comment: >
  
  Homes that have swimming pools are 100x more likely to have someone drown than homes without. But if you put a 10 foot fence around the pool, what happens to those odds? If you only allow your children to swim under your supervision, what happens to the odds even further? If you discipline yourself to not drink alcohol while swimming, do you reduce the risk for accident even for people allowed?
  There is nothing different with firearms in the house. It's up to the owner to offset the inherit risk and probability of a firearm accident in a home in which a firearm exist. The need for self-defense can quickly be outweighed thru lazy, risk prone firearm ownership.
  The absolute BIGGEST mistake gun owners make, and I mean the biggest and most un-talked about poor decision - is fixating on a price.
  "I need a gun for self-defense"... and they associate a $400 budget to buy a handgun and box of ammo and look at problems solved. Forgetting things like: Storage safes, training ammunition, training classes. A lot of people who are scared and quickly getting into firearm ownership see a one stop solution in a firearm, when ownership is so much more and requires continual commitment to skill develop and safety. Shooting skills are perishable and a slip in safety is dangerous.
  New gun owners, often fearful ones, look at a firearm as immediate threat reducer without ever contemplating the increased probability to inflict injury/death to themselves thru accident. Same with pool owners. However, there is obviously a larger emotional response to gun ownership than pool ownership, and that's ok, guns and swimming aren't for everyone.
  So to CMV, you have to be convinced by your husband that he is mature enough, that you are financially able to take on this potential venture from day 1 correctly and that he is willing to commit continual time and learning to this and he's not trying to simply buy a "solution" to a problem that doesn't exist.
context: /u/kneazlekitten (OP) has awarded 5 delta(s) in this post.
  All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
  Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
  ^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards >
  
  I grew up with guns in the home, and yes, all of the dangers you listed could happen. But, if you raise your children well, the chances are very very low. 
  First, to the safe: no way is a child getting into a properly locked gun safe. Hell, most locksmiths have a hard time getting into them. Yes, they may be taken out to be cleaned, but I'm assuming your husband would be sitting there cleaning them, and then put them right back and lock them up when done. As for the try to impress friends thing, that is where the raising comes in. You make it clear to them, from a very young age that guns are not toys, and can kill you at any time. You also teach this while allowing them well supervised and age appropriate interaction time with them. Kids are curious, and you need to satisfy that curiosity in a safe manner so that it doesn't fester into something destructive. Father/child bonding time over guns can be very good for the overall relationship if it is handled properly. 
  One thing that I would suggest, that my father did, was to not allow any sort of toy guns in the house. No squirt guns, no nerf guns, no Lego guns, nothing. Not one toy that is gun shaped should be allowed. And, any type of gun play should be immediately discouraged and stopped. Important to note that this suuuuucked as a child when all your friends were playing with nerf darts, but goddamnit I KNEW not to even touch a toy gun at a very young age or I'd be in major trouble. Touching a real gun? Fuck otta here. >
  
  Hi, thanks for your input, especially as someone who grew up with guns at home. I like your point about discouraging toy guns at home - I recognize now that perhaps part of me being uncomfortable with the situation origins from playing with toy guns as a kid, and generally only seeing toy guns for most of my life, as real guns aren't something I or any of my friends/family ever got close to. So obviously the first thing my mind came to was - yeah the kids will try to find the key/number combinations to get inside the safe no matter what, coz it will be fun and something "cool". 
  But now I kinda realize how faulty this thinking is - they won't see guns like I/my friends did as kids if we raise them otherwise, explain it to them, teach them.
  So here you go !delta >
  
  There is no argument to change your view that is based on empirical data. Literally every single published study on the issue has found that guns in the home increases the risks of gun related injury/death for those living in the home. This really isn’t a parenting decision you should decided based on internet debate. There are published studies that are peer-reviewed and clear. Guns make your home less safe. Period. >
  
  I mean, that's largely because so many people who keep guns in the house don't treat them appropriately. Whenever you're doing population level statistics, you always have to include the fact that the population is filled with idiots.
  A gun in the house that can't be accessed because it's in a locked safe, in a house with kids that are raised understanding the risks of guns, is indistinguishable from a house without a gun. >
  
  
  A gun in the house that can't be accessed because it's in a locked safe, in a house with kids that are raised understanding the risks of guns, is indistinguishable from a house without a gun.
  
