comment: >
  
  Lol feminism and liberalism has come full circle. where we now fight for the right of men to compete against women as women. Welcome to the 🤡🤡🤡 show
context: I just want a robot body so that I can beat all of the humans at sports. >
  
  I want robot ears so I can like techno >
  
  How did he see me? >
  
  r/unexpectedgrandmasboy >
  
  That's the deadest sub I think I've ever seen >
  
  5 members. 5 online. 
  We did it! >
  
  Make me a mod! >
  
  Are there any trans women competing in men's sports? >
  
  Just so I don't offend or fuck this up, trans women are the ones that used to be a man and now identify as a woman?
  If that's the case not long ago there was a swimmer that entered into the women's and beat all of them like a dolphin would beat humans in general. >
  
  Yeah I may have it backwards.  Not too familiar with this transgender thing, but hey, you do you.  Life is too short, find your happiness wherever you can. >
  
  NCAA leadership says the stated goal in policy making is “not if transgender athletes are included, but how.”
  Men’s - In most sports is the Open category; anyone and everyone can participate.
  Seems pretty self explanatory.
  Edit: Please don’t give me any awards, if you’re going to spend money anyways then please donate it to help underprivileged children play sports in your city or something. o/ >
  
  Yeah, I don't get why they're willfully ignoring that the nuance of biological differences only working one way in competitive sports >
  
  Yeah, I’ve had friend literally deny that there are differences between the sexes. I remind them that even within the “gendered” sports, we create categories to protect or improve competition. Boxing is a good example of individuals being further categorized in order to make things fair. No one seems to be up in arms about that. >
  
  It starts in children's media and goes from there. My HS gf was a junior olympic taekwondo athlete and did jujitsu as well. I played football and was nothing special athletically besides being 6'2 and her being 5'3".  
  Well we decided to wrestle/roughhouse because that's a fun excuse to touch each other but also we were both competitive.
  Well anyways. It was completely one sided. I had never been in a fight or wrestled or anything besides football and some track and field but it was almost a joke how easy it was to win or pin. And we eventually allowed her to kick and hit using her taekwondo but it didn't make a difference. Just weathered one or two blows getting close then hugged and sat on her.  She was very surprised and a little shaken by that but we both learned how much difference a foot of height and 100lbs made. >
  
  I was having a debate with a female friend who was rather athletic because she was victim shaming a rape victim saying she should easily have gotten away from the guy et. The guy was about my size so I grabbed her and pinned her in about 3 seconds. Knowing the victim was smaller and less athletic than her, she shut up. >
  
  Where do you you all live that people need to conduct experiments to understand that a foot of height and one hundred pounds of weight make a big fucking difference lol >
  
  The average human being greatly over estimates how capable they are in a fight. This includes women. >
  
  Can confirm. I'm 6'1" and for a long time thought I was very capable; I'm not. Hard lesson, but 3", 40lbs and some real training taught me better. >
  
  I got in my first real fist fight with someone about a foot taller than me. Learned real quick that reach is real. >
  
  This may sound a little cold, but we can't do everything in life. I want to be an NBA player but wasn't born with the body to accommodate that dream. >
  
  Have you ever thought about trying out for the WNBA? >
  
  They would still kick my ass. >
  
  I think part of the problem lies in the relationship between universities and sports and its worth re-examining. What is the purported role sports are supposed to play at the university level? What are they supposed to be doing for the students? Is it supposed to be a career stepping stone? A place for personal development and gratification? Butts in stadium seats? If the main concern is that a trans woman is potentially "stealing" a spot from a cis woman, what structural changes can be made to ensure that both students feel like they are getting what they need from their institutions? prohibiting trans athletes obviously disproportionately impacts one side, and there is at least insecurity on the part of some cis athletes that the integrity of the sport for them is at risk, and asking them to tough it out generates some understandable qualms and controversies. Is it necessary perhaps to develop a parallel league for these sports so that the cis gendered athletes feel their concerns are addressed and they still have the opportunity to get the professional and personal development they are enrolled in the school for, and the students in the NCAA continue to get what they are looking for as part of their university experience? Or is that just segregation? Does the issue merit more observation before anything should be done? Does it impact so few people that it's not even worth addressing? >
  
  
  If the main concern is that a trans woman is potentially "stealing" a spot from a cis woman, what structural changes can be made to ensure that both students feel like they are getting what they need from their institutions?
  
