comment: >
  
  Phew. Now that’s a leap. 
  Research in exactly what?
context: How can an eight-year-old, in response to years of indoctrination and pressure, make an informed “decision” to be baptized? 
  
  insert photo of a Noah's Ark mobile over a bassinet and a stuffed toy that recites prayers next to an illustrated children's bible >
  
  Based and Anabaptist-pilled >
  
  It is one of the few Anabaptist ideals that I can get behind. Babies have no will to receive the host. Infant baptism as well as children circumcision is abuse. Flat out. >
  
  How are you defining "full" male orgasm? >
  
  I do not understand these people. I do not need sex to feel any better. I'm good. It's awesome. Don't need more nerves. Not even sure what I'd do with them. >
  
  Bro, they cut off your clit… >
  
  It's worth noting that "transgender healthcare" or "gender-affirming care" are broad terms that can include hormonal therapy -- but those terms also include things like therapy with a supportive psychologist, as well as legal support, like for changing your name or gender. 
  Despite disinformation campaigns by anti-LGBTQ radicals, most people support at least some aspects of transgender healthcare once they know what it includes -- and banning all of it isn't policy, but fearmongering.
  The claims that transgender children are "indoctrinated" are dismissible, because the people making those claims tolerate extraordinary pressure on children in other contexts -- and simply by the numbers, childhood religious trauma is a much, much bigger problem than purported harms of transgender healthcare. 
  Which of course isn't the point of this article -- the point is hypocrisy that is required to turn slogans into bad policy, in a way that causes predictable harm. >
  
  Yup- not to mention kids with cancer can make their own decision to go through chemo. Which has way more drawbacks that puberty blockers :/ So why tf are kids allowed their own choices then but not in other cases? Not to be mean to cancer patient kids btw, just a very real example of kids needing to make tough choices for their own health. >
  
  They do not. And even if the parents want to follow the child’s wishes the department of Children and Families can decided to intervene. As in take your kid and make sure they get treatment. >
  
  While true, they aren't doing that in routine cases. Where things like that happen are mostly where there are religious objections to potential lifesaving treatments. And in those cases, they are absolutely right to do so. >
  
  It’s such a horrible position to take. You’re trans but you can’t be trans in our state? 
  Objectively look at the position these states are taking. Regardless if you agree with trans people transitioning, look objectively. What if you were told you can’t dye your hair, get piercings, your hair had to be a length regardless of your preference on length. You had to wear clothes assigned to you. 
  No tattoos, no drinking, smoking, nothing that signals your division from a “norm”. Your body is not yours. >
  
  Makes total sense, sounds like Mormonism to me. You’re obviously not from Utah, that’s exactly how many conservative mormons live their lives. >
  
  I lived in Utah. I am not from Utah though. 
  There is still a large percentage of non-LDS in Utah. The state and religious leaders do not know better than doctors and studies. >
  
  They think they do and that all that matters. They’re still the ones running the show >
  
  Maybe we should send in the government again. Treat them like they used to be treated til they found Utah. >
  
  What makes you think Utah is any worse than say…. Ohio? I didn’t read about raped children leaving Utah to get abortions. The problem here isn’t “Mormons” it’s any and ALL religions. They all do the same thing. Just look what’s happening in Alabama, Tennessee, Kentucky, Florida, pick any religious state. >
  
  I was raised in a family where my grandpa was a Reverend at a a Lutheran-type church. He was super cool cuz he also taught philosophy and world history (at a seminary school). We had a very well-rounded view of religion in general. My mom has always been Agnostic. My dad isn't religious, but cops to praying sometimes. 
  Even as a child, the Baptist side of the family would give us those little books about, "the lake of fire", and I KNEW that that stuff wasn't real. I was five or six years old maybe? By the time it was time to make my "confirmation" (which happened at, like, age 13 or something? I only did it for my grandma), I already knew that religion wasn't for me. Of course I got into "trouble" when they started talking about "woman" coming from "Adam's rib". I literally started laughing out loud and debated the reverend who was leading the class. It caused a big kerfuffle, and I didn't really care. 
  Point being, I have a feeling a lot of kids KNOW at a young age that its all B.S. and are too afraid to say anything and play along. Maybe? >
  
  I think the information age changes things quite a bit. The children have all had tablets and smartphones as long as they can remember—they're digital natives.
  This stand up routine from George Carlin has a timeless quality to it. Peer and family pressure try to drive children into a certain way of thinking...
  
