comment: >
  
  Involuntary Celibacy- to be denied copulation or love despite a deep desire to have either. * In my opinion * these are a result of a society rife with distracting devices-to-vices addictions which rob a young man of the natural interactions and confidence intrinsically attached to courtship and attraction. Often the inability to find a successful relationship is wrapped in a distorted understanding of the female to male dynamic, a severe lack of familiarity with what women find attractive and engaging, due largely to years spent learning what women want from games, comic books, manga etc... rather than actual interactions with real women, win or lose. Rejection can be fuel for growth, but I find many in the current generation do not take rejection as a call to change or adapt, but rather further cements their viewpoints and plunges them deeper into avoidance. 
  I believe if you could take an incel and place them on an deserted island with 10 women and force them to work together for a period of 1 year to win a prize, the incel would learn quite a bit about what women ACTUALLY find desirable and what part of himself should be nurtured and grown to reach that threshold. In other words, incels don't need a strong, male figure - they need a supportive but critical female figure.
context: /u/andyb2383 (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
  All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
  Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
  ^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards >
  
  I honestly don't know what incels need, but there are PLENTY of positive male role models they had to actively ignore to get where they are. I think they might just need a break from the internet and the toxic community that wants them to wallow in the same illusory misery they're in. 
  That being said, insulting and demeaning people does not help. You're right. However, you can and should point out incel ideology when you see it. >
  
  🙄 yeah, you don’t know what incels need, you women are the problem and have the answer to solve it >
  
  What makes you feel that I'm a woman?
  Also:
  
  I honestly don't know what incels need >
  
  It doesn’t matter cuz if you were a woman you still wouldn’t help, you know damn well what we need, we don’t choose to be celibate >
  
  I'm not saying I'm not a woman I'm just curious why you assumed.
  Are you saying that you feel that all you and other incels need is sex?
  I'm curious- are you aware that sex is available for purchase? >
  
  The positive role models don't resonate with them. 
  You're technically right. But the problem is those "positive role models" that you speak of often say things that just don't resonate with incels. For example saying something like "You should go out to listen to music and dance, not to meet chicks". That is like speaking gibberish to a person who otherwise can't stand going to clubs. 
  Andrew Tate and Jordan Peterson are saying things that the incel types are already thinking in their head. That is why they garner a following.
  You first have to do a lot of research on what resonates with that crowd. Which I'm sure we are doing already as it is a very widespread phenomenon. Simply trying to plug people as role models is never going to work. >
  
  Exactly.
  Incels have blamed all of their problems on one thing - woman. 
  Trying to convince them that, hey, you can live a fulfilling life without needing a partner to validate you, and they look at you like you’re crazy. They have convinced themselves that they need a woman to have any value…not realizing that this attitude of dependence is extremely unappealing and part of the rut they are in. >
  
  
  They have convinced themselves that they need a woman to have any value
  
  As a former incel myself. I would say that this is not something anyone needs any convincing of. If anything you have to convince yourself the opposite. That sex and relationships are not the most important thing in life. Because the default for most humans is that IT IS the most important thing in life. Just look at how much of our art, music and media focuses on sex and romance. How many people put their family as #1 on their priority list. 
  There is a lot I don't agree with incels on. Particularly the woman hatred stuff. That never resonated with me. But the being extremely depressed when you're single part. That is definitely how I've always felt. >
  
  That’s a cultural belief, reinforced by our media, that a man needs a woman to be “fulfilled”. It’s not biological. Plenty of other cultures and civilizations have had alternative arrangements where men could be self-actualized on their own. 
  This is one of the narratives we need to change. I call it the “Superbad Effect”. The cultural belief that a young boy needs a woman to turn him into a man. Either the pursuit of the woman makes him a man, or getting the girl itself makes you one. Superbad is the most obvious example but it’s a trope in tons of 90s/00s movies. >
  
  There absolutely is a biological component here. Loneliness and desire for a partner is not purely a socially invented thing. Now, societies can manage the loneliness of people in healthy ways (monks, etc. as you say) or unhealthy ways (allowing an addictive infostream of monetized incel propaganda to be privately beamed into someone's head daily for years). But to say that it's not at all biologically driven for people to want a mate, and to be disappointed or frustrated at not being with someone, is going to lead you to very weird conclusions. >
  
  There is a biological need for a connection, yes. It’s just our culture that says it has to come from a nuclear family. 
  Men have a loneliness epidemic right now. The answer isn’t woman though, it’s not their jobs to fix men. >
  
  Nobody said it was. The point under contention is your assertion that men have convinced themselves that they need a partner to have value/be fulfilled/etc. when that is not really true -- it's at least in part a biological default, for many people. >
  
  I’m not convinced it’s the biological default.
  There’s an impulse to breed that is biological. Relationships and marriages and all that are human constructions designed to steer that impulse. 
  We’re in a weird transition period where the old social constructions are dying and we haven’t settled on new ones yet. We need a new paradigm where men and woman are equally self-actualized. Men need to channel their impulses towards product endeavours…but with no expectation or implication that a woman is the trophy at the end. A self made, self reliant independent man is going to, almost hypocritically, be very attractive to women who are equally professional and goal driven. >
  
  I don't think it's about "the trophy at the end". It's an unmet need for these people (out of many other needs they might have, some met some not). They see attractive people and want to be with them. They see funny charming girls and want to be loved by them. They see people in happy relationships doing things they themselves would like to be doing, and long for that. Then, for some unlucky few, they didn't have people who set them on a healthy course for that and have gone down a bad path of blaming others rather than becoming awesome. >
  
  Desire? Yeah. Huge desire? Sure. 
  Need? It’s not a need. Need implies severe consequences if you go without it. Food and water, a place to live, those are needs. A partner to share life with is a want, not a need.
  This is part of the language problem, part of the narrative problem, we have to get away from. Men need to be able to be successful and content without a partner. Needs being met and goal being reached means you are a successful person! 
  Implying it’s a need leads to implying that woman are hurting men be choosing to be independent themselves. It’s a slippery slope toward blaming woman for men’s unfulfilled ego. >
  