  I think the major concern there is scholarships. >
  
  Feels like a problem that would be addressed with more affordable or subsidized tuition. >
  
  If we agree that there are separate men's and women's divisions in athletics because men's bodies provide a general inherent advantage.
  How can we not agree that people born with men's bodies shouldn't be competing in the women's divisions?
  I don't get it. I get wanting to be non-discriminatory and accepting of people's gender identities, but we also need to accept that there are certain realities that prevent this from happening in every situation. >
  
  This question is bigger than transgender athletes. They still have to make rules to decide on people like Semenya. >
  
  I feel like we're throwing logic out of the window in favor of inclusivity. I support trans rights and people but it's literally fact that biological males have a physical advantage over biological females. 
  It honestly makes me angry as a woman that womens spaces can be taken over by people with advantages over them and when they speak out, they are called transphobes. >
  
  I said this under a month ago and was banned site-wide for three days for hate speech. >
  
  Trust me, I've said this on other subs and have been downvoted. I'm honestly shocked and relieved this comment wasn't downvoted. It gives me hope that people are becoming sick of this shit. >
  
  There’s a lot of nuance to this. Going through male puberty and then being on T-blockers, I don’t believe, completely negates any advantages. There’s still things like skeletal structure, height, and even upper bound muscular potential that could be considered unnaturally advantageous.
  To have negative impacts on others doesn’t require complete dominance either. If M to F trans individuals even tended to fall on the right side of the bell curve you are pushing others out of scholarships at preferred schools and all together. There's impact here that gets lost in the conversation that I’d argue is even more important than dominating the podiums/record books. For most, the scholarship is worth more than anything else.
  If women overall don’t care I’m not going to die on this hill because truthfully I don’t watch the sports for the most part, but saying nobody should care because they didn’t care about the sport isn’t really fair. People have/will have daughters that will want to pursue collegiate athletics. It’s not about the spectacle necessarily. >
  
  There is a lot of research that needs to happen for cis athletes to compete fairly w trans athletes and I don't think they have the competition rules right just yet. 
  I also think the discussion about trans athletes needs to be reframed.  I have no hate for trans people.  I do want to ensure fair competition for all.  One can be pro inclusion while still taking a position of getting the rules right.   Hs athletics is even more difficult bc they don't have the resources to manage competitions as it is. >
  
  This is the right way to frame it. And it’s how I feel too, especially as someone who worked in College athletics, mostly with female athletes. 
  I support trans people. You should feel comfortable in your body and I’m all for whatever you need to do that. However, athletic competition is dictated heavily by physiology, which is heavily impacted by biological sex and puberty. And there’s such a wide range there. Theres even a difference between someone like Caster Semenya who is a biological woman with high natural testosterone levels and XY chromosomes and Lia Thomas who is M2F transgender after going through male puberty. And there’s no one complaining about about F2M trans athletes, which is a whole other conversation. So it’s really about physiology. 
  Your point about reframing the conversation as a whole is so spot on though. I’m not as concerned about a trans athlete coming in dominating the sport, I’m more concerned about what this does to  shift the sport away from others. Lost scholarships, lost opportunities etc. 
  I just don’t think the science or the research is there to make this happen the way it should right now. >
  
  No amount of research will ever get you an answer that fits every sport other than maybe "there is significant overlap between trans women and cis women's performance". I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't do studies, but at some point it just becomes impossible to prove without a doubt fairness because what makes someone good at a sport is a really complex question. At some point the science stops informing a decision and it becomes about what a sports values are. Also it's not lost scholarships or lost opportunities, it's opportunities going to trans women who will make use of them in the same way a cis woman will. >
  
