comment: >
  
  You are actually right, I didn't take that into consideration at all. It's one more point to how safety could perhaps be preserved. !delta
context: /u/kneazlekitten (OP) has awarded 5 delta(s) in this post.
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  Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
  ^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards >
  
  I grew up with guns in the home, and yes, all of the dangers you listed could happen. But, if you raise your children well, the chances are very very low. 
  First, to the safe: no way is a child getting into a properly locked gun safe. Hell, most locksmiths have a hard time getting into them. Yes, they may be taken out to be cleaned, but I'm assuming your husband would be sitting there cleaning them, and then put them right back and lock them up when done. As for the try to impress friends thing, that is where the raising comes in. You make it clear to them, from a very young age that guns are not toys, and can kill you at any time. You also teach this while allowing them well supervised and age appropriate interaction time with them. Kids are curious, and you need to satisfy that curiosity in a safe manner so that it doesn't fester into something destructive. Father/child bonding time over guns can be very good for the overall relationship if it is handled properly. 
  One thing that I would suggest, that my father did, was to not allow any sort of toy guns in the house. No squirt guns, no nerf guns, no Lego guns, nothing. Not one toy that is gun shaped should be allowed. And, any type of gun play should be immediately discouraged and stopped. Important to note that this suuuuucked as a child when all your friends were playing with nerf darts, but goddamnit I KNEW not to even touch a toy gun at a very young age or I'd be in major trouble. Touching a real gun? Fuck otta here. >
  
  Hi, thanks for your input, especially as someone who grew up with guns at home. I like your point about discouraging toy guns at home - I recognize now that perhaps part of me being uncomfortable with the situation origins from playing with toy guns as a kid, and generally only seeing toy guns for most of my life, as real guns aren't something I or any of my friends/family ever got close to. So obviously the first thing my mind came to was - yeah the kids will try to find the key/number combinations to get inside the safe no matter what, coz it will be fun and something "cool". 
  But now I kinda realize how faulty this thinking is - they won't see guns like I/my friends did as kids if we raise them otherwise, explain it to them, teach them.
  So here you go !delta >
  
  There is no argument to change your view that is based on empirical data. Literally every single published study on the issue has found that guns in the home increases the risks of gun related injury/death for those living in the home. This really isn’t a parenting decision you should decided based on internet debate. There are published studies that are peer-reviewed and clear. Guns make your home less safe. Period. >
  
  I mean, that's largely because so many people who keep guns in the house don't treat them appropriately. Whenever you're doing population level statistics, you always have to include the fact that the population is filled with idiots.
  A gun in the house that can't be accessed because it's in a locked safe, in a house with kids that are raised understanding the risks of guns, is indistinguishable from a house without a gun. >
  
  
  A gun in the house that can't be accessed because it's in a locked safe, in a house with kids that are raised understanding the risks of guns, is indistinguishable from a house without a gun.
  
  This is wrong, because people make mistakes and kids are fucking stupid and make worse mistakes. It's not only possible, but actually happens all the time, for those mistakes to happen contemporaneously. This is impossible if there are no guns for it to happen with. >
  
  
  This is wrong, because people make mistakes.
  
  Some people make some types of mistakes. But that doesn't mean anyone in particular is going to make any specific mistake. It's extremely easy to keep firearms properly locked away with a 100% success rate.
  
  kids are fucking stupid and make worse mistakes. 
  
  Are you suggesting that a kid could mistakenly open a properly locked gun cabinet?
  
  It's not only possible, but actually happens all the time, for those mistakes to happen contemporaneously
  
  Yeah, it happens to idiots all the time, who aren't making mistakes, but rather make a habit of being negligent. There is a huge difference.
  
  This is impossible if there are no guns for it to happen with.
  
  Sure. But it's also not possible with a reasonable amount of care as a gun owner too. >
  
  
  Some people make some types of mistakes. But that doesn't mean anyone in particular is going to make any specific mistake. 
  
  "My murder toy is so fun that despite statistics I think it's worth keeping the toy that a single error can be fatal, and has no purpose other than ending life. I am also Rambo and defy all statistics that say this makes me less safe and more likely to die in situations where it may be nominally used in self defense." 
  