  While what your saying is true, you can’t expect people not to insult them. A good bit of them are misogynists. You can’t expect people to just be nice with them as they spew hate and bigotry. Its like saying “ don’t insult or isolate that racist. They just need to meet more kind hearted black people and learn that we are all the same on the inside”. It is technically true, but unreasonable to expect people to do it. >
  
  Insulting people isn’t going to get them to change their ways. It’s only going to get them to double down on their shitty views. Instead ignore them.   
  But let’s be honest, it’s not really about that is it? It’s about internet pricks looking to put people down. Most of the time the people on the end of “incel” aren’t even incels. They are just nerds or geeks or in some way socially awkward. Name calling on the internet has gotten so out of hand that it’s taking away from real issues. Racism, sexism, homophobia are all very real problems. But the internet today dilutes these issues by making endless false claims and needless escalations when really it’s just a difference of opinion.   
  “I don’t like the rings of power.”
  ”that’s because you hate women and black people!!!”
  ”no, I just think they didn’t honour the spirit of tolkiens world.”
  ”oh Jesus, you’re a fucking incel!”
  Thats the usual exchange, you can sub in whatever topic you want, that’s generally how it goes. >
  
  I agree that people do throw around insults too much now a days, but there are times where it’s warranted. It’s really a case by case basis type of thing.  I agree that insults could radicalize the individual more, but it could also show them that what they think is wrong. What insults and shaming does really well is show people what not to be like. This has a societal effect where less people will adopt these beliefs, as they see the social ramifications of having them. It’s not a perfect solution, but it’s the only one they deserve ( unless they are willing to make an honest effort to change, or get help). >
  
  
  we should lift them up in a positive way
  
  Who's we?
  That's the key thing here. You're not fundamentally wrong, insulting incels is unlikely to change them.  But who's going to do all this? Women certainly aren't, why should we put in all that effort for people who think we're lesser humans. Other men? 
  Prevention is probably key here, stopping this kind of attitude developing before it starts. >
  
  Don't think of them as lesser humans I guess. >
  
  Just to clarify, who are you telling to not think of what group as lesser humans? >
  
  People think of incels as lesser humans. >
  
  I think you are misunderstanding the previous poster. They are saying that incels think that women and lesser humans. >
  
  I did misunderstand it yeah. But because incels see women as lesser humans is no excuse to see them as lesser humans. >
  
  This is just a question but why do I constantly see the arguments that men need a positive male role model but I don’t see that nearly as much for women. I doubt it’s because women already have more role models >
  
  My own opinion is that while things are changing for both men and women and things aren’t changing in the same way.
  I think the concept of men and masculinity is changing and many guys are unsure as to how exist in the world today. >
  
  Yeah but like. The concept of woman and feminity is far more diverse and far less structured than for men.
  As a woman you could be have a masculine style of clothing and people won’t even question your sexuality or make you feel like your less of a woman. It’s also acceptable for a woman to take far more paths in life weather that be career wise or being a stay at home mom.
  So how is it that men are the ones that need role models. Is it really that difficult to choose your own path and be yourself. Why do men need to adhere by a strict standard of masculinity and manhood. >
  
  Well nobody needs to do anything. But we still have norms that help people navigate situations and set expectations and I wouldn’t say this is entirely a bad thing. Predictability does have its place. But given that right now mens norms have dissolved into so much amorphous vapor of course there’s going to be disconnects and resulting frustration. It’s like trying to speak a social language but nobody can decide if the conversations in English, French, Martian or something else altogether. 
  When a woman dresses masculine people generally know what’s she’s saying and to who. We do not have that Rosetta Stone for men. 
  Not everyone’s a vibe master polyglot or a renegade who doesn’t give a shit. >
  
  I mean, isn’t trying to pump out role models for the traditional masculine norm just perpetuating the problem. Its not difficult to find role models for men tbh they dominate my Instagram feed for some reason. But the problem is there’s only one type and your requiring men to sacrifice their individuality, their desires, and who they are to fit this one mould or standard for men. Wouldn’t it be better to just lean into the diversity we have instead and validate them as each being a valid representation of manhood instead of all going for the stoic, dark filter, hard working, etc ideal of men.
  Hasn’t it struck anyone as odd that gay men, despite having their manhood ridiculed and being bullied for being feminine seem to have a much more firm identity as a man and much less fragile masculinity. It’s because they’ve managed to overcome societal expectations of men which still remains really traditional. 
  We live in a culture that values individuality yet we look down on men who show such individuality because we see it as deviant behaviour. And as a result men who don’t have their life together and don’t fit the cultural standards set for men have an identity crisis. They know what is culturally expected of them and they see themselves not reaching that standard.
  Ofcourse it’ll be hard because the ones who have the most issues with their masculinity and manhood also tend to have the most strict view of what men should be like. Which is why every incel seems to be violently homophobic. >
  
  
  isn’t trying to pump out role models for the traditional masculine norm just perpetuating the problem
  
  It would be but I don't think that's what's being said. The role model doesn't have to be for traditional masculinity, but rather just something that is healthy and has good perspective. >
  
  Those exist in spades >
  
  I'm not the friend or family member of any incels (at least to my knowledge), though, so what do you want me to do? Just pretend that the people spouting misogyny aren't being jerks so I don't hurt their feelings? >
  
  No, don't pretend they aren't.  But instead of shunning and insulting them have a conversation with them.  Why are they that way, what made them think this way.  Some people may be too far gone, but some maybe just want help or advice. >
  
  Have you ever tried to have a conversation with one of them? They'll exhaust you. They're indoctrinated and it's too much to ask of a layperson to have a conversation with them.
  They need to be deprogrammed by professionals because they don't hold opinions, they hold beliefs. >
  
  I've learned from this thread is that you can't help them unless they want help.  You can want to help and offer to help but if they're not willing to then it's a lost cause. >
  
  As is the case most of the time. From my experience, they are greeted and welcomed when they want to engage and get out of the mindset, but whenever that tiny bit of incentive isn't there, it's fruitless. Whenever I tried to talk to them they completely ignored the content of what I've been saying, even if they weren't the rude kind.
  And at the same time it needs to be broadcasted that their behavior isn't okay. At this point, sexless men aren't incels when they can't have sex, but incel is an ideological mindset that comes with the notions of hypergamy, pedophilia, racism, sexism, and bigotry in combination.
  Those ridiculous notions need to be called out because they keep getting more insane and it worsens their own health too. >
  