  This is wrong, because people make mistakes and kids are fucking stupid and make worse mistakes. It's not only possible, but actually happens all the time, for those mistakes to happen contemporaneously. This is impossible if there are no guns for it to happen with. >
  
  
  This is wrong, because people make mistakes.
  
  Some people make some types of mistakes. But that doesn't mean anyone in particular is going to make any specific mistake. It's extremely easy to keep firearms properly locked away with a 100% success rate.
  
  kids are fucking stupid and make worse mistakes. 
  
  Are you suggesting that a kid could mistakenly open a properly locked gun cabinet?
  
  It's not only possible, but actually happens all the time, for those mistakes to happen contemporaneously
  
  Yeah, it happens to idiots all the time, who aren't making mistakes, but rather make a habit of being negligent. There is a huge difference.
  
  This is impossible if there are no guns for it to happen with.
  
  Sure. But it's also not possible with a reasonable amount of care as a gun owner too. >
  
  
  Some people make some types of mistakes. But that doesn't mean anyone in particular is going to make any specific mistake. 
  
  "My murder toy is so fun that despite statistics I think it's worth keeping the toy that a single error can be fatal, and has no purpose other than ending life. I am also Rambo and defy all statistics that say this makes me less safe and more likely to die in situations where it may be nominally used in self defense." 
  
  It's extremely easy to keep firearms properly locked away with a 100% success rate.
  
  Tell that to all the dead kids of people who were responsible gun owners until that one pickup. >
  
  
  "My murder toy is so fun that despite statistics I think it's worth keeping the toy that a single error can be fatal, and has no purpose other than ending life. I am also Rambo and defy all statistics that say this makes me less safe and more likely to die in situations where it may be nominally used in self defense."
  
  You really, really, don't seem to understand statistics. Show me the statistics of accidents where the gun owners aren't habitually using poor gun practices.
  I work in industrial safety, and I have yet to see an accident where the person who was hurt wasn't already cutting corners (or someone around them wasn't). It's so understood, that the rule of thumb is that for every "near miss" that is reported (a dangerous situation that didn't actually wind up hurting anyone) there is assumed to have been 10 that weren't reported. "Mistakes" aren't really a thing. Habitual bad practices are.
  
  Tell that to all the dead kids of people who were responsible gun owners until that one pickup.
  
  This isn't a thing. It's not. You're imagining a scenario that doesn't exist. >
  
  
  
  Tell that to all the dead kids of people who were responsible gun owners until that one pickup.
  
  This isn't a thing. It's not. You're imagining a scenario that doesn't exist.
  
  Of course it's a thing. You're falling to the No True Scotsman fallacy, saying that definitionally any error makes someone an irresponsible gun owner. That's not how this works without your world beginning and ending in nothing but tautology. I may as well say that gun owners are only the ones who have accidents, and everyone else is merely a gun supplicant and definitionally not an owner. It's real easy to "win"  a debate when the victory condition is defined by your correctness. >
  
  That's not the argument I'm making at all. The argument goes like this:
  P1. Children getting shot by guns are never the result of a singular mistake, but rather the result of a habitual pattern of irresponsible gun practices.
  P2. Responsible gun owners don't make a habit of being irresponsible with guns.
  C. Children are not killed as a result of responsible gun owners.
  I think that's a pretty reasonable definition. But feel free to disagree with either P1 or P2.
  Edit: I think where you're getting stuck, is that you're confusing data useful in public policy, with data useful for individual decisions. At a population level, it's inevitable that some number of people are going to make a habit of poor decisions and habits around guns, and it's not something that is controllable by the state (presuming guns are in the house). However, the choices of the gun owner are in fact under the control of the individual gun owner, and it is in fact possible to accurately assess your own practices with regard to firearms. >
  
