comment: >
  
  It's irrelevant if you expect every women will be paired wit some man. Which is not the case. 
  ...it really is that easy if you are attractive. 
  I'm not saying women are bad, I'm saying they are picky. Which they have full right to be.
context: /u/ToppedYaByAccident (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
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  Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
  ^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards >
  
  CMV: Parents of poor people failed to prepare them financially for life.
  CMV: Parents of fat people failed to prepare them healthwise for life.
  CMV: Parents of antisocial people failed to prepare them socially for life.
  CMV: Parents of criminals failed to prepare them for a life in society.
  This is a question of nature vs. nurture vs. free will. Do you agree with every statement above? Does every child of a shitty parent turn out shitty? Does every child of a great parent turn out great?
  If the answer to any of the above CMVs above is no, then some of the responsibility must rely on the individual. Is it fair? No. Do we all bear some responsibility for our actions??? >
  
  You are making a VERY incorrect assumption that incels lack adequate parenting while people who have sex had adequate parenting. That is way off base. In the example you used, you reference a different unhealthy relationship pattern. A literal child doing drugs, neglecting sleep, and having potentially unsafe sex due to those factors, is NOT something to aspire to.
  Incels need therapy. That’s it. Like a lot of other people. Parenting causes a lot of issues, but boiling down the complex psychology of incels to bad parenting is woefully inadequate. >
  
  There is no one or nothing that incels won't blame for their crap -- except themselves. 
  It's society not providing good role models! 
  It's parents not teaching them how to date or letting them do drugs! (which, wtf)!
  It's people being mean and not "reaching out!"
  It is always, always, women.
  It's never that they're just toxic, misogynistic losers who lack ambition, achievement, interest, anything but their juvenile ire and blaming. >
  
  
  they're just toxic, misogynistic losers who lack ambition, achievement, interest, anything but their juvenile ire and blaming.
  
  Does it mean that you exclude the possibility of a genuinely good person being involuntarily celibate? >
  
  
  The guys in high school that got the girls were allowed to stay out late, get access to drugs/alcohol and party with them. It may not be the BEST parenting, but these kids leave high school with massively high self-esteems.
  
  I did drugs, alcohol and had many girlfriends during high-school. But that didn't really improve my self-esteem that much. Rather, because of low self-esteem I was doing dangerous to my body. When you have low self-esteem, anxiety, depression etc. no amount of "achievements" really matter to you - that's how celebrities, rich and otherwise successful people suffer from these issues as well despite having objectively, from your point of view, no reason to do so. 
  
  I wish my multiracial family taught me
  
  It's not your family's job to teach you how to date. Chances are, your family is out of touch with the teenage dating trends and any advice they might throw at you might be useless and outdated. 
  Case in point, the type of people you've mentioned (the ones who do drugs, alcohol and date a lot of girls) don't really receive a lot of parental orientation and guidance and still get to date a lot. 
  Besides, you underestimate teenagers' ability to not give a damn about any sort of advice you might throw at them, even if it's the best advice in the world. 
  Let me give an example: 
  
  It also would’ve been nice to tell me that most women don’t like “good, Christian boys,” and prefer the outspoken and extroverted.
  
  In terms of what - hookups or actual relationships? 
  If you're asking about hooking up with girls and getting laid, you are less likely to do that by being a good Christian guy because girls who are into hookups aren't that interested in marriage, children or christian values in general. 
  If you're looking for serious relationships, you're more likely to find one by being a good Christian guy because women who are interested in marriage, children etc. value stability, security, reliability etc. over anything else. 
  Young people are not generally into long term relationships. Older people are generally not into short term relationships. 
  This is all the advice you're ever going to need and I'm sure this is anything you haven't figured out yet. The problem is that if you're trying to get laid but you're claiming to be a good Christian guy, you're going to have as much of a good time as any guy who's screwing dozens of women will have to keep a stable relationship going. 
  The point is that no one can't really teach you how to "talk with suitors" if you haven't made up your mind as to what exactly you want from life - and once you do, you'll figure out how to talk with them yourself. >
  
  !delta 
  Very, very great points here, specifically the paragraphs about parents having outdated mindsets, and the last paragraph about making up your mind about what you want in life. >
  
  Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/SangerNegru (1∆).
  ^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards >
  
  When you're talking about "incles" you're talking about "a common stereotype of people who can't get laid". Different people can't get into a relationship for different reasons, and it's all individual and very complex. 
  I don't know why 'Chad' and 'Stacy' are bad stereotypes, but 'a stereotypical incel' is a good stereotype. It's not. And you can't find a 'cure' from 'being unable to get laid' that will help everyone >
  
  Things were so much more hierarchical than they are now; and the world is less brutal. I’m sure there were groups of men that literally killed other men just to take their wives. >
  
  
  in the fourth century BC, Plato was heard to remark: "What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets, inflamed with wild notions.
  
