comment: >
  
  I. Am. Not. Responding. To. Just. Mormons. Literally saw the title, with no mention of Mormons and laughed.
context: How can an eight-year-old, in response to years of indoctrination and pressure, make an informed “decision” to be baptized? 
  
  insert photo of a Noah's Ark mobile over a bassinet and a stuffed toy that recites prayers next to an illustrated children's bible >
  
  Based and Anabaptist-pilled >
  
  It is one of the few Anabaptist ideals that I can get behind. Babies have no will to receive the host. Infant baptism as well as children circumcision is abuse. Flat out. >
  
  
  children circumcision is abuse. Flat out.
  
  Sexual abuse as well. Those who are fully circumcised have up to 90% of the nerve-endings on the penile stalk cut away; they will never be able to experience full male orgasm. >
  
  Not only are nerves severed, but you lose the entire tactile sensation of the foreskin rolling >
  
  For obvious reasons, I have to take your word for it. >
  
  It's worth noting that "transgender healthcare" or "gender-affirming care" are broad terms that can include hormonal therapy -- but those terms also include things like therapy with a supportive psychologist, as well as legal support, like for changing your name or gender. 
  Despite disinformation campaigns by anti-LGBTQ radicals, most people support at least some aspects of transgender healthcare once they know what it includes -- and banning all of it isn't policy, but fearmongering.
  The claims that transgender children are "indoctrinated" are dismissible, because the people making those claims tolerate extraordinary pressure on children in other contexts -- and simply by the numbers, childhood religious trauma is a much, much bigger problem than purported harms of transgender healthcare. 
  Which of course isn't the point of this article -- the point is hypocrisy that is required to turn slogans into bad policy, in a way that causes predictable harm. >
  
  Intersex children are routinely given involuntary gender assignment surgery without any hint of consideration for the informed consent of the child.  It's all hypocrisy and double-standards. >
  
  My sisters ex girlfriend was born intersex and raised as a boy. Fortunately her parents supported her transitioning when she was a teenager. >
  
  It’s such a horrible position to take. You’re trans but you can’t be trans in our state? 
  Objectively look at the position these states are taking. Regardless if you agree with trans people transitioning, look objectively. What if you were told you can’t dye your hair, get piercings, your hair had to be a length regardless of your preference on length. You had to wear clothes assigned to you. 
  No tattoos, no drinking, smoking, nothing that signals your division from a “norm”. Your body is not yours. >
  
  Makes total sense, sounds like Mormonism to me. You’re obviously not from Utah, that’s exactly how many conservative mormons live their lives. >
  
  I lived in Utah. I am not from Utah though. 
  There is still a large percentage of non-LDS in Utah. The state and religious leaders do not know better than doctors and studies. >
  
  They think they do and that all that matters. They’re still the ones running the show >
  
  Maybe we should send in the government again. Treat them like they used to be treated til they found Utah. >
  
  LDS is a cult that has captured a US State. This is unacceptable. >
  
  Technically it wasn't a state when they captured it. >
  
  & it’s only a state because they said they would stop practicing polygamy…do we really think polygamy is dead? >
  
  The main sect the LDS (Latter Day Saints) have given up polygamy but turn a kind of blind eye to the Polygamous sects.
  Fundamentalist JCLDS that have towns in the south of Utah, Arizona, Mexico.  The only time the polygamous sects get shit is when they marry underage girls or the heat gets to much for the Salt Lake City version of LDS. >
  
  I was raised in a family where my grandpa was a Reverend at a a Lutheran-type church. He was super cool cuz he also taught philosophy and world history (at a seminary school). We had a very well-rounded view of religion in general. My mom has always been Agnostic. My dad isn't religious, but cops to praying sometimes. 
  Even as a child, the Baptist side of the family would give us those little books about, "the lake of fire", and I KNEW that that stuff wasn't real. I was five or six years old maybe? By the time it was time to make my "confirmation" (which happened at, like, age 13 or something? I only did it for my grandma), I already knew that religion wasn't for me. Of course I got into "trouble" when they started talking about "woman" coming from "Adam's rib". I literally started laughing out loud and debated the reverend who was leading the class. It caused a big kerfuffle, and I didn't really care. 
  Point being, I have a feeling a lot of kids KNOW at a young age that its all B.S. and are too afraid to say anything and play along. Maybe? >
  
  I think the information age changes things quite a bit. The children have all had tablets and smartphones as long as they can remember—they're digital natives.
  This stand up routine from George Carlin has a timeless quality to it. Peer and family pressure try to drive children into a certain way of thinking...
  
