comment: >
  
  You’re assuming children are capable of looking at that offer and deciding if it is worth their time, which it is not.
context: /u/Cagedwar (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.
  All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
  Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
  ^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards >
  
  So you’re solution to high schoolers working to much is for them to keeping working just do it under the table so on paper their working less than 5 hours a week? >
  
  um.. what happens to teenagers forced to support themselves, who are now legally unable to do so? sounds like a surefire way to get desperate teenagers to do unsafe and illegal things for money. >
  
  Maybe I’m super ignorant but how many teenagers are able to support themselves and be in high school? No one can live off minimum wage- especially if you can’t work full time. >
  
  
  No one can live off minimum wage
  
  Lol, what do you mean? Tons of people live on minimum wage. >
  
  Without government assistance? >
  
  Yes. >
  
  Oh gotcha. Where I live in America minimum wage would land you under 18K which would secure you government assistance. And that’s assuming a high schooler can find a job that schedule allows them to work around a school schedule >
  
  I live in the US too, I don't qualify for government assistance for not being American, I lived on federal minimum wage for years, and now work with many people in that same situation. >
  
  Oh gotcha, good point I didn’t think about!
  !Delta >
  
  Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/ReligionOfPease (1∆).
  ^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards >
  
  
  We are only kids once and I hate the fact that so much of it is wasted working. Looking back, how many nights a week did you give up or weekends did you give up so that you could work? And make minimum wage.
  
  I gave up entire years of my life working. First raising my siblings and taking care of my mother and running her business, then as the siblings grew more independent working actual jobs to help pay bills and put food on the table. 
  
  I know a lot of people will say that poor families sometimes require the extra income, I don’t have a real rebuttal to that except how incredibly sad that is. But I may have a solution.
  
  This solution doesn't work. You only say to limit the hours I could have worked to five hours a week by law by official businesses. However, I rarely worked for an 'official business'. Most of what I outlined above was literal babysitting and doing things like mowing lawns and other forms of help that paid 'under the table'. Only when my younger siblings were old enough to mostly care for themselves did I get into any 'official business' and by then I was already seventeen/eighteen years old, so that 'limit me to five hours a week by law' wouldn't have helped at all. 
  All your solution does is say that instead of letting businesses exploit poor kids or kids in difficult situations and pay them only minimum wage, let's let private individuals and under-the-table businesses exploit them for often LESS than minimum wage with far less oversight and protection in the workplace than actual businesses can offer. 
  Your solution only makes it harder and more exploitative for kids and families in poverty. >
  
  I don’t know about you but businesses did a hell of a lot of exploiting when I was in school. They would work us pass curfew, not give breaks and treat us like shit. (Pizza Hut if you’re curious) But I was 16 and didn’t know any better. I am under the impression that everyone went through similar things. And when I did baby sitting and mowing lawns I controlled my own hours and got paid for more than minimum wage. Possible I just had bad/good experiences here.
  I am sorry you grew up in that situation. Where I grew up a lot of people were like that. And all our parents made us get jobs the second we turned 15/16 >
  
  High schoolers cost a lot of money. Not just in terms of food and shelter but in terms of activity and all that comes with that. Money for a vehicle, money to spend with friends, money to go here and there (not with their parents). A ton of kids if they aren’t able to work are going to be missing out on a ton of experiences that their more privileged classmates are able to partake in. 
  Also you’d be restricting the earning potential of one of the poorest decision-making demographics out there while simultaneously increasing the amount of time they have on their hands artificially. That combination could potentially lead to issues that could ultimately haunt a kid for the rest of his life.
  Edit: just to add if you were willing to work a reasonable amount of hours in HS plus summers and set that money aside and invested it, with compounding you’d be MILES ahead of most other people your age by the time they started saving at 25 or whenever. >
  
  !delta
  The gap it would create between poor and rich classmates is not something I thought about. I still think in an ideal world 5 hour cap would make sense, but we don’t live there. >
  
  Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/NoLeftTailDale (1∆).
  ^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards >
  
  
  I know a lot of people will say that poor families sometimes require theextra income, I don’t have a real rebuttal to that except howincredibly sad that is. But I may have a solution.
  
