comment: >
  
  
  He is a weak mind who needs others to show him how to live, and even weaker a mind who can draw inspiration only from those that share his genitals.
  
  You're out to lunch on this particular point
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  I honestly don't know what incels need, but there are PLENTY of positive male role models they had to actively ignore to get where they are. I think they might just need a break from the internet and the toxic community that wants them to wallow in the same illusory misery they're in. 
  That being said, insulting and demeaning people does not help. You're right. However, you can and should point out incel ideology when you see it. >
  
  🙄 yeah, you don’t know what incels need, you women are the problem and have the answer to solve it >
  
  What makes you feel that I'm a woman?
  Also:
  
  I honestly don't know what incels need >
  
  It doesn’t matter cuz if you were a woman you still wouldn’t help, you know damn well what we need, we don’t choose to be celibate >
  
  I'm not saying I'm not a woman I'm just curious why you assumed.
  Are you saying that you feel that all you and other incels need is sex?
  I'm curious- are you aware that sex is available for purchase? >
  
  The positive role models don't resonate with them. 
  You're technically right. But the problem is those "positive role models" that you speak of often say things that just don't resonate with incels. For example saying something like "You should go out to listen to music and dance, not to meet chicks". That is like speaking gibberish to a person who otherwise can't stand going to clubs. 
  Andrew Tate and Jordan Peterson are saying things that the incel types are already thinking in their head. That is why they garner a following.
  You first have to do a lot of research on what resonates with that crowd. Which I'm sure we are doing already as it is a very widespread phenomenon. Simply trying to plug people as role models is never going to work. >
  
  Exactly.
  Incels have blamed all of their problems on one thing - woman. 
  Trying to convince them that, hey, you can live a fulfilling life without needing a partner to validate you, and they look at you like you’re crazy. They have convinced themselves that they need a woman to have any value…not realizing that this attitude of dependence is extremely unappealing and part of the rut they are in. >
  
  
  They have convinced themselves that they need a woman to have any value
  
  As a former incel myself. I would say that this is not something anyone needs any convincing of. If anything you have to convince yourself the opposite. That sex and relationships are not the most important thing in life. Because the default for most humans is that IT IS the most important thing in life. Just look at how much of our art, music and media focuses on sex and romance. How many people put their family as #1 on their priority list. 
  There is a lot I don't agree with incels on. Particularly the woman hatred stuff. That never resonated with me. But the being extremely depressed when you're single part. That is definitely how I've always felt. >
  
  That’s a cultural belief, reinforced by our media, that a man needs a woman to be “fulfilled”. It’s not biological. Plenty of other cultures and civilizations have had alternative arrangements where men could be self-actualized on their own. 
  This is one of the narratives we need to change. I call it the “Superbad Effect”. The cultural belief that a young boy needs a woman to turn him into a man. Either the pursuit of the woman makes him a man, or getting the girl itself makes you one. Superbad is the most obvious example but it’s a trope in tons of 90s/00s movies. >
  
  There absolutely is a biological component here. Loneliness and desire for a partner is not purely a socially invented thing. Now, societies can manage the loneliness of people in healthy ways (monks, etc. as you say) or unhealthy ways (allowing an addictive infostream of monetized incel propaganda to be privately beamed into someone's head daily for years). But to say that it's not at all biologically driven for people to want a mate, and to be disappointed or frustrated at not being with someone, is going to lead you to very weird conclusions. >
  
  There is a biological need for a connection, yes. It’s just our culture that says it has to come from a nuclear family. 
  Men have a loneliness epidemic right now. The answer isn’t woman though, it’s not their jobs to fix men. >
  
  Nobody said it was. The point under contention is your assertion that men have convinced themselves that they need a partner to have value/be fulfilled/etc. when that is not really true -- it's at least in part a biological default, for many people. >
  
  I’m not convinced it’s the biological default.
  There’s an impulse to breed that is biological. Relationships and marriages and all that are human constructions designed to steer that impulse. 
  We’re in a weird transition period where the old social constructions are dying and we haven’t settled on new ones yet. We need a new paradigm where men and woman are equally self-actualized. Men need to channel their impulses towards product endeavours…but with no expectation or implication that a woman is the trophy at the end. A self made, self reliant independent man is going to, almost hypocritically, be very attractive to women who are equally professional and goal driven. >
  
