comment: >
  
  The person I was replying to was the one who was talking about brainwashing.
context: /u/nowlan101 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
  All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
  Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
  ^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards >
  
  I'm going to address the specific point  "it's not about Islam"
  It's absolutely about Islam.  The culture, values, and ideals in Islam support that pattern of behavior, and we can have a separate, more nuanced discussion about that if you want, but to take Islam out of the equation entirely is wrong in most cases.
  Remove the specifics from your statement and it reads "if your partner is upholding a belief, and you are upholding that belief in a differing way or to a differing level, then it isn't about the belief"
  My wife definitely only goes to church because she's Christian.  I don't, but I haven't abandoned my faith either.  Is it fair to say that my wife going to church not about Christianity?  What if she dresses modestly for the same reason?  What if she dresses very modestly? 
  Again, I'm not arguing the morality or consistency of Islam or any of the culture/behaviors surrounding it, only that Islam is a meaningful factor in the lives and behavior of women who routinely wear clothes associated with Islam. >
  
  I think in general you are right, but it seems that OP is implying coercion or force from the hudbands. With that implication, I don't think your scenario applies because you aren't making your wife go to church while you stay home. >
  
  OP is implying that, but why should we expect Muslim men to be more involved in how their wives keep their faith than any other religion is?  
  Moreover, I think that the comparison is broken since the quaran has different requirements for how men and women dress.  Men are supposed to be covered "knee to navel" and must wear a beard.  Women have different requirements based on which exact religion within Islam they follow.  It would be different if OP was talking about men forcing women to uphold their faith while failing to do so themselves, but that is not the case in any of OPs examples. >
  
  Hmm...fair >
  
  Have I changed/expanded your view in a meaningful way? >
  
  No, I don't have data backed a response to the initial question. My mind isn't changed. >
  
  Fair enough.  It's been interesting talking to you.  Happy holidays >
  
  Happy holidays :) >
  
  Unless the woman is choosing to dress that way.
  Edit: so some of my neighbors are Muslim. Daughters dress in secular American fashion; shorts in warmer weather, no head covering, exposed shoulders at times. The mother still chooses to wear head covering about half the time and the rest of the time not. It's obviously her choice because 1) she's my friend and we've talked enough I know she's making the choice for herself and 2) it would make no sense if her husband was being a domineering asshat towards her only half the time and none at all to their teenage daughters. All those people commenting that no Muslim women could possibly choose to cover her head of her own volition are bigoted af. >
  
  Agreed but consent can get very blurry when a lot of these first or second generation immigrant communities are involved. The family pressure, risk of ostracism, and the highly patriarchal structure are all major factors of the choice imho. 
  If they’re single or out from under their fathers thumb and still choose to do it then yes of course. >
  
  societal pressure will always exist. There's societal pressure for women to keep their hair long, to wear makeup, to shave their legs, to dress in an exposing way or else be called "frumpy" for example. 
  And we can go even further to say there's societal pressure to make people wear shoes. Shirts. Pants. Literally anything. >
  
  Usually your family doesn’t threaten to disown you and cut you off if you don’t shave your legs. >
  
  statistically speaking, usually muslim women are also not threatened like this if they do not veil. however it does happen, and it’s important to talk about 
  further, your point was about social pressure encouraging certain bodily/fashion choices. therefore the issue is in the pressure itself. if you think shaved legs are okay because some women don’t face backlash for being natural, then you must also accept that some women don’t face backlash for not veiling >
  
  I’m…not sure I agree. Pressure is just force, it’s words. It’s the relationship to the speaker that matters. That’s why I’m confused why you keep bringing up the word societal. I was trying to hone in on the relationships. >
  
  I have a pretty diverse workplace and I have colleagues who are Canadian Muslim women, who live alone and they won't even appear on Teams from their house without their hair covered. The most chill lady I knew about it was a Bangladeshi-born Muslim woman who would just tuck her hair up under a toque if it was just going to be me (a woman) and her--again-- on teams from her apartment she lived in alone in Canada. Who is pressuring her in that scenario? Like, I'm also a woman, from what I understand she doesn't technically need to even cover up for me. She chooses to because it feels right to her. She keeps her camera off in almost all meetings, and if you try to video call her, she'll call you back in like 5 minutes after she gets her headscarf on our gets her hair tucked securely. 
  When I've asked about it (I haven't often, it's none of my business what people choose to wear and why), Muslim women describe feeling naked without their headcovers. Just like some women won't leave their house without doing their makeup or wearing a bra or a wig or whatever. >
  
  
  Muslim women describe feeling naked without their headcovers
  
  And you think childhood indoctrination, familial/societal pressure hasn't played a role in fixing up an image in their own mind of an "ideal" woman and now they are probably restricting themselves because of that. 
  I'm not saying there isn't even a single woman who likes to wear niquab/burqa but that doesn't mean these are not symbols of patriarchy and subjugation of women. Indoctrination is a powerful tool. The indoctrinated police themselves, that's the beauty of it. Fear of an invisible, most powerful, omnipresent eye is very potent. >
  