  The problem with this argument, though valid, is because it requires incels to have enough awareness to realize that their behavior is the problem 
  Instead, they blame everyone else >
  
  I think everyone blames everyone else. That is what the internet is for these days. >
  
  You’re not wrong, but the incels I’ve been harassed by personally have been a special case of ‘I’m always the victim of everything’ kind of mentality >
  
  The victim mentality is the norm today (actually it has been in all of human history), be you a man or a woman. >
  
  You are misinformed re JP.  His book is specifically about looking inward instead of outward for blame.  He famously states to metaphorically clean your own room first before complaining about the larger world.  I cant speak of Tate, but get your facts straight. >
  
  Does your view acknowledge the existence of women? How can women try to help or mentor incels when incels view them as the enemy and inferior? >
  
  I think the role models need to be shown before they are entrenched in the ideology. If you are already in deep those that would've otherwise been positive role models become the enemy. They voice the opposite of what you believe. Therefore the positive examples must be shown before they become the enemy. That is to say in childhood. Which means the biggest contributors are probably the parents. 
  The actual actions or explanations needed to reverse or decrease the ideology are less clear. Will more compassion or respect of kids help? Is it mostly an effect of a poor male role model or a poor female role model? Are there other contributing factors? These answers are unknown to me. >
  
  This postive role models are not what they’re after though. The guys who encourage people to love their bodies or treat women right or focus on mental health are called soyboys, weaklings, feminists, losers. >
  
  
  The guys who encourage people to love their bodies or treat women right or focus on mental health are called soyboys, weaklings, feminists, losers.
  
  That's because those things in and of themselves will not necessarily help anyone get a date. Saying (or implying) that treating women right will get them to like you is how we got "nice guys". >
  
  There are both positive and negative role models online. Incels choose negative role models because they validate the Incel worldview, and Incels reject positive role models because of their philosophy of taxonomy in terms of who can be what and how any positivity is a lie or whatever excuse they have at hand in that moment. >
  
  Where are you guys from where you run into these people in real life so frequently? >
  
  Ill give you one good reason why this wont work. NO ONE CARES ABOUT THESE PEOPLE >
  
  I don't think you're wrong in your explicit claim, but it feels like you're making a bit of a "????, Profit" kind of argument here.
  The problem (fully malignant) incels are dealing with is that they're stuck in a self in a self-perpetuating loop in part because of the fact that they're listening to this sort of hostile misogynist "intellectual". The ways of thinking they inject are self-fulfilling: if you're enough of a toxic piece of shit, women really will start avoiding you, even if they weren't before. If you're convinced you can do nothing to be more attractive, you won't act to do so. And so on.
  The problem with these guys is the same as the problem with a lot of mental health treatment: it's very hard to help someone who does not think there's something wrong with the way they're thinking about the world in the first place. A depressed person can benefit from therapy, but might not go because they feel like "no, I'm not depressed, the world is just horrible". A schizophrenic person might avoid treatment because "that's what they would want me to do!". And an incel avoids positive role models because they've fallen down an intellectual rabbit hole that teaches them that respect for women is weak and that they're helpless to improve their own circumstances (or, in the Tates of the world, that they're going to be a super-strong ubermensch any day now).
  If an incel came to me and said "hey, I'm really struggling with this, and I need help not falling deeper into this misogynist self-pitying abyss", I would absolutely try to help them. But they're not doing that. And insofar as they actively try to promote those ideas, I don't have much choice but to try to stop them, for the benefit of all the men who haven't fallen down that rabbit hole. >
  
  I think a big part of this is identifying the men going down this dark path and helping them before it's too late.  Also don't just jump on the "pick on the incel" bandwagon in every comment thread.  
  Yes, Incels have awful and hateful view points.  But maybe for a few we can break the cycle. >
  
  I mean you get the whole “don’t say negative things to incels” bit you’re pushing is just the paradox of tolerance right? >
  
  It's different from that. There's parodox of intolerance where you don't confront them at all, and just let their ideas go. We don't want that and OP isn't suggesting that. OP's just saying don't needlessly shame & insult them. (Sometimes, there is a need, like to prevent the spread - but often that need isn't there and internet people just want someone to dunk on). >
  
  I don’t know if you’ve ever listened to Andrew Tate or Jordan Peterson, but their whole shtick is looking inward and taking responsibility for your own life. Not that I’m a fan of either one, but saying that they seek to “blame everyone else” is just blatantly false. >
  
  
  Instead when we come across these guys, we should lift them up in a positive way. If you know a friend or family member going down this road help them learn some communication skills, maybe take them shopping for better fitting clothes, cologne, and other similar things. Help them have a positive view of themselves without talking down or blaming others for their lifestyle. I'm married with kids now, but I've been lonely and alone before and it sucks the life and hope out of you.
  
  Yes, because people who lament that the world treats them poorly for being unattractive will surely be inspired rather than even more envious to see that someone attractive does have success.
  These “positive male role models” exist everywhere. They are the “chads” whom they speak of, whom they despise for being more attractive than they are.
  In any case, role models are silly, and “gender role models”, even more. He is a weak mind who needs others to show him how to live, and even weaker a mind who can draw inspiration only from those that share his genitals.
  Indeed, their problem is their obsession with gender and their needless compulsion to partition the world into that which they consider “male” and that which they consider “female”.  Let us not encourage their nonsense more. >
  
  
  He is a weak mind who needs others to show him how to live, and even weaker a mind who can draw inspiration only from those that share his genitals.
  
