>

Erdogan is probably the reason why Putin publicly said he doesn't mind Findland and Sweeden joining NATO.
They weren’t supporting Sweden getting into NATO from the start nothing changed lol >

And if they were interested in supporting that, giving Sweden a bunch of demands that would inevitably worsen public opinion of Turkey was a pretty stupid way to go about it. >

It's all just posturing for the elections. Sweden got played, Erdogan got exactly what he wanted. The Swedish government just turned the Turkish election in Erdogan’s favour. He was trailing behind, but this could give him the necessary boost. >

The problem with the Turkish election is that every one with Turkish background can vote. So he gets a lot of votes from the millions of Turks outside of turkey. They almost all vote for him when they have no clue what is going on in Turkey >

There are about 15 million Turks living in Europe, the vast majority are very pro erdogan and they are not shy about it starting riots on his behalf. They know it, Erdogan knows it, European leaders know it. >

They sound like fucking idiots. >

The Turkish Trumpette section of the band. >

Why are the folks in Europe so much more pro-Erdogan than Turkish people in Turkey?  Why are would the ones that left like him more than those who stayed?  Genuinely curious. >

Because they get to cheer the "Turkey stronk!!!" stuff without having to live under his rule I suspect. >

The point is that this is what Turkey has wanted all along: Some justification to say "no". They've been fishing for this through this whole process. >

Except that definitively saying "no" has no tangible benefit to Turkey apart from some internal political posturing for the upcoming elections. So we can honestly expect it to be short lived, then they'll be ready to negotiate again. >

Internal political posturing is the actual thing Erdogan wants and needs as he heads into election season.
The sooner you stop visualizing states as perfectly coherent unitary actors rationally and doggedly perusing a 'national interest' and more that a state's foreign policy is a meritage, a sum of its domestic political actors' concerns, the sooner it will make sense. >

This is so true across the board. So many times I see statements form russian officials that people just say "nobody believes you" or "who is this for" or "try staying consistent." They should all be asking if that statement was made more for them, the foreign audience, or for the russian people. There is high russian support for the invasion of ukraine and that means that any public statement the russian government makes about it, to anyone, has to meet an expectation of those supporters based on what lines russia has sold them. It's obvious to us in this case because we can see the disconnect between reality and what they say, but literally every single nation does this. >

I’m honestly shocked more people don’t realize this. Literally one of the first things they teach you in any history class is that when you’re examining a source, always think about who its for. Once you know/can infer the audience, it’s a lot easier to understand the intentions behind it. >

I took a class on International Political Economy in college, and the core lesson of the class was to identify groups within a polity, and understand what they want, and understand which groups those in control of a state's decision-making need to appeal to. It's basically the same sort of analysis, only applied to the present. >

If he wants western countries to suppress dissent, that's not how it works. They can do that in front of a church as well, or in front of parliament. We don't get to be tinpot dictators about that stuff. Someone will find yet another lever to lean on here with Erdogan. >

At this point, I suspect Article 5 is basically in effect for Sweden etc, just not officially >

Sweden and Finland have received security assurances from NATO. I have to imagine that any potential aggression would be warned against with very direct language to Russian diplomats. >

They're both in the EU anyway, which has a mutual defense agreement last time I checked. Russia attacking either is game over for Russia, if only because it would finally let the Poles off the leash to curbstomp the Russians into oblivion. >

IIRC EU doesn't actually have anything like NATO article 5, the defense agreement is like the aid we give Ukraine rn meaning material aid no boots on the ground. If not we wouldn't need to join NATO.
We did however sign a defence pact with at least the UK I believe, maybe more countries. >

According to the legal faculty of Stockholm University which made an assessment about the potential application to Nato on behalf of the Swedish government before the application was made, the difference from a legal perspective to the EU defense clause and the Nato treaty is very marginal, more or less a different formulation of a similar thing. The primary difference is not in the legal text. >

So reading into this, the Turks are mad because people in Sweden are allowed to freely protest, and these particular protests were ones Turkey didn't agree with. 
It wasn't something the Swedish government did, but people just doing things they're allowed to do in a free country. >

You are reading this correctly, yes. The President of Turkey is mad at the Swedish government for something a few individuals did, who have no affiliations with the Swedish government at all. Yes. So a government is acting against another based on no action of that other government, yes.
And also Finland, for some reason. Finland is just bad generally, no reason really. >

How is this the first time I am hearing about this?  And that happened under Trump!  Conservatives were seriously okay with foreign nationals beating the shit out of American citizens and violating our own 1st amendment rights on our own soil? Jesus >

Yes, yes they were.
They'll say they weren't...but they were. >

Even worse, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis - a Republican - is allowing an international fugitive and former dictator, Jair Bolsonaro, to stay indefinitely in Orlando. The Republican Party in America increasingly supports fascist dictators.
(Florida happens to be a haven for pro-Putin Russian oligarchs as well.) >


Even worse, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis - a Republican - is allowing an international fugitive and former dictator, Jair Bolsonaro, to stay indefinitely in Orlando. The Republican Party in America increasingly supports fascist dictators.