  I already said that there can be, has to be, some women who do it of their own volition but that doesn't change the fact that it is a sign of oppression and subjugation. Women in Iran are getting arrested and killed because they don't want to wear niquab or burqua. So we can't point to a few women living in free world and say 'oh it's just a personal choice and not oppression'
  People in India used to burn widows in funeral pyre of their husband. I'm sure we can find a few cases where they did it coz they actually didn't want to live without their husband. That is not a proof that it was not a horrible practice just to subjugate women, sold to them as tradition too. >
  
  Except for this little part from your own link
  
  It is haram to imitate the polytheists and unbelievers in their manner of dress
  
  So if a lot of unbelievers are wearing shorts, and you know that they do, then I’m not sure this answer is slam dunk you think it is lol >
  
  If that's how youre gonna interpret it, I don't think you've thought this through. This would prohibit Muslims from wearing T shirts, fully sleeved shirts, actually, any shirts, jeans, pants, jackets, hoodies, dresses, coats and almost every clothing you have seen in your life. Like you said, if a lot of unbelievers are wearing it, it's forbidden. Is that what you think that phrase means? >
  
  Sure, same way some of the more obscure commandments from god get ignored by Christians in favor of the big 10. Selective interpretation exist in all three big religions >
  
  So I’m not familiar with the religion (Islam) too much but as with what you’ve said all religions have selective interpretations, isn’t the main and most widely held interpretation of the line you mentioned talking about religious garments? You interpret it as they aren’t allowed to wear anything if someone else wears it, while 99% of followers interpret it as any different specific religious clothing. It seems a little unfair to say because religions allow for different interpretations you can read the line anyway you want when it’s obviously interpreted differently by the large majority of followers. 
  Not exactly trying to change your view but I saw this mentioned elsewhere in this thread and you haven’t responded about it. >
  
  
  Because there’s definitely some rules in the Quran on what “good” Muslim men should look like and I’m pretty sure there isn’t a line in there about crocs, Hollister t-shirts and acid washed jeans. 
  
  How does that outfit not follow the Qur'anox requirements for men? Men and women have to cover their awrah. A t shirt and jeans does that for a Man. I.E. covers from their naval to knees  and their shoulders. I'm your title you use the example of shorts and if the shorts are too short then they don't cover the awrah and that is a a problem, also if they were to wear jeans that didn't cover their behind that would also be a problem. But where do you get the idea "western" clothes that cover the appropriate parts are prohibited? >
  
  But by that logic Muslim men should be able to go shirtless in public too. The problem is the awrah is the very minimum requirement, but Islam clearly says men and women should both still dress modestly yet in these cases the men do not. They wear tight revealing clothes thar show off their body, muscles, etc.
  So many of these men even post thirst pics, shirtless content, heck even full on underwear content on Instagram while you see the women in their lives are fully covered. >
  
  Or, you live in a country where there are powerful people who selectively enforce dress standards. Those powerful people might believe both men and women should dress a certain way (and do so themselves), but only enforce on the wider society the dress standards for women. Perhaps because they want to court the expertise and investment of foreign cultures which won't tolerate every gender being oppressed in such a way.
  Under those circumstances the man wearing the western style clothing isn't necessarily a hypocrite because while they may not care what the women wear, the morality police do. And the morality police operate under the direction of some old religious leader who themselves wear garb as prescribed by their religious texts, but doesn't make the religious police enforce it on men because without foreign talent their country would just be a pack of violent goat herders. >
  
  Agreed. But I think the husbands/bf’s should try to match whatever the minimum modesty level their women are forced to wear in solidarity though >
  
  Have you asked women who are subject to modesty codes whether that feels like solidarity to them? >
  
  Do you imagine I’d get some sort of consensus out of millions of different women? I’m speaking to some smaller principles I feel are important. If others don’t follow them that’s fine. 
  But there’s nothing wrong with me for having them and some opinions. >
  
  So you can imagine that different modest-dressing women might feel differently, but you feel certain that all husbands of such women are imposing this dress code on their wives out of control? >
  
