comment: >
  
  once the tanks get there in real numbers (hundreds) it really will be a Russia vs NATO war and will probably change russian tactics a lot (nukes).
context: Western tanks will outclass & outgun anything the Russians can put up against them.. >
  
  They will most definitely perform well but they are not invincible. They have stellar records but there’s a big difference between going up against flimsy Iraqi T-72 exports with undertrained crews in the open desert and going up against the Russian army in the mud and snows of Ukraine without the benefit of total air supremacy. 
  Don’t want to be all doom and gloom, they are good tanks and will do well. But we shouldn’t be overconfident and be fully prepared to see Challengers, Abrams and Leopards be taken out at some point and not let it shock and demoralise us. >
  
  Of course they're not invulnerable, put enough explosive ordnance on any tank and it will be lost.
  ..but the Western MBTs have far superior optics, targeting and gun range & most crucially armour protection. It will be very,very difficult for a Russian tank to take out a Challenger/Leopard in a tank on tank encounter.
  And the Ukrainians manning them will have a far,far better chance of survival/escape from the tank than anything they're using now if they're hit by another tank or a anti tank missile/RPG. Catastrophic instant 'cook offs' like we've seen with so many Russian tanks, would be very unlikely, given the 'blow out' panels and separate ammo storage in Western tanks, designed to stop such a thing from happening.
  Losing the tank but saving the crew to fight another day is a top priority in a war of attrition like we're seeing.
  ..and I've no doubt the Russians will be super eager to secure their first 'kill' of a Challenger, Leopard or any other NATO tank, if for no other reason than the propaganda value. >
  
  These tanks will be a big priority for homing artillery rounds and Russians still have some small stocks left
  Western tanks can deal with Russian MBTs but a hit from a 152mm round has a real chance to knock out any tank. And unlike Western artillery, these tanks will have to get well within range of the enemy artillery.
  They are going to do well, but their impact will be limited until Ukraine gets 100+ more. >
  
  
  They are going to do well, but their impact will be limited until Ukraine gets 100+ more.
  
  I'd argue that throwing numbers here is the wrong play. The Russian play, if you will.
  We would do much better to help Ukraine achieve air superiority and use MBTs for their intended purpose, rather than throwing hundreds of MBTs to solve a problem they weren't designed to solve.
  The US has been training Ukrainian pilots to fly US jets since July (maybe November?) That will be the real game changer. >
  
  Ideally we would do all of those things. It's not like the US doesn't have the inventory lying around. >
  
  Maybe. But given how well Ukrainian soldiers have handled the land war so far, I would hate to be Russia when the first NATO jets do start arriving. I don’t think there will be much left of Russias invasion force after that. >
  
  Tbh, yes. >
  
  Can anyone help me understand, from a tactical point of view, why tanks are so valuable? I mean, I thought they were pretty vulnerable and outdated with drones and artillery in the mix, the tanks themselves having a relatively short range. It feels like the trouble of protecting one is not worth it, but I'm probably missing the point of tanks. Don't you need ground and air protection to go along with it? >
  
  Infantry conquers and holds territory.  Boots on the ground.
  Look at war status maps.  They show the locations where armies hold sway.
  Not drones or planes or missiles or other remote operators. 
  Tanks can potentially lead break-thrus of enemy lines, when protected by infantry, and with combined arms artillery and planes.  With logistics.
  Anti-tank man-portable weapons have made the individual soldier more powerful.  However the classics remain important. >
  
  Western protable anti-tank weapons* - the Russian counterpatrs doesnt match the nlaws and gustafs of the world >
  
  True for now.
  With time, western anti-tank technology nlaws and gustafs will leak into Russia's factories.
  Classified info, Patents and trade secrets should be used.  Just don't be surprised when important or lucrative technology eventually spreads into the world.
  The trick is to keep advancing, be at the fore front. >
  