  [George Carlin] But I want you to know something, this is sincere, I want you to know, when it comes to believing in God, I really tried. I really, really tried. I tried to believe that there is a God, who created each of us in His own image and likeness, loves us very much, and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize, something is fucked up. Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades.
  Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would've been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago. And by the way, I say "this guy", because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if there is a God, it has to be a man. No woman could or would ever fuck things up like this. So, if there is a God, I think most reasonable people might agree that he's at least incompetent, and maybe, just maybe, doesn't give a shit. >
  
  While I enjoy that piece of stand-up, it doesn’t really grapple with the actual beliefs of any Abrahamic religion. I always get a little frustrated when people say ‘how can bad things happen if there’s a God?’. It is stated multiple times that the world beyond Eden was never designed to be perfect, but imperfect. Even saying stuff like ‘suffering is God’s will’ is a horrific flattening of the fundamental beliefs. 
  Free will necessitates suffering. And, much as I despise the concept and the sexism at the heart of it, Original Sin is a big deal, and essentially believed to be the root of all evil and pain. Essentially, God went hands-off and allowed men to govern themselves. He provides the base necessities for all, but allows men to decide what they will do with them. Even if that is sin. After Eden, there was separation between God and Man.
  So to say ‘why didn’t God fix all the bad things’ misunderstands the doctrine in the first place. Jesus, in the Christian faith, was meant to be the bridge between God and men, to breach some of that isolation of God from men. >
  
  In mormon theology, men may become gods if they meet the requirements. There are some loopholes that allow people "who have never heard the truth" while alive to accept it after death. This is a big loophole that could permit someone like an Adolf Hitler to become a god over his own world. One recurring thought I have, coming from a mormon background, is that there is suffering in the world precisely because the deity wants suffering. He's a sadist and getting his jollies watching that pain and suffering.
  Of course, if this is a simple mythology—one of hundreds and thousands our species loves to create—then it is so much meaningless drivel. The god of the Abrahamic religions appears to be missing in action. He could show up to clarify all of the misinformation being spread in his name, but he prefers to remain hidden.
  
  Dillahunty's essays on divine hiddenness >
  
  coming from a jehovah’s witness background, they have a similar loophole if someone does not “knowing the truth.” >
  
  Why am I not surprised this is Utah. 
  Legislation here gives absolutely no shit to any voter. We voted to legalize marijuana, they said no and we fought back. Medically it’s ok for only one or two things. 
  We had separate group decide on the districts of each area, voters were happy! Not the legislature! How dare we make things simple we will go with this map where we can keep the state Mormon! They only care about money and I’m at my wits end. >
  
  The Mormon church in my opinion is a untaxed business not a religion. But people are free to believe whatever they want. It’s when they put laws in place that take away my right to believe what I believe that gripes me. >
  
  I concur as well. >
  
  Religious schools have been teaching kids for generations that, according God, based on your body type, one type of person is inherently dominant and the other is submissive. It’s so much more harmful to people than simply accepting the fact that gender is a complicated emotional experience for some people when they are forced into those guidelines. >
  
  
  It’s so much more harmful
  
  But it's normal and therefore good. Normal things are normal. 
  But if they were not so normal they'd be so not normal. >
  
  LDS is a cult that has captured a US State. This is unacceptable. >
  
  Technically it wasn't a state when they captured it. >
  
  & it’s only a state because they said they would stop practicing polygamy…do we really think polygamy is dead? >
  
  The main sect the LDS (Latter Day Saints) have given up polygamy but turn a kind of blind eye to the Polygamous sects.
  Fundamentalist JCLDS that have towns in the south of Utah, Arizona, Mexico.  The only time the polygamous sects get shit is when they marry underage girls or the heat gets to much for the Salt Lake City version of LDS. >
  
  “Given up polygamy” ok check out D&C 132 >
  
  From what I have read in the histories (not LDS) Old Prophet Joe Smith wanted to boink the wives and daughters of the Cult he was developing.
  Thus Those Inspirations led to plural marriage.  For the powerful men.  Women can just like it or lump it. >
  
  I’m saying technically it’s still part of their doctrine, just not publicly >
  
  Having lots of family members on your personal planet is still a thing. >
  
  Tennessee tried to remove the age requirement for marriage. These laws are clearly not about  child welfare. >
  
  I am thinking of opening a chain of Christian Conversion Camps, I am just not sure what to convert them into. >
  
  Mimes or street performers >
  
  I was thinking plasma, compromise, we trap the resulting plasma in an invisible box! >
  
  And then you can convert the plasma into cash! >
  
  Just a broad summary of the conservative position here as a “reset”:
  
  
  a teenage girl MUST give birth to a baby regardless of the risk to her life and health, or if the father is a rapist or even her own blood relative
  
  
  a child MUST be indoctrinated into whatever religious beliefs the parent chooses, and obey until they are of legal age, regardless of any emotional or psychological damage.
  
  
  a teenager who is born intersex or has any other gender identity issue MUST NOT have any affirming care under any circumstances, even though such care is done with a MD and psychologist and following all latest guidelines, and completely voluntary by teen and parent.  
  
