comment: >
  
  
  Because there’s definitely some rules in the Quran on what “good” Muslim men should look like and I’m pretty sure there isn’t a line in there about crocs, Hollister t-shirts and acid washed jeans. 
  
  How does that outfit not follow the Qur'anox requirements for men? Men and women have to cover their awrah. A t shirt and jeans does that for a Man. I.E. covers from their naval to knees  and their shoulders. I'm your title you use the example of shorts and if the shorts are too short then they don't cover the awrah and that is a a problem, also if they were to wear jeans that didn't cover their behind that would also be a problem. But where do you get the idea "western" clothes that cover the appropriate parts are prohibited?
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  I'm going to address the specific point  "it's not about Islam"
  It's absolutely about Islam.  The culture, values, and ideals in Islam support that pattern of behavior, and we can have a separate, more nuanced discussion about that if you want, but to take Islam out of the equation entirely is wrong in most cases.
  Remove the specifics from your statement and it reads "if your partner is upholding a belief, and you are upholding that belief in a differing way or to a differing level, then it isn't about the belief"
  My wife definitely only goes to church because she's Christian.  I don't, but I haven't abandoned my faith either.  Is it fair to say that my wife going to church not about Christianity?  What if she dresses modestly for the same reason?  What if she dresses very modestly? 
  Again, I'm not arguing the morality or consistency of Islam or any of the culture/behaviors surrounding it, only that Islam is a meaningful factor in the lives and behavior of women who routinely wear clothes associated with Islam. >
  
  People have a hard time understanding that each religion has these subtle things that vary from region to region and person to person. Mormon women for example are called sluts if they show their shoulders >
  
  Not even just religions.  Dress like a biker or a goth for an interview or court hearing and see how people react.  We trip out about hijabs, but in the US, the wrong outfit in a courtroom can have an impact on if and how a person is sentenced. >
  
  Unless the woman is choosing to dress that way.
  Edit: so some of my neighbors are Muslim. Daughters dress in secular American fashion; shorts in warmer weather, no head covering, exposed shoulders at times. The mother still chooses to wear head covering about half the time and the rest of the time not. It's obviously her choice because 1) she's my friend and we've talked enough I know she's making the choice for herself and 2) it would make no sense if her husband was being a domineering asshat towards her only half the time and none at all to their teenage daughters. All those people commenting that no Muslim women could possibly choose to cover her head of her own volition are bigoted af. >
  
  Agreed but consent can get very blurry when a lot of these first or second generation immigrant communities are involved. The family pressure, risk of ostracism, and the highly patriarchal structure are all major factors of the choice imho. 
  If they’re single or out from under their fathers thumb and still choose to do it then yes of course. >
  
  societal pressure will always exist. There's societal pressure for women to keep their hair long, to wear makeup, to shave their legs, to dress in an exposing way or else be called "frumpy" for example. 
  And we can go even further to say there's societal pressure to make people wear shoes. Shirts. Pants. Literally anything. >
  
  Usually your family doesn’t threaten to disown you and cut you off if you don’t shave your legs. >
  
  statistically speaking, usually muslim women are also not threatened like this if they do not veil. however it does happen, and it’s important to talk about 
  further, your point was about social pressure encouraging certain bodily/fashion choices. therefore the issue is in the pressure itself. if you think shaved legs are okay because some women don’t face backlash for being natural, then you must also accept that some women don’t face backlash for not veiling >
  
  I’m…not sure I agree. Pressure is just force, it’s words. It’s the relationship to the speaker that matters. That’s why I’m confused why you keep bringing up the word societal. I was trying to hone in on the relationships. >
  
  I have a pretty diverse workplace and I have colleagues who are Canadian Muslim women, who live alone and they won't even appear on Teams from their house without their hair covered. The most chill lady I knew about it was a Bangladeshi-born Muslim woman who would just tuck her hair up under a toque if it was just going to be me (a woman) and her--again-- on teams from her apartment she lived in alone in Canada. Who is pressuring her in that scenario? Like, I'm also a woman, from what I understand she doesn't technically need to even cover up for me. She chooses to because it feels right to her. She keeps her camera off in almost all meetings, and if you try to video call her, she'll call you back in like 5 minutes after she gets her headscarf on our gets her hair tucked securely. 
  When I've asked about it (I haven't often, it's none of my business what people choose to wear and why), Muslim women describe feeling naked without their headcovers. Just like some women won't leave their house without doing their makeup or wearing a bra or a wig or whatever. >
  
  
  Muslim women describe feeling naked without their headcovers
  
  And you think childhood indoctrination, familial/societal pressure hasn't played a role in fixing up an image in their own mind of an "ideal" woman and now they are probably restricting themselves because of that. 
  I'm not saying there isn't even a single woman who likes to wear niquab/burqa but that doesn't mean these are not symbols of patriarchy and subjugation of women. Indoctrination is a powerful tool. The indoctrinated police themselves, that's the beauty of it. Fear of an invisible, most powerful, omnipresent eye is very potent. >
  
