comment: >
  
  I'd say it depends. I dont want biological kids. Not now, not ever. Simple. If I have a long term relationship, I myself won't end it over that, but my stance is simple (and the other person will likely leave, as is their right).
  Because of this, if I was dating someone and I find out they want kids, that's the end of it. Cause I don't want to invest three years into a relationship just so they can find out that I will in fact not change my mind. And they do in fact want kids. And there truly is no compromise for this. The relationship is just more likely to last with someone who's on the same page.
  (To be fair, I usually tell people before even dating cause I'm not here to waste anyone's time)
context: i personally would rather not be a father and stay with my current girlfriend (soon to be wife) then start all over and hope everything works out.
  
  I'm not sure what view you want changed here. You, personally, are willing to forego children to stay in a relationship. Many people are not. They want children and feel their lives will be incomplete without them.
  Those people should probably break up.
  That's not your priority. Ok? >
  
  The view I want to debate on and be challenged on is that it isn't wise to break up with someone solely due having differences in the kids vs no kids debate.   
  My question to your response is what are the reasons one might feel "incomplete" without having a kid? The main ones I can think of are societal pressure (everyone else is having babies and my parents want grand children) and values from how you were raised (was always taught that having kids was a must do in life and its shameful not to have them).  
  I understand that parenthood can be very fulfilling. Afterall, my parents and I have a great relationship. I'm just of the opinion that if you love your partner very strongly and they don't want kids, you're taking a massive gamble by breaking it off and could very well not find another ideal partner. Basically, I'd rather live in a very good, but not perfect house rather than blow up the foundation and hope i find the perfect home one day. >
  
  Except you are viewing the relationship as independent of children.
  For some people, what they want is to raise children with the specific person they are dating.  The two are inseparable goals.  Rephrased, some people view having a family as the ultimate manifestation of their love for their spouse (or significant other).  It would be hard for that person to say, “I’m okay with love, but not with the deepest form of love for me.” >
  
  yes i am and I think that is important. Relationships serve an important purpose beyond procreation.   
  However I fully understand this perspective about a family being a very pure form of love. I also think if it's truly a deal breaker, you should not string along the other partner >
  
  So your telling me only religious people want kids lol is it that hard to understand some people want kids and aren't willing to take no for an answer >
  
  That was a mistake comment meant for another poster. See my edits >
  
  You absolutely should  if it is really important to you.
  A marriage, at its core, it two people partnering to help achieve the things that they want in life.  The two together can achieve things that they can't achieve (or would have greater difficulty achieving) alone.  Being aligned on the things that you want to achieve is paramount to that partnership being successful.
  Now, of course, you will disagree on some things - compromise it a part of any partnership and you wont' always get 100% of the things that you want - but you have to be aligned on the big, really important stuff.  If you are not, it just leads to one partner feeling they have sacrificed more than the other, which breeds resentment and will ultimately cause the marriage to fail.  
  You only get one ride on this rollercoaster, so you shouldn't sacrifice the big things you want to achieve in life for anyone else.  You should instead find someone who is aligned with you on those things so that you can both push towards them together.
  Now, maybe having kids isn't one of your big life goals - in that case, by all means, compromise with your partner.  If it is one of your big life goals, don't sacrifice it.  You'll just end up unhappy and unfulfilled. >
  
  I see what you're saying, but I believe marriage and all relationships should be love based, not practicality based. At least if your goal is to maximize happiness.If your goal is to achieve specific life objectives (children, certain financial status, etc.) above all else, then I agree with you fully.
  My issue is that in my mind, breaking up with someone due to wanting kids is basically devaluing the relationship between husband and wife. I want kids, but I also want a very loving, loyal, and adventuresome wife who I"ll wake up next to happy all day. I was single all throughout my early and mid 20s, dated around a good bit, and never found anyone remotely close to what I want in a long term partner as my current wife.
  I'm not convinced giving that up just to be a father is the right decision for me (or anyone really). Hence my earlier point about personally knowing a lot of unhappy married couples that are only together due to kids. >
  
  
  I believe marriage and all relationships should be love based, not practicality based.
  