  While accidents certainly happen, I think a lot of people overestimate how easy it is to shoot a gun that's being properly maintained and secured. 
  As you said, if they're in the safe, and the kids don't know how to open the safe (which is very easy to make sure of), then they're completely harmless while they're in there. 
  On the occasion that they're taken out to clean or something, then they're not in any condition to be fired. The gun has to be fully assembled, intentionally loaded, and most likely "chambered" before it can fire. 
  I know people hate it when you compare guns to cars, but the concept is the same. There is absolutely the chance for something to go wrong if you're not being appropriately careful with this potentially deadly object, but if you ARE, then you greatly stack the odds in your favor. 
  And your husband has a point about exposing the kids in a safe way. In just the same way that "Don't ever have sex" is a horrible way to approach safe sex, "Don't ever be near a gun" is likewise ineffective. You won't always be able to control what your kids are exposed to, so the smart thing to do is to teach them to be responsible. >
  
  It's true that I won't always be able to control what they're exposed to. It's possible that they'll move to country with greater gun accessibility or find a friend whose parents have guns, however unlikely.. so yeah it's a god point that it would be more effective to expose them to it safely. 
  !delta >
  
  It also gives a feeling of responsibility and respect for your teachings when you teach kids about how to properly use something that can injure or kill them if they violate the rules.  It's necessary to be much more aware when doing certain things, like handling guns, babies, and cars. Learning to be responsible with guns is a great way to build confidence and respect. >
  
  One thing you're not mentioning is that a gun needs ammunition to be dangerous. Even if your husband doesn't always watch the gun while he's maintaining it, it's not dangerous as long as he keeps the ammunition in the safe. >
  
  You are actually right, I didn't take that into consideration at all. It's one more point to how safety could perhaps be preserved. !delta >
  
  My ammo is inside my wall safe. The only gun laying out is a 12 gauge, and it would be extremely hard for a child to load it and use it due to weight and size.
  My box of shells is accessible if you go through my room, but I have a lock for a reason >
  
  
  The only gun laying out is a 12 gauge, and it would be extremely hard for a child to load it and use it due to weight and size
  
  I wish that were the case for me.  My 9 year old is bigger than me and could probably handle the 12g wayyyy better than I did (with recoil) 🤣🤣 do you know how embarrassing that is to admit? >
  
  Compromise with your husband. Learning to respect a weapon, like your children have been taught to do with knives, is a crucial skill. Have your husband take them out to target shoot, let him teach them about guns so they don't appear as scary, or foreign to your children. But also understand that they won't pick this information up instantly, in the meanwhile your husband should be keeping them locked away in a safe, and properly keeping tabs on them at all times.
  This seems like a great chance for a learning opportunity, and it gives time for your kids and their father to bond. >
  
  You're right that even though there's much lesser chance of them encountering a gun than for instance in the US, it could possibly be beneficial for them to learn to respect a weapon and manipulate it safely. They'd also probably be less prone to trying to get to them out of pure curiosity. 
  !delta for that. >
  
  Your children will definitely encounter things that are dangerous, but probably not guns outside the house. Teaching the clear rules about gun safety and how to respect guns helps teach responsibility and common sense to your kids. They'll be able to handle other potentially dangerous things better if you teach them about guns. >
  
  Poor parents parent poorly.   
  Good parents teach their kids responsibility, respect, and safety.   
  Your kids won't be able to open a good gun safe unless you give them the combination. If you can't afford a good gun safe, you can't have guns.  That's a question about your finances that only you guys can answer.   
  As your kids grow, introduce them to guns. Teach them how dangerous they are if mishandled. Ensure that they know how to use a gun properly. How to be safe around a gun. How to respect a gun. Ensure that guns aren't a mystery item or something to be curious about. They're a dangerous tool to be respected and treated correctly.  Don't let them become objects of curiosity in any way.   
  I grew up in an area where every house had hunting rifles. Most of the time they were just on a gun rack unlocked. Every home around was the same. None of us kids ever touched a gun without permission. We weren't curious about guns because we saw them used regularly, and we got to shoot them frequently. But we also knew that touching a gun without permission was a one-way ticket to the worst punishment we'd ever receive.   
  Guns in the home are dangerous for parents who are either of bad parents or irresponsible. They are not inherently more dangerous than, say, a shop full of power tools or a shed with motorcycles in it. >
  