  You're out to lunch on this particular point >
  
  Trying to encourage men like this is exhausting, I've tried! They have a lot of excuses for not trying and can sometimes even admit they'd be able to date, just not the people they want to date. I think deep down they're either too lazy, afraid, or prideful and instead of just owning that it's a them problem they'd rather blame women. It's sad. 
  I agree that being cruel to them isn't the answer but with that crowd it's a lot of "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink". >
  
  Kinda hard for me to want to be nice to them when everything out of their mouth is just sexist garbage. Why would I be nice to someone who can’t respect my basic existence when they feel lonely? I’ve been through hard shit in life and never would treat another human being like that. There is NO excuses or justification for the vile sexist bullshit they spew. >
  
  There was a standout moment in VICE's documentary about incel culture that went something like this:
  Elle: just be yourself.
  Incel: That's a meme.
  Incels have been given good advice. They chose to ignore it and the positive role models that it probably came from (male or female).
  What incels actually need is a learning experience that allows them to distinguish between actually good advice and veiled validation disguised as advice (usually commodified in some way).
  An example for different afflictions. Mental health professionals help nervous people become comfortable in social situations by: 
  1: telling them to push their limits of comfort (within reason)
  2: avoid retreating from nervous situations at all costs.
  It sounds simple but the act of retreating back to a comfort zone gives relief as the brain is rewarding such behavior, which further inspires antisocial behavior.
  Returning to incel echo chambers is the retreating in the case of this post. While it can be most effective if they choose to leave the echo chamber behind voluntarily, it is more realistic to simply prevent the prevalence and accessability of such content to avoid the whirlpool of self-reward in the first place.
  For those already in the whirlpool where no escape is possible without external intervention. They will need a mental health professional rather than a role model or anything that leaves the decision to them. If they've fallen to this point, they will always choose the harmful path of self-reward. >
  
  
  . I've come to realization that these men extremely lonely, self isolated and have shut out from the world after years of rejections. 
  
  Nope. They choose to isolate and, if any actually approach people, which is rare, they're rejected BECAUSE they act like they do, believe what they do, not the other way around.
  
  Instead when we come across these guys, we should lift them up in a positive way
  
  Sure. In a world with war refugees, starving children, migrants being dumped in the cold, climate change causing escalating problems, dogs and cats being dumped, factory farming, and on and on, we should spend time trying to lift up incels in a positive way.
  When, exactly, is it on a bunch of toxic, nasty misogynists to stop?
  Do we need to lift up racists in a positive way? Is that something you spend your free time doing? 
  Do we need to go lift up nazis in a positive way? 
  
  Help them have a positive view of themselves without talking down or blaming others for their lifestyle.
  
  WHY? 
  When do they take responsibility for their own toxic crap, their own bad choices, their own lives? They blame women, you're saying they should also blame everyone else for not... lifting them up? >
  
  People aren't born racists or misogynists. Members of the Nazi party weren't always Nazis. You seem to have a very simplified 'good guys and bad guys' view of humanity if you think we can just ignore people who have hateful views. >
  
  
  People aren't born racists or misogynists. Members of the Nazi party weren't always Nazis. You seem to have a very simplified 'good guys and bad guys' view of humanity if you think we can just ignore people who have hateful views.
  
  Did I say they were born that way?
  I asked when they take responsibility for their views and it's not on the rest of the world to go "lift them up" to get them to stop being toxic drains on civilization. >
  
  We have to live with these people. And we have to live with the consequences of how they interact with us (including violent consequences). Imagine you're a teacher of a child with views like this: what would you do? Imagine you're the parent of a son with views like this: what would you do?
  Your hypothetical "let them sort themselves out" idea only applies in a fantasy world where we can just dump all the racists and bigots onto a desert island somewhere and leave them to work on self-development. >
  
  
  Imagine you're a teacher of a child with views like this: what would you do? Imagine you're the parent of a son with views like this: what would you do?
  
  Require them to get intensive therapy or gtfo.
  
  Your hypothetical "let them sort themselves out" idea only applies in a fantasy world where we can just dump all the racists and bigots onto a desert island somewhere and leave them to work on self-development.
  
  Again, not let them....' but not coddle and not take responsibility OFF them. >
  
  
  Require them to get intensive therapy or gtfo.
  
  We still seem to be living in some kind of fantasy society where a teacher can solve the problem by just telling their student to "go to therapy" or a parent can tell their son to "go to therapy". 
  
  not coddle
  
  What does "coddle" mean? What would a teacher "coddling" a student look like? What would a parent "coddling" a son look like? Is "coddle" your word for "help"? >
  
  
  What does "coddle" mean? What would a teacher "coddling" a student look like? What would a parent "coddling" a son look like? Is "coddle" your word for "help"?
  
  Aw, we need to lift you up!! Instead of 'that is wholly fucking inappropriate. You are grown. Stop blaming other people for your own problems. Fix them or don't, but you don't speak about women like that or think they're at the root of your dissatisfaction. That's all on you. >
  
  
  Instead of 'that is wholly fucking inappropriate. You are grown
  
  Are you skim-reading the comments you're replying to? My scenario was of a teacher and a student. No, they are not "grown".
  ...and anyway, even if they are "grown", adults need help too. You seem to believe in the importance of therapy, which is all about seeking help from others, so your entire logic here is self-defeating. There's just no such thing as "fix yourself". That individualistic ideology is just new age bullshit sold to people by self-help gurus. The mean-spirited libertarian right and the 'new age' left are completely in agreement on this point. >
  
  
  Are you skim-reading the comments you're replying to? My scenario was of a teacher and a student. No, they are not "grown".
  
  We're talking about incels, who are generally adults, not children. I assumed you meant college professors by 'teacher.' If you mean teenagers, then even more they can gtfo out of class. I would not tolerate toxic crap being allowed, especially if there were women in the class as well. No.
  
  You seem to believe in the importance of therapy, which is all about seeking help from others, so your entire logic here is self-defeating. 
  
  Of course it's help from others but it's useless unless the person is invested. They need to take responsibility. You show up at a psychologist's office talking about your problems are all because women don't want to sleep with you, and refuse to consider that's not the problem, you're not getting anyplace.
  
  There's just no such thing as "fix yourself"
  
  Sure there is. But I didn't say fix YOURSELF I said fox your own problems, and if you need help to do that, great, go get some. >
  
  
  We're talking about incels, who are generally adults, not children
  
  Source on that? Most high-profile cases I've been aware of are young adults or teenagers.
  
  If you mean teenagers, then even more they can gtfo out of class.
  
  You think a teacher can just say "GTFO of class" to their student? I mean, they can on Tuesday, yes, but what happens when they turn up to class on Wednesday?
  
  Of course it's help from others but it's useless unless the person is invested.
  