  Battle doctrine matter more than equipment. Nike's don't magically make kids into Micheal Jordan, but Jordan wearing better gear helps he be a better Micheal Jordan.
  Ukrainian soldiers have better moral and cause worth fighting for, but wars grow longer morale drops. Western tanks, can help that moral and fill in gaps caused by battle losses.
  At the end of the day though, Ukraine is going to have the most complex logistics network to support all this. And logistics wise western tanks need more intensive work shops to repair and refurbish. Easy for western nations, difficult for Ukraine. Soviet tank designs were more field maintenance friendly iirc, but it could just be internalize propoganda. >
  
  Yes I've been wondering about all the logistics of this. British tanks will need their own unique supplies, repair vehicle etc, then throw in Leopard tanks needing their own unique supplies, added to existing Soviet tanks needing their own supplies. I guess western military logistic capabilities and systems will help enormously just to manage all of this. >
  
  That’s part of the issue, not just for tanks. All the donations coming from different countries, ranging from Soviet era stuff to modern weaponry, requires specific training and maintenance. Very fragmented and it must be a logistic nightmare on the ground. I guess Ukraine would rather have the tanks (and the associated maintenance headache) than nothing at all… >
  
  Can someone eli5 why we still haven't sent the god damn tanks yet? >
  
  They've been working behind the scenes for months to set up logistics for tank repairs, crew training, ammunition supply lines, etc in addition to all the red tape and politics involved with handing over some of their biggest weapons for free to a country without a military alliance in place. It should have gone faster but it's not as easy as just sending over some tanks >
  
  Yeah, you’re pretty right on. Except nothing is for free! Trust me, somebody will pay for it. >
  
  Yup, Ukrainians are paying with their lives. >
  
  We could send 10,000 Toyotas as support for these tanks and start another Toyota war.
  In the summer time, on the flat ground of Eastern Ukraine, thousands of new light trucks with guns accompanied by a few tanks would be terrifying. >
  
  Eh, won't work here. As much as the Russians suck, they aren't as bad as the Libyans. The Chadians requested those specifically because it fit their style of warfare and their relative lack of experience in doing maintenance with heavy armor. Ukraine needs a lot more though, plus they're already comfortable with using heavy armor themselves. >
  
  But why I keep reading the same announcements over and over again while nobody delivers?
  Can someone finally deliver those tanks to Ukraine, please?
  Forgive me my ignorance, but is it so hard to send tanks to Ukraine? >
  
  The delay is probably training up the crew and maintenance people. No point sending stuff into a war zone that can’t be used >
  
  And fking politics. I hope they trained crews already, bc im not sure that you can effectively train a skilled crew in just a few months. For repairs they just need to know basic stuff probably, western countries will set up repair workshops in poland with people who have years of experience working on them. >
  
  The British army have been rotating Ukrainian forces through training for months. Mainly infantry, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they had armoured units ahead of the announcement >
  
  Are these tanks are still impacted by the soft boggy ground that affected the Russian tanks? >
  
  Yes...they are heavy 75-80 tons each..but i have to assume ukraine understands its own mud and how to move around it...if one gets stuck it will be horrible to try and get it out,im not even sure a t72 could pull it out. >
  
  Thanks >
  
  Russia is now targeting civilian appartment buildings and still some countries hesitate to send modern military equipment.  Wtf is wrong with these people.  How many kids have to die before they realize this is a war against a modern day Hitler. >
  
  It really is time for russia to go home... if they still haven't taken a hint after 10 months, maybe this will drive it home for them. >
  
  I don't know why this is an issue. The West need to stop being kittens, grow some nads, and show the Russians you really mean business and don't give a fuq escalating the conflict. Russians only recognize violence and power. So, teach them a lesson. >
  
  A lot of good comments here about how the challenger and leopards are purpose built to fight Russian tanks, but they are also some of the heaviest mbt's out there and the bridges in Ukraine were specifically built to hold the lighter t-series tanks.
  I'm worried these tanks will make it to the front and not be able to cross bridges without the bridges being reinforced, which just gives away to the Russians where your tanks are going to come from. >
  
  Not all fronts looks the same,and my guess would be they will be grouped with marders and bradleys in convoys using manpads and alot of infantry just like how they protect the himars,they wont risk them.this in contrast of how russia sent in single tanks to just get blown up. >
  