  I agree, but this is not necessarily a clear cut issue.
  In Muslim countries, where women are being harassed and killed for even accidentally exposing too much, there's no question; this is fucked up, shameful, pathetic, and unambiguously wrong.
  In western societies, where the law and predominant culture places no such restrictions on women, I assume that the vast majority of those who dress this way are making the choice on their own behalf. Assuming that such clothing is objectively less comfortable (probably true, but I don't know), one could argue (and I would) that nobody in their right mind would make such a choice if they were under no pressure at all. What you refer to as "controlling women" could range from a singular, subtle and momentary facial expression that could plausibly (but not necessarily) be interpreted as disapproval, to constant, consistent, explicit and demonstrably credible death threats. The former scenario is clearly not as bad as the latter, and regardless of her reason, any pressure we place on a woman to make a different choice only amplifies the harm. Unless she asks for feedback and/or support, the best thing we can do is mind our own business.
  In a perfect world, there would be no such thing, but I think peer pressure is a part of human nature (and the nature of social animals in general). I think it may be an adaptive trait (an artifact of evolution by natural selection), and it is probably necessary in order for us to learn and thrive and live together in peace. I think we are probably stuck with it. It isn't always beneficial, obviously, and sometimes the cost seems maddeningly pointless and stupid, but it is what it is, and our flaws are part of what makes us beautiful. All we can do is embrace our differences, question what doesn't make sense, and do our best to minimise any harm. To this end, I try to remember that everyone is human, and all behaviour is normal human behaviour; I don't have all the relevant information to understand anyone's behaviour (including my own), so I ask questions, but try not to judge.
  I'm not religious (and I was not raised with religion), so to me, it seems insane that anyone would modify their behaviour to comply with a bunch of arbitrary rules, based on what is essentially a fairy tale. However, I acknowledge that I am doing the same with respect to secular fairy tales that are so ingrained in my culture that I don't even think to question why. For example, the concept of money, and all the pain we put ourselves through to earn it so that we can buy a bunch of crap that we don't really even want, but feel like we need in order to be whole, successful, happy, or acceptable in the eyes of others. This is a way bigger deal than wearing a burqa on a hot day. It's destroying the planet, and I know it's insane, and yet I can't seem to stop buying into it. And to be clear, I obviously HAVE questioned this fairy tale, but I used this example because I think most people will understand my point and agree with it. I have other examples that are more unreasonable, and more harmful, but so ingrained in our culture that it can take years of arguing to convince intelligent people that there is anything to question at all. I have bought into enough insane fairy tales to know with near certainty that there are others that I haven't even thought to question. So, while I don't understand what the fuck these women are thinking, I know that they are not less reasonable, or capable, or fully autonomous than me. They are me, but with slightly different cultural norms, and I wholeheartedly endorse their right to make whatever weird choices they like, regardless of my own personal ethical concerns about their motivations.
  I too have a problem with blatant hypocrisy. If you have a problem with blatant hypocrisy, you should recognise that the same blatant hypocrisy exists in secular western societies, and it would be blatant hypocrisy to point the finger at religion while atheists exhibit the same stupid behaviour. In western cultures, it is often illegal and almost always socially unacceptable for women to go topless in contexts where it is perfectly acceptable for men to do the same. This is no different and no less egregious. While I value modesty and feel disgust towards immodest people, I find the concept of modesty itself to be egregious; this is a blatant example of hypocrisy in myself, and the cognitive dissonance is an ever present plague on my soul. Once again, the best I can do is challenge my own prejudice and aim to minimise harm; I am in no position to judge.
  The situation in Iran is different; women are clearly being oppressed and they are asking for support. Where this is the case, I'm of a mind to liberate them by force and prevent their oppressors from having any contact with women ever again. I don't pretend to know what's best and I'd take my lead from those who are on the ground, experiencing this oppression first hand, but it would make me happy to watch those men live out the rest of their lives alone. It would make me happy to see them die without ever having an opportunity to create another generation of boys and girls to poison and harrass with their toxic ideology. Technically, I don't believe they deserve to suffer, because they can't help being brainwashed, but I'm not about to waste my time defending them when the most practical, efficient, and utilitarian option is to eradicate them from the face of the planet. Fuck them.
  Maybe you already agree with me, but I see the issue as more complicated than what your post conveyed. >
  
  See I thought like this...and then when I was in college there's a huge middle eastern population in a lot of my classes and they are cool af and they are in college in a dorm...meaning they are away from families and won't be caught...and they still wore it because they are devout like Christians are... >
  
  This double standard exists because the double standard is baked into most of these religions. So you’re saying you’re fine with people practicing their religion and not trying to bash the religion, but really that is where the problem is >
  
  Should I point out the fact that Burqa and Niqab are not actually hijab? You don't necessarily need those for hijab. I am a man, but as far as I can understand without being an Islamic scholar, Hijab is more of a set of requirements for both genders. It's the same for both with the exception being women have to cover their hair. What you are talking about is something that used to happen years ago. Nowadays it's an extreme edge case. If it still happened to be as common as you think, every fourth or fifth woman would be 'wrapped up like a lollipop' as you so eloquently put it. The case you are referring to is a rare edge case which happens mostly in extremely conservative households. Most muslim women wrap a simple shawl and call it a day. >
  
