>

This is always the argument I use when someone accepts binary trans people but not non-binary people.
Premise: intersex people exist.
Question: if an intersex person decides to embrace their status as intersex and consider themselves neither a man nor woman, is that valid?  Or do they have to pick one?
If they are not allowed to do that: why?  That seems completely absurd.  Forcing intersex people to “pick a side” is a demonstrably harmful thing and to the extent that it happens it really should not.
If they are allowed to do that: what about if someone identified the exact same way but they were not intersex?  Are they allowed to do that too?
If not: this means you are gatekeeping a gender identity behind biology which is the exact same argument as normal transphobes.
If so: that person is non-binary and you just agreed with them identifying like that.
/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards >

At first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. 
The heck is a nibling? >

Gender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times >

Pardon me, but what exactly is the derogatory h-word you mentioned?
hetero? homo? >

Probably hermaphrodite >

Isnt that the scientific term for that phenomenon tho? >

Not in humans. It’s called ”intersex”. ”Hermaphodite” is a zoological term. >

Ah TIL ty! >

Same.  42 years old.  never knew it was wrong to say hermaphrodite >


I draw the line at "non-binary". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? 

Non-binary doesn't mean "half and half." >

If you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?
My question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)? >

If you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either. >

OK, this is interesting, but also concerning.
My friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.
Based on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. 
At least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that. >

I know you're already done with this thread (as per the edits) but I wanted to add something that might help here. You're actually right on this one. I identify as nonbinary but the more accurate would be agender. Being chocolate is horrible for me but becoming vanilla wouldn't help or change anything, it would be equally horrible in different ways. And that sucks. It sucks that there are no good options but honestly the REAL reason it sucks is that even though there are no good options for me I'm still forced to pick a side and picking a side when all sides are horrible, deeply upsetting options is a really terrible place to be. I'm forced to pick a side bc, here's the thing about gender, it's both a personal identity and a social identity. People put their gendered expectations on me everywhere I go, I get zero say in that, it just happens as a normal, standard aspect of existing in a gendered society. Everyone I meet sees me as some kind of gender and whatever their ideas are about how I look to them inform how they treat me and what they expect of me so my options are either fight a losing battle (since most people who've spent their entire lives living in a gendered society and seeing everything through a gendered lens aren't going to magically stop having gendered expectations just bc they upset me) or just accept it and move on. I choose to accept it and move on bc I personally dont feel like wasting energy on impossible battles... but I still hate it (don't mistake composure for ease). Every interaction I have that involves people picking a side for me is in some way terrible for me. Sometimes it's in small ways, sometimes it's more significant, but it's always there, it's like chronic pain but emotional and social. And I accept living this way simply bc there's no option for living without it, if I could opt out of the gendered system I'd do it in a heartbeat but I can't so constant emotional pain is the only option (since I'm not going to choose nonexistence over this but there are plenty of suicidal non binary people in the world who'd rather not exist than exist that way). 
So yes, it is distressing to be agender or non binary in this way, you're absolutely right to be concerned, it's incredibly concerning. >

Δ 
I have read responses from people who roughly fit my stereotype of non-binary as people who are “exploring and experimenting” with their gender, but are not overly disturbed by the minor disconnect between their sex and gender.
I was surprised to hear stories like yours, and they sound more like the stories of trans men and women that I am familiar with. 
It has certainly made me think. At the very least, there is more diversity in the non-binary world than I suspected.
Don’t let people like me get you down. Society gradually but inexorably becomes more progressive, but there are setbacks along the way. Hang in there. >

Couldn't non binary also simply mean someone who doesn't care for the whole concept of gender to begin with and wishes others wouldn't be seeing them as one of two genders. Experimenting isn't really something that comes to mind when I hear non binary. Maybe it's because I've always thought gender stereotypes and treating people according to gender stereotypes is ridiculous that the opposition to gender binary aspect is the first thing to come to mind when I hear non binary . Personally I've always been indifferent to which gender other people see me as but being seen as a man also doesn't bother me enough for me to tell people to stop assuming. >

Nah, that would be non-chalant not non-binary >

My view of my own gender is definitely non chalant or indifferent yes. But wouldn't someone who finds the whole concept of gender offensive to begin with and doesn't wish to identify as one for that reason be non-binary? >