  Kids don't really listen to adults about the future, and a child's peers (or those perceived as peers in terms of the internet) have a very profound effect that I think you're ignoring. I.e., I think you are over-valuing parental-input and under-valuing peer-input.
  Every generation admonishes the youth for not listening, so the solution can't be to get the youth to listen: it's been a non-starter since, at least, ancient Greece.
  While, of course, I agree it's good to educate your kids, this is not "the solution" to Incels, imo. >
  
  I understand your perspective, but I disagree with the idea that parents of incels are solely responsible for their children's challenges in navigating the world of romance. While it's true that parents can play a role in teaching their children about healthy relationships and communication skills, there are many other factors that can contribute to an individual's challenges in finding and maintaining romantic relationships.
  It's important to recognize that incels, like all individuals, are complex and multifaceted, and that their challenges may be influenced by a variety of internal and external factors. These may include their own beliefs, behaviors, and coping mechanisms, as well as societal norms and expectations, past experiences, and mental health issues.
  Rather than blaming parents for their children's challenges, it's important to take a more nuanced and holistic approach that addresses the many factors that may be contributing to an individual's struggles. This may involve providing support and guidance to both parents and their children, as well as addressing any underlying mental health issues and helping individuals develop the skills and coping mechanisms they need to navigate the world of romance in a healthy and positive way. >
  
  If incels were a product of parents failing to prepare them for romantic life, you'd expect to see clusters of several incels in a family, but in my experience (and totally anecdotally) that doesn't seem to be the case. I've known multiple incels with same-sex siblings who have reasonably successful romantic lives
  Now, I feel like your argument is maybe framed a bit tautologically - "They're unprepared for romantic life, and if their parents had prepared them for romantic life they'd be prepared for romantic life." But I think preparing children for romantic life is something that's likely to be super child-specific, and not something one could do reliably even if it was a serious focus and parents did everything they could to educate themselves on the topic. >
  
  I think clustering is an important factor to look for, as well. >
  
  
  The guys in high school that got the girls were allowed to stay out late, get access to drugs/alcohol and party with them. It may not be the BEST parenting, but these kids leave high school with massively high self-esteems.
  
  Erm, my experience is the opposite. They leave with massively low self esteem because they believe they need to be a drugged up partier in order to make friends and get attention.
  
  Parents of incels coddle their kids; they’re not honest enough about their child’s shortcomings and they should be teaching them how to compensate
  
  What does "coddling" mean in this context?
  What makes you say this? In my experience, it's taught. Maybe not directly, but teaching kids hygiene and how to interact with the world should teach them this. Kids just don't really think bad things will happen to them and don't have the best ability to foresee consequences years in advance.
  "Teaching kids" doesn't exclusively mean sitting them down and talking about the subject. >
  
  Fair enough!
  “Coddling,” is not making them live on their own and/or sheltering them from the brutality and harshnesses of the world. 
  I have a little cousin, he’s a young man, and he REFUSES to learn how to ride a bike because “it’s scary.” My old, racist roommate was an official incel…every move he made was to “impress women.” He’s a 33 year-old man who slithers in basements, has his parents pay for his car, his housing, his food, has weird hentai play-mats for playing cards, etc, etc. It’s very clear that his parents never pushed him to be independent, self aware, etc.
  Partly why you have these psycho’s lurking around killing innocent people is because of a lack of preparation for the harsh realities of the world. I hate to delve into race, but I am from WV, and I can’t BEGIN to tell you how many of them actually believe that because they’re not short and white, they actually have a leg up on someone working hard. Ppl from where I’m from look at white skin and assume wealth and stability, and I’m thankful for this because it mentally prepared me to never give up because of how you look.
  This is why racism, 4chan and involuntary celibacy connect…racism, in many ways, is a perpetuation of laziness; many of these men grew up believing that because they look a certain way, they’re “guaranteed,” to succeed in dating and sex. Good parents teach their kids, “hey, EVERYONE, no matter what you look like, is gunning for success; here is what you need to succeed.” >
  
