comment: >
  
  Hm. Why not decriminalize and provide drugs for free as long as they’re taken in injection centers, plus offer voluntary rehab with free housing. However if you commit a crime while on drugs it’s either a long time in  jail or mandatory rehab.
  It’s going to be an expensive thing to fix no matter what they do so why not go full blown open access drug paradise and at least have the possibility of reducing crime by screwing over the dealers while possibly reducing petty crime.
  Vancouver has tried everything else on the ‘soft touch’ side of the spectrum yet the downtown area has been an embarrassing shitshow for the last 20 years, and only getting worse. 
  Jaded Vancouverites seem to somehow find it tolerable enough to ignore but I have seen literal slums in third world countries that are far cleaner and less sketchy.
context: That headline misses the “new” part of the news. Vancouver not charging people for possessing personal amounts of drugs is already how it’s worked for a long time so there’s no change there. The new thing that starts tomorrow is that the Federal government has now decriminalized this for the entire Province of British Columbia. So it’s every police force in BC other than Vancouver that’s embarking on something new. >
  
  Hopefully this will progress to provincial health coverage >
  
  In Canada... that is actually in the realm of the possible.
  Decrim alone can create as many problems as it solves. Decreased enforcement has to be accompanied by increased treatment, intervention... you need to put more people on the job, no substitute. >
  
  That's why ome country, I think it's sweden?, Actually has clinics where someone who wants to do heroin can go and do it in a sanitary environment with a clean needle. They will offer them rehab of they want, but not force it. >
  
  This is something we only wish for Sweden. I think we still have have the highest death count of heroin addicts in the EU. Drug laws here are ridiculous. You could get sentenced to 6 month in prison for having smoked weed. No possession or anything, just being high. It's up to the courts to decide. The police can also force you to produce a urine sample or take a blood sample from you upon suspicion. The clinics you describe most probably do not exist here. You may think Sweden is progressive, and liberal, but when it comes to drug laws we live in the dark ages still. >
  
  This frankly shocks me. I always thought Sweden was very progressive with drug laws. I wonder where I got that impression. 🤔 >
  
  You are probably thinking of Switzerland... >
  
  In The Realm of Hungry Ghosts is an interesting read. It gets critical of conventional drug policy but I thought the anecdotes from the Vancouver streets were the most interesting >
  
  Gabor Mate is one of the most important people in the world of drug policy—he’s a key player in helping society transition from the failed “war on drugs” to adopting the harm reduction model. As long as moronic, anti science politicians don’t mess it up, countless lives will be saved, and countless others will be made easier by adopting this approach. Please everyone go read Gabor’s books or just listen to him talk on YouTube. Such an amazing person >
  
  
  As long as moronic, anti science politicians don’t mess it up, countless lives will be saved, and countless others will be made easier by adopting this approach. 
  
  This can be said for practically all policy.
  It's sad that those moronic, anti science politicians so frequently mess it up. >
  
  It's all of British Columbia not Vancouver. >
  
  Seeing Vancouver one would already assume hard drugs are legal >
  
  Can confirm, I live in a suburb of Vancouver and was downtown over the weekend, shits crazy with open drug use and homelessness. >
  
  My foreign students say our city smells like piss >
  
  I thought that was Winnipeg? >
  
  No, no, no. Winnipeg looks like shit. Vancouver smells like piss. >
  
  When’s the last time you were downtown Winnipeg? I assure you it reeks of piss
  Open drug use is common as well >
  
  Nothing smells when it's -30 lol >
  
  It’s currently -31 and I assure you it still smells like piss in all the bus stops >
  
  This is not a good idea.  They are just following the Oregon model instead of Portugal model.
  Oregon did not increase the resources for rehab and they're now suffering a massive increase in drug users, homelessness, and criminality. 
  Portugal increased rehab availability and made successful completion of a rehab program an option for criminals instead of jail time for many crimes. >
  
  Yes, and it *really* helps to embolden all the Fox News types (and closeted Fox News types who "want progressive things" but will change their tune the second there's a homeless tent within 10 blocks of their home) to say "See!? What we really need is more cops and zero-tolerance policies."
  Can we please get our fucking shit together on this and make the mental health/rehab investments while we still have a voting public that will approve them?? Keep this shit up and you'll turn places like Vancouver and Portland into conservative bastions because you'll convince people "progressives can't govern" or some such inane shit. >
  
  The only solution is involuntary treatment imo. We have to deal with these issues daily in the SF Bay Area as well. You can have all the treatment / support in place but if people would prefer to do drugs in the street vs. the rules & restrictions that inevitably come with living under public subsidization we need to have mechanisms to make that decision for them if they are being a danger to the public.  
  Homelessness is a deep-seated issue but there are ways we can prevent people dying on the streets and harassing others in the short-term while we TRY and fix the underlying issues driving general homelessness >
  