Don’t ask me I only tried to post a funny comment I don’t have the critical thinking required to weigh in with any real conviction >

Hello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.
I also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience. >

Doesn't this just enforce gender roles? 
No one is the perfect embodiment of man or woman and everyone deviates from what those terms imply in many aspects. Someone being non binary implies they deviate from what we consider men and women too, but non binary considers those terms more strict than they actually are.
Effeminate men are still men like you said, humans without arms or legs are still humans, women who have hysterectomies are still women etc. It seems more like a rejection for rejection's sake. >

Hey, I’m honestly all for “rejection for rejection’s sake”. To me, gender stuff is stupid! But if you’re going to eliminate the term non-binary because it’s unnecessary, you surely have to do the same with man and woman, too. They’re all as unnecessary as each other. 
That said, I also know that it’s important to some people. They really care about the role society puts on them. So as long as they’re not espousing any particularly toxic views, they can go ahead and do what they want. 
While I do have ideas about gender, primarily, all I care about is getting to live in the body I want. I can live with the stupid labels. >

I'm not saying we should eliminate the term, just that we recognize it probably is reinforcing gender roles more than it's dismantling them. I find that societally interesting given how much pushback there is for gender roles in modern rhetoric. >

Like everyone else, trans and non-binary people fulfill or reject gender roles at completely different levels from one another. I don’t think there’s any way to say that their existence in general validates these roles any more than the fact that the words ‘man’ and ‘woman’ exist at all. 
But I’m not a gender theorist. I’m not the person who should be arguing this specific point. It just feels weird to be told I’m reinforcing gender roles because I had some surgery. >

Everyone is non binary in terms of perfectly adhering to one end of the gender spectrum. It's also a moving target so even if someone was the perfect embodiment of "man" 100 years ago in the West, they may not be now. 
No one is the perfect pinnacle of man or woman and extracting oneself from that equation entirely is basically saying that there's zero configuration of the man / woman continuum that could possibly describe someone accurately. We're all humans with human parts, we are going to be accurately described by some configuration of the terms we use to describe humans. That's why non binary seems like it's something performative. Non binary doesn't seem to be used as "somewhere in the middle," it's used to say that someone is outside the gender continuum entirely and that reinforces the idea that man and woman are too restrictive to embody some humans and that reinforces gender roles.
An example is building something. Men traditionally build stuff, women don't traditionally build stuff according to very strict gender roles. If a man doesn't build stuff, that doesn't make him a woman. If a woman builds stuff, that doesn't make her a man. If someone rejects the idea of building stuff, that doesn't make them outside that continuum, that aspect just doesn't really apply to them because that one aspect doesn't dictate whether someone exists on a sliding scale. So consequentially, essentially saying someone exists outside of the human gender spectrum reinforces that the spectrum has bounds. It doesn't really, it's just a sliding scale that encompasses the entirety of human gender expression. It's not even gendered at that point, we include everything on the scale because it's a representation of the range of our behaviors as humans. >

I can’t find anything I disagree with in that. The one question for me is why are man and woman still the ends of the spectrum at all? It’s clearly pretty useless in most areas! >

Being non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. 
Being non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.
Intersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns. >

Can you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn) >

I'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.
In terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man. >

I don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary >

Expectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender. >

But why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with? >

The description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.
I don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite. >

That seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it >

nonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities >

I will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.
Why not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier? >


Why not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?

Imagine if everyone constantly misgendered you. Would you switch to make your daily life easier? >

I don’t believe that non-binary is a gender, so this argument only makes sense for trans people (whom I wouldn’t misgender on purpose). >

Do you identify as male or female? >

Male >

If you were constantly referred to as female, would you change your identity to make your daily life easier? >

Yes? Not OP, and it would seem bizarre, but my sex is like my skin or eye colour, or my ethnicity. Why should I care? Why should anyone care about what theirs is, beyond how it affects how people treat you? 
It would bother me more that it's technically incorrect than if it felt somehow an inadequate descriptor.
I cannot seem to comprehend why people care, beyond acknowledging a discomfort and obsession with being different that cannot be satisfied any other way. I don't blame people for feeling that way, but I don't understand. >


I draw the line at "non-binary". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?