  It needs to be both.  Love is an important part of any relationship, but love alone isn't enough.  You need to be aligned on what you want to achieve in life.  The old "opposites attract" mantra doesn't lead to happy relationships - the sharing of core beliefs and values does.  The only way the partnership works for decades is if the two of you are aligned on where you want to go together.
  
  My issue is that this is basically devaluing the relationship between husband and wife.
  
  Not at all.  Its just saying that a relationship needs to have a foundation of mutual goals that you are working towards.  If you are misaligned on what you are trying to achieve together, the partnership won't work long-term.  The value of the relationship is both of you working to help achieve the things that you both want.
  
  I'm not convinced giving that up just to be a father is the right decision for me (or anyone really). 
  
  You need to figure that out first.  If you are worried that you'll seriously regret not having kids one day, then you are committing to having an unhappy life by staying with your partner.  Neither you nor your partner should want that for you.
  
  Hence my earlier point about personally knowing a lot of unhappy married couples that are only together due to kids.
  
  That's a different issue.  Unhappy people shouldn't stay together just for the kids. >
  
  I really appreciate these points. You've come the closest to truly changing my mindset on this and I thank you for providing thoughtful answers.
  Your point about foundation of mutual goals is especially true. I guess what it comes down to is you have to literally weigh all pros and cons. My girlfriend and I are aligned on 90% plus of long term goals. (e.g. what we want to do with finances, how we want to live our every day lives, shared hobbies, vacations, views on how to handle adversity, etc.).  
  Maybe my case is a classic example of wanting kids being only a small fraction of the total life objective, but for others, it's a massive portion and the other stuff (finances, shared hobbies, etc.) isn't as crucial. In those case it'd defintiely be a harder decision >
  
  
  My girlfriend and I are aligned on 90% plus of long term goals.
  
  Which is good - compromise is a cornerstone of good relationships.
  That said, the absolute percentage doesn't matter.  Everyone has "deal breakers" - things that they can't compromise on else they end up living an unhappy life.  It doesn't matter if you are 99% aligned - if that 1% is one of your deal breakers, then the relationship isn't going to work.
  You have to decide if having kids is one of your deal breakers.  No one here can answer that for you.  All we can say is if it is one of your deal breakers, then don't pretend that you'll be happy giving it up.  You won't be, and you'll just end up resenting your partner for making you. >
  
  On point 3, it’s not that simple. You can really value your partner while also realizing that you will regret not having kids later, but also respect the fact you can’t change who your partner is. 
  Kids are a big damn deal. If you are ok giving up the idea of fatherhood, then that is your choice. But if a guy really wants kids and he meets a women who doesn’t want them, and he can’t give up the idea of fatherhood because that is the life he wants, then it doesn’t say anything bad about him for leaving her. 
  There are many instances of men staying with a partner who says they don’t want kids, but they stay with the hope she will change her mind. Then resentment builds. The advice “leave because there’s no compromise with kids” is really for people who think they can change their partner’s mind >
  
  
  However she is iffy on having kids and ive wanted to be a dad. In my mind, im more than willing to give up desire to be a father to stay with her. Below is my reasoning.
  
  That's it. That's the end of it really. It's something that you are willing to compromise on. But many are not, and that's okay. It really is one of the things that is a relationship ender. 
  
  Theres NO guarantee youd find someone you truly love again.
  
  Fine, so you have a choice to make. 
  
  Those people consistently have worse lives and less happiness than childless couples who are genuinely in love.
  
  Are these childless couples childless by choice? Are they two people who have both decided they want to be child free? Or do you know that one of them compromised on their want to have children? 
  
  I hate the idea of tearing apart a loving relationship in order to have a chance of achieving a hypothetical objective (having kids) while also banking on finding someome who comes close to replicating the love with a current partner.
  
  Again, this is all very specific to you, and that's fine! But it's not something to base your view of an entire complex situation on. (A situation that very heavily relies on personal wants and preferences of the individuals involved.)
  