  It's a point made by more people here and really it's quite valid. Maybe if it's nothing mysterious to be curious about, they really won't go trying to get to the guns even if we forbid it (for example while we're not home). 
  My husband wanted to get a safe with a key. Though it was probably good quality (and quite expensive), I feel that a hidden key can be always found - but perhaps a number combination will be easier to keep from kids if we're being very careful while going in and out of the safe.
  !delta >
  
  Just so you know some of your options, there are safes that open with your finger print, as well as safes that connect to your wifi and will send an alert to your phone if the safe is accessed or tampered with. >
  
  
  My view is that while we can't comfortably live without a knife, we sure can without a gun.
  
  This kind of showcases that you accept whatever risk knife presence has compared to their utility. Guns (or any other item) are the same. Many people will put their knives in a drawer with a child lock on it so their kids do not get into it. Putting guns into a proper (good) safe is similar to that. Bonus points if you have a second safe with different key/combination to store ammunition (separately from the guns). >
  
  You absolutely should be a total helicopter mom and never let any chance of anything ever hurt your precious babies. YOur husband should stop doing anything remotely dangerous, and you should line your home with padded walls. That way you'll be safe.
  Have your food delivered to your home. You could get hurt going outside. And so on and so forth. In other words, grow up and stop being insane. >
  
  American here. I own about a dozen guns and have 3 kids. 
  Those guns are locked in gun safes, including a quick access one for self-defense.
  Teaching your kids responsibility and safety for a myriad of things is up to you.
  And even in the US, with more guns than people, the statistics for unintentional firearms deaths are incredibly small.
  As a parent I am more worried about falls, house hold chemicals, bodies of water, and automobile accidents. >
  
  I believe it is better to teach the children the importance of the safety of firearms and the dangers while having firearms in the house. Even teaching them how to properly use them should help improve that as well.
  Then, proper storage of the firearm.
  At least where I live, firearms are integral to our way of life and constitution. And... this was also how we managed to secure and maintain our independence.
  And a good reminder that one Japanese man once said (I think it was japanese) for every blade of grass, there will be a rifle behind it. Making it nearly impossible for another country to ever invade.
  So it is more than just safety >
  
  
  For instance I'm imagining teenage or slightly younger boys trying to impress their friends when we're not home
  
  A friend of mine here in Czech Republic needed to get a safe because he has more guns and law here requires to have it stored safely. He did thorough investigation on them and bought something that would protect guns even in case of a robbery. It's against the law to enable access to anyone else without a license to them. So even teenagers should be out of the question if you buy something from reputable brand. But then I've remembered how 
  LockPickingLawyer picks seemingly reputable brands and I'm less sure about that.
  
  Same way, he wouldn't even necessarily want to hide/lock the guns from kids, but rather show them from young age how to safely manipulate the gun.
  
  This is thin ice he's getting on. But he and his father are both alive. So my guess is he knows what's the deal. If you teach someone from young age to have respect to something it'll stick with them. Guns are serious business and anyone trying to handle them safely must know that. So I think it's good to teach your kids from young age.
  Also chances are kids will have no interest in guns. My father is a beekeeper and I have no interest in bees. So that might be your case as well. >
  
  I grew up with guns around the house. My dad works in law enforcement and hunts, so there were always guns around. I remember when i was older (maybe around 8+) they would sometimes be sitting on his desk or whatever (not loaded obviously). But it was never a problem because I was raised with them and taught to use them responsibly and safely. I also went hunting and that taught me that they do in fact have the power to kill things. 
  That's the problem with a lot of people, they don't understand them, they only fear them. A lot of freak accidents with guns that I've seen have involved people that weren't familiar with firearms. If we were more careful, responsible, and informed about them, there wouldn't be near as many accidents. 
  That's just my two cents. >
  