That's not what Non-binary means.  It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category.  You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender.  
Most of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female.  That's the "advantage", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less. >

Curious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason? >

They mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns. >

I guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman? >

They aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).
Or they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it. >

Do people need to consent to be called they/them though?  I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes… >

Sometimes people include it as an indication of support for the concept of they/them pronouns in general, or just to indicate that they'll be okay with it if you like, forget their binary pronoun and default to an ambiguous one or something like that. 
For some people (usually trans people who have a lot of dysphoria or trauma from misgendering), sticking exclusively to their binary pronoun is important. Saying you use he/they or she/they can basically just be saying "it won't bother me if you call me they". >

Hermaphrodite’s or those with genitals not matching their body because of extra chromosomes or those missing parts because of broke chromosomes has nothing to do with transgenderism or non-binary…ism. Those are genetic mutations. Legitimate mess ups. What is happening though is that a lot of people are trying use actual genetic mutations to build a more solid foundation under their viewpoint. Like I promise nobody polled all the 5 hermaphrodites and asked them if the hermaphrodite was offensive. They need to get rid of the word hermaphrodite because lots of people know what it means and thus ruins the whole argument. >

Well I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong. >


the h-word is offensive/derogatory. "Middlesex" from here on out. Apologies

Small nitpick, "intersex." Source: Dated an intersex guy in college. He had both bits. It was pretty neat. >

That’s what I meant. My wife has a book called Middlesex in our bookshelf and somehow that sprang to mind >

It just means “look at me!” >

I think that's dismissive. Tbh I think it's more like people who feel like they lack control in life. Maybe from some previous trauma where agency was taken from them or disrespected, or a mountain of those instances. They'd probably call this evaluation dismissive too though, so what do I know. >

I think one or both is usually true, but you’re right. It is funny that the person you described is the type that is most prone to joining cults. >

I don’t understand it either. Non binary makes no sense to me.
But it also doesn’t matter if it makes sense to me. Like, I personally don’t understand a lot of things other people go through. It’s one of those things, you don’t really have to understand. >

every individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid
for some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of "male" or "female.” >

Why is everyone's experience of gender automatically valid? >

Especially when if it were someone’s experience of race they’d be shut down, even though the differences between races are way smaller than those between sexes >

People call this false equivalence but then can't explain why >

I'm non-binary, and it's honestly just a matter of comfort for me. I was assigned female at birth but being called a woman or by she/her pronouns makes me uncomfortable. Truth be told I don't really know why. I am feminine, but I don't feel like a woman. 
When I was a kid I wanted to be a boy until I hit puberty and I realized being a boy meant becoming a man and I didn't want that. I liked the gender ambiguity I felt that boys were allowed (not much, but not immediately being assumed to love barbies was enough for me) but not the level of masculinity that men had. When I got old enough to know what they/them pronouns were, I started going by she/they (because I thought I'm comfortable with either). Then a friend asked me 'which pronoun do you prefer though?' and I realized "shit, I prefer they." and then I realized "shit, I can ask people to just always call me they!". That realization made me both happy and scared. When people call me they it makes me feel very happy, so I was excited to know that about myself. But I was also terrified because I realized that I am not someone who looks gender androgynous and this will not be an easy path for me. That's still how I feel, and I know my family will probably feel how you do if I come out so I am trying to avoid anyone in my family finding out while still being non-binary in a professional setting. 
Here's my take on it as someone who has went through it. I don't understand people who use neo-pronouns (other than he/she/they). I don't know of any scientific evidence that their identities are valid. But I also don't care, because there was also a time when there was no scientific evidence around gay people and it was widely considered to be a choice. I realize that what I should accept should be anyone who is not hurting other people, and other than that I just choose to not care. There will always be people who are part of an identity who are faking it maybe because they have a mental illness or something, but if I risk harming someone who is not faking it by assuming that they are it isn't worth it. 
There is history and evidence behind non-binary identities which I'm sure is covered in other comments, but even if there weren't it shouldn't change your stance on believing that it is a 'thing'. Unless the person is hurting someone, it's always better to just validate that person's feelings because you don't live inside their head. If you have doubts as to the authenticity of a person's claims and are seriously concerned about their mental health, direct them to a doctor. But don't make those doubts clear yourself because it will not ever help. Instead you'll just cause them to isolate themself and hate themself more. 
Always validate people who aren't hurting others. It often helps and can never hurt. >


Always validate people who aren't hurting others. It often helps and can never hurt.