  I don't think it's about "the trophy at the end". It's an unmet need for these people (out of many other needs they might have, some met some not). They see attractive people and want to be with them. They see funny charming girls and want to be loved by them. They see people in happy relationships doing things they themselves would like to be doing, and long for that. Then, for some unlucky few, they didn't have people who set them on a healthy course for that and have gone down a bad path of blaming others rather than becoming awesome. >
  
  Desire? Yeah. Huge desire? Sure. 
  Need? It’s not a need. Need implies severe consequences if you go without it. Food and water, a place to live, those are needs. A partner to share life with is a want, not a need.
  This is part of the language problem, part of the narrative problem, we have to get away from. Men need to be able to be successful and content without a partner. Needs being met and goal being reached means you are a successful person! 
  Implying it’s a need leads to implying that woman are hurting men be choosing to be independent themselves. It’s a slippery slope toward blaming woman for men’s unfulfilled ego. >
  
  While what your saying is true, you can’t expect people not to insult them. A good bit of them are misogynists. You can’t expect people to just be nice with them as they spew hate and bigotry. Its like saying “ don’t insult or isolate that racist. They just need to meet more kind hearted black people and learn that we are all the same on the inside”. It is technically true, but unreasonable to expect people to do it. >
  
  Insulting people isn’t going to get them to change their ways. It’s only going to get them to double down on their shitty views. Instead ignore them.   
  But let’s be honest, it’s not really about that is it? It’s about internet pricks looking to put people down. Most of the time the people on the end of “incel” aren’t even incels. They are just nerds or geeks or in some way socially awkward. Name calling on the internet has gotten so out of hand that it’s taking away from real issues. Racism, sexism, homophobia are all very real problems. But the internet today dilutes these issues by making endless false claims and needless escalations when really it’s just a difference of opinion.   
  “I don’t like the rings of power.”
  ”that’s because you hate women and black people!!!”
  ”no, I just think they didn’t honour the spirit of tolkiens world.”
  ”oh Jesus, you’re a fucking incel!”
  Thats the usual exchange, you can sub in whatever topic you want, that’s generally how it goes. >
  
  I agree that people do throw around insults too much now a days, but there are times where it’s warranted. It’s really a case by case basis type of thing.  I agree that insults could radicalize the individual more, but it could also show them that what they think is wrong. What insults and shaming does really well is show people what not to be like. This has a societal effect where less people will adopt these beliefs, as they see the social ramifications of having them. It’s not a perfect solution, but it’s the only one they deserve ( unless they are willing to make an honest effort to change, or get help). >
  
  
  we should lift them up in a positive way
  
  Who's we?
  That's the key thing here. You're not fundamentally wrong, insulting incels is unlikely to change them.  But who's going to do all this? Women certainly aren't, why should we put in all that effort for people who think we're lesser humans. Other men? 
  Prevention is probably key here, stopping this kind of attitude developing before it starts. >
  
  Don't think of them as lesser humans I guess. >
  
  Just to clarify, who are you telling to not think of what group as lesser humans? >
  
  People think of incels as lesser humans. >
  
  I think you are misunderstanding the previous poster. They are saying that incels think that women and lesser humans. >
  
  I did misunderstand it yeah. But because incels see women as lesser humans is no excuse to see them as lesser humans. >
  
  This is just a question but why do I constantly see the arguments that men need a positive male role model but I don’t see that nearly as much for women. I doubt it’s because women already have more role models >
  
  My own opinion is that while things are changing for both men and women and things aren’t changing in the same way.
  I think the concept of men and masculinity is changing and many guys are unsure as to how exist in the world today. >
  
  Yeah but like. The concept of woman and feminity is far more diverse and far less structured than for men.
  As a woman you could be have a masculine style of clothing and people won’t even question your sexuality or make you feel like your less of a woman. It’s also acceptable for a woman to take far more paths in life weather that be career wise or being a stay at home mom.
  So how is it that men are the ones that need role models. Is it really that difficult to choose your own path and be yourself. Why do men need to adhere by a strict standard of masculinity and manhood. >
  
