>

This is coming from someone that has come to like the US more even with the Reddit propaganda. A valid argument that can be debated is that it’s the worst of the first world countries which puts it at an above average place to live compared to other places in the world.
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This feels like an issue of relativity.
I'd rather be poor in the USA than in North Korea. I'd rather be poor in Germany or the UK than in the USA.
But if you look at the middle classes and up then the standard of living in the USA gets very high. And then, if we're talking personally, you have to balance that against specific things you value. The states vary a lot but the insanely low level of things like holiday and sick pay, or worker protections in general, aren't things I like the sound of at all.
If someone's an average American then obviously relative to parts of the world that are struggling for clean drinking water then they're doing bloody amazing. If one of them looks over to Western Europe and goes "They get how many days of paid holiday!?!?" then I'm not going to blame them at all for thinking they're getting exploited. >

I think this basically sums it up pretty well. I feel like this might not be something very debatable after all because it’s honestly just a matter of relativity…
This isn’t just a problem with Americans, hell it’s a problem over here too where people who have arguably amazing lives still end up complaining a ton. It’s something I’ve ended up growing insensitive towards generally. Of course, complaining isn’t all that bad because it does lead to change. >

There are MANY people in this thread, and certainly Americans online, who say EXACTLY what you’re saying here.  You don’t have to fall in line just bc many deny it when you post one specific thread about it.  On its face, it’s ridiculous: saying that the US is, in any way, a terrible place to live, relative to the rest of the world.  And when people see it laid out like this, in this post, it’s easy to deny it.  But, spend 5 minutes on the socials, and you’ll find MANY folks bitching about the US, and claiming it’s the worst.  Look at how this post only has just 67 upvotes after 9 hours.  Hell, roll over to r/latestagecapitalism and pick a post.  I’d ask any poster over there to spend three months at any other place and be at the bottom of the ladder, then ask them if they want to come back.  Every single one would be on the first flight back, I’d bet.  Most of these people complaining have never even been outside the US.  Like all the folks who say “I’m leaving the country if X is elected!!!!!”  Not a lot of those folks go anywhere if you check in on them a few months later, and that’s no surprise.  The internet is loaded with folks who constantly spite the hand that feeds them.  It’s what young people do, generally. >

It's not that it's such a bad place to live for most Americans.
But considering it's the wealthiest country in the world, it should be a whole lot better. >

I pretty much agree. >

The biggest thing you have to realize is that how much of what you actually think about America is true? What happens when you start looking at states that offer free community College tuition. Or even free college tuition for in state students based on income. They just have to sign up for it and many of these states are pretty conservative. 
Even with crime a lot of people in Europe are falling into the same bs as suburban whites. Both of you guys think the inner city is a battle zone. And if you walk outside there will be people robbing, shooting and killing each other. Simply untrue for the most part people do not bother you if they do just ignore them. 
The same with Healthcare. Its far from perfect but medicaid, Medicare and charity exist. And what happens if you really try and talk with europeans about race or racism. They just deflect or deny or say it's an isolated incident if it's in Europe. 
Absolutely nuts in all honesty. Think about someone in America saying they went to a restaurant or something and they said the restaurant treats asian people unfairly and everyone deflected and told them it didn't happen.
Or if someone was being followed in a store and then a bunch of random europeans would say it's not racist. Just think about disgusting ass behavior of deflecting that shit. Whats the reality of America vs the reddit and internet world of America. I'll also add this works for most of the world. >

Things could always be worse. Things could always be better. Nowhere in the world is all bad for all people. Saying America, one of the wealthiest nations in the world, is not "that bad" to live feels like an understatement. But for some, it is that bad and worse. For some America is the worst possible outcome. It's different for everyone. >

For whom is it the worst possible outcome? >

Emmet Till? Rodney King? >

You know there’s racism and murder everywhere right? >

So in that sense America is just as bad as everywhere else? >

It’s certainly not the worst. >

The view isn't about whether or not its the worst, its about whether it's "that bad" >

And I’d still say it’s not.  Murders could have happened anywhere.  There’s no reason to think if Till or King had been born anywhere else there lives ultimately would have been better.  We can’t know that for anyone.  What we can know is the USA isn’t overflowing with racist murderers.  Especially compared to other countries.  People like to forget there’s more differences than just black and white. >

Yea most of Americans have no idea how privelage they are to be here. They spend their energy pointing out even more privelage people then themselves, and begging rationalizing why they can’t have what they want, mostly because some greedy person took it from them. It has framed the way many people view this country. >