  You understand exactly how ludicrously arbitrary and contradictory your statements are right?
  First, how long is this, involuntary treatment?  You understand that by making anything, involuntary, that just makes it jail right?  You can talk at them, lecture them, give access to 1on1 and group therapy all day long... But if they wanted to take a walk or have a night out with friends they can't, because they have literally been jailed.  
  Next, what makes you think that just because someone was involuntarily taken out of their environment and detained in a place they don't want to be, they will leave and be successful in their recovery?
  It is very well researched and documented that voluntary admissions to treatment are enormously more successful than court ordered(involuntary).  I don't know the numbers, but the adjective enormous is accurate enough.
  Why do you think that is?  Well, cause voluntary means they want it for themselves.  They are there for themselves.  Even voluntary admissions(initiated and pushed by spouses/family/friends) are wildly less successful than truly voluntary admissions... I wonder why?
  I wonder why incarcerated addicts almost never maintain sobriety after release, even after a multi year bid.  Hmmmm I wonder why?  
  Get outta here with this forget and sit attitude.  The only way seems to be constant and positive introductions to recovery materials/locations, harm prevention in the meantime, allowing the addict to choose recovery and life for themselves.  I. Wonder. Why? >
  
  Going to try to stay polite (give it a go sometime) and agree with you that for the vast majority of people - voluntary treatment and resources will be far more successful. 
  I'm talking about the small, but visible group of folks who will likely NEVER accept treatment and the strings attached with it. What do we do when people are so mentally ill due to years of drug abuse that they can't make proper decisions for themselves? Do we let them rot on the street until the 'lightbulb' turns on or do we realize some people need more intervention than they will ever be able to accept? Seems like a good way to destroy public support for necessary progressive policies 
  Portugal, who everyone is praising in this thread, will let you pick jail or forced rehab if you commit a crime while on drugs. They don't let you street camp and hope you come to the realization you should to go rehab
  No one should go to jail for consuming drugs imo. But what is your solution to people who are a danger to themselves and others who refuse to accept resources and treatments?  I don't think it's letting them 'be', that seems like a 'forget & sit' attitude to me personally. >
  
  There is no right answer.... People should never be jailed for possession because that will never work.  If they commit an assaultive crime, than yes they should be arrested.
  But there will never be an answer for the best thing to do with someone that won't stop using.  If you don't believe someone should be arrested for consumption (possession), you can't just incarcerate them because they have been using for a decade.  The only real answer is harm prevention, constant introduction to treatment and recovery material, and either wait for that human adult, to commit a jailable offense or yes, let them live freely.  Just like you would expect for yourself if your not hurting others.  
  If someone is so mentally ill they cannot care for themselves and end up homeless, addicted or not, that is a completely separate problem our society does not seem capable to deal with.  We don't have the facilities and caregivers to involuntarily commit people who are a danger to themselves and that SHOULD be different.
  But like you said, we shouldn't incarcerate individuals due to possession.  Addicted or not, these people absolutely deserve the same freedoms and rights that you expect for yourself.  Snatch a purse, rob a gas station, break into a home and hit someone in the head with hammer..... Everything changes. Simple. >
  
  I think we are on the same page - simply doing drugs and not hassling anyone shouldn't warrant any sort of government intervention imo. But to your point, we need to build or rebuild the capacity to truly take care of people who are dangerous and having mental health/drug crises that isn't prison. >
  
  Lol.. have you been to Vancouver lately >
  
  If you’ve never seen people publicly shoot up hard drugs then go visit Vancouver, it may as well already be decriminalized there anyways so this isn’t really going to change much I bet >
  
  Toronto has entered the chat.  It’s not as bad here (yet) but declining fast…  source (one of many) >
  
  Trying to get a little bit of tourism I see >
  
  Hey, Vancouver B.C. Take a look at Oregon, specifically portland, and let me know how this is gonna work well for you. Sincerely, a saddened portland native. >
  
  I live in Portland now, but have you ever been to east hastings in Vancouver? It makes Portland's homeless camps look like luxury hotels. >
  
  This is good. Last time I was in Van I got offered, very politely, two blowjobs over the course of a cigarette, outside a bar. This is going back 9 + years, but it was an eye opener >
  
  How much are tickets to Van? >
  
  Mind you we are talking about BJs from heavy use addicts with crack sores all over and missing teeth, not the sexy kind more of a you'll be grateful if you still have an uninfected intact dick at the end of it sorta BJ >
  