  What are your thoughts on a trans division for sports? I’ve heard that brought up and while it sounds good at first, it gives me hardcore “separate but equal” vibes and we all know how that turns out. >
  
  Trans people make up .1-.5% of the population. This would effectively just mean we can't complete because there aren't enough of us for there to be scholarships or money on the line. >
  
  Compete in the open division. That's what it's for. >
  
  I’m all for inclusiveness and living your life how you want, but some things are just not in the cards for everyone. That’s how life works, it’s not always fair. 
  Sometimes anatomy or life choices shape what we can do. Not everyone can be a model, not everyone is cut out for physical labor. And not everyone can compete in competitive sports at the top level. That’s life and you know what… that’s ok. >
  
  Its truly unfair how much advantage men have over women in sports. I remember training with an national powerlifter around the same weight as me and I squatted her max pretty easily. I'm not even a big powerlifter guy my max squat is around 500. A guy who is on the elite level around the same weight as me squats 800. >
  
  I played women's soccer in college. We were decent, always dominating most of the other schools we played. The men's team was terrible. Once a year we'd have a "friendly" scrimmage and the boys would crush us. It didn't matter that I was a powerhouse against women, my 5'10, 130 pound frame couldn't compete with 200 lb men. 
  Obviously this argument is much more nuanced than that one anecdote but that's all I think of for these young women athletes. All those years of trainers, camps, coaches to get a scholarship and now the NCAA is forcing an uneven playing field on their dreams. >
  
  To one side: If this goes well and let's say 5 years down the road we don't see any major problems with it do you think you'll be open to conditionally accepting the new norm?
  To the other side: If this does not go well and 5 years down the road we see more and more concerns being demonstrated do you think you'll be open to conceding some of the points made?
  To the middle: Setting aside the out and out winners do you ever think it won't feel a little weird to say have a cis gendered female lose a spot on a team (or something similar) to a trans individual? >
  
  It's tough because how can we define "major problems"? Any time a trans woman wins or sets a record people will question the fairness. And it's weird to say "ok you can compete as long as you don't do too well." >
  
  
  It's tough because how can we define "major problems"?
  
  Is that tough? If a distinct competitive advantage is identified, that'd be a "major problem" in a competitive sport, end of.
  
  And it's weird to say "ok you can compete as long as you don't do too well."
  
  If a distinct edge was agreed to exist, then you'd just say "you can't compete here". >
  
  You probably won’t advocate for banning cis women over certain heights though, even though that’s also a distinct competitive advantage. All top athletes have advantages they were born with that others were not >
  
  And that’s the issue. Sports by their very nature are unfair. You can be as talented as you want, you’ll never be an NBA Center if you’re born 5’ 6”. Is that unfair to most people? Yes. But that’s how sports work. The issue is finding the balance between unfairness of sports and inclusion of people who want to play them. Maybe having a trans woman in Woman’s sports is unfair, but having her in men’s sports would be unfair to her. And there’s not enough for a trans league. So how do you let trans athletes play a sport they enjoy at a somewhat competitive level? Tough issue. >
  
  Most trans athletes stay about the same rank from before and after their transitions. It’s not a huge advantage, or they would rank significantly higher after. 
  Also the scale of this issue is lost on people. In my home state, there are only 5 trans athletes competing at the high school level or higher. FIVE. 
  But there have been over 10 bills introduced in my state targeting trans athletes in 2023 alone. >
  
  FYI my opinion lines up with your take. I think it’s a very minor non issue that has neither clearly shown a massive advantage nor really impacts 99% of the population due to so few trans athletes competing. 
  But I think it’s fair to consider the data and if we do see a disproportionate amount of trans athletes winning, to review league setups. >
  
  Yeah I agree with that, especially for big time competitions. My problem is that the bills being passed target even trans kids trying to play rec sports with their friends :( 
  There might be valid aspects of the debate, but it’s shrouded in disinformation about trans bodies and thinly veiled hate >
  