  Hmm I'm not sure I agree. I agree with you that, in a sense, the rule is innately sexist because it applies differently (and more minimally) to men than women. However, it is also true that male bodies are just treated differently in society than female bodies. Probably due to differences in libido and power between the sexes. I genuinely do think that women who are dressed in a way that is considered revealing, whatever that means in their culture, are likely to be taken less seriously as well as encounter more unwanted sexual attention. It's unfair, but we have to make decisions based on what society is, not what we think it should be. >
  
  What about women in societies wear toplessness is normal? >
  
  I mean, if that's the norm it's the norm. But in societies where it's not the norm, going out topless would probably attract a lot of unwanted sexual attention. When you break the social norms of a culture, your deviance from that norm communicates something to others. >
  
  When it’s not the norm, going out topless is more offensive. I don’t think unwanted sexual attention factors into it as much in half of the world. I live on a Muslim island in Southern Thailand and going topless would get me death stares, not sex stares. It would be extremely offensive to the culture here. >
  
  Everyone saying “if it’s her choice it’s all good”… what about the vast majority of the world where it’s not her choice? >
  
  Then that clearly needs to be addressed, but that doesn't change the fact that for the individual for whom it is a choice.
  The cmv is 'if your wife is wearing a burqa or niqab', not 'if the majority of people wearing a burqa or niqab'.
  I don't think it's reasonable to expect women to overthrow systemic pressures across the world before they're allowed to dress as they choose, because their choice is the same as the compelled dress elsewhere. If someone wears a dress, they're not giving implicit support to communities which bar women from wearing trousers, nor are they necessarily wearing that dress due to social pressure.
  As for whether it's a free choice... Not necessarily, sure. Facing social consequences is entirely possible. But many women don't face social pressure to that degree. There might be an emotional pressure of upbringing (divorced from present time social consequences) or the pressure of habit. But I think that falls under a very messy category. Yeah, that probably has an impact on decision making. But if we hold everyone's decisions to the same standard, then I think we'd have to conclude that making free choices is impossible. >
  
  “Needs to be addressed” 
  With bombshells? The arsenal of democracy? >
  
  I don't know, I don't have all the answers. Not violent means, I strongly hope. That tends to kill the people who are the intended beneficiaries, and who may well not have asked for assistance. >
  
  I think that if the man is forcing her to wear the burqa and niqab, that's a problem, and most of the time when people in western countries see a Muslim husband and wife walking down the street and the woman is in full Muslim attire, they have this assumption that she's only wearing this because her husband forced her too, and she lacks agency. In actuality, most Muslim women choose to dress like this and aren't forced to. I'm not saying there are cases where husbands are pricks who force this, I'm just saying a lot of Muslim women, actually, most, are more comfortable rocking the hijab or burqa or niqab because that's their culture and they have a love and attachment for it. 
  I come from a Muslim family and 90% of the women I grew up with who are related to me dress in Islamic attire and literally they all just prefer that. My cousin is about 40 years old and her husband is in his mid-40s. 
  She literally wears a full hijab with the full thobe and everything every time she's outside the house. She also prays 5 times day, and follows the religion strictly.
  Her husband doesn't dress in Islamic attire. You'll often see him walking around in his soccer outfits while he's with her while she's rocking her attire, and he doesn't give a shit that she's dressed that way. He doesn't force it upon her at all, in fact, I don't even think he prays. But if you saw them out together on a summer day, you'd see him rocking some shorts that go slightly above his kneecaps with his favorite soccer jersey on and her in the hijab and assume he's a hypocritical asshole who wants to control her. When in reality, she just wears what she wants and if she wasn't dressed that way, he wouldn't give af.
  Let me tell you something, my friend. Westerners always assume that Islam is a religion where men just oppress women and women all want to be out here rocking short shorts with their cleavages out like they do in Canada, UK and U.S.A. This is all BS propaganda that's been pushed by the western media. 
  You wanna know the truth?
  Women in Muslim countries for the most part are a lot more conservative with how they dress even when they're fuckin atheists. I literally know so many women from my home country that are straight-up atheists and agnostics, but they just like the Arabian swag. On top of that, the others are extremely attached to their Muslim culture, even more so than the men actually. This is true in most places because women for the most part tend to be the cultural carriers. 
  I'll tell you something I noticed about Muslim women and western women. This is from dating women who are Muslim and not Muslim and growing up with both.
  If it's 10pm and i'm going to mcdonalds run and I'm taking my muslim ex with me, or my cousin with me, or my mom with me, they quickly hurry to find their cutest looking hijab and take 10 mins to put it on properly and try a bunch on till they find the one they want. I'm not telling them to put it on, in fact i'm even annoyed that they're taking so long and woulda even preferred it if they just came to the car wearing whatever they were wearing when we were chilling on the couch. But she wants to do what she wants to do so whatever right.
  Now if i'm with an ex that's western and were going to a late night mcdonalds run, she runs off to the bathroom and decides to put some make up on, and there's nothing I can do about that.
  The same way alot of girls in the west just love the aesthetic freedom and comfort of rocking something like make-up, that's actually exactly how muslim women feel about their hijab and other muslim attire. In fact, they see it as an extension of their aesthetic freedom.
  Exit your western bubble and check out other places. >
  