  Man, Russia is doing the west all kinds of favors by invading Ukraine in a fucked up kind of way. We're getting to test out a lot of our weapons systems at basically no cost. Sucks for Ukraine but man Russia's extraordinary fuck ups have been a net gain for the west. >
  
  Ukraine on the other hand is currently creating their founding myth. >
  
  The real lose in all of this is going to be Russia. >
  
  Can we just give them some legit, top of the line modern equipment so they can just drive Russia out and we can end this thing. 
  Russia can't withstand modern western equipment. At all.
  Putin gets disgraced, maybe has an accident, and the new Russian leader can end the war to build out their new regime. Perhaps try to extend an olive branch to the west. We can get back to trading, and focus on global prosperity.
  Come on people. There is money to be made. >
  
  Ukraine is still Ukraine in spite of the Reddit narrative that Russia has invaded Sweden or something.    Once the war is over nobody wants to see their high end shit sold off to Africa >
  
  Let them join NATO and it won't be. >
  
  Bit Russia has already destroyed 4 Bradley's.... I'm nervous
  Edit: ok so this wasn't sarcastic enough without the /s. Russia claimed to have destroyed 4 Bradley's before they had even arrived... Jesus people....
  Edit 2: why would anyone believe what Russia says after a year of this war and the country's whole existence? >
  
  idk what other tanks theyd be sending fam >
  
  Clumsy behemoths which look nice but wont matter much anymore. It’s a drone & artillery war now. Tanks are the weapon of the past. We saw what happened to the Russians tank attack at the beginning of the war. Now you’ve got landmines everywhere. Earthen barriers. Anti tank missles. Anti tank drones. Drone spotted artillery tearing them to shreds as the slowly pick through the defenses. >
  
  Drones and artillery cannot push and hold territory, nor can infantry do it alone. Tanks very much have a role in combat still. >
  
  No they aren't and it's super annoying uninformed people keep parroting that shit. 
  Germany is not a holdout. Nobody send an actual export request to Germany. So Germany can't approve any exports. 
  Germany is also coordinating with allies on tank deliveries. That's why there is a summit in Ramstein 20th of January. >
  
  He is right, but for the wrong reason.
  Germany is holding out on sending tanks, yes.
  Not because they are being cheap, but because the German armed forces are completely and utterly fucked.
  The German army is crippled to a similar degree as the Russian army, but not by corruption and malpractice, by bureaucracy and red tape delaying every action and incrasing costs. >
  
  God bless the Brits. Of course most western countries are appalled at Russia's actions and are supporting Ukraine. But the Brits (and their Commonwealth friends Australia, Canada, New Zealand) have a record to be very proud of when it comes to defending freedom. They don't sit back and wait until their hand is forced or it becomes politically convenient. >
  
  I wonder how long tanks will be manned >
  
  Isn't the trick with tanks keeping them running?  Like maintenance and supplying them with ammo and parts a bigger deal than driving and shooting?
  Or is that just an Air Force thing? >
  
  Logistics are always the deciding factor in military effectiveness, tanks are certainly no different. >
  
  And this has been the case with all weaponry sent to Ukraine. From Soviet era stuff to modern stuff… they got all sort of stuff and somehow have had to train people on how to use and maintain it all. Must have been fun :o >
  
  NATO tanks charging through eastern Ukraine gunning down Russian t72's >
  
  I would have liked  to see Ukraine get 50 instead of a dozen but I think this was done more of a political move to get the flow of Leopard 2 moving from other countries that want to donate some.Even Finland wants to give them tanks. >
  
  Will this break the impasse at the front?  We are dealing with concentrated lines, trenches and artillery formations. 
  At the bitter end of ww1, when the tank made it to the battlefield finally there was an offensive weapon able to overcome a battlefield biased towards defenses.. is this a similar key change? >
  
  Hope it will contribute to break the frontline >
  
  We need to develop and being mass producing more C-RAM systems. Tanks are good, and very critical, but this should also be an amazing opportunity to evaluate anti missile/ anti-munitions/ counter battery systems. >
  
  It is time to kick the Russian out of Ukraine.