This is completely false. There are many cases where we shouldn't validate people. If someone says "I'm 100% going to survive jumping off this bridge", it may very well hurt them to agree with them.
There are several psychological disorders in which not validating their delusions can help as treatment.

not immediately being assumed to love barbies was enough for me

I've read many of the other non-binary accounts here, some which seems kind of convincing, and then the ones like yours that don't.
Not liking barbies? Not being presumed to like things? This is something many (if not most) kids go through. >

You can either think of it as
Purple is not red or blue. It is purple. It has pieces of both but to call it red is just wrong, it's not red it's purple..
Or
Yellow. It has nothing to do with red or blue, it does not contain red or blue, it is a completely different color. Just because it's not red does not make it blue. 
Has there never been a day where you didn't feel masculine? Where you didn't want to do the masculine thing. You don't want to do anything feminine, you just don't want to do the masculine. >


Has there never been a day where you didn't feel masculine? Where you didn't want to do the masculine thing. You don't want to do anything feminine, you just don't want to do the masculine

this is a bad example. this describes every human. >

As others are saying, non-binary doesn’t mean that you’re right in the middle of the gender binary, but you fall outside of the gender binary. I’m a cis man so my knowledge is limited but I definitely know that much. >

If there can be 100 genders then why can't non-binary be the thing. Anyone can indentify with anything. It may not sound meaningful to you but it is for them. >

Someone who I know is non binary, they don't ever correct pro nouns. They're whoever they want to be, and they accept however they're perceived. >

Another aspect that doesn't seem to be captured here is the dynamic of fluidity. Labels tend to fix peoples gender and the truth is especially for highly gender fluid people. (fluidity being on a spectrum) some people that call themselves non binery are possably people who don't fix their identy one way or another but at differing times may express their gender in varying steriotypical ways over time. I don't think one need be completly bland and just wear gender neutral clothing to be non binery.  One could very well be a spicy variety of non binery and that's acceptable. In the end it's an internal identification rather than a form of external expression.  I may be wrong though, in that fluidity may not at all be a factor in pervasive gender neutrality.  Either or is OK with me. >

It's all beyond ridiculous >

Good thing is, you don’t have to get it. That’s your sibling, if there is love and camaraderie then accept them as they are. >

If you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?
More importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong? >


It seems like they just want attention.

Even assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?

What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?

That's not what non-binary means.

What advantage does a non-binary person gain

Why are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like "non-binary" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care? >

How can someone feel that they are non-binary? >

It’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen  just “androgynous” like how people saw  David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper
Than that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. 
There doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves. >

But can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality? >

These feelings of being outside the binary  are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. 
Who are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary? >

We also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both. >

Intersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. 
Red hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?
And I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary. >

I am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue? >

You say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. 
Do you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?
(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex ) >

But the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex >

You not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. 
Think of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. 
Personal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. 
As we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. 
That anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary. >

Would you agree that sex is a binary (with exceptions for middlesex and very rare chromosomal anomalies)?
I believe that gender is fairly tightly tied to sex. The spectrum is heavily weighted to one side, more so than sexual preference if you believe the statistics on transgender.
Gender is a spectrum, but not like temperature, more like athleticism. A vanishingly small slice of the athleticism spectrum will ever play professional sports. The trans portion of the gender spectrum is much larger than the pro-sports slice, but it is still pretty small.
The genders of "male" and "female" are still fairly useful and predictive (for trans men and women also). Yes, they are influenced by culture, but I still believe there are innate gender (not just sex) characteristics that are heavily represented in the male gender and not nearly as much in the female (and vice versa).
My point is that we should support transgender people, but we need not pretend that male and female aren't still useful distinctions. >


very rare chromosomal anomalies

Estimates and definitions vary, but the low end of the range is 0.018% of the population is intersex (the high end is 1.7%). Assuming it's only 0.018% of the population, that's nearly 2 in 10,000 people. That's not insignificant. That's around 54,000 people just in the US. At minimum, more than 1.4 million intersex people in the world. I don't think it's reasonable to write 1.4 million people off as an anomaly that might as well not exist. >

Significance is measured in percentage. 0.018% is not significant, and recalculating it to an absolute number doesn't make it more significant just because the number is high.

