comment: >
  
  It’s always amazed me how much smarter most paramedics are than many RNs. The majority of what I have learned about reading EKGs has come from paramedics. It’s crazy just how in-depth they go in paramedic school and in nursing school we barely touch on just the basic rhythms. Forget about bundle branch blocks and junctional rhythms.
context: Video: Illinois paramedics charged after patient, strapped face-down, dies
  
  Title really burying the lede there >
  
  And the patient >
  
  Hey oh! >
  
  According to the coroner’s autopsy report, Moore died of “compressional and positional asphyxia due to prone facedown restraint on a paramedic transportation cot/stretcher by tightened straps across back and lower body in the setting of lethargy and underlying chronic alcoholism.” >
  
  Jesus Christ… I’m sure it gets tiring to deal with addicts day in, day out, but if you’re at the point of not treating them professionally, with compassion… it’s time to find a new line of work. >
  
  My buddy is EMS in Tacoma. Literally all he does is respond to homeless camps for drug related calls. He's getting out of it soon because he signed up to help people, not deal with violent crackheads 14 hours a day. >
  
  Likely shit pay as well. >
  
  I was mortified when I realized what my EMT buddies were being paid, even with overtime, in Oklahoma. That job was burning them all out because in order to get ahead they absolutely had to work overtime each week. They’ve all switched to much better careers at this point fortunately. 
  What I’m describing above is depressing, but then you think about what exactly they dealt with under these conditions on a day to day basis and it definitely becomes straight up evil that they are so underpaid in my opinion. Dead children, crackheads, grieving family members, morbidly obese and or mentally ill hoarders, Covid exposure during the height of the lockdown, and much much more. Nursing definitely sounds like a career that burns you out too, but I guess atleast their pay keeps you from being absolutely paycheck to paycheck.
  Sorry for the long rant. I think EMTs and Paramedics don’t get as much public appreciation as Fire or Police and they should. >
  
  $9.50 in Florida 🙃
  Entry level county owned not private circa 2016 >
  
  For anyone that didn't read the article, he died of positional asphyxiation. Probably because they strapped him facedown. Also, considering their comments during the whole thing, they probably shouldn't have been paramedics. Being a medical professional requires a lot of patient empathy, and when you're that far gone, you need to find a new career. >
  
  maybe we should hire folks at better than 13 dollars an hour pay :) >
  
  Pretty sure fuckheads are gonna stay fuckheads, no matter how much you pay them. Paying this woman $30 an hour wouldn't increase her compassion at all >
  
  Hes suggesting the low pay attracts characters like these two, and if we were to raise the pay it would attract better candidates who wouldn't do what these two did >
  
  The two paramedics that were charged were probably pissed that their more experienced but less paid co-worker recently quit, upping their workload. >
  
  Bye Felicia >
  
  Understood_that_reference.jpg >
  
  I'm no expert, and I am cynical as hell. IMO, this is an overcharge, no way this is 1st degree murder. This is how they let people go, just like Kyle Rittenhouse.
  It's a lesser homicide, negligence, not pre-planned intentional murder, and the jury will see that and come back not guilty. They do the same for cops and other city insiders. >
  
  Read #2:
  
  (a) A person who kills an individual without lawful justification commits first degree murder if, in performing the acts which cause the death:
  
  (1) he or she either intends to kill or do great bodily harm to that individual or another, or knows that such acts will cause death to that individual or another; or
  
  (2) he or she knows that such acts create a strong probability of death or great bodily harm to that individual or another; or
  
  (3) he or she, acting alone or with one or more participants, commits or attempts to commit a forcible felony other than second degree murder, and in the course of or in furtherance of such crime or flight therefrom, he or she or another participant causes the death of a person. >
  
  Man after reading how they treated him they deserve it.
  No compassion or professionalism.  Strapping him face down? Wtf >
  
  reprehensible behavior by both of these "providers" and I hope they lose their state cards and spend a long time in jail. absolutely no excuse for this. I've been a paramedic for a long time and even for the 3am drunk patient call, they're still another person and there is NEVER justification for what they did. It's negligence, carelessness, and murder. >
  
  As a paramedic, I'm quite okay with them getting charged! 
  Cruel Bullshit like this literally kills people and is why EMS has no respect within the medical community. >
  