  First of all, how is a kid going to get into a safe ? 
  Second of all, let’s say a kid does get into the safe, maybe make your second line of defense to not have a round in the chamber. My 24 year old girlfriend struggles to rack the slide on a handgun. I doubt a small child is going to be able to. 
  Third, for curious teens they always do a lot of dumb shit. I think in that scenario you need to teach them proper gun safety and take them to the range and whatnot. It’s super dangerous to have a dumb curious teen in the house with guns if they have no idea about gun safety. 
  4th if you’re stillll worried then unload all the guns and put the ammo somewhere separate in a locked container and keep the key on your person. Or you could even do the same with the gun safe. One key on YOUR keychain and no one else. You could have one handgun or rifle you keep separately loaded as a home defense gun in a quick access safe. 
  But In all reality just keep the safe locked. Most of the good ones just have some sort of number combination. Don’t tell your kids the combination and it’s simple as that. >
  
  I grew up with firearms in the home from a young age, and here's what I would say:
  1) Your husband is probably right that teaching your kids firearm safety is crucial if you're going to have guns in the home.
  2) You absolutely should have the guns locked up at all times if you don't want your children to access them when you're not at home/watching them. 
  3) Your kids being responsible doesn't necessarily mean that their friends will be.
  4) A properly locked gun safe with a key or a code that the kids don't know is nearly impossible to get into without specialize equipment.
  On that last point: I was a very delinquent teenager -- drugs, petty crimes, a few run-ins with police, etc. At home, I was treated as you might expect... My parents would shut off the internet after midnight so I would have to go to bed. My dad would hide or lock up my video game system controllers so I couldn't play games when I was supposed to be doing homework. My parents installed a home security system both inside and out to keep track of who I was inviting over, and what I was getting up to.
  It was a constant battle of wills with my parents, and they had more will than most probably would. I learned everything I could about network access and computers to circumvent their wishes. I learned to pick locks, and break into safes, lockboxes, and rooms as a result. I also learned how to lie and hide things from my parents. The one thing I never learned how to do was break into my dad's gunsafe. 
  All this to be said, gun ownership or not wanting to own guns isn't really a rational argument either way. Both you and your husband need to work out together what's best for your family, and settle on a set of concessions and rules about how and where the guns will be store. When you'll introduce your children to firearms. How and when the guns will be used, etc. You certainly CAN have a safe environment with guns in the home. You also can have an unsafe environment, and that all comes down to your responsibility as gun owners and as parents. Best of luck! >
  
  Education is key. I live in an area where there are loads of guns everywhere but anyone having an accident is unheard of, much less children. People here are often taught exactly how guns work, how to fire them, and shown what kind of destruction they. This removes a child's curiosity for trying to figure out all that stuff on their own while you're not home and shows them to respect what firearms can do. Children shown how to hunt bear and deer have a full understanding of what firearms can do and what shooting one means. It's also pretty standard that children are educated to never ever touch guns without it being with an adult present, or specifically a parent. So kids know never to touch a firearms on their own, and they've lost all their curiosity since they have a full understanding of firearms.
  Plus it's really easy to just lock them up and put the ammo somewhere else. >
  
  Any responsible gun owner, which it sounds like he probably is if he is into sport shooting, will have their firearms stored securely, and unloaded, in a safe.
  Furthermore, their ammunition would probably be stored securely as well.
  People who sport shoot often have kids, and child safety is often talked about amongst these types of people.  As these sports are dangerous and require some degree of discipline children of these people are taught the fundamental safety rules from a very young age.
  Parents who own guns are often more strict about safe gun usage than you would imagine, often disallowing them to point toy guns at people, and other typical child things that normal parents wouldn't pay much mind to because, "they're just toys."
  To be honest, if I had a choice of who I'd rather trust with a loaded gun, between an 8 year old child whose parents are into sport shooting and instilled
  gun safety since childhood, or some random adult, it is 10/10 for the kid.
  Children who typically have accidents with guns are those whose parents are not responsible gun owners, whose parents have illegal guns, and are involved in other types of negligence.
  Your husband isn't going to be swayed by your sense of fear due to your limited knowledge of guns, because he likely already knows what gun safety is all about, so why not show him your concerned by also educating yourself in gun safety?  Maybe there are some things he can do to improve gun safety, because if their dad is into sport shooting, the kids are definitely 100% going to be exposed to it, one way, or another.
  The biggest risk to getting hurt for kids who family guns is the family are going to be when they're using them otherwise safely.  Make sure when he is going to introduce the kids to shooting, that he has an appropriately sized gun for kids, which they do make.  Make sure he has child-sized safety glasses, and make sure they have child-sized hearing protection.  They make story books for kids to teach gun safety, as insane as that might seem, it is important lesson for them.
  Most importantly, you need to stop shying away from guns and teach yourself gun safety, which will mean getting involved in his sport to some degree.  My wife was not into guns at all, but I had my stuff locked up and safe.  As soon as we had kids, she knew I knew the risks of having kids and guns.  Not long ago, I asked her to get her gun license, which required her to do all the mandatory training.  Now she is armed with the knowledge to keep her and the kids safe from accidents. >
  