  
  Yeah, makes complete sense….🙄😵‍💫🤮 >
  
  Utah has been amongst the worst states for teen suicide my whole life with multiple of my friends and family committing or attempting suicide. 
  70% of baptized members stop attending the LDS church, meanwhile, about 3% of persons who transition regret their decision. >
  
  There were some articles on topic in the Salt Lake Tribune and the Wall Street Journal in 2019, link >
  
  Not exactly the same but if it means cutting down on future religious nuts I'm all for it >
  
  You speak for me - had no idea what that 8 year old getting a dunking meant.   Don't really care, I walked away.   
  funny story:   decades latter some one knocked on my mom's front door and introduced themselves as Richard Nixon - she did not know which was worse:  mormon or potus wannabee. >
  
  A child can’t possibly know that they’re misgendered, and therefor shouldn’t have any surgery or medical procedures done to them.
  But, let’s go ahead and shave off a piece of a baby’s penis within a week of them being born. >
  
  The decision rhetoric is very frustrating, especially from allies. Like, I get you want to humor the point, but you gotta press them on every time they try and imply that this is a choice. It's just the "gay lifestyle" bullshit all over again and we're failing to meet it. You keep someone honest on making the claim that these kids are choosing to be trans, and they either have to reveal themselves to be a total head empty bigot, or their arguments break down.
  Even though we talk about the choices parents and doctors make, and it's important to note that these kids "aren't making these decisions alone, by themselves"; it's very important to remember that they aren't deciding to be trans. They just are trans. In response, we must decide if we're going to help them or just let them suffer. >
  
  I do on a lot of levels object to the various religious ceremonies I get invited to for the children of my friends.  Like, I don't know, why does that kid not get a choice? >
  
  Um in Utah we don’t allow kids to make decisions about religion. The decisions are made for them. Rail roading their future into the coffers of the Mormon temple. But I get what you’re saying we shouldn’t be asking them to get baptized. I promise you they are making a decision, but it’s between making mommy and daddy happy or making them sad. It isn’t about religion in their minds. It isn’t about Jesus. The kids are victims of a cult that is ensuring it’s survival. 
  I absolutely agree though we need to start throwing their bullshit back in their face. >
  
  Most of them don't get a chance to make those decisions.
  But I'm all for a ban on parents indoctrinating their children with their own religion. 
   Ending that child abuse will relieve so much stress and fear in young people.
  I can relate.  Directly. >
  
  says everyone "raised catholic".
  I learned a great many things but left so much more on the table because it was antiquated and made no fucking sense as a human. totally agree. let them be! >
  
  
  alt >
  
  100% >
  
  No billion year contracts, amen. >
  
  Religion is what is really grooming and brainwashing kids!!! >
  
  Why not ban religion instead of sexuality? >
  
  Oh yeah, THIS is going to be a civil discussion! >
  
  I appreciate the letter's spirit, but, well... we basically don't let kids make decisions about religion. We leave them at the mercy of their parents or legal guardians, which doesn't seem like it's working out that well either.
  He finally touches upon that at the very end of the letter, and proposes no solution. That's because there really isn't one. Kids are fuckin' stupid, so they can't be making most decisions for themselves. Meanwhile, society is pervasive; it seems futile to try to insulate kids from it for eighteen or more years so that they can see it with fresh eyes and some abstract philosophical education once they're "mature."
  Plato suggested something like the latter - though only for the special kids who he somehow knew in advance were going to be society's golden guardians in their adulthood - and even he recognized that it was an untenable flight of fancy.
  It's an alluring one, though, for everyone who has any doubts about the prevailing social order. The idea of kids acting like anthropologists from an alien race and recognizing all of our bullshit for the bullshit that it is just feels so good. How do you actually get there? I don't think there's a way. >
  
  Thinking of Plato this whole democracy thing has some flaws. Kinda seems like we’ve been fucking about for some time. Though I kinda wonder if he would through the states in the oligopoly class. >
  