  Pretty typical when it comes to how the fields of health and law enforcement treat addicts. >
  
  It's hard to hire patient, empathetic, professional people to go through hell for $13/hr.
  It's also important to be able to fire people who are burnt out or don't have the right mindset, knowing that you can find quality workers to replace them if needed. >
  
  No way a 1st degree charge is gonna stick. >
  
  Keep in mind that every state has their own statutes covering homicide and the 'premeditated = first degree murder' rule of thumb doesn't apply everywhere - Here's Illinois' statute covering first degree murder:
  
  (a) A person who kills an individual without lawful justification commits first degree murder if, in performing the acts which cause the death:
  (1) he or she either intends to kill or do great bodily harm to that individual or another, or knows that such acts will cause death to that individual or another; or
  (2) he or she knows that such acts create a strong probability of death or great bodily harm to that individual or another; or
  (3) he or she, acting alone or with one or more participants, commits or attempts to commit a forcible felony other than second degree murder, and in the course of or in furtherance of such crime or flight therefrom, he or she or another participant causes the death of a person. 
  
  Emphasis mine - The prosecution will likely argue that the accused, being trained paramedics, were aware of the dangers of positional asphyxiation and why restraining someone in a prone position such as they did can lead to death in the restrained person. >
  
  this is what i was thinking as well. they're going to hit them with the worst charge they can and probably plea deal it down from there.
  fuck these two, though. my god. horrible patient "care." when helping train others in EMS, this is something that i have ZERO tolerance for. >
  
  They strapped him down face first so he couldnt breathe properly
  Quote from the article - these paramedics didnt care about their patient
  Finley is heard yelling at Moore to get up and walk out to the ambulance. “You’re gonna have to walk ‘cause we ain’t carrying you!” she says. “I am seriously not in the mood for this dumb sh*t.” >
  
  ...Why you should follow procedure when possible even when you've had it up to here with what you have to put up with on the job. >
  
  Family needs to hire a lawyer. >
  
  It makes most sense as a civil case. Probably against the hospital as well as the paramedics. >
  
  Paramedics and their employer. They'll drop whatever their policy limits are immediately. >
  
  Negligence maybe,but homicidle intent not seeing it. >
  
  I worked for a government ems service. I wish I could say I didn’t see this disregard for life in some coworkers but I am in fact not surprised. Thank >
  
  According to the coroner’s autopsy report, Moore died of “compressional and positional asphyxia due to prone facedown restraint on a paramedic transportation cot/stretcher by tightened straps across back and lower body in the setting of lethargy and underlying chronic alcoholism.” >
  
  So suffocated?
  Edit - more accurately, they made it impossible for this person to breathe. Just wanted to make sure I was reading it right bc it's a lot of words >
  
  Clinically, yes. But the important part as far as the law is concerned is how he asphyxiated. Namely, he couldn't expand his chest to draw in air because the paramedics strapped him down so tightly, and likewise made sure he couldn't get into a position where he could breath. 
  The facts that it was a conscious choice to do so on the paramedics' parts and that he would have lived if they hadn't makes it murder. >
  
  Isn’t that manslaughter? >
  
  Maybe if you weren't a trained medical professional but there is no way these two wouldn't have known what they were doing was likely to impede the patient's breathing. >
  
  i mean, they are meant to check and monitor your alive and breathing pretty much the whole time your in there care right? sooooo what they ratchet him down and start playing candy crush while in traffic? >
  
  They must have done some really egregious shit to get charged with FIRST degree murder. That means the prosecutors say it was planned an intentional. >
  
  Honestly the charges are my issue for sure. As a health care professional, I definitely think they were negligent but they’re going to have a hell of a time proving premeditation and intent in this case. Maybe I don’t have a solid understanding of the definitions of murder charges but I thought that was the main factor in first degree murder? >
  
  In Illinois First Degree Murder includes intentionally committing an act which the defendant knows creates a strong probability of death or great bodily harm and which, in fact, leads to the death of another. In this case I imagine the prosecutors believe the paramedics knew that strapping the patient down like that in his condition created a risk of great bodily harm or death. >
  
  I kept reading after my comment and came across that so I do see how what they did could fall in that category! I just didn’t want to see them just getting let off because someone decided to get too crazy with the charges. I’ve heard of that happening before in other cases. >
  