People downvoted me when I said that Prigz could probably fly into Florida without any issue.
I wasn't joking.
Texas would allow it too. >

US says no more F-16s until Erdogan stops being a whiny little bitch.
We can keep playing this game. Erdogan won’t like the results. >

Those have to be shelved indefinitely. >

Just send them to Ukraine. >

Send some to Greece just to fuck with erdogan >

Oh, greece is buying F35s instead lol. >

Give Greece half-off if they double their order. >

Something about a BOGO deal for F-16s is the most American thing ever to me lol. >

It'd be right up there with 7m Pepsi points for a Harrier... >

Soon there will be probably Russian agents burning korans in Finland... >


finland Sweden have laws concerning blasphemy 

Wut >

Yes, at least Finland does. It was last used around 2009-2012 when a member of parliament Jussi Halla-aho first got 330€ ticket that got hardened into 550€. He said something like "Islam is a pedophile religion and Somalis' genetic trait is to leech of societies and live on welfare." So called Ethic Agitation he was suspected of was turned over. >

This was Turkey's intention from day one.  They have just been looking for an excuse that they thought that they could sell to the world. >

Is this final or are they still fishing for more backroom deals before they switch to yes? >

They're not getting F16s until they say yes, so... >

Let's be clear: Turkey is using the Quran burning as a cynical excuse to block Sweden's NATO bid, mostly because Sweden wouldn't play ball with Erdogan's effort to get Sweden to hand over Turkish political dissidents in Sweden.
I suspect that the Swedish far-right's decision to burn the Quran had a lot to do with infuriating the Turks in order to undermine Sweden's NATO bid. >

I mean, from the religious point of view, burning Quran is ok. Fire is a "clean" element. You are not supposed to dump it into the trash can, but burning is fine.
This entire story is a tale of two assholes united. One is a bigoted asshole, undermining Swedish NATO bid, another is an islamist asshole stalling Swedish NATO bid. Feel sad for everyone else. >


from the religious point of view, burning Quran is ok. Fire is a "clean" element. You are not supposed to dump it into the trash can, but burning is fine.

Only when you're going to dispose it (ie. old, torn up Quran that is no longer usable) >

Very similar to US flag burning. It can be a protest or a retirement. >

It is very difficult to burn US flags and just flags in general made from normal material, for those protests they make special burnable versions. >

Careful Turkey, Ukraine is going to get F16's before you do if you keep this up. >

They don't care. They signalled their intention to buy Russian s-400 missiles, and the U.S threatened to not sell them the F-35. They ended up buying them and were forbidden from buying the F-35. >

Didn’t the US just sell some F-35s to Greece as well? >

That would be hilarious. >

Not "would", they effectively already did it. This is just getting through the wickets. >

Rasmus Paludan is the troll who burned the Quran in front of the Turkish embassy. He is a right-wing extremist from my country, Denmark, who only very recently moved to Sweden. The Danish far-right is anti-NATO and pro-Russia. That little ghoul really got what he wanted. >

Turkey was going to say no anyway, cause Sweden wouldn't grovel. Respect to the Swedes for maintaining their dignity.
This is shameful for the rest of us in NATO who tolerate this bullshit. >

The swedish right-wing government has done nothing to maintain their dignity; on the contrary, they have done everything they can to appease Erdogan. Even promising to change freedom of speech laws. >

It really has been pathetic to watch. >

I guess Sweden and Finland will just start their own NATO except with blackjack and hookers. >

As a Swede, however much I'd like to join NATO, I'd rather us remain democratic and keeping our core values. Anyways, off to make a coffee. >

Finn here and I agree.
And well be joining Nato, together. No compromises. >

I really do love how this entire ordeal has even further strenghtened the bond between finland and sweden. We appreciate you, brothers and sisters <3 >

And so died the NATO open door policy, by 1 dictator inside NATO >

Two.
Orban getting a free pass here. >

Two dictators whose days are numbered. >

He didn’t seem to mind when people In Xinjiang were being put in prison camps just for being Muslim >

