comment: >
  
  The problem with this argument, though valid, is because it requires incels to have enough awareness to realize that their behavior is the problem 
  Instead, they blame everyone else
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  I honestly don't know what incels need, but there are PLENTY of positive male role models they had to actively ignore to get where they are. I think they might just need a break from the internet and the toxic community that wants them to wallow in the same illusory misery they're in. 
  That being said, insulting and demeaning people does not help. You're right. However, you can and should point out incel ideology when you see it. >
  
  🙄 yeah, you don’t know what incels need, you women are the problem and have the answer to solve it >
  
  What makes you feel that I'm a woman?
  Also:
  
  I honestly don't know what incels need >
  
  It doesn’t matter cuz if you were a woman you still wouldn’t help, you know damn well what we need, we don’t choose to be celibate >
  
  I'm not saying I'm not a woman I'm just curious why you assumed.
  Are you saying that you feel that all you and other incels need is sex?
  I'm curious- are you aware that sex is available for purchase? >
  
  The positive role models don't resonate with them. 
  You're technically right. But the problem is those "positive role models" that you speak of often say things that just don't resonate with incels. For example saying something like "You should go out to listen to music and dance, not to meet chicks". That is like speaking gibberish to a person who otherwise can't stand going to clubs. 
  Andrew Tate and Jordan Peterson are saying things that the incel types are already thinking in their head. That is why they garner a following.
  You first have to do a lot of research on what resonates with that crowd. Which I'm sure we are doing already as it is a very widespread phenomenon. Simply trying to plug people as role models is never going to work. >
  
  Exactly.
  Incels have blamed all of their problems on one thing - woman. 
  Trying to convince them that, hey, you can live a fulfilling life without needing a partner to validate you, and they look at you like you’re crazy. They have convinced themselves that they need a woman to have any value…not realizing that this attitude of dependence is extremely unappealing and part of the rut they are in. >
  
  
  They have convinced themselves that they need a woman to have any value
  
  As a former incel myself. I would say that this is not something anyone needs any convincing of. If anything you have to convince yourself the opposite. That sex and relationships are not the most important thing in life. Because the default for most humans is that IT IS the most important thing in life. Just look at how much of our art, music and media focuses on sex and romance. How many people put their family as #1 on their priority list. 
  There is a lot I don't agree with incels on. Particularly the woman hatred stuff. That never resonated with me. But the being extremely depressed when you're single part. That is definitely how I've always felt. >
  
  That’s a cultural belief, reinforced by our media, that a man needs a woman to be “fulfilled”. It’s not biological. Plenty of other cultures and civilizations have had alternative arrangements where men could be self-actualized on their own. 
  This is one of the narratives we need to change. I call it the “Superbad Effect”. The cultural belief that a young boy needs a woman to turn him into a man. Either the pursuit of the woman makes him a man, or getting the girl itself makes you one. Superbad is the most obvious example but it’s a trope in tons of 90s/00s movies. >
  
  There absolutely is a biological component here. Loneliness and desire for a partner is not purely a socially invented thing. Now, societies can manage the loneliness of people in healthy ways (monks, etc. as you say) or unhealthy ways (allowing an addictive infostream of monetized incel propaganda to be privately beamed into someone's head daily for years). But to say that it's not at all biologically driven for people to want a mate, and to be disappointed or frustrated at not being with someone, is going to lead you to very weird conclusions. >
  
  There is a biological need for a connection, yes. It’s just our culture that says it has to come from a nuclear family. 
  Men have a loneliness epidemic right now. The answer isn’t woman though, it’s not their jobs to fix men. >
  
  Nobody said it was. The point under contention is your assertion that men have convinced themselves that they need a partner to have value/be fulfilled/etc. when that is not really true -- it's at least in part a biological default, for many people. >
  