  Your partners life purpose is not to be your means and method for procreating. 
  
  This is so wrong. No one (no one worthwhile anyway) thinks their partner is purely for children. What people want is to find someone compatible with them and their life goals. No one should force their partner into having or not having kids.
  
  If youd break up with your partner due to wanting a kid, it means you see more value in them helping you achieve parenthood as opposed to seeing value in their companinship and the relationship between husband and wife.
  
  Some people want a family and that's okay. It doesn't mean that you don't value your partner. It just means you're both adult enough to accept that you have a non-negotiable difference.
  
  In a situation where two people really love each other, but have very hard stances i think the partner who wants the kid should make the sacrifice as i have.
  
  No, you should make that sacrifice, because it suits you. You shouldn't judge other people for their choices. >
  
  Out of all the posts, this one is among the best. I appreciate you challenging some of my points and not just saying how "others feel differently" thus im wrong.
  I think this ultimately boils down to the fact that a lot of people may simply not know what is best for them? A woman in a stable relationship with a loving husband who doesn't want kids may feel kids are a "must have" and then become a single mom with a dead beat absent father.
  Objectively speaking, that woman would be so much better off in life in the former relationship. Now situations where you marry someone you don't truly love just to have kids are more debatable and if you REALLY want kids, this may be a worthy sacrifice to some. >
  
  
  One of the most conventional pieces of dating advice is that kids vs no kids is a decision with zero room for compromise. I find this to be very outdated and often harmful advice. Just to preface this post,  I acknowledge that it is a much more consequential decision to have kids you dont want vs deciding not to have kids to maintain status quo. This post is more directed moreso at the latter.
  
  You cannot pick and choose which side of this argument to focus on if you’re going to have an honest conversation about it. You may want to focus on deciding to not have kids, which totally cool. But this does not ignore the very reality of people who decide to have kids purely because their partner wants to and then they end up regretting it have a lead for the rest of the relationship/life.
  
  I found a girl who im strongly in love with. Were both in late 20s / early 30s so its not naive young infatuation. Were financially well off, have good jobs, friends etc. However she is iffy on having kids and ive wanted to be a dad. In my mind, im more than willing to give up desire to be a father to stay with her. Below is my reasoning.
  
  Totally cool, some people aren’t. Honestly, that should be enough to change your view considering that having children is extremely important for some people and it’s not something they can get over very easy. For some relationships, this causes a great deal of resentment and issues. It also can lead to divorce later on in life.
  
  Ive always believed that the single biggest factor in ones happiness in life is the quality of the relationship between you and the man/woman you choose to marry. Genuine love cant be manufactured or forced, and is exceedingly rare. 
  
  Of which this love can suffer if there is an issue that neither one of you can agree on, which is having children.
  
  Theres NO guarantee youd find someone you truly love again. 
  
  There’s also no guarantee that this won’t happen.
  
  I see so many married couples who dont genuinely love each other and have kids as the thing binding them together. 
  
  This is not exclusive for people who choose to have children.
  
  Those people consistently have worse lives and less happiness than childless couples who are genuinely in love.
  
  This does not correlate to the over arcing topic. Your CMV is specifically about having children. A couple with children that is not happy might have nothing to do with the couple arguing over whether or not they have children. Maybe they just fell out of love at a later time. You cannot assume that a couple who is unhappy is unhappy because they argued over having children.
  
  the grass isnt always greener. This ties back into my first point. I hate the idea of tearing apart a loving relationship in order to have a chance of achieving a hypothetical objective (having kids) while also banking on finding someome who comes close to replicating the love with a current partner. 
  
  Couples do this literally all the time and sometimes sacrificing personal happiness is not worth it for some people. Hypothetical objective could be moving out of poverty. If you are married to somebody who just refuses to help you financially some people would choose to sacrifice personal happiness and move on from this person. It’s not always in the negative and I think I’m a little bit confused as to why you’re painting it as such. There are things about someone’s life outside of their romantic relationship.
  
  Its basically throwing away a very good life so you can chase after a perfect one. In my experience, people with this mindset are rarely happy long term.
  