  My mom is Mormon. The women used to have to wear veils in the temple. They stopped having the women wear their veils I guess. My mom called my sister and told her that she felt like she was losing her identity.  Maybe some women like it? >
  
  Maybe she felt like it was her identity because it was imposed on her since birth? >
  
  Well that's kind of how identity and self form, right? Socialisation. But that's the same for everyone. Muslim women who choose to wear a burqa or niqab (specifically referring only to women who know that they face no social or legal consequences for opting not to do so) shouldn't be held to a higher standard of accepting a choice as free, just because their choice might feel uncomfortable or inexplicable to us. >
  
  I don't think you can call imposing something on someone "socialisation". In OPs case, his mother was literally forced to wear a veil to enter the temple. 
  Socialisation is defined as "the process of learning to behave in a way that is acceptable to society"... that's entirely different than imposing rules on someone. 
  Socialisation is children learning from their environment that it's frowned upon for boys to wear pink. Forcing your child to wear a blue jumper everyday isn't socialisation. 
  And even if we want to call it socialization, it doesn't mean that the societal standards being taught are acceptable. Unless you're willing to also call female circumcision and Bachi bazi "socialization". >
  
  
  "the process of learning to behave in a way that is acceptable to society"
  
  I would absolutely say that standards of dress in religious buildings falls under this. Society might be smaller than 'every member of the nation', but for their mother's smaller society, that was a cultural norm that she was socialised into. 
  No, forcing a child to wear a blue jumper isn't socialisation, but that's because it's not an agreed upon norm. Forcing or compelling American boys not to wear dresses is, though. There are few outliers to the social norm that dresses = girl's clothing.
  
  Even if we want to call it socialization, it doesn't mean that the societal standards being taught are acceptable. 
  
  I completely agree. 'Socialisation' is a descriptive label, not a values judgement. But because she was socialised that way, when the norms changed to mean that her habits became unacceptable, she felt a sense of loss. At that point her dress, previously normative, became transgressive. And she then felt social pressure not to veil before entering the temple. But two wrongs don't make a right. We shouldn't say 'well you were forced to wear that before, so it's now okay to force you not to wear it'. Why not let her (and everyone) choose what to wear? At least at first, yeah, people might follow their upbringing. But seeing the other options, or seeing that different choices might suit the climate better, or whatever, might change people's minds. Or no. Ultimately I don't think that my own moral values should determine whether other people's dress is freely chosen or not. 
  
  Unless you're willing to also call female circumcision "socialization"
  
  "the process of learning to behave in a way that is acceptable to society"
  I mean... Yeah? Unless you're saying that it's a coincidence that there are countries where the rate of circumcision is 90%+, I'd say that it's absolutely socialised behaviour. That doesn't mean it's given a pass. It just means that society perpetuates it as a practice, and likely in a far more complex way than one sided compulsion of women by men. So, if you want to change that behaviour, you have to do more than ban it and shout 'you're free!'. That doesn't undo the socialisation.
  [not familiar enough with Bachi bazi to comment] >
  
  It looks like we completely disagree on the definitions which would make it hard for us to discuss, so I'll leave it at that. Thanks for the civil discussion though, it's interesting for sure. >
  
  Let her wear what she likes >
  
  Do you really think she likes to wear a burqa when it's 40 degrees and her husband wears a shirt and shorts? >
  
  It also protects your skin from the sun mate. People who live in arid and high sunlight environments often wear long sleeves and bandanas
  In a place I have experience with like central Vietnam. It’s far hotter to wear a singlet and shorts than it is to put a jacket over your clothes and masking your face >
  
  It's not so much that your conclusion is wrong, but rather the base assumption. All the religious rules of every religion^* exist for control, so seeing rules for control result in control or behavior of control is wontfix: works as intended.
  It's basically another version of sex shaming women to implicitly give men power by removing procreative freedom from women
  * if you're a theist, feel free to replace this with "every religion in history except yours" for the purposes of this CMV >
  
  It’s not black and white probably.
  But to me, someone who thinks sunshine on the skin is not only healthy but necessary for optimal function of our body, I just feel sorry for these women. 
  Whether they like it, hate it, gives them identity, dignity or they feel humiliated, it doesn’t matter.
  In the end, I don’t think it’s healthy to hide from sunlight your whole life. I wonder if someone already did a study on this subject… 
  Edit: typos >
  