  I was in this boat from when I first started working around when I was 12/13 with Stepup. Both my parents are disabled so I have been paying the entirety of rent since then. I agree that companies will exploit children because I also used to work as a janitor when I was 16 and they would keep me past midnight on school days until I told them it was illegal due to curfew.
  I now work as a Software Engineer and thankfully make a comfortable living to be able to support my parents better. I don't wish working at a young age upon anyone but sometimes people in my situation require consistency. It is better to work at McDonalds (I did when I was 14) and get a consistent schedule/pay so I can pay rent than it is to mow lawns and hope I make enough otherwise my parents go homeless. The entire situation sucked but it was just the reality of the cards I was dealt.
  A lot of these corporations are also easily accessible by public transportation which was how I got to work back then. This would be more difficult if I had to go to different houses to mow lawns, I would have to hope for a bus or lightrail service to that area. >
  
  !delta
  I’m curious, if you could ensure that teenagers money didn’t go to parents/family, would you agree high schoolers shouldn’t work? >
  
  Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/SaturatedJuicestice (1∆).
  ^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards >
  
  Whats that after tax >
  
  In my state about 55 dollars. >
  
  If I had only been allowed to work 5 hours a week as a teenager I would most likely be dead by now. Please reconsider this view. >
  
  Why do you know better what these high schooler’s need than they do? >
  
  
  We are only kids once and I hate the fact that so much of it is wasted working. Looking back, how many nights a week did you give up or weekends did you give up so that you could work?
  
  In high school I worked a full day on Saturday plus one or two evenings per week for a total of 12-16 hours. It wasn't wasted, I enjoyed my job. I met and made friends at work. We had fun doing our job together. Most days I looked forward to going to work. I also enjoyed that it provided me income to fund other things I wanted to do.
  Without that job, I wouldn't have had a car. I have so many memories with friends and a boyfriend in that car and because of that car. Trips to the beach, to nearby cities, sneaking to my boyfriend's house in the middle of the night. 5 hours a week definitely wouldn't have paid for a car, gas, insurance.
  Without that job, I wouldn't have been able to save money to take a trip to New York City during spring break with a friend my senior year. That was an amazing trip. It also set a dream in motion that culminated in me moving to New York, which has had a hugely positive impact on my life.
  Without that job, I wouldn't have been able to sneak out to a gay youth support group in a town 30 miles away every week, which helped me come to terms with my homosexuality and saved me from a severe bout of depression.
  Without a job providing consistent income throughout the later years of high school, my high school experience would have been a lot shittier. The hours I spent working in high school weren't "wasted," nor do I feel I was giving anything up. I got a LOT out of the jobs and the income they provided.
  High schoolers are old enough to decide for themselves how many hours they want to work (my state capped it at 16 on school weeks anyway). 5 is very few hours and very little income.
  Also, the idea that time spent at work is "wasted" is a real shit perspective to instill in high schoolers because 1) they're likely looking at decades of work throughout their life, 2) it doesn't have to be and isn't for a lot of people, and 3) it's an unhealthy way to approach it. >
  
  !delta
  That’s awesome you had such a great experience! How would you feel about a 15 hour cap? (It sounds like your state had one) >
  
  I think my state struck a good balance. Those of legal working age but still in high school could work 16 hours/week during school weeks and 40 hours/week on non school weeks. 
  15 or 16 are both fine, but 16 fits better into the 8-hour-shift scheduling pattern that many businesses already have. >
  
  Hmm okay you’ve changed my mind. 15 is much more obtainable and realistic. I worked like 25 or someshit and looking back I think I wasted those years. But 16 hours is a couple nights a week and a weekend. >
  
  I had to drop out and start working at 14. If I was only allowed to work 4 hours a week we would've starved. We already had no cable, internet, hvac, and intermittent power & water. My meager earnings kept us afloat.
  Give us some socialized utilities, and higher wages. Then maybe I'll agree with you. >
  
  I mean I would make a post about socializing basic needs but I think that’s been done plenty of times.
  Either way you’re not a high schooler if you aren’t in high school. >
  
  Are kids not in HS no longer kids? You're moving the goal post a bit here. >
  
  I don’t mean to be tricky! I just mean if you drop out of school I wouldn’t consider you a high schooler which is my argument. 
  !delta that is a totally valid reason to need to work in high school/high school age >
  
  Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/DylanCO (3∆).
  ^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards >
  
  
  they can baby sit, mow lawns and other forms of not being hired by an official business.
  
  So you're okay with them making less money so long as they aren't working for an actual company? How does that change anything? >
  
  Maybe my life experience is different, but both of those things paid more than fastfood when I was in school >
  
  They're close if kids are making exactly minimum wage, but a lot of places are paying more than that now to attract workers. You also generally get discounts, raises, and even vacation time for working at a store whereas mowing lawns and babysitting are the dearest of dead end jobs. Most important though, they get reliable hours year-round. >
  
  I'm a high schooler who works 36 hours a week.
  I like working because it gives me money. I bought my own car, a multi thousand dollar gaming setup, and I have a decent savings pool.
  No one's forcing me to work. >
  
  Congrats on the grind. How do you find time to play games and exercise and do homework and socialize? Either war nice job >
  
  I don't, my life's shit. >
  
  I think this is my point >
  
  
  We are only kids once and I hate the fact that so much of it is wasted working.
  