Privilege is half the conversation. From the benchmark, baseline, and perspective of people who can already afford to be in the USA, there are better options with higher life expectancy, economic mobility, education, lack of lead water contamination, freedom, lower poverty, whatever. 
As long as that is understood and they aren't saying America is worse than North Korea, it is a valid conversation. >

I'll make a comment in the opposite direction. The USA is not only "not that bad," but a great place to live. I say this as someone who has traveled extensively, both within the US, to the third world, Latin America, and Europe. I'm not delusional about the US's flaws, however I often find there's a bait and switch when comparing the US. It gets compared to the top few countries in every category, but then it isn't acknowledged that the top few countries aren't the same in every category. It's also worth noting that many of the countries found frequently in these lists are highly homogenous countries with 5-10 million people. The USA has 330+ million highly diverse people in a country large enough to be it's own continent. Comparing the USA to Finland (for example) is a bit apples to oranges. A more apt comparison for the USA is the EU. In both you have great areas, and some down-on-their-luck areas. Picking a few Nordic countries to compare to the USA, is like comparing Massachusetts to the EU.
While the plight of the poor in the United States is generally not as bad as the internet makes it out to be, I fully concede that it is likely better to be poor in the EU on average than in the USA. That said, I'm not sure the same can be said about the middle class. Americans do get paid more on average in real terms, and this makes a difference.
Finally, if you compare the USA and EU by the values of the median EU citizen, the USA doesn't stack up that well, but the same is true in reverse. Put simply, Americans have different values on average. Generally speaking Reddit's values look much closer to the median EU citizen, that is neither good nor bad, just something to keep in mind.
In summary, the USA is a huge, diverse country and as a result is much harder to govern. Despite this, the USA still ranks in the top 10% of countries in nearly every positive category. It has some flaws, but so does every country. Anyways... happy New Year! >

Well it is, it's just that you're aren't looking at where claims like these come from. These aren't comparing the US to third world and developing countries, but to other first world countries. The US will obviously be better than sub Saharan Africa, but that doesn't excuse their issues. America has many issues such as inequality, foreign policy, healthcare, prision system, racial divide and more that make it horrible when compared to first world counterparts, such as the Europeans, Nordics, South-East Asians and Australians. >

When speaking of the world and the US’s place in it, why would you intentionally leave out those countries? Of course the US has issues, but if you look at the entire world? I would rather live there than most other places. Not saying it excuses those flaws. Or it means people in the US shouldn’t fight for their rights. Everyone should. 
I just wish people wouldn’t ignore countries with even worse conditions. A lot of online discussions are Eurocentric or Americentric. And it leads people to undermine many other places issues.
Just googling “America is a 3rd world country” gives you many results of people believing this. When it is plainly untrue. >

Because American issues are first world issues. You cannot compare American poverty to places where the average is much less than it. There are places devoid of  access to food, water, electricity, which are more pressing issues than stuff like freedom and inequality. The whole America is bad is from a first world basis, nobody is arguing that a third world country is better, its just that America has issues that it fails to solve which are virtually non existent in other first world nations, for example school shootings. America is by no means third world, but compared to first world countries, some of its issues, like gun violence, can very much be compared to it. >

Okay, yeah, I think I’m starting to understand. It’s an observation I also made just now. The issues are so radically different to my own or other developed countries that it’s hard to relativize sometimes. The US might be a lot better in certain aspects compared to actual third world countries, but the comparison is drawn because in a lot of ways it’s strikingly more similar than to most first world countries.
Thank you for your answer.
!delta >

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/rmx152 (1∆).
^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards >

Maybe someone else mentioned this and I didn't see it, but I think one big, big piece missing from this discussion is how not all places in America are created equal.
Sure, on average, the U.S. has a relatively high quality of life, on a number of different metrics. But that glosses over how some places are in very bad shape.

There’s places where clean water or food isn’t guaranteed for many.

Google Flint, Michigan, and Jackson, Mississippi. (For bonus points, look up the racial breakdown of those cities as compared to the country as a whole.)

Child death is immense over there and it’s tragic.