I don't think it's reasonable to write 1.4 million people off as an anomaly that might as well not exist.

Significance is not importance. If we say that >98% of humans can be categorized into two sexes, it it totally reasonable to approximate sex as a binary. There is no moral statement about those that don't fit the approximation in that. >


If we say that >98% of humans can be categorized into two sexes, it it totally reasonable to approximate sex as a binary

Totally reasonable for what though?  It may be fine for some things, but excluding a percent or two of the population for, say, healthcare, or government systems, sounds really bad.
Whether a given percentage is significant or not depends on context.  0.018% of something isn't inherently insignificant because it's a small number. >

I think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” 
If you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity. >

I happened to mention to my daughter that when I've been single I think of myself as a "person" rather than a "woman". She said, "Mum - you're non-binary!" Idk if this helps at all. I don't feel any gender dysphoria, though. >

You say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. 
Why do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary? >

Is it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?
If some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish. >

Can you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either >

My parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations. >


I have known two separate sets of parents who have dealt with gender dysphoria in their children.

Hey, genuine question. Of the new children around you, what your observed rate of gender dysphoria ?
I am still working on my beliefs around 'fashions' vs 'base rates'. This would help. Thanks. >

I'm also confused. >

The axioms used to justify the conceptual separation of sex and gender are incoherent so any discussion about non binary vs trans is from the jump just going to be arguing over who’s incoherent concept is more coherent.      Waste of time. >

I don't see how "hermaphrodite" is offensive. A quick Google search shows its origin, if anything that is sucking up to them more than anything, referring to them as "those like a descendant of the gods."
That just seems like another instance of people trying to be offended and victimized by everything they can think of. Idk, please enlighten me chat if I am not seeing the full picture (maybe if someone is reeeeeally atheistic they might not like the term?) >

Gender is made up. It’s societal, not biological (like, for example, sex is). Doctors who specialize in mental health are of the opinion that if looking or acting a way that’s outside of typical gender norms and doesn’t hurt anyone stops people from hating themselves, or even if it just makes them a little happier, they should do that. It’s not that complicated. Would you rather have a happy sibling, or a depressed one? Maybe you’d rather have a dead sibling? It’s not about you and it’s not a big deal if your sibling wants to break gender norms. >

Tired of seeing CMV prompts where the user is completely correct and nothing needs changing. Feels like a reverse soapbox for the comment section. >

Because it doesn’t exist. >

A thing that might help you understand is that a person can be anywhere on the spectrum between man and a woman. But also these concepts are quite subjective (What one person might consider a 100% man, the most manly man to exist, someone else might consider 95%) and people draw boxes on the spectrum and everybody that falls in one box is a man and everybody in the other is a woman, but these boxes are also subjective. (It sounds like you draw the boxes so that only 50-50 is not in either, but other people might disagree where the 50-50 point in, or have drawn smaller boxes, so more range is not in either.)
So if the person themselves feel like they are not in either box (or possibly both, depending on how they draw these boxes) you could think they are presenting more one way and for you the way they express themselves might even put them firmly in one box, but you should respect them and maybe try to understand how your boxes differ. >

Is this a post about teenagers trying to figure out who they are and that being messy, tiresome, insightful, egotistical, wrong, right, weird, awkward and work-in-progress? 
If it is, then maybe you just help them figure out the difference between who they are, who they think they are and who they want to be, in a respectful, supportive way that teaches that everything has consequences, owning your shit is important, projection is a hell of a drug, and that it's ok to be confused. >

Trans is a gender, non binary is an identity. >

I personally feel like I struggle with the concept of non-binary because it is GENDER which is nonsense in the first place. 
I think the idea that most cis people identify with the gender assigned to them is false. What it means for me to “feel” like a woman has nothing to do with what might make someone else identify with the gender.
The idea of being NB doesn’t fit with me because I see gender as a spectrum. I feel like this creates an “other” when really we are all just on the same spectrum. But I think we need to go through this phase to come out the other side with a more healthy societal view that is less binary overall. >

Usually a non binary is a trans person too scared to transition .. Period. There maybe exceptions.
But generally.. that’s what it is. >

Welp guess I don't exist, guess I'll die then ¯⁠\⁠⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠⁠/⁠¯ >

