comment: >
  
  In your example, It’s possible that, that particular women is more religious than husband, it’s also possible that the husband, as you said, is hypocrite; there are many possibilities. In any case it’s none of your business highlighting who’s hypocrite or who should be wearing what. You should stop worrying about what people, including Muslim men, wear. You should also stop dictating what constitutes hypocrisy. Everyone is a hypocrite in their own way, shape or form.
context: /u/nowlan101 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
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  I'm going to address the specific point  "it's not about Islam"
  It's absolutely about Islam.  The culture, values, and ideals in Islam support that pattern of behavior, and we can have a separate, more nuanced discussion about that if you want, but to take Islam out of the equation entirely is wrong in most cases.
  Remove the specifics from your statement and it reads "if your partner is upholding a belief, and you are upholding that belief in a differing way or to a differing level, then it isn't about the belief"
  My wife definitely only goes to church because she's Christian.  I don't, but I haven't abandoned my faith either.  Is it fair to say that my wife going to church not about Christianity?  What if she dresses modestly for the same reason?  What if she dresses very modestly? 
  Again, I'm not arguing the morality or consistency of Islam or any of the culture/behaviors surrounding it, only that Islam is a meaningful factor in the lives and behavior of women who routinely wear clothes associated with Islam. >
  
  People have a hard time understanding that each religion has these subtle things that vary from region to region and person to person. Mormon women for example are called sluts if they show their shoulders >
  
  Not even just religions.  Dress like a biker or a goth for an interview or court hearing and see how people react.  We trip out about hijabs, but in the US, the wrong outfit in a courtroom can have an impact on if and how a person is sentenced. >
  
  Unless the woman is choosing to dress that way.
  Edit: so some of my neighbors are Muslim. Daughters dress in secular American fashion; shorts in warmer weather, no head covering, exposed shoulders at times. The mother still chooses to wear head covering about half the time and the rest of the time not. It's obviously her choice because 1) she's my friend and we've talked enough I know she's making the choice for herself and 2) it would make no sense if her husband was being a domineering asshat towards her only half the time and none at all to their teenage daughters. All those people commenting that no Muslim women could possibly choose to cover her head of her own volition are bigoted af. >
  
  Agreed but consent can get very blurry when a lot of these first or second generation immigrant communities are involved. The family pressure, risk of ostracism, and the highly patriarchal structure are all major factors of the choice imho. 
  If they’re single or out from under their fathers thumb and still choose to do it then yes of course. >
  
  societal pressure will always exist. There's societal pressure for women to keep their hair long, to wear makeup, to shave their legs, to dress in an exposing way or else be called "frumpy" for example. 
  And we can go even further to say there's societal pressure to make people wear shoes. Shirts. Pants. Literally anything. >
  
  Usually your family doesn’t threaten to disown you and cut you off if you don’t shave your legs. >
  
  statistically speaking, usually muslim women are also not threatened like this if they do not veil. however it does happen, and it’s important to talk about 
  further, your point was about social pressure encouraging certain bodily/fashion choices. therefore the issue is in the pressure itself. if you think shaved legs are okay because some women don’t face backlash for being natural, then you must also accept that some women don’t face backlash for not veiling >
  
  I’m…not sure I agree. Pressure is just force, it’s words. It’s the relationship to the speaker that matters. That’s why I’m confused why you keep bringing up the word societal. I was trying to hone in on the relationships. >
  
  I have a pretty diverse workplace and I have colleagues who are Canadian Muslim women, who live alone and they won't even appear on Teams from their house without their hair covered. The most chill lady I knew about it was a Bangladeshi-born Muslim woman who would just tuck her hair up under a toque if it was just going to be me (a woman) and her--again-- on teams from her apartment she lived in alone in Canada. Who is pressuring her in that scenario? Like, I'm also a woman, from what I understand she doesn't technically need to even cover up for me. She chooses to because it feels right to her. She keeps her camera off in almost all meetings, and if you try to video call her, she'll call you back in like 5 minutes after she gets her headscarf on our gets her hair tucked securely. 
  When I've asked about it (I haven't often, it's none of my business what people choose to wear and why), Muslim women describe feeling naked without their headcovers. Just like some women won't leave their house without doing their makeup or wearing a bra or a wig or whatever. >
  
