>

Never waste a good opportunity to squeeze someone when you have the chance, eh Erdo? Fuckin' demagogue.
That guy is a pain in the arse >

Damn that Turkey has to be located where it's an important piece of geography. >

Turkey is a fine country with fine people, their leader though 🥴 >

that can be said... for a lot of countries >

Iran and Russia come to mind >

Ahh I don't know about that. Have you seen any of the videos asking regular Russians about the war? I've seen quite a few of them and they're honestly disturbing. They'll say things like they hope everyone in the west dies via their nukes, or Ukrainians aren't even human so the war/war crimes don't matter, and so on. I know there are good Russians too, they're in the videos as well. But it's overwhelmingly hateful in general.  
"Well that's because of how their government has treated them terribly and fed them disinformation for decades+" Yeah, maybe. But it doesn't change the harsh reality of things >

All the good ones are in Russian gulags by now >

Well, and abroad. The Russian diaspora is growing quite large. >

Plenty Russians abroad that are drinking the Putin Kool-Aid too. I used to have a few on FB. Obviously I'd be anti-Russian, they said, because I'm Polish so I believe all the propaganda against them. These guys are knee deep in the bullshit, as they live in a western country and enjoy all the freedoms and benefits we have to offer here. >

By all means, if they love the current state of Russia, they have all of the freedom in the world to go back. Can't guarantee they'd be able to change their minds once they're there. >

Can't wait when Putin and Erdogan die >

There will always be another despot wanting to rise - even in long-established democracies like the US.  Strong and enforced rules preventing this kind of thing are essential to long-term peace globally. >

Yea but you need the fuckung despots to be dead so you can get people in power who can establish such rules. Otherwise the same despots will establish their own. >

Thus forever repeating. So it goes >

Turkey is going to milk this as long as possible.  Erdogan is such an evil bastard. >

And Trump kowtowed to him and we let our Kurdish allies die as a result.
Edit: typo >

Trump committed the war crime of perfidy on that day.  Another horrible crime he got away with because there is no justice when rich people break the law. >

We in Sweden believe in democracy and the separation of government and the courts. We will not sacrifice our democracy for Erdogan. If our politicians had any balls they would simply say no to Erdogan and tell the world how a proper democracy works. >

Personally I find trading Turkey for Sweden plus Finland a very good deal. The only value Turkey gives to the alliance is control of access to the Black Sea under the Montereaux Convention. Unfortunately, there’s no mechanism to boot them from the alliance. >

Hopefully the people behind the scenes don't give Erdogan too much to make the deal to go through. Sounds like he's stalling for concessions. Having Finland and Sweden in NATO is fundamental to what NATO is all about. Control of the Blatic, support to the Baltic states if the Suwalki corridor is even taken, and NATO forces bottlenecking the Kola peninsula. Plus, there's Finland's experience with Russia and Sweden is experienced in developing modern weapons. Anyone trying to stop that from happening goes against the core concept of NATO. >

The only reason NATO accepted Turkey into its ranks is because they served a strategic geographic role in being the only pro-West country (at the time) to have a geographic border with Russia. 
For Turkey, the reason (at the time) they submitted their bid to join NATO was because they were under threat of Soviet invasion. The West graced them will full membership instead of "defensive cooperation" was because they supplied troops to fight with the West during the Korean War, and again, served strategic geographic importance. The U.S. would go on to house their nukes in Turkey to keep pointed right at Moscow. >

They were also a weak (but strengthening) democracy at the time. 
It was thought that membership would stabilize and strengthen the institutions, like with the Greeks that were simultaneously admitted. 
The same thing happened with Portugal and Spain too. >

To be fair, they were making a best effort attempt.  Hell, they even had a tradition of, whenever the politicians were fucking things up too much, the military staging a coup, calming things down, and then holding new elections and abiding by the results.
It's one of the reasons it's plausible that the coup attempt against Erdogan might have been legit, and not just something he made up in order to launch a purge. >

I consider the attempted coup the military doing what Atatürk intended, restoring democracy. 
But they failed, so we’ll never know what their plans exactly were. >

how longer til election? it was may 23 rite? >

Gonna be hard to lose when he just jails political rivals, though. >

Came here to say that Imamoğlu is not actually physically in jail, his sentence isn’t large enough for that. For now, it is(in my opinion) failed attempt at a political ban which just caused the public to like him more >