OP, why do you feel the need to draw a line anywhere? What difference does it make?
Also, unrelated, but people usually die on hills, not bridges! >

even if it is just teenagers acting out because they feel like they don't belong, what's the harm and taking a few moments to make them feel like they do belong? People are constantly going on and on about hormones but the truth is that a lot of people are on hormones for unrelated things, and that you can stop taking hormones. I've had a lot of friends transition, and a few reverse the process. Gender dysphoria is a real thing, and if you start taking hormones and start feeling like "a man" or "a woman" some people realize it's not them and de-transition. But like there's fentanyl, and an opioid crisis. who gives a fuck about whatever ppl need to feel included? >

We agree. >

Don't let people make you feel bad. I agree with you. Not liking dresses doesn't make you not a woman idk. A lot of young people claim NB just to be edgy..its apparent. >

There is no objective truth here to appeal to. It's all social constructs. If biologically male and female people start identifying as trans or non-binary, and that becomes the accepted norm... well, then that becomes the new social reality.
Like, just like the social reality of royalty, right? There is no objective biological difference between members of the royal family and non-royals. Royalty is a social construct. Still, we don't tend to think that means it's "not real," and arguing so would be meaningless. 
In the case of the social construct that is the royal family, that is to say, it is clearly understood by all that the matter up for debate isn't "whether they exist," but whether they should exist. Whether the social/political norms -- in which there are Kings and Queens and there are those who are not -- should continue to be the ones we live by.
That is what I think such debates about gender really are. They are not really about whether trans or non-binary people do exist but about whether the label should be socially accepted.
Now, I mean there are denialists on the pro-trans side who claim some biological distinction where there isn't one but they are trivially wrong. But the debate which persists beyond that is one about value judgements, not biology.
So the question you really should be asking yourself is whether you're willing to accept people who identify as non-binary as non-binary. Not whether they """are""" non-binary, because non-binaryism is a social construct so that question has no truth value one way or the other beyond appealing to a social reality in which people either do or do not consider non-binaryism to exist as a social category. >

Lemme try
Using neutral pronouns makes me happy and comfortable, using other pronouns doesn’t feel right to me
No real reason why, I don’t hate them, they just don’t feel right to me, like someone calling me by a wrong name over and over >

What is about she/her pronouns that don’t feel “right” to you? >

I assume you use she/her. What about he him wouldn’t feel right to you? >

Who are you asking? I don’t mind answering, I’m just not sure >

I have several friends that are medical specialists in this field. I don’t fully understand it myself. But the way it was explained to me is that there is Gender, Sex, and sexuality. There are a myriad of genes that cause and/or affect each one of these aspects of the human being. In most cases, you wind up with a human whose gender, sex, and sexuality all line up as either male, or female. For example I think and feel like a male, I have male genitalia, and I am sexually attracted to people who present with female attributes. 
In about 2-10% of ALL mammal populations, the genes and gene expressions don’t “line up” cohesively on one end of the spectrum or the other. These individuals could present as female, think like a male, but have both male AND female genitalia. Others can think they are female, have male genitalia, and are attracted to people who present with male attributes. They could also think like a female, present as a male, but are sexually attracted to females. And several other combinations I haven’t mentioned or thought about.
So the idea that non-binary doesn’t exist, is like saying you can’t mix paint. Or better yet, you can’t have red hair, brown eye brows, and a cleft chin. Gene expression is super complex and varied. And often present in unique and special ways. These people used to be considered special and were revered by their community as having some connection with the Devine.
Heck, there’s a population in South America where they have a unique adolescents transition that delays when a child with male genitalia have those genitalia descend. So you have families that have 2 daughters until adolescents. When suddenly one of those “daughters” suddenly starts to show male genitalia. Sexuality, and gender expression is way more fascinating than our white, privileged, Christian culture has allowed us to know about.
[Edited to add] personally, “non-binary” is a great way to say, “I haven’t chosen to lean heavy in one specific way.” Either because they don’t want to, don’t care to, or don’t find a specific label self affirming. But I also realize that there would be combinations that would be best described as non-binary.
[Edit 2] I have been corrected in that “thinking female or male” isn’t a thing. I clearly don’t understand gender very well, lol. And I was reminded that my language could imply that any of this is a decision. Not my intention at all. >