  
  Muslim women describe feeling naked without their headcovers
  
  And you think childhood indoctrination, familial/societal pressure hasn't played a role in fixing up an image in their own mind of an "ideal" woman and now they are probably restricting themselves because of that. 
  I'm not saying there isn't even a single woman who likes to wear niquab/burqa but that doesn't mean these are not symbols of patriarchy and subjugation of women. Indoctrination is a powerful tool. The indoctrinated police themselves, that's the beauty of it. Fear of an invisible, most powerful, omnipresent eye is very potent. >
  
  I already said that there can be, has to be, some women who do it of their own volition but that doesn't change the fact that it is a sign of oppression and subjugation. Women in Iran are getting arrested and killed because they don't want to wear niquab or burqua. So we can't point to a few women living in free world and say 'oh it's just a personal choice and not oppression'
  People in India used to burn widows in funeral pyre of their husband. I'm sure we can find a few cases where they did it coz they actually didn't want to live without their husband. That is not a proof that it was not a horrible practice just to subjugate women, sold to them as tradition too. >
  
  Except for this little part from your own link
  
  It is haram to imitate the polytheists and unbelievers in their manner of dress
  
  So if a lot of unbelievers are wearing shorts, and you know that they do, then I’m not sure this answer is slam dunk you think it is lol >
  
  that's not what that means. The islamic code of dress for men is to cover from knees to chest. this part means you can't/shouldn't dress like an open follower of other religions
  and, when it was written, most people dressed very obviously like their religion. >
  
  first of all, westerners would actually not fall under the umbrella of polytheist or nonbeliever, since the quran often considers christians and jewish people “people of the book”. this is why they were taxed differently in certain caliphates 
  further, the quote is referring to specifically religiously important garb. shorts do not qualify. we know this because islam is a syncretic religion, and so secular clothing within various regions of the islamic world varies greatly. for example, persian men, arab men, nigerian men, indonesian men, and pakistani men all have wildly different styles of dress due to the syncretic nature of islam. 
  btw women from those regions also dress and veil in very different ways, influenced by the needs/clothing of the region. there’s actually a HUGE amount of diversity in literally just different ways to tie the hijab! all influenced by local needs and unique local culture. 
  therefore, one can glean that the application of this is in religiously coded items, such as a priest’s garb, a cross necklace, or a nun’s habit. 
  and also, shorts are actually not a western invention. shorts have been used throughout history in most societies. so you can’t really claim that they are “unique to nonbelievers.” 
  i get that you want to be edgy, but it’s pretty clear that this interpretation is a reach. >
  
  I think that if the man is forcing her to wear the burqa and niqab, that's a problem, and most of the time when people in western countries see a Muslim husband and wife walking down the street and the woman is in full Muslim attire, they have this assumption that she's only wearing this because her husband forced her too, and she lacks agency. In actuality, most Muslim women choose to dress like this and aren't forced to. I'm not saying there are cases where husbands are pricks who force this, I'm just saying a lot of Muslim women, actually, most, are more comfortable rocking the hijab or burqa or niqab because that's their culture and they have a love and attachment for it. 
  I come from a Muslim family and 90% of the women I grew up with who are related to me dress in Islamic attire and literally they all just prefer that. My cousin is about 40 years old and her husband is in his mid-40s. 
  She literally wears a full hijab with the full thobe and everything every time she's outside the house. She also prays 5 times day, and follows the religion strictly.
  Her husband doesn't dress in Islamic attire. You'll often see him walking around in his soccer outfits while he's with her while she's rocking her attire, and he doesn't give a shit that she's dressed that way. He doesn't force it upon her at all, in fact, I don't even think he prays. But if you saw them out together on a summer day, you'd see him rocking some shorts that go slightly above his kneecaps with his favorite soccer jersey on and her in the hijab and assume he's a hypocritical asshole who wants to control her. When in reality, she just wears what she wants and if she wasn't dressed that way, he wouldn't give af.
  Let me tell you something, my friend. Westerners always assume that Islam is a religion where men just oppress women and women all want to be out here rocking short shorts with their cleavages out like they do in Canada, UK and U.S.A. This is all BS propaganda that's been pushed by the western media. 
  You wanna know the truth?
  Women in Muslim countries for the most part are a lot more conservative with how they dress even when they're fuckin atheists. I literally know so many women from my home country that are straight-up atheists and agnostics, but they just like the Arabian swag. On top of that, the others are extremely attached to their Muslim culture, even more so than the men actually. This is true in most places because women for the most part tend to be the cultural carriers. 
  I'll tell you something I noticed about Muslim women and western women. This is from dating women who are Muslim and not Muslim and growing up with both.
  If it's 10pm and i'm going to mcdonalds run and I'm taking my muslim ex with me, or my cousin with me, or my mom with me, they quickly hurry to find their cutest looking hijab and take 10 mins to put it on properly and try a bunch on till they find the one they want. I'm not telling them to put it on, in fact i'm even annoyed that they're taking so long and woulda even preferred it if they just came to the car wearing whatever they were wearing when we were chilling on the couch. But she wants to do what she wants to do so whatever right.
  Now if i'm with an ex that's western and were going to a late night mcdonalds run, she runs off to the bathroom and decides to put some make up on, and there's nothing I can do about that.
  The same way alot of girls in the west just love the aesthetic freedom and comfort of rocking something like make-up, that's actually exactly how muslim women feel about their hijab and other muslim attire. In fact, they see it as an extension of their aesthetic freedom.
  Exit your western bubble and check out other places. >
  