  
  This is why racism, 4chan and involuntary celibacy connect…racism, in many ways, is a perpetuation of laziness; many of these men grew up believing that because they look a certain way, they’re “guaranteed,” to succeed in dating and sex. Good parents teach their kids, “hey, EVERYONE, no matter what you look like, is gunning for success; here is what you need to succeed.”
  
  I don't believe it is racism that is the culprit, although you're free to have that opinion.  The whole culture was more traditional; but the culture has changed and women aren't looking for merely a provider anymore they're looking for a lot more.  It used to be that good providers made the best husbands and you'd want to lock one down fast or else you'd be left behind, because women didn't really have great access to good paying jobs.  But women have way more freedom and they can get great jobs, so that's meant that the demands on men have increased (rightfully so.)  But the mindset of some guys has not updated to the culture, they want traditional women without being so traditional themselves, a disconnect that is leaving them behind. >
  
  Thanks for this! Great insight >
  
  There's so much wrong with what you are saying, I'm not sure where to start.
  
  Parents of incels are not forward enough with their children when it comes to navigating the world of romance; most don’t prepare them for rejection or teach them how to show a romantic partner a good time.
  
  I don't see how we can tell if this is true. Incels seem to pick up a lot of their thinking from YouTube, Reddit, and other places that offer toxic thinking to lonely people.
  
  The guys in high school that got the girls were allowed to stay out late, get access to drugs/alcohol and party with them.
  
  The guys in high school that got certain girls, maybe. A lot of people would have considered my friends and I "losers" in high school because we didn't party or drink, didn't do drugs, etc. We all still had girlfriends from time to time though. It might be hard to believe, but a lot of girls don't do drugs or party either.
  
  It may not be the BEST parenting, but these kids leave high school with massively high self-esteems.
  
  Having known a lot of these kids personally, this is utter bullshit.
  
  Parents of incels coddle their kids
  
  Do they? I'd be willing to bet that parents of incels are probably fairly toxic people in their own right. We're just making assumptions here though, so no one really knows.
  
  they’re not honest enough about their child’s shortcomings and they should be teaching them how to compensate. And if they don’t coddle their kids, they’re certainly not teaching them the necessary tools/soft skills to talk to a suitor.
  
  I don't know many parents who tell their kids how to get laid. And let's be honest, that's what incels are talking about. Incels aren't looking for meaningful relationships, they just want pussy. They're desperate for it, and angry that they aren't getting it.
  
  And you shouldn’t call your kids ugly or body shame them, but you need to politely tell them about the possibilities of loneliness if they’re not staying active, socializing, have a certain look that deviates from what society deems as “attractive,” etc.
  
  I'm going to go back to my personal experience here. I'm not "attractive" in any conventional way. I'm not overly social, not active, I'm into nerdy shit like D&D and Marvel (comics and movies). My parents didn't talk to me about loneliness or how to get chicks. I've done fine though, because I never blamed society or my parents or (and this is the most important) women in general when I got rejected romantically. 
  
  I’m not an incel
  
  Eh...
  
  It also would’ve been nice to tell me that most women don’t like “good, Christian boys,” and prefer the outspoken and extroverted.
  
  Again, that really depends on the type of women you're looking for. There are tons of women who would love a good, Christian boy.
  The problem with incels isn't their parents, or society, or women, it's them. Incels at some point decide they want to fuck the head cheerleader, and if they can't do that, someone else must be to blame for it. They prioritize physical attraction over literally everything else, and spend so much of their energy worrying about how to get laid, they forget to be actual human beings who can interact with someone else. They treat social interactions as transactional and spend a lot of time and energy on trying to figure out the right combination of moves to "win" the interaction. >
  
  Your account seems fairly reductive. And I think you're probably assigning far too much significance to relatively minor aspects of parenting. 
  I've known many families in which the different children had very different social experiences, personal preferences and romantic outcomes. Presumably, these children received similar parenting, so it must have been other factors which led to their divergent outcomes. What's more, I've observed very little correlation between any particular style of parenting a particular romantic outcomes, except perhaps in very extreme cases.
  