Would a condemnation prevent him from holding office, though? >

Not exactly. Erdogan also got a similar political ban before he ran. >

Interesting, so after circumventing this exact situation, he was hoping it would stop his adversary. This guy... >

Yeah he isn’t really the brightest. History repeats itself >

If anyone knows what it means to be in the North Atlantic treaty org... it would be the nation farthest from the Atlantic, I suppose... >

Japan? /s >

Japan in NATO would be so amazing... I'm glad they're at least a major ally. >

I don’t think Japan meets the requirements to be in NATO since there are military obligations that the SDF wouldn’t be able to fulfill. >


I don’t think Japan meets the requirements to be in NATO since there are military obligations that the SDF wouldn’t be able to fulfill.

Japan wouldn't benefit from the NATO charter without amending it, it only covers North America, The Atlantic, and Europe.

Article 6
For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:
on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France 2, on the territory of Turkey or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;
on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer >

Would an attack on Puerto Rico or Hawaii be covered by this? Both are south of the Tropic of Cancer, so it just depends on if they are “north America” or not? >

I do not think so. For the Falkland Islands, UK couldn’t activate Article 5 either >

The falklands are undeniably not North America though. But Hawaii and Puerto Rico may have some debate. >

USA kinda funds most of NATO so Hawaii prob counts, same for Puerto rico >

Is it sacrificing Kurds to Turkey? I bet it's sacrificing Kurds to Turkey. >

The Swedish Supreme Court recently blocked an extradition Turkey wanted.
I don't think Erdogan understands the concept of separation of powers in a democracy. 
There isn't anything the Swedish government can do to reverse a supreme court decision. >

This is it exactly. They simply can't get it through their heads that the Swedish government can't just do what they want. >

The swedish government could do what they want, it would just require them to change and to seek a style of thinking that's in line with Erdogans tyranny. >

Which would be checked by our system of governance. >

It would be an attempt, not a certainty. >

Translation: We still think that we can get bigger bribes. >

Mustache wax fund >

no one else seems to think so... >

Basically Erdogan wants Sweden to look the other way on his fascist ways in Turkey. But that includes handing people that Sweden sheltered from Turkey over to be tortured/killed. As well as removing sanctions, and letting Turkey buy weapons. Fuck Erdogan. Not sure of the geopolitical ramifications, but as long as he's leading Turkey, I'd much rather have Sweden and Finland than it. >

Swap Turkey and Hungary for Finland and Sweden. >

Russia is one of Turkey's main trading partners. >

Turkey is by no means an ally of Russia. Just look at what's happening in Syria, they are not friends
Turkey is a wildcard and tends to play fast and loose with all sides but this is not them trying to cozy up to Russia.
It's them trying to use a once in a generation leverage on a nation that tends to support those that they consider terrorist.
It's a very complicated issue, Sweden doesn't want to extradite people that it has offered political asylum to but Turkey doesn't want to sign off on a military alliance with a country that won't extradite people it has convicted of an attempted coup.
Obviously the 2016 coup was shady and Sweden had its reasons for offering asylum. But this is where we're at politically and someone has to blink first, and Turkey has all the time in the world >

There's also a slight problem since Swedish politicians can't, however much they'd like to, just extradite people. They tried, the courts wouldn't allow it. Turkey can't understand how the "rulers" in Sweden can't just dictate what they want. >

Yeah it's a really complicated situation. You're absolutely right to mention the protections those that have received asylum have under Swedish law as that is a big part of why it's such a stalemate >

I only have a very surface level understanding of this, but you would think Sweden would have some constitutional mechanism for voting to alter the law or constitution (whatever is holding this up really) to allow for whatever blood price the Turks want narrowly scoped to this specific use-case?  Like a constitutional amendment that is the equivalent of “John Smith, born 2/7/1978 can be extradited to Turkey.  This supersedes all established Constitutional clauses and laws with regard to this one individual.  We hate it, but we had to do it to join NATO.”  Like there seems like there should be some legal way to get this done and if it isn’t, then it’s because it’s a political stinker. >


but you would think Sweden would have some constitutional mechanism for voting to alter the law or constitution