  Bingo. And how do you get someone invested? You treat them with empathy and a desire to recognise them as a vulnerable human, not as a monster or someone beyond help. >
  
  Role models are not the answer, the problem with role models in this case is the point of role models is to be better than the average person, something to strive towards but for the most part is out of reach or at least seems to be that way when you start. 
  For the majority of incels that means they won't see them as something to strive towards but rather someone who is privledged in a way they are not, probably looks wise but potentially via money or maybe just naturally better at talking to people either way it's not going to work. 
  What incels fundamentally need is belief that if they try really hard and do their best they can get somewhere with a halfway decent girl. A remodel doesn't do that it just shows them that someone else can. Honestly pick up artist classes were a better solution. >
  
  Pick up classes are way way worse. They don't help anyone "get girls" and more importantly they don't teach you to communicate like an actual human being. 
  A role model doesn't have to be a paragon, that's an idol. Incels need normal role models not crazy idols. The majority of men in the world have had a relationship with at least 1 woman, that's not some super privileged ideal.
  
  What incels fundamentally need is belief that if they try really hard and do their best they can get somewhere with a halfway decent girl. 
  
  I totally disagree. What they need is the belief that their worth is not based on getting a girl, that getting a girl is not the be all and end all of their existence. >
  
  
  Pick up classes are way way worse. They don't help anyone "get girls" and more importantly they don't teach you to communicate like an actual human being.
  
  Wouldn't this vary wildly on the specifics of the class? I'll be honest the only thing I know about these classes are like one episode I saw half of on spike tv over a decade ago but that's kind of the point, there's no accreditation not curriculum, it's just some random dude with decent social skills taking guys with no social skills to a bar and giving them pointers the specifics of which would vary greatly based on the random dude. But at the end of the day they still get the guys to the bar and talking to girls so it's a massive improvement compared to the current approach which is bully and demonize them into suicide or shooting up a school and better than a role model because there's actual direct interaction. 
  
  A role model doesn't have to be a paragon, that's an idol. Incels need normal role models not crazy idols. The majority of men in the world have had a relationship with at least 1 woman, that's not some super privileged ideal.
  
  How example is a normal person going to become a role model to incels? Incels hate the thing they want to be because they don't believe they can become it due to personal often genetic circumstances. The reason all their role models are crazy idiots is because they hate anyone normal who can get a girl because they don't believe they can become that. 
  
  I totally disagree. What they need is the belief that their worth is not based on getting a girl, that getting a girl is not the be all and end all of their existence.
  
  Except it literally is, biologically speaking. You are telling people to simply ignore a massively powerful biological urge. That's simply not possible not without medication and that kind of medication would just zombify them. >
  
  
  it's just some random dude with decent social skills taking guys with no social skills to a bar and giving them pointers the specifics of which would vary greatly based on the random dude
  
  Not usually. Seems to be one dude with questionable social skills scamming a bunch of other dudes. I've never heard of any Pick up artist/school or whatever being actually "successful" and a lot teach really harmful ideas about women as well. 
  
  talking to girls so it's a massive improvement compared to the current approach which is bully and demonize them into suicide or shooting up a school and better than a role model because there's actual direct interaction
  
  I guess it's better than murder but it's not exactly good and is likely to lead to more rejection. Pick up artists don't teach men to talk to women like human beings which is what they actually need. 
  
  How example is a normal person going to become a role model to incels?
  
  By them going out in the world and talking to normal people. There are plenty of "ugly" people who are happily married, after all most people are just average looking. Just go to any bar/pub etc and look at the patrons. 
  
  You are telling people to simply ignore a massively powerful biological urge. That's simply not possible not without medication and that kind of medication would just zombify them.
  
  There are plenty of happy single people in the world mate. 
  And the irony is that if you're happy with your own company, other people will be too. Your self worth should not depend on someone else. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's not impossible. >
  
  
  There are plenty of happy single people in the world mate.
  And the irony is that if you're happy with your own company, other people will be too. Your self worth should not depend on someone else. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's not impossible.
  
  The value people put on having a connection to a partner is going to vary. Just because some people don't really mind being single, doesn't mean that every person is going to be able to be convinced to reach that place. It's a very uncommon and abnormal place! Most people naturally yearn for that connection. 
  You're right that people shouldn't let it be literally the be-all and end-all of their value and existence, but I think that too is a bit of a mischaracterization of how they think. They just see a natural, understandable, normal desire that they have, and are unhappy that that need is not being filled, and ended up getting intellectually poisoned along the way to think it's everyone else's fault and to be extremely bitter that "chads" have it so easy (in this one thing). 
  People have many needs. We are just talking about a group who has this particular need strongly, aren't having it fulfilled, and have gone down a dark path. I don't think we are going to make much progress convincing them they don't have that need, nor is that even an outcome we should strive for! Like sure in some nice buddhist sense it'd be great if everyone detached themselves from all worldly desires and removed all conditions from their happiness. But that's a pretty fucking high bar for even a well adjusted person. That should not be the target we give to people who are in a deep hole. >
  
  The problem is that they have become so entrenched into their own delusions that the role models they should have instead of people like your examples say things they believe are fundamentally wrong. They just don’t believe them. >
  
  As a current incel I will give my take on this, I have a father who was there it was and it didnt change my way of thinking. Incels arent born theyre made, and I know I will get downvoted fot this but its the truth.
  No one wakes up one day and decideds to hate themselves or others. For me I hate my skin colour from a young age, Im from a muslim country and I moved to the UK when the syrian conflits were happening.
  Alot of migrants came into western countries and starting causing trouble, and it effected me from a young age. I grew up thinking I was never good enough even though I had a father figure to dispute that. 
  I needed something to pull me from it, in the UK there is a large pakistani group. And pakistanis are seen as the same as other muslimns and arabs, but they have people who they can resonate with.
  But there was no one for me, in summer I woud hate going into the sun becaue I would turn brown, I would look at white kids and be in awe of how angelic they looked. I looked like a migrant child, even thought I didnt even know what that shit was at 11.
  Girls would cry when they would be assigned with me to work, no amount of love from my parents changed that. My mum would wake up and tell me how handsome I was or how good im doing at school and I should be proud but I wasnt.
  I would get on the bus and people would clutch their bags old ladies would give me dirty looks. I wasnt agry at them I was angry at myself. And its hard when you come from a country where love and effection isnt shown.
  My father was strict and I respect him therefore I respect others, I will never hurt anyone because I know its me that I should change. Its not womens fault I am who I am its just the way I grew up which shaped me.
  I couldnt interact with kids my age so I just focused on myself and never gained that part of individuality. >
  