  
  Because there’s definitely some rules in the Quran on what “good” Muslim men should look like and I’m pretty sure there isn’t a line in there about crocs, Hollister t-shirts and acid washed jeans. 
  
  How does that outfit not follow the Qur'anox requirements for men? Men and women have to cover their awrah. A t shirt and jeans does that for a Man. I.E. covers from their naval to knees  and their shoulders. I'm your title you use the example of shorts and if the shorts are too short then they don't cover the awrah and that is a a problem, also if they were to wear jeans that didn't cover their behind that would also be a problem. But where do you get the idea "western" clothes that cover the appropriate parts are prohibited? >
  
  But by that logic Muslim men should be able to go shirtless in public too. The problem is the awrah is the very minimum requirement, but Islam clearly says men and women should both still dress modestly yet in these cases the men do not. They wear tight revealing clothes thar show off their body, muscles, etc.
  So many of these men even post thirst pics, shirtless content, heck even full on underwear content on Instagram while you see the women in their lives are fully covered. >
  
  
  But by that logic Muslim men should be able to go shirtless in public too.
  
  It is at least makrooh for a Muslim man to go around without covering his shoulders, and I said covering from naval to knee and the shoulders
  
  The problem is the awrah is the very minimum requirement, but Islam clearly says men and women should both still dress modestly
  
  True but what part of a well fitting, outfit of jeans and a t shirt is immodest?. A super right t shirt or jeans that don't cover the behind is a a problem but there's nothing inherently wrong with a t shirt or jeans.
  
  They wear tight revealing clothes thar show off their body, muscles, etc.
  
  Yes that is immodest and they shouldn't do that, I never said that was acceptable 
  
  So many of these men even post thirst pics, shirtless content, heck even full on underwear content on Instagram while you see the women in their lives are fully covered.
  
  Again that's not acceptable and I never said it was. Especially underwear but even thirst traps. All I was saying was a normal t shirt and jeans for men can be modest. >
  
  
  I said covering from naval to knee and the shoulders
  
  Ok sorry I didn't catch that, I just went with the definition of the awrah accepted by the majority which is only navel to the knees.
  
  Yes that is immodest and they shouldn't do that, I never said that was acceptable 
  Again that's not acceptable and I never said it was.
  
  Ok I'm glad then you agree, those are the men OP is talking about. Heck I've also seen so many men go to beaches and pools wearing swimming trunks while women in their family are completely covered. Which is not ok, those guys are not following things while the girls are, and many of them by force.
  
  True but what part of a well fitting, outfit of jeans and a t shirt is immodest?
  