  I think one major issue is a lot of people do not consider trans women women. That's really the heart of this. Nobody complains about the William's sisters dominating women's tennis for near 2 decades because they're women despite the massive skill gap. But to many trans women are not women, they are men who look like women. So from that view it is unfair to have women compete against men who look like women (Not my take, just the take I think really divides the issue). >
  
  Yeah I agree. Although you’d be surprised how many people openly questioned whether or not the William’s sister should be allowed to compete because of THEIR bodies. The history of black women not being allowed to compete because of “unfair natural advantages” is a full history, and the debate around trans women echos the debate around women of color. It kind of makes it appear as though the real issue is that no one wants to see black or queer people on podiums >
  
  When it comes to sports, biological gender matters. Being biologically male gives a person an advantage. It doesn’t give an advantage over every woman, but it’s performance enhancing enough to worthy of consideration. Transgender rights are important and we as a society need to try to treat people who have transitioned the way they want to be treated. But there’s always a but. Competitive sports is a measure of ability. Unless it’s already a co-Ed environment, it doesn’t make logical sense to permit those with a potential biological advantage to compete with those without it. >
  
  thank you, how is this just not accepted? There is gender and then there is sex. Men and Women's sports are divided by sex (chromosome makeup), not gender. This is not done for social reasons or any sort of "phobia".  It's done because men (XY) and women (XX) are extremely different in the physical realms and that will never change. >
  
  Sports and trans issues are a weird hill to die on. I mean, do we not separate sport
  Competitions based on gender already? 
  My dumb ass is terrible at sports but at the top level, there is obviously a difference or we would call the WNBA the NBA for example. 
  Pretending this is just discrimination and not an advantage is weird. I’m all for trans rights. 
  Be whatever pronoun you want to be, dress however you want, we are all humans and deserve human decency. 
  However, come on! >
  
  Just look at box and martial arts, they discrimate by weight, sometime by single pounds, the whole point of having sport with rules is to discriminate to keep fairness. >
  
  In boxing it is at a minimum 3 lbs between weight classes. With that said a 120lb male and female are not the same in strength. >
  
  I am happy to support trans people. I think they deserve to be treated fairly and with respect, just like everyone else. But there are biological differences, and this is just a bridge too far for me. >
  
  same. what i can't figure out is why the specific trans athletes in question aren't speaking up and saying "hey everyone i get it, i just want to be here and do sports because I love the sport, but please don't count my times". not only is this good sportsmanship (sportspersonship?) it would also help garner support for other trans people. >
  
  Because they do not want separate spaces for themselves. I spoke about the community should be fighting for rape shelters and they refused. Said they prefer to use womens rape shelters instead. >
  
  Athletic excellence is exactly what it sounds like: excellence. It's a subsection of the population selected at the extreme. When you select for the extreme, the biggest, tallest, fastest people are going to be men, and the smallest, shortest, balanced (center of gravity and mass symmetry) people are going to be women.
  I'm not going to sit here and pretend I actually care about women's sports, but one I do actually take interest in is women's gymnastics. Why? Everyone who is the best at it on Earth are women. Simone Biles is probably the best women's gymnast to ever live, and she's 4'8" and 104lbs. All of the best gymnasts are small, short, and have incredibly well balanced frames. They're all women, and I have yet to hear a single peep about inclusion of transwomen to compete in professional women's gymnastics. Why? They wouldn't make the cut to begin with. The sport is so distinctly a test of what the extremes of female biology can accomplish, there is nothing but disadvantages for transwomen to compete.
  It seems to me that people are deliberately ignoring the important fact that males and females are different. Moreso ignoring the even more important fact: it's OK to be different. Human biological diversity is a strength, not a weakness. >
  
  I'm pro rights and left as fuck but this is just unfair and we all know it. >
  
  Same here. >
  
  Should just cancel title 9 since gender is a state of mind.  Obviously women don't need to have scholarships and opportunities available to them exclusively any more. 
  /S >
  
  Interesting to see the flipped perspective / dynamics. Thanks >
  
  Good. Separate sex divisions were something hard fought for for decades and is being shoved out in years in people don't stand up to the insanity. >
  