In terms of common health metrics, consider that Arkansas has a maternal mortality of 40/100000, which is comparable to Belize (36/100000), Burundi (31/100000), Mongolia (45/100000), and Sri Lanka (36/100000), countries which don't exactly scream "high income." (I will concede that there's a valid case to be made about comparing data collection methods between countries, but I would still argue that these countries are all at least "roughly similar" to Arkansas and other states in the southern U.S.)
Etc.
Ultimately my point boils down to the idea that an average is not a good characterization of a set of data with a very large variance. >

Are those maternal mortality numbers measured the same? >

Inequality
OECD (2022) Income inequality (indicator)

"The Gini coefficient is based on the comparison of cumulative proportions of the population against cumulative proportions of income they receive, and it ranges between 0 in the case of perfect equality and 1 in the case of perfect inequality."

United States score was 0.375
This placed the US ahead of countries like Bulgaria, Türkiye, Mexico, Costa Rica.
and behind Slovak Republic, Slovenia, Czech Republic, Belgium, Norway, Finland, Denmark, Austria, Sweden, Canada, Poland, Hungary, France, Ireland, Germany, Netherlands, Estonia, Luxembourg, Greece, Portugal, Switzerland, Australia, New Zealand, Spain, Italy, Korea, Japan, Romania, Israel, Latvia, United Kingdom, Lithuania 
Freedom. 
The Cato Institute - HUMAN FREEDOM INDEX

The HFI is the most comprehensive freedom index so far created for a globally meaningful set of countries and jurisdictions representing 98.1 percent of the world’s population. 
"This seventh annual index uses 82 distinct indicators of personal and economic freedom in the following areas:
Rule of law
Security and safety
Movement
Religion
Association, assembly, and civil society
Expression and information


The countries that took the top 10 places, in order, were Switzerland, New Zealand, Denmark, Estonia, Ireland, Canada and Finland (tied at 6), Australia, Sweden, and Luxembourg. 
Selected jurisdictions rank as follows: United Kingdom (14), Germany, Japan, and the United States (tied at 15), Taiwan (19), Chile (28), Hong Kong (30), South Korea (31), France (34), Argentina (74), South Africa (77), Brazil (78), Mexico (93), India (119), Nigeria (123), Russia (126), Turkey (139), China (150), Saudi Arabia (155), Iran (160), Venezuela (164), and Syria (165).
Getting locked up
One out of every 5 people imprisoned across the world is incarcerated in the United States.
"World Prison Population List". World Prison Brief, Institute for Crime & Justice Policy Research.

There are more than 2.1 million prisoners in the
United States of America, 1.65 million in China
(plus unknown numbers in pre-trial detention
and other forms of detention), 690,000 in Brazil,
583,000 in the Russian Federation, 420,000 in
India, 364,000 in Thailand, 249,000 in Indonesia,
233,000 in Turkey, 230,000 in Iran, 204,000 in
Mexico and 188,000 in the Philippines.

International Law
Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court
The 1998 Rome Statute established four core international crimes: genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes, and the crime of aggression. It is the treaty that established the International Criminal Court (ICC)
The US  informed the UN Secretary General that they no longer intend to become states parties and, as such, have no legal obligations arising from their signature of the Statute.
Thus the US doesn't recognise the idea of international war crimes, genocide, etc etc. 
This goes along with the US being found guilty of state sponsored terrorism against the people of Nicuragua 

The Republic of Nicaragua v. The United States of America (1986) was a case where the International Court of Justice (ICJ) held that the U.S. had violated international law by supporting the Contras in their rebellion against the Sandinistas and by mining Nicaragua's harbors. The case was decided in favor of Nicaragua and against the United States with the awarding of reparations to Nicaragua.
The Court had 15 final decisions upon which it voted. The Court found in its verdict that the United States was "in breach of its obligations under customary international law not to use force against another State", "not to intervene in its affairs", "not to violate its sovereignty", "not to interrupt peaceful maritime commerce", and "in breach of its obligations under Article XIX of the Treaty of Friendship, Commerce and Navigation between the Parties signed at Managua on 21 January 1956." In Statement 9, the Court stated that while the U.S. encouraged human rights violations by the Contras by the manual entitled Psychological Operations in Guerrilla Warfare, this did not make such acts attributable to the U.S.
The United States refused to participate in the proceedings, arguing that the ICJ lacked jurisdiction to hear the case.