China is not trying to join nato >

Erdogan uses Sweden's and Finalnd's NATO ascention plea for leverage in dealings with Putin. No surprise here. He did the same with the EU and the refugees... >

I wonder why Putin Praised him even after shoot down and blockade. >

It’s not one single guy holding an entire country hostage. >

No it isn't, there's a whole lot of idiots in Turkey but having a president that makes laws so he can stay in power and who is actively repressing the opposition and enacting theocratic rules certainly helps in keeping the country back/moving it back. >

For everyone saying to boot Turkey: They control access to the Black Sea. They are strategically vital, regardless of their style of government. >

also one of the olderst members of NATO >

That's the price you pay for having a dictatorship in the organization. >

Hope they weren't wanting those f16s then. >

Ah, the Turkish Putin is at it again. >

As a Dane, I don't know how much value I see in a defense alliance that doesn't want to include my country's closest ally. We may make a lot of jokes about them, but they're our brothers, and I am having a real hard time seeing a future for NATO without them. >


I don't know how much value I see in a defense alliance that doesn't want to include my country's closest ally.

Everyone else wants them it's that fucking goblin cunt turdogan >

And another idiot in Hungary. >

Pretty bad look for NATO to be held hostage by a despot. >

Erdogan should be more concerned about turkeys economy - if you can call 100% inflation economy?!?
As hungary and bellarus this is just a kreml pupped....wont be in charge at autumn! >

Turkish lira is at the worst level it's ever been against the dollar and inflation is insane... Erdogan- "look at Sweden! Vote for me again" >

I get the benefits of Turkish membership, airbases and all, but fuck Erdogan. I’d swapped Sweden and Finland for Turkey of the last 10 years any day of the week. >

Dealing with Erdogan is no different than dealing with Putin. Everyone thinks it's all good and dandy until shit hits the fan and all of a sudden everyone was always of the opinion that we should have cut relations a long time ago.
It's time that we cut any dependence on dictatorships. >

Why do we keep seeing articles about turkey opposing Sweden, Finland joining NATO? Does it need to be unanimously approved? >

To clarify other people's responses: yes. >

But we should add the caveat of: yes. >

Yes >

Its time to stop spending money on turkey. Spend Your money elsewhere. Thats the only language the dictator Erdogan understand. >

Ha, I'm going to Greece for my vacation instead of Turkey >

Turkey president is an idiot >

Damn Sweden with their freedom of speech and expression. Turkey wants to take its ball and go home.. >

Then no more arms from the US. Cut them off. If they want to leave NATO, let them. >

Erodgan is a libility to the saftey of his countrymen. >

The benefits of having Turkey in NATO sour each time he pulls his bullshit. Why the fuck do we need a unreliable despot in our defensive military instead of two democratic and actual battle ready allies?
When the Turkish elections come around and if he somehow wins cementing his rule for life we should honestly look at options to expel them from NATO. Let's see how willing Erdogan is of puffing his chest at Greece when he's no longer in the alliance. >

If you know the history of attaturk and modern turkey, it used to be secular and religion was an afterthought. But in the last few decades the rise of Islamism inside Turkish political hierarchy has grown by leaps and bounds so much that the very secular military even has been usurped by theocratic lackey's beholden to the current dictator (yes, legally he was elected, but the validity of the vote lately is questionable) >

There is a two-term limit in Turkey, but Erdogan is up for his third election now. I don't understand how that works. >

Russia also has term limits... but I wouldn't call them a true democracy. >

Hey, they did "elect" Medvedev and that apparently reset the counter. Lucky guy that Putin fellow. >

I guess we're too democratic to join an explicitly democratic alliance *shrug* >

you need to be more like a dictatorship, you know, like the NATO members Turkey or Hungary, then you might have a chance >

Erdogan has Putin-dick breath. >

No place for religious bs in modern politics or life so you know. Thats that. >

As usual just abusing his power and not actually leading his country. >

Can we replace Turkey with Sweden? Nothing about the current government of Turkey represents modern values >

Erdogan sucks. >

Fuck it I say NATO trades Turkey and 2 future 2nd round picks for Sweden and Finland >

Only nation's with a free press should be allowed in NATO. >

Is there a process to get Turkey out of NATO? >

TRANSLATION: "I still haven't been bribed enough yet, and I also have elections this year." >

Why is Turkey in NATO again? >

Isn't the point of Nato to protect democracy? This is so stupid, really think it's time for Nato to tell Turkey to fuck off. >