  I suppose they could say the same  about you. You’re “jealous” and wish you had such a beautiful pious wife. 
  But realistically if you are part of a religion that has openly committed genocide against women and LGBT people globally, 
  If you are part of a regime that very deliberately targets women and girls for violence 
  If you ascribe to a structure of power that reverses a hundred years of work on feminism 
  And you’re only getting away with it because you are ironically relying on the overly good graces of a society where all you have to say is “people are targeting me” to get away with wanton acts of criminal violence as well as violations of the human rights code….
  No. It’s not about your right to religion. 
  I have known, befriended and loved a number of Muslim people. Not as a white person who they placate, but as a brown woman who they can be honest with. I have questioned government agencies who want to “save Muslim women living under Taliban rule” by resettling predominantly young men who they can use as low wage workers. 
  If ignoring peoples religions and cultures is “racist”, why are the schools celebrating Ramadan but not Diwali? Why are Muslim students allowed to pray 3X a day but Christian students are disciplined for praying at school. Why are Asian students almost completely ignored, culturally? 
  Most Muslim men are good people. Most of their wives are making a choice to wear hijab, niqab, or Burqa. I have never felt scared of a Muslim man the way I feel scared of white men. Never once. But I have never lived in Afghanistan. And I know that 75% of the time, it isn’t women and girls we are saving FROM the crisis in Afghanistan. It is anyone who might protect them. 
  It’s about politics. The government wants to support business by bringing in low wage workers, and undermine feminism while promoting racism while bringing in men they know will have views that support their agendas.. 
  They are knowingly taking in people with “taliban ties” whose assets they can easily control.
  These aren’t just clothes. And it’s not about individual attitudes. Indian women are targeted for wearing sari. Sikh men are targeted for wearing turban. Persian girls are called “weird” for wearing Chador and Chinese girls are made fun of for celebrating the new year in February. 
  Muslim women fleeing taliban rule to feel safe in this country are being told nobody will help them because their oppressors are protected by constitutional law but….here’s the important part….THEY ARE NOT equally protected. 
  The problem isn’t that Muslim man are generally and inherently bad people. They are not. The Americas are specifically and knowingly bringing in young male radicalized muslims to “fix them” and ignoring any relational issues they have with women. 
  Look if I said my father was abusing me for years I’m pretty sure the police would actually do something
  They wouldn’t say “sorry, your dad has religious protections that state he is allowed to abuse you” and wait until I was dead to intervene. 
  And if I knew my father could do anything he wanted, and I had been raised in that belief, no answer you got from me about whether I wanted to wear hijab or not would be the truth. 
  No matter how loudly you scream “bigot” at people, especially people who are currently protesting oppressive religious rule, it doesn’t change the fact that we are openly and actively oppressing women by making this the one religious community we protect, not because we believe in freedom of religion, but because we are afraid of them. >
  
  I’m a Muslim man who wears niqab, and this is one of the reasons I veil too! I don’t believe modesty is just for women. The Quran tells both genders to dress modestly, and while it doesn’t prescribe a specific garment, I think the niqab is perfect for both genders in maintaining modesty. I know I’m vastly in the minority for wearing niqab as a guy, but Muslim men have worn headscarves and face veils throughout history, and some groups still do. I even wrote a quora article about Muslim male veiling! 
  All in all, I believe both genders need to dress modestly to a similar degree, and it’s rather hypocritical for men to dress in clothing that you described while the women wear niqab. I (in my own personal interpretation) believe men should also wear clothing equivalent to niqab (cover their head and face). >
  
  
  Because there’s definitely some rules in the Quran on what “good” Muslim men should look like and I’m pretty sure there isn’t a line in there about crocs, Hollister t-shirts and acid washed jeans.
  
  You're argument falls apart on an assumption here.
  Islamic rules for the clothing of men and women are indeed different. The double standard of Muslims men wearing a tshirt and jeans while women wearing niqabs is pretty consistent with their belief and not really hypocritical. Is it right/wrong? That's a different discussion... and part of the reason why I left Islam honestly. >
  
  Maybe she's just cold? >
  
  In your example, It’s possible that, that particular women is more religious than husband, it’s also possible that the husband, as you said, is hypocrite; there are many possibilities. In any case it’s none of your business highlighting who’s hypocrite or who should be wearing what. You should stop worrying about what people, including Muslim men, wear. You should also stop dictating what constitutes hypocrisy. Everyone is a hypocrite in their own way, shape or form. >
  
  Isn’t that a lame answer? Ignore it?
  There’s a very robust criticism and acknowledged flaws in the US over Christianity. It’s why gay marriage is currently a nonissue to most Christian’s. You could argue that r/atheism is a whole sub devoted to it. >
  
  
  There’s a very robust criticism and acknowledged flaws in the US over Christianity. 
  