  Or we could just not ban healthcare. Let’s not try to get an eye for an eye here. Our health and existence is more important then Your social warrior brownie points for trying to get rhetorically even. >
  
  I don’t know if this is the best analogy to make. Children very often change their initial views on religion and leave the church or their faith. It could lead to the conclusion that children are fickle and I’m not position to make life-long decisions at a young age. >
  
  Non-denominational christian, but not like a biblical scholar, here.
  But because, in some translations, Jesus unlocks the gates of purgatory (In some it’s Hell) after their death. Aren’t children, in some views, passing before their opportunity still getting an opportunity, if not a pass (I.e Heart of a child and whatnot)? >
  
  It's definitely part of Catholicism and Mormonism. Mormonism is something I have studied and continue to do research on. The founder of mormonism, Joseph Smith, introduced new theology in the mid-nineteenth century to answer questions that had been cropping up. He claimed to have the voice of deity telling him what to say. One of the last "approved" sections of new canon in Brighamite mormonism came in 1976, just before the race reversal in 1978. Some writing from 1836 was elevated to canonized scripture where Smith claimed people who did not get a chance to accept the one-true-religion while they were alive would get another chance. In this model, Hitler and Braun could be elevated to standing as gods—depending on whether or not the mormon missionaries knocked at their door. All of the holocaust and World War II crimes can be washed away forgiven in a heartbeat. See episodes 7 and 8 in this series for more, link. >
  
  Being a former Mormon, having lived it for 43 years, I can state that this church is a cult. The gaslighting the goes on there is immense. An eight year old does not voice other than what their parent allows. It’s drilled into their little heads the expectation for baptism with the threat of hell, damnation and scare tactic of disappointing their parental figures. 
  Religious trauma is a real thing, and former members of some of these “respectable” cults have a lot of it.
  Note, I was a Mormon seminary teacher, so yes, I’ve don’t my homework and then some on this cult. >
  
  Tattoos either >
  
  What state do you live in that children are allowed to get tattoos? >
  
  I get his point, but the practical application of his position is that parents can compel children to practice a certain religion. I don't think that's what he really wants. >
  
  His point is that they already do that. >
  
  Religion can be changed relatively easily and at will unlike the potentially permanent bodily effects of “gender-affirming” surgery >
  
  Religion cannot be changed easily. A quick look into all the ex-religion subs on Reddit show that it leaves very deep scars. 
  Gender affirming care is very reversible at early stages. People only for go surgery after years of being sure they want to go ahead with it. Kids are not getting surgery >
  
  You’re wrong, gender affirming surgeries are allowed for children >
  
  It is very uncommon for children to get surgery due to the risks involved but also because they are minors. Very much requires parental approval. Most surgeries are done after 18. Not only due to the risks involved but the length of time required for people to be on other pre-surgery therapies like hormone therapy and puberty blockers. >
  
  No. They mean being dunked fully into water and making promises to pay the church 10 percent of all your money. Which they expect 8 year olds to do after being baptized. You get paid to babysit? Give 10 percent to the church. Allowance? 10 percent to the church. 
  Let’s not even get into the sexually explicit interviews young men and women are put through with their bishops or the fact that they rub oil on your genitalia if you get married in the temple. 
  I’d say indoctrinating children into a cult that hides SA of children, teaches women they are baby factories and men that they are superior as long as they pay money to the church is a pretty good comparison actually. You clearly have no idea what it is like to grow up in Mormon Utah. >
  
  You could just flat out say you didn’t read the article >
  
  I agree. >
  
  Any religion? >
  
  Zing!!! >
  
  Uhhh I’d go the opposite way. Only you should be able to make religious choices for you. 
  Should be illegal for any parent to indoctrinate any child into any religion/cult against their will. >
  
  They don't care about religion, they're fascists Barbara >
  
  Sounds like a job for the church of Satan >
  
  Yeah no this would get struck down on religious freedom grounds for minority groups like Jews and indigenous peoples. >
  
  We don’t, their parents make the decisions. >
  
  Having no formal religious affiliation should be equally respected as religious affiliation for kids and adults. >
  
  We don't. It's not a coincidence they have the same religion as their grandparents. >
  
  Ridiculous comparison. I am pro health care for transgender people for the record and subscribe to no organized religion. >
  
  Why is it ridiculous? >
  
  But, religion is reversible, while….,, >
  
  You should do some research friend….
  And religious trauma has a high causation of suicide among teens.  Death certainly is irreversible…