  Well nobody needs to do anything. But we still have norms that help people navigate situations and set expectations and I wouldn’t say this is entirely a bad thing. Predictability does have its place. But given that right now mens norms have dissolved into so much amorphous vapor of course there’s going to be disconnects and resulting frustration. It’s like trying to speak a social language but nobody can decide if the conversations in English, French, Martian or something else altogether. 
  When a woman dresses masculine people generally know what’s she’s saying and to who. We do not have that Rosetta Stone for men. 
  Not everyone’s a vibe master polyglot or a renegade who doesn’t give a shit. >
  
  I mean, isn’t trying to pump out role models for the traditional masculine norm just perpetuating the problem. Its not difficult to find role models for men tbh they dominate my Instagram feed for some reason. But the problem is there’s only one type and your requiring men to sacrifice their individuality, their desires, and who they are to fit this one mould or standard for men. Wouldn’t it be better to just lean into the diversity we have instead and validate them as each being a valid representation of manhood instead of all going for the stoic, dark filter, hard working, etc ideal of men.
  Hasn’t it struck anyone as odd that gay men, despite having their manhood ridiculed and being bullied for being feminine seem to have a much more firm identity as a man and much less fragile masculinity. It’s because they’ve managed to overcome societal expectations of men which still remains really traditional. 
  We live in a culture that values individuality yet we look down on men who show such individuality because we see it as deviant behaviour. And as a result men who don’t have their life together and don’t fit the cultural standards set for men have an identity crisis. They know what is culturally expected of them and they see themselves not reaching that standard.
  Ofcourse it’ll be hard because the ones who have the most issues with their masculinity and manhood also tend to have the most strict view of what men should be like. Which is why every incel seems to be violently homophobic. >
  
  
  isn’t trying to pump out role models for the traditional masculine norm just perpetuating the problem
  
  It would be but I don't think that's what's being said. The role model doesn't have to be for traditional masculinity, but rather just something that is healthy and has good perspective. >
  
  Those exist in spades >
  
  I'm not the friend or family member of any incels (at least to my knowledge), though, so what do you want me to do? Just pretend that the people spouting misogyny aren't being jerks so I don't hurt their feelings? >
  
  No, don't pretend they aren't.  But instead of shunning and insulting them have a conversation with them.  Why are they that way, what made them think this way.  Some people may be too far gone, but some maybe just want help or advice. >
  
  Have you ever tried to have a conversation with one of them? They'll exhaust you. They're indoctrinated and it's too much to ask of a layperson to have a conversation with them.
  They need to be deprogrammed by professionals because they don't hold opinions, they hold beliefs. >
  
  I've learned from this thread is that you can't help them unless they want help.  You can want to help and offer to help but if they're not willing to then it's a lost cause. >
  
  As is the case most of the time. From my experience, they are greeted and welcomed when they want to engage and get out of the mindset, but whenever that tiny bit of incentive isn't there, it's fruitless. Whenever I tried to talk to them they completely ignored the content of what I've been saying, even if they weren't the rude kind.
  And at the same time it needs to be broadcasted that their behavior isn't okay. At this point, sexless men aren't incels when they can't have sex, but incel is an ideological mindset that comes with the notions of hypergamy, pedophilia, racism, sexism, and bigotry in combination.
  Those ridiculous notions need to be called out because they keep getting more insane and it worsens their own health too. >
  
  The problem with this argument, though valid, is because it requires incels to have enough awareness to realize that their behavior is the problem 
  Instead, they blame everyone else >
  
  I think everyone blames everyone else. That is what the internet is for these days. >
  
  You’re not wrong, but the incels I’ve been harassed by personally have been a special case of ‘I’m always the victim of everything’ kind of mentality >
  
  The victim mentality is the norm today (actually it has been in all of human history), be you a man or a woman. >
  
  You are misinformed re JP.  His book is specifically about looking inward instead of outward for blame.  He famously states to metaphorically clean your own room first before complaining about the larger world.  I cant speak of Tate, but get your facts straight. >
  
  Does your view acknowledge the existence of women? How can women try to help or mentor incels when incels view them as the enemy and inferior? >
  
  I think the role models need to be shown before they are entrenched in the ideology. If you are already in deep those that would've otherwise been positive role models become the enemy. They voice the opposite of what you believe. Therefore the positive examples must be shown before they become the enemy. That is to say in childhood. Which means the biggest contributors are probably the parents. 
  The actual actions or explanations needed to reverse or decrease the ideology are less clear. Will more compassion or respect of kids help? Is it mostly an effect of a poor male role model or a poor female role model? Are there other contributing factors? These answers are unknown to me. >
  
  This postive role models are not what they’re after though. The guys who encourage people to love their bodies or treat women right or focus on mental health are called soyboys, weaklings, feminists, losers. >
  
  
  The guys who encourage people to love their bodies or treat women right or focus on mental health are called soyboys, weaklings, feminists, losers.
  