Yes. The riksdag has to vote on a change, then there needs to be a general election which allows the people to vote according to what they think about the amendment, and then the new (or same) riksdag has to vote yes again. This naturally takes many years in most cases.
I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think the laws in question are in the constitution of Sweden (I might be wrong here).
What people don't seem to realize is that Sweden has extradited people to Turkey both pre and post NATO application. Turkey just needs to show proof that the crime is not political, and some other disqualifying reasons. Being a terrorist would not disqualify extradition as long as the court believes Turkey would respect their human rights. >

Time to withdraw our application and develop nukes for our own safety. I don't see Erdogan stopping. >

But the president of Turkey isn’t upholding any sort of democracy in his own country? Right >

"Sweden had not broken international laws and America hasnt licked Erdogans balls enough yet so we will continue to be Russias puppet and a tumour in the ass for everyone" -Turkey (like the bird) >

You are Uncle Sam's puppets. Most of the EU countries didn't even have proper army till Russian invasion. They began to develop and modernize their armies. Without army you can't be totally independent. For example, everyone awares Nord Stream 2 pipeline wasn't sabotaged by Russia. (basically Germany's will was captured). But your politicians can't talk about it. Your media can't report it. You have to obey Uncle Sam.
Most of the problems we have started in 1980 coup. Greece had left NATO and our government hadn't been approving them to come back. After coup their first job was approving Greece in. And US had another plan. "Green generation" The muslim Turks will fight against atheist communists or at least won't let communism rise in Turkey. Their 2nd job was opening religous high-schools. Students were graduated in those schools became judges, polices, soldiers, politicians and organized under name of Gulen (living in Pennsylvania, US). We could recover from it if we were clever enough.
In the end Sweden will join NATO sooner or later. But one day Swedish people will understand when their politicans are prisoned by their own soldiers they made a mistake. >

Turkey still has requirements to meet to join the rest of us in modernity. 
Like getting rid of their yee yee ass president. >

My wife is Armenian so I already have a biased stance with Turkey...this always reinforces my poor opinion of that country. 
*I know not all Turkish are Armenian genocide deniers, however it is my experience that most are. >

They don't realize that Europe pushed several genocides under the rug... >

I know, Europeans are the biggest hypocrites >

Oh my Christ, somebody throw this man into the ocean already. He's such a cunt. >

At what point do we start standing up for our values? At what price do we trade strategic security for our ideals >

How hilarious. The one nation in NATO that never met the qualifications for NATO membership is telling others they aren't qualified. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. What a fucking trip. >

Isn't Turkey the second largest army in NATO? >

In desert storm, Iraq had the 4th largest army in the world. The US had the 5th. The number of people you can put in uniform is not a really good measure of a country's ability to fight. >

Just take a look at Ukraine v Russia. Russias headcount was 5 times that of Ukraine. Headcount is a useless metric. >

I wouldn't say useless. I'd rather say it can be a minor component of the equation, especially with high tech warfare. It might have been a big deal when the Romans still reigned supreme, but it isn't now. Remember, China overran US positions in Korea with pitchforks, Russia won at the battle of Stalingrad with waves of cannon fodder. >

He just jailed/indicted the main opposition figure who would have won against him in the election (if the election were free to begin with).
The Putin play IOW.
Can't have any challengers if all your challengers cannot run against you because of fabricated charges.
knocks on head >

Erdogan is just going to keep blackmailing. Why not kick Turkey out of NATO if they love Russia so much? Let them fend for themselves. >

These are NATO's own rules...It's not a case of blackmail, it's just politics. >

This is not politics.  Turkiye is taking unfair advantage of this NATO consensus requirement. This is corruption. Membership should not be for sale. >


taking unfair advantage

This is exactly what we call 'politics'. NATO membership is 'not for sale', it only comes with the unanimous approval of ALL members. >

I think you have a corrupt way of thinking about politics. >

Corrupt? More like realistic. >

Erdogan: "I'm playing both sides so that I always come out on top."
NATO: "Why would you tell me you are playing both sides?"