  I don't know why noone is addressing the elephant in the room which is physical (and behavioural) attractiveness. Several studies (Afaik based on dating sites) said that top 20% of males, based on attractiveness, get 80% of female encounters. Other studies show that while 80% of females have children, only around 40% of males have them. (I'm lucky to be in the 40% mark but not lucky enough to be in the top 20%). For centuries, the "abundance" of males was usually used up in wars, conflicts and manual labour, that was removing rather large amount headcount before they could become dads. Now, this isn't happening. Also, before the internet era, people had limited choice amongst their local population (usually), now, women, when presented with thousands of possible matches on the dating portals, and only physical clues, not the conversation, go for the most attractive males available. 
  I don't know how to fix this, but I know that incels are unhappy because they are unloved and unsatisfied sexually. >
  
  Internet porn is the issue. I have younger males in my family and have seen first hand how constant exposure to it destroys them. >
  
  I don't disagree with you.  The ease and availability of internet porn is harmful, to young and old alike.  However sex has always been sold from prostitution, to magazines, to VHS, to pay-per-view to now online porn.  So it's always been there.  I think porn like anything can be fine if used occasionally.  If you're a guy and needs to watch it to masturbate once every week or two I think that's ok.  Problem is now guys are using porn as a replacement for human interaction.  I've seen post where guys mention masturbating 3-4 times a day.  That's a serious problem and they should admit they need help. >
  
  Porn wasn’t okay before the internet days, it just wasn’t as easy and acceptable to use. The very thought that you’re okay with people jacking off to women getting humiliated and objectified shows a startling lack of awareness. Yikes. >
  
  I actually disagree, simply because of multiple previous threads on reddit asking women about their experiences with incels and it seems the incels actually go for whoever they think they can get to fuck them, their standards are random and they want attractive women just as much as everyone else.
  The problem incels have is that they think "incel" is a real thing rather than a self identified category, and filter their worldview through the lens of misogynist incel philosophy, making all their attempts to get laid futile because they're running fully in the wrong direction. >
  
  Nope, I've known a handful of proper incels (proper as in they actually used the word), and even the "least desirable" women around us wouldn't touch them with a barge pole. Because they weren't just visually undesirable or poor or fat or whatever, they were incels, they talked about Stacey's and Chads and the "sexual marketplace", they thought they were subtle and clever but anyone could see they were nakedly trying to get laid and felt superior to the people around them.
  in short they alienate women around them with their opinions and actions, it's not about some other "desirability". That's exactly what they refuse to understand that makes the incel ideology so problematic. >
  
  incels are created from hatred of rejection they never experienced. >
  
  Agreed. >
  
  I personally agree with Tate. He tells the incels that they are losers, that it makes sense why the opposite gender ends up rejecting them and that they need to take self responsibility to start the journey to becoming a better man. >
  
  
  If you know a friend or family member going down this road help them learn some communication skills, maybe take them shopping for better fitting clothes, cologne, and other similar things.
  
  While you sound genuine and probably didn't mean it that way. The person you're trying to help may interpret this as: you are in fact not good enough for a GF and you should change things about yourself.
  I don't think that's what you want to confirm to someone who is an incel. >
  
  Your position is true on its surface and largely in theory, but in practice, things are a lot more complicated.
  Part of the issue is that there are positive male role models, and plenty of them. There are lots of fantastic social environments and things for men out there, and things focused specifically on pushing forward a healthy, pro-social, constructive, and progressive model of masculinity. And there's plenty of reasons to pursue that model of masculinity just independently without even knowing about that, like, for instance, being well-liked by people more generally in your real life interactions and relationships, especially by women lol. And, I would know that this sort of thing is out there because I myself facilitated a program for a little while at a community/cultural organization, it was primarily a diversion program for people who were dealing with charges related to domestic violence, but at its core is 100% about putting forth that sort of positive model of masculinity. 
  The problem in practice though is that the so-called Manosphere sells, and I don't just mean emotionally to people who are frustrated, alienated, who want answers, and aren't necessarily going to think critically about ones that seem appealing to them on the surface. The scary thing now is that The Manosphere is a key component of the far right ideological pipeline, which at many different points are resourced by and incentivized by moneyed interests, and actualized online by major online platforms willing to look the other way, because the activity benefits them. 
  Like, I'm sorry if that sounds conspiratorial, but it's really not. Look at Jordan Peterson being platformed on PragerU, which was founded largely bankrolled by Dan and Farris Wilks, oil billionaires. Ditto with Shapiro on The Daily Wire. Alex Jones doesn't have the $1.5 billion a court says he owes parents of the Sandy Hook victims, but just because he isn't a billionaire doesn't mean that figure doesn't at least partially come out of Infowars and right wing hysterics being a cash cow. If that doesn't sound all that connected to what you're talking about, I guarantee that it is, and intentionally so... all of these seemingly disparate tendencies in right wing ideological organizations and identities have tons of overlap and leapfrogging, with varying degrees of intentionality about that. The whole incel thing as a more organized movement was definitely borne out of offshoots from the earlier Men's Rights Activism stuff, and while  MRAs and the more defined incel ideology aren't too prevalent at time of writing, a whole lot of that ideology has been fumigated all over the right wing political environment. Like, that's who Peterson's infamous statement about enforced monogamy was speaking to, for sure.
  Furthermore, frankly speaking, a meaningfully sort of social environment for men to be called to practice a positive and healthy form of masculinity would be betraying its own purpose if it wasn't also dedicated to criticism of toxic masculinity. There is a key reason why incels and the Manosphere are in denial of the existence of toxic masculinity, and it's because the whole philosophy tends to depend on, not the inherent goodness of men, but the inherent entitlement of men to good things in life. Maybe that sounds ironic because of how much right wingers talk about how entitled everyone else is, but, like, the whole golden age where people respected men and the nuclear family rightfully placed men in positions of authority for an objective reason, is intentionally revising that history to ignore that this idealized past never existed; if it did ever exist, it was enforced through either interpersonal violence, institutional procedure, or cultural domination. Like, of course wives used to be subservient to men, they had no choice! They couldn't vote so they had no political power (or they were expected to basically be an extra vote for their husband), they were not able to obtain financial independence because even if they could work it'd usually be for insufficient pay to be independent, they couldn't even get a divorce without fulfilling certain conditions and being able to prove them, in court, where, remember, they would be at an immediate disadvantage against their husbands if they can't afford a lawyer. 
  To put it succinctly, The Manosphere is attractive because it gives easy answers to complex questions that they swear up and down are objective and inherent. Again, ironically, The Manosphere gives you a perfect refuge from tough truths; as a man I am owed sexual tribute because that's the natural order of things that we as a society have strayed from against the natural order, so if anything is wrong, it can't be me. The dozens of women I message on dating websites not texting me back are lying manipulator harpies and that's why they don't want to have sex with me, it has nothing to do with such inconvenient truths as the epidemic of domestic abuse and sexual violence, which are obviously made up. Women complaining about unequal pay should take that as a sign to return to where they belong which is a subservient role in the kitchen. And so on and so forth. They say reality has a progressive bias--that's only if you bother to actually apply critical thought and investigation to it, enough to find that these social phenomenon have an evidence based core.
  There really isn't a way around presenting meaningful and effective alternatives to the toxic right wing grift model of masculinity without it being confronting towards men who have bought into it, like, even a little bit. So while obviously I don't agree that insulting incels or alt right men or whoever is very effective, it simply is not true that positive and constructive social environments for men and for creating one's own perception and expression of masculinity is exclusive to incel culture or Manosphere bullshit. Partially, yes, it's favoured by huge moneyed interests, but also at the same time, there is only so far you can coddle or acquiesce to men who don't want to give up the toxic elements of their own masculinity, before the whole point of it is entirely lost. >
  
