comment: >
  
  
  Muslim women describe feeling naked without their headcovers
  
  And you think childhood indoctrination, familial/societal pressure hasn't played a role in fixing up an image in their own mind of an "ideal" woman and now they are probably restricting themselves because of that. 
  I'm not saying there isn't even a single woman who likes to wear niquab/burqa but that doesn't mean these are not symbols of patriarchy and subjugation of women. Indoctrination is a powerful tool. The indoctrinated police themselves, that's the beauty of it. Fear of an invisible, most powerful, omnipresent eye is very potent.
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  I'm going to address the specific point  "it's not about Islam"
  It's absolutely about Islam.  The culture, values, and ideals in Islam support that pattern of behavior, and we can have a separate, more nuanced discussion about that if you want, but to take Islam out of the equation entirely is wrong in most cases.
  Remove the specifics from your statement and it reads "if your partner is upholding a belief, and you are upholding that belief in a differing way or to a differing level, then it isn't about the belief"
  My wife definitely only goes to church because she's Christian.  I don't, but I haven't abandoned my faith either.  Is it fair to say that my wife going to church not about Christianity?  What if she dresses modestly for the same reason?  What if she dresses very modestly? 
  Again, I'm not arguing the morality or consistency of Islam or any of the culture/behaviors surrounding it, only that Islam is a meaningful factor in the lives and behavior of women who routinely wear clothes associated with Islam. >
  
  I think in general you are right, but it seems that OP is implying coercion or force from the hudbands. With that implication, I don't think your scenario applies because you aren't making your wife go to church while you stay home. >
  
  OP is implying that, but why should we expect Muslim men to be more involved in how their wives keep their faith than any other religion is?  
  Moreover, I think that the comparison is broken since the quaran has different requirements for how men and women dress.  Men are supposed to be covered "knee to navel" and must wear a beard.  Women have different requirements based on which exact religion within Islam they follow.  It would be different if OP was talking about men forcing women to uphold their faith while failing to do so themselves, but that is not the case in any of OPs examples. >
  
  Hmm...fair >
  
  Have I changed/expanded your view in a meaningful way? >
  
  No, I don't have data backed a response to the initial question. My mind isn't changed. >
  
  Fair enough.  It's been interesting talking to you.  Happy holidays >
  
  Happy holidays :) >
  
  Unless the woman is choosing to dress that way.
  Edit: so some of my neighbors are Muslim. Daughters dress in secular American fashion; shorts in warmer weather, no head covering, exposed shoulders at times. The mother still chooses to wear head covering about half the time and the rest of the time not. It's obviously her choice because 1) she's my friend and we've talked enough I know she's making the choice for herself and 2) it would make no sense if her husband was being a domineering asshat towards her only half the time and none at all to their teenage daughters. All those people commenting that no Muslim women could possibly choose to cover her head of her own volition are bigoted af. >
  
  Agreed but consent can get very blurry when a lot of these first or second generation immigrant communities are involved. The family pressure, risk of ostracism, and the highly patriarchal structure are all major factors of the choice imho. 
  If they’re single or out from under their fathers thumb and still choose to do it then yes of course. >
  
  societal pressure will always exist. There's societal pressure for women to keep their hair long, to wear makeup, to shave their legs, to dress in an exposing way or else be called "frumpy" for example. 
  And we can go even further to say there's societal pressure to make people wear shoes. Shirts. Pants. Literally anything. >
  
  Usually your family doesn’t threaten to disown you and cut you off if you don’t shave your legs. >
  
  statistically speaking, usually muslim women are also not threatened like this if they do not veil. however it does happen, and it’s important to talk about 
  further, your point was about social pressure encouraging certain bodily/fashion choices. therefore the issue is in the pressure itself. if you think shaved legs are okay because some women don’t face backlash for being natural, then you must also accept that some women don’t face backlash for not veiling >
  
  I’m…not sure I agree. Pressure is just force, it’s words. It’s the relationship to the speaker that matters. That’s why I’m confused why you keep bringing up the word societal. I was trying to hone in on the relationships. >
  
  I have a pretty diverse workplace and I have colleagues who are Canadian Muslim women, who live alone and they won't even appear on Teams from their house without their hair covered. The most chill lady I knew about it was a Bangladeshi-born Muslim woman who would just tuck her hair up under a toque if it was just going to be me (a woman) and her--again-- on teams from her apartment she lived in alone in Canada. Who is pressuring her in that scenario? Like, I'm also a woman, from what I understand she doesn't technically need to even cover up for me. She chooses to because it feels right to her. She keeps her camera off in almost all meetings, and if you try to video call her, she'll call you back in like 5 minutes after she gets her headscarf on our gets her hair tucked securely. 
  When I've asked about it (I haven't often, it's none of my business what people choose to wear and why), Muslim women describe feeling naked without their headcovers. Just like some women won't leave their house without doing their makeup or wearing a bra or a wig or whatever.