>


They aren’t super common, however. You can tell the difference between novus ordo or TLM easily.

Well, yeah, because they differ in content and sequencing.  But that's not the distinction you drew.
​

This is referring to later changes in the Church (condemning disownings and allowing gay Catholics to receive pastoral care).

Please specify what positions you think were specifically altered vis-a-vis same-sex attraction specifically.
​

​In the online movement of traditionalists, there is a significant share that have some weird hatred for modern Christian music and culture. This is pushback against that.

It's not weird.  A lot of modern worship music is trash and devoid of theological content.  You don't need to attend a TLM to believe that Missa Papae Marcelli or Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence are more profound than Go Make a Difference.
​

I did not know this, though I think there are some advantages to saying the prayers in the vernacular in addition.

And I could just as easily argue that our faith is deepened by praying as Catholics both across time and space in the same language, connecting us all in our worship of God.
Online, subs like r/Catholicism and r/CatholicMemes are dominated by this movement. While sometimes it is true that future Catholics want a traditional church environment, I think these communities drastically overestimate that.

Are these subs supposed to be representative of Catholics at large? 
I would guess people who care enough about catholicism enough to post in a reddit sub about it, but unorthodox (punny!) enough to not be able to do that through actually participating in their church are going to be fairly unusual people compared to the average Catholic. >

I am referring to the online community here. Sorry. Particularly the “I’m better because I go to Latin Mass” people.
Most Catholics on Reddit are lovely people—this is a broad internet movement and one that isn’t huge, thankfully. >

But what is "the online community". Do you mean catholic people on reddit, or people who voluntarily choose to go r/Catholicism ? >

Most Catholics on Reddit are great; it’s a ultratraditional minority I have some issues with. These aren’t necessarily confined the certain subs. >


Vatican II was meant to modernize the church, and it was a great success. Acceptance of gay people into the Church (not in marriage, but surprisingly progressive), the creation of a Catholic community (“peace be with you”, another thing disliked by TLM) and yes, Christian music with gasp guitars in it. It has been successful, in my opinion as the Catholic Church is a rapidly growing institution. Overall, their rejection of aggiornamento that has grown the Church is strange to me.

The growth of the catholic church is happening primarily in Africa and South America a where few care about this type of thing except maybe the non-latin mass and even then homilies are still done in the local language. A modernization of the Church to better align with contemporary first world society happened during this time, but do you have any evidence that this modernization caused the growth in popularity?
Also I just wanted to note,

PS: As a side note, a minority of these people use Catholicism as a cover for right-wing beliefs [...] VERY anti-Israel.

Being anti-Israel is not an exclusively right-wing belief. >

What do  you think about the rest of my reply? >

I just think this proves there is certainly a Catholic audience for a modern movement, and many in the West interested in Catholicism not out of its traditions. >

But the west is insignificant when it comes to the growth of Catholicism. 
The edit you added to your comment shows that in the past 60 years, the catholic charismatic revival has 120 million followers. Many of those people were likely already Catholic who switched over. But there are more than a billion Catholics so that seems a little insignificant.
It doesn't make sense to look at numbers like this and say 'this movement is growing Catholicism' when this movement is US-centric and most of Catholicism's growth happens in Africa and South America.
The adoption of first-world pleasing policies doesn't matter for the Catholic Church' growth based on the facts. It's being done to protect the church from losing more people, and doesn't significantly contribute to recruitment. >


The edit you added to your comment shows that in the past 60 years, the catholic charismatic revival has 120 million followers. Many of those people were likely already Catholic who switched over. But there are more than a billion Catholics so that seems a little insignificant.

TradCaths frequently assert that young Westerners want to see more Traditionalist Catholicism, but I would argue that isn’t true. I was referring to the West, primarily North America when I said that.

The adoption of first-world pleasing policies doesn't matter for the Catholic Church' growth based on the facts. It's being done to protect the church from losing more people, and doesn't significantly contribute to recruitment.

Aggiornamento (which is meant to please social policies) is not meant to prevent most from leaving the Catholic Church. Most that leave are atheists, not converts to other denominations, and if you are atheist you aren’t staying for anything. The Catholic Church in North America is projected to grow 38 percent by 2050. Vatican II is meant to introduce new Catholics to the faith (through modernism) and allow others to go deeper in. >


This Mass includes ad orientem praying, a priest that faces away from the body of attendants, a unique church design, the mantilla, communion on the tongue and much stricter rules than modern Catholics.

All of those things are permitted in the OF Mass as well.
​

Online, subs like r/Catholicism and r/CatholicMemes are dominated by this movement.

r/Catholicism is absolutely not dominated by traditionalists.  Traditionalists are disproportionately represented but probably not even in the majority on that sub.
​

Acceptance of gay people into the Church

Vatican II did not really alter any moral teaching about gay people.
​

Christian music with gasp guitars in it

Vatican II did not do that, either.  Gregorian chant and the organ still hold the prime places in Catholic music, and guitars are no more or less permitted in the OF than in the TLM.
​

If you don’t speak Latin, you aren’t getting that moral from a TLM.

Why wouldn't you?  Homilies are still delivered in the vernacular. >


All of those things are permitted in the OF Mass as well.

They aren’t super common, however. You can tell the difference between novus ordo or TLM easily.

r/Catholicism is absolutely not dominated by traditionalists. Traditionalists are disproportionately represented but probably not even in the majority on that sub.

MB, this was an exaggeration.

Vatican II did not really alter any moral teaching about gay people.

This is referring to later changes in the Church (condemning disownings and allowing gay Catholics to receive pastoral care).

Vatican II did not do that, either. Gregorian chant and the organ still hold the prime places in Catholic music, and guitars are no more or less permitted in the OF than in the TLM.

​In the online movement of traditionalists, there is a significant share that have some weird hatred for modern Christian music and culture. This is pushback against that.

Why wouldn't you? Homilies are still delivered in the vernacular.

I did not know this, though I think there are some advantages to saying the prayers in the vernacular in addition.