  While they're not that bad, Western clothing like this is designed in a way that emphasizes the body shape, figure etc and is not modest by Muslim standards. T shirts especially show bare arms and muscles that are attractive. Compare these clothes to thobe or shalwar kameez and you can clearly see which is more modest. Also the original discussion was shorts instead of jeans which do show skin. >
  
  Or, you live in a country where there are powerful people who selectively enforce dress standards. Those powerful people might believe both men and women should dress a certain way (and do so themselves), but only enforce on the wider society the dress standards for women. Perhaps because they want to court the expertise and investment of foreign cultures which won't tolerate every gender being oppressed in such a way.
  Under those circumstances the man wearing the western style clothing isn't necessarily a hypocrite because while they may not care what the women wear, the morality police do. And the morality police operate under the direction of some old religious leader who themselves wear garb as prescribed by their religious texts, but doesn't make the religious police enforce it on men because without foreign talent their country would just be a pack of violent goat herders. >
  
  Agreed. But I think the husbands/bf’s should try to match whatever the minimum modesty level their women are forced to wear in solidarity though >
  
  Have you asked women who are subject to modesty codes whether that feels like solidarity to them? >
  
  Do you imagine I’d get some sort of consensus out of millions of different women? I’m speaking to some smaller principles I feel are important. If others don’t follow them that’s fine. 
  But there’s nothing wrong with me for having them and some opinions. >
  
  So you can imagine that different modest-dressing women might feel differently, but you feel certain that all husbands of such women are imposing this dress code on their wives out of control? >
  
  I agree, but this is not necessarily a clear cut issue.
  In Muslim countries, where women are being harassed and killed for even accidentally exposing too much, there's no question; this is fucked up, shameful, pathetic, and unambiguously wrong.
  In western societies, where the law and predominant culture places no such restrictions on women, I assume that the vast majority of those who dress this way are making the choice on their own behalf. Assuming that such clothing is objectively less comfortable (probably true, but I don't know), one could argue (and I would) that nobody in their right mind would make such a choice if they were under no pressure at all. What you refer to as "controlling women" could range from a singular, subtle and momentary facial expression that could plausibly (but not necessarily) be interpreted as disapproval, to constant, consistent, explicit and demonstrably credible death threats. The former scenario is clearly not as bad as the latter, and regardless of her reason, any pressure we place on a woman to make a different choice only amplifies the harm. Unless she asks for feedback and/or support, the best thing we can do is mind our own business.
  In a perfect world, there would be no such thing, but I think peer pressure is a part of human nature (and the nature of social animals in general). I think it may be an adaptive trait (an artifact of evolution by natural selection), and it is probably necessary in order for us to learn and thrive and live together in peace. I think we are probably stuck with it. It isn't always beneficial, obviously, and sometimes the cost seems maddeningly pointless and stupid, but it is what it is, and our flaws are part of what makes us beautiful. All we can do is embrace our differences, question what doesn't make sense, and do our best to minimise any harm. To this end, I try to remember that everyone is human, and all behaviour is normal human behaviour; I don't have all the relevant information to understand anyone's behaviour (including my own), so I ask questions, but try not to judge.
  I'm not religious (and I was not raised with religion), so to me, it seems insane that anyone would modify their behaviour to comply with a bunch of arbitrary rules, based on what is essentially a fairy tale. However, I acknowledge that I am doing the same with respect to secular fairy tales that are so ingrained in my culture that I don't even think to question why. For example, the concept of money, and all the pain we put ourselves through to earn it so that we can buy a bunch of crap that we don't really even want, but feel like we need in order to be whole, successful, happy, or acceptable in the eyes of others. This is a way bigger deal than wearing a burqa on a hot day. It's destroying the planet, and I know it's insane, and yet I can't seem to stop buying into it. And to be clear, I obviously HAVE questioned this fairy tale, but I used this example because I think most people will understand my point and agree with it. I have other examples that are more unreasonable, and more harmful, but so ingrained in our culture that it can take years of arguing to convince intelligent people that there is anything to question at all. I have bought into enough insane fairy tales to know with near certainty that there are others that I haven't even thought to question. So, while I don't understand what the fuck these women are thinking, I know that they are not less reasonable, or capable, or fully autonomous than me. They are me, but with slightly different cultural norms, and I wholeheartedly endorse their right to make whatever weird choices they like, regardless of my own personal ethical concerns about their motivations.
  I too have a problem with blatant hypocrisy. If you have a problem with blatant hypocrisy, you should recognise that the same blatant hypocrisy exists in secular western societies, and it would be blatant hypocrisy to point the finger at religion while atheists exhibit the same stupid behaviour. In western cultures, it is often illegal and almost always socially unacceptable for women to go topless in contexts where it is perfectly acceptable for men to do the same. This is no different and no less egregious. While I value modesty and feel disgust towards immodest people, I find the concept of modesty itself to be egregious; this is a blatant example of hypocrisy in myself, and the cognitive dissonance is an ever present plague on my soul. Once again, the best I can do is challenge my own prejudice and aim to minimise harm; I am in no position to judge.
  The situation in Iran is different; women are clearly being oppressed and they are asking for support. Where this is the case, I'm of a mind to liberate them by force and prevent their oppressors from having any contact with women ever again. I don't pretend to know what's best and I'd take my lead from those who are on the ground, experiencing this oppression first hand, but it would make me happy to watch those men live out the rest of their lives alone. It would make me happy to see them die without ever having an opportunity to create another generation of boys and girls to poison and harrass with their toxic ideology. Technically, I don't believe they deserve to suffer, because they can't help being brainwashed, but I'm not about to waste my time defending them when the most practical, efficient, and utilitarian option is to eradicate them from the face of the planet. Fuck them.
  Maybe you already agree with me, but I see the issue as more complicated than what your post conveyed. >
  