  You deem it wasted, the high schooler that chose to do it probably doesn't. They have a right to do what works for them. (If they're in a position to chose it that is, I agree there's situations where they don't have an option, but that is not every case.) >
  
  I mean obviously, I’m deeming it wasted, and my post is saying as a society we should deem it as wasted. Just because a child wants to do something doesn’t mean we let them. 
  And again, if a high schooler really wants to earn money, there are a variety of ways outside of working at a traditional job. >
  
  
  Just because a child wants to do something doesn’t mean we let them. 
  
  Child or teenager? A job can be very valuable for a teenager (like I said, providing it's their choice). 
  
  there are a variety of ways outside of working at a traditional job.
  
  Like what? Working a job but just not calling it that? If a teenager wants to work a job (obviously a limited number of hours so it doesnt interfere with school etc) then they should be able to. It should be an option. If they don't want to that should be an option  too. >
  
  A child is under 18 as far as I’m concerned. (And the law)
  Do you consider mowing lawns to be a traditional job?  Baby sitting? Gig works in general >
  
  I enjoyed working as a teenager and having a lot of my own money. I hated mowing lawns and babysitting, but I enjoyed working in the diner I worked at in high school. Why should the government be able to prevent me from earning money if it’s not interfering with my education? >
  
  Same reason the government does lots of things. Because they deem it better for the person. (Or money lol)
  this suggests that working more than 20 hours lowers grades. Would you support a law that limits a students working hours to 15(ish)? >
  
  My family wasn't poor enough to need the funds from my high school job.  But I had to support myself after I turned 18, so I needed to work in high school to build up funds to prepare for that.  I much preferred the consistency of working for a business than the spotty babysitting jobs I could get.  My job allowed me to work full time over my breaks as well which I gladly agreed to. >
  
  Sorry but I like money and 50 bucks a week wont even cover a full tank of gas and a meal to go out >
  
  Fully disagree.
  I worked 20 hours a week in HS starting when I was 15 and proceeded to invest 95% of my take home income into a broad based index fund.
  Which then surprise I got kicked out of my home less than a month after turning 18
  But I wasn't worried because I had
  A. a job and ended enough skills not to make minimum wage 
  B. Over $30,000 >
  
  I worked as many hours as I could to get away from my abusive parents in high school. 
  They’d let me work but anything else was heavily controlled, no privacy, held against me, etc. It kept me sane and out of a bad environment. 
  Don’t base opinions based only on your very limited experience of the world. It’s not the universal experience. >
  
  Let me push back gently. I knew abusive parents that only let their kid play school sports and attend school events and not work. Aren’t there millions of people in similar situations, we could argue there should be after school programs etc >
  
  The bottom line is that you’re deciding  that high school kids have no need to work past what you deem necessary. Several ppl have explained why that’s not reasonable. 
  For my case, my parents wouldn’t let me participate in after school things bc of the financial and time costs to them- so I’m still in the same position I stated in my original comment. 
  There are a MILLION reasons that this isn’t a good idea but you refuse to see any of them as valid that require you to admit you are wrong. 
  You’re not here to have your view changed. 
  After school activities do NOTHING for ppl like me, ppl who’s family lives in abject poverty, ppl with disabled parents, ppl without transportation, etc, etc, etc. >
  
  Lol I have admitted to multiple people that they made good points and said they changed my mind. If your feelings get hurt because I don’t agree with your points, maybe you’re in the wrong sub.
  I’m not going to address the topic with you further if you’re going to continue to be upset. I would not find that a morally good thing of me to do. >
  
  My kid is a senior and only has 2-3 classes each day. He’s home by noon. 
  Zero reason he shouldn’t/couldn’t work 20+ hours a week. >
  
  Wow! Is this common in your country? >
  
  In the US? Yes. >
  
  Well things have changed I guess! Or at least it’s different in my state. But in your case I agree! High school for those students isn’t even full time then. Lol
  !delta >
  
  Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Tedstor (4∆).
  ^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards >
  