This is just one of many international treaties the US has decided not to be a part of. Another is The United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) which the US signed but has not ratified it.  This establishes things like international waters, exclusive economic zones, territorial waters etc.
So whenever you hear anyone complain that such and such a country is in violation of international agreements, remember that the US didnt think those agreements were worth shit. 
... and then theres the Gun violence and school shootings >

This gave me some research reading for the new year. Appreciate the post and info!!! >

np enjoy... verify your sources ;) >

Damn you're like a unicorn of Reddit... respectful and prompt...where has this mentality gone these days??? >

giddyup :)
on the other hand I did just call someone a village idiot in another cmv >

Lol well....welcome to the internet >

Well, yeah, living in the US is better than living in a lot of countries where you can't have access even to the bare minimum. 
But, for example. I live in Brazil, it's a developing country, mostly poor. I have lived for a short while in the US as a student, but I have kept contact with a bunch of friends I made there. And I have to tell you, if anything, I don't think Americans complain enough.
If I was from the most powerful country in the world, and the government refused to guarantee access to healthcare, higher education and even basic labor rights, like paid maternity leave, I'd be furious. Specially considering they spend billions, maybe trillions, of tax payer money a year to support the military. 
When I found out about "PTO" (paid time off) and that sick days and vacation days come from the same "pool" of days, I was shocked. Like, I live in a third world country and sick days are sick days. If I have a doctor's note, I won't have that day discounted from my salary, and for sure it won't be deducted from my vacation days. I have a very dear friend who lives in the US, and they seem to be oblivious about how absurd the treatment of the working class is in the US. Even if you're pretty privileged, in the middle class, there's still the risk you'll be in debt for life if you have any health problems. You're not guaranteed to have paid maternal leave. Companies are legally allowed to repress unionization. It's a shit show, really. Employers can walk all over workers, and it seems like most Americans aren't even aware how revolting that is.
So, yeah, I think Americans should be aware of the privileged position of their nation in the world, but really, if the working class in America organized (the way it did in the past), and pushed for better conditions, if they were ANGRY at the mistreatment they receive from their government, it would set a precedent for the entire world. So, I don't think Americans complain enough, to be honest. I think they should be striking, they should be, idk, setting fire to cars and breaking windows. The fact that they come from one of the richest countries and don't have rights even poorer countries do should be RAGE inducing. 
I just feel a lot of empathy for the working class in the USA. What they have to go through is heart breaking. And the government has done a great job keeping them ignorant and alienated from their own suffering. This whole "the USA is the best country in the world" bullshit. I hope this generation, that has access to the internet and can find different narratives, will be the one to lead the fight for better labor rights, public health and public education. >

You’re making excuses and justifying bad things by saying “they could be worse”. Which is technically true. You could live someplace where the government can kill you for being gay, for example. 
But your argument comes down to this: “it’s not THAT bad to have your legs cut off, because hey, you could have stage four lung cancer instead”. 
That doesn’t mean losing your legs and your life being full of immense struggles “isn’t that bad”. 
Look at poverty rates in the US. Look at how many of us go bankrupt because of medical bills. Look at how many people work multiple jobs and still can’t even save for retirement. Look at how many people want to have kids but can’t because they can barely afford to care for themselves. 
Sure, the US may not be a terminal cancer patient. But that alone doesn’t mean things “aren’t that bad”. >

Not really making excuses. I think it’s 100% shitty what goes on there. But to a certain degree, do you not think people should be aware of the privileges they still have over others? You can suffer and be oppressed in some ways and still be privileged in others. 
I could also complain about the issues I face living in Europe and it’s be warranted. But to pretend and not be aware I don’t live in one of the best places in the world would be facetious. We can complain about our circumstances without having to ignore what we also heavily benefit from.
So I guess I should say; the USA is relatively speaking not that bad of a place to live. Looking and comparing it with most other options in the world. >

Could you be more specific with your view?
"Not that bad compared to other things" isn't really saying much.
The only precise statement that this can be translated to is "the USA at least slightly better than the very worst place to live in the world"
Is that the view that you actually want changed? >

I do not believe the USA is only slightly better than the worst places in the world; I believe that it’s a LOT better.  I’m aware it’s not as good over there as over here, but I would take America any day over most other places in the world that aren’t Europe. I don’t see how it isn’t significantly better to live in than most 3rd world countries. >

Sure, but then who are you arguing against here? Not many people are going to disagree that it's better to live in America than Somalia. 
This just comes off as an attempt to belittle people who have very real problems.
"There are children who are starving in Africa" is, while technically true, not a helpful response to "this chicken is dangerously undercooked". >