  Again, this only makes sense if we have someone who is in the state of mind where they can come to terms with never having children. Some people are not like this. Wanting to have children is a pretty big hope for some and if their partner cannot fulfill it they will pretty much would just be pissed off/resentful for an extended period of time.
  
  Your partners life purpose is not to be your means and method for procreating. If youd break up with your partner due to wanting a kid, it means you see more value in them helping you achieve parenthood as opposed to seeing value in their companinship and the relationship between husband and wife.
  
  Or, it could just be because the two people aren’t compatible. If someone really really wants kids and you don’t, it’s not fair for you to make it seem like your partner is an asshole for wanting to obtain a specific life goal just because you don’t.
  
  Maybe people will disagree, but i personally would rather not be a father and stay with my current girlfriend (soon to be wife) then start all over and hope everything works out.
  
  Yeah, but that’s you. You’re making a lot of inferences based on your individual choices. That’s just not help people work. >
  
  This is a helpful response. Ill confirm with you that i do believe wisdom from personal experience is often applicable to others.
  The idea of saying my personal choices and thoughts are invalid because everyone is different doesnt address the root of my question.
  Other than the response about getting out of poverty (very valid reason) or strong devotion to religion, i genuinelly have a hard time understanding how someone would rather have a kid at the expense of true love than being with the person wholl make you the most happy but absent a child.
  Like what is it about having a kid that is so worth it thatd youd sacrifice personal happiness. Its super unhealthy to do that both mentally and physically. 
  Basically you have to hope u find someone half as compatable in all other aspects to even have a chance at similar personal happiness >
  
  
  The idea of saying my personal choices and thoughts are invalid because everyone is different doesnt address the root of my question.
  
  That is not what I’m saying at all. What I am saying is that it’s not particularly the most logical to take your personal experience/choice with something and then proceeded to extrapolated to every other person going through the same thing.
  
  I genuinelly have a hard time understanding how someone would rather have a kid at the expense of true love than being with the person wholl make you the most happy but absent a child.
  
  See, this is exactly what I mean. You don’t have to understand. The reality of the situation is that there are people who would rather have children and being in a relationship where they choose to not have children can breed long time resentment.
  You also talk about this true love thing all the time. Quite literally, what do you even mean by that? How do you know that the person you’re with is your true love? How do you know that you’re not going to meet someone after the fact who is your true love? I think it’s kind of strange that you’re treating it like this one and done type deal. Again, I think you’re basing this off of your own personal relationship. Which totally cool, but it’s just not applicable to everybody else.
  I think we also just need to be a little bit more honest here. Children make or break a relationship. This is an aged old conversation. You’re not going to fix relationship issues revolving around children by just essentially saying “get over it you have your true love so what.”
  
  Like what is it about having a kid that is so worth it thatd youd sacrifice personal happiness. 
  
  For some people, sacrificing having children is also sacrificing personal happiness. You can’t just make a claim that XYZ thing is personal happiness just because it is for you.
  For some people, personal happiness is breaking up with someone and looking for someone who has similar life goals. Which includes whether or not you want to have children.
  I can actually back this up because there are couples choose not to have kids in the end up regretting it go at the end up not liking each other, the end up in couples therapy, the end of divorcing, etc. etc. Couples like this do actually exist. It doesn’t always work out despite what you’re trying to suggest.
  
  Its super unhealthy to do that both mentally and physically. 
  
  You can also be unhealthy to alter very big life goals for your partner.
  
  Basically you have to hope u find someone half as compatable in all other aspects to even have a chance at similar personal happiness
  
  Yup. Sometimes this is better for some people.
  I’m still confused on why you’re so dead set on the idea that the person you are currently with is objectively your true love. Some people date four or five people before they settle down. >
  
  I feel like your post is being heavily influenced by your own decision. Look of you want to marry this woman more than you want to be a father then do it. Do it without regret and don't let people tell you otherwise. But dont make the assumption. Because right now the assumption you have is 'I can give up kids therefore anyone can.' 
  The issue is to believe that you'd have to believe that having children is more important to you than anyone. And I doubt it is because lots of people wouldn't do what you did. You talk about a solid foundation but to them the foundation of marriage involves kids. There is no solid foundation that has no kids. 
  
