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What do cows eat in winter when they are not on the pastures?
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This is well known to vegans. The definition of veganism is to reduce animal suffering as much as possible and practicable. It's not possible to reduce it to 0. >

But the suffering makes it taste so much better >

it actually does not. If animals feel fear before being slaughtered their meet doesn't taste as good anymore. >

That’s because a long time ago there was a mutated gene that allowed us to taste the chemicals released by fear, it helped give our brain the necessary positive chemicals to survive and thrive. It’s thought that most vegans/vegetarians don’t have this mutation. >

It's thought by whom lmao >

I now realize that my real life humor of just bullshitting somewhat realistic sounding, but really stupid ideas won’t work on Reddit. >

A vegetarian or vegan diet consumes way less plants and uses less cropland than a meat diet, because it takes a huge amount of plants to feed the animals that we eat. It takes something like 10 lbs of plants to get a pound of meat. >

But sustainably farmed beef for example can be grass fed (which humans can't eat) on land that is unsuitable for food crop farming. So is this OK? >

And harvesting hay from meadows somehow does not involve crop deaths? >

Exactly. These people live in a dream world. >

“These people” >

Yep. The people who try to come up with arguments against veganism. >

Like any idealogical battle there is hate on both sides, there is also a group of people that says, fuck everything, do what you want to do, and try to be the best person you can be >


Like any idealogical battle there is hate on both sides

The difference being that one side here is unnecessary killing.

and try to be the best person you can be

If you're going to do that, you'd be vegan >

Yeah there it is lol
“I’m right and everyone else who doesn’t do what I think is wrong”
If you ever find yourself in that position you gotta check yourself >

Explain how "being the best person you can be" involves unnecessarily killing animals.

“I’m right and everyone else who doesn’t do what I think is wrong”
If you ever find yourself in that position you gotta check yourself

Do you think rape is wrong? Do you think murder is wrong? If the answer is "yes", do you gotta check yourself? >

If you’re worried about shrews and rabbits then we grow a lot more food to feed the 58 billion animals every year. 
The point of veganism is to reduce harm as much as possible 
If we can feed 58 billion animals then I think we can feed 8 billion people. We can save more shrews and rabbits like you said. >


reduce harm as much as possible

So like keeping backyard chickens and meat rabbits that you feed food scraps and things you grow in your backyard vegetable garden? Then you produce eggs and meat with no mono-cropping or insecticides. >

And you are fully self sustainable like this? Do you think this lifestyle is realistic for the vast majority of people? >

I thought this was about reducing the most harm, as completely eliminating it is obviously impossible. You could still supplement with beans and other vegetable proteins. Why does it need to be black and white? 
Sounds like he is recycling his waste rather efficiently. Chicken crap is a good fertiliser for the garden and they keep away pests so you don't have to use pesticides. 
If the chicken happens to lay an egg, why not eat it? >


I thought this was about reducing the most harm, as completely eliminating it is obviously impossible. 

Killing sentient beings for an unnecessary reason is harmful.

If the chicken happens to lay an egg, why not eat it?

Because we've bred chickens to lay far more eggs than are healthy for them. They very often suffer fractures, as its nearly impossible to replenish their calcium. Also, ask these kind people who own hens what happens to them when the eggs slow down. >

I never said kill the chicken, I said eat the eggs. Not all people kill their chickens if they stop laying. In industrial contexts, yes. But most people I know who keep a few chickens, do so as pets and pest control, if they stop laying so be it. As long as the chickens keep the slugs from the lettuce they are happy.
The chickens kept like that also don't lay eggs everyday like in a battery, anyway. Imagine having five chickens, laying five eggs everyday, you wouldn't keep up with eating all of them. 35 eggs a week? Who eats that? 
At a slow rate it is entirely possible for the chickens to live a happy life. Calcium can be supplemented in their diet too. 
I really think you would be surprised to how many different breeds of chickens there are kept by hobbyists, or even just people with gardens who have a few chickens running around, and how much difference there is between breeds. Not all chickens are bred to lay eggs until their body collapses.
I think you are looking hard at all the worst things, without looking at the good things that are possible too. It is entirely possible to keep chickens in an ethical way in your garden and eat one of their egg once in a while. You just can't be greedy and have to take care of them, and not buy the chicken equivalent of a pug. >