  Had a buddy that was a welder go out to BC to work on the docks years ago, pay was good, tons of work.
  Anyway, he ended up coming back because the amount of hookers and shit around the docks, he couldn't find a way home that avoided them etc. and said they eventually got to him too much.
  Always asking if he wanted a bedtime story and shit, some pretty wild stories. >
  
  I lived in Vancouver around 2017. That shit ain't normal. Every time i told someone how insane it is that there are homeless people just breaking into cars, burning bins, homeless people at every corner, drugs everywhere, all i got told is: "it's just a big city thing". No. It's fucking not. I don't know how the rest of the big cities in america look like but that was fucking insane.
  Don't get me started in Hastings street, i walked down the whole street because i didn't know the deal with it...
  THE MOST INSANE THING HOWEVER: All homeless people are mentally insane. I've never seen something like this. Screaming, being on drugs etc... They all need the hospital >
  
  I live just outside of Vancouver and every year it’s more and more homeless 
  I saw a jump in 2019 but I’m not sure if I just started the notice the crazy amount of homeless or if there was really a spike in homelessness >
  
  I don't know either, but rents just keeping going up faster than wages every year, wouldn't be surprised if there are more people going over the edge. >
  
  Yeah i was going to say they’re not even the first in the Pacific Northwest to try it lol >
  
  Vancouver used to be amazing. Now it's gross and full of open air junkies. These policies come at a great cost. >
  
  Yep. Public use of hard drugs should absolutely be illegal, but have the sentence be public funded rehab. 
  Giving people a free pass to shoot up in public is having predictably awful results. >
  
  The policy is good in theory but yeah there’s always a subset who don’t know how to get help or frankly don’t care and it has a counter productive results >
  
  I mean it seems like to obvious solution is just want the other person said. Arrest them and force them into treatment programs rather than prison. If they can’t find the resources, put the resources right in front of their nose. >
  
  The issue with addiction is that the person actually has to want to change. If you force someone into rehab, they can just refuse to cooperate and piss away their time there until they can get out. Plus rehab conditions are far better than jail/prison. This would simply result in offenders not being scared of getting caught anymore. It's not as easy as you think. >
  
  Then put them in half way houses away from the city, or send them to to jail.  
  Letting them shoot up drugs in public is literally the worst possible outcome for everyone. >
  
  Our society shouldn't just abandon these people. Throwing them in a halfway house will make it so so much harder for them to get clean even if they want to. And to be frank people don't deserve to have their lives taken from them and locked up in prison just because they have habits that society finds aesthetically distasteful. If we want to see the lives of our most downtrodden meaningfully improved we have to stop treating symptoms and start treating the actual disease, our broken economy and the massive wealth gap in the west that is rapidly getting larger. If we don't, poverty and drug use will just get worse. >
  
  It's isn't going well for Vancouver either >
  
  Oh god Kamloops is going to be even worse now. Glad I’m leaving this town this year . >
  
  The best point the article makes is that addressing drug addiction requires a significant investment in the entire social safety net for drug users, not merely decriminalization. >
  
  Couldn't they just look at Portland? Not a good move. Seems like it would make sense, but most adults can't adult. >
  
  they're effectively decriminalized in San Francisco and it is a complete shitshow now >
  
  
  Public health experts say the experiment faces long odds. Canada’s westernmost province has been ground zero for drug policy trials since 1959, when it opened the world’s first methadone clinic. Since then, it has tried several other so-called harm reduction programs, which espouse removing the criminal stigma from drug use to focus instead on users’ underlying social, economic and mental health issues.  
  Despite that, British Columbia remains plagued by rising levels of drug-related deaths and crimes. Overdose deaths last year were 41.7 per 100,000 people, or more than five-fold the rate in 1996, according to the province’s Coroner's Service. For comparison, overdose deaths in the US were 28.3 per 100,000 in 2020. The province spends billions of dollars annually on services and facilities for drug users as it attempts to cope with its public health emergency. >
  
  We tried this in Oregon and it isn't working >
  
  Soo.. you are going to make it easier for people to destroy their lives? Do dealers get to set up shop? I understand trying something new, but there’s no way this is a good idea. >
  
  Lol get your head out of your ass. People who want to destroy their own lives are going to do it regardless of the law. Is this policy perfect, no not really. Is this going to show notable results, no probably not but at least it gets the discussions going in the right direction other than the “drugs r bad” debate that’s been going on for decades >
  
