comment: >
  
  I don't have an interest in teaching, a few thousand a person wouldn't change that. It seems like easy money which is appealing, just wouldn't enjoy it...   
  Who is going to hire you for coding projects if you have never programmed or lack experience?
  To your point, why would most employers want to hire someone fresh out of a bootcamp? It's the same problem. A lot of these bootcamps (to my knowledge) teach javascript based frameworks which while useful, doesn't make sense for many employers. If I ran a dev agency or software company, I'd be equally skeptical of a dev fresh out of a bootcamp. "Oh, cool, you learned react in 6 months. We're going to have to pass, we're a Magento shop"
  Not really trying to shit on bootcamps or routes that get people to where they want to go, it just seems so hit or miss. I know some can succeed but it seems likely the majority of people will take out a loan and just go into debt while the few that do succeed are a good fit for the job and would have succeeded regardless.
context: /u/clicksangiggles (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
  All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
  Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
  ^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards >
  
  I work in the tech industry. I've worked at FAANG companies and startups alike. I know many of my coworkers who broke in through bootcamps, even if it's anecdotal. As someone in the tech industry I can tell you people do not scoff at these bootcamps.
  You may not get a job at a Google or Facebook right off the bat but you will land a decent and well-paying job if you are good. Most get their start at decent startups and then work their way up. A bootcamp can't make you a good programmer but it can give you the curriculum and resources you need to get there. >
  
  "If you are good". That's the thing, it takes more than 6 months. Do you know how many of your coworkers had some dev chops before going into those programs? Bootcamps can be valuable, all education is valuable, but for the cost, I have a hard time believing it's worth it for 99% of new devs. At the end of the day, people just need experience which they can get from tutorials and freelance work for a fraction of the cost. >
  
  I was a line cook at the beginning of the pandemic 2.5 years ago. I took one of the boot camps and now make $160k total compensation. My first job was like $55k, but I changed jobs twice which is the easiest way to boost your salary.
  What you fail to realize is most people at the bottom of the hill don’t even know enough to understand the path to get started. So, even though it’s true you need to get experience outside of a boot camp these boot camps are extremely valuable for job placement and mentoring.
  And, no I didn’t have any experience “coding” beforehand, just a natural interest in technology and quick learner >
  
  That's awesome, glad that path worked out for you. >
  
  You have dozens of replies talking about how bootcamps turned out well for them or their coworkers. 
  What's going to convince you to award a delta? >
  
  a little more time and probably figuring out how to award a delta >
  
  Type !delta anywhere in a reply to whoever you want to give a delta to >
  
  sweet, thanks for the tip >
  
  I’ve seen many people succeed out of a six month coding bootcamp.  
  What do you need exactly to change your view? >
  
  Success stories, mostly. Seen a few, becoming a little more open to the idea. Just based on my own experience learning this stuff and the predatory nature of for profit education, I'm a little cynical. I know some people can land jobs out of those camps but a lot of those people could have been self-taught and succeeded just the same. I've tried to find stats from some of these places but didn't see much. If 90% of people pay and fail, while 10% land jobs, I would still argue it's a scam. If the rate of success is higher, it would change my mind. >
  
  
  I know some people can land jobs out of those camps but a lot of those people could have been self-taught and succeeded just the same.
  
  You seem to think that since you  managed to succeed being self taught, anyone can.
  Learning programming by being guided in the right direction can be a far more efficient learning path than learning by making all pitfalls by yourself. And once you're self taught, a second step is to convince employers that you know your stuff, and you taught yourself well.
  For you,  specifically, that worked out. But doing a coding bootcamp makes it both easier to learn, and afterwards easier to get employed.
  Sure, some places are scams/too expensive, but it is a very viable route to take for many. >
  
  I’m self taught and I really wish I had been taught by others. I also freelanced most of my career and wish I had just worked FT for at least four years before going out on my own. >
  
  My friend just finished one and landed a gig making $90k right out of a boot camp. Granted, he had a rec from an employee inside the company, but still had to get consideration based on his profile from the boot camp. >
  
  How long has he been at his job? I've seen a lot of new devs get hired and fired within months because they couldn't keep up. That's where most of my skepticism comes from. If that's not the experience for most of these graduates, that's great. If those camps are actually putting people on the right path, the cost is justified, I suppose. >
  