And it takes 16kg of crops to produce 1kg of meat.
Vegans accept that perfection is impossible. But unavoidable deaths aren't a moral justification to go out and cause unnecessary deaths. >

my moral justification is I am hungry and want to go chow some chicken chunks >

So you are arguing because you want to do it it is morally correct? >

The majority of crops grown are used to feed animals which non-vegans then eat. >

And? >

So that’s how they reduce the hard inflicted >

The hard inflicted as in priapism >

And now think of all the crops farm animals eat. 
But this is very overblown, you don’t think rabbits etc run away from tractors??? But not surprising selfish humans come up with creative ways to justify their shitty habits. >

Bingo. Anti vegans hang their hat on one study that counted rabbits in a field, then assumed they were all dead after harvesting.
This ignored the fact that the populations of mammals in neighbouring fields increased just after harvest. How strange >

This is a dumb argument people use as a "gotcha" to vegans/vegetarians, or at best a "I'm 14 and this is deep".  Life and death are a circle, if you are alive, it is because you have taken life.  Life is impossible without eating other things that are/were alive. >

More crops are used to feed animals for the meat/dairy industry than are used to feed actual people. So the vegan diet is still the more ethical choice - not only with respect to reducing animal death, but also making the most of our limited natural resource (e.g. fertile land, water) >

Show me a way to sustain onesself that doesn't involve animal death (as in addition to the obvious threat you'd be construed as making if you said there's no way, eating nothing for ethical reasons leads to animal death because humans are animals) >

Cannibalism >

How can you post this if the post ended with human death in mind already? >

Just eat the feet. People can live without feet. We already eat pig knuckles, so long pork knuckles would be just as gross but still food. And people can't drive without feet, so you'll also be helping.environment. >

they can't walk either, instead they have to use jetpacks which are very inefficient >

Work from home, order human feet from the grocery store, and do Zoom conferences. No need for jetpacks. >

Store bought? Blech >

Hey, it is a time saver, Martha Stewart. >

That's still vastly different than contributing to factory farming where theres a direct link and animals are being bred for the sole purpose of dying young so somebody can consume them. Everything in this planet is interconnected, that's how ecosystems work. Pullin at straws. >

It's about doing the best they can that involves the least amount of cruelty, not about being perfect. Nobody's perfect. >

I eat vegan because it’s much much healthier than an animal based diet. I’d kill a cow with a fucking hammer if I was hungry enough. Why waste your time thinking about these things? >

Every health and dietetic association on earth agrees that we can thrive perfectly well on a vegan diet >

meat is more efficient than plants however, meat is easier to digest so your body absorbs the energy faster. >

Isn't it the opposite? As in meat being harder to digest? That's how I remember it. >

A lot of people who think that forget they are comparing cooked and prepared meat with a vegetable.
If we remember that meat comes from an animal, then any vegetable is easier to eat than a live cow, no matter what you have to do to the vegetable. It's also easier to grow a years worth of food in a field than it is to raise a cow (who will need all that years worth of food, then the same again 3 or 4 times). >

I live on a small sustainable hobby farm. I grow everything myself and try to keep everything as natural and balanced as possible. My cattle are the easiest thing on the farm. Literally take no work whatsoever other than making sure they have water. My garden however is a constant battle. It is far far easier to grow a years worth of beef than it is to grow a years worth of vegetables.  And anyone who tells you otherwise has never done both. >