  What is truly being asked here is whether or not a teenager should be able to have job protections such as minimum wage and an HR to report to. Teens are going to work regardless. Whether they do it on their own or their parents force them to by withdrawing support, what you are suggesting is to leave these kids with nobody accountable to work for, as the only people willing to hire for a sustainable job would be actively taking advantage already. >
  
  This thread has taught me is that I think I had 2 really awful high school jobs.
  Those jobs I saw literal sexual assault ignored by management, teenagers not given breaks, worked way past agreed upon hours, creepy adult men prey on high school girls, and rampant drug abuse by adults around children. (Not to mention managers yelling at students) 
  From what I’ve seen online and peers in my life my experience is not rare. I thought it was a given in these shitty fastfood jobs.
  I think limiting teens exposure to all this is ideal, yes. >
  
  There are legal avenues to report all of these things, and reports are taken way more seriously that they used to, but not if you take away the oversight. I'm saying if that kid was illegally hired, there isn't even a paper trail if that kid were to disappear. >
  
  I worked my ass off in high school. No regrets. I made money and learned a lot of skills that helped me later in life.  Probably kept me out of trouble too since I had something constructive to focus on. >
  
  Can I ask what you did as a job? >
  
  Restaurant work. Started as a dishwasher — waiter, line cook, and managed the kitchen. Had a fairly lazy owner who was happy to pay a kid to run things if I could prove myself. Learned a lot about people, handling difficult customers, inventory management, staff scheduling, opening/closing/prep, and became a pretty good cook in the process. Made decent money that gave me the freedom to have fun when I wasn’t working and entertain some hobbies before college. >
  
  I made another comment about my personal situation but this one is completely different so I thought a new comment would be best. 
  I have a daughter with severe special needs. She has alexia and will never read. She’s 19 now. 
  She started working at 14 bc it was necessary for her future success. She needed the experience to learn how to navigate working without being able to read. She worked a few jobs and learned SO much about what type of job would work and what type wouldn’t, how to navigate working with a severe disability, how to advocate for herself in the workplace for appropriate accommodations, who to trust with her info and who not to- just SO many things. 
  She needed to work more than 5 hours a week to be able to do that. 
  Several months before she graduated she was able to transition to a full time job making $48k/yr. None of that would have been possible for her without the ability to start the process young and work hard at it. 
  If she hadn’t had that opportunity, she’d be so far behind right now. She deserves the same opportunities as the rest of us, she just has to work a million times harder and longer than us to get them. >
  
  !delta
  If you knew my life story you would laugh. Very similar situations and I now am probably someone she would have worked with at some point. I work in transition at a middle school! >
  
  We live in a very poor rural area that spends the least per student in the entire state so they didn’t have the resources for her. They don’t even have a transition team or anything. 
  So I homeschooled her from half way through K to graduation. We paid for everything we trialed and tried but it was easier than fighting the school to bring someone in to do an assistive tech eval, get an iPad, try this reading curriculum or that reading curriculum, upping her speech & OT therapy time, etc. I just couldn’t see spending my energy and resources on fighting them when I could spend both on fighting FOR her. 
  I realized early on that her mental energy would be best spent on teaching her 1. how to google what info she needed and 2. how to survive in a way that didn’t include living off disability. 
  Don’t get me wrong- plenty of time was spent on academics but only the important stuff. She didn’t do calculus or anything (she also has dyscalculia) but that’s ok- she’s 19 and making almost $50K/yr. I think she’ll be fine without it. 
  I wish all students with disabilities has access to ppl like you but the opportunities are SO hit or miss and disproportionately concentrated on more wealthy areas in my state. My state doesn’t pool tax money for schools, it comes directly from your local tax base and our small town has a median income of $27k/yr. They could raise taxes for the school but it would just throw ppl into homelessness when they lost their house to back taxes. 
  Work hard for those kids! You honestly might be the only person that does! >
  
  Yeah for sure! You’re a great parent! Awesome reading everything you did.
  But also so heart breaking. It’s awful. I am in a wealthy area and make very poor money. Schools in poor areas pau even less if any at all. >
  
  I worked my butt off in high school as a poor kid and wouldn't change a thing.
  I was able to buy a cool car at a time when my father couldn't afford to buy me any car at all and kids who were better off had cool vehicles bought for them by their parents.
  My buddies and I worked hard and were able to support an active social life with cars, dating and clothes, making our high school years enjoyable, which would have been impossible had some well meaning folks out there have decided that we poor kids were being exploited. We didn't see it that way; we were absolutely tickled. >
  