  I’m not convinced it’s the biological default.
  There’s an impulse to breed that is biological. Relationships and marriages and all that are human constructions designed to steer that impulse. 
  We’re in a weird transition period where the old social constructions are dying and we haven’t settled on new ones yet. We need a new paradigm where men and woman are equally self-actualized. Men need to channel their impulses towards product endeavours…but with no expectation or implication that a woman is the trophy at the end. A self made, self reliant independent man is going to, almost hypocritically, be very attractive to women who are equally professional and goal driven. >
  
  I don't think it's about "the trophy at the end". It's an unmet need for these people (out of many other needs they might have, some met some not). They see attractive people and want to be with them. They see funny charming girls and want to be loved by them. They see people in happy relationships doing things they themselves would like to be doing, and long for that. Then, for some unlucky few, they didn't have people who set them on a healthy course for that and have gone down a bad path of blaming others rather than becoming awesome. >
  
  Desire? Yeah. Huge desire? Sure. 
  Need? It’s not a need. Need implies severe consequences if you go without it. Food and water, a place to live, those are needs. A partner to share life with is a want, not a need.
  This is part of the language problem, part of the narrative problem, we have to get away from. Men need to be able to be successful and content without a partner. Needs being met and goal being reached means you are a successful person! 
  Implying it’s a need leads to implying that woman are hurting men be choosing to be independent themselves. It’s a slippery slope toward blaming woman for men’s unfulfilled ego. >
  
  While what your saying is true, you can’t expect people not to insult them. A good bit of them are misogynists. You can’t expect people to just be nice with them as they spew hate and bigotry. Its like saying “ don’t insult or isolate that racist. They just need to meet more kind hearted black people and learn that we are all the same on the inside”. It is technically true, but unreasonable to expect people to do it. >
  
  Insulting people isn’t going to get them to change their ways. It’s only going to get them to double down on their shitty views. Instead ignore them.   
  But let’s be honest, it’s not really about that is it? It’s about internet pricks looking to put people down. Most of the time the people on the end of “incel” aren’t even incels. They are just nerds or geeks or in some way socially awkward. Name calling on the internet has gotten so out of hand that it’s taking away from real issues. Racism, sexism, homophobia are all very real problems. But the internet today dilutes these issues by making endless false claims and needless escalations when really it’s just a difference of opinion.   
  “I don’t like the rings of power.”
  ”that’s because you hate women and black people!!!”
  ”no, I just think they didn’t honour the spirit of tolkiens world.”
  ”oh Jesus, you’re a fucking incel!”
  Thats the usual exchange, you can sub in whatever topic you want, that’s generally how it goes. >
  
  I agree that people do throw around insults too much now a days, but there are times where it’s warranted. It’s really a case by case basis type of thing.  I agree that insults could radicalize the individual more, but it could also show them that what they think is wrong. What insults and shaming does really well is show people what not to be like. This has a societal effect where less people will adopt these beliefs, as they see the social ramifications of having them. It’s not a perfect solution, but it’s the only one they deserve ( unless they are willing to make an honest effort to change, or get help). >
  
  
  we should lift them up in a positive way
  
  Who's we?
  That's the key thing here. You're not fundamentally wrong, insulting incels is unlikely to change them.  But who's going to do all this? Women certainly aren't, why should we put in all that effort for people who think we're lesser humans. Other men? 
  Prevention is probably key here, stopping this kind of attitude developing before it starts. >
  
  Don't think of them as lesser humans I guess. >
  
  Just to clarify, who are you telling to not think of what group as lesser humans? >
  
  People think of incels as lesser humans. >
  
  I think you are misunderstanding the previous poster. They are saying that incels think that women and lesser humans. >
  
  I did misunderstand it yeah. But because incels see women as lesser humans is no excuse to see them as lesser humans. >
  
  This is just a question but why do I constantly see the arguments that men need a positive male role model but I don’t see that nearly as much for women. I doubt it’s because women already have more role models >
  