Turkey should leave NATO. >

They bought russian made weapon systems against nato docterine. Kick them out >

They only bought them after US refused to give them the equivalent technology tho >

Turkey can use its strategic location like this for a while…unfortunately.  From an ideological point of view: Turkey has little business in NATO anymore, but then there is the value of what Turkey’s geography brings. >

Turkey is a pain in the ass >

They were never going to support Sweden's entry to NATO. Erdogan has been using this to drum up domestic support. >

Turkey should have been kicked out when they faked a coup and rounded up the entire opposition, they been given far too much leniency because they are strategically located. >

Nato is a military alliance not a democratic solution >

Portugal, member since 1949, joined with everybody knowing it was a dictatorship. Dictatorship overthrown in 1974.
Greece, member since 1954, including during the dictatorship from 1967 to 1974.
Fighting for democratic values is a relatively new mission. >

Turkey made their decision based on one professor declining a Turkish exchange student, one person hanging a doll looking like Erdogan and one Dane burning the quran. Turkey really gave three random people in Sweden all the power to decide the outcome of this question, kind of funny really. >

How is not supporting other countries to join the alliance you're currently in a smart decision at all? >

It's pretty smart if your agenda is to sabotage the alliance. >

But why >

Fine. It's time for everyone to leave Turkey for NATOET (North Atlantic Treaty Organization Except Turkey). Of course, that's kind of long, so it's ok to abbreviate it where needed. >

And no Armenian massacre either, right. Assholes. >

Fuck Turkey. Sweden and Finland need to get the fuck into Nato. It's dumb that one fucking country can hold this up. Espically when that fucking country is turkey. >

Turkey got Nato down there. They got them good and they know it and abuse that knowledge to get whatever they want. At least, Erdogan is. >

Easy, Sweden and Finland have now defense partnerships and tight relations with most of the nato partners anyway. So let’s dry erdogan out, don’t give him any western weapon system anymore. Fuck him and turkey. >

OK, fine, let's pick between Turkey and Sweden. >

Turkey: The drunk cousin who always shows up to every event and makes everything 20x worse >

Shocker - Russia scares me, so I must cower >

What if every other country in NATO vould vote to swap Sweden for Turkey? >

Can we kick Turkey out of NATO? >

How is a pro Russian state in NATO? >

Time 2 throw Turkey out Of NATO >

Kick Turkiye out and add Sweden. See if that changed their mind. >

NATO probably shouldn’t have allowed Turkey in. >

Why should Turkey have any say in that against everyone else though? >

oh FFS.  People of Turkey PLEASE vote this pile of shit out of office.  He is destroying your country and weakening NATO.
Or lets have a new organisation including Sweden and Finalnd.  We could call it Nordic Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) >

Fuck off Turkey, Sweden is more qualified and fits in better with NATO than you ever will >

Fuck Erdocunt. Remove the whole country from NATO and see how quickly his ass is removed by force. >

No fence-sitting and fair weather friends allowed. Kick Turkey out, admit Finland and Sweden, and then Article 5 when Turkey attacks Greek sovereign territory. 
Maybe the resulting puppet states will be more ideologically compatible than this pathetic Ottoman shadow caliphate. Ataturk is spinning in his grave. >

Hey Turks - can you just bounce this moron please? Do the world a favor. >

Erdogan let a bunch of his goons violently beat up Turkish Americans taking part in a protest of hie regime in front of the White House. Seems his thought process is questionable. >

Fuck Turkey, set up unilateral defense agreements that can be superseded by NATO membership later and then freeze Turkey out on any future arms deals or economic support. 
No F-16s for the dictator and he can enjoy the inflation while he cuts interest rates more. >

Turkey is like that kid in your group of high-school friends that everyone fucking hates but keeps around because he's the only one who has a car. >

Perhaps it is time to question turkey's membership in nato. >

I’d swap a Sweden and a Norway for a Turkeyeie. >

Why do people listen to that shit hole of a country >

i start to be sick about this two faced hypocrite named erdogan, fuck him >

I guess then the west should throw more support behind arming Greece in the Aegean Sea. We need to show Turkey what being supportive can mean for them. >

Why not boot turkey out and let Sweden and Finland in.
Two for one is a great deal >

I wish we could kick Turkey out of NATO. >

How the fuck did Turkey get into the EU in the first place? They seem to be a have-cake-and-eat-it-too country, to me, an admittedly ignorant American. They appear to get special privileges so they have a foot both in and out of the EU, and, yet, they seem to wield vast power whenever the EU votes to even convene a meeting let alone decide something meaningful.
Are they just a squeaky wheel or is their lone vote THAT powerful? Is membership a unanimous decision only? >