  But not in your argument. In your original post, are you criticizing men at large, with Muslim men as mere examples? Or, you criticizing Islam? Or, something else?
  Your post doesn’t make a concrete point, one way or the other; it just leaves the floor open for all sorts of discussion. Its a very typical post of an attention seeking troll. >
  
  If you spend 5 minutes in an actual Islamic nation, you’ll see other than covering their hair and face (which not all women do even) men are covered. I saw nary a forearm in Morroco, Egypt, Jordan or Dubai when I recently visited. And in the Oil nations, they wear a head to toe robe often. 
  So I agree with this CMV and I think Islam also agrees with the CMV. Modesty is a requirement for both men and women & men who do not pursue it are not adhering to their religious teachings. 
  The ONLY point of contention I’ll make is that sometimes there is a mis-match in religious fervor, where a woman is more committed to Islam than her husband, who might not actually care if she covered. In which case, I don’t think it makes him a hypocrite. He should be allowed to dress comfortably, as she should be. >
  
  I'm from a Muslim country. This is patently false, except for extremely rural & devout areas. Areas that tend to represent a lesser part of the total population, at that. It's very common to see men wearing knee-length shorts or t-shirts in public. Very, very few men wear facial coverings of any kind.
  One could argue that Islam demands modesty from both sexes, but the point of the OP and a critique in this vein is that the modesty required out of women is much more stringent. >
  
  I don’t know where you’re from, but I literally did not see one example of this, I mentioned to my husband several times. And it was HOT. >
  
  I'm from a North African country. Do you realize how insane it is to double down on this point to someone who is actually from this region of the world? It's fantastic you, presumably a vacationer or traveler of some kind, view yourself as a more correct source for how men in Muslim countries often dress than someone who is literally from there. >
  
  Don’t you think you saying that women wearing a burqa or niqab is them being controlled is just you trying to control women that have chosen to wear it. You perceive it to be controlling so you’re telling them they have no autonomy and must not wear it because they can’t want that. 
  Why not just trust they can decide for themselves what they do and don’t wear. This is a tiring argument to hear from anyone not wearing a burqa or niqab themselves. 
  If you yourself wear either and are struggling with this decision that’s a different point and very valid to want to discuss as it’s a complex decision, but I don’t think that’s the case here.. it just feels like you personally need to be “convinced” that these women should be allowed to wear something. That’s you saying unless you understand they aren’t allowed to wear it, ie to me that is controlling behaviour. It isn’t your decision therefore you don’t need to have an opinion beyond “I’ll listen if someone tells me about their POV”
  If you do not wear either then it is not for you to decide whether it is or isn’t their own decision. >
  
  I’m a niqabi woman. First of all it’s super patronising to assume we’re all doing this because some dude is forcing us to. Like there was actual research showing that women in Muslim countries have much more autonomy than the typical white feminist thinks we do. I’ve known niqabis from every walk of life and the vast majority cover because they choose to. You do realise that a lot of us face pushback from our own families right? Muslim women are people with a brain cue shock and horror 
  Secondly you’re right that a Muslim man should dress appropriately. You’re wrong in assuming that the clothes you mentioned don’t meet it. For Muslims we have a concept called “awrah” ie the nakedness of the body. For women it’s her entire body +/- face +/-hands +/- feet depending on the opinion you follow. For men it’s navel to knee. If he’s covered navel to knee Islamically it’s fine 
  If he doesn’t have the islamically prescribed beard sure judge him, but the clothes you don’t really have a leg to stand on >
  
  Individually, you may choose to wear it. Collectively, unless you genuinely believe women in your culture are genetically predisposed to wanting to wear the niqab more than in other cultures, then clearly what's causing the difference between between cultures is cultural pressure. >
  
  I want you to think about this for a second, why exactly do you think the garb of your culture ie women wearing less clothing, is truly the only right way, and a woman’s only true choice, and the garb of Muslim culture is wrong?
  If you’re arguing brainwashing then television and cultural pressures are also very active in the west 
  In Haiti I believe, eating disorders rose very sharply after the television televising western media. How can you prove the dressing style isn’t also a cultural pressure thing? Afterall women are encouraged to dress sexy as well? There is pressure to not be a “prude” as well
  And I would love to see you have a conversation with the women of Muslim countries. I feel like you think they’re awaiting the white bikini clad saviours with open arms. They’d have some choice words about it >
  
  Not to be rude, but this is massive whataboutism. You don't even know what my culture is. I'm an immigrant in a western country myself. But I'll still engage.
  Any tradition/law that is rooted in ideas of women needing to be protected, needing to be controlled, women not being as smart as men, etc is misogynistic.
  There was a time when women were not allowed to vote, and many women defended this. Anti-suffragists, including many women, argued that most women did not want the vote. It's not hard to imagine them thinking it patronising that some people would suggest they likely believe this because of how they were raised or cultural pressures.
  I couldn't care less if 99% of women at the time believed they shouldn't be allowed to vote, believe they should wear the niqab, etc.
  What matters is what's right. The question is whether we believe the niqab is rooted in ideas of sexism/misogyny. Even if the tradition is well meaning, we should also consider how it impacts women in quality of life, ability to form bonds with anyone they wish, etc.
  If you truly believe the niqab isn't rooted in sexism, control, etc, then good for you. I hope you continue to wear it proudly. I find that hard to believe, but I could well be wrong. >
  