  Hey born and raised Texan here, your husband is absolutely right. While there are dangers I was thought from the age of 6 how to correctly use a gun, when I was and wasn't allowed to use one, not to look down the barrel if there's a misfire, not ever point it at someone else even if it's not loaded, to always treat it like it is loaded, and more importantly they are not toys you can screw around with without consequences. I never broke the rules because I knew what could happen if I did, and a good gun safe will not open easily. What I would suggest is go all out on a very solid gun case, get good highly rated chamber locks(it goes into where the magazine goes and goes out of the little space that a shell ejects out of and locks to stop it from even putting in the magazine), keep the ammo and and other stuff separately. And teach them with extreme caution and supervision. >
  
  The only people who have accidental gun deaths in their house are the people who don’t respect the weapon enough to hide it, lock it, unload it and the people that don’t teach their kids to respect the weapon.
  As someone else pointed out, kids stabbing each other pretending they have swords is not a concern because you teach them from early on that knives are potentially dangerous and that they may not touch them/play with them. 
  It’s the same for guns, the kids that are taught to respect them, don’t play with them >
  
  I do not live in Europe, I live in the USA.
  My dad raised me with guns. When I was a small child I would go to the range and out hunting with him (as in just follow him around, I didn't have a gun). After a while of this (and seeing how much respect he gave the guns) and years of having safety drilled into my head he let me hold a gun that was unloaded. He immediately showed me how to verify it was unloaded and to make sure every gun I ever pick up is unloaded every time I pick it up and how to hold it safely.
  After a year of this and seeing that I was always responsible he took me to a shooting range and let me fire the gun. He loaded a single shot, safely on, and walked me through using that.
  Multiple of these trips and seeing that I'm constantly extremely careful about the gun and I can have several shots in it.
  Next he takes me to a hunter safety class and I get certified
  Next we go hunting together at about age 12. He gives me my ammo and I give it back to him at the end of the day and we stay together the entire time.
  Finally, in my late teens after hunting with him for several years I am allowed to hunt "alone". He is still nearby, just not right next to me. He will walk me to a tree stand or something.
  In rural areas I know the above schedule can be compressed because they simply have more hours of training per year with guns. The point is that we trained a LOT in order to be safe with the guns.
  If this is what your husband will do then great it should be perfectly safe. If he instead is not going put the time and work into teaching your kid to be safe around guns then there will be a lot more risk.
  If I had been stupid and wanted to show off a gun to my friends, I would have been verifying that it was unloaded when I picked it up and each time I handed it to someone else and I would have still been paranoid about it. Finally I would have walked people through how to be safe with the gun and if anyone tried to point it in an unsafe direction I would have demanded it back and got an adult if they wouldn't give it back (and it wouldn't have had ammo in it either). The safety mindset was DRILLED into me hard. >
  
  My argument isn’t about guns at all per se, but about “unnecessary danger” in general. 
  Leaving the house to attend school is an unnecessary danger nowadays, thanks to technology. Riding a bike is unnecessary danger. Playing sports is unnecessary danger, compared to exercising in a home gym. Eating unfamiliar food is unnecessary danger. Meeting strangers is unnecessary danger. 
  To the extent that becoming a complete person with a fulfilling, enjoyable life is “necessary”, risk is necessary. We can’t rule things out based solely on the existence of some tiny amount of risk totally disproportionate to the reward we derive from it. We have to accept some amount of “unnecessary” danger in our lives or we’d never bother living.