>

As long as they're willing to do the penis removal surgery and get castrated, I agree with you. Transwomen should be sent to women's only prisons.
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Why do you think we house male and female inmates separately?


If we allow self-id to change prisons, what exactly is stopping every male from choosing to move to a female prison? >


Why do you think we house male and female inmates separately?

Because prisons have been around for a very long time and that's just the way it's been.

If we allow self-id to change prisons, what exactly is stopping every male from choosing to move to a female prison?

Because not every male is just going to decide to be a woman >


Because prisons have been around for a very long time and that's just the way it's been.

It's also because the type who go to prisons do not follow the rules well. If prisons were co-ed, rape would increase and female prisoners would get pregnant, some against their will. Then taxpayers would also get to pay for either abortions or babies. Prisons are chronically understaffed and it's impossible to prevent all sexual assaults. But housing males with females is a recipe for disaster.

Because not every male is just going to decide to be a woman

But you agree some will? Some men who just want to move to the women's prison for nefarious reasons will do so. And women will suffer for it.
Like it or not, males commit sex crimes at a much higher rate than females. I would feel so sorry for any female inmates forced to be housed with males. You can't leave and you could possibly be raped and impregnated. Vs with female only prisons, yes you can be raped but you can't be impregnated and statistically those rapes will occur less frequently due to only housing females. >


And women will suffer for it.

Do you care about trans women suffering from being around cis men in an enviroment where not enough is being done to protect anyone from rape? 
Say for example we had a policy that saved 11 trans women for every 10 cis women it hurt, would that be a net positive, or do you value the suffering of cis and trans women differently?

Like it or not, males commit sex crimes at a much higher rate than females. 

The fact two groups are different, doesn't mean any sub groups of those two will be different in the same way. 
Do you have reason to believe that the same things that are true for males overall must also be true for trans women? >


Do you care about trans women suffering from being around cis men in an enviroment where not enough is being done to protect anyone from rape? 

I think there's a middle ground here that you're not seeing. I'm saying: pure self-id for prisons is bad. Not: Trans women should be housed with cis men.


Middle ground 1: Trans women can be housed in a separate wing in male OR female prisons. Only trans women would be in these wings. There would be a few wings throughout some prisons in each state so that there would never just be ONE trans women in isolation there.


Middle ground 2: There could be gatekeeping and not just relying on self-id- no deciding you're a woman when you've just been arrested or convicted of a crime. Those who want to change their gender marker would need to go through some kind of process to be able to do so. Not my expertise to say what exactly. But something that prevents Mr. Joe Rapist from deciding he wants to transfer to the women's prison because he wants a show and to sexually harass women all day.


And as for "amount of hurt," letting males just freely transfer to female prisons would be the worst outcome no matter what. >

The difficulty I'd have here is that you'd be justifying the exclusion of transwomen from women's spaces on the grounds they pose a risk to cis women that statistically they don't at any greater rate than cis women. >

Statistically if we were talking about the general population maybe. But with no gatekeeping we're also talking about convicted felon men just wanting to sexually assault and/or harass women or ones who just don't want to go to the men's prison.
I think some gatekeeping in this situation is required. Not that trans women should never be housed with cis women.
My whole problem with this is self ID for any male who wants to be housed with females. >

Sexual predators should be housed away from other inmates full stop. That's what should have happened in this case and the prison dropped the ball there. >

I think that's an acceptable compromise. !delta
based on the comments this is what ultimately happened. She was placed in a women prison away from gen pop >

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/SkullBearer5 (4∆).
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But what makes someone trans or not trans because as far as I am aware self identification alone is what makes it so.

I don't think this is actually quite right. I think what you're referring to is that in general, someone's self ID should be good enough for you. In day to day life, trans folks don't owe you any kind of rigorous evidence. But like, in principle, there is an underlying phenomenon there that is either present or not, and the truth of this may or may not align with someone's self ID. But for most cases, we have neither the means nor the motivation to try to test anything to affirm that a given person is trans. So we just listen to them and treat them the way they want to be treated. But that's not the same thing as their trans-ness actually being entirely a self-ID'd concept.
But in other cases, it seems reasonable to at least put some kind of criteria to prevent bad actors. In sports, there's usually testosterone / hormone requirements, so a trans woman needs to have advanced to a certain stage of her transition for eligibility. I think it makes sense for prisons to have some similar affordance, even if it's just some evidence of prior social transition.
That said, what a lot of your points are getting at is that prison conditions are quite bad and dangerous across the board, and these are major problems but are somewhat independent of trans issues. >

But what should that affordance be? because in sports that level of test/hormone isn't to dicated that the person is or isn't their gender but in the effort to create a fair competition.
And yes you'd be correct in regards to your last paragraph >

I think the affordance could just be basically any prior documentation that the person was trans or at least thinking they might be trans. Or possibly an independent psychological assessment. I dunno, maybe testosterone type tests would make sense, but that's not where I'd go first at least. But again, none of this should ever be something we should ask for in day to day life. But I think it's reasonable to expect some evidence that they're not just making it up on the spot.