  He's been there prob 5 or 6 months at this point. And he's the kind of smart and personable guy that wouldn't have issues retaining a job once he gets one.
  I am curious at what point these stories will change your view. I haven't known tons of people who've done this, and an n of one doesn't get you very far in establishing a pattern. But this thread is full of success stories that you seem to be acknowledging are counter to your expectation without awarding deltas. I'm not married to deltas, but a lot of people here are. >
  
  My view is starting shift. It's good to see more positive stories than negative ones.  I've seen a lot of good developers get fired due to performance, etc. My assumption is the higher the salary, the higher the expectation so people fresh out of bootcamps making 100k would be in a rough spot. May not be the case. Hope it isn't. Doesn't seem to be the experience of many in this thread. >
  
  The expectation increase with senior and pay, but 100k is just junior dev in big-ish firms so not many expectation and responsibility they will have to take. Bootcamp bring the road from unemployment to that first 100k significantly shorter if you went to the non-scam one. But yea there are scammy bootcamp out there for sure >
  
  My boyfriend finished a bootcamp last March (intensive 16 week program that costs around $18k tuition) and makes $150k base salary a year. I, on the other hand, graduated with a BS in Computer Science and make the same amount. However, my university tuition was over $100k. If anything, university is the scam.. if you have the motivation and willingness to push yourself / work hard and actually apply the skills you’re learning in bootcamp, these bootcamps are honestly really successful for a lot of people. Looking back, I wish I had done a bootcamp instead of my degree! A lot of my coworkers also came from bootcamps (and they are not looked down upon in the industry at all). For context, I work at Meta as a full stack engineer in California. Hope this helps! >
  
  For more context, he has a degree in Biology and the med school route didn’t work out for him so he took this 4 month bootcamp and completely changed careers in just a matter of ~6 months and found a job as a SWE. >
  
  Any chance you could give a bit more details on what specific course(s) he took, and more detail on the specific type of role/industry he is in? >
  
  Almost all of these bootcamps teach popular javascript frameworks and aim for full stack or front end SWE jobs, because that's the fastest way to be employable. Most of them will make you do projects like building a clone of Slack or some other app. >
  
  I retired from a career as a freelance webdev after 7 or 8 years because I was finally making enough money at my true passion (music), but when my gigs tanked during Covid, I took a bootcamp to update my skills, thinking I'd probably need to go back to programming.
  I do agree that tutorials and freelancing are valuable for beginners, but as someone who had nothing but experience in those things, I could not BELIEVE how lopsided my skillset was from working as a freelancer. My git skills were weak, I knew very little about modern backend and database technologies, almost nothing about the power of libraries and frameworks like React and Vue despite having already built some apps with them, and, most of all, I learned that I was lacking in the soft skills involved in working with a dev team.
  I was also surprised by how hard the class was. I had been making a respectable living for years as a developer. I also spent months boning up on my Javascript skills before the class started, so I was very comfortable with the main language we dealt with. I knew Facebook and Google wouldn't be banging down my door to offer a $250k/yr salary anytime soon, but I honestly went into the class thinking it'd be easy for someone with my experience.
  I graduated with an A average, but I worked my ass off and got really stressed out at certain parts, especially the final project. And there were a LOT of people in that class who had never programmed before! One of them is now a web developer at Amazon, FYI.
  Bootcamps aren't there to make you a great programmer. They're there to provide a focused environment for students to get the basics down pat, exactly like a military bootcamp, which make it significantly easier to build on your skills afterward and become a capable professional. The teachers and TAs make it very clear that it's actually extremely rare to get hired right out of a bootcamp, and that you should expect to build on your skills for a while before companies start paying attention, especially by working on algorithms and building your own full-stack apps solo.
  I agree that $10k is pricey, but I got more marketable skills in 3 months than I got from my entire 4-year $30k BA program. Skills that I wouldn't have even known that I didn't know had I not taken the class, and which could've taken me years to build on my own without the direction and focus that class gave me. Some of the stuff I learned about working on a dev team were things I may not have ever come across as a freelancer, too. 
  It's also amazing to cram that much learning into such a small space. Why not spend 3 months holed up and focusing heavily, then get on with your life, instead of splitting your time for years getting a degree? The remote nature of the program made it a LOT easier for me to cut all the bullshit out of my life and just do the work, too.
  I think even more important than the direct skills, though, was that the class made it 100% clear exactly what I would need to do to become a great developer. That path had always been murky to me, even after years of building sites on my own and with brief partnerships. After 3 months I had a rock-solid foundation in all the technologies I'd need to be familiar with in order to actually land a good job. >
  