  Yeah they don't teach you to strap someone face down in EMT training. >
  
  Quite literally the opposite. You’re taught to never, ever, ever transport any patient in the prone position. >
  
  Weighing in on this as a former EMT. What these two did goes against all medical advice and training. Nowhere in my training or protocols was I ever given instructions or even the option to strap a patient down prone. Supine, sure, but never prone. A patient can be sufficiently and safely restrained in a supine position, no problem. If the patient is violent and you aren't confident in your restraints, there's no shame in borrowing an officer's handcuffs or having them ride along. These two did not do that, and they got this man killed. 
  I've been there, yall. This job will eat away at your soul. You sign on to help people who need you, and you end up running nothing but bullshit nausea calls, abnormal lab values, and addicts. For every serious call where a life is truly on the line, you will get off late for a grown man who threw up, or skip a meal for a grown man who has a headache, or lose sleep for a grown man who had a nightmare, while all the while, your management pushes you to run more calls, transport more patients, finish those reports, work that overtime. And eventually, you get burnt out, and you start to see the public not as people who need you, but as people who make your life harder. It happened to me. 
  If that's you, you need to get out of the field. And I'm not saying that to be rude or hostile, I'm saying it for your own good. I was absolutely miserable towards the end of my career. I made shit money, slept like shit, and my company and patients treated me like shit. Leaving EMS is what finally allowed me to be happy again, and if you're missing that, there's no shame in finding a new field. Do it before you make a bad decision and it hurts somebody. You don't want that on your conscience. Remember why you joined this field. >
  
  Do people really call ambulances for things like that? The closest to that I’ve seen is my sister in law. It’s usually issues that she does need to be hospitalized for, but are not immediately life threatening (as in, they could’ve just driven to the ER themselves, she didn’t need immediate emergency services). I can’t fathom calling ems for anything other than the most dire health condition. >
  
  Yes, they do. 
  I’ve work in opioid abuse for over 5 years now and one popular thing I see addicts do is constantly go to the ER over anything. Not feeling good? ER. Headache? ER. That rather than get rest and take medicine their first instinct when they don’t feel good is to go to the ER, no insurance, and just waste time and resources.
  So yes, people absolutely call ambulances and go to the ER over the dumbest, smallest things, because addict or not, many people are incredibly selfish, rude, lack self awareness, have no critical thinking, and simply just don’t care. >
  
  I think a lot of it has to due with this need for instant gratification in America.  You see it in so many aspects of life (e.g. drugs, food, entertainment, etc.).  I wonder if other wealthy nations have a similar widespread problem of people using ambos as personal taxis.  I’ve since left that side of healthcare (4 years EMS and 5 in the ED) and I do not regret it one bit. >
  
  This is depressing to watch. Dude called for help. These people arrive to his house and treat him like shit. They seriously don’t care about this guy at all, and they’re supposed to save his life. >
  
  The cops, IMO, were helping.  When that Paramedic slams him @23:00.... I knew shit was downhill. >
  
  Didn't even have to make it to the slam to know shit wasn't right. The lady yelling at him to sit up, saying quit acting stupid, yelling I am not playing around tonight in his face, all before they ever even do anything was horrible. Disgusting treatment of another human, let alone one that is clearly in desperate need of help. >
  
  If this person was a chronic alcoholic with deteriorating health issues its quite possible that he was well known to the police and EMTs. I'm sure they were extremely exasperated with continued calls to help him only to see him not change his lifestyle at all.
  Unfortunately it ends up jading people to the insidious nature of the disease that is addiction, and people are treated as though they are simply suffering from a moral failure rather than the genuine comprehensive health issue that is chronic addiction.
  IMO this may explain their behavior, but I'd be careful to point out that explaining it is in no way the same as justifying it. >
  
  Then those people shouldn't be in the field they are in. I 100% understand, I've been in human services my whole adult life. It is really hard and exhausting  to give more of a shit about people than they give about themselves....but that's the job. And being an EMT is no different. You know you're going to get calls for addicts and people who do not care if they live or die, but you gotta take care of them just like anyone else. If you allow yourself to get to a point where you stop seeing people as people, it's time to look for a new job. >
  