  It's extremely easy to keep firearms properly locked away with a 100% success rate.
  
  Tell that to all the dead kids of people who were responsible gun owners until that one pickup. >
  
  
  "My murder toy is so fun that despite statistics I think it's worth keeping the toy that a single error can be fatal, and has no purpose other than ending life. I am also Rambo and defy all statistics that say this makes me less safe and more likely to die in situations where it may be nominally used in self defense."
  
  You really, really, don't seem to understand statistics. Show me the statistics of accidents where the gun owners aren't habitually using poor gun practices.
  I work in industrial safety, and I have yet to see an accident where the person who was hurt wasn't already cutting corners (or someone around them wasn't). It's so understood, that the rule of thumb is that for every "near miss" that is reported (a dangerous situation that didn't actually wind up hurting anyone) there is assumed to have been 10 that weren't reported. "Mistakes" aren't really a thing. Habitual bad practices are.
  
  Tell that to all the dead kids of people who were responsible gun owners until that one pickup.
  
  This isn't a thing. It's not. You're imagining a scenario that doesn't exist. >
  
  
  
  Tell that to all the dead kids of people who were responsible gun owners until that one pickup.
  
  This isn't a thing. It's not. You're imagining a scenario that doesn't exist.
  
  Of course it's a thing. You're falling to the No True Scotsman fallacy, saying that definitionally any error makes someone an irresponsible gun owner. That's not how this works without your world beginning and ending in nothing but tautology. I may as well say that gun owners are only the ones who have accidents, and everyone else is merely a gun supplicant and definitionally not an owner. It's real easy to "win"  a debate when the victory condition is defined by your correctness. >
  
  That's not the argument I'm making at all. The argument goes like this:
  P1. Children getting shot by guns are never the result of a singular mistake, but rather the result of a habitual pattern of irresponsible gun practices.
  P2. Responsible gun owners don't make a habit of being irresponsible with guns.
  C. Children are not killed as a result of responsible gun owners.
  I think that's a pretty reasonable definition. But feel free to disagree with either P1 or P2.
  Edit: I think where you're getting stuck, is that you're confusing data useful in public policy, with data useful for individual decisions. At a population level, it's inevitable that some number of people are going to make a habit of poor decisions and habits around guns, and it's not something that is controllable by the state (presuming guns are in the house). However, the choices of the gun owner are in fact under the control of the individual gun owner, and it is in fact possible to accurately assess your own practices with regard to firearms. >
  
  While accidents certainly happen, I think a lot of people overestimate how easy it is to shoot a gun that's being properly maintained and secured. 
  As you said, if they're in the safe, and the kids don't know how to open the safe (which is very easy to make sure of), then they're completely harmless while they're in there. 
  On the occasion that they're taken out to clean or something, then they're not in any condition to be fired. The gun has to be fully assembled, intentionally loaded, and most likely "chambered" before it can fire. 
  I know people hate it when you compare guns to cars, but the concept is the same. There is absolutely the chance for something to go wrong if you're not being appropriately careful with this potentially deadly object, but if you ARE, then you greatly stack the odds in your favor. 
  And your husband has a point about exposing the kids in a safe way. In just the same way that "Don't ever have sex" is a horrible way to approach safe sex, "Don't ever be near a gun" is likewise ineffective. You won't always be able to control what your kids are exposed to, so the smart thing to do is to teach them to be responsible. >
  
  It's true that I won't always be able to control what they're exposed to. It's possible that they'll move to country with greater gun accessibility or find a friend whose parents have guns, however unlikely.. so yeah it's a god point that it would be more effective to expose them to it safely. 
  !delta >
  
  It also gives a feeling of responsibility and respect for your teachings when you teach kids about how to properly use something that can injure or kill them if they violate the rules.  It's necessary to be much more aware when doing certain things, like handling guns, babies, and cars. Learning to be responsible with guns is a great way to build confidence and respect. >
  
  One thing you're not mentioning is that a gun needs ammunition to be dangerous. Even if your husband doesn't always watch the gun while he's maintaining it, it's not dangerous as long as he keeps the ammunition in the safe.