  Jordan Peterson works with young men, who havent a postive, male role-model in their lives, trying to steer them in the right direction. >
  
  
  25 
  
  If most men had the option to date whoever they wanted and with as many people. The vast majority choose women below 25.
  • The reason it's looked down apon is because for the vast majority of guys finding someone whose really attractive is out of reach.
  I mean, are most athletes, actors(Leonardo DeCaprio), etc incels then?
  I know it was an example, but it's a literally biological urge to date younger, more attractive women.
  Most of not, all the women in my friend circle said money is the number one thing they look for when choosing someone on apps.
  • I suggest you watch the Documentary Broke. An ESPN 30 for 30 talks about how athletes lose their money.
  • The number one reason is women, and it's not even close. Guy, for example, who was making $3M a year said his most expensive thing he's ever bought is his ex-wife. >
  
  Comparing Andrew Tate to Jordan Peterson is insulting honestly. Not even remotely the same >
  
  I would argue that I see why Andrew Tate is a bad role model, but what specifically makes Jordan Peterson a bad role model? His main driving point to young men if you only take the cliff notes of his message is to get your tongue under control (control what you say), be calm and collected but not timid, "clean your room" which just means get your life in order, and tell the truth always (or at the very least do not lie as he states).   
  I think we can all reasonably agree with those messages so what about him makes him a overall bad role model? I say overall because we can find one flaw or one bad point anyone says, but as an overall role model how is he not ideal? >
  
  Jordan Peterson is not a bad role model, most of what Tate says is positive, aside from encouraging promiscuity. You just dont want men to learn the hard truth about life. >
  
  I'd just like to ask how tf jordan peterson is a negative role model? >
  
  I think he offers over simplistic explanations to complex problems.   He always uses the brick layer and warrior metaphor for how men have been exploited more than women.  I don't think he's a bad person, in fact I've seen some of his couple's counseling offer solid advice.   Interesting enough this post originated with him.  A few months ago the internet was making fun of him for saying that "he would be a spokesman for incels because no one else would".  That struck me as kind, and wanting to help. >
  
  i would like to chip in that Jordan Peterson's whole thing is taking responsibility for your own life, he has some great life advice and i don't see any of it being very 'incel', having read his book and listened to countless hours of him speaking (i'm a woman too if this means anything). it sucks seeing him be grouped in with a bunch of actual a-holes, whether it's right wingers or other hateful misogynists >
  
  What women think men should do to pull themselves out and what other men think these men need to do to pull themselves out is completely different and that’s what I think is funny. What Andrew Tate says is correct. As a man you should do some sort of exercise, look to elevate yourself financially, and self improvement. These things will lead to higher confidence and help get out of the incel mindset. Kind of funny people think he’s a negative influence when a lot of men should hear what he says >
  
  But that's the most generic advice possible.  Your doctor will tell you to exercise 3 times a week.  You financial advisor will tell you to make good money decisions, and you should always seek self improvement. >
  
  That’s the whole point. There’s no magic fairy dust that just fixes all your problems. It’s a culmination of a bunch of different assets of a man’s life coming together and all improving separately that can elevate them out of the rut they are in. There’s literally no other way to fix it besides massive self improvement. >
  
  Exactly.
  I don't know why teaching men to be stoic and dig deeper to find self improvement....is treated as  toxic and sexist by today's standards ? >
  
  
  negative role models like ... Jordan Peterson.
  
  Are you serious? Have you even read Peterson's works? I'm willing to bet not. 
  His entire motif is "anti-incel," where people taking responsibility for their own life and bettering themselves is tantamount to success. 
  