  Nice. I'm seeing far more positive stories in here than negative ones. Always wrote off bootcamps as the next generation of bunk online schooling, pleasantly surprised to see that may not be the case. >
  
  You should award deltas to the people who changed your mind. >
  
  I had a coworker in a non-coding field decide one day that she needed a change. With 0 coding experience she quit her job and did a full time bootcamp. Within two weeks after graduating she had a job making $80k. A year later she moves and is making over 100k. Bootcamps 100% work.
  I on the other hand spent $0. It took me nearly 2 years (with prior coding experience) to get my first Software Engineer position making much less than her. 
  At the end of the day, are there other cheaper or free methods? Of course. But if I had the money at the time I would have 100% done a coding bootcamp instead of spending all my free time learning on my own with limited guidance.
  Furthermore, being in the industry now I have seen 0 negative reactions to bootcamps. All that really matters is that you know how to learn to solve problems, how you learned that skill is irrelevant. >
  
  A good boot camp will get you to network with a bunch of recruiters. If they are guaranteeing $75,000 a year then they are full of shit. But that doesn't mean boot camps are a waste of $. Some of them certainly are. The one's that work with employers are often well worth the investment if you are interested in that field. >
  
  Yeah, maybe. I think freelancing and joining LinkedIn would be a cheaper alternative, though. There's some value in those camps but I've seen many that promise a 75k salary. Just feels predatory. Honestly, a good developer could probably sell seats to a weekly zoom call for $100 per person and provide the same value as most camps. >
  
  You “think”. Do you have any evidence for this? All I see is you brushing off real anecdotes from people, while treating your own anecdotal experience as a hard and fast rule. Doesn’t really seem like you’re open to changing your view here >
  
  Just my own career path. It's not a hard and fast rule just how things worked for me. Tech recruiters practically live on LinkedIn and get paid commission to find devs. The demand is high and there are endless resources available to learn for free. >
  
  Many things to address in this one. 
  Bootcamps are intensives with focus on specific coding practices. I found mine worth the money because I would’ve spent many many hours trying to assemble all the necessary material myself. I had people and resources to help me get unstuck quickly. This alone is worth the price of tuition. 
  You have an absurd price disparity with thinking the going rate should be $200-500, who will teach for that little amount of money? I agree 10-20k is likely too much money, I did mine for about 5k all in and no salary sharing. I would never agree to salary sharing, that’s the real scam. 
  You’re biased because you’ve been self taught for over a decade. How do you expect people to break into this industry without some sort of guidance? People without experience cannot even fathom what they need to learn. 
  The designers in my program had a hard time landing jobs but the programmers did not especially if they were smart and dedicated. Many people tried to do this part time and didn’t realize the dedication/hours required so naturally those people flunked out. If you can make it through the program you will likely get a job. If you’re career switching from a 40k job to a 75k job you make your tuition back in less than a year. >
  
  I'm definitely biased, no push back there. To succeed in this industry, you just need a genuine interest and experience. I'd highly recommend pro-bono work and cheap freelance gigs to get experience solving problems and working with product owners. Glad you found value in your program, though. Good to know this route has helped people. Regarding cost, if I had time, I'd teach a course for $200-$500 a person. I've thought about it a few times. People just need direction and a person to ask questions. They don't need to drop thousands and cram for months. They really just need a tutor which is relatively inexpensive compared to bootcamps or degrees. >
  
  To succeed in any industry you need interest and experience. 
  Who is going to hire you for coding projects if you have never programmed or lack experience? People don’t have time to do pro-bono work when they can barely make ends meet at their underpaid job. 
  You just said you wouldn’t teach the course because you don’t have time. But if you were paid a few thousand per person instead you’d probably be more inclined to consider it. You can make over 100k programming for a company, why would you teach for a few hundred bucks? The math does not work out unless you’re a super passionate teacher. 
  Tutoring and a boot camp are vastly different. Someone who’s never programmed will not succeed with a tutor because that’s not intensive enough. Tutors are typically added on top of coursework to make you better at the coursework. A good programmers hourly is likely over $100/hr so if you go the tutor route you’ve exceed your $500 price point after 5 hours. 
  I agree some of the programs are super predatory and not worth their money. But that’s the same with any form of education, there’s always good value with some and scams with others. Community colleges can be exceptional value but not all are created equal.