  Definitely time to look for a new job I agree.  But if only it were so easy to find a new job.  Especially if your life's career was in the field. 
  Now you gotta look into schools, figure out a schedule, balance it with the 12 hr rotating shifts and mandatory overtime along with being mentally and physically exhausted after the jobs done.  You also gotta look to change your whole livelihood as far as finding another job that pays the same or more than your current one so that you can keep up with the payments for your mortgage, family, and/or rent.  If not, time to find a cheaper place which is a whole nother thing. >
  
  As a paramedic, I'm quite okay with them getting charged! 
  Cruel Bullshit like this literally kills people and is why EMS has no respect within the medical community. >
  
  Personally, I agree with charging them but I don't think they should have been charged with first degree murder.  How are they going to prove they intentionally murdered him with premeditation, unless there are some secret texts or social media posts they found discussing/planning it?
  We don't have all the details, but from the bodycam footage it seems like after much standing around and watching him struggle they got him flopping onto the gurney face down and they were too lazy, careless or crazy to reposition him.  They did not position him face down, though, so it seems like they qshould have been charged with 3rd degree murder--unintentional murder committed during an eminently dangerous act by someone with a depraved mind or without regard to human life.
  Edit: EMTs on this thread seem to think there must have been malice involved so could be 2nd degree.  The problem with 1st degree remains proving that they knew (not just that they should have known) it would lead to serious injury or death. >
  
  This isn’t law and order. You don’t need intent to kill for a first degree charge.
  Edit: you need to know that what you’re doing could reasonably kill someone. That is not the same as intent to kill them. It varies by state but this applies to most. >
  
  
  "compressional and positional asphyxia due to prone facedown restraint on a paramedic transportation cot/stretcher by tightened straps across back and lower body in the setting of lethargy and underlying chronic alcoholism."
  
  Does that mean one would not reasonably expect a person to die just from being strapped down in that way in the absence of those complicating factors? >
  
  Yes, anyone who’s strapped so tightly to a surface that their ribs can not expand will die >
  
  If "the setting of lethargy and underlying chronic alcoholism" were irrelevant it seems like it would not have been mentioned in the coroner's report. If it's relevant it seems to provide a defense against 720 ILCS 5/9-1(a)(2): "he or she knows that such acts create a strong probability of death or great bodily harm to that individual or another" >
  
  If your lungs can’t expand, you die, period. A perfectly healthy person would have died in his position. >
  
  Paramedic here. We don't carry patients prone (facing down), we carry them supine (facing up, or semi-sitting). Straps are necessary for safety/transport. The video is just cruel. This is clear malpractice. >
  
  Jesus Christ… I’m sure it gets tiring to deal with addicts day in, day out, but if you’re at the point of not treating them professionally, with compassion… it’s time to find a new line of work. >
  
  My buddy is EMS in Tacoma. Literally all he does is respond to homeless camps for drug related calls. He's getting out of it soon because he signed up to help people, not deal with violent crackheads 14 hours a day. >
  
  Likely shit pay as well. >
  
  I was mortified when I realized what my EMT buddies were being paid, even with overtime, in Oklahoma. That job was burning them all out because in order to get ahead they absolutely had to work overtime each week. They’ve all switched to much better careers at this point fortunately. 
  What I’m describing above is depressing, but then you think about what exactly they dealt with under these conditions on a day to day basis and it definitely becomes straight up evil that they are so underpaid in my opinion. Dead children, crackheads, grieving family members, morbidly obese and or mentally ill hoarders, Covid exposure during the height of the lockdown, and much much more. Nursing definitely sounds like a career that burns you out too, but I guess atleast their pay keeps you from being absolutely paycheck to paycheck.
  Sorry for the long rant. I think EMTs and Paramedics don’t get as much public appreciation as Fire or Police and they should. >
  
  As an RN, EMTs and paramedics are my heroes. What they do day and day out is honestly just unimaginable. Nurses get burned out too but the difference is there are so many different fields for a nurse to work in that if one has you ready to jump off a parking garage you can find a job somewhere else.  When working in the ICU made me passively suicidal I switched to working in the operating room and I’m much happier now. EMTs and paramedics don’t really have that kind of mobility. What they’re being paid is criminal. >
  
  Having been both an RN and an EMT, if the paychecks were even in the same ballpark, I'd still be in an ambulance. No question.