  .3% of women athletes should not ruin the fairness of sport for 99.7% of women athletes. Sounds unfair to the small minority of trans athletes, but the it makes no sense to do otherwise. >
  
  It’s unfair to the 99% of women who no matter how hard they train could still be beat in competition by a trans woman >
  
  If Transgender Women didn’t have an advantage over Cisgender Women based on Biology than Transgender Men would be competing against Cisgender Men. Obviously Biology is a factor and can’t be disregarded. This has nothing to do with Civil or Human Rights but is merely saying that in Sports everyone should compete on a level playing field otherwise Steroids and other performance enhancing drugs would be acceptable. We outlaw the doping of Horses with performance enhancing drugs or hormones. >
  
  
  than Transgender Men would be competing against Cisgender Men.
  
  They do. Two of the more well known examples being. 
  Schuyler Bailar, was in the top 15% of all male swimmers in the university level and won third in the championships. 
  Chris Mosier won 2nd in his age group for the national duathelon championships. >
  
  Are there any trans female to male, trying to compete in biological male sports!
  Or is this issue exclusive to trans male to female trying to compete against biological females? 🤔 >
  
  They are debating the destruction of experience for several cohorts.  If there are no downsides, then great, welcome to the feminine party.  But that is jackassian thinking.  No one in their right mind can deny that biologically-male bodies competing in physical sports with females will skew things unfairly toward the wannabes.  If you even think about making the argument that “no, it’ll be a fair contest because..”, then fuck right off.
  Kids get ONE shot through school.  It is beyond fucked-up that a tiny minority will be allowed to destroy their experiences. >
  
  XY chromosome category - Anyone can choose to compete in this category
  XX category - XY not allowed to compete in this category. >
  
  I never see this topic brought up in women specific subs here. I see just the opposite. Women argue how easily an average man can overpower and dominate even a strong woman's physical ability. A trans woman still carries that same physical ability.
  How many women's athletes are in this conversation right now arguing for trans women to be included in their sport? >
  
  The women subs are ran by biological males. >
  
  Did you seriously just use the far right religious group Alliance Defending Freedom as a source? 
  Not to mention the article is a blatant lie from them. Lia Thomas was a top competitor in male competitions before transitioning.
  
  On the men's swim team in 2018–2019, Thomas finished second in the men's 500, 1,000, and 1,650-yard freestyle at the Ivy League championships as a sophomore in 2019. During the 2018–2019 season, Thomas recorded the top university men's team times in the 500 free, 1000 free, and 1650 free.
  
  Also, did you actually read the list of examples that ADF gave there?
  
  A male athlete, who formerly played on an NCAA Division III women’s soccer team, now plays for Team USA Women’s Beach Handball.
  
  What does any of this have to do with anything? The majority of their examples aren't even of records being broken, but of trans women existing on sports teams. >
  
  It’s not hard. Easy fix. Two divisions; open and XX chromosome. Anyone can participate in the Open division. XX chromosome requires exactly that. FtM would be required to compete in Open.
  Everyone has a place to compete then. Simple. >
  
  Except it's not that simple. People are born with XX chromosome but with a penis, testicles, and all the testosterone that comes with it. There was even a female Olympic athlete that was forced to take hormone therapy because her natural levels of testosterone were "too high".
  Anyone who pretends there is a simple solution is not educated on the subject. >
  
  I need a source on this claim that people can be born with xx chromosmes and still have a penis. >
  
  I dont think that is a thing, but androgen insensitivity disorder (xy chromosomes and a vagina) is. >
  
  The only thing that determines if you grow with a penis or a vagina is if you uptake testosterone in the womb. You can be XX and get too much testosterone and develop a penis.
  Your sex chromosomes only make it much more likely for you to get the correct amount of testosterone. >
  