  The guys in high school that got the girls were allowed to stay out late, get access to drugs/alcohol and party with them. It may not be the BEST parenting, but these kids leave high school with massively high self-esteems.
  
  My experience is that there is very little relationship between one's social life as a teenager and adult outcomes. Sure, some 'popular' or 'cool' kids grow into successful, charismatic adults. But plenty find that partying and studied apathy haven't really prepared them for adulthood. They burnout as soon as they've left high school. Conversely, plenty of awkward teenagers with no romantic experience grow into themselves and have healthy relationships in adulthood.
  People are too complicated to just blame the parents. >
  
  Idk man…I think many of the associations we make in the world stem from our parents, no?
  I’ve observed many correlations between style of parenting and romantic outcomes….guys I’ve known who have outgoing Fathers (like mine) tend to learn some of their conversing techniques/styles. We all ultimately develop our own, but there’s a base there to draw from.
  Funny enough, kids with absent Fathers and live with single mothers KILLED with women because:
  
  
  While Mom was working, the streets raised him, and the streets love promiscuity.
  
  
  They’re raised strictly by a woman so they most likely learned a lot about them, what women really want and what they like to hear.
  
  
  There’s more often than not less parental structure, so you’re more likely to get a “rebel,” and a lot of women out there LOVE rebels. Like for example, where I’m from, guys like this get tattoos very early, and this is during the rise of tattoos in popular culture. 
  
  
  And there are other reasons…but I do want to state that I don’t think you’re wrong, and greatly appreciate your input. >
  
  How exactly do you "prepare someone for rejection"? >
  
  You let them know that it’s going to happen, not everyone is going to like you and that’s ok. Don’t take rejection personally; take it with grace and move on; plenty of fish in the sea and all that. >
  
  How effective do you think just saying those things is in preventing resentment?
  Can't we just say "sticks and stones..." and solve the whole problem of insults once and for all? "You don't need a relationship" and solve loneliness altogether? Or say "just be happy with what you have" and eradicate most of human suffering? >
  
  You had me and then lost me in the last paragraph. Women love men, so get your power up(career, business, money), get in shape, and get your charisma up (Being social, to learn to talk to people). If you have 2 out of 3 of these things, women will chase you. If you have all 3, then you will have trouble keeping women off you.
  It's not about race, religion, or status really, it's about fun. Women like men who are fun. You a nerd? Great, Cosplay it up and really embrace it. Women respect passion, even if they don't get it. I say get all this other stuff because women come when you are not focused on them. So get your situation right so you can really choose who and what you want. >
  
  Thanks for replying! As I’ve said in another reply, I’m not a good looking man but have had steady success eith women most likely due to my compensation in other areas of life.
  I’m great at making ppl feel “warm,” and comfortable and not to toot my own horn, but I am a brick shit house now (5’11, 210, could lose a few bucks LOL), or at least that’s what my coworkers tell me. 
  My point is that I wish they broadened some of my social horizons at a younger age, but they did a great job overall imo lol! >
  
  Incels are losers who are mad at women for not choosing losers. It doesn't matter if you look like a foot, women love passionate and respectful men. Incels just need to get over themselves and step it up. >
  
  Agreed, but I think parents can step up and put them in situations where they learn more about themselves. >
  
  Women find 80% of men look "below average"
  There's no preparing kids for those odds
  Edit: I get it, you want a source. It's the study on OkCupid data, the original source gives a 404 >
  
  
  Women find 80% of men look "below average"
  
  And since there are not enough males for every woman to settle with 20% it is irrelevant. Or do you think that women will be alone until top-20% sempai notices them?
  Women find 80% of men "below average" but also do not see looks as the most important thing. The issue with incels is that they severely suck at using anything but looks and fantasize on how it would be easy if they would be handsome instead on focusing on bettering themselves.
  Nearly all those redpill threads that I have seen point here and there on CMV are filled with the same - leaps and twists of logic to justify why "wahmen bad" and they can't get laid even if they are so nice (a.k.a doing the minimum like rest of normal humans).