  Culture you’re defending then
  Except there’s a flaw in your argument. The argument is for religious garments. Islam isn’t controlling of women, Muslims are. There’s a difference 
  All the arguments you’re making against culture are also pervasive in western culture and in every culture >
  
  
  Islam isn’t controlling of women, Muslims are. There’s a difference
  
  What is the difference? If you adhere to Islam, aren't you Muslim? Then aren't you supposed to dress as prescribed by Quran? What am I missing here? >
  
  Muslims are people. They might not be perfectly following islam when they do x y or z >
  
  But they are following Islam (or at the very least trying), are they not? At what point does someone follow Islam so poorly where they stop being Muslim? >
  
  There actually isn’t any point unless you stop believing in God and his final messenger or start believing in another God. That’s the only official kicking out lol >
  
  To /u/nowlan101, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.
  In our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:
  
  Instead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.
  Steelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.
  Avoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.
  Ask questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.
  
  Please also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track.  Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do. >
  
  Seems like you’re forcing liberalism on Islam, it’s not supposed to be equal so there is no hypocrisy. Men have rules and women have rules. 
  It might be true that some insecure men like Islam for its restrictions on women but it’s also true that most Muslims were probably raised in Islam. >
  
  So islam is sexist. There is the hypocrisy again. How can women follow a religion that hates them by choice? >
  
  There is s difference between having different rules and hating one party. >
  
  This thread did not go how OP thought it would LOL >
  
  What? Most people agree with him because they made valid points, also it has way more upvotes than  comments so most of the people agreed. Are you confused? >
  
  What if the woman wants to dress that way? You think they have no independent thought? You're a bit of a sexist yourself it seems. >
  
  How come no woman dresses like this except muslim women with muslim husbands? Is it really her free will if she does it because her religion forces her to do it? >
  
  Certain opinions within the religion mandate this and most of the women choose to follow it, it’s against the religion to impose it on other people, the Quran says there is no compulsion in Islam. >
  
  It is my understanding that the teachings of Mohammed require their women cover up because their God commands them to do so.  If the woman is faithful to the teachings of Islam, then she will follow those teachings.  The problem is the men requiring their wives or significant others to do this often don’t follow the teachings themselves.  In that case it is either used to control their women or due to the pressures of friends, acquaintances or restrictive governments.  Unfortunately there are stigmas in many religions.  That is including Christianity.  I say that even considering I am a devout Christian. >
  
  I dont care if its the men around her, the societal pressure, the law, the religion which is apparently an excuse for this form of modern slavery or the fact that she got brainwashed into thinking this is totally fine and she has to live that way since she was born up until she dies, it is dehumanising, humiliating and fucking oppression and I dont give a shit about this 1% of women who decided that they really want to wear it for whatever reason. >
  
  How do you suppose this is going to change the OP view? >
  
  Its not about "men wearing western clothes" next to their niqabi wifes, yes it is sexist and the main problem but I dont want men to wear it either (or to have to wear a beard or whatever) and then suddendly theres no problem/hypocracy if they do. Its a totalitarian regime that guarantees no freedom and that is the problem. >
  
  
  I’m not saying you can’t be a feminist and wear a burqa, niqab, or hijab.
  
  So, a female choosing how to live her own life is not "feminist"
  
  that it’s highly misogynistic
  
  Yet you are quite literally judging and labelling them for not wearing your approved clothing.
  ​
  Think about this one mate. >
  
  I’m sorry, you do realize this post also implies that specific clothing are enforced on women or worse, women being indoctrinated to think that that’s the norm? Op isn’t even judging women on what he/she defines as his/hers approved clothing, it’s litterally just a comparison to what men can wear but women cannot in the same country. 
  Either you’ve been living under a rock while women were being killed during the protests in Iran , or you’re just as brainwashed for thinking OP is referring to women who actually have a choice. 
  Do you have a choice? Think about that. >
  
  Yes. You do.
  Not every female on the planet lives in Iran. OP also did not say forced. His CMV quite literally does not mention that at all. >
  
  As long as she chooses to wear the Burkha then there’s no issue. >
  
  Brainwashing is a thing >
  
  Why is She automatically brainwashed? Maybe she made the decision to wear it on her own? >
  
  Who said anything about automatic brainwashing. They merely presented a counter argument for which you didn't present a convincing return