  [George Carlin] But I want you to know something, this is sincere, I want you to know, when it comes to believing in God, I really tried. I really, really tried. I tried to believe that there is a God, who created each of us in His own image and likeness, loves us very much, and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize, something is fucked up. Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades.
  Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would've been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago. And by the way, I say "this guy", because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if there is a God, it has to be a man. No woman could or would ever fuck things up like this. So, if there is a God, I think most reasonable people might agree that he's at least incompetent, and maybe, just maybe, doesn't give a shit. >
  
  I appreciate the letter's spirit, but, well... we basically don't let kids make decisions about religion. We leave them at the mercy of their parents or legal guardians, which doesn't seem like it's working out that well either.
  He finally touches upon that at the very end of the letter, and proposes no solution. That's because there really isn't one. Kids are fuckin' stupid, so they can't be making most decisions for themselves. Meanwhile, society is pervasive; it seems futile to try to insulate kids from it for eighteen or more years so that they can see it with fresh eyes and some abstract philosophical education once they're "mature."
  Plato suggested something like the latter - though only for the special kids who he somehow knew in advance were going to be society's golden guardians in their adulthood - and even he recognized that it was an untenable flight of fancy.
  It's an alluring one, though, for everyone who has any doubts about the prevailing social order. The idea of kids acting like anthropologists from an alien race and recognizing all of our bullshit for the bullshit that it is just feels so good. How do you actually get there? I don't think there's a way. >
  
  Oh yeah, THIS is going to be a civil discussion! >
  
  You speak for me - had no idea what that 8 year old getting a dunking meant.   Don't really care, I walked away.   
  funny story:   decades latter some one knocked on my mom's front door and introduced themselves as Richard Nixon - she did not know which was worse:  mormon or potus wannabee. >
  
  Why am I not surprised this is Utah. 
  Legislation here gives absolutely no shit to any voter. We voted to legalize marijuana, they said no and we fought back. Medically it’s ok for only one or two things. 
  We had separate group decide on the districts of each area, voters were happy! Not the legislature! How dare we make things simple we will go with this map where we can keep the state Mormon! They only care about money and I’m at my wits end. >
  
  I do on a lot of levels object to the various religious ceremonies I get invited to for the children of my friends.  Like, I don't know, why does that kid not get a choice? >
  
  I don’t know if this is the best analogy to make. Children very often change their initial views on religion and leave the church or their faith. It could lead to the conclusion that children are fickle and I’m not position to make life-long decisions at a young age. >
  
  Or we could just not ban healthcare. Let’s not try to get an eye for an eye here. Our health and existence is more important then Your social warrior brownie points for trying to get rhetorically even. >
  
  I get his point, but the practical application of his position is that parents can compel children to practice a certain religion. I don't think that's what he really wants. >
  
  His point is that they already do that. >
  
  Tattoos either >
  
  What state do you live in that children are allowed to get tattoos? >
  
  Non-denominational christian, but not like a biblical scholar, here.
  But because, in some translations, Jesus unlocks the gates of purgatory (In some it’s Hell) after their death. Aren’t children, in some views, passing before their opportunity still getting an opportunity, if not a pass (I.e Heart of a child and whatnot)? >
  
  It's definitely part of Catholicism and Mormonism. Mormonism is something I have studied and continue to do research on. The founder of mormonism, Joseph Smith, introduced new theology in the mid-nineteenth century to answer questions that had been cropping up. He claimed to have the voice of deity telling him what to say. One of the last "approved" sections of new canon in Brighamite mormonism came in 1976, just before the race reversal in 1978. Some writing from 1836 was elevated to canonized scripture where Smith claimed people who did not get a chance to accept the one-true-religion while they were alive would get another chance. In this model, Hitler and Braun could be elevated to standing as gods—depending on whether or not the mormon missionaries knocked at their door. All of the holocaust and World War II crimes can be washed away forgiven in a heartbeat. See episodes 7 and 8 in this series for more, link. >
  
  Being a former Mormon, having lived it for 43 years, I can state that this church is a cult. The gaslighting the goes on there is immense. An eight year old does not voice other than what their parent allows. It’s drilled into their little heads the expectation for baptism with the threat of hell, damnation and scare tactic of disappointing their parental figures. 
  Religious trauma is a real thing, and former members of some of these “respectable” cults have a lot of it.
  Note, I was a Mormon seminary teacher, so yes, I’ve don’t my homework and then some on this cult. >
  
  You mean getting magic water splashed on you vs. taking hormones that can alter how you develop?
  What a stupid comparison. >
  
  No. They mean being dunked fully into water and making promises to pay the church 10 percent of all your money. Which they expect 8 year olds to do after being baptized. You get paid to babysit? Give 10 percent to the church. Allowance? 10 percent to the church. 
  Let’s not even get into the sexually explicit interviews young men and women are put through with their bishops or the fact that they rub oil on your genitalia if you get married in the temple. 
  I’d say indoctrinating children into a cult that hides SA of children, teaches women they are baby factories and men that they are superior as long as they pay money to the church is a pretty good comparison actually. You clearly have no idea what it is like to grow up in Mormon Utah.