I think of myself as non binary, but I never really knew that until the term started becoming more well known. 
But at this point, I’m just exhausted talking about it. It has nothing to do with wanting attention. People have asked my pronouns and I just say “whatever, I don’t care. Whatever vibe you get from me, call me that.” 
I think it’s become more “popular” and seems like a fad to some people, but for me I just never had a way to identify how I felt growing up. I never called myself non binary until recently (I’m 33.)
My brain feels trans but not to a degree that I want to change my body. I do kinda wish I was born the opposite sex but I’ve just gotten so used to living a “normal” life that I just don’t really have the energy to do that kind of transition. So I just do whatever I want and don’t really think too hard about the labels but “non binary” 100% is how I feel. >


My brain feels trans but not to a degree that I want to change my body. I do kinda wish I was born the opposite sex but I’ve just gotten so used to living a “normal” life that I just don’t really have the energy to do that kind of transition.

Thank you for explaining it this way. This is 100% exactly how I feel even though I don't identify as non-binary. I still don't under the label "non-binary" because it feels like such a hassle still. If I look like a woman, there's no point in constantly correcting people who can't physically see that I am non-binary, so I just continue living as a woman with she/her pronouns even though I would prefer to be a man.
I'm guessing being non-binary is more about a lack of care for pronouns? >

It doesn’t really have to do with pronouns at all for me. I kinda feel like I’m too old to care the way that young people do now. 
It’s all so exhausting to think about and deal with. I mean, truly exhausting, in my own head, and then having to talk about it, so I just gave up on talking about it and I live how I want to live. 
I let the close people in my life know so they they wouldn’t be all weirded out or have a million questions if I show up wearing make up or a dress or something like that. 
But beyond that, the only word I can think of is “exhausted.” It feels like more energy than it’s worth to have to talk about it or correct people or give a fuck about pronouns. 
However, some rando at a gas station check out line recently said “she can go first, I’m just waiting for someone else” and it made me giddy. I wasn’t even looking particularly feminine IMO. 
But I’m not delusional. I know I’m not a woman. I’m not gonna try to say that “I’ve always been a woman and demand to be treated as such!” >

I also struggle to understand the concept
But think about it this way : Imagine you were born in a country (let's say France), but you emigrated with your parents to another country (let's say USA) when your were young. You were raised by your parents as a French, but also grew up in America and actually embraced the culture of your adoptive country.
Dual citizens are pretty much accepted in modern society, but now imagine that society pressured you to identify with only one nationality. For this person it will be really difficult to choose one since he has pretty much a mix between two cultures (this is actually my case btw).
With gender it's a little more tricky since it's closely tied to your sex, but here is more about the way you express yourself. When you're NB you don't think you fit with the other "boys" but also not the "girls" because you don't possess the typical caractheristics of neither ( think about culture from my other exemple). >

gender is fake, bb. >

Some Indigenous peoples in Canada have had “non-binary” in they cultures for tens of thousands of years.  Some nations don’t have any gendered language. >

While I sympathize with people who genuinely suffer from gender dysphoria many people who support non-binary pronouns treat them like astrological signs or personality types like INFJ from that flawed personality test where they read different definitions of a bunch of genders and say "yup, that's what I am. Sounds like me" and that's what they refer to themselves as, but they did not suffer from genuine dysphoria all there life. 
This is why this is the only disorder in recent history to have a massive unprecedented uptick after becoming mainstream, because it's not even just a disorder anymore it's evolved into a "you can choose your own gender" situation since its a societal restructuring that anyone can partake in and once ordinary people start using custom or non-binary pronouns cause they want to it's not treated as a medical issue and it weakens the sympathy and support, and also gives weight to the argument that you are confusing children.
The infinite genders / pronouns have harmed the transgender movement and genuine chronic gender dysphoria sufferers because they are two separate (although similar) issues but they're lumped together so if one has an issue the other is automatically wrong too by association. It's been hard to properly treat people with genuine gender dysphoria and accept them into our society when it's being taught that anyone can be whatever they want to be and gender is fluid to impressionable minds, our approach needs to change ASAP. >

We're all about giving new names to in betweens.
A lion and a tiger, it's a liger
Donkey and a horse, it's a mule
A mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo
When you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. 
Binary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.
There are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.