  I already said that there can be, has to be, some women who do it of their own volition but that doesn't change the fact that it is a sign of oppression and subjugation. Women in Iran are getting arrested and killed because they don't want to wear niquab or burqua. So we can't point to a few women living in free world and say 'oh it's just a personal choice and not oppression'
  People in India used to burn widows in funeral pyre of their husband. I'm sure we can find a few cases where they did it coz they actually didn't want to live without their husband. That is not a proof that it was not a horrible practice just to subjugate women, sold to them as tradition too. >
  
  Except for this little part from your own link
  
  It is haram to imitate the polytheists and unbelievers in their manner of dress
  
  So if a lot of unbelievers are wearing shorts, and you know that they do, then I’m not sure this answer is slam dunk you think it is lol >
  
  that's not what that means. The islamic code of dress for men is to cover from knees to chest. this part means you can't/shouldn't dress like an open follower of other religions
  and, when it was written, most people dressed very obviously like their religion. >
  
  first of all, westerners would actually not fall under the umbrella of polytheist or nonbeliever, since the quran often considers christians and jewish people “people of the book”. this is why they were taxed differently in certain caliphates 
  further, the quote is referring to specifically religiously important garb. shorts do not qualify. we know this because islam is a syncretic religion, and so secular clothing within various regions of the islamic world varies greatly. for example, persian men, arab men, nigerian men, indonesian men, and pakistani men all have wildly different styles of dress due to the syncretic nature of islam. 
  btw women from those regions also dress and veil in very different ways, influenced by the needs/clothing of the region. there’s actually a HUGE amount of diversity in literally just different ways to tie the hijab! all influenced by local needs and unique local culture. 
  therefore, one can glean that the application of this is in religiously coded items, such as a priest’s garb, a cross necklace, or a nun’s habit. 
  and also, shorts are actually not a western invention. shorts have been used throughout history in most societies. so you can’t really claim that they are “unique to nonbelievers.” 
  i get that you want to be edgy, but it’s pretty clear that this interpretation is a reach. >
  
  I think that if the man is forcing her to wear the burqa and niqab, that's a problem, and most of the time when people in western countries see a Muslim husband and wife walking down the street and the woman is in full Muslim attire, they have this assumption that she's only wearing this because her husband forced her too, and she lacks agency. In actuality, most Muslim women choose to dress like this and aren't forced to. I'm not saying there are cases where husbands are pricks who force this, I'm just saying a lot of Muslim women, actually, most, are more comfortable rocking the hijab or burqa or niqab because that's their culture and they have a love and attachment for it. 
  I come from a Muslim family and 90% of the women I grew up with who are related to me dress in Islamic attire and literally they all just prefer that. My cousin is about 40 years old and her husband is in his mid-40s. 
  She literally wears a full hijab with the full thobe and everything every time she's outside the house. She also prays 5 times day, and follows the religion strictly.
  Her husband doesn't dress in Islamic attire. You'll often see him walking around in his soccer outfits while he's with her while she's rocking her attire, and he doesn't give a shit that she's dressed that way. He doesn't force it upon her at all, in fact, I don't even think he prays. But if you saw them out together on a summer day, you'd see him rocking some shorts that go slightly above his kneecaps with his favorite soccer jersey on and her in the hijab and assume he's a hypocritical asshole who wants to control her. When in reality, she just wears what she wants and if she wasn't dressed that way, he wouldn't give af.
  Let me tell you something, my friend. Westerners always assume that Islam is a religion where men just oppress women and women all want to be out here rocking short shorts with their cleavages out like they do in Canada, UK and U.S.A. This is all BS propaganda that's been pushed by the western media. 
  You wanna know the truth?
  Women in Muslim countries for the most part are a lot more conservative with how they dress even when they're fuckin atheists. I literally know so many women from my home country that are straight-up atheists and agnostics, but they just like the Arabian swag. On top of that, the others are extremely attached to their Muslim culture, even more so than the men actually. This is true in most places because women for the most part tend to be the cultural carriers. 
  I'll tell you something I noticed about Muslim women and western women. This is from dating women who are Muslim and not Muslim and growing up with both.
  If it's 10pm and i'm going to mcdonalds run and I'm taking my muslim ex with me, or my cousin with me, or my mom with me, they quickly hurry to find their cutest looking hijab and take 10 mins to put it on properly and try a bunch on till they find the one they want. I'm not telling them to put it on, in fact i'm even annoyed that they're taking so long and woulda even preferred it if they just came to the car wearing whatever they were wearing when we were chilling on the couch. But she wants to do what she wants to do so whatever right.
  Now if i'm with an ex that's western and were going to a late night mcdonalds run, she runs off to the bathroom and decides to put some make up on, and there's nothing I can do about that.
  The same way alot of girls in the west just love the aesthetic freedom and comfort of rocking something like make-up, that's actually exactly how muslim women feel about their hijab and other muslim attire. In fact, they see it as an extension of their aesthetic freedom.
  Exit your western bubble and check out other places.