  Ive always believed that the single biggest factor in ones happiness in life is the quality of the relationship between you and the man/woman you choose to marry.
  
  Even if I grant that to you that, it's not the only factor. And that means that other factors can overwhelm it. Of I met a woman who didn't like my family that relationship is doomed to failure. It doesn't mean she's an evil harpy but my family means the world to me. For her to decide she wants nothing to do with them is to force me to choose and I'd rather not. Even if it means losing her I choose family. 
  Like it or not all relationships are somewhat transactional. The list of dos and donts we each have is unique but most include such basics as don't cheat, take care of your hygiene, be nice to me. If having kids is one of the top on your list it's completely reasonable to say 'this is more important to me than these other things on the list'
  
  Its basically throwing away a very good life so you can chase after a perfect one. In my experience, people with this mindset are rarely happy long term.
  
  This is the second time you've appealed to fear. More so you're assuming perfection. Your relationship isn't perfect. No one is perfect and no relationship is perfect. It's give and take. All a person who wants kids is saying is that this is a very important part of the life I've chosen to live. It doesn't make them perfectionist anymore than a vegan not wanting to date people who eat meat are chasing perfection. Their lost is just different.  
  
  Your partners life purpose is not to be your means and method for procreating. If youd break up with your partner due to wanting a kid, it means you see more value in them helping you achieve parenthood as opposed to seeing value in their companinship and the relationship between husband and wife.
  
  This is just a little bit very rude. How dare you make the suggestion that anyone who wants kids has decided their spouse is a means to an end. That's ridiculous to the point of parody. 
  Imagine I told you, wanting an exclusive relationship is just proof you want to control your wife and that control is more important to you than her happiness and that control is actually the value you see in her. Don't try to paint people who disagree with you as evil heartless monsters. It detracts from whatever point you're making. Having different priorities doesn't make me evil and you good and you'd be better off abandoning this caricature than pretending it's a point. >
  
  Nah - you shouldn't remain in a relationship where you don't see eye to eye on all major topics, including children. Otherwise, you are committing yourself to a lifetime of misery and capitulation.
  Bf/gf should be fun and light-hearted. Differences can be ignored for the time being because the relationship shouldn't be serious. It should be filled primarily with fun dates and hot sex. When the cloud of commitment arrives, if you don't see eye to eye on roles, children, parenting, faith, and family....run. Don't do it to yourself. You won't "change" your partner without deep-seated resentment, likewise, you will feel a growing degree of disdain for compromising where your partner wouldn't. 
  It's more satisfying and healthy to be committed to someone who doesn't require you to justify and fight for what you believe in, but understands your perspective on life because they share the same or similar views. You want a companion from your world. It doesn't make you a bad person, it makes you an honest and realistic one. Relationships shouldn't be a Lincoln-Douglass debate on values and positions. That gets exhausting. So leave and be happy and healthy. 
  What I said isn't an attempt to change your view. It's gospel. Proceed however you wish just know you've been warned. >
  
  The decision to have and raise a child is the biggest decision the average person will make in their lifetime. It's a bare minimum of 18 years of full personal and financial commitment. It changes the rest of your life forever.
  If a couple has incompatible dreams of their fulfilled lives, then maybe it's not meant to be after all. >
  
  I can’t marry someone not open to kids in my religion.  The marriage is not actually valid.  
  I am not sure what you recommend in my situation other than to have kids be a non-negotiable. >
  
  i did not take into consideration religion. I'm not personally religious nor is my girlfriend, but I totally understand your stance here. This is an exception to my post >
  
  Then I think you should award me a delta! >
  
  No >
  
  What your cmv then is saying is that if someone in your position decided to break up then it wasn't real love.
  Its seem fully plausible to me that your desire to be a dad grows and you at some point you decide to split up with your SO.
  But wouldn't that point be the point the kid question made you decided to stop loving her?