  See I thought like this...and then when I was in college there's a huge middle eastern population in a lot of my classes and they are cool af and they are in college in a dorm...meaning they are away from families and won't be caught...and they still wore it because they are devout like Christians are... >
  
  Should I point out the fact that Burqa and Niqab are not actually hijab? You don't necessarily need those for hijab. I am a man, but as far as I can understand without being an Islamic scholar, Hijab is more of a set of requirements for both genders. It's the same for both with the exception being women have to cover their hair. What you are talking about is something that used to happen years ago. Nowadays it's an extreme edge case. If it still happened to be as common as you think, every fourth or fifth woman would be 'wrapped up like a lollipop' as you so eloquently put it. The case you are referring to is a rare edge case which happens mostly in extremely conservative households. Most muslim women wrap a simple shawl and call it a day. >
  
  This double standard exists because the double standard is baked into most of these religions. So you’re saying you’re fine with people practicing their religion and not trying to bash the religion, but really that is where the problem is >
  
  Hmm I'm not sure I agree. I agree with you that, in a sense, the rule is innately sexist because it applies differently (and more minimally) to men than women. However, it is also true that male bodies are just treated differently in society than female bodies. Probably due to differences in libido and power between the sexes. I genuinely do think that women who are dressed in a way that is considered revealing, whatever that means in their culture, are likely to be taken less seriously as well as encounter more unwanted sexual attention. It's unfair, but we have to make decisions based on what society is, not what we think it should be. >
  
  What about women in societies wear toplessness is normal? >
  
  I mean, if that's the norm it's the norm. But in societies where it's not the norm, going out topless would probably attract a lot of unwanted sexual attention. When you break the social norms of a culture, your deviance from that norm communicates something to others. >
  
  When it’s not the norm, going out topless is more offensive. I don’t think unwanted sexual attention factors into it as much in half of the world. I live on a Muslim island in Southern Thailand and going topless would get me death stares, not sex stares. It would be extremely offensive to the culture here. >
  
  Everyone saying “if it’s her choice it’s all good”… what about the vast majority of the world where it’s not her choice? >
  
  What do you mean? There are only a few countries and regions where hijabs are mandatory by law. Iran, Saudi, Afghanistan and parts of Indonesia are all I can think of. “Vast majority of the world” is exaggerated. 
  I think it’s a stereotype of the middle east. I don’t have the stats, but I would say a majority of Muslim women are not required to wear a hijab by law. A similar number of women live in countries where hijabs are banned in governments and schools like Turkey and Tunisia. And don’t get me started about France. 
  Yes, there are crippling societal and familial pressures in many muslim countries, but that’s not something unique to Islam. I appreciate you caring about women’s freedoms, but you comment is a little uninformed. >
  
  I happen to live in Russia. There are some eastern parts of the country where women have to veil otherwise, they might be punished physically or even killed by their family members. Wearing a hijab or anything is not mandatory by law. However, social pressure is so high that you are forced to do that. I think the same thing happens in lots of other countries and I’m not sure that it’s true that in the vast majority of the world women really have a choice >
  
  Exactly. Women do not have a choice in those places, no matter how hard this weird one love world wide liberal mindset wants to push… >
  
  Maybe she's just cold?