  Eh,,
  I dont care anymore. If there is a biological unfair advantage/disadvantage, it will show itself and hopefully those in charge will see it and make necessary changes.
  There are studies/papers "proving" there are AND arent biological difference between a cis person and trans person. 
  In Lia Thomas case, I do find it weird when she was a man, she was like 200th or something place in Mens category...suddenly became a woman and dominated? That I find weird and kinda obvious...But im just the peanut gallery, I only see what is shown to me.. >
  
  IIRC - If you take a deeper dive she was ridiculously good in the mens division (best in her university, 6th fastest nation-wide) and ranked well before she started transitioning. The 200th thing is how far she dropped after being on HRT. Now she's like 50th in the women's division.
  Edit: clarity >
  
  Wow, you mean to say that transphobes were spreading a false narrative based on specious interpretation of cherry-picked facts? I would never have expected this! >
  
  Labeling anyone who unknowingly spreads incomplete information they heard as a transphobe does not help the discussion and works against progress itself. Plenty of people “in the peanut gallery” who just know what’s put before them. They’re not transphobic for not caring enough to dig deep into her history to figure things out for themselves, and repeating what they’ve heard when the discussion comes up >
  
  Let's be perfectly real, the people who started that one knew very well that it wasn't true and the malice was the point. >
  
  Why do women's leagues exist? >
  
  Because when open leagues fill their roster with the best players, it winds up being all-male.
  Only way for women to compete is in a separate league that forbids males. >
  
  Ruining women's sports by bending over backwards for the trans constituency. A record book with asterisks is not a record book. Without the asterisks it becomes an officially supported outright lie.
  In the meantime, any woman who finishes second behind a transgender person should have that recorded officially and should not be regarded as having lost the contest. >
  
  If you are a genetic male (XY) then you have an unfair advantage in bone structure alone. There is no amount of hormones that will turn your male bone structure female. 
  While I feel for those who transition, it is absolutely unfair to genetic females (XX) for an XY female to compete. 
  I’m all for treating transitioned females with love and respect, but I think competitive sports needs to remain segregated by genetics, not gender, which is fluid.
  Edit: XX not YY. >
  
  If you don’t even know what chromosomes women have, why should we trust your supposedly nuanced argument on bone structure? >
  
  I swear this whole debate is going to devolve into phrenology soon >
  
  Some people here have pretty lumpy heads, all right. >
  
  Problem is you can't argue separate gender sports without first accepting separate genders... >
  
  Athletes should compete against their original sex. >
  
  That would mean women's sports being dominated by FtM people. Is that really what you want? >
  
  I've always advocated for a league that allows performance enhancing drugs regardless of sex. >
  
  The basic problem with the whole debate is that surveys have an n of like five people. Athletes are rare, trans people are rare, trans athletes are vanishingly rare.
  Well. The basic empirical problem. 
  The basic rhetorical problem is that no one outside the American right wing believes the American right wing is approaching the issue in anything even vaguely approximating good faith. >
  
  If trans people want to compete in sport then why isn’t the solution to create additional leagues? Trans leagues. Problem solved. You’re welcome, world. >
  
  There's a hockey one already. First game a trans woman gave a trans man a concussion. >
  
  Lets just solve this by allowing the men’s leagues to be open to anyone, that way there’s no biological advantages and everyone wins >
  
  South Park already dealt w this decisively >
  
  One of the best episodes too >
  
  Can we all just stop pretending that this stuff isn't weird? >
  
  I guess my issue with this is two points. First, you won’t see many FTM get onto Men’s teams but there will be many MTF on Women’s teams. Secondly, transwomen are at risk of injuring a teammate because of the difference in size (depending on the sport). The issue here may be that it cannot be black & white, yes or no, but variable on the sport at hand. >
  
  Bodies play sports, not identities. >
  
  If a women wants to switch more power to her. She’s going in at a disadvantage, maybe even if she is in test or something.
  But men switching is a no for me. No matter what drugs you pump into them, they will still have an advantage. >
  
  They should just make an "open" category then. >
  
  The mens side is “open” in just about every sport. >
  
  Why aren't there women then? There's no biological difference! Must be rampant systemic discrimination!!