  You know typical type of incel who says things like women will never find me attractive
  only women under 25 are worth dating,
  Chads and Stacy's blah blah blah
  
  These are entirely different statements, and may reflect people who are sexist, depressed, have been victimized, or have low self-esteem. Grouping these "claims" together is generally unhelpful. 
  Here's the issue: I don't think you know what "incel" means in its true social context. You need to look at actual "incel communities" to understand that their rhetoric and issues go far beyond general loneliness, awkwardness, and singleness. >
  
  Incels need to be introduced to Top G. It's the only cure. >
  
  you had me in the first half >
  
  There can be as many positive male role models in their life, but all that won’t do any good if the incel won’t listen. >
  
  What is incels? >
  
  Send them Andrew tate videos . >
  
  They needed positive male role models growing up. If they are already an adult and act that way then nothing I can say or do is going to change that. >
  
  
  take them shopping for better fitting clothes, cologne, and other similar things
  
  This is a positive thought, but misses the point entirely, and accepts Incel thought patterns implicitly.
  These people aren't unable to have healthy relationships because they're unfit, or unattractive, or don't shave or shower or know about deodorant. They're unable to have healthy relationships because they have unhealthy thought patterns.
  Watching the documentary TFW NO GF was really eye-opening. You see average or even good-looking guys telling the film-maker that they can't get a girlfriend because they're ugly; they cling to that idea because it's simple and blames their problem on women being shallow. Meanwhile plenty of unattractive men are having relationships just fine. >
  
  As a woman, I refuse to massage the egos of these men. They want to - and often do - kill us. There are positive role models. These individuals just fall down a rabbit hole of internet toxicity and join the cult. >
  
  There are positive male role models everywhere. I’ve fidelled with the incel/red pill community and I overwhelmingly found my role model is Whitebeard from One Piece. You don’t always need a real person to guide you, sometimes you need a good enough dream and ideology.
  Demeaning someone can drive them away but if you aren’t mature enough to distinguish insults based on hate and insults based on misunderstanding then you’ll never mature. I know I get hate for not dating enough black women, as a black man, and you know what I do? I keep doing what I want. You can’t let the criticisms of others make you hate yourself or others. >
  
  Strong people don't use words such as incel
  Why some are so fascinated about someone's sex life is beyond me. >
  
  How is Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate negative role models? Like yeah I definitely agree some of their takes are SUPER QUESTIONABLE. But i do agree with a good amount of their life advice and think it can be useful for young people trying to figure what they should be doing with their time. I dont like the fact that Andrew has a hustlers university (LOL) and that he shames people who arent “rich and successful” but in general id say his takes can be helpful in finding productive things to do. >
  
  I think it's important these men are actually around more women more often so they can experience things first-hand to balance out the opinions they hear from others. At the very least, it'd help them ask better questions of themselves and even potential role models. It doesn't have to be a romantic thing or even a friendship thing. Working for or with women; just being around women, etc can help clarify their perspective. If a guy already fears rejection and goes a long time without being around women, it's very tempting and easy to fill in knowledge gaps with inaccurate or misunderstood theories. >
  
  As someone who has never had a girlfriend and I'm currently 27. I've tried to date for a long time and never had any success. I feel that the dating market has just turned into a free market where the top men get all the spoils. Any average women have lots of options between social media and dating apps. Looks are the primary focus in these types of dating. 
  Traditional ways of meeting people are falling by the wayside and online and casual hookups are the new normal. Unattractive people just lose. It's very taboo to say but it's true. >
  
  
  Completely disagree.  I was a virgin till 26, the only person I've ever had sex with is my now wife.  She's head over heels better looking than me.  I'm balding and on the heavy side.  She's slender, blonde hair blue eyes.  I beleive most women bond more with a personality than physically.  If you can hold a conversation and make a woman laugh that's huge.    
  I agree that dating apps have taken alot of the fun out of dating.  The old days of finding someone at the bar or club are gone in favor of things like Tinder.  History is filled with unattractive people who were able to find love, no different now. >
  
  
  I beleive most women bond more with a personality than physically.  If 
  you can hold a conversation and make a woman laugh that's huge.
  
  Even if that was true, how would most men even get to showcase their personality or humor to most women? >
  
  Why on Earth would you say Jordan Peterson is a negative role model? It is a genuine question as he's generally pretty positive, just very religious. >
  
  I find he makes excuses for people, especially young disenfranchised men.  He always pull this "well most bricklayers are men, and through history men fought in war".  So men are the victims not women.  That's an oversimplified view of history.
  That being said I'll read an listen to him, and he does have good points from time to time, especially when helping couples.  He's a smart man, and I beleive he means well just oversimplifies things. >
  
  it sounds like you have just seen videos out of context and have made an opinion out of it. jordan peterson is someone who values men to be men and to be masculine. its literally biological for you to be masculine. the reason there are incels is because there is a lack of masculinity in the world. the whole point of andrew tate is that he protects women, and provides for them. incels dont like women at all so how does that make any sense, watch more of them before you make false viewpoints on people. in fact i bet you dont even know what incel means >
  
  I don't think the incel thought current is linked to a lack of (male) role models. If it was, you could easily reverse it with thousands of already existing ones - from historic/religious ones like Marcus Aurelius or Saint Patrick to contemporaries like Arnold Schwarzenneger or some random teacher in highschool/college.   
  What should be addressed, and isn't, is the economic problems faced by the current generation. Nobody is going to date a broke, homeless man. Even if said man earns enough, nobody is going to date him if he works 12 hours a day Monday to Saturday.
  And those economic problems compound - no money to date in your teens leads to no experience interacting with women. No experience  dating leads to no experience in relationships. And so on.
  By the time your average man gets the money he needs (hopefully) in his mid-late thirties, he's had either no experience with women or a profoundly bad one. Which leads to what you call incels now.
  No idea how to fix this, but the cause isn't role models in my opinion.
  Edit: And we're in a Reddit bubble. The average reddit user is college educated and works in tech. We're somewhat insulated from the problems of the world at large, and what might seem a mild annoyance to the average redditor might be a life altering event for a normal guy working a blue collar job. >
  
  I'm sorry, I had to drag you into this.  TBH it's better not knowing. >
  
  I am confused on what an actual incel is, does it mean someone that is deeply invested in the identity with all the online ideology or is it someone who is an adult virgin, or is it someone who hasn't been on a date in a few years? At so many moments in time every single man has felt like an incel, and the feeling is dire when you're younger. Is the incel ideology an opportunistic belief preying on men going through a natural state of processing emotions at a vulnerable age? It is absolutely normal to feel like the gods have cursed your existence but are men making mountains out of molehills? I mean, I feel like an incel an total loser, but then I'll suddenly have a girlfriend, and it was silly to think that like that in the first place. Life is about taking a lot of blind steps and making wrong ones along the way, is it some people just can't handle that? Is clinging to the incel identity an easy way to put off actual self improvement? It just raises an incredible amount of questions, and all I can say is, I can see how some men feel that way, but it seems like an overreaction to something that may not be what it seems.