  Downtown Vancouver isn't a pleasant place at any time of the day. >
  
  Very very bad idea. >
  
  Hamsterdam applauds >
  
  This is a necessary step in managing the decline of the West. Without the decriminalization of drugs and the provision of a safe supply, ANY destabilization/vacuum in governance will be filled with the 20% of the economy that's dark. 
  The only way to disarm dark money is to interfere with their revenue stream. They have no responsibilities, no real costs, and their leadership and membership is by natural selection through brutality and cunning. 
  As long as there's money to be made, we are building an enemy we have no tools to face in the event the army/police can no longer pay its foot soldiers. 
  It's not about the drugs or the users, it's about the money and where it ends up and what it's building. It's a question of national safety and global stability. >
  
  Well said. These addicts are preyed upon constantly, cornered into lives of crime, completely ostracized from the rest of society. Who are we if we can't help those in the most dire need. Bravo Vancouver and the rest of BC for at least trying, not  like in the MAGA provinces where contemplation is a dirty word. >
  
  They're trying, but is it actually helping? I just spent a year living in Vancouver and going downtown always shocked me. The junkie situation is genuinely terrible compared to other cities outside of North America, so much so that going to that part of the city wasn't really enjoyable. >
  
  Now we get to watch the rest of BC descend to shit like Vancouver did when they did their own little decriminalization bit.
  At least it'll settle the debate... definitely glad I don't live in BC though.  Maybe I'll be wrong... we'll see.
  I'm certainly not against no-questions-asked safe injection sites... those help the public by reducing things like discarded needles.  But your average junkie isn't going to a SIS unless they have to. >
  
  This needs to be on what could go wrong >
  
  Because everything that’s been done so far has been working so well? >
  
  Yeah, I dunno if Canada has an equivalent to the US’s “war on drugs” but here’s its been a massive failure by every objective measure. >
  
  The unfortunate reality is nothing really works.
  That's addiction. I smoke. 
  You start, you're fucked pretty much. Maybe the odd person out of hundreds or thousands gets better, but well, this is the actual reality. You start doing drugs etc. you're fucked. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.
  The only benefit to these kinda solutions, is saving on cops etc.
  Cops can't even police the roads anymore, cause they're all tied up in domestics, OD's etc. - There's no specific 'task force' to deal with any of that kinda shit, so they get it and that's why there's no cops anywhere anymore.
  That's about the only benefit here, or anywhere really that a decriminalization can bring, but only a little.
  They will still absolutely get tied up, most lost etc. to dealing with this kinda shit still. >
  
  I believe Portugal went a similar route and has seen many benefits.
  Certainly makes sense to allow folks to get the help they need and in the interim give them access to things like clean needles and healthcare, instead of incarcerating those caught with drugs or making addicts feel helpless when there are many organizations and folks willing to help.
  And just as important, it lets law enforcement concentrate on taking out the traffickers instead of somebody just looking to get high. >
  
  This is no where close to the Portugal model.  This takes all the feel good with none of the actual helping of their system.  In Portugal it is not illegal, but if you are committing crimes you are given an option of rehab or jail time.  If you do not do rehab, then proceed to jail.  Here that does not exist, it will still be turnstile justice of slapping hand cuffs on and 2 hours later your walking out of a detachment. >
  
  Yeah, the article does a pretty good job of explaining it. Essentially Portugal invested heavily in holistic support, not just decriminalization/legalization. In Vancouver (as in my hometown of Portland, OR), the rest of the equation is grossly neglected.
  As a progressive person myself (and by that I mean I'm "far left" by American standards), I'm pretty fucking annoyed that these progressive places have been so clueless about something that should've been obvious from the get-go: If you're gonna make a bold move like this, it has to come alongside massive investments in programs to support people. We have legendarily underdeveloped mental health services in my state, and while I truly love the ideas being put forth like legalization, I don't get why otherwise serious-minded public servants have so badly missed the boat on what needs to be done simultaneously in order to make the initiatives succeed. >
  
  
  holistic support, not just decriminalization/legalization. In Vancouver (as in my hometown of Portland, OR), the rest of the equation is grossly neglected.
  
  Agreed 100%. It seems like there are so many social issues in Canada that are half-assed like this. All it does is give conservatives (rightfully justified) ammo against these proven systems which other countries are already making strides with. This kind of thing is almost worst than doing nothing, it gets us the worst of both worlds, everyone is unhappy, outcomes are not improved (or get worse!) and then the system gets yanked out as a failure, setting the whole process back to square 0 with increased prejudice.
  Fucking stupid. >
  
  It's pure lip service imo, at least in the SF Bay Area where I live. Politicians propose these half-ass measures to get publicity and set themselves up for future political goals, knowing full well throwing money at an issue without any realistic oversight & accountability won't change a damn thing. >
  
  I understand how people might view this a empathy, but is is absolutely the opposite.  Check youtube for videos about the Kensington section of Philadelphia for some sad reality.