  That's because those things in and of themselves will not necessarily help anyone get a date. Saying (or implying) that treating women right will get them to like you is how we got "nice guys". >
  
  There are both positive and negative role models online. Incels choose negative role models because they validate the Incel worldview, and Incels reject positive role models because of their philosophy of taxonomy in terms of who can be what and how any positivity is a lie or whatever excuse they have at hand in that moment. >
  
  Where are you guys from where you run into these people in real life so frequently? >
  
  Ill give you one good reason why this wont work. NO ONE CARES ABOUT THESE PEOPLE >
  
  I don't think you're wrong in your explicit claim, but it feels like you're making a bit of a "????, Profit" kind of argument here.
  The problem (fully malignant) incels are dealing with is that they're stuck in a self in a self-perpetuating loop in part because of the fact that they're listening to this sort of hostile misogynist "intellectual". The ways of thinking they inject are self-fulfilling: if you're enough of a toxic piece of shit, women really will start avoiding you, even if they weren't before. If you're convinced you can do nothing to be more attractive, you won't act to do so. And so on.
  The problem with these guys is the same as the problem with a lot of mental health treatment: it's very hard to help someone who does not think there's something wrong with the way they're thinking about the world in the first place. A depressed person can benefit from therapy, but might not go because they feel like "no, I'm not depressed, the world is just horrible". A schizophrenic person might avoid treatment because "that's what they would want me to do!". And an incel avoids positive role models because they've fallen down an intellectual rabbit hole that teaches them that respect for women is weak and that they're helpless to improve their own circumstances (or, in the Tates of the world, that they're going to be a super-strong ubermensch any day now).
  If an incel came to me and said "hey, I'm really struggling with this, and I need help not falling deeper into this misogynist self-pitying abyss", I would absolutely try to help them. But they're not doing that. And insofar as they actively try to promote those ideas, I don't have much choice but to try to stop them, for the benefit of all the men who haven't fallen down that rabbit hole. >
  
  I think a big part of this is identifying the men going down this dark path and helping them before it's too late.  Also don't just jump on the "pick on the incel" bandwagon in every comment thread.  
  Yes, Incels have awful and hateful view points.  But maybe for a few we can break the cycle. >
  
  I mean you get the whole “don’t say negative things to incels” bit you’re pushing is just the paradox of tolerance right? >
  
  It's different from that. There's parodox of intolerance where you don't confront them at all, and just let their ideas go. We don't want that and OP isn't suggesting that. OP's just saying don't needlessly shame & insult them. (Sometimes, there is a need, like to prevent the spread - but often that need isn't there and internet people just want someone to dunk on). >
  
  I don’t know if you’ve ever listened to Andrew Tate or Jordan Peterson, but their whole shtick is looking inward and taking responsibility for your own life. Not that I’m a fan of either one, but saying that they seek to “blame everyone else” is just blatantly false. >
  
  
  Instead when we come across these guys, we should lift them up in a positive way. If you know a friend or family member going down this road help them learn some communication skills, maybe take them shopping for better fitting clothes, cologne, and other similar things. Help them have a positive view of themselves without talking down or blaming others for their lifestyle. I'm married with kids now, but I've been lonely and alone before and it sucks the life and hope out of you.
  
  Yes, because people who lament that the world treats them poorly for being unattractive will surely be inspired rather than even more envious to see that someone attractive does have success.
  These “positive male role models” exist everywhere. They are the “chads” whom they speak of, whom they despise for being more attractive than they are.
  In any case, role models are silly, and “gender role models”, even more. He is a weak mind who needs others to show him how to live, and even weaker a mind who can draw inspiration only from those that share his genitals.
  Indeed, their problem is their obsession with gender and their needless compulsion to partition the world into that which they consider “male” and that which they consider “female”.  Let us not encourage their nonsense more.