That's really cool! How much land do you use to grow your cows food? I admit, I wasn't thinking of cows which can just live off land without any suppliments, birthing assistance, medication, protection, etc. as that's only a tiny proportion of meat consumed. People like you are awesome, but also a tiny, tiny minority (although I admit I think most people like to think they are only a small step away from your lifestyle!)
I only have a little experience with cattle farms and sheep farms, and in my experience - growing a field of pretty much any human veg is a lot less effort than growing 2-4 fields of animal feed, or letting the livestock roam over the area large enough to grass feed (where they still need to be fed supplements, and to be moved around different fields). And that's before you get into all the lambing, etc.
Plants, you get them in the ground, you make sure they're watered and fertilised, you harvest. Grains usually take additional processing, sure.
Livestock, you have to do that same process as plants, except you grow more food. Plus looking after the animals health and wellbeing.
But my main point was that vegetables are easier to eat than meat.
With most vegetables, it's harvest, rinse, chop up, cook (roast, boil, etc.) They'll last a few days to weeks depending on type and temperature.
With most meat, it's
- Slaughter animal (not a small and easy job, I'm sure you'll agree!)
- Prepare the meat, skinning, gutting, portioning, etc. Varies by animal, but not quick and easy
- Unless you are eating the meat immediately, you need to prepare it for preservation. It then usually needs to be kept in a climate controlled environment, depending where you are in the world, or your preservation technique.
Sure, flour has a whole extra process to produce, and a chicken is easier to prepare than a cow. There's variations. But in my experience getting almost any vegetable to plate is exponentially less resources than getting the same amount of macros and nutrients to plate via a mammal (and most animals) >

I have 2 cows per 5 acres and I do not need to prepare the ground or rotate crops or plant anything for them. They eat the Bermuda grass as it grows and towards the end of the summer I Might bale some hay out of the Bermuda grass to feed them in the winter but it's not completely needed. I live in Oklahoma so we don't get harsh winters. For most years all I have to do for the cattle is make sure they have water and then butcher one a year for the beef and sell off the rest of the calves for income. On the odd year that I do need to bale hay for them it's just 1 weekend of work and then moving bales around with my truck to feed them in the winter. 
Growing the vegetables and garden is a pain the ass. I have 1 full acre that I dedicate to garden crops as well as many raised garden beds around my house and a greenhouse that is 30' x 15' 
The garden is not just plant it and forget it. It takes constant monitoring,  fighting with wildlife to keep them from eating it, watering, pruning, weeding, working the soil, spreading mulch, fertilizer, potting, repotting, planting in the ground, putting up bird netting every year. And much more that I can't think of off the top of my head. Plus I end up losing half the crop to shit like grasshoppers.  The chickens help keep the grasshoppers down but then I'm worried about the chickens scratching up the plants. It's a never ending cycle lol
I think the big point your missing is that I'm not growing food for the cattle. Someone planted Bermuda grass once many years ago and now I own the farm and it just grows naturally at the point and the cows eat it as it grows. If I want to bale some hay then I just keep the cows off it for long enough for it to grow and the bale it. >

And you're missing (or deliberately ignoring) my point that most cows are not nearly as low maintenance as yours, nor love in an area where they can just be left in a field for 18+ months with no supplements or intervention. That's a really lucky set up. If all cows could live like that, we wouldn't need to keep chopping down the Amazon. 
And you're also not acknowledging my main point that, given grown veg, or a cow, it's a lot more effort to get a meal out of a living cow than it is pretty much any vegetable. >

Indeed a fact. Moving away from a animal based diet will free up the massive number of acres used to house the animals and grow their feed. You could expect gain in farmland freed from production. >

This isn't a well-reasoned argument. Something more compelling is that a lot of conventional farms are harmful to ecosystems and pollinators, so even if you're eating vegan, it doesn't mean you're being super environmentally conscious, per se.
Also, the treatment of farmworkers is frequently very bad, just in terms of their pay and working conditions.
Also, if you're vegan, it may be that you eat a lot of stuff that's processed or packaged in plastic, or you probably use a lot of plastic instead of materials made from animal skin (like leather).
But there are still compelling reasons to go vegan; it's just that there are lots of different kinds of vegans. Also, the systemic issues in farming go deeper than animal exploitation. Also, animals arguably play an important role in diversifying farming systems. >

That’s one of the dumbest statements I heard for a while and I’m not even vegetarian. I‘m just here to judge. There are a lot of explaining comments. >