Kick Turkey out of NATO please. >

Turkey belongs on rye bread with Dijon and Swiss 🧀 not in NATO >

How about we throw Turkey out of NATO, accept Sweden and Finland, and offer a position to Armenia and Georgia, to surround Turkey and its vasal Azerbejdzan. We throw out a dictator, and surround him with Nato members so that Russia cant help him.
Right now, we’re buying Russian Gas trough Azerbejdzan, And allowing Turkey to disrupt Nato at its core. >

Why... In the fuck is turkey in NATO? >

Erdogan is basically just Turkish Putin at this point. >

Jesus. Can NATO just trade Turkey for Sweden? >

Can we kick them out of NATO? >

They have more strategic value than both countries. That Black Sea access is priceless >


They have more strategic value than both countries. That Black Sea access is priceless

The Baltic sea is definently also an area of interest for NATO as Kaliningrad is located there. >

Turkey converts the holy church of Hagia Sophia into a mosque and then turns around and gets mad at some edgy people miles away buying Qurans and burning them for attention.
Fuck off. >

it was last used as a church in 1400s so I'm not sure it's fair to say that turkey converted it from a church to a mosque. unfortunately it was recently converted from a museum to a mosque. >

It is still a museum. Still open to tourists. It is also open to people who want to pray. Still a stupid fucking decision,  there are a fuckton of mosques in the area. But nothing to bitch about. >

They practically closed off half the building when making it a mosque. There are a lot to bitch about. Cunts. >

Time to form NATO 2.0 and kick Turkey out of it. >

In that case, I say we definitely should accept Sweden's bid. >

Depending on where you live, you may already have. Turkey and Hungary are the ones holding back. >

True that. Russia's two stooges. >

Easy enough. Create and sign a new treaty without Turkey and Turkey can continue to suck on Putin’s cancer ass >

Turkey is as bad as russia. Chickens >

We can wait... No hurry since we are capable of defending ourselves and we have security guarantees. >

He's mixing up his internal politics with what NATO is about. NATO is about protecting democratic western-like open societies from threats from shithole countries.
Laws in Sweden permits burning of books even if they are mostly aimed at nutty religious people. This is to protect an open society from people with opinion JUST like the ones Erdogan expresses. It's almost funny how dumb what he says that makes it.
As someone said about this, so Erdogan wants Sweden to use the old blasphemy laws we once had? OK, rejecting Jesus as the son of God will throw you in jail, or worse. Will that make them happy? >

Why is Turkey still in NATO?  They've become dicatorship working with Russia. >

Time to kick Turkey out … I’d take Sweden and Finland any day >

start a motion to kick out Turkey >

Can we vote turkey out? >

Time to kick out Turkey then >

Kick Turkey out of NATO >

Turkey should never have been allowed into NATO! >

Can NATO members agree to just come to their aid in the event of an escalation anyway, without the official NATO tag? Fuck Turkey, NATO should just agree to defend Sweden and Finland without official NATO status whether Turkey likes it or not. Why does there need to be a whole damn circus for it >

Yeah good luck for Ukraine/Moldova or anyone trying to get into nato in the future. It's great idea but so hard to get in and you are literally risking your national defense when you leave application (If you are neighboring russia). NATO needs somekind of flexibility in the future >

The noble and wise Ataturk must be turning in his grave to see the destruction of a stunning country by mixing Government with Religion. >

create SNATO featuring Sweden and the non-Turkish NATO countries... problem solved. >

The EU solution for every problem™ >

We need to kick Turkey out of NATO. They are a blatantly antagonistic state run by a theocratic dictatorship and have zero business interacting with the West. >

America needs to withhold delivering f16s turkey wants to buy >

What the hell??? >

Can we just kick Turkey out ?? I think the rest of NATO is getting tired of his shit.
It’s honestly hilarious that Erdagon , who is the leader of a “secular” nation under Turkish law, is trying to impose his rule and views on Islam on the rest of the free world
It is like he forgot that Europe suffered CENTURIES of oppression under the churches thumbs and we finally decided to separate the church from the state because nothing good comes from a religious theocracy…. Islam led countries still need to figure that out .. >

Every autocrat needs enemies to remain in power. If there are none, he/she will invent some. >

Some how Finland and Sweden will be non member, members. Turkey and Greece are in NATO together, but Turkey is threatening Greece about islands in the Aegean. Erdogan is a primadonna and they know it. Turkey is important but you have to "deal" with him.