  My own opinion is that while things are changing for both men and women and things aren’t changing in the same way.
  I think the concept of men and masculinity is changing and many guys are unsure as to how exist in the world today. >
  
  Yeah but like. The concept of woman and feminity is far more diverse and far less structured than for men.
  As a woman you could be have a masculine style of clothing and people won’t even question your sexuality or make you feel like your less of a woman. It’s also acceptable for a woman to take far more paths in life weather that be career wise or being a stay at home mom.
  So how is it that men are the ones that need role models. Is it really that difficult to choose your own path and be yourself. Why do men need to adhere by a strict standard of masculinity and manhood. >
  
  Well nobody needs to do anything. But we still have norms that help people navigate situations and set expectations and I wouldn’t say this is entirely a bad thing. Predictability does have its place. But given that right now mens norms have dissolved into so much amorphous vapor of course there’s going to be disconnects and resulting frustration. It’s like trying to speak a social language but nobody can decide if the conversations in English, French, Martian or something else altogether. 
  When a woman dresses masculine people generally know what’s she’s saying and to who. We do not have that Rosetta Stone for men. 
  Not everyone’s a vibe master polyglot or a renegade who doesn’t give a shit. >
  
  I mean, isn’t trying to pump out role models for the traditional masculine norm just perpetuating the problem. Its not difficult to find role models for men tbh they dominate my Instagram feed for some reason. But the problem is there’s only one type and your requiring men to sacrifice their individuality, their desires, and who they are to fit this one mould or standard for men. Wouldn’t it be better to just lean into the diversity we have instead and validate them as each being a valid representation of manhood instead of all going for the stoic, dark filter, hard working, etc ideal of men.
  Hasn’t it struck anyone as odd that gay men, despite having their manhood ridiculed and being bullied for being feminine seem to have a much more firm identity as a man and much less fragile masculinity. It’s because they’ve managed to overcome societal expectations of men which still remains really traditional. 
  We live in a culture that values individuality yet we look down on men who show such individuality because we see it as deviant behaviour. And as a result men who don’t have their life together and don’t fit the cultural standards set for men have an identity crisis. They know what is culturally expected of them and they see themselves not reaching that standard.
  Ofcourse it’ll be hard because the ones who have the most issues with their masculinity and manhood also tend to have the most strict view of what men should be like. Which is why every incel seems to be violently homophobic. >
  
  
  isn’t trying to pump out role models for the traditional masculine norm just perpetuating the problem
  
  It would be but I don't think that's what's being said. The role model doesn't have to be for traditional masculinity, but rather just something that is healthy and has good perspective. >
  
  Those exist in spades >
  
  I'm not the friend or family member of any incels (at least to my knowledge), though, so what do you want me to do? Just pretend that the people spouting misogyny aren't being jerks so I don't hurt their feelings? >
  
  No, don't pretend they aren't.  But instead of shunning and insulting them have a conversation with them.  Why are they that way, what made them think this way.  Some people may be too far gone, but some maybe just want help or advice. >
  
  Have you ever tried to have a conversation with one of them? They'll exhaust you. They're indoctrinated and it's too much to ask of a layperson to have a conversation with them.
  They need to be deprogrammed by professionals because they don't hold opinions, they hold beliefs. >
  
  I've learned from this thread is that you can't help them unless they want help.  You can want to help and offer to help but if they're not willing to then it's a lost cause. >
  
  As is the case most of the time. From my experience, they are greeted and welcomed when they want to engage and get out of the mindset, but whenever that tiny bit of incentive isn't there, it's fruitless. Whenever I tried to talk to them they completely ignored the content of what I've been saying, even if they weren't the rude kind.
  And at the same time it needs to be broadcasted that their behavior isn't okay. At this point, sexless men aren't incels when they can't have sex, but incel is an ideological mindset that comes with the notions of hypergamy, pedophilia, racism, sexism, and bigotry in combination.
  Those ridiculous notions need to be called out because they keep getting more insane and it worsens their own health too.