An attempt to belittle people who have very real problems

The thing is that making large encompassing statements like the one I used as an example has a similar effect. By portraying America as a hell on Earth it often undermines many other countries with real problems, problems that are arguably more significant. I don’t doubt people have real problems and I sympathize with them. I say I’m privileged for living in Europe but I still come from a poor home, and have had problems getting by. I’m still thankful for what I have, honestly, and I’m careful with my words. That’s just how I see it.
However yes, I do admit that it may have been a popular view than I thought it was. It’s the impression I got from seeing Americans talk about this. It might be an uncommon view regardless. >

What may be happening here is you are seeing people with real, justified complaints, and because you are so far away from these issues yourself you just generalise their issues to "they are just saying that America is hell on earth".
You are exaggerating their complaints and then turning them in to the least justified version of them.
You are the one saying "people are saying America is hell on earth" but you're not actually showing anyone saying that. >

Hmm. Maybe. There’s a certain amount of extra sympathy I could care to have, I think you are right. But I do feel for most living there. I talk to American friends all the time and I feel awful for many’s situations, and wish I could help. This isn’t a gross majority of people or Americans I’m talking about, because most are woke enough about what’s happening in the world to say the least, but a select few. >

Not helpful >

Sure >

I would like a clarification.  Is the US "better than sub saharan africa but worse than germany"? >

I would say so, yes. >

Ok I have no objections with this, but setting the poorest and worse quality of life region as a bar for US to compare itself to is pretty...mediocre? >

So an easy way to split it is you have a few tiers of countries most of Europe and Canada USA are in the top tier.
Middle East would say be bottom or second to last if your a woman.
So your in the top tier in America but for being so much richer like 30 to 50% per capita and still the lowest average of our group. And our average is low on this tier so plenty of easy improvements. >

America is a nice place to live if you’re well off. Probably the best on the planet. But since so few people are that well off, almost no one gets to enjoy that. >

I think a lot of the time, people who complain how bad it is here, are not trying to convince anyone outside the United States, but are talking directly to the large contingent here that insists the United States is the best country in the world. I don’t often come across people who say this is one of the worst countries in the world, but I know a lot of people who complain about our country’s problems, myself included, because it’s so upsetting that a lot of people here don’t see the problems as big enough to give up one iota of “freedom” for. >

Women can go to college and have abortions….even if it’s only to 6 weeks. >

A lot of people that want to see big changes in America don’t hate it, they want it to be better. America has gone through many big changes that have all made it a better place. There are obviously going to be people that say USA is a terrible place, but not many people really say that. Don’t confuse the people that want positive change with the very few that hate it >

I just look at the objective fact that many people who flee countries flee to the US. Most immigrants are very appreciative of the US, way more so than the typical person born and raised in the US who takes it for granted. They have too many luxuries and don't truly struggle like people in sub Saharan Africa or rural china or other third world places struggle, so they have too much time to think and whine >

It's not the worst but you don't have to ignore the massive issues that makes you feel embarrassed for our country.  
Don't confuse a vocal minority of people saying they hate America or the nihilism that is rampant via one pandemic with absolutes. >

BEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD 🦅🦅 in all seriousness, it is a privilege to be born and raised American and to know the meaning of liberty. how great is it to be able to absolutely shit on every aspect of our country every day and still be able to reap the benefits of it?! to live and breathe knowing that you can invent your own identity and practice whatever religion you want and pursue whatever kind of future you want and someone will cross the ocean and die to protect that right for you and they will fight and lay down their lives so that a less fortunate country may get to know the privilege of ignorant freedom one day >

I am a American. Born and raised and never left my state at all. Life's always been easy except for financial struggles and personal struggles. I'm happy living in America. It's not as bad as people say and I don't have any plans on leaving. >

I have lived in the US all my life. I was born and raised in Texas and have lived in Texas all my life. I have traveled Europe extensively and I  still believe in my country.
The complainers are our young and a large percentage of mellenials are always spouting about something yet. They are financially secure in many cases. They have great lives.  My children are millenials.
I'm thankful I was raised in the US and raised my children to love their country. 
I went to Africa my first time in 1984. For the first times in my life I saw human atrocities happen right before my eyes. They told us that we had to stay very close together while the locked their own people behind gates so they could not get to us. Illnevef forget how crushed my heart felt for those people.
I love the USA
I do not like Biden or what the left has brought to our table. I totally believe the left wants to remove all of our freedoms. >

it depends on where you live in America >

I mean, if you're willing to put up with the insane cost of living and politics, yeah it's cool. >

Depends on where in USA one is located AND on who one is in the various pecking orders. >

It's a good place. There's a reason so many immigrants come every year