  This post is a one size fits all and the concept is oozing control freak. Why should you be the arbiter of HS work experiences? 
  Personally, I loved my job and worked with my friends. I also was able to earn money, which gave me a bit of financial independence that made my teenage years enjoyable. I don’t have any regrets or feelings of missing out on anything because I worked. If anything, I gained a ton of life experience and it gave me a solid work ethic that has paid dividends later in life. >
  
  I know you have good intentions but you obviously either haven't been a teenager in a long time or you had a pretty cushy life growing up. Less than 40 dollars a week won't pay for gas nowadays. Also you're not thinking about insurance, gas to get to friends houses, the park, or a fast food place. You're also not thinking about going places with friends to eat or hang out. >
  
  Grew up in an orphanage and didn’t have the option to work.
  Then got adopted and found the working conditions fine. Looking bad at high school, I don’t think they were fine. But I’m finding many people talking about good jobs so maybe I was unlucky >
  
  I don't think you were unlucky. It's just people have different definitions of what are fine conditions. Many people complain about having to work overtime but me personally I love overtime. And since teenagers still work even if they are working in bad conditions then it means they want money more than they want an easy time. >
  
  I explained in another comment. I saw sexual assault, adult men prey on high school girls, managers yelling at people, high schoolers being sent home at midnight, etc. 
  I don’t find these acceptable. But I especially don’t consider a high schooler capable of deciding to subject themselves to that >
  
  The first 2 are bad and shouldn't happen but the last 2 happen to everyone. What exactly is wrong with being yelled at? And if they don't want to work until midnight they don't have to since they can quite at any time. And you say high schoolers aren't able to decide but what age do you cut it off? Most people turn 18 their senior year and are adults. And even if they aren't an adult you do realizing if you keep them from working until they are 18 or out of school that will encourage plenty of people to quite school early. Why go to school for a few years just so you can work if you can just work a couple years earlier and earn thousands of dollars. >
  
  Have you had a job outside of fastfood and retail? They don’t scream at you. They also have a schedule. But that’s besides the point. Highschoolers are not adults. They cannot make informed choices like “oh I shouldn’t work so late” etc.
  Sure, we can say 18 year olds can begin to work like normal if that’s the big hang up >
  
  I have never worked in fastfood or retail. If you mess up you get yelled at. Simple as that. But do you really think an 18 year old will no work experience will be someone a good work place will want? People with no experience and no skills work crappy jobs to get that experience. And this is an honest question, what's bad about being yelled at? >
  
  Can I ask what job you have? Never in the professional world have I seen yelling, and if I did I’d walk out. 
  Tbh yes. There are plenty of people who don’t work and then get hired lol. Anyway, it is a silly hypothetical because college jobs also don’t care about your experience. And even sillier, in this hypothetical all 18 year olds would not have experience
  Edit: and it’s wrong because it’s wrong. The same reason your boss insulting you is wrong. >
  
  Currently I work for the public works department in my town. And where I work there isn't much yelling. But why do you dislike yelling so much? I'm struggling to understand why it upsets you. Did nobody ever yell at you as a kid when you did something wrong? Also even if the country were to pass a law saying it's illegal to work if your under 18 it would still be up to the state to abide by that law. For example pot is legal federally and in lots of states but not all. And if people didn't care about experience then resumes wouldn't be needed. People would much rather hire someone with experience than someone without. And in lots of jobs it's a requirement to have previous work experience in that or similar fields of work. >
  
  Lol I’m not going to debate you that yelling at people is immoral. Go yell at someone in public the next time they mess up and see how people treat you.
  Also why does everyone assume just because I don’t want kids treated poorly means I never went through shit? 
  Lol is your argument really legislative? 
  I mean this in the nicest way possible. Public city works probably would have hired you with no work experience. Almost all low level jobs will. >
  
  
  Looking back, how many nights a week did you give up or weekends did you give up so that you could work? And make minimum wage.
  
  Quite a few, but they all paid off. I would do it again over and over again. 
  
  High schoolers make minimum wage, which is hardly anything of value.
  
  The bigger value in these jobs is not in the wage, it's in the experience of having a job and dealing with other people in a workplace setting. However, the wage is still a factor. 
  
  This would also stop the exploitation of youth by Walmart, McDonald’s, Burger King etc. If high schoolers really want/need cash, they can baby sit, mow lawns and other forms of not being hired by an official business.
  
  Businesses aren't exploiting children, they're putting an offer to the marketplace and people are accepting the offer. The average age of a McDonalds employee is 20 years old. A 20 year old can make minimum wage and will accept that minimum wage job over a harder job because of their age and lifestyle. If minimum wage was not enough for most children, children would not accept the offer and would complete harder tasks to make more money.