to demonstrate the differences between cash and USTs very quickly as the USTs value as collateral re reverse repos fell. I'm talking about that moment in a funding crunch Poor timing yes, with Saudi cash withdrawals coinciding with tax withdrawals, but simply poor timing and never happen again? What makes you say that? The institution most likely to have needed the cash, JPM, was explicitly criticizing regulatory changes that increased their cap requirements to participate in the repo market (that IOER/FFR arb disappears when rates are falling again) If a standing repo facility isn't put together who's to say we don't get more of this same behavior as soon as one big participant in the repo market has to withdraw again? Thoughts? The FED will make the repo facility permanent. Agreed, my prediction as well since Oct. That white paper by st Louis fed in March (?) 2019 made me think that was coming Also the fact that they seem cornered into it a bit Japanification continues, despite Shirakawa-san's warnings"