I think the goal in this imperfect system is to minimize animal death, and be as environmentally responsible as possible. It’s unrealistic and scientifically impossible for any living species to exist without doing harm to another living thing. Energy generation requires consumption of something that provide energy and as of right now, other living things is the only reasonable way to get that. Whether it’s from animal or plant products, animals will always be affected. >

And, like, a LOT of low wage human suffering goes into harvesting our crops. >

Because working in a slaughterhouse/meat processing plant is a barrel of laughs? >

Sometimes, yeah.  I remember one time Gary scarred the bejezus out of Tiffany in accounting when he jumped out from behind a cabinet while wearing a pig's face!  ha!  good times. >

this feels like a conservative gotcha moment that airs on fox >

How the actual fuck you get politics out of someone’s random statement about a particular diet??!? You’re just as bad, if not worse than what you just described. >

Vegans know this. 
They also know that a vegan diet requires far less plants than one involving meat (what to you think we feed animals? ), so overall it results in killing fewer plants and animals.
And this isn't really a shower thought, it's just a dumb talking point for people who like to bash vegans or feel a need to defend /justify their dietary choices.. >

Not necessarily -it only requires seeds.  Some crops can be grown organically too.  I am not vegan but I am vegetarian.  I do eat dairy.  I do not drink milk but I do eat eggs (about 1x per month) and I eat foods with egg as an ingredient.  I cannot bear the thought of causing pain to any living creature and definitely cannot consume one.  I was born this way I think. I could not eat meat even as a very young child. >

Organic crops still require pesticides, you just get lower crop yields. >

You are correct but the pesticides used on organic crops are natural rather than synthetic.  -and definitely should not involve animal death. At least I don't think it does.  I do not eat a perfectly animal free diet -I am vegetarian not vegan -but I have saved a lot of animals and try my best. >

The 'organic' label is a joke, and one made up for people to make money off of. The approved list of organic pesticides to mark your product as such, still contain synthetic chemicals. As for the actually natural pesticides used, some will still kill a human let alone just about everything else it comes in contact with it. There are a few organic farms that actually do try to use the most environmentally friendly chemicals and sustainable methods possible. My hats off to them. However it certainly isn't the majority by a long shot, most just found a clever and legal way to make an extra buck off consumers for literally the same product. This excludes heirlooms, but then again I would not even be the tiniest bit surprised that the label 'heirloom' contains it's own deceits. >

A LOT of peas: about 400 tonnes a season. And to protect the which end up as a frozen product, they have some wildlife fences, but also have to shoot a LOT of animals. When I was there, they had a licence to kill about 150 deer. They routinely kill about 800-1000 possums and 500 wallabies every year, along with a few ducks. (As a side note, and in my mind to its credit, Collydean only invites hunters onto its farm who will use the animals they kill - for human food, or for pet food - and not leave them in the paddock, as most animals killed for crop protection are. seeing the animals go to waste.) peas,
So, over 1500 animals die each year to grow about 75 hectares of peas for our freezers. That's not 1500 rodents, which also die, and which some may see as collateral damage in the big picture. That's mostly warm-blooded animals of the cute kind, with a few birds thrown in.
Another orchardist I know killed 120 possums one spring, an average of one a day, to protect his crop. If we eat apples, or drink apple juice or cider, then we have blood on our hands.
Looking further afield, the number of animals that die to produce vegan food is astonishing. Consider wheat, a common crop in Australia, and you'll also find a bunch of animals dying. And this time, let's look at the nutrient density of the food in question, because not all foods are created equal. According to an article by Mike Archer, Professor in the Faculty of Science at the University of New South Wales, roughly 25 times more sentient beings die to produce a kilo of protein from wheat than a kilo of protein from beef. Thanks to monocultures, and mice plagues, and our modern farming systems, a hell of a lot of small animals die to produce wheat. Yes, most of them are rodents, but a life is a life- and surely in the vegan world, all warm-blooded life should be honoured equally? >

Animals also eat crops tho. The amount of a crop needed for 1 kg of beef or chicken is way more than if you just ate 1 kg of the crop >

Unless they're simply on irrigated pasture. In which case you need 0 crop.